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Comparison between Roman and Han Empires

The Roman Empire and Han Dynasty were both powerful influential forces in their heyday. This research project compares the economic, social, technological and military situations of the Romans and the Hans.

Han Dynasty
The Han Dynasty (Traditional Chinese: 漢朝) rose to power in East Asia after the fall of the Qin Dynasty in 206 BCE. They pioneered a political system and social structure in China that lasted for almost 2,000 years. They rapidly advanced Chinese technology, and created the cultural and political foundations for much of East Asia. Their influence is so profound that the majority of China's people still refer to themselves as "people of Han" (Traditional Chinese: 漢人), and Chinese history refers to the period of the Hans Dynasty as a golden age.

Roman Empire
The Roman Empire (Latin: Imperium Romanum) controlled the Western Mediterranean. The Roman people made unprecedented advances in science and technology, and organized an economy that was hitherto unprecedented in the Mediterranean. The Romans had different engineering accomplishments, than that of the Han. They laid down a legal code that forms the basis of most western legal codes. They left institutions, technology and infrastructure that would influence successors for centuries to come.

Economics

As with other ancient economies, agriculture was the basis of Roman economy. However, the Romans organized their economy in a way that was hitherto unprecedented in the Mediterranean. For once, agriculture became centered on large plantations called latifundia ., who employed hundreds of slave laborers and producing various crops for urban markets. Crops were produced regionally; vineyards sprung up in Gaul, olive oil was produced in North Africa and Spain, and wheat was imported from Egypt. Although agriculture was important, so was trade: An extensive road network, along with massive amounts of coinage, were issued to facilitate trade. In order to make trade and travel easier, many maps were drawn, specifying distances before cities .Road networks were built to coordinate with trade at sea. and All of these innovations sparked a massive increase in the production of agricultural, mined, and manufactured goods. Evidence of this prosperity was shown in an account of the Han official Gan Ying who stated about the Roman Empire:

This country produces plenty of gold, silver, and precious jewels, luminous jade, bright moon pearls, fighting cocks, rhinoceroses, coral, yellow amber, opaque glass, whitish chalcedony, 8 red cinnabar, green gemstones, drawn gold-threaded and multi-coloured embroideries, woven gold-threaded net,delicate polychrome silks painted with gold, and asbestos cloth.

They also have a fie cloth which some people say is made from the down of ‘water sheep,’ but which is made, in fact, from the cocoons of wild silkworms. They blend all sorts of fragrances, and by boiling the juice, make storax. They have all the precious and rare things that come from the various foreign kingdoms. They make gold and silver coins. Ten silver coins are worth one gold coin.They trade with Anxi (Parthia) and Tianzhu (Northwestern India) by sea. The profit margin is ten to one.

Roman commerce was very frequent during the Pax Romana. The Roman Empire's network of roads made it very easy for traders to travel throughout the territory of the Roman Empire. The presence of the Mediterranean made it easy for sea travel to shuttle goods throughout the Empire. However, this was a fragile network; once the Pax Romana ended, the trade networks began to collapse as merchants could no longer be sure whether their goods would arrive safely.

The end of the Pax Romana, and with it expansion, also resulted in the loss of loot from conquests, farther accelerating the collapse of the economy. Roman political instability was also a factor; in order to finance their projects, different emperors would frequently < change their laws and issue new currency, wreaking havoc on the Empire. The lack of a budgetary system and restraints on issuing currency caused the devaluation of the currency, wreaking havoc on the Roman economy; By the fifth century, the Roman economy had collapsed and large areas were depopulated. .

Following the disintegration of the feudal system during the Warring states period, the Qin and Han dynasties promoted free farmers which owned and worked their land and could be individually taxed. The state invested large amounts into agricultural production in order to expand its revenues. As agriculture shifted from self-sufficient manors to free farmers producing goods that were in demand, landowners began to use contracts and money to strike bargains with laborers and with each other. In order to facilitate trade and promote unity among the people, the Qin dynasty standardized measurements for weights, coins, writing, and even the length of wheels. Coinage was issued in large amounts; however, since China lacked silver, the basic issue were bronze coins along with the rare but more valuable silver coins. These standards were all different in the individual states during the warring states period. This greatly helped trade, which was already flourishing during the warring states period. Farmers and traders using contracts replaced ties of blood as dominant in public and private affairs. A new class of merchants grew as long-distance trade expanded, aided by the new roads and canals built by the Qin dynasty. The Qin state, however, believed trade produced nothing of lasting value and encouraged the production of crops over trade. This policy was reverted after the coming of the Han. .

