text:
User:Maveric149

wikipedia:en:user:maveric149

/sandbox

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Maveric149


text:
User:Bdesham

Hi, I'm Benjamin Esham or Bdesham. I'm not on Wikiquote much, so check out my user page at the English Wikipedia.

title: User:Bdesham


text:
John Cage

John Cage (September 5, 1912 – August 12, 1992) was an American composer. A pioneer of chance music, electronic music and non-standard use of musical instruments. Cage was one of the leading figures of the post-war avantgarde and, in the opinion of many, the most influential American composer of the 20th century.

Quotes of John Cage

 * chronologically arranged, after date of the quotes of John Cage

1930s

 * I can't speak or write German, but I'am overjoyed because I have bought one of your pictures. Now it is in me. I write music. You are my teacher.
 * Quote from his letter to Jawlensky, early Februari 1935; as cited in 'The shape of the Future 3: Art' in Where the Heart Beats: John Cage, Zen Buddhism, and the Inner Life of Artists, by Kay Larson, Penguin 2012, p. unknown
 * Cage bought one of the small 'Head' paintings of Jawlensky, via his art-agent Galka E. Scheyer who showed Cage some paintings of Jawlensky early 1935, and sold his choice very cheap for 25 dollars; Cage was then 25 years old and strongly inspired by images, as he told Scheyer and wrote Jawlensky

 * Wherever we are, what we hear is mostly noise. When we ignore it, it disturbs us. When we listen to it, we find it fascinating. The sound of a truck at fifty miles per hour. Static between the stations. Rain. We want to capture and control these sounds, to use them not as sound effects but as musical instruments. Every film studio has a library of "sound effects" recorded on film. With a film phonograph it is now possible to control the amplitude and frequency of any one of these sounds and to give to it rhythms within or beyond the reach of the imagination. Given four film phonographs, we can compose and perform a quartet for explosive motor, wind, heartbeat, and landslide.
 * Quote of John Cage, in: 'The Future of Music: Credo' (1937); in: 'Silence: lectures and writings by Cage, John', Publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, V.

 * I believe that the use of noise to make music will continue and increase until we reach a music produced through the use of electrical instruments which will make available for musical purposes any and all sounds that can be heard. Photoelectric, film and mechanical mediums for the synthetic production of music will be explored.
 * Quote of John Cage, in: 'The Future of Music: Credo' (1937); SILENCE 3-4

 * ...WHEREAS, IN THE PAST, THE POINT OF DISAGREEMENT HAS BEEN BETWEEN DISSONANCE AND CONSONANCE, IT WILL BE, IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE, BETWEEN NOISE AND SO-CALLED MUSICAL SOUNDS.
 * THE PRESENT METHODS OF WRITING MUSIC, PRINCIPALLY THOSE WHICH EMPLOY HARMONY AND ITS REFERENCE TO PARTICULAR STEPS IN THE FIELD OF SOUND, WILL BE INADEQUATE FOR THE COMPOSER, WHO WILL BE FACED WITH THE ENTIRE FIELD OF SOUND.
 * Quote of John Cage, in: 'The Future of Music: Credo' (1937); SILENCE; lectures and writings by Cage, John', Publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, CREDO/3

 * The composer (organizer of sound) will be faced not only with the entire field of sound but also with the entire field of time. The 'frame' or fraction of a second, following established film technique, will probably be the basic unit in the measurement of time. No rhythm will be beyond the composer's reach.
 * NEW METHODS WILL BE DISCOVERED, BEARING A DEFINITE RELATION TO SCHOENBERG'S TWELVE-TONE SYSTEM
 * In: 'The Future of Music: Credo' (1937); in: 'Silence: lectures and writings by Cage, John', Publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, 4/SILENCE

1940s

 * I have nothing to say/ and I am saying it/ and that is poetry/ as I need it.
 * "Lecture on Nothing" (1949)

 * We need not destroy the past. It is gone.
 * "Lecture on Nothing" (1949)

 * I remember loving sound before I ever took a music lesson. And so we make our lives by what we love.
 * "Lecture on Nothing" (1949)

 * A finished work is exactly that, requires resurrection.
 * Quote of John Cage from Forerunners of Modern Music (1949), first published in the New York journal A Tiger's Eye, later collected in Silence.

1950s

 * I imagine that as contemporary music goes on changing in the way that I'm changing it what will be done is to more and more completely liberate sounds from abstract ideas about them and more and more exactly to let them be physically uniquely themselves. This means for me: knowing more and more not what I think a sound is but what it actually is in all of its acoustical details and then letting this sound exist, itself, changing in a changing sonorous environment.
 * 1952, quoted in Classic Essays on Twentieth-Century Music, ISBN 0028645812

 * A sound does not view itself as thought, as ought, as needing another sound for its elucidation, as etc.; it has not time for any consideration--it is occupied with the performance of its characteristics: before it has died away it must have made perfectly exact its frequency, its loudness, its length, its overtone structure, the precise morphology of these and of itself.
 * 1955, quoted in Classic Essays on Twentieth-Century Music, ISBN 0028645812

 * Until I die there will be sounds. And they will continue following my death. One need not fear about the future of music.
 * Quote of "Experimental Music", John Cage (1957)

 * Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school? Are the people inside the school musical and the ones outside unmusical?
 * "Communication", the third of the Composition as a Process lectures, John Cage gave in Darmstadt in 1958 and published in Silence.

