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Talk:Saddam Hussein profited roughly 1B by taking funds from UN program

Edit news much?
Although on-line doesn't have the same length and space limitations as print, you should still write concisely and clearly. Comments inline.

Try this:

Saddam Hussein diverted millions of dollars from the United Nations oil-for-food program to families of suicide bombers from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, investigators claim. [Shorter lede, using active voice, important developments first. The bits about the bombing victims do not belong in the lede, or this brief. On what evidence does Volcker make this claim?]

Paul Volcker, a former American official investigating the diverted funds scandal, has taken [no need for "some"] heat from advocates [who?, when?] demanding that he haul United Nations personnel before the US Congress. Volcker claims that such open scrutiny could discourage them from cooperating with the investigation at all. He plans to release documentary evidence early next year, when his investigation is complete.

Magic5ball 05:32, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I feel like this title is wrong
It seems to be grammatically incorrect. Shouldn't it be something like "Saddam Hussein profited roughly 1B with illicit UN program"? Also, it says "illicit UN program" which seems to be very POV- perhaps funds from mishandling of the program? "Saddam Hussein profited roughly 1B by taking funds from UN program"? Lyellin 00:26, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you.--carlosar Nov 23 00:49:07 UTC 2004


text:
President of Brazil meets President of Russia

The president of Brazil, Mr. Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, met with the president of Russia, Mr. Vladimir Putin, at about 12:00 in.

The main discussion topics were the end of the embargo on the exportation of Brazilian meats, from animals such as bovines and pigs, to Russia and the interest of the Russian government in conquering the support of Brazil to enter the World Trade Organization.

Lula said Brazil will support Russia to enter the World Trade Organization, but Russia did not agree with the end of the embargo of Brazilian meat. Russia has forbidden the entrance of Brazilian meat in their country because there was a suspection of Brazilian cattle contamination by aftosa fever. Brazilian authorities said there is no danger and the cattle's health has been monitored. By another agreement Brazil will teach the Russians techniques of soccer and the Russians go to repass techniques of athletism and swimming.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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User:Rdsmith4

→ m:User:Rdsmith4

title: User:Rdsmith4


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User:Neutrality~enwikinews

Hello. en:User:Neutrality

title: User:Neutrality~enwikinews


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Wikinews talk:Review process poll

My comment's on Jimbo's opinion:

I personally do not see why you are so critical of the review policy. From your edit on the review policy, you seem to think that Wikinews should actively release stories before they are fully reviewed. But I think the basic idea of "ensure the quality and then publish" was not laid down by Erik here, but discussed at meta with many participants, and supported by the vote as a part of the proposal (If you see the comments, even some supporters do worry about NPOV, for example).

The suggestion of not listing unreviewed article from main page is not that surprising given that basic idea laid down earlier.

But after reading your edit, I think it has a merit because actively featuring unpolished stories would involve more people to participate in publishing and reviewing boldly, and it would not tarnish Wikinews' or Wikimedia's general reputation which the review process is supposed to protect. We can try to pursue that direction, but that means we go differently from not only Erik's proposal, but also the proposal that people voted for.

In short, I am not against the change suggested by Jimbo, but I don't think it's Erik's idea or developed un-wiki-ly. And you can simply say, "hey, here is a better idea, why don't we try this?"

Tomos 03:41, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We need to get going on this
So far, this vote seems to be a deadlock. The general view I've read is that we won't be going out of demo till we manage to solve this issue (correct me if I'm wrong...*shrugs). As such, we really need to start proposing alternate ideas, or combining the two, or SOMETHING. Let's get out of demo, and start advertising and really get this project off the ground! Lyellin 23:06, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see no unreviewed flag
A newcomer brought here by a link in Wired online. The discussion centers on whether to allow unreivewed news to appear on the front page. Most seem to believe that if that is the case, then a flag should appear in both the listing and the article which proclaims the fact it is unreviewed. I see no such flag. Is one intended? Even worse, is one there and I just don't see it?

 * I believe that the intent is that once a policy is decided on, that flag will appear and be made. As far as I know, no such flag or tag or template has been made. Lyellin 00:59, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This poll is abandoned
This is because the review process, which this poll was about, has been scrapped with community consensus. Dan100 (Talk) 11:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

title: Wikinews talk:Review process poll


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User:AaronSw

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title: User:AaronSw


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User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 1

Misc
 If you are here to request administrator action, dispute resolution, or you have a question: Feel free to ask any one of the active administrators listed on Administrators, or post a request on Admin action alerts. For dispute resolution, see Dispute resolution.

WikiVoices #51
I'm here for that. Yay. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Flagged Revisions
I tried to read through the full discussion on your enWP talk page; it mostly reminded me why I dislike The Other Place - you're talked to death before any work gets done. The one, perhaps non-obvious, point I vehemently agree with is that the WMF needs to take a much more active role as toolmakers.

I'll bug a couple of local people for info on what Huggle is; it seems there is a huge focus on RC patrol and vandalism reversion. On the flip-side, deWP have shown that being unable to admire your handiwork makes IP vandals walk away. That is a definite win. If not already in place, here's an initial point that might gain a percent or two more support:
 * If an IP edits a page marked with Flagged Revs they're invited to register, or sign into their account and claim the edit. Invite them to become a project contributor, establish a reputation, and improve project content.
 * This also solves the headache some contributors have who're paranoid about their IP being visible in logs.

Now, our EzPR gadget is more like what I'd expect on a GA, or FA - in most cases, that'd be using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. The need is for a flexibility to vary between completely open, anyone's edit instantly visible to the world, and a full-blown formal review. We have that headache here too; once an article passes initial EzPR how do we decide if subsequent updates require a full-blown re-review, or simply click 'fine' because it's a grammar or spelling fix?

For us, that'd ideally be getting the diff of an unreviewed change and being able to push it in several possible directions:
 * 1) This is fine, thanks for making that correction.
 * 2) This is nonsense, I've reverted it.
 * 3) This is unsourced, I'm not sighting it, but it'll be reverted in x hours if it isn't backed up with a source.
 * 4) This is a really substantial change, seemingly within policy, I'm moving to do a review of it, or flagging it for a fellow reviewer who has more time.

I was also highly amused that you snagged one of my troubleshooter catchphrases; "what is the problem you are trying to solve?" That is usually reserved for utterly non-technical people who've been telling me, "make simple change x" which is, in reality, 2-3 man-years of development. [Example: I once had a client ask me to change an ERP system to include the last 2 digits of the year as a prefix in invoice numbers. The problem he wished to solve was starting invoice numbering from 1 every financial year. Archiving all invoices at year-end was unacceptable to him, and he was adamant,... Until after 3 days analysis I listed 500+ programs needing changed to accomodate him. You can imagine what that would've cost; he quickly settled for a tweak to a half-dozen programs to display and print numbers with a year prefix.]

