text:
Assistant teacher course/Theory formation

Analogy
The instructor should be able to supply some ideas here as the participants may not yet have the necessary understanding for cognition. Reading the Wikipedia articles on analogy and cognition should be a good start for instructors.

Relevant observations the participants can make are that
 * associations appear to be the core of cognition, not analogies.
 * analogies are useful to convey abstract associations to complex knowledge.

Theory formation
Challenging theories even if they are correct allows pupils to verify their own understanding by reconstructing each step that has been challenged. The simplest form of theory formation, one could say, is to motivate a pupil to rebuild an existing theory. This can, of course, only work if the pupils know that some theories are incorrect, otherwise the motivation to defend a position may be insufficient.

...

Conservation law of ideas
The "conservation law of ideas" is a hypothesis the assistant teachers can disprove. The instructor proposes the hypothesis and the assistant teachers have to find ways to disprove it. The hypothesis of a "conservation law of ideas" is that, due to circumstances not fully understood (probably of a psychological nature), every guidance or explanation you give has an opposite counter-effect on your own view or opinion.

As an instructor you should not cast doubt on the hypothesis too soon; the participants should be allowed to express their own doubt. If the course doesn't object you can try to add the following statement: The statement may appear to make the "conservation law" even more convincing but losing concentration isn't covered by the definition because concentration is not a matter of view or opinion, so this is stretching the definition. You can create a false sense of authenticity with a literature reference: Afterwards the instructor should explain what is wrong with this "literature reference".
 * When you try to teach an unconcentrated class you may lose your own concentration.
 * Can the "conservation law of ideas" even be found as a metaphor in literature: Did the breakdown of the "conservation law of ideas" mean doom for Fantasia?

How can the conservation law be verified? The participants should discuss methods for measurement and verification and should discuss the theoretical possibility of the phenomenon. Further topics can be how somebody could have arrived at the hypothesis at all and if there is a grain of truth in the hypothesis. The grain of truth is, of course, that the four effects described can occur (especially for teenagers) but for different reasons that shouldn't be summarized as a conservation law and that what is called an effect of a conservation law here is actually a set of possible outcomes.

If a participant complained that the circumstances hardly were "not yet fully understood" the instructor could reply that the fact had changed just now, because now the course did appear to understand them. This should be restricted to a funny remark because it may be generally useful to make the claim that something wasn't yet fully understood to invite pupils to become scientists, so the phrase shouldn't be dismantled entirely. An instructor can go on to explain that the pupil would actually have to present further literature on the issue to falsify the claim.

The "conservation law of ideas" is actually a reversal of (the positive side-effects of) being a role model, imitation and teaching.

Insightful comments are:
 * This would make teaching pointless and impossible and the opposite rather appears to be the case.
 * The putative conservation law describes a collection of mistakes to be avoided.
 * It appears to be the view of education as a scarce resource, which it isn't.

If the described conservation law did exist that could be a reason to want to know what kind of influence one had on others, including the role model one might be for others, so one could try to avoid the expected effects. An instructor should explain that the hypothetical assumption, even if disproven, may be useful to reconsider what influence an assistant teacher could have on pupils and what influences pupils could have on an assistant teacher: If the "conservation law of ideas" looks convincing your perspective is likely to be wrong.

Patterns
...

Literature

 * Meta-schoolbook Writer's Guide (Wikibooks)


text:
User talk:Jfrankc08

Welcome
Hello Jfrankc08, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  18:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

History of Hayiti
Your page, History of Hayiti, is under deletion discussion. Could you please participate in the matter? Thank you. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

French Mentoring
Salut, Jfrankc08. You are listed at the French stream as being a native French speaker interested in teaching French. The French Mentoring project has recently been launched, and if you would be willing to add your name to that list, I will make sure you are put in contact with appropriate students who would like to learn from you. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 09:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Eleraama is looking for a Mentor, and is close to your time zone. He or she is "looking for exposure to more interesting grammar and especially colloquial language".  Is this something you think you'd be interested in helping with?  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 10:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Jèrriais
Just noticed you mentioned that you have an interest in the "Jersey language". Have you visited the Norman Wikipedia? I'm always looking for other Jèrriais learners, so let me know if you ever want to know more about the language. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 06:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Dept of Haitian history
Just a quick note to say that I have seen your new dept

I might lurk a little bit and look at your content. At this point I would nearly irresponseable to join your class, I'm very busy writing a definitive textbook for US History (a learning project of the class I'm taking 'US history 101').

I have been studying the colonial period for a while, and reading up on some material that probably is basic to haiti's history. Columbus (and his removal), and the general mayhem in the carribean sea once the carribean was discovered by columbus. --JoliePA 19:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

French mentoring
Hi jfrankc08. Sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to your earlier greeting. Anyway, I'd love to practice with you! My email is austin.mullen @ gmail. com (I'm pretty sure you can email me via my userpage as well.) Daylight Savings Time is over so I'm GMT -6 now, by the way.

Salut
Comment ça va ? Je rémarque que tu apprends beaucoup de langues et que tu es très doué dans le Wikiversité...WOW. Je cherche toujours des amis français. Laisse-moi un commentaire sur ma Page Talk, si tu voudrais. I could use some help with teaching my class. KirbyPuckettFan 06:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Resalut ! Merci de m'avoir répondu...as-tu vu la page de ma  classe ?  Dis-moi ce que tu en penses.  J'ai créé un pareil cours sur Wikiversité France, où j'ai le pseudo Objet.a.  J'attends travailler avec toi ! KirbyPuckettFan 05:52, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

French Mentoring
Would you be willing to take on additional French students? If so, how many? The Jade Knight (d'viser) 07:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Jfrankc08


text:
User talk:Yennyeguigure

Welcome
Hello Yennyeguigure, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  18:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Yennyeguigure


text: Template:Atp/simpleBox

title: Template:Atp/simpleBox


text:
User talk:Vschmitz

Welcome
Hello Vschmitz, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
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 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  20:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vschmitz


text:
Brezhoneg Unan/Lesson 4/Quiz

{| cellpadding="10" cellspacing="5" style="width: 99%; background-color: inherit; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto"
 * style="background-color: #eed153; border: 1px solid #777777; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px;" colspan="2" |

Mutations to soften ("dre vlotaat")

 * }

title: Brezhoneg Unan/Lesson 4/Quiz


text:
Portal talk:Comparative religion

Classes
If someone could help fill out the classes that would be greatly appreciated. This needs to become the dominant school in the theology category. The school of Theology is way too fragmented to be of any use to anyone.

 * I changed and added. Axiology (aesthetics & ethics) precedes epistemology and metaphysics in difficulty as well as religious standards.  I am not pleased Aleister Crowley is listed but not tens of pagan and 'great' religion founders (even if we list them, Crowley may not have had the highest ethics.)  Bahá'u'lláh is less controversial than him, and is arguably the most important modern comparative religion author.Dchmelik 07:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

 * His ethics would depend largely on who you goto as your source. If you consider Nietzsche an authority on this than Crowley would easily fit in.  Feel free to add as you see fit.  Magosgruss 19:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

 * It seems I added too many 1st year classes. We should think of how to move some up.  Maybe each year could use one of the 3 or 4 philosophical fields (whether axiology or aesthetics & ethics,) and if it is 3 then 4 could either continue 3 or have the option to focus on a specific religion.  I do not think much of Nietzche; IIRC he was a moral relativist and anti-Platonic.

