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Talk:Satun/Listings

By car
From Bangkok, take Highway 4, past Prachuap Khiri Khan and Chumphon, and switch to Highway 41, past Nakhon Si Thammarat and Phatthalung. Take Highway 4 from Phatthalung to Songkhla’s Rattaphum district and turn right to follow Highway 406 toward Satun. The total distance is 973 km.

By plane
Take the Bangkok – Hat Yai flight. From Hat Yai, take a taxi or a bus to Satun for another 98 km. For more information, contact the Thai Airways International Public Company Limited (THAI) at Tel. 1566, 0 2280 0060, 0 2628 2000, or visit the website: www.thaiairways.com.

By train
Take the Bangkok – Yala, Bangkok – Hat Yai, or Bangkok – Su-ngai Kolok train to the Hat Yai Railway Station. Take a passenger van or a bus toward Satun for a distance of 98 km. For more information, contact the Hua Lamphong Railway Station at Tel. 1690, 0 2223 7010, 0 2220 4334, or visit the website: www.railway.co.th.

By bus
There is a daily air-conditioned bus service from Bangkok to Satun. The bus leaves the Southern Bus Terminal on Borommaratchachonnani Road. For more information, call Tel. 0 2435 5605, 0 2435 1199, 0 2434 7192, or visit the website: www.transport.co.th.

Amphoe Mueang Satun
Satun Central Mosque or Mambang Mosque (มัสยิดกลางจังหวัดสตูลหรือมัสยิดมำบัง) is located on the corner of Buri Wanit Road and Satun Thani Road in the heart of town. It is a place for religious services. The mosque is in a modern style of architecture. Its white building is decorated with glazed tiles, marble, and glass. The building is divided into two parts. The outer part features a verandah with a flight up to a dome-tipped tower. At the top, a view of the town of Satun can be seen. The inner part is shaped as a large hall for praying with an underground chamber. Satun National Museum – Kuden Mansion (พิพิธภัณฑสถานแห่งชาติสตูล – คฤหาสน์กูเด็น) is located on Satun Thani Road, Soi 5, opposite the Satun Provincial Land Office. Construction was started in 1898 and completed in 1916 by Phraya Phumnatphakdi or Tunku Baharutdin Bin Tammahong (formerly Kuden Binkumae), the ruler of Satun, during the reign of King Rama V. The mansion was intended to be a royal residence during a royal visit of King Rama V to the South. However, the king did not stay overnight here. The building was later used as an official residence and as the Satun Town Hall. Until WW II in around 1941, the building was occupied by Japanese soldiers as their command unit. It was also used as the Satun City Hall and other important official places. During 1997 – 2000, the Fine Arts Department renovated the Kuden Mansion into a western two-storey brick building. Curved doors and windows are in the European architectural style of art. Its Thai-styled hip-roof is covered with Spanish terra cotta roof tiles. Window panels consist of wooden shutters. The top of the pediment is adorned with a star-shaped vent in accordance with Islamic architecture. Inside, there are displays of history of Satun town and ways of life of the people of Satun, such as the sea dwellers of Ko Lipe, pot making, a room of the ruler of Satun’s residence, a room of the Thai Muslim culture depicting arts, culture, traditions, local lifestyles, etc. The museum is open on Wednesdays to Sundays from 9.00 a.m. – 4.00 p.m. It is closed on Mondays, Tuesdays, and public holidays. Admission fee is 30 Baht. Tel. 0 7472 3140. Khao To Phaya Wang Public Park (สวนสาธารณะเขาโต๊ะพญาวัง) is located in the Municipality of Mueang Satun on Khuha Prawet Road. This park offers a distinctive atmosphere unlike other parks. Because of its proximity to a limestone mountain, visitors would rather feel like sitting in a cave than an open-air park. Furthermore, there is a canal flowing by the park. Various plants make the park shady and suitable for recreation. Food shops are available in neighbouring areas. Wat Chanathip Chaloem (วัดชนาธิปเฉลิม) is located on Sunlakanukun Road in Tambon Phiman. Formerly, it was called Wat Mambang. This is the first Buddhist temple in the town of Satun. Built in 1882, the temple was renamed Wat Chanathip Chaloem in 1939. In fact, most of the people of Satun are Muslim. The temple has served as a centre of spirit of the Buddhists here for more than a century. The Ubosot (ordination hall) which was built in 1930 has distinctive features, unlike an ordination hall in general. It is a Thai-styled two-storey building. The first storey is a brick building used as a preaching hall. The second storey is a wooden building for religious practice by Buddhist monks. The ordination hall has a front porch with two side stairways. The posts of the window panels are carved in a traditional ‘Khrueathao’ or intertwined design. The temple has been declared an environmental preservation zone by the Environmental and Local Art Preservation Unit of Satun, the Cultural Centre of Satun, and Satun Witthaya School. For further details, call Tel. 0 7471 1996. Laem Tanyong Po and Hat Sai Yao (แหลมตันหยงโปและหาดทรายยาว) are on the mouth of Ao Satun. Take Highway 4051 ( the route to the Che Bilang Pier) for around 8 km, and from a junction toward Ban Tanyong Po, go on for around 10 km. Laem Tanyong Po is a cape jutting into the Andaman Sea where there is a fishing village. Its long sandy beach is fringed with coconut trees and fishermen’s houses. The fishermen’s way of life and seafood exposed to dry in the sun along the beach can be seen. Tarutao National Park (��ุทยานแห่งชาติตะรุเตา) It is the first marine national park of Thailand. The park is renowned for its history and natural beauty. It is located in the Andaman Sea, around 40 km from the town of Satun or 22 km off the shore from the Pak Bara Pier. To the north, the park borders the Muko Phetra National Park, and to the south, it borders the boundary waters between Malaysia and Thailand. The park covers an area of about 1,490 sq km, including islands and sea. Of the total 51 islands, there are 7 large islands; namely, Ko Tarutao, Ko Adang, Ko Rawi, Ko Lipe, Ko Klang, Ko Batuang, and Ko Bitsi. These islands have been formed into two major groups; namely, Muko Tarutao and Muko Adang – Rawi. The area was declared a national park on 19 April 1974, and ASEAN Heritage Parks and Reserves by UNESCO in 1982. The best time for a visit is during November to April. Attractions in the Tarutao National Park Ko Tarutao (เกาะตะรุเตา) It is the largest island of the park, covering an area of 152 sq km. Most of the areas are mountains with a moist evergreen forest, interesting species of plants and wildlife. Some part of the area is a mangrove forest. There are many bays, both small and large, with beautiful beaches. In the sea, various species of fish, including 4 endangered species of sea turtle, can be been. The word ‘Tarutao’ was gradually changed from ‘Talotrao’ in Malay, which means having many bays. Apart from an abundance of nature, Ko Tarutao has a memorable history. In 1936, the government had a policy for the Department of Corrections to set up a reformatory estate and a prison. Being a remote island having natural elements which pose obstacles against escape, Tarutao was, therefore, chosen for this purpose. An office building, houses for warders, a sleeping hall for prisoners, and an occupational training centre, were built at Ao Talo Wao and Ao Talo Udang. In 1938, the first group of 500 prisoners was sent to the island. The number of prisoners gradually increased to a maximum of 3,000. In 1939, the government sent 70 more political prisoners resulting from the Bowondet and Nai Sip rebels, to be detained at Ao Talo Udang. In 1941, World World II caused an impact on the Tarutao reformatory estate and made it be in short of food and medicine. As a result, a great number of prisoners died of illness. The warders and some prisoners decided to attack commercial ships sailing in the sea at the Straits of Melaka and rob goods from them. Therefore, commercial ships were scared to come by the area. In 1946, the British government who ruled Melaka at the time successfully suppressed the pirates of Tarutao by force upon permission from the Thai government. Later, the Department of Corrections announced the dissolution of the Tarutao reformatory estate. After that, the island was left deserted for 26 years. On 19 April 1974, the Royal Forest Department declared the establishment of the Tarutao National Park, the first-ever marine national park of Thailand. Attractions on Ko Tarutao

Ao Phante Melaka (อ่าวพันเตมะละกา) It is a bay with a clean long white beach. The headquarters of the Tarutao National Park is located here. There is a tourist service centre where an exhibition has been held about the nature and history of Ko Tarutao. This bay also offers a viewpoint for a beautiful sunset. From Ao Phante Melaka, visitors can walk up to a viewpoint on Pha To Bu (To Bu Cliff).

Ao Chak (อ่าวจาก) This small bay is next to Ao Phante Melaka.

Ao Mo Lae (อ่าวเมาะและ) It is 4 km from the park’s headquarters. The bay possesses a clean white sandy beach. There is a beautiful grove of coconut trees amidst tranquility, as well as bungalows suitable for recreation. Ao Son (อ่าว��น) It is 8 km from the park’s headquarters. This curve-shaped bay has sandy beaches which are interspersed with rocky beaches. It is also an egg-laying ground for sea turtles. A camping site is provided. A food and beverage service is available. There are small waterfalls: Namtok Ludu and Namtok Lopo. This is an ideal place for forest trekking and a nature study.

Ao Talo Wao (อ่าวตะโละวาว) It is a bay located to the east of the island, and provides another viewpoint for a beautiful sunrise. The Park’s Ranger Station ToTo 1 (Talo Wao) is situated here. It is a historical area where the reformatory estate for detention and critical prisoners was established. Nowadays, the park has imitation buildings of the past, such as houses of the warders, a sleeping hall of prisoners, an occupational training centre, a cemetery of 700 corpses, etc., constructed in the area.

Ao Talo Udang (อ่าวตะโละอุดัง) It is a bay located to the south of the island, 8 km from Ko Langkawi. The Park’s Ranger Station To To 2 (Talo Udang) is situated here. In the past, it was where political prisoners from the Bowondet and Nai Sip rebels were detained.

Namtok Ludu (น้ำตกลูดู) It is a small beautiful waterfall, around 3 km from Ao Son. There is a nature trail from Ao Son to Namtok Ludu.

Tham Chorakhe (ถ้ำจระเข้) It is a cave of 300 m in depth. Inside, beautiful stalactites and stalagmites can be found in different forms. To visit the cave, take a long-tailed boat for around 20 minutes. The boat cruises along Khlong Phante Melaka (Phante Melaka Canal) where numerous mangrove trees grow all along its banks. About an hour is needed to explore the inside of the cave. Visitors should bring their own torches. For more information, contact the Visitor Service Centre of the park.

Pha To Bu Viewpoint (จุดชมวิวผาโต๊ะบู) Pha To Bu is a cliff 60 m above sea level. A 20-minute-walk up to the viewpoint passes by a dry evergreen forest. The viewpoint is behind the park’s headquarters, overlooking the beach of Ao Phante Melaka, Ko Bulon, Ko Klang, Ko Khai, Ko Adang, Ko Rawi, and Muko Phetra. A beautiful scene of the sunset can also be seen from here.

