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Eucharist

The Eucharist (from, lit. 'thanksgiving'), also known as Holy Communion, the Blessed Sacrament and the Lord's Supper, is a Christian rite that is considered a sacrament in most churches, and as an ordinance in others. Christians believe that the rite was instituted by Jesus at the Last Supper, the night before his crucifixion, giving his disciples bread and wine. Passages in the New Testament state that he commanded them to "do this in memory of me" while referring to the bread as "my body" and the cup of wine as "the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many". According to the Synoptic Gospels this was at a Passover meal.

The elements of the Eucharist, bread, either leavened or unleavened, and wine (non-alcoholic grape juice in some Protestant traditions), are consecrated on an altar or a communion table and consumed thereafter. The consecrated elements are the end product of the Eucharistic Prayer. Christians generally recognize a special presence of Christ in this rite, though they differ about exactly how, where, and when Christ is present.

The Catholic Church states that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ under the species of bread and wine. It maintains that by the consecration, the substances of the bread and wine actually become the substances of the body and blood of Jesus Christ (transubstantiation) while the appearances of the bread and wine remain unaltered (e.g. colour, taste, feel, and smell). The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches agree that an objective change occurs of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Lutherans believe the true body and blood of Christ are really present "in, with, and under" the forms of the bread and wine, known as the sacramental union. Reformed Christians believe in a real spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Anglican eucharistic theologies universally affirm the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, though Evangelical Anglicans believe that this is a spiritual presence, while Anglo-Catholics hold to a corporeal presence. As a result of these different understandings, "the Eucharist has been a central issue in the discussions and deliberations of the ecumenical movement."

Eucharist
The New Testament was originally written in the Greek language and the Greek noun εὐχαριστία, meaning "thanksgiving", appears a few times in it, while the related Greek verb εὐχαριστήσας is found several times in New Testament accounts of the Last Supper,  including the earliest such account:

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας), he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me'."

The term (thanksgiving) is that by which the rite is referred to in the Didache (a late 1st or early 2nd century document),     by Ignatius of Antioch (who died between 98 and 117) and by Justin Martyr (First Apology written between 155 and 157). Today, "the Eucharist" is the name still used by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Lutherans. Other Protestant denominations rarely use this term, preferring "Communion", "the Lord's Supper", "Remembrance", or "the Breaking of Bread". Latter-day Saints call it "the Sacrament".

Lord's Supper
In the First Epistle to the Corinthians Paul uses the term "Lord's Supper", in Greek Κυριακὸν δεῖπνον, in the early 50s of the 1st century:

"When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk."

So Paul's use of the term "Lord's Supper" in reference to the Corinthian banquet is powerful and interesting; but to be an actual name for the Christian meal, rather than a meaningful phrase connected with an ephemeral rhetorical contrast, it would have to have some history, previous or subsequent. Nevertheless, given its existence in the biblical text, "Lord's Supper" came into use after the Protestant Reformation and remains the predominant term among Evangelicals, such as Baptists and Pentecostals. They also refer to the observance as an ordinance rather than a sacrament.

Communion
Use of the term Communion (or Holy Communion) to refer to the Eucharistic rite began by some groups originating in the Protestant Reformation. Others, such as the Catholic Church, do not formally use this term for the rite, but instead mean by it the act of partaking of the consecrated elements; they speak of receiving Holy Communion at Mass or outside of it, they also use the term First Communion when one receives the Eucharist for the first time. The term Communion is derived from Latin communio ("sharing in common"), translated from the Greek κοινωνία in 1 Corinthians 10:16:

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

Breaking of bread
The phrase κλάσις τοῦ ἄρτου (, 'breaking of the bread'; in later liturgical Greek also ἀρτοκλασία ) appears in various related forms five times in the New Testament in contexts which, according to some, may refer to the celebration of the Eucharist, in either closer or symbolically more distant reference to the Last Supper. This term is used by the Plymouth Brethren.

Sacrament or Blessed Sacrament
The "Blessed Sacrament", the "Sacrament of the Altar", and other variations, are common terms used by Catholics, Lutherans and some Anglicans (Anglo-Catholics) for the consecrated elements, particularly when reserved in a tabernacle. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the term "The Sacrament" is used of the rite.

Mass
The term "Mass" is used in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran churches (especially the Churches of Sweden, Norway and Finland), and by some Anglicans. It derives from the Latin word missa, a dismissal: "Ite missa est", or "go, it is sent", the very last phrase of the service. That Latin word has come to imply "mission" as well because the congregation is sent out to serve Christ.

At least in the Catholic Church, the Mass is a long rite in two parts: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The former consists of readings from the Bible and a homily, or sermon, given by a priest or deacon. The latter, which follows seamlessly, includes the "Offering" of the bread and wine at the altar, their consecration by the priest through prayer, and their reception by the congregation in Holy Communion. Among the many other terms used in the Catholic Church are "Holy Mass", "the Memorial of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of the Lord", the "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass", and the "Holy Mysteries".

Divine Liturgy and Divine Service
The term Divine Liturgy (Θεία Λειτουργία) is used in Byzantine Rite traditions, whether in the Eastern Orthodox Church or among the Eastern Catholic Churches. These also speak of "the Divine Mysteries", especially in reference to the consecrated elements, which they also call "the Holy Gifts".

The term Divine Service (Gottesdienst) has often been used to refer to Christian worship more generally and is still used in Lutheran churches, in addition to the terms "Eucharist", "Mass" and "Holy Communion". Historically this refers (like the term "worship" itself) to service of God, although more recently it has been associated with the idea that God is serving the congregants in the liturgy.

Other Eastern rites
Some Eastern rites have yet more names for Eucharist. Holy Qurbana is common in Syriac Christianity and Badarak in the Armenian Rite; in the Alexandrian Rite, the term Prosfora (from the Greek προσφορά) is common in Coptic Christianity and Keddase in Ethiopian and Eritrean Christianity.

Biblical basis
The Last Supper appears in all three Synoptic Gospels: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It also is found in the First Epistle to the Corinthians, which suggests how early Christians celebrated what Paul the Apostle called the Lord's Supper. Although the Gospel of John does not reference the Last Supper explicitly, some argue that it contains theological allusions to the early Christian celebration of the Eucharist, especially in the chapter 6 Bread of Life Discourse but also in other passages.

Gospels
In the synoptic gospels, Mark 14:22–25, Matthew 26:26–29 and Luke 22:13–20 depict Jesus as presiding over the Last Supper prior to his crucifixion. The versions in Matthew and Mark are almost identical, but the Gospel of Luke presents a textual difference, in that a few manuscripts omit the second half of verse 19 and all of verse 20 ("given for you […] poured out for you"), which are found in the vast majority of ancient witnesses to the text. If the shorter text is the original one, then Luke's account is independent of both that of Paul and that of Matthew/Mark. If the majority longer text comes from the author of the third gospel, then this version is very similar to that of Paul in 1 Corinthians, being somewhat fuller in its description of the early part of the Supper, particularly in making specific mention of a cup being blessed before the bread was broken.

In the one prayer given to posterity by Jesus, the Lord's Prayer, the word epiousion—which is otherwise unknown in Classical Greek literature—was interpreted by some early Christian writers as meaning "super-substantial", and hence a possible reference to the Eucharist as the Bread of Life.

In the Gospel of John, however, the account of the Last Supper does not mention Jesus taking bread and "the cup" and speaking of them as his body and blood; instead, it recounts other events: his humble act of washing the disciples' feet, the prophecy of the betrayal, which set in motion the events that would lead to the cross, and his long discourse in response to some questions posed by his followers, in which he went on to speak of the importance of the unity of the disciples with him, with each other, and with God. Some would find in this unity and in the washing of the feet the deeper meaning of the Communion bread in the other three gospels. In John 6:26–65, a long discourse is attributed to Jesus that deals with the subject of the living bread; John 6:51–59 also contains echoes of Eucharistic language.

First Epistle to the Corinthians
1 Corinthians 11:23–25 gives the earliest recorded description of Jesus' Last Supper: "The Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.'" The Greek word used in the passage for 'remembrance' is ἀνάμνησιν, which itself has a much richer theological history than the English word "remember".

The expression "The Lord's Supper", derived from Paul's usage in 1 Corinthians 11:17–34, may have originally referred to the Agape feast (or love feast), the shared communal meal with which the Eucharist was originally associated. The Agape feast is mentioned in Jude 12 but "The Lord's Supper" is now commonly used in reference to a celebration involving no food other than the sacramental bread and wine.

