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Hiberno-English

Hiberno-English ( from Hibernia "Ireland") or Irish English (IrE), also formerly sometimes called Anglo-Irish, is the set of English dialects native to the island of Ireland, including both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

In the Republic of Ireland, English is one of two official languages, along with the Irish language, and is the country's de facto working language. Irish English's writing standards, such as its spelling, align with British English. However, Irish English's diverse accents and some of its grammatical structures and vocabulary are unique, with some influences deriving from the Irish language and some notably conservative phonological features: features no longer common in the accents of England or North America.

Phonologists today often divide Irish English into four or five overarching dialects or accents: Ulster accents, West and South-West Irish accents (like Cork accents), various Dublin accents, and a non-regional standard accent expanding since only the last quarter of the twentieth century (outside of Northern Ireland).

History
Middle English, as well as a small elite that spoke Anglo-Norman, was brought to Ireland as a result of the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in the late 12th century. The remnants of which survived as the Yola language and Fingallian dialects, which is not mutually comprehensible with Modern English. A second wave of the English language was brought to Ireland in the 16th-century Elizabethan Early Modern period, making that variety of English spoken in Ireland the oldest outside of Great Britain. It remains phonologically more conservative today than many other dialects of English.

Initially, Norman English was mainly spoken in an area known as the Pale around Dublin, with largely the Irish language spoken throughout the rest of the country. Some small pockets of speakers remained, who predominantly continued to use the English of that time. Because of their sheer isolation, these dialects developed into later, now-extinct, English-related varieties, known as Yola in Wexford and Fingallian in Fingal, Dublin. These were no longer mutually intelligible with other English varieties. By the Tudor period, Irish culture and language had regained most of the territory lost to the invaders: even in the Pale, "all the common folk… for the most part are of Irish birth, Irish habit, and of Irish language".

The Tudor conquest and colonisation of Ireland in the 16th century led to a second wave of immigration by English speakers, along with the forced suppression and decline in the status and use of the Irish language. By the mid-19th century, English had become the majority language spoken in the country. It has retained this status to the present day, with even those whose first language is Irish being fluent in English as well. Today, there is little more than one per cent of the population who speaks the Irish language natively, though it is required to be taught in all state-funded schools. Of the 40% of the population who self-identified as speaking some Irish in 2016, 4% speak Irish daily outside the education system.

A German traveller, Ludolf von Münchhausen, visited the Pale in Dublin in 1591. He says of the pale in regards to the language spoken there: "Little Irish is spoken; there are even some people here who cannot speak Irish at all". He may be mistaken, but If this account is true, the language of Dublin in the 1590s was English, not Irish. And yet again, Albert Jouvin travelled to Ireland in 1668; he says of the pale and the east coast, "In the inland parts of Ireland, they speak a particular language, but in the greatest part of the towns and villages on the sea coast, only English is spoken". A Tour of Ireland in 1775 By Richard Twiss (writer) says of the language spoken in Dublin "as at present almost all the peasants speak the English language, they converse with as much propriety as any persons of their class in England"

Ulster English
Ulster English, or Northern Irish English, here refers collectively to the varieties of the Ulster province, including Northern Ireland and neighbouring counties outside of Northern Ireland, which has been influenced by Ulster Irish as well as the Scots language, brought over by Scottish settlers during the Plantation of Ulster. Its main subdivisions are Mid-Ulster English, South Ulster English and Ulster Scots, the latter of which is arguably a separate language. Ulster varieties distinctly pronounce:
 * An ordinarily grammatically structured (i.e. non-topicalised) declarative sentence, often, with a rising intonation at the end of the sentence (the type of intonation pattern that other English speakers usually associate with questions).
 * as lowered, in the general vicinity of.
 * as fronted and slightly rounded, more closely approaching.
 * and as merged in the general vicinity of.
 * with a backed on-glide and fronted off-glide, putting it in the vicinity of.
 * as, particularly before voiceless consonants.
 * as, though nowadays commonly or even  when in a closed syllable.
 * , almost always, as a slightly raised monophthong.
 * A lack of Happy-tensing; with the final vowel of happy, holy, money, etc. as.
 * Syllable-final occasionally as "dark ", though especially before a consonant.

West and South-West Irish English
West and South-West Irish English here refers to broad varieties of Ireland's West and South-West Regions. Accents of both regions are known for:
 * The backing and slight lowering of towards.
 * The more open starting point for and  of  and, respectively.
 * The preservation of as monophthongal.
 * and, respectively, as and.
 * In the West, and  may respectively be pronounced by older speakers as  and  before a consonant, so fist sounds like fished, castle like Cashel, and arrest like "arresht".

South-West Irish English (often known, by specific county, as Cork English, Kerry English, or Limerick English) also features two major defining characteristics of its own. One is the pin–pen merger: the raising of dress to when before  or  (as in again or pen). The other is the intonation pattern of a slightly higher pitch followed by a significant drop in pitch on stressed long-vowel syllables (across multiple syllables or even within a single one), which is popularly heard in rapid conversation, by speakers of other English dialects, as a noticeable kind of undulating "sing-song" pattern.

Dublin English
Dublin English is highly internally diverse and refers collectively to the Irish English varieties immediately surrounding and within the metropolitan area of Dublin. Modern-day Dublin English largely lies on a phonological continuum, ranging from a more traditional, lower-prestige, local urban accent on the one end, to a more recently developing, higher-prestige, non-local, regional and even supra-regional accent on the other end. Most advanced characteristics of Dublin English first emerged in the late 1980s and 1990s.

The accent that most strongly uses the traditional working-class features has been labelled by linguists as local Dublin English. Most speakers from Dublin and its suburbs, have accent features falling variously along the entire middle, as well as the newer end of the spectrum, which together form what is called non-local Dublin English. It is spoken by middle- and upper-class natives of Dublin and the greater eastern Irish region surrounding the city. A subset of this variety, whose middle-class speakers mostly range in the middle section of the continuum, is called mainstream Dublin English.

Mainstream Dublin English has become the basis of an accent that has otherwise become supra-regional, everywhere except in the north of the country. The majority of Dubliners born since the 1980s, led particularly by women, has shifted towards the most innovative non-local accent, here called new Dublin English, which has gained ground over mainstream Dublin English and which is the most extreme variety in rejecting the local accent's traditional features. The varieties at either extreme of the spectrum, local and new Dublin English, are both discussed in further detail below. In the most general terms, all varieties of Dublin English have the following identifying sounds that are often distinct from the rest of Ireland, pronouncing:
 * as fronted or raised . Aitch being pronounced as haitch, or h-adding, is not uncommon in Dublin English, and "harass" being pronounced as a homophone of "Harris" are also common features of Dublin English.
 * as retracted or centralised.
 * as a diphthong in the range (local to non-local) of.

Local Dublin English
Local Dublin English (or popular Dublin English) here refers to a traditional, broad, working-class variety spoken in the Republic of Ireland's capital city of Dublin. It is the only Irish English variety that in earlier history was non-rhotic; however, it is today weakly rhotic. Known for diphthongisation of the and  vowels, the local Dublin accent is also known for a phenomenon called "vowel breaking", in which, ,  and  in closed syllables are "broken" into two syllables, approximating , , , and , respectively.

New Dublin English
Evolving as a fashionable outgrowth of the mainstream non-local Dublin English, new Dublin English, also, advanced Dublin English and, formerly, fashionable Dublin English, is a youthful variety that originally began in the early 1990s among the "avant-garde" and now those aspiring to a non-local "urban sophistication". New Dublin English itself, first associated with affluent and middle-class inhabitants of southside Dublin, is probably now spoken by a majority of Dubliners born since the 1980s.

It has replaced, yet was largely influenced by, moribund D4 English, often known as "Dublin 4" or "DART speak" or, mockingly, "Dortspeak", which originated around the 1970s from Dubliners who rejected traditional notions of Irishness, regarding themselves as more trendy and sophisticated. However, particular aspects of the D4 accent became quickly noticed and ridiculed as sounding affected, causing these features to fall out of fashion by the 1990s.

New Dublin English can have a fur–fair merger, horse–hoarse, and witch–which mergers, while resisting the traditionally Irish English cot–caught merger. This accent has since spread south to parts of east County Wicklow, west to parts of north County Kildare and parts of south County Meath. The accent can be heard among the middle to upper classes in most major cities in the Republic today.

Standard Irish English
Supraregional Southern Irish English, sometimes, simply Supraregional Irish English or Standard Irish English, refers to a variety spoken particularly by educated and middle- or higher-class Irish people, crossing regional boundaries throughout all of the Republic of Ireland, except the north. As mentioned earlier, mainstream Dublin English of the early- to mid-twentieth century is the direct influence and catalyst for this variety, coming about by the suppression of certain markedly Irish features, and retention of other Irish features, as well as the adoption of certain standard British (i.e., non-Irish) features.

The result is a configuration of features that is still unique. In other words, this accent is not simply a wholesale shift towards British English. Most speakers born in the 1980s or later are showing fewer features of this late-twentieth-century mainstream supraregional form and more characteristics aligning to a rapidly spreading new Dublin accent. See more above, under "Non-local Dublin English".

Ireland's supraregional dialect pronounces:
 * as quite open.
 * along a possible spectrum, with innovative particularly more common before voiced consonants, notably including.
 * as starting fronter and often more raised than other dialects:.
 * may be, with a backer vowel than in other Irish accents, though still relatively fronted.
 * as.
 * as, almost always separate from , keeping words like war and wore, or horse and hoarse, pronounced distinctly.
 * as.
 * as a diphthong, approaching, as in the mainstream United States, or , as in mainstream England.
 * as higher, fronter, and often rounder.

