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Arrested Development

Arrested Development is a character-driven comedy television series about a wealthy but dysfunctional family that aired on FOX for three seasons. The show is presented like a documentary, complete with narration, archival photos and historical footage. In 2014, Netflix bought the rights to the show, and produced two additional seasons for it.

Pilot [1.1]

 * Gob: Are those police boats? [house band does a rimshot, as if GOB was joking] No, seriously, I think those are police boats.
 * George Michael: I knew it was against the law.
 * George Sr.: That's the Securities and Exchange Commission.
 * Buster: They have boats?

 * Michael: I thought Buster had everything under control. I thought you've been going in to the office.
 * Buster: Yes, and I've enjoyed that. It's just that I was constantly being called to the phone, or I was asked a question, or I was being resuscitated and it was really hard to get a good work flow going.

 * Gob: Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money. [GOB notices children in earshot] ...Or candy!

 * [From the extended pilot]
 * Gob: Not tricks, Michael, illusions. A trick is something a whore does for money. [GOB notices children in earshot] ...Or cocaine!

 * Buster: Well clearly the blue part is the land.

 * Michael: Okay, guys, um... they are going to keep Dad in prison at least until this gets all sorted out. Also, the attorney said that they’re going to have to put a halt on the company’s expense account. [The others gasp.] Interesting. I would’ve expected that after "They’re keeping Dad in jail."

 * Michael: What have we always said is the most important thing?
 * George Michael: Breakfast!
 * Michael: ...No. Family.
 * George Michael: Oh right! I thought you meant of the things you eat.

 * Lucille: If you're saying I play favorites, you're wrong. I love all my children equally.
 * [Flashback to that morning]
 * Lucille: I don't care for Gob.

 * Narrator: Then, mistaking a group of garishly dressed men for pirates, Tobias boarded a van full of homosexuals.

Top Banana [1.2]

 * George Sr.: This is my vacation, Michael.
 * Michael: You're doing time, Dad.
 * George Sr.: I'm doing the time... of my life!

 * Lucille Bluth: You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

 * Gob: I should be in charge. I’m the older brother.
 * Michael: Do you even want to be in charge?
 * Gob: No... but I'd like to be asked!

 * George Sr.: [repeatedly] There's always money in the banana stand.
 * George Sr.: There was $250,000 lining the walls of the banana stand!
 * Michael: What?
 * George Sr.: Cash, Michael.
 * Michael: Why didn't you tell me that?
 * George Sr.: How much clearer can I say it: "THERE IS ALWAYS MONEY IN THE BANANA STAND!"
 * Prison Guard: NO TOUCHING!
 * George Sr.: NO TOUCHING!
 * George Sr.: NO TOUCHING!

Bringing Up Buster [1.3]

 * George Sr.: [regarding Buster] Maybe it was the eleven months he spent in the womb. The doctor said there were claw marks on the walls of her uterus. But he was her "miracle baby." And I — I was just too burnt out on raising you guys to care. So ... he turned out a little soft, you know... a little doughy... I dunno. Maybe it was my fault. Maybe. Maybe I just ignored the guy. [the camera slow zooms out to show Buster sitting between Michael and George Sr.]
 * Buster: [After yawning for a long time] Wow. We're just blowing through nap time, aren't we?

 * Gob: Let me ask you something. Is this a business decision, or is it personal? 'Cause if it's business I'll go away happily. But if it's personal, I'll go away... but I won't be happy.
 * Michael: It's personal.

 * Steve Holt: Steve Holt!

Key Decisions [1.4]

 * Lindsay: I care deeply for nature.
 * Michael: You're wearing ostrich-skin boots.
 * Lindsay: Well, I don't care about ostriches.

 * Lucille Bluth: I'll be in the hospital bar.
 * Michael: Uh, you know there isn't a hospital bar, Mother.
 * Lucille: Well, this is why people hate hospitals. [Cackles at her own wit]

 * Buster: She's just wigged out because I have a girlfriend.
 * Lucille: A waiter hands him a note and suddenly he's Steve McQueen. He doesn't even know what she looks like.
 * Buster: I know that she's a brownish area with points.

 * Michael: You're just jumping right into this, huh?
 * Buster: That's what you do when life hands you a chance to be with someone special. You just grab that brownish area by its points and you don't let go no matter what your mom says.

 * Prison warden: You really think you can break out of my prison?
 * Gob: You won't even know I was here.
 * Narrator: The warden was intrigued. Less about the stunt, and more about the prison beatings this brash magician was sure to receive.

 * Michael: Hey, speaking of kidding, How serious are you about Marta? I get the sense that there’s not much of a future there. Am I reading that right?
 * Gob: [from inside the prison] Let me ask you something. How would you feel if I came down on you hard?
 * Michael: You're saying I'm not reading this right.
 * Gob: No, I'm saying move the bike. I need to jump on you to break my fall.

 * Marta: I just couldn't find my keys.
 * Michael: Well, my brother may have eaten them.

Visiting Ours [1.5]

 * Gob: Take off your glasses. Oh... wait, wait. Let down your hair. No: glasses on, hair back up. Let's just get that hair right back up.
 * Kitty: Let me turn the lights off.
 * Gob: Yes, yes, please.
 * Kitty: How's that? Is that better?
 * Gob: It just seems like there's still light coming in from under the door.

 * George Sr.: I just haven't had sex in a month.
 * Michael: You know, you've been here two months.
 * George Sr.: It's hard to gauge time.
 * Michael: Yeah, I'll bet.

 * Gob: I [bleep]ed Kitty!
 * Michael: Gob! I just wanted you to get the information.
 * Gob: I got the information.
 * Michael: You did, huh? About the international accounts?
 * Gob: Oh, I see what you're getting at. No, I didn't get any information.

 * Kitty: Gob? I wish I would have know you were coming. I am a mess.
 * Gob: I don't know if a call from me would've changed that.

 * Kitty: Do you like my outfit?
 * Gob: Not as much as I like what's underneath it.
 * Kitty: Gob!
 * Gob: No, I need your chair. Get up.

Charity Drive [1.6]

 * Michael: Come on, face it. You just do all this charity crap just to stroke your ego. You don't even know what the auction's for tonight.
 * Lindsay: The wetlands.
 * Michael: To do what with them?
 * Lindsay: Dry them.
 * Michael: Save them.
 * Lindsay: From drying.

 * Lindsay: Look, I screwed up, ok? I'm lost, and I hate them. I hate the Wetlands. They're stupid and wet, and there are bugs everywhere, and I think I maced a crane, Michael.

 * Narrator: Tobias had intended to park the family’s only vehicle at the airport parking lot, but was waved onto the tarmac instead, where he found a spot close to his gate.

 * Lucille: Supposedly, Luz had to take her daughter to the hospital. That’s Lupe, her sister.
 * Michael: I hope she’s okay.
 * Lucille: She’s awful. Can barely wash a dish.

 * Lindsay: (loudly) Well, how embarrassing. My own brother buying me? I'd rather die. (whispers to Michael) Thank you. Maybe you're not that selfish.

In God We Trust [1.7]

 * [at the prison]
 * Barry Zuckerkorn: Are all the guys in here... you know? [referencing gay inmates]
 * George Sr.: Oh, no, no. No, not all of them.
 * Barry Zuckerkorn: Yeah. It's never the ones you hope.
 * George Sr.: Hope?
 * Barry Zuckerkorn: Think.

 * Lucille: What'd she do, get you drunk?
 * Michael: No, we just, uh, well... we — we did drink a little bit. How'd you know that?
 * Lucille: Because that's what she said she'd do. I said you wouldn't give her the money, and she said, "He will if I get him drunk." Probably because she thinks you're a cheap bastard. Oh... her words.

 * Wayne Jarvis: I use one adjective to describe myself, what is it?
 * Michael: Professional.
 * [Jarvis shakes head and walks out]

 * Michael: Did I just wake you up? I didn’t even know you were home.
 * Lindsay: No, Michael, I don’t just sleep all day.
 * Narrator: Actually, Lindsay was so upset at Michael that she tried meditating to calm herself but ended up taking a two-hour angry nap.

 * Michael: I love Marta.
 * Lindsay: Mom's housekeeper?

 * Wayne Jarvis: I shall duck behind the couch.
 * Michael: What a pro.

 * Wayne Jarvis: I shall duck behind that little garbage can.
 * Michael: Guy's a pro.

 * Michael: [to Lucille] Oh, um... there's a big bowl of candy in my office. Why don't you go eat it?
 * Wayne Jarvis: Wayne Jarvis, attorney at law. I have a responsibility to tell you that there is no candy in this office.

 * Gob: [to Michael] Well, if it isn't the boy who lives under the stairs.

My Mother, The Car [1.8]

 * Michael: Hey, Mom. Remember we had that conversation about trying to cut back on things that aren't necessities?
 * Lucille: Like it was yesterday.
 * Michael: It was this morning.

 * Lucille: You're my third least favorite child.
 * Michael: I can live with that.

 * [Speaking of the surprise party for Lucille]
 * Maeby: We [George Michael and Maeby] don't have to go, do we?
 * Michael: This is a Bluth family celebration. It's no place for children.

 * Michael: I can't believe she got that driver's license renewed.
 * Gob: She didn't. I dummied her up a new one. Not my best work, though. She wanted to look 48. I nearly airbrushed her into oblivion. Ended up checking “albino” in the form.

 * Lindsay: It would just give Dad one more reason to think that I've got nothing to offer but my looks.
 * Gob: Yeah, I got some of that. Except he also didn't like my looks.

Storming the Castle [1.9]

 * Buster: And I'm going to continue dating, Mom.
 * Michael: It sounds a little bit like "dating Mom."
 * Buster: It's starting to feel a little like it.

 * Michael: Since when are you against leather?
 * Maeby: Yeah, you're not even a vegetarian.
 * Lindsay: Well, I'm not against the insides. I mean, people need meat to survive.
 * Michael: You are aware they don't remove it from the cow surgically, right?

 * Man at the store: May I help you?
 * Tobias: Oh, I hope so. Um, I'm looking for something that says, "Dad likes leather."
 * Man: Something that says, "leather daddy"?
 * Tobias: Oh, is there such a thing?

 * Michael: I'm a saint, you know. I'm a living saint, and I get absolutely nothing out of it.
 * Lindsay: Well, you get a false feeling of superiority
 * Michael: That is nice, but this time it's not enough.

