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Wikiquote:Protection log

02:00, 1 Dec 2004 Kalki protected Template:Otherwiki (protecting from vandalism)  00:51, 23 Nov 2004 Kalki protected General disclaimer (protecting the disclaimer from vandalism.)  08:15, 18 Jul 2004 Kalki protected Recentchanges (protecting as an obvious target for vandalism;)  13:27, 9 Jul 2004 Kalki protected Template:Qotd (This is an obvious target for vandals, and I believe that henceforth only sysops should edit it.)  21:21, 7 Jul 2004 Kalki protected Recentchanges (This would be an obvious target for vandals, and most users might not be aware that it could be reverted. Thus I am protecting it so only sysops can edit it.)  13:14, 5 Jul 2004 Kalki protected Template:Lynx (This is designed to be used on nearly all pages, and as such should be protected from vandalism.)  18:13, 28 Jun 2004 Kalki protected Quote of the Day archive (protecting so that no more inadvertent or improper additions are made to it. )  10:19, 10 Apr 2004 Kalki protected GNU FDL</li>

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Alan Kay

Alan Curtis Kay (born 17 May 1940) is an American computer scientist best known for his pioneering work on object-oriented programming and windowing graphical user interface design.

1970s

 * The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
 * Alan Kay (1971) at a 1971 meeting of PARC
 * Similar remarks are attributed to Peter Drucker and Dandridge M. Cole.
 * Cf. Dennis Gabor, Inventing the Future (1963): "The future cannot be predicted, but futures can be invented."
 * Nigel Calder reviewed Gabor's book and wrote, "we cannot predict the future, but we can invent it..."

 * [ Computing ] is just a fabulous place for that, because it's a place where you don't have to be a Ph.D. or anything else. It's a place where you can still be an artisan. People are willing to pay you if you're any good at all, and you have plenty of time for screwing around.
 * Alan Kay (1972) in 1972 Rolling Stone article

1980s

 * People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.
 * talk at Creative Think seminar, 20 July 1982

 * A change in perspective is worth 80 IQ points.
 * Perspective is worth 80 IQ points.
 * Point of view is worth 80 IQ points
 * Talk at Creative Think seminar, 20 July 1982

 * Technology is anything that wasn't around when you were born.
 * Hong Kong press conference in the late 1980s

 * The future is not laid out on a track. It is something that we can decide, and to the extent that we do not violate any known laws of the universe, we can probably make it work the way that we want to.
 * 1984 in Alan Kay's paper Inventing the Future which appears in The AI Business: The Commercial Uses of Artificial Intelligence, edited by Patrick Henry Winston and Karen Prendergast. As quoted by Eugene Wallingford in a post entiteled ALAN KAY'S TALKS AT OOPSLA on November 06, 2004 9:03 PM at the website of the Computer Science section of the University of Northern Iowa.

1990s

 * I don't know how many of you have ever met Dijkstra, but you probably know that arrogance in computer science is measured in nano-Dijkstras.
 * The Computer Revolution hasn't happened yet — 1997 OOPSLA Keynote

 * Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
 * The Computer Revolution hasn't happened yet — 1997 OOPSLA Keynote
 * Alternative: I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
 * Attributed to Alan Kay in: Peter Seibel (2005) Practical Common Lisp. p.189

2000s

 * ... greatest single programming language ever designed. (About the Lisp programming language.)
 * 2003. Daddy, Are We There Yet? A Discussion with Alan Kay

 * I finally understood that the half page of code on the bottom of page 13 of the Lisp 1.5 manual was Lisp in itself. These were “Maxwell’s Equations of Software!”
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

A Conversation with Alan Kay, 2004–05

 * Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * Perl is another example of filling a tiny, short-term need, and then being a real problem in the longer term. Basically, a lot of the problems that computing has had in the last 25 years comes from systems where the designers were trying to fix some short-term thing and didn't think about whether the idea would scale if it were adopted. There should be a half-life on software so old software just melts away over 10 or 15 years.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * Basic would never have surfaced because there was always a language better than Basic for that purpose. That language was Joss, which predated Basic and was beautiful. But Basic happened to be on a GE timesharing system that was done by Dartmouth, and when GE decided to franchise that, it started spreading Basic around just because it was there, not because it had any intrinsic merits whatsoever.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * Computing spread out much, much faster than educating unsophisticated people can happen. In the last 25 years or so, we actually got something like a pop culture, similar to what happened when television came on the scene and some of its inventors thought it would be a way of getting Shakespeare to the masses. But they forgot that you have to be more sophisticated and have more perspective to understand Shakespeare. What television was able to do was to capture people as they were. So I think the lack of a real computer science today, and the lack of real software engineering today, is partly due to this pop culture.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * Sun Microsystems had the right people to make Java into a first-class language, and I believe it was the Sun marketing people who rushed the thing out before it should have gotten out.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * If the pros at Sun had had a chance to fix Java, the world would be a much more pleasant place. This is not secret knowledge. It's just secret to this pop culture.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * I fear —as far as I can tell— that most undergraduate degrees in computer science these days are basically Java vocational training. I've heard complaints from even mighty Stanford University with its illustrious faculty that basically the undergraduate computer science program is little more than Java certification.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * Most creativity is a transition from one context into another where things are more surprising. There's an element of surprise, and especially in science, there is often laughter that goes along with the “Aha.” Art also has this element. Our job is to remind us that there are more contexts than the one that we're in — the one that we think is reality.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * I hired finishers because I'm a good starter and a poor finisher.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

 * The flip side of the coin was that even good programmers and language designers tended to do terrible extensions when they were in the heat of programming, because design is something that is best done slowly and carefully.
 * ACM Queue A Conversation with Alan Kay Vol. 2, No. 9 - Dec/Jan 2004-2005

2010s

 * However, I am no big fan of Smalltalk either, even though it compares very favourably with most programming systems today (I don't like any of them, and I don't think any of them are suitable for the real programming problems of today, whether for systems or for end-users).
 * 2010 for Computerworld Australia

 * Possibly the only real object-oriented system in working order. (About Internet)
 * 2010 for Computerworld Australia

 * The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs.
 * 2012 Dr. Dobb's Interview with Alan Kay

 * Object-oriented [programming] never made it outside of Xerox PARC; only the term did.
 * Alan Kay - Rethinking Design, Risk, and Software

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Alan Kay


text:
Troy Perry

Troy Deroy Perry Jr. (born July 27, 1940) founded the Metropolitan Community Church, a Christian denomination with a special affirming ministry with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender communities.

Quotes

 * If you had told me 28 years ago that the largest organization in the world touching the lives of gays and lesbians would be a church, I would not have believed you. So many members of the lesbian and gay community feel they have had violence done to them by religious groups that it is very difficult to evangelize any members of our community. But we do evangelize.
 * Quoted in the Christian Century in 1996.

 * Jesus died for our sins, not our sexuality.
 * Quoted in Aldrich, Robert and Wotherspoon, Gary (Eds.) (2001). Who's Who in Contemporary Gay & Lesbian History: From World War II to the Present Day. New York: Routledge. ISBN 041522974X.

title: Troy Perry


text:
Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche

couple of new, longer passages
I've simply presented them, do with them as you will. [Username:DWRZ on Wikipedia]

"Beware of those..."
Thank you, 68.48.66.114 for locating the source of the "Beware of those in whom the will to punish is strong." quote. I knew that I had read it in Nietzsche's works, but had lost track of where. It is one of my all time favorites by anyone, and was the one statement that prompted me to study many of Nietzsche's writings years ago. I restored the variant that you erased though, because it is the form that I am most familiar with, though I do not yet know which translation it might be from. I will try to find out sometime within the next few days. — Kalki 12:32, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hello, I've sourced several of the "attributed" quotes and put the ones from "Antichrist" and "Twilight" into new sections. Two were from Zarathustra, I put them there. Another one had already been in Beyond Good and Evil, and one I moved to "Gay Science".

There is still no unity of form. I suggest that the quotes are sorted by book, the books chronologically (if they do not have their own page), and then:

From [book X, with link]
--Chef 00:26, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * "[Original German]"
 * "[translation]"
 * [Section Title / Number]
 * [optional notes, renderings, misquotes etc.]

