text:
Wikinews talk:Mirrors and forks

brujula.net
DPL's seem to lag significently. compare Politics and conflicts v.s. http://www.brujula.net/english/noticias/wiki/Politics_and_conflicts.html —Bawolff ☺☻ 23:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambiguous picture. They are pretty up-to-date at Economy and business. But some DPL's are missing altogether. --Deprifry|+T+ 23:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Strange. Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 00:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

As the site admin of code0range.net, I sincerely apologize for not fully complying with Wikinews' CC-BY license. I am disabling all RSS aggregation until I am able to comply with every license from each of the sites we aggregate. --Grohk 07:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. We welcome your mirroring as long as you comply with the CC-By. Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 23:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

RedBolivia.com
I guess they've stopped mirroring us. I have seen no new article since Jan 1. --Julián Ortega - My talk 23:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Not true. See Talk:Sai_Baba_upsets_Telangana_activists. IronFist 00:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Fack.org
Hey guys I updated some stuff on fack.org (my site), hope I did it all right! If you want any more licenses or anything linking I'll be happy to :-)
 * Looks fine (albeit rather tongue-in-cheek). Well done. :) Garrett 05:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The ESL Free Press
I don't think I'd call this a mirror, but this is the closest category I could find. The ESL Free Press has started condensing down seleted wikinews articles for their blog/news website. ESL stands for English as a Second Language. The blog is for ESL students in Canada.

I've now seen this website show up twice in my Google News Alerts for "Wikinews", with the most recent article being Business Owners Block Traffic, which is a very abbreviated version on Police disperse striking traders in New Delhi.

There is a back link to the original article, as well as a link to the appropriate Creative Commons license, so it looks like the website is compliant with proper redistribution licencing. GKunz 08:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Shavian wiki; Nettle
I have added these two mirrors. However, since I maintain both of them, I would rather someone else wrote them up more fully, since I wouldn't be unbiased. Please let me know if you have any questions, or you would like either of them done in a different way. Thank you! Marnanel (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

title: Wikinews talk:Mirrors and forks


text:
User talk:Dreamwalker~enwikinews

Things that concern me:

The U.S. government increasingly "defines" behavior with judicial and executive power in order to exercise control over individual entities. And largely, the legislative balance is unable to compensate for the damage.

Examples: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is labeled as a threat after our nation violates the sovreignty of Iraq. His country has significant oil reserves ... but no one cares about the lack of government in Somalia since the US interferance in the early 1990's.

Cindy Sheehan is arrested for protesting peacefully.

Juan Mata is arrested for protesting peacefully.

The democratically elected President of Haiti is kidnapped and forced into exile by the United States Government. Under fire, Aristead was "assisted" nto a helicopter by US and French forces. They called the action a rescue mission.

Offering political asylum to Chechnyan rebels who are terrorists in Russia.

Persons identified as an "enemy combatant" are held without cause or charge, for indefinite durations, in prisons that international inspectors are prohibited from knowing about.

Torture, white phosphorous, Sunni vs. Shiite, and the list goes on.

Justice Souter writes for a unanimous Supreme Court decision that uses the VCR argument to shut down peer-to-peer file transfers, essentially enabling the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) to maintain intellectual property rights. An antiquated notion held by only people in communities where they use the priviledge of their society to exploit other nations. In applying a double-standard, it's okay for Sony to manufacture VCRs that can be used for illegal purpose because of the need of the greater good ... but then no other company can produce a product likewise without violating intellectual property rights. I wonder how much of Justice Souters wealth is derived from the technological stranglehold this country has exerted in making products in third world countries?

I love my freedom. I love economic progress.

But if being an American means Roe v Wade sanctions the death of 46 million babies since 1973 ... then I think I'd like to re-organize the government. Murder is murder. Whether it is sanctioned by the state or not. Yet, I also know in my heart the safest society for my daughter includes the excution of rapists and murderers. Although my logic leans more towards the idea that removing them from the planet is necessary for their own protection; against further sins.

Do I have the answer, yes, democracy is the worst form of government ... except all the rest.

We are all guilty. Even myslef, as I climb into my gas guzzling monster 1985 Ford F-250. My love for the convenience and pleasure of the experience drive an insatiable appetite for destruction of our environment, governments, and society's basic infrastructures.

I wear Nike's and love going to the movies. I own a collectibles business that rely's solely on the existence of intellectual property rights.

The obvious opposition to logic deifes me. As I search this world for my happiness, I am reminded that so is everyone else.

Hi
Thats definitly some food for thought☻☺. Anyways welcome to wikinews

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Dreamwalker. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Dreamwalker~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:16, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Dreamwalker~enwikinews


text:
Tunisian Muslim says apologise to Baha'is

November 20, 2005

A Tunisian Muslim academic has called on Muslims to reconcile with Baha'is and followers of other religions. He has also called on involved Muslims to apologise to the Baha'is that have been humiliated and denigrated in Muslim coutries.

Dr Iqbal Al-Gharbi, a psychology lecturer at the Al-Zaytouna University in, said that many peoples across the world were asking for forgiveness for past wrongs, such as the Catholic Church, who asked for forgiveness for its treatment of people, and France which apologised for the complicity of the  regime. She said that, Muslims, by contrast, usually consider themselves to be the victims and usually innocent of any wrongs.

Al-Gharbi said Muslims should reconcile with Christian and Jewish minorities who lived in Muslim countries, and to Africans who suffered in the Arab slave trade. She said they should also reconcile with "small schools of Islamic thought" such as the, Baha'i, and.

Baha'is do not consider themselves to be a school of Islam but instead an independent world religion. They protest persecution in Iran (which has the largest Baha'i population of any Muslim-majority country) including execution, imprisonment, torture, deprivation of property and exclusion from education.

The  stated in its 2005 report that Baha'is are repressed in  and, and face execution, imprisonment and discrimination. Forum 18, the Norwegian human rights organisation has also reported discrimination against Baha'is in Muslim-dominated and.