 * Cab driver: Where to, mate?
 * Tobias: The Gothic Castle.
 * Cab driver: Gothic Asshole?
 * Tobias: That's what I said.

 * Rollo: If you care about your brother, you'll get in this car.
 * Michael: Which brother?
 * Rollo: Gob.
 * [Michael leaves]

 * Lucille: You're the only one who chose a spouse I liked and she had to die.
 * Michael: I know, that's rough for you.

Pier Pressure [1.10]

 * Lucille: [to Lindsay] I don't criticize you! And if you're worried about criticism, sometimes a diet is the best defense.

 * Maeby: [working with Lucille] This is so much fun. I can't believe my mom thought being here would be a punishment.
 * Lucille: Oh, she thinks I'm too critical. That's another fault of hers.

 * Maeby: [working with Lucille] Well, we can go get some ice cream, Gangee. That would be fun, right?
 * Lucille: I don’t think so. That chubby little wrist of yours is testing the tensile strength of this bracelet as it is.

 * George Sr.: What time is it? Oh, almost sundown. I have to prepare for the Sabbath.
 * Michael: It's Tuesday.
 * George Sr.: Shh...

 * Michael: You knew the whole time, didn't you?
 * George Michael: Well, sort of. One of the Hot Cops is my choir teacher.

 * Michael: Tell you what. I'm going to give you the cash, but in return, I get to ask you for a favor sometime.
 * Gob: My gut is telling me no. But my gut is also very hungry.

 * Gob: [about the Hot Cops] These guys are pros, Michael. They're gonna push the tension 'til the last possible moment before they strip.
 * Michael: They're not going to strip, are they?
 * Gob: I told them not to, but I can't promise that their instincts won't kick in.

Public Relations [1.11]

 * Jessie: We need to make Michael the new face of the Bluth company. He's the only likable one in the bunch. No offense.
 * Michael: None taken.

 * Jessie: There are very few intelligent, attractive and straight men in this town.
 * Tobias: Well, that certainly leaves me out. [Everyone looks at Tobias] You said "single," right? She said "single."

 * Buster: Uh, I'm unclear about what it is exactly you do.
 * Jessie: Excellent question. What a publicist does—
 * Buster: No, no, I was talking to George Michael. When did you get a job?
 * George Michael: I work at the banana stand.
 * Buster: Oh, duh. I thought you meant, like, a plumber or something, and I was like, when did that happen?

 * Jessie: Your father's religious now? We'll play that up. It's very sympathetic.
 * Lucille: Yeah. Who doesn't love the Jews?

 * George Sr.: [in prison] Gentlemen, we do not wave our genitals at one another to make a point!

 * Lucille: I'll have the Ike and Tina Tuna.
 * Waitress: Plate or platter?
 * Lucille: I don't understand the question, and I won't respond to it.

Marta Complex [1.12]

 * Gob: Oh, I see. She wants to talk to you. For some reason women feel safe around you. Maybe it's because you've only had sex four times.
 * Michael: Not four times, four women! And they talk to me because I talk to them!

 * Lucille 2: Buster, this is exactly why our relationship does not work.
 * Buster: Our relationship doesn't work?
 * Lucille 2: No, not as long as you keep getting me all mixed up with your mother.
 * Buster: It is exactly the opposite. I'm leaving my mother for you. You're replacing my mother.
 * Lucille 2: Well, that's healthy.

 * Lucille: [holding out a tissue] Blow.
 * Buster: No, Mother. I can blow myself.

Beef Consommé [1.13]

 * Barry Zuckerkorn: It would help if you would all show up looking like a loving, supportive family.
 * Lucille: For how long?
 * Barry Zuckerkorn: Ten minutes tops.
 * Lucille: See if you can get it down to five.

 * Gob: [to Michael] Tell you what. You may not be good with women, but you are great with other people's women. I'll give you that.

 * George Michael: Was Aunt Lindsay ever pregnant?
 * Gob: Oh yeah. Dozens of times.

Shock and Aww [1.14]

 * Lindsay: It's George Michael, he told me. I think he wants a mother.
 * Michael: Well that's ridiculous. He's got you, he's got our mother. You'd think that would turn him off to the entire concept.

 * Lucille: I don't have the milk of mother's kindness in me anymore.
 * Michael: Yeah. That udder's been dry for a while though, hasn't it?

Staff Infection [1.15]

 * Lindsay: Well, you and I have different management styles. I believe work should be fun, and you try to crush people's spirits. What's next, Michael? Are you going to make dancing illegal? Is this the tiny town from Footloose?

 * Buster: I’m a scholar. I enjoy scholarly pursuits.
 * Lucille: Suddenly, playing with yourself is a scholarly pursuit.

Missing Kitty [1.16]

 * George Sr.: What are you doing firing Kitty? You can't fire Kitty. First of all, you don't have hiring and firing power.
 * Michael: I do, and I had to — she's crazy.
 * George Sr.: Well, that's why you don't fire her. You don't fire crazy. You never fire crazy.

 * Lindsay: Where's Nana?
 * Lucille: I sent her on a wonderful cruise. You just missed a wonderful call from her. She just came back from a wonderful costume party that the captain threw. She gained ten pounds, there's so much food on that boat. She's up to 74. She tried pesto for the first time. Imagine that, 92 years old and she never tried pesto. It was wonderful. Just wonderful.
 * Narrator: In fact, Lucille's mother had been dead for six months.

Altar Egos (1) [1.17]

 * Michael: I'm not a one-night stand kinda guy, I don't like lying to women.
 * Gob: These are lawyers. That's Latin for liar.

 * Michael: Boy, the lengths you'll go to sleep with a woman.
 * Gob: Believe me, we didn't do any sleeping. I had sex last night.
 * Narrator: But he really didn't.
 * Gob: Yes, I did.

 * Gob: I just had a major night. With a major blonde. Who just majored in Marine Biology, if you know what I mean.
 * Michael: I don't know what you mean. I can't imagine what that means.

Justice is Blind (2) [1.18]

 * Gob: And now you love the Ten Commandments. And yet you're the one who so conveniently forgot "Thou shalt protect thy father and honor no one above him unless it be-ith me, thy sweet Lord."
 * Michael: I'm not sure that one made it down the mountain, Gob.

 * Lucille: Is this why you wanted to fight this thing? So you could run off with this great redwood of a whore?

Best Man for the GOB [1.19]

 * Gob: I've got the marriage and none of the good parts. It's like so far it's been all chain and no ball.

 * Tobias: As you may or may not know, Lindsay and I have hit a bit of a rough patch.
 * Michael: Really? When did that start?
 * Tobias: Well, I don't want to blame it all on 9/11, but it certainly didn't help.

 * George Senior: Gilligan has promised me that all this money will be safe in IRAs.
 * Ira Gilligan: It's Ira, sir.
 * George Senior: Oh, I'm sorry, Gilligan. Will be safe in Ira's.

 * Lucille: I’m going to Annyong’s soccer award ceremony and...
 * Annyong: Annyong. [everyone stares at him]
 * Lucille: ...and I don’t need the other soccer moms knowing how old my first batch of kids are.
 * Gob: Yeah, I think that they're going to know that Annyong's not your --
 * Annyong: Annyong.
 * Gob: Would somebody please tell this insufferable child... to... God!

 * Michael: Knock, knock! Where's the married bachelor?
 * George Sr: Michael, I thought you weren't coming. I thought he wasn't coming.
 * Michael: Well, I wasn't going to, but he’s my brother and I'm here to support him. Like all these, uh... hot men and Ira.
 * George Sr: You’re not going to stay? I mean, this isn't your kind of scene.
 * Michael: Dad, please, stay out of it, all right? I'm here for G.O.B. Now where are the strippers? You got a little back room going, huh? Huh?
 * [Gob tries to stop Michael]
 * Michael: No, hey, just relax! I'm as fun as anybody! I can handle a back room.
 * [Michael enters the back room, to the sight of an unconscious stripper and a knocked out Buster]
 * Michael: I'm calling the cops.

Whistler’s Mother [1.20]

 * George Sr.: Michael, this is my brother. Do you know what it's like to have a sibling who has no source of income except for you?
 * Michael: Just one? No, no idea. It sounds wonderful, though.

 * Wife of Gob: I'm in love with your brother-in-law.
 * Gob: You're in love with your own brother? The one in the army?
 * Wife of Gob: No, your sister's husband.
 * Gob: Michael? [angrily] Michael!
 * Wife of Gob: No, that's your sister's brother.
 * Gob: No, I'm my sister's brother. [happily] You're in love with me — me!
 * Wife of Gob: I'm in love with Tobias.
 * Gob: My brother-in-law?
 * Wife of Gob: I know it can never be, so I'm leaving. I'm enlisting in the army.
 * Gob: To be with your brother.
 * Wife of Gob: No!

 * Tobias: I'm afraid that this offer comes off the table at midnight.
 * Michael: That may be the worst bluff I've ever heard.
 * Narrator: Even the members of Gobias industries agreed on that one.

Not Without My Daughter [1.21]

 * Lindsay: Well, they expect a certain amount of theft, Michael. It's built into the price. If I didn't take it, then people would be overpaying for nothing.

 * Michael: Lindsay, new outfit?
 * Lindsay: This? No, I've had this for years. I think it's a hand-me-down from Mom.
 * Michael: You got a price tag. Right there.
 * Lindsay: Is there? I guess she wanted me to have something new. Sweet old thing.
 * Michael: Only two of those words describe Mom, so I know you're lying to me. And where did you get that outfit?
 * Lindsay: Old thing got it for me.

 * George: No, no, look, you were ... you were just a turd out there, you know? You couldn't kick, and you couldn't run, you know? You were just... a turd.

 * Michael: Not really. Kids love boundaries. I mean, look at these girls. (Talking about the "Girls with Low Self-Esteem" tape) Is this what you want?
 * Tobias: Oh, God, no.
 * Michael: This could be where your daughter is headed.
 * Tobias: Oh, no, no, I don't want this for Maeby either.

Let 'Em Eat Cake [1.22]

 * Gob: It's zero hour, Michael. It's the end of the line. I'm the firstborn. Sick of playing second fiddle. Always third in line for everything. Tired of finishing fourth. Being the fifth wheel. [thinks for a moment] There are six things I'm mad about, and I'm taking over.

