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User talk:Corevette

Welcome
Corevette, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! → CGorman (Talk) 11:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Corevette


text:
User talk:Jyrse

Welcome
Jyrse, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! → CGorman (Talk) 11:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Policy proposal Re; Time limit for Administrators
hi,; hope you can support this I just put this on the watercooler policy section

This is an urgent issue that must be addressed now,imo, because an integral condition for exercising administrative authority here on wikinews is stipulated to be "You are trusted by the community"[1].

I have designed a very simple policy proposal. Our past attempts at dealing with this sensitive issue(e.g.ArbCom proposals) have been unsuccessful,imo, because of their complicatedness. I would simply ask, if possible, that this proposal be given an "up or down" vote (with associated comments of course). Any attempt to complicate OR DELAY IT (especially by existing administrators) could be seen as suspicious behavior, I think. Administrators who have the community's trust have nothing to fear with this proposal.

Proposal;

1. As of Feb.1,2006, adminships will be for a 1 year term. 2. All existing non-Bureaucrat adminships will terminate Feb. 1st. 2006.

3.Nominations for renewal of existing adminships will begin on January 24th.

SUPPORT;

OPPOSE;

COMMENTS;

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Jyrse


text:
Cold cases in West Australia examined for Murdoch link

December 17, 2005 West Australian Police have begun a review of cold cases in their state following Bradley John Murdoch's conviction for the murder of British backpacker Peter Falconio.

Police believe that Murdoch from Broome, in northern Western Australia, could be responsible for the Claremont serial killings in Perth during 1996 and 1997. Police have also indicated that they will be exploring the possibility that Murdoch had been responsible for the disappearance of Hayley Dodd, 17 from Badgingarra and the disappearance of a woman from Broome in 1996.

Police will examine the details of the Falconio trial to construct a timeline of Murdoch's whereabouts. Police Sargeant Graham Clifford said "Murdoch's methodology and criminal profile were being scrutinised".


text:
User talk:Trödel/1

Vote for Deletion
Deletion of this page was debated, but the consensus was to keep the page, mostly since it underwent a significant transformation during the voting process. — PhilHibbs | talk 12:44, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Concerns about this organization
This conversation moved from Talk:Donations_for_victims_of_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake. BanyanTree 23:58, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

QuakeAID (BaouTrust)'s Authenticity?? Please explain.
I've visited their webpage, it's vaguely descriptive of WHAT and HOW they *actually* do to help quake victims.

Their "donation" scheme is doubtful too, since it's a monthly recurring subscription, for "joining" the membership of WHAT?

The service that is provided with the membership is not stated clearly, IMO.

I strongly recommend precautions for readers wanting to donate. And I strongly encourage User:baoutrust, the author of most of the entires, to explain their company's position, mechanism, and authenticity as a "non-private-gain" (paraphased) organization designated to help quake victims. --Godric 17:55, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

I have done a little investigation.. The external link for QuakeAID points to http://quakeaid.baou.com. That domain is registered to Baou Inc, with a phone at (212)613-3156. The site is hosted by 3105.com, with the same phone number, which characterizes itself: "Baou Inc.  d/b/a/ 3105: Cheap WebHosting!  admin@3105.com". Attempts to access http://www.3105.com were redirected to http://3105.baou.com, which proclaims "3105 Cheap WebHosting!". The wikipedia page QuakeAID was authored by User:baoutrust, who also entered the link for QuakeAID on this article's main page. User:baoutrust has no page of his/her own.

I don't have the authority to ban this user and eliminate his/her 'contributions', but I submit the matter for consideration by those who have such authority. Perhaps Elliot Spitzer, the New York State Attourney General might also be interested? Too Old 03:23, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

QuakeAID
I welcome you to forward your comments, questions, concerns to any authority you may feel appropriate.

QuakeAID was founded in 1998 by MPC Trust, EIN 65-6430787, which later changed its name to Baou Trust. Baou, Inc., formerly MPC Trading USA, Inc., which changed its name at the same time, is a New York corporation in good standing. QuakeAID was originally created in Athens Greece following the earthquake there and after the founder (Katerina Theohari) discovered how little the government was willing to do for the people of Greece.

I am trying to determine what you feel is "dubious" about the link for a membership. Our members have access to our research and resource information. They also receive a quarterly newsletter, but then, that is clearly stated on at least 3 pages of our website.

As for the fact that our parent company also operates a domain name registration service, well, doesn't everyone? That was one of the things that our founder was doing when her house was wrecked by the earthquake in Athens. She is also a noted painter/artist (in Greece).

Thank you for your concern, but I object to your statements when clearly you have no idea what our organization does and have not bothered to contact us.

 * You are quite right that I don't know what your organization does, and nothing on your site tells me. I did determine that it is a registered corporation in New York State, and that QuakeAID is a registered trademark.  I searched for charitable organizations registered in New York State, and found no such records on the site of the New York Secretary of State for any names beginning "Baou", "QuakeAID" or "Quake Aid".  I made the same search on the site for the Internal Revenue Service, with the same results.  It is possible that the name of your organization slipped through the cracks.  Is your organization registered as a charitable organization in any jurisdiction?  Is it registered as a 501(c)(3) organization (or a similar classification) with the Internal Revenue Service? Too Old 18:35, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

Jennifer Monroe QuakeAID/Baou Trust

 * Jennifer, thank you for your swift reply.
 * I did attempt to contact you, indirectly by posting a concern here. Though I agree that I should have contacted you via your Wikipedia User:Talk page instead. I'd prefer phone contact too, but due to my own limited resource as a volunteer, I choose to resort to Wikipedia's communication mechanism (Talk Pages).

 * As for the "dubious" part about your membership program: (Copy & paste from your website)

 * QuakeAID is a global earthquake resource center for information, education and assistance. QuakeAID's specific purposes include:

* Research (cause, prevention, early detection, construction issues) * Humanitarian (financial relief, housing, food and water, clothing, other support) * Education (global awareness, preventative measures, safety issues) * Resource (conduit for information)

 * Research - Any sample research material for demo?
 * Humanitarian - Where have you guys been to provide humanitarian service before? Any history or case study?
 * Education - What kinda education? Any demo? Any testimony?
 * Resource - very vague, conduit? very buzzword.

 * QuakeAID ® receives financial support from Baou Trust and is not organized for the personal gain of anyone working for or associated with the charity, but for philanthropic purposes as follows:

* To provide funding for research into the cause(s) and possible early warning (detection) of earthquakes; and * To provide humanitarian and financial relief to earthquake victims and their families throughout the world; and * To educate regarding preventative measures in terms of location and construction; and * To serve as a recognized source of reliable information for a global community

 * Provide funding, to Whom? Any trust witness? Early warning - How? Where? Who detect? Detect for Whom?
 * Financial relief - to Where? to Whom? What do you mean "throughout the world" exactly?
 * Education - Educating to Whom? at where? Any demo material?
 * Info source - Any demo? Global community? like Whom?
 * (and basically this section is the duplication of the previous section)

 * In order to achieve its objectives, QuakeAID endeavors to:

* Visit effected areas to determine aid requirements * Provide financial and other assistance as required * Encourage paid membership in QuakeAID * Solicit donations to support the organization's objectives * Liaise with government and educational centers which compile earthquake statistics * Promote networking with other organisations and businesses at a local and international level * Distribute educational materials to schools, universities, colleges

 * Visit - Where? How to determine aid? What's the evalution procedure? Who is the auditor?
 * Financial - Repeated again.
 * Encourage paid membership - for what? Up to this point, you still haven't explain what you actually do!
 * Solicit donation and support - Yes, you are doing it right here right now.
 * Compile stats - How? What's the different from the raw Gov material?
 * Promote networking - How? What org, what biz? How international the level is?
 * Distribut Edu material - To which school? what city? what nation?

 * THIS is what I considered "dubious", if you know what I mean. These are all marketing buzzword crap.
 * I don't even feel reserved to say it more bluntly; if based on the info I quoted from your website, I could't even remotely convince myself to trust you with my donation, even given that you explicitly claimed that you are legit here.

 * Regards,
 * --Godric 18:22, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Godric,

I really don't have time to respond to your advice pertaining to methods to better (in your view) our organization's website. We are constantly making changes to the website. If you want to be considered for re-writing it, contact our office. But (see below), it is not our main focus.

I found just two of your points that merit a response.

In the first instance, QuakeAID clearly states that it was originally organized in Greece, and as such, it was not required to obtain a U.S. exemption from tax. The sole purpose of the 501(c)(3) exemption is to eliminate the requirement of tax. It does not determine whether or not an organization is legitimate. If that is what you think, then I would strongly suggest caution in your charity-giving, because there are a great many organizations who possess such an exemption and who are collecting millions of dollars per annum, but then only pass on 30-40% (sometimes less) of those monies towards the victims and or *causes* they profess to be concerned with. In fact, I read yesterday that someone using this service considers 60% a reasonable figure. How disgraceful! QuakeAID is closer to 93% on average.

In the case of QuakeAID, we recently established our desire to enter the U.S. and have applied for such an exemption. The process is a long one. When that exemption has been granted, we will make that information available on our website. One additional point though, 501(c)(3) and exemption of tax is really not what's about is it? If one is looking for a tax exemption, I would suggest they consider other methods of tax avoidance. If someone is attempting to help victims of earthquakes or wishes to support the research in which QuakeAID involves itself, then they will donate irrespective of the tax implications.

