text:
Talk:Goidelic languages

Unsourced info removed
I'm removing the following information because it has been tagged as being unsourced for some time: If anyone can find sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. —Angr 18:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * [The term "Gaelic"] in Britain, most often refers to Scottish Gaelic and it is the word that Scottish Gaelic speakers themselves use when speaking English. In the USA however, the word is often used by members of the Irish diaspora to refer to the Irish language. Within Ireland, native speakers in Donegal are more likely to refer to the language in English as Gaelic rather than Irish.

More unsourced info removed
I'm removing the following statement which has been tagged as needing a source for some time: Again, if anyone can provide a source for this claim, feel free to add it. —Angr 18:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Others may feel use of the term strengthens feelings of solidarity among speakers of the sister languages.

Don't fight in the article (History and range - Celtiberian)
WHOMEVER KEEPS REMOVING THIS YOU HAVE NO CAUSE, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM

This is inappropriate for being on an article. Take your beefs elsewhere. Atcavage 16:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Such as here on the talk page. The information the anon keeps adding to the article is inappropriate for a variety of reasons. First, the question of the origin of the Gaels is not really relevant to an article on the Goidelic languages; it would make more sense to discuss it at Gaels. Second, the sentence "Goidelic is similar to Celtiberian, both being Q-Celtic languages" doesn't make much sense. A Q-Celtic language is simply one that failed to undergo the innovative change of kw > p; failure to undergo an innovation does not indicate any similarity. (It's like saying English is similar to Gothic because both failed to undergo the High German consonant shift.) Third, O'Rahilly's historical model is a fringe theory that pretty much no one but O'Rahilly has ever believed; including it here puts UNDUE weight on it. —Angr 17:10, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've found this happening in other Celtic language articles - the argument that because Celtiberian has K where Brythonic and Gaulish have P, therefore the Leabhar Gabhala and/or O'Rahilly must be correct. Someone is putting forward their favourite theories. - Paul S, 20:25 17 March 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul S (talk • contribs) 20:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

 * In addition to what Angr has said above, the early paragraph about Q Celtic makes it clear that Celtiberian is not a Goidelic language. Since this section is about the history and range of Goidelic languages it is not appropriate to include information about Celtiberian here.

 * I have removed the paragraph and the section tags. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 02:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Cornish and Gaulish
Gaulish is listed as part of the Brythonic languages...when I thought it was part of its own continental or Gaulish subfamily. If we are to list dead languages, Cornish should be listed in the place of Gaulish as a Brythonic language. I have no references offhand, but I would challenge someone to show me that I am wrong. I, at some point in the future, will get accredited references to back up my position. AnthroGael 03:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it says Gaulish and Brythonic are sometimes collectively known as P-Celtic. It doesn't say Gaulish is Brythonic. —Angr 05:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough. My bad. Still, if we are to list the P-Celtic languages, is there a reason why we would include Gaulish ahead of Cornish in this table? Maybe we could add Cornish as one of these pink background titles? Or perhaps we could add a legend explaining the pink/green colour code? AnthroGael 11:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)AnthroGael 11:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, is there any reason for the table to be here at all? It doesn't really add much to a discussion of the Goidelic languages. —Angr 17:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

thecornish language is alive and kicking and is officialy recognised. Any attempt to make it appear as a dead language would be factualy incorrect.Fletch 2002 (talk) 00:47, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

True Shelta is not cant and does not have English in it
The original and pure Shelta has no English in it but is a back slang gaelic.

Gaelic words like mac are cam in shelta. Many modern Irish travellers of today travel both Ireland and the UK and now speak a mix cant language. True Shelta is not Cant.

You must change the phrase about shelta being cant as irish traveller cant is a modern corruption of the original tongue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit 19:16, 29 June 2008
I've restored some more text deleted by 83.147.180.163 and made a variety of small changes that hopefully restore sense to some sections that through multiple edits and deletions were beginning to sound strange.

I've rephrased the para beginning "Early Modern Irish" to refer to "Early Modern Irish...and its equivalent Classical Gaelic". Hopefully this is sufficiently neutral and acceptable to the pan-Gaelicists. As it was, the fact that the literary language was the same had become a casualty in the nomenclature war. I'm not sure I've restored it with this change, but I think it's better.

The part added by 83.147.180.163 about orthography needs work. Is it saying that the orthography arose simultaneously in Ireland and Scotland in the 8th century? It says "Ireland and Scotland shared the same written form for over [a] thousand years" but is this actually true? Even if it was written in Scotland in the 8th century, hadn't the form changed in Ireland by the 18th century? It's hard to see how the "over [a] thousand years" is arrived at.

Oh yes, and does "but in the early 20th century Irish adopted a new written form" refer to the 1948 spelling reform? Would "mid 20th century" be better?

After a long day's mountainbiking I've gone for just tagging it. :)

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC) (probably reclining on a couch by the time you read this)
 * Even Dinneen's 1904 dictionary had some spelling reforms that were never implemented in Scotland, or only implemented there later, like "solas" in place of "solus", "Béarla" in place of "Beurla", and "sp sc" in place of "sb sg". But Irish and Scottish spellings began to deviate from each other earlier, since the grave accent has (AFAIK) never been used in Ireland. I'm not sure how old it is in Scotland, though. —Angr 13:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Exactly, it's just too neat a statement. Didn't a lot of those 'reforms' arise a lot earlier anyway?  I'm pretty sure there were innovative forms appearing from the 17th century.

 * I really wasn't sure if something useful could be made of this or whether it should just be removed. I've had a go at pruning it back to something more reasonable, but there would be barely anything left so I've removed it.  I think this info is available elsewhere anyway.  ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 01:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Peculiar
It's fun sometimes looking through an article's history to see the wide variety of interpretations that can be put on any string of words. I found that this (which I think I wrote)...

"Furthermore, due to the peculiar politics of language and national identity, some Irish speakers are offended by the use of the word Gaelic by itself to refer to Irish."

...had the word peculiar removed by some anon IP - (→Nomenclature: insulting "peculiar" removed). Ahem, I'm not sure if I meant it in the general sense "distinguished in nature or character; particular, special", or as "unlike others, singular, unusual, strange, odd", but either way I can't see how it's insulting. However you feel about the word as applied to Irish, you have to admit that, without knowing anything of the history of its use, it does appear odd.

