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Talk:English proverbs

Recommend All "meanings" Be Deleted
The majority of meanings are incorrect or take the less intelligent interpretation. It is funny because proverb-like expressions are used in IQ tests and you can see why in many of the meanings. They do this on IQ tests because there are many "right" answers but the more intelligent you are you will read it differently as you ply into the depth of the statement. I'm sure many of the visitors to this page feel the same but don't want to waste time discussing it. Therefore, the best course is to simply remove these subjective meanings and allow the reader to take from it what they will. Otherwise, this page will continue to spread potentially incorrect interpretations regarding world famous and historic proverbs.99.35.227.129 22:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
Deleted the following, because it is not a proverb. 173.52.3.185
 * A Believer cannot interpret his scriptures until he gains enlightenment, but he cannot gain enlightenment until he interprets his scriptures.
 * Meaning: fundamentalists and "true believers" are caught in a "catch 22" that limits their understanding.
 * Loren Dean - songwriter 2002

A bit baffled by...
This:

A camel is a horse designed by committee.

* Meaning: a vision is more perfect from the individual rather than a group of people where it becomes anodyne.

Doesn't anodyne mean pain relief?

* Meaning: Mind your manners (Please and Thank You)

I believe "Mind your Ps and Qs" is a shortening of "Mind your pints and quarts," so a better meaning would be not only to mind your manners, but also mind how much you drink.

I believe it comes from typesetting, in which lower-case p's and q's are easy to mistake for one another. It means pay close attention to details. --Jdcrutch 22:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Particularly in movable type where you need to reverse the characters to make an impression anyway. 81.158.231.168 15:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Anodyne means bland. You mean Anadin!

Actually an "anodyne" is a pain reliever (NefariousWheel)
 * Yeah, but that's precisely because it means bland. It means that it dulls sensation in that area. 81.158.231.168 15:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

It might be a good idea eventually to check all these English proverbs against a reference book, like "Everyman's Dictionary of Quotations and Proverbs."

"Meanings" are mostly off the mark
Most of the interpretations of these proverbs ("Meaning: ...") seem to hit rather wide of the mark. It might be worth discussing whether to include them at all; after all, a proverb is the evolutionary reduction of a meme to its simplest expression. It appears pointless to expand on these refined kernels of English thought with such an expansion, especially when there is poor consensus as to their validity. (User:NefariousWheel 27-Aug-2008)

A few things
"A man's home is his castle"

The correct version is "An Englishman's home is his castle" since the rising of the yeomanry, it has been both a symbol of wealth and a tradition among english men to own their own home. The idea of renting a home (as is popular on the continent) is seen as undesirable.

 It's also correct as written, particularly in common-law jurisdictions outside England, such as the USA. It means not mere bourgeois pride of ownership but that a householder is entitled to security and privacy in his home, be it owned or rented, and may defend it with force. --Jdcrutch 22:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It appears in many films, televison programmes and given time i will cite a source. I have also heard the "little strokes, fell big oaks". In the yorkshire area, especialy rural villages. I believe it has become rather archaic but it does still exist. alternativly "Small strokes..."

it this farewell there's no blood there's no alibi cause I drawn regret from the truth of a thousand lies

so let mercy come and wash away what I've done

I'll face myself to cross out what I become erase myself and let go what i've done

put the rest what you thought of me while I clean slate of a uncertainty

so let mercy come and wash away what i've done

Suggestions
What about: Don't pee against wind. (this one tends to be a big issue for me.... I enjoy peeing against the wind.... The wind in my hair the piss in my face... Tasty. --Hurda
 * Used like: Doing this is like peeing against wind

The proverb "Steter Tropfen höhlt den Stein" is closest to the English "A small leak will sink a great ship." The idea of "Little strokes fell big oaks." is nice but not a traditional proverb that I know of. The idea of the proverb that constant action will have a large effect means that the one with the ship is maybe the closest equivalent.

-- Takuan Soho

 * Native Southern American English speaker here, I have heard of "Little strokes fell big oaks" before in the US, but it is fairly rare (I may have heard this three times tops in my entire life). A more appropriote proverb in America which isn't *really* a proverb would be "Loose lips sink ships" from the infamous US World War II poster. Zidel333 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Native Southern American English speaker here, I have heard of "Little strokes fell big oaks" before in the US, but it is fairly rare (I may have heard this three times tops in my entire life). A more appropriote proverb in America which isn't *really* a proverb would be "Loose lips sink ships" from the infamous US World War II poster. Zidel333 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

you are one racist basterd i'm just playing this a rare proverb

How about "There's a thin line between love and hate"

Meaning
I think the meaning of each proverbs should be also there. I know most of them are obvious for English speaking people, but may not for people having English as a second language. This page value for them would increase dramatically. Ervinn 22:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC) yes u should provide the meanings too.so how do we get to the meanings now of the proverbs we want?

I agree that it's good to supply meanings, but (in my 'umble opinion) you guys should reach some consensus on the exact meanings before you supply them on the page proper. E.g.:

* A calm sea does not make a skilled sailor. (African proverb) o Meaning: calm times do not show anything; it's the tough times that make you what you are.

I agree with the first half of this, but not the second. It's not so much about tough times making you what you are (i.e., "That which does not destroy me can only make me stronger"), but rather that the tough times are when you prove yourself.

I'd say:

o Meaning: anyone can look good when the task is easy.

To supply an analogy, I would use this to describe a new sports manager who seemed to be doing really well, if I wanted to remind people that he had inherited a very strong side and had only played crappy teams since he took over. In other words, I'd be saying, "Let's see how good he is when a storm hits!"

* A chain is no stronger than its weakest link. o Meaning: The strength of any group depends on the individual strength of each of its members.

I think the meaning of this analogy is slightly more specific than that - it reminds listeners that *a single* weak member can undermine an otherwise very strong group. I'd say:

o Meaning: Even a good team can fail if one weak member lets it down.

Or, to borrow the phrase visible on the page itself:

o Meaning: The strength of any group depends on the strength of its weakest member.

I'm not saying that these definitions are... er... definitive (or I'd put them on the main page) but thought I'd offer them here to prompt a little debate.

Why is nobody checking on this page
there have been about 15 revisions by unregistered users that don't make sense. Please stop. Lord GaleVII 13:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not registered yet myself, but as someone who comes here often, I too have noticed an awful lot of weird edits. (For example the only two that are outlined in blue from "vapocolypse"--whatever that's about...) 125.246.85.194 05:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-proverbs, origins of Proverbs and too many duplicates
Please check the list carefully for duplicates before you add your entry. I have removed many duplicate entries, but people continue to add well-known proverbs before checking and seeing that someone else has already added it (perhaps in a slightly different wording).

Many of the supposed proverbs are quotes or witticisms, and not proverbs at all. A proverb has to give some kind of life rule or guidance.

Also, many of the proverbs in this list do not originate from English, therefore they are not English proverbs at all, they are merely proverbs translated to English. Should we exclude known foreign and translated proverbs, or indicate the national origin of a translated proverb? 91.106.237.140 16:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

A proverb may be just a common saying that expresses a truth, not necessarily guidance. All proverbs originate as quotations from somebody. For instance, a great many of our proverbs come from the poets, particularly Shakespeare.

