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Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

The Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress is an American four-engined heavy bomber aircraft developed in the 1930s for the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC). A fast and high-flying bomber of its era, the B-17 was used primarily in the European Theater of Operations and dropped more bombs than any other aircraft during World War II. It is the third-most produced bomber of all time, behind the American four-engined Consolidated B-24 Liberator and the German multirole, twin-engined Junkers Ju 88. It was also employed as a transport, antisubmarine aircraft, drone controller, and search-and-rescue aircraft.

In a USAAC competition, Boeing's prototype Model 299/XB-17 outperformed two other entries but crashed, losing the initial 200-bomber contract to the Douglas B-18 Bolo. Still, the Air Corps ordered 13 more B-17s for further evaluation, which were introduced into service in 1938. The B-17 evolved through numerous design advances but from its inception, the USAAC (from 1941 the United States Army Air Forces, USAAF) promoted the aircraft as a strategic weapon. It was a relatively fast, high-flying, long-range bomber with heavy defensive armament at the expense of bomb load. It also developed a reputation for toughness based upon stories and photos of badly damaged B-17s safely returning to base.

The B-17 saw early action in the Pacific War, where it conducted air raids against Japanese shipping and airfields. But it was primarily employed by the USAAF in the daylight component of the Allied strategic bombing campaign over Europe, complementing RAF Bomber Command's night bombers in attacking German industrial, military and civilian targets. Of the roughly 1.5 million tons of bombs dropped on Nazi Germany and its occupied territories by Allied aircraft, over 640,000 tons (42.6%) were dropped from B-17s.

At the start of 2024, six aircraft remain in flying condition. About 50 survive in storage or are on static display, the oldest of which is The Swoose, a B-17D which was flown in combat in the Pacific on the first day of the United States' involvement in World War II. There are also several reasonably complete wrecks, such as underwater, that have been found. B-17 survivors gained national attention in 2022 in the United States, when one was destroyed in a fatal mid-air collision with another warbird at an airshow.

Origins
On 8 August 1934, the USAAC tendered a proposal for a multiengine bomber to replace the Martin B-10. The Air Corps was looking for a bomber capable of reinforcing the air forces in Hawaii, Panama, and Alaska. Requirements were for it to carry a "useful bombload" at an altitude of 10000 ft for 10 hours with a top speed of at least 200 mph.

They also desired, but did not require, a bomber with a range of 2000 mi and a speed of 250 mph. The competition for the air corps contract was to be decided by a "fly-off" between Boeing's design, the Douglas DB-1, and the Martin Model 146 at Wilbur Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio.

The prototype B-17, with the Boeing factory designation of Model 299, was designed by a team of engineers led by E. Gifford Emery and Edward Curtis Wells, and was built at Boeing's own expense. It combined features of the company's experimental XB-15 bomber and 247 transport. The B-17's armament consisted of five .30 caliber (7.62 mm) machine guns, with a payload up to 4800 lb of bombs on two racks in the bomb bay behind the cockpit. The aircraft was powered by four Pratt & Whitney R-1690 Hornet radial engines, each producing 750 hp at 7000 ft.

The first flight of the Model 299 was on 28 July 1935 with Boeing chief test pilot Leslie Tower at the controls. The day before, Richard Williams, a reporter for The Seattle Times, coined the name "Flying Fortress" when – observing the large number of machine guns sticking out from the new aircraft – he described it as a "15-ton flying fortress" in a picture caption. The most distinctive mount was in the nose, which allowed the single machine gun to be fired toward nearly all frontal angles.

Boeing was quick to see the value of the name and had it trademarked for use. Boeing also claimed in some of the early press releases that Model 299 was the first combat aircraft that could continue its mission if one of its four engines failed. On 20 August 1935, the prototype flew from Seattle to Wright Field in nine hours and three minutes with an average cruising speed of 252 mph, much faster than the competition.

At the fly-off, the four-engined Boeing's performance was superior to those of the twin-engine DB-1 and Model 146. In March 1935 Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur created GHQ Air Force and promoted lieutenant colonel Frank Maxwell Andrews to brigadier general to become the head of GHQ Air Force. MacArthur and Andrews both believed that the capabilities of large four-engined aircraft exceeded those of shorter-ranged, twin-engine aircraft, and that the B-17 was better suited to new, emerging USAAC doctrine. Their opinions were shared by the air corps procurement officers, and even before the competition had finished, they suggested buying 65 B-17s.

On 30 October 1935, a test flight determining the rate of climb and service ceiling was planned. The command pilot was Major Ployer Peter Hill, Wright Field Material Division Chief of the Flying Branch, his first flight in the Model 299. Copilot was Lieutenant Donald Putt, while Boeing chief test pilot Leslie R. Tower was behind the pilots in an advisory role. Also on board were Wright Field test observer John Cutting and mechanic Mark Koegler. The plane stalled and spun into the ground soon after takeoff, bursting into flames. Though initially surviving the impact, Hill died within a few hours, and Tower on 19 November. Post-accident interviews with Tower and Putt determined the control surface gust lock had not been released. Doyle notes, "The loss of Hill and Tower, and the Model 299, was directly responsible for the creation of the modern written checklist used by pilots to this day."

The crashed Model 299 could not finish the evaluation, thus disqualifying it from the competition. While the Air Corps was still enthusiastic about the aircraft's potential, Army officials were daunted by its cost; Douglas quoted a unit price of $58,200 based on a production order of 220 aircraft, compared with $99,620  from Boeing. MacArthur's successor, Army Chief of Staff Malin Craig, canceled the order for 65 YB-17s and ordered 133 of the twin-engined Douglas B-18 Bolo, instead. Secretary of War Harry Hines Woodring in October 1938 decided that no four-engine bombers, including B-17s, would be purchased by the War Department in 1939. "The loss was not total... But Boeing's hopes for a substantial bomber contract were dashed."

Initial orders

Despite the crash, the USAAC had been impressed by the prototype's performance, and on 17 January 1936, through a legal loophole, the Air Corps ordered 13 YB-17s (designated Y1B-17 after November 1936 to denote its special F-1 funding) for service testing. The YB-17 incorporated a number of significant changes from the Model 299, including more powerful Wright R-1820-39 Cyclone engines. Although the prototype was company-owned and never received a military serial (the B-17 designation itself did not appear officially until January 1936, nearly three months after the prototype crashed), the term "XB-17" was retroactively applied to the NX13372's airframe and has entered the lexicon to describe the first Flying Fortress.

Between 1 March and 4 August 1937, 12 of the 13 Y1B-17s were delivered to the 2nd Bombardment Group at Langley Field in Virginia for operational development and flight tests. One suggestion adopted was the use of a preflight checklist to avoid accidents such as that which befell the Model 299. In one of their first missions, three B-17s, directed by lead navigator Lieutenant Curtis LeMay, were sent by General Andrews to "intercept" and photograph the Italian ocean liner Rex 610 mi off the Atlantic coast. The mission was successful and widely publicized. The 13th Y1B-17 was delivered to the Material Division at Wright Field, Ohio, to be used for flight testing.

A 14th Y1B-17 (37-369), originally constructed for ground testing of the airframe's strength, was upgraded by Boeing with exhaust-driven General Electric turbo-superchargers, and designated Y1B-17A. Designed by Sanford Moss, engine exhaust gases turned the turbine's steel-alloy blades, forcing high-pressure ram air into the Wright Cyclone GR-1820-39 engine supercharger. Scheduled to fly in 1937, it encountered problems with the turbochargers, and its first flight was delayed until 29 April 1938. The aircraft was delivered to the Army on 31 January 1939. Once service testing was complete, the Y1B-17s and Y1B-17A were redesignated B-17 and B-17A, respectively, to signify the change to operational status. The Y1B-17A had a maximum speed of 311 mph, at its best operational altitude, compared to 239 mph for the Y1B-17. Also, the Y1B-17A's new service ceiling was more than 2 miles higher at 38000 ft, compared to the Y1B-17's 27800 ft. These turbo-superchargers were incorporated into the B-17B.

Opposition to the Air Corps' ambitions for the acquisition of more B-17s faded, and in late 1937, 10 more aircraft designated B-17B were ordered to equip two bombardment groups, one on each U.S. coast. Improved with larger flaps and rudder and a well-framed, 10 panel plexiglass nose, the B-17Bs were delivered in five small batches between July 1939 and March 1940. In July 1940, an order for 512 B-17s was issued, but at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor, fewer than 200 were in service with the army.

A total of 155 B-17s of all variants were delivered between 11 January 1937 and 30 November 1941, but production quickly accelerated, with the B-17 once holding the record for the highest production rate for any large aircraft. The aircraft went on to serve in every World War II combat zone, and by the time production ended in May 1945, 12,731 B-17s had been built by Boeing, Douglas, and Vega (a subsidiary of Lockheed). "Though the crash of the prototype 299 in 1935 had almost wiped out Boeing, now it was seen as a boon. Instead of building models based on experimental engineering, Boeing had been hard at work developing their bomber and now had versions ready for production far better than would have been possible otherwise. One of the most significant weapons of World War II would be ready, but only by a hair."

Design and variants

The aircraft went through several alterations in each of its design stages and variants. Of the 13 YB-17s ordered for service testing, 12 were used by the 2nd Bomb Group at Langley Field, Virginia, to develop heavy bombing techniques, and the 13th was used for flight testing at the Material Division at Wright Field, Ohio. Experiments on this aircraft led to the use of a quartet of General Electric turbo-superchargers, which later became standard on the B-17 line. A 14th aircraft, the YB-17A, originally destined for ground testing only and upgraded with the turbochargers, was redesignated B-17A after testing had finished.

As the production line developed, Boeing engineers continued to improve upon the basic design. To enhance performance at slower speeds, the B-17B was altered to include larger rudders and flaps. The B-17C changed from three bulged, oval-shaped gun blisters to two flush, oval-shaped gun window openings, and on the lower fuselage, a single "bathtub" gun gondola housing, which resembled the similarly configured and located Bodenlafette/"Bola" ventral defensive emplacement on the German Heinkel He 111P-series medium bomber.