 * Also, when I say 'not something' except certain math, I do not mean it as negative. All beings have purpose and every incarnation can be explained to have (had) an advantage: at least a lesson.  Maybe Wikiversity is just not used much, or maybe you disliked what I said, but the writing here has been slow.  Even I can see that Crowley wrote several texts that collect facts that are hard to find, and they may be collected or explained in ways that could lead to some insight.  I have read little/no Nietzche but I could consider him to have some unusual, perhaps humourous, insight into what it is to be human.  However, I made a timeline from history's dawn to now of inspiring Philosophers, and I doubt I will ever have time to read them all.  Surely many also could not fully understand or control themselves to a degree sometimes--like even most better than average people--and I could give  examples.  I do not know if Israel Regardie had the ethics that inspire me (I recently made the school School:Ahimsa Academy) as much as his esoterism, but his work is so large I know not if I will have the chance to learn all I can about Crowley.  I do not know why I would, but I would rather than Nietzche any day if he was mainly a secular exoteric 'philosopher' that just wrote about random stuff he thought about.  The text I perused seemed that way, though existentialism has a few significant points, but both stray too far and verbosely from ages-old questions Socrates helped answer almost fully.  That is mostly what happened since mediaeval times, but IMO it is all those questions that are an excellent start for the esoteric ones--and excellent to always return to.--Dchmelik 09:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I apologize if my answer seemed dismissive, I did not intend for it to be. You're right though, I realize this was a few years ago, but not much has really been done since our initial work on this department.  Would you be willing to start it again as a project? --Magosgruss (discuss • contribs) 20:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

title: Portal talk:Comparative religion


text:
Template:Activity Submission

Level
Adjustable for beginner through intermediate.

Activity Type
Listening activity

Language Structures and Functions

 * Structures: "be" verb and prepositional phrases
 * Functions: Describing a scene

Estimated Time Required
About 15 minutes, five minutes per picture, depending on the level of the class.

Preparation
The teacher needs to find or make three pictures and a handout. The pictures should be describable at the students level. For example, a desk with objects arranged on it or a man sitting down on a chair eating cake would be acceptable for beginning students. For intermediate students, find pictures which require more specific or complex directions, such as a map or subway picture. The handout should be a regular A4 sized paper divided into four rectangles. Three of the rectangles should be empty, but a fourth should contain direction hints suitable to the students' level.

Activity Plan

 * Warm-up: Use picture or word flash cards to review targeted vocabulary including direction words. As you hold up the word have students shout out the answer.
 * Step 1: Pass out the handout.
 * Step 2: Give the directions according their English level. For example:

"Today let's draw pictures. I will tell you about a picture. Please draw it in box two. Use the hints in box one." Then begin describing the first picture. Repeat sentences as needed.
 * Step 3: Show the students the answer picture.
 * Step 4: Repeat for the last two pictures.

Variations
Speaking practice variation: Assign students a parter. Partner A will play the part of the teacher, describing a picture, and Partner B will be the student.

title: Template:Activity Submission


text:
User:Historybuff/maven

Maven is a replacement for Apache Ant. It simplifies the build structure, in exchange for a slightly more complicated pre-setup.

There is some ambiguity in some documentation; I have tried to focus on Maven 2.0.

Resources
http://maven.apache.org/guides/getting-started/maven-in-five-minutes.html

http://maven.apache.org/guides/getting-started/index.html

http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2006/03/29/maven-2-0.html?page=3

http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-12-2005/jw-1205-maven.html?page=3

http://www.developer.com/open/article.php/10930_3552026_2

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-users/200411.mbox/%3C200411090943812.SM01712@CDANIELS%3E

http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-deploy-plugin/examples/deploy-ssh-external.html

http://maven.apache.org/general.html#scope-provided

http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-deploy-plugin/usage.html

http://maven.apache.org/project-faq.html

title: User:Historybuff/maven


text:
Webcasting

Webcasting can be utilized for learning, teaching, and research. Twitter (via Periscope), Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube all have webcasting capabilities.

Discussion questions

 * What are some ways in which webcasts can be used for learning, teaching, and research?

Introduction
The Webcast Academy is for a collaborative community education to produce and host webcasts.

Equipment needed

 * Computer with camera (PC, Mac, Laptop, or Tablet)
 * Webcam
 * Microphone
 * Sound card
 * Mixer
 * Internet access

title: Webcasting


text:
User talk:Alfardan

Welcome
Hello Alfardan, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  06:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Alfardan


text:
Basics of Thelema

Thelema is a religious, spiritual, psychological, and philosophical system that was essentially founded with the penning of Liber AL vel Legis by Aleister Crowley in 1904.

Thelema (θέλημα) is a Greek word meaning "will," which is used in the New Testament to often connote God's will. In the system of Thelema, it refers to each person's unique path in life.

Liber AL vel Legis states, "The word of the Law is Thelema... Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law... Thou hast no right but to do thy will... Love is the law, love under will... There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." Therefore, the Will is obviously central to every facet of Thelema.

Related links

 * Department of Thelemic Studies
 * Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe
 * Thelemic Ethics
 * The Practice of Thelema

title: Basics of Thelema


text:
Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe

Thelema is based around the book Liber AL vel Legis which is broken into three chapters. Although the entire book is understood to be delivered by 'Aiwass,' each chapter is spoken from a certain perspective. The first chapter is spoken by Nuit, who is "Infinite Space and the Infinite Stars thereof." She is depicted symbolically on the Stele of Revealing as the night sky, arched over the winged disk and figures below. The second chapter is spoken by Hadit, the unextended omnipresent point at the core of every star at the center of the infinite circumference (Nuit).

The third chapter is spoken by Ra-Hoor-Khuit - or more specifically Heru-Ra-Ha, "the 'true Name' of the Unity who is symbolized by the Twins Harpocrates and Horus" - who is the Ancient Egyptian amalgamation of Ra and Horus. Crowley writes in Liber Samekh, "In the new Aeon the Hierophant is Horus (Liber CCXX, I, 49) therefore the Candidate will be Horus too," and in his New Comment to Liber AL III:49 he writes, "this Solar-Phallic Ra Ha is Each Man Himself." It therefore represents the Godhead within every person.

Liber AL vel Legis also proclaims, "Every man and every woman is a star;" at the core of every star is Hadit and each star Goes through the infinite expanse of potential, Nuit, according to its own nature. Essentially, the Book of the Law - or Liber AL vel Legis - symbolically places everyone in this world where every man and every woman is a star. The sole Law guiding oneself and the Universe in Thelema is "Do what thou wilt." It is said in the Book of the Law that, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (AL I:40), "Thou hast no right but to do thy will" (AL I:42), and "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" (AL III:60). Each star, every things, follows its own nature, its own Will. Crowley writes, "'Do what thou wilt' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself..." -

0=2
A common shorthand for the ontology of Thelema is known as "0=2." This equation is a shorthand for the proclamation of Nuit in the first chapter of Liber AL vel Legis:

 * "None... and two. For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union. This is the creation of the world, that the pain of division is as nothing, and the joy of dissolution all."

