text:
Talk:Drinking game

Suggestions
Let's see some suggestions for drinking games:

 * Waa Oink-Na
 * Fizz-Buzz
 * Matchbox throwing

In fact almost any party game can be adapted to a drinking game format. Wikipedians/Alex

Probably not good precedent to list any game that can suffer an ad hoc conversion to a drinking variant. Better to use "established" variants. In other words, we should not be listing games suggested as drinking games (and certainly not the rules that describe the variation).PilotPrecise 07:13, 11 March 2004 (UTC)

 * Okay, I just added a "Conversion of other games" sub-section, so anything that is normally not a drinking game should not be listed here now. If you feel there is a game that is commonly converted into a drinking game (but normally isn't), throw it into that subsection, with a description. Use the Beer Ball description (is that how beer ball is played? I don't know) as a guide. I think that should work. --Headcase 07:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Um?
So other than to serve as a how-to guide for every low IQ frat boy, why does this article exist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.73.74 (talk) 02:37, August 1, 2005

 * Primarily for those who want to understand idiomatic or cultural references. For example a foreigner or simply someone with a sheltered background might here a joke referring to "drinking games" and want to understand what was meant. (Signing my edit: JimD (talk) 09:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

The difference is, that unlike the sciences you mentioned, there are sciences that have encyclopedic value, drinking games and religion are just useless topics created by simple minded people with too much time on their hands — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.133.136.191 (talk) 04:07, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Um, I've read that people with too much time on their hand tend to comment on articles they have no interest in Robin22 00:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikibooks
I'm not sure about this, but maybe this page (or at least some of the games mentioned in the page) would be better off in Wikibooks. Most of the games I've read about have more of a Wikibooks style of writing than an encyclopediac one. What do you think? --Dangherous 12:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Possibly. Anything that's an explicit "how to" could become a Wikibook. There's a fine line between documenting the rules of something, and explaining how to play something by the rules. I don't see any example of that in this article - but some of the sub articles might. Stevage 12:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Is it really inkeeping with Wikipedia...
...to shamelessly endorse the drink-driving laws at the top of the page? I'm aware it might need justification, so i didn't actually remove the line, but it isn't very neutral to proselytise against drinking to excess, and probably reflects more on the zeitgeist than on objective fact.82.32.83.19 03:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Beersketball merged here
See Articles for deletion/Beersketball. Johnleemk | Talk 07:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Kegball/Sloshball
Shouldn't the entry on Sloshball be linked from this page?

I think there should be an entry on Kegball. (like kickball, except with a keg on second base).

If someone creates the page, I will add rule variations. User:timwhit | 19:21, 09 May 2006 (UTC)

Going to remove a bunch of links
I'm planning on removing all the redlinks and unlinked drinking games from the list of games, since they may or may not actually exist. Anyone against this? --Xyzzyplugh 21:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And, I've removed the redlinks. --Xyzzyplugh 22:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

AfD precedents about drinking games
In the debate on the deletion of Rage Cage (AfD), I dug around and found a whole lot of AfDs on drinking games. I thought I would mention the list is here if anyone finds it useful later. Mango juice talk 01:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

These drinking games articles suck
The problem is that there are no reliable sources on most of them. I could probably nominate them all for deletion on AfD and 90% of them would be gone. Some of them, whoever made them didn't bother listing any sources. I suggest putting more effort into these if you want them to stay. --Xyzzyplugh 21:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I really think that this needs either a complete makeover or gone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Louman7777777 (talk • contribs) 02:28, March 13, 2009

edit
just wanted to explain my edit. I don't think it's right to say these games are usually played at Greek events and pubs, because I have played a ton of drinking games, but I've never once played one at a fraternity, sorority, or pub. I imagine many other people are the same, who like drinking games, but don't tolerate contemporary fraternity culture, and/or would rather not pay bar prices for cheap beer.--Josh Rocchio 15:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Beep test
yeah, so there's this drinking game called a Beep Test, named after the fitness test, that nobody's written an entry for. And it seems like a pretty well-known one for students. anyway...

it lasts an hour and goes like this:

In the first half an hour each person has to drink a pint of beer. In the next 15 mins they have to drink another pint. Next 8 mins... another one. 4 mins. 2 mins. 1 min.

Totalling... an hour! With 6 pints drunk.

So... i thought someone should put it in. Whatevs...

Drink safe now kids. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.129.5 (talk) 03:54, November 14, 2006 (UTC)

Ugghh...
Quite honestly, this is one of the most pathetic articles I have seen on Wikipedia. I have no problem with a drinking game aritcle, but people are just making up stupid games to fill up space. Furthermore far too many examples are given. Even further, many of the examples are written very poorly. I think that all of the examples should be taken out for now and the rest of the article cleaned up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Madris (talk • contribs) 04:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
 * I say remove ALL the "movies"/"television"/"sports"/etc. lists as none of these games can possibly be verified, with the notable exception of "Hi Bob." Anyone can just make up a drinking game for their favourite show or movie. Wavy G 16:52, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But I came here looking for drinking games specifically for television and movies.--Mullon 02:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

List of drinking games
I'm Culling Most of the movies out of the drinking Games Section, streamlining many of the others, and basicly just shrinking it down and cleaning it up to a more manageable level. Churba 22:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm restoring a small section of the movies list(Completely deleted by Tregoweth), and Cutting down the Television section right down. Churba 22:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I've streamlined the list down to a few examples for every explained option. Now, I need a bit of help - I need someone to help re-write the following -

 * Took a stab at it. OscarTheCat3 01:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

- Entertainment media-related drinking games, unlike other drinking games, rely not on the players but upon an outside influence, such as a movie. Instead of a direct competition between players, as one would find in a game of Quarters, an entertainment media-based drinking game becomes solely a competition of endurance, and is often specifically designed that way. These games often also include complex variants, which stipulate different drinks or rates of consumption for different circumstances. Other variations may involve requiring the players to match the type and quantity of drink that the main characters consume.

The mechanics of this type of game are very simple, often relying on the repeated occurrence of something within a movie. Examples include participants drinking each time a character curses, or each time a song breaks out in a Disney movie.

The 40-Year-Old Virgin

 * Consume one shot of liquor each time the word "virgin" is said, each time David mentions Amy, and each time Andy tries on a condom.
 * Consume a drink as quickly as possible during the crazy drinking night, when Andy has sex for the first time, and when he starts singing.
 * If anybody in the group notices the numbers "10" and "16" in that order, e.g. 10:16 p.m., chapter 10 and scene 16, etc., everyone takes a drink.

The Big Lebowski

 * Consume a White Russian every time The Dude drinks a White Russian.
 * Alternatively, drink every time the word "The Dude" is mentioned.
 * Drink whenever the words "fuck", "vagina", "Shut up, Donny", "Let's go bowling" or "the big Lebowski" are spoken.
 * Drink every time Professer Lupin or Jesus is shown, and when nudity is shown (including unseen nudity and drawings).

Paint Your Wagon

 * Drink every time someone says the words "gold", "pardner", or anything that could be construed as a euphemism.
 * Drink every time one of the cast members starts singing.
 * Drink whenever Ben Rumson drinks.

The Boondock Saints

 * Drink every time the word "fuck" is used.
 * Finish an entire drink as fast as possible every time Rocco goes on a rant screaming "fuck" repeatedly.
 * Drink an Irish car bomb when a toilet is dropped and when a character drops through the ceiling.
 * Take a shot of whiskey when Rocco shoots the cat.

 * Comment on the total removal of entertainment-related games: I think there should be a section that mentions this type of game, but that gives no examples. That way, the tendency of editors to start adding their favorites is curbed (can never be eliminated), but the topic is broached. Like others, I came to this article with that topic in mind; unlike many others, I've never played one and do not intend to, but I do find the topic amusing in the abstract, as it's one way that fans comment on clichés within a show. Lawikitejana 08:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * They're mostly certainly mentioned. See thinking games.  hmw  ith   14:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Find The Pint
Find The Pint A game playable in any bar resturant which has alchol was invented in 2007 by GP and Ri-pi.

