text:
User talk:JWSchmidt

DOI template
The DOI template is interesting. It does not appear to conform to any style guide citation format I can find. Is there any way to cite it in an APA-style? - Amgine / talk 18:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I do not know. This page may only have been last updated in 2001. The entire DOI system may be newer than that. --JWSchmidt 18:32, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * APA article about use of DOI --JWSchmidt 18:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Have just checked with a couple fellow researchers, and my copy of APA 5th ed, and DOI is still not included in a standard APA citation. But we have found a couple situations where DOI was appended to APA citations.

 * I think we should look DOIs in the style guide, as per your use in this cannabinoid article. - Amgine / talk 18:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

prepared story: Plame affair
and Novak skips right along because he folded right away... Glad you got out in front of this. Best regards. -Edbrown05
 * Novak's disasterous "bullshit" comment on an interview I won't research now put him out of media play, but perhaps he's a smoking gun. -Edbrown05
 * mediamatters.org covered that Novak interview....

 * "Is any of this a crime? Beats me. At this point, I'm as curious as anyone else to see what Patrick Fitzgerald has." - Matthew Cooper, 25 July 2005. Until Fitzgerald spills his beans, we are all left guessing. Was Libby actively trying to "out" Plame by leaking her identity to trusted reporters such as Miller and Novak? Did Rove know what Libby was doing? Why would anyone in the Whitehouse care enough about "yellow cake" to "out" Plame? The only reason I can think of is that someone had knowledge about the production and release of the original forged Iraq "yellow cake" documents. This all reminds me of Watergate, but rather than having congress helping to get to the truth, we had members of congress helping to smear Plame and Wilson. If Fitzgerald can find a "John Dean" (Andy Card, Powell, Tenet?), Fitzgerald may get to file charges against members of two branches of the federal government. The question is, after learning the lessons of Watergate, was anyone stupid enough to leave a paper (or audio) trail? --JWSchmidt 13:26, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I notice you started a 'Category' on the Valerie Plame scandal. Most of the previous Wikinews stories covering this issue were put into on infobox titled "Bush administration handling of pre-war intelligence". I reviewed the headlines and am listing for you those that apply (I don't believe I missed anything... ) My trouble is, since the stories are older and now protected, I cannot edit the story to include the 'Category:Valerie Plame scandal'. So I leave that to you since somehow you accomplished it with another story. -Edbrown05 15:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) New York Times reporter sent to jail in leak case
 * 2) Cooper claims he learned of Plame through Rove
 * 3) Capitol Hill Democrats hold informal hearing on Plame leak, July 23
 * 4) Wilson calls for Rove removal|Wilson calls for Rove removal|Wilson calls for Rove removal, July 15
 * 5) A timeline: Novak, Rove, Cooper, July 15
 * 6) US Senate debates Rove and intelligence access, July 15
 * 7) Rep. Waxman: Karl Rove violated non-disclosure agreement, July 17

 * I found Category:Valerie Plame scandal as an existing category of Karl Rove named as a source of Plame leak. --JWSchmidt 18:57, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh my, I understand now. I will direct an administrator to this page. Apparently, the older protected stories will need to be unprotected, editted, then protected for the change to be made. -Edbrown05 23:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * FYI- MrMiscellaneous included the above stories in the 'Category:' -Edbrown05

 * Category:Valerie Plame scandal is now useful! Thanks. --JWSchmidt 19:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Cybersquatting
Your userpage is getting quite extensive. I was thinking you might be interested in having a somewhat more flexible space to host it. I have a mediawiki site which is actually designed to host user's squats (in the Personal: namespace), and would like to invite you to host this research there. Pleaonasm - Amgine / talk 00:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I've never previously had a chance to research this topic. It seems to me that Wikinews should have an organized system for researching news stories and sharing the results of that research. Maybe there is such a system here, but I have not found it? --JWSchmidt 01:36, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * No. There tends to be a system very similar to that I've observed in professional journalism: the article archives are useful for finding sources and linked ideas, but each reporter has their own approach to researching articles.
 * Unfortunately, one of the reasons your approach to researching the news topics is not able to be scaled to the full site is that it requires specicific assumptions, and the inclusion/exclusion of sources is based on biases of the researcher. For example, I might prefer to include many BBC, NYTimes, Post, and LATimes sources, while another reporter would consider most of those sources unacceptably biased. I would certainly use Lancet medical articles (blind review juried process) but do not accept JAMA articles (not blinded review process). And so on.
 * Attempting to do this on a larger scale usually devolves to infighting. - Amgine / talk 01:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Wikinews is not paper. People who are interested in an open study of information should welcome a chance to share their research within a wiki environment. "Infighting" happens when there is a party line that is being defended against open discussion. Professional journalism does not emphasize the sharing of research because paid reporters must hide their sources and otherwise manipulate the value of the articles that they produce from their research. These constraints do not apply to Wikinews. The solution to bias is open discussion. --JWSchmidt 02:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * If this were true, all articles on Wikipedia would progressively develop away from all bias. This is not, in fact, the case. It is possible for a small number of people to consistently force a POV on a range of articles. For example, examine all articles related to Palestine on Wikipedia.
 * Still, the benefit of Wikinews is the "sunshine" approach of having all sources for factual statements presented with the article. Readers may choose to examine those sources and determine for themselves whether the sources appear reliable, and whether the article reasonably incorporates the information they present. - Amgine / talk 02:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This formula seems inadequate: "Readers may choose to examine those sources and determine for themselves whether the sources appear reliable." The are well-funded efforts to produce "news" that will "appear reliable". I have higher standards than that. I am a scientist. The rule-of-thumb that I learned within the scientific community is that if someone willfully falsifies information, then they can no longer be trusted. Further, you have to go back and test everything they have ever said in the past in order to discover what else has been distorted. When a pattern of past deception is found, you are a fool to ever trust that source again. A "sunshine approach of having all sources for factual statements presented" cannot end with reporting what someone said. You also have to take into account the past history of the source and objective evidence that supports or contradicts what a source says. Objectivity arise through a social process of open information exchange. Wiki technology is well suited to function as a tool for such open information exchange. To stand in the way of finding new ways to make use of wikis for open information exchange is to subvert open information exchange, which is clearly the goal of those who benefit from keeping the truth hidden. --JWSchmidt 13:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

senior official
A senior official in the White House in the various articles I have read is a consistent term referring to the chief advisor to the President or Vice President ... so the major force behind the two elected CEO's in the country. In terms of whether it makes a difference as to whether Libby resigned first and then was indicted, or was indicted and then resigned, yes I think the difference is significant. Quoting Tom Davis, Republican from Virginia - “[I’m] very disappointed in Libby, and the White House, and the vice president and the president. They should have taken care of this a long time ago. They should have done their own investigation. They’re going to get very little sympathy on Capitol Hill, at least from me…They brought this on themselves.”

In sum, that the President has taken the tact that only with formal charges would an official be asked to leave ... a position contrary to Davis' opinion.

Regardless of the definitions and timing, we know the investigation into Rove's role is not over. Further, if the Libby case actually goes to trial, the role of the Vice President in this matter would be expected to be scrutinized. So the fact the Libby was the chief advisor would appear to present substantial lingering problems for the White House for a long time.

I am OK leaving the story where it rests until we know more from Fitzgerald on whether additional indictments are possible and more from Libby's Counsel in terms of the expected defense (right now reports say a confused memory).

--Psusen 15:10, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Help on new article ?
Regarding the new article:

US state of Kansas in battle over "Intelligent Design" in education

The identical action has now been taken by MrMiscellanious, that is, he marked it as NPOV and sent it back to development. It still contains both POVs, so I don't know what he is complaining about. Could you please take a look and offer your opinion ? StuRat 15:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Editing others' signed comments
Hi there! I've noticed on Water cooler/policy that you modified signed comments from both Wolfrider and myself. As this is against policy and regulation, I'm notifying you of the issue. Please refrain from doing this in all cases (except for cases of vandalism, spam, etc.), as our comments are our own. Thanks! --MrMiscellanious (talk) (contribs) 22:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

 * My edit was an apparently too subtle request for information. In the future I will try to find a way not to upset you. --JWSchmidt 01:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

IRC-channel 'leak'
I am referring to the box within Water_cooler, where two administrators discuss how to cooridnate their blocks in order to circumvent breaking WikiNews rules in order to prevent another administrator to unblock a user. Note that some modifications were made to the 'rules' during the buildup of this incident by another administrator. It seems difficult to me not to believe that this was coordinated too. Apart from this blatant attempt to violate the spirit of the rules without violating the rules, I have noticed similar behaviour by the same group of administrators to coordinate NPOV or DEVELOP tagging of articles so that no particular administrator had to do this three times in a row against the will of all other contributers. Hope that explains my comment. I will add the link to the comment. --vonbergm 02:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the info. I am sickened but not surprised. When the corruption runs deep, two words come to mind: regime change. An article in the Wikimedia Quarto might be useful. --JWSchmidt 03:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It may surprise you to know this, but I do *not* engage in the type of coordination suggested above. But you are free to visit the IRC channel yourselves and see this first hand. - Amgine 03:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Dover, PA Intelligent Design story
Good job, I see it's a featured story ! StuRat 00:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for letting me know. And thanks for your help with that story. --JWSchmidt 01:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Excellent analysis
I thought your comments on the Watercooler were an excellent analysis of the basic problems facing Wikinews, and the dynamics that underlie those problems. I'd not quite thought of it in terms of every editor/admin being somewhere on an axis of pro/anti status-quo "bias" but it makes absolute sense when I think about it. It has great "explanatory power" as a theory because it neatly explains most of the facts I've observed and been concerned about over the last few months.

