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BDSM as business: Interviews with Dominatrixes

October 28, 2007

Whether the Civil War, World War II or the Iraq War, it can be challenging to face how conflict penetrates the psyche of a nation and surfaces in the nuances of life. There are thousands—if not millions—of individuals who indulge in fantasies others would deem perverse that have their nascence in some of the darkest moments of human history. It is possible someone you know pays a person to dress like a German Nazi to treat them like a “dirty Jew”, or to force them to pick cotton off the floor like a slave.

An S&M dungeon is a place where these individuals act out such taboos. Businesses that operate to meet their needs are often hidden, but they do exist and are typically legal. The clients want to remain confidential for fear of ostracism in their respective communities. As Sigmund Freud wrote, "Anyone who has violated a taboo becomes taboo himself because he possesses the dangerous quality of tempting others to follow his example." Last week Wikinews published the first in a two part series on the BDSM business: an interview with Bill & Rebecca, the owners of Rebecca’s Hidden Chamber. This week we publish the second part: an interview with three dungeon employees, Mistress Alex, Mistress Jada and Mistress Veronica. In their world, BDSM is a game, a harmless pursuit of roleplaying exercises that satiate the desires of the tabooed. These Dominatrixes are the kind of women men fantasize about, but they all look like they could be babysitting your children this Saturday night. Most likely, they will not be.

Mistress Alex has a distinctive sheen when David Shankbone walks into the room. Her moist skin cools quickly from the blow of the air conditioner she stands in front of. Just having finished an hour and a half session, she is dressed in a latex one-piece skirt and matching boots. Mistress Jada, a shapely Latina dressed in red, joins the conversation and remains throughout. When Alex needs to tend to a client, Mistress Veronica, who looks like she would be as comfortable teaching kindergarten as she would "tanning a man's hide", takes over for her.

The interview was neither sensational nor typical, but what you read may surprise, repulse, or even awaken feelings you never knew you had. Below is David Shankbone's interview with three Dominatrixes.

Starting out
'''David Shankbone: How did you get started as an S&M Mistress?
 * Alex: I’m from California and I started out by playing in various fetish clubs and I had different play partners.  I just kind of dabbled in my personal life. When I moved to New York a few years ago, I was doing the same thing with friends and I realized I was getting bored hanging out with the same people all the time—they became good friends, but I met another pro-dom.  I was talking to her about it and realized I could end up experiencing so many different things in a place like this.  And it’s true.  I meet so many different people who are into all these different things.  I’m all about variety.

'''DS: Does BDSM turn you on?
 * Alex: The majority of the time I don’t get any sexual pleasure out of it.  There are going to be times in session because of the way I’m dressed…

'''DS: Outside of work is it something that is an interest of yours?
 * Alex: A little bit, but definitely not the majority of time.

'''DS: Did it start out that it was a turn-on and then you just moved on?
 * Alex: Yeah, because I’m very experimental by nature.  I love learning about things, and I imagine you are the same way because you do all this research on different topics!

'''DS: True; tomorrow I’m talking to a Presidential candidate and the President of the ACLU.
 * Jada: Huge transition!

'''DS: Maybe not as much as you think! [Laughs]
 * Jada: [Laughs]
 * Alex: [Laughs] I would love for you to combine these two things and bring in that Republican candidate here, and then perhaps we could…somehow it would be very satisfying.

'''DS: So BDSM is something that you had a curiosity about, experienced it, you realized you had a talent, and made it into a profession?
 * Alex: I realized I was good at it and I enjoyed it; I enjoyed the variety and the different people I was hanging out with, people like Jada.  It’s much better than just playing.

'''DS: How did you start, Jada?
 * Jada: I always had an interest in S&M.  As a teenager it was one of those things that I didn’t know exactly what it was, but I was always into the fetish, the kink, the tying up, the doing all sorts of different things.  Then I was in a relationship where there was no communication. It was going down the toilet [giggles].

'''DS: Was it an S&M relationship?
 * Jada: Just a regular relationship.  There was no communication going on, nothing happening, no intimacy, and after awhile we were literally at the point where we were going to break up.  I was going to break up with him, and then he told me had a bondage fetish.  So I was like, “Fine, okay!  That’s perfect, if that’s the only problem that you have, you know, let’s do this!”

'DS: Is that why'' things were going down the toilet, because he had that desire and he wouldn’t express it?
 * Jada: Yes, he had expressed it in previous relationships, and because he expressed it he was seen as a freak.  “How dare you!  That’s the equivalent of rape!”

'''DS: So he learned not to express it and that caused him to not communicate…
 * Jada: Exactly.

'''DS: And he just assumed you were somebody who—
 * Jada: —would be that same way.  Someone who wouldn’t be into it and be like, “How could you even think something like that? That’s gross, that’s disgusting!”

'''DS: So here you were thinking he hated you, but really he just had—
 * Jada: —this one little thing, this one little fetish that really isn’t a big deal.

'''DS: Are you still with him?
 * Jada: Yes.

'''DS: Had you ever done explored BDSM before, or was it a new thing for you when he expressed it?
 * Jada: We played a little bit, because I’m just kind of kinky like that, but he never said anything.  He said nothing.  So I didn’t know what was going on or what the problem was, until he finally told me he has a fetish.  From there we went to a film shop on 42nd Street where all the porn can be found, and we found some fetish videos on bondage.  It just developed from there, and I started enjoying it more and more, and I wanted to know more about it on a psychological level than anything else.  So I started to become a dom.  I saw an ad on Craig's List.

'''DS: How long ago was that?
 * Jada: About two years ago.  I decided if I am going to learn more about it I should learn from the pros! [Giggles]

'''DS: And how long have you been doing this, Alex?
 * Alex: About two years, also.

'''DS: How long do you see yourself doing this?
 * Alex: I think I will always do it somewhat.  Professionally?  There’s going to be an end.  For myself, I usually like to do things in blocks of a few years.

'''DS: I’m very much the same way.
 * Alex: Yeah!  So I could see…I can’t imagine it anytime soon because I’m actually really happy with the way things are going right now, and I can’t imagine spending less time here.  But I imagine I will probably go down to just one day a week or I will be distracted by something else because I will be traveling or something.  So that’s for me.  I don’t know how much research you’ve done on the sex industry…you can’t really compare it with the sex industry, in places where women…it’s not like that; there’s really not an expiration, which is nice.  I think that might be a misconception.
 * Jada: In that sense, older Doms are actually more respected.
 * Alex: Yeah!  Some are more sought out, they have experience.  It’s across the board; people have different types and they want different things.  That’s really nice.  It’s not really an issue as it is…
 * Jada: Like if you were a stripper or something like that.  You can’t be a forty year old stripper; whereas a 40 year old Dom is like a Godsend!
 * Alex: I don’t know if people really know that.  And there’s people like The Baroness, who is older, and she is very much involved in the scene.  Although I don’t know if she’d consider herself professional.

