text:
Davy Jones (musician)

David Thomas Jones (30 December 1945 – 29 February 2012) was an English actor and singer. Best known as a member of the band the Monkees and a co-star of the TV series The Monkees (1966–1968), Jones was considered a teen idol.

Aside from his work on The Monkees TV show, Jones's acting credits include a Tony-nominated performance as the Artful Dodger in the original London and Broadway productions of Oliver! and a guest-starring role in a hallmark episode of The Brady Bunch television show and a later reprised parody film.

Early life
David Thomas Jones was born on 30 December 1945 in Openshaw, England, to Harry and Doris Jones. He had three sisters: Hazel, Lynda and Beryl. Jones' mother died from emphysema when he was 14 years of age.

Early days (1961–1965)
Jones' television acting debut was in the British television soap opera Coronation Street, in which he appeared as Colin Lomax, grandson of the regular character Ena Sharples, for one episode on 6 March 1961. He also appeared in the BBC police series Z-Cars. Following the death of his mother, Jones rejected acting in favour of becoming a jockey, commencing an apprenticeship with Newmarket trainer Basil Foster. He dropped out of secondary school to begin working in that field, but this career was short-lived. Even though Foster believed Jones would be successful as a jockey, he encouraged his young protégé to take a role as the Artful Dodger in a production of Oliver! in London's West End. When approached by a friend who worked in a West End theatre during the show's casting, Foster replied, "I've got the kid." Jones's portrayal brought him great acclaim. He played the role in London and then on Broadway, and was nominated for a Tony Award.

On 9 February 1964, Jones appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show with Georgia Brown, who was playing Nancy in the Broadway production of Oliver!. This was the same episode of the show in which the Beatles made their first appearance on U.S. television. Jones said of that night, "I watched the Beatles from the side of the stage, I saw the girls going crazy, and I said to myself, this is it, I want a piece of that." . Jones also appeared with Georgia Brown on the Merv Griffin Show around the same time.

Following his Ed Sullivan appearance, Jones signed a contract with Ward Sylvester of Screen Gems (at that time the television division of Columbia Pictures). A pair of U.S. television appearances followed, as Jones received screen time in episodes of Ben Casey and The Farmer's Daughter.

Jones debuted on the Billboard Hot 100 in the week of 14 August 1965, with the single "What Are We Going To Do?", which peaked at number 93. The 19-year-old singer was signed to Colpix Records, a label owned by Columbia. His debut album, David Jones, on the same label, followed soon afterward (CP493).

The Monkees (1966–1970)
From 1966 to 1970, Jones was a member of the Monkees, a pop-rock band formed expressly for a television show of the same name. With Screen Gems producing the series, Jones was shortlisted for auditions, as he was the only Monkee who was signed to a deal with the studio, but still had to meet the standards of producers Bob Rafelson and Bert Schneider. Jones sang lead vocals on many of the Monkees' recordings, including "I Wanna Be Free" and "Daydream Believer". The DVD release of the first season of the show contained commentary from the various bandmates. In Peter Tork's commentary, he stated that Jones was a good drummer and had the live performance line-up been based solely on playing ability, it ought to have been Tork on guitar, Mike Nesmith on bass, and Jones on drums, with Micky Dolenz taking the fronting role, rather than as it was done (with Nesmith on guitar, Tork on bass, and Dolenz on drums). Like Peter Tork, Jones, despite playing mostly tambourine or maracas, was a multi-instrumentalist and would fill in for Tork on bass when he played keyboards and vice versa and for Dolenz on drums when the Monkees performed live concerts.

The Monkees officially disbanded in 1970. The NBC television series The Monkees was popular and remained in syndication.

Post-Monkees career (1970–2012)
Bell Records, then having a string of hits with The Partridge Family, signed Jones to a somewhat inflexible solo record contract in 1971. Jones was not allowed to choose his songs or producer, resulting in several lacklustre and aimless records. His second solo album, Davy Jones (1971) was notable for the song "Rainy Jane", which reached No. 52 in the Billboard charts. To promote the album, Jones performed "Girl" on an episode of The Brady Bunch entitled "Getting Davy Jones". Although the single sold poorly, the popularity of Jones' appearance on the show resulted in "Girl" becoming his best-remembered solo hit, even though it was not included in the album. The final single, "I'll Believe In You"/"Road to Love", was poorly received.

Dolenz, Jones, Boyce & Hart (1976)
Thanks in part to reruns of The Monkees on Saturday mornings and in syndication, The Monkees Greatest Hits charted in 1976. The LP, issued by Arista (a subsidiary of Screen Gems), was actually a repackaging of a 1972 compilation LP called Refocus that had been issued by Arista's previous label imprint, Bell Records, also owned by Screen Gems.

Dolenz and Jones took advantage of this, joining ex-Monkees songwriters Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart to tour the United States. From 1975 to 1977, as the "Golden Hits of The Monkees" show ("The Guys who Wrote 'Em and the Guys who Sang 'Em!"), they successfully performed in smaller venues such as state fairs and amusement parks as well as making stops in Japan, Thailand, and Singapore (although they were forbidden from using the "Monkees" name, as it was owned by Screen Gems at the time). They also released an album of new material appropriately as Dolenz, Jones, Boyce & Hart; a live album entitled Concert in Japan was also recorded in 1976, but was not released until 1996.

Further stage and screen appearances (1977–1999)
Despite his initial high-profile after the Monkees disbanded, Jones struggled to establish himself as a solo music artist. Glenn A. Baker, author of Monkeemania: The True Story of the Monkees, commented in 1986 that "for an artist as versatile and confident as (Davy) Jones, the relative failure of his post-Monkees activities is puzzling. For all his cocky predictions to the press about his future plans, Davy fell into a directionless heap when left to his own devices."

Jones returned to theatre several times after the Monkees disbanded. In 1977, he performed with former bandmate Micky Dolenz in a stage production of the Harry Nilsson musical The Point! in London at the Mermaid Theatre, playing and singing the starring role of "Oblio" to Dolenz' roles as the "Count's Kid" and the "Leafman", (according to the CD booklet). An original cast recording was made and released. The comedic chemistry of Jones and Dolenz proved so strong that the show was revived in 1978 with Nilsson inserting additional comedy for the two, plus two more songs, with one of them ("Gotta Get Up") being sung by Jones and Dolenz. The show was considered so good that it was planned to be revived again in 1979 but it proved cost prohibitive (source CD booklet "Harry Nilsson's The Point"). Jones also appeared in several productions of Oliver! as the Artful Dodger, and in 1989 toured the US portraying "Fagin".

Jones appeared in two episodes each of Love, American Style and My Two Dads. Jones also appeared in animated form as himself in 1972 in an hour-long episode of The New Scooby-Doo Movies.