"None," or "Naught," or simply "0," refers to the un-differentiated non-dual substance, cognate with the Hindu 'Brahman' and/or 'Shiva,' the Chinese 'Tao,' the Buddhist 'Adi-Buddha,' the Gnostic 'pleroma,' etc. This "None" is another name for "Unity," and is used to imply the continuity of this substance. This notion comes from Liber AL when it is written,

 * "O Nuit, continuous one of Heaven, let it be ever thus; that men speak not of Thee as One but as None; and let them speak not of thee at all, since thou art continuous!"

Crowley writes on this concept of "0" in his essay "Berashith,"

 * "When we say that the cosmos sprang from the 0, what kind of 0 do we mean? By 0 in the ordinary sense of the term we mean 'absence of extension in any of the categories...' Nothingness is that about which no positive proposition is valid. We cannot truly affirm: 'Nothingness is green, or heavy, or sweet...;  Let us call time, space, being, heaviness, hunger, the categories... This is the Advaitist idea of the future of man; his personality, bereft of all its qualities, disappears and is lost, while in its place arises the impersonal Unity, The Pleroma, Parabrahma, or the Allah of the Unity-adoring followers of Mohammed. (To the Muslim fakir, Allah is by no means a personal God.)   Unity is thus unaffected, whether or no it be extended in any of the categories."

"Two" refers to the world we all are much more familiar with: the world of many dualities including light & dark, pain & pleasure, hot & cold, good & bad, etc. In Book of Lies, Crowley writes,

 * "This Abyss is also called "Hell", and "The Many". / Its name is "Consciousness", and "The Universe", among men. / But THAT which neither is silent, nor speaks, rejoices therein."

"THAT" in the quotation above refers to the concept of "0"/None. This world of "Two" is also known as "the Many" (as opposed to the One or None), "Consciousness" since our awareness of ourselves presupposes "another" separate from ourselves, often labeled the 'environment,' and "The Universe" because this world of duality is what most men call "the Universe." This state is also called "Hell" in that this state of duality, of division, is the cause of suffering. In "De Lege Libellum," Crowley writes,

 * "Understand now that in yourselves is a certain discontent. Analyse well its nature: at the end is in every case one conclusion. The ill springs from the belief in two things, the Self and the Not-Self, and the conflict between them. This also is a restriction of the Will. He who is sick is in conflict with his own body: he who is poor is at odds with society: and so for the rest. Ultimately, therefore, the problem is how to destroy this perception of duality, to attain to the apprehension of unity."

Since we live in this world of duality & division, our natural solution is to attain to unity. The one difference between Thelema and other religions is that this initial division is not seen as "Original Sin" or the "Fall of man" or anything negative. Nuit is "divided for love's sake, for chance of union," therefore division is not purely suffering but it allows us to unite in love and ecstasy. Without division there could be no love, for love requires both a lover and a loved one. This process is described commonly as "the Great Work" and "the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel."

 * "The world exists as two, for only so can there be known the Joy of Love, whereby are Two made One. Aught that is One is alone, and has little pain in making itself two, that it may know itself, and love itself, and rejoice therein."

Resources

 * Berashith (1898)
 * De Lege Libellum (1919)
 * Liber V vel Reguli
 * Individuation and the true Will (2007)

Related links

 * Department of Thelemic Studies
 * Basics of Thelema
 * Thelemic Ethics
 * The Practice of Thelema

title: Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe


text:
Thelemic Ethics

The ethics of Thelema may be summarized in its most oft quoted axiom "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Crowley writes, "There are no "standards of Right." Ethics is balderdash. Each Star must go on its orbit. To hell with 'moral Principle;' there is no such thing; that is a herd-delusion, and makes men cattle. Do not listen to the rational explanation of How Right It All Is, in the newspapers." Essentially, in Thelema, what is "right" is to do your Will, and what is "wrong" is to restrict, inhibit, repress, or divert one's, and another's, Will.

Liber OZ
The ethics, or rather the lack thereof in the context of ones Will, have been summarized in the short document, Liber OZ, the Book of the Devil, it's number being 77. It is often treated by Thelemites on par with the Decalogue. There is quite a bit controversy concerning it's fifth point:
 * 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

However, given the liberties bestowed upon it's adherents, it is as most mild in comparison to the Quran, and other religious texts.

Resources

 * Liber OZ by Aleister Crowley
 * Duty by Aleister Crowley
 * Ethics of Thelema by Erwin Hessle in Journal of Thelemic Studies, Vol.1 No.1, p.5-13
 * Thelemic Values: a new view of morality by IAO131

Related links

 * Department of Thelemic Studies
 * Basics of Thelema
 * Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe
 * The Practice of Thelema

title: Thelemic Ethics


text:
The Practice of Thelema

The practices of Thelemites are as widely varying and unique as the individuals themselves. Aleister Crowley recommended a dual regiment of "Magick" and "Mysticism." The main 'goal' is what is known most widely as "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel."

In the first line of the first chapter of Magick in Theory & Practice, Crowley writes, "There is a single main definition of the object of all magical Ritual. It is the uniting of the Microcosm with the Macrocosm. The Supreme and Complete Ritual is therefore the Invocation of the Holy Guardian Angel; or, in the language of Mysticism, Union with God." This objective should be kept in mind at all times.

Magick

 * Liber O vel Manvs et Sagittae - an introduction to the basic practices and skills of magick
 * Book Four, Part 2: Magick (Elementary Theory) - a detailed elucidation of the implements used traditionally in ceremonial magick
 * Book Four, Part 3: Magick in Theory & Practice - a detailed analysis of both the theoretical and practical aspects of Magick

Mysticism

 * Liber E vel Exercitiorum - an introduction to the basic practices and skills of yoga
 * Book Four, Part 1: Mysticism - a basic introduction to the theory & practice of mysticism, especially yoga
 * Eight Lectures on Yoga - an in-depth treatment of Thelema's version of yoga, focusing on Patanjali's Raja yoga system of meditation

Daily Practices
In general, the following practices are for daily use:
 * Liber XXV - the Ritual of the Star Ruby, a powerful banishing.
 * Liber CC - the Solar Adorations.
 * Liber XLIV - the Mass of the Phoenix, which can substitute the sundown Solar Adoration.
 * Thelemites are encourage to exorcise all persons connected to the Old Aeon with the first gesture of the Star Ruby ritual.

Related links

 * Department of Thelemic Studies
 * Basics of Thelema
 * Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe
 * Thelemic Ethics

title: The Practice of Thelema


text:
User talk:Hagopi1611

Welcome
Hello Hagopi1611, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  11:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hagopi1611


text:
Template talk:Economic topics

Division and Department is incompleted!
I basically put it in the same order as my course outline at my college but there are so many thing I don't know what it is, let alone know where I should put it. So please edit, discuss and comment to your heart desire.... Singhapan 14:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Divisions and Departments
I think that we should create something that actualy has divisions and departments and not just the topics that are covered.