Early Christian sources
The Didache (Greek: Διδαχή, "teaching") is an Early Church treatise that includes instructions for baptism and the Eucharist. Most scholars date it to the late 1st century, and distinguish in it two separate Eucharistic traditions, the earlier tradition in chapter 10 and the later one preceding it in chapter 9. The Eucharist is mentioned again in chapter 14.

Ignatius of Antioch (born c. 35 or 50, died between 98 and 117), one of the Apostolic Fathers, mentions the Eucharist as "the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ":

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. [...] Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it."

"Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth ] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God."

Justin Martyr (born c. 100, died c. 165) mentions in this regard:

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

Paschasius Radbertus (785–865) was a Carolingian theologian, and the abbot of Corbie, whose best-known and influential work is an exposition on the nature of the Eucharist written around 831, entitled De Corpore et Sanguine Domini. In it, Paschasius agrees with St Ambrose in affirming that the Eucharist contains the true, historical body of Jesus Christ. According to Paschasius, God is truth itself, and therefore, his words and actions must be true. Christ's proclamation at the Last Supper that the bread and wine were his body and blood must be taken literally, since God is truth. He thus believes that the transubstantiation of the bread and wine offered in the Eucharist really occurs. Only if the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ can a Christian know it is salvific.

Jews and the Eucharist
The concept of the Jews both destroying and partaking in some perverted version of the Eucharist has been a vessel to promote anti-Judaism and anti-Jewish ideology and violence. In medieval times, Jews were often depicted stabbing or in some other way physically harming communion wafers. These characterizations drew parallels to the idea that the Jews killed Christ; murdering this transubstantiation or "host" was thought of as a repetition of the event. Jewish people's eagerness to destroy hosts were also a variation of blood libel charges, with Jews being accused of murdering bodies of Christ, whether they be communion wafers or Christian children. The blood libel charges and the concept of Eucharist are also related in the belief that blood is efficacious, meaning it has some sort of divine power.

Eucharistic theology
Most Christians, even those who deny that there is any real change in the elements used, recognize a special presence of Christ in this rite. However, Christians differ about exactly how, where and how long Christ is present in it. Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Church of the East teach that the reality (the "substance") of the elements of bread and wine is wholly changed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, while the appearances (the "species") remain. Transubstantiation ("change of the substance") is the term used by Catholics to denote is changed, not to explain  the change occurs, since the Catholic Church teaches that "the signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ". The Orthodox use various terms such as transelementation, but no explanation is official as they prefer to leave it a mystery.

Lutherans believe Christ to be "truly and substantially present" with the bread and wine that are seen in the Eucharist, in a manner referred to as the sacramental union. They attribute the real presence of Jesus' living body to his word spoken in the Eucharist, and not to the faith of those receiving it. They also believe that "forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation" are given through the words of Christ in the Eucharist to those who believe his words ("given and shed for you").

Reformed Christians also believe Christ to be present in the Eucharist, but describe this presence as a spiritual presence, not a physical one. Anglicans adhere to a range of views depending on churchmanship although the teaching in the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles holds that the body of Christ is received by the faithful only in a heavenly and spiritual manner, a doctrine also taught in the Methodist Articles of Religion.

Christians adhering to the theology of Memorialism, such as the Anabaptist Churches, do not believe in the concept of the real presence, believing that the Eucharist is only a ceremonial remembrance or memorial of the death of Christ.

The Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry document of the World Council of Churches, attempting to present the common understanding of the Eucharist on the part of the generality of Christians, describes it as "essentially the sacrament of the gift which God makes to us in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit", "Thanksgiving to the Father", "Anamnesis or Memorial of Christ", "the sacrament of the unique sacrifice of Christ, who ever lives to make intercession for us", "the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, the sacrament of his real presence", "Invocation of the Spirit", "Communion of the Faithful", and "Meal of the Kingdom".

Ritual and liturgy
Many Christian denominations classify the Eucharist as a sacrament. Some Protestants (though not all) prefer to instead call it an ordinance, viewing it not as a specific channel of divine grace but as an expression of faith and of obedience to Christ.

Catholic Church

In the Catholic Church the Eucharist is considered as a sacrament, according to the church the Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch." ("Pasch" is a word that sometimes means Easter, sometimes Passover.)

As a sacrifice
In the Eucharist the same sacrifice that Jesus made only once on the cross is made present at every Mass. According to Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The Eucharist is the very sacrifice of the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus which he instituted to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until his return in glory."

"When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. [...] The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the same and only sacrifice offered once for all on the cross"

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." In the holy sacrifice of the Mass, "it is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. And it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice."

As a real presence
According to the Catholic Church Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist in a true, real and substantial way, with his body, blood, soul and divinity. By the consecration, the substances of the bread and wine actually become the substances of the body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation) while the appearances or "species" of the bread and wine remain unaltered (e.g. colour, taste, feel, and smell). This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist, that is, until the Eucharist is digested, physically destroyed, or decays by some natural process (at which point, theologian Thomas Aquinas argued, the substance of the bread and wine cannot return).

The Fourth Council of the Lateran in 1215 spoke of the bread and wine as "transubstantiated" into the body and blood of Christ: "His body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine, the bread and wine having been transubstantiated, by God's power, into his body and blood". In 1551, the Council of Trent definitively declared: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

The church holds that the body and blood of Jesus can no longer be truly separated. Where one is, the other must be. Therefore, although the priest (or extraordinary minister of Holy Communion) says "The Body of Christ" when administering the Host and "The Blood of Christ" when presenting the chalice, the communicant who receives either one receives Christ, whole and entire. "Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ."

The Catholic Church sees as the main basis for this belief the words of Jesus himself at his Last Supper: the Synoptic Gospels and Paul's recount that Jesus at the time of taking the bread and the cup said: "This is my body […] this is my blood." The Catholic understanding of these words, from the Patristic authors onward, has emphasized their roots in the covenantal history of the Old Testament. The interpretation of Christ's words against this Old Testament background coheres with and supports belief in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Reception and devotions
According to the Catholic Church doctrine receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin is a sacrilege and only those who are in a state of grace, that is, without any mortal sin, can receive it. Based on 1 Corinthians 11:27–29, it affirms the following: "Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession."

Since the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, "the worship due to the sacrament of the Eucharist, whether during the celebration of the Mass or outside it, is the worship of latria, that is, the adoration given to God alone."" The Blessed Sacrament can be exposed (displayed) on an altar in a monstrance. Rites involving the exposure of the Blessed Sacrament include Benediction and eucharistic adoration. According to Catholic theology, the host, after the Rite of Consecration, is no longer bread, but is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. Catholics believe that Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God prefigured in the Old Testament Passover. Unless the flesh of that Passover sacrificial lamb was consumed, the members of the household would not be saved from death. As the Passover was the Old Covenant, so the Eucharist became the New Covenant. (Matthew 26:26–28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22: 19–20, and John 6:48–58)

Eastern Orthodoxy

Within Eastern Christianity, the Eucharistic service is called the "Divine Liturgy" (Byzantine Rite) or similar names in other rites. It comprises two main divisions: the first is the "Liturgy of the Catechumens" which consists of introductory litanies, antiphons and scripture readings, culminating in a reading from one of the Gospels and, often, a homily; the second is the "Liturgy of the Faithful" in which the Eucharist is offered, consecrated, and received as Holy Communion. Within the latter, the actual Eucharistic prayer is called the anaphora, (literally "offering" or "carrying up", from the Greek ἀνα- + φέρω). In the Rite of Constantinople, two different anaphoras are currently used: one is attributed to John Chrysostom, the other to Basil the Great. In the Oriental Orthodox Church, a variety of anaphoras are used, but all are similar in structure to those of the Constantinopolitan Rite, in which the Anaphora of Saint John Chrysostom is used most days of the year; Saint Basil's is offered on the Sundays of Great Lent, the eves of Christmas and Theophany, Holy Thursday, Holy Saturday, and upon his feast day (1 January). At the conclusion of the Anaphora the bread and wine are held to be the body and blood of Christ. Unlike the Latin Church, the Byzantine Rite uses leavened bread, with the leaven symbolizing the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Greek Orthodox Church utilizes leavened bread in their celebration.

Conventionally this change in the elements is understood to be accomplished at the epiclesis ("invocation") by which the Holy Spirit is invoked and the consecration of the bread and wine as the genuine body and blood of Christ is specifically requested, but since the anaphora as a whole is considered a unitary (albeit lengthy) prayer, no one moment within it can readily be singled out.