A Monkees television show marathon ("Pleasant Valley Sunday") broadcast on 23 February 1986 by MTV resulted in a wave of Monkeemania not seen since the band's heyday. Jones reunited with Dolenz and Peter Tork from 1986 to 1989 to celebrate the band's renewed success and promote the 20th anniversary of the band. A new top 20 hit, "That Was Then, This Is Now" was released (though Jones did not perform on the song) as well as an album, Pool It!

In 1996, Jones reunited with Dolenz, Tork and Michael Nesmith to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the Monkees. The band released a new album entitled Justus, the first album since 1967's Headquarters that featured the band members performing all instrumental duties. It was the last time all four Monkees performed together.

Other television appearances include Sledge Hammer!, Boy Meets World, Hey Arnold!, The Single Guy (where he is mistaken for Dudley Moore) and Sabrina, the Teenage Witch in which he sang "Daydream Believer" to Sabrina Spellman (played by Melissa Joan Hart) as well as (I'll) Love You Forever. In 1995, Jones acted in a notable episode of the sitcom Boy Meets World.

The continued popularity of Jones' 1971 Brady Bunch appearance led to his being cast as himself in The Brady Bunch Movie (1995). Jones sang his signature solo hit "Girl", with a grunge band providing backing, this time with middle-aged women swooning over him. Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork also appeared alongside Jones as judges.

On 2 August 1996, while The Monkees were on their 30th-anniversary tour in New England, Jones was interviewed on the "Sports Break" radio show on WBPS 890-AM in Boston by host Roland Regan about his early days as a jockey and amateur boxer back in England as a youth, and now how he stays in shape by jogging and playing in celebrity tennis tournaments.

On 21 June 1997, during a concert at the Los Angeles Coliseum, Jones joined U2's The Edge onstage for a karaoke performance of "Daydream Believer", which had become a fixture of the band's set during that year's PopMart Tour.

Later career (2000–2012)

In 2001, Jones released Just Me, an album of his own songs, some written for the album and others originally on Monkees releases. In the early 2000s he was performing in the Flower Power Concert Series during Epcot's Flower and Garden Festival, a yearly gig he would continue until his death.

In April 2006, Jones recorded the single "Your Personal Penguin", written by children's author Sandra Boynton, as a companion piece to her new board book of the same title.

In 2007, Jones performed the theme song for the film Sexina: Popstar P.I.. On 1 November 2007, the Boynton book and CD titled Blue Moo was released and Jones is featured in both the book and CD, singing "Your Personal Penguin". In 2009, Jones released a collection of classics and standards from the 1940s through the 1970s entitled She.

In December 2008, Yahoo! Music named Jones the "Number 1 teen idol of all time". In 2009, Jones was rated second in a list of 10 best teen idols compiled by Fox News.

In 2009, Jones made a cameo appearance as himself in the SpongeBob SquarePants episode "SpongeBob SquarePants vs. The Big One" (his appearance was meant as a pun on the phrase "Davy Jones' Locker").

In February 2011, Jones confirmed rumours of another Monkees reunion. "There's even talk of putting the Monkees back together again in the next year or so for a U.S. and UK tour," he told Disney's Backstage Pass newsletter. "You're always hearing all those great songs on the radio, in commercials, movies, almost everywhere." The tour (Jones' last) came to fruition and was entitled An Evening with The Monkees: The 45th Anniversary Tour.

Other ventures
In 1967, Jones opened his first store, called Zilch, at 217 Thompson Street in the Greenwich Village section of New York City. The store sold "hip" clothing and accessories, and also allowed customers to design their own clothes.

After the Monkees disbanded in 1970, Jones kept himself busy by establishing a New York City-style street market in Los Angeles, called "The Street", which cost approximately $40,000. He also collaborated with musical director Doug Trevor on a one-hour ABC television special titled Pop Goes Davy Jones, which featured new artists The Jackson 5 and the Osmonds.

Horse racing
In addition to his career as an entertainer, Jones' other great love was horses. Having trained as a jockey in his teens in the UK, he had at first intended to pursue a career as a professional race jockey. He held an amateur rider's licence, and rode in his first race at Newbury in Berkshire for renowned trainer Toby Balding.

On 1 February 1996, Jones won his first race, on Digpast, in the one-mile Ontario Amateur Riders Handicap at Lingfield in Surrey. Jones also had horse ownership interests in both the US and the UK, and served as a commercial spokesman for Colonial Downs racetrack in Virginia. Following Jones' death, Lingfield announced that the first two races on the racecard for 3 March 2012 would be renamed the "Hey Hey We're The Monkees Handicap" and the "In Memory of Davy Jones Selling Stakes", with successful horses in those races accompanied into the winners' enclosure by some of the Monkees' biggest hits. Plans were also announced to erect a plaque to commemorate Jones next to a Monkey Puzzle tree on the course.

Personal life
Jones was married three times and had four children. In December 1967, he married Dixie Linda Haines, with whom he had been living. Their relationship had been kept out of the public eye until after the birth of their first child in October 1968. It caused a considerable backlash for Jones from his fans when it was finally made public. Jones later stated in Tiger Beat magazine, "I kept my marriage a secret because I believe stars should be allowed a private life." Jones and Haines had two daughters, Talia Elizabeth Jones (2 October 1968) and Sarah Lee Jones (3 July 1971). The marriage ended in 1975.

Jones married his second wife, Anita Pollinger, on 24 January 1981, and also had two daughters. Jessica Lillian Jones (4 September 1981) and Annabel Charlotte Jones (26 June 1988). The couple divorced in 1996 during the Monkees' 30th-anniversary reunion tour.

Jones married Jessica Pacheco in 2009. Jones and his wife appeared on the Dr. Phil show in April 2011. On 28 July 2011, Pacheco filed to divorce Jones in Miami-Dade County, Florida, but dropped the suit in October. They were still married when he died in February 2012. Pacheco was omitted from Jones' will, which he had made before their marriage. His oldest daughter, whom he named his executrix, was granted by the court the unusual request that her father's will be sealed, on the basis that "planning documents and financial affairs as public opinion could have a material effect on his copyrights, royalties and ongoing goodwill"."

Death
On the morning of 29 February 2012, Jones went to tend his 14 horses at a farm in Indiantown, Florida. After riding one of his favourite horses around the track, he complained of chest pains and difficulty breathing and was given antacid pills. He got in his car to go home. Just after 8:00 a.m., a ranch-hand found him unconscious and an ambulance was called but Jones could not be revived. He was taken to Martin Memorial South Hospital in Stuart, Florida, where he died of a heart attack resulting from arteriosclerosis. He was 66.

On 7 March, a private funeral service was held at Holy Cross Catholic parish church in Indiantown. To avoid drawing attention to the grieving family, the three surviving Monkees did not attend. Instead, the bandmates attended memorial services in New York City and organised their own private memorial in Los Angeles along with Jones' family and close friends. A public memorial service was held on 10 March in Beavertown, Pennsylvania, near a church Jones had purchased for future renovation.