Overview of pronunciation and phonology
The following charts list the vowels typical of each Irish English dialect as well as the several distinctive consonants of Irish English. Phonological characteristics of overall Irish English are given as well as categorisations into five major divisions of Hiberno-English: Ulster; West and South-West Ireland; local Dublin; new Dublin; and supraregional (southern) Ireland. Features of mainstream non-local Dublin English fall on a range between "local Dublin" and "new Dublin".

Monophthongs
The following monophthongs are defining characteristics of Irish English: Footnotes:
 * is typically centralised in the mouth and often rounder than other standard English varieties, such as Received Pronunciation in England or General American in the United States.
 * There is a partial trap-bath split in most Irish English varieties (cf. Variation in Australian English).
 * There is inconsistency regarding the lot–cloth split and the cot–caught merger; certain Irish English dialects have these phenomena while others do not. The cot-caught merger by definition rules out the presence of the lot-cloth split.
 * An epenthetic schwa is often inserted between sonorants, e.g. film and form, due to the influence of the Irish language.
 * The words any and many are often exceptionally pronounced with, i.e. rhyme with Annie and Danny.

In southside Dublin's once-briefly fashionable "Dublin 4" (or "Dortspeak") accent, the " and broad " set becomes rounded as.

In South-West Ireland, before  or  is raised to.

Due to the phenomenon of "vowel breaking" in local Dublin accents, and  may be realised as  and  in closed syllables.

Other notes:

 * In some highly conservative Irish English varieties, words spelled with and pronounced with  in RP are pronounced with, for example meat, beat, and leaf.
 * In words like took where the spelling usually represents, conservative speakers may use . This is most common in local Dublin and the speech of north-east Leinster.

Diphthongs
The following diphthongs are defining characteristics of Irish English: Footnotes: Due to the phenomenon of "vowel breaking" local Dublin accents, and  may be realised as  and  in closed syllables.
 * The diphthong, as in ow or doubt, may start more forward in the mouth in the east (namely, Dublin) and supraregionally; however, it may be further backwards throughout the entire rest of the country. In Ulster, the second element is particularly forward, as in Scotland.
 * The diphthong, as in boy or choice, generally starts off lower outside of Ulster.
 * The diphthong, as in rain or bay, is most commonly realised as monophthongal . The words gave and came often have  instead, i.e. rhyme with "Kev" and "them".

Consonants
The consonants of Hiberno-English mostly align with the typical English consonant sounds. However, a few Irish English consonants have distinctive, varying qualities. The following consonant features are defining characteristics of Hiberno-English: Footnotes:
 * Th-stopping: and  are pronounced as stops,  and, making then and den as well as thin and tin homophones. Some accents, realise them as dental stops  and do not merge them with alveolar , i.e. making tin  and thin  a minimal pair. In Ulster they are  and.
 * Rhoticity: The pronunciation of historical is universal in Irish English, as in General American (but not Received Pronunciation), i.e.  is always pronounced, even word finally and before consonants (e.g. here, cart, or surf).
 * Yod-dropping after, and , e.g. new , lieutenant , and sue , and Yod-coalescence after  and , e.g. duty  and tune.
 * Lack of H-dropping and occurrence of where it is permitted in Irish but excluded in other dialects of English, such as word-medially before an unstressed vowel (e.g. Haughey ) and word-finally (e.g. McGrath ). The name haitch  for  is standard in the Republic of Ireland and among Catholics in Northern Ireland, while Prostestants in Northern Ireland use aitch.
 * Syllable final and intervocalic is pronounced uniquely in most Hiberno-English; the most common pronunciation is as a "slit fricative".
 * The phoneme is almost always of a "light" or "clear" quality (i.e. not velarised), unlike Received Pronunciation, which uses both a clear and a dark "L" sound, or General American, which pronounces all "L" sounds as dark.

In traditional, conservative Ulster English, and  are palatalised before an open front vowel.

Local Dublin features consonant cluster reduction, so that plosives occurring after fricatives or sonorants may be left unpronounced, resulting, for example, in "poun(d)" and "las(t)".

In extremely traditional and conservative accents (e.g. Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh and Jackie Healy-Rae), prevocalic can also be an alveolar flap,. may be guttural (uvular, ) in north-east Leinster.

is used here to represent the voiceless alveolar non-sibilant fricative, sometimes known as a "slit fricative", which is apico-alveolar.

Overall, and  are being increasingly merged in supraregional Irish English, for example, making wine and whine homophones, as in most varieties of English around the world.

Vowels + combinations
The following vowels + combinations are defining characteristics of Hiberno-English: Footnotes:
 * Lack of horse–hoarse merger, i.e. distinction between and, so that e.g. horse and hoarse do not rhyme in most Irish accents.
 * vowel realised more forward in the mouth in comparison to most varieties of English.

In southside Dublin's "Dublin 4" (or "Dortspeak") accent, is realised as.

In non-local Dublin's more recently emerging (or "new Dublin") accent, and  may both be realised more rounded as.

The nurse mergers have not occurred in local Dublin, West/South-West, and other very conservative and traditional Irish English which retain a two-way distinction, versus, unlike most English dialects which have merged historical ,  and  to ,  in the case of non-local Dublin, supraregional, and younger Irish accents. The distribution of and  is as follows:  occurs when spelled  and  (e.g. urn and word),  after alveolar stops (e.g. dirt), and after labial consonants (e.g. fern);  is occurs in all other situations. There are apparent exceptions to these rules; John C. Wells describes prefer and per as, despite the vowel in question following a labial. The distribution of versus  is listed below in some example words:

 * certain
 * chirp
 * circle
 * earn
 * earth
 * girl
 * germ
 * heard or herd
 * Hertz
 * irk
 * tern

 * bird
 * dirt
 * first
 * hurts
 * murder
 * nurse
 * turn
 * third or turd
 * urn
 * work
 * world

In a rare few local Dublin varieties that are non-rhotic, is either lowered to  or backed and raised to.

The distinction between and  is widely preserved in Ireland, so that, for example, horse and hoarse are not merged in most Irish English dialects; however, they are usually merged in Belfast and new Dublin.

In local Dublin may be realised as. For some speakers may merge with.

Loan words from Irish
A number of Irish language loan words are used in Hiberno-English, particularly in an official state capacity. For example, the head of government is the Taoiseach, the deputy head is the Tánaiste, the parliament is the Oireachtas and its lower house is Dáil Éireann. Less formally, people also use loan words in day-to-day speech, although this has been on the wane in recent decades and among the young.

Derived words from Irish
Another group of Hiberno-English words are those derived from the Irish language. Some are words in English that have entered into general use, while others are unique to Ireland. These words and phrases are often Anglicised versions of words in Irish or direct translations into English. In the latter case, they often give meaning to a word or phrase that is generally not found in wider English use.

Derived words from Old and Middle English
Another class of vocabulary found in Hiberno-English are words and phrases common in Old and Middle English, but which have since become obscure or obsolete in the modern English language generally. Hiberno-English has also developed particular meanings for words that are still in common use in English generally.

Other words
In addition to the three groups above, there are also additional words and phrases whose origin is disputed or unknown. While this group may not be unique to Ireland, their usage is not widespread, and could be seen as characteristic of Irish English.

Grammar and syntax
The syntax of the Irish language is quite different from that of English. Various aspects of Irish syntax have influenced Hiberno-English, though many of these idiosyncrasies are disappearing in suburban areas and among the younger population.

Another feature of Hiberno-English that sets it apart is the retention of words and phrases from Old and Middle English that are not retained otherwise in Modern English.

Reduplication
Reduplication is an alleged trait of Hiberno-English strongly associated with Stage Irish and Hollywood films.

 * the Irish ar bith corresponds to English 'at all', so the stronger ar chor ar bith gives rise to the form "at all at all".
 * "I've no time at all at all."
 * ar eagla go ... (lit. 'on fear that ...') means 'in case ...'. The variant ar eagla na heagla, (lit. 'on fear of fear') implies the circumstances are more unlikely. The corresponding Hiberno-English phrases are 'to be sure' and the very rarely used "to be sure to be sure". In this context, these are not, as might be thought, disjuncts meaning "certainly"; they could better be translated 'in case' and 'just in case'. Nowadays normally spoken with conscious levity.
 * "I brought some cash in case I saw a bargain, and my credit card to be sure to be sure."

Yes and no
Irish has no words that directly translate as 'yes' or 'no', and instead repeats the verb used in the question, negated if necessary, to answer. Hiberno-English uses "yes" and "no" less frequently than other English dialects as speakers can repeat the verb, positively or negatively, instead of (or in redundant addition to) using "yes" or "no".

 * "Are you coming home soon?" – "I am."
 * "Is your mobile charged?" – "It isn't."

This is not limited only to the verb to be: it is also used with to have when used as an auxiliary; and, with other verbs, the verb to do is used. This is most commonly used for intensification, especially in Ulster English.
 * "This is strong stuff, so it is."
 * "We won the game, so we did."

Recent past construction
Irish indicates recency of an action by adding "after" to the present continuous (a verb ending in "-ing"), a construction known as the "hot news perfect" or "after perfect". The idiom for "I had done X when I did Y" is "I was after doing X when I did Y", modelled on the Irish usage of the compound prepositions i ndiaidh, tar éis, and in éis: bhí mé tar éis / i ndiaidh / in éis X a dhéanamh, nuair a rinne mé Y. A similar construction is seen where exclamation is used in describing a recent event:
 * "Why did you hit him?" – "He was after giving me cheek." (he had [just beforehand] been cheeky to me).
 * "I'm after hitting him with the car!" Táim tar éis é a bhualadh leis an gcarr!
 * "She's after losing five stone in five weeks!" Tá sí tar éis cúig chloch a chailleadh i gcúig seachtaine!