 * That’s a pretty bold and unsubstantiated claim there, surely? Some proverbs may have originated from poets, but you’d be hard pressed to prove it – a poet is as likely to be quoting something they’d heard elsewhere. Proverbs might be found written down for the first time in Shakespeare, but nothing says he created them…79.67.148.152 15:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It's often difficult to know in what language or country a proverb originated. If it has become current in English, it's an English proverb, no matter where it originated.--Jdcrutch 22:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello! If you are a native speaker of British English or American English, without obligation you are invited to participate in this study by completing the questionnaire. It is estimated that the survey will take approximately 10 minutes to complete. My dissertation research on psycholinguistics is based on “Man the Manipulator” by Everett L. Shostrom. One of the research objectives is to find out if the manipulations are more characteristic for English... or Russian. If you are interested and ready to complete the questionnaire or have further questions and comments concerning this study, please contact me at curlyramina@yahoo.com If you are interested in receiving a summary of the survey results, you can contact me by e-mail, and the results will be forwarded to you.

Sincerely, Marina Maravina, a postgraduate research student at the Department of Linguistics and International Collaboration, Ulyanovsk State University, Russia

Mmmmm… flies

 * A closed mouth catches no flies.
 * Meaning: One has to try in order to succeed.

Seriously? One has to open one's mouth in order to catch flies? And catching flies in this manner is a good thing?

My personal interpretation of this proverb is closer to:

 * refrain from excessive talk to prevent unpleasant consequences

though you could further qualify "talk" (e.g. gossip, slander, etc.) -- 74.137.108.115 05:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I doubt this is an English proverb at all, but is from the Spanish: En boca cerrada, no entran moscas. Flies have an iconic significance in Spanish culture that makes the proverb poignant, while English speakers are generally baffled as to what it means exactly. ~ Ningauble 15:17, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Disputable entries, suggest clean-up
A number of the entries are of very disputable justification. Mostly this sound like neologisms, possibly even something that the author of the entry thought out himself. Others, e.g. "All for one and one for all." are not commonly used as proverbs (although, given a suitable situation, it conceivably could be), but as pop-cultures references, pep-talk, or similar. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." is handy to describe a certain situation, but is simply not a proverb.

A further criticism of unsufficient notability could likely be directed at many entries; however, considering that a proverb unheard of in London may be in common use in Tulsa, I do not feel qualified to make a definite statement.

I would suggest to check the entries against one or several reputable proverb collections, remove everything not found in them (for the time being), and subsequently only add entries that can be referenced from other similarly reputable sources. 88.77.191.233 16:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree that many of these are neither proverbs in purport nor proverbial in fame. Each entry on this page should be both. A good housecleaning is in order butyou are right to approach the task with some caution since demonstrating a negative is difficult. ~ Ningauble 18:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I have noticed that at the beginning of the page on English proverbs there is this sentence, "Ability can take you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." This quotation by Zig Zigler, I believe, should not be included in the English proverbs section, as, at best, it is just a catchy aphorism made up by its author. Anyone can do that sort of thing (especially if he doesn't think about it for too long), but a proverb has to have more credence to it than this; it has to be a cultural saying accepted as a proverb by all who hear it, and, preferably, one not immediately attributable to its originator, be it its known author or someone who is just repeating it as a quotation. It does not have to be anonymous, although it helps, but it does have to be catchy --easily memorable. If this quotation by Zig Zigler is accepted as being a proverb then, in this way, any modern, throwaway remark made up on the spur of the moment could very quickly qualify, according to how often it was being used in modern society. As, for example, this one, "Able manners can open doors for you, but keeping them open requires you to push," which is as good an example of aphoristic triviality you will get for it, or would wish. If this is the standard that defined the acceptability of catchy remarks on this page as proverbs, then this sort of trivial remark would have just as much right to be included as this well-known quotation by Zig Zigler, that is: none whatsoever. I believe that, in the future, more care should be taken over what is included in this page as being an accepted proverb. ~ Wise Raven 14:17, 14 may 2012 (UTC)

good friends are good for your health
Real friends don't leave you if you are in a heavy situation for example you are ill and you need somebodys help.They will be with you forever in good and worse situation they are like a brother or a parent.Your friends will take care of you and your health and will love you all the time. A good friend always encourages you enjoy and treasure you.

“The childhood shows the man, As morning shows the day.”

the alternate format that took me 2 hours to incorporate and that has since been buried...
Just wanted to make a note of the alternate format that took me 2 hours to incorporate and that has since been buried by some jack a**.

Here's a link to what the page looked like when I had finished with it: http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=English_proverbs&oldid=1467298

And, before you mediocre goof balls even think it, a reminder of wikipedia's 5th pillar: "Wikipedia does not have firm rules."

"If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it."

i.e. if the format of this page really sucks (which it does) improve it (which I did).

Seipjere (talk) 04:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I am with you. --Spannerjam (talk) 09:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

typo
is there under: It's a cracked pitcher that goes longest to the well. Meaning: Frail people lasrs long.

Subject headings
I think the recent introduction of subject headings in this article is not a good idea. That is what theme articles are for. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I completely agree - the use of the subject headings is not appropriate. ~ UDScott (talk) 14:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is subject headings not a good idea, and why is it not appropriate? If you want to expand the theme articles, be my guest, but I don't see what that has anything to do with maintainiing and improving the "English proverbs" article. --Spannerjam (talk) 15:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * We have articles on things like Horses and Apples and Bears and Birds and Wine. It is certainly plausible to seperate out a section in these theme articles for proverbs on the subject (or using the subject to illustrate a point), and have a "see also" section on this page linking to theme sections. Also, to provide one concrete example of the problem, I think "A bad settlement is better than a good lawsuit" is not a proverb at all. Even so, I wonder why such a phrase would be listed under "Bad", since it's not about "badness" per se, instead of under "Settlement" or "Lawsuit". Furthermore, why would it be the only proverb listed under "Bad"? Why not "Better to be alone than in bad company", "Make the best of a bad bargain", or "A bad workman blames his tools"? These examples illustrate how this scheme of classification will always be somewhat arbitrary, and ultimately detrimental to the person seeking relevant quotes for a topic. BD2412  T 18:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing is stopping you from listing the same proverb under several headings. --Spannerjam (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