On 12 March, a private memorial service was held in Jones' hometown of Openshaw, Manchester, at Lees Street Congregational Church, where Jones performed as a child in church plays. Jones' wife and daughters travelled to England to join his relatives based there for the service, and placed his ashes on his parents' graves for a time.

Reaction
The news of Jones' death triggered a surge of Internet traffic, causing sales of the Monkees' music to increase dramatically.

Guitarist Michael Nesmith stated that Jones' "spirit and soul live well in my heart, among all the lovely people, who remember with me the good times, and the healing times, that were created for so many, including us. I have fond memories. I wish him safe travels." In an 8 March 2012 interview with Rolling Stone magazine, Nesmith commented, "For me, David was the Monkees. They were his band. We were his side men." Bassist Peter Tork said, "Adios to the Manchester Cowboy", and speaking to CNN, drummer/singer Micky Dolenz said, "He was the brother I never had and this leaves a gigantic hole in my heart." Dolenz claimed that he knew that something bad was about to happen and said "Can't believe it.. Still in shock.. had bad dreams all night long." Dolenz was gratified by the public affection expressed for both Jones and the Monkees in the wake of his bandmate's death. "He was a very well-known and well-loved character and person. There are a lot of people who are grieving pretty hard. The Monkees obviously had a following, and so did (Jones) on his own. So I'm not surprised, but I was flattered and honored to be considered one of his friends and a cohort in Monkee business."

The Monkees co-creator Bob Rafelson commented that Jones "deserves a lot of credit, let me tell you. He may not have lived as long as we wanted him to, but he survived about seven lifetimes, including being perhaps the biggest rock star of his time."

Brady Bunch co-star Maureen McCormick commented that "Davy was a beautiful soul," and that he "spread love and goodness around the world. He filled our lives with happiness, music, and joy. He will live on in our hearts forever. May he rest in peace."

Yahoo! Music commented that Jones' death "hit so many people so hard" because "Monkees nostalgia cuts across generations: from the people who discovered the band during their original 1960s run; to the kids who came of age watching 1970s reruns; to the 20- and 30-somethings who discovered the Monkees when MTV (a network that owes much to the Monkees' influence) began airing old episodes in 1986."

Time contributor James Poniewozik praised the Monkees' classic sitcom, and Jones in particular, saying, "even if the show never meant to be more than entertainment and a hit-single generator, we shouldn't sell The Monkees short. It was far better television than it had to be; during an era of formulaic domestic sitcoms and wacky comedies, it was a stylistically ambitious show, with a distinctive visual style, absurdist sense of humor and unusual story structure. Whatever Jones and the Monkees were meant to be, they became creative artists in their own right, and Jones' chipper Brit-pop presence was a big reason they were able to produce work that was commercial, wholesome, and yet impressively weird."

Mediaite columnist Paul Levinson noted, "The Monkees were the first example of something created in a medium – in this case, a rock band on television – that jumped off the screen to have big impact in the real world."

Albums

 * David Jones (1965)
 * Davy Jones (1971)
 * The Point (1978)
 * Incredible Revisited (1988)
 * It's Christmas Time Again (1991)
 * Just Me (2001)
 * Just Me 2 (2004)
 * She (2009)

Books

 * They Made a Monkee Out of Me, autobiography (print book) by Davy Jones, Dome PR, 1987, ISBN 978-0-9618614-0-7.
 * They Made a Monkee Out of Me: Davy Jones Reads His Autobiography, (audiobook), Dove Entertainment Inc (November 1988).
 * Mutant Monkees Meet the Masters of the Multimedia Manipulation Machine! Written with Alan Green, Click! Publishing, First Edition, 1992, (softcover) ISBN 0-9631235-0-5
 * Daydream Believin, Hercules Promotions, First Edition, ISBN 0-9618614-1-X (2000)

title: Davy Jones (musician)


text:
Discharge

Discharge may refer to

Expel or let go

 * Discharge, the act of firing a gun
 * Discharge, or termination of employment, the end of an employee's duration with an employer
 * Military discharge, the release of a member of the armed forces from service

Flow

 * Discharge (hydrology), the amount of water flowing through the channel
 * Effluent released into a river or sea
 * Groundwater discharge, the volumetric flow rate of groundwater through an aquifer
 * Discharging method (discrete mathematics) is a proof technique in discrete mathematics
 * Electric discharge:
 * Corona discharge, a type of electric current
 * Direct-current discharge, a plasma
 * Discharger, an electrical device that releases stored energy
 * Battery discharging
 * Static discharger, a device used on airplanes to maintain use of electrical equipment
 * Electrostatic discharge, sudden and momentary electric current flows between two objects
 * Dielectric barrier discharge, the electrical discharge between two electrodes separated by an insulating dielectric barrier
 * Gas-discharge lamp, a light bulb that includes a discharge gas
 * Partial discharge, a temporary breakdown of electrical insulation

Government and Law

 * Discharge (sentence), a criminal sentence where no punishment is imposed
 * Bankruptcy discharge, the injunction that bars acts to enforce certain debts
 * Discharge petition, the process of bringing a bill out of committee to the floor for a vote without the cooperation of leadership

Healthcare

 * Discharge, the flow of fluids from certain parts of the body:
 * Menstruation or other vaginal discharge
 * Mucopurulent discharge, the emission or secretion of fluid containing mucus and pus
 * Nipple discharge, the release of fluid from the nipples of the breasts
 * Emotional discharge, in co-counselling, the ways in which pent-up emotional hurt can be released, e.g. via crying, laughter, etc.
 * Patient discharge, the formal ending of inpatient care

Music

 * Discharge (album), a self-titled album by Discharge released in 2002
 * Discharge (band), British hardcore punk band
 * "Discharge", a song by Anthrax from Persistence of Time

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Discharge


text:
Dolly (sheep)

Dolly (5 July 1996 – 14 February 2003) was a female Finn-Dorset sheep and the first mammal that was cloned from an adult somatic cell. She was cloned by associates of the Roslin Institute in Scotland, using the process of nuclear transfer from a cell taken from a mammary gland. Her cloning proved that a cloned organism could be produced from a mature cell from a specific body part. Contrary to popular belief, she was not the first animal to be cloned.

The employment of adult somatic cells in lieu of embryonic stem cells for cloning emerged from the foundational work of John Gurdon, who cloned African clawed frogs in 1958 with this approach. The successful cloning of Dolly led to widespread advancements within stem cell research, including the discovery of induced pluripotent stem cells.

Dolly lived at the Roslin Institute throughout her life and produced several lambs. She was euthanized at the age of six years due to a progressive lung disease. No cause which linked the disease to her cloning was found.

Dolly's body was preserved and donated by the Roslin Institute in Scotland to the National Museum of Scotland, where it has been regularly exhibited since 2003.

