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D. H. Lawrence

David Herbert Lawrence (11 September 1885 – 2 March 1930) was an English novelist, poet, playwright, essayist, literary critic and painter who published as D. H. Lawrence. His collected works, among other things, represent an extended reflection upon the dehumanising effects of modernity and industrialisation. In them, some of the issues Lawrence explores are emotional health, vitality, spontaneity and instinct.

Quotes

 * I hold that the parentheses are by far the most important parts of a non-business letter.
 * Letter to Blanche Jennings (15 April 1908), Letters of D.H. Lawrence (1979), edited by James T. Boulton

 * If I had my way, I would build a lethal chamber as big as the Crystal Palace, with a military band playing softly, and a Cinematograph working brightly; then I’d go out in the back streets and main streets and bring them in, all the sick, the halt, and the maimed; I would lead them gently, and they would smile me a weary thanks; and the band would softly bubble out the ‘Hallelujah Chorus’.
 * Letter to Blanche Jennings (9 October 1908), Letters of D.H. Lawrence (1979), James T. Boulton, ed., as quoted in The Intellectuals and the Masses: Pride and Prejudice Among the Literary Intelligentsia, 1880-1939 (1992) by John Carey; also quoted in "Art for the Masses : The Death of Culture & the Culture of Death" by Ralph McInery in Touchstone magazine (September 2001)

 * My God, these folks don't know how to love — that's why they love so easily.
 * Letter to Blanche Jennings (8 May 1909), The Letters of D. H. Lawrence, ed. James T. Boulton, Vol. 1 (1979), pp. 127

 * Tragedy ought really to be a great kick at misery.
 * Letter to A W McLeod (6 October 1912)

 * Curse the blasted, jelly-boned swines, the slimy, the belly-wriggling invertebrates, the miserable sodding rotters, the flaming sods, the sniveling, dribbling, dithering palsied pulse-less lot that make up England today. They've got white of egg in their veins, and their spunk is that watery its a marvel they can breed. They can nothing but frog-spawn — the gibberers! God, how I hate them! God curse them, funkers. God blast them, wish-wash. Exterminate them, slime. I could curse for hours and hours — God help me.
 * Letter to Edward Garnett, expressing anger that his manuscript for Sons and Lovers was rejected by Heinemann (3 July 1912)

 * We have to hate our immediate predecessors to get free from their authority.
 * Letter to Edward Garnett (1 February 1913)

 * He talked to her endlessly about his love of horizontals: how they, the great levels of sky and land in Lincolnshire, meant to him the eternality of the will, just as the bowed Norman arches of the church, repeating themselves, meant the dogged leaping forward of the persistent human soul, on and on, nobody knows where; in contradiction to the perpendicular lines and to the Gothic arch, which, he said, leapt up at heaven and touched the ecstasy and lost itself in the divine.
 * Sons and Lovers (1913)

 * It's the man who dares to take, who is independent, not he who gives.
 * Letter to John Middleton Murry, 27 November 1913

 * Mrs Morel always said the after-life would hold nothing in store for her husband: he rose from the lower world into purgatory, when he came home from pit, and passed into heaven in the Palmerston Arms.
 * Sons and Lovers - Edited out of the 1913 edition, restored in 1992

 * Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!
 * Song of a Man who has Come Through (1917)

 * The nature of the infant is not just a new permutation-and-combination of elements contained in the natures of the parents. There is in the nature of the infant that which is utterly unknown in the natures of the parents.
 * Psychoanalysis and the Unconscious (1921)

 * The dead don't die. They look on and help.
 * Letter to John Middleton Murry (2 February 1923)

 * California is a queer place — in a way, it has turned its back on the world, and looks into the void Pacific. It is absolutely selfish, very empty, but not false, and at least, not full of false effort.
 * Letter (September 24, 1923); published in The Letters of D.H. Lawrence, James T. Boulton, E. Mansfield, and W. Roberts (1987), vol. 4.

 * Never trust the artist. Trust the tale. The proper function of a critic is to save the tale from the artist who created it
 * Studies in Classic American Literature (1923)

 * It was in 1915 the old world ended.
 * Kangaroo (1923) "The Nightmare"

 * Men! The only animal in the world to fear!
 * Mountain Lion (1923)

 * The Rhine is still the Rhine, the great divider... Immediately you are over the Rhine, the spirit of place has changed... It is as if the life had retreated eastwards. As if the Germanic life were slowly ebbing away from contact with western Europe, ebbing to the deserts of the east.
 * 'A Letter from Germany', written 19 February 1924, printed in The New Statesman (13 October 1934), quoted in D. H. Lawrence, Selected Essays (1950), pp. 175-176
 * The moment you are in Germany, you know. It feels empty, and, somehow, menacing. So must the Roman soldiers have watched those black, massive round hills: with a certain fear, and with the knowledge that they were at their own limit. A fear of the invisible natives. A fear of the invisible life lurking among the woods. A fear of their own opposite. So it is with the French: this almost mystic fear. But one should not insult even one's fears. Germany, this bit of Germany, is very different from what it was two and a half years ago, when I was here. Then it was still open to Europe. Then it still looked to western Europe for a reunion, for a sort of reconciliation. Now that is over. The inevitable, mysterious barrier has fallen again, and the great leaning of the Germanic spirit is once more eastwards towards Russia, towards Tartary. The strange vortex of Tartary has become the positive centre again, the positivity of western Europe is broken. The positivity of our civilisation has broken. The influences that come, come invisibly out of Tartary. So that all Germany reads Beasts, Men, and Gods with a kind of fascination. Returning again to the fascination of the destructive East, that produced Attila.
 * 'A Letter from Germany', written 19 February 1924, printed in The New Statesman (13 October 1934), quoted in D. H. Lawrence, Selected Essays (1950), p. 176

 * Out of the very air comes a sense of danger, a queer, bristling feeling of uncanny danger. Something has happened. Something has happened which has not yet eventuated. The old spell of the old world has broken, and the old, bristling, savage spirit has set in... Back, back to the savage polarity of Tartary, and away from the polarity of civilised Christian Europe. This, it seems to me, has already happened. And it is a happening of far more profound import than any actual event. It is the father of the next phase of events. And the feeling never relaxes. As you travel up the Rhine valley, still the same latent sense of danger, of silence, of suspension. Not that the people are actually planning or plotting or preparing. I don't believe it for a minute. But something has happened to the human soul, beyond all help. The human soul recoiling now from unison, and making itself strong elsewhere. The ancient spirit of prehistoric Germany coming back, at the end of history.
 * 'A Letter from Germany', written 19 February 1924, printed in The New Statesman (13 October 1934), quoted in D. H. Lawrence, Selected Essays (1950), pp. 177-178

 * Something about the Germanic races is unalterable. White-skinned, elemental, and dangerous. Our civilisation has come from the fusion of the dark-eyed with the blue. The meeting and mixing and mingling of the two races has been the joy of our ages. And the Celt has been there, alien, but necessary as some chemical re-agent to the fusion. So the civilisation of Europe rose up. So these cathedrals and these thoughts. But now the Celt is the disintegrating agent. And the Latin and southern races are falling out of association with the northern races, the northern Germanic impulse is recoiling towards Tartary, the destructive vortex of Tartary. It is a fate; nobody now can alter it. It is a fate. The very blood changes. Within the last three years, the very constituency of the blood has changed, in European veins. But particularly in Germanic veins. At the same time, we have brought it about ourselves—by a Ruhr occupation, by an English nullity, and by a German false will. We have done it ourselves. But apparently it was not to be helped. Quos vult perdere Deus, dementat prius.
 * 'A Letter from Germany', written 19 February 1924, printed in The New Statesman (13 October 1934), quoted in D. H. Lawrence, Selected Essays (1950), pp. 178-179

 * I want to go south, where there is no autumn, where the cold doesn't crouch over one like a snow leopard waiting to pounce. The heart of the North is dead, and the fingers of cold are corpse fingers.
 * Letter to John Middleton Murry (3 October 1924)

 * For Society or Democracy or any political State or Community exists not for the sake of the individual nor should ever exist for the sake of the individual, but simply to establish the Average, in order to make living together possible: that is, to make proper facilities for every man's clothing, feeding, housing himself, working, sleeping, mating, playing, according to his necessity as a common unit, an average. Everything beyond that common necessity depends on himself alone.
 * "Reflections on the Death of a Porcupine" (1925); also quoted in Hoare, Peter, and Preston, Peter, D. H. Lawrence in the Modern World, London, MacMillian Press, 1989, p.181.

