text:
Talk:Fatherland

China
Chinese do not refer to their country as "Fatherland", at least not in recent (since the fall of Qing Dynasty) history, 祖国 is often used in conjunction with "母亲" (mother).

Point of View
This article is pretty far from the neutral point of view right now. Use of the word "fatherland" (or rather, its cognates in languages like German and Russian--though Russia also has "motherland") certainly does not by itself imply that anyone using it is an ethnic nationalist or even slightly supports ethnic nationalist views. The claim that it does imply that is, frankly, silly.

I'm not sure how to fix the article, because I'm not sure why we need an article about this term. --LMS

 * So delete it. I merely thought it was interesting to note which nationalities see their homelands as masculine or feminine.  If that interest is biased, blow this article (and Motherland) away.  However, I would appreciate it if you would tell me what non-neutrality I am showing -- am I for or against fatherlands?

Well, maybe there is a good reason to have an article called "fatherland" (and "motherland"? Didn't see that one); I'm waiting to hear one, and that's why I didn't just delete it.

What struck me as biased is the simple declaration, without further ado, that use of the word "fatherland" necessarily reflects an ethnic nationalist view. Why think so? It's not obvious to me. The fact that nationalists have used cognates of the term does not mean that only nationalists use the term or that its use indicates deeply-felt nationalism. Perhaps it often does; but surely, sometimes it doesn't.

And then, if you're not going to declare that, or if you're going to say that sometimes the use of the term reflects nationalism, that just by itself seems like pretty slender material on which to construct an encyclopedia article.

But! Surely there is a lot that can be said about the very notion of a fatherland and a motherland, and surely there has been a great deal of research into that by political scientists, historians, and/or linguists. Maybe you could do some research into that and report the results? --LMS

I'm pretty sure this is not right -- after all, what about the Latin patria, patriae? Maybe it's just that throughout human history humans have referred to their ancestors, hence lands of their ancestors? The fact that these terms were coopted in new ways by ethnic nationalists is hardly a reason to start a page. JHK

As a Russian, I will have to note that there is a small problem with translation here. Russian does have a term Otchizna, which can be translated as "father-place." However, the more often used term is Rodina, which means "birth-place". Both of these words are of the female "gender" (nouns have a gender in Russian - male, female or neutral.) There is no word that literally means "motherland," although such terms as "Mother Earth" are sometimes used.

"Fatherland" is a nationalist concept? I still don't see it.

Here's the article that Cunctator restored (and which I moved here):

A fatherland is a nationalist concept that sees the nation to which one belongs as a paternal figure.

Groups that refer to their homeland as a "father" or associate it primarily with paternal concepts include

 * Romans, as patria, the rootword for patriotism
 * the Basque, particularly the Basque Fatherland and Liberty (Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna , ETA) organization
 * the Germans, as das Vaterland (Note, however, that "das" is grammatically neuter; das Vaterland is "the land of my father," not "the land that is my father." Die Heimat (the homeland) is grammatically feminine, as is "die Muttererde" (Mother Earth).
 * I do not understand this note. What do you want to say with it? In German the gender of a composite noun is allways that of the last word: das Land => das Mutterland, das Vaterland, ...
 * the last word is the basis of the word the first discripes it better (ad an other signification).
 * In Germany the word Vaterland is in my point of view oldstylish - so even when in former times it wasn't nationalistic it becomes now that connotation

 * "Fatherland" is a nationalist concept?

The term "fatherland" is used, like "homeland" and "motherland" to refer to nations. It is thus a nationalist concept.

How is it not a nationalist concept? --TheCunctator Cunc -- chill out and think about the fact that the concept existed before the rise of the kind of nationalism you're talking about. It was a fairly neutral term until the 19th century or so, which is why the article just didn't work as written. --JHK

Sorry, I´m to lazy to read throug Nationalism rigth now. But "nationalist" usually has a negative touch, whereas "fatherland" sometimes only refers to your origin or alike. --Vulture

The fact that "fatherland" is used to refer to nations surely does not imply that it is a "nationalist" concept. One might just as well infer that, since "Satan" is used to refer to Satan, it is therefore a Satanic concept; or, by the same token, that "God" is a divine concept, that "slug" is a slimy concept, or that "butterfly" is a pretty concept

The concept of nationalism doesn't have a negative touch at all, that's completely a personal POV. 74.64.22.128 (talk) 19:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

My response was not meant to imply that I was heated in any way. The italicization of "not" (which I did worry about, by the way) was meant to merely imply that it wasn't clear to me what the arguments against that claim were.

When you say "fairly neutral", what do you mean?

Was "fatherland" actually used before the 19th century? (I don't have an OED account, so I can't just check. If someone can check "fatherland", "homeland", and "motherland", that would be great.)

We should also check the word "nation".

The nationalism entry currently refers to the concept developed in the 19th century--that doesn't mean that nationalism didn't exist before them, in some sense.

Any use of the terms "fatherland", "motherland", "homeland", etc. are now inflected, whether deliberately or not, by the theories of nationalism laid out over the last 150 years.

I'd think it would be uncontrovertial to say that "fatherland" is "nationalist"--after all, both refer to geo-socio-political entities, using words associated with heredity--"father" and "natus" (birth). (But I understand your point.)

I'm thinking that the "nationalism" entry would benefit from a discussion of precursors to the formalized nationalism of the 19th century.

The ethnic nationalism, romantic nationalism entries attempt to carefully explain why "nationalist" has negative implications. Just because the term has negative implications in vernacular use should not preclude its use.

For many people, "fatherland", "motherland", and "homeland" have negative implications. They are certainly not neutral terms--any terms that refer to social constructs cannot be. --TheCunctator

According to my dictionary, the german "Vaterland" is used since the 12th century with the meaning "native country". An adjective "vaterländisch" is used since the 18th century, meaning something like patriotic or nationalistic. By the way, german "Mutterland" (motherland) refers to a mother country in contrast to it´s colonies. --Vulture

This article probably should have been left deleted: it continues to be, as far as I can tell, original research on the part of some complete nonexperts from Wikipedia. I would, by the way, enjoy being proven wrong: find some scholarly source for any information about the notion of a fatherland (or a motherland). --LMS

Larry, it's certainly a difficult concept and one which is going to be difficult to deal with adequately from a coherent NPOV. I don't however think we should shy away from the task. It is precisely this difficulty which should make it (ultimately) a valuable addition to Wikipedia. sjc

Your point is very well taken. But, sjc, I'm not saying that we should shy away from the task. Re-read what I wrote: no one has responded to that point yet! It seems to me that we are, collectively, attempting to formulate a theory and do some research on the meaning of the concept, and on the linguistics of cognates of the word "fatherland." Wikipedia is not set up to do such research. Now, I have no doubt that dissertations have been written about the linguistics of "Vaterland," and socio-linguists, or whomever, have really studied this sort of thing in depth. But I don't see that this article has benefitted in the slightest from such research. --LMS

Equally your points are taken,Larry. And I do see that this is into the realms of the (largely) unfathomed. But this is for me what makes Wikipedia such an interesting project, that often large and unshapely miasmas of information and misinformation can coalesce into something strange and beautiful. With work we will get there! sjc

 * no one has responded to that point yet!

Which point? Is it
 * "Fatherland" is a nationalist concept? I still don't see it.

That's not a point, that's an assertion. It seems to be based on the conception that "nationalist" means "anyone using it is an [ethnic] nationalist or even slightly supports [ethnic] nationalist views", where "ethnic nationalist" and "nationalist" are derogatory terms. Am I correct?

That conception is a misconstrual. "Nationalist", in this context, means "of nationalism", where "nationalism" is "the political ideology in which the state derives political legitimacy in some way from its population."

In the same way, "hard drive" is a computing term and "transcription" is a linguistic or genetics term.

Is it disputable that "nation" is a nationalist concept?

It is certainly the case that "fatherland" is in line with that ideology. "Fatherland" only has meaning in the sense that a country can be defined by its ethnic population (the forefathers). There's a reason that the United States is never refered to as the fatherland. Note that the United States may be refered to as the homeland, which denotes a difference in the forms of nationalism in the United States and Germany.

Long time since I've visited the page, but I thought it would be worthwhile to reply to a question above: yes, it seems pretty obvious to me that "nation" isn't necessarily a nationalist concept, any more than "race" is a racist concept, or "democracy" is a democratic concept. What would it mean to call "nation" a nationalist concept? That's not clear to me at all. Does it mean that anyone using it seriously is thereby a nationalist? No, we can think of plenty of counterexamples. Does it mean that the concept reflects or suggests that anyone is a nationalist? Not necessarily, though as a matter of historical fact, of course there's a connection between the concepts "nation" and "nationalism." The moral of the story is, careful not to impute controversial philosophical views to people just because they happen to use certain words. It doesn't always follow. (Carnap made this point in an essay I was re-reading recently--"Empiricism, Semantics, and Ontology"; he said that just because he and many others use the language of numbers and sets, that doesn't imply that they are realists with respect to numbers and sets.) --Larry_Sanger

Hmm, on this page it says "compare motherland", but motherland redirects back to fatherland. - Kimiko 22:49 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Why don't you just change it to say "Fatherland" is a term used sometimes from a nationistic perspective and sometimes, just as a term for one's country? It seems to me that what's really being strove for here is that to say its a term of nationalism isn't entirely accurate, but neither is a flat denial of such a statement. So reach a compromise and tell the truth: is not one or the other, its both. I don't see why any article has to be deleted, just have it reach the same "neutrality" of the majority of Wikipedia's article. Or am I an idiot.