Sjwillis39 18:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Economic topics


text:
User:Bhargavsp

Bhargav Prasanna is currently pursuing his Bachelors in Engineering at Meenakshi Sundararajan Engineering College, Chennai, India. He is a well known contributor to Wikipedia and loves robotics, quizzing, programming, tweaking with electronics and astronomy. He is a student member of IEEE, Mensa India, an active linux user and endorser was awarded the "Best Astronomy Buff Award" in 2004 by The Government Science and Technology Center in Chennai. The related newspaper article may be found at: http://www.hindu.com/2004/03/07/stories/2004030709820300.htm

title: User:Bhargavsp


text:
User:Bradmac

I am currently an undergraduate of Electrical Engineering at Cape Peninsula University of Technology in Cape Town, South Africa and specializing in Electronic Communication. I also make electronic music under the name operat0r. Genre's: D 'n B, Trance, Electronica. See http://www.reverbnation.com/operat0r

title: User:Bradmac


text:
Microeconomics/The Effects of Taxation

When a government imposes tax on particular goods, this action would have effects on equilibrium price and quantity. Basically, a tax is money collected by a government from businesses or individuals directly or indirectly against services provided to the community.

Sales Tax
A tax which we will deal in today's lecture is Sales tax or tax that occur when there is exchange of goods.

Specific Tax
Specific Tax is a unit-quantity tax placed on goods. For example, a tax of $5 placed on a certain good would mean a buyer/seller pays $5 as tax to government for every unit traded.

Effect on Price and Quantity
A marginal tax on sale of a given good will shift the supply curve to the left until the vertical distance between the two supply curves is equal to the per unit tax, given that other things remain equal. This will increase the market price (the price consumers buy a given good), and decrease the pay received by the sellers.

Alternatively, a marginal tax on consumption will shift the demand curve to the left, given that other things remain equal. This will increase the market price (price paid by consumers), and decrease the pay received by sellers by the same amount as if the tax had been imposed on the sellers. The end result is that no matter who is taxed, the sellers get less paid, though the consumers pay more.

Effect on Production
Tax increases the price of a good; it makes it more expensive. In economic terms, it causes demand for a good to reduce. Also, the desire of the producers (suppliers) will not be realized (fully) as their ability to earn adequate revenue slows down. However, most governments understand the impact of tax on demand and supply, so they try to support producers by providing them some incentives. A government may also introduce subsidy to sustain demand in cases where a given good is highly essential.

Taxation is necessary for welfare of any nation.

Ad Valorem Tax
Ad Valorem Tax is a tax based on value of goods or assets usually presented in term of percentage.

tax has an effect of reducing the consumption of goods and services as it led to an increase in the prices.

title: Microeconomics/The Effects of Taxation


text:
Talk:Basics of Thelema

The Will
IAO131, I suggest here that you include a summary of your essay on the will considered on 2 planes. Magosgruss 16:12 3.1.08 (UTC)

title: Talk:Basics of Thelema


text:
Active Thelema

Thelema as an Active Philosophy
Thelema is primarily an active philosophy. This can be easily observed from the prime tenet, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

Doing one's will would first require that one discover that Will. Discovery requires a bold introspective journey into the true workings of the self. Most often times this is accompanied with ceremonial magick in order to rid oneself of any kind of interference that might hinder the process.

When doing one's will, one has the whole momentum of the universe behind them as they are now operating in league with it. The saying "Do what thou wilt and no other shall say nay," best represents the result of this principle. When the Will is allowed to act freely upon the universe there shall be no obstacle deemed insurmountable.

In order to take a look inside oneself, a good practice is that of meditation. The stilling of the body allows the mind to take control. When this happens the external world begins to fade away and it becomes easier to closely examine the ego.

Another important exercise that can be undertaken to this same end is that of the Dream Journal. The dream journal is a catalog of the activities of the subconscious mind when it is most obvious in it's workings. This allows the individual to have some idea of which symbols their mind has grasped and how it is relating them to the rest of the storehouse of images. To keep a dream journal one only has to write down their dreams as soon as they wake up in the fullest detail describable and in time these dreams will become more vivid and describable.

Resources

 * Active Thelema: A Star Among Stars, All in the Night-Sky
 * Active Thelema: The Formula of the Child is Continual Growth

Related links

 * Department of Thelemic Studies
 * Basics of Thelema
 * Metaphysics - The Thelemic Universe
 * Thelemic Ethics
 * The Practice of Thelema

title: Active Thelema


text:
User talk:Barbara.braun

Welcome
Hello Barbara.braun, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
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 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  18:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

German Wikiversity
Hello, are you also active on German Wikiversity ? Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  18:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Your Experience
Barbara, you posted a comment on my blog.. Thank you for your compliments. There you will find my reply. I am also new at wikiversity and I am trying to figure out how everything works.Anicap 13:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

test

title: User talk:Barbara.braun


text: ZZ Packer "Brownies"

title: ZZ Packer "Brownies"


text:
User:Mats

I'm a swedish engineer. I've done some work on the introductory Swedish pages.

title: User:Mats


text:
Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-01

This is the chat from our meeting on 1st March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: assassingr, Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, konstantinos

19:38 - Daan joined 19:39 hi Daan 19:39 Hi erkan 19:39 * Erkan_Yilmaz wonders where assassin is 19:40 Daan you know konstantinos ? 19:40 No. 19:40 he is first time here, so we should make a good impression :-) 19:40 Hi Konstantinos, i am Daan :-) 19:40 hello 19:40 hi 19:41 no need for good impression

19:43 so, we could also start until the others come by ? 19:44 Today the main subject will be war. 19:45 yes - konstantinos you are there ? 19:45 yes 19:45 should we start ? 19:45 Last times, despite of the subject The Peloponnesian War, there were a lot of topics that were not about warfare. 19:45 But, today it will be only about war. 19:46 so Daan you wanna post your topics again ? 19:46 I will. 19:47    * During the Spartan invasion of Attica, there is a conflict between commanders and followers. Followers are angry with the lack of initiative of the Commanders, Archidamus for Sparta and Pericles for Athens. Archidamus halted the advance in Attica, hoping for an Athenian surrender to the dismay of his army. Later on he advances into Attica, pillaging the most populated region, of which... 19:47 <Daan>Thucydides describes the first months of the war. 19:47 <Daan>   * The peace was broken by the Boeotians, who tried to regain a Boeotian city, Plataea, which was allied with Athens. Plataea was an enthusiastic ally of Athens and defeated Boeotian (Theban) forces. We can discuss the breach of the oath, after which Theban prisoners of war were killed. 19:47 <Daan>   * Most people in Greece were enthusiastic about the war and they supported Sparta, because Sparta was fighting for the freedom of the Greeks. 19:47 <Daan>...the inhabitants were now in Athens. Now Pericles is suffering from complaints of his followers. the athenians want to stop the sack of their lands and blame Pericles for not marching out to meet the enemy in battle. 19:47 <Daan>   * Athens is not being besieged, because the Spartan army runs out of supply. 19:47 <Daan>   * Athenians sack the Peloponnesian coast and take some Messenians on board of their ships. 19:47 <Daan>   * Speeches of Archidamus and Pericles. Archidamus wants his men to be afraid, so they are prepared for battle. A small army could defeat a large army if the large army is not prepared. Pericles makes the Athenians feel confident by stating that athens is well prepared with a lot of money and a large army and navy. 19:47 which one is most interesting 19:47 <Daan>Wat zeg je? 19:48 according to your opinion? 19:48 <Daan>Well, i just made a summary. 19:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz is still reading 19:48 <Daan>But, i think there are some small sentences that could be interesting. 19:48 <Daan>But, now i am suffering of a hanover and can't make my mind up. 19:49 <Daan>And remember 19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then lets start at the begin and see where we spend most of the time ?

