text:
User talk:212.179.206.10

Welcome
212.179.206.10, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- NGerda 16:07, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:212.179.206.10


text:
User talk:67.68.16.232

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. 67.68.16.232, welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how an article should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:67.68.16.232


text:
Hurricane Emily is second strike for Jamaica

July 18, 2005

The outer bands of the Category 4 storm Hurricane Emily started to affect Jamaica shortly before 8:00am Saturday. Increasing winds and rain swept the island nation throughout the afternoon as the eye of the storm passed 100 miles off the southern coast. Utility poles were downed and storm debris closed the seaside highway to the international airport. Other roads were reported closed as well.

While islanders did not get through the two storms unscathed, and 4 people were left dead, the Land and Environment Minister Dean Peart told reporters, "Mercifully, Jamaica was spared the worst".

Buses were sent by officials to southern coastal areas to evacuate residents from the flood prone region, but most refused to leave and preferred to ride it out beside 8 foot waves that pounded areas of the coast line. Wind gusts of 155 mph doubled over palm trees in the capital city of Kingston.

At a southern penninsula seaside fishing villiage, Port Royal residents boarded up and prepared for the worst again, as surfers gathered nearby to take on the challenge of 15 to 18 foot waves. "If I'm going to die, it's going to be right here," said a local resident Gordon Murphy, 39, with his 2-year-old son. "What's next?" he joked, "[Hurricane] Franklin?"

Many shops and businesses stayed open as long as they could, classifying it as another inconvenience despite its near Category 5 strength. Instead of the possible disaster that many prepared for, by late afternoon, Emily had all but disappeared. Light scattered showers in some areas of the island were the only remnant, as residents went about their lives after the second hurricane scare in as many weeks.

Supplies that many stocked for Dennis and Emily may yet be put to use. Many wonder what storms are yet to come. Authorities say this will be one of the most active hurricane seasons in history. Emily was the strongest and earliest to form this year since records, dating back to 1860, have been kept.

Earlier, Emily struck Grenada on Thursday with nearly a direct hit. A national disaster was called the day after its winds ravaged hundreds of homes and killed at least one man.


text:
User talk:NGerda/Archive 4

This is User talk:NGerda Archive 4, performed at 16:35 UTC July 18, 2005.

Hi!
Thanks, I'm glad you're still bombing around with unrestrained enthusiasm! Saw the lead, maybe it would be a good jumping off point to write something about the justice process going on in Rwanda at the moment, hm, will have to see how much time I have after commenting on the proposed layout... :) ClareWhite 1 July 2005 09:28 (UTC)
 * Sounds excellent! NGerda July 1, 2005 09:29 (UTC)
 * Um, hang on. Isn't there a better picture that could be used than 'Darfur refugees'? OK, I'll go find one... ClareWhite 1 July 2005 09:40 (UTC)
 * We had a great pic a while ago of skulls from the genocide, and I couldn't find it. -- NGerda July 1, 2005 09:42 (UTC)
 * Yeh, was just gonna say that might be the one to use again. It's been used on several previous stories if you can copy the reference? Rwandan genocide investigations to be completed by end of July ClareWhite 1 July 2005 09:50 (UTC)
 * Done! Thanks a bunch.  Tell me if you need any help. NGerda July 1, 2005 09:52 (UTC)
 * Aaah! Would you stick this link in Rwandan_genocide_investigations_to_be_completed_by_end_of_July somewhere around the words tha refer to it. Can't get the bloody hang of it and I've got to go back to work... thanks! ClareWhite 1 July 2005 10:16 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. It's 3:20 a.m. here in California. -- NGerda July 1, 2005 10:17 (UTC)

Excuse the interuption, Great job buddie on the WWDC!! I agree with with CGorman, award deserved
 * Thanks Mr. Anonymous IP! NGerda July 1, 2005 10:34 (UTC)

Apologies on that one
I did not realize they were published. BTW: the rollback merely does an edit on the version before the first one by you - it's not a "vandal tool" per se. - Amgine/talk 1 July 2005 08:57 (UTC)
 * It was created to revert vandalism, not legitimately-based user edits. NGerda July 1, 2005 08:58 (UTC)
 * NGerda is completely correct on that. Ask anyone on WP or any developer - it should only ever be used for rv'ing vandalism Dan100 (Talk) 1 July 2005 09:11 (UTC)

Sorry to re-post this NGerda, but I just asked on the Wikipedia mailing list about the intention of the Rollback. Angela replied, and also pointed me here, where Brion (a MediaWiki developer) explains the intentions of Rollback.

So as you can see, Amgine is clearly abusing his admin privileges here. Dan100 (Talk) 1 July 2005 13:15 (UTC)

 * Great muckraking Dan! NGerda July 1, 2005 21:16 (UTC)

I've tried a news report for today (7/1/2005)
I just did a 3-minute news cast for today. Seems to have worked quite well. Thank you for the suggestions.
 * - Paul Robinson (Rfc1394 1 July 2005 22:09 (UTC))
 * No prob, man. I'll check it out right now!  NGerda July 1, 2005 22:10 (UTC)
 * And don't forget to add it to Template:FrontPageMediaMenu. NGerda July 1, 2005 22:12 (UTC)
 * - I have re-uploaded the file with the audio amplified by -7 db in an attempt to reduce the volume level. I shall try to remember if I do any more reports to cut the volume down a bit.
 * - Paul Robinson (Rfc1394 1 July 2005 22:26 (UTC))
 * Sounds good, eh? NGerda July 1, 2005 22:28 (UTC)

Audio Wikinews Scripts
You may have seen this on the water cooler, but if not, please see: Wikinews talk:Audio Wikinews --Chiacomo (talk) 2 July 2005 05:24 (UTC)