'''DS: How long do you see yourself doing this, Jada?
 * Jada: I honestly couldn’t say.  It’s the same thing.

'''DS: It’s open-ended, but you do see it coming to an end at some point?
 * Jada: Well, yeah, all things come to an end at some point no matter what’s going to happen.  It’s always going to be something I enjoy; I took a break for a couple of months and then found myself coming back because I missed it.  It could be the same thing.  At any given time I could suddenly be like, “You know, I’m not sure.”

What they get asked to do
'''DS: What would be a typical request?
 * Alex: I don’t know if I can really say that, because everyone is so specific.  I mean, there are things you get requested for much more often, like foot worship or boot worship.
 * Jada: Yeah.
 * Alex: That’s something that comes up a lot…
 * Jada: And even if it’s not, you tend to incorporate it. [Giggles]

'''DS: What happens in a foot worship session?
 * Alex: It’s again, even though it sounds straight-forward, and I could see where people would think foot worship is one thing, but it manifests itself in so many different ways.  Some people like to be stepped on with feet, some people just like to look at them, others like to lick boots, some like to kiss toes, some like to rub feet—
 * Jada: Some like to give pedicures.
 * Alex: It’s kind of endless.  As many individuals as there are, they have a different approach to it.  And that’s what I find fascinating.  I always wonder, and sometimes ask them.

'''DS: Are your reactions scripted by them, such as whether you act disgusted or happy?
 * Alex: Definitely.  Some people make requests and say things like, “I like it when my Mistress is very strict with me”; others say, “I like it when it is just more conversational and when you are just being real.”  Jada and I have sessioned together, and I think we are both pretty intuitive and even if they don’t say, we sort of pick up on it.
 * Jada: Certain vibes that you get from
 * Alex: Body language, or how they’re reacting.

'''DS: What do they talk about with you?
 * Jada: Oh, it can be a various number of things.  Just about everything.

The psychology of S&M
'''DS: Do you feel like therapists?
 * Jada: Definitely.
 * Alex: Absolutely.  My last client—and I feel kind of bad, because he was willing to take a picture for you with a hood on, but I got really into the session and I wasn’t thinking about you!  I’m sorry!

'DS: [Laughs''] That’s okay.
 * Jada: [Laughs]
 * Alex: But, he has an S&M relationship with his wife, and he has seen Mistresses in the past, and he said that he needs a masturbation therapist.  “I’m masturbating too much and I’m not able to please my wife when she wants to be pleased, and I want you to discipline me!”  That was an hour and a half session.  We talked about his masturbation for half an hour, and I asked him, “Now you’re not going to go out…when are you going to masturbate next?”  He said, “Not this week.”  And I was like, “Yeah!”  To be honest, it’s different for everyone and I don’t care.  [Laughs] I don’t personally care when people masturbate, to be quite honest.
 * Jada: [Giggles]
 * Alex: But he felt like this was not the relationship he wanted with his wife, he wanted to tell me about it, and he didn’t want to talk about his wife in session.

'''DS: Do you ever get bored listening?
 * Alex: Oh, no!  I find it fascinating because everybody is so…
 * Jada: I think if you’re really into it, you never get bored.
 * Alex: I get bored when people are arrogant.  Sometimes people will top from the bottom, and that bores me.  Or if they are not honest.
 * Jada: Yeah, if they are not honest.

'''DS: Is it pretty obvious when they are not being honest with you?
 * Alex: I think so.
 * Jada: Yeah, when you’re doing session you are definitely capable of finding out when they are being honest with you.
 * Alex: I ask them questions, and sometimes when I feel like that, I’ll start interrogating them so that they’ll make a mistake because I want to really know what is going on in their head if they are not letting me know.  That kind of pisses me off a little bit.
 * Jada: Exactly.

[Rebecca comes in and tells Alex she has a client for her to meet, so she has to leave shortly]
 * Alex: I’m probably going to have a session, it sounds like.  But I just wanted to make that point about checking in where people’s heads are at; that’s something that is very important to me.  I think that is for a lot of people, although I don’t want to make generalizations because people are in the industry for a lot of different reasons.  But for me, I find it fascinating where they start out, where they finish.  Like this guy who was just here, he wants to come back on a regular basis and discipline himself.  He wants to make his life better; he wants to become a better person.  You don’t get people who come in here that often saying that.
 * Jada: It’s really rare you get people saying that.
 * Alex: I’m still high from the session, because of that conversation we had and he thinks this is going to make him a better person.

'''DS: That you are going to help him.
 * Alex: Yeah, because he feels that way.  I don’t know if this type of thing…it definitely wouldn’t help everybody out there, but it helps some people.

'''DS: The people who see you, it does help them.
 * Alex: Well, yeah, you know, for some people it is just a means to an end—it’s the only way they can get off, or whatever.  I don’t judge anyone.  But I find it really fascinating, all the different types.

'''DS: Are they typically embarrassed when they first start coming in here?
 * Alex: Some are, and some aren’t.
 * Jada: Yeah, some are and some aren’t.

'''DS: Depending on their experience or their comfort level?
 * Alex: I think it depends on how people have reacted to them in the past, as you can imagine.
 * Jada: Like the guy I was seeing.  He was originally very nervous.
 * Alex: Yeah, he was probably embarrassed.
 * Jada: We’ve had a few people come in, get nervous, and are like, “I…I…I don’t know what I should say, or what I can tell you.”

Psychological challenges
'''DS: How do you make them feel comfortable?
 * Jada: Anything they have to say, you’ve heard it before! [Laughs]
 * Alex: Yeah, sometimes they are like, “Oh, this might sound weird…” and I’m like, “Trust me, it doesn’t sound weird!” Not to make them feel like they are one of a thousand.  I try to let them know that I appreciate their being honest with me, and I find it interesting.

'''DS: What do you think in your own histories has made you so non-judgmental?
 * Alex: Well, that would be getting into personal information I wouldn’t want to talk about.
 * Jada: Yeah.  You can’t be judgmental in this industry.  You have to be open-minded.

'''DS: Alex, do people ever come in with fantasies that are Iraq War-related.
 * Alex: I haven’t.
 * Jada: I’ve had some like that.  There have been a few fetishes that are racial play, or war related.  Nazis.
 * Alex: People come here with things to work out.  Maybe they’ve been traumatized or maybe they have some issue.  They come here with things.  I haven’t run into anyone, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

'''DS: Like veterans?
 * Alex: Yeah.  I have definitely seen vets before, I know I have.

