text:
Talk:Council of Constance

Untitled
Last paragrahp needs work, since it contains a) sentences which could suggest that Poland was part of Empire (and anyone here except for Mrs. user:H.J. agrees that it wasn't, right) b) it contains information which doesn't really belong to entry (it should be removed and put link instead).

In few days i will remove irrlevant information and correct incorrect infos: eg: regents of empire (!!!) (They never use that title!!!! and they were regents because of they authority as archibishops, not because anything else!)

Szopen -- I agree with you, and think it would be nice to see this article well-written and perhaps even mentioning why the council was called and its ecclesiatical repercussions. However, I think maybe you are too close to the subject to be objective. In 1414, Poland is generally considered to be part of the Empire (at least by westen historians. However, that does not mean that the relationship between Polish king and Emperor was what Fr. user:H.J. implies. It was much more like the relationship between the kings of France and England and the emperor.  Still, maybe it's a good time to leave things, unless you can back up your changes with sources we all can read (i.e., ones not in Polish -- sorry!).  That way, we can avoid yet another German-Polish edit war. ;-) JHK

I have only Polish books, since if i would buy any English ones, i would be in debts above my ears. I have no access to any English books or to German ones, but i believe that facts are the same no matter in what language they are stated (of course, with remembering of language subtleties like different meaning of words). Which means most sources other provide here i cannot read. Nor many other Poles unless they would will bought it for heavy money.

Well, my source here is Antoni Prochaska, first edition in 1898, reedited and published1996: (page 29 in second edition)
 * it happened July 13(1) on metting of the nation(2), which was presided by king Sigismund(3). ...king Sigismund... asked both sides if they recognize supremacy(4) of Roman state. While Teutons with many compliments expressed their will to follow verdict of Sigismund, Polish (5)...(envoy) ... expressed (in very polite form) sovereignity of (Polish) king and crown from Empire...

(1) i guess 1415, but Prochaska style is awafull so i am not sure (2) in Prochaska original: nacji, which in Polish could mean "nation" (second form of nacja: kogo czego nacji) or plural nations (nacje, again kogo czego nacji), and again from context it is hard to see what Prochaska had on thought (3) Roman Emperor, right. (4) Suzerenity, superiority, supremacy (zwierzchnia wladza) (5) i have no idea how rzecznik could be transalted into English. Speaker, spokesman, envoy, representative.

So, as i understand it, on the Council of Constantia Poles clearly stated that they do not consider themselves part of Empire and they consider themselves independent state. If i am right, and i believe i am, if they do not consider themselves part of EMpire, if they do not obey any order of Emperor, and they behave like not just merely independent but like sovereign state, then they were part of Empire in the same part as England or France. If it is generally believed that France and England were part of Empire, then, well, i withdraw, go under table and bark out what i wrote before. But this would mean that term Empire means merely all crhistian states of Empire which recognise moral authority of Emperor as a head of christianity. I respect rights of historians to have their opinion, but i believe that they can't imply any other meaning of belonging of Poland to Empire.

However, i am, yes, biased and non-objective here. That's why i don't consider myself able (in contrast to entries about Polish history) to write anything about that - especially that only monography i have i a book from 100 years ago (of course i have a lot about that Council in other books). I am however opposed to:

 * The primacy entitled them to rank as princes of the empire. From 1572 they held authority as regents of the empire during an interregnum.

because i don't know about using by them titles of princes of the empire, and they hold title of regentds of kingdom not empire, and not automatically because they were primaces, but because it was decided after many debates that they have biggest authority to be regents. That's why i want to erase these. Is also Concordate proper translation of nationes?

Note however that i do consider myself good enough to write about history of Poland, since i believe that many excellent books weren't ever translated into English, many findings and articles, and i feel that demanding only English books is like demanding of ignoring anything that any non-English writer wrote on the topic. I believe that Polish books are as reliable (and even better, sicne i have seen so many errors in books translated from English into Polish about our history) as English ones.

szopen

While I don't know much about the history of Poland, I have to agree with szopen in principle, that books written in Polish should be a valid source of Polish history, if not preferred since in many cases they may be primary source material. I know this is an English wikipedia, and I think the articles should be written in English, but I also think the project will be much poorer if sources in other languages are forbidden, especially where the other language is the "original" or is likely closer to the facts. --Wesley

 * I'm sorry -- did I just become incomprehensible overnight? I didn't say that the sources in Polish were invalid -- far from it.  However, since the only people I know of (besides Piotr the linguist) who read Polish are those deeply embroiled in the German-Polish edit wars, I think an objective review that includes those secondary sources is impossible.  For example, I absolutely trust szopen et al. on their veracity in citing Polish language sources -- but I don't know that those sources are not as lousy as the ones often cited by Fr. user:H.J.. If there are people out there who a) have some background in pre-modern history; b) read Polish; and 3) are unbiased, then they need to speak up.  As it is, there are a bunch of people who read German and, more importantly for this case, Latin.  There are also probably English translations of the decrees of the C of C.  Since those are the most important documents for figuring out this thing, there really is no need to cite secondary sources in Polish.  Does that make sense?  JHK

 * Well, is it English-language encyclopedia, or Encyclopedia for English people?
 * Anyway, i understand (my God!) that someone can think that i am biased :). I, however, can't think about any Polish source which would be more scientific than written by professional historians from best Polish universities (i am not speaking for Prochaska, since he is long time dead, but anyway, his work was republished by UJ). I think also, that any professional historian working on central-eastern medieval Europe has to at least heard about Strzelczyk, Labuda, Lowmianski and others i use as sources for my information (or Zakrzewicz or Grodecki for that matter although they are dead for quite a long time).
 * And yes, what JHK had written does make sense, although i don't feel comfortable with that. Anyway, ok, i won't change that article and i will wait for someone unbiased (but i believe that it would be hard to find such a person). szopen

In a moment of clarity, it occurred to me to go from complaining about a bad article mostly plagiarized from the Catholic Encyclopedia and think about Constance.

This was a MAJOR council. It was held to deal with a couple of major events -- the Avignon Papacy and the resulting Schism, and the threat of the heresies of Wyclif and Hus. It was also hugely important for the conciliarists and the development of ideas of ecclesiastical authority. None of these were initially mentioned in the first draft.

I would be surprised, but then, the person who plagiarized out of context also thought that Piccolomini's most important job was as an imperial secretary and provincial backwater bishop. JHK

 * I would happy to see good article about Council of Constance. This was first time when Polish delegates participate in matters so important to christendom, so anything i have here is totally biased and one can have impression that without Poles Council would not have any sense. I have a lot about Falkenberg controversies, matters with Hus, union with orthodoxy and other things in which Poles were crucial, and almost nothing about everything else (Except for few sentences like: "It was held to deal with a couple of major events -- the Avignon Papacy and the resulting Schism, and the threat of the heresies of Wyclif and Hus. It was also hugely important for the conciliarists and the development of ideas of ecclesiastical authority.") Eager to see more. szopen

antipope?
While I agree that Catholics have the right to call whoever they want "antipope" is it really fitting for an encyclopedia? To me (not a catholic) all three were Popes, and I to see "antipope" makes me feel like I'm reading a religious document. And as I recall, weren't all the Popes calling eachother the Antichrist? Perhaps we should call him Antichrist John XXIII. Citizen Premier 13:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * (I know this was from 2005, but still... I laughed at the ironic humor of this, but for no negative or sectarian reason, I hope.) Misty MH (talk) 19:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I too (and not long ago) read something on Wikipedia (I think) where it stated that some who were backing multiple popes were calling others "antichrist". I don't recall what that was that I read. Nor do I recall all the histories I've read of the various churches, or Roman Catholic, to know whether there was a different multiple-pope claim situation where that was done. The article on Antipope does NOT (at the moment) mention the word "antichrist". Neither do List of popes, Avignon Papacy, Western Schism, East–West Schism, or Pope, though the latter mentions Protestant claims about such. I also didn't find reference to this in Antichrist or References to the Antichrist in ecclesiastical writings. I also checked my computer Hard Disk Drives, and found nothing related. So now I don't know where I read it. Misty MH (talk) 19:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Okay, the second Pope John XXIII declared the first one to be an antipope in 1958. This has been considered definitive. Arglebargle79 (talk) 12:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

 * He did not "declare" anything definitive on the subject as far as I know, it's just his adoption of the number XXIII that renders the Pisan one an antipope by implication. His declaration of adopting the name itself apparently makes clear that intervening on this was not actually what he had in mind (cf.), but presumably he had to pick one number or another. —Al-Muqanna (talk) 11:55, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

POV and accuracy problems
There is a POV and accuracy problem with the repeated claims that early sessions of the Council are considered invalid. That they are invalid is only one point of view, a POV which was more popular a hundred years ago than it is today. That the Catholic Church teaches that they are invalid is just plain wrong, for there is no such Church teaching. The best one can say is that the old Catholic Encyclopedia claims that those sessions are invalid.