Category:LGBT
Do you think we can come up with a bit more descriptive name than Category:LGBT, such as Category:Gay and lesbian? --
 * Hello - when adding a category to a talk page for discussion - be sure to add a colon after the first set of brackets like: Category:LGBT so it will print as "Category:LGBT" instead of just listing the talk page in the category. As for a more descriptive name - you probably know that LGBT news includes bisexuals, the transgendered and intersex folk - who are neither gay nor lesbian clinically or in self identification. We would have to have a category that read something like: Category:Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex - which is way too long. From much discussion in the other Wikimedia Foundation projects, the wiki category acronym "LGBT" has become the usual project consensus as a workable, less-controversial compromise. -- Davodd | Talk 5 July 2005 00:50 (UTC)

 * Thanks for creating an LGBT section on Wikinews. I am very interested in creating more stories for this category as well as others. As for the title, I have seen and given the issue much thought and agree "LGBT" is best - and it is the most popular according to search numbers on Google and Yahoo!. I don't believe we need to keep adding to the current title and feel it is inclusive of all communities. A discussion can be found on Wikipedia w:Talk:LGBT - Tdempsey 5 July 2005 06:16 (UTC)

Please don't assume I agree with you
In fact, I did not agree with your reverts, nor do I agree with putting the picture on that page- I just fixed the links so the article would link correctly. In fact, I agree with Dan regarding the splitting of the articles, but at the time, I was more worried about making sure the lead article linked correctly. Don't put words in my mouth. Lyellin 5 July 2005 21:15 (UTC)

Wikinoticias in need of translations
Hi! I read you are a proficient (and available!) english/spanish translator. The main collaborators in es.wikinews are currently on holiday. As a result, we have gone down from several articles a day to several days without an article. This situation should be over next monday. Might I ask you to lend us an extra hand until then by translating some Original Reports from english to spanish? Thanks! -- 80.28.47.78 5 July 2005 21:24 (UTC) (noticias.blog @ es.wikinews)
 * I would like to, however I am taking a wiki break for now. I will be willing to help in a week, though!  -- NGerda July 5, 2005 21:26 (UTC)

24 hours block for three-revert-rule violation on Template:Lead article
Hi,

we do not accept reverting the same article more than three times within a period of 24 hours. Since you have done so, under current policy, I have no choice but to block you from editing for 24 hours. Please, in the future, instead of reverting repeatedly, discuss a change on the talk page. Thanks,--Eloquence 6 July 2005 03:19 (UTC)
 * While it's obvious NGerda did in fact violate the 3RR, policy does not appear to require an automatic 24 hour block. If one checks the relevant Wikipedia policy, one will read, "The admins are under no obligation to block a user for breaking the 3RR, for instance if they see that the problem has been resolved in another manner." It would appear this issue has been resolved, though there may be other issues to consider. --Chiacomo (talk) 6 July 2005 04:26 (UTC)

 * Two users insisted that NGerda be blocked, so that option does appear to be out of the question.--Eloquence 6 July 2005 04:37 (UTC)

your vacation
I tried to rally some support for you NGerda, but it appears to me from the feedback I've gotten that you really have made some people upset. You of course are in the position to know best what it was that caused all the trouble.

You are not alone in being labeled a trouble maker. Bear that in mind that others have been trounced for pushing their own agendas. All here at Wikinews could probably be blamed for opinions and actions that attempt to trump others. When to back off may be the key thing you need to ponder. -Edbrown05 7 July 2005 04:35 (UTC)

 * First I'd like to thank you, Ed, for reinforcing this. Ed, you were the very first user I met at Wikinews, and you generously showed me how to edit the lead articles.  I seem to catch on to things quicker than I expect, and I have realized my mistakes at Wikinews.  My mistake is that I assume that people will rally around good changes, when in fact they are far more comfortable with a complete voting process and consent.  I am terribly sorry to all I offended by bypassing the system of consensus.  You have my word that I have learned from this and I will do my best to wait for community consensus before implementing major changes.  I want it to be clear, however, that I never made any changes to intentionally hurt Wikinews, as some of you may presume.

 * One final thing I'd like to note is that I've discovered that tensions can run high very quickly in IRC, and perhaps it is not the best platform to discuss heated issues. And I would appreciate it if users would stop telling me that I'm "not much of a use to Wikinews or "all [I] do is break the rules", especially'' when the very people accusing me of these things don't put anywhere near the work and dedication into Wikinews.  That is all, and happy editing and policy-revising to all!  -- NGerda July 7, 2005 05:12 (UTC)