The Government of Iran maintains that the Baha'i Faith is not a religion but an "espionage establishment", with links to the, British and American governments. Other Muslims consider Baha'is to be apostates — Muslims who have abandoned their religion — and this justifies discrimination.


text:
User talk:193.11.213.26

Welcome
193.11.213.26, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry|+T+ 00:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:193.11.213.26


text:
User talk:216.99.212.43

Welcome
216.99.212.43, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry|+T+ 00:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:216.99.212.43


text:
Wikinews talk:Arbitration Committee

 * /Archive 1

FYI: Heads up regarding Viriditas
FYI: diff.

Relevant links: Just wanted to give you a heads up here so Wikinews ArbCom can be aware of my actions in this matter. -- Cirt (talk) 19:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Admin_action_alerts
 * 2) Requests_for_CheckUser
 * w:User_talk:Cirt
 * 1) Admin_action_alerts

Meta RfC
There's a RFC ongoing on m:Meta about the scope of their m:Requests for comment on users, more specifically about starting a discussion there on a dispute from another wiki. Some of the participants in the meta-wiki RFC object to the lack of involvement of other wikis in that discussion . Participation from this project is invited. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

My opinion on this ArbCom
Is Wikinews's own ArbCom fair and justified? Is it necessary? Every year, no oppose votes have been allowed, and seems that ArbCom candidates votes for each other. Worst of all, no other people than the candidates themselves have voted in annual elections. I have wondered the necessity and process of the ArbCom and its elections. Do multiple issues about this ArbCom exist? If so, can they be fixed? If ArbCom can't be shut down, then what else to do about it? --George Ho (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wikinews's own ArbCom fair and justified. It is also necessary.  ArbCom hearing was held earlier this year in an escalated situation.  Some elections are support-only, (including your own democracy)  Support-only election ensures those users who the community thinks are the most competent in handling the cases is voted higher.  It also avoids spewing bad blood.  Users standing in the elections are not barred from voting.  They can't vote for themselves, but they are free to vote for others.  We can't foce other people to come and vote.  There is a pandemic going on.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to come and cast their votes while their livelihood is probably at stake.  Look at 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016.  Eligible voters, who were not running in the election have voted too.  Please consider fact-checking to back up your claims, George Ho.  I am afraid you haven't established what is about the ArbCom that bugs you?  We don't dismiss our courts if there aren't any cases. •–•  00:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, this ArbCom runs different from enwiki's ArbCom. But that's not what was mainly bugging me. I was discussing the election process, not the way ArbCom decides on cases. There aren't enough various admins to nominate themselves as Arbs. Reading the 2016 elections, if the turnout rate is high enough, why were amount of votes very small? Or I shall say that I saw two or three votes on every nomination, including votes by the same person. Speaking of the same person, that same person also nominated the admins whom that person voted for. If those votes were fair, then how does small amount of votes be sufficient enough to make one an Arb? As for other elections, seems that candidates (even when they can't vote for themselves) have voted for each other. If that's okay, then fine. However, very small of votes would make others wary about the election process. --George Ho (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * enwn is a small project and therefore the number of votes is going to be less. Information about the election has always posted well in advance through multiple channels.  Someone who nominates a user is also allowed to vote for them.  Please read the rules of ArbCom, George Ho.  One can't vote for themselves, but they are allowed to vote for others.  Top six candidates with the most amount of vote are elected to be the ArbCom. •–•  01:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm... "top six" seems a little too excessive for this "small project". How about reducing the number of top candidates to five or less? --George Ho (talk) 01:33, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

No, I do not agree with you on that. Six ArbComs have been working fine for us. As an active user, I don't see any problem this move will solve, given there is no problem our project is facing in that dimension. •–• 01:50, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Current activity of ArbCom (2022)
I was hoping this year's elections came. To this date, I've not yet seen one change this year. Furthermore, I don't know whether arbitrators of last year are still in charge of ArbCom. George Ho (talk) 09:09, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Wikinews talk:Arbitration Committee


text:
Australian science organisation discontinues genetically modified pea research

November 19, 2005 The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) has discontinued research into a type of Genetically Modified (GM) field pea that had been shown to be 100% protected against attack by pea weevils, a type of insect. The genetically modified field pea's protein was found to have a slightly altered structure which caused an allergic-style reaction in the lungs of mice and led scientists to believe it could have similar effects on human lungs. "That was enough to alert me to say this research should come to an end," CSIRO Plant Industry Deputy Director TJ Higgins said.

An earlier example of a problem with a GM food was a protein-enhanced soy product that was abandoned because the Brazil nut gene transferred to the soy produced a protein that could cause allergic reactions in some people. That 1996 study was conducted and funded by the University of Nebraska and Pioneer Hi-Bred International.

Environmental activism organizations like Greenpeace were spawned by the negative effects of the Petrochemical era. They are now campaigning against GM research. Greenpeace members have observed that not all reports of possible complications from GM foods found during product development have resulted in a quick end to further research. Rootworm-resistant GM corn caused "serious organ damage" to rats in Germany, but the corn developed by Monsanto was approved for consumption in Australia by Food Standards Australia New Zealand said Greenpeace GM spokesman Jeremy Tager. A scientific review panel of the European Food Safety Authority reviewed the results of a 13-week rat feeding study on rootworm-resistant corn that had been submitted by German authorities. Although the study found some differences in the kidneys of rats fed the GM corn, the scientists concluded that these results were "not considered to pose concerns over the safety of MON 863 maize". Many published studies performed with rats and other test animals have found no danger from the Monsanto rootworm-resistant corn. Within science, it is desirable that all research reports be reproduced and confirmed.

Australia has a $100 million field pea industry, so substantial amounts of chemicals are used to protect the industry's crops against the pea weevil Bruchus pisorum, though some crops use organic control options. The pea weevil can cause yield losses of up to 30 per cent a year if left uncontrolled. So the CSIRO is in search of an alternative to using genetic modification. The CSIRO are not alone in the GM industry. Bayer and Monsanto are both privately owned corporations who also operate outside Australia's strict regulatory system. A spokeswoman for Bayer Crop Sciences said the CSIRO's decision had no impact on the firm's GM work. Monsanto has not responded to media inquiries. Dr Higgins said the findings proved the safety of Australia's strict research regulatory framework.

