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Wikijunior talk:Languages/Esperanto

Pronunciation guide
It would be great is a speaker of this language could add a little information about how the special letters are pronounced. --Starchildmom 22:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * This has been done, but it is probably even more important to have information about how the rest of the letters - the ones used in Latin and English - are pronounced. --Haruo 19:01, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of making stuff visual, rather than trying to explain it in a paragraph. Perhaps adding something like this - which has the new letters highlighted - would be easier to digest?

The only other comments you need to add are:
 * How ĥ is pronounced
 * That q, w, x and y are gone (and maybe how they are replaced by kw, ŭ ks and j)
 * That unlike English, every letter has only one sound (you can use a as an example: f a t, f a te and f a ther all have different sounding versions of a)
 * There are no silent letters (like h in p h )

So you could replace what's in "What writing system(s) does this language use?" with:

Esperanto uses the Latin alphabet, like English, but with a few differences. The letters q, w, x and y are gone, and new letters ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ĵ, ŝ and ŭ are added. The Esperanto alphabet looks like this: (put the tables above here) Most Esperanto letters sound like they would in English, except in Esperanto, the sounds of letters never change. In English, the sound of a is different in f a t, f a te and f a ther, and the s is silent in i s land. That does not happen in Esperanto, because there is only one way to spell a sound, and only one way to sound out a spelling. The major differences from English are that c is pronounced like ts and j is pronounced like y, and the new letter ĥ does not have a sound in English, but is like clearing your throat, or how a Scottish person would say the ch in lo ch . The missing letters q, w, x and y are replaced with kw, ŭ, ks and j. (Then continue with the "Because ordinary keyboards don't..." until the end of the section.)

That's not complete and in some cases it's not technically correct, but it's complete and correct enough to make a sound base for a decent class presentation by a kid, i think.

Thoughts? --Indiana (talk) 18:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I like both the text and the chart. I say Be Bold. - xixtas  talk 03:50, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Bold it is. --Indiana (talk) 00:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Looks good! -- xixtas  talk 03:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Esperist?
Has anyone else heard of Esperantists referred to as "Esperists"? Even a quick Google search gives me this page only, and then a ton pages with "esper ist". I have only ever heard of Esperantists referred to as "Esperantists" or "samideanoj" (by other Esperantists - it means "brother", but not in the family sense - and it's not really a proper name for Esperantists). And then there's the technically correct term Esperantano, but that's not in common use. "Esperantist" is the only term I have heard in common use, and it is the officially designated term by World Congress declaration. Unless someone has heard the term "Esperist" used, I'll take it out. --Indiana (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Contemporary Esperanto writers?
Anyone have any suggestions for more contemporary Esperanto writers who have some influence and/or fame? It's a little depressing that all the candidates I can think of are either dead (see the existing list) or not long for this world (for example, Baldur Ragnarsson). --Indiana (talk) 23:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Living Esperanto-authors
See https://books.google.fr/books?id=-Z_8CG9g2jIC&pg=PA670&lpg=PA670&dq=Essence+et+avenir+de+l%27id%C3%A9e+d%27une+langue+internationale&source=bl&ots=pW8H2IeJel&sig=c8fZEcj0zt3Cb5677WjCDX1GBwo&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ8MKd9sjTAhUKKcAKHTMRCRIQ6AEIXDAJ#v=onepage&q=Essence%20et%20avenir%20de%20l'id%C3%A9e%20d'une%20langue%20internationale&f=false

eo.wikipedia.org :

Post 1991: Postmodernismo Laŭ Lariko Golden (en Ĉu la kvara periodo? Originala Esperanta literaturo en la naŭdekaj jaroj, Budapest, 2002, citita de Sutton en Concise Encyclopedia of the Original Literature of Esperanto 1887-2007, p. 414), nova periodo ekestas per la apero de postmodernismo kun la publikigo de la rakontaro Sur la linio (1991) de Jorge Camacho, sekvata de aliaj komunaj verkoj de anoj de la Ibera Skolo kiel la poemaro Ibere libere (1993). Ĝeneralaj trajtoj de la periodo Romanoj Gersi Alfredo Bays, Gerrit Berveling, Mikaelo Bronŝtejn, Christian Declerck, Sten Johansson, Anna Löwenstein, Paula Mährti, István Nemere, Marco Picasso, Manuel de Seabra, Eugène de Zilah En Kroatio aktivas Spomenka Štimec kiu verkis Tilla (2002) kaj Hodler en Mostar (2006). Rakontoj, noveloj kaj novelaroj Ulrich Becker, Ibera Skolo (Ekstremoj; Abel Montagut), Jean Codjo, Sten Johansson, Gbeglo Koffi, Lena Karpunina, Manuel de Seabra, Tim Westover Poezio Ulrich Becker, Gerrit Berveling, Peter Browne, Tim Carr, Christian Declerck, István Ertl, Ibera Skolo (Ibere libere; Jorge Camacho, Miguel Fernández, Abel Montagut, Gonçalo Neves), Mao Zifu, Moskva Skolo (Mikaelo Giŝpling), Mauro Nervi, Baldur Ragnarsson, Nicola Ruggiero Teatro Paul Gubbins, Giorgio Silfer Eseoj Tradukoj En 1999 La familio de Bakin estis tradukita de Wei Yida. Revuoj de la periodo[bewerken | brontekst bewerken] Krom la jam menciitaj Literatura Foiro en rilato kun Esperanto-sekcio de PEN international, Fonto (ĝis 2006) aŭ La Gazeto, aperas ankaŭ la libroforma revuo Beletra Almanako (de 2007)

e.g. Trevor Steele (Australia), Giorgio Silfer (Italy), Spomenka Štimec (Croatia) are well-known contemporary Esperanto writers...--83.134.161.113 (discuss) 10:48, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Length
I'm concerned about the length of this article. It's now distinctly longer than any of the 100%-completion articles, even the very long ones like (that I recall) German, Serbian, and Swahili; and quite a lot longer than the average. I admit that I too am squeamish about looking any particular content in the eye and telling it "You have to go" — but we really ought to be looking for opportunities to tighten things up somewhat. Simpler may be better. We don't want to drive away kids who aren't at the extreme upper end of the age range (although we surely also want the material to be useful to kids who are at the upper end). --Pi zero (talk) 00:58, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 * The bulk of this article is in the history section. Most languages aren't going to have any history to speak of, other than "it evolved as mix of X, Y and Z sometime back in the haze of ancient history". The few that do have anything approximating a recorded history, like Esperanto or Italian (for example), are naturally going to have longer history sections. What makes Esperanto particularly unique is that 1.) a lot of what it is comes from why it is (because it is a designed language)... and to understand that, you need to understand its history, 2.) most of its history is in the current era, involving things that an average kid today will be familiar with (WW1 & 2, for example), rather than relatively ancient history (take Italian as an example - what average kid will know Frederick II from Adam?) and 3.) Esperanto is, in essence, the result of a 13 year-old kid's love project, and what could be more motivating or interesting to a child than seeing that something they are dreaming up today may become a worldwide phenomenon tomorrow? --Indiana (talk) 01:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Valid points, all. Though I was already beginning to doubt mildly before the history section.  I certainly don't mean to suggest any precipitous action; but after giving ourselves some time to let the material settle in our minds, so to speak, we may find that we can after all see ways to subtly simplify, here and there.  The occasion calls for a light touch, rather than a heavy one.  And there's no rush (as Ingolemo remarked to me over at the Conlang Wikibook a few months back... or was it more like a year ago).

 * BTW, not to misrepresent my own position on this — I really do like the work you've done on this article, quite a lot, which is the basic source of the squeamishness I mentioned earlier. --Pi zero (talk) 02:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Oh, I didn't take your comments as criticism - it's a valid concern, and I did mull it over myself when I was writing the history section in particular (which is why I had all those answers ready ^_^;). I certainly expect trimming, because I tried to make sure that it was as complete as possible without being too complete - or in other words, I erred on the side of length, prefferring to be a little longer rather than lacking in info. I expect editors to come along and trim it a bit - and I don't expect anything more to be added (except one or two more writers in the "who writes" section; contemporary ones), although I might be surprised I guess.

 * In fact, I can already see a few things that might be trimmed out - like the UNESCO mention, and dropping Kálmán Kalocsay from the list of writers (actually, I was aiming for one writer in each "era" of Esperanto: Zamenhof in the formation days, Baghy in the "growth" days (pre WW1), Auld in the golden age (WW1-WW2), Piron in the recovery age (post WW2-80s), and ??? in the modern age - so if I could find a modern name I would ditch Kalocsay and add the modern one), and the paragraph on how to type on computers in Esperanto can probably be cut in half. But I'll leave the trimming to another editor, or I'll do it myself if enough time passes and no one else has done it.

 * I've been working my way down the page sprucing it up with the goal of taking it from "developing" to "publishable". Just the last two sections left. For them, I don't really have all that much new content to add - just a few more things in the words to say, like I'm going to add the numbers, and then drop things like "where's the bathroom" - and it's mostly about reformatting for making it look sweet. --Indiana (talk) 05:48, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I recommend not waiting for other editors; you're immersed in it now, which for purposes of trimming gives you, now, a head start on any other editor, now or later, and even on yourself coming back to it much later. Also, Wikijunior is a slow-paced sort of place (in recent times, anyway), and it could take years before someone else comes around with the time and inclination to tackle the matter.  In all of 2009, for example, the only substantial changes to Esperanto were the expansion and table-izing of the words and phrases, and the removal of some "inappropriately in-depth material" (the latter by Pi zero; I see BTW that that wasn't a matter of length but of focus).  If you see some things that can be trimmed, take the time to be sure of what you want to do, and then just be bold and do it.  If other editors do come around next week, or next month, they'll have an even better starting point from which to further improve this article, or there is no shortage of other articles they can turn their attention to.