"Related"
Having a fun a bit, but I suppose we are better to remove it. Wikiquote is not a compendium of notable quotations, not a compendium of subway quotes. But I would like to wait one day for getting other editors' opinion. --Aphaia 14:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a pretty classic quote, by now. I've seen it in my fortune database, for example. I'm for keeping it, personally. MosheZadka 16:00, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm also for keeping it, it's nice:) And quite "notable" I think, I saw it in other places too. Not that I think that it's a big deal one way or the other... Aphaia, if you care about info being added that is irrelevant to wikiquote, I think that the place to start is with setting a policy for external links: right now there're articles where the external links don't have anything to do with quotes, i.e. it seems like such links should be only in the wikipedia version of the article. iddo999 16:32, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it's not really related. We should remove it. (Added by User:24.222.24.100)

 * In what sense is this "not really related"? It's a quote. It's about Nietzsche. I am afraid I do not see your logic. Could you perhaps explain why you think so? ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 03:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have anything to do with Nietzsche's philosophy. AlexSa 03:53, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Fortunately, the page is called "Friedrich Nietzsche", not "Nietzsche's philosophy". Since the quote is about FN, I submit that it is relevant. The only argument is whether, as an anonymous quote, it is notable. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 03:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It just doesn't fit with the rest. It's not even exactly about Nietzsche, more about the idea of god being dead. The other problem is that there's not evidence to show it really happened, or if it was just made up by some religious preacher or something. And also, it's taking the meaning of "God is dead" in a very literal, and naive way. I still think it should be removed. Alex 04:13, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Wikiquote does not exclude quotes because they misunderstand the philosophy, because they are made up by religious preachers, etc. The quote is notable (because it pops up all over the place). If it is wrong, that is up to the Wikipedia article "Nietzsche's philosophy" to explain (perhaps in a section called "Common misunderstandings of Nietzsche"). Since it mentions Nietzsche by name, it certainly relates to him. Wikiquote only collects quotations -- we do not attempt to refute them. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 04:18, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * We have precedent for keeping well-known quotes from anonymous sources in public places, like bumper stickers (see Abortion). The quote is also a direct response to a famous Nietzsche quote, so it qualifies as a quote about Nietzsche, which is accepted practice here as long as it's clear that it's not by the person named. And as an atheist, I'm more inclined to agree with Nietzsche than the graffiti artist, but the quote still has value. My only concern is about the section title. It should probably be something like "Quotes about Nietzsche" to follow existing practice. "Related" is too vague and subject to abuse. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

My opinion is near to AlexSa, those quotes have no relevant to the famous quote "Der Gott is tot" at least in its philosophical meaning ... if you have read once this part (iirc it is a fragment of Gala Science), so we can say "they have no relation to Friedrich Nietzsche", that is, "Philosophie Nietzsches". And parodies are surely based on that phrase, it isn't related to "Nietzshe", his existence and thought. Not at all. Too superflurious parodies have no relevance to the original in its meaning. The stress is not here, but successive part "We murdered him. We are the murderers of the God". Though, only a rhetorical aspect was borrowed.

Shortly it is related to a quote in a rhetorical sense, but not relevant to its content in my view. Therefore we can't say it is related or relevant to the original author. Parodies don't mentioen to Nietsche. They can't be "related quotes" in the meaning of "quotes on someone".

My proposal is to create a separate page and link it and this page to each other. Perhaps "Gott ist tot" has a link to it with a remark "this phrase is very known and parodied by many people including anonymous". But I strongly oppose to keep it as a section of this page. It is not related to Nietzsche himself at all. --Aphaia 04:54, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The quote is "'Nietzsche is dead.' — God". It's clearly meant to refer to Friedrich Nietzsche the 19th-century famous German philosopher, not George Nietzsche of West Hollywood, CA, USA. It's a response to Nietzsche's parallel quote "God is dead". It's a parodying criticism of Nietzsche. How can one possibly claim that it's not about Nietzsche? I feel like we're doing a Clintonesque redefinition of what "about" means. We can argue the appropriateness of non-Nietzsche-originated quotes in a Nietzsche article, we can argue about the appropriateness of graffiti quotes, however well-known, but surely we don't need to start redefining the English language to avoid including quotes we don't like. Am I missing some other motive here? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I am not sure what is the motivation here. This is a popular, anonymous quote about Nietzsche. Even if it was not a parody of something he said, it would still be relevant here -- many pages have sections of "Quotes about person", with various quotation mentioning the person. Regarding Aphaia's and Alex's opinions that this quote stems from a misunderstanding of Nietzche -- even if so, that does not make the quote less relevant (popular misunderstandings are certainly notable) -- I think philosophical debates do not belong on wikiquote, but if anyone would like to argue the point with me, my lj seems like a more appropriate forum. Thanks ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 06:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry for my misunderstanding, I forget this section has only one quote. But still I don't think it as "about Nietzsche" quote, and still a palody. It isn't same other critisism, like Leo Torstoy's "Nietzsche is insane". (See his page). My point is still on that "it is not related to Nietzsche". Because there is only one quote, I think it is not a good idea to give it a separate page. Perhaps "derivative" would be better than "related" in my opinion. --Aphaia 08:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's a big deal, but the reasoning behind putting this on the page somehow makes me feel we should put all the jokes about, say, G.W Bush on his related page because they're well known, they're about Bush, and they're anonymous. Alex 01:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * No need to include jokes about GWB, his own words are funny enough:) But as a general principle, if a joke about someone is notable, it might be a good idea to include it. Though I would say that the GWB case is different from the Nietzsche case, because it's a 'current event', i.e. it's not a good idea to decide what is supposed to be notable with regard to someone who gives us new material each day, as opposed to someone like Nietzsche where his entire work is already known, and opinions on him should be quite stable. I agree with MosheZadka and Jeffq that even if this quote about Nietzsche is a result of a total misunderstanding of his writing, it doesn't follow that it shouldn't be included - in fact quite the opposite... As for the title of the section, how about "parody" instead of "related"? iddo999 08:00, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I've already exceeded my interest in this article (which I only got involved with in order to resolve a link from Firefly that Jeandré added), so I'll present parting comments. I prefer a general but unambiguous standard like "Quotes about Nietzsche" (or equivalent) to prevent multiple categories of quotes about, not from, Nietzsche. That's independent of whether we decide to keep the quote. (Of course, if the quote goes, the section can be left out unless and until another one is to be added.) Have fun. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Nietzsche isn't dead ("One has to pay dearly for immortality; one has to die several times while one is still alive." "The aphorism in which I am the first master among germans, are the forms of 'eternity'; my ambition is to say in ten sentences what everyone else says in a book - what everyone else does not say in a book."), so it's inaccurate, although, no less (f/p)unny. {Phoenixdolphin 16:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)}

I am not man, I'm dynamite
I've seen this attributed to Nietzche, but I don't see it here. Did he actually say this?

Yes he said this.

I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous--a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite.-- (Ecce Homo, "Why I am a Destiny", 1).

Bogus or Genuine Nietzsche?
I'd like to see if anyone knows anything about a supposed quotation from Nietzsche. It is as follows: "What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we do…?" I've seen this on several quotation sites, including the Quotations Page, but none of them give a source. None of the pages I've seen that are specifically dedicated to Nietzsche mention this quotation at all. It sounds rather like his aphoristic style, but on the other hand it seems more positive about love than he typically is. Anyone know if this is bogus or not, and if not, where is it from? --turmarion 20:52 19 October 06

It's from Human, All Too Human. Aphorism 75 "Love and Duality". The beginning of it can be viewed on Google Books in the Hollingdale translation, page 229"

Does anyone have a translation for this?
“Gott ist eine faustgrobe Antwort, eine Undelikatesse gegen uns Denker, im Grunde sogar bloß ein faustgrobes Verbot an uns: ihr sollt nicht denken!” As a native German speaker, I consider this quote from Ecce homo characteristic for Nietzsche’s linguistic wit. — 84.150.210.160 11:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, I'd translate that as (and I'm taking a bit of poetic liberty in my translation) "God is a strongfisted answer, an undelicacy contrary to out sages, to all intents and purposes a forbiddance against ourselves: you should not think!" Is that about in line with how you translate it? If so, I'd agree, it is very characteristic of his wit.

On another note, I'm making a slight edit to the "Große Drache" bit from Also Sprach Zarathustra. "ich will" means "I want", not "I will".