Genesis
Dolly was cloned by Keith Campbell, Ian Wilmut and colleagues at the Roslin Institute, part of the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, and the biotechnology company PPL Therapeutics, based near Edinburgh. The funding for Dolly's cloning was provided by PPL Therapeutics and the Ministry of Agriculture. She was born on 5 July 1996 and died on 14 February 2003 from a progressive lung disease that was considered unrelated to her being a clone. She has been called "the world's most famous sheep" by sources including BBC News and Scientific American.

The cell used as the donor for the cloning of Dolly was taken from a mammary gland, and the production of a healthy clone, therefore, proved that a cell taken from a specific part of the body could recreate a whole individual. On Dolly's name, Wilmut stated "Dolly is derived from a mammary gland cell and we couldn't think of a more impressive pair of glands than Dolly Parton's."

Birth
Dolly was born on 5 July 1996 and had three mothers: one provided the egg, another the DNA, and a third carried the cloned embryo to term. She was created using the technique of somatic cell nuclear transfer, where the cell nucleus from an adult cell is transferred into an unfertilized oocyte (developing egg cell) that has had its cell nucleus removed. The hybrid cell is then stimulated to divide by an electric shock, and when it develops into a blastocyst it is implanted in a surrogate mother. Dolly was the first clone produced from a cell taken from an adult mammal. The production of Dolly showed that genes in the nucleus of such a mature differentiated somatic cell are still capable of reverting to an embryonic totipotent state, creating a cell that can then go on to develop into any part of an animal.

Dolly's existence was announced to the public on 22 February 1997. It gained much attention in the media. A commercial with Scottish scientists playing with sheep was aired on TV, and a special report in Time magazine featured Dolly. Science featured Dolly as the breakthrough of the year. Even though Dolly was not the first animal cloned, she received media attention because she was the first cloned from an adult cell.

Life
Dolly lived her entire life at the Roslin Institute in Midlothian. There she was bred with a Welsh Mountain ram and produced six lambs in total. Her first lamb, named Bonnie, was born in April 1998. The next year, Dolly produced twin lambs Sally and Rosie; further, she gave birth to triplets Lucy, Darcy and Cotton in 2000. In late 2001, at the age of four, Dolly developed arthritis and began to walk stiffly. This was treated with anti-inflammatory drugs.

Death
On 14 February 2003, Dolly was euthanised because she had a progressive lung disease and severe arthritis. A Finn Dorset such as Dolly has a life expectancy of around 11 to 12 years, but Dolly lived 6.5 years. A post-mortem examination showed she had a form of lung cancer called ovine pulmonary adenocarcinoma, also known as Jaagsiekte, which is a fairly common disease of sheep and is caused by the retrovirus JSRV. Roslin scientists stated that they did not think there was a connection with Dolly being a clone, and that other sheep in the same flock had died of the same disease. Such lung diseases are a particular danger for sheep kept indoors, and Dolly had to sleep inside for security reasons.

Some in the press speculated that a contributing factor to Dolly's death was that she could have been born with a genetic age of six years, the same age as the sheep from which she was cloned. One basis for this idea was the finding that Dolly's telomeres were short, which is typically a result of the aging process. The Roslin Institute stated that intensive health screening did not reveal any abnormalities in Dolly that could have come from advanced aging.

In 2016, scientists reported no defects in thirteen cloned sheep, including four from the same cell line as Dolly. The first study to review the long-term health outcomes of cloning, the authors found no evidence of late-onset, non-communicable diseases other than some minor examples of osteoarthritis and concluded "We could find no evidence, therefore, of a detrimental long-term effect of cloning by SCNT on the health of aged offspring among our cohort."

After her death Dolly's body was preserved via taxidermy and is currently on display at the National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh.

Legacy
After cloning was successfully demonstrated through the production of Dolly, many other large mammals were cloned, including pigs, deer, horses and bulls. The attempt to clone argali (mountain sheep) did not produce viable embryos. The attempt to clone a banteng bull was more successful, as were the attempts to clone mouflon (a form of wild sheep), both resulting in viable offspring. The reprogramming process that cells need to go through during cloning is not perfect and embryos produced by nuclear transfer often show abnormal development. Making cloned mammals was highly inefficient – in 1996, Dolly was the only lamb that survived to adulthood from 277 attempts. By 2014, Chinese scientists were reported to have 70–80% success rates cloning pigs, and in 2016, a Korean company, Sooam Biotech, was producing 500 cloned embryos a day. Wilmut, who led the team that created Dolly, announced in 2007 that the nuclear transfer technique may never be sufficiently efficient for use in humans.

Cloning may have uses in preserving endangered species, and may become a viable tool for reviving extinct species. In January 2009, scientists from the Centre of Food Technology and Research of Aragon in northern Spain announced the cloning of the Pyrenean ibex, a form of wild mountain goat, which was officially declared extinct in 2000. Although the newborn ibex died shortly after birth due to physical defects in its lungs, it is the first time an extinct animal has been cloned, and may open doors for saving endangered and newly extinct species by resurrecting them from frozen tissue.

In July 2016, four identical clones of Dolly (Daisy, Debbie, Dianna, and Denise) were alive and healthy at nine years old.

Scientific American concluded in 2016 that the main legacy of Dolly has not been cloning of animals but in advances into stem cell research. After Dolly, researchers realised that ordinary cells could be reprogrammed to induced pluripotent stem cells, which can be grown into any tissue.

The first successful cloning of a primate species was reported in January 2018, using the same method which produced Dolly. Two identical clones of a macaque monkey, Zhong Zhong and Hua Hua, were created by researchers in China and were born in late 2017.

In January 2019, scientists in China reported the creation of five identical cloned gene-edited monkeys, again using this method, and the gene-editing CRISPR-Cas9 technique allegedly used by He Jiankui in creating the first ever gene-modified human babies Lulu and Nana. The monkey clones were made in order to study several medical diseases.

title: Dolly (sheep)


text:
Talk:Dolly (sheep)

Article Evaluation
The Lead of the article does provide a concise introductory sentence that summarizes the article as a whole, therefore allowing for the general viewers to obtain an idea of what the article will contain. However, the lead is only composed of one sentence. It does not include a brief description of the article's major sections which hold a significant part in informing the viewers, like myself, the exact contents of the article. Overall, the Lead is lacking in detail and should be updated to include a brief description of each of the article's major sections: the Genesis, Birth, Life, Death, and Legacy of Dolly. On a side note, this article contains many strengths, such as the "Legacy" section that provided a great amount of explanation as to why this phenomenon led the way to future scientific findings. Providing information about other successful animal cloning, such as the primate species, was also a really nice touch. Having just learned about Dolly, it's astonishing to know about other recent studies that have used the same cloning techniques used on Dolly. Another strength is that the content is up-to-date. There are many new studies cited within this article that contain information about other animal cloning experiments. I found myself skimming through these numerous articles cited below in the References.