Plataea
19:49 <Daan>Lets start with Plataea 19:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 19:49 <Daan>The Greeks were pro-Sparta, but Plataea was pro-Athens. 19:50 <Daan>The Greeks wanted there own tiny states to be independent of Athens. 19:50 <Daan>But, Plataea was dependent of Boetia, Thebes. 19:50 <Daan>And, was allied to athens to be independent of the Boeotians. 19:50 <Daan>So, it says something about freedom. 19:50 <Daan>When are you free? 19:51 actually they where subdued to Athens 19:51 that means not free 19:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so they had to pay tributes and other means 19:52 The big alliances were kept alive 19:52 <Daan>But, they didn't want to fight on the Spartan side. 19:52 with taxes 19:52 <Daan>And become part of Boeotia. 19:52 <Daan>The Thebans wanted to liberate them, but they chose athens out of their own free will. 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't there the oath by the Greeks that they told plataea to be free forever and protect them from slavery ? 19:53 Thebans I think were acting on Spartan side actually 19:53 <Daan>Yes, that is true. 19:53 <Daan>But, i don't know about what erkan said. 19:53 that means 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or do I mix the city ? 19:53 <Daan>Erkan, was the oath made by Athens? 19:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>was it Marathon ? 19:54 that they were endangering the city state 19:54 builted 19:54 <Daan>I don't know. 19:54 upon thw consensus of dempocratic way of living 19:54 <Daan>So, Plataea was democratic? 19:54 no city in Greece 19:54 was actually 19:55 democratic 19:55 according to this era model yes 19:55 <Daan>A bit democratic as opposed to oligarchy. 19:55 yes 19:55 <Daan>But, Athens was democratic? 19:55 no 19:56 <Daan>At least male citizens could vote. 19:56 even for the standards of this era 19:56 <Daan>How did it work then? 19:56 we know that for a population o 43.000 citizensxd 19:56 3.000 were voting actually 19:57 that means 19:57 <Daan>That is little indeed. 19:57 that even for athenian standards 19:57 <Daan>Those who worked, couldn't vote? 19:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about the oath: in 479 king Pausanias made the Greeks swear the oath to protect Platea 19:57 every decision 19:57 <Daan>Aha 19:57 was not based upon immidiate democracy 19:57 <Daan>Erkan, i saw it on Wikipedia. 19:58 <Daan>But, Pausanias was Spartan, not athenian. 19:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but was it not against the Persians, when they all foght against them ? 19:58 yes 19:58 <Daan>Ys, that is true. 19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, Platea became on own will ally of Athens then ? or Athens forced them to join ? 19:59 i am afraid this oath belongs to another context 19:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well then let's go back to what you just discussed 19:59 there are two distinct periods of athenian hegemeny 19:59 hegemony 19:59 <Daan>4th and 3rd century? 19:59 first after the persian wars 20:00 arhenians declared their will 20:00 to protect cities states of greece 20:00 the secopnd part is worst 20:00 athenians are hegemones 20:00 that means rulers 20:00 <Daan>Yes. 20:01 and they use brutal force 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so when Athens had more influence they became "corrupt" and misused their allies 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>? 20:01 yes 20:01 <Daan>And Plataea was first protected by the oath and later on ruled by Athens? 20:01 absolutely 20:01 Yes 20:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well they should have build their city in another area :-) 20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>right at the border is quite tasty for both sides 20:02 - assassingr joined 20:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi assassingr 20:02 <Daan>Well, there is a context. Many city states that ought to be protected became lazy, according to the Athenians, and needed to be disciplined. Forced to supply a navy and an army. 20:02 <Daan>Hi Assassingr! 20:02 hi guys 20:02 τηατ ισ τηε ατηενιαν ποιντ οφ ωιες 20:03 :) 20:03 thats the athenian point of view 20:03 hi assassine 20:03 <Daan>I read the English translation. 20:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also: the cost for supplying ships and troops seemed higher and so they began to paying tributes instead and giving therefore more power (in military sense) to Athens 20:03 <Daan>I can't understand Greek. 20:03 * Erkan_Yilmaz doesnt know Greek also 20:04 <Daan>Shall we move on? 20:04 yeap 20:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok

Messenians seem to support Athens
20:04 <Daan>The Messenians seem to support Athens. 20:04 <Daan>I think. 20:05 that is natural 20:05 <Daan>Yes, they were slaves of Sparta. 20:05 they have a heavy conflict with spartansw 20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>werent they because of that settled some time to Naupactos by Athens ? 20:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what was the conflict ? 20:05 <Daan>They entered the Athenian ships, according to the text. 20:05 <Daan>Sparta had occupied Messenian lands for centuries. 20:06 No Messenians were at times enslaved by spartans 20:06 that means 20:06 the pure reason 20:06 was their independence 20:06 <Daan>They wanted to be freed. 20:06 <Daan>Okay. 20:07 <Daan>But, also independence within their own territory. 20:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting, normally Sparta made allies "just" change their government structure - how were they different than the helots ? 20:07 <Daan>Slaves can run away and live somewhere else. 20:07 <Daan>Weren't the Messenians Helots? 20:07 they were perioikoi actually 20:07 most of them 20:07 <Daan>What are perioikoi? 20:07 people leaving around thew city 20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periokoi 20:08 but have no citizenship 20:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see 20:08 they are obliged though to go to the war 20:08 <Daan>Just like in the Athenians Empire. 20:09 <Daan>The Messenians had nothing to lose. 20:09 <Daan>Either one master or the other. 20:09 Yes 20:09 <Daan>But, the Athenians hadn't done anything wrong yet to them. 20:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because they wanted allies in Peloponnesian territory ? :-) 20:10 to messenians? 20:10 <Daan>Yes, or less wrong? 20:10 <Daan>Erkan, the Athenians surely wanted that. 20:10 if you have a powerfull ally in the door step of your enemy