Spanish
Every Spanish country refers to the word "fatherland" as "patria." Not just Argentina and Peru. I don't know why you have only Argentina and Peru up there. I'm changing that if nobody objects. 74.64.22.128 (talk) 19:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Not only that, we refer to Spain as "Madre Patria" which would be "mother fatherland". David13579 (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Basque
Removed: * the Basque, particularly the Basque Fatherland and Liberty (Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna, ETA) organization

Euzkadi or Euskadi etimologically means "group of Basques". It was coined by the end of 19th century by Sabino Arana. There are those who say that the -di suffix is not suitable for people, but Arana wouldn't let grammatical tradition stop him. There is no mention of "fathers" in "Euzkadi". The Basque word for "fatherland" is aberri, another neologism by Arana from a presumed *ab-, "ancestor". No "father", again.

NPOV dispute
This article is eurocentric. I.e. it has a european (and european language-speaking, e.g. US, Australia, Brazil, etc.) bais. It should contain detail of the concept in african, and asian cultures, etc..
 * You're free to add those things, of course. Mackensen (talk) 15:40, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

About the French "fatherland" translation
Yes, in french you would say "Patrie" (with the father meaning latin root), but you would also say "la mère patrie", which mixes both mother- and fatherland concepts... did any one said this was simple ?

Vaterland not used in Germany?
''The term Vaterland was heavily used in Nazi propaganda. As a result, the term became indelibly associated with Nazis, and has not been used in German since the end of World War II unless one wishes to make an explicit reference to the Nazi government.''

Does the current official German national anthem (third stanza of Das Lied der Deutschen) not begin: "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit/für das deutsche Vaterland"? Even if it is rarely sung, I doubt that on all (or even most) occasions when it is that the performer "wishes to make an explicit reference to the Nazi government." The article Das Lied der Deutschen also makes no reference to any controversy regarding the words Vaterland or fatherland.

--

Vaterland is in use and in most cases without this explicit reference. It is not heard every day, but it is by no means an unusual word. The word was even in use in the GDR. 217.235.102.36 14:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

--

''The term Vaterland was heavily used in Nazi propaganda. As a result, the term became indelibly associated with Nazis, and has not been used in German since the end of World War II unless one wishes to make an explicit reference to the Nazi government.''

This statement is completely wrong. I deleted it. I am a German and the word "Vaterland" is never used in reference to the Nazis, though it is true that it was not used that often because of the Nazis' excessive abuse of this word.

Joining Mother-, Father- and Homeland
Is there any reason for not combining the three articles? Brallan 14:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * while these terms and their equivalents may be interchangeable in other languages, Fatherland and Motherland have specific political connotations in English.130.64.158.99 (talk) 03:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Poland-ojczyzna
the polish word for fatherland/motherland, "ojczyzna" is a feminine noun, and therefore is more associated with motherland than fatherland. There seems to be no fatherland concept in poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitek (talk • contribs) 18:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Homeland usage in US
In a section on the Nazi connotation of the use of the word "fatherland" in English, immediately after a sentence connecting the English usage of "motherland" to the Soviet Union it is stated: "Homeland is the latest version of the trend, currently popular in the United States." Latest version of the trend, as in Nazi fatherland, communist motherland, American homeland. Give me a break. I'm removing the statement. Strikehold (talk) 08:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Groups that refer to their native country as a "fatherland"
This list of countries is too long to be called "Groups". It would rather appear that Fatherland is in common use, and Motherland is used by "Groups". I think this article is horribly biased.

In most countries, Fatherland is not inherently nationalistic, but rather national (patriotic). Obviously nationalists use the word for their purposes, but the word in itself has no Nazi-like connection. If we followed that argument, "God save the Queen" would also be nationalistic, same as "God bless America".

The information found here should best be put in an English dictionary. It is only valid for English language, but tries to generalize for the whole world, misinforming the reader.

156.62.3.26 (talk) 01:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, it breaks the NPOV rule and should be rewritten.MilkStraw532 (talk) 19:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

e.g. in Hermann Broch's novel The Sleepwalkers
Can someone please explain why this novel is singled out in the lead of this article? It makes it look like this term "Vaterland" is so fringe, that you have to find obscure novels as evidence that it is a thing.--345Kai (talk) 21:31, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fatherland


text:
Talk:Fair use

Too technical
I'm putting the template back because of this one sentence. "Once these factors were codified as guidelines in 17 U.S.C. § 107, they were not rendered exclusive." An IP added the template on the 19th, and User:Trovatore removed it on the 22nd. Let there be improvements to the wording, and then let that person remove the tag. This makes useful progress while the tag can be ignored if you want to. (It does not show up on the printed page.) But there was no improvement of the wording during those twelve days. There should usually be either discussion or some significant reworking of the article before removing a tag. Happy editing! — Cp i r al Cpiral  19:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not too technical and never should have been added in the first place. --Trovatore (talk) 06:45, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In any case, that tag should basically never be in mainspace, because it's addressed to editors, not readers. I don't agree with it on this article, period, but I've moved it to the talk page as a compromise. --Trovatore (talk) 06:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The lead could really use some improvements on how it presents fair use. Even the first meaning is using a rather complicated way to say that fair use allows use of copyrighted material without the permission of author.Belorn (talk) 09:33, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just made an attempt at improving the lead. I've also made a series of edits over the last few days that I hope have made the article more understandable to non-experts. I'd be interested to hear what others, particularly non-experts, think of the article as it is now. PacificWonderland (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the lede is poorly done. Three sentences in, the article cites case law, which reinforces the belief that the article is too technical. Whoever wrote this article was apparently ignorant of the fact that Wikipedia articles are intended for a general audience of laypeople. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a textbook on the law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.1.203.20 (talk) 11:10, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't the Philippines have fair use?
Well I checked the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines, and under the section linked, it states:

Would it be alright to state this in the article? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:06, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually a lot of countries have it. I recently added to the external links The Fair Use/Fair Dealing Handbook, which basically just compiles all the statutes that explicitly say "fair use" or "fair dealing". I don't know if we need to have an exhaustive list in the article, but we could make a more general statement to make it less U.S.-centric, and use the handbook as a reference. —mjb (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair use essentially means that you are allowed to use a work in certain situations without the permission from the copyright holder. US copyright law has a section entitled fair use as well as other sections which allows you to use works in specific situations, for example 17 U.S.C. 120 (which says that it is permitted to take photos of copyrighted buildings and that the owner of the building may demolish or change the building) or 17 U.S.C. 109 which says that you may sell or exhibit a copyrighted work (such as a book or a painting) which has legally been sold to you. The copyright laws of many (all?) other countries also allow you to use copyrighted works without the permission from the copyright holder, but the word "fair use" is not necessarily used in the law, and the situations in which you may use a copyrighted work may be different, possibly overlapping with "fair use", the right to demolish a building and the right to sell a book which you have legally bought. It is not clear exactly what you mean with "fair use" outside the United States or the Philippines as the US and Philippine copyright laws only use this term for certain uses of copyrighted works but not for other uses. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Common misunderstandings
The section on Common misunderstandings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#Common_misunderstandings has WP:RS AND WP:OR problems.

Most significantly, it makes the assumption that these are common misunderstandings. Who says that these are common misunderstandings? We need a source for that. --Nbauman (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As someone who practices in the field, most of these are in fact common misunderstandings. That sort of thing likely could be cited.  But it seems to me that your quarrel, however, is with the very notion of "common misunderstandings", which is a sort of FAQ-style approach that is not exactly encyclopedic -- more of a WP:STYLE issue really.  If so, could the section be largely preserved as written with a better prefatory paragraph, that did include citations to copyright FAQ/misunderstanding-type articles?  Or is it the whole idea of writing something like this list that's problematic? --Lquilter (talk) 16:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the whole list is problematic, as it's just not encyclopedic. We have to focus on what fair use is and what has been written about it. That's not to say that we can't try to ensure that certain ideas get communicated in ways that head off common misunderstandings. But as it stands, it's basically a "some say" or "many mistakenly think" that fair use means whatever, which violates WP:WEASEL. However I'd be OK with linking to such a FAQ if it's on a noncommercial, somewhat authoritative site (preferably not a law firm). —mjb (talk) 22:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I also think there's a separate problem with one item on that list. "Fair use interpretations are unique and limited" seems, from the description, to be an accurate conception, not a misconception. Not sure how to reword that to make the statement elegantly equal a misconception. "Fair use interpretations are generic and universally applicable"? "Fair use interpretations are universal and transferrable"? Or am I missing what that statement means to say. Joe (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

There has been no discussion on this topic for over 18 months now and no substantive discussion since the tag was first applied 21 months ago. While I do not see an endorsement of the current format, I also do not see a clear consensus for how or even whether to rewrite it. The page history in the meantime shows some implicit endorsements. Routine editing can and should continue (and the discussion here should certainly continue) but I am removing the tag on the article in the meantime. Rossami (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I too would like to see this section reframed to be more encyclopedic. As a start, though, I'm going to attempt to add sources supporting the assertion that these items are misunderstandings and to clean up the style of the writing. There is an appendix in Reclaiming Fair Use by Aufderheide and Jaszi called "Myths and Realities About Fair Use." I'll start with that (in fact I already have).PacificWonderland (talk) 04:55, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm going to try moving some parts of the "Misunderstandings" section into relevant places in the rest of the article, which I believe will help address the issues listed above. PacificWonderland (talk) 20:24, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've just finished moving the content from the "Misunderstandings" section into the rest of the article, and I've deleted the section. I hope this is consistent with the various desires expressed above. PacificWonderland (talk) 20:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Fair Use : Canada
The new copyright law has changed, permits fair use. This part should be updated.Mighty.Yggdrasil (talk) 16:57, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Canada is still on a fair dealing regime. It's broader and better now, certainly, but it's not the same as fair use. --Coolcaesar (talk) 19:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Redirect Vandalism
Someone or something has vandalized many of the redirects that should point to this page, including "Fair_use_policy," "Fair_use_doctorine," and "Fair_use_doctrine," and "Fair_Use." The last three were made to point to Dumplings (film), the first to Bandwidth cap. In each of these cases, a bot appears to be the culprit. Is there any way to find other broken redirects and fix them?