'''DS: So you were saying you have war-related?
 * Jada: I’m not sure how it develops with an individual.  But usually the request is a specific type of role play, like I am the German Nazi and this is the Jew and I have to punish him in some sense.

'''DS: Does that make you feel uncomfortable? Are there some times where you are like, “I don’t want to punish the Jew.”
 * Jada: It all depends on the person and how they are taking it.  During session you can tell whether it is going too far, or whether it is something that is very emotional for a person.  You both have to go into it understanding that it is a role play.  And a lot of times they’ll tell me, “Look, it’s okay, you can call me this, this and that.  It’s fine.”

'''DS: With experiences like that, do you experience personal growth and contend with your own hang-ups or why certain things bother you?
 * Jada: It really does.  It’s surprising how much you learn about yourself and another person.  A lot of things you learn from here—which for some people is surprising—you apply to your own life.

'''DS: Can you given an example?
 * Jada: Well, you learn to be more open-minded to people.  More understanding to a man’s needs rather than, “This is the way you’re supposed to be.  This is the way society has made you.  You can’t be a sissy maid, you have to be the macho man all the time.”  You know?  It makes you understand that there are multiple sides to everybody rather than what you see is what you get.  I have worked here for a few months and I am still surprised by the people who come in.

[Rebecca comes in and asks if we will leave The Blue Room for Alex’s session and go to The Gold Room to continue the interview]

Psychology II
'''DS: Is it important for you to know the motivations of the clients?
 * Jada: It is something you need to be aware of and something you need to be able to tell during your session.  You feel it, you sense it, by speaking with someone and dealing with someone in that way, you are able to tell whether it is an actual problem that they have.  They are very open with us and they tell us a lot of things.  You are in constant discussion.  It’s not just the physical aspect of S&M, where there’s the whipping and spanking, it’s also very verbal.  You are constantly talking to each other and there’s a lot of times where you can tell whether it’s just a regular fetish or whether it is an actual psychological problem these people have.  And there have been a few people like that.

'''DS: Can you give an example?
 * Jada: Just random people who have certain things happen in their life.

'''DS: Like what?
 * Jada: Anything really.  Like a trauma from school or problems with a family member.  Things like that.

'''DS: How would you treat that person differently than someone who is coming here for the pleasure or the thrill of it?
 * Jada: I would be more aware and pay more attention to where the session is taking them.  You really need to be fully aware of everything that is going on.

'''DS: What would be a point where you didn’t feel comfortable with the session?
 * Jada: His reaction, if I see he is starting to fall deeper and deeper into depression, whereas sometimes that has happened in sessions.  Sometimes a guy will cry during the session, or sob uncontrollably.  Sometimes he will get angry and start screaming.

'''DS: In both of those situations, how would you handle it?
 * Jada: You start to console them.  That’s when you know you are no longer in that session, that It is no longer a role play.  That is where the psychological really comes into it, when the psychology helps, to be there and to listen.  Sometimes they are like, “I killed my pet dog by accident and I’ve kept this inside for me for so long!”  Or, “I had a close family member just pass away and I don’t know how to deal with that right now.”  “My girlfriend just left me—“ I mean, you hear all these stories!  One after the other after the other, and it’s just like, “Wow!”   If one is crying, you console them; if one is angry you try to calm them down.

'''DS: Do you give them absolution?
 * Jada: Yeah, “It wasn’t your fault what happened.  You were five years old, how would you know what this would do to the dog, you know?”  A lot of cases you have to help them out with it and at the end of the session they just feel so much better about themselves.

'''DS: What do you do when someone gets angry?
 * Jada: Usually just try to bring them down and find out about what it is that gets them so angry.  A lot of times they are not going to come out and say, “This is what is bothering me.”  They are going to veil it so much that you are trying to knock down so many walls they put up, and finally it can be one word, one comment, a simple thing that you might say that might trigger something, and then you realize what happened.  A lot of times you try to keep it within the role play, as well, which is what really makes the session great, but you just calm them down.

Comfort levels in the sessions
'''DS: Do you ever act as a Sub?
 * Jada: I have before, yes.

'''DS: Do you feel comfortable as a Sub?
 * Jada: Sometimes, yeah.  I actually realized I am more of a Dom than a Sub, but the way I started out is that you have to try both aspects of it to really get yourself inside the slave’s head during the session.  It helps you understand more what they are going through, what they are feeling, whether it is physical, emotional, psychological.  You understand more, and you are able to go through a session perfectly having subbed before.

'''DS: There is never sex involved?
 * Jada: No.

'''DS: But almost always masturbation?
 * Jada: Some, but then you get individuals who are just about the fetish, it is all they want.  They just want the woman towering over them and telling them what to do.  People who are tired of always being in control of everything.

'''DS: Have you ever felt threatened during a session?
 * Jada: I personally haven’t.  I’m not going to say it wouldn’t be an issue in the industry because I am not sure if anyone else has experienced that.  I’ve worked at two other dungeons, the Den of Inequity when I first started Domming.  They relocated to Los Angeles. I also started working at Pandora’s Box.  I didn’t really like it there.

'''DS: Any particular reason why?
 * Jada: It was just a feeling.  I decided to come here, and I’ve been here only a few months.

'''DS: Have you noticed a difference here at Rebecca’s?
 * Jada: Oh yeah, no dungeon is the same.  No matter what dungeon you go to, from staff to the way they treat you to the type of dungeon they are.  Some dungeons go for that German hostile-looking place like you see in the horror movies, with black walls and chains everywhere.  Whereas here we tend to cater to people just coming into the fetish who are afraid of things like that because they get nervous if the first thing they see is Mistress in a hole in leather and a whip.  It’s like, “Ahh! She wants to hurt me and rip me apart,” or something like that.

Advice for those who want to be a Mistress
'''DS: [Laughs]  If you were to give advice to a woman who was looking at becoming a Mistress, what would you say?
 * Jada: I would say they should be open-minded and that they can’t be judgmental in this profession.

[Veronica comes in to join the interview] '''DS: We were talking about advice for young women looking to become Mistresses.
 * Veronica: Someone with no experience with BDSM, or someone with some experience of the lifestyle?

'''DS: Can a person who has no experience really just jump into it?
 * Veronica: No.