Now, anecdote out the way, can you precis what the nay-sayers to Flagged Revs in The Other Place have? Ignore those utterly ideologically opposed to it, those you think would never accept any type of implementation. What, as bullet points, are the primary gripes? --Brian McNeil / talk 23:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

RfdR
Flagged_revisions/Requests_for_permissions — μ 09:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Flagged revisions/Requests for permissions
Hi Jimbo. Your last edit to the above appears to have been made to an old revision by mistake, accidentally cutting out a lot of comments posted since. I'd fix it myself, but I'm preoccupied in mainspace right now. Blood Red Sandman (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Edgar181 (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Accidental removal of other editors' comments?
= was this an accidental removal of other editors' comments? -- Cirt (talk) 20:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes. I'll fix it now, if it hasn't been fixed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Apologies
I apologize for this. I felt you were trying to ... have some special treatment for being... dunno, the founder of Wikimedia or something like that. I'm really sorry. Diego Grez return fire 01:21, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Reviewer, trust versus knowledge, and seeing eye-to-eye
Jimbo,

Regardless of what problems there have previously been on Wikinews, I do feel that this is actually a communications failure and not hostility. I'm hoping here to salvage things before both sides get permanently wrong views of what the other side was up to.

I'm pro-inactivity-removal, but not strongly so, and I take the view users should be notified first. That, however, is a general view not really relevant here. Reviewer is a special tool in that mere trust is not sufficient; if it were, I doubt the nomination would be made. Half the problem is I don't think anyone has properly explained to you how we view the tool — partly because it was doled out to you before we properly worked out what we were doing with it and then, frankly, forgotten about.

The present attitude and consensus on Wikinews is that users should first display basic knowledge of our style guide, as well as avoidance of copyvio, factual accuracy and NPOV. In your case, I think the last three can be safely considered things you know already(!) — I'll touch back on that point later.

I think a very fair question from someone not active on Wikinews is "why on Earth would you do that?!" (or less polite versions of the same). That seems to be your view; and why, indeed, do we make users learn first? The reason is that Wikinews has decided to set itself up so that articles have a phenominally high standard before they are published — i.e. no content should go out until everything has been checked out, including news-style. (There is a discussion underway about the future of this model, such as cutting it back or even scrapping it, but for the time being that's how it is.)

So, in this case there's something greater at stake than mere minor security - there's quality. A fundamental difference between WN and almost any other wiki is that elsewhere, no matter how badly you mess something up with literally any tool (except, perhaps, highly specialist things like CU and Oversight) it can be fixed. So don't worry and get stuck in. Because of how we have set ourselves up, once something's out there it's out there. It goes out on Twitter, into Google News etc. We've decided that we want these to be the best we possibly can — a very high ideal (and, as hinted above, one which we may yet abandon). Policy has continued to evolve over the last few years, such that an inactive reviewer could easily miss changing standards — though my opinion is people should be informed of such changes.

So, my interpretation of things is that you've come here thinking of this as a mere trust issue. Coming into it with that attitude - which is a reasonable view for you to take, given a) nobody has ever properly explained things to you b) every other tool everywhere else is mainly or entirely about trust — then cutting out inactive peoples looks hostile. Your responses then in turn wrongly appear hostile to the community and Bad Things happen needlessly. Oh, which reminds me: it's strongly implied by my other comments there, but I am satisfied you meant no 'emotional blackmail'; I withdraw that. It seems I too have contributed to the communications breakdown.

One thing that has not helped is that you've been nommed individually when in fact there are a number of users it could have been; and that discussion on what our policy should be has only happened after the nom — perhaps not the best judgement (ah, the pleasures of retrospective thought). That comes accross as targetting you — I genuinely believe it was never specifically about you.

Part of my reason for writing all this is that you and I are actually in-tune in our lines of thought. While we can't hand bits straight out to trustowrthy people from other wikis, like en.wp, it is fair to say that the learning curve for them consists entirely of getting used to two things: The local style guide, and proper verification of Original Reporting. As mentioned above, copyvio, NPOV, proper sourcing &c are hardly new concepts for active Wikimedians. As I've mentioned at the nom, WP admins etc could be informed they'd very quickly be ready for the tool.

I also like the mention you made on Diego's talk — " wonder if you'd like to come on IRC sometime and get a tutorial and see what we're doing with it..." — spot on. The other night, following on from this, I'd wondered about forming ourselves some sort of crash course to quickly work experienced Wikimedians into reviewers. I'd been thinking text-based on-wiki, but informal IRC-work also sounds good to me.

These are exciting ideas, though pace is currently so slow I worry about getting them to stay. In any event, I'd love to see how present discussions on our future go and how they might impact active recruitment of established people from The Other Place.

In closing, I thank you for reading this massive spiel — in particular since writing it has left me with no stamina for the daunting task of proofreading what I just wrote, which probably means it's Pleonasm Central - a small breakaway dictatorship with it's capital city on Mt. Typo (elevation: over 9,000 ft). So well done on getting through it. I hope this goes some way to clearing things up and to making clear what should have been explained long ago - and I also look forward to seeing what comes from the positives generated tangentially to all the arguments. Blood Red Sandman (Talk)   (Contribs) 14:28, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is still 100% a trust issue. All you need is a notice in the right place to tell trusted users the steps, and to please not review something if they aren't sure of the steps.  And if they do it anyway, non maliciously, you just thank them for the effort, fix what needs fixing, and give them some tips for next time.
 * Anything that is not irreversible, anything that is fixable with minimal effort, ought to be available to as many people as possible. That's what makes wikis work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Publishing to Google News is not reversible. The review process uses various gadgets to automate doing so; someone with the relevant right can do so with about a half-dozen mouseclicks. Within the last week, several UK papers have been found guilty of contempt of court for use of an inappropriate photo which appeared online for less than an hour. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:38, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. We don't want our editors in court. Further, publish is neither reversible nor fixable with any amount of effort. It's done, we've published something, and the best we can do if needed is issue a notice in its place that the article content has been withdrawn. Englsih libel law is infamous and iirc Carter-Fuck have rulings which make the entire Internet fair game before a British court (they've certainly tried it); meanwhile, libel is a criminal offence in Italy and the European Arrest Warrant lurks in the shadows. As Amanda Knox will tell you, there's only one verdict when foreigners are prominantly tried over there - and I'll take my chances with an extradtion request on that one. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 17:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The legal argument is not compelling at all; you might as well argue against open editing altogether. There is no particular reason to suppose that Wikinews editors are at any more risk than editors at any of our projects, and a fair amount of reason to suppose that they are at less risk, since Wikinews is not nearly as popular as Wikipedia.  Additionally, we are talking about the right as extended to known members of the wider community - me for example, or Wikipedia administators - all of whom can be trusted not to go through a process with a half-dozen mouseclicks (with suitable warnings along the way about what is about to happen) and publish something without first learning what to do.
 * I can't think of any reason why Wikinews should subject itself to more stringent fears about libel than any other Wikimedia project. Individual contributors who do the wrong thing are always at risk in any project.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * While I entirely agree with you, Jimbo, about the legal paranoia, there is a fundamental difference between en.WN articles and en.WP articles: en.WN articles have a very limited time to get it right, after which the article is frozen and never substantively changed even where the published article is wrong. To exemplify this, see Category:Corrected articles. In some respects publishing en.WN articles without knowing or caring about our publishing policies would be like arbitrarily deleting articles on en.WP without knowing w:WP:PROD - it would piss off the locals, and shows a serious lack of civility. Yes, en.WN is tiny compared to en.WP (I've suggested it be closed), but it is no less, and no more, territorial than its bigger sister. -  Amgine | t 17:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Now, Amgine, I prefer 'cynicism' to 'paranoia'. At any rate, I'm not going to cary on with this conversation; I've done what I set out to do - explain. This is morphing into a debate on the wider model currently employed on Wikinews - which is fine, but we've already got one of those and I'd rather have the discussion there, and not on any individual's talkpage. For your benefit specifically, Jimbo, lest you are unaware: I'm pointing at Water cooler/policy when I say that. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 17:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I was on vacation when it happened, so I hope you'll all forgive me;).

