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Talk:MDMA/Archive 1

I have problems with things throughout this whole article
As this is a highly controlled drug which is illegal in the United States, unbiased and reputable sources on the subject are hard to find. As this is not a well known subject, we should only trust sources such as science journals and scholarly articles. I have problems with some of our sources.... I think that the information here is a little biased in favor of the drug... 24.13.78.4 04:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Biased in favour of the drug? It's more a matter of other sources not getting the right information and making MDMA out to be more dangerous than it is. Every well-researched resource done by educated people about MDMA shows that it isn't dangerous - because it isn't dangerous.
 * Saying MDMA isn't dangerous is pretty stupid. Sure, when taken responsibly by educated users there might be next no adverse effects, but this doesn't mean it's not a dangerous drug. There's a risk involved when taking any stimulant, although it may be slight, it should not be ignored or denied. Speaking of 'ecstasy' rather than pure MDMA there's an even bigger risk as you don't know what's in the pill unless you test it (which few people do), it could have all kinds of adulterants in it and you wouldn't know. People look at this website for concise information, so please be careful about what you say.
 * Government drug websites and "drug facts" sources claim crap like MDMA (methylenedioxymethamphetamine) being similar to methamphetamine (crystal/ice) in both its chemistry and effects - it's complete rubbish.
 * If you were better informed, you might realise that MDMA is merely methamphetamine with a methylenedioxy ring attached to the benzene, hence, methylenedioxy-methamphetamine. And in fact, it _does_ have a stimulant effect by the same mode of action as meth. Nevertheless, "similar" is not good enough in this case, as it does do a number of things methamphetamine doesn't, and it's a much much weaker stimulant. 60.224.48.152 05:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The fact that mdma can come with adulterants, has little connection to how dangerous actual mdma is. Which it isnt. Illegal drugs are given to us by criminals, not the goverment, hence there not as pure.

 * I did mention I was talking about ecstasy (the pills sold on the street by drug dealers) rather than pure mdma when I spoke of adulterants. Anyway, are you really trying to tell me that a drug that highly increases body temperature is not dangerous? There's a reason most mdma related deaths are down to severe dehydration (overheating) or overhydration (often as a result of panicking about overheating or trying to get rid of the drymouth side effect.) Sure, you could argue that those deaths might not have occured if the user had sipped water sensibly or drank something that increased sodium levels, but in most cases they wouldn't have happened without the drug either. Any drug that increases heart rate, body temperature or acts on the CNS is dangerous to an extent. In fact, a simple increase in energy is a potentially dangerous effect which could lead to overexertion (dancing all night, the oh so popular tale ring a bell?) In regards to lethal doses (LD50 = 100-300mg/kg) you're right, mdma is relatively safe, however, high doses of mdma can make people almost completely lose their inhibitions (worse than alcohol), become unresponsive and hallucinate. These effects can also play a part in irresponsible actions taken by users. Please note that I'm not biased against the drug, I simply want to point out potentially dangerous effects that could arise from irresponsible ecstasy use.

The body temperature thing is a minor problem. Mdma is a stimulant, meaning it speeds up your cns, but that doesnt mean your body doesnt dehydrate if you overwork. And your right, drinking responsibly, and sodium level etc makes ecstacy a safe drug. Did you know that ecstasy is illegal because ppl do it for fun, or other recreational reasons. Not because you can die from it, i believe only 7-8 deaths can be connected to ecstasy. Prescription medicine is also dangerous, even aspirin causes more deaths and overdoses than ecstasy. But at least they come from a doctor, and with specific guidelines.. ie no more than 2 a day, etc. Otherwise you can overdose and die! Your argument connects dangers of ecstasy by pointing out the mistakes of the inexperienced. Very ridicuous logic.

 * I wouldn't call it ridiculous logic. I was replying to the comment about how it isn't dangerous, when it clearly is. Obviously it wouldn't cause half as many problems if it could be purchased in a box with clear instructions of use written on the back from the pharmacy, but that wasn't the point being discussed.

 * The body temperature thing isn't a big deal. Of course there's an inherent danger in almost anything.  People should be given the facts and decide their own level of acceptable risk.  Is MDMA more dangerous than say skateboarding or cycling?

 * I don't know how one decides how to define big deal, but repeated studies have shown that the toxicity to the seratonin system resulting from high-dose MDMA use is directly related to the increase in body temperature, ie., animals with artificially lowered body temperatures during MDMA administration do not seem to experience the same damage that occurs in animals exposed to MDMA without these temperature controls. This is not related to hydration.  Adrade 20:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Alkivar: Hyponatremia as side effect
Alkivar: this item you keep adding in is totally false, and your casual citations in edits of "FDA statements" are baseless. The FDA has not made any such statements.

First: hyponatremia is hyper-hydration, not dehydration. Opposites.

Second: in the unbelievably rare instances of hyponatremia in patients who have used MDMA, it is due to a patient overhydrating themselves - ingesting fatal amounts of water; not by direct action of the drug.

 * I disagree. The drug stimulates the part of the hypothalamus that controls the thirst drive.  It is a direct result of the drug that you want to drink like a fish.  Much like it is the direct result of your immune system making you feel cold and make you want to get a blanket to raise your body temperature giving yourself a fever.

Third: even if the first two parts of your premise held true, it would be logically inconsistent; it would not be a "chronic side effect". Hyponatremia cases are acute, not chronic. It is a result of bad judgment made by a user in a single experience - not as a result of chronic use.

This is akin to saying that totalling a Ferrari is a side effect to chronic alcohol usage. In one in a million instances, it will happen if some moron gets drunk and takes a Ferrari onto Ocean Drive, but no serious medical scholar considers totaled Ferraris to be a side effect of chronic alcohol usage. It is intellectually puddle-deep.

And finally: hyponatremia cannot exist as a chronic condition. A human generally cannot sustain hyponatremia for more than a few hours without severe brain and organ damage.

So please provide verifiable evidence for this false statement, which I know you will not find anywhere, or stop adding it back in. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.172.70.31 (talk • contribs).

 * Mostly agreed, hyponatremia is not a direct physiologic consequence of MDMA ingestion. However if documented deaths exist from hyponatremia while under the influence of MDMA it warrants mention in this article, properly cited and contextualized, of course. It should be noted that DWI (and related injuries or death) is, in fact, considered a significant risk of alcohol use/abuse/addiction, despite it being a quite indirect effect of the substance. --Bk0 (Talk) 03:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

 * agree, and would say hyponatremia is well-treated in the article already. but to suggest that it, or its opposite (dehydration) are side effects relating to chronic use is not supported by the facts. --Anthony Citrano 04:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Freeform Discussion
I added
 * As with any drug it is much safer if you do decide to take ecstacy to take it with people who have experienced its effects before, and as it affects your emotions and mental state to such a large extent it would certainly be advisable to take it for the first time with people you can trust.

to the safety advice

I changed "psychoactive substance" to "synthetic drug" because it didn't say anywhere in the article that ecstasy is synthetic.
 * It is usually synthesized from safrole, a naturally occurring substance.

"I changed "psychoactive substance" to "synthetic drug" because it didn't say anywhere in the article that ecstasy is synthetic."

Well, its synthetic till proven natural. I know of a scientist who believes he might have found MDMA naturally occouring although this is still being verified.

Moved to talk:

FDA language - the FDA did not approve it for "research into the use in patients" - they approved actual administration of the drug to patients in two PTSD programs. I have reverted it to the previous language. If anyone has a beef with this, please read the FDA approval or the IRB protocol. The fact is: the FDA has approved clinical trials with human administration of MDMA, therefore the previous language ("for use in patients") is more accurate than "research into use".

"Despite popular belief, the drug is not very deadly: the LD50 is 100mg/kg or roughly 70 standard quality clandestine pills. (LD50 is the amount of a substance at which half of those will take this amount will die.)

The dangers today is largely believed to be of a more mental aspect. Severe depression is regarded as the most evident."

 * Note that this could be taken to mean that 25% of those who take 35 pills or approximately 2% of those who take three pills will die. However, there is no requirement that the LD50 scale linearly - it could be 0.005% at three pills or 40% - there's no way to tell from the LD50 alone. Also note that the LD50 tells nothing about other side effects - a hypothetical drug might have an LD50 of 75 pills, but 80% of people who take even one pill are rendered permanently parapalegic.

