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Wikinews Shorts: November 13, 2008

Study shows that carrying excess fat around waist increases risk of early death
A new study has found that people storing extra fat around their waist have a strongly increased chance of early death, even if their overall weight is average. The study, published in the New England Journal of Medicine today, found that for each addition 5 cm on the waist, the chance of early death is increased by between 13% and 17%.

In the study, 360,000 people from across nine countries in Europe were surveyed.

One of the study's authors, Professor Elio Riboli of Imperial College London, commented on the findings. "We were surprised to see the waist size having such a powerful effect on people's health and premature death," he stated.

Sources

EU abolishes rules banning oddly-shaped fruit
The European Commission, the executive branch of the European Union, has today lifted its ban on unusually shaped fruits and vegetables, in what the EU's agriculture commissioner has called "a new dawn for the curvy cucumber and the knobbly carrot".

The regulation has previously been criticized as an example of the EU's bureaucracy by critics of the organisation.

The products affected by the deregulation are apricots, artichokes, asparagus, aubergines, avocadoes, beans, Brussels sprouts, carrots, cauliflowers, cherries, courgettes, cucumbers, cultivated mushrooms, garlic, hazelnuts in shell, headed cabbage, leeks, melons, onions, peas, plums, ribbed celery, spinach, walnuts in shell, water melons and witloof/chicory.

Sources

Vase bought for £1 sells for £32,450
A vase purchased at a car boot sale for £1 has sold for £32,450, following advice from experts on the BBC's Antiques Roadshow television program. The vase was sold in an auction at Christie’s.

The vase was found to be a 1929 work made by the French designer Rene Lalique.

Sources

Blackwater may pay financial penalties for improper arms shipments
Recent anonymous press briefings by US State Department officials indicated that its arms control division may punish Blackwater Worldwide for improper paperwork.

The Directorate of Defense Trade Controls has the power to fine or agree voluntary penalties with exporters of certain weapons, who do not follow correct procedures. Blackwater Worldwide, a private military company, exported automatic weapons to Iraq that became the subject of a federal investigation first disclosed in 2007. Concern was expressed by the unnamed officials that paperwork errors may make the weapons untraceable, and that some reached Iraq's black market.

Sources

title: Wikinews Shorts: November 13, 2008


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Iranian diplomat abducted in Pakistan

November 13, 2008

Iranian diplomat Heshmatollah Atharzadeh has been kidnapped by armed men in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar on Thursday morning, police have said. The diplomat's car was ambushed in the tribal region bordering Afghanistan.

Atharzadeh was heading from home to office with his guard when the car was ambushed in Hayatabad, a neighbourhood near the Khyber Agency region bordering Afghanistan. The guard was killed in the attack.

The Iranian consulate in Peshawar confirmed that the commercial attaché had been kidnapped. Iran's ambassador to Islamabad, Mashallah Shakeri, said the embassy is taking serious and appropriate measures to identify the kidnappers and release the diplomat. Shakeri held the Pakistani government responsible for the safety of foreign diplomats in the country, calling on Islamabad to work in full co-operation with the Iranians and help release the attaché.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Iranian diplomat abducted in Pakistan


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User talk:Xavexgoem

w:User:Xavexgoem

With few exceptions, nearly all of my work will be copy-editing. If any of my ce's change the meaning, please inform me on ways I can fix this. Thank you.

(Also, I'm terribly new, so I'm liable to screw something up that a normal editor would never think about doing ;-)

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Finally, you've moved into the wiki from IRC. -- Danger^Mouse (talk) 08:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
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"copy-edit"
Just wanted to say that the restructuring you did to the article I recently started really makes a lot more sense, and is a big improvement. Thanks. Jade Knight (talk) 13:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

meh
hi there, kindly create new articles :D would love to have you contribute to wikinews your pal -- Danger^Mouse (talk) 14:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

thanks pal muaahs -- Danger^Mouse (talk) 14:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Micheal Jackson
I have taken the liberty of Micheal Jackson's speculation, help required in Michael Jackson speculated to have converted to Islam with Thanks Azamishaque (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Redirects
The reason the redirect you created (then got deleted) didn't work is because you didn't put the two square brackets around the link.

Fox example  will work, while   will not

Thanks,

Anonymous101talk 16:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ...I knew that... ;-) Xavexgoem (talk) 17:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Editor
I have promoted you to the Editor class, as I feel you can be trusted to mark revisions of articles as sighted (review). Take a moment to read: If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask for help on my talk page, and thank you for contributing to Wikinews ! --PatrickFlaherty (talk) 11:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Flagged revisions
 * Reviewing articles
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 * Flagged Revisions extension information, on MediaWiki

Review
Hi. When publishing an article you need to place the Peer reviewed template on the talk page of the article that you are reviewing. Could you please place this template on the article you recently published? Thanks:). Gopher65talk 01:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you:). That was fast. Gopher65talk 01:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Pork plant article
Thank you for your comments on the article. I applied your suggestions now. U.S. pork plant in Mexico near confirmed case of swine fluRevoluc (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

VOA articles
Please note the template at the bottom of the article you "un-reviewed". VOA material is in the public domain and we are perfectly at liberty to use it. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

privs
'''Note! Your privileges on English Wikinews have been reduced.'''
 * Under the Privilege expiry policy (enacted October 13, 2012) the rights held by your user account have been reduced due to inactivity, or lack of privilege use.

 * Point 4 of the Privilege expiry policy provides for fast-tracking reacquisition of privileges. We all understand that real-life commitments can severely curtail the level of commitment you can give to Wikinews; the privilege reduction is in no way intended as a reflection on your past work, or to imply you are unwelcome. The aim in curtailing privileges is to address security risks, and concern that a long period of inactivity means you may not be up-to-date with current policy and practices.

--Pi zero (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

title: User talk:Xavexgoem


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Talk:Iranian diplomat abducted in Pakistan

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Category:Federally Administered Tribal Areas, Category:North-West Frontier Province and Category:Peshawar. Ali Rana (talk) 11:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ – Juliancolton  | Talk 00:14, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


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Category:Disputed image templates

Templates for image pages that are proposed for deletion.

title: Category:Disputed image templates


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Jailed former Taiwanese President on hunger strike

November 13, 2008 Following detention stemming from corruption allegations, former Taiwanese President is reportedly on hunger strike. His lawyer, Cheng Wen-lung, stated that Chen has not eaten since since his admission to Taipei's Tucheng jail on Wednesday. He went on to tell reporters the hunger strike is to continue, "to protest the death of justice and the regression of democracy."

Chen, from the, was President for two four-year terms, from March 2000 until March 2008. In 2006 Chen's wife,, was indicted on charges of embezzlement, forgery, and perjury over money sent to overseas bank accounts. Chen claimed these were surplus funds from election campaigns and he had no knowledge of his wife transferring the money to the Cayman Islands.

Chen was succeeded as President by of the, commonly referred to as the Chinese Nationalist Party.

The former President may face up to four months confinement, which prosecutors argue is necessary to prevent him from colluding with his alleged co-conspirators. Nine other people are being held in relation to the same corruption allegations.

As yet, no formal charges have actually been laid against Chen. DPP politicians and other observers have criticised his detention and stated that it was politically-motivated in order to smear the DPP, as was the decision to make him wear handcuffs in public. Recently other high-profile members of the DPP have been detained without charge, whilst members also under investigation for alleged corruption have reportedly not been jailed or their cases have been put on hold.

Meanwhile, Director Steve Young, the de-facto ambassador of the United States to Taiwan, asked for a "transparent, fair, and impartial" resolution to the case.

The matter was also raised in the Dutch parliament. MPs from ruling and opposition parties, asked the foreign minister,, if he was aware that "Chen and a number of politicians of the DPP [had] been arrested on suspicion of abuse of power while in power."

The MPs asked that Parliament be briefed on the situation and whether the foreign minister would press the Taiwanese government to apply basic principles of the rule of law in cases such as Chen's.


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Comments:Protesters demonstrate in front of Latter-day Saint temple in L.A.

First comment from anon following this news publication but prior to the subsequent slight change to the news title (copy-paste action)
 The actions of the GLTG community in the wake of the passage of Prop 8 is akin to fascist behavior in the 1930s & 40s.

While I cherish the freedom to assemble and protest, these sad souls do not like others to exercise their right vote. A clear majority of people want to keep marriage between one man and one woman. The propaganda job by these amoral fascists is akin to what you saw in Nazi Germany (targeting of a small religious element, fear mongering, and violence).

