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Proteomics/Protein Separations - Chromatography/Ultra High Performance Liquid Chromatography

Ultra High Performance Liquid Chromatography
High performance liquid chromatography has proven itself to very useful in many scientific fields, yet forces scientists to consistently choose between speed and resolution. Ultra performance liquid chromatography (UPLC*) eliminates the need to choose and creates a highly efficient method that is primarily based on small particle separations.

Ultra high pressure liquid chromatography, also known as ultra HPLC (UPLC), is a form of column chromatography used to separate, identify, and quantify compounds. It allows for separation and analysis of small particles both quickly and effectively. Liquid Chromatography is the process of passing a mixture of particles to be separated through a column. This allows the analyte, which was separated from the mixture, to be measured from other molecules. The columns are filled with a packing material, known as the stationary phase. In UPLC a pump pushes the mixture, known as the mobile phase, through the columns. As the mobile phase is passing through the stationary phase a detector shows the retention times of the different molecules. Retention time varies depending on the interactions between the stationary phase, the molecules being analyzed, and the solvent used.

The theory behind the development of UPLC is the van Deemter equation. The van Deemter equation is an empirical formula that shows the relationship between linear velocity, also known as flow rate, and plate height, also known as column efficiency. Since particle size is one of the variables of the van Deemter equation, the curve generated can be used to investigate chromatographic performance. As the particle size decreases to less than 2.5 μm, there is a significant gain in efficiency even when flow rates are increased or when linear velocities are increased.

Besides efficiency, the advantage of working with small particles is the fact that small particles can work at higher linear velocities. This allows for increases resolution and speed. Resolution is proportional to the square root of N, which is inversely related to both particle size and peak width. Peak width is inversely related to peak height. This means that the use of smaller particles will allow for narrower, taller peaks; greater resolution. It is also important to note that as particle size decreases the optimum flow increases. However, pressure is proportional to flow rate so smaller particles will require higher energy or pressure.

Current HPLC technology could not suffice for the new pressures associated with UPLC; a new system was designed by Waters called ACQUITY UPLC. Waters ACQUITY Ultra Performance LC systems have been developed to take into account all the advantages that small particle separations currently have over HPLC. This task was not easy. A new hybrid material was invented for the columns called Bridged Ethyl Hybrid (BEH). Also the columns needed a smoother interior surface. ACQUITY UPLC BEH columns also include microchip technology that captures the manufacturing information for each column, including the quality control tests and certificates of analysis called eCord™. The eCord database is also updated with real time method information, such as the number of injections, or pressure and temperature information, to maintain a complete continuous column history.

Many of these advantages are primarily based on the theories behind liquid chromatography. In general, increasing the efficiency of a separation will also increase its resolution. Since both efficiency and optimum flow rate are inversely proportional to particle size, a decrease in the particle size will increase efficiency and speed up the flow rate.

In the ACQUITY system, the particle size is decreased to 1.7 um compared to 3.5 um or 5 um. The particles were specifically designed to withstand wide ranges of pressure and pH, have a high load capacity, and improve efficiency. Other innovations to the chromatography method include a high pressure solvent delivery system, to take into account the smaller particle size, fast injection cycle sample management, and specialized detectors with fiber optic flow cell design.

 * UPLC is a term trademarked by the WATERS corporation. Elsewhere, the technique is generally referred to as Ultra High Performance Liquid Chromatography (uHPLC).

uHPLC vs HPLC
A comparison between Ultra High Performance Liquid Chromatography and High Performance Liquid Chromatography is shown in the table below:

The lower bead size is the true reason for uHPLC increased flow rate and resolution. This can be shown mathematically using deemter's equation: H = A + B/µ + Cµ. H being the plate height and µ being the particle size. The A constant remains constant independent of flow rate (it is referred to as the 'Eddy diffusion term'). The B constant is the diffusion coefficient, and C is the "analyte mass transfer" coefficient. As µ decreases, the A and C values of needed for a similar H value decrease, allowing for higher resolution. This also reduces the effect of the C value on the H value,  yielding faster separations for similar resolutions. Note uHPLC out classes HPLC in all aspects, and is expected to replace HPLC in the near future.

Previous Page

Resources

 * 1) Waters - Ultra Performance Liquid Chromatography
 * 2) Waters - UPLC New Boundaries For The Chromatography Laboratory
 * 3) ISCO - UHPLC System Configuration


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User talk:DeniseW

Hello, and welcome to Wikibooks!

Here are some tips to help you get started:
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You will find more resources in Community Portal. If you want to ask a question, visit the Study help desk, the Staff lounge, IRC channel or ask me personally on my talk page. For site news, see the Bulletin board. It might be a good idea to add this page to your "watchlist" so that you can see when any new information is posted there. You can do that by clicking the tab labeled "watch" at the top of the page.

Good luck! -- Herby talk thyme 07:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding edits made during April 11 2007
Thanks for experimenting with Wikibooks. Your test worked, and has now been removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing material in modules will normally be removed quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our project. Thanks. Az1568(Talk) 15:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Robert M. Gagne
Hi - this page you have created is not strictly within Wikibooks policies. firstly Wikibooks is for textbooks (and this looks more like (Wikipedia material). Secondly the page - if it is appropriate - should be a cub page of a text book.  Could you address this please - thanks -- Herby  talk thyme 07:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You got it right! Let me know if I can help - regards -- Herby  talk thyme 06:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

An invitation of a Wikibook study
Hi DeniseW, I'm a doctoral student at Indiana University. I'm currently working on a Wikibook study about online authors' experiences and perceptions with my advisor. I read your wikibook of Instructional Technology. It's very impressive. We would like to learn more from your experience. If you would like to participate in the case study, please contact me by email (cl17@indiana.edu) or leave a message. We'll discuss the detailed information about the study. (The format will be a one hour interview by phone or email.) Your input will be greatly appreciated. Best regards, inkeys

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:DeniseW


text:
MediaWiki:Noimage

No file by this name exists, you can $1. For more information, please see the file's [ log].

title: MediaWiki:Noimage


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Biblical Studies/New Testament Commentaries/The Gospel of John/Chapter 18

Chapters 18-19 chapters including Jesus' death are called Passion Narratives. They describe Jesus' Passion or suffering. "The term suits the Synoptics better than John, where Jesus scarcely suffers anguish or pain," (Smith 322).

Historically, who would be concerned that Jesus be apprehended? John 18:3 states, "So Judas brought a detachment of soldiers together with police from the chief priests and the Pharisees, and they came there with lanterns and torches and weapons." Later on in this same chapter the narrator of John states that, Caiaphas, "the high priest that year...was the one who had advised the Jews that it was better to have one person die for the people." The Gospel of John seems to imply that it was the high priests that were interested in apprehending Jesus. However, historically, there seems to be something wrong with this. After all, while all the gospels seem to agree that Jesus was clashing with the Pharisees, there is no reason that high priests would be interested in apprehending Jesus just because of that. Plus, it would make more sense that the Jews would wait to deal with Jesus after the Passover was over, yet in the Gospel of John, Jesus' death occurs during Passover. Then, why was Jesus apprehended by the Jewish leaders? While high priests during Jesus' time were the highest representatives of Jewish self-government, they were ultimately ruled by the Romans. The Romans would keep high priests "in line" by holding onto their priestly garments. Therefore, the Jews were not really "self-governed." Therefore, it makes sense that the Romans would have been interested in apprehending Jesus. In order to understand the Romans' motives for doing this, the story of John the Baptist can be used: John the Baptist was apparently put to death for criticizing Herod; however, Josephus, a "1st century Jewish historian," (Wikipedia) seemed to believe that the actual reason was that John the Baptist was gathering crowds that were willing to fight or die for John the Baptist's cause. The Romans were most likely aware that they had to put the root of the crowd issue, John the Baptist, to death in order to maintain order. This is a similar situation to Jesus'. The Romans probably wanted to apprehend Jesus because they were attempting to preserve their own views about God and maintain order in their kingdom. If this is true, then why was Jesus brought to Caiaphas? Most likely, the Jews handed Jesus over to Roman hands to overt bloodshed; in other words, they wanted to give Jesus to the Romans before the Romans sent in their own troops and killed many people. This is why the line, "it was better to have one person die for the people" makes sense in historical terms. Questions for clarification: In verses 15 and 16, who is the 'other disciple'? Why does the servant-girl question Peter, by asking, 'You are not one of this man's disciples too, are you?" and does not question and include the 'other disciple'? Does she know him, this 'other disciple'?

Pilate, Christ, and Prophecy in John 18 In verses 28-40, Christ converses with Pilate about His fate. This is an interesting juncture for many reasons, but I wish to focus on the motives of Pilate. Moments such as this are realizations of earlier prophecies that have a predetermined destination. In this case, that destination is the death of Christ and the creation of the Christian variety of salvation through faith. The question I'm wrestling with, though, is how much leeway Pilate had in his actions. Do you believe he could have released Christ, or was he bound by the "will of God"? And, if one believes that Pilate's will was completely overridden by God's will, then how does that gel with the notion of free will? There are specific points (ironically, the most influential points in Christian history) that are ascribed these "will of God" characteristics, in which man's will is eclipsed. Does the notion of free will, then, by its absence in the most important moments in Christian history, lose its integrity?