 * There are a few reasons why reviewer isn't handed out to every admin from every project Jimbo, and, contrary to what some people here have been denying, trust is indeed part of the reason. Here's an incomplete list:

 * 1) Every project has different standards for raising someone to admin. On some projects (en.wikipedia), the standards are high (waaaaay too high). On others (such as the Strategic Planning wiki or Arabic Wikinews, when those projects were active) the standards are low enough that essentially anyone could become an admin simply by asking politely. Those projects don't meet our standards.

 * 2) Due to the inherent nature of the reviewer flag and the powers it grants, people with it have the potential to cause just as much harm to the project as people with an admin flag on en.wikipedia. Does the fact that I'm an admin on this wiki and a bureaucrat on another mean that I automatically get an admin flag on en.wikipedia? No. Should it? No. Just because I'm an admin here doesn't mean I understand all the relevant policies (and project needs!) on the various wikipedias. The same principle applies here. I don't see how you can ask us to allow Wikipedians full access to a fundamental process on Wikinews that they don't understand (it takes most people a week or three to pick it up... there is quite a bit to learn), while you would never consider asking them to extend the same (unnecessary, counterproductive) courtesy to us.

 * 3) Right now en.wikinews is listed on Google News... barely. We had to fight with them to get listed, and we had to make significant concessions (implement flagged revisions, implement a mandatory peer review process, and, using those two systems, implement a "trusted editors" program). It took a long time, and it was a lot of work. What you're suggesting would open us up to getting delisted. (Of course, Google News is perfectly willing to list conspiracy theorist blogs, and random rambles from any idiot with a press badge and web access with No Questions Asked. Personally I think they have something against wikis, which ticks me off >:(. )

 * All that said, I agree with you that we should be trying (harder) to recruit admins from other projects. In spite of the reservations about their lack of knowledge about our necessary practises, they're by-and-large a more trustworthy and knowledgeable group than any random person who we recruit off the 'tubes. We just shouldn't give them a reviewer flag *immediately*. After three weeks of contributions with no significant problems? Sure, why not. No reason not to at that point. Furthermore we should be trying to partner up with journalism schools, getting students to write articles for us. Unfortunately that latter is easier said than done. We've made initial inquires, and most journalism profs seem to be firmly stuck in the mid-20th century:(. Gopher65talk 16:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion migration
I copied your comments to Microchip08 to the ongoing WC discussion, and responded to them there. I hope you don't mind. -  Amgine | t 21:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

privs
'''Note! Your privileges on English Wikinews have been reduced.'''
 * Under the Privilege expiry policy (enacted October 13, 2012) the rights held by your user account have been reduced due to inactivity, or lack of privilege use.

 * The privilege reduction is in no way intended as a reflection on your past work, or to imply you are unwelcome. The aim in curtailing privileges is to address security risks, and concern that a long period of inactivity means you may not be up-to-date with current policy and practices.

--Pi zero (talk) 00:39, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Quality of today's journalism
Hi Wikinewsies. Best to talk to me at en.wikipedia, I don't check my userpage here often.

That was December 25, 2007, Jimmy. The below was your initial promise to the project; so, I really am unhappy you're being critical of Jason's sporadic editing via twitter.

You are going to see me here and editing far more than you're used to seeing me on Wikipedia, at least in these very early days, because I want to really deeply understand issues that arise. My edits to articles should be treated no differently than anyone else's, of course. :-) Jimbo Wales 12:58, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've not had time to watch your Wikimania keynote - which tends to end-up the case if you end up doing 50+ hours per-week, as one of only two product specialists in the UK (the other here on a visa); and, working on the early days of a five-million pound contract.

All I can comment on there, would be your 'reported concerns' over technical cluelessness amongst the mainstream press. Those, as reported by the Wall Street Journal, told me one thing; you likely never glance beyond the front page of the project.

Take a look at our Featured Articles; read the Water Cooler; and — this is the important bit — if you think we don't know how to do journalism properly, you are quite mistaken. I do the 'hardcore tech reporting, a 'touch' of GLAM; and, the odd "political" piece where I hold "strong opinions". I even have an open invite for tea, with - which I am most-welcome to cart my recording kit along to.

The world's hardest-working Wikinewsie? That'd be this guy, not me.

Meet our Iain, who covers disasters when not swamped with his studies. Or, does his homework so well, he's mistaken for someone highly-qualified in the field he chose, at that time, to report upon. You already know Laura Hale, she's a quite prolific contributor who did the sensible thing. She read all the policies, and listened to feedback on her efforts to contribute.

Journalism is a craft, not a trade. Absolutely every single dedicated contributor to this project would agree wholeheartedly with the remarks you made, in a WikiVoices session, when questioning the possible lift of the "Balloon Boy Drama".

We've had several semesters of university students assigned to contribute to the project; and, it has opened the eyes of those prepared to accept Wikinewsies know "The Craft".

The problem? The one we've not worked out — yet — is retaining them until we trust them to review the work of others.

Your page has been reverted many, many, times to a "please dial for Jimbo Wales". I would ask one of my fellow Wikinewsies to pick up where I'm leaving off. That, since I'm getting picked up and taken to the airport in under an hour.

Ask people in Wikimedia UK about what else I'm trying to make happen; but, bear in mind that the absolute last thing Wikinews needs is a huge influx of new contributors who are not prepared to concede mainstream media has probably, and in a quite fundamental manner, corrupted their ability to simply 'read' the news. Even, sadly, encyclopaedists.

Our critics within the WMF movement would have you believe we're "useless" because we've not built the same sausage-making machine as the big wire agencies. That, they fail to see, would be completely and utterly pointless.

Wikinews does need help. But, it needs well-understood first. --Brian McNeil / talk 03:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Before adding a notice on Jimmy's talk page over in The Other Place, I'd like to invite the other, current contributors — or past authors of OR — to counter-sign my remarks; perhaps contributing a few words of their own on where they believe Wikinews needs help. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Supporting Wikinewsies

 * --Gryllida 21:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * News contribution isn't something you do for a couple of minutes in the evening while microwaving a frozen dinner. News writing comes in big increments of labor, ranging up to really big increments of labor for high-end original reporting.  Many of our valued veteran contributors are gone for months at a time; judging who's "active" that way fails to understand the nature of the project.  Just like reporter activity doesn't necessarily create much of a blip in edit count; a big article might be created in one edit, submitted for review in a second edit, and then a reviewer spends twenty edits or so on copyedits during review on a high-quality submission, so that the reviewer comes out of it with ten times the edit count of the reporter.  --Pi zero (talk) 21:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikinews needed to figure out what it could do that was new. Wikipedia was a new concept. Commons was a new concept. A news site isn't. There's lots of news sites, so Wikinews decided to focus intensely on quality. It's a logical expansion on the NPOV policy. That's what everyone here fundamentally believes is worth pursuing: Extremely high standards. Otherwise, we produce something of little value compared to the endless piles of advertising-driven material in national publications. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 21:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

