text:
User talk:Jacqui M Schedler~enwikinews

Welcome
Jacqui M Schedler, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Cspurrier 18:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Jacqui M Schedler. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Jacqui M Schedler~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:32, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jacqui M Schedler~enwikinews


text:
North, South Korea plan united team for 2008 Olympics

November 1, 2005

North and South Korea say they are ready to unify on the athletic field. For the first time, senior sports officials say the two countries will compete as a combined team in the next.

North and South Korea's top athletes will go for the gold as part of the same team during the 2008 Olympics in, and in the 2006 in ,.

Senior athletic officials from both countries confirmed the news on the sidelines of the ongoing East Asian games in,.

North Korean team representative Kim Yeong Min says the united team will be a powerful display for the world. Mr. Kim says the unified team will show the world that North and South Korea are one nation.

North and South Korean athletic teams have marched together in several past athletic opening ceremonies, but never competed as a unified team.

The Korean peninsula has been divided by the world's most heavily fortified border since the communist North fought the capitalist South in a 1950–53 war. But contacts between the two Koreas have increased in a gradual warming of relations since an historic 2000 summit in.

Sports-related cooperation is part of a broader strategy of North-South engagement supported by the South Korean government.

The two Koreas are expected to work out details of the combined team in a meeting next month in the North Korean border city of.

The location has come to symbolize South Korean economic engagement with the North, because it is the home of a South Korean industrial joint venture with Pyongyang. It is also where opened its first government liaison office in North Korea last week.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Sony's DRM protected CDs install Windows rootkits

'CD's
Copy-protected discs are technically and legally not 'CD's. Barefootguru 18:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah you're right. But what are we supposed to call them? --Deprifry | +T+ 18:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmmm… I don't have a good answer. Maybe it could have have been done as a paragraph explaining that? Barefootguru 23:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Good idea, we should not call them CDs if they are not CDs, I suggest we call them simply "copy-protected discs" or CPD. - 134.214.102.33 11:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that David Gray's new album has it also. I was popping in a copy to listen to at work and the computer spat it right back out saying that I had insufficient privileges to 'update' the sony software. It's released by Sony, and it *does* contain a software player, but the fact that it ejects if I don't override the auto-run is sketchy at best. I'm not positive of the exact error message because I loaned it to a co-worker. --CGW 18:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Can a list of artists that have CDs with this crap on them be added to the page? (I don't even have windows, so I wouldn't even be able to look). Perhaps someone could post the data session from such a CDROM, such that one could at least know how to recognize such a CD in a safe computer (i.e. linux).

 * Wikipedia has a similar list, w:Category:Copy_control_albums, but this kind of complete list is better left for external sites. — Barefootguru 23:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

They are "CD's" in the sense of their standard and such, however they break Audio (red book) standards. So they should be defined, in the most technical sense, as "data CD's". --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 22:26, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

If this is true, and no warning is given on the cd/packaging, for Sony to do this might well be a criminal offence in the UK, under the Misuse of Computers Act. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.40.156.205 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 3 November 2005

Broken link
editprotected

The link to Sysinternals blog is dead. The correct link is http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2005/10/31/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights-management-gone-too-far.aspx

 * Thanks for the link. Since the Sources section is an historical record of where information was drawn from, rather than a collection of related links, we oughtn't change the link there — but it's useful to know where the content of the broken link has got to.  --Pi zero (talk) 18:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Hal Mounce~enwikinews

Welcome
Hal Mounce, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Cspurrier 18:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Hal Mounce. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Hal Mounce~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

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Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:32, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hal Mounce~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Barefootguru

Welcome
Barefootguru, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 18:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
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 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
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 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:Barefootguru


text:
Wikinews:Briefs/November 1, 2005

Australian Foreign Affairs Minister denies knowledge of Guantanamo abuse allegations
Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs Alexander Downer denied his department knew of sexual abuse allegations by Australian Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks. He made his remarks after a TV exposé aired which included an interview with David's father Terry Hicks who described the abuse. Mr Downer's denials were contradicted by Hicks's military lawyer who said an Australian official was present during a US investigation interview in 2004, and David Hicks had detailed being assaulted during that interview.

Audio Wikinews transcript – 2005 11 01 – 1930 UTC
The time is 1930 (UTC) on Monday, November 1, 2005, and this is Audio Wikinews: News Briefs.

UN calls for further Syrian cooperation The United Nations Security Council has adopted a resolution calling for Syria to cooperate fully with the UN International Independent Investigation Commission. The Security Council demanded that Syria detain suspects indentified by the commission until they could be questioned. The resolution warns of "further action" if Syria fails to cooperate with the investigation.

Bush nominates Alito to U.S. Supreme Court U.S. President George W. Bush has nominated Samuel Alito to become an Associate Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court. Alito is currently a judge at the 3rd Circuit Appeals Court in Philadelphia and is viewed by many as a staunch conservative. This latest nomination process was made necessary when White House counsel Harriet Miers withdrew herself from consideration after being met with harsh criticism among Democrat and Republican lines alike.

Closing comments
Thank you for joining us today. To receive more up-to-date news items as they occur, please visit wikinews.org.

This has been a news brief for Audio Wikinews. Have a good day.

This recording has been released under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License.

title: Wikinews:Briefs/November 1, 2005


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title: Template:/-


text:
Australian Foreign Affairs Minister denies knowledge of Guantanamo abuse allegations/brief

 * Australian Foreign Affairs Minister denies knowledge of Guantanamo abuse allegations
 * Australian Minister for Foreign Affairs Alexander Downer denied his department knew of sexual abuse allegations by Australian Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks. He made his remarks after a TV exposé aired which included an interview with David's father Terry Hicks who described the abuse. Mr Downer's denials were contradicted by Hicks's military lawyer who said an Australian official was present during a US investigation interview in 2004, and David Hicks had detailed being assaulted during that interview.


text:
U.N. denied access to Guantanamo inmates

November 1, 2005

Today, U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld renewed his denial to grant a United Nations commission access to inmates at the Guantánamo Bay detention center. Last week the United States offered to let United Nations representatives visit the detention center, but they refused to let United Nations representatives visit the entire detention facility or interview detainees.

The United Nation's Special Rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, told reporters on Monday that even China does not impose such conditions for United Nations visit of detention centers and that the United Nations could not accept an offer to visit the United States facility under conditions that are different from other nations. Nowak did show willingness to compromise on other controversial questions as the duration of the visit, which is limited to one day, and which individual United Nations representatives would be involved in the visit.

The United States has voiced objections to two of the proposed team of five United Nations inspectors: Leandro Despouy, Special Rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers, and Paul Hunt, Special Rapporteur on the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health. Paul Hunt in particular has expressed strong suspicion of torture having occurred in Guantánamo. Those approved include Nowak from Austria in position as Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, Asma Jahangir from Pakistan as Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, and Leila Zerrougui from Algeria as Chairperson-Rapporteur of the Working Group on arbitrary detention.

The United Nations has been requesting access to the naval base for four years. The United States has explained that the restrictions placed on the UN visit are due to the nature of the ongoing War on Terrorism.


text:
Category:November 1, 2005

de:Kategorie:01.11.2005 es:Categoría:1 de noviembre de 2005 fr:Catégorie:1er novembre 2005 it:Categoria:1 novembre 2005 ja:Category:2005年11月1日 pl:Kategoria:1 listopada 2005 pt:Categoria:1 de novembro de 2005

title: Category:November 1, 2005


text:
US Senate meets in private session

November 1, 2005

The United States Senate met behind closed doors on Tuesday under pressure to investigate the intelligence that led to the war in. The rare parliamentary rule invoked by the Democrats forces the removal of all media, staff, and tourists from the chamber. Congress will stop working on legislation temporarily.