'''DS: So I guess someone with some experience, because a person with no experience would probably fail utterly, right?
 * Veronica: Well, no.
 * Jada: It depends, here.
 * Veronica: A lot of the time men like new fresh faces, so she’ll get picked for a session regardless of her experience level.  It’s not all about your expertise.  A lot of time they just want someone who looks a certain way.  It’s very visual for certain people.  So, if you are a black woman with a big ass and that’s what they came here for in looking for someone to dominate them.

Strange requests
'''DS: That was one of the things Jada and I were talking about earlier: if someone comes in and says, “Treat me like I’m a dirty Jew” or “Treat me like I’m a bad slave” is it difficult for you to bring yourself to that level?
 * Veronica: Yeah, I had a guy who wanted me to treat him like a slave and call him a nigger, and stuff like that.  It was difficult for me but I got over it.   I had to step back and look at it as someone’s fetish and whenever someone tries to get me to do something that is a little psychological and walks the line between being abused or not, I don’t try to judge their method for dealing with it.  I mean, that’s the way he is trying to deal with this, and there’s no research saying it is bad for him to explore that, or that it’s good.

'''DS: You intellectualize it. So you were able to treat him like a slave?
 * Veronica: Oh yes, I made him pick cotton off the floor…stuff like that.

 * Jada: I remember you telling me about that!
 * Veronica: Yeah [Laughs]

'''DS: You made him pick cotton off the floor?
 * Veronica: Yeah, he was fun and he was so appreciative, and it really got me past my hang-up.  That was one psychological hurdle I overcame.
 * Jada: A lot of times they know you may feel uncomfortable with it and they’ll understand.  Some of them will know you won’t like it but that you’ll try to do it anyway.

'''DS: What if someone wanted to treat you that way? If you were Jewish…
 * Veronica: I can separate myself from that enough and see it as a game.
 * Jada: Yeah, I’d say the same thing
 * Jada: It’s not reality.

'''DS: What is your ethnicity, Jada?
 * Jada: I’m Puerto Rican.

'''DS: So if someone wanted to treat you like a dirty wetback, you’d be able to go with that?
 * Jada: Yeah, sure, totally.
 * Veronica: My favorite kinds of sessions are when people want to punish me for being a Mistress!  That was one of the hottest sub sessions I had ever done, because it was an interrogation session and I had to confess everything I had done to men, and all that stuff.
 * Jada: And by being a sub, you understand more what they are going through and what they are feeling.  So if I was to have a session where it was like, “Oh, you filthy little wetback!  Figure out if you want to be a commonwealth or a state, bitch!” something like that, you know.
 * Veronica: That’s kind of hot! [Laughs]
 * Jada: Yeah! [Laughs]

'''DS: Who is Mental Dental?
 * Veronica: He’s a very, very old man and he likes to have his teeth pulled on and have you pretend that you are a dental hygienist and talk about bicuspids and all that stuff.  It’s not that uncommon; other people have that fetish.  You have to really act like you are well-trained as a dental assistant.  The question about boundaries you asked earlier, though, goes back to the question about somebody who had no experience.  Boundaries are the most important thing you have to develop, and I’m sorry I have to speak so abstractly about it, but you don’t really learn that unless you go into session and discover what you will and won’t do.

What they discover in themselves
'''DS: Do you also think you find out more about yourself in those types of sessions?
 * Veronica: Oh yes.  Yes.
 * Jada: Definitely
 * Veronica: And more about what I do, because it’s playing with taboos, especially with psychological role plays like that.  As much as people want to deny it, taboos are kind of hot.

'''DS: Well, they typically are, right?
 * Veronica: Yeah…yeah!

'''DS: Who wants to do the missionary position their whole fucking lives, kind of thing, right?
 * Veronica: Yeah!  Yeah! [Laughs]
 * Jada: [Laughs]

'''DS: I don’t know if I’ll put that in - it makes me sound like I'm getting into it! [Laughs] Maybe I’ll do some photos of you two beating me! Just for the article! Just for the article! [Laughs]
 * Jada: [Laughs]  Tie me up and pinch my nipples for knowledge! [Laughs]

'''DS: Have you been asked to carry out any War related fantasies?
 * Veronica: That’s a good question.  I have sessioned with a few veterans, but it hasn’t revolved around being in a war.   It’s people who would be coming here regardless of whether they had been in a war or not.  Under a larger umbrella of people who come here who have experienced a trauma have similar sessions.  It is interesting for people to come back and want to live certain traumatic events.  It’s challenging.  You have to play a role.  I have people who want me to be a Nazi who experienced that in some way.

'''DS: That seems cliché.
 * Veronica: Yeah, it’s cliché.

'''DS: If people come in with post-traumatic stress disorder, are there special considerations?
 * Veronica: Yeah.
 * Jada: Yes, I think we’ve dealt with a lot of people who have those issues.
 * Veronica: I can’t say I have had anyone who wanted to re-enact an Abu Ghraib experience, though.

Boundaries
'''DS: Are there places you just won’t go?
 * Veronica: Psychological?  No.

'''DS: What about physically?
 * Veronica: Yes, I have my boundaries, but I prefer not to define them.
 * Jada: I think everyone does.  It would always depend, it would be difficult to state what would be my boundary.  One minute it can be one thing, and another client might come in and say, “Can you do this, this and that,” and the answer is no.  [Laughs]

'''DS: Have you ever had a session where you felt threatened?
 * Veronica: No.  I feel quite safe here, because they know we outnumber them.  Okay, in terms of boundaries, if I’m a sub and the man is a dom, I don’t let him blindfold me AND put a gag in my mouth, because then there is no way to tell what he is going to do and alert anyone.  There are certain safe words that you use, and if people don’t respect those boundaries then you remind them of the boundaries or else you can end the session.

'''DS: Have you had to end a session?
 * Veronica: Yes.

'''DS: Can you tell me about a time?
 * Veronica: One time somebody was really forceful about wanting to see my panties.  It was a trampling session, where you step on his face.    He wanted me to step on his face, but he didn't want me to step on his face, he wanted to look up my skirt.  So I ended the session and I told him I knew that he was doing that, because every time I tried to step on his face he would move it and try to look up my skirt.  So I ended it.  He was an asshole.

'''DS: Will you do full nudity?
 * Veronica: No.
 * Jada: No.

'''DS: Topless?
 * Veronica: Yeah, it’s pretty common that we are topless.

'''DS: Is full nudity uncommon?
 * Veronica: No, I don’t think so.

'''DS: Why do you prefer not to do it?
 * Veronica: I just don’t feel comfortable, and if I don’t feel comfortable I just don’t do it.  And I think a lot of people will do that because they want to please the customer and have them come back, but ultimately I don’t think that is good for you psychologically.
 * Jada: Yes, if you are not 100% with everything you do, then it’s going to affect you.
 * Veronica: If you don’t enjoy what you are doing, you shouldn’t be there.