Our desire in publishing a website is not to try to convince anyone, or even you, into donating. The purpose of the website (for QuakeAID) is to record basic information about the organization. Those people interested in supporting our Objects do so and will do so regardless of our website. Our work is in the field not on the website.

Finally, we do not list our telephone number on our website because the cost of employing people to field telephone calls reduces the good work that we can do. With limited resources and a desire to use those funds for the advancement of our Objects, we have decided to promote our fax and email as methods of communications. Most of our work is not done through or on the Internet (imagine that?). In fact, we find the Internet to be a very limited resource in terms of being effective. Mostly, in our experience, it generates time-wasting exercises for those with very little else to do.

In the case of QuakeAID, if someone wishes to contact our founder, they can email or fax and if the contact is legitimate then access through our switchboard is given (by entering a code).

I hope that answers your questions.

 * Regards,
 * --Baou Trust

Some history for you
Below you have details from the USPTO (Trademark) section showing the change of name from MPC Trust to Baou Trust. The link for this is actually found on the footer of our website. Click the hyper-links for either of the trademarks; in the UK and or the USA -- For your information UK is used because of the fact that our founder has a home there and registration in any of the European countries protects in all of Europe; and the process in Greece is not fully implemented (the word "third-world" springs to mind).

In any event, the US application was filed on April 9, 2002.

http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78120371

The UK application was filed on July 22, 2002.

http://webdb4.patent.gov.uk/tm/number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=2305914

This is all public information.

Trademark Assignment Abstract of Title

Total Assignments: 2 Serial #: 78120371 Filing Dt: 04/09/2002 Reg #: 2741859 Reg. Dt: 07/29/2003 Registrant: QuakeAID Mark: QUAKEAID Assignment: 1 Reel/Frame: 2819/0893	Received: 03/30/2004	Recorded: 03/30/2004		Pages: 2 Conveyance: ASSIGNS THE ENTIRE INTEREST Assignor: QUAKEAID Exec Dt: 06/30/2003 Entity Type: CORPORATION Citizenship: UNITED KINGDOM Assignee: MPC TRUST 1133 BROADWAY, SUITE 706 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10010-8065 Entity Type: FAMILY TRUST Citizenship: UNITED STATES

Correspondent: KATERINA THEOHARI-SMITH 1133 BROADWAY, SUITE 706 NEW YORK, NY 10010-8065 Assignment: 2 Reel/Frame: 2928/0759	Received: 09/03/2004	Recorded: 09/03/2004		Pages: 3 Conveyance: CHANGE OF NAME Assignor: MPC TRUST Exec Dt: 09/02/2004 Entity Type: FAMILY TRUST Citizenship: NEW YORK Assignee: BAOU TRUST 244 FIFTH AVENUE, 2ND FLOOR, SUITE 2003 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10001-7604 Entity Type: FAMILY TRUST Citizenship: NEW YORK Correspondent: BAOU, INC. 244 FIFTH AVENUE, 2ND FLOOR, SUITE 2003 NEW YORK, NY 10001-7604

Search Results as of: 01/01/2005 01:36 AM If you have any comments or questions concerning the data displayed, contact OPR / Assignments at 703-308-9723

 * Trademark shows that you are a biz, not a charity. I can go sign up my own trademark tomorrow too. --Godric 18:54, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Unprofessional attacks
The link to QuakeAID on the relevant page was removed without the permission of the person who contributed it. I have restored it. This attack against QuakeAID is unwarranted and unprofessional (read: childish). It merely reduces the value of this medium.

 * Thanks for your rebuttal. I did that (the removal). I don't think a poorly presented "charity" service webpage deserves to be listed on the Donation Page. This is why I removed your entry. Me being childish or not, I don't care; the removal being warranted or not, I don't care either; I only care about your Professionalism since you claimed that you are a charitable service entity, because it affects our readers' decision on donation.

 * Surely the readers themselves are ultimately responsible for choosing what they think is worthwhile, but I can do something too, which I did, is to inquire, investigate, and act upon Unprofessionalism and Confusion, that is your (QuakeAID's) webpage, the unprofessional communication medium you presented to our readers here.

 * You, QuakeAID, can feel free to introduce a more professional presentation of your service, otherwise, I will remove your entry again and again, because in here, policies are carried out by GFDL. Again, let me restate, I don't think an Unprofessionally Presented charity service webpage deserves to be listed here for our readers.

 * You can either remove the unprofessional webpage and only leave the phone number there intact, or I will remove your entry again. I hope I've made myself clear. --Godric 08:42, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Supplemental:

Our desire in publishing a website is not to try to convince anyone, or even you, into donating. The purpose of the website (for QuakeAID) is to record basic information about the organization. Those people interested in supporting our Objects do so and will do so regardless of our website. Our work is in the field not on the website.

 * If so, then don't list your "insignificant" webpage here, especially the (monthly recurring) donation page too.

---GODric,

The cost of membership/support is annual--proving that even GODric can err.

QuakeAID does not have a telephone number

 * http://quakeaid.baou.com/donate.htm How to Donate to QuakeAID

BAOU 09:44, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Finally, we do not list our telephone number on our website because the cost of employing people to field telephone calls reduces the good work that we can do. With limited resources and a desire to use those funds for the advancement of our Objects, we have decided to promote our fax and email as methods of communications. Most of our work is not done through or on the Internet (imagine that?). In fact, we find the Internet to be a very limited resource in terms of being effective. Mostly, in our experience, it generates time-wasting exercises for those with very little else to do.

 * If so, then also don't list your "time-wasting" webpage and phoneline here.

 * --Godric 08:56, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * The reason they do not list their phone number is because Baou, Inc., the parent company (for now) of all of these organizations, including their newswire service called Official Wire and QuakeAID, are all managed by a company called OFFSHORESIMPLE.COM which provides you with a "virtual office" and their "own 5th Ave address, a 212 or 718 Phone number with voicemail and Fax number."  The actual owners of this company, Greg Lloyd Smith and his wife Katherine live in Mykonos, Greece and remotely manage these "businesses".  Soon they'll disappear and re-establish themselves under a new name.  They've already renamed their parent company from KESTREL, to MPC Trading to Baou, Inc., seemingly because of their constant encounters with the law.  Let me repeat myself: Constant problems with the law.  When they're not having their ass handed to them in the court room, they're busy creating frivolous lawsuits or motions which ultimately get shut down by an arbitration panel or judge.  Every single time.  —RaD Man (talk) 04:47, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, and thank you very much Baou, Inc. for the lovely writeup on your personal PR-device, Official Wire. I think its just splendid.  —RaD Man (talk) 04:47, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It looks like QuakeAID sprung for the upgrade offered to "Live answering to Voice Mail" by OFFSHORESIMPLE.COM ($100/month for up to 100 messages, $1 for each additional message thereafter).
 * QuakeAID Foundation, Inc.
 * Baou Trust, 244 Fifth Avenue
 * 2nd Floor, Suite 2003
 * New York, NY 10001-7604
 * Tel: (800) 377-6402
 * Fax: (212) 330-8179

—RaD Man (talk) 03:31, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * They surely are adapting to the situations. 800 line, newsletter subscription box, VolunteerMatch recruitment (150 people needed!). They are trying very hard... --Godric 10:09, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Godric,

The beauty of what you have written is that your words speak for themselves. Your opinion, whilst very important (no doubt to you), is not shared by very many people. I am sure that many people are wondering what your personal attack against a single organization have to do with the spirit of this medium. I have inspected several of the websites (some do not have one!! shock horror!!) of some of the organizations you seemed to have left out of your attack, and frankly, you have alot of prejudice and unprofessional activity to catch up on. Get on your bike. You should be ashamed of yourself, but of course, you (no doubt) feel you are justified in expressing such ridiculous comments.

BAOU 09:05, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * You are dithering while Rome burns, as I've just learned about this usage today.
 * You still haven't addressed the issues I stated in my last post.
 * What other organizations did with their webpage does not justify you to have an unprofessional and confusing one. Whom I go investigate first or last is not a business of yours.

 * You are personally attacking me, not the other way around. I only said that your webpage is unprofessional and confusing and is inappropiate to be listed here (proved in my previous posts above).

--Godric 09:10, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

GODric,

The point is, that the comments you make are merely your opinion, which very few people would agree with (in my opinion). Our website is organized, professional and provides a useful service to our supporters. You do not agree.

The fact remains that QuakeAID is no more or less legitimate that any other organization, except that, we are the only organization in the world that is exclusively focused on the subject of earthquakes, relief to victims of earthquakes, and research on the subject.

The reality is that you made your comments, which are unfounded, and again, merely your opinion. I have replied in a professional manner, still trying to determine who made you the voice of morality. There is really very littled *proved* in your message apart from the prejudice you possess.

BAOU 09:20, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, quite right, opinions from each side so far has been exposed.
 * I merely exposed what I am able to, readers will decide what's in store for themselves.
 * Thank you.
 * --Godric 09:41, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

GODric,

The problem with your comments is that they are not accurate, and you state them as fact. You based them on prejudice and you failed to verify your purported facts before you published them.

Indeed, using your yardstick, users could arbitrarily edit content from this medium, based on their perception without rebuke. If you are an administrator, then the authority that gave you that permission should reel you in because from my perspective, you have gain too much power given your aparent prejudice. People in positions of power (even this level) should not possess the level of prejudice you demonstrate.

By the way, collecting thongs is perhaps exciting for some, but maybe not the best method of serving the victims associated with this most recent disaster. I note that you have not (yet) removed that link. Get on your bike.