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid stated that a private session was justified by the fact that the indictment of Lewis Libby showed how the administration manipulated the intelligence in order to justify the War on Iraq. President made his case on the war by citing U.S. intelligence showed Iraq with the possessions of weapons of mass destruction. Both the U.N. weapon inspector team and the U.S. military found no such weapons.

Conservatives saw the unusual maneuver as a ploy to distract the public from President Bush's recent nomination of to the  and dismissed the investigation, which has been in the news over the past several days with the resignation of Vice President Cheney's aide  after the disclosure that Libby lied under oath about leaking information that would provocate war between Iraq and the U.S.

title: US Senate meets in private session


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Talk:US Senate meets in private session

Development issues
This is a great start for an article, however there are a few things which need to be addressed:
 * Wikinews does not do bylines. Please see the styleguide.
 * Generally, use more than one source, both to corroborate the factual statements and to avoid being informed by only one point of view.
 * Strive for balance: this article really close to achieving that, however it appears to "blame" the Democrats for the closed door session, and presents an argument from their adversary Republicans which actually accounts for 59% of the words in the article.
 * Basic accuracy, spelling and grammar - points for your english as the only thing which jumps out at me is the name "Libby", not Liddy. However, Mr Libby is alleged to have lied under oath, for which he has been indicted, but it's not a fact that he did so yet. Other fact-checking should probably take place before the article is published. - Amgine / talk 23:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:US Senate meets in private session


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User:Fuzheado

Andrew Lih is the Wikimedia Strategist at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

For years he was a journalism professor at the University of Hong Kong Journalism and Media Studies Centre, and researched participatory journalism on blogs and wikis. His interests include Internet culture, Asia regional issues and politics. His articles have been published in Yale Global, The Standard (Hong Kong), Jakarta Post, among others, and he's been a commentator on CNN, BBC, MSNBC and National Public Radio (United States).

He was the first accredited Wikinews reporter, back in 2005 when he covered the WTO conference in Hong Kong.

title: User:Fuzheado


text:
User:Mrmiscellanious/Blocked2

You have been blocked temporarily for [ this action] by you on the following page: . Your block will be up within . I suggest you look at our style guide during your inaccessible period to amend your methods of editing Wikinews. If you wish to speak with me directly, contact can be made by my talk page or contact can be made instantly via the IRC chat room.

title: User:Mrmiscellanious/Blocked2


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Talk:ASIO settle out of court, wrongful detention case

delayed report
 If the new laws were brought in and it was an issue of preventative detention no probably not, no,he said

'' If it's an issue of an ASIO warrant, under section 34d of the ASIO Act, no, you wouldn't and the Government's got to be scrutinised for all of its actions and if they make a mistake they should be held accountable, he said. '' appears to be a delayed report from the previous the Government's got to be scrutinised for all of its actions and if they make a mistake they should be held accountable, he said. Maybe the news outlets had to seek legal advice or they are stringing the new out. But i am unsure if these comment are from the same interview --Whywhywhy 00:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

what more to be published?
iv been looking at other articles to see what standards need to be meet to be published and this one goes beyond half the others in the australia section. Could you please make some suggestions. Also i am not sure how to handdle the see also added not by me but it does look untidy --Whywhywhy 01:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * There are no hard-and-fast rules. Unless someone has raised a specific conern with the article that is yet to be addressed, you should publish if you think it is ready. If someone disagrees they will unpublish. Good work on this article, by the way. - Borofkin 01:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course, when I say there are no hard-and-fast rules, I am assuming that in your opinion the article meets the standards laid down in Writing_an_article, especially neutral point of view. - Borofkin 01:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Excessive use of quotes
I feel this article is missing a ton of information and is instead held up by the numerous, unformatted quotes in the article. Therefore, I have pulled it from publish in order for it to be developed for a while in order for these items to be addressed. --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 03:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * "I feel this article is missing a ton of information" - can you be more specific? "unformatted quotes in the article." - can you elaborate on where the problem lies with the quoting? The article is about half description and half quotes, and all blocks of quotes are preceeded by a sentence or two providing context. I'm not saying that the article is comprehensive, but I don't see why it should be sent back to Develop. - Borofkin 03:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, first of all - What is ASIO? What do they do?  What are some responses from some of the organizers?  There is speculation of the bill's actions on the article - that is opinion.  The quotes are dryly put in the article - are not maching up with any paragraphs explaining items.  Formatting is a huge issue with this one, as well.  Develop more.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 03:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I've broken up all the issues below so they can be discussed separately. Thanks for taking the time to take a look at this article... I'm not trying to make things hard for you - I genuinely don't understand some of the issues you have raised. - Borofkin 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, first of all - What is ASIO? What do they do
This information has now been added to the article. - Borofkin 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

What are some responses from some of the organizers?
Errrm... organisers of what? - Borofkin 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Erm... what are they called? Heads of the organization?  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 04:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, so you mean what is the response of ASIO and the Federal government to the out-of-court settlement? I can try and find something, but I'd be suprised if there was any. Because details of the settlement are secret, I suspect that both organisations are saying little. - Borofkin 04:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, the appropriate thing to do in this case is tag it as NPOV, isn't it? I think that an NPOV tag is much clearer than moving it back to develop, even with comments on the talk page. - Borofkin 04:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, I don't see the point in tagging articles in publish. If they have issues they need to work out, they should be in develop stage.  Publish should be as finalized as most articles get, requiring only minor edits.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 13:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I searched all the online articles in relation to this case and ASIO has not made any public comment in any of them

--Whywhywhy 06:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

There is speculation of the bill's actions on the article - that is opinion
All opinions in the article are attributed to people, except perhaps for the last sentence, which should probably be deleted. - Borofkin 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC) The last line is a netural point i saw and not opinionated i dont see it as making anyone look good or bad. Seeing the article is directly related to me the writter i thought it was resonable to make the point. But i dont mind if its in their or not.

 * All the rest of the speculations are quoted and were reported by the australian broadcasting corporation which are responsable to the government as a government funded group to follow strict bipartisan reporting guidelines and my article containt more detail then thier articles --Whywhywhy 06:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

The quotes are dryly put in the article - are not maching up with any paragraphs explaining items
There are three blocks of quotes, and each one has a preceeding sentence which provides context. Do you think that these should be expanded, or something? - Borofkin 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Very much so. It would be nice to form the quotes into paragraphs with the context and details also in the same paragraph.  It makes for a much more organized, easier-to-follow article.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 04:03, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

If i had of added to much context to the quotes i would have been considered to be adding to speculating myself which i have already been accused of. --Whywhywhy 06:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Formatting is a huge issue with this one, as well
My thoughts here are the same as for Makybe Diva wins the Melbourne Cup: If you think this is the case then in my opinion you should use the "cleanup" tag rather than the "develop" tag. However, I don't think the problems you have identified are particularly obvious, and I think that in the time you spend tagging and explaining, you could probably have fixed the issue yourself. It seems much more efficient than trying to explain it all to someone else, you will then probably only see some of the problems that you see. - Borofkin 03:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * "Cleanup" is for developing articles requiring MUCH attention. Having an article published and tagged with "cleanup" doesn't make any sense at all.  All articles that require major edits (aside from minor spelling, punctuation, grammar errors) should be placed in developing stage.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 04:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Publish now
I think the article is ready and consensus is for publishing, as --Whywhywhy did. I support it. Neutralizer 14:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
Gomery report on Sponsorship Program released

November 2, 2005

Justice John Gomery has released a preliminary report into Canada's Sponsorship Program, which was run from 1996 to 2003 by the federal Public Works Department to win support for federalism in Quebec. The program has recently come under fire for allegedly scandalous practices and has been accused of being a front to reward Liberal Party supporters.