Jesus is very careful in his answers to Pilate's questions. Verses 33-40 show Pilate seemingly trying to catch Jesus in a tricky place. Jesus would have been accused of treason if he had answered "yes" to the question, "Are you the king of the Jews?". Though he does not say it in that many words, he lets Pilate know that, regardless what Pilate calls it, Jesus is on the earth to point out the truth. If Pilate wants to label that as "King of the Jews," he may. This keeps Jesus from the treason accusation: in explaining that his kingdom is not within the realm of Roman politics, Jesus cannot be accused of crimes against Rome.

Peter's Denial of Christ Peter, a beloved disciple of Christ fulfills Christ's prophesy in chapter 18. Previously in chapter 13 Jesus answers Peter's profession of laying down his life for Him saying "Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, Truly, I say to you, a cock shall not crow, until you deny Me three times." (NAS)At first, Peter's character is strong and he seems to have a true passion and belief in Christ. Then as time goes by, this strong character turns into Peter believing he is indestructible as he strikes the high priest's slave and cuts off his right ear. However, this strong willed and overly confident follower begins to lag behind and does not enter into the court of the high priest. ( v.15) Here is where Peter begins to deny Christ. First in verse 17 a slave-girl asks Peter if He is a follower, he replies "I am not." (NAS) Then, while the man he has followed for the past three years is in questioning, Peter goes to warm himself at the fire the slave and officers had built. They ask again, "You are not also one of His disciples, are you?" and Peter replies "I am not." (NAS, v. 18) However, one of the slaves knew that Peter was in the garden with Jesus and questions him again, and just as Christ prophesied, Peter denied Him the third time. (v.27) The cock then immediately crowed just as Jesus had said in chapter 13. What is interesting about this in John is that the cock only crows once in this book. In addition to that, only one of the synoptic gospels (Mark) writes it down as the crock crowing twice. With that said, the rest of the gospels mirror John very well in this chapter. The language of Peter in these denials is very interesting as well. Some see his answers “I am not” signifies a deeper opposition to Christ. Being that “I am” is a widely used phrase by Christ and is sometimes known as the “divine name.” This name is seen even in chapter 18, when Judas and his detachment of soldiers come to arrest Jesus. This name is so powerful that, as soon as Jesus identified himself as "I Am," the soldiers fell away from him. Another interesting fact, lies in Jesus' foreknowledge of Peter's denial. Does Peter have control over his own actions? Do those involved have control over their actions? This once again (a common theme and question in the gospel of John) raises questions about self-determination and the legitimacy of free-will. Peter's three denials also have a significance in biblical numerology. The number three is often used to represent the trinity. Jesus also asks Peter "do you love me?" three times to mirror his betrayals.

The Other Disciple

Along with the uniquely Johannine character of "the Beloved disciple" is this "other disciple" found in verse 15 of chapter 18, "Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Because this disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Jesus into the high priest's courtyard". Many have postulated that this mysterious figure might in fact be the beloved disciple found elsewhere in John, however, in his commentary on John, D. Moody Smith points out that is somewhat strange that if this is intended to be the same individual why does John not simply say so? The fact that the disciple is known to the high priest may suggest that he was a native of Jerusalem, and since the beloved disciple appears only in Jerusalem in John's narrative it is not implausible that they are the same person. Smith also points out that some have tried to identify this figure with the gospel writer himself, and though John of Zebedee, often attributed with writing this gospel, was a fisherman, it was not impossible that he may have been known to the high priest through a business relationship.

John 18:1-11 John tells the passion story in a unique way. It begins with the betrayal of Jesus by Judas, a brutal arrest of an innocent man, and the abuse of power by armed guards. But there is another way of interpreting this story—Jesus freely chose to place himself before his enemies because of his immense authority of his sacred person. Jesus is in control even at the moment of his arrest. Jesus will freely and willingly "drink the cup" of the passion because in so doing he fulfills his duty of revealing God's love for the world.

John's passion story: the tragedy of cruel death is overwhelmed by the power of redemptive love. For John, Jesus is the Word made flesh, sent to reveal the abiding love of God for the world. The most compelling statement of that love is, ironically, the death of Jesus. In giving his life "for his friends" (15:13), Jesus reveals God's overwhelming love for the world. From the perspective of faith, the death of Jesus is a word of life (D. Senior, 2007).

Some Differences (in the beginning) between John and the Synoptics

When reading all the different accounts of the Passion narrative, there are quite a few differences that can be pointed out between them. For one, in John it says that Jesus and the disciples went out across the Kidron Valley to a nameless garden where within minutes they met Judas and the betrayal began. In the synoptics the garden is named Gethsemane and it is here that Jesus prays first and then finds his disciples asleep. In John he has prayed before they ever reached the garden. Another difference is the kiss. In John there is no kiss and Jesus, as stated earlier hands himself over almost freely. In the synoptics, Judas betrays him with a kiss. Thes are just a few of the many differences between all the accounts of the Passion narratives in the gospels.


text:
Japanese/Lessons/Introduction/Lesson 1/Unit 1-4/Answers

Drill 1
 * 1) O-hayou
 * 2) O-hayou gozaimasu
 * 3) Arigatou gozaimasu
 * 4) Arigatou
 * 5) Gakusei desu.
 * 6) Gakusei da.


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Honda Nighthawk/Restoration

Remember the old saying about "Estimating time and doubling it" to come up with something reasonable when it comes to fixing anything? A complete bike restoration can take several months to years to complete. It’s probably going to take more time for several reasons. Most likely you'd be fitting the work around other things happening in your life, expect lots of interruptions and delays. You tend to discover parts that need replacement as the project is proceeding. Sometimes parts need to be sent away for servicing or they might not be readily available and you have to find them. Then there is the money thing. What level of perfection do I want, and how much is it going to cost. It always takes longer and cost more than you think

Teardown. Having a bike broken down into five hundred pieces at the end of the day can give one a terrific sense of accomplishment. Don't do it!. Putting everything back the right way and in the right place is the hard part. Here are some suggestions that might help.

1) The time between the teardown stage and assembly will take a while. Knowing exactly where things belong at some point in the distant future can save you an enormous amount of time. Invest in a selection of different sized freezer bags that have the nifty seals and a place for writing a label. As a part comes off, clean it with its respective fasteners, washers, gaskets etc. Put the pieces into a bag and label what it is and where it goes. Apart from left, right, front and back some things like carburetors, pistons and valves require referencing to the cylinder numbers. The plastic bags also protect the parts from corrosion. Spending extra time staying organized at this stage will have a huge payback six months from now when assembly starts.

2) Set parts aside that require further repairs or refinishing before assembly. Sometimes it's nice to have a few jobs that can be completed in an hour or so.

3) Follow the shop manual as you take things apart. If your not sure where to start or how things work, the manual will tell you. If you have a digital camera take lots of pictures especially areas that look complicated.

4) Invest in good tools. Fortunately you don’t need a lot of tools to work on a bike. A must is a set of 6 point sockets(not 12 point)in ¼’and 3/8” drives and a good selection of extensions. Universals and wobble extensions are handy to have for tight spaces. A set of hex sockets for ¼” drive are also a must have. For assembly you need a torque wrench. The newer types that go “click” are slick. Combination, box and open end wrenches, use them where you have to, but make sure they are in good shape. Hopefully Philip head screws will be a thing of the past some day, but until they are an impact driver is the best way to get them out. 5) Avoid damaging or breaking parts. A broken bolt may use up your valuable time attempting to remove it, or worse, destroying the part your working on. Parts for older bikes are expensive and hard to find. You just have to walk around a salvage yard to see bikes that have been scrapped because the parts needed for repairs are too expensive or not available. Not sure how to remove a rusty bolt with the stripped head. Here is practical advice from someone with years of experience on all aspects of MC repair See Dan's advice

6) Bikes built since the early 1980’s have lots of plastic and rubber components. These tend to become more fragile with age. So be careful.

7) If you don't have the special service tools specified in the manual. Make sure what you do use as a substitute will work without causing damage.

8) If you are fortunate enough to be working with a bike that runs, test as many systems as possible beforehand to identify any problems and determine which parts need to be replaced or repaired.

9) If you’re uncertain about a procedure, the Nighthawk Groups in the links section are always very helpful.

10) Start looking for replacement parts as soon as possible, even if you're not buying right away-just to get an idea what is available. eBay and the various online groups are good sources, as well as MC salvage yards. Parts for items that wear out frequently tend to still be available from Honda or other aftermarket suppliers.

11) Don't get overwhelmed with the job. Break it down into smaller steps, each with a beginning and a finished end.

12) Gas tanks seem to get more easily damaged off the bike than on. Store them in a safe place, preferably far away from your work area.

13) You don't like wrenching on motorcycles but want a cheap bike, don't even start.