I can't help but think of the Mormon Church's prophetic Proclamation to the Family issued over a decade ago, "...we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

In addition to divorce and abuse, homosexual marriage will lead to the disintegration of the family and our society. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.7.239.123 (talk • contribs) 07:50, Nov 13, 2008

 * Bigotry will lead to the disintegration of the family and our society. 12.202.230.168 13:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, how do you classify the harassment of protesters and the vandalism of property? Tolerance?  Jade Knight (talk) 13:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, people get desperate. Everyone points out the violence used by protesters as if it were something related exclusively to their homosexuality when in any other type of protest there is one, or more, acts of violence. Just as there are protest due to racism issues, religion, women rights, etc...By saying this I don't mean that its OK to act violently because thats obviously not the point, but its NOT ok to relate it to their homosexuality.—Meggogarbage (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You have a point. But these actions are unacceptable, regardless of their reason—committing violence and vandalism against any minority is a violation of human rights.  Jade Knight (talk) 08:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

As a christian
I support Gay Marriage/Civil Unions, it's the same thing to me. But lately Gay activist have been making me regret supporting them. I watch a video of group of activist beat a old women and stomp on her cross and now defacing churches. But I hope not all of them are the same, like the ones the media is showing to us. --66.229.21.217 11:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * When I read about that event, I read something a bit different from what you're saying; for instance, the old lady didn't get beat up although her homemade styrofoam cross was defaced. I don't think these actions are justified, and they're certainly not the behavior of most activists; however, a lot of people are very very justifiably angry, and sadly, a small few of those people don't know how to funnel that anger properly.  You should note that this happens in every movement.  Continuing to cite these actions is unfair to the vast majority of us who are protesting appropriately.  If your rights were being taken away, how would you respond?

 * By the way, I'm proud to call myself Christian as well. I've on occasion felt insulted inside the gay community for my beliefs, but thankfully, it's not the norm there either.  I'd love to see this video so I can judge for myself,do you have a link? Cary Bass (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I hadn't gotten the impression that she was "beaten up", though I did hear that her cross was destroyed and that she was "attacked", though as there was a camera trained on her, I would be surprised if much physical violence had been done her. On the other hand, it would seem that the Hispanic women who tried to remove negative signage at the L.A. temple were beaten.  Violence and vandalism in such matters, is never acceptable—regardless of what "side" one is on.  When people can have peaceful, lawful protests, it is a good thing.  And being able to disagree with someone without hurling insults at them is an important part of peaceful democracy.  Jade Knight (talk) 19:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Beaten"? Do you have a source for that information?  I've seen facts like these propagate when they weren't true, just because people keep forwarding them around.  bastique (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That source is in this article—as reported by a member of the L.A.P.D. His exact words were "As these individuals – who according to a temple spokesperson were not church members – removed the hate-filled signs, the mob exploded and began beating the individuals to the ground."  Jade Knight (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I love Wikileaks
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Mormon-LDS_orders_for_29_June_2008_on_same-sex_constitution_ban

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/LDS_church_Proposition_8_broadcast_transcript%2C_8_Oct_2008

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/LDS_Church_Proposition_8_anti-gay_campaign_notes

Anybody remember those? --Smackdat (talk) 13:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Everyone knows that the Mormon church was against gay marriage all along. It's no secret. In Utah, members of the church were asked to participate in voter education calling campaigns and other such things prior to the election. The Mormon church is not hiding its position, in fact, the church is very strong in its opposition to gay marriage. Those articles on wikileaks don't prove anything that isn't already widely known. In fact, anyone could have been at the broadcast on proposition 8, and anyone can ask any Mormon church leader where the church stands on the issue and they will be told.

It's time to move on. A majority of the voting population in California and other states have spoken. That's democracy and it's free speech. Members of many churches and those unaffiliated with any church donated money in behalf of what they believed in. The Mormon's aren't singular in their efforts.

Slandering Mormon's because of what they believe is as ignorant as slandering homosexuals because of what they believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.39.161 (talk) 04:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

A Sad Sight
The person who brought up the fascists and any others who would do so: You are exploiting the horrors of the Holocaust for a stupid culture warring point. Clearly you have nothing to say, so you will bring up past atrocities to try and make your point for you. The constant stream of ignorant comments made by people who do not know homosexuals, believe homosexuality is a choice, and believe homosexuality is an affront to their deity are well past the point of understanding. Those people, who claim to be compassionate, have a strange and ugly hole in their hearts when it comes to the rights of gays. Let us not forget the lessons we have learned from people who would use images of fear and death to convince. Ignore this anonymous person. It will suit them well.

To say that someone does not deserve the same rights as you because they are different or to provide them a separate set of rights that you believe is equal is contrary to the spirit of democracy. Supreme Court judges past and future, state and federal, side with my point of view. To create a separate "but equal" institution because your old book tells you to have the willies about gay men (which, mind you, was only a cultural more to protect the population of my desert ancestor Jews) is cruel. Whether or not you individually realize this, please take into account a summary of what your support of bans is: An attempt by large organized groups of people to suppress the rights of others because they disagree with that group. The counterargument is that people in favor of bans are the majority; those opposed to bans are a minority. The majority prevails. The problem with that line of thinking is that the minority is not granted rights in this case, but rather they are stripped away.

From majority rule to minority rights to the spirit of the law to separate but equal institutions to the size of government these bans are venom; pure poison seeps through the heart of any campaign to separate individuals from their liberty. If we are infected by this virulence in our home country, what great leaps of humankind might we expect? None as long as argumentum ad Nazium is the preferred strategy of Americans to cope with things beyond them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pointofinformation (talk • contribs) 08:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree completely that having a minority tyrannize a majority is a very bad thing, (worse, perhaps, even, than the persecution of a minority, which is also very bad). I also agree that the law should be equal for all.  Currently, in the United States, the law is equal for all:  Any adult may marry any one other adult of the opposite gender with consent.  No adult may marry a child, or more than one adult, or a pet, or a person of the same gender.  This law applies to all people, regardless of their race, creed, or sexual orientation: everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation, has the right to marry a member of the opposite gender.  Now, there's no question that there's some disagreement as to what the fundament definition of a "marriage" should be, and there's certainly some debate over whether "alternate" marriages (such as polygamous, homosexual, and even, in some groups, pedaphilic and bestial ones) should be considered valid "marriages" in the same sense as those currently allowed by law—this is good (tolerance requires disagreement, after all), and I hope that calm discourse and democracy will prevail in finding a solution in this matter.  King never achieved what he did by promoting violence or vandalism.
 * I also hope that certain minorities (be they sexual minorities or religious minorities) will not be singled out for vandalism and violence—this is undemocratic, and the Holocaust did start with scapegoating in much the same vein. Let us all pray we never get to that point in this great country.
 * There is only one thing which you have said which I take particular issue with, and that is your assumption that sexual orientation is not a choice; I know several gays who believe they have chosen their orientation, and Michael Glatze (formerly an activist for homosexuality) is quite outspoken in asserting that it is a choice. Perhaps for some homosexuals it is not a choice?  But for others, it clearly is.  Regardless, however, may we reach out to eachother in peace, and avoid such oppressive violence and vandalism as has been committed against almost every minority in the history of time.  Jade Knight (talk) 08:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Some of this is ridiculous. Sexual orientation cannot be a choice unless you are attracted to both sexes and make a decision to stick with one. Physical attraction is something hard-wired into the human brain; I'm heterosexual, I find naked or scantily clad women physically arousing, the same cannot be said for men. I can 'admire' a handsome man, but in no way do I find him sexually attractive.
 * Implying that there are some to a majority of homosexuals who act so as a "lifestyle choice" is to ignore history, and deny evidence that the behaviour is also present in the animal kingdom. Do you honestly think Oscar Wilde would have engaged in homosexual behaviour with the risk of being jailed for it? If it's a lifestyle choice you could legislate it out of existence, just like Iran claims to have done. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * People take drugs which carry a risk of being jailed, when it is clear they have a choice. People murder which carries a risk of being jailed, when it is clear they have a choice.  People will even abuse children which carries a risk of being jailed, when it is clear they have a choice.  Do you mean to suggest that the risk of being jailed has ever been an effective deterrent for much of anything?  What do you think of the dozens of individuals recently executed in Iran for converting to Christianity?  They knew that conversion from Islam in that country carried the death penalty.  Do you think they had "no choice" in their conversion, as the death penalty was clearly an adequate deterrent to stop anyone with choice?
 * I find it odd that you would argue that there are no homosexuals who choose to be homosexuals; I know a few who say as much, myself, and Glatze is a fairly obvious example of a well-known homosexual who considers it a choice. I can't speak for all homosexuals, but it seems clear that at least some of them have a choice in the matter.  This is further supported by the fact that there is a significantly larger number (according to most studies) of bisexuals than homosexuals.  I've even known bisexuals who would go in "phases" of preferring one gender over the other.  Jade Knight (talk) 12:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on dodging the point. --Brian McNeil / talk 13:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Speak for yourself. I addressed each of your arguments.  Perhaps you'd like to consider addressing even one of mine?  I know it's so much easier to simply ignore my questions.  Jade Knight (talk) 06:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And, to reiterate, with a slight alteration, what I said earlier: Regardless of all this, may we reach out to eachother in peace, and avoid and condemn such oppressive violence and vandalism as has been committed against almost every minority throughout the history of time.  Jade Knight (talk) 06:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