When describing less astonishing or significant events, a structure resembling the German perfect can be seen:
 * "I have the car fixed." Tá an carr deisithe agam.
 * "I have my breakfast eaten." Tá mo bhricfeasta ite agam.

This correlates with an analysis of "H1 Irish" proposed by Adger & Mitrovic, in a deliberate parallel to the status of German as a V2 language.

Recent past construction has been directly adopted into Newfoundland English, where it is common in both formal and casual register. In rural areas of the Avalon peninsula, where Newfoundland Irish was spoken until the early 20th century, it is the grammatical standard for describing whether or not an action has occurred.

Reflection for emphasis
The reflexive version of pronouns is often used for emphasis or to refer indirectly to a particular person, etc., according to context. Herself, for example, might refer to the speaker's boss or to the woman of the house. Use of herself or himself in this way can imply status or even some arrogance of the person in question. Note also the indirectness of this construction relative to, for example, She's coming now. This reflexive pronoun can also be used in a more neutral sense to describe a person's spouse or partner – "I was with himself last night" or "How's herself doing?"
 * "'Tis herself that's coming now." Is í féin atá ag teacht anois.
 * "Was it all of ye or just yourself?" An sibhse ar fad nó tusa féin a bhí i gceist?

Prepositional pronouns
There are some language forms that stem from the fact that there is no verb to have in Irish. Instead, possession is indicated in Irish by using the preposition "at", (in Irish, ag). To be more precise, Irish uses a prepositional pronoun that combines ag 'at' and mé 'me' to create agam. In English, the verb "to have" is used, along with a "with me" or "on me" that derives from Tá ... agam. This gives rise to the frequent Somebody who can speak a language "has" a language, in which Hiberno-English has borrowed the grammatical form used in Irish.
 * "Do you have the book?" – "I have it with me."
 * "Have you change for the bus on you?"
 * "He will not shut up if he has drink taken."
 * "She does not have Irish." Níl Gaeilge aici. literally 'There is no Irish at her.'

When describing something, many Hiberno-English speakers use the term "in it" where "there" would usually be used. This is due to the Irish word ann fulfilling both meanings.
 * "Is it yourself that is in it?" An tú féin atá ann?
 * "Is there any milk in it?" An bhfuil bainne ann?

Another idiom is this thing or that thing described as "this man here" or "that man there", which also features in Newfoundland English in Canada.
 * "This man here." An fear seo. (cf. the related anseo = here)
 * "That man there." An fear sin. (cf. the related ansin = there)

Conditionals have a greater presence in Hiberno-English due to the tendency to replace the simple present tense with the conditional (would) and the simple past tense with the conditional perfect (would have).
 * "John asked me would I buy a loaf of bread." (John asked me to buy a loaf of bread.)
 * "How do you know him? We would have been in school together." (We were in school together.)

Bring and take: Irish use of these words differs from that of British English because it follows the Irish grammar for beir and tóg. English usage is determined by direction; a person determines Irish usage. So, in English, one takes "from here to there", and brings it "to here from there". In Irish, a person takes only when accepting a transfer of possession of the object from someone else – and a person brings at all other times, irrespective of direction (to or from).
 * Do not forget to bring your umbrella with you when you leave.
 * (To a child) Hold my hand: I do not want someone to take you.

To be
The Irish equivalent of the verb "to be" has two present tenses, one (the present tense proper or "aimsir láithreach") for cases which are generally true or are true at the time of speaking and the other (the habitual present or "aimsir ghnáthláithreach") for repeated actions. Thus, "you are [now, or generally]" is tá tú, but "you are [repeatedly]" is bíonn tú. Both forms are used with the verbal noun (equivalent to the English present participle) to create compound tenses. This is similar to the distinction between ser and estar in Spanish or the use of the "habitual be" in African-American Vernacular English.

The corresponding usage in English is frequently found in rural areas, especially County Mayo and County Sligo in the west of Ireland and County Wexford in the south-east, inner-city Dublin and Cork city along with border areas of the North and Republic. In this form, the verb "to be" in English is similar to its use in Irish, with a "does be/do be" (or "bees", although less frequently) construction to indicate the continuous, or habitual, present:
 * "He does be working every day." Bíonn sé ag obair gach lá.
 * "They do be talking on their mobiles a lot." Bíonn siad ag caint go minic ar a bhfóin póca.
 * "He does be doing a lot of work at school." Bíonn sé ag déanamh go leor oibre ar scoil.
 * "It's him I do be thinking of." Is air a bhíonn mé ag smaoineamh.

From Old and Middle English
In old-fashioned usage, "it is" can be freely abbreviated 'tis, even as a standalone sentence. This also allows the double contraction 'tisn't, for "it is not".

Irish has separate forms for the second person singular (tú) and the second person plural (sibh). Mirroring Irish, and almost every other Indo-European language, the plural you is also distinguished from the singular in Hiberno-English, normally by use of the otherwise archaic English word ye ; the word yous (sometimes written as youse) also occurs, but primarily only in Dublin and across Ulster. In addition, in some areas in Leinster, north Connacht and parts of Ulster, the hybrid word ye-s, pronounced "yiz", may be used. The pronunciation differs with that of the northwestern being and the Leinster pronunciation being.

 * "Did ye all go to see it?" Ar imigh sibh go léir chun é a fheicint?
 * "None of youse have a clue!" Níl ciall/leid ar bith agaibh!
 * "Are ye not finished yet?" Nach bhfuil sibh críochnaithe fós?
 * "Yis are after destroying it!" Tá sibh tar éis é a scriosadh!

The word ye, yis or yous, otherwise archaic, is still used in place of "you" for the second-person plural, e.g. "Where are yous going?" Ye'r, Yisser or Yousser are the possessive forms.

The verb mitch is very common in Ireland, indicating being truant from school. This word appears in Shakespeare (though he wrote in Early Modern English rather than Middle English), but is seldom heard these days in British English, although pockets of usage persist in some areas (notably South Wales, Devon, and Cornwall). In parts of Connacht and Ulster the mitch is often replaced by the verb scheme, while in Dublin it is often replaced by "on the hop/bounce".

Another usage familiar from Shakespeare is the inclusion of the second person pronoun after the imperative form of a verb, as in "Wife, go you to her ere you go to bed" (Romeo and Juliet, Act III, Scene IV). This is still common in Ulster: "Get youse your homework done or you're no goin' out!" In Munster, you will still hear children being told, "Up to bed, let ye".

For influence from Scotland, see Ulster Scots and Ulster English.

Other grammatical influences
Now is often used at the end of sentences or phrases as a semantically empty word, completing an utterance without contributing any apparent meaning. Examples include "Bye now" (= "Goodbye"), "There you go now" (when giving someone something), "Ah now!" (expressing dismay), "Hold on now" (= "wait a minute"), "Now then" as a mild attention-getter, etc. This usage is universal among English dialects, but occurs more frequently in Hiberno-English. It is also used in the manner of the Italian 'prego' or German 'bitte', for example, a barman might say "Now, Sir." when delivering drinks.

So is often used for emphasis ("I can speak Irish, so I can"), or it may be tacked onto the end of a sentence to indicate agreement, where "then" would often be used in Standard English ("Bye so", "Let's go so", "That's fine so", "We'll do that so"). The word is also used to contradict a negative statement ("You're not pushing hard enough" – "I am so!"). (This contradiction of a negative is also seen in American English, though not as often as "I am too", or "Yes, I am".) The practice of indicating emphasis with so and including reduplicating the sentence's subject pronoun and auxiliary verb (is, are, have, has, can, etc.) such as in the initial example, is particularly prevalent in more northern dialects such as those of Sligo, Mayo and the counties of Ulster.

Sure/Surely is often used as a tag word, emphasising the obviousness of the statement, roughly translating as but/and/well/indeed. It can be used as "to be sure" (but the other stereotype of "Sure and …" is not actually used in Ireland.) Or "Sure, I can just go on Wednesday", "I will not, to be sure." The word is also used at the end of sentences (primarily in Munster), for instance, "I was only here five minutes ago, sure!" and can express emphasis or indignation. In Ulster, the reply "Aye, surely" may be given to show strong agreement.

To is often omitted from sentences where it would exist in British English. For example, "I'm not allowed go out tonight", instead of "I'm not allowed to go out tonight".

Will is often used where British English would use "shall" or American English "should" (as in "Will I make us a cup of tea?"). The distinction between "shall" (for first-person simple future, and second- and third-person emphatic future) and "will" (second- and third-person simple future, first-person emphatic future), maintained by many in England, does not exist in Hiberno-English, with "will" generally used in all cases.

Once is sometimes used in a different way from how it is used in other dialects; in this usage, it indicates a combination of logical and causal conditionality: "I have no problem laughing at myself once the joke is funny." Other dialects of English would probably use "if" in this situation.

title: Hiberno-English


text:
Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 2

Travellers
This is horribly offencive and will be removed immediatly.

 * Knacker - itinerant or traveller. A small but persistent group of human pest, where domestic violence, fighting, general lawlessness, non-existent personal hygiene, skip (dumpster) pilfering and inbreading is common. "The knackers are raiding the skip again dad."