 * The more scholastically educated a man is generally, the more he is an emotional boor.
 * John Galsworthy (1927)

 * Men fight for liberty, and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.
 * Poem, "Liberty's old story" in Pansies (Third typing, ribbon copy - 231 poems, c. 11-28 February 1929)

 * Every man has a mob self and an individual self, in varying proportions.
 * Pornography and Obscenity (1929)

 * Pornography is the attempt to insult sex, to do dirt on it.
 * Pornography and Obscenity (1929)

 * I can't stand Willy wet-leg, can't stand him at any price. He's resigned, and when you hit him he lets you hit him twice.
 * Willy Wet Leg (1929)

 * Censors are dead men set up to judge between life and death. For no live, sunny man would be a censor, he'd just laugh.
 * Censors (1929)

 * I never saw a wild thing Sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
 * Self-Pity (1929)

 * The tiny fish enjoy themselves in the sea. Quick little splinters of life, their little lives are fun to them in the sea.
 * Little Fish (1929)

 * What man most passionately wants is his living wholeness and his living unison, not his own isolate salvation of his "soul." Man wants his physical fulfillment first and foremost, since now, once and once only, he is in the flesh and potent. For man, the vast marvel is to be alive. For man, as for flower and beast and bird, the supreme triumph is to be most vividly, most perfectly alive. Whatever the unborn and the dead may know, they cannot know the beauty, the marvel of being alive in the flesh. The dead may look after the afterwards. But the magnificent here and now of life in the flesh is ours, and ours alone, and ours only for a time. We ought to dance with rapture that we should be alive and in the flesh, and part of the living, incarnate cosmos. I am part of the sun as my eye is part of me. That I am part of the earth my feet know perfectly, and my blood is part of the sea. My soul knows that I am part of the human race, my soul is an organic part of the great human soul, as my spirit is part of my nation. In my own very self, I am part of my family. There is nothing of me that is alone and absolute except my mind, and we shall find that the mind has no existence by itself, it is only the glitter of the sun on the surface of the waters.
 * Apocalypse (1930)

 * To the Puritan all things are impure, as somebody says.
 * Sketches of Etruscan Places (1932)

 * God is only a great imaginative experience.
 * Phoenix: The Posthumous Papers of D. H. Lawrence, pt. 4, ed. by E. McDonald, (1936)

only make manifest their own lovelessness, and the loveless never find love, only the loving find love, and they never have to seek for it.
 * Those that go searching for love
 * "Search for Love" in The Works of D. H. Lawrence, Wordsworth Editions, (1994), p. 552

Sons and Lovers (1913)

 * "I suppose that's what we do in death⎯⎯⎯sleep in wonder."
 * Ch.11
 * "To be rid of our individuality, which is our will, which is our effort⎯⎯⎯to live effortless, a kind of curious sleep⎯⎯⎯that is very beautiful, I think; that is our after-life⎯⎯⎯our immortality."
 * Ch.11
 * "Each forgot everything save the hatred of the other."
 * "I don't think I love you as a man ought to love his wife"

Women in Love (1920)

 * Humanity is a huge aggregate lie, and a huge lie is less than a small truth. Humanity is less, far less than the individual, because the individual may sometimes be capable of truth, and humanity is a tree of lies. And they say that love is the greatest thing; they persist in SAYING this, the foul liars, and just look at what they do! Look at all the millions of people who repeat every minute that love is the greatest, and charity is the greatest— and see what they are doing all the time. By their works ye shall know them, for dirty liars and cowards, who daren't stand by their own actions, much less by their own words.'
 * Ch. 11

 * But better die than live mechanically a life that is a repetition of repetitions.
 * Ch. 15

 * Mystic equality lies in abstraction, not in having or in doing, which are processes. In function and process, one man, one part, must of necessity be subordinate to another. It is a condition of being.
 * Ch. 17

Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)

 * Ours is essentially a tragic age, so we refuse to take it tragically. The cataclysm has happened, we are among the ruins, we start to build up new little habitats, to have new little hopes. It is rather hard work: there is now no smooth road into the future: but we go round, or scramble over the obstacles. We’ve got to live, no matter how many skies have fallen.
 * First paragraph

 * The world is supposed to be full of possibilities, but they narrow down to pretty few in most personal experience. There's lots of good fish in the sea ... maybe ... but the vast masses seem to be mackerel or herring, and if you're not mackerel or herring yourself you are likely to find very few good fish in the sea.

 * And dimly she realized one of the great laws of the human soul: that when the emotional soul receives a wounding shock, which does not kill the body, the soul seems to recover as the body recovers. But this is only appearance. It is really only the mechanism of the reassumed habit. Slowly, slowly the wound to the soul begins to make itself felt, like a bruise, which only slowly deepens its terrible ache, till it fills all the psyche. And when we think we have recovered and forgotten, it is then that the terrible after-effects have to be encountered at their worst.

 * Folks should do their own fuckin', then they wouldn't want to listen to a lot of clatfart about another man's.

 * I believe in being warm-hearted. I believe especially in being warm-hearted in love, in fucking with a warm heart. I believe if men could fuck with warm hearts, and the women take it warm-heartedly, everything would come all right. It's all the cold-hearted fucking that is death and idiocy.

 * The Italians are not passionate: passion has deep reserves. They are easily moved, and often affectionate, but they rarely have any abiding passion of any sort.

 * Money poisons you when you've got it, and starves you when you haven't.

A Propos of Lady Chatterley's Lover (1929)

 * We are today, as human beings, evolved and cultured far beyond the taboos which are inherent in our culture. This is a very important fact to realise. Probably, to the Crusaders, mere words were potent and evocative to a degree we can't realise. The evocative power of the so-called obscene words must have been very dangerous to the dim-minded, obscure, violent natures of the Middle Ages, and perhaps are still too strong for slow-minded, half-evoked lower natures today. But real culture makes us give to a word only those mental and imaginative reactions which belong to the mind, and saves us from violent and indiscriminate physical reactions which may wreck social decency. In the past, man was too weak-minded, or crude-minded, to contemplate his own physical body and physical functions, without getting all messed up with physical reactions that overpowered him. It is no longer so. Culture and civilisation have taught us to separate the reactions. We now know the act does not necessarily follow on the thought. In fact, thought and action, word and deed, are two separate forms of consciousness, two separate lives which we lead. We need, very sincerely, to keep a connection. But while we think, we do not act, and while we act we do not think. The great necessity is that we should act according to our thoughts, and think according to our acts. But while we are in thought we cannot really act, and while we are in action we cannot really think. The two conditions, of thought and action, are mutually exclusive. Yet they should be related in harmony.

 * Men and women aren't really dogs: they only look like it and behave like it. Somewhere inside there is a great chagrin and a gnawing discontent.

 * Of course Celia shits! Who doesn't? And how much worse if she didn't.

 * Augustine said that God created the universe new every day: and to the living, emotional soul, this is true. Every dawn dawns upon an entirely new universe, every Easter lights up an entirely new glory of a new world opening in utterly new flower. And the soul of man and the soul of woman is new in the same way, with the infinite delight of life and the ever-newness of life. So a man and a woman are new to one another throughout a life-time, in the rhythm of marriage that matches the rhythm of the year.

 * Sex is the balance of male and female in the universe, the attraction, the repulsion, the transit of neutrality, the new attraction, the new repulsion, always different, always new. The long neuter spell of Lent, when the blood is low, and the delight of the Easter kiss, the sexual revel of spring, the passion of midsummer, the slow recoil, revolt, and grief of autumn, greyness again, then the sharp stimulus of winter of the long nights. Sex goes through the rhythm of the year, in man and woman, ceaselessly changing: the rhythm of the sun in his relation to the earth. Oh, what a catastrophe for man when he cut himself off from the rhythm of the year, from his unison with the sun and the earth. Oh, what a catastrophe, what a maiming of love when it was a personal, merely personal feeling, taken away from the rising and the setting of the sun, and cut off from the magic connection of the solstice and the equinox! This is what is the matter with us. We are bleeding at the roots, because we are cut off from the earth and sun and stars, and love is a grinning mockery, because, poor blossom, we plucked it from its stem on the tree of Life, and expected it to keep on blooming in our civilised vase on the table.

