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Ivan Illich: Deschooling Society/Introduction

People mentioned in the introduction

 * Everett Reimer
 * Valentine Borremans - Director of the Center for Intercultural Documentation. Cuernevaca, Mexico
 * Erich Fromm
 * Johann Jakob Bachofen
 * John Holt
 * Paulo Freire

Reimer
Illich talks about his 13 year friendship with Reimer to whom he ascribes his interest in public education. Reimer published his thoughts seperately in a book entitled School is Dead.

Reimer outlines his relationship with Illich and the subsequent train of thought that both men pursued like this in the introduction to School is Dead:

"We began to study the problems of Latin American education at about the same time and these turned out to be similar to the problems of Puerto Rico but on a vastly larger scale. It was soon clear to both of us that the countries of Latin America could not, for many years, afford schools for all of their children. At the same time education seemed to be the basic need of these countries, not only to us but to their political parties and leaders as well. In 1968 we began a part-time formal study of this dilemma and of possible ways out of it." -- Reimer, School is Dead.

The crux of Illich's argument
''Universal education through schooling is not feasible. It would be no more feasible if it were attempted by means of alternative institutions built on the style of present schools. Neither new attitudes of teachers toward their pupils nor the proliferation of educational hardware or software (in classroom or bedroom), nor finally the attempt to expand the pedagogue's responsibility until it engulfs his pupils' lifetimes will deliver universal education. The current search for new educational funnels must be reversed into the search for their institutional inverse: educational webs which heighten the opportunity for each one to transform each moment of his living into one of learning, sharing, and caring. We hope to contribute concepts needed by those who conduct such counterfoil research on education — and also to those who seek alternatives to other established service industries.''

WHY WE MUST DISESTABLISH SCHOOL

 * Starts by making a case against "institutionalization".....is this an argument for "limited government", maybe a form of libertarianism?
 * But does not seem to be against all institutions. "We need research on the possible use of technology to create institutions which serve personal, creative, and autonomous interaction and the emergence of values which cannot be substantially controlled by technocrats." Would a mainframe computer be technology "substantially controlled by technocrats" while personal computers and Web 2.0 are more about tools that "average people" can use as they see fit? Are ideas like free culture based on "values which cannot be substantially controlled by technocrats?
 * Cites Milton Friedman and ideas about methods of educational funding by which: "Funds would be channeled to the beneficiary, enabling him to buy his share of the schooling of his choice".
 * Mentions Fidel Castro: "Fidel Castro talks as if he wanted to go in the direction of deschooling when he promises that by 1980 Cuba will be able to dissolve its university since all of life in Cuba will be an educational experience." See also: Education in Cuba
 * "even with schools of equal quality a poor child can seldom catch up with a rich one" About the time that "Deschooling Society" was published, court-ordered desegregation busing became a major issue in the USA. "the mere existence of school discourages and disables the poor from taking control of their own learning" <-- How do we account for the fact that so many poor people have taken advantage of public education to better themselves?- Certainly there exist poor people who have benefited from public education, but making note of this does not invalidate the critique. A much greater percentage of poor people go to school and find it to be an oppressive establishment that doesn't speak to their experience or even meaningfully recognize the challenges they face. These students are the ones who eventually drop out of school and, in various attempts to improve their situations through socially unacceptable means (stealing stuff, selling drugs), or cope with their seemingly fatalistic lot in life (doing drugs), end up in prison.
 * By saying this you show that you've missed his entire point. "The mere existence of school discourages... the poor from taking control of their own learning"- going to puplic schools "to better themselves" is not taking control of their own education, it is in fact the very thing Illich is arguing against.  He's saying that poor people go to school instead of controlling their own education and  truly bettering themselves, which, in his opinion, is something schooling cannot do.  So, "the fact that so many poor people have taken advantage of public education to better themselves" that you mention is EXACTLY the thing he is bemoaning here.  --Luai lashire 22:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Cost. "The United States....is obviously too poor to provide equal schooling". According to the National Center for Education Statistics the United States spent 4.1 percent of its GDP on primary and secondary education in 2003.
 * And how, exactly, does that show that it is providing adequate schooling? We are throwing more than half our tax money into the war in Iraq, yet we are getting no where.  Just saying "See!  We're throwing money at it!" doesn't address Illich's point. (Disclaimer: sorry if I sound overly blunt or angry, I had a bad day and it may come through in my writing)  --Luai lashire 22:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Dr. Hutschnecker

Can we put Illich in context?
Institutions that make possible a system by which large numbers of children are sent to schools funded and run by the government first became popular in the context of industrialization and the development of modern forms of nationalism. Populations were shifting from farms to cities and and there was increasing need for a basic level of literacy and education. Also, a system of structured schooling can prepare and select for those students who are able to move on to higher education. With time, as nations and economies became more complex, the schooling institutions also became more complex while attempting to do more with a basic institutional structure for schooling that originally had a simpler mission. One way to understand the basic nature of schooling institutions is to use the analogy of the "factory school". Think of students as raw material fed into the factory school which stamps out useful parts for society. At the time Illich wrote, transformations had begun that were shifting some nations from basic patterns of industrialization to more information-oriented economies. Might new information technologies make it possible to abandon the "factory school" and replace it with new systems capable of more personalized education for increasingly creative and autonomous people?