 * David Tudor and I went to Hilversum in Holland to make a recording for the Dutch radio. We arrived at the studio early and there was some delay. To pass the time, we chatted with the engineer who was to work with us. He asked me what kind of music he was about to record. Since he was a Dutchman I said, 'It may remind you of the work of Mondrian.' When the session was finished and the three of us were leaving the studio, I asked the engineer what he thought of the music we had played. He said, 'It reminded me of the work of Mondrian.'
 * Quote from 'Lecture on Nothing', (c. 1949), in 'Silence: lectures and writings by John Cage; Publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, p. 127
 * this lecture had been prepared some years earlier, but was not printed until 1959, when it appeared in 'It Is', ed. Philip Pavia

1960s

 * So it was that I gave about 1949 my 'Lecture on Nothing' at the Artists' Club on Eighth Street in New York City (started by Robert Motherwell), which predated the popular one associated with Philip Pavia, Bill de Kooning, et al. ). This 'Lecture on Nothing' was written in the same rhythmic structure I employed at the time in my musical compositions (Sonatas and Interludes, Three Dances, etc.) . One of the structural divisions was the repetition, some fourteen times, of a single page in which occurred the refrain, 'If anyone is sleepy let him go to sleep.' Jeanne Reynal, I remember, stood up part way through, screamed, and then said, while I continued speaking, 'John, I dearly love you, but I can't bear another minute.' She then walked out. Later, during the question period, I gave one of six previously prepared answers regardless of the question asked. This was a reflection of my engagement in Zen.
 * Quote in: 'Silence: lectures and writings by John Cage'; publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, Foreword/ix

 * At Black Mountain College in 1952, I organized an event that involved the paintings of Bob Rauschenberg, the dancing of Merce Cunningham, films, slides, phonograph records, radios, the poetries of Charles Olson and M. C. Richards recited from the tops of ladders, and the pianism of David Tudor, together with my 'Juilliard lecture', which ends: 'A piece of string, a sunset, each acts.' The audience was seated in the center of all this activity. Later that summer, vacationing in New England, I visited America's first synagogue, to discover that the congregation was there seated precisely the way I had arranged the audience at Black Mountain.
 * Quote in: 'Silence: lectures and writings by John Cage'; publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, Foreword/ix

 * Critics frequently cry 'Dada' after attending one of my concerts or hearing one of my lectures. Others bemoan my interest in Zen. One of the liveliest lectures I ever heard was given by Nancy Wilson Ross at the Cornish School in Seattle. It was called Zen Buddhism and Dada. It is possible to make a connection between the two, but neither Dada nor Zen is a fixed tangible. They change; and in quite different ways in different places and times, they invigorate action. What was Dada in the 1920's is now, with the exception of the work of Marcel Duchamp, just art. What I do, I do not wish blamed on Zen, though without my engagement with Zen.. .I doubt whether I would have done what I have done. .  .I often point out that Dada nowadays has in it a space, an emptiness, that it formerly lacked. What nowadays, America mid-twentieth century, is Zen?
 * Quote in 'Silence: lectures and writings by Cage, John', Publisher Middletown, Conn. Wesleyan University Press, June 1961, x/SILENCE

1980s

 * I certainly had no feeling for harmony, and Schoenberg thought that that would make it impossible for me to write music. He said, 'You'll come to a wall you won't be able to get through.' I said, 'Well then, I'll beat my head against that wall.' I quite literally began hitting things, and developed a music of percussion that involved noises.
 * Quote from an interview in Observer magazine (1982), repeated on several occasions

 * There is one term of the problem which you are not taking into account: precisely, the world. The real. You say: the real, the world as it is. But it is not, it becomes! It moves, it changes! It doesn’t wait for us to change.. .It is more mobile than you can imagine. You are getting closer to this reality when you say as it 'presents itself'; that means that it is not there, existing as an object. The world, the real is not an object. It is a process.
 * Quote in 'John Cage, For the Birds: John Cage In Conversation with Daniel Charles', London/New York: Marion Boyars, 1981; as quoted in: 'Tàpies: From Within', June ─ November, 2013 - Presse Release, Museu Nacional d’Art de Catalunya (MNAC ),  p. 17, note 10

 * Art's purpose is to sober and quiet the mind so that it is in accord with what happens.
 * 1982, quoted in John Cage Visual Art: To Sober and Quiet the Mind, ISBN 1891300164

 * I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
 * Quoted in Richard Kostelanetz (1988) Conversing with Cage

 * Value judgments are destructive to our proper business, which is curiosity and awareness.
 * Quoted in Richard Kostelanetz (1988) Conversing with Cage

 * As far as consistency of thought goes, I prefer inconsistency.
 * Quote from an interview by John Corbett (1989)

