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Talk:States and territories of Australia

Comparative terminology
User:ZanderSchubert commented in June 2006 that the Comparative Terminology table was "ambiguous as it's impossible to tell where the cell borders are, and therefore which state/territory uses which name." I just read article for first time and was equally confused as it's still not corrected. If nobody knows how to create those "boxed" tables (I dont) may I suggest the author repeats the various titles against each state/territory, rather than showing the title at some ambiguous mid-point. Tiddy (talk) 04:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

earlier comments without date
If you were to check the Public Service Style Manual you would find that the correct title for the head of Government in the Northern Territory is the Chief Minister FOR the Northern Territory.

Somin - I'm not so keen on your adjustments to the ACT Chief Minister situation - my original text pointed out that the Chief Minister is the only "popularly elected" chief executive in Australian government. Yes, he/she is elected by the Legislative assembly, but has to have been popularly elected to that assembly in the first place. Your revision, while accurate, seems to lose this distinction, in my opinion at least. Your thoughts? MMGB

I changed it because I was worried that "popularly elected" might be misinterpreted as meaning he/she was directly elected like how Presidents in several countries are (each voter casts their vote for a candidate, whichever candidate gets the most votes becomes President). I can see your point though. -- SJK

See Talk:Australian States and Territories/Australian states table generator for the Perl script used to generate the tables for the 8 States and territories of Australia.

State capitals
I've added the state capitals here since I've done a redirect from Australian capital cities from this page. (Other options for re-direction include List of cities in Australia and List of capitals of sub-national entities, but I thought this page seemed like the best choice.)

I will also adjust Jervis Bay Territory on the list - it is a territory, but it isn't regarded as a territory the same as NT and ACT are. I think it may actually be administered as part of ACT, but I think the External Territories should be changed to 'Minor Territories' or something similar, and add JBT to that list. Chuq

 * Yes, Jervis Bay is an integral part of the ACT. JackofOz 04:06, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I've made the state/territory changes, as mentioned above (that was also me - forgot to sign it the first time) Chuq 10:48, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Belatedly, I wasn't quite right about JBT being a part of the ACT. See my recent edit to the article.  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The Honourable
A note about the changes I made to the "Honorable"s attached to the names of the state/territory political leaders.
 * The word is not normally spelled in full, but the abbreviation "The Hon" (without a full stop) is highly acceptable and appropriate (not to mention shorter)
 * if you do spell the word in full, PLEASE use the Australian spelling "Honourable" (with a "u"), not the American.
 * The title "Honourable" arises from being a member of the relevant Executive Council, and anybody who has ever been a Minister of the Crown remains an Executive Councillor-under-summons for the rest of their life unless they are specifically removed from such a status by misbehaviour etc.
 * because there are no Executive Councils in the ACT and the NT, their Chief Ministers are not "the Hon" but simply Mr, Ms or whatever. (unsigned by User:JackOfOz)

 * I know this is old, but I just saw it and wanted to note for the record that this comment is completely wrong about the Northern Territory - which does use the honourable title for their Chief Ministers, not to mention all their other ministers. I'm not so sure for the ACT, however. Ambi 14:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Only just seen this comment today. I can find no reference to any NT Chief Minister or any other NT Minister ever being called "the Hon" by virtue of their NT offices.  JackofOz 07:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical order
Is there any reason why the states were changed to alphabetical order? One order is as good as any I guess, but I can't think of a reason to specifically change them? NSW-Vic-Qld-SA-WA-Tas-NT-ACT is pretty much the "standard" order for states - don't know why (approximately by population) but it just is - see post codes prefixes, etc. -- Chuq 11:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * True, but then where do you place Norfolk I. etc? Grant65 (Talk) 15:58, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * At the end I guess :) -- Chuq 23:56, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Flag icons
The icons next to the states aren't very distinctive at that resolution. Would anyone object to using the state badges instead? This would lead to inconsistency between states and territories icons, but you'd get a better idea of what the picture was, so it'd have a bit more value IMHO. —Felix the Cassowary ( ɑe hɪː jɐ ) 14:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * They are sized the same as the country flag templates (🇦🇺). I think they're better then badges, and you're right, it would mean inconsistencies between states and territories. I was planning to convert that list to a table like in Departments of Colombia.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 14:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Ashmore and Cartier Islands?
Ashmore and Cartier Islands' page says its part of Northern Territory. I don't know which one is right

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

move. — Nightst a  llion  (?) 07:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move to States and territories of Australia
Australian States and Territories → States and territories of Australia – The proposed article name/format is consistent with almost all other articles concerning national subdivisions (e.g., Provinces and territories of Canada). E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Update Tobias Conradi moved the article shortly after the RfM was posted. (Thanks!)  I'll retain the RfM for now if only, for anything, to reaffirm this decision or identify challenges/other opinions. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 02:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * and I moved without knowing that there was an RfM. Was just because of consistency. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * These two actions were separated by a scant 19 minutes, so this was either coincidence or prescience. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I wikified in the matrix of subnational entities, where I found the link territories of Australia to be red. And then I found the -with respect to other subdivision pages- inconsistent name, and fixed this. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~

 * Support as proponent. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Support for consistency. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm not particularly opposed to the move, but I don't support it either. However, I will say that it's most inappropriate to move a page as prominent as this without discussion. There are many corresponding structures that will now need to be updated to conform with the new title (I won't propose it be moved back). Categories are one instance. If this change persists, I suggest that Category:Australian states and territories be deprecated and that Category:Subdivisions of Australia take its place with Category:States of Australia and Category:Territories of Australia as subcategories. I've left a note at the Australian Wikipedians' Notice Board for further input.--cj | talk 03:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I support dropping the joined category and using what you suggested. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if the top-level category should be named Category:Subnational entities of Australia instead (I only suggest this given the apparent prevalence of that term in Wp) ... I don't see there being a problem using categories and subcategories, and also using whatever is consistently used throughout Wp. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 13:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The prevalent term is subnational entity and the 2nd most used is "subdivision" (Category:Subdivisions by country). Subdivision is shorter and when used with the name of a region (mostly a country) then it is not ambigous as when used alone. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 13:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure – these are just options. Whatever prevails yet is consistent. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 14:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Selective deletion
I am about to delete from the article history those revisions whose content and/or edit summaries libel Xtra, per Wikipedia's libel policy. Selective deletion requires full deletion followed by selective restoration. Therefore this article will be deleted for a very brief period of time. Snottygobble 04:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Complete. Snottygobble 04:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Lord Howe Island
The section "State and Territory Codes" lists Lord Howe Island. This is not a territory, but an integral part of New South Wales. I tried to remove it but my table formatting skills let me down. Anyone?? JackofOz 06:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Central Australia
The short lived territory's details have been added. Move it to somewhere else if you think it is more appropriate, but I believe it should be included somewhere. Kransky 06:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Compared Terminology
Can someone who is good with Wiki tables please edit the 'Compared Terminology' table? As it currently appears (at least on my computer) the names of (for example) the houses of parliament are ambiguous as it's impossible to tell where the cell borders are, and therefore which state/territory uses which name. ZanderSchubert 03:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggested merger of Eastern states of Australia, Southern Australia, Northern Australia
I say no way, José..... These are all common terms to varying degrees. How is it going to help someone from overseas, looking for a definition, to be redirected to States and territories of Australia? Grant65 | Talk 05:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose. I agree with Grant. These cross-border divisions are very significant and definitely should be covered. For example, the term 'northern Australia' is very important to articles which describe Australia's military and military history and a central definition of what 'northern Australia' is needs to be provided. --Nick Dowling 11:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose if for no other reason than America has articals on each of its geographical reagons. Xtra 11:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose as these are not administrative regions, but rather geographic. They could perhaps be all merged into a single Regions of Australia, but that would likely be taken over by the sub-state regions. Superregions of Australia or Macroregions of Australia might mean the right thing, but they sound stupid. Is there another word that fits? --Scott Davis Talk 05:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, there isn't :-) Grant65 | Talk 05:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

