text:
Talk:Veronica Mars

Please see Veronica Mars/Format for formatting guidelines. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 11:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Vote for deletion notice
Thanks to everybody who rallied to its cause! — Jeff Q (talk) 04:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Size of page
This page is currently 157KB. The Buffy page is 291KB. VM had a season and a half, Buffy had 6.5 seasons: almost four time as much. Angel, having had 5 seasons, is just 64KB. This suggests, to me, that it might be wise to trim quotations a little, until more reasonable levels are reached (note that Buffy is the longest page here, and documents a looooong running seasons). Thanks ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 15:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Title corrections
As I write this, the episode titles in this article appear to have been taken from TV.com's episode listing, which disagrees with UPN.com's listing, which is presumably more authoritative. Both sources and this list have (different) irregularities in their punctuation, capitalization, and spelling practices, in that not one of them is completely consistent with any known official style. To complicate matters, Wikipedia has now implemented a List of Veronica Mars episodes that has yet a fourth set of inconsistent practices.

Because I'm obnoxiously detail-oriented, I'm going to update both WQ and WP's episode lists (and WP's corresponding articles) so that they adhere to two basic principles: Where these two conflict, the first will be followed unless there is compelling reason to believe the difference was an intentional alteration by the creative team and not just a typo on the part of the UPN web content creator. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) They will follow Wikipedia and Wikiquote's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling practices, which are identical.
 * 2) The title wording will follow UPN's list, on the assumption that it is most authoritative.

 * Jeff, your approach seems valid to me. I had also noticed the inconsistencies, but hadn't been able to find the time to figure out which was right. And since this page is actively worked by many, including you, I assumed it would be taken care of. I wholeheartedly support your rationale. ~ UDScott 14:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I was bold and did all the corrections, but I admit being troubled by two of them:
 * "The Return of Kane" vs. "Return of the Kane": UPN uses the former, but TV.com and IMDb (I just discovered) uses the latter. I was thinking it was supposed to be like The Return of Shane, but it might instead be a parallel to LOTR: The Return of the King.
 * "Kanes and Abels" vs. "Kanes and Abel's": Again, UPN disagrees with both TV.com and IMDb. It still trumps them, because TV.com is presumably not as close to the creators as UPN, and IMDb is known to have many errors of this sort, but UPN.com has its problems, too.
 * We could really use a Veronica Mars source better than UPN.com. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Though I'm not sure about "Return of the Kane," I'm fairly certain that it is "Kanes and Abel's." The title is referring to the Kane family and Abel's daughter - thus Kanes and Abel's. alliterator 12:23 3 February 2006

 * Actually, I've just looked at a few alternate sources (TWIZTV.com, Whoosh, and the official site) and each lists those particular episodes as "Return of the Kane" and "Kanes and Abel's". This includes the "official" WB site for the show, which I would consider a pretty reliable indicator. ~ UDScott 16:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I write for MarsInvestigations.net, whose titles are pretty much accurate. The only one I'm unsure about is "Ruskie Business" vs. "Russkie Business." MI.net has the first, but we've gone with the latter. alliterator 12:23 3 February 2006

A discussion at w:Talk:List of Veronica Mars episodes resulted in going with the titles "Return of the Kane", "Kanes and Abel's", and "Ruskie Business", based on agreement between two authoritative sources, the WB Veronica Mars site and the commercial DVD titles, mostly in contradiction with another authoritative source, UPN.com. (Unfortunately, none of them knows how to spell "Russkie", but if they wish to advertise their ignorance, that's their artistic privilege. ☺) The titles have already been corrected here as I write this, but I wanted to confirm this for readers. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Eliminating episode numbers
Per Wikiquote talk:Templates/TV shows, I would like to eliminate the episode numbers in the Veronica Mars ep titles to fix a number of current problems. Given the intense effort on the part of multiple editors here to keep the episode list current, I don't see that we really need the numbers, and this would allow direct links to WQ from the new Wikipedia VN episode articles. How do folks feel about this? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Custom table of contents
An anonymous user has created a malfunctioning custom table of contents for this article. This is worse than having the standard one, because it not only fails to provide proper links to all the sections, but also, in the carelessness of incomplete testing, practically guarantees that this problem will only worsen with an active show whose custom TOC needs regular updating. (This is the main reason why it's a bad idea to implement a custom TOC before a show ends its run.) Unless a registered user commits here on this talk page to maintain this TOC (or one like it) for now and the foreseeable future, I will revert this article to a standard table of contents. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

You will see that all of the links have been fixed, and with such a large number of people contributing to this page it stands to reason that it willl stay updated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.62.91.130 (talk • contribs) 17:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, 66.62.91.130, but there are still two links that aren't working, which you would have found if you had verified every single link as I already pointed out is a requirement for having these custom TOCs. It's not the number of editors contributing that matters; it's the need for at least one wiki-skilled editor to commit to properly maintaining the custom TOC. The fact that you've missed links even after having been told twice about this doesn't bode well. (It also doesn't help sponsor a feeling of participation that you haven't registered an ID. Users don't "own" IP addresses, so communicating with them on the IP talk page is problematic, and it is necessary for someone who commits to this level of maintenance to be easily and unambiguously reachable by the other editors who will inevitably ask why things aren't working right. I know because I've been through this on several different articles.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked all the links (again) and found one that wasn't working. I also cannot be responsible for problems in the TOC when someone else changes one of the headings.

 * 66.62.91.130, you are wrong on two counts:
 * First, you did not check all the links. You missed "Leave It to Beaver", which was incorrectly spelled "Leave it to Beaver". I discovered this with a 90-second test of every single link in the TOC, the same kind of test I perform on any article with a custom TOC. You have thoroughly demonstrated by now that, whatever you are doing when you test, it is not adequate to the responsibility of maintaining a custom TOC.
 * Second, although wiki editors are generally welcome to do whatever work they wish (and avoid what they don't), custom TOCs are not the same thing as other edits. They are sufficiently complex that anyone who implements them is implicitly accepting the responsibility not only to create them, but to maintain them. Just as editors involved in an article revert erroneous or improper edits to the article, so too are they expected to watch for changes to custom TOCs. But because they're so challenging to implement, only a few editors in a project the size of Wikiquote know how to do this. (This is why I haven't just volunteered to jump in and do this myself — I don't have the time to add this commitment to my own work. I'd hoped to goad you into learning how to do this correctly and committing to the effort. I have apparently failed to do either.)
 * I also note that, despite your substantial contributions to Wikiquote thus far (assuming you're only a single person and not a bunch of folks using the same IP address — we have no way of knowing), you have yet to register a username, so I could post helpful suggestions to your user talk page and avoid these more "public" criticisms. (I cannot fathom why somone would not register a username. I can learn more about you from your IP than from a well-chosen username, and we require no private information for registration, as even the email address is optional.) Neither have you learned to use edit summaries, which anyone watching the changes to articles (like someone taking responsibility for fixing complex problems) should know is a critical time-saving element. All by yourself, you are managing to make this article hard to maintain. If no one else steps up to the responsibility of properly maintaining this TOC, I will revert to a standard TOC in a week or so. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * As promised, with no volunteer to manage the custom TOC, I have restored the standard one. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 12:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

holy god
who the hell took the time to type all this shit up, seriously —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.251.140.128 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

 * "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." — a variation on a saying commonly attributed to Laozi (Lao-Tzu). The whole point of Wikimedia projects like Wikiquote is to make robust works possible by having millions of editors. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Names in Quotes
It lists the name beaver in the quotes, shouldn't it be "Cassidy" -Peachey88 09:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

 * You raise a good point. Usually, we use the names that characters are best known by; thus, it's always "Weevil", not "Eli". The "Cast" section gives the complete name to make connections clearer. (Please note, though, that it only exists to connect the characters with the actors. Explanations of relationships should be left to the corresponding Wikipedia articles, leaving Wikiquote articles devoted to quotes.)

 * But it occasionally happens that a dialog segment requires that some connection be made right there, else someone unfamiliar with the show would be confused. Consider the passage:

 * ["Amber is a bitch" has been keyed on Beaver's car.]
 * Veronica: Hey, Cassidy. Who's Amber?
 * Beaver: I have no idea.