--James Brown Monster, 23:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesbrownmonster (talk • contribs)

It is offensive - the spelling of" inbreading "is offensive too. A pun on getting stuffed is almost irresistible.--Tumadoireacht (talk) 19:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Changed 'Republic of Ireland' to 'Ireland'
I changed the line 'British English, however, remains the greatest influence on grammar, spelling and lexicon on English in  Ireland.' as the language used can be found throughout the whole island of Ireland as opposed to just the Republic of Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.223.163.6 (talk) 11:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

False derivations
I am trying to go through the long list of jokey slang words in this article and change the fanciful folk derivations given to proper etymologies (e.g. I just fixed "jackeen" and "jacks"). But it's a mammoth task. Whoever entered all this text in the entry did no-one any favours -- there is no linguistic basis for any of it, just a desire for folksy whimsy. Help fix it please. Pleidhce (talk) 01:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Changed Dublin English section
I edited the Dublin English section so that all the facts there are directly derived from Dublin English: Evolution and Change by Raymond Hickey--an actual book by an actual linguist written two years ago. It's a start, at least. Why would you presume that someone who found a publisher is the final word. i worked with an old beekeeper who was illiterate but brilliant. When presented with information from the latest books about beekeeping he would laugh gently and say "That's all very well and it is really  such a pity that the bees cannot read" --Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:07, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I, for one, welcome our linguistic overlords
Echoing sentiments scattered about on this page, this article is in need of a complete rewrite by a linguistic historian. Sorry folks, amateur linguistics is the stuff of bad jokes, and this page is an ad hoc, anecdotal, and thoroughly incomplete attempt at best. Not to mention it fails to acknowledge regional dialects and variations outside of the largest metropolitan areas, as if they don't exist. These local variations are in fact where some of the most interesting linguistic synergies are to be found. In summary, this article reads more like a chapter from a Fodor's travel guide to Ireland than an encyclopedia article.

Dublin, Cork and Kerry accents
I was looking at the list of English dialects in Wikipedia, which is very logically sub-divided. Under "Ireland" I then found Hiberno-English and came to this article. So I expected to then find the different 'dialects' of English as spoken in Ireland listed. When reading this article, however, it mentioned Dublin and says that the accents here differ from the rest of the country, and it mentions Cork and again says the accents differ from the rest of the country. It doesn't mention other accents. I'm not sure if the implication is that Dublin and Cork are exceptions, and the rest of the country all speaks a similar brand of 'Hiberno-English? I think this article could benefit from at least breaking down the dialects/accents in Ireland (i.e. Republic of Ireland as I assume Northern Ireland is covered under the UK), and ensuring that every area in Ireland is covered. I would suggest, for a start, that the distinctive Kerry accent should be kept separate from other accents. I think there may be a distinctive Donegal accent too, but I'm not sure about that. I know it's difficult because the accents just merge into one another as you travel around Ireland, but you do have that problem in every country. At the very least could I suggest that the accents be divided into the Cork accent, the Kerry accent, the rest of the country except Dublin, and then Dublin could be divided into two, the general Dublin accent, and the very pronounced accent you hear in the markets in central Dublin (the Dublin equivalent of 'Cockney'). What do others think? 82.35.15.212 06:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, I gather dialects in the wild exhibit differences every 1 or 2 hundred miles; mass media and other factors interfere with that pattern. The way Hiberno-English seems set up as a discipline the interest is Irishness rather than dialect I think Hakluyt bean 02:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Dublin is dealt with in detail as a result of being the most heavily populated area in the country. Kerry and Cork are added, it would seem, to provide contrast. Accents vary widely throughout the country, with no real standard accent or dialect. One could divide first by province,i.e. Leinster, Munster, Connaught and Ulster and then further by county and/or towns and cities. ErraticIrishMess (talk) 02:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Please define airing cupboard.
what is "airing cupboard", "airing cupboard"?

As Time Goes By.

Thank You.

hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

airing cupboard. hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 21:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 * It's a cupboard (or press in Hiberno-English) over the water heater/boiler where the likes of bedclothes and towels are put after drying to "air" them. Donnacha 22:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In Ireland it's frequently called the hot-press

What a mess
Yes, this page is a disaster. Alas so many Irish pages on Wikipedia are the victims of ignorant enthusiasts. I could spend my whole life trying to fix these pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pleidhce (talk • contribs) 02:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Pleidhce (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I got rid of the totally amateurish and out-of-place section on Cork, which had no linguistic basis, but was obviously written by someone with a touching but misguided desire to talk about his/her home-town. Pleidhce (talk) 02:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is a hotch-potch of hunches, factoids, urban legend and folk-linguistic speculation, combined with lists of various favourite words and phrases, the whole misleadingly presented as reliable information. It reads like an article on plant physiology written by an accountant who fancies he has green fingers. It's in desperate need of attention, if not top-to-bottom rewriting, by a linguist (as opposed to an enthusiastic amateur) who has actually systematically studied Hiberno-English on the basis of the wealth of scholarship that's been done over the last century and more. Someone who won't, for example, confuse phonemes with letters, writing things like "'r' is pronounced wherever it occurs in the word".

 * For fecks sake this is wikipedia! If you want stuff like that go to Brittannica.

 * I agree this entry is a mess, although it's generally more incomplete than incorrect. Also, there's some historical dialect features that are fairly anachronistic in modern speech (the herd/bird/curd and hoarse/horse splits are pretty rare in most modern dialects--they mostly merge the same way the Americans and British do). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.73.95.84 (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

 * This may be Wikipedia, but it should still be accurate as possible. This seems odd for an article on Hiberno English, as there must be a large number of formal (primary and secondary textbook) references on it (my Syntax textbook used it to demonstrate differences from standard English syntax). -- Jim Witte —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.9.143.221 (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

 * I agree, this article is in need of a clean-up. 90% of it could be deleted in my opinion. Some of the constructions used as examples Hiberno-English are ridiculous and in no way indicative of language used by the vast majority of the population while many more are regional. The "Lexicon" section belongs in a dictionary of slang rather than a serious linguistics article and can be deleted. I'm going to wait and see if anyone has anything else to add to this discussion and then make some changes that I deem necessary in order to make this article as informative and factual as Wikipedia articles should be Retro2112 12:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.193.182 (talk)

Langerhead
""Langer" is a variant used especially in Cork but has began to spread through the rest of the country."

Langer originates with Irish soldiers in the english army stationed in India. Langar monkeys would wake them at all hours and throw crap at them so langar became a term of abuse. This was imported to Cork on their return. Check out http://langerland.com.
 * corrected the link (ar to er) Hakluyt bean 17:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Unrelated, but I popped in to say that the word scallion is by no means Hiberno-English. The Joy of Cooking (American, 1997 update) refers to the onion in question as "scallions, called green onions in some parts of the country.", but uses the term scallions in recipes. I'm in my kitchen in Florida looking at a store-bought Thai cooking sauce, and the recipe suggestion also specifies scallions. Just doing my part to debunk the scholarliness of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.244.170.125 (talk • contribs).
 * Much American English derives from Hiberno and from Gaelic. The word is from the Greek. The usage is typically Irish.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumadoireacht (talk • contribs) 19:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

For anyone wanting to know Irish phonology, really, not like this...
Here: http://venus.unive.it/canipa/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=pdf .. Go to Celtic on "English PronunciationS" and download it, you'll find the Irish accents WELL described

Langar monkey business
If Langar monkeys were a menace to the English army to the point where it became a term of abuse among them, then it's a bit baffling why the term survived only in Cork. I'd like a source on this etymology. It sounds like one of those top-of-the-head folk etymologies based on the coincidence of two like-sounding words.

Langur monkey
As far as I know, the term 'langer' isn't very common in any area other than Cork, although I've heard it being used in Dublin once or twice. Although I'm not absolutely sure of this, apparently, the reason the term 'langer' is common in Cork, is that the term was particularly popular with troops originating from Cork, who were stationed in India. It was originally a reference to the langur monkey's tail, which to the troops, appeared to have a phallic shape. Mushed 17:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's enough Langers
http://www.corkslang.com/ :
 * A disagreeable person - Derivation: 	Unknown, but note 'Élang' - a defect, flaw, weak spot. (Joynt and Knott)
 * A penis - Derivation: Unknown, but 'Langur' - a long tailed monkey from India. (Concise Oxford Dictionary) Note influence of the Munster Fusiliers.
 * Drunk - Derivation: 	Unknown     Hakluyt bean 17:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"English"
Reading the article I see an awful lot of places where some Hiberno-English feature is set in contrast to "English"; except that the HE feature is shared with some or all dialects of American English. I assume that these were entered by someone who lives in Britain or elsewhere in the Commonwealth, but we should be careful about this sort of thing.

Also, we need to work on citing a whole lot more stuff in here. /blahedo (t) 18:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This mightn't go for everyone, but amongst a lot of people in south Dublin and North Wicklow 'Langer' is used to refer to someone FROM cork. probably because of their prolific use of the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.37.46.228 (talk) 01:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

"Hot news tense"?
Can somebody confirm that the "hot news tense" and "warm news tense" really exist? Do they have a more correct linguistic name? -- Strib 04:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

 * "hot news perfect" is from :
 * The present perfect in English has the following uses:
 * (a) to indicate that a state of affairs prevailed throughout some interval streching from the past into the present (Universal):
 * (31) I’ve known Max since 1960.
 * (b) to indicate the existence of past events (Existential):
 * (32) I have read Principia Mathematica five times.
 * (c) to indicate that the direct effect of a past event still continues (Stative):
 * (33) I can’t come to your party tonight - I’ve caught the flu.
 * (d) to report hot news (Hot news):
 * (34) Malcom X has just been assassinated.