1990s

 * When I hear what we call music, it seems to me that someone is talking. And talking about his feelings, or about his ideas of relationships. But when I hear traffic, the sound of traffic — here on Sixth Avenue, for instance — I don't have the feeling that anyone is talking. I have the feeling that sound is acting. And I love the activity of sound.. .I don't need sound to talk to me.
 * Quote of Cage, in an interview with Miroslav Sebestik, 1991; in Listen, documentary by Miroslav Sebestik. ARTE France Développement, 2003; as quoted on Wikipedia, note 54

 * They say, 'you mean it's just sounds?' thinking that for something to just be a sound is to be useless, whereas I love sounds just as they are, and I have no need for them to be anything more than what they are. I don't want them to be psychological. I don't want a sound to pretend that it's a bucket or that it's president or that it's in love with another sound. I just want it to be a sound.
 * Interview in documentary "Listen" (1992)

 * What I'm proposing, to myself and other people, is what I often call the tourist attitude - that you act as though you've never been there before. So that you're not supposed to know anything about it.  If you really get down to brass tacks, we have never been anywhere before.
 * as quoted in "Musicage: Cage Muses on Words, Art, Music", January, 1996; ISBN 0819563110

 * I once asked Aragon, the historian, how history was written. He said, 'You have to invent it.' When I wish as now to tell of critical incidents, persons, and events that have influenced my life and work, the true answer is all of the incidents were critical, all of the people influenced me, everything that happened and that is still happening influences me.
 * Quote of John Cage: the first lines of his 'Autobiographical Statement', April, 1990

 * We are living in a period in which many people have changed their mind about what the use of music is or could be for them. Something that doesn't speak or talk like a human being, that doesn't know its definition in the dictionary or its theory in the schools, that expresses itself simply by the fact of its vibrations. People paying attention to vibratory activity, not in reaction to a fixed ideal performance, but each time attentively to how it happens to be this time, not necessarily two times the same. A music that transports the listener to the moment where he is.
 * Quote of John Cage: the last lines of his 'Autobiographical Statement', April, 1990

Quotes about John Cage

 * sorted chronologically, by date of the quotes about John Cage

 * John Cage ...once told me, ‘When you start working everybody is in your studio – the past, your friends, enemies, the art world, and above all, your own ideas – all are there. But as you continue painting, they start leaving, one by one, and you are left completely alone. Then, if you are lucky, even you leave.
 * Quote by Philip Guston, quoted speaking on 'The Philadelphia Panel', transcribed in It Is, no.5, Spring 1960. pp.36–8.

 * I'm especially interested in the music of John Cage.. ..I would like to do some experimenting with the relationship between his freeform sound and [my] free-form art.
 * Quote by Jasper Johns, quoted in John Adds Plaster Casts To Focus Target Paintings, Donald Key, Milwaukee Journal, 19 June 1960, pt. 5, p. 6

 * The rise of music that is totally without social commitment also increases the separation between composer and public, and represents still another form of departure from tradition. The cynicism with which this particular departure seems to have been made is perfectly symbolized in John Cage's account of a public lecture he had given: "Later, during the question period, I gave one of six previously prepared answers regardless of the question asked. This was a reflection of my engagement in Zen." While Mr. Cage's famous silent piece [i.e. 4′33″], or his Landscapes for a dozen radio receivers may be of little interest as music, they are of enormous importance historically as representing the complete abdication of the artist's power.
 * Quote of Michael Steinberg, 1962, in Tradition and Responsibility. Perspectives of New Music 1, 1962, 154–159; as quoted on Wikipedia, note 103

 * Object in/ and space – the first impulse may be to give the object – a position – to place the object. (The object had a position to begin with.) Next – to change the position of the object. – Rauschenberg's early sculptures – A board with some rocks on it. The rocks can be anywhere on the board. - Cage's Japanese rock garden – The rocks can be anywhere [within the garden]..
 * Quote by Jasper Johns, in Book C (sketchbook), c. 1970; as quoted in Jasper Johns, Writings, sketchbook Notes, Interviews, ed. Kirk Varnedoe, Moma New York, 1996, p. 70

 * Once, I made a kind of sculpture of a flag in bronze: it was an edition of three, I think. One of them was given on some occasion to President Kennedy. I became very upset that this was happening. It was given on Flag Day! (he laughs). It seemed to me to be such a terrible thing to happen. I complained bitterly to my very good friend John Cage. He said: "Don't let it worry you. Just consider it as a pun on your work". (he laughs).
 * Quote by Jasper Johns, quoted in Jasper Johns Interviewed/ Jasper Johns interviewed Part II, Peter Fuller, Art Montly, London, August/September 1978

 * I met Cummingham around 1953 after a performance I saw. He was teaching and making dances for his company and was already working with John Cage. What interested me initially wasn't just the movement but also the music he worked with, which was unfamiliar to me.. .Later Bob Rauschenberg had been doing sets and costumes for the Cunningham Company..  .I can't say exactly how, but for a period of time, Cage, Cunningham, Rauschenberg, and I saw each other frequently and exchanged ideas. John [Cage] was very interested in presenting his ideas to other people, so it was impossible to be around and not to learn.. .He could apply his ideas on space and time to painting, or music or architecture..  ..I don't have a clear sense of cause and effect in my painting, but it is probably there.
 * Quote Jasper Johns, quoted in Jasper Johns, by Bryan Robertson and Tim Marlow, Tate, in 'The Art Magazine', London, Winter 1993, pp. 40, 47