Any comments before I start editing? -- Cat Whisperer 01:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Do source this change you detect in Catholic teaching. Catholic teachings are not "popular" in the sense you seem to suggest: they are orthodox or they are not. The validity or not of the council's sessions in retrospect should not affect any of the facts as they took place. --Wetman 05:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are some references for this:
 * http://blogit.helsinki.fi/reuna/ThemeaningofHaecSanta.pdf
 * http://libro.uca.edu/pof/pof5.pdf (chapter 5 of http://libro.uca.edu/pof/pof.htm)
 * http://www.jstor.org/view/00096407/sp040209/04x3675i/0 (access to JSTOR required)

-- Cat Whisperer 04:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

 * What the expletive deleted gives Catholic teaching a privileged position? That is in and of itself a breach of NPOV. You must write based on authoritative academic positions, which may possibly include Catholic doctrine, not because it's Catholic doctrine, but because it's authoritative. Given the way this meme's been edited, I'd strongly suggest that anything not backed by a proper footnate is considered with some caution. That's half the point of what's wrong with this meme, it's been filtered by a notoriously non-NPOV body.
 * An example of this is the comment that the Council made no political decisions. The entire thing was a political structure, for heaven's sake, because the papacy at that time was under the control of the King of France, and had been for a century. The Schism was caused by a political decision, to ignore the Roman conclave and force Robert of Savoy onto the Church, so how could undoing the consequences not be political? The meme admits that Sigismund was in alliance with England against France, so implicitly the English invasion which culminated in the elimination of the vast bulk of the senior French nobility at Agincourt cannot be read independently of these negotiations. The removal of French authority meant the Council could reach a substantiable conclusion which the French would otherwise have blocked. So how can it not have been a political decision?
 * A further problem arises that as editors, you have shown yourselves unable to act neutrally, even when it's brought into question. Coming along with an academic knowledge of the Council, I would rate the quality of this article as poor. It's not worth correcting, so I'm referring this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.220.154.26 (talk) 16:18, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I've written a new section and made various other corrections which hopefully address the above to some extent, which is fair criticism if a bit strongly put. I've deleted the comment about political decisions. Actually the question in regards to Catholic doctrine is not as settled as the previous version of the article, drawing on sources from the turn of the 20th century, made it out to be either. Al-Muqanna (talk) 08:57, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The following is an accuracy problem which I will explain after the quote copied from the article: ″The Dominican theologian John of Falkenberg proved to be the fiercest opponent of the Poles. In his Liber de doctrina, Falkenberg argued that "the Emperor has the right to slay even peaceful infidels simply because they are pagans. ... The Poles deserve death for defending infidels, and should be exterminated even more than the infidels; they should be deprived of their sovereignty and reduced to slavery."[8] In Satira, he attacked Polish-Lithuanian King Jogaila, calling him a "mad dog" unworthy to be king. Falkenberg was condemned and imprisoned for such libel, but was not officially accused of heresy.[7]″ The footnote links to Eric Christianson's (or Christian's) book entitled The Northern Crusades. I haven't read the book so I can't comment on what the author wrote. The question of accuracy centers on the final clause of the passage, that is, "...but was not officially accused of heresy." Here's the problem: Having an opinion on something that hasn't been declared dogmatic by the Church cannot be heresy, and neither can insults. It doesn't matter how extremist Falkenberg's opinions were, they simply don't fall into the category of heresy. Neither does an insult directed to the personal character of an individual. To add the clause "...but was not officially accused of heresy" reflects ignorance, in all honesty. It misleads people into perpetuating the myth that everything about the Catholic Church in earlier times was the hunt for false teaching everywhere and burning people at the stake. Naturally, people who hold this POV will expect that all dealings with conflicts between individuals and states were at heart focused on finding heresy. But that just isn't the case, and as such, it comes across as a non sequitur to add a bit about not accusing someone of heresy. For that reason, I am removing the clause from the article. KiAnCaFleur (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Updated
Restored deleted information by anon and added references.--Molobo (talk) 13:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article needs a lot of cleanup, as it does not give the full background of Avignon and Pisa clearly, and is almost just a big hodgepodge of blue links. It is also almost unreadable, IMO. I'll have a go soon. Jubilee♫ clipman 02:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Size of the meeting
While the infobox gives the attendance at the Council as 600, it would seem that this is only the number of principal participants. Toby Lester's The Fourth Part of the World (London: Profile Books, 2009) says (p.167):
 * "Estimates of the size of the Council of Constance vary dramatically, but all sources agree that it was huge. Between 40,000 and 150,000 people are thought to have converged on the city for the event, which dragged on for more than three years. Some seven hundred high-ranking Church officials from all over Europe and Byzantium attended the council, among them one pope, three patriarchs, twenty-nine cardinals, and an extended assortment of important archbishops, bishops, and abbots. Accompanying them came a sprawling retinue of close to eighteen thousand personal assistants, secretaries, copyists, scholars, legal advisers, servants, and others. The archbishop of Mainz alone arrived with an escort of five hundred people. Almost every city and feudal state in Europe was represented at the council, either by its ruler or by a high-level delegation. Eighteen dukes and archdukes, eighty-three counts, seventy-one barons, and 1,500 knights turned up for the event, and they, too, brought thousands along with them. Europe's major universities and schools sent representatives, and poets, artisans, laborers, and merchants all poured into the city to serve the needs of the gathering – as did Florentine bankers' Cosimo de' Medici himself set up shop in Constance. The town had to absorb more than just people, or [sic] course. By one estimate, some thirty thousand horses had to be fed and stabled during the council."

Which does raise the question of how on earth the city managed to house and feed this multitude for several years. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could add a section on the physical Council, rather than just on its deliberations? -- Arwel Parry (talk) 13:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

 * That's amazing. And great question(s). :) Misty MH (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Misspelling and CAPS of "and"
The top second paragraph had the word "and" as "ANDDDDDD." It is now corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.80.166.60 (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Polish–Lithuanian–Teutonic conflict - Council's conclusions?
In the section "Polish–Lithuanian–Teutonic conflict", it shows that the Council of Constance was involved in discussing the conflict, but what the the Council's conclusions were seems vague to me. It says it didn't make any "political decisions" (which statement may be overstated), and says a "Cardinal... published an independent opinion that attempted to somewhat balance both Polish and Teutonic positions" but I don't see it saying more than this. If the Council was involved in discussing the "Polish–Lithuanian–Teutonic conflict", what were the Council's conclusions and statements about it? Someone who knows about this, please add that, because it almost seemed like a story that had no clear end to it, other than that the Polish and Teutonic continued to fight for another hundred years. Thanks! Misty MH (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

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Orphaned references in Council of Constance
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Council of Constance's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Pastor": From 1572 papal conclave: L. Pastor, p. 15 From Communion under both kinds:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 02:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Your first ref (From 1572 papal conclave: L. Pastor, p. 15) almost certainly refers to Ludwig von Pastor's History of the Popes in 40 volumes, perhaps Vol XX, 1572–1585, Gregory XIII - (or perhaps another work): Manuel U. Pastor in the 2nd ref seems to be a more recent commentator. Maybe I'll have a look soon and see what I can do. MinorProphet (talk) 15:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Frequens
The lede states: "...and Frequens was never put into practice." So what was Pope Martin V doing when he called the Council of Pavia-Siena and after some delay, the Council of Basel? And yes, the latter article is a disgrace. MinorProphet (talk) 02:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Council of Constance


text:
Talk:Cognate

Eastern languages
Are the writing of hanzi, kanji, hanja considered cogna.

Original research
''It has been calculated that if one takes a word from a language, there's a 40% ....experiment. Perhaps that number comes from some theoritical derivations, but how could a reader know?

If we cannot support the claim with actual factual or published research, I think that it's better to remove the fact, even if it sounds so interesting, attractive and beautiful as this one. -Germán 2004-02-16 09:42
 * In the following article, available at http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm the author (Mark Rosenfelder) states:
 * "We haven't worked the numbers. Even trained linguists, though they know that random matches will occur, generally can't say how many."
 * That after a long discussion on random resemblance.

 * I'd like to change the article to take out the number '40%' and replace it by something like 'high number/more than expected' and somehow summarize the Ronsenfelder's article in a new article and point to it. Would it be correct?

