text:
Hundreds of thousands rally in Australia against IR legislation

November 15, 2005

People rallied in 300 locations across Australia today to protest the Federal Government's proposed changes to industrial relations laws, WorkChoices. According to police, around 150,000 people congregated in Melbourne, from where speeches were broadcast throughout the country. In Sydney, thirty thousand gathered in Belmore Park and Martin Place to watch the broadcast before marching to Chifley Square.

Sharan Burrow, President of the Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU), said that under the changes many working conditions would be under threat, including "penalty rates, public holidays, overtime pay, control over rostered hours, shift penalties, even 4 weeks annual leave." The government has claimed, despite various expert assesment to the contrary, and opposition from major Australian religious and charity organisations and some concern from its own backbench, that the IR changes will improve the economy and ultimately benefit workers, and dismissed the protests as having "little effect".

Speeches
Ms Burrow said that the union movement was "standing up for the values that shape the way we care for each other," and criticised the proposed legislation, calling it "an attack on living standards, community, family life and wages."

The IR changes were also criticised by a number of church leaders. George Pell, Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, said "I'm not a supporter of the radical weakening of the unions," and Anglican Bishop Phillip Higgins called them "disturbing and unwise."

Ms Burrow also criticised the Government's public relations campaign, calling it a waste of money. "They spent $55 million of our money trying to convince us that everything was okay," she said.

Greg Combet, Secretary of the ACTU, linked the struggle to past wars in which Australia has fought. "They fought and died in wars for this country. They do not deserve to have their rights taken away." He said that, for many, workplace changes would come quickly, especially for the most vulnerable. He also argued that some employers would be forced by competition to reduce wages and working conditions. "Even the best employers can be driven by competition to lower their labour costs. We will end up with an army of working poor, like the US," he said.

"We will hold the government to account for the human cost of these laws," Mr Combet said.

Former Labor Prime Minister Bob Hawke said that the struggle was about what he called "the essence of Australian character - the fair go." Opposition Labor leader Kim Beazley declared that if returned to government at the next election, Labor would repeal the legislation. "This legislation is gone with the election of a Labor government," he said.

Government response
Prime Minister John Howard predicted that the protests would have little effect. "It is my view that after they (the laws) have been implemented for a period of time, most Australians will look back on the criticisms and objections ... with a sense of bewilderment," Howard said.

"The sky will not fall in, weekend barbecues will not be abolished, parents will still be able to spend Christmas Day with their children."

The Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Kevin Andrews, echoed the Prime Ministers sentiments. "Well the Government’s not going to be distracted by rallies and hysterical overreaction," he said. Mr Andrews defended the Government's record, arguing that it has been responsible for an increase in wages over the past ten years.

"Well what I would say to Australians, whether they were the people on the streets today or the probably 95% of Australians who were in their workplaces today working, is that firstly, look at the record of this Government over the last 10 years. That record speaks for itself.  We’ve seen a 15% increase in real wages and we’ve seen a 1.7 million increase in jobs in Australia," he said. Mr Andrews also said that the industrial relations changes were about creating the conditions for a strong economy.

"So what we’ve been on about is bringing about the economic conditions that we can have a strong economy which ultimately is the only guarantee of jobs and wages in Australia."

Debate over proposed legislation
The claims of the Government are highly debated and not supported by some independent expert assesment. Professor Mark Wooden from the Melbourne Institute said, "There is no economic sense in it." A report issued by 17 independent experts in industrial relations from Australian tertiary institutions stated that there "is no convincing evidence that the proposals will generate jobs," and that the "claim that individual contracts deliver a higher productivity is highly questionable."

The IMF said in its 2005 review of the Australian economy that "the implementation of this package of reforms to widen employment opportunities and raise productivity by enhancing flexibility in work arrangements" was important for Australia's economic future, contradicting Prof. Wooden's claims.

The OECD also supports reform to the Industrial relations system, claiming in its 2004 Review of the Australian Economy "To further encourage participation and favour employment, the industrial relations system also needs to be reformed so as to increase the flexibility of the labour market, reduce employment transaction costs and achieve a closer link between wages and productivity."

Melbourne protest
Before marching to the Carlton gardens, a live video hook-up was established between the major state capitals of Australia, plus smaller regional centres.

According to police, some 150,000 marched from Federation Square to Royal Exhibition building to protest the proposed IR legislation and voice opinion, vastly in excess of original union estimates of 60,000. Organisers estimated a crowd up to 245,000 while a report from Sky News from aerial observation estimated 175,000 people attending the protest. The crowd spread through the streets of Melbourne as far as the eye could see - a seemlingly endless mass from the ground. The march stretched eight city blocks; when the first marchers had reached the end at the Carlton Gardens, the tail end was just starting.

For the marchers, the consensus was that the negatives of the legislation outweigh the benefits; that it will affect the poorer working class and the middle class long into the future unless the legislation is rolled back. One issue of concern was that the Government has not accepted that the minimum wage needs to rise with inflation, rather its position appears to be to allow for the possibility that the minimum wage could fall in real terms. Another was the loss of the safety net protecting workers from contacts offering less than award conditions.

Public transport was stretched to capacity and car parking was almost impossible to find. Inclement weather ultimately became fine. See the photo gallery for more photos

Sydney protest
At 10am the estimated 30,000 protestors moved from Belmore Park down Hay St onto George St, chanting slogans and waving union banners.

Led by a fire truck, traditional Korean drummers and the Unions NSW campaign bus, they stretched nearly six city blocks along George Street, chanting their opposition to the changes.

Meeting with the rally from Martin Place, the combined march then moved on to Chifley Square, where another stage was set up, and more speakers were heard, including Peter Garrett, Federal member for Kingsford-Smith.

Garrett spoke mostly about the dispute between Boeing and 28 aircraft engineers at its Williamtown site. The workers are on strike to obtain the right to enter into a collective agreement negotiated by their union, rather than independent agreements. The strike is now in its fifth month.

Up to 100,000 people in NSW took part in 227 separate stopwork meetings throughout the state, linked by a nationwide Sky Channel hook up. The M4 motorway was also blocked off for nearly an hour, by transport workers and police.

More photographs of the Sydney protest can be seen in the Australian Industrial Relations Protest (Sydney) Gallery.

Brisbane protest
In Brisbane, Queensland, organisers have claimed success after more than 15,000 people turned out to protest against the industrial relations laws. Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley joined the workers, including representatives from 40 unions, who rallied at South Bank before marching to the Queensland office of the National party.

Mr Beazley told the South Bank rally that one of the first things he would do as Prime Minister would be to put in place "a fair system".

Queensland Premier Peter Beattie said the State Government will push ahead with its High Court challenge to the Howard Government's proposed changes to industrial laws.

Rallies were also organised for the Gold Coast, Bundaberg, Gladstone, Rockhampton, Townsville and Cairns.