Anabaptists
Anabaptist denominations, such as the Mennonites and German Baptist Brethren Churches like the Church of the Brethren churches and congregations have the Agape feast, footwashing, as well as the serving of the bread and wine in the celebration of the Lovefeast. In the more modern groups, Communion is only the serving of the Lord's Supper. In the communion meal, the members of the Mennonite churches renew their covenant with God and with each other.

Moravian/Hussite
The Moravian Church adheres to a view known as the "sacramental presence", teaching that in the sacrament of Holy Communion: "Christ gives his body and blood according to his promise to all who partake of the elements. When we eat and drink the bread and the wine of the Supper with expectant faith, we thereby have communion with the body and blood of our Lord and receive the forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation. In this sense, the bread and wine are rightly said to be Christ's body and blood which he gives to his disciples." Nicolaus Zinzendorf, a bishop of the Moravian Church, stated that Holy Communion is the "most intimate of all connection with the person of the Saviour." The Order of Service for the observance of the Lord's Supper includes a salutation, hymns, the right hand of fellowship, prayer, consecration of the elements, distribution of the elements, partaking of the elements, and a benediction. Moravian Christians traditionally practice footwashing before partaking in the Lord's Supper, although in certain Moravian congregations, this rite is observed chiefly on Maundy Thursday.

Anglican
Anglican theology on the matter of the Eucharist is nuanced. The Eucharist is neither wholly a matter of transubstantiation nor simply devotional and memorialist in orientation. The Anglican churches do not adhere to the belief that the Lord's Supper is merely a devotional reflection on Christ's death. For some Anglicans, Christ is spiritually present in the fullness of his person in the Eucharist.

The Church of England itself has repeatedly refused to make official any definition of "the presence of Christ". Church authorities prefer to leave it a mystery while proclaiming the consecrated bread and wine to be "spiritual food" of "Christ's Most Precious Body and Blood"; the bread and wine are an "outward sign of an inner grace". The words of administration at communion allow for real presence or for a real but spiritual presence (Calvinist receptionism and virtualism). This concept was congenial to most Anglicans well into the 19th century. From the 1840s, the Tractarians reintroduced the idea of "the real presence" to suggest a corporeal presence, which could be done since the language of the BCP rite referred to the body and blood of Christ without details as well as referring to these as spiritual food at other places in the text. Both are found in the Latin and other rites, but in the former, a definite interpretation as corporeal is applied.

Both receptionism and virtualism assert the real presence. The former places emphasis on the recipient and the latter states "the presence" is confected by the power of the Holy Spirit but not in Christ's natural body. His presence is objective and does not depend on its existence from the faith of the recipient. The liturgy petitions that elements "be" rather than "become" the body and blood of Christ leaving aside any theory of a change in the natural elements: bread and wine are the outer reality and "the presence" is the inner invisible except as perceived in faith.

In 1789, the Episcopal Church in the United States restored explicit language that the Eucharist is an oblation (sacrifice) to God. Subsequent revisions of the Book of Common Prayer by member churches of the Anglican Communion have done likewise (the Church of England did so in the proposed 1928 prayer book).

The so-called "Black Rubric" in the 1552 prayer book, which allowed kneeling when receiving Holy Communion was omitted in the 1559 edition at Queen Elizabeth I's insistence. It was reinstated in the 1662 prayer book, modified to deny any corporal presence of Christ's natural flesh and blood, which are in Heaven and not here.

Baptists
The bread and "fruit of the vine" indicated in Matthew, Mark and Luke as the elements of the Lord's Supper are interpreted by many Baptists as unleavened bread (although leavened bread is often used) and, in line with the historical stance of some Baptist groups (since the mid-19th century) against partaking of alcoholic beverages, grape juice, which they commonly refer to simply as "the Cup". The unleavened bread also underscores the symbolic belief attributed to Christ's breaking the bread and saying that it was his body. A soda cracker is often used.

Some Baptists consider the Communion to be primarily an act of remembrance of Christ's atonement, and a time of renewal of personal commitment (memorialism) such as Free Will Baptists, while others, such as Particular Baptists affirm the Reformed doctrine of a pneumatic presence, which is expressed in the Second London Baptist Confession, specifically in Chapter 30, Articles 3 and 7. This view is prevalent among Southern Baptists, those in the Founders movement (a Calvinistic movement among some Independent Baptists),and several individuals in other Baptist associations.

Communion practices and frequency vary among congregations. A typical practice is to have small cups of juice and plates of broken bread distributed to the seated congregation. In other congregations, communicants may proceed to the altar to receive the elements, then return to their seats. A widely accepted practice is for all to receive and hold the elements until everyone is served, then consume the bread and cup in unison. Usually, music is performed and Scripture such as the precise verses of Jesus speaking at the Last Supper is read during the receiving of the elements.

Some Baptist churches are closed-Communionists (even requiring full membership in the local church congregation before partaking), with others being partially or fully open-Communionists. It is rare to find a Baptist church where the Lord's Supper is observed every Sunday; most observe monthly or quarterly, with some holding Communion only during a designated Communion service or following a worship service. Adults and children in attendance who have not made a profession of faith in Christ are expected to not participate.

Lutheran
Lutherans believe that the body and blood of Christ are "truly and substantially present in, with, and under the forms" of the consecrated bread and wine (the elements), so that communicants eat and drink the body and blood of Christ himself as well as the bread and wine in the Eucharistic sacrament. The Lutheran doctrine of the Real Presence is more accurately and formally known as the "sacramental union". Others have erroneously called this consubstantiation, a Lollardist doctrine, though this term is specifically rejected by Lutheran churches and theologians since it creates confusion about the actual doctrine and subjects the doctrine to the control of a non-biblical philosophical concept in the same manner as, in their view, does the term "transubstantiation".

While an official movement exists in Lutheran congregations to celebrate Eucharist weekly, using formal rites very similar to the Catholic and "high" Anglican services, it was historically common for congregations to celebrate monthly or even quarterly. Even in congregations where Eucharist is offered weekly, there is not a requirement that every church service be a Eucharistic service, nor that all members of a congregation must receive it weekly.

Open Brethren and Exclusive Brethren
Among Open assemblies, also termed Plymouth Brethren, the Eucharist is more commonly called the Breaking of Bread or the Lord's Supper. They believe it is only a symbolic reenactment of the Last Supper and a memorial, and is central to the worship of both individual and assembly. In principle, the service is open to all baptized Christians, but an individual's eligibility to participate depends on the views of each particular assembly. The service takes the form of non-liturgical, open worship with all male participants allowed to pray audibly and select hymns or readings. The breaking of bread itself typically consists of one leavened loaf, which is prayed over and broken by a participant in the meeting and then shared around. The wine is poured from a single container into one or several vessels, and these are again shared around.

The Exclusive Brethren follow a similar practice to the Open Brethren. They also call the Eucharist the Breaking of Bread or the Lord's Supper.

Reformed (Continental Reformed, Presbyterian and Congregationalist)
In the Reformed tradition (which includes the Continental Reformed Churches, the Presbyterian Churches, and the Congregationalist Churches), the Eucharist is variously administered. The Calvinist view of the Sacrament sees a real presence of Christ in the supper which differs both from the objective ontological presence of the Catholic view, and from the real absence of Christ and the mental recollection of the memorialism of the Zwinglians and their successors.

The bread and wine become the means by which the believer has real communion with Christ in his death and Christ's body and blood are present to the faith of the believer as really as the bread and wine are present to their senses but this presence is "spiritual", that is the work of the Holy Spirit. There is no standard frequency; John Calvin desired weekly communion, but the city council only approved monthly, and monthly celebration has become the most common practice in Reformed churches today.

Many, on the other hand, follow John Knox in celebration of the Lord's supper on a quarterly basis, to give proper time for reflection and inward consideration of one's own state and sin. Recently, Presbyterian and Reformed Churches have been considering whether to restore more frequent communion, including weekly communion in more churches, considering that infrequent communion was derived from a memorialist view of the Lord's Supper, rather than Calvin's view of the sacrament as a means of grace. Some churches use bread without any raising agent (whether yeast or another leaven.) in view of the use of unleavened bread at Jewish Passover meals, while others use any bread available.

The Presbyterian Church (USA), for instance, prescribes "bread common to the culture". Harking back to the regulative principle of worship, the Reformed tradition had long eschewed coming forward to receive communion, preferring to have the elements distributed throughout the congregation by the presbyters (elders) more in the style of a shared meal. Over the last half a century it is much more common in Presbyterian churches to have Holy Communion monthly or on a weekly basis. It is also becoming common to receive the elements by intinction (receiving a piece of consecrated bread or wafer, dipping it in the blessed wine, and consuming it). Wine and grape juice are both used, depending on the congregation. Most Reformed churches practice "open communion", i.e., all believers who are united to a church of like faith and practice, and who are not living in sin, would be allowed to join in the Sacrament.

