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Wikinews:Water cooler/policy/archives/2010/November

Civility, retirements and drama: Let's stop it now
We've got several discussions about this in the past few weeks/months, but we have to urgently do something about it. These discussions have been shamelessly ignored. There are several incivility claims about certain user, we've lost many trusted users and administrators of Wikinews in a short period of time, requests for desysop and decheckuser, and all the drama that has followed this, have created an atmosphere in which it is difficult to work. Policies to make Wikinews a better place are urgently needed to be done, or expand/update the older ones to our current situation.

No ban is required for those who have done the worst part of this, but all of this needs to be clarified, improved and forgotten. --Diego Grez return fire 23:56, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

 * What I think we need is set policy. That's why we haven't had anything work yet, in my opinion. We need to make a policy. red  - thunder  .  00:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

 * To be clear, I'm in favor of having a constructive discussion about this. I have a caveat to make, because there's a potential hazard in the discussion that I think we need to be wary of from the start; and I've a smallish tangle of general thoughts to offer on possible strategy toward addressing the problem.  (I won't try to comment on tactics yet, as it seems premature.)

 * One of the two top reasons we have trouble working out what to do about the problem (the other being the peculiarity of our task, of course) is that, whenever we try to discuss it, the discussion itself degenerates into acrimony, bitterness, and, of late, further retirements. In fact, the last time I tried, inarticulately, to express this very thought, I fear it may have contributed to another retirement (in a one-of-the-last-straws sort of way).  So if we're going to have a constructive discussion, we need to be quite coldly objective, especially when discussing specifics of others' —or our own— behavior.  It's a microcosm of the very problem we need to solve:  how can we talk about what people are doing wrong without fearing that we will be accused of making personal attacks?  The discussion needs to be able to take everything into account, just as news work does.  In a major go around on this topic, someone wrote a list of behavioral faults of those who had recently retired; you can imagine how well that went over.  But that can't be off limits if we're going to have any hope of getting somewhere.

 * That caveat may itself be a clue to what we need: a viable solution for Wikinews has to protect open discussion of things, as an integral part of its function.  Some things genuinely should not be said, but most things we need to be, and feel, free to say — and for those things, the lines we don't want crossed have to do with how we say them.  That how doesn't even involve the vocabulary set.  Perhaps the single rudest thing I recall having ever said on Wikinews was expressing a potentially valid point, and doing so without using any objectionable words.  (I did later apologize for it.)  Furthermore, when those lines do get crossed, the measures we recommend taking should be designed not to prevent, nor in future discourage, frank discussion.  We want to encourage frank discussion.  Figuring out how to de-escalate an overheating discussion without discouraging frankness may, in fact, be the most difficult part of all this, and the key to making it work.
 * How do we go about conducting frank discussions without overheating?
 * How do we deal with problems in such discussions without discouraging frankness?
 * --Pi zero (talk) 16:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Pi zero once more demonstrates why I nominated (him?) for Arbcom by expressing things I'm thinking far better than I could. This is why I've largely 'ignored' the debates - I have been watching them closely, but these are questions I don't have the answers to. I simply had nothing worth contributing, and will likely have little until I see some way forward addressing those points. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 18:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Short Answer: Appoint me as Governor-General.

Longer Answer: It feels at times that when an issue arises, the first response of the "higher-ups" is to put up a wall of objection. This alone causes frustration, especially when it appears that those who object are faceless-positionless-warrentless-inflexible elites of the site that have one vision and one vision alone. Here's the solution: 1. Establish a moredefined face-of-the-organisation through which things can work and 2. Instead of objecting, how about we "work through to a solution". BKCW8''' talk  09:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't think centralization would help with this problem; I don't think it addresses the pair of questions I presented above.

 * My ulterior motive for posting this comment now is to reset the clock on this thread. I prefer to assume that the current inactivity here is a thoughtful one (it certainly is on my part), and I mean to keep the thread open, awaiting further post-worthy developments.  --Pi zero (talk) 01:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I greatly appreciate the lengths Pi Zero has gone to to avoid naming me. ;-) But, those who've been on-project a while know I'm not just a 'fire breathing dragon' when it comes to naive contributors. I will, equally fiercely, defend those working here constructively. I don't have time for the Kafkaesque 'niceness' seen on Wikipedia; nor, frankly, should anyone else. I'm disturbed to be told "all the Wikipedians are scared of you". If they genuinely want to contribute here, I will bend over backwards to help those that can write well do so. In other news, moving here from Wikipedia will always be a culture shock. --Brian McNeil / talk 01:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia doesn't single out niceness for special treatment; by Wikinews standards, everything is Kafkaesque over there. The level of complexity there serves as a collective memory for the complexities that have actually occurred in such a vast and sprawling community — and it's not appropriate here.  The specific shape of the contributor-interaction control mechanism is also inappropriate here (even if simplified).  We need to find our own way, differently shaped and simple.  Note that "different from the Wikinews status quo" does not imply either Kafkaesque or Wikipedian.  --Pi zero (talk) 08:15, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I've almost got a thought ready to post here, but in case it takes another few days, here's a clock reset. --Pi zero (talk) 09:24, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Precautionary clock reset. --Pi zero (talk) 12:07, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Clock reset. --Pi zero (talk) 22:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion A
I figured it would be easier to keep track of potential solutions to this problem if we divided them up into sections.

My thoughts are that instead of creating specific rules and regulations about what can and cannot be said (there are simply too many possibilities to list), we should instead make and enforce a general rule involving the expectation of maturity among Wikinews users. People have said that that's too vague, but any specific ruleset has the problem of being too defined. If we post a specific ruleset then I assure you the same thing that happens on Wikipedia will happen here: people manoeuvrer very carefully around the rules, making sure to never explicitly violate them, while at the same time being cruel and sadistic. Strat Planning came to the conclusion that many female editors on Wikipedia feel that they are under *constant* harassment, despite the many rules in place that are suppose to prevent this. I don't think there is any difference between being bludgeoned to death with a hammer (what happens to users on Wikinews), and being tortured with Death By 1000 Needle Pricks (what happens to users on Wikipedia). In the end both systems (vague ruleset verses specific ruleset) are flawed, and we're just picking whatever evil happens to feel less horrible at the current moment.