BAOU 09:52, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sale of bikini thongs as a form of donation to QuakeAID

This message is really directed at GODric, who seems to have appointed himself arbitor of all things correct and right in respect of organizations collecting donations in response to the Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunamis.

I noted the link (currently 131); slim-somthing or other.

I mentioned it previously, but GODric seems to have ignored the comment. Perhaps he has allowed this link to remain because the organization's (dare I say charity), website is so professionally done. Indeed, I nearly thought to remove my own thong and send it in after reading their plea for support, but thought better of it.

I suspect GODric's interest (read: prejudice) is more focused. Or maybe he is behind this drive to collect thongs!

BAOU 10:29, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It would seem that GODric got it out of his system. Every so often everyone needs an enema. --BAOU 12:42, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please see No personal attacks, and maybe Assume_good_faith. Thank you. --kooo 18:12, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

I have read the OfficialWire article. I have reviewed the Wikipedia donations page in entirety. I have read each word of this thread. I have taken time to extensively examine the QuakeAID web site. And, I have formed an opinion.

First, QuakeAID.org's web site does not appear as "unprofessional" as some might wish others to believe. Second, the manner in which QuakeAID has been rebuffed seems very unprofessional, even in the inherently unprofessional context of Wikipedia. Third, a thorough reading and following of linkages within the QuakeAID web site generate my own serious doubts regarding their absolute legitimacy. Please note that is not to say with certainly that the organization is not legitimate and trustworthy. However, the recurring membership by which one donates seems dubious at best, and at worst is a practice often used at less wholesome web sites (e.g., pornographic) which have often been criticized for taking advantage of consumers and the recurring nature of fees or dues. That in itself is sufficient for me to remove them from my list of potential donation recipients.

In addition, items in the QuakeAID shop offered in exchange for contributions seem highly inconsistent with the wholesome image most charitable organizations wish to portray. How are thongs and spaghetti tank tops at all consistent with QuakeAID's stated goals and intentions? Could not Baou find products more in line with the prevention and repair of earthquake destruction, and the alleviation of human suffering? It appears the selection of offered items was not well-considered by Baou management, and contributes to an organizational image which may well leave many feeling uncomfortable regarding QuakeAID's charity status. That is, there is a certain cognitive dissonance between the supposed nature of the organization and its selection of products offered in exchange for donations.

There also appears too little separation between QuakeAID's not-for-profit operations and linkages to other Baou operations which seem very much profit-oriented. In other words, there is little indication of an arm's length distance between Baou's profit and not-for-profit operations. At what point am I certain that money provided via the web site crosses the line of charity vs. profit when with only a single click I am conveyed from QuakeAID thongs to Nice Italian Sausages? Also, and consistent with my confusion, is the listing of each under the commercial domain of CafePress.com. Again, Baou management seems not to have understood that a crystal clear delineation between their services/products might be essential for greater acceptance of QuakeAID as only a well-intentioned charity organization. And last, although well-written, QuakeAID's stated goals and mission are only vaguely presented, with no verifiable facts offered in support. There appears much sizzle and little steak.

In sum, QuakeAID may well be legitimate, but they have exercised questionable judgement and performed very poorly in making certain any concerned and potential donor has few doubts. The web site's apparent commingling of for-profit and not-for-profit enterprises should cause any reasonably cautious person to doubt charity donations will be channeled appropriately. Until these issues are resolved more clearly, I agree with not listing QuakeAID among Wikipedia charity organizations.
 * Comments above left at 19:17, 3 Jan 2005 by User:ZenWarrior. Thank you Zen for your time and research.

 * ZenWarrior, first I appreciate your research for the QuakeAID matter, it adds value to Wikipedia.

 * I think I (Godric) am among the "unprofessional" bunch, or even the sole one; however, since you have such insight in professional rebuffing (no pun intended), I'd like to learn about your comment on 2 issues you stated:

 * How is QuakeAID's website not unprofessional, given their dubious mission statement, vague offering, and non-existent factual support while proclaiming itself as a charity?
 * How is my (Godric's) rebuttal "(very) unprofessional" in effectively rebuffing my opponent? (putting justice aside while only concentrating debate strategy)

 * And of course, I don't expect you'll have extra time to spare for my personal learning, but I asked it anyway to give it a try. I re-analyzed my transcript again, and I realized a few things of concern in debate effectiveness indeed. I just want to know some 3rd person's view from you since you've studied the transcript. Thank in advance if you really are interested in responding.

 * However, a minor note is that the transcript is disorganized a bit from its original conversation sequence, though the "unprofessionalism" is still very obvious from my own review. I guess it's negligible to the analysis, but nonetheless is a fact to mention.

 * Again, hope to hear and learn from you. Regards, --Godric 08:30, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Boldface in the "legitimacy" section?
Since I personally suspect that QuakeAID is a scam and am certain that there is no conceivable reason to donate to it in preference to than to one of the fifty-odd agencies listed by USAID and USA Freedom Corps I really, really hate to bring this up, but...

....the use of boldface in the "legitimacy concerns" section seems to me to be an attempt to call the reader's attention to that section. To outshout the preceding section.

Now, it may well be NPOV to say that the legitimacy concerns should carry more weight than the organizations self-declared virtues, but it bothers me to see this expressed typographically.

I would hate to see typography wars in which editors of one section use bold, the other faction fights back with exclamation points, the first faction responds with 18-point type in blinking red, the second uses the nuclear option—animated GIFs Dpbsmith (talk) 13:30, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, let's get rid of boldface where it's not required by WP style. --MarkSweep 15:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Strange bed partners
The following information was extracted via a cursory search on Google, thought it was interesting:

Companies in common with QuakeAID and Baou Trust aka Baou, Inc. aka MPC Trust aka MPC Trading USA:

"Crooked Knight: How it all went wrong for IEQ" by David Alexander Expose of corporate fraud. Publisher: MPC Trading USA, Inc. 1133 Broadway, Suite 706 New York, NY 10010-8065 Phone: 212/613-3156, Fax: 877/765-6948, Email: admin@crookedknight.com
 * This one I find the most ironic of them all (this is the only book sold by Baou, Inc.)

Baou, Inc. 244 Fifth Avenue 2nd Floor, Suite 2003 New York, NY 10001-7604 Tel: (212) 613-3156 Fax: (877) 765-6948
 * HRMMMMM wonder why a corporation uses NYMail.com to be their maildrop? ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 04:00, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * From http://www.nymail.com/postalMail.html :
 * PostalMail - Starting at $15.00 Per Month
 * Billing period is 2 months.
 * You get your mail as:
 * Your Name and/or Business Name
 * 244 Fifth Avenue, #_____
 * New York, New York 10001-7604

QuakeAid - Baou Trust Tel: (212) 613 3156 Fax: (877) 765 6948

QuakeAID - Baou Trust Jennifer Monroe (Administration Director) Baou Trust 244 Fifth Avenue, 2nd Floor, Suite 2003 New York, NY 10001 Tel: (212) 613 3156 Fax: (877) 765-6948

 * Again see my previous comment, this is a NYMail.com rented mailbox/voicemail acct. ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 05:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Santa Marina Gallery Tel: (212) 613-3156 Fax: (877) 765-6948

Official Wire: The Official News Source Tel: (212) 613-3156 Fax: (877) 765-6948

Albany Country Homes Greg Loyd Smith 125 Durham St. Sudbury, Ontario P3E 3M9 CANADA fax: 877-765-6948 tel: 800-741-0320 admin@albanyranch.com 3105: Cheap WebHosting!  Tel: (212) 613 3156 Fax: (877) 765 6948

Official Spin MPC Trust 1133 Broadway Suite 706 New York, NY 10010 USA Tel: (212) 613 3156 Fax: (877) 765 6948

 * This is also a rented mailbox/voicemail see . ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 05:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * A "sample" of the address is:
 * Clients name / Company Name
 * 1133 Broadway, Suite XXX
 * New York, NY 10010
 * Virtual NY Office Address 12 Months = $350
 * Virtual Office address on Broadway in midtown Manhattan. Includes use of shared 212 fax number.
 * Virtual Office address on Broadway in midtown Manhattan. Includes use of shared 212 fax number.

SUPA TAG 1133 Broadway, Suite 706 New York, NY 10010 Tel: (212) 613 3156 Fax: (877) 765 6948

 * See post above, rented mailbox/voicemail. ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 05:20, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

FrugalEscrow 244 Fifth Avenue 2nd Floor, Suite 2003 New York, NY 10001-7604 USA Tel: (212) 613-3156 Fax: (877) 765-6948

 * See post above, rented mailbox/voicemail. ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 05:20, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Also worthy of note is that the only way to make payment to any of these businesses is either via PAYPAL or by purchasing something from CAFE PRESS. Be it their QuakeAID g-string, "BOMBING FOR PEACE is like FUCKING FOR VIRGINITY" coffee mug, or their suggestive "THATS A NICE ITALIAN SAUSAGE" tote bag which then leads you to a non-existent product website.

 * Yes, QuakeAID shop also sells thongs for charitable purpose.

 * I also find it strange that so many branches of the corporation would all use the 1 phone/fax number as well. Most businesses have at least 2 lines. (hell my home office has 3!) ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 05:23, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Internet Archive's Wayback Machine currently unsearchable.
Possibly due to *whatever* reasons ranging from server failure to DDoS attack. Please check Internet Archive's press release or news for its future availability.

