text:
User:Microchip08/Log

[21:06:54] * pizero claps xyr hands firmly, and counts how many times the echo bounces back across the empty chamber [21:09:31]  ECHO [21:09:32]  echo [21:09:34]  echo [21:09:35]  ech [21:09:36]  ec [21:09:37]  e [21:09:38] . [21:24:04] --> BarkingFish has joined this channel (~thor@wikipedia/BarkingFish). [21:26:16]  Well this is a lively debate, isn't it? [21:26:20]  Where is everybody? [21:26:40]  Oh, is it meant to have started? [21:26:50]  Yes, 20 minutes ago [21:27:02] * MC8 got all the timezones mixed up [21:27:04]  20H UTC is 21H British Summer Time [21:27:13]  it's now 21.23 [21:27:22]  Well, I actually got the 24h clock mixed up [21:27:37] * MC8 has missed trains based on misunderstanding 24h clocks [21:27:37] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [21:28:01] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@li187-123.members.linode.com). [21:28:02] <-- wn-log has left this server (Changing host). [21:28:02] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@wikimedia/Microchip08/bot/Picochip08). [21:28:02] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v wn-log [21:28:51]  My contribution so far is to try and wrest control of #wikinews-en-admins [21:28:59]  It's not working very well [21:29:07] --> Badmin has joined this channel (~Sandman@wikinews/Blood-Red-Sandman). [21:29:16] <BarkingFish> evening Badmin :) [21:29:24] <Badmin> hey [21:29:31] --> dendodge has joined this channel (~dendodge@wikinews/Dendodge). [21:30:06] <BarkingFish> Anyone wishing to view the agenda for this evenings meeting, please go to http://enwn.net/492B0 [21:30:09] * MC8 needs to find a better log bot [21:30:18] <BarkingFish> I know it's in the topic, but how many of us read it? :) [21:30:41] *** You set the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors?". [21:31:01] The agenda has one thing on it... [21:31:20] <MC8> this is even worse planned that the bbq I went to last night [21:31:22] Stupid question: are we logging yet? [21:31:30] <MC8> !help [21:31:30] <wn-log> This channel is publicly logged at http://chippy.ch/logs – to say something off-the-record, say !off at any point during the message. [21:31:30] <wn-log> Anyone can restart the (rather rudimentary) bot if needed; contact MC8 for details. [21:31:30] <wn-log> [21:31:45] <MC8> ^ [21:31:51] Hm. [21:31:53] <MC8> (yes) [21:32:02] <MC8> If the bot decides to behave this time [21:32:10] <Badmin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Blood_Red_Sandman - I've been told of a specific user to possibly recruit [21:32:14] !off I like cheese. [21:32:56] <BarkingFish> Well this is a small turnout, let's hope we can make some use of the time. [21:33:54] <BarkingFish> So, improving PR among other WMF projects. Funnily enough, I was discussing this last night with geniice in #wikipedia-en [21:33:58] !off I propose that we add to the agenda: Tina O'Brien or Amy Pond? 9_9 [21:33:58] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [21:34:32] <MC8> bad bot [21:34:40] heh [21:34:52] Laughter is good exercise, though. [21:34:53] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@li187-123.members.linode.com). [21:34:54] <-- wn-log has left this server (Changing host). [21:34:54] --> wn-log has joined this channel (~wn-log@wikimedia/Microchip08/bot/Picochip08). [21:34:54] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v wn-log [21:34:56] * MC8 just stuck a link to here in the site notice [21:35:00] *** ChanServ sets the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors? | Tina O'Brien or Amy Pond?". [21:35:01] Is the meeting on hold while we wait for the bot to finish its tea break? [21:35:14] <Badmin> I mean, uh, this is very serious. [21:35:15] Oh, it's back :P [21:35:17] <MC8> nah, I expect most people are logging in here [21:35:30] <BarkingFish> Apparently, we produce what geniice refers to as "churnalism" - that is, taking everyone else's work and simply rehashing it when it's already out there. [21:35:46] <Badmin> ...Like Wikipedia? [21:35:47] Well, we do :P [21:35:57] We need OR, and lots of it. [21:36:04] <BarkingFish> This is one of the reasons why Wikipedia doesn't view us in a very good light. [21:36:20] Because we do what they do, but more reliably? [21:36:26] <MC8> "Hey, come visit Wikinews! We vomit up other news sources under a free licence!" [21:36:26] <MC8> ] [21:36:29] <Badmin> Side-note: I have major OR in the works, but for legal reasons exactly what cannot be revealed yet. [21:36:56] Quality OR is massive work *and* requires that you already know what you're doing (from writing synthesis). [21:37:44] <Badmin> Well, a little OR is easy for many stories - think of someone at least tangentially able to comment, give their press office a ring or email. [21:38:01] <Badmin> We should do more of that 'base' OR as well as the occasional major stuff. [21:38:23] <MC8> BarkingFish: your bug went up to critical/highest, btw [21:38:29] <BarkingFish> yes, I saw [21:38:30] We should be aiming to get some OR in ~75% of our stories, really. [21:38:33] <BarkingFish> Max put it up there [21:38:33] <-- wn-log has left this server (Remote host closed the connection). [21:38:38] It's easy for a veteran Wikinewsie to say it's "easy". [21:38:43] * MC8 gives up with the bot [21:38:47] Even if it's just, "Person X told Wikinews..." [21:38:54] <Badmin> MC8: For the benefit of people reading the log some time later, please explain what bug. [21:39:06] <BarkingFish> Anyway, just as an example, I'd like to show you 2 responses I got during the discussion - one from Prodego, one from Geniice. [21:39:17] <BarkingFish> Prodego> BarkingFish: so should we link to the article published by professional journalists, or by people editing a wiki? [21:39:17] <BarkingFish> BarkingFish the problem is that wikinews' niche is already filled by blogs and indymedia [21:39:18] <MC8> 28685 [21:39:19] <Wikilink2_> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/28685 [21:39:31] <Badmin> lol blogs [21:39:41] --> lustre has joined this channel (~jbeebz@wikimedia/fetchcomms). [21:39:42] Since when have blogs had NPoV? [21:39:47] <BarkingFish> Someone even suggested that the WMF should close Wikinews [21:39:48] <Badmin> (that's about all I have to say about that) [21:40:03] *Bad* OR is easy, and if we encourage a lot of OR, that's what we'll get. Project standards will start down a slippery slope... [21:40:13] Someone tell me why a workshop is being held on IRC? [21:40:14] Wikinews doesn't need closing. It just needs to be refocused. [21:40:31] lustre: So we can discuss things quickly and easily? [21:40:38] Informally, then? [21:40:43] dendoge: Since never. [21:40:46] I mean, what exactly is the goal of this? [21:40:52] No, it's formal in here. [21:40:55] Everything official will need to be repeated onwiki, anyway. [21:41:00] Badsically, we discuss ideas. [21:41:06] That's why it has public logs. [21:41:06] <Badmin> This is why we don't listen to the criticism - because it's rubbish. We need *decent* criticism, and frankly we can supply much of that ourselves. [21:41:10] IRC doesn't hold weight, despite the fact that the WMF board meets on it. [21:41:15] That's why it has public logs. [21:41:23] dendodge, it's still no excuse for onwiki discussion. [21:41:25] People can read the logs, and then commend on what was said. [21:41:32] *comment [21:41:50] <Badmin> The feedback from the journalism students will be most interesting. [21:41:51] <BarkingFish> well how's this for criticism [21:42:02] <BarkingFish> "accept that wikinews can never do more than rehash the work of real journalists so it's utterly pointless" [21:42:12] Yes, I'd be interested in what the journalism students have to say. [21:42:18] Wikinews was a horrible idea. [21:42:20] We can do our own OR. [21:42:24] Who proposed it? [21:42:26] <Badmin> Yeah, which is why we ignore most of it BFish. [21:42:40] <MC8> lustre: andrea iirc, don't quote me on that [21:42:40] lustre: The original proposal was from an anon IP. [21:42:40] <Badmin> lustre: Are you here to do anything constructive? [21:42:44] Yes. [21:42:45] <BarkingFish> The point is, Badmin - we shouldn't be ignoring it. [21:42:47] I have lots of criticism. [21:42:51] Erik Möller refined it, IIRC. [21:42:54] Ugh, anons ruining life. [21:42:55] <BarkingFish> I got a lot of suggestions last night. [21:43:20] <BarkingFish> "We need to focus on OR, since mixing it with the kind of churnalism we turn out kinda devalues the OR aspect" [21:43:31] We do need to focus on OR. [21:43:37] I've been saying that for a long time. [21:43:41] It's hard when you only have 20 active editors. [21:43:43] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Badmin [21:43:45] But yes, it's ncessary. [21:43:50] necessary* [21:43:57] <BarkingFish> "Anyone with a couple of hours to spare could walk into a court tomorrow and pick up 5 to 10 newsworthy stories" [21:44:03] We need to work on in-depth, collaborative, OR stories. [21:44:14] The problem is that no one likes reviewing long articles. [21:44:20] <BarkingFish> dendodge: Well we saw one recently, the photojournalist deaths one. [21:44:21] <Badmin> BarkingFish: That, OTOH, is a very good comment [21:44:29] That's where the wiki model will be an advantage. Collaboration. [21:44:34] [Completion] Possible completions: Badmin BarkingFish. [21:44:36] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Badmin [21:44:42] We don't have enough users to get the good stuff published. [21:45:07] <Badmin> (well, not anyone. I can't walk to Edinburgh or Newcastle to get to a decent court) [21:45:12] <BarkingFish> I think the etherpad experiment between AutisticPsycho, MC8, and myself was a good example of constructive, active collaboration [21:45:17] <Badmin> (but I get the point) [21:45:25] <MC8> It's something I'd like to repeat [21:45:35] I spent two days in the local Mags once. The most interesting case was a lady who stole some ham from Asda. [21:45:45] <BarkingFish> lustre: If the other projects would stop putting us down as half baked and promote our work, maybe we'd have more users [21:45:59] <Badmin> dendodge: I said decent for a reason :p [21:46:11] I've