The network of roads built throughout China enabled trade on a large scale. Also, Chinese victories against the Xiongnu enabled trade to the west. This gave the Chinese an advantage because their goods were in high demand in the Roman cities, while Roman glassware was exported to China. Relative stability at the court(the empire remained within the rule of one family), as well as the laissez-faire policies of the early Han emperors(see rule of Wen and Jing), allowed the Chinese economy to prosper. Taxes on agriculture were reduced from 1/15 of crops during the Qin dynasty to 1/30 of crops; for a 12-year period, they were reduced to nothing at all. Forced labour by peasants for the state was reduced from one month a year to ten days every three years. Chinese innovations in agriculture were also important; the introduction of the cow-driven plow, iron farm tools, water mills, the wheelbarrow and other technologies greatly improved the agriculture of the Han. In order to further improve the crop, the state invested heavily in large irrigation projects in areas such as Shanxi. The surplus of grain made available by these advances made the empire very stable compared to other ancient states; during the rule of the Jin emperor, it was recorded that so much grain and silver was stored in the imperial treasury that: "the ropes used to hang the bags of coins were breaking apart due to the weight, and bags of grain which had been stored for several years were rotting because they had been neglected and not eaten."

Revenue was also to a large extent sustained by state monopolies of salt and iron. However, in the later stages of the Han empire, a major problem arose: the Han landowners' accumulation of land, along with the state's taxes, resulted in a large horde of landless peasants from which costly rebellions occurred. These rebellions had the same effect as Roman civil wars had, as they disrupted the Chinese trade networks and deprived the state of a major source of taxation revenue. This caused the Han economy to retrograde to a partially feudal, local economy, which would lay the seeds for the four centuries of strife that followed the collapse of the Han.

Roman GDP
1)Decimal fractions rounded to the nearest tenth. Cursive numbers not directly given by the authors; they are obtained by multiplying the respective value of GDP per capita by estimated population size.

Italy is considered the richest region, due to tax transfers from the provinces and the concentration of elite income in the heartland; its GDP per capita is estimated at having been around 40% to 66% higher than in the rest of the empire.

Industry
In the following, modern estimates on the respective scope of mining and metallurgy. There have been some rough estimates of Han and the Roman industry based on the metallurgical production of later dynasties and time periods.

The overall Han Dynasty iron production figures are unknown. D. B. Wagner speculates a Han production of 5000t from official state Iron Offices based on pig iron production in the late 19th-early 20th century, but he himself admits this figure is likely inaccurate: "Obviously one cannot lend much credence to this figure..." This estimate is likely inaccurate for several reasons: First because it only estimates production from official Iron Offices of 2AD during when Han state monopolies prohibited private iron production, creating a low estimate in the existence of iron producing facilities. Private production still existed during times when the state monopoly was in place. Furthermore, this state iron monopoly was quickly overturned later. Second, the estimate for the official Iron Offices iron production itself was inaccurate because it was based on low-end iron production estimates of China during the turmoil and economic upheaval of the late 19th-early 20th century. In another work by the author, "The Traditional Chinese Iron Industry and Its Modern Fate" By Donald B. Wagner, he states that the Chinese iron industry had been ruined by the end of the 19th century. Where the Chinese province of Shanxi produced 160,000 tons of iron per year in 1870, it only produced 50,000 tons of iron per year by 1898. Metal production would have further decreased during the Qing Dynasty's collapse and subsequent civil wars in the early 20th century. The estimate of 100 tons per iron producing facility would thus be a low-end estimate during a time when economic and political instability and other factors led to a steep decline in production.

D. B. Wagner speculates the Tonglushan mining and smelting area alone was estimated to have produced between 40,000-120,000 tons of copper in the 6th century BC (unknown timelength? total production during the Zhou bronze age era?). While this mining area was undoubtedly productive, this does not translate into an overall estimate for the total copper production for the region as a whole several centuries later.

The Roman industry produced lead on the scale at the time of the Industrial Revolution, marking "the oldest large-scale hemispheric pollution ever reported". The Roman production of copper, the basis for bronze and brass alloys, remained unsurpassed again until the Industrial Revolution. In 150 AD, the Roman Empire had an estimated stock of 10,000 t silver.
 * At its peak around the mid-2nd century AD, Roman stock is estimated at 10,000 t, five to ten times larger than the combined silver mass of medieval Europe and the Caliphate around 800 AD.

Demography
The Han population is estimated to be around 60 million at around 2AD. While the population size of the Roman empire has been traditionally given as 55-60 million, recent estimates of its demographic peak in the mid-2nd century AD range from 60-70 million ("low count") to over 100 million inhabitants ("high count").