(deleted game summary)

Could this get published? Just a thought. YellowSnowRecords2 [[WP:
 * Are you serious, man: spitting? Extremely sexy 20:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep spitting along with other pre-decided limits of bodily fluids are accepted Do you like the game? You should play it!! YellowSnowRecords2

 * So you mean urine as well then? Extremely sexy 13:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed yes i meant "Urine" So do you think it should be put in? maybe a new section under disgusting and strange drinking games? YellowSnowRecords2

 * Okay: that's fine by me, man. Extremely sexy 13:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

So is it posible to get this published? What does anyone else think? YellowSnowRecords2

 * Try inserting it yourself in fact: you can do it just as well, hence. Extremely sexy 13:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

 * And don't forget to quote reliable sources! Wikipedia needs to be able to check mainstream media sources (newspapers, books, etc) that all information on the game is accurate. If the game is something you made up with your pals, unfortunately Wikipedia is not for things made up while getting sloshed at the pub one day. Weregerbil 13:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

But what if it merely has a cult following? I shall try and track down some mainstream media sources I would post it myself but thats the reason iam YellowSnowRecords2 and not 1 as they considered me dangerous and threatening woo go me YellowSnowRecords2

 * Come again then? Extremely sexy 10:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry maybe i didnt make any sense Ok il post find the pint and if i get warned and it gets deleted you can back me up :-) So where should i post it? YellowSnowRecords2

 * I would put it over here, man. Extremely sexy 10:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Posted it and already put up for speedy deletion!! Thanks for the Help anyway and if you can stop it from being deleted that would be great thanks YellowSnowRecords2

 * I had to delete it, since the article is gone apparently, but did you add references in it, dear friend? Extremely sexy 14:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep i added references but the person who deleted said it was against copyright,Even though YellowSnowRecords was my username on UrbanDictionary aswell he couldnt work out that it was the same person?? Isnt it a genuine reference if UrbanDictionary publish it? lol YellowSnowRecords2 09:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

 * So maybe you should try again right now. Extremely sexy 22:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Tried again and got deleted again YellowSnowRecords2 09:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I saw you added it again, but when I tried to assess the article it was already in red. Extremely sexy 15:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no point wikipedia has lost out in having Find The Pint ahh well, thanks for the help anyway YellowSnowRecords2 08:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Not all is lost, since it's still on the article page, so just make it again now, and refer to me on its talk page. Extremely sexy 20:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I refered to you and everything but it got deleted again... YellowSnowRecords2 12:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Damn: can you tell me who did this, an administrator, is it? Extremely sexy 13:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, I deleted it (for the fourth time). Urban Dictionary is not a valid primary source, especially when YSR admitted that he was the one who submitted it to Urban Dictionary in the first place (and when you submitted it to UD, you gave them the copyright). Furthermore, "invented in 2007" is never a good sign, since it means that the game has not had the chance to spread by itself. Wikipedia is not for making things famous. "Merely has a cult following" = "doesn't meet our criteria yet". Oh, and "the reason iam YellowSnowRecords2 and not 1 as they considered me dangerous and threatening woo go me" - this refers to the fact that his first account, YellowSnowRecords, received several warnings for vandalism and was blocked for 24 hours for making personal attacks. DS 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for explaining all of this to me, but maybe he can come up with a better source? Extremely sexy 14:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/worldofpub/findyerpint/index.shtml Could this some how be considered a better reference? The previous account was deleted because i added things about my school and area and the Admin that deleted it did'nt understand or check anything so i went bit mad and made fun of him and then vandilized some things for fun :-) But now im trying to help and i am adding to different articles to with my area,i am still learning but i wish merely to add to the cultural differences and give people a better insight into Fermanagh. YellowSnowRecords2 15:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That BBC page appears to be about having people steal your drink, not spit/pee/bleed/ejaculate in it. DS 15:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

ooh k you play an extreme version of Find The Pint YellowSnowRecords2 17:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Notability
There has been an AfD on Pub Hide and Seek: the issues raised affect many of the articles here. A discussion on the subject now may be a good idea. --Nate 08:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Drinking games in China - are you sure?
I was very surprised of the Chinese drinking games because as I know, Asian people tolerate alcohol less than European. This is because 40% of them have very few of that enzyme, wich processes the alcohol. See: or

How did they drink so much 1k years ago? What did they drink? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mojzi (talk • contribs) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Movie Drinking Games external links
I saw that you have two links, one for Lazydork.com and one for Moviecynics.com; I propose eliminating the moviecynics link because it's just redundant to have two external links for the same thing and the lazydork site is, upon inspection, a far more inclusive site for movie drinking games; also, it's a dedicated site to the topic while moviecynics is a general movie site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigicat (talk • contribs) 14:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Drinking Record
I can't find any references for this other than a reference to a quote from his memoirs - http://www.australianbeers.com/culture/drinkingrecords.htm but within Australia, former Prime Minister Bob Hawke is widely regarded has having held a beer drinking speed record. As his memoir quotes he drank a 2.5 pint yard glass of beer in 11 seconds back in 1955 when at college.

Due to the the notoriety of the story (and presumably it's accuracy) I think it's worth adding into this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.233.17 (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Beiruit and Silent Football
The two games I played the most in college (and may or may not still play) were Beirut (aka Beer Pong without the paddles) and Silent Football (game of skill with a Game Master etc.). I am shocked to see neither of these mentioned. A lesser-known version of Beer Pong/Beirut is Cups, in which the front cup is filled to the brim with beer and is known as the "Death Cup". Another notable difference in Cups is the existence of the rule that whenever a player gets two balls in the same cup, the entire row of cups must be drunk by the opposing team.216.141.81.254 (talk) 20:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)DN 11.14.08

Slap the bag
"Slap the Bag" is a recent phenomena that has evolved with the creation of boxed wine (i.e. Franzia, etc.) The rules of the game consists of first taking the plastic bag of wine out of its cardboard container. People then take turns drinking out of the plastic bag while spinning in circles and passing the bag along until exhaustion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougplang (talk • contribs) 22:59, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Dregs to hit targets with their wine???
What is meant by "Players would use dregs to hit targets across the room with their wine"? You could 'use dregs to hit targets across the room', or you could 'hit targets across the room with wine'. Please clarify. 71.139.166.154 (talk) 21:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

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Goon of Fortune
Interesting to see that the iconic Australian drinking game 'Goon of Fortune' is not listed in this article even though a link to this page is provided on that page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goon_of_Fortune. It could conceivably be added to an "Australian" section of the article that recognises the cultural elements of the Hills Clothes Hoist and cask wine bag. Andmark (talk) 01:21, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Drinking game


text:
Dionysius Thrax

Dionysius Thrax (Διονύσιος ὁ Θρᾷξ Dionýsios ho Thrâix, 170–90 BC) was a Greek grammarian and a pupil of Aristarchus of Samothrace. He was long considered to be the author of the earliest grammatical text on the Greek language, one that was used as a standard manual for perhaps some 1,500 years, and which was until recently regarded as the groundwork of the entire Western grammatical tradition.

Life
His place of origin was not Thrace as the epithet "Thrax" denotes, but probably Alexandria. His Thracian background was inferred from the name of his father Tērēs (Τήρης), which is considered to be a Thracian name. One of his co-students during his studies in Alexandria under Aristarchus was Apollodorus of Athens, who also became a distinguished grammarian. Rudolf Pfeiffer dates his shift to the isle of Rhodes to around 144/143 BC, when political upheavals associated with the policies of Ptolemy VIII Euergetes II are thought to have led to his exile. According to a report in Athenaeus' Deipnosophistae (11,489a, b), his Rhodian pupils, grateful for his learning, gathered enough silver to enable him to fashion a cup whose shape aspired to recreate that of Nestor mentioned in the Iliad (Book 11, lines 632–637).

Dionysius was primarily a Homeric scholar, which was integral to his training under Aristarchus in Alexandria. His work shows some influence of earlier Stoic grammatical theory, particularly on word classes. He is also reported by Varro to have been an erudite analyst of Greek lyric poetry, perhaps referring to his linguistic and prosodic use of that material. He wrote prolifically in three genres: philological questions (γραμματικά); running commentaries (ὑπομνήματα) and treatises (συνταγματικά). Of the last genre, he wrote a polemical monograph criticizing the Homeric interpretations of Krates. Another work he is said to have written was the Περὶ ποσοτήτων (On quantities). From the scholia preserved from the critical works of Aristonicus and Didymus who excerpted Dionysius' work it is clear that he was decidedly independent in his textual judgements on the Homeric corpus, since he frequently contradicts his master's known readings. His teaching may have exercised a formative impact on the rise of Roman grammatical studies if as an entry in the Suda suggests, the elder Tyrannion was one of his pupils. The founder of classical scholarship in Rome, L. Aelius Stilo may have profited from Dionysius' instruction, since he accompanied to Rhodes Q. Metellus Numidicus when the latter went into voluntary exile, and while Dionysius was still teaching there.

Tékhnē grammatikē
Dionysius Thrax was credited traditionally as the author of the first extant grammar of Greek, Art of Grammar (Τέχνη γραμματική, Tékhnē grammatikē). The Greek text, in August Immanuel Bekker's edition, runs to fifty pages. Its importance in Byzantine scholarship is attested by the fact that commentaries on it by Byzantine scholiasts run to some 600 pages. The text itself was thought to be the unique extant example of a work by Hellenistic scholars. This general consensus began to break down when examinations of grammatical texts datable to a later period emerged among the finds of the Oxyrhynchus Papyri which, until relatively late, showed no awareness of key elements in the text attributed to Dionysius Thrax. It concerns itself primarily with a morphological description of Greek, lacking any treatment of syntax. The work was translated into Armenian sometime around the 5th to 6th centuries AD, and into Syriac by Joseph Huzaya around that same period.

Dionysius defines grammar at the beginning of the Tékhnē as "the empirical knowledge of what is for the most part being said by poets and prose writers". He states that grammatikē, what we might nowadays call "literary criticism", comprises six parts:

Grammatikḗ
 * (a) ἀνάγνωσις ἐντριβὴς κατὰ προσῳδίαν (anagnōsis...): reading aloud with correct pronunciation, accent and punctuation.
 * (b) ἐξήγησις κατὰ τοὺς ἐνυπάρχοντας ποιητικοὺς τρόπους (exēgēsis...): exposition of the tropes/τρόποι, the figurative language of texts.
 * (c) ἀπόδοσις πρόχειρος γλωσσῶν τε καὶ ἰστοριῶν (apodosis...): common exposition of obsolete words and subject matter.
 * (d) εὕρεσις ἐτυμολογίας (heuresis...): finding the correct meaning of words according to their origin (etymology).
 * (e) ἐκλογισμὸς ἀναλογίας (eklogismos...): setting forth or considering analogies.
 * (f) κρίσις ποιημάτων (krisis...): critical judgement of the works examined.