So how about a compromise solution? We'll have a page that lists a few things that are obviously de-admin worthy, and say "note that this is not a complete list. Other infractions will be dealt with by the community at large as they occur". I'd also like to press the point that the page should spend most of its time hammering home the point that the primary expectations of the community for admins are honesty and maturity. Gopher65talk 00:49, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

 * (Sorry this is going to ramble a bit.)

 * Recall the two questions I suggested early in this thread (and which have been the focal point for my off-line thoughts on this thread for the past month). A very abstract way of looking at those those two questions is that is that the first is about prevention, and the second about correction.

 * Only around the time I posted those questions, I concluded that we've been making a very natural, but unfortunate, mistake by limiting ourselves to choosing the boundaries within which users are expected to operate — and effectively assuming that we already knew the form of both prevention and correction. We have, in fact, been assuming the Wikipedian model.  To oversimplify only moderately,
 * pure correction is by blocking and, for admins, revocation of privileges;
 * pure prevention is by everyone being quietly intimidated by the implicit threat of pure correction;
 * and then there are intermediate states between those extremes, ranging from almost-pure prevention toward almost-pure correction, that consist of increasingly explicit threats of pure corrective measures.
 * Yes, that's an uncharitable way to put it, but my point is the downside of the strategy. It may actually be a poor strategy for Wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure it's a terrible strategy for Wikinews.  Remember that the concrete versions of my questions emphasized the importance of frankness.  Wikinewsies have to feel free to ruthlessly criticize reportage (I said "ruthlessly", not "rudely", but that's not my point right now).  Prevention by intimidation —when it effects behaviors that aren't actually malicious, which is most of the time— is antithetical to our mission.

 * More recently, I've come be believe that designing corrective measures has to precede both designing preventative measures and choosing the boundaries that both are used to maintain. I was nursing along a very tentative idea on prevention, which I attempted to deploy early (in desperation, I suppose) when things looked like getting out of hand at SG talk... and for a brief moment it worked, but ultimately it was sure to fail because when some of the Wikipedians felt it was time to start shading toward correction —which means increasingly explicit threat of correction— that was in direct contradiction to my feeble measures that functioned on the principle of removing intimidation.

 * It seems we have to know first the shape of our corrective measures, so that all the rest can be designed to be compatible with that.

 * As for the boundaries that prevention/correction are used to maintain, I like the general approach of avoiding over-defined rule sets. (I'm not at all sure it's possible for Wikipedia to avoid them, but fortunately we only have to solve our own incredibly-difficult-to-fathom problem; we don't have to solve theirs too.  If they can then benefit from our solution, it won't be the first time.  I hope to cover the dynamics of WP-vs-WN in another post that I've been slowly assembling for some time, but that will definitely belong in a different subsection.)  I just don't think we're nearly ready to start formulating lists of boundaries to maintain; I think we need to work out first how we're going to maintain them — the shape of our correction/prevention strategy.

 * That said, it's already beginning to occur to me, stirred up by your interesting thoughts, that there are probably different classes of suboptimal behavior, based on both intent and perception, with different kinds of preventative/corrective measures being appropriate for different classes of behavior. Yet another separate post to be written, presumably.  --Pi zero (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd have said that preventative measures should come first. After reading your ramble I agree with your statement that behavioural boundaries (even if only loosely defined) — and the punitive measures that would be taken if those boundaries were crossed — should come first. The stipulation being, of course, that preventative measures be swiftly implemented after the set of corrective measures has been set in motion. As can be seen from multiple examples in real life, punitive measures don't work in a vacuum. But (thinking about it now), preventative measures will also fail unless we draw a "line in the sand" in the form of punitive measures that encourage people to attempt preventative measures, or risk punishment. Gopher65talk 04:58, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Touching on your last point (different types of bad behaviour), I think you're correct.

 * Recently a multi-wiki troll was banned and de-admined on many projects. This troll had acquired admin and/or bureaucrat status on a significant number of wikis. Their plan was to act "nice" in order to gain maximum privileges. Their end goal wasn't apparent; guesses ranged from "sociological experiment into fooling a community" to "mass vandal preparing to strike".

 * Compare the above troll to, say, Brianmc or me, who care about the project, but occasionally take out our real-world frustrations on other editors who don't deserve the abuse. Either set of actions (lying to acquire admin privileges, and engaging in childish behaviour), would likely be sufficient to warrant some form of punitive action under any reasonable proposed corrective ruleset, but my feeling is that the punishment involved probably wouldn't be the same. Also, one type of behaviour could potentially be helped through preventative measures, while the other would not. Gopher65talk 05:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I prefer terminology "corrective" to "punitive", "correction" to "punishment". Sometimes one is correcting the transgressor, sometimes correcting the project by eliminating a source of harm; but if one isn't doing either, then the action probably isn't appropriate.

 * These three elements —prevention, correction, boundaries— are subsystems of a single machine. The whole won't function without all three, and each of them has to be designed in coordination with the others; but at any particular stage in designing the machine, there may be a particular aspect of a particular subsystem that especially needs to be determined next.  My sense is that the means of correction are currently the most underdetermined and needed aspect of the design.  We've got corrective measures that lend themselves to prevention by intimidation, which is the wrong kind of prevention for many kinds of problems.  Re boundaries, it seems that for each kind of correction there would be a different boundary, so that detailed boundaries are logically dependent on the forms of correction available.  One might even place the boundaries for one kind of corrective action differently because of the existence of another kind of corrective action.