 * The translations we prefer to use are standard published ones, when available. There might be modern translations which can be found using "I want" and added as variants here, but "I will" has been used in translations of this passage for at least a century. ~ Kalki 04:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

 * By doing that, you're essentially caving in to the fact that the translator spoke poor German and took too many liberties in his translation. As a fluent German speaker, I can tell you "ich will" would never be used to mean "I will"
 * Comments could be made beneath a published translation, if they are held to be of dubious quality and precision, but this is hardly the case of a single incompetent translator using "I will" for ich will but of many published translators doing it since the 19th century. ~ Kalki 01:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * As a non-native German philosophy researcher, I support Kalki's argument. In general a bad translation of significant terms may prevail - but mission of Wikiquote is not to argue or change such a custom outsides of academia, rather to collect what people think the majority at that time. You may find a comment from reliable sources which support your argument and are welcome to add such a comment to its remark, but arguments which has never been supported by a printed material has no place here on Wikiquote when the opposite side prevail on printed and widely spreading arguments. --Aphaia 07:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I really had been puzzled as to why this was being called a poor translation, as it seemed clear enough to me, but looking at the objections again, I think the assessment of it as an error derives from being over-constrained with the use of the English word "will" — using it only in the sense of "I will do it" — rather in the sense which here applies, which indicates the presence of "will" in relation to desires and determination as in the statement "I will it to be so." ~ Kalki 17:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Please note my comment is not to aim to this particular case. I just point out another ring for the struggles of fittest terminology. --Aphaia 13:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Why The pictures
Most of these pictures are inappropriate and distracting, they should be reduced in number.
 * I think they're used for people who are just fast looking over the page, to catch attention. Although I'd say that the pictures of Nietzsche when he's dehabilitated aren't very flattering. Of course one could say they make him more human, but could it be enough with one of them?
 * Personally I don't mind to remove those images. Some images, like an Greek amphitheater or portraits of people around him may be useful, but I don't think his thought need to be largely illustrated. He may even be opposed to such an romantic approach. --Aphaia 10:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't wikipedia be for the people? And people might not have it so easy in taking in his quotes. And didn't he want to speak to the people? Any good newspaper article, no matter how boring, has an illustration. Might my fontalized quotes be better? One could make them 1-bit (just straight black and white), that might not distract so much. Oh and [Thus Spake Zarathustra] has been illustrated already.
 * I am not sure I agree with you here. There are many good articles unillustrated in magazines and newspapers. You may find many artilces without any illustrations or photos in New York Times ... and for scholastic materials, even illustration is rarely found. Illustration is only justified if they are relevant to the topics I think. And in regard with NPOV, we are better to have an image which relevance is in dispute, I think.--Aphaia 04:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Awww. How cute, that you disagree. You're wrong. The pictures work beautifully, and it's a miracle that a stringent uselessness such as yourself hasn't recklessly removed them thus far. The beauty synchronizes perfectly to the synonymous beauty of the quote. If one here is grossly inappropriate, then maybe spend, or should I say waste, your time complaining about it here and getting it removed. As it is, they work winningly.

24.177.120.179 08:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Art and intoxication
"For art to exist, for any sort of aesthetic activity to exist, a certain physiological precondition is indispensable: intoxication."

This is widely attributed to Nietzsche, but it's not on Wikiquote and there doesn't seem to be any real information on it. If someone could find the original German text or put it into some context, that would be great. 72.154.101.223 10:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * D'oh. An article on JSTOR indicates that it's from Twilight of the Idols. 72.154.101.223 10:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

here:

Twilight of the Idols Expeditions of an untimely man 8 Towards a psychology of the artist. - For art to exist, for any sort of aesthetic activity or perception to exist, a certain physiological precondition is indispensable: intoxication

How about 7 quotes per book...
...with the rest on separate pages, with a predisposition for short quotes? And maybe 1 quote max per part (of the book)? {Phoenixdolphin 09:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)}

 * I have no clue of your proposal. Why do we need such (mechanical) restrictions? --Aphaia 10:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok 1 quote per part might be a little dumb, but Thus Spake Zarathustra has already been broken up (and some others), so I'm wondering why not the others should be as well. And why? Because most people won't read so much.

Bolded quotes
Practically every quote on this page is bolded, which defeats the purpose of bolding and also makes the page very difficult to read! --98.223.210.154 05:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No. The boldness synchronizes perfectly, as it is, (congratulations to whomever spent time on it) with what should be understood as the more important sections of quote here.

24.177.120.179 09:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the bolding. ImperfectlyInformed 00:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Nietzsche or Kipling?
No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

This is a portion of a quote which has been attributed to both authors. Does it actually derive from either one? If it's Nietzsche, surely it must be found in Der Wille zur Macht, but I can't find it there. --76.202.226.195 21:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I think this is a Kipling quotation falsely attributed to Nietzsche. Though the N attribution is present in many published texts, I can't find any references to a specific N work, nor can I find it in N.207.151.242.20 05:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The quote it's actually from Kipling. It comes from an interview piece by Arthur Gordon, "Interview with an Immortal", Reader’s Digest, 1935. The 1967 Kipling Society journal reprints it as "Six Hours with Rudyard Kipling". It quotes Kipling as saying Here the link: http://www.johnradcliffe.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/textfiles/KJ162.txt

Noting the translator
All these quotes need to have their translators noted. This is quite serious. ImperfectlyInformed 00:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

"Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torments of man."
This is an interesting quote but I don't know the source. 24.118.48.49 03:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Abyss Quote
"If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you." <-- Is this him? Why is it nowhere to be found on the wiki? -- Earthsprite
 * That's from Twilight of the Idols, aphorism 8. 70.186.172.214 13:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's listed on the page for Beyond Good and Evil, as Aphorism 146 from that work. The translation given on that page is:  "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." 69.115.194.45 16:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Crossbowman
Down with the quote that starts "Whereas a man of action," there's a picture of a crossbowman. Why? I hesitate to remove it outright since there might be some reason it fits there, but can anyone confirm that there is? If not, we ought to take it out since it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense where it is.--72.130.131.28 05:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced
Move to Talk pending sourcing per current practice (Limits on quotations). Gordonofcartoon 15:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed. Jbgfour (talk) 04:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
 * From a letter to his sister [at the age of 20].

 * The future influences the present just as much as the past.

 * [Linguistic Danger to Spiritual Freedom.-] Every word is a prejudice. (The Wanderer and his Shadow, sec. 55)

 * The greatest events are not our loudest hours, but rather our most quiet.

 * Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent. (Beyond Good and Evil) - I don't know who put this, but I can't find it anywhere in Beyond Good and Evil.

 * Regarding "Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent." -- I do not believe this was actually Nietzsche.  I *think* I wrote it during Nanowrimo 2011 and posted it in the Nanowrimo forums at the time (which have been wiped, so I could not check to make sure).  The novel I was working on was a satirical sci-fi piece with a kooky QuoteBot that would spit out strange misquotes attributed to historical figures.  That was one of them.  (I can't swear to that being the case though.  I believe a few of the quotes were accurate.  That one looks pretty cut and dried to me not to have been Nietzsche, though I can't say who did actually say it, due to my inadequate notes.)

 * A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy. (Human, all too human, woman and child, aphorism #390)

 * At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

 * For out of fear and need each religion is born, creeping into existence on the byways of reason.

 * I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.

 * In heaven all the interesting people are missing.
 * From the Nachlaß, KSA 13: 11[153]
 * Original context: Die Kirche hat deutsche Kaiser auf Grund ihrer Laster in Bann getan: als ob ein Mönch oder Priester über das mitreden dürfte, was ein Friedrich der Zweite von sich fordern darf. Ein Don Juan wird in die Hölle geschickt: das ist sehr naiv. Hat man bemerkt, daß im Himmel alle interessanten Menschen fehlen?
 * Translated: The Church has excommunicated German emperors because of their vices: As if a monk or a priest had a say in what someone like Friedrich II [the Staufer, 1194-1250] may demand of himself. A Don Juan is sent to hell: that is very naïve. Is it noticed that in Heaven all the interesting people are missing?

 * After the old god has been assassinated, I am ready to rule the world.

 * Swallow your poison, for you need it badly.

 * Blessed are the forgetful, for they get the best of even their blunders. chapter 7 of Beyond good and evil (BGE 7.217) not translated by Kaufmann

 * What is bad? But I have already answered: all that proceeds from weakness, from envy, from revenge.—The anarchist and the Christian have the same ancestry... (~The Antichrist, 57)

 * We have art in order not to die of the truth. ("We possess art lest we perish of the truth." ~Nietzsche's notebook from the Spring-Summer of 1888, 16 [40])

 * Your pride can't hurt me — I have no beliefs!

 * No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.

 * He who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance; one cannot fly into flying. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)

 * People demand freedom only when they have no power.