 * I agree that the LD50 is unreliable information (especially since its based on the physiology of a rat), but it is true that MDMA is very unlikely to cause death at virtually any imaginable dose. The few deaths that have occurred related to ecstasy consumption have been related to auxiliary factors - severe hepatotoxicity caused by missing liver enzymes or the co-consumption of other drugs.  This is not to say that ecstasy doesn't likely cause severe damage to the serotonin distribution system of the brain after administration of large dosages - because it most likely does. --Adrade 10:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

What about other types of "extacsy," such as religious or sexual? F. Lee Horn

 * If they're worthy of an encyclopedia article, we have articles called "religious ecstasy" or "sexual ecstasy", and move the contents of this to "ecstasy drug" or similar. We then make up a "pointer page" on the parent to this page pointing to the two or three articles.  However, we should probably keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a dictionary.  --Robert Merkel

 * I realize this, although I seem to see quite a few articles which are not much more than dictionary style definitions. Thank you for the pointers on creating the articles, though. : ) F. Lee Horn

 * This should really be under MDMA.

 * No it shouldn't. "Ecstasy" is seldom pure MDMA. Ecstasy can be/is usually a mix of chemicals, the majority of which may or may not be MDMA.

 * Ecstasy is just the street name of MDMA. It does not matter whether or not it is cut with other things.

There's more to be said about the effects of the drug; it's been called an "empathogen" because of the way it breaks down barriers between people (this is why Shulgin and others were using it in psychotherapy). Also, towards the end of the article it talks about serotonin receptors, but nowhere is it mentioned that MDMA is an SSRI. XTC was another street name. (These are mostly notes to myself; when I get time, and if nobody beats me to it, I'll make these changes...)
 * Does that mean if I get a prescription for SSRIs from my doctor, I can take enough of them and get ecstacsy-like effects? :) Also, does ecstacsy have any risk of causing serotonin syndrome? -- SJK

 * No you can't. MDMA does not act like an SSRI.  In fact SSRI's counteract the effects of MDMA.  You can experience the effect of a high SSRI dose by taking tryptophan.

- Well the dosage most people take in street E is way in excess of the usual pharmacological dosage of things like anti-depression drugs. I assume weird stuff would happen if you OD'd on prescription drugs but its not a course I'd recommend. Very few of the E related deaths have been due to overdose, those that weren't ascribed to external factors (too much/little water etc) where usually put down as allergic reactions. The little experimental evidence so far suggests that long term excessive generation of seratonin causes burn out with low seratonin levels when not under the effect of the drug.

 * SSRI-type anti-depressants should also then cause this burn out.

 * You can't compare the dosage of MDMA to any SSRI, anymore than you can compare the dosage of one SSRI to another. Each drug has its own threshold and active dose.

- I love shulgin...

SSRIs do half of what MDMA does. They inhibit the reuptake of serotonin to the recepters. MDMA does that as well as flooding your brain with serotonin. The result is lots of serotonin in your brain, and your brain is unable to "reuptake" it (i.e. get rid of extra). If you take a bunch of SSRIs you get sick, dizzy, nauseated, lightheaded, with excessive yawning. (I did it when I was 14 to see what would happen. ha.)

Many dangers associated with "ecstacy" are because pressed pills people buy on the street are almost always cut with other substances- amphetamines, MDA, ketamine, caffeine, etc. There are websites where you can look up your pill (the color and mark on it) and see a chemical analysis of its content. There are also pill-testing kits you can buy online. Sometimes they have no MDMA at all, often substituting MDA, which has very similar effects, but is more likely to induce running around telling everyone you love them. Pure MDMA has a mellow, calm, more rational feeling than pressed pills, which make you feel speedy and overly affectionate. parallax

 * Some of that is just subjective. A large percentage of street pills are just MDMA.

 * While some of this is just subjective, "a large percentage of street pills are just MDMA" is only an opinion. I've seen people prepare the powder and i've seen the pills, which are always larger then 100-150milligrams. So "something" is being used as a filler, and dealers are trying to make money so if they can cut other drugs into it to make it (the pills) more addictive, or to make more money, i doubt they would think twice because "the pills wouldnt be pure anymore" they can say anything they want and people will believe it.

It's been reported in some sources that long- (and possibly medium-) term ecstasy use can lead to depression and especially unnatural paranoia, which I don't see mentioned here. Anyone have any reliable information? --Delirium 07:42 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not really. There are very few proper studies on Ecstasy (and many other illeagal/non-prescription drugs) and its long term effects. Those that are often contridict or are mis-reported in drug education campaigns. However this is not to say that such effects do not occur but the body of eveidence is low compared to other drugs.

A lot of information that users use is anecdotal or hypothesis of experienced professionsals.

Decent research is a general problem with all recreational drugs unfortunatly. Alex

 * The theory about MDMA causing depression is based on the "comedown" period after use, where serotonin levels drop. In theory repeated use of MDMA would result in the brain reaching a state where it is no longer able to replenish serotonin levels adequately, however there are some ways of negating this.
 * I have chronic depression, for which I take 100mg of 5-HTP daily. I've found that SSRIs and MAOIs tend to exacerbate my depression, a situation made worse by the side-effects of the drugs - I found I was better off without them. 5-HTP has very few side-effects, none of which I've yet felt, and has thus far been much more effective - unlike before, I'm now able to consciously control the condition.
 * 5-HTP works by increasing the amount of serotonin the brain is able to produce, which means it is much safer than SSRIs since the overdose risk is much less, and it can help 'level out' serotonin production. A serotonin spike caused by a drug like MDMA would therefore not be followed by a trough.
 * I've been using MDMA on a monthly basis for the past eight months, and so far have had no ill effects - in fact, my depression has become less of a problem. I do not know anyone who uses or has used MDMA who suffers from depression as a result of MDMA use, and in the majority of cases these are people who take 5-HTP alongside MDMA. In some cases, these are people who have been using MDMA for fifteen years or more. 23:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Extremely heavy users can suffer depression. Average users do often find they're actually happier overall.

 * There actually is quite a bit of literature on the topic of long-term psychoaffective consequences to MDMA use - just search through PubMed - lots of research has been done. Mental disorders in current and former heavy ecstasy MDMA users. - Long term psychiatric and cognitive effects of MDMA use. - Long-term neuropsychiatric consequences of "ecstasy" MDMA: a review. Adrade 20:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm rephrasing the "enitre months supply" because as far as I can tell no research that points to the amount dumped, and it will be subjective and related to dose... Alex

Hey, I just wanted to make a note here: I'm going to remove the phrase "notwithstanding the tremendous amount of FUD propagated through the media by well-financed, politically motivated anti-drug groups (including some scientists)." due to its inherently POV nature. Any problems?

 * The statement is fact.

MDMA is said to have been used during world war II on the Russian Front by the Germans

In light of the recent section renaming does anyone think it would be worth splitting of the Chemistry (and possibly pharmacoligical) bits into an article on MDMA leaving this article to deal with the recreational effects and legal issues? - Alex

Yes, I also feel this article would be more properly titled MDMA (as it is in most medical literature), and to have a disambiguation page of ecstasy point here. It's not like ecstasy is a plant like cannabis. - Chris Marcellino

Actually, they really do need to be separate. Ecstacy and MDMA aren't necessarily the same thing. In the UK MDMA certainly doesn't refer to Ecstacy pills; it refers to pure, crystalline MDMA (which is generally snorted). E is considered a separate drug which happens to contain an amount of MDMA, generally with other active chems - in fact, Ecstacy need not have any MDMA in it at all.

 * And you think the powder you're buying is pure just because its a powder?

This particular article should be titled Methylene deoxymethamphetamine, because it's about MDMA - not street E. Street E should be given Ecstasy(drug) as ts article. Rarr 22:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

 * No it shouldn't. Ecstasy is the street name of MDMA.