User:Blibber
Currently, he has ONE edit. Now, even though there may be an specific type of vandal, that IP/Username does not need to be blocked for that long! It won't solve anything. Better to do a targeted block, whichsolves the issue, and allow things to return to normal. But again, that username has one edit. I know in past history, it's better to do a block which solves the problem, without extending it. Lyellin 7 July 2005 05:40 (UTC)
 * He is a known return vandal. Policy states that one-month blocking is permitted for return vandals.  -- NGerda July 7, 2005 05:41 (UTC)
 * Perhaps then you can point me to that policy, the only thing I see is "For vandalism and breaches of the three revert rule, admins should block for 24 hours. In other cases, admins should, in the first instances, consider the use of shorter blocks for first offenses, and only 24 hours or long if truly necessary." Which says nothing of that. Beyond that point, that username has been used ONCE. Now, that same type of vandal, and perhaps even that same vandal may have been here before. But if that person uses an IP, will we block for a month? 2 weeks? a week? The reason no is, because that that IP may be used my someone else. In this case, with a username, we only need a one day block- that will solve the problem. Lyellin 7 July 2005 05:44 (UTC)
 * While I agree with you, I have been criticized for blocking for too short of a time, and admins have exercised even 6-month-long blocks for this particular vandal.
 * If you agree with me, then do what you think is right- don't conceed to peer pressure. You and I disagree on most things- that doesn't mean I think since I have people who agree with me, you should just stop. Listen to their arguements, fight back, DISCUSS!. Lyellin 7 July 2005 05:48 (UTC)
 * You don't know what it's like, making 3,000 edits, and everybody only paying attention to the time I try to implement an easier publication system and making the lead article about 900,000 people in desperate need of humanitarian aid; and then trying to remove my sysop status, even though I've reverted more vandalism than any of them put together. :(  -- NGerda July 7, 2005 05:51 (UTC)
 * Nick, I'm sorry, but that garners NO sympathy from me. That's just whining. You've done great work. You've also done a lot of stuff taht just completly defies how Wikis are, and goes against the community. if you're gonna do that, get used to being liked, and disliked. Lyellin 7 July 2005 05:55 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but nobody ever told me what was wiki and what wasn't until now. That's the mistake made.  -- NGerda July 7, 2005 05:56 (UTC)
 * If it's the Ass Pus vandal (as this appears to be), I would feel absolutely free to block infinitely, or at least for as long as you like. This is the Willy on Wheels cross-project vandal who is to be blocked on sight. -- IlyaHaykinson 7 July 2005 05:57 (UTC)
 * At the time, the only change made was to put the wikithanks flower up. *shrugs* I've generally been of the opinion that you block what you need, and not more, but that's me. Lyellin 7 July 2005 06:00 (UTC)
 * See' Lyellin? -- NGerda July 7, 2005 05:58 (UTC)
 * *shrugs* Yes? Clearly Ilya and I have different opinons... that doesn't mean either one is right or wrong. Lyellin 7 July 2005 06:00 (UTC)
 * The Wikimedia board agrees with Ilya. -- NGerda July 7, 2005 06:01 (UTC)
 * *shakes head* This is pointless. It's like playing games with a Second Class Scout. Nick, I wish you a good evening, I've spent entirely too much time today not doing work because of Wikinews. Lyellin 7 July 2005 06:05 (UTC)

STOP
Please stop messing with wikinewwsnetwork pages and links whenever you get the chance, you are really pissing me off.--Ryan524 8 July 2005 18:21 (UTC)
 * oh and as for your unprotection of that media menu, good job, you're right afterall, vandals love to editi it too.--Ryan524 8 July 2005 18:26 (UTC)

 * WikiNews Network is currently in testing, and there is absolutely no Wikinews content broadcasting right now. I would be more then happy to add the link back once the network is up and running.  -- NGerda July 8, 2005 20:57 (UTC)

Deletion of Image:SF_cop_injured.jpg
You deleted Image:SF_cop_injured.jpg with the summary "Copyvio, taken directly from Indymedia news source".

If you look at the "About" page linked from url where that image is published ( → ) you will see that part of their mission is "To provide edited audio, video, and print stories [...] on the internet for independent media outlets and the general public.".

It is unfortunate that the Indymedia sites are not explicit about the copyright status of their content, as Wikimedia sites tend to be. It is also (imho) unfortunate that no-explicit-copyright-declaration must by default be interpreted as maximum-copyright-in-effect, but in this case, I believe that there is sufficient cause to believe the whoever the "rights-holder" of this image is intended to have it reused, especially in light of the statement to that effect on SF.Indymedia's "About" page and the lack of any formal copyright message whatsoever.

So although it is not explicitly licensed or released into the public domain, I think this image should qualify as fair use, as does the person who originally uploaded and tagged it as such. Please do not delete it again without further discussion.

Thanks for your many interesting contributions, btw. Leif 23:35, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I always welcome that. :)  However, our Fair use image policy clearly states that Photos from competing news organizations that are uploaded without permission can be deleted on sight.  This is why the image was deleted.  Best regards, NGerda 23:39, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Indymedia image
Indymedia does have radio buttons to select whether the image is Public Domain or not, see options near bottom of page link. I cannot tell if the image is PD, but the upload log the Wikicommons said it is.... -Edbrown05 04:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * From what I could tell, it wasn't PD. In addition, Wikinews Fair use prohibits us from using images from competing news sources.  -- NGerda 04:50, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * The sf.Indymedia.org image was made available for replubish to any non-commercial site. True, it is not PD - it is are CC:BY. As far as I know, images do not have to be PD to be in the WN fair use section. -- Davodd | Talk 05:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I never said they did have to be PD, but Wikinews does not allow copyrighted images from competing news organizations. -- NGerda 05:15, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * This to me seems a case of an interested party to the demonstration wishing to participate here with a photo. Then it got slammed. -Edbrown05 05:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey, if it was up to me, I would totally allow these images, but, unfortunately that's not how the rules are. -- NGerda 05:25, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd leave it be unless it was causing a problem. Indymedia allows us to use it. --RossKoepke 05:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I never saw Indymedia give us explicit permission to use their images. -- NGerda 05:29, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

What rule, read the bold print under Fair use on Wikinews like you mean it. It is talking about ripping off photos, not excluding them. Exclusion is non-participatory. -Edbrown05 05:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It clearly states: Photos from competing news organizations that are uploaded without permission can be deleted on sight. If you can show me where Indymedia has given us permission to use their image, I will gladly put the image back.  -- NGerda 05:33, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * It was clearly poorly worded. Which way are we headed here? To be restrictive or inclusive? -Edbrown05 05:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This is not an issue of exclusion, it is a copyright issue. Wikinews is in the Public Domain, which means we have to be very careful not to include any copyrighted work without permission.  We want Wikinews to be freely distributable and copyable, so these measures are necessary.  -- NGerda 05:41, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Pain in the butt. Fair use notice I don't see the same pic located at Richmond action page cited with the fair use stuff. -Edbrown05 05:52, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