It's no great loss though. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 02:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't even say that Irish speakers' offense at the word "Gaelic" is peculiar; it says that the politics of language and national identity is peculiar. I really think it can only mean peculiar in the sense of "particular" not in the sense "weird". —Angr 06:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

{copypaste} on Manx section
Prior to this edit the first two paragraphs of the Manx section were almost word-for-word identical to text at www.gov.im/tourism/culture. While I realise there exists the possibility that the Isle of Man government website lifted the text in question from this article, I feel that this is so unlikely as to be not worth considering. The question I have is, have the subsequent edits to the section taken it out of the realm of WP:COPYVIO or not? I suspect not. Recommended action, anyone? --Yumegusa (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Here is the edit which brought in the suspect text, nearly two years ago, by an IP editor.--Yumegusa (talk) 22:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the edits are enough to make it not a copyvio. Unfortunately, the entire paragraph needs to be rewritten from scratch. —Angr 05:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

--Yumegusa (talk) 21:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm blanking the offending paragraphs for the moment, as the copyvio can't be simply let slide.

 * The matter was listed at Copyright problems/2008 October 7 for investigation and has today come current. Thanks for catching the problem! There is no question that the material was duplicated from Wikipedia, as internet archives confirm that the text at the external site predates its introduction here. The site bears a clear copyright reservation. I've removed the material altogether to reduce the risk of it being inadvertently reintroduced. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Nomenclature edits
I'm doing some cleaning up of the Nomenclature section as it's once again suffering from edit-itis. Many clarifications and prevarications have been added which destroy the flow of the text and make it much harder to read. All of these are unnecessary.

"Although Irish and Manx may be referred to as Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic (as they are Goidelic or Gaelic languages) the use of the word Gaelic is usually unnecessary because the terms Irish and Manx, when referring to language, only ever refer to these languages, whereas Scots by itself refers to a Germanic language and Scottish can refer to things not at all Gaelic (despite historically referring specifically to things Gaelic) . The word Gaelic by itself is sometimes used to refer to Scottish Gaelic and is thus somewhat ambiguous, although in this context it is usually pronounced (that is, the same as Gallic), rather than."

 * usually: this plus the (wordy) qualification "when referring to language" is just too much.
 * (despite historically referring specifically to things Gaelic): the word "can" covers the possibility that there are other uses - this is not the place to list them. It's the ambiguity that's the point, not what the word can or could have meant.
 * somewhat: a weasel word if ever I saw one. There's either ambiguity or there isn't.
 * although in this context it is usually pronounced (that is, the same as Gallic), rather than : "Pronounced by who?" I might ask.  It's true that people in Scotland might do that, but then they wouldn't pronounce the Gaelic in Irish Gaelic any differently, so what exactly is the point of this random information about Scottish English pronunciation?

Text below in bold restored after deletion by 192.122.222.206 with no reason given. If it deserves deletion then so does the following para.

"Furthermore, due to the politics of language and national identity, some Irish speakers are offended by the use of the word Gaelic by itself to refer to Irish.

Similarly, Scottish Gaelic speakers find offensive the use of the obsolete word Erse (from Scots Inglis Eris, "Irish") to refer to their language. This term was used in Scotland since at least the late 15th century to refer to Gaelic, which had also been called Scottis.

The names used in languages themselves (Gaeilge in Irish, Gaelg/Gailck in Manx, and Gàidhlig in Scottish Gaelic) are derived from Old Irish Goídelc, which in itself is from the originally more-or-less derogatory term Gwiddel meaning "pirate, raider" in Old Welsh comes from the Old Welsh Guoidel meaning "pirate, raider".

The Goidels called themselves various names according to their tribal/clan affiliations, but the most general seems to have been the name rendered in Latin as Scoti. This is possibly related to the modern Gaelic term scoth the best, which would be the expected modern form of the Primitive Irish (Gaelic) *scotos (plural *scoti). The change from Scot referring to the people to Scot referring mainly to the country (and then the people of the country) dates from the time the Scottish kingdom(s), previously Pictish, were taken over by the Gaelic Scots."

 * Gwiddel: never seen this form before & I'm about 99% sure that Guoidel is the earliest Welsh form. Rephrased what had become a very awkward sentence.  The reader can draw their own conclusions about whether the name is derogatory; we have no idea what people at time thought about it.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Goidels: This is not an article about the Gaels so information not relating to the names of the languages isn't appropriate here. (Added by Roidhrigh 21:57, 28 March 2009)

just one thing l saw this page and wanted to say in Scotland the language is normally 99% of the time pronounced (ɡalɪk) while the irish pronunciation is ɡeɪlɪk. l think this is where the confusion stems from .when someone is referring to ɡeɪlɪk they are mostly always referring to irish,even with modern confusions and some referring to scottish as ɡeɪlɪk now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Staringeyes (talk • contribs) 10:45, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Decrufting opening para
"The Goidelic languages, (also sometimes called, particularly in colloquial situations, the Gaelic languages or collectively Gaelic), historically formed a dialect continuum stretching from the south of Ireland, through the Isle of Man, to the north of Scotland. There are three modern Goidelic languages: Irish (Gaeilge), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), and Manx (Gaelg). However, until approximately 1700 (and much later among some areas), Irish and Scottish Gaelic had exactly the same literary language, divergence only coming after the serious English inroads from around that date. Manx (through default of evidence) was also part of the same language, though evidence of the use of Literary Gaelic on Man is circumstantial. However, older versions of literary Scottish Gaelic and Irish were similar enough to have been considered dialects of a single language."

 * also sometimes called...: if further discussion of what they might be called is needed, put it in the Nomenclature section rather than constipating the opening para.
 * However, until approximately 1700...: since this is discussed in para 3 and in the History and range section, I've reverted to the previous simpler and shorter text. Also assertions that the languages diverged because of "English inroads" seems a little hard to sustain.  Surely politics had something to do with it; in any case we should keep the opening paras as simple as possible.
 * Manx (through default of evidence)...: saying that something's so even though there's no evidence...hmmm.

"The Goidelic branch is also known as Q-Celtic, because Proto-Celtic *kʷ was originally retained in this branch (later losing its labialisation and to become ing plain [k]), as opposed to Brythonic, where *kʷ became [p]. This sound change is also found in Gaulish, so Brythonic and Gaulish are collectively known as "P-Celtic". In Celtiberian *kʷ is also retained, so the term "Q-Celtic" can be equally applied to it as well, although it is not a Goidelic languages, just as Gaulish is not Brythonic.

