text:
Talk:Australia sends more troops to Afghanistan

Deployed from late July
I'm not sure what that means - maybe "from now until late July", or "in late July"? Both sources say the same in an indirect quote style. Since I don't know what that phrase means exactly, I couldn't clarify it.

But I did arrange the sentences into what I hope are more reasonable paragraphs.

The "200 more soldiers" fact is mentioned twice by the original author, though not so blatently redundant - I left it as-is.

Karen 08:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC) Karen

npov?
Just want to bring up the possibility that the article's words "to assist the people of Afghanistan in consolidating their embrace of democracy" and "expand peacekeeping and reconstruction operations" presents an extremely favourable picture of the involvement of the troops. Is there another pov available? Do any Australians think its not a good thing to be shoring up an opium economy? Certainly Condi Rice's categorization of the country as becoming a "narcotics state" could be mentioned? All is not moving forward well in Afghanistan so perhaps the story should not be giving such an impression; at least I am wondering about these aspects?Neutralizer 16:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ok, rather than tag the article, I have tried to npov it. Were Australia sending troops to help the North Korean government I am sure we would mention some of the bad things going on inside that country so we should do the same thing here with Afghanistan,imo. Neutralizer 18:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how the drug cultivation issue is directly related to Australia sending more troops. Are you privy to information I am unaware of that these troops will be involved in opium destruction, or are you just seeking to blame the coalition for the situation which is the responsibility of the warlords? --Brian McNeil / talk 20:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

To state that the "87% of world's opium production" is a failure of coalition troops seems a bit misleading when considering that world production dropped in 2005 along with Afghanistan's production from 2004. Additionally, the growth has not been "dramatic" throughout the years (POV added by contributor's use of "dramatic") but the growth has been rather steady and consistent, falling off slightly in 2005. I don't see how there is any correlation between troop involvement and over-all production. Prices have increased, possibly due to decrease in supply. Another factor is that poppy cultivation may produce other products besides drugs, giving more weight to the fresh opium figure, which translates more directly into heroin production. Karen 22:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Global opium poppy cultivation is estimated to have fallen by some 16% in 2005 and opium production by some 3% as a result of the decline in opium cultivation and production in Afghanistan. The proportion of Afghanistan in global opium production is likely to remain close to 87%.

Additionally, because the article is worded to say that the troops intend "to assist the people of Afghanistan in consolidating their embrace of democracy" and "expand peacekeeping and reconstruction operations", as Prime Minister John Howard's words, not ours, quoting Kazai (even if the facts do not bear him out) is acceptable. The article quotes as they stand now seem balanced, however, the writer's interpretations of the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2005 should be called into question. Karen 22:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that the article is balanced. The connection with the troops is that the troops,in effect,provide stability and security for the status quo. If you go back to the last year before western troops came in, you will see that opium production was 135 tonnes (in 2001) compared to 4,100 tonnes in 2005; about 3% of the world's consumption rather than 87%. The bottom line is that our troops are stabalizing an economy/country which the US State Dept said is "verging on a narcotics state"...and the real question is, why are we not spraying the poppy fields of Afghanistan like we spray the coca fields of Columbia? The other distrurbing element is that although Howard puts a positive spin on the situatuion, our troops could also be seen as proping up and providing security for the largest drug cartel in the world. Neutralizer 22:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line is - you're agreeing with yourself only that the article is now balanced. You still have to explain your POV usage of "dramatically increased" (not mentioned in the source you added). Generating drama instead of reporting facts is what you're trying to decrease, yet your wording isn't supported by facts. The increase has been largely linear and consistent, not dramatic. The 2005 figure is lower than 2004. The 2001 figure is not representative of previous years and should be considered an anomoly - you can guess that it points to instability before troops arrived, but you can't say that troops caused the large jump between 2001 and 2002, except possilby by inference that the troops restored stability in the region and the usual (non-dramatic) growth continued. The source you added states that the production is inconsistent, and the regional break-down shows that production moves from one area to another. You'd have to show where the troops are/were and reference that with area increases to conclude that troops result in increased production in the area. It may actually be that troops are doing their job and producers are simply moving from one area to another. The editoral statements you make are based on a narrow scope of reference to your source. It's one thing to include the statements of others, but your additions go beyond that - and with limited factual basis. If you remove your "dramatically" statement, and not imply that there was growth in 2005 (2004 to 2005 was a reduction), it would be more factual. You might want to just state the report says "The proportion of Afghanistan in global opium production is likely to remain close to 87%.". I could live with that - more facts, less "drama".

This is assuming that there's a concensus that the inclusion of the report is directly related to more troops being sent - which is what this story is really about. I don't mind the addition of the source because it's interesting background on the country -- but I do mind when the interpretation of a limited section of the data is used to support a particular point of view, and words like "dramatically" are used to describe linear growth. Will you re-word that section, or are my objections reasonable enough to allow me to re-word it without further objection? Karen 03:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

INTERESTING!
(Whilst my personal bias is that there should be no Aussie troops at all in Afghanistan - or anywhere for that matter!), its amusing to see the way a simple wikinews report can twist up a story into something it is not, or was intended. The story is about the AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT SENDING 200 EXTRA TROOPS TO AFGHANISTAN. Its a quick, much shorter contibution than my usual stuff. My initial entry has nothing to do with Opium, nor was it indended as a critique. More like an precursor, based on the PM's announcement. Indeed, when I came back to add some more details, comments and sources, and to flesh it out with more responses from other politicians and Anti-war groups, I was taken aback at the direction this is taking. But thats WIKINEWS for ya, I guess... Have fun bashing the story around :) --elliot_k 07:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Got a laugh from me, Elliot K! -Edbrown05 07:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I moved around some sentences into what I hoped were better structured paragraphs, then saw the addition of the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2005 source and actually read it (That's right, all 146 pages of it - a 20 minute download from my dialup connection). The production growth doesn't seem to correlate with the arrival of coalition forces, nor do the increased troops to increased production. Since there was a production drop in 2005, more troops weren't send for the reason of increased production. The connection just isn't quite there. The Afghanistan president's comments/complaints regarding troops in general are a somewhat reasonable addition to the story, but the data and conclusion in the new source just doesn't call for the extra "drama". The simple fact is that production is increasing linearly (not dramatically).

There might be another story behind this regarding troops stabalizing the area allowing for greater production and/or causing producers to move elsewhere in Afghanistan and work harder. But that's another story, and more facts need to be found before editorial comments like "Since the coalition invasion, Afghan opium production has increased dramatically each year to the point where Afghanistan produced 87% of the world's opium in 2005." can be made. The linear growth started before troops arrived, and the growth isn't reported as dramatic by any source. The implication that 2005 is a peak year is unfounded - 2004 was greater. The only shred of truth is the 87% figure from the report: The proportion of Afghanistan in global opium production is likely to remain close to 87%. It also has this thesis statement: ... opium poppy cultivation remains a highly dynamic phenomenon in Afghanistan. It's not going away over night, and its growth sure doesn't seem to be caused by troops.