 * He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.
 * Frankl Man's Search for Meaning uses that quote often.

 * Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal.

 * The errors of great men are venerable because they are more fruitful than the truths of little men.

 * To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence.

 * Just now I am having all anti-Semites shot.
 * note to Overbeck (according to this)

 * And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.

 * (Comment: the "insane" quote appears in this Google Books result: Rosalie Ham (2011), There Should Be More Dancing, p. 190.) --Omnipaedista (talk) 12:32, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

"In all talk there is a grain of contempt."
"We no longer have sufficiently high esteem for ourselves when we communicate. Our true experiences are not at all garrulous. They could not communicate themselves even if they tried: they lack the right words. We have already gone beyond whatever we have words for. In all talk there is a grain of contempt. Language, it seems, was invented only for what is average, medium, communicable. By speaking the speaker immediately vulgarizes himself. — Out of a morality for deaf-mutes and other philosophers." From Twilight of the Idols, http://www.handprint.com/SC/NIE/GotDamer.html

The quote on the page says it is from "Expeditions of an Untimely Man", but I found it here in Twilight of the Idols. Also, the quote on the page is only a shortened form of this whole aphorism and may lead to a misinterpretation for it is possible he is here mocking the statement "In all talk there is a grain of contempt."

"liberalism is the transformation of mankind into cattle"
Obviously a wrong quote.

Checked in Human, All Too Human, checked Menschliches, Allzumenschliches, too, and I can't find anything even close the this quote (It ain't on german wikiquote either). Also I didn't find it anywhere on the net without Nietzsche named as origin...

I think it should be moved to Misattributed

 * The sourcing which had been provided seems to have been wrong. I did find the remark in the Anthony Ludovici translation of Twilight of the Idols. ~  Kalki 14:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, then it's not Human, All Too Human but Twilight if the Idols... On that one I found Liberalism: in other words, herd-animalization. (German: "Liberalismus: auf deutsch Heerden-Verthierung") This, of course, means quite the same: Liberalism turns man into a herd animal, the opposite of the Übermensch. Some kind of "Urban robot" or "human cattle" if you want it that way.

Therefore, the quote only has to be corrected such as it's source (will do that right now)

"Wenn ich mir eine Art Mensch ausdenke, die allen meinen Instinkten zuwiderläuft, so wird immer ein Deutscher daraus."
Couldn't find any english version of Ecce Homo on the net, should be somewhere in "The Case Wagner"(?) - "The problem of the musicians"(?), §4, somewhere at the beginning. My translation would be "Whenever I think of a kind of man, that runs contrary to all my insticts, it becomes a german." Does anyone have the english version of the book to confirm it?
 * Google Books finds the 1992 Penguin Classics edition translated by RJ Hollingdale, who renders it as: "Whenever I picture to myself a type of man that goes against all my instincts it always turns into a German". Gordonofcartoon 23:53, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Bolding
The reason I toned down the bolding is because bolding is supposed to be used to make something stand out (not just: "this is a great quote"), but if you use it too much it won't work, and it will just be harder to read when so much is bolded.

Disputed
I'm a bit new to Wikiquotes. Is the characterization of some of the quotes as "disputed" a stylistic thing, or is it peculiar to this article? The reason why I ask is that I am a Nietzsche scholar and I know of no one who has ever discussed any of those non-quotes, i.e., there is no dispute. If this isn't a standard thing in Wikiquotes I would probably change it because it implies that these remarks are commonly misattributed to Nietzsche, but I don't think that's correct. 96.25.72.119 14:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We do not have rigorous standards for classifying "Disputed" attributions. Ideally there should be citations to dispute in the literature, as you suggest. Some editors do this merely to indicate very weak attributions that they themselves dispute, using it as a middle ground between the generally "Attributed" and the demonstrably "Misattributed." Unfortunately, the latter approach can lead to retaining bogons from the internet that do not circulate in any venue that can be taken seriously in the first place, and ought not be dignified with a rebuttal. If you are confident that something is not attributed widely enough to be considered quotable, then you could boldly remove it, with a brief explanation. Such is the nature of crowdsourcing. ~ Ningauble 15:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Of the 3 quotes that were in that section, I have sourced one that had no citation at all to the third section of "Why I Am So Wise" of Ecce Homo, as translated in The Anti-Christ, Ecce Homo, Twilight of the Idols, and Other Writings (2005) edited by Aaron Ridley and Judith Norman, p. 77. The other two seem to have published citations, but are very dubious, because they appear so late, and neither as yet has any source of translation or original work to cite. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 15:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

inaccurate or wrong?
“We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.”

I love those who do not know how to live for today
This ("I love those who do not know how to live for today") is commonly attributed to Nietzsche but I am unable to find any source. Suspect it may be some condensation of a larger phrase (like the above-mentioned "beware those in whom the urge to punish is strong"). Can anyone help? Gryphoness 09:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I boogled on "live for today" and found this from Twilight of the Idols: "The West in its entirety has lost the sort of instincts that give rise to institutions, that give rise to a future: it might well be that nothing rubs its 'modern spirit' the wrong way more than this. People live for today, people live very fast, - people live very irresponsibly: and this is precisely what people call 'freedom'."
 * Thanks. After a bit more digging, I'm pretty sure it's a variant/modification of this passage from the prologue to Zarathustra: "Man is a rope stretched between the beast and the superhuman - a rope over an abyss. A dangerous crossing, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking back, a dangerous trembling and halting.  What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an going-across and a down-going.  I love those that do not know how to live except as down-goers, for they are the men going across." This "I love those..." is repeated many times throughout the rest of the passage, but this is the closest it gets, and I think that switching that "except as down-goers, for..." into "for today" is a pretty substantial deviation from the original intent. If anyone thinks otherwise I would love to get their thoughts. It may be related to a later statement in the same passage, "I love him who justifies the men of the future, and redeems the men of the past: for he is willing to perish by the men of the present." -- but again it's hard to get the "for today" variant expressly out of that. Gryphoness 09:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

"Overcome for me, you higher men, the little virtues, the little prudence, the sand-grain sized considerations, the detritus of swarming ants, the pitiful contentedness, the “happiness of the greatest number.”!

And despair rather than surrender. And truly, I love you for not knowing how to live today, you higher men! For this you live—best!" Thus Spoke Zarathustra: edited by Adrian Del Caro and Robert Pippin. pg. 233

All truly great thoughts are conceived by walking
Does anyone know the source of this quote? I've tried to google in parts and in german, with no results.

It comes from Twilight of the Idols (Maxims and Arrows 34). However it seems to be from a rather obscure translation or a corruption of the more common translations. "Only thoughts that are won by walking have value" (R. J Hollingdale trans.), "Only thoughts that are reached by walking have value" (Walter Kaufmann trans.), "Only thoughts won by walking are valuable" (Thomas Common trans.)

There is a translation by Judith Norman and another by Richard Polt. Perhaps it comes from one of those. Or perhaps from a commentator.

One might say "only quotes that are properly referenced have any value." This is not because we need to check for accuracy (how accurate can a German to English translation be anyway?), rather we need to find the context of the quote to get something from it.

Is this actually Nietzsche?
I've seen "The most instructive experiences are those of everyday life" all over the place but can't find what book or essay it's from? Is this actually Nietzsche or is it bogus? If it is him where is it from/what is the context?

Can someone please give me a poetic translation
In German (the original quotation ) those who were seen dancing ,thought to be insane by the ones who could not hear the music Nitcheze

 * In German it would be: "Und die, die tanzten, wurden für verrückt erklärt von denen, die die Musik nicht hören konnten." Nietzsche never said that, though. ~ DanielTom (talk) 10:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Ecce Homo, What doesn't kill him...
Someone claims there is a popular paraphrase of that, but the fact is that Nietzsche wrote much earlier in one of his books (I forget which), "From life's school of war: that which does not kill me, makes me stronger." So it's not a paraphrase that people often quote, it simply originates in a different book than Ecce Homo. Mctps (talk) 16:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The book you're referring to is Twilight of the Idols (1888). "Out of life's school of war: What does not destroy me, makes me stronger" is the #8 aphorism of its first chapter "Maxims and Arrows" (Spriiche und Pfeile). ~ DanielTom (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Images stripped out for Google Day
Today the Google doodle points at dear old Frederich - In light of that I thought it would be good if for just one day his quotation page looked professional, and so I've stripped out every one of the ridiculous "illustrative images" that doubtless will be back to mar the page in time, but just for today let it be possible to read the page - WHICH IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO WITH THE IMAGES IN PLACE!