"I think that this shows that the regulatory system works," he said.

"The regulations are stringent, they are difficult, but on balance I'm very pleased as a consumer of food myself that these regulations are in place."

The genetically modified pea plants were produced by transfer of the amylase inhibitor-1 gene from a species of bean. The structure of the alpha-amylase inhibitor-1 protein produced by the pea plants is slightly different from the structure of the same protein when made by bean plants. This structural modification may be due to differences in posttranslational modification of the protein. The altered protein from peas was found to predispose mice to a form of food antigen-stimulated inflammation response that is mediated by CD4-positive T helper cells.


text:
Talk:At least 60 killed in Iraq suicide bombings

Dept of Defense picture
Good grief, all the dead and injured, and I post a picture of a soldier applying a bandaid to a man's foot. -68.232.153.54 03:34, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
Australian man to be executed in Singapore

November 19, 2005

Supporters of convicted Australian drug trafficker, Van Nguyen, gathered outside the State Library in Melbourne yesterday to display thousands of messages of opposition to his death sentence.

Callers to talkback radio in Melbourne were overwhelmingly against the death penalty of Nguyen, who immediately admitted his guilt and has cooperated with authorities since being caught smuggling heroin into Singapore. Many called for a boycott of Singaporean products.

25-year-old Nguyen was arrested at Changi Airport in 2002 for carrying heroin and sentenced to death in March. Nguyen claims he carried the 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body in an attempt to pay off his brother Khoa's $30,000 legal debts.

The Singapore government have announced they will execute Nguyen at dawn on December 2nd. Singapore President S. R. Nathan rejected Nguyen's clemency four weeks ago. The Melbourne salesman was sentenced to death under Singapore law which determines a mandatory death sentence for anyone found guilty of possessing 15 grams of heroin or more.

Nguyen's mother was informed on Thursday by registered mail from the Singapore prisons service of the execution date. The letter stated that she should start making funeral arrangements. She will get to see her son in the three days leading up to the execution.

Despite repeated pleas for clemency from many thousands of supporters; religious groups; human rights organisations; the Pope; and the Australian Government - including Prime Minister, John Howard - Singapore officials have said Nguyen's execution is irreversible.

Mr Howard had argued that Nguyen should be spared, citing mitigating circumstances in his case which pointed to the fact that he was not a serial drug trafficker but had merely been trying to pay off his brother's debts.

The Victorian Attorney-General, Rob Hulls, says the Singaporean Government has shown no compassion whatsoever in its treatment of Van Nguyen and his family.

"What's happening is brutal, is inappropriate. I, and the Victorian Government, vehemently oppose the death penalty in any circumstances", he told ABC Radio. "This is a young kid who has assisted the police all the way... In any other country, he would get a discount in relation to the penalty. But because there is a mandatory death penalty for drug offences in Singapore, this young man may well be executed. It is just grossly inappropriate."

"Singapore maintains that capital punishment is a criminal justice issue; it is the sovereign right of every country to decide whether or not to include capital punishment within its criminal justice system," a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.

Singapore argues that there was no international consensus that capital punishment should be abolished. At the most recent meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights, 66 countries dissociated themselves from a resolution calling for the abolition of capital punishment.

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong affirmed Singapore's position by saying that it has to "stand firm on drugs to protect its citizens from the scourge and to ensure the country does not become a conduit for the trafficking of illicit drugs."

In reply to a letter appealing for clemency from his Australian counterpart Alexander Downer, Singapore Foreign Minister George Yeo said: "Mr Nguyen imported almost 400gm of pure heroin which would have supplied more than 26,000 doses to drug addicts."

No one will be permitted to see Nguyen on the morning of his execution. His body will be released to his mother.

Bungle over execution date release
On Thursday, a letter informing Nguyen's mother of the Dec 2 date was accidentally sent earlier than intended by the Singapore authorities. As a result, Australian Prime Minister John Howard was caught offguard when asked by reporters on Thursday if he knew that Nguyen would be executed on Dec 2.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer yesterday admitted he had been told several days ago that a letter would be sent this week to Nguyen's mother. Mr Downer said his Singapore counterpart, George Yeo, had told him on Monday night, when they were both in Busan, that the family would be sent a letter which they would receive yesterday.

"So the Singapore Prime Minister had assumed that the letter would arrive on Friday," Mr Downer said. "The letter arrived a day earlier than they had anticipated."

Australian Prime Minister John Howard said yesterday the differences between Australia and Singapore over the planned execution of convicted drug smuggler Nguyen Tuong Van would not damage relations between the two countries.

"It is not an issue where we agree but our disagreement on the treatment of Mr Nguyen is not going to contaminate the very good relationship between Australia and Singapore," Mr Howard was quoted as saying in an AAP report.

Lawyers say: regime should change
Mr Lex Lasry, QC, who heads Nguyen's Melbourne legal team, recently told Singapore's high commissioner in Canberra that the "regime" of the mandatory death penalty would have to change.

"At some point, the Singapore Government must realise as a First World country it can no longer continue to impose mandatory death sentences. They simply can't keep doing this to people," he said. He described as an "outrageous injustice" the Singapore law that denies lawyers the chance to argue to a judge why a client should not be hanged.

"Let the rest of the world know we are not prepared to tolerate it and ultimately they will have to change their minds," he said.

"Even if our client is executed as he probably will be, the campaign against Singapore's mandatory death sentence will continue," Mr Lasry said.

Mr Lasry said the fight to save Nguyen would continue over the next few weeks.

Execution methods reviewed
Nguyen Tuong Van may be the last person to face the hangman in Singapore after a review of execution methods in Singapore. The nation's chief hangman, Darshan Singh, has told prison officials he wants to retire, but finding a replacement has been unsuccessful. One of two candidates picked to replace Mr Singh was unable to complete his first execution. A second left the prison service.

Mr Singh, a veteran of over 850 hangings, is reportedly unhappy with the new machinery, which is prone to malfunction. The Australian newspaper reports that Singapore officials have been studying other methods of execution and are considering the lethal injection technique used in the United States.