 * The exchange implies Beaver is Cassidy, in much the same way a reader must deduce by context who is speaking in an unattributed exchange of quotes in a book. But you can add clarifying info to the context line to make this a bit clearer; e.g., "has been keyed on Cassidy's (Beaver's) car". (That's an awkward example because of the apostrophe-s, but you get the idea.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler quotes
I'm kinda new to this editing thing, and I've been too lazy to register an account thus far but I think i'll be doing that soon. Back to my question, I was wondering, for these quotes are you looking for ones that are memorable and humorous or ones that add to the storyline. OR is it just a mix of both and I should want try to leave it out the ones that give away the episodes plots? I really hope that makes sense...I'm looking for some guidelines I guess. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.187.75.78 (talk • contribs) 06:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry to have missed this question earlier. In general, we're looking for quotes that are memorable long after the story is told, not quotes that illustrate the storylines. Wikiquote is a collection of pithy quotes, not a quotation version of a plot summary. The difference can often be seen when fans want to quote critical moments in a show that bring plot points to a dramatic climax, but aren't really memorable words unless they invoke in your mind a scene that you've already watched. Someone who has never seen Veronica Mars should be able to appreciate whatever quality is exhibited by the quotes here. The only people who can appreciate plot points are ones who have seen the show. I hope this helps to clarify things a bit. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

quote
i think it was the mars, bar episode where Keith finds a gun and asks veronica about it, i think we should quote veronicas reply about vengeance but i no longer have the episode to do it, can someone else? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.119.126 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Too many quotes
While I know it may be difficult to limit the number of quotes per episode for this show, it certainly appears that we have way too much here to escape possible copyright issues. We really need to trim the number of quotes per episode to single digits at least. This page is now one of the largest on Wikiquote and serious attention to this is needed. ~ UDScott 20:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Article could use some trimming here and there, otherwise it's mostly good. MatthewFenton 13:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I have restored the checkcopyright tag that Matthew removed, as this article doesn't even come close to being within our goal of 3-8 quotes maximum per episode. (That's every single episode, not average, as each episode is a copyrighted work.) The purpose of the flag is to get people to do the "trimming". Otherwise someone will swoop in and do massive deletions, or else the entire article be replaced with a copyvio tag, which would require it be rewritten from scratch. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I like quotes. I don't know much about the copyright issue of quotes - btw the comlete transcript of the show can be found somewhere on the Web, and it makes it much easier for me to watch the episodes (I'm German and I doubt they ever publish the series in German). However, there are too many quotes here. A lot of them are nice to read but not outstanding, and not really funny unless you've seen the show and remember what the situation was. And it's quite a lot to read... So I suggest 3-5 quotes per episode (as done on Wikipedia) plus perhaps a few background information about each quote. -- 21:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I have trimmed the quotes for season 1 (will continue working on the others when I can). Please try to keep this page in a reasonable condition. ~ UDScott 12:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Season 2 has now also been trimmed. ~ UDScott 15:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Season 3 is also now complete - I will remove the copyright tag. ~ UDScott 16:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Split the article up
Maybe we should think about putting season 1 and 2 on separate, because it would reduce the page size (length and KB size) and easier to manage as well. 59.167.214.31 08:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.167.214.31 (talk • contribs) 08:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I think not. Editors of this article have not demonstrated any interest in keeping the amount of quotes down to a non-copyright-violating set, like 3-8 per episode. Splitting up the article will only encourage this problem. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible Vandal
In the Debasement Tapes section and i think theres a tinny bit in the I Know What You'll Do Next Summer section. Peachey88 01:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you be more specific? On a quick check I didn't see anything that jumped out at me.  Also a perusal of the history shows no changes to those sections for months. -- Greyed 01:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * EG: Peachey88 12:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

BlackKat70: [to Piz] Advice: Never meet your idol. Desmond Fellows: More advice: Always confirm the accuracy of photos.

[Mac and Veronica are getting lunch] Mac: Is the eggplant good? Spaghetti server: It's okay. Mac: How about that stuff? Spaghetti server: It's good. Mac: It's probably horrible for you, right? I'll stay with the eggplant. No, wait - what do you think? [pause] I need to see a psychiatrist. Veronica: I was thinking more an English professor. What we're dealing with her is an absurd level of symbolism. [to server] Two lasagnas. Spaghetti server: Okay. Mac: Symbolism? Veronica: I mean, the Bronson Parmigiana is good for me, but, ooh! The Maxuccine looks awfully tempting. Mac: It's not my fault Max won't stop calling. Like you should talk. Veronica: Me? I'm not ordering good boy while wishing I ordered bad boy. Mac: No, you gave up bad boy, but keep asking for samples of good boy. Veronica: No, I - wait, what? Mac: Okay, if Logan is the fettucine... [cellphone rings] Veronica: It's the eggplant.

Desmond Fellows: [to Veronica] Anyone ever tell you, you look like a feisty young Barbara Eden?

Desmond Fellows: The bad boys get all the chicks. I mean, look at you, Pez. You're single, and you're very nice. There's a correlation.

(although i'm not quite sure about this one) Kizza: I'm looking for detective Mars. Veronica: I'm detective Mars. Kizza: But you're just a girl. You're a teenager. Veronica: A girl, a teenager, and a private detective - I'm a triple threat. Barely fits on my business card.

Please do not call material that you simply believe is in error "vandalism". Vandalism has a very specific meaning here — an obvious defacement of a page with material that is clearly not part of the subject matter. The vast majority of inaccurate quotes are added or changed by your fellow Wikiquotians in good faith, often operating from memory (just as you appear to be doing). Having added quite a few quotes to this article myself, I can assure you that none of this is vandalism, and all of it sounds rather plausible. (I distinctly remember some of these dialogs myself, although I can't vouch for the exact content. But my own testimony is nothing compared to a proper review of the epsiode to confirm the material.)

We welcome any suggestions of changes (which you can do yourself, if you believe these to be either inaccurate or otherwise not worthy of inclusion), but please assume good faith of all editors whenever possible. If you have any questions about this, I'd be happy to discuss this with you on my talk page. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not talking about the material as such but as the names in the section, i can definetly say that "Spaghetti server" was never a character within the show. Peachey88 03:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, look at the dialogue and you'll see that it fits. They're in a restaurant and are talking to the person who takes their order and serves their food.  A server or, if it's a spaghetti joint, a spaghetti server.  Could probably be shortened to server and not lose anything but I don't think that is vandalism.  Not sure about the character names of the other two.  It's been a while since I watched  Veronica Mars.  But with a character who's name is "Pez" I doubt "Kizza" is out of line.  I'll double check when I have more time. -- Greyed 03:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

 * More specifically, the IMDb entry on "Debasement Tapes" lists the minor character who served the food being discussed in the quoted scene (in the university cafeteria, as I recall) as "Spaghetti Server", making this an accurate attribution. (Our style, like IMDb's, is to captalize roles as proper nouns, so I've tweaked the article to reflect this.)

 * Some quotes, like this, feature characters who are not regulars. Whoever contributed this quote was right to use the published "name". It's perfectly fine, too, to raise an objection if you believe there is an error. But calling it "vandalism" is unnecessarily accusatory, especially when, as Greyed suggests, the context makes this plausible.

 * There are instances where editors have made prank edits that also may seem plausible but are incorrect. Even if something appears in retrospect to be a malicious edit, we try to assume good faith unless we have compelling evidence to the contrary (like a string of edits from the same username or IP that are blatantly malicious). This promotes better cooperative working, which is vital on a project like this where it's impossible to really know your fellow editors. Please consider this in the future. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Veronica Mars


text:
User talk:Deiryassin

Thank you for your comment on Votes for deletion. It is quite helpful, thank you. And would you like to give a look to our Local embassy? I am very interested in promoting multilingualism on this project! Cheers, --Aphaia 16:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Deiryassin


text:
User talk:Piotrus

Hi, Piotrus, I hope you enjoy Wikiquote! Would you like to introduce some useful pages? Be bold and enjoy! --Aphaia 16:45, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Reference desk - question on quotes
 * Village pump - same as Wikipedia:VP ;-)
 * Oops, sorry for typo .... (fading, aph.)