 * I'd be interested in your comments on dash-separated lists of words and phrases, as you've reformatted that section, versus tabular format. I always preferred tables, as neat and easy-to-read, to the point in fact that I've long wished I had time to go through and systematically table-ify those lists in all the articles of this book.  Of course some of it is personal taste, but I can't help feeling there are more objective considerations involved, on both sides.  Thoughts?  --Pi zero (talk) 15:24, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Well the other reason I am stepping back and having a "cool off" period before going at this page again is because I want to get back to my primary project - the main Esperanto Wikibook (i am actually right in the middle of a major overhaul job there, and want to get back to it). I feel that this page is now good enough to rate "publishable" (and I'm going to mark it so). Of course, it can always be improved (a lot ^_^;), but I think we're at the point now where we are no longer creating the page, and are now actually in the improving phase. So ya, I'll be getting back to my main project for now, and after that's somewhat settled i'll come back here to take another look. (About the lists vs. tables, i'm going to make another section for that.) --Indiana (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Ah. Yes, I wondered later if something of the sort might be afoot.  I'm only on Wikibooks to help a bit with the Conlang wikibook — with about four detours on top of detours that result in my being here.  --Pi zero (talk) 07:00, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * From my perspective as someone who is exclusively a wikijunior focused editor, having a module that might be too long is a really great problem to have. :) -- xixtas  talk 14:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Perhaps, but it is a much easier problem to fix than being too short. And it doesn't require editors that are knowledgeable about Esperanto to fix. Unless another print version is being compiled sometime soon, it is not something that needs immediate attention. --Indiana (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I made some massive chops. I'm keeping a record of the info before I started cutting. The page was far more in depth than comparable languages in the book. --Indiana (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a handy option on magic word  for things like this.
 * which expands to
 * or, putting it in single square brackets,
 * [ link it to a word or phrase].
 * --Pi zero (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * [ link it to a word or phrase].
 * --Pi zero (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying a different arrangement of the writing system(s) section. Different languages have different things that are especially interesting about them, and I was thinking that the phonetic spelling of Esperanto could be made to be the central point of interest for that section. That way, the tables could be presented at the end as an elaboration of that point of interest. --Pi zero (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if typical English-speaking kids will understand roll your tongue; but so far, I haven't thought of another way of putting it that's obviously any better.
 * I didn't quite have the nerve to put an exclamation point at the end of "it has a sound like clearing your throat!", as that semed like it might be getting a little carried away.
 * I tried explaining the word loch with a reference to the Loch Ness Monster, but decided it could come across as patronizing and didn't really add anything.

 * The thing is, the section is about writing systems... not phonology. If you check the other languages in the book, very few - if any - have any kind of phonological info at all. And since this chapter is already 2-3 times the average size of the other chapters, something has to go.
 * I agree that different languages have different items of interest, but if we have to pick one thing about Esperanto that's interesting... the fact that it's phonetic and orthographic? Really? I would have put flexible word order before that, but if I really had to pick one interesting thing about Esperanto to share to kids, it would be its history - and the goals with which it was designed. That's interesting, and inspiring, and supremely educational (because while they're hearing the story of Esperanto, they're learning more details about history). --Indiana (talk) 05:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Some thoughts, rambling though they may be.
 * I didn't mean to suggest, and don't believe, that there has to be only one interesting thing about each language.
 * Making each article fun and interesting and, along the way, informative is what matters. Overlength is potentially a problem because it may correlate with things getting boring, but that's a side-effect of length, not inherent.  It's good if a language has personality that comes through in its article, so the whole book doesn't become a tedious progression of generic languages.  I think this article feels shorter than it was.  (I also sense, in a detached sort of way, that sooner or later the history section may shorten up significantly further — though I cringe in anticipation.)
 * I think the one-sound-per-letter thing is fun, or at least it can be pitched that way (flaws of my own pitch notwithstanding). It makes the alphabet into a kind of game and helps give Esperanto personality, especially with a few curves thrown in like the velar fricative ("clearing your throat" — I like it).
 * The idea that phonology doesn't belong in that section implies an excessive divorcing of orthography from phonology, to the detriment of the section since the one-to-one phonemic valuing of letters is the distinctive feature of the orthography. (This is somewhat reminiscent of a problem we had at Conlang Intermediate last year, in which trying to separate morphology from syntax was just getting in the way of explaining things clearly.)  Also, I don't think it's entirely fair to insist on limiting the content of the section in a way that really requires a more sophisticated knowledge of languages than we expect our target audience to have even after they've read the book.
 * --Pi zero (talk) 07:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Well:
 * This is not meant to be a comprehensive introduction, and (so I've heard), the goal is to keep this book under 64 pages (obviously impossible, but it's a benchmark). There are 30 languages in the "publishable" section (including Esperanto). Figure on 2 pages per language then. After including the required information, there's really not that much room for other info. Practically speaking, you're simply not going to have room to bring up more than one interesting thing per language.
 * Boredom is not really a concern (of mine). I can write 50 pages on Esperanto and keep kids engaged. The problem is length itself, not the side effects. If this book is going to be transformed into a print book - which is the goal - it has to be kept short for obvious reasons. The Esperanto article is about 50% longer than the next longest article (German), and over 130% longer than the average (see here). (And it's pretty much a given that the history section has to be shortened, but in my opinion, the story told there is the most interesting part of the article, so once the trimming begins, that should be trimmed last.)
 * Saying the alphabet in 30 different languages can surely be fun (and, it might even be a great idea to have a Wikijunior book solely dedicated to alphabets around the world that does just that). But take an average kid, who's read this book. Six weeks later, how is the velar fricative going to "stick" with them? They'll probably never see ĥ again. They may have a few moments of fun when reading the book, sounding out the alphabet, but then... meh. Six weeks later, that's all lost. Instead, think about the story in the history. Six weeks after they've put the book down, they'll still remember that story because stories stick with kids. And whenever they hear a language they can't understand spoken, or hear "united nations", or "nazis", they will recall the story ("the guy who invented Esperanto also understood what it's like to not understand what other people are saying!", "the nazis? oh yes, another one of the evil things they did is they tried to destroy Esperanto!"). It introduces a concept into a child's imagination ("maybe if we could all understand each other, then we could all get along") that can translate into positive action ("wait, instead of fighting about this argument, let's try and understand each others' positions first"). Granted, with many kids that won't happen - they'll put down the book and forget all about it - but more kids will benefit more from the story in the history than will benefit from an afternoon of horking ĥ's. And if we are forced to fit into very limited space, clearly the history warrants the lion's share of the space, so if something's gotta go....
 * If there was room, then it would make perfect sense to map the orthography to the phonology... but there really isn't. And there is no requirement for the readers to understand the division between the two - this is up to us editors to make the judgment call. It's a kid's book - they're not going to miss the phonology if it's not there, and they're not going to suffer as students of the language because this isn't supposed to teach them Esperanto, just give them an idea that it exists, along with a little taste of what it is. This is one chapter in a larger book, and few (if any) of the other chapters discuss phonology. We have to work within the community standards. Unless you want to include phonology everywhere, then it shouldn't be here. (Incidentally, what I was planning to do eventually was link each of the letters in the alphabet to a sound file of the letter being pronounced. That doesn't change the length of the print book, but gives bonus material to people who view the hypertext version.)
 * If you think it's really important to mention that Esperanto is phonetic (or orthographic, or both), then you can do that with a single sentence. All you need to do is: "Esperanto uses the Latin alphabet, like English, except without q, w, x, and y, and with new letters ĉ, ĝ, ĥ, ĵ, ŝ, and ŭ. Each letter is only pronounced one way (unlike in English, where a is different in fat, fate and father"), and there are no silent letters." And that's all there is to it. But I don't really think it adds all that much. (That actually has the benefit of being better than what's there now, because what's there now is technically wrong in the details.)
 * --Indiana (talk) 19:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Just a quick comment for now: I was actually surprised to hear you characterize this article as fifty percent longer than German.  Although I was readily able to work out your basis for that, I think — size of page in bytes — that really isn't how I was measuring the relative lengths.  IMHO byte count doesn't matter much anymore.  You can't see it when you're reading.  I was using a much more simple-minded hands-on measure: vertical length of the article in my browser.  By that measure, when I first expressed concern here about length this article was longer than German, but now it's about twenty percent shorter than German.  --Pi zero (talk) 00:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Byte count is exactly what you see when you're reading. Assuming two pages use roughly the same concentration of markup, the page with the bigger byte count is the page that will take you longer to read. Page length (as in how long the page is in the browser window - I'll use "size" for byte size and "length" for length in browser window) is a measure of formatting. The Esperanto page may look shorter than the German one, but that's because:
 * Unlike the German page, the Esperanto word list is columnized. If you removed the columnizing, the Esperanto page would be longer.
 * Unlike the German song, the Esperanto songs are columnized. If you columnized the German song, the page length would be cut dramatically.
 * The German page uses lots of call backs to the definitions in the intro, which take up a lot of vertical space. This isn't new information, just a reminder of what the kids should have read already. Esperanto only has the definition for "constructed language". If we put in definitions for just "native speaker" and "secondary language", the Esperanto page length would get close (or, alternately, if the German page took them out, it would get shorter).
 * The German page uses templates that won't show up in the print version. That means that even though it looks longer when viewed as a standalone page, it will be shorter in the actual book.
 * Basically, length is a misleading metric. If I were to go and format the German page nicely - without adding or removing a single bit of info - I could shorten the page length by half, easy. Size isn't perfect, but it's much more reliable. --Indiana (talk) 01:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

 * The columnization is a telling point, certainly. You make a good case for byte count as a more useful size-heuristic than vertical length.  When it comes to contemplating specifics of where to cut, though, I'm pretty sure I use pure intuitive feel.  My intuition tells me, for example, that the writing system(s) section feels much shorter to me now than it did in its [ next most recent tables incarnation], despite the fact that by those objective measures they're pretty much the same.  (The difference seems to be that the text is more cohesive and a bit more narrowly focused; imho, not splitting the text around the tables is at least half of the effect.)