 * I have, for the time being, created English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb). This being a wiki, I see no reason why we can't have two pages presenting English proverbs in different formats. BD2412 T 19:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * BD2412 I am a bit confused. In your prior post you describe one of the problems with having a layout by subject, and yet now you are saying that it doesn't hurt to have both types of layouts. To me the one with the subject headings presents too many issues of subjectivity in placing quotes. Additionally, having two pages, with ostensibly the same content but with a different layout presents its own problems of keeping both up to date. I see them easily spinning off into two separate versions when someone adds a quote to one but not the other, or updates a source on one but not the other. I would rather we decide which way to go and limit it to one page. Obviously my preference is the simple alphabetical sorting. ~ UDScott (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What I'm saying is, we should provide both layouts and let the reader decide what is useful to them. We would move this page to something like English proverbs (alphabetically by subject), and at the base page name English proverbs link to each and describe the difference between them, including the indication that the alphabetical listing by proverb includes full source information, while the listing by subject does not. I am not concerned about some divergence in material - no them page on this project has every quote that it possibly could have, and if my proposition about section redirects is taken up, proverbs on topics like dogs and apples will not appear on this page at all, but would appear on a page not organized by subject. BD2412 T 19:46, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with UDScott on this. Creating a fork is only going to multiply the problems with what has always been a very problematic page. I and others have incrementally invested considerable effort in improving this page by researching origins, tracing variants, clearing out superfluous and spurious (and downright silly) explanations of "meanings", pruning contributions of various sorts that just ain't proverbs, etc. Much of this work has recently been thrown away. The prospect of recovering what has been lost and continuing the work was already daunting enough for a single page. I am finding it difficult to muster any enthusiasm for continuing this work when a fork virtually doubles the effort required. I don't even feel like re-doing the work of correcting the error of alphabetizing by leading articles "A" and "The". It seems futile. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd rather have a fork than have no page for proverbs laid out alphabetically and with full sourcing in the same place as the quote. BD2412 T 17:39, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with the proposition that it is better not to abandon the organization we had before. I also agree with your earlier statement (about which you may have changed your mind) that "this scheme of classification will always be somewhat arbitrary, and ultimately detrimental to the person seeking relevant quotes for a topic." It seems to me that if one is definitely to be kept and the other is ultimately detrimental then the logical conclusion is to stick with the former and not have a fork. I'd rather have one foot on solid ground and one in a sinking ship than give up on terra firma altogether, naturally, but that doesn't mean straddling the options is the best course. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't changed my mind about the headings scheme being arbitrary, but I suppose there are some users who will find aspects of this arrangement to be useful. It's useless and problematic to classify all proverbs containing the word "bad" or "new" in this way, but if you are looking for proverbs that mention apples or horses or candles, this is not an unreasonable method. BD2412 T 19:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * @ Spannerjam: I disagree about listing the same item multiple times on the same page. There is nothing wrong with listing something in multiple theme articles where it is germane, but duplication within a page is best  avoided. For a topic as broad as Proverbs, of which there must be tens of thousands in circulation and in historical literature, this could become monumentally bloated. The point of BD2412's example was that the heading was wrong, or at best arbitrary. Another example is "nothing ventured, nothing gained", which is not about Nothingness, it's about (in-)Action. Headings ought not be used as a word index (even if the table of contents were not broken), that is the function of the search features of the wiki and the browser. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * My sorting is perhaps a little bit arbitrary, but it's advantages far exceeds it's disadvantages, in my humble opinion. It is the very "indexing" that prevents the bloating of this page. By dividing the proverbs into theme headings the article comes to be much more lucid. Just because our browsers and search engines does a great job when it comes to giving us navigation capabilities, there is no reason not to make navigation even easier by enhancing this site. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" is indeed about nothingness: venturing nothing, to be precise. We may have a problem with an overcrowding of proverbs in the future, but that should not hinder us from solving the problems with the overcrowding of proverbs we have now. --Spannerjam (talk) 18:47, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * To me your disagreement with where to properly place "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" highlights the very problem with this kind of sorting. While it may be quite obvious with some proverbs, with others it is not as simple and could cause more confusion in the end. Placing them into these sections is nothing more than a subjective exercise that reflects the opinion of the sorter, but not necessarily the opinion of others who may be searching for a specific proverb. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why I suggest some proverbs can be listed under multiple headings. And if future visitors have problems with this page, why not let them sort it out rather than that we in this forum speculate about a problem that might not even come to be? After all, I was a visitor once, who registred because I saw flaws on the proverbs part of the website, not least this article. --Spannerjam (talk) 19:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Respectfully, I completely disagree with that line of thinking. It is precisely to avoid anticipated problems in the future that we have such discussions. If we were to just let future users "sort it out" then we might as well stop trying to improve the site. I recently provided an explanation for one of the proverbs ("What goes up must come down") and I found myself a bit frustrated in trying to decipher under which subheading it appeared. I think that your scheme ends up pushing a user to a page search function anyway and defeats the purpose of having subheadings - just my opinion. ~ UDScott (talk) 19:45, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * My purpose of implementing theme subheadings was not to make the page easier to search, but to make it more readable. --Spannerjam (talk) 20:46, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Removal of historical citations and proverbs
Numerous historical citations have been removed from this article in recent months, including George Herbert's Jacula Prudentum (1651), Nathan Bailey's Divers Proverbs (1721) and, appallingly, even William Shakespeare and the Bible. Sometimes the earliest known source, or even the original one, has been replaced with a much less noteworthy recent one, and many historical proverbs have been removed entirely. Whoever has been doing this is respectfully requested to review what Sourcing says about citing original sources and earliest known literary sources. It will take quite a lot of work to restore all of the research that has been lost. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that the removal of original sources is not the way to go - all proverbs pages should in fact use original sources if they are known. This, combined with the subject headings mentioned in the previous post combine to make this page require a substantial amount of work to return to its preferred state. ~ UDScott (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The removal of the original sources and the earliest known sources was not a good way to go, I also think now that you mention it. However, it is still my belief that subject headings is a sound idea, simply because the page becomes much more easily readable. --Spannerjam (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed some proverbs because I think the page is better without them, but I will from now on not delete any more of them without pointing it out and give an explanation in the edit log. --Spannerjam (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that even if a quote is of questionable value as a proverb, it might still be useful on a theme page for the topic of the quote. Cheers! BD2412 T 17:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I strongly and definitely agree that every proverb should indicate its earliest known source. Obviously, the authors of the various collections cited as sources are not authors of the quotes themselves. Why would we, as a project, want to tell our readers that they must go to a different collection of quotes to find full citation information? Furthermore, sometimes these collections have it wrong, and our editing structure puts us in a better place to correct the errors of printed publications. I believe the phrase, "some days you get the bear, other days the bear gets you" is popularly attributed to Davy Crockett, and I would be surprised to find an authoritative compendium of quotations that did not at least mention this, even if to debunk the notion. BD2412  T 18:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there's a case for giving the earliest known cite and a cite to a dictionary of proverbs, to prove that it's regarded as a proverb.--Collingwood (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true and certainly fine - as long as the original is included, I don't think it is a problem to include other instances where a proverb is cited (especially if from a particularly notable source). ~ UDScott (talk) 19:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I mentioned above that I think "A bad settlement is better than a good lawsuit" is not a proverb at all. I would suggest that for every phrase asserted to be a proverb, we should require both the earliest known authorship of the phrase and reference to some authoritative source (e.g. a collection of proverbs) indicating that the phrase is indeed a proverb. BD2412 T 19:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

This is going to take a tremendous amount of work. Look at the source for "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" for an especially appalling citation. The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs provides historical sources for most proverbs here; for example, the one about eggs in one basket is dated to an Italian dictionary of English phrases from 1666 and quite a few later sources. I'll try to make a start, but it's going to be slow going. - Macspaunday (talk) 22:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Providing a comprehensive collection of quotations with better source information than all those fly-by-night quote websites, and better even then many printed collections, was always going to be a lot of work. Fortunately, we've got a wiki, and a small army of impassioned participants. BD2412 T 15:49, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

English proverbs "cleanup"-sign
Moving (copying) a discussion from Ningauble's talk page:
 * Why does the English proverbs page need a cleanup according to you? --Spannerjam (talk) 21:16, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I will elaborate on this at the article talk page. I am a little busy with "real life" right now, so it will be later today or sometime tomorrow. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:42, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * As indicated, Ningauble will provide comments later, but my opinion is that cleanup is needed for two reasons: the layout does not conform to the established templates (meaning the smaller font for the citation and meaning), as well as the sorting by subjective section headings, as discussed here. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The layout does not have to conform to established rules, if they are preventing you from improving Wikipedia or any of Wikipedia's sister projects. See Wikipedias' fifth pillar. Spannerjam (talk) 21:15, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You asked why the cleanup tag was on the page, and I gave the answer. Of course questioning or even ignoring rules if they prevent you from improving the site is good, but your alternate layout is the product of one person's opinion (yours). This site is built on consensus and, to quote from the same link you provided, ""Ignore all rules" does not mean that every action is justifiable. It is neither a trump card nor a carte blanche. Rule ignorers must justify how their actions improve the encyclopedia if challenged. Actually, everyone should be able to do that at all times. In cases of conflict, what counts as an improvement is decided by consensus." I don't believe a fight is warranted here, but your alternate layout should be discussed and a consensus reached on its use. I happen to believe that having templates does help improve the site because it provides a common look and feel. But in the end, mine is only one opinion too - this is something that should be brought up and discussed (and in the end, if a consensus is established, the templates can be amended) rather than just applied to a single page because one user feels it is better than what is already established. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:59, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