States as constitutional monarchies
In the infobox of each state article, the form of government is listed as "constitutional monarchy". Is this really true? Is the head of state of Western Australia a monarch? That is, is Elizabeth the Queen of Western Australia, along with all the other things she is queen of? I do see how this is not a clear-cut issue, because she does appoint the Governors (and I would assume that her choice is, in theory, unrestricted). But the infoboxes of other state articles, like Alberta, Oregon and Bavaria, don't list a form of government at all. Wouldn't that be the best solution here too? -- Jao 11:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, the queen is head of state of each state. The Governor represents the monarch directly, not through the Governor-general of Australia. --Scott Davis Talk 14:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Are you sure? I googled a little, and this book seems to think that the question doesn't have an unambiguous answer. -- Jao 19:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Scott Davis is correct. Australia is really 7 monarchies, not 1. If Australia had become a republic, theoretically one of the states could have remained a monarchy despite Australia as a whole becoming a republic. We have state governors, not lieutenant-governors like the provinces of Canada - that's because of the unique way our country federated. Lonelygirl16 10:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

 * We are getting ahead of ourselves, but...if the monarch remained monarch of one or more states, she/he would become subordinate to a (federal) president, in any feasible republican constitution. I doubt the monarch would accept such a state of affairs. But maybe I'm wrong. Grant  |  Talk  11:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately that's not how it works - the states are separate to the Commonwealth in terms of the executive. That's why the Governor-General and the Commonwealth Government have no say in who becomes a state governor; they only do in the case of administrators of territories (NT and NI at the moment). Lonelygirl16 08:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

NO the states are not separate from the Commonwealth -- and they are component parts of the Commonwealth and are subject to the Constitution of the Commonwealth. If the Constitution of the Commonwealth was changed to eliminate the ' Queen of Australia ' then the Governors of the States would not be able to give their assent- ' in the Queens name ' to state Laws. There is no law which authorises Elizabeth II to ' act' as the Queen of any State. Access to the Monarch by the States is as ' Queen of Australia '. It is important to remember that at Federation the colonies ceased to exist and became ' states of the Commonwealth '. Lejon 15 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.11.244 (talk) 13:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

 * (Having come through a link from Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom) See Talk:Republicanism in Australia/Archive 3 for a previous discussion on this. See also the Queensland Constitution Convention Communique which seems pretty clear that a successful federal referendum alone won't abolish the Queen of Australia who rules the individual states. (Before 1986 it was even messier as the states weren't ruled by the "Queen of Australia" but by the "Queen of the United Kingdom"! Fortunately the two being the same person hid the mess.) Timrollpickering (talk) 21:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

 * The Queen doesn't rule Australia or its States at all. Grassynoel (talk) 17:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

In 1975 the Queensland Government tried to establish the ' Queen ' as Queen of Queensland - a challenge was heard in the High Court and the attempt was rejected. Here is part of Murphy J 's summation --

"In truth, the Queensland Act is incompatible with the unity of the "one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth" which was established by the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act. The Constitution Act is the authority for the Constitution of Queensland and the powers of its Parliament (Constitution ss. 106, 107). (at p337) 27. The establishment by an Australian State of a relationship with another country under which a governmental organ (judicial or otherwise) of that country is to advise the State on the questions and matters referred to in the Act, is quite inconsistent with the integrity of Australia as an independent sovereign nation in the world community. It is not within the legislative competence of the Parliament of any State to compromise or attempts to compromise Australian sovereignty and independence. (at p337)".

Please see also some more excerpts discussing the relationship of the States to the Commonwealth at ' Australia Act 1986 ' ( wikipedia )  Note - the States did not continue as ' colonies ' after the Statute of Westminster -- simply because they were not colonies before the Statute. There was no ' dual ' Monarchy after 1931/1942. A higer level of autonomy was granted at the Federal level but that level was not extended to the second level of Australian Government. Lejon (talk) 04:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Comparative Terminology only for Mainland States and Territories?
Recently I was bold and added the terminology used in the inhabited external territories to the comparative terminology section. The title of the section and nothing in the section ever suggested that it was restricted only to the States and the Northern Territory, and seeing that none of the external territories are represented in any state or mainland territory's local legislature, I added them. User CJ however, reverted the edit with the simple explanation that they are not the same thing (which is pretty obvious), but doesn't explain why they are to be excluded. It is true that the Christmas Island and Cocos (Keeling) Islands are represented in the Australian Parliament as part of a electoral division encompassing a section of Northern Territory, but they are distinct. They have separate administrators (or in this case a shared administrator separate from the Northern Territory administrator) and are not represented in Northern Territory Legislative Assembly. In addition, the laws of Western Australia apply to Christmas Island and the Cocos Islands, which of course leaves the islands in the odd position of having W. Australian laws applying, but being represented in Australia's government along with Northern Territory, but at the same time not being represented in the legislatures of either Western Australia or the Northern Territory. Norfolk Island isn't even represented in the Australian legislature from what can be gathered on wikipedia's article on Australia's Electoral Divisions. This can be contrasted with Jervis Bay Territory which is represented in Australia's legislature along with ACT, has access to ACT courts and has ACT laws applied to it. It isn't represented in the ACT legislature either, but then neither does it seem to have any territorial terms with which to compare it to the states and other territories (no administrator or legislature, just the Jervis Bay Administration). So if all these external territories are territories of Australia and if they are inhabited and have some form of government structure then why exclude them from this section of an article about Australia's States and Territories (presumably all of Australia's territories too)?72.27.92.79 18:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