Adelaide protest
In Adelaide, the SA Premier Mike Rann told a rally, estimated by police at 15,000 workers, that the State Government will fight the proposed new laws all the way to the High Court. "This is the most systematic attack on the values of Australian people that we've seen since the Second World War," Mr Rann said.

SA Unions secretary Janet Giles was ecstatic with the response. "40,000 people in a city of one million . . . a sensational turnout. There are people here from every union, from all industries," she said.

Adelaide images here

Perth
In Perth WA commuters experienced transport disruptions today as the city came to a halt for the Rally. Police estimates put the crowd at 10,000. UnionsWA secretary Dave Robinson told those assembled near the foreshore of the Swan River that it was a historic day. Premier Geoff Gallop, WA Employment Protection Minister John Kobelke and federal Labor industrial relations spokesman Stephen Smith also spoke at the rally.

The government earlier today revealed that Solicitor General Robert Meadows, QC, would lead WA's High Court fight, mounted in conjunction with Queensland and NSW. Mr Kobelke said the action would seek to save 100 years of cooperative Australian industrial relations based on conciliation and arbitration. Perth images here

Other Cities
According to the ABC, 4,500 people rallied in the Tasmanian city of Hobart. Unions say 3,000 workers have rallied at Thoroughbred Park in Canberra. In Darwin, nurses, teachers, public servants, construction workers and entire families have turned out to show that not only workers will be affected by the Federal Government's industrial relations reforms. Traffic blocked the roads leading the Fannie Bay Racecourse. Crowds jostled for space to see the satellite fed telecast from the Melbourne rally.

Wellington, NZ also showed solidarity as some 200 people demonstrated outside the Australian Embassy.

Photo Gallerys
Melbourne Gallery

Sydney Gallery


text:
Talk:Hundreds of thousands rally in Australia against IR legislation

Original reporting
I attended the rally at Belmore Park, Sydney, and took notes on events that transpired, including speeches. - Borofkin 02:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended the melbourne one too -Whywhywhy 03:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended the Melbourne rally and gave permission for my photos (Takver), as published on Melbourne Indymedia, to be used under a Creative Commons 2.5 licence.--Tirin 04:06, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I attended Sydney rally and took some photos, but most fairly unremarkable - So far, I have included one in the article. I also have a recording of most of Combet's speech which I may upload later. --CitizenBruce 03:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Crowd size
Okay, we need to keep track of crowd size estimates, and generally they need to be atributed to someone. So, breaking it up into differnet sites:

Melbourne
According to this ABC online article the police estimated 100,000. Where does the estimate of 175,000 come from? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, we have an updated police estimate of 150,000 from here, and some papers are estimating 175,000. - Borofkin 04:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

150,000 is what i herd at the rally as by the police nova news estimated more but i didnt have my counting stick out --Whywhywhy 04:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's hard estimating crowd sizes, eh? I tried to do it at the Belmore Park rally in Sydney but gave up. - Borofkin 04:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Sharan Burrow, ACTU President, said in a press release post event that 210,000 attended the Melbourne rally.  Sky News gave an estimate of 175,000 based on aerial coverage of the protest, which was quoted and used in The Age in a report published about 11am.  A [report] on the ABC said organisers estimated 245,000 people attended the Melbourne rally.--Tirin 05:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sydney
We are currently estimating "tens of thousands" for Sydney. Does anyone have a better estimate? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * We've got the 30K figure from an article, where does the 100K figure for all NSW come from?

I was at the gathering at Ryde-Eastwood Leagues Club. This is in the Bennelong electrorate. I was the 200th person in the room, and there were probably another 50-100 who entered after me. On the way out I saw people emerging from the lower floor, which means there was probably a full house down there (another 250 or so??) I live within a few hundred metres of the club, and so am familiar with typical parking arrangements. The culb has two car parks. On a typical Saturday night once the car parks are full cars fill the street parking for a 100m radius around the club. After this morning's meeting car parking was full within a 300m radius of the club. 202.154.105.254 06:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Perth
User:Elliot_k has gone to this one, I think, so he may have an estimate when he gets back. - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Bloody trains were stopped after 11.30, which meant i couldnt make it! but some indy crew are there. i'll put a report here later today...

--elliot_k 05:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Total
Our estimate for the total, country-wide, all venues, is in the article title, and is currently "hundreds of thousands". Does anyone dispute this? Do you think we can make it more accurate? - Borofkin 04:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

In this news.com.au article ACTU spokesman Ian Wilson says "We expect the final (national) figure will be half a million," - Borofkin 04:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Quarter of a million if they're lucky. Huge turnout in Melbourne, rubbish everywhere else. Josh Parris 06:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think so. Very substantial crowd in Belmore Park and when the march reached King Street an additional crowd joined it which packed King Street from George Street up to at beyond Castlreagh (3 or 4 blocks at least) --CitizenBruce 06:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Sharan Burrow, President of the ACTU, released an estimate of attendance of 546,000 in total, Australia wide. This was published post event shortly after 3.30pm AEST. Community Protest Against New IR Laws Bigger Than Expected. This can be used as a source for organisers' crowd estimates in capital city rallies and regional meetings. In Melbourne this press release said 210,000. Sky News gave an estimate of 175,000 based on aerial coverage of the protest, which was quoted in The Age.--Tirin 03:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Sounds good to me. Feel free to edit the article directly, and remember to attribute the estimates to the ACTU. - Borofkin 04:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I've added the ACTU press release as a source at the bottom of the article. - Borofkin 04:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Greg Combet has claimed 600,000 people nationwide took to the streets to protest against the changes.. As Secretary of the ACTU he would be in a position to tally up all the union estimates of attendance at protest rallies and events. --Tirin 06:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Photos
iv got more including one identical to the one at the top :) which i suggested to some dude to take i wonder if it was him. I also have alot more but i have to go work :) o the irony - unsigned comment by Whywhywhy