 * Cage's Music of Changes was a further indication that the arts in general were beginning to consciously deal with the 'given' material and, to varying degrees, liberating them from the inherited, functional concepts of control.
 * Quote of Earle Brown, quoted in Classic Essays on Twentieth-Century Music, ISBN 0028645812, December 1996

 * John Cage and I became interested in the use of chance in the 50's. I think one of the very primary things that happened then was the publication of the I Ching, the Chinese book of changes, from which you can cast your fortune: the hexagrams.
 * Quote of Merce Cunningham, in A Lifetime of Dance, 2000

 * Cage took it to work in his way of making compositions then; and he used the idea of 64 — the number of the hexagrams — to say that you had 64, for example, sounds; then you could cast, by chance, to find which sound first appeared, cast again, to say which sound came second, cast again, so that it's done by, in that sense, chance operations. Instead of finding out what you think should follow — say a particular sound — what did the I Ching suggest? Well, I took this also for dance.
 * Quote of Merce Cunningham, in A Lifetime of Dance, 2000

 * I'm just back from Halberstadt (a 20+ hour journey), having attended the ceremonious 13th note change in the hyperdurational sounding of John Cage's Organ2/ASLSP. This is the last note change to occur for seven long years, so it was particularly well attended. The image above is my vantage point -- being among the last to enter the church, I was really only able to watch the proceedings via the many cell phones held above the heads of hundreds of compatriots. (The presence of so much technology in so hallowed a space is, well, jarring.)
 * Quote of the blog of Laura Kuhn, Executive Director of the John Cage Trust

title: John Cage


text:
User:Jimregan

See Wikipedia user page

In keeping with the spirit of WikiQuote, here's my favourite .plan quote, from the twisted mind of my friend Peter:

Plan: To rid the world of criminal scum.

To achieve this, I will need * A faithful sidekick * A hated arch enemy * A near fatal weakness

Other quotes from the 'net:

 * "A one-question geek test. If you get the joke, you're a geek: Seen on a California license plate on a VW Beetle: 'FEATURE'..."
 * -- Joshua D. Wachs - Natural Intelligence, Inc.

 * "If ignorance is bliss, is omniscience hell?"

Slashdot comments on Bill Gates' 2003 Comdex talk (which featured him and Balmer in a Matrix spoof)

 * "gates is smith! did you see the market share that guy had by the end of the series?"
 * Frymaster (171343) http://slashdot.org/%7EFrymaster

 * "Longhorn would have to be the Matrix code, constraining humanity and the problem is choice: which MS don't want people to have.

Plus, the Matrix is due for a critical crash, hmm the parrallels are endless..."
 * T-Kir (597145) http://slashdot.org/%7ET-Kir

As Switch. One of the Nebuchadnezzar crew that got killed really early on the first movie and was promptly forgotten about forever."
 * "And starring the Tablet PC...
 * Nailer (69468) http://slashdot.org/%7ENailer

Morpheus: Unfortunately no one can be told what the Matrix is. Neo: Why? Morpheus: My tablet PC just crashed."
 * "Neo: What is the Matrix?
 * FrostedWheat (172733) http://slashdot.org/%7EFrostedWheat

 * "I can't wait...

For the part where Agent Linux burns Bills eyes out and then he finally can see all the Linux everywhere..."
 * greenskyx (609089) http://slashdot.org/%7Egreenskyx

title: User:Jimregan


text:
User:Camembert

Since I missed the beginning of the Wiktionary, I decided to get an early start with this one.

My en: Wikipedia user page

title: User:Camembert


text:
Talk:Irish proverbs

Is it acceptable to put the Irish version in with a translation? A lot of Irish proverbs translate roughly to common English language proverbs, but have some difference in the exact translation.

Like "Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir" (Time is a good story teller) can basically comes down to "Time will tell" or as a "the older the wiser" kind of statement, and both "Níor bhris focal maith fiacail riamh" (A good word never broke a tooth) and "Ní hé lá na báistí lá na bpáistí" (A rainy day is not a day for children) play on the similarity in the sound of the words: "focal" and "fiacal", "báistí" and "bpáistí" -- Jimregan 01:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Judging from the main page, the intention is that Wikiquote be multilingual, so yeah, go for it, I say. --Camembert

 * OK, done. I've omitted meanings for those whose meaning I though apparent from the translation. -- Jimregan

The quote should be in its own language and hence a translastion, but there should be different languge version of wikiquote. eg http://fr.wikiquote.org

"Is fearr an tsláinte ná na táinte."

* Translation: "Health is better than wealth."

Standardised punctuation
I've gone through the article and standardised the punctuation. All proverbs now follow this form:

"Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile." (Irish; full stop at end.)
 * Translation: "One beetle recognises another." (Quoted; space after colon; full stop within quotes at end-- within quotes as it is a full sentence quoted.)
 * Meaning: It takes one to know one. (Space after colon; full stop at end).
 * Similar: Like sees like. (As for Meaning).