 * Michael: I might not be the best witness either. I got a call from Kitty this morning.
 * Barry Zuckerkorn: Your secretary?
 * George Sr.: My secretary.
 * Michael: She says that she's got some evidence and she's threatening to bring down the company unless we meet her demands.
 * Gob: Oh, that is just great. Now I'm expected to climb back on top of Kitty and do my thing again. I mean, this family runs into problems and it's "Oh, let's have Gob [bleep] our way out of it."

 * Michael: Tell me the truth, okay? 'Cause there's been a lot of lying in this family.
 * Lucille: And a lot of love.
 * Michael: More lies.

The One Where Michael Leaves [2.1]

 * Tobias: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised... a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed but free to explore extramarital encounters.
 * Lindsay: Well, did it work for those people?
 * Tobias: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.

 * Dr. Fishman: Excuse me, Mrs Fünke.
 * Lucille: Oh, this guy again.
 * Michael: How is he, doctor?
 * Dr. Fishman: It looks like he's dead.
 * Lucille: Oh, my God!
 * Gob: Oh, little guy. The tears aren't comin'! The tears just aren't comin'!
 * Michael: Uh, just to be clear: looks like he's dead, or he is dead?
 * Dr. Fishman: It just looks like he's dead. He's got, like, blue paint on him or something.  But he's going to be fine.
 * Gob: What is wrong with you?
 * Maeby: This [bleep]ing doctor!
 * Dr. Fishman: I'll let you celebrate privately.

 * Narrator: Tobias went to a try-out for the Blue Man Group hoping to be seen.
 * [Tobias gets hit by a car]
 * Narrator: Unfortunately, it was dusk, and he couldn't be seen.

 * Lindsay: What did he say? Tell me the last thing he said.
 * Tobias: [in flashback] I'm afraid I just blue myself.
 * Michael: He said some wonderful things.

 * Michael: Well, I better get over there before he brings the whole company down.
 * Lindsay: It's only been three hours. How much damage could he really do?
 * Narrator: In three hours, Gob had done $45,000 in damage.

The One Where They Build A House [2.2]

 * Lucille: It's not fair to Buster. He's a nervous wreck right now. He's going into the Army, for God's sake.
 * Michael: You volunteered him.
 * Lucille: I knew you were going to throw that in my face.

 * Lucille: I want you out of the house.
 * Oscar: Oh, I want you everywhere.

 * Tom Jane: I just want my kids back.

 * Michael: [to Gob] Get rid of the Seaward.
 * Lucille: I'll leave when I'm good and ready.

Amigos [2.3]

 * Tobias:I know you're the big marriage expert. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot your wife is dead! [beat] I'm sorry, that was 100% inappropriate and I do apologize profusely. I'm, oh...

 * Michael: We have a private eye, huh?
 * Lucille: Oh, I hired him a hundred years ago to find out if your father was cheating on me. He never did find anything.
 * Michael: Well, he can’t be very good then.

 * Narrator: Buster was finding himself right at home.
 * Buster: Oh, my God! I used to have a shirt just like that.
 * Narrator: It was Buster’s old shirt. Lucille had given it to Lupe.
 * Buster: And the hand chair! I had one in my room! I wonder where that went.
 * Narrator: It went right there.
 * Buster: [touching his hand chair] I'd never thought I'd miss a hand so much.

 * Michael: Ann-Hog's coming? Well, load her up in the car.

Good Grief [2.4]

 * Maeby: Is there any way I can divorce them?
 * Barry: Oh, sure. It’s called emancipation. But you’ve got to prove that you’re living in an unstable environment.
 * Maeby: Both my parents are trying to have affairs. Of course, they haven’t succeeded yet.

 * Lucille: What are you doing home?
 * Buster: Army had half a day.

 * Michael: I think George Michael's hiding Ann in the attic.
 * Lindsay: From who? The Nazis?

 * Tobias: Here he comes. Here comes John Wayne. [imitating John Wayne] I'm not gonna cry about my Pa. I'm gonna build an airport. Put my name on it. [speaking normally] Why, Michael? So you can fly away from your feelings?

 * Narrator: As a child, Buster had a beloved parakeet. But after landing on his mother's housekeeper's head, it flew away. And into a transformer. When Buster found out, he destroyed the family's kitchen, believing this to be where Rosa lived.

 * Lindsay: [to Maeby] You know what? I'm going to throw on a skirt, take off my underwear, and make your Pop-pop proud!

 * George Michael: I have Pop-Pop in the attic.
 * Michael: What? The mere fact that you call making love "pop pop" tells me you're not ready.

Sad Sack [2.5]

 * Oscar: God willing, he’ll fail boot camp.
 * Michael: Well, why wouldn’t he? He already failed day camp.

 * Gob: I’m the pathetic one, Buster, not you. I totally freaked out in front of that prosecutor today. Like a little girl. In a little dress. Little saddle shoes. Little pigtails.
 * Buster: Wow, that does sound like a little girl.

Afternoon Delight [2.6]

 * Lindsay: No, you’re not going to that. You see, if I show up with you, it’ll just make me seem like I’m a mother.
 * Maeby: I’ve never thought of you that way.
 * Lindsay: That’s sweet.

 * Michael: My mom is very stressed out, and uh, she needs something that I can't give her, um... maybe a little afternoon delight?
 * Narrator: Oscar thought that Michael was referring to a particular brand of cannabis named Afternoon Delight, a strand famous for slowing behavior.
 * Oscar: Well, sure, the question is: Which way do I try to get it in her?
 * Michael: I don't need any details.
 * Oscar: Maybe I'll put it in her brownie.
 * Michael: Hey!

 * Gob: I did the right thing, Michael. If I don't fire them, how do I teach a lesson to the others?
 * Michael: There are no others. You fired everyone.

Switch Hitter [2.7]

 * Lucille: Get me a vodka rocks.
 * Michael: Mom, it’s breakfast.
 * Lucille: And a piece of toast.

 * Sitwell: The only thing I ask is, out of the 450 homes we build, one be given to a disadvantaged family from the inner city.
 * Gob: That's great. So the other 449 families live in fear? Is that what we're saying?

 * Michael: ...We lost our entire outfield, and a couple of court cases.
 * George Michael: You know who would be great—and not at all litigious—is Ann.

Queen For A Day [2.8]

 * Michael: [to Buster] Maybe it’s time you got out there and started meeting people. You know? Meeting women. Meeting women who didn't give birth to you.

 * Gob: So you take your mom to work every day? Bummer. Moms are such a pain in the ass, huh? It’s, like, die already!

Burning Love [2.9]

 * Lindsay: Oh, hi, Mom. I have the afternoon free.
 * Lucille: Really? Did "nothing" cancel?

 * Tobias: My wife is humiliated. This is my chance to right the small wrong that I did.
 * Michael: You shot her in the ass with about four ounces of horse tranquilizer.
 * Tobias: I haven’t been the perfect husband, yes; I admit that. But now is my chance to be a hero.

 * George Sr.: My back is in knots. I haven't had a massage since prison.
 * Michael: Hope that was forced.

Ready, Aim, Marry Me [2.10]

 * Lucille: She’d love to get at me any way she could. That’s why she’s been flirting with Gob. She’s trying to prove that she’s closer to my children than I am, but the joke’s on her, because she doesn’t know how little I care for Gob.
 * Michael: I think that makes the joke on Gob.

 * Michael: [looking at a gift basket] Didn't you get one of those, too? You bought Lindsay at the same auction.
 * Tobias: I'm afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run if you will, so I'm afraid I have something of a mess on my hands.
 * Michael: There's so many poorly chosen words in that sentence.

 * Tobias: Well, Michael, you really are quite the Cupid, aren’t you? I tell you, you can sink your arrow into my buttocks any time.
 * Michael: Okay, you know what you do? You buy yourself a tape recorder, you just record yourself for a whole day. I think you’re going to be surprised at some of your phrasing.
 * Tobias: {Holds up tube of edible butterscotch body cream} Butterscotch! Want a lick?

 * Tobias: [after Michael asks Tobias to buy a tape recorder to record himself speaking] You know, Michael, perhaps I should buy you that tape recorder. Do you have any idea how often you say the word "afraid"?
 * Michael: Well, I know I did in the jacuzzi.
 * Tobias: And I apologize for that. I thought it was a pool toy.

 * Narrator: On the next Arrested Development, Tobias listens to a day's worth of his own recordings to see what Michael was referring to.
 * Tobias: [on tape] Even if it means me taking a chubby, I will suck it up!
 * Tobias: Nothing wrong with that.
 * Tobias: [on tape] I've been in the film business for a while but I just cant seem to get one in the can.
 * Tobias: That's out of context...
 * Tobias: [on tape] I wouldn't mind kissing that man between the cheeks.
 * Narrator: And he realizes there is something distinct about the way he speaks.
 * Tobias: Tobias... you blowhard! [chuckles]

 * Buster: Hey, fake Uncle Jack.

 * Lindsay: Well Gob doesn't do anything for the family...
 * Gob: Hey... I'm [bleep]ing Lucille 2!
 * Lindsay: Oh! I could do something like that...

Out on a Limb [2.11]

 * Tobias: You know, mother Lucille, there's a psychological concept known as denial that I believe you're evincing. It's when a thought is so hateful that the mind literally rejects it.
 * Lucille: You are a worse psychiatrist than you are a son-in-law, and you will never get work as an actor because you have no talent.
 * Tobias: Well, if she's not going to say anything, I certainly can't help her.

 * Lindsay: That's the first time we were in the shower since our honeymoon.
 * Tobias: And this time, no tears!

Hand to God [2.12]

 * Dr. Fishman: Excuse me, are you the Bluths?
 * Lucille: Not Doctor Wordsmith. How's my son?
 * Dr. Fishman: He's going to be all right.
 * Oscar: Oh, thank God.
 * Lindsay: Finally, some good news from this guy.
 * George Michael: There's no other way to take that.
 * Dr. Fishman: That's a great attitude. I gotta tell you, if I was given this news, I don't know if I would take it this well.
 * Lucille: But... you said he was alright.
 * Dr. Fishman: Yes. He's lost his left hand, so he's going to be all right.
 * Lucille: You son of a bitch. I hate this doctor!

 * Michael: Mom, after all these years, God’s not going to take a call from you.

Motherboy XXX [2.13]

 * Gob: The cow is coming after me.
 * Michael: Your wife? She was super-thin.
 * Gob: She was? What about her cans? She have big cans?
 * Michael: You don't remember her at all, do you?
 * Gob: Hey, it was one night of wild passion!
 * Michael: And yet you didn't notice her body?
 * Gob: I like to look in the mirror.