Last year in the story U.N. reports Afghan opium production is up again, the statement "The November 2004 annual reports put out by UNODC show that Afghanistan opium production has been increasing each year since the coalition invasion." was true, but the 2005 report shows a decline, and the statement doesn't mention that production also increased every year before troops arrived. The conclusion we're supposed to make is that troops cause production increase? The real truth seems to be that there's a steady growth, and the current troops aren't effective, either because of limited number or efforts are on a broader scope - but that discovery should be in another story, and be motivated by facts instead of assumed by an editorializing journalist. Neutralizer can either read the source and try to defend his reasons for his point of view, or edit the one statement that I believe isn't supported by his source. Otherwise, I'll have to edit his addition to this story for NPOV and hope everyone can live with it. Karen 08:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

This has become slightly ridiculous, folks. Personally, I think the addition of Opium production issues has little to do with the initial story of more Aussie troops being sent. ie: The troops are NOT going to Kabul for opium - at least thats not what the official Government line is: "The troops would have specific objectives, which would not include intervention in domestic matters such as the cultivation and sale of opium," Prime Minister John Howard said.

Prove me wrong. But from my research, its about security. Its about insurgency. Its about Taliban recurrance. Its about an increase in suicide bombings, and assassinations of people co-operating with the government. As Kim Beazley (Australian federal opposition leader) said today: "I think it's the right thing to do. Afghanistan is terror central. We got involved in Afghanistan after the 9-11 events and we evoked the ANZAS alliance and we sent troops."

See the Google news pool on this issue.

According to people on the ground, such attacks are expected to increase in the conming months. Half of the 200 personnell will be engineers and technicians. They will be sent into the southern Afghan province of Oruzgan as a part of a Dutch-led reconstruction team. Opium and Australian troop increases are clearly two separate stories, and should be treated as such. Have fun. :) --elliot_k 13:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Addressing the points
use of the word "dramatically". That word has been removed, which is reasonable, although I still think it applies overall. I will now correct the 2005-2004 reference.

Re; Karen's comment above"writer's interpretations of the Afghanistan Opium Survey 2005 should be called into question."; I will address that now. I have some stock market research experience and the trend line is what is usually a good indication of the direction something is going in. A valid trend line is best when applied over a multi-year period. The most illuminating aspect of the 2005 UNODC report,imo, is the Hectares in cultivation chart on page 11 (title Afghanistan;opium poppy cultivation from 1986-2005) which includes a heavy black 5 year trend line; you can see how the line really takes off upward since the coalition invasion and, according to Kazai, the coalition took over responsibilities for controlling/eradicating opium production. So, the fact is, total opium cultivation and production over the past 4 years(since we charged in) is much higher than ever before and has broken out upwards from the "linear" levels Karen accurately refers to between 1993 and 2000.

Another point is that the Taliban banned opium production entirely in 2001 and that is given by everyone as the reason for the miniscule production. I submit that if the Taliban could stop production almost entirely; then so could the most powerful countries on earth. I also will again make the point that Afghanistan's poppy fields are out in the open and could be sprayed much more easily than the coca fields hidden in the jungles of Columbia where we spray aggressively.

What is that expression for "the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer"? Anyway, the most obvious answer, to me, is that the coalition doesn't really want to stop the opium production in Afghanistan..this could be because the inflow of over 2 billion dollars per year helps the Afghan economy which helps present a "successful" picture of the entire coalition involvement...but the point is...it's a success built upon one of the dirtiest businesses in the world which the report says kills over 100,000 people per year (directly from Afghan heroin).

If Howard's remarks about the successes in Afghanistan are in the article, then I think reference to the dirty underbelly of Afghanistan as a country and economy must also be reported.

The facts of this report and others show that our troops are being used (among other things)to provide security for a country the US State department said is becoming a "narcotics state"*.That is an important fact.

87% is not a number that can be ignored. Afghanistan is,by any definition a "narcotics state"; so that pure and simple fact must be reported when our servicemen are going there to support the government of that "narcotics state"...just as if we were sending troops to support the N.Korean government we would be mentioning the nuclear and "axis of evil" problems in that government/country and not just reporting that the troops were going there. Neutralizer 13:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * "The troops would have specific objectives, which would not include intervention in domestic matters such as the cultivation and sale of opium," Prime Minister John Howard said. See my point above... --elliot_k 13:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

comment; the fact Howard can get away with calling 87%of the world's supply a "domestic issue" shows that most of the world doesn't know about the 87%...because it's not being reported. Neutralizer 14:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

''Today, the definition of 'national security' has been significantly broadened. The Australian Government articulated its understanding of security in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade 1997 White Paper, In the National Interest and the 2003 White Paper Advancing the National Interest. These stated that security involves the preservation of the "state's capacity for independent decision-making, thereby ensuring that it can pursue national objectives." This is a definition that opens national security threats to include non-military threats ranging from fraud on and corruption of financial institutions, illegal migration, illicit drugs and other forms of transnational crime, to pandemics and environmental degradation.'' from the AFP Its great to see people making these real connections and not waiting to be told that they are so weather johny says so or not --Whywhywhy 13:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The main point that has been raised is that opium production is not related to these 200 troops as they will not be involved in activities aimed at curbing production. Consequently I believe that all the material related to opium production should be moved into its own article, where details of which forces are involved in anti-drug activites are given. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * This is also my point; the troops are the security FOR the ongoing opium production..in effect, our troops provide a more secure and stable environment for an efficient and unbothered full speed ahead illegal drug cartel. Imagine a drug infested Rave with off-duty police providing the security and doing nothing about open and widespread use of illegal drugs..that's the picture..and the biggest part of the story,imo. Neutralizer 13:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * This "Rave" analogy(above) is about as good as I can do to show that the coalition doing nothing about the dope other than providing security for the venue is a big part of the story. If nobody else agrees with me, then, so be it. I have to go out now. Neutralizer 14:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

One Last Stab at it
Ok; my wife said I could get online for 5 minutes before we go out. First of all, Thank you Karen for taking so much time. The other aspect I dared not even mention was the CIA report in 2003 which said opium trafficking is the #1 source of funds for al-Queda(hence; but not doing anything about the opium cultivation, we help the terrorists get stronger); but if you'd like links to that info let me know. Here is my last stab at it;

1. Very few of us think of Afghanistan as a "narcotics state"...but after reading the US State department report and the 87% of the world's supply info; we should be starting to accept that.

2. Once we view Afghanistan as the major source of heroin in the world (95% of the heroin in London comes from Afghanistan); then the analogy below comes into play.