I've added a few "Similars" which others may disagree with. I hope at least you think the punctuation is better being consistent. SimonTrew 19:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Don't have time to do it now, but I think "Meaning" is the wrong phrase to use in some cases – it should say something like "English equivalent" – for some, if you weren't already familiar with the English proverb, it hasn't really been explained to you. 194.80.29.68 13:39, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced
NOTE: These quotes need to be sourced before moving them back to the page.

A

 * "Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile."
 * Translation: "One beetle recognises another."
 * Meaning: It takes one to know one; Like sees like.

 * "An rud is annamh is iontach."
 * Translation: "What is seldom is wonderful."

 * "An té is lú eolais is é is mó a labhraíonn."
 * Translation: " whoever has the least information, speaks the most."

B

 * "Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach."
 * Translation: "The Power fellow will have another day."
 * Meaning: "We'll live to fight another day."

 * "Bíonn grásta Dé idir an diallait agus an talamh."
 * Translation: "The grace of God is found between the saddle and the ground."

 * "Bíonn adharca fada ar na ba thar lear"
 * Translation: "Cattle in faraway lands have long horns"
 * Meaning: The grass is always greener on the other side

 * "Bíonn ciúin ciontach"
 * Translation: "The quiet are guilty"

 * "Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír"
 * Translation: "There is hope from the sea but no hope from land"
 * Meaning: The land, here, is the grave. If someone is lost at sea, you can go on hoping, but if they are buried all hope is gone.
 * Alternative version: "Bíonn dúil le béal farraige ach cha bhíonn dúil le béal uaighe".
 * Meaning: "There is hope from the mouth of the sea, but none from the mouth of the grave"

 * "Briseann an dúchais trí shúile an chait"
 * Translation: "Breeding will break out in the eyes of a cat."
 * Meaning: The true nature of someone's character is revealed through their eyes.

C

 * "Cailín ag Mór agus Mór ag iarraidh déirce."
 * Translation: "Mór has a maid and yet Mór has to beg."
 * Meaning: One must keep up appearances.

 * "Cad a dhéanfadh mac a' chait ach luch a mharú?"
 * Translation: "What else would the cat's son do, except kill a mouse?"
 * Meaning: Like father - like son.

 * "Ceileann searc ainimh 's locht."
 * Translation: "Love is blind."

 * "Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde."
 * Translation: "Beware of the anger of a patient man."
 * Meaning: The longer it takes to break a man's patience, the more powerful his wrath will be.

D

 * "Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi..."
 * Translation: "A woman told me that a woman told her..."
 * Meaning: Don't believe everything you are told. It may be just gossip.

 * "Caoire uain i bhfad..."
 * Translation: "A lamb becomes a sheep with distance..."
 * Meaning: It may start off light, but over time it will get heavier..

G

 * "Gaoth na scrataí Bothair"
 * Translation: "The wind of a thousand chills"
 * Meaning: An easterly wind so cold that could whip the hair off your head

 * "Goiontacht bothair mor poll abhaile dubh ."
 * Translation: "A travelers foot is at home in a pothole."
 * Meaning: A pothole that could blacken the legs off a horse.

I

 * "I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin."
 * Translation: "It is one after another that the castles are built."
 * Meaning: Rome wasn't built in a day.

 * "Is binn béal ina thost."
 * Translation: "A silent mouth is sweet."
 * Meaning: Silence is golden.

 * "Is bé carnæ clúas cách."
 * Translation: "Everyone's hearing is a harlot."
 * Meaning: O. Ir. version of the legal rule against hearsay.

 * "Is cuma nó muc duine gan seift."
 * Translation: "A shiftless person is the same as a pig."

 * "I scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine."
 * Translation: "People live in each other's shadows."

 * "Is fearr an tsláinte ná na táinte."
 * Translation: "Health is better than wealth."

 * "Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste."
 * Translation: "It is better to have broken Irish than clever English." - a reference to the language.

 * "Is í ding di féin a scoileann an dair."
 * Translation: "It is a wedge of itself that splits the oak."
 * Meaning: Beware of the enemy within.

 * "Is iad na muca ciúine a itheann an mhin."
 * Translation: "It's the quiet pigs that eat the grain."
 * Meaning: It's those who are quiet that you don't suspect.
 * Similar: "It's always the quiet ones."

 * "Is iomaí slí muc a mharú seachas a thachtadh le h-im."
 * Translation: "There are many ways of killing a pig other than by choking it with butter."
 * Meaning: There's more than one way to do something - usually, more simply.
 * Similar: "There are more ways to kill a cat than choking it with cream."

 * "Is leor don dreoilín a nead."
 * Translation: "The nest is enough for a wren."
 * Meaning: Home is where the heart is.
 * "Is leor nod don eolach."
 * Translation: "A hint is sufficient for the wise."
 * Similar: "A nod is as good as a wink [to a blind horse]."

 * "Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir."
 * Translation: "Time is a good story teller."
 * Meaning: Only time will tell

 * "Is maith an scáthán súil charad".
 * Translation: "A friend's eye is a good mirror."
 * Meaning: A friend will tell you how it is (the truth).

 * "Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón."
 * Translation: "It's often a person's mouth that breaks their nose."
 * Meaning: Watch what you say—it can hurt you!

 * "Is minic an fhírinne searbh."
 * Translation: "The truth is often bitter."