More on Comparative Terminology
Three questions:
 * We show the Governor-General as head of state of Australia. This is a matter of ongoing debate, but most commentators are squarely of the view that the Queen is the head of state, because it is she who appoints the GG to represent her.  Similarly for the Governors in relation to the states - they're also appointed by the Queen.
 * We show the Chief Minister of the ACT as the head of state of the ACT. Is this really so, given that the Federal Parliament can override ACT laws (and has done so), and that any such act of the Federal Parliament would have to be given Royal Assent by the Governor-General, representing the Queen?  Is there a citation showing the Chief Minister is the head of state?
 * We purport to show the terminology for the members of the various state/territory/federal legislative houses. What I think we actually show is the abbreviations of their titles.  A case in point is members of the House of Representatives.  Their title is just that, “member of the House of Representatives”;  “member of Parliament” is also used (and I note the footnote to that effect).  The standard abbreviation of the “member of the House of Representatives” title is MHR.  The standard abbreviation of the “member of Parliament” title is MP.  In both cases, the postnominal letters they get to use are MP (although many MHR/MPs erroneously use MHR as their postnominal).  Can this be clarified somehow?  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

How many states and territories?

 * Lede - The Commonwealth of Australia is made up of 8 states and territories …
 * The States and Territories of Australia table lists 16
 * Comparative terminology lists 12
 * Premiers and Chief ministers lists 9
 * State and territorial parliaments lists 9
 * State and territory police forces lists 8.

So, how many? -- JackofOz (talk) 22:58, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

 * All numbers are reasonable counts: 8 states and territories without Jervis Bay Territory, which seems to formally be a territory but mostly not function as one; 9 states and territories with JBT; 12 states, territories and inhabited (not only by weather or research staff) external territories; 16 states, territories and external territories. I agree that we should try to get the numbers consistent, or when this is not possible, explain why they are not. -- Jao (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Right on. --  JackofOz (talk) 23:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Timeshift (talk) 01:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and borrowed some text from the main Australia article. This way seems less confusing and more accurate to me.  Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 17:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, an explanation is needed. I've lived in Australia (Melbourne) all my life and have never heard of Jervis Bay. That's why I said there are 8 when I reworded the lead.  Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 01:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

 * By the way, where are the sources?  Balkan Fever  01:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Confusion
Why are there two pictures overlapping? Perhaps someone could put the two pictures in seperate boxes? I would do it myself, but I don't know how. QuackOfaThousandSuns (talk) 02:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

 * By the way, the box at the top of the talk page says "This article has been rated but has no comments." Isn't it time it was removed? QuackOfaThousandSuns (talk) 02:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

State constitutions
Do the Australian stats each have their own constitutions, as do the states of Germany and the USA? - BilCat (talk) 05:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes the States of Australia do have their own Constitutions .Lejon (talk) 12:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Nauru
Should Nauru be added as a former territory of Australia? The administrative arrangements documents here on an Australian governments website place Nauru as a territory of Australia, treated like the others. It was a UN territory given to Australia after WWII, and I think it should go on the list with Papua, North Australia, and Central Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 08:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Administrator is the upper house of Parliament???
In the Comparative terminology table, for the Northern Territory and Norfolk, Christmas and Cocos Islands, why are we saying the upper house of parliament is the Administator? Surely the correct entry there is None, exactly as we have for the ACT. The Administrator appears under Domestic administrator. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Rights of states and territories
Does anyone know which page explains the rights of states and territories, and how they are balanced by support from the federal government? Ninahexan (talk) 02:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_politics - and there are a few ideas that might come from a close reading of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessionism_in_Western_Australia SatuSuro 15:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * States rights was as much a hobby horse of a number of conservative politicians in the past - best place for this question is

 * I think the user was asking about separation of powers/competences. At least that is how I understood the question. - BilCat (talk) 16:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

This is probably the last place to ask the question - the Australian politics or even the main Australian project noticeboard would be more approrpriate SatuSuro 23:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If you gave the most acute answer then it seems that this was the second most approrpriate place to ask... 124.149.37.56 (talk) 12:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Improving statistics table
After restoring sorting to this table, I made some other changes that were later reverted. Although I can view the table nicely on my wide monitor, I wanted to improve its appearance for those without wide monitors. I'll describe some of these changes here in hopes of furthering a discussion and reaching a consensus. Are there some other considerations I am missing? One alternative I haven't researched would be eliminating the column rule between the value column and the associated rank column. If this were done, the two columns would appear visually as a single column and so there would be no need for the "Rank" label or for having two sorting symbols. Any comments? YBG (talk) 04:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried combining the value and rank columns, but because the ordinals weren't all the same width, this meant the value column wasn't aligned. One alternative I didn't try was to render the ordinal in a fixed-width font.
 * I added parantheses around the rank in hopes of connecting the ordinal number to the preceding column.
 * I eliminated sorting in the value columns. I don't see the benefit of being able to sort separately by area and also by rank in area, by population and also by population rank, etc.
 * I removed the 'Rank' heading so that the rank columns had only the sorting symbol in the header.
 * I inserted line breaks in the headings so the line breaks would occur in predictable places. I would have preferred having a "Population" header that spanned all of the population-related columns, but I couldn't figure out a way to do this and still retain sorting.
 * The basic problem is that you want to do something that can't done, and it is not entirely clear why it should be done. You can't make sorting work with colspans; it is as simple as that. You allude to something about people without monitors, but what you're on about is beyond me. The width of monitor shouldn't mean a thing. Eliminating sorting on the rank column because you don't see the point is all well and good, but for other people it might be more intuitive to sort by rank than by the underlying fact. Sure, the result is the same, which is to say the rows will end up in the same order, but it is a matter of focus: for them, it will be more natural to sort the rank column and use the simpler numbers to confirm the sorting worked properly. It may be a small benefit, but is greater than whatever aesthetic reason you see in eliminating it. Also, removing heading made it less clear what each of the small columns was for. With a three "Rank" columns for three main columns, it is clear which goes to which, but without even naming them, it is harder for a reader to know what is going on. The table should be easily understood; removing the heading made it less so. Adding parenthesis was odd. They were wholly unnecessary and harm visibility. Why they should "connect the ordinal number to the preceding number to the preceding column" argument is beyond me. Why should it do any such thing? Numbers for a list that are wrapped in parenthesis can as easily precede the item they relate to, and in fact more often do. -Rrius (talk) 07:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanation. One thing that I did not make clear is my desire to reduce the cluttered look that unplanned line breaks tend to create in page rendering.  Thanks especially for your comments about the difficulty of telling which fact column a rank column goes with.  I am also concerned about this, and I am not convinced that either version resolves this issue in a completely satisfactory manner.  Cheers. YBG (talk) 07:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The POPULATION sort seems to be broken now and I don't know how to fix it (I think it is sorting the items as though they are strings instead of numbers.) 98.210.178.115 (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's the notes/references that are making the sort go by text rather than by numeric value. I would like some help figuring out how to keep the notes there and still get the sorting right! Joshuazucker (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Solved by using Template:Nts for the population data. SiBr4 (talk) 18:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The moving map perpetuates a misconception
26 January 1788 is seared into all our memories as the day on which the Colony of NSW was founded. Except, IT WASN'T. Various proclamations were made that day, and certainly the physical possession of the continent by the British can reasonably date from then. But the formal legal promulgation of the Crown Colony of New South Wales did not take place until 12 days later, on 7 February 1788.