 * I'm also at a loss to articulate objectively why I think this additional detail doesn't overburden the article, although it's probably something to do with what I consider a rather light-hearted attitude toward the sounds/letters combined with the fact that that detail quietly fits into the historical motivation of the language (without actually explaining the connection, which would probably come across as heavy-handed). In terms of numbers of print pages... I guess I just rate the writing section valuable enough that I'm inclined to look for significant cuts elsewhere before stepping back for a wider view and bringing the writing section back into play.  (And if I eventually felt I had to shorten it, my first try would be to remove the tables and keep all the current text.)

 * You seem to think in terms of greater uniformity between articles, a trend visible in your Standard list of basic words to learn? proposal. I think in terms of encouraging some variation between articles in what is covered and how deeply, with the common structure of the sections and general patterns broadly followed within the sections, but also some outliers to keep things a little spontaneous.  I would consider the Esperanto writing section such an outlier.  Saying the alphabet in every language would rob it of its novelty at the same time it would cause it to take lots of space in the book rather than a little extra space in one article.  It only makes sense to me as an outlier.  (I'm still mulling over the standard basic words proposal.)

 * I did say a while back that you had an advantage because you know the article in depth. I'll add to that that you have a real disadvantage in that you evidently know too much about the subject.  Even worse, you know enough to realize it's all interesting.  An enthusiast trying to pare down material about the subject of their enthusiasm is a grim sight.

 * Any idea where you heard the under-64-page figure? --Pi zero (talk) 04:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Guh, I'm a goof, sorry. It's 48 pages, not 64.

 * You're absolutely right in saying I'm basing my standards on the book rather than the chapter, and all the criticisms about doing that are spot on. Why am I doing that? Because, as you noticed ^_^; I know too much about the subject, and could easily ramble on for 48 pages myself. I can't use the Esperanto chapter itself to gauge how much is enough, so I use the other chapters.

 * If you want my personal opinion, I agree with you: the chapter is fine as is (although, I do think someone else should take an edit run through the history). I would prefer to see that all the other languages were brought up to this standard, rather than having Esperanto pared down to the existing standard (which is why I am starting a push toward getting standardized phrases across the languages). But... is it more practical to ask 30 other chapters to change to this standard, or this chapter to adapt to their standard? My position is this: I am compromising for now by trying to bring Esperanto down to the community standard... while attempting to raise the community standard... so that if the community standard does rise up, I can use [ the information I saved] to restore the page to where I think it should be.

 * Variation between the languages is all fine and good - in fact, it's a great idea - but Esperanto is like the 200th most spoken language in the world. ^_^; Most people will go their entire lives without seeing or hearing anything in Esperanto (other than a few background noises in movies like Blade). It shouldn't be the biggest (by far) chapter in the book. Clearly that's a sign that something is out of whack: either the rest of the book is too short, or Esperanto is too long. (Incidentally, I've been looking at expanding the Japanese page quite a bit. It doesn't even list katakana, and doesn't say a word about vertical vs. horizontal writng... things that I think are interesting, because you could then mention to kids that Japanese books are "backwards". But for now, I am deep in my Esperanto book improvement project.) --Indiana (talk) 20:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Although I started this thread with an article-wide concern, the scope of my postings has been getting mostly narrower and narrower. It's time for me to revisit wider issues, reassessing and clarifying my positions.

I don't think the article as a whole is fine as is. I'd no longer say it's too long, because "length" isn't the right word for what I mean. Nor "size". Something less suggestive of gross form; perhaps "weight" or "magnitude". Say the article is "too heavy". The reason I'm not particularly worried about the current Writing system(s) section, in particular, is that it feels lighter to me than the preceding with-tables version. The song/poem/story section isn't overweight, I think, nor the phrases. The words list may be (too many number words), and the authors section should lighten up a little (that one won't be straightforward, as it probably shouldn't get shorter, only lighter).

But then there's the history section. My sense is that it's way too heavy. Reducing that is going to be brutal; to be safe, you may want to bite down on a scrap of leather when the time comes.

I'm pretty sure you're the wrong person to do these weight-reductions; you're just too close. I remarked on that before; but there's more going on here — a larger perspective in which to place your situation. Some languages like to proselytize, using their hosts (the people who are like the cells of their bodies) to gain footholds in further potential hosts, and languages like that will tend, statistically, to have heavier articles here; but even amongst those, Esperanto is in a unique position. It isn't the dominant language of any region, from which it would acquire new hosts automatically; it's an exception to the rule that a language is a dialect with an army. It has to, and does, win converts in every generation just to stay alive, which isn't true even of the more aggressive natural languages. That's fine for Esperanto, but I don't think how much a language wants to spread itself should be a determining factor in the size/weight/magnitude of its article here. (Note that, as with all memetics, this is attributing the actions of individual people to a deliberate purpose that is usually not deliberate by the people who actually do them.)

On the other articles of the book, I'm uncomfortable with a systematic expansion across all of them. It's not at all obvious to me that the average magnitude is actually all that wrong. There's a certain logic to the idea that most of the articles should be like popcorn or the like — individual pieces that are very light and can be scarfed down one after another in numbers that add up (though of course these pieces are nutritious). A few of the completed articles might benefit from pinpoint, very limited additions, but there might also be some judicious reductions to some of the long ones. --Pi zero (talk) 06:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The section on history has a Flesch-Kincaid grade level of 10.7 and a Gunning fog index of 14.5. Both of these numbers indicate that there's some work to do here in terms of simplifying the writing. It's 723 words long (just FYI). The section on where it is spoken has a grade level of 7.7 and can pretty easily be brought down to 6.5 (which is what I aim for when I'm writing for Wikijunior.) xixtas  talk 22:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Despite my general distrust of metrics, I admit that's rather cool. --Pi zero (talk) 03:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

List vs. tables for "what words can I learn?" section
I just rewrote the "what words can I learn?" section - mostly to change the words that were there - but while I did it I replaced the table formatting with lists instead. Really... that was just because that was how i wrote the list of words. ^_^; Much easier to make a list of words as a list rather than in wikitable formatting. ^_^;

But I do have some reasons for picking one over the other. They're all entirely unscientific, and based only on how I read, so your mileage may vary.

Tables are great for associative data - information where you're trying to say "here's A, and here's the B associated with A". If we were making a vocabulary list for an actual Esperanto lesson, a table would be perfect, because we would want to show "here's the Esperanto word, and here's the English meaning associated with it" (or vice versa, linguistically). But in this case, we're not trying to teach the kids the language; we're not trying to teach them associations between Esperanto words and English ones (or vice versa). We're just trying to show them a bunch of Esperanto words so they can see what Esperanto words look like. Technically, we really don't even need the English translations there at all... they're just incidental to the goal of that section (of course, when we give them the English translations, they can play with using those words meaningfully... but that's not really the primary goal, the primary goal is just to show them the words). We could, in theory, just list a bunch of Esperanto words and say, "there, there are some basic Esperanto words that you can learn, as the section title promises". The English translations provided as asides are just icing to spice up the words, not information they are expected to learn associatively.

But most importantly, I don't know if everyone does this, but whenever I read text that has a table in the middle of it... I don't read the table. ^_^; I read the surrounding text to find out what I am expected to see in the table, and refer back to the table to see what the text was talking about. I don't actually sit there and read through a table. Tables are like figures, or illustrations... they add to whatever the primary text is... but they, themselves, aren't the primary text. Me, personally (and I would imagine most people, especially kids), I find it more natural to scan down a list than to parse a table. Tables are just unnatural - first you have to examine the structure of the table (is it vertical or horizontal), then you have to examine how the data is laid out (English or Esperanto first?), then you begin scanning the table, all the while keeping in mind the structure and layout so what you're scanning makes sense. On the other hand, a list is a list - people make lists naturally without thinking (shopping lists, to-do lists, etc.). Lists are just natural and easy to understand - the only drawback is they're not great at formatting associated data.. but again, that's not the goal here.

But you know, really, this is all moot. What should be done is someone should make templates for the book, so the word lists for every language look like this:

...

And for a more complicated example:

...

And then, all the languages in the book will be formatted the same.

I may even do that myself one day... but I have other projects to focus on for the time being. --Indiana (talk) 04:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * The interesting prospect of templates such as you describe makes the tables-versus-lists question that much more important to resolve (although I actually have in mind another target for templating: I've more than half worked out how to set up a system of templates so we can easily generate correctly formatted vocabulary boxes that automatically extract the correct definition from the glossary).

 * Here are two thoughts on the other side of the question.

 * I suggest that the list format is not so easy to read — or, to be precise, each individual entry in these lists is not so easy to read. More so for the phrases.  My basis for this is rather primal (although I'm afraid I won't express it very well, not being a perceptual psychologist, or whatever the name is for someone who would know the scholarly name for this effect):  the use of a punctuation mark to separate the foreign-language phrase from its English translation requires extra mental effort for the reader, because they have to assimilate the whole to sort out which glyph is the separator before they can do the more rapid sort of processing on each half that becomes possible when you know what frame of mind to approach it with.  The more unfamiliar the script of the other language is, the harder this separation task is.  A table makes this trivial, by providing a visual separation between the two that can be processed before the reader even begins to assess either version of the phrase.  Each of the two versions of the phrase is then easier to process, because the reader does know what frame of mind to approach each version with.  It seems to me that if you are looking through a text in a strange language, and you unexpectedly hit several consecutive words in English, it will take you a moment longer (an "extra neuron firing" is the way I often describe this sort of thing) to process than if you had gone into it already expecting English, because you have to decide that it is English, switch out of your admiring-an-unfamiliar-language mode, and switch into your reading-English mode.