Paragraph 6 outlines the στοιχεῖα (stoikheia) or letters of the alphabet, together with the divisions into vowels, diphthongs and consonants.

Paragraphs 7–10 deal with syllables, long (μακραὶ συλλαβαί), short (βραχεῖαι συλλαβαί) and anceps (κοιναὶ συλλαβαί).

Paragraph 11 treats the eight-word classes, though strong doubts exist as to whether or not this division goes back to Dionysius Thrax, since ancient testimonies assert that he conflated proper nouns and appellatives, and classified the article together with pronouns. In the text attributed to Dionysius, the eight classes, which Di Benedetto and others argue was probably developed by Tryphon several decades after Dionysius, are as follows:

 * (a) the 'name' (ὄνομα ónoma), translated as noun: a part of speech inflected for case. Its three genders: masculine (ἀρσενικόν), feminine (θηλυκόν) and neutral (οὐδέτερον) are distinguished, together with the five case endings. He also notes however that two other terms are also in use: κοινόν (common) designating those words whose gender varies depending on the sex of the creature, such as ἵππος (hippos 'horse') and ἐπίκοινον (epicene)  used to define words whose gender is stable, but which can refer to either sex, instancing χελιδών (khelidōn 'swallow').  The name includes various species like nouns, adjectives, proper nouns, appellatives,  collectives, ordinals, numerals and more.

 * For example, the appellative (προσηγορία), which he considers a species (εἶδος) of the proper noun, not a distinct part of speech.
 * (b) the verb (ῥῆμα) with its tenses.
 * (c) the participle (μετοχή)
 * (d) the article (ἄρθρον)
 * (e) the pronoun (ἀντωνυμία)
 * (f) the preposition (πρόθεσις)
 * (g) the adverb (ἐπίρρημα)
 * (h) the conjunction (σύνδεσμος)

Paragraphs 12-20 then elaborate successively on the parts of speech.

Authorship
Modern scepticism over the attribution is associated with the pioneering work of Vincenzo Di Benedetto in particular, though as early as 1822 Karl Wilhelm Göttling, by analyzing the scholia on the text that had recently been collected and published by A. I. Bekker, concluded that the text as we have it was to be dated, not to the Hellenistic period but rather to the Byzantine period. Göttling's thesis convinced neither Moritz Schmidt nor Gustav Uhlig, and disappeared from view. In 1958/1959, Di Benedetto revived doubts by comparing the received text with ancient grammatical papyri that had since come to light. He argued that before the 3rd to 4th centuries AD, no papyri on Greek grammar reveal material structured in a way similar to the exposition we have in Dionysius's treatise, that the surviving witnesses for the period before that late date, namely authors such as Sextus Empiricus, Aelius Herodianus, Apollonius Dyscolus and Quintilian, fail to cite him, and that Dionysius's work only begins to receive explicit mention in the works written from the 5th century onwards by such scholars as Timotheus of Gaza, Ammonius Hermiae and Priscian. Di Benedetto concluded that only the first five paragraphs of the treatise came from Dionysius' hand.

Though initially rebuffed by scholars of the calibre of Pfeiffer and Hartmut Erbse, Di Benedetto's argument today has found general acceptance among specialists.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Dionysius Thrax


text:
December 29

Pre-1600

 * 1170 – Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, is assassinated inside Canterbury Cathedral by followers of King Henry II; he subsequently becomes a saint and martyr in the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church.
 * 1503 – The Battle of Garigliano was fought between a Spanish army under Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba and a French army commanded by Ludovico II, Marquess of Saluzzo.

1601–1900

 * 1607 – According to John Smith, Pocahontas, daughter of Powhatan leader Wahunsenacawh, successfully pleads for his life after tribal leaders attempt to execute him.
 * 1778 – American Revolutionary War: Three thousand British soldiers under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Archibald Campbell capture Savannah, Georgia.
 * 1812 – USS Constitution, under the command of Captain William Bainbridge, captures HMS Java (1811) off the coast of Brazil after a three-hour battle.
 * 1835 – The Treaty of New Echota is signed, ceding all the lands of the Cherokee east of the Mississippi River to the United States.
 * 1845 – The United States annexes the Republic of Texas and admits it as the 28th state.
 * 1860 – The launch of HMS Warrior (1860), with her combination of screw propeller, iron hull and iron armour, renders all previous warships obsolete.
 * 1874 – The military coup of Gen. Martinez Campos in Sagunto ends the failed First Spanish Republic and the monarchy is restored as Prince Alfonso is proclaimed King of Spain.
 * 1876 – The Ashtabula River railroad disaster occurs, leaving 64 injured and 92 dead at Ashtabula, Ohio.
 * 1890 – On Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, 300 Lakota are killed by the United States 7th Cavalry Regiment.

1901–present

 * 1911 – Mongolia gains independence from the Qing dynasty, enthroning 8th Jebtsundamba Khutughtu as Khagan of Mongolia.
 * 1913 – Cecil B. DeMille starts filming Hollywood's first feature film, The Squaw Man.
 * 1930 – Sir Muhammad Iqbal's presidential address in Allahabad introduces the two-nation theory and outlines a vision for the creation of Pakistan.
 * 1934 – Japan renounces the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 and the London Naval Treaty of 1930.
 * 1937 – The Irish Free State is replaced by a new state called Ireland with the adoption of a new constitution.
 * 1940 – In the Second Great Fire of London, the Luftwaffe fire-bombs London, England, killing almost 200 civilians during World War II.
 * 1972 – Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 (a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar) crashes in the Florida Everglades on approach to Miami International Airport, Florida, killing 101 of the 176 people on board.
 * 1975 – A bomb explodes at LaGuardia Airport in New York City, killing 11 people and injuring more than 75.
 * 1989 – Czech writer, philosopher and dissident Václav Havel is elected the first post-communist President of Czechoslovakia.
 * 1989  – The Nikkei 225 for the Tokyo Stock Exchange hits its all-time intra-day high of 38,957.44 and closing high at 38,915.87, serving as the apex of the Japanese asset price bubble.
 * 1992 – Fernando Collor de Mello, president of Brazil, tries to resign amidst corruption charges, but is then impeached.
 * 1994 – Turkish Airlines Flight 278 (a Boeing 737-400) crashes on approach to Van Ferit Melen Airport in Van, Turkey, killing 57 of the 76 people on board.
 * 1996 – Guatemala and leaders of Guatemalan National Revolutionary Unity sign a peace accord ending a 36-year civil war.
 * 1998 – Leaders of the Khmer Rouge apologize for the Cambodian genocide that claimed over one million lives.
 * 2003 – The last known speaker of Akkala Sami dies, rendering the language extinct.
 * 2006 – The UK settles its Anglo-American loan, post-WWII loan debt.
 * 2012 – A Tupolev Tu-204 airliner crashes in a ditch between the airport fence and the M3 highway after overshooting a runway at Vnukovo International Airport in Moscow, Russia, killing five people and leaving three others critically injured.
 * 2013 – A suicide bomb attack at the Volgograd-1 railway station in the southern Russian city of Volgograd kills at least 18 people and wounds 40 others.
 * 2013  – Seven-time Formula One champion Michael Schumacher suffers a massive head injury while skiing in the French Alps.
 * 2020 – A large explosion at the airport in the southern Yemeni city of Aden kills at least 22 people and wounds 50.
 * 2020  – A magnitude 6.4 earthquake hits near the town of Petrinja in Sisak-Moslavina County, Croatia, killing seven people.