 * Marriage is the clue to human life, but there is no marriage apart from the wheeling sun and the nodding earth, from the straying of the planets and the magnificance of the fixed stars. Is not a man different, utterly different, at dawn from what he is at sunset? And a woman too? And does not the changing harmony and discord of their variation make the secret music of life?

More Pansies (1932)

And it is not because the mechanism is working wrongly, that I am ill. I am ill because of wounds to the soul, to the deep emotional self and the wounds to the soul take a long, long time, only time can help and patience, and a certain difficult repentance long, difficult repentance, realization of life’s mistake, and the freeing oneself from the endless repetition of the mistake which mankind at large has chosen to sanctify.
 * I am not a mechanism, an assembly of various sections.
 * "Healing"

yet looking in a great full lime-tree of summer I suddenly saw deep into the eyes of gods: it is enough.
 * The gods are nameless and imageless
 * "What Are The Gods?"

Ah, but the simple ask for images! Then for a time at least, they must do without. But all the time I see the gods: the man who is moving the tall white corn, suddenly, it curves, as it yields, the white wheat and sinks down with a swift rustle, and a strange, falling flatness, ah! the gods, the swaying body of god!
 * I refuse to name the gods, because they have no name. I refuse to describe the gods, because they have no form nor shape nor substance.
 * "Name The Gods!"

have a game of tennis, go out in the car, do some shopping, sit and talk, talk, talk with a cigarette browning your fingers. There are no gods, and you can please yourself —
 go and please yourself — But leave me alone, leave me alone, to myself!
 * There are no gods, and you can please yourself
 * "There are No Gods"

till all is well, till all is utterly well? the lotus-lilies of the feet!
 * Who is it that clasps and kneads my naked feet, till they unfold,

I tell you, it is no woman, it is no man, for I am alone. And '''I fall asleep with the gods, the gods that are not, or that are according to the soul’s desire, like a pool into which we plunge, or do not plunge.'''
 * "There are No Gods"

Quotes about Lawrence

 * The English writers who had a big influence on me during my adolescence were Sir Walter Scott, Jane Austen, the Brontë sisters, Charles Dickens, Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, and Virginia Woolf.
 * Isabel Allende Interview

 * The picture of D.H Lawrence suggested by the obituary notices of ‘competent critics’ is of a man morose, frustrated, tortured, even a sinister failure. Perhaps this is because any other view of him would make his critics look rather silly...Lawrence was as little morose as an open clematis flower, as little tortured or sinister, or hysterical as a humming bird. Gay, skilful, clever at everything, furious when he felt like it but never grieved or upset, intensely amusing, without sentimentality or affection, almost always right in his touch for the content of things or persons, he was at once the most harmonious and the most vital person I ever saw.
 * Catherine Carswell, Time and Tide Magazine, 16 March 1930. Reprinted in H. Coombes, D. H. Lawrence; a critical anthology. Penguin Books, 1973

 * The British novelist and critic D. H. Lawrence, who lived in northern New Mexico for two years, conceptualized the US origin myth, invoking Cooper's frontiersman character Deerslayer: "You have there the myth of the essential America. All the other stuff, the love, the democracy, the floundering into lust, is a sort of by-play. The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted. "
 * Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States (2014)

 * Now he is dead, and the low-brows whom he scandalized have united with the high-brows whom he bored to ignore his greatness. This cannot be helped; no one who alienates both Mrs Grundy and Aspatia [sic] can hope for a good obituary press. All that we can do...is to say straight out that he was the greatest imaginative novelist of our generation. The rest must be left where he would have wished it to be left – in the hands of the young.
 * E. M. Forster, letter to The Nation and Athenaeum (29 March 1930), quoted in P. N. Furbank, E. M. Forster: A Life, Volume Two: Polycrates' Ring 1914–1970 (1978; 1979 ed.), p. 163

 * there are moments in The Dispossessed when I am reminded of Lawrence: for instance, a wonderful scene of lovemaking...It almost reads like Lawrence minus the sexism.
 * Carl Freedman 2006 interview in Conversations with Ursula Le Guin (2008)

 * D.H. Lawrence, De Maupassant, Chekhov, and Hemingway were also a great influence on me when I first began to write short stories, very different as they all are. But, then who is there, what modern writer of short stories has not been influenced by those four? They created the modern short story.
 * 1982 interview in Conversations with Nadine Gordimer edited by Nancy Topping Bazin and Marilyn Dallman Seymour (1990)

 * many writers seem intent on what D. H. Lawrence called "doing dirt on life."
 * Josephine Herbst "The Ruins of Memory" (April 4, 1956) in The Nation

 * Lawrence’s special and characteristic gift was an extraordinary sensitiveness to what Wordsworth called “unknown modes of being.” He was always intensely aware of the mystery of the world, and the mystery was always for him a numen, divine. Lawrence could never forget, as most of us almost continuously forget, the dark presence of the otherness that lies beyond the boundaries of man’s conscious mind. This special sensibility was accompanied by a prodigious power of rendering the immediately experienced otherness in terms of literary art.
 * Aldous Huxley, "Introduction", in The letters of D. H. Lawrence,London, William Heinemann Limited, 1932.

 * Isn’t it remarkable how everyone who knew Lawrence has felt compelled to write about him? Why, he’s had more books written about him than any writer since Byron!
 * Aldous Huxley, as quoted in Interview, The Paris Review (1960)

 * Is there no name later than Conrad's to be included in the Great Tradition? There is, I am convinced, one: D.H. Lawrence. Lawrence, in the English language, was the great genius of our time (I mean the age, or climatic phase, following Conrad's).
 * F. R. Leavis, The Great Tradition (1948)

 * when I was a kid, of course. I would read D. H. Lawrence and then I would turn out an absolute dreadful ten pages of D. H. Lawrence, or Tolstoy, or what have you, but only when I was a kid. The process of becoming a writer is the process of learning your own voice, and how to speak in your language, not somebody else's. It was along in my mid-to-late twenties that I began to get the skill to talk my own language.
 * 1988 interview in Conversations with Ursula Le Guin (2008)

 * Lawrence was a powerful early influence on me, Forster a more enduring one.
 * 2006 interview in Conversations with Ursula Le Guin (2008)

 * The number of people who can copulate properly may be few; the number who can write well are infinitely fewer.
 * Hugh MacDiarmid, Review of Lady Chatterley's Lover (1928)

 * I had a feeling that Pandora's box contained the mysteries of woman's sensuality, so different from man's and for which man's language was inadequate. The language of sex had yet to be invented. The language of the senses was yet to be explored. D. H. Lawrence began to give instinct a language, he tried to escape the clinical, the scientific, which only captures what the body feels.
 * Anaïs Nin, As quoted in D. H. Lawrence and Nine Women Writers (1996) by Leo Hamalian, p. 90

 * You live like this, sheltered, in a delicate world, and you believe you are living. Then you read a book (Lady Chatterley, for instance), or you take a trip, or you talk with Richard, and you discover that you are not living, that you are hibernating. The symptoms of hibernating are easily detectable: first, restlessness. The second symptom (when hibernating becomes dangerous and might degenerate into death): absence of pleasure. That is all. It appears like an innocuous illness. Monotony, boredom, death. Millions live like this (or die like this) without knowing it. They work in offices. They drive a car. They picnic with their families. They raise children. And then some shock treatment takes place, a person, a book, a song, and it awakens them and saves them from death.
 * The Diary of Anaïs Nin, Volume One 1931-1934

 * The way he writes about flowers and birds and turtles always gets me. I like it much better than when he writes about sex in people. It's much less self-serving (You don't want that orgasm, Frieda, really you don't) and rooted in empathy.
 * Marge Piercy Conversation with Ira Wood