More Sydney photographs coming up. Including ones of the crowd in Belmore Park, the Unions bus, the South Korean Drummers, Peter Garett, John Robertson (Secretary of Unions NSW) (can someone confirm his name and find a photo to make sure we have the right person when I upload the photo) and Tony Burke (MP who was in the march). Just been busy with some prior commitments. Will upload them soon (just have to pick them out from 500 photos). -- Jasabella 06:10, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * John Robertson is indeed Secretary of Unions New South Wales. Unless I'm mistaken, he's bald as a bowling ball, and he isn't Peter Garett. We're really looking forward to those photo's, you did a great job on Tuesday. If you can, add them to " " on Commons. There is already one photo in there. - Borofkin 22:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Melbourne Protest section
This section needs to be worked on a bit. Remember that we can only make statements of fact if they are indeed undisputable facts. For example, this sentence: "One of the major changes is the removal of a independently appointed community to decide on minium wage rises and falls which could backfire on the Liberal party if Labour got in on rises in minimum wage promises.". Who says it could backfire? Also how was the "consensus among the marchers" determined? This is just some stuff to think about (and the overseas Wikinews contributors are bound to pull us up on it). Everyone has done bloody great work so far. - Borofkin 04:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Also all the reports of mine come from speaking to random people on public transport.edit how ye see fit. --Whywhywhy 04:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I've had a stab at editing it, but there's more to do. Josh Parris 04:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

thanks for everyone who edited this section so that it now looks ten time better.--Whywhywhy 00:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Keeping track of original reporting
Everyone who has done original reporting for this article should add a comment under the "Original reporting" section at the top of this talk page, stating which rally you attended, the source for quotes and information that you added to the article (listened to speeches, interviewed people, observed), what means you used to record information (tape recorder, written notes, etc). You should sign your comment, using four tildes ( ~ ). Remember that with orignal reporting, you are the source of information and the means by which facts presented in the article can be verified. - Borofkin 04:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Permission to Use photos from Melbourne Indymedia
Have just spoken to the photographer "takver" of the shots on this melbourne.indymedia page:

Workers march against Howard by Takver Tuesday November 15, 2005 at 02:55 PM

from oceania indymedia irc: i said "hi takver, can wikinews get permission to use yr photos please :)" takver said: "go for it :)"

--elliot_k 05:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * No worries. Note that he is not just giving permission for us to use his photo's - he is giving permission for them to be re-used for any purpose, including commercial activity. Ideally he can upload them to the Commons. - Borofkin 05:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Takver says: "I have no probs with use of my photos under CC licence, as long as I am credited as the photographer, and the source URL is acknowledged" --elliot_k 06:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * If a photo is available under free license, it should be transwikied to commons... Very glad to have the pics! --Chiacomo [[User_talk:Chiacomo|(talk)]] 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yep. The license you want is probably "Creative Commons Attribution 2.5" - just pick it from the drop-down menu when uploading to the commons, and add Takver's details to the comments field. - Borofkin 06:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Time to publish?
I reckon the article's in a fit state to publish. Josh Parris 06:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep, I reckon it's looking pretty good. Might need to reorganise the pictures a little bit, though. - Borofkin 06:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

OECD and the IMF
What is the source for the OECD and IMF calling for the legislation to be passed? - Borofkin 06:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * IMF search http://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Aimf.org+workchoice&btnG=Search&meta= reveals zero hits.
 * OECD search http://www.google.com.au/search?q=site%3Aoecd.org+workchoice&btnG=Search&meta= reveals zero hits.
 * I think this is bogus. Josh Parris 06:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hearald Sun article October 11th 2005 "Let's work a miracle': In its Economic Survey of Australia 2004 the OECD said: ``To further encourage participation and favour employment, the industrial relations system also needs to be reformed so as to increase the flexibility of the labour market, reduce employment transaction costs and achieve a closer link between wages and productivity.''
 * http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22Let%27s+work+a+miracle%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU zero hits. Not online. Josh Parris
 * http://notes.nt.gov.au/lant/hansard/hansard10.nsf/0/41c451608bdbae8e6925708f000331ae?OpenDocument&Click= But the quote was read into Hansard. Josh Parris

For IMF, see The Australian October 31st IMF head attacks ACTU cheif over wages quote: The IMF's annual review of Australia's economy supported the Howard Government's industrial relations reform. - JamesP
 * http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,17086376,00.html Josh Parris

 * But also in article I have referenced says: "His message ought to be the one the OECD sent earlier this year: don't throw out the baby with bathwater. Australia already has the sixth least restrictive job protection in the Western world, it pointed out. Job security is something it should keep." (How to make the best of a bad lot of law) - this quote indicates perhaps not quite as simple as claimed. --CitizenBruce 06:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. It would be best to quote the organisations directly rather than paraphrasing. And remember that it needs to be in the context of the protest - we don't want to get bogged down presenting a debate about the IR changes. - Borofkin 06:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Actual Quotes from organisation's have been added, see 'Global bank backs work law changes' The Age, Tim Colebatch, September 14 for furhter IMF quotes -- JamesP

 * I think the OECD quote should be removed as it does not relate specifically to the actual legislation and seems to misprepresent the wider view which the article I have referenced indicates. --CitizenBruce 06:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think I agree - I don't really understand it's relavence to the article. Someone could perhaps provide some explanatory sentences to provide context? Otherwise it should probably be removed. - Borofkin 07:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

OECD quote is necessary only because of the Prof's claims to no economic necessity. OECD analysis shows that industrial relations reform is necessary. It's only fair to show their opinion. -- JamesP

New structure is better, more objective. -- James P

Story about the PROTEST and not the issue?
I'd assume the purpose of this article is to report on the PROTEST and not necessarily the debate itself. --elliot_k 06:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I'm not sure where the line should be drawn here. If we are going to report on the speeches, which contain criticism of the government, then we have to report on the governments response. If we are going to then add expert criticism of the governments argument, then we have to present multiple points of view on the IR changes in general. The article is getting rather long, however. - Borofkin 06:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes it is messy. --CitizenBruce 06:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Photos Page?
Whats the go with a photo section? Can we have a separate page for photos? Whats the protocols on this... I have a bunch of shots from the Melbourne rally (with permission).

--elliot_k 06:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * You should upload them all to the Wikimedia Commons, and put them all in the same Category. Then we can link from the article to the category on Commons. - Borofkin 06:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, thanks - will do that now. Might hassle you out for morre help! BTW I'm still waiting on a numbers reportback from my Perth crew. In terms of this article being too long, its a very important story. Aussies hardly ever rally up like this. --elliot_k 06:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * No worries, feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regarding the article length, we could always split it into two, with one focussing on protest events, and another one about the wider debate. - Borofkin 07:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Melbourne Pics Uploaded to Commons. --elliot_k 07:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC) ditto--Whywhywhy 09:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Sydney photographs have finally been uploaded to Commons! -- Jasabella 05:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

CitizenBruce, you should have met up with Borofkin and me perhaps? Oh well, maybe next time! Would have been funny if we saw each other without realising and even funnier if we actually have photographs of each other ;-) hehehe (In case you're wondering, I was the crazy Asian girl with a camera around her neck who was running around in slides, painted toenails, black top and a floral print skirt - yes my legs are still aching :-/ Oh, I almost fell out the back of the Unions NSW truck to at some stage too.) -- Jasabella 05:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Location of photos on commons
Okay, the photo's from melbourne can be found on the Wikimedia Commons, here:

 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_IR_Protest_2005-11-15_-_Melbourne

I recommend that any from Sydney be added to a Sydney category, thusly:

 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Australian_IR_Protest_2005-11-15_-_Sydney

- Borofkin 07:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Congratulations to all who worked on this article
It is a fantastic piece of reporting. What a job well done. Neutralizer 02:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. That is really superb reporting --Deprifry|+T+ 06:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Category
editprotected 'Category:2005 Australian IR Protest' should be added. Van der Hoorn (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