To those involved in this seemingly endless struggle regardless of your sexuality I say STAND YOUR GROUND. The old road is now closing and everyone knows it. I know that freedom and truth will prevail. I encourage you to retaliate with appropriate measures to religious oppression. It is and has always been immoral. It is a system of guidance for the animal of whom cannot control themselves, and a source of solace for those who require it. Remember your your divinity, We Are One! Listen for your your own heartsong. WE ARE HERE and WE ARE WITH YOU. LET LOVE PREVAIL Raven —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.211.95.227 (talk) 16:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

 * To the above anon comment & our readers: Although your comment conveys your resentment and incomprehension toward Religion, it, nevertheless, touches a truly deeper aspect of Religion, though in a desinformed manner, that few people seem to be aware of: the Sacred teachings of Spirituality within the great Religions, from East to West, ask of us such a unique thing: to overcome [transmute] the limitations of our inferior passional nature, that is, "the animal" lower nature we all carry, for as long as the man entertains the desires (RCC, 1909), that is, stays a slave of his passions and desires, such individual will not be able to advance further, liberate himself, into higher spheres of existence (the access to the Higher Life that Religion keeps as the promise and assures to be our goal); eventually this kind of individual may become so attached to matter that hinders his own evolution. Central to this concept, and to the history of mankind herself, has always been the sexual act -- the Creative act [of new physical bodies and on a higher level, mental and emotional accomplishments in literature, poetry, art, music, science, etc.] which is found to be constructive vs. the abuse of the sexual function, uncontrolled to appease the urges of the inferior passional nature (desires), which is found to be destructive: in this regard homosexuality is found to be on the same grounds as heterosexuality in that both commit The Sin (a sin is considered to be an action contrary to the Spiritual laws), though heterosexuality allows the contructive Creative act to be performed [if we are not allowed to incarnate in a physical body, we do not have the experiences essential to our growth] and homosexuality has been always condemn, throughout the most part of civilizational history, for being both sterile and contrary to the Spiritual unfoldment of man, as it seeks merely gratification of the senses, that is, the misuse of the holy Creative force [of God] in man, referred to in numerous places in the Bible (concerning the Judeo-Christian tradition). Through this religious view, we are expected to progressively change our current destructive behaviour as we acquire intellect and will; not the mere suppression of sexual attraction which is not a virtue in itself, but to redirect the creative force into higher channels, transmutation of the sexual force toward Regeneration (a.k.a. Spiritual rebirth or Be born again which means our Salvation-Liberation). This current [great] transgressional behaviour is the core weakness that keeps us all confined to limited[physical] human bodies (many times afflicted by illness and pain), bodies which carry death[physical] as penalty; In the religion of the Christ this consequence has been also mentioned by Paul of Tarsus who explained to us that: The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. (1Corinthians 15:55-56). Change is coming to the whole wide world; can we embrace it? Yes, [(I) believe] We can. Yours in service. --Vilalva (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to chime in and say that Vilalva's comment is intended to be a spiritual argument, and not a logical one. If you'd like to respond to it directly, please treat it as a spiritual, and not a logical, argument (to avoid useless bickering).  My own arguments you're welcome to treat as logical, but please don't treat them as spiritual.  Jade Knight (talk) 06:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Re: Indeed I feel honored, dear Jade Knight, that you have classified my previous comment as a "spiritual argument"; thank you indeed. About being "not a logical one", that is, a comment devoided of logic, (I) wouldn't be so sure; but being myself a little servant, and although able to some extent, it is far beyond my scope to provide here an account of the Logic that builds and mantains the worlds, that is, of such a Wisdom currently unknow to the wise of the [physical]world, for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. To me, sufficient it is that each reader may be able to wisely give his own inner impartial judgement to the content of those above "spirtitual argument[ed]" lines that I have put forth. --Vilalva (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Vilalva, you may tell gays that unless they change you believe that they will (you can fill this gap far better than I), but you must respect they may not share these beliefs and should not force them not to do what they are doing. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 07:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear friend, as evolution brings us closer to individuality and freedom, it turns out to be more difficult for our humanity to make safe choices. Abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc... are some of the issues we have to face at every step of our journey in the physical body, issues that have a long history that goes deep in our even evolution. Only a clear understanding of these phenomenons and their real causes will allow us to provide the necessary aid humanity needs in order to definitively overcame these deplorable practices. Compassion, understand and love for their, and our, souls appears to be the key.
 * As a great western Mystic once taught (1909 poem in public domain, U.S.):
 * No man loves God who hates his kind,
 * Who tramples on his brother's heart and soul;
 * Who seeks to shackle, cloud, or fog the mind
 * By fears of hell has not perceived our goal.
 * There's but one thing the world has need to know.
 * There's but one balm for all our human woe:
 * There's but one way that leads to heaven above--
 * That way is human sympathy and love.
 * Yours in service, --Vilalva (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yours in service, --Vilalva (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yours in service, --Vilalva (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Get out of the dark ages. It's normal for some people to be homosexual and they should be accorded the same rights as everyone else. Tyranny of the majority be damned! --Brian McNeil / talk 17:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Re: In fact, from a Spiritual standpoint the last four hundred years have been the darkest ages caused by the ultra-materialism which has been rampant in the Western World and originated in the arrogance of intellectual pride, which has increased physical knowledge immensely and simultaneously has done such terrible damage to almost every aspect of life on this planet (Fontana, 2003), but above all it has almost extinguished the Light of the Spirit, that is, has denied the Knowledge of man himself, of our true and higher nature: each one of us a Spirit attending the school of life for the purpose of unfolding all the powers of God. Again, Change is coming. Finally, and to whom it may concern, the contents (the spirit) within these comments of mine (the form) come not from the majority but from a true minority: they have been called the little children of God. Peace. --Vilalva (talk) 20:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Religion is like an asshole, everyone has one. Argue religion all you want, but I refuse to believe that every "religion" (a set of beliefs) is correct. And I refuse to believe that any religion's "god(s)" would despise a homosexual. From the Christian standpoint: God created us in his image. If that being the case...then what are homosexuals? Also the Bible never once mentions homosexuality directly, nor does it ever mention it as a sin. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 17:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody chooses to be gay. They choose to accept their sexuality or deny it.  They choose to be a Mormon, or a Catholic, or a member of the Church of Christ or an atheist.  Anyone who tells you he or she chose to be gay is a liar, and the argument that one chooses it is fraudulent.  There's no such thing as a "gay lifestyle," which is only a euphamism used to bolster arguments that being gay is a choice.  My lifestyle involves going to work, coming home, watching TV, walking my dog, reading books, sleeping, some sex with someone I love maybe, but not every day (getting old).  Maybe driving up the coast to watch the sunset, or walking in the park.  That's my lifestyle.  If my being gay makes it a gay lifestyle, then I wonder about all those gay heterosexuals out there who share the same lifestyle.
 * Anyone who donated to a campaign to take away my rights deserves to be protested. Not vandalized or threatened, but you seem to be forgetting there's freaks on both sides who vandalize, threaten.  Some of the Yes on 8 campaigners attempted to extort money from businesses who donated to No on 8, and I have a friend who had rocks thrown at his windows because of his No on 8 sign.  Let's not forget nobody has ever been murdered for being heterosexual, but to gay people, it happens several times a year across the US, and more often in some other countries.  It's my rights they're trampling on, and I will do whatever I can, be as loud as I can, to make them understand that.  52% of people voted to take away my rights in California on November 4, something they shouldn't have had the legal power to do.  Because of them, a movement has been reignited, and we will not quiet down until justice has prevailed. bastique 18:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You say that the gays who say they have a choice are liars. Others say you are a liar for asserting your own POV.  It seems that you, like those you condemn, are not willing to consider that there may be more than one way of viewing things.  Would it not be less hypocritical to say that you do not personally know whether it is a choice for others?  Jade Knight (talk) 16:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Asserting my own POV?" Knowing the difference between nature and "choice" is not a POV.  "Others will say you are a liar," Others have no basis to judge me.  This is not a difference between two sides, this is the overwhelming majority of gay people and a few select individuals who religious zealots parade around to justify bigotry.  There are not two sides here.  Bastique (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What expertise do you have to determine absolute reality? Glatze was a prominent homosexual who had been a homosexual all his life:  He now states that his homosexuality was a choice.  I've known several other individuals personally who are similar, and this is particularly true of the bisexuals I know. The fact is that most psychologists argue (suprise) that homosexuality is psychological, while most geneticists argue (surprise) that homosexuality is genetic.  You are currently judging others, Bastique.  You are asserting your own POV, and if you refuse to acknowledge the POV's of others, you will come across as rigid and hypocritical.  There is much to be gained through the middle path of compromise and mutual understanding.  Jade Knight (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, Bastique, what "rights" did you lose? It was my understanding that Civil Unions in California are afforded the same "rights" (or privileges) as marriages.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  Jade Knight (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that's a fallacy. A Domestic Partnership in California is not the same as a marriage, nor does it convey the same number of rights that a marriage has.  There's very little similar.  California does not have Civil Unions.  But the right to Marry is the right to Marry.  My Lutheran church performs marriages between same-sex couples, as do well over 300 churches in California (or happily did, before the "vote").  So Proposition 8 took away rights.  This is why so many people are up in arms.  Bastique (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing this up for me—I don't live in California and don't know California law well at all. I had heard that Civil Unions were legal in California, and that they conveyed the same rights as marriage.  Perhaps someone wrote "CA" instead of "California", and had meant Canada, not California, and I had misinterpreted.  I don't know.  At any rate, if California does not have Civil Unions, then yes, several priveleges would have been lost with proposition 8, for a small portion of the population.  Frankly, I wouldn't be opposed to removing government oversight of marriage entirely, thought that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.  Jade Knight (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a bad analogy, Dragonfire, if you meant it to be disparaging: Everyone needs an asshole.  Try living life without one.  What you choose to believe or not believe is your decision.  Realize, however, that others may choose to believe differently.  And your claims about the Bible and homosexuality are naïve, at best: Leviticus 18 and Romans 1 are, while not absolutely undisputed (but nothing in the Bible is), fairly clear on the matter.  Jade Knight (talk) 16:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So you are saying that homosexuality is mentioned in the bible, directly? You are saying that it says it is a sin? As you said above, and proved my own point, no it doesn't. Everyone believes in something. More than 2 people believing can easily be considered a religion. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Most scholars agree that the Bible does "directly" discuss the act of sexual desires or relations between two people of the same gender, yes. If the Bible does discuss these acts (in the instances aforementioned), it is quite clear that the Bible also condemns them.  To argue otherwise is either naïve or intentionally misleading.  Yes, a few Biblical scholars argue that the passages in question do not concern homosexual relations, and a few more argue that they are somehow limited in scope and so do not apply to modern Christians.  The former view, in particular, is generally discredited, and the latter view is uncommon.  But surely you already knew this.  Jade Knight (talk) 16:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No one scholar was alive 2,000 years ago. Not one of them can account for the language spoken back then, dialects and such. Those stories you refer to are interpertations. Again not once does it mention homosexuality and not to mention the fact that it wasn't written until ovr 100 years after Christ, over a period of several more hundred years. And if you need a history lesson, the Greeks and Romans, who were around long before than Christ, married people of the same sex all the time and often had several wives and husbands. They had several gods...one might call their culture a religion. To argue that your beliefs are better than mine or anyone elses is breaking your own commandment...Who are you/we/anyone to judge what is right or wrong? DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 16:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Naïvity it is, then! You've ignored my previous points, and your "history lesson" is absurd: that you would even consider claiming such a thing shows a lack of familiarity with your subject-matter.  The Romans were fiercely monogamous (it is likely that Christianity is monogamous through Roman influence, not Jewish influence—the Jews permitted polygamy), and permitted marriage only between a man and a woman who shared connubium.  I could start providing academic sources, but there's little point if you don't have a background in the topic.  I'd highly recommend you check out Suzanne Dixon's The Roman Family to get an overview of Roman family and marriage norms and laws.  If you're interested in learning more about Roman marriages in particular, Smith's Dictionary has an extensive article on "Matrimonium" which may prove enlightening.  Jade Knight (talk) 16:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh then the orgy parties they had, and Caligula didn't exist? He wasn't married to both men and women? Christianity didn't even exist enough, if at all back then to have any influence on the Greeks. As with the Romans, they had several gods...I can start naming just a few if you like. I can also reccommend the movie Caligula, but it is probably a sin to do so. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 17:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What does sin have to do with anything? I'm talking about scholarship here, by professional historians.  Suzanne Dixon is a noted expert on Roman family History.  There is no sense in arguing if you're going to ignore scholarship and research wholesale and simply replace it with what you've heard or seen in film.  If you had even bothered to read his Wikipedia article, however, you'd have noticed that Caligula never married any men.  Jade Knight (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that was his horse he married. Or something like that. (Someone had to inject the inane man marries man/man marries beast comparison that always seems to happen in these conversations, might have well been me.)   Bastique (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm no expert on the historical Caligula, but I seriously doubt any purported marriage to a horse would have been accepted by other Romans—animals and slaves, under Roman law, could not have connubium. But, you do have a point—the fact of the matter is that marriage, as an institution, can be defined in many different ways.  There are a few who support marriage between humans and other species, though mostly (in the West) the debate revolves around homosexuality/polygamy and the status quo.  Jade Knight (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He also had about 4 dozen whore boys to jerk off in front of him and his friends whenever he pleased. The ancient Egyptians also had similar sex slaves. The Mayan had sex sacrifices, and so on and so on. All of those predate Christianity. Is what they did wrong? And you are talking of sins and do's and don'ts. The right to love someone is not something that is given to you by the church. And just because they say its wrong, does not make it so. So to say that Christianity is the only true religion is what is BS. if that were the case, then god was born at the same time as Jesus. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 19:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And what is your source for all of this? I've just clearly pointed out that your conceptions of acceptable sex and marriage in Rome were far from the truth, and I'm disinclined to think that your other assertions here about history have any more merit.  And you're getting highly sidetracked; we're not talking about the Christian concept of the relationship between Christ and God here, or the value of Christian theology (at least I'm not).  My arguments have nothing to do with religion, but are based on sound historical study.  Jade Knight (talk) 20:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If our goal is to get out of the Dark Ages, Brian, then why don't we do away with archaic establishments entirely? Land taxation and eminent domain are feudal institutions—highly backwards for a modern society, wouldn't you agree?  Institutionalized marriage has been largely non-existent for most of the world for most of humanity's past: in the West, at least, it was regulated by religions and governments to protect women from losing their chastity before a committed, child-rearing family relationship, and to ensure proper inheritance.  For couples who engage in sex before marriage and are unable to have children (for whatever reason), institutionalized marriage seems a terribly backwards and Medieval manner of handling things—aren't we more progessive than getting married these days?  Jade Knight (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you always resort to twisting the other party's argument and ad-hominem?
 * Those who believe in some daft sky God and try to impose that belief on civil society around them are the ones living in the dark ages.
 * You want to define marriage as an "institution", and in other comments try to argue that a civil union is the same because you have the same legal rights. Do you not see any discrimination here? Homosexuals are being offered second-class treatment, "go sit up the back of the bus" style.
 * I'll ignore your comments about property taxes and eminent domain, please try to stay on-topic. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Speak for yourself! I have not made a single ad-hominem attack, and your insinuation otherwise is dishonest.  I have also made no attempts to "twist" anything, though I do try to help people see what their logic, when carried through its natural course, leads.  I did not say that a civil union is the same as marriage.  I did ask if the rights a civil union gave were the same rights that a marriage gave.  Please read more carefully in the future.  I don't want to "define" marriage as an institution: Sociologically, marriage is an institution (as are civil unions).  My points about property taxes and eminent domain are on topic: you're telling someone to "get out of the Dark Ages": did you really mean this, or are you simply interested in applying a rhetorical double-standard to disparage those you disagree with?  Jade Knight (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You have disparaged Jason's arguments and insinuated he is not adequately educated. You twisted my mention of the dark ages to suit the argument you wished to make; in fact, you're doing it again with this very comment. Property taxes and eminent domain have nothing to do with the religious philosophy prevalent in the dark ages; both serve purposes of furthering a functional society. Dogmatic and outdated religious attitudes towards homosexuals are as much use as a square wheel. I believe you're defending the indefensible by arguing that anyone who is not in a heterosexual relationship should have less rights than someone who is. That is an attitude from the dark ages. Oh, and in case you don't get it, it is the right to say, "we're married". If you consider a civil union equal to that then Proposition 8 should have argued for the abolition of all marriage, not a redefinition of the term to fit the views of a bigoted and paranoid subset of humanity. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If I disparage an argument, then that is, by definition, not "ad-hominem", Brian. I have made no statements whatsoever concerning Jason's "education", though I have pointed out (quite accurately) that he is clearly unfamiliar with Roman family history.  Brian, the entire point of marriage in Roman and Medieval society, and especially with its integration as a religious and political institution, was "to serve purposes of furthering a functional society"!  Marriage (as an institution) was not simply some whimsical artistic thing—it was a functional, important institution; I believe I've partially listed some of the reasons for this already on this page.  If you'd like, I could go into more detail, and recommend a few academic books on the subject.  Who is to determine what is "outdated", Brian?  Historians?  Judges?  Democracy?  You (a dictatorship)?  Some people think eminent domain is outdated.  You do not.  You think a traditional definition of marriage is outdated.  More than half of California does not.  I have never once said that those who are not in heterosexual relationships should have less rights than those who are in them; on the contrary, I feel very strongly that they should all have the same rights.  BTW, to say "we're married" is a right only insofar as it is the right to free speech—and homosexuals in California can still say that all they like.  Nothing about proposition 8 changes that.  Your last sentence makes very little sense: what I consider and what proposition 8 argues have nothing whatsoever to do with eachother; I did not help draft proposition 8, I did not vote on proposition 8, and I was not at all involved in the campaigning efforts surrounding either side of it.  BTW, Proposition 8 did not radically "redefine" anything—Californians, by an overwhelming majority, decided in 2000 to limit marriage between a man and a woman.  Then, last year, a panel of 4 judges decided to "redefine" marriage to include homosexuals.  Proposition 8 was simply the people of California reasserting their right to define marriage as a people, instead of having 4 judges take that right from them.  Jade Knight (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I will say, however, that insinuating someone's viewpoint is wrong because it is religiously-based, instead of addressing that person's arguments directly, is ad-hominem (as would be the reverse). Jade Knight (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Insinuating that your beliefs are better or more accurate that anyone else's, yes. if you didn't think so, you wouldn't be so hell bent on forcing it down our throats. I believe what I want, it is MY right. I won't have a Church, religion, or government tell me what human sex I should like. I live in America and if people don't like that I am an GAY American, then they have several other countries which don't like homosexuals that you can choose to go to. But because I am gay, does not mean my rights, as an American, should be limited. Last time I checked, the federal constitution, IMO more powerful than the Bible in terms of beliefs, doesn't define marriage as between a man and woman. It would be like saying I cannot vote because I am gay...what is the difference? Setting the religious aspect of marriage aside, there is none. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 20:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You're insinuating that your beliefs are better or more accurate than anyone you care to disagree with; that is the nature of disagreement, if disagreement is intended to be a catalyst for change. I'm not interested in forcing "my beliefs" on others.  You know, DragonFire, people could just as easily say "If you want to get a gay marriage, then you have several other countries which like homosexuals that you can choose to go to."  That statement, like your own, ignores the reality of people living in this country.  Quite frankly, it's rude.  Realize that, as a gay person living in America, you currently have all of the same rights as non-gay people living in America.  I believe I've already pointed this out elsewhere on this page.  (I'm not interested in comparing the Constitution to the Bible, BTW—the two have little in common, frankly.)  It's nothing like saying you can't vote because you're gay, DragonFire: if that were the case, you would be disenfranchised.  Now, if the current law were that homosexuals could not marry, then yes, that would be somewhat akin.  But that's not the current law.  The current law allows homosexuals to marry legally the exact same ways that heterosexuals can marry legally.  It also places the same restrictions on them.  Neither, for example, can legally marry more than one person at the same time, even if they are in love with more than one person at the same time.  Jade Knight (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm just glad Prop 8 passed. Yevuard (talk) 06:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The Pursuer Of Happiness
Why is there a need for gay organizations for same-sex marriage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.208.64 (talk) 07:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