While models A through D of the B-17 were designed defensively, the large-tailed B-17E was the first model primarily focused on offensive warfare. The B-17E was an extensive revision of the Model 299 design: The fuselage was extended by 10 ft; a much larger rear fuselage, vertical tailfin, rudder, and horizontal stabilizer were added; a gunner's position was added in the new tail; the nose (especially the bombardier's framed, 10-panel nose glazing) remained relatively the same as the earlier B through D versions had; a Sperry electrically powered manned dorsal gun turret just behind the cockpit was added; a similarly powered (also built by Sperry) manned ventral ball turret just aft of the bomb bay – replaced the relatively hard-to-use, Sperry model 645705-D remotely operated ventral turret on the earliest examples of the E variant. These modifications resulted in a 20% increase in aircraft weight. The B-17's turbocharged Wright R-1820 Cyclone 9 engines were upgraded to increasingly more powerful versions of the same powerplants throughout its production, and similarly, the number of machine gun emplacement locations was increased.

The B-17F variant was the primary version used by the Eighth Air Force to face the Germans in 1943, and standardized the manned Sperry ball turret for ventral defense, also replacing the earlier, 10-panel framed bombardier's nose glazing from the B subtype with an enlarged, nearly frameless Plexiglas bombardier's nose enclosure for improved forward vision.

Two experimental versions of the B-17 were flown under different designations, the XB-38 'Flying Fortress' and the YB-40 'Flying Fortress.' The XB-38 was an engine testbed for Allison V-1710 liquid-cooled engines, should the Wright engines normally used on the B-17 become unavailable. The only prototype XB-38 to fly crashed on its ninth flight, and the concept was abandoned. The Allison V-1710 was reallocated to fighter aircraft.

The YB-40 was a heavily armed modification of the standard B-17 used before the North American P-51 Mustang, an effective long-range fighter, became available to act as escort. Additional armament included an additional dorsal turret in the radio room, a remotely operated and fired Bendix-built "chin turret" directly below the bombardier's accommodation, and twin 50 caliber (12.7 mm) guns in each of the waist positions. The ammunition load was over 11,000 rounds. All of these modifications made the YB-40 well over 10000 lb heavier than a fully loaded B-17F. The YB-40s with their greater weight, had trouble keeping up with the lighter bombers once they had dropped their bombs, so the project was abandoned and finally phased out in July 1943. The final production blocks of the B-17F from Douglas' plants did, however, adopt the YB-40's "chin turret", giving them a much-improved forward defense capability.

By the time the definitive B-17G appeared, the number of guns had been increased from seven to 13, the designs of the gun stations were finalized, and other adjustments were completed. The B-17G was the final version of the Flying Fortress, incorporating all changes made to its predecessor, the B-17F, and in total, 8,680 were built, the last (by Lockheed) on 28 July 1945. Many B-17Gs were converted for other missions such as cargo hauling, engine testing, and reconnaissance. Initially designated SB-17G, a number of B-17Gs were also converted for search-and-rescue duties, later to be redesignated B-17H.

Late in World War II, at least 25 B-17s were fitted with radio controls and television cameras, loaded with 20000 lb of high explosives and designated BQ-7 "Aphrodite missiles" for Operation Aphrodite against bombing-resistant German bunkers. The operation, which involved remotely flying the Aphrodite drones onto their targets by accompanying CQ-17 "mothership" control aircraft, was approved on 26 June 1944, and assigned to the 388th Bombardment Group stationed at RAF Fersfield, a satellite of RAF Knettishall.

The first four drones were sent to Mimoyecques (V-3 site), the Siracourt V-1 bunker, and the V-2 Blockhaus d'Éperlecques at Watten, and La Coupole at Wizernes on 4 August, causing little damage and two pilots were killed. On August 12, a Consolidated B-24 Liberator, part of the United States Navy's contribution ("Project Anvil"), en route for Heligoland piloted by Lieutenant Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. (future U.S. president John F. Kennedy's elder brother) exploded over the Blyth estuary. Blast damage was caused over a radius of 5 mi. Naval flights stopped but a few more missions were flown by the USAAF. The Aphrodite project was effectively scrapped in early 1945.

Operational history

The B-17 began operations in World War II with the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1941, and in the Southwest Pacific with the U.S. Army.

During World War II, the B-17 equipped 32 overseas combat groups, inventory peaking in August 1944 at 4,574 USAAF aircraft worldwide. The British heavy bombers, the Avro Lancaster and Handley Page Halifax, dropped 608,612 long tons (681,645 short tons) and 224,207 long tons (251,112 short tons) respectively.

RAF use
The RAF entered World War II without a sufficient supply of modern heavy bombers, with the largest available long-range medium bombers in any numbers being the Vickers Wellington, which could carry 4500 lb of bombs. While the Short Stirling and Handley Page Halifax became its primary bombers by 1941, in early 1940, the RAF agreed with the U.S. Army Air Corps to acquire 20 B-17Cs, which were given the service name Fortress Mk.I. Their first operation, against Wilhelmshaven on 8 July 1941 was unsuccessful. On 24 July three B-17s of 90 Squadron took part in a raid on the German capital ship Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen anchored in Brest from 30000 ft, to draw German fighters away from 18 Handley Page Hampdens attacking at lower altitudes, and in time for 79 Vickers Wellingtons to attack later with the German fighters refueling. The operation did not work as expected, with 90 Squadron's Fortresses being unopposed.

By September, the RAF had lost eight B-17Cs in combat and had experienced numerous mechanical problems, and Bomber Command abandoned daylight bombing raids using the Fortress I because of the aircraft's poor performance. The experience showed both the RAF and USAAF that the B-17C was not ready for combat, and that improved defenses, larger bomb loads, and more accurate bombing methods were required. However, the USAAF continued using the B-17 as a day bomber, despite misgivings by the RAF that attempts at daylight bombing would be ineffective.

As use by Bomber Command had been curtailed, the RAF transferred its remaining Fortress Mk.I aircraft to Coastal Command for use as a long-range maritime patrol aircraft. These were augmented starting in July 1942 by 45 Fortress Mk.IIA (B-17E) followed by 19 Fortress Mk II (B-17F) and three Fortress Mk III (B-17G). A Fortress IIA from No. 206 Squadron RAF sank U-627 on 27 October 1942, the first of 11 U-boat kills credited to RAF Fortress bombers during the war.

As sufficient Consolidated Liberators finally became available, Coastal Command withdrew the Fortress from the Azores, transferring the type to the meteorological reconnaissance role. Three squadrons undertook Met profiles from airfields in Iceland, Scotland, and England, gathering data for vital weather forecasting purposes.

The RAF's No. 223 Squadron, as part of 100 Group, operated several Fortresses equipped with an electronic warfare system known as "Airborne Cigar" (ABC). This was operated by German-speaking radio operators to identify and jam German ground controllers' broadcasts to their nightfighters. They could also pose as ground controllers themselves to steer nightfighters away from the bomber streams.

Initial USAAF operations over Europe

The air corps – renamed United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) on 20 June 1941 – used the B-17 and other bombers to bomb from high altitudes with the aid of the then-secret Norden bombsight, known as the "Blue Ox", which was an optical electromechanical gyrostabilized analog computer. The device was able to determine, from variables put in by the bombardier, the point at which the bombs should be released to hit the target. The bombardier essentially took over flight control of the aircraft during the bomb run, maintaining a level altitude during the final moments before release.

The USAAF began building up its air forces in Europe using B-17Es soon after entering the war. The first Eighth Air Force units arrived in High Wycombe, England, on 12 May 1942, to form the 97th Bomb Group. On 17 August 1942, 12 B-17Es of the 97th, with the lead aircraft piloted by Major Paul Tibbets and carrying Brigadier General Ira Eaker as an observer, were close escorted by four squadrons of RAF Spitfire IXs (and a further five squadrons of Spitfire Vs to cover the withdrawal) on the first USAAF heavy bomber raid over Europe, against the large railroad marshalling yards at Rouen-Sotteville in France, while a further six aircraft flew a diversionary raid along the French coast. The operation, carried out in good visibility, was a success, with only minor damage to one aircraft, unrelated to enemy action, and half the bombs landing in the target area. The raid helped allay British doubts about the capabilities of American heavy bombers in operations over Europe.

Two additional groups arrived in Britain at the same time, bringing with them the first B-17Fs, which served as the primary AAF heavy bomber fighting the Germans until September 1943. As the raids of the American bombing campaign grew in numbers and frequency, German interception efforts grew in strength (such as during the attempted bombing of Kiel on 13 June 1943 ), such that unescorted bombing missions came to be discouraged.

Combined offensive

The two different strategies of the American and British bomber commands were organized at the Casablanca Conference in January 1943. The resulting "Combined Bomber Offensive" weakened the Wehrmacht, destroyed German morale, and established air superiority through Operation Pointblank's destruction of German fighter strength in preparation for a ground offensive. The USAAF bombers attacked by day, with British operations – chiefly against industrial cities – by night.

Operation Pointblank opened with attacks on targets in Western Europe. General Ira C. Eaker and the Eighth Air Force placed highest priority on attacks on the German aircraft industry, especially fighter assembly plants, engine factories, and ball-bearing manufacturers. Attacks began in April 1943 on heavily fortified key industrial plants in Bremen and Recklinghausen.

Since the airfield bombings were not appreciably reducing German fighter strength, additional B-17 groups were formed, and Eaker ordered major missions deeper into Germany against important industrial targets. The 8th Air Force then targeted the ball-bearing factories in Schweinfurt, hoping to cripple the war effort there. The first raid on 17 August 1943 did not result in critical damage to the factories, with the 230 attacking B-17s being intercepted by an estimated 300 Luftwaffe fighters. The Germans shot down 36 aircraft with the loss of 200 men, and coupled with a raid earlier in the day against Regensburg, a total of 60 B-17s were lost that day.

A second attempt on Schweinfurt on 14 October 1943 later came to be known as "Black Thursday". While the attack was successful at disrupting the entire works, severely curtailing work there for the remainder of the war, it was at an extreme cost. Of the 291 attacking Fortresses, 60 were shot down over Germany, five crashed on approach to Britain, and 12 more were scrapped due to damage – a loss of 77 B-17s. Additionally, 122 bombers were damaged and needed repairs before their next flights. Of 2,900 men in the crews, about 650 did not return, although some survived as prisoners of war. Only 33 bombers landed without damage. These losses were a result of concentrated attacks by over 300 German fighters.