Methodist
The British Catechism for the use of the people called Methodists states that, "[in the Eucharist] Jesus Christ is present with his worshipping people and gives himself to them as their Lord and Saviour". Methodist theology of this sacrament is reflected in one of the fathers of the movement, Charles Wesley, who wrote a Eucharistic hymn with the following stanza: We need not now go up to Heaven, To bring the long sought Saviour down; Thou art to all already given, Thou dost e'en now Thy banquet crown: To every faithful soul appear, And show Thy real presence here!

Reflecting Wesleyan covenant theology, Methodists also believe that the Lord's Supper is a sign and seal of the covenant of grace.

In many Methodist denominations, non-alcoholic wine (grape juice) is used, so as to include those who do not take alcohol for any reason, as well as a commitment to the Church's historical support of temperance. Variations of the Eucharistic Prayer are provided for various occasions, including communion of the sick and brief forms for occasions that call for greater brevity. Though the ritual is standardized, there is great variation amongst Methodist churches, from typically high-church to low-church, in the enactment and style of celebration. Methodist clergy are not required to be vested when celebrating the Eucharist.

John Wesley, a founder of Methodism, said that it was the duty of Christians to receive the sacrament as often as possible. Methodists in the United States are encouraged to celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday, though it is typically celebrated on the first Sunday of each month, while a few go as long as celebrating quarterly (a tradition dating back to the days of circuit riders that served multiple churches). Communicants may receive standing, kneeling, or while seated. Gaining more wide acceptance is the practice of receiving by intinction (receiving a piece of consecrated bread or wafer, dipping it in the blessed wine, and consuming it). The most common alternative to intinction is for the communicants to receive the consecrated juice using small, individual, specially made glass or plastic cups known as communion cups. The United Methodist Church practices open communion (which it describes as an "open table"), inviting "all who intend a Christian life, together with their children" to receive the eucharistic elements. The Doctrines and Discipline of the Methodist Church specifies, on days during which Holy Communion is celebrated, that "Upon entering the church let the communicants bow in prayer and in the spirit of prayer and meditation approach the Blessed Sacrament."

Nondenominational Christians
Many non-denominational Christians, including the Churches of Christ, receive communion every Sunday. Others, including Evangelical churches such as the Church of God and Calvary Chapel, typically receive communion on a monthly or periodic basis. Many non-denominational Christians hold to the Biblical autonomy of local churches and have no universal requirement among congregations.

Some Churches of Christ, among others, use grape juice and unleavened wafers or unleavened bread and practice open communion.

Edessan Rite (Church of the East)
Holy Qurbana or Qurbana Qaddisha, the "Holy Offering" or "Holy Sacrifice", refers to the Eucharist as celebrated according to the East Syriac Christianity. The main Anaphora of the East Syrian tradition is the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari.

Syro-Antiochene Rite (West Syriac)
Holy Qurobo or Qurobo Qadisho refers to the Eucharist as celebrated in the West Syrian traditions of Syriac Christianity, while that of the West Syrian tradition is the Liturgy of Saint James.

Both are extremely old, going back at least to the third century, and are the oldest extant liturgies continually in use.

Irvingian
In the Irvingian Churches, Holy Communion, along with Holy Baptism and Holy Sealing, is one of the three sacraments. It is the focus of the Divine Service in the liturgies of Irvingism.

Edward Irving, who founded the Irvingian Churches, such as the New Apostolic Church, taught the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, emphasizing "the humiliated humanity of Christ in the Lord's Supper." Additionally, the Irvingian Churches affirm the "real presence of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion": "Jesus Christ is in the midst of the congregation as the crucified, risen, and returning Lord. Thus His once-brought sacrifice is also present in that its effect grants the individual access to salvation. In this way, the celebration of Holy Communion causes the partakers to repeatedly envision the sacrificial death of the Lord, which enables them to proclaim it with conviction (1 Corinthians 11: 26)."

In the Irvingian tradition of Restorationist Christianity, consubstantiation is taught as the explanation of how the real presence is effected in the liturgy.

Seventh-day Adventists
In the Seventh-day Adventist Church the Holy Communion service customarily is celebrated once per quarter. The service includes the ordinance of footwashing and the Lord's Supper. Unleavened bread and unfermented (non-alcoholic) grape juice is used. Open communion is practised: all who have committed their lives to the Saviour may participate. The communion service must be conducted by an ordained pastor, minister or church elder.

Jehovah's Witnesses
Jehovah's Witnesses commemorate Jesus' death annually on the evening that corresponds to the Passover, Nisan 14, according to the ancient Jewish calendar. They generally refer to the observance as "the Lord's Evening Meal" or the "Memorial of Christ's Death". They believe the event is the only annual religious observance commanded for Christians in the Bible.

Of those who attend the Memorial, a small minority worldwide partake of the wine and unleavened bread. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven, to serve as under-priests and co-rulers with Christ the King in God's Kingdom. They are referred to as the "anointed" class. They believe that the baptized "other sheep" also benefit from the ransom sacrifice, and are respectful observers and viewers of the Lord's Supper, but they hope to obtain everlasting life in Paradise restored on earth.

The Memorial, held after sundown, includes a sermon on the meaning and importance of the celebration and gathering, and includes the circulation of unadulterated red wine and unleavened bread (matzo). Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the bread represents Jesus' perfect body which he gave on behalf of mankind, and that the wine represents his perfect blood which he shed to redeem fallen man from inherited sin and death. The wine and the bread (sometimes referred to as "emblems") are viewed as symbolic and commemorative; the Witnesses do not believe in transubstantiation or consubstantiation.

Latter-day Saints
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the "Holy Sacrament of the Lord's Supper", more simply referred to as the Sacrament, is administered every Sunday (except General Conference or other special Sunday meeting) in each Latter-Day Saint Ward or branch worldwide at the beginning of Sacrament meeting. The Sacrament, which consists of both ordinary bread and water (rather than wine or grape juice), is prepared by priesthood holders prior to the beginning of the meeting. At the beginning of the Sacrament, priests say specific prayers to bless the bread and water. The Sacrament is passed row-by-row to the congregation by priesthood holders (typically deacons).

The prayer recited for the bread and the water is found in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. The prayer contains the above essentials given by Jesus: "Always remember him, and keep his commandments […] that they may always have his Spirit to be with them." (Moroni, 4:3.)

Salvation Army
While the Salvation Army does not reject the Eucharistic practices of other churches or deny that their members truly receive grace through this sacrament, it does not practice the sacraments of Communion or baptism. This is because they believe that these are unnecessary for the living of a Christian life, and because in the opinion of Salvation Army founders William and Catherine Booth, the sacrament placed too much stress on outward ritual and too little on inward spiritual conversion.

Quakers
Emphasizing the inward spiritual experience of their adherents over any outward ritual, Quakers (members of the Religious Society of Friends) generally do not baptize or observe Communion.

Christian Scientists
Although the early Church of Christ, Scientist observed Communion, founder Mary Baker Eddy eventually discouraged the physical ritual as she believed it distracted from the true spiritual nature of the sacrament. As such, Christian Scientists do not observe physical communion with bread and wine, but spiritual communion at two special Sunday services each year by "uniting together with Christ in silent prayer and on bended knee."

Shakers
The United Society of Believers (commonly known as Shakers) do not take communion, instead viewing every meal as a Eucharistic feast.

Open and closed communion

Christian denominations differ in their understanding of whether they may celebrate the Eucharist with those with whom they are not in full communion. The apologist Justin Martyr (c. 150) wrote of the Eucharist "of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined." This was continued in the practice of dismissing the catechumens (those still undergoing instruction and not yet baptized) before the sacramental part of the liturgy, a custom which has left traces in the expression "Mass of the Catechumens" and in the Byzantine Rite exclamation by the deacon or priest, "The doors! The doors!", just before recitation of the Creed.

Churches such as the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches practice closed communion under normal circumstances. However, the Catholic Church allows administration of the Eucharist, at their spontaneous request, to properly disposed members of the eastern churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Church of the East) not in full communion with it and of other churches that the Holy See judges to be sacramentally in the same position as these churches; and in grave and pressing need, such as danger of death, it allows the Eucharist to be administered also to individuals who do not belong to these churches but who share the Catholic Church's faith in the reality of the Eucharist and have no access to a minister of their own community. Some Protestant communities exclude non-members from Communion.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) practices open communion, provided those who receive are baptized, but the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) practice closed communion, excluding non-members and requiring communicants to have been given catechetical instruction. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada, the Evangelical Church in Germany, the Church of Sweden, and many other Lutheran churches outside of the U.S. also practice open communion.