The answer given by Eloquence was also very interesting, I thought. I think his response to what you've written perhaps highlights a further complexity - ie. that what many of us had taken to be "the rules" on the use of NPOV tags etc. - ie. (or at least this was my impression) that anyone can slap on an NPOV, and thereby send an article away into wiki-purgatory, without really having to give specific actionable reasons for that tag, were not really the real rules at all. My interpretation of what Eloquence has said is that we're perfectly entitled to remove the NPOV tag if there aren't specific "actionable" reasons for it being there.

On the question of admin abuse, I've been thinking about an idea that may I believe could help: "Fixed terms for admins" ie. that admin status should no longer be awarded indefinitely and unconditionally, but should be subject to renewal every three or six months or so, by popular vote. I believe that this will deter admin abuse and "incentivise good judgement" - admins who abuse their status to the extent that they alienate the community just wouldn't be re-elected. At the moment I think we have a classic case of "Who guards the guardians". I'd be interested to know what you think about this possible solution. 14:32, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Deleted Stories
It is highly unlikely that all deleted stories will be restored. You can however view some information on deleted stories such as edit history, and reason for deletion by clicking on the stories red link in the deletion log. If you see any stories that you believe may have been valid and deleted improperly please let me know and will be glad to e-mail you a copy of the story (except of course stories deleted for legal reasons). Most stories that are deleted are complete nonsense/vandalism or are abandoned stories that were started but never finished. In the time I have been on Wikinews I have seen only one or two stories that were complete and not nonsense, both of these stories were deleted after being voted on DR. --Cspurrier 16:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Institutional bias concerns

 * Hi again - many thanks for those comments - I think we're basically in agreement over the nature of the problem, and in the need for some kind of "perestroika" (I liked your allusion to "regime change"). I think you've laid out a very convincing argument for the community to make a sustained effort to roll back and curtail admin abuses, and I'm happy to start trying to put that into practice. I don't see this as an "either-or"

 * But my main concern is the one you highlight at the end of your analysis - ie. it's going to be a lot of hard work and, at least initially, something of an uphill struggle, with, in my view, a pretty uncertain outcome. In the past, such efforts have often/always resulted in a backlash by abusive administrators against the users who are trying to highlight and curtail admin abuses. The basic problem as I see it is a structural one. Editors who try to initiate sanctions against an administrator they believe to have acted abusively can, apparently, under the rules, be "punished" with blocks if those with the power to block them believe that the effort to initiate sanctions was based on "spurious" claims (I fell foul of this on one occasion). And of course the question of what is and isn't "spurious" is also, in large part, a matter of whatever the Administrators judge to be spurious. So, in my view at least, the odds are heavily stacked against those who would seek to initiate any sanctions whatsoever through the existing system.

 * The "fixed term" solution turns the tables. It's no longer about the community having to justify (in the face of sustained incoming fire!) the removal of status from an abusive admin (who may also be playing a determining role in deciding the case and then punishing those who brought it!). It suddenly becomes about the admin's performance being scrutinised by the community on a reasonably regular basis (maybe every 3-6 months). Wise and courteous admins will have nothing to fear from such a system. But if an admin has been abusive to the extent that more than 50% of community participants feel unable to express "trust" in them, then they will lose their status until such time as they have regained the trust of the community. Crucially, editors will have nothing to fear in casting their vote either for or against status renewal, and they will not have to justify their vote in terms of any other question than the issue of trust. At the moment there are strong "disincentives" towards initiating a vote for de-admin. Being "trusted by the community" is an essential precondition for becoming an admin, but once nominated they are free to lose as much trust as they like so long as no-one can pin them down to a specific violation of the (constantly changing and very vaguely defined) "rules". It's my belief that a democratic system would start, at least, to solve some, at least, of the very real problems that you've highlighted. I also believe that it would provide a more secure footing for the effective pursuit, by the community, of the further reforms that you've proposed, and which I strongly support. Rcameronw 18:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * PS - Of course, in the meantime, where admin abuses are occurring I'm happy to do what I can as a member of the community to support moves to de-admin, notwithstanding the drawbacks of the existing system. I've had serious concerns about recent episodes and would be happy to co-operate with and support community-wide efforts to enforce the admin abuse rules more robustly from now on. Rcameronw 18:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

De-editing
De-editing is removing a users edit privileges. It means that they may view pages but not edit. I have deleted the article "De-editing" that you created, as it was in the article namespace, but wasn't news. - Borofkin 03:51, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * All of the information regarding de-editing appears on Editors. It is only a proposed policy at the moment, so it has never been done (with the exception of blocking by Administrators, which happens all the time). - Borofkin 04:05, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

RfdAs
JWSchmidt, I fully agree with your comment: "The current policy says that a request to remove adminship can be made by documenting that "an admin has abused his privileges". I think this should be interpreted to include basic user privileges like editing." Sadly, this is interpretation is not shared by current administrators that enforce the rules (see the discussion between Amgine and me on out talk pages, or by Amgine's action of again cancelling an RfdA). Thus I believe it is important that the rules be changed. As the current discussion seems to be largely blocked by people that don't want the rules to change I believe that changing back to "no rules" is the best way to proceed. This is the only way to provide enough incentive for the people that block the current discussion to engage themselves constructively. At this point, I see no better strategy but to vote for "no rules", maybe you have a better idea? --vonbergm 00:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "test case"? There were several cases where RdfAs have been listed at least for a while and people provided some reasoning to why they did or did not support it. These are deleted right now, but will still come up if one digs through the history (a dreadful task). Similarly, even deleted articles are still available through the history, at least as far as I can tell. Getting to the root of the problem is a good idea. But first, what do you think the main problem is? When you say "institutional bias", what does that mean for a wiki? institution=administrators? or contributers? --vonbergm 05:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

 * About the test case. There has been no good effort to document problematic behaviour of administrators. I believe Neutralizer has a "running list" on his userspace, but this is rather rough and unrefind and does not really serve the purpose. I don't believe that abuse of admin privileges, like blocking in violation of policy, is necessarily the "worst" type of behaviour for administrators. MrM for example has violated policy in protecting an article (the al-jazeera article) that he was involved in a dispute about. although this is problematic, there are other aspects of administrator behaviour that worry me a lot more. for example, the "john wayne syndrome" that you described. MrM seems to think that on wikinews there is good and evil, and that he is the last bastion of the good and as soon as he gives way, evil editors will push their POV into every article. I have spent time cleaning up an article that MrM started that was not just POV but contained lots POV motivated factual inaccuracies. In other articles he insisted that NYT is categorically not a reliable source that should be used on wikinews, but he used a political blog as his main source for that article. Or his insistance on awkward formulations that overemphasise the e.g. "alleged", "undocumented", or "unverified" nature of information in conflict with his POV. It is these inconsistencies that show how his actions are motivated by his personal bias.
 * When it comes to Neutralizer, I agree that he also has problems to keep his personal bias out of articles. The fundamental differences that I see however are that a) he is not an administrator and does not have the status and powers that comes with it, so his POV actions will not be as damaging as that of administrators, and b) that he seems willing to accept criticism and work on it, even though it might take him longer than it should to learn this. For example, Neutralizer seemed to have made an honest effort in the mediation process, whereas Amgine essentially told the mediator to shove it when he did not like the mediators suggestions regarding himself.
 * Personal bias can be very harmful to the project on one hand, on the other hand it drives wikinews. I believe that a lot of good reporting on wikinews is motivated by personal bias. That is why certain people edit certain type of stories and not others. I believe that this is ok as long as the personal bias only enters in the choice of the articles one invests time in, and does not creep into the text of the article.
 * One approach to deal with personal bias could be a mentoring program. For example, one could assign an editor with similar POV but superior NPOV writing ability to, say, Neutralizer. This editor would monitor Neutralizers edits and tutor him how to write his news artiles without pushing his POV. Since they have similar POV on many issues, Neutralizer is much more likely to accept the criticism as constructive and learn from it, as opposed to (possibly POV-motivated) criticism from, say, MrM. After Neutralizer has made sufficient progress in his writing, the mediator and Neutralizer could work on recognizing and NPOV taging and commenting on other articles. Of course, MrM could subject to a simiar procedure (which as opposed to Neutralizer he probably will not accept). But in principle this will make Wikinews a lot smoother. --vonbergm 19:13, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