Can someone who knows what they're doing fix the date on the map, please? --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I've found online tools to break and make animated GIFs from the component images such as http://ezgif.com . I doubt I would be able to match the font etc if I changed the text on just one of these 23 slides. There's a different set of 19 slides on Territorial evolution of Australia which could be composed into an animation. The image discussed here is also on that page, above the separate ones. --Scott Davis Talk 21:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Special status of Norfolk Island?
I've noticed that the Australian Bureau of Statistics excludes Norfolk Island in its population figures for Australia. Also, Norfolk Island doesn't appear to be part of any federal electoral division, although the other territories are. It seems as if Norfolk Island is in some sense an external territory belonging to Australia, closer to a "possession" than an integral part of the country.

It would be illuminating to have the status of Norfolk Island clarified somewhere in this article.

Ben Arnold (talk) 07:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

The languages links could be expanded to more languages to link to
This article already links to several languages, however I think it could link to some more, but for some reason this hasn't happen. Such languages that have articles similar to this one, but aren't already linked to it are: Spanish, Chinese, Polish, among others. Yet from what I can tell the titles of these articles are titled something that translates to "Territorial organization of Australia" however the contents of these articles are really similar to and those linked to this article. I'll like to do this myself but I don't know how to do this. -- Sion8 (talk) 00:58, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Interlanguage links are now managed through Wikidata. You can add another one by using the "Edit links" link below the list of other languages, then the "edit" link next to the title "Wikipedia (n entries)", which will create a new blank entry at the bottom of the list for you to fill in.  --Scott Davis Talk 12:33, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes I tried to do that, but the warning about the fact that one is already linked to another tells me that such article is already likned to others, and I tried to do it from both the English article and Spanish article. Nothing I did would do anything this si the reason I can here as I know I would get someone faster than in the Spanish Wikipedia. -- Sion8 Talk 19:07, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * do the Spanish, Chinese and Polish articles have inter language links to each other? Is there a corresponding English article for that topic? If not, then there is probably a way to combine the two Wikidata concepts if they are really for the same thing. I'm happy to try to help if you post links to the articles and concepts. --Scott Davis Talk 12:20, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Well the articles that are linked to the English are pretty much titled the same as the English, while yes the Spanish, Polish, Chinese, etc. are both liked and titled similarly as what I know the Spanish to mean. And well the only difference I've been able to discern is that the titles of the Spanish and those linked to it translates to "Territorial organization of Australia" while those linked to the English have a similar title to the English. They may have some info that the English doesn't have and vise versa, but hey that's up to the people of those wikipedias. -- Sion8 Talk 01:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Several months later, I just got round to looking at this again. Sorry . I found the article Organización territorial de Australia that looks like the one you refer to. The set of interlanguage links on that article only has one language in common with the set of interlanguage links on this one. That language is Slovak (sk). The article from the "Spanish set" is Administratívne členenie Austrálie which turns out to be a redirect to Štáty a teritóriá Austrálie in the "English set" anyway. Set theory tells me that if all the intelanguage links are right, then the sets should be merged. I'll see if I can work out how. --Scott Davis Talk 12:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added a request at Wikidata Interwiki conflicts but it's number 96 in the 2015 page, so I don't know how soon anyone with knowledge will be able to look at it and resolve it. If they don't merge, hopefully we will get guidance on what the difference is. --Scott Davis Talk 13:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the issue is that there are 2 groups of interlanguage sets: a) "states and territories" (only 1st level of hierarchy); b) "Territorial organization of Australia" (intended for full hierarchy). The problem is that often in B-articles there is info only about 1 level and there are no corresponding A-articles. I'd go with 2 separate groups in hope that there will be both concepts in all wikis. As temporary solution I'd propose to link in corresponding redirects (to make full set of languages in both items), as it is done with Slovak links. P.S. I am not watching en-wiki, if you want to discuss with me, ping me on Wikidata or ru-wiki. --Infovarius (talk) 14:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for responding @Infovarius. I don't think there should be a difference as to how they are titled as like you said they pretty much are dealing on the same topic. If you could like them all as one, 'cause they should be one linking list that would be great. Sion8 (talk) 05:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

"Australian mainland"
What does "Australian mainland" mean? Do most Australians share a common understanding of what "Australian mainland" or "the mainland" means? Plausible contenders include:
 * 1) All the states and the three internal territories. Thus only excluding the external territories.
 * 2) The states and territories located mainly on the continental landmass, including their offshore islands (Category:Islands of Queensland, Category:Islands of New South Wales, etc).  Thus excluding Tasmania and the external territories.
 * 3) The states and territories located mainly on the continental landmass, including their "nearby" islands: Rottnest yes, Lord Howe Island no.
 * 4) The continental landmass, excluding everything in Category:Islands of Australia (except Category:River islands of Australia and Category:Lake islands of Australia within the mainland)

This sentence from the lede...
 * The Australian mainland consists of six federated states (with Tasmania located on an island in close proximity to the mainland) and three federal territories

...seems to contradict itself: is Tasmania part of the mainland or in close proximity to it? Moreover, the wikilinked text "Australian mainland" in the quoted sentence points to Australia (continent), which includes New Guinea and more. By contrast, page-title Australian mainland simply redirects to Australia.

If there is consensus, please edit to make the above consistent. If there is no consensus, then I suggest page-title Australian mainland should be a DAB page. jnestorius(talk) 23:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That phrasing had puzzled me too. What about leaving out the word "mainland" and the distinction between "internal" and "external" territories?  They are difficult to apply geographically and have no constitutional relevance.  Thus, perhaps, the whole lede:

 * Australia is a federation of six states, constitutionally equal with each other despite wide variations in extent and population, and sharing most major governmental functions with a central, federal government. There are also a miscellany of ten territories subordinate to the federal government, some of them within the Australian continent but most of them distant from it. The states and territories together constitute the world's sixth-largest country by total area. Two of the territories, one of which includes the federal capital, have substantial populations and a large measure of self-government;  one territory, with a small population, has limited self-government;  three territories have very small populations and are not self-governing;  the other four territories are uninhabited except, in two cases, by non-permanent scientists.  One of those two is on another continent, the Australian Antarctic Territory.