 * Lindsay: Oh, God. Not that "I’m in love with my mother" dance thing. I’m so glad there wasn’t one of those for daddies and daughters.
 * Lucille: Of course they have father-daughter dances.
 * Lindsay: They do? He never took me?
 * Lucille: It was before we did your nose. Toodle-oo.

Immaculate Election [2.14]

 * Michael: So then, he’s more popular than George Michael?
 * Maeby: Well, that’s like comparing apples and some fruit nobody’s ever heard of.

 * Michael: You've got to be the laziest person in the world.
 * Lindsay: If you weren’t all the way on the other side of the room, I’d slap your face.

 * The Narrator: ...And Steve Holt finally tracks down his real father.
 * Steve Holt: I've been wondering my whole life who he is. A scientist, a doctor, a senator?
 * Agency worker: Well, we got some bad news. [Hands Steve a picture of Gob]
 * Steve Holt: Wow... Is that what's gonna happen to my hair?

The Sword of Destiny [2.15]

 * Buster: Hey! I'm finally being treated like a real person. Not some deformed...
 * Gob: Ah! Hook. I forgot about that there, Elephant Man. We'll have to find something to do so that people can look at you without wanting to kill themselves.

 * Lucille: My baby is sick, but Mother is here to nurse you.
 * Michael: Well, now I’m a little sicker.

 * Gob: Michael, I've been looking for you.
 * Michael: Looks like you're looking for dragons... In the future.

Meat the Veals [2.16]

 * George Michael: Ann just called. They had a pre-dawn mass. Then they were going to mass, so...
 * Michael: Ann’s got a great deal of mass.

 * Michael: Don't you think they're a bit too young [to get involved]?
 * Rev. Veal: Well, we got serious around his age.
 * Michael: [Glancing at the reverend's wife] Well-who can blame you? You gotta lock that down...

Spring Breakout [2.17]

 * Scandalmakers Narrator: When allegations surfaced that he’d illegally built homes in Iraq, George Bluth Sr., assisted by his secretary, Kitty, escaped the country...
 * Narrator: Due to poor acting, the burden of the story was placed on the narrator.
 * Scandalmakers Narrator: ...only to be found hiding under one of the homes that he himself built.
 * Narrator: He was actually found in a hole near the house, but this inattention to detail was typical of the laziness the show’s narrator was known for.
 * Tobias: [As George] I cannot survive under the house. Perhaps an attic shall I seek.
 * Narrator: Real shoddy narrating. Just pure crap.

 * Gob: Well, gee, I never thought the woman I'd be checking out at spring break would be Mom.
 * Buster: She's better looking than the whores you date.
 * Gob: Don't call my escorts "whores."
 * Buster: Mom's still got it!
 * Gob: I DON'T DATE WHORES!
 * Lindsay: Stop it, stop it. This objectification of women has to stop.
 * Michael: It’s just Mom and whores.

 * Lucille: Oh, please. I’ve been drinking since before you were born. So if alcohol’s the reason I’m here, I got news for you, bub. It’s the only reason you’re here, too.
 * Michael: Hey, look at that. You’re mean sober, too.

Righteous Brothers [2.18]

 * Gob: Why don’t you get Gob to do your dirty work for you? Shall I knock Dad out and chain him to a pipe somewhere, or should I risk another herpes outbreak with Kitty? Which is it this time, Michael?
 * Michael: Well, definitely neither of those two things.

 * Narrator: Gob had hidden his father under a house that had just collapsed.
 * Gob: [Seeing George Michael and Maeby] Children - you're small. Crawl under there.

The Cabin Show [3.1]

 * Gob: Pardon me if I don't burst into tears, Michael. At least he promised to take you. [bursts into tears] He just let me blindly enjoy my childhood! [sobbing] I didn't even know there was a cabin... he wasn't taking me to!
 * Michael: Mine's sadder.
 * Gob: I don't see you crying, robot!

 * Gob: Well, I will tell you this, Michael: I don’t have a son...
 * Narrator: He does.
 * Gob: ...But if I ever do, I'm either going to take him to the cabin in the woods, or I'm going to promise to take him and then not take him. But the one thing that I will never do is not tell him that I'm taking him to a cabin in the woods, and then not take him!
 * Narrator: Gob was growing up.
 * [Later, waiting for Michael to take him to the cabin]
 * Gob: There's only one sleeping bag, so we're going to have to double up. Pigs in a blanket!
 * Michael: Sorry, pal, something came up.
 * Gob: It is worse to know.
 * Narrator: Gob was getting life lessons all over the place.

 * Lindsay: We did it, Mikey! We're super-rich again. And I'm going to buy a car.  The Volvo. [hands Michael a piece of paper]
 * Michael: No, Lindsay, you're not going to start spending money. [looks at paper] And this is not a Vol-vo.
 * Lindsay: Oh, that's from sitting on the copier. Michael, I've got nothing.  My husband dumped me and ran off to Vegas with Kitty, that bleached-blonde whore.
 * Michael: He's definitely got a type.
 * Lindsay: I can't believe he left me. I mean, this? [points to her face] And these? [points to her breasts] And this? [holds up paper]
 * Michael: That's the car.
 * Lindsay: Oh. [holds up other paper] This?
 * Michael: Glad I didn't spring for color.

 * Oscar: I'm your uncle! I'm your dad's twin brother!  I'm Oscar!  He switched on me!  Noone believes me!
 * Narrator: Unfortunately for Oscar, "You got the wrong twin" was a very popular alibi.
 * (scene cuts to an example of other convicts being arrested)
 * Arrested man: You simply got the wrong twin!
 * Arrested twin 1: We're quadruplets! You got the wrong two!
 * Arrested twin 2: We're Larry and Dave!
 * Arrested twin 1: You want Curtis and Jack!
 * (scene cuts back to Michael and Oscar)
 * Oscar: I even started up a website: I'mOscar.com! (we see the I'mOscar.com main webpage) I'm innocent Michael!  I'm Oscar!  Dot Com!

For British Eyes Only [3.2]

 * Michael: We've got a picture of you with Saddam Hussein.
 * George, Sr.: I thought, I thought that was the guy who played the Soup Nazi. I told him how much I liked his work.

 * Michael: Great. I was wondering if you might be willing to go somewhere with me. I would pay you.
 * Rita: You’ll pay me?
 * Michael: Not... not for sex. You’re going to think that I’m Jack the Ripper, right? Didn’t he kill prostitutes or...?
 * Rita: I’m not a prostitute.
 * Michael: Then I shall let you live.

Forget-Me-Now [3.3]

 * Gob: Steve Holt's not my son.
 * George Michael: Steve Holt? The moron jock?
 * Gob: That's my son, you pothead!

 * Narrator: Michael did try again with Rita, but this time determined to keep no secrets.
 * Michael: I want to tell you everything if... if you're willing to listen.
 * Rita: I'm a very good listener.
 * Michael: Great. Start with the misdemeanors and then, we're gonna' push right on through to the lighter treasons. So, 1983...

Notapusy [3.4]

 * Gob: Hey, can you do me a favor? A young neighborhood tough by the name of Steve Holt will be dropping by, and...
 * Michael: Your son?
 * Gob: According to him.
 * Michael: And a DNA test.
 * Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

 * [During a work-out montage with Michael]
 * Steve Holt: Don't ask "can I?," ask "I can!"
 * Steve Holt: You can control your bladder when you're dead!
 * Steve Holt: No blood, no oil!
 * Steve Holt: There's no "I" in "win"!

Mr. F [3.5]

 * Michael: Besides, I already got George Michael the big present for his birthday...
 * George Michael: A suit! Dad, is it Jack Welch?
 * Michael: I want you to look under the pants.
 * George Michael: Quicken! Premiere! Dad, I hope you kept the receipt.
 * Michael: You want to return that?
 * George Michael: What? No, I want to deduct it.

 * Gob: Hey, maybe that's it. Maybe we should do to the Japanese what they do in their movies. Build a miniature city, put it outside the window, tell them it's far away. It'll look real if you squint. God knows they're squinters. [looks at Larry the surrogate] What do you think, Dad? A whole, tiny town.
 * George Sr./Larry: Another brilliant idea, Einstein.
 * Gob: Really? You'd like to build it with me?
 * George Sr./Larry: Larry really never knows how to sell the sarcasm. It's a stupid idea.

 * Bob Loblaw: If you take money from these people under false pretenses, you’ll be committing fraud. The government’s already watching your father pretty closely. They’re going through his mail. They want to put your father in prison for good.
 * George: Yeah, Bob’s right. We’ve got to start thinking practically. Life is not some cheesy Japanese movie where the hero pulls on a pair of jet pants and...
 * Larry: ...flies off the balcony like Astro Boy.
 * Narrator: And that’s when George Sr. did a Web search for the words “jet pants.”
 * George: Even better.

The Ocean Walker [3.6]

 * Michael: She's sweet. She's smart. She's beautiful. She's special.
 * Narrator: She was special.
 * [Flashback]
 * Rita: Are houses terribly hard to make?
 * Michael: Actually, the hardest part is finding the land.
 * Narrator: But she wasn't smart...
 * Rita: Instead of making houses, maybe you should make land.
 * Narrator: ...for Rita had only mentally progressed...
 * Rita: On the ocean.
 * Narrator: ...to the level of a first grader.
 * Rita: There's no land on the ocean.
 * Narrator: Michael might have noticed her disability if it had not been masked by her English accent.
 * Michael: [pause] You are brilliant.
 * Narrator: Yeah. She wasn't.

 * Rita: Rita corny, Michael.
 * Narrator: So Michael used a line that was just as corny.
 * Michael: You know, I think that we should wait until after we're married.

 * [Michael has just revealed that he knows Rita is mentally challenged]
 * Rita: You found out.
 * Michael: Took me long enough.
 * Rita: Maybe you're not smart, either! I didn't know until they told me.

Prison Break-In [3.7]

 * Michael: Can't a guy call his mother pretty without it seeming strange?
 * Buster: Amen. And how about that little piece of tail on her? Cute!
 * Michael: I've opened a door here that I regret.
 * Lucille: Oh, he's just talking about his stupid turtle.
 * Buster: She has a name, Mother, and it's Mother.

 * Lucille: I want to cry so bad, but I don't think I can spare the moisture.