Glossary

 * Deschooling


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Talk:Ivan Illich: Deschooling Society/Notes

JWS: you want to move these notes to: Ivan_Illich:_Deschooling_Society/Why_We_Must_Disestablish_School ... ? Countrymike 23:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

When I get a feel for where Illich is going I should be able to formulate some coherent questions. For now, these are mainly questions I am asking myself. So far, I have seen many complaints from Illich, but very little in the way of positive, workable proposals for how to do better. --JWS 14:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok. Yea, I'm finding the first chapter a bit all over the place. I've not finished it quite yet, but hope to have some thoughts up shortly. Countrymike 19:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

JWS: I'm doing a bit of housework on the group and have moved your notes from here to here. Am going to look at implementing the DynamicPageList function to try to provide an easier overview on what pages have changed in the group rathan then relying on watchlists, etc. Countrymike 21:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


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Art History/Reflections/Sona and Anna

Anna October 20 Wow! It feels like forever since I last posted a reflection! We started our research on Thursday...our only class of the week :(...and I am kind of getting really scared about the project. Sona and I decided to switch topics to Race, Class, and Gender, yet as I have started to do research, I have a feeling that this is going to be much harder than I expected. I spent the entire class on Thurday looking for images, and I did not find a single one. I think it is going to be really hard to use Art Store on this particular topic without doing prior research. That kind of stinks, becuase before I was just able to type in a topic and images fitting my topic would come up. So now, I am not sure where to start. I guess during class on Monday, I am going to go research different cultures and the roles of race, class, and gender in those cultures. Hopefully, that will get me somewhere, so I can find some images!

Anna October 22 After class today, I feel a lot better. I think that a lot of people were feeling sort of the same way I was (a little frightened/frazzled) at the beginning of class today, but I know I think I have started to get a handle on everything. I went back on Art Store and did really generic searches and started to read the descriptions to see if they had anything to do with my topic. Right now, I am just trying to find images. Once a get a bunch more, I will go back and do further research on each of the pieces I have gotten. Probably half of them will have nothing to do with my theme, but I think it is much better to have way too many images than way too little. I am really looking forward to uncovering really cool tidbits of info about my pieces and assembling my museum. Right now, we are just doing the tedious prep work that has to be done.

Anna October 25 Today, Mrs. Rich did her presentation. I found it to be really interesting, especially since I did not know at all what a fiber artist was before today. It blew my mind how people would have the patience and the drive to do what some of those people do. I am still a little nervous about our project, especially with connecting it to a theme. Our topic is so broad that I am not sure if we will be able to a pull a theme together for the whole exhibit. I am also really scared that it is going to be really challenging to come up with a theme that can tie in all of our peices, especially since we have to have works from different types of art.

Anna October 27 I am really frustrated at right now, because I feel like I am getting nowhere during class and that I have so much work to do. I am just not sure where to start or how to go about finding images, especially since race is such a broad topic.

Anna October 31 After class today, I feel a lot better about the project. I got a lot more images today, and with both Sona's and my images, we have around 50. I have a few pieces that I LOVE and that I cannot wait to research more and to definitely put in my museum. I am definitely getting much more excited at the thought of our museum!

Anna November 1 Ok, I am so excited! Class today was EXTREMELY productive! Mrs. Rich helped us SO MUCH! I feel for the first time completely on top of this project. I think we have a great selection of images, and we have found our five to put in the powerpoint tomorrow. I am really excited to present these images to the class. It feels like we have a great theme to connect all of our images. YEAH!!!

Sona Novermber 5

On Thursday Ms. Rich assisted me and Anna in selecting appropriate images from various books that she had on hand....We gleaned excellent works and found more diversity (in media) within our topic. Now, I believe we have enough variety with our images to begin the narrowing process..I feel somewhat confident about our powerpoint as we will presenting six different images from four different cultures and time periods (Chinese, ancient Egyptian, modern, and European..). The only difficulty we encounter is obtaining a manner in which the images relate, besides the generic relation of the topic..Although, we believe that demonstrating the progression (or resemblance?) of racial, class, and gender discrimination over time might present an intriguing underlying theme.

Anna November 12 Well, I was really nervous as to how in the world we are going to finish in the next two weeks. Yesterday, in class, Sona and I put together our "final" pieces that are definitely going to be in the museum, and we had a lot more than we thought. however, I am kind of worried that we are supposed to be going a lot more in depth and putting a lot more thought into what we are choosing. i hope we can get it done in time!

Anna November 15 Ok, I feel sooo much better, because we are ALMOST DONE!!!! -- well, finding images, at least. we have right now a total of 18 final images, and we think we are going to shoot for 20 in our museum. we have some really great stuff, and i am really excited to get to the fun part and put together our book. i think it is going to turn out to be really good!