 * ✅ ♪Tempo di Valse ♪ 22:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

File:100 5958.jpg
Please change the image to Image:Melbourne rally against IR.jpg. It has been renamed at Commons. Körnerbrötchen (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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User talk:70.48.247.51

Welcome
70.48.247.51, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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hi

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OECD and IMF support for Australian IR legislation
You added this line "It should be noted, however, that both the OECD and the IMF have called for the legislation to be passed." to the article Hundreds of thousands rally in Australia against IR legislation. Do you have a source for this claim? We haven't been able to find it in any of the currently listed sources. - Borofkin 06:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:202.7.176.133


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Category:November 15, 2005

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title: Category:November 15, 2005


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Wikinews talk:Editors

Policy proposal
This policy is designed based on the ongoing discussions for a de-admin policy on the water cooler and the admin talk page. Its purpose it to provide a corrollary method by which the community may choose to censor its members, a task it seems uninterested in delegating. Feel free to discuss the pros and cons of the proposal here. - Amgine 06:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Good thinking, Amgine. I think we should be actively promoting the idea of good-editorship just as we are trying to think through what constitutes good adminship. I think that courtesy and good faith should also be central to that idea.

 * I'm not sure I accept that we actually need to "censor" any of our editors (or editor-admins) in and of themselves. In my view, censorship applies to WHAT's being said rather than the PEOPLE saying it. Thought of that way, any member of the community can censor any article, simply by going in and removing the bit deemed unacceptable.

 * Except in obvious cases of spam or vandalism, "silencing" editors (eg. blocking them) is, in my view, a matter of absolute last resort. But I propose that we try to hammer out a clearer consensus on exactly where that "last resort" should be. My starting point would be that this last resort entails that a clear and specific warning (eg. if you do x again you will be blocked for y period of time) must have been given. My next point would be that X must be clearly defined, otherwise we're back to giving admins "arbitrary power". One example of how this might work: I think many of us would agree that the use of a personally insulting term, which focusses on an editor themselves rather than on their actions, is unacceptable. Eg. "UserZ is stupid", rather than "I think that this particular edit made by UserZ was unnecessary". I think most of us would agree that if a wikinews editor was repeatedly making such specifically-insulting comments to other users (as opposed to comments that a particular user chooses to characterise, without good reason, as "offensive" or "disrespectful"), it would in my view be appropriate, in the last resort, to block for a limited period of time. The final warning should also be very specific eg. "If you use an insulting term towards another user again we will block you for 24 hours". Rather than "If you are disruptive [where 'disruptive' has never actually been defined] again we will block you for 24 hours".

If we're going to use "disruption" as a valid reason for blocking then we certainly need to define what it actually means in the context of wikinews. Rcameronw 10:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

What is the difference between de-editing and blocking? ClareWhite 16:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm thinking that de-editing would be more in line with a permanent block? --Wolfrider 19:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * First, I think the required majority for a ban should be 2/3 or higher since it really is the last resort. IMO it's wrong that banning a user would be easier than unbanning him. Secondly I think it should also be possible to impose remedies less severe than a ban. Like "UserABC is subject to a 1RR for three weeks" or "UserXYZ may not edit pages concerning internal politics of Tuvalu for two months". I'm not sure if that is doable under the current concept or if that requires an ArbCom. --User:Deprifry|+T+ 12:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sanctions

 * I think there's one very important distinction between the "sanction of choice" for admin abuse (de-sysop) and that for abuse by editors (eg. blocking). If you de-sysop an admin they can still participate in the community. In principle they can even win back their status if they can "redeem" themselves and win back the community's trust. But blocking an editor silences them completely and stops all participation in the community. May sometimes be necessary for time-limited periods if all other alternatives have failed, but it's a blunt instrument if (as is almost always the case) we're simply trying to tackle one troublesome aspect of their work here. A permanent block would permanently exclude them from all participation with no possibility of "redemption".

Rcameronw

 * How is this different? De-admining removes their ability to act as an admin. De-editing removes their ability to act as an editor. You'll never know if a de-admined user would be a better admin due to your action, any more than you'd know if a de-edited user would be a better editor. Both have the opportunity to request restoration of status, but at 70% approval requirement it is effectively impossible. Both are blunt instruments. Neither should be approved. - Amgine 20:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Please don't propose policies in an attempt to be arch Amgine. --Wolfrider 22:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It's not merely to be arch, it is to be fair. Neither policy is a good idea, in my opinion, but if we have the one we should have the other. Since reasoned discussion was not being heard, example may be. - Amgine 22:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Amgine, I think that's a bit unfair. I for one have been very heartened by the way that what started out as quite an apparently angry discussion many days ago has gradually become more and more respectful and reasoned. At the outset there seemed to be two entrenched camps, whereas now I think we've got a much more nuanced discussion. --Rcameronw 23:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think 70% is an insurmountable hurdle at all, so long as a de-adminned admin is willing to make the case in a fair and reasonable way. I think you might be surprised how open-minded the community was prepared to be if it seemed that a de-adminned admin had learned from their mistakes and was ready for a second go at it. But actually I'd not personally be opposed to lowering the threshold to 60%. An editor who's been completely excluded, on the other hand has absolutely no chance at all for a comeback. But I agree that de-sysop is also in many ways a blunt instrument. How about this as a more nuanced "sanction": Temporary de-sysop - Where an admin has caused serious concern but not done something to warrant permanent loss of status, we could hae a suspension of admin priveleges for a fixed period. Any thoughts? --Rcameronw 23:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

--Rcameronw 23:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think that would be an excellent authority for the ArbCom to utilize, Rcameronw. - Amgine 23:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

"De-editing"?

 * Sorry to top-post. What purpose is it proposed to serve? Do you understand what purpose wikimedia serves? How does de-editing serve wikimedia's purpose? Technical questions, even though valid, are academic if the action has no well-understood purpose, or if the understood purpose does not fit wikimedia's explicit purposes. -- Simeon 04:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The De-Editing policy serves in lieu of a arbitration committee to give the community the opportunity to ban users who have proven themselves to be detrimental to the goals of the community. This is not the only way to do this, nor even the best imo (I would prefer an arbitration committee, personally.) It serves the purpose of Wikinews by supporting the community through the removal (or reduction) of disruptive members, and enforcing community-developed policies and standards. In short, it is a method of showing contributors are responsible to the community for their actions. -  Amgine | talk en.WN 04:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What is "De-editing"? How is it done? Who can do it? When it is done, what record exists of it having been done? --JWSchmidt 04:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * "De-editing" is removing a user or IP's editing privileges through a process similar to a de-adminship. It is a poll of community members, requesting that a person's privileges be removed. It was done briefly on en.wikipedia, I believe the spring of 2003 or 2004, through a process called "Quick Polls" before being abandoned as hopelessly divisive and unworkable, replacing with an arbitration committee. I believe a modified version was or is used on de.wikipedia. - Amgine 04:21, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Technically, how is it done? Who can do it? --JWSchmidt 04:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * At the request of the community and according to policy, an admin applies a block to a username or an IP. - Amgine 04:37, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * So "De-editing" is just an extension/modification of existing Blocking policy? If it is a way to block users, how long is the block for? --JWSchmidt 04:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The characteristic is that it is the community creating the block. As the policy states, the account owner is welcome to request their editing privileges be restored on the editors page, so there is a minimum block of 7 days. The maximum would be up to the community to determine. If the account owner does not request the block be lifted, or the community prefers not to lift it, it would be indefinite. - Amgine 04:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

If someone is blocked from editing how do they edit the editors page so as to request having editing "privileges: be restored? "Requests should be certified" <-- What does this mean? --JWSchmidt 12:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry I did not reply to this earlier, JWSchmidt. For some reason it isn't on my watchlist.