 * What do you think? -grh 12:02, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)
 * That phrase should be removed, if nothing else because it does not say what is meant by "roughly similar". The examples given -- "over" and "a'var" (do they mean the same thing?), "dog" and "dog" (ditto?) -- suggest that "similar" means "same consonants, similar vowels in similar places.  If that is the case, then the figure is obvious much, mcuh less than 40%. Even between, say, German and French.
 * The article stated "It has been calculated that if one takes a word from a language, there's a 40% chance that one will find a word with roughly similar sound and meaning in another random, non-related language."
 * hello. i also have come to talk to ask please write what does mean that words dog, avar. because people would not think they are cognates if they have meanings that are not connected. --Qdinar (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Many people have doubted this claim, and it has not been sourced. I've removed it. If anyone can find a source, please put it back in. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 14:22, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Origins, roots and etymologies
A word's etymology is more than its origin. It includes its history. Cognates are words in two languages that have origins in a shared ancestor. This makes their origin the same, although their etymologies will be very different. The word "etymology" is loosely used commonly for "origin" but I don't think we should encourage it. Furthermore, root, particularly as concerns Indo-European, has a specific meaning in linguistics. A root is a core morpheme, particularly in verbs (so that "denk-" is the root of the German verb "denken" and "think" the root of its cognate in English). In IE studies roots are indeed original "words" but they are taken to be the original morphemes, rather than inflected words as such. This is a useful enough distinction to be worth keeping IMO, so I have edited the page to reflect it.Dr Zen 04:01, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Also, two words derived from the same IE root are called cognates only if they belong to two different languages. Same-language cognates (such as English grave and grief, royal and regal) are more properly called doublets. Psp 04:55, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * What about words such as "thatch" and "deck", coming from the same root, but where the wrd "deck" is borrowd from Dutch?
 * To be honest, i as a layman am un-familliar with most of what is being discussed, but I have a piece of input. My input may be inappropriate to the current trend of thediscussion, but that is neither here nor there.

Merge
I like that while I was exploring words I was linked to a site that had derivation in its title. I immediately saw that there was discussion/a proposal to merge the article with another. I like where it is and would argue for it to stay where it is.

Again I am no Dr., nor an expert on words, just a burgeoning wiki-user who is interested. Sorry if this is in the wrong space, still learning. Any help (I figure I might have previewed first?) - PfandyA (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)PfandyA
 * I also oppose the merge to the infelicitous "genetic relationship (linguistic)" article. This term is much better known and more likely to be searched. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Milk
Afaik, "Milk" and "Leche" aren't cognates, but derive from two different IE words for milk. Also, russian Moloko might be a germanic borrowing.
 * Moloko come from a IE root, it is no more a "germanic borrowing" in russian than it's would be a "slavic borrowing" in german. As for the 'moloko' vowel change, see Old East Slavic language, protoSlavic Melko or Mleko -> Moloko.
 * You're absolutely right. I hadn't read that far. "Milk" is thought to come from a root meaning "wiping" or similar. "Milky Way" is a straight translation of the Latin "via lactea", not a parallel formation.Dr Zen 05:05, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * "Some philologists" trace a common IE root? Who? Can you give sources rather than weasel words? This is simply not true. They derive from very different roots.Dr Zen 08:14, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Also "galaktos" means "of the milk" in Greek, so one probably ought not to say that it "signifies" milk. I have re-edited the para in question. Please substantiate the part about the common IE origin before putting it back in.Dr Zen 08:19, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * This guy derives them from the same root but he doesn't describe how. How he gets "gala" from "mlagHt-" only he knows. It goes without saying that he'd need to show other words that have shown similar soundshifts (which I can't see that he does). Note this discussion, which clearly indicates that two unrelated IE nouns are involved.Dr Zen 08:33, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Preobrazhensky's Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language gives an overview of various theories, including the common derivation theory. I'm happy if mention of the common derivation theory is left out, but in the interests of helpfulness, it really ought to be mentioned somewhere what galaktos, lait and leche roughly mean for the benefit of the general reader. Man vyi 11:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's a particularly Slavic theory? If you really like the idea, perhaps it should be there. Maybe you could put "Preobrazhensky suggests that all of these words could ultimately be cognates" or something similar. I'll leave it to your judgement. I've put an explanation of the words' meaning. No problem at all if you want to word it differently.Dr Zen 12:38, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cotidianum
Latin cotidianum, French quotidien, Irish cotiantach??
 * Isn't the French word an evolution from Latin, anyway?

Some other false cognates from German are "Gift" which ironcially means poison, "Wiener" which means a person from Vienna or even "Hamburger" which can mean someone from Hamburg, Germany.

I removed these examples as they're not false cognates, but rather false friends. According to the German dictionary Der Sprach Brockhaus, "Gift" in Old High German meant what it does in English. "Hamburger" and "Wiener" are borrowings, and in German are simply adjectives which can denote anything from the respective cities (whether or not these are the true origins of the foods). --Damezi 14:20, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to explain the difference between false friends and false cognates. In short: if two words look or sound similar but have different meanings, they're false friends - but they can still be related. However, they're false cognates only if they have different origins - like English "have" and Latin "habere". --Damezi 00:53, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just a funny pair
These two are "false friends" through another language --

 * "Minne" (in Swedish) = memories
 * "Minne" (in Sicilian) = mammaries

Both are pronounced the same.

Neither cognates nor truly false friends, but somehow they seem related to me. Steve Rapaport 17:24, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Ok... =P Actually, the Swedish word is singular, "memories" would be "minnen". Nevertheless, it's still funny...

Certain mammaries can cause memories, especially Swedish ones...--Gohiking 18:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Or German "sechs" and English "sex", though the pronounceation of "sechs" can vary based on the accent. Sometimes it has a bit of a rough sound on the "ch". Always makes the Freshmen giggle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.239.162 (talk) 03:03, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Definition
Since English capture derives from the Latin word captura, captus by way of Old French, I do not consider that a cognate: cognates to me are words that independently derive from the same Proto-Indo-European root (in this case, PIE *kap, 'to grasp'): borrowed words don't count as cognates in my book. Alexander 007 10:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I have seen the words being used as a catch-all phrase for all kinds of words that are somehow related, either through PIE roots or borrowings. For instance, I found this example on Swedish language, "Finland-Swedish has a set of separate terms that are close cognates of their Finnish counterparts, chiefly terms of law and government." and I have trouble understanding completely what it should mean, since Finnish and Swedish are unrelated languages with most basic vocabulary being completely different (although Finnish has borrowed thousands of Words from Swedish or Scandinavian during the ages). I believe that these words referred probably either are calques or loanwords from Finnish. I will make a note on the discussion page.

 * We seem to be dealing with two separate usages. The article, however, is concerned with the technical definition, which should be as I described it. English night and Lithuanian naktis are cognates, independently derived from a Proto-Indo-European root. But English capture is not cognate to Latin captura, because capture is directly derived from Latin captura by way of Old French. And this is certain, of course, because initial PIE k became h in the Germanic languages and PIE p usually became f. So PIE *kap- could not have given rise to anything like captura in the Germanic languages, but it did in Latin. The other type of usage of the term cognate can be explained, of course, as long as they are not confused. Alexander 007 05:15, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The word cognate itself is a borrowing from Latin, and means "related". That can include a parent-child relationship as well as the relationship of cousins (unlike the German word normally used to translate cognate: urverwandt, where the ur- prefix stressses that the words are not just related, but are related in the distant past). But obviously it is cousins which are more interesting here: we have good terminology for loanwords and other forms of direct derivation, but this is the only term we have for the relationship of words in parallel branches, and there is a lot to be said for using linguistic terms in their narrowest senses where possible, for the sake of clearer differentiation. How about using "related forms" as the broad catch-all term and keeping "cognate" for the narrower meaning? --Doric Loon 00:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Question
Question: Why not put (things like) this in the general linguistics category too? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.99.239.173 (talk • contribs) 01:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC).

 * Answer: Category:Historical linguistics is a subcategory of Category:Linguistics, so that would be redundant. Wiki policy is to simplify the cats. Alexander 007 01:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Superscript help
Hey, how or where do u get the superscript characters to show aspiration? I can read them as superscript when reading the article but they appear as squares in the edit script. And if I try to copypaste them from the article, they are pasted as squares. YoungSpinoza 20:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Probably it will be the different font that is accountable for the squares shown. I do not know the code for superscript characters, below here I see and. What you could try, is setting another font to be used for monospace. Boudewijn (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Old English/Old Norse mutually intelligible?
Not pertaining to the subject of the article, but is it true that these two languages were mutually intelligible at the time of the Viking invasions of Britain? Considering the possible timeframe of the divergence of North and Western Germanic language groups around the beginning of the CE or earlier, this gives almost a thousand years for the OE and ON to diverge. Descendants of Latin and proto-Slavic have certainly become NOT mutually intelligible within a thousand years, but perhaps language change accelerated with the development of society?

