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Taliban resurgent in Pakistan on enforcement of Sharia law/Interview archive

What is the current situation in the NWFP?

The Pashtun people are or were renowned for their hospitality. Many westerners commented on it. Some with suspicion NOT willing to believe some people so poor could be so generous. It was almost a character flaw. One could travel with out fear of personal danger as long as you followed local protocols. (I would urge you to read Kiplings "East is East & West is West." one more time, know this time that it is written about the Pashtun people.)

That was the sort of mind set among the people. An ageless paradigm of self satisfaction: This is enshrined in the code of the Pashtuns way of life (see James Spain "The Way of the Pathans") - called Pashtunwali- in Pashto hospitality is referred to as "maelmastiya".

The Islamic radicalism is in reality nothing but the Taliban movement. As I said earlier not all Pashtuns are Taliban (obviously) but most Taliban are Pashtun. Of these most belong to the FATA. Of these, most were affected by their cousins from Afghanistan coming over. Mingled with them were Arab-Afghans. Uzbeks and some Tajiks and even Chechens. Some of these married within the tribes and formed a bond with the locals. Marriage bonds go back in history. Again remember the mindset of the people here. Always keep that in mind. To them the scripture in the written word of God, and that includes the Old Testament (called Torat (Torah) and (Injeel = Bible less St. Pauls contributions).

This Talibanization shows itself in the content of the Friday sermons at the mosque. Now it shows in the popularity of growing beards, especially since the MMA - the coalition of religious political party's - won power. More recently in their showdown with the Pakistan army in N and S Waziristan - where according to my sources, people prefer going to the Taliban for justice rather than the older system of Maliks and Political Agents. The latter are known as corrupt. In Pakistan in general people are sick of the amount of corruption.

And now in Bannu, from where hails the Chief Minister of the NWFP, Mr Durrani, is in Taliban control in the sense that there is a parallel government that they have established and which is functioning quite well and is popular among the people.

'''Justice in tribal areas of Pakistan has been handled by elders, following a mixture of tribal tradition and Islamic law. Would you say that Taliban influence has caused a stricter intrepretation of Islamic law in the NWFP?

Yes. The Maliks, or tribal elders who consider themselves quite conservatively religious, even so had a laid back attitude towards enforcement of religious doctrine. That is where the difference comes. My opinion is that this is the reason that the Maliks supported the government of Pakistan in South Waziristan, which has recently been in the news having kicked out the militant Uzbek who came as guests in the post-soviet era and started mischief of their own but am not sure what their agenda was to begin with, and I myself have questions about their presence as to why they were not reported earlier, since reporting the presence of any foreigner(s) in the FATA is job one of the Pakistani Political Agents (PA). Why is the presence of the Uzbeks and the Chechen in the area just coming to light? Remember there are seven of these PA's - one for each FATA. The Taliban emulated the Saudi system of having a department concerned with citizens’ morals, even the name is the same, the department for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, and this department has – as in Saudi Arabia, an enforcement police, called mutawwa'in, a morals law-enforcement agency.

Has there been a shift from tribal elders to clerics, as the main interpreters of law?

Yes there has been a movement in that direction but it has started a power struggle between the clerics who traditionally have been at the lowest strata of the social structure, to now when they have seen a bigger role for themselves first from the Taliban in Afghanistan – but also the government of the MMA in the NWFP who are nothing more than glorified clerics themselves, only a little smarter in exploiting religion politically, and the MMA is largely non-Pashtun which is a source of discontent in that they stand in the way of Pashtun nationalism, such as it is, because it only rears its head when non-Pashtuns start to usurp power over what the Pashtun consider their turf.

'''The deal made between Pakistani central government and the North and South Waziristan provinces, where tribal leadership was given the pivotal role in dealing with militants and the Taliban, has been criticized as a failure. What caused an initiative by tribal authority to fail?'''

First off, I don't agree with the premise of the question, that the "deal" is a "failure" - for the following reasons:

 * 1) In the first place the Pakistan army (govt - same difference) did not have many options. This was the least worst option they had.
 * 2) And most importantly, I have said this before, this area is literally in a time warp - which means they proceed at (what seems to us in the west) a glacial pace. I will give an example from the folklore: The story goes that a Pashtun had to repay (badal) an enemy for a crime against his family and he waited patiently for 20 years (some say 50 years), after this time, he exacted his revenge - but soon after was depressed because he wondered "Did I act too hastily?"So one part of Pashtunwali is to "pay back" - (Badal: literally to exchange) which most people translate as revenge. Yes that is the form that is most visible, but badal is also played out in the exchange of gifts at wedding and other celebrations, and in the exchange of favors like in politics. The rules can be arcane, unwritten and hard to follow -- who did what to whom, when, and so on, and what is the proper recompense -- this same give and take would occur in a peace process pursued by the Tribal Maliks, who rule by consensus (see Olaf Caroe) and there is no actual leader in the western sense, because all the Maliks, in fact all the others are de facto, so many co-equals (The Way of the Pathans/ People of the Khyber - James Spain pp 129 on.) - it is a mind set, a paradigm foreign to the uninitiated, as is the concept of consensual gay sex to the Wazir in Waziristan.
 * 3) I wish someone would read the history of this area, it would help in dealing with our expectations and possibly much more. For instance there are two major tribe in N and S Waziristan, the Wazir, and the Mahsud - in the news you hear about the sub tribes; The most famour character of North Waziristan, the equivalent of a Jesse James, was leader called the "Faqir of Ippi" - he died in 1960, the Pakistan govt never was able to capture him, even though he set up a govt of Independent Pashtunistan in cahoots with Kabul. The great uprising of India of 1897 had its roots in Waziristan, as did the Treaty of Razmak. Of all the Pashtun, the Wazir are the most independent minded and the least to be cowed by military action.
 * 4) So what options did Pakistan have, more military action? It had already lost hundred of their "privates" in action. Allow the US forces to come in, as a matter of fact the ISAF do cross into the Pakistani territory, we just don't know how deep they go -- the rules of engagement, as I understand them are, that if they (the US Army of Marines) are in "hot pursuit" then they cross into Pakistan. In reality they do it more often then that, just that there is no proof of it, who will report it, the Wazir? Or the Pakistan army?
 * 5) The last part of your question, there are many assumptions, all wrong. The initiative was not from the tribals. There is no single authority amongst the tribal, they would convene a Jirga and decide on a course of action, such as this, to my knowledge no such jirga was called. To save face the Pakistan government might claim it was a tribal initiative, but it seems highly unlikely. The Pak troop's casualties were so high, and there was talk of hostages being held as well -- I tend to believe, that the Governor of the NWFP initiated the talks and the agreement, because he sure as hell is taking all the heat for its "failure".
 * 6) That brings me to the last issue, the agreement has not failed, because it has not been given enough time, in Wazir time reference, not American time presidential election cycle controlled. I do not have a crystal ball, but if I did, I would see NATO troops in Afghanistan long after Iraq is over. Afghanistan can be a success ONLY if we accept one thing, the time warp these people live in -- by my reckoning its still 1700 CE over there.

If the Talibanization of Pakistan is partly due to a perception of corruption among the older system of Maliks and Political Agents, and Musharraf has critics lining up, who can the U.S. turn to in dispensing with $10 billion in aid monies?