The issue came to a head in the spring of 2002, when the Globe and Mail, using Canada's Access to Information Act, discovered that $550,000 had been paid to Groupaction Marketing for a report that could not be located.

Former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien then ordered Auditor General Sheila Fraser to look into the matter, who promptly launched a full investigation with assistance from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In 2004, Fraser's audit was released and found that over $100 million was incorrectly paid to communications agencies rather than for social and cultural events which was the original intention of the program.

According to Fraser, officials "broke just about every rule in the book."

Under intense criticism from both the public and opposition parties Prime Minister Paul Martin launched a public inquiry into the scandal which was to be headed by Justice Gomery.

The report found evidence of political involvement in the handling of the program, and found an "implicit link between the contributions and the expectation that the government contracts would be awarded."

The report also claims that Chrétien holds some personal responsibility for the mismanagement. "Since Mr. Chretien chose to run the program from his own office," the report reasoned "he is accountable for the defective manner in which the sponsorship program and initiatives were implemented."

Among those accused of wrongdoing are Jean Pelletier (Chrétien's former chief of staff), Chuck Guité (the bureaucrat in charge the program), Jacques Corriveau (president of PluriDesign Canada), and Jean Brault (president of Groupaction).


title: File:2November2005.pdf


title: File:2November2005.sxw


text:
Talk:U.N. denied access to Guantanamo inmates

Mrmiscellanious, the full inclusion of the position of Nowak is necessary to maintain consistency as the full positions of the other participants are provided as described by the UNOG release cited as source. His full position is precisely Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Also, the information regarding China that you removed is included in the German language article listed in the source. Read it, if language understood, otherwise that line is provided here and an effort at translation to English, below. If removal of the information was done knowing this, please explain justification as I believe it describes part of the essential background for understanding the events reported on here. The information is directly described as said by Nowak (the article also favors the shortened form as you have done of his title in first use here, so I will list the full position where other participants positions are described).

 * And if you don't read German, here is an English langauge source: http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1059064.php/Rumsfeld_says_U.N._officials_will_not_be_given_access_to_detainees
 * "Manfred Nowak, the U.N. special envoy on torture, said their visit was limited to one day - December 6 - and criticized the United States for a maintaining a standard lower than China in terms of openness when it comes to Guantanamo."
 * --vonbergm 04:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Selbst China stelle für Besuche in seinen Gefängnissen keine solchen Bedingungen, sagte der UN-Sonderberichterstatter für Folter, Manfred Nowak, am Montag (Ortszeit) in New York. "Sie (die USA) sagen, sie hätten nichts zu verbergen. Warum wird es uns dann nicht erlaubt, mit den Gefangenen zu sprechen?", fragte er.

Even China places no such conditions for visits into its prisons, said the UN-Special Correspondent (Ed. Rapporteur) on torture, Manfred Nowak, in New York on Monday (local time). "You (the USA) say you have nothing to conceal. Why is it not permitted for us to speak with the prisoners?", he asked.

Addendum, I suppose also that the modifications of making definitive fact those matters that are only presently desired by the US were done out of desire to reduce the "dry" character you identified, but I believe this should be minimised in the article's development for the sake of its accuracy.

 * Please sign your comments. That really irritates me when people don't.  Anyways, I find the China part a bit irrelevant at the least in this article, unless you were wanting to push a POV of implicating opinion.  I see absolutely no reason to include the reference to China at all.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 03:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Apologies, sign not considered at all. What makes it POV to include information on the uniform standard by providing precisely the content of Nowak's comment on it? We are not censors, we simply report the information. As to revert, restore the second as I removed the offending information with notice immediately upon notice of your former response but left my other modification including full title in second reference in it. 68.210.70.211 03:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The reason to include the China reference is to put the conditions set for the visit into international perspective.

 * Some of your other edits make the article factually wrong. For example, the United Nations representatives were granted permissions to visit the base. But not the ENTIRE base, i.e. the United States reserves the right to decide which parts of the facility the representatives may visit, and which once they may not. Please read the sources more carefully before making changes beyond spelling, grammar and the like (which are appreciated!) --vonbergm 04:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I added the "China" info back into the article. --vonbergm 06:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Publishing?
I would like very much to publish this article, but as yet, can find no accurate sources representing the government's refusal to allow the UN visit. It appears that the objection is based on the fact that the UN would be expected to publish its findings where the ICRC deals with government confidentially -- if that is in fact the reason, then I cannot help but be critical of the government in this situation. I'm searching for sources outlining some more concrete objection to the visit... Anybody got anything? I understand that, at this point, this article doesn't accurately represent the government's POV and really can't be published. --Chiacomo (talk) 04:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I must agree with you. Apart from the Red Cross reference (which does not make sense to me) the only thing I found was the German language reference: "Das Verbot von Gesprächen mit Häftlingen begründen die USA damit, dass sie sich "im Kriegszustand" befänden. Gemeint ist der Krieg gegen den internationalen Terrorismus."
 * Rough translation: "The USA justified its refusal to let the representatives talk to the detainees by arguing that they are presently 'at war' [i.e. war on terror."

--vonbergm 06:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Found another link: http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-01-voa48.cfm "A Pentagon spokesman said the conditions for the visit would be similar to those for members of the U.S. Congress and the media who have visited the facility, and noted that this is an exception to the Defense Department's long-standing policy of having the International Committee of the Red Cross as the only international organization allowed to send inspectors to Guantanamo." 'Long standing' cannot mean anything but '4 years'. I guess the argument is that 'it has always (always=4 years) been that way'. Not really convincing....

One other interesting item that same article seems to say that that decision was made somewhere high up in the government. Rumsfeld is quoted: "I'm not involved in the decision," he added. "That is a decision that the government of the United States has got to address because it's a precedent that applies across the government." --vonbergm 06:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I have done another extensive search through google news and came up with no other (better) reason for US refusal. What if there was no other reason given? Can the article then not be published because of this? Going to bed now, maybe someone else can resolve this. --vonbergm 07:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Modified the last sentence to reflect the reason given by US administration. This is the only US POV to be found after extensive searching, i.e. looking at Rumsfeld's statements during press conference and administration statements. Can't hold back story just because US administration does not offer clearer POV. --vonbergm 18:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
Sydney residents protest anti-terror laws

November 2, 2005

A small group of people gathered in protest outside the New South Wales Parliament in Sydney, Australia at midday. The group was protesting the proposed Anti-Terrorism Bill, calling upon Premier Iemma not to support the laws. The protest was organised by the New South Wales Greens and was addressed by several speakers, including Lee Rhiannon, an elected Greens parliamentarian from the New South Wales Legislative Council.

One protester carried a placard which read: "Terrorism Laws=Fascism!" She compared the proposed legislation to the 1933 German Enabling Act, saying "It is the most basic rule of democracy is that you have the right to legal representation and Hitler took that away, that was Habeas corpus as it was called, in 1933 legislation and from that moment on thats when everything began. They could remove people, anyone who objected anyone who was a witness, anyone who tried to find out what happened could also be removed."

"John Howard's terror law would not make Australia safer", Lee Rhiannon said in her speech, "They will not stop a London style bombing occurring in Australia and that's what we need to remember. This is another one of John Howards's lies. Let's remember weapons of mass destruction, (and) children overboard."

The Australian government introduced anti-terror laws after September 11, and has sought to extend those laws in the wake of the London train bombings.

The government claimed in a media release today that it has this week received specific information about a terrorist threat to Australia.

"The Government has received specific intelligence and police information this week which gives cause for serious concern about a potential terrorist threat. The detail of this intelligence has been provided to the Leader of the Opposition and the Shadow Minister for Homeland Security," the release said.