 * "Is trom Cearc i bhfad."
 * Translation: "A hen is heavy over a long distance."
 * Meaning: Something apparently easy may become difficult over a long period of time.

M

 * "Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad."
 * Translation: "A light heart lives longest."

 * "Pós bean ón sliabh agus pósfaidh tú an sliabh."
 * Translation: "Marry a woman from the mountain and you'll marry the mountain."
 * Meaning: You cannot be in a relationship without accepting a person's friends, family, and past affiliations.

 * "Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh siad."
 * Translation: "Praise the youth and they will come."
 * Meaning: Young people learn more from compliments than criticism.

 * "Molann an obair an fear."
 * Translation: "The work praises the man."
 * Similar: Good work is its own reward.

 * "Is maith an rud é go dtéann na bóithre i gCiarraí as Ciarraí."
 * Translation:"Its a good thing that the roads in Kerry go out of Kerry."
 * Meaning: If you live in Kerry, you'll be glad there's a way out.

 * "Is maith an t-anlann an t-ocras."
 * Translation:"Hunger is the best sauce."
 * Alternative: Hunger is the best spice.
 * Meaning: If you're hungry, everything tastes good.

 * "Marbh le tae agus marbh gan é."
 * Translation:"Dead with tea and dead without it."
 * Meaning: Caught between two bad options, in a Morton's Fork.

N

 * "Ní bhíonn saoi gan locht"
 * Translation: "There's no wise man without fault"
 * Note:In Hiberno-English, this is rendered as "There doesn't be a wiseman without fault". The use of "does be" tries to express the present continuous tense (or present habitual tense) which exists in Irish but not to the same extent in English.

 * "Ní dhíolann dearmad fiacha."
 * Translation: "A debt is still unpaid, even if forgotten."

 * "Ní hé lá na báistí lá na bpáistí."
 * Translation: "A rainy day is not a day for children."
 * (A pun: báistí and bpáistí sound alike).
 * Meaning: There's a good and a bad season for every job.

 * "Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scoilb."
 * Translation: "A windy day is not a day for thatching."
 * Meaning: There's a good and a bad season for every job.

 * "Ní huasal ná híseal, ach huas seal agus híos seal."
 * Translation: You are neither a highly esteemed person nor a lowly esteemed one, but up for a while and down for a while.

 * "Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin."
 * Translation: "There's no hearth like your own hearth."
 * Meaning: There's no place like home.

 * "Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn féin."
 * Translation: "There's no sore ass like your own sore ass."
 * This is a pun reversing the syllables from the phrase before.

 * "Nuair a bhíonn an t-ól istigh, bíonn an chiall amuigh."
 * Translation: "When the drink is in, the sense is out."
 * Similar: When the wine is in, the wit is out.

O

 * "Ólann an cat ciúin bainne leis."
 * Translation: "The quiet cat also drinks milk."
 * Meaning: Even those whom you believe not to do things, do them regardless.

T

 * "Tada gan iarracht."
 * Meaning: Nothing without effort.

 * "Tús maith leath na hoibre."
 * Meaning: A good start is half the work.

title: Talk:Irish proverbs


text:
Wikiquote talk:Templates/Archives/-2004

Meaning
I'm not sure the meaning part is such a good idea. With quotes that have explanatory background information, it'd be useful to mention that (historical context, etc.), but with most quotes I think it'd be amateurish and distracting. The whole beauty of quotes is that they express a meaning in a concise and appealing fashion; explaining them away would have the same detrimental effect as laboriously explaining a joke in detail. Not to mention that many quotes can be interpreted in numerous ways. --Delirium 03:20 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of "Meaning:", there could be "Notes:" which would include exactly that, and possibly a "see also" external link. -- Fagan

 * I agree with both of the above, and I think the Notes should be optional. There should always be a Source however, even if it is "Unknown" .Nanobug 17:01 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree completely. --Camembert

"Meaning" was never meant to be mandatory, and was just the best word I could think of at the time to put down for what I wanted. The point of "Meaning" was to explain what the proverb means, why the person said what he did. For instance: Nero's dying words to a person who nothing about him would not mean anything, but if tehy are told why he said it they know abit more abotu him. -fonzy

Moving quotes from Wikipedia to Wikiquote
Based on an alternative presented by User:Jdcope created a page for "Erwin Griswold" I have recently been editing a lot of pages in Wikipedia and adding a link to Wikiquote (for those articles that we have already). I have also been removing the quotes in Wikipedia and adding them to Wikipedia. A couple of Wikipedia editors have put them back, saying that not all quotes should be moved. (See the talk page on Saddam Hussein for example.) What do you think? Should we generally leave quotes in Wikpedia, or remove or duplication by moving them here, or sometimes leave one quote in Wikipedia which seems to typically define the person? Nanobug 02:37 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Usage of source
"Source:" seems to be being used in two way, firstly as when the person actually said the quote and secondly as the location where the quote is repeated. Perhaps we should seperate these two, perhaps using "Occasion:" or somesuch for the first. --Imran 16:37 22 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Proposed new people templates
See Talk:Main Page on What wikiquote's aims should be. Here is a suggested way of implementing authenticity (these were recently implemented in template {and changed a little since then, so don't use the ones below} but many articles need to be changed to match latest template):

Quotes by people:

=== Full Name (year born – year died) === occupation

==== Verified ==== * "Quote1." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Source: source of quote. ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

* "Quote2." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Source: source of quote. ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

==== Attributed ==== * "Quote3." (year said) ** Translileration: "Transliteration" ** Translation: "English translation" ** Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Which looks like this:

Full Name (year born – year died)
occupation

Verified

 * "Quote1." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

 * "Quote2." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Attributed

 * "Quote3." (year said)
 * Translileration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Notes: context, meaning (where it is not clear), etc.