Such high losses of aircrews could not be sustained, and the USAAF, recognizing the vulnerability of heavy bombers to interceptors when operating alone, suspended daylight bomber raids deep into Germany until the development of an escort fighter that could protect the bombers all the way from the United Kingdom to Germany and back. At the same time, the German nightfighting ability noticeably improved to counter the nighttime strikes, challenging the conventional faith in the cover of darkness. The 8th Air Force alone lost 176 bombers in October 1943, and was to suffer similar casualties on 11 January 1944 on missions to Oschersleben, Halberstadt, and Brunswick. Lieutenant General James Doolittle, commander of the 8th, had ordered the second Schweinfurt mission to be cancelled as the weather deteriorated, but the lead units had already entered hostile air space and continued with the mission. Most of the escorts turned back or missed the rendezvous, and as a result, 60 B-17s were destroyed.

A third raid on Schweinfurt on 24 February 1944 highlighted what came to be known as "Big Week", during which the bombing missions were directed against German aircraft production. German fighters needed to respond, and the North American P-51 Mustang and Republic P-47 Thunderbolt fighters (equipped with improved drop tanks to extend their range) accompanying the American heavies all the way to and from the targets engaged them. The escort fighters reduced the loss rate to below 7%, with a total of 247 B-17s lost in 3,500 sorties while taking part in the Big Week raids.

By September 1944, 27 of the 42 bomb groups of the 8th Air Force and six of the 21 groups of the 15th Air Force used B-17s. Losses to flak continued to take a high toll of heavy bombers through 1944, but the war in Europe was being won by the Allies. And by 27 April 1945, 2 days after the last heavy bombing mission in Europe, the rate of aircraft loss was so low that replacement aircraft were no longer arriving and the number of bombers per bomb group was reduced. The Combined Bomber Offensive was effectively complete.

Pacific Theater

On 7 December 1941, a group of 12 B-17s of the 38th (four B-17C) and 88th (eight B-17E) Reconnaissance Squadrons, en route to reinforce the Philippines, was flown into Pearl Harbor from Hamilton Field, California, arriving while the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was going on. Leonard "Smitty" Smith Humiston, co-pilot on First Lieutenant Robert H. Richards' B-17C, AAF S/N 40-2049, reported that he thought the U.S. Navy was giving the flight a 21-gun salute to celebrate the arrival of the bombers, after which he realized that Pearl Harbor was under attack. The Fortress came under fire from Japanese fighter aircraft, though the crew was unharmed with the exception of one member who suffered an abrasion on his hand. Japanese activity forced them to divert from Hickam Field to Bellows Field. On landing, the aircraft overran the runway and ran into a ditch, where it was then strafed. Although initially deemed repairable, 40-2049 (11th BG / 38th RS) received more than 200 bullet holes and never flew again. Ten of the 12 Fortresses survived the attack.

By 1941, the Far East Air Force (FEAF) based at Clark Field in the Philippines had 35 B-17s, with the War Department eventually planning to raise that to 165. When the FEAF received word of the attack on Pearl Harbor, General Lewis H. Brereton sent his bombers and fighters on various patrol missions to prevent them from being caught on the ground. Brereton planned B-17 raids on Japanese airfields in Formosa, in accordance with Rainbow 5 war plan directives, but this was overruled by General Douglas MacArthur. A series of disputed discussions and decisions, followed by several confusing and false reports of air attacks, delayed the authorization of the sortie. By the time the B-17s and escorting Curtiss P-40 Warhawk fighters were about to get airborne, they were destroyed by Japanese bombers of the 11th Air Fleet. The FEAF lost half its aircraft during the first strike, and was all but destroyed over the next few days.

Another early World War II Pacific engagement, on 10 December 1941, involved Colin Kelly, who reportedly crashed his B-17 into the Japanese battleship Haruna, which was later acknowledged as a near bomb miss on the heavy cruiser Ashigara. Nonetheless, this deed made him a celebrated war hero. Kelly's B-17C AAF S/N 40-2045 (19th BG / 30th BS) crashed about 6 mi from Clark Field after he held the burning Fortress steady long enough for the surviving crew to bail out. Kelly was posthumously awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. Noted Japanese ace Saburō Sakai is credited with this kill, and in the process, came to respect the ability of the Fortress to absorb punishment.

B-17s were used in early battles of the Pacific with little success, notably the Battle of Coral Sea and Battle of Midway. While there, the Fifth Air Force B-17s were tasked with disrupting the Japanese sea lanes. Air Corps doctrine dictated bombing runs from high altitude, but they soon found only 1% of their bombs hit targets. However, B-17s were operating at heights too great for most A6M Zero fighters to reach.

The B-17's greatest success in the Pacific was in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, in which aircraft of this type were responsible for damaging and sinking several Japanese transport ships. On 2 March 1943, six B-17s of the 64th Squadron flying at 10000 ft attacked a major Japanese troop convoy off New Guinea, using skip bombing to sink SS Kyokusei Maru, which carried 1,200 army troops, and damage two other transports, Teiyo Maru and Nojima. On 3 March 1943, 13 B-17s flying at 7000 ft bombed the convoy, forcing the convoy to disperse and reducing the concentration of their anti-aircraft defenses. The B-17s attracted a number of Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters, which were in turn attacked by the P-38 Lightning escorts. One B-17 broke up in the air, and its crew was forced to take to their parachutes. Japanese fighter pilots machine-gunned some of the B-17 crew members as they descended and attacked others in the water after they landed. Five of the Japanese fighters strafing the B-17 aircrew were promptly engaged and shot down by three Lightnings, though these were also then lost. The allied fighter pilots claimed 15 Zeros destroyed, while the B-17 crews claimed five more. Actual Japanese fighter losses for the day were seven destroyed and three damaged. The remaining seven transports and three of the eight destroyers were then sunk by a combination of low level strafing runs by Royal Australian Air Force Beaufighters, and skip bombing by USAAF North American B-25 Mitchells at 100 ft, while B-17s claimed five hits from higher altitudes. On the morning of 4 March 1943, a B-17 sank the destroyer Asashio with a 500 lb bomb while she was picking up survivors from Arashio.

At their peak, 168 B-17 bombers were in the Pacific theater in September 1942, but already in mid-1942 Gen. Arnold had decided that the B-17 was unsuitable for the kind of operations required in the Pacific and made plans to replace all of the B-17s in the theater with B-24s (and later, B-29s) as soon as they became available. Although the conversion was not complete until mid-1943, B-17 combat operations in the Pacific theater came to an end after a little over a year. Surviving aircraft were reassigned to the 54th Troop Carrier Wing's special airdrop section and were used to drop supplies to ground forces operating in close contact with the enemy. Special airdrop B-17s supported Australian commandos operating near the Japanese stronghold at Rabaul, which had been the primary B-17 target in 1942 and early 1943.

B-17s were still used in the Pacific later in the war, however, mainly in the combat search and rescue role. A number of B-17Gs, redesignated B-17Hs and later SB-17Gs, were used in the Pacific during the final year of the war to carry and drop lifeboats to stranded bomber crews who had been shot down or crashed at sea. These aircraft were nicknamed Dumbos, and remained in service for many years after the end of World War II.

Bomber defense
Before the advent of long-range fighter escorts, B-17s had only their .50 caliber M2 Browning machine guns to rely on for defense during the bombing runs over Europe. As the war intensified, Boeing used feedback from aircrews to improve each new variant with increased armament and armor. Defensive armament increased from four 0.50 in machine guns and one 0.30 in nose machine gun in the B-17C, to thirteen 0.50 in machine guns in the B-17G. But because the bombers could not maneuver when attacked by fighters and needed to be flown straight and level during their final bomb run, individual aircraft struggled to fend off a direct attack.

A 1943 survey by the USAAF found that over half the bombers shot down by the Germans had left the protection of the main formation. To address this problem, the United States developed the bomb-group formation, which evolved into the staggered combat box formation in which all the B-17s could safely cover any others in their formation with their machine guns. This made a formation of bombers a dangerous target to engage by enemy fighters. In order to more quickly form these formations, assembly ships, planes with distinctive paint schemes, were utilized to guide bombers into formation, saving assembly time. Luftwaffe fighter pilots likened attacking a B-17 combat box formation to encountering a fliegendes Stachelschwein, "flying porcupine", with dozens of machine guns in a combat box aimed at them from almost every direction. However, the use of this rigid formation meant that individual aircraft could not engage in evasive maneuvers: they had to fly constantly in a straight line, which made them vulnerable to German flak. Moreover, German fighter aircraft later developed the tactic of high-speed strafing passes rather than engaging with individual aircraft to inflict damage with minimum risk. As a result, the B-17s' loss rate was up to 25% on some early missions. It was not until the advent of long-range fighter escorts (particularly the P-51 Mustang) and the resulting degradation of the Luftwaffe as an effective interceptor force between February and June 1944, that the B-17 became strategically potent.

The B-17 was noted for its ability to absorb battle damage, still reach its target and bring its crew home safely. Wally Hoffman, a B-17 pilot with the Eighth Air Force during World War II, said, "The plane can be cut and slashed almost to pieces by enemy fire and bring its crew home." Martin Caidin reported one instance in which a B-17 suffered a midair collision with a Focke-Wulf Fw 190, losing an engine and suffering serious damage to both the starboard horizontal stabilizer and the vertical stabilizer, and being knocked out of formation by the impact. The B-17 was reported as shot down by observers, but it survived and brought its crew home without injury. Its toughness was compensation for its shorter range and lighter bomb load compared to the B-24 and British Avro Lancaster heavy bombers. Stories circulated of B-17s returning to base with tails shredded, engines destroyed and large portions of their wings destroyed by flak. This durability, together with the large operational numbers in the Eighth Air Force and the fame achieved by the Memphis Belle, made the B-17 a key bomber aircraft of the war. Other factors such as combat effectiveness and political issues also contributed to the B-17's success.

The B-17 adopted early electronic countermeasures, such as Window and Carpet to confuse German radar. This greatly reduced the effectiveness of German Flak, by perhaps as much as 75%, meaning that 450 bombers were saved by these technologies.