 * Then remove "External territories" from the first header and, lower down, change to "Jervis Bay Territory has a unique status." Wikiain (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

 * The Australian mainland consists of the continent of Australia, which contains five of the six Australian States, plus the Northern Territory, the Australian Capital Territory, and the Jervis Bay Territory.  Some people insist on a definition of "continent", based on plate tectonics,  in which the "continent of Australia" includes Papua New Guinea, and a whole bunch of islands extending about all the way to Bali.   This would not be the normal definition of "continent of Australia",  or "mainland of Australia",  within Australia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lathamibird (talk • contribs) 09:33, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Following my post (above) on 8 August 2015, which received no response, I boldly went ahead and rewrote the lede so that "mainland" does not include Tasmania. As you say, "continent" is ambiguous.  However, it doesn't seem relevant here, since this article is about the principal components of the political entity "Australia".  Both "continent" and "mainland" are used in the lede to the article "Australia", but wth a distinction that seems clear and is linked to the article "Australia (continent)".  Wikiain (talk) 00:10, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

map of external territories
I didn't like the use of a Robinson projection in Australian external territories.png, so I made a version based on an orthographic projection: Australia states and territories blank.svg. I would like to get some opinions before I replace the image in the article, however. Thanks for any input. --Lasunncty (talk) 07:43, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Should I add labels or numbers, or just leave it blank?
 * Should I crop it to only the minimum area necessary?
 * Any other suggestions?

 * the alternate projection is nice in that it shows all the way to the pole, and presents Australia in the "usual" shape. I think the labels should be included for the outlying islands. Ideally, Coral Sea Islands should be a shaded region in my opinion rather than just a dot as on the current map, and I would label Macquarie Island, even though it is in Tasmania, to highlight the breadth of "Australia". --Scott Davis Talk 13:15, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

 * Here is a labeled version: Australia states and territories labeled.svg. --Lasunncty (talk) 09:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Having heard no further discussion, I have now replaced the old maps with the one I created. --Lasunncty (talk) 07:37, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Does Norfolk reform remove it from list of "external territories"?
Apparently the government reform of Norfolk Island taking affect on July 1 subjects it to New South Wales (NSW) state law, which some media are calling "absorption into NSW". However, voters in Norfolk are becoming constituents not of NSW, but of the Australian Capital Territory. Does anyone know what Norfolk will officially be after July 1? Still some kind of "external territory", and "internal territory", or neither (as would be expected if it's officially "part of NSW")? GeoEvan (talk) 09:20, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that it would still be an external territory, albeit one in which NSW has agreed to provide services to Norfolk Island under an agreement with the Commonwealth. See for example this release: http://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/pf/releases/2016/March/pf037_2016.aspx Basically Norfolk Island will become a non-governing external territory just like all the others, eg Christmas Island and Cocos Island to which Western Australian laws apply but are constitutionally distinct from that state. Brisv e  gas  12:31, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

So what has happened with Norfolk Island's status, is it in or out side the Commonwealth of Australia? I mean they now can vote as part of the ACT, but don't have their local gov't anymore which many aren't happy about. -- Sion8 (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC) Sion8 (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It is still part of the Commonwealth of Australia. Wikiain (talk) 01:10, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Merging languages
I tried to link this article with its Polish version (Podział administracyjny Australii) on Wikidata but I'm having problems with it because the Polish article, along with a few other languages, is already part of Q4494320. Most other-language articles on the topic, including English, are part of Q178712, despite the fact that the two codes are about exactly the same topic. I don't know how to merge the two codes together so can someone please help me with this? Skewb? (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I tried the same by trying to link the Spanish page in 2015, but like yourself, could not do so. Someone tried to help but it seems that never happened. Also those aren't the only languages that need linking because there are other articles in other languages that share this same topic but aren't linked together. -- sion8 Flag_of_Barranquilla.svg talk page 17:54, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I started a discussion in Wikidata to see if the two topics can be merged. --Lasunncty (talk) 23:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you either way, could you provided a link to see the discussion if you don't mind? -- sion8 Flag_of_Barranquilla.svg talk page 23:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, sure. Here: Wikidata:Talk:Q4494320 --Lasunncty (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but from what I saw so far is very preliminary, but hopefully they'll sort this out. -- sion8 Flag_of_Barranquilla.svg talk page 00:59, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Not the federation
I've (mostly) reverted this recent edit, because I believe this sentence is fundamentally wrong:

The states and territories are not "the federation". "Federation" is either a process (which clearly the state/territories are not) or a group. The article is primarily about the states/territories as individual entities, not as a collective group. We have a separate article for the "the federation of six federated states, ...": Federation of Australia. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:07, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Table: internal territories Administrators
Help needed. I've managed some corrections to "internal territories" in the table, but can't get the "Administrator" column right. The entry "none"+ref applies only to the ACT. The NT has an Administrator, Vicki O'Halloran. Jervis Bay Territory should read "none"+ref and the ref would be "Administered by the Commonwealth.". Wikiain (talk) 01:59, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , how does it look now? -- Begoon 03:09, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Bewdy! A cold one for your invisible mending. Wikiain (talk) 05:47, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Federal finance
The article so far is about government in a legal sense. The actual governmental issues as to states and territories, however, are financial. Could editors with the requisite expertise please add a section (or two) on this? Wikiain (talk) 08:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Land area discrepancy
The first table that lists the states and territories has a land area column, that appears to be inaccurate, in that the figures don't match the later "statistics" table in the same article, nor the site in the reference at http://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/national-location-information/dimensions/area-of-australia-states-and-territories. I noticed because the areas summed to ~ 8.1 million km², more than the ~ 7.7 million km² usually given for the whole of Australia.

Jlittlenz (talk) 10:19, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

 * That's because the first table doesn't specify land area it says, area, so those area figures are including water area claimed to be part of the state. The table under the Statistics section specifies land area, so in that table water area isn't counted. Fuse809  (contribs · email · talk · uploads) 16:00, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Scope of this article
Hey all! Just wanted to get some vibes here about how editors of this article are feeling about the scope of this article, as to me, someone who is somewhat removed from the editorial history of this article, this article is pretty much about the governance of Australian states and territories, with a few little general facts thrown in (like population data). This is pretty well demonstrated by the first sentence: "Government in the Commonwealth of Australia is exercised on three levels: federal, states and territories, and local government." Is governance the primary scope of this article?