Persia as ally
20:11 <Daan>The text says that both Sparta and athens tried to get all the allies they could get. They both went to Persia. 20:11 then you create suspicion 20:11 that is true they went to persia 20:11 their big mistaker 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Persia didn't do much at begin of the Peloponnesian War or ? 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I think the text says they wanted to send people to Persia 20:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>book II 7 20:12 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks 20:13 Persia had every reason to keep Greece divided 20:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>interesting the German and ENG text are different in this passage 20:13 <Daan>Yes. It is the typical policy of a major empire. The Chinese did the same in Mongolia and the Romans in germany. 20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the ENG text says they resolved to do 20:14 <Daan>Strange. 20:14 <Daan>Well, Konstantinos can say which text is right. 20:14 both came in contact with persia 20:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Chinese do this also in the normal business :-) the business chief has always a spy in the team - but nobody knows who the spy is 20:15 <Daan>Cool ;) 20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true konstantinos can do this best 20:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Persia: divide and conquer 20:16 that lokks like modern politics 20:16 <Daan>Modern politics? It is politics. 20:16 especially for Balkan people 20:16 anyway 20:17 <Daan>Yes, in holland there is more a liberal attitude of coresponsibility to create wealth together. 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably because the air in holland makes people more relaxed than in other countries (or am I just biased now?) 20:18 heh 20:18 <Daan>The air is polutted :) 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) sorry when I insult someone now 20:18 no mountains 20:18 <Daan>That is Dutch wealth :) 20:18 perhaps you are right 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I see 20:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I meant because of the drug shops and so 20:19 <Daan>Hardly anyone uses drugs in Holland. 20:19 <Daan>The strange thing about a liberal drug policy is that it reduces problems with drugs. 20:19 thats good or bad? 20:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, you see what kind of prejudice there is 20:19 <Daan>Yes, of course it is good. 20:20 <Daan>But, lets discuss the text. 20:20 I think the liberal model is the most succesfull 20:20 <Daan>What about the main military leaders Archidamus and Pericles. 20:20 <Daan>Yes, it is. 20:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, let's continue 20:20 <Daan>But it depends on your interest. 20:20 <Daan>It is best when you want a society where all people can live a decent live. 20:20 <Daan>life. 20:21 every human being deserves that 20:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Sparta also had this moto: liberate Greece 20:21 <Daan>I agree. 20:21 <Daan>That is what i tried to make difficult. 20:21 this was excuse I think 20:21 <Daan>Plataea and the Messenians are examples that this ideal wasn't right. 20:22 <Daan>I don't think so. I think the Spartans wanted peace. 20:22 Of course 20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure if this idea was so as it is in the times back then 20:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probabyl it was more like: the strong survives 20:22 <Daan>At least they were afraid of the Athenian power. 20:23 <Daan>But there is also an appeal to freedom. 20:23 So why they were engeged to war?\ 20:23 <Daan>Freedom means leaving people be, so you don't have to be strong. 20:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Spartans wanted peace: I guess they wanted that their foundation/structure does not get changed/interrupted too much 20:24 engaged 20:24 <Daan>Yes, but the Corinthians had to convince the Greeks that taxes and warfare where only temporary. 20:24 <Daan>Otherwise they could have lost the vote. 20:24 <Daan>They wanted freedom and most Greeks as well. 20:24 I Believe both wanted and end to this important question 20:24 who is rulingt Greece? 20:24 <Daan>Or, at least that is what i get from this text. 20:24 <Daan>Several small states. 20:25 <Daan>There wasn't a ruler. 20:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well there are the two hegemons and their influence territory 20:25 <Daan>But, the Greeks were afraid of becoming slaves of Athens. 20:25 Since Athenian Hegemony 20:25 the ruler was on sight 20:25 athenians slaughtered melians 20:25 <Daan>Also, the Spartan coalition army was too big. 20:25 and corcyrians 20:26 <Daan>The athenians were much weaker and supply was difficyult. 20:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess most subdued cities from Athens did not want to pay tributes and thought Spartans would not take taxes or that kind - just in military times 20:26 true 20:26 <Daan>It would have been better to march with a smaller better trained army with longer supply. 20:26 also true 20:27 <Daan>Archidamus had the strange tactic to wait at the Athenian border in the hope to remain at peace. 20:27 athenians were depended upon commerce 20:27 <Daan>Of course, Athens didn't want that. 20:27 and archidamus presence 20:27 weakened any commercial actions 20:27 <Daan>Well, they could have a smaller state and be free like the other Greeks. But then they could have lost independence to a new power. 20:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos just was outside the walls and the ships still could come to Piraeus the port to enable trade 20:28 <Daan>Yes, trade was still possible. 20:28 <Daan>In Holland we could also trade despite of wars. 20:28 <Daan>The only thing you need for trade is the sea and the river valleys, but Athens was not at the mouth of a river. 20:29 <Daan>Do either of you want to dicuss a theme regarding the text? 20:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens had its own port to get food and trade done 20:29 <Daan>discuss 20:29 <Daan>Yes. 20:30 yes