The government claims that the new bill is intended to improve the ability of intelligence services and the police to counter this threat.

"The Government is satisfied on the advice provided to it that the immediate passage of this bill would strengthen the capacity of law enforcement agencies to effectively respond to this threat," the release said.

Dr Andrew Lynch, Project Director of the Terrorism and Law project at the Gilbert & Tobin Centre of Public Law, has said that Rhiannon has raised some valid issues regarding some of the provisions in the proposed legislation.

"It is difficult to see how many of [the provisions] will enhance our security. For example, the bans on free speech will only drive inciting and hateful messages under ground which must make the job of security forces harder in identifying real threats. The restrictions on family members knowing about the detention of their children is not conceivably going to improve our safety. There is a lot to be said for the view that depriving people of their liberty on the basis only of 'reasonable suspicion' might well fuel feelings of alienation amongst some groups which could be harnessed by extremists," Dr Lynch said.


text:
Australian Treasury related agencies spend 17000 AUD on massages in 2004

November 2, 2005

Australian agencies under the responsibility of the federal Treasurer, Peter Costello, spent approximately $17,000 AUD on massage services in 2004, namely the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) and the Australian Securities and Investments Commission (ASIC).

The Australian Labor Party member Christopher Bowen asked the Treasurer for details on massage services in a question on notice, and received the answer on October 31.

637 ASIC staff made use of massages, compared with only 50 in the ABS, who however spent more on massages than ASIC. ABS staff paid $15 for 15 minutes and $10 for 10 minutes, while ASIC staff paid only $10.86 per massage.


text:
Talk:Sydney residents protest anti-terror laws

Original reporting
this is an eye-witness report, i collected audio and photographic material at the demonstration - unsigned comment by User:59.167.34.132

Expert opinion
I've emailed some Sydney academics to seek their opinion on the protest and quotes. - Borofkin 06:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I have received the following comment from Dr Andrew Lynch, Project Director of the Terrorism and Law project at the Gilbert & Tobin Centre of Public Law, University of New South Wales. The comment is in response to the quote in the article from Lee Rhiannon.

 * "I think Rhiannon has a point about many of the provisions. It is difficult to see how many of them will enhance our security. For example, the bans on free speech will only drive inciting and hateful messages under ground which must make the job of security forces harder in identifying real threats. The restrictions on family members knowing about the detention of their children is not conceivably going to improve our safety. There is a lot to be said for the view that depriving people of their liberty on the basis only of 'reasonable suspicion' might well fuel feelings of alienation amongst some groups which could be harnessed by extremists." - Dr Andrew Lynch

Neutrality
We need to include something about the governments position - i.e. why does the government think that the anti-terror laws are a good thing? - Borofkin 06:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've added some of the governments claims from a press release. Whaddaya think? - Borofkin 06:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't get it.

A person commits an offence if the person does any act in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act. Penalty: Imprisonment for life

That isn't the proposed law, it's the current law. http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pasteact/1/686/0/PA001860.htm

Why then do we need urgent action to extend the law?

Regards, BenAveling 09:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Peculiar edit of direct quote
I'm very interested in this edit. Why has the direct quote changed? How was the quote recorded? i.e. was it tape recorded, or did you make notes, or did you put it into Wikinews from memory? - Borofkin 06:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I recorded it with an flash disk/mp3 player, but the device is very simple and it is not easy to transcribe from because of difficulities navigating through the recording. Also, I am unable to play the files on my computer as I do not have the software for the proprietary format used in the voice recording files. The quote was initially incomplete and I was unable to get back to that position quickly to finish it--CitizenBruce 09:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * No worries, just thought I'd ask. Great work on this article... I know how much work goes into original reporting. - Borofkin 22:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Great breaking news story
Publishing now. Neutralizer 14:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * sorry; didn't realize it was already published. Neutralizer 14:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

front page feature box
The front page feature box says that demonstration occurred on Tuesday. This is incorrect. The demonstration was Wednesday November 2, Sydney time --CitizenBruce 00:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Fixed. - Borofkin 01:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Need a category?
I'm seeing a lot of related stories on the terror bill. I'd like to see them linked together in some way.

I'm new to wikinews. Can we create a new category, or is there some other way to achieve the same end?

Regards, BenAveling 06:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The easiest solution would be to add a "Related stories" section to the connected articles and then listing the related articles. Specialized categories such as "Australian anti-terror legislation" are generally frowned upon as being to specialized. Such categories also have a habit of being accused of being POV -- though I'm not sure, personally, if a category is POV simply because the stories grouped by it exhibit a certain POV. Similar categories have recently been proposed for deletion and were in fact deleted.

 * Practice seems to indicate that "top level" categories are used most often where specialized categories often are used a few times and then forgotten. One editor has suggested that specialized categories such as "Spoonistan lottery scandal" (a fictional example) are not news categories, but rather, are encylopedia categories. Generally, I tend to agree.

 * As you may have noticed, categories are often used to create DPL "info boxes". I notice this story has both the category "Australia" and "Politics and conflicts". If one were to create a DPL info box combining these two categories, one would likely be presented with a group of stories that included the anti-terror stories. This would require, of course, that all appropriate stories are categorized using those particular cats. --Chiacomo (talk) 06:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * One could argue that a category such as "Australian 2005 anti-terror legislation" would be similar to categories such as Category:2005-07-07 London bombings, in that they both collate articles related to a single event: in the first case the passing of a particular piece of legislation, and in the second case a bombing. - Borofkin 06:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * You're quite right, of course. One could easily argue for the deletion of the London bombing category based on the arguments used for other recent category deletions. I won't speculate on the support for or opposition to an Austrialian anti-terror category. I suspect there would be strong opposition to deleting the London bombing category. --Chiacomo (talk) 06:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You say that "specialized categories often are used a few times and then forgotten." That sounds true. But is it bad? Especially if specialised categories are sub-types of general categories. Regards, BenAveling 06:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
US state of Kansas in battle over "Intelligent Design" in education

November 2, 2005

Tempers are flaring in the U.S. state of Kansas, where a school board may be on the verge of passing a measure to require that Intelligent Design be taught in public school science classes.

Christian political activists such as Reverend Jerry Johnston of First Family Church in Overland Park Kansas are supporting the effort to shape Kansas science standards according to religious beliefs. Johnston said, "Getting intelligent design into school curricula is the worthiest cause of our time and the key to reversing the country's moral decline."

In an apparent attempt to make the inclusion of Intelligent Design into the curriculum seem foolish, "believers" in the Flying Spaghetti Monster are lobbying the Kansas school board, calling for it to require that creation by the Flying Spaghetti Monster be taught alongside Darwinism and Intelligent Design.

Bobby Henderson, the creator of "pastafarianism", said "I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms… One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence."

Several members of the Kansas Board of Education have already indicated that they might vote in favor of such an initiative. Board member Carol Rupe wrote, "The new version (of science standards) changes the very definition of science from 'seeking natural explanations' to 'seeking logical explanations.' That is why I think FSMism is able to be included. It is as 'logical' as any other theory."

In 1999, Kansas also wrote Creationism, a precursor of Intelligent Design, into the public school curriculum. A later school board, however, overturned that directive.


text: File:Woman NSWprotest 20051102.png

title: File:Woman NSWprotest 20051102.png


text:
User talk:CitizenBruce

Image:Woman NSWprotest 20051102.png
Excellent photo! there are, however, a couple of problems with hosting images on Wikinews. If the image is freely licensed (CC-by, GFDL, BSD, and so on), the image should be hosted at http://commons.wikimedia.org which allows all the Wikinews editions to link to the image. If the image is not freely licensed, then Wikinews may only use it if it qualifies under our fair use/fair dealing policy - which strictly limits the kinds of images we may host. It also requires a link to the source for the image, and the appropriate licensure tag.