Stripped an internal thread here is how to fix it Using a Helicoil insert

Restoration Projects
1985 750 Nighthawk S

If your complete restoration of the bike includes major engine work, I would suggest the following teardown order to make engine removal as painless as possible.. 1)Seat, 2)Gas tank, 3)Exhaust pipes, 4)Rear tire, 5)Air box with boots, 6)Engine.

Engine Removal

Ref 5-2 Remove both ends of the hoses and look out for the O rings

Ref 5-4 Subframes (are these on 750SC’s also?)

Ref 5-4 Remove and examine gear shift position switch check for continuity. Ref 21-8

Ref 5-5 (Top) Engine Removal. The manual makes this job sound like a Sunday stroll.

If you’re planning to take the carbs off, this is a great time to do it and make a little extra room to squeeze the engine out of the right side. If you happen to be on the Olympic weightlifting team follow the manual. . If not, here is what works.

Save the frame paint, wrap it with some thin padding along the bottom right cradle tube where the oil pan has to clear. To have good control, you need to pull from the top, not push from the bottom as the manual suggests. To do this, locate the bike under a ceiling joist or roof rafter. Attach a light chain or rope hoist at a point above the engine to the joist. On the bike remove the two outside acorn nuts from each side of the head and make up two short straps from seatbelt material or a 1/16” X 1 1/4 steel strapping. Cut or drill two holes to suite the bolt spacing on the head in each strap. Attach the straps (use flat washers with the seat belt material). Next attach each end of a rope about 8 feet long to the straps in such a way as to make a bridle with the spine of the frame in the middle. Attach the bridle to the hoist and lift to take the full strain of the motor. Lift the motor just enough to make sure all of the engine mounts are free. Have a peek at the rubber boot at the driveshaft tube. It should just be starting to slide. Watch the boot for any pinching. Use the scissor jack under the oil pan to make tilting adjustments. The engine needs to go forward and as high as possible to clear the frame. To do this, lift up with the hoist and pull the bike back. The kickstand should slide on the floor. As you do, the spline connecting the output shaft from the motor to the universal joint should slide off. Look inside the rubber boot to make sure it has cleared before proceeding. Once the engine is in position, block it up and slide the bike sideways (left). When the strap on the left side of the head slides under spine of the frame, disconnect the rope and reattach to the strap, passing it under the right side of the spine. Pull the motor up a bit, continue sliding the bike to the left and the engine slips out. No strain, no pain and if your careful, not a scratch on the frame.

title: Honda Nighthawk/Restoration


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Advanced Interactive Media/LiveType

LiveType
Apple is text creator in the following paragraphs the basics of this program will be explained. Start out by typing in the Inspector window in the upper left hand box. After typing in a word, it appears on the Canvas. The Blue Bar under the text moves the text around, or by just clicking on a letter that letter will move by itself. The start and end points on blue bar moves the text vertically. A person can create a control point on the blue bar to skew the text by holding down control then click on the blue bar and choose ‘add control point’. To curve the text hold control then click on the control point and choose add a curve point. Attributes and text settings are similar to that in Photoshop. There is two different font types Regular and LiveFonts. In the media browser window on the far right choose the font tab and choose a font and click apply to change it. To style the regular font a viewer can go back to the inspector window and change the text in any way that they wish with attributes, effects, style and text. Under the style tab there are four ways to style the text shadow, outline, glow and extrude. LiveFonts are pre made animated texts that a user can choose from in the media browser under Livefonts. To change the color of the Livefont the user can simply go to attributes in the inspector window and change the color where it says color. The texture tab in the media browser allows the user to put an animated background to the text. When adding textures the texture gets put onto the timeline below the separated bar, this is so that the user can choose whether or not they want to include it in final render. The viewer can drag the background on the timeline above the separation bar and that would make the background automatically render out in final output with the text. The timeline in LiveType isn’t like a normal editing system timeline. This is because when an animated text or background is dragged out or shortened it makes it faster and longer in speed. In the inspector window under the tab timing it displays the speed of the layer and the user can notice as they shorten or lengthen the speed changes. But, this doesn’t apply to anything static. The user can also slide the layer up and down the timeline horizontally to make it appear earlier or later in the animation. One very good feature about LifeType is that the preset textures can loop seamlessly. Another cool feature about LiveFont is that it can have multiple projects open at a time and be able to switch between them with tabs right above the timeline. The user can also hold down control and click on a track to copy and then paste it on another project. One more handy feature is that the user can hold down control and click on a track and choose reveal media browser to find the original source of that track quickly. Some really good free tutorials on LiveType can be found at: http://www.livetypecentral.com/cgi-bin/livetypecentral.cgi/tutorials.html

Product Link: http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro2/livetype.html

title: Advanced Interactive Media/LiveType


text:
Talk:Swing Dancing/Groucho

Groucho?
How is a "groucho" more than a swingout from closed to closed?

title: Talk:Swing Dancing/Groucho


text:
Dutch/Vocabulary/Transport/Selftest

Test your knowledge by hovering the mouse over the picture after saying what it should be in Dutch

title: Dutch/Vocabulary/Transport/Selftest


text:
Microsoft SQL Server/Best Practices

 * Always qualify objects by owner.=
 * Use query "with (nolock)" when you don't require high transactional consistency.
 * Do not use GOTO.
 * Avoid CURSOR use because it's significantly slower. If necessary, always declare the correct type of cursor (FAST_FORWARD).
 * Avoid SELECT INTO for populating temp tables. Create the table then use INSERT SELECT.
 * Always use ANSI join syntax.
 * Always check for object existence.
 * Use SCOPE_IDENTITY instead of @@IDENTITY.
 * Always check @@TRANCOUNT and commit/rollback as necessary.
 * Order to avoid deadlocks.
 * Always check @@ERROR and @@ROWCOUNT by assigning to a variable.
 * Always check sp return values.
 * Do not create cross-database dependencies.
 * Avoid table value UDF – performance problems.
 * Avoid dynamic SQL – if necessary use sp_executesql over EXEC.
 * Avoid using NULL values.
 * When there are only two values, ISNULL is more efficient than COALESCE.
 * Always specify columns; try to avoid "SELECT *". Exceptions include these two cases: "WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * ...)" and aggregate functions.

title: Microsoft SQL Server/Best Practices


text:
Dutch/Vocabulary/Animals/Selftest

Do you know these animal in Dutch? Hover your mouse over the picture to see the Dutch name

title: Dutch/Vocabulary/Animals/Selftest


text:
Talk:Muggles' Guide to Harry Potter/Books/Goblet of Fire/Chapter 2

Synopsis
The synopsis of chapter 2 is very short, but that's really because very little actually happens. Harry's scar hurts; he thinks about who he could talk to about it; and finally he decides to write a letter to Sirius, writes the letter, and sets it aside. End of chapter. Most of the chapter really is re-introducing us to Harry, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, and the Dursleys, and to a lesser extent Sirius and Hedwig.


text:
Wikibooks:Policies and guidelines/Vote/What is Wikibooks

Please review the [ policy under discussion] before voting.

Key Points

 * Wikibooks is for textbooks
 * Defines what textbooks are and what they contain
 * Omissions aren't a reason to keep or delete textbooks
 * Changes in practice can be more easily reflected one point at a time as they are agreed on.

Votes

 * Only registered users with at least 20 edits can vote.
 * Vote ends one week after the last posting or consensus has clearly been reached.
 * Add votes in the format  #~

Support

 * 1) dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama  22:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 22:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) SB_Johnny  | talk 22:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Webaware talk 03:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Az1568(Talk) 03:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) within focus 14:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) Jimmyatic 14:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) Urbane User   (Talk)   (Contributions)  15:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Tannersf 21:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) ALTON .ıl  03:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) Remi 03:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) Therequiembellishere 21:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 13) Celestianpower 23:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 14) Mattb112885 (talk) 13:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 15) Mike.lifeguard 01:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 16) alexsmail 10:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 17) hagindaz 00:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 18) Keytotime 14:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 01:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Panic 01:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Rob Horning 22:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * xixtas talk 01:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The existing policy is far better: far clearer for readers, far more comprehensive, and far more accurate. Uncle G 09:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Cspurrier 21:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Iamunknown 22:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) This proposal is definitely a step toward a good direction: it defines textbooks, deals with computer games and omissions. But it lacks clear rules what texts should go to Wikisource (we don't need 100-years-old outdated books here), explicit prohibition of self-promotion and propaganda (it mentions products etc. but not religious beliefs and political opinions). It does not deal with self-censorship as the old one did. I also fear that after mentioning Wikiversity so many times, people will start writing "courses" there being in fact our textbooks. I'm not against the direction of changes in the policy, but I think that in current shape it's still not ready. Also, with so many votes against, there is no consensus to introduce it. --Derbeth talk 14:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Abstain

 * 1) Whatever "consensus" is we do not seem to have it about this policy in my view -- Herby  talk thyme 12:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) I still think the language needs work, but I agree with the policy in spirit.  xixtas  talk 14:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