Here's one complementary service to IA's Wayback Machine - Coral (network). It is a P2P (DDoS resistent) network for caching webpages. I tried accessing the unreachable Wayback Machine search results with Coral, but no luck yet (possibly due to Wayback's unique url string). However, we can still use Coral Network for every other webpage. Simply append the text string ".nyud.net:8090" onto the original domain name, with directory structure intact.

http://www.apple.com/macosx (coralized into...) http://www.apple.com .nyud.net:8090 /macosx

With Coral Network, I felt refrained, but obligated to say... "DDoS this!".

--Godric 22:53, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

History of lawsuits
Greg Lloyd Smith (also reported as Gregg Lloyd Smith and Greg Loyd Smith) and his wife Katerina Theohari-Smith (a.k.a. Aikaterini Theochari (Greek: Κατερινα Θεοχαρη) a.k.a "Kaith" (pseudonym)) have established a number of lawsuits, mostly due to domain name disputes, and in one case involving alleged racketeering and extortion. The parent companies that the Smith family have entered into business with include CITI Services, Kestrel Trading Company, MPC, and, most recently, BAOU, Inc. They are typically identified under their incorporated name or their trust name.

 * 1) Amazon.com, Inc. files suit against Greg Lloyd Smith (and CITI Services), alleging extortion, mail fraud, wire fraud, and other racketeering activities.
 * http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/185111
 * http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,21321,00.html
 * http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/08/18/amazon_com_sues_amazon_gr/
 * http://news.com.com/2100-1017-230584.html?legacy=cnet
 * 1) Greg Lloyd Smith of Kestrel Trading Company sued by Bonnier Media Limited for alleged extortion practices.
 * http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/DRU2606.html
 * 1) Charges of defamation, libel and negligence filed against Intercosmos Media Group, Inc. by Greg Lloyd Smith of the Kestrel Trading Corporation.  Intercosmos wins the suit.
 * http://www.theezine.net/articles/56/Intercosmos-Wins-Summary-Judgement-Against-English-Business.html
 * 1) MadeForChina brings legal action against New York registered MPC Trust alleging the abusive use of domain name WWW.MADEFORCHINA.COM.
 * http://www.interfax.com/com?id=5657991&item=Chin
 * 1) Greg Lloyd Smith of FirstNet allegedly spoofs Network Solutions into transferring web traffic from NIKE.COM to his own webservers.
 * http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37286,00.html
 * http://www.whoisfinder.com/news/200007/nike-hijacked-blames-nsi.html
 * 1) The Smith family repeatedly challenges the WIPO in an attempt to regain control of QUAKEAID.COM:
 * http://www.worldlii.org/int/cases/GENDND/2002/1543.html
 * http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/decisions/html/2002/d2002-0815.html
 * 1) Greg Lloyd Smith of Mykonos, Greece files a complaint against "Harry Carr" with the WIPO in an attempt to grab domains gregglloydsmith.com>,  and .  After trademarking his own name he successfully obtains the domains via WIPO arbitration.
 * http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/decisions/html/2002/d2002-0844.html
 * 1) Greg Lloyd Smith establishes free email site YOUVEGOTPOST.COM to compete with Gmail, offering a terabyte of mail storage.  Allegations were made that Greg Lloyd Smith voided incoming messages from GMAIL.COM, and selectively read and deleted other user's mail.  Within 12 hours of the terabyte offering the storage space was cut to 20 megabytes.
 * http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=184460&hl=youvegotpost
 * http://www.emailaddresses.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=226311
 * http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-22151
 * http://help.lockergnome.com/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=21978

Quotation from :
 * Reviewer: A customer from Australia
 * The guy who runs the You've Got Post system is an absolute scumbag. He likes to use aliases - his current webmaster, Amy, is almost definitely a front. His name is Greg Lloyd Smith. Type his name into Google, see what pops up.

 * After unsuccessfully trying to take a company called Frugalescrow public (total loss) he went on to bigger things. MPC Trading, the company allegedly behind Youvegotpost, also dabbles in small time porn sites and whatever else he thinks can turn a quick buck. All this is fueled by officialspin.com, the 'press release' site he uses to try to promote the companies he backs, and to flame people who look at what he does with a careful eye.
 * GLS is the genius who originally conceived of registering www.amazon.com.gr in Greece, and then tried to sell it back to Amazon for millions. He was sued by Amazon using the RICO (Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations) stautes, and the URL now belongs to Amazon.

 * GLS also tried to sue Nike, but nothing came of that either.

 * This guy is a nasty piece of work. He is also a complete failure as a businessman.

 * If you do a little research on You've Got Post you'll find that they claim to be based in the UK, yet their business name isn't registered there. Their press releases claim that they are in Malaysia, and their actual servers are located in the US. Judging from "her" emails, the ISP that "Amy" uses is from Greece...not really a surprise considering that GLS is from Greece (hence his registration of the amazon.com.gr domain years back.)

 * Add to that that their "administrator" "Amy" has admitted to reading emails, and claims that its not illegal because "they aren't US based", and even claimed that there was no such thing as international law!

 * These are scammers trying to get a quick buck. Use Yahoo or GMail.

Whois QUAKEAID.ORG
Checking server [whois.publicinterestregistry.net]
 * Domain ID:D11224816-LROR
 * Domain Name:QUAKEAID.ORG
 * Created On:12-Oct-1999 10:58:10 UTC
 * Last Updated On:07-Jan-2005 10:37:25 UTC
 * Expiration Date:12-Oct-2005 10:58:10 UTC
 * Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
 * Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
 * Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
 * Registrant ID:turpGvZtTeHEjulX
 * Registrant Name:. Legal Department
 * Registrant Organization:QuakeAID Foundation, Inc.
 * Registrant Street1:244 Fifth Avenue
 * Registrant Street2:2nd Floor, Suite 2003
 * Registrant Street3:
 * Registrant City:New York
 * Registrant State/Province:NY
 * Registrant Postal Code:10001-7604
 * Registrant Country:US
 * Registrant Phone:+1.2126133156
 * Registrant Phone Ext.:
 * Registrant FAX:+1.8777656948
 * Registrant FAX Ext.:
 * Registrant Email:admin@quakeaid.org
 * Admin ID:tuomCdjsxfeDWz9n
 * Admin Name:. Legal Department
 * Admin Organization:QuakeAID Foundation, Inc.
 * Admin Street1:244 Fifth Avenue
 * Admin Street2:2nd Floor, Suite 2003
 * Admin Street3:
 * Admin City:New York
 * Admin State/Province:NY
 * Admin Postal Code:10001-7604
 * Admin Country:US
 * Admin Phone:+1.2126133156
 * Admin Phone Ext.:
 * Admin FAX:+1.8777656948
 * Admin FAX Ext.:
 * Admin Email:admin@quakeaid.org
 * Tech ID:tuGsWbaBzoiKSNH1
 * Tech Name:. 3105: Cheap WebHosting!
 * Tech Organization:Baou, Inc.
 * Tech Street1:244 Fifth Avenue
 * Tech Street2:2nd Floor, Suite 2003
 * Tech Street3:
 * Tech City:New York
 * Tech State/Province:NY
 * Tech Postal Code:10001-7604
 * Tech Country:US
 * Tech Phone:+1.2126133156
 * Tech Phone Ext.:
 * Tech FAX:+1.8777656948
 * Tech FAX Ext.:
 * Tech Email:admin@3105.com
 * Name Server:DNS1.BAOU.COM
 * Name Server:DNS2.BAOU.COM
 * Name Server:DNS3.BAOU.COM

 * You will note that the phone number and mailing address for both the Webhosting company, and BAOU, Inc. are the same, and both a Virtual NY Office as pointed out above. Personally i've never known a legal department to use a questionable mail forwarding service, ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 18:04, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * 8777656948 (that is 877-765-6948) is also the fax number listed for the whois information for the website http://www.wikipediaclassaction.org/

Original research
I don't think this article is original research yet, but it's getting pretty close. It is a good resource, but the function of this (or any other) Wikipedia article should only be to summarize information available at other sources. We shouldn't draw conclusions, such as whether or not QuakeAID is fraudulent. See No original research.

Also a note on POV. Especially considering the litigious subject of this article, please don't use words like "pander", "deceptive", "spreading false rumors", etc. Rhobite 22:43, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

Again, it is never OK for Wikipedia to call something "deceptive" or a "false rumor". Furthermore the term "logrolling" doesn't even mean what you accuse them of doing. You're also misusing the Latin term "i.e." which roughly means "that is to say". You should use "for example", because Latin abbreviations are scholarly and commonly misunderstood.

And a question about your examples, are you saying that Google and Donald Rumsfeld are QuakeAID's competitors? Are they not allowed to write editorial articles on their own web site? Wikipedia does not make value judgments. Please don't reinstate your POV statements. If a critic of QuakeAID outside of Wikipedia has made these accusations, please cite it. See Neutral point of view, and please discuss your changes on Talk:QuakeAID. Rhobite 23:26, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I removed boldface...
I didn't think it was appropriate to stress one part of the article by a use of boldface; see above. So I rewrote it slightly, in such a way that each bullet point is followed by a short statement of the relevant point.