Let's imagine that there is a county named "Victoria County" somewhere in Australia where 87% of Australia's heroin is produced out in the open and likely most of the heroin in your town (say Sydney) originates. Your mayor announces he is sending 30 of your local Sydney police officers to Victoria county to provide security for that county and also announces, as if it's a "good" thing" that those officers will not do anything to try to deal with the heroin problems...if they see a huge field of poppies being harvested for opium; they will just walk on by; because in your mayor's words "That's a domestic matter for Victoris County". How would you be reacting? How would the local Sydney papers be reacting? Neutralizer 15:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * My last bit on this story. A couple of things. I agree with myself - and Brian - that the story is not about Opium or domestic issues. Its about what the Government, and other commentators actually said. Read the Headline again. Australia sends more troops to Afghanistan. Personally, I can't stand John Howard and his sychophantic power-broking corporate-lawyer-wanker government and want all the troops home immediately. Forcing people to don a uniform and go and kill people in anybody's war is moronic-gutless cannon-fodder gloryism. But my other writing in the other commons speaks with such tones. BUT! However this is WIKINEWS! Where NEUTRAL POINTS OF VIEW prevail. Neutrality is primary. Speculation here is not journalism.

 * YES! There is a VERY GOOD analytical story on the Opium issue here. Global Smack is big business. There is unlimited demand for the stuff. And Afghanistan are on a good wicket with poppy. Someone, perhaps Neautraliser should chase it up and do a fleshed out feature on this very issue. But the story here is about WHO is going WHERE, WHEN and WHAT people have said about it.

 * Yeah mate, we can speculate about Aussies with guns in Chinooks burning poppies in the fields, but you need to get SOMEONE ELSE to say this - not the reporter. WIKINEWS is not about assumptions. We need experts or other stakeholders to express it. We do some research and find someone else who confirms it. Then we publish the story. NEUTRALITY is our Godhead.

 * Thanks for all the passionate discussion about what I had imagined to be a very slight media brief. X --elliot_k 15:29, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok; but I am very disappointed in Australian people...I always thought you were tough and mean and self-determined?..and the bottom line is; 1. The CIA says that Afghan opium funds terrorism and 2; Afghan opium production has skyrocketed since we took over the place so C; by sending Aussie troops to shore up a "narcotics state" we are funding the other side and our bravest,and most sincere, and most saddening, most naive, are being killed and crippled,and that is exactly what the elitist crazies want ....and we, you and me, should never,never,never go along with it. Neutralizer 20:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think Elliot has proven himself a good representative of the Auzzies. He's reporting on issues relevant to them – and the rest of the world – and he's doing so within the project guidelines for wikinews.  He's got a very good point in his above comment on the opium issue, namely that there is a story.  His original brief is somewhat time-critical whereas the opium one isn't.  So I will make another suggestion (yes, it involves removing the opium material from this).  Move that story over to the prepared area and look for additional material and something like a report being issued to justify publication.  Treat it as a longer-term project and take into account some of the issues such as where in the country the opium production is taking place.  Make some phone calls to academics or experts, Amgine can probably tell you what departments would be good to ask about the issue.  If it ends up a bit too editorial, then you want to go back to Elliot and ask about Indymedia.  IIRC he's also an admin there and they do not have such strict guidelines as NPOV.  You'd also (currently) reach a larger audience. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Having re-read the comment and noticed you'd not be about again Neutralizer, I've moved the opium issue to it's own story. Story preparation/Afghanistan's role in the heroin trade, I suspect the title will need changed, but you'll probably need a bit more material before you can decide what to change it to. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

yer thanks for dumbing down our news and removing relevant information.--Whywhywhy 02:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've started UK troops will not fight opium in Afghanistan. Knock yourselves out. - Borofkin 03:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Aussies are not stupid
1.The CIA said that opium/heroin production is the #1 source of funding for terrorism. 2.Australia is sending 200 more troops to Afghanistan to "fight terrorism" and they are specifically ordered NOTto interfere in opium/heroin production. 3.If Australia buys that; then this story is closed and published; but I can't believe the Auzzies will suck up this bullshit. Neutralizer 20:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)]

Some Aussies are...
G,day again Neutralizer - well the 'aussie reporters' are right here! And I'm one of them. I may be perhaps too late to comment on this now, but I will anyway...

I'm sorry you are "disappointed in Australian people." I am too. Even though you may have "always thought we were tough and mean and self-determined," we hardly ever are. As a nation we follow the USA into war like the arse-lickers we are. We are a racist nation - with a racist constitiution. We stole Aboriginal children from their mothers arms; we vote for leaders who jail innocent persecuted refugees and their children for years on end in deserts and on remote islands; we blindly obey authority; we committed suicide in our thousands at Gallipoli; in many respects australia is still in the dark ages, mate. I could go on...

Whether we "suck up this bullshit" - or not - is beside the point entirely. As an individual human I personally despise what the USA, the Australian Government and all else who supported the illegal, murderous Afghanistan (and Iraq) invasions. I protest daily about it. I am ASHAMED to be Australian right now.

BUT! Bear in mind however, that this here media portal is WIKINEWS. Our personal bias should be thrown overboard when reporting any news events here - NPOV: it's like in the contract man.

As I hinted at earlier, my very own personal (and actively hostile elsewhere) bias towards the (in my humble opinion) racist and corporate-lovin, militaristic-sychophantic John Howard Federal government is to be overlooked at WIKINEWS. But we CAN report on what others say.

Feel free to posit yr more opinionated global and local injustices to any indymedia.org website. Theres one near you: List of Indymedia sites. It's Open Publishing - without a stringent code of ehtics that WIKINEWS offers. However, there are indymedia |editorial polices and each local cell in the network has a different take on it - but the idea is that YOU ARE THE MEDIA. Bias is cool, and encouraged. We get a bunch of tin-fil hat wearers though! Many feel that Wikinews is far superior in terms of journalistic credibility because of the hardcore NPOV policy. I tend to agree. But for opinionated passionate truth-tellings you can't go past an Indymedia site: ''Indymedia is a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth... Don't hate the Media, Become the Media!''

I'm glad the Opium issue is being followed up in a separate story though. Good work, and thanks to all who have contributed to this issue. --elliot_k 10:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Personally i support sending troops to afghanistan but i also support the drugs link. If we are not allowed to make these sort of links in articles reporting on major issue is useless in wikinews. Ima sure we will be reading about this link in the next few weeks. --Whywhywhy 12:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Nobody is saying "don't make the links". We just need to do it with journalistic credibility. Surely thats what this project (wikinews) is all about. Sure we can make assumptions, draw some lines - yet we must ask the questions. DO make the links but let the experts tell you the stuff.