It's 'fair use'. Pic is located on this page -Edbrown05 06:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * That it the web site's claim of Fair use immunity, which does not mean that the images contained there are necessarily Fair use. From their disclaimer: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner.  -- NGerda 06:07, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Under our current fair use policy this photo would not qualify. Also keep in mind that other non-news sites have a very different set of what they can use as fair use. Our current fair use policy assumes that any usable images that are not free can go onto commons. In cases like this where permission is granted to distribute but photos can not be uploaded commons or used under fair use we can not use them. I would recommend proposing the addition of by permission photos or CC-NC to our list of useable image types. --Cspurrier 14:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

If our current policy does actually prohibit us from using indymedia images, then I think the policy needs to be changed! Indymedia and Wikinews are not competitors; they are both non-profit endeavors to publish content for free, and both encourage the republishing of their content. So anyway, whats happening with those indymedia images now? Looking at the deletion log, it appears they have both been undeleted, but the article using them (San Fransisco anti-G8 rally turns violent) still shows broken images for both. Leif 23:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * While I agree with your spirit, there's a distinct difference between free as in beer, and free as in speech. Wikinews is free as in copyright free, hence the All content of Wikinews is in the Public Domain.  Indymedia does not relinquish all copyright as Wikinews requires for its content.  -- NGerda 23:25, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Articles to be finished
Sudan Ahnald in Kullyfournyeea

Wikimedia board members are just regular users like us..

 * A Wikimedia board member has expressed opposition to your Noncommercial image template. Many administrators are upset at your unilateral modifications to our Fair use policy.  Please discuss this at Wikinews Future talk.  -- NGerda 19:10, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikimedia board members have to follow the same rules as everyone else. They are not individual dictators, so they also must discuss and justify their actions to the community - or individual users. If an issue is not clear in current WN policy, then it should be discussed before decisions to ban certain types of content are made. As for the policy - it is a "proposed policy" that invites WN individaul members to make changes and mods to it. We are in beta, afterall. ;-) -- Davodd | Talk 19:32, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikimedia board members know the official Wikimedia policies- which is what we are required to adhere to. -- NGerda 19:44, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe they should read: Image use policy - under "Grants of license." CC-BY-NC falls under that - not fair use. -- Davodd | Talk 05:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's a nice little analogy for you: Wikinews policies are like state laws, and Wikimedia policies are like federal laws. Wikimedia has overriding precedence over Wikinews policies, especially in this case.  -- NGerda 06:28, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

IRC chatting
In response to this message:
 * Davodd, please bring this up to the Wikimedia folks at #Wikimedia. Thanks!  -- NGerda 07:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't use IRC very often since it messes with my firewall. Anyway, I have been one of the Wikimedia folks myself for a while now. But, if you mean the Board, I'm not hiding anywhere and each of the board members has my personal email address (or easy access to it) - or my various talk pages or the listserves, so they know where to find me if they really want to talk to me. ;-) -- Davodd | Talk 08:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

NASA article
Wow. It's pretty cool to be working on an article at the same time that you are. I'm very flattered. (nasa directory article)
 * Yup, I experience it every day ;) -- NGerda 08:47, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Site news
Cool! But I must make a bit of a correction, Dan was way ahead of me and actually managed to get the reporting together while I was running around a bit panicking :) Look forward to seeing what you come up with! Have you looked at the Somalia story recently? Am hoping to get it covered in my magazine (which makes it work!) so should be able to update. ClareWhite 09:35, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I was trying to figure out how to credit him, you can give it a shot if you want. ; ) The Somalia story got a little fragmented after Dan100 made some page moves... Oh well. I'm back to working!  -- NGerda 09:39, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

UK category
sorry about removing.. thought it was something mediawiki had added automatically for some reason.
 * No problem at all! It's my fault.  Just next time, if the country is wrong, change it to the correct category. Cheers! -- NGerda 19:43, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Undeletion
In my short time on wikinews, it seems like I keep seeing you delete things that I think should be (a) subject to discussion and (b) not deleted.

Would you please undelete Correction: NASA corporate directory not leaked for reasons explained at Water cooler/policy? And would you also please undelete the indymedia images you deleted, for reasons explained at the policy water cooler and also Wikinews talk:Image use policy? I still think these images qualify under our fair use policy, as apparently do other people, but even if they didn't qualify as fair use, Image use policy actually says very clearly "Images with license grants may be subject to certain requirements. This may include their use in derivative works, requirements of attribution, or their use in only non-commercial works." and "Images with a grant of license must be uploaded to Wikinews locally, and not to the Wikimedia Commons."

So will you undelete these items? Please?

Also, if it turns out that there is actually consensus to delete the NASA correction article, you should also delete the original which is now a broken redirect. Leif 21:14, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I will undelete the Correction article as you request, but there are serious issues with regards to the images. The Wikimedia Foundation has let their policy be known that copyrighted images from Indymedia cannot be used.  Our Fair use policy, which was difficult to get ratified, clearly states that we cannot use images from other news organizations. -- NGerda 21:19, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * According to Wikinews talk:Image use policy the fair use statement approved by the board allows "breaking news" type images. BUT that is utterly beside the point, as these images qualify outside the fair use policy, under the "grants of license" section on the image use page. Leif 21:48, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * They are images from a competing news organization, which is prohibited under our image policy. -- NGerda 22:02, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