Anna November 22 I just spent a few hours researching some of the images I did not have a lot of information about. I am getting really interested in some of these peices! One of my works, 104 Races of Mankind, is the subject of a documentary that I want to rent. I have gotten a lot of really good information. On Monday, I think the first thing Sona and I need to do is to write our thesis. Then, I think it will be a lot easier for both of us to connect the information about the image to our theme.

Anna November 27 2007 AAHH!! Ok, I am REALLY stressed out, because I don't know if I can get thsi done by Friday! I have done most of the historical context, but I am struggling on how to do the connections to our topic. Sona and I started to write our introduction to our book yesterday, but we did not get as much as we wanted done. Hopefully, we will be able to finsih that tomorrow!

Anna November 28 After class today I felt really good about our project...we completed our rough draft of our thisis intro. today, and i think it is really good. However, when I got home and started to work on it, I got enormously stressed out again. I would be fine if I just had to do the project, but I also have to do a ton of other work, like study for Chem, and this weekend is CRAZY for me! I am almost done with my descriptions, but I am worried about writing enough, because there is not enough information on some of my images. AAHH!! I can't wait until Monday! Then, we get to Japanese bind these books...I am sooo excited about that!

Anna November 29 WE ARE ALMOST DONE!!!! All I have to do now, is cite some of my sources and just edit my contextual paragraphs. Then, Sona and I have to go over the thesis paper...but we are SOOO close! It feels soo good to be this close to being done! I am really hoping that I can finish by the end of tomorrow!

Sona December 2 The project shall be completed by the end of today, as I rewrite our thesis paper and ensure that it applies to all of my contextual paragraphs...Our thesis worries me...We began by merely stating that artists reflect the curiosity, affinity, and conflicts for race, class, and gender within the work, yet this to lack substance...I feel as if we wrote an English paper, instead of a thought-provoking introduction into a museum. Consequently, I shall attempt to write about the domnant race, class, and gender's recurring opression and dominance while the downtrodden constantly struggle to rise (as Anna wishes to call it "the search for identity"). I hope I can develop a provocative thesis and support it with good articulation...

Anna December 11 WE ARE SOOOOOOOOOOO DONE!!!!! i am SO EXCITED b/c we FINALLY, after 3 months!, finished the book! It is absolutely AMAZING! Our work has definitely payed off! All we have to do now is do a few more podcasts and finish binding the book...I cannot wait to see the finished product! This has turned into a really AMAZING experience...the books are GORGEOUS and FABULOUS!!! I can't wait for class today!

Anna December 17 Today was our last day of class!!! I am REALLY sad! This has turned out to be my favorite class this semester. I will have to admit that I was kind of hesitant at first, considering history and art together are not my favorite subjects. However, this course has been absolutely incredible. For one, I have so much more of an appreciation for art and for all different types of art like Richard Serra's works. I had such a fun time interviewing William Anderson--it was amazing to see an actual artist's point of view. It was also neat to have Mrs. Rich come for a few days. She was very helpful and her presentation was very interesting. My favorite, by far, however, was the final project. I had so much fun putting together our museum. I loved being able to use images that I had learned about in history last year. It was amazing to be able to connect all of our images to one theme, and to be able to state that theme in our thesis. The book binding was so incredible, and I am still speechless at the final product. Even though it was hard work and stressful at some times, it was completely worth it. Thank you so much for a great semester! It was a BLAST!!!

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Portal:Health

Welcome to the Wikiversity content development project for Health. Participants in this project create, develop and organize learning resources related to human health.

Related content development projects

 * School:Medicine
 * Topic:Health Informatics
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 * Topic:Public Health & Occupational Medicine

Existing resources

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Reproductive health/Progesterone

Progesterone is a hormone that is normally found in women and it reaches particularly high levels during pregnancy. Progestins are synthetic drugs that mimic the biological actions of progesterone and they have been widely prescribed to women. This learning project allows Wikiversity participants to explore health-related topics that involve progesterone and synthetic drugs that act on progesterone receptors.

Progesterone, progestins and breast cancer
The Wikipedia articles on breast cancer and progestins do not mention that breast cancer rates appear to be increased by progestin use. Wikipedia articles for the Women's Health Initiative and Hormone replacement therapy do mention some of the clinical trial results that link progestin use to increased breast cancer risk. Recent studies suggest mechanisms by which progesterone receptors might stimulate breast tumor growth. The Wikipedia article on Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy raises the question: might progesterone use pose less breast cancer risk than use of synthetic progestins?

Why are progestins so widely prescribed?
Progestins are widely used by both younger women and older women. Younger women of reproductive age often use progestins for hormonal contraception. Older women have frequently been prescribed combinations of estogen and progestins as Hormone replacement therapy when endogenous levels of estrogen decline. Combined estrogen and progestin administration is used to limit the incidence of estrogen supplement-induced endometrial cancer.

News reports
This is a running list of news reports related to progestrone, progestins and related health issues such as breast cancer.

Lawsuits
October 30, 2007. "Wyeth is facing more than 5,000 lawsuits from those who believe they were harmed by the hormone replacement drugs, which have been used by millions of women to control the effects of menopause." Wyeth is the manufacturer of Premarin and Prempro, a mixture of medroxyprogesterone and Premarin.

