text:
Talk:U.K. National Portrait Gallery threatens U.S. citizen with legal action over Wikimedia images

Poor man's equivalent
This was started under story development. There are email queries outstanding that will not be answered until Monday at the earliest. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This version is already better than the prepared story, and I haven't even fleshed it out yet. Uncle G (talk) 22:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but don't publish yet. Wait and see what responses we get. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not near publication yet. ☺  Uncle G (talk) 23:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Biographical details
Hi, thank you for doing this story - I just wanted to note that I've been advised to remove my biographical details from my userpage, and unless you consider them relevant to this story I'd appreciate it if they could also be omitted here. Thank you. :-) Dcoetzee (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've weighed the relevance of the information in question to the story against the right to privacy of the entity named and the likely degree of its involvement in the matter, and removed the information from the article. I note in passing that this was information that I was taking on trust in the first draft of the article, which is still in development, and that I had not yet checked. Uncle G (talk) 00:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

External coverage
FYI I'm keeping a list of external sites covering this event at Commons:User:Dcoetzee/NPG_legal_threat/Coverage, which you may find useful. Dcoetzee (talk) 23:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Getty
Not sure if anything can be used from this, a piece by someone from Getty on PD-Art. --Brian McNeil / talk 07:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly want to use that, because there's material there that echoes what has been said in the discussion fora debates over the weekend. I'm trying to work out how to do so. Uncle G (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's worth clarifying that this is by the J. Paul Getty Trust, which is a very different institution from the more well-known Getty Images with rather different views on this matter. Dcoetzee (talk) 03:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Original Reporting
To try and get more information I have made a number of attempts to contact for comment.
 * UK Department of Culture
 * Shadow Culture Secretary
 * National Portrait Gallery press contacts
 * The NPG have responded that they are drafting a statement for publication today. --Brian McNeil / talk 11:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Arts Council press contacts
 * Said they have nothing to do with NPG, forwarded query to Culture dept press contact.
 * Requested they comment anyway in light of Victoria and Albert museum working on 'Wikipedia Loves Art'. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Declined to comment on an org (NPG) they're not involved with. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Jim Killock said:
 * Stephen Fry's publicist
 * Open Rights Group
 * Just got a reply asking if we're still looking for comment on this? Looks like I'll get something. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Response:

"It's pretty clear that these images themselves should be in the public domain. There is a clear public interest in making sure  paintings and other works are usable by anyone once their term of  copyright expires. This is what US courts have recognised, whatever  the situation in UK law." At the present time we do not have any statement or comment to make on this issue, as we are not involved in this dispute.
 * Jim Killock is the executive director of the Open Rights Group. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * EFF (Requested comment from EFF Europe)
 * Victoria and Albert museum
 * UK Liberal Democrat Culture &c person
 * Emailed a couple of other uploaders of NPG images, including at least one in the UK
 * One responded, unconcerned. Other quite concerned and wants nothing to do with it. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Prof. Clunas, Oxford University Fine Art dept
 * Jay Walsh of the WMF (very bland email asking for statement of position)
 * Wikimedia UK press contact address
 * Response from WMF Wikimedia UK Chair...

Thanks, Mike Peel Chair, Wikimedia UK I will post responses as they turn up. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Will add to article. --Brian McNeil / talk 21:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I have sent a somewhat grumpy email to all three Members of Parliament mentioned above, with a link to this article. Perhaps they will give a response suitable for use in a followup (it must be optimist day, usually I'd expect to be writing UK MPs useless at answering emails). --Brian McNeil / talk 18:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussions online
This is kicking up quite some discussion online. Not just the J. Random, Talking head on Slashdot. The WMF Chair, Michael Snow has commented on the foundation-l mailing list, "Properly speaking, I would not consider something an archive if it is not accessible. For collections that are not available for study, the more correct term would be 'vault'. " --Brian McNeil / talk 08:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. There have been quite a few discussions of public policy.  I think that there's a Mike Godwin quotation to be had somewhere, too.  I'm looking more for commentary from non-Foundation people, though.  Uncle G (talk) 12:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have reason to believe that the NPG have previously tried to menace the WMF over this before resorting to 'personalised' legal threats. I have a conflict of interest that precludes asking Mike Godwin about this. Off-wiki I can provide his email for anyone seeking comment. Do we have a stashed email for Dcoetzee?--Brian McNeil / talk 12:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The prior requests (Remember your NPOV!) from the NPG are one thing that I want to include, here. There are, of course, the edits in w:en:Special:Contributions/217.207.85.50 (q.v.), for starters. I'm talking about statements that Godwin has already publicly made, by the way.  Uncle G (talk) 12:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything prior on this will have been in some way brushed off, w:Template:PD-Art has the Foundation position on this: US organisation, US servers, tough luck people like the NPG. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but prior requests amplify the point that this is an ongoing concern for the NPG, that it has been pursuing since at least 2005, and give some context to the story. They will also serve to introduce discussion of the Foundation's position.  For that, by the way, a community edited template is not a good source.  The volunteer community's understanding of the Foundation's position is not as good an official statement of the Foundation's position from an actual officer of the Foundation.  There's a message from Erik Möller in his official capacity, somewhere. In any case, that template is on the wrong wiki.  Even if a volunteer community statement were desired, the source to look to would be on the Wikimedia Commons. Uncle G (talk) 13:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I picked a few random contributions from that IP. From there I tracked down a couple of other uploaders to contact for comment. They're not in the firing line yet, but have an interest in the outcome here. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I found and used Erik Möller's official message. Uncle G (talk) 16:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Digital Britain Report
Does this tie into the NPR stuff in any way? --Brian McNeil / talk 12:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I had such high hopes when I read one of the chapter titles. But it appears to focus almost exclusively on television and news reporting.  There's nary a mention of museums and galleries, there. Uncle G (talk) 13:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I get any bite from politicians I've emailed I might can throw the name in and they'll forget that little detail. ;-) --Brian McNeil / talk 14:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It's certainly worth asking the politicians their opinions of how this issue matches up with the "digital delivery of public services" part of the Digital Britain vision.  Have you considered asking Peter Mandelson and Ben Bradshaw their views, given that they wrote the foreword to the report?  Uncle G (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ben Bradshaw is among my more recent shotgun-issued queries. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Thank you.  Uncle G (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

NPG Statement
Talk:U.K. National Portrait Gallery threatens U.S. citizen with legal action over Wikimedia images/NPG statement. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. That doesn't tally with the Kaldari mails supplied below. Uncle G (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Dicussion with NPG from 2006
In case this is useful: commons:User:Kaldari/NPG email Kaldari (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this looks pretty interesting. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. That almost tallies with some public statements that I've read, although those indicated that the situation was resolved, rather than dangling in mid-air as that correspondence indicates.  But it flatly contradicts the "To date, Wikipedia has not responded to our requests to discuss the issue" statement. Of course, there's an amount of he-said-she-said here.  We're only being supplied with redacted copies of purported electronic mail messages by their recipients, with no confirmation from the senders that that is indeed what was sent, for example.  But there are public statements from others to the effect that yes a discussion between Commons editors and the NPG took place in 2006, and people were under the impression that this was the agreement.  So that much at least has some independent confirmation.  I'll double check the discussions.  Uncle G (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've asked Gregory Maxwell if he knows more info about what went down in 2006, but I haven't heard anything back yet. Kaldari (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

NPG Wikipedia contributions

 * Wikipedia contributions

Of note...
 * promoting NPG exhibition July 11, 2008
 * promoting NPG exhibition December 8, 2006
 * copyright claim on image November 28, 2006
 * ditto October 25, 2006
 * ditto July 13, 2006
 * ditto, identifies as NPG July 13, 2006
 * first edit - removed image August 18, 2005

In response to this, and the two vandalism edits to the YouTube founder's article, I've sent a response to the NPG with some questions about 217.207.85.50 - is it staff only, or public? And the rosalind franklin edit (July 13, 2006). Here they've asserted copyright over a picture from the U.S. NIH. --Brian McNeil / talk 11:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC) "Hi Brian
 * Response:

Thanks for your reply and also for bringing to our attention the edits made from an IP address belonging to the National Portrait Gallery. We will treat this matter seriously and I’ll begin investigating this now. I’m sure we will be in touch again soon but in the meantime please do let me know if I can be of any further help.

All the best

Eleanor

--

Eleanor Macnair

Press Officer

Communications & Development

National Portrait Gallery St Martin's Place London WC2H OHE"

 * From this I'd read an admission that the above IP address is theirs. What remains to be seen is if it is publicly accessible, or staff-only. From the nature of the contributions I would be firmly of the opinion it is exclusively the latter. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The response is much along the lines that I expected it to be: A polite thanks, an acknowledgement that the IP address is assigned to the NPG (which isn't in any doubt), and a statement that the matter will be investigated.  Uncle G (talk) 13:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Last-minute fishing
Just emailed them a link to our article to give them a final opportunity to comment before publication. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC) Hi Brian
 * I suggest letting them have until at least 16:00 UTC (which will be 17:00 local time). Uncle G (talk) 13:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Per initial feedback reminding me they're investigating the IP edits I have made this change. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Only one minor quibble with that: I still maintain that we can call it the NPG's IP address.  It most definitely is.  I researched this in the RIPE NCC records.  The IP address range 217.207.85.48/26 is assigned to the National Portrait Gallery, via Easynet.  217.207.85.50 is the only one of those 16 IP addresses that has edited the English Wikipedia.  (I checked the contributions histories of all of the others.) Uncle G (talk) 14:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't dispute we can call it the NPG's IP address, it is how we characterise contributions from it that concerns me.