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User talk:Chicgeek

Welcome
DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 11:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chicgeek


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User talk:M4tth3wg

Welcome
DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 11:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:M4tth3wg


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Talk:Jailed former Taiwanese President on hunger strike

Misleading Title
Chen was Taiwan's President, not its Premier. Under the Taiwanese system of government, the two positions carry very different responsibilities. The title needs to be changed. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Title changes
Please do not change title for some minor reason, especially if you are not familar with WN:NC. Instead bring it up here for consideration of other editors. Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I didn't realise there was a problem with changing titles. Cueball (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Per Naming conventions, we use a downstyle convention. As long as you observe WN:NC there is no problem with changing titles. That being said, "former" vs. "ex-" seems so minor that it needn't be changed. --SVTCobra 19:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, it was only a slight improvement but I thought it didn't require discussion precisely because of that. I note your comment on downstyling. Thanks. Cueball (talk) 19:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The article is currently up as a front page lead. The title should have been changed in the lead template too. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Update
I have added more information relating to criticism of the detention, as well as removed the comment on why Ma won the election. It's rather speculative given Chen wasn't running (had hit his maximum number of terms), so I think it's better to focus on the current affairs. Cueball (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tidy-up. But why is this listed in the China category? This is just about Taiwan, right? Cueball (talk) 21:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As some of the sources list, the former president was anti-China and claims his persecution is due to the now pro-China government seeking to kowtow to China. I'm sure that was in this at one point. --Brian McNeil / talk 21:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He wasn't anti-China - China was anti-him. As things stand the news story doesn't refer to those allegations, so they should be added or the category tag removed. Cueball (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You removed
 * "In stark contrast to Chen's nationalist stance, the new premier Ma Ying-jeou favours closer ties with mainland China. This is stressed in the claims of political motivation for Chen's detention."

 * This was the justification for category China and is a key issue in the claims and counter-claims. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it is fair to say that pro-independance is anti-China. If you look at the issue from a black and white perspective, there are only two stances...pro-unification and pro-independance. The former is pro-China and latter is anti-China. There is very little room for gray in this matter. Thus, it is fair to say that Chen is anti-China. 70.89.229.25 16:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not anti-China? Certainly anti-Chinese policies:

--Brian McNeil / talk 09:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


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Talk:BBC Radio Bristol presenter fired over 'racist' phone call

Review
I worked on this a little: am I sufficiently independent to review it? InfantGorilla.

I did some work, too. But between the two of us, I think this has been plenty reviewed, so I will publish. Cheers, --SVTCobra 15:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


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Talk:Toxic wetlands may be cause of thousands of bird deaths in Western Australia

Last Update: Thursday, March 15, 2007. 11:37am (AEDT) Authorities believe lead poisoning to be the likely cause of the bird deaths around Esperance. (File photo) (REUTERS) Lead poisoning fears grow in Esperance with further bird deaths By David Weber for PM

Western Australia's Health Department is trying to allay fears that the people of the southern coastal town of Esperance may have been contaminated with lead.

The fears stem from the deaths of thousands of birds in and around the town in September 2006 - with more dead birds found last week.

The Department of Environment has found the cause may be lead poisoning.

Lead concentrate has been shipped out of Esperance Port for about 18 months, and even though lead dust has not been conclusively blamed for the bird deaths, shipments have been suspended.

People in the town are fearing for their children's health.

Now that it has found the likely cause of the deaths, the Department of Environment is testing for lead sources around Esperance.

Many of the dead birds found in recent weeks were around schools. But director of Environmental Health Jim Dodds says that does not mean the schools are the source.

He says it is hard to determine lead poisoning and anyone who is worried should get a referral for a blood test from their doctor.

But Mr Dodds says there is no evidence yet that the human population has had any exposure to lead.

"We've seen the results of some analysis of bloods of people who've been done voluntarily in the community, and none of the numbers that we've seen in that have been very high," he said.

"In fact, some of the ones we've seen have been well below Australian average numbers. And we are quite confident that those ones we've seen are well below that guideline value.