[ restoring Tony's comment to its original position in the thread, after it was moved and placed under an insulting heading by Brian McNeil in this edit, taking Jimbo's comments out of their original context. –Neotarf (talk) 06:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC) ]
 * Sorry, this thread can't go unanswered. The English Wikinews is of such poor quality in nearly every respect that I can't begin to imagine the leap of faith required to accept these claims. [Warning: they really don't like being criticised, but I have steel armour against the torchings. Someone has to speak the truth.] Tony1 (talk) 09:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Brian's hostility is unfortunately all too familiar and, all too familiarly, violates even the most basic standard of decent journalism or decent conversation, and that's to get the simple facts right. "I really am unhappy you're being critical of Jason's sporadic editing via twitter" is to be unhappy about something that is completely and utterly false.  I have not been in any way critical of Jason, nor his sporadic editing here.  I did note it to him, in a private conversation, as a suggestion that he might agree with me that a new approach is worth trying.  As to the rest of Brian's remarks - they are entirely beside the point.  I am well aware of and admire the good work done by good Wikinewsies.  The hostility towards me is entirely unwarranted.

 * One of the things I said to Jason in our private conversation is this: "Imagine if wikinews were your job." Pi zero is right - "News contribution isn't something you do for a couple of minutes in the evening while microwaving a frozen dinner."  It seems abundantly clear to me that to get citizen journalism from where it is today to having hundreds of quality reporters doing good work, is going to require something more and something new.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Jason has it you directly juxtaposed the concept of a new idea with Jason's present inactivity. Given the amount that user has contributed to making WN what it is xe was justifiably upset.
 * Your last para implies you have ideas rumbling around about this much-discussed but rarely-elaborated 'new direction'. Pray tell, I for one am intrigued. Provided they don't sacrifice the high standards we have decided to strive for they may well be of interest to the community. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 11:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not only was there nothing that I said that anyone could possibly be justifiably upset about, there is no evidence that he actually was upset. Indeed, we had a lovely conversation in which he expressed support for new innovations and agreed that maybe we do need a big change.  He can weigh in here and I welcome the publication of our private conversation in full.  The idea that I was somehow nasty to Jason and Brian is taking me to task for it is incorrect.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I said Jason was "unhappy"; largely because he'd bite your fingers off at the armpit if he could work on Wikinews as a full-time job. You made him feel guilty for putting food on the table, and keeping a roof over his head, rather than doing something he loves; was that your intent? No, nor did I think such. If I won the lottery, I'd put him on a living wage, equip him, and ask where in the world he wanted to go and report from. I'd probably strongly disapprove of where he'd pick, because I really do not want to see him killed because of his sexuality.

Anyway, following your keynote, which raised concerns with me that you've been seriously misled about Wikinews, via The Signpost, I thought it would be foolhardy to attempt opening a discussion anywhere else. No hostility intended, criticism of not being "situationally aware", but that all comes down to choice of news sources.

So, please do not mistake brevity — or curt remarks — as someone being actively hostile. As others note, every WMF project has that problem somewhere. I was not being hostile, nor was such my intent. I apologise if this has, ironically, found you feeling a similar 'twinge of guilt' to Jason's.

Here, on Wikinews, people are far, far, less-tolerant because: we do not have time to discuss things to death. For example, when we say "No" to blindly importing "US Government propaganda" (courtesy of ) we have very good reasons for saying that. Searching the WN:WC archives is then left as an exercise for the student.

Importing Serbian-language, US State-Department funded, propaganda has seen srWN shoot past English Wikinews article-count wise, but killed contribution and readership.

And, I state that I intend to ignore Tony1, because xe has yet to offer a single point of constructive criticism. Xe has even edited grammatical errors into our Style Guide! And, xe makes no secret whatsoever that xe is sitting down-under going: "Wikinews! Die! Die! Die!" Why? Because xe wants to replicate the Associated Press' "sausage machine".

Writing for The Signpost doesn't make you a journalist. Never will. Merely a, "Commentator with a Conflict of Interest".

As to my hostility? I was at Wikimania, in 2008, to ask for what Wikinews needed; not only did I feel hugely let-down that I got nods, and naught more; I then returned to Belgium, was rushed to hospital, underwent emergency surgery to remove a blood-clot from upper-right thigh whilst fully conscious. (FYI, I really appreciated the Interflora from the WMF — because my partner left for six weeks in Thailand the day after my operation). Now, fast-forward to when I moved back to Scotland; when at my most-irascible, it just-so happened I was homeless and working my way through that horrific system. Ten Months In Hell. I ended up in hostels that'd seen nothing more than a lick of paint in the last 30-40 years. They were, mostly, owned by a family the local paper once-described as "The modern-day ". I reported ongoing, and pretty damn serious, criminal activity to the police; it was not acted-up in a way that led to any 'real' investigation, the police simply had me moved to another hostel because of death-threats from a couple of junkies (who would've been happier in prison where they could score smack more-easily).

I'm really sorry Tempodivalse got it in the neck; but, he was expecting Wikipedia-style discussion when the Wikinews contributor-pool cannot support that. Whilst homeless, I suffered a when out for a walk with a girlfriend, but I was in a position where English Wikinews would've been the news project that died, not the TOG fork, had the Wikipediaization gone anywhere. AGF, as a perfect example of an utterly inappropriate policy to import, could be wikilawyered into "take, at face value, the lies spewed by some convicted criminal celebrity's publicist." Personally, I really wish more of the fork contributors would come back — we lost some good people there.

I've worked very, very, hard not to go off-the-deep-end at anyone in such a foul-mouthed manner since. But, and this is a big part of the problem, Journalists can't "Assume Good Faith", and trust must be earned.

Now as you know better than most, Jimmy, if you expect hostility, you will automatically see it in critical language where there is no intention to have remarks taken in way.

The precise point in starting this discussion? It rests on one, pretty simple question to yourself:

From the links I provided, and reading some of the highlighted articles: Would you say it appears we know what we're doing?