Thank you for sending this over – much appreciated. I’m going quickly circulate this to the parties involved to check that the actions are accurate.

At the moment we are still investigating the matter you raised in your previous e-mail:

On the day that the NPG's solicitors contacted Coetzee, the NPG added the words "CHINK" and "FUCKING CHINK!" to Wikipedia's article on Steve Chen, co-founder of YouTube. (The edits by the NPG can be seen here and here.)

It is inaccurate to say that the National Portrait Gallery added these words as this is a matter under investigation and the wording implies that the Gallery as an institution has added these words – which is not the case. I will be in touch as soon as I have made any progress on this.

When are you putting your article live? I will endeavour to get back to you before your deadline.

Thanks Brian

Best wishes

Eleanor Dear Brian
 * The above is their quibble with this section. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I understood that from reading the edit itself. And that wasn't my quibble with the alteration. ☺  Uncle G (talk) 15:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not totally sure what your quibble is. I think it is save to assume that the actions have been unsanctioned and not documented by the NPG. Reword as appropriate in light of their remarks.
 * Following is latest response on the 2 recent vandalism edits --Brian McNeil / talk 16:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I have a statement about the edits to Wikipedia from the IP Address you previously sent to me:

The National Portrait Gallery unreservedly condemns any use of racist or offensive language. This claim was presented to us at 12.51 today and we are actively investigating whether these remarks were sent from a National Portrait Gallery user account. Until we have established this we are not in a position to comment.

Would you be able to tell me if the time of the offensive edits (listed as 14.39 and 14.40 ) is UK time or US time as this would help with our investigations.

We are happy that you have included our full statement in your article.

Best wishes

Eleanor Hi Brian
 * I hope that you told her that the times logged are in UTC. I'm going to try for some better wording. Uncle G (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, I wrote back ASAP to tell them all edits are UTC. Taking their claim to be investigating this on good faith I feel obliged to give whatever information I can for their investigation. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Response, they'd like this issue dropped from the article. I'm not going to express an opinion one way or the other, up to you Uncle G. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying this – very helpful. Also, thank you for adding our statement into the article so quickly, this is much appreciated.

These offensive edits to Wikipedia are a separate issue to the debate surrounding images. We would really appreciate it if would remove the section below from the article at this time as it isn’t relevant to the debate about the images.

(On the day that the NPG's solicitors contacted Coetzee, the anonymous contributor at the NPG added the words "CHINK" and "FUCKING CHINK!" to Wikipedia's article on Steve Chen, co-founder of YouTube. (The edits can be seen here and here.))

I assure you that we will be in touch further about these edits as our investigation moves on. However, of course this editorial decision is up to you.

Thanks again for your help today Brian and for bringing this to our attention. I am sure we will be in touch again soon!

Best wishes Eleanor

It's a trucky editorial decision. My second thought is to reduce the issue to one sentence, something along the lines of "Other, later, edits made on the day that NPG's solicitors contacted Coetzee and drawn to the NPG's attention by Wikinews, are currently the subject of an internal investigation within the NPG.". My first thought, as you can see by what I did before I came back to the talk page and noticed this, was to beef up the coverage of the copyright edits, because with the statement added the article did appear to be focussing too much on the "CHINK" edits. I think that there are competing forces at work. Yes, the relevance is only what could be called the shooting-in-the-foot factor. But people have already noticed these edits in association with this, and more will no doubt do so. I'm thinking that it better serves the reader to acknowledge their existence and note the actions of the NPG, than to remain totally silent on a point that readers probably will later discover independently. I'm also thinking that it serves the NPG well, too. Readers learn that it hasn't ignored the issue, which may serve to prevent greater fuss being made by them over it. Uncle G (talk) 17:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons
I understand the desire to clarify what Wikimedia Commons is in this context. However, I'm simply not sure that the fact stated is actually correct. The English Wikipedia has its own local repository, and I have no information as to which of the two, that or the Commons, can be considered the "main" one. The reader can, of course follow the interwiki link to find out what the Commons is. Uncle G (talk) 13:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Publication
I hope that the article now covers everything, and gives the reader a proper grasp of events and of the story. All of the things that were on my original checklist to add are now there. How much longer should we wait for comment from the people listed as approached for comment above? And is there any aspect of the story that is missing? Uncle G (talk) 03:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd give 12 hours max for anyone else to respond. I can assume some won't so I'll be needing to do "ignore the press at your peril" followups. --Brian McNeil / talk 07:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I just sent another request for response from the culture secretary, Ben Bradshaw. This is now three mails sent - one to the department and two to the MP's office. I will also hit the shadow secretary again. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow Culture Secretary and Liberal Democrat equivalent also emailed again. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Images
A couple more images would be good, if possible. – Juliancolton  | Talk 15:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny man! ☺  I, personally, took the same stance as other news reporters have done here, which is to not embroil Wikinews in the copyright dispute itself.  This means not employing any of the disputed images in the article.  It's an interesting situation, reporting on a news story where the only physical, and thus imagable, elements of the story are paintings, images of which are the subjects of the very copyright dispute that the story is about.  Uncle G (talk) 15:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources/External/References or footnotes
As the sources section was getting scarily long I selected some links and split them off into an external links section. I know some may actually be used to source material, but these were undated references and pieces of legislation I'd never expect someone to read in their entirety to fact-check the article.

A secondary point is that there are several external link symbols throughout the article. Among other things, these link to diff listings on Wikipedia. I'm generally against using ref syntax on Wikinews, but for such an in-depth article it would seem appropriate here as a way of preventing details like this breaking the flow of the article. What such a section is named? I'm open to suggestions. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * has a wikinews url shortener. Would it be useful to pass diff and other deep-links through this? Depending on how its done, it would mean anyone sourcing from us would use wikinews-related links. Might be too late to do this here, but should this be something we can privately use? If made world-accessible it would get added to the WMF blacklist as a potential way to slip in links to goatse and such. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The length of the URLs themselves only matters to someone concerned with the raw wikitext, since none of them are bare URLs. As such, their lengths don't matter to readers.  I'd also prefer not to use shortened URLs, e.g. tinyURL and its ilk, simply as a service to readers who want to know what they are being directed to before they follow a hyperlink. Uncle G (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not really happy with "External links" as that section's title, especially given that, as you've observed, they are far from the only external links. It also upsets the traditional expectation that external links were not used as sources.  How about sub-headings within "Sources"?  The sources that you mention can be under a "Background information" third-level header. Uncle G (talk) 13:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

On publication
When published I strongly recommend inserting a wikinews link to this story into the National Portrait Gallery's Wikipedia page. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

References to logs
Suggest that the log references (which currently include user=Lar parameters) be changed to so that if in future someone else should act, that will be reflected in the log. It is entirely possible that someone other than myself may well take action, neither of the actions I took is irreversible. I was not sure about the practices here so refrained from making this change myself. ++Lar: t/c 15:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's best, as said below, for the subjects of this news story to be kept at arm's length by Wikinews. Thank you for sticking to the talk page only.  The intention of those URLs, listed as they are as sources, is to show the sources used and thereby provide verification for the facts stated in the story, namely the actions that you, specifically, took.  If there were a way to hyperlink to an individual log entry, I'd have used it.  If someone makes further log entries in a month's or a year's time, that really isn't relevant to this news report, which deals in the events that have just happened. Uncle G (talk) 15:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Suffice it to say I agree about the arms-length-ness. However I disagree about the logs themselves, because there is a very real chance that someone else might well make such a change, within the time window this news report covers. Certainly if no one does, by the time it's time to archive this, they could be returned to this format I suppose. There is another factual correction needed in them, although it's very minor, the title of the second one was lacking "on Wikimedia Commons"... SUL will show Dc has accounts in many places and adding it in reduces confusion. ++Lar: t/c 18:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be most likely that any edit that would show up in the log links you suggest within a reasonable window (24-48 hours post-publication) could be considered a new development, and thus merit a new story. There's a lot of people been contacted who have not yet responded and is a potential for a followup between now and any point at which the NPG moves to real legal action. --Brian McNeil / talk 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikinews reports cover events up to the point of publication. If further events happen, even in the period between publication and archival, our general policy is to start a new article (as long as those events are newsworthy).  There are quite a few discussions of this around the place, but this is the basic gist. Here's an example of our doing this:  Whilst U.S. manufacturer General Motors seeks bankruptcy protection was between publication and archival, Barack Obama and the company's CEO made speeches.  We didn't revise the news report of the earlier event.  We wrote two new reports instead: Barack Obama presents rescue plan after GM declaration of bankruptcy and CEO of GM outlines plan for "New GM" after auto company declared bankruptcy.  New newsworthy events after publication, therefore new article. Uncle G (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Looming
We've heard back from the NPG. It is now 18:01 UTC, which is 19:01 local time in the U.K.. I don't want to wait too much longer for moving to review status. Uncle G (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I've pushed for all the input I can get. I'm not sure we can wait on Jay at the WMF, and my thoughts about the politicians I've been trying to contact are unrepeatable. As long as the ORG bit is worked in I'd say put up for review. Your choice if you add to the NPG assertion of no contact with the WMF with us getting no response from them. If it is in the next few hours it can always be added. Oh, and use urgent review. --Brian McNeil / talk 18:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Killock's opinion is already in, in the final section. It's now 18:58 UTC.  I'm moving to review.  Uncle G (talk) 18:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