Thanks for your help on this.

TI. Gracchus (talk) 04:58, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I've used the "what links here" function to find all of the broken links pointing to the movie and the article on bandwidth, but there may have been other links similarly disrupted. Is there any way to find them?

TI. Gracchus (talk) 05:19, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Fair use and fair dealing are not so easily differentiated
There seems to be a difference of opinion over the degree to which fair dealing and fair use overlap, and what makes them different. The more common viewpoint seems to be that fair use, the general topic of this article, must be defined as being whatever United States law says, because that's where the term originates. By this reasoning, every other nation's laws can be dismissed as not being "actual" or "full" fair use, even when fair use is the exact term used in those countries, and even when they allow for more flexibility than the rigid standard thought to be at the core of fair dealing.

Yet, as I mentioned above, The Fair Use/Fair Dealing Handbook, a compilation of national statutes which explicitly mention the terms fair use or fair dealing, claims that the definitions of those terms vary quite a bit worldwide, and in some countries have changed (e.g., in Canada by judicial precedent) to the point where it seems to me that the choice of whether to call it fair dealing or fair use is mainly a product of the statutes' historical origin, not so much arising from substantial differences or any international agreement on what the terms mean.

I propose we rework both the fair use and fair dealing articles to reflect this broader perspective, and also to reduce redundancy. I'd like to get some feedback, first, though. What do you think? —mjb (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Historically there's been quite a difference; fair use was a broader doctrine than fair dealing in any country that used either of those two terms. Just in the past 5 years "fair dealing" has evolved in Canada to be broader than it was in the past; and fair use has been adopted in several other countries.  To me, I think we need an article on the legal doctrines, country by country.  It would be less important then whether we then have one consolidated article on fair use/fair dealing -- probably either approach is defensible. --Lquilter (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Wait, I've tried to interpret the South Korean Copyright Law...
I want to insert several game posters and movie posters into the Korean Wikipedia that doesn't seem to be in there yet. However, I noticed that there was some copyright law that is allowed in the US, but not in Korea, that decides of the image uploading. Can someone tell me why this seems to not be allowed in the Korean Wikipedia? Here's the Korean copyright law website. --> http://www.copyright.or.kr/eng/laws-and-treaties/copyright-law/chapter01.do HanSangYoon (talk) 10:18, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * We have no jurisdiction over the south Korean Wikipedia, or expertise in Korean copyright law - we are the English Wikipedia. You need to contact somebody at ko.wikipedia.org. BMK (talk) 10:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Fair Use as a Defense and NPOV
Current text claims that the argument that "fair use is a right" is the result of a confusion. It cites to an article by von Lohmann noting that it is generally understood as a defense, but the article isn't really addressing the question of "right" vs. "defense," and certainly doesn't label everyone on the other side as "simply confused." (That's definitely not what von Lohmann meant, he's the first one who explained to me the argument about Fair Use as a right, the implication being that judges could independently find fair use without any argument in a briefing from the defense.)

EFF's Fair Use FAQ provides a more neutral POV: https://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php

5. Is Fair Use a Right or Merely a Defense?

Lawyers disagree about the conceptual nature of fair use. Some lawyers claim that fair use is merely a defense to a claim of copyright infringement. Although fair use is often raised as a defense, many lawyers argue that fair use can also be viewed as having a broader scope than this. If fair use is viewed as a limitation on the exclusive rights of copyright holders, fair use can be seen as a scope of positive freedom available to users of copyrighted material.

Absent any objections, I recommend we change this section to a more NPOV: this is an ongoing dispute, so there's no need to just call names and say one side of the dispute must be confused because one source has been identified in favor of the other side. --Thomas B♘ talk 21:05, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Fair use. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131202223552/http://centerforsocialmedia.org/fair-use/related-materials/codes/code-best-practices-fair-use-scholarly-research- to http://centerforsocialmedia.org/fair-use/related-materials/codes/code-best-practices-fair-use-scholarly-research-
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090325115704/http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html to http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#pub

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 03:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

For the first edit, what's in the article now works (looks like it's been changed since Cyberbot II's edit). For the second edit, the archive link looks fine, but the circular seems not to appear in the article any longer. Setting "checked" to "true."PacificWonderland (talk) 17:16, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Fair Use is not a term exclusive to the US
I was shocked to see that the opening sentence to this article claims fair use as a US concept only. We have fair use in the UK (the UK copyright service has a page headed 'fair use' https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use). I think the page should change to fairly cover fair use country by country, or the title should be changed to 'fair use in the US'. Lindosland (talk) 10:39, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Fair use comic book.
This comic book was designed by legal experts, and has interesting commentary on fair use/public domain: https://law.duke.edu/cspd/comics/ Huggums537 (talk) 00:14, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Fair Use in Spoiling Reviews
Are reviews that spoil everything considered fair use since it is a substitute, meaning you do not need to buy the product, just read or see this then you understand, I read movie reviews and Wikipedia to avoid paying for the movie, music and other materials since it spoils it and therefore i save a few bucks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thetechwizard21 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Source and word of the USA Fair Use
The United States has one or more Websites that talk about fair use, and give a bulleted or numbered list of things that it should include. As that is considered "public domain", or property of it citizens, and since that is about as close to official as you can get – other than Supreme Court rulings – how about simply copy-pasting that? Misty MH (talk) 03:09, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Those sites either tend to quote verbatim from the relevant statute, Section 107, or they provide oversimplified explanations. Furthermore, their style is often inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Even if they are worthy of copying and pasting into a Wikimedia Foundation project, the better destination for wholesale verbatim copying would be Wikiquote.
 * For high-quality, nuanced and concise summaries in plain English of most American legal doctrines, it is normally necessary to resort to private legal treatises like Nimmer on Copyright which are protected under copyright law. Unfortunately, the best writers rarely work for free. --Coolcaesar (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

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"Transformative-use defense" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Transformative-use defense. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 5 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. KamranBhatti4013 (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there a fair use form to make asking for permission easier rather than dealing with the headaches of DMCA and court battles to determine if something qualifies under fair use?
If people ask for permission to review something, it should be standardized that yes I got permission for fair use and be able to post that document in the video so the holder cannot take down the video say on you-tube. A formal process of filling out fair use that way if anyone asks then you can explain yourself in further detail. It is not enough to say its under fair use because that claim is ambiguous. Slinkyw (talk) 15:50, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about asking Wikipedia for permission, or asking the copyright owner for permission? Copyright infringement is a civil tort, so the question is sort of like asking whether you can lightly stab someone in order to demonstrate how you want to stab them, to determine if it is a permissible stabbing. BD2412  T 18:15, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "permission for fair use" is an oxymoron, anyway. By definition, fair use is a type of use that is not infringing despite not having obtained permission to use. TJRC (talk) 18:18, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2022
5.217.119.237 (talk) 00:25, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 00:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Fair use


text:
Talk:Show Me Love (film)

The name revisited

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A close call. But I do not think there is a consensus to move at the current time. --PBS (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there still consensus for keeping the film title at Fucking Åmål? Or is it better if the film is at "Show Me Love"? (I prefer the latter, as all English speaking countries use that title - In no way, though, do I intend to sideline the original title) WhisperToMe (talk) 22:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