Summary: words are borrowed from languages whether the borrower and the donor are mutually intelligible or not (cf. the example of words in English borrowed from French Norman.) I will investigate this further and if I don't find evidence on OE/ON mutual intelligibility, excise the parenthesized clause. Zapiens 17:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

New stuff
The new material I removed probably belongs in the article, but not in the lead where it was placed. It would go further below in the article. Alexander 007 19:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Embarazada
Contributors to this article may be interested to know that the article on Embarazada (the Spanish for "pregnant", a false friend cognate with "embarrassed") is currently up for deletion at Articles_for_deletion/Embarazada. Flapdragon 10:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

???
What is the difference between etymon [], cognate, Root (linguistics) ??? and should we say "cognate" [] or "cognate word" []. Sorry to insist, i saw there was already an explanation, but i was not totaly convinced.

 * If you think of it in terms of genealogy, etymons are like grandparents and cognates are like cousins.  They both embody historical relationships.  On the other hand, roots -- at least as the term is used in the linked article -- are synchronic rather than historical/diachronic; thus, "run" is (sort of) the root of "running," etc.  They embody only a relationship within the language at a specific point in time.  As far as I can tell, "cognate" can be either an adjective or a noun, so in most cases there is no need to say "cognate noun."  Perhaps the article should deal more extensively with these matters?  -- Visviva 15:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

about cognate
the latin word was cognatus but the word is composed by cum + natus the particle co is unexistent in ancient latin and the g on cognatus and the u becoming o are normal linguistic transformations when a word is composed by 2 or more words....can anyone control this and make the necessary corrections? i wouldnt do that because i don't read or study latin from 15 years ...... (the meaning of the word is "born togheter, born at the same time") thank you 151.80.3.184 22:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

 * See recent change. Note that "co-" is the equivalent of cum (originally quum) and is used in a prefix form.  BTW, I think you mean classical Latin, not ancient.  •Jim 62 sch•  20:47, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
The addition of this text

a cognate is when your coc gets stuck in the nate and that hurts.

entered on

16:13, 26 August 2007

is trash. I leave it to a more experienced Wikipedia editor to click (undo).

144.226.230.36 22:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Pipi
The English word pipi is the same as the english word pipisong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.48.120 (talk) 20:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Linking of acronym
In the section "Cognates across languages", first paragraph, last sentence, one can read the following:

 * "[...] all meaning "night" and derived from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) [...]"

I am question why both Proto-Indo-European and PIE are linked as they link to the same page. I suggest we change it so it looks like this instead:

 * [...] all meaning "night" and derived from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) [...]

Perhaps it's not even necessary to have the acronym as it is mentioned in the very beginning of the Proto-Indo-European language-article. /Tense (talk) 13:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't mix the languages
Croatian language does not use cyrilic script. If you write sth. in cyrilic script, you can not put croatian language next to it.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 13:52, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It is possible to include macedonian and some other languages in the same brackets. For instance, both macedonian and serbian language use cyrilic but they are listed separately and croatian that uses only latin script is put together with cyrilic! Any normal explanation????Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 13:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

On False Cogantes
Wouldn't the example of greek zues and latin deus be a good example fo false cognates Slovenski Volk (talk) 12:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Calvert Watkins asserts that the two do s hare a common origin in How to Kill a Dragon. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but when I can, I'll put a citation of that fact.Lheureum (talk) 13:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

king not a cognate of koning and könig?
Why not? Does it not descend from Old English cyning and from Proto-Germanic *kuningaz? CodeCat (talk) 15:07, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Move this page to Talk:Cognate (move over redirect)
The main article is located at Cognate, not at Cognate (etymology). Therefore this talk page should be Talk:Cognate. Please move this page over the redirect at Talk:Cognate.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  19:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. Yes, I'm aware that there's likely a more specific template for this. No, I've got no idea what it is, and considering that this will work, I'm not going to go looking for it. Yes, if you leave me a message telling me what the proper template is, I'd be quite appreciative. Thanks.  S ven M anguard   Wha?  19:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. This sort of move can be requested with db-move which is put on the target page in the form  . JohnCD (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I am quite appreciative.  S ven M anguard   Wha?  20:38, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

lede needs work
After the definition, most of the lede section is an example of doublets. This should be replaced with one or two simple examples of cognates:
 * Eng word a and Gk word α are cognates, both deriving from PIE word ____

--Thnidu (talk) 21:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I'm removing the troublesome paragraph
 * For example, the English words shirt and skirt are doublets; the former derives from the Old English sċyrte, while the latter is borrowed from Old Norse skyrta, both of which derive from the Proto-Germanic *skurtijǭ. Additional cognates of the same word in other Germanic languages include the German Schürze and Dutch schort (which both mean "apron").
 * And I've made several changes to differentiate the strict sense used in linguistic research (especially comparative linguistics) from the looser and more inclusive definitions found in related fields. --Thnidu (talk) 16:23, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Discus
"a mistake to identify their later meanings" - can we be clearer about what is meant here? JMK (talk) 10:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

sinemá

 * In fact, σινεμά stands beside a Greek neologism based on the original form of the same root: κινηματογράφος (kinimatoγráfos), with the same two meanings as cinéma/σινεμά.

Does this sentence really mean to say that kinematográfos is a synonym of sinemá, meaning both 'movies (collectively)' and 'a theater'? Or that it bears the same relation to both senses of sinemá?

And while I'm up, how wrong would it be to transcribe the gamma as g for the naïve reader's convenience? —Tamfang (talk) 21:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

False cognates
This is in response to 's deletion of the pair Spanish mucho : English much, with the edit comment
 * False cognates: Bilingual speaker of Spanish and English here. Much and mucho have quite different meaning.

They're close enough to mislead a lot of English speakers (including me, a trained linguist, until I saw this article and looked up both etymologies). That's all it takes. "False cognates are words that people commonly believe are related (have a common origin), but that linguistic examination reveals are unrelated." Besides...

The following examples are from mucho at WordReference.com. I've trimmed it down to examples including the exact English word much, deleting most of those that use the synonymous colloquial lots (of) or a lot (of) but keeping a few where those expressions can be straightforwardly replaced with "much"; these I've noted in curly braces { }. See also the tab on the same page for the Collins dictionary.

Mucho

Principal Translations

 * mucho adv	(gustar: encantar)
 * very much adv

Compound Forms

 * aún hay mucho por hacer expr	(gran tarea por delante)
 * there's still much to do v expr

 * con mucho sacrificio loc prep	 (a costa de)
 * with much sacrifice expr

 * Les da mucho gusto ver a su hijo con la carrera terminada
 * They feel very pleased by seeing their son finish his studies. {lit., It gives them much pleasure}

 * dar mucho juego loc verb	enfático (despertar comentarios)
 * generate a lot of comment v expr
 * cause a lot of debate, be the subject of a lot of debate v expr {= much debate}

 * dar mucho que hablar loc verb	enfático (atraer atención pública)
 * be the source of much talk

 * dejar mucho que desear expr	(insatisfactorio)
 * leave much to be desired v expr

 * haber mucho por hacer loc verb	(cosas por zanjar)
 * (formal)	there be much to do v expr

 * lo dudo mucho
 * I doubt it very much, I very much doubt v expr

 * lo mucho que
 * as much as expr

 * mucho más loc adj	(cuantificador superlativo)
 * much more adj

 * Juan no se jode mucho porque trabaja un día al año.
 * no mucho loc adv	(poco)
 * not much adv

 * no mucho expr	anglicismo (nada en particular)
 * not much, not a lot expr
 * Note: Usada en respuesta a la pregunta '¿Cómo estás?'.

 * Por mucho que tenga buena voluntad, la otra parte no está dispuesta a ceder.
 * por mucho que, por mucho que se haga algo
 * por más que se haga algo loc conj	(enfatiza una negativa)
 * no matter how much expr
 * Note: Se construye con subjuntivo.