Society and law
The essence of Roman society was relationships governed by laws and courts. Many institutions were set up to settle legal disputes, and Roman law appeared in every town governed by the empire. The influence of Roman law would long outlast the empire. The basis of Roman society, as proclaimed by the laws, was the family, headed by a pater familias, who had power over his dependents. However, Roman women were quite free and had greater control over their wealth and property than preceding states in the Mediterranean. One key difference from the Han was an extensive institution of slavery, in which slave laborers were used in large numbers to produce goods.

Roman society was a relatively hierarchical society. Each social group had well-defined roles. Birth was an important indicator of social position. While the elite could enjoy a relatively wealthy life and could expect to become officials and hold high positions, lower classes could not expect such luxury. In trials, the Roman elite was better privileged; they received preferential treatment from imperial courts. They could not be subject to cruel punishments. For the lower classes, the fastest way to advance socially was the army or trade.

Han society was divided into a number of classes, all played a role within this complex society. The basis of this society were free peasants, who formed the base of the tax revenues of the state and who produced most of the agricultural crop. Governing them were the scholar-officials, educated men who were interpreters of the empire's official ideology, Confucianism. These men also helped link the central government with local society. Merchants were also a class, but they were subject to controls by the state and often forced to partner with the state, who also took monopolies in salt, steel and wine, further restricting merchants. At the bottom of society were convicts, beggars and slaves, who formed a small part of the population. For wealthy families, life was good; they displayed their wealth in lavish meals, and lived in large homes in which women lived in the inner quarters. Poorer farmers and tenant laborers worked on their fields. Women in poorer families did not have such luxury and often worked in the fields with their husbands or acted as entertainers. Silk clothes were abundant and worn by all classes. Music and entertainment were separated from rituals, with the exception of funeral rites which were taken very seriously.

Han society was influenced by the effects of Confucianism and legalism. The legalist thought believed at least in theory that everyone was equal under the emperor. Therefore, punishments for the same crimes were the same in writing, though this was not always carried out. Social mobility was also relatively great, especially in the military. Some Han generals such as Wei Qin and Hui Zhu Bing began their lives as servants' sons. Confucianism also asserted that "A man, even though he may be poor, can by his acts be a gentleman. A rich nobleman, even though he may been born well, can by his acts be called shameful." Both ideologies stressed loyalty to the emperor. This thought had the effect of weakening the nobility and strengthening the emperor. The influence of the nobility was also weaker as the new merchant class asserted its presence and wealth energetically; the Han abolished hereditary positions. In theory, everyone could become an official. Hereditary positions came back later, as evidenced by the fact that the founder of the Tang dynasty was the hereditary duke of Tang, and regional governors were allowed to pass titles on.

Religion
The religion in ancient Rome was much more extensive than the Han religion. While the Roman rulers organized a state religion and the emperors took a big part in it, the Han emperors were more secular; they acknowledged the existence of the gods and took part in ceremonies, but were for the most part unconcerned with them.

The Han used Confucian thought as the primary ideology of the empire, in which the welfare of the people was the concern of the state and the basis of legitimate rule. By 100 BCE, the Confucian ideals of honor, tradition, respecting the lessons of history, and emphasizing the emperor’s responsibility to heaven became the official doctrine of the empire. By embracing Confucian political ideas, the Han established a government that created a careful balance that both allowed emperors to exercise their own power and that empowered officials freedom to carry out their duties, and even to criticize government and impeach corrupt superiors. .

The Shan Hai Jing, a Chinese holy text was edited around the Han dynasty. The Tianshi Dao religious sect of Daoism emerged during the Han Dynasty.

Culture

In both empires, learning and the arts were patronized by both the state and landowners. Wealthy men often bankrolled artists. Many works of art and construction were done during this period. .

Every significant Roman town had public entertainment facilities such as theaters and amphitheaters, the most famous of which was the Colosseum in Rome. The Colosseum was a state-of-the-art entertainment facility, used most infamously for gladiatorial games in which well-trained men fought, sometimes to the death, for the enjoyment of huge crowds of Roman citizens. Public entertainment centers stresses the importance public citizens had in Roman life. .

Oratory was an important tradition in the Roman Empire; passed on from the Greeks, Orators were common in Rome. The forum of the senate generated many impressive and able speakers, whose prose is still recorded today.

In Han china, poetry, stories and books were very common; the elite was expected to be versed in prose and poetry. Men were expected to be able to create a poem on the spot; a popular drinking game was to do a "rock-paper-scissors"(with ancient equivalents)(Chinese:行酒令), after which the loser would either cite a poem on the spot or be forced to drink a cup of wine. To express their thoughts, Han scholars preferred the written medium; many books were written in that era. Many Han officials were appointed based on their ability to write essays explaining Confucian thought and how it applied to the administration of the Empire.

