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Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-23

This is the chat from our meeting on 23rd February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, myrmikonos, pietrodn

topics to discuss for this meeting
14:17 so Daan_ how about we start with the meeting :-) 14:18 Shall we start telling the contents of the text? 14:18 ok 14:18 Here are my notes: 14:19  Themes for discussion on 23 february [edit] 14:19 The text for this meeting is a bit like a frame story. 14:19    * The present is the year 432/431 at the start of the Peloponnesian War between Sparta and Athens. Both sides know that war is inevitable but the fighting has not started yet. It is the silence before the storm. Both Sparta and Athens send messengers to each other to insult each other (using religious reasons: curses) and to convince each other to be just. Questions: 14:19           o What is the role religion plays at the start of this war? 14:19           o How sincere is the appeal to give freedom to the Greeks? 14:19           o Both Pericles, the leader of Athens, and the king of Sparta (earlier in the text) describe the strengths of their country compared to the other. The speeches contradict eachother. 14:19    * The background of the curses are explained in great length, especially the story behind the Spartan Pausanias and the Athenian Themistocles, leaders of the Greeks during the Greco-Persian Wars. Pausanias wanted to become the governor of a Greek province, as part of the Persian Empire and Themistocles was accused of being in league with Pausanias. 14:19          o The text indicates that there was some Greek support for making Greece part of the Persian Empire. 14:19          o The rule of law in Sparta. 14:19          o The respect for the king of Persia. Both Macedon and Persia were kingdoms, yet Thucydides simply says 'the king' when referring to the king of Persia. Persia has a strong appeal to Pausanias. 14:19 * Erkan_Yilmaz reads 14:21 done

What is the role religion plays at the start of this war?
14:21 so as you say the text about the religious probs was quite long, aphorisms: 126-138 14:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and then the Athenian discussion about war decision was until 146 14:22 <Daan_>Well, Thucydides gives a very long explanation of the curses. 14:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, but I liked them 14:22 <Daan_>Especially the cuse due to the murder of Pausanias in a holy temple in Sparta. 14:22 <Daan_>Me too. 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, people are quite tricky to avoid "probs" 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but he died actually outside the temple :-) 14:23 <Daan_>That is true. 14:23 <Daan_>So, there wasn't actually a curse. 14:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>people still were near him when he died, aren't they good people ? (sarcasm) 14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>no curse - I am not sure - the oracle from Delphi told to bury him where he died and to scarifice 2 humans 14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but as I understood they sacrificed 2 statues ? 14:24 <Daan_>Well, in those days that kind of goodness didn't exist. 14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least it i snot written 14:24 <Daan_>I will read it. 14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I 134 (in my book version) 14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"''But the god at Delphi afterwards ordered the Lacedaemonians to remove the tomb to the place of his death--where he now lies in the consecrated ground, as an inscription on a monument declares--and, as what had been done was a curse to them, to give back two bodies instead of one to the goddess of the Brazen House. So they had two brazen statues made, and dedicated them as a substitute for Pausanias.''" 14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1 14:26 <Daan_>They took the roof of the building. 14:27 <Daan_>Yes, that is the right one. 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure, but perhaps they see this as the curse ? because they didn't give back two real humans ? 14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what do you say ? 14:27 <Daan_>Yes, that is right. 14:28 <Daan_>So, in Greece if you didn't observe the rules of the gods, than you would be cursed. 14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah 14:28 <Daan_>And both Athens and Sparta reminded eachother of eachothers curses. 14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the question is: what did the curse have an effect ? 14:28 <Daan_>Question is were they really religious. 14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in the text it is told that the Spartans for killing the helots were send an earthquake by teh Gods 14:29 <Daan_>Bad luck, perhaps. 14:29 <Daan_>Yes. 14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to the question you told 14:30 <Daan_>A bit like the earthquakes in Israel, which were blamed to liberalizing homosexuality laws by orthodox Jews. 14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I remember a passage where Pericles friends were accused to also give bad light on him on religious matters and there it is told that he always did go to the religious services 14:30 <Daan_>In the beginning of the text, Thucydides says that certain natural disasters happened due to the war, so he probably was religious. 14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, if it is asked form Athenian politicians to do this, I guess the demos had an high interest in this religious things 14:31 <Daan_>Yes. 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, the question then is: when did the people during the war lose their religion ? because they did quite many bad things - killing people who surrendered already 14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and such 14:32 <Daan_>They were not christians. 14:32 <Daan_>Greeks even sacrificed living people. 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps we must difference between normal people not involved in war activities and warriors and politicians and so on 14:32 <Daan_>Because they thought they were ordered by the gods. 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and who tells them what God wants ? 14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the priests ? 14:32 <Daan_>Tradition. 14:32 <Daan_>Stories. 14:32 <Daan_>Common knowledge. 14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but when I see the stories, there are also Gods, who don't act as other Gods do 14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so you could actually everything blame on Gods decisions .-) 14:33 <Daan_>That is true. 14:33 - Olando joined 14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Olando 14:33 <Daan_>No, because they could punish you. 14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ciao Olan 14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>tsts 14:34 <Daan_>And gods are divded amongst eachother, a bit like the humans are divided as well. 14:34 <Daan_>He was looking for someone? 14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure, he was from Italian WP as it seems 14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, back again .-) 14:35 <Daan_>Death and murder weren't always bad in Greece. 14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like in fighting - when someone kills many enemies he is "good" 14:35 <Daan_>But largescale war probably was, because there were natural disasters, according to Thucydides. 14:36 <Daan_>Yes, but only when it is according to the rules. 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well probably there is also other views: 14:36 <Daan_>Killing can also be bad for the ancient Greeks. 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. you could perhaps say: Spartans would think: Athens started war, so all dead people are to blame to them 14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and they are just doing what the Gods want 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't it that the oracle told that the God is with the Peloponnesians ? 14:37 <Daan_>The gods are divided, so you can do what one god wants, but another god would be against it. 14:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so how you do it -it is always good and bad all together 14:37 <Daan_>Zeus, wasn't it. 14:37 <Daan_>Yes. 14:38 <Daan_>The world is a bit like a chaos. 14:38 <Daan_>In ancient Greece. 14:38 <Daan_>But, there were many different opinions. 14:38 <Daan_>Many Greek philosophers didn't believe in gods or a god. 14:39 <Daan_>And Plato believed in perfect ideas. 14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well comparing to the actual times - I am not sure how many people these days believe in Gods or higher powers 14:39 <Daan_>Most people in the world do. 14:39 <Daan_>Only Europe and East Asia are different. 14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one mom, someone called 14:40 <Daan_>Buddhists and taoists don't believe in god. 14:40 <Daan_>Okay. 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so told to call me later :-) 14:41 <Daan_>:-) 14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah I see like - either give the responsibility for actions to someone else or oneself 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but well we probably are going too far away from our book now ? 14:42 <Daan_>Or to nature. 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 14:42 <Daan_>That is true. 14:42 <Daan_>We can discuss another theme. 14:42 <Daan_>Justice. 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, I would say the Greeks in general or the people in general in these times back then were religious 14:42 <Daan_>Sparta demands from Athens to give freedom to the Greeks. 14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and how this affects their deeds which Thucydides describes 14:43 <Daan_>Sorry, lets stay with the Greek religion. 14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 14:43 <Daan_>They were back then, but religion was starting to become a vague blur. 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Thucydides describes what Lacedaemonians and Athenians tell each other about religious problems in the past 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean like the more people know the less religious they are ? 14:44 <Daan_>No, they use it for political reasons. 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 14:44 <Daan_>To insult eachother. 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least Thucydides tell so 14:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps they use it also for others to convince more in their cause 14:44 <Daan_>New ideas arised, and they were very different from traditional religion. 14:45 <Daan_>That could be. 14:45 <Daan_>Propaganda. 14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>exactly 14:45 <Daan_>Especially the appeal to freedom is. 14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 14:46 <Daan_>Athens dominated foreign city states and Sparta dominated Messenia, so they both abused people. 14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess no matter what if you have power (in that times) you abuse someone 14:46 <Daan_>Yes.