There's a lot of reading there, and I know you're kept busy, so just try. From the 3rd-hand relaying of what you said in your keynote, I believe it addresses all the hot points you bemoaned. --Brian McNeil / talk 22:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I don't have a log of what Jason told me, but from memory the opening was closely along the lines of "I see you have been inactive for some time. Perhaps you agree a new approach is required." The strong implication in that is Jason isn't editing because he feels the current approach is wrong. I'll go poke User talk:DragonFire1024 and see what comes of it. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 13:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "I see you haven't edited since May. Perhaps you agree with me that a new approach is worth trying." That wasn't an approach but in the midst of a conversation. His response to me was favorable.  He indicated that he hasn't edited because work interferes with his time (a concern that others in this thread on this page have indicated) and I responded "Imagine if wikinews were your job."  He responded very favorably to that and ended up agreeing with me that perhaps a new approach is warranted.  There was no suggestion or indication from him that he was in any way insulted or offended by the conversation.  (And if he was, he would be unreasonable, since if it isn't even possible to talk about new models without offending, then real progress is not possible.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:42, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I see you have elevated 'upset' to 'insulted or offended'. The lack of comment on any of myriad other points raised suggests to me carrying on this conversation is unlikely to be constructive, especially since I'm trying to ease in fairly gently after a yearlong absence of my own (studies, illness). I shall leave it to others to continue if and as they see fit. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 16:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Was I upset? No. Was I Insulted? Maybe just a little bit, but not offended. I guess disappointed is the word I'm looking for. I have gone above and beyond 'writing' news in my time. Whether I'm paid for it or not is no big deal to be, but would be pretty awesome. My disappointment comes because with the contributions I've made, I'm surprised I had gotten the response of "I see you haven't edited since May. Perhaps you agree with me that a new approach is worth trying." As I said before, my real life job stops me from doing the work I love to do: writing OR pieces. I don't have a lot of time to research the items I would love to research. Me not contributing has nothing to do with the way WN or any other project is going. I am not a developer. I am not a technical expert. My main goal on WN has always been reporting the news or writing in depth pieces. So anything relating to the technical aspect of WN is not my cup of tea and often I feel like a deer in headlights. I guess when we had the conversation we had Jimbo, I was hoping you actually had some ideas. At least by the sound of the conversation I thought that's where it was going...but after I replied to you regarding "what if WN was my job..." and I said "I wish it was," the conversation stopped. I am more than willing to brainstorm ideas for WN as best as I can. But it's not a one man job and if anyone has good ideas, they should be presented instead of ignoring it altogether. As I said I write articles and any technical ideas are not my cup of tea. I guess I got excited over nothing. With that said, I would advise anyone who thinks shutting us down is a good idea, to actually take the time and look at our past works and accomplishments. In my opinion, those who have tried to shut us down, have failed to do so.

 * Hostility exists on every WMF project. I would even go as far as saying it is most so on Wikipedia. If anything, the project as a whole has nothing but hatred for us and would rather they be the only project to exist. I will also say, and i have before, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a new site or a blog. I grow tired of hearing the POV pushing signpost bad mouth us and anyone else they can get their hands on. Wikipedia needs to get their priorities straight as an encyclopedia before Wikipedians/Wikimedians decide to take their frustration out on WN...which is almost a constant thing. And maybe they need to practice what they preach such as not using WMF projects for their own personal theater of war. So lets not point fingers at who...because it takes two to tango and Wikipedia is hardly innocent. Writing news isn't something that's easy. If you don't have it in you, then you don't have it. If you aren't willing to follow policies or take criticism, then writing news is not for you. Taking all those things into account, and then some, doesn't mean every contributor on Wikinews is hostile and mean and it certainly doesn't mean the project is a failure. Just because you don't get your way, doesn't make Wikinewsies bad people. DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 18:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Despite the many Wikipedians of good will, it's sadly true Wikipedia has a very unfriendly vein in its atmosphere. I often wish I knew how to help Wikipedia, which was after all my first love amongst wikimedian projects.  Alas, the only measure I've identified that might help if adopted would more likely, if I named it here, be mistaken for trolling (which I fear is already a rampant problem in this thread).  --Pi zero (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I believe this thread lost the thought about something new, and got distracted by Jason things. --Gryllida 21:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Critics with no 'Wikinews track record'
[ I have restored the comment that Brian McNeil "refactored" here with this edit and restored it to its original position in the above thread, to keep Jimbo's comments in their original context.–Neotarf (talk) 06:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC) ]
 * Our interaction ban, Tony1, was over on Wikipedia. I did expect you to comment here, but you're not here to listen — nor have you ever come here willing to do so, and to learn — so, I will ignore you. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ignore me? That would be a gift. But there has never been an "interaction ban" that you speak of. Jimbo, if you can do something to end the serious embarrassment this broken model is causing, that would be great. Ending en.WN and starting up something vaguely professional at your own site would be worth considering. Anything to stop the WMF's trademark being tarnished in this way. Tony1 (talk) 03:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Jimbo's point about McNeil's hostility (above) is amply demonstrated by McNeil's attempt to deceive everyone by moving my comment down here, under an uncivil title, too. So he thought he'd make it look as though Jimbo was not directly answering my critical comment. He was. Why is McNeil still in a position of authority at en.WN? To answer one of McNeil's rebuttals to me, above, I have indeed offered helpful comments to a regular here when she approached me by email about how to get en.WN out of its malaise. There was a triple exchange of messages, from memory. But I wasn't willing to give much more, since I see no evidence that the WN model is viable as currently structured. Just one last point: since you falsified the title here when deceptively relocating my comment, you might answer to it—why is a WN "track record" necessary if a member of the Wikimedia movement is to provide input here? More calculated, self-serving xenophobia? Tony1 (talk) 06:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

 * (ec) But I don't understand this hostility to the Signpost. It's not like we're in competition for readers; our focus is completely different. And the quality of Wikinews speaks for itself.  All you have to do is look at today's front page to get an idea: international news alongside "original reports" on...Australian rugby? –Neotarf (talk) 07:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Neotarf, I don't know you, so I'll suppose you aren't trolling. (This whole thread btw, I'm painfully aware, is likely to be mistaken as Wikinews trolling Jimmy.  Knowing Brian as well as I do, I can tell you for sure, that's not the case.  Wikinews culture can mislead Wikipedians, and vice versa.  And I'm pretty sure Jimmy, even though I don't know him nearly as well, isn't trolling either even though some of his comments could easily look that way to Wikinewsies — though both of them might be better off not engaging each other directly because they just don't tend to get on well with each other however much they might try.)

 * I'm willing to believe someone could contribute to the Signpost and yet not be aware it functions as an anti-Wikinews propaganda outlet. If you only hear one voice, day in and day out for months and years, trashing Wikinews — and if you don't come to Wikinews with an open mind to find the truth, you can be misled.  The insidious trap is that with enough anti-Wikinews indoctrination it becomes increasingly difficult for you to have an open mind.  Signpost has refused to post stories that expose major Wikinews successes, such as our access to the London Paralympics, and what they do publish is generally anti-Wikinews propaganda.

 * Perhaps you've been misled about the core mission of Wikinews. If you mistakenly thought we were here to provide a precis of the "big" international stories of the day, then you'd see what the more rabid sororicidal faction want you to see when you look at the main page.  But that isn't what we're here for.  Making that our priority would be doing a disservice to the world.  What the world needs is high journalistic standards in an open wiki.  It's a tall order requiring deep insight into both journalism and wikis.  We've conceived a fusion of the wikimedian ideal of achieving neutrality through a nonprofit open wiki with journalistic principles; it's a really marvelous thing, and day by day, month by month, year by year, we look for, and find, ways to do it better.  We're in this for the long haul; creating something new under the sun takes patience.  And we look at the main page and are proud of the fine work we're doing.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:06, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Patience indeed. It looks like the same criticisms that were leveled at Wikinews back in April are still valid.  Maybe someone should have given some thought to answering those criticisms, instead the Signpost editor-in-chief is called a "shithead". –Neotarf (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Mine is nearing an end; in the face of a sustained campaign to have the project closed, I shall ask someone from Wikimedia UK to pick up where I simply cannot spare the time to deal with certain individuals. And, despite Pi zero's good-faith efforts to engage, Neotarf, it is patently obvious you're a meatpuppet — or unwittingly being manipulated — into repeating what suits the agenda of this project's most-shrill critics. Thankfully, they "don't do content". --Brian McNeil / talk 22:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Brian, I'm saddened to admit you're right. Responding to reasonable comments with non-sequitur talking points is a sign of someone who isn't listening.  --Pi zero (talk) 01:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

"Meatpuppet"? Is that the best you can do? Your epithets are getting less colorful. But I think Pi zero has got one thing right: we're not going to see a response from Mr. McNeil to either to the question of why anyone would need a "Wikinews track record" in order to be taken seriously in this forum, or to the more overarching questions about the Wikinews project. Ironically, the thread Mr. McNeil links to on Tony's talk page from three years ago spotlights the same problems as this one: removing text from a user page, a negative, personalized, attack-oriented discussion, and biting newcomers.