Activities on Ko Tarutao Nature Trail (เส้นทางเดินศึกษาธรรมชาติ) From the park’s headquarters in the area of Ao Phante Melaka, a nature trail goes through an evergreen forest to Ao Talo Wao. This 12-kilometre path is flanked by dense woods and shady plants. Wild animals such as common wild pig, mouse deer, and many interesting species of bird, particularly hornbill, can be often seen along the way. Another nature trail is to Ao Chak, Ao Mo and Ao Son. The 8-kilometre walk takes about 2 hours to pass through a virgin rain forest, and is suitable for bird-watching; for example, hornbill and drongo. Cruising Route around the Island (เส้นทางล่องเรือรอบเกาะ) To study the nature as part of ecotourism, the park provides boats with guiding officers for a visit to the beaches. The one-day boat trip will take visitors to see birds at Ao Chak; the white sandy beach at Ao Son which is the longest one on Ko Tarutao; historical traces at Ao Talo Udang; and nature at Ao Talo Wao; dive on a coral reef, and visit a mangrove forest. For more information, contact the Visitor Service Centre on the island.

Accommodation of the Tarutao National Park In the area of the Tarutao National Park, guesthouses for visitors are available on Ko Tarutao and Ko Adang. For further details, contact the Department of National Park, Wildlife and Flora at Tel. 0 2562 0760, or the Visitor Service Centre of the Tarutao National Park at the Pak Bara Pier in Tambon Pak Nam, Amphoe La-ngu, Satun 91110, at Tel. 0 7478 3485, or the Tarutao National Park Ranger Station To To 1 (Ao Phante Melaka) on the island, at Tel. 0 7472 9002 – 3, or visit the website: www.dnp.go.th.

To Get to Tarutao National Park Pak Bara Pier It is located at the mouth of Khlong La-ngu in Tambon Pak Nam, Amphoe La-ngu, around 8 km from the district of La-ngu. It is the nearest pier to Ko Tarutao, a total distance of 22 km. Located not far from the pier is the Visitor Service Centre of the Tarutao National Park.

Satun – Pak Bara Pier From Amphoe Mueang Satun, visitors can travel to the Pak Bara Pier as follows:- By car: Take Highway 406 to Ban Chalung and turn left to Highway 416 (Satun – La-ngu). From Amphoe La-ngu, take Highway 4052 toward the Pak Bara Pier. By bus: A Satun – Pak Bara taxi departs from the taxi stand near the Bangkok Bank Satun Branch many times a day. In addition, there are mini-buses and passenger vans leaving town as well. Amphoe Hat Yai – Pak Bara Pier From Amphoe Hat Yai, visitors can travel to the Pak Bara Pier as follows:- By car: Take Highway 406 to Ban Chalung, Satun, and turn right to Highway 416 (Satun – La-ngu). From Amphoe La-ngu, take Highway 4052 toward the Pak Bara Pier. By bus: There is a bus service departing from the Hat Yai Bus Terminal during 6.10 a.m. – 4.50 p.m. The bus stops for passengers opposite the Hat Yai’s Clock Tower. The journey takes 2½ hours. For more information, contact the Satun Transport Company Limited at Tel. 0 7424 3797. By van: From the van stand in front of the Hat Yai Railway Station, a passenger van leaves every hour during 6.00 a.m. – 6.30 p.m. For more information, contact the Satun Transport Company Limited at Tel. 0 7424 5655.

Pak Bara Pier – Tarutao National Park During the Tarutao tourism season from November to April, a boat service is available to islands in the Tarutao National Park.

Pak Bara Pier – Tarutao A daily boat service is available. A return fare is 400 Baht per person.

 * From Pak Bara Pier			12.30 and 3.00 p.m.
 * From Tarutao				9.00 and 12.00 a.m.

Timetables of Service by Ferry Operators to Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe (The service is subject to change. Please check it with the operators before taking a trip.)

Adang Sea Tour

 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    10.30 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. and 3.00 p.m.
 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. and 5.00 p.m.

 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       9.00 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. and 12.30 p.m.
 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       10.00 a.m. to - and 12.30 p.m.

To Ko Tarutao, a single fare is 250 Baht, a return fare is 400 Baht.

To Ko Lipe, a single fare is 550 Baht, a return fare is 1,000 Baht.

Lipe Ferry and Speedboat Company Limited

 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    11.00 a.m. to 11.20 a.m. and 11.30 a.m. - 12.30 p.m.
 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    1.00 p.m. to 1.20 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. - 2.30 p.m.

 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       9.30 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. and 11.30 a.m.
 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       10.30 a.m. to 11.15 a.m. and 12.00 a.m.

To Ko Tarutao, a single fare is 300 Baht, a return fare is 500 Baht.

To Ko Lipe, a single fare is 650 Baht, a return fare is 1,200 Baht.

Tiger Line Travel Company Limited (Express Air-conditioned Ferry)

 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    11.30 a.m. to 12.00 a.m. and 1.30 p.m.
 * From Pak Bara to To Ko Tarutao and Ko Lipe    1.30 p.m. to 2.00 p.m. and 4.00 p.m.

 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       9.00 a.m. to 10.30 a.m. and 11.30 a.m.
 * From Ko Lipe to Ko Tarutao and Pak Bara       2.00 p.m. to 2.45 p.m. and 3.30 p.m.

To Ko Tarutao, a single fare is 300 Baht, a return fare is 500 Baht.

To Ko Lipe, a single fare is 650 Baht, a return fare is 1,100 Baht.

Distances from Piers to Islands

Pak Bara Pier
 * Ao Phante Melaka (Ko Tarutao)	               22 km
 * Ko Adang					80 km
 * Ko Lipe					82 km

Ko Tarutao
 * Muko Adang – Rawi			       40 km
 * Ko Lipe					40 km
 * Ko Khai			        	14.5 km

Ko Adang
 * Ko Lipe				 	2 km
 * Ko Hin Ngam				       2.5 km
 * Ko Khai					17 km

Ko Khai (เกาะไข่) It is an island to the west of Ko Tarutao. This small island is located between Ko Tarutao and Ko Adang, a 40-minute distance from Ko Tarutao. The famous feature of Ko Khai is its natural stone arch which is used as the symbol of the Tarutao National Park. Coral reefs are commonly found in the sea around Ko Khai. The park does not allow visitors to stay overnight on this island. A boat from Ko Tarutao to Ko Lipe will pass this island.

Muko Adang – Rawi (หมู่เกาะอาดัง – ราวี) These are the islands located 40 km to the southwest of Ko Tarutao, or 60 km from the town of Satun. Apart from Ko Adang and Ko Rawi of which the names are combined to give the islands their names, there are satellite islands, such as Ko Lipe, Ko Hin Ngam, Ko Yang, Ko Dong, Ko Hin Son, Ko Chabang, etc.

Ko Adang (เกาะอาดัง) “Adang” is changed from the word “Udang” in Malay, which means “prawn” – this area was once a rich sea of prawn. Ko Adang is the location of the Tarutao National Park Ranger Station To To 5 (Laem Son – Ko Adang). The island has an area of around 30 sq km, with a beautiful beach of fine sand. It is surrounded by small islands, such as Ko Lipe, Ko Dong, Ko Hin Ngam and Ko Yang, and is an ideal place for skin-diving. Geographically, it features high mountains covered with dense green forests. There is a waterfall called “Namtok Chon Salat” which has water flowing all year round.

On the island, there is also a viewpoint called “Pha Chado,” which was an observatory point for pirates in the past to attack commercial ships. Nowadays, it is a beautiful viewpoint which requires a 40-minute walk to reach the top. An open ground on Pha Chado or the Chado cliff overlooks lines of pine trees and the white sandy cape of Ko Adang and Ko Lipe. The viewpoint is also best for a sunrise

For an overnight stay on Ko Adang, contact the Marine National Park Division, Department of National Park, Wildlife and Flora, at Tel. 0 2562 0760; the Tarutao National Park at Tel. 0 7478 3485; the Tarutao National Park Ranger Station To To 5 (Laem Son – Ko Adang) at Tel. 0 7471 2409, 0 7472 8028; or visit the website: www.dnp.go.th.

Ko Rawi (เกาะราวี) It is located just one kilometre from Ko Adang. This island has an area of about 29 sq km, with a beautiful beach, crystal clear sea, and serenity. It is the location of the Tarutao National Park Ranger Station To To 6 (Hat Sai Khao). There is no accommodation on the island. Visitors usually come here to enjoy swimming and diving on the coral reef.

Ko Sipe or Ko Lipe (เกาะสิเป๊ะหรือเกาะหลีเป๊ะ) It is an island located 2 km to the south of Ko Adang. There is a community of Chao Le or sea dwellers here. Most families earn a living by fishing. During the period of three days and nights, around the middle of the sixth and eleventh lunar months, villagers of Chao Le origin will gather at Ko Lipe for a festive fair. Most importantly, the villagers will built a boat from Rakam wood and perform a ceremony to float the boat, according to their belief in the prediction of their fishing. The prominent features of Ko Lipe are natural coral reefs, beauty of a vast open bay, and a powdered-sand beach. Ao Phattaya is a beautiful bay in a curved shape with a white fine beach, which is within a 15-minute walking distance from Hat Chao Le or Chao Le Beach. Accommodation run by private operators is available on the beaches.

Ko Hin Ngam (เกาะหินงาม) It is a small island located to the southwest of Ko Adang. On the beach, there are smooth black stones in different shapes and with beautiful patterns. The stones will be bright and glossy when wet. On the island, there is a warning about the curse by Chaopho Tarutao or The Guardian Spirit of the island, “Anyone who dares to take a beautiful stone from this island would suffer all sorts of disasters.”

Ko Yang or Ko Kata (เกาะยางหรือเกาะกาต๊ะ) It is a small island not far from Ko Adang. Here, the sea is crystal clear and it is a source of beautiful hard corals, such as staghorn coral, leaf coral, and brain coral. The beach is full of fine sand.

Ko Chabang (เกาะจาบัง) It is a small island, around 20 minutes from Ko Adang. Deep down around the submerged rocks is the habitat of soft corals, sea anemones, and schools of colourful fish. Due to the sea depth at 15-30 feet, this place is suitable for both skin and scuba diving.

Muko Dong (หมู่เกาะดง) It is the islands on the farthest outer ring of Muko Adang – Rawi, around one hour from Ko Adang. There are coral reefs in both shallow and deep sea. Around Ko Dong are 4 – 5 satellite islands. One of them is Ko Hin Son, which prominently looks like superimposed rocks.

To get to Muko Adang – Rawi Pak Bara Pier – Adang – Lipe

A boat leaves the Pak Bara Pier at 12.30 p.m. bound for the Tarutao National Park first. Then, it goes further to Ko Adang and Ko Lipe. The boat resumes the trip back from Ko Lipe at 9.00 a.m. the next day. A return fare is 900 Baht per person.

Ko Tarutao – Ko Adang

Departing from Ko Tarutao at 12.30 p.m.

Leaving Ko Adang at 9.00 a.m.

The trip takes about 2 hours. A return fare is 500 Baht per person.

To visit islands in Muko Adang – Rawi, a long-tailed boat service is available at Ko Lipe. Boat hiring rates range from 1,200 – 1,500 Baht per day.