The lethal injection method being considered by Singapore officials as an alternative is modelled on the procedure introduced in 1977 in Oklahoma. The prisoner is strapped to a gurney and an intravenous tube is inserted into each arm with a flow of harmless saline solution. At the warden's signal, 5g of sodium pentothal is administered, which renders the prisoner unconscious.

It is followed by pancuronium bromide, a muscle relaxant that paralyses the diaphragm and lungs, and finally potassium chloride, which causes cardiac arrest.


text:
User:Mrmiscellanious/Vote/Header

''This is a poll conducted by MrMiscellanious. Your response does not constitute as a vote for any community issue, nor does the poll constitue any consensus based on its outcome. The outcome of the poll is not intended to be used for any purposes by any persons. Only registered users' votes will be counted.''

''' DO NOT COMMENT on your vote, or it will be voided. SIGN your responses (unsigned votes will be voided). '''

Example of a valid vote:
 * === "NO" VOTES ===
 * --Mrmiscellanious 04:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Begin voting below.

title: User:Mrmiscellanious/Vote/Header


text:
Talk:Australian science organisation discontinues genetically modified pea research

is reporting from a press release original reporting?--Whywhywhy 04:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No... --Chiacomo (talk) 05:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

thanks :) --Whywhywhy 05:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Odd paragraph
Does this have anything to do with the story:

"This is at least the second time a protein-enhanced soy product was abandoned because the brazil nut gene transferred to the soy produced a protein that could cause allergic reactions in some people. The study was funded by the University of Nebraska ." --JWSchmidt 13:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I changed the second paragraph to correctly use the soy product as an earlier example of a GM food product that was found to have a problem. --JWSchmidt 14:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

serious organ damage
"Even though a GM corn caused "serious organ damage" to rats in Germany"

Can someone provide a reference for this? --JWSchmidt 14:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I added material from the European Food Safety Authority that seems to address the German rodent study. --JWSchmidt 15:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


title: File:19November2005.sxw


title: File:19November2005.pdf


text:
User talk:67.124.227.221

Welcome
67.124.227.221, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Additionally, please don't post copyrighted text to Wikinews. Stuff like that has to get deleted. --Deprifry|+T+ 09:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
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 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
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title: User talk:67.124.227.221


text:
Category:November 19, 2005

de:Kategorie:19.11.2005 es:Categoría:19 de noviembre de 2005 fr:Catégorie:19 novembre 2005 it:Categoria:19 novembre 2005 ja:Category:2005年11月19日 pl:Kategoria:19 listopada 2005 pt:Categoria:19 de novembro de 2005 ru:Категория:19 ноября 2005

title: Category:November 19, 2005


text:
User talk:Romsatwikinews~enwikinews

Welcome
Romsatwikinews, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! - Brian McNeil / talk 11:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Romsatwikinews. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Romsatwikinews~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

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Sawasdee! Thanks for starting a new article about Thailand! Some things to consider:

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User talk:203.122.201.13

Welcome
203.122.201.13, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry|+T+ 12:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
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User talk:66.65.42.35

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. 66.65.42.35, welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry|+T+ 16:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
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User talk:24.195.234.90

Welcome
24.195.234.90, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry|+T+ 16:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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Carter's CIA chief labels Dick Cheney "vice president for torture"

November 19, 2005 The former director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Admiral Stansfield Turner, in a frank interview with the United Kingdom's ITV has condemned the current US administration. His comments indicated that he believed President George Bush is not being truthful when he states that torture is not employed by the US.

Turner, whose term as CIA director was during the 1977 – 1981 administration of Jimmy Carter said, "I am embarrassed that the USA has a vice president for torture. I think it is just reprehensible. He advocates torture, what else is it? I just don't understand how a man in that position can take such a stance."

Previous statements by both President Bush and Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, have emphatically stated that torture by US forces is not condoned.

In early October the Senate supported Senator John McCain's (R-Ariz) proposed amendment on detainees and torture. The amendment would outlaw coercive interrogations and prohibits cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment of detainees and change current US laws. In contrast, Vice President Dick Cheney has lobbied Republican senators to allow an exemption for those held by the CIA. Senator Chuck Hagel (R-Neb) said, "I think the administration is making a terrible mistake in opposing John McCain's amendment on detainees and torture," That amendment was approved by a 90-9 vote in the Senate and added to a defense spending bill.


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U.S. House vote forced on immediate pullout of troops in Iraq

November 19, 2005

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) on Friday called a vote in the House on a nonbinding resolution to immediately withdraw troops from Iraq. The one-sentence resolution read: "It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."

Democrats in the House called the resolution a political stunt, saying that it misrepresented the comments of Rep. John Murtha (D-PA), who a day before said "Our troops have become the enemy. We need to change direction in Iraq." Murtha, a decorated Vietnam War veteran and a retired Marine, had called for a six-month withdrawal of US forces in Iraq during a news conference on Thursday.

The House chamber debate was highly partisan and emotionally charged. At one point in the debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-OH) said a Marine colonel in her state of Ohio telephoned and asked her to "send Congress a message: Stay the course." Schmidt said, "He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message: Cowards cut and run. Marines never do." At this, Rep. Harold Ford, Jr. (D-TN) and other Democrats surged toward the Republican side of the chamber in anger. "You guys are pathetic! Pathetic!" yelled Rep. Martin T. Meehan (D-MA).

Many Democrats angrily and repeatedly shouted for Jean Schmidt to "take her words down!" She did, when order was restored to the chamber, rise and say, "My words were not directed at any member of the House," and asked that her comments be retracted from the record. House rules forbid members to impugn the integrity of other members.

The vote failed, 403-3. The three House members who voted for the resolution's passage were Jose E. Serrano (D-NY), Cynthia A. McKinney (D-GA) and Robert Wexler (D-FL).


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US bombers to train in Australia

November 19, 2005

In a joint agreement by and the, the U.S. Air Force will begin regular strategic bomber aircraft training in the  early next year. At the recent high-level talks between the U.S. and Australia it was announced that the strategic bomber training program would involve  and  bombers and the.