I am re deleting the article. No correction needs to be issued, as the original article was patently false and may be deleted onsight according to our Speedy Deletion policy. -- NGerda 21:27, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for undeleting the article and then re deleting it. I would welcome hearing what changed your mind and then changed it back. Leif 21:48, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Chiacomo reminded me that Patent falsness, which the article is, may be deleted on sight by a Wikinews administrator. -- NGerda 22:02, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Somalia and others
Just thought you might like to know we're still following the Somalia story here (it still hasn't been reported in any British mainstream press, just BBC online), they are working on releasing the ship but as it stands they have ONE week worth of food. Don't know if there's a current story in it? ClareWhite 08:51, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * OMG, I'll write up a story as soon as I finish with some policy stuff. IRIN News is probably our best source.  Plus we can user their images. -- NGerda 08:52, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

oh yes and I said there were others too, though actually this might be more one for dan100 should he be watching...

prebombs but still worth getting online sonehow: the zimbabwean government managed to get large amounts of people to demolish their own houses last week by charging them 150 dollars if the government bulldozers did it for them. where would they send the bills to? think its on irin too. anyway, hopefully tomorrow i'll have some time to do some updates. world food programme confirmed today that there's been no progress on the hijacked ship. i'll leave you alone now :) CW
 * No, please, don't leave me alone! :P -- NGerda 18:07, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

infobox
How does one update that? Or can you? -Edbrown05 18:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sure I can do that for you, but what infobox? -- NGerda 18:20, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not locating "pre-war intelligence/infobox", but here's an example from Wendy finger incident. Wendy's infobox -Edbrown05 18:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Those are all editable by anyone. In the code for an article, when it says , just copy the Blah Blah infobox text and add Template to the beginning like so: Template:Blah Blah infobox.  Cheers! -- NGerda 18:30, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Nick
I got you on copyrighted titles. --Wimtennis2005 17:05, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Good. :) -- NGerda 17:06, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Any of the photo's work? --Wimtennis2005 17:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, photos already on Commons are acceptable. -- NGerda 17:38, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

How do I upload them? --130.111.96.155 17:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Alligator_grin-scubadive67.jpg --Wimtennis2005 17:44, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * [[Image:Alligator_grin-scubadive67.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Aliigator]] -- NGerda

portals it is then!
I thought the portal idea might be the same but it seemed to be all about categories whereas my proposal is about how humans would run it. could my ideas be incorporated into a plan of action if eloquence's ideas are adopted? CW (on phone)
 * The category system would greatly ease the workload off of neighborhood "portals", as all articles tagged with that neighborhood would be automatically listed in any way they wanted. This could include Sports, Politics, or any other category like that.  So, I think the portal idea is best, and it still leaves the portal open for customization. ;) -- NGerda 16:12, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

"Copyvio"
You marked 'Mastermind' of London bombings captured in Egypt "copyvio" (using the incorrect method, btw) but left no explanation. Please do not do this - next time explain what you think the copyvio is, so people can actually do something about. Dan100 (Talk) 20:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

3rd lead
oops, anyway I like waxman story for 3rd lead, but am afraid some might think it has an agenda, i.e. Ross. What do you think?-Edbrown05 10:11, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * OMG, I was just about to report on that! Run it, it's newsworthy and no one else is reporting on it. -- NGerda 10:12, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Beliefs are beliefs, but:
I believe largely in a free market economy with some government intervention at the corporate level - that is a capitalist economy with more government regulation of large business deals. --NGerda: Technocratic_movement -- Ross Koepke Talk 08:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:NGerda/Archive 4


text:
User talk:208.163.48.21

Welcome
208.163.48.21, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
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I think, however, you do need to have a good read of some the policy pages here - everything must be written from a "neutral point of view", no opinion is allowed, and everything in an must be sourced. Dan100 (Talk) 16:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:208.163.48.21


text:
User talk:208.49.251.162

Welcome
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title: User talk:208.49.251.162


text:
User talk:69.141.191.7

Welcome
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title: User talk:69.141.191.7


text:
User talk:209.22.88.24

Welcome
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title: User talk:209.22.88.24


text:
User talk:210.214.81.21

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! → CGorman (Talk) 18:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:210.214.81.21


text:
User talk:81.193.22.41

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! → CGorman (Talk) 18:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:81.193.22.41


text:
Talk:Yankees win 3 in 4 game series with Red Sox

Please say what sport it is that these teams were playing.
 * Done, at least the category was properly noted :) <--Edbrown05 19:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


text:
Template:SourceReg

( Registration required )

title: Template:SourceReg


text:
Talk:Hurricane Emily is second strike for Jamaica

No sources given. Everything in an article must be fully sourced before publishing. Dan100 (Talk) 19:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * There are no sources(except what the author cites, which is unhelpful). Nobody has it but Wikinews. Google search it. A Google search for Jamaica returns zero, repeat -0- news results!!!! -Edbrown05 19:23, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops, helps if you spell Jama(i)ca correctly :)-Edbrown05 20:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Edit
editprotected "Earlier, Emily stuck Grenada": This should be struck. Heavy Water (talk) 18:36, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ --SVTCobra 20:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


text:
User talk:208.131.182.203

Welcome
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title: User talk:208.131.182.203


text:
Talk:Sir Edward Heath, former British PM, dies at 89

With all due respect, the source added had a blatant POV... and the article had been published. A new article should be created if you wish to address new information. --Chiacomo (talk) 20:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean about the source POV. Thanks. Paulrevere2005 01:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Death toll in Musayyib, Iraq fuel tanker blast rises to 98