As I understand the way wikinews works (or is supposed to work) right now, the conflicts arising from personal bias are supposed to be resolved by argument compromize and consensus. This works pretty well in most cases, but not at all in others. This is how I see the community "protecting us from our own biases". In principle, I believe that this system works well. How do you plan to analyze the causes for breakdowns of this system systematically? I have not been around at wikinews for too long either, and I probably can't add anything about Neutrlizers personality. It seems to me that he is serious about bird flu (although he clearly also has other interestes) and he realized (it looks like eloquence suggested this to him) that this is a good topic to practice on as it tends to be less controvercial. you would have to talk to him directly to find out more, but considering his aboundend energy, there is a possibility that with only a little bit of couching from your side and a lot of work from his, we would get grear bird flu coveage on wikinews. And you pointed out what happenes when is energies are misguided... ;-) "Distributed mentoring" sounds excellent, although I have no clear picture of it as of yet. Having one mentor per trainee is also too much work and responsibility to be realistic. Here is one idea that might go in that direction: One could set up a system where a regular offender, say Neutralizer, would agree to be mentored by a certain selection of editors. That would mean that his comments and edits come in two colors, the "unmentored" color that Neutralizers edits would carry once he makes them, and the "mentored" colors, that is one of the mentors has approved it as "constructive" or "not helpful". in the former case the color would turn to the same as all other edits, in the latter it would become crossed out. This way Neutralizer and others could learn from mistakes, and people with opposite POV will not need to become worked up when they encounter a problematic commnet, as they could just ignore it until a mediator deals with it. Of course, submitting to such a system is voluntary and subject to enough people being willing and able to act as mediators. The colors would be problematic once it comes to editing published articles of course. So maybe trainees should categorically not edit published articles, unless for corecting typos, etc. They could of course still make comments on the talk pages.
 * Btw, Bawolff left a comment for you on my talk page after your last comment.

--vonbergm 00:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * PS: I forgot to link the article that MrM protected although he was involved in a dispute. (There is a new article out with almost identical content, I guess that happend because people were frustrated when they could not edit this article any more.) --vonbergm 00:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I came to the same conclusion regarding this article. I do not believe that this is a good enough reason for an RfdA. If this was the only reason given for an RfdA I would not support it. The protection was lifted fairly shortly after MrMs initial protection, but then MessedRocker protected the page again for quite a while. When pressed for an explanation, he could not give one, but indicated that MrM asked him to protect the page. Although his conduct was also sub-optimal, he seemd to have acknowledged that fact and I am hopeful that next time around he will take more time to take a close look of the situation before jumpting to comclusions and using heavy guns. --vonbergm 15:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:JWSchmidt


text:
Joachim to attempt breaking record for static cycling

On 18 October 2005 at 11 am, multi-Guinness World Record holder Suresh Joachim will attempt to break the world record for the longest time in a static cycling marathon. He will attempt to pedal on the same bicycle for 100-hours at the Metrocentre in the UK, with only 15 minutes breaks every four hours.

The current record is held jointly by Niels Rietveld and Edwin Snijders, both of the Netherlands, who set the record at Sports Studio Buiten in Almere, Netherlands. The duo cycled simultaneously for 77 hours and 15 minutes, from 30 April to 3 May 2004.

If successful in his 100-hour marathon, he will beat the previous record by 22-hours and 45-minutes. The riding will hopefully cease 22 October at 3 pm.

Suresh recently beat records for longest time ironing while standing up in Brampton, Ontario, and longest time watching television, shown on Live with Regis and Kelly in New York City. He has over thirty other records to his name. Joachim lives in Mississauga, Ontario.

Joachim's record attempts are used as fundraisers for the Universal Fund For Suffering Children.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Grenade set off outside Tajik ministry

October 15, 2005

A woman set off a hand grenade outside the Tajikistan Ministry of Emergencies, killing herself.

The incident, which happened on October 9, has not been claimed by any groups. It is unknown whether the attack, and two similar happenings earlier this year, were by a terrorist group. Some Western diplomats suggest the first two bombs were linked to business disputes or political vendettas.

The woman died in an ambulance, en route to the hospital. The grenade was hidden in her handbag.

title: Grenade set off outside Tajik ministry


text:
Iraq counting ballots

October 17, 2005 Iraq's election commission announced Monday that officials were investigating "unusually high" numbers of "yes" votes in about a dozen provinces during Iraq's landmark referendum on a new constitution, raising questions about irregularities in the balloting. The Electoral Commission made no mention of fraud, and an official with knowledge of the election process cautioned that it was too early to say whether the unusual numbers were incorrect or if they would have an effect on the outcome.

The Bush administration has touted last weekend's referendum in Iraq as progress but analysts said on Monday the new constitution was too ambiguous and that violence still overshadowed Iraq's political future. Partial results from Saturday's referendum indicated a victory for the constitution the United States hopes will help stabilize Iraq and ultimately lead to 156,000 U.S. troops coming home.

The historic Iraqi vote on the proposed draft constitution ended on Saturday, and ballots are now being tallied. Initial reports show the draft constitution will be supported. Security during voting day was tightened, although the U.S. military has announced that five American soldiers and a marine were killed by a bomb blast on the day of the referendum, bringing the U.S. death toll in Iraq to 1,971.

Early returns showed the vote was split as was expected along largely communal lines. Opponents failed to secure the necessary two-thirds "no" vote in any three of Iraqi's 18 provinces, according to counts that local officials provided to The Associated Press. In the crucial central provinces with mixed ethnic and religious populations, enough Shiites and Kurds voted to block the Sunni attempt to reject the constitution. Local election officials gave a picture of a strong "Yes" vote in the Shiite Muslim provinces of the south, and of a substantial "No" vote in the Sunni Arab heartlands of the north and west.

Rejection of the draft constitution appears to be impossible according to initial vote counts reported in the three key provinces that Sunni Arab opponents relied on to defeat the draft constitution. Opponents need a two-thirds "no" vote in three of those provinces. They may have reached the threshold in Anbar and Salahuddin, but Diyala and Ninevah provinces appeared to have gone strongly "Yes".

According to the Arab News, it is probable that the Iraqis have agreed to the new constitution. It is believed that its passing is almost certain because the majority, both Shiite and Kurds, supported it. The Sunnis, on the other hand, have looked at the constitution as a "death sentence." They fear that the document, drafted as it was by a Kurdish-Shiite-dominated Parliament, will ultimately divide Iraq into three separate districts: a powerful ministate of Kurds in the north, the majority Shiites in the south, both capitalizing on Iraq’s oil wealth, and the Sunnis, according to this scenario, would be left impoverished and isolated somewhere in the middle.

President Bush referred to the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking in London as the vote-count in Iraq was in progress, said the draft constitution had probably passed. Rice said later the final result was still not known. An unofficial tally is expected on Thursday and a final announcement on Oct. 24, senior electoral official Farid Ayyar stated on Sunday. It is expected that the official count will take several days.

Electoral officials estimated that as many as 10 million of Iraq's eligible 15.5 million voters cast ballots, which would yield a turnout of around 63 to 64 percent. In the January election which approved their interim government, 58 percent of voters turned out.

President Bush said in his weekly radio address Saturday that the weekend election is a critical step forward in the quest for democracy in Iraq. For the draft constitution to be approved after the months of negotiations by lawmakers in Iraq's transitional National Assembly, a majority of voters must support it. With what is believed to be strong support in Shiite and Kurdish communities, who together account for more than three-quarters of the population, the 50% threshold is expected to be met.

A rejection of the draft constitution would be viewed by coalition members as serious blow to the political evolution in Iraq that followed the U.S. led invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein in 2003. The transitional assembly would be dissolved, and the process of writing a new constitution would have to start all over after a new assembly could be elected in December. Regardless of the outcome, Iraq will hold parliamentary elections on December 15, the office of the President said on Sunday.

A new, permanent government, could possibly clear the way for the United States and its coalition allies to begin a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

title: Iraq counting ballots


text:
User talk:84.121.35.52

Welcome
84.121.35.52, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Chiacomo (talk) 21:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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Categories
I have reverted your creation of a Sexuality category and removed its insertion in several articles. Wikinews uses categories for a specific purpose in our DPL structure. --Chiacomo (talk) 21:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:84.121.35.52


text:
User talk:Roey~enwikinews

Welcome
Roey, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Roey. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Roey~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

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Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Roey~enwikinews


text:
Riots break out at Neo-Nazi rally in Toledo, Ohio

October 16, 2005

Calm has been restored after a Saturday rally held by members of the National Socialist Movement (NSM) in Toledo, Ohio. led to a state of emergency being declared when riots ensued. Fifty highway patrol officers were called in to support city police and to help control the crowd. The unrest prompted the implementation of a city-wide 8 P.M. curfew.

The police force, which gave permission and protection to the neo-nazi group to hold the planned rally, claimed they were caught by surprise in the counter-protest that ensued. Police resorted to tear gas to disperse the crowd of nearly 500. Over 60 demonstrators were arrested.