When I got to the stuff about Baou using OfficialWire to self-promote QuakeAID, I wasn't quite sure what to do. It didn't really seem to fit the format of the other bullet points. So I deboldfaced it and put it in its own section and otherwise left it alone. I don't really like this section; it's not as clearcut as the others. For the others, it is possible to state an NPOV fact and let readers draw their own inferences. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...and I toned down what I thought were a couple of overstatements.
I hope this doesn't offend the editors who wrote them. (I didn't peruse the edit history and don't know who did). If reverted, I will not revert back. My philosophy is, when there is a set of facts that convinces me of something, but doesn't absolutely prove it, it's OK to present the set of facts that led me to the conclusion, but not to draw the conclusion. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:38, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I've reviewed the edits by you and others and as it stands, everything appears to have been fairly revised. When I first nominated this article for deletion, I did so on the purely on the grounds of vanity and self-promotion (possible greed, possible fraud) and have tried to remain as neutral as possible, especially in light of recent events.    Within a few hours though, I realized just how far this rabbit hole really goes — and continues to keep going.
 * If anyone is falsely accusing Greg Lloyd Smith of something, they're really not doing themselves (or Wikipedia) any favors. At this point, it is fairly (blatantly?) obvious that A and B lead to C, but Wikipedia isn't the proper place to declare C as fact — the readers can and will determine that on their own.  If QuakeAID were indeed a legitimate charity, one of Greg's on-line personas would have used this time wisely and disclosed on this page how and where they've distributed funds and what the money was allegedly spent on.  Rather, Greg has used this as a forum for vandalism and flame wars in an attempt to pick a fight he cannot win.  This probably isn't the sort of boosterism he originally had in mind.  —RaD Man (talk) 08:57, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Saying that QuakeAID "fraudulently" claims something is a violation of the NPOV policy. Adding them to Category:Fraud is also expressing a POV. Document all you want here, it's a good page, but please remember that the NPOV policy is non-negotiable, no matter how despicable or guilty you believe the subject is. Rhobite 04:42, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * NPOV is one thing, but please do not make unqualified edits to articles. It is factually verifiable, not point of view, that the Charities Bureau of New York State does not recognize QuakeAID as a "non-profit New York corporation".  This is indeed a fraudulent misrepresentation and nothing less.  —RaD Man (talk)1 05:57, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * So write that NY state doesn't recognise QuakeAID as a non-profit corporation. No need to say they're fraudulent, let the reader make up their own mind. --fvw* 06:18, 2005 Jan 10 (UTC)
 * Stop these silly personal attacks. Whining that I'm unqualified to edit this article is pointless and rude. Rad Man please discuss your edits here. What you are doing is saying that QuakeAID's claim that it's a non-profit corporation proves some sort of fraud. Obviously this is a determination for the courts to prove, not Wikipedia. There are a number of requirements to prove a claim of fraud, misrepresentation is just one of these requirements. Fraud is a legal term with a specific meaning. If you're not going to link to a court case which finds QuakeAID's statement to be fraudulent, please don't accuse them of fraud in this article. Rhobite 05:54, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * I also want to point out that any organization can claim that it is non-profit. The term "non-profit" is legally meaningless, it doesn't require any special tax status to claim this. It's rare, but it is conceivable for a legitimate charity to exist without tax-exempt status. Claiming that the company is "non-profit" isn't proof of fraud - as I mentioned above, to prove fraud in court one would have to prove actual damages and intent. Rhobite 06:04, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with the current text, "QuakeAID represents themselves as a non-profit New York corporation, yet on the same page's footnote declares they are not." I do have a problem if Wikipedia concludes that QuakeAID misrepresents something. As I've explained, it's conceivable for a non-profit company to exist without tax status. Let the reader make conclusions; I believe this article is damning enough already, without Wikipedia exposing itself to libel claims. Agreed? Rhobite 06:11, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * QuakeAID is neither a non-profit nor is it a corporation in the state of New York. This is pretty basic misrepresentation, kids.  Don't take it as an insult that you're unqualified to make edits you're unqualified to make.   —RaD Man (talk) 06:36, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Tone it down. You may fashion yourself as some sort of Internet celebrity or crusader or something. That doesn't give you a license to be rude here. Rhobite 06:56, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * FWIW I'm inclined to agree with what Rhobite has said. Sadly, I think QuakeAID has deliberately and carefully chosen their wording so that, perhaps even in the worst case (for them), they are in a legal grey area.  And unfortunately, that doesn't constitute fraud. Gyrofrog 08:29, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Folks, let's stick to the verifiable facts. I removed Category:Fraud because to my knowledge there is no documented finding that QuakeAID engaged in any fraud.  As others have pointed out, we're dealing with an organization run by people who are familiar with lawsuits, both as plaintiffs/pursuers and defendants/defenders.  It is imperative that all controversial claims are backed up by links and citations.  Saying that misrepresentation is happening is an inference a reader may draw when presented with the verifiable facts, but we cannot and need not make that judgement.  If there is published material where a credible third party claims that QuakeAID misrepresented their status, that source can be cited.  I agree with Gyrofrog that QuakeAID is legally on the safe side: their website doesn't really promise much.  Their statement of purpose is consistent with them downloading reports from usgs.gov and publishing a newsletter as their sole activities. --MarkSweep 15:35, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I see where you're going, and don't disagree any of the points you've made, except for the very last one. Their stated purpose(s) also include(s) "financial relief, housing, food and water, clothing, other support".  We'll just have to wait until a credible news agency (*cough*) reports on this matter or the government gets involved.  —RaD Man (talk) 16:02, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I think you may be reading the bullet points on their web page as a conjunction. However, it's possible that QuakeAID would interpret their mission as a disjunction of these items, i.e., their mission includes research, eduction, humanitarian efforts, etc.  Nowhere does it say that they engage in activites pertaining to all of the items within the scope of their stated goals, or, if they do, that all activities receive equal funding.  We basically don't know anything about what QuakeAID does, as opposed to, say, the Red Cross/Crescent, MSF, UNICEF, etc. --MarkSweep 16:20, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Mark, if you are my job interviewer and I presented you with my resume. It says that I, Godric, 1) am a master graduate of computer science, 2) have done several considerably big projects on web systems, 3) did numerous volunteer works since 1998. However, my resume didn't provide you with ANY reference of my claims listed, would you still find me credible? And with this doubt in your mind, you ask me for the corresponding references; but upon this inquiry, I still cannot give you ANY of those references in question. Would you still think that I'm being honest, credible, and most importantly, not-lying?

 * It's basically the same case on donation-soliciting websites. They are soliciting donation from donors with their website's presentation of their mission and deeds; and it's just like that I am asking the interviewer for a job with my resume of my qualifications. The point is that, if I craft my resume meticulously in a way that I hope the interviewer's radar misses my bluffs, then it's not credible by motive to start with. Furthermore, it's actually considered fraudulent when caught red-handed without any supporting reference to my claims.

 * It may well be tolerated in the job-interviewing context in the business world; and it might even be a common practice. But it's absolutely intolerable in the dontation-soliciting context, because that's taking advantage of people's good heart and hard-earned money with misrepresentation and calculated exit strategies, while the victims are most emotionally vulnerable to being misled.

 * So, in a nutshell, can I tell you, my interviewer, that the qualifications I listed on my resume are all of "disjunction", even down to the supporting reference level; and therefore, I am a 100% legitimate and credible interviewee? And most importantly, can I tell this exact same argument to a judge? Call me naive, but I don't think the QuakeAID website's presentation is "legally on the safe side" at all; but IANAL, therefore, I'm only postulating... --Godric 09:41, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

More minor NPOV-ing
I changed one paragraph and removed another from the "legitimacy" section.

I changed

 * QuakeAID's parent company, BAOU, Inc., runs all its offices out of 2 "Virtual NY Offices" via the offshore management firms OFFSHORESIMPLE.COM and NYMAIL.COM, providing QuakeAID with the illusion that it maintains a business office in New York (which in fact is nothing more than a post office box and automated voicemail service)., all subsidiaries share same phone/fax number.

to read

 * QuakeAID's parent company, BAOU, Inc., runs all its offices out of 2 "Virtual NY Offices" via the offshore management firms OFFSHORESIMPLE.COM and NYMAIL.COM. That is, QuakeAID's New York "office" is unstaffed and consists of a post office box and an automated voicemail service., all subsidiaries share same phone/fax number.

Although false facades are not confidence-inspiring and do raise at least a small red flag, I don't think the word "illusion" is fair. Many perfectly legitimate companies use what seems to me to be dishonest illusory facades. Post office boxes are often called "suites," for example. Many companies, including Microsoft, outsource operations such as technical support, but the outsourcer that answers the call always identifies itself as "Microsoft" rather than, say, "Corporate Software Inc, Canton, MA"). Playing devil's advocate, it can even be argued that a New York virtual office provides a real service by saving postage and long-distance telephone costs for people in the U. S. trying to contact QuakeAID. So, while it is fair to call attention to the sketchy nature of their New York office, castigating it as an "illusion" is going too far.

I've removed this point:

 * QuakeAID's slogan is "Shake up the neighborhood", a potentially offensive pun on its relation to earthquakes.

The reason is that regardless of what anyone may think of the slogan, I don't honestly see how a poorly-chosen slogan raises any serious legitimacy question.

Oh, and I made a change yesterday, from
 * "The founders of QuakeAID and the current parent company, BAOU, Inc., are based out of Greece and have a history of using domain names as instruments of fraud."

to
 * "In the past, a judge ruled that one of the founders had used a domain name—"business-am.com", see below—as "an instrument of fraud"

The reason I mention the specific domain name is just to make it perfectly clear that it was not QuakeAID, but a totally different website, that was said to be "an instrument of fraud."