Luftwaffe attacks
After examining wrecked B-17s and B-24s, Luftwaffe officers discovered that on average it took about 20 hits with 20 mm shells fired from the rear to bring them down. Pilots of average ability hit the bombers with only about two percent of the rounds they fired, so to obtain 20 hits, the average pilot had to fire one thousand 20 mm rounds at a bomber. Early versions of the Fw 190, one of the best German interceptor fighters, were equipped with two 20 mm MG FF cannons, which carried only 500 rounds when belt-fed (normally using 60-round drum magazines in earlier installations), and later with the better Mauser MG 151/20 cannons, which had a longer effective range than the MG FF weapon. Later versions carried four or even six MG 151/20 cannon and twin 13 mm machine guns. The German fighters found that when attacking from the front, where fewer defensive guns were mounted (and where the pilot was exposed and not protected by armor as he was from the rear), it took only four or five hits to bring a bomber down.

To rectify the Fw 190's shortcomings, the number of cannons fitted was doubled to four, with a corresponding increase in the amount of ammunition carried, creating the Sturmbock bomber destroyer version. This type replaced the vulnerable twin-engine Zerstörer heavy fighters which could not survive interception by P-51 Mustangs flying well ahead of the combat boxes in an air supremacy role starting very early in 1944 to clear any Luftwaffe defensive fighters from the skies. By 1944, a further upgrade to Rheinmetall-Borsig's 30 mm MK 108 cannons mounted either in the wing, or in underwing, conformal mount gun pods, was made for the Sturmbock Focke-Wulfs as either the /R2 or /R8 field modification kits, enabling aircraft to bring a bomber down with just a few hits.

The adoption of the 21 cm Nebelwerfer-derived Werfer-Granate 21 (Wfr. Gr. 21) rocket mortar by the Luftwaffe in mid-August 1943 promised the introduction of a major "stand-off" style of offensive weapon – one strut-mounted tubular launcher was fixed under each wing panel on the Luftwaffe's single-engine fighters, and two under each wing panel of a few twin-engine Bf 110 daylight Zerstörer aircraft. However, due to the slow 715 mph velocity and characteristic ballistic drop of the fired rocket (despite the usual mounting of the launcher at about 15° upward orientation), and the small number of fighters fitted with the weapons, the Wfr. Gr. 21 never had a major effect on the combat box formations of Fortresses. The Luftwaffe also fitted heavy-caliber Bordkanone-series 37, 50 and even 75 mm cannon as anti-bomber weapons on twin-engine aircraft such as the special Ju 88P fighters, as well as one model of the Me 410 Hornisse but these measures did not have much effect on the American strategic bomber offensive. The Me 262, however, had moderate success against the B-17 late in the war. With its usual nose-mounted armament of four MK 108 cannons, and with some examples later equipped with the R4M rocket, launched from underwing racks, it could fire from outside the range of the bombers' .50 in defensive guns and bring an aircraft down with one hit, as both the MK 108's shells and the R4M's warheads were filled with the "shattering" force of the strongly brisant Hexogen military explosive.

Luftwaffe-captured B-17s

During World War II approximately 40 B-17s were captured and refurbished by Germany after crash-landing or being forced down, with about a dozen put back into the air. Given German Balkenkreuz national markings on their wings and fuselage sides, and swastika tail fin–flashes, the captured B-17s were used to determine the B-17's vulnerabilities and to train German interceptor pilots in attack tactics. Others, with the cover designations Dornier Do 200 and Do 288, were used as long-range transports by the Kampfgeschwader 200 special duties unit, carrying out agent drops and supplying secret airstrips in the Middle East and North Africa. They were chosen specifically for these missions as being more suitable for this role than other available German aircraft; they never attempted to deceive the Allies and always wore full Luftwaffe markings. One B-17 of KG200, bearing the Luftwaffe's KG 200 Geschwaderkennung (combat wing code) markings A3+FB, was interned by Spain when it landed at Valencia airfield, 27 June 1944, remaining there for the rest of the war. It has been alleged that some B-17s kept their Allied markings and were used by the Luftwaffe in attempts to infiltrate B-17 bombing formations and report on their positions and altitudes. According to these allegations, the practice was initially successful, but Army Air Force combat aircrews quickly developed and established standard procedures to first warn off, and then fire upon any "stranger" trying to join a group's formation.

Soviet-interned B-17s
The U.S. did not offer B-17s to the Soviet Union as part of its war materiel assistance program, but at least 73 aircraft were acquired by the Soviet Air Force. These aircraft had landed with mechanical trouble during the shuttle bombing raids over Germany or had been damaged by a Luftwaffe raid in Poltava. The Soviets restored 23 to flying condition and concentrated them in the 890th Bomber Regiment of the 45th Bomber Aviation Division, but they never saw combat. In 1946 (or 1947, according to Holm), the regiment was assigned to the Kazan factory (moving from Baranovichi) to help the Soviet effort to reproduce the more advanced Boeing B-29 as the Tupolev Tu-4.

Swiss-interned B-17s
During the Allied bomber offensive, U.S. and British bombers sometimes flew into Swiss airspace, either because they were damaged or, on rare occasions, accidentally bombing Swiss cities. Swiss aircraft attempted to intercept and force individual aircraft to land, interning their crews; one Swiss pilot was killed, shot down by a U.S. bomber crew in September 1944.

Official Swiss records identify 6,501 airspace violations during the course of the war, with 198 foreign aircraft landing on Swiss territory and 56 aircraft crashing there. In October 1943, the Swiss interned Boeing B-17F-25-VE, tail number 25841, and its U.S. flight crew after the Flying Fortress developed engine trouble after a raid over Germany and was forced to land. The aircraft was turned over to the Swiss Air Force, who then flew the bomber until the end of the war, using other interned but non-airworthy B-17s for spare parts. The bomber's topside surfaces were repainted a dark olive drab, but retained its light gray under wing and lower fuselage surfaces. It carried Swiss national white cross insignia in red squares on both sides of its rudder, fuselage sides, and on the topside and underside wings. The B-17F also carried light gray flash letters "RD" and "I" on either side of the fuselage's Swiss national insignia.

Japanese-captured B-17s

In 1942, Japanese technicians and mechanics rebuilt three damaged B-17s, one "D" and two "E" series, using parts salvaged from abandoned B-17 wrecks in the Philippines and the Java East Indies. The three bombers, which still contained their top-secret Norden bombsights, were ferried to Japan where they underwent extensive technical evaluation by the Giken, the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force's Air Technical Research Institute (Koku Gijutsu Kenkyujo) at Tachikawa's air field. The "D" model, later deemed an obsolescent design, was used in Japanese training and propaganda films. The two "E"s were used to develop air combat tactics for use against B-17s; they were also used as enemy aircraft in pilot and crew training films. One of the two "E"s was photographed late in the war by U. S. aerial recon. It was code-named "Tachikawa 105" after the mystery aircraft's wingspan (104 feet) but not correctly identified as a captured B-17 until after the war. No traces of the three captured Flying Fortresses were ever found in Japan by Allied occupation forces. The bombers were assumed either lost by various means or scrapped late in the war for their vital war materials.

U.S. Air Force

After World War II, the B-17 was quickly phased out of use as a bomber and the Army Air Forces retired most of its fleet. Flight crews ferried the bombers back across the Atlantic to the United States where the majority were sold for scrap and melted down, although many remained in use in second-line roles such as VIP transports, air-sea rescue and photo-reconnaissance. Strategic Air Command (SAC), established in 1946, used reconnaissance B-17s (at first called F-9 [F for Fotorecon], later RB-17) until 1949.

The USAF Air Rescue Service of the Military Air Transport Service (MATS) operated B-17s as so-called "Dumbo" air-sea rescue aircraft. Work on using B-17s to carry airborne lifeboats had begun in 1943, but they entered service in the European theater only in February 1945. They were also used to provide search and rescue support for B-29 raids against Japan. About 130 B-17s were converted to the air-sea rescue role, at first designated B-17H and later SB-17G. Some SB-17s had their defensive guns removed, while others retained their guns to allow use close to combat areas. The SB-17 served through the Korean War, remaining in service with USAF until the mid-1950s.

In 1946, surplus B-17s were chosen as drone aircraft for atmospheric sampling during the Operation Crossroads atomic bomb tests, being able to fly close to or even through the mushroom clouds without endangering a crew. This led to more widespread conversion of B-17s as drones and drone control aircraft, both for further use in atomic testing and as targets for testing surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles. One hundred and seven B-17s were converted to drones. The last operational mission flown by a USAF Fortress was conducted on 6 August 1959, when a DB-17P, serial 44-83684 , directed a QB-17G, out of Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico, as a target for an AIM-4 Falcon air-to-air missile fired from a McDonnell F-101 Voodoo. A retirement ceremony was held several days later at Holloman AFB, after which 44-83684 was retired. It was subsequently used in various films and in the 1960s television show 12 O'Clock High before being retired to the Planes of Fame aviation museum in Chino, California. Perhaps the most famous B-17, the Memphis Belle, has been restored – with the B-17D The Swoose under way – to her World War II wartime appearance by the National Museum of the United States Air Force at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.

U.S. Navy and Coast Guard

During the last year of World War II and shortly thereafter, the United States Navy (USN) acquired 48 ex-USAAF B-17s for patrol and air-sea rescue work. The first two ex-USAAF B-17s, a B-17F (later modified to B-17G standard) and a B-17G were obtained by the Navy for various development programs. At first, these aircraft operated under their original USAAF designations, but on 31 July 1945 they were assigned the naval aircraft designation PB-1, a designation which had originally been used in 1925 for the Boeing Model 50 experimental flying boat.

Thirty-two B-17Gs were used by the Navy under the designation PB-1W, the suffix -W indicating an airborne early warning role. A large radome for an S-band AN/APS-20 search radar was fitted underneath the fuselage and additional internal fuel tanks were added for longer range, with the provision for additional underwing fuel tanks. Originally, the B-17 was also chosen because of its heavy defensive armament, but this was later removed. These aircraft were painted dark blue, the standard Navy paint scheme which had been adopted in late 1944. PB-1Ws continued in USN service until 1955, gradually being phased out in favor of the Lockheed WV-2 (known in the USAF as the EC-121, a designation adopted by the USN in 1962), a military version of the Lockheed 1049 Constellation commercial airliner.

