text:
Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/terrorist

I agree with this. There is no place for the use of these terms outside of direct quotes in a NPOV format,imo. (Previous unsigned comment by Neutralizer)

Poll suggestion; These words are not to be allowed within wikinews articles outside of direct quotes; just like "nazis" is not allowed.
 * Agree to not allow. Neutralizer 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Brian | (Talk) | New Zealand Portal 19:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, follow the context and you can see who deems who "terrorist". --Brian McNeil / talk 20:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose: it would judge it on a case-by-case basis.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 23:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is already strong resistance to using the words terrioists outside direct quotes and sentences like, so and so calls blah a terrorist. It is a very hard word to define, and I believe we should avoid using it. However an outright ban is too much in my opinion. Also Voting is evil. Actually if this was not a vote, I'd proabbly agree with you but as I have to choose one side even If I'm leaning in the middle towards the other side I can only choose one, so therefor I have to Oppose Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 04:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * previous discussions on this: Talk:17 Civilians killed by U.S. bombing attack Talk:Pakistani_Official_claims_%27foreign_terrorists%27_among_civilians_killed_in_U.S._airstrike. Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 05:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Support not using this word without mentioning who considers who a terrorist. eg. Al-Quaida (considered a terrorist group by the U.S) threatens more attacks against America. OR President Ahmedinejad asks that Israel (deemed by Iran to be a terrorist Zionist regime) be wiped off the map. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 08:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Jason Safoutin 02:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose — F e  llow  Wiki  News   (W)  02:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose — In some cases it makes sense, in some it doesn't. I agree we need to be careful with the category "terrorist" and "terrorism" but I don't think a draconian policy is the answer. --Fastfission 21:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose strongly - it's pure censorship, all words would be allowed by default.  Jacques Divol 14:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that we should use all words? Including "towelhead", "nigger", "cheese-eating-surrender-monkey" etc. etc. .... PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * please, don't fool me. I am speaking of correct, intelligent language not slang. Jacques Divol 15:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The aforementioned words are just as racist and offensive as the word "terrorist". I, for one, do not see the difference between an "intelligent" slur and a "dumb" one. PVJ
 * The difference is that the word "terrorist" is not a slur, it is a word used to describe a group of people who use terrorist(read: underhanded, dirty, non-conventional) tactics to an attempt to instill fear in the hearts and minds of the public, whether there are casulties or not. I oppose the banning of this word, as Al Qaeda, no matter how you slice it, is a Terrorist group as they use terrorist tactics.  They certainly are not "freedom fighters".ThePacMan

(Talk) 15:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's seem you have a long list of word you want to stop usage. Please give us this list in one shot not one a one. I understand your meaning very well. But i don't want, for example, remove my picture onmy page just because it hurts sensibility of many people. Even if i understang why some use blind bombing, and that some could think it's a regular way to do war. i do not agree.
 * it's maybe a bias, but i can't call baby's killer a soldier, sorry. it's terrorism.
 * Jacques Divol 14:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys who rape and murder 14 year old girls or make Muslims form "naked pyramids" can be called soldiers, but the people fighting against these barbarians are terrorists? You talk of babies dying in attacks such as 11/9, but why do you neglect the little Lebanese boy who was incinerated by an Israeli missile even before he could finish his last sandwich? Going by your definition, the American soldiers and the Zionist regime are just as "terrorist" as Al-Qaeda or Jaish-e-Mohammed. However, if I went about calling U.S troops or Israelis "terrorists", would you stand by idly and let me continue? No. And therein lies the essence of systemic bias. As for removing your picture from your Userpage, I would not do that, but if you put (say) cartoons of the Prophet anywhere on Wikinews, yes I would remove those images because they are racist in nature and are offensive to millions of Muslims around the world. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 07:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you to some extent. I'm just opposed to voting yes or no on it (Voting is evil). I personally think we should not use the word terrorist if we can't define it. If you/anyone can give me a definition of the word, I'm fine with its use. otherwise lets not. (Is this good?terrorist terrorism, Definition of terrorism) Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 07:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, but as for defining "terrorist" please keep this (taken from the Wiktionary definition) in mind, even when dealing with sensitive events like 11/9 The use of the label "terrorist" is often controversial or subjective, since one person's terrorist may be another's freedom fighter, and vice versa. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 08:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

 * here's what the pros have to say -
 * Doldrums 08:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Reminds me a bit of wikipedia NPOV introduction. I agree with that. Also it appears the anti-vandal RC bot has an opinion.

"User n:User:PVJ59 Move from n:Talk:Colombian army officials allegedly fake terrorist attacks to show positive results in the fight against terrorism to n:Talk:Colombian army officials allegedly fake "terrorist" attacks to show positive results in the fight against "terrorism" "Terrorist is not NPOV.""

"pgkbot>	User n:User:Doldrums, Possible gibberish? n:Wikinews:Water cooler/policy (1080) Diff: http://en.wikinews.org/w/index.php?title=Wikinews%3AWater_cooler/policy&diff=309910&oldid=309905 "/* Poll: Use of words "terrorist","terrorists" and " terrorism" */ ""

Bawolff ☺☻ 08:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The BBC definition seems fine. The Malegaon bombings are a striking example of how the this word is misused- when Kashmiri "freedom fighters" from the Lashkar bomb trains, they are quickly branded "terrorists", but the same title is rarely applied to Hindu fundamentalist groups (one of the suspects in this case) when they plant explosives near mosques or when they instigate anti-Muslim riots. This is despite the fact that both organisations share common enemies- India and her citizens (Hindu as well as Muslim). I think VandalBot might have a point regarding the Colobia story, I am not familiar with the background of the conflict in that country. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its funny what vandal-bot says. Every single edit by neutralizer is giberish acording to vandal-bot (mostly because he's black listed because of his block record, but its funny none the less) (No offense intended towards neut). I like the BBC idea. The other Colobia story to me terrorism shouldn't be in quotes, because it was a (semi)drill of what the government calls a terrorist attack Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 10:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have created a template to clarify this in articles. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 13:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * i don't know if your template is usefull. We are trying to do our best to be neutral and we understand that we are limited by our culture and more or less wash-brained since our childhood by media. I don't know if it's usefull to overload our article with this kind of message. We already have npov message. it's enought. Jacques Divol 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't exactly have worded the template like that, but if we must have it, it should go on the talk page. Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 19:31, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What's the use of putting it on the talk-page? You can reject the template if you wish, but then we'd have to go back to the lenghthy wording disputes again, if that's what you prefer. Also, what part of the wording do you have a problem with? PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 08:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * i am not sure if a template message or a content guideline is the answer to this issue. either way, i would suggest the following wording. it avoids the awkwardness of the "wikinews view" (wikinews article are supposed to reflect wikinews view - WN:NPOV) and the legal conviction thing - acts that might be defined as terrorism in the legal systems of some countries may not be uncontrovertially terrorism (eg. expression of support for a "terrorist" group or cause).