The reason I made the change is to conform to the NPOV mantra, "A said B about C." Putting the word "fraud" in the mouth of a judge rather than simply stating it is not only more neutral, but perhaps even strengthens the point. I couldn't think of a short, clearly NPOV way to justify a use of the phrase "history of fraud." It doesn't seem very clear or convincing to say "business-a.m., a party to a lawsuit with a founder of QuakeAID, which it eventually won, describes Smith as having 'a history of fraud.'"

Again, I'm not trying to boost QuakeAID nor step on anyone's toes, and, again, if anyone reverts I will not revert back. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:49, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I agree with these changes and I was considering modifying those sections as well. Rhobite 19:48, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Second that. --MarkSweep 23:31, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Who cares about what they sell on CafePress?
Really, I think you're going overboard, Godrickwok. The CafePress stuff is amusing to discuss here, but I don't think it belongs in the main article.

Selling CafePress merchandise is not a sign of illegitimacy.

Selling CafePress thongs is not a sign of illegitimacy.

In fact: take a look at this:

http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia.16059824

I strongly, strongly suggest you remove the CafePress section. Please. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:07, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not however a "non profit charity", it is a business and therefore it is allowed to make a profit, If you pay attention QuakeAID claims that the Cafepress sales go towards the QuakeAID non profit, however all of its profits instead go to the BAOU, Inc. accts. That in itself is a reason to question its legitimacy on cafepress sales. ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 02:45, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Uh, no. "The Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. is an international non-profit organization". --MarkSweep 02:50, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, then again I guess thongs should be expected considering Wikipedia's owned by a porn company. <font color="#FA8605">ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 03:48, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * NO IT IS NOT owned by a porn company. You can't even really say that Wikipedia is owned by the foundation. It CERTAINLY is not owned by any porn company. --mav 21:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I rarely say this: ROTFL. Touché! Yes, let's please get rid of the CafePress section. --MarkSweep 02:48, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I am a bit torn on this one. It does seem to be a bit overblown, but in the end it does demonstrate something in a clear and NPOV manner; there is no distinct separation between "QuakeAID, Inc." and "BAOU, Inc."  — It can be left up to the reader whether or not the sale of g-string panties by a "charity" dedicated to earthquake disaster relief is tasteless.    —RaD Man (talk)  08:12, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * And to answer the question at hand, "Who cares...?", it appears somebody out there does care and is taking notice — changes are being made to the CafePress website, possibly as a direct result of this article. —RaD Man (talk)  08:15, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, then let me say this: I think the QuakeAID web page would look more professional with a mauve/fuchsia color scheme. --MarkSweep 08:26, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dpbsmith and MarkSweep, the point of the so-called "CafePress thong section" was not at all about the "thong" itself, nor is it about "illegitimacy due to thong-selling"; but it is about the fact that there happens a "withdrawal of the thongs" incident. I didn't claim that they are illegitimate as a proclaimed charity because of thong-selling in my section, did I? My section was solely about the "Recent changes of their websites", as a reflection of changes in their policies.

All I provided were nothing but facts, screenshots, dates, and links as evidence and presented in clear NPOV manner. Then all these talks of removal and ROTFL lead me to ask you one question: Where do you get that I was attempting in proving their illegitimacy over the thongs? Out of your own POV?

I presented the whole section abiding to NPOV with solid evidence, yet you advocated the removal of it based on your own POV? Should I RTOFLMAO too?

Btw, if wikipedia sells thongs too, let it be. Put it onto the wikipedia donation page if it's abiding to NPOV, I couldn't care less. Who said thongs are embarrasing? They are just clothes, human wears clothes, so what?

Supplemental: Every action has its reaction. If one org sells thongs for charitable cause, whoever that is okay with charitable thongs will be happy to buy it. If another org doesn't like selling thongs for charity, then whoever doesn't like buying charitable thongs will go for this organization instead. Both are totally legitimate for their own respective audiences. This is NPOV.

Supplemental 4: The reason why NASA, TakingITGlobal, WaveRelief, G4TechTV, and possibly also VolunteerMatch next will delist QuakeAID from their sites is because they are all not QuakeAID's audiences. Their organizations' ideals are not in-line with QuakeAID's ideals. However bizarre one might think this is, the delistings are in fact not because of the violation of some abstract objective legitimacy standards; but mainly due to the "conflict of subjective ideals".

CafePress has no problem at all in affiliating with QuakeAID, because their ideals are in-line with QuakeAID's over the respective context, which is product-sale. CafePress could be caring less about the matter of "charity's legitimacy", they might only be concerning about "more affiliate = more sale = more profit".

However, NASA, TakingITGlobal, WaveRelief, G4TechTV care more about their "image of legitimacy", therefore they decided to detach themselves from the dubious QuakeAID image.

Supplemental 2: RadMan gets "there is no distinct separation between 'QuakeAID, Inc.' and 'BAOU, Inc.'" from my section; and MarkSweep & dpbsmith gets "selling thongs aren't illegitimate!!!" from the very same section; this shows that my section is NPOV, it is not biased towards a particular POV, since 2 parties read out 2 interpretations. Who knows what other readers will read out of my section?

Lastly, who is the company behind the wikipedia thongs? I want to know this so badly. I hope it's officially by Wikimedia Foundation Inc. Otherwise if not, it's kinda revealing... you know what I mean. (they are of Wikimedia, just checked) --Godric 08:43, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

I think I should have added "Thongs & Caps & Tees", or simply "Apparel" in order to stick more strictly with NPOV. --Godric 08:50, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

Supplemental 3: But "charitable thongs" are unusual and notable, therefore I chose to put it up-front. However, readers can clearly see most of the other products available for sale in the screenshot; in short, I don't see anything biased in my section.

P.S. Sorry for misspelling January so many times... haaaa :D

 * Godric, nobody said, and I certainly don't think, you were acting in bad faith. I personally don't care one way or another about the thong thing: if an organization is doing good work and manages to raise money from thong sales, more power to them; if a seedy organization sells thongs, that doesn't make them any better or worse. However, specifically singling out thongs could be misunderstood and "apparel" would have been the more inclusive term. The fact that these items disappeared is interesting, but it's just another item in an already long list of sudden changes.  I'm not sure if it's worth documenting this in a lot of detail. --MarkSweep 18:53, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Godric, the work you've been doing on this article is valuable and appreciated. The material I didn't like seems to be gone now so I don't want to flog a dead horse. All I want to say is: keep the article neutral, and as you develop germane facts about QuakeAID, resist the temptation to cram all of them into the article as you find them. Put them here in Talk, let the group mull them over, and just put the cream of them in. What does a reader who looks up QuakeAID, need to know about this organization? And keep in mind that we do not seem to have any currently-active editors interested in defending QuakeAID's legitimacy, so we need to be careful to avoid the natural tendency for the article's balance to slowly drift in the other direction Dpbsmith (talk) 19:17, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you guys for the understanding. I admit that my section did induce misunderstanding due to its bareness and I am sorry for any trouble it caused. I was going to write about the recent changes in their main site and related sites, namely the subscription box, the product disappearance, and the new 800 toll free line, as an indicator of their policy change in adaptation to outside influences (information, delistings, etc.).

 * For example, the "newsletter subscription box" newly introduced onto their front page is absolutely notable. Since according to Wayback history log, they have never placed a "newsletter subscription box" onto their front page before. And there were no link about newsletter presented in their recent history (since June 11, 2003). The last time a newsletter link shown was showing a more-than-a-year-old newsletter dated January 4, 2002 . This is definitely a new or newly revived policy, and also possibly a reaction adapting to recent outside influences.

 * With this new subscription box coupled with the new recruitment rally of 150 (!) volunteers at VolunteerMatch.org, the flash-disappearance and re-appearance of products at CafePress, and the new 800 toll free hotline (spotted by RadMan, and I also noticed it when I browsed through their contact at VolunteerMatch.org). I suspect that the hotline is probably CREATED FOR VolunteerMatch's rally ; all these tell me that QuakeAID is adapting to the turned-tides, so to speak, caused by recent happenings.

 * I think it's rational to suspect that they are trying hard to "beautify" (I won't say "repair") their image in a hurry with all these recent "upgrades" (newsletter, recruitment (150!), hotline). You know, humans learn and adapt, all in the name of survival. They learned and are adapting, and so should wikipedians. I'm not speaking for everyone, sure I am not eligible to; but I'm only speaking (I wish!) for those who are interested in the QuakeAID case. I speak, because tides do turn. Once the beautifying process is complete, the current facts in this page will become past fantasies (track record, phone lines, newsletter, etc.).

 * In the internet world, being a Big-Brother-wannabe is relatively easy. A newswire spamming disinformation to search engines would be a good example. Search Engine "Optimization" (SEO) is also a good one. Let's remember what this page is for, besides logging histories that would become fantasies soon enough. This is why I took all those screenshots, cached all those pages, and marked all those timestamps; because they are history logged as usual, but independent of the Big Brother's constant revision (rewriting).

 * Again, even though I'm beating the horse's corpse still, my section was not about the thongs; but it is about adapting to what QuakeAID has been adapting at. It's a race for the motivated, or we can simply give up and turn to other interests. Everyone here is, afterall, a volunteer to some degree more or less. I personally don't want to see Orwell wins; but fate has its course sometimes overriding the individuals'; however there are always exceptions.