Under the new arrangements aircraft would fly direct from the United States for bombing operations at the Delamere Air Weapons Range situated about 130km south-west of [[w:Katherine, Northern Territory|Katherine}} in the Northern Territory. Delamere is a 211,000ha bombing range used regularly by the for dropping live weapons. The  would also be available for the bombers to land and refuel if necessary. The planes will fly to the Northern Territory from the U.S. Pacific Island base of.

Support
says Australia is helping in the rebalancing of America's military forces in Asia. Senator Hill said strategic bomber training had been conducted some time ago and that the U.S. had now asked Australia whether it could be resumed.

"We have said we are happy to assist," Senator Hill told reporters. Mr Hill said some of the aircraft may not even touch down in Australia, while others will land at the Darwin RAAF base.

The bombers will fly from the major US base on the Pacific island of. "It may be aircraft that come down to Australia from a considerable distance and use our bombing ranges and then return without landing," he said. "There will also be occasions when the aircraft will land and utilise facilities at Darwin. We think it's just another example in which we can be helpful to our ally".

Labor's opposition defence spokesman,, also supports the program. "It's very important to our long-term security that we support the United States alliance as a partner - not being dictated to in anyway - but as a partner," he said. "It is quite reasonable we provide a significant resource we have in Australia, which is open space, to develop the technologies and the skills."

Concerns
But the are outraged by the project, saying there has been no consultation in the Territory. "The Australian Government more and more is allowing the Americans to view this country as the 51st state," said.

The mayor of Katherine, Anne Shepherd, also has serious concerns about the plan. "I know of the other accidents that have happened there when the Americans were training," Ms Shepherd said.

In August this year, A U.S. Marine Corps fighter jet dropped a bomb and damaged a building in an accident. The bomb, dropped by an, exploded near a control tower and damaged facilities at Delamere Air Weapons Range - attached to the RAAF Base Tindal near Katherine.

At the time, said: "Things like this will always happen; we hope not very frequently and we hope not any more dangerously," he told Melbourne Radio 3AW in August. "But the idea that you can conduct any kind of military exercise without some kind of potential for mishap is unrealistic."

Ms Shepherd is also worried about the possible use of. "I know that they use the depleted uranium on the warheads for added penetration ... and the weapons can penetrate much more easily with the depleted uranium and I'd be quite concerned if they use those kind of weapons," she said.

The Northern Territory Environment Center says it is disgusted by the announcement. Co-ordinator Peter Robertson is alarmed about the location of the training. "Only a matter of 100 kilometres or so from one of the proposed dump sites near Katherine, and it would be extraordinarily alarming and ironic if an American B-52 bomber dropped a live bomb on top of the Commonwealth's nuclear waste dump," he said.

Concerns have also been raised about the environmental impact of the training program. Australia and the United States have agreed to work towards world's best practice in environmental management for the combined military activities.

But Mr Robertson says world's best practice is simply to stop doing it. "Not to do it in a way that puts at risk communities, the environment... I mean the notion that there are clean green bombs that can be rained down on the Northern Territory, or any other part of the world, is an absolute nonsense," he said.

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Talk:Australian man to be executed in Singapore

POV
This article seems strongly anti-death penalty to me. I suggest comparing the rate of drug use in Singapore with other nations to see if the death penalty is effective. Also, whether Van was aware of the death penalty and chose to smuggle drugs into Singapore anyway would be good to know. There are two Australian sources (Australian Broadcating Corporation, The Australian) and two anti-death penalty sites (Amnesty International, Foreign Prisoners Support Service) listed, but none I can identify as from Singapore or from pro-death penalty sources. This shows POV bias. StuRat 19:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The Singapore government are "Pro-Death Penalty" already. There are also 2 Singapore news agencey sources cited: MediaCorp Press Ltd and The Malaysian National News Agency. Also I've added: "Singapore argues that there was no international consensus that capital punishment should be abolished. At the most recent meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights, 66 countries dissociated themselves from a resolution calling for the abolition of capital punishment." Hope that suffices... :) --elliot_k 04:37, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Silly me, I thought the Malaysian National News Agency was from Malaysia, not Singapore, I wonder how I came to that conclusion ? I also discovered that "The Age" is Australian, so that means there are 5 Australian or anti-death penalty sources and only 1 Singapore or pro-death penalty source (MediaCorp Press Ltd).  That still seems rather seriously lopsided to me.  The Singapore government may very well be pro-death penalty, but you haven't cited any government publications as sources, so that's quite irrelevant.  Also note that the pic shows him in a suit and tie, looking rather respectable, versus a shot with the drugs strapped to his body or even a mug shot, which would show the other side.  Incidentally, the title is not POV, it only stats the facts with no bias...nice job on that.  StuRat 05:03, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if Mr Ngyuen is wearing a suit and tie. There are just no other pics i can find. Thats the one from Wikipedia. But I can't grasp why its "irrelevant" that the Singapore gov are pro-death penalty. Its an obvious conlusion I'd have thought, since they are the mob about to kill this man. What sorts of "government publications" should I have included? Confused and a little stupified. --elliot_k 05:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Another thought for a balancing picture would be a stock shot of a heroin junkie shooting up. A Singapore junkie would be best, but any would do. StuRat 01:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, not being able to find sources to balance a story is always a problem, that's true. Note that removing the excess of anti-death penalty sources is an alternative to adding more pro-death penalty sources.  Particularly, I would remove the two anti-death penalty organizations (Amnesty International, Foreign Prisoners Support Service), and perhaps pare down the Australian sources to just one, to match the one Singapore source.  You could leave the two "nuetral" sources, from Malaysia and the US, neither of which have a vested interest in the outcome.  That would give you 4 sources, which is plenty.  Of course, if you have info from removed sources, that would also need to be removed or found in another source.