 * A user's name or IP is blocked. To request their privileges be restored they would need to make the request while not logged into their username, or would need to edit from a different IP address to request their other be unblocked. There are a range of options to do so.

 * Certifying a request is to have a minimum number of additional persons "sign onto" a request for deadminship within a limited amount of time. The suggested number for deadminship was 4, which I would assume would be the same required for de-editing. - Amgine 07:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Question?
Amgine, I see the requirements you inserted for de-editing someone is "majority" while for de-admining it's "overwhelming majority". Why the difference? Doesn't the difference give the impression of an elitist platform with extra protections and higher removal thresholds for the admins. ? Neutralizer 23:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The requirements to become an admin are overwhelming consensus... While I've decided not to become to involved in the policy discussion about administrators, I will say that if it requires an overwhelming consensus to become one, it should probably require an overwhelming consensus to remove adminship. I'm not certain Amgine was thinking of the de-admin policy when he wrote this draft -- and if he was, I'm not certain the two policies should be directly related. Think of it this way, Neutralizer: If one is unsuccesful in a request for de-adminship, one could simply come here and initiate a request for de-editing. I'm also not entirely certain Amgine is even serious about this proposal at all. If the arbcom comes about, this policy should/will/must become pointless. Let's focus on the arbcom. --Chiacomo (talk) 00:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up re; the sincerity of this effort. Amgine promoted this as a "corrolary" to the deadmin so if he is serious then the thresholds should be the same if we have not completely left the realm of logic. I can easily see a rogue admin. with no editing ability...they would still be able to wield the blocking tool (without the threats). I'd still like to hear what Amgine has to say about it rather than try to guess. Neutralizer 02:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If you are "de-edited" you cannot do anything on the Wikinews site. --Chiacomo (talk) 03:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I stand corrected...hmmmm....ok Chiacomo, thank you. Neutralizer 03:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Took time to think about this. I don't think we should be in a position where we have listed administrators who have lost their editing priveleges. It would create a misleading list and cause confusion for new visitors to the site who might try to contact that admin because he is on the list of admins. I really think we should try to get away from doublespeak situations . Neutralizer 15:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So,back to my main point from which I allowed myself to be distracted; Amgine promoted this as a "corrolary" to the deadmin so then the thresholds should be the same if we have not completely left the realm of logic . Neutralizer 15:16, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If someone were de-edited they would no longer be an administrator -- or any other part of the community. How's the bird flu situation? --Chiacomo (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok; I'll start to work on a bird flu feature story today..but I gotta admit; it's depressing as all hell...it really looks like this pandemic's gonna happen and there's not a damn thing anybody can do about it...the story will be full of all kinds of conflicting pov/opinions from a whole variety of health officials and govern. leaders, all with 1 thing on common...trying to cover their asses before the flu hits the fan. Neutralizer 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Prank?
I had initially assumed this was a joke, prank, or amusing POINT, and I laughed. But it now seems people are actually taking this seriously? Doesn't this just make us look stupid in the eyes of the rest of the Wikimedia Foundation? Nyarlathotep 17:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

To explain further, it is my understanding that wikipedia very rarely takes any form of permenent sanctions, Willy on Wheels being the cannonical exception. Correct? Nyarlathotep 17:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It makes a change from repeated RfdAs. :-) --Brian McNeil / talk 17:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, tis' true. Hence my laughter.  :)  Nyarlathotep 17:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting on editing privileges considered harmful
The German Wikipedia uses voting on blocking users, in my experience, this has led to very public and very ugly fights about blocks, and very simplistic remedies. Usually users are blocked for a long term or indefinitely, and in definitely blocks tend to lead to sock puppets and escalation.

Quite simply, if you make it relatively easy to block someone indefinitely, and relatively hard to get back in (in most cases, there will not be a re-vote, and if there is, it will likely fail the 70% threshold), you will frequently block someone indefinitely. Due to the fact that there is no extensive period of evidence collection or argument, you end up with a process that is biased in favor of momentary feelings of "us vs. them", that is, a user who may be temporarily disruptive will quickly find themselves banned for life.

This is against the spirit of the Wikimedia projects, which is to strive for rehabilitation and thoughtful remedies. I think that for issues like this, an arbitration committee like the one used by the English Wikipedia is a much better solution; it is more flexible and less likely to be affected by emotional groupthink. Instead of just saying "You are blocked indefinitely", such a committee can say "You are banned from editing policy pages" or "You are banned from editing articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict", or "You can be instantly blocked for 24 hours if you make a personal attack at an admin's discretion", etc. Such remedies are much more useful for effecting a real change in a user's behavior.

Another fundamental problem is that blocks do not work. Many of the most disruptive users will come back again and again under different usernames (most people have dynamic IPs, and range blocks would be too far reaching), often getting more annoying in every incarnation. Handing out lots of indefinite blocks is likely to lead to many more cases of sock puppetry, subtle vandalism, and generally a climate of paranoia and aggression. Again, in my experience, all this has already happened on the German Wikipedia, where a similar process is being used.

As Amgine points out above, there also used to be a process called Quickpolls on the English Wikipedia for temporarily blocking or desysopping users, especially in edit wars and other cases of disruption. In fact, I invented that process. Unlike the one proposed here, however, it was only meant for short term bans, and coexisted with the arbitration committee. Still, in the way it was implemented, it was a failure, as it led to the aforementioned public fights and division.

So, as someone who once proposed similar mechanisms, I can say with some confidence that this is a Really Bad Idea[TM].--Eloquence 23:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for sharing that with us. Experience is a valuable lesson. What does the English Wikipedia experience with an arbitration committee have to teach us? -Edbrown05 00:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the English Wikipedia ArbCom, for the most part, is working. I'm not very happy with the fact that Jimbo has in the past appointed some people unilaterally, some of whom turned out to be controversial; I do think people on an ArbCom should have the highest possible community support (consensus would be ideal). This ensures that their decisions are respected in the community at large. Furthermore, yearly elections are a necessity; and two years should be the absolute maximum term (some amount of term shifting may be desirable for continuity). An open election process with a strict policy that comments should be limited to a sentence at most seems to be reasonable. "Disendorsements" and similar divisive tactics should be prohibited. I don't mind secret voting, though my intuition is that consensus would be easier to reach in a public election, as users "fall in line" when they see broad support for a candidate.