In July 1945, 16 B-17s were transferred to the Coast Guard via the Navy; these aircraft were initially assigned U.S. Navy Bureau Numbers (BuNo), but were delivered to the Coast Guard designated as PB-1Gs beginning in July 1946. Coast Guard PB-1Gs were stationed at a number of bases in the U.S. and Newfoundland, with five at Coast Guard Air Station Elizabeth City, North Carolina, two at CGAS San Francisco, two at NAS Argentia, Newfoundland, one at CGAS Kodiak, Alaska, and one in Washington state. They were used primarily in the "Dumbo" air-sea rescue role, but were also used for iceberg patrol duties and for photo mapping. The Coast Guard PB-1Gs served throughout the 1950s, the last example not being withdrawn from service until 14 October 1959.

Special operations
B-17s were used by the CIA front companies Civil Air Transport, Air America and Intermountain Aviation for special missions. These included B-17G 44-85531, registered as N809Z. These aircraft were primarily used for agent drop missions over the People's Republic of China, flying from Taiwan, with Taiwanese crews. Four B-17s were shot down in these operations.

In 1957 the surviving B-17s had been stripped of all weapons and painted black. One of these Taiwan-based B-17s was flown to Clark Air Base in the Philippines in mid-September, assigned for covert missions into Tibet.

On 28 May 1962, N809Z, piloted by Connie Seigrist and Douglas Price, flew Major James Smith, USAF and Lieutenant Leonard A. LeSchack, USNR to the abandoned Soviet arctic ice station NP 8, as Operation Coldfeet. Smith and LeSchack parachuted from the B-17 and searched the station for several days. On 1 June, Seigrist and Price returned and picked up Smith and LeSchack using a Fulton Skyhook system installed on the B-17. N809Z was used to perform a Skyhook pick up in the James Bond movie Thunderball in 1965. This aircraft, now restored to its original B-17G configuration, was on display in the Evergreen Aviation & Space Museum in McMinnville, Oregon until it was sold to the Collings Foundation in 2015.

Operators

The B-17, a versatile aircraft, served in dozens of USAAF units in theaters of combat throughout World War II, and in other roles for the RAF. Its main use was in Europe, where its shorter range and smaller bombload relative to other aircraft did not hamper it as much as in the Pacific Theater. Peak USAAF inventory (in August 1944) was 4,574 worldwide.

 * 🇧🇷 Brazil
 * 🇨🇦 Canada
 * 🇫🇷 France
 * 🇮🇷 Iran
 * 🇲🇽 Mexico
 * 🇳🇮 Nicaragua
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa
 * Soviet Union
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇫🇷 France
 * 🇮🇷 Iran
 * 🇲🇽 Mexico
 * 🇳🇮 Nicaragua
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa
 * Soviet Union
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa
 * Soviet Union
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇺🇸 United States
 * 🇺🇸 United States

Surviving aircraft, lost survivors, and wrecks
Of the more than 12,000 B-17 made, six were known to be in flying as of 2023. There are about 40 B-17 in collections in the United States, and overall about 46 globally.

There are also nearly complete or partially complete B-17 wrecks that have been discovered, and an example of this is a B-17F that ditched in the Pacific on 11 July 1943, but it was discovered in 1986.

Destroyed survivors
Three B-17s that survived and were restored as warbirds have been destroyed in accidents, as listed in the below table. Additionally, 44-85734 (still listed in the table of survivors) sustained significant fire damage following a forced landing on 13 June 2011 requiring longterm repair work that has yet to be completed.

Fortresses as a symbol

The B-17 Flying Fortress became symbolic of the United States of America's air power. In a 1943 Consolidated Aircraft poll of 2,500 men in cities where Consolidated advertisements had been run in newspapers, 73% had heard of the B-24 and 90% knew of the B-17.

After the first Y1B-17s were delivered to the Army Air Corps 2nd Bombardment Group, they were used on flights to promote their long range and navigational capabilities. In January 1938, group commander Colonel Robert Olds flew a Y1B-17 from the U.S. east coast to the west coast, setting a transcontinental record of 13 hours 27 minutes. He also broke the west-to-east coast record on the return trip, averaging 245 mi/h in 11 hours 1 minute. Six bombers of the 2nd Bombardment Group took off from Langley Field on 15 February 1938 as part of a goodwill flight to Buenos Aires, Argentina. Covering 12000 mi they returned on 27 February, with seven aircraft setting off on a flight to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, three days later. In a well-publicized mission on 12 May of the same year, three Y1B-17s "intercepted" and took photographs of the Italian ocean liner SS Rex 610 mi off the Atlantic coast.

Many pilots who flew both the B-17 and the B-24 preferred the B-17 for its greater stability and ease in formation flying. The electrical systems were less vulnerable to damage than the B-24's hydraulics, and the B-17 was easier to fly than a B-24 when missing an engine. During the war, the largest offensive bombing force, the Eighth Air Force, had an open preference for the B-17. Lieutenant General Jimmy Doolittle wrote about his preference for equipping the Eighth with B-17s, citing the logistical advantage in keeping field forces down to a minimum number of aircraft types with their individual servicing and spares. For this reason, he wanted B-17 bombers and P-51 fighters for the Eighth. His views were supported by Eighth Air Force statisticians, whose mission studies showed that the Flying Fortress's utility and survivability was much greater than those of the B-24 Liberator. Making it back to base on numerous occasions, despite extensive battle damage, the B-17's durability became legendary; stories and photos of B-17s surviving battle damage were widely circulated during the war. Despite an inferior performance and smaller bombload than the more numerous B-24 Liberators, a survey of Eighth Air Force crews showed a much higher rate of satisfaction with the B-17.

Notable B-17s

 * All American – This B-17F survived having her tail almost cut off in a mid-air collision with a Bf 109 over Tunisia but returned safely to base in Algeria.
 * Chief Seattle – sponsored by the city of Seattle, she disappeared (MIA) on 14 August 1942 flying a recon mission for the 19th BG, 435th BS and the crew declared dead on 7 December 1945.
 * Hell's Kitchen – B-17F 41-24392 was one of only three early B-17F's in 414th BS to complete more than 100 combat missions.
 * Mary Ann – a B-17D that was part of an unarmed flight which left Hamilton Air Field, Novato, California on 6 December 1941 en route to Hickam Field in Hawaii, arriving during the attack on Pearl Harbor. The plane and her crew were immediately forced into action on Wake Island and in the Philippines during the outbreak of World War II. She became famous when her exploits were featured in Air Force, one of the first of the patriotic war films released in 1943.
 * Memphis Belle – one of the first B-17s to complete a tour of duty of 25 missions in the 8th Air Force and the subject of a feature film, now completely restored and on display since 17 May 2018 at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio.
 * Milk Wagon - B-17G. Over the course of its tour of duty, Milk Wagon set a record in the 3rd Division, possibly the war, for 129 missions without aborting for mechanical failure.
 * Miss Every Morning Fix'n – B-17C. Previously named 'Pamela'. Stationed in Mackay, Queensland, Australia during World War II. On 14 June 1943, crashed shortly after takeoff from Mackay while ferrying U.S. forces personnel back to Port Moresby, with 40 of the 41 people on board killed. It remains the worst air disaster in Australian history. The sole survivor, Foye Roberts, married an Australian and returned to the States. He died in Wichita Falls, Texas, on 4 February 2004.
 * Murder Inc. – A B-17 bombardier wearing the name of the B-17 "Murder Inc." on his jacket was used for propaganda in German newspapers.
 * Old 666 – B-17E flown by the most highly decorated crew in the Pacific Theater
 * Royal Flush – B-17F 42-6087 from the 100th Bomb Group and commanded on one mission by highly decorated USAAF officer Robert Rosenthal, she was the lone surviving 100th BG B-17 of 10 October 1943 raid against Münster to return to the unit's base at RAF Thorpe Abbotts.
 * Sir Baboon McGoon – B-17F featured in the June 1944 issue of Popular Science magazine and the 1945 issue of Flying magazine. Articles discuss mobile recovery crews following October 1943 belly landing at Tannington, England.
 * The Swoose – Initially nicknamed Ole Betsy while in service, The Swoose is the only remaining intact B-17D, built in 1940, the oldest surviving Flying Fortress, and the only surviving B-17 to have seen action in the Philippines campaign (1941–1942); she is in the collection of the National Air and Space Museum and is being restored for final display at the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, Ohio. The Swoose was flown by Frank Kurtz, father of actress Swoosie Kurtz, who named his daughter after the bomber.
 * Ye Olde Pub – A highly damaged B-17 piloted by Charlie Brown that was not shot down by Franz Stigler, as memorialized in the painting A Higher Call by John D. Shaw.
 * 5 Grand – 5,000th B-17 made, emblazoned with Boeing employee signatures, served with the 333rd Bomb Squadron, 96th Bomb Group in Europe. Damaged and repaired after gear-up landing, transferred to 388th Bomb Group. Returned from duty following V-E Day, flown for war bonds tour, then stored at Kingman, Arizona. Following an unsuccessful bid for museum preservation, the aircraft was scrapped.