"Hot news perfect" is a questionable category in general. It is still commonly used, but always in quotes; the term "perfect of recent past" (which is slightly different) is used instead by some. The suggestion the "after doing" in HE is used only for this form of the perfect, not for any others, is even more questionable. "Warm news perfect" looks like something a Wikipedian made up. The point about "hot news" is not the hotness but the newness; it emphasises the past act rather than its present relevance. jnestorius(talk) 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

a bit racist
i think this is a bit racist, it seems to be full of prejudiced. although some of the stuff is correct, when writing irish english you dont need to write things like 'awk, aye, twil twil twil' and things like that. this should be changed to be more like standard english but without losing the hiberno enlighs aspect —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daniel625 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Etymologies
"Knacker Derived from the Gaelic 'eachaire' meaning a horse handler..."

Come on ... English Knacker - horse dealer etc.

The Hiberno-English Archive suggests "n. someone dealing in horses (for excessive profit); pejor. a person involved in shady deals (cf. knack n. a trick, a device); (pejor.) a member of the travelling community; an impotent man < E dial. origin obscure." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.197.245 (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

 * knacker (n, vb) A dealer in old horses and other livestock. Scan. It formerly meant a saddler and harness maker. Ice. knakkr (saddle). Now used as a verb in colloquial E to indicate anything spoilt or ruined or tired-out (knackered). from |Standard English words which have a Scandinavian Etymology Hakluyt bean 17:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hiberno-English
So far as I can tell it's English that has been profoundly influenced by features of the Irish language hiberno-english.com. Quite a lot of what the article contains atm is not really in the category, seems to me. Hakluyt bean 18:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

In Irish there is a modh connealach, a conditional tense which doesn't exist in English. In English if you ask someone if they will do something, eg "Will you complete the task", it can only be answered I will or I will not, Irish has "I might" or "I may" as legitimate answers. Then there's the old gag, one yellow line means no parking at all, two yellow lines means no parking at all, at all. Repetition for emphasis is more prevalent in Irish than English, such as many many years ago, far far away, and ordering two pints every round. 83.70.248.72 00:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but this is simply wrong. Of course one may answer "I might" or "I may" in response to that question.  Where did you learn to speak English? [unsigned]

Sorry, I don't know Gaeilge, what does "I might" mean? A long time ago in a galaxy far far away... More seriously, the answer "I might" is not conditional anything; the auxiliary verb :would ,not the auxiliary verb :might, is called conditional. The use is termed a MOOD not a tense; there is no such tense as conditional. If you have to be wrong, please don't do it on Wikipedia. Froggo Zijgeb 00:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Gaelige has the módh coinniollach, which is not a mood in Irish, it is an actual tense, you don't add might or may, every verb has a distinct form. Kool Aid Relic (talk) 18:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

 * It's a mood, as indicated my the word "Módh", because one is speaking about potential actions, as opposed to the usual "indicative mood" (definite action) or "imperative mood" (commands). The Irish for tense is "Aimsir". The conditional mood can appear as present conditional, past conditional, or future conditional tenses. Just because English demands the auxiliary "would"/"could", doesn't mean it lacks a conditional mood. 137.43.55.43 (talk) 19:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The modh connealach is better translated to "I would" or "I would have" than "I might". It is its own tense, one that english does not directly have. Because of this, it remains in hiberno-english. Saying "I would have gone to the shop" is the hiberno-english way of saying "I did not go to the shop". 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Northern Ireland
Presumably Hiberno-English is spoken in Ireland and Northern Ireland? This isn't stated anywhere - the intro should say so. Ben Finn 21:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * But Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, so it does not need to be stated. [prepares to duck...] Snalwibma 18:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no need to duck. The above guy was clearly trying to be funny. 86.43.160.67 18:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You realise that N.I. is legally, culturally, politically and socially a different country, right? That's like saying Canada is the same country as America because they're both on the same continent...If there's a different accent, currency, prime minister, political system, judicial system, educational system, brand names available, age restrictions, law enforcement procedures, economy and military, I think it's safe to say it's a different country, yeah... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, then, by that definition I suppose prior to 6 December 1922 the 26 counties was a different "country" to, well, the 26 counties of today. Funny how Dublin, Cork and Galway have not moved though! Dastardly natives! There's only one Ireland, no matter how many times the colonial power decides to divide the country up into different states. The game is up for the British Empire, and the privileges of its remnants across the world. 86.42.84.131 (talk) 07:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Irish English?
Should the article be called Irish English instead? That was the most common name in the past, to my knowledge, although I don't claim any academia on the subject. Why Hiberno, it's like going back to Roman times. Come to think of it, the Romans never reigned in Ireland. -  Gold_heart   12:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This was discussed some time ago - see the archive here. Snalwibma 12:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link. Could Hiberno-English be a neologism, WP:NEO, an if that is case, would there be call for a change in title? - Gold_heart   12:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

In every case, "Irish English" should at least be mentioned in the opening sentence; I've just edited the article accordingly. --Jonik (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Bucklepper
Added; how was this essential HE word missed?!86.42.222.157 14:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To be sure to be sure
What a load of rot. I've never heard this nonsense in Ireland. This article looks like it was edited by someone whose sum total knowledge of language use in Ireland is based on 'The Quiet Man' and 'Far and Away.' Hollywood Irish is not an actual language, you understand. Would someone PLEASE have a go at making this article less silly? To be sure, to be sure - come off it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

I've heard the majoritiy of the words here, including 'to be sure to be sure' - sometimes films are annoyingly accurate!

Andrewl957 23:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I've lived in Dublin my entire life, and I've been to Monaghan and Cavan enough to become familiar with the dialects - never heard anyone say that. I've come across old geezers in pubs that spit onto the ground if you mention England, but never came across one of those stereotypical leprechaun types... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.69.112 (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I built a kitchen with a Kerryman -his two stock expression were greeting "Any news,Any news?" and when measuring"to be sure to be sure"--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a linguistics jounrnal
Does anyone actually know the full phonetic alphabet? Do they know what 'alveolar pronunciation' sounds like, or what a monophthong is? Seriously, is the purpose of this entry to inform, or impress the reader? Because either way I am neither informed nor impressed.

Someone needs to either translate this stuff, or go back to whatever it was before. I'd take informal over needlessly complicated anyday... 83.70.69.112 16:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)Emerald

 * IPA is the only way to express in text how a language is spoken. The only alternative is to add a bunch of MP3 files.  Are you going to do that?  If not, the IPA stays. --Red King (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Chemistry articles shouldn't use fancy-pants phrases like "dinucleotide" and "phosphorence" either. 137.43.55.43 (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Why is technical gibberish allowed in linguistic articles but not elsewhere?
I think that if someone edited the "personal computer" entry into a detailed, jargon-filled description of the layout of various microprocessor circuits, people would object. And yet that is what has happened to this language article. To be fair, though, the changes on this page bring it into line with the other language articles on Wikipedia - it isn't just this article, it is all of them. I do love the ability to really dig into something that readers enjoy here; you simply can't get that from the encyclopedia on your bookshelf. For that reason I hate to whine too much on this subject, since presumably if we got rid of all the jargon, we would be back to the kind of fluff that was this article before the linguistics geek made it unreadable. But I think it is reasonable to question whether this is a real encyclopedia article (as the comments above do). Perhaps the best of both worlds could be achieved if the technical info was left intact, but was made more accessible with more examples and explanations. I want this info to stay in the article - but I want people to understand it (I want to understand it). Presenting it in such a nakedly inaccessible format does not consider the audience and is frankly quite arrogant. Kgdickey (talk) 01:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I have just tried to read this article. It is of almost no use to anyone who is not a specialist in linguistics. This is not something just any editor can fix, or I would have tried. It needs an expert who can explain without the jargon. I appreciate that this is likely a difficult task. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What gibberish? If you don't understand what is going on, then go and read the International Phonetic Alphabet article, same as you would for any other topic you don't understand.  IPA is the only way to use text to indicate pronunciation.  Otherwise we need to record a load of MP3 files.  Are you going to do that?   --Red King (talk) 12:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I have to agree. This is useless gibberish to the approximately 99.5% of the population who are not trained linguists.  I mean really, the Phonology section could be read absolutely unchanged as a Monty Python skit.  It is so completely incomprehensible to most people that it's actually funny.  How about something useful on this interesting topic. GillArts 04:20, 18 October 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gillartsny (talk • contribs)

 * I agree with Red King. Go read the IPA article.  Trust me, nothing in linguistics is as difficult as it seems.  You will see a lot of jargon, but it always looks way more complicated than it actually is.  If I can understand this stuff, you can too. Thegryseone (talk) 08:37, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Definite Article Clarification?
Though I risk the ever-popular Wikipedian accusation of American bias by even asking, could someone possibly see it in their heart to add a sentence to point out what exactly is atypical about the sentence below? Which "the" in this sentence is unusual in British English, and why?

 * She had the flu so he brought her to the hospital.