suggested before we should have a model for collaborative review. Last time I got yelled at mercilessly for it. But big articles, like good OR, are exactly when this becomes most important. [21:46:12] Yeah, the Mags hardly count. [21:46:13] BarkingFish: Agreed, but some users (well, mainly one user) has earned us a reputation for being rude [21:46:27] and that's why I've been told multiple times to stay away from WN. [21:46:32] <MC8> lustre: that's something we need to rectify [21:46:41] We can't. [21:46:46] <BarkingFish> lustre: there's more than one user, I can think of at least 2 and one of them is me. [21:46:51] There's so few users a cabal is inevitable, and has formed [21:46:57] BarkingFish, you're too new. [21:47:04] <BarkingFish> 0.0 [21:47:10] It does seem to be the old people vs the new people. [21:47:22] I was told that WN is horrible two years ago. [21:47:29] <BarkingFish> and I joined 2 years ago [21:47:31] near when I first started editing WP [21:47:39] well, you weren't an admin then :P [21:47:43] <BarkingFish> no. [21:47:50] Some, like MC8 and myself, have managed to cross the line and join the "cabal"—most newer users, however, give up and quit in frustration. I can't say I blame them, TBH. [21:47:51] <BarkingFish> But I was still a vicious little sod [21:47:55] dendodge, WN has too steep a learning cuve [21:47:59] curve* [21:48:05] Wikis are not meant for writing news. [21:48:07] It does. We expect too much from people. [21:48:08] <MC8> it has a massive learning curve [21:48:19] <Badmin> Indeed. [21:48:27] We expect people to come in and be as good as real journalists right away. [21:48:31] <BarkingFish> lustre: So why does Wikipedia include so much current affairs stuff? [21:48:32] And that's never going to happen. [21:48:42] BarkingFish: more users [21:48:44] <BarkingFish> Shouldn't they be dunking that in favor of writing an encyclopedia? [21:48:46] lustre: I did suggest a template to gentle the learning curve. Just haven't had time to pursue it yet. [21:48:51] people like adding more pages to their "created" list [21:49:18] <BarkingFish> lustre: at the expense of accuracy, thinking stuff through, vandalism and general crap which people have to clean up later. [21:49:22] WN has less users, therefore more laziness, therefore less interest in cleaning up ugly pages. [21:49:25] <BarkingFish> We do it the other way round, mostly [21:49:40] Even on WP, you see areas where it depends on one/two users [21:49:48] i.e., copyright cleanup [21:49:51] <MC8> pizero: Amgine's quite anti-template; apparently shiny magic templates kill contribs [21:49:57] People hate the menial stuff [21:50:00] <BarkingFish> We start by planning the work, collaborating to write it, checking it, verifying it prior to publication, THEN publishing. [21:50:17] <BarkingFish> Wikipedia is simply : Publish it now, tidy up the cockups later [21:50:27] We generally have articles "owned" by a single person. What we need to do is work *together* on stories. Whether that be with newer users, to gently introduce them to the process, or with established editors to produce our best possible stories. [21:50:32] This template would be a form for new users to fill out; they'd never see the template end of it. [21:50:36] oh yeah, ownership. [21:50:47] news articles are "owned" everywhere else. [21:50:58] <MC8> tbh they're owned here too [21:51:00] That's why every other site has bylines. We don't. But it operates the same way. [21:51:01] They shouldn't be "owned" here. [21:51:14] <BarkingFish> dendodge: They're not always. [21:51:19] They should be collaborative—that's the point of a wiki. [21:51:20] <MC8> they shouldn't be in theory. But they are much of the time [21:51:26] BarkingFish: No, they're not always. [21:51:33] But they usually are. [21:51:43] <BarkingFish> Someone starts a story, someone else goes in and cleans up the typos, copyedits the work, maybe adds something new... [21:51:44] Exceptions are both rare and, usually, our best work. [21:52:15] <MC8> BarkingFish: the majority is generally written by the same author though [21:52:21] pizero: we need an article wizard [21:52:28] <Badmin> +1 [21:52:30] <MC8> +1 [21:52:33] I've said it multiple times and no one helps make one. [21:52:46] * Badmin lacks the ability [21:52:53] <BarkingFish> I lack the concern [21:52:59] lustre: That's kind of what I'm talking about, only I'm going for a low-tech approach. [21:53:16] <BarkingFish> We already have the "start a new story" thing in the newsroom. [21:53:26] that's not good for new users, though. [21:53:39] <BarkingFish> It prepages the box with the necessary templates, all they have to do is type the stuff for the story in. [21:53:41] <Badmin> Nobody ever looks at the newsroom, either. It's of limited use imo. [21:53:42] An extension would really be good, but I don't trust the devs. [21:53:46] I do! [21:53:51] I use the newsroom all the time :P [21:53:58] I don't. [21:54:02] Do people really ignore it? I didn't realize that. [21:54:06] I haven't visited the newsroom for months. [21:54:07] * Badmin just uses RC [21:54:08] "start a new story" is only a step or two away from what I'm talking about, though. [21:54:12] I always have to check to make sure I'm not writing a duplicate. [21:54:16] <BarkingFish> same here [21:54:35] <Badmin> If we had more changes running through, Newsroom might be more useful [21:54:36] I check the newsroom mainly for articles mispublished. [21:54:43] <BarkingFish> and I use the start a new story box too, simply because I forget which dang templates to put on if I start one normally [21:55:00] I use the box, yeah ^_^ [21:55:01] <MC8> I generally start with the box on the MP [21:55:02] I've never started one manually :P [21:55:13] I use the one on the MP, too :) [21:55:14] <Badmin> Yeah, I use the MP box [21:55:37] (On that note, Main Page redesign FTW) [21:55:52] <Badmin> Fascinating though this is, however, we're drfiting more wildly off-course than an Adam Air flight. [21:55:52] omg yes [21:56:01] *** You set the channel topic to "Welcome to the Wikinews Workshop! Everyone is welcome to make and discuss suggestions for improving Wikinews here. Please be respectful of others. | This channel is publicly logged. | Improving PR amongst other Wikimedia projects. How do we recruit more users and make ourselves more attractive for prospective contributors?". [21:56:10] <MC8> (why the hell was that in the topic?) [21:56:15] <Badmin> Yes, Main Page redesign. That's a better thing to discuss than who uses what box ;) [21:56:17] Oh. Are we not going to discuss Tina and Amy? [21:56:24] <Badmin> lol [21:56:27] No. [21:56:41] tiny > amy [21:56:42] <Badmin> MC8: Breaking the ice, mainly. [21:56:47] Amy > Tina [21:56:54] <MC8> Badmin: as well as going into public logs [21:56:54] <Badmin> Tina > Amy [21:57:05] :") [21:57:23] *is* this being logged, still/yet/again? [21:57:32] anywho. [21:57:33] <MC8> yeah, I'll stick it up manually [21:57:33] Yes, it is. [21:57:58] Anyway, back on topic... [21:57:59] <Badmin> Well, yes. Everyone should be able to smile. I see no reason why there can't be occasional humorous exchanges in corporate meetings. Heck, even Parliament. Happier discussions are productive discussions imo. [21:58:07] <BarkingFish> What is happening here is precisely what I raised at the last meeting. All the indians and no bloody chief. [21:58:21] can I ask HOW we fix our issues? [21:58:21] <BarkingFish> Can someone please make sure when we have these meetings that a person takes control of them? [21:58:34] Because it just looks impossible due to how WN is structured. [21:58:36] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v BarkingFish [21:58:41] <MC8> there you go [21:58:43] lustre: Does it? [21:58:56] as reviews are mandatory [21:59:06] and few reviewers review long articles [21:59:09] What we need to do is get our established contributors working together, and with newbies, on collaborative pieces. [21:59:18] and long articles are better than short pieces of fluff [21:59:18] And we need to get rid of mandatory peer review. [21:59:22] <BarkingFish> MC8: I meant someone preferably with experience :) [21:59:33] What happened to that doscussion, anyway? [21:59:35] dendodge: have fun with that, wasn't that being discussed two months ago? [21:59:36] <MC8> BarkingFish: like? [21:59:37] * Badmin wonders why the review problem prevents addressing all the other problems [21:59:38] It seemed to just die. [21:59:44] Long articles are the ones for which collaborative review would be useful. [21:59:48] exactly--WN discussions always die. [21:59:54] *** ChanServ sets mode: -v BarkingFish [22:00:01] <BarkingFish> Like the people who ran the first one, Tempo and Amgine. [22:00:17] <BarkingFish> neither of whom appear to be here, but it should be controlled either way [22:00:18] Tempo didn't even turn up... [22:00:25] <BarkingFish> for the first one? [22:00:27] <MC8> heh, that's the hour up [22:00:29] Yag [22:00:30] <BarkingFish> I thought he was there. [22:00:33] No [22:00:34] <-- Badmin has left this channel ("Atmosphere not great in here"). [22:00:44] <BarkingFish> +1 [22:00:55] Mandatory peer review is what makes us not a blog. [22:01:06] If we write articles that aren't so time-dependent, then publication can take as long as it likes ^_^ [22:01:25] Last week's atmosphere was *much* better. [22:01:35] <-- BarkingFish has left this channel ("Disorganisation is only one step away from chaos."). [22:01:36] again: why are we using IRC? [22:01:42] that's what happens. [22:01:51] Because it allows for real-time discussion. [22:02:01] real-time chaos, too. [22:02:24] WN->volunteers->not paid->lazy without consequence->not enough quality articles [22:02:39] Unfortunately, these workshops have an implicit premise that the existing arrangement must be bad, so bad atmosphere is probably an inevitable trend for them. [22:02:46] WN->quality->lots of rules->new users=confused [22:02:58] those are the two issues I see. [22:03:17] the review process and the complexity. [22:03:25] --> Mattisse has joined this channel (~chatzilla@dt021n80.tampabay.res.rr.com). [22:03:26] collaboration is not hard, we have etherpad. [22:03:27] That's why I proposed to give new users something easier to do than write fully-fledged publication-quality articles. [22:03:45] briefs? [22:03:49] those died out ages ago. [22:04:18] I perked up at etherpad because it sounds great, but haven't had time to investigate it yet. [22:04:57] If it's still *another* different interface, that doesn't seem too promising, though. [22:05:02] <MC8> hello, Mattisse [22:05:17] <Mattisse> hello [22:05:35] yeah, hi Mattisse. 