'''DS: What’s the difference between obedience and submission?
 * Veronica: Huh, that’s a good question
 * Jada: That’s a really good question.
 * Veronica: Obedience, I would say, is not as intense as submission.  Submission is they want to serve you and have you be a Goddess to them.
 * Jada: They are doing it willingly, whereas obedience is ‘’you have to’’
 * Veronica: Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
 * Jada: They have to do it.  Submission is more they want to do it.
 * Veronica: I feel like obedience is completing tasks for somebody—
 * Jada: Yeah, “Go get me a glass of milk!” [Laughs]
 * Veronica: But submission is, “I am going to put my foot in your face and have you lick the bottom of my boot!”

'''DS: How do you know that line between personal and impersonal in such a personal experience?
 * Veronica: First, we don’t get a real chance to talk to them.  They just want a fantasy and a lot of time they don’t want you to know the motivations behind it, because maybe they are a little disturbed by it.  You only have a small window to chat with them at the end, and it’s usually superficial.  You want them to maintain the idea of who you are.  You never ever want to let them know who you are, really, because that would snatch the fantasy of this power woman who is here because she enjoys making men feel like shit!

'''DS: “Oh, I love kittens!”
 * Veronica: [Laughs]  Yeah, let me tell you about my cats!
 * Jada: That’s true. [laughs]
 * Veronica: I like Art History and I talk to people about that, about galleries and museums.

'''DS: Do you think BDSM leads to domestic violence at all?
 * Veronica: No!  Not at all!
 * Jada: It’s the media that makes that connection, but I honestly have not ever heard of it.  It goes against everything S&M is, which is about consent, about the fact that you have somebody giving themselves to you.  It’s all about trust.  It’s why we even have these safe words here.  It’s for the fact that if anything goes above and beyond anything they want, you can just say, “Now I want you to stop.”
 * Veronica: You want to give people the level of pain that THEY want, so it’s not about going off on people and beating the crap out of them willy-nilly without consent.  Sometimes if they want to be taken past that level of pain they have experienced before, and they get into deep, deep places, you hurt them more than they are used to.  But I’m not here because I want to take my aggressions out on them, although some of the real serious people ARE sort of vampires like that and really want you to hate them and take aggression out on them.  You can’t really group the clients in one cluster.  Most of them who come in here are really smart, intellectual people—
 * Jada: Who wouldn’t hurt a fly!
 * Veronica: They can separate fantasy playing from the harsh reality of domestic dysfunction.
 * Jada: It’s the same with child pornography.  Just because they have a schoolgirl fetish doesn’t mean they want to actually go out there and prey upon school kids.

'''DS: Is that one that’s common?
 * Jada: I think that’s common with EVERY man! [Laughs]

'''DS: [Laughs]  Britney Spears didn’t get where she is on her singing talent.
 * Jada: [Laughs] Exactly!  I think it’s common with every man.
 * Veronica: That goes into another thing, because with some people it feels like you ARE sometimes making it okay for them to have these certain fantasies and some people, they know it is wrong and they would never do that, and feel it is a way to get it out.  You are always walking that line.
 * Jada: I think it comes down to the individual.
 * Veronica: It’s not the majority of people, definitely.
 * Jada: What it honestly is, is people using this who already have those problems, pedophiles and abusers, who use this as an outlet because they can get away with it.   And that’s really not what we are about, either.  A lot of times we will see people like that and ban them from the dungeons.

'''DS: Are there certain known people who are banned?
 * Veronica: Yes, it is usually people who get really obsessive and have created scenes.  Like Ernest.  He has not done anything bad, like try to beat somebody up, but he got into a screaming match with one of the phone girls about some strange detail of his visit.  People who are obviously not together.  I think he has a serious mental illness.

BDSM Culture
'''DS: What is some of the literature that is considered classic?
 * Jada: Story of O.  The Crimes of Love.
 * Veronica: Story of O.  Marquis de Sade.  There is so much S&M erotica.  I don’t read much of it.
 * Jada: I do.  I’m such a pervert!
 * Veronica: Perverted, filthy, filthy whore.  [Laughs]
 * Jada: At the Den of Inequity we had a required reading list that you wouldn’t be considered a Mistress if you didn’t read these books.  Story of O, Crimes of Love by Marquis de Sade.  For any Mistress coming in wanting to know more about it, I would recommend The Mistress Manual.  S&M 101, that’s a huge one that really breaks it down for you.
 * Veronica: Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns.  Midori’s Bondage.
 * Jada: Midori’s very well known when it comes to Japanese bondage.  There’s different bios of people that you don't know if they are real, like I Was a Teenage Dominatrix.

'''DS: Are there certain films?
 * Jada: The Secretary.  The Secretary was literally true to form, two people finding each other.  It goes so much more deeper than S&M.  Maggie Gyllenhaal was great in that, it was just a fantastic movie.   A lot of people can relate to it where it’s just this random occurrence where two people meet and they have this connection, and it becomes much more than BDSM.
 * Veronica: Blue Velvet

'''DS: One of my favorites – David Lynch.
 * Veronica: Yeah!  The scene where she is submitting him.

'''DS: “Hit me!”
 * Veronica: Yeah.  Any film where there is a power dynamic, people will sexualize it.

'''DS: What’s a mainstream movie that turns you on?
 * Veronica: Dangerous Liaisons!

'''DS: Another favorite of mine. Hoo Hoo! The hate hoots!
 * Veronica: [Laughs]

'''DS: What about some BDSM films?
 * Jada: Harmony Productions – these are production companies.

'''DS: Harmony.
 * Veronica: Kink.com
 * Jada: Savage Productions, which is more into the pain aspect.   These are ones that are really into it.  Julie Simone with Harmony.  Den of Inequity was making their own movies for awhile.

'''DS: Would you do videos?
 * Veronica: Hell yeah!  But I haven’t done any.
 * Jada: When I was first started I was very nervous and scared because it is something that is out there and anybody will be able to obtain.  That’s one thing when you are first starting out you have to be aware of, is not rushing into everything right away and then you realize it is something you don’t enjoy.

'''DS: And then you’re running for Congress ten years later!
 * Jada: Exactly! [Laughs]
 * Veronica: [Laughs]
 * Jada: First Lady, hey!

'''DS: “Oh, shit, I forgot about that!”
 * Jada: Completely forgot about that one right there!
 * Veronica: Different Loving – he explores psychology.
 * Jada: Carrie’s Story.  That’s another.