Sparta was sincere in appealing to Athens to give the Greeks their freedom. It really was the precondition to make peace
14:47 <Daan_>Strange is: why should a villager in Attica feel like an Athenian, while his neighbour is living in another country. 14:47 <Daan_>So, what is freedom? 14:48 <Daan_>Theory: Sparta was sincere in appealing to Athens to give the Greeks their freedom. It really was the precondition to make peace. 14:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>freedom is what others allow you to being able to do 14:49 <Daan_>Yes. 14:49 <Daan_>But also what you allow for yourself to do. 14:50 <Daan_>Feeling happy could be freedom. 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who said this onece ? my freedom goes until the border of one elses freedom ? 14:50 <Daan_>John Stuart Mill 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>oh, cool 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably he was not the only one saying so 14:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you graduated with this topic ain't ? 14:51 <Daan_>I don't know. I read a lot of books on him for my final paper. 14:51 <Daan_>Most writers tell lies in order to advance their ideology. 14:51 <Daan_>So, i don't know if he was the first. 14:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 14:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so about your theory 14:52 <Daan_>What i read from a 'good' book was that he was the first to express the freedom of action, instead of only the freedom of speech. 14:52 <Daan_>Yes, lets go back to thucydides. 14:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>according to Pericles it was just an excuse of the Lacaedomonians to interfere in Athenian politics 14:53 <Daan_>Yes, but Pericles has an ambiguous speech. 14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 14:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>when judging the Lacaedemoninans actions from the past - they stay most of the times in the Peloponnese - who knows ? it is worth discussing this theory 14:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it could be something like: divide and conquer ? 14:54 <Daan_>Pericles tried to unite Athens for the coming war, i think. 14:54 <Daan_>He used the best words to bring war closer. 14:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, he wanted to show Sparta a firm answer, because what Pericles wanted to do, giving up the lands and houses and await in the walls is quite interesting action and is untraditional 14:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>some might even call it cowardice 14:55 <Daan_>Yes, but that is his strategy. 14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, but unfortunately in the days to come there are things which strain on his strategy 14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but actually a good strategy 14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to use the powers you have for the best and the things you are not good at, leave them 14:57 <Daan_>Here is an interesting sentence: "If you yield to them in a small matter, they will think that you are afraid, and will immediately dictate some more oppressive condition; but if you are firm, you will prove to them that they must treat you as their equals." 14:57 <Daan_>Last sentence of aphorism 140. 14:57 <Daan_>In the speech of Pericles. 14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess there were then less people who wanted to say something against this, since it gets people at their pride 14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like: the proud Athenian polis will not yield to anyone 14:59 <Daan_>Perhaps he was afraid that Athens would be much weaker and vulnerable if they yielded. 14:59 <Daan_>Now they can still beat the enemy, he thinks but later on it could be too late. 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, because if they gave in to Sparta more of Athenian allies would defect 14:59 <Daan_>It is a bit like the American logic of nowadays. 14:59 <Daan_>Not giving in to the 'terrorists'. 14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, how is the American logic nowadays ? 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, no state gives in officially to terrorists :-) this happens behind closed doors 15:00 <Daan_>Well, if you attack, than people will respect you, if you don't they will attack you. 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like: attack is the best defense ? 15:00 <Daan_>Yes. 15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, I guess so too 15:01 <Daan_>But, America also wants to rule the world, Athens wanted to stay an empire. 15:01 <Daan_>So, they don't want to give in to the weak. 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well was Sparta and allies weak ? 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in matters of navy: yes 15:01 <Daan_>Of course, Sparta actually was stronger, because Sparta won the war. 15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in money: yes 15:01 <Daan_>So, perhaps it was wiser to keep the peace. 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well since I did not read until end, I do not know why they won, so please don't tell me now

after this reading group finished, we will continue with Xenophon
15:02 <Daan_>Than I have an unpleasant surprise, Thucydides quit writing when the war still had to go on for 6 years in his book. 15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah but Xenophon continues 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>my plan is after reading Thucydides to continue with Xenophon 15:03 <Daan_>Than we can continue with Xenophnon. 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, that would be fine 15:03 <Daan_>That would be good! 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great, so we are already two for the next reading group 15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, back to this RG :-) 15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>from what happened: Athenians gave a united answer to Peloponnesians 15:04 <Daan_>Did they have a majority vote? 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not told in the text, but it is told "they tell" - one mom, looking up 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>second last aphorism in book1: "145 Such were the words of Pericles. The Athenians, persuaded of the wisdom of his advice, voted as he desired, and answered the Lacedaemonians as he recommended, both on the separate points and in the general; they would do nothing on dictation, but were ready to have the complaints settled in a fair and impartial manner by the legal method, which the terms of the truce prescribed. So the envoys departed home and did not return again" 15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so majority I think, but strong or weak ? 15:06 <Daan_>It doesn't tell.

arbitration
15:06 <Daan_>What was the impartial method? 15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what do you mean ? 15:07 <Daan_>"they would do nothing on dictation, but were ready to have the complaints settled in a fair and impartial manner by the legal method, which the terms of the truce prescribed" 15:07 <Daan_>impartial manner, i mean. 15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think they mean arbitration 15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me see the truce 15:08 <Daan_>The conflict is, do Corcyra and Potideia belong to Corinth or are they independent? 15:08 <Daan_>Or is it, Corinth and Athens fighting eachother on the ground of a third party. 15:09 <Daan_>While they are supposed not to fight eachother. 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Potideia was a settlemnt of Corinth, but member of the Delian league 15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corcyra was accordng the treaty neutral 15:10 <Daan_>So, impartiality is impossible, and Pericles knew that. 15:11 <Daan_>The confederation didn't had much confidence in the legal method of the treaty at least. 15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I think arbitration could have been an option if e.g. Corinth would not interfere too much, because Lacaedemoninas were not so easy willing to go to war, also Pericles' actions until the declaration of the Athenian meeting was not so war aggressive 15:12 <Daan_>(Playing advocate of the devil) All these squabling wouldn't have been possible if Greece was ruled by sattrap Pausanias. 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because both hegemonial powers already did divide their territories 15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but smaller states who were uprising were not happy 15:13 <Daan_>You mean regarding Pausanias? 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>no, not yet Pausanias, I was still at the arbitration issue 15:14 <Daan_>Okay. 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if both powers could have more influence on their allies (meaning here e.g. Sparta to Corinth) arbitration could have been an option 15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but as you say 15:14 <Daan_>There was only a small rebellion in Potideia at the start of the war. 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles and also Spartans saw that Corinth did not want to give in :-( 15:15 <Daan_>Yes, i think so. 15:15 <Daan_>So, Sparta and Athens could have negotiated a deal together. 15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well even started small at Potideia, but it took quite long and a lot of money for Athenians to bring down Potiteida 15:15 <Daan_>That is true. 15:16 <Daan_>Sparta and Athens didn;t trust eachother too much. 15:16 <Daan_>Sparta couldn't afford losing Corinth, but Corinth couldn't aford losing Sparta as well. 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well for Sparta this is true, but Corinth had also other options 15:16 <Daan_>Whom? 15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. they threatened Sparta to make a treaty with Argos and so 15:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>since the treaty with Argos and Sparta was coming to an end soon 15:17 <Daan_>But Sparta was stronger than Argos. Sparta had one of the largest territories in Greece and a highly disciplined army. Athens even was strong enough to invade Egypt. 15:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one mom, let me search the place 15:18 <Daan_>I think Corinth wanted to keep independence. 15:18 <Daan_>And Corinth was a naval power, and therefore could afford to demand things from Sparta. 15:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"102: and the instant that they (the Athenians) returned home they broke off the alliance which had been made against the Mede, and allied themselves with Sparta's enemy Argos;" 15:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"71: and drive the rest of us in despair to some other alliance." 15:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is not directly told, but the explanation to my text tells it 15:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. 421-418 Korinth was partnered with Argos 15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and yes, Corinth demanded many things always from Sparta 15:23 <Daan_>So Corinth had been against Sparta some time. 15:23 <Daan_>Or not? 15:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well they were not always willing to do as Sparta wanted 15:24 <Daan_>Yes, but despair means that it wouldn't the right thing to do. 15:24 <Daan_>Yes. 15:24 <Daan_>So, they were equal partners. 15:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like e.g. the Boeotians one of the other ally of Lacaedemonia 15:25 <Daan_>It is a bit Nietzschean. 15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>equal when Lacaedemoninas had probs on other fronts :-) 15:25 <Daan_>Yes. 15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the prob was that Sparta could not fight on several places 15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what is with Nietzsche ? 15:25 <Daan_>I read Also sprach Zarathustra partly last year. 15:26 <Daan_>The kind of friendship that Sparta and Corinth have seems Nietzschean: they respect eachother by demanding to be respected upon. 15:26 <Daan_>I mean: 15:27 <Daan_>They are equal, because they can temporarily turn their backs on eachother. 15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like a hate-love-relation ? 15:28 <Daan_>Yes. 15:28 <Daan_>both a bit macho, doing things the other doesn't like. Than they can do things against eachother, but in the end they stick together: true friendship. 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows if it ever was friendship, it was a necessity 15:30 <Daan_>Allthough friendship can also be something else, of course. 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they needed each other and the only option was this kind of relation ?