David Gerard is NOT WMUK press officer
I was for WMUK v1, I'm not for WMUK v2, at all. I've added a "[THIS IS INCORRECT]" note to the article. I'm a volunteer media contact for WMF, though less and less of late (WMUK's number seems to be propagating). I have no official status with the WMF or any chapter - David Gerard (talk) 13:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your home page, used as the source for this information, said, and still says right now, otherwise. I'll put the word "former" in. As a former press officer, you'll no doubt understand our desire, as a NPOV news service, to keep the subjects of the story that Wikinews has close association with at arm's length, here, and not have them write the story themselves.  This is why editing the article directly is a bad idea.  Ryan Kaldari and Derrick Coatzee both edited just this talk page, notice. Uncle G (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I need to update the home page sooner rather than later. I'll do so now. I edted the article as well to avoid the risk of it falling through the cracks - David Gerard (talk) 19:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want a quote from Wikimedia UK please get in touch with someone at Wikimedia UK and we'll consider what we're prepared to say. But our current strategy is to keep our heads firmly below water on this as we don't want to become a target. In light of this I'm particularly uncomfortable with our name being mentioned in connection with someone who was acting entirely independent of us (and indeed has never been a member of - or in any way affiliated with - our organisation). David Gerard remains a UK press contact for the WMF, but, at present at least, has nothing official to do with Wikimedia UK. --Cfp (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC) (Treasurer, Wikimedia UK)
 * Check the emails to your press contact address. I asked for comment earlier today. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Sorry the person to whom that address goes had only just seen that e-mail. Our opinion on at least one of the issues at stake can be seen here. But I do not think we wish to comment further on details of any current discussions between the NPG and any other party. --Cfp (talk) 20:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Please can this article be corrected to reflect the fact that David Gerard has no official involvement with Wikimedia UK in its current incarnation, and never has? Linking his name and comments to Wikimedia UK is wholly inappropriate and inaccurate. At the present time, Wikimedia UK is not involved in any way with this dispute, and as such is not commenting on it. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * This is part of why I edited the article directly - Wikinews is notoriously bad at fixing factually incorrect or misleading details when the writer is particularly fond of a turn of phrase - David Gerard (talk) 21:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikinews is, well, Wikinews. In this case you're glossing over the situation - or at least the history leading up to it. Until this article/issue started getting pushed it was still on David Gerard's web page that he was the UK press contact. That historical, and widely known position is one the rest of the media acts from; I take it as an unreasonable and unfair characterisation to represent Wikinews' (note, no capitalised "N") position as wilfully disregarding a near-unnnanounced change of circumstance. I know there's a difference between WMUK v1 and v2, but our readers don't, and nor do other press seem to.
 * It would be nice to see the current WMUK appoint some press spokesperson, or otherwise nominate someone to be a voice to the world on this issue. It isn't going to go away in a hurry, and there are a lot of people want to see this fought in courts - UK, US, and wherever else there is a chance of money being made or lost. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Some brief review comments
As a non-regular Wikinews contributor, the tone could be a bit cooler. For example would we go into some points in such depth, for a story that was about some other body or issue? Or include a sentence phrased more like a disclaimer: "Like most Wikimedians, he is a volunteer at the wiki projects, and not an employee or representative of the Foundation that provides and operates them." Not that the coverage isn't neutral or the points inaccurate, more that the tone is a shade too "warm" in a few places.

I'm having a go at addressing the tone issue slightly.

FT2 (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I've also added a section giving background on the parties. I don't know if this is the best way to do it, but there are presumptions that will be applied to Commons (such as the meaning of "administrator", or how Commons is organized), and also scattered information on the solicitors in two separate places. It's easier to collect all similar "useful background material" in one place. Please improve how this is presented, if possible. FT2 (Talk 22:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Peer review
I'm in the process of doing a peer review of this version. Are there are any major further changes expected or should I publish the version when I'm done with my review? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say go ahead and publish. --Brian McNeil / talk 22:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Killing beat me to that. I'm not going to disagree but I have slight concern about one sentence. "In part, this failure may have been because of a misunderstanding by the National Portrait Gallery of Wikipedia's free content mandate; and of the difference between Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundation, the Wikimedia Commons, and the individual volunteer workers who participate on the various projects supported by the Foundation." Do we have reason to conclude that any fault lied with the Gallery and not miscommunication for example? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * The template under review can be used so that redundant reviews don't get undertaken. --SVTCobra 22:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Still posting some further improvements - when I'm done can they be reviewed too. And being new to the publishing cycle at Wikinews, what is the correct template to indicate that revisions are being done to update the draft, and the template will be removed when it's ready for re-review? Assuming that's how it works. FT2 (Talk 22:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * You are ok. Your edits won't appear in the article until they are sighted by a user with editor status. It won't require another full review. --SVTCobra 22:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Ok - thanks for that. FT2 (Talk 22:59, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, I didn't expect you to re-write the entire article. Is there a single sentence that you have not changed? --SVTCobra 01:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Done, I think. FT2 (Talk 02:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Image
Would it be OK to include a sample NPG image from Commons? --SVTCobra 22:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I have vague feelings that the article almost seems to take a pro free-content/pro Wikipedia side without including a copy of one of the disputed pictures. Maybe instead include a low-res copy with a note that a low res copy is clear ok? JoshuaZ (talk) 22:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would not put a NPG image on it. Use the Commons logo if you must. I'd suggest QuoteLeft and QuoteRight for decoration. --Brian McNeil / talk 22:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

WMF response
Not too late, needs worked in... Brian, the Foundation has prepared the following statement on the recent NPG activities Regarding recent actions by the National Portrait Gallery (London, UK) towards a Wikipedia user. The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally. To that end, we have very productive working relationships with a number of galleries, archives, museums and libraries around the world, who join with us to make their educational materials available to the public. Unfortunately, during the week of July 6, 2009, the National Portrait Gallery, based in London, UK, issued a legal threat against a Wikipedia user. The Wikimedia Foundation does not control user behavior, nor have we reviewed every action taken by that user. Nonetheless, it is our general understanding that the user in question has behaved in accordance with our mission, with the general goal of making public domain materials available via our Wikimedia Commons project, and in accordance with applicable law. We regret that the National Portrait Gallery has not attempted to engage in constructive dialogue, either with the Wikimedia Foundation or the Wikimedia community of volunteers, and has chosen instead to issue legal threats. The Wikimedia volunteer community is discussing this issue independently, and some thoughtful arguments on the matter can be found in community blogs, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-07-13/Open_letter

-- Jay Walsh Head of Communications WikimediaFoundation.org blog.wikimedia.org

This would - obviously supercede the earlier remark by the chairman. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I've asked Jay Walsh if there is a reliable source to cite this from. It isn't yet on the blog. Its best not to add it until formal, I've removed it for now. When it's confirmed, the proposed edit is here. FT2 (Talk 23:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I rolled back to the version with the statement, this statement is from Jay's WMF email address to my wikinewsie email address, and copied to the scoop distribution list all accredited reporters are on. From other private correspondence I can say this will not appear elsewhere unless it is a news site that Jay has also sent this to; it will not be published as such on the blog. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Post-publication coverage
Okay, I'd like to keep a list here of other stories that come up in Google News after ours.

I have this, from a search for National Portrait Gallery. I currently see Wikinews as the most recent source, listed in the top section with the Gruniard and el-Reg. There's also a huge pull-quote from the Wikinews article... "...plaintiff in that case, Bridgeman Art Library, stated in 2006 in written evidence to the House of Commons Committee on Culture, Media and Sport that it was "looking for a similar test case in the UK or Europe to fight which would strengthen our position"

--Brian McNeil / talk 00:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * The Gruniard source was after we published, DCoetzee seems to be keeping a fairly comprehensive list. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Great story
I wanted to thank you all for your hard work on this story, which does a great job of informing the public about the situation and pulling in lots of relevant sources. Keep up the good work. :-) Dcoetzee (talk) 03:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

International context
http://archiv.twoday.net/stories/5405864/ http://hangingtogether.org/?p=692 --FrobenChristoph (talk) 04:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Legal Issues?
This article appears to contain unjustified legal interpretation. Example:

"Under United States law, where both the website and Coetzee are located, a photograph of a non-copyrighted 2 dimensional picture (such as a very old portrait) is not capable of being copyrighted, and it may be freely distributed and used by anyone."