To Visit Ko Langkawi For a visit to Ko Langkawi in Malaysia, a boat service is available at the Tammalang Pier, 9 km from the town of Satun. Mostly, it offers a one day trip. For further details, contact the Thai Ferry Centre Company Limited at Tel. 0 7473 2510, Fax: 0 7473 2511, or the Satun Travel and Ferry Service Company Limited at Tel. 0 7471 1453, 0 7472 1960, 0 7473 2409, 0 7473 2410, Fax: 0 7472 1959.

Amphoe Khuan Don
Tham Lot Puyu (ถ้ำลอดปูยู) (“Puyu” refers to Java tilapia.) It is a cave in Khao Kayang (Mount Kayang) in Tambon Puyu, 15 km from the town of Satun. This passable cave is like the one in Ao Phang-nga. Khlong Tha Chin or Tha Chin Canal flows through the cave. Mangrove forests flank the canal throughout its course. Inside the cave, there are some stalactites and stalagmites. A nearby cave has beautiful stalactites and stalagmites, which serves as a home of bats. It takes two hours for a visit. To get there: Hire a long-tailed boat from the Tammalang Pier or the Satun Fishing Port of the Fish Marketing Organization, 9 km from the town of Satun on Highway 4183 at Km 5 – 6. Thale Ban National Park (อุทยานแห่งชาติทะเลบัน) It is located in Ban Wang Prachan, Tambon Wang Prachan, 40 km from the town of Satun. The park has an area of 122,500 rai, covering the Kupang Pulot and Hua Kraming National Forest Reserves and the Pa Khuan Bo Nam Puyu Forest Area in Amphoe Mueang Satun’s Tambon Ban Khuan and Tambon Puyu. It was declared a national park on 27 October, 1980. The word “Thale Ban” was changed from “Loet Roeban” in Malay, which refers to a subsiding sea or a sea which is a result of the subsidence of earth between Khao (Mount) Chin and Khao (Mount) Mot Daeng. Thale Ban is a large lake covering an area of around 63,305 rai. Most of the areas are a complex of mountains and dense woods. Wild animals found here include serow, elephant, tapir, common wild pig, monkey, gibbon, and Khiat Wak, or Ma Nam (Giant Asiatic toad or Malayan giant toad). The toad is considered as a symbol of Thale Ban. It looks like a combination of a frog and a toad, with a tail. But it sounds like a puppy. The lakeside, particularly in the rainy season, teems with this unique animal. For bird-watchers, this place offers an opportunity that should not be missed. There are various species of bird, such as whiskered tree swift, stripe-throated bulbul, chestnut-naped fork tail, woodpecker, etc.

Attractions in the Thale Ban National Park Bueang Thale Ban (บึงทะเลบัน) It is a freshwater lake located in the middle of a valley flanked by the Chin and the Wang Pra Ranges. The lake covers an area of around 125 rai. There is an abundance of freshwater fish and shellfish. Around the lake are Bakong plants (Hanguana malayana), which grow densely. The park provides lakeside pavilions for visitors’ recreation, as well as a wooden path around the lake. Namtok Ya Roi (น้ำตกยาโรย) It originates from a source in the Hua Kraming Forest. The waterfall has nine tiers and visitors can swim in a pool at each tier. It is favourite among local visitors. To get there: Follow Highway 4184 (Khuan Sato – Wang Prachan) from Km 14 – 15 for around 6 km, and go on for another 700 m on a lane off the main road.

Namtok Ton Plio (น้ำตกโตนปลิว) It originates from Mount Chin. This large and beautiful multi-tiered waterfall flows from a high cliff. To get there: Take Highway 4184 (Khuan Sato – Wang Prachan) from Km 9 – 10 or the park’s headquarters for around 10 km, and follow a dirt lane off the main road for another 3 km. The park offers houses and tents for visitors. For further details, contact the Thale Ban National Park, Amphoe Khuan Don, Satun 91160, at Tel. 0 7472 2736 – 7. To get to the Thale Ban National Park: Take Highway 406 for 80 km. See a direction sign on the left at the Khuan Don T-junction and turn left to Highway 4184 for another 20 km. Alternatively, get on a bus (Hat Yai – Satun) at the Hat Yai’s Clock Tower and get off at the Khuan Sato T-junction. Take a further trip by mini-bus (Satun – Wang Prachan). One bus leaves every hour. A fare is 20 Baht per person. Thai – Malaysian Border Zone or Wang Prachan Checkpoint (เขตชายแดนไทย – มาเลเซียหรือด่านวังประจัน). It is just 2 km from the park’s headquarters. Located here is the Thale Ban National Park Ranger Station. Taking a further trip of around 20 km, visitors will arrive at Padang Besar, the marketplace where goods are available at inexpensive prices. Visitors can also visit Kangar, the capital of Perlis, which is only 30 km away. The checkpoint is open from 7.00 a.m. – 6.00 p.m. Here, a morning marketplace will be held on Saturdays and Sundays. For more information, call Tel. 0 7472 2730 – 1.

To get there: From the town of Satun, take Highway 406 for 19 km and turn right at Km 61 – 62 to Highway 4184 for 20 km. Alternatively, get on a mini-bus (Satun – Wang Prachan) in front of the Laem Thong Hotel, or take a Satun – Khet Daen (border zone) bus at the Khuan Sato T-junction; the bus leaves every hour and the fare is 30 Baht per person.

Amphoe Khuan Kalong
Namtok Thara Sawan Forest Park (วนอุทยานน้ำตกธาราสวรรค์) It is located in the Pa Khao Ma Mai Yok National Forest Reserve. The area was declared a forest park by the Royal Forest Department on 23 July, 1996. Regular rain causes an abundant evergreen forest here. The park possesses a beautiful waterfall with 3 tiers; namely Namtok Ton Tam, Namtok Sai Fon, and Namtok Soi Dao. The forest park is 12 km from the Khuan Kalong District Office. Five houses are on offer with a camping site. For further details, contact the Protected Area Regional Office 20 (Songkhla) at Tel. 0 7431 1020. To get there: From the Nikhom T-junction, pass the Khuan Kalong District Office and turn into Soi 10 to follow Highway 416, and change to Highway 4137. See a direction sign indicating another 12 km before reaching the forest park. Namtok Panan (น้ำตกปาหนัน) It is located in Tambon Thung Nui, 39 km from the town of Satun. The waterfall originates from Mount Kaming. The surrounding nature is still intact. It has water flowing all year round. A power generating dam of a medium scale has been built in the waterfall area.

Amphoe La-ngu
La-ngu Local Museam (พิพิธภัณฑ์พื้นบ้านละงู) It is located opposite Wat Athon Rangsarit on the La-ngu – Chalung Road. The museum building has 2 storeys. On the ground floor, there are local handicrafts and sweets for sale. A museum on the upper floor displays brassware, earthenware, silverware, irons, banknotes, coins, ceramics, glassware, audio and musical instruments, wickerwork, watches, and fans, which are the private collection of Mr. Chaiwat Saikun. The museum is open daily from 10.00 a.m. – 4.30 p.m, except for Mondays and Tuesdays. Contact can be made at Tel. 0 7478 1338, 0 7478 1382. Admission fee is 40 Baht.

Muko Phetra National Park (อุทยานแห่งชาติหมู่เกาะเภตรา) It is located on the western coast in the South of Thailand, near the Straits of Melaka in the Andaman Sea. Ko Phetra is a junk-shaped island. The park covers an area along the coastal line in Amphoe La-ngu’s Tambon Pak Nam and Amphoe Thung Wa’s Tambon Khon Khlan in Satun and Amphoe Palian’s Tambon Sukon in Trang. Most of the areas are high and steep mountains with valley plains and beaches. The total area both on land and in the sea is about 494.38 sq km. It was declared a national park on 31 December, 1984. The national park has forests, mountains, wildlife, and colourful coral reefs. It is comprised of large and small main islands, such as Ko Phetra, Ko Lidi, Ko Bulon, Ko Khao Yai, Ko La Lo Baen Tae, Ko Lao Liang, and Ko Prao Ma. Attractions in the Muko Phetra National Park

Ao Nun (อ่าวนุ่น) It is a bay where the park’s headquarters is located. Ao Nun lies on a vast bay curve in serenity. There is a visitor service centre and houses on offer. Hat Rawai (หาดราไว) It is a beach located at Mu 2 and 4 in Tambon Khon Khlan, Amphoe Thung Wa, around 26 km from the Thung Wa District Office. Take a turn at the Ban Wang Tong Junction. The beach is fringed with lines of pine trees. The landscape here is suitable for camping. Ko Lidi Lek (เกาะลิดีเล็ก) It is an island located around 5 km from the park’s headquarters, or 7 km from the Pak Bara Pier. The Park’s Ranger Station is located here. A white sandy beach lies on the island. The crystal clear sea is suitable for swimming. A virgin mangrove forest grows at the island’s side where various aquatic animals inhabit. Camping visitors are required to bring their own tents and meals since food shops are not available. Ko Lidi Yai, next to Ko Lidi Lek, is an island which is allowed concession for nests of the swifts. To hire a boat, contact the park’s headquarters. Rental fee is about 700 Baht per boat. Ko Bulon (เกาะบุโหลน) It is an island located around 22 km from the Pak Bara Pier. The island has a white sandy beach and beautiful crystal clear sea suitable for swimming. There are scattered spots for snorkeling and scuba diving, such as Ko Ayam and Ko Hin Khao. At night, hermit crabs and ghost crabs can be seen on the beach. This is also a viewpoint for an impressive sunset.

To get to the Muko Phetra National Park from the Town of Satun The park’s headquarters is 56 km from the town of Satun and located at the vast and open bay called “Ao Nun,” around 3 km before the Pak Bara Pier. Take Highway 416 and turn left at Km 6 – 7 for another 1.4 km. The park is 7 km from Amphoe La-ngu. To visit other islands in the park area, visitors can hire a boat at the Pak Bara Pier. To visit Ko Bulon, a ferry leaves the Pak Bara Pier everyday at 1.30 and 3.30 p.m., and returns from the island the next day at 9.00 and 12.00 a.m. A return trip costs 300 Baht per person. There is no ferryboat to Ko Lidi. Visitors are required to use a charter boat service available at the Pak Bara Pier. The rental boat costs 800 – 1,600 Baht per day. For more information, contact the Tourism Business Operators Club of the Pak Bara Pier at Tel. 0 7478 3368, 08 1278 1930, 0 7478 3338. In the park area, houses and a camping site are on offer. For further details, contact the Muko Phetra National Park Headquarters (Ao Nun), 298 Mu 4, Tambon Pak Nam, Amphoe La-ngu, Satun 91110, or call Tel. 0 7478 3074. (Reservation can be made in person or by prior written notice.) Namtok Wang Sai Thong (น้ำตกวังสายทอง) It is a waterfall on Ro Pho Cho Road (Thung Nang Kaeo – Wang Sai Thong) or Highway 4137. It is accessible by 2 routes. From Amphoe La-ngu, it is around 6 km from the Ban Kota T-junction off the Satun – La-ngu Road in Tambon Kamphaeng. Another route from the Saphan Wa T-junction in Tambon Pa Kae Bo Hin, Amphoe Thung Wa, it is around 19 km. The beauty of this waterfall is the limestone in the shape of multi-petalled lotus flowers settling on the bottom of the pools at each of its tiers. It is shady around the waterfall area, which makes it suitable for recreation.