Is it a hallucinogen or not?
I've noticed a few back-and-forth edits over whether pure MDMA is a hallucinogen or not, and I don't think this bodes well for the veracity of the article. Can someone get hard, verified, backed up with citations information on this? - Korpios 17:50, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * As a long time user I can tell you MDMA in its pure form is NOT a hallucinogen. MDA and MDM both have visual aspects to them, visual blurring, motion trails, eye twitching, MDMA does not. none of the three has full on visuals like you would expect from something like LSD. Alkivar 06:33, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't think the issue to be debated with MDMA is whether or not it causes visual hallucinations. Although visual hallucinations are the most frequently discussed, keep in mind that there are other senses that can be distorted. Aural hallucinations are not uncommon and hallucinations of taste, though rare, do exist.

 * If distortions of taste and hearing are considered hallucinations, then I don't see why a distortion of touch should be excluded. On that basis I would argue that MDMA falls under the category of 'tactile hallucinogen'. It all boils down to a subjective definition of the term 'hallucinogen'.

 * But is an enhancement necessarily a distortion? As you say above, it depends on what one means by hallucinate.  I agree with the others that MDMA is not a hallucinogen.  A hallucination is defined as "a perception of objects with no reality" and I don't think anyone would argue that MDMA can, by itself, cause true hallucinations.

 * The most common classification is "entactogen". However as far as I know MDMA is the only drug to be classified as such, making the usefulness of the term somewhat dubious. "Hallucinogen" is a clumsy and inaccurate term that unfortunately is widespread. The only recreational drugs that can be meaningfully classified as hallucinogens are the anticholinergic delerients like Datura, belladonna, etc. Bk0 05:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Speaking from experience I can tell you it's possible to hallucinate at high doses (non-lethal overdoses.) Hallucinations are not a primary effect though.

Saftey advice?
I'm minded to remove this again. Apart from some objections to the advice I think its best to point people at the relevant drug information or even advocacy based sites rather than the fluctuating medium of Wikipedia. Anyone got any good reasons why it should stay? - Alex 26 Jul 2003

 * The information on the effects of the drug are relevant for inclusion in an encyclopedia. While the framing may be inappropriate or the information might should be subsumed elsewhere in the article, that information must remain in the article. Disregarding the fact that well-formed articles are rather stable, what does the "fluctuating medium" of Wikipedia have to do with it? This is no reason why this information should be removed from the article, any more than information in other subjects of scientific study should be removed. - Centrx 01:31, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I feel the "safety" information should be included, although it should be rephrased more neutrally in terms of potential effects, e.g., what might occur if certain steps are (or are not) taken when using the drug according to some. It should not read as a "How-To" guide. - Korpios 05:02, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Preparation
Preparation is something that should absolutely be discussed. Especially PROPER methods for binding(pill pressing) using non offensive agents. Not enough people know how to cleanly deal with mdma which is why it's often sold at lesser quality with unknown cuts/bindings. - Gnonymous

I'm not sure if information regarding preparation, usually from Safrole, is allowed or appropriate. - Anonymous

 * Definitely both allowed and appropriate. prat 23:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Allowable but worth it? If you want to maybe as a seperate article, although I suspect linking to existing sites would be a better course of action. See PHIKAL for proper synthesis instructions. Alex

Re: RTI
should this even be here at all with such specificity and unconfirmedness

There is no doubt who the supplier was. Only their alleged mistake is unconfirmed.
 * I meant the entire section. I don't think a narrative is appropriate. These aren't news stories, rather facts. If this information would not be appropriate here (disregarding accuracy) twenty years in the future, then it should not be here at all. - Centrx 20:02, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Intro risk section
The order should be Cacycle 12:10, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Real overdoses (direct effect of the compound, therefore first)
 * Dehydration (common indirect effect)
 * Water intoxication (this is rather a less common curiosity)

 * Water Intoxication is the #1 cause of death related to Ecstacy in the USA (other than taking a fatal chemical that isnt MDMA). Every single reported case of death by OD in the USA has been from it. Do the research, I have. Alkivar 17:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * See also Leah_Betts and Anna_Wood both of which were reported as "overdoses" but were in fact Water intoxication/Hyponatremia Alkivar 01:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * while i'm at it... got any cases that link to conclusive overdose of 100% pure MDMA? I called the FDA and even they can't point to a specific case that was caused by pure MDMA, and not a combination of other drugs. Alkivar 04:21, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * There is a scientific paper, Tissue concentrations of MDMA and its metabolite MDA in three fatal cases of overdose (Forensic Sci Int. 2003 Aug 12;135(2):110-4) which discusses 25 fatalities relating to MDMA in Spain. Three of these were studied in-depth, and in a toxicity screen one of the three was free of all other screened drugs of abuse including alcohol (the other two studied also showed signs of benzodiazepine use). So there is a possibility of a relatively 'pure' fatal overdose. However, you are right to say that usually an ecstasy overdose is really a 'polydrug' overdose.

 * Also, you are right to say that water intoxication is the #1 cause of problems. The same paper I mention says water intoxication / hyponatremia may be compounded by profuse drug-induced diaphoresis (sweat is very rich in sodium) and MDMA inhibition of vasopressin (preventing kidneys from flushing out excess water). Hence, hyponatremia is a real risk even if over-dosers don't drink a huge amount of water; it's not just a "curiosity." -- FirstPrinciples 07:46, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Alkivar: Sorry, I haven't studied the cases like you did. Maybe you could add some more details and numbers into a new 'side effects' or 'fatalities' section of the main article? Maybe we should replace the misleading term water intoxification by something like electrolyte dysregulation. Cacycle 15:08, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I happen to like the phrase "water intoxification" its a laymans terminology and it does get the point across clearly. If you were to walk up to a random person and use "water intoxification" and "electrolyte disregulation" people would have somewhat of a clue with the first and minimal with the other. besides for a true medical term there is an entry at hyponatremia. Alkivar 01:14, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * With misleading I just meant that you can get a "water intoxification" even without drinking excess water (although I haven't checked that). The term could give users a false feeling of security. Maybe writing about "salt imbalance" instead?

 * that might be a "more betterer" topic name ;).  On another note i think this page should be moved to MDMA and the Ecstasy (drug) page be used more as a list of substances sold as "ecstasy" including DXM/PMA/MDA/MDM/MDMA/etc. and a way to tell them apart. Alkivar 23:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * That's fine with me. Would you like to make the changes discussed above?

Supply
It might be worth noting Israel's a big player in the supply. "According to a report issued in 2003 by the U.S. State Department, Israel is at the center of international trafficking in Ecstasy...the most commonly heard estimate is that Israeli criminals control no less than 75 percent of the Ecstasy market in the U.S." (Ha'aretz) 142.177.120.204 18:03, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Their numbers/estimates are VERY wrong. If Israeli criminals controlled 75 percent of the market I would have encountered at least one in the 12 years i've been going to/promoting/throwing raves. Speaking from first hand knowledge the majority of the supply comes from Europe (mostly from the netherlands, germany, and spain) and passes thru canada before reaching the street in the USA. For a while pills were coming via FedEx! which inevitably led to a major bust. As I recall close to 3 million tabs were caught in just one bust in Boston in 2001, point of origin was The Netherlands, as a result prices of E in New England jumped up to almost double. If one bust could double the price overnight then its obviously more than just a 25% share of the market especially considering this is just in one region. Alkivar 18:37, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

--- Would anyone oppose or agree if I move the page to MDMA?--Sonjaaa 01:09, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * oppose moving it to MDMA. move to Methylene Dioxymethamphetamine (did i spell that right heh). Point the MDMA redirect to the full name. then turn the Ecstasy (drug) into an article on whats sold as "ecstacy" on the street. I havent had the time to request the move. Alkivar 01:20, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This makes sense. Let's start moving drugs to their chemical names and linking street names and chemical abbreviations to them. Any objection? RadicalHarmony 22:46, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No objections here. It seems silly that MDMA redirects to its street name. Rarr 00:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits
I had made a few edits to the MDMA article which have been reverted.

The reverter (Cacycle) claims that the edits were either factually wrong or annoying. I agree that element links are annoying, and I didn't add any (at least not intentionally).

It's clear that Cacycle has a vast understanding of psychoactive substances - much greater than my own.

However, I feel that the article in its current form has some misleading claims and fairly serious omissions. As far as I know, everything I added was factually correct. I'm particularly suprised at the deletion of the refrence to powder MDMA (or "molly"). Why should the article not contain a refrence to this?