If you can update the image with this information it would be really great. And thanks for helping out here! - Amgine / talk 05:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

In regards to speeches
I'm very glad you uploaded thoose speeches, I feel they add to the article. however I need to know the Source and copyright of them to make sure they follow under our policy for media. Thank you. Happy editing. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:53, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Well I can only say that I recorded them at a public open air protest meeting. To me it is common sense that speeches made in such a context are intended to be heard by as many people as possible and as such the notion of "fair use" seems appropriate. To what extent this "common sense" view might be moderated by any legal considerations is something that I couldn't comment on. To me, it is clear from the context of the speeches that they are being made to the public and that presenting the full speech maintains the integrity of the speech and serves the intentions of the speaker to a greater extent than presenting only extracts would. How does this fit in with the policy context in your view? --CitizenBruce 07:03, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Forsberg article
Hi, you wrote "Very poor article. What is a "hat trick"? What sport is being played? The writer seems to have no awareness that he or she is addressing an international audience who may not necessarily share the same interests. --CitizenBruce 20:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC)" on this, and I think this is the guy's first article contribution to Wikinews. I'm not a sports person at all, and I know some of the things that may be an issue if you don't share the same "sports jargon" as the author, so whilst I agree with the points you made, you were perhaps as blunt as I've been on some things recently. :) Any chance you could make some suggestions about what to wikilink to and how to do so on the guy's talk page? Brian McNeil / talk 22:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Australian Portal
Hi CitizenBruce.... haven't heard from you in a while.... just letting you know that I've comletely redone the Australian Portal - it now displays articles grouped into days, the same as on the main page, and has a lead article. We can set our own standards on the Aussie portal - for example, we could ditch the whole "develop" and "publish" stages if we wanted to, or we could create an "australia-publish" stage, that would cause the article to appear as published on the Australian Portal, but not on the Main Page. Articles are still in the main namespace, however, and still have to be NPOV. Anyway, let me know what you think on the Australian discussion page. - Borofkin 23:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:CitizenBruce


text: File:Lee Rhiannon NSWprotest 20051102.jpg


text:
Anti-terror amendments to be rushed through Australian parliament because of new 'potential threats'

November 2, 2005

New terror amendments are to be rushed through Australian Federal Parliament based on new threats recently revealed by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). The government claimed in a media release today that it has this week received specific information about a terrorist threat to Australia.

"The Government has received specific intelligence and police information this week which gives cause for serious concern about a potential terrorist threat. The detail of this intelligence has been provided to the Leader of the Opposition and the Shadow Minister for Homeland Security," the release said.

The government claims that the new bill is intended to improve the ability of intelligence services and the police to counter this threat.

"The Government is satisfied on the advice provided to it that the immediate passage of this bill would strengthen the capacity of law enforcement agencies to effectively respond to this threat," the release said.

The opposition leader, Kim Beazley, has been briefed by the Prime Minister on the nature of the threat, and has pledged that Labor will support the amendments.

The amendments are separate to the proposed anti-terror legislation.

Some commentators noted that the nation's security alert level had not been escalated as a result of the new information and remained at "medium" and a subsequent interview with the Attorney-General, Philip Ruddock on Lateline appeared to indicate that there was in fact no information about a specific imminent threat.

Greens' Senator Bob Brown noted that there are already laws that could deal with a specific imminent threat: "Whoever these unnamed people are, they can be arrested, they can be interrogated for up to seven days, they can be charged under the current crimes act." he said.

The government has a track record of presenting misleading information to the public for political ends as in the infamous children overboard affair when refugees where vilified by ministers of the Australian government, including the Prime Minister, on the basis of false evidence.


text:
User talk:211.28.113.209

Welcome
211.28.113.209, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! - Borofkin 06:21, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:211.28.113.209


text:
User:Ruennsheng

Hello! Welcome to my userpage!!!

title: User:Ruennsheng


text:
UK work secretary David Blunkett resigns

November 2, 2005

David Blunkett, the United Kingdom's Work and Pensions Secretary, resigned following a meeting with Prime Minister Tony Blair today.

Public pressure had been growing on Mr. Blunkett to resign after revelations emerged that he had broken the British Ministerial Code of Conduct in relation to his large shareholdings and short-lived directorship in a company called DNA Bioscience. It is the second time Blunkett's has been forced to stand down from office, having previously stepped down as home secretary last year over claims that his office fast-tracked a visa application.

A member of the opposition Liberal Democrat party, Greg Mulholland said "I think he's done the right thing [in quitting], having done several quite blatantly wrong things". In an interview with the Sheffield Star yesterday, Blunkett declared that he would not resign, insisting that he had "done nothing wrong."

Blunkett's replacement was named as John Hutton, previously Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.


text:
Talk:US state of Kansas in battle over "Intelligent Design" in education

NPOV
The first paragraph needs to be rewritten. Not to mention, the article as a whole is quite bad in terms of formatting and detailing. There could be a little more background information about this subject, and the organization of this article could also be improved.

--MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 11:43, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Not sure what is wrong with the sentence you quoted. Since you didn't say what part you object to, I am guessing you think the word "demand" is too strong ?  I changed it to "vote for".  As for the NPOV issue, both views are included, as is required by the NPOV policy.  Here is the Conservative POV quote:

 * "Getting intelligent design into school curricula is the worthiest cause of our time and the key to reversing the country's moral decline."

 * The level of detail is necessarily low since this article was split off of another article. To avoid duplication, that means each article now has roughly half the original detail.  The remaining detail is available via the "See also" link to the other article.  However, if you have more detail, please add it.

 * What is wrong with the format ?

 * StuRat 14:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * MrM,  . This article doesn't appear to have a glaring POV (and if it does, it's not been pointed out here). If the style is bad, fix it. It's not horrible enough to render the article unpublishible. I've removed the tags and republished. --Chiacomo  (talk) 15:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Support comments and republishing action by Chiacomo . Neutralizer 18:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Support. StuRat 16:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I have to agree with MrM. The story seems very weighted to make Creationism seem foolish. As legitimate a critique as that is, it's POV. This line, "The new version (of science standards) changes the very definition of science from 'seeking natural explanations' to 'seeking logical explanations.' That is why I think FSMism is able to be included. It is as 'logical' as any other theory," needs to be elaborated on. What was Rupe's original position on Creationism? Is she stating that she would seriously consider voting for it? Or is she against the teaching of Creationism and is making a facetious statement? You also might want to include a statement by Pope John Paul II when he spoke to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1996 where he said evolution was an essential subject and of interest to the Church. --Wolfrider 16:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * That quote from the Pope sounds more about teaching evolution in religous schools than teaching religion in secuar schools. A pic from the pro-Intelligent design lobby might solve the "balance" issue, but so far we can't find any.  Do you know of any we could use ? StuRat 17:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Also note that some anti-Intelligent Design info was left out, to make it more balanced. An example is "Intelligent Falling", the theory that since we can't prove that gravity exists, we should all believe that God is pushing everyone down.  See the "saucy" source for more info on this. StuRat 17:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Wolfrider, I have to disagree with you characterizing that the article is "weighted". Including more quotes from ID people will not make it better! Moreover, Creationism is (luckily) not up for debate right now. Also not sure why that sentence needs elaboration. The distinction between "natural explanation" and "logical explanation" is quite clear, as in this dichotomy "logical explanation" includes "supernatural explanation", as long as the explanation follows logically from first premises (i.e. that some "intelligent designer" guided evolution or the FSM created the world). Also, given the nature of FSM there is not much room for misunderstanding the statement and intention of Rupe. Statements of John Paul supporting evolution have been partially contradicted by statements of Ratzinger, so including Pope statements will make this a lot more complicated. --vonbergm 18:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