Early Modern Irish was used as a literary language in Ireland until the 17th century, and its equivalent, Classical Gaelic was used as a literary language in Scotland until the 18th century. Later orthographic divergence is the result of more recent orthographic reforms resulting has resulted in in standardised pluricentric diasystems. Manx orthography, is based on English and Welsh, and was introduced in 1610, and but was never widely used. All Irish and Scottish persons of a literary background (bards, poets, seanchaidhes, etc.) were banned on pain of death from the Isle of Man in the 1500s, and so the literary contacts that the Manx obviously existed before this time were severed."

 * Later orthographic divergence is the result of more recent orthographic reforms...: Later divergence = recent reforms, so what are we saying here? This may have made sense once upon a time, but I haven't time for the archaelogy required to find it.

 * All Irish and Scottish persons...: I was tempted to try to reword this in the hope of a good reference appearing, but it's probably better to remove it for now. Basically all we can say is that we think Man was included in the same literary continuum, but we have no evidence, which is not particularly encyclopedic.  It's probably best to keep highly speculative material out of the opening paras at least.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 10:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Unclear Sentence
"but sometime between the 3rd century and the 6th century a group of the Irish Celts known to the Romans as Scoti began migrating from Ireland to what is now Scotland"

Reading this sentence it would be very easy to mistakenly assume that "Scoti" refers specifically to the group which migrated to Caledonia and not the Irish Celts in general. Murchadh (talk) 00:15, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic appear to be blurred together
Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic appear to be blurred together ... why?

They are Goidelic Languages ... why blur the terminology together?

 * "There are three modern Goidelic languages, Irish (Gaeilge), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), and Manx (Gaelg). "

Should it not be written as follows,

 * "There are three modern Goidelic languages, Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), and Manx Gaelic (Gaelg). "

The term Gaelic has been incorrectly cut-out of Irish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic ... why?

For instance,

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/liosta/

"There are three varieties of Gaelic: Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic. These are closely related and very similar, but they are not mutually understandable except to speakers who have had the equivalent of at least a couple of days contact with the other variety. (The other three Celtic languages, Welsh, Cornish and Breton, belong to a different branch and are not so closely related to Gaelic.)"

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 04:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not "incorrect" to cut out the "Gaelic" from Irish and Manx. Irish is only occasionally called "Irish Gaelic", and Manx very rarely called "Manx Gaelic". The most common names of the three languages are in fact "Irish", "Manx", and "Scottish Gaelic" (or "Scots Gaelic" or just "Gaelic"). +Angr 06:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello Angr.

In English Language texts on Linguistics, the clear terms of Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic are used to make up the Goidelic Language group of the Celtic Branch of the Proto Indo-European Language. The terms Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic are excepted, precise, linguistic nomenclature ... why use the imprecise short-form terms of just Irish, and just Manx?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Because those simply aren't their common names. And there's no ambiguity in omitting it, because there are no other languages called "Irish" or "Manx"; after all, we don't say "English Germanic" or "French Romance" or "Russian Slavic" either. (With Scottish Gaelic, the "Gaelic" isn't really dispensable, as that would lead to confusion with Scots.) +Angr 10:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Not really the same, as "English Germanic" and the like are not used, whereas "X Gaelic" is quite common. Baring in mind that in common speech Irish is either "Irish" or "Gaelic", and Scottish Gaelic is almost always "Gaelic", it's fair enough to distinguish them systematically, so that everyone from both countries and internationally, knows what's being said. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 11:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, "X Gaelic" isn't quite common unless X = Scottish; for X = Irish it's rather rare and for X = Manx it's very rare (but still more common than "English Germanic" etc. of course). The point is, it is neither incorrect nor misleading to say simply "Irish" and "Manx" without the "Gaelic". +Angr 11:20, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello.

The Celtic Language branch of the Proto Indo-European Language has two sub-branches, the Brythonic Group, and the Goidelic Group. The Brythonic Group contains the Cumbrian (i.e., Cumbric), Welsh, Cornish, and Breton languages. The Goidelic Group contains the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages.

The Gauls are separate from the Gaels. The Gaels are composed of the Irish Gaels, Scottish Gaels, and the Manx Gaels, and they speak the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages, respectively. This is all accepted Linguistic nomenclature in the English Language texts. Why would one not use its preciseness?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Because doing so may cross the line from preciseness into needless redundancy. +Angr 11:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

 * @ Angr (e/c) It's not common at all to call Scottish Gaelic "X Gaelic", just "Gaelic" [Scots are only vaguely aware that Irish actually exists, and if you ask most they'll say the name difference is "Gahlic" versus "Gaylic"]. And it's almost as common to call Irish just Gaelic too. There is a bit of dissonance with "X, Y, ZG", as you could write "Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic" and it wouldn't be clear if Irish and Manx [and Scottish] were interchangeable adjectives, or part of standalone names ... though I suppose this is a good argument to prefer that order. But, no, I don't disagree that doing so is acceptable. I did it myself above. You may wish to ponder however that not everyone is brought up on linguistics text books, and the dissonance may cause more confusion than you'd imagine. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 11:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right that in Scotland, "gd" is generally just called Gaelic unmodified, but I think that in the rest of the world the adjective "Scottish" or "Scots" is usually included, unless it's clear from the context. +Angr 11:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Hello Angr.

In English Language texts, the Goidelic Group is enumerated as the Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic languages. ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 11:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In some of them, yes, but I think you'll find that in English-language texts, "ga" is more often called "Irish" than "Irish Gaelic" and "gv" is far more often called "Manx" than "Manx Gaelic". +Angr 11:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I have this book,

 * http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concise-Dictionary-Linguistics-Paperback-Reference/dp/0199202729

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics uses the terminology,

 * Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge),

 * Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig),

 * Manx Gaelic (Gaelg),

If this is good enough for the Oxford University Press why don't we use it here at Wikipedia?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 03:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

 * The Oxford English Dictionary (online) has these headwords:
 * Gaelic rather than Scottish Gaelic
 * Irish rather than Irish Gaelic
 * Manx rather than Manx Gaelic
 * Should we stop using the "Scottish" in "Scottish Gaelic", because it's good enough for the OED? Alternatively, should we stop using "Irish" and "Manx", as you propose, although it's good enough for the OED? Either way your argument fails. --Thrissel (talk) 09:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Hello Thrissel.

The Germanic Language branch sub-divides into,

 * North Germanic,

 * West Germanic,

 * East Germanic (i.e., Gothic which is now extinct),

Similarly, the Goidelic Language sub-divides into,

 * Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge),

 * Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig),

 * Manx Gaelic (Gaelg),

This terminology exists, and is used by Linguists, however why is it not is used here at Wikipedia?

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 17:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Because the other terminology, which exists, and is used by linguists, is used here at Wikipedia. --Thrissel (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Indo-European?
Why does the text of the article neglect to mention that these are Indo-European languages? The info-box does have such an attribution but it ought to be in the text, perhaps with discussion of their relationship to other Indo-European languages.~Mack2~ (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The obsession with Gaelic
I really thought this had been discussed so much that we could just leave it alone now. The reasons why (despite many Americans love of adding the word Gaelic to everything) it is unnecessary: I have removed the excess Gaelics in the article. Please don't just add them back in without some proper discussion as this has been a contentious issue in this article since at least 2004.
 * Speakers of Irish and Manx normally call them just that.
 * There is a history of "Gaelic" being used by people who don't approve of state funding of Irish. It is a politicised word in some contexts so is best avoided in an encyclopaedic work.
 * No useful information is added: there are no other languages called Irish or Manx.
 * The WP articles about the languages themselves use their regular names and do not include the word "Gaelic".

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The "Classic Gaelic"/"Early Modern Irish" para
This was once a small expansion on the "dialect continuum" reference in the opening para. Now it has become a hugely bloated digression fest. Information about different orthographies doesn't belong in the lead paragraphs of an article.

Since this is really a discussion of the range and spread of the language I've moved it to the appropriate section and merged it with the text there.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Examples
Though I can see Akerbeltz's point about not becoming a study in dialectology, showing dialect forms here does actually illustrate the old continuum of language that used to exist so I've corrected and added a little. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 13:52, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Irish
This paragraph isn't even a complete sentence"As well as the general assumption by the English and Anglicised ruling classes following the Flight of the Earls and disappearance of much of the Gaelic aristocracy that Irish was a language spoken by ignorant peasants." Frankly, it is a clumsily-worded, insipid attempt to derogate a people.

I have combined the ideas in it with the preceding paragraph--which was also composed of a single sentence.

--Patronanejo (talk) 20:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Patronanejo (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

River Usk/ Afon Wysg, is it evidence of a previous goidelic culture?
Can't help notice "Wysg" although used in modern Welsh, looks suspiciously like a goidelic word for water? (Which finds it's way into modern English as Whisky). Often in England, river names have a brythonic origin. Is this analagous evidence of a goidelic origin for a river in Wales- a Welsh "River Avon" if you like?

Does this mean that the Welsh really are the Irish who couldn't swim, and that a Brythonic elite displaced a goidelic one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.100.25.179 (talk) 23:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If you’re pushing a barrow at least do it with some finesse!
It’s frankly depressing to come back this article again and again over the years to find some barrow-pusher or hobby-horse rider has waded in an just done a big dump in the middle of a paragraph. If you can be bothered to take the time to add to an article, PLEASE try to make your addition fit it and not totally break the sense of surrounding sentences.

You may or may not be an island, but your contribution definitely isn’t! Try to make it fit in.

E.g. in an attempted refutation (?) of Ewen Campbell’s theory, user 95.44.233.78 added these sentences:

"However,considering that the Gaels originated in Ireland and that Scotland was the land of the Picts, it does seem likely that there was some Irish Gaelic settlement in Scotland, presumably bringing the Gaelic language with them."

Shaneg4015 added to it and KDS4444 chopped a sentence, removing the vital However and suggesting the opposite of the the original contribution. KDS4444 was right that this was WP:OR, but just didn’t remove enough.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:58, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 23 October 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 08:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Goidelic languages → Gaelic languages – WP:COMMONNAME by a mile. It's asserted in the archived talk page that Goidelic is the "proper" or "scientific" name, which may be true but really isn't important, policy-wise. It's questionable, too, since Gaelic is more common even in scholarly usage (see results below). Finally, "Goidelic" is uncommon even on Wikipedia. All of the subcategories of use "Gaelic", and only one other article has "Goidelic" in its title. --BDD (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC) General and Books searches include a -wikipedia qualifier. As often, some Wikipedia usages have seeped through, such as the top Books result for Goidelic. --BDD (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Support. Gaelic languages redirects here, seriously?! Move per overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME. Zarcadia (talk) 18:03, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's asserted in the archived talk page that Goidelic is the "proper" or "scientific" name, which may be true but really isn't important, policy-wise If anything that points straight to WP:OFFICIALNAME. Zarcadia (talk) 18:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Support It seems to be the common name. Dimadick (talk) 18:16, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Unsure. I'd like to see evidence based on up-to-date sources. Both terms have been used since the 19th century and scholarly preferences have fluctuated over time.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Question Have you filtered those search results to ensure that every instance of "gaelic languages" is synonymous with "goidelic languages"? I did a quick search and saw a number of instances where "gaelic languages" was not being used in the same sense, for example when talking about Scottish Gaelic alongside Scots... Scots and Gaelic languages. It may also be useful to limit the search to, say, the last five years and to go through the results removing quoted text and reprinted material to get a more accurate impression of current usage. Catfish  Jim  and the soapdish  20:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now due to User:Catfish Jim's concerns (which are borne out with a perusal of Google Books results; e.g. "Birnam Hill...has formed the boundary between the Lowlands and Highlands, and between the Saxon and Gaelic languages"), due to concern that "Gaelic languages" is shorthand for (Scottish) Gaelic and Irish (Gaelic) but not Manx, and due to the widespread use of "Goidelic languages" in encyclopedic sources (e.g. Britannica which uses "Goidelic languages" and does not even mention "Gaelic languages" as an alternative). —  AjaxSmack   02:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't find that this evidence convincingly demonstrates that "Gaelic" is commonly used in the same sense as "Goidelic" in the literature. Goidelic specifically refers to the branch of Celtic languages that is separate from Brythonic languages and in this sense I rarely see "Gaelic" (In fact I cannot remember having seen it at all). Gaelic seems to me more like an areal grouping including the Celtic languages of Irelan and Scotland. Fore me to accept the argument I would want to that "Gaelic" is preferred to "Goidelic" in the contexts of recent textbooks in linguistics that specifically describe the genetic division of Insular Celtic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:16, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Maunus and Catfish Jim.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 02:53, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Tentatively oppose, as much as I hate to do it (I've never liked that pretentious and basically anti-Gaelic, Victorian Latinism); the stats above are misleading. Gaelic languages is the common vernacular name for what is presently spoken as native, non-Germanic languages in Ireland, Scotland, and the Isle of Man, but I don't see a showing here that it is commonly used for the entire language family, which includes a lot of extinct languages. The WP:COMMONNAME in linguistics, which is the field that defines the scope of this language family, has long been Goidelic, for better or worse. I would happily reverse myself on this if there's clear evidence of a trend to refer to this linguistic family as Gaelic instead of Goidelic, as there has been toward Britonic and away from Brythonic, which has happened well within living memory.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:57, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the several points raised above. For example, I've yet to be convinced that the dead members of the group are commonly called "Gaelic". Johnbod (talk) 04:15, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Historical linguistics and language groups are a scholarly endeavour, so we should follow the scholarly usage rather than confuse the issue by appealing to general usage. In any case, the terms are not synonymous. "Gaelic languages", where used, will refer only to the modern languages. "Goidelic languages" is about the entire history and development of the language group. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is the technical term used in Celtic linguistics plus it is also wider that "Gaelic languages" which suggests modern Irish/Scots Gaelic/Manx whereas Goidelic encompasses historic varieties and would also, if such a thing was to be discovered, include branches no longer extant. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Redirects
Per WP:COMMONNAME / WP:PRIMARY and WP:SMALLDETAILS, Gaelic language goes to Scottish Gaelic (mostly only linguists call it it the latter; it's referred to by the Scottish as simply Gaelic), while Gaelic languages and Gaelic language family naturally redirect to Goidelic languages. Disambiguation is carried out at both articles with the hatnote. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  01:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Use of Gealic
Gealic was the language of the courts and the people up until the reign of the Malcolm III, surnames Caenmor Malcolm III of Scotland. P16, Vol 1. [Sketches] by David Stewart. scope_creep (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

"Goidelophone" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Goidelophone. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. buidhe 05:17, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

"Goidelic (Gaelic)" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Goidelic (Gaelic) language" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Gaelic group" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Goidelic (Gaelic) languages" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Goidelic (Gaelic) languages. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 2 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 10:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Goidelic to Gaelic
I suggest moving the page name to "Gaelic languages" rather than the unheard of (by people without etymological knowledge) "Goidelic". The lead could read: "the Gaelic langauges, also known as Goidelic languages" etc. Gaelicbow Gaelicbow (talk) 13:00, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

 * Please, can we not re-open a lengthy hair-splitting debate on what to call this page and work on content instead? With redirects, this name is very workable AND accurate. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Fix the hierarchy of Goidelic languages and provide references for it.
Do we have any references for (falsifiable) evidence for the current hierarchy of Goidelic languages? The Book of Invasions, according to its Wikipedia page, is now considered mythology by scholars. Since we do not have archaeological or genetic evidence of invasions of Britain by Irish during the early Middle Ages, we cannot claim or assume such invasions occurred.

We do have evidence that Goidelic descends from the Q-Celtic branch of the Indo-European language tree. Using that evidence and the Law of Parsimony the tree should look more like this:

Indo-European => (Q-)Celtic => Goidelic => • Old Irish => Middle Irish => Modern Irish • Manx • Scottish Gaelic

Of course, this tree refers to the spoken languages. The orthography of Goidelic languages will have a differently formatted tree should be addressed separately. Gortaleen (talk) 14:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Added a ref to end this non-debate. The chapter was written by Prof Kim McCone and if you don't know who that is, then you're in the wrong debate. Now let's move on. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:19, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * McCone’s chart shows Irish, Manx, and Scottish Gaelic as siblings. All we know of their parent’s origin is that it was an Indo-European language that came to the British Isles and Ireland from the continent.  We do know that tales of invasions from Iberia are not supported by archaeological or DNA findings.  Thus we have to relegate tales of Gaelic being brought to Ireland by Iron Age Iberians, and the related downstream assumptions, to the mythology category.
 * https://archive.org/details/stairnagaeilgein0000unse/page/64/mode/1up?view=theater Gortaleen (talk) 08:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

 * We're talking historical linguistics and the image with the text derives Manx, ScG and IG from a common Old/Middle Irish ancestor. This has nothing to do with ancestral legends or DNA. We have a reliable source. Find a reliable source that contradicts McCone, otherwise this debate is over. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We need evidence to support claims. What evidence supports Manx and Scottish Gaelic being children of Irish?  If we do not have such evidence (someone just saying so is not evidence) then we are left to the default position of making no claim.  We have evidence that Irish, Scottish, and Manx Gaelic are closely related and are Indo-European languages.  That is our default position until evidence (and yes, DNA findings are now important evidence) has been published in peer-reviewed journals. Gortaleen (talk) 13:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

MIDDLE Irish. Find a source that refutes McCone or Stifter, otherwise end of. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Goidelic languages


text:
G protein

G proteins, also known as guanine nucleotide-binding proteins, are a family of proteins that act as molecular switches inside cells, and are involved in transmitting signals from a variety of stimuli outside a cell to its interior. Their activity is regulated by factors that control their ability to bind to and hydrolyze guanosine triphosphate (GTP) to guanosine diphosphate (GDP). When they are bound to GTP, they are 'on', and, when they are bound to GDP, they are 'off'. G proteins belong to the larger group of enzymes called GTPases.

There are two classes of G proteins. The first function as monomeric small GTPases (small G-proteins), while the second function as heterotrimeric G protein complexes. The latter class of complexes is made up of alpha (Gα), beta (Gβ) and gamma (Gγ) subunits. In addition, the beta and gamma subunits can form a stable dimeric complex referred to as the beta-gamma complex .

Heterotrimeric G proteins located within the cell are activated by G protein-coupled receptors (GPCRs) that span the cell membrane. Signaling molecules bind to a domain of the GPCR located outside the cell, and an intracellular GPCR domain then in turn activates a particular G protein. Some active-state GPCRs have also been shown to be "pre-coupled" with G proteins, whereas in other cases a collision coupling mechanism is thought to occur. The G protein triggers a cascade of further signaling events that finally results in a change in cell function. G protein-coupled receptors and G proteins working together transmit signals from many hormones, neurotransmitters, and other signaling factors. G proteins regulate metabolic enzymes, ion channels, transporter proteins, and other parts of the cell machinery, controlling transcription, motility, contractility, and secretion, which in turn regulate diverse systemic functions such as embryonic development, learning and memory, and homeostasis.

History
G proteins were discovered in 1980 when Alfred G. Gilman and Martin Rodbell investigated stimulation of cells by adrenaline. They found that when adrenaline binds to a receptor, the receptor does not stimulate enzymes (inside the cell) directly. Instead, the receptor stimulates a G protein, which then stimulates an enzyme. An example is adenylate cyclase, which produces the second messenger cyclic AMP. For this discovery, they won the 1994 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

Nobel prizes have been awarded for many aspects of signaling by G proteins and GPCRs. These include receptor antagonists, neurotransmitters, neurotransmitter reuptake, G protein-coupled receptors, G proteins, second messengers, the enzymes that trigger protein phosphorylation in response to cAMP, and consequent metabolic processes such as glycogenolysis.

Prominent examples include (in chronological order of awarding):

 * The 1947 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Carl Cori, Gerty Cori and Bernardo Houssay, for their discovery of how glycogen is broken down to glucose and resynthesized in the body, for use as a store and source of energy. Glycogenolysis is stimulated by numerous hormones and neurotransmitters including adrenaline.
 * The 1970 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Julius Axelrod, Bernard Katz and Ulf von Euler for their work on the release and reuptake of neurotransmitters.
 * The 1971 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Earl Sutherland for discovering the key role of adenylate cyclase, which produces the second messenger cyclic AMP.
 * The 1988 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to George H. Hitchings, Sir James Black and Gertrude Elion "for their discoveries of important principles for drug treatment" targeting GPCRs.
 * The 1992 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Edwin G. Krebs and Edmond H. Fischer for describing how reversible phosphorylation works as a switch to activate proteins, and to regulate various cellular processes including glycogenolysis.
 * The 1994 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Alfred G. Gilman and Martin Rodbell for their discovery of "G-proteins and the role of these proteins in signal transduction in cells".
 * The 2000 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Eric Kandel, Arvid Carlsson and Paul Greengard, for research on neurotransmitters such as dopamine, which act via GPCRs.
 * The 2004 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to Richard Axel and Linda B. Buck for their work on G protein-coupled olfactory receptors.
 * The 2012 Nobel Prize in Chemistry to Brian Kobilka and Robert Lefkowitz for their work on GPCR function.

Function
G proteins are important signal transducing molecules in cells. "Malfunction of GPCR [G Protein-Coupled Receptor] signaling pathways are involved in many diseases, such as diabetes, blindness, allergies, depression, cardiovascular defects, and certain forms of cancer. It is estimated that about 30% of the modern drugs' cellular targets are GPCRs." The human genome encodes roughly 800 G protein-coupled receptors, which detect photons of light, hormones, growth factors, drugs, and other endogenous ligands. Approximately 150 of the GPCRs found in the human genome still have unknown functions.

Whereas G proteins are activated by G protein-coupled receptors, they are inactivated by RGS proteins (for "Regulator of G protein signalling"). Receptors stimulate GTP binding (turning the G protein on). RGS proteins stimulate GTP hydrolysis (creating GDP, thus turning the G protein off).

Diversity
All eukaryotes use G proteins for signaling and have evolved a large diversity of G proteins. For instance, humans encode 18 different Gα proteins, 5 Gβ proteins, and 12 Gγ proteins.

Signaling
G protein can refer to two distinct families of proteins. Heterotrimeric G proteins, sometimes referred to as the "large" G proteins, are activated by G protein-coupled receptors and are made up of alpha (α), beta (β), and gamma (γ) subunits. "Small" G proteins (20-25kDa) belong to the Ras superfamily of small GTPases. These proteins are homologous to the alpha (α) subunit found in heterotrimers, but are in fact monomeric, consisting of only a single unit. However, like their larger relatives, they also bind GTP and GDP and are involved in signal transduction.

Heterotrimeric
Different types of heterotrimeric G proteins share a common mechanism. They are activated in response to a conformational change in the GPCR, exchanging GDP for GTP, and dissociating in order to activate other proteins in a particular signal transduction pathway. The specific mechanisms, however, differ between protein types.

Mechanism
Receptor-activated G proteins are bound to the inner surface of the cell membrane. They consist of the Gα and the tightly associated Gβγ subunits. There are four main families of Gα subunits: Gαs (G stimulatory), Gαi (G inhibitory), Gαq/11, and Gα12/13. They behave differently in the recognition of the effector molecule, but share a similar mechanism of activation.

Activation
When a ligand activates the G protein-coupled receptor, it induces a conformational change in the receptor that allows the receptor to function as a guanine nucleotide exchange factor (GEF) that exchanges GDP for GTP. The GTP (or GDP) is bound to the Gα subunit in the traditional view of heterotrimeric GPCR activation. This exchange triggers the dissociation of the Gα subunit (which is bound to GTP) from the Gβγ dimer and the receptor as a whole. However, models which suggest molecular rearrangement, reorganization, and pre-complexing of effector molecules are beginning to be accepted. Both Gα-GTP and Gβγ can then activate different signaling cascades (or second messenger pathways) and effector proteins, while the receptor is able to activate the next G protein.

Termination
The Gα subunit will eventually hydrolyze the attached GTP to GDP by its inherent enzymatic activity, allowing it to re-associate with Gβγ and starting a new cycle. A group of proteins called Regulator of G protein signalling (RGSs), act as GTPase-activating proteins (GAPs), are specific for Gα subunits. These proteins accelerate the hydrolysis of GTP to GDP, thus terminating the transduced signal. In some cases, the effector itself may possess intrinsic GAP activity, which then can help deactivate the pathway. This is true in the case of phospholipase C-beta, which possesses GAP activity within its C-terminal region. This is an alternate form of regulation for the Gα subunit. Such Gα GAPs do not have catalytic residues (specific amino acid sequences) to activate the Gα protein. They work instead by lowering the required activation energy for the reaction to take place.

Gαs
Gαs activates the cAMP-dependent pathway by stimulating the production of cyclic AMP (cAMP) from ATP. This is accomplished by direct stimulation of the membrane-associated enzyme adenylate cyclase. cAMP can then act as a second messenger that goes on to interact with and activate protein kinase A (PKA). PKA can phosphorylate a myriad downstream targets.

The cAMP-dependent pathway is used as a signal transduction pathway for many hormones including:

 * ADH – Promotes water retention by the kidneys (created by the magnocellular neurosecretory cells of the posterior pituitary)
 * GHRH – Stimulates the synthesis and release of GH (somatotropic cells of the anterior pituitary)
 * GHIH – Inhibits the synthesis and release of GH (somatotropic cells of anterior pituitary)
 * CRH – Stimulates the synthesis and release of ACTH (anterior pituitary)
 * ACTH – Stimulates the synthesis and release of cortisol (zona fasciculata of the adrenal cortex in the adrenal glands)
 * TSH – Stimulates the synthesis and release of a majority of T4 (thyroid gland)
 * LH – Stimulates follicular maturation and ovulation in women; or testosterone production and spermatogenesis in men
 * FSH – Stimulates follicular development in women; or spermatogenesis in men
 * PTH – Increases blood calcium levels. This is accomplished via the parathyroid hormone 1 receptor (PTH1) in the kidneys and bones, or via the parathyroid hormone 2 receptor (PTH2) in the central nervous system and brain, as well as the bones and kidneys.
 * Calcitonin – Decreases blood calcium levels (via the calcitonin receptor in the intestines, bones, kidneys, and brain)
 * Glucagon – Stimulates glycogen breakdown in the liver
 * hCG – Promotes cellular differentiation, and is potentially involved in apoptosis.
 * Epinephrine – released by the adrenal medulla during the fasting state, when body is under metabolic duress. It stimulates glycogenolysis, in addition to the actions of glucagon.