 * I don't know specifically what's wanted in the correction department, other than fresh ideas. I'm studying various aspects of what goes wrong, and hoping insight into the nature of things we want to prevent/correct may catalyze ideas about how to address them.  Actual means of correction elude me, and I'm quite open to brainstorming.  (Some brainstorming a few weeks ago led me to this.)  --Pi zero (talk) 14:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Refactor required
OMIT NEEDLESS WORDS!

The above may have taken much thought, but is too long; to the extent of being undigestible.

You know this is not Wikipedia. Everyone knows this is a well intentioned attempt to progress issues, but it can - 'uncharitably' - be described as waffle.

Three sentences per point, or proposal, no more than four short bullet point on each. And, then there is a basis for discussion. Take the internal monologue to your userspace, and take the flag off it here. --Brian McNeil / talk 08:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * REITERATE NEED FOR RUTHLESS COPYEDIT!
 * Please stop sticking in a 'clock reset' on this overly-verbose discussion when nobody is taking any interest in it. I will summarily archive it if this is repeated without a sincere effort to slash the excess verbiage. Copy the above "thinking-aloud" to your usespace, and think long and hard about how to trim this to a maximum of three, brief, sentences per point. I do appreciate what you're trying to do Pi Zero, but you're drowning people in words and not offering points to kick off discussion or move to decisions. --Brian McNeil / talk 14:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll respond when I get a chance. Hopefully later today.  --Pi zero (talk) 15:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I know you care about this issue. I know it is complex. But, it needs a brief 'brief', not a dissertation. --Brian McNeil / talk 17:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The simplest form of refactoring that I would have no problem with —I'd consider it an improvement— would take each logical segment of the discussion, package it up neatly in a subsection, write a summary of each major point, and bury the details in a collapsed box. For the sake of lesser access devices, the summary could be in a subsubsection isolated from the hidden details. (If collapsed boxes need to be avoided entirely, a slightly less graceful arrangement can be devised...)

Would that satisfy you?

Regarding the rest of the content of your above posts, beyond your IMO valid concerns about verbosity/refactoring, consider: This thread has worked at being a tolerant and non-threatening place to discuss bad behaviors of a sort that you are notorious for. You came here, berated people's contributions, and threatened to unilaterally kill the discussion. --Pi zero (talk) 13:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Hearing no objection, I will refactor the section in the next day or two. Meanwhile, here are two general observations concerning my practice of resetting the clock on this thread.
 * There is a false appearance of apathy about this problem. Its falseness was established early in this discussion, which I believe makes it reasonable to keep it open.  The appearance is corrosive, which I believe makes it important to keep it open.
 * I postpone fresh comments here if, at the particular moment, I feel that the community's immediate attention should be directed elsewhere. Thus, the slow pace of evolution is meant to benefit the community.
 * I look forward to ruthlessly "refactoring" this subsection, as I consider most of it unproductive and needlessly heated meta-talk. --Pi zero (talk) 14:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I despair of any progress on this; once again, you output volumous verbiage. Cut to the chase. Nobody reads such lengthy discussions. "Hiding" sections is pointless. My original point stands: Sum it up, maximum three sentences per point, define your terms instead of inventing vague ones, and choose the accusations you decide to make far more carefully. --Brian McNeil / talk 16:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Clarification required
Brian McNeil, please explain what you want. You have twice described succinct comments, but I don't know how you want them to relate to the disposition of this thread. The most plausible guess I had, you seem to indicate was entirely wrong. Please explain. --Pi zero (talk) 23:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

--InfantGorilla (talk) 06:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The accusations on both sides are accurate, in my opinion.
 * 1) Several comments are unclear: shorter or clearer ones may generate more valuable responses.
 * 2) Comments appear to berate contributions and threaten a guillotine. Please don't.
 * It would be ok by me to archive the thing and pick up the thread where we left off when new ideas or shorter comments are ready.

Plagiarism
We should, and to my knowledge don't, have basic practical advice on avoiding synthesis-copyvio, placed somewhere prominent so that it will be found early by newcomers.

For example, I long since picked up, by premeditated osmosis here, that copying sentence by sentence while changing a few words is a copyvio. I'd think that scrambling the order of such sentences would still be a copyvio, and copying the ordering of ideas from a source too closely would be problematic... but I'm really not an expert on heuristics for determining such things, and I'm pretty sure that a bunch of Wikinewsises are — yet, if this sort of thing is covered anywhere permanent on our site, it's not prominently enough placed for me to know about it.

I've lately gotten an impression of gossip on Wikipedia saying, more or less, that sentence-by-sentence word-replacement paraphrase is what Wikinews is all about. What should matter to us about that is that a significant pool of our potential contributors may arrive here with a pernicious misconception already in place. For which the antidote is to say this stuff where it will be seen.

--Pi zero (talk) 13:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there in fact nothing about this written down in a place on the site where it will be readily noticed?
 * What simple basic advice should we be giving?
 * Where should we give it?
 * The general rule (or at least how it works at my school) is plagiarism happens when you have three or more words in a row that are exactly the same as a source. (or if you don't attribute your source). I think thats a good rule to follow here. As it stands much of our articles are way too close to the source. Furthermore, articles should avoid being word for word replacements, because thats kind of useless (might as well read the source). They should have some value added, usually in the form of combining information (or viewpoints) not currently available in a single article. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, the signpost ran an excellent article on plagiarism a while back. Bawolff ☺☻ 00:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Two edits worth discussion here: Newcomers deserve to have Brian's short essay made available to them somehow.

So many apparently well meaning new contributors come unstuck in this area that I wish there would be a way of educating folks as soon as they get here. I can't for the moment see what it is. However, by the time it comes to one-on-one assistance, both the newcomer and the reviewer are often out of energy.