With no response I added this to requested moves. IMO the previous move discussion used poor rationale (Like "I like this title better" stuff) WhisperToMe (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Are there any other examples of Swedish films retaining their original title on Wikipedia? I support a move. -Duribald (talk) 03:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose The previous discussion is here. Considerable evidence of English usage of this title is given. I would prefer not to move; there's nothing wrong with having intriguing titles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not protesting any "intrigue" of the old title - It happens that this is an English-language encyclopedia and that the title used in Anglophone countries is "Show Me Love" - Even though "Fucking Åmål" is an English phrase, it is used in Scandinavia. Remember that Naming conventions (use English) exists. What has changed since 2006 is an increased emphasis on Reliable sources. In order to say "The original title is more popular" - for instance - one will need a reliable source. Blogs, most fansites, etc. generally do not cut it. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Assuming article is accurate about English markets, I süppört. Llamasharmafarmerdrama (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your decision to say there is no consensus, I dispute it. If you look at User:Iamaleopard's posts, he has less than 100 edits - He hasn't been on there very long, and there may be concerns about newly-registered users (he registered 10 January 2008). This, and the fact that the other opposing person, Septentrionalis, has not given any rebuttal to my response makes me see consensus. If the opposing sides do not respond to criticism of their positions, does this mean they no longer maintain their stances? Does this mean their stances no longer should be considered? I might move it anyway because only one person who has had more than 100 edits opposed it this time. The ratio of posts (oppose v. support) is 2 to 4 or 33% to 66% - But if you remove Iamaleapord's post from consideration it becomes 1 to 4 or 20% to 80%. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am going to oppose based on the Swedish title being in English, so I think it meets WP:UE criteria. Iamaleopard (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. Just because the Swedish title is a bunch of English phrases doesn't mean that it is the film's "English name" - all of the versions of the film actually in English use the title "Show Me Love" - The versions of the film using the original title are NOT in English. WhisperToMe (talk) 10:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly! The title is, by the way, taken from a line in the movie: "Det är bara för att du bor i Fucking Åmål!". This is clearly not English. -Duribald (talk) 10:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Support based on English distribution the English name will be more familiar. --PBS (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Lamaleopard is not an established editor. This means we have 4 votes to 1 for a move. Of those who have actually contributed to the article 2 are for a move and no one is against. -Duribald (talk) 17:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * When I made the call I looked at Iamaleopard but it does not seem like a sock puppet account which is the reason for ignoring opinions of IP addresses or new user accounts without much history. I'll put  a compromise to you, If Septentrionalis puts a rebuttal to you position in the next 24 hours, I'll consider his reply, If I think he is justified then I'll alter my swing vote to his side but if he does not reply within 24 hours, or if I disagree with his arguments, I'll move the page. Acceptable? --PBS (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That works. :) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved. I'll leave you to tidy up the lead etc. --PBS (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

On References
At long last there are two really good academic sources for information about this film, lengthy articles by 2 Swedes, Griffiths and Rosenberg. I have used their articles as a basis for the recent addtions/re-writes. --Punavuori (talk) 22:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC) After a quick search, I have not found these on the web; but I came across them in Scandinavian academic (paper!) journals (but good news: the articles are in English! For full details see footnotes): the Griffiths article looks at the small-town Åmål aspect and the actual filming, and the Rosenberg article looks at the lesbian theme: both mention quite a bit about the public and media response. It was after reading these excellent articles that I was inspired to contribute to this page :) --Punavuori (talk) 12:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do they appear on the web? I would love to read them (if they were ever printed in English) WhisperToMe (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Stating the patently obvious?
I had removed the patently obvious statement: "All of the English-language releases of the film use the title Show Me Love, which lacks the English-language swear word "fucking" as seen in the Swedish title." But you could equally state that the English-language releases fail to mention the town of Åmål. Yet, as Griffiths and Rosenberg mention in their articles (see footnotes), it was reported that outside Scandinavia most reporters and the general public alike thought that Åmål was the name of a person, especially when Åmål gets written as Amal, it is an Arabic/Herbrew name. As I had now added an explanation of why the the name of the film was changed I think it is no longer necessary to state the patently obvious. --Punavuori (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Soundtrack
Why is "Superstar" by Broder Daniel missing from the list? It's most certainly in the movie, but maybe it's missing from the released soundtrack? If so where to put it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.202.223.55 (talk) 23:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Titles
the section "Titles" used to end with this

Viking'kid' Mavrick - little boy

That doesnt follow the formatting of the rest of the section, and more importantly doesnt make any sense. It is complety unclear what it refers to.

I have deleted it but am mentioning it here in case anyone knows what the intended meaning was and wishes to re-enter it in clear way.

Brunk500 (talk) 22:15, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Explanation?
Is there any info on why the movie was actually filmed elsewhere then the actual town of Amal it's supposed to be about?

Why wasn't it filmed in Amal but in the neighboring town of Trollhattan? In such case, why not change the title to Fucking Trollhattan?

 * Because the film studio was located in Trollhättan. Compare to how many movies are filmed in Hollywood/LA, only a fraction is set there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 191.235.217.189 (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Show Me Love (film)


text:
Persian language

Persian, also known by its endonym Farsi (فارسی ), is a Western Iranian language belonging to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subdivision of the Indo-European languages. Persian is a pluricentric language predominantly spoken and used officially within Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan in three mutually intelligible standard varieties, respectively Iranian Persian (officially known as Persian), Dari Persian (officially known as Dari since 1964), and Tajiki Persian (officially known as Tajik since 1999). It is also spoken natively in the Tajik variety by a significant population within Uzbekistan,  as well as within other regions with a Persianate history in the cultural sphere of Greater Iran. It is written officially within Iran and Afghanistan in the Persian alphabet, a derivative of the Arabic script, and within Tajikistan in the Tajik alphabet, a derivative of the Cyrillic script.

Modern Persian is a continuation of Middle Persian, an official language of the Sasanian Empire (224–651 CE), itself a continuation of Old Persian, which was used in the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE). It originated in the region of Pars (Persia) in southwestern Iran. Its grammar is similar to that of many European languages.

Throughout history, Persian was considered prestigious by various empires centered in West Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia. Old Persian is attested in Old Persian cuneiform on inscriptions from between the 6th and 4th century BC. Middle Persian is attested in Aramaic-derived scripts (Pahlavi and Manichaean) on inscriptions and in Zoroastrian and Manichaean scriptures from between the third to the tenth centuries (see Middle Persian literature). New Persian literature was first recorded in the ninth century, after the Muslim conquest of Persia, since then adopting the Perso-Arabic script.

Persian was the first language to break through the monopoly of Arabic on writing in the Muslim world, with Persian poetry becoming a tradition in many eastern courts. It was used officially as a language of bureaucracy even by non-native speakers, such as the Ottomans in Anatolia, the Mughals in South Asia, and the Pashtuns in Afghanistan. It influenced languages spoken in neighboring regions and beyond, including other Iranian languages, the Turkic, Armenian, Georgian, and Indo-Aryan languages. It also exerted some influence on Arabic, while borrowing a lot of vocabulary from it in the Middle Ages.

Some of the world's most famous pieces of literature from the Middle Ages, such as the Shahnameh by Ferdowsi, the works of Rumi, the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, the Panj Ganj of Nizami Ganjavi, The Divān of Hafez, The Conference of the Birds by Attar of Nishapur, and the miscellanea of Gulistan and Bustan by Saadi Shirazi, are written in Persian. Some of the prominent modern Persian poets were Nima Yooshij, Ahmad Shamlou, Simin Behbahani, Sohrab Sepehri, Rahi Mo'ayyeri, Mehdi Akhavan-Sales, and Forugh Farrokhzad.

There are approximately 130 million Persian speakers worldwide, including Persians, Lurs, Tajiks, Hazaras, Iranian Azeris, Iranian Kurds, Balochs, Tats, Afghan Pashtuns, and Aimaqs. The term Persophone might also be used to refer to a speaker of Persian.

Classification
Persian is a member of the Western Iranian group of the Iranian languages, which make up a branch of the Indo-European languages in their Indo-Iranian subdivision. The Western Iranian languages themselves are divided into two subgroups: Southwestern Iranian languages, of which Persian is the most widely spoken, and Northwestern Iranian languages, of which Kurdish and Balochi are the most widely spoken.

Name
The term Persian is an English derivation of Latin Persiānus, the adjectival form of Persia, itself deriving from Greek (Περσίς), a Hellenized form of Old Persian Pārsa (𐎱𐎠𐎼𐎿), which means "Persia" (a region in southwestern Iran, corresponding to modern-day Fars). According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term Persian as a language name is first attested in English in the mid-16th century.

, which is the Persian word for the Persian language, has also been used widely in English in recent decades, more often to refer to Iran's standard Persian. However, the name Persian is still more widely used. The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has maintained that the endonym  is to be avoided in foreign languages, and that Persian is the appropriate designation of the language in English, as it has the longer tradition in western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity. Iranian historian and linguist Ehsan Yarshater, founder of the Encyclopædia Iranica and Columbia University's Center for Iranian Studies, mentions the same concern in an academic journal on Iranology, rejecting the use of  in foreign languages.

Etymologically, the Persian term derives from its earlier form Pārsi (Pārsik in Middle Persian), which in turn comes from the same root as the English term Persian. In the same process, the Middle Persian toponym Pārs ("Persia") evolved into the modern name Fars. The phonemic shift from to  is due to the influence of Arabic in the Middle Ages, and is because of the lack of the phoneme  in Standard Arabic.

Standard varieties' names
The standard Persian of Iran has been called, apart from Persian and Farsi, by names such as Iranian Persian and Western Persian, exclusively. Officially, the official language of Iran is designated simply as Persian (فارسی, fārsi).

The standard Persian of Afghanistan has been officially named Dari (دری, dari) since 1958. Also referred to as Afghan Persian in English, it is one of Afghanistan's two official languages, together with Pashto. The term Dari, meaning "of the court", originally referred to the variety of Persian used in the court of the Sasanian Empire in capital Ctesiphon, which was spread to the northeast of the empire and gradually replaced the former Iranian dialects of Parthia (Parthian).

Tajik Persian (форси́и тоҷикӣ́, forsi-i tojikī), the standard Persian of Tajikistan, has been officially designated as Tajik (тоҷикӣ, tojikī) since the time of the Soviet Union. It is the name given to the varieties of Persian spoken in Central Asia in general.