Opposition to the rally was mounted by concerned citizens and a coalition of political groups organized as an Anti-Racist Action group. The actions of the counter-demontrators effectively ended the march just as it was getting started. During the riot, several vehicles had their windows broken and one was set on fire at a gas station; a local pub was looted and burned.

Toledo Mayor Jack Ford suggested that it was the NSM's objective to incite violence, "Based on the intelligence we received, that's exactly what they do — they come into town and get people riled up." Mayor Ford, an African-American, was puzzled as to why the NSM chose Toledo, and said of the rally location, "It is not a neighborhood where you have a lot of friction in the first place."

About 20 members of the International Socialists Organization and the One People's Project were present in opposition to the NSM rally. The NSM has alleged these groups handed eggs to some African-American counter demonstrators.

The NSM bills itself as America's Nazi Party and claims it was there to protest black gangs which, according to NSM spokesman Bill White, have been harassing white residents. White also claimed that the NSM received support from community activists and citizens.

In a statement on the NSM's website, White stated, "Well, what happened is that little groups of our supporters started to gather at the police barricades, as they tried to figure out how to get in. The communists spotted one of those groups, and started running at them. That was the spark that lit the riot."

In response to the NSM statements, the One People's Project co-founder Daryle Lamont Jenkins said, "Bill White has done this to us before. In the past, he has written on his website that I and this organization orchestrated a rape, that I joined controversial communist organizations after being fired from a police force in New Jersey (I never worked for a police force in New Jersey) and even that I was soliciting nude photos of him!"

Jenkins continued, "In regards to what happened in Toledo on Saturday, we feel we should make our position clear. While white supremacists and other questionable groups have the right to speak, we have that right as well, and when these groups come out we will use that right to respond. In fact, we feel that we are obligated to do so given the fact that these groups are using these rights to advocate taking them and others from the rest of us."


text:
Talk:Iraq counting ballots

Great Work
Good concise reporting. Neutralizer 21:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed, this is incredible reporting. Great job! --Wolfrider 23:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * If we do not praise ourselves, who will?

title: Talk:Iraq counting ballots


text:
Talk:Girl's flu case found to be drug-resistant

Biggest story of the century?
May be. Neutralizer 21:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

whoa! it did not say anything about it being a mutated form from her brother. Check your sources! 68.250.40.159 04:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


text:
Malawi appeals for further humanitarian aid

October 15, 2005 Bingu wa Mutharika, president of Malawi, has declared the massive food shortages in his country a national disaster. The declaration comes on the heels of mounting criticism from his opposition as well as church groups in Malawi that have urged him to do more to highlight the problem. Mutharika has also been criticised for denying reports of casualties from hunger-related illnesses. The United Nations World Food Program has welcomed the declaration, stating that he is finally acknowledging the seriousness of the situation. The UN estimates that five million people will be in need of aid in the coming year. The president has noted that all 28 districts of his country are affected and that, in addition to the 300,000 tons of food being imported from South Africa, another 144,000 will be needed.

"We are facing a national disaster affecting the lives of our people," he said.

The food shortages have been blamed on one of the worst harvests Malawi has experienced in over a decade as well as the growing HIV/AIDS crisis. Because Malawi is a landlocked country whose economy is almost entirely dependent on agriculture, poor harvests can have drastic impacts on the population. Most of the country feeds themselves through subsistence farming. Additionally, during the mid-eighties and nineties Malawi took in over a million refugees from Mozambique, which placed a significant strain on the economy but also opened it to foreign aid.

The United Nations has attempted to restructure Malawi's economy through programs from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

Relief agencies have been scrambling to deal with the crisis. UNICEF Regional Director for Eastern and Southern Africa, Per Engebak has said, "The numbers of malnourished children are many times higher than the normal emergency threshold."

It is predicted that the disaster will be worse than the humanitarian crisis that plagued the country three years ago. Admissions to Nutrition Rehabilitation Units, run by a coalition of aid agencies as well as the Ministry of Health, have risen by 25 percent.

Church groups in the country have been assisting in the emergency. The Council of Churches in Malawi, which brings together 22 denominations, has been applying pressure to the government. In addition to the food crisis, Rev Matiya Nkhoma has highlighted the problems of political instability in the country.

The food crisis is not just a danger to Malawi. The UN estimates that 12 million people are in need of aid in Southern Africa.

Related Stories

 * Malawi food appeal unanswered by world community


text:
Talk:Riots break out at Neo-Nazi rally in Toledo, Ohio

You need to write a longer article with more information. Your citation style is also incorrect. Lines like "less than welcoming reaction of the non-white residents." and "by all accounts was far less violent than the era of nazism being celebrated" while clever do not conform to the Wikinews NPOV policy. Please read the guidelines before publishing the story. Also this line, "Later, Fox Cable had hosts and guests defending the right of neo-nazis to march in a predominantly black neighborhood citing the right of free expression and association." needs work. Get some actual quotations. Don't just focus on Fox News, as it seems like you're presenting that in a negative light and Wikinews is not the place for anti-Fox rhetoric (deserved as it may be). You need to provide far more detail about the story. As it stands it should not be published. --Wolfrider 22:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

an important story
I would suggest that this story is important but very complex and highly controversial. As such, perhaps a number of writers could bring in a number of objective sources, which arguably Fox News is not. It would appear the police were protecting free speech and that the community protesters exerted their free speech and the police got caught in the middle. So we have the neo-Nazis, the minority community and the police ... and now a state of emergency.

--Psusen 00:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Still major problems
Despite this being an important story, it is seriously lacking in information and still does not conform to Wikinews NPOV policy. Specifically phrases such as, "Nazi uprising" and "significant casualties". I also do not understand the line about Fox News defending the marchers. Provide context to your article. I'm not sure if Mr. Gatti is constantly reverting the changes to this article to be arch, or if he simply does not understand Wikinews policy. If it is the latter, I urge him to read the help sections and look at other published articles to get an idea of what is expected. If needed I will rewrite the story later on tonight unless someone else can get to it. I'm AGAIN, flagging this article as NPOV and moving back to the development page. DO NOT publish this article again without community consensus and additional information. --Wolfrider 15:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed some offending phrases, but left the fox news bit in anyways, since Fox did report the story before anyone else and did some disturbing censorship of its own reporters.

 * Can you provide examples and citation about it? It would be interesting to read? --Wolfrider 15:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere "offical", though to be honest mainstream media sources would never carry it. If you could find someone with a taped copy of the Fox News coverage then you could pick it out.  I hear it was edited out of the video news clip on Fox News website.  I've seen it mentioned on various forums and web blogs. --128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

"Source" overthrow.com
Do we have to link (and thus endorse) to a website that has a picture of the mass-murderer Heinrich Himmler on every page right next to the phrase "Join the National Socialist Movement"? --Deprifry | +T+ 16:02, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Link removed due to 404 on target server. --Pvtparts 23:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It's ucomfortable for me too. Unfortunately the link is a legitimate source and does provide information that can be useful to fleshing out the story. --Wolfrider 16:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Legitimate how? This site doesn't even come close to a reliable source and it's impossible to distinguish between real information (if any is present) and plain propaganda. --Deprifry | +T+ 16:26, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well it's useful for providing the NSM's view of things. Which, despite how dirty it makes me feel, is necessary for a balanced article. --Wolfrider 16:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The link is the website of Bill White, and it contains vital information regarding the riot. If you don't believe it is accurate, then you might be politically motivated.  Why should we only allow the communist/socialist perspective and not Bill White, who has already shown himself to be honest when it comes to reporting this event?  Or perhaps only communist ADL types are the only NPOV sources we can trust?

You just want to throw out any information that doesn't further your communist nonsense. Please become NPOV. I'm glad Wolfrider is being fair, at any rate.--128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * FYI: I'm also mentally and physically retarded, black, jewish and gay. So if you want to do some further Personal attacks, here's your ammunition. --Deprifry | +T+ 18:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey, I happen to be a communist you capitalist dog. I'm defending it because the article has to hear from both sides, no matter how retarded those sides happen to be. It's purely in the effort of balancing the article. --Wolfrider 20:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

== Mostly black neighborhood

Is this true? I've heard the neighborhood referred to as a Polish neighborhood that was being overcome with black crime. If that is the case, it would be akin to saying that Chicago was mostly Italian in the 1920s and 1930s because of the Mafia. --128.2.141.33 18:11, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Good point. Can someone veryify this? --Wolfrider 20:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Completely POV
This is probably the most biased article I have seen on WN so far. It almost entirely only presents the Nazi's POV:

 * Calm has been restored after a Saturday rally held by members of the National Socialist Movement (NSM) to protest black gang violence (1) in Toledo, Ohio was met with less than a warm reception (2) by non-white residents (3) and anti-racist groups. The police force, which gave permission and protection to the neo-nazi group to hold the planned rally was surprised by the counter-protest that ensued.

 * The minority opposition (4) to the rally was forceful, and was thought to be egged on and armed by various local communist and socialist (5) groups such as the Anti-Racist Action. The counter-rally was not deadly (6) and effectively ended the march as it was getting started. During the riot, several vehicles had their windows broken and one was set on fire at a gas station; a local pub was burned down by rioters.

 * Toledo Mayor Jack Ford accused the marchers of intentionally inciting the violence. He said this was "...exactly what they wanted." Police resorted to tear gas to disperse the crowd of nearly 500. As many as 60 counter-rally protestors were arrested. Mayor Ford declared a state of emergency and called on state police for the assistance to help city police maintain order. An 8pm curfew was put in place.

 * About 20 members of the International Socialists Organization and the One People's Project, who were marching in opposition to the National Socialist Movement, reportedly handed eggs to some African-American counter marchers. (7)

 * The NSM bills itself as America's Nazi Party and claims it was there to protest black gangs which, according to NSM spokesman Bill White, have been harrassing white residents. White also claimed that the NSM recieved support from community activists and citizens. (8)

 * Fox Cable had hosts and guests defending the right of neo-nazis to march in a predominantly black neighborhood, citing the constitutional right of free expression and association. One incident in particular was when Paige Hopkins, a reporter for Fox News, was cut mid-sentence and replaced by someone who was not a regular anchor while reporting on the story. (9)

1: Claim by the NSM, disputed by locals 2: "less than warm reception"? What sort of style is this? 3: Implies that white residents of Toledo endorse the Nazis 4: Opinion about strength of opposition 5: Claim by the NSM, no independant source, disputed by One Peoples Project 6: "not deadly"? A demonstration without fatalities?. That's really rare at demonstrations in the US, right? 7: see 5 8: White said this, White said that. Where are the response to these allegations? 9: Completely unsourced

IMHO, this article is beyond repair. --Deprifry | +T+ 18:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Good points. -Edbrown05 18:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I think when dealing with a story like this it's easy to, in an attempt to balance things, to move to far in one direction. I'll try to tackle your points one by one.

1:I think the term claim (at least how I use it) is to imply that this is their "opinion" and is not meant to give their opinion more relevance than others. 2:I agree this is a stupid sentence. It was part of the original article which accused Fox News of being a ("bastian of right wing issues"). 3:Claiming that they had "support" from community members and activists was taken from CNN's piece, with the article from Overthrow.com, we can use actual quotes from Bill White which will enforce that this is merely his side of the story. 4:Agreed. 5:Agreed. To be fair, I added most of the NSM stuff myself. In no way do I agree with their opinion it just happened to be the first I started working on. 6:Agreed. "The counter rally was not deadly" ridiculous line. Also, part of the oringial writers post and what prompted me to flag it as NPOV and remove it from the front page. 8: They aren't there because I haven't had time to add them. I'm trying to salvage someone elses article. Please add them. 9: Unsourced? I'm not sure what you mean. [Edit] Okay, now I know what you mean. Was looking at the wrong part. Actually I was looking at the wrong parts for most of these responses. Oi, I'm tired. ;-)

I don't think this is beyond repair. We should cover it. It's just going to require us to remove most of it. It is a mess. --Wolfrider 20:28, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Neutral Now?
I've gone over Deprify's critiques and adjusted the article accordingly. The only thing I didn't alter was the claim that some of the counter-protestors handed eggs out. I think it's a small, but nonetheless legitimate element to the story and sourced by CNN, so it stays. I don't think I've missed any of the other complaints. If there's no objections I think we can publish it. I'll leave it up to other users to decide to remove the tag and publish it. If there's no movement by morning I'll do it myself.

Thanks for the list Dep, it made editing the thing a whole lot easier. --Wolfrider 04:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Wow. Didn't thought that was possible. Great work, thanks a lot. --Deprifry | +T+ 08:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

CNN said that White said the eggs were handed out by the communists. I've updated that. I also pointed out that nobody knows who lit the fires. Could have been rioters, but who knows. Good article though (mostly). Wisty 04:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


text:
UK Christian group plans to highlight concerns about new law by using it to ban the Qur'an

October 15, 2005 Christian Voice, a UK-based Christian evangelical group has announced that it will press for the prosecution, under "hate speech" legislation, of bookshop staff who sell copies of Islam's most sacred text, the Qur'an.

The British government will shortly introduce a new law which is intended to ban incitement to religious hatred.

Christian Voice say that their campaign is actually a protest against this new law, which they believe could be used to stop Christian preachers criticising Islam or "explaining the horrors of Hinduism".

"If the Qur'an is not hate speech, I don't know what is", Christian Voice director Stephen Green told the Guardian newspaper earlier this week, arguing that the Qur'an incites the killing of non-Muslims.

Christian Voice has previously campaigned against the musical "Jerry Springer the Opera", believing it to be blasphemous.

According to the Guardian, the activities of Christian Voice, which it describes as a "fringe fundamentalist" group have "regularly appalled" other Christian groups. But some of the concerns raised by Christian Voice on this particular issue are more widely shared.

The British government says that the new law is needed in order to "draw a line in the sand" and protect religious people from attack.

But critics say that such protections already exist in British law, and fear that the new legislation, as currently designed, could end up being used inappropriately.

In July, the actor Rowan Atkinson (best known for his role in the television series "Blackadder" and "Mr. Bean") described the law as "a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Atkinson raised concerns that it could be used to suppress the satirisation of organised religion. Lord Carey, the former head of the Church of England, has warned that the "hate speech" law "threatens civil liberties". Hundreds of Christians protested against the law outside Parliament earlier this week. The government insists that the law is intended to "protect the believer, not the belief", and that it will not affect "criticism, commentary or ridicule of faiths".


text:
Talk:UK Christian group plans to highlight concerns about new law by using it to ban the Qur'an

Immediately after I started this I noticed that it should have been Qur'an, not Q'uran! Would someone be able to tell me how I can change the title? 80.43.5.75 22:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You need to create an account to be able to move stories. Once you have an account just click "Rename"--Cspurrier 23:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Try not to miss the important deatils...
The article makes no mention of the fact that this group is actually protesting the law itself. These sorts of details are important ya know ;)

 * Well I had missed that one - thanks for pointing out (but in my defence, this article is only in the "develop" stage) 80.43.5.75 06:13, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Psusen

Welcome
, welcome to Wikinews! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay! If you haven't done so already, you may want to create an account.

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * And of course, stories need writing!

Iraq ballot
Hi :)

I wouldn't normally jump into a story so quickly that you are actively working on; but it was published (rather than 'developing'), and is important news, and who knows maybe a car would drive thru yours or my house any moment before the Print Edition is due out!! Best regards. -Edbrown05 23:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi again :)

 * At some point, as the election results become less speculative, a new story should be started. Glad you are keeping an eye on developments. Best regards -Edbrown05 18:46, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Iraq election
I think the update is interesting. Just put it with a new title, like "Iraq vote optimism premature" in "submit a story" and I will work on it also tomorrow. Neutralizer 23:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * ok I just moved your entire update to a new story.Optimism over Iraq's vote now in question in developing Neutralizer 23:40, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry, would you please finish the story? I have trouble being objective as I consider the entire "vote while occupied" a flawed process. Neutralizer 14:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

record of 'Optimism over Iraqi vote' story
Hi! I put a record of this story here for your use. I will be making some major changes to the story in 'Developing'. Please add to that in any way you see fit. Basically, I want to make that story specific to latest events (a day or two) on the vote counts. Best regards. -Edbrown05 23:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

October 21, 2005

Remember the referendum? Last weekend the world's airwaves were full of broadcasts about the success of the voting in which millions "defied the insurgents" by turning out to cast their ballots. Then we heard preliminary but "informed" speculation that the constitution had passed. Majorities of Kurds and Shiites had given it enthusiastic support in the north and south-east. In Sunni areas, where voters had been expected to reject it, not enough had come forward to turn it down.

The rule was that if two-thirds of voters in any three provinces rejected the constitution, it would fail. Election officials conceded that two-thirds had done so in the two fiercely anti-American provinces that include Falluja, Ramadi and Tikrit. But Nineveh, which Sunnis share with Kurds and Christians, had apparently not produced a big enough no vote.

Initial figures leaked by electoral officials suggested the "yes" vote won in 16 of Iraq's 18 provinces, with a vast majority in Salahuddin and Anbar voting "no." That would mean the constitution's passage, but it is not known how the audit will affect the final figures.

Six days after the election, the world still waits for the official outcome of the Iraq election on the draft constitution. The result of Iraq's constitutional referendum will not be announced for at least another day or two, a senior official of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq (IECI) said on Friday. The Oct. 15 referendum on a constitution opposed by many Sunni Arabs had been expected to pass, but officials have been recounting the ballots in some areas because of unusual patterns of reported results. The outcome of the election is not certain.

The vote count in Nineveh may hold the key. According to the widely cited preliminary figures announced by the spokesman for the IECI in Nineveh, 326,000 people voted for the constitution and 90,000 against. Those figures were said to be based on results from more than 90 percent of the 300 polling stations in the province. Relying on those "unofficial" figures, the media reported that the constitution appeared to have been passed, on the assumption that the Sunnis had failed to muster the necessary two-thirds "no" vote in Nineveh. No further official results have been released by the IECI since then. However, according to the U.S. military liaison with the IECI in Nineveh, Maj. Jeffrey Houston, the final totals for the province were 424,491 "no" votes and 353,348 "yes" votes. This means that the earlier figures actually represented only 54 percent of the official vote total, not 90 percent. It now appears that the votes which had not been revealed earlier went against the constitution by a ratio more than 12 to 1. However, even if the numbers reported by Major Houston are correct, that would represent only a 54% rejection of the draft constitution in Nineveh, not the two-thirds required.

The final figures revealed by the U.S. military liaison with the IECI suggest a voter turnout in Nineveh that is far below some projections based on similar results in comparable sections of Iraq. On a day when Sunni turnout reached 88 percent in Salahuddin province and 90 percent in Fallujah, a total of only 778,000 votes, the 60 percent tally of the eligible voters in Nineveh appears anomalous. The critical question on which the outcome of the election would turn therefore is the validity of the vote count in Nineveh.

Several news organizations are now reporting that the credibility of Iraq’s constitutional referendum has been undermined by allegations of vote rigging in as many as 12 of the country’s 18 provinces. The alleged "vote rigging" could be of serious significance in Nineveh and Diyala, two Sunni majority provinces. In at least one, it was expected that no votes would approach the two-thirds level. If that had happened, the constitution would be rejected because in two other Sunni provinces, Salaheddin and Anbar, two thirds of voters have apparently said ‘no’. Early reporting of the vote in Nineveh, where the largely Sunni city of Mosul is the capital, suggested that 70-80 per cent of voters had rejected the controversial document. Therefore, it was surprising when official results indicated that there was an overwhelming vote in favour.

Chief electoral officer Adel Alami is on record saying the voting figures were a matter of concern. Some election personnel have also questioned remarks by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that the Constitution appeared to have been approved. Hussein Hindawi, an official at the commission, said he was "surprised" by the observation. Karina Parelli, head of the United Nations Election Assistance Team in Iraq, also questioned Dr. Rice's controversial statement. Iraq's election commission announced Monday that officials were investigating "unusually high" numbers of "yes" votes in about a dozen provinces during Iraq's landmark referendum on a new constitution, raising questions about irregularities in the balloting. The Electoral Commission made no mention of fraud, and an official with knowledge of the election process cautioned that it was too early to say whether the unusual numbers were incorrect or if they would have an effect on the outcome.

The Bush administration has touted last weekend's referendum in Iraq as progress but analysts said on Monday the new constitution was too ambiguous and that violence still overshadowed Iraq's political future. Partial results from Saturday's referendum indicated a victory for the constitution the United States hopes will help stabilize Iraq and ultimately lead to 156,000 U.S. troops coming home.

The historic Iraqi vote on the proposed draft constitution ended on Saturday, and ballots are now being tallied. Initial reports show the draft constitution will be supported. Security during voting day was tightened, although the U.S. military has announced that five American soldiers and a marine were killed by a bomb blast on the day of the referendum, bringing the U.S. death toll in Iraq to 1,971.

Early returns showed the vote was split as was expected along largely communal lines. Opponents failed to secure the necessary two-thirds "no" vote in any three of Iraqi's 18 provinces, according to counts that local officials provided to The Associated Press. In the crucial central provinces with mixed ethnic and religious populations, enough Shiites and Kurds voted to block the Sunni attempt to reject the constitution. Local election officials gave a picture of a strong "Yes" vote in the Shiite Muslim provinces of the south, and of a substantial "No" vote in the Sunni Arab heartlands of the north and west.

Rejection of the draft constitution appears to be impossible according to initial vote counts reported in the three key provinces that Sunni Arab opponents relied on to defeat the draft constitution. Opponents need a two-thirds "no" vote in three of those provinces. They may have reached the threshold in Anbar and Salahuddin, but Diyala and Ninevah provinces appeared to have gone strongly "Yes".

According to the Arab News, it is probable that the Iraqis have agreed to the new constitution. It is believed that its passing is almost certain because the majority, both Shiite and Kurds, supported it. The Sunnis, on the other hand, have looked at the constitution as a "death sentence." They fear that the document, drafted as it was by a Kurdish-Shiite-dominated Parliament, will ultimately divide Iraq into three separate districts: a powerful ministate of Kurds in the north, the majority Shiites in the south, both capitalizing on Iraq’s oil wealth, and the Sunnis, according to this scenario, would be left impoverished and isolated somewhere in the middle.

President Bush referred to the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, speaking in London as the vote-count in Iraq was in progress, said the draft constitution had probably passed. Rice said later the final result was still not known. An unofficial tally is expected on Thursday and a final announcement on Oct. 24, senior electoral official Farid Ayyar stated on Sunday. It is expected that the official count will take several days.

Electoral officials estimated that as many as 10 million of Iraq's eligible 15.5 million voters cast ballots, which would yield a turnout of around 63 to 64 percent. In the January election which approved their interim government, 58 percent of voters turned out.

President Bush said in his weekly radio address Saturday that the weekend election is a critical step forward in the quest for democracy in Iraq. For the draft constitution to be approved after the months of negotiations by lawmakers in Iraq's transitional National Assembly, a majority of voters must support it. With what is believed to be strong support in Shiite and Kurdish communities, who together account for more than three-quarters of the population, the 50% threshold is expected to be met.

A rejection of the draft constitution would be viewed by coalition members as serious blow to the political evolution in Iraq that followed the U.S. led invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein in 2003. The transitional assembly would be dissolved, and the process of writing a new constitution would have to start all over after a new assembly could be elected in December. Regardless of the outcome, Iraq will hold parliamentary elections on December 15, the office of the President said on Sunday.

A new, permanent government, could possibly clear the way for the United States and its coalition allies to begin a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

some general info. for you
Hi!

Here's a little stuff to help understand how things are customarily done around here:
 * 1) on a story's discussion page, if chose to 'add comment', in the input box describe the topic of the post rather than input your UserName (this is more descriptive for everybody on the 'Recent changes' page)
 * 2) Each contributor has a UserPage and a TalkPage created by default when they register an account. When you communicate with another user, post comments on their TalkPage rather than on their UserPage.
 * 3) Your UserPage is your turf, where the convention here is that all are invited to look, but nobody but you posts to it.

-Edbrown05 01:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please help us here at wikinews
I hope you will try to spend as much time on our site as possible. We desperately need some more good reporters/editors with guts and tenacity. Neutralizer 18:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * see what I mean? Neutralizer 22:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay...
I felt the article deserved a very in-depth analysis as to what and why it does not meet NPOV at this time. The article concept is excellent, but there are basic journalistic elements it does not meet. I hope you will take this critique as it is meant - an attempt to improve an article which has good potential. Frankly, I don't put in this much effort unless I think the article, and contributor, is both timely and valuable. - Amgine / talk 22:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Good story today
Thanks for writing it, and sorry to see that it got caught up in a wrangle.

Rcameronw 22:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Honduran flag
Here's an image on Commons that might be sufficient...Honduran flag.

I once tried to write a narrow focus story that in the end, it was only worth a paragraph of ink. I think that I was able to merge the content with another story. I kept an eye towards that on the story of your in developing, but in the end couldn't see how to make it work. My best suggestion would be at this point to back date it to the 24th, if that is appropriate. Best regards. -Edbrown05 01:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Libby lead-in
Sorry for un-doing some of the work you did on the lead. I thought it was important to get the flow directed towards the context of what Lewes did do, which was not leak (no charge there), rather it was he did not come clean with the investigators. -Edbrown05 20:36, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

2 questions
Can you define "senior White House official"? Also, is there a news-worthy distinction to be made beteen White House officials who resigned before being indicted and one who is indicted before resigning? --JWSchmidt 14:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Psusen


text:
Deceased Indonesian man had suspected case of bird flu

October 15, 2005

An Indonesian died of what is suspected to be bird flu, said an official yesterday. The man had symptoms of bird flu and had some contact with chickens but tested negative on his first test.

Indonesia currently has over 85 suspected bird flu cases and two confirmed and alive cases.

There is a possibility that the H5N1 virus might mutate and become highly contagious and lethal to humans. An example of such an epidemic is the 1918 disaster that killed millions around the globe.

Researchers say that Tamiflu might not be enough to hold the virus back.


text: User:MessedRocker

title: User:MessedRocker


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Dog flu spreads across the US

October 15, 2005

Dogs are normally resistant to most flu strains. Since about 2000, a new of dog flu has been spreading in America, and there's no  to prevent it.

To limit exposure to the flu, some dog owners are avoiding public places like dog shows and parks. Since the flu can spread where groups of dogs are housed, some dog owners are nervous about the practice of putting their pets in kennels. According to Edward Dubovil, director of the animal lab at Cornell University, 100% of dogs appear to be susceptible to infection by this new flu strain. It is estimated that 1-5% of infected dogs are dying from this flu strain. The symptoms of dog flu are akin to those of, a more common and less serious illness.

Starting in 2004 there have been many outbreaks of flu at dog race tracks. Since early in 2004, researchers have been working to characterize the type of flu that is infecting dogs. In September of 2005 it was reported that this dog flu strain had crossed over from horses to dogs. This type of flu virus has been infecting horses for at least 40 years. It is expected that existing flu vaccines for horses can soon be adapted for use in dogs.

The spread of a horse flu virus to dogs is an example of what could happen with bird flu. Currently the bird flu is transmitted from birds to humans but does not spread easily from person to person. The new strain of dog flu shows signs of having been genetically modified from the original horse-preferring virus strain making it easy to transmit from dog to dog. Future genetic modifications of bird flu could better adapt it to humans and allow it to spread from person to person. The chance of such viral evolution can be reduced by limiting exposure of humans to bird flu.

At this time, the new dog flu virus strain does not seem to be a danger for humans. However, humans will be monitored for signs of infection by new genetic variants of the dog flu. Due to the close physical association between pet dogs and humans, a flu strain that could jump from dogs to humans would be of great concern. Recently evolved virus strains that jump from one species to another are often particularly lethal because the newly infected species may have little or no to the new virus strain.

title: Dog flu spreads across the US


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Wikinews:Briefs/October 15, 2005

Audio Wikinews transcript - 2005 10 15 - 0415 UTC
The time is 0415 UTC on Sunday, October 16, 2005, and this is Audio Wikinews: News Briefs.

In Iraq, the ballots for the recent Iraqi election deciding the fate of the proposed constitution are being counted. About 65%, or 10 million of 15.5 million registered voters, arrived to cast their vote. Provinces with Sunni dominance, which may vote in opposition, could have major effect on the results. A permanent government in Iraq may result in the United States's, as well as other nation's, withdrawal from Iraq.

In Denmark, Princess Mary of Denmark has given birth to a healthy boy at a Copenhagen hospital at 1:57 AM local time. The child weighed three and a half kilograms, and was 51 centimeters long. Although the name is not known yet, it is most likely Christian, as according to tradition. The child will become heir apparent when his parents ascend to the throne.

And to many people's interest, scientists have claimed that cannabinoids, psychoactive chemicals found in marijuana, has resulted in brain growth in rats. The study proved true for both a synthetic cannabinoid and a cannabinoid extracted from a plant. It is not known yet whether these studies can be applied to humans, as there are large differences between rats and humans.

Thank you for joining us today. For more up-to-date news, see wikinews.org. This recording is released under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License.

title: Wikinews:Briefs/October 15, 2005


text:
Talk:Dog flu spreads across the US

This story is important because it provides an example of a virus moving between species. The same thing could happen with bird flu and humans. CNN has been running this story on TV today, so many readers will be ready for this topic.

Original article on horse to dog jump
If anyone wants a copy of these, send me an email.
 * News article in Science: "Horse Flu Virus Jumps to Dogs" by Martin Enserink in Science volume 309, page 2147, September 30, 2005.
 * Primary article: "Transmission of Equine Influenza Virus to Dogs" by P. C. Crawford et al in Science September 26, 2005. Published online.

Ready to publish?
I think this one is ready to be published.

I'm done working on it. Maybe one more editor should have a go at it. --JWSchmidt 14:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dog flu spreads across the US


text:
Insurgents kill monk and burn temple in south Thailand

October 16, 2005

In Thailand's troubled southern province of Pattani, a Buddhist monk was among three killed by insurgents attacking a temple.

Around ten suspected muslim militants took part in the fifteen minute long attack in the early hours of Sunday morning, leaving the 76-year-old monk, Kaew Panjapetchkaew, with his throat cut. They then proceeded to use gasoline to set fire to part of the temple. Upon putting out the fire, police investigators found the bodies of two teenage boys who had been helping at the temple. Both had died from gunshot wounds.

In an effort to conceal the attack, the insurgents had let off fireworks earlier thus distracting nearby villagers and police.


text:
User:Brian McNeil/work/South Thailand insurgency/Infobox

Location of Thailand in Asia


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Spanish police reportedly closing in on fugitive Nazi doctor

October 16, 2005

Spanish police believe they are close to capturing Aribert Heim, the 91-year-old known as "Dr. Death". Dr. Heim, described by The Times as "the most wanted Nazi still believed to be alive", is thought to be living in the town of Palafrugell in the Costa Brava area of Spain.

Heim worked as a doctor in a number of Nazi Germany concentration camps (Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen and Buchenwald) carrying out a series of experiments on the camp's Jewish inmates. His experiments reportedly included operating on a patient without anaesthetic to see how much pain a human being could endure, and injecting petrol into the bloodstream, then timing how long it took for the victim to die. Hundreds of people are believed to have died as a result of these experiments.

The Times reports that Heim led a normal civilian life after the end of the Second World War, but fled Germany in 1962, when the authorities were about to issue a warrant for his arrest. Nazi hunters, including researchers from the Simon Wiesenthal Center, have been looking for him ever since. The center's founder, Simon Wiesenthal, was himself active in pursuing Heim prior to his death last month.

German police received a tip six weeks ago by an Israeli citizen who met a man in Ibiza with characteristics similar to Heim. The police acknowledged the information was helpful. Other evidence pointing the trail to Palafrugell involve banking transfers and tax filings.


text: Wikinews:Sister projects

title: Wikinews:Sister projects


text:
Talk:Spanish police reportedly closing in on fugitive Nazi doctor

Readily admit to a personal bias here - I'm always happy when the law catches up with this kind of guy - but I've tried to keep it balanced (as far as I can tell Hein hasn't disputed the allegations - he just really, really doesn't want to be held to account for them) 80.43.5.75 13:33, 16 October 2005 (UTC) (aka rcameronw - my computer keeps signing me out and it's really starting to annoy me!)


text:
Help talk:Editing

What about developing vs. publishing? What are the guidelines for a story ready to be published? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DenGer~enwikinews (talk • contribs) 14:27, 16 October 2005

title: Help talk:Editing


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New national museum opens in Kyushu, Japan

October 16, 2005

The 4th National Museum of Japan opened on Saturday in Dazaifu, Fukuoka Prefecture, the northern part of Kyushu island. The new museum was named Kyushu National Museum, and nicknamed "Kyuhaku". It is the first national museum in Kyushu, including national art museums and thematic museums. After the opening ceremony with around 800 invited guests on last Saturday, Kyushu National Museum began to accept visitors starting on Sunday.

Different from its three sister museums which are over 100 years old and interested mainly in fine-arts, the new museum focuses on history. It also has an ambition to display how Japanese culture has developed from the prehistoric period to the mid 19th century with its collection of some 920 items including three national treasures. Its mission statement says the museum show how the Japanese culture has developed from the view of Asian history studies. Cultural interaction between other Asian countries is also a part of its mission, locating near to Korea or China.

Dazaifu, Fukuoka is a historic site in Japan and that was a part of reasons why it received the honor of hosting the new museum, the focus of which will be on history. Since the 7th century the extension of central government, Dazaifu was situated there from which the name of modern city derives. It was the military and administrative center of the government as well as the diplomatic center of Japan which hosted East Asian guests who visited Japan. Later the Mongol and Korean allies attempted to invade Japan in the 14th century, Dazaifu became one of fierce battlefields. Also Dazaifu is known its religious significance with Dazaifu Temmangu Shrine, one of famous cults in Shintoism which worships Sugawara no Michizane, the kami of scholars and studies. In addition to those tourist interests, the new museum is expected to stimulate tourists in much wider generations and interests.

Kyushu National Museum holds a special exhibition celebrating its opening from its public opening day till November 27. During this exhibition it will open everyday, though normally on Monday it will close.


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Welsh swimming squad named for 2006 Commonwealth Games

October 15, 2005

The Commonwealth Games Council for Wales has named the first group of swimmers in the swimming squad who will compete in the 2006 Commonwealth Games in Melbourne.

Among the six named is David Davies, Olympic and World Swimming Championships|World Swimming Championships bronze medal winner. The current squad list is:

 * 1) David Davies - City of Cardiff
 * 2) Thomas Haffield - City of Cardiff
 * 3) Julie Gould - Halesmere
 * 4) Bethan Coole - Swansea
 * 5) Jazmin Carlin - Tigersharks, Swindon
 * 6) Rhiannon Henry - Swansea

There will be a second chance to qualify at the Welsh Amateur Swimming Association Open Stage 3 Meet on December 3/4.


text:
User talk:69.162.17.100

Welcome
69.162.17.100, welcome to Wikinews! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Deprifry | +T+ 19:29, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
 * Cite sources - everything in a Wikinews article must be sourced
 * Introduction - overview of the site
 * Writing an article - how to write and publish a complete article
 * Content guide - what's suitable for Wikinews
 * Style guide - how articles should look before publishing
 * Contents - the contents page.
 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
 * The front page lead articles often need updating
 * Developing stories need finishing and publishing
 * Discussions need your input
 * Audio Wikinews could always use more contributors
 * And of course, stories need writing!

title: User talk:69.162.17.100


text:
Wikinews:Mirrors and forks

fr:Wikinews:Miroirs et reprises

This is an alphabetical listing of all Mirrors and Forks of wikinews and if they follow the cc-by license.