 * I have voted oppose as I believe that video game guides would be valuable to the project and help generate further interest in Wikibooks. People claim that we 'were told' to remove guides but surely such a decision rests with those who are part of the project and not from high above.  Plus the list of what's OK for Wikibooks is not exclusive which may cause problems later when someone creates a new book (for example a textbook on rolling joints, or making a nuclear bomb) and finds that it's later nominated for deletion.Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 01:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I support the view that removing content without a stated limitation of space, and proper data that permits to generates an analysis of quality of the content and interest by Wikibookians, should be objected by default, more content doesn't directly relate to more users/readers but less will certainly contribute to diminishing interest.
 * There are other problems on this particular "vote", it should have been made more publicly known that it was running, the considerations about the limitation or restriction to the enforcement of the text hasn't been taken in account and it is present on the discussion page, from that I don't think a presumed consensus could be asserted.
 * As for the text proposed, it has indeed improved but there isn't a need to directly mention the GFDL (as recent posts on the staff lounge indicated) there may be a need to add more licenses in the future a simple reference to the Copyrights would have sufficed and facilitate evolution on that subject in the future. --Panic 01:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * We never delete materials because of space concerns, we delete things that are against policy and need to be deleted.
 * This vote is not properly advertised, but a discussion of this magnitude will likely be open for a long time, so we dont need to worry right now that people can't find it. It will get more public as time goes on. Also, no consensus is being "asserted", that's why we are putting it to a vote.
 * It is unlikely that we will ever alter the license here, even if people talk about it on staff lounge. And if we do make such a major change in the future, it is likely that this and many other policy documents will need to be rewritten entirely. I don't see mention of the GFDL as being a good reason to oppose a policy. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I can think of a dozen good reasons why we shouldnt have videogame guides here, and none of them have to do with the fact that Jimbo said we shouldnt have them. We shouldnt make a decision based on our personal dislike of outside authority, but instead based on what is best for the project. Videogame guides technically shouldnt have been allowed under the previous version of the WIW policy, and the ambiguity on that matter has caused many problems. Fact is that most of the videogame guides have already left of their own volition, and the few new guides that are uploaded here are quickly abandoned. Fighting to keep videogame guides here is useless because there aren't many here left to keep. We might as well just cut out the ambiguity and prevent further confusion. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I also see no reason to include Videogame guides. Perhaps another wiki at another time, but as for now, I agree with Whiteknight.--Jimmyatic 14:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * People seem to have a problem with both trying to be exclusive and and not being exclusive. People who don't like the exclusive approach raise concern about potential abuse by admins to mass delete anything thats not on the list without any regard to VfD and people who want it to be exclusive point out problems with people adding things which might get deleted later. WIW is never going to be perfect or satisfy everyone. WIW states both 1) that to be on Wikibooks it needs to be able to pass consensus to remain and 2) Omissions are not a reason to justify keeping or deleting books. Surely in its current form any omissions from the policy proposal can be quickly addressed once agreed on, if passed in its current form. If people don't want something to be on Wikibooks its not going to pass VfD and this proposed policy is simply saying it can't be used to justify keeping it. Any book can be nominated for deletion, its up to the community to decide what to keep or delete. What reasons do you think this policy must be exclusive and how does that benefit anyone? --dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 02:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I also see no reason to include Videogame guides. Perhaps another wiki at another time, but as for now, I agree with Whiteknight and Jimmyatic. alexsmail 10:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Can and May
Question: Why do some of the headings under "What are Textbooks" use "can" and some use "may" is there any difference between these terms in this context? -- xixtas talk 13:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that the two words are being used for the same concept, but represent different grammatical uses. A common example of the difference is somebody asking "can i go to the bathroom", to which the common reply is "I dont know, can you?" "can" represents the ability to do something, and "may" represents having permission to do something. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 13:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In which case, "can" speaks to a general state of capacity and "may" speaks to a level of permission. So the items with "can" are attempts at general descriptions of what textbooks (as rather uniquely defined by wikibooks) "are" and the two using "may" speak to what textbook authors are and are not allowed to include? -- xixtas talk 14:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Although American (at the least) grammar has made the words interchangeable when they are not, "can" is really the ability to do things. Since anyone can edit this wiki, "can" is inappropriate by how I see it. The WIW list is for permissions. I suggest we make a quick fix to rename all the "can" to "may" and unbold the terms as well since I don't see the point. -within focus 14:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with a change of all "can" to "may". However i like that they are bolded because it draws attention to the differences. That's just a formatting issue, and it doesnt technically affect the text of the proposal, so i wont throw a fit if the formatting disappears. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 15:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * May should definetly remain the bold. alexsmail 10:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I rather like the bold formatting, the point is to draw the readers attention to the differences. --dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 16:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"Expensive Proprietary Textbooks"
I voted Support, but I don't think "We hope this provides a better alternative to expensive proprietary textbooks." in the first paragraph should be included. It just doesn't serve a real purpose... In addition, we is used nowhere else in the document. It shouldn't be included. --Jimmyatic 14:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If that sentence were changed to "it is hoped that..." intead, would it be better? --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 15:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "it is hoped that..." is excellent! But for me, I still believe the "expensive proprietary" in "It is hoped that this provides a better alterntive to expensive proprietary textbooks is too much.  Is there any way to change it to be a bit more friendly?
 * I know what is trying to say, but... it might be too much. But that's just my opinion and it doesn't seem that anyone else has a problem with it so, hey. --Jimmyatic 14:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I certainly see your criticism, and I do agree with you that this sentence is out of place. If we can get this policy passed, we can certainly edit or modify that sentence as needed to make it perfect. We dont want to ignore anybody, no matter how few people agree with them. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 14:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Missing some of the old "Wikibooks is Not" - Send people to strategy Wiki?

 * I like most of the changes that have occurred, its certainly much more condensed than it was before, and I think easier to read. Noticably, some of the points about what wikibooks is not (such as, it is not the place to do development, it is not censored, and it is not a soapbox) have been removed, but I'm not sure if they were necessary based on the history of activities here. If we see someone doing the former, we can easily just point them to meta as the right place to go, I'm not sure if the latter should be in policy or not because we don't want this to become myspace once it has shown more growth in readership and contributors, but if there are adequate decision making policies in place (that's another one that'll be worked on once we come to a decision on this one) this shouldn't hopefully be a problem.

 * Other than that, I think the policies themselves as they are are make sense, maybe we should mention strategy wiki as an alternative place for VG strategy guides? The way I see it, VG guides are un-contestably allowed there, so why not encourage people to develop them where there will not be controversy over its appropriateness for the project, rather than here where there has been a significant amount of it? Mattb112885 (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * IMO the not censored bit I think is more appropriate for General disclaimer. If you look at the key points of the soapbox section they were covering NPOV, essays and advertisements/self-promotions which are covered in this proposal as Maintain a neutral point of view, Not actively promote or advertise products, services or companies, not essays, or for planning a class curriculum or online learning course and a few other things. The development bit I think may be covered by Wikibooks focuses on textbooks text which also includes Our sister project Media-Wiki has a place for proposing new Wikimedia projects if you cannot find a wiki for what you want to do. So it already points people to Wikimedia for proposing new projects. So hopefully I've addressed your concerns.
 * I don't think suggesting StategyWiki as a place to post VG strategy guides should be a problem. I'll add it. --dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 16:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree, some people want to keep videogame guides here, but we really need to consider that wikibooks isn't perfect for the game guides, and that strategy wiki is perfect for them. Game guides at strategy wiki simply have more potential to succeed then a guide here. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 15:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * As I believe my criticisms have been addressed (or can be after the vote has closed) and the objections I have seen have mostly been either minor or refuted without counterargument, I have voted yes. Mattb112885 (talk) 13:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Travel guides

 * Can we get some agreement as to the use of Wikibooks for storing travel guides? Discussion here: 1 and 2 this could be a growth area. Pluke 16:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's another can of worms that we really shouldnt be opening right now. This proposal states that ommissions from it's text cannot be used as a justification to keep or delete materials. In other words, anything that isn't stated specifically is not to be implied from the text. Travel guides are not explicitly mentioned here, which means that it is up to the judgement of Wikibookians to determine whether they belong here on a case-by-case basis. Of note, Wikitravel is an excellent place for hosting travel guides, and if the controversy here surrounding them is too great, i would suggest authors could try moving them to that other site. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 16:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Policy vs. Guideline