ISO codes
The international language-encoding standard ISO 639-1 uses the code  for the Persian language, as its coding system is mostly based on the native-language designations. The more detailed standard ISO 639-3 uses the code  for the dialects spoken across Iran and Afghanistan. This consists of the individual languages Dari and Iranian Persian. It uses  for Tajik, separately.

History
In general, the Iranian languages are known from three periods: namely Old, Middle, and New (Modern). These correspond to three historical eras of Iranian history; Old era being sometime around the Achaemenid Empire (i.e., 400–300 BC), Middle era being the next period most officially around the Sasanian Empire, and New era being the period afterward down to present day.

According to available documents, the Persian language is "the only Iranian language" for which close philological relationships between all of its three stages are established and so that Old, Middle, and New Persian represent one and the same language of Persian; that is, New Persian is a direct descendant of Middle and Old Persian. Gernot Windfuhr considers new Persian as an evolution of the Old Persian language and the Middle Persian language but also states that none of the known Middle Persian dialects is the direct predecessor of Modern Persian. Ludwig Paul states: "The language of the Shahnameh should be seen as one instance of continuous historical development from Middle to New Persian."

The known history of the Persian language can be divided into the following three distinct periods:

Old Persian
As a written language, Old Persian is attested in royal Achaemenid inscriptions. The oldest known text written in Old Persian is from the Behistun Inscription, dating to the time of King Darius I (reigned 522–486 BC). Examples of Old Persian have been found in what is now Iran, Romania (Gherla), Armenia, Bahrain, Iraq, Turkey, and Egypt. Old Persian is one of the earliest attested Indo-European languages.

According to certain historical assumptions about the early history and origin of ancient Persians in Southwestern Iran (where Achaemenids hailed from), Old Persian was originally spoken by a tribe called Parsuwash, who arrived in the Iranian Plateau early in the 1st millennium BCE and finally migrated down into the area of present-day Fārs province. Their language, Old Persian, became the official language of the Achaemenid kings. Assyrian records, which in fact appear to provide the earliest evidence for ancient Iranian (Persian and Median) presence on the Iranian Plateau, give a good chronology but only an approximate geographical indication of what seem to be ancient Persians. In these records of the 9th century BCE, Parsuwash (along with Matai, presumably Medians) are first mentioned in the area of Lake Urmia in the records of Shalmaneser III. The exact identity of the Parsuwash is not known for certain, but from a linguistic viewpoint the word matches Old Persian pārsa itself coming directly from the older word *pārćwa. Also, as Old Persian contains many words from another extinct Iranian language, Median, according to P. O. Skjærvø it is probable that Old Persian had already been spoken before the formation of the Achaemenid Empire and was spoken during most of the first half of the first millennium BCE. Xenophon, a Greek general serving in some of the Persian expeditions, describes many aspects of Armenian village life and hospitality in around 401 BCE, which is when Old Persian was still spoken and extensively used. He relates that the Armenian people spoke a language that to his ear sounded like the language of the Persians.

Related to Old Persian, but from a different branch of the Iranian language family, was Avestan, the language of the Zoroastrian liturgical texts.

Middle Persian

The complex grammatical conjugation and declension of Old Persian yielded to the structure of Middle Persian in which the dual number disappeared, leaving only singular and plural, as did gender. Middle Persian developed the ezāfe construction, expressed through ī (modern e/ye), to indicate some of the relations between words that have been lost with the simplification of the earlier grammatical system.

Although the "middle period" of the Iranian languages formally begins with the fall of the Achaemenid Empire, the transition from Old to Middle Persian had probably already begun before the 4th century BC. However, Middle Persian is not actually attested until 600 years later when it appears in the Sassanid era (224–651 AD) inscriptions, so any form of the language before this date cannot be described with any degree of certainty. Moreover, as a literary language, Middle Persian is not attested until much later, in the 6th or 7th century. From the 8th century onward, Middle Persian gradually began yielding to New Persian, with the middle-period form only continuing in the texts of Zoroastrianism.

Middle Persian is considered to be a later form of the same dialect as Old Persian. The native name of Middle Persian was Parsig or Parsik, after the name of the ethnic group of the southwest, that is, "of Pars", Old Persian Parsa, New Persian Fars. This is the origin of the name Farsi as it is today used to signify New Persian. Following the collapse of the Sassanid state, Parsik came to be applied exclusively to (either Middle or New) Persian that was written in the Arabic script. From about the 9th century onward, as Middle Persian was on the threshold of becoming New Persian, the older form of the language came to be erroneously called Pahlavi, which was actually but one of the writing systems used to render both Middle Persian as well as various other Middle Iranian languages. That writing system had previously been adopted by the Sassanids (who were Persians, i.e. from the southwest) from the preceding Arsacids (who were Parthians, i.e. from the northeast). While Ibn al-Muqaffa' (eighth century) still distinguished between Pahlavi (i.e. Parthian) and Persian (in Arabic text: al-Farisiyah) (i.e. Middle Persian), this distinction is not evident in Arab commentaries written after that date.

New Persian
"New Persian" (also referred to as Modern Persian) is conventionally divided into three stages:
 * Early New Persian (8th/9th centuries)
 * Classical Persian (10th–18th centuries)
 * Contemporary Persian (19th century to present)

Early New Persian remains largely intelligible to speakers of Contemporary Persian, as the morphology and, to a lesser extent, the lexicon of the language have remained relatively stable.

Early New Persian
New Persian texts written in the Arabic script first appear in the 9th-century. The language is a direct descendant of Middle Persian, the official, religious, and literary language of the Sasanian Empire (224–651). However, it is not descended from the literary form of Middle Persian (known as pārsīk, commonly called Pahlavi), which was spoken by the people of Fars and used in Zoroastrian religious writings. Instead, it is descended from the dialect spoken by the court of the Sasanian capital Ctesiphon and the northeastern Iranian region of Khorasan, known as Dari. The region, which comprised the present territories of northwestern Afghanistan as well as parts of Central Asia, played a leading role in the rise of New Persian. Khorasan, which was the homeland of the Parthians, was Persianized under the Sasanians. Dari Persian thus supplanted Parthian language, which by the end of the Sasanian era had fallen out of use. New Persian has incorporated many foreign words, including from eastern northern and northern Iranian languages such as Sogdian and especially Parthian.

The transition to New Persian was already complete by the era of the three princely dynasties of Iranian origin, the Tahirid dynasty (820–872), Saffarid dynasty (860–903), and Samanid Empire (874–999). Abbas of Merv is mentioned as being the earliest minstrel to chant verse in the New Persian tongue and after him the poems of Hanzala Badghisi were among the most famous between the Persian-speakers of the time.

The first poems of the Persian language, a language historically called Dari, emerged in present-day Afghanistan. The first significant Persian poet was Rudaki. He flourished in the 10th century, when the Samanids were at the height of their power. His reputation as a court poet and as an accomplished musician and singer has survived, although little of his poetry has been preserved. Among his lost works are versified fables collected in the Kalila wa Dimna.

The language spread geographically from the 11th century on and was the medium through which, among others, Central Asian Turks became familiar with Islam and urban culture. New Persian was widely used as a trans-regional lingua franca, a task aided due to its relatively simple morphology, and this situation persisted until at least the 19th century. In the late Middle Ages, new Islamic literary languages were created on the Persian model: Ottoman Turkish, Chagatai Turkic, Dobhashi Bengali, and Urdu, which are regarded as "structural daughter languages" of Persian.

Classical Persian
"Classical Persian" loosely refers to the standardized language of medieval Persia used in literature and poetry. This is the language of the 10th to 12th centuries, which continued to be used as literary language and lingua franca under the "Persianized" Turko-Mongol dynasties during the 12th to 15th centuries, and under restored Persian rule during the 16th to 19th centuries.

Persian during this time served as lingua franca of Greater Persia and of much of the Indian subcontinent. It was also the official and cultural language of many Islamic dynasties, including the Samanids, Buyids, Tahirids, Ziyarids, the Mughal Empire, Timurids, Ghaznavids, Karakhanids, Seljuqs, Khwarazmians, the Sultanate of Rum, Turkmen beyliks of Anatolia, Delhi Sultanate, the Shirvanshahs, Safavids, Afsharids, Zands, Qajars, Khanate of Bukhara, Khanate of Kokand, Emirate of Bukhara, Khanate of Khiva, Ottomans, and also many Mughal successors such as the Nizam of Hyderabad. Persian was the only non-European language known and used by Marco Polo at the Court of Kublai Khan and in his journeys through China.