— end of copied discussion —
 * That sounds fair enough. Let's take this matter to the village pump, or whatever procedure is appropriate! --Spannerjam (talk) 06:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I placed a cleanup tag on this article because it has several problems: Lack of bullets: The standard templates for Wikiquote articles use a bullet list for quotations with sub-bullets for citations and annotations. This page is using various typographic effects in lieu of these explicit semantic delimiters. Excessive use of boldface: All of the quotes are written entirely with strong emphasis, defeating the purpose of boldface, which is to call attention to key words or phrases within a block of text. Instead, it gives the impression of writing with a crayon.</li> <li>Inappropriate use of fine print: This greatly reduces legibility, and diminishes the importance which Wikiquote places on citation as integral to quotation.</li></ol> (Note that the combined effect of items 2 and 3 is that the main body of the article consists entirely of headings, boldface, and fine print. No part of it uses the base font, specifically designed by professional typographers for ease of reading the main body of text.) <li>Footnotes are deprecated: The full citation belongs with the quotation. Doing otherwise diminishes the importance which Wikiquote places on citation as integral to quotation. </li> <li>Original commentary: The template for proverbs provides for "Notes (context, clarifications where needed, etc.)". There are a few proverbs for which well-cited explanations of historical context have been provided, and clarification of archaic terminology or obscure references is a good thing. However, the "etc." should not be taken as an invitation for users to add personal opinions and commentary. Superfluous and spurious "explanations" have been purged from the article repeatedly, and this needs to be done again.</li> <li>Idiosyncratic headings: This is discussed by several users at  above. The use of subject(-ive) headings in Wikiquote articles is strongly deprecated because it is essentially an expression of personal opinion about the meaning or significance of the quotes.</li> </ol> There are a lot of issues here, largely the product of a single user reworking the article. Apart from general observations about the current situation, I would suggest that if any of these numbered points need to be discussed in detail then it may be appropriate to use separate (sub-)sections (such as above) to facilitate coherent focus on individual questions that may need to be resolved. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I completely agree with Ningauble here, and would add that if we are going to provide "interpretations" of proverbs, we should avoid providing our own interpretations, but should as much as possible use those of a reliable third party, with a citation to that party's interpretation. <font style="background:#F2E6CE">BD2412 T 19:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There are no interpreted explanations of a proverb's meaning: an explanation can only either be wrong or right. (Though there are some exceptions to this rule, just like every other rule.) --Spannerjam (talk) 19:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Consider:
 * Life imitates art.
 * Events in the real world was inspired by a creative work. (Bloom, 2007)
 * Says who? <font style="background:#F2E6CE">BD2412 T 23:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The people who use this proverb. (hopefully) --Spannerjam (talk) 07:41, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On what authority do you claim that this is what the people who us this proverb should mean? <font style="background:#F2E6CE">BD2412 T 21:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * From googling and public scrutiny. --Spannerjam (talk) 08:45, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what is meant by original research. It is not Wikiquote's business to opine about what proverbs and other quotations mean. The point of BD's questions here is that, where an explanation is really necessary, we should cite what reliable sources ("authorities") say about it. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:25, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I again must use the Wikipedia: Ignore all rules-card. I believe most visitors wants to know about the exact meaning of the proverbs they are reading. I base this on the fact that I myself was, and still am, frustrated about not knowing all the meanings of the proverbs here on Wikiquote, and finding proverb meanings claimed by scholars would just be too time consuming, since for some strange reason, most paremiological books don't explain the meanings of the proverbs they are listing. --Spannerjam (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What if you're wrong about the meaning of a proverb? I think you're playing the "ignore all rules" card a bit too much. We can still develop consensus against that particular action, and "ignore consensus" is definitely not a standard here. <font style="background:#F2E6CE">BD2412 T 04:31, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If I am wrong about the meaning of a proverb, hopefully someone will correct me. --Spannerjam (talk) 08:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

 * The layout does not have to conform to established rules, if they are preventing you from improving Wikipedia or any of Wikipedia's sister projects. See Wikipedias' fifth pillar. I just disagree with you that small font citation somehow "diminishes the importance which Wikiquote places on citation as integral to quotation". And even if that was the case, perhaps it is the price you have to pay in order to make the page more readable? Boldface can be replaced with italics and "citation marks" (Alltough I have never seen a need to emphasize a proverb in itself.)

 * Text written with a crayon is beautiful! :)

 * I am sure that the professional typographers not had every Wiki-scenario in the world in mind, when they choose what body text Wikipedia should have.

 * It is a wonderful thing that this page apparently is user friendly enough to encourage newcomers to contribute. They make beginner's mistakes like... well, all beginners, but they will quickly learn to put comments and personal opinions in the edit summary, instead of the main page, like everyone else.

 * I am not at all against rules for determining under which heading a proverb should be placed. However, I would prefer Hayekian rulemaking. In other words, the thesis that those who are actually consuming this page knows best what needs to be done. But I am open for suggestions of heading rules! --Spannerjam (talk) 19:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I too agree with all of Ningauble's above points. While it is true that Wiki encourages the ignoring of rules if they prevent improvement, I believe that the changes made do not improve things, and instead make the page worse. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:03, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Since the consensus is clear, I will begin implementing these six points soon, unless anyone else joins the discussion with an opposing view. It will take quite a while to complete the task. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ...Hold your horses! Three long time users with an ideological bias (Not meant as an insult, but as a simple description.) against one, can hardly be considered a clear consensus. --Spannerjam (talk) 14:41, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Hold on for what? Contention about this article has been advertised at the Village Pump for seven weeks now, and not one person has endorsed your position. When, as the proverbial expression goes, "everybody's out of step but Johnny", it is time to stop holding on to the proverbial spanner that is jamming the works. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree and fully support Ningauble's decision to move forward. Although I am admittedly one of the "three long time users with an ideological bias" I believe the issue has been open long enough for comment and it is now time to act. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

A compromise about the layout of "English Proverbs"
How about we delete this page and have these two pages instead: English proverbs (alphabetically by proverb) and English proverbs (alphabetically by theme)? --Spannerjam (talk) 10:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see how that would address the problem of the selection of the so-called themes - they would still be the product of a subjective selection process. ~ UDScott (talk) 01:08, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * No solution is perfect, just like no medicine is without it's side effects. You still take the medicine which is more helpful than it is detrimental. --Spannerjam (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * My point is that this is in no way a compromise (as you've labeled this subsection). It does not address the problem that I and others have raised. It's not about an imperfect solution, but rather no solution. ~ UDScott (talk) 01:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It is a solution to the following problem: You could not easily understand the meanings of the proverbs that were listed on this page. This was simply because they were not explained, but also for the reason that the layout of the page was poor. I have addressed both these issues. --Spannerjam (talk) 08:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to belabor the point further, but you have solved the problems that you saw with the page, but you seem to not understand the meaning of the word compromise. I am referring to the problems with your changes that I and other editors have identified. You have not yet addressed these and therefore there can be no compromise. That is what I meant. No need to continue this discussion - the larger points enumerated in the above section are more important to address. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Cross-wiki Proverb redundancy
A discussion of cross-wiki Proverb redundancy relating to this page has been initiated at the Wikipedia Village Pump. <font style="background:#F2E6CE">BD2412 T 02:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Lion
Why isn't this one on the list?