Roman emperors ruled over the Empire with similar authority. However, the position was dangerous; out of 22 emperors between Augustus and the third century, 15 died by murder or suicide. Roman emperors were frequently assassinated and ruled for short periods compared to the Han. The emperors were careful to present themselves as just rulers who governed from the consent of the citizenry, though tyrants such as Caracalla and Nero inflicted misery throughout the empire. Compared to the Han bureaucracy, the Roman empire was relatively under-administered. .

Engineering
As with the vault and the dome, the Romans were first to fully realize the potential of arches, for forming interior spaces and building structures.

The Romans were the world's first major bridge builders. A list of Roman bridges compiled by the engineer Colin O'Connor features 330 Roman stone bridges for traffic, 34 timber bridges and 54 aqueduct bridges, a substantial part still standing and even used to carry vehicles. Another list by the Italian scholar Galliazzo gives even 931 Roman bridges, the majority of which were arch bridges.

These bridges were part of the Roman road system. This spanned more than 250,000 miles (400,000 km) of roads, including more than 50,000 miles (80,500 km) of paved roads. When Rome reached the height of her supremacy, no fewer than 29 great military highways radiated from the city. Hills were cut through and deep ravines filled in. At one point, the Roman Empire was divided into 113 provinces traversed by 372 great road links.

By comparison, in Han China, there were two known arch bridges, referred to in Han literature, while a single Han relief sculpture in Sichuan depicts another arch bridge. The Han road system, mostly unpaved, was 22,000 miles.

The Han built fortified roadways and extensive walls & fortifications that served as both deterrent to the Confederacy of nomadic kingdoms to the north, and to protect traders and merchants along the silk road. As written by Han authors, roads built during the Han were tamped down with metal rammers, yet there is uncertainty over the materials used; Joseph Needham speculates that they were rubble and gravel. The widths of roads ranged from narrow footpaths where only a single horse or oxen could pass at once to large highways that could accommodate the simultaneous passage of nine horse-drawn chariots abreast. Fortified Han roadways were built as far west as Shanshan (Loulan) near the Lop Desert, while Han forces utilized routes that traversed north of the Taklamakan Desert towards Kashgar. A vast network of roads, fortified passes, and wooden bridges built over rushing torrents in steep gorges of the Qinling Mountains was consolidated during the Han, known as the gallery roads. During the reign of Emperor Wu, roads were built to connect newly-conquered territories in what is now Yunnan in the far southwest as well as the Korean Peninsula in the far northeast.

The Han capitalized on another form of water engineering - canals. The Han maintained and expanded the massive engineering works of their predecessor Qin. These include repairs and renovation work on the Dujiangyan Irrigation System of Sichuan and Zhengguo Canal of Shaanxi, both of which were built by the previous State of Qin. Accepting the proposal of Er Kuan (兒寬), in 111 BCE Emperor Wu commissioned Er to lead the project of creating extensions to the Zhengguo Canal that could irrigate nearby terrain elevated above the main canal. Since a large amount of silt had built up over time at the bottom of the Zhengguo Canal (causing flooding), in 95 BCE another project was initiated to tap irrigation waters from further up the Jing River, requiring the dredging of a new 100 km (62 mi) long canal following a contour line above the Zhengguo. The Grand_Canal_(China) was also maintained and expanded.

Economic
Economic decline and political instability had impoverished the Empire, which was now dependent on barbarian mercenaries and in a state of constant revolt. The Roman peasantry and slaves, taxed heavily by the aristocrats, also grew disgruntled. Combined with new religious movements such as Christianity, led to many Roman citizens becoming apathetic to the state of the empire. Many Christians refused to serve in the military (although this would change when Constantine legalized the religion during the Edict of Milan). The deteriorating Roman economy forced the emperors to issue less valuable coins, creating massive inflation; by the end of the Roman empire, the silver coin had only 1/100th the silver content of the silver coin issued under Augustus, leading to economic chaos.

Late during the Han dynasty, aristocrats' accumulation of land in massive quantities forced large numbers of peasants off their lands. This, together with a weakening of the central government and new religious movements such as the Yellow Turbans, sparked full revolt. In the wars that followed, the Han empire was divided into three contending states It was not until the 4th century that China was reunified under the Jin dynasty (Chinese:晉朝). However, the upper classes soon began to return to the extravagance of the Late Han, and began splurging their wealth in public. Jin officials attempted to outdo each other in luxury. One Jin author described one of these incidents.

"Once, the Emperor Wu visited the home of an official. The official served him some pork. The Emperor Wu was astonished at the quality of the pork, and he asked the official how the pork was made so good. He replied 'Of course the pork is excellent! It grew on the milk of of humans.' The Emperor Wu did not punish him; instead he congratulated the official for his ingenuity." The Jin also attempted to farm unsettled land by moving large numbers of "Wu Hu" (Chinese:五胡) or conquered barbarian peoples into China itself. These policies, together with the social unrest caused by the extravagance of the Jin officials and the infighting of the Jin royal family, soon lead to the collapse of the Jin.