 * Some people feel the ArbCom is too lenient, but I think that this is exactly the point. If you keep problem users in line with certain decrees, they are still an identifiable part of the community and they can be managed. If you block them indefinitely, they have practically no choice (if they want to continue to participate, which many do) but to turn into sock puppets and trolls. Take Neutralizer as an example. Yes, he can be annoying, but how would you like to deal with a new Neutralizer sock puppet every week? CheckUser helps, but even then you'll have open proxies and other anonymization tools to deal with, and you end up with a climate of fear and paranoia where anyone who behaves in a manner similar to a problem user (whose numbers are only going to grow) is quickly accused of being a sock puppet. Besides, CheckUser is only available to a small minority of users, and often the accusations come before the check can be made.

 * The biggest problem with the process proposed here is that once this kind of thing gets rolling, it is very hard to stop. Wehret den Anfängen.--Eloquence 01:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, everything Eloquence said. ;) BTW, a great deal of psychology research suggests that people are much less continuous over time, and much more the product of their enviroment, than anyone normally admits; although obviously not completely.  Eloquence's view that "inclusively plus more social tools with a lighter touch is the best long term approach to problem users" seems consistant with this.  Nyarlathotep 13:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with Eloquence, which is why I was hesitant to vote here as well. However, if it came this far as to some users thinking that we needed this, obviously something's wrong with our current process.  --MrMiscellanious (talk) – 13:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I also agree with Eloquence: this is a flawed system which should not be implemented unless there is no other recourse. On the other hand, the argument that using this system will result in sockpuppeting while an arbcom will not is clearly mistaken by the experiences on en.wikipedia: persistent problematic users acting in disregard to community norms do so whether they are banned temporarily or permanently, or given limitations. Is anyone actively pushing for arbcom elections on Wikinews, so there might be an alternative recourse? -  Amgine | talk en.WN 19:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

There we go :-) --Eloquence 05:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

title: Wikinews talk:Editors


text:
User talk:58.178.137.89

Welcome
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title: User talk:58.178.137.89


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User talk:Zondor~enwikinews

Hi Zondor.... the page Classifieds was deleted because it violated Wikinews policy regarding advertising. See What Wikinews is not, and note that it specifically says "Wikinews articles are not advertisements. - Borofkin 07:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. Zondor, welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

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Your account will be renamed
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The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Zondor. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Zondor~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

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title: User talk:Zondor~enwikinews


text: File:2005-11-15 IR reform protests Melbourne 01.jpg


text:
FDA ruling on emergency contraceptive pill questioned

November 16, 2005

The independent and nonpartisan US congressional watchdog, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) called the Food and Drug Administration's decision not to allow over-the-counter (OTC) sales of an Emergency Contraceptive pill, "unusual".

Emergency Contraceptive Pills or ECPs ("morning-after" or "next-day" pills ) are used to prevent an unintended pregnancy, following unprotected sexual intercourse. They are objectionable for abortion opponents who consider their use to be a form of abortion, though scientific studies (including those by the FDA) classify them as contraceptives. The pill, called Plan B is manufactured by Barr Laboratories and had been approved earlier by the FDA as a prescription drug.

Barr Laboratories requested that the drug be approved for OTC sale for adults and prescription-only sale for minors. The decision to not approve went against the advice given by the FDA's Joint Advisory Committee and its Review staff and led to a GAO investigation into the decision making process. The investigation was requested by 30 House members and 17 Senators.

The GAO found several anomalies in the decision making process. The rationale used by Dr. Steven Galson, the acting director of the Centre for Drug Evaluation and Research for rejecting the application was novel and did not follow usual FDA practices. The decision was not signed off by the director of the office responsible for the application and the director of the Office of New Drugs, as they disagreed with the "reject" decision. The GAO also found that the FDA's high-level management more involved in reviewing this decision than in other change-to-OTC applications.

The Plan B decision was the only one of 67 proposed prescription to OTC changes to be disapproved, even after advisory committees approved the changes. FDA review staff told the investigators that they were told early in the review process that the decision would be made by high-level management. E-mail and other documents involving the then-FDA Commissioner Mark McClellan were found to have been destroyed "routinely".

The FDA has disagreed with the GAO's finding that the high-level management was more involved in processing this application and that the rationale offered was novel, despite acknowledging that the adolescent cognitive ability rationale was unprecedented in FDA practice. The accounts as to whether the decision to reject was taken prior to the reviews being completed offered to the investigators were conflicting.

The acting director cited concerns about the potential behavioral implications for younger adolescents from OTC marketing of Plan-B, given their supposed lower cognitive ability, and that it was not valid to extrapolate data from older to younger audiences. However, the FDA had not considered similar "potential behavioral implications" for younger users for other OTC-switches and had previously considered it appropriate to extrapolate data from older to younger audiences.


text:
Thailand forces registration of prepaid phones to thwart insurgency

November 15, 2005

In a move aimed at hampering the near-daily bombing attacks in southern Thailand, all owners of prepaid phones are required to register by midnight local time today or face being blocked.

Originally scheduled for implementation at the end of last year, the move was deferred to allow people more time to register their phones. The policy only applies to the three southernmost provinces that border Malaysia — Pattani, Narathiwat, and Yala — formerly the Malay Pattani kingdom.

Thais from other parts of the country with prepaid phones will also be required to register should they wish to visit the region. When doing so their calls will be treated as roaming, a feature of GSM which allows a user to make and receive calls on a network other than that of their service provider.

Many of the bombs used in the south are believed to be detonated by mobile phone, although most of the more than one thousand casualties in the region have been from drive-by shootings and stabbings.

It is reported that 65% of the near half-million prepaid phones in the region that this would impact have been registered. Prepaid phones are commonplace throughout Thailand and estimates put the number in use throughout the whole country at approximately ten million.