 * So far so much for my babbles, have a good laugh if you must, haa. Godric out. --Godric 11:44, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I fully agree that the recent changes are notable and should be documented. Thanks for staying on the lookout and documenting these ongoing developments. Cheers, --MarkSweep 03:03, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thongs and CafePress
I confess to some curiosity as to how users of CafePress select the items to be offered. User:Eloquence has confirmed my surmise that "For [CafePress] Premium Shops, it is quite easy to add an entire product range with the same logo. That's what I did, and the thong was one of them." Not that it matters since I understand this is irrelevant to the point Godric's was trying to make, but I thought others might be interested. It's an (ill-chosen, I would have thought) item in an easily-selected package deal. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:56, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Whois WikipediaClassAction.org
It's pretty clear that wikipediaclassaction.org was created by the same organization as QuakeAID.

Registrant Name:Jennifer Monroe Registrant Street1:PO Box 998 Registrant City:Long Beach Registrant State/Province:NY Registrant Postal Code:11561-0998 Registrant Country:US Registrant Phone:+1.8668717368 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX:+1.8777656948 Registrant Email:lawsuit@wikipediaclassaction.org Name Server:DNS1.BAOU.COM Name Server:DNS2.BAOU.COM Name Server:DNS3.BAOU.COM

Jennifer Monroe clearly works at QuakeAID, and the address clearly matches. And their news service has covered Wikipedia as well. --Interiot 19:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I just talked on the phone to wikipediaclassaction.org -- the man I talked to denied that the organization had anything to do with QuakeAID, and said that the reason the post office box was the same was that they had the same ISP (do ISPs even administer P.O. boxes)? Summary of the conversation

 * Jennifer Monroe's name is very clearly on the WHOIS record for WikipediaClassAction.org. Jennifer Monroe has also been listed as a spokesperson for QuakeAID  , making it unlikely that the "We share ISP's" reply would work for Jennifer.  --Interiot 04:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

At least get the easy to verify facts right
They are a New York corporation

NYS Department of State Division of Corporations Entity Information Selected Entity Name: QUAKEAID FOUNDATION, INC. Selected Entity Status Information Current Entity Name: 	QUAKEAID FOUNDATION, INC. Initial DOS Filing Date: 	JANUARY 19, 2005 County: 	NEW YORK Jurisdiction: 	NEW YORK Entity Type: 	DOMESTIC NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION Current Entity Status: 	ACTIVE Selected Entity Address Information DOS Process (Address to which DOS will mail process if accepted on behalf of the entity) C/O PRESIDENTAL SERVICES INCORPORATED 23404 W.LYONS AVE #223 SANTA CLARITA, CALIFORNIA, 91321 Registered Agent NONE

NOTE: New York State does not issue organizational identification numbers.

They are registered as a New York charity

Registration Section Charities Bureau 120 Broadway, 3rd Floor New York, NY 10271 REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION Registration Status:	UP TO DATE Today's Date:	12/12/2005 The following organization registered with the New York State Attorney General's Charities Bureau pursuant to the statute(s) noted below and is  current in its filings. Organization Name:	QUAKEAID FOUNDATION, INC. Address: 244 FIFTH AVENUE 2ND FLOOR STE 2003 NEW YORK, NY 10001-7604 County:	NEW YORK Federal ID No. (EIN):	20-2072945 NY State Reg. No.:	20-97-87 Registration Type:	DUAL Last Annual Report Filed, Fiscal Year Ending:	NO FILINGS RECEIVED They are a 501(c)3

Begin New Search Show 	 « Prev | 1-1 | Next » Name 	City 	State 	Country 	Code Quakeaid Foundation Inc. (Until December 2009) 	New York 	 NY 	USA 	-- « Prev | 1-1 | Next »

So if the basic, easy to verify information is wrong, what does that imply for the credibility of the rest of the article which is little more than vague accusations? This article lacks meaningful facts, is wrong on the obvious facts and should be cleaned up or delete. mdavis 03:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually QuakeAID was neither a New York charity nor a 501(c)(3) at the time the article first appeared in Jan. 2005. But otherwise, you're right, this information needs to be brought up to date. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Is anyone willing to do the work of actually editing pages any more? The Cunctator 06:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It appears someone already took care of it, in between the time Mdavis left his or her comments, and the time I responded here and actually went back to look at the article. For what it's worth, see User:Baoutrust's own comments from Jan. 2005 elsewhere on this page regarding the then-current lack of tax-exempt status. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 06:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Would someone be able to add links pointing to the websites where the above information on company and charity registration can be verified? (-Reed)

 * IRS search facility for its 501(c)(3) organizations list. Link from QuakeAID's website that indicates a registration with the NY Attorney General's charities bureau. --Michael Snow 00:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * If not being registered as a NY corp, and not being registered as a NY charity, and not having 501(c)3 status were listed as questions about legitimacy then should the opposite list of facts be listed as indicating legitimacy? Or does that not fit the POV of the article?

 * "the earliest documented evidence of the organization's existence" is the registration of the domain name is illogical. Organizations can exist before they register a domain name.  Has someone checked every record in QuakeAid's  office to determine that there isn't a single document dated prior to 12-Oct-99?  mdavis 15:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * They do not have a physical presense in NYC nor an office of any type that I have been able to ascertain having been to the "office address" in NYC while there for a rave a few weeks back. The "office" location is actually a Mail Box forwarding service. I'm sure we can get someone else in NYC to photograph said location if need be. As such its rather hard to check any paperwork in their "office" 68.238.52.225 16:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * If you haven't checked the paperwork then how do you know you have the "earliest documented evidence"? 66.55.0.146 17:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Doh! forgot to sign in... <font color="#FA8605">ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 16:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Added the NYS Corp Addres filing info. I think it's important to note that QuakeAid's NY corporate registration address is actually "The UPS Store" - IE, a false address.  Their Non-profit filing address is also the same mail forwarding service "nymail.com" as used in the domain registrar info. CrazyLittle 20:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Why is that important? A UPS box is not a false address and using a PO or UPS box is a very common and legitimate setup for many organizations. Where do you think the mail goes to at Wikipedia?  It goes to a UPS store.  mdavis 12:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * 1) Here's why it's important:
 * "Be skeptical of organizations which list only post office boxes, mail drop suites, or out-of-state addresses and phone numbers. " -- When You Are Asked to Give, Georgia Secretary of State
 * "Don't send contributions to a post office box." Charitable Contributions--The Facts About Giving Wisely, Utah Division of Consumer Protection
 * "Never send contributions to a post office box unless you know the charity," Charity Donations: Know the Facts Before You Give! Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
 * "Be wary of businesses that operate out of post office boxes or mail drops and do not have a street address, or of dealing with persons who do not have a direct telephone line." Common fraud schemes, the FBI
 * etc. etc. Doubtless it's silly for all of these government agencies to feel that way, but there you have it. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * 2) I cannot confirm that "Wikimedia Foundation Inc. 3911 Harrisburg St. NE, St. Petersburg, FL 33703" is a UPS store. Are you sure? The only UPS Stores I can find in St. Petersburg, FL are at 200 2nd Avenue Southeast, 6822 22nd Avenue North, 6860 Gulfport Boulevard South, 10460 Roosevelt Boulevard North, and 204 37th Avenue North. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not. The address to which mdavis is referring is the one indicated at Designated agent. --Michael Snow 20:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * So, what exactly is located at 3911 Harrisburg St. NE? Dpbsmith (talk) 21:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually I was referring the address listed on Wikimedia's "contact us" page and their donations page which I can confirm is a UPS postal box.  Wikimedia wants donors to send checks to a postal box. mdavis 22:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * ACTUALLY, wikipedia prefers payment via paypal, not via snail mail, but includes the snail mail option due to user requests. <font color="#FA8605">ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 23:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * ACTUALLY, wikipedia prefers payment via snail mail not paypal which charges a fee for each transaction, but offers paypal for the convenience of the donors. I have confirmed this with the treasurer of Wikimedia. mdavis 23:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

 * It's still a legitimate concern, when you take into consideration that none of QuakeAID's, Baoutrust's, or Greg Lloyd Smith have a physical address in the United States.CrazyLittle 00:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Who is this article about QuakeAID or QuakeAID Foundation, Inc.?
The title of this article is QuakeAID yet much of the information is sourced from QuakeAID Foundation, Inc. The article implies that QuakeAID and QuakeAID Foundation, Inc. are the same organization. It is entirely possible that an organization called QuakeAID Foundation, Inc. legitimately exists as a NY corp but other organizations named QuakeAID may exist in other states or countries. The article should clearly state that QuakeAID refers to QuakeAID Foundation, Inc., the NY company. If not then it must be carefully explained to the reader which organization is being discussed.mdavis 04:52, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * This article should probably be generalized into one on BAOU Trust as it seems this is more about everything BAOU does than just what the Quake AID organization is up to. <font color="#FA8605">ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 08:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

This belongs on Wikinews
There are quite a lot of valuable questions to ask about this organization, most notably its association with Greg Lloyd Smith, the Holocaust denial and political propaganda on OfficialWire (not currently discussed here), and its lack of disclosure regarding its use of donations. On the other hand, the amount of effort put into its operations, justvolunteers.org, and its high visibility due to its news wire, legal threats, etc. stand in contrast to the assumption that it is a typical scam.

It's certainly an interesting story, but I don't think Wikipedia should be writing it. This is a fairly obvious and continuing violation of No original research, with lots of sleuthing by many volunteers. There are very few outside publications cited in this article, most of it is based on what Wikipedians have found in various records.