Use in Asia Minor
A branch of the Seljuks, the Sultanate of Rum, took Persian language, art, and letters to Anatolia. They adopted the Persian language as the official language of the empire. The Ottomans, who can roughly be seen as their eventual successors, inherited this tradition. Persian was the official court language of the empire, and for some time, the official language of the empire. The educated and noble class of the Ottoman Empire all spoke Persian, such as Sultan Selim I, despite being Safavid Iran's archrival and a staunch opposer of Shia Islam. It was a major literary language in the empire. Some of the noted earlier Persian works during the Ottoman rule are Idris Bidlisi's Hasht Bihisht, which began in 1502 and covered the reign of the first eight Ottoman rulers, and the Salim-Namah, a glorification of Selim I. After a period of several centuries, Ottoman Turkish (which was highly Persianised itself) had developed toward a fully accepted language of literature, and which was even able to lexically satisfy the demands of a scientific presentation. However, the number of Persian and Arabic loanwords contained in those works increased at times up to 88%. In the Ottoman Empire, Persian was used for diplomacy, poetry, historiographical works, literary works, and was taught in state schools, and was also offered as an elective course or recommended for study in some madrasas.
 * Learning to Read in the Late Ottoman Empire and the Early Turkish Republic, B. Fortna, page 50;"Although in the late Ottoman period Persian was taught in the state schools...."
 * Persian Historiography and Geography, Bertold Spuler, page 68, "On the whole, the circumstance in Turkey took a similar course: in Anatolia, the Persian language had played a significant role as the carrier of civilization.[..]..where it was at time, to some extent, the language of diplomacy...However Persian maintained its position also during the early Ottoman period in the composition of histories and even Sultan Salim I, a bitter enemy of Iran and the Shi'ites, wrote poetry in Persian. Besides some poetical adaptations, the most important historiographical works are: Idris Bidlisi's flowery "Hasht Bihist", or Seven Paradises, begun in 1502 by the request of Sultan Bayazid II and covering the first eight Ottoman rulers.."
 * Picturing History at the Ottoman Court, Emine Fetvacı, page 31, "Persian literature, and belles-lettres in particular, were part of the curriculum: a Persian dictionary, a manual on prose composition; and Sa'dis "Gulistan", one of the classics of Persian poetry, were borrowed. All these title would be appropriate in the religious and cultural education of the newly converted young men.
 * Persian Historiography: History of Persian Literature A, Volume 10, edited by Ehsan Yarshater, Charles Melville, page 437;"...Persian held a privileged place in Ottoman letters. Persian historical literature was first patronized during the reign of Mehmed II and continued unabated until the end of the 16th century.
 * Chapter Imperial Ambitions, Mystical Aspirations: Persian learning in the Ottoman World, Murat Umut Inan, page 92 (note 27), edited by Nile Green, (title: The Persianate World The Frontiers of a Eurasian Lingua Franca); "Though Persian, unlike Arabic, was not included in the typical curriculum of an Ottoman madrasa, the language was offered as an elective course or recommended for study in some madrasas. For those Ottoman madrasa curricula featuring Persian, see Cevat İzgi, Osmanlı Medreselerinde İlim, 2 vols. (Istanbul: İz, 1997),1: 167–69."

Use in the Balkans
Persian learning was also widespread in the Ottoman-held Balkans (Rumelia), with a range of cities being famed for their long-standing traditions in the study of Persian and its classics, amongst them Saraybosna (modern Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina), Mostar (also in Bosnia and Herzegovina), and Vardar Yenicesi (or Yenice-i Vardar, now Giannitsa, in the northern part of Greece).

Vardar Yenicesi differed from other localities in the Balkans insofar as that it was a town where Persian was also widely spoken. However, the Persian of Vardar Yenicesi and throughout the rest of the Ottoman-held Balkans was different from formal Persian both in accent and vocabulary. The difference was apparent to such a degree that the Ottomans referred to it as "Rumelian Persian" (Rumili Farsisi). As learned people such as students, scholars and literati often frequented Vardar Yenicesi, it soon became the site of a flourishing Persianate linguistic and literary culture. The 16th-century Ottoman Aşık Çelebi (died 1572), who hailed from Prizren in modern-day Kosovo, was galvanized by the abundant Persian-speaking and Persian-writing communities of Vardar Yenicesi, and he referred to the city as a "hotbed of Persian".

Many Ottoman Persianists who established a career in the Ottoman capital of Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul) pursued early Persian training in Saraybosna, amongst them Ahmed Sudi.

Use in Indian subcontinent

The Persian language influenced the formation of many modern languages in West Asia, Europe, Central Asia, and South Asia. Following the Turko-Persian Ghaznavid conquest of South Asia, Persian was firstly introduced in the region by Turkic Central Asians. The basis in general for the introduction of Persian language into the subcontinent was set, from its earliest days, by various Persianized Central Asian Turkic and Afghan dynasties. For five centuries prior to the British colonization, Persian was widely used as a second language in the Indian subcontinent. It took prominence as the language of culture and education in several Muslim courts on the subcontinent and became the sole "official language" under the Mughal emperors.

The Bengal Sultanate witnessed an influx of Persian scholars, lawyers, teachers, and clerics. Thousands of Persian books and manuscripts were published in Bengal. The period of the reign of Sultan Ghiyathuddin Azam Shah is described as the "golden age of Persian literature in Bengal". Its stature was illustrated by the Sultan's own correspondence and collaboration with the Persian poet Hafez; a poem which can be found in the Divan of Hafez today. A Bengali dialect emerged among the common Bengali Muslim folk, based on a Persian model and known as Dobhashi; meaning mixed language. Dobhashi Bengali was patronised and given official status under the Sultans of Bengal, and was a popular literary form used by Bengalis during the pre-colonial period, irrespective of their religion.

Following the defeat of the Hindu Shahi dynasty, classical Persian was established as a courtly language in the region during the late 10th century under Ghaznavid rule over the northwestern frontier of the subcontinent. Employed by Punjabis in literature, Persian achieved prominence in the region during the following centuries. Persian continued to act as a courtly language for various empires in Punjab through the early 19th century serving finally as the official state language of the Sikh Empire, preceding British conquest and the decline of Persian in South Asia.

Beginning in 1843, though, English and Hindustani gradually replaced Persian in importance on the subcontinent. Evidence of Persian's historical influence there can be seen in the extent of its influence on certain languages of the Indian subcontinent. Words borrowed from Persian are still quite commonly used in certain Indo-Aryan languages, especially Hindi-Urdu (also historically known as Hindustani), Punjabi, Kashmiri, and Sindhi. There is also a small population of Zoroastrian Iranis in India, who migrated in the 19th century to escape religious execution in Qajar Iran and speak a Dari dialect.

Qajar dynasty
In the 19th century, under the Qajar dynasty, the dialect that is spoken in Tehran rose to prominence. There was still substantial Arabic vocabulary, but many of these words have been integrated into Persian phonology and grammar. In addition, under the Qajar rule, numerous Russian, French, and English terms entered the Persian language, especially vocabulary related to technology.

The first official attentions to the necessity of protecting the Persian language against foreign words, and to the standardization of Persian orthography, were under the reign of Naser ed Din Shah of the Qajar dynasty in 1871. After Naser ed Din Shah, Mozaffar ed Din Shah ordered the establishment of the first Persian association in 1903. This association officially declared that it used Persian and Arabic as acceptable sources for coining words. The ultimate goal was to prevent books from being printed with wrong use of words. According to the executive guarantee of this association, the government was responsible for wrongfully printed books. Words coined by this association, such as rāh-āhan (راه‌آهن) for "railway", were printed in Soltani Newspaper; but the association was eventually closed due to inattention.

A scientific association was founded in 1911, resulting in a dictionary called Words of Scientific Association (لغت انجمن علمی), which was completed in the future and renamed Katouzian Dictionary (فرهنگ کاتوزیان).

Pahlavi dynasty
The first academy for the Persian language was founded on 20 May 1935, under the name Academy of Iran. It was established by the initiative of Reza Shah Pahlavi, and mainly by Hekmat e Shirazi and Mohammad Ali Foroughi, all prominent names in the nationalist movement of the time. The academy was a key institution in the struggle to re-build Iran as a nation-state after the collapse of the Qajar dynasty. During the 1930s and 1940s, the academy led massive campaigns to replace the many Arabic, Russian, French, and Greek loanwords whose widespread use in Persian during the centuries preceding the foundation of the Pahlavi dynasty had created a literary language considerably different from the spoken Persian of the time. This became the basis of what is now known as "Contemporary Standard Persian".

Varieties
There are three standard varieties of modern Persian:
 * Iranian Persian (Persian, Western Persian, or Farsi) is spoken in Iran, and by minorities in Iraq and the Persian Gulf states.
 * Eastern Persian (Dari Persian, Afghan Persian, or Dari) is spoken in Afghanistan.
 * Tajiki (Tajik Persian) is spoken in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. It is written in the Cyrillic script.

All these three varieties are based on the classic Persian literature and its literary tradition. There are also several local dialects from Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan which slightly differ from the standard Persian. The Hazaragi dialect (in Central Afghanistan and Pakistan), Herati (in Western Afghanistan), Darwazi (in Afghanistan and Tajikistan), Basseri (in Southern Iran), and the Tehrani accent (in Iran, the basis of standard Iranian Persian) are examples of these dialects. Persian-speaking peoples of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan can understand one another with a relatively high degree of mutual intelligibility. Nevertheless, the Encyclopædia Iranica notes that the Iranian, Afghan, and Tajiki varieties comprise distinct branches of the Persian language, and within each branch a wide variety of local dialects exist.

The following are some languages closely related to Persian, or in some cases are considered dialects:
 * Luri (or Lori), spoken mainly in the southwestern Iranian provinces of Lorestan, Kohgiluyeh and Boyer-Ahmad, Chaharmahal and Bakhtiari some western parts of Fars Province, and some parts of Khuzestan Province.
 * Achomi (or Lari), spoken mainly in southern Iranian provinces of Fars and Hormozgan.
 * Tat, spoken in parts of Azerbaijan, Russia, and Transcaucasia. It is classified as a variety of Persian.    (This dialect is not to be confused with the Tati language of northwestern Iran, which is a member of a different branch of the Iranian languages.)
 * Judeo-Tat. Part of the Tat-Persian continuum, spoken in Azerbaijan, Russia, as well as by immigrant communities in Israel and New York.