'Fraid things aren't going as smoothly this week. [22:05:40] pizero: it's easy [22:05:49] just type and don't delete anyone else's typing :P [22:06:49] --> Tempodivalse has joined this channel (4a6b4e33@wikimedia/tempodivalse). [22:07:01] <MC8> Tempodivalse: you missed the show [22:07:12] <Tempodivalse> Have we started yet ? [22:07:18] * MC8 blinks [22:07:18] Is it possible that IRC moves *too* fast, and we'd do better running these biweekly workshops on-wiki? [22:07:38] Isn't that the punchline of a joke? [22:08:00] <MC8> Tempodivalse: it started an hour ago [22:08:09] "Ready when you are, C.B.", or something like that. [22:08:15] <Tempodivalse> Really? I must have my time zones mixed up [22:08:23] <Tempodivalse> I don't see the log bot in here, are we on air? [22:08:26] <MC8> yes [22:08:32] Somehow or other. [22:08:41] <Mattisse> This is not the topic. Just curious. Why is the main page being redesigned? [22:08:42] <Tempodivalse> Well, a rather disappointing showing .. hardly a quorum [22:08:52] <MC8> Well, you didn't turn up... [22:09:28] <Tempodivalse> !time [22:09:29] <Wikilink2_> Tempodivalse: UTC: 21:09:29 - San Francisco: 14:09 - New York: 17:09 - London: 22:09 - Brussels: 23:09 - Moscow: 01:09 - New Delhi: 02:39 - Hong Kong: 05:09 - Tokyo: 06:09 - Sydney: 07:09 - Auckland: 09:09 [22:09:56] <MC8> Mattisse: because it's old [22:10:13] Mattisse: look at any other news site [22:10:16] look at wikinews [22:10:18] uggggleeeee. [22:10:21] <Tempodivalse> !time UTC [22:10:22] <Wikilink2_> Tempodivalse: UTC: 21:10 [22:10:26] <Tempodivalse> mc8: wrong [22:10:36] <Tempodivalse> it's started just ten minutes ago [22:10:54] <Tempodivalse> Remember that the UK is no longer on UTC, but an hour ahead ... [22:11:06] <MC8> "Next meeting at April 24 at 20:00 UTC." [22:11:18] Mattisse: Our main page has been in place for some time, and is ugly and out-of-date compared to other news sites. [22:11:26] We just need a change, is all :) [22:11:47] It's not *that* bad. I'm not opposed to some improvements. [22:11:56] it's too ... short [22:11:56] <Tempodivalse> MC8, just because i'm not here, shouldn't mean the workshop can't take place [22:12:08] <Tempodivalse> fetchcomms, actually, i think shorter is better [22:12:16] why? [22:12:21] it shows we have little content to showcase. [22:12:22] <Tempodivalse> I'm a minimalist. [22:12:24] :P [22:12:31] <Tempodivalse> We *do* have only a little content to showcase. [22:12:37] <Tempodivalse> That's the point. [22:12:41] It has been taking place, though the atmosphere drove off one person. [22:12:42] yes, but we have to disguise that. [22:12:51] Tempodivalse: Have you seen my design?  It's only marginally different to the current one, ATM. [22:12:54] <Mattisse> agree on minimalist [22:12:58] People don't want to read a news source that has little news. [22:13:11] <Tempodivalse> Well, then they won't come to WN ... [22:13:15] But we'll have no way to fill all the boxes you want, lustre. [22:13:26] There just aren't enough recent stories. [22:13:40] <Tempodivalse> Content has got to come first, imo [22:13:44] what do you mean, dendodge? [22:13:59] Remember when someone posted on the cooler that they always read Wikinews first, because it's the most neutral site around? [22:13:59] Tempodivalse: but we need to expand our reader base--and through that, our writer base. [22:14:13] <Tempodivalse> we can have the most beautiful ever front page but it's useless if there's no stories to go around [22:14:14] that's half good. [22:14:25] Tempodivalse, yes, but we can have both [22:14:28] lustre: We don't have enough news to fill the various boxes on your design. [22:14:38] you mean the country boxes, or the leads? [22:14:45] The country boxes. [22:14:53] hmm [22:14:54] There's never any news for Oceania. [22:14:59] that's true. [22:15:04] Ever. Not any more, since all our Ozzies left. [22:15:11] well, somwhat [22:15:21] We've had several Australia stories just recently. [22:15:33] <Mattisse> why did the ozzies leave? [22:15:34] That's because of our journalism students, though, isn't it? [22:15:43] <Tempodivalse> more stories = more readers = more contributors. It's that simple, really [22:15:58] That was years ago. They just left. They used to be really active, and interest just faded. [22:16:03] I'm not sure why. [22:16:16] hmm [22:16:19] <Mattisse> why is an important question [22:16:29] dendodge, what about using topic boxes vs region ones? [22:16:41] We should at least be able to have a good number of stories to feature that way. [22:16:46] I still don't think we could fill them. [22:16:58] We usually have less than 20 stories in a week. [22:17:08] I wish there was a way we could rotate the more popular ones [22:17:15] but DPL isn't that smart, I don't think. [22:17:26] <Mattisse> newbies should be treated better [22:17:31] i.e., the top two or three categories each week [22:17:32] <Tempodivalse> Well, trying to disguise that we have a low output isn't the way to go, imo [22:17:42] Mattisse, yes, and making an article should be easier. [22:17:51] <Tempodivalse> ^ and that [22:17:52] We need to be honest, and say, "We're small, but we're friendly. Come and join in!" [22:18:08] --> diegogrez has joined this channel (~diegogrez@186.20.214.99). [22:18:12] Tempodivalse: what can we do, though? news is visual--people won't read if they aren't used to the format. [22:18:14] <Tempodivalse> Just make sure you live up to that [22:18:14] Of course, friendly is an issue we need to work on :P [22:18:33] <Tempodivalse> lustre: Write more stories. [22:18:38] Both of which - treating newbies better and making an article easier - are addressed by the "story form" concept. [22:18:44] Tempodivalse: i know [22:18:51] but I mean, why a wiki as a news platform? [22:18:55] it's weird. [22:18:55] <Mattisse> but when a newbie writes a story and the reviewer fails, saying "read the style guide", that's not friendly or informative [22:19:02] So we can collaborate on news stories. [22:19:04] Mattisse: that's the laziness issue [22:19:09] which is why no one reviews long articles [22:19:21] spam> Tornadoes damage hundreds of Missouri homes, force closure of airport [22:19:21] <Wikilink2_> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Tornadoes_damage_hundreds_of_Missouri_homes%2C_force_closure_of_airport [22:19:23] review that. [22:19:25] :P [22:19:42] What we need is for established editors to join in and help newbies with their articles. [22:19:54] laziness--no incentive [22:19:57] <Mattisse> for example, do you ever post on the newbie's page, notifying them that their article failed and why? [22:20:06] also ownership, i sense people are afraid to "take over" an article. [22:20:06] Mattisse: using a story form would avoid failing newbies articles on most SG issues. [22:20:07] Rather than just failing it, they should sit down and fix it, and try to guide the user through the process by example. [22:20:29] The story form would *also* bring together newbies and experienced Wikinewsies. [22:20:34] <Mattisse> yes, I agree dendodge [22:20:36] <Tempodivalse> dendodge: exactly [22:20:37] dendodge, exactly, although they would feel it's wasted if the noob never edits again [22:20:57] can we name some non-MSM sources that ARE successful, and analyze why? [22:21:03] like newser [22:21:23] <Mattisse> There is almost zero personal interaction with a newbie who has submitted an article. [22:21:49] then again, newbies don't interact back. [22:22:05] they expect their writing to be perfect and don't check to see if the review passed--sometimes, at least. [22:22:06] <MC8> ok, the first hour is up at http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Wikinews:IRC_workshop/April_24,_2011&action=purge [22:22:27] <Mattisse> suppose a newbie writes an article but doesn't know about the Newsroom? [22:22:51] And not checking back would *also* be partly remedied by a "story form". [22:22:59] MC8: Hey, why am I pink? [22:23:07] <MC8> dendodge: I thought you suited it [22:23:07] * pizero does realize xe's talking to xyrself. [22:23:16] no. [22:23:24] i'm half listening :P [22:23:27] <MC8> pizero: I was reading, couldn't think of anything to say back [22:23:48] MC8: Oh. [22:23:50] by story form, you mean a wizard thing? [22:23:58] or a "form of story"?> [22:24:14] A form, with some boxes to fill out... [22:24:28] Probably short boxes for each of the basic questions, [22:24:43] for maybe up to four sources, [22:24:56] yeah [22:25:11] and maybe a few further details. [22:25:15] we need that, but are we going to get it? no. because no one is going to figure out how to put it together. [22:25:18] that's WN for ya. [22:25:20] :P [22:25:26] <Mattisse> aren't there ways a person could start contributing gradually, like at the other wiki sites, without starting off by writing a full article? [22:25:33] <-- diegogrez has left this channel ("Fuckers."). [22:25:52] tempo, look at http://www.newser.com/user-grid.html [22:26:07] they get 3-5 user stories/day [22:26:25] we get around the same, I think. [22:26:27] Mattisse: I don't think so, other than many months of copyediting (which is what I did). [22:26:40] So I figured that should be fixed. [22:26:41] yet we just somehow seem more pitiful [22:26:53] <Tempodivalse> hmm [22:26:56] Mattisse: WN is boring :P [22:27:08] copyedit or write an article or say random things at talk pages [22:27:41] * MC8 edits for the community. (Most of) the community is awesome. [22:28:16] another thing: [22:28:22] users write random stories about everything [22:28:46] so a) no user focuses on a specific area (except like nascar1996) and b) we don't cover the BIG HEADLINES. [22:29:07] <MC8> you can't force users to make certain articles [22:29:11] I know [22:29:14] Nor should we. [22:29:22] but that's one problem. [22:29:33] and how do we solve it other than getting more users? [22:29:50] <Mattisse> i gave up on the big headlines because after I wrote it I would find someone else already had [22:30:01] We do get more users. But [22:30:27] it *can't* happen overnight, and if we tried to make it happen overnight we'd just wreck the things we do have going for us. [22:30:42] So we keep whittling away at the problems. [22:30:53] I'll tackle the "story form" this week. [22:30:58] <Mattisse> why did users leave here? what happened? [22:31:07] people thought it was getting off topic [22:31:33] Mattisse may be talking about the Great Exodus of 2010. [22:31:40] oohh. [22:32:00] let's not talk about that >.