As far as I'm aware, there is no such law in the United States, though if there is and you can cite it, I would love to know of it. There has been a legal court case settled in the Southern District of New York in which this was concluded (the Bridgeman case), but as that was not a Federal Supreme Court case, it is non-binding in the rest of the US, and not really adequate grounds to call precedence, TIANAL (and I bet the article writer isn't, either). C'valyi d'Jade (talk) 04:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * The Bridgeman case seems to be fairly widely accepted as case law. Clarifying it as "case law" probably wouldn't hurt though. Done. What's interesting that I hadn't known, is that "Bridgeman" in turn was heard under UK law, and draws for its decision upon UK cases (where the Gallery is located) by high level courts in the UK (the UK's Privy Council and House of Lords respectively). The full ruling is rather long! That hadn't been noted and it's of significance since it's often considered a purely domestic ruling; this additional information directly affects whether the case has any likely legal standing in the UK. FT2 (Talk 09:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The original text, before it was rewritten, quite explicitly said "A case in U.S. law". Uncle G (talk) 14:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Bridgeman is a US case but unusually, it was explicitly decided under the UK legal system (1st time around) and later under the US legal system. Its backing cases were from the House of Lords and Privy Council respectively, both as English and binding a decision as the Supreme Court would be for a US matter. To describe the legal basis as simply "a case in US law" is therefore misleading, since a reader will gain an incorrect impression - that Bridgeman drew on US not UK law; that its cited cases were probably US ones; that UK law does not contain such precedents, and that if any do exist they are unconnected to the Bridgeman case cited in the NPG/Coetzee matter. It is therefore important to state both sides:
 * The edited version therefore states that "Copyright is claimed to exist in the country where the gallery is situated" and "Under UK law that point has not yet been decided, and the Gallery's solicitors state that such photographs could potentially be subject to copyright in that country."
 * On the other side it explains the legal background a bit, and that Bridgeman (widely considered a precedent affecting the US) was in fact based on both UK and US frameworks. Within the UK legal framework it was based upon rulings by the House of Lords and Privy Council on intellectual property rights in the UK. Those rulings directly considered issues such as originality, copyrightability, status of reproductions and indefinite monopoly via reproduction.
 * FT2 (Talk 16:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nonetheless, it is a case in U.S. law, not "widely accepted as case law" around the world. Uncle G (talk) 01:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

British v English
I've now twice corrected the first line from English to British. Just because we are in dispute with them doesn't mean we should misrepresent them, however extensive their collection of specifically English portraits they were setup by the British Government as a National gallery for Britain and an important part of their collection predates devolution to Scotland and Wales. I.e whether a nineteenth or twentieth century British Prime minister was English, Welsh or Scottish their portrait will be in that gallery. WereSpielChequers (talk) 12:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They are English and Welsh. Or, at least, they are governed under the laws of England and Wales. Ever since the act of union Scotland has retained a separate legal system. Their law has nothing to do with the NPG. As this is a legal dispute the distinction is important. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Is it possible that the gallery covers British people, but is bound by English law? The 1992 Act that created the current trust has legislative authority in England and Wales, but all its references to the trust's role are to "portraiture of British persons and British history". . FT2 (Talk 12:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt it holds pictures of Scots and Irish - but the point is that it's all under English law, a critical part of the story. made a deliberate and clear decision to stick with that, it seems sensible and I'd want his input before changing that detail. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a shame when "corrections" aren't fact checked. This is the English National Portrait Gallery. There is a quite separate Scottish one, in Edinburgh. Uncle G (talk) 14:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And this really didn't have anything to do with the legal system, by the way. That's later in the article, notice.  This is the first few words of the first sentence of the lead, and our readership is worldwide and doesn't know the story already.  So right away it tells the reader which, of the several "National Portrait Gallery"s in the world, and even the multiple ones in the U.K. (per the headline), is the one that the story involves, without spending too much time on the details that will be gone into later in the story.  The Gallery is the one in England, the English one.  I didn't write "English National Portrait Gallery", notice.  I wrote "English National Portrait Gallery". Uncle G (talk) 15:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Brianmc, I really don't see where you're coming from with this 'English law' argument that you keep using as a basis for reverting. I've scoured the article and I can find no reference to 'English law' except once in the Museums Copyright Group statement, and that seems to be made off-hand. Conversely the article is peppered with the phrase 'UK law'. Indeed the article states the relevent legislation is the Copyrights Designs and Patents Act, which applies to the whole country. Please tell me where exactly English law comes into it?

 * Assuming I'm correct, Uncle G still makes a valid point about the global readership. Still, the gallery's remit is for British portraits, which makes it a gallery about Britain. I suggest that we could change it to "The National Portrait Gallery (NPG) in London, England", which still specifies its English location for the reader but does not incorrectly imply it only deals with English art. --78.146.208.227 (talk) 17:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

 * You don't even seem to be making an effort to see the distinction I did and, frankly, Uncle G's point kills English vs British dead. If you'd been saying "London's National Portrait Gallery" that might have made more sense, but you're looking for a more generic description that ignores the political landscape of the UK. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am fully aware Scotland has a devolved parliament - what I am apparently failing to understand is in how this is in any way relevant. I repeat, where does English law come into it? Which English law in particular? And why does "London's" make more sense? Why shouldn't there be a more generic description - the political landscape of the UK doesn't come into this at all? If this article was dealing with the Scottish NPG and you'd wanted to call it a British gallery the converse argument would also be valid. --78.146.208.227 (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you finished ranting about being reverted? You've done a fine job of saying "I don't like your arguments", but you've done bugger all to justify calling this the British National Portrait Gallery. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And I should think not, considering that's not what I've been proposing at all.

 * You're being very hypocritical. You haven't answered any of my questions. --78.146.208.227 (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Concerns
I didn't have time to review FT2's changes as xe made them, but in summation they are a cause for some concern. I've been busy in Another Place (several, actually). I am concerned that some information has been lost and some bias has been introduced by them. I was being quite careful with what I originally wrote about the Museums Copyright Group, for example, stating just the facts without implying any conclusions. Similarly, the problems observed on the talk page with the legal issues text that FT2 added, are the very reasons that I was quite careful when writing up the legal issues, avoiding as best I could stating any legal conclusions beyond what are already in law textbooks, and aiming to simply outline the problem, so that readers know why the case would be significant in law. I notice, too, that we've lost a whole lot of names and details, changing active voice to passive voice to cover up those losses. That's not good writing. Wikinews' style guide recommends active voice, and there was no real reason to change this and lose information in doing so. We've also lost mention of Wikipedia Review, for no good reason, even though several of the public policy discussions mentioned in the story took place there. We've lost explanation of a non-departmental public body, and a link to an explanation of what an administrator on MediaWiki actually is. We've also mis-represented the NPG, to make it seem that it's only actions over the years have been against Wikipedia and the Commons, when clearly it has been asserting its copyright to several people, not least to M. Crowell. Uncle G (talk) 15:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Quick comments -
 * You'll note that no legal conclusions are drawn. But the facts of the legal background are highly salient. For example, "Bridgeman" is often quoted as a US case - it turns out to be rather relevant to the news article that "Bridgeman" was decided twice, applying UK and then US law, and drawing on multiple "Law Lord" rulings. No conclusions being drawn and the material being accurately cited and salient, I don't think the legal material added is a problem in the sense you're concerned about. It clarifies that the US case is closely related to (and drawn from) UK law, and indicates the provenance and main rulings.
 * One name is removed - the user (Lar) who responded by blocking the account and desysopping the user. Not necessary to name every user who did anything, and Lar's name isn't furthering the story. Other names do, and those are left in.
 * A number of sites have discussed the matter, from Slashdot onwards, since the initial email was posted up. The removal of Wikipedia Review isn't due to pro/anti issues, it's because put simply, its interest is as a specialist site discussing anything that happens on Wikipedia; it doesnt add to the story anything that suggests wider interest by the world and if we're going to name sites that have in depth coverage of the matter then there are likely to be other technology and media discussion sites with a greater claim to be the one(s) named.
 * We have indeed "lost a link to an explanation of what an administrator on MediaWiki actually is". It's been replaced by a brief in-article explanation because the word "administrator" will usually be assumed to mean "person in charge" or "person responsible" by a lay-reader of the news. A link is probably insufficient to prevent many users making this error.
 * Non-departmental public body is still linked exactly as before, but at the point where the NPG and Commons are both described.
 * FT2 (Talk 16:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not true, I'm afraid. Both George William Herbert's and Larry Pieniazek's names were removed, and sentences were changed from active to passive voice to compensate.  We now have "Coetzee's 'administrator' privileges were removed by a user", for example.  That is, as I said, not good writing. That reason for removing Wikipedia Review doesn't hold water, nor change the fact that several of the public policy discussions reported in the story took place there.  That other places also might have discussed the issue doesn't change the fact that what was actually reported on, and observed in original reporting, was discussions at Wikipedia Review. You're right about the non-departmental public body link.  I take that back. But conversely, I point to discussions on this very talk page where people are arguing that the text as you revised it implies that Bridgeman would hold in the U.K..  As I said, this is something that I originally tried quite hard to avoid implying.  I was quite careful not to make any such implication, not least because doing so would be rendering the article non-neutral.  I'm not the only one voicing the concern that that is exactly what you've done. You've also not addressed the issue of your mis-representing the NPG.  The original text had "The complaint by the NPG that its copyright is being violated is a long-standing one, that it has maintained for some years.".  There was no implication with that wording that it was solely Wikipedia that it made its complaints against.  M. Crowell, after all, says otherwise, and I'm pretty sure that xe isn't alone.  I'm pretty sure that the NPG would state, if asked, that it has been complaining to more people than just those at the Commons and Wikipedia.  (Indeed, I found one site when researching the article that appeared to have been subject to a takedown request for all NPG images.)  The text that is there now says "While the gallery has complained to the Wikimedia Foundation for a number of years.".  That statement might not be actually true.  So this is not merely a misrepresentation, but possibly an outright falsehood, to boot.  We know that the NPG has repeated its complaint for many years.  But we in fact do not know that its complaint was sent to the Wikipedia Foundation.  That is a fact that we have not checked as reporters. Uncle G (talk) 01:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Style issues
Hey guys,

I noticed there are numerous style issues in this article:

 * 1) U.K. vs. UK. This unresolved discussion should at least be consistent.
 * 2) No date parameter in some sources
 * 3) Sources not in reverse chronological order.