I want to be very clear here - this is not a harmless pecadilo: the profusion of images makes the mobile version of this site entirely unreadable, and completely defeats the purpose of this site.

(note:retroactively eddited for tone)

Jmackaerospace (talk) 03:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Buber's views of Nietzsche
I'd like to discuss the removal of Buber's views of Nietzsche from the "Quotes About Nietzsche" section. Buber is specifically criticizing Nietzsche's doctrine, and is only incidentally discussing greatness. What was the motivation for removing the quote? Thanks for your reply ~ User:peter1c
 * I agree that the Martin Buber quote should be restored here, and will presently do that, but that it also belongs on the Greatness page, and have restored it there as well. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 17:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who removed it. My reasoning was that, frex, Richard Dawkins invented the concept of memes, but that doesn't mean every quote about memes (that doesn't refer to Dawkins) belongs in Richard Dawkins, simply because they're about "his idea". But if Kalki thinks otherwise, perhaps I made the wrong call. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 19:10, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In the case of Nietzsche and the concept of "The Will to Power" — these are so closely identified historically as to be nearly inseparable, and agree with the idea that even a critique of the concept that doesn't mention his name specifically is addressing Nietzsche as well as various historical trends which diverged from his inspired thoughts and ideas. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 19:22, 19 January 2014 (UTC) + tweak

“No more fiction for us: we calculate; but that we may calculate, we had to make fiction first.”
I have been trying to determine the original source of this statement. It is attributed to "Nietzsche" in a chapter epigram in Tobias Dantzig’s Number, the Language of Science (fourth edition, Doubleday, NY, 1954) p 141. It has become popular on quotation web sites, usually without attribution. I cannot find any credible primary source in Nietzsche's publications. Dantzig did not provide any citations for his other epigrams, but as a respected academic probably would not have invented them. He was probably a reader of German and may have provided his own translation from an original text.

I queried Ian Ellis (Today in Science History) about this, and here's what he said: "I notice that in new edition of Gaither's Dictionary of Scientific Quotations C. C. Gaither, A. E. Cavazos-Gaither (which diligently gives attributions) the authors must have been stumped: they cite the same 1954 book that you did, Tobias Dantzig’s Number, the Language of Science, Chap 8, p. 139. Of course quote this is a translation. Pity the original German isn't available to search for on Google. I've taken a quick stab using Google books and the JSTOR journal database, and come up empty-handed."

If anyone can help to solve this puzzle, please do.Atester (talk)

 * You are correct, this quote originated with this attribution in Dantizig's Number, the Language of Science, which reads:
 * "No more fiction for us: we calculate; but that we may calculate, we had to make fiction first."—Nietzsche
 * The question is, where did Dantizig get this idea from? What is Nietzsche's original quotation? I think the answer might be in the following passage, taken from his Will to Power—
 * "Gegen das physikalische Atom. – Um die Welt zu begreifen, müssen wir sie berechnen können; um sie berechnen zu können, müssen wir constante Ursachen haben; weil wir in der Wirklichkeit keine solchen constanten Ursachen finden, erdichten wir uns welche – die Atome. Dies ist die Herkunft der Atomistik." [in German ]
 * Here Nietzsche is saying, that for us to be able to understand the world, we must be able to calculate it, and this is only possible if there are "permanent causes"—but since in reality "permanent causes" do not exist, we must invent them, or imagine them. Now, this seems to me to be identical, at least in spirit, to the quote attributed to Nietzsche by Dantizig. A more professional translation of Nietzsche's afore-cited words can be found here:
 * Against the physical atom.—In order to understand the world, we must be able to reckon it up; in order to be able to reckon it up, we must be aware of constant causes; but since we find no such constant causes in reality, we invent them for ourselves and call them atoms. [trans. Ludovici (1910)]
 * The "fiction" referred to in the first quotation (attribution by Dantizig) thus seems to be, in the original, the concept of the "atom", though the principle be universal. (Did I solve the puzzle?) ~ DanielTom (talk) 16:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an expert, but it certainly seems you've found the original source. Dantzig appears to have taken poetic license to make this paradox clear and memorable. I'm satisfied that the original language is as you suggest and will add this to the main page, unless there are objections. Thank you - this has been bugging me for years! Atester (talk)

Mathematics ...
"Mathematics would certainly have not come into existence if one had known from the beginning that there was in nature no exactly straight line, no actual circle, no absolute magnitude.", did Nietzsche actually say this, i cant seem to find any sources online.

As quoted in The Puzzle Instinct : The Meaning of Puzzles in Human Life (2004) by Marcel Danesi, p. 71 from Human All-Too-Human, but i cant find the original nietzsche source....if someone can get back to me id appreciate that!

 * It is from Nietzsche's Human All-Too-Human, I., 11—
 * ... Mathematik, welche gewiss nicht entstanden wäre, wenn man von Anfang an gewusst hätte, dass es in der Natur keine exact gerade Linie, keinen wirklichen Kreis, kein absolutes Grössenmaass gebe.
 * Helen Zimmern's translation: "Mathematics [...] would certainly not have arisen if it had been known from the beginning that in Nature there are no exactly straight lines, no real circle, no absolute standard of size." See here. Cheers, DanielTom (talk) 18:16, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Another unsourced quote
Where does the famous quote "You who hate the Jews so, why did you adopt their religion?" come from? It's all over the web, but no one has a documented source. It deserves to be in the "attributed" section at the very least, and possibly in the misattributed section if a proper source other than Nietzsche can be found. Even if it can be linked to Nietzsche, it most likely comes from a second or third-hand story rather than Nietzsche's own writings. But it would still be nice to know of any documented source.

Die fröhliche Wissenschaft
The standard, modern translation of "Froeliche" is "Merry," and not "Gay." If referring to a specific American addition that used The Gay Science as its title, then this should indeed be used. Otherwise, if offering a translation of it unencumbered by earlier usage, "Merry" is the more appropriate, more accurate, and less misleading of translations, given the current connotations of the American English words. 73.211.138.148 22:54, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

 * "Joyful" is another good translation for fröhliche. Of course translating Wissenschaft as "science" is also problematic, since the German term does not refer exclusively to natural science, but also to the humanistic disciplines. ~ Peter1c (talk) 23:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Ordering of images
I am creating a section here to discuss the ordering of images on the page, since there seems to have been some disagreement. I would suggest that putting images in the section where their caption comes from is not necessary, and in fact only leads to the reader encountering the same quote in rapid succession. I suggest that the ordering of the images should be based on the discretion of the editors as to how important the images and captions are. We can discuss that here. I don't think the quote about punishment deserves top billing because, while it is interesting, it is a very specific position, and doesn't reflect the breadth of Nietzsche's thought. I recommended the quotes from Untimely Meditations for the top positions because they are easy to understand for non-philosophers, because they are inspirational, and because they are widely quoted. But I am open to other suggestions. I would hope that we can discuss the issue here and reach a consensus. ~ Peter1c (talk) 02:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"
I've heard this quote and found it very often attributed to Nietzsche, but I haven't seen a citation anywhere. I'm very new to hunting down the origins of quotes, or at least I don't do it very often, so please be gentle. Any pointers on how to track it down? Elvisdumbledore (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm not upset that you lied to me. ...
I have seen the quote: “I'm not upset that you lied to me. I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” attributed to Nietzche. Can this be verified or falsified? Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

—————

 * The quote is somewhat attributable to Nietzsche, even if the word choice possibly isn’t true to his intentions/context.

 * Check out Aphorism #183 toward the end of Chapter IV in “Beyond Good and Evil”. In the original, it is “Nicht daß du mich belogst, sondern daß ich dir nicht mehr glaube, hat mich erschüttert.“

 * I think it comes down to translation, because different sources translate it differently. Walter Kaufman is a widely respected Nietzsche scholar, and his translation is as follows:

 * “Not that you lied to me but that I no longer believe you has shaken me.”

 * Perhaps the quote could be added here: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil

LemonyVizuals (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

solamente deutsche! oy gevalt
missing entirely from wiki is his great self-declaration, spoken while rather drunk: "ich bin solemente deutsche und espanol a veces!"

There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it.
"There are horrible people who, instead of solving a problem, tangle it up and make it harder to solve for anyone who wants to deal with it.  Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all."

I see the above quote mentioned in various lists of quotations, attributing it to Nietzsche, but I have not found a source. If the source is Nietzsche, can someone add the quote and its source? If someone familiar with Nietzsche's work believes that he was not the source, perhaps this should be added to the misquoted section.