"Being a lion get’s you in the door, but you can’t eat at the table unless you’ve got a butt like a human butt. Due to the nature of the seats."

Should we delete this dogpile?
Seriously, few of these have authoritative references and some are just silly. Maybe just delete those that lack authoritative references? (That would remove most of the entries.) —Danorton (talk) 15:33, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Missing proverbs
Where are the proverbs from Advice to H?--Risto hot sir (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2019 (UTC) - It seems that if we add a new topic some other will disappear. What to do?--Risto hot sir (talk) 22:23, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Now I see the proverbs again. A curly bracket was missing. By the way please add a page number for the proverb source you provide, as you did on this page. Spannerjam (talk) 04:46, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, I've copied the original proverbs from local sites. Because they consist 550 000 bytes I never ever will have time to search the page numbers.--Risto hot sir (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Fineǃ Did I forget some page numbers?--Risto hot sir (talk) 09:25, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I am talking about your edits on Estonian proverbs and Finnish proverbs. Spannerjam (talk) 14:17, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:English proverbs


text:
Wikiquote

[[file:Scott Glenn 2011 Shankbone.JPG|thumb|Well, not that [[wise]]; he gets all his best lines from Wikiquote

— Chris Knight on the character Wise Man ]]

Wikiquote is one of a family of wiki-based projects run by the Wikimedia Foundation, running on MediaWiki software. Based on an idea by Daniel Alston and implemented by Brion Vibber, the goal of the project which began as an outgrowth to Wikipedia Famous Quotations is to produce collaboratively a vast reference of quotations from prominent people, books, films, proverbs, etc., and to be as proper as possible in regard to the details of the quotations and also providing the appropriate human reference of the quotation. Though there are many online collections of quotations, Wikiquote is one of the few that provide an opportunity for visitors to contribute. Wikiquote pages are cross-linked to articles about individuals and topics on Wikipedia and to original texts on Wikisource.

Quotes from Wikiquote

 * Wikiquote is a free online compendium of sourced quotations from notable people and creative works in every language, translations of non-English quotes, and links to Wikipedia for further information.
 * Main Page since 10 March 2009.

Quotes about Wikiquote

 * There are loads of quotations stored at Wikiquote ( http://www.wikiquote.org ) where you can enter a search phrase like "life" or "humour" and get loads of quotations from different notable personalities. Each personality is linked to their page in Wikipedia.
 * Hafsa Ahsan, "It's all about Wikis," DAWN (27 January 2007).

 * Some might go a step further and contend that a place like Wikiquote is appropriate since the quotes can be verified. The same with Wikisource, which contains documents you can read or download of great scientific, literary, religious, and political figures.  Unlike Wikipedia or Wikinews, there is no real crowdsourcing of the content; the crowd only helped find the original works and posted them there.  So one wiki resource might be acceptable and another might not.
 * Curtis J. Bonk, interviewed by Scott Jaschik, "'The World Is Open'," Inside Higher Ed (25 August 2009).

 * Wikiquote is a repository of quotations from prominent people, books, films, and so on. If you're reading a page of quotations by a person (like Mark Twain), you can jump to a Wikipedia article via a visible link and vice versa...
 * John Broughton, "What Wikipedia is Not" in "Reader's Guide to Wikipedia," ch. 1 of Wikipedia Reader's Guide: The Missing Manual (Sebastopol, CA: O'Reilly Media, Inc., 2008), p. 23.

 * Lazy recall frequently means any witticism is attributed to Oscar Wilde or Dorothy Parker, and any profound statement to Gandhi or Nelson Mandela. Wikiquote is good for tracing the correct wording and origin of bons mots, but bear in mind what Abraham Lincoln said: "Don't believe everything you read on the internet."
 * Tom Calverley, "Cite and sound: the pleasures and pitfalls of quoting people," The Guardian (14 October 2014).

 * Wikiquote has interesting and useful categories to peruse and also offers all readers the opportunity to become Wikiquotians (people who write and/or edit articles) themselves.
 * Although you can search Wikiquote in a search box by topical words, such as "peace," "animal rights," "silence," "success," etc., that identifies applicable quotations, I find searching by categories to be more entertaining.
 * Gemma DeVinney, "Electronic Highways", UB Reporter (University of Buffalo, 18 January 2007).

 * As to the content, Wikiquotes [sic] does provide a good central repository of a massively broad range of references.  I can imagine this will be of interest mostly to those reading for general interest, or doing specific research.  For example, you can find articles based on anything from the cultured musings of Samuel Pepys, Ocar Wilde  [sic], or Immanuel Kant; to the lesser known quotes from the world of Star Trek or StarGate SG-1  [sic]!
 * David Gilson, "Review: Wikiquotes," All About Symbian (1 May 2011).

 * If we were contacted by a copyright holder with a complaint about Wikiquote, of course, we would attempt to respond within reason to resolve the complaint without anyone's having to resort to litigation. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act actually provides for services like Wikiquote a way of resolving copyright complaints without serious risk of litigation through its notice-and-takedown procedures. I'm not aware of any DMCA notices regarding Seinfeld quotations on Wikiquote.
 * Mike Godwin 21:20:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC), The foundation-l mailing list

 * Situated on the 19-year-old's left forearm, the new ink reads: "So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Miley is either an undercover history buff or really adept at using Wikiquote, because the words are a portion of a speech made by President Roosevelt at the Sorbonne, Paris, in 1910.
 * Meredith Goldberg-Morse, "Miley Cyrus Debuts New Tattoo, And It's ... Kinda Smart?," MTV News (11 July 2012).

 * It's somehow appropriate that in the same week that Michael Scott leaves The Office that two computer scientists at the University of Washington announce their particular breakthrough in natural language programing—a computer program that knows when to say "That's what she said" to a double entendre.  ...[T]his type of language play is actually a complicated computer science program.  ...  To "train" the computer how to identify the right sentences, they used twssstories.com, a repository of user-submitted "TWSS" jokes, and non-entendre text from sites such as Wikiquote.
 * Alex Knapp, "A Computer That Knows When To Say "That's What She Said"," Forbes (30 April 2011).

 * Baby Doll's escape plan comes courtesy of a dream in which she meets Scott Glenn, playing a character called Wise Man. Well, not that wise; he gets all his best lines from Wikiquote, and hangs out in one of those how'd-they-find-time-to-light-all-those-candles Asian temples.
 * Chris Knight, "Film Review: Sucker Punch (2 stars)," National Post (24 March 2011).

 * Buzzy Jackson is dismayed by "inspirational" books. Not so much because they exist, but because she "never encountered a single one that spoke directly to those of us with a secular outlook."  ... [O]n going to the bookstore, she found a void.  If Chicken Soup for the Soulless didn't exist, would it be necessary to invent it?  Yes, apparently. Jackson seems to have scoured an extensive book collection—or possibly Wikiquote—for timeless wisdom on thirty-three alphabetical subjects, from "advice" to "work."
 * Chris R. Morgan, "Chicken Soup for the Soulless," First Things (New Jersey).