Other efforts to deal with the insurgency in the predominantly Muslim area include an announcement yesterday that approximately 20,000 local villagers will be given training and small arms to help defend their villages. Both men and women will be eligible, and those accepted into the programme will be put onto the government payroll.


text:
User talk:Nidhinmathew

Welcome
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title: User talk:Nidhinmathew


text:
User talk:BDevlin~enwikinews

Welcome
BDevlin, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 10:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called BDevlin. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name BDevlin~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:29, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

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text: File:100 5958.jpg

title: File:100 5958.jpg


text:
User talk:Riggermantis~enwikinews

Welcome
Riggermantis, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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 * Discussions need your input
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 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 14:34, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Riggermantis. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Riggermantis~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Riggermantis~enwikinews


text:
User talk:200.167.72.61

Welcome
200.167.72.61, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 14:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:200.167.72.61


text:
User talk:Whq

Welcome
Whq, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 14:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Whq


text:
Mass poultry vaccination planned by China

November 16, 2005

China's Chief Veterinary Office, Jia Youling, has announced that the country plans to take drastic steps to counter avian influenza by attempting to vaccinate its entire poultry stock of 14 billion birds. The move follows a number of reports of the virus spreading within the country and other Asian countries such as Vietnam engaging in culls to try and halt the disease's spread.

Millions of infected birds have been slaughtered in China and despite the spread of the virus it is only today that the World Health Organization has confirmed the first human cases in the country. The cases include at least one fatality, a 24-year-old female poultry worker in the eastern province of Anhui. The other confirmed case is a 9-year-old boy in the central province of Hunai who has since recovered.

It should be noted that these cases are the only documented cases reported. Obtaining truly accurate numbers is a challenge in China and elsewhere because bird flu outbreaks tend to occur in rural communities where there are not good hospital or laboratory services. Even if bird flu is suspected, blood samples have to be sent to one of only 200 specialized laboratories around the world. The cost of identifying and transporting to these labs from rural areas can be prohibitive even if the physicians in those areas are aware of such laboratories. There is little incentive for outbreaks to be reported by farmers, because any confirmation of a bird flu infection will results in the farmer's flock being destroyed and that may destroy the farmer's livelihood.

The officials in Liaoning have reportedly finished vaccinating all 320 million birds in the northeastern province. David Nabarro, the United Nations coordinator for bird and human flu, says such vaccination programs are "the right thing to do" since slaughtering the animals will not work due to the virus being so entrenched in China's birds.

According to Henk Bedekam, the World Health Organization's representative in China, the time of year is favourable to the continuation of the disease. He said that since the virus can survive in the cold, winter outbreaks are to be expected during cold months.

Avian influenza continues to be a very rare disease in humans, and so far only seems to be transmitted to people through direct contact with infected birds. Experts, however, are afraid that the virus will mutate into a strain that will be easily transmitted between humans.

Elsewhere in Asia, the lethal H5N1 strain of the avian flu has infected at least 126 people and killed at least 64 since 2003. WHO spokeswoman Maria Cheng said, however, that there is no increased risk of an influenza pandemic since there has been no observed genetic change in the virus or spread between humans.


text:
Author Vine Deloria dies at 72

November 15, 2005

Native American author and activist Vine Deloria died Sunday. He was 72.

Deloria's books Custer Died For Your Sins and God Is Red came out at the height of the Indian rights movement. Custer Died For Your Sins initiated drastic changes in the way anthropologists and government officials interacted with Native Americans, including the movement to return artifacts to tribal officials.

In addition to writing and lecturing, he was former executive director of the National Congress of American Indians and a political science professor at the University of Colorado.

title: Author Vine Deloria dies at 72


text:
AOL to launch online TV service

November 15, 2005

AOL and have announced plans to allow subscribers to be allowed to watch thousands of episodes of dozens of vintage shows online and for free. In2TV will be launched in January 2006, providing full episodes of many classic shows, such as ', ', ', ', ', ' and .

In2TV will be offered exclusively through AOL, and will not be syndicated on TV. Each show will have two minutes of commercials for every thirty of programming. The new AOL service differs from the new iTunes Video service in that iTunes offers only new programming. iTunes also sells shows at $1.99 per episode as opposed to offering programs that are fully advertising supported.

In addition to full-length episodes, In2TV will provide interactive quizzes, games, and trivia. The TV series will be orgainized into genre-themed channels, some of which are:

 * Starchives - Episodes featuring current stars before they became truly famous, such as on Growing Pains
 * Punchlines - Classic comedy clips
 * TV Karaoke - Sing-alongs to favorite TV-show themes
 * Classic Crème de la Crème - Showcases of some of the most memorable episodes of a show
 * Betcha Didn’t Know!: The Ultimate TV Quiz - Allows fans to test their knowledge of trivia
 * RetroRunway - Classic fashion from TV series
 * StarFavs - Some of the stars' favorite episodes
 * Where Are They Now? - Find out where the stars are now

"This service will bring an unprecedented collection of popular TV series to a totally new platform, revolutionizing the distribution of television programming," said Eric Frankel, President, Warner Bros. Domestic Cable Distribution.

Many companies are now making efforts to avoid going the way of the music industry, by preemptively providing legal, cheap methods of viewing TV episodes online. The notion that online delivery can be particularly advantageous to vintage television shows was sparked by an article that appeared a few days after Apple announced its iTunes video service. The essay titled "Can iTunes Resurrect Old Time TV?" made a business case that older television content squeezed out of traditional television delivery schemes can be revived by new online revenue models.

title: AOL to launch online TV service


text:
Farmers clash amidst high security at APEC summit in South Korea

November 16, 2005

In the lead-up to the APEC forum, thousands of South Korean farmers clashed with police on Tuesday in the capital, Seoul, to demand the withdrawal of a bill to open up the country's rice market.

Local police said that about 40 farmers were arrested. Protesters drove back ranks of riot police in full combat gear as they marched towards the national assembly.

Police put the number of protesters and farm activists at about 10,000.The farmers were stopped just short of the assembly and entered in a standoff with the police, who used water cannon to subdue the farmers and disband the protest.

"No to WTO, No to APEC, No to BUSH," the protesters chanted. A representative for the farmers said one activist suffered a severe eye injury. Three police buses were burned in the protest. South Korean media reports that 70 protesters and 10 police were injured in the action.

Busan Mayor, Hur Nam-sik, said the protests should be contained. "I cannot block all the protests and demonstrations at APEC at all," he said. "If the protests and demonstrations happen, it has to be in an orderly way, not to harm the image and progress of APEC."

South Korean farmers regularly take to the streets demanding protection for the domestic rice market from imports. The farmers oppose government's plans for wider liberalization of the nation's rice market.

"The government must come up with realistic policies for the rice market and the farming industry to allow farmers to live comfortably," said the Korean Advanced Farmers Federation.

The rally follows the death of a South Korean farmer, who allegedly committed suicide last Friday in protest of APEC policies.

About 2,000 South Korean farm activists plan to travel to Hong Kong next month to protest during a meeting of global trade ministers.

Highest Security Alert
Amidst the street clashes, South Korea has taken steps to insure against potential terrorist attacks at the forum. Civil and military forces in Busan are on the highest alert with some 37,000 deployed in the area.

Twenty one international leaders, including US President George W. Bush, Chinese President Hu Jintao, Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi and Russian President Vladimir Putin set to attend.

Trade and foreign ministers have begun two days of talks ahead of the main summit on Friday and Saturday. Authorities have designated security zones that will be off-limits to protesters.