--InfantGorilla (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * IG, you've quite a knack for 'data mining'. That 'little essay' was aimed at exactly what this thread is complaining about. Latest example: Obama lands in New Delhi. Perhaps we actually need a plagiarism guideline, expounding somewhat on my, sadly reverted, addition to the nothanks template? --Brian McNeil / talk 18:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum: We've covered this issue (or, at least, I have). The following will probably amuse IG no end, but it forms an excellent base for either a plagiarism cautionary template, or - perhaps better - a Plagiarism guideline:

Counsel for the prosecution of plagiarists rests m'lud.

A draft guideline to follow... --Brian McNeil / talk 19:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Plagiarism
This is now a blue link. Yes, I enjoyed a couple of glasses of alcohol, and have probably been hideously overly verbose. But, I think we need to strike a balance between stern reprimand, dull-as-ditchwater policy, and (I think important) a humorous challenge to improve people's writing.

Please don't edit this "mercilessly" without considering the time, and context within which it's been written. I'll take my 'drubbing' in the form of - hopefully - constructive criticism on the corresponding talk page. Where is it overly verbose? What are the near-universal jibes at modern, mainstream, media? What points does it miss? Why would someone not read to the end?

All valid points for all policies and guidelines. You want people to read the whole thig; you also don't want it to seem a chore if pointed at something again.

It's a thought that only recently struck me, but our policies need read, and re-read. How can that be made more enjoyable than a homework essay? I don't have a clear answer, but 'in jokes' form a part of it. As does a visible passion, even on the dryest of subjects.

So, if you hate this, don't offer me a blindfold; I'll face the firing squad with the most expensive Cuban cigar you can lay your hands on. ;-) --Brian McNeil / talk 20:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * /me likes. However I think the lines: "Can you afford a million-dollar lawsuit? It won't be the Wikimedia Foundation they're after. Just Little. Old. You. The one who copied what they shouldn't." and "Never, ever commit the sins of plagiarism or copyright violation. As part of the new forth estate, Wikinews must remain beyond reproach." might be a bit too strong. Bawolff ☺☻ 01:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

 * My comment is on the talk page. --Pi zero (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Behavioral strategy
In our search for a workable strategy to keep our contributor–contributor interactions on an even keel, I suggest the following two questions. I'll describe below one possible approach for each question. --Pi zero (talk) 01:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What principles/advice should we be trying to follow, that will help us to keep things from getting overheated?
 * When things do start to overheat, what measures should we take to bring the situation back under control?

Encourage, and be courteous
Say please and thankyou. Say good things when people do well. Give helpful, positive advice on how to do better when explaining to them what they did wrong. Don't assume that a misunderstanding, or seeming offense, is deliberate — skepticism should prevent you from assuming bad faith. Although swear words are not necessarily objectionable in discussions on Wikinews, they should not be used in a way that might be taken as directed at another contributor.

We ought to be able to put together a succinct how-to guide on this. Perhaps we should try to write that first, and only then worry about how it should relate to the existing WN:Etiquette guideline (which needs overhauling). --Pi zero (talk) 01:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Intercession
In horse operas, there are two ways to stop those two guys fist-fighting in the street. Either fire your rifle into the air (but the analog here would be explicit threat of blocking, and threats don't produce a positive working environment). Or douse the combatants with a bucketful of water from the horse trough.

Can we devise a suitable analog to a bucketful of water from the horse trough? Or, perhaps, some somewhat more flexible/articulate form of brining-to-heel intercession? --Pi zero (talk) 01:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I get the point. But, am struggling to find an online equivalent to your bucket of water. As you know, the biggest problem is what you write can all too easily be misconstued in the absence of all the face to face visual cues. --Brian McNeil / talk 10:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Very true. Suppose there were a template one could interject into a thread, generating a little icon with a standard message after it, and a link from the message to some expanded form of its recommendation.
 * The template should be something that (a) participants in a dust-up would never use, and  (b) won't cause whoever uses it to be drawn into the situation.  Probably, a canned message (for (b)) that actually says it's from an uninvolved party (for (a)).
 * Choosing the right metaphor/icon and message is key. Will just one do for all situations, or are there two or more classes of situations calling for different messages/icons?  To look for broad patterns, I've started a folder of minor dust-ups.
 * --Pi zero (talk) 16:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

A possible intervention model

 * What you're trying to do is enforce a synaptic pause, a moment in which the participants' single-minded drive to [prove their point(s)/disprove their opponent's(s') point(s)/insult and abuse/disrupt the community for fun or profit] is suspended, hopefully long enough for them to step back and consider how important the discussion is to the Wikinews community and mission.
 * Consider a show/hide template added to the top and bottom of the section (hopefully via a nice, ez-style javascript which adds a one-click button next to the section edit link) which will require a click to view the conversation but display a template which says it was added by a non-involved party who thinks the conversation is too heated. This requires the participants to do more just to see the conversation, and do more to make the conversation visible to everyone (remove the top and bottom template bits) as well as generally complexifying continuing the conversation.
 * Any intervention technique can, by its nature, be abused. This one is a reasonably mild intervention which slows down responses, which is its entire goal. As a secondary benefit, it removes some of the perceived rewards for posting witty or cutting remarks as those remarks will not be readily visible to the community unless the templates are removed (which removal can easily be reinstated by any other community member. iow: this is an extension of the wiki anti-vandal model of making it more difficult to be disruptive and easier to reverse that disruption.) -  Amgine | t 03:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Lots of uncharted (AFAIK) territory around that idea.
 * As in your description, some explanation/appeal is needed. When they pause, we've one shot at getting a short, simple message through.  In the sorts of cases I've studied, often both parties would say, on reflection, that they are pursuing the good of the WN community — but an unabstract, impersonal admonition to stick to technical issues might help.  Alas, that wouldn't help with a variety of situations where technical/policy issues are central.
 * Making the discussion text entirely disappear may be more antagonizing than stunning (even more so if the exchange is taking place in user talk space). Is it technically feasible, rather than hiding the text entirely, to make it too small to read?  That might also support a metaphor of "taking a step back".
 * --Pi zero (talk) 10:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What about disemvowelling? — μ 13:19, November 27 2010 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is popups. Everyone hates popups, so they may have the desired effect. Everyone hates popups, so they'll prolly just get everyone more pissed. That's the inherent problem with all of these - will the extra effort just annoy people? Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 13:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If the text-shrinking thing could be made to work (I foresee a snag with images not shrinking), the principals might be reassured thereby that nothing has been destroyed.
 * The annoyance factor can also be mitigated by a really lucid message, and by the whole thing coming across as an impersonal, officially prescribed measure (rather than personal interference).
 * BTW (just in case there weren't enough hurdles to clear), this should be arranged so it doesn't require that javascript be turned on. --Pi zero (talk) 15:32, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Such a thing should be possible using pure css (including images. I think anyways). (a person could just turn off CSS if they wanted to though. A person could just read the conversation in the edit box as well). Alternative approach is to just make everything blink . Bawolff ☺☻ 22:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, but blink doesn't work for me and never has. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 22:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Stupid IE users. That can be rectified with JS. Bawolff ☺☻ 23:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What about spoiler tags? Look! It fits into the Vector theme. — μ 22:57, November 27 2010 (UTC)
 * So far I like the de-vowel option the best. But to do it so its reversible would require js (The point of this is to enforce cool-down period right? not permanent abandonment of the conversation?). Bawolff ☺☻ 23:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I like Microchip's spoiler box thing. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 23:22, 27 November 2010 (UTC)