'''DS: Are there certain celebrities people have BDSM fantasies about and they want to incorporate them into the session?
 * Veronica: I get told I look like people.  But no.
 * Jada: No.
 * Veronica: You try not to get too personal with people.

'''DS: Do you all network amongst yourselves?
 * Veronica: Yeah, we call each other up.
 * Jada: A lot of the Mistresses are well-connected with a lot of the other dungeons.  So a lot of times we’ll tell each other.

'''DS: Do you all hang out?
 * Veronica: Yeah, at fetish parties and we go out together.
 * Jada: You end up seeing each other and know each other.

'''DS: Are there certain clubs where you all hang out?
 * Jada: Paddles.
 * Veronica: What is the place on Clinton and Delancey?  There’s a once-a-month fetish party.  That’s one of them.  Otto’s; a lot of Mistresses hang out at Otto’s for some reason.
 * Jada: Some of us will have this one bar where it’s like, ‘Hey! We’re all here!’
 * Veronica: I’m not into the Goth scene, but a lot of women who do this are in the vampire thing.
 * Jada: I’m not into the Goth scene, but I do like vampires….
 * Veronica: [Laughs]

Dating for Dominatrixes
'''DS: Are you single?
 * Veronica: Yes.

'''DS: When you date, do you tell guys what you do?
 * Veronica: Ummm, yes.  Yes, I do.

'''DS: Is that a first date conversation? A third date conversation?
 * Veronica: The first date.  I like to be very up front with people, because this is what I do, this is what I see myself doing for a long time, so if they are not cool with it, then fuck that.

'''DS: What kind of reaction do you typically get?
 * Veronica: I typically get, “Wow, I’m really turned on by that.”
 * Jada: I’ve gotten that from a friend.
 * Veronica: And then they’re concerned about, “Well, how much do you do…?” and then it gets into the whole ownership of my body.  IF somebody asks me that, I typically don’t see them anymore.

'''DS: Because it then becomes about what?
 * Jada: Then you have no control over anything.  It becomes not safe.
 * Veronica: Yeah, men a lot of the time, when you are in an industry like this, don’t want you go expose certain parts of yourself because they feel that you are ‘’theirs’’, so when somebody is like that, it really turns me off.

'''DS: What do you mean?
 * Veronica: Alright, so, if I told certain men that I date that I go topless in session, that would make them feel very uncomfortable because that’s then supposed to be only for ‘’their’’ eyes, right?  Which is ridiculous.  I haven’t been dating men so much lately.
 * Jada: Is that what turned you off?
 * Veronica: No no, that’s not it at all.  Women are a lot more amenable to that sort of thing.  More sophisticated.

'''DS: What do women you date say about it?
 * Veronica: A lot of women I’ve dated have experience with this industry, so it’s not really an issue at all.  SO, I don’t have to formulate an answer to any question because they are already involved.

'''DS: Is that a relief?
 * Veronica: Yes!  Yeah, it really is.  To not be judged for it, and not tip toe around what I do.

'''DS: How long do you think you’ll do this for?
 * Veronica: Probably another five years.

'''DS: Then what do you think you’ll do?
 * Veronica: I’m getting my graduate degree in art history, and I work at a magazine, so I’m expecting that to gel into something.


text:
Talk:BDSM as business: Interviews with Dominatrixes

Original Reporting notes
Interviews conducted in person on October 3, 2007. --David Shankbone 21:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Pluralization?
This is a really cool story. But the classicist in me has to cringe when a word unchanged from the latin is pluralized by english rules. It's like saying bacteriums or matrixes. I looked at a few dictionaries and, though 'dominatrices' is always first, about half include 'dominatrixes' as an alternative. Although notably, while I was writing this firefox just underlined the second spelling as incorrect. I guess that most dominatrices don't give a hoot about latin cognates, but the pedant in me just had to drop my 2c in. 74.136.216.158 04:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, that picture is a lot hotter than you see in my local newspaper. Out of curiousity, what's the raunchiest picture you could include in wikinews that would be 'allowed?'  I know that wikipedia is not censored, but how does that cross over here? I guess I'm just too lazy to sift through the rules myself, if there is any hard and fast rule on that.  74.136.216.158 04:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Dominatrixes" is commonly accepted if not in The Oxford Dictionary, at least in the BDSM community (and on Wikipedia as well). As to the photo, it's hot, but there is no nudity involved.  Since we aren't censored, I think it comes down to judgment calls, and here it was the only photo with all three interviewees, who are all clothed; it's also illustrative of the subject matter in the article.  I don't think it is something that needs a lot of consideration.  Our sex/BDSM industry-related articles and photography will not be prolific.  That said, I would *love* to see Brian McNeil or Steven Fruitsmaak interview the head of the Prostitute Union in the The Netherlands.  --David Shankbone 04:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is "B"?
under "Advice for those who want to be a Mistress", there's the line "B: We train people here." where "B" is neither bolded or identified (is that Bill?), and the line ids not indented, but I'm not sure if that was intended. 74.56.65.168 02:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was Bill. He popped his head for a few moments during the interview but I chased him out.  I meant to remove those lines from the transcription.  Thanks for pointing it out.  I'll strip it out.  --David Shankbone 03:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why should he be chased out. Why are his comments not fit for the interview? --SVTCobra 03:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the interview was with the dominatrixes, and not with Bill, who I had already interviewed for over an hour. I wanted employers and employees separate.  --David Shankbone 05:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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$1m offer for NBC to include U.S. presidential candidate Gravel in TV debate

October 29, 2007 Currency hedge fund operator Gregory Chase was alerted by internet sources that former Senator Mike Gravel, a Democratic presidential candidate in the race for presidency, will be excluded from the latest upcoming debate (that will be held this Tuesday at Drexel University and broadcast on MSNBC). Chase immediately took action by contacting NBC executives, who are charge of the debate.

The letter was sent and it includes an explanation as to why NBC should not censor Gravel, and also holds an offer of US$1 million to include Gravel. The US$1 million offer could be given to NBC in exchange for allowing the senator to participate in the 2-hour debate, by either Chase purchasing a million dollars worth of advertising space on their network, donating the million to NBC's favorite charity, or giving the million dollars to NBC's parent company, General Electric.

The decision made by Chase to give the million dollars to NBC is due to criteria that Gravel did not meet, which includes the following; having campaigned in New Hampshire and/or Iowa at least 14 times in the past year, not polling high enough in national polls, and Sen. Gravel's campaign had not raised more than US$1 million.