Medal of Honor recipients
Many B-17 crew members received military honors and 17 received the Medal of Honor, the highest military decoration awarded by the United States:
 * Brigadier General Frederick Castle (flying as co-pilot) – awarded posthumously for remaining at controls so others could escape damaged aircraft.
 * 2nd Lt Robert Femoyer (navigator) – awarded posthumously
 * 1st Lt Donald J. Gott (pilot) – awarded posthumously
 * 2nd Lt David R. Kingsley (bombardier) – awarded posthumously for tending to injured crew and giving up his parachute to another
 * 1st Lt William R. Lawley Jr. – "heroism and exceptional flying skill"
 * Sgt Archibald Mathies (engineer-gunner) – awarded posthumously
 * 1st Lt Jack W. Mathis (bombardier) – posthumously, the first airman in the European theater to be awarded the Medal of Honor
 * 2nd Lt William E. Metzger Jr. (co-pilot) – awarded posthumously
 * 1st Lt Edward Michael
 * 1st Lt John C. Morgan
 * Capt Harl Pease (awarded posthumously)
 * 2nd Lt Joseph Sarnoski (awarded posthumously)
 * S/Sgt Maynard H. Smith (gunner)
 * 1st Lt Walter E. Truemper (awarded posthumously)
 * T/Sgt Forrest L. Vosler (radio operator)
 * Brigadier General Kenneth Walker Commanding officer of V Bomber Command, killed while leading small force in raid on Rabaul – awarded posthumously
 * Maj Jay Zeamer Jr. (pilot) – earned on unescorted reconnaissance mission in Pacific, same mission as Sarnoski

Other military achievements or events

 * Lincoln Broyhill (1925–2008), tail-gunner on a B-17 in the 483rd Bombardment Group. He received a Distinguished Unit Citation and set two individual records in a single day: (1) most German jets destroyed by a single gunner in one mission (two), and (2) most German jets destroyed by a single gunner during the entirety of World War II.
 * Allison C. Brooks (1917–2006), a B-17 pilot who was awarded numerous military decorations and was ultimately promoted to the rank of major general and served in active duty until 1971.
 * 1st Lt Eugene Emond (1921–1998): Lead pilot for Man O War II Horsepower Limited. Received the Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal with three oak leaf clusters, American Theater Ribbon and Victory Ribbon. Was part of D-Day and witnessed one of the first German jets when a Me 262A-1a flew through his formation over Germany. One of the youngest bomber pilots in the U.S. Army Air Forces.
 * Immanuel J. Klette (1918–1988): Second-generation German-American whose 91 combat missions were the most flown by any Eighth Air Force pilot in World War II.
 * Capt Colin Kelly (1915–1941): Pilot of the first U.S. B-17 lost in action.
 * Col Frank Kurtz (1911–1996): The USAAF's most decorated pilot of World War II. Commander of the 463rd Bombardment Group (Heavy), 15th Air Force, Celone Field, Foggia, Italy. Clark Field Philippines attack survivor. Olympic bronze medalist in diving (1932), 1944–1945. Father of actress Swoosie Kurtz, herself named for the still-surviving B-17D mentioned above.
 * Gen Curtis LeMay (1906–1990): Became head of the Strategic Air Command and Chief of Staff of the USAF.
 * Lt Col Nancy Love (1914–1976) and Betty (Huyler) Gillies (1908–1998): The first women pilots to be certified to fly the B-17, in 1943 and to qualify for the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron.
 * SSgt Alan Magee (1919–2003): B-17 gunner who on 3 January 1943 survived a 22,000 ft freefall after his aircraft was shot down by the Luftwaffe over St. Nazaire.
 * Col Robert K. Morgan (1918–2004): Pilot of Memphis Belle.
 * Lt Col Robert Rosenthal (1917–2007): Commanded the only surviving B-17, Royal Flush, of a US 8th Air Force raid by the 100th Bomb Group on Münster on 10 October 1943. Completed 53 missions. Earned sixteen medals for gallantry (including one each from Britain and France), and led the raid on Berlin on 3 February 1945, that is likely to have ended the life of Roland Freisler, the infamous "hanging judge" of the People's Court.

Notable appearances in media
A Douglas Aircraft B-17 assembly line is featured in the 1944 drama An American Romance. Hollywood featured the B-17 in its period films, such as director Howard Hawks' Air Force starring John Garfield and Twelve O'Clock High starring Gregory Peck. Both films were made with the full cooperation of the United States Army Air Forces and used USAAF aircraft and (for Twelve O'Clock High) combat footage. In 1964, the latter film was made into a television show of the same name and ran for three years on ABC TV. Footage from Twelve O' Clock High was also used, along with three restored B-17s, in the 1962 film The War Lover. An early model YB-17 also appeared in the 1938 film Test Pilot with Clark Gable and Spencer Tracy, and later with Clark Gable in Command Decision in 1948, in Tora! Tora! Tora! in 1970, and in Memphis Belle with Matthew Modine, Eric Stoltz, Billy Zane, and Harry Connick Jr. in 1990. The most famous B-17, the Memphis Belle, toured the U. S. with her crew to reinforce national morale (and to sell war bonds). She was featured in a USAAF documentary, Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress.

The Flying Fortress has also been featured in artistic works expressing the physical and psychological stress of the combat conditions and the high casualty rates that crews suffered. Works such as The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner by Randall Jarrell and Heavy Metal's section "B-17" depict the nature of these missions. The Ball turret itself has inspired works like Steven Spielberg's The Mission. Artists who served on the bomber units also created paintings and drawings depicting the combat conditions in World War II.

"Masters of the Air", a 2024 American war drama television miniseries created by John Shiban and John Orloff, based on the 2007 book Masters of the Air: America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany by Donald L. Miller, follows the actions of the 100th Bomb Group, a B-17 unit in eastern England during World War II.

title: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress


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Talk:Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress

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Contradiction in Introduction
The last paragraph of the intro reads (emphasis added):

"As of November 2022, four aircraft remain airworthy, none flown in combat. Dozens more are in storage or on static display. The oldest of these is The Swoose, a B-17D which was flown in combat in the Pacific on the first day of the United States' involvement in World War II."

Which is it? Were none of the four remaining airworthy aircraft flown in combat, or was the oldest of them flown in combat? Eclectic7713 (talk) 13:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

 * It seemed to me that a comma should have been used instead of a period/full stop, hopefully it is clearer now. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  14:40, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Tonnage
The lede makes the claim that the B-17 'dropped more bombs than any other aircraft in World War II', which is unevidenced, reads as a bit schoolboyish, and probably isn't correct. Perhaps it should say 'any other US aircraft', which, if true, would still be remarkable, given the higher production numbers of the B-24 and that bomber's widespread use in both major theatres, whereas B-17s saw relatively little service outside Europe. Further down we find a claim, sourced to a US publication, that B-17s dropped over 640,000 tons in the European theatre (and they didn't drop much anywhere else). Presumably this means US short tons -- it would be odd if it did not. And, further down still, we find the correct claim that British Lancasters dropped 681,645 short tons in the European theatre. (The original source for this claim is authoritative, being a letter of 18 October 1945 from Group Captain S.P.A. Patmore, OBE, at RAF Bomber Command Headquarters, High Wycombe, to A.V. Roe & Co., designers and manufacturers of the Lancaster, though the article cites the RAF website.) The B-17 averaged a two-ton bombload, so it would require more than 20,000 successful B-17 sorties in other theatres to make up the shortfall, which is, to put it mildly, unlikely. It would be interesting to know the total tonnage dropped by B-24s (they usually carried a similar load to B-17s), but at present it appears that the Lancaster dropped the highest tonnage of any bomber during the Second World War, by a significant margin. B-52s dropped about 2.2 million tons over seven years in the Vietnam War, but Lancasters managed almost a third of that total in about a third of the time, mostly in 1943-5. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

 * If the statement in the lead is not supported by the body text then simply remove it. It was not there at the time of promotion to Featured Article status. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  18:54, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The text was added here, you could ask the editor what source was used. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  19:11, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress


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Trieste (bathyscaphe)

Trieste is a Swiss-designed, Italian-built deep-diving research bathyscaphe. In 1960, it became the first crewed vessel to reach the bottom of Challenger Deep in the Mariana Trench, the deepest point in Earth's seabed. The mission was the final goal for Project Nekton, a series of dives conducted by the United States Navy in the Pacific Ocean near Guam. The vessel was piloted by Swiss oceanographer Jacques Piccard and US Navy lieutenant Don Walsh. They reached a depth of about 10916 m.

The bathyscaphe was designed by Swiss scientist Auguste Piccard, the father of pilot Jacques Piccard. It was built in Italy and first launched in 1953. The vessel was first owned and operated by the French Navy until it was purchased by the US Navy in 1958. It was taken out of service in 1966. Since the 1980s, it has been on exhibit in the National Museum of the United States Navy in Washington, D.C.

Design
Trieste was designed by the Swiss scientist Auguste Piccard, based on his previous experience with the bathyscaphe FNRS-2. The term bathyscaphe refers to its capacity to dive and manoeuvre untethered to a ship in contrast to a bathysphere, bathys being ancient Greek meaning "deep" and scaphe being a light, bowl-shaped boat. Built in Italy and launched on 26 August 1953 near the Isle of Capri on the Mediterranean Sea it  was operated in the  Mediterranean by the French Navy for several years until it was purchased by the United States Navy in 1958 for US$250,000, equivalent to $ million today. Trieste consisted of a heavy crew sphere suspended from a hull containing tanks filled with gasoline (petrol) for buoyancy, ballast hoppers filled with iron shot and floodable water tanks to sink. This general configuration remained the same but after modifications to the hull for Project Nekton, which included the dive to Challenger Deep, Trieste was more than 15 m long. The hull was built by Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico, in the Free Territory of Trieste on the border between Italy and Yugoslavia, now in Italy, hence the name. The pressure sphere was built separately and installed on the hull in the Cantiere navale di Castellammare di Stabia, near Naples. The pressure sphere was attached to the underside of the hull and accommodated two crew who accessed it via a vertical shaft through the hull; this access shaft was not pressurized and flooded with seawater on descent. The sphere was completely self-contained, having a closed-circuit rebreather system with oxygen provided from cylinders while carbon dioxide was scrubbed from the air by being passed through canisters of soda-lime. Batteries provided electrical power. Piccard's original pressure sphere was built by Acciaierie, Terni of steel forged in two hemispheres and welded to form a sphere 2.4 m in diameter and 89 mm thick, This pressure sphere was replaced in December 1958 with another cast by the Krupp Steel Works of Essen, Germany in three sections; an equatorial ring and two caps, which were finely machined and joined by the Ateliers de Constructions Mécaniques de Vevey. The new sphere was also steel, but smaller at 2.16 m diameter and with thicker walls, at 127 mm, calculated to withstand the 1250 kg/cm2 pressure at the bottom of Challenger Deep plus a substantial factor of safety. The new sphere weighed 14.25 MT in air and 8 MT in water giving it an average specific gravity 2.6 times (or 1.6 times greater than) that of seawater (13÷(13−8)). Outside observations by the crew were made through a porthole made from a single, tapered block of acrylic glass; the only transparent material available that could withstand the pressure. Outside illumination was by quartz arc-light bulbs, which could withstand the pressure without modification. The buoyancy tanks were filled with gasoline, which floats in water and is similarly incompressible. Changes in the volume of the gasoline caused by any slight compression or temperature changes were accommodated by the free flow of seawater into and out of the bottom of the tanks during a dive via valves, equalising the pressure and allowing them to be lightly built. Ballast was held in two conical hoppers fore and aft of the crew sphere each containing 9 MT of iron shot. This shot ballast allowed the craft to sink, and its release caused it to ascend. The iron shot was locked in place at the throats of the hoppers by electromagnets and was released either by switching the electromagnets off or in the event of an electrical failure. Progressive release allowed buoyancy trim. Compressed-air–driven variable-buoyancy pressure vessels typically used in submarines are not feasible at extreme pressure. Water tanks at each end of the hull were pumped out for flotation, lifting, and towing on the surface and fully flooded to allow sinking. Following its acquisition by the United States Navy, Trieste was modified extensively by the Naval Electronics Laboratory, San Diego, California, tested in the Pacific Ocean over the next few years, and culminated in a dive to the bottom of Challenger Deep 23 January 1960.