Greece as part of Persia ?
15:30 <Daan_>Well, they could have become part of Persia. 15:30 <Daan_>No. 15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if so, then they didn't need to fight the Persians before :-) 15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they seemed not to like the idea being part of Persia 15:31 <Daan_>Most did, but there were people secretly and even openly thinking twice. 15:31 <Daan_>Pausanias was regent of Sparta and one of the ephors supported him. 15:32 <Daan_>Sparta could have become a Persian provincial capital. 15:32 <Daan_>Or perhaps another place. 15:32 <Daan_>The Fifth Column. 15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, though he was King of Sparta, the power was also not only with him, e.g. ephors command him back when he was on his secret mission 15:33 <Daan_>Yes, but a minority was in league with him. 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which ephor or place you have this from ? 15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>134 I think ? 15:34 <Daan_>Before it, i will look it up. 15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"It is reported that, as he was about to be arrested in the street, he saw from the face of one of the ephors what he was coming for; another, too, made him a secret signal, and betrayed it to him from kindness." 15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I, 134 15:35 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back in 2 mins 15:36 <Daan_>Yes. 15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>back 15:37 <Daan_>And, was Themistocles in league with Pausanias or was it just a fear among the Greeks. 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think he was, because: 15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I 135: "Matter was found in the course of the inquiry to implicate Themistocles; and the Lacedaemonians accordingly sent envoys to the Athenians and required them to punish him as they had punished Pausanias. The Athenians consented to do so." 15:38 <Daan_>When one side is in power all those who are dependent of them will keep their silence, it is not known how they will respond if the enemy conquers all. 15:39 <Daan_>I have read some books about the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands in the 1940s. 15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, and ? 15:40 <Daan_>Two of the three major prime ministers of the Netheralnds openly made pro-German actions and remarks, once the Germans were in power. 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) camp followers 15:40 <Daan_>One of them was in office, he left the goverment in exile in London and went back to occupied Holland. 15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess these politicians were punished later on ? 15:40 <Daan_>It was a deal with the Nazis. 15:41 <Daan_>The latter guy was shunned by his wife, his village and collegues in his political party. 15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok 15:41 <Daan_>They wanted him to stay in London. 15:42 <Daan_>w:Dirk Jan de Geer 15:42 <Daan_>Dirk Jan de Geer, was his name. 15:42 <Daan_>The other politican was Hendrikus Colijn. 15:42 <Daan_>But the Dutch Nazi party was trippled in size in the summer of 1940. 15:43 <Daan_>So, the Greeks were affraid of this in the 5th century. 15:43 <Daan_>as well. 15:43 <Daan_>Persia was huge and Greece was small. 15:43 <Daan_>and divided. 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, even Persia was small, still they could not conquer them :-) 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I guess people who wanted to act with the Medes were considered traitors after such many losses in wars 15:44 - BotSottile joined 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi BotSottile 15:44 <Daan_>Hi BotSottile 15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is a bot 15:45 <BotSottile>Hey :) 15:45 <Daan_>What is he doing here? 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>even when Athens was engaged in Egypt Persia made offers to Sparta, but there was no success in the actions 15:45 <Daan_>Not a bot, i guess. 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I asked his owner to jon this channel 15:45 <BotSottile>Hello Erkan_Yilmaz. 15:45 <BotSottile>Hi Daan_. 15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is his normal greeting 15:46 <Daan_>Yes (Sparta) 15:47 <Daan_>Persia probably didn't want to go though all the fuss again. 15:47 <Daan_>Persepolis was very far from Greece. 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Persia's strategy to use internal quarrels is a good one 15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>before they could not fight both powers and trying to get one on Persia's side is nice 15:48 <Daan_>Divide and conquer. 15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah 15:48 <Daan_>Here is the map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Achaemenid_Empire.jpg 15:48 <Daan_>Greece fits 15 times in the raod from Greece to the capital of Persia. 15:49 <Daan_>Persia was not afraid, i think. 15:49 <Daan_>And Athens had to go to a lot of trouble to keep big enough to stay independent.

knowledge over time
15:50 <Daan_>Strange that there are so many Greek texts, and so little Persian texts from that time. 15:50 <Daan_>Or have they vanished from history? 15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>sorry again someone here 15:51 <Daan_>Busy place :-) 15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what is your theory on why the Persian texts are so less ? 15:52 <Daan_>I think that Athens was very much advanced. 15:52 <Daan_>Without athens, there hardly was a Greek culture. 15:52 <Daan_>Athens was a major city in the Mediterranean Sea. 15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>unfortunately we have no Greek here, let me try to find one 15:52 <Daan_>But that doesn't explain all. 15:53 <Daan_>The main reason is coincidence. 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not available :-( 15:53 <Daan_>Pity. 15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, my theory would be - without knowing the details - either some probs because of conservation restrictions or that one power destroyed unwanted knowledge 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though there are much more possibilities 15:54 <Daan_>If Greece hadn't become so big, than many Greek texts could have been lost. 15:54 <Daan_>The Europeans and the Arabs have preserved many texts. 15:54 <Daan_>All the originals are gone. 15:54 <Daan_>We only got copies now. 15:54 <Daan_>coppies 15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I wonder what happens with our texts in 2400 years from now ? 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we don't have so many things in stone or such 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine something destroys everything digitally 15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and I don't know how quality of these days papers are 15:55 <Daan_>Our culture of cherishing as much information as possible only exist for 150 years. 15:56 <Daan_>It could be that a power arises among people, which destroys all knowledge. 15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let's hope not 15:56 <Daan_>Or, what will climate change bring. 15:56 <Daan_>Climate is changing as rapidly as at the end or the beginning of an ice age. 15:57 <Daan_>In 500 years earth probably will have a much different climate. 15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>who knows until then some humans escape to other places in the universe and save our knowledge 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or another place on earth, e.g. into the oceans 15:58 <Daan_>Well, the planets are too barren in the solar system. 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or we transcend into pure matery 15:58 <Daan_>And other stars are too far away. 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or we just are extinct :-) 15:58 <Daan_>Like in Star Trek :-) 15:58 <Daan_>I think the last thing is most likely. 15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-) 15:59 <Daan_>;-) 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, where were we before future-telling ? ;-) 15:59 <Daan_>But, lets get back to Thucydides. 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes 15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Persia and Greece 15:59 <Daan_>Yes.