 * It's irrelevant, during a discussion of balancing sources, if anyone is pro-death penalty, if you haven't listed them as a source. It would also be irrelevent if anyone is anti-death penalty, in said discussion, of you didn't list them as a source.  Perhaps a discussion of their justification for the death penalty, with drug statistics, might exist from the Singapore government. StuRat 05:38, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Since when does the country in which a news organisation is based have anything to do with their neutrality? What makes you assume that a US based source is "neutral", but the Singaporean or Australian news organisations are not? What are these "vested interests in the outcome" of which you speak? - Borofkin 22:40, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * In any conflict between nations, news sources from those two nations can be assumed to take the side of their respective nations. There may be exceptions, to be sure, but that will be the general pattern.  Nations not directly involved in the conflict can be assumed to be comparatively neutral.  For example, during WW2, I wouldn't have expected neutral reporting from the combatants on either side, but perhaps I would from those who were not involved in the war. StuRat 00:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

 * This is hardly a war. And besides, the US is non-neutral when it comes to the death penalty, so shouldn't we expect news sources from this country to be biased? Regardless, my point is that it is is the article that has to be NPOV - I don't see why we should be attempting to achieve balance in the sources, especially between news organisations. They are used as sources for information that we present in the article as being factual. If the aticle is balanced, then who cares where the facts came from? If you are going to dispute that a certain statement is factual, then that is a different story. - Borofkin 00:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, some US states allow capital punishment while others have banned it, with only Texas having substantial numbers of executions. NPOV doesn't just demand that facts be supported by sources, but rather that a roughly equal number of facts, quotes, etc., be provided from both sides of the issue.  If the sources are heavily biased toward one country or one opinion, I would expect the facts and quotes provided to be similarly biased towards the POV of that country and that opinion.  Note that I am not saying that Australian and anti-death penalty sites shouldn't be used, but only that they should be balanced by a roughly equal number of Singapore and pro-death penalty sites, so the article contains an even balance of opinions (although I would prefer that strictly pro-death penalty or anti-death penalty sites be left out all together).  The US and Malaysia just don't enter into the balance, since they aren't on either side of the debate over this particular execution. StuRat 02:02, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

 * StuRat said: "If the sources are heavily biased toward one country or one opinion, I would expect the facts and quotes provided to be similarly biased towards the POV of that country and that opinion." So? As long as *we* are presenting a balanced view of the debate, the perceived bias in the sources is irrelevant.

 * StuRat said: "but only that they should be balanced by a roughly equal number of Singapore and pro-death penalty sites, so the article contains an even balance of opinions" You seem to be suggesting by this statement that if there is an imbalance in the sources, then there will be an imbalance in the article. This is not the case - a source may be listed because it provides one tiny little piece of information. It is impossible to tell by looking at the list of sources how much of the information in the article came from each source.

 * It is possible that 5 times as many quotes and facts could be taken from the sole pro-death penalty source as each of the 5 anti-death penalty sources, to even things out, but this is not the case in this article. See my analysis at the bottom. StuRat 01:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * StuRat said: "although I would prefer that strictly pro-death penalty or anti-death penalty sites be left out all together" Why? I would have thought that a strictly anti-death penalty site (such as Amnesty International) would be the perfect place to source an anti-death penalty opinion. - Borofkin 04:38, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I would prefer it, since sites which push one POV over all others, in my opinion, tend to play loose with the facts, and will say whatever will support their case, whether it is true or not. A reputable news organization is less likely to do that than a "special interest" site.  I wouldn't trust gun statistics from the National Rifle Association (a pro-gun group) for the same reason.  I trust Australian news orgs not to lie to support their POV, although they might "cherry-pick" facts that support their POV.  This is a lesser problem which can be more easily dealt with by using equivalent sources on the other side (Singapore).  StuRat 01:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Who cares if they play loose with the facts? Our job is not to determine what is true or not, it is to present the debate. "Amnesty international says such-and-such, however the Singaporean government rejects this, and they say such-and-such". It makes no difference whether "such-and-such" is factually true or raving propaganda. It is the fact that they said it that we are reporting. - Borofkin 01:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * We should try to choose the most accurate sources we can find. We shouldn't quote the National Enquirer, for example, when they claim Elvis has married a Sasquatch woman and they are raising a family in Antartica. StuRat 01:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I realise that. Amnesty International is the most accurate source available regarding what Amnesty International thinks about the death penalty. The National Rifle Association is the most accurate source available regarding what the National Rifle Association thinks about gun control. - Borofkin 01:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, and the National Enquirer is the most accurate source available regarding what the National Enquirer claims Elvis is doing at any given time. That doesn't mean we need to use WikiNews as a platform for their wacky opinions.  The fact that an anti-death penalty site opposes a death sentence is hardly news, is it ?  If they were to all of a sudden turn around and support a death sentence, now that might be news. StuRat 02:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Amnesty International and the Singaporean government are major players in the death-penalty debate, so their opinions are significant and relavent. The National Enquirer is not a major player and therefore it's opinions are not as relavent (although that doesn't mean that they necessarily shouldn't be included in a Wikinews article). Note that reporting on the National Enquirers opinion on an issue is not the same as using the National Enquirer as a source for a fact relating to an issue. - Borofkin 03:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The reason I used these sources was to identify/corroborate everthing which has been written in my article. The story is about an Australian man. It is major story news here in Australia. The article opens with the Rally in Melbourne. The story focuses on the situation of an Australian man facing the death penalty. It is to be assumed that Singapore is Pro Death Peanalty... --elliot_k 05:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It involves Singapore at least as much as Australia, since the crime, arrest, trial, and execution all happened/will happen there. It isn't mentioned in the article, but is the man also of Singapore birth or ancestry ?  If so, it also involves Singapore in that respect.  So, to base it primarily on the Australian POV and not present the balancing Singapore POV is unfair.  If the article was titled "Australian anti-death penalty rally in Melbourne", and only mentioned Van in passing, you might have a point.  As is, however, the article is primarily about the execution, not the Australian protest movement, so should present both sides equally. StuRat 01:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * "So, to base it primarily on the Australian POV and not present the balancing Singapore POV is unfair." - this is new. Are you suggesting that the article itself is POV? Do you think that the POV of the Singaporean government is not adequately represented in the article? Note that it is not possible to determine such a bias by looking at the sources, but it is possible by looking at the article itself. - Borofkin 01:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes ! I believe my very first sentence stated that: "This article seems strongly anti-death penalty to me."  I was using the ratio of sources as an indicator of bias in the article itself.  But, since you reject that, I have painstakingly broken down the entire article by pro- and anti-death penalty statements and pictures below...