A good way to deal with this issue might be for those who care about this issue to start working on a Wikinews article. It could be tagged with, indicating that its content is being heavily developed. Wikinews explicitly allows original reporting, so any amount of sleuthing is more than welcome, as long as the reporting steps are documented on the article talk page. If, in the course of the research, the evidence that QuakeAID is a scam solidifies, we can publish an article.

This would have the following advantages vs. the current approach:
 * Information is not put into a published form with the "Wikipedia" logo on top of it until it has been verified by multiple editors.
 * Wikipedia itself will be able to cite the Wikinews article as an outside source.
 * If QuakeAID is exposed as a scam, a story on Wikinews is more likely to get outside attention from other media.

Note that an article has already been started here; it may be useful to use this as a starting template. I suggest that, on the other hand, this Wikipedia article is limited to a bare, stubbish minimum of facts without insinuations, detialed website history, etc., until we've properly checked all facts on the matter.--Eloquence* 01:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree completely with Eloquence. This article should be chopped back to a stub. Most of this is the beginnings of investigative journalism, and isn't a very good encyclopedia entry as it stands. No Original Research. --Jimbo Wales 11:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Trödel/1


text:
Violence at Cronulla Beach as 5000 people gather

December 12, 2005

Cronulla Beach in Sydney, New South Wales was the scene of racist mob-violence yesterday. In what has been described as disgusting, un-Australian and shameful behaviour, participants in a 5000-strong mob assaulted people suspected of being of Lebanese origin. The angry, alcohol-fuelled crowd also turned on anyone who tried to help the victims, including police, security guards and ambulance officers.

Following an attack on two lifeguards earlier in the week, allegedly by men of Lebanese descent, a protest had been organised via text messages and a small number of usenet postings.

Sutherland Shire Mayor Kevin Schreiber says inflammatory text messages calling for revenge attacks fueled the violence. Mr Schreiber said the heavily-circulated messages ensured troublemakers went to the southern Sydney beach looking for a fight. Police had patrolled the area all weekend after text messages began circulating among the community calling for vigilante responses to unwelcome visitors on the beach.

"The sending out of that text message was foolish and irresponsible and ensured that people from all over Sydney came to Cronulla looking to cause trouble and this was further fueled by alcohol," said Mr Schreiber.

Sydney's popular talk-back radio station 2GB also promoted Sunday's event. Breakfast announcer Alan Jones has been accused of "fanning the flames." Callers who recommended vigilante action were not discouraged to take the law into their own hands. Mr Jones, notorious for inflammatory comments, repeated the text message for Cronulla residents to defend their territory several times.

As the crowd marched along the beach and foreshore area, waving Australian flags, the crowd chanted racist slogans, with many wearing clothes bearing racist sentiment.

Middle Eastern men were openly targeted and assaulted. A young Muslim woman wearing a veil was chased into a kiosk on Cronulla beach. Police tried to move her away from the chanting crowd but were unable to reach the security of the command post. While the woman and police officers hid in the kiosk, a crowd surrounded the kiosk and shouted "Kill the Lebs", while others climbed on top of the kiosk.

As police horses and special operations officers formed a line and pushed the crowd away, they were bombarded with beer bottles. After half an hour, an ambulance arrived at the kiosk and people were loaded into it. The ambulance, transporting six injured youths, escorted by police and police horses, was also bombarded with beer bottles. One struck an ambulance officer on the head. His colleague suffered lacerations to the arm.

Arrests
A total of 25 people, including two ambulance officers, were injured and about 40 cars were vandalised at Maroubra as the unrest spread to other beachside communities. Police said 16 people had been arrested and charged with 41 offences. Locals said today they were in shock and many refused to be named, too scared of retribution for their comments.

Those charged were from Mortdale, Cronulla, Bondi Junction, Kareela, Granville, Lugarno, Greenacre, Mascot, Northmead, Jannali, Sutherland, and Riverwood. Offences included malicious damage, resist police, hinder police, assault police, resist arrest, possess prohibited drug, offensive manner, threaten violence, affray, possess knife in a public place, and driving in a manner dangerous. All of those charged were men between 17 and 40 years of age.

Government response
A Police strike force had been established to track down those responsible, NSW Premier Morris Iemma said today. Mr Iemma said video and photo evidence would be used to catch the offenders following incidents which he said showed "ugly face of racism in Australia".

He said the Government would examine what extra police powers would be needed to combat further outbreaks of violence. A meeting of community leaders would be convened to discuss the problem.

"Let's be very clear, the police will be unrelenting in their fight against these thugs and hooligans," the Premier said. A series of apparent revenge attacks – including two stabbings – occurred overnight following the unrest at Cronulla.

Prime Minister John Howard, at a separate press conference, condemned the violence. He said attacking anyone on the basis of their race or ethnicity was unacceptable and should be repudiated. He has refused to call Australians "racist". He himself created racism-related controversy when in 1988 he claimed that the rate of Asian immigration into Australia was too high.

Response from Islamic leaders
Kuranda Seyit, the director of Forum on Australia's Islamic Relations (FAIR), an Islamic think-tank, was disgusted by the weekends violence. "The Cronulla police must send a loud and clear message to others who are potentially considering vigilante action against fellow Australians," Mr Seyit said. He also condemned the previous violence that was allegedly committed by Lebanese men, but said that this does not justify yesterdays violence. "I realise that the initial behaviour by the thugs who beat the lifeguard was unacceptable but to take it out any anyone who the mob think are not one of them, is not the solution," Mr Seyit said.

He suggested that a number of people in Sutherland Shire were racist, and this contributed to the violence. "Obviously the underlying racism and intolerance in the shire is now bubbling to the surface."

Participation of "Neo-Nazis"
NSW Deputy Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione says police believed neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups were among the crowd. "That in fact is something that we're following up," he told the Nine network.

Skinheads wearing boots, braces and neo-Nazi emblems were among the protestors. Three far-right organisations: "Australia First Party", "Patriotic Youth League (PYL) and the Newcastle-based "Blood and Honour" - all handed out pamphlets. PYL describes itself as a "radical nationalist" group with links to the German-based skinhead group Volksfront, British Nationalist Party and the New Zealand National Front.

Australia First's Dr Jim Saleam, who was jailed for 3 1/2 years in 1991 for possessing a firearm and organising a shotgun attack on the home of the African National Congress's Australian representative, said: "I wouldn't condone it, but I wouldn't condemn it," Dr Saleam said his members had recruited up to 120 people for the rally but denied they were involved in violence.

Anti-race hate campaigner Matt Henderson-Hau, who runs the Fightdemback.org website, claims only one skinhead at the rally came from within the Sutherland Shire. "The rest came from the Central Coast, Newcastle and other parts of Sydney," he said. Mr Henderson-Hau said neo-Nazis had manipulated the crowd at Cronulla. "If you remove the Nazis from the equation, you will go a long way to dousing the flames and hopefully some cool heads will emerge on both sides," he said.

White Nationalist website, Stormfront Downunder, yesterday featured messages from people in the US, Britain and Canada supporting the Cronulla attacks.

Reaction from Sydney bloggers
Most bloggers were in agreement that anyone committing acts of violence should be arrested and punished, regardless of race, place of residence, or justification for their actions. Some are purely critical, whereas others are pointing to previous acts by Lebanese youths to explain the violence.

"Round ‘em up—all of them, from both sides—charge ‘em, convict ‘em, jail ‘em," Tim Blair said.

"Are we living in Tsarist Russia where peasants with pitchforks chase Jews down the street?" said Jason Soon of catallaxy. He made a distinction between these riots and previous riots, such as Maquarie Fields. "The denizens of Cronulla do not even have the excuse of poverty and deprivation for their actions. The infamy of disgrace will be heavier on them than on the people of Macquarie Fields."

One blogger said that he did not support Sunday’s violence, but argued that it was understandable after what he described as years of violence and intimidation by Lebanese youths.

"This episode is an absolute disgrace. I, however, absolutely refuse to condemn the people who took that action yesterday, especially given the pattern of wilful inaction from the authorities over the last two years. Far from demonstrating intolerance (arguably, quite the opposite has been demonstrated here, given the facts), put quite simply, everybody has a limit," said James Ozark of "A Western Heart".

Another blogger, who goes by the name "AnonymousLefty", issued a challenge to right-wing bloggers and mainstream pundits, asking them to explain how recent events should have been handled. "What precisely should we be doing differently in order to prevent flare-ups like Cronulla? (If Andrew Bolt and Piers Ackerman are going to devote their next columns to Cronulla - and I'd bet you the shiny biro on my desk that they will - perhaps they'd consider, instead of simply attacking 'multiculturalism' as a vague concept, actually suggesting what they'd do differently.)"

Splat Guy criticised the use of the national flag and anthem during the riot. "... the ugliest thing of all was the use of symbols of the unity of Australians - all Australians, not just Anglos - like the flag, national anthem, and sports cries as a sort of racial identifier. Really unsavoury, really unacceptable, really unaustralian."

Historical background: The White Australian Policy
Racism in post-invasion Australia dates back to the White Australia policy, which started as government policy in the 1880s, became a national law with the creation of Australia as a state in 1901, effectively was stopped in 1973 under the prime ministership of Whitlam, and was completed by further reform in immigration law under Fraser in 1978. For more depth, see:
 * White Australia policy

Blogs

Rassistische Ausschreitungen in Australien Disturbios raciales estremecen a la ciudad de Sydney Raskravaller chockerar Sydney