This article can still be improved in some areas. For example, the "Life" section of the article contains very little information about Dolly's life, despite her living up to 6.5 years! Although mentioned that she lived her entire life in the Institute that she was cloned in, how exactly was she raised? Was she kept together with other sheep, or isolated for research purposes? I was expecting to learn more about her upbringing, but did not quite get the information I was looking for. I would recommend to update this section with more details concerning her life, as the current version leaves me with many questions. Kaira Hosnedl (talk) 18:44, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

 * the first paragraph contains 2 contrary arguments. first animal or not first animal to be cloned? Araz Zeyniyev (talk) 13:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2022
Please remove this sentence:

She was born on 5 July 1996 and died from a progressive lung disease five months before her seventh birthday (the disease was not considered related to her being a clone) on 14 February 2003.

and add this one:

She was born on 5 July 1996 and died on 14 February 2003 from a progressive lung disease that was considered unrelated to her being a clone.

Better to put the dates closer to each other, and her age at death (if needed) can easily be inferred from the dates. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 21:21, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ I agree, the age is in the info box and also mentioned elsewhere in the article. RudolfRed (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Dolly's lambs
There is no followup on Dolly's lambs. One would expect their centromeres, health, and lifespan to be normal and similar to their female grandparent and male parent, but this is not confirmed. Scott McNay (talk) 11:53, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Suggested section to be added
I suggest an Ethical Questions section (or sub-section under Legacy) providing an overview of pros and cons that have been raised in research, medicine, and socio-cultural fields. There is an ethics of cloning article on Wikipedia that could be linked for further discussion beyond questions specific to Dolly and her legacy. The mention of genetically modified human babies in this article I think should be linked to the Wikipedia article human genetic enhancement for more discussion of th topic (and ethics) beyond the tangential connection to Dolly here. 2A0D:6FC2:6250:F600:9515:E982:82DF:B3A7 (talk) 11:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Cloners
"Dolly was cloned by Keith Campbell, Ian Wilmut and colleagues at the Roslin Institute,"

"Professor Ian Wilmut - the scientist widely credited for the research - that he did not create the animal after all. Speaking at an employment tribunal in Edinburgh, Prof Wilmut said he did not develop the technology or conduct the experiments, and played only a supervisory role." source: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2006/mar/11/genetics.highereducation

The people who did the actual cloning were Karen Walker (nee Mycock) and Bill Richie. Prof Keith Campbell was the person who supervised, and co-authored the paper on the cloning of Dolly. 87.254.75.148 (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dolly (sheep)


text:
Talk:Dante Alighieri

Florentine or Italian
What defines a culture is always contentious and not clear cut, but since Italy did not exist for 600 years after the birth of Dante, shouldn't it be more correct to define him as Florentine? On the other hand, he left Florence and lived most of his later life around northern Italy. Eccekevin (talk) 04:11, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Nationality is not tied to the existence of a state
 * Hebrews were Hebrews even without Israel. Curds are Curds without a stare. Or isn't  Beethoven German? 79.20.207.69 (talk) 22:55, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Both: the modern Italian nation was created in the 19th century but Italy as a geographical area has been existing since the ancient Roman times. Claiming that Dante was not Italian would be like claiming that present day Italians, Norwegians, Germans, etc., are not European. Pier, 17 September 2021 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.105.243.141 (talk) 12:15, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This issue has taken several forms. Compare Talk:Immanuel Kant, Archive 6, sections 18 and 62; there is now a consensus that Kant should be referred to as German, partly in recognition that a "German" culture and national consciousness preceded the creation of a state named "Germany" in the nineteenth century. MOS is vague - MOS:CONTEXTBIO. I'd say that for Dante we should go by the fact (as I think it is), however it has come about, that he is universally counted as Italian. A "Florentine" today (I think) is a person from the Italian city of Florence (Firenze), not necessarily thinking of the city's independent history. Errantios (talk) 11:36, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Antonia Alighieri
Dante Alighieri has a less known sister whise name was Antonia. During hist last period lived in Ravenna, she left Florence to near with Dante with his family. Susequently, she become a Roman Catholic nun under the monastic name of BEATRICE. We don't know exactly the type of link with the Beatrice named in the Divina commedia. Possibly, there exist the article Antonia Alighieri which still waits to be translated into English. Best regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.223.69.163 (talk) 13:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have corrected your "noun" to "nun", amica/o—they are different nouns. Errantios (talk) 22:40, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Possible fringe and OR information
Dante Alighieri was an Italian poet, note: "Though an Italian nation state had yet to be established, the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity".
 * This information is based on the letter of Pliny the Elder((AD 23/24 – AD 79), Letters 9.23. [23] L To Maximus. [] "He said that he was sitting by the side of a certain individual at the last Circensian games, and that, after they had had a long and learned talk on a variety of subjects, his acquaintance said to him: "Are you from Italy or the provinces?" Tacitus replied : "You know me quite well, and that from the books of mine you have read."   "Then," said the man, "you are either Tacitus or Pliny."

It is a primary source WP:PRIMARY, and secondary source in this sense does not exist. Given that the primary source only mentions: "Are you from Italy or the provinces?" and the article contains information: "the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity", it is obviously a violation of the rules of wikipedia ie. WP:OR and WP:FRINGE since there is no secondary source that states this and also information from the article in this sense and with this fact, has not been published anywhere, that is, it does not exist anywhere. Based on the above reasons, I suggest that this information be removed from the article because it does not comply with the rules. Thank you. Mikola22 (talk) 14:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

 * It's fine to quote primary sources, but obviously the second part is an editorial deduction. Let's cut it now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap Thanks for the answer, can you please show me or quote me where Pliny the Elder says: "the Latin equivalent of the term Italian (italus) had been in use for natives of the region since antiquity"? and in which context it concerns Dante Alighieri? Mikola22 (talk) 15:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I cut it already, but hey. The editorial deduction was possibly OR but nothing more. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Are you maintaining that "Italian" is an invalid term when applied to someone living in Dante's times? Does this entry in Lewis & Short's dictionary, where the Pliny source you've referred to is only one of the many citations, convince you that "Italian" has been used since ancient times? Since the Encyclopaedia Britannica calls Dante an "Italian poet, prose writer, literary theorist, moral philosopher, and political thinker", I don't think our characterization is particularly "fringe" or debatable. Deor (talk) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Deor My proposal is related to this situation ie information. You can open another topic so we can discuss it. Is this information fringe or OR? Mikola22 (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dante Alighieri


text:
Talk:Druze

Discussing changes suggested to introduction
Please lets discuss these points on the current Druze article versus my suggested changes :

-

The Druze faith is an esoteric monotheistic religion based on the teachings of several Ismaili figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Muqtana Baha'uddin who were influenced by Greek philosophers such as Plato ,Aristotle and Plotinus.