There are smaller issues, but those are the major ones I saw. Having taken a look at the history, I find no fault of 's peer review, as significant changes have occurred since then. I'll try to help out, but I can't guarantee anything. Calebrw (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was "U.K." and "U.S." consistently originally. And some of the sources don't have dates because they don't have dates.  There's simply no date on McIlwaine's article, for example. Having sources in reverse chronological order is not a style requirement, by the way.  There is no such requirement in the style guide.  The ones that I added, I added in simple order of use (although we did later factor the background sources out into a separate section, to make the review process simpler).  Uncle G (talk) 15:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See this WN:ARCHIVE, which is the basis for the chronological order. Calebrw (talk) 15:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I've pointed out before, that's not the style guide, and it doesn't have a good rationale. Uncle G (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps these concerns should be best addressed at the WN:WC. Calebrw (talk) 16:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- See this discussion. Calebrw (talk) 16:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There are probably other details in the archive conventions that could/should be ported to the style guide. It isn't always easy to keep these overlapping documents in synch.
 * The 'rationale' behind sorting newest-> oldest is to impose an order on sourcing that is consistent, and to order such that historical documents versus latest reports are appropriately prioritised in the sources. A side-effect is that people tend to add post-publication sources out of order, so having them stand out is a beneficial feature where many are not actually used as sources.
 * For something as complex as this, the first thing was taking a decision that in some way the sources needed divided up. I agree with 's judgement that external links wasn't wholly appropriate - the solution of having a sources sub-section on the background information seemed a good one. I will say I don't like seeing source templates used without a date; where there isn't one I'd say don't use that template. I always push for |date= to be fully qualified Month Dayno, Year so that if the need arises the date information can later be processed. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

How much money is involved?
How much money is actually obtained through the museum through the sale of such images? Their digitization program is obviously work, and they should get paid, but we ought to push for direct UNESCO funding to museums that provide high quality digital photographs of world-class artwork to the global public domain. Wnt (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please note that this is the talk page for discussing the writing of the article. If you wish to comment on the issues that the story involves, please use the comments page.  From a writing of the article perspective, I did consider putting some facts and figures about revenues into the story.  They had come up in the various discussions over the weekend.  But there was some disagreement amongst the sets of figures, the discussion of revenue being a very minor part of those discussions that people didn't explore to a large extent, and I didn't find any readily usable quotations from identifiable people in those discussions that would help exemplify the issue to the reader.  Uncle G (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Miscellaneous comments
I have not yet read the talk, but this article comes across to someone totally unfamiliar with the processes of the wiki-editing dynamic as biased in favor of the Wikimedia Commons.

I would suggest a much more "news"-like description of the case, and leave the legal speculation to the discussion boards. This reads like a harried defense of the Commons' right to post images. While I would side with Wikimedia on almost any issue, I think it damages Wikinews' reputation as a legitimate source of reporting to have such an overwrought explanation of the case.

EDIT (7-16-09): I am especially concerned with two issues. First, the fact that this has been Wikinews' front page breaking news story for two days. This appears to outsiders as a very self-interested bias for a news outlet, when there are so many other large news stories occuring in the world. Second, in a move that would appear to be attempting to accurately represent BOTH sides of the story, the statement from NPG is introduced, but is immediately refuted with "In fact, ..." making it sound like Wikinews is simply debating with NPG, instead of delivering an impartial account of the facts.

A news agency's goal is not to fight these fights--that's a job for the discussion boards and the forums. I am worried that the front page and the story itself will appear juvenile or undeveloped (which, as a news source, Wikinews is) to readers because of its attempt to present a defense for Wikimedia Commons.

198.178.132.251 (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC) Editor, The Argus, Illinois Wesleyan University

Update on representation
Hi all, just wanted to provide an important update on this story. As noted at Commons:User:Dcoetzee/NPG_legal_threat, I have secured representation for my legal conflict with the National Portrait Gallery. I will be represented pro bono by Fred von Lohmann, a senior intellectual property attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Dcoetzee ( talk ) 20:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads-up on that, I've now swapped emails with Fred. From his perspective Wikinews is looking in the right places and asking the right questions... He just can't give answers on all of them right now. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Some misleading implications.
Hi all.

I've been trying to get my head around the status of Bridgeman v. Corel (for what must be the ten thousandth time), so I read through this article, and I'm a little worried the "legal issues" section here goes off track towards the end. We drift happily through past UK cases, nice solid legal precedents, then discuss Bridgeman, but it doesn't seem desperately clear to the reader that this was an American case and not a British one. We talk of it being "heard ... applying UK law", and conclude that "The Bridgeman case concluded that whether under UK or US law, such reproductions of copyright-expired material were not capable of being copyrighted".

This, to me, reads as though we're claiming Bridgeman to be binding in the UK - it's the definite "concluded that ... were not". Perhaps this ought to be reworded? Strictly speaking, the court ruled on one and had an opinion about the other, but I'm not sure how we can put that clearly.

It certainly seems best to ensure we avoid giving the unintentional impression that Bridgeman v. Corel has the force of decided law in London, and as it now stands the article can leave a casual reader somewhat confused. Thoughts? Shimgray (talk) 10:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say it is now too late to do such a significant rework. This being confusing to a casual reader should be no surprise - I find it confusing and I've read most of the sources. I have email from the EFF lawyer representing Derrick pro-bono and (as you'd probably expect) he is confident Bridgeman would be considered if brought before a UK court on such a copyright dispute. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have similar concerns. See  above.  Avoiding bias and the implication that Bridgeman applied in the U.K. was one thing that I was very conscious of when I wrote the original, and I was careful not to state any legal conclusions beyond what are already in law textbooks.  See also  above.  There are some suggestions in those sections. Uncle G (talk) 01:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Grammatical fail
"In particular, Zoomify's website comments that while "many customers — famous museums for example" use Zoomify, in their experience a "general consensus" seems to exist that most museums are concerned to make the images in their galleries accessible to the public, rather than prevent the public from accessing them or making copies; they observe that a desire to prevent high resolution images being distributed would also imply prohibiting the sale of any posters or production of high quality printed material that could be scanned and placed online."

"concerned to make" should be "concerned with making", and "prevent" should be "preventing". The sentence doesn't currently parse. Thumperward (talk) 12:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC) editprotected

 * because I agree w/Thumperward. -Elvey
 * [[Image:Yes_check.svg|16px]] Done — Gopher65talk 06:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (Also, I wanted to note that this legal advice given to Coetzee has info the article could use, but working it in would take time.) Elvey (talk) 18:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, while articles can have minor grammatical and spelling errors corrected after they are archived, archive policy prevents adding or removing content from the articles in question. However, you could chose to write a new article and include additional information that has recently come to light (within 3 days of the article being written, usually). Gopher65talk 06:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Category request
editprotected I think this would belong to Category:Art and Category:Galleries as well. —Elekhh (talk) 00:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 12:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

ISBN magic link
editprotected This page uses an ISBN magic link, a feature which is likely to be replaced sometime soon per the RFC on Mediawiki. In the Background material subsection, please enclose the word ISBN, and the number immediately after it, inside the ISBN template e.g., which should have no outward effect but ensures that the link to Special:BookSources is maintained when the magic link is deprecated. Cheers. Green Giant (talk) 17:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)


text:
User talk:69.140.8.245

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! – Juliancolton  | Talk 19:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how an article should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:69.140.8.245


text:
Daisy Dick wins Barbury International Horse Trials

July 12, 2009

Daisy Dick has won the Barbury Castle International CCI 3* horse trials on Spring Along, her 16-year old veteran horse.

Andrew Nicholson came second on Neroe, with Sam Watson on Bushman came third. Badminton Horse Trials winner Oli Townend disappointed fans, gathering 19 penalties in show jumping on Flint Curtis.

Daisy Dick said "I was happy with my dressage as I knew he can do a good test, I'm just glad he decided to do it here! I'm annoyed with my time penalty but I know exactly where I lost the time - just one too many pulls but I did feel really fast - he was like a rocket! It was a big build up through the day in the horse boxes and its always a hell of a buzz here at Barbury so wouldn't want to be on any other horse. He really deserves the win today, it's about time as we've been second so many times. He's feeling so well - more like an eight-year-old and he was brilliant today."


text:
Comments:Firefighter killed while tackling pub blaze in Edinburgh, Scotland

Could someone tell me what is the significance of this news peice? No disrespect to the deceased but surely the death of a single fireman, in a fire, isn't all that important and/or interesting. - mm4k
 * At least it's more significant than "New information on Michael Jackson's death" or other celebrity crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.177.24 (talk) 11:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


text:
User talk:BorderPatrol10

  Tris   00:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:BorderPatrol10


text:
Flash flooding kills fourteen hikers near Chongqing, China

July 13, 2009

14 people have died after heavy rain and flash flooding hit a gorge near the south western city of Chongqing, China. It is reported that a group of hikers entered a forbidden area of the Tanzhangxia Gorge along with a guide. 16 members of the group of 35 were rescued but 14 died and 5 are still missing.