 * Please stop adding unsourced quotes to articles — unsourced quotes and sections have been gradually removed, and new additions are not encouraged. Unsourced quotes as suggestions for sourcing can go on the talk pages. ~ Kalki 18:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

title: User talk:Piotrus


text:
Ralph Nader

Ralph Nader (born 27 February 1934) is an American political activist, author, lecturer, and attorney, noted for his involvement in consumer protection, environmentalism and government reform causes.

Quotes

 * This administration is not sympathetic to corporations, it is indentured to corporations.
 * Quoted in a news conference (3 October 1972), speaking on the Nixon Administration; reported in The Washington Post (4 October 1972), p. A2.

 * The large organization is lord and manor, and most of its employees have been desensitized much as were medieval peasants who never knew they were serfs.
 * Ralph Nader, "The anatomy of whistleblowing" (1972), in Nader, Petkas, and Blackwell (eds.), WhistleBlowing: The Report of the Conference on Professional Responsibility, New York: Grossman Publishers, as quoted in Erik Mygind du Plessis, Speaking Truth through Power.

 * The 1963 Corvair, which has some remarkable characteristics. It's one of the few cars I know that can do the bossa nova on dry pavement and the watusi on wet.
 * Ralph Nader, An Unreasonable Man (2006) Documentary film

 * Khalil Bendib is an equal-opportunity skewer. The more a subject or victim is ignored by the mass media, the more he infuriates, informs, and intensifies the reader's attention. Cartoons need to jolt. Bendib obliges page after page.
 * Mission Accomplished by Khalil Bendib (2007)

 * The hardest thing in life is to face reality when you grow up being educated by myths
 * Policy Talks@Google (2008)

 * Hillary Clinton has completed her four-year tenure as Secretary of State to the accolades of both Democratic and Republican Congressional champions of the budget-busting “military-industrial complex,” that President Eisenhower warned about in his farewell address. Behind the public relations sheen, the photo-opportunities with groups of poor people in the developing world, an ever more militarized State Department operated under Clinton’s leadership.A militarized State Department is more than a repudiation of the Department’s basic charter of 1789, for the then-named Department of Foreign Affairs, which envisioned diplomacy as its mission. Secretary Clinton reveled in tough, belligerent talk and action on her many trips to more than a hundred countries. She would warn or threaten “consequences” on a regular basis... As reported in the Wall Street Journal on December 10, 2011, “In place of the military, the State Department will assume a new role of unprecedented scale, overseeing a massive diplomatic mission through a network of fortified, self-sufficient installations.” To call this a diplomatic mission is a stretch. The State Department has hired thousands of private security contractors for armed details and transportation of personnel. Simply guarding the huge U.S. embassy in Iraq and its personnel costs more than $650 million a year – larger than the entire budget of the Occupational Health and Safety Agency (OSHA), which is responsible for reducing the yearly loss of about 58,000 lives in workplace-related traumas and sickness.
 * Militarizing the State Department, by Ralph Nader, CounterPunch, February 8, 2013

 * ... the only difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush is the velocity with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
 * quoted in American Character: A History of the Epic Struggle Between Individual Liberty and the Common Good (2015)

 * Politics does not bother corporate power. Whoever wins, they win. Both parties represent Wall Street over Main Street. Wall Street is embedded in the federal government.
 * As interviewed by Chris Hedges in "Welcome to 1984," May 14, 2016

 * This could be the most serious event in American political history. Because you're no longer dealing with a rural government where most of the the workers were postmen, like in the nineteenth century. You're dealing with an unstable personality who takes everything personally in terms of a bruised ego, has stated again and again that he'll lash back even if he has to get up at 3 A.M. and twitter about an overweight former Miss Universe ... and he's got his finger on the nuclear trigger, or on drones, or on, you know, aircraft carriers.
 * Ralph Nader, "This Could Be the Most Serious Event in History", The Big Picture RT (7:02 of 12:57), Nov. 9, 2016

 * Many Senate Democrats are throwing in the towel on the nomination of William Barr for Trump’s attorney general. One would think that Senate Democrats would be appalled at Barr’s long-time unyielding conduct and writings asserting that the President can start any wars he wants even if Congress votes against it! An example of this is the constitutionally undeclared criminal invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush. Barr was also George H.W. Bush’s Attorney General and has been a long-time defender of executive branch lawlessness. One would think that Barr’s insupportable drive for more corporate prisons and more mass incarceration would upset these Senators... Expect the further decay of a Department of Injustice, shielding a chronically lawless President and turning the rule of law on its head.
 * Ralph Nader in Democrats may be surrendering the rule of law, Alternet  (19 January 2019)

 * “This is clearly the most dangerous political movement since the Civil War, the GOP under the corporate fascist Trump’s thumb. He spread a whole breed of mini-Trumpsters who are getting far too much publicity compared to their opponents. Everything we fought for, for over 50 years, is at stake here...This is an order of magnitude we have never seen before. We have never seen a party literally trying to repress the vote, miscount the vote, purge the vote, intimidate precinct worker volunteers and steal elections. They have actually basically said, ‘Any election we lose is because it has been stolen from us.’ That is the word of a dictatorship party.”
 * quoted in "Ralph Nader Tells Democrats: Crush the GOP" by Amy Goodman & Denis Moynihan (2022)

 * [These leaders]... chose higher ethical behavior, declining to avail themselves of the routine excuses about duty to shareholders, competitive riskiness, government regulation or other pretexts most executives employ (...) Each of the CEOs profiled here displayed forthright candor, competence, and a recognition of the complexities of society that shape the bottom line. Most of the CEOs I’ve met ... are afraid to share their views candidly. These twelve spoke out. They endorsed politicians. They spoke out against injustice in a variety of ways, sometimes to their own detriment. They held controversial views. They were not going to leave their conscience at home when they went to work. Part of their vision was to be complete human beings. These CEOs were willing to admit their mistakes in public. They provided a climate of self-correction. This is something most big CEOs never do, under advice of their corporate law firms.(...) The more you look into them, the more they reveal what successful CEOs should be about within the norms and standards of a civilized society.
 * Ralph Nader Profiles 12 Leaders Who Did It Right In The Rebellious CEO, Alain Hunkins, Forbes, (14 November 2023)

Green Party presidential candidacy speech (2000)

 * February 21, 2000

 * ...the Democratic and Republican parties, two apparently distinct political entities feeding at the same corporate trough.

 * Up against the corporate government, voters find themselves asked to choose between look-alike candidates from two parties vying to see who takes the marching orders from their campaign paymasters and their future employers. The money of vested interest nullifies genuine voter choice and trust.

 * The "democracy gap" in our politics and elections spells a deep sense of powerlessness by people who drop out, do not vote, or listlessly vote for the “least worst” every four years and then wonder why after every cycle the “least worst” gets worse.

Crashing the Party (2002)

 * Like knowing hostages, the AFL-CIO and its unions march in tandem to endorse the Democratic presidential nominees early in the primary season. They have given up their capacity for negotiation, so frightened are they of the Republicans. Meanwhile, the rank-and-file workers suffer their dwindling status in silence.

 * ...organized labor...rushes to support the party without demanding a turn away from corporatism toward workers’ needs. This is the logic of the lesser of two evils. It tethers labor to a relentless slide deeper into the corporate power pits year after year.

 * ...the Democrats know that no matter how many GATTs, NAFTAs, empty OSHAs, and other betrayals...they heap on those labor leaders, they can be had because, once again, the Republicans are deemed worse.

 * The tired whine of 'But the Republicans are worse' will fall flat as more young Americans take charge of their future and move, with their reenergized elders, toward the Green Party and parallel civic and political movements.

The Good Fight (2004)

 * We must strive to become good ancestors.

 * The shortcomings of America's political leaders do not stop at our borders.

 * Unlike members of Congress, Big Business knew what the WTO agreements contained. That's because corporate lobbyists helped draft them.

 * Half of democracy is about just showing up.

Breaking Through Power (2016)

 * : It's Easier Than We Think

 * [T]he concentration of power in the hands of the few is common to all cultures... When a small group of people rules a society the political system is considered an oligarchy; when only money and wealth determine how a society is controlled, the political system is a plutocracy. From the standpoint of a democratic society, both oligarchy and plutocracy are inherently unjust and corrupt. ...In many ways, the majority of Americans live in a democracy of minimums, while the privileged few enjoy a plutocracy of maximums. ...[T]he dominating influence of the One Percent...