Making a Stand [3.8]

 * Lucille: And that goes into storage, right? Not into your apartment.
 * Painter: Que?
 * Lucille: [to Michael] What's Spanish for "I know you speak English"?

 * Gob: I've got this Christian girlfriend now and she's trying to get me to be a better man and reconnect with my son and I'm trying to get her to renounce God and [bleep] me and I just want to prove to her that I'm worth it.

S.O.B.s [3.9]

 * Michael: That’s the point, Dad. Mr. Loblaw no longer works for us because someone wanted a boyfriend.
 * Tobias: Well, don’t blame me!
 * Michael: I was talking to Lindsay, actually, but he was clearly turned off to the both of you.

 * Lindsay: You know, Mom, I think the only time you cooked for us was the morning Rosa's mom died.
 * Buster: You gave us cereal in an ashtray.

Fakin' It [3.10]

 * Lucille: I just pray it's one of those things where he's unconscious through the whole trial and when he wakes up he gets BIG toy!
 * Michael: Did you do this, Mom? Did you put one of your own sons in a coma so he wouldn't testify?
 * Lucille: Michael, how dare you! Although the thought did cross my mind.

 * [Gob is using a "My name is Judge" magazine insert inside his ventriloquist dummy]
 * Gob: They'll call me up on the stand, say something like "who is this little friend?", and he'll say...
 * Franklin/Judge: My name is Judge.
 * Gob: Whose name is Judge?
 * Franklin/Judge: My name is...
 * Gob: That's a silly name!
 * Michael: That's enough!
 * Franklin/Judge: ...Judge. My name...
 * Gob: Yes, I am judging your name. It am silly!
 * Franklin/Judge: ...Is...
 * Gob: Oh, now you're correcting my grammar?
 * Michael: Gob, not going to put Franklin on the stand. And your lips are moving just a little bit.
 * Franklin/Judge: ...Judge.
 * Gob: He's right, his name is Judge now.

Family Ties [3.11]

 * George, Sr.: I just want my brother to envy my money, but he’s got that hair. Why can’t I have hair and money and him nothing?

 * Gob: The real problem is that she keeps saying that God is going to show me a sign. The... something of my ways. Wisdom?
 * Michael: It's probably wisdom.

 * Michael: I can't stand to hear one more lie out of this family.
 * Tobias: [entering, to Lindsay] There's the woman I'm sexually attracted to.
 * Michael Okay, but that's the last one.

Exit Strategy [3.12]

 * Richard Shaw: I’m sorry it took so long, but the Cheney Expressway was backed up all the way to Halliburton Road.

 * Buster: Let me go with you. I was trained by Army. I speak the language.
 * Michael: You speak Arabic?
 * Buster: La-ach-ha-tem.
 * Michael: What’s that mean?
 * Buster: No, I was just clearing my throat... but I think it actually does mean "laundry," but like a child’s laundry. We don’t really have a word for it.

Development Arrested [3.13]

 * Tobias: I should call the Hot Cops and tell them to dress up as something more nautically themed. Hot sailors, maybe. Or better yet, hot seam—
 * Michael: I like hot sailors.
 * Tobias: Mmmm. Me too.

 * Narrator: Although George Michael had only got to second base, he’d gone in head first, like Pete Rose.

 * Narrator: It was Arrested Development.

Flight of the Phoenix [4.1]

 * Michael: I was mistakenly voted out of a four-person housing situation in a "pack first, no talking after" scenario.

A New Start [4.5]

 * Man: They're the ambiguously gay duo.
 * Tobias: I assure you there's nothing ambiguous about me. I'm Johnny Storm, the human flamer.

 * Tobias: Is there a little girl here all by herself?
 * Narrator: And perhaps it was this that would finally get him to admit that he sometimes did speak in a misleading way.
 * Tobias: Daddy needs to get his rocks off!

Double Crossers [4.6]

 * George Sr.: I have changed, Michael! I cry at the drop of a hat and I hate the way I look. I actually had one cute hat, and it... [starts sobbing] blew off at this CVS parking lot... and this whole car full of black kids ran over it—for no reason! And they saw it! THEY SAW IT!

 * George Sr.: "I'm so sorry, I thought you were a successful Republican strategist."
 * Waiter: "Why, because I'm black?"

Colony Collapse [4.7]

 * Gob: [Upon getting shocked seeing a picture of Jesus] For a second, I thought that was a real guy.

 * Gob: What... what... is it? I... [laughs] You... It's the-the-the-the... the-the questions... you ask so many, of these, of these, of these, these-these questions, that-that-that-that you keep asking f-for me... for-for-for-f-for, sh-should-should-should, should I, should I, should I? Sh-should-should the, should the, should the, should-should the guy, should the guy... [voice breaks] should the guy... Sh-should the guy in the the $32... In the $32, pink-p-p ba-bath-bath-bath... Sh-should-should-should... should the girl in the $6,000 tuxedo, should the guy, should the guy, in the $32... in the $3,400... should the guy, come on! Come on! [sobbing] Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on!
 * Narrator: Gob was uncomfortable with the question.

A New Attitude [4.11]

 * Gob: [to a group of migrant workers] Who wants to help me build a wall... [Workers show interest] ...to keep Mexicans out of America? [Workers throw garbage at him] Alright, alright... Who wants to help me build a wall for no reason? It's a different wall!

 * Tony Wonder: I'm here, I'm queer... And now I'm in a chair!

Off the Hook [4.14]

 * Asian bully: This table is for National Honor Society members only.

 * Lucille 2: Buster, you look different.
 * Buster: Yes, I've been with a black woman.

 * Buster: I am no longer a Mother-boy, I am a Mother-man!

Blockheads [4.15]

 * Gob: It's really just the age we live in, isn't it? Take a pill and forget your problems.  Take a pill to go to sleep.  Take a pill to forget your problems.  Need an erection?  Take a pill.  Need to forget your problems?  Take a pill!  Take a pill and your problems are forgotten!  Take a pill... What an age we live in!  It's great!

Cast

 * Jason Bateman - Michael Bluth
 * Portia de Rossi - Lindsay Fünke
 * Will Arnett - George Oscar "Gob" Bluth II
 * Michael Cera - George Michael Bluth
 * Alia Shawkat - Mae "Maeby" Fünke
 * Tony Hale - Byron "Buster" Bluth
 * David Cross - Tobias Fünke
 * Jessica Walter - Lucille Bluth
 * Jeffrey Tambor - George Bluth Sr. / Oscar Bluth
 * Ron Howard - Narrator
 * Henry Winkler - Barry Zuckerkorn
 * Liza Minnelli - Lucille Austero (Lucille 2)
 * Judy Greer - Kitty Sanchez
 * Patricia Velasquez - Marta
 * Justin Lee - Annyong Bluth

title: Arrested Development


text: Template:Npov

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Template:Npov


text: Category:NPOV disputes

title: Category:NPOV disputes


text: User talk:68.201.199.56

title: User talk:68.201.199.56


text:
Wikiquote talk:Votes for deletion archive

Restructuring
There is a proposal for restructuring this archive to group into kept, deleted, and to-be-deleted sections, with articles being listed in each in alphabetical order. As it already has the support so far of three of the four sysops who can be expected to maintain it (with no current dissents), I plan to implement this new structure, unless there are objections, sometime after 0:00 17 April 2005 (UTC). — Jeff Q (talk) 20:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've completed the restructuring, but two other issues have come up as a result. I'll bring them up in subsections for easier commentary. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Transwikied articles
I put the articles that have been moved using the Transwiki process into the Kept articles section, even though the material itself is no longer on Wikiquote. This seemed to me to be in keeping with the idea that an article with this title is still here, even though it only directs the reader to another location (e.g., Wikisource). It might be desirable to put these under a separate section or a subsection of Kept (e.g., Transwikied articles). This will also be affected by the outcome of the Tryst With Destiny VfD, which asks whether we should keep such links. I recommend holding off on a change here until that VfD is settled. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pending deletion
The Pending deletion section was envisioned to collect all the VfD articles whose deletion was prevented by a block-compression error (BCE), a known bug in the current software which is expected to be fixed down the road. Such articles will be deleted at that time, and are meanwhile protected from edits.

However, there are other circumstances in which articles may literally be "pending deletion" but are not expected to have that deletion completed for a while. Favorites is an excellent example. There was a consensus to move material out of this article before deleting it, and this process was expected to take a while to do. It has been voted for deletion, but is not technically a Deleted article, so putting it in that section would be confusing. I have therefore placed it in Pending deletion.

This may be confusing to the sysops, as we had expected this to be a list of BCE articles. I would suggest, though, that there is no real confusion. The definitive list of BCE articles (both VfD'd and speedy-deleted) is now in Category:Pending deletions, so sysops should use that when it comes time to delete these problem articles. I suggest that, for now, we consider the Pending deletion section here to be nothing more than a list of articles that we haven't gotten around to deleting yet, for whatever reason.

We might later adopt a deletion process, similiar to Wikipedia's but much less complicated, that would regularly move completed VfD entries into such a waiting-for-deletion section, then allow other sysops (or the same one, later) to execute the deletion. I'm not ready to propose this because (A) we're just about to make the immediate-archive-and-delete change, and I don't want to get caught up in too many process changes at once; and (B) if we add another section, we'll have to argue about how to differentiate between normal articles "pending deletion" and BCE'd articles that are using the   tag that explicitly says there is a software problem preventing deletion. Others may feel differently. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * As I moved the "pending deletion" list from the main VfD page to this archive, I belatedly realized that it would be easy to leave the list as a subsection of "Pending deletions" here. Since that was not part of our earlier discussions about the restructuring, my action may have been a bit too bold. I ask everyone to examine this new change and discuss whether we should keep it, mix the BCE problems in with the non-BCE problems (as I proposed only minutes ago above!), or keep this "pending deletion" section purely for the BCE problems and come up with a different place for Favorites and other not-yet-deleted articles like it. Sorry about the confusion. — Jeff Q (talk) 08:26, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Archiving revotes
With the recent completion of a vote on Adam Margolin, the new system had a bit of a snag. It was voted to keep in 2004, then voted to delete in 2005. When I archived the latter, I moved the 2004 vote into a subsection under the new vote's archive entry so that both votes were preserved, but the ultimate fate was clear. If the new vote had been to keep again, I could have done the same thing in the Kept section, moving the former vote under the new one to emphasize the latest vote while preserving the old one. (If there were several old votes, I'd have put them in reverse-chronological order, since the older the VfD nominations are, the less relevant they should be. This shouldn't get confused with the standard chronological order of the actual discussions, because each vote has its own section, and I've included the closure date in the subsection header.)