The Women's Health Initiative estrogen-plus-progestin study reported an increased rate of breast cancer for women using Prempro. The Food and Drug Administration now requires that the Women's Health Initiative results for breast cancer be provided to patients who use Prempro (Label).

Brest cancer incidence
December 15, 2006. Following the release of results from the WHI Prempro clinical trial (see above), "Within six months, the drug's sales had fallen by 50 percent." Breast cancer incidence also declined during this time: "The reason, researchers believe, may be that millions of women during that time abandoned hormone treatment for the symptoms of menopause"

Epidemiological studies report that since women started to become aware of the risks associated with progestin use, decreases in incidence of breast cancer parallels the decline in progestin use, consistent with the known increased risk of breast cancer among women who use progestins.

Using progesterone rather than progestins
January 16, 2007. The North American Menopause Society (NAMS) is a nonprofit organization concerned with menopause. T.V. correspondent Dr. Emily Senay reported that the NAMS has urged doctors not to prescribe natural hormones like progesterone for menopausal women Large clinical trials have not been performed to test the efficacy and safety of natural hormones like progesterone for treating the symptoms of menopause.

Who would pay for clinical research studies on progesterone? One possibility is that government funding would be provided in an attempt to find alternatives to synthetic progestins, but is there a level playing field for discussion of such studies when drug companies make large profits from synthetic progestins? The International Academy of Compounding Pharmacists has suggested that The North American Menopause Society is not an independent voice because it is supported by progestin manufacturers.North American Menopause Society’s Ties to Wyeth Pharmaceuticals

One recent reviewer concluded that there needs to be more research on bioidentical hormones and that there is, "evidence to support their preferred use over that of their synthetic cousins." Other reviewers have reached the opposite conclision.

A major concern for use of progesterone rather than synthetic progestins is that progesterone is rapidly metabolized in the body. There are many different formulations of mixtures of estrogen and progesterone and various methods for administering them. There has been concern about quality control for progesterone both in terms of variability in amounts and efficiency of absorption. Some women have used bioidentical hormone treatments for extended periods of time without monitoring for possible stimulation of uterine tissue growth. Women should not assume that bioidentical hormone treatments are safe just because they use natural hormones. Supplements containing natural estrogen can cause endometrial cancer.

Related resources

 * Health issues in the news

title: Reproductive health/Progesterone


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Talk:Ivan Illich: Deschooling Society/Introduction

Reimer, dillema of schooling
Reimer talks of schooling/education as a 'logistical' dillema. This discourse still remains strong the narratives and strategies of international organisations like UNESCO and Education for All (part of the Millenium Development Goals) and is interestingly enough, in the context of this discussion taking place in Wikiversity, also a prevalent discourse in COLs stated vision for WikiEducator, another large scale wiki for education. What about the numbers here? The logistics of 'schooling' are, 30 years on, still stacked against universal education, yet the dream of alternative modes of education are still strong. And, seeing as we're here ... can wikis and such distributed participatory communities like these ever help to reconcile this dillema? (I'm sure we'll return to this wiki theme endlessly -- there's no real worth in hiding our own discursive game I suppose.) Countrymike 09:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I think the chapter on "Learning Webs" goes some way towards addressing this concern Country. So its not so much a question on wikis for learning, but on the structures and developmental approaches that these wiki projects are taking. I think this discussion is a good example of a deschooled use of a wiki - although there is a fair bit of schooled structure in it already - such as studying the chapters linearly, and deconstructing the content such as linking to the names mentioned etc. Don't get me wrong, I think deconstructing is very useful and it will help me discover aspects to Deschooling that I was not aware of.. I spose I'm just pointing out the possible schooled elements of our behaviour here.

 * Seeing as we are looking at the people mentioned in the intro, I think it would be worth reading the memoirs from people who knew Illich - Remembering Illich. For me, understanding Deschooling is as important as understanding Illich --Leighblackall 03:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Leigh: Thanks for the Remembering Illich link; some moving accounts of the man and his life by some close friends, I recommend that people take a moment to read it if they can. Interesting to note his emphasis on "friendship" and the power of conversations between friends, over food and wine. The wiki can facilitate the first, but we're a bit lacking in the last two round here unfortunately ... oh well, we can only hope to all meet sometime at a Wikimania ... not that you and I haven't already shared a bit of the latter in regards to these things. I also felt that the accounts go some ways to explaining Illich's style -- which I must say in this first chapter kind of confuses me; its as if his mind is all over the place from one moment to the next! ... but i'm hoping that upcoming chapters go some way towards unpacking some of the myriad thoughts he's raised so far. As far as being "schooled" ... yes, highly. Horrible grey uniforms and all, I once poetically described my schooling as being like "lemmings" (even though the part of the lemming myth i was referring to is mostly just that ... but you get the point). Are you suggesting that the book should/could be read non-sequentially? Countrymike 21:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, I think I am Country.. perhaps though, only after reading a bit about his life. But I can't be sure - having read it sequentially at first myself. How about you or someone fresh to Illich give it a go and report back? In saying all this though, it is a pretty short read all up. Especially if we consider how profound a proposal it is. --Leighblackall 23:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I just started reading this and have only finished the introduction. I was already considering skipping ahead to a chapter that deals with what to do to deinstitutionalize learning, so I have no problem with consciously choosing to read it out of sequence and report back.  For the record, I have read things out of sequence before with no trouble, but they were not so dense and complex as this, and I already had some knowledge about the things I was reading before I began.
 * I think that even my presence here shows one strength wikis have in terms of learning & discussion- all the discussion on this page is months old, and yet I can come here and read it and contribute and hopefully inspire someone to come back and revisit these ideas. --Luai lashire 22:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Luai, i think you're right, and this is one of the reasons that I think that reading groups will work quite well in Wikiversity in that they can be useful over long periods of time as discussions and notes on the texts get built up. In regards to reading Illich out of sequence ... I think a lot of people find chapter 6, Learning Webs to be quite relevant to todays learning environments. I haven't got there yet but hope to soon. Countrymike 07:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Mike, I just finished reading Learning Webs. My initial thoughts (while not very extensive or deep) are on the discussion page for that chapter, if you'd like to read them.  I did find that it was easy to understand what was going on in that chapter, so I think it would be pretty easy to read the book out-of-order and understand it.  I'll continue to read it that way and see if the  other chapters stand on their own as well.  --Luai lashire 01:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The crux of the argument