The flooding was caused by a heavy rainstorm on Saturday which caused a wall of water to trigger down the gorge. One survivor said the water was “several meters high”. Deng Ke survived by grapping a bamboo shoot.

Around 400 rescue workers are helping the rescue effort and looking for any possible survivors. Several homes and streets were flooded during the rainstorm despite the effort of the villagers who built temporary flood guards.

Rescue efforts are ongoing.


text:
User talk:Shymian

– Juliancolton  | Talk 01:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Shymian


text:
Talk:Flash flooding kills fourteen hikers near Chongqing, China

Review?
It got published but there is no review just wanted to point out. --72.73.120.144 (talk) 07:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out - it wasn't sighted so can be un-published as never on main page or in Google News. --Brian McNeil / talk 07:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Mark Webber wins 2009 German Formula One Grand Prix

Review
--Brian McNeil / talk 07:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Requesting a re-review of 848577 that incorporated some minor corrections and a slight title change. --Yuriybrisk (talk) 18:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


text:
User talk:BocsiTdelp

Welcome
  Tris   09:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:BocsiTdelp


text:
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il 'has cancer'

July 13, 2009

The leader of North Korea, Kim Jong-il, is reported to have pancreatic cancer according to YTN, a South Korean news channel. The unconfirmed reports state that Kim was diagnosed last year, at about the same time of a reported stroke.

YTN broke the news using unidentified sources within South Korea and China. However, the National Intelligence Service of South Korea could not confirm the illness, while a South Korean Ministry of Unification spokesperson also indicated he had no knowledge of the reported illness.

Kim made a rare public appearance on July 8 of this year to mark the 15th anniversary of his father’s death. According to reports, Kim was looking “gaunt” and walking with a limp. 67-year-old Kim has suffered from several severe health problems in the past few years and speculation about his health has come under doubt several times.

It is reported that Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il’s youngest son, is the chosen heir to North Korean leadership, but North Korea has yet to confirm this.

Kim Jong-il took over power in 1994 after his father’s death. He took over the National Defence Commission of North Korea and as leader of the Workers' Party of Korea but not the presidency. Kim's father, Kim Il-sung, was subsequently named Eternal President of the Republic.

Daniel Pinkston, a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group said that the illness would explain the "rapidness of some of [North Korea's] actions over the past eight months or so, with the attempted satellite launch, nuclear test and missile tests." Pinkston feels the recent actions are for appearances of normalcy and to shore up internal support for a transition of power to Kim Jong-un. "Now they are going through things as if they have a plan or schedule," added Pinkston.

Pancreatic cancer is often a life-threatening disease, with the National Cancer Institute estimating a five-year survival rate of 5.5%.


text:
User:Zimmy

Test DynamicpageList

 category = Hungary order    = descending addfirstcategorydate = true count = 20

title: User:Zimmy


text:
Javier Velásquez named as Peru’s new Prime Minister

July 14, 2009

Javier Velásquez, head of Peru’s legislature has been named as Prime Minister by President Alan Garcia. Velásquez is from the President's party, APRA, and replaces Yehude Simon as Prime Minister after Simon resigned on July 10. Simon resigned due to a crisis over indigenous land rights which caused 34 deaths, the worst violence Peru has seen in 20 years. Along with Velásquez’s new role President Garcia has also reshuffled the cabinet and named seven new ministers. Former police chief Octavio Salazar has been named as interior minister.

Opposition Congressman Fredy Otarola has criticized Velásquez, claiming “Velásquez is more of the same” and that he does not "represent change."

Garcia, whose presidency runs out in 2011, has faced several tough years. According to the Agence France-Presse, Peru has gone from a economic strength to a weakness and Garcia also has record disapproval figures, with 67 percent of those polled having a negative opinion of him.


text:
User talk:John AAA

Your recent edits
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikinews pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 12:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:John AAA


text:
User talk:Johnny Hund

Welcome
--Brian McNeil / talk 13:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Do not self-publish
Wikinews requires that all articles be independently reviewed prior to publication. This is enforced with Flagged Revisions and self-publication is likely to see an article lost and later deleted. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Johnny Hund


text:
Comments:Mark Webber wins German Formula 1 Grand Prix

you fucking beauty.
 * You must be Australian then. :D --Brian McNeil / talk 14:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


text: Talk:North Korean leader Kim Jong-il 'has cancer'


text:
Comments:North Korean leader Kim Jong-il 'has cancer'

maybe they thought he would be dead by now and wanted to make sure he went out with a blast .. liek, "he died to complete this nuke and left it to us .. fear" --80.167.173.75 (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

If he did all of a sudden die then i think he is trying to do what his father did not do. When his father died North Korea was in economic and argriculturle difficulty and he had not done what he set out to do. Maybe Jong-il is just doing his final wish like a sort of a "bucket list". Chandlerjoeyross (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

always funny when someone who sells himself like God dies a slow and painful death, makes me smile.--66.229.17.49 (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Let the God will bless the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.247.231.3 (talk) 09:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Good, I hate that son of a bitch kim jong il, i hope he dies, and i hope he burns in hell, and i hope the north korean government is destroyed and korea is reunited as one, with all traces of communism gone--125.236.131.6 (talk) 07:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Randy Pauch
Isn't this what the "Last Lecture" guy died from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.177.24 (talk) 11:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I hope he suffers
Glad to hear it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.241.100.29 (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Please don't die dear leader please don't Juche sasang manse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.237.165.9 (talk) 03:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


text:
Talk:U.K. National Portrait Gallery threatens U.S. citizen with legal action over Wikimedia images/NPG statement

"NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY PRESS OFFICE PREPARED STATEMENTS July 2009

Position Statement: the National Portrait Gallery images and Wikipedia Internet Encyclopaedia

The National Portrait Gallery is very strongly committed to giving access to its Collection. In the past five years the Gallery has spent around £1 million digitising its Collection to make it widely available for study and enjoyment. We have so far made available on our website more than 60,000 digital images, which have attracted millions of users, and we believe this extensive programme is of great public benefit.

The Gallery supports Wikipedia in its aim of making knowledge widely available and we would be happy for the site to use our low-resolution images, sufficient for most forms of public access, subject to safeguards. However, in March 2009 over 3000 high-resolution files were appropriated from the National Portrait Gallery website and published on Wikipedia without permission.

The Gallery is very concerned that potential loss of licensing income from the high-resolution files threatens its ability to reinvest in its digitisation programme and so make further images available. It is one of the Gallery’s primary purposes to make as much of the Collection available as possible for the public to view.

Digitisation involves huge costs including research, cataloguing, conservation and highly-skilled photography. Images then need to be made available on the Gallery website as part of a structured and authoritative database.

To date, Wikipedia has not responded to our requests to discuss the issue and so the National Portrait Gallery has been obliged to issue a lawyer’s letter. The Gallery remains willing to enter into a dialogue with Wikipedia.

National Portrait Gallery, London"


text: Talk:Daisy Dick wins Barbury International Horse Trials


text:
Former Lebanese Prime Minister Amin al-Hafez dies at age 83

July 13, 2009

, the former of Lebanon, has died at the age of 83. Al-Hafez was sworn in as Prime Minister on April 25, 1973 by President. Al-Hafez was forced to resign after less than two months on June 21.

The al-Hafez faced a hard time as Prime Minister as opposing religious leaders and fellow Sunnis refused to recognise him as Prime Minister. Two years after he resigned, Lebanon, which was already in conflict with Palestinian troops, entered a 15-year civil war. He continued to serve as a member of parliament for Tripoli until 1996.

A three-day mourning has been declared by Prime Minister Fouad Siniora. The flags at the government institutions will be flown at half mast during this period. Al-Hafez’s body will be buried in Tripoli.


text:
Talk:Javier Velásquez named as Peru’s new Prime Minister

Photo
There is no avalible photo for this article. The original one was deleted for copyright. The Peru side banner should suit the article fine. Chandlerjoeyross (talk) 19:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


text: User:Seth Whales

title: User:Seth Whales


text: Talk:Former Lebanese Prime Minister Amin al-Hafez dies at age 83


text:
User:Dmports

To leave Dmports a message, go to the collaboration article.

It's 20 degrees where I am.

title: User:Dmports


text:
User talk:Dmports

Leave a message by clicking the "add comment" tab.

P.S. Don't forget to put 4 ~'s when your done. I might not be online at sometimes but oh well...

P.P.S. Below is an example. Thank you!

Post Regards, Dmports (talk) 7:57 PM, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Example
Message Text --Dmports (talk) 8:10 PM, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Welcome
--Brian McNeil / talk 23:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dmports


text:
Tropical Storm Carlos re-strengthens over the Pacific

July 14, 2009

After a period of weakening on Sunday, Tropical Storm Carlos, formerly a hurricane, has re-strengthened today over the open waters of the Pacific.