Since we have no policy on this, I ask everyone to consider what I've done, how it might be done differently, and discuss it here so we can add some notes to the eventual Deletion process. Thank you. — Jeff Q (talk) 05:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A minor oddity
Why the link to article in section heading has been removed for deleted articles when the vote gets moved to archive? Now it is tedious, especially for non-admins, to figure out for example when they navigate to Oliver Putzier (which may or may not have been re-created) that where the VfD discussion, if any, is stored. Normally one uses Special:Whatlinkshere to check the existence of old VfD discussion, but without the link one has to navigate to this page and do an eye-ball search instead. jni 07:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Unlike Wikipedia, we don't have individual pages for each VfD. The VfD discussions, in their entirety, are listed in the archive under each article's heading. Furthermore, I don't know that we've ever had a case yet of an article being recreated after it was VfD'd. (I'm sure that won't last.) Because of this, we don't seem to expect there to be a page to have a link to the VfD discussion. (I just last week ran through the exercise of adding two years of VfD archive links to VfD'd articles that were kept. Perhaps that gives you an idea of how informal we've been. ☺) Also, on Wikiquote, you can't type a non-existent article title in Search and bring up an edit window in order to get the Whatlinkshere link. Therefore, AFAIK, the easiest way to find out if an article has ever been VfD'd on Wikiquote is to go to WQ:VFDA and look at the table of contents. That may not be the best way, and it probably will have to be changed down the road, but that appears to be where we're at for now. — Jeff Q (talk) 08:11, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, we use subpages now at least on the archiving side, so it is possible to navigate from Grant Dowell to Votes for deletion archive/Grant Dowell by writing the prefix "Wikiquote:Vote for deletion archive/" at the browser location bar. That is clearly an improvement, but still it would be easier just to click "What links here" and follow the link from there to archive page. When you don't know whether we have a page or not, the first obvious thing you do is to type in the title to your browser, no? At least I don't use search for that purpose unless I can't remember the exact title. Furthermore, VFDA could have been vandalized so if you are scanning from the TOC, you first need to check that the page itself is in consistent state. jni 07:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Order of images and other namespaces
This archive is in alphabetical order, but we hadn't really specified what form of alpha order we're using. I was going strictly by article name, without considering surnames in people article titles, because it's easier to sort something in a list that's strictly alphabetical by title text, and it's not usually harder to find articles that way. But we've been sorting images based on their subject name, which breaks the ease of sorting.

I suggest we follow strict alpha ordering, which would put any articles with namespace-like prefixes (i.e., Image:, Transwiki:, etc.) in the same general area. In addition to making sorting easier, it might actually be better for searching than the current mixed-in practice, as someone looking for an image would know to look in only a small section of the longer list, and all the soon-to-be-added transwiki articles would also be in a logical group. (I'm not suggesting that we create separate heading for these, but just place them in the normal order they would be in in the current Kept, Deleted, or Pending deletion sections.)

If no one objects in the next week, I plan to implement this strict alpha order. — Jeff Q (talk) 06:05, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Since Aphaia went ahead and added Deleted pages (for non-article pages) and Deleted images sections to the archive, I took her cue and resorted the list to follow this new system. I'm not sure this is the best way (I can see both good and bad coming from it), but it solves the problem I raised above. — Jeff Q (talk) 12:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Using subpages for archive
Whoa, folks! In starting the use of subpages as VfD archives, a major policy change has been enacted after only two people exchanged three messages over a four-day period of time on the Village Pump! (jni commented positively only after the fact.) This is extremely bad form. If you can't even get most of the sysops to respond to a proposal, you should not assume agreement. I, for one, had cut back my activity for a couple of weeks, and had not expected that people would assume my silence to be consent. In my mind, lack of participation in a discussion (other than the clearly defined conditions of VfD votes) is an implicit statement that consensus has not been achieved. That's why, when I hear nothing from other affected people on a matter of concern to me, I either post notices to their User pages or announce that I will take unilateral action unless someone responds. That's a much clearer and more reasonable way to encourage participation in a forum where only a tiny fraction of the community is active.

Not only was this change done abruptly, but it's being done ad-hoc, without any changes to Deletion policy. We now have the following confusing state of deletions: I am also concerned that there may be (or may soon be) subpaged VFDAs, but no way to find them other than through careful examination of the VFD and VFDA page histories and/or guessing the correct article title and prefixing it with "Votes for deletion archives/". Since there is no policy, there is nothing but our own vigilance and caution to prevent mistakes from happening. Our vigilance is reflected (poorly) in how timely we are in closing votes and moving them to VFD (which has been often left to me — the inexperienced guy — even when the system was easier), and our (lack of) caution is demonstrated in how swiftly we moved to complicate the process without a true consensus and without documenting it.
 * Most archived VfDs still exist solely as entries on WQ:VFDA.
 * Some are both VFDA entries and have subpages (e.g., Gary Wilmott), but no links between the VFDA entry and the subpage.
 * There is no indication of which deleted articles are in what state.

Aphaia, MosheZadka, and jni consider this to be an improvement, but I disagree in the strongest terms. I do think we're heading toward subpages, but it's insane to start this practice so irregularly and without documentation for either the people who have to execute it or the community which must be able to understand it. The latter cannot be assumed to be as technically savvy as the Wikipedia audience, as jni seems to be assuming. (Heck, half his discussion of the technical aspects of the WP system are currently over my head, and I'm a sysop.)

We must accept the fact that Wikiquote is not Wikipedia — not by a long shot. Administrative changes must come slowly, must be geared toward the low maintenance participation of the WQ community, and must be doable by a tiny staff of sysops.

I'm willing to take up this issue immediately, but to do it, I'll have to further put off fixing the many broken links in our basic policy, an issue to which virtually no one has risen. We have yet to here from Kalki or Rmhermen, let alone a single non-sysop in the community besides MosheZadka. Unless Aphaia and jni plan to take over all VfD maintenance, I strongly suggest we spend more time considering the impact of this major change. — Jeff Q (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I didn't think we even had a proposal yet, much less a decision. – is not a good way to do it because of server load problems. If it is necessary and I am not sure that it is yet, why don't we do it with just normal brackets? Rmhermen 16:58, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm personally not opposed to any of the suggestions, either one can be fine, i.e. I don't consider it a big deal either way. It seems to me that using subpages is somewhat cumbersome, and I don't see a reason to add this complexity (neither now nor in the future), but if that's what the rest of you prefer, then fine, no big deal. If I had to choose the best solution, I'd have probably opted for the simple method in which when the VFDA page gets to 100KB or x-KB for some x, then we just archive it as VFD_old_archive1, and the next time it does, to VFD_old_archive2, or something like that, so that we would have 100KB archive subpages, instead of a single subpage for each deletion, but again, if you prefer something else, then it's cool. Also, as I mentioned in VP, imho we should use speedy deletions more often, some of the VFD votes right now could have been speedy deleted. But I did notice in RC that admins deleted some new pages that contained obscenity, so that's cool. Sams 09:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for all your comments, but it was more preferable if you could have given comment much earlier. I don't object to discuss more closely, because it is a major change and better to be more considered.
 * After some experimental creations of subpages, I found using subpages are very helpful to create an archive and reduce burdens of editors in procedures of archive creation. It is very annoying both to edit a huge volumned section of VfD and VFDA (you can easily lose yourself on source) and to edit VfD and VFDA by section (when a page have more revisions, its display becomes more stressed). For me the current archive is cumbersome and annoying to maintain.
 * But there is still some points we need to argue, for example like Rmhermen said, if we prefer a normal link to . Or which page is the best parent - VfD or VfDA. If it is inevitable for us to shift to VfD with subpages in the future, we are better to create subpages under VfD, not VfDA. Or not. Any comments will be appreciated. --Aphaia 07:04, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Two proposal on WQ:VFDA
from WQ:VP

Hi, I found our VFD archive has grown up too large. "Deleted articles" section is almost 60KB. And too big page is annoying.

I propose an improvement for the archive. I have two ideas and an not sure which you prefer.

To make clear, I don't want to introduce subpages into VfD directly. Currently VfD isn't so huge and feasiable. subpage needs a technique and make difficult to list a new candidate. That is not what I want. I think our VfD itself doesn't need subpages currently. And hope such a day will come as late as possible. Less deletions, much happier. --Aphaia 18:45, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Division of pages by result a/o alphabetical order
 * "Deleted articles" section should be divided into smaller parts. Other results are not need to divide now.
 * 1) "Introduction of subpages": When we archive already processed vote, we make a subpage and copy the discussion into it. And the archive becomes like a Wikipedia VfD, that is, there we will write factly

 * Yes, subpages in WQ:VFDA sounds like a good idea. I agree with your reasoning re: not wanting subpages for WQ:VFD. However, to make this work we should probably be more diligent about moving stuff to archival. I think a week after a vote closes, it can be safely moved. MosheZadka 12:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Since no one dissent and MosheZadka clearly supports this idea, I put a newly deleted entries into the archive as into subpages. Also I turned other two entries on WQ:VFDA into subpages. I think we can change the current archive style gradually. --Aphaia 06:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I also support the subpages, and woudn't mind using subpages in VfD also. We might need to go to that direction in future as Wikiquote grows. But, why do you propose to use the instantiation syntax instead of having a plain list of links in the archive page? This does not decrease loading time of the archive page, on the contrary might delay it since servers now has to fetch few hundred subpages from its cache per each page load. I urge us to switch to use just normal   links. jni 06:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Whoa, folks! You've started a major change in the deletion process after only 3 messages between 2 people in 4 days! The subpage goal may ultimately be desirable, but the new practice is adding more of a burden, is not documented, and has no consensus even among the sysops, let alone the community. I discuss my objections to this rush to change at WQ:Votes for deletion archive. I ask that we continue this matter over there, and that anyone in the community interested in this topic join us there. — Jeff Q (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for my hasteness, but after some experiments I found subpages were helpful to maintain archives. We need to think what way is the best (which page's subpage, if they are archived, is there any necessary and additional information when we archive it, etc.) but I support strongly we turn our archive into the way using subpage. Copying & pasting the whole VfD entries is a bit annoying task and sometimes confusable. With help of subpages it becomes much easier. I promise I won't make further supage archive as is without concensus, but I think it is the best way at this time except some details need to improve. --Aphaia 06:50, 30 May 2005 (UTC) )

Need to restructure VFDA again

 * moved here from Village pump

Now WQ:VFDA is close to 400 KB and it is hard to display it instantly. It takes me a half minute to get the page. I suppose we come to the time to restructure it again.