"We've seen a family that was connected, we've seen a couple of others and we've also seen the results of occupational lead exposures in the community."

Mr Dodds says if residents have not had their rainwater tanks tested for lead, they should not use them.

"Whilst they've been over the Australian drinking water guideline values, have actually [have] just been over," he said.

"It's not unusual to see that in rainwater tanks, especially if there's lead plumbing devices connected, as there often are in roof catchments. And we want to have a look to just confirm that's the case there."

Shire president Ian Mickel says the people of Esperance do have concerns.

"Whether it's in people's bodies at the present time in minute amounts or not is not what we're looking for," he said.

"It's free for people to go and have a blood test to themselves and check their own personal health.

"But we want to know if this is in our atmosphere or in our environment, spread across our community. And that's what we need to find out as soon as possible.

CSIRO study

Professor Brian Gulson conducted a CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation) study into lead levels in Broken Hill in the 1990s.

He has since carried out further studies in Port Pirie, Mount Isa and Hobart.

Now with the Graduate School of the Environment at Macquarie University, Professor Gulson has been asked to help with the Esperance problem.

He says there are new studies associating high lead levels in blood with anti-social behaviour.

"The most important ones these days that are coming out of the studies - especially that have been carried out in the US - are behavioural problems, and they've actually been associating high blood lead levels with delinquency and even... and crime," he said.

"The biggest concern, or one of the big concerns, is the neurological effects, of course, which can affect the learning… give rise to learning difficulties in children."

Professor Gulson says the bird deaths may be an early warning sign for the people of Esperance.

"The birds may be showing us that they're so-called sentinels. The work at Broken Hill, in fact, the alarm bells were rung in Broken Hill by the vets out there showing that the dogs were dying and then the people suddenly say, 'Oh gosh, if the dogs are dying, then what's happening to our children?'," he said.

"And this business of dogs being sentinels, and maybe the birds are being sentinels, was known back in the days of Pliny - talked about dogs dying with a special rapidity. And so certainly if it affects the birds, there's a very good chance that it affects people.

"The most sensitive people, of course, would be young children, who would be crawling around in the dirt and getting the material on their hands and then putting it in their mouth."


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User talk:213.84.65.210

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

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You have been temporarily blocked from editing for vandalism of Wikinews. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may do so after the block expires. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 13:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:213.84.65.210


text:
User talk:78.101.115.112

You have been temporarily blocked from editing for vandalism of Wikinews. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may do so after the block expires. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 13:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:78.101.115.112


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User talk:213.168.40.242

You have been temporarily blocked from editing for vandalism of Wikinews. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may do so after the block expires. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 13:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:213.168.40.242


text:
User talk:12.202.230.168

Welcome
Welcome!

12.202.230.168, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
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If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 13:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:12.202.230.168


text:
India's moon craft reaches final lunar orbit

November 14, 2008

India's first lunar mission, the Chandrayaan-1 (meaning 'moon craft' in Sanskrit), reached its destined lunar orbit on Wednesday. The satellite's on-board engine was fired for 58 seconds.

It is now in a circular orbit 102 kilometres from the Moon. It will stay in this orbit for two years and conduct various experiments to gain a better understanding of the Moon.

According to Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) officials, the Moon Impact Probe (MIP), with an Indian flag painted on it, will be dropped late tonight. The MIP has a mass of 29 kg and it will take 20 minutes to reach the moon's surface. On-board cameras will film the surface during descent.


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Egyptian doctor sentenced to fifteen years jail, 1,500 lashes in Saudi Arabia

November 14, 2008 Raouf Amin el-Araby, a 52-year-old Egyptian doctor who has been serving the Saudi Royal family for 20 years, was convicted of malpractice. Egyptian newspapers reported that he was accused of driving a Saudi princess "to addiction", reportedly after treating a Saudi princess with painkillers.

Initially sentenced to 7 years and 700 lashes, he has been sentenced to 15 years and 1500 lashes, 70 a week, after making an appeal.

Family members, friends and colleagues gathered in outrage and grief outside the headquarters of Egypt's doctors union, calling upon King Abdullah to pardon Raouf. "1,500 lashes is unprecedented in the history of Islam," read one banner carried by protesters. "Who is responsible for the humiliation of our doctors abroad?" read another.

The Egyptian Organization for Human Rights (EOHR) and the foreign minister are working hard to find a way to return Raouf home quickly. Hafez Abu Saeda, the director of EOHR, stated that the princess was prescribed the same medication that she was receiving in the United States, "so it is obvious that the doctor was not at fault for her addiction."

Abu Saeda was astonished that the judge doubled the sentence and the lashes after the appeal. It is tantamount, he said, to penalizing Amin for asserting his right of appeal. "When you appeal against a sentencing it is the rule that it cannot go higher, but in Saudi Arabia it appears anything is possible," said Saeda.

Protests in Egypt have driven the Egyptian foreign ministry to seek a solution, partly out of concern that negative repercussions may damage relations between Cairo and Riyadh.

A human rights lawyer said that he was given the first 70 lashes last week and he will get 70 more this week.


text:
User talk:148.100.228.185

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 15:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how an article should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:148.100.228.185


text: File:BBC Radio Bristol.gif

title: File:BBC Radio Bristol.gif


text:
Comments:Wikileaks spokesperson discusses recent court case with Wikinews

This is how Lavely and Singer works. They have even scared off wikipedia. A low level comedian, mathilde aka tig notaro, has hired Allison Sievers from Lavely and Singer to represent her against someone this notaro wronged. Instead of coming clean this noname comedian decided she needed to dole out lots of dough to beat this person down. Sievers for her part, didn't make any effort at reasonable inquiry. Instead,she send abusive motions filled with actionable defamation. She made bizzarre threats to testify in court against the victim even though their is no rational way she could do so.

This lawyers works of counsel and yet doesn't make any effort to divulge that and so Lavely and singer is responsible for the sactions that will be granted if the judge is not in their pocket.

Shame on you Marty Singer!


text:
Talk:Egyptian doctor sentenced to fifteen years jail, 1,500 lashes in Saudi Arabia

Style
"&" is not a acceptable substitute for the word "and" in prose. --SVTCobra 16:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Review
--Brian McNeil / talk 16:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


text:
Wikinews:Water cooler/miscellaneous/Archive/18

Wikipedia 'display case' page
I created a page on Wikipedia at w:Portal:Featured content/Wikimedia to showcase materials from the other Wikimedia projects, including Wikinews. However, unlike the other projects I couldn't find anything like an archive of 'best pages'. Due to that, and the fact that Wikinews is inherently focused on current pages, I set the page to randomly display one of the current lead articles from Wikinews each time the cache is purged. Please let me know if there is some better option for this. --CBDunk (talk) 00:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This has a few of our best pages, but there aren't that many. Majorly (talk) 01:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That and our Original Reporting as well. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 01:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The current article you have for the featured article is not a featured article but a recent lead. If you would please update so that it uses articles actually from Featured articles. The Mind's Eye (talk) 03:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I couldn't find any prepared 'blurbs' for the featured articles, but I created such for the first ten. These are now being displayed on the page above. I'll finish out the rest of the featured articles in the same way. --CBDunkerson (talk) 23:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for new verification method on WN
Hi. I am writing this to ask for your opinions on a new verification method I have briefly discussed with Brian McNeil in IRC. As you are aware, at the moment, in order to verify the credentials of a Wikinews Accredited Reporter, the party viewing the credentials needs to make a phone call or send a fax.

I believe that the process of credential verification could be speeded up by the use of Photographic evidence in the format of a passport sized photograph attached to the reporters credentials, and the same photograph being added to the  template.

This would allow a person presented with the credentials to view the photographic evidence on the pass,and also the photo on the user's AR box, and immediately confirm that the person presenting those credentials is verified and accredited.

These photos should also be available somewhere on wikinewsie.org so that anyone mailing the reporter can verify them by sight.

The photo would obviously need to be recent (< 3 months old) so it is fairly up to date.

If you take a look at my userpage, here you will see that I have uploaded a photograph of myself to use as visual verification. It was only taken yesterday, but gives you an idea of the kind of thing I am referring to.

This is not a vote, simply a request for comments and thoughts. Any problems you forsee would also be welcomed.