Versus The Druze faith is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the teachings of high Islamic figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, and Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

Reason for Edit : - The main distiction about the Druze faith is being esoteric Batini this should be mentioned

- Druze are not an Abrahamic religion but monotheist, the position of Abraham is different for the Druze than the three abrahamic faiths

- high Islamic figures is not accurate, the prophet mohammad is a high islamic figure , Hamza was a preacher , Al-Hakim was the Fatimid Caliph , a more historically accurate and appropriate description is Ismaili

---

and other philosophies and beliefs, creating a distinct syncretic and secretive theology that is passed on through initiation

Verus :

and secretive theology known to interpret esoterically religious scriptures, and to highlight the role of the mind and truthfulness.

Reason for Edit :

Role of the mind and truthfulness is an over simplification of the Druze theology and its the universal mind nous rather than mind as human mind

−	Also

Druze are theologically distinct from Muslims due to their eclectic system of doctrines such as the belief in theophany and reincarnation. , although Al Azhar of Egypt recognized them in 1959 as one of the Islamic sects in the Al-Azhar Shia Fatwa. −		 −		 −	The Druze were subjected to persecution due to political and religious reasons during the Fatimid, Mamluks and Ottomans rule. Most recently, Druze were targeted by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Al-Qaeda in order to cleanse Syria and neighboring countries of non-Islamic influence.

Reason for Edit : Its important to mention main difference between Druze and orthodox islam as well the source of Fatwa

Also subsituted the persecution paragraph with a summary since its the introduction and details are found in body — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiram111 (talk • contribs)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiram111 (talk • contribs)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 September 2023
(Disclaimer: I don't speak Arabic, so it would be nice to have an Arabic speaker corroborate or correct me.)

The Arabic words in the lead seem to contain extraneous ḍammāt word-finally, so that they say darziyyu, durziyyu, and durūzu rather than darzī, durzī, and durūz (following the MOS's transliteration conventions for Arabic). So, I propose that we remove the ḍammāt to bring the Arabic text in line with the transliterations; i.e., change the beginning of the lead from the following:

"The Druze (دَرْزِيٌّ, darzī or دُرْزِيٌّ durzī, pl. دُرُوزٌ, durūz), known to adherents as al-Muwaḥḥidūn (Monotheists) or Muwaḥḥidūn (unitarians), are..."

to the following:

"The Druze (دَرْزِيّ, darzī or دُرْزِيّ durzī, pl. دُرُوز, durūz), known to adherents as al-Muwaḥḥidūn (Monotheists) or Muwaḥḥidūn (unitarians), are..."

I checked some Arabic dictionaries, and none of the ones I found that include vowel diacritics put a ḍammah at the end: Pons, Almaany, Bab.la, Sakhr. LethologicalLinguophile (talk) 19:00, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ I don't speak Arabic either, but this has been uncontested for a month, so assume good faith. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 December 2023
89.115.113.22 (talk) 09:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC) druse are good people and are basically apart of islam
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Confusion?
In Druze, I see this confusing statement: "... state that this confusion is due to confusion about ...". Can someone elaborate and/or explain? Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 21:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Yeah I didn’t get this 82.37.100.240 (talk) 22:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Redundancy in the Lead Section
"Adherents of the Druze religion call themselves simply 'the Monotheists' (al-Muwaḥḥidūn)" is already stated in the opening sentence ("The Druze, who call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn (lit. 'the monotheists' or 'the unitarians')..."). Remove the "Adherents of..." sentence, redirect "al-Muwaḥḥidūn" or "the monotheists" in the opening sentence to "The People of Monotheism", and move the source (Wendy Doniger, 1999) to after the phrase "who call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn (lit. 'the monotheists' or 'the unitarians')".
 * ✅  Delta  space 42 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Druze


text:
Dolores Fuller

Dolores Agnes Fuller ( Eble, later Chamberlin; March 10, 1923 – May 9, 2011 ) was an American actress and songwriter known as the one-time girlfriend of the low-budget film director Ed Wood. She played the protagonist's girlfriend in Glen or Glenda, co-starred in Wood's Jail Bait, and had a minor role in his Bride of the Monster. After she broke up with Wood in 1955, she relocated to New York and had a very successful career there as a songwriter. Elvis Presley recorded a number of her songs written for his films.

Film career
Her first screen appearance was at the age of 10, when she appeared briefly in Frank Capra's It Happened One Night. According to Fuller, the female lead in Bride of the Monster was written for her but Wood gave it to Loretta King instead.

In August 1954, Fuller was cast in Wood's The Vampire's Tomb, intended to star Bela Lugosi. Frank Yaconelli was named as her co-star and 'comic killer'. The film was never made. She ended up making an appearance in Bride of the Monster (1956), also with Lugosi. Fuller hosted a benefit for Lugosi which preceded the showing of Bride of the Atom (early working title of Bride of the Monster) on May 11, 1955. A cocktail party was held at the Gardens Restaurant at 4311 Magnolia Avenue in Burbank, California. Vampira attended and was escorted by Paul Marco. A single screening of the film was presented at the Hollywood Paramount.

According to Fuller, as quoted in Wood biography Nightmare of Ecstasy (1992), she first met Ed Wood when she attended a casting call with a friend for a movie he was supposed to direct called Behind Locked Doors (which he did not go on to direct); it has also been stated that they met in a restaurant.

She became his girlfriend shortly thereafter and began acting in his films. Her movie career included a bit part in It Happened One Night (1934) and roles in Outlaw Women (1952), Glen or Glenda (1953), Body Beautiful (1953), The Blue Gardenia (1953), Count the Hours (1953), Mesa of Lost Women (1953), College Capers (1954), Jail Bait (1954), The Raid (1954), This Is My Love (1954), The Opposite Sex (1956), and many years later appearances in The Ironbound Vampire (1997) and Dimensions in Fear (1998).

Television performer and songwriter
Fuller had already had earlier experience on television in Queen for a Day and The Dinah Shore Show.

She also appeared on an episode of It's a Great Life as "the blonde in the mink coat."

Fuller's ability as a songwriter manifested itself through the intervention of her friend, producer Hal Wallis; Fuller had wanted to get an acting role in the Elvis Presley movie Blue Hawaii, which Wallis was producing, but instead he put her in touch with Hill & Range, the publisher that provided Presley with songs. Fuller went into a collaborative partnership with composer Ben Weisman and co-wrote one song, "Rock-A-Hula Baby", for the film. Over time, this led to Presley recording a dozen of her songs, including "I Got Lucky" and "Spinout", primarily for his film soundtracks, though he also recorded "Cindy, Cindy" for his 1971 album Love Letters From Elvis. Fuller's music was also recorded by Nat 'King' Cole, Peggy Lee, and other leading talents of the time. Toward the end of her life, Dolores helped edit and score a short western film Ed Wood had begun, but never completed, in the 1940s called Crossroads of Laredo

Private life
Dolores married Donald Fuller in 1941, with whom she had two children. At the time she met Ed Wood, she was in the process of divorcing her husband (they finally divorced in 1955). She and Wood shared an apartment together for several years. Wood biographer Rudolph Grey quotes Fuller as saying of the period before her success, "He [Ed Wood] begged me to marry him. I loved him in a way, but I couldn't handle the transvestism. I'm a very normal person. It's hard for me to deviate! I wanted a man that was all man… After we broke up, he would stand outside my home in Burbank and cry. 'Let me in, I love you!' What good would I have done if I had married him? We would have starved together… I bettered myself. I had to uplift myself." She has also been quoted as saying that "His dressing up didn't bother me—we all have our little queer habits" and giving Wood's drinking as the reason for their breakup.