 * [F]amily functions have been outsourced to business... everything is for sale, and money is power... Our elections and our governments should be... commercial-free zones; our environment, air, and water should never fall under the control of corporations or private owners. Children should not be programmed by a huckstering economy...

 * [W]henever there have been periods when enough of the country organizes and resists, we see movements of people and communities breaking through power. Progress is made. Rights are won. Education and literacy increase. Oppression is diminished.

 * Concentrated power in the hands of the few really... matter[s]... if you are denied full-time employment or paid poverty wages and there are no unions to defend your interests... if you are denied affordable health care... if you are gouged by the drug industry... lack of public transit or packed highways... if you or your children... breath dirtier air and drink polluted water... if your children are receiving substandard education... are being taught to obey rather than question, think and imagine, especially when it comes to the nature of power.

 * In addition to stimulating the economy, creating more jobs, and establishing less need for public welfare assistance, the movement for a... living wage... teaches how little it... takes to change the balance of power... especially when there is overwhelming public opinion... These lessons... should be, applied to winning the myriad of public interest, ecological, and civil rights struggles that the ultra-rich and their commercial interests obstruct... increasing wages... decreasing militarism and crushing... military spending... decent and affordable housing and healthcare, reducing... carbon emissions... to prevent catastrophic climate change... enabling democracy at all levels.

 * America's Founding Fathers wrote a Constitution that never once uses the words "corporation," "company," or "political parties." Their use of language reflected their antipathy toward the domineering influence of empire and big business... If "We the People" are the sole subjects of the Constitution, why is it that we are ruled by large corporations and their largely indentured servants—the Republican and Democratic Parties... "We the People" have allowed these plutocratic forces to slowly siphon away our power.

 * Before and after the American Revolution, there has been a continuing daily tension between contending private commercial pursuits and common civic values. ...[T]he obsessive drive for gold, money, and profit is a formidable deviation from other more important spiritual practices that strive to center community on non-market values... love, generosity, kindness, cooperation, and non-violence.

 * America's business leaders said NO to the idea of revolting against the British monarchy. ...In later decades, commercialists... consistently said NO to efforts to end child labor... to starting labor unions... to the regulation of railroad and banking abuses... to the 40-hour work week and progressive taxation... to antitrust laws and the regulatory agencies... to a woman's right to vote (they feared the women's vote against exploiting child labor and cheating consumers), and NO to the minimum wage, Social Security, universal healthcare, and to... protect the environment, empower consumers, reduce government secrecy, protect ethical whistleblowers, and... to reduce commercial fraud on the government as with Medicare and military contracts.

 * [P]ublic interest groups, consumer protection organizations, and... social networks have worked relentlessly to break through the battalions of lobbyists paid by corporate interests...

 * Exxon/Mobile, Pfizer, Citigroup, General Motors, Lockheed/Martin, Proctor & Gamble, United Health Care, Comcast/NBC Universal, Apple, and many other giants garner revenues as large as numerous nation states... Most are global... but there is no public global government holding them accountable... [T]here are dictatorial trade agreements that corporatists conjure up to subordinate the general population's labor, consumer, and environmental protections—a stunning end-run around our courts and legislatures. These protections are seen as "non-tariff trade barriers"... [T]hese... entities have a clear and obsessive unity of purpose—money for bosses... for shareholders, money to buy lawyers and politicians to take down laws and whatever else slows the pace of hoarding wealth.

 * Paradoxically, we are in a golden age of books, documentaries, and films that... expose the abuses, crimes and authoritarian essence of corporate commercialism. ...[N]ever ...have they had less impact for change.

 * One of my all-time favorite "shake 'em up books," which is almost impossible to describe briefly, is Sam Smith's Great American Political Repair Manual.

"American Mythology and the Loss of Democracy" (2018)

 * Interview with with Chris Hedges, from RT America (June 23, 2018); source

 * Here we are in corporate occupied territory, otherwise known as Washington D.C. ...I've seen it ...become a very sophisticated expression of the plutocracy ...[Y]ou have the plutocracy ruled by a few wealthy, developing an ever more penetrating oligarchy ruled by a few politicos, indentured to the super-wealthy. ...With their corporate attorneys they have developed one of the most sophisticated controls of a formerly democratic society... turning the very institutions, Congress, the courts, the executive branch, against the people... What they do is simply keep the myths alive, like "We have Democratic elections." We do not.

 * Democratic elections require that votes are supreme, not big-money. They require contested candidacies, not a two-party duopoly that increasingly reflects the same commercial interests.

 * They say we have a free press, but we do not. We have a press that is indentured to advertising revenue, and they themselves are now conglomerate corporations... and five big ones control most of the circulation and viewership...

 * They say we have a free... independent judiciary, but... on the big questions of abuses of power, like going to war without congressional declaration... which is a requirement under out Constitution (and we have not had a declaration of war since 1941...) The courts have a very convenient doctrine. It's called, "This is a political question, invading Iraq, and we don't deal with political questions. This is to be decided between the Congress, which abdicates its duty, and the Presidency"... When citizens say "We don't believe in that. We're going to go to court," and go all the way to the Supreme Court to challenge this illegal war of criminal aggression against Iraq, they have another convenient doctrine... "You have no standing to sue." So all the American People have no standing to sue..? Well, who has a standing to sue... dealing with a criminal war of aggression... with all... who have died? Well, who has standing to sue? Only one person. The Attorney General, and guess who his boss is, the President.

 * [W]e have all these myths... about a Democratic society... [W]e have been disintegrating our Democratic institutions for over 40 years.

 * [A] phony standard... from Medieval England... says that you are thrown out of court if you don't have a specific interest... that usually now means an economic interest... a corporation that might lose sales, for example.

 * It only takes one percent or less of The People... mobilized in every Congressional District... say three or four thousand [out of an average Congressional District population]... [A]s long as they represent a majority opinion... they can control the Congress against any vested interest. We used to do it on far less... regulating the auto industry, getting through the Freedom of Information Act, which was opposed by... almost every corporate trade association, because they didn't want government information on them available to the public.

 * We don't need huge numbers of people. We need about one percent... spending three to five hundred hours a year, connecting with each other, opening full-time offices in every Congressional District, and focusing on just five-hundred and... thirty-five people... in the U.S. Congress... the branch that has the most power under our Constitution.

 * We have 206 law schools in the country. You would think they are the first responders to challenge the criminal injustice system, conditions in the prison, violation of civil rights, crushing consumer rights, and the government being taken over by corporations. It's not happening. It's like they're training technicians... lawyers to serve the powerful interests.

 * Mike Pompeo is Secretary of State, a total warmonger, and... bigot against Arabs and Muslims, based on his own assertions when he was a member of Congress, and after that.

 * Lawlessness by the rich and powerful is the norm... Either they violate the law with impunity, or they make sure the law provides loopholes for them with their influence in Congress. ...They are extremists... [T]hey... have no conscience, no soul. The corporate entity is an artificial being driven maniacally by profit...

 * You really have to educate your [law] students about lawlessness, otherwise they're going to graduate and just tinker with the law... The law students are so clueless, in fact, deprived about what's going on in this country in terms of the concentration and the abuse of power... [W]e have a real crisis in the legal educational institutions that breed the next generation of lawyers.

 * [T]he lawyers are the architects of corporate power. They're the architects of grinding responsible government into the ground and turning it into an accounts receivable, corporate welfare, ... giving these corporations immunities and privileges which we would never have as real individuals. ...They are artificial... they cannot be morally accountable like real individuals... unshielded by the corporate structure.

 * A judicial coup in 1886... determined that corporations were persons, for the purpose of the Constitution. ...[T]he Constitution doesn't even have the word company, corporate, or political party in it. So why are we ruled by them? You see the distortion? The only persons recognized in the Constitution are real people. It starts... with "We the People" not "we the corporations."

"How The Rats Reformed The Congress" (2018)

 * (Sept 29, 2018) Interview & discussion with Ralph Nader on his book How the Rats Re-Formed the Congress (2018); source

 * It first starts with an intrepid rat... that goes up to the toilet bowl of the Speaker, just as he's sitting down to do his business... Some readers who couldn't get past the first few pages... called it disgusting and upsetting, and I said, "Well, you're describing the behavior of Congress..."