 * I think there is an associative component to what we'd like to gently get across. No, I certainly agree, we aren't trying to teach the language; but ideally, we'd like with these few words and phrases to suggest the "look and feel" of the language, and the parallelisms between the different entries here carry some of that, which is communicated better by the table format than by the list format.

 * --Pi zero (talk) 15:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Hm, perhaps. As i said, i didn't really give it all that much thought before doing it - i made it as a list, and just copy-pasted it and left it because it looked presentable. I figured they would have to be redone with templates anyway someday, so it didn't matter how I formatted it. With templates, the tables-versus-lists questions becomes a book-wide decision, which I consider beyond my scope.

 * How about a mid-way measure between tables and lists? Something like this:

 * The big space there between the languages makes the separation natural - no parsing of any letters or symbols required. But at the same time there are no distracting lines and borders, and no need to try and figure out what structure the data's in. --Indiana (talk) 17:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Interesting. Whereas my attitude toward the visible lines is that they make it easier to zip visually from one side of the table to the other without having to work at which item on the right aligns with the element one started at on the left (or vice versa).  So I like the visible lines (depending on details of format, of course).  Seems I'm preferring somewhat more structured layout and somewhat less structured choice of content.  --Pi zero (talk) 14:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

title: Wikijunior talk:Languages/Esperanto


text:
User:Kneiphof/Things I've learned about English

 * no w body >> nobody
 * thous e nd >> thousand
 * major a ty >> majority
 * almo u st >> almost

... and a lot about grammar!

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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User talk:Kneiphof/Things I've learned about English

I hope I didn't bug you too much. Actually, I was very interested by the page you were writing. I only speak one language well (English), but I greatly admire anyone that can be conversational in many languages.--Starchildmom 22:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it can be somewhat discouraging when you see that you've made a mistake in every line, but I really would like to improve my English, so I uppreciate your corrections. Please proofread the page about Dutch language, because that was me who've written it. Kneiphof 23:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't be discouraged. Your English is pretty good. I have proofread many offline written works by native speakers that were far more riddled with errors. The errors I corrected on your page were very minor. I actually figure them for typos, not real errors. I am going to go read the Dutch page right now. Starchildmom 23:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


text:
User:Wutasumi~enwikibooks

Wutasumi uses Wikipedia under the same name. I edit unfrequently, and honestly don't do much there. My greatest accomplishment is writing most of the ancient greek theatre article, and even then I was too retarded to write under my username.

title: User:Wutasumi~enwikibooks


text:
Wikijunior talk:Languages/Dutch

In the song, which is lovely, I changed the spelling of "see" (as in vision) to "sea" (as in ocean). I wanted to make a note of it here in case I was wrong in changing it. --Starchildmom 23:31, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No one considers Ĳ and Y to be the same thing. That's why both exist.--DasRakel (talk) 12:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add a reference to "Dutch Cognates - words that dutch language has very similar with English, German and French"
Herewith an assist. Sincerely, --SvenAERTS (discuss • contribs) 21:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Quick-wins: Dutch language has quite some words in common with English, French and German. Do you know what cognates are?
Cognates are words that are very similar in different languages. Example. In English: "the temperature", is "de temperatuur" in Dutch. In french it is "la température" and in German they say "die Temperatur". Pretty similar aren't they? If you are a witted kind of person, you can help building such a list of cognates in Project Cognates, where there is a list of cognates Dutch has in common with English and French.

title: Wikijunior talk:Languages/Dutch


text:
Talk:Consciousness Studies/Other Explanations

I don't trust this, I'd like it fact checked.


text:
Talk:Consciousness Studies/BioPsychoSociology

I don't like this, I think it should be checked up on.

 * There is a problem with a book of this type that may best be answered by an "Other explanations" section. RobinH 11:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC) PS: it is good to have another contributor around - have you thought of getting a userid?

This page is a joke. Get someone good to work over this entire "book." It is like a page written in 1996 by a sophomore undergrad who just took a single course by a biased prof. Seriously, the lack of neuroscience, the lack of data, it is awful. And the philosophy is awful. The Churchlands aren't eliminativists about consciousness. Read their actual work, not what people say about them. They are eliminativists about propositional attitudes, not consciousness (or mental representations more generally). This embodies the biases and ignorance of a blog entry. Very annoying, useless will not cite it in my book on consciousness. I am dumber having read any of this.

Please correct the text - this is a Wikibook. RobinH (talk) 22:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Consciousness Studies/The Conflict

About the Subject-Object paradox section. When I did a search the first result for "Subject-Object paradox" was this page. I'm very suspicious of this section since:

1- It does not seem paradoxical that something could be an object and a subject at the same time ( why are they exclusive properties?) 2- It may well constitute original research as presented. 3- It seems fairly obscure.

 * It is a well known route into discussions of consciousness. Self consciousness is circular: if I am conscious of me then I am conscious of me being conscious of me then.... The term "subject-object" paradox used here has 41 hits on google. There are hardly any words in the section by the authors so it cannot really constitute original research! The paradox, or circularity, of self consciousness is not obscure. The "homunculus paradox" has only 10 hits on google but is universally known (why only 10 hits? - seems odd?).

title: Talk:Consciousness Studies/The Conflict


text:
User:Tastyratz

hey! thanks for the help on the modification wiki, but did you try clicking on the hyperlinks? you just typed a bunch of entries onto the main menu under the links. please move your entries into the submenu for the topic. click on "DIFFERENTIAL" and "KA24 and KA24DE" to see what I am talking about, thanks..

title: User:Tastyratz


text:
Talk:Consciousness Studies/The Conflict2

"Descartes pointed out one of the major problems for Idealism, he noticed that even if experience is like a dream it might contain consistent relationships that could be called "science" and hence be indistinguishable from the realist idea of the world."

I've deleted this since it's not a problem for idealism at all, if anything idealists would regard it as a demonstration of how their ideas could work.

 * This was quite central to Descartes' approach. From Descartes' viewpoint there is a type of idealism and a type of physicalism that are indistinguishable. It is probably worth getting this across - what do you think? RobinH 11:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I also deleted something that pointed out Descartes' limited scientfic knowledge when describing his views on unextended substances, it was a POV insertion since it implies the advance of science has made these views untenable.


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/weblinks

In your quest to modify your nissan 240sx you may find the following links useful:

=Forums=

National
http://www.zilvia.net

http://www.240sxforums.com

http://www.7tune.com

http://www.club240.com/forums

http://forums.freshalloy.com

http://www.nissansilvia.com

http://www.ka-t.org

http://www.sr20forum.com

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php?

Regional
(New England) - http://forums.240sxone.com/

(Carolinas) - http://www.carolinanissans.com/

(Norcal) - http://www.ncda.net/forums

(Norcal) - http://www.nor-cal240sx.com

(Midwest) - http://www.midwest240sx.com

(SW Missouri) - http://clubnosm.com/phpBB/index.php

(Northwest) - http://www.northwestnissans.com/

(Southeast) - http://240atlanta.com

(Mid-Atlantic) - http://www.MA240sx.net

=Info Pages= Factory Service Manuals - http://www.zeroyon.com

Factory Service Manual alternate link - http://www.vosko.net/media/fsm/

Another FSM Source - http://www.carfiche.com/

Lets Radio - http://www.lazypenguin.net/letsradio/

Racing Seat Weights - http://www.supercarx.com/articles/specifications/seat_guide.htm

An enthusiast’s web site which includes how-to articles and project progress - http://www.project-mayhem04.com/index2.htm

=Retailers= http://www.frsport.com

http://www.201motorsports.com

http://www.7tune.com

http://www.j-ondemand.com

http://www.splparts.com

http://www.pdm-racing.com

http://www.turbo240.com

http://www.xatracing.com

http://www.driftfactory.com

http://www.wiringspecialties.com

http://www.phase2motortrend.com

http://www.enjukuracing.com

http://www.rbmotoring.com

http://www.jspec.com

http://www.projectnissan.com

http://www.performancenissanparts.com

http://www.tougefactory.com

http://www.sensemotorsport.com

http://www.justjap.com

http://www.240sxmotoring.com

http://shop.hybridynamics.com/

http://www.hayakuracing.com/store/

http://www.rs-enthalpy.com/

http://www.enjukuracing.com/

http://www.bikirom.com/

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/

http://www.advancedjapautoimports.com.au


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Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Control Arms/Reviews

Please write your own reviews as applicable. Please only reply if you have owned the pieces yourself. Also please include your email address for reference.

Battle Version
I personally have every piece replaced with Battle Version linkage and I have been extremely impressed. No visible wear on any of the pieces after many track days and a year of daily driving. Excellent customer service as well. - DJPimpFlex@hotmail.com

Tein
I have Tein inner tie rods. They were very cheep, S14/Z32 size and came with the inner spacers to help with the steering angle. - DJPimpFlex@hotmail.com

KTS
I have had their outer tie rods and I have been impressed with the quality of the pieces. Very nicely made and improve the steering feel greatly. I wouldn’t run them for daily driving because the pot holes and constant movement and jolts may wear them prematurely. - DJPimpFlex@hotmail.com

Energy Suspension
I have these for my steering rack bushings. Also helped with the steering feel and they were much cheaper than nismo's comparable units. - DJPimpFlex@hotmail.com

I have the ES Master bushing kit for my 89... great kit for the price. Keep in mind that the install is quite a job, most of the bushings you eed to remove have a metal collar that will either need to be pressed out, or more than likely if you're doing it yourself, cut out with a hacksaw. Once installed the kit is great. - zackt69@hotmail.com

SPL Parts
I'm running SPL T/C rods and tie rods w/ Z32 inner tie rods. All the parts have performed as expected, and there is literally no play in the front end at all. VERY thick, sturdy parts at a good price. - IMPerfection

Chrome plated pieces easily rust but are fine after powder coating. Shinhed

Megan Racing
I installed Megan Racing traction control links and toe control rods on my S13 a couple of months ago and have not had any problems so far. They have held up just fine under some spirited driving and they show no signs of wear, rust, etc. I've been under the car several times since I installed them and the parts are cinched in as tightly as the day that I installed them.