 * He had a mystical philosophy of "blood" which I disliked. "There is," he said, "another seat of consciousness than the brain and nerves. There is a blood consciousness which exists in us independently of the ordinary mental consciousness. One lives, knows and has one's being in the blood, without any reference to nerves and brain. This is one half of life belonging to the darkness. When I take a woman, then the blood percept is supreme. My blood knowing is overwhelming. We should realize that we have a blood being, a blood consciousness, a blood soul complete and apart from a mental and nerve consciousness." This seemed to me frankly rubbish, and I rejected it vehemently, though I did not then know that it led straight to Auschwitz.
 * Bertrand Russell, in Portraits From Memory And Other Essays (1956), p. 114

 * It seems to us now that his system, for all its fervour, was largely negative, a mere assertion of his denial of the system of his upbringing. His God, for instance, must be the exact opposite of the 'gentle Jesus' of his childhood. There must be nothing at all gentle about the "dark" force to which the dark independent outlaws of his dreams would owe a sort of reverence. . . .The community to which Lawrence looked forward, the leaders and the led, is established. Men act, instead of wasting their energies in abstract thought. And yet, if Lawrence had seen it, he would have been appalled. Fascism finally succeeded, at least temporarily, in making the synthesis that eluded Lawrence.
 * Rex Warner, The Cult of Power (1946)

 * Although written many years ago, Lady Chatterley's Lover has just been reissued by Grove Press, and this fictional account of the day-by-day life of an English gamekeeper is still of considerable interest to outdoor-minded readers, as it contains many passages on pheasant-raising, the apprehending of poachers, ways to control vermin, and other chores and duties of the professional gamekeeper. Unfortunately, one is obliged to wade through many pages of extraneous material in order to discover and savour these sidelights on the management of a Midland shooting estate, and in this reviewer's opinion this book cannot take the place of J. R. Miller's Practical Gamekeeping.
 * Ed Zern, Field & Stream magazine, November 1959. Reprinted in Best of Ed Zern: Fifty Years of Fishing and Hunting from One of America's Best-Loved Outdoor Humorists, ISBN 1585743429

Lawrence archives

 * Guide to the D. H. Lawrence Archive at The Bancroft Library, California
 * Inventory of the D. H. Lawrence Papers, 1920-1963, University of New Mexico Libraries, Center for Southwest Research & Special Collections.
 * Collection of D. H. Lawrence Correspondence, 1920-1925, University of New Mexico Libraries, Center for Southwest Research & Special Collections.
 * Inventory of the D. H. Lawrence Photograph Collection, 1923, University of New Mexico Libraries, Center for Southwest Research & Special Collections.
 * Inventory of the Witter Bynner Photographs of D.H.Lawrence, 1922-1923, University of New Mexico Libraries, Center for Southwest Research & Special Collections.
 * Frieda Lawrence Collection
 * D. H. Lawrence resource at the University of Nottingham
 * D. H. Lawrence archive held at the University of Nottingham
 * Lawrence archive at Harry Ransom Center University of Texas at Austin
 * D. H. Lawrence Letters, 1916–1929 at Southern Illinois University Carbondale, Special Collections Research Center

title: D. H. Lawrence


text:
Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 2

 * Enough NOISE on this subject. If someone posts genuine quotes, they should stay. People can post quotes that counter some of the views if that is their disposition, and they are genuine. No one has to balance their contributions. Personally I'm not much interested in quotes from this guy past or present. ~ Achilles 23:31, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Exactly. Because you don't care about this subject, then may want not to get involved. Andries here is using Wiki projects (WP and WQ) to push his anti-guru POV, and that is not acceptable.

 * I might not be very interested in this particular person, and choose not to pay very much attention to this article, but I care about occurrences of censorship, or apparent attempts at it a great deal, and that is why I made the comment. Things seem to have been sorted out a bit more though, since I made my remark. "Long live freedom and damn the ideologies." ~ Achilles 03:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Article's balance
I have been asked to become involved in this dispute, and a link to the article Maharaji and the Denial of the Past by Michael R Finch, with an obvious anti-Prem Rawat perspective was provided in a comment on my talk page. I still seek to avoid making edits here or having things descend into a unending edit war, or to a point where the page needs to be protected. At this point, I simply must assert that this is a compendium of quotations, and quotations will nearly always have, or address, particular Points of View (POVs, in the common parlance here), that will be promoted, opposed, reflected upon, accepted, rejected, or modified by people with their own POVs. Fairness and balance are proper considerations for everyone, but they are not mandates to be required of any particular person's contributions. This article has been the center of activity between at least two people of very conflicting perspectives, who have not exhibited very much high regard for quotations that do not support their own views. Everyone of any perspective can properly contribute such genuine quotes as they perceive to be significant about the history, character, present or past aims of Prem Rawat, or any other notable person. At this point, I would say that genuine quotations should not be deleted, and whether they support or oppose certain perspectives should not be a consideration. Andries may or may not have a general anti-guru perspective, but he has every right to have "anti-Prem Rawat" perspectives, and to choose quotes that support those perspectives, and others have a right to have "pro-Prem Rawat" perspectives and choose quotes that support these. The addition of a moderate number of quotes from either range of perspectives is something I cannot object to, but the deletion of genuine quotes merely because they promote or oppose a particular POV is something I cannot support. ~ Kalki 20:21, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Kalki, thanks for your insight on this (btw, the premise of Finch's article is without merit as no one is attempting to deny the past but rather to put that past in the approriate context). I have no problems in Andries adding quotes. What I object to is the fact that Andries is plastering the article with quotes from the early days (1970's) at the expense of more contemporary quotes. I am 100% for balance, but at this moment and thanks to Andries relentless pursuit of his POV, the first section of the article has 19 quotes, of which 11 quotes are from the 1970's and 8 quotes from the 80's until today. Please read the Prem Rawat article (content of which was agreed by concensus last month) in which you can see the evolution of Prem Rawat's message and the context in which these quotes were made. Andries attempt is clearly to place as many quotes from those early days as possible so that they take over the article, as his POV is clearly anti-Prem Rawat and he believes that these quotes put him in bad light.

 * I believe that a compromise can be achieved, that is to have a good selection of quotes for the three decades since Prem Rawat started his work. This way readers of Wikipedia an Wikiquote can get the possibility of understanding the degree of evolution in Prem Rawat's presentation of his message and make up their own minds about this subject.

 * My proposal is as follows: to have on the "Sourced" section of the article, 3 or 4 quotes from each decade 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's, and leave it at that. I would think that this is a fair proposal that hopefully can be agreed by all.  I have added decade sub-sectionsto the article for this purpose. ≈ jossi ≈ 22:16, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * The addition of the sections for the decades is probably helpful, but at this point I don't support any absolute limits on the numbers of any quotations from any decade or source. I do hope that an acceptably stable balance of well chosen quotes can be arrived at relatively soon, without too much contention. ~ Kalki 22:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Jossi and Kalki, there are two good reasons to have many quotes from the seventies. First of all Rawat had his 60 seconds of fame in the 1970s. It is normal to have more quotes from or about a period of one's life that was important for society. The second reason is because the early quotes are important for the accusation of critics that current supporters give a revisionist view of the past. Jossi's attempt to limit the quotes from the 1970s to "balance" the article are part of this attempt to paint a revisionist picture of the past. Supporters even say that it is common in India to address a guru as "Lord of the universe" in their attempt to deny that claims of divinity have been made, which I think is hilarious and outrageous at the same time. Andries 08:04, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * For your information Andries, in 2004 more than fifty thousand people received the techniques of Knowledge in 700 Knwoledge sessions (and the year is not over yet). This is the largest number of people in a year since Maharaji started his work at the age of 8. Your assessment of "the 60 seconds of fame in the 70's" is hence invalid. There are more people interested in Maharaji's message now than ever before. Using your logic then we should have more quotes from 2004.

 * Thanks for that suggestion. Should be consider it?

 * Concerning your comment about "Lord of the Universe", you keep choosing to dismiss the abundant proof presented that supports the cultural context in which these were made. (read). In addition, quotes about Lord of the Universe and other statements are already included in this article. So I do not understand your accussations of "revisionism". Quotes from each one of the last three decades should be present. Not only those that in your view are negative to Maharaji's image.