Dolores remarried in 1988 at age 65, to Philip Chamberlin, and they remained married until her death in 2011. Fuller's autobiography, A Fuller Life: Hollywood, Ed Wood and Me, co-authored by Winnipeg writer Stone Wallace and her husband Philip Chamberlin, was published in 2008.

Portrayal in Ed Wood
Fuller was portrayed by Sarah Jessica Parker in Tim Burton's 1994 Wood biographical film Ed Wood, a portrayal of which she disapproved due to the fact that she was depicted smoking in the film, while Fuller said she herself was a lifelong non-smoker. She also complained that she was only portrayed as "sort of as an actress" and did not feel she was given credit for her other accomplishments and contributions towards Wood's career. However, she stated that she liked the film overall, praising Johnny Depp's performance in the title role.

Discography
Songs recorded by Elvis Presley with lyrics by Dolores Fuller:
 * Rock-A-Hula Baby (from the film Blue Hawaii, 1961)
 * I Got Lucky (from the film Kid Galahad, 1962)
 * Steppin' Out of Line (unused track from the Blue Hawaii sessions, first released on 1962 album Pot Luck)
 * You Can't Say No in Acapulco (from the film Fun in Acapulco, 1963)
 * Beyond the Bend (from the film It Happened at the World's Fair, 1963)
 * Barefoot Ballad (from the film Kissin' Cousins, 1964)
 * Big Love, Big Heartache (from the film Roustabout, 1964)
 * Do the Clam (from the film Girl Happy, 1965)
 * Spinout (from the film Spinout, 1966)
 * I'll Take Love (from the film Easy Come, Easy Go, 1967)
 * Have a Happy (from the film Change of Habit, 1969)
 * Cindy, Cindy (Love Letters from Elvis, 1971 studio album)

According to AllMusic, other songs co-written by her include "I'll Touch a Star" by Terry Stafford, "Lost Summer Love" by Shelley Fabares and "Someone to Tell It To" by Nat King Cole.

title: Dolores Fuller


text:
Talk:Down

Well-defined directions
re the only two well-defined directions." What does this mean?  _Are_ up and down well-defined - or are they just gravity-centric?  What about "away"?  North, etc. seems to be to be pretty well defined.

Dictionary definitions
This is a perfect example of an article that wishes it were a dictionary definition, ignoring the fact that among the things that Wikipedia is not is a dictionary. Now that we have disambiguating parentheses, we have no excuse! Somebody, please help! --Larry Sanger

Care for a dictionary: (or dict:) namespace? --Magnus Manske

Not only are some of these definitions not encyclopedic, rather belonging in a dictionary, but the definition of down as a direction is incorrect. The direction down cannot exist without a reference point. Gravity has nothing to do with it; it just so happens that on Earth we typically define it to be the direction of gravitational force exerted by the Earth on objects. Down can exist in outer space as long as it is defined relatively; for example, you could define it to be the direction in which your legs are pointing (i.e. relative to yourself). Rishodi 01:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Feathers?
what about Cocks? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.29.30.189 (talk) 00:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

What about down feathers? I'd say it's worthy of mentioning, perhaps even of its own article.

 * I definitely agree. English is not my native tongue and for example I learned that some sleeping-bags I was interested in are filled with "down", came do wikipedia to learn what is that (I never knew that "down" can be something else than direction opposite of up) and unfortunately this article doesn't mention the feathers. Can you please include it?

Non-feather down
Qiviut is the downy-undercoat of the musk ox; yak wool is the down of the yak, and cashmere is the downy-undercoat of the goat. What exactly does that mean? What's the difference between down hairs and other hairs on these beasts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.164.21.192 (talk) 19:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Down


text:
De jure

In law and government, de jure (, ; lit. 'by law') describes practices that are legally recognized, regardless of whether the practice exists in reality. In contrast, ('in fact') describes situations that exist in reality, even if not formally recognized.

Examples
Between 1805 and 1914, the ruling dynasty of Egypt were subject to the rulers of the Ottoman Empire, but acted as de facto independent rulers who maintained a polite fiction of Ottoman suzerainty. However, starting from around 1882, the rulers had only de jure rule over Egypt, as it had by then become a British puppet state. Thus, by Ottoman law, Egypt was de jure a province of the Ottoman Empire, but de facto was part of the British Empire.

In U.S. law, particularly after Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the difference between de facto segregation (segregation that existed because of the voluntary associations and neighborhoods) and de jure segregation (segregation that existed because of local laws that mandated the segregation) became important distinctions for court-mandated remedial purposes.

title: De jure


text:
Talk:Direct realism

Merge with naive realism article?
The merger was suggested by Srnec on 13th November 2008. It is clearly not a hot topic, however it is suggested that some kind of merger is required because it is thought that naive realism and direct realism are synonyms.

There is some overlap between the issues discussed in each article however the naive realism article is far more in-depth. For example, the Philosophy WikiProject has rated the direct realism article as Start-Class and the naive realism article as B-Class.

I would suggest that the sections from the direct realism article that are not already covered by the naive realism article should be integrated into the naive realism article and the direct realism article be redirected there. The reason for this is because the term naive realism is more commonly used than the term direct realism, especially in contemporary debates such as quantum mechanics. As a test of this here are some google results "naive realism" (57,400 results), "direct realism" (21,800 results), "naive realism" quantum (4,720 results), "direct realism" (1,750 results).