Pre-1600

 * 1536 – Henry VI, German nobleman (d. 1572)
 * 1550 – García de Silva Figueroa, Spanish diplomat and traveller (d. 1624)

1601–1900

 * 1633 – Johannes Zollikofer, Swiss vicar (d. 1692)
 * 1721 – Madame de Pompadour, mistress of King Louis XV (d. 1764)
 * 1746 – Saverio Cassar, Maltese priest and rebel leader (d. 1805)
 * 1766 – Charles Macintosh, Scottish chemist and the inventor of waterproof fabric (d. 1843)
 * 1788 – Christian Jürgensen Thomsen, Danish antiquarian (d. 1865)
 * 1796 – Johann Christian Poggendorff, German physicist and journalist (d. 1877)
 * 1800 – Charles Goodyear, American chemist and engineer (d. 1860)
 * 1804 – John Langdon Sibley, American librarian (d. 1885)
 * 1808 – Andrew Johnson, American general and politician, 17th President of the United States (d. 1875)
 * 1809 – William Ewart Gladstone, English lawyer and politician, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (d. 1898)
 * 1811 – Francisco Palau, Catalan Discalced Carmelite friar and priest (d. 1872)
 * 1816 – Carl Ludwig, German physician and physiologist (d. 1895)
 * 1844 – Womesh Chunder Bonnerjee, Indian barrister and first president of Indian National Congress (d. 1906)
 * 1855 – August Kitzberg, Estonian author and poet (d. 1927)
 * 1856 – Thomas Joannes Stieltjes, Dutch-French mathematician and academic (d. 1894)
 * 1857 – Sydney Young, English chemist (d. 1937)
 * 1859 – Venustiano Carranza, Mexican soldier and politician, 37th President of Mexico (d. 1920)
 * 1870 – Earl Gregg Swem, American historian, bibliographer and librarian (d. 1965)
 * 1876 – Pablo Casals, Catalan cellist and conductor (d. 1973)
 * 1876  – Lionel Tertis, English violist (d. 1975)
 * 1879 – Billy Mitchell, American general and pilot (d. 1936)
 * 1881 – Jess Willard, American boxer (d. 1968)
 * 1886 – Georg Hermann Struve, German astronomer (d. 1933)
 * 1894 – J. Lister Hill, American politician (d. 1984)
 * 1896 – David Alfaro Siqueiros, Mexican painter (d. 1974)

1901–present

 * 1903 – Candido Portinari, Brazilian painter (d. 1962)
 * 1904 – Kuvempu, Indian author and poet (d. 1994)
 * 1908 – Helmut Gollwitzer, German theologian and author (d. 1993)
 * 1908  – Magnus Pyke, English scientist and author (d. 1992)
 * 1910 – Ronald Coase, English-American economist, author, and academic, Nobel Prize laureate (d. 2013)
 * 1911 – Klaus Fuchs, German physicist and spy (d. 1988)
 * 1914 – Zainul Abedin, Bangladeshi painter and academic (d. 1976)
 * 1914  – Billy Tipton, American pianist and saxophonist (d. 1989)
 * 1914  – Albert Tucker, Australian painter and illustrator (d. 1999)
 * 1915 – Robert Ruark, American hunter and author (d. 1965)
 * 1915  – Jo Van Fleet, American actress (d. 1996)
 * 1917 – Tom Bradley, American lieutenant, lawyer, and politician, 38th Mayor of Los Angeles (d. 1998)
 * 1917  – Ramanand Sagar, Indian director and producer (d. 2005)
 * 1919 – Alfred de Grazia, American political scientist and author (d. 2014)
 * 1919  – Roman Vlad, Italian pianist and composer (d. 2013)
 * 1920 – Viveca Lindfors, Swedish-American actress, singer and poet (d. 1995)
 * 1921 – Dobrica Ćosić, Serbian politician, 1st President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (d. 2014)
 * 1921  – Michael Horne, English structural engineer, scientist and academic (d. 2000)
 * 1922 – Little Joe Cook, American singer-songwriter (d. 2014)
 * 1922  – William Gaddis, American author and academic (d. 1998)
 * 1923 – Cheikh Anta Diop, Senegalese historian, anthropologist, and physicist (d. 1986)
 * 1923  – Morton Estrin, American pianist and educator (d. 2017)
 * 1923  – Dina Merrill, American actress, game show panelist, socialite, heiress, and businesswoman (d. 2017)
 * 1923  – Shlomo Venezia, Greek-Italian author and Holocaust survivor (d. 2012)
 * 1924 – Joe Allbritton, American businessman and publisher, founded the Allbritton Communications Company (d. 2012)
 * 1924  – Kim Song-ae, Korean politician (d. 2014)
 * 1925 – Pete Dye, American golfer and architect (d. 2020)
 * 1928 – Bernard Cribbins, British actor (d. 2022)
 * 1932 – Inga Swenson, American actress and singer (d. 2023)
 * 1933 – Samuel Brittan, English journalist and author (d. 2020)
 * 1934 – Ed Flanders, American actor (d. 1995)
 * 1936 – Mary Tyler Moore, American actress and producer (d. 2017)
 * 1936  – Ray Nitschke, American football player (d. 1998)
 * 1937 – Wayne Huizenga, American businessman, founded AutoNation (d. 2018)
 * 1938 – Jon Voight, American actor and producer
 * 1939 – Ed Bruce, American country music singer-songwriter (d. 2021)
 * 1941 – Ray Thomas, English singer-songwriter and flute player (d. 2018)
 * 1942 – Rajesh Khanna, Indian actor (d. 2012)
 * 1942  – Dorothy Morkis, American equestrian
 * 1943 – Bill Aucoin, American talent manager (d. 2010)
 * 1943  – Molly Bang, American author and illustrator
 * 1943  – Rick Danko, Canadian singer-songwriter, bass player, and producer (d. 1999)
 * 1944 – Gerard Windsor, Australian author and literary critic
 * 1945 – Keith Milow, British artist
 * 1946 – Marianne Faithfull, English singer-songwriter and actress
 * 1946  – Paul Trible, American attorney, politician and academic administrator
 * 1947 – Richard Crandall, American physicist and computer scientist (d. 2012)
 * 1947  – Ted Danson, American actor and producer
 * 1947  – Leonhard Lapin, Estonian architect and poet (d. 2022)
 * 1947  – Cozy Powell, English drummer, songwriter, and producer (d. 1998)
 * 1947  – Vincent Winter, Scottish actor, director, and production manager (d. 1998)
 * 1948 – Jacky Clark Chisholm, American gospel singer
 * 1948  – Peter Robinson, Northern Irish politician, 3rd First Minister of Northern Ireland
 * 1949 – David Topliss, English rugby league player and coach (d. 2008)
 * 1950 – Jon Polito, American actor (d. 2016)
 * 1951 – Willem de Blécourt, Dutch historical anthropologist
 * 1951  – Yvonne Elliman, American singer-songwriter and actress
 * 1952 – Gelsey Kirkland, American ballerina and choreographer
 * 1953 – Alan Rusbridger, Zambian-English journalist and academic
 * 1953  – Stanley Williams, American gang leader, co-founded the Crips (d. 2005)
 * 1955 – Chris Goodall, English businessman and author
 * 1955  – Donald D. Hoffman, American quantitative psychologist and author
 * 1956 – Zaki Chehab, Lebanese-British journalist
 * 1956  – Katy Munger, American writer
 * 1957 – Brad Grey, American screenwriter and producer (d. 2017)
 * 1957  – Paul Rudnick, American author, playwright, and screenwriter
 * 1958 – Tyrone Benskin, English-Canadian actor, theatre director and politician
 * 1958  – Nancy J. Currie-Gregg, American colonel, engineer, and astronaut
 * 1959 – Patricia Clarkson, American actress
 * 1959  – Ann Demeulemeester, Belgian fashion designer
 * 1959  – Paula Poundstone, American comedian and author
 * 1960 – Brian A. Hopkins, American author
 * 1960  – David Boon, Australian cricketer
 * 1960  – Thomas Lubanga Dyilo, Congolese militia leader, founded the Union of Congolese Patriots
 * 1960  – Michael James Pappas, American politician
 * 1961 – Kevin Granata, American engineer and academic (d. 2007)
 * 1962 – Leza Lowitz, American author
 * 1962  – Carles Puigdemont, Catalan politician and journalist, former president
 * 1963 – Sean Payton, American football player and coach
 * 1963  – Ulf Kristersson, Swedish politician, Leader of the Swedish Moderate Party and 35th Prime Minister of Sweden
 * 1964 – Michael Cudlitz, American actor
 * 1965 – Dexter Holland, American musician, singer, songwriter, and biologist
 * 1965  – John Newton, American actor
 * 1966 – Jason Gould, American actor and singer
 * 1966  – Christian Kracht, Swiss author
 * 1967 – Lilly Wachowski, American director, screenwriter and producer
 * 1968 – James Mouton, American baseball player
 * 1969 – Jason Cook, English footballer
 * 1969  – Jennifer Ehle, American actress
 * 1969  – Scott Patterson, American financial journalist and author
 * 1970 – Kevin Weisman, American actor
 * 1971 – Mike Pesca, American radio journalist and podcaster
 * 1972 – Andreas Dackell, Swedish ice hockey player
 * 1972  – Jude Law, English actor
 * 1973 – Theo Epstein, American businessman
 * 1973  – Jenny Lawson, American journalist and author
 * 1974 – Maria Dizzia, American actress
 * 1974  – Twinkle Khanna, Indian actress and writer
 * 1974  – Mahal, Filipino actress, comedian and vlogger (d. 2021)
 * 1974  – Mekhi Phifer, American actor
 * 1974  – Ryan Shore, Canadian composer and producer
 * 1975 – Shawn Hatosy, American actor
 * 1976 – Filip Kuba, Czech ice hockey player
 * 1976  – Danny McBride, American actor, producer and screenwriter
 * 1976  – Katherine Moennig, American actress
 * 1978 – Kieron Dyer, English footballer and coach
 * 1978  – Danny Higginbotham, English footballer and journalist
 * 1979 – Diego Luna, Mexican actor, director and producer
 * 1979  – Reihan Salam, American political commentator, columnist and author
 * 1981 – Shizuka Arakawa, Japanese figure skater and sportscaster
 * 1981  – Janice Lynn Mather, Bahamian-Canadian author
 * 1981  – Anna Woltz, Dutch author
 * 1982 – Alison Brie, American actress
 * 1982  – Julia Wertz, American cartoonist, writer and urban explorer
 * 1983 – Jessica Andrews, American singer and songwriter
 * 1984 – Branden Jacobs-Jenkins, American playwright
 * 1985 – Alexa Ray Joel, American singer-songwriter
 * 1986 – Derek Ryan, American ice hockey player
 * 1987 – Iain De Caestecker, Scottish actor
 * 1988 – Eric Berry, American football player
 * 1988  – Christen Press, American footballer
 * 1988  – Ágnes Szávay, Hungarian tennis player
 * 1989 – Jane Levy, American actress
 * 1989  – Kei Nishikori, Japanese tennis player
 * 1989  – Harri Säteri, Finnish ice hockey player
 * 1991 – Steven Caulker, English footballer
 * 1993 – Gabby May, Canadian artistic gymnast
 * 1995 – Myles Garrett, American football player
 * 1995  – Ross Lynch, American singer and actor
 * 1996 – Sana Minatozaki, Japanese singer
 * 1996  – Dylan Minnette, American actor, musician and singer
 * 1998 – Seamus Davey-Fitzpatrick, American actor
 * 2000 – Julio Rodríguez, Dominican baseball player