> [22:32:02] <Mattisse> what was that? [22:32:06] <Tempodivalse> ugh [22:32:06] other than it was a dark time in WN history. [22:32:17] There was lots of drama, and a few users resigned over it. [22:32:21] <Tempodivalse> More than a few [22:32:26] Let's not spend the *workshop* talking about it. [22:32:34] <Mattisse> it's referred all the time, but I don't know what happened [22:32:53] <Tempodivalse> mattise, it's a long story [22:33:09] The crux of it was the Matthewedwards fiasco. Search the WN:AAA archives for that name. [22:33:29] Mattisse: basically some shit went down and people were hella rude. [22:33:31] We do need to avoid drama. [22:33:38] <Tempodivalse> There were other facets that were nearly as bad too [22:33:40] and then it was all a misunderstanding and people got mad. [22:33:41] Note that Matthewedwards xyrself stayed, and became a reviewer. [22:33:55] largely inactive, now, though. [22:33:56] Just when things get working quite well, we have a massive argument and everything breaks. [22:34:10] <Tempodivalse> I know. The community hurts itself. [22:34:11] It happens every so often in WN history. [22:34:26] There were issues of not assuming bad faith, though, and whether or not to assume good faith, and (really) reviewing standards. [22:34:28] <Tempodivalse> 98% of the drama we have can be very very easily avoided by not being so brusque [22:34:32] It usually involves an established editor and a newbie pissing each other off. [22:34:51] >_> [22:35:01] anywho [22:35:15] the problem with WN is that it's all volunteers, and it's a hobby. [22:35:37] you can't run a major news site on hobbies without a massive number of volunteers, like WP has. [22:35:41] I've got some ideas about replacing AGI, but I've hesitated to put them on-wiki until they're ready... [22:35:54] and you can't get volunteers without making it nice for them. [22:35:59] like yahoo answers. [22:36:00] <Mattisse> but is nothing is ever discussed, then how does a newbie find out anything? Like me. I feel like I don't know what's going on here. [22:36:14] everything is dumbed down for the computer-illiterate. [22:36:23] Mattisse: WN needs a much better help structure, yes [22:36:37] and Mattisse you don't WANT to know about the Great Exodus thinger [22:36:43] Wikis run on *idealism*. Our idealistic vision is free, neutral, reliable citizen journalism. (Have I missed anything?) [22:37:07] <Mattisse> but all the wikipedia sister projects are all volunteers [22:37:14] <Tempodivalse> Well, i think the first priority (other than writing articles) is to foster a caring, encouraging environment for others [22:37:48] <Mattisse> why do "established" editors hardly ever write articles? [22:37:55] <Tempodivalse> For instance, in the last few weeks I had serious thoughts of just quitting again and giving up. [22:38:28] Mattisse: Some of us (like me) are just too busy, while others (like Brian) prefer working on long-term projects. [22:38:39] <Tempodivalse> Everything seems, well, futile. I hate to be pessimistic, but from personal observations a lot of other users feel the same way [22:38:47] Tempo: Yeah. And do it *without* compromising the idealistic vision. Believing one can do both is itself idealistic. And it's why I'm passionate about Wikinews. [22:38:48] <MC8> right, I've logged up to 2130UTC, could someone do the rest? [22:39:07] Mattisse: you wonder why Wikiquote is horribly in need to cleanup, Wikiversity has major internal issues, and Wikibooks is less-than-half-baked? [22:39:11] I've pretty much given up on writing for WN, since it's a lot of effort, and nobody will ever read it. [22:39:15] wikisource is half decent. [22:39:17] <Tempodivalse> dendodge: same here [22:39:41] And I'm so busy IRL—since I started college, I haven't had time for WN. [22:39:42] <Mattisse> wikisource has a very pleasant atmosphere [22:40:03] dendodge: you stupid brits, getting into college at 16 or 17 [22:40:16] So between college and personal issues, I'm kept too busy to write articles. [22:40:16] Mattisse: that's because there's nothing to bicker over. [22:40:36] personal--girl/boyfriend giving you issues? ;) [22:40:53] <Mattisse> what is there to bicker about here? [22:41:16] <MC8> lustre: college != university [22:41:24] lustre: I don't really want to say in a publicly logged channel :P [22:41:45] Wikinews is *exciting*. Because finding a way to reconcile higher quality demands with wiki-hood is the future of all the projects, and here we're on the front lines of that. [22:41:48] <Mattisse> if editors here don't feel they have the time to write articles, how can you expect a newbie to? [22:41:59] MC8: oh lol [22:41:59] <-- dendodge has left this server (Quit: Read error: Fell off the pier). [22:42:13] <Tempodivalse> I don't really find wikinews exciting any more [22:42:18] dendodge has a girl/boyfriend? o_O [22:42:35] <MC8> lustre: he wishes [22:42:39] --> dendodge has joined this channel (~dendodge@wikinews/Dendodge). [22:43:22] Oops.  I sorta clicked the wrong button :P [22:43:31] hah. [22:43:36] [16:42] lustre dendodge has a girl/boyfriend? [22:43:38] [16:42] MC8 lustre: he wishes [22:43:42] Tempodivalse: doeds anyone [22:43:45] does* [22:43:48] <Mattisse> why don't editors join to cover a particular area? Like on wikipedia - all the editors from India? [22:44:04] really, I only write stuff that's interesting to me. [22:44:05] Hey, I said I didn't want it discussed in a publicly logged channel! [22:44:16] Mattisse: Nascar1996, for example? [22:44:21] <MC8> Mattisse: I like the idea of a workforce, but the problem is getting them there [22:44:26] not enough users. [22:44:27] <Mattisse> but that's true of all the wikis [22:44:30] depressing to write on your own [22:45:22] <Mattisse> yes, like Nascar 1996 [22:46:22] <Mattisse> people from Australia covering Australia, etc. [22:47:46] When I've written, I've looked for a story I wanted to share with Wikinews readers 'cause they might not have heard of it. If that happens to be stories on one topic, fine, but maybe it isn't. [22:48:18] Never gonna get the big stories, that way. [22:48:21] <Mattisse> there was an editor who said he was from china. He wrote an article that sat for days. I finally rewrote it and it was publish but by that time he was gone. [22:48:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o MC8 [22:48:49] *** MC8 sets mode: +F [22:48:50] *** MC8 sets mode: -o MC8 [22:48:55] . [22:48:59] remind me what F is. [22:49:11] <MC8> allow forward [22:49:48] A "story form" might also get established editors more into the habit of editing newbies' articles, and that *might* spill over into the non-form ones too. [22:50:20] (Is it just me, or do I sound like a broken record?) [22:50:51] no. [22:51:06] <Mattisse> but if no one here is willing to write article, why should a newbie? [22:51:14] <MC8> pizero: I like the idea of a story wizard, not sure how one could implement it [22:51:35] * MC8 secretly enjoys metaspace more than mainspace [22:52:08] Mattisse: I'm willing. I just don't have time. [22:53:11] <Mattisse> there is something wrong that I don't know about. [22:53:11] Tornadoes damage hundreds of Missouri homes, force closure of airport [22:53:12] <Wikilink2_> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Tornadoes_damage_hundreds_of_Missouri_homes%2C_force_closure_of_airport [22:53:15] SOMEONE REVIEW THTA. [22:53:17] THAT*. [22:53:53] <Mattisse> reviewers don't review [22:54:23] <Mattisse> the Tornadoes damage article is very good and it is well sourced [22:55:54] <MC8> lustre: American Airlines needs local linking and/or added as a cat [22:55:55] <Wikilink2_> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/American_Airlines [22:56:14] Mattisse, one piece of the puzzle you *might* be missing (I'm just guessing here) is how big a task peer-reviewing an article actually is. Everything on all sides kind of revolves around that. [22:56:38] <Mattisse> Some one is finally writing Renowned Indian guru Ṡri Satya Sai Baba, dies aged 84 ⋅ [22:56:40] <Mattisse> I have been looking at that for days. [22:56:51] crap. Forgot about this thing:P [22:57:11] Lustre: I'm reviewing that now. [22:57:20] yay thankssss [22:57:24] Is anyone else reviewing it? If they are, I'll stop, since I just started. [22:57:26] <Mattisse> But reviewing an FAC or GAN is a big job too, bigger than reviewing an article here. [22:57:42] gopher65: don't think so, mikemoral said he would later if no one else did [22:57:48] k [23:01:28] Mattisse: I expect the whole relentless-news-deadlines thing makes a profound difference. [23:02:06] <Mattisse> but wasn't this site successful once? [23:02:27] yeah [23:02:37] last year we had tons of articles published each day [23:02:40] <Mattisse> why? [23:02:50] there was a writing contest--lots of stuff [23:02:57] then users just dropped off the radar [23:03:02] More people, I'd say. [23:03:06] interest declined. [23:03:20] morale declined. [23:03:37] spiraled downward, actually. [23:03:56] <Mattisse> why? [23:04:26] bad morale creates more bad morale. [23:04:42] <Mattisse> most places on the web people are wanting to publish [23:05:11] idk. [23:05:21] this whole irc is depressing me [23:05:39] <Mattisse> me too [23:05:40] this workshop has been super-depressing. [23:06:01] ...which is a morale problem. :-) [23:06:45] Mattisse: are you a reviewer