Iceflow (talk) 22:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For Wikinewsie.org I have repeatedly pestered people to provide photos. I know Craig (CSpurrier) is working on a more net-wide setup for credentialling, but that seems to be moving at a glacial pace. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:10, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Anthrax case
Did we have any stories about Bruce Ivins suicide? It looks now like the FBI only fingered him because he was mentally fragile. They don't really have any evidence. Indeed their story about how he must have mailed the anthrax is directly contradicted by the post office. So this might be an interesting piece of OR if someone wants to sort out all the details. It seems the wikipedia article isn't very organized yet, so having a nice wikinews article and the inconsistencies in the FBIs story might help. In defense of the FBI, it's normal police practice to blame the guy who seems the most effected mentally. Nyarlathotep (talk) 15:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, we have three:

 * I am not sure why you needed me to tell you that. --SVTCobra 15:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure why you needed me to tell you that. --SVTCobra 15:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure why you needed me to tell you that. --SVTCobra 15:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure why you needed me to tell you that. --SVTCobra 15:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

 * heh, not sure either, I'd probably miss clicked on august 8 when looking for it. It would be nice if we had a better search engine, but not much that can be done about that.  Anyway, the main point was the new information contradicting the FBIs version.  Nyarlathotep (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Latest News on Wikipedia Article View Stats
If anyone is interested, I have the latest information on the status of the Wikimedia Foundation's page view stats, with a response from the person in charge of it, Erik Zachte. In my response to him, I asked him to ensure Wikinews is included. So...fingers crossed. --David Shankbone (talk) 22:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We sort of got included a while back - Popular articles. and other tools. Bawolff ☺☻ 03:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears China has been cheating in gymnastics
China has been cheating in gymnastics by using 14 year old girls, looks like the IOC may be helping them cover it up too. Nyarlathotep (talk) 16:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Interview at Accra climate negotiations; possible COI Issues
Hello everyone, (I've not been around much, but the one or the other knows me I think) I have a question regarding an interview I might be making. I'm currently at the UNFCCC negotiations in Accra, registered and working for an NGO (Germanwatch). Working on a voluntary basis however (I paid my own flight, I might be getting the hotel). Now here at the conference I might have the opportunity to interview a member of the World council of Churches here. This would be facilitated by Germanwatch, and of course they/we do have an interest in getting the potential message out (it looks like I might be interviewing someone from Africa, with a focus on the effects of climate change that are already to be felt). However, we do have the feeling that the interview could still be held in a manner that would keep a neutral point of view. Knowing that there is quite some potential for a conflict of interests, I wanted to give a shout out and ask for peoples take on the issue.

Many Regards, and open for all opinions, Sean Heron (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

PS One thought that came to me is that perhaps if questions where proposed for me to ask / I posted the questions I want to ask in advance so that they can be scrutinized/ changed/ added to, that would make for some transparency. However, I might be interviewing earlier than I had supposed (perhaps even today), so I guess that's a bit of a problem :/. Still, I shall set up an article preparation in a sec, and then link to it from here. Sean Heron (talk) 17:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Link: Interview with Member(s) of World Council of Churches, in Accra

Another twist: I may not be holding the interview myself, but rather just doing the technical side of things. It's not as if we were doing this with the exclusive thought of putting it here, so I guess I might just make a transcript, put it up here and then you can see what you think more concretely I guess. Sean Heron (talk) 07:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Google Chrome...
... is awesome. I just felt that I had to say that. :) Thunderhead 21:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not until it comes out for linux ;), but screenshots/comic looks promising. (although from the comic strip, i doubt there whole ui paradigm will work well with my window manager (ratpoision). might have to change to a window manager that actually manages windows when i try this out. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Water_cooler/proposals/Archive/18 - Note! Archived, do not edit.
 * Water_cooler/proposals/Archive/18 - Note! Archived, do not edit.
 * Water_cooler/miscellaneous/Archive/17 - Note! Archived, do not edit.
 * Water_cooler/technical/Archive/12

Pet hates or gripes
There's always something that gets you about some random Wikinews article, and it can be something trivial or something important. Having just - yet again - come across one that I've had since I first got involved, I thought I'd share it and invite other people to air their laundry about the little things that bug you when editing or reading here.

Add your own below, and comment on those of others. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The BBC.
 * These guys have to be one of our most frequently used sources, hardly a day goes by that we don't have at least one article drawing content from what they've published. Being such a large organisation they have several entries on Wikipedia, my pet hate is how these are cited in the source template. My firmly held belief is that we should always specify BBC News Online as it is the website we're sourcing from, not the nebulous corporation - BBC, and not the news arm BBC News. The only exception I can think of is BBC Sport, but nine times out of ten you'd get to the sport article via the news website. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The Guardian and AFP:
 * As long as we're talking about sources, we might as well talk about these two. It isn't "guardian" or "The Guardian", it is "guardian.co.uk" (small "g" please). And AFP is "Agence France-Presse". Not that hard people! Also, just like it shouldn't be "British Broadcasting Corporation", it shouldn't be "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation" either; it should be "CBC.ca" (in caps like that). We're not talking about the corporate entity, and we shouldn't link there if there is a more specific link that could be used instead. Gopher65talk 07:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Not using Wiktionary when they should:
 * I also don't like it when people don't bother linking to seldom used - or region specific - words using Wiktionary. It's easy: do it exactly the way you would when linking to wikipedia, just throw a "wikt:" in there instead of a "w:". Here's a helpful list of interwiki shortcuts that you should bookmark: Interwiki linking. Gopher65talk 07:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments
The Wiktionary idea is interesting, Gopher65 do you have any specific words you've seen in recent articles that you believe should have been linked? I am tempted to ask if we should use a different method of linking than the same as for WP to highlight it goes to the word's definition. However, I've not personally spotted any instances recently where I believe this would have been appropriate; is it something that links with the idea of a Simple English Wikinews? --Brian McNeil / talk 08:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking primarily in science stories, or in stories that are local/regional. For instance: Australian English uses a good many words that either 1)simply don't exist in Canadian English, or 2)have a different meaning. (And I'm sure we're all familiar with some of the more snicker-worthy Queens/American English differences, like "rubber".) As for science stories, sometimes a link to Wikipedia is justified, but other times a simple definition would be more informative. As an example, here are the Wikipedia and Wiktionary links for "radioelement", which is a word that doesn't enter into most people's vocabularies: Wikipedia, Wiktionary.

 * As you can see the Wikipedia article (quite correctly) redirects to Radioactive decay, because radioelement isn't worthy of its own article. You might be able to find the definition of the word in there, if you look hard enough, but I doubt most people would bother (and honestly, I don't see anything even mentioning radioelements in the wikipedia article. It is more of a general topic article). Wiktionary on the other had presents a simple definition. That's a lot more useful in this case, as it instantly tells the reader exactly what they needed to know. (Interestingly, some of the online dictionaries seem to copy from each other just like CNN copies from AP, and many of them don't have the correct definition of radioelement.) But I don't want every single word linked. I read an article a little while ago that had the word "explosion" linked. Really? Explosion? That's completely unnecessary; only uncommon and regional words should be wikt-linked, IMO.

 * What is this Simple English Wikinews you speak of? Linky? Gopher65talk 16:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Simple english wikinews was a proposal to open a dumbed-down version of wikinews to thoose who are learning the language, or for kids (but honestly kids aren't that stupid). Similiar to simple: Anyways didn't gain enough support (thankfully, i don't like simple projects) - see Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition. [note:despite my hatred of simple, I do like the wikt idea] Bawolff ☺☻ 08:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at the United Nations 2008
Here are photos from the protests outside of the United Nations when Ahmadinejad spoke. --David Shankbone (talk) 22:42, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The Telegraph (UK) plagiarizes Wikipedia?
From this breaking discussion, it appears that The Daily Telegraph (UK) copied the text of James Crumley(permalink) almost verbatim. Doesn't look like any other news source has broken the story yet. Seems newsworthy. Would an accredited reporter like to ask the paper for a comment? Durova (talk) 05:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have emailed the NUJ General Secretary for comment, CC'd to wikinews-l.
 * What we need:
 * Revision plagiarised.
 * Telegraph editorial contacts.
 * More details on the alleged Scotsman incident (see WP discussion). --Brian McNeil / talk 08:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Emailed WMF UK's press contact to try and get good email address at the Telegraph. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * David didn't have a Telegraph email, I went through the front door. Email in wikinews-l, per one to NUJ. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it safe to assume that neither replied? Where can we go from here? --SVTCobra 00:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

700,000 edits
There have now been over 700,000 edits to Wikinews

 * Edit 700,000
 * Edit 1

Anonymous101talk 13:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What? I'm only responsible for 3% of the edits! I've been slacking. :-P --Brian McNeil / talk 13:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sent a note to wikizine. Hopefully it'd get mentioned it next edition. Good work everyone. Bawolff ☺☻ 03:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

AutoArchiving
Any one opposed to Auto Archiving of this page for threads when they haven't been edited for thirty days? Anonymous101talk 08:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. It is kinda a pain to archive this page. --Brian McNeil / talk 09:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Getting more articles... a different approach
There has been a lot of talk on the wiki recently about contributer recruitment and other things to get more content on Wikinews, and several legnthy discussions about getting new users. One thing that I have noticed is that many active users/admins do not write articles anywhere nearly as often as they used to, and that if they all wrote just 3 articles a week are article count would be way hight.