Here are my random thoughts:
 * Separate kept pages and other deleted materials.
 * Divide deleted articles into some pages (perhaps 26 or more or less).
 * Separate delete articles and other namespace pages.
 * Pending deletions would have their own pages.

--Aphaia 20:58, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree something should be done. Worse than loading it, editing it is painfully slow, and is one of the more unpleasant things about the current VfD closure procedure. I am unsure what is the best way, though, and would like to contemplate it more. Thanks ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 18:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd like to consider a practice that Aphaia and MosheZadka wanted to implement a few months ago: subpages for each VFD archive entry. At the time, I vehemently objected because it was implemented with very little discussion in a very short time and no real consensus. Even though I agreed that we probably had to use subpages at some point, my greatest concern was the complexity of creating them for use in VFD during the votes, like Wikipedia does. (Their process is so complicated that they are currently discussing simplification alternatives.) HOWEVER, I hadn't thought through the fact that Aphaia & MZ were only proposing to use subpages for archiving, not for voting itself, which moves the burden completely to sysops, who can be expected to be more wiki-savvy and would probably prefer this system. Since we seem to be handling WQ:VFD fairly well now, keeping its size reasonable, we can consider reorganizing the archive without forcing WP's complex VFD-subpage system on VFD nominators and voters.

 * I suggest we move the archived entries to subpages, as Aphaia had been doing, and provide some kind of link to them on the main VFDA page. Even if we agree on this, there remain at least two issues:
 * Whether we should use templates or simple links on the main page.
 * How the links/templates should be organized.

 * If the community has no objections, I suggest we move this discussion to Wikiquote talk:Votes for deletion archive and discuss it for at least two weeks. Meanwhile, I offer apologies to my two conscientious colleagues for biting their heads off earlier about this clever idea. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Seconded ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 18:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Thirded. And thank you for your offer to substantial transition plan, Jeff. --Aphaia 12:29, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Based on the general agreement from the Village pump dialog transferred above, I've started an experimental page at User:Jeffq/Experiments/VfD archive list that includes links for all the current VFDA entries (as of around 23:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)). (I was going to put it in a more official namespace, but I wanted to see if I could quickly build a complete and useful page and entries. However, the WQ server is so slow at the moment, I figured I'd better not delay and give everyone a chance to look it over before I commit too much work to it.) Several of the VFDA entries already have pages (4 from Aphaia's early work, and a few new ones I've just done). All of the existing subpages now have   tags which also include them in Category:VfD archive entries. It's a bit ragged right now, but take a look and see some of the ideas, implications, and problems we'll run into using this system. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:02, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Nice archive! I love it. Easy to browse and well prepared to future expansion. On the other side, I prefer one of our current archive system, sorting by results (kept or deleted). How about using another template for kept articles/pages - I fear we have no means to sort distinguish kept articles from deleted ones. On other points, I am fully satisfied with Jeff's proposed new archive. --Aphaia 23:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I had created the following TOC for the current VFDA, but didn't implement it because it would have introduced some complications into the archive process:

 * Perhaps this might provide a better organization for a link-only VFDA as well, splitting the list into kept and deleted articles. I like Aphaia's vfd-archive-kept template to provide an indication for the vote entry pages themselves. (I'd want to change the vfd-archive template to vfd-archive-deleted, so we have both statuses clearly stated.) There are some other practical issues remaining, like how to handle revotes. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Imminent move of VFDA entries to subpages
I am proposing an imminent, significant change in the deletion close process — changing all the entries in the current Votes for deletion archive into transclusion links — so please review the discussion here and comment as soon as possible.

As soon as I finish copying all of the existing VFD archive entries into subpages (hopefully within the week), I would like to change the process so that, instead of moving the closed entry into VFDA, we transfer that entry into a VFDA subpage with the name:
 * Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive/ENTRYNAME

and add a transclusion link:

where we would normally place the entry itself. This has already been done for a handful of entries, so we know it works. The following things will happen: There are many questions yet unanswered about this approach (e.g., will it speed up or slow down non-edit access to the VFDA page?), but I think we're in an emergency state with the current 1/4-MB page, so we need to try some fixes quickly. (Plan B is to convert the transclusions to ordinary links to the subpages, turning VFDA into an index like my experimental VFDA index, but we need not worry about that unless the transclusion scheme doesn't solve the display-speed problem.) I will commit to updating Deletion policy simultaneously with this change, and for any subsequent quick changes that we need to do to get display and editing performance significantly improved. I invite comments and questions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Archiving an entry will be a 3-step process instead of a 2-step process:
 * Create the subpage.
 * Edit VFDA and add the transclusion link.
 * Remove the entry from VFD.
 * The VFDA will look exactly the same to readers.
 * Editing a single VFDA entry (which is extremely rare once archived) will correctly take you to an edit window for the subpage.
 * Editing the whole page or a section of the page (for archiving a new entry, sorting, or restructuring) will be faster and easier, especially once the remaining existing entries are converted to transclusion links.

 * I support this move. When we do it, someone should (me, if nobody else wants to) add the clear instructions above (including the Inputbox stuff) to the VfD page, so closing admins will be able to know what to do (in general, historically WQ has had waaaay too much oral traditions, and we should avoid adding more). Thanks for all your work ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 09:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, we definitely need to include accurate instructions. Right now, we have them in "WQ:Deletion policy", but Wikipedia has a separate "Deletion process" page for such stuff. I'm not inclined to create another page, but will support splitting it this way if others want it. Otherwise, we can just update WQ:DP and maybe tweak WQ:VFD. I don't want to put too much into WQ:VFD, because its intro is not meant to be a manual for sysops, but rather a quick reference for regular editors. However, it's a logical place for the "Create a VFD archive entry" inputbox. (Now that I think about it, technically anyone can archive a VFD entry; only vote closure is restricted to sysops.) By the way, I finished the VFDA subpage creation ahead of schedule. We can implement the switchover at any time now. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Interesting statistics
For the statistic-obsessed, I though I'd mention that, after re-synchronizing my reformatted index against all the VFDA entries as of 0:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC), I found that we've had exactly 323 deletion votes since we started tracking them via WQ:VFD. 320 of these were unique votes, with 3 articles voted on twice over time. I can't say how many pages we voted on, because we often include multiple pages in an single VFD entry. Just FYI. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Subpage tranclusion BAD; links good
I just created an experimental version of the current WQ:VFDA at User:Jeffq/Experiments/VfD archive list (transclusions), using transclusions (e.g.,  ) for every single archived entry (340 at present). Click on the link, and you'll see how INCREDIBLY SLOW it is! There are other problems with transclusions, but this one problem pretty much kills the whole idea. If we move to subpages, we're going to need to use regular links (e.g.,  /Favorites ). I have 3 different experimental versions of the current VFDA using links at archive list, archive list (kept/deleted), and archive list (kept/deleted) 2. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Ummm....I'm sorry....I did not feel it was "incredibly slow". Might it be the case that it is "incredibly slow" the first time after it is updated, and afterwards it's cached? If that is the case, I feel we should not count out transclusion just yet: there are advantages to transclusions, and if it comes to waiting for a bit when it is first rendered, it's worth thinking about it. Thanks ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 11:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I opened the transclusion version several times while working on it and related pages, and each time it took 15-20 seconds. If that's cached, I'd hate to see it uncached! Just now, using a 750MHz Win2k machine, Firefox 1.0.7, and a 500KB+ broadband connection, I got the following response times:
 * WQ:VFDA: 20 seconds
 * All transclusion version: 15 seconds
 * Fanciest link version: 2 seconds
 * I've seen no response using all transclusions that is significantly better than the current VFDA. I thought this was the one of the two main reasons we had to fix the system. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:00, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah it seems worse now. *shrug* Well, then link system it is. :) ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 22:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I didn't feel either "incredibly slow" but admit the transclusion version is much slower than the link version. But I find two preferable points on the transclusion version.
 * If we remember the discussion itself but forget its proper name, the transclusion version is more helpful to find the discussion in question due to its content-oriented feature.
 * It is dated - and we can easily find it. On the other hand, the link version lacks such details.
 * The first point seems to be hardly compensated. On the other hand, the second one could be with a date addition, for example, vote closing date. Wikinewsies use a template for external link, which has two paramaters: article name and its date. We can borrow it to our deletion archive and in my opinion it would help us to track our past discussions. --Aphaia 05:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd like to make a few more comments on transclusions vs. links, based on my recent archiving of a mass of old entries:
 * Editing a WQ:VFDA filled with transclusions generates a list of templates after the Preview/Save buttons that is as long as the number of transclusions. This means that if we convert to all-transclusion, the buttons won't be at the bottom, but in the middle of the page, which is extremely unintuitive and annoying. Result: Links better than transclusions.
 * Aphaia has a point about remembering discussion vs. titles, but I would point out that if we're looking for a discussion and can't recall the title, we either have to read several hundred screens of text or do a browser Find for what we remember. If the latter, we can almost as easily do a wiki Search for the text in the Wikiquote: namespace. Result: Transclusions somewhat better than links.
 * Using links would require modifying the   template to point to the subpage instead of the section of the VFDA page (trivial), and would also require a one-time chamge of any manual or subst-created kept messages that currently point to VFDA. Result: Transclusions better than links, but only before a transition to links; the ongoing state confers no advantage to either.
 * Despite the disadvantages of links, the major transclusion-induced delays during each VFDA edit, preview, and save (which will only get much worse once we convert all entries to transclusions) still make me lean toward links. In any case, I'd like to reinvigorate this debate because this last round of archiving, plus the massive backlog no doubt created by our dread of using the new (and as yet undocumented) process, convinces me that things are growing worse while we delay. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Converting VFDA to some kind of list
Given that VFDA has reached nearly 500KB, I have started the process of converting the page into a list of entry links. Even though performance concerns favor using straight links (e.g., /Amber ) over transclusions (e.g., ), there remain unresolved complications in using ordinary links. Therefore, I have started the process of replacing each VFDA entry to a transclusion of its subpage. Although I expect this not to help performance-wise (it is likely to make it worse in the short term), it will significantly reduce the problem of adding an entry to this page by converting a huge mass of semi-structured text into a simple list of identically formatted single lines. All we need concern ourselves with will be ensuring proper alphanumeric order within the proper headings. I fully expect to have to convert the transclusions to ordinary links in the foreseeable future, but that will be a simple 60-second global text replace (followed by half an hour of link verification!). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your enourmous work, Jeffq. As for me, I concur with link-orienged archive much than before. But I'm not displeased with transclusion version, of course.  --Aphaia 11:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the feedback. Oddly enough, I've noticed the page speeding up even with the transclusion links. It's possible that the reduction of page length is improving retrieval faster than the transclusion is hurting it. I should be done transcluding shortly, so I can do a more formal test then. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just completed the conversion of VFDA into a list of transclusions (templated links to subpages). There are at least four issues left to resolve: I'm not going to work on any of these issues just now; I need a break from VFDA structural repair. ☺ ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Due to the occasional combination of articles in a nomination, we have some ugly internal-page links that detract from the source text appearance, making it a little confusing to edit, and that prevent automatic sorting of the entries. I don't have a good solution for this at the moment. One might be to copy the VFD entry text across multiple subpages, giving each article its own VFDA subpage. (One example  is shown in the entries for "Jacinto Javier Bowks de la Rosa" and "James Norman Bowks Sr.", which were a single vote that I broke up into 2 entries when archiving, long before we adopted the subpage system.) However, there are some problems with this strategy as well.
 * 2) At least two entries include re-votes. If we want to migrate toward Wikipedia's subpage system, we should have separate subpages for each, the later one(s) having a number suffix to indicate a revote. This shouldn't be hard to fix.
 * 3) At least one entry ("Template:Wikimedia, Portal:portal") has one kept, one deleted page, which makes it impossible to place in one position in the list. (That's another good reason to split combined entries into individual ones.) It's currently located in the "Deleted pages" section. This particular entry's problem, however, make go away, as the kept article is likely to be deleted in the near future after a re-vote.
 * 4) Performance issues seem to be back. I still haven't done any formal testing, but VFDA seems to be taking at least as long as before to load. It may be worth the structural improvements, however, even without switching to ordinary links.