Article source subscription
Sorry about including the SMH article as a source - I got it via Google News and forgot they are able to by-pass the subscription. Does an article which requires (free) subscription qualify as an acceptable source? I haven't found anything in the Wikinews guidelines to refute this, but it's an interesting point. — Juxtaposed 21:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Free subscription is fine as a source. Pay subscription is not. -- Ross Koepke Talk 05:04, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Just include the same link Google News uses - it will still bypass the registration. Dan100 (Talk) 07:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


text: File:Edward Heath.jpg

title: File:Edward Heath.jpg


text:
User talk:85.164.80.231

Welcome
85.164.80.231, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
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Hi Thomas! -- NGerda 22:22, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Wikinews
Yes, Wikinews is a very interesting concept. Please, check it out, surf around! -- NGerda 22:30, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:85.164.80.231


text:
User talk:80.46.182.185

Welcome
80.46.182.185, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- NGerda 22:22, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:80.46.182.185


text:
User talk:195.92.168.165

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- NGerda 23:18, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:195.92.168.165


text:
UEFA CL: Second leg of first qualifying round starts tomorrow

July 18, 2005

Winners of the UEFA Champions League first qualifying round will be known by July 20. Three games will be played tomorrow, and nine the following day.

July 19 games
Last year's Champions League winner, Liverpool, has the clearest chance of advancing to the second round, after beating the Welsh team with 3:0 in the first leg. FBK Kaunas is also expected to come out victorious, after winning 4 - 2 away. Havnar Bóltfelag would need to win with at least 3 goals difference, unless they score more then 4 goals, when they could get by with 2 goals advantage in the second leg.

* Second leg home team shown first

July 20 games
Only two clear favorites are Macedonian Rabotnicki, who won 6:0 at home, and Moldovian Sheriff who managed to score four goals away in Malta.

* Second leg home team shown first

Source

 * UEFA Official Website


text:
User talk:67.164.167.98

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. 67.164.167.98, welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- NGerda 23:45, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:67.164.167.98


text:
Wikinews:Audio Wikinews/WikiDebate

Wiki Debate

WikiDebate is a proposed show co-hosted by MrMiscellanious, NGerda, and Ross Koepke. The show features a topic (chosen weekly by the community) which will be discussed on the show. Users can join our discussion on Skype, where the discussion would be moderated or call in to the WikiNews Network U.S. Hotline: (202) 470-2496. When a user makes a request to rebuttal a said topic on a designated IRC channel, the host of the show would then give the user time to make their rebuttal.

As of right now, the project is still being planned. We could use help with choosing the topics, as well as users who would be interested in joining our debate.

Proposed Topics

 * Should governments pay more attention to healthcare (if not provided) rather than anti-terrorism campaigns?

Interested Individuals
NGerda

title: Wikinews:Audio Wikinews/WikiDebate


text:
User talk:24.1.63.132

Welcome
24.1.63.132, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! - Borofkin 00:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:24.1.63.132


text:
User talk:65.35.201.159

Welcome
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Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! - Borofkin 00:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:65.35.201.159


title: File:19july2005.sxw


title: File:19july2005.pdf


text:
Talk:Cooper claims he learned of Plame through Rove

July 2005
I think the waiver of secrecy has nothing to deal with the grand jury, it has to deal with the trust relation between a confidential source and a journalist. Neither Rove nor Libby have the authority to sign anything for the grand jury. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.188.13.46 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 19 July 2005

Category
edit protected

Could this article be added to Category:MSNBC? I'm in two minds but thought it worth asking anyway. Thank you. Green Giant (talk) 12:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm lazily deferring the decision, by converting the wikilinks to use w and leaving an MSNBC wikilink unresolved. This is part of the function of w:  when the template links locally, it also adds the page to hidden Category:Pages with categorizable local links, flagging out that somebody should (eventually) investigate, check whether the page does belong, and whether it should belong, to the target category of the local link, and after deciding and either adding or not adding the page to the category, convert the w call to a hard local wikilink.  --Pi zero (talk) 13:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

edit protected Please add this article to Category:Time (magazine) and localize a link of the same name. Thank you. Green Giant (talk) 13:00, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Pi zero (talk) 20:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


text:
Deadly forest fire in Spain claims lives of firefighters

July 19, 2005 A deadly forest fire in Spain's Guadalajara province has claimed the lives of at least 11 fire fighters. The fire began after a group of day trippers in Cueva de los Casares on Saturday left a barbeque unextinguished -- the day trippers have since confessed to causing the fire. At least 11,000 acres have been affected by the fire thus far.

The 11 firefighters, both men and women in their 20s, were trapped in their vehicle after a change in wind direction caused their vehicle to be encircled with flames.

More than 150 firefighters have battled the blaze since Sunday. Water planes and helicopters from the region are assisting in the effort to extinguish the blaze; two French firefighting aircraft have been sent to augment Spanish forces.

Spain suffers on average 20,000 wild fires each year -- a heat wave and lack of rain have contributed to the tinder-box conditions which have exacerbated the fire season this year.


text:
User:Imroy

See my user page over on en.wikipedia.org.

As it applies to news items, perhaps I should supply a little info about myself.

 * I'm a 28 year old Australian male.
 * I'm generally left-wing, I don't how much. I'm definitely on the left somewhere.
 * I am rather politcal, but I don't generally expose that side of my personality unless I'm asked.
 * I try not to get involved in US politics, even though I have strong opinions about Bush and the people "advising" him.

That's all for now.

title: User:Imroy


text:
User talk:62.255.64.6

Welcome
62.255.64.6, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Dan100 (Talk) 07:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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title: User talk:62.255.64.6


text:
Report: invasion of Iraq provided boost for Al-Qaeda

July 18, 2005

A report released on July 18 by Chatham House has claimed that the risk of terrorism has increased as a result of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It says that terrorist networks such as Al-Qaeda have been strengthened, giving a boost to their "propaganda, recruitment and fundraising".