More distantly related branches of the Iranian language family include Kurdish and Balochi.

The Glottolog database proposes the following phylogenetic classification:

 * Farsic–Caucasian Tat
 * Caucasian Tat
 * Judeo-Tat
 * Muslim Tat (including Armeno-Tat)
 * Farsic
 * Eastern Farsic
 * Aimaq
 * Dari
 * Dehwari
 * Hazaragi
 * Pahlavani
 * Tajikic
 * Bukharic
 * Tajik
 * Judeo-Persian
 * Western Farsi

Phonology
Iranian Persian and Tajik have six vowels; Dari has 8. Iranian Persian has twenty-three consonants, but both Dari and Tajiki have twenty-four consonants. (due to the phonemic merger of /q/ and /ɣ/ in Iranian Persian).

Vowels
Historically, Persian distinguished length. Early New Persian had a series of five long vowels (,, , , and ) along with three short vowels , , and. At some point prior to the 16th century in the general area now modern Iran, and  merged into, and  and  merged into. Thus, older contrasts such as شیر shēr "lion" vs. شیر shīr "milk", and زود zūd "quick" vs زور zōr "strength" were lost. However, there are exceptions to this rule, and in some words, ē and ō are merged into the diphthongs and  (which are descendants of the diphthongs  and  in Early New Persian), instead of merging into  and. Examples of the exception can be found in words such as روشن (bright). Numerous other instances exist.

However, in Dari, the archaic distinction of and  (respectively known as یای مجهول Yā-ye majhūl and یای معروف Yā-ye ma'rūf) is still preserved as well as the distinction of  and  (known as واو مجهول Wāw-e majhūl and واو معروف Wāw-e ma'rūf). On the other hand, in standard Tajik, the length distinction has disappeared, and merged with  and  with. Therefore, contemporary Afghan Dari dialects are the closest to the vowel inventory of Early New Persian.

According to most studies on the subject (e.g., , ), the three vowels traditionally considered long are currently distinguished from their short counterparts  by position of articulation rather than by length. However, there are studies (e.g., ) that consider vowel length to be the active feature of the system, with , , and phonologically long or bimoraic and , , and  phonologically short or monomoraic.

There are also some studies that consider quality and quantity to be both active in the Iranian system (such as Toosarvandani 2004). That offers a synthetic analysis including both quality and quantity, which often suggests that Modern Persian vowels are in a transition state between the quantitative system of Classical Persian and a hypothetical future Iranian language, which will eliminate all traces of quantity and retain quality as the only active feature.

The length distinction is still strictly observed by careful reciters of classic-style poetry for all varieties (including Tajik).

Consonants
Notes:

• /n/ turns to /ŋ/ in words that ن comes before گ ک
 * in Iranian Persian and  have merged into [~ɢ], as a voiced velar fricative  when positioned intervocalically and unstressed, and as a voiced uvular stop  otherwise.

Morphology
Suffixes predominate Persian morphology, though there are a small number of prefixes. Verbs can express tense and aspect, and they agree with the subject in person and number. There is no grammatical gender in modern Persian, and pronouns are not marked for natural gender. In other words, in Persian, pronouns are gender-neutral. When referring to a masculine or a feminine subject, the same pronoun is used (pronounced "ou", ū).

Syntax
Persian adheres mainly to Subject-Object-Verb (SOV) word order. However, case endings (e.g. for subject, object, etc.) expressed via suffixes may allow users to vary word order. Verbs agree with the subject in person and number. Normal declarative sentences are structured as (S) (PP) (O) V: sentences have optional subjects, prepositional phrases, and objects followed by a compulsory verb. If the object is specific, the object is followed by the word rā and precedes prepositional phrases: (S) (O + rā) (PP) V.

Native word formation
Persian makes extensive use of word building and combining affixes, stems, nouns, and adjectives. Persian frequently uses derivational agglutination to form new words from nouns, adjectives, and verbal stems. New words are extensively formed by compounding – two existing words combining into a new one.

Influences
While having a lesser influence from Arabic and other languages of Mesopotamia and its core vocabulary being of Middle Persian origin, New Persian contains a considerable number of Arabic lexical items, which were Persianized and often took a different meaning and usage than the Arabic original. Persian loanwords of Arabic origin especially include Islamic terms. The Arabic vocabulary in other Iranian, Turkic, and Indic languages is generally understood to have been copied from New Persian, not from Arabic itself.

John R. Perry, in his article "Lexical Areas and Semantic Fields of Arabic", estimates that about 20 percent of everyday vocabulary in current Persian, and around 25 percent of the vocabulary of classical and modern Persian literature, are of Arabic origin. The text frequency of these loan words is generally lower and varies by style and topic area. It may approach 25 percent of a text in literature. According to another source, about 40% of everyday Persian literary vocabulary is of Arabic origin. Among the Arabic loan words, relatively few (14 percent) are from the semantic domain of material culture, while a larger number are from domains of intellectual and spiritual life. Most of the Arabic words used in Persian are either synonyms of native terms or could be glossed in Persian.

The inclusion of Mongolic and Turkic elements in the Persian language should also be mentioned, not only because of the political role a succession of Turkic dynasties played in Iranian history, but also because of the immense prestige Persian language and literature enjoyed in the wider (non-Arab) Islamic world, which was often ruled by sultans and emirs with a Turkic background. The Turkish and Mongolian vocabulary in Persian is minor in comparison to that of Arabic and these words were mainly confined to military, pastoral terms and political sector (titles, administration, etc.). New military and political titles were coined based partially on Middle Persian (e.g. ارتش arteš for "army", instead of the Uzbek قؤشین qoʻshin; سرلشکر sarlaškar; دریابان daryābān; etc.) in the 20th century. Persian has likewise influenced the vocabularies of other languages, especially other Indo-European languages such as Armenian, Urdu, Bengali, and Hindi; the latter three through conquests of Persianized Central Asian Turkic and Afghan invaders; Turkic languages such as Ottoman Turkish, Chagatai, Tatar, Turkish, Turkmen, Azeri, Uzbek, and Karachay-Balkar; Caucasian languages such as Georgian, and, to a lesser extent, Avar and Lezgin; Afro-Asiatic languages like Assyrian (List of loanwords in Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) and Arabic, particularly Bahrani Arabic; and even Dravidian languages indirectly especially Malayalam, Tamil, Telugu, and Brahui; as well as Austronesian languages such as Indonesian and Malaysian Malay. Persian has also had a significant lexical influence, via Turkish, on Albanian and Serbo-Croatian, particularly as spoken in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Use of occasional foreign synonyms instead of Persian words can be a common practice in everyday communications as an alternative expression. In some instances in addition to the Persian vocabulary, the equivalent synonyms from multiple foreign languages can be used. For example, in Iranian colloquial Persian (not in Afghanistan or Tajikistan), the phrase "thank you" may be expressed using the French word مرسی merci (stressed, however, on the first syllable), the hybrid Persian-Arabic phrase متشکّرَم motešakkeram (متشکّر motešakker being "thankful" in Arabic, commonly pronounced moččakker in Persian, and the verb ـَم am meaning "I am" in Persian), or by the pure Persian phrase سپاسگزارم sepās-gozāram.

Orthography

The vast majority of modern Iranian Persian and Dari text is written with the Arabic script. Tajiki, which is considered by some linguists to be a Persian dialect influenced by Russian and the Turkic languages of Central Asia, is written with the Cyrillic script in Tajikistan (see Tajik alphabet). There also exist several romanization systems for Persian.

Persian alphabet
Modern Iranian Persian and Afghan Persian are written using the Persian alphabet which is a modified variant of the Arabic alphabet, which uses different pronunciation and additional letters not found in Arabic language. After the Arab conquest of Persia, it took approximately 200 years before Persians adopted the Arabic script in place of the older alphabet. Previously, two different scripts were used, Pahlavi, used for Middle Persian, and the Avestan alphabet (in Persian, Dīndapirak, or Din Dabire—literally: religion script), used for religious purposes, primarily for the Avestan but sometimes for Middle Persian.

In the modern Persian script, historically short vowels are usually not written, only the historically long ones are represented in the text, so words distinguished from each other only by short vowels are ambiguous in writing: Iranian Persian kerm "worm", karam "generosity", kerem "cream", and krom "chrome" are all spelled krm (کرم) in Persian. The reader must determine the word from context. The Arabic system of vocalization marks known as harakat is also used in Persian, although some of the symbols have different pronunciations. For example, a ḍammah is pronounced, while in Iranian Persian it is pronounced. This system is not used in mainstream Persian literature; it is primarily used for teaching and in some (but not all) dictionaries. There are several letters generally only used in Arabic loanwords. These letters are pronounced the same as similar Persian letters. For example, there are four functionally identical letters for (ز ذ ض ظ), three letters for  (س ص ث), two letters for  (ط ت), two letters for  (ح ه). On the other hand, there are four letters that do not exist in Arabic پ چ ژ گ.

Additions
The Persian alphabet adds four letters to the Arabic alphabet:

Historically, there was also a special letter for the sound. This letter is no longer used, as the -sound changed to, e.g. archaic زڤان > زبان  'language'

Variations
The Persian alphabet also modifies some letters of the Arabic alphabet. For example, alef with hamza below ( إ ) changes to alef ( ا ); words using various hamzas get spelled with yet another kind of hamza (so that مسؤول becomes مسئول) even though the latter has been accepted in Arabic since the 1980s; and teh marbuta ( ة ) changes to heh ( ه ) or teh ( ت ).