yet? [23:06:48] if not, become one [23:06:54] we need active peeps like you [23:07:03] before you become disillusioned and leave [23:07:05] :D [23:07:30] Well, more probably do what I do [23:07:32] <-- dendodge has left this channel. [23:07:44] <Mattisse> Well, I was turned down. Then I was nominated for check user. So I don't think I want to become one. [23:07:53] Periodically have a week of activity, then stop for a month or two, then have a week of activity. It's a good way to avoid burnout:) [23:07:59] And you don't get bored that way [23:08:13] <Tempodivalse> well, personally i think this site isn't going to be a success unless it radically changes its editing environment [23:08:25] <Tempodivalse> the status quo is not working. that should be painfully obvious by now [23:08:30] Burnout *is* a hazard, with a site this intense. [23:08:33] If everyone did that, we'd have a more steady flow of articles, with two or three people a week writing/reviewing articles, instead of the current bursts of activity [23:08:41] pizero: make the WMF pay us? :P [23:08:46] we need /incentive/ [23:09:10] <Tempodivalse> A few days ago I seriously considered quitting. Sometimes I think I still will ... [23:09:22] <Mattisse> how come people are willing to make hundreds of edits a day on wikipedia for years? [23:09:22] <Tempodivalse> anyways ... too depressing :b [23:09:34] <Tempodivalse> WP is more interesting, probably, and more rewarding [23:09:39] <Tempodivalse> to them [23:09:42] idealism is the incentive. That, and getting one's high-quality articles published. (There's the rub: rewarding low-quality articles does no good.) [23:09:52] <Tempodivalse> idealism isn't realism [23:10:09] No, it's not, and that's why it motivates volunteers. [23:10:31] I've experienced this on multiple projects. [23:10:50] You look into it, discover they're trying to do something impractical, [23:11:22] and think, "wow, these folks are really idealistists; how can I be a part of that?" [23:11:37] <Mattisse> I sill don't understand why there aren't more Nascar types. This is an ideal forum for someone that wants news covered on a particular topic [23:12:21] <Mattisse> look at wikisource. why isn't there burnout there? [23:12:37] No news deadlines. [23:13:24] also, proofreading is easy. [23:13:38] As an alternative to Tempo's sense that things have to change really radically, I think lots of things are somewhat out of whack, and it all adds up. [23:13:40] <Mattisse> the deadlines are a problem. the two to three day thing. it means you have to wait until a topic has been out a few days and try to judge when it is going to go stale. [23:13:52] <Tempodivalse> A project is only as stressful as you think it should be [23:13:56] WP gets more eyes than WN [23:14:01] <Tempodivalse> We don't have to have stress if we don't want to. [23:14:08] Late review has been proposed, repeatedly. [23:14:09] if you think people will appreciate your work more = incentive [23:14:16] <Mattisse> proofreading is the way newbie get into projects [23:14:27] b/c it's easy [23:15:32] <Mattisse> wikisource is harder than here, as it is so relentless technical. [23:15:41] Man Fetchcommons:). You really scoured those articles for info [23:15:42] Heh [23:15:46] hehe. [23:15:54] proofreading is how I got into this project; but there isn't enough scope for it to support the number of new contributors we need to train up. [23:16:05] I like how you put two and two together to come up with some interesting stats, like the "30000 homes still affected out of 47000". Good job. [23:16:26] it speaks volumes about how much a life i have on a saturday night. [23:16:27] errr, residents, not homes [23:16:28] :P [23:17:02] <MC8> saturday night I feel the air is getting hot (like you baby) [23:17:15] <Mattisse> the Tornadoes article is really good. I tried to save it but thankfully Fetchcommons took over. [23:17:24] * MC8 throws that in to make log licensing complicated [23:17:52] Mattisse: "Hard" does not necessarily imply the sort of time-oriented intensity we have here. [23:18:56] <Mattisse> well, if the stress level doesn't work here, then maybe the timeframe thing should be modified [23:19:14] Late review again. Each time it's brought up, [23:19:27] Brian McNeil opposes it. [23:19:37] Not without a rational reason. [23:20:08] His reasoning, as I understand it, is that if you make significant changes after the "freshness horizon", [23:20:17] <Mattisse> a couple of days ago, about six article went stale in one day. No one had reviewed any for several days. [23:20:53] ... you can't be neutral because you know what happened, and you're sliding into encyclopedia territory. [23:20:59] <Mattisse> But "real" news sites do it all the time. [23:21:21] --> Wackywace has joined this channel (~Wackywace@5e0c2187.bb.sky.com). [23:21:26] oh yes [23:21:26] <Mattisse> But the first info out is often wrong. [23:21:31] We NNEEEEED an udpate system [23:21:42] it can be as easy as renaming to "UPDATE: [title]" [23:22:13] Update is good too, but we can already do that, sort of, can't we? [23:22:21] <Mattisse> sometimes just after an article is published, the news actually gets covered but TOO LATE [23:22:41] Late review is about not slapping down newbies because they didn't get the article in shape fast enough. [23:23:16] <Mattisse> you can just slap UPDATE on an article? [23:23:28] Not exactly, no. [23:23:37] You can write a new article. [23:23:44] You can just update the article directly, as long as it has been less than 24 hours since publication [23:24:11] If it has been longer than that, then it probably warrents a new article in any case. The new article can, however, reuse much of the background material from the old article [23:24:23] except then people have to re-review that old stuff [23:24:29] And since it is using material from a Wikinews article, it can be just cut and paste [23:24:35] Yeah, there is that problem. [23:25:01] If the new story is too different, you may want to make it a separate article even within 24 hours. [23:25:08] <Mattisse> the first news out is usually wire info and copyies of wire info. Then after you write the article, interesting stuff gets published. [23:25:20] What I'd like to see is some stuff on the talk page saying soething like: "only the first 2 paragraphs are new, everything else was copied from the previously reviewed wikinews article". [23:25:27] That way we know what to review [23:25:59] <Mattisse> yes, why is there no "collaboration" on the collaboration page? [23:25:59] CNN does that kind of crap all the time:P [23:26:11] There can be. [23:26:27] (Is *this* being logged?) [23:26:36] doesn't have to be :P [23:26:45] unless MC8 is still puttering away. [23:26:47] <Wackywace> Except last time a breaking article was updated - the sub shooting one - the whole article was essentially "two people were injured; no-one arrested" before an update was slapped on the end without updating theorist of the article saying essentially "one was killed and a sailor has been arrested". It's just embarrassing. [23:26:50] <Mattisse> they all do it - the Guardian, Los Angeles Times etc. [23:27:08] <-- Tempodivalse has left this server (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). [23:27:09] * MC8 is logging, but I'm not planning to add pretty colours again [23:27:14] hm. [23:27:24] why can't we just buy the AP crap, free or not. [23:27:29] then we actually have /stories/ [23:27:31] :P [23:27:48] or like the serbian WN [23:27:55] SR wikinews sucks though:P [23:27:59] Mattisse: That doesn't keep us from aspiring to better. [23:28:00] they have the CC licensing agreement with the beta site [23:28:13] Then we'd just be a mirror site, and I don't see the point to that [23:28:17] meh [23:28:17] <Wackywace> Didn't someone ask the WMF about buying wire articles a while back? [23:28:20] true [23:28:27] Then the 'pedians saying "why does wikinews even exist?" would have a real point. [23:28:34] Wackywace, if they did, there was shit about non-free content. [23:28:50] Because I sure as heck wonder why serbian wikinews exists, since it is just a bot run mirror site. [23:29:06] <Mattisse> I agree. there is too much wire stuff in the news as it is. no point in adding more. [23:30:16] <Mattisse> much of writing an article is figuring out how to reconcile conflicting sources, as the breaking news inevitably is inaccurate. [23:30:38] <MC8> gopher65: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects I dare you [23:30:56] please do [23:31:07] we can watch Brian protest [23:31:12] ;) [23:31:28] ...much of it is, if one already knows some other things that we know but most newbies don't. [23:32:04] I don't like the nasty edge to this workshop. [23:32:39] Nasty edge? [23:32:58] meh. [23:34:07] Serbian wikinews is literally a bot run mirror site. There are 0 articles from wikimedias. All they do is copy content from other sites. That's hardly project worthy of supporting. [23:34:13] <-- Wackywace has left this server (Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi). [23:34:18] And I'm not going to lie and say otherwise just to be PC about it:P. [23:34:26] These workshops always had the potential to be a gathering place for discontent. Basically negative vibes.  They seem to be more prevalent this time around.  Not that some of this hasn't been great constructive stuff. [23:34:44] anywho [23:34:48] i'm off for summer [23:35:02] *** lustre is now known as lustre|afk. [23:35:12] Without dissent leads to discord, and discord leads to discussion, and discussion leads to understanding. [23:35:18] -Without;) [23:35:58] thought you were headed for "leads to the Dark Side". :-) [23:36:01] <lustre|afk> i meant supper [23:36:04] * lustre|afk fails. [23:36:17] And understanding leads to supp... [23:36:19] wait [23:36:22] <lustre|afk> haha [23:39:08] At what point does this "end"? [23:39:10] <Mattisse> it feels like there are parents in the room. can't discuss anything in front of them. [23:39:41] When everyone stops talking [23:39:47] I think I came in when it was already over [23:40:05] What the log is for, maybe. [23:42:22] <MC8> I'll paste the lot again