I may be a newbie, but meatpuppet? No. No one asked me to come here. I saw Mr. McNeil's post on Jimbo's talk page, and was interested because of news coverage of the Wikimania keynote speech. I would note that Tony's comment there is a bit more pessimistic than his comment of three years ago (linked above), where he says, "I see the rise of non-commercial Internet news as an exciting part of the Foundation's work". –Neotarf (talk) 04:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Neotarf, people who understand something are more qualified to have an opinion about it than people who don't. Wikinewsies tend to think this is obvious, as we're very fact-oriented here, but one of the subtlest flaws in the —in some ways obviously quite successful, for its purpose— Wikipedian workflow is that it often fails to effectively encourage a fact-based mindset.

 * There's a long history of a small, highly vocal minority of Wikipedians harassing Wikinews and trying to shut it down, and the pattern that's emerged in their strategy over time is not just lack of understanding Wikinews, but evident lack of caring whether they understand Wikinews. This is clearly visible in, for example, the incident in April where they didn't inform English Wikinewsies of the discussion — and didn't see anything wrong with that.  That's typical of what we've come to expect; not 'valid criticisms', but inventing bad things to say about us without regard to whether they're true, and then inventing new bad things to say whenever they figure the old bad things weren't producing the desired result.  There's an obvious contrast between that, and the principle of vetting before publication that is core to English Wikinews workflow.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess Tony1 failed to read my reply. This project, and any other WMF project is not here for your personal theater of war. If you don't want to listen, take some real time to actually learn what it takes to write some OR, then your voice here is nothing more than a hate speech. Wikinews isn't going anywhere and you and your friend's (wikipedia's) constant attempt to gain control of all WMF sites like you are the only ones out there doing anything, constructive or not, will not work. So unless you actually have something to contribute to this project to improve it, stop bringing your personal hate for whoever it is you have a problem with, to our site. Like my mom used to say, "if you don't have anything good to say, shut your f***ing mouth." DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 19:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Tony1 (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This question. While I see it is not technically 'solved', please don't boom it, it would be handled in due time. It is already old. Gryllida 09:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Away for a few days
My wife and I have just had a baby, so I won't be able to respond in as much detail as I would like for several more days. At least, that's the most likely. But who knows, if I get a surprise afternoon with the baby sleeping calmly, I may be back sooner. I just wanted to let people know that I'm not ignoring this discussion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Congratulations, Jimmy!

 * (In my humble opinion, there isn't any discussion here to ignore; I'd say it's dead, no hope of recovery. Seems to me to have started out with good intentions all around, but the signal has gotten lost in the noise.)  --Pi zero (talk) 20:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks for letting us know...and congratulations. That was an interesting censorship tale from the hospital.  I will continue to try to follow this discussion as well, after the Signpost publication deadline. –Neotarf (talk) 05:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Wiki things should not burden you, I hope; it's a light, interactive and transparent atmosphere.
 * Congratulations, Jimbo. You all be healthy. :-) Gryllida 10:55, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Congratulations, Jimmy! I hope you, your wife, and baby, are all doing well.
 * Unfortunately, this discussion degenerated when I had to alert you to my post via Wikipedia. No intent to troll, and I take it for-granted the same on your side. Most-telling that there is zero denial of meatpuppetting from The Signpost contributors; and, I hold them largely-responsible for further-lowering your opinion of the project.

 * I have not read the full discussion; simply because it has a maliciously-motivated thread of hatred for this project running through it. Local admins cannot, realistically, do anything about that — unless it were to carry out administrative acts (such as blocks/bans) under-advisement from Stewards.

 * Most-amusing is the preposterous assumption that any of us might consider The Signpost any sort of 'credible' competitor. But, I'll not give them more ammunition to troll with by critiquing their efforts. I do, however, suspect Wikimedia UK might benefit from having you visit Edinburgh for some PR-work at some point in the not-too-distant future. ;-) --Brian McNeil / talk 13:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

 * @Brian McNeil. Re your statement: "there is zero denial of meatpuppetting". Is that some kind of a joke?  Did you even bother to read my response to your post, or are you ignoring it deliberately. First "meat puppet", now "troll". But our first interaction didn't go too smoothly either, did it. Although the writing in this caseis far from clear, I seem to stand accused of "fratricide", "personal vendettas" and "yellow journalism". —Neotarf (talk) 07:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Previous discussion of Wikinews
There probably isn't anything I could say about Wikinews here that hasn't already been said better, and with greater insight, by someone else. Here are some links to previous discussions.

Discussions on Meta :

 * Critique of Wikinews front page: “Example of failed model: internationally significant stories mixed with stealing toilet parts, postman killed in collision”, initiated by Tony, April 2013

 * On closing Wikinews: “Close Wikinews completely, all languages?”, initiated by Gestumblindi, 29 March 2013

 * Analysis: “English Wikinews has serious community problems in addition to the failure of its website model”, initiated by Tony, March 2013

 * Rejected proposal : "Proposals for closing projects/Closure of English Wikinews" initiated by Adam Cuerdan, November 2012

Signpost discussions :

 * Op-ed: “It's time to stop pretending the English-language Wikinews is a viable project,” by Adam Cuerden, 10 July 2013 Wikinews editors are invited to contribute to the article in advance, on behalf of Wikinews, but ignore the offer:

 * News and Notes, “German-language Wikipedians spearhead another effort to close Wikinews”, by The ed17, 25 March 2013

–Neotarf (talk) 06:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Perhaps why the University of Wollongong has it's journalism students contributing here? --RockerballAustralia c 08:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh I'll gladly reinsert that nice link that was removed from here: "Wikinews - a safe haven for learning journalism, free of the usual suspects of spin and commercial agendas." DragonFire1024 (Talk to the Dragon) 00:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 1


text:
Activists protest against School of the Americas

According to the Associated Press, around 16,000 protesters demonstrated outside a Fort Benning, Georgia, military school this weekend, demanding it be closed in connection with accused human rights violations. Indymedia reports 20 people were arrested in acts of nonviolent civil disobedience.

Among the crowd were celebrity-actors Martin Sheen and Susan Sarandon; Sarandon narrated the 1997 documentary School of Assassins about the school's history. Indymedia web site quotes Elizabeth Nadeau, a 27-year-old student, as saying "Prison will not deter us. We will be here until we close the school and change the foreign policy that it represents."