So basically, stop reading this message and go and write an article. Anonymous101talk 15:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Anyone who spends an hour a day on IRC or makes long comments at the water cooler cannot claim they do not have enough time to write articles. Anonymous101talk 15:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I did two the day after this comment went up, but only one yesterday since. I'd like to think the level of detail/quality in what I wrote made up for not doing more. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 3 articles in one week is more than one most people do anyway, and you did write very good quality articles. Anonymous101talk 20:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I count it as 2 last week, 1 this week - but thanks for the compliment. I enjoy doing the Thailand stuff, I know what I'm talking about most of the time. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I also consider the articles a sort-of, "proving I can still bring home the bacon" and something to justify giving advice to our newer contributors. If I can't write something decent then I should not be trying to tell other people how to. For the latest one, I read every single source before I wrote a word. I then only referred to sources to get spelling and details correct. I also dug up people's Wikipedia entries for facts (and checked them against sources - i.e. verify WP). It wasn't a lot of edits but it was an intense couple of hour's work that gives a satisfying result. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 0_o That's how I thought every article got written Brianmc. I've only written a few, but even the shortest of them has never taken me less than an hour. And the single article that I wrote from scratch took me a good... 5 hours or so to research and write—and it wasn't long. I may be on IRC for an hour or so every day (all day logged in, but most of it AFK), but that doesn't mean I have time to spend writing an article. When I do an article I make sure I *understand* the topic and the news fully before I start to write. So writing an article is a real endeavour for me, not something to be taken lightly. Gopher65talk 17:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've managed an article in well under an hour before - if you look at some of my really early ones you'll see there's not a lot too them. I read fast, and am a fair-to-middling typist. Yes, good work takes longer. --Brian McNeil / talk 18:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Freedom of Information request sent to US Department of Defense
To inform the community, I have fired an FOIA request at the United States Department of Defense. The purpose is to investigate the suspicious wreck of a civilian airliner in Iraq at a US air base. 2007 Balad aircraft crash has the details, but doesn't cover why the thing seems dodgy, since the allegations have not been made in reliable sources and the rest is speculation. However, the lack of investigative reports, the fact that Turkey were not allowed - possibly illegally - to join the investigation, witness claims of a missile strike, the immediate denial of anything except an accident, the fact that images obtained by FOI (which gave me the idea) don't seem to show an airliner that came down in one bit (not enough fire, shallow impact scars despite soft ground, short impact scars for heavy debris suggesting it dug in and stopped quickly, wreckage spread out), the fact that witnesses refute claims of fog in the area and the fact that some people claim sources in the know have told them the plane inadvertantly triggered an automated missile defense system over the hospital do make a lot of circumstancial evidence for a coverup. 34 civilian lives were lost in an alledged accident, so the public at large have a right to know what happened to the aircraft for their safety, and US voters have a right to confirmation there was no coverup - or to have one exposed. Accordingly, I have requested that the US DoD cough up a large list of documents which should, if supplied, allow me to conclusively tell the world either way. In reality, I likely won't get them all, and they may be doctored, but regardless here is what I have requested:

 * Minutes of any and all meetings at which parties to the investigation were decided; specifically, the meetings where it was decided that Iraq, the US and Moldova would be party to the investigation and the meeting were it was decided to deny Turkey access to the investigative team; (<-- I expect difficulty with this one, but dunno what excuse they could give)

 * A transcript of the Cockpit Voice Recorder tape and the readout from the Flight Data Recorder;

 * Confirmation of the current location of the wreckage, especially of the Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder as it is unclear wether these remained in Iraq or were decoded in Moscow (For these devices, all information regarding their whereabouts from the moment of the accident onwards are requested); (<-- This is due to disputes between Turkey and the others over what happened to the CVR/FDR)

 * All availible images of the debris and cargo both at the crash site and in storage, especially images taken specifically to aid the investigation; (<-- I suspect there will be nothing new, they likely gave it all to that other guy, but lets find out)

 * The preliminary accident report and any and all interim reports; (<-- They may well deny these exist)

 * The current draft of the final report; (<-- As above)

 * Any and all documents containing assesments of the veracity of the claim of responsibility made by the insurgent group Islamic Army in Iraq; (<-- May be denied on security grounds, but shouldn't be)

 * Any and all witness statements given to the investigative team or the air base;

 * Weather radar readouts, weather forcasts and weather station readouts for the air base and sorounding area at the time of the crash;

 * Documents detailing the exact location of key pieces of wreckage including any and all maps of the debris field if produced - these must be availible as images show GPS readings being taken at various key points in the debris field;

 * Air Traffic Control radar data for the aircraft from at least thirty minutes prior to impact up to the crash;

 * A map of the airbase and sorounding area showing its layout and any and all areas of restricted airspace; (<-- They won't like that. I'll likely get a map, but without restricted airspace - national security again)

 * Design details of any and all anti-aircraft systems installed at the air base; specifically what level of automation is involved and what is required to trigger the system. (<-- Highly unlikely, the only one that may be justified under the 'national security' claim)

I will let you know the results. They have twenty working days to reply, I sent it a few days ago. If they don't reply I will complain/appeal and report on that. If they withold the documents I will complain/appeal and report on that, and obviously if they cough up that gets reported on in great detail. In short: a guaranteed exclusive investigative piece. Stay tuned. Blood Red Sandman (Talk)   (Contribs) 18:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I wish you good luck, but if you read Freedom of Information Act, I think you will find they have plenty of stones to hide under. --SVTCobra 00:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


text: Talk:Wikinews Shorts: November 13, 2008

title: Talk:Wikinews Shorts: November 13, 2008


text:
Wikinews:WikiBureau Economics and business

WikiBureau Economy and business attempts to bring editors together who are working on writing and publishing articles regarding topics in the field of economy and business.

Create a new article in this topic:

Articles on Economy and business
Please improve the articles in development/published today and review the articles requiring review.

Good Sources

 * BBC Business News
 * Google News - Business

Members
Feel free to ask members if you want help on any article for this topic.

 * Anonymous101talk 18:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * --PatrickFlaherty (talk) 04:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Use code to add the below userbox to your user page


text:
Wikinews:WikiBureau Economics and business/IntroNewPage

'Thanks for starting a new article on the economy and/or business! Here are some things to consider. See Writing an article and WikiBureau Economics and business for more information.'


text:
User talk:130.234.204.190

Welcome
Welcome!

130.234.204.190, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Here are some other hints and tips:

 * I would recommend that you get a username. You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikinews, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires no personal information (not even an e-mail address), and there are many benefits of having a username.  (If you edit without a username, your IP address is used to identify you instead.)

 * When using talk pages (the "collaboration" tab at the top of the page), or the comments pages (tab "opinions"), please sign your name at the end of your messages by typing four tildes (~~). This will automatically produce your username (or IP address) and the date.

If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:130.234.204.190


text:
User talk:77.98.188.224

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 20:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how an article should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:77.98.188.224


text:
User talk:87.118.100.175

Welcome
Welcome!

87.118.100.175, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Here are some other hints and tips:

 * I would recommend that you get a username. You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikinews, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires no personal information (not even an e-mail address), and there are many benefits of having a username.  (If you edit without a username, your IP address is used to identify you instead.)

 * When using talk pages (the "collaboration" tab at the top of the page), or the comments pages (tab "opinions"), please sign your name at the end of your messages by typing four tildes (~~). This will automatically produce your username (or IP address) and the date.

If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Cirt (talk) 20:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:87.118.100.175


text:
Comments:BBC Radio Bristol presenter fired over 'racist' phone call

She should probably teach her daughter what a "turban" is. It is a hat.

she deserved to be fired....get a grip, even a 14 year old girl has to come to terms with the fact that men exist in this world and all of them are not caucasian.....people do not think before they speak, that must change....let her think about it for a broke minute....all men are not pediphiles and perverts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.157.206 (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)