The rule of law in Sparta
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so which of the discussion points we didnt have yet ? 16:00 <Daan_>I quickly read my notes and i think that we have discussed them all. 16:00 <Daan_>Perhaps there are parts in the text which are interesting enough, and which i missed. 16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what was this one ? "The rule of law in Sparta." 16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and "Both Pericles, the leader of Athens, and the king of Sparta (earlier in the text) describe the strengths of their country compared to the other. The speeches contradict eachother." 16:02 <Daan_>Well, i liked the rule of law in Sparta. The way Pausanias is treated is likely to how the system of justice works in Western Europe for common Europeans. 16:02 <Daan_>First evidence and than conviction. 16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, I see 16:02 <Daan_>Only the punishment is slightly different. 16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>though there are several indications they just wait for the securest proof 16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>at least as how Thucydides tells 16:03 <Daan_>Yes, there was tricked evidence, that is forbidden in Holland. 16:03 <Daan_>Yes, of course. 16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like recording someone without his/her knowledge ? 16:03 <Daan_>Yes. 16:04 <Daan_>If evidence is taken from that, than it is not counted in court. 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, I guess this is done already and not just told and then somehow people die in accidents 16:04 <Daan_>The Americans were very angry with this in the case of Nathalie Holloway. 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but you are right in courts normally it wouldn't count 16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>.wiki Nathalie Holloway 16:05 <Daan_>Yes, that is true. 16:05 <BotSottile>"Natalee Ann Holloway (born October 21, 1986) disappeared on May 30, 2005 during a high school graduation trip in Aruba, a Caribbean country that is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathalie_Holloway 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx BotSottile 16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>nice feature isnt it ? 16:05 <Daan_>The American dad of Nathalie said that Van der Sloot would have been convicted with acquired knowledge in Alabama where they come from. 16:06 <Daan_>It is. 16:06 <Daan_>But i don't know if that is true. 16:06 <Daan_>It has nothing to do with 5th century Greece, though. 16:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>can't tell you either 16:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess the ephors reasons must have been also be ruled by other things 16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps that the Spartan King was King for lifetime and they needed more things to get him convicted and such 16:07 <Daan_>Pausanias was regent for the king, so he would lose all power when the king became adult. 16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>indeed 16:07 <Daan_>Still, he was above the ephors, that was tricky. 16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>unless the regent would die before 16:08 <Daan_>Yes. 16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or he could manipulate him somehow ? 16:08 <Daan_>That is true.

speeches of Pericles and Archidamos
16:09 <Daan_>The other point about the speeches: 16:10 <Daan_>I wanted to compare the speech of Pericles with that of the Spartan king. 16:10 <Daan_>Especially when it comes to military strategy. 16:10 <Daan_>I think Pericles has a better story. 16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Archidamos speech I 80-85 16:10 <Daan_>The Spartan king says that the Athenians are morally bad, so they will do something stupid. 16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles I 140-144 16:11 <Daan_>Pericles gives a reasonible strategy: pillage their land, whcih they can't afford and we will be fed by the empire on sea. 16:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Archidamos offers also a strategy like: prepare for the war e.g. collect more money 16:12 <Daan_>Archidamos doesn't use the word moral though. 16:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have the passage ? 16:12 - BotSottile is now known as BotoloPazzo 16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he also tells to limit Athenian income, because the war will not be won by weapons, more by money 16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because it will go on long 16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>most of the Greeks though that Athens could last only some years agains Sparta 16:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I 80: "I fear rather that we may leave it as a legacy to our children; so improbable is it that the Athenian spirit will be the slave of their land, or Athenian experience be cowed by war." 16:17 <Daan_>It is 84 16:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I 84: "In practice we always base our preparations against an enemy on the assumption that his plans are good; indeed, it is right to rest our hopes not on a belief in his blunders, but on the soundness of our provisions." 16:18 <Daan_>The king is wrong, because Pericles is a thoughtful politicain. 16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, let me play Archidamos and you play Pericles ok ? 16:19 <Daan_>Okay 16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so Pericles, why is Pericles thoughtful ? 16:20 <Daan_>He knows that he can pillage enemy land in a geurilla war and fead from povisions from the sea. 16:20 <Daan_>feed 16:20 <Daan_>provisions. 16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true and this also was done several times in the War 16:20 <Daan_>What will the Spartans do against it? 16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>short attacks on coastal cities on the Peloponnese 16:20 <Daan_>Yes. 16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not so much, because at e.g. Sphacteria there were taken Spartan hostages 16:21 <Daan_>When the Spartan army goes the Attica, than the Athenians could try to conquer Sparta. 16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and Sparta could not do much because of fear that these hostages would be killed 16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well Athenians dont have the power to conquer Sparta 16:21 <Daan_>But, if the Spartan army is gone, then they can. 16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they tried on some occasions at the Northeast of the Peloponnese 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thinking to get together with Argos 16:22 <Daan_>So, the Athenian army was too weak? 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Athenian Army was also decimated by the pest 16:22 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also their money was decreasing the longer the war went 16:22 <Daan_>That is bad luck. 16:23 <Daan_>Yes, Sparta didn't had a big money problem. 16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Peloponnesians did their regularly "visits" to Attica to demoralize the Athenians 16:23 <Daan_>Except when Athens could sack Spartan land. 16:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but also didnt continue these after certain restrictions 16:23 <Daan_>A very long war. 16:24 <Daan_>The big disadvantage for Athens was the bad working government with silly plans. 16:25 <Daan_>Like the invasion of Sicily. 16:25 <Daan_>Also, Sparta wouldn't lose allies if the money was done. 16:26 <Daan_>Perhaps, Archidamos was right after all. 16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess that the Athenian politicians became after Pericles died and they saw that they could hold out against Peloponnesians too eager to increase their empire more 16:26 <Daan_>Sparta didn't have to discipline his allies, so that was a major benefit. 16:26 <Daan_>Yes. 16:27 <Daan_>That is what you often see in history in my opinion. 16:27 <Daan_>Arrogance comes before the fall, is a Dutch saying 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is also used in Germany :-) 16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall 16:27 <Daan_>Yes, i mean hoogmoed 16:28 <Daan_>Hoogmoet is something different than arrogance. 16:28 <Daan_>Hoogmoet komt voor de val. 16:28 <Daan_>Nearly the same language. 16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess nobody is immune against arrogance 16:29 <Daan_>Only if you want to have more than you got. 16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but then we are again at freedom 16:29 <Daan_>Or presume that what you have is better than that of others. 16:29 <Daan_>Yes. 16:29 <Daan_>And philosophy. 16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess both hegemonial powers had these kind of thoughts 16:29 <Daan_>Yes, certainly. 16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. the Spartans believing that their way of living is better than the Athenian way of living 16:30 <Daan_>Archidamos thinks the Spartans are better, and that has to proven still. 16:30 <Daan_>Yes. 16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>he tells Spartans are prudent, sense of honor and are not so good educated 16:30 <Daan_>Yes, it is nonsense.

non-topic lines deleted

16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah well we can stop then ? 16:32 <Daan_>Okay 16:32 <Daan_>Shall we meet again next week? 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not so good educated .. to go over our laws 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>definitely 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I will put the chat log again online 16:32 <Daan_>What do you mean with: to go over our laws? 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and next week I hope the others join too - ain't it so pietrodn ? 16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos ? 16:33 <Daan_>Shall we read 1-25 of book II? 16:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I84: "And we are wise, because we are educated with too little learning to despise the laws, and with too severe a self-control to disobey them, and are brought up not to be too knowing in useless matters--such as the knowledge which can give a specious criticism of an enemy's plans in theory, but fails to assail them with equal success in practice--" 16:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, 25 aphorisms is fine 16:34 <Daan_>I think knowledge mostly makes you stronger. 16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>agree 16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I guess he sees it as a soldier 16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like: what worked so far, works also good for the future, soldiers don't ask they do orders 16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like goal oriented 16:35 <Daan_>Soldiers always use the tactics of the last war. 16:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess soldiers do what they are told 16:36 <Daan_>Yes, but generals often are concervative. 16:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well there are in the War some generals which do quite contrary things 16:37 <Daan_>That is true. 16:37 - BotoloPazzo is now known as BotSottile 16:37 <Daan_>I will go now. 16:37 <Daan_>See you next week. 16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, thx for the chat, see you next week latest 16:38 <Daan_>Pity that we were the only two, actually discussing.


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User:Cubinoid~enwikiversity

Cubinoid is the online name of Ben Henderson.

You can find him on http://myspace.com/cubinoid

And his short films are on http://youtube.com/cubinoid

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Cubinoid~enwikiversity


text:
User talk:Bm~enwikiversity

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Bm. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Bm~enwikiversity that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 23:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 06:04, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bm~enwikiversity


text:
User:POSTscript

Hello... this is my page

title: User:POSTscript


text:
Climbing fundamentals

This course provides the basic information of modern climbing.

Since this is a topic which has been much explored elsewhere, this page serves to help locate relevant information.

Readings

 * How to rock climb
 * A Beginner's Guide to Rock Climbing

title: Climbing fundamentals


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User:Hillgentleman/Wikiversity learning model

Please feel free to comment. Hillgentleman|Talk 01:08, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The learning project wikiversity learning model has been started. I have not followed most of it. So I gather some of my thoughs here.

We know:
 * There is a lot of information on-line and on-paper. The problem for a student is to learn the information, that is to digest it, understand it, and make it part of her own.
 * Traditionally this is done in the classroom, at home, in the lab, with paper, experiments, blackboard, oral discussions, etc
 * Traditional learning is all very good, but
 * 1. it is exclusive! (you must be there physically with the teacher)
 * 2. it is limited (if you are stuck, you have only a few places to seek help)
 * Wikiversity is to provide anybody, who is interested in anything, an alternative avenue for the learning process.
 * 1. Wikiversity is to open up the learning process.
 * 2. If we can do that, Wikiversity want to do more: to let everybody contribute, and show the best to everybody.

Now the question is: in what way is the wiki-community, with the mediawiki engine, and its supplements (robots,irc,skype,msn,radios,videos,etc) going achieve that?

That is, how can wiki-community with the help of all the wiki-technology, help a student learn (original or not), ie
 * ask the right questions
 * gather the relevant information and rearrange them to her liking
 * digest the information
 * understand the information -> create knowledge
 * use the newly gained knowledge to solve problems, to generate more knowledge, and to generate more questions

?


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User:Vpuri

Hi!

This is Vivek Puri and Welcome to my Wiki Page.

title: User:Vpuri


text:
User:Mrfunding

Mrfunding is a pseudonym for Robert Steven Kramarz, most commonly known as Rob Kramarz. Mr. Kramarz is an organization development and management training consultant, living San Diego, California. He specializing in improving corporate culture so that companies are more likely to succeed. He is active as a professional investor and member of Tech Coast Angels and the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He is also founder of Intelliversity, a non-profit that provides management training for entrepreneurs, scientists and inventors who want to be successful in business. Around Tech Coast Angels he's known as "the team guy."

Mr. Kramarz studied phsyics and environmental studies at California Institute of Technology. He earned a BA in psychology from UC Santa Cruz, where he participated in a small group of students and faculty who designed the core curriculum and campus of Kresge College in the early 1970's.

After several years of computer programming professionally, Mr. Kramarz moved into technical writing then director of corporate communications for Vector Graphics and as General Manager and Marketing Vice President for Cordata in the early 1980's. He was instrumental in obtaining venture funding for Cordata in 1981-2.

Following these management positions, Mr. Kramarz utilized his writing and training skills to design a series of training programs for Accelerated Computer Training and mastered classroom skills by teaching for a number of adult education schools in the middle 1980s. In the late 1980's through the late 1990's, Mr. Kramarz was co-founder and CEO of computer software company 1776, Inc. which specialized in UNIX system software and storage equipment with an emphasis on high availability. In this role, he refined his ability to develop training tools and marketing programs for high technology ventures. He also developed skills in the related area of software human interface design, designing the human interface for 1776 software.

Beginning in 1999 until 2002, Mr. Kramarz assisted a number of software firms during the dot-com era in the preparation of business plans and the raising of capital. During this period, he also mastered the art of ghost-writing patent applications, writing a total of 21 provisional patents all in the area of software technology, of which at least three have have been allowed as a patent at the time of this writing.

In 2003, Mr. Kramarz took a break from technology and took up real estate. He obtained his license as a real estate agent, specializing in mortgage loans and in purchasing homes at below market prices. He was successful for a number of years during the real estate boom and wrote many articles on his methods. He also had a radio show on KCEO in San Diego called The Problem Solvers, where he was given the title "The King of Instant Equity". Mr. Kramarz's also designed the training program for Foreclosure Trackers, Inc., teaching the public how to profitably purchase defaulted mortgages.

Meanwhile, beginning in 1999 to the present, Mr. Kramarz resumed his study of adult education methods. He took on leadership roles in a variety of adult and business education programs such as Excellerated Business Schools. Through these programs, Mr. Kramarz has developed a broad background in various training methods for adults, with a particular interest in management training.

In 2006, Mr. Kramarz founded a company called "Intelliversity" whose goal is to train entrepreneurs, scientists and inventors in the human arts of business management, so that their ventures are more likely to succeed. The term "Intelliversity" is a combination of "Intelligent" and "University". It also echoes the term "Intelliverse", a term coined by Mr. Kramarz, referring to the idea of an intelligent universe. The first offering by the Intelliversity in 2006 was a course on creativity for business leaders, designed to stimulate the ability to innovate and sustain a culture of innovation. In this course, Mr. Kramarz included a number of ideas of his own about how to facilitate creativity in adults, as well as classic methods such as Six Thinking Hats developed by Edward de Bono.

Intelliversity applied for non-profit status and received its 501(c)3 status in 2010. As a non-profit, Intelliversity plans to carry out research to discover causative relationships between measurable aspects of corporate culture and business success in emerging growth companies. This will enable professional investors, such as angels and venture capital firms, to invest in companies that have a greater likelihood of long-term success. Intelliversity operates a blog at www.intelliversity.wordpress.com and plans a series of training programs for entrepreneurs, scientists and inventors on creating winning management teams and corporate cultures.

title: User:Mrfunding


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Wikiversity talk:Publishing original research

Types of papers
In original research material, there is a distinction to be made between original research and original hypotheses. Papers of the former sort normally include research results and conclusions, whereas papers of the latter kind include only an original hypothesis and optionally suggestions for how to test it. Since there is a great deal more creative thinking going on than experimentation, naturally, I would expect a great many more papers that present only new hypotheses without any testing. This just fine by me. I would like to see a great deal more collaboration in the refinement of original hypotheses.

Wikeversity should and does allow papers of both sorts, and both types should be available for peer review. Peer review of an original hypothesis paper can include, for example, critical discussion of 1) how well the paper establishes connections between the new hypothesis and previous research and established consensus; 2) how well the derivation of the new idea is explained and justified, 3) the strength of the suggestions made for testing (verification or falification) of the new hypothesis; and 4) any suggested improvements to the proposed testing. This can be extremely valuable in the development of valid tests and avoiding expensive experimental design errors.

Since both types of papers are important, I think we need a method to flag which type of paper is being submitted.