 * The Web is a community, and despite the questionable information you can find there, it also offers you the ability to connect with people and start a dialogue. Wikiquote, despite the inherent problems of any Wiki to which anyone can contribute, can be a worthy resource because it enables multiple people to engage in a dialogue.  It also often contains links to external sources in text and audio formats where applicable.
 * James Sullivan, "Misquotes: Searching for Authenticity Online," finding Dulcinea (27 October 2011).

 * To make sure your quotes are available to the widest possible audience, we're working with the Wikiquote project to collect and archive the quotes for posterity. ...  Wikiquote has a section on chemistry-related material and we, working with the Royal Society of Chemistry’s Wikimedian in residence, Andy Mabbett, are going to expand it—with your help.  As well as offering prizes for the best (the funniest; the most poignant) chemistry related quotations; we will share all the entries with the Wikiquote community.
 * Ben Valsler, "Quotable chemistry – a Chemistry World competition," chemistryworldblof (Royal Society of Chemistry, 9 July 2015).

 * There are good ways of checking stories and quotations. Just as the Internet is the source of a lot of misinformation, it also offers the tools to find the truth.  Most well-known stories and quotes can be checked using the search box on Google.com or any number of other sites such as Snopes or WikiQuote.
 * Timothy Walch, "The Declaration of Independence (and other historic words): too important to be misquoted," MinnPost (4 July 2010).

 * When you're looking for a famous quote from a movie, book, or historical figure, try Wikiquote. Wikiquote is a free, searchable database of quotes from people and creative works.  The site, launched in July 2003, has blossomed quickly.
 * Dan Woods and Peter Thoeny, Wikis For Dummies (Indianapolis, Indiana: Wiley Publishing, Inc., 2007).

 * Wikipedia has several sister projects, including Wiktionary, Wikiquote, and Wikispecies. They are all run by volunteers like you.
 * Ibid.

 * In short, the goal of the Wikiquote is to produce a vast reference of quotations from prominent people, books, films, and proverbs. There are, of course, a number of online collections of quotations already on the web, however Wikiquote is distinguished by being among the few that provide an opportunity for visitors to contribute, which is nice.
 * "There's More To Wikimedia Than Wikipedia...," Food for Translators (25 April 2015).

 * Angelou's writing lends itself to the kind of short wikiquote soundbite wisdom the internet loves, but that does a discredit to its brilliance when taken as a whole.
 * Number five of "The Actual Best Celebrity Biographies," The Debrief (8 July 2015).

title: Wikiquote


text: Talk:Wikiquote

title: Talk:Wikiquote


text:
The Sonnets

This page is for select quotations of The Sonnets of William Shakespeare; for the complete set of poems, see The Sonnets at Wikisource.

I

 * From fairest creatures we desire increase, That thereby beauty's rose might never die

II

 * When forty winters shall besiege thy brow, And dig deep trenches in thy beauty's field, Thy youth's proud livery so gazed on now, Will be a tatter'd weed of small worth held

III

 * Look in thy glass and tell the face thou viewest Now is the time that face should form another

 * Die single and thine image dies with thee.

IV

 * Unthrifty loveliness, why dost thou spend Upon thy self thy beauty's legacy? Nature's bequest gives nothing, but doth lend, And being frank she lends to those are free

V

 * Flowers distill'd, though they with winter meet, Leese but their show; their substance still lives sweet.

VI

 * Be not self-will'd, for thou art much too fair To be death's conquest and make worms thine heir.

VII

 * Lo! in the orient when the gracious light Lifts up his burning head, each under eye Doth homage to his new-appearing sight, Serving with looks his sacred majesty

VIII

 * Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly? Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy

IX

 * Beauty's waste hath in the world an end, And kept unused the user so destroys it.

X

 * For shame! deny that thou bear'st love to any, Who for thy self art so unprovident.

XI

 * Let those whom nature hath not made for store, Harsh, featureless, and rude, barrenly perish:

XIV

 * Not from the stars do I my judgement pluck; And yet methinks I have astronomy, But not to tell of good or evil luck, Of plagues, of dearths, or seasons' quality...

XV

 * When I consider every thing that grows Holds in perfection but a little moment, That this huge stage presenteth nought but shows Whereon the stars in secret influence comment...

XVI

 * To give away yourself, keeps yourself still, And you must live, drawn by your own sweet skill.

XVII

 * If I could write the beauty of your eyes, And in fresh numbers number all your graces, The age to come would say 'This poet lies

XVIII

 * Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Thou art more lovely and more temperate

XIX

 * Devouring Time, blunt thou the lion's paws, And make the earth devour her own sweet brood; Pluck the keen teeth from the fierce tiger's jaws, And burn the long-liv'd phoenix, in her blood
 * Yet, do thy worst old Time: despite thy wrong, My love shall in my verse ever live young.

XXI

 * O! let me, true in love, but truly write, And then believe me, my love is as fair As any mother's child, though not so bright As those gold candles fix'd in heaven's air...

XXIII

 * O! learn to read what silent love hath writ: To hear with eyes belongs to love's fine wit.

XXIX

 * For thy sweet love remember'd such wealth brings That then I scorn to change my state with kings.

XXX

 * But if the while I think on thee, dear friend, All losses are restor'd and sorrows end.

XXXI

 * Thy bosom is endeared with all hearts, Which I by lacking have supposed dead; And there reigns Love, and all Love's loving parts, And all those friends which I thought buried.
 * Their images I lov'd, I view in thee, And thou — all they — hast all the all of me.

XXXII

 * If thou survive my well-contented day, When that churl Death my bones with dust shall cover, And shalt by fortune once more re-survey These poor rude lines of thy deceased lover, Compare them with the bettering of the time, And though they be outstripp'd by every pen, Reserve them for my love, not for their rhyme, Exceeded by the height of happier men.

LVII

 * Being your slave, what should I do but tend Upon the hours and times of your desire? I have no precious time at all to spend, Nor services to do, till you require.

LX

 * Time doth transfix the flourish set on youth, And delves the parallels in beauty's brow, Feeds on the rarities of nature's truth, And nothing stands but for his scythe to mow

LXIV

 * This thought is as a death which cannot choose But weep to have, that which it fears to lose.

LXV

 * O! none, unless this miracle have might, That in black ink my love may still shine bright.

LXVI

 * Tired with all these, for restful death I cry

LXXI

 * No longer mourn for me when I am dead Then you shall hear the surly sullen bell Give warning to the world that I am fled From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell: Nay, if you read this line, remember not The hand that writ it; for I love you so That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot If thinking on me then should make you woe.

LXXIII

 * That time of year thou mayst in me behold When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang Upon those boughs which shake against the cold, Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.

LXXXIII

 * I impair not beauty being mute, When others would give life, and bring a tomb.
 * There lives more life in one of your fair eyes Than both your poets can in praise devise.

LXXXIV

 * Who is it that says most, which can say more, Than this rich praise, — that you alone, are you?

LXXXVII

 * Farewell! thou art too dear for my possessing And like enough thou know’st thy estimate: The charter of thy worth gives thee releasing; My bonds in thee are all determinate.

XCI

 * And having thee, of all men's pride I boast: Wretched in this alone, that thou mayst take All this away and me most wretched make.

XCIV

 * They that have power to hurt and will do none, That do not do the thing they most do show, Who, moving others, are themselves as stone, Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow: They rightly do inherit heaven's graces

XCVII

 * How like a winter hath my absence been From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year! What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen! What old December’s bareness everywhere!