Aphorism 326 "DON'T TOUCH. There are dreadful people who, instead of solving a problem, complicate it for those who deal with it and make it harder to solve. Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be entreated not to hit the nail at all." - Human, All Too Human Part II, The Wanderer and His Shadow (1880) --Maarley (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

A bad conscience is easier to cope with than a bad reputation.
" A bad conscience is easier to cope with than a bad reputation. " ~ Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882)

Discovered via end quote of YouTube video: Pamela Geller is SUING Mayor De Blasio - Lawyer Explains - Viva Frei Vlawg (16:36) ~ Viva Frei, 2020-05-09, and is apparently abundant on image quote memes. Also on Reddit. I have no book to verify. ~ JasonCarswell (talk)

"...for the recreation of the warrior"
I was a little surprised to see "Man should be trained for war and woman for the recreation of the warrior: all else is folly" in the "disputed" section. This is from Zarathustra, the chapter "Of Old and Young Women", page 91 of my Penguin edition (tr. Hollingdale), near the bottom of the page. Hard copy, not using the internet. Antandrus (talk) 16:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Followup: I removed this from the "disputed" section and added it to Thus Spake Zarathustra (it's Part I, book 18, v. 13). Antandrus (talk) 00:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"German atheists" categorization
Nietzsche is placed into this category, but as we can see by the discussion on this page, whether this is a proper classification for him is disputed. I am also aware of no time in which Nietzsche called himself an atheist. I think he should be removed from this category as doing so violates NPOV, but this is too big a change for me to simply do on my own without discussion. NShadow2023 (talk) 23:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche


text:
Alan Turing

Alan Mathison Turing (23 June 1912 – 7 June 1954) was an English mathematician, computer scientist, logician, cryptanalyst, philosopher, and theoretical biologist. Turing was highly influential in the development of theoretical computer science, providing a formalisation of the concepts of algorithm and computation with the Turing machine, which can be considered a model of a general-purpose computer. Turing is widely considered to be the father of theoretical computer science and artificial intelligence.

Quotes

 * Mathematical reasoning may be regarded rather schematically as the exercise of a combination of two facilities, which we may call intuition and ingenuity. The activity of the intuition consists in making spontaneous judgements which are not the result of conscious trains of reasoning... The exercise of ingenuity in mathematics consists in aiding the intuition through suitable arrangements of propositions, and perhaps geometrical figures or drawings.
 * "Systems of Logic Based on Ordinals," section 11: The purpose of ordinal logics (1938), published in Proceedings of the London Mathematical Society, series 2, vol. 45 (1939)
 * In a footnote to the first sentence, Turing added: "We are leaving out of account that most important faculty which distinguishes topics of interest from others; in fact, we are regarding the function of the mathematician as simply to determine the truth or falsity of propositions."

 * Instruction tables will have to be made up by mathematicians with computing experience and perhaps a certain puzzle-solving ability. There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself.
 * "Proposed Electronic Calculator" (1946), a report for National Physical Laboratory, Teddington; published in A. M. Turing's ACE Report of 1946 and Other Papers (1986), edited by B. E. Carpenter and R. W. Doran, and in The Collected Works of A. M. Turing (1992), edited by D. C. Ince, Vol. 3.

 * A man provided with paper, pencil, and rubber, and subject to strict discipline, is in effect a universal machine.
 * "Intelligent Machinery: A Report by A. M. Turing," (Summer 1948), submitted to the National Physical Laboratory (1948) and published in Key Papers: Cybernetics, ed. C. R. Evans and A. D. J. Robertson (1968) and, in variant form, in Machine Intelligence 5, ed. B. Meltzer and D. Michie (1969).

 * There is a remarkably close parallel between the problems of the physicist and those of the cryptographer. The system on which a message is enciphered corresponds to the laws of the universe, the intercepted messages to the evidence available, the keys for a day or a message to important constants which have to be determined. The correspondence is very close, but the subject matter of cryptography is very easily dealt with by discrete machinery, physics not so easily.
 * "Intelligent Machinery." This passage was one of the epigraphs to Cryptonomicon, the influential novel by Neal Stephenson, in which Turing was a fictionalized character. It shared a page with a quote from Imelda Marcos.

 * This is only a foretaste of what is to come, and only the shadow of what is going to be. We have to have some experience with the machine before we really know its capabilities. It may take years before we settle down to the new possibilities, but I do not see why it should not enter any one of the fields normally covered by the human intellect, and eventually compete on equal terms.
 * 'The Mechanical Brain. Answer Found to 300 Year Old Problem' The Times newspaper, 11 June 1949 page 4 column 5.
 * The sentence in bold appears on the latest British £50 bank note featuring Alan Turing which was released on 23 June 2021 on what would have been his 109th birthday.

 * Science is a differential equation. Religion is a boundary condition.
 * Epigram to Robin Gandy (1954); reprinted in Andrew Hodges, Alan Turing: the Enigma (Vintage edition 1992), p. 513.

 * The Exclusion Principle is laid down purely for the benefit of the electrons themselves, who might be corrupted (and become dragons or demons) if allowed to associate too freely.
 * Epigram to Robin Gandy (1954).
 * Let us now assume, for the sake of argument, that these machines are a genuine possibility, and look at the consequences of constructing them. To do so would of course meet with great opposition, unless we have advanced greatly in religious toleration from the days of Galileo. There would be great opposition from the intellectuals who were afraid of being put out of a job. It is probable though that the intellectuals would be mistaken about this. There would be plenty to do, trying to understand what the machines were trying to say, i.e. in trying to keep one’s intelligence up to the standard set by the machines, for it seems probable that once the machine thinking method had started, it would not take long to outstrip our feeble powers. There would be no question of the machines dying, and they would be able to converse with each other to sharpen their wits. At some stage therefore we should have to expect the machines to take control, in the way that is mentioned in Samuel Butler’s “Erewhon”.
 * "Intelligent Machinery, A Heretical Theory" (1951), from a BBC radio discussion programme, The ’51 Society.

On Computable Numbers, with an Application to the Entscheidungsproblem (1936)

 * Proceedings of the London Mathematical Society, Vol. 2-42, Issue 1, pp. 230-265. Note: also see &.

 * The "computable" numbers may be described briefly as the real numbers whose expressions as a decimal are calculable by finite means. ...According to my definition, a number is computable if its decimal can be written down by a machine. ...I show that certain large classes of numbers are computable. They include, for instance, the real parts of all s, the real parts of the zeros of the Bessel functions, the numbers π, e, etc. The computable numbers do not, however, include all definable numbers. ...[C]onclusions are reached which are superficially similar to those of Gödel. ...[I]t is shown ...that the Hilbertian can have no solution. In a recent paper ...  reaches similar conclusions...

 * We may compare a man in the process of computing a real number to a machine which is only capable of a finite number of conditions q1, q2, ..., qK which will be called " m-configurations ".

 * The machine is supplied with a "tape" (the analogue of paper) running through it, and divided into sections (called "squares") each capable of bearing a "symbol".

 * The "scanned symbol" is the only one of which the machine is... "directly aware". However, by altering its m-configuration the machine can effectively remember some of the symbols which it has "seen" (scanned) previously.

 * In some of the configurations in which the scanned square is blank... the machine writes down a new symbol on the scanned square: in other configurations it erases the scanned symbol.

 * The machine may also change the square which is being scanned, but only by shifting it one place to right or left.

 * [T]he m-configuration may be changed.

 * Some of the symbols written down will form the sequence of figures which is the decimal of the real number... being computed. The others are just rough notes to "assist the memory ". ...[O]nly ...these rough notes ...will be liable to erasure.

 * [T]hese operations include all those which are used in the computation...

 * For some purposes we might use machines (choice... or c-machines) whose motion is only partially determined by the configuration... When such a machine reaches... ambiguous configurations, it cannot go on until some arbitrary choice has been made by an external operator. This would be the case if we were using machines to deal with axiomatic systems.

 * In this paper I deal only with automatic machines, and will therefore often omit the prefix ɑ-.