Military

Huns were first defeated by Han dynasty and drove out of Asia into Europe. While in Europe, Huns launched attacks on the German tribes living north of the empire, forcing them to invade the Roman empire. Afterward, the Huns attacked the Romans themselves. The weakened Roman army could not cope with this threat; by 476, the Western Roman Empire had collapsed. Although a few rump states continue to exist and the Eastern empire tried several times to reconquer the west, Western Europe was securely in the hands of the barbarians. The modern European countries are derived from the states formed by these peoples. The barbarian invasions had devastated the Empire; the population of Italy and other areas of Europe plummeted. Under Trajan, the Roman Empire was estimated to have a population of about 80 million. Even allowing for a 300 year recovery, by Charlemagne's time, Europe's population was only 30 million (including the influx of Germans). Considering the Byzantine Empire was also included in this analysis (with a population of about 10 million), this indicates how badly Rome was devastated. The Roman civilization would never recover. Although the Germans adopted many of their institutions, they could no longer be in any sense called "Roman". .

After the reunification of China by the Jin, they resettled millions of barbarians in Northern China in order to replenish depopulated areas. When the Jin collapsed into civil war, the barbarians rose up in revolt. It was not until the reign of Ran Min in 350 AD that the Chinese regained control of North China, after which they proceeded to slaughter the barbarians. Although North China again fell in 352 AD, the memory of Ran Min kept the barbarians from reverting to their previous slaughter. As China's system was much more advanced than theirs, they gradually adopted to the Chinese system, abandoning their previous practices. During this period, China was divided into a Northern area ruled by non-Han Chinese rulers that were gradually sinicizing, and a southern area ruled by Chinese rulers who were regarded by historians as legitimate. Eventually, the barbarian invaders were assimilated. Shaowin emperor of Northern Wei, ruler of North China who himself was a non-Chinese, prohibited speaking of languages other than Chinese in his realm. In 581 AD, a Chinese general overthrew the last barbarian dynasty in the north and conquered the south eight years later, reunifying China (see Sui Dynasty). After roughly 400 years of warfare, China's population was about 30 million, far below the height of 56 million recorded during the Han. .

Continuation
The ruler of Shu Han, Liu Bei, claimed to be the successor of the Han dynasty and his state continued to exist until 265CE. The direct Roman line continued to rule the Eastern Roman Empire until 1453. Successor state to the Western Roman Empire was the medieval Holy Roman Empire, to the Eastern Roman Empire the czardom of Russia. Chinese civilization survives to the present time, while Roman civilization merged into the larger medieval European culture which adopted, amongst others, Christian faith, the Latin language and alphabet and Roman Law. The Renaissance a thousand years later marked the conscious return to the classical heritage.


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Talk:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires

Note: this page was imported from wikipedia. See w:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires for more information. --mikeu talk 15:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Note: in order to avoid confusion from between old (Wikipedia) and new (Wikiversity) discussion a significant proportion of discussions were archived here.--Gbaor 17:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Inaccurate data and misleading switch on Roman and Han metallurgical production
It cites inaccurate data about Roman metal production that contradicts wikipedia's own page. For example it claims the Romans only product 4,500 tons of iron, and negligible amounts of copper and lead and small amounts of gold and silver. This directly contradicts Wikipedia, which states The Romans produced 82,500 tons of iron, 15,000t of copper, 80,000 t of lead, 200t of silver, and 9+ t of gold. See link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_economy#Mining_and_metallurgy

Furthermore, it seems someone decided to switch the Roman statistics with the Han Dynasty statistics. The numbers for the Han Dynasty are actually the numbers for the Romans. For example, the page here states "[gold production] entire order of magnitude lower than output in any one of the most profitable Han provinces" but the link it cites actually says the Han gold production is lower than the Roman gold production. The actual link states "entire order of magnitude lower than output in any one of the most profitable Roman provinces."

See correct link citation: https://books.google.com/books?id=8EAcVbN_Gm8C&pg=PT309&lpg=PT309&dq=entire+order+of+magnitude&source=bl&ots=cz7HarvvMg&sig=-qpDrYOen-N0BR1wQAYFZ97_4MM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvxNbqsZ3VAhXBVD4KHchiCTMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=entire%20order%20of%20magnitude&f=false

Inaccurate data & wrong info/incorrect cite attributions
Furthermore, this section cites "Wagner, Donald B.: "The State and the Iron Industry in Han China", NIAS Publishing, Copenhagen 2001, ISBN 87-87062-77-1, p. 73" in saying Han Dynasty iron production was 95,000 tons per year.