To report a mirror use the following template:

title: Wikinews:Mirrors and forks


text:
Template:Mirror

Important URIs

 * Main page:

License compliance

 * Credited to Wikinews:
 * Mentions CC-BY and/or copyright notices:
 * Other notes about License Compliance:

Pages Mirrored

 * Types mirrored:

Asthetics and formatting

 * It looks:

Misc. notes about 's Mirroring

 * Other notes about mirror:

Other general notes about

 * General notes:

title: Template:Mirror


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New York Times reporter Judith Miller breaks silence on Plame leak investigation

October 17, 2005

New York Times reporter Judith Miller broke her media silence by writing a column the newspaper published on Sunday. Her lengthy story recounted two testimonies, September 30 and October 12, she gave to a U.S. federal grand jury seeking information on the source of the Valerie Plame leak. The column described the testimony as one that relied heavily on her reporting notes given to special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald between her first and second appearances.

By her account, after the two years that had passed from the outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame and the sketchy recollections she was able to re-create from her notes, she testified that she could not recall why, when, or where the name "Valerie Flame" [sic] came from in her notes. Furthermore, she wrote of her testimony that she did not believe the name came from "Scooter" Libby.

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby is the chief of staff to Dick Cheney, vice-president of the United States. Libby, along with Karl Rove, are two high ranking administration insiders suspected of slipping information to the press in an effort to undermine Plame's husband Joe Wilson, the former ambassador to Niger who denied a White House claim that Iraq was trying to buy enriched uranium, a claim made by President George W. Bush to support the build up to the war in Iraq.

The mistaken spelling, Miller explained, was made in a section of her notes unrelated to the interviews with Libby. Other notes documented 3 interviews with Libby, conducted in the year 2003, that in her NYT column she wrote: June 23) ... Mr. Libby raised the subject of Mr. Wilson's wife for the first time. I wrote in my notes, inside parentheses, "Wife works in bureau?" I told Mr. Fitzgerald that I believed this was the first time I had been told that Mr. Wilson's wife might work for the C.I.A.

July 8) ... our conversation also turned to Mr. Wilson's wife. My notes contain a phrase inside parentheses: "Wife works at Winpac." ... first time I had heard that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for Winpac, I assumed that she worked as an analyst, not as an undercover operative.

July 12 (telephone) ... I might have called others about Mr. Wilson's wife. In my notebook I had written the words "Victoria Wilson" with a box around it, another apparent reference to Ms. Plame, who is also known as Valerie Wilson. I told Mr. Fitzgerald that I was not sure whether Mr. Libby had used this name or whether I just made a mistake in writing it on my own. Another possibility, I said, is that I gave Mr. Libby the wrong name on purpose to see whether he would correct me and confirm her identity. These notes were written shortly before the Robert Novak story on July 14 was published, revealing Valerie Plame, and after which the controversy was ignited. Asked by prosecutor Fitzgerald how she felt about the Novak story, she wrote that she was "annoyed at having been beaten on a story."

Before she agreed to testify, and thereby be released jail, she sought from Libby his personal assurance that his pre-existing waiver of confidentiality was not forced upon him by outside pressure. She also sought an agreement from Fitzgerald that grand jury questioning would be restricted in scope to questions relating only directly to her interviews with Libby.

Both of these, the assurance from Libby and the limited scope by Fitzgerald, were granted; but why she thought she needed them is open to question. Critics are skeptical of what motives are driving Miller, and wonder if she has something to hide or is protecting Libby. In the absence of road blocks to testifying that she herself made, the 85 days she spent in jail would otherwise not have been imposed.

Fitzgerald had been planning to wrap up the investigation sometime this month when the grand jury term expires October 28.


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Chinese astronauts in Shenzhou VI return safely

October 17, 2005

China's Shenzhou VI touched down safely in Inner Mongolia at 4.32 am (2032 GMT) after being in space for five days. The two astronauts were healthy and the mission was considered successful by Mission Control.

The Shenzhou VI orbited the Earth 76 times during the mission.

Fei Junlong and Nie Haisheng, the astronauts aboard the flight, were watched by Chinese around the country on national television. The Shenzhou VI is China's second manned space mission.

Hundreds of residents in Nie's hometown in northern Hebei province showed their pride by celebrating the successful mission with dragon dances and firecrackers.

The mission was conducted "entirely for peaceful purposes", President Wen Jiabao said to allay concerns that China's military might be using space for other matters.

Yang Liwei was the first Chinese in space and orbited the Earth in the Shenzhou V 14 times in 2003.

The space program is hoped to instill patriotism and cultivate a love for science and technology in the next generation of Chinese.

"Today, an independent, self-sufficient, constantly strengthening China has, like a miracle, become one of a handful of countries able to make the dream of spaceflight a reality," said the Xinhua state news agency. China is the third country to put people into space, after the former Soviet Union and the USA.


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Australian "terror laws" face backlash

October 19, 2005 One day after Jon Stanhope, the Australian Capital Territory Chief Minister, posted a confidential draft of the proposed Australian anti-terror bill to his website, Attorney-General Philip Ruddock claims that modifications have been made. Prime Minister John Howard denies that the changes are more than "minor", and denies that the legislation is "draconian". The legislation, which will only be debated in Parliament for one day, has come under attack by members of parliament (including Senator Bob Brown), civil libertarians, Muslims' rights advocates, the Law Council of Australia and members of the community.

Advocates of the proposed legislation claim that the laws are an extension of the existing criminal code. They also claim that Australia is in danger of a terrorist attack, such as the 7 July London bombings. Others have pointed out that the London bombers were not previously known to police and would not have been impacted by this legislation.

Western Australian Opposition Leader and Member for Kalgoorlie Matt Birney said "Look, let's just remember there are lunatics running around the place blowing people up and we need to take these extraordinary measures to deal with what is no doubt an extraordinary period of time in our history".

Prime Minister Howard defended the proposed legislation. He claimed that the laws had "minor" modifications (to the "leaked" document) but they were essentially the same.

"What is going to be in that legislation is what I announced and the states agreed to – no more, no less," Mr Howard told the Nine Network.

"I announced that we were going to have preventative detention, I announced that we were going to have control orders, I announced that we would be expanding the sedition offence to include incitement of violent behaviour against the community."

"All of those things have been out in the public domain.

"Now obviously people are entitled to have a look at the final form of the legislation and they will, but this idea that we have snuck in a whole lot of attacks on civil liberties beyond what I announced is completely wrong."

"We are not trying to sneak anything through under the cover of the COAG agreement."

"Given the circumstances in which we live, they're not draconian. They are unusual but we live in unusual circumstances."

Waleed Kadous of the Australian Muslim Civil Rights Advocacy Network spoke against the proposed laws. He expressed concern that the proposed "shoot to kill" laws were too permissive, and could allow an innocent suspect to be such. He said that the "devil is in the detail and there are plenty of devils in this legislation".

"Frankly we are disappointed, because while the Prime Minister said there would be lots of safeguards, there don't appear to be that many."

"We are concerned police can shoot to kill without a crime being committed and that you can be held in preventative detention for 24 hours before you even see a judge."

Even a former Liberal prime minister has used a major speech in Melbourne to outline his concerns about the legislation.

Mr Malcom Fraser says it provides no real safeguards to protect rights.

Mr Fraser says these laws do not belong in a democracy, and is particularly concerned about control orders.

"These are powers whose breadth and arbitrary nature, with a lack of judicial oversight, should not exist in any democratic country," he said.

Mr Fraser insists there is not enough protection.

"There are no real safeguards, there is no adequate official review," he said.

"The law should be opposed because the process itself is seriously flawed.

"Instead of a wide-ranging discussion, the Government has sought to nobble the field in secret and to prevent debate."

Liberal backbencher Petro Georgiou has expressed reservations about the package, calling for an independent watchdog to monitor the new powers.

Three international law experts have also criticised the proposed laws.

title: Australian "terror laws" face backlash


text: Template:Japan/Lead article

title: Template:Japan/Lead article


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Chicago White Sox win 2005 American League baseball pennant

October 17, 2005 Sunday night, the Chicago White Sox, a professional baseball team in North America, won the 2005 American League Pennant by defeating the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim by a score of 6-3 to achieve their 4th win in the American League Championship Series.

The final series of the baseball season will be the ultimate North American baseball championship, the World Series, a best of 7-game match-up between the winners of the American League and National League.