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Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Transmission/short shifter reviews

=ISR= The best I have seen on the market is the ISR. It has a completely new housing, and is very easy to install. It is cheaper than the B&M. ISR is a new company and is now being recognized for having very solid products. Give them a try and you will not be disappointed.

=Fidanza=

Hint: NEVER take the shifter off the bass B&M provides. If you do it will never shift the same again. ALWAYS remove the assembly, plate and shifter, as one unit. :-)


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Transmission/Clutch Reviews

=ACT= (cost)

Not my preferred clutch. Friction material tends to shear off with aggressive driving. Also has an extremely stiff pressure plate. This helps with increased load bearing, but places a high load on the thrust bearings of the engine.

=Clutch Masters FX400= $485.00

This is my single plate design of choice. Not real good wear if used for daily driving in stop and go traffic and areas that require you to stop on hills (Seattle, San Francisco). The pressure plate is not overly stiff, just solid. The clutch relys on a good strong ceramic friction material to do the work. The feel is that of an on/off switch, instant and strong engagement.

=Exedy Stage 1 (SR20DET)= (cost)

This is a single plate, organic clutch upgrade for the SR20DET motor. The pedal effort is very close to stock and the feel is also close to stock. Its rated up to 240lbs of torque, so its only for lightly modified cars. I am a little dissapointed with it and I wish I went with a harsher clutch/lightweight flywheel set up.

=XTD Stage 3 Racing Clutch= $129.00 on EBAY

This is a 6 puck MIBA copper ceramic clutch. I have had mine for about 30,000 miles on my NA/KA. the enguagement is pretty stiff and took a little bit to get used to, but once I did it got fun. My car can launches hard and I can pop the clutch and spin tires if I want to on my stock KA. They are rated to 320HP

Some recent stage 3 clutch pressure plate has very light pedal pressure. It's not a very solid feeling and definitely not suitable for drifting.


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/KA24DE and KA24E/Header/header reviews

Several Brands of Headers are Available for the 240SX Including:

OBX
EGR inlet on the headers didn't line up well with the EGR pipe running from behind the engine. Had to extend the o2 sensor wire. The steering bolt scraps the headers causing car to "catch" briefly. Irritating, but you can notice a reasonable power gain.

Greddy
The Greddy header is a 4-1 short header design that bolts to a secondary "downpipe" that ends at the location of the stock cat. These headers are prone to cracking, welds giving up around the collector and the flange on the head. These headers are very loud.

DC Sports
Dyno Results of the DC Sports 4-2-1 Header on the KA24DE.


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Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Ignition and Fuel Management/MAF

A Mass Air Flow Sensor (MAFS) measures the amount of air that has passed through the intake. This information is used by the ECU to determine how much fuel should be mixed with the air.

The limit of a stock 240SX MAFS can be mixed with enough fuel to generate about 250hp. Air flow beyond this amount is not properly metered, meaning not enough fuel will mix with the air. This can lead to engine detonation (air/fuel mixture exploding spontaneously in the combustion chamber before the spark plug fires), and can destroy an engine.

One method for modification to a MAFS is to "trick" the sensor, in conjunction with larger flow injectors. For instance, the popular 370cc injectors swapped the SR20 engine will flow approximately 30% more fuel than stock injectors. By increasing the cross-sectional area of the intake piping by 30%, the MAFS unwittingly sends the correct signal to an standard ECU to mix a good A/F ratio. This technique should be used with caution because if you are using a turbo to increase air flow and a modified intake pipe, the ECU will adjust the air/fuel ratio but not the ignition timing and this can damage the engine. Some options to counter this problem are to back off the base timing, or use a product such as MSD's Boost Timing Master to retard the timing under boost.

The safer, and more popular modifications for a MAFS are to swap with other units that can meter more air. This is typically done in combination with an upgraded ECU and injectors. The Z32 MAFS is probably the most popular. The Q45 MAFS is another option, and some have reported success with a Ford Mustang MAFS. Your ECU must be aware of this change. Jim Wolf Tech offers reprogrammed ECUs for Z32 and Mustang MAFS.


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Ignition and Fuel Management/Aftermarket ECU

Aftermarket ECU's

Engines in today’s cars are controlled by computers known as engine control units or ECU’s. These ECU’s control all aspects of the motor’s operation, including ignition, timing, fuel delivery and spark. They are programmed to deliver a specific balance of air and fuel to the motor. This balance is also known as the air/fuel ratio (a/f ratio) When the motor is modified with upgraded components such as larger injectors, bigger turbo, cams, boost level, air fuel meter, the stock ECU is unable to maintain the proper air fuel ratio. A lack or overabundance of air or fuel will blow the motor. To prevent this from happening, aftermarket companies also manufacture ECU upgrades to allow the motor to run with the upgraded components and provide the proper a/f ratio and ultimately increase horsepower, torque and overall performance.

There are 2 types of fuel computers: Piggyback and standalone. Piggyback fuel computers only control ignition timing and fuel delivery. The stock ECU controls all other functions of the motor. Standalone fuel computers are a "plug and play" setup where you replace the stock ECU with the aftermarket ECU. The after market standalone controls all aspects of the engine.

HKS FCon VPro

Apex Power FC

AEM EMS

Motec

Haltech

MegaSquirt


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Ignition and Fuel Management/Piggyback Computers

A piggy back EMS system intercepts the signals from the load sensors, modifies them, then inputs them into the ECU. This can be an effective way to tune your engine.


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Shocks and Springs/shock reviews

KYB AGX
Adjustability- 4 way front/8 way rear

Price-$419

KYB GR2
Adjustability- Non adjustable

Price- S13-$209 S14-$309

Koni Yellows
Adjustability- They are, but I cant find out how much.

Price- $659

Other Features- Lifetime Warentee

Tokiko HP
Adjustability- non adjustable

Price- $404


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Shocks and Springs/spring reviews

Espelir
Spring Rates - 20%-30% more than stock.

Drop - S14 Drop = 30mm Front / 25mm Rear S13 Drop = 50mm Front / 30mm Rear

Price - $219

DropZone
Spring Rates -

Drop - 2" Front/2" Rear

Price - $99

RSR Race
Spring Rates - 5k Front/ 4.5k Rear

Drop - 1.4" Front/ 1.2" Rear

Price - $298

Tein H-Tech
Spring Rates -

Drop - S13- .9" Front/ .6" Rear S14- .7" Front/ .4" Rear

Price - S13- $177 S14- $192

Tein S-Tech
Spring Rates -

Drop - S13- 1.5" Front/ 1.2" Rear S14- 1.3" Front/ .9" Rear

Price - S13- $160 S14- $184

Eibach Sportline
PROGRESSIVE Spring Rates - S13 -Front- 119 lbs/in (2.130 kg/mm)to 234 lbs/in (4.189 Kg/mm) -Rear- 128.5 lbs/in (2.262 kg/mm)to 199 lbs/in (3.554 Kg/mm)

Drop - S13- 2.2" Front/ 2.1" Rear S14- 1.7" Front/ 1.4" Rear

Price - $229

Eibach Prokit
Spring Rates - S13 -Front- 114 lbs/in (2.036 kg/mm)to 199 lbs/in (3.554 Kg/mm) -Rear- 114 lbs/in (2.036 kg/mm)to 148 lbs/in (2.643 Kg/mm)

Drop - S13- 1.8" Front/ 1.6" Rear S14- 1.2" Front/ 1" Rear

Price - $214


text:
Nissan 240SX Performance Modification/Coilovers/coilover reviews

Spl Parts KTS Coilovers
Spring Rates - 8k Front / 6k Rear

Adjustability - 15 way shock adjustable Front and Rear. Dual Ride Height adjustability. Camber Adjustment in the front.

Other Features - Inverted monoshock design. Pillow ball upper mounts.

Price - $1045

Tein Super Drift Coilovers
Spring Rates - 10k Front / 8k Rear

Adjustability - 16 way shock adjustable. Dual ride height adjustable

Other Features - EDFC Compatible.

Price- $1396

Tein SS Coilovers
Spring Rates -

Adjustability - 15 way adjustable

Other Features - Does NOT come with upper mounts, aftermarket or OEM must be used.

JIC FLA-2
Spring Rates -

Adjustability - 15 Way shock adjustable front and rear. Dual height adjustment.

Other Features - 40MM and 45mm pistons filled with high pressure nitrogen gas. S13 model comes with helper springs in the rear.

Price- $1700

JIC FLA-1
Spring Rates - 7k Front/ 5k Rear

Adjustability - 5 way shock adjustment.

Other Features - Twin Tube Nitrogen gas dampner. Front pillow ball mounts and rear busings.

Price-$1,199

Cusco Comp Zero2
Spring Rates -

Adjustability - 5 way shock adjustability. Dual height adjustment.

Other Features -

Price- $2,045

Silk Road Rm/A8
Spring Rates - S14- 8k Front/7k Rear S13 8k Front/6 or 7k Rear

Adjustability - 8 way Shock adjustment. Dual height adjustment. Front Camber adjustment.

Other Features - Inverted Monotube design.

Price- $1,499

Megan Racing Pro Coilovers
Spring Rates - 8k Front/ 6k Rear

Adjustability - 32 Level Shock adjustment. Dual adjustable ride height. Camber adjustment in the front.

Other Features - Pillow ball upper mounts. Rust/Dust Covers. Single Cylinder design.

Price-$899

Megan Racing Track Coilovers
Spring Rates - 12k Front/ 10k Rear

Adjustability - 32 Level Shock adjustment

Other Features - Revalved shocks to match the stiffer spring rates.

Price-$899

Tanabe Sustec Pro SS Coilovers
Spring Rates - S13 - 8k Front/6k Rear S14 - 6k front/4k rear

Adjustability - Dual ride height adjustment. 4 front and 4 or 8 rear shock adjustment.

Other Features - Helper springs.

Price-$850

Tanabe Sustec Pro SS II Coilovers
Spring Rates - S13 - 8k Front/6k Rear S14 - 6k front/4k rear

Adjustability - Dual ride height adjustment. 4 front and 4 or 8 rear shock adjustment.

Other Features - The Type II model of the Sustec Pro S-S suspension is a non-helper spring model that features a longer main coil spring. It is highly affordable for a high caliber suspension.

Price- $2,095

Tanabe Sustec Pro S-0C Coilovers
Spring Rates - S13 - 8k Front/6k Rear S14 - 6k front/4k rear

Adjustability - Dual ride height adjustment.

Other Features - Unique double cylinder design. Uses stock upper mounts.

Price- $1949

Tanabe Sustec Pro S0-C II Coilovers
Spring Rates - S13 - 8k Front/6k Rear S14 - 6k front/4k rear

Adjustability - Dual ride height adjustment.

Other Features - Same as the S-0C, but without the helper springs.

Price- $765


text:
User:Sj/Whole Earth Catalog

''This was a proposed wikibook, originally at Whole Earth Catalog. The idea was to reproduce the original, updated with modern information about its contents and where to acquire them; as the WEC was effectively a textbook/manual on how to live a full and independent life, this is more suitable as a wikibook than its title alone might suggest. I still hope to carry out this project, but do not currently have access to a convenient way to scan the small-type 9"x12" pages. Sj''

This is a recreation of the original Whole Earth Catalog, with updated notes about the catalog entries alongside the original content. For images of the original pages, see commons:Whole Earth Catalog

FUNCTION
''The WHOLE EARTH CATALOG functions as an evaluation and access device. With it, the user should know better what is worth getting and where and how to do the getting.''

An item is listed in the CATALOG if it is deemed:
 * 1) Useful as a tool,
 * 2) Relevant to independent education,
 * 3) high quality or low cost,
 * 4) easily available by mail.

CATALOG listings are continully revised according to the experience and suggestions of CATALOG users and staff.

PURPOSE
''We are as gods and might as well get good at it. So far, remotely done power and glory - as via government, big business, formal education, church - has succeeded to the point where gross defects obscure actual gains. In repsonse to this dilemme and to these gains a realm of intimate, personal power is developing — power of the individual to conduct his own education, find his own inspiration, shape his own environment, and share his adventure with whoever is interested. Tools that aid this process are sought and promoted by the WHOLE EARTH CATALOG.''

title: User:Sj/Whole Earth Catalog


text:
Travels With Charley: In Search of America

Travels with Charley: Search of America is a travelogue by American author John Steinbeck. It documents the driving trip he took with his poodle, Charley, around the United States in the 1960s. He wrote that he was moved by a desire to see his country on a personal level, since he made his living writing about it. He had many questions going into his journey, the main one being "What are Americans like today". However, he found that the "new America" did not live up to his expectations.

He traveled throughout the United States in a specially made camper called Rocinante, named after the horse of Don Quixote. He started his travels in Long Island, New York. His trip was one that outlined the border of the United States, going all throughout the North, through the Pacific Northwest, down into his native Salinas Valley, across to Texas, up through the Deep South, and then back to New York. His whole trip encompassed nearly 10,000 miles.

Summaries: Part 1
In the two chapters of Part 1, Steinbeck describes his life long wanderlust and his preparations to travel the country after 25 years. He is 58 years old in 1960 and at the end of his career, but he felt that he "was writing of something he did not know about, and it seemed to him that in a so-called writer this is criminal" (6). He has a truck custom-designed for his journey and plans on leaving after Labor Day from his home in Sag Harbor, Long Island, New York. Steinbeck must delay his trip slightly due to Hurricane Donna which makes a direct hit on Long Island. He demonstrates his determination and toughness, even at his age, in wading out in the harbor at the height of the storm to save his boat the Fayre Eleyne.

Long Island to Connecticut (pages 19-42)
In the first chapter of Part Two, Steinbeck begins his trip, traveling by ferry (boat) from Long Island to Connecticut. Whilst on a ferry, Steinbeck cautiously watches a group of submarines surface, and discusses the new atomic submarines with a sailor as they approach the Naval Submarine Base New London where many of the new nuclear submarines are stationed. This introduces a theme that hangs over this chapter as Steinbeck notes that the "submarines are armed with mass murder, our silly, only way of deterring mass murder" (21). He talks to a sailor stationed on a sub who enjoys being on them because they offer all kinds of – future” (22). Steinbeck seems to credit this uncertainty about the future to rapid technological and political changes. He mentions the wastefulness of American cities (start with second paragraph of article to see how NYC "dealt" with waste problems) and society, and the large amount of waste as a result of everything being "packaged" (as he passes Hartford and Providence). Moving on, Steinbeck purchases a large quantity of liquors. Then, he meets a friendly farmer who allows him to park on his property; the two discuss Kruschev and politics. Steinbeck discusses many common points brought up in society today. That stage in life where everyone has to slow down because they are “not as young as they once were” is one of the barriers he mentions. He goes on to say that he would rather not settle down. He wants to live life as long as he can (19). He also brings up that as we grow old, and aren’t able to do as much as we would like it, we tend to get sympathy and concern from a lot of people. This makes the oldest of the family almost become baby like. Steinbeck comments that he would rather be a grown adult than a big baby (20). He has a discussion with a farmer in the White Mountains about Krushchev’s visit to the United Nations and the approaching presidential election. The two seem to conclude that a combination of fear and uncertainty over the future has limited discussion over the election. Steinbeck seems to learn more about local people through morning radio, although he notes that due to the Top 40: "If Teen-Age Angel is top of the list in Maine, it is the top of the list in Montana" (35).

Reading Guide Questions for pages 19-42

 * What causes the fears people seem to have of the future at this time?
 * Why might Steinbeck feel that the beginning of the nuclear age is limiting political discussion?
 * Do the new national charts (Top 40) minimize regional cultural differences?
 * What do you think are some events or reasons why America wastes so much more than other countries?

Maine (pages 43-74)
Steinbeck starts off this part of his journey on US Highway 1 for a visit to Maine. On his way to Maine he notices a commonality between most of the “summer” stores. They are all closed for the winter. Antique shops, that border a lot of the roads up North, sell old “junk” that Steinbeck would buy if he thought he had room for it. During his trip, he stops at a little restaurant just outside the town of Bangor. It’s here he learns that other people’s attitudes can greatly affect your own attitude. As his journey to discover America continues, Steinbeck heads towards Deer Isle. He decides to go to Deer Isle because a friend of his went every time he traveled to Maine. His friend always raved about Deer Isle, Maine, but could never describe exactly what about it was so captivating. When Steinbeck arrived at the house where he was supposed to stay, he met a very terse cat and ate the best lobster he had ever tasted. For the final part of his visit to Maine, Steinbeck traveled around several towns throughout the state and visited popular outdoor clothing stores such as Abercrombie and Fitch.

In this section, Steinbeck makes quite a few references to the changes in the culture of America in this segment. The first change that he makes apparent early on in this section is the waitress in the restaurant of an auto court located outside of Bangor. This waitress sucked all of the happiness out of everyone with her dismal attitude. He, being tired from a long day of driving, could not resist and had his happiness drained away. To add to his depression, many of the hotel items were covered in plastic, making the room feel less homely and welcome. It was only when Charley made Steinbeck walk him and he saw the Aurora Borealis did he regain his joy and awe of this country. This incident is an example of the change of American culture from a homely society to a protect-by-alienation society.

Another change he noticed was during his journey to Deer Isle. Being a man who constantly finds himself lost he asked a state trooper for directions. He had been warned, later on of course, to never ask a local for directions because they will often mislead you. While the officer did NOT mislead him, being that he is bound by the law to assist, he did not say a word to Steinbeck. He merely pointed and motioned to the destination in which he wanted to go. Through this act the officer displayed that people had become less trusting of those they did not know. Aroostook County, being one of the three great potato producers of our country according to Steinbeck, during the planting/harvesting season is home to many French Canadians who have crossed the border to make a small profit. In his travels to northern Maine before turning west, Steinbeck came across one such family of workers. While cautious at first, the Canucks, as they have come to be called, were very friendly with Steinbeck. As an act of good will Steinbeck opened an old bottle of Cognac he was saving for a special occasion, and it was with this that the family really became sociable. While not exactly American, the Canucks display that small part that still exists inside those of the time. Although the threat of Communism appeared to everywhere and everyone had to be cautious, inside they were all just as friendly as the Canucks.

Most of this section was to remind people that Maine was very large and although vastly empty as far as person per square mile went still very much an important aspect of the United States’ culture in the 1950’s. The auto court, the protective yet bothersome aspect of life, the state trooper being an embodiment of many suspicious and cautious people, and Aroostook County being a place of un-American yet inner American migrant farmers.

Upstate New York and Niagara Falls (74-94)
On pages 74-94, Steinbeck travels to the Niagara Falls. As he travels on, he experiences the way people are different everywhere he goes. He describes how wherever you go people’s attitudes and beliefs are going to change depending on where you are. For example, when he went to New England, he saw that people there spoke tersely and usually waited for the newcomer to come up to them and confront them. He explained how strangers talked more freely without caution as a sense of longing for something new and being somewhere other than the place they were. They were so used to their everyday life that when someone new came to town, they were eager to explore new information and imagine new places. John Steinbeck talks about a lot of different things he comes across. He talks about the Connecticut River at points and how he doesn’t remember it being so long and wide. On his way navigating the river he comes across a motel, but to his disappointment, it is empty. He spends the night in his car with Charley and leaves the next morning feeling like he was a trespasser. Going up the Connecticut to New England also drew his attention as he saw people’s attitudes change. New Englanders were more to themselves, so Steinbeck would have to come up to each of them for help.

Niagara Falls [W:Niagra Falls|Niagara] is one of the largest water falls in North America, and also serves as the borderline between New York (United States) and Canada. Steinbeck talks about how when he was younger, the laws of getting into and out of Canada were a lot less limiting then they were now. He becomes angry when he is forced to turn around to go get Charley vaccinated before moving on.

Traveling further, Steinbeck discovers that America and technology is quickly advancing to give Americans instant gratification. Vending machines became a big part of America, and started at Steinbeck’s early age. They started off as snack machines only, but through more advanced technology, they can fit whole meals that Steinbeck gets, such as hot soup, coffee, toiletries and even aspirin by simply putting money in a machine. He is very impressed with how the technology seemed to get better in his absence.

Steinbeck’s last day in Vermont is a Sunday, and he puts on his best suit, shaves, and combs his hair to go to church. Sitting in the John Knox church and listening to the minister gave him a new perspective on sins in life. They weren’t just tiny things that were harmful to children, but should also be considered as big things, that should be taken with dignity. The minister says they are “No damn good”. Steinbeck is so impressed, he gives the church five dollars, and stays after to shake hands with and speak to the minister.

Truck drivers now-a-days are always seen on roadways, but to find them at rest stops and actually talk to them was a thrill for Steinbeck. He notices how these people are just like the men he met out at sea, who have touched base in every major port in the world, and how truckers are similar only on land. He is fascinated how they set goals for their work, and know almost everything there is to know about America, from the driving, to the rest stops and waitresses. He likes talking to them because they open up to him more, as do other people in Mid-western states. He can also see small towns, become big cities from when he was a boy, and loves the idea of knowing where you’re going, but remembering where you’re coming from.

Reading Guide Questions for pages 74-94

 * How have the advancements of technology affected the attitudes and beliefs of American citizens?
 * Why do you think that Steinbeck writes about the government and what reasons do you find for him disliking the government?
 * How did people's attitudes in different states affect the way John Steinbeck viewed America?
 * How has traveling changed since Steinbeck's time (motels, interstates, and highways)??

Midwest Cities (95-125)
In the beginning of the section, John Steinbeck travels to the Midwest states. As he travels he notices a change in the growth of cities in the Midwest versus the last time he went (pg 105, 95). Also, he notices the overall family population growing. As he begins to talk to the locals he makes the point of contrasting the emotions of people in the north versus people in the Midwest. Another thing that was mentioned a lot during this section were the stereotype of a woman. They are often used for advertising during this time period (pg 117-118). He says that they welcomed a newcomer in their town with warmth and curiosity unlike people in New England (pg 107-108).

Traveling further, Steinbeck notices the advancing technology, which leads him to the overall curiosity about Mobile homes. One of the important things he notices are the house hold appliances and the televisions. Televisions become colored during this time period which was a huge impact in the technological industry (98-99). He begins interviewing families that live their life in a mobile home. They discuss points like, if you are living in a mobile home and you are ready to move on to a new place or job, you simply "pick up" your mobile home and leave (pg 95-104).

As he moves deeper in the Midwest, Steinbeck begins to see the colors of the people living down there. He realizes that the number of people immigrating to America has changed over time. He learns that because of immigration in the past it effects a families "roots" and discovers the Nationality act of 1965. He makes conversation with a man that enters his camping site, and discovers more about the lifestyle that development since his last trip there (110-113). At the end of the section, John Steinbeck starts to develop a character in his mind called Lonesome Harry while he was sitting in a room. This character develops and takes life until the end of the section (223-225).

Reading Guide Questions for pages 95-125

 * Do you think that if your family comes from some place foreign or their heritage is not American, their ways of life will be different from a typical American?
 * Do you think one area of the United States is more materialistic than the others?

Wisconsin and North Dakota (125-157)
In the Wisconsin and North Dakota section of Travels with Charley, Steinbeck travels to many places such as Sauk Centre and Illinois. Sauk Centre is a city Steinbeck travels through to get to North Dakota. Sauk Centre was also home to Sinclair Lewis whom Steinbeck knew. Upon stopping in the visitors center, he laments at being forced to leave behind the wondrous W.P.A Guides To The States. Some other places he mentioned include St. Paul and Minneapolis. Minneapolis is the largest city in Minnesota. Steinbeck gets lost in the city to which one person replies, "How can you get lost in Minneapolis?"

Steinbeck stops at a diner for directions and realizes that our American society is oblivious to its surrounding, life, and culture. Steinbeck mentions that Americans have put "cleanliness first, at the expense of taste" (141) (as he travels through Fargo, North Dakota), and that the mentality of our nation has grown bland. Allowing his thoughts to slip back to his time in Minnesota, Steinbeck says, "It looks as though the natural contentiousness of people has died" (142) implying the seemingly political ignorance that the society seemed to cling to, and bringing before our eyes the lack of risk our once rebellious nation now embraces. Throughout the section Steinbeck uses simple, symbolic entities he encounters in his travels to express his views of the mindset of the country. For instance, he goes on at one point to speak of a herd of turkey, and after casting criticism and ridicule at the source of Thanksgiving dinner, ends this string of insults with an unexpected transition to American life. He states, " And suddenly I thought of that valley of the turkeys and wondered how I could have the gall to think turkeys stupid. Indeed, they have an advantage over us. They are good to eat"(129). The section closes with John Steinbeck and Charley getting ready to head to Montana and encounter whatever epiphanies may come.

Steinbeck says “Do they find their emotional fare so bland that it must be ladened with sex and sadism through the medium of paperback.” He is speaking of how books with these aspects often draw more attention from the society of that day because these components made books more exciting and enjoyable to the people in society. When applied to a broader scale of things, life in general, things that are deemed as “bad” by society are more stimulating to many people of that society and even society today. When a form of entertainment is composed of these bad things such as “sex, sadism and homicide”, it becomes more appealing to society. He relates this to food because he believes that society “has put cleanliness first, instead of taste”, this applies what he is trying to get across with the books as well. Often society will sacrifice quality for what is exciting or arousing to them. What is deemed as acceptable by the society itself is mainly what populates the minds and thoughts of those in it. What is deemed “cool” is often used in place of the real quality of something far superior, but cast away into the darkness, fore it is deemed “unworthy” by those who cannot or will not value its worth.

Steinbeck speaks of politics of the time as not discussed much. “It seemed to me partly cautious and partly lack of interest, but strong opinions were just not stated”, by this Steinbeck is speaking of society being afraid to speak out. The society of the time was based on conformity, and speaking out against the government was like blasphemy. At the time there was much to be afraid of, if you spoke against the government or America or had anything to do with the sort, you might be accused of being a communist and even executed on terms of treason or espionage. Of course, the government needs to be spoken out against from time to time; there have been enough scandals to verify this. A few paragraphs after this Steinbeck meets a man who opens up a new understanding of political feeling of the time. After some conversation pertain to this, the man says “Oh, sure, hardly a day goes by that somebody doesn’t take a belt at the Russians.” It is revealed here that there is allot of hostility against the Russians at this time and many people blamed unfortunate mishappenings on them. In the society of time “Nobody can find fault with you if you take out after the Russians.” Once again conformity in society is seen, people used the Russians as a scapegoat for their own personal faults. As long as you stayed in one belief, against the Russians, you were secure from your own flaws. The man also states, “You think then we might be using Russians as an outlet for something else, other things” and "Why, I remember when people took everything out on Mr. Roosevelt” these two things put society and politics hand in hand yet again. In society mistakes are very unwanted, people want to be perfect and they want their country to be perfect. Society often takes every problem with itself or its environment on one centralized being or group. At that time it was the Russians.

Reading Guide Questions for pages 125-157

 * What does Steinbeck mean by Americans having put "cleanliness first, at the expense of taste?" How do you know?
 * John Steinbeck ties turkeys to humans at one point during his inner pondering. What statement may he being saying about American lifestyle and attitude in comparison to turkeys?
 * John Steinbeck talks about the evacuation route on US Highway 10 in this section. What do you think that the Evacuation Route symbolizes in society? What fears does it represent?

Montana, Yellowstone, Idaho, and Washington (158-180)
In this section Steinbeck notices differences between himself and other people, between his home life and the way life is for those in different states. "I am in love with Montana," says Steinbeck on page 158. He explains this as a place unaffected by television, and a place with kind, laid back individuals. "It seemed to me that the frantic bustle of America was not in Montana" (158). Here he also pays his respects to the Sioux chief Sitting Bull, which to him represents how people once were so infatuated with their land, they'd risk anything to keep it, fight until the end, like Sitting Bull and his fight for land.

In the next part of this section, Steinbeck is in Custer, at the battlefield of Little Big Horn. He travels through the Injun Country and thinks of an author who wrote a novel about war against the Nez Perce tribes. Steinbeck here shows a theme that opposes war, in his book, the author explains: "It was the saddest duty he had ever preformed" (160). Steinbeck and Charley then travel to Yellowstone National Park (161) which is a place that "is no more representative of America than Disneyland" (161). These parts, along with others from the book, are examples of the theme that your mood changes with your surroundings. This theme is also apparent when Charley sees the bears in Yellowstone. Steinbeck is surprised at his aggressive and crazy behavior (164).

The next visit is to the Great Divide in the Rocky Mountains. He thinks of the French explorers Lewis and Clark and wonders whether or not the men were impressed with what they found in America. This thought adds to the idea that the people who live in beautiful places, often don't realize it, and they take what they have for granted. He also expresses how the explorers would find modern people lazy. For instance, it took those men two and a half years to travel to the Pacific Ocean from St. Louis. Now, it takes just a month if you dawdle, a week if you drive, and five hours if you fly. Steinbeck makes people today seem small and sluggish, like if they don't have any real accomplishments even a tenth as remarkable as what these men did.

Finally, Steinbeck constantly shows that people are never happy staying in one place. He shows this through the eyes of the teenager he meets at the cabins. The teenager, along with many people in the book so far, are constantly wondering what it is like somewhere else, they are never content with what they have (171-172).

Reading Guide Questions for pages 158-180

 * Why was it so important for Steinbeck to visit General Custer and Sitting Bull?
 * Does Steinbeck's actions make him seem like a true American?
 * If you could change one thing about Americans what would it be? How would this impact America?
 * What is Steinbeck's point when he says that Yellowstone "is no more representative of America than Disneyland (161)."

Seattle, Oregon, and California (180-208)
In these pages Steinbeck visits the West Coast. First he goes to Seattle, Washington. He notices how much the city has changed. Before it was a small city sitting on a hill with lots of rural and country roads surrounding it, but now it has eight-lane highways and is a lot more industrialized. Steinbeck grew up around this area, so much of this section is him revisiting the area and seeing it’s changes and progressions. During this section Steinbeck makes a reflection when seeing the Columbia River (180) and how Lewis and Clark (180) must have felt when coming west. After this he notices the change that the west has underwent and he says on page 180 that “It was only as I approached Seattle that the unbelievable change became apparent.” A main point he states, while seeing all of this change and modernization is “I wonder why progress looks so much like destruction.”(181) This shows that he sees it as a possible detriment to the area and to the authenticity of the land.

Later on, while driving in Oregon he blows a tire and has to try to fix it, and he does just enough so that he gets to a small service station. There, a scary looking man (the owner) helps Steinbeck and arranges for larger tires to be brought to Steinbeck. This is when Steinbeck realizes that you can’t judge a person by appearance. Though the specialized tires were hard to come by, the problem was solved in mere hours by the unexpected generosity of the gas station attendant.

In the next section, Steinbeck focuses on the giant redwood trees (188) and ancient Sequoia Trees (195) that he has come to appreciate and adore in his lifetime. He says, “The vainest, most slap-happy and irreverent of men, in the presence of redwoods, goes under a spell of wonder and respect.”(189) This quote shows this appreciation, and more of the things he says to describe the trees really displays the way he is fearing this lack of appreciation as the times become more modern. “‘If I thought he did it out of spite or to make a joke,’ I said to myself, ‘I’d kill him out of hand.’”(191) Steinbeck thinks this to himself when his loyal companion Charley cannot appreciate the trees as he can.

In the next sections, he visits a bar of his youth where he meets and catches up with many friends, learning that a lot of regulars and childhood chums have passed away. Steinbeck thinks about how he is a ghost since all the people he grew up with were dead. He then heads up to Fremont’s Peakseems to say goodbye to his hometown for the last time. During the time it takes for him to say good bye he makes an allusion to a book by Thomas Wolfe You Can't Go Home Again(201) This section of the story is concluded with, “I printed once more on my eyes, south, west, and north, and then we hurried away from the permanent and changeless past where my mother is always shooting a wildcat and my father is always burning his name with his love.”(208). This shows that even though he knows the country is changing, his memories of the towns he lived in will always be with him.

Reading Guide Questions for pages 180-208

 * Based on the main ideas of this section of the reading, in your opinion what are Steinbeck’s beliefs on nature and the settlement of the West?
 * How do the Redwoods seem to affect Steinbeck?

Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, London (219-248)
This section of the story follows John Steinbeck and his dog Charley through Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico. He does not spend much time in Arizona or New Mexico, but he does appreciate the beauty of the vast mountains in those regions (227-230). We discover how close Steinbeck is to his dog, and get a deeper look at their relationship. The majority of the section is based on Texas where he spends a few days over Thanksgiving.

Upon arriving in Texas Steinbeck discovers that Charley is ill, but he took him to a veterinarian and learned that Charley merely had Prostatitis and that a few days stay would cure him (235). Steinbeck describes Texas and its different aspects that make it very unique from other states. He comments on the Panhandle which is the Northern most part of the state where Texas borders New Mexico and Oklahoma. Steinbeck also comments on the Rio Grande Valley, which is really a delta rather than a valley. Steinbeck felt that "people either passionately love or passionately hate Texas," referring to people who are just passersby like himself (229). He discusses a book about a tiny group of rich Texans that was written by Edna Ferber, and relates it to his own experience with a family similar to the one in the book. Steinbeck stays with this family with his wife who flew into the state to celebrate Thanksgiving. The two of them visit friends and have a Thanksgiving party. Also on Thanksgiving Steinbeck goes quail hunting with some of the men (235-242). He then goes on to talk about the black and white relations in the South compared to the relations in the North and in his hometown of Salinas, California, sharing the theory of "separate but equal’ (248). Steinbeck writes about the desegregation of schools and how there is a change in the North. In the southern states, such as Texas, he mentions a bit about how when people are not proud of something they have been involved in, that they don't like to welcome any witnesses, because they believe that witnesses may be the ones causing all the trouble. This enables him to revert back to his childhood in California, writing about an African-American family that he knew, the Coopers, and never seemed threatened by them or noticed much of a difference, relating back to black and white relations during that time.

In the last pages of this section, Steinbeck comments briefly on his home town of Salinas, California. “Although people around the country are individuals, certain customs and characteristics are similar,” (244). Steinbeck makes a number of statements about politics, human nature, and regional differences. In the quote above, he is stating that through out his travels he has noticed that no matter where you travel in the United States, the people might be different but our culture is for the most part everywhere. He realizes that although Americans are individuals and come from different regions, he also realizes that “there are many customs that assimilate then into like-minded people."

Steinbeck and Charley travel to London. They go see Big Ben. They discover that Charley has a fear of heights.

Reading Guide Questions for pages 219-248

 * When you traveled to a different state, was it different as your home state or the same?
 * Steinbeck says, “The south is a place of hatred, violence, and bigotry,” (pg. 243-248). Why do you think that Steinbeck feels this way about the south?
 * Do Steinbeck's comments about Texas reflect what he finds in the rest of the South?

New Orleans and Mississippi (249-273)
In the second to last chapter of Part Four, Steinbeck is drawn to the “distortion of normal life” (249) and leaves Texas in search of the so-called "Cheerleaders" (256) who are protesting the integration of black children in a school in New Orleans. Before reaching the city, Steinbeck welcomes in the “singing language of Acadia” (252) while recalling the memory of an old friend, Dr. St. Martin, who healed children and Cajuns. Upon entering New Orleans, Steinbeck immediately encounters the racism of the South and soon finds that racism was not only towards blacks, but also towards Jews, “ It’s the goddamn New York Jews cause all the trouble” (254). Steinbeck then experiences the “bestial and filthy” 257) show that the Cheerleaders put on while the black children entered school. The applause and praise of the crowd brought Steinbeck to realize that there were no thoughtful people like his old friends Lyle Saxon and Roark Bradford, in the city and that they had “left New Orleans misrepresented to the world” (259). After the incident, Steinbeck no longer desired to visit some of his favorite places, like Gallatoir’s Restaurant, fearing more racially divided ideals. In search of a secluded place, he sits beside the Father of Waters or Mississippi River, and encounters a man who looks similar to Greco San Pablo. They eat together and talk of Lewis Carroll and the “queer” (261) epitaph by Rober John Croswell. After giving a ride to both a wary black man and a racist white man, Steinbeck becomes aware that the Southern people are afraid to change their way of life just as the Cockneys children in London were and that they will accept that fear despite the Gandhi inspired works of Martin Luther King.

Reading Guide Questions for pages 249-273

 * Why do you think that the "Cheerleaders" protesting was censored in the media and do you think the media was for or against integration based on their censoring?
 * Do you think it is within human nature to discriminate? Why or why not?
 * Why do you think race is so important in this section?

History
This guide is an adaptation of the Wikipedia article, Wikipedia:Travels With Charley: In Search of America, at 6 April 2006.


text:
Talk:Latin/Spoken

Untitled
Mehercule! There are numerous grammatical errors in this guide...pending full review, I recommend these translations be approached cum grano salis.

I believe that it should not be "ubi vivis" "ubi habitas."

 * Salve! Please go ahead, be bold and correct them. Etiam, know that some of us are trying to see if Latin can be learned to be spoken. Gratias ago.--Jondel 08:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

"Quot annes habes?" seems wrong. It should be "Quot annos habes?"

Why are there macrons on some words but not others? --[Zephyrus]
 * Someone seems to have fixed annes (thanks!). Macrons look weird to some people, and the Romans certainly didn't use them, but because this work is about spoken Latin, we should add them where they are missing. Peter Chastain (discuss • contribs) 20:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

"Tūne Paula es?" doesn't look quite right to me. Shouldn't it be "Esne tū Paula?"? (Actually, I personally would just say "Esne Paula?", but then I have a terrible habit of omitting pronouns.) --72.72.108.193 (talk) 06:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV deviation
Goodness, there is plenty of deviation from NPOV here.

"The strongest claims for the Italian pronunciation are its undeniable beauty ..." I shan't deny it either, but this implies it has more beauty than the classical pronunciation. This is wholly subjective.

"'Classical' pronounciation ... makes the claim that it is what the ancient Romans actually spoke, although the claim remains uncertain as the classical pronunciation is a reconstruction based on philological research." It goes on to cite Vox Latina, which has statements of ancient grammarians and other direct evidence.

"To some, the classical rules ... produce an unpleasing effect." Weasel words, and ones that can go the other way, too. Carolus 04:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Purpose:To Speak, converse
The purpose of this article/wikipage is to assist or encourage spoken or conversational latin. Latin seems to be associate with literature only. If people can learn to speak Klingon, Esperanto , etc why not Latin?--Jondel 14:41, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Latin/Spoken