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text:
Thread:Comments:Pennsylvania father kills two daughters, wife, then commits suicide/Results of the recession/reply

I agree. THANKS A LOT OBAMA. 24.159.24.36 (talk) 22:49, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


text: User talk:Franjalo

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text:
Thread:Comments:Pentagon unable to explain 'mystery missile' video/Comments from feedback form - "misleading, sensationalistic h..."/reply (2)

Wikinews should be ashamed all right.... that they don't mention the possibility that Obama is sending rockets to tell malevolent alien empires where Earth is. If he can't rule us, he wishes us exterminated. Just a theory at this point, but the most logical interpretation of everything he's done so far. 24.159.24.36 (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


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IT IS INTRESTING


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POOR PEOPLE ,HOPE IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN


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stupids why cant they shove more into this


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Thread:Comments:Seven dead, twenty injured in Mexican resort explosion/Comments from feedback form - "for some reason i doubt this w..."

for some reason i doubt this was a "natural" occurrence...


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Talk:At least 53 killed, over 90 injured in Shanghai apartment fire

If this seems close to the Wikipedia article ...
That's because I wrote most of it, and I wrote all the stuff that I copied from there. I hereby release every edit I have made to 2010 Shanghai fire as of 04:25, 16 November 2010 (UTC) into the public domain. Thanks,  — fetch · comms  04:25, 16 November 2010 (UTC)


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text: Comments:At least 53 killed, over 90 injured in Shanghai apartment fire


text: User talk:Conrad.Powers

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text:
Thread:Comments:Seven dead, twenty injured in Mexican resort explosion/Comments from feedback form - "for some reason i doubt this w..."/reply

Whether it is or not, I'm not sure it will matter. There have been a string of highly publicized deaths of Canadians in Mexico for the past several years. Based on what I've heard so far, people in Canada are starting to reach the tipping point of seeing Mexico as a place that is too dangerous to visit. I foresee a flood of tourists visiting the Cayman Islands and Trinidad and Tobago, with a corresponding drop in trips to Mexico from Canada.


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User talk:Rit1

Our submission guidelines
I'd like to let you know that here at the English Wikinews, we only accept English language news. You've recently made contributions that don't qualify as news. We appreciate your contributions, but we cannot accept the edits you've made, so they have been reverted or deleted.

In the future, if you'd like to submit news, we are more than happy to have your help! Just make sure to check out this article, which talks about what Wikinews is not.

Thank you for your contributions! Gopher65talk 15:38, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

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User talk:Princessfrog~enwikinews

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Princessfrog. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Princessfrog~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Princessfrog~enwikinews


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User talk:Philthefluter~enwikinews

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Philthefluter. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Philthefluter~enwikinews that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:35, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

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text:
Comments:Over 900 people dead, 14,000 infected in Haitian cholera outbreak

Haiti's situation is just depressing. --200.29.147.34 (talk) 13:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Does anybody know what the long-term effects of Cholera are if the victim doesn't die? 64.195.2.114 (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)


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text:
'Criminal in a police uniform' given eleven years jail for role in English drugs gang

November 18, 2010 Liverpool Crown Court jailed an ex-policeman who led a double life as a senior figure in a, England drugs gang. Salim Razaq, described by his Andy Cooke of  as "nothing short of a criminal in a police uniform", received eleven-and-a-half years imprisonment on Tuesday after being caught during a 'turf war' with a rival gang.

The 33-year-old spoke to his brother over the phone while the latter was in jail on remand for kidnap and assault. Hafiz 'The Enforcer' 'Big Haf' Razaq was involved in hijacking Mohammed Begg's BMW and abducting him. Begg, linked to the Fishwick gang, was tortured and beaten for three hours by Hafiz and other Deepdale gang members. Salim and Hafiz discussed money laundering and plans to intimidate witnesses in Hafiz's trial. Other officers bugged the calls, their suspicions aroused when Salim improperly used the force computer system to check on family members and associates.

Lancashire Police's Professional Standards Department then raided Salim's home in, near Preston, and found 72,000 in laundered cash hidden in the police sergeant's bedroom. Three machine guns — two and a  — were concealed under the stairs. 228 bullets, a bullet-proof jacket, a balaclava, and a knuckle-duster were also confiscated.

Last month he entered guilty pleas to two counts of, three counts of possession of a firearm, possession of ammunition, conspiracy to transfer criminal property, conspiracy to acquire or retain criminal property and. The conspiracies referred to ; the misconduct was for abusing the police database.