 * The rats then... follow each other. Ten rats signal to other rats, and there's a rat infestation in the House of Representatives, and then in the Senate... [T]here's an overreaction by the members, the leaders. They don't want this to get out, that they can't even control the rats, much less the Wall Street lobbyists.

 * [O]ne reporter... is intrepidly meticulous and he blows the story... [A]ll the cable shows, everybody goes wild with derision as the story unfolds... [T]he overreaction is massive slaughter of the rats. They keep coming. They keep breeding... working overtime... and that is what gets people's attention about Congress.

 * Congress comes in, in the poles, under 15% or 12%... or even 9% now... about the lowest of any category, even the proverbial used car dealer.

 * People have such a low opinion of Congress that they keep sending bad members... to Washington, but [the people] withdraw... they become cynical... instead of becoming angry and moving to take control of Congress. After all, it's the sovereign power of the people... that is misused and turned against the people on behalf of Wall Street and other corporate supremacists.

 * Because of the massive media, you have massive public attention, the comedians, the late night talk shows, have a field day... The activists say... "This is what we've been waiting for"... [politicians] fumbling and grumbling and tripping over themselves trying to deal with the rat infestation, asking for the national security people... on orders of the White House... like... a foreign invasion.

 * They would surround part of the Congress with bull horns and shout, "Resign! Resign! Resign!" ...Some of the incumbents ...just ran out of the Congress and joined the crowd.

 * One of the themes of the book is don't wait around... [with] steady mobilization. It doesn't work that way. It gives the corporation lobbies too much time to game the system. Look at the health care. It was proposed by Harry Truman in the 1940s, universal health care, and look where we're still at. ...Speed was of the essence.

 * In some... legislator's minds... like Mick Mulvaney... he really is mean, and he has no qualms of conscience. But I have met members of Congress... conservative Republicans, who do have qualms... John Boehner... the fictional character is Reginald Blamer, he came from a poor family of 11 children... so I have seen... people who have a public personae of ferocious oligarchy and plutocracy, but deep inside they know they're harming innocent people.

 * In the early 60s I wanted to get auto safety bills through the Congress, so I had to go to... ... [people said he was] totally in the pocket of the business lobbyists... Because of the rumble from the people... out of Seattle and other parts of the country, Warren Magnuson put his finger to the wind. ...He became the greatest champion of consumer legislation in the Congress in American history.

 * When Reginald Blamer, in the book, went on "Meet the Press" and was questioned by Woodcock Toad, known as "Woody..." [Blamer] revealed his better self. He basically became a more humane person from this jolting experience, and he feared that the majority of Republicans were going to vote him out... some have a soft core... and their better angels [are] revealed under different kinds of stress and pressure.

 * In the book, the appeal is to their fear glands... the fear of not getting re-elected. The fear of being challenged in a primary inside their own party... The greed glands were approached by the lobbyists, who tried to turn this mass movement of the people of our country to take control of Congress... They poured campaign money into their stalwarts...

 * American politicians over the past 25 years have learned to quietly dismiss big rallies, demonstrations, and even temporary occupations, because they have gone nowhere.
 * A quote from the book

 * I've been part of these mass protests... almost invariably on a Saturday, when the members of Congress are gone. ...The [organizers] ...are so exhausted that they don't... have the energy left to pass the funding buckets around... where they could raise hundreds of thousands of dollars and on Monday morning open an office with full-time lobbyists... Members of Congress have very good antennae... [they can sense that] there's no stamina... not a lot of follow-through.

 * [I]n this book... the rallies... are different... they build from day to day... and... it's led by people who are full-time... and they open offices in Washington. ...Three enlightened billionaires come to town and they say... "Hey, let's fund this"... and a brain trust.

 * Democracy requires work. ...The more they feel they've got the members Congress on the run, the more energized they become.

 * On the back of the book, I have the indictment of Congress. People... have no idea the damage... that Congress has inflicted. Its abandonment of its Constitutional powers as the most powerful branch of government. Its selling of elections for money and campaigns. Its closing out, even the people... I've seen Congress degrade to levels I've never believed possible. It's impossible to get through to some members'... offices even now, unless you're a campaign contributor. You might get the switchboard, if it isn't on voice-mail. Can you imagine..?

 * To show you how much of a straight-arm the majorities in Congress are giving the people back home. They had a tax bill... for the rich, and the powerful, and the corporate, increasing the deficit, starving the public works investment and all the rest, and they didn't even have public hearings in the committee level, that's unheard of. Then they had five bills to destroy people's rights to have their day in court, if they're wrongfully injured. They got it through the House of Representatives, blocked in the Senate by the Democrats. They didn't even have public hearings in the House Judiciary. Then they tried to get rid of Obamacare, and they lost by one or two votes in the Senate, and they didn't even have public hearings.

 * Congress... has become a secret tyrannical bastion of Wall Street, and that outrages people...

To the Ramparts (2018)

 * : how Bush and Obama paved the way for the Trump Presidency, and why it isn't too late to reverse course

 * My hope is that... I will open Democrats' and other progressives' eyes to the many values shared by the Left and Right... like the desire to end corporate welfare and convert to a renewable energy (solar) economy. ...the way to defeat Trump... is to embrace (not marginalize) issues such as raising the minimum wage. ...It is a question of do or just further fade away.

 * If the minimum wage of fifty years ago—$1.60 per hour—were adjusted for inflation, today it would amount to about $11 per hour. A long-overdue minimum wage hike would... end a decades-long windfall for employers... while [they were also] receiving many tax breaks and subsidies.

 * People are being pushed around, disrespected, defrauded, injured, and given the runaround by arrogant corporate bureaucrats using nameless, robotic, and tyrannical "fine print" contract barricades.

 * [E]stablish a public national complaint-handling system using the Internet to help consumers, taxpayers, and workers... It will also be a good way for policy makers to detect patterns. Patterns lead to deterrence...

Quotes about Ralph Nader

 * the legendary consumer advocate
 * Amy Goodman "Ralph Nader Tells Democrats: Crush the GOP" (2022)

 * Ralph Nader's Breaking Through Power is a brilliant analysis of corporate power and the popular mechanisms that can be used to wrest back our democracy
 * Chris Hedges, Breaking Through Power (2016)

 * I agree with Ralph Nader that we need to repeal NAFTA and all of those so-called free trade agreements, but they are — they don’t constitute fair trade. And with respect to Colombia, I can say that not only have I been to Colombia, I have seen the devastation of the militarization of our policy, particularly with Colombia, and the displacement particularly of the Afro-Colombian communities across that country.
 * Cynthia McKinney, Interview with Democracy Now (2008)

 * I'm voting for Ralph Nader -- even though I think he's an asshole on abortion and issues of sexual politics generally -- in the hope that the Green Party will get 5 percent of the vote...We have to break through the current end-of-history, "no real change can ever happen" mentality on every front, and the best way to do that on Tuesday is to vote for Ralph Nader.
 * Ellen Willis article (2000)

 * Imagine how the last presidential campaign would have turned out if instead of the marketing circus that we were treated to, we were just given a weekly round table discussion between Bush, Gore, and Nader for a couple months running up to the election. No staged rallies, no TV images with flags flowing in the sunset, no pollsters. No marketing. Bush would have been luck to get two percent.
 * Matt Wuerker, Attitude (2002)

 * There was a third-party candidate, Ralph Nader, whose national reputation came from decades of persistent criticism of corporate control of the economy. His program was sharply different from the two major candidates, emphasizing health care, education, and the environment. But he was shut out of the nationally televised debates during the campaign, and, without the support of big business, he had to raise money from the small contributions of people who believed in his program.
 * Howard Zinn, A People’s History of the United States

title: Ralph Nader


text:
Curtis LeMay

Curtis LeMay (November 15, 1906 – October 3, 1990) was a general in the United States Air Force and the vice presidential running mate of American Independent Party candidate George Wallace in the 1968 presidential election. During World War II, he was known for planning and executing a massive bombing campaign against cities in Japan and a crippling minelaying campaign in Japan's internal waterways. After the war, he initiated the Berlin airlift, then reorganized the Strategic Air Command (SAC) into an effective instrument of nuclear war. He served as Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force from 1961 until his retirement in 1965.