For Wikinews: "We strive at all times to meet the policy of using neutral point of view, ensuring our reporting is as fair as possible. Furthermore, everything we write is cited, to maintain the highest standards of reliability. Our policy is to omit opinion and commentary in our articles — if you want to tell the world what you think, try blogging." Or |Indymedia! Rock. --elliot_k 18:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Ask Howard?
Maybe a Wikinews person could email Prime Minister John Howard [form here ] and ask if there's any truth to the links being made between the Afghanistan opium industry and Australia's involvement in the recent deployment of 200 more troops to the region? Then ask the Greens, Labour and Dems etc... --elliot_k 18:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Where are the Aussie reporters??
."The troops would have specific objectives, which would not include intervention in domestic matters such as the cultivation and sale of opium," Prime Minister John Howard said. Can you believe this man is getting away with insulting the Aussie public by referring to 87% of the world's supply of heroin as a "domestic matter"?? Where are the Australian reporters? Neutralizer 21:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutralizer's removal/objection
I hope my latest edits have addressed your concerns, Neutralizer. --MrMiscellanious (talk) – 21:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Original source material
I've added the original source for the PM's statement in the opening paragraph - he said it during a press conference in Canberra. I'd like to see us start using original sources (media releases, transcripts of interviews and press conferences, etc) rather than other news outlets. When we get news from other outlets it is filtered by their reporters. The media releases and transcripts are the original sources. Have a look at Portal:Australia/Original_reporting_in_Sydney (it really applies to all of Australia) for links to government media releases and transcripts.

Regarding the opium issue, if we wanted to include it in this article, someone could give a Labor minister or Greens senator a ring, inform them of the observations about opium that we have made here, and ask them what they think. If they criticise the government for ignoring or trivialising the opium problem, then you have your quote. This is basically what I did in Australian government accused of hypocrisy over World Court statement. Nobody accused the Australian government of hypocricy until I rang them up and asked them about it. Be bold, make some calls! You'll be suprised at how seriously they will take you. - Borofkin 23:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you Borofkin! (note to self) We must start asking questions to get answers. -Edbrown05 03:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Ditto; thanks Borofkin. Neutralizer 12:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Would Edward R. Murrow's reports
on Senator McCarthy have been appropriate for wikinews? (note; all of this is in response to Elliott's comments above)If not, then I suggest we drop all reference to "journalism" as Murrow is generally accepted as the best (journalist) that ever lived. I really don't read the NPOV policy the way some do. I think that if the passion or outrage or even pov is expressed by the story itself, rather than the contributors; then that's just fine; I find the story of our troops walking by blossoming poppy fields to be outrageous; but that, to me does not contravene npov.
 * The way I look at it is that I start with this from [NPOV]"The neutral point of view policy states that one should write articles without bias, representing all views fairly"...now to me this story as it was originally was POV because it didn't include any opposite views. Now with the Greens comments, it's more npov, but is still leaving more of the weight of the article saying that the soldiers going to Afghanistan is good for the people of Afghanistan. I think the opium references would have helped to show the other opinion which is that the soldiers are actually doing more harm to the population than good. Neutralizer 04:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Neutralizer, I agree that with some comments by the greens the npov is clarified more. But the article simply states what others have said - and not the reporters opinion. And thats the crux here. Your and my opinion are beside the point here. Wikinews is journalism. Wikinews is not opinion and commentary on the news. It is the news. --elliot_k 04:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Blogs and Indymedia presented as opposite to Wikinews
I think that this is an overused and inaccurate argument which serves the status quo of media mediocrity...I just coined a new word "mediacrity". It is silly for any of us to sit back and tell someone else their contributions are appropriate for blogs etc. In fact, when I first read this article, it reminded me of an army recruitment poster (which is a blog,I think)...but that is neither here nor there because all of our articles should be worked on by a bunch of people and if 2 are coming at it like bloggers from the opposite pov; that'll make for a great NPOV, I think. We just have to make sure the final product isn't a blog, like this one here is; Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq which is a blatant "blog" by the US prosecutors. I tried to show it is a blog, but got no support...but if you really look at that article, it's nothing but the prosecutors' POV. Neutralizer 04:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Wikinews is not a soapbox. It is not a theatre of war, or of debate. It is also not opposite of Blogs or Indymedia: it has a different set of goals and guidelines for achieving those goals. All of these forms of media have value and place. But Wikinews is not a blog, nor is it Indymedia. To write here you have to accept the guidelines, and goals, the community has set for itself. -  Amgine | talk en.WN 04:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Neutralizer, It may well be an "overused and inaccurate argument" to you, but thats the way it goes. You are really in the wrong place if you want to write opinion pieces. I don't understand your point about an army recruitment poster being a 'blog'? Sometimes news is only the prosecutors' POV. --elliot_k 05:02, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

 * NPOV says it all; alerting us all that when articles are written from an anglo/american centric point of view we are breaching NPOV. I agree with what Amgine just said "To write here you have to accept the guidelines, and goals, the community has set for itself" as well as what Elliot has said "Wikinews is not opinion and commentary on the news"; I just think that many of our articles,without the contributors even realizing it, are unbalanced in favour of the Anglo American centric point of view and those articles are then a soapbox for Anglo American political and government officials. Karen said at one point that this article's quotes had come to a point where they were evenly balanced; I think she is very correct in identifying that as something we should aim for; equalization of quotes. I think that NPOV is saying that is the objective to go for; when there is more than one position in the world on an issue, we should try to present both sides. Going back to Edward Murrow; when he presented his blistering reports about Sen. McCarthy, he gave McCarthy the opprtunity for rebuttal; but with our article Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq I was not allowed a factual rebuttal on the article page; and that article ended up being completely a one-sided opinion piece..that opinion being the opinion of the prosecuting arm of the US Gov. and only their statements "quotes" are in the article. We all want NPOV in accordance with our guidelines; but those guidelines insist that The policy says that "an article should fairly represent all, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct." Right now this article (Australian troops) is really just fine in terms of NPOV; but this one Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq certainly isn't. At the very least we should have inserted references to the times the US Gov's allegations have been 100% wrong and have included fabricated evidence;e.g.Brandon Mayfield; so I feel that I am the most aggressive supporter of ourNPOV guidelines, especially in confronting what our NPOV policy identifies as the "ongoing problem" of;anglo/american centric point of view. In my opinion, if you want to identify people who are writing opinion pieces, then I suggest you look at the many opinion pieces that are being published here which express only the opinion of anglo/american government officials....those are the articles which often get through here completely empty of any NPOV...and this article started out exactly that way.

Here is my proof
This article was published like this; before I made an edit or comment;Is it more or less NPOV now? I rest my case.