VFDA transclusions broken
The transclusion system for WQ:VFDA is now broken. I just attempted to save two more VfD entries, and neither the preview nor the saved page shows any transclusions beyond "Mike Gannon". (There are some entries beyond this one, but they're all ordinary links to transcluded entries.) Starting with "Mike mccaughan", all the entries are rendered as text, like so:

This occurs in Firefox 1.5.0.4, Opera 8.51, and MSIE 6.01, so it's not a browser issue. In fact, I looked at the HTML source, and found the following HTML comments next to each un-transcluded entry:

It looks like we've finally reached the limit of the current system. I'd like folks to read over the above discussions and think (quickly!) about what we can do to solve this problem. I'm going to be spending my time in the next few days trying to resolve some of the issues with the alternatives for this process. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I would suggest moving to multiple index (sub-)pages, either alphabetical by article title or by date. 121a0012 01:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * If we did this, we'd probably need to make at least, say, 10 pages. When we originally implemented full tranclusions, we had nearly 500 entries, which ran very sluggishly. Cutting our current 700 down to 70 each on average would give some room to expand (as well as accomodating a logical, rather than mathematical, split). But it will also be a stop-gap, as we will eventually grow these too big as well. We could expand this to per-letter or even per-category-per-letter groupings.

 * The next issue is to understand what we need the archive for so that we ensure those purposes are served by its structure. For instance, if we use it to scan for recreated articles, too many subdivisions make it time-consuming to check all the pages for improperly-blue links. If we use it to examine an area in time with a set of VfDs, chronological would be important, whereas if we're looking for specific articles, alpha may make more sense (although this is reduced in importance, perhaps, by the ability to go right to the VfD entry itself because of the subpage system). If we'd like to scan for specific text in a VfD entry, any multiple-page system (and one link-page as well, which has no details) would make this impractical. (One can use the MediaWiki search engine, but I'm not particularly confident it works very well. I can often find even text through a site-specific Google search more frequently than through it.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

After a quick review of Wikipedia's current practices, I suspect that it would be best to adapt their system of date-based logging. They have a directory of monthly logs that include links for each day's deletions. Each day page consists of transclusions of the AfDs nominated that day. Each AfD includes a header and footer that serve to advise readers not to edit the page, and to bracket a style that neatly encloses each AfD in a grey box, making the daily log more presentable (and less ambiguous) than our current system. Very importantly, adapting this system would help Wikiquote move toward the most thoroughly developed and tested system within Wikimediadom, which will help reduce confusion between these two projects.

I say "adapt", not "adopt", because we don't need quite as much structure. It would suffice, for the foreseeable future, to have a single directory page for links to each month, and each month would be an all-transclusion page like our current VFDA, only in chronological, not category/alpha, order. (This would also avoid the problem of expanding sizes of alpha-based subdivided VFDAs, as each month has a fixed, very limited size when completed. As Wikiquote grows, this could change to a daily log if needed, but that seems quite far away.)

As our problem is urgent, I am going to be extremely bold and create a new page, Votes for deletion/Log, that will contain the month links, as well as the individual month pages. This may take a little time, as I'll need to re-sort the legacy entries, but one advantage will be that I can start with July and August, so we can resume archiving almost immediately.

I invite interested Wikiquotians to monitor this process, and to consider and discuss it while I'm working on it. If there are no serious problems or reasonable alternatives proposed before it's completed, I will attempt to switch over to this new structure, then update Deletion policy (which includes our process) and Votes for deletion to reflect the new system. Better get those questions and comments in fast! ☺ ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Moving toward Wikipedia's methodology
Given that it's likely we'll have to update 700 pages of closed deletion discussions, this would be a very good time to consider changing some names and practices to move closer to Wikipedia's methods for processing and archiving deletions. I'm thinking of three issues: I implore everyone to consider these issues. I'm willing to make mass changes to pages to accomodate whatever we come up with, but it'll certainly be easier to do so if we figure out our direction sooner than later. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) If we change the parent page of our archived discussions from Wikiquote:Votes for deletion archive to Wikiquote:Votes for deletion, we'll shorten this cumbersome prefix and be one step closer to the likely eventual change to creating discussions in their own pages when they're nominated, rather than when they're closed.
 * 2) It might be time to consider changing "Votes" to something else, to de-emphasize the inaccurate implication of purely vote tallying for decisions (as Wikipedia long ago made clear). I can think of two ways to go:
 * 3) Change "votes" to "pages" or something similar, which keeps everything listed on one XfD page, as we've always had.
 * 4) Split our current VfD into AfD, CfD, TfD, etc., as Wikipedia has done. It would be good to match WP, but it would also require substantial rewriting of policies and instructions. (I don't recommend that at this time.)
 * 5) It might also be a good time to consider that nomination-on-a-subpage system, using WP's 3-step nomination process. PROS: Much better tracking of changes to individual discussions; simpler closure process; less confusion for cross-project users. CONS: Harder to submit a new nomination; must rewrite policy and instruction pages. (Since nearly all nominations are done by sysops anyway, submission may not be a significant hurdle. We would still need to commit to changing the policy pages.)

 * I'll comment on each point individually.
 * I'd support this move. It seems neater to have all the deletion disussions nested under one page, VFD, rather than having two large parent pages, one for current candidates and one for archived debates.
 * Changing "votes" to something else is a good idea, but I'd prefer to see it changed to something like "pages" rather than having AfD, TfD, CfD, etc. An overwhelming majority of deletion candidates are articles, and in my opinion having seperate pages for templates and categories seems a bit excessive. While they may be needed eventually as WQ grows, I doubt that'll be anywhere in the near future.
 * Obviously, this wouldn't be possible without adopting the first point. Nevertheless, I think this is also a good idea, as it makes archiving much easier. Revising policy pages doesn't seem to be a big problem here because this wouldn't really require an actual rewrite of deletion criteria but rather just the instructions on how to list and archive a discussion.
 * On a side note, it appears that WQ:VFDA is operational again (at least for me; I'm using FireFox 1.5.0.6 and the templates are now transcluding), but nevertheless this move to dated archives really needs to be made. If I've learned one thing from this whole dilemma, it's that we need to get to work on incorporating the speedy deletions draft into the current policy page. -- Robert 13:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've paused in my conversion of old archive pages because I think I can do a mass-conversion with AutoWikiBrowser, pending some simple tweaks from the developer. For now, it looks like LrdChaos and I are managing to move forward with the new (undocumented) system, and I hope to resume the conversion and then update the documentation in the next two weeks. Thanks for your patience. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


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Peter Benenson

Peter Benenson (born Peter James Henry Solomon; 31 July 1921 – 25 February 2005) was a British lawyer and the founder of human rights organisation Amnesty International.

Quotes

 * Open your newspaper any day of the week and you will find a report from somewhere in the world of someone being imprisoned, tortured or executed because his opinions or religion are unacceptable to his government … The newspaper reader feels a sickening sense of impotence. Yet if these feelings of disgust could be united into common action, something effective could be done.
 * Benenson (1961), in: The Observer, 28 May 1961.
 * Opening of article, which gave birth to Amnesty International.

 * Pressure of opinion a hundred years ago brought about the emancipation of the slaves'.
 * Benenson (1961), Quoted in: Paul Gordon Lauren (2011) The Evolution of International Human Rights: Visions Seen, p. 251

 * Forty years on, Amnesty International has secured many victories. Its files are full of letters from former prisoners of conscience or torture victims thanking the organisation for making a difference. Torture is now banned by international agreement. Every year more countries reject the death penalty. The world will soon have an International Criminal Court that will be able to ensure that those accused of the worst crimes in the world will face justice. The Court's very existence will deter some crimes. But the challenges are still great. Torture is banned but in two-thirds of the world's countries it is still being committed in secret. Too many governments still allow wrongful imprisonment, murder or "disappearance" to be carried out by their officials with impunity. Those who today still feel a sense of impotence can do something: they can support Amnesty International. They can help it to stand up for freedom and justice.
 * In: Amnesty International (2002) The Amnesty International Report. p. 22

title: Peter Benenson


text:
User talk:70.32.109.119

Thank you for your contributions to the Mitch Hedberg page.--Eustace Tilley 21:37, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:70.32.109.119