If so, how would we be feeling about moving this article (this isn't a formal move request, just a feeler) to Governance of Australian states and territories? This would then free up this article title for more concentrated info about the states and territories themselves, like the relationships between them and the Federal government, and more in-depth data and a bit more about the states and territories themselves (foundation, history, colonial past etc).

If not, then maybe there should be a bit of a focus on editing going forward to take governance out of this article, and if warranted, move it to an article of its own (i.e. pretty much ending at the same place as the above, just a different route)? This could involve combining the Governors and administrators of states and territories, Premiers and chief ministers of states and territories, State and territorial parliaments, State and territory supreme courts, and State and territory police forces sections into one more condensed section called Governance which just outlines the overarching structure and the really basic facts about government (number of LGAs, relationships with other states, brief history about politics in the state etc).

What are y'all thoughts? ItsPugle (talk) 13:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * This is currently a very short article, so I don't think there will be much issue expanding it even without moving or reducing the current text. The article already contains information about foundation, colonial past, and history, although it could probably be better organised. I don't fully understand your Governance proposals, as you suggest this article include the relationships between [the states and territories] and the Federal government", which to me falls within the topic of "Governance". There will be a relationship between state and federal courts and police, and between the governors etc. and the federal government. Certainly would agree that the current setup within this article could be greatly improved however. CMD (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Yeah, the article is pretty short, but is really data heavy (a lot of tables and graphs) which could be a bit discouraging to casual readers. Particularly, why are the state/territory flag images so huge. Now that I have a full look at the article, it really does look like the main issue here is organisation and setup of the article. What I was trying to say was that this article seems to be focused on government, rather than the states and territories themselves - which contradicts a bit with the article title. This could be looked at either way though: do we include more details about government and formalise a section about it, or do we try to remove the focus on government?

 * In terms of organisation, how would this look as an alternative? ItsPugle (talk) 13:40, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Geography of Australia
 * Borders
 * States
 * New South Wales
 * Victoria
 * Queensland
 * Western Australia
 * South Australia
 * Tasmania
 * Territories
 * Australian Capital Territory
 * Northern Territory
 * External territories
 * Governance
 * Governors and Administrators
 * Premiers and Chief Ministers
 * Local Government Areas
 * Legislature
 * Judicial
 * Policing
 * Statistics
 * State and territory reference codesialing codes

 * I think it's difficult to separate Governance out of the topic, as the existence of States and Territories is in itself a form of Government. I would suggest instead of a "Governance" header, cover the various topics in their own section. Governors/Administrators/Premiers/Chief Ministers could be put into an "Administration" section, which could include text explaining the various roles. Legislature and Judicial could be bundled here as well. Policing I agree could be kept in a separate section, as there's a lot that could be said about how the different levels of police interact. A section on Local Government Areas could work so long as the focus is kept on how the states organise them. We could also adapt your earlier idea and create a section called "Relationship with the Federal Government", or perhaps spread that information throughout the various sections. I don't think a specific section will be needed for each state and territory, as such information would likely all be quite specific and not really expand much on the overall topic. I would however keep the list/table with the basic information for each, and rework the current relevant information into a "History" section which charts the development of the current states and territories and their shift into the current political system. CMD (talk) 14:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Great! How does this look as an alternative layout:

 * Geography of Australia
 * Borders
 * States and territories
 * External territories
 * Australian Antarctic Territory
 * Administration This would start with a table listing the Chief Executive (Premier/Chief Minister/Administrators) and Governors
 * Local Government
 * Legislature and judicial This would have a table listing the legislative chamber(s) and courts
 * Relationships with the Australian Government
 * States
 * Territories Since territories don't have the same influence with the federal government (Senate seats etc), there might be enough different content for this - if not, this relationships section won't have any subheadings
 * Security This is for policing and intelligence etc
 * Statistics
 * History
 * State and territory reference codes
 * Looks decent. I suspect there will definitely be enough for a separate territories subsection, especially as they have differing relationships. I would only suggest moving History much higher, before Administration, so that it provides context to the current relationships. CMD (talk) 12:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the work you've done to organize this article. There is a lot less redundancy now and it is much easier to follow. One comment I have is that I think I prefer having the larger map rather than just the small one in the infobox. It is difficult to see the labels and some of the smaller divisions. Is it possible to make the infobox bigger? Or could we use the unlabeled version in the infobox and have the larger labeled one below as it was before? --Lasunncty (talk) 09:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the praise! There's still more to be done in terms of the governors, administrators, parliaments etc sections, but nonetheless, progress is progress. I'm a bit hesitant to make the infobox any wider, since it then is inconsistent with other aside elements, but I definately agree that the image it 'zoomed out' too far to be overly helpful. What if we had two images: one that was mainland Australia + Tasmania, and one that was the Australian Antarctic Terrtitory? ItsPugle (please use  on reply) 23:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What about keeping the infobox small and restoring the larger version of the map below next to the list? --Lasunncty (talk) 09:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm easy-breazy with whatever really! ItsPugle (please use  on reply) 09:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Main map
Why does the main map for this article suck so badly? When you look at the articles for other countries, it shows the country as the main feature of the image, NOT the entire globe. This is unnecessary, and a little absurd. Despite the fact that it is considered a continent, the article is about the states and territories, so they should be the main feature of the map. Gil gosseyn (talk) 21:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, Australia's territory does expand beyond just mainland Australia. The Australian Antarctic Territory and external territories like the Ashmore and Cartier Islands are still part of Australia, and important to Australia's regional politics and sovereignty. Nonetheless, there is slightly excessive geography at the top - we probably don't need the countries above Papua New Guinea, but it's okay in my opinion. ItsPugle (please use  on reply) 03:33, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

"The ACT and Northern Territory for the most part operate indistinguishably from states."
I don't think this is correct. The federal government and the federal parliament have much more control over the ACT and the NT.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:13, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Capitals of territories
Jervis Bay Territory has no capital. The note above the table says that individual territory articles have references, but Jervis Bay Territory article mentions no capital. In the next table, "External territories," four territories are listed as having capital "None," which is correct, but then there's an unexplained italicized location in parentheses following "none." Nothing explains what the thing in parentheses is supposed to be. If it's meant to be some sort of quasi-capital, again, there's no reference for any of them. "None" seems sufficient in all cases. Holy (talk) 04:49, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