The Mariana Trench dives
Trieste departed San Diego on 5 October 1959 for Guam aboard the freighter Santa Maria to participate in Project Nekton, a series of very deep dives in the Mariana Trench.

On 23 January 1960, it reached the ocean floor in the Challenger Deep (the deepest southern part of the Mariana Trench), carrying Jacques Piccard and Don Walsh. This was the first time a vessel, crewed or uncrewed, had reached the deepest known point of the Earth's oceans. The onboard systems indicated a depth of 11521 m, although this was revised later to 10916 m; fairly recently, more accurate measurements have found Challenger Deep to be between 10911 m and 10994 m deep.

The descent to the ocean floor took 4 hours 47 minutes at a descent rate of 0.9 m/s. After passing 9000 m, one of the outer Plexiglas window panes cracked, shaking the entire vessel. The two men spent twenty minutes on the ocean floor. The temperature in the cabin was 7 °C (45 °F) at the time. While at maximum depth, Piccard and Walsh unexpectedly regained the ability to communicate with the support ship, USS Wandank (ATA-204), using a sonar/hydrophone voice communications system. At a speed of almost 1 mi/s – about five times the speed of sound in air – it took about seven seconds for a voice message to travel from the craft to the support ship and another seven seconds for answers to return.

While at the bottom, Piccard and Walsh reported observing a number of sole and flounder (both flatfish). The accuracy of this observation has later been questioned and recent authorities do not recognize it as valid. The theoretical maximum depth for fish is at about 8000-8500 m, beyond which they would become hyperosmotic. Invertebrates such as sea cucumbers, some of which potentially could be mistaken for flatfish, have been confirmed at depths of 10000 m and more. Walsh later said that their original observation could be mistaken as their knowledge of biology was limited. Piccard and Walsh noted that the floor of the Challenger Deep consisted of "diatomaceous ooze". The ascent took 3 hours and 15 minutes. The National Museum of the Navy commemorated the 60th anniversary of the dive in January 2020.

Other deep dives and retirement
The Trieste performed a number of deep dives in the Mediterranean prior to being purchased by the U.S. Navy in 1958. It conducted 48 dives exceeding 3700 m between 1953 and 1957 as the Batiscafo Trieste.

Beginning in April 1963, Trieste was modified and used in the Atlantic Ocean to search for the missing nuclear submarine USS Thresher (SSN-593). Trieste was delivered to Boston Harbor by USS Point Defiance (LSD-31) under the command of Captain H. H. Haisten. In August 1963, Trieste found debris of the wreck off the coast of New England, 2560 m below the surface after several dives. Trieste 's participation in the search earned it the Navy Unit Commendation.

Following the mission, Trieste was returned to San Diego and taken out of service in 1966. Between 1964 and 1966, Trieste was used to develop its replacement, the Trieste II, with the original Terni pressure sphere reincorporated in its successor. In early 1980, it was transported to the Washington Navy Yard where it remains on exhibit today in the National Museum of the U.S. Navy, along with the Krupp pressure sphere.

Awards

 * Navy Unit Citation with star
 * Meritorious Unit Commendation with star
 * Navy E Ribbon
 * National Defense Service Medal with star

title: Trieste (bathyscaphe)


text:
Talk:Baltimore Ravens

Marching Band
I ask to all that we add to this to the page, speaking of the story of the Baltimore Marching Colts, that would become the Marching Ravens.. I will add to it and would appreciate assistance in this!! :) This is the NFL's only current, Official Marching Band. Addition:  THey have everything on this page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marching_Ravens However.., I think we should link/ mention them in this article!! Source: http://30for30.espn.com/film/the-band-that-wouldnt-die.html --Tigerhawk47 (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I just wanted to call out that the Marching Band section refers to the Washington Football Team by their previous name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:10B:E200:BD51:F1B5:97E2:319D (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Untitled
I don't agree with the shift of Cleveland Browns content to the Cleveland Browns page. The old Browns and current Ravens are linearly the same franchise, with the same owner and carrying over much of the same management structure and player personnel. The new Browns are an expansion team with new owners and personnel. As is correctly pointed out, the current franchise owns the old trademarks and stuff, but that's not relevant; it's like saying that Michael Jackson was a Beatle because he now owns the rights to the old Lennon-McCartney songs.

Willing to be persuaded; otherwise, would recommend switching it back. -- RjLesch

I am inclined to agree. While it is true that the NFL decided to transfer the teams history, the fact remains that the Baltimore Ravens were not an expansion team. They had the same players, coaches, and management as the old Browns, and it is they new Browns that are the true expansion team. Jeff8765 15:42, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * But currently, the NFL and all its official records technically treats the Baltimore Ravens as an 1996 expansion team who just got same players, coaches, and management as the old Browns. The Browns are treated like the team suspended operations from 1996-1998. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 05:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Zzyzx11 is correct, and the wish among Baltimore fans is to use that same treatment to make the Colts in Baltimore the Baltimore predessesor team, with a suspended operations until the Ravens came along. --Noitall 23:31, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * I doubt that will happen in the near future, as the Irsay family seems persistent in keeping all of the Baltimore Colts history and records. Until then, the Colts and the Ravens are officially different and separate teams. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 18:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Several issues: It is only part Irsay, the rest in Tagliabou. The Colts are the one exception and have been treated that way from the beginning. In fact, the city of Baltimore was initiating eminant domain procedings when the Colts left (it may have hastened their departure). It is a legal argument that would likely work, but is likely not to be needed any more.

'''This is not the "NFL" page. The city of Baltimore and all those hall of famers, uncluding Johnnie U., have every right to assert their position that Baltimore NFL history includes the Colts. NPOV means they get equal treatment'''.

Finally, the legacy of 2 previous Baltimore Colts teams was OFFICIALLY incorporated with great fanfare into the Baltimore Ravens, see brief description at Baltimore Colts (1947-50). This is the only football team to have such a legacy and history. --Noitall 03:16, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * All I am going to by the official history of the NFL. That is the standard that was agreed on WikiProject National Football League. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Noitall, And please stop trying to edit when I am trying to edit, please... I am getting constant edit conflicts, that my edits to this page have not gotten through until now. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * You continue to ignore all discussion, seem to think this is the NFL page, and seem to think this is your page. You are wrong on all of them.  Further, I could care less what some Wikiproject agreed to.  We don't have a some private organization controlling anything on Wiki.  Should the Bush Administration write its own article on Wiki and should Enron?  Give me a break.  Are you a newbie here?  --Noitall 03:36, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Please calm down. First, as I wrote above, I have tried to write my comments here but I kept on getting an edit conflict. Second, as I wrote in my previous message about, "The Colts and the Ravens are officially different and separate teams". Third, we did agree on the policy at the Wikiproject. And lastly, I am not really a newbie; I am on here editing on most days because I am an administrator here. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * So, now that we are not having edit conflicts anymore, do you like my compromised edits? Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with your compromise edit. For the most part, I don't mind further explanations as long as the position of some (very passionate) fans and hall of famers is in there. I became rather annoyed because I thought I already took some time to make compromise edits and, well, you know the rest. --Noitall 03:52, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see this become the standard for relocating sports franchises. When a team abandons a city, they should leave the history behind. It's ridiculous that Baltimore couldn't call their CFL team the Colts because the team that fled to Indianapolis held the rights to the name. Phoenix has no business trading on the Chicago Cardinals history, and so on. The city of Washington should have been allowed to call the transplanted Montreal Expos the Senators if the fans wanted to do so, without requiring permission from the Texas Rangers.

Whatever the legal issues, public pressure can enforce this.

However, we are recording history here, and the details behind the Cleveland-Baltimore shuffle should be documented. WHPratt (talk) 02:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)WHPratt

If the Sony Records declared Journey's curent lead singer Arnel Pineda would for now on legally named Steve Perry and get all Steve Perry gold recoeds and the original Steve Perry would for now on be called Joe Smith. Would that make Arnel Pineda Steve Perry? DLA75 (talk) 02:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No. But on the other hand, if the owner of the historic Brown Widget Company in Cleveland wanted to move his business, and the city sued to stop him, they could agree out of court that he could hire the workers and move to Baltimore to set up a new Ravens Widget Company. Meanwhile, the historic Brown Widget Company would cease its business operations for three years while it gets approval to obtain a new owner, new workers, and the proper business licenses to open again. Zzyzx11 (talk) 16:02, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Improvement drive
National Football League is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you are interested!--Fenice 20:39, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Not to be forgotten
Many of these players are already forgotten and should be forgotten. Here is the original list.
 * Gary Baxter
 * Randall Cunningham
 * Trent Dilfer
 * Elvis Grbac
 * Eric Green
 * Jim Harbaugh
 * Edgerton Hartwell
 * Priest Holmes
 * Jermaine Lewis
 * Scott Mitchell
 * Bam Morris
 * Chris Redman
 * Shannon Sharpe
 * Jamie Sharper
 * Tony Siragusa
 * Duane Starks
 * Brandon Stokley
 * Travis Taylor
 * Vinny Testaverde
 * Eric Turner
 * Rod Woodson
 * Sabieh Mateen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paytonhoehn (talk • contribs) 12:21, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I am paring it down to people who contributed substantially in the early losing years or contributed substantially in Super Bowl year. In addition, if they made it big outside of the Ravens, perhaps they should be included. Thus it becomes:
 * Trent Dilfer
 * Priest Holmes
 * Jermaine Lewis
 * Shannon Sharpe
 * Jamie Sharper
 * Tony Siragusa
 * Duane Starks
 * Brandon Stokley
 * Vinny Testaverde
 * Rod Woodson