Carlos formed on July 10, and intensified to attain hurricane status on July 11. However, the storm's structure became disorganized over the next day, leading the National Hurricane Center (NHC) to downgrade Carlos to a tropical storm.

As of 2100 UTC on Monday, the storm had maximum sustained winds of 65 miles per hour with gusts to around 75 mph. Minimum atmospheric pressure associated with the storm was near 994 millibars. The system was centered approximately 1420 miles to the southwest of Baja California.

Carlos is moving to the west-southwest at about 12 mph as it tracks farther out to sea. NHC forecasters currently expect the cyclone to remain at roughly the same intensity for the next few days before beginning to deteriorate.


text:
User:Juliancolton/sysopdectector.js

//Taken from w:User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js /* Sysop decrier/detector (rights group displayer), version [0.2.0a] Originally from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js

Notes:
 * Fixed this up to use the new API fun stuffs.
 * Shows all groups now
 * nstab-user isn't available in all skins, all skins have at least one h1 or h2 I believe.
 * heading given class="detected-userrights-heading" and text in span class="detected-userrights"

Options: var showUserGroupSettings = { 'IP':true, 'unregistered':true, 'registered':true, 'groups': true, 'groupless': true, 'editcount':true, 'regdate':true, 'blocked':true };
 * Now supports an option system.
 * By setting a datalet true it shows in the header instead of the title.
 * Note, all are assumed false if omitted. All but 'groups' are assumed false if undefined.

if((wgNamespaceNumber == 2 || wgNamespaceNumber == 3) && wgTitle.indexOf('/') == -1 && (wgAction != 'edit' || wgAction != 'submit')) addOnloadHook(showUserGroups) function showUserGroups { var url = mw.config.get('wgServer') + mw.config.get('wgScriptPath') + '/api.php?action=query&format=json&callback=showUserGroupsCB&maxage=3600&smaxage=3600&usprop=blockinfo|groups|editcount|registration&list=users&ususers=' + encodeURIComponent(wgTitle); mw.loader.load(url); }

function showUserGroupsCB(obj) { var show = window.showUserGroupSettings || false; if(!obj['query'] || !obj['query']['users']) return var user = obj['query']['users']; if(user.length == 0) return user = user[0]; var someHeading = document.getElementsByTagName('h1')[0] || document.getElementsByTagName('h2')[0] if(!someHeading) return

var span = document.createElement('span'); var title = 'User:' + user['name'] + ' '; var text = ' ';

if(user['invalid'] == '') { if(show && show.IP) text += '[IP] ' else title += '[invalid or IP username] ' } else if(user['missing'] == '') { if(show && show.unregistered) text += '[doesn\'t exist] ' else title += '[not a registered name] ' } else { if(show && show.registered) text += '[exists] ' else title += '[username registered] ' if(user['groups']) { if(show && show.groups || !show) text += '[user,' + user['groups'] + '] ' else title += '[user,' + user['groups'] + '] ' } else { if(show && show.groupless) text += '[user] ' else title += '[user] ' }   if(user['editcount']) { if(show && show.editcount) text += '[' + user['editcount'] + ' edits] ' else title += '[' + user['editcount'] + ' edits] ' }   if(user['registration']) { if(show && show.regdate) text += '[created: ' + user['registration'].split('T')[0] + '] ' else title += '[created: ' + user['registration'] + '] ' }   if(user['blockedby']) { if(show && show.blocked) text += '[blocked] ' else text += '[currently blocked] ' } }

span.setAttribute('class','detected-userrights'); span.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text)); someHeading.appendChild(span); someHeading.setAttribute('title',title); someHeading.className += ' detected-userrights-heading'; }

title: User:Juliancolton/sysopdectector.js


text:
User talk:211.30.21.249

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! – Juliancolton  | Talk 05:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how an article should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:211.30.21.249


text:
User:VanishedUser sdu9asdsopa/vector.js

//Taken from w:User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js /* Sysop decrier/detector (rights group displayer), version [0.2.0a] Originally from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Splarka/sysopdectector.js

Notes:
 * Fixed this up to use the new API fun stuffs.
 * Shows all groups now
 * nstab-user isn't available in all skins, all skins have at least one h1 or h2 I believe.
 * heading given class="detected-userrights-heading" and text in span class="detected-userrights"

Options: var showUserGroupSettings = { 'IP':true, 'unregistered':true, 'registered':true, 'groups': true, 'groupless': true, 'editcount':true, 'regdate':true, 'blocked':true };
 * Now supports an option system.
 * By setting a datalet true it shows in the header instead of the title.
 * Note, all are assumed false if omitted. All but 'groups' are assumed false if undefined.

if((wgNamespaceNumber == 2 || wgNamespaceNumber == 3) && wgTitle.indexOf('/') == -1 && (wgAction != 'edit' || wgAction != 'submit')) addOnloadHook(showUserGroups) function showUserGroups { var url = mw.config.get('wgServer') + mw.config.get('wgScriptPath') + '/api.php?action=query&format=json&callback=showUserGroupsCB&maxage=3600&smaxage=3600&usprop=blockinfo|groups|editcount|registration&list=users&ususers=' + encodeURIComponent(wgTitle); mw.loader.load(url); }

function showUserGroupsCB(obj) { var show = window.showUserGroupSettings || false; if(!obj['query'] || !obj['query']['users']) return var user = obj['query']['users']; if(user.length == 0) return user = user[0]; var someHeading = document.getElementsByTagName('h1')[0] || document.getElementsByTagName('h2')[0] if(!someHeading) return

var span = document.createElement('span'); var title = 'User:' + user['name'] + ' '; var text = ' ';

if(user['invalid'] == '') { if(show && show.IP) text += '[IP] ' else title += '[invalid or IP username] ' } else if(user['missing'] == '') { if(show && show.unregistered) text += '[doesn\'t exist] ' else title += '[not a registered name] ' } else { if(show && show.registered) text += '[exists] ' else title += '[username registered] ' if(user['groups']) { if(show && show.groups || !show) text += '[user,' + user['groups'] + '] ' else title += '[user,' + user['groups'] + '] ' } else { if(show && show.groupless) text += '[user] ' else title += '[user] ' }   if(user['editcount']) { if(show && show.editcount) text += '[' + user['editcount'] + ' edits] ' else title += '[' + user['editcount'] + ' edits] ' }   if(user['registration']) { if(show && show.regdate) text += '[created: ' + user['registration'].split('T')[0] + '] ' else title += '[created: ' + user['registration'] + '] ' }   if(user['blockedby']) { if(show && show.blocked) text += '[blocked] ' else text += '[currently blocked] ' } }

span.setAttribute('class','detected-userrights'); span.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text)); someHeading.appendChild(span); someHeading.setAttribute('title',title); someHeading.className += ' detected-userrights-heading'; }

title: User:VanishedUser sdu9asdsopa/vector.js


text:
Two French journalists kidnapped by Somali gunmen

July 14, 2009

Two foreign journalists have reportedly been kidnapped from their hotel by unidentified gunmen in Mogadishu, Somalia.

The abduction took place this morning, when men wearing Somalian police uniform arrived at the Sahafi Hotel, which is in an area of the city controlled by pro-government forces.

The hotel manager said "Several gunmen entered the Sahafi Hotel, pointed guns at the guards and went into the hotel rooms where they took away the two French nationals. The two males told me they were journalists."


text:
Microsoft announces web version of Office

July 14, 2009

Microsoft has announced they will launch web versions of their popular Office software in 2010. It will be included in all versions of Office 2010 when it ships next year. All Windows Live customers will also reportedly have access. Testers will be given access at the end of this year. The service will go into direct competition with Google Docs, launched three years ago. Last week Google announced they were going to launch a new operating system, called Google Chrome OS. Like Google Docs, Microsoft Office will be compatible with Firefox, Safari, Google Chrome and Internet Explorer.

Microsoft's group product manager for Office stated, "We believe the web has a lot to offer in terms of connectivity. We have over a half a billion customers world-wide and what we hear from them is that they really want the power of the web without compromise. They want collaboration without compromise.  And what they tell us today is that going to the web often means they sacrifice fidelity, functionality and the quality of the content they care about. We knew that if and when we were ever going to bring applications into a web environment, we needed to do the hard work first because we hold such a high bar."

Microsoft's business software division, which includes Office, made USD 9.3 billion in profit during the first three-quarters of its 2009 fiscal year. Analysts from The Wall Street Journal have predicted that the move "could put at risk as much as $4 billion (£2.46 billion) in revenue."


text: Talk:Tropical Storm Carlos re-strengthens over the Pacific


text:
British conductor Edward Downes and wife die in double assisted suicide

July 14, 2009

British conductor Sir Edward Downes and his wife Joan took their lives at a Swiss assisted suicide clinic on Friday, July 10, 2009, according to a statement from their family. Lady Downes, 74, was afflicted with terminal cancer, and Sir Edward, 85, was nearly blind with increasing hearing difficulties. These disabilities had forced him to give up conducting. Having no religious beliefs, the couple decided against holding a funeral.

The statement read, "After 54 happy years together, they decided to end their own lives rather than continue to struggle with serious health problems. They died peacefully, and under circumstances of their own choosing, with the help of the Swiss organisation, Dignitas, in Zurich."