The letters different in shape are:

However, ی in shape and form is the traditional Arabic style that continues in the Nile Valley, namely, Egypt, Sudan, and South Sudan.

Latin alphabet
The International Organization for Standardization has published a standard for simplified transliteration of Persian into Latin, ISO 233-3, titled "Information and documentation – Transliteration of Arabic characters into Latin characters – Part 3: Persian language – Simplified transliteration" but the transliteration scheme is not in widespread use.

Another Latin alphabet, based on the New Turkic Alphabet, was used in Tajikistan in the 1920s and 1930s. The alphabet was phased out in favor of Cyrillic in the late 1930s.

Fingilish is Persian using ISO basic Latin alphabet. It is most commonly used in chat, emails, and SMS applications. The orthography is not standardized, and varies among writers and even media (for example, typing 'aa' for the phoneme is easier on computer keyboards than on cellphone keyboards, resulting in smaller usage of the combination on cellphones).

Tajik alphabet
The Cyrillic script was introduced for writing the Tajik language under the Tajik Soviet Socialist Republic in the late 1930s, replacing the Latin alphabet that had been used since the October Revolution and the Persian script that had been used earlier. After 1939, materials published in Persian in the Persian script were banned in the country.

Examples
The following text is from Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

title: Persian language


text:
Farsi (disambiguation)

Farsi is the indigenous name or endonym for Persian. It primarily refers to the Persian language.

Farsi may also refer to:
 * something referring to or inhabitant of Fars Province, Iran
 * Persian people
 * Farsi, Afghanistan
 * Farsi District in Herat province, Afghanistan
 * Farsi Island, an Iranian island off the coast of Fars, Iran
 * Farsi village, located in Hormozgan province, Iran
 * Farsi1, a Persian-language TV channel
 * Hijra Farsi, a Hindustani-based argot spoken by transgender communities in India and Pakistan

title: Farsi (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Persian language

Edits
Could you provide precise page numbers (and perhaps quotes) for these sources? - LouisAragon (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't have it right now. If I don't have the quote, then i'll just add another one later that does.--Persian Lad (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

 * So you can’t provide page numbers and/or quotes? If so, your edit fails WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 16:37, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll provide it later. There is no WP:DEADLINE--Persian Lad (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Relation to other languages in the Middle East
Persia was not the only empire in the Middle East to speak an Indo-European language. What is the connection of Farsi to, e.g., Hittite? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Adding Turkic influence on Persian grammar
I think this would be a very relevant and noteworthy addition to this article. Unlike most other Indo-European languages and also Indo-Iranian, persian lacks grammatical gender and they use the same personal prounoun as Turkic people for the third person, "U" Turks use "O". The same goes for the first person. There are also some other things that isn't found in old persian like adjectival agreement and more. Here is a preview of a source supporting this claim: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4030859. Altynordu (talk) 13:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * We must be very careful not to read things into Perry's paper that are not stated there. He well mentions some superficial typological similarity between Turkic languages and Modern Persian, but he actually does not ascribe structural changes like the loss of gender to Turkic influence. The latter is rather seen in more subtle details (please read the full paper).
 * Grammatical gender was already lost in all attested forms of Middle Western Iranian due to the loss of final syllables (a process that has parallels in the history of English), thus before Iranian came into close contact with Turkic languages.
 * The similarity of the personal pronouns (btw nowhere mentioned in the source; are you doing WP:original research?) is entirely fortuitous. E.g. Modern Persian man is a continuation of the Middle Persian oblique form man (direct case: an), which goes back to Old Persian mām (1sg accusative). The latter is in fact a perfect match with Sanskrit mām (also 1sg accusative). –Austronesier (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * To me when I read it I think he very clearly stated the correlation of Persian losing its grammatical gender to a Turkish influence but I may be wrong if you would kindly point out where he doesn’t ascribe the change it would really help.
 * The similarities of the first personal pronouns is my fault I didn’t research it thoroughly enough it just seems like a weird coincidence that the two languages share the first pronouns.
 * I would like your help to know what the third person pronoun was that was used in Middle Persian. I do know that the one used in modern Persian is identical to the one used in Turkic languages and this would suggest an influence but it wouldn’t if it was the same during Middle Persian so if you would help me understand that it would be great. Altynordu (talk) 18:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you actually have full access to Perry's paper? Perry describes in much detail and specifically lists which features of Persian he ascribes to Turkic influence. Loss of grammatical gender is not among them.
 * Please don't do your own research. Historical linguistics is not some kind of amateur pastime that florishes on the talk pages of a user-generated encyclopedia. Cite expert sources, and please only cite them for what they actually say without using them as a starting point for personal musings.
 * But since you're interested, the Middle Persian article has an excellently written (and excellently sourced) grammar section; the personal pronouns are here: Middle_Persian. For more details you can check Skjærvø's chapter in the Routledge volume The Iranian Languages. And while we're at it, I recommend Johanson's Turkic (Cambridge University Press) to get a full picture of Turkic third person "pronouns" (actually, they're distal demonstrative pronouns). –Austronesier (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Enigma
Help! I cannot find a reference for this image. It is claimed as "Fatimid" (but this is extremely unlikely in my opinion, the style is more like 14th century Ilkhanid or Jalayarid) and currently appears in the Arabic miniature article. Can someone confirm that the language of the text above and below the miniature is Persian, rather than Arabic? I would personally bet for a version of the Great Ilkhanid Shahnameh. Any thoughts? Any RS reference? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)  (talk) 07:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Well, I cannot say for sure, because Persian and arabic are technically equal, I could be wrong, but the fact is that (at least) they're kinda the same, I'm gonna google it and I advise you if I found something about it. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 15:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It'd be great if we have reliable sources about it, I definitely don't know how to search, because from what I can tell, there is still no suitable name for this arabic miniature, maybe it really is "Fatimid", anyway, we need (at least) a suitable name for this, otherwise, this edit can't come to no conclusion, and this enigma won't have end, becomin' a endless mystery,i.e, a non-resolved mystery, we soonly need a WP: CORRECT source. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 15:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 19216811 170.81.161.153 (talk) 17:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * hi i just saw the picture i can read small part of it which definitely is persian and you are correct is around 14th but maybe before that because painting isn't like ilkhanid and more like seljuk or ghaznavid perhaps
 * and in black line just above painting isnt much clear but a part of it says "told blad(or blar) to search again and must relieved..." or something like that 5.214.12.160 (talk) 01:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

19216811 170.81.161.153 (talk) 17:44, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Persian language


text:
Frances Abington

Frances Abington (Barton; 1737 – 4 March 1815) was an English actress who was also known for her sense of fashion. Writer and politician Horace Walpole described her as one of the finest actors of their time, and Richard Brinsley Sheridan was said to have written the part of Lady Teazle in The School for Scandal for her to perform.

Early life
She was born Frances Barton (nicknamed "Fanny"), as the daughter of a private soldier. She began her career as a flower girl and a street singer. It was also rumoured that she recited Shakespeare in taverns at the age of 12, along with being a prostitute for a short period to help her family with financial problems. Later, she became a servant to a French milliner. During that time, she learnt about costume and learnt French. Her early nickname, Nosegay Fan, came from her time as a flower girl.

Career
Her first appearance on stage was at Haymarket in 1755 as Miranda in Mrs Centlivre's play, Busybody. She rose to become a principal actor in October 1756 when she was cast as Lady Pliant in The Double Dealerat the Drury Lane. The play's cast also included the stars Hannah Pritchard and Kitty Clive. She also appeared in Ireland, where her Lady Townley (in The Provoked Husband by Vanbrugh and Cibber) was a success. David Garrick convinced her to return to Drury Lane, and they worked together there until his retirement in 1776.

From 1759 onwards she appeared in the bills as "Mrs Abington", following her marriage to her music tutor, the royal trumpeter James Abington. They separated shortly after their marriage as he could not cope with her popularity. They lived separately, with Fanny paying James a small annual stipend to stay away from her. She subsequently had affairs with an Irish MP, Needham, who left her a considerable estate, and William Petty, 2nd Earl of Shelburne. The income from her estate and her stage work made her a wealthy woman.

She remained at the Drury Lane for 18 years, being the first to play more than 30 important characters, notably Lady Teazle (1777) in The School for Scandal.

In April 1772, when James Northcote saw her as Miss Notable in Cibber's The Lady's Last Stake, he remarked to his brother "I never saw a part done so excellent in all my life, for in her acting she has all the simplicity of nature and not the least tincture of the theatrical."

Her wealth and popularity meant she influenced fashion. The press reported on her hair styles: her low hair in The School for Scandal was praised for changing the fashion. Her performance as Kitty in "High Life Below Stairs" put her in the foremost rank of comic actresses and made the mob cap she wore in the role fashionable. It was soon being referred to as the "Abington Cap" on stage and at hatters' shops across Ireland and England.

It was as the last character in Congreve's Love for Love that Sir Joshua Reynolds painted the best-known of his half-dozen or more portraits of her (illustration, left). In 1782 she left Drury Lane for Covent Garden. After an absence from the stage from 1790 until 1797, she reappeared, quitting finally in 1799.

Death
Frances Abington died on 4 March 1815 at her home on Pall Mall, London. She was buried at St James's Church, Piccadilly.

title: Frances Abington