Salim joined the police in 2001 and served as a traffic cop patrolling motorways, before his promotion to sergeant in January last year. He was dismissed in June when the force convened a Special Case Hearing to fast-track the process.

Salim and Hafiz's mother Gulshan admitted perverting the course of justice; her role was to intimidate witnesses. Hafiz entered guilty pleas to money laundering and two counts of perverting the course of justice. Two more gang members — Jason Lawrenson and Daniel Cookson — admitted money laundering, and another man, Louis Bamber, admitted possession of a firearm.

Gulshan was given a 44-week sentence suspended for two years and Hafiz received three-and-a-half years, this in addition to a six-year sentence for the attack on Begg. It was this attack that initiated the war, with a Deepdale member being shot in the throat in retaliation.

In sentencing Salim Judge Henry Globe QC said "The offending took place over an extended period of time. It amounts to a breach of trust, a dereliction of duty and it amounts to extremely serious and persistent criminal offending whilst ostensibly, supposedly upholding criminal justice in your capacity as a serving police officer. Your actions have brought potential discredit to the police force. It would have made the tasks of other officers more difficult. In particular, I make reference to the gravity of your offending in relation to the firearms offences.

"It cannot be exaggerated that the guns you knowingly had in your possession were three sub machine guns with many rounds of live ammunition to be used with them. There was no conceivable, lawful or justifiable purpose that anyone could have had to have them in their possession."


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title: User talk:Daveyterror


text:
Vettel becomes youngest Formula One champion

November 18, 2010

Under the in 's floodlights, German driver  added a new Formula One record to his list as youngest winner of the championship at 23 years. On Saturday, Vettel took the title at of.

Starting from pole position, the driver led the race right through except during pit stops, when reigning world champion  led for a few laps. Championship leader started the race 11 points ahead of. With 25 points for a win, 18 for second and 15 for third, the Spaniard only needed to finish second to secure his third world championship. With a 15-point lag behind Alonso, Sebastian Vettel was third in the championship standings; winning the championship depended on neither Alonso nor Webber finishing on the podium.

A major accident between and  on the first lap of the race triggered deployment of the. Alonso and Webber were among drivers who decided to make earlier than planned pit stops while racing was resricted. However, they rejoined the track behind the of, who proved extremely difficult to overtake. Both remained stuck behind Petrov for the remainder of the race, finishing 7th and 8th respectively to score 6 and 4 points.

Sebastian Vettel went on to win the race ahead of the two of  and, scoring 25 championship points to give a total of 256 - only 4 ahead of Alonso.

Vettel had never previously led this year's contest. He had to wait until championship favorites Alonso and Webber crossed the finish line in 7th and 8th positions respectively before receiving the news by team radio. With his voice breaking among tears and laughter, Vettel thanked his team for their efforts throughout the season. He won five races from ten pole positions.

Since the start of his F1 career, Vettel’s name has repeatedly entered record books.

In 2007, he replaced an injured in the. Finishing 8th and collecting one championship point; this his first record was youngest driver to score a point in F1.

In 2008, Vettel had the opportunity to race for a full season with, winning what remains that team's only race victory. At the, he became the youngest driver to qualify in pole position and youngest race winner.

In 2009, he moved to, scoring that team’s first pole position and first race victory. He went on to finish second in the world championship.


text:
Talk:'Criminal in a police uniform' given eleven years jail for role in English drugs gang

As you might expect, some details are sourced from the old article and indeed some text is lifted directly from it. Blood Red Sandman (Talk)   (Contribs) 21:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Review of revision 1130585 [Failed]

 * From the Guardian: "Razaq had joined the Lancashire force nine years ago, becoming a sergeant after serving as a traffic officer in the motorway patrol." I also consider the lines "...to obtain information about his family and acquaintances. Officers became suspicious and..." to back that one up. Let me reword the hijacking.  Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 07:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree with Pi zero about the interpretation of Salim's bio. It is likely, from what little I know of police careers, that Salim was first a cadet then some kind of beat officer before joining traffic division / Motorway Unit.  The Guardian sentence isn't conclusive one way or the other, and the early part of his career (before traffic and sergeant) is unimportant to the story. I reworded. --InfantGorilla (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


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title: User talk:Ampulsory


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text:
Talk:NASCAR: Edwards wins 2010 Kobalt Tools 500

Review of revision 1130030 [Passed]
Clueless to the last, I'm still scratching my head over this sentence:
 * This is the closest that the top three in points have been since the Chase format was introduced.

Now, one of the sources has in its title "tightest Chase ever", but I'm still not seeing anything in that source that explains what "tightest" means. What am I missing? --Pi zero (talk) 22:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It means closest in America, such as tight, the protons in an atom were very tight, (close). I am 100.99% it means close, or thats what Nascar.com meant because it is, 46 points seperate the top three!  Nascar 1996   23:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But how do we know it's the top three that are the closest ever, rather than, say (as an obvious alternative), the top two? --Pi zero (talk) 00:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Both are.  Nascar 1996   00:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I was wondering how we know that. --Pi zero (talk) 00:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I know pretty much anything about NASCAR, if you want to know something, just ask.  Nascar 1996   00:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I rather imagine you do :-). But that is not what I mean.  I'm wondering whether that information can be extracted from the declared sources, and if so, from where in them.  --Pi zero (talk) 01:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you think tight means?  Nascar 1996   03:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 * It is an imprecise term, and ambiguous in this context. The sentence I'm asking about asserts something precise and unambiguous.  So that single word is not in itself verification of the elaborate content of that sentence.  If the statement is unsourced, we need to either source it (one way or another), or —unpalatably— remove it.  --Pi zero (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Pi zero's original comment on Nascar's user talk page was that xe couldn't verify only a few specific things. I've carried forward xe's verification and concentrated on the remaining elements. Therefore, while I have done a few checks outside of those, I have largely not rigoroisly duplicated the effort Pi had already put in. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 07:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I see. And on that user talk page, in my list of things I was having trouble verifying, I said I was "really lost" in regard to the championships, rather than being more specific (ah, 20/20 hindsight).  In fact, this sentence was one of the things about the championships I was having trouble with.  Nascar subsequently added further sources and suggested to me that we try again, which I did when I was next on-wiki; this sentence was the only passage I still couldn't verify, if not for which I might have published a few minutes ahead of when BRS did.  In the long run, perhaps a useful case study in the challenges of multi-reviewer collaboration.