 * Right. Now we're getting somewhere. I've reviewed your analysis of the article, and acknowledge that more article space is devoted to opinions and comments opposing the execution of Mr Nguyen than supporting the execution of Mr Nguyen. However, I don't believe that this necessarily relfects bias. It may be that there are more people and organisations in the world that oppose the execution. Do you think that the POV of the Singaporean government has been represented fairly? Is there anything missing from the Singaporean POV? - Borofkin 02:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, an equal volume is missing: An equal number of quotes, an equal number of pictures, and equal number of facts on their side of the argument, etc.  For example, there is no mention of the number of deaths caused by drugs smuggled into Asian nations each year or the number of lives destroyed by those drugs. StuRat 02:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Why should there be an equal number of quotes, facts, etc? You seem to be reducing news to mathematical forumulas. "there is no mention of the number of deaths caused by drugs smuggled into Asian nations each year or the number of lives destroyed by those drugs," This is a little more specific, which is a Good Thing when it comes to NPOV debates. Remember, however, that it is an article on a specific execution, not a general article on the death penalty. Has anyone argued that Mr Nguyen's execution is justified because he was contributing to the deaths of innocents? If not, then I don't see why it is Wikinews' responsibility to make this argument. - Borofkin 03:19, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe the statement that the drugs he delivered would provide 26,000 doses to drug addicts was a step in that direction, but was not followed up by a statement of the effect this would have on the population. I have listed many other specifics, like the need for a balancing picture (I even made several suggestions), the need to compare the rate of drug use in Singapore with other nations to see if the death penalty is effective, and whether Van was aware of the death penalty and chose to smuggle drugs into Singapore anyway. StuRat 03:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * As for your statement that this is not an article on the death penalty in general, that would seem to require the removal of many statements which are general opposition to the death penalty, in Singapore, such as these:

"What's happening is brutal, is inappropriate. I, and the Victorian Government, vehemently oppose the death penalty in any circumstances", he told ABC Radio.

Mr Lex Lasry, QC, who heads Nguyen's Melbourne legal team, recently told Singapore's high commissioner in Canberra that the "regime" of the mandatory death penalty would have to change.

"At some point, the Singapore Government must realise as a First World country it can no longer continue to impose mandatory death sentences. They simply can't keep doing this to people," he said. He described as an "outrageous injustice" the Singapore law that denies lawyers the chance to argue to a judge why a client should not be hanged.

"Let the rest of the world know we are not prepared to tolerate it and ultimately they will have to change their minds," he said.

"...the campaign against Singapore's mandatory death sentence will continue," Mr Lasry said.

 * Your idea that a POV bias is permissable if it matches the POV bias in the world in general is interesting, but I haven't heard this before. Is this an actual policy ?  I wouldn't think it would be very workable as it would require that we know the POV of the world on each issue.  We might actually be able to guess at it here (based on the number of countries which permit executions times their respective populations, compared with the world population), but we certainly wouldn't know the world opinion in many other cases.  Also, it could be argued that, since our audience is the English-speaking world, we should only consider the English-speaking world's opinion. StuRat 02:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * NPOV does appear to be a fuzzy and difficult to implement concept - that's why I generally prefer people to edit the article directly rather than declare on the talk page that the article is POV. When a person edits directly, everyone can see what it is that they think is wrong, rather than having to assume or extrapolate from talk page comments. When two editors of the article come into conflict, then they should debate on the talk page (rather than engaging in an edit war). Regarding this comment: "matches the POV bias in the world in general", isn't that our goal? To present the way the world is in a news article? - Borofkin 03:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * An argument could be made for it, but, like I said, I don't believe that is current WikiNews policy due, in part, to the difficulty in implementing such a policy. The current policy, as I understand it, is that all opinions should be represented EQUALLY, meaning roughly 50% of the facts, quotes, opinions, pictures, and sources should be on each side of a two part debate. StuRat 03:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I challenge you to direct me to the policy page that states what you have said here. - Borofkin 03:51, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Here are the relevant passages I found at :

Anglo-American-centric point of view (I assume this extrapolates to Australians, as well, unless there is a POV bias in the NPOV policy, LOL)

''Wikinews seems to have an Anglo-American focus. Is this contrary to the neutral point of view?''

Yes, it is, especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective. The presence of articles written from a United States or British perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and British citizens working on the project, which in turn is a reflection of the fact that so many of them are online. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration from people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter. This is not only a problem in the English Wikipedia. The French Wikipedia may reflect a Continental French bias, the Japanese Wikipedia may suffer from Japanese bias, and so on.

 * This came as a surprise to me, it actually seems to support your view:

"If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties."

 * So, since I know of no way to poll "experts on the death penalty", that leaves us with the proportion of the concerned parties, being Australia (20,090,437) and Singapore (4,425,720). Amazingly, this seems to be the exact 5:1 ratio of bias in this article and the sources.  I strongly disagree with this policy, as it means things like the Chinese invasion of Tibet and subsequent massacre should be portrayed overwhelmingly as a good thing, since there are so many more Chinese than Tibetans (especially after the massacre).  But, since it seems to be policy, I guess we are stuck with it.  Of course, if Australia ever has a dispute with the United States (300,000,000), this means that 93% of the article should be written in support of the US POV and only 7% from the Aussie POV.  I look forward to that ! StuRat 04:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, a majority of Australians support the death penalty in some circumstances, and I suspect that a significant number of Singaporeans would be opposed to the death penalty. You are trying too hard to quantify. The "concerned parties" are: Mr Nguyen and associates (mother, lawyer, etc), the Australian government, the Singaporean government, human rights groups, Australian public opinion (as determined by opinion polls, talkback callers, etc), Singaporean public opinion (same). The article needs to represent these points-of-view in appropriate proportions. The Singaporean government deserves a lot because they are the ones who are responsible for the execution, and Australian talkback callers deserve very little, because they are mostly a bunch of crackpots. To calculate the population ratio between two countries and then argue that this should be reflected in the number of words in the article is a total misunderstanding of NPOV, IMO. - Borofkin 04:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I certainly hope that you are right and I misintepretted it, since it seems like a really stupid policy otherwise. Let me ask you to state your opinion.  Do you think the current 5:1 ratio of anti-death penalty POV to pro-death penalty POV is the proper ratio ?  If not, what ratio should we aim for ? StuRat 05:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * My position is that there is no proper ratio. The POV of the Singaporean government has been represented in the article, in a way that I consider adequate. If another Wikinews contributor does not consider it to be adequate, then I have no problem with them expanding on it. I think such an expansion would certianly enrich the article. - Borofkin 05:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I also think family members of current or potential heroin addicts in Singapore should be given a strong weighting in any debate over how to best stop drug smugglers from destroying their families. I have seen none of that mentioned here. StuRat 05:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think you're trying to push this news story into the realm of news analysis rather than news reporting. The story here is that this man is going to be executed for a particular crime, and this man's home country is in an uproar over it. We don't have to justify anyone's argument one way or another. We just have to report it. Given that "current or potential heroin addicts" don't have a direct stake in this story (indeed, such a wide net encompasses the entire population of Singapore), they don't need to be represented here. Unless, of course, a subsegment of that population does something newsworthy that is associated with this article, i.e. stage a protest in support of this man's death sentence. - Steve T

