text:
Talk:History of science

Pharmacology of Egypt (reconsidering an edit reversion)
Headbomb: Thank you for your many contributions to Wikipedia. I see from your userpage that you want to make the Internet not suck. You've also said there: "If it's good, do it, if it's bad, don't do it". I wholeheartedly join you in these sentiments. In that vein, please do reconsider your reversion of my edit to this article. The sentence I deleted (and you reverted my deletion) says this:
 * "Medical historians believe that ancient Egyptian pharmacology, for example, was largely ineffective. "

That assertion, which is very obviously a sweeping generalization (and no page number provided BTW), is cited to one document: online conference proceedings. The articles in the conference were written by medical students ("History of Medicine Days is an annual event which gathers medical students from across Canada to present brief papers on history of medicine at the University of Calgary"). There is an article (by a medical student) titled "Pharmacologocal Practices of Ancient Egypt". I assume that's where this assertion is being cited to? Let me quote from the conclusion of that medical student's article: "Our knowledge of the pharmacopoeia of ancient Egypt is clearly inadequate to support many sweeping generalizations about the effectiveness of the drug therapy regimens." So let's consider: An article by one author, and that author is a medical student, and the article says that sweeping generalizations are impossible, is being cited to support a sweeping generalization on Wikipedia that asserts that many experts hold an opinion that the author himself (a medical student) explicitly disavows... your reversion does not help the Internet not suck. Please consider self-reverting... Fair warning: It is quite possible, and indeed likely, that I'm going to be deleting a lot of text from this article, bit by bit, as I head for WP:GAN. In the future, please consider coming here to Article Talk to discuss before reverting my deletions. Thank you § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 15:12, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

 * "While the bulk of Egyptian remedies can now be recognized as incapable of providing a cure, and in many circumstances even alleviation of symptoms, owing to their lack of active ingredients, it would be inappropriate to label all of these treatments as placebos. Of the 260 prescriptions in the Hearst Papyrus, 28 percent contain an ingredient which can be perceived to have had activity towards the condition being treated"
 * Emphasis mine.   Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * So you are willing to sign your name to this edit,and you're determined to source a sweeping generalization regarding "medical historians (plural)" to one statement on one paper written by one and only one person, and that person was a not a medical historian by any stretch of the imagination, but was instead a medical student? Even though that same medical student later backtracks on his own authority (or anyone's authority) to make sweeping statements? [And remember, after you back down, which in this case you must, because your argument is wholly without merit, I respectfully request that you to come to Talk in the future before reverting me here, because I intend to do a lot of editing...thanks]. § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 12:12, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * While working on another article I found "Take a Lame and Decrepit Female Hyena…": A Genizah Study of Two Additional Fragments of Sābūr Ibn Sahl's "al-Aqrābādhīn al-Ṣaghīr" which involves boiling the hyena for 60 days until you get a syrup, taking care to strain out the fur (this is meant as a medicine). The antidote is probably older than the 1200 year-old manuscripts of Sabur ibn Sahl, which were relegated to the Cairo Genizah. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 16:06, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Ancheta, I'm Ling. Nice to meet you. I'm hoping to take this article to GA over the next few weeks or even months; you're welcome to join in if you want. It will be a nontrivial project. I saw your userpage. What da heck is Flowstream? And by coincidence, I was thinking of Plumpy'nut just this past week. Oddly, the article doesn't mention that it contains (or maybe, used to contain?) plum extract. That was the reason for the name "plum peanut". Thanks for your input here. There are two goals in this present moment, adding WP:RS text, and avoiding adding non-WP:RS text. You're helping with the former; I'm discussing the latter with Headbomb.... whose reversion I am now reverting. Thanks again, Ancheta... § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 22:08, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This is an RS, directly overseen by Julius Szekrenyes of U Calgary, an expert pharmacologist with a specific focus on Ancient Egypt. Sources don't get more specialized than this. WP:PARITY is important, and an entire section on ancient pharmacology uncritically taken at face value is unacceptable.   Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:48, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ... WP:RS says, "Context matters. The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content" (my emphasis). Reliable sources/Noticeboard says, "Many sources are reliable for statement 'X', but unreliable for statement 'Y'". I will certainly stipulate that Julius Szekrenyes is WP:RS when he writes his own articles with his own name on them (thus staking his career and reputation on the contents), in his own field of study, in a peer reviewed publication. I am not arguing against that. I am saying this source, with this author, and that statement, in this context, is pretty much completely non-WP:RS. As for "...an entire section on ancient pharmacology uncritically taken at face value is unacceptable", well, we haven't had time to fix the entire section (and by extension, anything in the entire article) and make it well-written and well-verified etc. I deleted 2 or 3 sentences as a bare beginning, the very barest of beginnings, of an attempt at a complete rewrite, and you reverted. Conclusions: 1) That source, that author, and that statement are all non-WP:RS in this context. 2) If you're worried about the entire section, then invest a few weeks of your time to join me in the complete rewrite of the article, in the spirit of eventualism and sofixit. My next step, if you do not agree, is to go to Reliable sources/Noticeboard. § Lingzhi (talk|check refs) 02:24, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Heliocentrism suggestion
I thought the article for heliocentrism is in need of more detailed content. As written, it seems to miss the impact of Copernicus' contribution. I added some suggested citations to improve the content. King of the Changes (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Description for Adenine picture
When the picture of Adenine structure is opened (Advances in Genetics section), the detailed description states that it is Thymine as opposed to Adenine. Is this a discrepancy? Zhedeye (talk) 16:02, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Science of hydraulics
The Chinese Records of the Grand Historian contain Sima Qian's device for recording negative information over the dynasties. Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China records the scientific skill of the scholar bureaucrats in hydraulics when they were constructing the great waterworks of China over thousands of years. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 07:28, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

 * @Ancheta Wis Hydraulic engineering in China was certainly something that existed by the Warring States Period, though it is clear that the application of the waterwheel to various mechanical wonders was not a thing until about the 1st century BC during the Western Han period. Don't worry, though, the China section might be disorganized and lacking at the moment, but I am planning a near total rewrite soon and will probably start a draft today. Very recently I completely rewrote the abysmal section on "China and East Asia" in the related science in the ancient world sibling sub-article to this one. I also added entirely new sections on Pre-Columbian Mesoamerica in both this main article and that sub-article; more information is desperately needed on Zapotecs and Mayas, as well as Mixtecs and Aztecs who aren't even mentioned yet. Aside from that, you can expect a largely rewritten section on ancient and Imperial China coming soon, with smaller mentions of medieval Korea, Japan, and Vietnam as well (since their scientific traditions were based on China's). Pericles of Athens  Talk 17:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of science


text:
Talk:House of Lords

Tag: Ref Improve
Adding the "ref improve" tag because this article suffers from an embarrassing lack of sources. Some sections have no sources at all while others are just generally lacking. For such a key institution in British politics, its page should be well sourced. Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

90 or 92
There seems to be some inconsistencies on this article. The article constantly references the amount of hereditary peers as either 90 or 92. Which is it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.5.226.53 (talk) 04:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I suppose it's mostly the lead that confuses matters; the rest of the article seems pretty clear about this. There are 92 peers sitting in the House of Lords by virtue of their hereditary titles: of these, 90 are elected and 2 are ex officio members, which is to say they sit because they are the hereditary peers who happen to hold their respective offices of Earl Marshal and Lord Great Chamberlain.
 * (Strictly speaking, there are more hereditary peers than those already mentioned, but they sit by virtue of life peerages and therefore serve as appointed members of the House.) Waltham, The Duke of 20:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Full title
This edit restored a sourced claim about the institution's supposed full and formal name. However, the actual sources cited for this are simply two petitions presented by members of the public, who address the House in such terms. As with the same point for the Commons - where at least there is an official source recommending this construction for petitions - it's not clear whether we can claim that this is therefore the official, formal name of the institution; it's just a form of address apparently used for specific contexts. I can't find much non-WP derived or non-petition based online evidence for this name. We surely need something that explicitly claims this is the formal name of the place before we assert as much here.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

 * And it's been put back in again, with this edit, without any response to the above or any cited justification. Can we get an official source that confirms this name please, as the formal title not simply one means of address? Also, can we settle what colour we want the background and the portcullis? A slow edit-war over an infobox seems a little pointless ...  N-HH   talk / edits  09:03, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Non-affiliated members of the House of Lords
I count 17 Non-affiliated members of the House of Lords not 19. Any consensus to change? Francium12 (talk) 15:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I count 16, if we're going by the list here. -  Chrism  would like to hear from you 03:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm. I've mentioned the discrepancies in figures on the page. I find it difficult to believe that Lord Taylor isn't a non-affiliated member....unless he self-identities as a crossbencher now...Francium12 (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Grouping of Peers
The box on the right groups Peers as HM Government or HM (ml) Opposition. The way this has been done contains the two incumbent parties as the government, with everybody else as the opposition, including the Lords Spiritual and the Crossbenchers. I'm not sure whether this was done to reflect their function or their seating arrangements, but either way, it makes no sense that members of an established church would always be opposing its supreme leader. As for their seating, they always sit on the Government side of the House. Although non-aligned Peers could notionally be said to always be in opposition, I don't think this is completely accurate for Crossbenchers, given their unique roles and the fact that they don't sit on Government nor Opposition benches at all: they have their own benches aligned across the House, facing the Lord Speaker.

It might be better if we re-grouped the list according to seating arrangements. So the incumbent parties and Lords Spiritual are on the Government side, the Opposition and non-aligned Peers are on the Opposition side, and a separate grouping is created for the Crossbenchers. MaxwellEdisonPhD (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

 * I've changed the listing of parties under the box to address your concerns. The image is a significant undertaking, and I would prefer more input before doing anything about it. And while I do see your concern, reflecting the actual seating arrangements would be somewhat difficult to do in an aesthetically pleasing way. I think the present arrangement is meant to reflect not so much government and opposition as such, but those taking the government whip and those not. Otherwise you are quite right, the Bishops and the Crossbenchers (including the non-affiliated, who I believe also sit on the cross benches, though I may be mistaken) are not considered opposition within the House. They are two of four distinct groupings. -Rrius (talk) 08:00, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest a better rough grouping is simply a three-way split between "Government" (basically Con & LD), "[Official] Opposition" (Lab) and a catch-all "Other" (which would includes bishops, cross-benchers, other/minor parties etc; ie the bottom three in |this table). I'm not sure relying on seating arrangements is that helpful, as they're quite mixed up (eg the bishops, as noted, plus the fact that due to space cross-benchers are not confined to the literal cross-benches but spill over to the opposition side). As a side point, when it comes to the opposition, I'm not sure how correct – and definitely how common – "Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition" is as a phrasing.  N-HH   talk / edits  09:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Info box image - "current composition"
The image: House of Lords current.svg.png is out of date because it shows UKIP as having only 2Lords, David Stevens, Baron Stevens of Ludgate has since joined the party from the Crossbenchers. Editors seem determined to constantly change the 3 back to a 2 because the image displayed has 2 purple seats. The image is wrong and is clearly causing too much confusion for editors to cope with, therefore it should be left out of the article until some1 decides to amend it! Just to confirm UKIP's 3 lords are: David Verney, 21st Baron Willoughby de Broke, Malcolm Pearson, Baron Pearson of Rannoch and David Stevens, Baron Stevens of Ludgate. Please see that this mistake is not made again. If we are to include an image it must be correct, as I say it is clearly causing too much confusion. 130.88.114.129 (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a BBC news story from September 2012 which says that Lord Stevens *will* become a UKIP member. However, as of right now, he is still shown as an Independent Conservative on the House of Lords website, which is updated daily:  Thom2002 (talk) 21:13, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Peers without UK citizenship
Can anyone provide a list of UK peers without citizenship ?

(User talk:Siyac) 21:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

"Agnatic" succession and male to female ratio
This is now being repeatedly added to the lead, despite my having queried and reverted its initial inclusion. The NYT piece cited here does not mention the term and it is not up to individual WP editors to claim that cited sources "cannot actually refer to" something that they very explicitly do refer to or correct those sources as to what they "evidently" meant, when they said no such thing. I'm no expert on all this archaic and arcane twaddle, and maybe the NYT is not the best source for this sort of thing, but searching for "agnatic accession" doesn't reveal anything in this context. Plus, as far as I can tell, agnatic refers to the very general principle of descent through the male line; it is not specifically about male vs female heirs, which is a different point. I'm happy to have this explained to me and be proved wrong, but can the person adding this make that effort? Thanks.  N-HH   talk / edits  16:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe I was too bold (and slightly messed up the terms myself), sorry for that. The NYT source doesn't actually refer to "male primogeniture" as claimed, only to "primogeniture". The former I understand to refer to "Male-preference cognatic primogeniture" which means that (like with the British monarch) male heirs inherit before their sisters, but daughters (and then their issue) can inherit if they have no brothers (so descent is not restricted to the "male line"). But the NYT gives two examples which cannot be male-preference cognatic primogeniture by their own description (the historic one in the first paragraph, and the case of "Earl and Countess of Clancarty, who have an 8-year-old daughter but no one to take over the family title"). And in fact our article Hereditary peer (without inline references, unfortunately) states: "More often, letters patent are used to create peerages. Letters patent must explicitly name the recipient of the title and specify the course of descent; the exact meaning of the term is determined by common law. Normally, the patent specifies the peer's heirs-male of the body as successors; in such a case, the rules of agnatic succession apply, meaning that succession is through the male line only." So agnatic succession is apparently the predominant rule for peerages, not male-preference cognatic primogeniture. But since agnatic succession is apparently considered a subcase of primogeniture, just removing the word "male" (in accordance with the source) would also be fine, if less specific than my edit. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem – these things are complicated and I'm certainly no expert. Ideally I think we should find another source altogether, which is more authoritative than a newspaper article and which focuses specifically on the point of male/female ratios in the House of Lords rather than broader inheritance issues (and I'd certainly be wary of relying on another WP article). My understanding is that the preceding "male" is often implicit when the term "primogeniture" is used; if that's right, whether we use it or not is probably a moot point, but as you say it would at least be more faithful to the source we do have.  N-HH   talk / edits  19:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * A better source would indeed be good - among those given in the mentioned WP article, this peers' debate states that in some (implicitly, in most) cases, daughters can never inherit, implying agnatic succesion (but unfortunately not naming it explicitly either). --Roentgenium111 (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Legally primogeniture means to the eldest child but people invariably use it (through laziness or custom) as though they have said male preference primogeniture. I'm not sure I would regard the NYT as a sufficiently expert source on peerage matters for sourcing. As to the latter point I'm not sure what you are after. The vast majority of all British peerages are heirs male of the body lawfully begotten (male only). A small number of ancient baronies by writ are heirs general (male preference) a small number of Scottish titles are heirs of talzie (property) or heirs/heirs male whatsoever which allows heirs/heirs male not of the body of the original grantee. There are a minuscule number of mad as a box of frogs remainders like Marlborough Garlicplanting (talk) 14:02, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm after a source for just this claim that "The vast majority of all British peerages are heirs male of the body lawfully begotten (male only)", to make the corresponding lead sentence more specific, and to replace the NYT source. Do you have one? --Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:22, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With the quickest google search p194 Garlicplanting (talk) 10:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that looks good. I had searched specifically for "agnatic", which is not used there. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 17:48, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not surprised; agnatic is not a commonly used term in British peerage successions perhaps because it lacks nuance to deal with special remainders. Garlicplanting (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps; but according to the source the vast majority is agnatic primogeniture with no special remainder... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Either way I think we are better to use plain English terms where possible - heir male is I suggest an instantly more understandable term to an average reader than agnatic primogeniture. Garlicplanting (talk) 10:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

 * BTW, the claim of 2 hereditary peeresses in the Lords seems to be wrong as well: Our article lists the Countess of Mar as the only one; there were originally 4 elected hereditary peeresses, but 3 died from 2000-2008 and were replaced by men. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

"The"
I appreciate the consistency point, but the addition of "The" in front every "Lord/Baroness .." reads very oddly and over-formally. It's not how you normally see these people described or titled. And if anything, we were more or less consistent in not using it before that edit – removing it from Hill rather than adding it to all the others seems the more obvious option on those grounds alone.  N-HH   talk / edits  17:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

20th century - "Asquith" was unidentified
In the section "20th century", the following appeared: "Asquith then proposed that the powers of the House of Lords be severely curtailed." Prior to that sentence there was no identification whatsoever of "Asquith" or his role. I have changed the page to read "Prime Minister H. H. Asquith then proposed..." with appropriate link to the H. H. Asquith page. Akld guy (talk) 22:46, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Current seating plan
The current seating plan is a fine one but it isn't symetrical (it is difficult to visualise the difference between both sides when it is chopped off on the bottom right). I've tried many times to render it symetrically and this is my latest attempt. Here they are side by side:

I can easily convert the rounded squares to the square format as is currently used. I've added the same discussion to the house of commons talk page Any comments?

Shabidoo | Talk 02:54, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

 * While the effort is appreciated, the real value of making the change you propose is mixed, at best.
 * It looks like your aim was to make the blocks the same width as opposed to the same height. This makes the difference between the sides visually less apparent, particularly for someone who understands the significance of the colors (addressed further below).
 * Second, given that the composition of the House of Lords changes rather frequently, how long before any given graphic needs to be changed, and who will make the change(s) and upload the new version(s)?
 * Third, why do you have a black dot sitting in the middle between the two blocks? Without closer inspection, it looks like a misplaced Lords Spiritual.
 * Fourth, what is your definition of "sides" when you refer to "the difference between both sides"? In the British Parliament, there is 1) the government, 2) the opposition, and 3) other alignments (which in the case of the House of Lords, is mostly Crossbenchers). The main problem with the visualization in the current infobox (and which your work carries over) is that it groups the formal opposition and the "other" parties into the same block.
 * On the plus side, your call to attention of updating the visualization inspired me to make a separate modification to the composition bar in the Current composition section. It addresses the main concern of mine of splitting the House into three groups, plus can more readily be updated. Farolif (talk) 04:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes you are very right about the cross bench and opposition seated together. I've seen images representing other westminster systems that use the term "cross bench" (as not all do) and they placed the cross bench to the right hand side. If I make a mock up in that style it will separate all three groups and the opposition will clearly look smaller than the governing side. I'll upload one and see what you think. I'll also stick to squares as it's the custom on UK charts. Shabidoo (talk) 05:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Lead - what is its purpose ?

 * Apart from this part
 * "The House of Lords scrutinises bills that have been approved by the House of Commons.[10] It regularly reviews and amends Bills from the Commons.[11] While it is unable to prevent Bills passing into law, except in certain limited circumstances,[12] it can delay Bills and force the Commons to reconsider their decisions.[13] In this capacity, the Lords acts as a check on the House of Commons that is independent from the electoral process."
 * Nothing is really stated about the House's necessity, importance or its regular daily work. Has the House of Lords no easily defined main task, which possibly could be mentioned in the lead instead of (or together with) exemplification (as of above) ? Please note this isn't criticism against the House of Lords, just improvment suggestions. Boeing720 (talk) 00:35, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the paragraph you quote pretty much does state the House's main task and regular work, and gives some indication of its possible necessity/importance (that being a matter of opinion in any case). I'm not sure what else might be added in what is supposed to be a summary. W. P. Uzer (talk) 05:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I can agree in general, the lead isn't bad or difficult to comprahend. But in my mind (= my interpretation of Manual of Style/Lead section) examplification is here used instead of a consice defintion followed by examples. Here is a suggestion to improve the lead -
 * "The House of Lords is the second chamber of the British Parliament, whose appointed members are checking and challanging the British government as well as the House of Commons"
 * after which the examples well can follow. I read http://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/checking-and-challenging-government/ and some other pages. Perhaps also a phrase like "Although without the same power as the House of Commons, The House of Lords keeps a 'wise eye' on the elected but sometimes wavy House of Commons" (the word "wavy" isn't optimal, but I refer to governments with shrinking or no majority (as MP's vanishes for different reasons), challange of party leaders and also during other cross-party boundry turbulent issues. And after a new government or PM is installed etc). Boeing720 (talk) 00:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on House of Lords. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091001042614/http://www.chiefrabbi.org:80/ReadContent1849.aspx to http://www.chiefrabbi.org/ReadContent1849.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090126184819/http://www.parliament.uk:80/about/how/principal/interviews/lordspeaker.cfm to http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/principal/interviews/lordspeaker.cfm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 07:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I Checked them, first 2 are fine, 3rd does not work. Jtrrs0 (talk) 21:30, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

"The House of Lords is the only Upper House bigger than its respective Lower House"
I want to add the above statement to the article. I tweeted this graph yesterday - would it count as "original research" if I sourced the data from Wikipedia? best, Sunil060902 (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia can't be used as a source for our own articles under our policy on reliable sources, so you'd need to find an independent source for the information that we can reference. -  Chrism  would like to hear from you 12:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe I've found a source for this (thanks to Google Books). I'll find somewhere to note it in the article. W. P. Uzer (talk) 15:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Regent of a German state as a member?
Queen Victoria's second son, Alfred, was born in England and became the Duke of Edinburgh. Then when his uncle died in 1893, he inherited another dukedom: Saxe-Coburg Gotha; Thus, he became a regent of a (German State) foreign power in allegiance to the German Emperor, "intent on challenging England's supremacy as the foremost world power". In 1893, he is stated as the first person in recorded history to quit the Privy Council of his own volition, in 1893, he also relinquished his seat in the House of Lords.

Would the rules of membership of the (1893) House of Lords have continued to accept Prince Alfred as a member under such circumstances? Did he jump or was he pushed? Stephen2nd (talk) 00:44, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The gentleman's article is Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. That gives more information and cites http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-21342555 which gives still more information. It sounds like resigning was basically considered the natural thing to do in the cirucmstances, but there is no mention of any rule that would have required it. W. P. Uzer (talk) 08:29, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Coding Issues
Please can we clarify how " HOLtotal " (see "edit" for code) is worked out, and potentially provide a source? 81.132.7.205 (talk), 13:50, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a template: Template:HOLtotal. Farolif (talk) 22:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Jamming independents into unaffiliated
I was asked by a user to update the diagram (I haven't edited the UK parliament pages in a long time) and noted that five parties were missing in the infobox and made the changes. I was reverted (and possibly rightly so) with the comment that for the purposes of this list and others on WP, these five members are considered same as non-affiliated. I've gone through the talk page and noted that there is no discussion on this and that in previous info boxes independent-party name groups had their own colour box. I also don't know anyother parliament infobox that excludes a small group solely by the fact that they are independent-party name, but instead have a seat threshold (all groups with only one seat are grouped with one colour and the data is still given). I have always been one to support putting small groups into one colour, as long as the names of all of those parties are listed in small text below as is done on a few pages which also omit small parties (there are very very few) however what I find troubling is making an arbitrary choice of excluding independent-partyname instead of including or excluding parties based on the number of seats. There is no reason the green party with only one seat should be listed while the indepentend-libdem with three seats is excluded. At the very least, if they are going to be bunched into one group then all the independent-partyname groups (all five of them) should be grouped into one colour, labeled so and the figures given in small text and not unafiliated as they are not unafiliated most importantly according to the official website of the house of lords which provides updated lists and figures.

House of Councillors (Japan), the Indian Rajya Sabha and Lok Sabha, National Assembly of South Africa and the Brazilian Federal Senate and Chamber of Deputies (Brazil) for examples per how they deal with multiple small parties or dividing different small parties into groups.

I'm not saying that some parties shouldn't be grouped, but that there is a clear seat threshold and/or grouping and that they are properly divided by affiliation, non-affiliation or independent status. Shabidoo (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

 * The general reasoning is that these Independent members can call themselves whatever they want for the purposes of the House of Lords' official records, but they are still no longer subjects of their former party's whips. Thus, they are treated the same as non-affiliated in most cases. Farolif (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Hi Farolif i am the user that asked to update the diagram and I noticed that the 5 independents had erroneously been grouped into non-affiliated I'm sorry but I don't agree with your argument, the official web site of the House of Lords does not treat them as non-affiliated and wikipedia should reflect the source IMHO. Domdeparis (talk) 09:56, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * This is a case where Wikipedia is called upon to make an objective interpretation of the facts rather than blindly accommodate the political maneuverings of a small group of individuals. The fact is these "independents" are not currently a member of any recognized political party or movement, nor are they in the Crossbench, an otherwise unique option for House of Lords members. There are likewise other peers who have left their respective parties and did not adopt an "independent" styling for their listed affiliation, such as the most recent example of Dafydd Elis-Thomas, the former whip of Plaid Cymru himself. These namings in question are little more than a policy statement being made by the Lords who use them and do not need to be recognized by the encyclopedia in all areas. Farolif (talk) 12:02, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * That's a very personal opinion and what would seem to be original research. The institution that the article is about recogonises them as being apart and not non-affiliated and I do not think that the editors of an encyclopedia are legitimate to call into question the way that the institution is organised and run...you personally do not recognise them but the House of Lords does.  I do not think that a wikipedia page is the best place to attack their decision by imposing your view of things.  Wikipedia should be a faithful representation of what the article is about and I feel that you should undo you edit.Domdeparis (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Since you're clearly still of your original mindset, perhaps you could kindly explain what exactly the difference is between a (non-Crossbench) "independent" vs a (properly-styled) non-affiliated member of the House of Lords? Farolif (talk) 13:52, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * The difference is, one is entirely unaffiliated with anything and the other have affiliated themselves as independent-something. So...you have one member with no affiliation/self identity...and you have a member who identifies/affiliates themselves as something. The other difference is...this is how they are identified and listed on the official website of the House of Lords, which is pretty much as relevant and reliable as our information can get. The fact that these indepentent members were originally appointed by a party (or originally belonged to a party) and now sit apart from them but still identify themselves in some way related to the party (independent-previous-party) makes their affiliation/identity no less important than any other. This happens all the time in legislatures around the world, especially with the Canadian Senate and American state senates and houses. On these wikipedia articles no one groups them into an unaffiliated group because they are affiliated. They have an affiliation. Furthermore, the fact that there are two members who call themselves independent-something all ready tells you that no, they aren't two independent/unaffiliated individuals like any other...but identify as a group of two people with the same identity. They are not unaffiliated.
 * Regardless of a personal opinion on the matter, the list given by the official website of the house of lords lists them by their affiliation and since that it the source used then they should be listed as such. There are also next to no precidents on any other legislature wikipedia page lumping members who identify themselves as one thing...yet grouping them into something else. Not including that information in the infobox means one is arbitrarily judging their identity/affiliation to be unimportant/trivial/irrelevant.)

 * I would refer you to this website http://www.crossbenchpeers.org.uk/who.html who define the crossbenchers as

 * "'Crossbenchers are members who have no party-political affiliation and participate in parliamentary proceedings independently. They do not adopt collective policy decisions, but rather speak and vote as individuals. For administrative purposes all crossbenchers are part of the crossbench group. The group elects a Convenor whose role it is to provide information to crossbenchers and represent their interests in the House.' Shabidoo (talk) 15:48, 24 October 2016 (UTC)"

 * As for the other legislatures (particularly the US counterparts), it sounds like you're conflating the concept of a caucus with what goes on in House of Lords. Though I'm glad you felt it critical to direct me to the official Crossbenchers site, as it invites me to question if there are any similar sites for the various "Independent _____" affiliations which the Lords members in question self-identify as, and which you feel warrants a separate listing from non-affiliated's (who also have no official website, government-based or otherwise). Farolif (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * If you take the time to verify the list of members the independents are classed as "others". They are not non-affiliated members they are affiliated to the different parties but are independent from them. You may not like or understand that definition but that does not give you the right to reclassify them as non-affiliated as the real non-affiliated group (crossbenchers) do not count them as members. If you can provide support of your opinion then please do otherwise please undo your edit. Domdeparis (talk) 15:57, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * "they are affiliated to the different parties but are independent from them" Shouldn't it be one or the other, as the whole point of being independent is to not be affiliated with a party? And I don't think I'm trying to call them Crossbenchers, so what is the point of pointing out that the -real- (?) non-affiliated parliamentary group does not count them as members, either? Farolif (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * This is becoming tedious...please supply support of your opinion that is contrary to the source or undo your edit, you seem to be very stubborn. Domdeparis (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * How's this?
 * Google search - "Independent Labour" official
 * Google search - "Independent Liberal Democrat" official
 * Google search - "Independent Social Democrat" official
 * Google search - "Independent Ulster Unionist" official
 * Farolif (talk) 17:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This is truly a no-brainer. We aren't here to give our opinion about how parties identify themselves. We are here to present information as given by reliable and relevant sources. The onus is on an editor to give a convincing reason to modify the info as presented in sources as well as changing a well established custom of listing all parties in the box. So far the only case presented is "they should make up their mind...either independent or not". That's not an argument, that's a personal gripe about how parties identify themselves. Unless a better case is presented I will include all parties in the infobox. The question is whether to group the independent-partynames with one colour listing parties and seats in small letters or show them like all other parties. Shabidoo (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Except. None of these. Are actual. Parties. Farolif (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * For crying out loud!! google searches are not proof that you're right. Enough now. Shabidoo please modify it and if Farolif undoes it again I'll file a report for edit-warring which seems to be something he is familiar with from what I can gather.Domdeparis (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Shabidoo i'm on this...I think I've found a way to put an end to the .... WP:GF editing from Farolif--Domdeparis (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Farolif has conceeded and changed the box himself. I just edited the colours etc. I'm wondering if the independent parties can be placed in one colour group and then their composition given in smaller text below. What do you think? Should I make a mockup? Shabidoo | Talk 16:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks Domdeparis for creating the colourbox templates and the seats per party templates! Shabidoo | Talk 16:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. The trouble is that they are not really parties but groups from what I understand and it would be misleading to group them again. there are only 4 groups and the House of Lords identify the four groups by name in the "others" section in the same way that they do with the greens and UKIP so if we want to stay faithful to the source it would be best to leave it at that. The criterion of size is not applicable as Independent labour has 2 members whereas the Greens and Plaid Cymru only have 1 member each...Domdeparis (talk) 16:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be creating more confusion. Idea scrapped. Shabidoo | Talk 11:41, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Changing the order of the parties/groups
Farolif please stop trying to impose your opinion with this childish edit warring. If you continue I will file an admin report. Domdeparis (talk) 12:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

if your argument that they are not parties was valid then the non-affiliated and crossbenchers should be at the end too. Domdeparis (talk) 13:02, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Crossbenchers are a recognized parliamentary group with a their own official site & publications, not to mention their own seating arrangement within the House. It would be quite unreasonable to equate them to the sporadic non-affiliated members. Farolif (talk) 13:09, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * See the order in the infobox on House of Commons of the United Kingdom as a proper template to follow. Independents are listed at the end, regardless of number. Farolif (talk) 13:09, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * You cannot use the exemple that elsewhere it's done like that so here it should be too. If you take the time to look at this page you will see that the membership of the House of Commons is by size with the independents being in 6th place in a list of 14. http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/.  The wikipedia page should also reflect that.  The source take precedence over other wikipedia pages and your personal opinion.  Please resist the temptation to consider this page as your own.  You are right about crossbenchers of course but I also said that in you logic of giving listing priority to the parties where do you put the non-affiliated ? You have conveniently ignored that question  Domdeparis (talk) 13:20, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Farolif Please undo your last revert i asked you to continue the discussion here to try and resolve the issue and you reverted again without a consensus being found. if you do not revert I will file an edit warring report with the administrators and let them sort it out. Domdeparis (talk) 13:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Do you want me to list other cases of legislatures' official sites which summarize membership statistics in a completely different order than how they appear in the corresponding WP infobox? There are many, many of them. I only picked the House of Commons as it was most directly relevant to this article, and hopefully a parallel which you could have made an informed assessment of. Farolif (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Once again it doesn't matter the errors made on other pages, the idea of a wikipedia page is to faithfully represent the information especially as per the source. You do not agree with the fact that they give their allegiance as Independent members of an existing party and have made that abundantly clear with the edit warring and calling them "outliers" is not based on anything but your own opinion. Please revert to the last modification unless you can find another secondary source to back your claim that the House of Lords itself is wrong in the way that they classify their own members. Domdeparis (talk) 14:15, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * it doesn't matter the errors made on other pages So, the whole rest of Wikipedia is wrong, and your vision of the infobox here is correct? You might be even further gone than I thought. Farolif (talk) 14:35, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have added a crossbencher subgroup (as they are given on most other articles with crossbench) and I've listed all other opposition groups STRICTLY be number of seats in the group and for those with the same number STRICTLY alphabetically. This is a well established custom on wikipedia's infoboxes on parliamentary houses and is the general consensus on all parties. If one believes this should change to reflect what they personally consider is a "real party" or not, the onus is on the user to explain this by showing reliable secondary sources which make this claim (and do so convincingly). A convincing argument has not been made. Until then, please keep disagreements about what are "real parties" to the talk page and keep it there until some kind of consensus on "what is a real party" (if this is even an issue al all to being with) on this talk page and not in the article. Here are links to all of wikipedias relevant policies which I suggest you aquaint yourself with ESPECIALLY the first:
 * BOLD, revert, discuss cycle
 * A user has been bold. We reverted the user. The user must respect this policy
 * Identifying reliable sources
 * Google links are not secondary sources, they aren't reliable sources nor are they relevant sources. The user should respect this policy.
 * Consensus
 * The term "consensus" explains itself. The user must respect this policy...that is...until a consensus arrives.
 * Consensus
 * The term "consensus" explains itself. The user must respect this policy...that is...until a consensus arrives.
 * The term "consensus" explains itself. The user must respect this policy...that is...until a consensus arrives.

 * Last warning.
 * Shabidoo | Talk 15:18, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * What is the justification for regarding all the rest as "Other opposition groups". In which RSs are they described as being "opposition"? They were previously described just as "Other parties/groups". --David Biddulph (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

 * hi David Biddulph this is an extract from this RS http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/opposition-the/

 * The Opposition, formally known as Her Majesty's Official Opposition, refers to the largest political party in the House of Commons that is not in government. The leader of this party takes the title Leader of the Opposition. The role of the Official Opposition is to question and scrutinise the work of the Government. More generally, any party that is not a part of the government is described as an opposition party.
 * regards Domdeparis (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This was my turn to be bold. Technically the unaffiliated are not a party but a group with a spokesman. Also, those not in government or crossbench (nor in the lords spiritual in the UK) they are considered part of the opposition and sit with the opposition in Westminster legislatures. If you think changing party to group...or adding opposition to the title is confusing or misleading...by all means revert it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shabidoo (talk • contribs) 16:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say that all depends on where they sit. When one looks at the seating of the house of lords it becomes terribly clear. The tory peers and the bishops are on the side of the government the crossbenchers are in the middle and everyone else is on the opposition side or opposing side so you only really need to put them under "Other Opposition Parties and Groups" and it should be fine and then comes the problem that seems to irritate our friend Farofil of the order...alphabetical or by size...does size matter I wonder? Domdeparis (talk) 16:41, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Does it matter? No...the world won't end. But if it breaks custom/consensus/continuity-amongst-pages, then the excuse for doing this should be better than "I don't think they are reall parties...I don't have sources...but trust me...I'm right". Shabidoo | Talk 20:04, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It is known they're not real parties because the British Parliament doesn't have anything listed for them: Political parties in Parliament. Farolif (talk) 20:10, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Also from the Parliament official site's page on party system:
 * "MPs and Members of the Lords do not have to belong to a political party. Instead, MPs can sit as Independents and Lords can sit as Crossbenchers or Independents."

- "Independent MPs and Crossbench and Independent Lords"

 * Since the page doesn't specifically mention non-affiliated's anywhere, and we've clearly established that Crossbench is a separate category, is it not reasonable to interpret this explanation as equating "Independents" and non-affiliated's to the point of being indistinguishable from one another? Farolif (talk) 20:24, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You are exhausting...you have found one quote on the web site glossary where they don't make a difference between between non-affiliated and independents but everywhere else on the website these lords are clearly identified with labels of Independent Labour etc etc so no it is not reasonable at all!!!! if it were then they would be qualified as non-affiliated in the directory. You are grabbing at straws to try and prouve that your right and you are patently not so drop it please. Domdeparis (talk) 09:23, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Even if your the parties were not officially considered a party (which is NOT the case here) there is nothing to gain by labelling them as independents. You lose information (that they have separated from the main party, that they identify themselves as outside the group but still align themselves with the party (or at least their platform). I see no convincing reason to remove this information from the infobox and it is highly unlikely you will find a reliable secondary source that explicitly claims they are "just independents". Consider directing your efforts to improving the article's content. Shabidoo | Talk 23:00, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Infobox Structure Image Color
The image representing the composition of the 805 seats in the House of Lords has colors which do not match the colored key provided below it. Specifically, the light blue color code of the Conservative Party does not match the dark blue dots representing this group in the image.

Could this be fixed? Thanks. KevinLiu (talk) 14:01, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Early 1700s composition
Bringing this issue up here first rather than hastily making a change under WP:BOLD; "The size of the House of Lords has varied greatly throughout its history. From about 50 members in the early 1700s,[1 ]..." Unless my sources are incorrect this statements is false. Membership of the House of Lords hovered around 220 members in the early 1700s; I do not know where the 50 members figure has come from. The earliest date in my source is 1714, which lists the composition as follows; Dukes 23, Marquises 2, Earls 74, Viscounts 11, Barons 67, Representing Scotland 16, Archbishops and Bishops 26. A total of 219. Going forward this had grown to 222 members in 1727, 224 in 1760, and by 1820 had jumped to 372. ( Source : Cook, C. and Stevenson, J. (1980). British Historical Facts 1760–1830 . London: The Macmillan Press Ltd., p.50.)

The Electoral Reform Society is obviously a biased group with an agenda against the House of Lords, and maybe doesn't put out the most reliable academic works. If there are no objections, I will change this text and associated text and the associated source shortly. ToastButterToast (talk) 22:44, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

 * Which "my sources" support the 1714 membership composition you state? The source "British Historical Facts 1760–1830" by its very title refers only to the second half of the 1700s and the early 1800s, which does not contradict the "early 1700s" number that was sourced by the Electoral Reform Society article. It's quite conceivable that the number of peers quadrupled between 1700 to 1760 (or even between 1700 and 1714, with the Acts of Union inbetween). 141.100.201.16 (talk) 15:03, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposed abolition
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/constitution/house-lords-reform/news/95433/jeremy-corbyn-next-labour-government-will-abolish

This should probably be added by someone with more knowledge of the topic than I have. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 17:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Controversy: the Lords Spiritual
Many British are atheists. Their number is significant. They have supposedly equal rights, but that name is a disproof, also the Union Jack (UK National Flag), lots of heraldry and regional flags with Christian depictions. Is our tradition to oppress or to respect? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:587:4119:b900:c5cf:dc4b:2fc1:82c6 (talk) 07:01, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is our tradition to respect our nation's history. 31.54.146.71 (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Thrones
Description under thrones picture says "Note that the Sovereign's throne (on left) is raised slightly higher than the consort's.". I'm not familiar how wikipedia works so I apoligize if what I'm about to say is not propper here. My suggestion is to look on how consort cussion is actualy much bigger, so big that consort will in fact seat higher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.61.33.89 (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

"seats membership [sic]"?
In this sentence, "While the House of Commons has a defined number of seats membership [sic], the number of members in the House of Lords is not fixed." Shouldn't that be either seats or membership? Please clarify. Thanks. Autodidact1 (talk) 02:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Links to slavery?
The House of Lords has a long tradition of slavery. Should this be under a controversies section? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/14/as-statues-of-slave-traders-are-torn-down-their-heirs-sit-untouched-in-the-lords — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.69.234.230 (talk) 14:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Lords Spiritual on the plan
In the box labelled 'Structure', the seating for these Lords is shown in bright magenta. However, in the key to the plan, the colour for them is shown as a very bluish purple, totally unlike the magenta on the plan itself. I am well aware that blocks of colour appear different to dots of the same shade, but this is far more different than any other of the dot / block comparisons. I have looked at the 'code', and so far as I am concerned it might as well be in Navajo. Could someone more technical please have a look at this? Other comments on the shade difference would be welcome too. Sarandone2 (talk) 22:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * BTW the reason I have been looking at this article and the article on the Palace of Westminster is that I am trying to find out where a peer newly inheriting his title in 1841 would take his seat. The Palace burned in 1834, the new Lords was opened in 1847. But where the hell were they in betweeen? I might be missing something here, but I can't see a mention of this. Sarandone2 (talk) 23:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Seems like it was changed to that diagram in January. I've reverted it to the old one, as that was in line with the key. As for your second question, I believe that the House of Lords was in the Painted Chamber temporarily, but I'm no expert. Sdrqaz (talk) 00:04, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Sarandone2 (talk) 13:05, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

RfC for use of peerage titles in lists and tables
Across a number of UK government (especially ministry lists such as First Johnson ministry) and parliament articles, peers are referred to in lists and tables by their full formal style and title, rather than by name. Comment is invited as to whether this established practice is compatible with guidelines and WP:MOS. (See Talk:First Johnson ministry.) DBD 22:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This RfC is malformed. What is the question being asked? What does this have to do with the House of Lords article? I suggest a speedy closure. RGloucester  — ☎ 22:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The question appears to be the sentence Comment is invited as to whether this established practice is compatible with guidelines and WP:MOS. Nonetheless, there is no indication that WP:RFCBEFORE has been tried (let alone exhausted), so I'm pulling the tag and leaving the discussion open, for now.  Is this discussion solely about the content of the article House of Lords? If so, fine; but if it concerns several articles, it would be better held at a more central location, such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, this doesn't only involve one article. I did read RFCBEFORE. Of the four other forums listed, I thought this was about a much broader matter of interpreting guidelines than concerns a single WikiProject; RGloucester refused to go to 3O; there are not more than two editors involved; and I'm not seeking general article improvement help.
 * I'm content to start this instead at WP:POLUK, but please would you advise how I can rephrase such that it isn't "malformed". DBD 11:32, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If the question is about a specific MoS guideline, the discussion should be held at the relevant MoS talk page. RGloucester  — ☎ 14:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography it is. DBD 10:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Catholic Lords Spiritual

 * There have been no Roman Catholic clergy appointed, though it was rumoured that Cardinal Basil Hume and his successor Cormac Murphy O'Connor were offered peerages by James Callaghan, Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair respectively, but declined.

We certainly heard the rumours at the time. Is there any evidence? Francis Hannaway (talk) 12:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

And having been left to answer my own query, if these are left as unreferenced rumours, oughtn't w better remove them Francis Hannaway (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Number of members
The number given is significantly lower than the actual number. 62.254.11.238 (talk) 12:29, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  15:14, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * No it’s correct .see Here at parliament.uk AlexBobCharles (talk) 11:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Prayer motions
I've created an article prayer motion for a variety of types of motion that can be introduced by members of the House of Lords; however, I don't know enough about parliamentary procedure to be able to weave a mention of it into this article. Can anyone help? — The Anome (talk) 09:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Membership of the House of Lords cannot be inherited
This is a reminder that as of 1999 membership of the House of Lords cannot be inherited.

90 hereditary peers who sit in the House of Lords are elected by internal by-elections under section 2 of the 1999 Act. Although they inherit their peerage, they do not inherit their seat in the House of Lords.

In regards to the other two hereditary peers: The Earl Marshal is "excepted as holder of the office of Earl Marshal", and the Lord Great Chamberlain is "excepted ... as performing the office of Lord Great Chamberlain." They two do not inherit membership in the House of Lords. Critical Hippo (talk) 13:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

membership in the House of Lords
I read the membership section twice, and I still feel like I don't understand how a person becomes a member. Is there anyone with expertise in this subject? To simplify the language. Make this article more helpful to the layman like myself. Cheers Eatthecrow (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:House of Lords


text:
Hydrogen peroxide

Hydrogen peroxide is a chemical compound with the formula H2O2. In its pure form, it is a very pale blue liquid that is slightly more viscous than water. It is used as an oxidizer, bleaching agent, and antiseptic, usually as a dilute solution (3%–6% by weight) in water for consumer use and in higher concentrations for industrial use. Concentrated hydrogen peroxide, or "high-test peroxide", decomposes explosively when heated and has been used as both a monopropellant and an oxidizer in rocketry.

Hydrogen peroxide is a reactive oxygen species and the simplest peroxide, a compound having an oxygen–oxygen single bond. It decomposes slowly into water and elemental oxygen when exposed to light, and rapidly in the presence of organic or reactive compounds. It is typically stored with a stabilizer in a weakly acidic solution in an opaque bottle. Hydrogen peroxide is found in biological systems including the human body. Enzymes that use or decompose hydrogen peroxide are classified as peroxidases.

Properties
The boiling point of H2O2 has been extrapolated as being 150.2 C, approximately 50 C-change higher than water. In practice, hydrogen peroxide will undergo potentially explosive thermal decomposition if heated to this temperature. It may be safely distilled at lower temperatures under reduced pressure.

Hydrogen peroxide forms stable adducts with urea (hydrogen peroxide–urea), sodium carbonate (sodium percarbonate) and other compounds. An acid-base adduct with triphenylphosphine oxide is a useful "carrier" for H2O2 in some reactions.

Structure
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is a nonplanar molecule with (twisted) C2 symmetry; this was first shown by Paul-Antoine Giguère in 1950 using infrared spectroscopy. Although the O−O bond is a single bond, the molecule has a relatively high rotational barrier of 386 cm−1 (4.62 kJ/mol) for rotation between enantiomers via the trans configuration, and 2460 cm−1 (29.4 kJ/mol) via the cis configuration. These barriers are proposed to be due to repulsion between the lone pairs of the adjacent oxygen atoms and dipolar effects between the two O–H bonds. For comparison, the rotational barrier for ethane is 1040 cm−1 (12.4 kJ/mol).

The approximately 100° dihedral angle between the two O–H bonds makes the molecule chiral. It is the smallest and simplest molecule to exhibit enantiomerism. It has been proposed that the enantiospecific interactions of one rather than the other may have led to amplification of one enantiomeric form of ribonucleic acids and therefore an origin of homochirality in an RNA world.

The molecular structures of gaseous and crystalline H2O2 are significantly different. This difference is attributed to the effects of hydrogen bonding, which is absent in the gaseous state. Crystals of H2O2 are tetragonal with the space group D$4 4$ or P41212.

Aqueous solutions
In aqueous solutions, hydrogen peroxide forms a eutectic mixture, exhibiting freezing-point depression down as low as -56 °C; pure water has a freezing point of 0 °C and pure hydrogen peroxide of -0.43 °C. The boiling point of the same mixtures is also depressed in relation with the mean of both boiling points (125.1 °C). It occurs at 114 °C. This boiling point is 14 °C greater than that of pure water and 36.2 °C less than that of pure hydrogen peroxide.

Hydrogen peroxide is most commonly available as a solution in water. For consumers, it is usually available from pharmacies at 3 and 6 wt% concentrations. The concentrations are sometimes described in terms of the volume of oxygen gas generated; one milliliter of a 20-volume solution generates twenty milliliters of oxygen gas when completely decomposed. For laboratory use, 30 wt% solutions are most common. Commercial grades from 70% to 98% are also available, but due to the potential of solutions of more than 68% hydrogen peroxide to be converted entirely to steam and oxygen (with the temperature of the steam increasing as the concentration increases above 68%) these grades are potentially far more hazardous and require special care in dedicated storage areas. Buyers must typically allow inspection by commercial manufacturers.

Comparison with analogues
Hydrogen peroxide has several structural analogues with H_{m}X\sXH_{n} bonding arrangements (water also shown for comparison). It has the highest (theoretical) boiling point of this series (X = O, S, N, P). Its melting point is also fairly high, being comparable to that of hydrazine and water, with only hydroxylamine crystallising significantly more readily, indicative of particularly strong hydrogen bonding. Diphosphane and hydrogen disulfide exhibit only weak hydrogen bonding and have little chemical similarity to hydrogen peroxide. Structurally, the analogues all adopt similar skewed structures, due to repulsion between adjacent lone pairs.

Natural occurrence
Hydrogen peroxide is produced by various biological processes mediated by enzymes.

Hydrogen peroxide has been detected in surface water, in groundwater, and in the atmosphere. It can also form when water is exposure to UV light. Sea water contains 0.5 to 14 μg/L of hydrogen peroxide, and freshwater contains 1 to 30 μg/L. Concentrations in air are about 0.4 to 4 μg/m3, varying over several orders of magnitude depending in conditions such as season, altitude, daylight and water vapor content. In rural nighttime air it is less than 0.014 μg/m3, and in moderate photochemical smog it is 14 to 42 μg/m3.

The amount of hydrogen peroxide in biological systems can be assayed using a fluorometric assay.

Discovery
Alexander von Humboldt is sometimes said to have been the first to report the first synthetic peroxide, barium peroxide, in 1799 as a by-product of his attempts to decompose air, although this is disputed due to von Humboldt's ambiguous wording. Nineteen years later Louis Jacques Thénard recognized that this compound could be used for the preparation of a previously unknown compound, which he described as eau oxygénée ("oxygenated water") – subsequently known as hydrogen peroxide.

An improved version of Thénard's process used hydrochloric acid, followed by addition of sulfuric acid to precipitate the barium sulfate byproduct. This process was used from the end of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th century.

The bleaching effect of peroxides and their salts on natural dyes had been known since Thénard's experiments in the 1820s, but early attempts of industrial production of peroxides failed. The first plant producing hydrogen peroxide was built in 1873 in Berlin. The discovery of the synthesis of hydrogen peroxide by electrolysis with sulfuric acid introduced the more efficient electrochemical method. It was first commercialized in 1908 in Weißenstein, Carinthia, Austria. The anthraquinone process, which is still used, was developed during the 1930s by the German chemical manufacturer IG Farben in Ludwigshafen. The increased demand and improvements in the synthesis methods resulted in the rise of the annual production of hydrogen peroxide from 35,000 tonnes in 1950, to over 100,000 tonnes in 1960, to 300,000 tonnes by 1970; by 1998 it reached 2.7 million tonnes.

Early attempts failed to produce neat hydrogen peroxide. Anhydrous hydrogen peroxide was first obtained by vacuum distillation.

Determination of the molecular structure of hydrogen peroxide proved to be very difficult. In 1892, the Italian physical chemist Giacomo Carrara (1864–1925) determined its molecular mass by freezing-point depression, which confirmed that its molecular formula is H2O2. H2O\dO seemed to be just as possible as the modern structure, and as late as in the middle of the 20th century at least half a dozen hypothetical isomeric variants of two main options seemed to be consistent with the available evidence. See, for example:
 * In 1882, Kingzett proposed as a structure H2O\dO. See:
 * In his 1922 textbook, Joseph Mellor considered three hypothetical molecular structures for hydrogen peroxide, admitting (p. 952): "... the constitution of this compound has not been yet established by unequivocal experiments". See: Joseph William Mellor, A Comprehensive Treatise on Inorganic and Theoretical Chemistry, vol. 1 (London, England: Longmans, Green and Co., 1922), p. 952–956.
 * W. C. Schumb, C. N. Satterfield, and R. L. Wentworth (1 December 1953) "Report no. 43: Hydrogen peroxide, Part two", Office of Naval Research, Contract No. N5ori-07819 On p. 178, the authors present six hypothetical models (including cis-trans isomers) for hydrogen peroxide's molecular structure. On p. 184, the present structure is considered almost certainly correct—although a small doubt remained. (Note: The report by Schumb et al. was reprinted as: W. C. Schumb, C. N. Satterfield, and R. L. Wentworth, Hydrogen Peroxide (New York, New York: Reinhold Publishing Corp. (American Chemical Society Monograph), 1955).) In 1934, the English mathematical physicist William Penney and the Scottish physicist Gordon Sutherland proposed a molecular structure for hydrogen peroxide that was very similar to the presently accepted one.

Production
In 1994, world production of H2O2 was around 1.9 million tonnes and grew to 2.2 million in 2006, most of which was at a concentration of 70% or less. In that year, bulk 30% H2O2 sold for around 0.54 USD/kg, equivalent to US$1.50/kg (US$0.68/lb) on a "100% basis".

Today, hydrogen peroxide is manufactured almost exclusively by the anthraquinone process, which was originally developed by BASF in 1939. It begins with the reduction of an anthraquinone (such as 2-ethylanthraquinone or the 2-amyl derivative) to the corresponding anthrahydroquinone, typically by hydrogenation on a palladium catalyst. In the presence of oxygen, the anthrahydroquinone then undergoes autoxidation: the labile hydrogen atoms of the hydroxy groups transfer to the oxygen molecule, to give hydrogen peroxide and regenerating the anthraquinone. Most commercial processes achieve oxidation by bubbling compressed air through a solution of the anthrahydroquinone, with the hydrogen peroxide then extracted from the solution and the anthraquinone recycled back for successive cycles of hydrogenation and oxidation.

The net reaction for the anthraquinone-catalyzed process is:

 * H2 + O2 → H2O2

The economics of the process depend heavily on effective recycling of the extraction solvents, the hydrogenation catalyst and the expensive quinone.

Historical methods
Hydrogen peroxide was once prepared industrially by hydrolysis of ammonium persulfate:
 * [NH4]2S2O8 + 2 H2O -> 2 [NH4]HSO4 + H2O2

[NH4]2S2O4 was itself obtained by the electrolysis of a solution of ammonium bisulfate ([NH4]HSO4) in sulfuric acid.

Other routes
Small amounts are formed by electrolysis, photochemistry, and electric arc, and related methods.

A commercially viable route for hydrogen peroxide via the reaction of hydrogen with oxygen favours production of water but can be stopped at the peroxide stage. One economic obstacle has been that direct processes give a dilute solution uneconomic for transportation. None of these has yet reached a point where it can be used for industrial-scale synthesis.

Acid-base
Hydrogen peroxide is about 1000 times stronger as an acid than water.
 * H2O2 <-> H+ + HO2-     pK = 11.65

Disproportionation
Hydrogen peroxide disproportionates to form water and oxygen with a ΔHo of –2884.5 kJ/kg and a ΔS of 70.5 J/(mol·K):

 * 2 H2O2 -> 2 H2O + O2

The rate of decomposition increases with rise in temperature, concentration, and pH. H2O2 is unstable under alkaline conditions. Decomposition is catalysed by various redox-active ions or compounds, including most transition metals and their compounds (e.g. manganese dioxide (MnO2), silver, and platinum).

Oxidation reactions
The redox properties of hydrogen peroxide depend on pH. In acidic solutions, H2O2 is a powerful oxidizer.

Sulfite (SO3(2−)) is oxidized to sulfate (SO4(2−)).

Reduction reactions
Under alkaline conditions, hydrogen peroxide is a reductant. When H2O2 acts as a reducing agent, oxygen gas is also produced. For example, hydrogen peroxide will reduce sodium hypochlorite and potassium permanganate, which is a convenient method for preparing oxygen in the laboratory:
 * NaOCl + H2O2 -> O2 + NaCl + H2O
 * 2 KMnO4 + 3 H2O2 -> 2 MnO2 + 2 KOH + 2 H2O + 3 O2

The oxygen produced from hydrogen peroxide and sodium hypochlorite is in the singlet state.

Although usually a reductant, alkaline hydrogen peroxide converts Mn(II) to the dioxide:
 * H2O2 + Mn(2+) + 2 OH- -> MnO2 + 2 H2O

In a related reaction, potassium permanganate is reduced to Mn(2+) by acidic H2O2:
 * 2 MnO4- + 5 H2O2 + 6 H+ -> 2 Mn^{2+} + 8 H2O + 5 O2

Organic reactions
Hydrogen peroxide is frequently used as an oxidizing agent. Illustrative is oxidation of thioethers to sulfoxides:
 * Ph\-S\-CH3 + H2O2 -> Ph\-S(O)\-CH3 + H2O

Alkaline hydrogen peroxide is used for epoxidation of electron-deficient alkenes such as acrylic acid derivatives, and for the oxidation of alkylboranes to alcohols, the second step of hydroboration-oxidation. It is also the principal reagent in the Dakin oxidation process.

Precursor to other peroxide compounds
Hydrogen peroxide is a weak acid, forming hydroperoxide or peroxide salts with many metals.

It also converts metal oxides into the corresponding peroxides. For example, upon treatment with hydrogen peroxide, chromic acid (CrO3 and H2SO4) forms a blue peroxide CrO(O2)2.

Production
The aerobic oxidation of glucose in the presence of the enzyme glucose oxidase produces hydrogen peroxide. The conversion affords gluconolactone:
 * C6H12O7 + O2 -> C6H10O7 + H2O2

Superoxide dismutases (SOD)s are enzymes that promote the disproportionation of superoxide into oxygen and hydrogen peroxide.

 * 2 O2- + 2 H+ -> O2 + H2O2
 * 2 H2O2 -> O2 + 2 H2O

Peroxisomes are organelles found in virtually all eukaryotic cells. They are involved in the catabolism of very long chain fatty acids, branched chain fatty acids, D -amino acids, polyamines, and biosynthesis of plasmalogens, ether phospholipids, which are found in mammalian brains and lungs. They produce hydrogen peroxide in s process catalyzed by flavin adenine dinucleotide (FAD):

 * R\-CH2\-CH2\-CO\-SCoA + O2 R\-CH\dCH\-CO\-SCoA + H2O2

Hydrogen peroxide arises by the degradation of adenosine monophosphate, which yields hypoxanthine. Hypoxanthine is then oxidatively catabolized first to xanthine and then to uric acid, and the reaction is catalyzed by the enzyme xanthine oxidase:

The degradation of guanosine monophosphate yields xanthine as an intermediate product which is then converted in the same way to uric acid with the formation of hydrogen peroxide.

Consumption
Catalase, another peroxisomal enzyme, uses this H2O2 to oxidize other substrates, including phenols, formic acid, formaldehyde, and alcohol, by means of a peroxidation reaction:
 * H2O2 + R'H2 -> R' + 2 H2O

thus eliminating the poisonous hydrogen peroxide in the process.

This reaction is important in liver and kidney cells, where the peroxisomes neutralize various toxic substances that enter the blood. Some of the ethanol humans drink is oxidized to acetaldehyde in this way. In addition, when excess H2O2 accumulates in the cell, catalase converts it to H2O through this reaction:
 * H2O2 -> 0.5 O2 + H2O

Glutathione peroxidase, a selenoenzyme, also catalyzes the disproportionation of hydrogen peroxide.

Fenton reaction
The reaction of Fe(2+) and hydrogen peroxide is the basis of the Fenton reaction, which generates hydroxyl radicals, which are of significance in biology:
 * Fe(II) + H2O2 -> Fe(III)OH + HO*

The fenton reaction explains the toxicity of hydrogen peroxides because the hydroxyl radicals rapidly and irreversibly oxidize all organic compounds, including proteins, membrane lipids, and DNA. Hydrogen peroxide is a significant source of oxidative DNA damage in living cells. DNA damage includes formation of 8-Oxo-2'-deoxyguanosine among many other altered bases, as well as strand breaks, inter-strand crosslinks, and deoxyribose damage. By interacting with Cl¯ hydrogen peroxide also lead to chlorinated DNA bases. Hydroxyl radicals readily damage vital cellular components, especially those of the mitochondria. The compound is a major factor implicated in the free-radical theory of aging, based on its ready conversion into a hydroxyl radical.

Function
Eggs of sea urchin, shortly after fertilization by a sperm, produce hydrogen peroxide. It is then converted to hydroxyl radicals (HO•), which initiate radical polymerization, which surrounds the eggs with a protective layer of polymer.

The bombardier beetle combine hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide, leading to a violent exothermic chemical reaction to produce boiling, foul-smelling liquid that partially becomes a gas (flash evaporation) and is expelled through an outlet valve with a loud popping sound.

As a proposed signaling molecule, hydrogen peroxide may regulate of a wide variety of biological processes.

At least one study has also tried to link hydrogen peroxide production to cancer.

Bleaching
About 60% of the world's production of hydrogen peroxide is used for pulp- and paper-bleaching. The second major industrial application is the manufacture of sodium percarbonate and sodium perborate, which are used as mild bleaches in laundry detergents. A representative conversion is:
 * Na2B4O7 + 4 H2O2 + 2 NaOH -> 2 Na2B2O4(OH)4 + H2O

Sodium percarbonate, which is an adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, is the active ingredient in such laundry products as OxiClean and Tide laundry detergent. When dissolved in water, it releases hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. By themselves these bleaching agents are only effective at wash temperatures of 60 C or above and so, often are used in conjunction with bleach activators, which facilitate cleaning at lower temperatures.

Hydrogen peroxide has also been used as a flour bleaching agent and a tooth and bone whitening agent.

Production of organic peroxy compounds
It is used in the production of various organic peroxides with dibenzoyl peroxide being a high volume example. Peroxy acids, such as peracetic acid and meta-chloroperoxybenzoic acid also are produced using hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen peroxide has been used for creating organic peroxide-based explosives, such as acetone peroxide. It is used as an initiator in polymerizations. Hydrogen peroxide reacts with certain di-esters, such as phenyl oxalate ester (cyalume), to produce chemiluminescence; this application is most commonly encountered in the form of glow sticks.

Production of inorganic peroxides
The reaction with borax leads to sodium perborate, a bleach used in laundry detergents:
 * Na2B4O7 + 4 H2O2 + 2 NaOH -> 2 Na2B2O4(OH)4 + H2O

Sewage treatment
Hydrogen peroxide is used in certain waste-water treatment processes to remove organic impurities. In advanced oxidation processing, the Fenton reaction gives the highly reactive hydroxyl radical (•OH). This degrades organic compounds, including those that are ordinarily robust, such as aromatic or halogenated compounds. It can also oxidize sulfur-based compounds present in the waste; which is beneficial as it generally reduces their odour.

Disinfectant
Hydrogen peroxide may be used for the sterilization of various surfaces, including surgical tools, and may be deployed as a vapour (VHP) for room sterilization. H2O2 demonstrates broad-spectrum efficacy against viruses, bacteria, yeasts, and bacterial spores. In general, greater activity is seen against Gram-positive than Gram-negative bacteria; however, the presence of catalase or other peroxidases in these organisms may increase tolerance in the presence of lower concentrations. Lower levels of concentration (3%) will work against most spores; higher concentrations (7 to 30%) and longer contact times will improve sporicidal activity.

Hydrogen peroxide is seen as an environmentally safe alternative to chlorine-based bleaches, as it degrades to form oxygen and water and it is generally recognized as safe as an antimicrobial agent by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

Propellant
High-concentration H2O2 is referred to as "high-test peroxide" (HTP). It can be used as either a monopropellant (not mixed with fuel) or the oxidizer component of a bipropellant rocket. Use as a monopropellant takes advantage of the decomposition of 70–98% concentration hydrogen peroxide into steam and oxygen. The propellant is pumped into a reaction chamber, where a catalyst, usually a silver or platinum screen, triggers decomposition, producing steam at over 600 C, which is expelled through a nozzle, generating thrust. H2O2 monopropellant produces a maximal specific impulse (Isp) of 161 s (1.6 kN·s/kg). Peroxide was the first major monopropellant adopted for use in rocket applications. Hydrazine eventually replaced hydrogen-peroxide monopropellant thruster applications primarily because of a 25% increase in the vacuum specific impulse. Hydrazine (toxic) and hydrogen peroxide (less-toxic [ACGIH TLV 0.01 and 1 ppm respectively]) are the only two monopropellants (other than cold gases) to have been widely adopted and utilized for propulsion and power applications. The Bell Rocket Belt, reaction control systems for X-1, X-15, Centaur, Mercury, Little Joe, as well as the turbo-pump gas generators for X-1, X-15, Jupiter, Redstone and Viking used hydrogen peroxide as a monopropellant. The RD-107 engines (used from 1957 to present) in the R-7 series of rockets decompose hydrogen peroxide to power the turbopumps.

In bipropellant applications, H2O2 is decomposed to oxidize a burning fuel. Specific impulses as high as 350 s (3.5 kN·s/kg) can be achieved, depending on the fuel. Peroxide used as an oxidizer gives a somewhat lower Isp than liquid oxygen but is dense, storable, and non-cryogenic and can be more easily used to drive gas turbines to give high pressures using an efficient closed cycle. It may also be used for regenerative cooling of rocket engines. Peroxide was used very successfully as an oxidizer in World War II German rocket motors (e.g., T-Stoff, containing oxyquinoline stabilizer, for both the Walter HWK 109-500 Starthilfe RATO externally podded monopropellant booster system and the Walter HWK 109-509 rocket motor series used for the Me 163B), most often used with C-Stoff in a self-igniting hypergolic combination, and for the low-cost British Black Knight and Black Arrow launchers. Presently, HTP is used on ILR-33 AMBER and Nucleus suborbital rockets.

In the 1940s and 1950s, the Hellmuth Walter KG–conceived turbine used hydrogen peroxide for use in submarines while submerged; it was found to be too noisy and require too much maintenance compared to diesel-electric power systems. Some torpedoes used hydrogen peroxide as oxidizer or propellant. Operator error in the use of hydrogen-peroxide torpedoes was named as possible causes for the sinking of HMS Sidon and the Russian submarine Kursk. SAAB Underwater Systems is manufacturing the Torpedo 2000. This torpedo, used by the Swedish Navy, is powered by a piston engine propelled by HTP as an oxidizer and kerosene as a fuel in a bipropellant system.

Household use
Hydrogen peroxide has various domestic uses, primarily as a cleaning and disinfecting agent.

Diluted H2O2 (between 1.9% and 12%) mixed with aqueous ammonia has been used to bleach human hair. The chemical's bleaching property lends its name to the phrase "peroxide blonde". Hydrogen peroxide is also used for tooth whitening. It may be found in most whitening toothpastes. Hydrogen peroxide has shown positive results involving teeth lightness and chroma shade parameters. It works by oxidizing colored pigments onto the enamel where the shade of the tooth may become lighter. Hydrogen peroxide may be mixed with baking soda and salt to make a homemade toothpaste.
 * Hair bleaching

Hydrogen peroxide reacts with blood as a bleaching agent, and so if a blood stain is fresh, or not too old, liberal application of hydrogen peroxide, if necessary in more than single application, will bleach the stain fully out. After about two minutes of the application, the blood should be firmly blotted out.
 * Removal of blood stains

Hydrogen peroxide may be used to treat acne, although benzoyl peroxide is a more common treatment.
 * Acne treatment

The use of dilute hydrogen peroxide as a oral cleansing agent has been reviewed academically to determine its usefulness in treating gingivitis and plaque. Although there is a positive effect when compared with a placebo, it was concluded that chlorhexidine is a much more effective treatment.
 * Oral cleaning agent

Niche uses
Some horticulturists and users of hydroponics advocate the use of weak hydrogen peroxide solution in watering solutions. Its spontaneous decomposition releases oxygen that enhances a plant's root development and helps to treat root rot (cellular root death due to lack of oxygen) and a variety of other pests.
 * Horticulture

For general watering concentrations, around 0.1% is in use. This can be increased up to one percent for antifungal actions. Tests show that plant foliage can safely tolerate concentrations up to 3%.

Hydrogen peroxide is used in aquaculture for controlling mortality caused by various microbes. In 2019, the U.S. FDA approved it for control of Saprolegniasis in all coldwater finfish and all fingerling and adult coolwater and warmwater finfish, for control of external columnaris disease in warm-water finfish, and for control of Gyrodactylus spp. in freshwater-reared salmonids. Laboratory tests conducted by fish culturists have demonstrated that common household hydrogen peroxide may be used safely to provide oxygen for small fish. The hydrogen peroxide releases oxygen by decomposition when it is exposed to catalysts such as manganese dioxide.
 * Fishkeeping

Hydrogen peroxide may be used in combination with a UV-light source to remove yellowing from white or light grey acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) plastics to partially or fully restore the original color. In the retrocomputing scene, this process is commonly referred to as retrobright.
 * Removing yellowing from aged plastics

Safety
Regulations vary, but low concentrations, such as 5%, are widely available and legal to buy for medical use. Most over-the-counter peroxide solutions are not suitable for ingestion. Higher concentrations may be considered hazardous and typically are accompanied by a safety data sheet (SDS). In high concentrations, hydrogen peroxide is an aggressive oxidizer and will corrode many materials, including human skin. In the presence of a reducing agent, high concentrations of H2O2 will react violently. While concentrations up to 35% produce only "white" oxygen bubbles in the skin (and some biting pain) that disappear with the blood within 30–45 minutes, concentrations of 98% dissolve paper. However, concentrations as low as 3% can be dangerous for the eye because of oxygen evolution within the eye.

High-concentration hydrogen peroxide streams, typically above 40%, should be considered hazardous due to concentrated hydrogen peroxide's meeting the definition of a DOT oxidizer according to U.S. regulations if released into the environment. The EPA Reportable Quantity (RQ) for D001 hazardous wastes is 100 lb, or approximately 10 USgal, of concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen peroxide should be stored in a cool, dry, well-ventilated area and away from any flammable or combustible substances. It should be stored in a container composed of non-reactive materials such as stainless steel or glass (other materials including some plastics and aluminium alloys may also be suitable). Because it breaks down quickly when exposed to light, it should be stored in an opaque container, and pharmaceutical formulations typically come in brown bottles that block light.

Hydrogen peroxide, either in pure or diluted form, may pose several risks, the main one being that it forms explosive mixtures upon contact with organic compounds. Distillation of hydrogen peroxide at normal pressures is highly dangerous. It is also corrosive, especially when concentrated, but even domestic-strength solutions may cause irritation to the eyes, mucous membranes, and skin. Swallowing hydrogen peroxide solutions is particularly dangerous, as decomposition in the stomach releases large quantities of gas (ten times the volume of a 3% solution), leading to internal bloating. Inhaling over 10% can cause severe pulmonary irritation.

With a significant vapour pressure (1.2 kPa at 50 °C), hydrogen-peroxide vapour is potentially hazardous. According to U.S. NIOSH, the immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH) limit is only 75 ppm. The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has established a permissible exposure limit of 1.0 ppm calculated as an 8-hour time-weighted average (29 CFR 1910.1000, Table Z-1). Hydrogen peroxide also has been classified by the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) as a "known animal carcinogen, with unknown relevance on humans". For workplaces where there is a risk of exposure to the hazardous concentrations of the vapours, continuous monitors for hydrogen peroxide should be used. Information on the hazards of hydrogen peroxide is available from OSHA and from the ATSDR.

Wound healing
Historically, hydrogen peroxide was used for disinfecting wounds, partly because of its low cost and prompt availability compared to other antiseptics.

There is conflicting evidence on hydrogen peroxide's effect on wound healing. Some research finds benefit, while other research find delays and healing inhibition. Its use for home treatment of wounds is generally not recommended. 1.5–3% hydrogen peroxide is used as a disinfectant in dentistry, especially in endodotic treatments together with hypochlorite and chlorhexidin and 1–1.5% is also useful for treatment of inflammation of third molars (wisdom teeth).

Use in alternative medicine
Practitioners of alternative medicine have advocated the use of hydrogen peroxide for various conditions, including emphysema, influenza, AIDS, and in particular cancer. There is no evidence of effectiveness and in some cases it has proved fatal.

Both the effectiveness and safety of hydrogen peroxide therapy is scientifically questionable. Hydrogen peroxide is produced by the immune system, but in a carefully controlled manner. Cells called phagocytes engulf pathogens and then use hydrogen peroxide to destroy them. The peroxide is toxic to both the cell and the pathogen and so is kept within a special compartment, called a phagosome. Free hydrogen peroxide will damage any tissue it encounters via oxidative stress, a process that also has been proposed as a cause of cancer. Claims that hydrogen peroxide therapy increases cellular levels of oxygen have not been supported. The quantities administered would be expected to provide very little additional oxygen compared to that available from normal respiration. It is also difficult to raise the level of oxygen around cancer cells within a tumour, as the blood supply tends to be poor, a situation known as tumor hypoxia.

Large oral doses of hydrogen peroxide at a 3% concentration may cause irritation and blistering to the mouth, throat, and abdomen as well as abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. Ingestion of hydrogen peroxide at concentrations of 35% or higher has been implicated as the cause of numerous gas embolism events resulting in hospitalisation. In these cases, hyperbaric oxygen therapy was used to treat the embolisms.

Intravenous injection of hydrogen peroxide has been linked to several deaths. The American Cancer Society states that "there is no scientific evidence that hydrogen peroxide is a safe, effective, or useful cancer treatment." Furthermore, the therapy is not approved by the U.S. FDA.

Historical incidents

 * On 16 July 1934, in Kummersdorf, Germany, a propellant tank containing an experimental monopropellant mixture consisting of hydrogen peroxide and ethanol exploded during a test, killing three people.
 * During the Second World War, doctors in German concentration camps experimented with the use of hydrogen peroxide injections in the killing of human subjects.
 * In December 1943, the pilot Josef Pöhs died after being exposed to the T-Stoff of his Messerschmitt Me 163.
 * In June 1955, Royal Navy submarine HMS Sidon sank after leaking high-test peroxide in a torpedo caused it to explode in its tube, killing twelve crew members; a member of the rescue party also succumbed.
 * In April 1992, an explosion occurred at the hydrogen peroxide plant at Jarrie in France, due to technical failure of the computerised control system and resulting in one fatality and wide destruction of the plant.
 * Several people received minor injuries after a hydrogen peroxide spill on board a Northwest Airlines flight from Orlando, Florida to Memphis, Tennessee on 28 October 1998.
 * The Russian submarine K-141 Kursk sailed to perform an exercise of firing dummy torpedoes at the Pyotr Velikiy, a Kirov-class battlecruiser. On 12 August 2000, at 11:28 local time (07:28 UTC), there was an explosion while preparing to fire the torpedoes. The only credible report to date is that this was due to the failure and explosion of one of the Kursk's hydrogen peroxide-fueled torpedoes. It is believed that HTP, a form of highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide used as propellant for the torpedo, seeped through its container, damaged either by rust or in the loading procedure on land where an incident involving one of the torpedoes accidentally touching ground went unreported. The vessel was lost with all hands.
 * On 15 August 2010, a spill of about 30 USgal of cleaning fluid occurred on the 54th floor of 1515 Broadway, in Times Square, New York City. The spill, which a spokesperson for the New York City Fire Department said was of hydrogen peroxide, shut down Broadway between West 42nd and West 48th streets as fire engines responded to the hazmat situation. There were no reported injuries.

title: Hydrogen peroxide