 * This edit is the reason for the confusion. --Lasunncty (talk) 06:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and undid the edit mentioned above. --Lasunncty (talk) 01:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Rudd proposal for new external territories
I've removed this from another article, but perhaps it belongs on this one.--Pharos (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Statistical Divisions sub-section
I wonder about the relevance of this sub-section to the article. It's basically about the sub-state Main Structure of the Australian Statistical Geography Standard. I have a draft of a more complete article about the ASGS, which (once released as an article) could be referred to if felt necessary, but I think the whole sub-section can be deleted. Innesw (talk) 11:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree, this section doesn't really seem relevant to this article. --Lasunncty (talk) 03:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree as well, belongs at Australian Bureau of Statistics in the meantime. CMD (talk) 09:42, 3 February 2024 (UTC)


text:
Talk:American political scandals

{{WikiProject United States|class=Redirect|importance=NA|}

Untitled
When was the Louisana Purchase a political scandal? I know Jefferson technically went againist the Constitution by agreeing to pay France money without mandate from Congress, but a scandal?. Nothing on the current Louisiana Purchase page mentions a scandal. - Eean

I agree--I'm no historian, so maybe I just need to be educated more--how was the Louisiana Purchase a scandal? --LMS

 * I too am puzzled. Unless there is explanation of why this should be concidered a scandal, I think the Louisiana Purchase should be removed from this list. Infrogmation 23:56 Nov 8, 2002 (UTC)

What we really need is a historian to write an article on the history of American political scandals. A list like this looks kinda amateurish, y'know. --LMS

 * I'm not sure why it was considered a scandal either, and I would advocate removing it in lieu of some explanation. My guess (and this is only a guess) is that it was classified this way because it was a controversial action by a President who up to that point believed that the Federal government didn't have the power to do things like make such a purchase.  But while that would have made for ideological conflict, I don't see how that would constitute a scandal.  Otherwise, Nixon's use of wage and price controls would also be have to be considered a political scandal.  :) [[User:soulpatch|soulpatch]

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:American political scandals


text:
Angus, Scotland

Angus (Angus; Aonghas) is one of the 32 local government council areas of Scotland, a registration county and a lieutenancy area. The council area borders Aberdeenshire, Dundee City and Perth and Kinross. Main industries include agriculture and fishing. Global pharmaceuticals company GSK has a significant presence in Montrose in the east of the county.

Angus was historically a province, and later a sheriffdom and county (known officially as Forfarshire from the 18th century until 1928), bordering Kincardineshire to the north-east, Aberdeenshire to the north and Perthshire to the west; southwards it faced Fife across the Firth of Tay; these remain the borders of Angus, minus Dundee which now forms its own small separate council area. Angus remains a registration county and a lieutenancy area. In 1975 some of its administrative functions were transferred to the council district of the Tayside Region, and in 1995 further reform resulted in the establishment of the unitary Angus Council.

Etymology
The name "Angus" indicates the territory of the eighth-century Pictish king of that name.

Prehistory
The area that now comprises Angus has been occupied since at least the Neolithic period. Material taken from postholes from an enclosure at Douglasmuir, near Friockheim, about five miles north of Arbroath has been radiocarbon dated to around 3500 BC. The function of the enclosure is unknown, but may have been for agriculture or for ceremonial purposes.

Bronze Age archaeology is to be found in abundance in the area. Examples include the short-cist burials found near West Newbigging, about a mile to the North of the town. These burials included pottery urns, a pair of silver discs and a gold armlet. Iron Age archaeology is also well represented, for example in the souterrain nearby Warddykes cemetery and at West Grange of Conan, as well as the better-known examples at Carlungie and Ardestie.

Medieval and later history
The county is traditionally associated with the Pictish territory of Circin, which is thought to have encompassed Angus and the Mearns. Bordering it were the kingdoms of Cé (Mar and Buchan) to the North, Fotla (Atholl) to the West, and Fib (Fife) to the South. The most visible remnants of the Pictish age are the numerous sculptured stones that can be found throughout Angus. Of particular note are the collections found at Aberlemno, St Vigeans, Kirriemuir and Monifieth.

Angus is first recorded as one of the provinces of Scotland in 937, when Dubacan, the Mormaer of Angus, is recorded in the Chronicle of the Kings of Alba as having died at the Battle of Brunanburh.

The signing of the Declaration of Arbroath at Arbroath Abbey in 1320 marked Scotland's establishment as an independent nation. Partly on this basis, Angus is marketed as the birthplace of Scotland. It is an area of rich history from Pictish times onwards. Notable historic sites in addition to Arbroath Abbey include Glamis Castle, Arbroath Signal Tower museum and the Bell Rock Lighthouse, described as one of the Seven Wonders of the Industrial World.

Geography
Angus can be split into three geographic areas. To the north and west, the topography is mountainous. This is the area of the Grampian Mountains, Mounth hills and Five Glens of Angus, which is sparsely populated and where the main industry is hill farming. Glas Maol – the highest point in Angus at 1,068 m (3,504 ft) – can be found here, on the tripoint boundary with Perthshire and Aberdeenshire. To the south and east the topography consists of rolling hills (such as the Sidlaws) bordering the sea; this area is well populated, with the larger towns. In between lies Strathmore (the Great Valley), which is a fertile agricultural area noted for the growing of potatoes, soft fruit and the raising of Aberdeen Angus cattle.

Montrose in the north east of the county is notable for its tidal basin and wildlife. Angus's coast is fairly regular, the most prominent features being the headlands of Scurdie Ness and Buddon Ness. The main bodies of water in the county are Loch Lee, Loch Brandy, Carlochy, Loch Wharral, Den of Ogil Reservoir, Loch of Forfar, Loch Fithie, Rescobie Loch, Balgavies Loch, Crombie Reservoir, Monikie Reservoirs, Long Loch, Lundie Loch, Loch of Kinnordy, Loch of Lintrathen, Backwater Reservoir, Auchintaple Loch, Loch Shandra.

Population structure
In the 2001 census, the population of Angus was recorded as 108,400. 20.14% were under the age of 16, 63.15% were between 16 and 65 and 18.05% were aged 65 or above.

Of the 16 to 74 age group, 32.84% had no formal qualifications, 27.08% were educated to 'O' Grade/Standard Grade level, 14.38% to Higher level, 7.64% to HND or equivalent level and 18.06% to degree level.

Language in Angus
The most recent available census results (2001) show that Gaelic is spoken by 0.45% of the Angus population. This, similar to other lowland areas, is lower than the national average of 1.16%. These figures are self-reported and are not broken down into levels of fluency.

Meanwhile, the 2011 census found that 38.4% of the population in Angus can speak Scots, above the Scottish average of 30.1%. This puts Angus as the council area with the sixth highest proficiency in Scots, behind only Shetland, Orkney, Moray, Aberdeenshire, and East Ayrshire.