CI

 * Truth needs no colour, with his colour fixed; Beauty no pencil, beauty's truth to lay; But best is best, if never intermixed?
 * Because he needs no praise, wilt thou be dumb? Excuse not silence so, for't lies in thee

CII

 * My love is strengthen'd, though more weak in seeming; I love not less, though less the show appear; That love is merchandiz'd, whose rich esteeming, The owner's tongue doth publish every where.

CIV

 * To me, fair Friend, you never can be old, For as you were when first your eye I eyed Such seems your beauty still.

CVI

 * For we, which now behold these present days, Have eyes to wonder, but lack tongues to praise.

CVII

 * Not mine own fears, nor the prophetic soul Of the wide world dreaming on things to come, Can yet the lease of my true love control, Supposed as forfeit to a confin'd doom.

CVIII

 * What's in the brain, that ink may character, Which hath not figur'd to thee my true spirit?

CIX

 * For nothing this wide universe I call Save thou, my Rose; in it thou art my all.

CXV

 * Love is a babe, then might I not say so, To give full growth to that which still doth grow?

CXVI

 * If this be error and upon me prov'd, I never writ, nor no man ever lov'd.

CXXI

 * 'Tis better to be vile than vile esteem'd, When not to be receives reproach of being; And the just pleasure lost, which is so deem'd Not by our feeling, but by others' seeing

CXXVII

 * In the old age black was not counted fair, Or if it were, it bore not beauty's name

CXXIX

 * The expense of spirit in a waste of shame Is lust in action

CXXX

 * My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun; Coral is far more red, than her lips red: If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun; If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
 * I grant I never saw a goddess go, — My mistress, when she walks, treads on the ground:

CXXXII

 * Thine eyes I love, and they, as pitying me, Knowing thy heart torment me with disdain, Have put on black and loving mourners be, Looking with pretty ruth upon my pain.

CXXXIII

 * Beshrew that heart that makes my heart to groan For that deep wound it gives my friend and me! Is't not enough to torture me alone, But slave to slavery my sweet'st friend must be?

CXXXV

 * Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy 'Will,' And 'Will' to boot, and 'Will' in over-plus; More than enough am I that vex'd thee still, To thy sweet will making addition thus.

CXXXVIII

 * When my love swears that she is made of truth, I do believe her though I know she lies, That she might think me some untutor'd youth, Unlearned in the world's false subtleties.

CXLI

 * In faith I do not love thee with mine eyes, For they in thee a thousand errors note; But 'tis my heart that loves what they despise, Who, in despite of view, is pleased to dote.

CXLV

 * 'I hate', from hate away she threw, And sav'd my life, saying 'not you'.

CXLVI

 * Poor soul, the centre of my sinful earth, [Fool'd by] these rebel powers that thee array, Why dost thou pine within and suffer dearth, Painting thy outward walls so costly gay?

CXLVII

 * Past cure I am, now Reason is past care, And frantic-mad with evermore unrest; My thoughts and my discourse as madmen's are, At random from the truth vainly express'd;
 * For I have sworn thee fair, and thought thee bright, Who art as black as hell, as dark as night.

CXLVIII

 * O! how can Love's eye be true, That is so vexed with watching and with tears? No marvel then, though I mistake my view; The sun itself sees not, till heaven clears.

CL

 * If thy unworthiness rais'd love in me, More worthy I to be belov'd of thee.

CLI

 * Love is too young to know what conscience is, Yet who knows not conscience is born of love?

CLII

 * For I have sworn thee fair; more perjur'd I, To swear against the truth so foul a lie!

CLIV

 * Love's fire heats water, water cools not love.

title: The Sonnets


text:
Eleanor Farjeon

Eleanor Farjeon (13 February 1881 – 5 June 1965) was an English author of children's stories and plays, poetry, biography, history and satire.

Quotes

 * It’s no use crying over spilt evils. It’s better to mop them up laughing.
 * Gypsy and Ginger (1920)

Pan-Worship and Other Poems (1908)

 * Dowloadable Epub & PDF at Google Books - Download at Internet Archive

Ring'd all about with green melodious reeds Swaying seal'd music up and down the wind. Here on its time-defaced pedestal The image of a half-forgotten God Crumbles to its complete oblivion.
 * In Arcady there lies a crystal spring
 * Pan-Worship

To deities he honoured and dethroned! Earth shoots a trail of her eternal vine To crown the head that men have ceased to honour.''' Beneath the coronal of leaf and lichen The mocking smile upon the lips derides Pan's lost dominion; but the pointed ears Are keen and prick'd with old remember'd sounds. All my breast aches with longing for the past! '''Thou God of stone, I have a craving in me For knowledge of thee as thou wert in old Enchanted twilights in Arcadia.'''
 * '''O evanescent temples built of man
 * Pan-Worship

Of pleasures know I many — I rove beneath the sun Without a single penny.'''
 * '''Of troubles know I none,
 * Vagrant Songs, II

For Love, the vine that round your base Its tendrils twines, and dares to climb And lay one flower-capped spray in grace Without the asking on your cold Unsmiling and unfrowning face.
 * Old sundial, you stand here for Time:
 * Time And Love

This vine will flourish still, as rare, As fresh, as fragrant as of old. Love will not crumble.
 * Upon your shattered ruins where
 * Time And Love

And brought you one step nigher death; And you have heard, unthrilled, unmoved, The music of Love's golden breath And seen the light in eyes that loved. '''You think you hold the core and kernel Of all the world beneath your crust, Old dial? But when you lie in dust, This vine will bloom, strong, green, and proved. Love is eternal.'''
 * Dropt tears have hastened your decay
 * Time And Love

Nursery Rhymes of London Town (1916)

What shall we do? His Purple Robe Is rent in two!
 * King's Cross!
 * King's Cross

Is ringing its bell With a ring-a-ding-dong, All day long
 * The little White Chapel
 * Whitechapel

There isn't a drop for a mile and a quarter! The ground is so hard and the ground is so dry I'm frightened my little red rose-bush will die.
 * Water, Loo! water, Loo! fetch me some water!
 * Waterloo

They barely touch the cobble-stones with their nimble feet!
 * In Fleet Street, in Fleet Street, the People are so fleet
 * Fleet Street

More Nursery Rhymes of London Town (1917)

His reach is wide as wind is, He can pick you nettles in Greenwich Marsh And docks in the East Indies.
 * Bugsby's reach is long as time,
 * Bugsby's Reach

Went over Snowdon Mountain, From Anglesey to Swansea Bay It sang like any fountain.'''
 * '''My harp and I a-wandering
 * The Welsh Harp

Jerry, turn about and plant a garden in the City!
 * Out upon you, Jerry! Jerry, you're a pity!
 * The Garden City

Once with a tear — O where's the heart was in my breast, And the ring was in my ear?
 * Once she kissed me with a jest,
 * Kentish Town

Martin Pippin in the Apple Orchard (1922)

 * Full text online

 * Romance gathers round an old story like lichen on an old branch. And the story of Martin Pippin in the Apple Orchard is so old now — some say a year old, some say even two. How can the children be expected to remember?

 * Every man's life (and … every woman's life), awaits the hour of blossoming that makes it immortal … love is a divinity above all accidents, and guards his own with extraordinary obstinacy.

 * No love-story has ever been told twice. I never heard any tale of lovers that did not seem to me as new as the world on its first morning.