However, in the actual source book on p. 73, it states the Han Empire had 5,000 tons of annual iron production, but this figure was not very accurate. Nowhere in the book does it give a figure of 95,000 tons of iron.

Source link: https://books.google.com/books?id=hgpCx2c9JQEC&q=about+5%2C000#v=snippet&q=about%205%2C000&f=false

Delete?
So... it seems confusing to have this on Wikipedia and Wikiversity... I think this should be deleted, and created if and when it is deleted from Wikipedia. Azoreg 19:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See the archives. Never delete, when it is not necessary :) --Gbaor 17:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The evidence of the groups that the han fought and the Huns which the romans fought are the same group is unlikely. The Huns also ceased to exist as a main threat before the Roman (Western Empire) fell. More focus should be on the actual Germans.

Delete
This jingoistic version was deleted on Wikipedia, so why should it be kept here? Please don't tell me that standards of research and truthfulness are really that much lower here. 80.135.218.206 11:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikiversity means you can have far more information, people thinking for themselves, not needing to find a published book or news source to quote every single thing from. Dream Focus 04:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Finally
YES! This is what we need here! Original + quality research! Congrat to the authors, keep it going! --Gbaor 17:16, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Is this the Wiki-'University' equivalent of an orgasm? Seems to me this is rather what you need... Gun Powder Ma 17:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Orgasm equivalent :) ha-ha! I would not call it this way, but to say the truth, I am really happy to have this material here. It is the perfect example what is discouraged at Wikipedia, but very welcomed at Wikiversity! And WV is not just for tertiary education stuff... --Gbaor 08:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Why so much removed?
A lot of stuff was removed. Showing how each empire did its military, I think is important, since that was an important aspect of their empires. Any reason that isn't there? Dream Focus 04:29, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yunnan Not Conquered by Han
The Han Dynasty did not wrest control of Yunnan, as far as I am aware. The Needham reference should be backed up by more modern research if this is asserted. Yunnan did not come under the yoke of Chinese governance until the Yuan Dynasty after Mongol invasion and negotiation with the powerful Yi peoples who controlled the Sichuan/Yunnan mountainous hinterland. Pratyeka 01:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

 * I think you must not know about Emperor Wudi of Han's conquest of the Dian Kingdom. In 109 BC, Emperor Wudi of Han conquered the Dian kingdom and set up Yizhou County here, located in present-day Jinning District, Kunming. There was also a Yongchang Commandery with an address in present-day Dali, Yunnan Province.
 * 永昌郡_百度百科 (baidu.com)
 * 益州郡_百度百科 (baidu.com)
 * 滇国_百度百科 (baidu.com) 李双能 (discuss • contribs) 03:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit request from Intranetusa, 22 July 2017
This page contains a lot of inaccurate data, cites that don't support the statement, and data that has been flipped (the information for the Romans are actually for the Han, and the information for the Han are actually for Romans).

It cites inaccurate data about Roman metal production that contradicts wikipedia's own page. For example it claims the Romans only produced 4,500 tons of iron, and negligible amounts of copper and lead and small amounts of gold and silver. This directly contradicts Wikipedia, which states The Romans produced 82,500 tons of iron, 15,000t of copper, 80,000 t of lead, 200t of silver, and 9+ t of gold. See link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_economy#Mining_and_metallurgy

It claims that the Han Dynasty had 10,000 tons of silver, but the actual source and wikipedia says it was the Romans who had 10,000 tons of silver.

Furthermore, it seems someone decided to switch the Roman statistics with the Han Dynasty statistics. The numbers for the Han Dynasty are actually the numbers for the Romans. For example, the page here states "[gold production] entire order of magnitude lower than output in any one of the most profitable Han provinces" but the link it cites actually says the Han gold production is lower than the Roman gold production. The actual link states "entire order of magnitude lower than output in any one of the most profitable Roman provinces."

See correct link citation: https://books.google.com/books?id=8EAcVbN_Gm8C&pg=PT309&lpg=PT309&dq=entire+order+of+magnitude+lower+than+output+in+any+one+of+the+most+profitable&source=bl&ots=cz7HarvvMg&sig=-qpDrYOen-N0BR1wQAYFZ97_4MM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvxNbqsZ3VAhXBVD4KHchiCTMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=entire%20order%20of%20magnitude%20lower%20than%20output%20in%20any%20one%20of%20the%20most%20profitable&f=false

There are other examples of misquoting. For example, this section cites "Wagner, Donald B.: "The State and the Iron Industry in Han China", NIAS Publishing, Copenhagen 2001, ISBN 87-87062-77-1, p. 73" in saying Han Dynasty iron production was 95,000 tons per year.