Some use the term "close communion" for restriction to members of the same denomination, and "closed communion" for restriction to members of the local congregation alone.

Most Protestant communities including Congregational churches, the Church of the Nazarene, the Assemblies of God, Methodists, most Presbyterians and Baptists, Anglicans, and Churches of Christ and other non-denominational churches practice various forms of open communion. Some churches do not limit it to only members of the congregation, but to any people in attendance (regardless of Christian affiliation) who consider themselves to be Christian. Others require that the communicant be a baptized person, or a member of a church of that denomination or a denomination of "like faith and practice". Some Progressive Christian congregations offer communion to any individual who wishes to commemorate the life and teachings of Christ, regardless of religious affiliation.

Most Latter-Day Saint churches practice closed communion; one notable exception is the Community of Christ, the second-largest denomination in this movement. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the largest of the LDS denominations) technically practice a closed communion, their official direction to local Church leaders (in Handbook 2, section 20.4.1, last paragraph) is as follows: "Although the sacrament is for Church members, the bishopric should not announce that it will be passed to members only, and nothing should be done to prevent nonmembers from partaking of it."

In the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church the Eucharist is only given to those who have come prepared to receive the life-giving body and blood. Therefore, in a manner to worthily receive, believers fast the night before the liturgy, from around 6pm or the conclusion of evening prayer, and remain fasting until they receive Holy Qurbana the next morning. Additionally, members who plan to receive the holy communion have to follow a strict guide of prescribed prayers from the Shehimo, or the book of common prayers, for the week.

Catholic
The Catholic Church requires its members to receive the sacrament of Penance or Reconciliation before taking Communion if they are aware of having committed a mortal sin and to prepare by fasting, prayer, and other works of piety.

Eastern Orthodox
Traditionally, the Eastern Orthodox church has required its members to have observed all church-appointed fasts (most weeks, this will be at least Wednesday and Friday) for the week prior to partaking of communion, and to fast from all food and water from midnight the night before. In addition, Orthodox Christians are to have made a recent confession to their priest (the frequency varying with one's particular priest), and they must be at peace with all others, meaning that they hold no grudges or anger against anyone. In addition, one is expected to attend Vespers or the All-Night Vigil, if offered, on the night before receiving communion. Furthermore, various pre-communion prayers have been composed, which many (but not all) Orthodox churches require or at least strongly encourage members to say privately before coming to the Eucharist. However, all this will typically vary from priest to priest and jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but abstaining from food and water for several hours beforehand is a fairly universal rule.

Protestant confessions
Many Protestant congregations generally reserve a period of time for self-examination and private, silent confession just before partaking in the Lord's Supper.

Adoration

Eucharistic adoration is a practice in the Latin Church, Anglo-Catholic and some Lutheran traditions, in which the Blessed Sacrament is exposed to and adored by the faithful. When this exposure and adoration is constant (twenty-four hours a day), it is called "Perpetual Adoration". In a parish, this is usually done by volunteer parishioners; in a monastery or convent, it is done by the resident monks or nuns. In the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist is displayed in a monstrance, typically placed on an altar, at times with a light focused on it, or with candles flanking it.

Gluten
The gluten in wheat bread is dangerous to people with celiac disease and other gluten-related disorders, such as non-celiac gluten sensitivity and wheat allergy. For the Catholic Church, this issue was addressed in the 24 July 2003 letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which summarized and clarified earlier declarations. The Catholic Church believes that the matter for the Eucharist must be wheaten bread and fermented wine from grapes: it holds that, if the gluten has been entirely removed, the result is not true wheaten bread. For celiacs, but not generally, it allows low-gluten bread. It also permits Holy Communion to be received under the form of either bread or wine alone, except by a priest who is celebrating Mass without other priests or as principal celebrant. Many Protestant churches offer communicants gluten-free alternatives to wheaten bread, usually in the form of a rice-based or other gluten-free wafer.

Alcohol
The Catholic Church believes that grape juice that has not begun even minimally to ferment cannot be accepted as wine, which it sees as essential for celebration of the Eucharist. For non-alcoholics, but not generally, it allows the use of mustum (grape juice in which fermentation has begun but has been suspended without altering the nature of the juice), and it holds that "since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons, this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite."

As already indicated, the one exception is in the case of a priest celebrating Mass without other priests or as principal celebrant. The water that in the Roman Rite is prescribed to be mixed with the wine must be only a relatively small quantity. The practice of the Coptic Church is that the mixture should be two parts wine to one part water.

Some Protestant churches allow communion in a non-alcoholic form, either normatively or as a pastoral exception. Since the invention of the necessary technology, grape juice which has been pasteurized to stop the fermentation process the juice naturally undergoes and de-alcoholized wine from which most of the alcohol has been removed (between 0.5% and 2% remains) are commonly used, and more rarely water may be offered. Exclusive use of unfermented grape juice is common in Baptist churches, the United Methodist Church, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Churches of Christ, Church of God (Anderson, Indiana), some Lutherans, Assemblies of God, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, the Christian Missionary Alliance, and other American independent Protestant churches.

Transmission of diseases
Risk of infectious disease transmission related to use of a common communion cup exists but it is low. No case of transmission of an infectious disease related to a common communion cup has ever been documented. Experimental studies have demonstrated that infectious diseases can be transmitted. The most likely diseases to be transmitted would be common viral illnesses such as the common cold. A study of 681 individuals found that taking communion up to daily from a common cup did not increase the risk of infection beyond that of those who did not attend services at all.

In influenza epidemics, some churches suspend the giving wine at communion, for fear of spreading the disease. This is in full accord with Catholic Church belief that communion under the form of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. However, the same measure has also been taken by churches that normally insist on the importance of receiving communion under both forms. This was done in 2009 by the Church of England.

Some fear contagion through the handling involved in distributing the hosts to the communicants, even if they are placed on the hand rather than on the tongue. Accordingly, some churches use mechanical wafer dispensers or "pillow packs" (communion wafers with wine inside them). While these methods of distributing communion are not generally accepted in Catholic parishes, one parish provides a mechanical dispenser to allow those intending to commune to place in a bowl, without touching them by hand, the hosts for use in the celebration.

Eucharistic theology

 * Eucharistic theology
 * Eucharistic miracle
 * Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Liturgical worship

 * Eucharistic Prayers
 * Holy Qurbana
 * Holy Qurobo
 * Armenian Rite
 * Divine Liturgy
 * Mass
 * Canon of the Mass

Eucharistic practice

 * Closed communion
 * Communion under both kinds
 * First Communion
 * Fraction (religion)
 * Intinction
 * Open communion
 * Sacramental wine
 * Thanksgiving after Communion

Views of different churches

 * Eucharist in Anglicanism
 * Eucharist in the Catholic Church
 * Sacrament (Latter Day Saints)
 * Sacramental union (Lutheran)
 * Transubstantiation (Catholicism)

Sacramental theology

 * Baptism
 * Concomitance
 * Sacrament

History

 * Origin of the Eucharist (The Last Supper)
 * Marburg Colloquy (1529)
 * Sacramentarians (Protestant Reformation period, approx. 16th Century)
 * The Adoration of the Sacrament by Martin Luther (1523)
 * Confession Concerning Christ's Supper by Martin Luther (1528)
 * Ubiquitarians (1530 and 1540)
 * Receptionism (16th and 17th-century Anglicans)
 * Year of the Eucharist (2004–2005)
 * Host desecration