 * "Universal education through schooling is not feasible. It would be no more feasible if it were attempted by means of alternative institutions built on the style of present schools. Neither new attitudes of teachers toward their pupils nor the proliferation of educational hardware or software (in classroom or bedroom), nor finally the attempt to expand the pedagogue's responsibility until it engulfs his pupils' lifetimes will deliver universal education. The current search for new educational funnels must be reversed into the search for their institutional inverse: educational webs which heighten the opportunity for each one to transform each moment of his living into one of learning, sharing, and caring. We hope to contribute concepts needed by those who conduct such counterfoil research on education — and also to those who seek alternatives to other established service industries."

What is meant by universal education is essentially access to education.. it is the same challenge that Wikieducator has set out to help solve, but read on and I think we see that Illich is rejecting even the Wikieducator model... "It would be no more feasible if it were attempted by means of alternative institutions... new attitudes... educational [technologies].. or [holistic learning]". What is the institutional inverse? We get an idea of Illich's straight out aversion to institutionalisation when we read Remembering Illich. But what is the inverse to institutionalised learning? and would Illich be satisfied with small scale de-institutionalisation, or would he only rest when it was all undone, including "other established service industries"? To answer his own challenge, Illich proposes educational webs - or in chapter 6 Learning Webs, and this is where I think the social web aligns with Illich. But already we are witnessing the potential institutionalisation of this as well! Perhaps Wikieducator AND Wikiversity are playing into this process!? --Leighblackall 04:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

 * What is the use of access to education, if students can't learn any skills that are needed for their working carreers?--Daanschr 14:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Personally, I learnt little over my entire schooling (thru university) that directly related to the "skills" used in my career. Most of what was required for my work has been self-taught while on the job and continues to be so. Illich considers school to be completely "inefficient" in skill instruction because it is tied to a curriculum and he suggests that the development of skills would be better served by a system that matched skilled instructors with those wishing to acquire similar knowledge and experience. Countrymike 20:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 * My halfbrother spend his childhood in Tanzania and lives there at present. He said that very simple tasks like vacuum cleaning can't be done by those who are unschooled in Tanzania. A friend of his runs one hotel in England and another in Tanzania. In England he needed a staff of 6 people, while in Tanzania for a similar hotel, a staff of 100. That hasn't got to do with race, because when African people are decently educated, they can become doctors and lawyers and start working in the west to earn a better wage. General obligatory education, but also having smart parents and a lot of equipment at home, are vital for a good childhood. Deschooling means making people stupid. Stupidity causes poverty.