Historically, the dominant language in Angus was Pictish until the sixth to seventh centuries AD when the area became progressively gaelicised, with Pictish extinct by the mid-ninth century. Gaelic/Middle Irish began to retreat from lowland areas in the late-eleventh century and was absent from the Eastern lowlands by the fourteenth century. It was replaced there by Middle Scots, the contemporary local South Northern dialect of Modern Scots, while Gaelic persisted as a majority language in the Highlands and Hebrides until the 19th century.

Angus Council are planning to raise the status of Gaelic in the county by adopting a series of measures, including bilingual road signage, communications, vehicle livery and staffing.

Local government
The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 established a uniform system of county councils in Scotland and realigned the boundaries of many of Scotland's counties. Subsequently, Angus County Council was created in 1890. In May 1975 the county council was abolished and its functions were transferred to Tayside Regional Council: the local area was served by Angus District Council. The county council was based at the County Buildings in Market Street in Forfar.

Angus Council is one of the 32 local government council areas of Scotland after the two-tier local government council was abolished and Angus was established as one of the replacement single-tier Council Areas in 1996. As of May 2017 there are 28 seats on the council. From the May 2022 elections the seats are held as follows – SNP 13, Independent 7, Conservative 7, Labour 1.

The boundaries of the present council area are the same as those of the historic county minus the Dundee City. The council area borders Aberdeenshire, Dundee City and Perth and Kinross.

Structure
The council's civic head is the Provost of Angus. There have been seven Provosts since its establishment in 1996 – Frances Duncan, Bill Middleton, Ruth Leslie-Melville, Helen Oswald, Alex King, Ronnie Proctor and Brian Boyd. Angus is also a lieutenancy area; the Lord Lieutenant of Angus is appointed by the monarch and is unconnected to the council.

The council has had four Chief Executives since its formation – Sandy Watson 1996–2006, David Sawers 2006–2011, Richard Stiff 2011–2017 and Margo Williamson 2017 to date. Margo Williamson is the first female Chief Executive since the council was formed.

Leadership
The role of provost is largely ceremonial in Angus. Political leadership is instead provided by the leader of the council. The leaders since 1996 have been:

Premises
Council meetings are generally held at Forfar Town and County Hall at The Cross in the centre of Forfar. In 2007 the council moved its main offices to a new building called Angus House on Silvie Way in the Orchardbank Business Park on the outskirts of Forfar.

Elections
Election results since 1995 have been as follows:

Wards
Angus is divided into 8 wards:

Community council areas
Angus is divided into 25 community council areas and all apart from Friockheim district have an active council. The areas are: Aberlemno; Auchterhouse; Carnoustie; City of Brechin & District; Ferryden & Craig; Friockheim & District; Glamis; Hillside, Dun, & Logie Pert; Inverarity; Inveresk; Kirriemuir; Kirriemuir Landward East; Kirriemuir Landward West; Letham & District; Lunanhead & District; Monifieth; Monikie & Newbigging; Montrose; Muirhead, Birkhill and Liff; Murroes & Wellbank; Newtyle & Eassie; Royal Burgh of Arbroath; Royal Burgh of Forfar; Strathmartine; and Tealing.

UK Parliament
Angus is represented by three MPs for the UK Parliament.

 * Angus — covers most of the council area, is represented by Dave Doogan of the Scottish National Party.
 * Dundee East — mainly covers Dundee, however a small portion of eastern Sidlaw and Carnoustie areas are part of the constituency, is represented by Stewart Hosie of the Scottish National Party.
 * Dundee West — mainly covers Dundee, however a small portion of western Sidlaw area is part of the constituency, is represented by Chris Law of the Scottish National Party.

Scottish Parliament
Angus is represented by two constituency MSPs for the Scottish Parliament.

 * Angus North and Mearns — covers the north of Angus and a southern portion of Aberdeenshire, is represented by Mairi Gougeon of the Scottish National Party.
 * Angus South — covers the south of Angus, is represented by Graeme Dey of the Scottish National Party.

In addition to the two constituency MSPs, Angus is also represented by seven MSPs for the North East Scotland electoral region.

Transport
The Edinburgh-Aberdeen railway line runs along the coast, through Dundee and the towns of Monifieth, Carnoustie, Arbroath and Montrose.

There is a small airport at Dundee, which at present operates flights to London and Belfast.

Settlements
Arbroath is the largest town in the modern county, followed by Forfar, the county town and administrative centre, and Montrose.

Largest settlements by population:

Historic parishes
Forfarshire was divided into parishes, some of which share the name with current settlements:

• Aberlemno

• Airlie

• Alyth (part of)

• Arbirlot

• Arbroath

• Auchterhouse

• Barry

• Brechin

• Careston

• Carmyllie

• Clova

• Cortachy

• Coupar

• Craig

• Dun

• Dundee

• Dunnichen

• Eassie

• Edzell

• Farnell

• Fern

• Forfar

• Fowlis Easter

• Glamis

• Glenisla

• Guthrie

• Inverarity

• Inverkeilor

• Kettins

• Kingoldrum

• Kinnell

• Kinnettles

• Kirkden/Friockheim

• Kirriemuir

• Lethnot

• Liff

• Lintrathen

• Lochlee

• Logie Pert

• Lunan

• Lundie

• Mains and Strathmartine

• Maryton

• Menmuir

• Monifieth

• Monikie

• Montrose

• Murroes/Muirhouse

• Nevay

• Newtyle

• Oathlaw

• Panbride

• Rescobie

• Ruthven

• St Vigeans

• Stracathro

• Tannadice

• Tealing

Education
Secondary schools in Angus:
 * Arbroath Academy
 * Arbroath High School
 * Brechin High School
 * Carnoustie High School
 * Forfar Academy
 * Monifieth High School
 * Montrose Academy
 * Webster's High School

Places of interest

 * Aberlemno Sculptured Stones
 * Arbroath Abbey
 * Barry Mill
 * Brechin Cathedral
 * Brechin Castle
 * Brechin Round Tower
 * Caledonian Railway (Brechin)
 * Cairngorms National Park
 * Corrie Fee National Nature Reserve
 * Eassie Stone
 * Edzell Castle
 * Glamis Castle
 * Glenesk Folk Museum
 * House of Dun
 * Loch of Kinnordy Nature Reserve
 * Meffan Institute
 * Monboddo House
 * Montrose Air Station Heritage Centre
 * Montrose Basin Nature Reserve
 * Montrose Museum

Sister areas

 * 🇨🇳 – Yantai, Shandong, China.

Surnames
Most common surnames in Angus (Forfarshire) at the time of the United Kingdom Census of 1881:

 * 1) Smith
 * 2) Robertson
 * 3) Anderson
 * 4) Stewart
 * 5) Scott
 * 6) Mitchell
 * 7) Brown
 * 8) Duncan
 * 9) Milne
 * 10) Thomson

title: Angus, Scotland