I am a strident defender of our NPOV policy; it's just that a few contributors do not see the POV when anglo/american centric point of view reports come in from the Howard or Bush or Blair teams and they imagine POV in non-anglo/american centric point of view articles about things as objective/factual as increases in opium production. Neutralizer 12:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't see why the need to rehash this issue on this particular talk page. The opium issue was raised again in this article 2 days after this one was published.  The AP report I dug up and offered on the talk page explained why they're not spraying - Hamid Karzai said they weren't allowed to due to the herbicides posing a health risk.  It also covers what measures are being taken, which didn't really sound like much.  My reading of your comments above was that you wanted to make an editorial statement by linking the deployment with the drug issue.  --Brian McNeil / talk 15:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I can understand the assumption that I wanted to make an editorial statement; but I was glad to get the Karzai health care concern(remember I asked for help in finding sources re; the non-spraying issue) and I feel the Karzai comments made for a much more complete article and I had never seen those comments before; I really appreciated that little nugget. I am really trying not to make editorial statements; but I have more work to do in that regard. The bottom line is that the Greens quotes in this article make for a much more NPOV story so, I don't regret bringing up the opium issue as that may have helped motivate the discovery of the Greens comments (by Borofkin)...maybe..who knows. Neutralizer 17:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My attention was drawn to this article because of the dispute over the opium content, and I added the Greens quote because the article was clearly in need of a POV that opposed deployment of troops. The opium stuff, in my opinion, could not be included unless we could find someone external to Wikinews who had criticised the troop deployment for that reason. - Borofkin 23:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Borofkin. As I was publishing the initial story, my intention was always to come back shortly and add a pile of rebuttals. I was waiting for the Greens to release a statement. And I was gonna work this baby into a nasty indicment on the Howard/Bush war machine. :) However, when I returned to hack up a notch. BANG - it was packed full of opium. I love wikinews! --elliot_k 15:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


text:
Californian computer company lodges antitrust suit against Microsoft

February 21, 2006 Tangent Computer, a computer services and hardware company based in Burlingame, California has filed a lawsuit against Microsoft. The lawsuit filed on February 14, 2006 claims that Microsoft continues to breach federal antitrust laws.

Tangent alleges that Microsoft fosters tactics "to prevent and destroy competition" while raising prices of its software to "supra-competitive levels." Tangent is arguing that the tactics are a violation of section 2 Sherman Antitrust Act, a federal law prohibiting unfair business practices and monopolies.

The lawsuit details legal issues which have faced Microsoft since the 1980s, and requests that an amount of monetary damages to be determined by a jury at a trial.

Tangent is an original equipment manufacturer who has purchased and installed Microsoft operating systems since 1995. In addition to their hardware business, they also provide Internet content monitoring, spam filtering, anti-spyware and adware solutions, network vulnerability assessments, active directory tools and migration services.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
User:Prattu~enwikinews/The Power of Holding Hands

I was sitting on a beach one summer day, watching two children, a boy and a girl, playing in the sand.

They were hard at work building an elaborate sandcastle by the water's edge with gates and towers and moats and internal passages. Just when they had nearly finished their project, a big wave came along and knocked it down, reducing it to a heap of wet sand.

I expected the children to burst into tears, devastated by what had happened to all their hard work. But they surprised me. Instead, they ran up the shore away from the water, laughing and holding hands, and sat down to build another castle.

I realized that they had taught me an important lesson. All the things in our lives, all the complicated structures we spend so much time and energy creating, are built on sand.

Only our relationships to other people endure. Sooner or later, the wave will come along and knock down what we have worked so hard to build up. When that happens, only the person who has somebody's hand to hold will be able to laugh.


text:
Talk:RadioShack CEO resigns

Grammar Check
Hope someone better in grammar than me can check my grammar, thank you wiki community. icon256

 * Got it. 70.92.174.251 21:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Published
Grammar as is, hope its ok. No one seemed to pick up on the grammar so, it is publish just as it. icon256

severance package
The wording regarding the severance was misleading. According to the linked sources, and wikipedia, the CEO is going to receive a severance package from radio shack. I edited the article to reflect this. Ycaps123 19:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The schools actual name is (was) Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College.

The schools actual name is (was) Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College.

title: Talk:RadioShack CEO resigns


text:
User talk:Jrlafond

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title: User talk:Jrlafond


text:
User talk:JohnTReuter~enwikinews

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Renamed
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title: User talk:JohnTReuter~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Mnm619

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title: User talk:Mnm619


text:
User talk:Daniel C. Boyer~enwikinews

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The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Daniel C. Boyer. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Daniel C. Boyer~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

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Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Daniel C. Boyer~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Jiji1129

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title: User talk:Jiji1129


text:
User talk:Namaste rich

Welcome
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title: User talk:Namaste rich


text:
User talk:MU

Welcome
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title: User talk:MU


text:
User talk:Linzstef

Welcome
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title: User talk:Linzstef


text:
User talk:Orgullobot~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Orgullobot. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Orgullobot~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

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Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Orgullobot~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Prattu~enwikinews

Welcome
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Hi. I moved your personal essay to your user space. -- IlyaHaykinson 15:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Prattu. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Prattu~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Prattu~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Gary Kirk

Welcome
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Notnews?
Hi, I noticed that you attached the 'notnews' tag to this article. I was wondering if you'd care to explain why? Normally, attaching a tag like that calls for starting a thread in the talk page, or at the very least, a brief explanation in the edit summary so that other editors can understand your reasoning. Aloha, KeithH (talk) 05:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Big Brother
Would you mind adding a bit more info to the end of the article, explaining the situation to non-Brits? -- Zanimum 15:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As Zanimum pointed out, this is meaningless to people outside the UK, hence as an international news site posting this story as a lead is wholly inappropriate. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Big Brother
I see you created a page on the loose of the carphone warhouse sponsorship for Big Brother. Yesterday, I created a page on the racism scandal. Is there any chance we can merge them. The Mackem journalist 16:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Professor Sunderland, what do you mean by that?, I' am a student at the university. The Mackem journalist 18:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: What? Could you stop this. You are harassing me now. The Mackem journalist 19:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay thank you for the advice. But I'm not this user off wikipedia, you must have made a glitch in your thoughts. I have much better things to do than vandalise. The Mackem journalist 16:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