 * Meanwhile, though, we need to figure out what to do with this passage, while we're still within 24 hours after publication. --Pi zero (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 * An obvious measure is to —perhaps temporarily— make the statement slightly gentler, so that it's clearly within the sources, and then if we can arrange something more within the 24-hour horizon, all the better. --Pi zero (talk) 13:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Sighted. I feel we've lost very little with that edit (if I'd had more time this morning I was thinking along the lines '...making this the closest...' which is pretty similar). Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 17:43, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


text: Comments:NASCAR: Edwards wins 2010 Kobalt Tools 500


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Talk:Vettel becomes youngest Formula One champion

Review of revision 1130590 [Failed]
At least some of the other information may be in the raft of interlinked articles in The Telegraph, which the author seems to have treated as a "single" source. The 135 day figure is in "Sebastian Vettel factfile" — but unfortunately that page also says his birthday is July 3, which by my arithmetic is 133 days before November 13, rather than 135. I don't know exactly what to look for in the way of "pre-race points" (and when I tried, I thought I found something contradicting the WN article, but wasn't sure...). --Pi zero (talk) 13:45, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I went investigating. To the right of the main text in the Torygraph, hidden amongst the ads, there is a scrolling table of the final race points. This article mentions how many they won this race; you imply above you can verify those figures, so a bit of math can verify the pre-race numbers. The table gives the final points after this race as: 256 for Vettel, 252 for Alonso, 242 for Webber and 240 for Hamilton. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes Blood Red Sandman, I didn't see all of that, but still the article does not have a source the pre standings prior to the race, unless youe expect the viewers to subtract the 25 from the totoal to get pre-race? Can you do this? I wasn't sure. I though you couldn't, though. Nascar 1996   20:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The key point is to verify it, and allow people to see how we did that. After all, most people will not double-check our facts; displaying the sources is really a transparency thing. The idea is people can see where it came from, rather than that they should themselves verify the whole piece. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If your're saying it can be published anyways, readd it and I'll publish it. Also, why isn't any of my articles added to the main page?  Nascar 1996   20:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I am, assuming you actually check the numbers against the source. As for adding articles to the main page, feel free to use WN:ML to do it yourself. (All articles appear on the Main Page, but not all are guaranteed to go on a lead). I tend to place sport on leads 3, 4 or 5 (on rare occasions when I actually edit the leads), but it's always a judgement call on what stories have been published and how long things have been there when deciding what goes on which lead. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you think that I didn't read them? I think this is interesting so I read it! So will you please add the review please?  Nascar 1996   20:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hehe, just making sure in case you thought I was saying I'd checked the maths myself. Template ✅. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I thought you was doubting that I read them.  Nascar 1996   20:52, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I added the direct link to pre-race standings as well as to the final standings from one of the sources; ESPN_F1. SputniK 79 (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The thought is appreciated, but the article was verified from the sources at the time or it wouldn't have been published. Keep in mind that the sources section is a record of how the article was verified, rather than a set of external links to "read more about it".  It's also too late to make substantive changes; that's only allowed for the first 24 hours after publication.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


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Comments:US Singer Brandy involved in fatal car crash; sued for $50 million

Comments from feedback form - "It needs more detail. Because ..."
It needs more detail. Because if you go to the Brandy Norwood Wikipedia page, it has more info there. So maybe more detail will do the trick. Thank you for your time. —24.130.232.44 (talk) 03:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


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Thread:Comments:Somali piracy: Kenyan navy kills three, Chinese ship hijacked, British couple freed/somali piracy

when will the western world get real and do something to enable them to act on piracy several hundred people are confined bilions of dollars worth of shipping held and myself [10 miles north of mombasa] a prisoner unable to sail my own boat out of the creak where i live letalone sail to dar-es-salam for a yacht race BRITTON AND THE SUPER NAVYS OF THE WEST HAVE BEEN DEFEATED HIJACKING IS SO EASY IT CAN ONLY GET WORSE


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User talk:98.148.244.27

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

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title: User talk:98.148.244.27


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User talk:Aahaskar

Spam
Hi, please do not place any kind of on our website — it will be  so no one will see it. If you do want to contribute to Wikinews, see the introduction. --Pi zero (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello,

Your recent contributions are considered to be spam and have been reverted or deleted. Should you believe that your contributions are not spam, please argue your case on your talk page, or in WN:ALERT.

Further spamming may result in your editing privileges being removed. Please contribute to Wikinews in a constructive fashion instead. --Pi zero (talk) 15:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

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London fire extinguisher throw suspect bailed

November 17, 2010 An 18-year-old UK student suspected of throwing a fire extinguisher from the roof of the headquarters of the ('Tories'), 30 Millbank, London, was arrested on Monday. He was today released on bail after a court appearance.

Edward Woollard, who is studying in Philosophy, Politics, and Classics, at  in the, attended last Wednesday's student protests in London, before following a crowd of around 200 students into the Tory HQ and making it to the building's roof, whilst the rest of the building was vandalised. Watched by thousands of students gathered outside, a fire extinguisher was thrown from the roof, giving glancing blows to two police officers on the ground 70 feet (21 metres) below. Over sixty arrests have been made in conjunction with the protest.

The student, who was wanted on suspicion of attempted murder earlier this week, handed himself in at his local police station and was taken to Belgravia police station for questioning. Today, he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court charged with, speaking only to confirm his name age and address. His lawyer, Matthew Foot, sought adjournment to examine video evidence, and the trial was adjourned until 24 November. Until then, Woollard has been granted bail, on condition that he remains at his current address, and does not enter the.