In 1946 the military Latin American Training Center U.S. Ground Forces was established in Panama; in 1949 it became the U.S. Army Caribbean Training Center and during 1963 the training center expanded and  became the U.S. Army School of the Americas (USARSA or SOA). The SOA mission was to counter the influence of Communism in the region, and to assist Latin-American nations in fighting armed Communist movements. In 1984 the school was moved to Fort Benning, near Columbus. At the end of 2000, the SOA was closed as its reason of existence as an anti-Communist school was rendered unnecessary. In 2001, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation was opened in the same location. WHINSEC offers training to Latin American military and civilian forces in combat, counter-narcotics, and counter-insurgency techniques, with training completed mainly in the Spanish language.

Activists claim that both SOA (in the past, during 80's) and WHINSEC (at present day) trained militias in tactics of violence that are/were used against political dissidents in their native countries. They accuse SOA graduates of been responsible of death squads, drug deals, murders, rape and torture. They say the school is responsible by these acts and that many techniques of torture its graduated students have used in their countries had been learned at the military American school. A list of allegeds SOA graduated students's crimes can be seen at the Virtual Truth Commission, an anti-SOA webpage.

Pro-SOA say the school was important in the maintenance of the security in the Latin America and United States during Cold War. A list of death victims by communist groups between 1935-1972 only in Brazil can be seen at the Ternuma (Terrorism never), a Brazilian alleged anti-terrorism webpage. Also, the US Department of Defense maintains a list of significant terrorist incidents between 1961-2003, among them are several crimes committed by communist groups. The UK version of IndyMedia distributes a copy in English of the Manual of the Urban Guerrilla which details techniques of urban terrorism for communism, written by Carlos Marighella, a communism fighter. The Cuban dictator Fidel Castro advocated armed revolutionary struggle in Latin America. The USSR or Soviet Union gave trainning, military and economic help through Cuba to various communists groups in American continent.

The protest at Fort Benning which involved a mock funeral procession is an annual event organized by the School of Americas Watch (SOAW) to commemorate the first assassination attributed to school's graduates, the November 16 1989, killing of six Salvadoran Jesuit priests, their housekeeper, and her teenage daughter, at the University of Central America (UCA). Of the 27 soldiers cited for that killing by a 1993 UN Truth Commission, 19 were SOA graduates. SOAW lists 11 former Latin American dictators as graduates of the School. USA deny they supported dictators and they protest against Fidel Castro, the long-time dictator of Cuba, who has received support, military and economic help from USSR for a long time.

SOA officials say thousands of soldiers have been trained and about 300 of them have been accused of human rights violations. "The connections that critics make between the school and the crimes allegedly committed by its graduates are tenuous at best", says Joe Leuer - who worked at SOA.

Pro-military activists planned a concurrent gathering called "God Bless Fort Benning Celebration," to honor the soldiers and history of the military base where WHINSEC is located. "If they have 10,000, then we have 10,001," organizer Miriam Tidwell told Associated Press. Unverified reports of this counter-demonstration put attendance figures between 10,000 and 15,000.

WHINSEC operates with an annual budget of approximately $8 million, the school curriculum now includes a mandated 8 hours of training in human rights which includes "human rights, rule of law, due process, civilian control of the military, and the role of the military in a democratic society."


text:
Wikinews:Protection log

00:21, 5 Dec 2004 Lyellin protected Main Page (Protecting to stop vandalism to main page)  04:36, 23 Nov 2004 Eloquence unprotected MediaWiki:Sitenotice (allow everyone to add notices here during demo and early project stages)

title: Wikinews:Protection log


text:
Talk:Four NBA players suspended indefinitely for brawl

Suspensions not indefinite
I am a bit confused here. The name of the article, title and the first paragraph state the suspensions were indefinite but the next paragraph gives the lengths of the suspensions, which are definitely not indefinite. I guess a change has been made but not fully followed through. Changing the text would not be difficult but I am not sure what to do about the name of the article itself. --80.195.187.124 13:53, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


text:
Template:Source

—

title: Template:Source


text:
Template:Byline

Avoid using this template in new articles. See the Wikinews style guide for preferred modern practice. We would now write
 * January 1, 2005, —
 * Massive floods soaked ...

instead of
 * Massive floods soaked ...

es:Plantilla:Byline

—

title: Template:Byline


text:
Wikinews talk:Reference desk

Deletions of useful research resources
I just had to re-add a lot of resources, most of which were deleted by one user (Dan100) (in a single session, with a very small annotation). Many were also removed by subsequent users (MrMiscellanious being notable).

Please never ever ever remove a resource from this list if it is conceivably useable by people in finding new stories or in researching stories. Many of these resources are very hard to find in the first place.

You know I am not talking about vandalism and commercial spam. You know I am not talking about items posted by people who have never used Wikinews before and never post again, and who clearly misunderstand what the list is etc.

I am talking about removing the foundation of what we do here, finding and writing about news. Do not ever undermine this.

If you think a resource has a bias or needs some annotation, make some annotation. If it's mis-filed, re-file it. File it twice. Make a list of biased resources. Make a list of untrustworthy resources. Do whatever it takes to get the bee out of your bonnet, but do not delete it.

This discussion page hasn't been used in a year, and yet Dan100 deleted about half of the items I have even added here, many useful, and oddly enough, 90% of those removed being 'left-wing' or undermining of the current system of media control. Not that all the sources I added were this sort. Comprende? Dan100, comprende? -- Simeon 15:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Suggest we think about compiling sources etc. useful to an editor.
Should we import lists from Wikipedia? List_of_newspapers Should we just refer to an open directory like ODP? --119 21:51, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree on the sources. I don't think importing the list would be a bad thing- why not do it? Lyellin 07:39, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yahoo
I found this at the Yahoo RSS feeds index:

"What are the terms of use? The feeds are provided free of charge for use by individuals and non-profit organizations for personal, non-commercial uses. We ask that you provide attribution to Yahoo! News in connection with your use of the feeds.

If you provide this attribution in text, please use: "Yahoo! News." If you provide this attribution with a graphic, please use the Yahoo! News logo that we have included in the feed itself.

We reserve all rights in and to the Yahoo! News logo, and your right to use the Yahoo! News logo is limited to providing attribution in connection with these RSS feeds.

We are also including the provider of each individual news story in the feed alongside each headline. Please do not alter this for display. We want our news partners to be attributed for their work.

Yahoo! News also reserves the right to require you to cease distributing these feeds at any time for any reason."

So that would mean we can use Yahoo news, providing we give attribution. Is that right? -- Redge|(Talk) 18:22, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I think we should avoid using Yahoo! News when possible because their links die after only a few days. You can verify this by clicking on the Yahoo! News links at Rumsfeld to remain in Bush administration and Rice new Secretary of State. — Jeandré du Toit, 2005-04-03t10:11z

Registration required to read linked articles.
I think we should avoid these sources when possible, e.g.: the NYT and SMH. — Jeandré du Toit, 2005-04-03t10:11z

 * I'm not sure about SMH, but registration for the NYT is free. What's the big deal? You can use Bugmenot if you feel it's an invasion of your privacy to register. The NYT is too important of a news outlet for us to ignore its stories. If NYT ever requires paid registration, then you'll have a stronger case to avoid them. — DV 10:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree we shouldn't ignore them; "avoid [...] when possible" was maybe the wong way to describe it (tho the right way for Yahoo! News which disappears their articles, and makes it difficult to find replacements later, see the above section). How about trying to find the same info in a normal source, and placing that link above those of the hassle links? — Jeandré du Toit, 2005-04-03t10:39z

 * Due to the troubles the NYT has had from time to time, I agree that they should not be the only source for a news article. I always try to have multiple sources. But the NYT has a large staff of reporters and often breaks a story which is simply reprinted in other news outlets with a credit to the NYT, so it's a good idea to link to the original NYT piece in those cases, in case the secondary reprint link goes bad later on.