However, in the actual source book on p. 73, it states the Han Empire had 5,000 tons of annual iron production, but this figure was not very accurate. Nowhere in the book does it give a figure of 95,000 tons of iron.

Source link: https://books.google.com/books?id=hgpCx2c9JQEC&q=about+5%2C000#v=snippet&q=about%205%2C000&f=false

Are the authors here just ignorant about Chinese literature？
For example, why can't we use Chinese archeology and literature for Han metal production? 24.13.250.220 (discuss) 14:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I question the amount of steel produced in the Roman Empire.
As far as I know, there were about 50 steel factories in the Han Dynasty, with more than 100,000 workers at their peak and 70,000 at their lowest. But it is also impossible to produce such a high steel output. And the Roman Empire does not seem to have built any large steel plants, can there really be such a high steel production? 李双能 (discuss • contribs) 03:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! SB_Johnny talk 18:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Comparison between Roman and Han Empires
Hello, and welcome. Let me know if you would like to have the more recent wikipedia version of Comparison between Roman and Han Empires imported again to reflect the updates since the last import. I can do a bulk copy, if that would save you time. --mikeu talk 01:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

 * It is probably better if you let us use the import function instead of just doing a cut and paste. This preserves the edit history so that everyone can see what changes were made by each editor.  --mikeu talk 20:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Teeninvestor


text:
User talk:Nguru10

 Hello Nguru10, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! -- DarkObsidian 19:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nguru10


text:
User talk:Thisisapseudonym

 Hello Thisisapseudonym, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! -- DarkObsidian 19:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Thisisapseudonym


text:
User talk:Monica user

 Hello Monica user, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit.
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! -- DarkObsidian 19:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Monica user


text:
CSS/Syntax

Introduction
The basic syntax of a CSS style is as follows:

selector{property:value;}

The  defines what HTML elements will be selected with the style. The  is the property being altered by the style. The  is how the elements are altered.

On the Mediawiki sites like this one, the Mediawiki:Common.css allows a CSS collective customization, and the monobook.css an individual one per profile. Consequently it's possible to experiment the following code inside.

To verify whether the intended elements are selected, consider temporarily hiding them using  or , the latter of which hides them without removing their surface space from the page.

Colors

 * 1) By name, there are 16 named colours: aqua, black, blue, fushia, gray, green, lime, maroon, navy, purple, red, silver, teal, white, yellow. Eg:
 * 2) By code RGB (red, green, blue). Eg:
 * 3) By hexadecimal value. Eg:

Text styles

 * 1) font-style proposes 3 text styles: normal, italic, and oblique.
 * 2) font-weight influences the font boldness: normal, bold, bolder, lighter. It also accepts the values between 100 and 900 by steps of 100.
 * 3) font-size : its units can be: cm, mm, in (inches), pt (1 point = 1/72 inches), pc (1 picas = 12 points), em (emphasize), ex (minuscule), px (pixels), %.

Lists

 * 1) Unordered (  ).
 * Its styles are: none, disc, circle, square, url([image]).
 * Example : ul {list-style-type:square;}.
 * 1) Ordered (  ).
 * list-style-type includes: none, decimal, lower-alpha, upper-alpha, lower-roman, upper-roman, url([image]).
 * Example : ol {list-style-type:upper-roman;}

title: CSS/Syntax


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User:Lauradalton

I am Laura Dalton and I am a landscape contractor. I want to learn Spanish.

title: User:Lauradalton


text:
User talk:Lauradalton

Welcome
Hello Lauradalton, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Emesee 23:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lauradalton


text: User:MarcGarver

title: User:MarcGarver


text:
User:Errickw

Errick Wernecke

Student and Active Independent Learner

title: User:Errickw


text:
User talk:Errickw

(>")> ??

title: User talk:Errickw


text:
User:Kraftlos

My Wikipedia userpage

title: User:Kraftlos


text:
User talk:Dgandhi360~enwikiversity

 Hello Dgandhi360, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit.
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And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! SB_Johnny talk 14:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Dgandhi360. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Dgandhi360~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:34, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:06, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Dgandhi360~enwikiversity


text:
User:JennyRosen/Reflections on de los Reyes Paulina (2007) Intersektionella perspektiv på etniska relationer