As one of those ignorant, ethnocentric, and badly dressed 67 percent myself, I guess I've never heard this sentence phrased the correct way. Xezlec (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In English English diseases never take a 'the', and you'd probably say 'She had flu so he took her to hospital'  Simon Q (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Ditto. In "English" English you would not say "the flu", but in Hiberno-English it is likely that you would. This a carry-over from Gaelic where the definitive article can be used for emphasis e.g. Tá an fliú aicí stresses that "She has the flu" whereas Tá fliú aici ("She has (a) flu") lacks any great emphasis. --sony-youth pléigh 15:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Maybe, "she flu to hospital", saves ink. ;~)) 78.19.40.19 (talk) 16:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Very interesting about the Irish use of "the". Any citations? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: Surely the flu would be on her/uirthi? 86.42.91.234 (talk) 12:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

 * No citations but it's accurate, I had to read that sentence five times before I realised that speakers of 'English-English' would not use 'the flu' and 'the hospital'! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:35, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of letters of the alphabet
The article mentions the letters a,h and z. I would have thought the pronunciation of "r" (rhyming with oar rather than are)is the most noticeably different letter in hiberno-english 81.62.155.49 (talk) 10:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. Text changed - though I'm not convinced the paragraph in question is correctly positioned within the article. Snalwibma (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Grand
Just noticed that there's no mention of the word grand - probably the single most common hiberno-english word (or hiberno-english usage of a word anyway) Any mention of it would probably need to point out the differences in real usage and that of Oirish characters in certain (mostly American, but even the odd British) films!81.62.169.112 (talk) 20:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

'Isn't it well for you'
Just googled this as a fella said it to me and all the results that came up were Irish. It's cute. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

'You and whose army?'
Where did this come from? It's a great one. In school in the 1980s it was all the rage as a generic response to 'I'll kick the living shite out of you' and other fine sentiments such as 'I'd hammer ten shades of shite out of you'. I remember one incredibly annoying spiky-haired little fella, who was really tiny, used to say that to everybody who rose to his annoyance and then run with a big smile on him before they got him in a headlock and did the aforementioned. 86.42.102.87 (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2008

also prevalent during my childhood (1950's and 60's) in the predominantly celtic ottawa valley.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Scope of the article
Another editor has queried my deletion of some terms which did not fit this statement in the article: "However, some unique characteristics exist, especially in the spoken language, owing to the influence of the Irish language on the pronunciation of English." (my emphasis) Let me reiterate my position; unless a term is uniquely used in this dialect it does not belong here. Unless its unique usage can be verifiably demonstrated using reliable sources, it does not belong here. It doesn't seem difficult or controversial to me, but there you go. This would be a better place to discuss the matter than on my talk page I think. --John (talk) 18:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

"I have you now"
OK, where does that come from? Most of us say it to mean 'I understand you now' (as my elderly neighbour just did). Is that the same in British or US English? 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have heard this in the UK but mostly people say "got you" or "got you now". Fainites barley scribs 17:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Help wanted: Linguistic studies on transition between languages
I have T.P. Dolan and P.W. Joyce's studies on Hiberno-English. However, I got in a discussion with a guy who denied the existence of a transitional phase when a community is changing from one language to another: he reckoned the Irish went from speaking Irish to speaking British English without such a phase. I contended that there was a transitional phase, that there had to be such a phase, and that it was reflected in grammatical forms direct from the old language- e.g. táim tar éis mo dhinnéar. These grammatical constructions, much moreso than Irish words used in English, are for me the solid basis of Hiberno-English. Are there any linguistic studies of societies undergoing such changes that would support my contention of a transitional phase (which seems like basic common sense)? If somebody knows about this, this article would benefit hugely from a linguistically-focused section on this aspect. Thanks very much in advance/Míle bhuíochas as ucht bhur cabhair. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

 * When English was adopted in 1600-1800 very few schools existed, and so the poor slotted each word into a Gaelic-style word order as they learnt it. And then copied each other.86.42.221.153 (talk) 12:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are some well established amusing studies of swathes of Africa where Hiberno_English prevails due to teaching Irish missionary nuns and  priests. The best example is "I usedn't to  do something" versus the cumbersome received UK english of" I did not used to do something".--Tumadoireacht (talk) 20:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Bearna Baol
Just heard Seán O'Rourke on The News at One on RTÉ Radio 1 saying 'today the Minister [for Finance] was in the bearna baol over the budget'. Nice! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.3.209 (talk) 12:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

More Grammar Derived From Irish
You're missing how people often use prepositions to express feelings and the like.

For example instead of saying: He's a mean fella when he's drunk. people would usually say: He's a mean fella when he has a few drinks on him. as in the Irish for a feeling, like: bhi athas an domhain orm. (The happiness of the world is on me)

Also, in the dublin english theres no mention of how some people mash syllables together, like when people say "howiya" instead of "how are you" and "yungfla" instead of "young fella". Oh, and there's the ever annoying "wilyumee'huwr" instead of "will you meet her". - Cian, 11:42, 17th April 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.172.242 (talk) 11:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Aye for Yes
Outside of Northern Ireland, Donegal and around the border areas i've not heard an Irishman using aye for yes, are yous becoming like lilly limp wristed Londoners? 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

What About Northern Ireland?
Does this article include the English spoken in Northern Ireland? If not, then where is the article on the English spoken in Northern Ireland? Thegryseone (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point. Trudgill distinguishes between Northern Irish English (the "ScotEng-origin varieties spoken in the north of Ireland (not: Northern Ireland), i.e. Ulster-Scots and Mid-Ulster English") and Southern Irish English ("the EngEng-origin varieties of the south of Ireland"). "This distinction is not coterminous (emphasis in original) with the political division of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland". Soundfiles: NIrEng  SIrEng I'm [dʒæˑkɫɜmbɚ]  and I approve this message. 22:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Mid Ulster English. jnestorius(talk) 23:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Truce term
Hi. I'm writing an article on this subject and would like to know what Irish children use as truce terms. Truce terms are words used to call a temporary respite in a game to do something like tie a shoelace, go to the loo or discuss the rules. They are often regional. I really would like sources too. Such as regional or folk dictionaries and so on. Many thanks! Fainites barley scribs 17:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Come on guys! There must be somebody in Ireland who remembers using truce terms at school? Primary school? Pax, pays, tax, keys anyone? Fainites barley scribs 22:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I can't give sources but I seem to remember saying 'pause', 'safety', 'break' or just 'time out'. Either that or we'd shout things and yell stop until the game stopped...

Mostly we used to say "Touch me before I tell you  and I'll plant you. you heathen Sasenach bastard" in kindergarten--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I remeber talking about being "in the den" (usually a wall you had to reach before being caught). I can't remember the word for stopping play. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Loodar/Ludar
Doesn't just come from lúdramán, it's a combination of lúdramán and the English loser.

Also added lúdramán since amadán was in the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.40.41 (talk) 03:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Celtbion/slabber
What does "slabber" mean - it seems to be a dialect or slang term. Autarch (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Norman English
The introduction to this article gives the impression that English in the Pale was established during the plantations of Ireland during the 16th and 17th centuries when it would much more likely have been established around the time of the Norman conquest of Ireland during the 12th century. The article definitely needs a separate history section to properly explain where all the different influences come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.2.157 (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yer Wan (Your One)
This always refers to a woman, it is not used when one is not sure of sex. Also it should not be spelled 'yer wan' as this is an approximation of its pronunciation in some parts of the country, not a spelling. It could similarly be spelled 'yur wun'. The phrase is 'your one'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:43, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

2nd person plural
"Local Dublin can feature the word 'ye' for the second-person plural (although the more common Hiberno-English 'youse' is still common)."

This sentence confuses me to no end, it says 'common' too much... Local Dublin uses 'youse' more than ye, and the rest of the country uses ye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by ErraticIrishMess (talk • contribs) 02:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Culchie Alternative Origin Theory
I read somewhere that the term Culchie originates from UCD in the 1960s, where students from the country would go to study Agricultural Science, and were referred to as 'Culchies' by those from the city. Can't remember where I saw that though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.132.50 (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The use of 'less' in place of 'fewer'?
A common feature of Hiberno-English is the use of 'less' instead of the England English use of fewer, e.g. I would rather attend less meetings. Perhaps there might be some mention of it in the lexicon?

Eoin O (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Eoin O'Mahony

 * Equally common in British English, I'd say. Unless you can find a source that says it's more frequent in Ireland, forget it! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 11:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I think English speakers everywhere do that. • Anakin (talk) 12:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup - no evidence that less people do it in Britain, or in America! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 12:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:V
Can we remember that this article has to conform to WP:V and WP:RS, just like any other. I have put a lot of time over a long period into trimming out neologism, slang and "I heard it in the pub"-type entries from the "Lexicon" section. I inserted a hidden note into the article reminding folks not to add unreferenced material. Maybe that will help, I hope so. --John (talk) 15:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

The dialect in this page is way out of date!
The dialect here is even out of date to my grandparents!It needs to be relooked! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.112.11 (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Misspelling
Being from Dublin I would say that the plural form of "you" should be spelled "yous" rather than "youse" as in the article. Do others agree? If so, I think the article should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.241.118 (talk) 18:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Whenever
It has been my observation that Irish people often use "whenever" when most(?) English speakers would use "when". For example, "I will tell him whenever I see him" would, I believe, mean "I will tell him every time I see him" to English-English speakers, but means "I will tell him the next time I see him" to many Irish-English speakers. I have no idea whether this accurate, whether it applies widely to different Irish-English dialects, but if it is accurate perhaps it could be added? 122.107.58.27 (talk) 06:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Problems with article
A number of points that need to be deleted or amended: - The article states that /r/ is postalveolar tap in "conservative" accents. "Conservative accents" is also mentioned later. An explanation please. - Distinction between /w/ and /hw/ preserved - not true. I've never heard this. - thin and tin, then and den described as "near-homophones". These are not near-homophones, they are total homophones! - herd-bird-curd - articles claims distinction in vowel maintained. Where in Ireland is this so? I've never heard this. - took is never proounced with a /u:/. Only certain words like book, cook and hook. Some corrections to the Irish language phrases cited:

- Bíonn siad ag caint go leor ar a fóin póca - should read "Déanann siad a lán cainte ar a bhfóin phóca - Is air a bhíonn mé ag smaoineamh - should read "Is air a bhím ag smaoineamh" - Ar imigh sibh go léir chun é a fheicint? - should read "é a fheiscint" - críochnaitha - should read "críochnaithe". - An raibh sé sibh go léir nó tusa féin? - should read "Sibhse go léir a bhí ann nó tú féin amháin?"