 * If an ɑ-machine prints two kinds of symbols, of which the first kind (called figures) consists entirely of 0 and 1 (the others being called symbols of the second kind), then the machine will be called a computing machine.

m-config. | Symbol | Operations | Final m-config. In this way we obtain a complete description of the machine. ...This new description of the machine may be called the standard description (S.D). ...[W]e shall have a description of the machine in the form of an arabic numeral. The integer represented by this numeral may be called a description number (D.N) of the machine. The D.N determine the S.D and the structure of the machine uniquely. The machine whose D.N is n may be described as $$\mathcal{M}$$(n).
 * It will be useful to put... tables into a... standard form. ...The lines of the table are... of form

 * To each computable sequence there corresponds at least one description number, while to no description number does there correspond more than one computable sequence. The computable sequences and numbers are therefore enumerable.

 * It is possible to invent a single machine which can be used to compute any computable sequence. If this machine $$\mathcal{U}$$ is supplied with a tape on the beginning of which is written the S.D of some computing machine $$\mathcal{M}$$, then $$\mathcal{U}$$ will compute  the  same  sequence  as $$\mathcal{M}$$.

Computing Machinery and Intelligence (1950)

 * Published in Mind – A Quarterly Review of Psychology and Philosophy, vol. 59, #236 (1950). This paper describes what has come to be known as the Turing Test. At the time it was written, the term "computer" was a job title describing an individual who processed figures by hand. - Full text online

 * "Can machines think?"... The new form of the problem can be described in terms of a game which we call the 'imitation game." It is played with three people, a man (A), a woman (B), and an interrogator (C) who may be of either sex. The interrogator stays in a room apart from the other two. The object of the game for the interrogator is to determine which of the other two is the man and which is the woman. He knows them by labels X and Y, and at the end of the game he says either "X is A and Y is B" or "X is B and Y is A." The interrogator is allowed to put questions to A and B... We now ask the question, "What will happen when a machine takes the part of A in this game?" Will the interrogator decide wrongly as often when the game is played like this as he does when the game is played between a man and a woman? These questions replace our original, "Can machines think?"

 * We do not wish to penalise the machine for its inability to shine in beauty competitions, nor to penalise a man for losing in a race against an aeroplane. The conditions of our game make these disabilities irrelevant.

 * May not machines carry out something which ought to be described as thinking but which is very different from what a man does?

 * We are not asking whether all digital computers would do well in the game nor whether the computers at present available would do well, but whether there are imaginable computers which would do well.

 * The idea behind digital computers may be explained by saying that these machines are intended to carry out any operations which could be done by a human computer.
 * p. 436.

 * A digital computer can usually be regarded as consisting of three parts: (i) Store. (ii) Executive unit. (iii) Control. ...The executive unit is the part which carries out the various individual operations involved in a calculation. ...It is the duty of the control to see that...[the table of] instructions are obeyed correctly and in the right order. ...A typical instruction might say—"Add the number stored in position 6809 to that in 4302 and put the result back into the latter storage position." Needless to say it would not occur in the machine expressed in English. It would more likely be coded in a form such as 6809430217. Here 17 says which of various possible operations [add] is to be performed on the two numbers. ...It will be noticed that the instruction takes up 10 digits and so forms one packet of information...

 * Suppose Mother wants Tommy to call at the cobbler's every morning on his way to school to see if her shoes are done, she can ask him afresh every morning. Alternatively she can stick up a notice once and for all in the hall which he will see when he leaves for school and which tells him to call for the shoes, and also to destroy the notice when he comes back if he has the shoes with him.

 * If one wants to make a machine mimic the behaviour of the human computer in some complex operation one has to ask him how it is done, and then translate the answer into the form of an instruction table. Constructing instruction tables is usually described as "programming."

 * I believe that at the end of the century the use of words and general educated opinion will have altered so much that one will be able to speak of machines thinking without expecting to be contradicted.
 * p. 442.

 * I am not very impressed with theological arguments whatever they may be used to support. Such arguments have often been found unsatisfactory in the past. In the time of Galileo it was argued that the texts, "And the sun stood still... and hasted not to go down about a whole day" (Joshua x. 13) and "He laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not move at any time" (Psalm cv. 5) were an adequate refutation of the Copernican theory.
 * pp. 443-444.

 * Machines take me by surprise with great frequency.
 * p. 450.

 * The view that machines cannot give rise to surprises is due, I believe, to a fallacy to which philosophers and mathematicians are particularly subject. This is the assumption that as soon as a fact is presented to a mind all consequences of that fact spring into the mind simultaneously with it. It is a very useful assumption under many circumstances, but one too easily forgets that it is false. A natural consequence of doing so is that one then assumes that there is no virtue in the mere working out of consequences from data and general principles.
 * p. 451.

 * Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than critical size: an injected idea is to correspond to a neutron entering the pile from without. Each such neutron will cause a certain disturbance which eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile is sufficiently increased, the disturbance caused by such an incoming neutron will very likely go on and on increasing until the whole pile is destroyed. Is there a corresponding phenomenon for minds, and is there one for machines? There does seem to be one for the human mind. The majority of them seem to be "sub-critical," i.e., to correspond in this analogy to piles of sub-critical size. An idea presented to such a mind will on average give rise to less than one idea in reply. A smallish proportion are super-critical. An idea presented to such a mind may give rise to a whole "theory" consisting of secondary, tertiary and more remote ideas. Animals minds seem to be very definitely sub-critical. Adhering to this analogy we ask, "Can a machine be made to be super-critical?"
 * p. 454.

 * Presumably the child-brain is something like a note-book as one buys it from the stationer's. Rather little mechanism, and lots of blank sheets.
 * p. 456.

 * We can only see a short distance ahead, but we can see plenty there that needs to be done.
 * p. 460.

'Can digital computers think?' (1951)

 * It is customary... to offer a grain of comfort, in the form of a statement that some peculiarly human characteristic could never be imitated by a machine. ... I cannot offer any such comfort, for I believe that no such bounds can be set.
 * 'Can digital computers think?'. Talk broadcast on BBC Third Programme, 15 May 1951.

Quotes about Turing

 * Sorted alphabetically by author or source

 * Alan Turing was the first to make a careful analysis of the potential capabilities of machines, inventing his famous "Turing machines" for the purpose. He argued that if any machine could perform a computation, then some Turing machine could perform it. The argument focuses on the assertion that any machine's operations could be simulated, one step at a time, by certain simple operations, and that Turing machines were capable of those simple operations. Turing's first fame resulted from applying this analysis to a problem posed earlier by Hilbert, which concerned the possibility of mechanizing mathematics. Turing showed that in a certain sense, it is impossible to mechanize mathematics: We shall never be able to build an "oracle" machine that can correctly answer all mathematical questions presented to it with a "yes" or "no" answer. In another famous paper Turing went on to consider the somewhat different question, "Can machines think?." It is a different question, because perhaps machines can think, but they might not be any better at mathematics than humans are; or perhaps they might be better at mathematics than humans are, but not by thinking, just by brute-force calculation power. These two papers of Turing lie near the roots of the subjects today known as automated deduction and artificial intelligence.
 * Michael J. Beeson, "The Mechanization of Mathematics," in Alan Turing: Life and Legacy of a Great Thinker (2004).

 * I’d keep hearing: 'Oh, Alan Turing? Wasn’t he something to do with Bletchley Park? Didn’t he create the Apple logo? Didn’t he bite an apple?' But not many people know the whole story, that he invented the computer, broke the Enigma code, was prosecuted for being a homosexual and underwent a year of oestrogen injections before dying in 1954. The irony and sickness of it was extraordinary! He wasn’t shouting from the rooftops or trying to start a cause, he was just a man who was gay. He’s such a quiet hero.
 * Benedict Cumberbatch, "Benedict Cumberbatch interview" in TimeOut (21 November 2016)

 * Beyond any doubt, the most important thing that has happened in cognitive science was Turing’s invention of the notion of mechanical rationality.
 * Jerry Fodor, "The Trouble with Psychological Darwinism" London Review of Books, Vol. 20 No. 2, 22 January 1998, pp.11-13.