Amphoe Thung Wa
Namtok Than Plio (น้ำตกธารปลิว) It is a waterfall located at Mu 7, Tambon Thung Wa, 14 km from the Thung Wa District Office. It originates from Mount Lung Khroe in the provincial areas of Satun and Trang. This two-tiered waterfall has a pool of 40 m wide and 50 m long at its base. The surrounding area is shady with various plants. To get there: Follow the Thung Wa – Palian Road, take a turn at Km 35 toward Ban Thung Yao Nui, Tambon Thung Wa, and go further for around 8 km.

Festivals
International Kite Festival Held every year around February at the Satun Airport, around 4 km before the town of Satun. Tarutao – Adang Fishing Club Fair Held every year around March.

Satun Marine Tourism Festival Held around December to mark the start of the marine tourism season in Satun. Visitors can visit the Tarutao National Park during November to April.

Boat Floating Tradition To be observed by Chao Le or sea dwellers at Ko Lipe in Satun around the middle of the sixth and eleventh lunar months of every year. It is intended to dispel bad luck, as well as predict their fishing.

Itinerary
Examples of Tour Programmes

Programme I Tourism on the Waters of Satun (Three days, two nights)

Day I
 * 9.30 a.m.
 * Arrive at the Pak Bara Pier.
 * Take a boat to Muko Tarutao, the historical land of the Andaman Sea.

 * 11.00 a.m.
 * Arrive at Muko Tarutao (Ao Phante Melaka).
 * See the beauty of the white sandy beach and crystal clear sea.
 * 2.00 p.m.
 * Learn about the historical land.
 * 3.00 p.m.
 * Proceed to Ao Talo Wao, the former prison venue.
 * Visit the site of the prison notorious for its cruelty.
 * 5.00 p.m.
 * Return to Ao Phante Melaka.
 * At leisure.

Day II Day III
 * 5.00 a.m.
 * Walk up to Pha To Bu for beautiful views over Ko Tarutao.
 * Be packed for a further trip to Ko Lipe.
 * 11.30 a.m.
 * On the way to Ko Lipe, visit Ko Khai, the symbol of Satun and the Tarutao National Park.
 * Arrive at Ko Lipe and check in (Many resorts are on offer.)
 * 2.30 p.m.
 * Go to Ko Yang for a dive among the coral reefs.
 * Visit Ko Hin Ngam and view the beauty of stones created by nature.
 * Return to Ko Lipe.
 * 7.30 p.m.
 * Dinner by the beach.
 * 8.00 p.m.
 * Enjoy a beautiful ambience at nighttime and serenity of Ko Lipe.
 * 6.00 a.m.
 * Get up to enjoy the morning freshness.
 * 7.00 a.m.
 * Breakfast on the island.
 * 8.00 a.m.
 * Greet and bid farewell to the Chao Le (sea dwellers) inhabiting the island.
 * 9.00 a.m.
 * Resume the journey back.

Programme II Cave and Border Market Tour (Two days, one night)

Day I
 * 6.00 a.m.
 * Breakfast in the Satun people’s style: tea, coffee, Roti bread, etc.
 * 7.30 a.m.
 * Proceed to Tham Phu Pha Phet (60 km).
 * See the grandeur of the cave and the beauty of the inner stalactites and stalagmites.
 * 1.00 p.m.
 * Leave for Tham Chet Khot in King Amphoe Manang.
 * Take a kayak along the curves inside the cave.
 * 4.30 p.m.
 * Go further to Namtok Wang Sai Thong in Amphoe La-ngu.
 * Return to the accommodation in the town of Satun.

Day II
 * 6.00 a.m.
 * Breakfast (local food).

 * 7.00 a.m.
 * Leave for the Thai – Malaysian Border Market at the Wang Prachan Checkpoint. (50 km from town.)
 * See and purchase goods and products at the market.
 * 10.30 a.m.
 * Proceed to the Thale Ban National Park (2 km from the border market.)
 * Admire the beauty of the natural lake and enjoy seeing wild animals inhabiting the park.
 * 12.00 a.m.
 * Lunch at the park.
 * Resume the journey back.

Amphoe Mueang Satun

 * B.B. Garden Inn (บีบี การ์เด้นส์ อินน์) 326 Yontrakankamthon Road (Tel: 0 74 730808-9), 54 rooms: 160 baht
 * Bubble Guesthouse (บับเบิ้ล เกสท��เฮ้าส์) 50 Yatrasawat Road (Tel: 0 74 72 2187), 25 rooms: 350 baht
 * My House Bungalow (บังกะโล มายเฮ้าส์) 111 Yontrakankamthon Road (Tel: 0 74 721700, 721748), 16 rooms: 300-380 baht
 * Wang Mai (วังใหม่) 43 Satun Thani Road (Tel: 0 74 711611, 0 7471 1607-8, 0 7473 2246-7), 108 rooms: 550-1,300 baht
 * Royal Guesthouse (รอยัล เกสท์เฮ้าส์) 447/7 Yontrakankamthon Road (Tel: 0 74 773153), 16 rooms: 390 baht
 * Satun Thani (สตูลธานี) 90 Satun Thani Road (Tel: 0 74 711010, 712309), 53 rooms: 210-470 baht
 * Sin Kiat Thani (สินเกียรติธานี) 50 Buriwanit Road (0 74 721055-8 Fax: 0 7472 1059), 50 rooms: 600 baht
 * Rian Thong (เหรียญทอง) 4-6 Samanpradit Road (Tel: 0 74 711036), 20 rooms:from 160 baht up

Tarutao National Park

 * Laen Son 10 rooms: 280 baht
 * Ao Phante Malaka 2 houses 750-1,000 baht 10 rooms: 320 baht
 * Ao Son Tent: 100 baht
 * Call Bangkok’s National Park Division at Tel: 0 2579 5734, 0 2579 7223 or Tarutao National Park at Tel: 0 7472 9022, 0 7478 1285

Amphoe Langu (around Pak Para Pier)

 * Ko Klang Garden View (เกาะกลาง การ์เด้นท์ วิว เกสท์เฮ้าส์) Tel: 0 74 783273, 10 bungalows: 250 baht
 * Krachom Sai (กระโจมทราย) Tel: 0 74 781231, 10 bungalows: 150 baht
 * Sai Kaeo Resort (ทรายแก้ว รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 74 781233 8 bungalows: 250-350 baht
 * Marina (มารีน่า) Tel: 0 74 781431,16 bungalows: 150-250 baht
 * Suan Son (สวนสน) Tel: 0 74 78 1350, 10 bungalows: 200-400 baht
 * Bulon Island เกาะบุโหลน
 * Bulon Resort (บุโหลน รีสอร์ท) Tel: 01-990-7901, 35 bungalows: 200-250 baht
 * Phangka Bay Resort (พังกา เบย์ รีสอร์ท) ResevationOffice in Satun Town: 19/6 Satun Thani Road (Tel: 01-990-2237), 30 rooms: 200-300 baht
 * Pan Sand Resort (แพนแซน รีสอร์ท) Office at Pak Bara Tel: 0 7521 8035, 0 7521 9513), 38 rooms: 200-1,250 baht, There are tents for rent.
 * Li Pe Island เกาะหลีเป๊ะ
 * Li Pe Resort (หลีเป๊ะ รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 74 71 2181, 0 7472 3804, 70 bungalows: 300-1,200 baht
 * Chao Le Resort (ชาวเล รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 74 729201, 0 7473 2473, 55 bungalows: 250-500 baht
 * Daya Resort (ดายา รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 74 724013, 23 bungalows: 200-350 baht, There are tents for rent.
 * Andaman Resort (อันดามัน รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 74 729200, 711313, 30 rooms: 250-350 baht
 * Pattaya 2 Resort (พัทยา 2 รีสอร์ท) Tel: 0 7472 4013, 20 rooms: 200-500 baht
 * Phon Resort (พร รีสอร์ท) 15 rooms: 250-300 baht, There are tents for rent.

Amphoe Mueang Satun

 * Time (ไทม์) 43/1-2 Satun Thani Road, Tel: 0 74 712286
 * Mukda (มุกดา) 154 Khuha Prawet Road, Tel: 0 74 712390
 * Ban Lanna (บ้านลานนา) 38 Satun Thani, Tel: 0 74 722022
 * Nam Thip (น้ำทิพย์) 93 Soi 2, Samantapradit Road, Tel: 0 74 711242
 * Nong Ni (น้องณี) 65 Rueangrit Charun Road, Tel: 0 74 712277
 * Nong Beer (น้องเบียร์) Yontrakankamthon Road, Tel: 0 74 722490
 * Nok Nam (นกน้ำ) 41 Mu 3 Chalung-La-ngu Road, Tambon Khuan Pho, Tel: 0 74 01-957-4096
 * Saeng Thian (แสงเทียน) 2 Khuhaprawet Road, Tel: 0 74 711325, 0 7471 2210
 * Sanambin Resort (สนามบิน รีสอร์ท) Yontrakankamthon Road Tel: 0 74 711990
 * Ruen Mai (เรือนไม้) 128/6 Soi 17, Satun Thani Road, Tel: 0 74 711199

Amphoe La-ngu อำเภอละงู

 * Mali Seafood (มาลี ซีฟู้ด) 389 Mu 3 Tambon Pak Nam, Tel: 0 74 781078

--(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:20, 5 February 2010 (EST)

title: Talk:Satun/Listings


text:
Talk:Sauble Beach

VFD discussion
Another beach — (WT-en) NJR_ZATalk  Monday,  29, 2024 SAST
 * Redirect for now; see previous comment. The pre-banner text was pure touting and has no business here.  It does, however, establish that there's lodging on/near this particular beach, so it may pass the you-can-sleep-there test. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:19, 6 January 2008 (EST)

 * Keep & redirect to Bruce Peninsula ~ 58.8.213.154 14:00, 9 January 2008 (EST)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Sauble Beach


text:
Talk:Saudi Arabia

For future reference Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Saudi Arabia/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

Humour
Hey pal, pretty sure comedy is illegal in Saudi Arabia and why did you remove the stuff about Chevy Chase being denied access into the country when this is well known?

Stay Safe
Please note that, while the offences and sentences listed in this section are technically correct to the best of my knowledge, the harshest sentences are very seldom applied, with jail and lashes being the preferred way to deal with most violations of the law.

I have also removed a line claiming that Jews are not allowed in the country, as this is false, both from an official and a practical point of view. Officially, a number of statements have been issued over the years by the authorities to the effect that there is no law preventing Jews entering the country. In practical terms, openly professing a religion other than Islam is bound to attract unwelcome attention, and it is generally advisable to keep one's religious adscription to oneself. Having said that, and anecdotically, this contributor has intimated his semitic origins to several Saudi acquaintances during time spent in the Kingdom and was surprised by the warm and respectful response received.