title: User:Microchip08/Log


text:
Thread:Comments:Petition urges Apple to remove 'anti-gay' app/SUE Exodus International AND Apple/reply (4)

Right. Since you asked, I'm especially fond of the underrated piece Love Child from Accept's legendary Balls to the Wall album. But, I digress...

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
User talk:Bearsaresoft

-- 22:56, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bearsaresoft


text:
User talk:Dickballsmcgee

-- 22:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dickballsmcgee


text:
User talk:Bracton

-- 23:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bracton


text: Talk:Sherpa mountaineer Nawang Gombu, first to summit Mount Everest twice, dies


text: Comments:Sherpa mountaineer Nawang Gombu, first to summit Mount Everest twice, dies


text:
User talk:Jorgewar123

-- 23:25, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jorgewar123


text:
User talk:Pavelin

-- 23:27, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pavelin


text:
User talk:Tbabacar90

-- 23:41, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tbabacar90


text:
User talk:Oren se

-- 23:43, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Oren se


text:
User talk:Embaentropy

-- 23:50, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Embaentropy


text:
User talk:RNTPA

-- 23:53, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:RNTPA


text:
User talk:ThatRandomGuy

-- 00:30, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:ThatRandomGuy


text:
User talk:CrimsQn

-- 01:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:CrimsQn


text:
User talk:Kevinbowen777

-- 01:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kevinbowen777


text: Talk:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84


text: Comments:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84


text:
User talk:Snowcat7

-- 02:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Snowcat7


text:
User talk:PolarYukon

-- 02:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:PolarYukon


text:
User talk:DiasMi012

-- 02:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:DiasMi012


text:
User talk:Joaobsfranco

-- 03:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Joaobsfranco


text:
User talk:Swimming duck 97

-- 03:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Swimming duck 97


text:
User talk:Thesuperrbm

-- 03:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Thesuperrbm


text:
User talk:Honeyman2010

-- 03:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Honeyman2010


text:
User talk:Dvenooker

-- 03:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dvenooker


text:
User talk:Prashant deep singh

-- 04:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Prashant deep singh


text:
User talk:Nvs.hillnaik

-- 04:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nvs.hillnaik


text:
User talk:Torontoairportlimo

-- 04:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Torontoairportlimo


text:
User talk:Arisparis76

-- 04:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Arisparis76


text:
User talk:Tigergranite

-- 05:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tigergranite


text:
Comments:Fireball generated in U.S. laboratory resembles black hole

Comments from feedback form - "also they found out that they ..."
also they found out that they are infact retarded —67.163.95.47 (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


text:
User talk:DennisYin

-- 05:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:DennisYin


text:
Comments:Sydney Opera House listed on World Heritage List

Comments from feedback form - "fair page but why is it a cult..."
fair page but why is it a cultural whs —122.110.94.144 (talk) 06:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Chtototakoe

-- 06:08, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chtototakoe


text:
User talk:Eman chan ongo

-- 06:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Eman chan ongo


text:
User talk:BelloWello

-- 06:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:BelloWello


text:
User talk:Chelladurai~enwikinews

-- 06:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Chelladurai. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Chelladurai~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:29, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chelladurai~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Jackjonathan

-- 07:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jackjonathan


text:
User talk:Neopen

-- 07:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Neopen


text:
User talk:Ihsan404

-- 08:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ihsan404


text:
User talk:Vishalkolar

-- 08:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vishalkolar


text:
User talk:Danusia234

-- 08:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Danusia234


text:
User talk:Jojoboytje

-- 08:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jojoboytje


text:
User talk:Phuocminh27

-- 08:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Phuocminh27


text:
User talk:Cheaptiffany

Hi, please do not place any kind of on our website — it will be  so no one will see it. If you do want to contribute to Wikinews, see the introduction. the wub "?!"  09:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cheaptiffany


text:
Talk:Australian PM Gillard pressured to address human rights crackdown in China

Category and link
edit protected Please add this article to Category:Guangzhou and localize the link of the same name. Green Giant (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * editprotected
 * And please add a period after the Richardson quote. Heavy Water (talk) 00:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. [24Cr][talk] 19:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


text: Comments:Australian PM Gillard pressured to address human rights crackdown in China


text:
User talk:Aqson

-- 08:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Aqson


text:
User talk:Cole The Explorer

-- 08:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cole The Explorer


text:
User talk:Tobias Heintz

-- 08:49, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tobias Heintz


text:
User talk:Spellsinger

-- 08:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Spellsinger


text:
User talk:Rahulbasu16

-- 08:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rahulbasu16


text:
User talk:Seanoleary

-- 09:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Seanoleary


text:
User talk:Pirogovsky85

-- 09:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pirogovsky85


text:
User talk:Sanjaymahara

-- 09:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sanjaymahara


text:
User talk:Xacah~enwikinews

-- 09:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Xacah. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Xacah~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:41, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Xacah~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Danb28

-- 09:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Danb28


text:
User talk:Dhie nil28

-- 10:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dhie nil28


text: User talk:Cheaptiffany13

title: User talk:Cheaptiffany13


text: User talk:Cheaptiffany12

title: User talk:Cheaptiffany12


text: User talk:Cheaptiffany11

title: User talk:Cheaptiffany11


text: User talk:Cheaptiffany14

title: User talk:Cheaptiffany14


text:
Thread:Comments:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84/Comment moved from page header by admin

Please correct: Sachin Tendulkar is still playing. He is not an ex-international test cricketer. He is still playing both tests and one-dayers in world cricket.


text:
Thread:Comments:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84/Comment moved from page header by admin/reply

Correction made, apologies. One of our sources at the time of publishing listed that he was a former international test cricketer, and the information has since been amended by that source also. Sorry :)


text:
User talk:Pushpjeet

-- 10:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pushpjeet


text:
User talk:Sameertheterminator

-- 10:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sameertheterminator


text:
User talk:Astrid~enwikinews

-- 10:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Astrid. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Astrid~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:13, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:28, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Astrid~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Boogeyman6991

-- 11:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Boogeyman6991


text:
Wikinews:UoW 2011 student contributions

= Introduction =

The University of Wollongong's final-year journalism students have, for 2011, been assigned the task of contributing articles to Wikinews. To facilitate outside review, those contributed are broken down by certain diffs on this page.

Published articles

 * 1) * [ Submit to Publish]
 * 2) * [ Publish to Archived]
 * 3) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 4) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 5) * [ Submit to 1st Review diff] Failing review
 * 6) * [ Fail to 2nd Submit diff]
 * 7) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 8) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 9) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 10) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 11) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 12) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 13) * [ Submit to 1st Review diff] Failing review
 * 14) * [ Fail to 2nd Submit diff]
 * 15) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 16) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 17) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 18) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 19) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 20) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 21) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 22) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 23) * [ Submit to 1st Review diff] Failing review
 * 24) * [ Fail to 2nd Submit diff]
 * 25) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 26) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 1) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 2) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 3) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 4) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 5) * [ Submit to 1st Review diff] Failing review
 * 6) * [ Fail to 2nd Submit diff]
 * 7) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 8) * [ Publish to Archived diff]
 * 1) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 2) * [ Publish to Archived diff]

Currently unpublished

 * 1) * [ Submit to 1st failing review] 1st Failing review
 * 1) * [ Submit to 1st failing review] 1st Failing review

Withdrawn, or subject to correction

 * 1) * [ Submit to Publish diff]
 * 2) * [ Published to Misleading diff] article tagged as misleading
 * 3) * [ Misleading to Retracted diff] per discussion on WN:DR, article retracted
 * 4) * [ Retracted to Archived diff]
 * 5) * [ Submit to 1st Review diff] Failing review
 * 6) * [ Fail to 2nd Submit diff]
 * 7) * [ Submit to 2nd Review diff] Failing review
 * 8) * [ Fail to 3rd Submit diff]
 * 9) * [ Submit to 3rd Review diff] Failing review
 * [|Suspected murderer of Russian journalist arrested in Chechnya]
 * 1) * [ Submit to 3rd Review diff] Failing review
 * [|Suspected murderer of Russian journalist arrested in Chechnya]

title: Wikinews:UoW 2011 student contributions


text:
User talk:Todberg

-- 11:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Todberg


text:
User talk:Rohit9verma9

-- 11:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rohit9verma9


text:
User talk:Badlanikaran

-- 11:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Badlanikaran


text:
User talk:Wanasri

-- 12:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wanasri


text:
User talk:Caferoma

-- 12:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Caferoma


text:
User talk:Gizem Güneş

-- 12:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gizem Güneş


text:
User talk:Foufoucas

-- 12:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Foufoucas


text:
User talk:Макс13

-- 12:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Макс13


text:
User talk:Came95

-- 12:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Came95


text:
User talk:Lazer Stein

-- 12:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lazer Stein


text:
User talk:Twitchy5

-- 12:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Twitchy5


text:
User talk:124.185.125.50

 * Your editprotected request has been dealt with. — μchip08 12:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:124.185.125.50


text:
User talk:BigPaw

-- 13:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:BigPaw


text:
Thread:Comments:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84/Comments from feedback form - "sources when alleging of crime..."

sources when alleging of crimes committed by him is not given..


text:
Thread:Comments:Renowned Indian guru Śrī Satya Sai Baba dies aged 84/Comments from feedback form - "sources when alleging of crime..."/reply

Why yes, yes they are.


text:
User talk:Infantryman1-6

-- 13:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Infantryman1-6


text:
User talk:Jaedit

-- 13:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jaedit


text:
User talk:Venkatesh.b2

-- 13:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Venkatesh.b2


text:
User talk:Dcastao

-- 13:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dcastao


text:
User talk:Nikozeu

-- 13:44, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nikozeu


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User talk:Dana boomer

-- 13:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dana boomer


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User talk:Rajthefilmmaker

-- 13:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rajthefilmmaker


text:
User talk:Lunohodzik

-- 14:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lunohodzik


text:
User talk:Dorothée H.