According to the press release, the report claims that there is "no doubt that the invasion of Iraq has imposed particular difficulties for the UK and for the wider coalition against terrorism".

"The UK is at particular risk because it is the closest ally of the US and has closely supported the deployment of British troops in the military campaigns to topple the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's regime in Iraq," it continued.

The report also criticised the UK governments lack of attention to international terrorism.

"As a result of giving lower priority to international terrorism, the British authorities did not fully appreciate the threat from Al-Qaeda. The failure to gain any warning from existing information of the 9/11 attacks on the United States was an intelligence failure of the entire Western alliance, not only of the US intelligence community," the report said.

It also stated that countries such as the UK and Australia are "at particular risk because [they are close allies] of the United States, has deployed armed forces in the military campaigns to topple the Taleban regime in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and has taken a leading role in international intelligence, police and judicial cooperation against Al-Qaeda".

Australian shadow foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd claimed that the report proved Australia's support for the Iraqi invasion has placed Australia at greater risk. He said that it "turbo-charged" its profile as a potential terrorist target.

A number of governments have criticised the report. Australian Prime Minister John Howard is currently in Washington. He gave a joint press conference with Donald Rumsfeld.

"I think that people who think that terrorists pick and choose discriminately don't understand how it works. The United States had done nothing on September 11 when it (the attack on America) was done. People who think they can make a separate peace with terrorists will find that it's like feeding an alligator, hoping it eats you last," Mr Rumsfeld said.

"No country can allow its foreign and defence policy to be malleable in the hands of terrorists," Mr Howard added.

Chatham House is a non-profit NGO. Its website describes it as "one of the world's leading organizations for the analysis of international issues". It was formerly known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs.

The report was funded by the Economic and Social Research Council.

London Mayor Ken Livingstone has commented that the terrorist threat to the west results more generally from the fact that there has been "80 years of western intervention into predominantly Arab lands because of the western need for oil."


text:
User talk:62.231.149.155

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User talk:203.166.251.140

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User talk:218.121.172.99

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User talk:62.248.139.78

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title: User talk:62.248.139.78


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User talk:195.156.176.249

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title: User talk:195.156.176.249


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User talk:62.237.223.51

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User talk:193.166.81.121

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User talk:64.60.254.28

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User talk:62.255.64.7

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User talk:24.9.189.173

Welcome
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text:
User talk:203.217.13.162

Welcome
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title: User talk:203.217.13.162


text:
User talk:217.132.167.23

Welcome
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title: User talk:217.132.167.23


text:
User talk:67.188.13.46

Welcome
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title: User talk:67.188.13.46


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User talk:204.210.248.108

Welcome
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title: User talk:204.210.248.108


text:
User talk:144.139.183.182

Welcome
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title: User talk:144.139.183.182


text:
User talk:Vaxalon~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Vaxalon. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Vaxalon~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vaxalon~enwikinews


text:
User talk:63.240.210.125

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User talk:68.11.115.2

Welcome
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title: User talk:68.11.115.2


text:
Nearly 25,000 Iraqi civilians killed in Iraq, watchdog group claims

July 19, 2005

A report published by the Iraq Body Count project, a British NGO, says that 24,865 civilians have been killed in Iraq in the two years following the start of the US-led invasion in March 2003. Seventy percent of the deaths occurred after the US President George W. Bush proclaimed "the end of major combat" on May 1 2003.

The study, compiled from more than 10,000 media reports, says that 37% (9,270) civilians have been killed by US-led forces. Half of all deaths (53%, 13,178) were caused by explosives, with 60% of those (7,961) being due to air-dropped bombs. Three-quarters of the deaths from air-dropped bombs were during the invasion before May 2003.

The report also states that 3,598 have been killed since May 2003 by non-Coalition bombing incidents, while 1,904 were killed by air-dropped bombs in the same period.

The study recorded that 82% of all deaths were adult males and 9% were adult women, although half of those killed by air-dropped bombs were children. In total, women and children accounted for about 18% of all civilian deaths.

Anti-occupation forces/insurgents accounted for 9% of the deaths, while criminal violence was blamed for 36%. The 28 page dossier also claimed that the situation in Iraq is getting worse. The fatalties in the second year after the invasion were twice as high as in the first year after the end of the war. At least 42,500 civilians were reported wounded. More than a third of the report was based on the work of Reuters, the Associated Press and Agence France Presse. Three-quarters of reports had at least one primary source, while 23% had two or more.

The Iraqi government disputed the figures. The Ministry of Health's figures recorded 6,629 deaths in the year leading up to April 2005, one-third of which were due to "terrorist incidents", with the remainder due to coalition forces. The Ministry of Interior, which also records deaths in the armed forces, reported 8,175 Iraqis were killed between July 2004 and May 2005.

Reuters noted that the figures apparently fail to note the number of people killed by suicide bombers in the last 18 months - with over 2,000 lives taken by car bombers, while the report claims that only 1,000 people have been killed by suicide bombers over 24 months. Reuters also pointed out that the report may underestimate deaths, as the media - the basis for the report - focuses mainly on Baghdad.

"The international forces try to avoid civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists target civilians and try to kill as many of them as they can," the government said in a statement

The US military also disputed the figures and said it is doing everything to avoid civilian casualties. "Since the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom until now, we have categorically not targeted civilians", said Lieutenant Colonel Steve Boylan, a spokesman for the US military in Baghdad.

"The ever-mounting Iraqi death toll is the forgotten cost of the decision to go to war in Iraq. On average, 34 ordinary Iraqis have met violent deaths every day since the invasion of March 2003", said Professor John Sloboda, one of the authors of the report. He stressed that "neither the US nor the UK governments have begun to systematically measure the impact of their actions in terms of human lives destroyed."

