text:
Talk:History of Egypt

Miscellaneous
Shouldn't the history of Egypt be under an article Egypt/History?

No, this is a deep and complex subject and will need sub-pages of its own. Surely worth a topic in its own right. sjc

It will need lots and lots of articles, anyway, if not subpages.

This is a great article so far! --LMS

Yes, I helped canonize the */History bits by all the additions from the CIA World Factbook and now wish I hadn't; I've come to dislike subpages quite a lot--convinced, no doubt, by LMS' arguments. Anyway, but yes, this is a fantastic article. --Koyaanis Qatsi

Shouldn't this article also at least mention the most recent 2000 years of Egypt's history? Wesley

There's a lengthy writeup, in the public domain, here for anyone who cares to go through it and pick bits to incorporate. I don't consider myself qualified for it. Not a historian, Koyaanis Qatsi 15:20, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * I included the text from this source. Kind of data dumping, sorry about that. Need wikification. olivier 07:15, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have heard that Mohammed Ali (or Mehmet Ali) was actually of Albanian descent (see this). Is there any truth to this? ¬ Dori 05:32, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes he was born to Albanian parents, see Wikipedia article "Muhammad Ali of Egypt" for more details. The Sultan sent him to Egypt and he did so well for himself he took over Egypt and most of Sudan and got titles from the Ottoman Sultan, but was never considered by the Ottoman Sultan to be an independent ruler or governor. MichaelSchwing 00:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

-

This is a nice article, especially so since it tries to sum up 6000 years of history in about 10 pages. Some questions follow that I unfortunately don't know the answers to. Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

First off it would be great to have a definition of a dynasty since this is an important concept used throughout the article. Does this mean a pharoah and his son, descending through the male line until an interruption occurs? Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * The Dynasty concept comes from Manetho. It has just been easier to keep his divisions than replace it with a new system. Some of the Dynasties could be combined together by modern definitions of family/dynasty. For instance Zanakht-Nebka and Netjerkhet-Djoser were brothers, sons of Khasekhemwy, thus uniting the end of 2nd Dynasty and beginning of the 3rd. But with Djoser began the Old Empire and (step) pyramid building along with more substantial building in stone, all attributed to his architect Imhotep, though stone floors, and door frames had been used in earlier constructions of King's tombs (at Abydos for instance). The 17th Dynasty King Seqenenre II Tao was father of Kamose and Ahmose, but with Ahmose Manetho began the 18th Dynasty as this was the New Empire and the final expulsion of the Hyksos and their followers and began the expansion into Canaan and Mesopotamia, and not just raids into those areas. So there is no real definition of Dynasty in the modern use of the term that would pertain to every Egyptian dynasty. For instance again, the two dynasties of Persian Kings were of one Persian family/dynasty the Achaemenidae (in Greek form). But their reign was interrupted by native dynasties so they count as two dynasties. In the 18th Dynasty Thutmoase I became king through his marriage with the daughter of Amenhotep I, though it is generally considered he was a son by a lesser wife. All through the 17th, 18th, and early 19h Dynasties the King became King because he married the Great Heiress, daughter of a King before him, hence the many brother-sister and even father-daughter marriages of Kings in these dynasties.

MichaelSchwing 00:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

 * The Egyptions reached Crete around 2000 BC...

This is the first mention that the united Egyptian kingdom was expanding. Why did it expand in that direction? Do we know?

 * ...and were invaded by Indo-Europeans and Hyksos Semites.

They were invaded in Crete, or Egypt itself was invaded? Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * When the box was opened it contained just sludge, all that remains of the Queen.

Was this opening something that happened a few years after she died, or in the 1800's? Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * After this first one, several other Pyramids were built and some abandoned before they were finished.

It looks like something got deleted here. There isn't any mention of a pyramid before this paragraph. Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Sesostris I continued to wage war on Nubia.

This is the first time it's mentioned that there was a war against Nubia, unless the previous mention of "expeditions into Nubia" is meant to mean that a war was initiated and continued for 700 years. Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * His given name was Tutankhaton, but with the resurgence of Amun eh was re-named Tutankhamun.

This is the first mention of Amun -- if there's discussion of a resurgence, can we mention Amun in some way previously? Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The discussion about the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th dynasties is confusing -- how was it that the 23rd ran concurrent with the 22nd? Was this a power grab with a pretender to the throne? Who was who? Was there an actual war? (unclear.) Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * He died in 526 BC, and one year later in 525 BC Egypt fell under Persian power and Cambyset became the first king of the 27th Dynasty.

Fell under Persian power because of a military invasion? Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There are a couple of lists in the middle of the article that are there for unclear reasons -- the list starting with Abbas I and ending with Hosn Mubarak (this probably just needs a title), and the 3 lines "Visier Imhotep / Pharaoh Horus Netjerikhet Djzoser / Pyramid of Djzoser". Tempshill 01:13, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is the first time I have looked at this article. I see that 2,000 years of history from Alexander to Napoleon is summed up in one paragraph. This represents a very 19th century view of Egyptian history, that after the Pharaonic period the country ceased to be of interest until it was discovered by Europeans. Is anybody working on writing a proper history of this period, or interersted in doing so? Adam 03:23, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What is the original source for this edit?
 * http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=History_of_Egypt&diff=1365979&oldid=1365977

I can only find it on various non-governmental sites, rather than the state department as mentioned in the edit summary. Note that this edit caused me to list the History of Arab and Ottoman Egypt as a possible copyright violation. After spending another 30 minutes on it, it seems like I might be wrong, but it would have helped if the original source was listed in the article or at least the edit summary. Daniel Quinlan 09:00, Nov 24, 2003 (UTC)

2000 dynasties?!?!

 * "In the two thousand years that followed unification, more than two thousand dynasties rose and fell."

that means each dynasty was less than a year on average. Can a rule that was less than a year even be called a dynasty? -Lethe | Talk 01:01, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Introducing daughter articles
The six daughter articles should be introduced, not as a self-referential table of contents, but with each link accompanying a summary section on that period. This is not as hard as it sounds - inevitably a summary section needs to be kept short, and thus much content is not present, but for example, the "History of Ottoman Egypt" could at least explain in one or two sentences the fact of Egypt being in the Ottoman Empire (links being important too).

So, I suggest six short sections, of at most a half-dozen sentences each, with the daughter articles being linked to as follows:

 * Main article: History of Ottoman Egypt

I'm not going to do this myself, but I thought I'd take a minute to put this here for someone else to do if they so wish.

zoney ♣ talk 08:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

POV
many of the history sub-articles have Eurocentric POV problems. Mostly references to the British and Egypt's fiscal situations. There's just so much, it's difficult to be consistant in revising multiple articles with the same problems. --Schwael 17:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That's quite likely because they originally came from the 1911 Britannica. Anything you can do to improve them would be much appreciated. - SimonP 20:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Rulers of Egypt
I found a great list of the rulers of Egypt here. I couldn't find a similar list on Wikipedia, so I thought I would put the link here. I am also unsure how much of this can be used (copying lists that take a long time to compile is not really fair, and probably breaches copyright). However, if the list can be recompiled or checked against existing sources, and these sources added to a "Rulers of Egypt" list/article, then that might be OK. And I might have missed an existing list. Also, that list only goes up to 1796, so if it can be extended, that would be great. Carcharoth 14:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Having look round Wikipedia a bit more, I did find these pages: List of pharaohs; Rulers and heads of state of Egypt; Sultan of Egypt and some others. I tried to gather these lists at King of Egypt, which might not be the best name for what I've made the page. Is it worth having one page with all the rulers from ancient time to the present? Or would these separate lists be the best way to present it? Carcharoth 14:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Unified?
This section: The history of Egypt is the longest continuous history, as a unified state, of any country in the world, seems a bit odd to me. Wouldn't the unity imply a continuous rule inherited from the pharoahs, rather than rule by foreign invaders?

Yom 09:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

True. Plus, there is a difference between the Arab Republic of Egypt, Ancient Egypt, the Ptolemaic Kingdom, the Mamluk Sultanate, and the Ayyubid dynasty, IMO, they're different states (except maybe Arab Republican Egypt+Mamluk Sultanate+Ayyubids are the same thing, or just Ayyubids+Mamluks). 60.240.85.65 07:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Egypt is by fare the most ancient civilization the man kind has ever known. Since the Ancient ages the country stayed as a union between the north and the south. Later the "foreign invaders" invaded the whole country. Finally Islam Enters the country and it's a colony while Arabia is another colony and so as the levant. In the late ages of the Muslim Empire, Egypt was namely part of the rest of the Empire while it had and independent ruler who had the full power over the country -not a power over a colony with respect to the sultan-. Never the less, Shortly after the Ottomans came to power, Muhammad Ali Basha "The Great Baساa" claimed his control over the country and both namely and practically it was known as an independent state. He even fought the Sultan, and took parts of his Empire in the levant, arabia, and Africa. The French invaded the country and it was under their control -unlike the Ottoman Empire- and launched campaigns against the Ottomans from Egypt. The English did the same but succeeded this time, dividing arabia. the levant was under the control of the French and the English. After Independence, Egypt was not known as an arab nation. It's true that it participated in the 1948 war against the Jewish gangs, but the Egyptian participation was under the name of the Royal Egyptian Forces, while the arabs had their own  Arab liberalization Army. It's wasn't before Nasser when Egypt was known as an arab nation by force. For more Information about why that dose not make Egyptian arabs, read the Identity subarticle in the main article of the country. Egypt is a nation that was made by it's own people, a nation that wasn't made by invaders, and not a nation that divided from another. Simply, the oldest Unified State.One_last_pharaoh 4:01 AM, 30 January 2008
 * Incorrect. Sumer first achieved civilization at least a century earlier than Ancient Egypt.50.111.25.160 (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

United
i think that the fact that every arabic country has its own individual history is stupid. All it does is sponser further distance between these countries. While I wouldn't argue that all arabic countries all the same, the differences that exist between them arent of the severity that they should be subdivided. Before the british and the french got involved after the ottomen callopse, the arab countries were all one. I'm not sugesting that there should be one HUGE page describing each history- but one page with links to each country. At least this way the arab countries could be together. Seriously when one bothers to consider it, the differences are minute- yes there are lines and borders on a map- but had it not been for these-save the dialects- one couldnt tell a lebanese from a syrian from an iraqi or egyptian. All these countries are arabic they share the same culture. And while their history can differ, for example of course egyptian history and babylonian aren't the same, but it shouldn't be enough to divide them like this.

Whoa !! U can say; the world has collapsed, the sun swallowed the moon, the earth was turned apart, and the apes have become more superior to men. U cannot say that Egyptians are arabs, u cannot compare the history of Egypt with the history of the combined arab countries, and u even cannot say that the difference is not magnificent. Egyptians are simply Egyptians. they are not arabs, they are not like arabs, and that means that they are better. Arabs hate Egypt, but sorry fully Egyptians donot hate arabs -the majority- so good luck with your "arab union" article . —Preceding unsigned comment added by One last pharaoh (talk • contribs) 13:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

General History of Egypt
I was just thinking: what happens to the reader who is looking for a summary of the history of Egypt? Does the person need to read 10 different articles about different periods to get a general picture? This page should be transformed into a general article about the history of Egypt. --JLCA 10:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. It is terrible that this article was left as a shell for years. See my comments further down the page. Luwilt (talk) 21:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Link to German page
German Wikipedia does not have an article about the history of Egypt in general, the link pointed to an article about the history of the Republic of Egypt, which covers only the time since 1952. I have thus moved this link to History of modern Egypt which, though it covers a longer time period, is the closest that English Wikipedia has.—Graf Bobby (talk) 12:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Date
I had read somewhere that Ottoman Egypt last until 1914 when a protectorate was declared, also Egypt under Ali dynasty should included into Ottoman Egypt. 96.229.126.4 (talk) 18:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * See History of modern Egypt. — Zerida  ☥   18:31, 13 April 2008 (

Foreign rule
So basicly Egypt was under contunius foreign rule for almost 3000 years after the fall of the 21st dynesty starting around 1000BC first by the Libians and Nubians till 670 then by the Asseryans to 600 and persians to 300 then by the greeks under the mecadonian empire then a hellenistic kingdom to 30 BC then by the romens and byzantians to 600 and after that by the arabs first directy in the calpiet then under indipendet arab states and dynesties after 900 to 1600 and then by the ottemen turks first directly from istenble then a quassy independent saltunite in the 19th centry and then by the british first dyrectly as a protecterate then by a pupit turkish dynesty untill the 1940's and then independently by a turkish king to 1956. --J intela (talk) 04:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"The history of Egypt is the longest of any country."
I thought the ancient Egypt has nothing to do with Egypt today culture wise. What could be used to support this very affirmative statement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.10.115.129 (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC) the world as we know it is very strange and I believe that egypt itself has the most fantastic history! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.155.32.35 (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Original Research + Sources
This article quite confidently declares that Egypt has been a "state" for 5,000 years. Given that we rarely date the modern idea or states further back than 500 years. I'm going to label it as original research and as lacking sources. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * State is the wrong word, but it is true that Egypt has existed as an entity for that long. I'm not sure what the best term is for it. Encarta calls it a "coherent political entity with a recorded history since about 3200 BC" while Britannica calls it "one of the world’s oldest continuous civilizations." - SimonP (talk) 17:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

scope
This is essentially a disambiguation page. History of Ancient Egypt is already a huge WP:SS article, and there is simply no benefit of giving another summary of that here and combine it with summaries on modern Egypt.
 * That is absolutely wrong. You are forgetting that this article exists to serve readers. The destruction of this basic article is a lamentable example of the failures of the wiki approach at their worst. Luwilt (talk) 21:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

A tabular overview of the main periods may be useful. Alternatively, this could either be a strict disambig page (mainly between History of Ancient Egypt, Medieval Egypt, Ottoman Egypt and History of the Republic of Egypt), or a redirect to Egypt. --dab (𒁳) 14:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

This article must exist!
This is a basic topic, and the article simply must exist. Wikipedia's purpose is to serve the general reader. The general reader is likely to be looking for a basic introduction to the topic. Being informed that there are twenty more detailed articles available is not an acceptable substitute. It may seem that it is to an academic, but for the general reader it is not. I will start the repair of this editorial disaster by cutting and pasting the history section of the main Egypt article and adding an expansion notice. This article exists to serve readers who want an overview of the history of Egypt. It should be longer than the section in the main Egypt article, which is exists to serve readers who want a rounded overview of the country, and less detailed than breakout articles. This is not strange, it is the way the whole of wikipedia should work. It must not lose sight of its audience. It is not a database that simply accumulates facts, and it is not aimed at academics, who only attach status to extreme detail. It is an encyclopedia. Luwilt (talk) 21:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I very much agree. Great work getting this started. - SimonP (talk) 21:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You have just created pointless duplication of content. I can appreciate your point, but you need to address this by redistributing content, not by writing yet another article about the history of Egypt (we have about three of those so far). If you really think that the entirely unrelated topics of history of Ancient Egypt and history of the Republic of Egypt need to be merged, please do a proper merge proposal. At some point, summaries of summaries of summaries are so summarized that a further summary of the summary of the summary of the summary is simply pointless. --dab (𒁳) 10:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is a suggestion: instead of duplicating content, we can lose history of Ancient Egypt. We have Ancient Egypt, which is inherently historical, so that a separate "history of" isn't needed. History of Ancient Egypt can be a section redirect to Ancient_Egypt. Now History of Egypt can become a very succinct WP:SS article, as outlined in the present revision, with five very brief sections, Basically, this just means adding bare bone prose to the list-like arrangement of dedicated articles we have now. Anything more will be detrimental. Why? Because it is a nightmare to maintain articles with large scope overlaps. People keep adding random material to one or the other article, and most of the time the summary will outgrow the dedicated article. This is part of the natural dynamics of the wiki, and we need to harness these dynamics, not try to work against it. --dab (𒁳) 12:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Prehistory
 * Ancient Egypt
 * Greco-Roman Egypt
 * Islamic Egypt
 * Modern Egypt
 * This makes sense to me. I agree with your point about people adding random material to almost arbitrarily chosen articles (usually probably without knowing there are related articles. Dougweller (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

the problem is that nobody does it. People are very quick with comments like "This article must exist!" but not as a rule willing to do the work required. Things were just fine before article recreation. They could be fixed along the lines discussed above. As long as nobody is willing to arrange this, our best option is just to revert to the status quo ante. --dab (𒁳) 15:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

dramas
you are a fool !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.98.66.120 (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Expand!
This page is a copy of the history section of Egypt, it should be so much more than that. Egypt has an 7000-year old history, give it some real coverage guys! Charles Essie (talk) 00:34, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Egypt's history is describable in such detail that it's spread across many specific pages, e.g. History of Ptolemaic Egypt. This is just a summary article, describing the overall trend and providing links to more specific articles. It should be longer than the History section in the Egypt article, of course, but it shouldn't include all of Egyptian history. Knight of Truth (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

WW2?
How can you have a History of Egypt that totally omits the world-changing events of the desert campaign of 1940-43? Valetude (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

add more thigs about it, while doing a projret, not useful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.124.220.81 (talk) 14:10, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Can't understand the above response. Valetude (talk) 14:24, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Recentism
This article is meant to give the reader a quick overview of the history of Egypt (obviously). It is not meant to cover current events on a month by month basis. We have History of the Republic of Egypt and History of modern Egypt. At the moment the pre-Republic bits have just over 2000 words, and the part covering the Republic is just less than that - almost half. Editors need to move material to the articles covering contemporary Egypt to give this article more balance. Dougweller (talk) 15:20, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

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Mutilated history?
Should it not mention more? What about connections with american stone buiders? Pyramids, precision drilling, stone clamps, giant stones, elongated skulls, similar gods... Similar items for a never explained ancient high technology. You can think this is nonsense, but the questions remains unanswered.--79.148.182.23 (talk) 17:44, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Classical antiquity?

Classical antiquity is not the Twenty-seventh Dynasty of Egypt, twenty-eighth dynasty, twenty-ninth dynasty, Thirtieth dynasty, ... Sasanian Egypt. What book or museum classifies it that way? See: Classical antiquity? Is Late Period and Greco-Roman Egypt. Regards JMCC1 (talk) 13:50, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Periods in Ancient Egypt
 * University College London
 * Los Angeles County Museum of Art
 * Shaw, Ian. The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt. Late Period 664-332 BC, Ptolemaic 332-30 BC, etc.

Regards JMCC1 (talk) 14:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The template deals with the history of Egypt
 * The influence of Greece in Egypt begins with the arrival of Alexander and the Ptolemies
 * This influence was important in Alexandria, but not in all of Egypt
 * As can be seen in all books, museums and in the wikipedia category, dynasties 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and 31 are the Late Period of Egypt, they are not Classical antiquity.
 * The period of the Ptolemies and Romans is called Greco-Roman Egypt, not Classical antiquity, for its partial influence on Egyptian art.

JMCC1, the Achaemenid Empire in one interpretation is considered to be part of the early classical age. This is why in the template when Egypt comes under Persian Administration, it is from then on considered to be part of classical antiquity and no longer part of the Ancient era. The same can be said about the Sassanid conquest of Egypt. Antiquity is not just specific to the Greco-Roman world but encompasses the middle east as well. I'm glad you started a discussion about your concerns on the talk page but you cannot change said template until the dispute is resolved and a consensus is reached. One possible route this can be done is by coming to an understanding between users and a compromise is considered. Engaging in edit wars is not productive in any circumstance and will only make yourself look bad. So please revert your last edit on the template until this issue has been resolved. Also you cannot leave those specific warnings/threats like the one you left on my talk page unless you are an administrator. Attempting to abuse administrative powers that you do not have clearance for can get you into serious trouble. So please remove that warning/threat from my talk page as well. Lets try and be reasonable about this without needing to escalate this any further. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I can see how the template ended up classifying the Twenty-seventh Dynasty onwards as "classical antiquity", because those periods were contemporary with classical antiquity, which conventionally starts with the Classical Age in Greece in the early fifth century BC. But JMCC1 is right that this is not the way the chronological lines are drawn in the history of Egypt. The Late Period, in which Egypt alternated between native and Persian rule, is traditionally set apart from the Ptolemaic period, when, although Egypt was independent of any outside power, Greek culture intruded on and affected Egyptian culture more profoundly than had the culture of any of Egypt's previous conquerors. The era of Roman imperial rule is generally lumped in with the Ptolemaic period as the Greco-Roman era, because Greek culture, the common culture of the eastern half of the empire, continued to shape that of Egypt in Roman times. (There's a case to be made that those two periods shouldn't be lumped together, but that's another ball of wax, and in any case it's not the Egyptologists' traditional way of dividing things up.) The convention division is between "Dynastic Egypt", that is, Egypt under any of the 30 (or 31) dynasties listed by Manetho, and "Greco-Roman Egypt". "Classical antiquity" is a Greek- and Roman-centric term, and I don't think it should be used in the template at all. A. Parrot (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I would prefer all the dynasties currently shown in the template to remain on it, but I would be just as fine if the Kushite, Persian and later Egyptian dynasties shown "Ancient" and "Classical Antiquity" after the Third Intermediate Period be instead shown in a new category called "Late Period". EdwardElric2016 (talk) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not proposing removing any dynasties from the template—this is the general History of Egypt template, so it incorporates everything from the Predynastic to the present. The question is where to put the dividers. (The current dividers that aren't under dispute are Ancient, Medieval, Early modern, and Modern.) Ending the Ancient Egypt section after the Third Intermediate Period doesn't make sense. The Late Period is still considered part of Dynastic Egypt, and the Third Intermediate–Late Period boundary is the least intuitive of the major divisions in ancient Egyptian history. The question is: where should the Ancient Egypt section end? Based on the way the sources divide things up, we have several options, some with more standing in the sources than others. Another major point of division in this period is the extinction of hieroglyphic and Demotic writing as well as ancient Egyptian religion, which cut off the Coptic Christian society of late Roman times from its pre-Greek past, but it's not a division we can reflect in this template because the change happened in the middle of Roman rule.
 * 1) The Late Period–Ptolemaic boundary, with the end of truly native rule and (a mere ten years later) the onset of Hellenistic culture shock.
 * 2) The Ptolemaic–Roman boundary, with the end of political independence.
 * 3) The Roman–Islamic boundary, which initiated the transformation of a still Egyptian-speaking Christian culture into an Arabic-speaking Muslim one.

If we choose #1, then there's no good title for the section that follows Ancient Egypt except "Greco-Roman Egypt". If we choose #2, Roman and Byzantine Egypt has to stand on its own, with no other bullet points in the section. If we choose #3, it simplifies things because the section headings go straight from Ancient to Medieval, but it ignores that histories of ancient Egypt, including WP's main ancient Egypt article, often end with one of the two earlier cutoff dates, and it lumps together late Roman Egypt with the dynastic culture that it was so disconnected from. A. Parrot (talk) 23:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not saying that it was you specifically who wanted to remove those dynasties from the template. If that is the assumption you made then I apologize for the confusion. What I meant to say is that in all of JMCC1's edits, the Achaemenid and post Achaemenid dynasties (non Greco-Roman) as well as Sassanian controlled Egypt were no longer viable on the template. I simply wanted to state my preference to keeping all of the dynasty links in the template. With respect to your proposals to when the Ancient period categorization should end, ending with the Macedonian conquest of Egypt makes the most sense to me since that is when native rule truly ended. Though it should also be noted that Ancient Egyptian practices were still being practice largely under the Ptolemaic dynasty, though I'm currently unsure how significant that fact should play when deciding where the Ancient Period ought to end. With respect to Sassanian Egypt, do you think that it should be placed under Classical antiquity of placed under the Middle ages? I personally would prefer it to be placed in the classical antiquity section since the Roman retook control of Egypt from the Sassanians. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 23:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I'd group everything from Alexander's conquest to the Arab conquest together, thus including the Sassanians but it's probably better to call the section for that Greco-Roman. "Classical antiquity" simply isn't a term commonly applied to the history of ancient Egypt, and everything from the third century AD/CE to the seventh is considered late antiquity, not classical. A. Parrot (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Your proposal makes sense to me. With respect to another concern I have, I would like the links such as Kushite Egypt and Achaemenid Egypt to be placed under the "Ancient Egypt" category as opposed to removing them entirely and replacing them with "Late Period" as JMCC1 has done. I see those periods as too distinct in their own right to be removed and condensed with a late period link. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 00:30, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

What about you ? You should be engaging in this discussion since you are the one who brought up the dispute in the first place. You also have yet to address the  warning/threat you left on my talk page. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Totally in agreement with A. Parrot. JMCC1 (talk) 01:24, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Proposal 1

 * History of Egypt
 * Prehistoric Egypt
 * Ancient Egypt
 * Early Dynastic Period	3150–2686 BC
 * Old Kingdom	2686–2181 BC
 * 1st Intermediate Period	2181–2055 BC
 * Middle Kingdom	2055–1650 BC
 * 2nd Intermediate Period	1650–1550 BC
 * New Kingdom	1550–1069 BC
 * 3rd Intermediate Period	1069–664 BC
 * Late Period	664–332 BC
 * See: Category:Ancient Egypt. Similar periods
 * See also: Template:Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar and Template:Pharaohs
 * Proposal 2

 * Greco-Roman Egypt
 * Hellenistic Egypt
 * Roman Egypt
 * See: Category:History of Egypt by period. Similar periods
 * See also: Category:Hellenistic Egypt and Category:Roman Egypt

What is your opinion? JMCC1 (talk) 09:54, 14 January 2019 (UTC) (Links) JMCC1 (talk) 21:05, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

With respect to Ancient Egypt, foreign ruled or very significant dynasties like Bubastite Egypt, Kushite Egypt, Assyrian/Saite Egypt, and Achaemenid Egypt should not be removed and replaced by something too vague like "Late Period" as we would be removing information which in my opinion would be decreasing the quality of the template. Bubastite Egypt is significant since its the first time Egypt had been politically unified since the New Kingdom. I would be willing to include the "Late period" into the template as long as we also keep Kushite Egypt, Assyrian/Saite Egypt, and Achaemenid Egypt. Also we should not ignore Sassanian Egypt and should not have been removed from the template because again that would be decreasing the quality of the template. This is what I would propose. Proposal 1
 * Prehistoric Egypt
 * Ancient Egypt
 * Early Dynastic Period	3150–2686 BC
 * Old Kingdom	2686–2181 BC
 * 1st Intermediate Period	2181–2055 BC
 * Middle Kingdom	2055–1650 BC
 * 2nd Intermediate Period	1650–1550 BC
 * New Kingdom	1550–1077 BC
 * 3rd Intermediate Period	1069–664 BC
 * Bubastite Egypt 945 BC - 720 BC
 * Kushite Egypt	744–656 BC
 * Late Period	664–332 BC
 * Assyrian/Saite Egypt 664-525 BC
 * First Achaemenid Egypt	525–404 BC
 * Second Achaemenid Egypt 343–332 BC
 * Greco-Roman Egypt
 * Macedonian/Ptolmaic Egypt 332–30 BC
 * Roman/Byzantine Egypt 30 BC–641 AD
 * Sassanian Egypt 619–629

Also JMCC1 please undo your edits onto the Egypt template at least until a new template design can be agreed upon and finalized. I do appreciate that you took action to remove the warning/threat from my personal talk page so many thanks for that. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 22:30, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Changes to the template are reviewed by an administrator, Favonian, see User talk:73.15.114.246
 * Please, we should try to improve the template, without mixing periods with subperiods. JMCC1 (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

The text of the template must match the classification of the categories and with the Egyptian history books. I have indicated references. I want to see the references of books or museums that support your classification. JMCC1 (talk) 23:41, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Not to be rude but, I think it's quite deceptive of you to state that your edits were reviewed by an administrator when all I saw from the link you provided was some IP getting a warning for edit warring in a separate template not even related to this one. I will ask you once again to reverse your edits until a new template design is agreed upon. As of right now, your edits have not gained a consensus. It doesn't matter how right you think you are. I only, in your words "mixed up the periods" in my proposal, as a possible compromise with you. I would still prefer that no link/dynasty from the original template be removed, but will agree that the dates of the categories of "Ancient Egypt" and "Classical Antiquity" be changed. I fully believe that removing periods of Egyptian history won't improve the quality of the template as you have done. So I disagree with your definition of improving the template. Can we at least agree to not remove Sassanian Egypt from the template? If we are unsuccessful in bridging and coming to any kind of compromise or understanding between us, we may need to get other people involved to make a final decision on our behalf. What is your opinion ? EdwardElric2016 (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I know I said I didn't propose removing any dynasties from the template, but I didn't entirely realize the differences between your preferred versions. This template is focused on the broad strokes of Egyptian history, unlike the Template:Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar that is used in most articles on periods of ancient Egyptian history, so we don't want to get too detailed. Subdividing the Third Intermediate and Late Periods doesn't work because the template only has two levels: the very broad sections (Ancient, Medieval, etc.) and the kingdoms and periods. Putting the TIP and LP on the same level as their own subdivisions causses confusion. Moreover, subdividing these periods doesn't fit with the practice of the sources. For instance, no periodization of ancient Egyptian history separates out the Bubastite period unless it's counting individual dynasties. The three dynasties of the New Kingdom are more significant than any of the individual dynasties in the Third Intermediate or Late Period—it's hard to overstate how large the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth loom in the archaeological record and the Egyptological literature compared with the periods that preceded and followed them.

 * I think Wikipedia's coverage of the periods of Egypt's Islamic history is less organized and maintained than that on ancient Egypt—the Western public's enormous fascination with AE countervails Wikipedia's general tendency toward recentism. Therefore, it's worthwhile for this template to cover shorter periods of Egypt's late antique and Islamic history (and thus include the Sassanian period). People looking for detail on AE can find their way to the dynasty articles; practically every article that is linked in the AE section of this template includes Template:Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar.

 * To sum up, my preferred version looks a lot like JMCC1's but with the addition of the Sasanians:

 * Prehistoric Egypt
 * Ancient Egypt
 * Early Dynastic Period	3150–2686 BC
 * Old Kingdom	2686–2181 BC
 * 1st Intermediate Period	2181–2055 BC
 * Middle Kingdom	2055–1650 BC
 * 2nd Intermediate Period	1650–1550 BC
 * New Kingdom	1550–1077 BC
 * 3rd Intermediate Period	1069–664 BC
 * Late Period	664–332 BC

 * Greco-Roman Egypt
 * Macedonian and Ptolemaic Egypt 332–30 BC
 * Roman and Byzantine Egypt 30 BC–641 AD
 * Sasanian Egypt 619–629

 * A. Parrot (talk) 03:59, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Even though I would prefer periods like Kushite Egypt and Achaemenid Egypt to be seen in the template like we see Ptolemaic or Roman Egypt, I do ultimately see your point. Also I wasn't aware that a detailed template like the one you showed even existed. I would be fine with your exact version of the template. My question is what to do about the period between 1077 and 1069 BC? Another thing on a different note is that I think we also have issues with Medieval Egypt. The Rashidun, Ummayad, and Abbasid periods only links to the caliphate itself as opposed to the Egyptian province during that time. My proposal would be to replace the 3 subcategories in question with a single Arabian/Islamic Caliphate Egypt subcategory if a decent article for that exists. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 05:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Aha, hadn't noticed the 1077/1069 discrepancy. I was just copying the proposal you laid out and modifying it. There is no period between the two; most sources give 1070 or 1069 as the end date of the New Kingdom and the beginning of the Third Intermediate Period. The current version of the template reflects that and uses 1069 for both. The 1077 date must be somebody's copying error.

 * As for the Islamic period, there doesn't seem to be a distinct article for Egypt in the caliphal period, just Egypt in the Middle Ages, which is already linked in the template and covers later Arab dynasties as well as the caliphates. A. Parrot (talk) 05:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Ultimately I will be fine with A. Parrot's proposal as long as Sassasian Egypt in kept in the template and the Ancient Egypt dynasties sidebar is added into the History of Egypt Wikipedia article. The 1077 BC date came from the New Kingdom Wikipedia article itself. If this date is incorrect, it should be fixed immediately. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 05:35, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I changed the date on the New Kingdom article (it was unsourced anyway). I also went ahead and edited the template, even though hadn't weighed in on my latest proposal, but I hope it's satisfactory to everybody. If not, we can tweak it. A. Parrot (talk) 05:52, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Thank you very much A. Parrot. I appreciate all the help you have given us regarding this dispute. I am satisfied with the end result. EdwardElric2016 (talk) 05:55, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Thank you very much A. Parrot. Thank you very much EdwardElric. I am also satisfied with the end result. JMCC1 (talk) 18:33, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

This Article is Very Small and Needs to be Greatly Expanded!
Well I don't see a reason for removing my copies (You may think they are unessential but they're, as I would point to that later). This article is very small for such a topic and must be greatly expanded. It's not all about me. If you refer to Recentism, WW2?, Expand!, This article must exist!, scope and "The history of Egypt is the longest of any country.", you would see that it's not only my opinion to expand this page. This issue has been discussed long before I started editing in Wikipedia. If I didn't know anything about the history of Egypt and then read this article, It won't help me to learn anything. I should always go to even more articles to understand the history of Egypt properly and that's the reason that made me copy some content from other articles, to make this article independent from them and is able to provide readers with essential information about the history of Egypt without referring to any other article. If you read The History of France (37,341 words) or The History of Germany (38,814), you may get a detailed view of what's the history of France or Germany is like. I would also point to the histories of Australia (39,249 words), U.S. (27,226 words), Canada (17,048 words), South Africa (19,985 words) and even Liberia (8,413 words) are larger than that of Egypt on Wikipedia, Which is unreasonable. They all give a detailed history of their countries. so please, stop removing my copies from this article, I'm trying to help making this article better.

written by Mark Wagdy El-Magrisy  13:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 * The article does need expansion, but it should still be a summary, not an agglomeration of all the articles on each sub-topic. The accepted practice on Wikipedia is to limit the length of articles on broad topics, such as this one, no matter how broad they may be. That way, it's possible to read the entire article in one sitting, and anyone seeking more detail on a particular sub-topic can look at the article on that sub-topic. There's no firm length limit, but it's generally considered unwise to greatly exceed 10,000 words.

 * This approach means that this article will be rather cursory—if you're already familiar with the history of Egypt, you won't learn anything new. But an article this broad will mainly be for those who need an introduction to the topic, or who need to find the sub-article on a topic they aren't familiar with and don't know how to search for. Even that cursory text, though, needs a certain level of cohesion, which is why pasting in text from other articles isn't an ideal solution. A. Parrot (talk) 02:23, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

 * It's a sort of a taster article - it should give readers the flavor of each period and make them hungry for more. This is covered in WP:Summary style which should give you an idea of what such an article should look like. WP:TOOBIG discusses the size of articles - sadly the French article must be very difficult to load in many areas due to all the images. A reader should be able to get a broad outline of the history of Egypt in just a few minutes, and can then drill down to more detailed articles. I'll also emphasise the need for cohesion, which isn't accomplished by large chunks of copy and paste. In many cases most of the material if not all could come from the lead. And while I'm on leads, this one is too large - see WP:LEAD. I'm sure the first paragraph could be rewritten, maybe incorporate some material from others, and there's too much detail Of course leads in summary articles are bound to be difficult to write. Doug Weller  talk 08:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

History the Nile River and how it influenced settlements
It because it would not make it easier than to do u and pay me to do the work I did for my kids this Alfred 102.220.210.81 (talk) 18:02, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Muslim rulers nominated by the Islamic Caliphate?
According to the text, after the Arab Islamic conquest in the 7th century, 'Muslim rulers nominated by the Islamic Caliphate remained in control of Egypt for the next six centuries, with Cairo as the seat of the Caliphate under the Fatimids. '

I don't see how this makes sense. The Fatimids, who took control of Egypt as early as the 10th century and ruled until the mid-12th century, were not 'rulers nominated by the Islamic Caliphate', they rebelled against the Sunni Caliphate and established their own rival Shia Caliphate. So Egypt was controlled by the original Caliphate for only approximately three centuries, not six as the text says, and was then independent from it for about two centuries. Also, Egypt was de facto independent for a period before that, under the Tulunids (868–905), making the period of true Caliphate control even shorter. And even after the Fatimids, from the 12th to the 16th century, the Ayyubids and the Mamluks may have recognised Abbasid rule nominally, but in practice these were independent states and the rulers weren't actually chosen by the caliph or controlled by him. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 19:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of Egypt


text:
The Hound of Heaven

"The Hound of Heaven" is a 182-line poem written by English poet Francis Thompson (1859–1907). The poem became famous and was the source of much of Thompson's posthumous reputation. It was first printed in 1890 in the periodical Merry England, later to appear in Thompson's first volume of poems in 1893. It was included in the Oxford Book of English Mystical Verse (1917).

Form and theme
The poem is an ode, and its subject is the pursuit of the human soul by God's love - a theme also found in the devotional poetry of George Herbert and Henry Vaughan. Moody and Lovett point out that Thompson's use of free and varied line lengths and irregular rhythms reflect the panicked retreat of the soul, while the structured, often recurring refrain suggests the inexorable pursuit as it comes ever closer.

The Jesuit J.F.X. O'Conor remarks of the Christian themes of the poem that, "'The name is strange. It startles one at first. It is so bold, so new, so fearless. It does not attract, rather the reverse. But when one reads the poem this strangeness disappears. The meaning is understood. As the hound follows the hare, never ceasing in its running, ever drawing nearer in the chase, with unhurrying and unperturbed pace, so does God follow the fleeing soul by His Divine grace. And though in sin or in human love, away from God it seeks to hide itself, Divine grace follows after, unwearyingly follows ever after, till the soul feels its pressure forcing it to turn to Him alone in that never ending pursuit.'"

Musical settings

 * William Henry Harris The Hound of Heaven (1919)
 * Humphrey John Stewart The Hound of Heaven (1924)
 * Miriam Gideon The Hound of Heaven (1945)
 * Maurice Jacobson The Hound of Heaven (1953)
 * Howard Blake Benedictus (1980)
 * Ronald Corp The Hound of Heaven (2009)

Influence

 * Actor Dean Jones used the line "Under Running Laughter" from the first stanza as the title of his memoir.
 * Thompson's work was praised by G. K. Chesterton, and it was also an influence on J. R. R. Tolkien, who presented a paper on Thompson in 1914.
 * In 1933, Halliday Sutherland used a phrase from the second line of the poem as the title of his best-selling autobiography, The Arches of the Years.
 * In 1935, Paramahansa Yogananda, an Indian spiritual master, included "The Hound of Heaven" in one of his phonographic albums, Songs of My Heart. Today, his organization, Self-Realization Fellowship, offers this album in the form of a CD. Kamala Silva, a purported direct disciple of Paramahansa Yogananda, received the gift of a printing of the "Hound of Heaven" from Yogananda and he also recited it for her.
 * A short passage from the poem appears in chapter four of Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca (1938).
 * "The Hound of Heaven" inspired Norwegian composer Fartein Valen (1887–1952) to compose his Piano Sonata No. 2, Op. 38 (1941). The sonata's three movements reflect different parts of Thompson's poem. The piece has been recorded by Glenn Gould.
 * Thompson's poem is mentioned and quoted in Robert Frost's 1947 play A Masque of Mercy.
 * "The Hound of Heaven" was used as an example of the hero's "refusal of the call" to adventure in Joseph Campbell's book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949)
 * In 1955, a love letter from Suzanne Kempe to her philosophy lecturer, Sydney Sparkes Orr, quotes excerpts from the poem. Their affair was later brought to trial in Tasmania.
 * Thompson's poem is the source of the phrase, "with all deliberate speed," used by the Supreme Court in Brown II (1955), the remedy phase of the famous decision on school desegregation.
 * Thompson's poem was the inspiration for a series of 23 paintings by the American painter R. H. Ives Gammell (1893–1981), A Pictorial Sequence Painted by R. H. Ives Gammell Based on The Hound of Heaven, which was in planning by 1941 and completed in 1956. A reading of The Psychology of the Unconscious by C. G. Jung showed Gammell a way in which he might give visual form to Thompson's poem.
 * "The Hound of Heaven" is the fifth chapter in Robert L. Short's 1965 book The Gospel According to Peanuts where he describes Snoopy as a "little Christ" carrying out "Christ's ambivalent work of humbling the exalted and exalting the humble."
 * In A. J. Cronin's novel, A Pocketful of Rye (1969), the protagonist Carroll reads the poem as a young man, forgets it, and suffers from a recurring nightmare that finally leads to his conversion.
 * In 1970, Canadian artist William Kurelek used lines from "The Hound of Heaven" as titles for his "Nature, Poor Stepdame, A Series of Sixteen Farm Paintings"
 * In 1975 "The Hound of Heaven" was mentioned in the suicide note of George R. Price, a geneticist who pioneered the evolutionary theory of altruism and suicide (among other things), before becoming a committed Christian and giving away all his possessions to the poor.
 * The Christian alternative rock band Daniel Amos wrote a song titled Hound of Heaven on their 1978 album Horrendous Disc that is based on the Thompson poem.
 * Contemporary Christian music artist Michael Card also wrote and recorded a song called "Hound of Heaven" based on Thompson's poem for his 1981 debut album First Light.
 * Lines from the poem are recited between the discussion during the last scene in "The last enemy", which is the 2nd episode, 3rd season of Inspector Morse (1989).
 * In 2001 Ken Bruen cites the poem admiringly in his novel The Guards.
 * In 2002, Katherine A. Powers, literary columnist for the Boston Globe, called Hound of Heaven "perhaps the most beloved and ubiquitously taught poem among American Catholics for over half a century".
 * "The Hound of Heaven" is the first chapter in John Stott's book Why I am a Christian (2003) in which he confesses that he is a Christian not because of the influence of his parents and teachers, nor to his own personal decision, but to being relentlessly pursued by 'the Hound of Heaven', that is, Jesus Christ himself.
 * The poem is mentioned and lines quoted in the novel Escape from Hell (2009) by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
 * The main character is reading a book by this name in the first episode of the Irish TV series Jack Taylor.
 * In describing her journey from atheism and agnosticism to devout Christianity, Fox News commentator Kirsten Powers said, "The Hound of Heaven had pursued me and caught me...."
 * In 2014, N. D. Wilson wrote and directed a short film based upon the poem, titled "The Hound of Heaven".
 * In April 2020, in an interview with Phoebe Waller-Bridge on his show The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, Stephen Colbert told her that he thought the fox that appeared in her series Fleabag was the Hound of Heaven, which appeared to astound and delight Waller-Bridge.

 * Five lines from the poem were used in a 1989 episode of Inspector Morse, The Last Enemy.
 * "...My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap. / My days have crackled and gone up in smoke, / Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream. / Yea, faileth now even dream / The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist...."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: The Hound of Heaven


text:
User:HelgeStenstrom

Swedish. Electronics engineer, IC designer. Plays saxophone and clarinet. Has just bought a new bicycle. Runs MacOs on his home PC.

sv: User:HelgeStenstrom

title: User:HelgeStenstrom


text:
Talk:Java applet

While this HowTo is usuful, it's incomplete. What is appletviewer and where is ist available? Is it a shell command?
 * Appletviewer is a command line program to view applets without a web browser. Swirlix 11:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Appletviewer is included with the JDK. Plugwash 00:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

-- Do we need how to page? -- Taku 05:51 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC) - This is a terrible article. It assumes you know more than the average reader of a wikipedia.

Is this even English?
"Java applets run at very fast speeds comparable to, but generally slower than, other compiled languages such as C++, but until approximately 2011, it had been many times faster than JavaScript."

1st Comment: This sentence reads so poorly I can hardly understand it. 2nd Comment: For those versed in programming languages, this sentence is reasonably clear.

I think the problem is a missing or misplaced comma. If you like commas, it should be this:

"Java applets run at very fast speeds comparable to, but generally slower than, other compiled languages such as C++, but, until approximately 2011, it had been many times faster than JavaScript."

If you don't like commas (US?), it should be this:

"Java applets run at very fast speeds comparable to, but generally slower than, other compiled languages such as C++ but, until approximately 2011, it had been many times faster than JavaScript."

Personally, I think that it is much better to use an unambiguous symbol there that sets the precedence:

"Java applets run at very fast speeds comparable to, but generally slower than, other compiled languages such as C++; but, until approximately 2011, it had been many times faster than JavaScript."

Rick Jelliffe (talk) 00:25, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

"Compatibility related lawsuits" section should be moved/removed
It has nothing to with applets, explicitly. It should moved to an article about the Java platform general. 131.193.224.239 (talk) 19:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I am under impression that at least Sun-Microsoft lawsuits were mostly about applets. Already present runtimes seem not very important for standalone programs as the installer can always bundles its own specific version Audriusa (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

APPLET tag
Is it still bad to use the APPLET tag if you want to use a recent version of Java? - furrykef (Talk at me) 19:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * is the prefered tag acording to the W3C, while tags like, and are all depreciated in the later XHTML spesifications. Actual browser support for this have up untill fairly recently been somewhat dodgy, but should work with the latest version of most major browsers by now. Support for will probably not be removed any time soon though, so you can keep using it for a while still, it's just not "valid" (X)HTML acording to the latest standards anymore. --Sherool 22:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Last i checked applet was still allowed at least in the transitional versions (rather than the strict versions). on the other hand applet leaves you with a still real (though decreasing) chance of ending up running in the MS JVM which may not be very desirable. Plugwash 21:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The root of all problems is that must be different for Internet Explorer and Firefox, and the work-arounds are such that the final result does not look nice anyway. A typical problem of browser wars, I would think Audriusa (talk) 09:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

 * Would it not be a good idea to also include a valid HTML5 code example, with a nested (IE) and (Firefox)? 108.22.250.31 (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

COMPATABILITY
This page is stated to be written in English. I´m not a Native English Speaker, but, anyway, I would like to know what means the word COMPATABILITY used on the page. By the context, I deduced that it seems to be something similar to the English word COMPATIBILITY, is that right? Is it a cognate from another language? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.250.81.140 (talk • contribs).

 * The word was misspelled. The correct word is compatibility. – Doug Bell talk•contrib 19:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

While we're on the compatability section, my understanding is that the Microsoft JVM was incompatible because it was not in fact Java. Sun sued Microsoft and prevented them from distributing it because the Microsoft extend and absorb strategy amounted to an infringement of Sun's trademark. Either way, Java is no longer part of Windows in the same way that a hard disc isn't - it's up to the manufacturer to include it with their product as they see fit (and almost all do include it as standard).

As an aside, the MS "Java" 1.1 was faster than the subsequent Java versions, though more restricted eg programmable icons are a big improvement on later versions, and audio quality is much better too. Stephen B Streater 16:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Advantages section
The tone of the article seems a bit negative to me. To ensure a NPOV, I suggest adding an advantages section.

Some possible advantages to include are: ((Supporting evidence in doubled brackets like this is not intended for the main article))
 * With modern internet connections, applet download time is quick compared to loading complex applications off a local disc. ((For example, my home internet is 4Mb/s, so a 50kB applet downloads in a fraction of a second. This compares with many seconds to start Word on my 3GHz PC))
 * Java applets cache in most web browsers so that the applet will be quick to load when returning to a web page.
 * Java allows real time applications. ((This "playerless" live video codec would not be easy in Javascript using Ajax: Live video demo served from UK so may not give full 320x240x25fps when viewed in US))
 * Java bytecode makes the source code harder to reverse engineer, so complex commercial projects are more attractive. ((For example, this video editing and publishing package, made by my own company))
 * Java applets can be made to work on "all" versions of Java, rather than the latest plug-in version only. ((See above examples))
 * Java applets can run without any security approval from the user - you don't need to trust the software author. ((This is not unique to Java applets, but is still an important advantage))
 * Cross platform. It is simple to make applets which work on PC, Mac and Linux

It's probably worth mentioning some more disadvantages too. I suggest:
 * The Java applet can only access the server it came from
 * The Java applet usually has no access to the local machine
 * Java has bugs, which need to be worked around. Different versions have different bugs.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stephen B Streater (talk • contribs).

I agree the article is negative. Really, the article is quite poor, there is a lot to be added. There are definitely things that can be done with applets that can't be done (or can't be done well) with the other technologies listed. Eventually, if nobody else gets to this I will probably fix the article, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Feel free to jump in and improve it.

BTW, to respond to the disadvantages you listed:
 * Restricting access to the originating server is part of the sandbox model. A signed applet can access anywhere.  The server can be configured to perform the operations on other servers for the applet, thus maintaining the sandbox model while allowing the applet to access other servers using its originating server as a proxy.
 * No access to the local machine is also part of the sandbox. A signed applet can access the machine if granted that permission.
 * Sure Java has bugs--so does the browser and the other technologies that can be used instead of applets. I'm not sure the current state of applets is any worse than the other issues web developers need to deal with.

However, I would add one other disadvantage:
 * Applets require the Java plugin, which isn't available by default on all browsers.

– Doug Bell talk•contrib 14:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I'd forgot to mention that Java applets have more capabilities if signed (a double edged sword!). If I get to update the the article, I'll include this important fact. Stephen B Streater 16:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * "With modern internet connections, applet download time is quick compared to loading complex applications off a local disc. ((For example, my home internet is 4Mb/s, so a 50kB applet downloads in a fraction of a second. This compares with many seconds to start Word on my 3GHz PC))"
 * BULLSHIT download time may be quick but unless the JVM is already in cache its load time is significant. and i'd like too see an applet as capable as word that loaded faster than word.
 * Of course, after the first applet, the rest load quickly. I suppose you can make the same complaint about browsing a Web page since the first time you browse a page the browser has to start up and initialize, although I suspect the JVM is going to be slower starting up than the browser.  A browser written in Java won't have the applet delay as the JVM is already running, and any browser that starts up the JVM as part of it's initialization will also not have a delay running an applet.  After the first applet, bandwidth is probably the limiting factor, so I think the point Stephen makes still applies. – Doug Bell talk•contrib 17:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just an incidental point: on Windows, the JVM startup time seems to depend on what is in the Java web cache. Empty your Java web cache, and things will start a lot quicker. If you use Java a lot, or leave your machines on all the time, the startup time doesn't affect you very much. Also, Java 1.5 seems to use all its CPU redrawing its logo at the beginning. If you switch this off (a programmer option), have the applet cached, and have the JVM loaded, things are pretty fast! So perhaps a disadvantage could be the unpredictability of user time on start-up. Stephen B Streater 10:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I still consider "compact applets start faster than bloatware like word" to be a dubious advantage at best. Has anyone ever seen an applet even half as complex as word?! Plugwash 10:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you mean badly written, I'd have to agree. An applet I have been developing, FORscene, is used for reviewing, logging, editing and publishing of video for TV broadcast. In a sense, this is word processing for video, and video is more complex than text. Adding more features will not impact that much on the applet size, as the codec infrastructure take most of the space. So perhaps we could debate whether this is half as complex as Word. Stephen B Streater 10:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * "Java applets cache in most web browsers so that the applet will be quick to load when returning to a web page."
 * Again assumes download time is the limiting factor and not things like JVM startup time and time for the applet code itself to go through its initilisation sequences.

 * "Java allows real time applications. ((This "playerless" live video codec would not be easy in Javascript using Ajax: Live video demo served from UK so may not give full 320x240x25fps when viewed in US))"
 * True java is going to be faster than scripting languages.

 * "Java bytecode makes the source code harder to reverse engineer, so complex commercial projects are more attractive. ((For example, this video editing and publishing package, made by my own company))"
 * Tried JAD lately? decompilers for bytecode systems like java and .net are way way more effective than those for native code!
 * Yes - if you have the right tools, it is easier to see what the code does. Of course, with a modern language, the structure makes it easier to understand how it works, too! Stephen B Streater 22:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * "Java applets can be made to work on "all" versions of Java, rather than the latest plug-in version only. ((See above examples))"
 * True

 * "Java applets can run without any security approval from the user"
 * True

 * "Cross platform. It is simple to make applets which work on PC, Mac and Linux"
 * This applies to all java code, not just applets.

 * Applets biggest problem though imho is the lack of an interface to allow untrusted code very limited access to the users system (like the classes java web start makes availible in javax.jnlp). Plugwash 17:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd find this very useful too. Most of our users are not allowed to trust us - they work on locked down systems within big organisations. Of course, if the Java web cache worked, our video editing application could store the video on the disc without direct access. Stephen B Streater 22:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I've put something in the article. I've tended to leave out the advantages and disadvantages which cancel each other out (ie something which may be an advantage and a disadvantage, or something which has a work round), and the more contentious ones too. Stephen B Streater 20:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Compatibility section
I'm planning a major reworking of this section. Most of the issues here are (or could be) discussed in disadvantages section. Microsoft Java 1.1 has been replaced by Java 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5 (5.x). MS Java is not legally Java, resulting in a trademark case and the effective banning of sales of MS Java some years ago. In practice the issues concerning MS Java are more to do with its limited functionality eg no programmable icons and limited sound quality, rather than incompatibility issues. Finally, although Java Webstart has its advantages, it requires user permissions, and contrary to what is implied here, it is not necessary in practice for almost all applications. Stephen B Streater 11:31, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The main issue with the MSJVM is that the sun vs ms settlements killed its development but did not immediately stop its distribution (it did eventually). This meant a HUGE number of IE deployments were made with an extremely old JVM and if you wan't compatibility with it you effectively have to stick to the horrible java 1.1 with no swing (unless you wan't your users to have to download a huge jar).

 * And the lack of the ability for unsigned applets to save files or use the clipboard (with user permission ofc) is undoubtablly an extremely major limitation. Plugwash 11:55, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that the MSJVM issue should be borne in mind - some major broadcasters in the UK still use it on their standard configuration. We support it at a cost of a few percent in applet size - in a world where internet speed increased 100% in the last year. Most of the code in a complex applet is in its internals, not calls to the Java libraries. If you run the applet once per day (and have it running all day), downloading a few Mbits once over a broadband connection once is an irrelevance. In practice, it doesn't take much effort to make something work on all Java versions. As part of the tidy up, we could add this to the disadvantages section though, as it cannot be ignored.

 * The sandbox model, which limits file access, is already referred to in point 5 of the disadvantages. I can make this clear that it includes (in particular) file access. Stephen B Streater 13:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Has compatibility has been a major obstacle in adopting Java applets? This is not my experience - do you have any sources you can cite for this?

 * I think this more closely reflects reality for the first sentence of the compatibility section:

 * For example, Microsoft's Internet sExplorer, the most popular web browser since late 1990s, used to ship with Microsoft's own JVM as the default. The MSJVM had some extra non-Java features added which, if used, would prevent MSJVM applets from running on Sun Java (but not the other way round). Sun sued for breach of Trademark, as the point of Java was that there should be no proprietary extensions and that code should work everywhere. Development of MSJVM was frozen by a legal settlement, leaving many users with an extremely outdated Java virtual machine. Later, in October 2001, MS stopped including Java with Windows, and for some years it has been left to the computer manufacturers to ship Java independently of the OS. Most new machines now ship with official Sun Java.

 * What do you think? Stephen B Streater 14:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Added this, with a couple of refinements. Stephen B Streater 09:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing cleanup tag
I'm thinking of removing the cleanup tag. This article is a lot more complete than previously, and organic updates will probably be enough to sustain it. Stephen B Streater 15:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed tag. Stephen B Streater 08:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Access permissions
I've copied this discussion from the Java Web Start talk pages. Stephen B Streater 08:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The article lists some advantages over applets, but I was wondering if there are any disadvantages. Is it true, for example, that Java Web Start programs cannot run without the user giving permission? In contrast, applets (like Clesh should run automatically. Stephen B Streater 21:08, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * well testing with a java web start app i wrote (http://www.p10link.net/~plugwash/picsim.jnlp) it seems in firefox i get the "open with" dialog and in IE (xp but not sp2) it just opens immediately. I don't have XP SP2 handy to try it in. Plugwash 22:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I ran your example Web Start program on my Mac (OS X) and it starts running without a problem. But if I try "save", it pops up a permissions box, and if I refuse, it doesn't save or load eg "load is not possible due to security restrictions". In other words, untrusted code does not have access to the file system.
 * There is an option which says, effectively, "always trust this code", but if I don't select this and trust the code, it never saves. I think your code can save because you have said to trust it. So, unless you can save something on my Mac without me trusting you, I suggest we change the words in the Java applet entry "from untrusted code" to "from trusted code". Stephen B Streater 02:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * No the apps code is still running untrusted, allowing a java web start app access to a single file is like uploading a single file for a website. the website is still untrusted even though you let it have a specific file. Plugwash 13:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * There is a difference, though I can see that it may be more a difference in quantity than quality. I'll explain what I mean. If you go to the Clesh guest account, you run an applet where you can "save" data or "load" it (in fact it is stored on our server). In practice, no dialog box comes up asking for permission, and you don't have to trust me to load and save - or at all in fact.
 * With your example, following your explanation, I know enough about Web Start to know that I don't have to trust you very much to save a file - a malicious application could eventually fill my disc and stop my machine working though. Before your explanation, I just said "No" to the big scary box. So I can see that, technically, I don't have to trust you very much (if I have perfect knowledge about Java Web Start and how it works), but in practice, a normal web user who didn't trust you may not use this feature just in case it was dangerous.
 * I see the applet version is qualitatively similar because a user still in principle has to know that Java applets are safe, but it is quantitavely different because his machine will be configured by default to work in the applet case but not the the Web Start case. So if the Clesh guest account were to run in Java Web Start and save to the local disc, lots of people would refuse to use it (or not be allowed to by their company IT department guidelines).
 * So in conclusion: if the question is whether disc access requires trust, given that a Web Start program could fill the disc and break my computer, if I don't trust it at all, I shouldn't allow it disc access. However, not much trust is required, though typical users may not know this. The default configuration of popping up a scary box makes a lot of difference in practice. The applet requires no trust. I think this difference should be reflected in some way, though if the only thing a malicious program can do is write a big file, this should also be reflected. Stephen B Streater 14:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant links
I think some of the links are irrelvant. Specifically to various links to examples and possibly the java virtual machine page. If no one objects I might delete some of them. (Perhaps leaving one example as a reference). Alternatively one could list various examples separately. (Alexwright 22:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

I removed the links to random examples of java applets. Many were dead and some seemed to have a definite air of advertising about them, and added a link to suns demonstration examples (these include source code which the original links didn't seem to which make them somewhat more useful). Thinking about it the link to the java virtual machine should probably stay to respond to the "what exactly is a java applet and why isn't this working" line of reasoning.

THe links removed are shown below in case someone wanted to selectively include some of them with less effort.

 * Demo applet of a software library for logistic route optimization (VRPTW)
 * Some mathematics applets, at MIT
 * Java Applet Web Testing
 * Video editing/publishing applet from Forbidden Technologies
 * JPowered.com for prebuilt applets
 * Applet to application conversion tool
 * clipstream Java streaming audio applet
 * Internet Relay Chat (IRC) Java applet

(Alexwright 21:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

 * Realised link was already there (Alexwright 21:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

 * I think it is better to upload some screen shoots because these links really die amazingly fast. This also filter out many advertisement - like stuff because (unless released by the software authors) a screen shoot is under free license only when the software also is. Audriusa (talk) 12:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Signed applets
I think there should be something about signed applets, which run outside the JVM standard sandbox. Look at this signed applet example --88.161.150.94 21:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree, there needs to be some info on Signed Applets.
 * Here's some more info on signed applets:
 * http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Security/Signed/
 * And here's an article about the creation of signed applets:
 * http://www.developer.com/java/data/article.php/3303561
 * jarsigner documentation from Sun, has useful information about signed applets:
 * http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/tooldocs/win32/jarsigner.html

 * Can anyone verify that signed applets are able to open up connections and act as servers? Serialized 19:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Mention that Java applets are on the verge of extinction?
I think it would be appropriate to mention in this article that Java applets nowadays are generally not considered to be a useful technique in web design? Also state why such techniques as javascript and flash have grown more popular. 84.217.134.191 16:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I added a sentence to that effect and this JavaWorld link: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-07-2001/jw-0706-webstart.html Cmccormick8 (talk) 03:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Java Logo.svg
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Java applets in Wikipedia
A strategic proposal has been submitted to allow Java applets in Wikipedia. It contains interesting discussion and a number of applet examples. Maybe some material may be migrated into this article as well. The discussion is also evolving very interestingly Audriusa (talk) 09:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Alternatives
I think that JavaFX can be also an alternative to java applet.--PhoneixS (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It may be, and Java Web Start also. These are from the same company so less interesting. But of course you can add. Audriusa (talk) 21:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I have added the MIT Curl as it is widely used in major corp's, a fact unknown outside perhaps Gartner Group, as it is used by Paisley div of Thomson Reuters financials and competes directly with s/w from IBM, Siemens and other major ISV's. Most information now in Japanese at www.curlap.com ; Curl was once evaluated as alternative to AIR and Silvelight in RIA, but had applets since first introduced in MIT spin-off. Curl features now present in Java 8 include closures, but Curl LISP-like macros remain distinctive : Curl applets have has signing options for the past few releases ( currently also in version 8.) In the interest of not abetting monopoly behavior by either Oracle or Microsoft, please retain this as an alternative ... I am not aware of any JavaFX code with similar penetration in Fortune 200, especially in banking. The Paisley Div of TR is best known for audit software used by some of the remaining global 4 audit firms ( And formerly used by Andersen at Enron ! See web archives on past customer conferences.) 142.162.44.93 (talk) 08:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Security Issues
I find it hard to believe there is no mention of the numerous viruses and trojans that exploit security flaws in the java platform. You can get viruses/trojans simply by visiting a seemingly innocuous website that has a java applet on it. Darktangent (talk) 09:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It is now covered that there are multiple reports on finding and closing security holes, same as with any other more complex system. The Calendar bug has been already referenced. However I doubt if any Java virus or trojan have ever managed to spread massively through the world. Audriusa (talk) 12:35, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Security issues such as these change rapidly; more exploits are found, they're patched, it's a continual cycle and very difficult to keep up-to-date with. By the time wikipedia is aware of how an exploit works, it's most likely been patched in a newer version, or about to be patched.  Giftiger Wunsch   [TALK]  12:45, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Jars vs classes
Not much mention is given to the method by which applets are embedded on web pages. On my computer, I experience some slowdown from the decompression of a jar file, vs the instant initialization of a class file. However, Jars download much quicker because they're compressed. This speed curve should be graphed somehow. 75.170.45.99 (talk) 04:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This depends on both connection speed and processor performance. On my laptop, it takes 0.018 s to unzip an average applet (time unzip neuron.jar, applet size 41K compressed) and 0.268s to download it (time wget http://ultrastudio.org/upload/Neuron-1.0a-372480bd-cfbc-30b2-8a0f-184648212b0c.jar), so I am not sure if any slowdown because of decompression should be noticeable at all Audriusa (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC).

Lawsuit
I doubt the lawsuit between Oracle and Google or the Open Handsets Alliance belongs here. As of my understanding it's in no way related to Java applets, which are - ditto as of my understanding - just an ordinary Java program with a special entry point. Maybe that would fit better into Java (programming language), JVM or so? --88.67.217.103 (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Kurnik link
The "game collections" linking to the page "Kurnik" seems inappropriate. You don't expect a page about a specific Polish gaming website when you click on "game collections" and this page doesn't even mention the word Kurnik. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.190.253.146 (talk) 12:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Embed nonstandard?
The article says "A non standard  element can be used with Mozilla family browsers." I realize this was probably true when it was written, but  is in the HTML5 draft standard, and that should probably be mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 16:02, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been deprecated in HTML 4 and is standard again (added back) in HTML 5. The article has been corrected. Thanks for pointing this out. Audriusa (talk) 11:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Example
i tried the example i cant get it to work. Every time it tries to load the java applet it crashes my web browser. all i see is "A Java applet example Here it is:________" I know i have java installed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.230.138.227 (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

um wut?
The introduction seems deliberately to obscure the distinction between compiled and interpreted languages. The implication that Java programs function in any way like C++ programs inside the computer is simply false. In this context the lede is reminiscent of an advertisement. Foogus (talk) 22:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I've removed the unref sentence and the advert tag. Didn't look like an advert to me anyway. —S MALL  JIM   10:17, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

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Depreciation of the Java Applet API
The whole article ignores that as of 2017 the technology behind java applets is dead. Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have dropped npapi support and AFAIK there is no way to run an applet in a popular modern browser.

Maybe the article should be even rewritten in past tense - "A Java applet *was* a small application...", "Applets *were* written..." and so on. Emergie (talk) 08:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I have done this. The deprecation is referenced and the head is in the past tense.Rick Jelliffe (talk) 00:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

 * and I have done it MORE!  The entire article, with the exception of the security section, is now in the past tense. Calumapplepie (talk) 23:49, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

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Security section POV problems
The security section has serious POV issues: the author seems to be determined to state that Java applets are perfectly secure, and that the push for signing them was silly and unnecessary. I don't have the energy to track down who did this, or why, nor fix it. I redid the tenses in the rest of the article and did some heavy copyediting, but I'm done for the day.

The new section should ideally cite articles about specific vulnerabilities and their impact, as well as how they were exploited. We need to find those articles about how much of a security nightmare applets were now, before they are slain by bitrot. The audience of this article will now be young internet historians learning about the wild world of the old net: we need to give them further reading materials on the fall of applets. Calumapplepie (talk) 23:54, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Java applet