Pre-1600

 * 1170 – Thomas Becket, English archbishop and saint (b. 1118)
 * 1208 – Emperor Zhangzong of Jin, (b. 1168)
 * 1380 – Elizabeth of Poland, queen consort of Hungary (b. 1305)
 * 1550 – Bhuvanaikabahu VII, King of Kotte (b. 1468)
 * 1563 – Sebastian Castellio, French preacher and theologian (b. 1515)

1601–1900

 * 1606 – Stephen Bocskai, Prince of Transylvania (b. 1557)
 * 1661 – Antoine Girard de Saint-Amant, French poet (b. 1594)
 * 1689 – Thomas Sydenham, English physician and author (b. 1624)
 * 1720 – Maria Margaretha Kirch, German astronomer and educator (b. 1670)
 * 1731 – Brook Taylor, English mathematician and theorist (b. 1685)
 * 1785 – Johann Heinrich Rolle, German composer (b. 1716)
 * 1785  – Johan Herman Wessel, Norwegian-Danish poet and playwright (b. 1742)
 * 1807 – Diogo de Carvalho e Sampayo, Portuguese diplomat and scientist (b. 1750)
 * 1825 – Jacques-Louis David, French painter and illustrator (b. 1748)
 * 1838 – Søren Christian Sommerfelt, Norwegian priest and botanist (b. 1794)
 * 1890 – Spotted Elk, American tribal leader (b. 1826)
 * 1890  – Octave Feuillet, French novelist and dramatist (b. 1821)
 * 1891 – Leopold Kronecker, Polish-German mathematician and academic (b. 1823)
 * 1894 – Christina Rossetti, English poet and hymn-writer (b. 1830)
 * 1897 – William James Linton, English-American painter, author, and activist (b. 1812)
 * 1900 – John Henry Leech, English entomologist (b. 1862)

1901–present

 * 1905 – Charles Yerkes, American financier (b. 1837)
 * 1910 – Samuel Butcher, Anglo-Irish classical scholar and politician (b. 1850)
 * 1910  – Reginald Doherty, English tennis player (b. 1872)
 * 1911 – Rosamund Marriott Watson, English poet, author and critic (b. 1860)
 * 1918 – Abby Leach, American educator (b. 1855)
 * 1919 – William Osler, Canadian physician and professor (b. 1849)
 * 1921 – Hermann Paul, German philologist, linguist and lexicographer (b. 1846)
 * 1924 – Carl Spitteler, Swiss poet and academic, Nobel Prize laureate (b. 1845)
 * 1925 – Félix Vallotton, Swiss-French painter (b. 1865)
 * 1926 – Rainer Maria Rilke, Austrian poet and author (b. 1875)
 * 1929 – Wilhelm Maybach, German engineer and businessman, founded Maybach (b. 1846)
 * 1929  – Edward Christopher Williams, American librarian (b. 1871)
 * 1937 – Don Marquis, American journalist, author, and playwright (b. 1878)
 * 1939 – Kelly Miller, American mathematician, sociologist, essayist, newspaper columnist and author (b. 1863)
 * 1939  – Madeleine Pelletier, French psychiatrist, feminist and political activist (b. 1874)
 * 1940 – Stephen Birch, American businessman (b. 1873)
 * 1941 – Louis Eilshemius, American painter (b. 1864)
 * 1941  – Tullio Levi-Civita, Italian mathematician and scholar (b. 1873)
 * 1943 – Art Young, American cartoonist and writer (b. 1866)
 * 1944 – Khasan Israilov, Chechen rebel (b. 1910)
 * 1945 – Beulah Dark Cloud, American actress (b. 1887)
 * 1946 – Camillo Schumann, German composer and organist (b. 1872)
 * 1948 – Harry Farjeon, British composer and music teacher (b. 1878)
 * 1949 – Tyler Dennett, American historian and author (b. 1883)
 * 1952 – Fletcher Henderson, American pianist, composer, and bandleader (b. 1897)
 * 1952  – Beryl Rubinstein, American pianist, composer and teacher (b. 1898)
 * 1954 – William Merriam Burton, American chemist (b. 1865)
 * 1956 – Miles Vandahurst Lynk, American physician and author (b. 1871)
 * 1958 – Doris Humphrey, American dancer and choreographer (b. 1895)
 * 1959 – Robin Milford, English soldier and composer (b. 1903)
 * 1960 – Eden Phillpotts, English author and poet (b. 1862)
 * 1965 – Frank Nugent, American screenwriter, journalist and film reviewer (b. 1908)
 * 1965  – Kōsaku Yamada, Japanese composer and conductor (b. 1886)
 * 1967 – Paul Whiteman, American violinist, composer, and conductor (b. 1890)
 * 1968 – Austin Farrer, English theologian and philosopher (b. 1904)
 * 1970 – William King Gregory, American zoologist and anatomist (b. 1876)
 * 1970  – Marie Menken, American director and painter (b. 1909)
 * 1971 – John Marshall Harlan II, American lawyer and jurist (b. 1899)
 * 1972 – Joseph Cornell, American sculptor and director (b. 1903)
 * 1975 – Euell Gibbons, American author and naturalist (b. 1911)
 * 1976 – Ivo Van Damme, Belgian runner (b. 1954)
 * 1979 – F. Edward Hébert, American journalist and politician (b. 1901)
 * 1979  – Richard Tecwyn Williams, Welsh biochemist (b. 1909)
 * 1980 – Nadezhda Mandelstam, Russian author and educator (b. 1899)
 * 1980  – Irvin F. Westheimer, American businessman and social reformer (b. 1879)
 * 1981 – Philip Handler, American nutritionist, and biochemist (b. 1917)
 * 1981  – Miroslav Krleža, Croatian author, poet, and playwright (b. 1893)
 * 1984 – P. H. Polk, American photographer (b. 1898)
 * 1984  – Leo Robin, American composer, lyricist and songwriter (b. 1900)
 * 1986 – Harold Macmillan, English captain and politician, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (b. 1894)
 * 1986  – Andrei Tarkovsky, Russian director and screenwriter (b. 1932)
 * 1987 – Jun Ishikawa, Japanese author (b. 1899)
 * 1987  – Wilbert E. Moore, American sociologist (b. 1914)
 * 1988 – Mike Beuttler, Egyptian race car driver (b. 1940)
 * 1988  – Ieuan Maddock, Welsh scientist and nuclear researcher (b. 1917)
 * 1992 – Vivienne Segal, American actress and singer (b. 1897)
 * 1994 – Frank Thring, Australian actor (b. 1926)
 * 1995 – Hans Henkemans, Dutch pianist, composer and psychiatrist (b. 1913)
 * 1996 – Pennar Davies, Welsh clergyman and author (b. 1911)
 * 1996  – Mireille Hartuch, French singer-songwriter and actress (b. 1906)
 * 1996  – Peggy Herbison, Scottish politician (b. 1907)
 * 1998 – Ralph Siu, American scholar, military and civil servant, and author (b. 1917)
 * 1998  – Don Taylor, American actor and film director (b. 1920)
 * 1999 – Leon Radzinowicz, Polish-English criminologist and academic (b. 1906)
 * 2001 – Takashi Asahina, Japanese conductor (b. 1908)
 * 2001  – György Kepes, Hungarian painter, photographer, designer, educator and art theorist (b. 1906)
 * 2002 – Lloyd Barbee, American lawyer and politician (b. 1925)
 * 2003 – Dinsdale Landen, English actor (b. 1932)
 * 2003  – Bob Monkhouse, English comedian, actor, and game show host (b. 1928)
 * 2004 – Julius Axelrod, American biochemist and academic, Nobel Prize laureate (b. 1912)
 * 2004  – Peter Davison, American poet, essayist, teacher, lecturer, editor and publisher (b. 1928)
 * 2005 – Cyril Philips, British historian and academic director (b. 1912)
 * 2005  – Basil William Robinson, British art scholar and author (b. 1912)
 * 2007 – Phil O'Donnell, Scottish footballer (b. 1972)
 * 2007  – Phil Dusenberry, American advertising executive (b. 1936)
 * 2008 – Freddie Hubbard, American trumpet player and composer (b. 1938)
 * 2008  – Victor H. Krulak, American soldier (b. 1913)
 * 2009 – Janina Bauman, Polish journalist and writer (b. 1926)
 * 2009  – David Levine, American artist and illustrator (b. 1926)
 * 2010 – Avi Cohen, Israeli footballer and manager (b. 1956)
 * 2010  – Bill Erwin, American actor and cartoonist (b. 1914)
 * 2011 – Constance Bartlett Hieatt, American scholar (b. 1928)
 * 2012 – Tony Greig, South African-Australian cricketer and sportscaster (b. 1946)
 * 2012  – William Rees-Mogg, British newspaper journalist (b. 1928)
 * 2013 – C. T. Hsia, Chinese-American critic and scholar (b. 1921)
 * 2013  – Benjamin Curtis, American guitarist, drummer, and songwriter (b. 1978)
 * 2013  – Connie Dierking, American basketball player (b. 1936)
 * 2013  – Wojciech Kilar, Polish classical and film music composer (b. 1932)
 * 2014 – Hari Harilela, Indian-Hong Kong businessman and philanthropist (b. 1922)
 * 2014  – Juanito Remulla, Sr., Filipino lawyer and politician, Governor of Cavite (b. 1933)
 * 2015 – Om Prakash Malhotra, Indian general and politician, 25th Governor of Punjab (b. 1922)
 * 2015  – Pavel Srníček, Czech footballer and coach (b. 1968)
 * 2016 – Keion Carpenter, American football defensive back (b. 1977)
 * 2016  – LaVell Edwards, American football head coach (b. 1930)
 * 2017 – Peggy Cummins, Irish actress (b. 1925)
 * 2017  – John C. Portman Jr., American neofuturistic architect and real estate developer  (b. 1924)
 * 2018 – Brian Garfield, American novelist, historian and screenwriter (b. 1939)
 * 2018  – Rosenda Monteros, Mexican actress (b. 1935)
 * 2019 – Alasdair Gray, Scottish writer and artist (b. 1934)
 * 2019  – Neil Innes, English writer, comedian and musician (b. 1944)
 * 2020 – Pierre Cardin, Italian-French fashion designer (b. 1922)
 * 2020  – Joe Louis Clark, American educator (b. 1937)
 * 2021 – Peter Klatzow, South African composer (b. 1945)
 * 2022 – Pelé, Brazilian footballer (b. 1940)
 * 2022  – Edgar Savisaar, Estonian politician, Estonian Minister of the Interior (b. 1950)
 * 2022  – Vivienne Westwood, English fashion designer (b. 1941)
 * 2023   – Gil de Ferran, French-born Brazilian racing driver, CART champion (2000, 2001), 2003 Indianapolis 500 winner (b. 1967)