Paulina de los Reyes

Intersektionella perspektiv på etniska relationer

Reading the de los Reyes text gave me some insights regarding my own work especially concerning ethnicity, as I have until now avoided to use the latter as a relevant category in relation to Swedishness. My main aim with avoiding the term ethnicity has been due to the essentialist baggage of the term. However, after reading the discussions concerning the use of ethnicity from an intersectional theoretical perspective, I can see now how the use of ethnicity and, mostly, taking back and changing its understanding can benefit my work in relation to the study of language education. De los Reyes argues that two main areas of research can be identified in the intersectional perspective; the first has its roots in the feminist theory and the relation between inequalities based on gender in relation to other categories. The connection between gender and class has been a major topic among Marxist feminist scholars; a discussion that many times led to problematic attempts of creating a hierarchy among the different sources of oppression. From this perspective, intersectionality offers a new insight in gender studies, looking at other categorization in relation to gender as the theoretical foundation. The second area of research has its foundation in the anti racist and postcolonial field, going beyond the gendered outlook as its focus. Intersectionality should be understood not as an attempt to combine or make a hierarchy in regard to different categorizations or forms of oppression but instead to blur the boundaries between those and their understanding as fixed entities. Instead, it is class, gender, sexuality and ethnicity the ones that should be seen as dynamic, constructed, complex and situationally bound (2007:44).

But is it possible to conduct research in this area without resorting to these categories? And doesn’t the researcher confirm and strengthen the discourse of categories by using them? According to De los Reyes, whether the result of intersectional research will focus on the relation between different categories or, instead, focus on the question of power and inequality (while breaking free from the categorizations bound to it), remains an open question. Such analyses will not only avoid locking themselves into fixed categorization, but also open up the possibility for taking into consideration several dimensions of power and inequality. Another essential question in contemporary social science is the relation between structure and agency. From an intersectional outlook, a researcher is not only interested in analyzing how subject positions are created in the intersections of different power structures, but also in the negotiation of the individual inside this space. The question of agency is, therefore, central as well as identifying the structure that defines the space in which the individual can move. As Del los Reyes writes “Insikten om att subjektspositioner skapas intersektionellt leder enligt min mening till att de-essentialisera maktutövandet “ (2007:51).

Concerning the understanding of ethnicity, De los Reyes writes “Intersektionalitet rymmer ett intresse för etnicitet som inte i första hand är riktat till grupper eller fenomen som man kan kategorisera som “etniska” utan till etnicitetens förmåga att göra skillnader och skapa ojämlikhet” (2007:46-47). Such an understanding of ethnicity may as well be applied to my own field of study concerning the construction and negotiation of “Swedishness”. Such a change of perspective also includes shifting focus from describing something static to describing processes. Moreover, de los Reyes questions the existence of ethnic groups at all, meaning that research should try to understand how those groups are constructed and the result of defining differences in ethnic terms (2007:47). I would also add that researchers, which aim to describe ethnic groups or ethnic phenomena’s, are themselves creators of ethnic hierarchies.

Ethnicity is closely related to the question of nationalism and race. The myth of the ethnic homogenic nation is questioned in an intersectional perspective, therefore, making visible the differences in regard to gender, class, ethnicity and sexuality inside the national borders. Who are the members of the nation and which roles are given to them? Feminist research has put into light the importance of women in the national project in relation to the male white citizen (Yuval Davies….). Although these results may be of great importance, one should also bring into the analysis the difference between the tasks of women in the national project in relation to ethnicity and class. While some women were controlled and encouraged to give birth to the sons of the nation, other women were sterilized in order to “clean” the nation from undesired population. Race, as an analytical category, has been rather invisible in Swedish research and has been seen as an inconvenient term often replaced by ethnicity. Scholars focusing on intersectionality have highlighted the existence of race and racism in society. Among post colonial researchers, racism is considered to be a corner stone of European and Western cultures. The colonial heritage still influences the understanding of the world and our categorizations in terms of “the West and the rest”. Today’s hierachization in regard to labor markets, housing and other arenas follow the colonial maps. Education and knowledge production in the contemporary world are marked by the colonial heritage and, therefore, still reproduce inequalities (2007:49). A central theme in post colonial theory is the modernist construction of linear time and how societies supposedly develop and modernize in a certain pattern. According to such a view, it is possible to talk about countries and people as being “underdeveloped” and, therefore pressuring them to catch up (2007:53). This view not only reinforces a certain understanding of the world upon others, but also hides capitalism’s need for the “underdeveloped” places in order to maintain the exploitation of places and people.


text:
User talk:MaliLove

 Hello MaliLove, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may

 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit.
 * Visit a (kind of) random project.
 * Browse Wikiversity, or visit a portal corresponding to your educational level: pre-school, primary, secondary, tertiary, non-formal education.
 * Find out about research activities on Wikiversity.

 * Read an introduction for teachers and find out how to write an educational resource for Wikiversity.
 * Give feedback about your initial observations
 * Discuss Wikiversity issues or ask questions at the colloquium.
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold to contribute and to experiment with the sandbox or your userpage, and see you around Wikiversity! --mikeu talk 22:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Happy new year to you and all on WikiVersity. MaliLove 03:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:MaliLove