 * "This article deals with Terrorism. The designation of an individual or a group as a 'Terrorist' is often controvertial and implies a POV. Therefore, the use of the term should be carefully weighed, and the use of attribution or the use of alternative terms such as 'bomber'/'gunman'/'kidnapper', 'attacker', 'insurgent, and 'militant' should be considered."
 * Doldrums 09:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

There used to be a on this website. Now, it no longer exists. Satisfied? hope so, -Edbrown05 09:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The only thing this is about is news. -Edbrown05 10:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My template was made in accordance with the Wiktionary defnition of terrorism. It is important to mention that ones country's terrorist may be another's freedom-fighter. As long as this fact is included in the template, the wording may be altered. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

problems with the template's wording: problems with the template's usage: Doldrums 15:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) all terrorists are not necessarily "freedom fighters". eg. terrorists who subscribe to a authoritarian ideology.
 * 2) something as complex as terrorism needs to be linked to the Wikipedia article rather than a wiktionary definition
 * 3) template presupposes that the terrorists mentioned in the article have not been convicted yet, and can't be used on articles which talk about convicted terrorists.
 * 4) wikinews should not disclaim the views expressed in its articles, as the template does. it should stick to, and stand by, its view - NPOV.
 * 1) i don't see any reason why the template should be used as a kind of "disclaimer" on published articles - similar caveats are arguably needed on articles dealing with a number of topics (eg., all articles dealing with criminals can use the "innocent until guilty" bit, lots of articles, if not all, can use a "this article may suffer from systematic anglo-US bias" disclaimer). we don't use any of them and i don't see a compelling reason to make an exception here.
 * 2) templates are used to call attention to particular and frequently occuring defects in developing articles, and to inform editors of what to do to avoid/overcome the defect. in its present wording, the template does not do the latter, and if its usage on the Arar article is any indicator, does not do the former either - the tag was added but no correctable defect was identified in the article).
 * I agree. Disclaimers should be used sparingly; mainly to protect us from liability. This template makes it appear as if we can't figure out the right words to use and don't stand behind our own articles. Intelligent readers (which I hope we have) don't have to be reminded of the ambiguity of certain words. And I believe they know that presumption of innocence is an integral part of every society that strives to follow the rule of law. --+Deprifry+ 20:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1)I do not recollect asking for anyone's permission to use this template. 2)Even if I did, Meta clearly states that numerical strength (in a poll) should not be allowed to trump neutrality. 3)I will continue to use this template where needed. As regards the article about an innocent man being tortured by Canada, changing the title to Innocent Canadian man released after being tortured for a year would be NPOV. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How do you make a Poll without counting and using numerical ? A poll was asked, and a majory seems clear. Now you reject the Poll stating meta... no more comment. Jacques Divol 12:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Light-touch support of original proposal All language disclaimers, like Template:Terrorism, are stupid.  We ain't writing for children.  And wikinews ain't paper!  'Any' "iffy" terms ought to be links to wikipedia articles whose intros make it clear that the term is "iffy".  Its also clear that one ought to use the word terrorism when appropriate.
 * However, I fully support the general idea that ''terrorism is a non-objective word & ought to be avoided". Just try to say exactly what people actualy did.  For example, if an American checkpoint gets blown up in Iraq, don't use the word "terrorist", use the word "attacker", "bomber", or "shooter".  Here "attacker" etc are much more specific & passes no moral judgement.  Infact, I imagine extremely few situation where wikinews should ever refer to individual people as terrorists, more specific & neutral words almost always exist.
 * Its a bit more complex when you discuss terrorist organisations, the Muslim brotherhood, etc. "Islamist" is objective & maybe sufficent.  I'm not sure its very easy to quantify the level of violence supported by a specific group, but the linked wikipedia article ough to make this clear.  Nyarlathotep 08:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Comment Does the United Nations have a definition? If the UN would call the 9/11 attacks 'terrorism', so should we. If they do not, neither should we. This seems to me like an excellent opportunity to use the UN for guidelines. --Daniel575 19:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Its still a value judgement which provides no additional information, you should say what they did, i.e. bomber, attacker, etc., say if the victims were civilian or millitary, and mention the attackers ideology, i.e. Islamist, Basque seperatist, etc.
 * Take a look at the first line of Two Pakistani militants arrested in south Indian city of Mysore :
 * Two members of the Islamic militant group Al-Badr have been arrested in Mysore after a gun-battle with police early Friday morning.
 * It says they are Islamic millitants, links their specific terrorist group's article, states the city, and says that they fought the police with guns.. and says the day. All that is missing is that they wanted to attack the civilian government, which is clarified by the second sentence :
 * Police said that they were planning a "devastating" terrorist attack in the state by attacking Vidhan Soudha in Bangalore, which houses the state secretariat and legislative assembly.
 * Which you'll notice uses terrorist as a quotation. Clearly nothing would be gained here by trying to wedge the word terrorist into the first sentence.  Had they done it, we be saying something like:
 * Two members of the Islamic militant group Al-Badr have blown up the Vidhan Soudha in Bangalore killing 10 civilians.
 * Even here making the value judgement actually detracts from the information content. Nyarlathotep 21:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

title: Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/terrorist


text:
Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/Israel Recognition POV

I have noticed that Wikinews seems to be relentlessly backing the POV of the countries that recognise the existence of the Jewish state of Israel, whilst completely ignoring the fact that a significant number of Muslim nations do not recognise the existence of such a Zionist state. Unless Wikinews has chosen to officially push the "existence of Israel" POV, I ask that it be clarified in articles that 1) The existence of "Israel" is not officially recognised by most (if not all) of the Arab world. 2) The land on which this Zionist regime exists is considered by many to be Muslim soil. I am sure you will understand that to be be neutral we must 1) Not mention any POV at all OR 2) Mention all POVs so that their sum total becomes NPOV. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) 11:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you serious ?
 * What are you looking for ?
 * Recognise or not Israël is a state.
 * It's is even the 59th member of the UN.
 * Please, we do our best to be neutral, but if we took into account extremists POV the unique subject available for Wikinews is Weather news, don't launch war on wikinews, please.
 * i add, we know all that some countries do not recognise Israel as state. see here : Foreign_relations_of_Israel.
 * Jacques Divol 12:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * After jihad, terrorist, now Israel ...
 * your list is growing :)
 * What about image of people ?
 * i am sorry if i am hurting you, it is not my goal.
 * but you seem very influenced by muslin way (view) of life.
 * Jacques Divol 13:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * but you seem very influenced by muslin way (view) of life.
 * Jacques Divol 13:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) As I have already explained, recognising Israel as a state is in itself a POV. 3) Considering the POV of the entire Arab (maybe even Muslim) world as extremist is extreme in itself. 4) If you know that many nations do not recognise the existence of a Zionist regime on Arab land, why do you ignore that POV while pushing the POV of those who do recognise the existence of such a Jewish state 3) You seemed very concerned as to how Islam has influenced me. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 13:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Franckly? i do not mind. in french : je m'en fiche complétement.
 * It's politics
 * i am a wikinewsier.
 * Jacques Divol 14:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Everything is POV. Is USA a state? or is it just a relbelious regime on British north America land? Honestly Isreal's been there for a while. Its not going away anytime soon (well its possible as its not in the most stablest of regions, but I think its here to stay). Therefor its a state (In my uninformed opinion). Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 22:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) According to some people (mainly Jews) it is a state, according to others (the Muslim world) it is a an oppressive Zionist regime whose existence does not deserve to be recognised. 2) All coubtires, as far as I know, including Cuba and Iran, accept the existance of America, so your arguement does not hold water. 3) The scourge of the Zionist regime will one day, in my humble opinion, be wiped off the earth and after its annhilation, Muslims will once again be free to live without fear of Jewish oppression. 11:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