source image
Please provide url of where you got Image:Cbb logo.png from. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Original reporting
I see you're covering the Blair story, and the guess of one of the other administrators is you're watching this on TV. Can you detail that on the talk as well as look for sources to back up the stuff you're seeing? Cheers! --Brian McNeil / talk 10:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Email
I have set up your @wikinewsie.org email address, please contact me at brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.org to get the password, username, and access details for your accredited reporter email address. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting on the email coming in, then I'll dig out my chart of usernames/passwords. In the meantime have you listened to the interview I did with Tony Benn? See http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Image:Tony_Benn_Interview.ogg. Incidentally, I really should have the email by now. What address did you send it to? --Brian McNeil / talk 15:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Accreditation Expiration
Greetings, I wanted to let you know that our policy regarding accreditation has recently changed slightly. Specifically we've enacted an automatic expiration of accreditation after 2 years. You can very easily "re-up" your accreditation should you choose to, but at this point in time you're on the Inactive list. As such your accreditation will automatically be revoked on March 15th unless you request otherwise. Currently, posting to the following thread will keep your accreditation. At a later date, all Accredited reporters will be put in for that "re-up", at which time you'll be notified. Thank you, and should you have any questions, feel free to contact me on my talk page. -- Shakata Ga Nai ^_^ 20:33, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikinews Writing contest 2013 is here. :) Please sign up to participate?
We've created the Writing contest 2013, which will start on April 1 and end on June 1. It is modeled on the successful 2010 contest. It would be a really great time for you, as an inactive Wikinews accredited reporter, to renew your credentials by doing some original reporting or conducting interviews. People should be around to interview to prevent a backlog, and several reviewers have access to scoop to make it easier to review any original reporting you do. If you are interested in signing up, please do so on Writing contest 2013/entrants. There is at least one prize on offer for the winner along with the opportunity to earn some barn stars as a way of thanking you for your participation. :D --LauraHale (talk) 10:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gary Kirk


text:
User talk:Orgullowikibot~enwikinews

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Brian McNeil / talk 12:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Newsroom - The comunity portal
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Orgullowikibot. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Orgullowikibot~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Orgullowikibot~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Davidgriggs

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Brian McNeil / talk 12:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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title: User talk:Davidgriggs


text:
User talk:Darren glanville~enwikinews

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Brian McNeil / talk 12:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Newsroom - The comunity portal
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Darren glanville. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Darren glanville~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Darren glanville~enwikinews


text:
Microsoft changes OEM license, forcing new purchases after motherboard upgrade

February 21, 2006

Microsoft has recently made changes to the Windows license agreement, saying that, “An upgrade of the motherboard is considered to result in a new personal computer to which Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred from another computer."

This will force users who upgrade their motherboard, even via the OEM, to purchase a new license agreement. The only exception is a defect for which the OEM replaces the motherboard.

Microsoft claims it needs to have "one base component left standing that would still define that original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the heart and soul of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created.”

Microsoft has asked its OEM partners to begin enforcing the new policy when they upgrade a client's computer.


text:
Talk:Cheney gets ovation, shooting victim apologizes to Cheney

dear dick cheney i would like to offer my most sincere apologies for rudely getting in the way of your bullets. please let me pay for my hospital stay and/or coffin myself.


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Maryland, US school close-mouthed on police incident

On February 14th, students at Pot Spring Elementary School in Timonium, Maryland noticed police activity in and around their school. School officials did not immediately offer an explanation for the presence of police cars and officers at the school.

The following day, Principal Karen Harris sent a brief letter to parents. The letter acknowledges that an incident involving the school required assistance from the Baltimore County police. The letter assured parents that the situation was not dangerous, but did not describe the incident.

The Harris letter asked those with questions to contact the school by phone. Jane Martin, the assistant principal, declined to describe the event that had called for police assistance. She indicated school administrators became concerned that rumors of a bomb, gun, or other violence were spreading mainly among 4th and 5th grade students. This concern prompted the principal’s letter. Martin said that the school was not evacuated on February 14th.

At the time of this article the Baltimore County Police Department has not responded to inquiries.


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Thick fog blankets Houston area

February 21, 2006 A dense fog has enveloped the greater Houston area in Texas, United States, ahead of an incoming warm front. Visibility has been reduced to under a quarter of a mile, in some places as low as 100 feet. Motorists are advised to use caution during the morning commute. The fog advisory is scheduled to lift at 12 PM CST.

title: Thick fog blankets Houston area


text:
Paul Bernardo admits to more rapes

February 21, 2006

Paul Bernardo, Canada's most notorious serial murderer, has admitted more crimes. Bernardo has admitted to raping at least ten additional women during his time as the "Scarborough Rapist."

In the early 1990s, Bernardo murdered three young women in Southern Ontario with his wife Karla Homolka. After his trial, he admitted to being the "Scarborough Rapist." Bernardo had previously claimed to have raped 15 women between 1986 and 1991. Today, his lawyer announced that he has confessed to 10 additional rapes.

Paul Bernardo is serving a life sentence as a dangerous offender. In Canada, dangerous offender status allows the courts to impose an indefinite sentence. Bernardo will almost certainly never be released.

Bernardo's wife, Karla Homolka, was released last year in what has been widely called a "Deal with the Devil". Homolka provided testimony that helped convict Bernardo, but which minimized her own participation in the murders. Investigators later discovered that Homolka had played an active role.

title: Paul Bernardo admits to more rapes


text:
User talk:129.100.249.16

Welcome
Wikinews desperately needs more gutsy reporters; please give the project as much time as you can spare. Neutralizer 15:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:129.100.249.16


text:
Talk:Paul Bernardo admits to more rapes

It's my second article. Rip it apart. Baffledexpert 16:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * A second source would be nice, but it reads quite well at the moment. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've added a second source and sent it off to be published. Baffledexpert 20:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Paul Bernardo admits to more rapes


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User:Copey~enwikinews

Kia ora koutou!

My name is Neil Copeland. I live in Dunedin, New Zealand. I first created a Wikipedia account under the name Copey, a name I used for signing contributions before I created the account, but there was a glitch with the password, and I was obliged to change my Username to Copey 2 for Wikipedia. I remain Copey in other Wiki projects.

[Most of this what follows is probably less relevant here than in Wikipedia. I'll check other User pages and modify mine accordingly.]

My interests are:

Languages—Particular interests are comparative linguistics, especially Indo-European languages. I am seeking to become more knowledgable in the area of Polynesian languages. I have a reading knowledge at varying competence levels of Classical and Koinē Greek, Hebrew, Māori, Latin, Russian, Old English, Old Norse, Old Church Slavonic, Gothic, French, German, Biblical Aramaic, and smatterings of things like Italian and Spanish.

Christian faith—I am an evangelical/charismatic Baptist with a deep appreciation of Catholic worship. I believe that the Bible is authoritative in our understanding of God and in determining the way Christians live their lives, but I find the doctrine of inerrancy unhelpful—and sometimes meaningless, as it often implies accepting as history writings that the writers themselves plainly did not intend as such. In 2 Timothy 3.16-17 (All scripture is inspired by God...) I find no reference to the Bible as a geological or palaeontological textbook. I am interested in the writings of the Church Fathers and the light they throw on scripture.

Māoritanga—Over the last four years I have been studying Māori language|te Reo Māori at University. I have also been doing other Māori papers, cultural and linguistic, and I have been involved in an extra-curricular kapa haka (Māori performing arts) group, visiting marae and high schools in various parts of New Zealand, performing, and promoting the University of Otago among young Māori. I performed my first haka at the age of 51, which I think is pretty dam' good. I want to make contributions to the Wikipedia in this area.