 * Vital skills are: being able to analyse complex information, learning several languages in a complex way (large amount of words + complex grammer), learning to be self-disciplined (being at school fulltime and making homework in the evening), learning to read books and write papers, learning to do several tasks after eachother. It is the development of the brain to adapt to complex circumstances that is at stake. I have the impression that Illich wants to live in a simple society, well go to Africa than, or to the Siberian countryside. There you can live a simple life like a true hippie. Join the neocons or the christians with their crazy simple ideologies. A school is for learning to critically examine. (Sorry, for the overheated debatingstyle, i am really anti-Illich)--Daanschr 21:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The words of which i am the most scepticle are these: I had never questioned the value of extending obligatory schooling to all people. Together we have come to realize that for most men the right to learn is curtailed by the obligation to attend school. The main reason why schooling needs to be obligatory, in my view, is that people hardly do anything without coercion. In our overpopulated world, there need to be coercion, to ensure that students perform to the minimum requirements. I have no believe that people will perform without any coercion. Skills that are necessary for society to continue will dissapear, which results into widespread poverty. Poverty leads to violence and the overthrow of governments. But, governments will never accept the deterioration of education, except when these governments don't care for their own population, or have crazy communist or neoconservative ideas.--Daanschr 14:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Daanschr: Sorry to see that you have left the project; it seems to me that there may be some real insights in Illich about Wikiversity itself perhaps further into the text, as Leigh has suggested. I'm hesitant to accept your 'coercion' thesis, and *I* read Illich's quote to mean that obligatory attendance in school often curtails the potential to learn from other organizations, social structures, or settings because we just accept, somewhat unquestioningly, that learning takes place only in the school setting. Countrymike 07:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I have the impression that schools are intended to ensure that people learn basic skills to function properly in the society. Of course learning takes place anywhere in society. Illich just presumes that we accept at presently that learning only takes place at schools. That is one in many presumptions of Illich, in which i don't agree with him.
 * It could be that Illich has some suggestions that might be welcome for Wikiversity, but i don't like the words he uses (like concentration camps) to make his point. So, i prefer to discard his text entirely and occupy myself with other texts.--Daanschr 08:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Seems to me that you are occupying yourself with this text though Daanschr... right here with us :) thanks to you, we are not going one way in our thoughts about this. I think much of what you say is well founded, and I hope we can find other more concentrated critiques of Deschooling along the lines that you express. In your example you refer to Tanzania. I think this is interesting, because Illich spent most of his working live in Bolivia. Completely different contexts, but both you and Illich refer to the needs of people in developing or impoverished economies to justify your positions.

 * For me, I have little to no experience in economies like that, so I look to Illich's Deschooling through the lens of so called developed or enriched economies. I suspect that people in such privilege have more to gain from Deschooling ideas.. mainly because we have new technologies that afford some efficiencies and measurable effectiveness to Illich's proposed socially networked learning...

 * Also, you mention ...necessary for society to continue... to justify coercion and lock-step models of learning. Perhaps then we ought to consider Illich's critique on society just as much as school. To be fair to his ideas, he is not only referring to the ills of school. --Leighblackall 23:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Illich's ideas on schooling are predetermined by his perspective on society. His perspective on society is a radical utopian one, in my view. And i oppose it. I don't believe that a society without coercion is possible and even desirable.
 * A problem with the text of Illich is his continuous use of moral statements in order to justify his views. He wants to achieve a certain utopia and describes the ills of society and his preferable solutions. For me it would be very hard to discuss such a text, since i have to resort to continuously problematizing the statements Illich makes.--Daanschr 08:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Daanschr, I know it's been months since your comment, but I was just wondering what you would say to this: That perhaps the coercions don't have to be as blatant and obvious as a law requiring one to attend school.  Let's say I'm living in a deschooled society.  I need food to survive, and for that, here, I need money.  To get money I have to perform some kind of job.  I happen to be good with my hands, so I decide to learn to make furniture to make a living.  There.  I don't even need to discuss how one would learn woodworking for the purposes of this argument.  If you read what I have said, you will see that a decision to learn was made, and it was caused by the need or desire for money.  To be honest, people are very greedy, and if they can understand on any level, even as basic as what I said above, that a skill will result in money, that will be all the reason they need.  It even works in a barter system- a skill provides something to trade- or a very basic society where there is no currency- a skill helps you get food.
 * It might be more difficult to get people to learn more complicated skills, like science, but I suspect not. My little brother taught himself engineering; I taught myself basic ornithology.  It's hard to do when you're in school, but driven people will do it anyway, because to them the process of learning and the acquisition of knowledge are the reward.  Less driven people might filter into the more basic roles and more driven people into the more complex ones.  It's all speculation, though.  Thoughts?  --Luai lashire 22:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


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Talk:Ivan Illich: Deschooling Society

Controversiality of the topic
I have the impression that this topic could be a bit controversial. My view is that schooling is mandatory in order to keep a society prosperous. In the ratrace for survival and the ever growing worldpopulation, good schooling is the most important prerequisite for a society to perform better than others, ie. to be able to be prosperous. Besides, invention is dependent on good education. The present worldwide problems with environmental depletion, mass poverty can only be overcome with invention.

In order to keep schooling effective, it needs to be a form of coercion, a duty to go to school for all children and being forced to learn. I work in education and i know how much coercion is required. I think it is needed.

I will try to get the book, though. I don't know what Illich tries to argue. At least it would be interesting to argue about the possibilities internet could have to improve society. I am interested in helping to create a community of people who are interested in policy making. A sort of volunteers with no interest in money or power, who can give advices about how specific issues in society can be handled. A learning process would be required with reading and discussing literature. That could be a bit like Illich want it to be.--Daanschr 11:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Daanschr: Yes, it certainly will be a controversial topic; at least I hope so :-) Hopefully during the course of the group we can start to unpack the differences and definitions of what "schooling" and "education" are (or might be) because I think that there may be some interesting reflections for us to explore in these two terms in regards to how wikis and Wikiversity in particular might emerge in a networked world; see my comments and questions in the Introduction discussion as well about the logistics of schooling in many societies that may no longer be able to support "schools" for the numbers of children that they have. The text should be available at a library in your area, or you can read it online here: http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html Countrymike 21:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I will read it and discuss it.--Daanschr 09:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone (here) read this book? I have read most of Illich's books, although years ago (1970).