 * To help the reader navigate sources for timeliness and relevance, it also helps to order sources from newest to oldest. If the NYT has the newest story, then it's helpful for that citation to appear first in the Sources section.

 * This doesn't come up all that often, so it's not a big deal. I appreciate your sentiment of being annoyed by stories with registration links. — DV 11:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A better system for this
Ideally, we need a db structure to maintin this info.

It is gonna get really big in scope, if not in actual number of real entries, quite soon, if we want stuff to be findable. Eg we need sections for background info, as well as news event sources, and both of those need to be searchable by both topic and location. This can be done using flat text, but it's a lot of work as it scales up. Lots and lots of work, and really hard to do once there are a lot of entries.

So, it would be nice if we had a db, with three metadata tag fields for each resource (resource name as key): news/background, topic, location. Should be able to have multiple tags of each type.

Anyone see any other necessities for it? If noone else can implement it, and we can't convince find some way to do this with the wiki db engine, then I volunteer to set up a mysql table and cgi or something to store the stuff.

- Simeon 22:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) - updated Simeon 07:27, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * OK I have started! And it works, and will be able to be queried using DynamicPageList thanks to IlyaHaykinson!

The top of the tree is at Category:Sources.

Each source gets a page of its own, with Source: as prefix to the name please, eg Source:Reuters

Requries an understanding of how Categories work — that you put tags on the thing to be categorised, rather than manually listing that thing in multiple category pages. The category pages automatically pick up any article which has the associated tag.

Look at the code behind Source:Reuters or any other one, and use it as a template to make new source pages. First make sure you don't duplicate an existing one, look in Category:Sources/All sources.

Also make sure you tag all of them with Category:Sources/All sources !

When copying an existing page as a template, make sure you modify the |sort-order-parameter parts of each category tag. This is not intuitive, and fiddly (try using search-replace of a text editor) ... but it's necessary to make all the entries sort in the category listings, not all come under 'S' for Source:... .

eg

 * you would want to change |Reuters to match instead whatever the full name of the source is.

Regarding duplicate entries, if you think they are needed so that people can find a source under more than one name, eg maybe under it's full name and its acronym, prefer to document the source under the most commonly-used name, then add #REDIRECT pages for the alternative name articles.

Todo

 * move some stuff

 * move all Category:Sources/Topic/ => Category:Sources/Topic/World/Countries/

 * move all Category:Sources/Topic/ => Category:Sources/Topic/World/

 * or should it be Category:Sources/Topic/Location/World/Countries/''

 * something to ponder for a while while making coffee, and before starting a migration.

 * Amgine has suggested in irc that Topic/World/ would last at least until faster-than-light travel.

 * I think it should be ok beyond as well, since Sources:blah for each world can be on the relevent wikinews server for that world, hence mars.wikinews.org/wiki/Category:Sources/Topic/World/... will store sources relevent to that world, and users from earth will grep for leads there, if researching a story on Mars. ehem. Simeon 07:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * make a lot of things sort properly using |sort key syntax

 * add a lot more topics, locations, a few more media, and of course many many sources

Any other suggestions? WorldRegions seems a bit naff .. any better word for this? 'Regions' by itself could be confused with provinces, suburbs, etc. MajorRegions is also naff and has 'rR' which is hard to pronounce. GlobalRegions is longer than WorldRegions. WorldRegions looks a bit too much like WorldReligions.

Simeon 19:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) & Simeon 19:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) & Simeon 07:07, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Further development of category tree
Here is a set of categories - not fully fleshed out - that I've developed from the above experiment, plus a look through our entire category tree for articles.

Before you read it, recall that the idea is not to have a category for each specific case, but to have categories that are used to query using AND, that can isolate a small enough bunch of sources for the specific case you are after, then you can manually examine them to find good ones for your case.

The tree is therefore, not meant to take care of this by itself, the tree really is to keep the list of categories navigable. Readers may sometimes browse it looking for sources, but it shouldn't be expected to cover every case without using the AND query.

So for example, a source may be tagged with 'Disaters and accidents' as well as 'Nature/Earthquake'. This means we don't need to duplicate the 'Nature/Earthquake' category under 'Disasters and accidents' .. or looked at another way, if we wish to duplicate it, we simply use a #REDIRECT.

Here is the list I am thinking about. Any suggestions welcomed. I would like if possible to eliminate the 'Blah and blah' categories, following from the process described above. But usually there is no single word for the concept, and we have these categories already in the article categories. :?

And remember these are tags for keeping track of a bunch of resources for people to use in researching an article. Not for articles themselves. To make a (better) database of resources for our authors to use.

Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Crime gang Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Legislation Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Intellectual Property/Copyright Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Intellectual Property/Patent Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Corruption and nepotism Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Prison Category:Sources/Topic/Crime and law/Whitecollar crime  Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Theatre Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Ballet Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Book Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Film
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Humour
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Installation
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Painting
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Persons/Obituary
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Poetry
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Sculpture
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Television
Category:Sources/Topic/Culture and entertainment/Wackynews

Category:Sources/Topic/Disasters and accidents

Category:Sources/Topic/Economy and business/Daylight saving time
Category:Sources/Topic/Economy and business/Company/Microsoft
Category:Sources/Topic/Economy and business/Product recalls

Category:Sources/Topic/Education

Category:Sources/Topic/Food/Preparation/Chefs

Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Acupuncture
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Chinese medicine
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Complimentary medicine
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Disease
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Fitness/Yoga
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Western/Drugs
Category:Sources/Topic/Health/Western/Surgery

Category:Sources/Topic/History/

Category:Sources/Topic/Human rights/Free speech

Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/ANZUS
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/ANZAC
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/ASEAN
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/Commonwealth
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/European Union
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/NAFTA
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/NATO
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Alliance/United Nations

Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Space

Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Country/France
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Country/United States

Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Global

Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Africa
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Asia
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Australasia
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Europe
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Middle East
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/North America
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/Oceania
Category:Sources/Topic/Location/South America

Category:Sources/Topic/Nature/Preservation
Category:Sources/Topic/Nature/Earthquake
Category:Sources/Topic/Nature/Volcano
Category:Sources/Topic/Nature/Weather

Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Defence
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Diplomacy
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Election
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Government/Civil service
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Immigration
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/International aid
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/NGO
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Wars/Civil
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Policital movement
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Protest
Category:Sources/Topic/Politics and conflicts/Social welfare

Category:Sources/Topic/Religion and spirituality/Christianity

Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Astronomy/Observatory
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Biotechnology
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Computer
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Cryptozoology
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Environment
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Internet/Spam
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Internet/Peer to peer
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Internet/Wiki
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Social/Media
Category:Sources/Topic/Science and technology/Social/Behaviour

Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Athletics
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Boxing
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Chess
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Cycling
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/American
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/Australian Rules
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/Canadian
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/Rugby Union
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/Rugby League
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Football/Soccer
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Golf
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Ice Hockey
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Judo
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Sailing
Category:Sources/Topic/Sport/Swimming

title: Wikinews talk:Reference desk