Comments? --Noitall 10:36, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Comments
I decided to add Gary Baxter back to the list of not to be forgotten players, I am also adding Edgerton Hartwell back to the list.--IAMTHEEGGMAN 20:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Did Dale Carter, the 199? Defensive rookie of the year, ever play for this team? Somebody ought to add him to the notable player list. 216.165.236.141 02:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC) Don't forget about Michael Jackson. Ravens best receiver those first few years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.201.129 (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I added a fact on the Ravens winning the Super Bowl as a wild card team. They were the third team with a title of 'Wild Card' to win the big game ('80 Raiders and '97 Broncos the first two), but the '69 Kansas City Chiefs won Super Bowl IV after finishing second in their division, making the Ravens the fourth non-division winning world champion. The 'Wild Card' term wasn't applied to the Chiefs in that final year before the AFL-NFL merger.--Rockedaz (talk) 00:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism and BJ Ward
I have two comments: First, there should be a disambiguation page for B.J. Ward the football player as opposed to B.J. Ward the actress. Second, I see apparent vandalism where the Ravens' logo should appear. --JHVipond 03:01, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Both fixed and taken care of, thanks for pointing it out. --Boothy443 | comhrá 05:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * JHVipond, remember that you can always revert a page to an earlier version. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 17:30, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Logo Change in 1998
The caption to the logo says it was changed due to copyright infringement, but searching for 'logo' in the article yielded no hits. I'm intrigued. What are the details of that? Is there another logo which was similar in design?
 * I started a new section on this topic. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 20:29, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Logo Controversy
Alakazam here!

On the "Logo Controversy" section, that's cool that it's comparing the artist's drawing and the Ravens' very firt logo. Keep up the good work guys!

Change in order of colors
I changed the order of the colors from "Black, Purple, and Gold" to "Purple, Black, and Gold" because the home jersey is purple. The jersey color is the primary, not the helmet color. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.208.197.248 (talk • contribs).

 * If you are curious, what I basically did was copy the order "Black, Purple, and Gold" from the book NFL Record and Fact Book (ISBN 193299436X). Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know how to change the alternate team uniform to indicate that it is white pants with a black top? For 2008, the pants are white with a black and purple stripe, not solid black as they were in the past. The alternate uniform was worn only one time, during the Flexed NBC Sunday Night Football game Dec 7 at M&T Bank Stadium. http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-ravensredskins1207-pg,0,6052691.photogallery ArrnoldMulligan (talk) 16:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Not to be Forgotten and Broken Links
If the player has a broken link, shouldn't he be removed from the Not to be Forgotten List? I was just checking with you guys before I do it... or someone else beats me to it...--68.55.182.255 13:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, normally red links are not removed from a list like that just in case a registered user decides to start an article about him. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 14:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sheild logo
If they got sued for using that logo they why is it still used on the field at the 50 yard line? -- Coasttocoast 06:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It is NOT the same copyvio "B" logo with wings. If you look carefully at the current logo at the 50-yard line of M&T Bank Stadium, the design inside the shield is similar to the Flag of Maryland. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 07:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is the Flag of Maryland.Mezlo 18:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Wheelchair basketball team
The current Maryland Ravens were originally known as the Baltimore Ravens before the football team got grabby with the name. I'm disappointed that there is no mention of that. -Etoile (talk) 14:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Baltimore NFL Page It is time to attach the Baltimore Colts history and records to this page or create a Baltimore NFL entry that lists them together. The people who look at this page are Baltimore Colts and Baltimore Ravens fans. There is no such thing as a "Colts" fan. A fan is either a fan of the Baltimore Colts or the Indianapolis Colts. On December 28, 2008, it was Baltimore that hosted the Official NFL Celebration of the "Greatest Game Every Played" which was won by Baltimore. Therefore, since the players and fans who made the Baltimore Colts an institution feel that the Baltimore Ravens are the direct successors to the Baltimore Colts this should be accurately reflected in Wikipedia. Each Hall of Fame Baltimore Colt is honored in Baltimore at the Ravens stadium and not in Indiana. Logic would dictate that the gatekeepers of this page allow direct links from the Baltimore Ravens to the Baltimore Colts on this entry. If not, then a Baltimore NFL page needs to be created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.11.196.52 (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

2010 O.T.A
With a productive off-season now over the Ravens have changed what was once considered a weakness into a strength at the wide receiver position. According to John Eisenberg "It was such a positive off-season that the Ravens are going to be a popular pick to win the AFC North". But with progress there is also concern, All-Pro safety Ed Reed has declared a 50-50 chance of return for the 2010 season, it is no doubt that without the experienced veteran the Ravens will surly be at a disadvantage vs other team's passing game. With the new found teaching method of head coach John Harbaugh (whole-part-whole) contributing Writer Ryan Mink felt The success of the Raven's organized team activities was not by coincidence.Ish kay (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/06/Eisenberg--Ish kay (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Wild Card vs. Non Divison champ
The current version of the article contains the following line:

 * The Ravens became only the third wild card team (and fourth non-division champion) to win a Super Bowl championship.

I'm unsure how a team could win a Super Bowl being neither a division champ nor a wild card. Can someone explain, or was this sentence the result of someone's personal impairment? HuskyHuskie (talk) 23:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

 * They may have been thinking of the 1969 Kansas City Chiefs, who finished second in their division but ended up as AFL champions due to a one-year-only crossover playoff system. They weren't commonly called a "wild card" at the time. WHPratt (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

No mention of Edgar Allen Poe or The Raven (poem)? Seriously?
Why this oversight? 216.197.66.61 (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree, I came to this page to specifically confirm if this was true, and couldn't find anything of it. 89.167.102.50 (talk) 13:51, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Your comment is from 2012 and I see the info on the page was retrieved in 2006, so it must have always been there...you probably shouldn't come to a Wikipedia article to "confirm" anything, but use the sources provided in the article or do your own research...this is a user-based website after all...Chic3z (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"Rivalries" Section
Some of the teams listed here seem like a stretch to list as "rivals," particularly the Jets, Titans, and Jaguars. The Steelers and Patriots are rivals with the Ravens because of frequency of meetings, how important the meetings are in the regular season and the playoffs, how close the games are, etc. The Colts and Browns are rivals with the Ravens because of the history of teams changing between cities. But to suggest some are true "rivalries" just because of a couple of close games doesn't seem to honor how significant rivals are (Titans, Jaguars, Jets.) There are 15 teams other than the Ravens in the AFC and 8 of those 15 are listed as "rivals" along with 1 team from the NFC. While I am not doubting there are good reasons many of these teams have grudges with with the Ravens and vice versa, I think it is a bit of a stretch suggesting all of them are true rivalries.

Furthermore, the Jets, Titans, and Jaguars articles do not list the Ravens as a rival (nor do the Redskins or Colts, though those seem much more plausible given the geography and history, respectively.) The Steelers, Patriots, Browns, and Bengals do list the Ravens as rivals in their respective articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pittsburgher1987 (talk • contribs) 04:32, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Bjking1003 (talk) 23:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

fan graffiti
took out the stupid RAVENS 2013 SUPERBOWL CHAMPIONS someone had added

i know your happy (as a fan so am i) ...but christ

EDIT i have replaced it with something a LITTLE more suitable

Tony Spike (talk) 03:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Tony Spike, based on the changes you made, I can assure you that Wikipedia would not agree with your definition of "suitable". Please leave editing to those who know what they're doing. You cannot dump poorly written fragments like that into articles ("as of 2013 they are the current Superbowl champions") or change correct wikilinks to incorrect ones (changing AFC North to NFC North). I'll assume you were not purposely being disruptive by those changes. We must write in proper sentences on Wikipedia. And it's Super Bowl, not Superbowl. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 04:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Tony Spike, I see that someone correctly reverted your changing of the AFC wikilink in the lead to NFC, but then right after that ChicoSNKR changed it back to NFC again. Are you also editing as ChicoSNKR? It's quite unusual that two different editors would change such an inconspicuous piece of information, especially within minutes of each other. --76.189.111.199 (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

no I am not editing under another name I can assure you, I do remember someone else WAS editing the article at the same time as me so any corrections I made would have been instantly overwritten by theirs, if memory serves I didn't touch the wikilinks either ...least not by design I assure you, if I did make a mistake i would have tried to correct it .. I can only assume if this is what happened that any corrections got overwritten by theirs since we were both editing it at the same time, but i certainly DID NOT touch the wikilinks on purpose, as it stands to my knowledge all I did was remove someone's graffiti as best I could given my lack of wiki editing skills, I assumed someone would come along and make it better anyway so by suitable ... I mean more suitable than it was, or suitable for the time being if you prefer, I mean personally I am not one for caring if it adheres to your standards or not since it was only meant to be a quick fix and have no intention of becoming a full time contributor, I was simply cleaning up a mess as best I could, you should be grateful I took the time to at least try to help out a little, regardless of how poorly written it was, it was better than what was their, yeah it wasn't up to scratch and you assumed correctly about the whole not trying to be disruptive thing but everybody has to learn about the proper standard somewhere and somehow, and quite frankly if your EVER going help me to learn this standard you can keep your condescending attitude of the first reply to yourself in future, oh, one more thing, i think you will find its not spelled Super Bowl ....its spelled I don't particularly care, just work with me in future instead of being an arse head about it will ya

Tony Spike (talk) 09:33, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

 * I would remove it myself as well--64.69.155.2 (talk) 05:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Please identify Ravens people in this photo
, did I correctly tag Ted Monachino (the white man with the white shirt and hands in pockets), and who is the man standing between that man and Antoine McClain? Arbor to SJ (talk) 00:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

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Vandalism
The page's personnel (owners and such) have been vandalised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:7E1B:800:A461:C767:A0AA:78D7 (talk) 16:16, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

"Baltimore Football Team" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Baltimore Football Team. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 05:15, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Media and Culture Theory - MDC 254
— Assignment last updated by Brandonbond1204 (talk) 13:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Baltimore Ravens