 * To remove that information is misleading; the Saudi government has publically stated that Jews are not welcome in the kingdom no matter what their views on Israel or zionism. Do a search on google and you will find many, many news stories affirming this fact.209.213.214.242

 * Yet there are Jews in Saudi Arabia. As with many things in Saudi, just because somebody somewhere says something doesn't make it true... (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:36, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

---

All the facts in here are real, but unfortunaley you are exagerrating in all of them. And you might have to know that Saudi Arabia is recently changing everyday and what you might say today could be wrong tomorrow. I'm not asking you to take facts from me as a Saudi but take from honest people who had the experience of living in Saudi.

NO one is being excuted today for talking about the royal family, I've seen many western women walking in public places without wearing Abaya or so, I have a bible and other religous books and I have never been asked about them !!

Please just make sure that what you are saying is today not in the past.

 * http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/saudiban.html 24.226.20.87 22:41, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

Adultery
The Stay Safe section says "Adultery is punishable by death if you are married, and lashes if not."

The definition of Adultery states that at least one of the partners having sex is married. So what does "if not" refer to? Does it mean that if one of the two involved in Adultery is unmarried, that person will receive lashes? Or was the author of that line unaware of the exact definition and meant that sex between two unmarried people is punishable by lashes. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:39, 30 December 2006 (EST)

 * I noticed that as well, doesn't make sense. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 70.240.185.8 (talk • contribs)

 * I thought it was pretty obvious that it meant you as the traveler to the country of Saudi Arabia, being unmarried, and having an affair with a married person in Saudi Arabia, would result in you receiving lashes. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 71.166.150.166 (talk • contribs)

 * Your definition of adultry is very very different from the Islamic definition.

 * Anyways, as of the page itself, it is clearly aimed at nonmuslim intending to visit (for which reason is far beyond me). It's rude then that the tone taken is one of saying that there is no fun in the kingdom.  To a nomuslim, sure.  but I don't know why you'd be there in the first place.  —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 76.227.101.141 (talk • contribs)

 * Wikivoyage isn't aimed at anybody in particular, but it necessarily reflects those who have contributed to the guide. If you have different perspectives, or can add information for visiting Muslims, please plunge forward.  --(WT-en) inas 23:56, 20 February 2010 (EST)

Stay safe again
I removed the suggestion that non-essential travel should be avoided... this is baseless, as far as I know. – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 00:43, 24 August 2007 (EDT) Some Confusion

Seems as if this article was written in the context of what it was like in the middle ages.

 * Are you saying something is inaccurate? Saudi Arabia itself is designed as a replica of the Middle Ages. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:22, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Religion
(it was recently stated by an Arab Satellite media that over 2 million Muslim citizens converted to Christianity discreetly. This makes over 7.4% of the citizens being Christians.)

this is absolutely not true ! saudi citizens not allowed to change Religion ! i am saudi and some of my frined are atheist but they CAN'T announce that for public.

 * Hmm, when did that sneak in there? I've removed it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:30, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

strictly fobiddin imagery of people and animals
I know from a strict Wahhabi belief that not only that forbid imagery of Muhammad, but also imagery of people and animals. As such, I added that in there. And can anyone confirm that Pokemon and video games (or the Wii) are banned in Saudi Arabia due the implication of one of the Saudi beliefs?--(WT-en) Dark Paladin X 11:51, 15 December 2008 (EST)

 * See, this is why you shouldn't write about places you haven't personally been to...

 * Just because some mullah says something doesn't mean it's against the law, much less that said law is enforced. There is no prohibition against imagery of people or animals, and this is a common sight in the Kingdom.  The super-ultra-conservative town of Buraydah is known for spraypainting over faces, but even there it's just local yahoos, not government policy, and other Saudis laugh at them.  Video games and Pokemon goods are very widely available, there are entire shops devoted to them. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:11, 15 December 2008 (EST)

 * And as for "travelers wanting to show pictures of Muhammed", tell me, where on earth would a traveler find such a picture, and why on earth would they "want" to show it off? (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:33, 15 December 2008 (EST)

Are you...
Shouldn't one say "Anta Muslim" instead of "Inta..."? Is it the saudi dialect? And why would it scare anyone away?

few statements revising and such
While Internet in Saudi Arabia is cordoned off by a filter, it aims primarily at pornography, non-Islamic religious and domestic political sites in Arabic, and (from the traveller's point of view) is nowhere near as strict as, say, China's.

I don't think we should be comparing the censorship in Saudi Arabia to China's. There are some people who think that the Saudi censors are more strict than China's and I'm one of them.

 * Yes, you think all sorts of things, most of which are wrong. Most Wikivoyagers write things based on actual experience.

 * So: based on my half-dozen visits to the Kingdom and a whole lotta surfin' while there, Saudi Arabia's internet filter, which is nowhere near as strict as China's. China blocks all sorts of semi-random sites because of political content (CNN, BBC, Wikipedia, Wordpress, Livejournal, Flickr, etc etc); Saudi Arabia only blocks porn and some Arabic-language dissidents. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:54, 19 January 2009 (EST)

The fun doesn't end when you get the visa, since visas do not state their exact expiry date.

This statement is a bit on a sarcastic tone. A few rewording might remove on sarcasm.

 * No, it's not sarcastic. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:54, 19 January 2009 (EST)

While first-timers in Saudi Arabia are often regaled with tales of beheadings, amputations and whippings, the full harshness of Saudi law is reserved for true criminals like drug smugglers.

Don't they reserve the harsh penalties like death penalty not only for criminals, but also committing apostasy, witchcraft, idolatry, and blasphemy, even doing such is unintentional?

 * How do you unintentionally commit any of those? (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:54, 19 January 2009 (EST)

And speaking of which, I know the Saudis punish homosexuality by deaths, but should we tell gays and lesbians not to travel to Saudi Arabia whatsoever, since I'm afraid they may use death penalty on gays and lesbians if the Saudis find out that a foreign traveler is gay.

Sorry for asking these kinds of questions, but I feel stupid for asking these.--(WT-en) Dark Paladin X 17:01, 18 January 2009 (EST)

 * The most likely outcome of Saudis finding out that a visitor is gay is getting hit on by lots of horny local men. According to Wikipedia, even convictions for homosexuality (which require four witnesses etc etc) do not result in the death penalty, unless rape/pedophilia is involved.  (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:54, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Regions

I'm just checking to make sure I got the regional boundaries correct before moving this map into the article. I used the administrative province boundaries with only one exception—I cut off the southernmost strip of coastline from Hejaz and added it to Asir. I noticed that these divisions place Madain Saleh in Hejaz, not in the North. So, comments? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 08:41, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Looks good to me, but you've mispelled "Hejaz" as "Hezaz" on the map. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:10, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

 * I wonder if I've ever managed to make a map that didn't have at least one of those silly errors. Anyway, fixed. --76.197.167.146 01:26, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

just some changes to the highways like now there is a high way from Hail to Aljouff and there is new high way connecting Tabouk to Al-ula. and you may need to check more where transportation connections are expanding all over the king dom. I am a licened Tour Operator in Saudi and if any one want to know any thing related to tourism in Saudi please do not hesitate to send your inquireis to meteb@alsarhtours.com, where we are uthorised to issue tourist visa and we arrange weekend programs for expacts in saudi such as ( desert safari, desert camping, desert wonders, diving programs, cultural programs , hunting programs, city tours, and more )

 * Please plunge forward and update highways etc, but don't tout. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:12, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

Knights of Columbus
"Catholic visitors must not be members of the Knights of Columbus"

Is there a source for this? Just had a quick look on the internet - just for personal curiosity - but to no avail. (WT-en) Phonemonkey 17:32, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Seconded, anyone have a cite? I have never heard of such a thing in all my time in the Kingdom. While certainly the KSA is the land of rumor, this article is full of wild claims. The lowest rate of crime in the world? Says who? No Jews? Zero, zilch, nada? Frankly you can really see why Wikipedia went to requiring cites. (WT-en) Paul in Saudi 22:24, 4 November 2009 (EST)

 * While adding footnotes to a travel guide would be silly, asking on the talk page for citations to back up dubious claims is precisely the way to go on Wikivoyage. Since no one has defended the statement, I recommend you plunge forward and remove it! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:06, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Women Travellers
So, as a woman, I am subject to scrutiny for being single, can't drive or ride a bike, could be castigated for being driven by a taxi driver, have to have special permission to check into a hotel but must not dare to use the facilities, must wear a headscarf even though I am not a Muslim, must avoid cafes and restaurants, may be accosted by police and am subject to heavy punishments if I dare to drink alcohol?

Yes, hmm. Okay, Saudi Arabia, you lovely country, that's you off my travel list. :)

 * Correct conclusion, especially since they do not issue tourist visas anyway. Some of the details are wrong, though. Head scarves are not always required, and some cafes are open to women. By striking it off your list, you do miss out on some interesting architecture and scenery, and a culture with an interesting history.

 * For whatever it is worth, my (now ex) wife coped with Saudi Arabia but found many things there quite irritating; she finds Dubai much more congenial. (WT-en) Pashley 08:44, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

tourist visas
I read on the lonely planet thorn tree forum that tourist visas are not being issued anymore is this true? if so we should change it on the page

Spelling
Just to be ready for some Star nominations (I hope) and to prevent unproductive reverts, I have proposed at the above page that I think we should add Saudi Arabia to our list of countries that prefer US English. Before I add it, does anyone object and, if so, why? --W. Frankemailtalk 17:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Since more than one year has now elapsed with no objection, I have now made the appropriate amendments. --W. Frankemailtalk 17:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Banner
I noticed the banner appears to depict the city of Mecca. My understanding is that this city is strictly off limits to non-muslims, therefore I am just wondering if we should we not use a banner image of a location that everyone can visit? Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * On the face of it, and all else being equal, I would vote to keep of photo of Mecca for the banner, as it is by far the most famous place in Saudi Arabia, and although non-Muslims can't visit Mecca, they will constantly see pictures of the Kaaba in every Muslim country. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that by far the majority of passenger traffic to and from Saudi Arabia is from pilgrims on the Haj or Umrah. This guide serves them, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:13, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with above. --Saqib (talk) 10:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I prefer your banner, Saqib. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

 * OK, I thought worth asking the question. The ersatz-banner is also much better. Andrewssi2 (talk) 11:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Andrew, one thing to keep in mind is that Saudi Arabia is not a place that can be visited by tourists, anyway. Unless I'm very much mistaken, people have to either go as Muslim pilgrims or by invitation for work, business, diplomacy, or military service. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Who and what is ersatz? OR where is ersatz-banner? --Saqib (talk) 12:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I presume in this case ersatz means the replacement banner (so your new banner above). And although Andrew makes valid points, I agree with the others that the banner should show something recognizable and iconic. James A ▪ talk 13:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome back, James! --Saqib (talk) 14:16, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Saqib, I missed your question before. James A is correct in that 'Ersatz' is the German word for replacement, sometimes used by English speakers in the West because sometimes it just sounds better. Still I should avoid on an international site like this. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:47, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think of "ersatz" as meaning "fake," and dictionary.com agrees with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * To be fair, dictionary.com doesn't actually use the word "fake", but rather "serving as a substitute; synthetic; artificial" (for adjectives). The usage is however definitely not exactly the same meaning as the German original. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:09, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've also understood it there's a little difference in meaning. A direct translation of Ersatz (or ersats in archaic Swedish) would be replacement - any kind of replacement or substitute. It's for instance possible to ersetzen/ersätta a person (fire him and hire somebody else). On the other hand in English ersatz is more like or "artificial (inferior) substitute" just as Ikan said. ϒpsilon (talk) 05:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * In German, "Ersatz" can be used with a neutral connotation. In English it cannot. This may be due to American POWs getting to "enjoy" wartime replacement products labeled and/or called "Ersatz-whatever" which by and large are awful. However, yesterday's ersatz is today's health trend, with all manner of "ersatz" coffee now consumed as "healthier" caffeine free alternatives... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:54, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