Music—Folk music in particular. I am active in the Dunedin and South Island folk scene, participating in all five annual festivals on the Canterbury/Otago circuit. I am a fairly competent guitarist, and play a number of other instruments, including piano accordion, mandolin, 5-string banjo, blues harp, tin whistle etc, with varying degrees of skill. I enjoy Celtic music, contemporary folk, bluegrass, blues, the folkier sort of country music, trad English and virtually anything well-written and witty. I also enjoy quite a lot of jazz, with Dave Brubeck as a particular favourite.

Mathematics—very much an amateur here, but I did work out the factorial of ½ accurate to 15 decimal places before I learned it was half the square root of π. I also worked out for myself why e to the power of iπ = –1. I have a particular interest in factorials, the Fibonacci and Lucas series and complex numbers.

title: User:Copey~enwikinews


text:
Talk:Maryland, US school close-mouthed on police incident

Original reporting notes
Interviews
 * Student A 2/15/06; 2nd grader; had seen police cars and police officers; didn't hear rumours; hadn't heard info from teachers
 * Student B 2/15/06; grade K; had seen police cars and police officers; hadn't hear rumours; hadn't heard info from teachers
 * Jane Martin 2/17/06; asst principal; verified/reiterated letter; rumours of gun, bomb, vlnce;4-5 gr.;effort to squash rumors; no fthr info/description

Documents T.D. Reid
 * Letter dtd 2/15 from school principal (Harris) obtained copy from parents

Name
I changed it from Baltimore County school close-mouthed on police incident" to "Maryland, US school close-mouthed on police incident". I think the latter does not assume knowlage[sp] of the region, which is better for the global audience. Unfortunatly it is less specific, but that can be explained in the article. Xcjm 20:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


text:
Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq

February 21, 2006

A Federal grand jury in Cleveland handed down indictments Tuesday against three Ohio men on terrorism related charges, including their alleged involvement in planning attacks overseas to kill U.S. and coalition military personnel in Iraq and other countries.

The three men, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi, and Wassim Mazlous, all pleaded not guilty. The men were arrested over the weekend in Toledo, the town where they lived over the past year. They are expected to appear in a Federal District Court on Tuesday afternoon.

The indictment does not specify that any attacks were imminent. In a press conference in Washington, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales said the indictments were intended to stop potential attacks before they could be launched. "We cannot wait until an attack happens," he said. "We will continue to use our criminal laws as Congress intended." He declined to say how far the alleged conspiracy had progressed or how close the group was to attacking American interests abroad or at home.

The three men are accused of having learned how to make bombs and suicide vests, of carrying out Jihad training exercises that included firearms training and target range practice, and conspiring to provide material support, money, training, and communications equipment to themselves and co-conspirators in the Middle East. They are also accused of using a business front to funnel money to co-conspirators in the region.

The indictment said the men recruited others to wage holy war against the United States and its allies. Mr. Gonzales would not say how large a group they had assembled.

One of the men, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, a citizen of both the United States and Jordan, is alleged to have twice threatened to kill or harm the President. He is also charged with distributing information about how to make and use an explosive device, relating to a plot that prosecutors claim to have begun in November 2004.

John Pistole, the deputy director of the F.B.I., described the men as "hiding in plain sight", and said Toledo had been added to a growing list of small towns where groups with roots in the Middle East are alleged to plot actions against the United States.

Mr. Gonzales declined to comment on the controversial use of phone wiretaps before obtaining a court warrant, and how that might have played a role in the case.

Mr. Gonzales noted that the three men could face as much as life in prison, if convicted of the charges.


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Senator Hatch lashes out at critics of domestic surveillance program

February 21, 2006

At a private luncheon in his home state of Utah, Republican U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch delivered some strong words for critics of President Bush's domestic surveillance program and war on terrorism.

Speaking to a few dozen political and business leaders, Hatch defended the President's surveillance actions: "I have to tell you, this president has guts and he deserves your support." He reserved specific criticism for his fellow Congress leaders, saying that while they are "moaning and groaning in Congress because [the President] didn't abide by what's called the FISA Act, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act," the act was no longer applicable to current conflicts.

On the war in Iraq, Hatch was even more disdainful of the critics. He said that the United States stopped a mass murderer in Saddam Hussein and that nobody denies that Saddam Hussein was supporting al-Qaeda, adding "Well, I shouldn't say nobody. Nobody with brains."

Notably, the bi-partisan 9/11 Commision charged with investigating issues related to the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks did not find an operational link between al-Qaeda's 9-11 attack and ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Senator Hatch is expected to run for reelection for his 6th term in November 2006. His challengers include State House Majority Whip Steve Urquhart (R) and Pete Ashdown (D).


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Narathiwat raid recovers stolen weapons

February 21, 2006

A raid on a village in Thailand's Narathiwat Province has netted a variety of munitions believed to be being held for insurgency activity. According to security forces, this includes weapons stolen from the Cho Airong army base in January 2004 — a raid widely seen as the start of current insurgency in the country.

The cache of weapons was located in Tanyong Limoh village buried behind a house. According to the security forces, the area is known for harbouring Islamic insurgents. The munitions recovered in the raid include AK47 assault rifles, dynamite, handguns, and fertilizer which can be used in the manufacture of home-made explosives.

In one of the other troubled southern provinces, Yala, a border police officer was shot near his home. Other local policemen quickly arrived on the scene and opened fire on the militants who had killed Sergeant Major Prapon Suwankota; one insurgent was killed.

title: Narathiwat raid recovers stolen weapons


text:
Talk:Thick fog blankets Houston area

dumb date
Thanks for the catch. I just used the template, I should have checked it.