Gαi
Gαi inhibits the production of cAMP from ATP. e.g. somatostatin, prostaglandins

Gαq/11
Gαq/11 stimulates the membrane-bound phospholipase C beta, which then cleaves phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate (PIP2) into two second messengers, inositol trisphosphate (IP3) and diacylglycerol (DAG). IP3 induces calcium release from the endoplasmic reticulum. DAG activates protein kinase C. The Inositol Phospholipid Dependent Pathway is used as a signal transduction pathway for many hormones including:
 * ADH (Vasopressin/AVP) – Induces the synthesis and release of glucocorticoids (Zona fasciculata of adrenal cortex); Induces vasoconstriction (V1 Cells of Posterior pituitary)
 * TRH – Induces the synthesis and release of TSH (Anterior pituitary gland)
 * TSH – Induces the synthesis and release of a small amount of T4 (Thyroid Gland)
 * Angiotensin II – Induces Aldosterone synthesis and release (zona glomerulosa of adrenal cortex in kidney)
 * GnRH – Induces the synthesis and release of FSH and LH (Anterior Pituitary)

Gα12/13

 * Gα12/13 are involved in Rho family GTPase signaling (see Rho family of GTPases). This is through the RhoGEF superfamily involving the RhoGEF domain of the proteins' structures). These are involved in control of cell cytoskeleton remodeling, and thus in regulating cell migration.

Gβ, Gγ

 * The Gβγ complexes sometimes also have active functions. Examples include coupling to and activating G protein-coupled inwardly-rectifying potassium channels.

Small GTPases
Small GTPases, also known as small G-proteins, bind GTP and GDP likewise, and are involved in signal transduction. These proteins are homologous to the alpha (α) subunit found in heterotrimers, but exist as monomers. They are small (20-kDa to 25-kDa) proteins that bind to guanosine triphosphate (GTP). This family of proteins is homologous to the Ras GTPases and is also called the Ras superfamily GTPases.

Lipidation
In order to associate with the inner leaflet of the plasma membrane, many G proteins and small GTPases are lipidated, that is, covalently modified with lipid extensions. They may be myristoylated, palmitoylated or prenylated.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: G protein


text:
Talk:Germanic languages

Lombardic (again!)
I removed Lombardic from its absurd position straddling E & WGMc and it has been reverted. The reason for removing it was quite simple and has been discussed before. Every major handbook on the history of German says Lombardic is West Germanic. Some editors of this page hold the opinion (as they're entitled to do) that it either is or might be EGmc. However, they are quite unable to support this so far with even a single source. never mind a match for the dozen or I listed some time ago on this Talk page. Since the EGmc claim flies in the face of the unanimous view in the handbooks that Lombardic is West Germanic, it really has no place on this page at all - if there were anything to it, the Lombardic page would be the place - let alone in a table which attempts to summarise the accepted view of the relationship of the Gmc languages. The idea that the note (whose claim, after all, would also seems to be untrue) somehow excuses this doesn't count as a reason to revert in my view.

I appreciate that people are attached to their opinions, but if you can't back them up with citations, what basis have you got for objecting to their removal from this page in favour of a view thoroughly supported in the published literature? --Pfold 21:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Was there actually a meaningful difference at this stage between "East Germanic" and "West Germanic"? Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 21:24, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I reverted because your edit summary implied that sources had been requested for a year, when there wasn't even a fact tag on it, and because simply removing Lombardic from the table doesn't solve anything. If the majority of scholars hold Lombardic to be West Germanic rather than East Germanic, then move it to the West Germanic column of the table. But keep the note explaining that there is a dispute about the issue. —Angr 21:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lombardic must have been quite close to Gothic dialects: Therefore an East Germanic language, however in the last decades strongly influenced by South and West Germanic neighbours. There is no secret about this. ;-) 2001:9E8:AAA7:D500:9C6D:600B:9D4F:E525 (talk) 18:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

map
the map is very distorted; the north is inclined towards the left: it gives a wrong perception of Europe as it is in reality. The results: France seems almost at the same latitudes than Germany on the map, which is far from reality! Maybe it would be better to find a map that is not so much distorted to give a better perception of how Europe really is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 (talk) 21:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I think that much "twist" is necessary in order to get Iceland and northern Norway on the map. And those are more important to a map of the Germanic languages than France! —Angr 04:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Because has Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales coloured the same as England it could give the false impression that the various Celtic languages found in these countries are Germanic or that Germanic languages are the only ones spoken in these places. In contrast, Belgium doesn't have the entire area within its border coloured like this and so accounts for French being spoken in addition to Dutch. There is also the problem of the map not being labeled with dates despite being in the history section. From the way it looks I've assumed it represents the spread of Germanic languages currently spoken in Europe, but if it's supposed to represent the spread Germanic languages much earlier than ~1850 then it becomes very flawed with respect to Celtic languages. 02:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meltyman (talk • contribs)

The map is wrong in many places. East Frisian is only spoken in a tiny portion of Lower Saxony and not on the North Sea Coast. Frisian is spoken in northern Germany and not southern Denmark as it shows. It also has the island of Ruegen the wrong color as the rest of Germany. The map implies that only English is spoken in Ireland and Scotland. Not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.146.129 (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the map implies that English is spoken in Ireland and Scotland, which is true. Colors showing where languages are spoken are not meant to imply exclusivity. +Angr 15:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The map "The present-day distribution of the Germanic languages in Europe" is wrong about the northern part of Norway: A large majority, also in the counties of Troms and Finnmark, speak Norwegian. (It is only in the two municipalities of Karasjok and Kautokeino that Sami speaking people is a majority of native speakers.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.163.110 (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the map is also wrong about Alemannic German, namely regarding Switzerland and Alsace-Lorraine.2001:9E8:AAA7:D500:9C6D:600B:9D4F:E525 (talk) 18:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Atleast call "German" "Standardgerman"! (EDIT: even better: Neuhochdeutsche Schriftsprache)
In the Article is a Vocabulary comparison Table where it is assumed that the "Standargerman" spelling is called just German! That is much too imprecise.