To Usable
This is a very informative article, so it would be nice to make it Usable. However, all regional articles are Outlines. Riyadh is a Guide and has been featured as Dotm. Jeddah and Taif are Usable. All the other linked cities - including, embarrassingly, Mecca - are Outlines except Jubail, which is a red link. Hajj is Usable, but is not really categorized correctly under "Other destinations," as this pilgrimage is of course an Itinerary. Madain Saleh is an Outline and Empty Quarter is an Extra-hierarchical region. So if anyone knows Saudi Arabia well and would like to get this country-level article up to Usable status, the most obvious task would be to bring all the linked cities and the Madain Saleh article up to Usable status, but it seems to me that every regional article should also be above Outline status. For your reference, here are the requirements for Usable status for country articles:

Has links to the country's major cities and other destinations (usable status or better), a valid regional structure, and a Get in section describing all of the typical ways to get there. Information about the country's currency, language, cuisine, and culture is included. At least the most prominent attraction is identified with directions.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

expression: Bachelor Section
Saudi Arabians used " Shabab" or " Afrad " to describe single men areas in malls or restaurants; " Bachelor " is not arabic word. In Arabian world, they used "Bachelor " to describe Bsc like " Bsc of Engineering , ..... etc " Omda4wady (talk) 10:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Please plunge forward and edit the article as appropriate. Also, please give whatever explanation will be of most practical use to foreigners coming to Saudi Arabia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:29, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

 * But the English word "bachelor" is used extensively in English signage in Saudi Arabia. Jpatokal (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Correct - but never in the sense of "bachelor girl". --222.127.76.207 01:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Bibles
The article currently states that bringing in non-Muslim religious material like a Bible for personal use is technically illegal but overlooked. But the UK Foreign Ministry says it's allowed, period (as long as it's for personal use). Should we update our text? Powers (talk) 02:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

 * It seems sensible to update with the latest information, with any words of caution that seem appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:33, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Indeed. I was asking, though, which was correct, because I don't know what the latest information is, nor what words of caution might be appropriate. Powers (talk) 02:29, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Barring any more authoritative information, we can simply mention that the UK Foreign Ministry says it's allowed, and that anyone in doubt should ask the Saudi authorities directly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

New rail service
Apparently a new rail service has just opened a few months ago. Maybe this should be mentioned where appropriate. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And the next one seems to be in the pipeline: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/middle-east/saudis-conduct-first-vip-run-on-haramain-high-speed-line.html Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:18, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

SA planning a gargantuan tourist area on the Red Sea coast
As people have posted links to interesting travel news on articles' talk pages, I will now do so too: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-01/saudi-arabia-unveils-plans-for-mega-red-sea-tourism-project

While Saudi Arabia still doesn't let in foreigners for plain tourism, to visit this place "Tourists will either not require a visa or will be able to obtain one online."

--ϒpsilon (talk) 05:50, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:51, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Jeddah montage 2015.jpg

Tourists being allowed into Saudi Arabia soon?
Once every year or so there are news about Saudi Arabia intending to start issuing visas for tourism "soon". Let's see if it will actually become reality this time...--Ypsilon (talk) 16:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

 * This looks to be a shift in policy, as BBC also covered it, See https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-49850056 ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:10, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Currency, time and spelling conventions
Below is a proposed infobox to let readers know which formatting conventions to use in Wikivoyage articles. Do you agree with these proposals? If you have direct knowledge of what is most commonly used in the country, please let us know. Ground Zero (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC) {{infobox|Formatting and language conventions|For articles about ==Currency, time and spelling conventions == Below is a proposed infobox to let readers know which formatting conventions to use in Wikivoyage articles. Do you agree with these proposals? If you have direct knowledge of what is most commonly used in the country, please let us know. Ground Zero (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved to the top of this page. Ground Zero (talk) 04:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:16, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Jeddah at night.jpg

Respect and Segregation
The information in this page is so out-of-date. Women are no longer required to wear abaya and cover their face. Men and women are no longer segregated in public places, even not in the coffee shop outside Mutawwa HQ in Deira Square. —The preceding comment was added by 2a00:5400:e017:112:3985:5092:a995:961c (talk • contribs)

 * Anyone can edit a wiki, including you. If you know information is out of date, plunge forward and update it. But you might want to provide links here on this talk page to demonstrate the truth of what you're saying, because it sounds dubious. (Also, please sign your edits on talk pages by typing 4 tildes [~} in a row at the end.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:56, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe can confirm? Thanks, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

 * I lived in Saudi in the early 1980s, do not have up-to-date information. At that time, segregation was widespread but not complete. At least in Jeddah & Taif, foreign women without abbayas were accepted. Pashley (talk) 06:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

 * I tried to edit the page but it was blocked. The problem of these wiki pages is that it is mostly written by people who either only been the place 20 years ago, or never even been to the place and writing things base on what have been heard from friends or internet. Segregation is not even practice in Riyadh (from photo below), next to Mutawwa HQ on the left. Shops in shopping malls are not even closed in prayer times.
 * Coffee-shop-in-Deera-Square.jpgDeera-Sq-Coffee-Shop2.jpg
 * MEnomad (talk) 07:58, 13 August 2021 (UTC) MEnomad

 * I'm just looking at this thread over 2 years later. Was this issue ever resolved? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The relevant sections have been rewritten, see and . But if the photos represent "mingling" in Saudi Arabia, I think some warnings about a very different culture are definitely in place. –LPfi (talk) 08:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Women's clothing
We now say that "Women are not required to and increasingly commonly do not cover their face in public places". But are they required to cover their hair? That would not at all be obvious for a Western visitor. The dog2 added that it is mandatory to Respect. We should add it here too (especially here) if it is still true. Are there other requirements? None are mentioned. –LPfi (talk) 18:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * To my knowledge, in Saudi Arabia and Iran, wearing a hijab is mandatory for all women. As for covering their faces, from talking to some Saudis, apparently Jeddah is a little less conservative, so the women there just wear a hijab, but Riyadh is more conservative, so the women there will usually wear the full face veil, but that does not necessarily mean it is mandated by law. In Afghanistan, it was reported in the news that the Taliban has made the full face veil mandatory for all women. The dog2 (talk) 18:12, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Cf Iran, where requirements for foreigners are explicitly addressed. We should have something similar here. What locals do is less important, as Western women wouldn't want to follow conservative examples. The important thing is what you need to do not to offend, not to get stopped and questioned, and not to get harsh punishments. –LPfi (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems the issue is covered quite well now in, although whether covering your hair is a legal requirement isn't told. Now the wording is "strongly advised". –LPfi (talk) 08:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Edit war on "expats" vs "immigrants"
I usually agree with the argument that "expat" is a code word for "white immigrant" that has racist connotations and should be dropped, but in the case of the Arab Gulf, people from around the world, and by no means only white people come to work, make money, and (if not held hostage by their employers) go home. Contract labor is not the same as immigration, and therefore, I believe that calling anyone who comes to Saudi Arabia as a contract laborer an "expat" is justified and more accurate than calling them immigrants. I know that pings of IP users don't work, so I'll go to User:86.20.53.154's user talk page to point them to this discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * If you all prefer, we could just change the word "expat(s)" to "foreigner(s)", but that's a broad term that would include people on the Haj or people on a quick business trip, so it all depends on what the intended meaning is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * People who move to a country temporarily with the intention of leaving when the job is done are called "migrant/guest workers". "Expat", like "immigrant", has a wider meaning that also encompasses the possibility of permanent settlement.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You could also use "temporary workers", to be even more specific.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * How about "foreign workers and their families"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * That would work too.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:50, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I'll try to make those changes tomorrow. Thanks for helping to talk through this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 * That's okay. I hope it's an acceptable solution for 86.20.53.154 as well.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

That's fine too. At least in the Singaporean context, my impression is that an "expat" is someone in a high-paying job (eg. bankers, consultants, managers) who has been temporarily posted to Singapore by their company back home, while an "immigrant" is someone who has settled in Singapore permanently. Usually, people on temporary visas to do manual labour are just called "foreign workers", and their work permit conditions explicitly forbid them from settling in Singapore permanently (though it's still possible if you get promoted to worksite supervisor for instance, in which case your company will apply for another type of permit called an S-pass for you, which allows you to apply for permanent residency). It is unfortunately the case the traditionally, expats have been mostly white or Japanese, while immigrants have mostly been from the poorer Asian countries, but with China's recent rise and the increased presence of Chinese companies in Singapore, there are both Chinese expats and immigrants in Singapore, in which case the rule I mentioned applies; someone temporarily posted to Singapore by a Chinese company is an expat, while someone who moves to Singapore permanently is an immigrant. I'm not sure if such a distinction is made in the rest of the English-speaking world. The dog2 (talk) 22:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with the way you define expats (Wikipedia: "In common usage, the term often refers to educated professionals, skilled workers, or artists taking positions outside their home country, either independently or sent abroad by their employers"). Using this or that word depends on what is being said: if a sentence is about something that actually specifically relates to expats, say expats; if it specifically relates to migrant workers say migrant workers (...if it somehow relats to both expats and migrant workers say "expats and migrant workers"); if it relates in a general way to foreigners, sure, say foreigners; if it relates to people who want to settle permanently, say immigrants, etc. Wholesale word substitutions across a whole article don't fit any purpose in this regard. Twsabin (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe one of you guys would like to look through the article and see what form of words works best in each instance. I'm actually going to be pretty busy tonight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:15, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Did it for "expat" specifically. First of all after reading the article bit more carefully, it's clear that it is closely aligned to an expat or a "prospective expat" perspective. The scope feels kind of narrowed by this hyperfocus on the expat experience, but I don't have a well-formed opinion about this yet. So yeah, in context, it was obvious to me that all the mentions of the word expat did really talk about expats, very specifically. One should not just replace expat with any other word in any of the current instances, without changing the meaning of the sentence/paragraph. Twsabin (talk) 00:36, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Do you think English-speakers all understand the word the same way, or close enough to understand the meaning? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What's your understanding of the terms "expat" and "immigrant" as an American then? I just gave you the Singaporean understanding. People may assume that a white person is an expat, while a non-white person is an immigrant, which is an unfortunate consequence of the fact that the richest and most developed countries in the world mostly have white majorities (with a few exceptions like Japan, South Korea and Taiwan), but it's certainly possible that those two terms actually have distinct meanings that are not related to race, and the racial association is just a stereotype. But that doesn't mean we should shy away from those terms so long as they are used in a way that reflects the dictionary definition. The dog2 (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, in the context of Singapore, a Chinese immigrant would typically send his kids to a local government school, while a Chinese expat would typically send his kids to the Chinese international school. That's another difference in behaviour you will notice. The dog2 (talk) 02:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't use the word "expat", and I don't remember hearing anyone use it to describe anyone in the U.S.; I would simply talk about immigrants, foreigners on work visas (not the same as permanent residents), undocumented workers and foreign students. I normally see the word "expat" referring to white people who go to countries other than Europe or countries with a majority of European-origin people, either to work or to retire, and left to my own devices, I would call them foreign workers in the first instance and retired immigrants in the second. Before I read the word being used, I thought of "expatriate" as being synonymous with "exile": someone who leaves a country, probably as a refugee or due to expulsion, and can't come back until or unless conditions change in their country. If I were forced to leave my country, I think I'd call myself an exile. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:13, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I guess the terms have evolved different meanings in different areas then. For me, an exile would be as you described, but an expat would be someone who intends to only stay temporarily. Of course, it's not always so clear cut, and many people who only intended to stay temporarily at first end up loving a place so much that they end up staying for good. And conversely, there are people who intended to settle permanently at first but ended up going back to their countries of origin when they realised that things weren't so rosy in their new home after all. The dog2 (talk) 03:52, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Jeddah Fahne.JPG