Holidays and observances

 * Christian feast day:
 * Ebrulf
 * Jonathan, Prince of Israel and David's friend.
 * Thomas Becket
 * Trophimus of Arles
 * December 29 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics)
 * Constitution Day (Ireland)
 * Independence Day (Mongolia)
 * The fifth day of Christmas (Western Christianity)
 * The fourth day of Kwanzaa (United States)

title: December 29


text:
Despina

Despina may refer to:

People

 * Despina Achladiotou, the Lady of Ro (c1890–1982), Greek patriot
 * Despina Chatzivassiliou-Tsovilis (born 1967), Secretary General of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE)
 * Despina Delios, American beauty pageant contestant
 * Despina Georgiadou (born 1991), Greek fencer
 * Mary Despina Lekas (1928–2023), American surgeon
 * Debbie Matenopolous, born Despina Matenopoulos (born 1974), American television host
 * Despina Montagas (born 1961), Greek wrestler
 * Despina Olympiou (born 1975), Greek-Cypriot singer
 * Despina Papadopoulou (born 1979), Greek footballer
 * Despina Papamichail (born 1993), Greek tennis player
 * Despina Stokou (born 1978), Greek artist based in Los Angeles
 * Despina Storch (1894 or 1895–1918), Greek woman suspected of spying for Germany in World War I
 * Despina Stratigakos (born 1963), Canadian-born architectural historian and academic
 * Despina Vandi (born 1969), Greek singer
 * Despoina Vavatsi (born 1978), Greek athlete
 * Olivera Despina (c. 1373 – after 1444), Serbian princess and Ottoman queen consort
 * Milica Despina of Wallachia (c. 1485 – 1554), Princess consort of Wallachia

Other uses

 * Despoina, a figure in Greek mythology
 * Despina (moth), a genus of moth
 * Despina (moon), a moon of Neptune
 * Despina, a character in Mozart's opera Così fan tutte
 * "Despoina", a song by Nikos Karvelas

title: Despina


text:
Talk:Darwinism

Definition
I changed the word "concepts" in the first sentence to "theory". As it is, the word "theory" has a very specific meaning in science, not to be confused with a philosophical concept which this article describes. The rest of Darwinism should also be revised accordingly. --Yerpo (talk) 09:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I found a really good site: that gives a good definition of Darwinism. As explained in the article, many people misunderstand darwinism as a theory SOLELY FOCUSED on the process of natural selection. Using a quote found in Darwin's On the Origin of Species provided by the article.

"But as my conclusions have lately been much misrepresented, and it has been stated that I attribute the modification of species exclusively to natural selection, I may be permitted to remark that in the first edition of this work, and subsequently, I placed in a most conspicuous position -- namely, at the close of the Introduction -- the following words: "I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification."

I think it is important to acknowledge this and maybe change the definition. 218.250.156.137 (talk) 09:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks, we're already using that source as reference 4 for the second paragraph which sets out some of the shifts in usage, including the point that the term has been associated at times with specific ideas. This paper goes more into recent misuse of the term. The article needs to be revised to use the information in both of these references, if you can help by adding a summary of significant points that'll be great. . . dave souza, talk 12:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The first line reads: "Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce"

That is actually the Theory of Evolution. I suggest that it may be more accurate were it to read: "Darwinism a term used to describe various views or aspects regarding or arising from the theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce."

Somebody had changed the words 'Darwin' and 'Darwinism' to 'joey quiambao' and 'joeyism' respectively, so I changed it back.

I understand that topics regarding evolution will be controversial, and the introductory paragraph to any article is important so I have not attempted to edit it to reflect what I consider to be a more accurate description without getting some feedback on the matter. Tarquin Q. Zanzibar 08:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by El Badboy! (talk • contribs)

Comment boxes
Most of the comments aplied to this article,like 'citation needed 'seem to derive from a position that is disbelieving of Darwinism. For example against a reference to Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene, in blue (therefore referenced in Wiki) is cited a 'reference needed'. Is this a very unsubtle way that disblievers in evolution are trying to make their arguments. If there are substantive arguments against the concept of evolution, they shouldbe clearly and openly made, so that they can be subject to proper scientific and forensic enquiry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.145.81 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 11 January, 2008

Can I include that darwinismis a slang word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.97.52 (talk) 04:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Not without a reliable source to verify it. HrafnTalkStalk 05:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Overcoming Obstacles to Evolution Education. Don’t Call it “Darwinism” by Eugenie C. Scott1 and Glenn Branch provides a timely reliable source about the misuse of the term in one rather influential country. . . dave souza, talk 12:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The link of the article just above is broken, the whole website doesnt seem to exist anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2788:288:4A4:C5D9:D643:F9AE:3DBD (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Automatic Archiving
Unless there is an objection, I'm going to set up automatic archiving for this article's talk page; all threads older than 30 days will be automatically archived by a bot. Vicenarian (T · C) 14:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Given there's only been one new thread in the last six months, I don't know if we really need automatic archiving. Also I'd suggest a longer (say 90 day) window if it is set up. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Okay. Maybe a one-time manual archive? Vicenarian  (T · C) 15:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Done. The archive for the entire history of this Talk header is only 66k. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 16:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

 * That works. Thanks. Vicenarian  (T · C) 16:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Bias
This article is totally biased, from a western-imperialist point of view. Desperately needs some balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaseratiFerarri (talk • contribs) 07:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

 * This is a mature and exhaustively discussed article and as such tagging it and  needs more justification than just this. Removed. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Article on German Darwinism

 * Charles Darwin's Reception in Germany and What Followed, PLoS Biol 7(7). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 06:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Using Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate) as a source
As Wells, an opponent of Darwinism, is being used only to provide a source for nomenclature used by the opponents (and its favourable use in the UK) I am defending my choice of citation here. Propose to add a quotation. Non rhetorically, may I ask "who better"? If anyone can come up with something, I'll happily defer. --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Which is why I didn't revert, but Wells is remarkably untrustworthy, and unsuitable as a source about others. Rather rushed, but this paper covers creationist misuse, and if it doesn't cover it being OK in the UK, Dawkins is a better primary source than Wells. . . dave souza, talk 18:49, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The paper includes UK usage as well. Go ahead, or should I do it as I poked the wasps' nest in the first place? --Old Moonraker (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking that, if you can do it I'll be grateful – am struggling to get on with another article! . . dave souza, talk 19:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, with due acknowledgements. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! . . dave souza, talk 23:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

"Conceptions of Darwinism" uses "phænomena" in quotation
A facsimile of the original page is here. It has the standard spelling. Calling for a RV. --Old Moonraker (talk) 04:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think its right to make the change, do it. Add your source too. ValenShephard (talk) 09:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, it seems to be an OCR error in the Darwin Online text version, their image of the page shows phenomena. Corrected, thanks for picking this up. . . dave souza, talk 11:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fix. --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:02, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Use of the term as an epithet or slogan

 * The term Darwinism is often used in the United States by promoters of creationism, notably by leading members of the intelligent design movement, as an epithet to attack evolution as though it were an ideology (an "ism") of philosophical naturalism, or atheism.[16]

I wonder if both sides of the controversy over "unguided evolution" are not guilty of the same kind of use of epithets (or even sloganeering). As a man I respect very much once said:
 * In order to defend themselves, the best thing, as has always been the case throughout history, is to paint the worst possible picture of their opponent's doctrine and method of operation.