What do other's think? Anandavala (talk) 09:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that they should be merged FairfaxMoresby (talk) 04:17, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Direct realism and naive realism are not synonyms and should therefore not be merged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.149.99 (talk) 18:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

There aren't many links but www.tcnj.edu/~lemorvan/DR_web.pdf clearly states the differences between direct and naive realism, and so does my philosophy textbook. Some differences: DR is not committed to holding that what we perceive always accurately portrays the world. DR only maintains that there is no intermediary regarding perception (such as sense-data) DR is supported by philosophers; naive realism is assumed a base viewpoint and subsequently chewed up by representative realists, and the whole straw man fallacy of conflating the two seems like those dastardly RRs just want to deceive everyone. do the rght thnig sucka st —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.217.132 (talk) 13:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)  (moved here --Morton Shumway (talk) 14:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC))

They shouldn't be merged, regardless of their similarities (they are very different theories anyway) because other than the reasons stated prior to my input, it is difficult enough for non-philosophers to understand the difference between the concepts without the confusion added by a merge. While we're at it, why not make epistemology one page? Oh, because that would be stupid. Do not merge these very different stances.94.193.214.16 (talk) 03:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC) (moved here --Morton Shumway (talk) 14:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC))

Direct and naive realism are distinguished by particular researchers and should therefore not be merged. Naive realism can be argued to constitute a rather unscrutinised position, whereas direct realism has been posited as a full-fledged epistemological stance. Those who argue for direct realism more often than not explicitly differentiate it from naive realism. --Morton Shumway (talk) 13:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The labels 'direct realism' and 'naive realism' are terms of art. But they are often used by philosophers of perception to pick out very different views. For example, it is sometimes said that whereas direct realism is the thesis that perception of a mind-independent reality does not require any intermediary, naive realism is the thesis that perception of a mind-independent reality (or the phenomenal character of such perception) is constituted by that reality. One could hold the former thesis but reject the latter thesis. At any rate, I believe that it would be very unfortunate to collapse the distinction.

FWIW, I think the whole idea of merging "Naive Realism" with "Direct Realism" is wrongheaded. I take "naive realism" to mean something like "Any relatively unsophisticated epistemological view according to which items that seem to be external to ostensible perceivers really are external to such ostensible perceivers and generally have many of the properties they seem to have--although they have many more as well." Such a position is consistent not only with direct realism (which, incidentally, may be quite sophisticated), but also with a number of varieties of indirect realism. That is, although I don't want to deny that there is considerable overlap, direct realism need not be naive and naive realism need not be direct. Anyhow, very poor idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.114.13 (talk) 01:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

(random heading)
(inserted by ... said: Rursus (bork²) 20:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC))

The following statement's spelling and grammar are far below standard and need to be revised. :  —Preceding unsigned comment added by M^A^L (talk • contribs) 13:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC) This entry is Far bellow standard and needs to be revised. :

"This conclusion shows that direct realism simply defines perception as perception of external objects where an 'external object' is allowed to be a photon in the eye but not an impulse in a nerve leading from the eye." --- This does not follow at all from what has been said. Further, most direct realists will maintain that you do not perceive light when you perceive an object via light. This is very much like the common genetic fallacy. For one example of a direct realist (about observables) who maintains light itself is unobservable, read Bas C van Fraassen "Constructive Empiricism Now".

"This conclusion shows that direct realism simply defines perception as perception of external objects where an 'external object' is allowed to be a photon in the eye but not an impulse in a nerve leading from the eye." This is incorrect. For a direct realist, the "external object" is not the photon in the eye or the retinal image before it is translated to the optic nerve; It is the actual object causing a viewer's perception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.122.245.170 (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"At most Western universities, direct realism is taught as obviously false, a long-refuted theory in philosophy of perception. [citation needed]"

This is news to me! The first 5 decades of the 20th century were devoted to destroying the view that all we perceive, strictly speaking, are our own sense-data. Today there is a consensus extremely rare amongst philosophers: we are not aware of our own private sense-data; we can have non-inferential knowledge of material objects. Analytic philosophers are more or less agreed that it was a massive mistake to say otherwise. Locke lead to Berkeley who lead inexorably to Kant and then it was all down-hill to Hegel and the rest of the German philosophers whose names start with "H"! I strongly recommend emphasizing the opposite point:

``At most Western universities, INDIRECT realism is taught as obviously false, a long-refuted theory in philosophy of perception.'' Citations would include many of Austin's contemporaries, Stroud, McDowell, van Fraassen, Putnam (the more recent Putnam) and countless others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.26.206 (talk) 03:03, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

The direct realist approach

The person who wrote this piece has given a really good example of direct realist reasoning. In the philosophy of perception it was a POV rant but it is a shame to waste it.

(JlAustin is well known for arguing this) Who is JlAustin? I don't have a problem with whoever he is, but how should we link it? Does he have an existing article I can't find? -- Dreamyshade

J L Austin?

I would assume that the author intends to refer to the philosopher J. L. Austin, for whom there is an article. J. L. Austin --Robert Bruce 12:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The reference to Pierre le Morvan's 2004 paper is confused. le Morvan doesn't say anything about shared ontology or conclude that any neurophysiological results are problematic for direct realism.

Another problem is the use of "sense data," particularly in the first few paragraphs. Sense data are, literally, the direct data of the senses. Thus, without further explanation, a direct realist should not hold that there are no sense data, but that sense data are, generally, identical to physical objects (or parts/surfaces of physical objects). The author uses the term to mean something that simply cannot be physical objects or parts/surfaces of them. It would be better to use "ideas" or "mental images" to convey that meaning, I think. Alternatively, one could carefully explain one's particular use of 'sense-data' NOT to mean "direct data of the senses."

Walter Horn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.126.6 (talk) 16:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Proponents?
Does this "philosophy" have proponents, or is it just a constructed philosophy used to disprove certain kinds of errors? Like f.ex. solipsism that is constructed as a point of view, and later on labeled onto dead philosophers (the safest ones) in order to prove a partially dishonest point? ... said: Rursus (bork²) 20:49, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Many (if not most) contemporary philosophers of perception accept direct realism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.187.129 (talk) 14:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Another anonymous dirt bag (128.197.78.165) tried to make the same claim over on the talk page on Naive Realism, and even attempted to back their claim up with references to survey data. The only problem is they interpreted the real data completely backwards as I pointed out in reply on that talk page.  I've been working on the Consciousness Survey Project for several years now, going to conferences, interviewing experts, canonizing their views, and so on.  Despite my efforts, I have failed to find many proponents of this view, non that were willing to support them in the survey project.  Glen Sizemore at least participated in some discussion supporting this view, as  can be seen in the survey forum here.  But despite my best efforts encouraging him, and the few others I have found, non have been willing to put their neck on the line.  As ever more experts contribute to this survey it appears there is a real possibility that the experts are abandoning all other theories of consciousness as being falsified, including Naieve realism, and that a revolutionary scientific consensus could be forming around what the early participating experts (including Lehar, Smythies, Hameroff... ) have just decided to call Representational Qualia Theory.  The more people that contribute to this survey, the better we will be able to measure if, indeed, this revolution is taking place or not. Brent.Allsop (talk) 00:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Direct realism


text:
Talk:Duverger's law/Archive 1

The_Epopt - Note that this link will only display a page saying, "You do not have access to JSTOR from your current location" unless you already happen have the necessary special authorization needed. It is conceivable that this isn't the most useful link to include in a general-purpose encyclopedia.

RobLa - This is the best paper I know of on Duverger's law (I have a paper copy). Online resources on this subject are scant. Hopefully, someone will research this and come up with some original work to put here (perhaps I will one day).

title: Talk:Duverger's law/Archive 1