Friends expressed shock at the arrest, and have created a supportive Facebook page. One fellow student described Woolard as the "most laid back, decent and nicest bloke" he had ever met; another wrote that "[Edward] has such a good heart and he would never intentionally hurt anyone."


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Wikinews:Water cooler/miscellaneous/archives/2010/November

Interviewing
All going well, I should be at the Scottish Parliament in a few weeks time to do an interview. The interviewee should be MSP Alex Neil, minister for Housing and Communities.

This is following on from my research into social housing, and the Right to Buy policy. It would be particularly timely in light of many of the UK government austerity measures, and cuts to the benefits budget. Please email my personal address (brian dot mcneil868 at o2 . co . uk) if there are good points you feel I could add into this. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good luck.--Zucchinidreams (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Featured articles candidates
Just to remind you there are six featured articles candidates, and I'd really like to close my first FAC :-P Cheers, and vote! vote! vote! Diego Grez return fire 01:41, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I Voted for the first one. I don't have quite enough time to look at the other. Good job, and I hope you get it.  Nascar 1996   02:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Just as a reminder for the community, Featured Article Candidates can be discussed and supported at that link. -  Amgine | t 02:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikinews on Facebook
Hello everyone, I see that we have twitter running our stories, but have noticed that Facebook remains dormant. There are actually people there who are asking for our news and want to know if the Facebook account will continue to update. The most recent message asking for news alerts from us was the 4th of this month. Therefore I propose that we begin working towards reviving Wikinews on Facebook and as Brian McNeil has said we should begin by devising a list of who has access to what. Any thoughts? Regards, Bobby122   Contact Me   (C)  15:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It can be set up that Facebook syncs with Twitter, if I recall correctly. — μ 10:41, November 18 2010 (UTC)
 * Note for the record, Shakataganai has access to most everything (except for the RSS feed which is controlled by CSpurrier, and some others who long ago left). TUFKAAP, and DragonFire1024 also have access to twitter afaik. Bawolff ☺☻ 17:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Cadillac unveils Obama's 'Beast', the 2009 Presidential State Car
This has been our most-visited article every hour for the past sixteen or so hours, twice peaking over 1400 per. Any notions what's up? --Pi zero (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Press media in Portugal is giving a lot of coverage right now to the fact that the US President is driving a fuel-inefficient car, at a green-energy summit, while all other world leaders are zipping around in much more energy efficient, smaller cars. -- Cirt (talk) 16:57, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Presumably, then, it's been linked-to as a result. It was up at four-figure hits at one stage. Blood Red Sandman  (Talk)   (Contribs) 17:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * http://stats.grok.se/en.n/201011/Cadillac%20unveils%20Obama%27s%20%27Beast%27,%20the%202009%20Presidential%20State%20Car Even before today it was doing quite good considering its a year old. Bawolff ☺☻ 17:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hah, that's a Floro article:). Gopher65talk 01:20, 21 November 2010 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/miscellaneous/archives/2010/October

Interviewed: APA, RISJ
Just a FYI...

Over the course of the last week I ended up giving an email interview about Wikinews to Judith Högerl of the Austrian Press Association. This for a paper she's putting together for her work at the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism (http://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac).

I stressed key differences between Wikinews and Wikipedia - especially the review process, and accreditation.

Like Wikipedia, we seem poorly-understood by more mainstream press. --Brian McNeil / talk 12:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


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Talk:London fire extinguisher throw suspect bailed

OR
Picture from Facebook, with permission from the copyright holder; quotes from http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=175338539145027. — μ 19:46, November 17 2010 (UTC)
 * I know the subjects that he does from knowing him personally. — μ 21:36, November 17 2010 (UTC)

COI disclosure: He's my friend. — μ 21:36, November 17 2010 (UTC)

Sourcing
Sourcing needed for the following:

 * He was originally wanted for attempted murder;

 * His subjects are Philosophy, Politics, and Classics;

 * Around 200 students entered the building, some vandalising it ;

 * "Watched by thousands of students gathered outside";

Also, this article says one officer was narrowly missed; the Sun states it struck two officers. Is any of this stuff in the videos? I've not watched those, but I shall if you've used info from there. Blood Red Sandman (Talk)   (Contribs) 21:18, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


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text: Comments:London fire extinguisher throw suspect bailed


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User talk:121.54.2.84

Welcome
Thanks for experimenting with Wikinews. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles may disrupt the site's working and will be reverted quickly. , welcome to Wikinews! Please refrain from using content pages for testing. Here are a few good links for newcomers on how to edit Wikinews:

Our key policies - if you read anything, read these! Here a few pointers to help you get to know Wikinews: There are always things to do on Wikinews: By the way, you can sign your name on Talk pages using four tildes ( ~~~~ ), which produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, you can ask them at the water cooler or to anyone on the Welcommittee, or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Diego Grez return fire 01:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Neutral point of view - tell every side to a story in a fair and balanced way
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 * Existing articles need expanding and checking for spelling and mistakes
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title: User talk:121.54.2.84


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User talk:74.36.67.18

Shouldn't I be able to have second chances! i didnt do anything......hv/.
 * No. Diego Grez return fire 02:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

why

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Thread:Comments:New insulin-resistance discovery may help diabetes sufferers/this is great news, but/reply

The Medicine and the consequences attached to its use has always been a subject of debate, various diseases exhibit in diffrent stages and diffrent spectrums rather than a form that can be defined. I think discipline and community support holds the " Back bone " but the wish of it acting to be the only primary method without medicinal suppliment can be pain saking for the subject itself. You would not like to talk about insurance when you have Diabetes and usual discipline cannot help you out when you have glucose levels not permitting, saving becomes the only focus not the means and believe my friend real life is different facing on wide spectrums we come across daily.


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Thread:Comments:London fire extinguisher throw suspect bailed/What a twat

What a twat


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