Quotes

 * Dear Rosy, In June Strategic Air Command had fourteen accidents. Eleven of the fourteen were in the Fifteenth Air Force. Do something. Sincerely, Curtis E. LeMay, Lieutenant General, USAF, Commanding.
 * From a letter to Maj Gen Emmett O'Donnell Jr., Commanding General 15th AF

 * There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders.
 * Sherry, Michael (September 10, 1989). The Rise of American Air Power: The Creation of Armageddon, p. 287 (from "LeMay's interview with Sherry," interview "after the war," p. 408 n. 108). Yale University Press. ISBN-13: 978-0300044140.

 * Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier.
 * On the morality of the firebombing campaign )

 * We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea anyway, someway or another, and some in South Korea too.… Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — twenty percent of the population of Korea as direct casualties of war, or from starvation and exposure?
 * Strategic Air Warfare: An Interview with Generals (1988), p. 88.

 * If I see that the Russians are amassing their planes for an attack, I'm going to knock the shit out of them before they take off the ground.
 * Conversation with presidential commissioner Robert Sprague (September 1957), quoted in Kaplan, F. (1991). The Wizards of Armageddon. Stanford University Press. Page 134.

 * She [ America] escaped the ruin visited upon other nations because she was given time to prepare and because of distance. [In the next war] distance will be academic [and no preparation time, too].
 * November 19th 1945 New York speech, as quoted in 'Dark Sun' p.227 (sadly, direct link to the page to read was denied by Wikipedia).

 * As far as casualties were concerned I think there were more casualties in the first attack on Tokyo with incendiaries than there were with the first use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. The fact that it's done instantaneously, maybe that's more humane than incendiary attacks, if you can call any war act humane. I don't, particularly, so to me there wasn't much difference. A weapon is a weapon and it really doesn't make much difference how you kill a man. If you have to kill him, well, that's the evil to start with and how you do it becomes pretty secondary. I think your choice should be which weapon is the most efficient and most likely to get the whole mess over with as early as possible.
 * The World at War: the Landmark Oral History from the Classic TV Series, p. 574

 * I'll tell you what war is about, you've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough they stop fighting.
 * Quoted by Richard Rhodes in The Making of the Atomic Bomb

Mission With LeMay: My Story (1965)

 * Garden City: Doubleday & Company, Inc. Co-written with MacKinlay Kantor. All quotes are from the original 1965 hardcover publication.

 * Again they thought of those pictures of the embers of Japan, the black stuff hanging around on bulletin boards. I guess intermingled with that was the thought, "How soon can we go home?" Volunteers always think that in a war, and mainly ours was a volunteer or a drafted force, as we all know. You can't blame them for thinking that. You can thank them for working like demons, which is what they did.
 * p. 370

 * Actually, I think it's more immoral to use less force than necessary, than it is to use more. if you use less force, you kill off more of humanity in the long run, because you are merely protracting the struggle.
 * p. 382

 * The German people themselves were historically responsible for the Nazi hierarchy and the Nazi war machine. No little band of hand-picked zealots alone could have wrought such a fantastic massacre. It had to be done with people. It was done with and by the German people. We can look back and salute a comparative handful of clear-minded and courageous Teutonic humans who were tortured out of existence by the Schutzstaffel or who decayed in concentration camps. But they were a distinct minority. The bulk of the German population was behind Hitler, or pretended to be. The bulk of the population applauded him, sustained him, or (in the less evil instances) stood idly by, or turned their backs on the whole thing.
 * p. 420

 * Point is, the person in public life is bound to receive a lot of half-witted criticism. He's a natural-born target for it. It is unnecessary to go to any extraordinary lengths to maintain a picture of lily-white purity and innocence. If you let things like that worry you, very soon you run out of worrying time. There are too many real problems up there on the board. Whatever you do, somebody's going to criticize you. Forget criticism.
 * p. 484

 * My solution to the problem would be to tell [the North Vietnamese Communists] frankly that they've got to draw in their horns and stop their aggression or we're going to bomb them into the Stone Age. And we would shove them back into the Stone Age with Air power or Naval power—not with ground forces.
 * Mission With LeMay: My Story (1965), p. 565. In an interview two years after the publication of this book, General LeMay said, "I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age. I said we had the capability to do it. I want to save lives on both sides"; reported in The Washington Post (October 4, 1968), p. A8. Many years later LeMay would claim that this was his ghost writer's overwriting.

 * Today we hear much discussion about "overkill." The people who are talking "overkill" knowingly or unknowingly support the adoption of a minimum-deterrence strategy. In advocating that strategy, they are addressing the wrong problem. Instead of belaboring our ability to destroy the population of an aggressor nation, they should consider what we require to save American lives and property by preventing war, or by gaining a decision as quickly as possible if war occurs. That is the proper and traditional task of the United States armed forces. The counterforce strategy which we are pursuing and analyzing today provides our best prospect for success in that task.
 * p. 521

 * I'd like to see a more aggressive attitude on the part of the United States. That doesn't mean launching an immediate preventive war...
 * p. 559.

 * ...Native annalists may look sadly back from the future on that period when we had the atomic bomb and the Russians didn't. Or when the Russians had acquired (through connivance and treachery of Westerns with warped minds) the atomic bomb - and yet still didn't have any stockpile of the weapons. That was the era when we might have destroyed Russia completely and not even skinned our elbows doing it.
 * p. 560-561.

 * China has The Bomb. [...] Sometime in the future--25, 50, 75 years hence--what will the situation be like then? By that time the Chinese will have the capability of delivery too. That's the reason some schools of thinking don't rule out a destruction of the Chinese military potential before the situation grows worse than it is today. It's bad enough now.
 * p. 561.

 * We’re at war with Japan. We were attacked by Japan. Do you want to kill Japanese, or would you rather have Americans killed?
 * From his autobiography, also requoted in Rhodes, 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb', p. 596

 * Apply whatever force it is necessary to employ, to stop things quickly. The main thing is stop it. The quicker you stop it, the more lives you save.
 * p. 565.

 * I hope that the United States of America has not yet passed the peak of honor and beauty, and that our people can still sustain certain simple philosophies at which some miserable souls feel it incumbent to sneer. I refer to some of the Psalms, and to the Gettysburg Address, and the Scout Oath. I refer to the Lord's Prayer, and to that other oath which a man must take when he stands with hand uplifted, and swears that he will defend his Country. None of those words described, or the beliefs behind them, can be sung to modern dance music. But they are there, like rocks and oaks, structurally sound and proven. They are more than rocks and oaks; they are the wing and the prayer of the future. Whether we venture into realms of Space in our latest vehicles, or whether we are concerned principally with overhauling our engines and loading our ordinance here on the ground, we will still be part of a vast proud mechanism which must function cleanly if it is to function at all. Crank her up. Let's go.
 * p. 572

Above the Reich interview (1986)

 * From a 1986 interview with Colin Heaton, as quoted by Colin Heaton and Anne-Marie Lewis, Above The Reich: Deadly Dogfights, Blistering Bombing Raids, and Other War Stories from the Greatest American Air Heroes of World War II, in Their Own Words (2021).