 * Clearly you have no interest in pursuing a balanced view of Prem Rawat but to pursue a questionable form of therapy to address your bad pass experience with your guru. I find this pertty disturbing. ≈ jossi ≈ 14:40, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Jossi,
 * It is a fact that in the Netherlands and in the USA he had his 60 seconds of fame in the 1970s. There were quite a lot of media reports about him then and now not anymore. He is totally unknown here now, in contrast to the seventies. I don't know about India.
 * I am interested to present the relevant facts about Rawat in a NPOV way but I push back when you push your POV too much. I have done this with other gurus and religious groups and only for Rawat this has become a battle. The difference is that there is no Jossi working on other gurus and relgious groups.
 * I consider what you call proof only sophistry. I admit that a guru has an elevated status in Hinduism and Sikhism but you consider this is as proof that he claims about "Guru is greater than God and "Lord of the universe" were not to be taken seriously but that is a wrong conclusion. Those claims are taken very seriously in their cultural context. Do not blame on the followers for Rawat's mistakes. You do not understand how wrong and how unfair that is. Do you think it is strange that former followers get angry? And then you call them a hate group. How low can you go?
 * Those quotes are important as proof. They are an important part of the Prem Rawat article in Wikipedia.
 * It is true that I feel a lot of kinship with former followers due to my own experience and I can recognize my own old flawed way of reasoning that I had as a follower in your way of reasoning.
 * Andries 18:13, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Kalki:: The hope that a stable and balanced article would be achieved without some kind of limits is wishful thinking, IMO. If jossi's proposal is not acceptable to you, I would appreciate an explanation as for the reasons so that I may be able to come up with a counter-proposal that may get us there. FYI, Andries and jossi's contention extends well beyond this article, and it was only after careful negotiating that they have reached consensus on Prem Rawat's related articles at WP. If we want to help them reach agreement, we ought to find a formula that will satisfy both sides as providing balance for their POVs. --Zappaz 00:26, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I am aware of the controversy and contentions that have occurred with the Wikipedia articles as well as the articles here, and have examined them to some extent from time to time. I recognize the potentials for extremely tiresome additions and edit wars, but I do not feel there is sufficient reason to quantitatively limit the contributions of expressions from any side at this point, and genuinely do hope that there will not develop a need to do so at any point.
 * There is a clear need for the opportunity to express diverse perspectives here, but I do not perceive that there is yet a need for an imposition of any kind of balance among expressions of views upon anything. While insuring that there are fair and balanced statements in most articles is an imperative for any good encyclopedia, to minimize the occurrence of extremely unjust assertions or presumptions that are promoted, the attempt to set or formulate such balance in a compendium of quotations, can itself be excessively intrusive and presumptive. I am aware that many points of contention could occur for some time to come, but favor letting those with contending points of view have a chance to present the expressions they wish to, rather than to limit articles, or sections of them to any specific number of quotes, or any specific balance of ideas. Balance is usually a good quality to maintain and to promote, but insisting upon it as a predetermined goal in all instances, or a constant necessity usually is not, and often results in stagnation, rather than true fairness or opportunities for progress towards it. ~ Kalki 02:59, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Kalki, in many word what you are saying is "it will sort itself out given time and patience". I may agree with this strategy in other circumstances, but be forewarned that it has not worked in WP and it is unlikely that it will work here. See the additional attempt by Andries (I would call this "quote stuffing") to add more quotes of the 70's in additional articles such as Divine Light Mission. By the way, there are hundreds of addresses by PR in the 70's. Andries choses to "pick" quotes that from his POV throw a negative light on PR without even bothering to read the context in which these were made. As far as I can see he is copying these quotes from an anti-PR website.

 * Again Kalki, my feeling is that to leave this alone and without any boundaries of appropriateness, is a recipe for edit-disaster. --Zappaz 18:21, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Zappaz, In most cases I did read the context. And please note that the quotes were collected by the ex-premies as a reaction to Rawat's attempts at revisionism. And besides the same could be said about Jossi but then the opposite i.e. he chooses positive quotes from a pro-Rawat website, so I think the accusation is unfair. Andries 18:27, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Dear Andries: I am not accusing you of anything, just pointing out facts about your involvement in these articles. It is a fact Andries, that for your own personal reasons, you have chosen to become a very active critic of Prem Rawat and to use WP and WQ as a way to express that criticism. It is a fact that you have chosen to post here only what you consider to be quotes that put PR in bad light. It is a fact that you have chosen to open additional articles such as Divine Light Mission with the purpose of further "quote stuffing".  That is fair enough, but just be aware that other people feel very different than you and that these articles need to provide a balanced and neutral view of PR. Hopefully jossi and other editors will come to the rescue and add quotes from all these decades that can present a more accurate picture of PR than just the POV of a critic. From my side of things I support's jossi's proposal to put limits on the number of quotes per decade, with a caveat: let's first add enough quotes to the article to present a more accurate picture of the evolution of Prem Rawat's message through his own words, and only then see if we need to synthesize the article and reduce the number of quotes. And then let the reader decide if this is indeed revisionism or evolution ... rather than to make that assessment on their behalf. --Zappaz 19:07, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Zappaz, I will think about your proposal but I think that the remark that I want to post quotes out of context or did not read it is untrue and unfair. After all, I wanted to insert the links to the articles and texts to provide context to the reader but Jossi wrote that these links should be removed because I only did that to provide traffic to the ex-premie website. You can read our discussion about that hereabove. I think it would be better to re-insert the links to the original scans or text. Andries 19:32, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank you for thinking about the proposal. I think that it will eventually result in having a good balanced selection of quotes. Regarding links to scans, as you know (as profusely discussed in w:talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat), many of these scans are copyvios, and indeed create the sense of search engine spamming, so it is not advisable given the contention. Andries, you should not be defensive about your POV... it is your right to express it. Stating these facts in my previous response was just that ... made without prejudice or judgement on my part. --Zappaz 19:41, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Some progress seems to be occurring...
Quite a bit of discussion and dialog has now occurred, and despite the hostility of the perspectives and motives evident, some initial signs of progress towards mutually acceptable arrangements have already been exhibited. I remain hopeful that despite determined disagreement and contentions, eventual arrival at fair arrangements are possible. I continue to see no need for drastic intervention, intrusive supervision, or even overt mediation by anyone. There are many subjects that one cannot expect to fully resolve to everyone's satisfaction very easily, and time is usually required to arrive at an adequate assessment of the options that exist and many of the potentials to be considered. I do not expect full agreement to be reached on many things, but sufficient agreements can probably develop over the course of weeks, and months, if not always in days and hours. ~ Kalki 23:52, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Added quotes
I have added quotes from the 70s, 80s and 90's ≈ jossi ≈ 01:53, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Jossi, I thought that you wanted to limit the nr. of quotes from the 70s and now you add quotes yourself. I do not understand it anymore. Andries 17:51, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also added quotes from late 90's and early 2000. ≈ jossi ≈ 17:20, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Compelling reading ... thanks for the effort. Is the article is a bit too long...? --Zappaz 22:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * What I wanted is to provide quotes from each decade so that readers can see for themselves the progress and evolution of the presentation of Maharaji's message through his own words, from the very early days when he was a child, through puberty, youth and adulthood.

 * I wanted to limit the number of quotes but that proposal was struck down, so I went ahead and added quotes from each decade. Concerning Andries inquiry about quotes from the 70s, I added additional quotes, as the ones posted by Andries did not include quotes related to Maharaji's core message and were posted with the ill intention of portraying a distorted image of Maharaji, the one critics like Andries seek to promote. I feel that the current version provides a more accurate and neutral picture. and hope that you all agree with that. ≈ jossi ≈ 19:02, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Andries aditions
I object to andries aditions. Quotes are taken out of context. You need to read the whole article.
 * Then either allow me to link to the whole article or post more from the article but you have no right to removed quotes. Andries 15:36, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Context
Andries, if you want to add "selective" quotes from interviews, then you have to give context, otherwise is is unfair. Choose the "juicest" excerpt you want to satisfy your anti-guru POV, from that interview, but only one excerpt allowed. Otherwsie we need to publish the whole interview and that is not possible. ≈ jossi ≈ 03:51, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 2


text:
Free software

Free software, FOSS or Open source is software that is distributed in a manner that allows its users to run the software for any purpose, to redistribute copies of, and to examine, study, and modify, the source code.