And, no one in Ireland ever ever says "To be sure, to be sure" in spite of what one might hear in a Hollywood film. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 13:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the distinction between 'when' and 'wen', 'which' and 'witch' are very clear. The distinction between /w/ and /hw/ is preserved.
 * thin/tin, then/den are only exact homophones in Dublin. Note for example the clear difference between 'thai' and 'tie' in the west. But not lisped of course - the former is pronounced with the tongue fully forward against the upper front teeth and front palate, the latter is with the tip of the tongue touching just the upper teeth
 * herd and bird are very different in the west. But curd and bird are very similar.
 * I agree re took, though it might be a local dialect as rhyming book with cook/hook is very Dublin (elsewhere it rhymes with took). --Red King (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

1. They may be very clear where you live but I've never heard this either in my home town (in south Leinster) or in Dublin. 2. They are exact homophones where I come from too. Similarly, there is no difference between 'thai' and 'tie'. 3. Herd-bird-curd are all homophones in southern Leinster. 4. Took is always with /u/ where I come from and the same goes for "book" but "cook" and "hook" are always long /u:/.

An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

On point 4, the sound of a double "o", it is inconsistant within any english dialect. The best example is "good schooling". This would never be pronouced "/gu:d/ /schul/ing" 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Moving Dublin English to its own article
I would say the Dublin English section is now long enough to merit its own article. It takes up a big chunk of the page—this article should be an overview of all the dialects in Ireland and not focus too much on one in particular. Given that it's a big city, Dublin has a few dialects and these could all be discussed and expanded upon in a separate article. Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 10:37, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say that this is in its entirety one of the WORST articles I've read in ages. It needs massive clean-up and now would not be the time to split the Dublin English section off from it. As an aside, wouldn't it be nice to have some maps and isoglosses? -- Evertype·✆ 13:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think it could take some pointers from Mid Ulster English, although it needs a bit of a cleanup too. ~Asarlaí 13:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to keep the dross off this for ages now and it is an uphill task. Everything needs to be referenced or it needs to go. Some more help in clearing out the "heard-it-in-the-pub" stuff would be appreciated. --John (talk) 14:17, 28 September 2010 (UTC

Way forward
Since June 2008 I have been trying to stop the influx of horrible, cute, "heard-in-the-pub" slang and neologisms from swamping this article. Our safeguard against this is WP:V, and I think this needs to be ruthlessly enforced. I asked this question quite a while ago, and inserted a hidden note on a particularly problematic section of the article. What we need is someone with the time and patience to find sources for those things that can be sourced, and then we can finally trim out the dross. It's a nice question whether, failing this, the article in a week or two should be (as at present) 90% unsourced but with some interesting and probably true material, or as a (sourced) stub with potential for expansion. I am leaning towards the latter. What do others think? --John (talk) 18:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * John, the vast majority of these sayings are used in Ireland all the time or were used a lot. The phrases here are much more likely to have been heard from parents or grandparents than "heard in the pub". It would nice to have citations for them all, but failing that I think it's better to allow people to decide for themselves what they want to take on board. Some of the older sayings an Irish person might just about remember being used from years ago, and they might be interested in reading these phrases again. I personally would also take the one or two ones I haven't heard before with a grain of salt, the others are many decades or centuries old. Anonywiki (talk) 03:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Whether they are decades, centuries, or months old, verifiability is the only plausible test of inclusion here; otherwise (as we have seen) we get a great rambling list of putative and unverifiable dicdefs. I'm as keen as you are on preserving and even celebrating dialect and language, but this is not Wikipedia's main focus. --John (talk) 05:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, John is right. I say unfortunately because it may mean removing a lot of content from this article. Our verifiability policy is clear that challenged material may be removed. I don't really favor enforcing the policy as to things that both of you know to be true, but for which we simply cannot locate sources (in other words, material that neither of you wish to challenge). On the other hand, it may encourage people to make additions without sources if they see that large parts of this article are not sourced. As far as I can tell, there are lots of things in here without either citations or fact tags (like the material from the recent disagreement). I think the first step is for each of you to tag uncited assertions that you wish to challenge with fact and then we wait a reasonable period (I previously suggested a month) and then remove tagged content for which no references have been produced. Content can always be added back later as references are found.--Chaser (talk) 16:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The works of Roddy Doyle, James Joyce, John B. Keane and others must be mines of suitable citations. --Red King (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we need third-party secondary sources which talk about the words rather than primary sources which use them. The alternative would be for articles like this one to expand indefinitely; I love Joyce, to take one of your examples, but imagine if we had to gloss every neologism and pun he used! The William Shakespeare article doesn't do that and neither should this one. --John (talk) 19:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

hiberno-english.com in References
The website http://www.hiberno-english.com/ appears to no longer be online. The WayBack Machine has it at http://web.archive.org/web/20080616105858/http://www.hiberno-english.com/ - However, I have not changed anything as I am not clear on Wiki's policy regarding archival sites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.219.189.102 (talk) 08:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Wet Thing
Is this really a phrase which is in common use in Ireland? I'd say it is seldom used and not worth mentioning on a page like this.

"Wet thing – A crude turn of phrase describing a sexually attractive girl or woman. More recently, the term is simply put as wet. Wetser is also used, mainly in Dublin. The term is more common in reference to females but can apply to males in certain contexts. "Jaysus, yer one over there's a wet thing!" "That bird I met at Wesley was wet!"" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomsweeney (talk • contribs) 00:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I suspect the term refers rather  to a sexually eager female Tom, for whom Wesley is, I am told, a magnet. A young lothario friend tells me that when one drops the hand if it does not feel like feeding sugar lumps to a horse then one should seek succour elsewhere--Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I've removed the entire section. It was generally lacking cites, unverifiable, and by the look of it mostly unnotable slang.  Wikipedia is also not a dictionary, which is what the section appeared to be trying to be. -- Escape Orbit(Talk) 00:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC

 * I hotly disagree with the peremptory good faith 25,000 character revert by Escape Orbit Many of the references were unlinked and needed work but many also contained easily verifiable clues for that word, referencing songs and history and other WERE referenced which should not have been touched.

 * A country where speaking ones' own language and where learning were until quite recently illegal has, quite naturally a stronger oral tradition and a more casual link with attribution and etymology.

 * I suggest that for starters she/he revert his/her own edit and offer a grace period of, say a month for others to tidy up the etymologies.I would be willing to lend a hand. Putting up a noticeboard notice would help. It is a rich resource.
 * After that a cull of the worst offenders could be considered.
 * Sometimes verifiability becomes a fetish that gets in the way of the prime purpose of sharing knowledge. In gardening or in cooking  compost or stock are not ends in themselves but tools to produce lovely  flowers and sauces
 * "Generally lacking cites" is not a good justification for taking out the good with the bad in a great sweep. Better in than out IMO.
 * --Tumadoireacht (talk) 01:06, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm with User:Tumadoireacht on this one, sorry. As a native Dubliner myself, a quick glance over the list shows about 90% of them to be correct and highly likely to be verifiable. I'm comfortable working on getting them sourced too, over the next week or so. I view Hiberno-English as part of our cultural heritage and given that the English language is a relative (well, sorta) newcomer to Ireland, it's important to document this -  A l is o n  ❤ 01:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Be careful Alison or we will be accused of Original Research ( a "mortaller"  in the wikiuniverse) because we are native speakers with an ear and an opinion and a laptop-  the touching faith that wikipedia has that if someone managed to find a book  publisher that that confers legitimacy on their opinions is amusing as is the fact  that many folk just use wikipedia for making up table quiz questions  or settling bets. You are "the heart of the roll" for weighing in --Tumadoireacht (talk) 03:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I will revert my edit and am happy to discuss. As Tumadoireacht indicates above, just because individual Wikipedia editors can vouch for a phrase does not make it verifiable.  Most of the content may be genuine Dublin craic, but that can't be verified by the reader and doesn't mean it should be in this article. And I still suspect that more than a few are just amusing turns of phrase that someone heard down the pub once, or made up as a private joke.   That makes them neologisms, which don't belong here.  It also remains the fact that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and if this article is to have a Lexicon section it should strictly stick to a small selection of solidly cited examples of proven relevance and common usage. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 21:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I tentatively agree with EO here. See also this section above. --John (talk) 22:19, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a sneaking disregard for the anti lexicography stance of WP for short lists like this. Looking through the list there are a lot more referenced than I expected

My eyes lit on "acting the cod" and two derivations occurred to me -an actor's codpiece or smelling odd like  codfish. I must go down the Pub for an authoritative second opinion :) I think a distinction ought to be made between books of merit on H.E. and dodgy books published for the tourist trade  or by Sir Bufton Tufton after one pink gin too many --— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 22:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Taking this article to pieces
Has been mentioned on this talk page a number of times, but I think that this article needs gutting. As is, it's pretty hard to tell the wheat from the chaff with it - if I was coming to it for encyclopedic knowledge, I'd go away empty-handed.

I'm happy to start taking chunks out of this article - maybe putting them here or in a non-displaying namespace & putting stuff back in as it gets verified. Just wanted to mention it here first before I started hacking at the thing - reckon anyone seriously interested will respond here, as opposed to most edits, which seem like kids adding their latest favourite words.