 * And if the physicists who understood its potential had not told their generals and politicians, these would certainly have remained in ignorance, unless they were themselves postgraduate physicists, which was very unlikely. Again, Alan Turing's celebrated paper of 1935, which was to provide the foundation of modern computer theory, was originally written as a speculative exploration for mathematical logicians. The war gave him and others the occasion to translate theory into the beginnings of practice for the purpose of code-breaking, but when it appeared nobody except a handful of mathematicians even read, let alone took notice of Turing's paper. Even in his own college this clumsy-looking pale-faced genius, then a junior fellow with a taste for jogging, who posthumously became a sort of icon among homosexuals, was not a figure of any prominence; at least I do not remember him as such.
 * Eric Hobsbawm, Age of Extremes (1994), Chap. 18 : Sorcerers and Apprentices: The Natural Sciences

 * Actually, with one alleged exception, the links of King’s dons with intelligence were with the British rather than the Soviet secret services. Kingsmen, headed by the small, roly-poly later professor of ancient history, F. E. Adcock, had set up the British codebreaking establishment in the First World War, and at least seventeen King’s dons were recruited by Adcock for the much more famous establishment at Bletchley during the Second World War, including probably the only genius at King’s in my undergraduate years, the mathematical logician Alan Turing, whom I recall as a clumsy-looking, pale-faced young fellow given to what would today be called jogging.
 * Eric Hobsbawm, Interesting Times (2002), Chap. 7 : Cambridge

And so I always dreamt of writing something about him, and I thought that there had never been a proper narrative treatment of his life, that he deserved. I by chance met the producers of the film at a party, and one of them told me they had optioned a biography. When I asked who it was, they said, ‘it’s a mathematician that you’ve never heard of.’ When they told me it was Alan Turing, I almost tackled them, and I told them I’d do anything to write this film, I’d write it for free. It was all about luck and passion.
 * From a very young age, I knew about the legend of Alan Turing – among awkward, nerdy teenagers, he is a patron saint. He never fit in, but accomplished these wonderful things, as part of a secret queer history of computer science.
 * Graham Moore, as quoted in "Interview: Morten Tyldum, Graham Moore of The Imitation Game" by PatrickMcD at Hollywood Chicago (11 December 2014).

 * Here’s the thing. Alan Turing never got to stand on a stage like this and look out at all of these disconcertingly attractive faces. I do. And that’s the most unfair thing I’ve ever heard. So in this brief time here, what I wanted to do was say this: When I was 16-years-old, I tried to kill myself because I felt weird and I felt different, and I felt like I did not belong. And now I’m standing here — and so I would like this moment to be for this kid out there who feels like she’s weird or she’s different or she doesn’t fit in anywhere: Yes, you do. I promise you do. Stay weird, stay different — and then, when it’s your turn, and you are standing on this stage, please pass the same message to the next person who comes along.
 * Graham Moore, in his acceptance speech for best adapted screenplay at the 87th Academy Awards presentations, quoted in "Oscars 2015: Graham Moore Tells Kids to 'Stay Weird, Stay Different'" in ABC News (22 February 2015).

 * I’m not gay, but I don’t think you have to be gay to have a gay hero. Growing up, Alan Turing was certainly mine. … I’m also not the greatest mathematician of my generation. We have lots of biographical differences, but nonetheless I always identified with him so much.
 * Graham Moore, as quoted in "Imitation Game scribe Graham Moore: 'You don't have to be gay to have a gay hero'" in Entertainment Weekly (24 February 2015).

 * His high-pitched voice already stood out above the general murmur of well-behaved junior executives grooming themselves for promotion within the Bell corporation. Then he was suddenly heard to say: "No, I'm not interested in developing a powerful brain. All I'm after is just a mediocre brain, something like the President of the American Telephone and Telegraph Company."
 * Andrew Hodges, describing an incident which occurred in the New York AT & T lab cafeteria in 1943, in Alan Turing: The Enigma of Intelligence (1983), p. 251.

 * He wondered what one might ask in a structured conversation to decide if one's interlocutor was a human being or a computer. ...but the ultimate Turing test might be to pose the question "How would a guilt-stricken homosexual commit suicide?" Would a computer ever conceive of eating an apple laced with cyanide?
 * Theodore Roszak, The Gendered Atom (1999).

 * Although a mathematician, Turing took quite an interest in the engineering side of computer design. There was some discussion in 1947 as to whether a cheaper substance than mercury could not be found for use as an ultrasonic delay medium. Turing's contribution to this discussion was to advocate the use of gin, which he said contained alcohol and water in just the right proportions to give a zero temperature coefficient of propagation velocity at room temperature.
 * Maurice V. Wilkes, "Computers Then and Now", Journal of the ACM 15 (1), (January 1968), pp. 1-7.

 * Turing had a strong predeliction for working things out from first principles, usually in the first instance without consulting any previous work on the subject, and no doubt it was this habit which gave his work that characteristically original flavor. I was reminded of a remark which Beethoven is reputed to have made when he was asked if he had heard a certain work of Mozart which was attracting much attention. He replied that he had not, and added "neither shall I do so, lest I forfeit some of my own originality."
 * James H. Wilkinson, "Some Comments from a Numerical Analyst", 1970 Turing Award lecture, Journal of the ACM 18:2 (February 1971), pp. 137–147.

 * He was particularly fond of little programming tricks (some people would say that he was too fond of them to be a "good" programmer) and would chuckle with boyish good humor at any little tricks I may have used.
 * James H. Wilkinson, "Some Comments from a Numerical Analyst", 1970 Turing Award lecture, Journal of the ACM 18:2 (February 1971), pp. 137–147.

title: Alan Turing


text:
Jonathan Davis

Jonathan Davis (born January 18, 1971), vocalist of KoRn.

 * "We'll probably just play the greatest hits set again, give the people the shit they want to hear." (from a 2008 interview)

 * "Some people are desperately looking for scapegoats, they just don't want to see the truth!" (Jon commenting on the parents that blame music for the violence.)

 * "The kids out there want something they can relate to, something that's real; most of that whiny stuff isn't real. The cheesy pop songs just bore me to death." (commenting on how he feels about rock and pop.)

 * "It's my purse."(talking about his sporran)

 * "If he gets into drugs or something stupid like that, then I'll kick his ass, but otherwise he's got to live his life, even now." (talking about son and parenthood.)

 * "The music industry can make you feel like a prostitute."

 * "The fans have been really incredible everywhere we've been....You want to make sure you put on the best concert of your life to show them how appreciative you are."

 * "People die from typewriters falling on their heads." (talking about taking chances because you can die at any moment.)

 * "They're all, 'Dude, we're sorry. We were just kids. Your know how kids are. Growing up' and I'm just like "Shut up!'" (talking about when he meets people from his high school.)

 * "I like reading Ball Tongue lyrics and all that stuff. And they published a book, and I wouldn't give my lyrics, and it's all wrong in the book, and I giggle. It's funny."

 * "When you’re really depressed it's good to hear someone be hurt too, when I get depressed I listen to my own fucking music. I put us on." (on his suicidal tendencies.)

 * "I think I'm a clinical worrier, I worry about everything and I've always been that way. I want to make sure that everything works out as planned and I just get lost in my worries and fears. As if that isn't enough, I also worry about everybody else and try to carry their burden. It's like I'm trying to carry the weight of the whole world on my shoulders."

 * "You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same."
 * Also sometimes attributed to Kurt Cobain

"We're not trying to change the world; just music."

"I don't know the true meaning of happiness." (on the Diary of Korn.)

"That practice was TAIYT." ["Tight" said in a strange way]

"I don't care what people think or say about me, I know who I am."

"A lot of people don't realize that depression is an illness. I don't wish it on anyone, but if they would know how it feels, I swear they would think twice before they just shrug it.."

"When I listen to music, I don't want to hear about flowers. I like death and destruction." (From Entertainment Weekly.)

 * [When asked if he is going to go to his high school reunion] "Yeah, I can't wait. I'm going to show up in a helicopter."

"Yeah, I am pissed off that I inherited it. I wish sometimes that I was born back in the day. But today's society is so fucked up...we gotta thank the parents for doing that to the kids." (Talking about the violence kids today have to face, and why they look up to Jon while their parents dislike him.)

"It is quite annoying that we have to change the sound we invented just to avoid sounding like people who simply copy us, but...it is flattering and of course challenging."

"When you were a kid and you heard the F-word in a song, you'd rewind it 100 times just to hear them say it. So we said, 'Lets put as many cuss words in one song as we could possibly do, And I guarantee little kids that are fuckin' ten years old are freaking out on that song." (About K@#/%.)

"I don't believe in organized religion - I dealt with them hand in hand, and a whole bunch of Catholic priests tried to molest me, telling me I was gay and I should go home with them and stuff."

"Gaming for me is a religion and Haze is the shit! I had to come up with a track that can hit up that kind of rush I get from the game and I think we really rocked it!!" (when selling out)

"There are a lot of fans really emotionally attached to the lyrics and intensity of the music. We get countless emails from kids saying, 'Thank you so much for your band. If it wasn't for you guys, I would have killed myself.'"

title: Jonathan Davis