Quotes

 * “Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer”.
 * What is free software? The Free Software Foundation

 * Software manuals must be free, for the same reasons that software must be free, and because the manuals are in effect part of the software. The same arguments also make sense for other kinds of works of practical use — that is to say, works that embody useful knowledge, such as educational works and reference works. Wikipedia is the best-known example. Any kind of work can be free, and the definition of free software has been extended to a definition of free cultural works applicable to any kind of works.
 * What is free software? The Free Software Foundation

 * My work on free software is motivated by an idealistic goal: spreading freedom and cooperation. I want to encourage free software to spread, replacing proprietary software that forbids cooperation, and thus make our society better.
 * Richard Stallman, Copyleft: Pragmatic Idealism, The Free Software Foundation

 * You may not like the fact that some information must be licensed, but that's how it is. Those who want information to be free as a matter of principle should create some information and make it free.
 * Nicholas Petreley,

 * There is no such thing as free software. Nobody develops software for charity. For innovation to continue, there needs to be value - and even open-source applications have some form of market model, which incentivises them to continue innovating.
 * Paulo Ferreira, platform strategy manager at Microsoft South Africa, March 2008

 * … there is this thing called the GPL, which we disagree with … nobody can ever improve the software.
 * Bill Gates, April 2008

 * [open source software] is long-term credible … FUD tactics can not [sic] be used to combat it.
 * Vinod Valloppillil, Microsoft Program Manager, "Open Source Software: A (New?) Development Methodology", 1998

 * Recent case studies (the Internet) provide very dramatic evidence … that commercial quality can be achieved / exceeded by OSS projects.
 * Vinod Valloppillil, Microsoft Program Manager, "Open Source Software: A (New?) Development Methodology", 1998

 * The GNU GPL is not Mr. Nice Guy. It says "no" to some of the things that people sometimes want to do. There are users who say that this is a bad thing--that the GPL "excludes" some proprietary software developers who "need to be brought into the free software community." But we are not excluding them from our community; they are choosing not to enter. Their decision to make software proprietary is a decision to stay out of our community. Being in our community means joining in cooperation with us; we cannot "bring them into our community" if they don't want to join. What we can do is offer them an inducement to join. The GNU GPL is designed to make an inducement from our existing software: "If you will make your software free, you can use this code." Of course, it won't win 'em all, but it wins some of the time.
 * Richard Stallman, Copyleft: Pragmatic Idealism

 * Paying isn't wrong, and being paid isn't wrong. Trampling other people's freedom and community is wrong, so the free software movement aims to put an end to it, at least in the area of software.
 * Richard Stallman, Free Software Magazine interview

 * Talk is cheap. Show me the code.
 * Linus Torvalds,

 * Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did.
 * Linus Torvalds,

 * For example, the GPLv2 in no way limits your use of the software. If you're a mad scientist, you can use GPLv2'd software for your evil plans to take over the world ("Sharks with lasers on their heads!!"), and the GPLv2 just says that you have to give source code back. And that's OK by me. I like sharks with lasers. I just want the mad scientists of the world to pay me back in kind. I made source code available to them, they have to make their changes to it available to me. After that, they can fry me with their shark-mounted lasers all they want.
 * Linus Torvalds,

 * So the whole 'We have a list and we're not telling you' should tell you something. Don't you think that if Microsoft actually had some really foolproof patent, they'd just tell us and go, 'nyaah, nyaah, nyaah!'?
 * Linus Torvalds, Said about Microsoft's claim that the Linux kernel infringes upon 42 of their patents.
 * Linus Torvalds, Said about Microsoft's claim that the Linux kernel infringes upon 42 of their patents.

 * Nobody should start to undertake a large project. You start with a small _trivial_ project, and you should never expect it to get large. If you do, you'll just overdesign and generally think it is more important than it likely is at that stage. Or worse, you might be scared away by the sheer size of the work you envision. So start small, and think about the details. Don't think about some big picture and fancy design. If it doesn't solve some fairly immediate need, it's almost certainly over-designed. And don't expect people to jump in and help you. That's not how these things work. You need to get something half-way _useful_ first, and then others will say "hey, that _almost_ works for me", and they'll get involved in the project.
 * Linus Torvalds,

 * The legal system doesn't work. Or more accurately, it doesn't work for anyone except those with the most resources. Not because the system is corrupt. I don't think our legal system (at the federal level, at least) is at all corrupt. I mean simply because the costs of our legal system are so astonishingly high that justice can practically never be done.
 * Lawrence Lessig, Free Culture (2004)

 * I bumped into him (Craig Mundie of Microsoft) in an elevator. I looked at his badge and said, "ah, you work for Microsoft." He looked back at me and said, "Oh ya, and what do you do?" And I thought it was some kind of tad dismissive, here is a guy in a suit looking at a scruffy hacker... so I gave him a thousand yard stare and said, "I am your worst nightmare!"
 * Eric S. Raymond, Revolution OS (2001)

 * Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.
 * Also known as Linus's Law
 * Also known as Linus's Law

 * The Many Minds Principle: the coolest thing to do with your data will be thought of by someone else.

 * FLOSS potentially saves industry over 36% in software R&D investment that can result in increased profits or be more usefully spent in further innovation.
 * Study on the: Economic impact of open source software on innovation and the competitiveness of the Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) sector in the EU

 * This existing base of FLOSS software represents a lower bound of about 131,000 real person-years of effort that has been devoted exclusively by programmers. As this is mostly by individuals not directly paid for development, it represents a significant gap in national accounts of productivity. Annualised and adjusted for growth this represents at least Euro 800 million in voluntary contribution from programmers alone each year, of which nearly half are based in Europe.
 * Study on the: Economic impact of open source software on innovation and the competitiveness of the Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) sector in the EU

 * Firms have invested an estimated Euro 1.2 billion in developing FLOSS software that is made freely available. Such firms represent in total at least 565,000 jobs and Euro 263 billion in annual revenue. Contributing firms are from several non-IT (but often ICT intensive) sectors, and tend to have much higher revenues than non-contributing firms.
 * Study on the: Economic impact of open source software on innovation and the competitiveness of the Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) sector in the EU

 * Let's put it this way: if you need to ask a lawyer whether what you do is "right" or not, you are morally corrupt. Let's not go there. We don't base our morality on law.
 * Linus Torvalds,

 * "Sharing the code just seems like The Right Thing to Do, it costs us rather little, but it benefits a lot of people in sometimes very significant ways. There are many university research projects, proof of concept publisher demos, and new platform test beds that have leveraged the code. Free software that people value adds wealth to the world."
 * John D. Carmack,

 * I personally believe open source is most important is in the operating system and in file formats. As long as those two things remain open source you can never have a monopoly. No company can dominate by any means except a superior product, and that puts the choice back into the hands of the public.
 * Michael Simms,

 * Another group has started using the term “open source” to mean something close (but not identical) to “free software”. We prefer the term “free software” because, once you have heard that it refers to freedom rather than price, it calls to mind freedom. The word “open” never refers to freedom.
 * What is free software? The Free Software Foundation

title: Free software


text:
User:Philemon~enwikiquote

This a place holder for now. Will be uploading bio, photo, quotes I believe to both be worthwhile and to have originated with me at alater date.

title: User:Philemon~enwikiquote


text:
Talk:This Other Eden (novel)

Title change
This article is currently titled The Other Eden, but the statement in List of literary works that it is authored by Ben Elton likely means that it should be titled This Other Eden. If it survives its vote for deletion, it will probably be moved to that new title. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * This article was preserved after a vote for its deletion. See its archived VfD entry for details. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:This Other Eden (novel)


text:
Talk:Bergen Evans

Title change
This article is currently titled Evans, but based on recent improvements, will probably be moved to Bergen Evans if it survives its vote for deletion. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:00, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

~ MosheZadka (Talk) 02:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Bergen Evans' Dictionary of Quotations
I was first introduced to Evans by his very own Dictionary of Quotations. Looking through it, I note that the following quotes are not mentioned (in parentheses is the heading under which I looked):

 * Lying is an indispensable part of making life tolerable. (lying)
 * Legislators who are... (legislator, legislation, leader, intelligence)
 * There is no necessary connection... (leader)
 * Wisdom is meaningless until our own experience has given it meaning. (wisdom)
 * Words are one of... (words)

Presumably, if he said them, they would be in his Dictionary. I'm leaving these under Attributed, but someone should try to find sources. I don't have a copy of The Natural History of Nonsense, but that's where they would be if they exist.