 * I will agree into making this a guideline (the actual version, not the proposed), since the enforcement of this text is not needed (as it doesn't indeed define nothing, it provides guidelines on acceptable content), this is further reinforced with the declaration "Omissions should not be used to justify keeping or deleting pages or books.", I think no one that has opposed this as a policy will object making it a guideline.
 * Can anyone point out what if not to block the creation of non compliant material will be the purpose of making this a policy? --Panic 16:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * This page is a foundation piece for our entire project, and will have a dramatic effect on future operations here. Making this a guideline simply shouldn't be an option, and I wont agree to it at all. This policy is enforceable because it defines things that are not acceptable to be here. This policy can be used as justification to delete things as per our deletion policy, especially in discussions at VfD. The fact that omissions to the policy cannot be used as deletion justification does not mean that the policy itself cannot be invoked to justify any deletions. It only means that things that are not specifically specified are not implied. There are several things in that proposal that are specifically mentioned, however. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 16:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok "This policy can be used as justification to delete things as per our deletion policy" that is why I will not support it, what if a VfD goes against (or seems) one of the definitions on this text. VfD is a very specific analysis of a work it should be able to supersede any "static" definition.   --Panic 16:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Reverting Copyright to GFDL is an error since the GFDL doesn't provide information about the invariant sections (the GFDL limitations we use), and in fact makes the statement incorrect. --Panic 17:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * As a policy this proposal would allow VfD to supersede any "static" definition given through being able to pass community consensus. It also specifically mentions the deletion policy as the process to be used for removing/deletion pages. --dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 17:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes the enforceable section is very disarming (txs for making it more readable), that is why I don't understand why to push it to be a policy in the first place, it really says it doesn't define anything and does nothing, it's just a bunch of guidelines on what should or not be here on Wikibooks. --Panic 17:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikibookians are not robots, they are allowed to make decisions in just about all matters. Many sections of this policy are intentionally left vague to preserve the power wikibookians have to make decisions on these kinds of matters. Furthermore, in VfD, admins may use judgement as to whether to delete or not delete a page, and that judgement is based in large part off this policy, and the arguments that wikibookians make concerning this policy. There are real tangible effects from this proposal, and making it a guideline will only encourage people to be more loose in their interpretation, and more willing to disobey it all together. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 17:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Guidelines aren't open to be disobeyed without a good reason, and this shouldn't be a policy that enforces personal judgments, because they are personal and may not reflect the spirit or the intention of what is written down, in this case the text has no written enforceability (teeth), it goes as far as to state that it does nothing than provide a guideline of what content is acceptable or not. --Panic 18:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, without a good reason. But when it comes down to it, everybody treats the deletion of their work as a "good reason". It has written enforceability, it is enforceable through the deletion policy, which it expressly mentions. WIW discusses what to delete, the deletion policy discusses how to delete it. The two work together, and are very enforceable. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 18:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That was my point if it is enforced by another policy why does it need to be a policy? What you seem to be atempting to state is that it defines or gives guidelines to the implementation of another policy, so it should be a guideline, what makes you think that by doing that we are degrading its intentions. I expect you are not assuming bad faith from users ("only encourage people to be more loose in their interpretation, and more willing to disobey it all together"), apart from that I don't see any other point on making it a policy and see benefits in making as lose as possible to permit evolution and new formats to appear and be chalanged. --Panic 18:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Say what you want to say, I wont try to change your mind because your mind is demonstratedly unchangable. Enough other people see a value in making this a policy and, considering your history of misunderstandings and misinterpretations, your failure to see that value is inconsequential to me. this proposal fixes a number of ambiguities that plagued the previous version, including a much-needed definition of the term "textbook" which is invaluable to this project. It is the cornerstone on which all other policies are based. We will wait until more votes are cast, and we will see what the community wants. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 19:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikibooks are released with no invariant sections. See the template at GFDL. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 17:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I know that, you know that, but if the text is to be made useful it should not induce in error, a work with invariant sections is GFDL but will not pass out limitation and so not be acceptable for Wikibooks, not all users click in every Wikilink, even the link is misleading it names the GFDL but links to the copyright page, geez, that was what I was stating from the start. --Panic 17:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Major changes without discussion prior to vote

 * The latest changes since the last comment on the talk page are so numerous and has so completely gutted the previous policy that I can't possibly support this change. This was not simplification, and I am actually shocked that not even a simple comment like "I've cleaned this up for clarity" was even put in the edit history.  For such a major change from this version has not even had so much as a minor comment.  I would consider the diff beteween this version I noted and the one under proposal to be huge, and certainly has not achieved any sort of concensus.  I also strongly disagree with the ultra strong tone of "Wikibooks is only for textbooks" that seems to come across.  --Rob Horning 22:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse me for asking for some clarification here, but are you saying that people should vote against this policy (or at least that you are voting against it) because it's a big change from a previous version of the proposal, and because the edit summary isn't satisfactory? This page represents a straw poll to gauge the level of consensus, it doesnt make sense to me that we should have to acquire consensus on the policy talk page, and then require it again here. If that is your position, then I say we should delete this page completely, and simply get consensus once on the module talk page. As to your last objection, there is certainly a strong "Wikibooks is only for textbooks", but this proposal is intentionally vague in specifying what precisely a "textbook" is. For comparison, the current version of this policy also states unambiguously "this is for textbooks", but makes no attempt to define what a "textbook" is in terms of our project. So it's my opinion that the fact that "Wikibooks is for textbooks" is not being changed with this revision, but that an effort has been made to define what a "textbook" is. Notice that under the current vague definition many different types of educational resources do qualify as being "textbooks" for inclusion here. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 15:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify here, I felt that we were making some significant progress on this policy before the major changes were made. I also don't think this is a mere straw poll to gague concensus but rather a ratification of a major policy.  As with nearly any heavily edited page on any Wikimedia website or even any Wiki at all, if you make a substantial change I feel it is incumbent that the person who made the changes should offer reasons why the changes were done.  I didn't see this happen here, certainly not to the degree I'm accustom to on Wikipedia or even to pages I've been involved with here on Wikibooks.  And to move this to become the "official, enfoced policy of Wikibooks" when such changes occur presuming that no futher debate can occur to change the policy is where I think this has gone too far.  Sure, once this vote happens it can still be changed, but it will develop its own inerta resisting any real substantive change of this order.  --Rob Horning 07:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If I understand correctly your opposed because the edit summary didn't include a simple comment on what was done. As can be seen [ here], its simply not true. While I did not say "I've cleaned this up for clarity", I did summarize what I had done and I disagree that the result was a huge change. The points are the same, except for the absents of a disclaimer which was replaced with a link to the content disclaimer. I agree with Whiteknight, that it doesn't make sense to have to acquire consensus twice. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 15:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I may be mistaken, but I thought that the point of the unstable branch was to propose changes without reaching consensus, and without changing the currently-active policy. I agree that it is the point of this vote to secure consensus, and though the talk page can and should be used to get peoples' opinions as far as how the policy is coming along, but I do not think we should discount the vote simply because editors did not leave a message every time they changed something.

 * With that said, I will ask you: what do you think of the policy in its current state? Mattb112885 (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't mind it so much, but I did raise several objections that key points were missing from this proposed policy that were in the previous version(s) of this policy, and were IMHO important enough not to be omitted simply due to simplification. I felt that a rough compromise was made that preserved some positive language, but this current version represents a major change from that previous compromised version.  I'm not objecting to discounting changes without comment, but to make these kind of changes and move this policy to enforced status immediately after those changes are made is where I am objecting.  I just don't think this version has had the same level of previous review and compromise that earlier versions of this policy, even in the unstable branch, had achieved and it was premature to bring this to a vote in such a condition.  --Rob Horning 07:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm dense or unable to read between the lines, but I don't see anywhere on this page, where you previously objected to the current proposal missing key points that the previous version had. So I have no idea what key points your referring to. What key points do you think are now missing? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 12:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I would also like to express that I dislike what I perceive to be a textbooks-only policy and further and, further, that I do not like the plethora of inclusion-related policies that we are now getting. If we are going to have Annotated texts, then we logically have Textbooks; both would entail what type of texts are permitted on Wikibooks; I, however, would like to see an inclusion policy written that includes all items of consideration in one text and is less textbooks-only.  --Iamunknown 23:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * For that exact reason I started a proposal at Textbooks, but it didnt gather any attention. I think it's a better idea to have many smaller policy pages then a single gigantic one, but that's a minor point really. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 23:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Textbook definition
Regretfully Oppose. The definition of "textbook" is too idiosyncratic and arbitrary. "Textbook - A formal manual of instruction in a specific subject, especially one for use in schools or colleges." -- xixtas talk 01:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