 * si no es mucho pedir expr	(si no te importa)
 * if it isn't too much to ask expr

 * tener mucho que aprender loc verb	(ignorar)
 * have much to learn v expr

 * y mucho menos a conj + loc adj + p	(cuantificador superlativo)
 * much less to expr

--Thnidu (talk) 18:23, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Request: Add link to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_German_cognates_with_English in the "see also" section
Please add a link to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_German_cognates_with_English in the see also section, as this is really a helpful resource. --80.187.104.73 (talk) 22:36, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymons
This article refers to etymons (in the illustration). I think "etymon" needs its own Wikipedia page. It's an important concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.187.105.82 (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Rewrite required
Obh,obh! I'm afraid this is an example of an article that has suffered badly by people messing around inadvisedly without taking account of the overall picture. Etymology is one of those areas where every layman has their favourite example and wants to squeeze it in whether it really helps the article or not. They wouldn't do it with an article on physics! As a result, this article is now confused and hard to read, and frankly, it was far better when I worked on it 15 years ago. It needs a complete rewrite, with a ruthless approach to examples - first you have to decide what points you want to illustrate, and shape them into an argument, and then give one or possibly two examples of each phenonenon, and delete all other examples. After all, there are hundreds of thousands of examples out there, and there is no merit whatsoever in cluttering the page with additional examples just because you personally like them. There are also several more basic issues. First, linguists really don't use the term "cognate" to refer to loans. Ideally it refers to two words in related languages that have descended in direct continuity the from a parent word in the parent language: Latin canis evolved organically into Italian cane and separately evolved into French chien, so cane and chien are cognate. You could expand it to include hybrid forms of relationships, like shirt and skirt, where borrowing brought two words that were already cognates into the same language as a doublet, but I really wouldn't want to say that French chien and English canine are cognates. They are related forms. Then we need to get rid of the whole false friend issue. False friends are a concept from second language learning, and two words are only false friends if there is a genuine risk of language learners confusing them. Some false frineds do result from cognates diverging in meaning, but at the very most you want to say that in a single sentence and then reference our false friends article or anyone who wants to know more. I might be willing to attempt such a re-write, but only if we have consensus here first, because I'm not going to do all that work just to be reverted. So, I'd like to know who is actually working here, and how they feel about it.--Doric Loon (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The first thing that's needed is to document the exact definition and its variants. I am pretty sure that cognates do not include loanwords, and it should be possible to cite multiple reliable sources attesting to this.
 * After we have a clear definition, the rest of the article should use that definition. Loanwords should explicitly be distinguished.
 * I suspect that the current definition is based on a misunderstanding of David Crystal's usage. He defines cognates as "historically derived from the same source". The critical word of course is "derived". Crystal says in a different passage that "in historical linguistics... words... are said to be derived from corresponding in an earlier state of the language". That surely excludes borrowings and also reborrowings (like modern Greek σινεμά < French cinéma << ancient Greek κίνημα). --Macrakis (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have taken a first pass. Surely needs improvement. --Macrakis (talk) 17:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Cognate


text:
Charles Mingus

Charles Mingus Jr. (April 22, 1922 – January 5, 1979) was an American jazz upright bassist, composer, bandleader, pianist, and author. A major proponent of collective improvisation, he is considered to be one of the greatest jazz musicians and composers in history, with a career spanning three decades and collaborations with other jazz greats such as Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Max Roach, and Eric Dolphy. Mingus's work ranged from advanced bebop and avant-garde jazz with small and midsize ensembles, to pioneering the post-bop style on seminal recordings like Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) and Mingus Ah Um (1959), and progressive big band experiments such as The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (1963).

Mingus's compositions continue to be played by contemporary musicians ranging from the repertory bands Mingus Big Band, Mingus Dynasty, and Mingus Orchestra, to the high school students who play the charts and compete in the Charles Mingus High School Competition. In 1993, the Library of Congress acquired Mingus's collected papers—including scores, sound recordings, correspondence and photos—in what they described as "the most important acquisition of a manuscript collection relating to jazz in the Library's history".

Early life and career
Charles Mingus was born in Nogales, Arizona. His father, Charles Mingus Sr., was a sergeant in the U.S. Army. Mingus Jr. was largely raised in the Watts area of Los Angeles.

Mingus's ethnic background was complex. His ancestry included German American, African American, and Native American heritage. His maternal grandfather was a Chinese British subject from Hong Kong, and his maternal grandmother was an African American from the southern United States. Mingus was the great-great-great-grandson of his family's founding patriarch who, by most accounts, was a German immigrant. In Mingus's autobiography Beneath the Underdog, his mother was described as "the daughter of an English/Chinese man and a South-American woman", and his father was the son "of a black farm worker and a Swedish woman". Charles Mingus Sr. claims to have been raised by his mother and her husband as a white person until he was fourteen, when his mother revealed to her family that the child's true father was a black slave, after which he had to run away from his family and live on his own. The autobiography does not confirm whether Charles Mingus Sr. or Mingus himself believed this story was true, or whether it was merely an embellished version of the Mingus family's lineage. According to new information used to educate visitors to Mingus Mill in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, included in signs unveiled May 23, 2023, the father of Mingus Sr. was former slave Daniel Mingus, owned by the family of his mother Clarinda Mingus, a white woman. When Clarinda married a white man, Mingus Sr. was left with his white grandfather and great-grandparents. His father, who later changed his name to West, apparently did not have a relationship with Mingus Sr.

His mother allowed only church-related music in their home, but Mingus developed an early love for other music, especially that of Duke Ellington. He studied trombone, and later cello, although he was unable to follow the cello professionally because, at the time, it was nearly impossible for a black musician to make a career of classical music, and the cello was not accepted as a jazz instrument. Despite this, Mingus was still attached to the cello; as he studied bass with Red Callender in the late 1930s, Callender even commented that the cello was still Mingus's main instrument. In Beneath the Underdog, Mingus states that he did not actually start learning bass until Buddy Collette accepted him into his swing band under the stipulation that he be the band's bass player.

Due to a poor education, the young Mingus could not read musical notation quickly enough to join the local youth orchestra. This had a serious impact on his early musical experiences, leaving him feeling ostracized from the classical music world. These early experiences, in addition to his lifelong confrontations with racism, were reflected in his music, which often focused on themes of racism, discrimination and (in)justice.

Much of the cello technique he learned was applicable to double bass when he took up the instrument in high school. He studied for five years with Herman Reinshagen, principal bassist of the New York Philharmonic, and compositional techniques with Lloyd Reese. Throughout much of his career, he played a bass made in 1927 by the German maker Ernst Heinrich Roth.

Beginning in his teen years, Mingus was writing quite advanced pieces; many are similar to Third Stream because they incorporate elements of classical music. A number of them were recorded in 1960 with conductor Gunther Schuller, and released as Pre-Bird, referring to Charlie "Bird" Parker; Mingus was one of many musicians whose perspectives on music were altered by Parker into "pre- and post-Bird" eras.

Mingus gained a reputation as a bass prodigy. His first major professional job was playing with former Ellington clarinetist Barney Bigard. He toured with Louis Armstrong in 1943, and by early 1945 was recording in Los Angeles in a band led by Russell Jacquet, which also included Teddy Edwards, Maurice James Simon, Wild Bill Davis, and Chico Hamilton, and in May that year, in Hollywood, again with Edwards, in a band led by Howard McGhee.

He then played with Lionel Hampton's band in the late 1940s; Hampton performed and recorded several Mingus pieces. A popular trio of Mingus, Red Norvo, and Tal Farlow in 1950 and 1951 received considerable acclaim, but Mingus's race caused problems with some club owners and he left the group. Mingus was briefly a member of Ellington's band in 1953, as a substitute for bassist Wendell Marshall; however, Mingus's notorious temper led to his being one of the few musicians personally fired by Ellington (Bubber Miley and drummer Bobby Durham are among the others) after a backstage fight between Mingus and Juan Tizol.

Also in the early 1950s, before attaining commercial recognition as a bandleader, Mingus played gigs with Charlie Parker, whose compositions and improvisations greatly inspired and influenced him. Mingus considered Parker the greatest genius and innovator in jazz history, but he had a love-hate relationship with Parker's legacy. Mingus blamed the Parker mythology for a derivative crop of pretenders to Parker's throne. He was also conflicted and sometimes disgusted by Parker's self-destructive habits and the romanticized lure of drug addiction they offered to other jazz musicians. In response to the many sax players who imitated Parker, Mingus titled a song "If Charlie Parker Were a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats" (released on Mingus Dynasty as "Gunslinging Bird").

Mingus married four times. His wives were Jeanne Gross, Lucille (Celia) Germanis, Judy Starkey, and Susan Graham Ungaro.

Based in New York
In 1952, Mingus co-founded Debut Records with Max Roach so he could conduct his recording career as he saw fit. The name originated from his desire to document unrecorded young musicians. Despite this, the best-known recording the company issued was of the most prominent figures in bebop. On May 15, 1953, Mingus joined Dizzy Gillespie, Parker, Bud Powell, and Roach for a concert at Massey Hall in Toronto, which is the last recorded documentation of Gillespie and Parker playing together. After the event, Mingus chose to overdub his barely audible bass part back in New York; the original version was issued later. The two 10" albums of the Massey Hall concert (one featured the trio of Powell, Mingus and Roach) were among Debut Records' earliest releases. Mingus may have objected to the way the major record companies treated musicians, but Gillespie once commented that he did not receive any royalties "for years and years" for his Massey Hall appearance. The records, however, are often regarded as among the finest live jazz recordings.