Westfrisian and Lowgerman get their own table columns even though almost no one speaks this language any more. the bavarian language, on the other hand, is alive! 320luca (talk) 16:52, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Only answering the last exclamation: linguistic vitality is not a major criterion here, otherwise we wouldn't have Gothic here, which is considerably deader than the rest. We just want a to give a broad yet concise sample of the major branches, and High German varieties are already represented by Standard German. –Austronesier (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Second what Austronesier said. Also: the normal name for "Standard German" is "German," just as the normal name for "Standard French" is "French," "Standard Italian" "Italian," etc. There is no need to specify "standard" in this context.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a need to specify because the Name is not German but Standardgerman or Hochdeutsch. (not to be confused with uppergerman) 320luca (talk) 21:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no standard on how to write word in bavarian, so german can not represent the Upper german language(s). 320luca (talk) 21:15, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In fact the name is "German" (or Deutsch if you prefer). Are you telling me that Duden is wrong ? "Standard German" would only be necessary if we were discussing German dialects, which we are not (Low German is generally considered a separate language by linguists, as is West Frisian, which is spoken in the Netherlands anyway). Furthermore, (standard) German is a standardized Upper/High German variant for the most part (with Middle German elements), so, yes, it is quite representative of Upper German. I notice you aren't insisting we add "standard" to any other languages on the table, all of which also have dialects.--Ermenrich (talk) 21:33, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Duden is neither wrong nor right, but it is but one Dictionary of Spelling among others.
 * If Low German is a seperate Language in which they dont write "Fliege" but "Fleeg", how can we then let German stand and not be more clear in the Table?
 * Readers are already assuming that the "Germans" (whoever they are...nobody seems to be sure on WP) all have one Standard on how to write "proper" German, when in fact these Words in the Table are only written this Way in Standardgerman.
 * Im a Native Speaker of Bavarian and Standardgerman is not representative of my Language.
 * That is not just i who is of that View but also Prof. Dr. Robert Hinderling im his Works.
 * (Im not interested in the other Languages.)
 * 320luca (talk) 21:57, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Low German has been differentiated from High German by the use of low. We don't include Bavarian on this table for the reasons already explained to you. The point is to show a wide range of differences caused by sound changes, hitting all the major branches, not represent every dialect or sub-variant of Germanic. Adding "standard" to "German" would be as redundant as adding "standard" to Danish or Dutch here.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:11, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * People not invested in Linguistics will then assume the whole "Germanspeaking" Countries write the same ie. speak the same, which is not the case in Switzerland, Austria, Southtyrol, Bavaria, etc...
 * But i dont fault you or me for arguring over this pointless Topic, afterall we just didnt accept yet that the whole of Austria and Southtyrol is not german anymore.
 * It id just that the Law, Politics, Wikipedia are slow to catch up.
 * Today German is only spoken and written in Germany. (But im not German, so i wont dictate it to the Discriminated on how they shoulf feel up there.) 320luca (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as 'Standardgerman'!
 * Dyḗwsuh₃nus (talk) 10:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standarddeutsch 320luca (talk) 21:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't wish to discourage your contributing, but, to be blunt, there is simply no point in a non-specialist who is not familiar with the English-language literature of the subject trying to "correct" the local (in some cases highly qualified) experts who are familiar with that literature. --Pfold (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your Honesty. I wont correct anybody, they need to understand it themselves. 320luca (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your Honesty. I wont correct anybody, they need to understand it themselves. 320luca (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

EDIT: An even better Word would be "neuhochdeutsche Schriftsprache" in case of German. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 320luca (talk • contribs) 23:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No it wouldn't. You appear to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS - Wikipedia is not here to fight your battle against the German language in Austria and South Tyrol.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussions at the article Southtyroleans (created by the OP of this discussion) need the attention of the editors of this page.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox map
The infobox map includes Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and Manx which are Celtic rather than Germanic languages. Perhaps understandably since they are not Germanic languages they are not mentioned anywhere in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.66.115.96 (talk) 08:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

 * No it doesn’t. Are you sure you’re linking to the right map?—Ermenrich (talk) 12:06, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Click to zoom in (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Germanic_languages_with_dialects.png) and you can see grey labels for "irish" in the centre of the Republic of Ireland, "welsh" in southeast Wales, and "cornish" in Cornwall.
 * The grey area in northwest Scotland is also somewhat misleading since for the most part people who report being able to speak Gaelic are <15% of the population. Only the Outer Hebrides have >50% Gaelic speakers. https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-government-gaelic-language-plan-2016-2021/pages/4/ 73.66.115.96 (talk) 23:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)\
 * See Cornish dialect, Irish English, Welsh English, and Manx English.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Elfdalian on family tree
Elfdalian should be under Daleclarian dialects on the family tree Cinnamon338 (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Germanic languages


text:
Talk:Great Britain

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2023
60% smaller is a meaningless statement, it's either 60% of the size or 40% of the size. 78.146.141.153 (talk) 23:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ - while '60% smaller' can only possibly mean 40% of the size, I have altered the wording for clarity. Tollens (talk) 01:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Since when does any country on the planet define itself in reference to the percentage it is bigger or smaller than another? That sentence  comes across as a pointless  willy measuring exercise at best. 109.78.145.59 (talk) 19:53, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * These aren't countries, they're islands. It's fairly common to compare sizes of geographical entities. WaggersTALK  10:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Shouldnt be "40 percent" instead of "40 per cent" 2601:285:8000:1C8:2009:7344:160A:B17F (talk) 15:19, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, "per cent" is correct. Put it down to WP:ENGVAR if you like - "percent" might be ok too but there's no reason to change it. 50% means 50 items for every 100 items, "100" is simply changed to "cent" so it becomes "50 per cent"; it doesn't suddenly become a single word. WaggersTALK  10:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2023
Change the population count to 65,034,142 as that is the new data taken from the England and Wales Census 2021 and Scotland’s 2022 Census. Isitreallyharry (talk) 18:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Delta  space 42 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

"England Island" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=England_Island&redirect=no England Island] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Rusalkii (talk) 22:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2024
There is a mistake in the article. 84.245.80.134 (talk) 05:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  (talk | contribs) 05:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a competition to shove the now archaic term Brytish isles into every single article in Wikipedia?
Wikipedia really needs to take a good look at the use of archaic geopolitical language being pushed by a small number of its editors 31.187.2.87 (talk) 11:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Great Britain