Talibanization has nothing to do with your premise there. Zilch. Nada. The corruption is in the ISI, the Pak army and the Pak system of Political Agents (PA) assigned to these tribal zones (FATA & PATA). These PA have budgets that are much like the CIA in that they are a single line item in the national budget, there is no accountability of where or how the PA spends the money. If one followed the IRS rules and looked at the lifestyles of the PA and compared them with their income, you would soon understand what was going on. Musharraf critics are a larger issue. For eons, Republicans have coddled Pakistan with the belief that "as long as they are pro America" - democracy in Pakistan will come in due course. Democrats have, I think, insisted Democracy first, and then we can discuss the other issues later. For example, pre 9/11, compare how Carter's administration treated Gen Zia and how Reagan's administration treated him.

The Talibanization of Pakistan has more to do with graduates of "Raiwind" a place near Lahore where the "Tablighi Jamaat" conducts brainwashing camps. It was graduates of this place, in my opinion, that are responsible for Britain's 7/7 attacks as an example. For the Talibanization of the FATA, see Ahmed Rashid's classic study on the subject wrt to Afghanistan but applicable to Pashtuns in the NWFP equally, in a sense.

Corruption amongst the Maliks is self limiting because of the egalitarian society they live & because of Pashtunwali (see Charles Lindholm, Oxford press).

Who can the US turn to? This is a tough one. The Pakistani national psyche has not progressed the way the Indians have. There are still very much remnants of the Raj visible and present and invisible but Pakistani behavior gives it away - in the way they treat household help, in the way company bosses treat their employees, in the way the government officers often act above the law. For example the NWFP is supposed to be dry - yet the governemt employees consume copious amounts of liquor. There are some that even moonshine at home. (I have pictures I could share taken at "dance" party, more like a stag party.)

I think this last question is best answered in who has been reliable in the past, and assume the past to be an indicator of future behavior.

We know the Pak army will siphon large amounts towards its Nuclear program and the upkeep of its generals.

We know that Nawaz Sharif left the national treasury almost bankrupt when Musharraf took over.

We know that Benazir husband took 10% of all government deals. I believe he has an Interpol warrant for his arrest, although I can't vouch for it, it does come out in the news, even though it's puzzling why Interpol has trouble executing the warrant. Now I hear they are withdrawn.

So who does that leave?

The next generation of Politicians who are not beholden to anyone.

In my opinion, the US should insist on the scheduled elections but accede to some genuine Pakistani concerns:

Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto ought to be ineligible to run, BUT other members of the respective party PML (N) and PPP (B) can do so.

Prohibit allocation of emblems to the religious party which they can & have misused.

For example in the last election they asked for and got the symbol of a book, they then went on to advertise the symbol represented the Qur'an and a vote for the book was a vote for the Qur'an - not the candidate but the Qur'an. Well the ploy worked only too well. Imagine a similar vote here where a vote is asked for as a vote for the Bible! You can imagine the results.

What is your take on the Musharraf suspending the judge Iftikhar Chaudhry?

My take:

I believe, and this is widely held belief, that Musharraf has no constituency of his own for his power base. He wanted legitimization from the Supreme Court, and from Mr Choudhry as Chief Justice (their system is not like ours) would not give it.

So Musharraf has had to hang on to his Army Chief of Staff position to get his power from the Army. If some one else were Chief of Staff, that person could refuse to support Musharraf.

The Justice favorable to the general is Justice Iqbal, who was not the next in line for Chief Justice. The next in line is a Hindu. That presented problems of its own for Musharraf. So when the Hindu judge went for a trip to India, Iqbal became the "available" senior most Supreme Court judge, and hence the haste and lack of decorum with which Justice Chaudhry was removed.

Now we have to wait for the other shoe to fall --- will Iqbal issue a Judicial ruling which would make it easy for Musharraf to stay on as Chief of Staff - in the meantime, the US has asked him to relinquish this army position.

Needless to say, it was very badly handled, high handed, and the TV was present -- the country saw what was being done to the highest member of the court of law, and in their mind, as in mine, the law in Pakistan was being manhandled, handcuffed and sent off packing to jail, so to speak. Something we long suspected, but was confirmed on TV and in the Newspapers. Overseas organizations taking up Chaudhry's cause, might lead one to belive that Musharraf's days are numbered, and they would be wrong, because America needs Musharraf - for the time being, anyway - because Iraq has scared America, just as in the post Vietnam era, there is now a fear regarding Muslim countries - the fear of the alternative, will democracy in Muslim country give us more of Ahmedinejad or Al-Maliki, or can we find some Hamid Karzais'? We just don't know.

Can you tell us what the prevailing sentiment in the region regarding the Pakistani government effort in the provinces and the international effort in Afghanistan to combat Taliban and affiliated militants?

In my dealings and inquires, one thing stood out like a sore thumb - the conspiracy theories vis-à-vis anything having to do with America. I mentioned to one of my close friends that events that were previously ascribed as acts of God were now considered acts of the CIA. Some even believed that the Earthquake in the northern areas was because of some sort of underground secret "bomb" used by the CIA. Lack of evidence is further proof that the CIA did it. I was flabbergasted, and started to give this kind of thinking as an example in speaking to "educated" Pakistani's - and among these, those that did agree that the earthquake was NOT the work of the CIA, they would start giving other examples, notably the Blow up of the plane carrying Zia ul Haq an ex President of Pakistan, in which the US Ambassador also perished. When I would point this out, the response would be that that is the sort of thing they do to take away suspicion from themselves.

In a nutshell, the impression I came away with is, there is NO war of civilizations going on, what is going on is a war between literacy and illiteracy. I use the latter term in the widest connotation.

Pakistan government efforts: While on the one hand people would decry that the government is not doing enough, in the same breath they would state the government is a puppet of the US and only does what the US tells it to do. In this sense there is very little awareness among the people about what the Pakistani army is doing in the FATA or for that matter in Balochistan. The local newspapers are censored, and if not censored they do not allocate much space to the topics. "Dawn," which is the highest circulation English language paper, carries more stories about the US than about the local stories, that might appear say in "Newsweek."

The international effort in Afghanistan is not considered international at all, only American. You could speak till you are blue in the face, and you would not change anyone's mind. In my case they would simply turn quiet, not wishing to offend a "guest" (see Pashtunwali).

It is commonly agreed that some thing has to be done to curb the religious extremism that has taken root here, while historically these people (Pashtun) are a moderate people (see Olaf Caroe "The Pathans"). In fact some of the reasons the extremism has crept in is that many of the cultural practices were not in accordance with Saudi based "Salafiism" more popularly known as Wahabism. But Mr Wahab dates to the period of Lawrence of Arabia - Salafism dates further back, and is one of the six or seven schools of "Fiqh" or jurisprudence, but the latter fiqh has morphed into a cult like sect.

Taliban are not visible in the areas I visited, but the militants handiwork clearly is - as elsewhere, the common criminals are taking advantage of this situation, and crime is up significantly. One new crime is Cell phone "snatching" - it's easy and nobody wants to pursue it. If some one is using a Razr phone, he can expect to be hit soon, if he uses it in public. So people have two cell phone (Called mobiles here) one fancy to show off, one for use in public places.

In so far as "foreign" militants are captured and identified, that is to say non-Pashtun (including non Afghan Pashtun or Pak Pashtun) - then the people are obviously in agreement with the government that these people don't belong here and need to go.