One story has it that Mingus was involved in a notorious incident while playing a 1955 club date billed as a "reunion" with Parker, Powell, and Roach. Powell, who suffered from alcoholism and mental illness (possibly exacerbated by a severe police beating and electroshock treatments), had to be helped from the stage, unable to play or speak coherently. As Powell's incapacitation became apparent, Parker stood in one spot at a microphone, chanting "Bud Powell ... Bud Powell ..." as if beseeching Powell's return. Allegedly, Parker continued this incantation for several minutes after Powell's departure, to his own amusement and Mingus's exasperation. Mingus took another microphone and announced to the crowd, "Ladies and Gentlemen, please don't associate me with any of this. This is not jazz. These are sick people." This was Parker's last public performance; about a week later he died after years of substance abuse.

Mingus often worked with a mid-sized ensemble (around 8–10 members) of rotating musicians known as the Jazz Workshop. Mingus broke new ground, constantly demanding that his musicians be able to explore and develop their perceptions on the spot. Those who joined the Workshop (or Sweatshops as they were colorfully dubbed by the musicians) included Pepper Adams, Jaki Byard, Booker Ervin, John Handy, Jimmy Knepper, Charles McPherson, and Horace Parlan. Mingus shaped these musicians into a cohesive improvisational machine that in many ways anticipated free jazz. Some musicians dubbed the workshop a "university" for jazz.

Pithecanthropus Erectus and other recordings
The 1950s are generally regarded as Mingus's most productive and fertile period. Over a ten-year period, he made 30 records for a number of labels (Atlantic, Candid, Columbia, Impulse and others). Mingus had already recorded around ten albums as a bandleader, but 1956 was a breakthrough year for him, with the release of Pithecanthropus Erectus, arguably his first major work as both a bandleader and composer. Like Ellington, Mingus wrote songs with specific musicians in mind, and his band for Erectus included adventurous musicians: piano player Mal Waldron, alto saxophonist Jackie McLean and the Sonny Rollins-influenced tenor of J. R. Monterose. The title song is a ten-minute tone poem, depicting the rise of man from his hominid roots (Pithecanthropus erectus) to an eventual downfall. A section of the piece was free improvisation, free of structure or theme.

Another album from this period, The Clown (1957, also on Atlantic Records), the title track of which features narration by humorist Jean Shepherd, was the first to feature drummer Dannie Richmond, who remained his preferred drummer until Mingus's death in 1979. The two men formed one of the most impressive and versatile rhythm sections in jazz. Both were accomplished performers seeking to stretch the boundaries of their music while staying true to its roots. When joined by pianist Jaki Byard, they were dubbed "The Almighty Three".

Mingus Ah Um and other works
In 1959, Mingus and his jazz workshop musicians recorded one of his best-known albums, Mingus Ah Um. Even in a year of standout masterpieces, including Dave Brubeck's Time Out, Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, John Coltrane's Giant Steps, and Ornette Coleman's The Shape of Jazz to Come, this was a major achievement, featuring such classic Mingus compositions as "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" (an elegy to Lester Young) and the vocal-less version of "Fables of Faubus" (a protest against segregationist Arkansas governor Orval Faubus that features double-time sections). In 2003 the album's legacy was cemented when it was inducted into the National Recording Registry. Also during 1959, Mingus recorded the album Blues & Roots, which was released the following year. Mingus said in his liner notes: "I was born swinging and clapped my hands in church as a little boy, but I've grown up and I like to do things other than just swing. But blues can do more than just swing."

Mingus witnessed Ornette Coleman's legendary—and controversial—1960 appearances at New York City's Five Spot jazz club. He initially expressed rather mixed feelings for Coleman's innovative music: "... if the free-form guys could play the same tune twice, then I would say they were playing something ... Most of the time they use their fingers on the saxophone and they don't even know what's going to come out. They're experimenting." That same year, however, Mingus formed a quartet with Richmond, trumpeter Ted Curson and multi-instrumentalist Eric Dolphy. This ensemble featured the same instruments as Coleman's quartet, and is often regarded as Mingus rising to the challenging new standard established by Coleman. The quartet recorded on both Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus and Mingus. The former also features the version of "Fables of Faubus" with lyrics, aptly titled "Original Faubus Fables".

In 1961, Mingus spent time staying at the house of his mother's sister (Louise) and her husband, Fess Williams, a clarinetist and saxophonist, in Jamaica, Queens. Subsequently, Mingus invited Williams to play at the 1962 Town Hall Concert.

Only one misstep occurred in this era: The Town Hall Concert in October 1962, a "live workshop"/recording session. With an ambitious program, the event was plagued with troubles from its inception. Mingus's vision, now known as Epitaph, was finally realized by conductor Gunther Schuller in a concert in 1989, a decade after Mingus died.

Outside of music, Mingus published a mail-order how-to guide in 1954 called The Charles Mingus CAT-alog for Toilet Training Your Cat. The guide explained in detail how to get a cat to use a human toilet. Sixty years later, in 2014, the late American character actor Reg E. Cathey performed a voice recording of the complete guide for Studio 360.

The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and other Impulse! albums
In 1963, Mingus released The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, described as "one of the greatest achievements in orchestration by any composer in jazz history." The album was also unique in that Mingus asked his psychotherapist, Dr. Edmund Pollock, to provide notes for the record.

Mingus also released Mingus Plays Piano, an unaccompanied album featuring some fully improvised pieces, in 1963.

In addition, 1963 saw the release of Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus, an album praised by critic Nat Hentoff.

In 1964, Mingus put together one of his best-known groups, a sextet including Dannie Richmond, Jaki Byard, Eric Dolphy, trumpeter Johnny Coles, and tenor saxophonist Clifford Jordan. The group was recorded frequently during its short existence. Mosaic Records has released a 7-CD set, Charles Mingus – The Jazz Workshop Concerts 1964–65, featuring concerts from Town Hall, Amsterdam, Monterey ’64, Monterey ’65, & Minneapolis). Coles fell ill and left during a European tour. Dolphy stayed in Europe after the tour ended, and died suddenly in Berlin on June 28, 1964. 1964 was also the year that Mingus met his future wife, Sue Graham Ungaro. The couple were married in 1966 by Allen Ginsberg. Facing financial hardship, Mingus was evicted from his New York home in 1966.

Changes
Mingus's pace slowed somewhat in the late 1960s and early 1970s. In 1974, after his 1970 sextet with Charles McPherson, Eddie Preston and Bobby Jones disbanded, he formed a quintet with Richmond, pianist Don Pullen, trumpeter Jack Walrath and saxophonist George Adams. They recorded two well-received albums, Changes One and Changes Two. Mingus also played with Charles McPherson in many of his groups during this time. Cumbia and Jazz Fusion in 1976 sought to blend Colombian music (the "Cumbia" of the title) with more traditional jazz forms. In 1971, Mingus taught for a semester at the University at Buffalo, The State University of New York as the Slee Professor of Music.

Later career and death
By the mid-1970s, Mingus was feeling the effects of motor neuron disease. His once formidable bass technique declined until he could no longer play the instrument. He continued composing, however, and supervised a number of recordings before his death. At the time of his death, he was working with Joni Mitchell on an album eventually titled Mingus, which included lyrics added by Mitchell to his compositions, including "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat". The album featured the talents of Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, and another influential bassist and composer, Jaco Pastorius.

Mingus died on January 5, 1979, aged 56, in Cuernavaca, Mexico, where he had traveled for treatment and convalescence. His ashes were scattered in the Ganges River.

Musical style
His compositions retained the hot and soulful feel of hard bop, drawing heavily from black gospel music and blues, while sometimes containing elements of third stream, free jazz, and classical music. He once cited Duke Ellington and church as his main influences.

Mingus espoused collective improvisation, similar to the old New Orleans jazz parades, paying particular attention to how each band member interacted with the group as a whole. In creating his bands, he looked not only at the skills of the available musicians, but also their personalities. Many musicians passed through his bands and later went on to impressive careers. He recruited talented and sometimes little-known artists, whom he utilized to assemble unconventional instrumental configurations. As a performer, Mingus was a pioneer in double bass technique, widely recognized as one of the instrument's most proficient players.

Because of his brilliant writing for midsize ensembles, and his catering to and emphasizing the strengths of the musicians in his groups, Mingus is often considered the heir of Duke Ellington, for whom he expressed great admiration and collaborated on the record Money Jungle. Dizzy Gillespie had once said Mingus reminded him "of a young Duke", citing their shared "organizational genius".