If there's no objections, I'll start doing this over the next few days Dave (talk) 23:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC
 * This little kid would like to see a generous list of hiberno-english words retained so that a reader approaching the article for the first time  could actually see a good dollop of  hiberno-english rather than just a gielgudian grapple with rhoticity  and glottal stops. Although WP is not an indiscriminate list  it is also not  a scientific journal[]. A list and some clearly described  science improve this and most articles. I suggest that Dave foment his proposed improvements elsewhere and then present them in this discussion page for discussion. This approved method is underused but useful. The article  needs work without doubt. Even the first paragraph is a joke. But lets not throw the  baby out with the bathwater. Let the article stand untroubled by major demolition until there is consensus. Per our definition, an encyclopedia is a compendium and the  WP highest  aim is  to be a repository of ALL knowledge. Cha bhi fios aire math an tobair gus an tràigh e.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 02:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

 * What use is your well if its water's dirty though? =) I don't know the first thing about guttural stops, so I'm not advocating a technical manual. Saying it's a compendium of knowledge - that knowledge isn't meant to be based on original research. My view would be to get rid of the complete rubbish, take stuff that seems useful & put tags on it, & then try and clean it the whole thing when it's more managable. Don't mind putting together a page outside of the main namespace as a start Dave (talk) 19:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan Dave.You are quite right. Attribution is King after all even if the king snores after dinner ! I think there may yet be a place in the hyperspace world for a Wikispeculation site or Wikistories where all the salmon that  John  West rejects can swim freely. Editors frpm  the Flann O'Brien  branch of etymological lexicography  could disport themselves there  to their hearts content.It is easy to forget  that this is not the UN, few are watching  and most people do not give a toot, about pages outside their areas of expertise.--— Tumadoireacht Talk/Stalk 04:19, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed redraft
As mentioned above, I've worked on a redraft of the current page, which can be found here. Most of the material is still intact. I've removed sections that are unsourced, especially stuff that I don't know to be true, and have tried to source refereces for other bits.

Still needs a lot of work, mainly focused on citing the vocabulary and putting main section headings in place.

What do you think? I'd be proposing replacing what we have currently with this & then continuing work in the main namespace Dave (talk) 21:50, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Scallion/spring onion/green onion
Erm...there is actually a difference between the three items mentioned. The scallion is the dull green bulbless variety. The spring onion has a bulb, while a green onion is of a vivid green colour, again bulbless. ‣ Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Scallions do have a bulb, although it is quite small. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well they do, but I'm more talking in comparison with the others. It's not scientific (as far as I know), but to suggest they are the same is just wrong. Where I grew up (in Meath) the three terms were used quite commonly, but each referred to a different shape/colour/aspect of this type of onion. Mac Tíre   Cowag  01:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've a feeling that usage may vary. I never heard of anything but scallions growing up in Dublin, and only came across the term "spring onion" as a British name for scallion when I started reading British recipe books. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think usage probably does vary. I can't say for the rest of the country, but here are some images of what we in Meath (original Royals, rather than inclusive of the newcomers, as their usage will, no doubt, vary from the original usage in Meath) would describe as green onions, spring onions, and scallions: Spring onions (notice the bulb is larger than the "stalk"), Scallions (notice the bulb is the same size as the "stalk" or only ever so slightly bigger), and Green onions (notice the bright green colour, and again a lack of bulb, or at least the bulb is the same width as the stalk). Mac Tíre   Cowag  10:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting! I think I would happily call all of those 'scallions'. Certainly the second and the third; the first look a bit on the big side, but I wouldn't have any other name for them - as I said, I had until now simply thought that 'spring onion' was the British term equivalent to Irish 'scallion'. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, but isn't that the beauty of language! Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Even if we take the word "kettle" - many here in Ireland would assume you were talking about the chorded jug used to boil water, or the "steel" jug with spout and lid that sits and whistles on your granny's cooker for the same purpose. Ask an American though, and you'll find that a kettle there can refer to a much broader spectrum of vessels used for boiling any sort of liquid or soup! Or the old chestnut - broiler vs. grill! Mac Tíre   Cowag  11:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Norman Invasion
Surely, when the Normans arrived the language they spoke was French. Also, the languages used at court were French and Latin. Middle English was still evolving into English. Also, given that the Normans, famously, 'became more Irish than the Irish themselves', then, surely, 'English' did start to arrive into Ireland until much, much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artied (talk • contribs) 10:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

At all, at all
I note the following in the text:

the Irish ar ngíthe corresponds to English "at all", so the stronger ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó gives rise to the form "at all at all". "I've no money at all at all."

"ar ngíthe" does not exist in Irish and "ar ngíthe go bhfuar ina bfhuil go shó" is meaningless gibberish. What is more, I am Irish and have never heard anyone say "At all, at all". I have only ever heard this in American films from "stage Irishman" characters. I suggest that the reference be deleted unless a credible source for its by Irish people can be produced. 212.129.68.207 (talk) 13:04, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

As someone born and raised in Waterford, I can attest that "at all, at all" is something I've said. I cannot work out what the irish is supposed to mean, so it may well be gibberish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.170.48 (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

'd' between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in Dublin English
There's no mention of the tendency to add a 'd' phoneme between 'r' and 'l' or 'n' in 'Local' Dublin English. E.g 'Herald' being realised as [hɛ:(ɹ)dld], 'girl' as [gɛ(ɹ)dl] and 'puttering' as [pʊtɛ(ɹ)dn]. Can anyone fix this/find sources for this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.225.183 (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Will for shall British
"Will is often used where British English would use "shall" ("Will I make us a cup of tea?"). The distinction between "shall" (for first-person simple future, and second- and third-person emphatic future) and "will" (second- and third-person simple future, first-person emphatic future), maintained by many in England, does not exist in Hiberno-English, with "will" generally used in all cases." --I'd say this is generally inaccurate 'Should i make us a cuppa tea?' would be much more common than 'shall' which is old fashioned and marginalised to the upper and middle classes i'd say. 90.222.161.11 (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

'Z's or 'S's
So which i'z' it? RashersTierney (talk) 23:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Given that both are equally acceptable in British English (which is what we use for spelling with in Ireland), my opinion is that it shouldn't have been changed in the first place. As far as I can see, most of it occurs in the lengthy section about regional accents which is one of the few well-sourced elements in the article, and while I didn't go trawling all the way through the history, it looks like the person who put in the work on that used the 'ize' spelling, so I think their preference should be respected. I know the spelling manual of style, when it talks about not changing existing spelling versions, is really referring to US-British differences, but I think that would be a good rule of thumb for the ise/ize difference in British (or Irish, if you wish) spelling too. --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The use of s rather than z is generally the spelling in the local variant. RashersTierney (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It may be more common, but I don't think it's "generally the spelling". The "z" spelling is given first in the Oxford English Dictionary, for example. The idea that the "-ize" spelling is an Americanism is a misconception, and we shouldn't go around changing articles based on misconceptions! --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Americanizms really have nothing to do with it. Nor really does the OED, unless it now determines rather than interprets language use. RashersTierney (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If we're not going to rely on dictionaries to indicate what are accepted spellings, what do you suggest as an alternative? And if Americanisms have nothing to do with it, what is your objection to "-ize" spellings? --ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So which dictionaries, in your view, should we consider definitive for Hiberno English? RashersTierney (talk) 01:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a case of WP:ENGVAR. "-ise" endings are far more common in modern Irish and British English. — Jon C.  ॐ  08:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Old English and Irish English? (Title of section 3.2)
How could there ever be any Old English retention in Irish English since Irish English only began ca. 1100 at the earliest? Besides there isn't a single example of an Old English retention in that section. Shouldn't that section's name then be changed to "From Middle English". Incidentally are Middle English and Old English hyphenated? This is not the usage I personally have most often observed. Signed: Basemetal ( write to me here) 15:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

non rhoticity
Currently there is only a little bit on non-rhoticity near the top of the pronunciation section, worth adding its own section? 195.162.87.201 (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

nonsense in first(!) sentence
"English was first brought to Ireland as a result of the Norman invasion of the late 12th century, although during that time the Normans did not speak English, but rather Norman-French." - This obviously needs to be rephrased and requires more information to not be complete nonsense because invaders obviously cannot introduce a language they don't speak. It's truly amazing how many WP editors don't bother to read what they've written and how many other editors don't check even the introduction of articles they work on... --Espoo (talk) 12:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: article not moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 09:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Hiberno-English → Irish English – more common name 76.120.175.135 (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * !! Support as per WP:RECOGNIZABLE Red <b style="color:#460121;">Slash</b> 21:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose without further evidence. An important reference on the topic is A Dictionary of Hiberno-English and my OR says the term is common in Ireland.  — <span style="border:1px solid #000073;background:#4D4DA6;padding:2px;color:#F9FFFF;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em"> AjaxSmack   07:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose not recognizable. Irish English dialect would be better. The proposed name does not indicate if this is a linguistic article or citizenry or ethnic group. Would this be English people of Irish descent, Irish people of English descent, the Irish version of putting the "English" on it, the English version of making things "Irish", etc. -- 70.50.151.11 (talk) 04:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose It's not clear in what community the term Irish English may really be more common. In any case, there's minimal preference or prioritizing of terms expressed via a redirect, provided that the actual destination article lede includes a phrase like "also known as", "often called", or "sometimes referred to as", as is the case here. jxm (talk) 05:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Vowel charts
I think the phonology section needs vowel charts like those on Scottish English and Welsh English. (suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ) nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 20:04, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not as simple as saying that the page needs a diagram of vowel targets. We need sources for such things. Peter238 (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Infobox
Talk here about the infobox. Uamaol (talk) 05:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Reflection for emphasis
In the Reflection for emphasis section, the second part, beginning with 'This is not limited only to the verb to be' needs some work. Back in 2010, the version at removed a chunk of material that this was referring to. I'm not sure if this part should also be removed, or if it is unique to Hiberno-English and just needs to be redone a little. 24.144.49.125 (talk) 02:20, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hiberno-English/Archive 2