According to the Gravel for President campaign, Gravel reportedly visited either New Hampshire or Iowa at least 14 times since his announcement on April 17, 2006, and according to a recent poll by CNN, Gravel is tied with fellow candidates Rep. Dennis Kucinich, Sen. Joe Biden, and Sen. Chris Dodd and 1% behind Gov. Bill Richardson.

The fundraising requirement is the only criteria not achieved.

Below is the letter in full that was sent to NBC and Democratic National Committee executives.

Dear NBC Executives,

My name is Gregory Chase, I live in New Hampshire, and I run a hedge fund that trades currencies. On a personal basis, separate from Senator Mike Gravel's campaign, I am making an independent expenditure of a greater magnitude than what some other candidates' campaigns will spend in the state through the primary. I am sending statewide direct mail, installing lawn signs, and running ads supporting Senator Mike Gravel every day between now and the New Hampshire primary in the state's three largest newspapers: The Union Leader, The Concord Monitor, and The Nashua Telegraph.

It was with great disappointment that I learned that NBC decided to exclude Senator Gravel, and only Senator Gravel, from the field of Democratic candidates for their October 30th 2007 debate at Drexel University in Philadelphia. I learned about Senator Gravel by watching televised debates earlier this year. In my opinion his ideas regarding foreign policy, military spending, and energy independence are advanced relative to the other candidates. I would like Senator Gravel’s ideas to be heard.

NBC cited fund raising as a criteria for inclusion in this debate, stating that a candidate must have raised $1 million to participate. Most current and aspiring politicians, along with the general public, believe money and special interests play too large a part in elections. I don't understand why a certain level of fund raising is a requirement to participate in a presidential debate. Senator Gravel is proud of the fact that that his candidacy is built on ideas, not cash.

As you know, polls taken at this point in the primary measure name recognition more than where votes will actually be cast. The public is just starting to focus on the upcoming primary. Once New Hampshire voters learn about Senator Gravel, and they will, I believe that a substantial number of voters will decide that Senator Gravel's ideas are more in line with their own than with any other candidate's. NBC is doing New Hampshire and the nation a disservice by excluding Senator Gravel. Your company is censoring a multi-term United States senator, a veteran, and a patriot.

If it would help get Senator Gravel back into the debate, I offer to purchase $1 million of advertising from NBC, or simply pay NBC $1 million in exchange for the service of allowing Senator Gravel to participate in your debate.

As of October 26, 2007, Chase has not received a response from NBC regarding the offer.


text:
Comments:A Million Dollar Offer to NBC and GE to Include Fmr. Senator Mike Gravel in Debate

Caps
I believe million, dollar, offer, include, and debate should not be capped. 98.204.70.215 23:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


text:
User talk:216.23.162.164

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!JoshuaZ 23:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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title: User talk:216.23.162.164


text: Category:Mike Gravel

title: Category:Mike Gravel


text:
User talk:GageS

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Adambro 23:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:GageS


text:
Cristina Kirchner set to win Argentinian presidential elections

October 28, 2007

Cristina Fernández de Kirchner of the center political front Frente para la Victoria won over 45% of votes in today's Presidential elections in Argentina, according to exit polls of the national media agencies. Elisa Carrió, her main adversary, is predicted to have won some 24% of the estimated 27 million votes. If this would be the case, 'Cristina' would win the elections in the first round, as the Argentinian electoral law states that to win the elections, someone has to obtain more than 40% of votes, and the difference with the next candidate has to be over 10%. The exit polls say the in the province of Buenos Aires, Daniel Scioli has gained more than half of votes.

Voting started this morning at 08:00 local time, and Cristina Kirchner was the favourite candidate to succeed her husband, current President of Argentina Néstor Kirchner, who decided not to run for a second four-year term, without giving any explanation. Mrs Kirchner consistently used her first name during her electoral campaign, just like Hillary Clinton does in the United States. Clinton is also a lawyer and a senator wanting to succeed her husband as President. But Cristina replied recently: "I don't want to be compared with Hillary Clinton or with Evita Perón, or with anybody... There's nothing better than being yourself."

Mrs Kirchner's husband is very popular because of the successful economic reforms after the economy collapsed six years ago. The current President oversaw steep reductions in poverty and unemployment rates. This was the reason for Cristina's campaign slogan, Sabemos como hacerlo, 'we know how to do it.' However, accusations of corruption have emerged during the last year, and rising inflation rates are becoming problematic, while there are concerns that the government's inflation statistics are flawed. Crime rates have also been a key campaign issue.

Several voting offices had long waiting times and voting was extended for one hour until 19:00 local time (UTC 16:00). There were also various protests because of the lack of voting forms. A spokesperson for candidate Roberto Lavagna, who might become third in the Presidential race, said there was a "systematic lack" of voting forms. Anibal Fernández, Minister of the Interior, said that this was the responsibility of the provincial authorities.

While voting, Mrs Kirchner told the press how important the right to vote was for her, in a reference to the military dictatorship of 1976-1983. "When I was 18 I couldn't vote, so this [voting] is very important... It's important that in the tranquility of democracy, citizens can decide in what kind of country they want to live," Mrs Kirchner said.

Eight new provincial governors and new members for half the parliament and a third of the senate will also be elected today.


text:
User talk:Jigsaw

Wikinews is not Wikipedia
They are separate organizations to a large extent with different people. As a piece of advice: referring to Wikinews as Wikipedia isn't going to make people here likely to listen to your arguments. JoshuaZ 00:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless you have a doppelganger who's running around trying to protect Dragonfiend, I have a hard time believing that they aren't rather similar to each other, or at the very least there's an awful lot of 'kissing cousins'. I'm sure you'll forgive me if I see you as a Wikipedian first. Jigsaw 01:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you mean me personally then you are certainly correct; my ties to Wikipedia are much stronger than my ties to Wikinews. However, for many of the people here that isn't true. For example, Brian has no more than a handful of edits to Wikipedia but is one of the most productive editors at Wikinews. In any event, if you are trying to get people here to listen to you, conflating this project and Wikipedia will not help your goals. JoshuaZ 01:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to determine if Jigsaw isn't just a sock puppet of Rob Balder or at the very least a good friend who occasionally uses the same IP. An interesting set of responses from him to say the least.
 * Umm. A) Who is Rob Balder. B) Why do we (wikinews) care (if he is not using a sock to manipulate community will, or other devious things, I don't care). C) Why did you post this in the middle of another conversation, almost to make it look like someone else wrote this comment. Basically whats the deal with this comment. Bawolff ☺☻ 04:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