 * The concern is that a copyrighted building is included in the image. The nominator claims that this is not allowed. It is unclear whether de minimis really does not apply there, or is interpreted that much stricter. The Commons page on Saudi copyright law has little info on the matter. Anyone who wants to check the situation? –LPfi (talk) 09:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

 * This photo is not visible on the page, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Harsh punishments and low criminality
In my edit Special:Diff/4757880/4757882, I asked "is there evidence that harsh sentences cause a low crime rate in this case? generally they do not".

It is about these sentence versions:
 * 1) Saudi Arabia has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, owing to a notoriously harsh justice system.
 * 2) Saudi Arabia has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, but also a notoriously harsh justice system.
 * 3) Saudi Arabia has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, due in large part to a notoriously harsh justice system that severely punishes crime.

I believe that the consensus among the experts in the area is that harsh punishments and low crime rates are not strongly correlated. Indeed, the correlation may be negative. There is very little evidence that e.g. changing the length of prison sentences or removing or reintroducing death sentences would have any significant effect on crime rates.

The general public, however, tend to think hasher punishments have an effect – which would sound logic but has little support in the research. I very much dislike our perpetuating this misconception, as it is about an important political issue in many countries.

I don't think we need to say anything about the relation between the two. We still do want to tell both things. If they need to be decoupled to avoid controversy, so be it, although I like the way I coupled them :-)

–LPfi (talk) 07:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

 * Hello @LPfi
 * Appreciate the concerns, and I fully respect them.
 * In light of your concerns, how is this: Saudi Arabia is a safe country; the country has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and you are unlikely to encounter problems.
 * I removed the bit on Saudi Arabia's justice system. I believe the warning box makes it clear that you shouldn't do anything silly in the country. Roovinn (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I am concerned that warnings have been toned down from what I remember them (I cannot find those versions though). The problem is about what "respecting" local customs and not doing "anything silly" entails. I don't know the country though, so it is difficult to me to know whether the current advice is enough, and I am not now going to do any thorough check. Removing the one warning about harsh punishments was OK. –LPfi (talk) 14:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

One more down-toning I am concerned by: "the full harshness of Saudi law is reserved for those actually seeking trouble". Does this sentence cover homosexuals, those criticising the regime etc. I would say "those not being cautious enough" for those cases, but I think my wording "offences seen as serious, and repeat offenders" would cover it (the repeat offenders part was there before, but now removed). –LPfi (talk) 05:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Respect of the elderly
The bullet on the elderly was significantly shortened. Have the expectations changed? Earlier you were advised (at least in some contexts) to stand up when an elder person enters the room, and to give your place to them in a line and on public transport. –LPfi (talk) 09:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Drugs and cool shit
"isn't the death penalty for criticising religion an unobvious risk to life or limb? what about drugs put in your baggage or pornography on your computer?" No? I mean you're not allowed to do or have those things in a lot of countries in the world. Like really a lot, ignore the Americas, take everything east of Europe and call Africa a crapshoot. If there's a precedent I've missed let me know (you'd know better than me) but I think generally we don't support giving obvious obvious warnings. If you want to walk around critising Mohammed and shooting heroin I personally do not give a shit but you also probably should not be traveling for any purpose, and this seems obvious to me. Brycehughes (talk) 15:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In my opinion the death penalty for criticizing religion is a non-obvious risk, and honestly I don't really understand where you're coming from here. Is your view that people should not travel unless they already know all about the country they're visiting, even before they open a travel guide? In that case what's the point of the travel guide? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:04, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My view is that generally, for most countries, you can't really criticise religion, government or other idols without getting into trouble, and that this is the norm for much if not most of the world. We are simply privileged that are not subject to that in the West, assuming that's where you're from. So, yeah, I think it's an obvious thing that people would already know, much like they would know that you shouldn't also punch the immigration officer. Brycehughes (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've heard people criticize religion and government in many countries, including non-Western countries. If this is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, I think that is something most people in the world don't know. Even if it were true (and it's not) that people only criticize religion in "the West", our travel guide aims to serve a global audience which includes Western readers. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:35, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah fine put the death thing in a warning box. Brycehughes (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ibaman? –LPfi (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * no objection. Ibaman (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with this post. A warning box should suffice IMO. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 04:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Madain Saleh
Cities and other settlements do not belong in Other destinations, but Madain Saleh isn't a settlement. It was a city, but I don't think it would qualify for Cities any more. I think Other destinations is the right place for archaeological sites. I don't know the relation to al-Ula, 20 km away, which with 60,000 inhabitants does qualify as a city; the mentions outside Get in are confused. –LPfi (talk) 06:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

 * OK, I'll restore it if you or someone else hasn't already done so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saudi Arabia


text:
Talk:Sault Sainte Marie (Ontario)

As you can see, so far I've put up naught but a slurry of point-form crib notes -- sort of a framework to hang more developed ideas on. I'm planning on fleshing the page out in my copious free time, so I apologize in advance if my contributions seem to barely trickle in. =) (WT-en) RickScott 01:49, May 19, 2004 (EDT)

 * No worries. I think we're all happy to see any page started.  And you, or hopefully others too, can just augment it as time passes.  Thanks!  -- (WT-en) Colin 01:58, 19 May 2004 (EDT)

Should this be treated as one city that straddles a border, as Niagara Falls is? -(WT-en) phma 07:50, 19 May 2004 (EDT)

 * I can't seem to find any explicit policy on the matter. Lacking that, and so long as the combined format doesn't become awkward, I don't see any reason to buck the trend started by Niagara Falls and Twin Cities (Minnesota).  Thanks for the pointer and encouragement...(WT-en) RickScott 23:08, May 20, 2004 (EDT)

 * To answer the border question, yes. Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario has an international bridge which ends in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, USA. The Soo is a border city.(WT-en) Carrie 20:49, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Would be helpful for tourists to visit this link:- http://www.superiortrails.com/ss-marie.html (WT-en) Carrie 20:55, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Question on editing: This city's name is spelled Sault Ste. Marie, not "...Sainte ...", so I changed the spelling throughout the article. I would like to change the name of the item though and have redirects to it, rather than the other way around. Being extremely new around Wikitravel, how would I do this? Dsarlo (talk) 22:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I think you're suggesting moving the pages to Sault Ste. Marie, with a redirect from Sault Sainte Marie; is that what you want to do? You should be able to do that by clicking on "More", then "Move" and following the prompts with the input you want to insert. If not, someone else can do it. But can you link something attesting to the point you're making about the town's official name? (By the way, this is Wikivoyage, not Wikitravel. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sault Sainte Marie (Ontario)


text:
Talk:Sausalito

I can't keep up. Too much html and too many formatting issues.(WT-en) SHC 20:05, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
 * Hey, I just adde dthe tag to this page in hopes of calling attention to the issue. I'll try and work on it as well I grew up about a mile away...), Thanks for putting so much effort into it! (WT-en) Majnoona 21:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Sausalito


text:
Talk:Savage (Maryland)

Savage-Guilford
Google maps says the two are together should it stay the way it is or change it? --(WT-en) Kcv5 23:23, 20 November 2011 (EST)

The U.S. Census Bureau adds both together. However, Savage is the main town travellers will encounter, so I think it's fine as-is. --(WT-en) Globe-trotter 00:39, 21 November 2011 (EST)

title: Talk:Savage (Maryland)


text:
Talk:Savannakhet

wow! We didn't have Savannakhet? I'll add it to my todo... (WT-en) Majnoona 21:04, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Just wanted to thank who ever is cleaning up this article for a more appropriate Wiki style. I appreciate it since i am a new comer! Cheers JdiamondJ

title: Talk:Savannakhet


text:
Talk:Saxon Ore Mountains

Saxon Ore Mountains
SWEPT IN FROM PUB

The above article name is a bit of a fudge forced to fit the existing country/state hierarchy. The range is known as the Ore Mountains and straddles the German/Czech border, the highest point being on the Czech side. It is a major tourist magnet. IMHO we need an article on the Ore Mountains, but it will be an extra-hierarchical region. Can we cope with that? --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 02:14, 25 January 2012 (EST)

 * Extra-hierarchical regions are fine, the Harz Mountains already function as an extra-hierarchical region. --(WT-en) Globe-trotter 03:38, 25 January 2012 (EST)

title: Talk:Saxon Ore Mountains


text:
Talk:Saxon Switzerland

I'm pretty sure that Sächsische Schweiz is not the most common English name of this place.

 * I've never heard of "Saxon Switzerland", and the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names only gives Sächsische Schweiz. The Geonet names search by the USGS doesn't turn up a hit for "Saxon Switzerland". Weirdly, Google hits about 3-to-1 in favor of "Sächsische Schweiz" over "Saxon Switzerland" on English-language pages.