To explain this a little better, there is a section entitled "What are textbooks" this is followed by a set of bullet points. These points describe wikibooks but they are not a good description of textbooks. Take the bullet point "Textbooks are not mirrors for contents on another website." If this phrase is taken out of context it is a non-sequitur of gigantic proportions, on the order of "Apples are not golf courses on the beach." Well of course they are not. But looking at it a little deeper one finds that textbooks *can be* mirrors of other web content. In fact, the purpose of the GFDL is to allow "mirrors" of our content in various forms. Take "Textbooks may be printable or have printable versions, but textbooks are not paper, limited in size, intended to remain static or be restricted in any way." In real life, textbooks can be (and most real textbooks are) restricted in many ways. Even the books we write here are heavily restricted judging by this document and the results of VfDs. Also clearly most textbooks are paper. I would like to avoid saying things that are generally not true in our policies and guidelines. -- xixtas talk 14:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Not to be silly, but that's something I find frustrating about the name of our project. This is Wikibooks. We write wikibooks. So it gets difficult to talk about what a wikibook is in the plural. Maybe switch to "A Wikibook is not paper", to sort of clarify what we're talking about?
 * In a very general sense, I've been keeping a distance from this change of WIW, because (as I've said in many places), it just seems a bit overambitious. The repeated deadlocks remind me of the way the US congress makes those odd, very large bills, rather than passing small items (we need some pork to spread around, eh?). If we're going to redo the whole thing, why not do it charter-style, where we just approve a very simple version, then add or subtract materials in a line-item fashion? This is how it's done on w:WP:NOT, and by doing it line-item style, the policy has been kept stable over time, while allowing changes to be made when the need arises. -- SB_Johnny | talk 14:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Every time I've seen them referred to as wikibooks, I've found it to be confusing. Its not always obvious whether its referring to name of this website or some book. For this reason I don't think wikibook is a clarification. How about "Textbooks are not limited to paper" or coming up with a different word other then textbook or wikibook to use? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 16:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * In response to Xixtas, I would like to point out that we are not attempting to repeat any previous definition of the word "textbook", but we are instead redefining that word for our personal use here. The things that we make here are obviously not traditional "textbooks", although there are several connotations of that word that we would like to adopt for our use here (while changing many of the specific points). We could use a confusing term like "Wikibooks is for wikibooks" or something equally rediculous, but that would then require a section to define what precisely a "wikibook" is. We could say that "Wikibooks is for apples", and then go on to say that "an apple is an instructional resource for learning". Wikibooks simply aren't traditional textbooks, but at the same time there is no other word that would be better adopted for our purpose. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 15:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Wiki-Books? -- SB_Johnny | talk 17:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Any arbitrary word that we choose is going to come with problems. I really think that the word "textbook" is the best because it is a non-fiction work that is used primarily for education and instruction. Any other word, such as "wikibook" or "Wiki-Book" won't carry those connotations and additional effort will be needed for clarification (besides the effort of changing all mention of the word "textbook" in all our policy and help pages to say "Wiki-Book" instead). --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 03:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I went through and changed the parts that really bothered me regarding the defining of "Textbook" but tried to stay true to the spirit and what I believe was the intended meaning of the original. (Then I restored it to avoid confusion.) My edits. -- xixtas talk 20:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I have read your edits and I like them. I agree with you that there is certainly some confusion stemming from semantics and that it's not entirely clear that we are redefining the word "textbook". I did not see anything in your rewording that struck me as deviating from the intent or spirit of this proposal at all. However, if we rewrote the policy now it would essentially invalidate the current vote and cause us all to start over from square one. I am in the minority here in that I have a much greater sense of urgency to pass this proposal then most people do. I feel that this proposal corrects many of the ambiguities of the previous version, and would be a great boon to our project as we try to move forward. If I may be so bold as to suggest such a thing, might I ask that we save these changes and criticisms for after this policy has been accepted? Changes to the wording and grammar of an accepted policy dont require the lengthy political discussions that the acceptance of an entirely new proposal do. Once the proposal is made official, clarifications are as easy as making the changes and hoping nobody complains. Clarifications and changes in semantics can become the first order of business after we get the hard part (community approval of the policy) out of the way. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 03:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * If my opinion is seen as the one that makes the difference between consensus and non-consensus then I will stand aside. I don't think that is presently the case, though. I will switch my vote to abstaining. -- xixtas  talk 14:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I would agree that some small changes that do not change the meaning or intent can happen afterwards if this policy is passed. The restriction bit I will admit may not be clear. The intent is that textbooks may not necessary share other restrictions of paper either, rather then the interpretation of not being restricted in the broader since. Eg, paper is limited in size, is static and have other restrictions that textbooks here do not necessarily share. I hope by saying this here, it will help insure that the intent of the restriction bit is kept later on, since I noticed its removal from edit xixtas made. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 13:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * How about "..or be restricted by the limitations of traditional paper books." ? -- xixtas talk 14:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I've made some [ minor changes] to try to address some of your issues with the wording of the proposed policy. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 17:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Much better in my opinion. -- xixtas talk 21:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Summary and why I at the moment will not change my vote
I was thinking on changing my vote since the ground I most object to the text now is the rational that was expressed on making it a policy, but I found that there are other points to still object to. I call your attention that policies can't be broken, stating MUST is stating an unbreakable obligation, there are no good justification to break policy... --Panic 00:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "Textbooks are not mirrors for contents on another website.", this statement is incorrect or at least badly stated if I take the meaning as for what it intends expressing.
 * 2) I'm still not comfortable in why make it a policy and not a guideline the text only have 3 lines of NOTs and even those can be a bit vague for instance "other literary works", and the somewhat problematic list of musts. The reason given to make it a policy seem only based on assuming bad intention from users that will lead to directly challenge the text if it is a guideline, I take this as a working in reverse of assuming god faith, or at most an express intent to block or kill content that doesn't conform with text before it is created (in doubt don't do it), I think this shouldn't be the way we look at this text that is indeed a guideline (as it clearly has no enforcement power) or a specific definition to be used and enforced on by another policy.
 * 3) "Be released under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License.", again the devil is on the details, this statement is incomplete (not to say in error) because Wikibooks license in not simply the GFDL but GFDL with some limitations, or put in another way not all GFDL content can be used on Wikibooks. The link is correct as it direct the user to the copyright page but the textual information induces in error (this may not be only a problem with this text but should be corrected if possible).
 * 4) "textbook content must "... "Be accurate, verifiable, peer reviewable and have a distinct book definition.", this will place all current books without a book definition in violation of policy, more it can even generate conflict, for instance the first "scope or book definition" created for the C++ Programming book was created by an outside (non contributor to the book) administrator, without any regard to the book editors, more it may be seen as a way to limit or shape book evolution of enforce and empower a battle over it (the reason of my fork of the C++ was also based on such divergence on the evolution of the work), I envision editors without previous contact with works start to Be Bold and with good intention engage in the activity of providing every book the missing definition. What to do when the content is against the definitions or vice versa.
 * 5) must "Be more than a collection of articles or list of terms, quotations, facts, images or other pieces of information.", to generic and without enforcing the need to consider a book at any stage as unfinished, this will not only invalidate a book in project but also create problems to slow editors.
 * 6) must "Not cover more than one subject (although limited off-topic content should be tolerated if it increases the effectiveness of the textbook).", to generic, can a book be about flowers or only a specific type of lower, can a book cover multiple CPUs, Programming languages etc... In specific can't the C++ Programming book address Programming Patters ?
 * 7) must "Not violate official Wikibooks policies or ignore official guidelines without a good reason.", is there any reason to the existence of this line ?