Personality and temper
Nearly as well known as his ambitious music was Mingus's often fearsome temperament, which earned him the nickname "the Angry Man of Jazz". His refusal to compromise his musical integrity led to many onstage eruptions, exhortations to musicians, and dismissals. Although respected for his musical talents, Mingus was sometimes feared for his occasionally violent onstage temper, which was at times directed at members of his band and other times aimed at the audience. He was physically large, prone to obesity (especially in his later years), and was often intimidating and frightening when expressing anger or displeasure. When confronted with a nightclub audience talking and clinking ice in their glasses while he performed, Mingus stopped his band and loudly chastised the audience, stating: "Isaac Stern doesn't have to put up with this shit." Mingus destroyed a $20,000 bass in response to audience heckling at the Five Spot in New York City.

Guitarist and singer Jackie Paris was a witness to Mingus's irascibility. Paris recalls his time in the Jazz Workshop: "He chased everybody off the stand except [drummer] Paul Motian and me ... The three of us just wailed on the blues for about an hour and a half before he called the other cats back."

On October 12, 1962, Mingus punched Jimmy Knepper in the mouth while the two men were working together at Mingus's apartment on a score for his upcoming concert at the Town Hall in New York, and Knepper refused to take on more work. Mingus's blow broke off a crowned tooth and its underlying stub. According to Knepper, this ruined his embouchure and resulted in the permanent loss of the top octave of his range on the trombone – a significant handicap for any professional trombonist. This attack temporarily ended their working relationship, and Knepper was unable to perform at the concert. Charged with assault, Mingus appeared in court in January 1963 and was given a suspended sentence. Knepper did again work with Mingus in 1977 and played extensively with the Mingus Dynasty, formed after Mingus's death in 1979.

In addition to bouts of ill temper, Mingus was prone to clinical depression and tended to have brief periods of extreme creative activity intermixed with fairly long stretches of greatly decreased output, such as the five-year period following the death of Eric Dolphy.

In 1966, Mingus was evicted from his apartment at 5 Great Jones Street in New York City for nonpayment of rent, captured in the 1968 documentary film Mingus: Charlie Mingus 1968, directed by Thomas Reichman. The film also features Mingus performing in clubs and in the apartment, firing a .410 shotgun indoors, composing at the piano, playing with and taking care of his young daughter Caroline, and discussing love, art, politics, and the music school he had hoped to create.

The Mingus Big Band
Charles Mingus's music is currently being performed and reinterpreted by the Mingus Big Band, which in October 2008 began playing every Monday at Jazz Standard in New York City, and often tours the rest of the U.S. and Europe. The Mingus Big Band, the Mingus Orchestra, and the Mingus Dynasty band are managed by Jazz Workshop, Inc. and run by Mingus's widow, Sue Graham Mingus.

Elvis Costello has written lyrics for a few Mingus pieces. He had once sung lyrics for one piece, "Invisible Lady", backed by the Mingus Big Band on the album, Tonight at Noon: Three of Four Shades of Love.

Epitaph
Epitaph is considered one of Charles Mingus's masterpieces. The composition is 4,235 measures long, requires two hours to perform, and is one of the longest jazz pieces ever written. Epitaph was only completely discovered, by musicologist Andrew Homzy, during the cataloging process after Mingus's death. With the help of a grant from the Ford Foundation, the score and instrumental parts were copied, and the piece itself was premiered by a 30-piece orchestra, conducted by Gunther Schuller. This concert was produced by Mingus's widow, Sue Graham Mingus, at Alice Tully Hall on June 3, 1989, 10 years after Mingus's death. It was performed again at several concerts in 2007. The performance at Walt Disney Concert Hall is available on NPR. Hal Leonard published the complete score in 2008.

Autobiography
Mingus wrote the sprawling, exaggerated, quasi-autobiography, Beneath the Underdog: His World as Composed by Mingus, throughout the 1960s, and it was published in 1971. Its "stream of consciousness" style covered several aspects of his life that had previously been off-record. In addition to his musical and intellectual proliferation, Mingus goes into great detail about his perhaps overstated sexual exploits. He claims to have had more than 31 affairs in the course of his life (including 26 prostitutes in one sitting). This does not include any of his five wives (he claims to have been married to two of them simultaneously). In addition, he asserts that he held a brief career as a pimp. This has never been confirmed.

Mingus's autobiography also serves as an insight into his psyche, as well as his attitudes about race and society. It includes accounts of abuse at the hands of his father from an early age, being bullied as a child, his removal from a white musician's union, and grappling with disapproval while married to white women and other examples of hardship and prejudice.

Scholarly influence
The work of Charles Mingus has also received attention in academia. According to Ashon Crawley, the musicianship of Charles Mingus provides a salient example of the power of music to unsettle the dualistic, categorical distinction of sacred from profane through otherwise epistemologies. Crawley offers a reading of Mingus that examines the deep imbrication uniting Holiness – Pentecostal aesthetic practices and jazz. Mingus recognized the importance and impact of the midweek gathering of black folks at the Holiness – Pentecostal Church at 79th and Watts in Los Angeles that he would attend with his stepmother or his friend Britt Woodman. Crawley goes on to argue that these visits were the impetus for the song "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting". Emphasis is placed on the ethical demand of the prayer meeting felt and experienced that, according to Crawley, Mingus attempts to capture. In many ways, "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting" was Mingus's homage to black sociality. By exploring Mingus's homage to black Pentecostal aesthetics, Crawley expounds on how Mingus figured out that those Holiness – Pentecostal gatherings were the constant repetition of the ongoing, deep, intense mode of study, a kind of study wherein the aesthetic forms created could not be severed from the intellectual practice because they were one and also, but not, the same."

Gunther Schuller has suggested that Mingus should be ranked among the most important American composers, jazz or otherwise. In 1988, a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts made possible the cataloging of Mingus compositions, which were then donated to the Music Division of the New York Public Library for public use. In 1993, The Library of Congress acquired Mingus's collected papers—including scores, sound recordings, correspondence and photos—in what they described as "the most important acquisition of a manuscript collection relating to jazz in the Library's history".

Cover versions
Considering the number of compositions that Charles Mingus wrote, his works have not been recorded as often as comparable jazz composers. The only Mingus tribute albums recorded during his lifetime were baritone saxophonist Pepper Adams's album, Pepper Adams Plays the Compositions of Charlie Mingus, in 1963, and Joni Mitchell's album Mingus, in 1979. Of all his works, his elegy for Lester Young, "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" (from Mingus Ah Um) has probably had the most recordings. The song has been covered by both jazz and non-jazz artists, such as Jeff Beck, Andy Summers, Eugene Chadbourne, and Bert Jansch and John Renbourn with and without Pentangle. Joni Mitchell sang a version with lyrics that she wrote for it.

Elvis Costello has recorded "Hora Decubitus" (from Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus) on My Flame Burns Blue (2006). "Better Git It in Your Soul" was covered by Davey Graham on his album "Folk, Blues, and Beyond". Trumpeter Ron Miles performs a version of "Pithecanthropus Erectus" on his CD "Witness". New York Ska Jazz Ensemble has done a cover of Mingus's "Haitian Fight Song", as have the British folk rock group Pentangle and others. Hal Willner's 1992 tribute album Weird Nightmare: Meditations on Mingus (Columbia Records) contains idiosyncratic renditions of Mingus's works involving numerous popular musicians including Chuck D, Keith Richards, Henry Rollins and Dr. John. The Italian band Quintorigo recorded an entire album devoted to Mingus's music, titled Play Mingus.

Gunther Schuller's edition of Mingus's "Epitaph", which premiered at Lincoln Center in 1989, was subsequently released on Columbia/Sony Records.

One of the most elaborate tributes to Mingus came on September 29, 1969, at a festival honoring him. Duke Ellington performed The Clown, with Ellington reading Jean Shepherd's narration. It was long believed that no recording of this performance existed; however, one was discovered and premiered on July 11, 2013, by Dry River Jazz host Trevor Hodgkins for NPR member station KRWG-FM with re-airings on July 13, 2013, and July 26, 2014. Mingus's elegy for Duke, "Duke Ellington's Sound Of Love", was recorded by Kevin Mahogany on Double Rainbow (1993) and Anita Wardell on Why Do You Cry? (1995).