 * Any Ivy League academy asshole can issue orders and take the credit. What matters is when you place your own ass on the line, and your men know that you are not some armchair commander asking them to risk death while you enjoy the good life. Morale is everything, and you do not build it by typing goddamned reports and having cocktail parties. Strange, LBJ, and that ilk were like that. Those motherfuckers were whores paid to screw the public. And you know what? They never lost one night's sleep over it. They never had their ass in danger, and they never waited for the knock on the door telling them that their son was killed, all because some asshole with an Ivy League degree and a champagne glass in his hand decided that their boy did not need the money or weapons or even the fucking political support to stay alive.
 * p. 348-349

 * You know the difference between a politician and a statesman? Here is the LeMay definition: a politician is a high-profile hooker looking for money to fund a campaign so that he can be in position to be owned by a political party, doing their bidding like a slave. Johnson fit that category. A statesman is a politician whose allegiance is only to their nation, and who, despite the feelings of others, does what he believes in his gut is in the best interest of his country, politics be damned. That even means doing something that may cost him his career, but he takes the moral high ground as he sees it, to do what must be done. That was Churchill. That's the difference. Ronald Reagan is a statesman, and make a note of it- we may not have any more in the future. They are a damned dying breed. That also applies to military commanders. You can have a charismatic, friendly, and amiable type of leader, but that is a difficult position to hold when you have to maintain discipline. It can be done, but it is hard. Then there is the hard-ass, no-holds-barred, get-it-fucking-done leader who pushes his men and expects ever-better results afterward. The easygoing leader may be liked more by his men, but the hard-ass will sure as shit have their attention, and if she shares the dangers with them, he will have their respect. Respect is everything.
 * p. 349

Quotes about LeMay

 * No other U.S. military force commander so imprinted his personality and ideals upon his organization as did LeMay. SAC became LeMay personified- but only after tremendous effort on his part. There were no criticisms of his intellect or industry, nor any suggestion of patronage, but the hard, and often seemingly cold, manner in which he drove SAC gave rise to many stories about him, most of them apocryphal. In 1951, at the age of forty-six, he was confirmed as a full four-star general, the youngest since Ulysses S. Grant. LeMay was "the Iron Eagle" to his admirers, and simply "Iron Ass" to detractors who feared him. Some of his seemingly tough demeanor probably stemmed from a deadened nerve that left his face immobile and unsmiling. In practice, LeMay took better care of his troops than anyone else in the Air Force, and his tenure at SAC was filled with achievements such as improved housing, pay, recreation, promotion, medical care, and other vital personnel requirements. The most important assessment of LeMay was defined by the loyalty and the high morale of the people he commanded.
 * Walter J. Boyne, Beyond the Wild Blue: A History of the U.S. Air Force 1947-1997 (1997), p. 99

 * After his retirement in 1965, LeMay ran as a Vice Presidential candidate in George Wallace's 1968 third-party bid, a move that tarnished his reputation in the eyes of many. One time, later in his life, he was in the company of several other retired four-star generals, including his former aide David C. Jones, himself a former Chief of Staff of the Air Force and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The evening had been mellowed with some drinks, and the conversation took a daring turn- for retired or not, LeMay was still LeMay- to the question of why the general had supported Wallace. Jones recalls LeMay saying that he had not run because of political ambition- he had none, and knew that Wallace could only lose- but because he feared the direction the country would take if the Democratic candidate won. LeMay told the little group of intimates, friends for many long years, "Don't tell me about George Wallace. I know all about George Wallace. I knew he had no chance of winning. But I ran with him anyway because I thought he could take enough votes away from Humphrey. Humphrey would have been a disaster for this country as President." Always the strategist, LeMay wanted to add enough strength to Wallace's ticket to split the Democratic vote and thus defeat Humphrey. In essence, LeMay was making a last great sacrifice, his political reputation, to serve his country's cause as he saw it.
 * Walter J. Boyne, Beyond the Wild Blue: A History of the U.S. Air Force 1947-1997 (1997), p. 99-100

 * If his politics offended some, there could be no censure of his military record. No one, friend or foe, doubted for a moment that he made SAC into an elite force, capable of strategic operations on a scale never before conceived and conducted at a level of proficiency that became the standard for the USAF. Inevitably the USAF became the benchmark to which the Army and the Navy, not to mention many foreign armed forces around the world, would aspire... LeMay was a genius at organization, and the Management Control System (MCS) he installed at SAC Headquarters (and which was replicated at lower levels of command) is but one example of his style. The MCS gave LeMay the capability to spot every breakdown or potential breakdown within the SAC system, and because lower-echelon commanders were aware of his system and used it themselves, potential breakdowns were usually detected and corrected before they occurred. LeMay also had the capacity for choosing good subordinates, delegating authority to them and letting them do their job. Not all of his choices were popular. His deputy and later successor at SAC, General Thomas S. Power, had a reputation for cold-hearted efficiency that many considered bordering on sadism. LeMay knew that Power was tough- but he also knew that he got his job done, and that was what counted.
 * Walter J. Boyne, Beyond the Wild Blue: A History of the U.S. Air Force 1947-1997 (1997), p. 100

 * When LeMay arrived to take over command, he was disappointed but not surprised at what he found- senior Air Force officers were aware that the Strategic Air Command in 1948 was woefully lacking in proficiency, discipline, and professionalism. He went to work immediately to correct things, using on-the-spot leadership to do so.
 * Walter J. Boyne, Beyond the Wild Blue: A History of the U.S. Air Force 1947-1997 (1997), p. 101

 * Lemay's style was to have his best crews set the highest standards, then provide more than adequate training and flying time for other crews to reach those standards of proficiency. He also insisted on scrupulously accurate records and very demanding evaluation procedures, knowing that he had inherited an air force that had reflexively gone from the rigors of war to the pleasures of a really well equipped flying club, one that paid you for belonging. It was a long process, for SAC was expanding rapidly. When the author joined the Strategic Air Command in January 1953, as a green second lieutenant freshly graduated from flying school, he was puzzled by the flying club atmosphere. Flying the big Boeing B-50s was done as a sport, radar bombing, navigation, and gunnery scores were fudged, and the principle occupation seemed to be playing hearts in the briefing room. Then one bright day Lemay's inspection team came in. Heads rolled, rigorous standards were introduced and enforced, and reporting became squeaky clean. Oddly enough, everyone still retaining his head was happier with the new system.
 * Walter J. Boyne, Beyond the Wild Blue: A History of the U.S. Air Force 1947-1997 (1997), p. 102

 * The practical effects of the policies are less interesting to policy makers in Washington than the spirit in which they’re intended. When you’re pulling the trigger, the spirit is always pure. Liberals believed that Curtis LeMay dropped bombs because he was a crazed warmonger who took pleasure in hurting people. Liberals believe they bomb countries for the same reason they once opposed bombing countries, because they want to make the world a better place.
 * Tucker Carlson, Ship of Fools: How a Selfish Ruling Class Is Bringing America to the Brink of Revolution (2018)

 * After the first International Days of Protest in October, 1965, Senator Mansfield criticized the "sense of utter irresponsibility" shown by the demonstrators. He had nothing to say then, nor has he since, about the "sense of utter irresponsibility" shown by Senator Mansfield and others who stand by quietly and vote appropriations as the cities and villages of North Vietnam are demolished, as millions of refugees in the South are driven from their homes by American bombardment. He has nothing to say about the moral standards or the respect for international law of those who have permitted this tragedy. I speak of Senator Mansfield precisely because he is not a breast-beating superpatriot who wants America to rule the world, but is rather an American intellectual in the best sense, a scholarly and reasonable man -- the kind of man who is the terror of our age. Perhaps this is merely a personal reaction, but when I look at what is happening to our country, what I find most terrifying is not Curtis LeMay, with his cheerful suggestion that we bomb everybody back into the stone age, but rather the calm disquisitions of the political scientists on just how much force will be necessary to achieve our ends, or just what form of government will be acceptable to us in Vietnam. What I find terrifying is the detachment and equanimity with which we view and discuss an unbearable tragedy. We all know that if Russia or China were guilty of what we have done in Vietnam, we would be exploding with moral indignation at these monstrous crimes.
 * Noam Chomsky "On Resistance", The New York Review of Books, December 7, 1967.