I wonder if we might create a dispassionate, objective, or at least neutral article on the way the major schools of thought in the origins controversy like to portray each other. Hey, why isn't there at least a redirect for "origins controversy"?

Anyway, promoters of evolution as "an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection" seem to be constantly attacking the arguments against them as being an ideology (an "ism") of religious faith in the supernatural.

So I think the article needs a link to the article which explains how the sides portray each other; or if no such article has been written, we'll have to write one together. --Uncle Ed (talk) 17:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What is this unguided of which you speak? Is that creationist for not needing a supernatural creator? Is guidance needed every time a rockfall forms rock fragments of various shapes and sizes? . . . dave souza, talk 01:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the quick response; if we had an Unguided evolution article (even a short one) I could just refer you to it. I don't even know whether the definition I am quoting came from those Nobel Laureates defending evolution or that Roman Catholic Cardinal criticizing it. That's the problem I'm talking about here.

 * I'd like this article (or another one, if I'm in the wrong place) to define exactly what is meant by the terms used.

 * Snap! I just found out I was accidentally (and partly) quoting Darwin himself: "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating ... the facts and arguments on both sides of each question ..."

 * Anyway, I'd like to get a clear picture of the whole thing. --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Seems we have an Unguided evolution article, see Evolution. Vsmith (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

 * And also a guided evolution article, see Progressive creationism. (For the intermediary view that it is guided, but in too subtle a way to be detectable -- and thus indistinguishable from unguided evolution, see Theistic evolution.) HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Thank you both for the information, and for taking my question at face value. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Always glad to assist, you'll have noted my reference to a rockfall, and indeed the good Darwin considered this theological issue in Variation, "Let an architect be compelled to build an edifice with uncut stones, fallen from a precipice. The shape of each fragment may be called accidental; yet the shape of each has been determined by the force of gravity, the nature of the rock, and the slope of the precipice,—events and circumstances, all of which depend on natural laws; but there is no relation between these laws and the purpose for which each fragment is used by the builder." As he said earlier to Asa Gray, "I own that I cannot see, as plainly as others do, & as I shd wish to do, evidence of design & beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world.... Not believing this, I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe & especially the nature of man, & to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me." There were wide views about this topic at the time, not the simplistic "two sides" that modern creationists tend to assume. . dave souza, talk 18:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I deplore any simplistic reduction of a controversy into "two sides" when there are three or more. In particular, I note that when contesting opposing views there is an all-too-common tendency for supporters of a view to put all who disagree with them into a single category:

 * Supporters of evolution tend to label all their opponents as "Creationists" (meaning someone with an a priori belief in supernatural causation of new major kinds of life or new major features of living things like the "molecular motor" of the flagellum or the camera eye)
 * Creationists tend to assert that one can either believe in evolution or be a creationist

 * On top of that is the tendency to lump all creationists into the YEC category, although in the USA there are roughly equal numbers of OEC and YEC (I pronounce these "oik" and "yecch", by the way ;-) --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

 * "...the tendency to lump all creationists into the YEC category, although in the USA there are roughly equal numbers of OEC and YEC"
 * In the context of Evolution (supposing that is what "Darwinism" refers to), the internal schisms of Creationism are not relevant; any form of Creationism in antithetical to science, as Creationism by definistion must necessarily disregard evolution.

I would point out that: HrafnTalkStalk(P) 18:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The 'motor' analogy for flagellum is considered to be a very poor one by experts in the field.
 * 2) The evolution of the eye has been studied in considerable detail, and the use by creationists of the eye is generally simply quote mining Charles Darwin.
 * 3) That a major source of the creationist=YEC conflation is supplied by ID creationists making the claim that they aren't young earth biblical literalists, so they aren't creationists. Added to this, YECs tend to be among the most vocal and most colorful of creationists, so tend to garner most of the attention.
 * Odd wording, "Supporters of evolution tend to label all their opponents..". Firstly, scientists accept the validity and fact of evolution, they don't "support" it. What opponents of evolution are there other than creationists, self professed "creation science" creationists, and of course "cdesign proponentsists"? Of course using term broadly many creationists fully accept the science of evolution, often reconciling it with theistic evolution. But opposition to acceptance of evolution or the science of evolution is a peculiarly fundamentalist view, whose proponents either call themselves creationists or whitewash the term as "design proponents". As in Pandas. . dave souza, talk 19:12, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

refers to various movements and concepts related to ideas of
We need a real definition. The sentence I edited was an absurd string of weasel words- "refers to various movements and concepts related to ideas of..." Bhny (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Evolutionists' confessions regarding darwin
Charles Darwin's educational and scientific attainments were not exactly of the highest, particularly when compared to all the opportunities available in our own day. Darwin embarked on medical studies in Edinburgh, but failed to complete them and abandoned the course half-way through. For that reason, when he launched the theory of evolution, he was ignorant of many branches of science closely related to his theory.

Thomas Huxley was Darwin's closest friend and greatest supporter in terms of the theory of evolution. He is even remembered as "Darwin's bulldog" for his vociferous defense of the theory of evolution on Darwin's behalf. But even he admitted of this friend:

Like the rest of us, he had no proper training in biological science.1

From a letter written to Darwin by A. Sedgwick, his closest friend:

''Parts of it I admired greatly, parts I laughed at till my sides were almost sore; other parts I read with absolute sorrow, because I think them utterly false and grievously mischievous... Many of your wide conclusions are based upon assumptions..''2

Is there actually any valid reason for this section? I was under the impression that the Wiki talk pages were not for the purposes of debate or for people to assert their opinion about the subject(s) of articles. Tarquin Q. Zanzibar 08:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by El Badboy! (talk • contribs) - References
 * 1.Francis Darwin, The Life and Letters of

Charles Darwin, Vol. I, p. 315.
 * 2.Francis Darwin, The Life and Letters of

Charles Darwin, Vol. II, p. 43. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azreenm (talk • contribs) 15:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Blatant nonsense, with no coherent proposal for improving the article. By the way, Adam would be severely offended at being called an "evolutionist", and is no doubt birling in his grave. . . dave souza, talk 18:51, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * p.s. from a quick hunt on the internets, looks like you got this quote mining from the well known comedian Harun Yahya. Were you hooked by a caddis fly?. . dave souza, talk 19:01, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

---

Darwin never stated that man came from apes
I find no quote or evidence that Darwin ever stated that man came from apes. He only puts the question at the end of his book? Please remove images that show this other thgan the original press image of Dawin as an ape. That cartoon is what confuses the world. Obviously we have very similar DNA with chimpanzees, mice and pigs but the missing link has never been found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangutan (talk • contribs) 18:00, 24 November 2014
 * You might want to read Transitional fossil, - "missing link" is not a term used by scientists. Dougweller (talk) 19:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Where is this discused in the article? Looks offtopic.
 * Having said that, Linnaeus long ago noted that humans are apes. My understanding is that Darwin discussed shared common ancestry between humans and other apes in The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex, but you'd have to read it or a good secondary source to find out exactly what he wrote on the topic. . . dave souza, talk 20:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The very article and the most of the talks recorded about it are very very vague ashamed of to be an article wikiepaedia and so it has to be deleted. The article, its citations and also the references are not only anti-darwinian but also pseudo-scientic, more correctly anti-scientific.user:Ulo.Sendhamizhkodhai 12:37, 4 March 2015 (India) — Preceding unsigned comment added by உலோ.செந்தமிழ்க்கோதை (talk • contribs)
 * We delete articles because they fail our criteria of notability. There's no chance at all that this will be deleted. Which references/citations are you unhappy about? Vague generalities are unhelpful. Dougweller (talk) 10:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Other Uses
The passage below was removed, and I'm wondering why? It certainly would appear to fall into the category of "other uses". If it's a problem of citations or such, could it not be cleaned up or flagged rather than removed?:

"The term Darwinism is often used in the United States by promoters of creationism, notably by leading members of the intelligent design movement, as an epithet to attack evolution as though it were an ideology (an "ism") of philosophical naturalism, or atheism. {{Cite book | last = Scott | first =Eugenie C. | author-link =Eugenie Scott | year = 2008 |" — Preceding unsigned comment added by El Badboy! (talk • contribs) 11:34, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

 * OK, I agree with putting that back in because it is correct. Vmelkon (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Dangerous Idea
It appears that Dan Dennett used Darwinism several times in his 1995 book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Can we mention Dennett's usage somewhere in the Darwinism article? --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Lots of creationists use the term "Darwinism" incorrectly. Should we include EVERY book that uses that word incorrectly? It has nothing to do with the article. And personal opinion, terrible, TERRIBLE book. Lots of falsehoods and downright lies. 2601:1C0:8500:1161:6586:A758:6A65:700C (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Missing Darwin's principle of divergence
Charles Darwin admitted that he was stuck on a problem in his theory for some time, that being that the principle of natural selection only explains how an existing favourable variant would tend to be preserved within its environmental niche. According to Darwin himself, this was a crucial impediment such that natural selection, on its own, could not account for the biodiversity of life on our planet.