Over 900 foreigners with criminal records have been banned from entering South Korea during the summit period. Police say 400 others will be deported if they engage in illegal demonstrations.

Organizers said they expected thousands of demonstrators to criticize the international trade policies, which they say favors rich countries over poorer ones. An anti-APEC rally in Seoul at the weekend drew around 20,000 people.

The main security focus during the summit is terrorist threats. Although there have been no specific threats, South Korea has sent troops to Iraq and was mentioned as a potential target by al-Qaeda.

US military declined to comment on whether their 32,500 American troops based in South Korea were helping bolster security for the APEC summit

Ships will be blocked from entering the area, officials said. Anti-aircraft missiles have been deployed around the city, and a no-fly zone designated above the summit venues.

Police have increased security at subway stations, department stores and cinemas. Thousands of volunteers nationwide are monitoring public transport for suspicious activity, and customs and security checks at all international airports have been increased.


text:
User talk:209.234.77.198

Deleting Recording Studios On Your Kitchen Table
Hi Tom Poe,

Wikinews does not accept either press releases or reviews, as is explained in What Wikinews is not and Content guide. The article at the time I viewed it appeared to be a review written by someone associated with the product (also known as a press release) which qualifies under #6 in the Speedy deletion guidelines as advertising.

If there were a news event associated with the product and which was the focus of the article, this would not have qualified for a speedy deletion. I may have deleted in error - we all make mistakes and I more often than many - and if so the article can be restored. If I've made a mistake, please leave me a message on my talk page. - Amgine 19:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * News stories focus on a single current event or phenomenon. A review such as yours does not focus on an event, but on a product. An example of another not-for-profit organization which has a product is a political party, which produces candidates and platforms; we do not allow their reviews either. The spring haircut event *was* discussed as possibly a review or support, except the article was written after the event and focused on the event itself.
 * News is factual. And, incidentally, all factual statements must be sourced from a qualified source, one which is considered unlikely to be biased in its assessment of the facts.
 * Articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Generally speaking, it is not possible to write a review or an editorial which complies with NPOV.
 * News is relevant. On this point alone your article meets the content guidelines; it is relevant. This is not enough to overcome its other shortcomings, in my opinion.

 * Please realise I am not making a judgement about your article itself; it seemed well-written and reasonable. I am making a judgement as to how it fits the Wikinews policies and guidelines as they have been created by the community at large; I've personally argued in favour of reviews. Based on those policies and guidelines your article, as it was written, would qualify for speedy deletion.
 * A different article, perhaps based on a software version release, or inclusion in a noteworthy distribution/industry event, or some other news event, could certainly be written and published at Wikinews. And I encourage you to write it. - Amgine 20:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:209.234.77.198


text:
User talk:130.111.98.244

Welcome
130.111.98.244, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Stub articles
I'm afraid other people aren't likely to fill out the one-line articles you're submitting. You might do better to concentrate on one article and try and fill it out to three or four paragraphs. Please refer to the guidelines and instructions above for a better idea about how to become a valuable wikinews contributor. Brian McNeil / talk 20:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Please make sure to add sources
Please remember to source all articles you create. Happy editing. Bawolff ☺☻ 21:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm glad to see your enthusiasm, but here's a few things to remember when writing articles for wikinews. First, Cite your sources, second, if you whish to add a story to the big list of published articles. Add  to the bottom of them, and put apropriate categories on them. for example with the 82 dead in Iraq story, you would:

 * 1) develop it alot more. Its not ready for prime time yet.
 * 2) Add apropriate categories (ie ) to bottom
 * 3) Once its ready add

It will automaticly apear in apropriate lists. I know its alot to remember, but it makes all the portals update automaticly. Happy editing. These are the most basic policies. for full list see Wikinews:Policies and Guidelines. Bawolff ☺☻ 21:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Nestle Baby Milk
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please elaborate. --Munchkinguy 03:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:130.111.98.244


text:
User talk:Kepirouge

Welcome
Kepirouge, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 20:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kepirouge


text:
User talk:ChicagoMind

Welcome
ChicagoMind, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 20:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:ChicagoMind


text:
User talk:130.111.98.241

Welcome
130.111.98.241, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Thanks for starting several good article ideas! You may want to focus on writing one article at a time, and give it a good start; people don't usually want to write articles you think should be written but which you aren't willing to at least get part of the way there. Use some of the resources above for guidance on working with templates, categories, and more, and if you have questions you might check in irc if anyone can help you out. - Amgine 20:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I hope most of the articles get expanded wikinews is great. 130.111.98.241 20:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I was there with Biletnikoff
Hey guy; how about jumpin' on this train and helpin' me kick some yankee butt? Neutralizer 01:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:130.111.98.241


text:
User talk:Gcbinc

Welcome
Gcbinc, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 20:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gcbinc


text:
User talk:Tompoe

Welcome
Tompoe, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 20:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Deleted article
Hi Tom,

I'm afraid I can't help you with the deleted article, and I can't see it as I am not an administrator. If it was a press release it is highly likely to be deleted on sight. The problem is — no matter how noble the intent of the release — it is copywritten and written to represent the views of one party. Thus not at all likely to correspond to the NPOV policy. Brian McNeil / talk 21:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Amgine made an attempt to address your issue with the article being deleted here, which was where you originally created it from. Don't know if you saw that or not, but I pretty much agree with it and believe that the problem with press releases is they are one sided, not neutral. Brian McNeil / talk 22:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If you are looking for somewhere that will take a press release, try http://www.pressbox.co.uk/ Brian McNeil / talk 22:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Editing
Do not intimidate others, or feel you are "superior" to anyone here. Read the style guide, be courteous. If not, find another site (or I will be forced to block you in accordiance with the blocking policy). --Mrmiscellanious 22:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tompoe


text:
User:Tompoe

I currently am a Director with Open Studios. Open Studios is a 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to replenishing our precious public domain. We accomplish this mission by assisting communities to build and operate community-based recording studios. A digital age recording studio can be little more than a low-end PC, loaded with state-of-the-art audio and video software from Stanford University's Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics. With such a computer, users are able to make high quality CDs, DVDs, tv and radio shows, even full-featured films. By helping inner-city neighborhoods, rural communities, and villages in our country and around the world, we will have enabled users to record their music, art, literature, and package those creations in a way that could only be done through expensive recording facilities in the past.

Our work primarily engages us as a global Help Desk, walking through the steps needed to create and operate successful recording studios that typically sit on someone's kitchen table. We think we give new meaning to the phrase, "Do it, yourself".

If you have any questions about any of the articles, or just want to say hello, send me an email. You can find my email address by visiting our web site at: http://www.ibiblio.org/studioforrecording/

Thanks, Tom

title: User:Tompoe


text:
User talk:Jackintucson

Welcome
Jackintucson, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Brian McNeil / talk 21:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jackintucson