The problem is this:

The foreigners are usually in the FATA and have been there since the Soviet war times. Many of them have taken local wives and now have a family. The local have accepted them into their family. Now for the Pak govt to ask them to kick them out, the locals are thinking what am I doing to my grandchildren's father, etc. Again the edicts of Pashtunwali also play a role.

What kind of support is there in the area for the positions advocated by the Taliban on matters such as Sharia law, women's education, role in public affairs, its proscriptions on entertainment such as movies, music ..etc?

In the areas that I visited and the people that I spoke to, which by definition is a very non-random sample, the people are TOTALLY opposed to the Taliban. I do have one nephew who seems to have come under the influence of the Salafi's but that is a different story. I can address that separately and you can decide if it belongs with this story - not my nephew's story but the way the Salafi's have woven themselves into this area  --- which is historically a "Hanafi" fiqh area, which is much more moderate. Like I said this may be tangential to the main story.

In general, people will say Yes we are Muslim and we are for the Sharia, but in general most people do not know what that entails.

In their mind it entails a more just system, a less corrupt government.

But if you ask them if they want a system like the Taliban the answer is an unequivocal NO.

Women's education is quite the norm in the non FATA parts of the NWFP. When I visited the earthquake area which is also mostly in the NWFP, (I have photo's and video) the girl schools were some of the first to spring up. I remember being pleasantly surprised by this at the time.

As far as a role in Public, it gets complicated. Women are in general expected to be docile and compliant, and the same expectation foloows through into Public affairs. But this point of view is not limited to the NWFP - it is the same all over Pakistan, excluding the large cities of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad etc. yet still applicable to Peshawar.

In Peshawar you do get to see more girls getting jobs as tellers in a bank and some other non traditional jobs, whereas previously the only jobs were either teachers to young kids, teachers to older girls, nurses and doctors - for the most part.

Movies in the NWFP in the Theaters are for the lower socio economic men only. The reason is other than Talibanization. The easy availability of pirated, good quality DVD's of Indian and Hollywood movies (From China thru the land route over the Karakorum Highway) - it cost Rs120 ($2/-) for the whole family to watch a movie in the comfort of their home. Travelling to a theater might cost that much in gas. The inconvience. The crowds. The men gawking at the women and last but definitely not least, some bombs exploding in the theater some years back, put a comllete stop to the middle class from going out to see movies.

Paashtuns love music. So even though I hear that some bus drivers have been fined for playing their cassettes, I doubt this is going to stop them from playing their music. Some thing far worse has to happen - I think the drivers may start carrying guns and having it out with who ever is tring to stop them from their favorite music.

What is not being reported and what the Taliban could do effectively is to cut up cable tv cables. Most cable companies string their cable ABOVE ground to save cost and take it along the electric poles, below the electricity wires. Since these are exposed there have been many (several) instances of the cables being cut up. Luckiliy there is no market for coaxial cable, or more cable would be lost to druggies doing the cutting. The latter is a serious problem that you don't hear about. One person that I knew told me that he was building his house and had poured conrete and reinforcements for the pillars. The next day he found the reinforcement bars to have been cut up flush with the ground slab leaving him to figure out how to do the rebar of the rest of the pillar.

To what degree does this support stem from fear and intimidation?

The Taliban are Pashtun, and the populace is Pashtun. The Pashtun do not scare easy. They are not intimidated easily. They might comply for the moment and then come back with a vengeance, so to speak. The women folk are more susceptible to intimidation, as was evidenced by the closure of the schools, because the mothers decided that they were not going to take a chance that their kids might get injured.

'''How about the "political positions" of the insurgent movement - resistance to foreign troops, and the Karzai government? Is there a separatist or nationalist component to the movement?'''

Karzai is not popular among the Pashtun's who are loyal to Pakistan in the NWFP, those are the one I met mostly. They think that Karzai is opportunistic in that he is fleecing the government of the US whereas he himself is little more than the mayor of Kabul. They point to his American bodyguards as proof that he is disliked by his own people, that the moment the American leave Karzai is a dead man.

I can not speak to the separatist movement. I have seen no evidence of it. There is widespread resentment that the Federal government refuses to give a name to the province, a name of the people's liking - there have been recently articles in Dawn about this, I will try and find them for you.

Nationalism is alive and well on the other hand, all over Pakistan - in all its four provinces. Everybody hates the Punjabi's - almost to the man.

It is my opinion that were it not for US aid, Pakistan will go the route of Yugoslavia. With lots of bloodshed.

Resistance to foreign troops is like the national pastime among the Pashtun. Even today they collect in the evenings and will tell tales, vastly glorified of the way their grandfather fought against the British.

In other parts of the NWFP, like Charsadda and Mardan where Abdul Ghaffar Khan (the frontier Gandhi) was popular you have old "khudai khidmatgars" telling their stories of how they kicked out the British.

The only thing that Unites the Pashtun, are foreign troops on their soil. Other than that "Pashtun Unity" is almost an oxymoron.

What do you think the U.S., the international community and Pakistan should do to ease the problems in the region?

In my opinion, based on my conversations with individuals in positions to know these things, plus a little bit of plain common sense, plus knowing the history of the people and of the area: The ONE thing that will NOT work is direct military action. We know this from history. We know that the Pashtuns love to fight. We know that the Talibanization has brought the Jihadi's into the picture, who like nothing better than to be martyred. So we need to keep this in mind, of what NOT to do. Having said that, what I am going to say next may appear like a paradox.

Because the Pashtun do not like to deal with what they believe are wus or weak people, we do need to have a strong PRESENCE there, and a strong "show of force" - invite a "Jirga" to like a demonstration of what the US air force is capable of doing - just to show them, - the reason is that their paradigm is the 14th century, if you simply told them that we can do this to you, they will simply think you are lying, because that is what they do, they lie to show off.

But if you drop a daisy cutter and tell them before hand what it is capable of, or a stealth bomber, these technologies are outsides their mind-set; we have to get them to believe that we have these capabilities, like the Drone. Or spy satellites.

From this position of strength, and always reminding them that we are raring to use our forces in that like them we also love to shoot our guns at every opportunity, but then not actually do it ( in this sense we had achieved all out objectives with Saddam prior to invading Iraq IMHO invading Iraq was redundant) - so the next step would be:

 * 1) Education
 * 2) Development meaning providing a means of livelihood so they do not have to become military mercenaries to make a living.
 * 3) Gradually replacing their madrassas with our own madrassas, except in the latter, the Mullah is an educated individual who knows comparative religion, and they teach other subjects including Biology, anthropology, measuring the age of the earth by carbon dating etc. and astronomy to learn the age of the Universe, black holes, quasars Relativity concepts, quantum mechanic concepts (not the mathematics, the simple concepts behind them, and how these ideas are behind some of today's everyday electronic devices)
 * 4) Leisure activity, starting with traditional leisure activity, i.e. not TV and cable and Internet, but ultimately making these available
 * 5) Introduce these "NEW" technologies through a religious mode. Transmit a Qur'anic recital competition to begin with, as an example instead of beginning with MTV.
 * 6) Making water available. Drinking water is an everyday necessity, for cooking etc, and not available in most of the FATA.
 * 7) Food grain. Wheat flour etc, keep the prices the same as in Peshawar - these people are not traders, they are easily exploited, and like porn they couldn't tell you what exploitation is, but they can tell you when they see it.

What makes the North-West Frontier Province competent to administer any monies?