Mandaeism

 * Pihta
 * Fatira
 * Hamra

Others

 * Agape feast
 * Catholic social teaching
 * Catholic theology of the body
 * Perichoresis

title: Eucharist


text:
Talk:Epic poetry

Blind Guardian?
I happen to like them very much, but isn't it a bit far stretched to mention And there that was silence in the same context as Illiad, Odissey and Aeneid? It is a song which is based on the themes of these epics. But itself an epic in the same meaning? Come on ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.235.179.170 (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Sulfuras?
I see a reference to a John Milton epic named "Sulfuras - Hand of Ragnoras". That's the name of a weapon in the online MMORPG-game World of Warcraft. As far as I know, Milton never wrote anything entitled so and I've been unable to find any references to a literary work by that name. Is this an act of vandalism or am I mistaken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.164.125.108 (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Prose?
I see prose items being added here. Should we be renaming the article or creating another?
 * I dumped a lot of the prose items (or items I could tell were prose) down at the bottom of the page, under the heading "Prose Epic" (this is a recurring problem afflicting all of the "epic" pages, but is obviously most serious in a page called Epic poetry). Probably this should ultimately be made into a new page by itself: "Prose Epic", or "Epic Prose", or something like that.  The obvious problem is that it can easily get weighed down with anything that somebody wants to call "epic"; basically, every hefty summer novel wants to be known as an "epic" work.  See the question about The Silmarillion above -- though I admit it has a somewhat better claim than other things on the prose list.  Moby Dick is a great, wonderful novel; but it is not an "epic". 68.100.18.183 04:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic
 * I like how you moved the prose epics to a new section. That's a great idea. However, I have to disagree re: Moby-Dick. Scholars often classify that novel as epic; for instance, see Sounding the Whale: Moby-Dick as Epic Novel, by Christopher Sten. Or search Google for "moby dick epic". You'll see a lot of hits. Rsgranne 31 January 2006
 * Well, it may be an "epic novel", but I don't think it's "an epic". Anyway, as long as there's a section on "prose epic" there's no particular need to arbitrate the question.  I see that "The Lord of the Rings" has been proposed as a "prose epic" in the opening paragraph so I'm moving that down there as well.  I just hope we don't end up with "The Bridges of Madison County" there as well. RandomCritic 08:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Epos
Epos redirects here, but there is no explanation on what this term means or its origins. Obviously it's a synonym, but it's probably worth mentioning. —Michiel Sikma, 18:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

WorldChronicle.net
Is this an appropriate external link? -proteus71 18:22, 05 Sept 2006 (UTC)

Manas Epic from Kyrgyzstan
Someone HAS TO put in this topic something about the MANAS epic from Kyrgyzstan. Anthropologists and linguists credit this poem as being the longest known poem in human history. It was not transcribed until the mid 1900s (not sure exactly when but it was an extensive project). Unlike all these other epics the Manas epic has shaped the identity of an entire ethnic group so it is rather important (in addition to being much longer than any other epic). The people who passed this story down orally had to go through decades of apprenticeship before they were allowed to tell the story and a recitation can take more than a week.

 * Be bold and have that someone be you. You have seen Manas (epic) I'm sure John (Jwy) 01:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC).

Goethe's Faust
Isn't Faust an epic? I thought it was. Where is it in the page?

 * The last edition that removed Goethe's Faust putted that it is a "dramatic poem", and not an "epic poem". --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * And that was correct. --Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Fenian Cycle
What about the Fenian Cycle from Irish mythology? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

De Rerum Natura
And "On the Nature of Things", written by Lucretius in the first century BC? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Not an epic. The following misleading text was entered, I suppose, simply to reassure the bunny-rabbits: "As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such." Epic does not just mean "big" ("...went off with an epic bang") and it does not include Xena Warrior Princess. The result of this kindergarten reassurance exhausts all meaning from the word and feeds library-deprived crackerbarrel literary chatter.--Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Many classicists understand De Rerum Natura as an epic poem, of the specific sort known as didactic epic. Other examples would be Hesiod's Works and Days. Not every classicist would agree, of course; the definition of "epic" isn't straightforward. Still, I'd say that De Rerum Natura ought to be on the list. (for a reference, see this review of Monica Gale's Lucretius and the Didactic Epic. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

 * DRN is an epic, but not a heroic epic. 2600:8806:340B:E100:A0EA:A3B4:8CB3:563A (talk) 01:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Ovid's Metamorphoses
Ovid's Metamorphoses is an epic. I quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary entry on Ovid: "An unorthodox epic in fifteen books, Ovid's only surviving work in hexameters, composed in the years immediately preceeding his exile in AD 8." The Metamorphoses bends the genre of epic, to be sure, but it is still considered an epic by almost any classicist. In fact, many classicists consider any long work in hexameters to be an epic, since definitions based on the content of the poems can't cover the full range of ancient epic from the Iliad to the poem of Parmenides to Aratus' Phaenomena to Works and Days. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

 * This special pleading needs to be incorporated into the article rather than adding the Metamorphoses to an empty list, which will confuse the Simple. --Wetman 17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Silmarillion
The Silmarillion is not poetry; however, Tolkien did write an epic poem (though it was unfinished) called The Lay of Leithian. It was written over the course of five years, and contains several thousand lines. But should it be mentioned here, because it was unfinished? --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you can find a source that talks about it as being epic poetry, yes, if not, then I'm not sure. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Added The Ballad of the White Horse
Added The Ballad of the White Horse by G K Chesterton APAULCH 21:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Rearranged a lot of stuff
Rearranged a lot of stuff, separated out prose epics (and others) without deleting entries, divided main poetic epic section into ancient/medieval/modern while retaining century divisions, and added in a good many titles. 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

Epic vs. Lyric
Some of the material on here is undeniably poetry (and long poetry at that); but is it all epic poetry? It would be worthwhile examining some of the less-well-known poems here (where they're accessible) to see if they fit the definition. While any two adjacent categories always have some dubious in-between items, most epic poetry is pretty clearly definable: does it narrate a series of interesting events? That's epic poetry, even if in addition to the story told there is an allegorical, philosophical, or political point. Or is the poem primarily an expression of the poet's thought, whether emotional, philosophical, or critical, to which the narrative -- if any -- is totally subordinate? That's lyric poetry. Wordsworth's Prelude, while it does pass through a series of biographical events, seems to me not to be about those events, but rather uses them as a framework to expound his thoughts on this and that. And while I'd be hesitant to confine epic solely to poems that treat of battles, marvellous journeys, and deeds of errantry, I'm also rather of the opinon that Wordsworth's own life was not up to the level of epic interest. :) 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

I agree. It weakens the definition when people start slipping things like Bohemian Rhapsody in as examples of the 'epic'. It seems there's a degree of confusion about the colloquial usuage, and the literary conditions necessary for something to be an epic. 131.111.247.12 (talk) 12:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Entirely agree with the previous posts. There is material here that is clearly not epic, and some epics that are not listed. For example neither Paul Revere's Ride by Longfellow nor the collection it was originally in, Tales of a Wayside Inn, are epic in any sense. Missing epics include Gilgamesh, the Epic of Manas among others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.7.84.11 (talk) 23:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

If you call Hinduism "mythology," then call Christianity and Judaism "mythology" too.
The built-in arrogance of the West never ceases to amaze. The entire Old Testament, not just the Book of Job, is epic poetry -- especially Genesis. Let's get honest people. What you call religious texts are not exempt. They contain all the same qualities that denote epic poems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.61.243 (talk • contribs) 04:55, April 19, 2007 (UTC)

 * If you have a solution to offer, offer it. Venting or ranting about how the world does you and yours wrong can be done from a blog. Proteus71 17:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

 * You are clearly not well acquainted with the Old Testament. What of the Law books such as Leviticus If one can describe such edicts as 'When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest' and 'Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary' as poetry one clearly has no literary scruples. The psalms also, though unquestionably verse, are hymns not epics. But why is this user being attacked? The arrogance of western religion on such matters is and indisputable and indefensible fact. And he has posited a fair, if utterly erroneous, solution: to shunt the entire Old Testament under the 'epic' banner, without a thought for the heroic and elevated themes of the Gospels or Revelations.

 * The Bible is clearly not epic, since it isn't a narrative poem. As for Scripture as myth, well, the real question isn't whether you can denounce it as myth, but whether it rises to the level of myth.  Myth, after all, comes from the Greek μῦθος, meaning (at least in the Homeric sense), true story.  A myth is a myth to the extent that it is true.  I don't mean literally true, of course, but truth in the sense that poetry is best equipped to convey.  Epic poetry, then, aims to tell a big truth, and the literalness of the story is irrelevent to that big truth.  It is seems clear that Hindu and Christian stories convey big truths, and so do indeed rise to level of myth (instead of mere story).  I assume, however, that you didn't mean to complement Western tradition in that way.  --Icowrich (talk) 19:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but the definition of "myth", in english, is certainly not a "big truth", regardless of the etymology of the word. Dear IP who started this thread, can you give examples of the unbalance you claim between how different religious texts are referred to? In general I do agree that there should be no difference between how much hinduism and the Bible are considered myths. Either call both myths or none. GreyWinterOwl (talk) 16:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Milton's Paradise Lost
It is my personal opinion that John Milton's epic poem Paradise Lost should be added to the list at the top of the page of significant Western epic poems. It is one of the best known and best written examples of English blank verse and epic poetry in the West. Is anyone of the same opinion? Could we reach a consensus? --Alrocks334 02:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Conventions In Epics
This section includes this as a convention of Epics:

Writer invokes a Muse, one of the nine daughters of Zeus. The poet prays to the Muses to provide him with divine inspiration to tell the story of a great hero.