A journal to support research?
The discussion below has been copy pasted from the discussion behind Original research as suggested by Jtneill

I'm wondering if anyone has the experience or ideas on how we might create a journal in Wikiversity to support formally peer reviewed work? I wrote up my own ideas on how I think a journal should look these days. Key points were:

 * 1) Anyone can submit and article, and that article is listed on the journal website, and anyone can review the article. There is a formal review process required to achieve featured article status however.
 * 2) The submission, review and communication around that process is openly documented.
 * 3) Once submitted, an article is archived and the link is to that version, but all articles are able to be edited, copied, adapted and otherwise reused beyond that.
 * 4) The primary data used in the formation of an article is also openly available as above, however methods of protecting privacy of subjects would need to devised, and if possible not in such a way so as to render the data inaccessible.

I think a journal inside Wikiversity would strengthen the process and policy of research in WV, and maybe even someday become a recognised journal with "impact factor"... --Leighblackall 21:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see no reason why WV shouldn't be looking to host journals, conference proceedings, and recorded presentations (within scope). Maybe this could be pursued further via Publishing original research? If you think so, this thread could be moved to the talk page there. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 23:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some old ideas along these lines: Wiki Journal and Portal:Wiki Scholar --JWSchmidt 23:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * So four questions JWS and JTN:
 * Can and how could the WV Journal be a place to publish, review and feature papers from any field? Should we have one journal with multiple topic streams; no streams just a random display based on what comes at the time (I like this way to start); multiple journals from the schools?
 * Can we use this MediaWiki or should we consider using an open journal system to front-of-house the journal from the WV Kitchen?
 * Will the WV community accept publishing on any and all subjects so long as they meet academic standards? Or are they limiting research to wiki related topics (eg, the Wiki Scholar portal you pointed to JWS seems to want to limit essays to wiki related topics?)
 * WP has a newspaper like publishing arm (JTN - what was the link again?) should we aim for something like that?
 * --Leighblackall 06:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Quick note: the WP newspaper is here. I like the idea of a journal, but I think we should aim for a bigger one in size, rather than a scattered sum of small journals. For this some limitation of scope is needed. But the web2.0, elearning and OERs seem a pretty wide topic also, and it is in line with WV scope. --Gbaor 09:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Those are good questions. "a place to publish, review" <-- I think that this moves us into new ground for Wikiversity where we need some kind of formal review process. "on any and all subjects" <-- I think it is fundamental to formal review that there be a community of experienced researchers/reviewers for the subject areas. If we do not have anyone with some expertise in a subject, can we perform a serious review of original work in that subject area? "Wiki Scholar portal" <-- please take all the old ideas as "trial balloons", I'm willing to work to develop a Wikiversity publishing experiment in any format. I have no pre-conceived idea of what will be possible...I just want to explore the possibilities. Some members of the Wikiversity community have from time-to-time discussed the idea of having something like a "community blog", and for a long time I thought that would be our first "off wiki" publishing experiment...it just never happened. I thought that was a nearly trivial goal, but we still failed to reach it! --JWSchmidt 13:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some thoughts: Maybe something like Research journal using w:Wikipedia:Signpost as a starting model. Submissions can in theory be in any academic field. To be peer-reviewed, the reviewers and review process will need to be at the same level as expected in respected academic journals. It seems to me the commercial journals have got pretty lazy but smart with reviews - they rely less on a standing panel and more on direct approaching specific experts for one-off reviews. The content of an overarching journal could then be transcluded later on into discipline-specific journals. A lot in journal publishing depends on the editorial team. -- Jtneill - Talk - c 14:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I would put any journal project on a page in the main namespace where participants can work on the project. Since this is new ground for the Wikiversity, there should also be a corresponding "about" page in the "Wikiversity:" namespace. --JWSchmidt 17:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


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User talk:Mrfunding

Welcome
Hello Mrfunding, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! --Remi 04:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mrfunding


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User:Irone2

Hello. My name is Michelle Walker, and I live in Troy, Alabama. I have a BS Nursing degree from Georgia Southern University with some Masters-level coursework (Patho/research/theory). I have experience in ICU, Med-Surg (certified) Intermediate Care, and Hospice(certified). I look forward to learning from you and sharing some of my own knowledge.

title: User:Irone2


text:
TEFL for Pre-Readers and Emerging Readers

This page is intended to gather teaching resources for use with children who live in a foreign country, and are learning English. (EFL - English as a foreign language).

Resources on this page should work with any ESL program and native speaking early readers.

The resources are to be organized as teaching subjects would be organized. For example:

Colors [[Media:Colors.pdf]]

Alphabet, initial sounds, and simple vocabulary: [[Media:A_b_activities.pdf]]

Numbers

Family

Within each of these categories are materials and lessons to teach these concepts covering reading, writing, listening, and speaking.


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User talk:Irone2

Welcome
Hello Irone2, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  10:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Irone2


text:
User talk:Skawannabe

Welcome
Hello Skawannabe, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  14:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Skawannabe


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User:Brakbudy

Gotta love that 17th century Three Kingdoms stuff :-)

title: User:Brakbudy


text:
User talk:Brakbudy

Welcome
Hello Brakbudy, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  18:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Brakbudy


text: File:Moon over ladd.jpg

title: File:Moon over ladd.jpg


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Template:PD1

fr:Modèle:Domaine public

title: Template:PD1


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User:Consta~enwikiversity

Hello, I'm Consta (from Constantin). I'm user of Greek Wikiversity. And I want to help to "spread of Wikiversity"!

cs:Uživatel:Consta de:Benutzer:Consta el:Χρήστης:Consta es:Usuario:Consta fr:Utilisateur:Consta it:Utente:Consta ja:利用者:Consta pt:Utilizador:Consta

title: User:Consta~enwikiversity


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The Holy Trinity

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God Almighty, Early in the morning, Our songs shall rise to thee, Holy, Holy, Holy, Merciful and mighty, God in three persons; Blessed Trinity!''

One of the core concepts of Christianity is based on the belief in the Holy Trinity. The above verse of the Reginald Heber hymn "Holy Holy Holy" explains the concept in its basic form: One God in three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarian doctrine is derived from various parts of the Bible, including both Old and New Testament scriptures. Of course, Judiasm would strongly disagree with this assertion, as it clings to no such doctrine and yet believes the Old Testament to be divinely inspired. Along those lines, Islam also believes that the Bible, in part, is divinely inspired and yet does not accept trinitarianism. In this course, the goal is to present you with the building blocks of knowledge in order to better understand this key Christian concept (however unexplainable it may seem,) in its own regard, and also in relation to the other Abrahamic religions.

Athanasian Creed
A major source of Christian Trinitarian belief can be greatly summarized in the words of the Athanasian Creed. Written sometime in the late 5th or early 6th Century A.D., it is named after St. Athanasius, a man influencially involved in the drafting of the Nicene Creed. The creed will be a strong reference point when examining Trinitarian Doctrine. It was prepared to assist the Church in combating two errors that undermined Bible teaching. One error denied that God's Son and the Holy Spirit are of one being or Godhead with the Father. The other error denied that Jesus Christ is true God and true man In one person. The Athanasian Creed continues to serve the Christian Church as a standard of the truth. It declares that whoever rejects the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of Christ is without the saving faith.

The Athanasian Creed
Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian faith.

Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.

Now this is the true Christian faith:

We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God,

without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.

For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct,

but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,

equal in glory and coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated;

the Father is infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite;

the Father is eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal;

yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal,

just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite,

but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.

In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty;

yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;

yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;

yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.

For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord,

so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords.

The Father is neither made nor created nor begotten of anyone.

The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone.

The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten,

but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior,

but all three persons are coequal and coeternal,

so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God

and one God worshiped as three persons.

Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.

It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe

that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh.

Now this is the true Christian faith:

We believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh,

equal to the Father as to his deity, less than the Father as to his humanity;

and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one,

one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God;

one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person;

for just as the rational soul and flesh are one human being, so God and man are one Christ.

He suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people will rise with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

but those who have done evil will go into eternal fire.

This is the true Christian faith.

Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved.

Course Lessons
This section will be updated periodically. It will contain the lessons on this subject.

Frequently Asked Questions
If at anytime you have a question, please feel free to edit this section and post the question here.

title: The Holy Trinity


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Christian studies

 * Division of Christian Studies
 * Department of Biblical Studies — includes topics like Ancient Hebrew and the Book of Genesis
 * Center of Biblical Languages
 * Center of Biblical Translation
 * Center of Biblical Survey
 * Department of Christian Apologetics — includes topics like a Defense of the Resurrection
 * Department of Historical Christian Theology — includes topics like the Ante-Nicene Fathers
 * Department of Practical Christian Theology
 * Department of Systematic Christian Theology
 * Department of Traditional Christian Theology — includes topics that are relevant primarily to particular traditions
 * Center for Roman Catholic Studies
 * Center for Reformation Studies

title: Christian studies


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User talk:Jjlightning

Welcome
Hello Jjlightning, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  21:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

two replies on your blog
Hello Juha, I have replied two times on your blog, but nothing is shown yet. Could you have a look ? Erkan Yilmaz uses the Wikiversity:Chat (try) 20:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Jjlightning


text:
User talk:Mats

Welcome
Hello Mats, and welcome to Wikiversity! If you need help, feel free to visit my talk page, or contact us and ask questions. After you leave a comment on a talk page, remember to sign and date; it helps everyone follow the threads of the discussion. The signature icon in the edit window makes it simple. To get started, you may
 * Take a guided tour and learn to edit;
 * Explore our learning projects;
 * Browse our portals, schools, and research activities;
 * Read and help develop our community policies；or
 * Chat with other Wikiversitans on #wikiversity-en.

And don't forget to explore Wikiversity with the links to your left. Be bold, and see you around Wikiversity! Erkan Yilmaz Wikiversity:Chat  21:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

A Swedish project box for you
Feel welcome to place the Swedish language topic box in your resources by typing into your pages. --McCormack 16:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have also added a common nav bar to your project. Hope you like it. If you have any questions, feel welcome to ask me about it. --McCormack 08:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. It is useful for navigating. --Mats 16:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mats


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Introduction to Swedish/Answers to exercises

Answers to exercises for Takeaways and ../Common phrases/
1.Please

2. Time

3. a little

4. Evening

5.day

1. Where does Johan live? -- var bor johan?

2. Johan lives in the USA. -- johan bor i USA.

3. Do you know where Sara comes from? -- vet du var sara kommer ifrån ?

4. Sara comes from Stockholm. sara kommer från stockholm.

5. Bye! See you! hejdå ! vi ses!

6. Hej, jag heter John. --- hi, my name is john.

7. Jag talar lite svenska. i speak alittle swedish.

8. Ursäkta mig, vet du vad klockan är? excuse me, do you know what time is it ?

9. Nej, jag vet inte. - no, i don't know.

10. Hej då! Ha det bra! --  bye, have a good time

Answers to exercises for ../Nouns and pronouns/
1. He usually says hello to Lisa. -- han oftast säger att lisa

2. She is a child. -- hon är ett barn

3. They are the youngest in the school. -- dem är den mindest i skol

4. What do you want to eat? -- vad vill du att åt

5. You are two families. -- ni är två familen

6. Man ska inte äta mat i bilen. -- but i would not eat food in the car

7. Glass är billigt. -- ice cream is cheap

8. Jag vill ha en glass. -- I want have one ice cream

9. Det är ett barn. -- it is a child

10. Jag ska besöka Sven. -- I would visit sven

Answers to exercises for ../Verb tenses/
1. They have walked another road. 2. Erik and Lina went to the pub.

3. There were many in the park.

4. She has been good.

5. I worked/was working before.

6. Per, du har tur!

7. Han har en annan bil.

8. Hon går ut nu.

9. En gång hade mamma tur/ Det var en gång då mamma hade tur.

10. Vad går det här ut på?

Answers to exercises for ../Adjectives/
1. Bilen är röd.

2. Hon är fånigare än jag.

3. Han är snyggast i klassen.

4. Det är en snäll hund.

5. Det stora huset är större än den lilla kyrkan.

6. The tall girl is the most beautiful in school.

7. Pay to the big boy in the corner!

8. He is more beautiful now than what he was then.

9. She is looking for a tall boy.

10. I suggest you should be satisfied with a car dealer.

Answers to exercises for ../Numbers and plurals/
1. Karin har tre mobiltelefoner.

2. Vi har många fiender!

3. Några vägar går till Uppsala.

4. Mina skräddares uppgifter är lätta.

5. Fem elever studerar fyra ämnen.

6. You are violating a rule!

7. Hans sits talking to two teachers.

8. A phone number has at least six digits.

9. A girl sits in front of the teacher's desk.

10. You have eight lessons today.

Answers to exercises for ../Spelling/
1. A ship with cherries comes from China.

2. Cecilia is a chess player.

3. Animals should not be cleaned with shampoo.

4. Giraffes and Zebras are African animals.

5. Around christmas one lights many candles.

6. Du kommer att tjäna på det!

7. Det finns en skjuten giraff i skjulet.

8. Venus är ljusstark men det är inte en stjärna!

9. Jag köpte två kjolar i en kiosk.

10. Många arter har hjärna.

Answers to exercises for ../Definite forms/
1. Älgarna vill ha frihet.

2. Den här pojken har många talanger.

3. Konstnären är Anders Zorn.

4. Alla partier håller med om beslutet.

5. Svenskarna äter sill både till jul och midsommar.

6. The king is the Swedish head of state.

7. The fans get autographs by the idol.

8. The fisherman fishes herring.

9. The criminals are at the police.

10. You need to fill in these papers.

Answers to exercises for ../Time and dates/
1. She has been waiting for half an hour.

2. The meeting will begin twenty past nine.

3. You have five weeks of holiday here.

4. She is in the seventh month.

5. She is five months old.

6. Januari var kallare än februari.

7. Svenska Akademin har arton stolar.

8. Du är skyldig mig tusen kronor.

9. De föddes nittonhundraåttiosju.

10. Pizzan är klar om en kvart.

Answers to exercises for ../Possessive forms/
1. My trousers are too big.

2. He has promissed to eat his hat.

3. The friends of the person having his aniversary have made a party for him.

4. The colours of the Swedish flag are yellow and blue.

5. The tops of the pyramides are seen from a long distance. 6. Bilens hjul är nya.

7. Hundägaren är kriminell.

8. Hans Holmer ledde Palmeutredningen.

9. Falu koppargruva grundades på sjuttonhundratalet.

10. Din protest är inte giltig.

Answers to exercises for ../Agreement of forms/
1. Han köpte två röda blommor.

2. Det smutsiga vattnet är inte hälsosamt.

3. Våra unga döttrar kallas Cissi och Gittan.

4. Flera modiga kossor gick utanför stängslet.

5. Bandets sångare har en ny flickvän.

6. My boyfriend is not allowed to kiss other girls.

7. Her old parents have three big dogs.

8. Their children are mean to our children.

9. The swimming teacher has tought many children to swim.

10. We only sell coatings of this colour.

Answers to exercises for ../Traveling/
1. The church is at a cross roads.

2. If you take left over there you will get into the city.

3. There is an underground between the Solna centre and Slussen.

4. The king lives at Drottningholm castle.

5. You don't need to run over the big road. There is actulally a subway for pedestrians.

6. Färjan mellan Helsingborg och Helsingör tar inte lång tid.

7. Konduktören frågade mig efter biljetter och eventuella rabattkort.

8. Du är på inrikesterminalen nu. Du måste gå till utrikes. Det är den där vägen.

9. Du måste stämpla din biljett även då du byter buss.

10. Jag är guide för den här gruppen. Jag bestämmer att vi tar tio minuters paus.


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User:Dale4EWB

Hi, Paige!

title: User:Dale4EWB


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User talk:Dale4EWB

Comments can go here:

title: User talk:Dale4EWB


text:
Weaving

Weaving is a craft in which two different pieces of yarn or string or interlaced to make fabric. The threads that run leangth wise are held under tension are called warp. The threads that run from side to side and aren't held under tension are called weft. Weaving is done on a loom, the main job of which is to hold the warp under tension and insert weft yarn in it.