other than the spaghetti monster
... it should be pointed out that many serious religions believe in organic growth of the Universe, not deliberate design. In most Animist societies the world grows spontaneously, without an engineer. In Norse mythology, the world is built by the gods from the members of a slain giant, and the first human beings are licked from a salt stone by a cow. The hypothesis of "intelligent design" blatantly contradicts most of earth's most time-honoured traditions and beliefs. It is unclear why a random Iron Age Hebrew tale should have precedence in 21st century curricula over, say, the Edda, or the Enuma Elish. 81.63.50.227 15:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Quite right. Once you open the door to teaching non-scientific concepts (those which can't be tested), you end up with an infinite variety of silliness which will then demand equal time, the GSM included. StuRat 16:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Because your 'random Iron Age Hebrew tale' happens to be the most widely believed in religion in the world today. Seeing as so many people believe in it, it seems fair enough to teach it in schools. What's the point in teaching something hardly anyone believes is true? If, however, a substantial number of educated people believe something is true, it seems reasonable enough to teach it, at least as an alternative to Darwinism.

 * Christianity may be the largest religion, but far from a majority of people believe in it, worldwide. It's inclusion in the classroom would therefore beg for the inclusion of the other major world religions, and you might as well toss in a few minority religions, too, like FSM. Also, the fact that many poeple believe something isn't much of an argument, as the majority is frequently wrong, as when they thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. The name of the logical fallacy of believing that the majority is always correct is an appeal to the majority. StuRat 22:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * This is a reminder that the article talk pages are here to provide a place where brainstorming discussion of ideas and viewpoints can flourish and sometimes unleash energies and thoughts which can serve the production of better articles...i.e. free speech and free thought are good things and this is the place for them to be expressed in relation to the associated articles. Neutralizer 21:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

--vonbergm 21:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * MrM is right in that this is a side discussion and slightly off target. But that does not mean that it has no space here. Different people have different views on the direction the article should be heading, and this discussion is merely exploring such a direction. So to address the point: The article right now focuses on the debate of science, i.e. explanation using natural phenomena, and the proposed Kansas standards which allow for supernatural explanations, under which tales and myths can be subsumed. The reason the FSM plays so prominently here is not that it is a serious alternative to ID or of historical and cultural significance as some other ideas mentioned above, but that it is useful to expose the problems with the approach toward science that Kansas is taking. Its power is that it is entirely ridiculous. Suggesting that other creation myths should be taught means accepting the fundamental premise that ID is founded on: giving up the foundations of science.

 * I was commenting on "what is the FSM doing in this article". The FSM is designed to piss off creationists, and is needlessly poisoning the debate. I think that the history of religion, including Biblical history, Judeo-Christian religions etc. should be taught in school. Also, the Edda, and other myths are certainly deserving of study. This is not the same as saying "then we'd have to study the FSM too". The former are a subject known as "science of religions", a field of humanities. The latter is at best a recent issue of pop culture and US politico-religious landscape. Therefore, I do think my comment was relevant to the article. You want to put creationism into perspective? Point out that it is part of the humanities, don't point to the FSM. You make the nerds chuckle, but you discredit wn as a news source. "Intelligent Design" can be discussed in terms of philosophy and theology. It is well worth reading what the church fathers have to say about it. It should obviously just never be mistaken as part of the field of natural science, and certainly not as an "alternative to Darwinism", because it isn't. Whoever suggests such a thing has understood neither Darwin nor Augustine. Augustine cannot any more replace Darwin than Darwin can replace Augustine. 81.63.124.173 21:56, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I disagree on the pupose of FSM. It is a serious attempt to point out the fallacy of allowing religion into the science classroom.  If it manages to piss off a few Creationists in the process, that's just a bonus. StuRat 22:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * What you say is essentially true. But what is obvious to you is NOT obvious to the Kansas School Board and the only point of discussion here: ID in the SCIENCE classroom. FSM's purpose is to illuminate why this is a problem. And it does a good job at that. --vonbergm 22:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * No, FSM is quite reasonable on the same grounds as religion. Whats true is that neither belongs in a science class, but you won't be able to logically include one without including both.  No, FSM is not designed to piss off creationists, its designed to make their kids stop believing in "Santa Clause for Adults" period, any pissing off effect is incidental.  - 134.214.102.33 15:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, the point is to turn children away from their ancestors religion!

 * If we don't want them prosthletyzing our kids, let's not say we want to do it to theirs. The point is to keep science scientific, not change anyone's religion. Anonymous


text:
Talk:Court rules in favour of record labels, Kazaa found illegal

Later Date
when are the damages to be considered ?--Whywhywhy 12:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Australian Treasury related agencies spend 17000 AUD on massages in 2004

This is a very interesting story and not reported in the traditional news media as far as I am aware. Surely the one of the points of Wikinews is that there is opportunity to bring to light stories that might otherwise go unreported --CitizenBruce 12:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Wacky News
Its funny. I can see why you put it to develop mr Mrmiscellanious because it was sitting in the political section iv edited it so it should appear in wacky news. Which generally doesnt have a point but to be funny. Whywhywhy 12:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * This is not "Wacky". It is a serious point about disclosing expenditure within the Australian government. It is a big news day in Australia, but this little item is of interest to Australians who want to be informed about how the government is spending their money --CitizenBruce 12:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Large organisation often give massages to staff. This story belongs on today tonight or wackynews its not serious in its current contexts. Keeping staff relaxed is important and can increase productivity and all that sort of gargon. If you are going to report such a thing wheres the other sides point of view? Reasons and so forth.--Whywhywhy 12:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I can see where you are coming from but to some extent you are adding a layer of interpretation that is not intrinsic to the story itself which after all seems to be a bare statement of fact. The bottom line is that I find it genuinely interesting piece of news and it might be considered that the extent to which a government department should provide such services might indeed be debatable (hence the question in the house). --CitizenBruce 18:43, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * $17000 is not such a large amount of money to make this a big scandal. Not even on and Australian scale. Businesses offer their employees lunch-time massages to increase morale and productivity. From the reporting I have no reason to believe that somethings else went on here. This is "wacky" news at this point, unless you can provide more detail showing that there is more to the story. And please fix the spelling (grammar) mistake in the title! --vonbergm 19:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * There article makes no suggestion of a scandal. It is just a small item of interest, not "wacky" just an item of interest. The government agencies are subject to scrutiny and here we see some reporting of this disclosure. --CitizenBruce 19:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Still, I agree it is an interesting point about what constitutes "news". Perhaps it is a very small story but I still found it of interest. --CitizenBruce 19:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

On second thoughts, looking at Content_guide, perhaps this story does not qualify as of interest to wide international audience (though in Australian context perhaps of minor interest). --CitizenBruce 19:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It's much better now. Thanks for removing that stuff.  Wackynews is a great thing here on Wikinews, but just remember it should always adhere to the other policies as well :)  --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 21:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I intended it to be in the "funny file" (as I mentioned in the original edit comment), but I didn't have enough time to go chase down exactly what the category was called. I laughed out loud when I read it -- lucky I did, since I don't normally read the Questions on Notice. Dysprosia 01:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
At least thirty-three more dead in Ethiopia election clashes

November 2, 2005

At least thirty-three more people have died in a second day of protests in Addis Ababa, the capital of Ethiopia. Reuters put the figure at twenty-three.

According to incoming reports police forces opened fire on stone-throwing youths who were engaged in protest.