Many who knew the couple as friends said that Sir Edward was not terminally ill, but wanted to die with his wife, who he had been with for more than 50 years.

Sir Edward Downes's children, in an interview with The London Evening Standard, said they escorted their parents to Zurich, and on that Friday, they watched in tears as their parents consumed "a small quantity of clear liquid," and then proceeded to lie down together, holding hands.

"Within a couple of minutes they were asleep, and died within 10 minutes," said their 41 year old son, Caractacus Downes.

Sir Edward was well respected in the operatic and orchestral worlds and was particularly noted for his performances of British and Russian music and of Verdi, conducting 25 of the composer's 28 operas. He had a long association with the Royal Opera House, where he conducted for more than 50 seasons in succession. This did not stop him from refusing to conduct a series of performances of Verdi's Nabucco there as he was "out of sympathy" with the adventurous production. His approach to conducting was similarly conservative. He wrote "The duty of a conductor should be to present... a faithful and accurate account of the composer's music as he wrote it, disregarding any subsequent 'interpretations', 'meanings', or political agendas that may have been attached to it by others."

It was on Friday, 28 September, 1973, that Sir Edward conducted the opening public performance at the Sydney Opera House, a staging of Prokofiev's War and Peace by Opera Australia, of which he was musical director. Downes also served as chief conductor of the Netherlands Radio Orchestra and principal conductor of the BBC Philharmonic.

The family reported that Lady Downes "started her career as a ballet dancer and subsequently worked as a choreographer and TV producer, before dedicating the last years of her life to working as our father's personal assistant."

The Metropolitan Police have announced that Greenwich CID are investigating the circumstances of the couple's deaths. Assisting a suicide is illegal in the United Kingdom.

Over 100 people who wished to die have made the journey from Britain to Switzerland to take advantage of the clinical services that Dignitas offers. British police have investigated many of the resulting deaths, but no family member has yet been prosecuted for helping relatives negotiate with Dignitas and travel to Switzerland. Debbie Purdy, a woman with multiple sclerosis, attempted last year to obtain a ruling from the English High Court that family members would not be prosecuted for helping someone use the service, and in particular that her husband would not be charged should she decide to use Dignitas in future. The court refused as it believed that such clarification is the responsibility of parliament and not the judiciary.

Last week the House of Lords rejected a proposal by former Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer to allow people to help someone with a terminal illness travel to a country where assisted suicide is legal.


text:
Comments:Brazil Political crisis: Minister José Dirceu leaves the government

Dirceu is not a victim of a serious political crisis in Brazil. Everything that has been said is true, unfortunately. Even worse is the President Lula situation, he knows every thing and try to cover everything up because he is corrupt himself. Just look for his son last scandal. I am Brazilian and what make all people believe that Lula is a very good "Leader" is the charisma that he has, but he is more alike Chaves than the rest of World will ever know. A leader that suggests for the poor population that no one needs to study in order to achieve success, it not a person that has to be take seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.196.41.135 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


text:
User:Vulgar Latina

Hello!

title: User:Vulgar Latina


text: Talk:Two French journalists kidnapped by Somali gunmen


text:
User talk:Dronkle

– Juliancolton  | Talk 14:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dronkle


text:
User:Dronkle

I'm mainly based at the English Wikipedia where I have made several thousand edits. The total contributions I have made to wikinews, meta, commons and the French and German wikis are barely into double figures.

For more info about me, see w:user:Peter cohen

title: User:Dronkle


text:
'Monster' fish killed in Swiss lake after biting swimmers

July 14, 2009

A 70 centimeter (27.6 in) zander on Lake Maggiore, Switzerland was killed by police divers after it attacked several swimmers over the weekend. The fish weighed eight kilograms, or 17.5 pounds. The fish bit six bathers, two of whom required emergency medical treatment for bite wounds up to 10 centimeters (3.9 in) long. Fish warden Fabio Croci said, "It is quite unusual for Zanders to bite humans". It is suspected the fish's aggression could have been a result of a hormonal imbalance.

After attempts to capture the Zander with a net failed, police divers resorted to harpooning it. Meat from the fish was later served to tourists around the lake.


text:
US wildfire reaches Interstate 5 near Los Angeles

July 14, 2009 A California wildfire has reached Interstate 5, just 40 miles northwest of downtown Los Angeles.

The fire has burned 400 acres of grassland in the Angeles National Forest, and continues to blaze in the Pyramid Lake area.

According to the forest spokeswoman Dee Dechert, the fire is 50 percent contained, but it has damaged Southern California Edison power lines, causing traffic jams. The two right northbound lanes on Interstate 5 had to be shut down, backing up traffic for several miles; they were still closed Tuesday morning. However, no homes or other structures are at risk.

As of 7 pm local time on Tuesday, 500 people, mostly from Los Angeles County Fire Department, were working to contain the fire in heat that exceeded. According to authorities, four helicopters and six air tankers were also on the scene to control the flames, which are being pushed northeast by a per hour wind.

The wildfire began around noon on Monday, just northwest of Castaic near the Golden State Freeway. The cause is not currently known, but it is expected to be 100 percent contained by 6 pm on Tuesday.

The only injury reported so far occurred when a firefighter was stung by a bee.


text:
Talk:US wildfire reaches Interstate 5 near Los Angeles

Please keep the international audience in mind when picking an article title. --SVTCobra 01:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


text: Talk:'Monster' fish killed in Swiss lake after biting swimmers


text:
User talk:Ian Spackman

– Juliancolton  | Talk 20:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ian Spackman


text: Talk:British conductor Edward Downes and wife die in double assisted suicide


text: File:NPG logo.gif

title: File:NPG logo.gif


text: File:Digitalbritain.gif

title: File:Digitalbritain.gif


text:
File talk:NPG logo.gif

Isn't this Pd-ineligible? – Juliancolton  | Talk 23:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's gotta sting, considering where the image is to be used. --Brian McNeil / talk 23:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be Pd-ineligible but it is definitely fair-use. If you want to upload at Commons, you have pass the Pd-ineligible bar. I didn't want to aim that high. --SVTCobra 23:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

title: File talk:NPG logo.gif


text:
Talk:Microsoft announces web version of Office

SVG file
editprotected Please update Microsoft Office 2007 text logo.png to Microsoft Office 2007 text logo.svg - the contrast is better and the file format is superior. Regards, Jon Kolbert (talk) 23:32, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ by Pi zero back in October. --SVTCobra 20:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


text:
Comments:British conductor Edward Downes and wife die in double assisted suicide

Good for them. I'm glad people are -- at least, in some circumstances and places -- given the choice of terminating their lives peacefully, rather than facing the inevitable, and possibly burdening others with medical costs and care. I think doing this shows a lot of dignity on their behalf, and sets a precedent for other people to consider that they do have other options besides indefinite hospitalization. 72.150.237.66 (talk) 23:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.211.177.24 (talk) 11:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Leave their private choices alone, and be grateful for the joy they brought to this world. Everyone has the right to die with dignity.

this should be legalised
i think this proceedurer should be legalised because a lot people suffer from different ailments and are unable to get the rest they need. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tenderlivity (talk • contribs) 19:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Better watch out, ghosts of Edward and Joan Downes. The police are investigating you. -MTops —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.13.88 (talk) 01:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is the death of the couple referred to as an "assisted suicide"? I was aware that there was a special term for this kind of death -"euthanasia". Calling the Downes' decision to end their live by their own will as a result of debilitating injury a suicide is criminalizing their act of great courage and desparation.—Tigaernach (talk) 07:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Simple use of the word 'suicide' does no such thing. It was a suicide; a decision to take their own lives. It was assisted; some kind people were willing to help them through with it. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 17:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * To my mind "assisted suicide" is a more neutral term than "euthanasia" where the "eu-" comes from the Greek for "good". The Downes' supporters would say that they did have a good death. "Pro-life" (another loaded term) advocates would not say that it was a good death. The policy of Wikinews is that articles should not take sides in debates such as these.

 * On the other hand, it is true that Ted and Joan did commit suicide in that they each drank a drug knowing that it was a fatal poison in the quantities they took. It was assisted in that they were provided with the drug by people who knew why they would take it and who had the expertise to set the dose.

 * "Assisted suicide" is also narrower than "euthanasia" in that the latter term includes circumstances in which the dying person does not make the decision or does not carry out the killing act themselves.

 * And the criminalising of an act is done by the powers that be not and not by the description of it. The Suicide Act 1961 states that "A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or attempt by another to commit suicide shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years." The Downes did certainly aid and abet eachother's suicides. So in Britain, crimes were committed. That is why the CID have become involved. They are no doubt investigating how Caractacus and Boudicca were involved, though the Crown Prosecution Service will almost certainly decide that it is not in the public interest to prosecute them.

 * The same actions would be perfectly legal in Switzerland. And in Britain before 1961, the Downes would also have committed crimes in killing themselves. As I said, it's the powers that be that decide that actions are crimes. And, as the article implies, opinion is divided about whether the powers that be in Britain have it right.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Let's not quibble over the neutrality of semantics. 'Euthanasia' is a perfectly acceptable (and accurate) term. 70.153.122.40 (talk) 21:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

 * "Euthanasia" is a mercy killing. To make it equivalent to "assisted suicide" one would have to call it "voluntary euthanasia" --SVTCobra 21:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)