The Iraqi Body Count group is based mainly in the Sheffield area of the United Kingdom. The co-founders are a human-rights campaigner, Hamit Dardagan, and Professor Sloboda, a psychologist at the University of Keele who is also a leading anti-war campaigner. The senior researcher is a retired librarian who last worked as the Head of Acquisitions in Keele University Library, and now runs an anti-war mailing list in the Sheffield area.

Other studies
There have been two other studies into the number of civilians killed in Iraq since March 2003.

The first to be published was a report in the British medical journal The Lancet in October 2004, stating that there had been 98,000 "excess deaths". The report was based on a questionnaire given to 998 households in 33 randomly-selected areas of Iraq, intended to be a representative sample. Of the total, 57,600 were given as being caused by accidents and disease, with the rest due to violence. The report had an extremely large margin of error - the 95% confidence interval (ie less than a 0.05% chance of being a fluke) range was from 8,000 up to 194,000.

The second report was the UN Development Program Iraq Living Conditions Survey, published in May 2005. This sampled 21,668 households in 2,200 areas, using similar selection and interpretation techniques as the Lancet study. This study recorded 24,000 "conflict-related deaths", with a 95% confidence interval of 18,000 to 29,000.


text:
Talk:Nearly 25,000 Iraqi civilians killed in Iraq, watchdog group claims

It would be interesting to see what average death rate per day was before the invasion.. broken down again, by insurgents, Iraqi military/government, crime, etc... I suspect figures may not be available. --Chiacomo (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd be surprised if saddamn kept these records and very surprised if we didnt destroy them. -- Ross Koepke Talk 17:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed... --Chiacomo (talk) 17:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about that. Saddam's trial will start soon, which I'm sure will bring some interesting information to light. Dan100 (Talk) 21:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

when even a superficial investigation will show they "duped" Saddam into starting WW3 []. Paulrevere2005 22:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Right on Dan; it's no wonder the U.S. has been delaying the trial []

BBC Pie Chart; Adult Male Casualties
The BBC has a nice pie chart: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692589.stm Hmmm, 82% of those killed were adult males. Huh.
 * Indeed. The IBC press release itself says 80% were adult males, a fact I've added to the article. Dan100 (Talk) 21:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Why are some people afraid to deal with the real meat of this article; Why has the USA killed almost 10,000 civilians?
Here is my own personal opinion about this story's revelation and why we should not be surprised at all. We(USA) always kill a lot of civilians when we fight in wars. We did it with the native american indians; we did it in WW2 by atom bombing two cities in Japan and fire bombing Tokyo; we did it in Vietnam with Napalming villages; and we do it now in Iraq with cluster bombs and random murders. Our soldiers are taught to enjoy killing which is why some,like McVeigh, don't stop when they get out of service. That's why I don't give a rat's ass how many Saddam killed; he wasn't doing it with my tax money and he wasn't carrying my flag when he did it (even though he was getting support from my government when he did it). I am sick of all the apologists for America's war crimes under the pretense of war necessity. Anyone who supports the U.S. in Iraq should go join up and help with the killing; that'll be 1 less poor kid from Alabama who has to do it because joining the Army was the only job he could get. Paulrevere2005 17:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Why should Saddam Hussein get away with all the attacks? What mind in the world would allow this sicko to just randomly kill people he doesn't like?  I'm just glad we got the Hussein dynasty out of power before Uday or Qusay took control.  --Mrmiscellanious 23:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

*Comment -The whole family were puppets of our foreign policy controllers; that's the rub:The people we elected were the puppeteers;Saddam,just another Batista/Pinochet/Marcos type hired gun. The buck stops with the American voters.. and Nicholson was right; we just can't handle the truth; but at least most us us are clever enough not to seek it out[][] [] Because,alas, the devils who have managed our foreign policy for the past 200 years care no more about 25,000 Iraqis today than they did about 500,000 Vietnamese one generation ago; and they are speaking for you and for me. Paulrevere2005 02:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It sounds not productive; perhaps I could add "well as for Japanese city bombardment, not only Tokyo but most of cities at that time was bombed, 46 prefectural cities, all except Kyoto was bombed and ..." but well though it is historical facts but unproductive as is --- perhaps it could help to achieve NPOV with additional stats casualties and murdered people by other parties including US and UK attack, if you would like to describe this topic. In my feeling the number 25,000 sounds sensetional and more boring headline like "IBCP publishes their estimation of Iraqi civilians killed in Iraq" like that" might reduce such POV tone, which Paulrevere2005 seems to care for. --Aphaia 00:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

NPOV
I'm a little disappointed this was on the Main Page when it fell so far short on the standards of Neutral point of view - if you don't agree, go have a careful read of that policy. Note in particular:

Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view as being correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one

and

when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.

When I npov'd this I didn't use any sources other than the ones already being used. Yet I could add the Iraqi government's own figures and their response, and also Reuter's own response. I could also add who the IBC actually are, which is quite enlightening.

Please let's try and keep our articles well researched, balanced, and free from bias. Dan100 (Talk) 21:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * From my own reading, print and on-line, I basically with the 25,000 figure. Hard thing to measure, and so is Hussien's own killing, reportedly in the 100,000 range, but even more difficult to measure. -Edbrown05 23:00, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm....
I used the 'database' on the IBC site to get my own totals for before 1 May 2003, and found they were several thousand lower than the numbers used in the report. Hmmmm. I've e-mailed them asking why their database doesn't give the same figures their report does. Dan100 (Talk) 12:31, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Good work,Dan. This is really the only way we can report accurate information is to do some research ourselves to corroborate the info the mainstream parrots are reporting. Paulrevere2005 16:36, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


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