The protests were called in reaction to the results of the parliamentary elections held in May which many opposition figures maintain were rigged. When the election results were first declared in June riots erupted in which 36 people died.

The latest series of protests come as the parliamentary session is scheduled to begin. The opposition party, the called the protest and refused to take their seats until new and transparently organised elections are held, and mass arrests of opposition activists cease. The party said that six of its top officials, including chairman Hailu Shawel and vice-chairman Berhanu Nega, had been detained.

30 taxi drivers who took part in demonstrations against the parliamentary elections were arrested and had their licenses revoked.

Authorities have jailed at least two journalists and increased censorship of media coverage of anti-government protests, reports the. On 2 November, police arrested two editors and a reporter from the independent Amharic-language weekly Hadar. Many other journalists have gone into hiding and much of the independent press has stopped publishing on orders from the police.

The Associated Press reports that an anonymous source in Black Lion Hospital told their reporter that most of the dead had been shot in the chest. One eye-witness at the hospital claims that the police fired randomly into the crowd.

The dead were all shot by riot police and opposition spokesman Gizachew Shiferaw said police used excessive force. The previous day, however, two of the dead were police shot by protesters. The Government accuses the opposition of attempting to topple the government, and dismissed an assessment by European Union monitors that the elections failed to meet international standards.


text:
Talk:Anti-terror amendments to be rushed through Australian parliament because of new 'potential threats'

Use of quotes in title
The use of quotes is appropriate, because no actual threat has been detailed to the public. --CitizenBruce 12:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I dont see anything in the http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Naming_conventions or http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Neutral_point_of_view but ima a bit tired but this is a minor grammatical argument so i believe this should be published while it is debated on at least maybe with a "cleanup" tag.So I support CitizenBruce re-publishing this article with a cleanup tag in relation to the title--Whywhywhy 13:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I used the quotes in the title because we have no evidence of any threats, potential or otherwise, beyond a statement by the Prime Minister. It would be POV to use the Prime Ministers words in the title without quotes. - Borofkin 22:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Can't Aussies see through this charade?
The Aussie govern. must have been in trouble on this fascist legislation to have turned to U.S. style "ram it through" fear mongering; in fact, I'd be surprised if this threat did not originate in the pentagon or CIA. Of course, the Aussie people likely haven't seen enough of it to recognize it yet..releasing "wmd" type of faulty/created intel with advantageous political timing. But why not think ? Why on earth would a terrorist group be choosing this point in time to do something that would cause a target country to pass this legislation and (supposedly) become safer from their future attacks? This is not the most obvious example of this kind of stunt though. The most obvious was the day the Czech Republic President went to see Cheney and Cheney was asking him to send troops to Iraq. Right in the middle of the meeting they were interupted by word that there was a bomb threat to one of the Czech airlines planes and it had to be diverted. That was the only time such a bomb threat was ever made on a Czech airplane...timing is everything,after all, BUT the Czechs didn't fall for it; they seem to be pretty good at seeing through bullshit. Neutralizer 13:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * We are seeing through it. From what I can tell, just about everyone is pretty skeptical of the timing. But big Kim is going to let it pass through. This is the same dumbass that let Howard get away with the Tampa incident during the 2001 election. It seems he's quick to relent on supposed security issues. And you'd be right about the US influence. Johnny is well known for sucking up to the US, being especially close to Bush. Unfortunately he's also using similar fear tactics (not only this incident). His government gained seats in the last election (2004) and they recently gained control of the senate as well as the house of reps. Which is why the coalition government is now passing this draconian "anti-terror" law, as well as some major industrial-relations "reform" legislation. Being right-wing, they don't like unions of course. And I'm sick of them mentioning "the economy" when explaining why the IR reforms are good for everybody. The never mention "the people". Geez I'm pissed off about all this. Imroy 15:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

What does it matter if we do see through it? People are far too interested in their mortguages and what brand of big-screen TV they're going to buy. - Borofkin 22:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Publish now
Talk page's consensus is for publishing (including me). Neutralizer 13:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Bomb scare at Circular Quay
A colleague just had a phone call from his wife.

Apparently there is a bomb scare at circular quay, which is being evacuated.

Regards, BenAveling 06:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've started this article: Bomb scare at Sydney's Circular Quay - you should try to find out as much as you can and add it. No other news agencies at the moment are reporting this. - Borofkin 06:27, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


text:
User talk:195.7.55.146

Welcome
195.7.55.146, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 14:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:195.7.55.146


text:
User talk:212.85.15.86

Welcome
212.85.15.86, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 14:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:212.85.15.86


text:
User talk:24.163.161.47

Welcome
24.163.161.47, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 14:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:24.163.161.47


text:
User talk:203.27.208.181

Welcome
203.27.208.181, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 14:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:203.27.208.181


text:
Template talk:Wikinewslang

Untitled

 * Please add Русский (Russian) -Romihaitza 16:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Please add ภาษาไทย (Thai language) -Manop 12 Dec 05
 * Please add no: and zh: --Derbeth 22:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, add Català (Catalan) ca:--SMP 12:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, add bosnian wikinews --Kahriman 21:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Bosnian language written Cyrillic?
Offical alphabets of bosnian language are Latin and Cyrillic, but community (on bs wikipedia) agreed to use only latin alphabet, because it's more practical and it's nonsense to write Latin and Cyrillic, because, for us it's the same. So please correct that (you can check on any bs wikipedia project incudling wikinews and you will see that there is only Latin alphabet) --Kahriman 20:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you going to change it??? --Kahriman 16:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Finnish
Would you add Finnish (suomi) to the list, and also to the interwiki list on the left side of main page? --AtteL 14:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sindhi
Can someone also add Sindhi to the list as well as the interwiki list on the left side? 123.211.46.67 (talk) 08:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Tempodivalse [talk]  11:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Tamil
Can you please add Tamil to the list of wikinews. Thanks Mahir78 (talk) 18:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Mike  moral  ♪♫  18:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mahir78 (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request
editprotected

The dashes before Sindhi and Swedish don't have a space immediately proceeding them.  — fetch · comms  00:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 16:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Adding please: tr:Şablon:Diğer diller--Reality006 (talk) 22:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 21:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Persian
Could you please add Persian Wikinews to the template? According to here, It has 1,113 articles and is ranked 17 among 33 languages. Americophile (talk) 13:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Isn't there anybody here?!?!?!?! A MERICOPHILE 18:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Sorry, hadn't noticed this request. :-)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Thanks for adding!
 * I think the languages are arranged in alphabetical order, so Persian must come before Polish and after Norwejian. Ukrainian must be the last :) A MERICOPHILE  23:21, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Oops. Thanks. :-)  --Pi zero (talk) 23:33, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Links to closed Wikinews language sites
What can you do about the closed Wikinews sites? Strike them out, remove them, or leave them alone? --George Ho (talk) 05:04, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * What closed sites? Note that, e.g., Swedish Wikinews is not closed.  --Pi zero (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The Thai site is closed. So is the Sindhi one. As for the Swedish one, the page says that it's no longer active. --George Ho (talk) 19:05, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Swedish Wikinews has that message because some folks having serious beef against Wikinews proposes to close the wiki, either for a particular language or for entire project with meaningless arguments, and failing to understand how the wiki is different for the rest of the others because they see wiki news rather than wiki news . As a news site, the editing process is more challenging for the new comers and archives can not be edited. They fail to understand basic definition of news, and sometimes they decide to close a wikinews just two to three months after the launch (in 2010) and say "this wiki created in 2006 and with only forty-six content pages is a bit surprisingly not up-to-date at all. Having failed its mission and becoming obsolete, I now call for its closure." Swedish wikinews displays that message because some editors from meta added that message, even though the project was running fine.  Agastya Chandrakant   ⚽ 🏆 🎾 🎬 🎤 📰  20:28, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * All right. Thanks for telling me that. Enough about the Swedish one, what about links to Thai and Sindhi? --George Ho (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thai and Sindhi Wikinews are closed. Agastya Chandrakant   ⚽ 🏆 🎾 🎬 🎤 📰  20:54, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