This would only apply to epics from cultures influenced by Classical mythology. It seems overbroad to include it among conventions of all epic poetry. I'm going to add a Fact tag to this one.

* Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 17:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Why not just add its a convention of classical western epics? I'm no expert, but I think its reasonably important as a convention that is often worked with or against in later literature. (John User:Jwy talk) 04:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. I'll give it a tweak; feel free to modify as you see fit (of course).
 * * Septegram * Talk * Contributions * 14:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The "attempted delineation of the epic form,' or however exactly it was phrased, is far too specific. It seems to be a list of charictaristics of the style of Homer and those directly inspired, and should be either edited or removed. This is only emphisised by the fact that it has no citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.233.32.17 (talk) 23:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Irish Epics
The Ulster and Fenian Cycles should be added. (Tain Bo Cualgne, etc.)

The Canterbury Tales
Surely, this is not to be considered an epic? It is a collection of firesode yarns spun, for the most part, in couplets of iambic pentameter. It has been shovelled unceremoniously into the 'epic' basket on account of its length amd prominent position in the history of english literature. Please, lets be more careful about how we use the word. The 'Tales' are a worthier candidate then many for the term.

Eliot
Why are 'The Waste Land'and 'Four Quartets' grouped under 'Other' epics when clearly wrtten in verse? Simply because they do not fit in with the prevalent traditions epic poetry does not mean that they should be separated from the group all together. They are poetry, and should be listed as such or not as epic at all.

 * More likely the latter. I've not read Four Quartets, but The Waste Land is certainly not an epic by any reasonable definition of the word. john k (talk) 00:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree. Neither Four Quartets or The Waste Land are anywhere close to epics in length, material, aim, tone or convention. Nor are either satirical of epics. DMC (talk) 12:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Prose, Epos and Epic vs. Lyric
My comment bears on the 'prose', 'epos' and 'epic vs lyric' sections in the talk page above, and relates to the first two sentences of the article:

 * "The epic is a broadly defined genre of narrative poetry, characterized by great length, multiple settings, large numbers of characters, or long span of time involved. As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be retroactively called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such."

I agree with the definition in the first sentence, that seems pretty uncontentious. When the second sentence claims a "change in use of the word", though, I get confused. Change? Surely it is the use of 'epic' as a cinematic genre that involves the change in definition. The first sentence pretty much describes how Aristotle defines the epos in his Poetics, no? There is a trinity of terms in classical poetics: the lyric, the epos and the drama. The poet turns his back on the audience and addresses his muse, the poet sings directly to the audience about matters of civic concern, the poet speaks indirectly through the mask of characters. In a very schematic way, which I know some aestheticians contest (Szondi objects to the easy schematization, I seem to remember), this gives us : lyrical - the poem - mood and emotion / dramatic - the drama - interpersonal mimesis / epic - the novel - diegetic narrative. There is no inherent association in Aristotle between the epic and verse, I seem to remember. DionysosProteus 04:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

See Also need cleaning up
The See Also section of the aritcle has a lot of links that should be elsewhere in the article, such as specific national epics.(Lucas(CA) 16:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC))

Ronald Johnson and Herman Melville
Johnson's Ark and Melville's Clarel should be added to the list of epics at the end; they are two of the three "completed" American epic poems (Zukofsky's A is the other).

71.199.8.10 07:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Leaves of Grass
Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass is not an epic. It is a collection of poems. It should be removed from this list. 24.7.158.72 (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What about mock epics?
I think the mock epic has an honourable history that ought to be acknowledged. A particular favourite of mine is Charles Charming's Challenges on the Pathway to the Throne by Clive James. Andy.hawthorn (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

in medias res
I strongly, strongly dispute that beginning in medias res is a defining characteristic of an epic. Basically, Homer starts in medias res, particularly the Odyssey, which then loops back to give a long flashback (the Iliad just starts in the middle of the war, but doesn't do the flashback thing). Later epic writers who were influenced by Homer imitated this characteristic of the Odyssey - particularly Virgil in the Aeneid (with Aeneas narrating to Dido about his previous adventures) and Milton in Paradise Lost (with Raphael telling Adam and Eve about the war in heaven).

But it's certainly not a cross-cultural characteristic of epics. It doesn't even apply to most classical epics - the other poems in the epic cycle do not seem to have been constructed in this way (the Cypria, for instance, just tells a narrative of the events leading up to the beginning of the Iliad). Apollonius' Argonautica and Statius' Thebaid seem to have also been straightforward narratives, so it seems as though only Virgil of the later "literary" epic writers actually imitated Homer in this regard. Of later western epics, the Divine Comedy certainly doesn't follow this format, either.

Nor, from what I can gather, do most non-western epics follow this format. From what I can gather the Indian epics do not, nor does Gilgamesh. Nor, from a different place, do medieval European epics - Beowulf starts with Scyld Shefing, for instance.

I strongly think that this should be removed as a defining characteristic of epics. Obviously, some very famous epics use this format (most notably, the Odyssey, the Aeneid, and Paradise Lost), but when the exceptions are more numerous than the examples, we should be very wary of saying these define epics.

It's also noteworthy that much other classical literature which is not epic also begins in medias res. I think particularly of the various Athenian tragedies, which always start more or less in the middle of the story (Iphigenia is long dead before the Oresteia begins; Oedipus has already killed his father and married his mother years before Oedipus Rex starts; and so forth), and are certainly not epics. john k (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the preceding writer, and I would like to add that not all epics are characterized by a vast setting. For example, the Iliad takes place entirely in the region of Troy (in what is now northwestern Turkey) and it involves only two peoples, the Greeks and the Trojans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.78.220 (talk) 23:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

More text before list
I feel that this article could probably go a little deeer into the difference between epic poems and non-epic poems before beginning a list. Critical analysis from T.S. Eliot and others surely would do well here, pressing the case for the classification and the problems with its use in historical contexts. Mrathel (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

"National" Epics
Could someone take a look at National epic and see if there's any way to improve it, or determine if it shouldn't just be deleted? It's almost entirely subjective and unsourced, with people adding and subtracting based on their personal opinions and little else. Is there any information in that article that isn't covered sufficiently on this one? The only thing that might be a problem is the prose epic section, which is pretty interesting. If it's needed and based on anything solid, it might just warrant its own (decent) article.Merpin (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Moving the Táin
I'm moving the Táin Bó Cúailnge to the 7th century; while its events are dated to the 1st, the earliest literature about the story is thought to be from the 7th, and the "full" version appears in a late-11th/early 12th century manuscript. Of course, that's prose, not poetry, and so aren't we stretching the term a bit if we even include it? MaryJones (talk) 21:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Poetic Edda
The Poetic Edda is not an epic it is a collection of mythological poems and wisdom poetry, it does not tell an extended story. It should be removed from the list, which I am about to do... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.17.130 (talk) 14:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

acholi language from gulu
can you make sentences in english then translate them into acholi language for me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.201.198 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Narrative poems?
I've realized that most epic poems listed in the article for epic poetry are actually narrative poems,any poems containing a story is a narrative poem but not all of them are epic. Some of the poems are not epics neither in intention nor in subject-matter, nor in style; maybe, it would be better to open a new article for all of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnpa20 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

 * A common confusion in this list is between epics and romances (including chansons de geste). Both are, of course, forms of narrative poetry, but that is insufficient to characterize an epic.  Romances focus on a small group of characters (e.g. a heroic protagonist, his lord, his lover, his friend, his rival, and his enemy) and their interactions, and use the narrative structure as a way to elicit emotion, with whatever events take place in the background merely highlighting those moments of passion, pathos, tragedy, and so forth.
 * Epic is the reverse; in an epic, which typically has a larger cast of characters, the events -- or even one big event -- are paramount, and while there may be romantic episodes, those are subordinated to the purpose of giving context to the story. Both an epic and a romance may deal with a hero fighting in battle, for instance; but in the epic, the question to be resolved is whether the battle is lost or won, and what that means for the sides or causes involved; the focus on the hero is only to humanize the event.  Whereas in the romance, the question to be resolved is whether the hero lives or dies or is wounded, and how that will affect his friends and enemies.  Parzival is preeminently a romance; it's about the growth and development of one main character.  And while there are battles and wars going on in the background, they are only backdrops for his character development.  Whereas in the Iliad, we are concerned not so much with Hector or Achilles as with the fundamental question of whether Troy will stand or fall.RandomCritic (talk) 16:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

In Our Time
The following was posted in Talk:The_Epic by User:Rich Farmbrough. I think it was meant to end up here.