 * I used to receive a hundred calls a year from people who wanted me to get into the Green Room at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, because that's where the Air Force stored all the material gathered on UFOs. I once asked Curtis LeMay if I could get in that room, and he just gave me holy hell. He said, 'Not only can't you get into it but don't you ever mention it to me again.'
 * Barry Goldwater, quoted in The New Yorker, April 25, 1988, p. 70

 * An excellent pilot and officer equally capable in both combat and staff, LeMay was typical of the bomber-minded generals who emerged from World War II to dominate the Air Force during the Cold War.
 * James F. Dunnigan & Albert A. Nofi, The Pacific War Encyclopedia, Volume 1: A-L (1998), p. 363

 * Precisely to compensate for an impression of inexperience after the events of the last few months, Kennedy just then named as chief of staff of the Air Force General Curtis LeMay, the man with the toughest militarist image in the armed services. This despite the fact that a number of observers, including Robert Kennedy, would report incidents when certain military men—LeMay above all—would give Kennedy the impression that they were essentially insane, madly reckless, or out of touch with reality. (These included, the next year, LeMay’s strongly worded advice on the Sunday morning in 1962 when Khrushchev announced he was dismantling his missiles in Cuba that the president should go ahead and attack Cuba anyway.) Yet it was Kennedy who had named LeMay as chief of staff of the Air Force on June 30, 1961, and kept him there.
 * Daniel Ellsberg, The Doomsday Machine: Confessions from a Nuclear War Planner (2017)
 * In the course of our talk, I asked LeMay how concerned he had been, as commander of SAC, about the possibility of a surprise attack by a Soviet submarine on Washington. He said calmly that he had “felt satisfied” with his authority as CINCSAC to carry out his plans in that event, which was clearly a reference to the Eisenhower delegation that I had reported on at the start of the year and which Kaysen had confirmed. But before I could pursue that—the first face-to-face reference to delegated authority from a military officer I had heard outside the Pacific Command—LeMay took the discussion into territory I had never explored before. Suppose that Washington had not been hit, he said, when warning of an enemy attack came in. Should the president be part of the decision process at all, he asked us, even if he were alive and in communication? Neither Kaysen nor I had ever heard that question raised before. We waited for him to continue, which he seemed to have expected. He rolled his cigar at the corner of his mouth in a way I’d seen imitated by some of his staff officers. (His ever-present half-smoked cigar gave him a tough look, befitting his reputation. I learned later that he used it to disguise a touch of Bell’s palsy.) Speaking gruffly, he asked rhetorically, “After all, who is more qualified to make that decision [of whether to go to nuclear war on the basis of warning]: some politician who may have been in office for only a couple of months … or a man who has been preparing all his adult life to make it?” Both his lips and his voice curled contemptuously around the words “some politician.” The “p” was an explosive puff. And the personal reference seemed pointed. This was the first year of the current politician’s presidential term, in which “Lieutenant Kennedy” had held back air support from his beleaguered invasion force at the Bay of Pigs. (And, as I learned later, the year he had refrained from knocking down the new Berlin Wall and then refused to send combat troops to Vietnam, having earlier rejected sending them to Laos.) The general making the comment, for years the commander of the Strategic Air Command, was the man who had planned and directed the immolation of a hundred thousand Japanese civilians in the firebombing of Tokyo on March 9–10, 1945, and five months after that had commanded the atomic-bomb strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 * Daniel Ellsberg, The Doomsday Machine: Confessions from a Nuclear War Planner (2017)
 * In 1943, 40,000 died in the German city of Hamburg, many in the firestorm that swept the city as a result of Allied bombing, and in 1945 perhaps a further 35,000 in Dresden. (The figure for the latter, like the choice of the target itself, remains highly controversial.) The American bombing of Tokyo that same year with incendiary bombs (a weapon chosen deliberately because so many structures in the city were made of wood) destroyed sixteen square miles and left 80,000 to 100,000 dead and 1 million homeless. Major-General Curtis LeMay, whose responsibility the raid was, said the Japanese were ‘scorched and boiled and baked to death’. It was no oversight that mass bombings were not included in the Allied indictment of Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg trials.
 * Margaret MacMillan, War: How Conflict Shaped Us (2020)
 * Kennedy was trying to keep us out of war. I was trying to help him keep us out of war. And General Curtis LeMay, whom I served under as a matter of fact in World War II, was saying "Let's go in, let's totally destroy Cuba."
 * Robert McNamara, interview with Errol Morris in the The Fog of War (2003)
 * Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command. Proportionality should be a guideline in war. Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs is not proportional, in the minds of some people, to the objectives we were trying to achieve.
 * Robert McNamara, interview with Errol Morris in the The Fog of War (2003)
 * LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals." And I think he's right. He, and I'd say I, were behaving as war criminals. LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?
 * Robert McNamara, interview with Errol Morris in the The Fog of War (2003)
 * SAC had been established by belligerent old General Curt LeMay and General Tommy Power, both pronuclear nutcases. Under their rules, if a wing commander messed up even a little bit he was canned and gone forever, so SAC fostered attitudes about how tough they were. What they really did was made a bunch of liars out of many wing commanders, DMs, and DOs. Guys at wing level were scared people. They would lie, cheat, steal, and deny- anything to make themselves look good.
 * Robin Olds, Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds (2010), with Christina Olds and Ed Rasimus, p. 372

 * When LeMay scared the hell out of his people, he made something out of them that I don't think was their true nature. He made them cringe and hide the truth. He made them say, "Yes, sir, yes, sir," becoming chronic liars protecting their own skins. Whom were these guys going to promote? Whom were they going to favor in their OER (Officer Effectiveness Report) system? It wouldn't be somebody better, or even someone similar to them. A man like that has to have somebody working for him that he can dominate, and he is inevitably going to pick a lesser individual. After about twenty years of this system the incest destroys the force. I had a bunch of really great friends in SAC, but a big group of guys were developed into people who were afraid to think for themselves. They damn near destroyed the air force in the process.
 * Robin Olds, Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds (2010), with Christina Olds and Ed Rasimus, p. 374

 * Eventually the decision was reached to accept the armed chopper as an essential part of the air mobility concept but not to allow the Army to use the Mohawk as an attack aircraft, confining it to a reconnaissance role. Both were wise decisions. But prior to these decisions there were some hot and emotional sessions of the JCS. One concerned the armed Huey, which as then being used successfully in Vietnam to support ARVN operations, but which was considered by the Air Force as illegal poaching on their roles and missions. This was in the midsummer of 1964. General LeMay suddenly took his cigar out of his mouth and, gesticulating wildly, challenged General Johnson to an aerial duel. He screamed, "Johnson, you fly one of those damned Huey's and I'll fly an F-105, and we'll see who survives. I'll shoot you down and scatter your peashooter all over the goddamn ground." I was eager to defend my chief, both verbally and physically (LeMay would have made two Johnsons in body weight, if not in mental poundage) but Johnson motioned to me to keep quiet and responded quietly: "I'm not a flier, but I will be happy to get qualified and take you on- we can agree on a time and place later. But let's not waste the valuable time of our colleagues on such a trivial matter."
 * Bruce Palmer, Jr., in his book The 25-Year War: America's Military Role in Vietnam (1984), p. 27

title: Curtis LeMay


text:
Wikiquote talk:Recovered/Recentchanges

This is a historical page which was once used as a header on the Recent Changes page.

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Talk:Stan Laurel

Another fine mess
Isn't that a quote from Oliver Hardy, not Stan Laurel? — Jeff Q (talk) 03:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stan Laurel


text:
User talk:207.54.201.61

[RE: off-topic edits to T. H. White on 13 April 2005.]

title: User talk:207.54.201.61


text:
Template:Wiktionary

 Look up  in Wiktionary, the free dictionary

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Norm Schryer

Norm Schryer is a computer scientist and head of AT&T Broadband Services Research.

Quotes

 * When code and comments disagree, both are probably wrong.
 * More Programming Pearls: Confessions of a Coder, Column 6: Bumper-Sticker Computer Science.

title: Norm Schryer


text: Category:Martial artists

title: Category:Martial artists


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User talk:Ktsquare

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User talk:Jeet~enwikiquote

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Hi,, welcome back to Wikiquote ;-) Here are some useful links:
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User talk:Kevin Rector

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User talk:24.147.11.75

Welcome to Wikiquote, the free compendium of quotations! You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikiquote, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires you to provide no personal information, and gives you many benefits, including:
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title: User talk:24.147.11.75


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Welcome to Wikiquote, the free compendium of quotations! You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikiquote, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires you to provide no personal information, and gives you many benefits, including:
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User talk:TheGrza

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User talk:Julien~enwikiquote

--Aphaia 15:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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User talk:201.144.28.192

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title: User talk:4.7.45.96


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EU
Indeed spams. Thank you for your notice, it was just reverted. --Aphaia 20:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:217.72.50.197


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User talk:24.28.123.143

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User talk:24.79.174.157

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Welcome to Wikiquote, the free compendium of quotations! You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikiquote, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires you to provide no personal information, and gives you many benefits, including:
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