 * If you were to add something like that to the article I wouldn't have a problem with it, although I don't think that the article is biased without it. - Borofkin 05:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

POV analysis of article by StuRat
Following is a break-down of pro- and anti-death penalty content (neutral content was left out). I think it closely matches the 5 to 1 ratio of the sources, in bias towards the anti- side. StuRat 01:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

A N T I - D E A T H  P E N A L T Y   C O N T E N T

Supporters of convicted Australian drug trafficker, Van Nguyen, gathered outside the State Library in Melbourne yesterday to display thousands of messages of opposition to his death sentence.

Callers to talkback radio in Melbourne were overwhelmingly against the death penalty of Nguyen, who immediately admitted his guilt and has cooperated with authorities since being caught smuggling heroin into Singapore. Many called for a boycott of Singaporean products.

Nguyen claims he carried the 396 grams of heroin strapped to his body in an attempt to pay off his brother Khoa's $30,000 legal debts.

Despite repeated pleas for clemency from many thousands of supporters; religious groups; human rights organisations; the Pope; and the Australian Government - including Prime Minister, John Howard - Singapore officials have said Nguyen's execution is irreversible.

Mr Howard had argued that Nguyen should be spared, citing mitigating circumstances in his case which pointed to the fact that he was not a serial drug trafficker but had merely been trying to pay off his brother's debts.

The Victorian Attorney-General, Rob Hulls, says the Singaporean Government has shown no compassion whatsoever in its treatment of Van Nguyen and his family.

"What's happening is brutal, is inappropriate. I, and the Victorian Government, vehemently oppose the death penalty in any circumstances, he told ABC Radio. "This is a young kid who has assisted the police all the way... In any other country, he would get a discount in relation to the penalty. But because there is a mandatory death penalty for drug offences in Singapore, this young man may well be executed. It is just grossly inappropriate."

Mr Lex Lasry, QC, who heads Nguyen's Melbourne legal team, recently told Singapore's high commissioner in Canberra that the "regime" of the mandatory death penalty would have to change.

"At some point, the Singapore Government must realise as a First World country it can no longer continue to impose mandatory death sentences. They simply can't keep doing this to people," he said. He described as an "outrageous injustice" the Singapore law that denies lawyers the chance to argue to a judge why a client should not be hanged.

"Let the rest of the world know we are not prepared to tolerate it and ultimately they will have to change their minds," he said.

"Even if our client is executed as he probably will be, the campaign against Singapore's mandatory death sentence will continue," Mr Lasry said.

Mr Lasry said the fight to save Nguyen would continue over the next few weeks.

P R O - D E A T H  P E N A L T Y   C O N T E N T

"Singapore maintains that capital punishment is a criminal justice issue; it is the sovereign right of every country to decide whether or not to include capital punishment within its criminal justice system," a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.

Singapore argues that there was no international consensus that capital punishment should be abolished. At the most recent meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights, 66 countries dissociated themselves from a resolution calling for the abolition of capital punishment.

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong affirmed Singapore's position by saying that it has to "stand firm on drugs to protect its citizens from the scourge and to ensure the country does not become a conduit for the trafficking of illicit drugs."

In reply to a letter appealing for clemency from his Australian counterpart Alexander Downer, Singapore Foreign Minister George Yeo said: "Mr Nguyen imported almost 400gm of pure heroin which would have supplied more than 26,000 doses to drug addicts."

WN:FAC
I've nominated this article for Featured article status based on how in-depth it is. Bawolff ☺☻ 03:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

In Memory of NGUYEN Tuong Van
Australia, awake from your slumber!

Awake from your slumber, Australia! Awake before it is too late! Today a son of yours has been killed. Don’t you care? Don’t you care, Australia?

Certainly, it is your prodigal son. Certainly, he has wandered away from home. Today, your son has been killed. Don’t you care? Don’t you care, Australia?

Where is your fatherhood? Where is your motherhood? In your warm bed how could you sleep? O Australia, don’t you care of your wandering children?

How many more of them will be killed? Will you leave them to their fate? Will you say it was their fault? Australia, where is your parenthood?

You do not kill your children if they commit fault. How could you let your neighbors kill them? True, you have warned them of the danger. Is that the reason for you to ignore their death?

How could you shake hands of the killers? Was your face veiled by money? Is the business deal with your neighbors more important? Or are you careless about your children’s lives?

How could you keep a big smile with your neighbors? How could you claim your successful reign, When your children are being slaughtered in your sight? Australia, arise from your sleep before it is too late!

Australia, where is your fatherhood? Where is your motherhood? How many more of your children will be killed? Will you leave them to their fate?

Awake, Australia! Awake, before it is too late! What can you tell God about your parenthood? What will you leave in the memory of your children From generation to generation and for ever?

Minh Bui In memory of Van Nguyen A drug trafficker killed by the Singapore Government 2nd December 2005

FAC