 * As is my typical style, I will try to address this in a point-by-point manner.
 * Wikibooks is about the creation of new material, not about the collection of existing material. It is fine to move some GFDL material here, but technically that is not our goal here. Mirroring content implies holding a static copy of materials, when in fact materials on our project are open to be edited and modified. This might be vague, but is not incorrect.
 * "Literary" has two meanings, and the meaning most commonly intended from that particular usage is "The collected stories of a nation, people group or culture". It is intended to mean works of fiction, although again there are some ambiguities. The intending meaning of it, and the spirit of it, is not incorrect. Also, it's not a matter of bad faith, it's a matter of finality. We want to be able to say, in a pinch, that X either does belong or does not belong. Opening up to say that there are possible reasons where the policy may be broken, even with good reason, will allow things to be here that dont belong.
 * A minor omission, and one that can be easily and quickly corrected once the voting is over.
 * It does not say that the definition needs to be explicit. But, half your book can't be written about algebra for teenagers, and the other half of your book written about dogs for senior citizens. The C++ book, for instance, is consistant, and a scope is implied.
 * There is strong VfD precedent not to delete books that fail this criteria, so long as there is a possibility of improvement. There is a difference between a book that is temporarily a macropedia until it is finished, and a book that is intended to be a macropedia.
 * Again, dogs and algebra. Writing a book about "flowers" is different from writing a book about "Roses and petunias", or even "Trees and Flowers".
 * Is there any reason against it? Consider the White Heritage Security book (long since deleted), that technically didn't violate WIW, but was still a policy violation. Because it was a violation, it was deleted.
 * Many of the points that you bring up are matters of clarifications or rewordings. We can't change the version of the policy being voted on now, because changing it will invalidate the vote. However, making small changes in wording after the policy has been accepted will be much easier, especially if the changes represent an improvement in clarity. I would ask you to vote now on the "spirit" of the policy, and we can make fixing the particular words a primary concern after the voting is over. What we should do is make a list of small changes that need to be made, so that we can go through and make them at the end. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Existing policy is far better
Can you explain more what you mean? Whats unclear, incomprehensive and inaccurate about this proposed policy? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  13:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The existing policy includes quite a few specific statements that are only obliquely stated, if they are even stated at all, by this poor proposed replacement. One example is "Wikibooks is not a free wiki host or webspace provider.".  These clear titles are necessary.  Without them, the policy is at best unclear, and indeed wholly inaccurate where it actually omits them entirely.  It should be noted that most of the "What this project is not" policies of the various Wikimedia Foundation projects are phrased in the way that the existing policy is.  ("X is not a news service."  "X is not an encyclopaedia.",  "X is not a free web space provider." and so forth.)  To diverge from that common standard so acutely, as this poor replacement proposes to do, only serves to confuse people coming from other projects. Uncle G 11:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Have you seen Wikinews:What Wikinews is or w:Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not? They both use lists rather then titles. I disagree that it diverges from some common standard, that there even is a common standard, that titles are necessary, and that using a list instead of titles makes the proposal unclear or wholly inaccurate. I don't believe "Wikibooks is not a free wiki host or webspace provider" is necessary in this proposal because it contains "Pages that do not aid in the creation of textbooks do not belong here". --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 14:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree entirely, the old version doesnt even describe what a "textbook" is, which I consider to be a very important (critically important) omission. This version also includes more examples of things which do and do not belong. In short, this version answers all the questions that the old version ignored. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The current policy links to textbook for a definition of what a textbook is, and the statement that are are more examples is simply false. (There are fewer examples, and the text is less detailed.  The proposal omits mention of WikiSaurus, for example, and does not contain several of the points made in the existing policy about annotated texts.)  If that is the rationale underpinning the attempted wholesale removal of entire swathes of the existing policy, as is being done here, then it is a bad one. Uncle G 11:11, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Annotated texts already comprise a separate policy, and attempting to discuss that subject at length in two places gives rise to policy contradictions which should be avoided. Also, the way we are using the word "textbook" is not traditional, and is not adequately covered by the linked wikipedia article. It is in our best interest to redefine the word as we need to be more accurate, and not foster the confusion that comes from trying to combine our books and traditional printed books into the same small category. We don't mention tons of other wikis either such as wikispecies, wikinews, or wikiquote. We do say that wikibooks is not a thesaurus, so maybe we could include a link to wikisaurus if that's a big sticking point for you. the "wholesale removal of entire swathes of the existing policy" should be encouraged, where those swathes are redundant or rambling. There are many sections of the existing policy that aren't even related to the "what wikibooks is" subject. The new proposal is more concise, presents the same necessary information with less verbage and less confusion; it omits the things that were worth omitting, and includes only the things that are worth including. Furthermore, much of the information that you think we are losing is being shuffled into other policies or guideline documents instead. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 13:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Annotated texts has its own enforced policy now, there is no need to repeat it here, a link to it is provided within this proposal instead. WikiSaurus is part of Wiktionary, I don't think that a specific mention of it is necessary, but I don't think its addition would a major change either. What things are omitted? I agree with Whiteknight that this proposal does a better job answering questions that the old version did not. Linking to the traditional definition of textbook is not helpful, because textbooks on Wikibooks hardly fit the tradition definition or mold of the word. By providing a definition within the proposal it provides clarification on what textbooks are to Wikibooks and helps to emphasize the mission of Wikibooks better. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 14:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Voting_is_evil and Don't_vote_on_everything
I have some problems with this vote, namely that it is a vote :). The whole format of it encourages dividedness and discourages consensus. I would strongly encourage everyone to read (or reread) the two meta pages above. --Cspurrier 21:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly support that view but due to the way consensus decission is defined we have to vote and numbers do matter. I would support a change to the decission process to abolish direct voting by default in decisions. :) --Panic 00:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure I agree with this, it seems that there's a lot less discussion around here until someone proposes a vote, then all of a sudden all of the opinions come out [or if they had come out, they were in an out of the way place such as a user talk page that perhaps not everyone would read, or deep in some archive]. Without knowing such opinions it is impossible to achieve a consensus. Perhaps the vote shouldn't be used to decide to accept or reject the policy, but simply as a gauge of how everyone thinks it is going, once the discussion has stagnated (as Rob pointed out, the discussion on this particular policy had, for whatever reason, halted despite continued changes, and it took a vote to get out peoples' criticism of the changes). I will agree though that a vote can often throw a lot at us at once rather than focusing on getting consensus of one thing at a time, but whether you want that or not depends on if you like to look at things as a whole or in parts, and I think everyone's different in that regard. Regards, Mattb112885 (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree with Mattb112885, for better or worse, discussion increases when a proposal is brought to a vote. Voting seems to be the only method that works right now for getting an increased idea of what the consensus is on a proposed policy. Very few people seem to want to be involved otherwise and its generally always the same people who are involved. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark [[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]] lama 13:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That's most probably true Darklama but one reason I don't discuss these proposed policies before they are put to a vote is because I don't know they're happening. Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 17:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree with User:Mattb112885, if you look at this page there is significantly more discussion happening then there is voting. Read my comment below for the specifics (i would have posted it here but i read that section first). Basically, the focus is on the discussion here, and there is plenty of it. It is also worth noting that there would not be this much discussion if we hadn't started a "vote". --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 23:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

My objections to the proposed policy
I dislike the inclusion of the one subject rule. It is vague and/or overly inclusive. Under this rule could a book on say Criminal Justice include a chapter on US Law? If no, why not? Any other CRJ textbook would. If it can then the rule is vague enough to imply that it can not. I also found the book definition part as written to be vague and I do not see the point. --Cspurrier 21:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to have a policy then we must be very clear about what the rules are. If we continue to be vague about details then there's no point in having the policy.

Interestingly although you claim to dislike this vote because it's a vote, I see that you have voted. Xania talk 21:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I do dislike votes, but if we are going to have them I will vote --Cspurrier 21:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

 * While the page is named "vote", I dont think that this really has anything to do with a normal democratic vote. Decision making is clear that these kinds of matters are never decided by a "majority vote". That guideline also is clear that consensus can be measured with a straw poll. People who oppose the vote are heavily encouraged to discuss their objections here, and it is on the strength of those objections and following rebuttals that the matter will be finally decided. If anything, the "votes" above are little more then markers for the comments listed below.
 * As to the one-subject rule that you are discussing, the intent was that books that are clearly on two distinct subjects should be split into two books to better cover both subjects. A book on criminal justice is expected to have chapters about law, but also possibly other subjects such a forensics, psychology, etc. All of these subjects would be unified along a particular narrative, however. For instance, we don't want a CRJ book with a chapter on "computer and printer maintenance" because criminal investigators typically need to repair their own computers. We also don't want a book with "Criminal Justice and Dog Care", even if K-9 units are integral parts of some criminal investigations. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 23:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Step in the right direction, but lacks clear rules
This proposal is definitely a step toward a good direction: it defines textbooks, deals with computer games and omissions. But it lacks clear rules what texts should go to Wikisource (we don't need 100-years-old outdated books here), explicit prohibition of self-promotion and propaganda (it mentions products etc. but not religious beliefs and political opinions). It does not deal with self-censorship as the old one did. I also fear that after mentioning Wikiversity so many times, people will start writing "courses" there being in fact our textbooks. I'm not against the direction of changes in the policy, but I think that in current shape it's still not ready. Also, with so many votes against, there is no consensus to introduce it. --Derbeth talk 14:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