Quotation marks
I don't really see the necessity of using quotation marks (") around the quotes. Everybody knows they're quotes, that's all that's here.  It looks like a cleaner layout to me without them. - Hephaestos 15:19 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree, they do seem superfluous. Anybody have a good reason for keeping them? Nanobug 18:31 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * See Quotation marks where we voted on this issue and decided to keep the quotation marks.

Transliteration
After reading Talk:Russian proverbs, and checking Wikipedia, it seems I was wrong in thinking that the meaning of the word transliteration was "literal translation", i.e. a translation into English that literally translated each word into English, rather than the overall meaning of the sentence which (not necessarily literal) translations often are. It is actually more a transcription of letters in one language into the "equivalent" letters of another language. (If I summarized the meaning incorrectly, please adjust accordingly.)

I included "(literal translation)" after the notes about transliteration in the template, which possibly confused others (and which I have just removed). I am not sure, but several of the "transliterations" on various pages appear to actually be literal translations instead.

So if there was both a literal translation and a more liberal translation, we could list the first one under "Translation:", and the second one as "Alternative translation:", or perhaps just "Alternative", or "Alternate"? e.g.

Verified

 * "Quote1." (year said)
 * Transliteration: "Transliteration"
 * Translation: "English translation"
 * Alternative: "Alternative Translation"
 * Source: source of quote.
 * Notes: context, clarification (where it is not clear), etc.

What do you think? Nanobug 01:53, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Default new page text
What do people think about making one of the templates (perhaps the person one) as the default text that appears when you start editing a new page ? --Imran 22:17, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * Is that even possible? (Wikipedia doesn't seem to have default new page text, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.) If it is possible, then I agree, although it should have a note saying something like See Template for other pages such as literary works. Nanobug 02:16, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes it is possible. The text that used to appear in the textboxes if there had been no edit there before was "(There is currently no text in this page)". - fonzy

How about the following: Template/default --Imran

Theme
How about the Theme is organised into subthemes (see Death for an example of what I mean)? -- Gaurav 15:55, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Leave off "Note: "?
Can we leave off the "Note: " at the beginning of the note lines? I think it looks really ugly (Peer Gynt), and the fact that it's a note should be obvious. Paullusmagnus 19:01, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

List of people by occupations link in header
Can we not have the occupation linked to the appropriate section on the wikiquote list of people listed by occupation eg http://www.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_occupation, as well as or instead of a link to wikipedia definition of the occupation?

Steeev 17:07 19/11/2003

 * I think this is a good idea, as a better prompt for investigations of others in the categories, and of placing them within such listings. If there are no major problems with doing so, I support such a change. Kalki 17:28, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC) (It would require establishing a fairly standard list of occupations relatively soon, and it would probably be best to have a standard palette of templates for such links. I see it might be a bit more complicated, but would probably be more useful to most. People more familiar with the workings of the software should probably weigh in with their opinions on the matter before we go further with the idea.) -Kalki.

I have actually adopted this suggestion in an adjustment of the standard header style that I have used for a while now, and I will explain a few reasons why I think this form is preferable to the current official recommendation.

I use Mac OS X and have a utility called Typeit4me that when I type "wik" normally will paste a template that looks like this:

==• == ( - ) ''•
 * (I use "wikipedia:en:" rather than simply "en:" because I was informed some time ago that this will help to prevent possible future conflicts. I do not know if this is still the case, but have used the format since that time.)

From this I fill in the specific information about an individual. I find that this format allows for more extensive and convenient interlinking of the quote pages and the "List of occupations" page, allows the providing of a full birth and death date without overwhelming the main header line, and even allows for linking to specific sections of the occupation page if one adds an "#" and the header title from the List of people by occupation page, such as in this example using "List of people by occupation#Authors" to link directly to the section on Authors.

I have considered using a similar adaptation as a means of providing links from articles to sections of "Footnotes" or "Endnotes" or simply "Page notes" on the Talk pages of some articles, though I have yet to actually do so anywhere.

If no one has any objections or better suggestions, I might go ahead and change the recommended template for headers sometime in the next week or two. I invite your comments. ~ Kalki 19:10, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

See also?
Hooloovoo 11:42 2/1/2004

How about a 'See also:' when quotes by someone fall into a certain theme? There's a List of themes page already. Example from the William Gibson page I created.