Overall critique after some reading
Illich's main point, after reading some of his text, is that institutions refrain people from taking control over their own life, using their own morality. I prefer looking at society by focusing on social networks: family and friends especially. In order to maintain these social networks, it is necessary to keep society running. Illich doesn't see the common people spending their time with family and friends. He sees a world where strange concepts dominate and need to be overturned, in order to create a utopia that has never existed and will never exist. Illich's text is too ideological to my taste. I don't like the dramatic words he uses, like concentration camps, in order to make his point. That was the moment where i stopped reading his text and immediately moved to the conclusion. Illich is like a communist or a libertarian, with a strong desire to create the perfect society by overturning all institutions. The Soviet Union, communist China, present America show how disturbing this kind of thinking is. There is a strong desire for change, but the desired change is impossible. People are forced with violence to join the change, but the desired goal will never be achieved. It is sad.--Daanschr 15:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that the institution of school does little to increase the bonds between friends and family. A majority of the time children are separated from their family when they are in school. Also, children are not allowed to freely associate with friends at all points in the school-day. At the first level: children who are friends are often times separated by being placed into separate classes. If friends happen to be in the same class and are social with each other during class they are often separated in the classroom, or worse, they are punished for disrupting the class time.

I don't think that Illich wants to establish a perfect society. I believe his argument is more along the lines of: it is not possible to establish a perfect society through bureaucratic, and autocratic institutions, because those institutions are antithetical to his concept of a perfect society.

Merwan 02:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Structure
I like to join in this reading group. My main focus will be to let the concept of reading clubs work. In my view, structure is needed, with a minimum of edits for active participants and a schedule in which the book discussion will take place, finishing of with a deadline when a certain goal is achieved, mostly likely the end of the discussion about a book.

I am willing to edit at least once a week in this discussion. Who is willing to do that as well?

Observations on structure
The "structure" of the group doesn't seem to be working as well as I'd anticipated. There are now too many discussions I think going on in subpages and it is hard to track, especially seeing as Wikiversity doesn't have email notifications turned on or the ability to aggregate RSS feeds from other pages within the site. Perhaps some kind of template on the front page could be of help. Any ideas welcome. Countrymike 07:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks for raising this, Brent. Perhaps we could start making use of tools such as Dynamic Page Lists, as SB_Johnny suggests? It also might be worthwhile bringing this up on the Colloquium, where people of more diverse interests (like techies) have more of a chance of spotting it... Cormaggio talk 16:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Cormac, thanks for the pointer to SB's discussion (which I hope to comment on; I support his shift towards emphasizing the topic namespace). I'm looking into the DPL stuff now which looks like it could solve some of the problems in this Reading group of relying on putting ever page of the project on ones watchlist. Would be preferable to have a simpler way to view a list of just what has changed recently. Countrymike 21:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Cool. There's also "Related changes", eg Special:Recentchangeslinked/Ivan Illich: Deschooling Society. I'm still not sure what one is good for in comparison with the other - might be a question for Colloquium... Cormaggio talk 09:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Reactor-core text unavailable
The version of the text that was available at http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html seems to have been down for a few days now. I will keep checking this site or see if there isn't another version available. Countrymike 03:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

 * It's back up now. Interesting to note that the guy who is credited with "making the text available online", Paul Katz is listed as having been arrested by federal agents late 2006 (see: http://knatz.com/); but I can't find out why. He does have a blog that has some posts on de-schooling and Illich, here: http://infoall.blogspot.com/. Countrymike 00:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The book is also here: http://www.davidtinapple.com/illich/1970_deschooling.html

 * awesome, thanks! Countrymike

Is this book under copyright?
Is this book under copyright?

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Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Perri.allen. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Perri.allen~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:40, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Perri.allen~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Retsilla~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello Retsilla, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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kernewek/kernowak
Hello, looking a the history of the Cornish Department pages , it seems that you have been changing the words.For example : Kernewek Onan - to - Kernowak Onen. I welcome your contribution but, the course is being taught in Kernewek Kemmyn. I ask you please not to change the spellign from 1 system to the other as it has been decided it will be KK. We are, at the moment , contemplating pages for each spelling system , so that KK is in one place and UCR or whatever in another , but at this moment , the department is working in Kernewek Kemmyn and all the spelling correct to Dr Ken George's An gerlyver Kres (KK) Thank you very much --TheElvenLord 19:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC) Current Head of Cornish

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Retsilla. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Retsilla~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:19, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Retsilla~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:LHC05

Welcome
Hello LHC05, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:LHC05


text:
User talk:Ernest Boakye

Welcome
Hello Ernest Boakye, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:Ernest Boakye


text:
User talk:Tmv9~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello Tmv9, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Tmv9. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Tmv9~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 00:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:24, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tmv9~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Gk1024

Welcome
Hello Gk1024, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:Gk1024


text:
User talk:Billlava~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello Billlava, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Billlava. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Billlava~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Billlava~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Dr. Saleem Laghari