On the other side of the argument over whether Israel is a state there are plenty of people who say that the occupied territories don't exist, they are part of an indivisable Israel, and not 'occupied' at all. In my opinion the most we can hope to do is be clear to the reader. When you use Israel or Occupied Territories everyone knows what you mean, whether they think one way or the other or they don't care. Using the mostly widely accepted names is as NPOV as we're going to get. TRWBW 13:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Using the mostly widely accepted names is as NPOV as we're going to get. Accordint to you the views of the Muslim world don't count? PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 11:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Diplomatic recognition or not, both Israel and Iran are both 'states' or 'nations'. A bias is not shown in describing either of these as political areas that are goverened - while the U.S. may not recognize Iran's government as the government of the people of Iran, it still distinguishes Iran as a separate entity.
 * PVJ59, please be nice. Israel has been around and the people there for thousands of years and before most humans in some areas of the planet. Israel is a member of the UN, has democratric government and is by all means considered a country regardless of what they do bad or good. It is not a POV it is a fact. From what I can tell, this is a bold attempt to make a lot of people mad and to start a war. Jason Safoutin 00:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Which people exactly? The Israelis?? As any educated person knows, the "Israeli people" only came into existence with the creation of the State of Israel. Prior the mass exodus of Jews from Europe due to Palestine (the official name of the region prior to the creation of the State of Israel) attempted extermination of them at the hands of Europeans (which was not the first time Europeans had attempted to exterminate Jews), the vast majority of the inhabitants of Palestine were not Jews, but Arabs, and many of them, if not most of them, were Christian. And prior to them, the issue becomes so obscure and contentious that academics and politicians have given up attempting to reach a consensus regarding the accurate history of Israel/Palestine. So, which people are we talking about, that you say have been for thousands of years?? I would really like to know, because if you have the answer, then we can all pack our bags and go to the UN and announce to the world the truth about who really belongs to the land of Israel/Palestine. Regards, Thisisthehour 00:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Israel is a member of the UN, has democratric government and is by all means considered a country regardless of what they do bad or good.. In case you were not aware of this, Jason, the land the Zionist regime refers to as "Israel" belongs to Muslims, and (to an infinitely small extent) Christians . It definitely does not belong to the Jews, and thus the Jewsaders have no right to oust innocent Muslims out of "Israel". The fact is that the Muslim world does not honour this Zionist regime by believing its "Israel" propaganda. Hence, in order to be neutral, we will not push pro-Israeli recognition POV. 11:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I consider myself fairly well informed on the basis of the foundation of the State of Israel. Had the United States not recognised it, then the surrounding Arab states would have destroyed it. However, the state was recognised by the U.S., and subsequently by a significant number of nations. Why don't we just refer to the region as Canaan, and then you can argue about who belongs there?
 * I am also aware of "positive discrimination" by the Israelis, and many people do not realise that this is religious discriminaton aimed at changing the demographics of the region.
 * 'On the other hand... I live in Europe. More specifically in Belgium.  The country is nominally Catholic, but the only people around here likely to claim there is religious discrimination are the Scientologists.  People in this country are pretty much disgusted at what Israel gets up to but they have a mostly functional government that can be dealt with.
 * As to the discussion here, please keep it civil. We have fellow contributors, not anti-semites or Zionist apologists. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am being civil. It is just that I prefer to refer to the "Israeli" government as a Zionist regime. The "significant number of nations" mentioned by you does not include the Muslim world, which makes it highly POV to ignore their opinion on the right of such a "state" to impose itself on Arab soil. As for the US preventing "Israel" from being annhilated in its infancy, that is another American blunder. Had the Zionist regime been crushed soon after the Jews invaded Muslim land, the present day genocide of Arabs would have been avoided. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 16:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * please, we are not blind kids. You hurt my intelligence and sensibility with you're irrational hate of Israel. You need to learn about true international politic not just quoting mad people nightmare. it's just troll. stop it Jacques Divol 18:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My (personal, private) hatred of Israel is not irrational, it is based on the fact that the Zionist regime has invaded Arab land and is currently committing acts of genocide against innocent Muslims. I also do not see how you can accuse me of being a "troll" when I have written more articles that you. In any case referring to Muslim leaders as "mad people" is trollish, not to mention racist, in itself. Internationally, the Muslim world does not recognise the right of "Israel" to exist, and to suppress that POV, while pushing the POV of states that do believe that "Israel" is a legitimate country, is POV-pushing. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 07:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * PJV59, I don't know what you're thinking, but what you're writing does not come across as civil. You appear to be asserting that the correct position for people to hold is that Israel should not exist, and that people who hold a contrary position are not to be respected, nor their opinions on any matter that may be obliquely related.  That's not constructive, that's contempt. --Brian McNeil / talk 19:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not being civil? And Jacques is when he makes unnecessary comments about how influenced I am by the "muslim way of life"? I am asserting that 1) My personal, private opinion, which should not appear on Wikinews, is that Israel should be wiped off the map. 2) The Muslim and Arab worlds (i.e a significant number of people) do not recognise the existence of "Israel" and thus for Wikinews to only push the opinion of those who do recognise the existence of "Israel" would be POV. 3) In order to remain neutral, Wikinews must represent all (signifiacnt) sides to an arguement, i.e in this case mention that the existence of "Israel" is disputed, accepted by some and rejected by others. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 07:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of the comments, by various contributors, are bordering on incivility. It was my intention to get people to focus more on the point than on slinging mud at each other.  The point is, in my opinion, misplaced.  Israel exists, even Iran acknowledges that.  Now, if you have an article that covers both Israel and Iran there may be a place for a mention of Iran's position on the right of Israel to exist.  The point I'm trying to make is that you can't make a blanket decision to describe Israel as a state engaged in ethnic cleansing or crimes against humanity.  You have to (a) source those allegations, and (b) justify their inclusion in any particular article.  That puts you right back to arguing the case on the article talk page which I believe is what you were trying to avoid. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's an interesting piece...
 * --Brian McNeil / talk 08:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) I don't see what Iran (by itself) has to do with this discussion. The countries shaded in red (in the adjoining diagram) do not recognise the existence of Israel. The point I wish to make is that we cannot suppress the POV of these nations whilst pushing the POV of countries which do recognise Israel. I hope that this map will show you the significant number of nations which do not recognise the state of Israel, and thus contradict arguements that the POV of these states is a fringe opinion. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:04, 30 September 2006 (UTC) [[Image:Israel relations.png|250px|right|thumb|Nations marked in red do not recognise the existence of Israel]]
 * and another:
 * -- Doldrums 10:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The diplomatic position of the bulk of the "Muslim world" (which, incidentally, is not as clear-cut as PVJ appears to think it is) is relevant and should be mentioned in articles which touch upon, say, Israel's relationship with such countries or, Israel's "legitimacy". i don't accept the idea that every time Wikinews mentions the word "Israel", it is "relentlessly backing" and "pushing" the "POV that Israel exists". For instance, Wikinews will talk of "Taiwanese electronics companies", "towns in Somaliland" and "Chechen rebels" without writing copious footnotes about the definition of Taiwan, Somaliland and Chechnya. Things like states, governments and constitutions often exist de jure rather than de jure. As far as i can see, Israel has managed to wrangle enough evidence to "demonstrate" its existance (If u don't think Israel is a "sovereign state", try entering it without a visa). It's listed as a country without any qualifiers in 'pedia, and it shld be dealt with in the same way here. Doldrums 10:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there is a major communication gap between Doldrums and myself. Certain countries believe that Israel exists, that is their POV (let us call it POV "x"). A significant number of other countries (sometimes referred to as the "Muslim world) have an opposing POV ("y"), that an entity called "Israel" does not exist. By mentioning Israel/referring to that geopgraphical area as Israel, we are pushing POV "x", whilst ignoring POV "y". In order to be nueutral, we must 1) Not mention either POV, OR 2) Mention both POVs so that they "cancel" each other out. Other than that, I would like to remind Doldrums that 1) We are not Wikipedia. 2) Whether or not he thinks Israel has asserted its legitmacy is irrelevant to Wikinews. 3) De facto and de jure do not mean the same thing. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * countries don't "believe" other countries "exist" or not. they grant diplomatic recognition or not. if a wikinews article mentions that 161 (is it?) countries recognise Israel, then it should mention that so-many other countries don't. Articles don't mention the recognition thing everytime the word "Israel" occurs in the text, they only do it if the subject of the article actually touches upon Israel's diplomatic status. that's the way it should be. it follows that the non-recognisers get a say in precisely the same set of articles that the recognisers do.
 * I think there is a major communication gap between Doldrums and myself. Certain countries believe that Israel exists, that is their POV (let us call it POV "x"). A significant number of other countries (sometimes referred to as the "Muslim world) have an opposing POV ("y"), that an entity called "Israel" does not exist. By mentioning Israel/referring to that geopgraphical area as Israel, we are pushing POV "x", whilst ignoring POV "y". In order to be nueutral, we must 1) Not mention either POV, OR 2) Mention both POVs so that they "cancel" each other out. Other than that, I would like to remind Doldrums that 1) We are not Wikipedia. 2) Whether or not he thinks Israel has asserted its legitmacy is irrelevant to Wikinews. 3) De facto and de jure do not mean the same thing. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * countries don't "believe" other countries "exist" or not. they grant diplomatic recognition or not. if a wikinews article mentions that 161 (is it?) countries recognise Israel, then it should mention that so-many other countries don't. Articles don't mention the recognition thing everytime the word "Israel" occurs in the text, they only do it if the subject of the article actually touches upon Israel's diplomatic status. that's the way it should be. it follows that the non-recognisers get a say in precisely the same set of articles that the recognisers do.