 * A. A vocal critic who the user Jigsaw defends and acts and seems to act as proxy for.
 * B. Someone in citation on one of the two articles Jigsaw has participated in.
 * C. Human error, for which I apologize
 * Trying to lessen the impact Jigsaw/Balder's war on Dragonfiend may have. The entire process has become factionalized.
 * So let me get this straight. You feel that by randomly accusing Jigsaw of doing stuff your not sure if he is doing or not, that will lesson the disputes he is engaged in and stop the sides of the disputes from essentially diliking each other? Bawolff ☺☻ 00:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, What?! . . . If you need proof of my identity, I have my own webcomic previously mentioned further down on the talk page, so I'll be glad to reference it again - Last Resort, which unlike Rob Balder's Partially Clips (a comic I don't even read on a regular basis), actually has drawn artwork instead of clip art, and a significantly different writing style to boot.
 * Furthermore, I HAVE worked on several other articles besides this one; it just so happens I started working on (and assertively defended/enhanced) this article first because I happen to like Schlock Mercenary and picked up on the story from there; I have an several-years-older Wikipedia account, but I needed to create a new one for Wikinews, hence my relative 'youth' here.
 * As I have stated previously, I have a definite interest in webcomics, hence my stances thus far. I am by no means a 'sock' of Balder's or anyone else, and furthermore I am highly offended that you wish to compare me to him; my mouth is significantly cleaner, for starters. --Jigsaw (Talk) 15:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S.: Dragonfiend, as far as I'm concerned, is merely the biggest target around for the uninitiated to pick on. My analysis of DragonFiend's edits so far seems to indicate that the only webcomic she actually cares about is Fetus-X, a comic that next to nobody actually seems to heard of even WITHIN the affected populace, and yet it's one of the top 10 pages she focuses on (based on the number of edits, according to WikiDashboard). I can only conclude that Dragonfiend does not, in fact, 'hate webcomics'; she just loves Fetus-X and hates everything else that could prevent it from being seen as a 'unique snowflake', if you will. I know I should WP:AGF, but Dragonfiend's behavior in this regard makes me wonder if she has her own stake here. --Jigsaw (Talk)
 * This from someone who so vehemently denied my comments as merely circumstantial ad hominem [argument]. I mistook these IPs for yours 216.75.183.127 and then traced those IPs back to another forum R. Balder waxed "poetically" on and smelled a rat.  Balder's entitlement post where he seemed to threaten some kind of paper tiger style lawsuit against wikipedia offended me greatly and I'm sorry to bleach you with the same chemical but the argument ran together there.  To clearly state my position in all of this, I don't think Dragonfiend actually did all that much wrong, and I think under the circumstances the people who have moved to return deleted articles have done everything right except in the burning in effigy of this editor.

15:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC) Actually, Jigsaw, there is a strong anti-Wikipedia bias here at Wikinews, one I find unproductive. Perhaps if you did not pursue what seems like an SPA agenda and stuck around, tried to write some more articles besides just the one, you would be enlightened to how they are different. --David Shankbone 02:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * First thing: I would have appreciated you explaining what an SPA was to begin with. As you (and a few of your colleagues) have been quick to repeatedly point out, I am not familiar with Wikipedia/Wikinews in general, although I do have an (older) Wikipedia account. I am, however, familiar enough with a few niche wikis to know what I'm doing.

 * Second thing: The level of hostility here is not making me want to edit any more entries, especially seeing the treatment I have received over my efforts on this one. This perceived hostility is probably also making me push harder on this article than I would otherwise, but it certainly doesn't give me any better an impression of how Wikinews or Wikipedia is run. I can and am a worthwhile contributor to other projects, and simply put, if I feel that the heavy-handed actions of a few moderators and other users effectively silences a motivated, interested influx of new, passionate users... then obviously wikinews already has enough contributors that my efforts are neither needed nor wanted. Jigsaw 17:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand your frustration, and I apologize for any perceived hostility. What is the point of the article?  --David Shankbone 17:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The article over here is about a co-ordinated protest of Wikipedia's Notability Policies by the webcomics community (which I am a part of), and I am deeply interested in making sure that not only does the article come to light, but that some acceptable, accurate, achievable, and most importantly consistant standard of Notability comes into effect on Wikipedia about which webcomics can be posted there or not.

 * While I will admit I have my own reasons for seeing this come to light (my own comic, Last Resort, among other things), I find the entire incident to not only be a hostile environment to new editors and fans interested in further promotion of their fandoms, but also part of a disturbing trend towards Deletionism on Wikipedia in general, which is one reason among many that I haven't exercised my Wikipedia account in some time.

 * Call me a SPA if it seriously makes you feel better, but I'd hope that I have a certain level of expertise in this that you take into account. Besides, even on the SPA article itself, it says there's nothing inherently wrong with being one (especially for users with a certain field of expertise), and new users have to start somewhere. Jigsaw 17:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I support the publication of the article - I think it looks fine. --David Shankbone 18:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input; glad to be a little more enlightening. (Also, hope you dun mind my reordering of your last message to make the thread a little more legible, since you put it in the middle of my last remarks.) Jigsaw 18:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Jigsaw, I haven't seen any hostility to you here. Responding to your comments, disagreeing with you, politely giving pointers, and politely explaining when you might not have good understanding of the general context are not "hostility". If there was a specific comment that was hostile, please consider this to be an apology on behalf of the community. JoshuaZ 17:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Excellent username, by the way. Anything to do with Saw? Thunderhead - (talk - email - contributions) 22:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!
 * One of the reasons, yes. ^_^ Jigsaw 00:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Sticking around?
Well, you seem to have felt there was a little hostility here... We have a mix of people, some who are very much Wikipedia supporters, some who are a little wary of the project and others.

I'd hope you see the fact that we got the webcomics article out the door in pretty good shape as an indication that this is a project where you can work.

So... I'm inviting you to stick around and try your hand at a few other articles, even if all you do is add an extra paragraph here and there with a source to back it up. As you saw for Webcomics, we allow original research - as in this case that can make our project a little more colourful and unique. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that. --David Shankbone 20:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I made up my mind to stick around the minute I saw this thing hit Slashdot. That made me feel so proud. ^_^ I was actually looking for what to do about my userpage... I know David's page is pretty spiffy, but I dunno if there's special userboxes for Wikinews the way Wikipedia does, or exactly what's going on here. -- Jigsaw 02:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear that. There isn't really much in way of userboxes here (Basically the irc template, and the accred reporter template. Otherwise they're just hard coded into the page) There are some old categories such as category:Live in North America and Category:Interested in Health, but no one really uses those anymore. Happy userpage making. Bawolff ☺☻ 20:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jigsaw