Welcome
Hello Dr. Saleem Laghari, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:Dr. Saleem Laghari


text:
User talk:G12bmd

Welcome
Hello G12bmd, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:G12bmd


text:
User talk:Roseg~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello Roseg, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Roseg. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Roseg~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Roseg~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Srmontanez

Welcome
Hello Srmontanez, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:Srmontanez


text:
User talk:Escaped.light

Welcome
Hello Escaped.light, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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title: User talk:Escaped.light


text:
User talk:Japan1234~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello Japan1234, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Japan1234. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Japan1234~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:12, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Japan1234~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Athenaxena

Welcome
Hello Athenaxena, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Athenaxena


text:
User talk:Dr.bhupinder

Welcome
Hello Dr.bhupinder, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dr.bhupinder


text:
User talk:VolcanicPearl~enwikiversity

Welcome
Hello VolcanicPearl, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called VolcanicPearl. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name VolcanicPearl~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:24, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:VolcanicPearl~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Vishalcdeshpande1111

Welcome
Hello Vishalcdeshpande1111, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vishalcdeshpande1111


text:
User talk:Grandlabo

Welcome
Hello Grandlabo, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Grandlabo


text:
User talk:Inelmen

Welcome
Hello Inelmen, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; for it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Cybiko123 13:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Inelmen


text:
Portal:Cornish

{| cellpadding="10" cellspacing="5" style="width: 99%; background-color:inherit ; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto"
 * style="background-color: #ffffe0; border: 1px solid #777777; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px; height: 60px;" colspan="2" |

Baner Pyran St Piran's Flag Baner Kernow  The Cornish Flag

Asran Gernowek The Department of Cornish Dynnargh dhe'n Asran Gernowek war Wikiversity, radn a'n Gresen rag Desky Yethow Estrednek e'n Scol a Yeth ha Lien
 * style="width: 60%; background-color: #ffffe0; border: 1px solid #777777; vertical-align: top; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px;" |
 * style="width: 60%; background-color: #ffffe0; border: 1px solid #777777; vertical-align: top; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px;" |

Welcome to the Cornish Language Department at Wikiversity Part of the Center for Foreign Language Learning of the School of Language and Literature

Kernowek The Cornish Language

Cornish is a Brythonic language belonging to the branch of Celtic spoken over most of Britain from prehistoric times until the Saxon invasions (c450-700 CE). It is closely related to Breton (Brittany:Breizh) and Welsh (Wales:Cymru) and more distantly to the other surviving Celtic languages, Scots, Irish and Manx Gaelic (Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man) (The Goidelic group).

Cornish went out of use as a community language during the Eighteenth Century, but was revived in the Twentieth Century and is now know to some extent by perhaps 3,000 people, of whom perhaps 500 speak it fluently. Apart from Cornwall, Cornish speakers are found wherever Cornish people have settled abroad, especially in parts of Australia (e.g. Moonta) and North America (e.g. Michigan).

Department news

 * 2nd November 2007 - Cornish Department Founded
 * }

{| cellpadding="10" cellspacing="5" style="width: 99%; background-color:inherit ; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto"
 * style="background-color: #ffffe0; border: 1px solid #777777; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px; height: 60px;" colspan="2" |

Learning
To show your interest in the Cornish Language, sign up at the Cornish stream. This will provide a record of who is learning Cornish, so you can see who else out there speaks Cornish and can speak to them.

Teaching
If you want to teach, please sign up at the Cornish stream.

 * }

{| cellpadding="10" cellspacing="5" style="width: 99%; background-color:inherit ; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto"
 * style="background-color: #ffffe0; border: 1px solid #777777; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px; height: 60px;" colspan="2" |

Current lessons

 * Kernowek Onan

Planned lessons

 * Introduction to Cornish
 * Kernowek Dew
 * Kernowek Trei

 * }

title: Portal:Cornish


text:
Cornish

Current Lessons Avaliable

 * Kernowek Onan

Cornish Department Home Page
Cornish Department

Participants
If you're interested in helping instruct or just want to learn, add your name in the appropriate list below!

Complete (or near complete) Beginners
Merlyn Cooper Rhian Davies James Fletcher Fletch 2002 00:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Paul Keeley paulk Reid Trevarthen Nick Udell Jeff Cole Daniel Archdale Vikki Hodgson Paul Young /> AC'hM : Bright new design ! Suzi Clements Jen M., from LA, CA -- beginner, some phrases -- 06/2016 Ashley Gordon Clear every dayDawne Lightbourne ~ Cornwall & other ancient Kingdoms and their language... Lihaas

Advanced Beginners
Jezz Amalveor

Proficient Students
Stephen Owen Rule: I would love to learn to enable me to teach the language better. SteCymru14 on YouTube

Scorpio: I'm interested in any Celtic language. I've already signed up at the Breton stream. I'll get more active approximately a week later.

Proficient Speakers
--Kernoweger 22:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Learners
Stephen Owen Rule: Would love to teach any Celtic language, especally a Brythonic one. I'm with Shaun on this one, except I'm helping with the Welsh, Breton and Devonian streams.... Meur ras - Diolch - Trugarez SteCymru14 on YouTube

title: Cornish