So what to do with those two links then? --George Ho (talk) 04:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I would suggest removing hu, sd and th (locked projects). Soft-closed ones (no, fi, sv) should remain imho. Sorry for warming up an old discussion. - Xbspiro (talk) 12:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested edit
editprotected Please replace the dashes with interpuncts ( · ) as they are a standard ISO separator. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:08, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 23:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Link to Turkish Wikinews
editprotected Currently, the link to Turkish Wikinews is now a redirect. It should be changed from "Ana sayfa" (w/ space) to "Anasayfa" (w/o space). --George Ho (talk) 22:41, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 23:00, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Korean
editprotected Korean Wikinews should be added. --George Ho (talk) 20:14, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

How about piping the link as "한국어 (Korean)"? --George Ho (talk) 07:43, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 14:09, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Limburgish
editprotected Limbörgse Wikinuujs (Limburgish Wikinews) is now established and should be added. --George Ho (talk) 12:56, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We can do without “Wikinuujs” and “Wikinews”, i.e. remove those. George Ho (talk) 02:21, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Quite right; got it. --Pi zero (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I found out that "Limburgs" is used in Wikidata and meta:Wikinews, so "Limbörgse" → "Limburgs". --George Ho (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

 * More to the point, li.wn apparently uses "Limburgs". --Pi zero (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * More like the third thing: See this, this and this. This uses those words interchangably. •–•  05:33, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you want. Not seeing any clear refutation of "Limburgs". --Pi zero (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Locked sites
editprotected I think indefinitely locked sites, like Bulgarian and Thai, should be removed from the template. The links don't tell readers that those sites are locked until they click/tap them. --George Ho (talk) 06:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Declined. They point to where the sister projects where the data is still there, and readers can at least benefit from the archives, which is an important part of any news site. •–•  06:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Edit
editprotected Please add gu.wn. Heavy Water (talk) 18:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ I added guw, though I am not sure how it emerged from incubator stats. --SVTCobra 18:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Wikinewslang


text:
User talk:82.70.200.181

Welcome
82.70.200.181, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 16:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:82.70.200.181


text:
11 MPs ejected from Australian parliament

November 2, 2005

A record number of 11 MPs were ejected from the Australian Parliament during the uproar that ensued the introduction of the government's controversial industrial relations legislation.

The opposition Industrial Relations Spokesman, Stephen Smith said that the speaker had only applied his ruling to the opposition side of the house and said that "My impression sitting in the chamber was that there was plenty of noise coming from both sides".

The new bill of nearly 700 pages sees the end of Australia's 100 year old wage fixing system and will push more workers onto individual contracts, allowed award conditions like penalty rates to be bargained away and removed unfair dismissal laws for most workers.


title: File:3November2005.sxw


title: File:3November2005.pdf


text:
Australian House of Representatives grows heated over industrial relations legislation

November 3, 2005

Australian industral relations reform legislation made up of 700 pages of bill legislation and 500 additional pages of explanatory memoranda was introduced into the Federal House of Representatives November 2, where the Opposition heatedly attempted to address their perceived problem of the Government's lack of discussion and debate over the matter.

The first reading of the bill was the first order of the day, and when Kevin Andrews tried to do so, Opposition member Stephen Smith, responsible for workplace relations, immediately moved a motion deferring the bills to the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Employment, Workplace Relations and Workforce Participation. The Leader of the House, Tony Abbott moved that Smith and the necessary supporter — viz., Julia Gillard — be not further heard (cloture). The Government's majority in the House ensured that this would happen. However, Opposition members attempted to use House standing orders necessitating that copies of the bill to be "available to Members", with argument arising whether "available to Members" meant all members or simply whether some copies should be available; this ended up in a dissent motion moved against the Speaker of the House.

Later, in a heated Question Time, where six members of the Opposition, (Kelly Hoare, Julia Irwin, Anthony Albanese, Bernard Ripoll, Catherine King, and Gavan O'Connor), were removed from the Chamber during Question Time under standing orders for disruption — Jill Hall quipped that she was "glad to be still here to ask [her] question" — nearly all questions to the Government put by the Opposition, the subsequent time for matters of public importance, and some members in the adjournment debate, was all on the topic of the industrial relations reform.

To implement and fund the legislation, the government will "spend an additional $486million on industrial relations changes over four years, or $121million a year. This spending would be in addition to the present annual budget of $86million." said an unnamed government source for The Australian.

The government will need to use its corporation powers to remove the powers from the states to alter the award conditions and other employee employer related conditions. But the New South Wales premier Morris Iemma has received legal advice that the legislation maybe unconstitutional, the reason being its being used to end the role of the states and territories Australian States in the industrial relations system. "It is our view that the Commonwealth is misusing this law to achieve exactly what it was designed to prevent", Iemma said. Mr Iemma will be challenging the changes in the high court with Peter Beattie Premier of Queensland supporting his challenge in the High Court.


text:
Talk:Australian House of Representatives grows heated over industrial relations legislation

Original reporting
This article contains original reporting based on official transcripts of Parliament. - Borofkin 02:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

More information
great start on the article but what about (was it eight) labour members ejected from the house? Did Kevin Andrews have to wait a hour to read the report out after it had been tabled? --Whywhywhy 01:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Six, by my count. Just added it. Would have added it earlier but Adobe Acrobat was screwing around with me, so couldn't. Dysprosia 01:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

some more 700 page bill legislation and 500 dditional pages of explanatory memoranda http://www.crikey.com.au/articles/2005/11/02-1552-6392.html

and there is a article some where about how much its going to cost to implement

--Whywhywhy 02:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17113426%255E2702,00.html

i found it "The Government will spend an extra $500 million over four years on new and enhanced government regulatory bodies handed the job of encouraging workplace bargaining, especially via non-union individual employment contracts." but its from :"Government sources" how could this be included or can it? --Whywhywhy 03:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC) and maybe a edited version: "Meanwhile, New South Wales Premier Morris Iemma says his Government has received legal advice suggesting the legislation is unconstitutional, because it is using its power under the corporations law to end the role of the states and territories in the industrial relations system.

"It is our view that the Commonwealth is misusing this law to achieve exactly what it was designed to prevent," Mr Iemma said. He says Queensland Premier Peter Beattie is backing the High Court challenge.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1496903.htm whats your opinion on the inclusions of these points.? --Whywhywhy 03:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I like it. Go ahead and stick 'em in the article if you want. - Borofkin 04:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * If I am not mistaken, all states are planning a legal challenge to the laws. Perhaps it's also worth mentioning these laws may face a further challenge in the senate due to the extremely slim majority and the risk of the Queensland National and Family First senator opposing. Oh and background info one these laws is needed, especially as there doesn't appear to be an additional wikinews article on them. What they will do & what opposition to them is about (removal of guarateed breaks, easier to fire people, government ability to end strikes, voting requirements for calling strikes, likelihood that a youth worker will be able to neogiate for the breaks etc in abscence of laws requiring them) Nil Einne 11:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * All the states? I thought victoria had already given up it rights? Ill look for a article
 * I think everything gets threw the senate with slim majority.Ima neither here nor their on it being added
 * Links to the previous articles is a good idea as for the changes effect they are in the normal wiki area but you could find all the quotes or read the bill and post the relevent things.

--Whywhywhy 04:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)