 * There is a Annotated texts policy now, which is linked to from within WIW/Unstable, which covers the issue of what texts should goto Wikisource. Religious beliefs and political opinions are covered by the neutral point of view policy, which is mentioned within WIW/Unstable as "Maintain a neutral point of view". I believe "Be considered acceptable through community consensus when there is a dispute as to its appropriateness" covers self-censorship as does the Decision making policy which is linked to from within WIW/Unstable. I also believe one of the disclaimers pages, such as the General Disclaimer, is a better place to cover the issue in more detail. I disagree there is no consensus to introduce it, there are more people in favor then opposed and there has been very little in the way of rebuttals when someone has responded to the reasons for opposing the proposal. Suggesting that people's concerns may have been addressed to there satisfaction. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  20:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Or suggesting that we're just tired about arguing about this proposal. Don't take the silence to mean that the former opposers are now in support - they are not.  If we had changed our minds then we would also change our votes. Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 20:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if someone remains silent there is no way to know if its due to being tired or satisfied. I don't take the silence as a sign of support, but rather abstaining from a decision. I think if people feel that the reasons for opposing have been antiquity addressed, then enough has been done to move forward in making the decision to accept it. Thats even used in the example of one method to reach community consensus in the decision making policy. I'm just disagreeing that opposed votes are necessary enough of to say that community consensus has not been reached. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  20:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Next step?
It seems to me that this policy has failed to reach consensus. Therefore, I would like to ask what you all feel the next step should be in reaching an acceptable compromise. I know Darklama has been making some edits to the existing policy, how do you feel about them? If willing, I think at this point people should make and discuss their own edits as well, and hopefully we'll arrive at something acceptable. Mattb112885 (talk) 14:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I know this might be a depressing suggestion to those who have been working so hard on this, but maybe just make a minor change to the policy by adding a single line: "This policy may be changed incrementally by the addition, subtraction, or modification of particular points, each point to be decided upon separately." Then we could just pass minor amendments when we feel the need, rather than having to rewrite it every time. I think this would be advantageous for 2 reasons: first, because it will let us move through those changes that we already agree upon anyway, and second, I strongly believe that horse trading, poison pills, and "pork" just don't belong in a consensus-driven "society" such as ours... we can leave that to the republics and the democracies. "What is Wikibooks" should contain only and all of those policies that we all consent to. It's not about compromise or trading this for that. It's about coming to agreements, or in some cases coming to see one's view as contrary to that of the community, and agreeing to disagree. Changing things a bit at a time is much better for us. -- SB_Johnny | talk 17:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Do you mean start back at square one? Its a possibility, to do that and then pass amendments to that until it is up to snuff instead of starting with the rewrite and trying to modify that, not sure which method would be better though. If we do take your suggestion then I'm sure there are some things that the community can agree should / can be change. I have to agree with Robert's earlier point that many of the changes were done without discussing until now we have a completely different policy and never really ironed out the details, and therefore if we start again from scratch (or some pre-agreed midpoint) we'd have to make sure we remember that mistake. Mattb112885 (talk) 04:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * There are a few issues with the current policy, we wouldn't have attempted a complete (and controversial) rewrite if the current policy was perfect. That said, Wikibooks is at somewhat of a disadvantage compared with other wikimedia projects. Wikipedia had Jimbo, and later the WMF to help guide it. In many occasions, the correct direction for wikipedia to take was mandated from above. Other newer projects, such as wikiversity had their missions and charters determined before they were even created, so that those projects start off with no ambiguity as to their goals or the types of acceptable content. Wikibooks doesnt have either of these things, and so we are on our own to find our own path.
 * I only say this because i want to point out that we do have a harder time, but I also want to stress that progress isn't futile. We can't rely on external influence, so we do need to rely on each other. Numerically, if you look at the votes you can say that the majority of people are in favor of this proposal. However, because we are a community, and because we only have each other to rely on, a simple voters majority simply can't be made into policy; especially not a policy that is so important.
 * I do agree with Johnny, we need to take this in baby steps. However "baby steps" does not mean that progress will not be made, or that it must be made painfully slow. --Whiteknight (talk) 17:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Babies can get around alarmingly quickly (from a parents' point of view)! Perhaps change the "amendments amendment" to read:
 * "This policy may be changed incrementally by the addition, subtraction, or modification of particular points, each point to be decided upon separately. Such calls for consensus should be announced using Mediawiki:watchdetails (thus making it appear on all registered users' watchlists), and if there are no major disagreements these changes will be put into place 2 weeks after the call for consensus."
 * Baby steps can get you to the cookie jar, as long as you don't keep moving the cookie jar further away. -- SB_Johnny | talk 19:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I dont know necessarily that every little change needs to be announced on Mediawiki:Watchdetails. Also, non-admins can't even edit that page, so essentially non-admins wouldn't be able to propose new ammendments. I think it's a better idea for people to add Wikibooks talk:What is Wikibooks to their watchlist and propose all changes there, or we could propose all changes at the Project staff lounge page, which most people should already have on their watchlists. --Whiteknight (talk) 19:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Speaking of non-admins editing, could someone un-protect the WIW page? If the version under consideration failed to reach consensus there's no point to keeping it protected.Mattb112885 (talk) 04:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Proper way to go about it is the proposer to declare the proposal as closed and state the status of the discussion on the date it closed (for future reference). Why was it protected in the first place ? Proposals should point to the proposed text (history log) and should continue to evolve freely based on the discussion, am I missing something ? --Panic 02:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

(reset) As far as I can tell, it's only protected against pagemoves. Why would you want to move the page?-- SB_Johnny | talk 08:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

 * It was previously protected against editing to maintain stability while it was being considered, it no longer is protected. I thought usually the standard procedure was someone other than the person who opened discussion declares it closed, maybe that's only for VFDs and RFAs and things like that though. Regards. Mattb112885 (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Oops, sorry, i actually thought you were talking about WB:WIW (and wondering why it would need to be edited). -- SB_Johnny | talk 23:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Sexual Health/Basic Reproductive Anatomy

What does the shaft of the penis contains?

 * The penis contains spongy material, blood vessels, and the urethra. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 22:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Urdu/Verbs

This article as it currently stands (11/4/07) does not have a consistent phonetic transcription. It also uses the Devanagari script instead of nastaliq.

=
==================

Notes:

- In two places, it says "see ff.". What is 'ff.'?!!

- Present Simple instead of Simple Present? Same goes for Past Simple.

- Future Continuous is not clear.

3omarz (discuss • contribs) 07:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

=
================

I think present continuous first person fem. plural is wrong. It's kar rahe haiⁿ but it should be kar rahī haiⁿ.

3omarz (discuss • contribs) 20:44, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Urdu/Verbs


text:
Cookbook talk:Tandoori Masala

Spices
Would really like enough direction to be able to prepare this at home. 02:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I've wikilinked the spices, if that was what was troubling you. The directions are exactly as simple as they look - mix the spices together, push through a sieve, and store in a jar for later use. Are you perhaps looking for a recipe that uses this spice mix? One such recipe is butter chicken, a very popular dish in North Indian restaurants in Australia. Webaware talk 09:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Food Colouring
I have removed the food colouring as it is not a part of the traditional recipe. This food coloring is used by roadside stalls and cheap restaurants who do not put enough or none of the costlier ingridients(some dont know all the ingredients) and they make up for it by adding colour. Morover food colouring is a spurious way of cooking(atleast in this recipe because it is not needed). The colour that is widely used is Ponceau 4R, or Cochineal Red A(FD&C Red No.4) It is a  synthetic coal tar and azo dye, carcinogen in animals, can produce bad reactions in asthmatics and people allergic to aspirin; banned in USA & Norway http://www.foodreactions.org/allergy/additives/100.html I believe that colour should not be included as the original recipe.

You can add that some restuarants use colour. I would not prefer to promote something that causes cancer. USA and Norway know better and have banned it.

title: Cookbook talk:Tandoori Masala


text:
C++ Programming/Programming Languages/C++/Code/Statements/Variables/Operators/Conditional Operators

Conditional Operator
Conditional operators (also known as ternary operators) allow a programmer to check: if (x is more than 10 and eggs is less than 20 and x is not equal to a...).

Most operators compare two variables; the one to the left, and the one to the right. However, C++ also has a ternary operator (sometimes known as the conditional operator), ?: which chooses from two expressions based on the value of a condition expression. The basic syntax is:

condition-expression ? expression-if-true : expression-if-false

If condition-expression is true, the expression returns the value of expression-if-true. Otherwise, it returns the value of expression-if-false. Because of this, the ternary operator can often be used in place of the if expression.

int foo = 8; std::cout << "foo is " << (foo < 10 ? "smaller than" : "greater than or equal to") << " 10." << std::endl; The output will be "foo is smaller than 10.".
 * For example:


text:
Talk:C++ Programming/Chapter Object Oriented Programming Print version

Explain why we use the concept of classes in C++, when already the concept of structures prevail in both C and C++?

 * Humm I don't know the actual status of the text (the concepts were in distinct files), the idea of maintaining struct on C++ is mostly for compatibility and simplicity behind a struct a "simpler" class exist, defining a struct is simpler and more direct, for example in other languages like C# structs were optimized for data access, in C++ the specifics are less important but they should be on the book text, classes permit the use of OOP concepts (take a look into the programming paradigms section) about that... --Panic 04:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


text:
C++ Programming/Code/Style Conventions/Comments

Comments
Comments are portions of the code ignored by the compiler which allow the user to make simple notes in the relevant areas of the source code. Comments come either in block form or as single lines.
 * Single-line comments (informally, C++ style), start with  and continue until the end of the line. If the last character in a comment line is a   the comment will continue in the next line.
 * Multi-line comments (informally, C style), start with   and end with.

We will now describe how a comment can be added to the source code, but not where, how, and when to comment; we will get into that later.

C style comments
If you use C style comments, try to use it like this:

Comment single line:

Comment multiple lines:

This allows you to easily uncomment. For example:

Uncomment single line:

Uncomment multiple lines:

... by removing only the start of comment and so activating the next one, you did re-activate the commented code, because if you start a comment this way it will be valid until it finds the close of comment.

C++ style comments
Examples:

or

The backslash is a continuation character and will continue the comment to the following line:

Comments are also sometimes used to enclose code that we temporarily want the compiler to ignore. This can be useful in finding errors in the program. If a program does not give the desired result, it might be possible to track which particular statement contains the error by commenting out code.
 * Using comments to temporarily ignore code

 * Example with C style comments

or

Combining multi-line comments with c++ comments  to comment out multiple lines of code:
 * C and C++ style

Commenting out the code:

uncommenting the code chunk

This works because a  is still a c++ comment. And  acts as a c++ comment and a multi-line comment terminator. However this doesn't work if there are any multi-line comments are used for function descriptions.

Another way (considered bad practice) is to selectively enable disable sections of code:
 * Note on doing it with preprocessor statements

this is considered a bad practice because the code often becomes illegible when several #if's are mixed, if you use them don't forget to add a comment at the #endif saying what #if it correspond

you can prevent illegibility by using functions (often considered better than macros for legibility with no performance cost) containing only 2 sections in #if #else #endif

and call

in the program