 * Most people who compile quotations are compiling other people's quotations, not their own. If this is the case here, none of these quotes would belong in Evans's article, but rather in the articles of the original quotees. If I don't hear otherwise, I plan to stop at my local library later today to see which is the case. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Evans does quote himself a few times in his Dictionary (which is where I found the source for the quote on freedom of thought), not to mention some of his commentaries. I think you'll find that the case in many quote books.  Editors can't resist the opportunity for self-insertion, especially if there's no one looking over their shoulders.  These quotes may indeed come from Evans, but it would mean that he did not find the quotes worthy of inclusion.--Superluser 02:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's another issue. Many of Evans' choicest quotes are in response to other quotes. Take, for example, this entry on conservatives or a quote misattributed to Voltaire. I think that ''Almost any college professor would echo the sentiment. The often-asserted belief that our colleges are "hotbeds of radicalism" is a ludicrous fantasy, or In reality, however, Voltaire clung to his life with zest and was not prepared to give it up to defend any piece of senseless babble--or anything at all, whether he disapproved or approved,'' would be great additions to the quote list here, but they make little sense without the quotations that they are in reference to. It would be helpful to be able to link from Evans' commentary to the entry for the quote under the author's entry. Is there a way to do that? --Superluser 03:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced

 * Legislators who are of even average intelligence stand out among their colleagues ... A cultured college president has become as much a rarity as a literate newspaper publisher. A financier interested in economics is as exceptional as a labor leader interested in the labor movement. For the most part our leaders are merely following out in front; they [only] marshal us in the way that we are going.

 * A man who won't lie to a woman has very little consideration for her feelings.

 * Lying is an indispensable part of making life tolerable.

 * There is no necessary connection between the desire to lead and the ability to lead, and even less the ability to lead somewhere that will be to the advantage of the led.

 * There is wisdom in the selection of wisdom.

 * Wisdom is meaningless until our own experience has given it meaning.

 * Words are one of our chief means of adjusting to all the situations of life. The better control, the more successful our adjustment is likely to be.

title: Talk:Bergen Evans


text:
Patriot Games (film)

Patriot Games is a 1992 film in which CIA Analyst Jack Ryan interferes with an IRA assassination and he and his family are then targeted by a renegade faction for revenge. It is the sequel to the 1990 film The Hunt for Red October.
 * Directed by Phillip Noyce. Written by W. Peter Iliff, Donald E. Stewart, and Steven Zaillian, based on the novel of the same name by Tom Clancy.

Not for honor. Not for country. For his wife and child.taglines

Jack Ryan

 * [showing Marty some pictures of the woman they're after, provided by Paddy O'Neil] Paddy O'Neill can sleep at night. In fact, he probably enjoys the irony. She's not Irish; she's English.
 * Listen! Who are we looking for here, huh? IRA terrorists or some ultra-violent faction of the IRA, fighting the cause their way? Jimmy O'Reardon checked into a hotel with a woman with long red hair. Long red hair! This is who we should be looking for! We find her... we'll find him.

Sean Miller

 * [to Ryan] Bloody proud of yourself, aren't you? You stuck your nose in where it didn't belong. And now you've killed my baby brother.

Lt. Cmdr. Robby Jackson

 * Attention to orders. I have a presentation to make. For service above and beyond the call of duty of a tourist, or even a Marine, we recognize Professor John Patrick Ryan, with the Order of the Purple Target. [he hangs a medal around Jack's neck in the shape of a bulls-eye, with the words "SHOOT ME" on it] And hope that he will duck next time, lest he become part of history, rather than a teacher of it.

Admiral Greer

 * SAS could take out any one of these camps in under two minutes. Kill everybody there and be gone before the echo fades. Are you sure this is the same woman? [Jack has a vacant look on his face] Keep at it, then.

Dialogue

 * Robby Jackson: So, you just waded on in like John Wayne. Why'd you do it? What were you thinking, man?
 * Jack Ryan: I don't know. I wasn't thinking.
 * Robby Jackson: That's it? You sound like some of my students.
 * Jack Ryan: It just pissed me off. I couldn't just stand there and watch him shoot those people right in front of me. It was... rage. Pure rage... Just made me mad.
 * Robby Jackson: Here's hoping you never get mad at me, man.

 * Annette: [while she and Jimmy O'Reardon lie in bed having sex] Oh, damn!
 * Jimmy O'Reardon: What?
 * Annette: I forgot.
 * Jimmy O'Reardon: What?
 * Annette: Where's my bag? [goes to get her purse]
 * Jimmy O'Reardon: Ah, you're not going to make me wear a rubber, are you? You know, the church says wearing one of them's a sin, darlin'.
 * Annette: [pulls out a silenced pistol] So's this, darlin'. [shoots Jimmy in the head, killing him]

 * [In the police van in Kent, en route to Albany Prison, Inspector Highland enters with two cups of coffee, and sits down with two other officers]
 * Inspector Highland: Hello, Sean. Don't mind if I come along, do ya? [chuckles as the prison convoy gets underway; all throughout, Miller is silent, staring] Although I disapprove of the things you've done, Sean, I can't quite bring meself to condemn ya. I can't, 'cause I understand where the hatred comes from. I more than understand it. But the present fact is we're very near now the darkest hole in all of Great Britain... and ya still won't speak to me.
 * [Miller remains silent; Highland scoffs and sits back, as the convoy reaches a raising bridge]
 * Officer on Radio: They're raising the bridge. We'll be here about five minutes.
 * First Officer: Understood.
 * [Suddenly, the van shakes as an RPG is fired into it, followed by several more explosions outside as the rest of the convoy is taken out; one of the officers tries to communicate with dispatch]
 * Second Officer: They've jammed the radio!
 * [Highland glares at Miller, who smirks back at him. IRA men led by Kevin O'Donnell approach the convoy; O'Donnell pounds on the door]
 * Kevin O'Donnell: Open the door! [Highland and the officers look to see O'Donnell with a hostage] Open it, or I'll kill him!
 * First Officer: The bridgekeeper!
 * Second Officer: What do we do?
 * Inspector Highland: [resignedly] We open the door.
 * First Officer: Oh, for Christ's sake, man, but --
 * Inspector Highland: But what? Wait until they kill him, and then open the door? [glares at Miller, then bangs his head against the side of the van in frustration before he opens the door]
 * Kevin O'Donnell: Your guns!
 * Inspector Highland: We are unarmed.
 * Second Officer: Just who the hell are you? [is promptly shot]
 * Kevin O'Donnell: Get them out! [the IRA men pull Highland and the other officer out and throw them to the ground, next to the bridgekeeper; O'Donnell opens Miller's cell, embracing him] Think we'd forgot about you, did ya? [undoes Miller's cuffs, and both men step out]
 * Sean Miller: Inspector Robert Highland... this is a friend of mine.
 * Kevin O'Donnell: [puts his gun to Highland's head] We meet at last, Mr. Highland. Tell me, what did they pay you to turn against your own people, eh?
 * Inspector Highland: Get on with it, and be on your way.
 * Kevin O'Donnell: Very well. If that's the way ya feel about it...
 * [O'Donnell aims... then looks over at Miller, before handing him the pistol. Miller then shoots Highland, the other officer, and the bridgekeeper dead]

 * Marty Cantor: [about Sean Miller] They were moving him to Albany Prison in the Isle of Wight while it happened. We think he's left the country.
 * Admiral Greer: Marty, excuse me. Let's deal in what we know and not what we don't. We know he's escaped. We know it happened in Kent near the Channel. If he's left the country... Jack, listening? The chances he'd come here, that he'd try, that he could come here are so remote, I have trouble even saying it.
 * Jack Ryan: And yet your first instinct was to come all the way here and tell me.