Awards and honors

 * 1971: Guggenheim Fellowship (Music Composition).
 * 1971: Inducted in the Down Beat Jazz Hall of Fame.
 * 1988: The National Endowment for the Arts provided grants for a Mingus nonprofit called "Let My Children Hear Music" which cataloged all of Mingus's works. The microfilms of these works were given to the Music Division of the New York Public Library where they are currently available for study.
 * 1993: The Library of Congress acquired Mingus's collected papers—including scores, sound recordings, correspondence and photos—in what they described as "the most important acquisition of a manuscript collection relating to jazz in the Library's history".
 * 1995: The United States Postal Service issued a stamp in his honor.
 * 1997: Posthumously awarded the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award.
 * 1999: Album Mingus Dynasty (1959) inducted in the Grammy Hall of Fame.
 * 2005: Inducted in the Jazz at Lincoln Center, Nesuhi Ertegun Jazz Hall of Fame.

Discography

 * Strings and Keys (1953)
 * Miss Bliss (1953)
 * Jazzical Moods, Volume 1 (1955)
 * Jazzical Moods, Volume 2 (1955)
 * Jazz Composers Workshop (1956)
 * Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956)
 * The Clown (1957)
 * Mingus Three (1957)
 * East Coasting (1957)
 * A Modern Jazz Symposium of Music and Poetry (1959)
 * Mingus Ah Um (1959)
 * Blues & Roots (1960)
 * Mingus Dynasty (1960)
 * Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (1960)
 * Pre-Bird (1961)
 * Newport Rebels (1961)
 * Mingus (1961)
 * Tijuana Moods (1962)
 * Oh Yeah (1962)
 * The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (1963)
 * Tonight at Noon (1964)
 * Mingus Plays Piano (1964)
 * Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (1964)
 * Blue Bird (1971)
 * Pithycanthropus Erectus (1971)
 * Charles Mingus with Orchestra (1971)
 * Let My Children Hear Music (1972)
 * Mingus Moves (1974)
 * Changes One (1975)
 * Changes Two (1975)
 * Three or Four Shades of Blues (1977)
 * Lionel Hampton Presents Charles Mingus (1977)
 * Cumbia & Jazz Fusion (1978)
 * Reincarnation Of A Love Bird (1988)
 * Mysterious Blues (1990)
 * Shadows (2016)

Filmography

 * 1959, Mingus contributed most of the music for John Cassavetes's gritty New York City film Shadows.
 * 1961, Mingus appeared as a bassist and actor in the British film All Night Long.
 * 1968, Thomas Reichman directed the documentary Mingus: Charlie Mingus 1968.
 * 1991, Ray Davies produced a documentary entitled Weird Nightmare. It contains footage of Mingus and interviews with artists making Hal Willner's tribute album of the same name, including Elvis Costello, Charlie Watts, Keith Richards, and Vernon Reid.
 * 1998, Charles Mingus: Triumph of the Underdog (78 minutes) a documentary film on Charles Mingus directed by Don McGlynn.

title: Charles Mingus


text:
Centimetre

A centimetre (International spelling) or centimeter (American spelling), with SI symbol cm, is a unit of length in the International System of Units (SI) equal to one hundredth of a metre, centi being the SI prefix for a factor of $1⁄100$. Equivalently, there are 100 centimetres in 1 metre. The centimetre was the base unit of length in the now deprecated centimetre–gram–second (CGS) system of units.

Though for many physical quantities, SI prefixes for factors of 103—like milli- and kilo-—are often preferred by technicians, the centimetre remains a practical unit of length for many everyday measurements; for instance, human height is commonly measured in centimetres. A centimetre is approximately the width of the fingernail of an average adult person.

Equivalence to other units of length

 * rowspan=4 valign=top|1 centimetre
 * = 10 millimetres
 * = 0.01 metres
 * = 0. 393700787401574803149606299212598425196850 inches
 * (There are exactly 2.54 centimetres in one inch.)
 * }
 * = 0. 393700787401574803149606299212598425196850 inches
 * (There are exactly 2.54 centimetres in one inch.)
 * }
 * }

One millilitre is defined as one cubic centimetre, under the SI system of units.

Other uses
In addition to its use in the measurement of length, the centimetre is used:
 * sometimes, to report the level of rainfall as measured by a rain gauge
 * in the CGS system, the centimetre is used to measure capacitance, where 1 cm of capacitance = $1.113$ farads
 * in maps, centimetres are used to make conversions from map scale to real world scale (kilometres)
 * to represent second moment of areas (cm4)
 * as the inverse of the Kayser, a CGS unit, and thus a non-SI metric unit of wavenumber: 1 kayser = 1 wave per centimetre; or, more generally, (wavenumber in kaysers) = 1/(wavelength in centimetres). The SI unit of wavenumber is the inverse metre, m−1.

Unicode symbols
For the purposes of compatibility with Chinese, Japanese and Korean (CJK) characters, Unicode has symbols for:
 * centimetre –
 * square centimetre –
 * cubic centimetre –

These characters are each equal in size to one Chinese character and are typically used only with East Asian, fixed-width CJK fonts.

title: Centimetre


text:
Central Coast

Central Coast may refer to:

Australia

 * Central Coast (New South Wales), an official region of New South Wales, Australia
 * Central Coast Council (New South Wales), a local government area in New South Wales
 * Central Coast Mariners, the professional football A-league club based in the region
 * Central Coast United FC, an amateur football club based in the region
 * Central Coast Stadium, Gosford
 * Central Coast Storm, a rugby league club based in the region
 * Central Coast Waves, a rugby union team playing in the Shute Shield
 * Central Coast Council (Tasmania), a local government area in Tasmania

Canada

 * Central Coast Regional District, in British Columbia, Canada

United States

 * Central Coast (California), in California, United States
 * Central Coast AVA, a large American viticultural area

title: Central Coast


text:
Committee on Data of the International Science Council

The Committee on Data of the International Science Council (CODATA) was established in 1966 as the Committee on Data for Science and Technology, originally part of the International Council of Scientific Unions, now part of the International Science Council (ISC). Since November 2023 its president is the Catalan researcher Mercè Crosas.

CODATA exists to promote global collaboration to advance open science and to improve the availability and usability of data for all areas of research. CODATA supports the principle that data produced by research and susceptible to being used for research should be as open as possible and as closed as necessary. CODATA works also to advance the interoperability and the usability of such data; research data should be FAIR (findable, accessible, interoperable and reusable). By promoting the policy, technological, and cultural changes that are essential to promote open science, CODATA helps advance ISC's vision and mission of advancing science as a global public good.

The CODATA Strategic Plan 2015 and Prospectus of Strategy and Achievement 2016 identify three priority areas:
 * 1) promoting principles, policies and practices for open data and open science;
 * 2) advancing the frontiers of data science;
 * 3) building capacity for open science by improving data skills and the functions of national science systems needed to support open data.

CODATA achieves these objectives through a number of standing committees and strategic executive led initiatives, and through its task groups and working groups. CODATA also works closely with member unions and associations of ISC to promote the efforts on open data and open science.

Publications and conferences
CODATA supports the Data Science Journal and collaborates on major data conferences like SciDataCon and International Data Week.

In October 2020 CODATA is co-organising an International FAIR Symposium together with the GO FAIR initiative to provide a forum for advancing international and cross-domain convergence around FAIR. The event will bring together a global data community with an interest in combining data across domains for a host of research issues – including major global challenges, such as those relating to the Sustainable Development Goals. Outcomes will directly link to the CODATA Decadal Programme Data for the Planet: making data work for cross-domain grand challenges and to the developments of GO FAIR community towards the Internet of FAIR data and services.

Task Group on Fundamental Physical Constants
One of the CODATA strategic Initiatives and Task Groups concentrates on Fundamental Physical Constants. Established in 1969, its purpose is to periodically provide the international scientific and technological communities with an internationally accepted set of values of the fundamental physical constants and closely related conversion factors for use worldwide.

The first such CODATA set was published in 1973. Later versions are named based on the year of the data incorporated; the 1986 CODATA (published April 1987) used data up to 1 January 1986. All subsequent releases use data up to the end of the stated year, and are necessarily published a year or two later: 1998 (April 2000), 2002 (January 2005), 2006 (June 2008), 2010 (November 2012), 2014 (June 2015), 2018 (May 2019), and 2022 (May 2024).

The CODATA recommended values of fundamental physical constants are published at the National Institute of Standards and Technology Reference on Constants, Units, and Uncertainty.

Schedule
Since 1998, the task group has produced a new version every four years, incorporating results published up to the end of the specified year.

In order to support the redefinition of the SI base units, adopted at the 26th General Conference on Weights and Measures on 16 November 2018, CODATA made a special release that was published in October 2017. It incorporates all data up to 1 July 2017,  and determines the final numerical values of h, e, k, and NA that are used for the new SI definitions.

The regular version with a closing date of 31 December 2018 was used to produce the new 2018 CODATA values that were made available by the time the revised SI came into force on 20 May 2019. This was necessary because the redefinitions have a significant (mostly beneficial) effect on the uncertainties and correlation coefficients reported by CODATA.