-- 14:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dorothée H.


text:
Thread:Comments:U.S. Coast Guard investigation finds 'poor safety culture' contributed to Deepwater Horizon disaster/Are we surprised?

No, we are not!


text:
User talk:Kittensonf!re

-- 14:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kittensonf!re


text:
User talk:K!ttensonf!re

-- 14:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:K!ttensonf!re


text:
User talk:Ceoleo

-- 14:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ceoleo


text:
User talk:Kalli1987

-- 14:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kalli1987


text:
User talk:189.140.24.110

Our submission guidelines
I'd like to let you know that here at the English Wikinews, we only accept English language news. You've recently made contributions that don't qualify as news. We appreciate your contributions, but we cannot accept the edits you've made, so they have been reverted or deleted.

In the future, if you'd like to submit news, we are more than happy to have your help! Just make sure to check out this article, which talks about what Wikinews is not. As a brief primer, please note that neither editorial content nor opinion pieces qualify as news.

Thank you for your contributions!  Nascar 1996  (talk • contribs) 14:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:189.140.24.110


text:
User talk:Farhandalvi

-- 14:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Farhandalvi


text:
User talk:Yashi Abd Ahm

-- 14:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Yashi Abd Ahm


text:
Template:UoW 2011

University of Wollongong ⁄ Wikinews 2011 Published articles category=UoW 2011 student work category=Published mode=ordered Developing articles category=UoW 2011 student work category=Developing suppresserrors=true category=UoW 2011 student work category=Review suppresserrors=true Problem articles category=UoW 2011 student work category=Disputed suppresserrors=true (more)

title: Template:UoW 2011


text:
User talk:Dnapro

-- 14:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dnapro


text:
User talk:Алексей В. Васильев

-- 15:16, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Алексей В. Васильев


text:
User talk:Zoraida Silva de Pantin

-- 15:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Zoraida Silva de Pantin


text:
User talk:Malagawiki

-- 15:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Malagawiki


text:
User talk:Umburana

-- 15:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Umburana


text:
User talk:Jonathan haviv

-- 15:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jonathan haviv


text:
User talk:Clinton.bow

-- 15:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Clinton.bow


text:
User talk:Saturnus 198

-- 15:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Saturnus 198


text:
User talk:Wayfield2012

-- 15:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wayfield2012


text:
User talk:Polo87030135

-- 16:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Polo87030135


text:
User talk:800mag

-- 16:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:800mag


text:
Thread:Comments:U.S. Coast Guard investigation finds 'poor safety culture' contributed to Deepwater Horizon disaster/Comments from feedback form - "What a gift to the legal indus..."

What a gift to the legal industry; it will enjoy work for at least 50 years.


text:
User talk:Hwak36

-- 16:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hwak36


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User talk:Lenok1012

-- 16:20, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lenok1012


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User talk:Sambacor Teuw

-- 16:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sambacor Teuw


text:
User talk:Lythgor

-- 16:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lythgor


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User talk:VsSerg

-- 16:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:VsSerg


text:
User talk:Roblunski

-- 16:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Roblunski


text:
User talk:Anmolp2010

-- 16:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Anmolp2010


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User talk:M.Nurullah

-- 16:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:M.Nurullah


text:
Thread:Comments:France first to enforce burqa ban/Good!/reply (10)

Sorry I can't find any order there to either convert or kill nonbelievers.


text:
Thread:Comments:France first to enforce burqa ban/Good!/reply (11)

But thanks for the link.


text:
User talk:Kathiet

-- 17:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kathiet


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User talk:Lomana lua lua

-- 17:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lomana lua lua


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User talk:Money20

-- 17:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Money20


text: Thread:Comments:Murderer of road accident victim sentenced to death/Comments from feedback form - ":)"


text:
User talk:Wiki123~enwikinews

-- 17:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Wiki123. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Wiki123~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wiki123~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Booyahhayoob

-- 17:53, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Booyahhayoob


text:
User talk:Aruenr

-- 17:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Aruenr


text:
Thread:Comments:Former Australian athlete jailed for eighteen years for murdering her baby/Comments from feedback form - "this is very stupid a mother k..."

this is very stupid a mother killing her own baby who would do that except her????? :(


text:
User talk:Venkatraonannaka

-- 18:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Venkatraonannaka


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User talk:Rezabeglou

-- 18:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rezabeglou


text: Template:Guantanamonumbers

title: Template:Guantanamonumbers


text:
User talk:Sparkycola12

-- 18:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sparkycola12


text:
User talk:Vision8~enwikinews

-- 18:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Vision8. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Vision8~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vision8~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Astilava

-- 18:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Astilava


text:
User talk:Zpanos

-- 18:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Zpanos


text:
User talk:Manipedia25

-- 18:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Manipedia25


text:
User talk:G-rob XD

-- 18:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:G-rob XD


text:
User talk:Cristhian alejandro grajales

-- 19:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cristhian alejandro grajales


text:
User talk:Creditscardfor

-- 19:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Creditscardfor


text:
Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (4)

What just like dickhead evangelical pastors and rednecks will hate me for being gay or black. Wake up mate, its no secret that a significant proportion of muslims are violent - its not a conclusion that you've come to and its just that people like me just arent listening. But I also know from experience that not every single muslim is a flag burning, shoe throwing, machete yielding murderer.

Ignorance breeds fear and hatred can you not see that by your ignorance you are no better than violent Muslims. You're both pig-headed and will not agree, which I guess I'll have to live with since there are so many like you, but keep it the fuck to yourself don't try to shove ur ill informed off the cuff anus gas in my face coz u don't have the wits about you.


text:
User talk:Muff cabbage

-- 19:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Muff cabbage


text:
User talk:Kringrover

-- 19:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kringrover


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User talk:KatjaKocmur

-- 20:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:KatjaKocmur


text:
User talk:Jasongar

-- 20:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jasongar


text:
User talk:Black goose

-- 20:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Black goose


text:
User talk:Extranoname

-- 20:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Extranoname


text:
User talk:Max-78

-- 20:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Max-78


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User talk:FONTENELE SILVA FRANCINALDO

-- 20:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:FONTENELE SILVA FRANCINALDO


text:
User talk:Tickle me gusta

-- 20:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tickle me gusta


text:
User talk:Lea valeriani

-- 20:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lea valeriani


text:
User talk:KazeOnna

-- 20:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:KazeOnna


text:
User talk:符龙彬

-- 20:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:符龙彬


text:
User:Wackslas/Gossip column

Hello. Welcome to the Gossip column. The latest gossip around the UK. Bosnia banned from FIFA. The FA Survey helps improve English football. Manchester City quite lucky for the FA Cup final spot. London 2011 Champions League final to do England proud. Former Portsmouth and Inter midfielder Sulley Muntari having a terrible time at Sunderland. Asamoah Gyan's wonder goal against England was an 'absolute stunner.' David James considered way better than Robert Green. Arsenal's six year wait for a trophy has to end, according to manager Arsene Wenger. And Finally, Portsmouth fans keep their fingers crossed to hope that Southampton don't make automatic promotion from League 1 to meet with Pompey in the Championship.

title: User:Wackslas/Gossip column


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Thread:Comments:All US states could have smoke-free laws by 2020/'liberty'

"Gary Nolan of the Smokers Club, a smoker's rights group, said, "It wouldn't surprise me if they prevailed." He noted that heavy pressure is being applied to bars and restaurants by public health officials to ban smoking. "It's just a little bit more liberty slipping away at the hands of big government.""

Right, your liberty being that to damage other people's lives as well as your own. If you stab yourself and me on the same day, and you die of complications 10 years from then, while I die of complications 20 years from then, it's still murder, isn't it? I'm still waiting for tobacco to be declared a chemical weapon of mass destruction. I guess it just doesn't kill fast enough, but then half of the reasons for banning atomic bombs would be gone. Or maybe it's because it wasn't designed to kill. Perhaps if mustard gas had been discovered while someone was researching anesthetics, it wouldn't be classified as a chemical weapon? 66.154.183.15 (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)


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User talk:Du4ed

-- 21:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Du4ed


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User talk:Romina av

-- 21:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Romina av


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User talk:Helena manzan

-- 21:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Helena manzan


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User talk:Purekozmo

-- 21:19, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Purekozmo


text:
User talk:Tttybhgf

-- 21:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tttybhgf


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User talk:Ozipperblueo

-- 21:29, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ozipperblueo


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User talk:Ajjaeger

-- 21:39, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ajjaeger


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User talk:Enux

-- 21:57, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Enux


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User talk:Karolecuador

-- 22:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Karolecuador


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User talk:EEMIV

-- 22:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:EEMIV


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User talk:The master of god

-- 22:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:The master of god


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User talk:Ganzi321

-- 22:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ganzi321


text: User talk:83.113.231.129

title: User talk:83.113.231.129


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User talk:Lynkynpark86

-- 23:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lynkynpark86


text:
User talk:Playah1

-- 23:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Playah1


text:
User talk:T.L.CARDENAS

-- 23:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:T.L.CARDENAS


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User talk:Mosesdprasad~enwikinews

-- 23:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Mosesdprasad. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Mosesdprasad~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:22, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mosesdprasad~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Anand1747

-- 00:01, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Anand1747


text:
User talk:Stuartbeards

-- 00:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Stuartbeards


text:
User talk:Vanessa635241

-- 00:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vanessa635241


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User talk:Gavidary

-- 00:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gavidary


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User talk:Sifler

-- 00:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sifler


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User talk:Wilbersson

-- 00:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wilbersson


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User talk:Caamal

-- 00:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Caamal


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User talk:C.chi.han

-- 00:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:C.chi.han


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User talk:Dpattiris

-- 01:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dpattiris


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User talk:Zr200

-- 01:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Zr200


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Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (5)

Since some of these people demand a capitol offense for blasphemy against Islam, am I also going to be held against merely saying something that they will take murderous offense to? How much more of this nonsense are we going to put up with? If I decide to burn a book and they decide to kill over it, I won't lose one second of sleep for their crimes. I have no respect for their religion any more. There was a time when I thought nothing of Islam. Now it's a different story. It WILL get to a point when they will be so pissed at Americans, even Muslim Americans, for the tiniest piece of nonsense that they will kill more people. Heck, after this one book burning, they called for Obama's assassination, Obama who spoke out against the burning! People in Pakistan were chanting, "Death to America! Death to Israel!" And all that for what this one man did.

edit: not intended as a reply to any specific comment here.