 * "The NET is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it." (July 14, 1996)
 * Source: Name of article he wrote for 'New York Times Magazine'
 * See also: more quotes about the Internet

Original proverb
I am thinking there should be a:

 * Original:

... for proverbs since often they come from other languages. 65.92.241.69 19:35, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Quotes from literary works/Quotes by people: external wikibook link
Why Wikibooks - Name of Book or Play and not Wikisource - Name of Book or Play which seems much more appropriate for me because wikibooks only includes explained versions of books 80.143.246.58 15:37, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * That template was probably created before there was a "Wikisource" as it is a very recent addition to the Wikimedia projects. I agree Wikisource is a better place to link. —Kalki 18:02, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Quotes in the original language (not English) in italics?
I've read somewhere that this format should be applied and I think it is a good solution:

* "Beispiel Zitat" ** Translation: "example quote" ** Source: Books of examples

 * "Beispiel Zitat"
 * Translation: "example quote"
 * Source: Books of examples

Would it be okay if I add this to Template? 80.143.246.58 16:13, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * This seems to be the format that has been used by many already, and I am suprised it is not already listed. Go right ahead. —Kalki 17:53, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, Template mentions it under Notes:"Put non-English quotations in italics (but not the translations)." But an example won't hurt. 80.143.246.58 18:45, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dialog
As can be seen in some of the Television Shows pages, dialog can often be the source of interesting and/or humorous quotes. However, none of the Wikiquote guidelines seem to suggest formatting for dialog. In the pages I created (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Mystery Science Theater 3000, and Twin Peaks), I established some guidelines, but they're largely ad hoc and based primarily on my own opinions and Wiki experience, with nods to the existing Wikiquote guidelines where practical. I'd like to see some discussion from the Wikiquote community if possible. -- Jeff Q 08:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

 * By the way, I see the problem is not limited to TV shows. Just hopping through random pages, I found The Princess Bride (an excellent and quite quotable movie), whose page offers two variations on dialog, neither of which strikes me as tidy. The first:

 * Vizzini: "He didn't fall? Inconceivable!"
 * Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 * is buried amidst a whole set of identically-formatted quotes, preventing identification of this as a two-line quote. The second, used three times, follows this format:

 * Vizzini: "No more rhymes now, and I mean it!" Fezzik: "Anybody want a peanut?"

 * This counts on the entire dialog excerpt being very short, and still doesn't look pretty. (Actually, this last excerpt is even more of a problem, as the three consecutive examples are each paired, rhyming quotes, so they should go together, should be separated from the remainder of the quotes, and should more clearly arrange the text visually to demonstrate the rhyme.) Comments? -- Jeff Q 08:33, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Another example I ran across, from Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

 * 3 questions of the Bridgekeeper
 * "What is your name?"
 * "Sir Lancelot of Camelot."
 * "What is your quest?"
 * "I seek the grail."
 * … etc. This is fairly tidy and follows some existing practice. It's also much simpler than the formatting I used for my TV dialog quotes. Some disadvantages: it doesn't show who said what, nor the opportunity to click on speaker or character links, and it only works with two alternating speakers at a time. -- Jeff Q 09:21, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

There are a few other formats that have also been used on dialogs, and we probably should try to decide on a standard recommendation or range of suggestions, but as with many other things I don't think its necessary to lay down too many rules. ~ Kalki 18:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Some examples and discussion at Talk:Television shows. -- Jeandré, 2004-06-16t00:37z

"Post comment" formatting
Using the Post comment link on this page creates a standard Wiki == HEADING TITLE == section (using pairs of equals [=] characters). Unfortunately, that clashes with all the existing headings on this page, which have a === HEADING TITLE === format (using two equals triplets). I would suggest that either the Post comment code be changed, or the existing headings be updated to reflect standard Wiki practice. Otherwise, the Table of Contents gets messed up. -- Jeff Q 08:11, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I am currently attempting to update the headings on this page as you have suggested.  ~ Kalki 18:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

"Sourced:" rather than "Verified" as a header
When Jdcope created a page for "Erwin Griswold" a few weeks ago, I was immediately pleased with his use of Sourced rather than Verified as at section title. At the Village pump, and now here, I am proposing that the section title "Sourced:" rather than Verified be used as more appropriate for most of the quotes for which we might have cited sources, but not necessarily direct confirmational access to original materials. I have always thought "Verified" was too strong a term to use for statements that might easily be many times removed from their original sources, and think it should be dropped in favor of the less assertive designation. If no one objects or has better ideas, I will change the templates to reflect this after a week or two. ~ Kalki 18:01, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Database vs. pages
Would it not be better to have a database input form for quotes, instead of the current pages set-up? The form could have fields like:
 * Quote in language if not [language of this wikiquote]
 * Transliteration:
 * Quote in [language of this wikiquote]
 * Alternative
 * Person who wrote or said it
 * Date
 * Source
 * Notes
 * List of categories

Eg:
 * Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
 * Thomas Jefferson
 * 1801-03-04
 * First inaugural address, Washington, D.C., USA
 * freedom; government; politics
 * 1801-03-04
 * First inaugural address, Washington, D.C., USA
 * freedom; government; politics
 * freedom; government; politics

The quote can then be included on the person's page, an all the pages listed in the categories field. You can edit a quote instead of a page, pages will be automatically updated. Pages will be like the Category pages, wiki editable. Quotes could be rendered in a user specified style. - Jeandré, 2004-06-18t21:17z

title: Wikiquote talk:Templates/Archives/-2004