Course Outline
1.Weaving Preparatory Process

2.Chronological Development of looms

3.Objectives & Classification of Shedding

4.Tappet Shedding

5.Dobby Shedding

6.Jacquard Shedding

7.Picking

8.Beating

9.Take up & Take off mechanism

10.Autometic Conventional Weaving

Blanket Weavers
In the image on the right, the weaver is feeding fabric yarn through the loom.

Thermals
Def. a "heavy, loosely woven fabric, usually large and woollen, used for warmth while sleeping or resting" is called a blanket.

The blanket on the left is a Navajo woman's fancy manta, wool, ca. 1850-1865, worn as a blanket or a wrap-around dress.

19th Century
"This blanket [in the image centered] was woven at the end of the "wearing blanket era," just as the railroad came into the Southwest in 1881. The heavier handspun yarns and synthetic dyes are typical of pieces made during the transition from blanket weaving to rug weaving."-Ann Hedlund, Arizona State Museum.

title: Weaving


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Wikiversity:Free Market Wikiversity

This is a more detailed presentation of the parallel distributed free market model proposal for Wikiversity proposed in | A Parallel Distributed Free Market Model Slehar 16:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Tenure
Academia is in a state of serious crisis due to the confluence of a number of pernicious factors. First, tenure: not awarded to the best teachers or most creative researchers, but to those with the most connections, who know how to "work the system". Tenured professors have no further incentive to make any effort at all, and it shows in their teaching, whenever they bother to do any. Tenure distorts the marketplace for professors, because it is such a prize when awarded, that armies of professors work for slave wages as adjunct professors, in the vain hope of attaining tenure one day. The very best teachers are rarely awarded tenure, because they are too busy really teaching!

Funding
Second: massive government funding, along with government meddling in everything done on campus at all levels. Instead of vision, reason, and common sense, everything is driven by bureaucratic rules and political correctness, especially that most central function, funding. But the government that disburses the funds, is not qualified to make judgments on how it is spent. So it appoints committees of distinguished professors to vote on the apportionment, which is thus decided on a committee basis. Interesting and challenging new ideas are routinely rejected for being too controversial (committees are a very poor tool for promoting novel and creative solutions) while well-connected professors crank out endless streams of worthless research because it has already attained the status of being accepted.

Solution: Wikiversity
The problems of academia are well known. The question is: what to do about them?

Answer: Abolish tenure. Cut out the middle man. Open a free market between teachers and students, so that the best professors reap the best rewards. Open the whole accreditation process to transparency and scrutiny from the outside. Establish a system of "schools of thought" headed by visionary founders, who use their own personal judgment in promoting students, professors, and research ideas in their departments. Some departments are bound to go astray, and waste money researching nonsense like mental telepathy and homeopathy. But their error will be revealed by a reluctance of reputable departments to be associated with those whacky ideas. It is the collective judgment of the reputable departments of Wikiversity that will banish nonsense beyond its walls. But competing theoretical philosophies which cannot be shown to be clearly nonsense, can co-exist under the large tent of Wikiversity, where they will post warnings about each other, and why they consider the alternative approach to be invalid. Let us have in Wikiversity a mirror-image replica of the schools of thought that exist in the theoretical world, and let us use the tried-and-tested methods of Wikipedia to fashion a mechanism of collective accreditation and validation.

Framework
Wikiversity must announce certain standards for WikiProfessorship. For example: PhD in related field; published papers; teaching experience; recommendations from other established WikiProfessors; whatever. Professors who meet those requirements may post a shingle on Wikipedia and advertise for students. Professors with higher credentials and renoun will associate with other similar professors and select a dean from amongst them, and form an official WikiDepartment.

Everything is based on a hierarchy of accreditation. Professors vouch for their students, and students for their professors. Deans vouch for the professors in their departments, and they vouch for the credibility of other related departments. Higher deans might vouch for whole schools, like the school of psychology, or of philosophy. There may be competing schools of thought within Wikiversity, like the school of Gestalt psychology, v.s. the school of Gibsonian philosophy, who would validate each other as a valid school of thought, while criticizing each other for the flaws in their world view. Schools will rise and fall with the times, all in the free marketplace of ideas.

Funding
By eliminating the middle man, and having the student pay directly to their professor, we eliminate the danger of bloated corrupt bureaucracy, governed by the Annointed Lords of the Academic Establishment who are currently in charge. The potential for fraud and abuse is very much diminished when it happens on an individualized basis. And when fraud or abuse is discovered, the student sues their professor, not Wikiversity. And when fraud or abuse are reported, it is up to the individual deans of departments to expel the fraudulent professors, or dis-associate from fraudulent departments, otherwise they risk tarnishing their own reputation.

Research
Research is funded by the same parallel distributed accreditation mechanism that governs teaching. Professors or departments that wish to engage in research post research pages that advertise the research project, methods, implications, budget, equipment, faculty, and so forth. The primary source of funding will be initially from private institutions and individuals, entities which are in a better position to make judgments than committees of experts appointed by the government. At first, there will be little role for government funding of Wikiversity. But when it becomes clear that this is the better model for apportionating funds for research, even the government will eventually come around to funding research on Wikiversity's terms.

title: Wikiversity:Free Market Wikiversity


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Wikiversity talk:Free Market Wikiversity

currently a page on meta links here. If you are going to move this page, please redirect the corresponding link on meta, presuming it still exists, in order to avoid confusion. --Remi 07:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Value of a Wikiversity degree
Wikiversity is not a degree-granting institution; it is not even an institution.--JohnBessatalk 19:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal Rejected
This proposal was rejected. See for discussion. Wikiversity is not a degree-granting institution, and this proposal does not "Set learning free.". -- Dave Braunschweig (discuss • contribs) 04:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)


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User:Jeroencl

I'm Jeroen Clemens, a language teacher in a secondary school in Almere. The Netherlands.Before this I was a school consultant for 10 years and a teacher trainer for 12 years. I wanted to go back to the real work, working with students. So I became a teacher again. But I'm very interested in ICT and learning. So one day a week I do research on Computer Supported Collaborative Learning. An example of what I do with my students you can find on: (in English), in Dutch :. Look at my CV / resume for more information.

title: User:Jeroencl


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Assistant teacher program/Forum/Problems of teachers

Lack of respect
Some teachers get less respect from a class than others. The problem is easily attributable to a teacher's demeanor but the problem can be alleviated with an assistant teacher program.

Teachers who have problems to silence a noisy class because they don't impress the young pupils enough can leave it to the assistant teachers to take care of the noisiest pupils. A possible result can be that the class never discovers that the teacher alone might have had probems to silence the class. The individual assistant teacher alone may be similarly unable to silence the class but the individual assistant teacher has a much smaller problem to solve.

A teacher may also be given more respect because the pupils more rarely experience the teacher asking them directly to be silent. The psychological effect can be that the pupils don't experience a situation as often where they, intentionally or unintentionally, misuse the attention of the teacher (e.g. as a mistaken goal).

Resentments between assistant teachers and pupils
In an ideal case this shouldn't happen because the assistant teachers aren't meant to allow it but the problem obviously isn't impossible. The result can be situations which are more difficult to control in spite of the assistant teachers because some assistant teachers contribute to interruptions instead of helping to avoid them.

A quick solution in the class room is to swap pupils (not assistant teachers, because that could undermine the authority of the assistant teacher), so that the difficult pupil moves to a different group, which is supervised by a different assistant teacher. A long-term solution can be to use the problem to teach assistant teachers and pupils to take care of their own problems and to find an agreement outside the class, possibly in a formal procedure organized by the assistant teachers or a class council.


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User:Broar

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title: User:Broar