 * I will fight for you, yes, and you will fight for me. And if you have sacrificed joy and courage and beauty and wisdom for my sake, I will give them all to you again; and yet you must also give them to me, for they are things in which without you I am wanting. But together we can make them.

 * 'In love there are no penalties and no payments, and what is given is indistinguishable from what is received.' And he bent his head and kissed her long and deeply, and in that kiss neither knew themselves, or even each other, but something beyond all consciousness that was both of them.

 * He loved her, both for her fault and her redemption of it, more than he had ever thought that he could love her; for he had believed that in their kiss love had reached its uttermost. But love has no uttermost, as the stars have no number and the sea no rest.

 * Of what use to destroy the children of evil? It is evil itself we must destroy at the roots.

 * Women are so strangely constructed that they have in them darkness as well as light, though it be but a little curtain hung across the sun. And love is the hand that takes the curtain down, a stronger hand than fear, which hung it up. For all the ill that is in us comes from fear, and all the good from love.

 * The world never knows, and cannot for the life of it imagine, what this man sees in that maid and that maid in this man. The world cannot think why they fell in love with each other. But they have their reason, their beautiful secret, that never gets told to more than one person; and what they see in each other is what they show to each other; and it is the truth. Only they kept it hidden in their hearts until the time came. And though you and I may never know why this lane is called Shelley's, to us both it will always be the greenest lane in Sussex, because it leads to the special secret I spoke of.

Morning Has Broken (1931)

 * This poem was set to music and became a widely used hymn and became further popularized by the performance of Cat Stevens on his album Teaser and the Firecat (1971) · Performance by Cat Stevens (1976)

Like the first morning, Blackbird has spoken Like the first bird.''' Praise for the singing! Praise for the morning! Praise for them springing Fresh from the Word!
 * '''Morning has broken,

Praise every morning, God's re-creation Of the new day!'''
 * '''Praise with elation,

The New Book of Days (1961)

Pegasus sprang. His hoof of heaven Like melody rang.'''
 * '''From the blood of Medusa
 * Pegasus, St. 1, p. 181

His nostrils were caves. His mane and his forelock Were musical waves. He neighed like a trumpet. He cooed like a dove. He was stronger than terror And swifter than love.
 * His tail was a fountain.
 * Pegasus, St. 2, p. 181

He could not be bought, His running was rhythm, His standing was thought; With one eye on sorrow And one eye on mirth, He galloped in heaven And gambolled on earth.''' And only the poet With wings to his brain Can mount him and ride him Without any rein, '''The stallion of heaven, The steed of the skies, The horse of the singer Who sings as he flies.'''
 * '''He could not be captured,
 * Pegasus, St. 3 & 4, p. 181

Quotes about Farjeon

My most earnest wish is that there may be many minds and imaginations among the American people who will be able to share that pleasure with me. For every one who finds delight in this book I can claim as a kindred spirit.
 * I was a little overworked. I had been reading a great number of manuscripts in the preceding weeks, and the mere sight of typescript was a burden to me. But before I had read five pages of Martin Pippin, I had forgotten that it was a manuscript submitted for my judgment. I had forgotten who I was and where I lived. I was transported into a world of sunlight, of gay inconsequence, of emotional surprise, a world of poetry, delight, and humor. And I lived and took my joy in that rare world, until all too soon my reading was done.
 * J. D. Beresford, in the Introduction to Martin Pippin in the Apple Orchard (1922)

 * I was touched and surprised when, one day in her eighties, she said a little sadly, yet with the confidence of one who can face her own limitations, "I have always tried to use what little talent I had to the full". This remark had to do with the statement in the preface to Silver-Sand and Snow, … that – "In my youth I dreamed of being a 'real' poet, but half way through my life that dream died, and whatever figments of it remained went into writing songs and verses for children."
 * Annabel Farjeon, her niece, as quoted in "SPOTLIGHT: It's Eleanor Farjeon's birthday!" (13 February 2013) by Kate Forsyth

She was given the last rites by her priest and died on June 5th. Eleanor was buried in the romantic little churchyard which spans the side of Hampstead Hill between the Protestant church in Church Row and the Catholic church in Holly Walk. Her grave is generally smothered by a big rambler rose and is hard to discover. She was never keen on personal publicity.
 * Although her voice was faint she could still joke, for one day taking my hand she felt a large ring, which she raised close to her face for inspection. With a faint smile she whispered, "Ah, like Edith Sitwell I see."
 * Annabel Farjeon, her niece, on her last days, in Morning Has Broken : A Biography of Eleanor Farjeon (1986), p. 289

 * Great Britain has blessed the world of children with a number of poets and storytellers. … But perhaps no one was more loved by children in the British Isles or published more books than Eleanor Farjeon. She once said that she was "singing songs before she could write, and even before she could speak, and as soon as she could guide a pencil she began to write them down." When she died in 1965 at the age of eighty-four, she had published more than eighty books of stories and poems for children.
 * J. Ellsworth Kalas, in All Creation Sings : The Voice of God in Nature (2010), Ch. 12 : Eden Every Morning

Farjeon subtitled her poem "For the First Day of Spring." I suspect that the inspiration came to her on such a day, and I agree that it is a perfect way to enter that lovely season. But the wonder of the poem, of course, is that on such a day the poet found herself transported to the first days of creation. … So it is that I recommend Farjeon's poem not only for the first day of spring, but as the right way to begin every day. What better than to look out on a new day — any new day — as an unspoiled gift from the hand of God, "fresh from the Word"? … One wonders if Farjeon expected children to get it? Personally, I am confident she did. '''She wasn’t one to talk down to her readers, nor was she one to underestimate their capacities. I suspect she knew that what children lack in intellectual training they make up for in innate perceptiveness — and perhaps especially in their refusing to let literalism get in the way of reality.''' We adults lose our appetite for Eden. After so many battles with the real world, as we experience it, we find it hard to imagine that things can be perfect. So it is that a child can sing "Sweet the rain's new fall, / Sunlit from heaven," while adults calculate what the rain will do for market futures or for the prospects of this afternoon's ball game. I remember a summer morning nearly half a century ago. As I returned from a walk, I picked up an earthworm from the sidewalk and took it to my then four-year old daughter, who couldn't have a dog because the parsonage was next door to the church. "I've got a pet, I've got a pet!" she squealed. I wouldn't trade ten seconds of childish ecstasy for a full day of adult disillusionment. '''Eleanor Farjeon was quite right to tell children that the first day of spring is a return to Eden and this blackbird that sings is "like the first bird." And she was more than right in thinking that children would get it.'''
 * No doubt she wrote "Morning Has Broken" for children, since they were so surely her preferred audience, but it is as engaging a piece of theology as one is likely to find. … the quality of the day has a head start for me if the worship includes Farjeon's poem/hymn.
 * J. Ellsworth Kalas, in All Creation Sings : The Voice of God in Nature (2010), Ch. 12 : Eden Every Morning

 * An author is known by the worlds he creates. The measure of his greatness is the degree of clarity and the consistency with which he builds his spirit’s habitation, the depth and height it offers the reader who enters it. Eleanor Farjeon’s world is construed of fantasy, romance, and an abounding yea-saying joy in the experience of life. It is the stuff that dreams are made of, and as dangerous as dynamite except for those who have genius in their blood, a compassionate heart, a sense of wonder at the multitudinous miracles to be met in one day’s living in this world, and the blessed proportion of wit, humor and nonsense. All these she has.
 * Frances Claire Sayers, in "Eleanor Farjeon’s Room with a View" in The Horn Book (October 1956)

title: Eleanor Farjeon