military leaders: Archidamos + Pericles
20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well we could go back to the military leaders again ? 20:30 yes 20:30 <Daan>Yes. 20:30 <Daan>What would you want to say about them? 20:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>both were "friends" before 20:30 different personalities 20:30 <Daan>Yes, that is true. 20:31 <Daan>They were still friends i think. 20:31 <Daan>It is a difficulty of war. 20:31 Pericles is rather a politician 20:31 <Daan>He surely is. 20:31 Archidamus is a military ruler 20:31 <Daan>Archidamus has more principles. But it doesn't make him a strong leader. 20:32 depended from real political rulers 20:32 Efors 20:32 <Daan>Oh, okay. 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Archidamos - well he is one of the 2 kings leading to war and also he slowed down the battle 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so if that is not being strong ? 20:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>against the ephors he still had his will 20:32 <Daan>He had a god strategy to take out the belongings of the largest group of Athenians. 20:33 <Daan>Pericles could hardly hold his population. 20:33 <Daan>Psychological warfare. 20:33 <Daan>But it only works at the start of a war. 20:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: he could hinder his people to make a battle, despite seeing lands destroyed - so he is also powerful 20:33 <Daan>Yes, i now know again what i wanted to discuss. 20:34 <Daan>Thucydides says about war that the young Greeks were enthusiastic, but didn't know yet what war was. 20:34 <Daan>War wears down a population especially when your loved ones are killed and your belongings destroyed. 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup, but the young ones are probably deluded by the strong epics/tales ? 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the raw models 20:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the values of the socities back then 20:35 <Daan>I think it has to do with boredom. 20:36 <Daan>War is exiting at start. The boring life is gone and a new daring life begins. 20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well weren't the (olympic) games e.g. made also for this reason to have something against boredom ? 20:36 <Daan>But it is only fun when you are not hurt yet. 20:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true 20:36 <Daan>A war is much more exciting. 20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well because you can kill people ? 20:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>normally you get punished for that 20:37 <Daan>You can defeat a whole state and everybody is joined to defeat them. It isn't like all people just minding their own personal affairs and trying to enjoy themselves in leisure times as good as possible. The whole society changes. 20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well it is more risky definitive 20:38 <Daan>For some psychopaths, destruction and killing can be something to look forward to. 20:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore more adrenaline pushing 20:38 <Daan>Yes. 20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but in the end a battle or war is a team fighting against another 20:39 <Daan>But, i am glad there is no major war now at the moment. 20:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and 1 person from that team fights one or more from the other 20:40 <Daan>Yes, but it is not on one occasion like in the olympic Games. It is far larger and enduring. 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is measuring your strength with other unknown strength 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, I see the general enthusiasm, more focused on one all uniting goal 20:40 - konstantinos__ joined 20:40 <Daan>Strangely enough, people nearly always think that they are on the winning side. 20:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi konstantinos__ 20:40 <konstantinos__>So you consider Pericles to be a psycopath? 20:40 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos 20:40 <Daan>No 20:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>depends - I could consider all people psychopaths when not knowing much of them :-) 20:41 <Daan>I was taling about people who actually enjoy to kill themselves. 20:41 <Daan>Pericles was a state leader. 20:41 <Daan>He wanted to take responsibility for his state. 20:41 <konstantinos__>a crude ruler 20:41 <Daan>He seems like a cool pragmatic ruler. 20:41 <konstantinos__>actually 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well most of the things about Pericles are also idealized perhaps since he was famous back then ? 20:42 <Daan>Very different fromArchidamus, who has a heart for the people. 20:42 <konstantinos__>Of course 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows if he survived the plaque who knows 20:42 <Daan>I think most politicians are like Pericles. 20:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Arhidamus: heart for the people means ? 20:42 <konstantinos__>pericles was manipulating democracy I think 20:42 <Daan>He stopped at the border in the hope it would bring peace. 20:43 <Daan>But it was something stupid, because it was impossible. But still he tried it. 20:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when seeing with actual political factions: Pericles wa smore moderate coalition ? 20:44 <Daan>I think Pericles wanted to keep Athens strong. 20:44 <Daan>He fought for Athens. 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Archidamos did it also because he knew the Peloponnese were not yet ready for war (besides having the land as worth value against the Athenians) 20:44 <Daan>The honour of Athens. 20:44 - konstantinos___ joined 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles: yes keeping his Polis strong 20:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>konstantinos you have connection probs ? 20:44 <Daan>Yes, strange is that he became the leader of the Spartan army, while he was a moderate voice in the Spartan state. 20:45 <konstantinos___>yes 20:45 <Daan>Hi Konstantinos. You keep coming :) 20:45 <konstantinos___>lol 20:45 <konstantinos___>i cant help it 20:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 20:45 <Daan>:) 20:45 <konstantinos___>sorry 20:45 <Daan>No, you may come 3 times more, no problem with that. 20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but tell us before you leave haha 20:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so back to the topic ? 20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was an aristocrat and Pericles a carreer politician? 20:46 <Daan>Does that make the difference? 20:46 <Daan>Archidamos was born to be king, i mean. 20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles also came from an old high respected family 20:47 <Daan>Well, a lot of kings are truly bad, but only little carreer politicans would be like Archidamos. 20:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>some also told his shape of face looked like an old tyrant (and snobish) - konstantinos you can tell something to that ? 20:47 <Daan>Yes, but there could have been other people in his position, while archidamos was born to be king. 20:48 <konstantinos___>for pericles you mean? 20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 20:48 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks a pic for Pericles 20:48 <konstantinos___>it is almost sure 20:48 <konstantinos___>according to Plutarchos 20:48 <konstantinos___>that he was a perfectionist 20:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the pics at Wikipedia look good 20:48 <konstantinos___>as it concerned hia 20:48 <konstantinos___>appearance 20:49 <konstantinos___>probably narcissist 20:49 <Daan>I will look as well. 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Pericles 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess the helmet disguises his forefront 20:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere that he resembled an old tyrant 20:49 <konstantinos___>but i think he was using any means to 20:50 <konstantinos___>impress 20:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore also were some suspicions (also because of his family ties) 20:50 <Daan>Konstantinos, yes i think so. 20:51 <Daan>Pericles had made a lot of buildings, wasn't it. 20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so helping the demos ? 20:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or just state buildings ? 20:51 <Daan>I don't know. 20:51 <Daan>I don't see it in the Wikipedia article. 20:51 <konstantinos___>he gave much money 20:51 <konstantinos___>for public buildings 20:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah that I remember he had people around him who distributed money 20:52 <Daan>Okay. 20:52 <konstantinos___>athena had to make an impressions 20:52 <konstantinos___>to the alliance 20:52 <Daan>Yes, of course :) 20:52 <konstantinos___>so every time abassadors 20:52 <konstantinos___>were coming in Athens 20:53 <konstantinos___>were forced to get dressed 20:53 <konstantinos___>with different clothes 20:53 <konstantinos___>and also forced to watch Dionysia 20:53 <Daan>I am going to eat a fruit. So i will respond a bit slower. 20:53 <konstantinos___>under Acropolis etcx etc 20:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or you could say he wanted to keep flourishing the clothing and entertainment industry :-) 20:53 <konstantinos___>lol 20:54 <konstantinos___>thats pov 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good appetite Daan 20:54 <Daan>Thanks 20:54 <konstantinos___>from me too 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we are just making bad words about dead man :-) 20:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they can't defend themselves 20:55 <Daan>He is dead for 2500 years now. He must be happy we are still talking about him. 20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>good point 20:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps he is watching me while I type ? 20:55 <konstantinos___>yeap 20:56 <Daan>He will take revenge while you sleep ;) 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, where were we now before our journey to the dead world 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he can try 20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>characteristics of the two leaders

no multimedia about King Archidamos ?
20:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we have a pic of Archidmos ? 20:56 - konstantinos quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:57 <Daan>Last time we also discussed about them. 20:57 <konstantinos___>not many sources 20:57 <konstantinos___>to justify any clue 20:57 <Daan>That is true. 20:57 <konstantinos___>for pericles 20:57 <konstantinos___>we have 20:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, WP or commons does not have pics about Archidamos :-( 20:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there is one pic for the later Archidamos the 3rd 20:58 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in a min 20:58 <Daan>Perhaps on Google? 20:59 <konstantinos___>you mean real picture? 21:00 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back 21:00 <Daan>Yes, i want a movie of him made with a mobile phone and placed on YouTube. 21:00 <Daan>:) 21:01 <Daan>#me is still here 21:01 * Daan is still here 21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan thy wish is granted 21:01 <Daan>Youpie! 21:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>... if I would be a witch 21:01 <Daan>Than? 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then thy wish is granted 21:02 <Daan>A fariy if better :) 21:02 <Daan>fairy 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but it is interesting Archidamus was a leading figure but not a pic - is this due to Sparta's cultural system ? 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but from Archidamus III there are pics 21:02 - konstantinos__ quited (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 21:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yep, fairy it should have been 21:02 <konstantinos___>well my friends 21:02 <konstantinos___>i have to leave yopu 21:02 <Daan>Oh no, only one Konstantinos left :(

literature about Peloponnesian War
21:03 <konstantinos___>http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft767nb497/ 21:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah why ? 21:03 <Daan>bye Konstantinos 21:03 <konstantinos___>this is a book 21:03 <konstantinos___>very good one 21:03 <konstantinos___>about athenian hegemony and political realism 21:04 <Daan>It sounds pretty good indeed. 21:04 <Daan>Very postmodern, i suppose. 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I wanted to say before you leave: good you were here, since you helped us with not being two persons only and also giving more details as a Greek knowing issues more better 21:04 <konstantinos___>thanks 21:04 <Daan>Yes, i liked it as well with you. 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>will we see you again ? and you agree to make the chat public ? 21:04 <konstantinos___>too many people not good conversation 21:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we will remove non-topic issues 21:05 <Daan>That is true. 21:05 <konstantinos___>and this was a good conversation 21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 21:05 <Daan>We had some chat sessions which were very busy. 21:05 <konstantinos___>thank you 21:05 <konstantinos___>byez 21:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye konstantinos___ 21:05 <Daan>Bye! 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan shoudl we continue ? 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>lets do 21:06 <Daan>Okay. 21:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which topics didn't we cover yet ?

military strategy
21:08 <Daan>Perhaps military strategy. 21:08 <Daan>How would we lead an army in those days. 21:08 <Daan>Suppose you are Sparta or Athens. 21:08 <Daan>There is the problem of supply. 21:09 <Daan>Of allies. 21:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the ressources form that time ? 21:09 <Daan>Where will you move your army? 21:09 <Daan>Yes. 21:09 <Daan>A lot in the text of today is about where armies and fleets move to and what actions they take and problems that occur.

22:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so last question: how would we lead an army in those days ? 22:05 <Daan>Yes. 22:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>supply: either take with you (or send after the troops) or get from enemy country 22:06 <Daan>Perhaps we have too limited information to answer that question. 22:06 <Daan>The last thing is tricky. 22:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, when they destroy it 22:06 <Daan>Athens could put all supply behind the walls. 22:06 <Daan>And tan you have to leave soon. 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, if nobody attacks Sparta outside they don't have probs with supply - though they have other probs to not stay long there 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helot uprising, allies wanting to farm their land, see their families 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>winter coming 22:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>demotivation to stare at walls 22:08 <Daan>Superb training of the Spartan army would easily defeat the Helots. 22:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the Spartans are from just seeing numberes outnumbered pretty bad 22:08 <Daan>The last thing could be tricky indeed, especially when a famine occurs. 22:09 <Daan>Britain defeated 40.000 Bengals in the battle of Plassey with only 1800 men. 22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos told the war against AThens is decided by money 22:09 <Daan>And less than hundred of them were actually British. 22:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have a good fighting position ? 22:09 <Daan>Yes, money to buy supplies, i suppose. 22:09 <Daan>Lets see. 22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because Athens needs food to get into the city by the sea port 22:10 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plassey 22:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also paying the soldiers 22:10 <Daan>Food is no problem for Athens. They have a large commercial port. 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if the port gets blocked or destroyed 22:11 <Daan>And they earn enough money, had a large treasury. 22:11 <Daan>Yes, than Athens is done with quickly. 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because I doubt Sparta can hold against them in the naval department 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>also Aigina was a chance to capture at begin of war 22:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which could have an influence on ships passing by to to Piraeus 22:11 <Daan>Aegina has the problem of being an island. 22:12 <Daan>Yes. 22:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the chance passed when Athens then won against the attacking intruders there 22:13 <Daan>Where, in Piraeus? 22:13 <Daan>Later in the war? 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think yes, not yet in book II, 1-25 22:14 <Daan>Ah, okay. 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Brasidas and others had the plan 22:14 <Daan>Brasidas is Spartan? 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if they acted swiftly they even perhaps could have intruded into Piraeus 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and who knows what could be done there 22:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but chance passed 22:15 <Daan>Yes. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, about leading troops: 22:15 <Daan>I don't know the story. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Athens went with 100 ships to the Peloponnese 22:15 <Daan>Yes, piracy. 22:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to Methone and Pheia 22:16 <Daan>Methone was Spartan territory, but they were pro-Spartan other than the Messenians, wasn't it? 22:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they just attacked and when too much opposition came they retreated 22:16 <Daan>Perhaps they didn't want to be attacked and looted. 22:16 <Daan>Yes. 22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Methone: I would say so, otherwise they would have not hold out against them until Brasidas came 22:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least I don't know of anything from Thucydides text 22:17 <Daan>me neither. 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Athens seems like guerilla tactics 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>attack and retreat 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>less lossess hopefully and distract the enemy from Attica 22:18 <Daan>Yes. 22:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>showing them that with thwir ships they are faster and more agile 22:18 <Daan>Make them angry just like what Archidamos did in Attica. 22:18 <Daan>Also, bcause they couldn't do anything else. 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and perhaps even feeding the enemies of Sparta with hope 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>helots, Argos 22:19 <Daan>Otherwise Athens would do nothing. 22:19 <Daan>Yes. 22:19 <Daan>And showing to the Athenian population that everything was going fine. 22:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah doing something for the morale, propaganda 22:20 <Daan>In Macedon, Athens was much stronger. 22:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean with the side switching Perdiccas ? :-) 22:20 <Daan>The Athenian army easily conquered the capital of Macedon. 22:20 <Daan>Yes. 22:20 <Daan>But in the Peloponnese, Athens attacked only small towns. 22:20 <Daan>Probably, because they were to weak. 22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from the Methone and Pheia both are on the west coast - perhaps they just wanted the Peloponnesian army to move the most far away 22:21 <Daan>There is a bottleneck situation. Sparta is too weak at sea and Athens on land. So, they can't defeat eachother. 22:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yup 22:21 <Daan>Yes. 22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps Corinth could do something with their ships, but the time will show that Peloponnesian navy is just too inexperienced 22:22 <Daan>So, that is why the war dragged on for so long. 22:22 <Daan>Yes. 22:22 <Daan>Ever heard of the longest siege in history? 22:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nope, which it is ? 22:22 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Candia 22:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>21 years - not bad 22:23 <Daan>Tukrey versus Venice on Crete. It took 21 years for the Turks to conquer the city. 22:23 <Daan>Yes. 22:23 <Daan>And with artillery. 22:24 <Daan>Siege techniques were pretty advanced in those days. 22:24 <Daan>The turks literally shot there way into the town. 22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 22:24 <Daan>21 years of shooting. 22:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>brutal force 22:24 <Daan>In the time of Sparta and Athens, they used basillicas, i suppose. 22:25 <Daan>Not so good as artillery. 22:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>did they have artillery back then ? 22:25 <Daan>Cannon, i mean. 22:25 <Daan>Yes, bassilica is artillery, i suppose. 22:25 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks 22:26 <Daan>It isn't the right word. 22:27 <Daan>I meant ballista 22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista 22:27 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_engine 22:27 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks 22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I see - fast way to get into the city 22:28 <Daan>Yes. 22:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if only landing would be softer 22:28 <Daan>So, the walls of Athens were very large and thick. 22:29 <Daan>Otherwise, Archidamos could have entered quickly. 22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am just thinking if they could have good parachutes :-) 22:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>flying humans 22:29 <Daan>A ballista can be used for that. 22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I read somewhere someone put chickens with fire burning roped and threw them like this into the city and the animals in panic went everyhwere 22:30 <Daan>Throwing a human high up in the air and than you release your parachute :) 22:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or poisons in waterform which hits the enemy 22:31 <Daan>If there was a plague, the army with the plague would use deceased bodies and trow them into the city. 22:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nice idea :-) but don't tell the families of the body 22:31 <Daan>That is how Black Death entered Europe in 1346. 22:31 <Daan>And in the Middle East. 22:31 <Daan>That is true. 22:32 <Daan>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death 22:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hm another idea to throw fecals into the city to also spread nice bacterias 22:33 <Daan>"It was reportedly first introduced to Europe at the trading city of Caffa in the Crimea in 1347. After a protracted siege, during which the Mongol army under Janibeg was suffering the disease, they catapulted the infected corpses over the city walls to infect the inhabitants. The Genoese traders fled, bringing the plague by ship into Sicily and the south of Europe, whence it spread." 22:33 <Daan>Yes, and yikes! 22:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in kind of military ideas, Humans are just inventive 22:34 <Daan>Yes, very. 22:34 <Daan>Luckily also in non-military ideas. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes

next meeting
22:35 <Daan>I am getting tired. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah ok - so we stop then 22:35 <Daan>Shall we continue next week? 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>of course 22:35 <Daan>Okay. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>next 25 aphorisms 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>time ? 22:35 <Daan>Yep. 22:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we should ask again konstantin how he has time 22:36 <Daan>Best on next saturday. 22:36 <Daan>Yes. 22:36 <Daan>And i have less time in the evening, because i will go out at night. 22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so lets do it then earlier 22:36 <Daan>cya 22:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye