text:
The Web Economy/18

Cost of Gaps
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Diploma course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * There are many gaps between the software and real user experience that requires big picture analysis.
 * Each item of change to a new experience is a cost. Change itself has a cost, such as training and conditioning the users.
 * There is also a collective cost of getting a critical mass of users to like something and use it often enough to support an eco-system.

Cost Of Software

 * A software design is very different from building a bridge. Its price cannot be fixed.
 * It also has its own anti-patterns and require strict scoping control.

Assignment Tasks

 * Research and identify the type of costs needed to use Open Source software.
 * Outline the remedy measures in real costing terms.
 * Suggest a plan to change an organisation from using proprietary software to Open Source software.

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

Links to Student Notes
(Provided by Students - subject to edit ranking by tutor)

Notable Links to Resources
(Provided by Students - subject to edit ranking by tutor)

Sub-Pages
(Done in wikiversity as course material by the students under the guidance of the tutor)

Course Navigation
Next - TCO Pyramid >> The Web Economy/19

title: The Web Economy/18


text:
Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/October 2008

Extension:EasyTimeline
Personally, I've been wanting to be able to do graphing on Wikiversity for some time. With User:Hillgentleman's encouragement, I added a bug request for mw:Extension:EasyTimeline to be enabled, and have been asked to point to the (as yet largely non-existent ) community discussion about this! So, I invite you over to EasyTimeline to add support, questions, or concerns. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 07:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for distraction, but it was already enabled! -- Jtneill - Talk - c 07:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not at all. I believe it has just been installed.  An hour ago, the graph on this page  didn't appear.Hillgentleman|Talk 07:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiScience launched
WikiScience, a project to bring together researchers on wikis and tools for researching wikis, particularly Wikimedia projects, has just been launched. The site itself is here, some initial context (from WikiSym) is here, and some further clarification on its scope etc here (albeit with formatting problems). As this latter link shows, there's been some discussion on the wiki-research mailing list about what it proposes to do that's different from Wikiversity - but it does seem to have momentum, ideas, and tools of its own. Looks like a promising area for collaboration... Cormaggio talk 10:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Why the introduce GPRS, and What diffferent btn Bluetooth and GPRS
Iam ask why the introduce that devices.What the different btn Bluetooth because iam not very familly with those staff. Which one is faster than other I remain Ayasi Ramadhani-Mbeya,Tanzania,East Africa --80.69.8.190 07:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

ImageMap upgrade?
For the MediaWiki-tech-types, I'm having a problem with using ImageMap in a template here: Template:SPP/Participant/Email and as explained at that I link, I think to resolve we need an updated version of the extension on the WV server. What do you think? Should I file a bug report? -- Jtneill - Talk - c 12:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Now this problem seems to be solved by Darklama. --Gbaor 17:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks Gbaor, sorry, should have posted this back here. I'm most appreciative of Darklama's wiki-wizardry assistance and also on some related questions on that template recently from Hillgentleman. Darklama and others, I would like to more about #tag - I could not find much on searching -- Jtneill - Talk - c 01:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Help:Magic words. #tag is used to work around the common problem of not being able to use wiki code inside tags, like template parameters. } translates into normal stuff inside tag with wiki code support --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 01:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Digesting :).... would this help here? Template_talk:Note or is there another fix? -- Jtneill - Talk - c 13:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No it wouldn't help there, tag refers to html/xml like . The problem there is the "=", because of that it thinks everything before it is the parameter name and everything after the parameter value, and since the parameter name is not 1, 1 isn't set. To work around that you need to be explicit by adding 1=, than the next "=" will be seen as part of the parameter value. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 14:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Department of American History
After a period of stagnance, I am restarting the Department of American History. The first course will be a survey of US History that I am teaching. If you are interested in US History and can design more courses, come on down. Geo.plrd 06:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC) --Geo.plrd 06:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Learning to learn a wiki way
Learning to learn a wiki way appears to have become inactive... it seems the project has gained a new nuance. not only "how do you learn best though wikiversity".. but also "how do you learn in a project, if no one is participating"... its just begging questions about leadership and ethical and moral considerations about moving an interesting project forward, without the project author.

as a newcomer, its truly hard to completely understand the wiki way, with experts who 'volunteer' as such. possibly to find themselves much less knowledgeable than many others. 'interested' in contributing then becomes perhaps the most important of all qualifications for any particular 'job'...

so what if all the educators whom started that project are too busy too contribute- do I have expertise because I find the project intriguing?? But despite NOT being an educator, doesn't an interested newcomer need to thoroughly understand that topic? --Jolie 18:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Again, these are excellent questions. I think there's certainly something to be said for the value of the participant over the non-participating "expert".  You raise on question I'm very interested in, however:  what effect do abandoned projects have on participants who find them?  Are they discouraging?  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 03:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you. Myself, I pondered the project for awhile before proceeding.  It is easier to join an active project.  I admit to being a little discouraged.  However, As a newcomer to wikiversity I have alot of enthusiasm and interest in experiences I have not experienced.

 * An abandoned project does not neccessarily need to linger on uncompleted; however I think it is normal for strong alteration. It is not my intent to alter this project but as a scientist in a technical field; I am not familiar with PAR (participatory action research).

 * while a novice may be able to adapt to a new approach given good instruction; he/she still must proceed with an approach that he/she can understand.

 * Forums such as this that still hold references back to this project, offer hope for any uncompleted project. It is possible that an abandoned project might greatly modify the intended vision of that project by a new project leader with a different point of view.

--Jolie 15:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)::

 * Indeed; I do not really see anything wrong with a project changing course if it can be brought to grow again. I think the large number of stagnant projects here is sad, but getting consistent participation can be very difficult.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 18:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Community Review
I have brought two items up for community review. Emesee 02:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that there is currently a vote about should JWSchmidt be unblocked?. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 00:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Lost discussions
--U3006567 20:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not able to re-locate my previous e-portfolio homepage so that I can edit the entries --U3006567 20:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)gladys

Social Contract Course
I am considering creating a course on social contracts. These are an important part of history and philosophy. As the cumulative project, we will be creating a social contract on Google Knol that would be applicable for Wikiversity. Please contact me if you are interested in being a part of this course. Geo.plrd 02:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't even know what social contract is exactly. but I am sure that I am getting a little busy, I don't want to be too busy to do a good job on existing commitments and inquiries. Good luck on your new course.--Jolie 10:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

organizational question
Dear Custodians,

I'm a college educator in Seattle, and new to Wikiversity. I decided recently that I wanted to post content from my on-the-ground classes here, and began doing so this week. Before I get too far, though, I wanted to make sure I was stumbling down the right road, in terms of naming conventions and my general approach.

Here's what I've put up so far:

 * Arntson:English_Composition
 * Arntson:Analytical_Writing
 * Arntson:Freshman_Seminar

My hope ultimately is to create a page that lists all of the courses (eventually there will be 8 or so), where my students can go as a starting point to access these resources. Is that possible?

Thank you, Steven R. Arntson Stevenarntson 19:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you for coming to the colloquium to discuss this! Generally, Wikiversity prefers that all projects are made as open as possible: in other words, if you'd like to make the materials accessible to everyone, you should probably not include "Arntson:" at the beginning of your project names, but rather make them English Composition, Analytical Writing, Freshman Seminar, etc.  It would be ideal if you could work with the Department of English Literature (which includes aspects of Writing) in developing content.  Now, if your only goal for Wikiversity is to create a hub for your students to interact on, and you aren't particularly interested in developing content for everyone here, this may also be okay; in that case, all of your project pages should probably be a subpage of your profile page.  Specifically, you'd want to move your pages (using the "move" tab) to User:Stevenarntson/English Composition, User:Stevenarntson/Analytical Writing, User:Stevenarntson/Freshman Seminar, etc.  Personally, of course, I'd prefer to see you develop content in conjunction with either of the English Departments here right now, but if that's not your goal, you're still welcome to bring your class here to explore education in another fashion.  BTW, there are currently pages in development at Composition and Writing.  You're welcome to restructure or contribute to those pages in whatever way seems preferable to you.

 * BTW, consider using as resources the English Language Department (which hosts the English Language Reference Desk), and the Writing Center. The Writing Center has several writing-related resources, and the Reference Desk is a place where your students (or you, of course), are welcome to ask any questions they might have about the English language—including grammar and punctuation questions, of course.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 20:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you so much for your advice; my understanding is slowly increasing! I think for the moment I'll begin developing subpages on my User page, so I can address specific scheduling concerns for the courses, and then look for ways I can contribute elsewhere, and direct students to resources in the wider Wikiversity. I've appreciated the openness I've encountered here so far. Best, Stevenarntson 16:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Hi Steven, I'd say you don't need to do this in your userspace - there are many groups of pages in Wikiversity which have been worked on for a discrete length of time, by a discrete group of people. You could think of an intuitive 'parent' page title like Seattle English class or College level English writing (or whatever) and make the other pages subpages of this. Or you could create an organiser 'topic' page (eg Topic:Seattle college English, or something), which links to simpler titled pages (such as English Composition. I'd say the main thing is to be explicit about what you're doing on the 'parent'/'organiser' page - ie put a note there saying that these pages are in development, by these people, within a certain framework. That means that people who stumble over them will be able to figure out what's going on. Also, for other people's sake, it'd be helpful if you could say whether you want to invite open collaboration, or whether you'd prefer your group to develop the pages for a certain length of time, and then for them to be openly editable after that. Does this make sense? Cormaggio talk 17:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think for now I'm going to do some development on my user page, especially for parts of the course the vicissitudes of which are the on-ground demands of the schools I'm working through--then I'll see what resources I can link to as I learn the lay of the land a little more. I'll put a clear statement on the main page in terms of what kinds of editing I'd like to encourage. I'm very excited to be doing this; it's the first online application I've seen that really makes sense to me, and seems truly progressive in terms of advancing the cause of free culture. Thanks so much for all your help. Stevenarntson 00:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Review of some recent actions by Emesee
A steward has temporarily removed Emesee's administrator access until the community can review. This was done for a number of troubling actions including a two week page protection of Community Review. Please see the Review of some recent actions by Emesee and comment. There is also a request to remove tools from all accounts he controls while the review is conducted. Also note that the request for CheckUser access has been withdrawn. --mikeu talk 16:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Nominations
There are two nominations that are now open for discussion. Ottava Rima for Full Custodianship and Cormaggio for CheckUser. Please vote and comment. --mikeu talk 02:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

New journal article about Wikiversity
An article has just been published in First Monday, an online, peer-reviewed journal, called "Wikiversity; or education meets the free culture movement: An ethnographic investigation". It's based on experiences of the time-specific course on Composing free and open online educational resources, which ran earlier this year. Congratulations! Cormaggio talk 10:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Image mystery
The image works here:

and other images work in the project boxe.g.,

-- Jtneill - Talk - c 15:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Project box icon displays just fine for me. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 19:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

 * This is weird. I could have sworn it did not render this morning when I looked (using the Opera browswer) but now it looks ok with Firefox.  I'll check again later.  --mikeu talk 21:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

 * The problem seemed to be that at the time that it would display any image that was already used on WV from Commons (elsewhere previouslY), but that it wouldn't display an image that wasn't yet used from commons within the projectbox - as though there was some caching problem. But the image would display on its own (outside of the projectbox). This is still a problem if we now pick a new image from commons, e.g. at the time of posting, this doesn't display (in FF):

-- Jtneill - Talk - c 23:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it looks OK now I've saved, but didn't display on "Show preview". -- Jtneill - Talk - c 23:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This appears to have been a temporary problem. All seems fine with using images now. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 01:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there were some transient issues with the thumbnailing servers. Seems fixed now. – Mike.lifeguard | @meta 02:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea if this has anything to do with the above, but I have noticed I frequently need to use  after editing subpages that are transcluded in another page.  For instance WV:CR.  It seems like I have had to do this more often recently, than in the past.  --mikeu talk 02:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I've noticed that I have to achieve the same thing more often too - usually I do this by editing and previewing the page - then it seems to do the purge (I can't remember the code! :)). -- Jtneill - Talk - c 02:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's unrelated to the thumbnail issue. However, that issue occurs when the job queue can't update the cached page fast enough to serve the new version when you request it (which is a normal failure). – Mike.lifeguard | @meta 04:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How does one use this action purge business? The Jade Knight (d'viser) 04:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Append  to the URL. I'll add a gadget to add a purge tab shortly, if there isn't one already. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 04:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 04:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

How to make a search link internal
How could this link be made internally?  -- Jtneill - Talk - c 03:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Simple searches like Special:Search/Mike can be done internally; complex searches must be external links. You can use  to make it look better. – Mike.lifeguard | @meta 04:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A template could possibly be made to help with this, as well. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 04:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Project Status
I've thrown my thoughts and explanation of this issue down here. Feedback would be appreciated. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 00:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

RSS broken?
I raised this some time back, but still wondering - the rss feed link for this page seems to be outdated: rss feed. Any ideas? -- Jtneill - Talk - c 12:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I sometimes use the rss feed on my cell phone, and it seems to be working ok. But, mostly I use the IRC recent changes channel.  --mikeu talk 17:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

A family wiki
I'm a bit in my own head these days (and otherwise busy), but I've been thinking a lot about making "family wikis" for both sides of my family, to share stories about about what we were like as little children, what deceased family members were like, genealogies, shared photo albums, and so on. I think this would be a wonderful way to use wiki technology, and I would love to see a step-by-step-ish resource set up for this.

I think the best way forward would be to have users set up these wikis, and have some "support staff" here to both answer questions as they come up, but then take those questions and incorporate it into the learning resource. I could be of some assistance (I have a private, "locked down" wiki, so I know at least a few tricks), but I think assistance would be needed from folks like darklama and others who are true code-whizzes.

Anyone interested? I'm going to make this my "everyone's Christmas present" this year, and even if you pay the $$$ for the wiki server, it's still cheap and fun. --SB_Johnny talk 18:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Perhaps it makes the information of users too public. On Wikipedia there were people who tried to hurt others in real life. That would be easier when private information of users become more known. I do like the idea though, but i don't think it is good to show it all to the whole world.--Daanschr 19:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, there are ways of making wikis private: for example, you can set the localsettings file to restrict which usergroups can view pages. --SB_Johnny talk 21:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been playing with my localhost wiki for the past ~6 months, and I can help with setup, configuration, use (user & basic sysadmin stuff) if you like. There's a few wikibooks that might be helpful as well (though last I looked they were in rather bad shape) – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 22:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Than it will be a very good idea!--Daanschr 07:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikis to help families reunite

 * I owned the domain wikifamilies.info awhile ago when a group of people tried to created resources to bring families back together. We got as far as a ballot measure. Lawyers offered free help, but they turned it into something people didn't want to support anymore. The group didn't have millions of $$$ to fund resources to get the raw signatures on the street within the limited time to achieve fully official status. One thing we tried to do is distributed the network of resources. We created a hub for the wiki, blog, and newgroups. All that work, and my children are missing. =( Dzonatas 20:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * That's an entirely different thing. --SB_Johnny talk 21:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Guess if you have a perfect family, that is how you will see it. You started this about being able to share with the family. Dzonatas 16:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

History of Travancore
The Travancore kingdom was established by Marthanda Varma after he vanquished his rivals, the Thampi brothers and their supporters, the Ettuveettil Pillamars. Marthanda Varma was the nephew of the previous ruler of Venad and as per the Marumakkathayam system prevailing then, he assumed himself to the rightful successor to the kingdom. The earlier ruler married a visiting princess from the north of India after he promised her that her sons will inherit the principality of Venad. This assurance of the old ruler was supported by the Ettuveettil Pillamars. The Thampi brothers were the sons of the old ruler. Thus, both Marthanda Varma and the Thampi brothers felt that they were right in claiming the kingdom. --Vishnumane 08:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you mean to write an article for Wikipedia? The Jade Knight (d'viser) 12:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There's an interesting and detailed section on the History of Travancore at wikipedia. --mikeu talk 17:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Respect people
There is an ongoing discussion about a new proposed policy at Respect people. Please review and comment at Wikiversity talk:Respect people. --mikeu talk 15:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a particular question being asked there of whether or not the article should explicitly state "respect consensus". The Jade Knight (d'viser) 23:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Vision/2009
Thuvack had the excellent idea to turn some attention and energy to the Wikiversity vision (and related tasks) for making "Wikiversity 2009". Go and take a look and see what you might be able to help progress, and we can still add ideas. Then we can start closing out for 2009 and setting up for 2010! -- Jtneill - Talk - c 13:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

French Mentoring
I am launching a discussion of the pending French Mentoring project. This is going to be big, so I'd like as much feedback as possible before going "gold". A link to the formative project and mention of some of the ideas behind it may be found here. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 07:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

What should I call the Instructer of a course
ok something little that is bugging me. In the context of a course, could I call the Course Instructor by the title "Professor"

While I know that wikiversity does not promote or confer titles. The term Professer seems intuitive and respectful. If the title "Professor" does not strike the wiki community as a very good idea, could we coin an appopriate title for someone whom is generously taking their time to author a course.--Jolie 11:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Someone should pretty up the template, but I just made Call me for this and similar uses... there are up to 3 parameters. See boxes on below.

 * You just add up to 3 options after the template name (, or just ). --SB_Johnny  talk 11:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * as a matter of identity your certainly are Johnny,SBJ,SB_Johnny. But, as a matter of role; you call yourself a custodian.  this title was concieved to create a sense of authority and respect within the forum without the unneccessary connotations that 'Administrator' carries.  Teachers also have and deserve a sense of authority and respect.  In a similar discussion to the custodian issue, Can we not find a term that gives prospective instructors respect and authority without unneccesary outside connotations?--Jolie 12:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, you could use:

 * --SB_Johnny talk 12:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I would prefer mentor was used as the title in all cases if a title is used at all. Even if custodian is a title, people aren't expected to go around saying "Custodian SB_Johnny" everywhere in reference to SB_Johnny. I suspect using titles would be frowned on. Why are titles important to you? --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 13:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Oh right. If that's what you mean, I don't think you should address me (or any custodian) as "custodian". --SB_Johnny talk 14:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think, We need to coin a new name for this. I think Professor, might not be appropriate, as it may daunt new users who could be interested in starting and mantaining an educational resource (even though they may not have any real-time academic recognition). Guardian has also been associated with Custodians (for some time now). We do need a new Name for this purpose. -- Thuvack | talk 14:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * For my part. I do somewhat apologize for getting fixated over titles.  Perhaps, a lack of titles in wikiversity appeals to some people whom prefer to see this forum as a meeting of equals?  I am also quite new to wikiversity and trying to understand the culture.

 * At any rate, I would not name a person by a role, unless they are acting in that role. Thus SB_Johnny would be SB_Johnny (or some shortened form if it seemed agreeable to him)UNLESS he was performing some duty as a custodian and I needed to talk to him regarding something he was doing.  It is also a somewhat irrelevant; I intend to be civil and part of that would be to refer to a user in a way that appeals to them.  A persons user name is by definition an appealing name (since it was chosen by the user). In the only course I am taking, the instructor prefers to go by his username and that is fine.

 * Please do not read an argumentative or trollish tone into this entry as it was entirely pursued on philosophical grounds. Mentor is an interesting title and one that I have seen other places in wikiversity. I am not sure what it means entirely but it does sound like a title of respect and gratitude (which I would have for anyone who freely gave time to help me learn).--Jolie 14:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Its an interesting dilemma. I personally think that titles should be eschewed unless someone is actually a Professor. Geo.plrd 15:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think we need to distinguish between the various, often-overlapping and simultaneous roles that we all play at various times (ie learner, helper, custodian), and how individual courses themselves are managed with respect to titles. I personally think this latter is up to the course participants - though I wouldn't like there to be a situation where someone demands to be called "professor" on the basis of 'leading' a course, whether or not they claim they are one in real life (in fact, I think this should be explicitly disallowed). I'd say we should default to something pretty neutral for people who are actually designing/running a course - like "facilitator", or perhaps "tutor". Titles are often problematic, and they shouldn't get in the way of a participative cohort - IMHO. Cormaggio talk 17:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think Who are Wikiversity participants? attempts to distinguish between the various roles that participants play. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 19:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Really, the most natural title I can think of is simply Instructor. It is a) straightforward, b) not pretentious, c) natural-sounding.  Mentor strikes me as somewhat more intimate than what is intended here, I think.  But "Instructor" would work well, I think.  Facilitator might work, too.  In fact, a variety of terms might work.  Perhaps one must choose as the situation seems appropriate?  Terms that will be used to describe different contexts within the School of History and Department of French are: Instructor, Facilitator, Mentor, and Liaison.  But, again, these represent rôles.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 18:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Why not consider coining something Wikiversity specific? A "wiklar" (wiki-scholar) from way back might be appropriate. Then, we can prepend terms as appropriate. The "head-wiklar" for course X. Or a "student-wiklar" for course X, etc... --HappyCamper 23:21, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

 * You're welcome to call yourself a "wiklar", "wiklain", "wikerary", or "wikistrate", but I'm afraid I'll have to sit out on this one. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 03:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I will agree with Jade on "instructor". I was actually planning on proposing this, even before I read Jade's suggestion.  I don't have a degree in education, but have (and am currently) teaching computer classes in the "real world", and the term "instructor" is what I use there, although students are also free to use my first name, which most prefer.  For those who forget my name or prefer more formality, "instructor" works fine.  I would suggest the same system here, where students can call you by your screen name, or, if they prefer, can call you "instuctor".  This term may be used more often when discussing the instuctor with somebody else: "Let's see what the instructor thinks about that question". StuRat 17:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur. My belief is that when someone is actually teaching a course, they should be referred to as "instructor" or their screen name. Individuals who hold Professorships or doctorates should always be referred to by their title, Professor or Doctor, respectively. Geo.plrd 18:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the above comments - and they're all absolutely fair - but I will simply reiterate that titles are problematic. It might not always be appropriate, or desirable, to expect people to call you "instructor" or "teacher", when, for example, a model of peer learning is preferred. So, it really depends on the type of course/project/resource, since it's always worth bearing in mind how particular structures and expectations affect the type of learning on offer. Cormaggio talk 10:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I do agree with Cormaggio here. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 10:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Cormaggio, I only support the use of instructor when someone is actually teaching a course. Otherwise, you should be called by your preferred name. There are many people who consider it an insult when people do not refer to them by their proper title (Professor/Doctor/Reverend). Geo.plrd 02:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we also need to distinguish between the use of titles at bricks n mortar institutions vs. here. Just because someone has a title there, it does not imply that they are a "Wikiversity Professor" and the use of such titles here could give a misleading impression that wikiversity endorses the use of them.  We have talked in the past about the problems associated with verifying credentials.  But it also changes the whole dynamic of interactions on wiki.  There is a lot of leeway for someone to conduct a course here, either just here or as a complement to an IRL class, but we need to balance that with the desirability to stay open about participation in learning projects.  In some case we encourage an instructor to "own" a course.  IMHO, this should be done for only a limited time (say a semester, or maybe an academic year) and then the course reverts to being a learning project that "anyone can edit" - or teach.  But defining strict roles for user participation in pages will be problematic, esp. as our community grows and we start to see larger numbers of participants who are interested in a particular topic.  Forking can prevent disagreements about content, but it can also limit the collaborative editing which can strengthen the quality of the project and expand the breadth of the coverage.  --mikeu talk 12:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)  Professor of Psychoceramics

 * I find that I also agree with Mikeu, here. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 19:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Reflections, policies, and pillars
The last two months or so have been a very difficult period for Wikiversity, involving a block on Moulton, and then on JWSchmidt - and a number of people leaving Wikiversity, or taking wikibreaks. I've been reflecting on John's block (as well as Moulton's), and trying to think about what we can do to ensure that we don't make the same kinds of mistakes again, or go through the same community trauma as many of us have experienced in this time (for a variety of reasons). One of the main things this extended episode has sharpened in my mind is that we don't have sufficiently robust policies to manage the conflicts that have arisen, or their fallouts - and so I would like to focus on the question of what policies we need in order to maintain both the civility and diversity which have made Wikiversity such a great place to work for the last two years. I propose we need to have a number of "pillars" (in the same way as Wikipedia does), which will clearly define what Wikiversity is and how it works, and which will allow for further developments in our particular domain of education. I would propose Civility and Scholarly ethics as two pillars that would work in tandem - the first of which exists (and backed up by Respect people), the second of which, with a bit of work, I could see as our equivalent to Wikipedia's NPOV. They're two policies that I'd like to develop in tandem as absolute fundamentals of this community. But what about others? What other policies (whether existing or not) do you think would be useful "pillars" for Wikiversity? And, just as importantly, what policies do you think we need to create or improve in light of the recent events? Perhaps we need to revisit our blocking policy? What are your thoughts and feelings? Cormaggio talk 14:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I feel your statement above could have been said a bit nicer, which would be more civil. I try to stay neutral in the matters that have been at issue with active members, and I do not take part in the blame game as you have so done here. What I see written above, Cormaggio, is no better than what JWSchmidt and Moulton have done. You may not do it in the same style or play the same games, but the effect is the same. I ask you to reconsider your approach. Let it end. If there are policies to be created, they are to be built on sound reasons and not by whim reactions to an experience. People want to know what the problem is with Wikipedia; don't repeat that problem here at Wikiversity. Dzonatas 17:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid I don't see anything uncivil in the least. Perhaps you can clarify what Cormaggio has said which you find disagreeable? – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 18:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Sure Mike, what if somebody wanted to make you the reason why a policy exists. Have you no empathy to understand this? There was a bit of a 'move on' needed and thought at least that was understood from out of these situation, and there is obviously some, as shown above, who just can't do it and maybe just don't understand how the fullness of being civil. What Cormaggio posted is one reason why I have less hope here. Dzonatas 20:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Sure, I can understand that reaction; I simply think it's the wrong conclusion to draw. Regardless of recent events, some discussion of these matters is warranted, in my mind, and I look forward to efforts to clarify the issues Cormaggio has brought up, whatever the reason for doing so. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 21:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Frankly, I find that your pointing this out only exacerbates the issue when it is clear (to me) that Cormaggio meant nothing hostile or incivil. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Dzonatas, if anything, my post above is based more on self-criticism, than it is on criticism of anyone else's activity. I recognise that my reactions to what I saw as problematic were themselves problematic in some ways. I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from here. Cormaggio talk 22:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * You opener immediately mentions two users besides yourself, and you continue to mention difficulty an trauma, then you express the need for policy based on such experience. I don't find your self-criticism there. Dzonatas 17:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Ok, I meant that in the context of my reflections at User:Cormaggio/Block on JWSchmidt, which I linked to above; and my advocating that "we don't make the same kinds of mistakes again", in which I very much include myself. When I mention "trauma", I include the fact that others have been traumatised by my own actions, including JWSchmidt. What I'm trying to advocate here is for us to take a long hard look at this whole episode in order to learn from it - individually, and as a community. Cormaggio talk 13:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Ok. Please, take a step towards repair and retract or strikeout your earlier statement above. I further would appreciate your participation in a more coherent organization (i.e. ) under Wikimedia Ethics to accomplish such learning, as you just stated above, instead of the many forks of similar issues (i.e 'case studies') that occurred in the main namespace and in the Wikiversity: namespace. Dzonatas 18:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Scholarly Ethics needs a lot of work before it's ready to become a Wikiversity pillar. I do think Civility is a very important policy, though.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree Scholarly ethics needs work, but I like the idea of it as our equivalent to NPOV - a means by which we can all occupy the same "space", and keep that space productive and educational, even if we deeply disagree. (Hence the link with civility.) Cormaggio talk 22:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the collaborative ethic project that exists is a great thing and hopefully will help with these kinds of isssues. So far, I've not endured any uncivil communications with anybody. It's been great. I've got an enormous amount of respect for the people created many educational resources with WV. If there's any lack, there isn't quite enought people on there and clearly this community is trying to reach out and bring people on board. I'm not sure I understand why people are upset and I think that people that break ethical rules must be dealt with in a transparent way consistent with the ethics policy. As for Wikipedia, if we could be that successful, it would be a great success. --Jolie 17:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * The problem in the case of John is that he was in the centre of Wikiversity, being one of the two founders. My suggestion is that when new users are in conflict with each other, only one or two of the active group will be involved to mediate and all others will stay away from the conflict. Also, conflicts could be handled at a special conflict page and not in the Colloquium. I do think major conflicts can arise again, but we shouldn't let the whole active community get involved with a conflict started by the arrival of a new user. In the long run, conflicts can't be avoided, they are just like economical crises, you never know where the pain will start ;-)--Daanschr 19:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I can't see how restricting to one or two 'active group mediators' would help resolve a conflict - or how it relates to recent experiences. Cormaggio talk 22:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * After watching this recent period (characterised by blocking of two contributors and wiki-breaks/departures by others), I'm thinking that I'd like to see stronger, more transparent "case building" before future undertaking of unilateral action, and for blocking actions like this to proceed more clearly along a progression of warnings, minor penalty, and major penalties if and as warranted. In both cases, there appeared to be some "suddeness" and as a result I'm not entirely clear that the administrator actions are supported by a cogent presentation of evidence about violation of policy and community consensus around appropriate action that can be pointed to. I'm not sure how other wikis work - but perhaps a discussion of how the process might have been different handled on different projects could be of interest/value. In the absence of a case with community consensus which has been acted on (which is sometimes necessary), then the case should still subsequently be brought to light for community review and consensus - which would decide to uphold or overturn the original actions. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 22:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * There was indeed a "build up", but Wikiversity has no clear "punishment" procedure involving a progressive method. And there's the fact that JWSchmidt and Moulton to this day vehemently deny being particularly disruptive or incivil.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 23:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think Community Review is an attempt to move in the right direction of encouraging more transparency and community input before actions are taken. I think this is probably going to be a case of figuring things out as one goes, one step at a time. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 23:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I would agree that it wasn't just "pillar" policies, but process that was lacking. Having a specific process for disputes helps keep it a little calmer and less personal, and can also avoid the "suddenness" problem.  The community probably needs to be clear regarding principles first, but getting those figured does not finish the job.  Editors will need to know how to implement the principles: which steps to take (and in which order).

 * I'm not advocating a hard-and-fast bureaucracy, as those on WP do when they want to reject dealing with a problem just because the complainant missed a step (if there's good reason to believe a dispute resolution step is unlikely to produce results, it probably should be skipped). This is about ensuring editors know what they should be doing when they have a dispute, in order to encourage productive behavior and discourage lashing out in counter-productive ways. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 23:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Some good points there. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 00:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I withdraw from this discussion and try to focus on more productive pursuits. Hopefully you guys will keep Wikiversity together. I might wake up one morning and find out that i am the only one left here :-)--Daanschr 07:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Well I'll be here Daanschr. I think I most agree with him. There's almost too much too learn and do here than to focus on conflict that has broke out between other participants in other forums/Discussions. I have read and sought to understand the ethics policy and will try to ensure civility in everything I write.  I don't honestly understand all the controversy that has occurred.  this is page after page about it.  I'm not sure I need to explore it further. Just let me know if you are offended by anything I write or do, and I will sincerely attempt to understand and resolve it.  --Jolie 13:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I can't imagine that anyone would be offended by you.--Daanschr 15:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I used to think about Cormaggio from my interactions with him, but there are clearly things beyond my imagining. The Jade Knight (d'viser)

 * It's a pity that remarks are to stay on a wiki and that people can't communicate immediately after things have been said.--Daanschr 17:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Editing ethics (A new project?)
Much of this content will now be placed in the forum Wikimedia Ethics specifically, the topic Topic:Editing_disagreements

for value as a reference I wanted to put forth a simpler model of ethics of 4 points.

1) Don't dominate in your writing. 2) Write to Everyone (no ONE person). exception encouragement and consensus. 3) Don't take anything Personal. 4) Understand and abide by the ethics policy

we also need to discuss appropriate behavior when you disagree with a post... I see 8 options what might be said to be --Jolie 19:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Defer to the author
 * 2) Share your thoughts with him on the talk page
 * 3) Compromise by creating comprimised text on the talk page
 * 4) Convise the author by citing sources and explaining your researches
 * 5) Rewrite the material on the talk page, hoping to influence or replace the author's thoughts
 * 6) New Forum, create altered material on a new forum
 * 7) Edit, altering the project page
 * 8) Replace, by destroying the author's material
 * I read all of above, and it has a lot of thought. There are three areas I found on Wikiversity for ethics as suggestions for possible move. First has much into philosophy of general psychology, second is research based, and third is immediate to this environment:

 * 1) Topic:Ethics
 * 2) Research methods and professional ethics
 * 3) Wikimedia Ethics
 * Dzonatas 16:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

 * My approach is not pychological, or philosophical. It is not strictly acedemic either.  It is practical, I want to concentrate on learning without upsetting people. So a simple practical approach seems to fit best in Wikimedia Ethics--Jolie 19:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Would there be people interested in defining under what circumstances each of these major actions were warranted? This seems a very fundemtental and practical project of applied ethics. Go to the link Editing_Applied_ethics if interested.--Jolie 19:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

sorry, but there's something not exactly right about how things are named. Do I need to get permission to begin a project? is it still more of a topic? Tell me how to organize it,And I will make it look a little nicer. --Jolie 20:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Etiquette might also be worth a read. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 20:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

... and openness
Cormaggio, I am sympathatic to Jtneill. And it is not necessarily policies or things you could do. Just be open about what you do. This is a wiki. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 04:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, of course it's a wiki, and of course we should be open - that was never in doubt in anyone's mind, including those who took action here. But even Jtneill acknowledges that it's "sometimes necessary" to take action without clear consensus. What I'm hoping to do is figure out how to mainly prevent that from happening, and then what to do if you/we face that kind of situation. Personally, at the very least, I would have liked to do much more immediate post-hoc community review - and I would still like to do so, and this thread is already throwing up questions and potential solutions. However, I do think we need to shore up our policies and procedures to some extent (and only insofar as is necessary for our context), and that's what I hope to specifically address in this thread. I honestly don't think it's enough to say "be open". Cormaggio talk 08:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Community Ban of Moulton
I've proposed a community block of Moulton here. While Moulton is already blocked indefinitely, I feel that it is important that he see a community vote on the matter. So please come over and vote. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 22:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Realizing that there is already one vote up at that page, I have withdrawn my request until the other vote is resolved. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 08:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Jade Knight
I wish to no longer respond to User:Jade Knight due to his (or her) discourse towards me on Nominations_for_checkuser/Cormaggio and others here on Wikiveristy. I do not endorse Jade's statements or viewpoints in any way. Dzonatas 05:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate this disclosure. For what it's worth, I'm male.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 08:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * All appreciation aside, shouldn't this be on JK's talk page rather then here? --SB_Johnny talk 12:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Good question! Something that may be of interest, your question made me reflect upon the history of this colloquium page and other matters that have been brought here. To follow up on your question, I did a little research for it to see if those that initiated sections here, about a user, did try to attempt to communication, with that user on their talk page, before they brought it here. Perhaps some didn't because, like me, they felt that any further direct communication is hopeless with that user. Dzonatas 17:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiversity for Schools
Just thought I'd point out this WMF breakthrough in education: 2008-09 Wikipedia for schools goes online. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiversity as a kindergarten project
I wish to start the "wikiversity as a kindergarten" project. This project is dedicated to comparing the communication between participants of Wikiversity with the communication between little children in a kindergarten. My presumption is that the average 5 year old acts more mature than the average Wikiversity participant, but that has to be proven yet.--Daanschr 06:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How do you propose to conduct this study? I am, in particular, interested in what objective, quantitative criteria you will use to determine "maturity".  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 08:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I will ask Moulton on email what kind of criteria he thinks are to determine maturity ;-)--Daanschr 10:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we have cookies for snack time please? --SB_Johnny talk 09:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I will give you virtual invisible cookies.--Daanschr 10:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

 * They could be visible? - help yourself. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 12:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I wanted chocolate! (waah!) There's a bug in my juice too. --SB_Johnny talk 12:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't foget to log the bug at Bug Clock! --mikeu talk 21:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well the proper response is that if this is kindergarten, we have far too much too learn than to be squabbling.--Jolie 19:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. But, making jokes is also better than squabbling.--Daanschr 09:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I need juice!!!! And a blankie. Geo.plrd 23:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Messages
Hi!.. I just had a message from someone and read it and then I wanted to see it again, but couldnt find a way to reach there..Can any one help me please?? Thanks!--unknown001 17:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You'll find the message on your talk page, which you can reach at any time by clicking "my talk" in the upper left-hand corner of the screen. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 21:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Campus Radio
Wikiversity's broadcasting project Wiki Campus Radio is planning a Halloween playlist currently.

The input of anyone on Wikiversity would be appreciated here: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki_Campus_Radio/Active_audio_stream --ShakespeareFan00 23:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This is to discuss a new format
Tushant posted this interesting idea to my talk page and I thought it worthy of discussion here: I request you to open up a page format similar to 'School' in functioning, whose use would be similar to 'Reading group' but taking it to a higher level as people may discuss a large number of books from a specific topic, eg.-'?????:Classical Texts','?????:Math Olympiads','?????:Books on Sherlock Holmes',etc. I expect a page with whatever name suits it [Library, Academy, or Book Club] from you considering you a custodian of World's largest online Center for Learning.Tushant 12:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC) -- Jtneill - Talk - c 14:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would support the addition of a "Group:" namespace designed to support discussion groups. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 20:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would support the addition of a "Group:" namespace as well. Maybe we could also merge Schools and Topics into "Group:" as well? --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 00:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't agree to getting rid of the others; they're useful. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 04:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That is exactly the purpose of the namespace "topic", i.e. organisation and community space on a topic. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 02:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think we should definitely reconsider the namespaces... School and Portal certainly seem to overlap, as does Topic and the main namespace. Simplifying things would make it a lot easier for new contributors to find their way around. I've been here for over 2 years and I'm still not at all clear on what they're supposed to be used for. --SB_Johnny talk 13:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * If we use the analogy with portals and wikiprojects in wikipedia, topics are oriented towards contributors and portals are oriented towards readers - but these two group also overlap in wikiversity. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 14:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree that readers and contributors overlap, that is why there is a need to simplify the namespaces. Also I think its worth considering what group of users create and maintain pages in the school, topic and portal namespaces. I would say the same group is responsible for all 3 namespaces. I think the confusion and unclear purposes of each namespaces causes people to give them arbitrary uses. I think its also worth considering that a namespace can be useful to and oriented towards both readers and contributors. Why can't we have one namespace such as "Group:" that is useful to readers and potential contributors in finding pages, and useful to contributors in organizing content? If the concern is having a lot of red links which discourage readers, what about readers who could become contributors if they knew that information was wanted on a subject? What about giving people a choice rather than making assumptions for them? A gadget for instance could be created to filter out such links from the Group namespace and to remove the link while keeping the text that was used as a link from other namespaces. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 15:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * A problem is that the term "group" suffers from as least as much ambiguity as topic: and school:. Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 15:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * If there is only a single namespace which has many purposes, does the ambiguity really matter? At the very least confusion of which namespace to use would diminish with only one namespace present. Ambiguity could serve a useful purpose, and encourage imagination uses, which could improve how Wikiversity organizes things, but I don't think ambiguity helps when you have 3 ambiguous and overlapping namespaces. --dark[[Image:Yin yang.svg|12px]]lama 15:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think Wikiversity, unlike other wikis, needs to be managed under a variety of namespaces, all with a distinct feature of Collaborator-Student Interaction, Administration, etc.--Tushant 18:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for Closure of Beta Wikiversity
The discussion has finally closed with a decision of No consensus. See Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Beta_Wikiversity for details. --mikeu talk 16:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikiversity on mobile phones
Not sure whether this is already familiar, but thanks to the Sevenval AG a mobile phone version of Wikiversity is available online: http://en.wikiversity.7val.com/ --Melancholie 17:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

 * That is very interesting. I would, however, caution people to think carefully before logging in to wikiversity using this.  It is possible for the intermediate site to log passwords.  This is also true of most other mobile phone browsers, for instance Opera Mini or carrier specific broswers that are pre-installed on mobile devices.  --mikeu talk 17:58, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

 * See also the archived thread at Reading Wikiversity on a Palm --mikeu talk 18:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You can access WMF wikis on mobile devices directly - no mirror needed. The skins still need work, so please report problems you encounter. – Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 18:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you elaborate on that? What are the skins that you are referring to?  I use Opera Mini on my phone, so I will use it as an example.  The way that these browsers work is that the phone does not have the cpu capacity to reformat the pages for the limited screen.  So all traffic goes through a proxy.  See the Opera Mini FAQ info at:  and .  Password are encrypted at most stages of the transmission from the browser on the phone to the final website.  But, you still need to have some degree of trust that the information on the proxy will be handled in a safe manner.  This is a generic concern with mobile phone browsing and not specific to any one software package.  --mikeu talk 18:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

general q
Hi, I'm just popping by from the commons and though I'm an admin at en.wiki I have very little idea of what wikiversity is about. I found a bunch of images to categorize that appeared to be homework problem sets, and it looks as though some professor is organizing a class through his userpage. Various student teams seem to exist also, such as User:Eml4500.f08.team.foskey.ckf, and they draft problem set answers in userspace. Is this what wikiversity is about? I'm rather confused. (Really this is all about whether I should be nominating the images they uploaded for the sake of their problem sets as outside the scope of the commons, which is pretty much equal to the scope of wikimedia generally.) Thanks! 66.31.42.26 03:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Welcome, 66.31.42.26. Wikiversity is about many things.  What do you want to learn? Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 03:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh? I just want to know, are classes run on wikiversity, or is it just a place for developing educational materials? It does not appear that this project in userspace has anything to do with any wikiversity mainspace content. (That is, that they are just using wikiversity as a webhost.) Is this allowed? Note that there are students submitting finished problem sets etc etc, not just people developing educational content. 66.31.42.26 04:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Essentially, my question is, should commons be hosting all this sort of content? (These images are all answers to problem set questions, apparently.) 66.31.42.26 04:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikiversity is about learning in a wiki environment; in particular, Learning by doing. How would you like to participate? Hillgentleman | //\\ |Talk 04:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If these could ever be used by another project aside from Wikiversity, then it seems like Commons might be an appropriate enough location. Others may understand the scope of Commons to a greater extent than myself. Emesee 04:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that I would say that this example is "what wikiversity is about" but, yes, this use of wikiversity is acceptable. For example, see Personal learning environment.  One idea is that the homework of these students could be reused in other ways.  For instance, someone teaching a class on engineering could include these materials as examples to explain concepts in that field.  The images on commons that I am aware of are most certainly within the scope of en-wikiversity, and we encourage uploading to commons so that they may be shared on other projects such as wikiversity in different languages.  If there are specific images that you have concerns about please let us know, and we will take a look at them.  See also commons:Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive_11.  For more information see About or ask here.   --mikeu talk 04:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The introduction on the main page of Wikiversity says: "Wikiversity is a Wikimedia Foundation project devoted to learning resources, learning projects, and research for use in all levels, types, and styles of education from pre-school to university, including professional training and informal learning. We invite teachers, students, and researchers to join us in creating open educational resources and collaborative learning communities." This could imply that the activity of the user you refer to is within the scope of Wikiversity.--Daanschr 13:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with sentiment expressed by several above that these images are within WV's scope. It seems to me that a key question is whether each image, on its own merits, warrants a place on commons. Licensing aside, this would seem to revolve around whether or not each one has reasonable potential/value for re-use in one or more WMF projects (but I don't know commons policy). I can say that libraries of open-licensed subject-related materials for teaching and learning are very much in need now and will be into the future. But they need to be well-categorised - for me, that's often the biggest practical issue with students' contributions to commons. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 03:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Blowmoulton
Found this user during recent changes a few days ago. We should block the account, and checkuser it as well, to see if it is a possible sock of him or not. --Sunstar NW XP 16:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I, personally, wouldn't block without a checkuser. We don't know if it's Moulton.  I would watch its contribution history carefully, though.  The Jade Knight (d'viser) 00:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Religion Cat
I declined a CSD for Category:Religion. Right now, there is Category:Religions. I feel that Religions (plural) refers to specific religions, and Religion (singular) allows discussion about religion in general, but not about specific types. This is my opinion, and I want to see if anyone agrees with me or not. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I was wondering about this... I can see the justification, but am not 100% sure a need for such disambiguation is necessary. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 01:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems that we have two other similar cats that may be just as appropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Since there's nothing in Religion for now, but in theory it might one day be used, I'd suggest a redirect to Religions. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 02:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be more natural to do the reverse, however. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 09:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Think tank
There is a new initiative at Think tank to develop learning projects on current events that people might want to learn about. Please visit and include your ideas or suggest topics that you would like to explore. --mikeu talk 13:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I've started a new page at Earth-impact events as part of the above initiative. I've filled included facts to think about, and added links to news and commentary to discuss.  I'm still trying to sort out how participants will engage in this learning project.  Ideas are most welcome.  I'll be fleshing out some of the background info in the next few days and would appreciate comments and feedback.  The basic ideas are to inform people about asteroids and other objects in the solar system that have the potential of colliding with the Earth and then to analyze the efforts by scientists and the media to inform the public of the risks these objects present.  --mikeu talk 16:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I'll be watching this closely; I'm not particularly interested in the current topics, mostly, but I'm very interested in seeing how the Think Tank goes, and potentially getting involved. The Jade Knight (d'viser) 07:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

 * There is another new Think Tank learning project that has been started at Consensus in a wiki environment and subpages. Please take a look and participate.  --mikeu talk 19:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

New material here. A definition I think that will help. 'empirical consensus' (as opposed to normative). Feel free to comment.--Jolie 18:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Social psychology - lost student
Thanks for the feedback I am still not sure but I should find my way soon

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
The Web Economy/19

TCO Pyramid
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Diploma course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Total Cost of Ownership or TCO is the burning term used by practitioners to judge the real cost of using a software that includes warranty, support, training and hardware.
 * TCO are different from the Operating System level to the Business Application level. Desktop setup displacement cost saves a user only 3,000 unit price as compared to an ERP that costs about 300,000 unit price.
 * Implementation and Customisation as well as maintenance and support are the areas where Open Source is most crucial and attractive for vendors to sell such services.
 * TCO is only relevant if there is ROI (Return of Investment) involved. In the long term the TCO may skewed if there are indirect but important benefits such as a more independent and self reliant workforce.
 * The author (Red1) has created the TCO Pyramid illustrated here to demonstrate the high worth of focusing on the upper layers of services such as Implementation and Maintenance of Business Applications rather than providing for displacing lower layers such as the Operating Systems or Database even. Lower rungs are relatively much lower in TCO compared to the higher ones.
 * Thus having Linux or PostgreSQL may not save as much (or even cost more in terms of TCO) as having ADempiere ERP running on Oracle and Microsoft Server. This is even more compounded if the company is running SAP on Linux and SAP-DB (open source by SAP) as compared to the later scenario.

Assignment Tasks

 * Find out the TCO of using free operating system compared to using free ERP. Based the finding on a simulated live case with actual figures.

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

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title: The Web Economy/19


text:
User:Vanderdecken

User:Vanderdecken on the English Wikipedia - therein lies my home. I have previously only created an account on Commons - this account here is a result of the Unified Login process. If you want to talk to me, I check my English Wikipedia talk page most regularly. Vanderdecken 12:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

title: User:Vanderdecken


text:
The Web Economy/20

TCO Strategy
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Diploma course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Open Source is no longer just confined to lower stack technology such as Operating System and Database. It now includes Business Functions and Intellgence.
 * The ROI on using Open Source ERP is higher than Linux or OpenOffice if the licensing costs of proprietary ERP are exhorbitant such as 100 times higher.
 * However ERP is a complex area and requires specialist subject matter exerptise (SME). That by itself is very high TCO and having the free software does not really anything if there are no one around who knows the part about applying it to a real business operations and environment.
 * The consolation is that implementation costs are an inescapable fact and even higher if carried out by proprietary software vendors.
 * As such as strategy has to look at working out the resource management and long term sustenance of an FOSS ERP endeavour.
 * High number of failures are due to inavailability of resources in the market irrespective of whether FOSS or otherwise is used.
 * There has to be a change of priority such as having a more longer learning period or scoping easier targets in order to achieve success.
 * There are ideas such as sharing the implementation with other similar clients so that the consultant or vendor providing it has more to work on and thus make enough to want to taking up the FOSS ERP project in the first place.

Assignment Tasks

 * What skillsets does ERP require?
 * What significant savings if an organisation uses Open Source ERP instead of proprietary ones?
 * How much are the costs of many ERP implementations in the market?
 * What are their success rate and other constraints in their implementations?
 * How can OS ERP resolve their pains and be comparatively better?
 * What other ideas do your group have as a better strategy than what is stated before?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

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title: The Web Economy/20


text:
User talk:Vanderdecken

 Hello Vanderdecken, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit.
 * Visit a (kind of) random random project.
 * Browse everything on Wikiversity, or visit a portal corresponding to your educational level: pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary, non-formal education.
 * Find out about research activities on Wikiversity.

 * Read an introduction for teachers and find out how to write an educational resource for Wikiversity.
 * Give feedback about your initial observations
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 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! --Vanderdecken 13:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vanderdecken


text:
The Web Economy/21

Branding Philosophy
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Diploma course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Most consumers buy brands. Every product is a brand. They choose brands according to what they can identify and believe in, the brand image and promise.
 * Brands take a long time to build, expect 5 years.
 * Branding can be the most expensive part or value of a product.
 * In cyberspace a brand can be easily displace due to low barrier of entry.

Discussion

 * What is the most expensive brand in the world and why ?
 * How does software companies brand itself before the web? In the web?
 * How does new software fight against established brands?
 * What do you think about Europe branding Open Source?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

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title: The Web Economy/21


text:
The Web Economy/22

Marketshare and Mindshare
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Masters course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Cyberspace is where new startups suddenly take on dominant marketshare with virtually no resistance due to been first movers.
 * However smart competitors could wrestle away the big players share by focusing on certain tactics such as the Attention Economy and local culture.
 * Naming strategy is vital in dotcoms as what is visible are usually the name spaces and not geographical places.
 * Mindshare can overcome marketshare easily as there are no geographical barriers.

Assignment Tasks

 * Discuss the above with popular examples.
 * What are the distinct strategies used to overcome competitors?
 * How can ERP be branded in cyberspace?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

Introduction

 * For a brand to be successful it must have a big share of the market in its competing category.
 * For example the desktop market is under Microsoft and also flavours of Linux. Among Linux there are brands such as Redhat, Suse and Ubuntu.
 * Open source or been free is the fastest way (without paying any marketing fee) to gain mindshare.

Like Julius Caesar

 * “I came, I saw, I conquer”. It was that easy in ancient times when there are not much competition and modernity. So was it with the early days of the web in the mid 1990s.

 * Freeware and the web allow lightning fast adoption of it. When Netscape browser was first available it very quickly occupy about 80% of all surfer base in 1996.

 * For first movers: in the search engine it is Yahoo!; in email it is Hotmail. Been first made the creators multi-millionaires. For Yahoo! today its owners are billionaires.

 * Their secret was simple but not so obvious when they first started. Most of us are followers. When they succeeded only then we say “Ah! Why didn’t I think of it?!”

Now You Know

 * Even though the dotcom bubble burst in the early post Y2K years, many still believe the power of the web in flattening the new market in cyberspace. All you have to do is to anchor to something free.

Too Many Cats

 * Of course you cannot do another email service or a search engine that easily and hope to make billions right away like before. You got to wrestle away the marketshare of E-Bay or Amazon. But how do you do that?

 * There are millions of others having your same idea.

 * Thus Open Sourcing your sourcecode can be a good way to enter the game.

How Google Did It

 * But how did Google took over Yahoo! from behind? And they did is so quickly and without much battle.

 * It was a well studied plan obviously. Knowing that hardisk space is cheap Google launches services that has almost unlimited capacity. They offered 200 megabytes of email account space whereas Yahoo! standard was 4 megabytes!

 * They remove all advertising clutter (remember attention poverty?) from their search engine window. I suspect that is why they are faster (and even suspect further that their mathematical algorithm superiority in their search engine may be a farce just to misled the market).

The Power Of Name

 * But the most important element I believe is in its name. You can say ‘Google for it’, easier than “Yahoo for it”. The Google word has entered our dictionary before Yahoo could!

 * That is why i thought about a good brandname to use when i first created my web presence. I thought about a short 4 letter name as 4 lettered dotcoms are almost dried up. Using my name “Redhuan’ it sounded like ‘Red1’. It is catchy and my friends and me like it.

Cyber-Territory

 * As you clearly are aware, territory or geography in cyberspace is non-existence or in the form of ‘space’ rather than ‘place’ . Thus what is expensive there is not areas but names. URLs are known to sell for millions and all the good generic dictionary names are taken up.

 * Can you think of a good name better than Google? Please email me and no one else!

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title: The Web Economy/22


text:
The Web Economy/23

Collaborative Community
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Masters course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * The Web allows virtual community to form across borders. The smartest person can be in the same room. Much ineffiency of meetings are dispensed with.
 * Forums and trackers in mailing lists can track down activity efficiently saving time and magnify activity that was never possible.
 * Small teams and little steps could overcome large established products.
 * The Long Tail has no overhead in the era of wikinomics.

Assignment Tasks

 * What must a community possess in order to thrive? Compare the example of Nupedia and Wikipedia.
 * How can individuals benefit from joining such a community?
 * How can you become more better off working in a community or outside it?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

Introduction

 * The web has been evolving so fast particularly in social engineering support such as inter-relay chatroom (irc), threaded buletin boards, email feeds and SourceForge tools for globally connected code exchanges, that real software improvement can just happen overnight.Wikipedia having grown out of pure cyberspace has waited to happen and such things are now inevitable.

When There Are No Borders

 * What the web really did is to remove the walls that stand in between all the human creativity and energy that can synergise into many wonderful projects.

Story of Nupedia

 * Wikipedia was an offshoot of Nupedia which was strict and disallow unqualified entries. In the end Nupedia died and Wikipedia exploded into millions of articles and dozens of languages with over a hundred thousand volunteers.

Getting The Smartest Person

 * As the smartest person is not in this room, s/he must be in some other room in another place perhaps thousands of miles away. With web marvelous connectivity and chatroom or forums, that someone can locate the community and barter some ideas and put down into codes, all within minutes rather than weeks.

Magic of SourceForge

 * Perhaps the greatest gift the web has offered is from SourceForge which has free tools such as SVN (sub-version to synchronise every developer’s code into a single repository) and trackers to keep track of bugs and feature requests with automatic sequential ID numberings.

Mob Poltiics

 * It is now quite proven that without centralised control and leaving to the freedom of the masses more good will result from it. This has been given many names such as ‘barefoot community’, ‘Smart Mobs’, ‘Pro-Am’ or professional amateurs, It has now evolved into a new science called ‘Wikinomics’.

The Missing Leader

 * From my experience in the ADempiere project, I felt like a missing leader. Even if I am not there, things go along rigorously. This is because there is no control or restriction for anyone to join.

Like Wikipedia, any vandalism can be reverted with a single click, decisions made in small pockets but openly for all to review, so I am not needed most of the time. Many volunteers help in managing and sharing the burden.

 * The members from all over the globe allow a 24 X 7 existence of the project. Multiple companies of developers could commit codes during their waking hours without needing to have the attendance of other team members. When they sleep, another side wakes up to examine the commits and repair or continue the work.

 * Teams and individuals work on their own paths and so we find some codes been neglected and some been intensively attended to. The nett effect is like a beehive of non-stop activity. Thus even if there is a leader, he will not be able to sleep. In a way, the self managing of it all is good as there is no extra administration that has to be paid to get things done.

Project Of None

 * With zero employee but all volunteers, the project will thus be perpetual and not be constrained by bills to pay and commercial threats or economic downturn that others are suffering now. There were fierce flames and debates but somehow they learnt to work better together. It’s a living miracle.

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Next - Seeking a Niche >> The Web Economy/24

title: The Web Economy/23


text:
The Web Economy/24

{

Seeking A Niche
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Masters course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Most of us cannot be everything to everybody. We must find a niche that is sustainable.
 * Niches are best taken if no one has taken it before. Niches must also be worth our while and passion.
 * Most look for profitable niches but missed the not so seeming ones that has profit through indirect means.

Assignment Tasks

 * What are the market niches of some software brands and products?
 * What can be your niche? What do you based it on?
 * How can you ensure you can sustain in the long term?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

Introduction

 * As taught in the Attention Economy we have limitations of focus. Also, humans do not like to be confused or cluttered in their thinking. They prefer one brand for one need. That is why Coca-Cola is the most memorable brand for only one kind of drink. Not Like Frasier & Neave which has many kinds but can you remember this brand when you want a drink? You too are a brand and a niche. The more you find it and focus the better.

Be Good For Only One Thing

 * This is not a limitation if you are good in one thing. You have to focus to be the best in that field . At least there is a market for good people in your area. If you digress and focus on other areas you won’t be good in your core area for long.

The ERP Dilema

 * ERP solutions try to be everything to everyone . There is pressure from different users wishing for different things from their ERP. It is important to separate the core from the extensions of an ERP. Some specialised area such as garment or steel industry or food processing can be a separate add-on and vertical. It is best to delegate that area to another expert and work in a smart partnership.

Cluster of Experts

 * Open Source ERP gives this special chance to everyone to work together but yet specialised in each own’s field. You can be a tax accountant and work with another technical ERP expert to go after a deal better.

Give and Take

 * You should also assist other experts even though you may not get the deal. You are just opening up your network of goodwill, so when you do get a deal you may need to outsource to them, and vice versa.

What Are You Good At?

 * Usually it is what you have been doing such as documenting, project managing, coding, trouble-shootingr or even selling. Whatever it is you can focus on been the best in your area and work with others in a whole unit to tackle larger ERP prospects. If you are a sales person, you can do alot of prospect qualifying and cold calls to build a sales funnel for the team. If you are a documenter you can help editing better sales brochures and share them out to the whole world. With your name as the author it helps to brand and sell your services back. At least you are opening your chances rather than been and remain a nobody.

Publishing Your Niche

 * I also talked about publishing what you know best to others so its known and your marketable. If you are a coder, your commits are already tracked online and other coders can see you. Some editors will also give credit to you. when they notice your work. You may have a weakness in wiriting or you may just hate to write. But via the web and involvement in such an open source project, the word gets around that you are the best or at least good enough in your area. This is part of the many advantages of working in a FOSS ERP project.

Room To Play

 * Been good but no room or friend to play with won’t make you that good for long. Why many are using the web and FOSS projects is because they get to mingle with other gurus and develop good friends to give them moral support in pursuing their passions within their core expertise. For me it is training and writing and as you can see I am happy and excelling at it.

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Next - Positioning and Aligning >> The Web Economy/25

title: The Web Economy/24


text:
The Web Economy/25

Positioning and Aligning
This is a lesson part of the module The Web Economy out of the Open Source ERP/Executive Masters course conducted by a private university.

Topics

 * Some people, projects or products position themselves ahead before the action just like in chess.
 * Some align themselves to others and use others as leverage or catapult to higher ground.
 * Some position themselves according to culture and context as users pay attention to style and form also as functions are easily copied.
 * Some use timing and gradual buildup as a more certain approach than a big bang one.
 * It all depends on what are your core competency or value that is not replicable by others.
 * Sometimes positioning is all about been honest in the right way.

Assignment Tasks

 * Discuss the above with examples.
 * What is the value or character of communities that are not replicable by others?

Activities

 * Publish your works in an attractive manner in your user page, stating your own views and findings providing links to your sources. Use the talk page here to score marks.
 * Create or edit sub-pages of course materials within wikiversity.
 * Discuss in the forum (link shall be provided) by offering your ideas and answering or comment on others' postings.

Introduction

 * Just like you see in chess where a pawn piece is useless in a certain position but when placed in aother position can become so powerful it means the turning point of the battle for the opponent. Another term people call this is ‘value-adding’ through no further cost but just aligning strategically your resources. This university course is also part of a srategic plan to take on a blue ocean of a market.

Chess At Web Speed

 * As you can see how Amazon has taken over the global book market by storm, or how Wikiepedia beat Britannica, Google over alot of cyberspace and money, you can guess that today’s strategy in the web is undefinable and will bring about changes to the game like never before.

Valufacture

 * This is a term created by Dr. Edward de Bono about value been of, what else?, higher value than manufacture of mere physical products. He also preach simplicity and pure ideas as the cornerstone of creating immense wealth when doing the right things that have not been done before.

Open Source As Position

 * By going open source in the first place is already taking a strategic position. You are putting your contribution up on the mountain where everyone can see it and get to it at lightning speed. This is what has made Linux, Compiere and now ADempiere becoming household names almost overnight while its propagators sit at home and use normal effort. The returns are abnormal and enormous.

Positioning Open Source

 * However, after going open, what is next? Do we sell out? Many do. Since we do not and just wish to sell services around it, how do think of the next best thing.

Aligning With Others

 * Been famous and big can give us clout to position with other players or movers. That is why I am aligning with Asia e-University and other universities with the promise of ADempiere as an IP generating machine, as well as a highly potential professional course for postgrads to take on to enter the business market. I am even promoting to align with SAP where it need not die out but its users maintain SAP at the core but its branch systems talk to ADempiere . This cuts the costs of large organisations IT budgets that cannot afford multiple license fees in an economic downturn. As it is win-win then it can become immediate value adding to the market. If we talk to SAP, its market may shrink but is more protected against other threats as people who loves FOSS will not threaten to choose between SAP or else. SAP can also sell more services as they know ERP better. But this time they can let the lower market go to the lower cost ADempiere consultants.Even though we may be paid less as that, but its alot on a global scale. Asia e University probably run out of lecturers on this course! You may have to quite your present job and join us full time!

Learn From Chess

 * Just like gambit in chess, you can offer something valuable away to get something better back. Also in chess, often the better return is a position of a low pawn but that can attack the field devastatingly. You can think of many such tactics in your present situation and also with ADempiere for the present market.Today SMIs and SMEs need software to be efficient and predict availability and sales of their products.

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title: The Web Economy/25