This is the central question. Much like California has taken a separate initiative on stem cell research – as an analogy – the NWFP is central to the war on terror, not Pakistan.

The NWFP was central to the fight and aid to the Afghans during the Soviet occupation, not Pakistan.

This small distinction is lost on Washington, and it is the main reason, in my opinion, why so much of the Aid was "lost in transit was because the Punjabi army officers could not bring themselves to dispense such large sums to an ethnic group which it considers anti-Pakistani (You would have to read the history of the Indian partition, in particular that the NWFP was a “Indian Congress Party” controlled province where as the "Muslim League" of Jinnah was trying to show the Brits that all the area was FOR the creation of Pakistan).

All the FATA is contiguous to the NWFP. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda are holed up somewhere either in the FATA, or across the Durand Line in Afghanistan, the Durand Line has never been recognized by the locals as an international boundary. Even today, the Pashtun travel from Peshawar to Kabul by road with out a passport or visa, and it has been like that for eons.

(Especially for the nomadic Pashtun tribe of Ghilzai’s who travel by caravan and conduct trade.)

The present governor of the NWFP belongs to the Orakzai tribe (he spells his name Aorakzai) and it is my opinion that that he was picked partly because he belongs to one of the FATA as well as he is a retired General of the Pak Army.

The Frontier Constabulary (FC) is a force which primarily recruits from the FATA. All or most of its forces are from the various tribes. In the eyes of the tribes this is a bona fide force and service with the FC is considered an honorable thing. The US has already allocated some funds for increasing recruitment, but far less than what it would take to counter the Taliban and far less than what the economic need is. [The US] spends a thousand times more on a battalions sent to monitor activity over there. Plus why endanger the lives of our troops and spread our forces thin when a more effective job can be done by the FC. The FC has over history shown that they will attack and use force against the tribes that create trouble. There have been no instances of insubordination or mutiny.

Even the US Embassy is protected by a contingent of the FC! That goes to show their trustworthiness & discipline.

My second proposal is that there is a common phenomenon for Pashtun men to go to the Gulf States for jobs.

The "tribal" Pashtuns ( All Pashtuns are tribal, in that Pashtun form the largest tribal society in the world in terms of numbers) wrt the FATA are not educated or trained and hence not employable right now. I propose that we fund directly the Director of Emigrants (Mr Azhar Arbab) in Islamabad to set up training facilities in Concrete laying, iron work, pipe work, welding etc, which would then qualify these tribesmen to obtain jobs in the Gulf. As such we would remove them from the scene altogether. They would not be available in the labor pool to the Taliban or anyone else. I might add here, that a number of these individuals have very high innate intelligence, which is one reason they make formidable foes.

Now the central reason why the NWFP ought to do this is because they are themselves most affected by the scourge of Talibanization. They are highly motivated in carrying out these policies because it is to their own benefit.

One has to be convinced on this last point, and for that I urge you research the sentiments amongst the people of the province, such as I am willing to provide, and which you can corroborate from other sources as well.

For instance, after Malik Saad was murdered, there were people, whom I heard myself, that expressed the feeling (admittedly stunned with grief) "If this is Islam then fuck such Islam" (I paraphrase, obviously, the Pashto is not directly translatable) – moreover, Mr Saad’s posters are competing with Osama’s in the Bazaar’s as a spontaneous gesture from the public. We can’t afford to let this good-will to be lost.

An Associated Press report on MSNBC dated March 15, 2007 and headlined "Arrest of al-Qaida’s 'best' reflects changing role" stated, "A senior Western diplomat in Islamabad, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said the Taliban resurgence had not necessarily led to the re-emergence of al-Qaida training camps in Pakistan - a key U.S. ally in the war on terror - but had "created the environment for whatever is left of al-Qaida to feel more comfortable." What does that mean?

A senior western diplomat usually means a Political Officer in the US Embassy, which most people know is a CIA agent, OR it could be some other Embassy official -

First there is a big difference between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

Al Qaeda is mostly composed of Arabs, they do not trust any one else. While they might use others as couriers or in lowly position as servants, for second rate Al Qaeda officials, the Top guys ONLY deal with Arabs and are served by Arabs.

The Taliban are mostly Pashtun tribesmen. Mostly they are graduates of madrassa's.

Mostly illiterate by any world standards. The better educated among them will know how to speak a few words of English, such as their Information minister. There might be one or two notable exception of which I am not aware, I had heard Yale had admitted a Taliban, but never followed up on the story.

However while Al Qaeda does not trust the Taliban, the Taliban look up to Al Qaeda top leadership. We saw this situation in Iraq where initially Al Zarqawi had no direct link with Qaeda but was keen to form one. It would be conjecture on my part to state that in the end he did indeed succeed in forming that connection. In the press at least that impression was prevalent.

So the lines of interest proceed ONE way, like one way traffic. Extremist want to be affiliated with Qaeda, IMHO, while the latter does not, again, in my opinion want to - so as to maintain its hideout.

Now we come to the statement below:

The Taliban resurgence is not connected directly to the Qaeda.

(al in Arabic = the; Qaeda means the base, or the foundation e.g. in kg school here you are asked "did you learn your "abc's" - in the Muslim world one is asked in an equivalent kg "did you learn your qaeda"?)

The Qaeda supply lines are hampered, new recruits would have to be Arabs, and they would have to travel a long way through tight Pakistani security to reach here, or suffer hardship over a long and arduous land route through Balochistan and the Tribal area's - NOT all of which are accommodating.

So as is becoming clear, Qaeda is having trouble replacing people they loose meaning those that were captured or died. They only trust Arabs, and that also a certain type of Arabs, (not all Arabs are the same, not all Arabic is the same - for example they would never trust a Syrian, in fact Qaeda folks consider Syrian brand of Islam an apostasy - but that is another story).

Okay so now we can understand the statement, that whatever remains of the Qaeda, are not in a position to set up training camps, since they are in a survival mode. The Taliban resurgence helps them get a little warm and fuzzy in this survival mode, since they feel a little bit more secure with their partners-in-arms doing some evil stuff, blowing up people and causing mayhem.

How many men does the FC field currently?

The FC currently has about 23000 men in total.

How much do they get paid?

They are paid the equivalent of $60 per month per person -Pak Rupees 3665, where Rs61= $1. They do have some fringe benefits but life is very spartan for these soldiers.

What the US could get in return is a huge bang for a buck, no pun intended.

I think we ought to double the number of these soldiers with one proviso that the FC maintains its high standards of recruits.

Compare this with our costs in the War against Terror; just Halliburton’s bills will have you reeling. I think that it would be foolish, NOT to do this.

Again to reinforce the reasons:

The Frontier Constabulary is an Institution with a long and glorious history within the Frontier Province.

The recruits come strictly from the tribes of the various FATA and so they are very familiar with the people, the bad guys the terrain etc.

They speak the Pashto dialect of the locals. The Pashto language has many dialects, and you can tell where someone is from based on which dialect he speaks. So if you do not speak the correct dialect, you are immediately identified as an outsider. This is one reason why these tribes are impossible to penetrate, there are other reasons as well, that are beyond the scope of the current discussion.

How can the FC help prevent attacks like the suicide bombing attempt on Sherpao in Charsadda last weekend?

In essence your question is how can anyone prevent a suicide attack? And frankly if I knew the answer to that I think the US military - and several other groups - would be knocking on my door. I think the Israeli Army has had the most experience with this sort of thing. The suicide bombing as a tactical weapon was invented by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, and even today in terms of statistics they use it in far greater numbers.

So to summarize neither the FC nor anyone else can prevent a suicide bombing. We could attempt to improve our intelligence to find out about an imminent attack, but so far these have not been very successful in Pakistan. In the Lal Masjid Case the government avoided a suicide killing by negotiating with those two Mullah brothers - but I don't know if that counts. But it does make for an interesting story. Both Washington, DC and Islamabad now have Madams threatening to publish the list of their clients unless they are given protection. Who would have thunk? Going back to your question: In my opinion what ought to be done is to make a Policy change, and address the issues that are producing these suicide bombers, that is the only way to stop this phenomenon. In this part of the world this is relatively new because prior to 9/11, suicide bombing was unheard of. Moreover it is not the FC's job to provide security to the Minister of the Interior, that is the job of the Police force, because this Ministry is equivalent to the Department of Homeland Security. You don't expect Border patrol to provide body guard duty to the Secretary of the department of Homeland Security. I am making these analogies so the American readers would relate to what is happening, and understand the difference in nomenclature.--RHakeem 20:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


text:
User talk:168.170.197.20

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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stop
This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikinews. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles will be reverted quickly.–Doldrums(talk) 18:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:168.170.197.20


text:
User talk:209.66.200.61

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Additionally, thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. --+Deprifry+ 19:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Hello,

Your recent contributions constitute vandalism and have been reverted. Should you believe that your contributions are *not* vandalism, please argue your case on your talk page, or in WN:ALERT.

Further vandalism will result in a 24 hour ban. Please contribute to Wikinews in a constructive fashion instead.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

pls do not vandalise
This is your last warning. The next time you vandalise a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikinews. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles will be reverted quickly.–Doldrums(talk) 17:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:209.66.200.61


text:
User talk:Renamed user~enwikinews

This user was renamed and previously blocked for an improper username. DragonFire1024 20:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Renamed user. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Renamed user~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Renamed user~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Lllllllllll

This account has been blocked for having an improper user name. Please select a new name. DragonFire1024 20:21, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lllllllllll


text:
User talk:Tonnirox~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Tonnirox. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Tonnirox~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:39, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tonnirox~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Gypsy~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Gypsy. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Gypsy~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:31, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gypsy~enwikinews


text:
Wikinews talk:Briefs/May 2, 2007

quoting Bush on veto
to quote the Bush statement about "terrorists ... marking time", when the Bill reads

"SEC. 1904.(e) After the conclusion of the redeployment [...] the Secretary of Defense may not deploy or maintain members of the Armed Forces in Iraq for any purpose other than the following:
 * (3) Engaging in targeted special actions limited in duration and scope to killing or capturing members of al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations with global reach."

is to simply push the administration's view unchallenged, even when that view is not supported by facts. –Doldrums(talk) 21:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

title: Wikinews talk:Briefs/May 2, 2007


text:
User talk:69.124.52.198

Welcome!

69.124.52.198, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Here are some other hints and tips:

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 * When using talk pages, please sign your name at the end of your messages by typing four tildes (~~). This will automatically produce your username (or IP address) and the date.

If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Mark Talk 22:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:69.124.52.198


text:
Category:Mohammad Khatami

fa:رده:سید محمد خاتمی

title: Category:Mohammad Khatami


text:
Study: Arctic ice could be gone by 2020

May 2, 2007

Researchers belonging to the (NSIDC) say that the Arctic ice caps are melting at a rate much faster than that predicted by computer models previously reported by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and that the ice could be gone sometime near year 2020.

"This suggests that current model projections may in fact provide a conservative estimate of future Arctic change, and that the summer Arctic sea ice may disappear considerably earlier than IPCC projections," said head researcher of the study group at the United States-based (NCAR) and the University of Colorado's NSIDC, Julienne Stroeve.

Stroeve says that the IPCC's 18 computer models used in the study were out of date and that the melting of the ice has actually progressed 30 years quicker than the computers predicted. The researchers also say that the computers did not take into account the increased threat of global warming. The IPCC ultimately predicted that the ice would be gone by 2050.

Despite the predictions, since 1979, the ice has actually melted at a rate of 9% per decade.

The prediction by the IPCC was done in the during September and predicted that between 1953 and 2003, the ice would have melted 2.5% per decade, but it actually melted at a rate of 7.8% per decade. Their worst case scenario between those years, which was predicted using only one computer, had shown that the ice was going to melt at a rate of 5.4% per decade.

"Right now — the Arctic helps keep the Earth cool. Without that Arctic ice, or with much less of it, the Earth will warm much faster. The IPCC report was very careful, very thorough and cautious, so they erred on the side of what would certainly occur as opposed to what might occur," said Ted Scambos, an expert on Arctic ice in the U.S.

"Long-term and for the next 50 years, I think even the new report will agree that we're in for quite a bit of warming," added Scambos.

title: Study: Arctic ice could be gone by 2020


text:
User talk:217.200.22.94

Welcome!

217.200.22.94, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
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If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!

Warning
Hello,

Your recent contributions constitute vandalism and have been reverted. Should you believe that your contributions are *not* vandalism, please argue your case on your talk page, or in WN:ALERT.

Further vandalism will result in a 24 hour ban. Please contribute to Wikinews in a constructive fashion instead. — Fellow Wiki  Newsie  23:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:217.200.22.94


text:
Talk:Study: Arctic ice could be gone by 2020

Sorry about that! Had an edit conflict. The paragraph was fine as it was. :) Jcart1534 23:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Dupe source?
Is the "The Age" source the same as the "Reuters" source? --SVTCobra 23:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably, but The Age cuts some of it off. The Reuters direct source has a bit more which The age did not. DragonFire1024 23:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So shouldn't we remove "The Age" source? --SVTCobra 23:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes could be removed. The Age is reprinted from Reuters. Indicated at bottom of article. Jcart1534 23:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed it. --SVTCobra 23:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo
Love the photo, BTW! Jcart1534 23:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I wanted to look for a good one :) I love flickr :) DragonFire1024 23:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Chart on the left
The chart on the left of the article is in a very odd perspective... I do not like it because it makes the data look even more alarming. I am not contending that without the odd perspective the line is straight across, but the rate of warming is misconstrued by the odd perspective. If there is another version of this same chart with natural perspective, I would like to see it replace this one. I think the chart has good information, but its rhetoric is unmistakable, even if unintentional. 129.42.161.36 15:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Category
Would like to add a category to a number of arctic related news articles to begin a wikinews Arctic portal to complement and support the Wikipedia Arctic portal and wikiproject. Do I use this procedure for all arctic news articles? Kind Regards [[User:SriMesh|SriMesh]] | [[User talk:SriMesh|<small>talk</small>]] (talk) 00:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

 * ✅ -- IlyaHaykinson (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


text:
Pandora radio to prevent access from outside U.S.

May 2, 2007

In a blow to internet radio, Tim Westergren, founder of Pandora radio, today announced that from May 3 the station will be "proactively preventing access to Pandora's streaming service for most countries outside of the U.S.".

In an email to all international users, Westergren cited "international licensing constraints" and the lack of any "global licensing organization" as reasons for the new policy.

The station had been asking listeners to provide a U.S. zipcode before accessing the service. From tomorrow, the station will be identifying the listener's country of origin based on the IP address from which they are accessing the service. Listeners from outside the U.S. will not be allowed to log in.

The shift in policy comes in the wake of good news for the industry's Save Net Radio campaign. The campaign has found support within U.S. Congress to overturn a ruling by the Copyright Royalty Board which threatened to increase licensing fees from 300% to 1,200%.

Westergren has promised that the personalised stations created by international listeners will be preserved, in the hope of a future solution to the licensing issue.


text:
Digg.com suffers user revolt

May 2, 2007

The popular social news site Digg.com was suffering from what appears to be a user revolt in response to the deletion of several articles revealing the encryption keys for HD-DVD, which would allow individuals to remove the encryption from HD-DVDs. Users are posting articles with links to the codes. At approximately 1:40 a.m [Eastern time] Digg.com was no longer online but returned online with a message from Kevin Rose, Digg's founder, who declared that he would not delete any more articles that contain the code.

"We'll be back shortly. Digg.com will be down for a brief period while we make some changes," said a statement previously posted on Digg.com's website. The notation (Out of service) appeared as the page's title.

According to co-founder Jay Adelson, the stories were deleted as a result of intellectual property infringement, although some users of the site speculate that the stories were deleted as a result of ties to the MPAA and its Diggnation podcast.

"We had to make a call, and in our desire to avoid a scenario where Digg would be interrupted or shut down, we decided to comply and remove the stories with the code. But now, after seeing hundreds of stories and reading thousands of comments, you’ve made it clear. You’d rather see Digg go down fighting than bow down to a bigger company. We hear you, and effective immediately we won’t delete stories or comments containing the code and will deal with whatever the consequences might be," said Kevin Rose, the founder of Digg in a statement on Digg's blogging site. The message also appears as a story submitted by Rose on Digg's main page. Rose included the encryption key in the title of the story, and joined countless other users by repeating the key in the comment section of the story.

A large number of Digg.com users were spamming the site with the 16 byte key to such an extent, apparently, that the site became almost unreadable. Users were not able to submit new material even though a "success" message was displayed after clicking submit.

As with Digg, during the past 48 hours, Wikipedia also has experienced some intensive user (and non-user) efforts to post the HD-DVD codes. Pending legal instructions to the contrary, Wikipedia volunteers ("administrators") have struggled with limited success to keep the codes off its site. Wikinews also experienced some trouble with users and non-users posting the code.

title: Digg.com suffers user revolt


text:
Talk:Digg.com suffers user revolt

Digg Back Up
DragoonWraith May 1, 2007, 11:52 PM PST: Hey, I don't have an account here, so I don't know how things work, but Digg is back up. They've apparently decided to let the code continue, despite the cease and desist letter.
 * As far as I understand, Digg never got a C&D, they took it down on their own accord. terinjokes | Talk 22:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

HD-DVD Code
If your editing this article please do not post the 16 digit hex code --Voodoom 05:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Wikipedia is being pounded with the code... users are getting creative. WN Admins, my suggestion is to help out the WP admins. The code, BTW, is . terinjokes | Talk 22:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I find it disgusting that you aren't allowed to talk about a prime number. But the laws the law I geuss :(. Bawolff ☺☻ 22:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a prime. 81.153.124.63 07:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Composite numbers are of very little use if I understand thi corectly. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Meh, I would post it, but there goes my adminship if so! --TUFKAAP 23:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Its actually on here, in a very obscure place, f you know where to look. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Original
I am attempting to connect to digg.com and its either off line or overloaded, but either way I cannot get to it anymore. DragonFire1024 05:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Digg founder concedes: --67.52.12.146 06:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"possible hacking"
article doesn't say whose speculation this is or what it is based on. –Doldrums(talk) 07:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

 * It's not hacking. That's how Digg works. The title is incorrect. GreenReaper 07:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The code surfacing at Wikipedia /wikimedia sites
Added a brief mention. Perhaps another reporter would like to check the IRC chat situation?HG 17:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

need to move end of article
Now the last 2 sentences lack a clear referent. These sentences refer to digg and so need to be moved up, prior to the en:WP para. HG 18:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm disturbed by the blanking of the hexi-whosi-whats-er
C'mon, so this got out. This is the news source that anyone can write. But apparently it is not if you cannot write  that .

So the Motion Picture Association makes changes to react to the leak.

What was it, Wikimedia is not censored? hmmm -Edbrown05 03:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well aprently its illegal to publish it, so the wikimedia foundation has to obey the law of the jurisdiction its in. Unfourtanatly thats the US. (I'm fairly disgusted by the whole thing though. seems pretty anti-free speech in my opinion). In other news, someone tried to register a user account under that name and he was renamed. Bawolff ☺☻ 05:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I wonder what he was renamed to? --57.69.9.19 14:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Renamed User Bawolff ☺☻ 00:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

-
 * Actually it appears (based on the 'pedia talk page) that the foundation doesn't care if you post it. Bawolff ☺☻ 06:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to wikipedia
editprotected There should be a link to AACS_encryption_key_controversy.Smallman12q (talk) 13:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm I agree there should of been a wikipedia box, but i'm not sure if it is appropriate for it to be added after archive. user:Bawolff —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.65.82.136 (talk) 21:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

 * ❌ too late, cannot be added after archiving. ♪Tempo di Valse ♪ 14:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

editprotected

The existing link to wikipedia is WRONG. The targetted section has obviously been archived by now, and it's in Archive85. -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 16:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. Tempo-di-Valse, i'm not sure your dismissal of the previous request should be based just on an interpretation of "editprotected after being archived"... The Archived in the story states that adding editprotected to the "talk page" (or is it the "Collaboration" tab?) is the way to go about corrections. And IMO links too, as Smallman12q requested, since they "correct" an ommision, and are not actually content, but metadata, and only affect the formatting (and "dynamicity") of the text. Or were you treating both requests in an "all or nothing" way? -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 16:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * ❌; archive conventions prevent us from editing articles for content, and I believe that adding a new link that did not exist originally falls under content, which is generally anything more substantial than spelling corrections, punctuation and categorization. Microchip08 (talk) 16:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what is being requested here. There are some things we can do, and others we can't.  If this is about the link in the Sources section, there's no reason to change it, as the Sources section is a record of where information was drawn from.  --Pi zero (talk) 17:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There are two requests; one to add AACS_encryption_key_controversy somewhere, and one to modify the "On Wikipedia's situation, see:" external link to point to the archive (or at least a permalink). Microchip08 (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * A permalink on the "see:" might not be inappropriate. It would need to be chosen very carefully.  --Pi zero (talk) 18:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Addition of a Sister links section... I'm not sure that's actually excluded either. The archive policy isn't some arbitrary rule; it protects the "snapshot in time" of the article, and a Sister links section doesn't seem to me, off hand, to be part of that snapshot.  The difficulty when this was discussed in 2009 may have been that we were still using sister boxes in the Sources section, which made their status rather unfortunately ambiguous.  Now we use a separate Sister links section, which the style guide explicitly notes is not part of the sourcing for the article.  --Pi zero (talk) 21:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The permalink would simply point to where on wikipedia the content is actually archived now, which is explicitly kept "for future reference". And if it ever gets moved, there will most likely be a redirect to find it; the link as included in the wn article just links to the highly volatile WP:AN page, and IMO only experienced editors would be able to track down the relevant section from there. -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 09:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "I believe that adding a new link [...] falls under content" -- well, sorry, but that's subjective. I, for instance, am more inclined to disagree with that stance. Should i ask for more input, at, e.g., Water cooler? -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 09:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This isn't Wikipedia, where the least decision is expected to become a topic for bitter dispute. Nor is this even a dispute; it's an amicable discussion of how best to handle a point of applied policy.  (Not one I have time to investigate further just at this instant, but the discussion is marked, and it's not like it's going anywhere.)  --Pi zero (talk) 11:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Why should it be bitter? It's just a minor dispute on the meaning/definition of a term, since content is ambiguous ("2.Subject matter; substance" would exclude links IMO, while "3.The amount of material contained" wouldn't). I'm just seeking further input, since it may very well be the case that i'm mostly wrong and i should accept your POV. Also, i'm seeking a better place for such a "debate" since it might be meaningless HERE, after you mentioned the option of using Sister links instead.
 * Then, in this talk page only my own request would remain to be considered. Note that it hasn't yet received any response, and it doesn't require anything be added to the contents. I've further commented on it above, if you missed that bit. -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 12:47, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be bitter; we're all the same page (er, no pun intended, not sure whether a pun occurred or not).
 * There has been some response; I've made some remarks, above. I'd add that my concern on the permalink is whether it's more appropriate, for our archival purposes, to link to the Wikipedia archive or to a specific revision of the page itself; the latter is evidently more stable and probably more informative.  The question of a sister-links section, when I get a chance I hope to explore in terms of what has and hasn't been done in that regard with other articles in our archives.  --Pi zero (talk) 13:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's a worthy subject for consideration. Also, since it [*] is a bit more complex than a mere dichotomy, and [*] should have site-wide implications, i am preparing to open it up for discussion at WN:Water cooler/policy, which i've recently discovered. Update: Here's the link to the section i started there. -- Jokes Free4Me (talk) 14:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ — After a great deal of reading and a fair bit of internal discussion with myself, I went ahead and changed the link to the Wikipedia source. My rational is this: while normally a source link wouldn't change (it's an archive of what the sources were at publication, and isn't suppose to be updated), the Wikipedia "source" should never have qualified as an external source in the first place. First off, Wikipedia isn't reliable enough to be a source (and they say the same thing about us;)). Secondly, rather than being a source, it should have been a simple interwiki link in the article. At best, it should have been in something like a related articles section.

 * Because it was improperly used in the first place, I treated it the same way I would a broken interwiki link; I fixed it. This is a unique situation and shouldn't be used as precedent in future discussions of this type. The vast majority of the time, the simple answer is this: "sources can't be updated after archiving". As for the insertion of a separate link that was discussed above, nope. The answer to that request is cut and dry: too late by far. That counts as new content and can't be inserted.

 * P.S. Amusingly, the link Joker Free4Me provided to the Wikinews watercooler is broken due to regular archiving of that page. — Gopher65talk 02:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Digg.com suffers user revolt


text:
User talk:Reve100

Welcome
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title: User talk:Reve100


text:
User talk:Dgantt1994

Welcome
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title: User talk:Dgantt1994


text:
User talk:Psota~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Psota. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Psota~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Psota~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Mbssmsb

Welcome
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title: User talk:Mbssmsb


text:
User talk:Tyler2131

Welcome
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title: User talk:Tyler2131


text: Category:Hashemi Rafsanjani

title: Category:Hashemi Rafsanjani


text:
User:HG1

Greetings. I live in the USA and edit en.wikipedia.org as HG

I have experience writing from NPOV at en:wikipedia and professionally. Not strong w/images or mark-up language.

I may focus on wikinews pertaining to religion.

Advice most welcome.

Work to date
Did the research and first draft for a story, which SVTCobra expanded/revised into "Kentucky faith-based agency under fire for religious coercion."

title: User:HG1


text:
User:Jtauber~enwikinews

See my Wikipedia user page for more about me.

title: User:Jtauber~enwikinews


text:
Bloc Québécois raise concern over remark made by hockey player

May 2, 2007

Team Canada and Phoenix Coyotes hockey captain Shane Doan says he'll quit his position after the Bloc Québécois political party raised some concern over an "ethnic remark" he made two years ago.

A motion demanding officials from Hockey Canada and Sport Canada to appear before a House of Commons Committee on Thursday, was supported by the Conservatives, the Liberals, the NDP, and the Bloc Québécois.

"Sports Canada has certain objectives, and that includes reflecting what they call the Canadian reality," said Bloc Québécois leader Gilles Duceppe. "The government has just cut lots of money from community groups under the pretext that they didn't share the government's priorities. "Hockey Canada receives (public) money, right? We have a right to ask questions."

The National Hockey League (NHL) defends his remark made in 2005 against French-Canadian Hockey referee Stephane Auger.

According to a statement by NHL Linesman Michel Cormier, the game was a December 15, 2005 game which had the Phoenix Coyotes vs. Montreal Canadiens, it had four French-Canadian referees. He recalls himself, after the second period, skating to the Coyotes bench.

"While skating alongside me while I was headed toward my room, that's when [Doan] said the words, 'Fucking Frenchman, did a good job,' and he skated away," said Cormier recalling the event. "We were side by side."

Doan, who has "strong Christian values", says he did, indeed, make a remark about the four referees but denies any bad language.

Doan, who agreed to a $22.75-million five year contract with the Coyotes, says he was trying to calm down goaltender Curtis Joseph, who was angered that the Montreal Canadiens did not get a penalty. Doan says his real comment was: "Four French referees in Montreal, Cuje, figure it out."

In January 2006, he launched a $250,000 lawsuit against former Minister of Sport and Liberal MP Denis Coderre for "falsely" accusing him of making the remark. Coderre, last year, demanded Doan be asked to not join Team Canada in the 2006 Turin Olympics. On April 2, 2007, Coderre filed a defamation lawsuit against Doan seeking $45,000 in damages.

"I take huge pride in playing for my country, I take huge pride in representing everybody," Doan said. "For them to question me, being the captain, is incredibly disappointing. For someone to...say that I'm a bad role model, I'd rather have you call me the worst hockey player in the world and I don't deserve to be on the team, anything like that, but don't question my character," he said. "I don't understand how someone can attack when I've been cleared by the NHL, I never said it, yet they can just throw it out in the House of Commons."

Just today, Doan scored the game-winning goal in a 4-2 preliminary round victory over Norway at the Men's World Hockey Championship in Moscow, Russia.


text:
User talk:Interiot

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Great to see you here.  Thunderhead  ►  00:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Interiot


text:
User talk:Dani'sstuff

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!  Thunderhead  ►  00:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Dani'sstuff


text:
User:Example~enwikinews

This is an example username.

title: User:Example~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Example~enwikinews

This is an example username.

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!  Thunderhead  ►  01:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Example. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Example~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:16, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:31, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Example~enwikinews


text:
Template:User2

User: ( talk · contribs · [ page moves] · block user · [ block log] )

Usage
Use this template with, replacing Username with the actual username you want to use. For example:

 * creates

title: Template:User2


text:
MLB: Yankees' Phil Hughes earns first win

May 2, 2007

20-year-old pitching phenom Phil Hughes cruised through hitters in just his second start for the New York Yankees, but the end result created even more frustration for the organization and fans everywhere.

Hughes retired 19 Texas Rangers without allowing a hit on Tuesday at the Rangers Ballpark in Arlington. Established big league stars such as Kenny Lofton, Mark Teixeira and Michael Young could not solve the youngster's blazing fastball or sharply biting curve. Hughes was on the verge of history. Even as his pitch count rose, the Yankees allowed him to keep firing. "He was fine," manager Joe Torre said of the 2004 first round draft pick. "We were going to allow him to go 100 pitches last time, so I didn't think that would be a problem."

Just when the Yankees thought they found an answer to their early struggles, the organization was treated to an agonizing sight. After Teixeira fouled off an 0-2 pitch with one out in the sixth inning, Hughes grabbed his leg, having suffered a hamstring injury. His no-hit bid ended there (Texas would break up the no-hitter in the eighth inning off reliever Mike Myers), though he did earn his first big league win in a 10-1 Yankee romp over Texas. He walked off the mound under his own power, but will reportedly miss 4-6 weeks. Hughes voiced his frustration afterwards: "It's tough. It puts a damper on the whole thing." He added, "I'm at a point now where our rotation really needs it," referring to his presence on the New York pitching staff. Several Yankees have already voiced their excitement for the righthander's chances in the big leagues. For his part, Yankees star Jason Giambi compared him to Roger Clemens during Spring Training: "He looks like a young Rocket."

The Yankees are currently just 10-14, thanks in large part to injuries that have befallen pitchers Chien-Ming Wang, Mike Mussina, Carl Pavano and Jeff Karstens. In a related story from today, the Yankees fired strength and conditioning coach Marty Miller. Reportedly, this was out of general manager Brian Cashman's concern for the alarming number of hamstring injuries so far this season.


text:
User talk:HG1

First steps -- added a subdivision (religion) and some sources to wk:global networking, misc. Started looking for a first short story, but that may have to wait. Blum 02:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 12:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
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 * Thanks very much Steven Fruitsmaak. Goedendag, Blum 14:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

User_talk:Nzgabriel
Another reply posted by Nzgabriel. See here, User_talk:Nzgabriel. Thanks, --Nzgabriel | Talk 05:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Christian social agency may lose state funding
I don't normally do this, but you are new and have expressed concern that your story might end up abandoned. I will try to work on your story for you and perhaps together we can get it published. The main problem, as I see it before I begin, is that it essentially is single-source the other sources are only used for background. You should browse around in WN:SG for help in writing articles. --SVTCobra 23:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I put nowiki around a section in your user-talk because otherwise your user-talk shows up in the categories. --SVTCobra 00:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I finished my rewrite. You can see it here Kentucky faith-based agency under fire for religious coercion. I couldn't puplish yet. It needs a second independent source. I appealed for one on the talk page, but at least it is back in ready. --SVTCobra 02:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It got published. But the Courier-Journal is still almost the singular source. Not sure what to do about that. --SVTCobra 03:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Put a thanks on your talk page, and thanks also for the nowiki thing.Blum 06:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:HG1


text:
Fixed election dates to become law in Canadian federal elections

May 3, 2007

A bill that would set fixed election dates in Canada every four years is scheduled to receive royal assent and become law today.

Since, a sitting government could choose any date for an election as long as it was less than five years after the writs were returned for the previous election, unless it was defeated by a. By convention, elections have been held every four years, often when the governing party was doing well in the polls. Bill C-16, first introduced in the House May 30, 2006, would create predictable election dates every four years.

The bill was one of the democratic reforms originally promised by the Harper conservatives during the campaign. , the past minister for democratic reform who introduced the bill, said that the new law will make elections fairer for all parties: "fixed election dates will improve the fairness of Canada's electoral system by eliminating the ability of governing parties to manipulate the timing of elections for partisan advantage."

The bill comes amid speculation as to how long the can last. When the bill becomes law, Prime Minister Stephen Harper will be unable to call an election on his own. The opposition parties would still have the power to force an election with a vote of no-confidence against the government.

Under bill C-16, an election would have to be called for the third Monday of October four years after the last federal election unless opposition parties force one earlier. If the date conflicts with a provincial election or a religious occasion, the election can be moved by a few days. The proposed more situations for which the date could be moved, but that amendment was rejected by the, with some parliamentarians saying that a government could find limitless opportunities to move the date, and that it was ironic for the unelected Senate to propose amendments on a bill concerning elections.

Fixed elections would only apply to the federal level, but the provinces of British Columbia, Ontario, and Newfoundland and Labrador have already implemented fixed election dates for their own provincial elections, and New Brunswick is considering them.

Under the law, the would be scheduled for October 19, 2009.


text:
Kentucky faith-based agency under fire for religious coercion

May 5, 2007

A lawsuit filed by a former employee of Kentucky Baptist Homes for Children (now Sunrise Children's Services) and four other tax-payers, has shed light on the possibility of religious coercion by the organization. The lawsuit challenges the faith-based agency's eligibility for state funds.

Specifically, interviews of children conducted by the state of Kentucky have revealed complaints from some of the children. Mainly, children who said they were Catholic, Pentecostal, Jehovah's Witnesses or atheist voiced complaints in the interviews.

"They tried to more [or] less force me to become a Christian," said one child in an exit interview. "I just felt I was being pressured into giving up my religion."

Another child reported s/he was "not allowed to choose when or when not to attend a religious service," per the interview, and was told "'to do' some type of Bible study during that time or get consequences."

Both the Commonwealth of Kentucky and Sunrise say there is a strict policy against proselytizing in the program and that it does not prevent children from practising their individual faiths.

They also stress that these complaints number merely a "handful" among the approximately 1,500 children that are served by the faith-based agency.

"If a child says, 'I don't want to go to the Baptist church,' then the child does not go," Jonathan Goldberg, the state's attorney, said. Some children might have mistankenly believed they were forced to go, he added.

The plaintiffs are seeking to have the interviews unsealed, at least in the cases where the child is now 18 years of age or older. The state and Sunrise argue they need to be kept confidential.

The lawsuit originated with Alicia Pedreira, who was fired in 2000. She alleges her firing was direct result of Sunrise (then Kentucky Baptist Homes for Children) finding out she is a lesbian.

Sunrise Children's Services provides residential programs and foster care homes for children that have suffered abuse or neglect. Since 2001, Kentucky has paid Sunrise US$61 million to provide the services for children who would otherwise be in direct state custody.

In 2001, the state did find cause for action against one of Sunrise's homes to fix "a coercive religious environment" where staff members confirmed that church attendance was required.

With accusations of undue pressure by a Christian agency funded by the state, the Sunrise case bears some similitude to the lawsuit against Iowa for paying Chuck Colson's evangelical agency to run part of its prison.

Last June, U.S. District Judge Robert W. Pratt strongly reprimanded and ruled against Iowa's use of a Christian social service agency to administer its prison. Judge Pratt stated: "For all practical purposes, the state has literally established an Evangelical Christian congregation within the walls of one of its penal institutions... There are no adequate safeguards present, nor could there be, to ensure that state funds are not being directly spent to indoctrinate Iowa inmates."

The Iowa ruling is pending appeal.

Critics point to both of these cases as failures of George W. Bush's faith-based services initiative. The program is often seen as conflicting with the tradition of separation of church and state in the United States.


text: File:Arctic sea ice extent5 sm.jpg

title: File:Arctic sea ice extent5 sm.jpg