Jordanmills 18:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

dumb time
12 pm is midnight, right? Karen 21:16, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * A very wierd weather event for Houston, I think. -68.232.153.54 00:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * No, 12 PM is noon. 12 AM is midnight.  It's generally better to just use noon or midnight, but I copied what was on the alert without thinking about that. Jordanmills 04:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Is this fog unusual?
...needed to clarify in what sense this is interesting to anyone outside of Houston,
 * Gee, Houston sometimes gets big fogs, who knew!
 * Gee, Houston never gets fog like this, more wacky weather?
 * Why does it need to be interesting to you? Jordanmills 20:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

It should address Wikinews' audience, which is global. It doesn't need to be interesting to me personally, but I should be able to understand why it is news, so I can then decide how interesting it is for me. In that regard, knowing how usual/unusual an event is provides an essential bit of context to any news item. This is not hard to do. StrangerInParadise 04:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Not news
Weather phenomena like fog occure daily,this isn't qualifying for a story. to Qualify it needs,
 * 1) Out of place(i.e. fog never occured there)
 * 2) Life threatening (i.e. can't drive or walk in such a fog)
 * 3) Unusual in its kind(i.e fog colored blue)
 * 4) Unusual duration or characteritics(see 3.) (fog lasting for days)

 * Oh, it could be the return of something normal which marks the passage of the seasons, etc. There are driving advisories in the story. Nice picture. StrangerInParadise 20:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Thick fog blankets Houston area


text:
Talk:Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq

npov
We can not rely on information solely from one party which has a vested interest in getting out a one-sided story. MrM., in a different disputestated that "This article heavily relies on items from ________, which could imply this article is in endorsement of their activities" and I agree with that concept; i.e. a story is biased when it relies too heavily (in this case entirely) on information from one side (in this case the prosecution). If we can not get quotes from the accused or their lawyers, then at the very least we need to mention the times the U.S. government accusations have been wrong. Neutralizer 19:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * And I have no problem with that. But it is news and it is filed in US District Court and there was a live press conference on it today.  It is news and we are reporting on what was alleged.  -Drew 20:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * There was some implication in the tagged version of this article that the accused were guilty. I believe this has been dealt with and reporting on legal action within the United States should not be viewed with the same sort of scepticism as news from a strictly controlled dictatorship. I have removed the tag, but put the article back to develop.  Please be constructive and avoid tagging if possible.--Brian McNeil / talk 20:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutralizer...once again, your objections you stated are not actionable. You need to state your reasons clearly. This is not an actionable objection. Do not delay articles because of your POV of the US government or any government. Jason Safoutin 21:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * In the subject of terrorism, war in Iraq and similar it is obvious that U.S goverment and some to them friendly newschannels should be viewed with scepticism. Not as North Corea but as a active part of a the mediawar. It is somtimes unappreciated to be a wikinewsie and journalists. International 21:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Herein lies the problem; A; the accusations could be wrong. B; the accusations,especially coming at a time when the US Congress is investigating the NSA spying on Americans issue, could be just another one of the administrations' ruses to support their activities; these men could just be CIA ops and the charges will be dropped in 3 months.C; In the USA we are innocent until proven guilty so there is no way the article should run without a response from the defense team and D; If some arm of the Iranian government was indicting 3 unknown men for a "terrorist plot" would that make it here as a news item? This story is very,very helpful right now to the US Government and if it is news at all, it should at least include responses from the defense team and/or mention past bullshit accusations of "terrorism" by the various arms of the US government, at least that's my opinion. Please address these issues before removing the flag.Neutralizer 22:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's very disturbing to see this type of wording on Wikinews "said to have". We can not be a party to the "conviction by accusation" methodology which this story,as currently written, portrays, in my view...and even leaves the impression by the same administration spokesman who condoned torture (Gonzales) that maybe the illegal wiretaps helped capture these "terrorists". This article is not NPOV ! PERIOD! Neutralizer 22:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutralizer: the phrasing is awkward, but you can clearly tell the intent is to say "alleged" or "are reported to have" or similar. Poor english usage does not give NPOV bias; in fact it shows the authors are working to ascribe opinions and statements which are not necessarily factual. I am researching the factual statements in this article and am not seeing any specific bias thus far. -  Amgine | talk en.WN 22:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we use a suitable "wikipediabox" about US-psyops or references to spinn in the beginning of the article?International 22:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Amgine, I am really suspicious about the timing of these domestic terrorism allegations/charges (including the Pennsylvania story) coming out during the NSA congressional hearings into domestic surveilance. I believe these 2 stories are the first involving domestic terrorism charges in many months and for both to be put out on the wire at this time seems very suspicious to me. I think we, as part of the media, are just being used to present scary accusations which justify domestic wiretapping. If these no-name defendents are found innocent in 3 years, nobody will care...the impact of the accusations is working right now. In addition, don't you think we need to hear something from the defense lawyers? Neutralizer 23:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I like International's suggestion. Perhaps an infobox showing all the accusations later found to be false or exagerated? Neutralizer 23:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipediapar boxes are source material, not article content, and should be in the sources section. If it is relevant to the article's fact checking (which it was not when I fact checked earlier) it should be included. Otherwise it is a POV insertion.

 * I can only speculate, Neutralizer, but I would see a different motivation for these indictments; there are several cases regarding people held in violation of the US Constitution which are working their way into the courtrooms. But speculation does not belong in a Wikinews article. -  Amgine | talk en.WN 00:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Title typo: "againt" should be "against"
Grammar, folks!! I'm sorry, however, that I do not know how to edit a pre-existing story title, except maybe to forward links from this page to a copy of the page with the correct title. That won't fix a typo on the FRONT PAGE of wikinews, though. Please fix this!

 * fixed; thanks for the heads up. Neutralizer 02:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Relevant discussion points
From;
 * "NPOV says it all; alerting us all that when articles are written from an anglo/american centric point of view we are breaching NPOV. I agree with what Amgine just said "To write here you have to accept the guidelines, and goals, the community has set for itself" as well as what Elliot has said "Wikinews is not opinion and commentary on the news"; I just think that many of our articles,without the contributors even realizing it, are unbalanced in favour of the Anglo American centric point of view and those articles are then a soapbox for Anglo American political and government officials. Karen said at one point that this article's quotes had come to a point where they were evenly balanced; I think she is very correct in identifying that as something we should aim for; equalization of quotes. I think that NPOV is saying that is the objective to go for; when there is more than one position in the world on an issue, we should try to present both sides. Going back to Edward Murrow; when he presented his blistering reports about Sen. McCarthy, he gave McCarthy the opprtunity for rebuttal; but with our article Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq I was not allowed a factual rebuttal on the article page; and that article ended up being completely a one-sided opinion piece..that opinion being the opinion of the prosecuting arm of the US Gov. and only their statements "quotes" are in the article. We all want NPOV in accordance with our guidelines; but those guidelines insist that The policy says that "an article should fairly represent all, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct." Right now this article (Australian troops) is really just fine in terms of NPOV; but this one Three Ohio men indicted for terrorist plot against U.S. military in Iraq certainly isn't. At the very least we should have inserted references to the times the US Gov's allegations have been 100% wrong and have included fabricated evidence;e.g.Brandon Mayfield; so I feel that I am the most aggressive supporter of ourNPOV guidelines, especially in confronting what our NPOV policy identifies as the "ongoing problem" of;anglo/american centric point of view. In my opinion, if you want to identify people who are writing opinion pieces, then I suggest you look at the many opinion pieces that are being published here which express only the opinion of anglo/american government officials....those are the articles which often get through here completely empty of any NPOV.."


text:
User talk:85.226.54.126

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! —M ESSED R OCKER (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Newsroom - The comunity portal
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:85.226.54.126