I also take issue with the fact that the refrence to the Johns Hopkins study doesn't mention its retraction until the third paragraph. Also, the actual pharmacokinetics of MDMA are not very clearly explained, and from what I understand, the release of additional Serotonin is a very small and perhaps insignificant part of MDMA's psychoactive effect.

I'd like clarification on which parts of these edits were "factually incorrect."

 * Hi RadicalHarmony,

 * 1) MDMA does act by being taken up into the cell and blocking / reversing vesicular transporters. MDMA is not changed in this process. It is degraded, but the metabolites are not active.
 * 2) For an encyclopedic article it is not that important how you and your friends from a certain small region of the world call powdered MDMA (BTW, the "east coast" of which country?). Please also cite your references for the prevalence, the purity, or the reliability of powdered MDMA - your personal experiences might not be valid in general.
 * 3) You have obviously confused the study at the University of Manchester (that shows that MDMA can be beneficial in L-DOPA treated Parkinson's Disease patients) with the retracted study at John Hopkins' by Ricaurte.
 * 4) Sorry for the "annoying" part, this change was actually made by Ugen64 shortly before you edited the article.
 * The changes made by 68.174.248.159 were either wrong (mechanism of action), redundant (MAPS), or without sources (and without previous reading of this talk page) (risks section).
 * Cacycle 20:54, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm - thank you so much for this response. I'm really learning to love WikiPedia.

OK, so, on the first three points:

1) So shouldn't this mechanism of action be mentioned rather than simply stating that it causes a dump of Serotonin? To read this article as is could lead readers to presume that a dose of Serotonin (5-HT) would be the same as a dose of MDMA, as it depicts the primary mechanism as being a flood of Serotonin without mention of the actual chemical reaction and the subsequent effects on other neuro-transmitters.

2) It's quite presumptuous of you to assume that the word "Molly" is a slang among my "friends" in a small part of the world. In my research into drugs and drug culture, I have come across "Molly" many times, and judging by the immense ammount of research you seem to have done, I'm sure you have too.  In fact, Molly seems to be, at least as far as I can  tell from reading the relevant media and talking to activists around the country, at least as popular a name for MDMA as "ecstasy."

It should also be noted that some kind of binding agent is always neccesary in order to "press" MDMA into a pill form, so that powder MDMA has a higher potential purity level than in pill form. Along with this information it should also be noted that power MDMA is also more easily adulterable at lower levels of the distribution chain and is thus very often adulterated, and is more often adulterated with street drugs than "ecstasy" pills. DanceSafe and EcstasyData have verified this obvious conclusion for years.

3) You are just plain correct here. I read it too fast.  Sorry about that.

Interestingly, the IP Address you mention is mine, but those changes were not made from my account. It must have been one of my housemates. We've all discovered WikiPedia at the same time. :)

I'll figure out who it is and urge them to join this discussion.

RadicalHarmony 22:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A user named Alkivar, without participating in this discussion, has re-applied many of the edits (which I originally wrote) that Cacycle felt were in error. I'm not sure what to do at this point - I don't mind if they are suspended until we resolve this. I hope Alkivar will make his or her case here on the discussion board.

One thing that Alkivar didn't re-edit was the mention of powder MDMA ("molly"). I feel this is a crucial part of an encyclopedia article covering MDMA use. In any case, I hope that Cacycle, Alkivar, myself, and all other interested WikiPedians can quickly resolve this situation and finalize these edits one way or another. RadicalHarmony 01:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi Radical et al. I do think it's important to mention that MDMA is found in pure powder form, though I've never heard the term 'molly' before (I live on the west coast of the US). A quick search of Erowid does turn up a 4 year old reference to the term as slang for molecule in powder form. Whether the word molly is cited or not I don't think is as important in mentioning that MDMA does exist in powder form. Ekai 03:20, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry about that, I reverted to the wrong version. I had meant to correct some of your changes and leave the rest in my revert, OOPS ;) as for the LDOPA trial in the UK, they've since said that they have not been able to reproduce their results, which leads them to question its validity.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 03:37, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Alkivar: The mechanism of action was definitely wrong, see above - this was the main reason for disputing. The "molly" parts could have been retained (for goods sake) - but I didn't have the time to re-edit them in after your brutal revert :-) Do you have a link to the problems to reproduce the Parkinson study? Cacycle 09:32, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll track down the link for you, I read it in a printed journal.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 17:55, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be useful to move all chemisty / pharmacology out of the first paragraph and instead create a section called Mechanism of Action or something. Cacycle: Can we at least agree that MDMA works by entering a Serotonin transporter and that subsequently, either via normal Serotonin delivery means or by some kind of "revolving door" effect, the synapse is flooded with Serotonin?

Also, I must insist that some mention of Powder MDMA, whether or not it mentions the word "Molly," be added.

Finally, I have read that 5-HTP might prevent some cases of dopamine-related neurotoxicity by spurring the creation of more Serotonin so that serotonin transporters aren't left vacant. Obviously this doesn't completely preclude the possibility of dopamine toxicty, as a sufficient dose of a SSRI would, but perhaps it's still worth mentioning? I'm not aware of any labratory research of the subject.

Overall, I just don't feel the mechanism of action (and the implications of the conditions of the brain) are very well laid out in a way that most readers will clearly understand at present. Thoughts?

RadicalHarmony 15:05, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Overdose deaths
I have removed the following edit: This would belong to the Effects or risks section. But even then this simple sentences does not make sense. We need more information: How and where were the cases counted? What was causing the deaths? Was it enough to have ecstasy in the blood or in the pocket? Did they count suicides, accidents, and deaths resulting from other risky behaviour? In what relation stands this number to the number of uses and how would that relate to other commonly accepted risks? And so on. Unfortunately I don't have that textbook so that I cannot check that chapter and its primary sources. Cacycle 15:06, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * leading to 2600 overdose deaths between 1994 and 1998 (Deaths source: Kaplan & Sadock, A Comprehensive Textbook on Psychiatry, 8th edition, 2005 p.1199).

On rereading, it appears I have picked the wrong Club Drug page for this stat. The actual quote at the end of the MDMA section is: "Of the Club Drugs, methamphetamine is the substance that accounts for the largest share of Drug Abuse Warning Netwrok (DAWN) emergency department mentions and the highest number of deaths (approximately 2600) in the 5 years from 1994 to 1998. MDMA use generated more national concern and media coverage during 1994 to 1998 because young people were disproportionately represented in emergency department visits involving Club Drugs." The chapter ends with 30 references to studies and medical papers, but that's rather much a moot point since a simple search on google will turn up death stats in Britain for MDMA and coroborate the methamphetamine death stats in that period exactly as quoted anyway (along with lots of glowing reviews of altered consciousness by people with no experience or training in determining their long-term personality, memory, creativity or cognitive changes objectively) 24.42.235.224 23:47, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The US FDA is only able to conclusively link 9 fatalities to MDMA in the US since 1989 (according to my phone call). Thats not to say that there are not other fatalities from MDMA, but that the results were inconclusive as to whether it was other drugs or alcohol etc... that were responsible.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 02:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I also find it interesting that we point out within the first two paragraphs that there have been "several fatal overdoses of MDMA" but if one checks the Aspirin entry there's no mention of the hundreds of annual overdose deaths there... or caffeine. We are a weird people. ;) Perhaps we should go adding that info in?
 * Certainly a little statement about relative harm in perspective would add something. -SV|t|add 17:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Updates
I've made some large revisions regarding the mechanism of neurotoxicity. It's now pretty well accepted that dopamine is not the causal agent of MDMA-induced neurotoxicity and as such, I've removed it from the page. If anyone wants to add a note about dopamine->H2O2 oxidation as a now-somewhat-defunct idea, I think that would be good. Dopamine's currently-accepted role is in inducing the hyperpyrexia that potentiates (but is not required for) neurotoxicity. --Matro 02:03, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

MDMA is a dangerous drug
I don't know why people are reverting me in this article...if it's not dangerous why than is it illegal in the United States?--198 02:27, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * (Can someone really be that naive?)

 * That's great logic. Absolutely stunning. By that reasoning, alcohol and tobacco damn well ought to be illegal too. So should bungee jumping, skydiving, driving a car, thunderstorms, and hurricanes. It's illegal for casual use. So are a lot of other drugs; in fact, all prescribed drugs are illegal to take without a prescription. It's illegal to take oxycodone without a prescription. It's illegal to take methadone without a prescription. Neither of these is a dangerous drug if used properly. Note also that the FDA currently says MDMA is safer than Vioxx, Celebrex, or Bextra. (You can be prescribed MDMA under certain circumstances. You can't be prescribed any of the COX-2 inhibitors any more because of serious safety concerns.)
 * This is not true. You cannot be prescribed MDMA unless you receive it as part of the administration of an approved clinical trial, and these are extremely rare and tightly controlled.  Vioxx is unquestionably less controlled than Ecstasy - tests are still being conducted.  I actually think that the respondent's logic is slightly off as s/he falsly is assuming that the OP's comment implies that s/he believes that legal drugs must not be dangerous because drugs made illegal are dangerous.  Of course, the former cannot be derived from the latter.  In defence of the OP, I think that there exist very valid reasons why improper use of MDMA by itself may be dangerous, even though its accute effects do not include physical debilitation or death.  Nobody is saying that the same warning does not apply (perhaps even stronger) to alcohol, but what I am saying here is that it does apply to Ecstasy.  MDMA's damaging effects on serotonin neurons in the brain at high doses have been well documented in a variety of animal species, and there are really no reasons to believe that these results cannot be extrapolated to humans. Adrade 20:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't take E, I don't particularly encourage anyone to take E, but I sure as hell don't try to hide it when I make blantantly POV edits to articles.—chris.lawson (talk) 02:35, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Frequently when things are made illegal, it has a lot to do with money.Sandpiper 02:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Think about it. Would certain large companies prefer that you pay a one-time $10 fee for a single pill, or that you spend the next forty years paying for their antianxiety medications?

 * If MDMA were patentable it would be legal.
 * Merck held the original patent. Adrade 20:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Be sure to keep in mind that before MDMA was permanently scheduled as Schedule I, there were several appeals to reschedule the drug to Schedule III. There was even a court case involving the improper scheduling of the drug.  The judge ruled for the head of the DEA to review and reschedule MDMA, but he refused, and MDMA remained a Schedule I drug.  --Damae 09:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Right-hand Table

 * I filled in parts of the right-hand table with information from the article. I don't know why no one else bothered to; if there was a reason, please revert or correct the table. Oh, yeah, what is that table called? 05:56, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I am removing neuroleptic malignant syndrome from the list of potential side-effects. There is no study of which I am aware that links MDMA to the development of this disorder.  Any evidence I've seen so far has been from case-studies or anecdotal reports.  If someone believes it should be included, would you please include a reference? --Adrade 09:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

International regulation
See http://www.maps.org/dea-mdma/pdf/0165.PDF for the WHO report recommending Schedule I status. Remember me 19:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is correct - the hyperpyrexia associated with excessive MDMA ingestion is the result of a generalised 'serotonin syndrome' - the result of excess levels of serotonin in (probably) both central and peripheral tissue.

"Safety "
I think the "Safety" section is a mix of different things -- it has "Adverse effects", "Risks associated with illegal drugs (e.g. questionable purity)", "Unusual effects that have been associated with MDMA use" and some long-term and short-term effects.

Whether the term "Safety" is appropriate is another question--it is usually used in the context of prescription medications/over-the-counter meds. MDMA isn't like some other illegal drugs... but it isn't what I'd describe as "safe" Nephron

I have problems with things throughout this whole article
As this is a highly controlled drug which is illegal in the United States, unbiased and reputable sources on the subject are hard to find. As this is not a well known subject, we should only trust sources such as science journals and scholarly articles. I have problems with some of our sources.... I think that the information here is a little biased in favor of the drug... 24.13.78.4 04:17, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Biased in favour of the drug? It's more a matter of other sources not getting the right information and making MDMA out to be more dangerous than it is. Every well-researched resource done by educated people about MDMA shows that it isn't dangerous - because it isn't dangerous.
 * Saying MDMA isn't dangerous is pretty stupid. Sure, when taken responsibly by educated users there might be next no adverse effects, but this doesn't mean it's not a dangerous drug. There's a risk involved when taking any stimulant, although it may be slight, it should not be ignored or denied. Speaking of 'ecstasy' rather than pure MDMA there's an even bigger risk as you don't know what's in the pill unless you test it (which few people do), it could have all kinds of adulterants in it and you wouldn't know. People look at this website for concise information, so please be careful about what you say.
 * Government drug websites and "drug facts" sources claim crap like MDMA (methylenedioxymethamphetamine) being similar to methamphetamine (crystal/ice) in both its chemistry and effects - it's complete rubbish.

You are mistaken. The fact that mdma can come with adulterants, has little connection to how dangerous actual mdma is. Which it isnt. Illegal drugs are given to us by criminals, not the goverment, hence there not as pure.

 * I did mention I was talking about ecstasy (the pills sold on the street by drug dealers) rather than pure mdma when I spoke of adulterants. Anyway, are you really trying to tell me that a drug that highly increases body temperature is not dangerous? There's a reason most mdma related deaths are down to severe dehydration (overheating) or overhydration (often as a result of panicking about overheating or trying to get rid of the drymouth side effect.) Sure, you could argue that those deaths might not have occured if the user had sipped water sensibly or drank something that increased sodium levels, but in most cases they wouldn't have happened without the drug either. Any drug that increases heart rate, body temperature or acts on the CNS is dangerous to an extent. In fact, a simple increase in energy is a potentially dangerous effect which could lead to overexertion (dancing all night, the oh so popular tale ring a bell?) In regards to lethal doses (LD50 = 100-300mg/kg) you're right, mdma is relatively safe, however, high doses of mdma can make people almost completely lose their inhibitions (worse than alcohol), become unresponsive and hallucinate. These effects can also play a part in irresponsible actions taken by users. Please note that I'm not biased against the drug, I simply want to point out potentially dangerous effects that could arise from irresponsible ecstasy use.

The body temperature thing is a minor problem. Mdma is a stimulant, meaning it speeds up your cns, but that doesnt mean your body doesnt dehydrate if you overwork. And your right, drinking responsibly, and sodium level etc makes ecstacy a safe drug. Did you know that ecstasy is illegal because ppl do it for fun, or other recreational reasons. Not because you can die from it, i believe only 7-8 deaths can be connected to ecstasy. Prescription medicine is also dangerous, even aspirin causes more deaths and overdoses than ecstasy. But at least they come from a doctor, and with specific guidelines.. ie no more than 2 a day, etc. Otherwise you can overdose and die! Your argument connects dangers of ecstasy by pointing out the mistakes of the inexperienced. Very ridicuous logic.

 * Body temerature with MDMA is directly related to toxicity. This is not related to hydration.  Please see my comment and citation in the first section of this discussion.  Adrade 20:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't call it ridiculous logic. I was replying to the point of somebody saying it isn't dangerous, when it is. Of course it wouldn't cause half as many problems if it came in a box with clear instructions, but that wasn't the point being discussed.

Another Article Link Removed
I brought this up in the link for Talk:Nicotine and mention it hear again. I am asking why a link to an article I posted has been removed. The link is. Is there a general bias or issue of censoring information that could show positive information about these compounds? Please clarify, see my talk page if you need to contact me. Pogue 11:42, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Recipe
Clawson (talk · contribs) removed a recipe for ecstasy inserted by an anon. I'm not sure if the "cookbook" argument should be used here. With similar recipes circulating online, it may be reasonable to include at least basic elements of synthesis here. Safrol is hard to obtain at any rate, with government restrictions getting tighter. JFW | T@lk  20:39, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I removed it because it's not a synthesis; it's a recipe. If we're going to put a proper chemical synthesis in the article, fine, but we're absolutely NOT going to tell people how to cook their own E at home. That's foolish.—chris.lawson (talk) 20:45, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

You're right. JFW | T@lk  21:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Chirality
This article says that MDMA has a chiral centre. Is the stereochemistry important? If it is, what difference does it make? Mission9801 13:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

OBJECTION
your definition of this topic is extremely subjective, seems like example of mdma advocation. how can you say for example such thing that far most dangerous in the ecstasy pill are the "street additives"?! That's an urban drug myth beginning by "set & setting plays the main role" going through "no no no, you can't wait any erection, only highest happiness." resp. "well and NEVER FORGET to drink a lot of water!" (it can probably save your neurons from frying) and ending by emphasising "your body will survive with 99,99% probability". Ecstasy is a drug with extremely dangerous impact on your mind (yes physically pretty safe). After trying it (which sounds along with your article as the most is-worth-thing-on-this-planet) you're changed for months - but not avare of majority of these changes until you stop using it. You experience extreme non-natural high, but only after months of non-taking it you can see what was really done to you. You should emphasize here BOLD not some diffuse mind-danger or argue against obscure "what comes up must go down" theory, but you have to be pretty specific about things like "ecstasy pills are causing (along with the artificial extreme and broad-range high), artificial and broad-range states of extreme mind suffering, as reported by many ex-abusers. And there's the highest risk of permanent brain damage in psychoactive drugs at all."

 * You're implying change is bad.

 * Ex-abusers are never a reliable source. I don't take advice on alcohol of ex-alcohol addicts.

 * Please see Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Bk0 22:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I've read it, thanks for info. Maybe even sorry for accusing author of some intention (he probably even read some book about ecstasy). But as before I wait now on answer on facts I've stated. If I won't get the answer, I'll not post here anymore, but this article stays significantly incomplete, and minimum you can do is put here link on e.g. http://ecstasy-effects.com, because there are information in practice quite different from what is stated here.

 * No offense, but any site about a drug that's sponsored by a drug rehab center and prominently advertises other drug rehab centers on its front page has to have its credibility immediately called into question. They make money by convincing people they have a problem. It's in their best financial interest to make the various commonly abused drugs sound much worse than they are, because it scares people into wanting to get off them, usually in rehab. (Not that I'm advocating substance abuse; just the opposite. But I can certainly see how it would be beneficial for a drug rehab center to exaggerate the effects of various substances. Fear is a powerful motivator for some people.)

 * Those behind rehab centers are typically extremely misinformed or just outright liars. They have a vested interest in scaring people into thinking they need rehab.

 * The information provided in this article, like our article on cannabis, is largely derived from reliable scientific sources with no financial motivation one way or another. I see no reason why anyone should automatically assume that because it's possible to obtain a drug on the street, that drug is any more dangerous or any more likely to be abused than a legally obtained drug, and that's the logic I keep seeing from folks on your side of the argument ("your side" being "E is dangerous and this article is too pro-E"). Pretty sure I already had this discussion up the page a few paragraphs, about eight months back. Yep, up there in section 10, "MDMA is a dangerous drug." Have a look at that, please.--chris.lawson 11:39, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

well, you are either dull or non-objective. can't you see that specialized mdma rehab center saying "don't take mdma it will harm you" is going against themselves?! Along with your logic they should say "it's not that bad" (exactly what you're saying) and then have profit from tons of people who believed it's safe. I don't understand why should specialized mdma drug rehab center be less competent to state something about ecstasy than you are (and eventually I am). Can you explain it to me? If not, you as an objective editor of wikipedia 'ecstasy' topic are due to state this as opinion from practice too: "Positive ecstasy effects are of highly addictive nature. Negative ones, often long-lasting, far outweigh the few short term pleasures and may come as quickly as the first dose and increase with continued usage." Cannabis is nothing compared to ecstasy and you probably know it, so don't compare please. And, consider reviewing your opinion that few doubful researches can say more that long-term practice.

 * If they did that then people who are happily using it would never visit the center. On the other hand if you lie and scare people some, who actually have no problem, will come visit the center because they've been convinced that use is abuse and the drug is extremely dangerous.  Because MDMA isn't a particularly harmful drug they'd never have any customers if they didn't lie.

RfC
Slightly off topic, but still relevant i feel was an anti-drugs campaign in the UK a few years ago. The government had a big poster campaign with unhappy looking people and a big list of dangers printed along the bottom. Having nothing better to do while waiting for a train, I stared at it for a while and thought about those dangers. Basically, they were all dangers associated with the use of unregulated and uncontrolled (and therefore contaminated) drugs, or of legal sanctions applied supposedly to protect people. The least damaging thing on the list was the actual effect of the drugs. The main risks were all consequences of the governments own policy. What did you want a comment on the page about? Sandpiper 03:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

More advice
As for the saftey advice, I would add that it would be best to be around people who are not attracted to you. So if you do decide to take ecstacy, make sure your with your close friends who have zero sexual interest in you. If not, you might be in for a surprise. I think you all know what I mean. jenny_smith68
 * Rape is an extremely serious and widespread problem. Many mind altering drugs are used as "date rape drugs" (for lack of a better term) including alcohol, MDMA, cocaine, meth, GHB and just about any other drug that alters judgment or impairs the ability to physically resist unwanted sexual advances. The problem is sexism and objectification of women (rather than the innate properties of the substances themselves), the drugs are simply tools used by attackers. Be safe and try not to unthinkingly put yourself in vulnerable situations. --Bk0 (Talk) 03:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * This is a bit extreme. Of course men buy women drinks to loosen them up, but it only becomes rape if there is no consent - the women has to be either unconscious or resisting.  If she is actively involved, then it is clear consent, drugs notwithstanding.

 * I definitely agree with you, jenny_smith68. Simply the fact that Ecstasy has been used for marriage counseling is reason enough to stay away from those you're even mildly attracted to. I also think that some of the more popular date rape drugs would be Dissociatives, which is why I dont quite agree with you when you say cocaine and meth, Bk0. I mean, I'm sure that everyone reacts differently and unpredictably to every drug but I've never heard of Coke or Meth being involved with date rape, simply because it's too much of a costly hassle to get it when one could just get Ecstasy or a Dissociative much much easier. Cheers. --Xer0X 21:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've not once read anything to suggest that ecstasy has been used as a date rape drug (GHB or 'Liquid Ecstasy' as it's often known is not ecstasy.) Of course I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I find it highly unlikely that one would use ecstasy as the date rape drug of choice. Personally, my sex drive goes in the opposite direction; I simply don't feel horny on ecstasy, ever.

 * I'm not aware of any verified cases where GHB was used anyway. Mostly seems to be government propaganda and scaremongering.

PTSD
I'm a graduate student in Neuroscience, and I've been studying MDMA for some time now. I'm interested in people's thoughts as to the pros/cons of using MDMA to aid in the treatment of PTSD. It seems like there are some good arguments for either side.

 * I'm a starting freshman in Neuroscience, and I started studying MDMA last year after it was used to cure my own PTSD. My personal feelings on the matter: while it is NOT the drug for everyone, a careful screening process ideally could ensure that there would be a minimum of usage among people who, to put it bluntly, can't handle a trip.  For those of us that it can work for, it's just about a miracle cure.  If the patient is properly screened and the psychotherapist in question is an experienced, talented, and trusthworthy guide, the physical and mental sisks should be minimal.  Fully inform each patient as to the potential risks and let them decide for themselves if they wish to risk them in order to possibly be cured of PTSD.  In my case, I was desperate enough to try just about anything, consequences be damned.  I'd like to think I'm very fortunate that I had a friend who was able to get ahold of pure MDMA and guide me properly, in sharp contrast to however many million people who don't have such resources and are, quite simply, trapped in hell.

Retracted MDMA Findings? (The MDMA Neurotoxicity Controversy)
Ricuarte Science Retraction (Erowid)

The article on Ecstasy mentions nothing about how the findings of the tests involving MDMA neurotoxicity and primates were retracted after a major flaw in experimentation occurred. It seems that the blame has fallen on the chemical company, who apparently sent bottles labeled MDMA that were actually Methamphetamine. It says, in the formal retraction, that retesting was done (assuming that the results would be the same), but there were no findings of neurotoxicity when true MDMA was used. Perhaps a "Neurotoxicity Controversy" section should be included, because there is indeed major debate as to whether MDMA is truly detrimental to human health. --Damae 09:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Given the differences in active doses between methamphetamine and MDMA, and that the researchers were giving what would be large doses of MDMA, it is hardly surprising some of the test subjects died and the others suffered serious damage. Given Ricaurte's anti-drug bias all his research, like that of Gabriel Nahas, is to be distrusted.

"yaotou" meaning?
I'm curious about where the nickname "yaotou" comes from. It's Mandarin for "to shake one's head" (摇头), but it could also mean something like "drug-head" (or a variety of unrelated things). —alxndr (t)

im not sure, but i would assume from the way people move on e. at raves specfically, moving in time to the music. the music and the dancing at raves is very repetitive, and ecstasy, being the most common rave drug, would be associated with that. just looked it up for a second, and it said it came from chinese raves, so it makes sense to me. --Tan.the.man

definition in Chinese --132.162.244.18 03:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Paracetamol
Paracetamol can easily lead to overdoeses, but I find that sentence misleading. Quoting the Paracetamol page: Paracetamol single doses above 10 grams or chronic doses over 5 grams per day... can cause significant injury to the liver., Some individuals are more susceptible to hepatotoxicity, with toxic doses as low as 4 g/day. 4 or 5 pills, as stated in the article ammounts to 2g, ie half a toxic dose in the most sensitive individuals, a typical user needs to take 20 pills in order to experience toxicity and about twice that for a resonable chance of lethality.

The current sentence implies that it is relativly easy to OD on paracetamol thinking it is ecstacy when it is obviously not the case. I am also assuming that the type of person most likely to be duped into buying fake E, is also unlikely to be carrying more that two or three pills on a given night, and even if he has more it is unlikely he will keep on taking them after it becomes apparent he has been duped. --BadSeed 07:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It is true that combining paracetamol with alcohol can be very dangerous.

Specific numbers SHOULD be included
"This effect has been experimentally verified in the brains of rats, where the serotonin terminals of animals who are given extremely high doses of MDMA over a prolonged period of time (usually one to two orders of magnitude greater than a typical human dose) become withered and useless."

 * Thess experiments are typically done with extreme doses. The neurons regenerate though.

I found specifically this quote which is ambiguous in the amount that they mean. The "extremely high doses" should be given a number and the "prolonged period of time" should be given a length of time. As it stand I think these go againt NPOV, and leave the reader wondering (or perhaps worsly, not wondering) how long, and at what dose.

I think this goes for many other qualitative quantities given on this page. For example, almost everywhere you see the word dose, there should be a range, or some approximate amount given for people to measure "high" or "great" or "large" by. Fresheneesz 07:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Absolutely agree. All drug articles need dosage measures considering the impact of quantity on effect.  Brilliant article, by the way.  Try not to cave into the "legality is morality" brigade.  Panlane --82.38.227.22 21:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think this violates npov, but numbers would certainly be more informative and clearer thatn just saying "extremely high doses" and etc.  --Heah talk 22:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Description of MDMA as Ecstasy

 * "MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine), most commonly known today by the street name ecstasy,"

Unless drug terminology is significantly different in the USA, this would be in arror as in the UK ecstacy and MDMA are distinctly different. "Ecstacy" describes pills which may contain MDMA (granted the majority of Ecstacy tablets do) however MDMA is not an essential ingredient - Ecstacy almost always contains a mixture of drugs, most normally including Amphetamines and Ketamine. In addition, MDMA is available in forms other than tablets, such as MDMA powder and MDMA crystal, which are generally preferred since then users have more precise control over how much they're taking, something you can't be sure of with a pill. 19:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Pill testing shows that ecstasy tablets mostly contain MDMA. With the powder and crystal (uncrushed powder) you have no more idea of the purity than with tablets.  You can potentially take incremental doses to find a dose you're happy with, but then you could just crush tablets and do the same.  And the next batch could have a different purity level.  It is just a myth that MDMA powder is pure.

 * I don't see what the problem is. Ecstasy wasn't gained from the thought of 'psychedelic pill,' but rather 'MDMA pill.' Just because most illicit tablets do not contain pure MDMA, if any MDMA, that does not mean that Ecstasy is a bad descriptor for a more-than-common name given to MDMA. Illicit tablets often do contain a mixture of other substance - this is not a name issue, this is a 'cut' issue. To address your comment on MDMA being available in other forms - of course it is available in powderized form. But when it is sold, is it being sold by the illicit drug dealer as "Methylenedioxymethamphetamine," or "pure ecstasy, DUDE!" By the way, MDMA powder and MDMA crystal are the same thing - the powder is crushed crystalline MDMA. The problem you bring up is a non-issue.--Ddhix 2002 22:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Ddhix 2002 becuase, in the UK, where I stay, in my Personal and Social Education classroom, the teacher clearly stated that MDMA and ectsacy and Methylenedioxymethamphetamine are the exact same thing. Kilo-Lima Vous pouvez parler 18:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I have to disagree. I agree that when MDMA was legal, Ecstasy and MDMA were the same thing, the pills would contain 100% MDMA of a dosis of around 180mg per pills. But now there are so many adultrants that any EDUCATED person knows that Ecstasy and MDMA aren't the same thing. People thinking Ecstasy and MDMA is one of the main reasons kids will take the drug irresponsibly. a page clarifying all the other adultrants (DXM,2C-B,Ketamine,MDA,MDE,etc) will also educate people more on what they're taking. I suggest a /Ecstasy(Drug) article seperate from the MDMA one.

POV (minor)
"It would be these gigs (and "sound") at The Haçienda that would give birth to rave culture in which ecstasy is so widely associated" is POV. It's surely not possible to say that Madchester and the rave scene were the sole "parents" of rave? What about house music (US style), 60s raves, music festivals, the invention of the sampler and the TB303? "Predated" or "paralleled" (sp.?) might be better, I'll see what I can do. --kingboyk 01:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of brain scans associated with Ricaurte Parkinsonism research
These two scans are actually from an episode of the Oprah Show. The scans were provided by the attending physician of a young female 'ecstasy' user; one is of the girl in question, the other apparently came from the doctor's library of 'normal' scans. Although these scans may merit discussion on their own, they are NOT in any way related to Ricaurte's work or the Parkinsonism scandal. --Nathan/TheDEA.org
 * Thanks for the correct info. i'm honestly not sure that they should be here anyways.  --He:ah? 23:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The biggest problem is we cannot establish that the girl's brainscan does not show use of chemicals OTHER than MDMA, she may also have been a Crystal Meth/Cocaine user for all we know. Those two chemicals would also detrimentally affect a PET scan, as we cannot verify what she used, we certainly cannot baseline compare it, unless we also baseline compare it to a known cocaine user, a known meth user... etc. The damage seen is not necessarily MDMA correlative.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 02:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

3d molecular structure picture
Isn't that 3d picture wrong? There should be 2 hydrogens attached to the carbon on the left. The name's "METHYLENEdioxymethamphetamine", and carbon should form 4 bonds here, right? Is there a special circumstance I've never heard of? 72.40.101.236 04:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there probably *are* 2 hydrogens attached to the carbon. But because of the orientation of the molecule, one of the hydrogens is hidden behind the other. If this is the case, maybe the molecule should be rotated a little, but I'm not sure if it is that important. Aenar 14:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Ben 15:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC).
 * Excellent, thank you. Didn't think of a hidden atom. 72.40.101.236 01:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Man took 40,000 ecstasy pills in nine years
''Doctors from London University have revealed details of what they believe is the largest amount of ecstasy ever consumed by a single person. Consultants from the addiction centre at St George's Medical School, London, have published a case report of a British man estimated to have taken around 40,000 pills of MDMA, the active ingredient in ecstasy, over nine years. The heaviest previous lifetime intake on record is 2,000 pills....'' http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,,1746333,00.html

Amazing. I bet his come down lasts for years. --Dumbo1 16:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * He's dead.

 * He's not dead. He has some problems.

Sorry for amending an archive, but reading that just made me laugh my ass off.

LD50
Should this not be included somewhere throughout the article? or even on the side panel.

"The single-dose LD50 in humans can only be guessed at, but may be on the order of 10-20 mg/kg (oral.) One recent press report claims a ten year-old girl died after taking at least five 'ecstasy' tablets. Assuming the girl weighed about 40 kg (88 pounds) and the pills contained about 70 mg of MDMA each (and no other drugs), she died from a dose of roughly 9 mg/kg."

 * Have you got a source for that? If so please provide it. 9mg/kg does seem on the low side. Was it a toxic reaction to MDMA or were there other complicating factors. --Dumbo1 17:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Myriads of uncited references
I have just edited a couple of the sections. I particularly was troubled with the Supply_and_administration section. It is literally dotted with specific claims about adulterated MDMA tablets containing this and that chemical and there isn't one singular citation for any of it. I cannot see how this can remain as is. Either citations must be produced or it must go. __meco 20:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Methylenedioxymethamphetamine delisted from Good articles page
With the above mentioned discrepancy this article cannot be considered a good article. __meco 20:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

How Did you get this information?
First of all, if Methylenedioxymentamphetamine is illegal in the united states, how would you know so much about it and actually obtain a picture of it? Thats a little "fishy". I dont see how you could of gotten those pictures except on a google or something, which would be an innaccurate source. The only ligitament excuse i forsee is that police confiscated it and in an article about their quest to confiscate it they display that picture. But that scenario itself seems highly unprobable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.190.16.172 (talk • contribs).

 * Oh no. You caught us.

 * LOL! Seriously in the Uk the police and the media print pictures of drugs. The police have displays of drugs which they use to help people identify illegal drugs. On the information point, a lot of published research has been published. Just because something is illegal does not mean that there is no information about it. --Dumbo1 17:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Heroin-contaminated Ecstacy is merely a myth
One pill (EcstacyData Tablet 1139) has been reported, and appears to have been made specificly to test EcstacyData's reliability. Nobody in their right mind would take a pill that has had such a bad quality press. MasterOfPuppets LOOK THIS IS PATHETIC IF YOU DONT LIKE THE THOUGHT OF FREEDOM OF CHOICE YOU DO NOT BELONG IN AMERICA AND YOU CAN GET THE HELL OUT BECAUSE THIS NATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE TO MAKE DECISIONS AND WHAT YOU DO AND READ OR CONCERN YOURSELF WITH IS PERFECTLY FINE AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT HURT ANYONE BUT YOU IM SORRY WE HAVE A HIPCRITICAL FOUNDATION EVERYONE THEY SAY ITS A FREE COUNTRY BUT WE CANT DO SOMETHING LESS MOOD ALTERING THAN THE LEGAL THINGS LIKE ALCHOHOL BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN RAPED OF OUR FREEDOMS BY OUR THE LAWS THOUGHT UP BY SOMEONE WITH ENOUGH HATE IN THEIR HEART TO JUDGE WHETHER SOMEONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE IN THIS WORLD OR IN A CELL WHEN NO ONE IS PERFECT IF YOU WANT TO HURT YOURSELF AND SWALLOW A PILL THATS ON YOU BUT GETTING SENT TO PRISON SO YOU CAN BE RAPED BECAUSE OF A LAW SHOULD BE ILLEGAL WHEN YOU ARE DOING SOMEHTHING HARMLESS OTHERS THAT YOU ENJOY SO HONESTLY THINK ABOUT IT YOU WANT TO BANN A HARMLESS FREEDOM THEN YOU ARE BURNING OUR AMERICAN FLAG AND STOMPING AND SPITTING ON IT BECAUSE TAKING A FREEDOM FROM EVERYONE BECAUSE OF SOMETHING SOMEONE DOES AT THEIR HOME IF YOUR GONNA DO IT YOUR GONNA DO IT IF YOUR NOT YOUR NOT AND WHAT HAVE WE HAD HAPPEN TO MDMA CONSUMERS THAT WAS THEIR FAULT AND THAT WAS A CRIME OTHER THAN WHAT SHOULD NOT BE AND PLEASE DONT TELL ME ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE HIPPOCRITICAL TO YOUR RIGHTS

title: Talk:MDMA/Archive 1


text:
Early music

Early music generally comprises Medieval music (500–1400) and Renaissance music (1400–1600), but can also include Baroque music (1600–1750). Originating in Europe, early music is a broad musical era for the beginning of Western classical music.

Terminology
Interpretations of historical scope of "early music" vary. The original Academy of Ancient Music formed in 1726 defined "Ancient" music as works written by composers who lived before the end of the 16th century. Johannes Brahms and his contemporaries would have understood Early music to range from the High Renaissance and Baroque, while some scholars consider that Early music should include the music of ancient Greece or Rome before 500 AD (a period that is generally covered by the term Ancient music). Music critic Michael Kennedy excludes Baroque, defining Early music as "musical compositions from [the] earliest times up to and including music of [the] Renaissance period".

Musicologist Thomas Forrest Kelly considers that the essence of Early music is the revival of "forgotten" musical repertoire and that the term is intertwined with the rediscovery of old performance practice. According to the UK's National Centre for Early Music, the term "early music" refers to both a repertory (European music written between 1250 and 1750 embracing Medieval, Renaissance and the Baroque) – and a historically informed approach to the performance of that music.

Today, the understanding of "Early music" has come to include "any music for which a historically appropriate style of performance must be reconstructed on the basis of surviving scores, treatises, instruments and other contemporary evidence."

Revival

In the later 20th century there was a resurgence of interest in the performance of music from the Medieval and Renaissance eras, and a number of instrumental consorts and choral ensembles specialising in Early music repertoire were formed. Groups such as the Tallis Scholars, the Early Music Consort and the Taverner Consort and Players have been influential in bringing Early music to modern audiences through performances and popular recordings.

Performance practice
The revival of interest in Early music has given rise to a scholarly approach to the performance of music. Through academic musicological research of music treatises, urtext editions of musical scores and other historical evidence, performers attempt to be faithful to the performance style of the musical era in which a work was originally conceived. Additionally, there has been a rise in the use of original or reproduction period instruments as part of the performance of Early music, such as the revival of the harpsichord or the viol.

The practice of "historically informed performance" is nevertheless dependent on stylistic inference. According to Margaret Bent, Renaissance notation is not as prescriptive as modern scoring, and there is much that was left to the performer's interpretation: "Renaissance notation is under-prescriptive by our standards; when translated into modern form it acquires a prescriptive weight that overspecifies and distorts its original openness. Accidentals … may or may not have been notated, but what modern notation requires would then have been perfectly apparent without notation to a singer versed in counterpoint".

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Early music


text:
Elfenland

Elfenland is a German-style board game designed by Alan R. Moon and published by Amigo Spiele in German and Rio Grande Games in English in 1998. Elfenland won the Spiel des Jahres award in 1998.

Background
The game was originally based on his earlier game Elfenroads (published by White Wind), but since Elfenroads took about four hours for a game, the play was simplified to reduce the time closer to an hour, making it appeal more as a family game.

Gameplay
The game is played by 2–6 players, with 4–5 making for the best game. Each player tries to reach as many cities as possible and then return to his "home city." Home cities are drawn at the beginning of the game from a pack of city cards and they remain hidden throughout the game. The game is thus reminiscent of the traveling salesman problem.

Players move using transportation cards. Elves can travel on a wide variety of vehicles including troll wagons, elf cycles, rafts, giant pigs, unicorns, dragons and magic clouds. Different types of transportation will travel better over different terrain, and some methods of transport cannot cross certain terrains at all. There is only one problem: you cannot travel over a route (except water) unless there is a tile on that road, and only the type of transport shown on the tile can be used to move along that road. Before anyone can move, tiles are drawn and laid out across the board. This part is the one that calls for the most strategy, as players try to line up their tiles to set up a nice route for themselves and a difficult one for their opponents at the same time.

As well as normal tiles, each player receives one trouble tile for use during the game. These hinder other players by forcing them to use an extra transportation card at that point. Also, any player can simply use any three cards to pass over any route that has a tile already there, allowing the type of transport shown on the tile to be ignored.

The game has subtle strategies to make others navigate through the cities. When a player puts a transportation type you don't want in your path then you have to find a way around it. All of the aspects of the game make for a very exciting race to visit the most cities while never quite being sure who is winning until the last round.

Expansion
There was an expansion for Elfenland published, called Elfengold. Note that this is different from the original Elfengold published by White Wind.

Reception
Bernhard Fischer from Spieltest praised the game's mechanisms, and accessibility, but was mixed on the luck elements. It also won the 1998 Spiel des Jahres award, and placed third place in the 1998 Deutscher Spiele Preis award.

Reviews

 * Envoyer #24

title: Elfenland