Albert Einstein encountered a similar impediment in his theorizing, wherein the inertial frames of reference in special relativity were a limited case of a more general theory that would incorporate gravity and describe accelerations of reference frames with respect to each other. Einstein had "a storm break loose in his mind" while riding the train in Bern for special relativity, and "the happiest thought of his life" of realizing the equivalence principle for GR.

Could it be that we are missing a key view as to how Darwin himself viewed this paradigm? For the principle of natural selection, Darwin read Thomas Malthus and "it at once struck [him]" how such a principle could operate to explain the persistence of a successful life form [within its niche/inertial frame]. But it was AFTER discovering this principle that CD was aforementioned stuck. Yet here we are, experts and laymen alike, decades later, saying "natural selection by itself explains all the biodiversity of life." Why then was Darwin stuck? How did this resolve?

Consider the following passage from Darwin's autobiography: "and I can remember the very spot in the road, whilst in my carriage, when to my joy the solution occurred to me.... The solution, as I believe, is that the modified offspring of all dominant and increasing forms tend to become adapted to many and highly diversified places in the economy of nature." Darwin termed this the principle of divergence, and he utilized BOTH principles in On the Origin of Species, frequently referencing the "economy of nature" and natural or physiological divisions of labor. An informed reader can notice the influence of Adam Smith's economic paradigm from Wealth of Nations (where an increase in productivity comes from specialization)--an author with whom Darwin was familiar and whom he cited. In particular, I would reference Darwin's multiple passages in OtOoS describing an increase in biomass within a particular region as a result of "specialization" of diverse forms.

I do think we are missing this perspective here: Charles Darwin's one-two punch of two principles, natural selection and divergence, akin to the special and general theories of relativity. Maybe Darwinism as a movement, post-Darwin himself, has focused exclusively on only the first principle; I'll make the case that if we are invoking his name, we should also invoke his understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.245.110.160 (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

After 150 years
Some OP says what follows is a copyright violation, of an article by Barbara Kay. In 2016, Noam Chomsky and seven other prominent professors of linguistics published an academic paper in which they admitted that, even 150 years after the neologism was borne from the pen of Huxley, and following the "explosion of research" in the modern field of linguistics, they are still mystified from whence comes the gift of language, which resides uniquely amongst the animal kingdom in the beast called man. For the record, and this falls under fair usage, the paraphrased article read: In 2016, eight prominent academics, including the world's most famous linguist, Noam Chomsky, published an article admitting that 150 years after the Theory of Evolution was birthed, and following an "explosion of research" in the modern discipline of linguistics, they cannot explain where language comes from. How is this a copyright violation? Need I continue? Magnovvig (talk) 19:31, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Kay talked about eight academics, I write about seven.
 * "published an academic paper" vs "published an article"
 * "admitted" not "admitting"
 * neologism and Huxley don't appear in Kay's work
 * I don't speak about "Theory of Evolution", whereas Kay does
 * "borne" not "birthed"
 * "modern field" not "modern discipline"
 * "they are still mystified from whence comes the gift of language" not "they cannot explain where language comes from."
 * no dangling participle in mine

 * Not going to sit here and debate with you such a blatant copyright violation. I reported it over at Copyright problems/2019 September 24. Each of your bullet points above could be presented as a classic example of Close paraphrasing, which is not a lesser form of plagiarism and copyright violation. It is the same as plagiarism and copyright violation. No distinction. Even if you rewrote this to remove the copyright violations, you're inserting the opinions of conservative columnist Barbara Kay from an op-ed article and treating her biased mis-characterizations as fact. It's obvious from your re-use of weasel words like admitted, and your editorializing even after 150 years in Wikipedia's voice as if it were fact, not opinion. Kay's opinion piece grossly misrepresents the academic paper she is referring to, misleading readers to think that scientists have retreated from Darwinian theory and have been forced to admit defeat, that evolutionary theory has failed. In fact, the conclusion can better be summed up, in their own words, that: "The evolution of our language phenotype may remain stubbornly resistant to empirical inquiry, and yet, as indicated in Table 1, there are potential empirical prospects, some near term, others quite remote." The researchers specifically credit Darwinian theory for any of this progress even being possible. The whole point boils down to yet another example of the God of the gaps used to prop up the pseudoscience of intelligent design. We could write a paragraph describing Kay's opinions (as opinions) but her opinions aren't even unique, significant, or interesting.What you've added has no place in a Wikipedia article for its gross WP:NPOV violations and misleading use of an op-ed as reliable source.Also, it's born, not borne. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:36, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's definitely borne, see "past participle of bear". Sheesh.
 * Now see WP:LIMITED.
 * Barbara Kay is an employee of the National Post. Her contributions are unlike an op-ed. Thus, you need to vary your complaint.
 * I can change the word "admitted" if you like. I doubt that your attack on Kay's and my use of the verb "admitted" can be characterized as weasel words. That's pretty strong language, don't you think?
 * I presented as fact the written work of a journalist who wrote about the subject at hand. Just because you happen disagree with her point in no way, shape or form makes your judgement relevant. You are welcome to add your contribution, and by this addition to flesh out the paragraph.
 * It is good that you quote from the Chomsky article. I will use that in an amended and expanded paragraph, as counter-point to Kay's.
 * Magnovvig (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree, this is textbook close paraphrasing. If you substitute words but retain the sentence structure, it's still a copyvio. Guettarda (talk) 21:07, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Search Close_paraphrasing for "A close paraphrase of one sentence from a book may be of low concern, while a close paraphrase of one paragraph of a two-paragraph article might be considered a serious violation."
 * Magnovvig (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

 * I agree this is copyvio, but it's also by Barbara Kay of the Barbara Kay controversy - is she really the only source for this? If so, and I doubt it, it doesn't belong at all, if not, then we need to find better sources. Doug Weller  talk 15:09, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks for the ping, but having revdel'd the edits, I think I need to stay out of any content decisions here. Guettarda (talk) 15:52, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The paper Kay is referring to is a perfectly good primary source. We can add a basic summary without getting into any interpretation. Neutral secondary sources might give us some analysis we can mention. What we don’t have is any good sources saying the Chomsky et al paper really did shake the foundations of Darwinism. Unlike religion, good scientific theories aren’t burdened with having to give infinitely fine grained explanations for absolutely everything. Claiming to have all the answers correlates more with quackery.--Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:02, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Although it's a bit old, the proposed source was indeed unusable. Opinion category, non-specialist author, on a site that's inadequate to cover aspects of biology.  Other than linguist Chomsky, the other source it was based on (that seems to be used in this article), is by a computer scientist and ID proponent, used to cite a biologist to make the point "Darwinism is an attempt to explain 'design without a designer', according to evolutionary biologist Francisco J. Ayala." but that's also true for all of science, so only really means that it doesn't begin with dogmatic premices but seeks answers that are practical to understand and make predictions according to the scientific method, etc.  I suppose that because it's in a section related to apologetics, this sentence could remain.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 21:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Article is Unnecessary
The term "Darwinism" is most often used as a pejorative term for evolution by those who are opposed to the theory (such as Creationists). I suppose their aim is to imply that evolution is merely one man's idea, rather than a well-researched and well-accepted science, or to imply that it is some sort of personality cult. Yes, the modern theory of evolution is loosely based on the 1859 proposals of Charles Darwin -- but has certainly changed over the past 160+ years. There is quite a lot we know now that Charles Darwin did not, and the theory now has many lines of supporting evidence beyond what Darwin was aware of. Why doesn't this topic merely direct readers to Evolution? Galt57 (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This article deals with the academic definition of "Darwinism," i.e., Evolutionary Biology as Charles Darwin and his students and followers originally understood it. Simply because Creationists and other Anti-Science Propagandists For Jesus have misappropriated the term to use as an anti-science slur does not obligate us to expunge this article anymore than the fact that people have appropriated the terms "banana" and "Oreo" to use as slurs does not force others to suspend their use of those objects.--Mr Fink (talk) 14:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As with "cladism", the way forward is to embrace the supposedly pejorative term. I agree that the article should stay as an entry point for readers, perhaps one of many entry points. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong
I think that Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong because there have been truly very many people who have believed in the religions which God created. Because of the large number of such people, the religions should not be considered fake. Thus, what a sacred book states, that is, that the first human, Adam, was created by God, should be convincing. Ruby2021 (talk) 12:12, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The talk page is not a forum. We reference reliable sources on wikipedia, not our own opinions on the matter. Thanks.  — Jess · Δ♥ 12:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Darwinism