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User:Dpattiris

Dpattiris is a nobody on WikiNews. Hello, nobodies!

title: User:Dpattiris


text:
User talk:Catouse

-- 01:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Catouse


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User talk:Lalin2301

-- 01:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lalin2301


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User talk:Guardor

-- 01:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Guardor


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User talk:Fjxyyz

-- 01:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Fjxyyz


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User talk:Steffen.kildal

-- 02:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Steffen.kildal


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User talk:Edgarveras

-- 02:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Edgarveras


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User talk:Samfrancisco

-- 02:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Samfrancisco


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User talk:Oatleyt

-- 03:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Oatleyt


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User talk:D mr.john

-- 03:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:D mr.john


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User talk:Iamroberts

-- 03:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Iamroberts


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User talk:Honorprevails123

-- 04:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Honorprevails123


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User talk:Leichon

-- 04:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Leichon


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User talk:Dmitri 11

-- 04:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dmitri 11


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User talk:Valay.churi

-- 05:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Valay.churi


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User talk:Gloomya

-- 06:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gloomya


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User talk:Frnajib

-- 06:45, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Frnajib


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User talk:PeriPerry

-- 07:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:PeriPerry


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User talk:Oftenhahn

-- 07:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Oftenhahn


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User talk:Kuroavatar

-- 07:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kuroavatar


text:
Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (6)

A couple of issues here. It wasn't just 'any book'. As an atheist and somebody who has had the luck to be born and grow up in a comfortanble affluent environment; to me it is just a book but to many people living in more poverty stricken countries their religion is all they have. I suppose much akin to the less affluent parts of the US being more openly and devoutly christian or evangelical.

They are also less educated and more susceptible to hear-say, which brings me on to my second point; the media will only report the crowds of people burning American flags or chanting about death and jihad - this is all that your western eyes see. Much like a lot of all they see and are told is Western Jets and soldiers invading muslim countries. They may percieve it as an attack on their religion.

Nobody is denying that many many many attrocities have been committed in the name of Islam over the past decade but you must try to see a bigger picture or risk being as ignorant as those extremists are, and do not pretend that none have been made by the West at any point in history because you will find yourself sorely mistaken. They likely see the US as a Christian force attempting to oppress or exterminate them just as much as you think all Islam is an evil plot that does not deserve a place on the planet.


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User talk:Coldman1910

-- 07:58, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Coldman1910


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User talk:Diyako2000

-- 08:00, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Diyako2000


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User talk:Publius-erfurt

-- 08:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Publius-erfurt


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User talk:TamaraElbaz

-- 08:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:TamaraElbaz


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User talk:Abai4ik

-- 08:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Abai4ik


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User talk:Fionayo

-- 08:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Fionayo


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User talk:Raghith

-- 08:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Raghith


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User talk:Fernando432

-- 09:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Fernando432


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User talk:Ashke ashegh 206

-- 09:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ashke ashegh 206


text: Template:User ml

title: Template:User ml


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User:Raghith

I am Raghith.

title: User:Raghith


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User talk:LoLegion

-- 09:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:LoLegion


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User talk:Aden soma

-- 09:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Aden soma


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User talk:Margherita Minervini

-- 09:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Margherita Minervini


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User talk:Lravine

-- 09:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lravine


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Category:User ml

People who speak Malayalam (മലയാളം).

title: Category:User ml


text: Category:User ml-N

title: Category:User ml-N


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User talk:IMC&OT

-- 09:46, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Copyright warning
 wacky wace  10:13, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Blocked
 wacky wace  10:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:IMC&OT


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User talk:Sampa1974

-- 10:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sampa1974


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User talk:Aladamcom

-- 10:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Aladamcom


text:
Thread:Comments:All US states could have smoke-free laws by 2020/Comments from feedback form - "I totally agree with the CDC i..."

I totally agree with the CDC inasmuch that banning smoking in public places is the only sure way of protecting nonsmokers from secondhand smoke.


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User talk:Tordans

-- 10:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tordans


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User talk:Gygjjjjkh

-- 10:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gygjjjjkh


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User talk:Gagarine

-- 10:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gagarine


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User talk:Pamua

-- 11:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pamua


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User talk:Dobbs

-- 11:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dobbs


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User talk:Dontbesogullible

-- 11:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dontbesogullible


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User talk:Andregoiano

-- 11:49, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Andregoiano


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User talk:Deviceva

-- 11:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Deviceva


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User talk:Hpahlev

-- 12:06, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hpahlev


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User talk:MaxStieger

-- 12:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:MaxStieger


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User talk:Magerblata

-- 12:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Magerblata


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User talk:Nate76

-- 12:21, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nate76


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User talk:Compositore92

-- 12:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Compositore92


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User talk:Marco.gatti2

-- 12:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Marco.gatti2


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User talk:Kavin3243

-- 12:33, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kavin3243


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User talk:Ebugosi fabian

-- 12:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ebugosi fabian


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User talk:תומר פרסיקו

-- 12:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:תומר פרסיקו


text:
User talk:HARIOM

-- 12:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:HARIOM


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User talk:ARK995

-- 12:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:ARK995


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User talk:Sanjith2304

-- 13:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sanjith2304


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User talk:Javierlayus

-- 13:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Javierlayus


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User talk:Jorgeburatti

-- 13:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jorgeburatti


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User talk:Bnrus

-- 13:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bnrus


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User talk:Matthew199726

-- 13:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Matthew199726


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User talk:Rsarlo

-- 13:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rsarlo


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User talk:Pandalore

-- 13:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pandalore


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User talk:Geomares

-- 13:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Geomares


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User talk:Piotrek0419

-- 13:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Piotrek0419


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User talk:Johncalvos

-- 13:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Johncalvos


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User talk:Harishwer

-- 13:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Harishwer


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Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (7)

I'm no better than ignorant muslims? Well I assure you that I never blew myself up with other people, I never stoned a woman for being raped, I never walked around calling for the killing of jews because they are jews, I never flew a plane into a building filled with people, I never slaughtered Christians because a priest burned a book.

Did you know also that not every nazi killed jews. Hey but the media only shows the concentration camps and ditches filled with corpses right? Yet we had to stop nazism, because even though not every nazi killed jews they were part of a community where killing jews was the norm. Same thing with islam; we have to stop it because even though, as you say, "not every single muslim is a flag burning, shoe throwing, machete yielding murderer" they are part of a religion where flag burning, shoe throwing, and murder are encouraged. Encouraged against us, and ignoring the problem wont make it go away.


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Thread:Comments:France first to enforce burqa ban/Good!/reply (12)

Maybe the link is not working. It says "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day"


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User talk:Newwestwikiuser

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User talk:Gofalcons13

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title: User talk:Gofalcons13


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Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (8)

Terrorists are not true Muslims. Also, there are plenty of Christian terrorist groups, perhaps most notably the National Liberation Front of Tripura. It cannot be said that Christian terrorists truly represent Christianity, and neither can it be said that Islamic terrorists truly represent Islam.


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User talk:Georgemendoza

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User talk:Vardantinyan

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User talk:Pkpallai

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User talk:Rcrmgn

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Dingoes attack toddler on Fraser Island

April 27, 2011

A three-year-old girl has been bitten by two while holidaying with her parents on, Queensland, Australia. The two animals responsible for the attack have since been captured and by wildlife rangers.

The child was on the beach with her parents while they waited to be transported to the mainland on the barge. Witnesses report that the child wandered into nearby sand dunes where she was repeatedly bitten on the legs by the wild dogs.

Members of the Fraser Island Preservation group believe that the parents are to blame for the attack. Spokeswoman Bree Jashin has stated the attack was the result of inattentiveness. “The child was unsupervised and you have to ask how could a three-year-old get so close to the dingoes?”

Experts such as Environmental Department manager Terry Harper say the attack is uncharacteristic for the dingoes on Fraser Island which is said to be one of the last remaining safe havens for purebred dingoes. "This is a very timely reminder for everybody about how important it is to stay very close to your children on Fraser Island," Harper stated. "Adults should always stay very close to their children. We know that they do excite dingoes."

The child received medical attention at the site of the attack and was then transported to Gympie Hospital.

title: Dingoes attack toddler on Fraser Island


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User talk:In dubio pro dubio

-- 15:02, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:In dubio pro dubio


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User talk:Firepits

-- 15:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Warning
 wacky wace  15:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

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User talk:Evy05

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User talk:Arxatiri

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User talk:Kemosirix

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Thread:Comments:Qur'an-burning pastor jailed after mosque protest barred/Comments from feedback form - "With so much at stake & everyt..."/reply (9)

I'd be careful with using a Nazi analogy because it may just reinforce my point that these problems are exacerbated by countries such as the US, UK and France. The cruel punishments enforced against Germany arguably nutured conditions under which Naziism could breed - I could equally say that the foreign policy of the US and UK are doing the same for muslim fundamentalism.

Nobody is attempting to be an apologiser for the terrible things that have been committed under the name of Islam.

But what is your solution? If we were to assume that all of Islam was dangerous to western perception of how a life should be lead, what should we do about it? Kill every single muslim in the world? good fucking luck, we can't stabilise one country in a decade its not going to be possible to exterminate half the planets population. I think you need to realise that most people dont fly planes in to buildings or blow themselves up - muslim, christian or otherwise. But the approach of the US - be democratic and like us or else is not helping matters.


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User talk:LukasCach

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User talk:FundacionBarreiro

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User talk:Casualnudism

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User talk:OOoStephenoOo

-- 16:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

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User talk:Rigelshacker

-- 16:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rigelshacker