Scalzi + | (Talk | contribs) 15:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Huge Number of Medieval Epics Missing!
The Arthurian epics in Old French by Chrétien de Troyes should be added. Also the epics in Middle High German, such as Heinrich von Veldekes 'Eneit' (a retelling of the Aenead), Wolfram von Eschenbach's 'Parzival' (it is incredible that Wagner's opera Parsifal is listed, but not the epic it is based upon) and many more. The Medieval German languaged writers were very prolific in epics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.106.89 (talk) 23:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

20th century epic poems (examples)
just pointing out one omission: I believe John Berryman's Dream Songs needs to be included. It is not merely a collection of related poems; it is indeed a single poem, a story. This is a prime contemporary example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.176.111.20 (talk) 09:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Awkward balance in lede
To balance Parry-Lord, the lede currently has this statement: "Nonetheless, epics have been written down at least since the works of Virgil, Dante Alighieri, and John Milton." The 1300 year span between Verg. and Dante here makes the sentence ridiculous enough, but a centimeter away on my screen is an image of a Gilgamesh tablet. Does someone with a broader epic knowledge than me want to make all this less awkward. The Cardiff Chestnut (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I've decided to be bold and remove this nonsensical and unscholarly statement. I think that as Parry's argument stood against the countervailing concept of primarily written epic it is worth mentioning, but there is no need to then restate the obvious fact that epics have been written down in the introduction. The earliest known Eastern and Western epics all survived in written forms, even if they were orally composed or initially transmitted orally. While I was at it I removed the reference to Lewis' idea of primary and secondary epics which is not in keeping with modern scholarship about the nature of the epic tradition - it is crude both to say that Homer was writing as a kind of history alone and that Milton was writing a purely literary story. The idea of primary and secondary epic should be discussed later because of its influence and partial utility, but putting it here distorts the opening of the article. Sorry for the anon edit - some day I'll get around to making an account, and when I have time I'll spruce up the article. 163.1.121.87 (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The Yoruba epics
The following are under Medieval epics, 11th century right now:

 * Moremi, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. It is commonly considered to be a continuation of the story of Oduduwa, the protagonist's father-in-law.
 * Oduduwa, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. Although the period that the dynastic section of the corpus describes is commonly believed to be the 11th century, its divine section deals with the origin of the world itself, and the holy Yoruba city of Ile-Ife is known to be an ancient settlement that dates to a time long before the birth of Christ. Due to this being the case, it may well be safe to assume that the earliest aspects of the corpus are from the ancient era.
 * Oranyan, a part of the Yoruba corpus of divine traditions. It is commonly considered to be a continuation of the story of Oduduwa, the protagonist's father.

None of the linked articles reference these epic poems, there is very little Google evidence for their existence, and everything said about the dating of the middle one definitely needs a citation. Does anyone have any knowledge of these? -Senori (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move(s)

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Whether Epic should remain a disambiguation page or should be converted to a different form was not resolved here. Dekimasu よ! 23:46, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

– There is no good reason why "epic" should be a disambiguation page. An "epic" is a long poem such as the Iliad, Beowulf, Paradise Lost, etc. (If you don't know what an epic exactly is, look it up in a decent dictionary.) The page "Epic poetry" clearly is the primary usage of "epic", and ought thus be moved to the page "epic". Michael! (talk) 12:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Epic poetry → Epic
 * Epic → Epic (disambiguation)
 * Oppose per nominator's rationle that I agree with: if I don't know what an epic is, which I don't, how am I supposed to know that I'm looking for this? I'd be better off looking at a disambiguation page. In fact, in recent times, the subject in Epic (2013 film) actually comes to my mind first, but I don't believe that should be a primary topic either given the use of the word in other cases. Steel1943  (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose the most common usage in the modern day is not epic poetry, it is epic film. Even in literature, it is not epic poetry, but epic fantasy that is the most common usage in lit. We even have a broad concept article that covers epic poetry and epic film together with epic fantasy epic (genre) that would be a better choice than the poetry article. -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 05:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Support as proposed (as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC's lasting significance criterion) but I would also counterpropose a WP:CONCEPTDAB as a possible resolution. Obviously the usage of "epic" as an encyclopedia article is what matters here, and I'd say that generally refers to epic poetry. Red Slash 19:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. See here for evidence that the type of film is still not much talked about and has only been talked about since the '20s (and mainly since the '60s). Srnec (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm not sure that either poetry or film is the primary topic. Since the meaning of "epic" is ambiguous, better to leave it as a disambiguation page. Fortdj33 (talk) 14:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I would make a WP:DABCONCEPT article here for the general sense of a broad and sweeping story told in any media. This is covered at Epic (genre), but that article would need to be much improved to occupy this title. bd2412  T 19:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Epic (noun) is a long poem, such as the Aeneid, Mahabharata, Nibelungenlied, etc. Epic (mass noun) is the "genre of epics". In compounds such as "epic film", and "epic fantasy", epic is an adjective (primary meaning "relating to or characteristic of an epic or epics" (quotation from the Oxford Dictionary of English, 2010), not a noun. However, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, phrasebook, or a slang, jargon or usage guide, so I don't see why the page epic should discuss all different usages of the word "epic". Instead, epic should discuss the primary usage. I can't understand Wikipedia's primary meaning would be something else than what's taught to 11 and 12 year old children at school, i.e. a long narrative poem which has existed for some 3-4000 years. Michael! (talk) 08:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually other dictionaries (for instance, collins, random house) and literature disagree with your rendering of the Oxford dictionary. In particular they carry epic as a noun for other genres as well and not just as adjective. The "counter example" of sorts to "epic film" (adjective) would be "Hollywood epic" (noun) (see ). For another comparison Britannica's entry for epic starts with "long narrative poem recounting heroic deeds, although the term has also been loosely used to describe novels".--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose - "Epic poetry" is a good clear name, often used. No good reason to move this page. Therefore the other change suggested need not take place. Andrew Dalby 08:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose whether "epic poetry" is a good name or not is of no consequence for the disambiguation structure. If author/editors at "epic poetry" feel the term is not appropriate or rarely used and prefer the use of "epic" then they can change the article's name to "epic (poetry)" in analogy to the novel case. There is however no need to change the disambiguation page "epic" for that. The current "epic (disambiguation)" as redirect is not needed can be deleted in doubt.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment (last one) All right, I realize there is more opposition than support for my proposal. There seems to be no broad concensus for a move, therefore the status quo should be mantained.
 * However, I would like to have one thing clear. I'm not at all opposed to epic poem, epic poetry, epic (poetry), epic (genre), epic (literary genre), epic literature, etc. Nor do I claim other usages of "epic" do not exist. I'm only opposed to the fact that epic is a disambiguation page, as if a primary usage couldn't be established.
 * "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term."
 * Honestly, I can't see there is any serious candidate other than the poem. Yes, other dictionaries and encyclopedias often list other usages, but they always put the poem first, leaving no doubt about the primary usage and meaning of "epic". Michael! (talk) 09:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * PS Apple is not a disambiguation page. It's about the primary meaning, i.e. the fruit and its tree. There are other "apples", including a certain twentieth century firm, whose products are well known and often discussed in popular media in recent years, but those are listed at apple (disambiguation). Other words with several well established and different usages (e.g. Turkey, Pluto) are not disambiguation pages either... Michael! (talk) 10:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. What's worse is that, whereas the firm Apple, the turkey bird and the god Pluto are clearly defined, well-studied topics with no dearth of reliable sources for their articles, the general sense of "epic" that is usually put forward as a competitor for primary meaning with the poetic genre is neither well-defined nor well-studied and epic (genre) (as if epic poetry isn't a genre) languishes. As Kmhkmh's preferred definition has it: "loosely used to describe novels". Srnec (talk) 20:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Too many works included?
The proposed list of epics is getting longer and longer. Are these all truly epics? For example, is The Battle of Marathon'' by Elizabeth Barrett Browning truly an epic? Pete unseth (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Even if we remove some entrants, the list is too long. Maybe we need a separate page titled "List of epics". In that case, I think that List of world folk-epics and the list from National epic should also be merged into that "List of epics".  Vanjagenije  (talk)  08:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for removing them. 2600:8806:340B:E100:A0EA:A3B4:8CB3:563A (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Spoken Wikipedia Community
I will be recording the audio for this article for the Spoken Wikipedia Community. If anyone else is already working on it, kindly let me know to avoid duplication. A response would be appreciated. Adilalishah 16:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Epic poetry