 * i am not particularly moved by gratuitous "WN is not "WP" arguments - WN does many things in the same way as WP 'coz many of their basic features and aims are identical. A WP constructed NPOV wording is, in my book, an excellent candidate to be considered for use on WN, and am not inclined to discard it just coz someone says "WP not WN" (whatever).

 * if you've read my above comment to mean, i think "Israel has asserted its legitmacy" and "De facto and de jure are the same", then u've misread it. i can restate or explain, if need be.
 * Doldrums 11:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A certain number of countries (you claim it is 161) believe that a certain area should be refered to as Israel. The others do not. Thus, using the word "Israel" to refer to that geographical area is POV-pushing. In your book, BBC's editorial guidlines or WP:NPOV, may be the answer to everything, but that is your exlcusive POV. There is no need to for Wikinews to abide by sources you claim are NPOV. Also, could you explain what you mean by this- Things like states, governments and constitutions often exist de jure rather than de jure . PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 11:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, by saying that "161 countries" recognise Israel, then it implies that others may not. I don't think it's particularly POV to not point out that a dozen or so do not.  Lankiveil 03:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC).
 *
 * Diplomatic recognition is not the way of determining the "existence" of a state, i.e. its sovereignty" (see Declarative theory of statehood and Constitutive theory of statehood). in particular, universal recognition is not the standard adopted. so the fact that some countries do not recognise Israel does not take away its "existence", any more than the fact that Israel not recognising these countries turn their existence into an opinion, as opposed to a fact.

 * as for the de-this and de-that thing, i mean that there is no recognised authority which confers statehood, legitimacy and legality to countries, governments and constitutions. for many, if not most countries, their existence is de facto rather than de jure.

 * Israel appears in List of countries and List of sovereign states, even though it appears in the Partially unrecognized states (along with China and the Holy See).

 * i don't know about "Everything", but WN:NPOV is supposed to answer questions about what and how Wikinews articles are, and i do think that the Beeb offers a reasonably good "ready-made" source of guidelines for us to consider. if u believe that "there is no need to abide by either", u can probably bring it up in an other discussion, and not forget to tell us why you think so. Doldrums 12:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right....... Your point has been made. Hopefully your involvement in this discussion will end now? Thanks. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 13:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In any case, it is essential to NPOV that we mention that "Israel" is only "partially recognised" and that is what I intend to do. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 13:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is not essential to NPOV that we weaselly word every articles that mentions Israel to suit one contributor. Doldrums has laid out cases where he thinks it is appropriate to mention the refusal to recognise Israel, I agree with him, and I think you'll find that his opinion represents a significant number of the contributors.  If you approach the project with the objective of imposing your point of view at every possible opportunity then you will have conflicts.  Please settle for the compromise of looking to bring out this under-represented POV when it is appropriate.  Doldrums has suggested some points at which it would be relevant and appropriate, don't push the envelope on that and conflict should be kept to a minimum.    That leaves the difficult bit up to you, how to tidily bring the issue into an article, i.e. please choose your words wisely.  For an example, say country Foo has a dispute with Israel, and it is one of the countries marked in red on your map, the article should concentrate on the dispute, but it can introduce the recognition issue, perhaps saying, Foo is one of x states/countries that refuse to recognise the existence of Israel.  Mainly concentrated in the Middle East and predominantly Muslim countries of Africa, this group asserts that the region is illegally occupied by Zionists.  Now, you can't have that on every article, because it would be wholly inappropriate on one about The Pope visiting Israel, but if you had an Israel infobox I suspect you could ensure that at least one article in the DPL reminded people of this POV. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

In all fairness, it's not to suit one contributor, but neutrality in itself. Anyways, PVJ and I were working out on a resolution on IRC. Unfortunately, we couldn't decide on a consensus, and now Doldrums and I are discussing. What I'd like to see are articles known to have (had) problems with Israeli Recognition POV, and what was wrong with them. —     15:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 *  Mainly concentrated in the Middle East and predominantly Muslim countries of Africa, this group asserts that the region is illegally occupied by Zionists. Brian, as you might be aware, Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia are not from Africa/the Middle East. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 16:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are mis-reading my comment. Look at the map you provided.  Mainly in mid-east, mainly in Muslim Africa.  There are exceptions, but they are a minority in their region, my comment was "broad strokes", the lack of precision you seem to be criticising me for is what differentiates readable news and dry encyclopedia.  The point was to give an example of what you could say when you can justify bringing the issue up.  I'm sure you'll put it in your own words, but if you want to say "Zionist" please try to make sure it is a quote, preferably from a substantial bloc of the countries who you assert have an under-represented POV, someone like the Arab League would be reasonable. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * For quotes by leaders of Muslim countries on Israel, see . PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 05:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * PVJ, do not assert what I think or do not think. IMO, every person on this planet is a human being and whether you like it or not, has the right to exist on this planet. You say that your personal opinion should not exist on Wikinews, yet you keep aserting it and attempting to PUSH your beliefs on other users. That is uncalled for and wrong and is POV-pushing. I do NOT care whether or not you want "israel to be wiped off the map" or whether or not you hate America. My point is, you DID make your POV on here and continue to do so. This is detrimental to the project. As far as I am concerned, every country, territory state, whatever is a nation. The rest is what their governments do. Jason Safoutin 22:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Jason, please try to understand what I am saying. The land on which modern-day Israel exists belongs to Arabs, and hence the Jews had no right to take that land. 24 (Muslim) nations agree with that POV and hence do not recognise "Israel". Thus, in order to be neutral, we cannot push the POV of countries who DO recognise Israel whilst ignoring the POV of other nations. The Jews do have a right to their own nation, but logically, that state should exist in/around Germany since it was (after all) the Nazis who oppressed the, not the Palestinians. As for your definition of what qualifies as a state, do also you recognise the sovereignity of the Montana Freemen? Do you reckon we should mention them as a seperate country on Wikinews? Please try to understand the point I am making, instead of making strawman arguments about my pushing anti-Semitics/anti-American POV. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 03:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Israel is a nation, a democracy. And your POV on whether or not they should exist is not welcome here. They DO exist and will continue to do so. They have their land and they have their country and government. Since they do exist and do have a country, you are expressing a POV. Period. I do not care what you think about "Jews" as you put them as it is a POV. The FACTis: They are a country. If you do not like it, then move to another planet. We are humans. Deal with it. Please do not continue to POV push your opinion on Israel. I am getting greatly offended and I am not even a "Jew". Jason Safoutin 22:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Some call it a democracy, that's their POV. Some refer to it as a Zionist regime, a tumour on the Middle East, a disgraceful blot etc. etc. That is their POV. We need to balance both in order to be neutral. I am sorry if I have offended you, but I will not allow you to push the POV of countries that recognise "Israel" whilst ignoring nations that do not recognise it. For further information, please look at the map. [[Image:Israel relations.png|right|250px|thumb|Nations that do not recognise Israel]]PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 02:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What if I called India and you and all the people there Arab terrorists? And that all Indians are terrorists? What if I said I did not recognize your country as a nation. We are all humans...and as far as I am concerned this Wiki is full of humans from every end of the world. If you don't like them then leave. But I will not allow you to discrace a culture because of your personal opinions and beliefs. If I can edit Wikinews and write Wikinews without caring who is good or bad then I don't see why you can't. The arguement is that Israel IS a nation/democracy and IS a member of the United Nations. You may not recognize Israel as a nation, but that is initself a POV. Jason Safoutin 21:09, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Why a point is raised is nothing compared to the content of the point itself. The point here seems to be that it is not neutral to imply that the status of Israel as a nation is decided absolutely either way. Shouldn't the effort here be to find how best to indicate this character instead of repeating comments sidetracking into mistaken terms of personal preferences when the point concerns global regions?
 * Where is the chart of countries that do recognize Israel? Jason Safoutin 23:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And what countries recognize al-Qaeda as a terrorist group/organization? Jason Safoutin 23:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

There is one image here with indicators on the status of diplomatic relations with Israel. That would seem to have the necessary data provided it is supplemented with knowledge of geography. The work to process that information into more readily useful forms is one task. Your mention of al-Qaeda is interesting as well; that is a second task to collect and process data for. Precise presentation of disagreements between nations on what disputed matters and parties are is absolutely neutral whereas preference of the dominant perception on either the point on Israel or of your mentioned al-Qaeda and every similar item is questionable at best and otherwise simply the easy rather than neutral option. After data is processed for these items the way to indicate the data and to use it in articles needs to be discussed.
 * Jason, please stop making baseless arguements about "disgracing cultures", or ranting about "us all being humans". This is about mentioning that the existance of Israel is not universally accepted. You are oppossed to that idea, and that is that. Please do not waste time and effort trying to divert this into some sort of "human brotherhood" issue. PVJ(Talk)(Articles I have written) [[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 16:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

PS-Do not be offended, your point has been made and taken note of, but persistently going off topic will only be seen as a sign of weakness on your part.
 * Well, personally, I support recognizing Israel for Wikinews coverage. Thunderhead (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is not what this is about — this is about how Wikinews has a tendency to recognize Israel even though a minority of countries do not. Wikinews's stance is not "Israel exists", or "Israel does not exist", but "Israel is considered a country by some and not a country by some". —     21:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

And an approach/policy has been suggested for that. Many contributors have acknowledged that the Muslim perspective that Israel is a rogue/illegal state is under represented. They have said that whenever it can justifiably be done Western readers should be reminded that certain countries don't recognise Israel. That is, it has been said that this should be judged case by case, not a blanket decision. --Brian McNeil / talk 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sooo... only 18/19 nations don't recgonise Israel, big friggin deal. Only 20 nations in the world recongise Taiwan, do they get a disclaimer just becasue China says Taiwan doesn't exsist. Listen Israel exsists. They don't think it exists, and yet at the same time claim it exists by promising to "purge the land of Zionist scum."

The USA is simply a wayward colony of mother Britain, and I feel that it's POV-pushing to acknowledge the existance of this rogue state as being independent! Lankiveil 03:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC).

 * I've read this whole discussion, and it's absolutely ridiculous. Are we also to write every time the Vatican City is mentioned that it's not recognised by some nations?  Are we to write on every article about George W. Bush that some people think that he didn't win the 2000 election?  There are some fringe groups that will not recognise any particular thing, and certain Islamic countries (and not even all of them), definitely count as a "fringe" in this case.  Lankiveil 03:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me bring this in; suppose suddenly 30 countries declare that the United States is not a country but rather a large Monkey with a population of killer-ants on it's back. Do we have to mention that whenever we talk about the US? Of course not. Those Muslim countries could also deny the existence of the moon, gravity, Elvis, and anything else that they want, but that doesn't change the fact that any of them exist, and you can't honestly say that your pushing one point of view by talking about the moon without mentioning that several groups/nations beleive that it doesn't exist. That fact is that Israel is a member of the United Nations, has an independent goverment, an army that has single-handedly beaten four arab armies that had Soviet backing, posses it's own economy and posses every single feature we apply to a country. There is no point of view, Israel exists. --Shaoken 01:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The common meaning for recognition is not the political meaning. There are nations that do not recognize the Israeli state government as a legitimate government over the territory it claims. That is the sole point, nothing else is relevant and any refocusing and misinterpretation is only that no matter how often it is repeated.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/ArbCom and systemic bias

The following is an exceprt from Wikipedia's article on systemic bias, which, I believe, it applies to Wikinews as well- The average English language Wikinews editor(1) is male, (2) is technically-inclined, (3) is formally educated, (4) speaks English to an extent, (5) is White, (6) is aged 15-49, (7) is from a predominantly Christian country, (8) is from an industrialized nation As such it is important that the Arbitration Committee include members from various backgrounds so as to counter this sort of bias. As of this time, three of the five Arbitrators are (as per their userpages) from the U.S, and the three strongest contenders for the posts about to be vacated are also Americans. As it stands, the Committee will, after this election, be entirely dominated by people from the U.S whilst Africa, Asia and the Middle-East will be totally unrepresentated. As such, it will then be an outright lie to claim that such a body can be the final, most neutral, binding step in dispute resolution. To counter systemic bias, I ask that atleast two seats on the Committee be reserved only for non-American/European/Occidental (White) candidates OR defendants (who are unconvinced that they will be granted a just decision by the Arbitration Committee) be granted the right to refuse to agree to Arbitration. PVJ(Talk) 13:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose : Arbitration Committee is just here to judge problems between people. I dislike any kind of discrimination even positive. Any people can present him/herself to the Commitee when a seat is available it's not a problem of where you live. Remember, i am french, my english is uggly and i am administrator here!, very open minded people on Wikinews, no ? sans problème. Remember everyone is equal on wikinews even if some people have special power given to them by a vote. Jacques Divol 14:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This is not about who can contest a seat. It is about ensuring that Americans do not dominate the Committee. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 16:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

PS-i am french, my english is uggly . I don't think you, I, nor any other person from a non English speaking country should be self-conscious about not knowing that language, so long as we are fluent in ours.
 * Oppose as Divol says we cannot discriminate based on location sex, origin, etc. Everyone is equal here. Seats oin the committee are voted upon by the community and users are nominated by the community. To "reserve seats" in itself is biased...thats like saying save a seat for two users because they are african american, white or whatever. Its just not fiar, or right. Jason Safoutin 18:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - When voting, people should be voting for those with a record of adhering to neutral point of view. To require that we must fill a certain geographical quota means we may force really bad people to be on the ArbCom just because the quota requires it. —     18:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm tempted to be curt and say this is bullshit, but the idea that we should operate a minorities program on the projects highest authoritity (ArbCom) is *that* ridiculous. If we get applicants from the aforementioned parts of the world, and they've fitted in to the community and demonstrated a knowledge and understanding of the policies, then I will vote for them.  Otherwise take your "positive discrimination" and place it in a dark orifice where there is no illumination from natural light. --Brian McNeil / talk 20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have proposed another solution-let users (who are unconvinced that the Committee will suggest a fair solution) opt to have the community (in general) suggest a remedy, which would be just as binding and "official" as the ArbCom decision. Sort of like the parole agreement Neutralizer agreed to. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 10:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a slightly different case, the blocking administrator offered the option and the case was dealt with in an ad-hoc manner. Arbitration is supposed to be the final step in the dispute process, sort-of one of those things you agree to when you use the wiki.  I'd be leery of offering an appeal to the community as an alternative as I believe that would just prolong any dispute to the detriment of the wiki. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is it stated that by using this Wiki I subject myself to the jurisdiction of the ArbCom? PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

One thing I'm concerned with, though... what does having a diverse arbitration team have to do with ending mudslinging matches between people? Either way, arbiters are required to maintain impartiality. Though it is a good idea, it would be better for an editorial team than an arbitration team. —     07:51, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could start a Wikinews equivalent of WikiProject Countering systemic bias. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 09:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My problem with that is we have time constraints that Wikipedia does not. We used to have "Country of the week" to encourage people to cover underrepresented areas.  I believe we already do a better job at covering non-mainstream items than the likes of CNN, and setting up WN:CSB may just be an invitation for POV warriors to demand their POV included in articles. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * WN:CSB need not be an official policy, it could be a voluntary body such as WP:AMA whose members would devote some of their time to this project. The problem is that though our coverage may be as good that of CNN, we are unable to overcome systemic bias and (maybe unintenionally) our stories are (sometimes) biased in their POV. Again, as I have said before, WN:CSB would be a project, not a policy. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 14:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My point is that, as a project it would attract the disaffected seeking to present extreme or minority opinions rather than constructively contribute. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not apriori opposed to setting up a project - there are some "unquestionably" good things the project can do, such as cover stories from outside Planet US-NZ-oz. note that, project or no project, many contributors already do such a thing already (Brianmc covers Thailand, Ad does Africa stories, to name two). The project working to counter the Anglo-US POV may prove to be controversial (i said controversial, not wrong). it realy depends on how the project goes about doing it. It can do relatively uncontroversial things such as identifying news sources outside the CNN/NYT/Wire Service bubble, working from local news sources would be a great way to attempt to overcome western bias. But like Brian suggests, the project may also turn into a gathering point for pov-warrioring (it pretty much, by definition, is just that), unless the project is able to come up with justifiable guidelines for how it operates.
 * . i do think that what wikinews needs is more specific discussions on article talk pages over particulars of the article's alleged or undisputed bias, than large-footprint rule changes and stuff. discussions that do happen have sometimes (often?) been "is-too/is-not" matches than sustained attempts at justifying the "is too" or "is not". Doldrums 05:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

 * oppose (not that this is actually a vote) reverse discrimanation annoys me. People are free to, and encouraged to seek alternate dispute resolution then arbcom. If they can't solve it themselves, arbcom steps in. If you want to run for arbcom you're free to, (And I noticed you had your name in there for a bit, but it dissapeared before I managed to read your statement) If everyone thinks your the best person for the job, then there vote for you. If they don't, they won't. Also if you want CSB your free to start it.Bawolff ☺☻[[image:smile.png]] 06:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I withdrew my nomination because I see no point in being part of a Committee that is (in my opinion) a biased one. When/if WN:CSB is started I will be sure to frame the policy in such a way that POV-pushers do not exploit it to disrupt the project. Also, WN:CSB will not be slective in its membership, all minority editors, from the Taliban-like ultra-conservatives, to the rednecks who (in Brian's words) want to "string up them thar t*welh*ads", will be given due representation on WN:CSB to ensure that their POVs (however extreme they may appear) are not entirely suppressed by the POVs of other editors. PVJ(Talk)[[Image:Flag_of_India.svg|25px]] 12:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have not seen this comment before, where exactly have I, or any other of the many contributors named Brian suggested we string anybody up? --Brian McNeil / talk 17:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Support; the pro-USA bias within americans is undeniable and bred into the bone starting with the pledge of allegiance to the flag daily beginning in grade 1..I still remember it "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands; one nation,under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all " (the last 6 words are the blatant lie..just ask all the poor and wrongfully convicted rotting in american jails and ghettos). The point is, with such brainwashed "allegiance" to the US having been programmed into our harddrives from childhood; americans are filled with pro-american/western/capitalism pov whether we realize it or not and it inhibits/prevents true npov mentality. In fact, the argument could be made that any american raised in a typical american home and school setting can not mentally arrive at a npov mentality anymore than a dog can fly. I have met some Europeans,however, whom I believe are truly npov in their mentality.. those people are the ones who enjoy true liberty and freedom...the liberty and freedom of non-conditioned/non-fettered creative and analytical thought. Therefore, to allow american dominance of the administrative level is to make a mockery of the npov objective of this wiki and is analogous to putting a fox in charge of a hen house. I would even go further and say that in light of the dismal non-existant progress of this wiki during the past year while under the reigns of american administration (European bureaus and admins used to be more involved) that we have nothing to lose by having a 6 month trial period during which only non-americans are active admins. I dare say our audience would increase as I am sure that the americanization of the wiki must be quite obvious and uninviting to many potential contributors. Obviously my comments are meant to apply to the makeup of the arbitration committee as well as the overall administrative level.Neutralizer 00:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me just say this: arbitrators are elected by pretty much everyone at Wikinews: that includes the Americans, Canadians, Indians, Australians, Martians, Atlantic Oceanians, Zorklops, and even people from Switzerland. While Americans may be indoctrined since youth to pledge alleigence (though I consider myself free of the strangehold, but I'm not one to judge myself), a lot of Americans are still open-minded. I'd say more about indoctrination in other countries, but that could get me in trouble, and is also irrelevant to the subject matter. Anyways, the ones that aren't open-minded eventually upset everyone and are forced to go up for reconfirmation two weeks after the close of their ArbCom case. Additionally, no single individual can be neutral: that's impossible. A neutral point of view comes about through collaboration with people of all sorts of viewpoints. That said, if there's an American, or anyone, up for ArbCom who does not have that open-mindedness to allow neutrality, it should be noted. That way, that person would get downvoted quicker than a poorly-done, unsourced YTMND. —     00:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit conflict. pasted below is what I say before MR comment]

"In fact, the argument could be made that any american raised in a typical american home and school setting can not mentally arrive at a npov mentality anymore than a dog can fly. I have met some Europeans,however, whom I believe are truly npov in their mentality"

sterotypicaly Categorizing every single person based on which country they grew up in to if they are capable of nutrally addressing an issue. Thats not biased even a little bit </sarcasm>. Also please define American? Does that mean Nort American, does that somehow include Australians, New Zealand etc if not then why are there so few Americans if its entirly ruled by America? My list of people who are either from the USA or are from unknown orgin and are active (as defined in WN:A) include: User:Chiacomo, User:Cspurrier, User:Dan100, user:Deprifry, User:DragonFire1024, User:IlyaHaykinson, User:Messedrocker, User:Mindspillage, User:Pingswept, User:RossKoepke, User:Ryan524, User:Uncle G. that is 12 out of 27. and many of these people are barely active. This is not a 100% US admin control. Bawolff ☺☻ 01:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * America and americans are terms which have been stolen and misapplied for hundreds of years now by USAGOV to use exclusively to define USA citizens. As with the other things USAGOV has stolen (like Hawaii) it is far too late to do anything about it. The admin level people (including Arbcom) who are US citizens plot their strategies on IRC and they now control this site by their 24 hour per day monitoring and over-active, continual oversight of the project. They are Amgine,CSpurrier, and Chiacomo. Non-americans like Dan100,Eloquence,the Bellman and Ilya used to have much more involvement but the natural tendency is for a high turnover in activism on a wiki ( I think)..the danger is when a few admins squat into a high level of active control of edits for a long period of time as these 3 have been doing. I believe the increase in administrative control which these 3 have over the past year is directly responsible for the stagnation of the project's audience numbers as readers/contributors globally are fed up and bored with american influence. DF is also american and may well develop into a MrM type participant but it is ACC who pull the levers of this machine on this date in time. I now see Amgine has disappeared but he did this last year for a month or so as well. Neutralizer 10:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting point of view

 * "Ethnomathematicians" are now sprouting up to contest the claim that Western math is a universal and abstract discipline that has little to do with culture and ethnicity. Rather, they say, Western math is an expression of white male culture imposed on nonwhites.

The idea that math is "biased" is as foolish as the notion that being American necessarily makes a WikiNews contributor biased. The only thing needed for neutrality in news is the ability to recognize when a fact is in dispute.

We all know that Israel lacks recognition by dozens of countries. We all also know that the UN has given Israel a seat in the General Assembly. I fail to see how either of these facts obligates Wikinews to take a position on whether Israel really "exists". A neutral position would acknowledge that there is a "government" calling itself Israel, claiming sovereignty over certain territory and people and running a military, judiciary, periodic elections, a parliament and a judiciary. It might not "really" be any more of a government than Taiwan (ROC) is, but it looks and quacks like a duck. No one here is trying to sweep the Arab non-recognition of Israel under the rug. But it's not necessary to remind readers of the views of the Flat Earth Society everytime space travel and satellites are mentioned, either. --Ed Poor 18:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


text:
Sarasota doctor heading to prison

October 5, 2006

Former Sarasota dermatologist Michael Rosin is heading to prison to serve a 22-year prison sentence for defrauding Medicare by performing unnecessary surgeries on elderly Sarasota, Florida patients.

On Rosin's 56th birthday, in front of his family, Judge William Castagna sentinced him to 22 years in federal prison. The judge also ordered Rosin to pay $3.7 Million to the government, $3.6 Million to the medicare trust fund and $48,866 to patients.

More than 865 elderly Sarasota area residents had multiple surgeries performed by Rosin when biopsies showed of no signs of cancer, or could not be read. Rosin was convicted of diagnosing cancer on almost everyone who entered his office. Biopsy slides were found to have bubble gum or foam on it instead of skin samples.

Former patients of Rosin testified at the trial that his surgeries left them disfigured. The $46,866 awarded to the patients will help to repay them for the costs associated with the unnecessary surgeries.

Throughout the trial Rosin maintained that he was innocent. He blamed his office staff for the unreadible slides and the slides with the gum and foam on them. Rosin said his biggest mistake was giving his office staff too much access to the lab.

Rosin's attorney said that the doctor will appeal his convection. Rosin tried many different defenses including that he was not competent to assist in his own defense.

title: Sarasota doctor heading to prison


text:
User talk:68.82.42.210

Hi I deleted your article (pandas) as it didn't contain enough infortmation. Please go through Workspace for more information on how to create an article for wikinews. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. Bawolff ☺☻ 02:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

68.82.42.210, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
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 * When using talk pages, please sign your name at the end of your messages by typing four tildes (~~). This will automatically produce your username (or IP address) and the date.

If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!

title: User talk:68.82.42.210


text:
User talk:Icelandic Hurricane

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Doldrums 03:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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dateline template
hi, just wanted to let u know that, as the Style guide says, Template:Dateline is meant to be used only for articles which include Original reporting. for articles compiled from other news sources, Template:date shld be used. Doldrums 15:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

admin
Your question on the main page was answered. to recap: theres about 42 admins (I belive. this doesn't include bots, Brion or Jimbo, alot of them are inactive.). General critaria is to be here for at least a month, and be trusted enough to get people to vote for you. See WN:A for more info. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Your First Award

 * Usually it isn't, but you've made some great contributions. Now you may want to copy/paste that awawrd to your talk page. If you need anything everyone is here to help! Thunderhead (talk) 02:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi
Hey, Icelandic Hurricane. I'm editing Wikinews instead of Wikipedia now. Sugarpine 01:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I do consider the article breaking news, as it's serious to Cuba and the USA. Sugarpine 01:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Fidel Castro image
Doesn't seem appropriate Fair use to me: discuss at WN:DR please.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 20:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Icelandic Hurricane


text:
Security Council set to adopt non-binding text on N. Korea

October 6, 2006

The UN Security Council will "mostly likely" adopt a non-binding statement later today on North Korea's announcement of planned nuclear bomb tests; the statement does not explicitly mention the threat of sanctions. This was announced by the Security Council president late yesterday.

Japan's UN envoy Kenzo Oshima, who chairs the 15-member body this month, said council experts made "good progress" in efforts to fine tune a Japanese draft, but said they had yet to finalize it.

"Most likely we will have something adopted (Friday)" once council members consult their respective capitals for "final clearance," he added.

Earlier on Thursday, Japan and the United States pushed for a threat to resort to mandatory sanctions under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. This would includes arms, trade, and economic embargoes. China and Russia (two veto members of the Council) however, voted against the sanctions.

It is hoped that the latest text will urge Pyongyang to abandon its nuclear tests and return back to six-party talks "without precondition". North Korea had earlier boycotted the talks in response to a sanction placed by the US on one of its banks, believed to linked to the regime of.

North Korea claims it has nuclear weapons, although this has not yet been independently verified.


text:
Talk:Security Council set to adopt non-binding text on N. Korea

I personally find this a little to close to the source for comfort. Bawolff ☺☻ 03:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at the article (its dead news now anyway), but a very good additional source would have been the un site directly ! They have this press statement on that matter, and also some videos here ( though what to watch them with don't ask me : for example. Regards Sean Heron 15:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. in govermental business, its always having a quick look at the official homepage I think.


text:
User talk:Sachin139~enwikinews

Welcome
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Sachin139. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Sachin139~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sachin139~enwikinews


text:
User talk:GrimStranger~enwikinews

Welcome
GrimStranger, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called GrimStranger. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name GrimStranger~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:31, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:GrimStranger~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Storm5guy

Welcome
Storm5guy, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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Former President Gerald Ford hospitalized
Not sure what your unfinished sentance is meant to say guess hospital, please fix it properly. --Adam1213 19:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I had just started typing and posted it to make sure everything worked. Had the develop tag so it should not have shown up on the main page. Storm5guy 20:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Storm5guy


text:
User talk:Thalij

Welcome
Thalij, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:Thalij


text:
User talk:Joshasurrey

Welcome
Joshasurrey, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:Joshasurrey


text:
User talk:Tyler Birgensmith

Welcome
Tyler Birgensmith, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:Tyler Birgensmith


text:
User talk:WebAsh~enwikinews

Welcome
WebAsh, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
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 * And of course, stories need writing!

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called WebAsh. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name WebAsh~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:WebAsh~enwikinews


text:
User talk:Metavalent

Welcome
Metavalent, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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title: User talk:Metavalent


text:
User talk:Celsotvianna

Welcome
Celsotvianna, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:Celsotvianna


text:
User talk:Desiphral

Welcome
Desiphral, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 04:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:Desiphral


text:
User talk:210.212.194.12

Welcome!

210.212.194.12, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews:
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Here are some other hints and tips:

 * I would recommend that you get a username. You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikinews, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires no personal information, and there are many benefits of having a username.  (If you edit without a username, your IP address is used to identify you instead.)

 * When using talk pages, please sign your name at the end of your messages by typing four tildes (~~). This will automatically produce your username (or IP address) and the date.

If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!Doldrums 04:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:210.212.194.12


text: Template:Sectstub

title: Template:Sectstub


text:
User talk:Robin Patterson

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Doldrums 06:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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NZ Template
Hi, Do you think showing six articles on the New Zealand template is a good idea? I am the primary source of news for NZ, one a day exclu. weekends so that is only five articles for a week. --Nzgabriel | Talk 08:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I may rollback your edit after careful consideration. --Nzgabriel | Talk 09:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Robin Patterson


text:
Talk:Avast ye scurvy file sharers!: Interview with Swedish Pirate Party leader Rickard Falkvinge

There were problems with the " " to include the web address in other wikis and templates. So, don´t use them for the Wikinews titles.


text:
Talk:Child pornography case against John Mark Karr dropped

this Karr pervert should be castrated. Specialops 09:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Iangranger

Welcome
Iangranger, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 09:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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 * Discussions need your input
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 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:Iangranger


text:
User talk:Mee~enwikinews

Welcome
Mee, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!--Umapathy 09:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Mee. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Mee~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mee~enwikinews