 * [about Sally Ryan, who they are there to kill]
 * Miller's Driver: Kind of cute, isn't she?
 * Sean Miller: Is she?

 * Sean Miller: I saw his wife and daughter die, but she and Neddy blew it. Ryan's still alive.
 * Kevin O'Donnell: They're not dead, Sean.
 * Sean Miller: What?
 * Kevin O'Donnell: They survived it. I can't say it any plainer than that. It doesn't matter. Your trip served its purpose.
 * Sean Miller: It does matter!

 * Jack Ryan: Hello?
 * Sean Miller: [on the phone] How's the family, Ryan? Nearly lost them, didn't you? It's easy to get at them. You should look after your family better, you know? Are you there?
 * Jack Ryan: Yeah.
 * Sean Miller: I understand your little girl's feeling better, eh? Lost her spleen though, eh? Pity, that. Make it a mighty tough on her to fight off infection. Eh, Jacky?
 * Jack Ryan: You sick son of a bitch! [Miller hangs up]

 * Cathy Ryan: It was him, wasn't it? He's never gonna leave us alone.
 * Jack Ryan: He'll never get that close to us again, honey. That's why he calls in the middle of the night. It's all he can do.
 * Cathy Ryan: You get him, Jack. I don't care what you have to do. Just get him.

 * Jack Ryan: The IRA's not responsible for all this, I know that.
 * Paddy O'Neil: Are you waiting for me to agree with you? I've been saying this to the press till I'm blue in the face.
 * Jack Ryan: That's the point, isn't it? You claim responsibility for one thing, deny it for another. Nobody believes you anymore. I want to know where Sean Miller and Kevin O'Donnell are.
 * Paddy O'Neil: [scoffs] Let me try and understand this. You want me to sell out my fellow Irishmen to you? Is that why you came down here? You don't understand me at all.
 * Jack Ryan: Oh, I think I do.
 * Paddy O'Neil: Look, I don't give a damn what they've done. But the day I that sell out my countrymen will be the day that I put a bullet through my own head.
 * Jack Ryan: That's it, then, huh?
 * Paddy O'Neil: That's it. You know, on second thought, maybe I won't have a drink with you.
 * Jack Ryan: Okay, then I'll go home.
 * Paddy O'Neil: Have a safe trip.
 * Jack Ryan: I'll go home and call the TV stations, give them what they want! Let them take their cameras into my daughter's hospital room! Put it on the evening news! [gets in O'Neil's face] I don't give a shit whether you did it or not, and neither will anyone else. But I will put such a stranglehold on your gun money, you'll be out in the street throwing rocks! I will fucking destroy you! I will make it my mission in life!

 * Jack Ryan: So, SO-13 traced the weapons used in the Lord Holmes incident to an arms dealer that supplies Qaddafi. Now, when Sean Miller escaped, he was last seen in a Zodiac heading out into the Channel in a gale, which didn't make much sense until I checked on the freighters that were out there that day. Syrian registry, known to carry arms from the Middle East to client states in the Mediterranean, including Qaddafi.
 * Rose: So, Miller takes a slow boat to North Africa.
 * Jack Ryan: Exactly. Now, we send our birds up over the desert, photographing, what, how many camps?
 * CIA Analyst: 182.
 * Jack Ryan: 182 camps a day in North Africa. Libyan bases, PLO, Red Brigade, Action-Directe, West German Red Army faction. But on the day that this particular ship docked in Benghazi, there's activity in only nine camps with people arriving. Now, this one we know for sure is PLO, this one's Shining Path, these seven we're not so sure about. Why?
 * CIA Analyst: Uh, well, we got satellites...
 * Jack Ryan: Well, because the people in those camps know probably better than we do exactly what time the satellite's going to pass overhead. And Marty, unless you authorize us to re-task those satellites so we can get a look before they're overhead from the side, we are never going to know which camp they're at.
 * Marty Cantor: Jack, do you have any idea how big a deal it is to re-task those satellites?
 * Jack Ryan: Yeah.

 * [about Paddy O'Neil and the pictures he provided to Jack]
 * Jack Ryan: Paddy O'Neill can sleep at night. In fact, he probably enjoys the irony. She's not Irish, she's English.
 * Marty Cantor: And this is the girl you saw, in the blink of an eye in a jeep as it passed you by doing 40?
 * Jack Ryan: Yeah.
 * Marty Cantor: What am I supposed to do here?
 * Jack Ryan: Tell SO-13 you know who she is. Tell them her name, give them her picture. Tell them that she poses as a rare book dealer and ask them to look for her. What do you mean, what do you do?
 * Marty Cantor: What am I supposed to do with you, Jack? You walk into a bar, half of whose customers want you dead. You walk up to the IRA's bagman, and in front of his guys, you threaten him? You're not a field man, Jack. You never were. You are an analyst. Analyze that!
 * Jack Ryan: I am not after your job, Marty. I'm after the man who tried to kill my family.
 * Marty Cantor: Then will you think? You tell O'Neil that you're looking for a girl, he gives you the pictures of a girl. He obliges you to get you off his back, and you believe him?
 * Jack Ryan: I didn't tell him I was looking for a girl, Marty.

 * Electrician: Bit of a bookworm meself, not that you'd know it to look at me. What's your passion, then? Mysteries? Spy novels? Familiar with Ian Fleming, are you?
 * Dennis Cooley: This is a rare bookshop.
 * Electrician: Rare books? Yeah, so they are.
 * Dennis Cooley: Can you locate the problem, or do I have to call someone else?
 * Electrician: Oh, I already have. The wiring in this old place dates from before the war. The first war. It's what we call, in the electrical business, "rare".
 * Dennis Cooley: Yes. Can you fix it?
 * Electrician: Oh, sure, I can fix it. Can you afford it? That's the question.
 * Dennis Cooley: Just fix it!

 * Jack Ryan: Now, it's possible there could be a woman in some of these camps. But with her and Cooley in the same place... if that is Cooley, the odds of coincidence are dropping fast. Still, I-- I don't know. There's no way I can be absolutely certain.
 * Admiral Greer: Excuse me, Jack. Tell me one thing in life that is absolutely for certain.
 * Jack Ryan: My daughter's love.
 * Admiral Greer: What I need to hear from you is your best guess, and I think I've heard it. Haven't I?

Taglines

 * Not for honor. Not for country. For his wife and child.
 * Let the Games Begin.

Cast

 * Harrison Ford - Jack Ryan
 * Anne Archer - Dr. Caroline Catherine "Cathy" Ryan
 * Patrick Bergin - Kevin O'Donnell
 * Sean Bean - Sean Miller
 * Thora Birch - Sally Ryan
 * James Fox - Lord William Holmes
 * Ellen Geer - Rose
 * Samuel L. Jackson - Lieutenant Commander Robby Jackson
 * Polly Walker - Annette
 * J. E. Freeman - Marty Cantor
 * James Earl Jones - Vice Admiral Jim Greer
 * Richard Harris - Paddy O'Neil
 * Alex Norton - Dennis Cooley
 * Hugh Fraser - Geoffrey Watkins
 * Alun Armstrong - Sgt. Owens
 * David Threlfall - Inspector Robert Highland

title: Patriot Games (film)


text:
User talk:84.94.129.61

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I listed your submission on request for deletion. You will be welcome if provide any information (and logging on, more welcomed ;-)) Please see WQ:VFD. Thank you. --Aphaia 16:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:84.94.129.61


text:
User talk:204.80.61.10

Thanks for experimenting with Wikiquote. Your test worked, and has now been reverted or removed. Please use Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing in articles will normally be reverted quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our compendium of quotations. Thanks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This address has been blocked from edits to Wikiquote for 7 days. When I posted the above warning, I had not realized that there was not only a pattern to the unconstructive edits that this user made, but that at least one appeared to be in retaliation for the deletion of a vanity article created from this IP address. That edit (removing a "Derek Devenpeck" section from my talk page) was just repeated, demonstrating the intent to continue vandal-like edits. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:204.80.61.10