 * That said, the Beeb has an article on the subject on their site, so the name's not totally unused. I'd think that the more common "Sächsische Schweiz" is preferable, but I'm not going to move this article until there's some more discussion. --(WT-en) Evan 09:52, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

 * I was not careful enough to check other sources like you did, but since the very article has Saxon Switzerland in brackets after the German name and had an English redirect, I just assumed that was the usual English name. Feel free to move back if convenient. (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 10:00, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

 * Hi there, I created Saxon Switzerland as redirect page for S��chsische Schweiz, cause it is not an English name and I was not sure, if all users and contributers would use the German name or the English. Living just a few kilometres away, I can asure that the English version is commonly used with tourists here (it is really funny to see people trying to say the German version sometimes). I would therefore opt for having the English name, but in other article descriptions and in the head of this one with the German name in brackets. Cheers, (WT-en) Felix 09:26 (GMT), 05 May 2006

Merge with Bohemian Switzerland???
Hello. I have an idea that this article could be merged with Bohemian Switzerland. I don't know if it is reasonable to merge two places from from two countries, but it could make sense, because it's in fact one region diveded between two countries (Bohemian-Saxon Switzerland) or Elbe Sandstone Mountains, I don't know which name is better) and borders doesn't matter these days. What do you think? —The preceding comment was added by Prazak123 (talk • contribs)

 * I don't know enough to have an opinion about whether to merge or not, but I would point out that such a merger is possible, but the result would be to create an extra-hierarchical region, meaning it wouldn't be breadcrumbed (subordinated) to the normal hierarchy of local, regional and national articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

 * I think I agree with Ikan. I'd also like to note that while the borders don't "feel" like borders inside the Schengen area, they are still borders that seperate different countries with different languages, laws, etc, and in this particular case, still with different currencies, all of which matter to travellers. Vidimian (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

 * I live rather close to this region, so here's my two cents: while the Elbe Sandstone Mountains are really one region in terms of natural geography, someone at some point in time decided to draw a border right through it. Thus we get Saxon Switzerland (part of our breadcrumbs for Saxony and rightfully so) and Bohemian Switzerland. Yes, in recent years there have been efforts to jointly market the area across the border and in recent years local transport links across the border have much improved, but it would still produce a rather unwieldy mess if we were to eliminate the country specific articles. There is nothing to say against expanding the article on the extraregion, though... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:33, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Banner
A new page banner has been uploaded as part of Wiki Loves Earth this year. In my opinion, it is much better than the existing one in terms of light, color, composition... well, everything. I suggest to replace the existing banner with the new one. --Alexander (talk) 20:25, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I have changed the banner. --Alexander (talk) 14:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saxon Switzerland


text:
Talk:Saxony

Regions
I suggest a subdivision of Saxony in the three "provinces" (Regierungsbezirke) of Chemnitz, Dresden and Leipzig. Any objections?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 13:55, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

 * I don't think these are good regions as no traveller outside of Germany will ever recognize them, and they feel too political and set-up. What just about Western Saxony, Central Saxony and Eastern Saxony? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 16:10, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

 * I am fine with that too, but given the shape of Saxony, I guess it would be NW, SW and E, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 16:35, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Definitely, not. How will Bautzen and the whole Oberlausitz fit into this division? And what about Vogtland? For me, the division here looks a very reasonable starting point. It does capture the actual cultural differences. The thing may be to make the region names easier for foreigners. (WT-en) Atsirlin 17:35, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

 * That would give us
 * Saxon Erz Mountains — Chemnitz, Aue, Oberwiesenthal
 * Upper Lusatia — Bautzen, Görlitz, Hoyerswerda
 * Leipzig Lowlands — Leipzig
 * Central Saxon Hills — Hainichen
 * Saxon Elbland — Dresden, Meissen, Radebeul, Riesa, Freital, Radebeul, Moritzburg, Pillnitz
 * Saxon Switzerland — Bad Schandau, Königstein
 * Vogtland —
 * West Saxony — Zwickau
 * This appears to be a bit too many regions with the limited number of cities so far, could any be merged?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 03:14, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Bautzen and Oberlausitz would obviously fall under East, while Vogtland would fall under West. But I agree, we could better try it a bit more geographical, historical and cultural. The regions from Atsirlin definitely seem like a great start, but they seem too many for the small land that is Saxony. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 19:25, 12 August 2010 (EDT)

OK. Since you are fine with the idea to make the subdivision more cultural, here is a suggestion from my side:
 * Erzgebirge (Saxon Ore Mountaints): Chemnitz, Freiberg, Oberwiesenthal, Zwickau, Annaberg-Buchholz, Zschopau valley, Altenberg
 * Leipzig region: Leipzig, Wurzen, Oschatz, Grimma, Döbeln, Hainichen
 * Oberlausitz (Upper Lusatia): Bautzen, Görlitz, Zittau, Oybin, Hoyerswerda, Kamenz
 * Saxon Elbland: Elbe Valley + Saxon Switzerland + at least one more part (Grossenhain, Riesa, Torgau, Lommatzsch)
 * Vogtland: Plauen, Reichenbach, Oelsnitz, Makneukirchen, Bad Elster, Adorf

I understand that half of the articles do not exist. However, the whole Saxony is in its very early outline stage.(WT-en) Atsirlin 09:12, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

 * I can support that. I guess this means that West Saxony is merged into Erzgebirge and that Leipzig Lowlands and Central Saxon Hills are merged into Leipzig Region?  What do you mean by "+ at least one more part"?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 10:12, 13 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Your guess is correct) "At least one more part" means that we have many cities and diverse landscapes along the Elbe. Therefore, a further subdivision may be appropriate. Alternatively, we can put Saxon Switzerland, Elbe Valley (or Dresden region if you like), and smth else with the lower part of the Elbe as three separate parts of Saxony. (WT-en) Atsirlin 10:26, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

 * I have created the map to show what the regions will look like. When creating the map, I have also included the Central Hills and West Saxony, but they could be absorbed if we agree on that here. I do think we'd need a different name for Leipzig Area — the Saxony Tourism Agency calls that region Saxon Castle and Heathland, which I think is a better name. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:17, 13 August 2010 (EDT)

 * OK, detailed comments are as follows:

 * West Saxony: I do not understand the bordering and the identity of this region. Chemnitz and Zwickau are not really Erzgebirge, that's true. On the other hand, they are close to the mountains, a natural way to the mountains, etc. Therefore, I would definitely merge West Saxony and Saxon Ore Mountains
 * Central Saxon Hills and Leipzig Lowlands: well, they can be merged or left as they are. The terrain is indeed a bit different, but the cultural aspects are quite the same: a mixture of historical and industrial (or former industrial) towns. The name Saxon Castle and Heathland does not look appropriate, because there are many castles in other parts of Saxony (e.g., Zschopau valley in Erzgebirge) and it is not a heathland any more. Leave it as Leipzig Lowlands or Leizpig Lowlands and Central Saxon Hills.
 * The regions along the Elbe are most problematic. Saxon Switzerland is now a separate region, fine. But the terrain near Dresden and further down the Elbe are quite different. Moreover, we will easily have more than 9 destinations here (Dresden, Pirna, Pillnitz, Freital, Radebeul, Meissen, Moritzburg, Riesa, Torgau, Grossenhain, Strehla). I still suggest two separate regions (if you like, Dresden valley and North Saxony, the boundary is between Meissen and Riesa) or a single Saxon Elbland with a further subdivision. (WT-en) Atsirlin 08:07, 14 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Thanks once more for your insight. I think we all agree that West Saxony should be merged into the Ore Mountains. About the Saxon Elbland, I'd rather not have any further subdivisions. As we already lost West Saxony, I suppose there is room for another region. But I don't think there wouldn't be much to see in the region north of Elbland (besides Torgau). Is there a possibily to combine the region of North Saxony with the Leipzig Lowlands and the Central Saxon Hills? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 10:58, 15 August 2010 (EDT)

 * In my opinion, places like Strehla are also quite interesting. The whole Torgau region is more Lutheran (as Saxony-Anhalt) and thus different from luxurious Saxony. But this is just a personal feeling. For the moment, you can definitely merge Torgau into the Leipzig region, and let's see how it develops. (WT-en) Atsirlin 18:40, 15 August 2010 (EDT)

 * I have adapted the map according to what you've written. Is it okay this way? I put the boundary of the Leipzig Region and the Saxon Elbland between Reisa and Meissen. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 20:20, 15 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Yes, let's leave it like that. Thank you for your efforts. (WT-en) Atsirlin 04:12, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

Placing Riesa within the Leipzig region is pretty counter-intuitive. It is more strongly linked to Dresden in terms of infrastructure and economy. And it is clearly part of the Saxon Elbland region as defined by the eponymous tourism association. While I understand why Torgau is excluded from this region (being much more conveniently accessible from Leipzig), I see no reason to make an exception for Riesa. --RJFF (talk) 10:29, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you agree? Would you volunteer to edit the map accordingly (the whole district of Meißen, see this map, should be placed in the Saxon Elbland region instead of cutting off the bit around Riesa and placing it with the Leipzig Lowlands)? Thank you in advance. --RJFF (talk) 10:03, 13 November 2016 (UTC) P.S. One more argument: Riesa also belongs to the same natural landscape as Dresden and Meißen, see this map. --RJFF (talk) 10:11, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've made a revised version of the map with the entire Meissen district "turned blue". I'll upload it as a replacement in a few days if there are no complaints about this arrangement. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:04, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello I don't think there will be any objection. Should we proceed? Kind regards, --RJFF (talk) 11:12, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Oops, I totally forgot about this one. New map uploaded now. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --RJFF (talk) 19:20, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Dynamic Map
I am pulling the dynamic map here, as it quite clearly does not match the static map and has overlapping "regions" (certainly a non-no) Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:28, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

ICE-turned-RE from Nuremberg
I totally understand the temptation to mention abandoned transport connections that we may still be accustomed to (I often notice myself writing something like "it used to be such-and-such, but now it's so-and-so"). But I wonder if this information has any relevance to users preparing their trip to Saxony in 2019. To them it is just a regional express like any other. And I doubt anyone bothers to take the RE from Nuremberg to Leipzig (taking more than four hours while the ICE needs just over two). Don't get me wrong: This connection is certainly important for Upper Franconia (Lichtenfels etc) and Eastern Thuringia (Jena, Saalfeld), but it is not advisable for someone going all the way from Nuremberg to Leipzig.

Also I doubt if the "See" section is the right place to discuss the reasons for the bombing of Dresden. This should only be a short summary of Saxony's sights. I just wanted to mention that—unlike the well-known example of Dresden—many smaller towns did not lose much of their old town centres. The right place to mention the reasons of the bombing would be, in my opinion, Dresden. Kind regards, --RJFF (talk) 15:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a special ticket valid on those trains that may be worth it. Your call whether we explicitly add that or strike out the mention of this regional train. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Tool tips on Wikivoyage?
I had to look up what "NFC juice" might be. It took a few attempts since google wanted to shunt me to near field communication and apple the company. At first I thought it might be a way of paying for the juice. Is there a way to add a tool tip to explain that NFC in this context means not from concentrate? Griffindd (talk) 11:56, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saxony


text:
Talk:São Francisco do Sul

The subject of this article is actually 'São Francisco do Sul'. I couldn't work out how to change article names, so could someone in the know lend a hand?

 * Moved -- you could do it yourself if you signed up. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:15, 25 December 2008 (EST)

title: Talk:São Francisco do Sul


text:
Talk:São Jorge (Azores)

VFD Discussion

 * No content (WT-en) –sumone10154 20:03, 30 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Delete. This appears to be a mis-placed attempt at an image page. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:52, 1 May 2012 (EDT)
 * Redirect to São Jorge --(WT-en) Inas 23:43, 1 May 2012 (EDT)
 * That redirect does not work; it goes to a town in Brazil. We may need a disambiguation page.
 * Certainly this needs the image removed, but Sao Jorge (Azores) seems to be a real place and, so unless someone wants to fil out the article soon, it needs a redirect to Azores for now. (WT-en) Pashley 22:05, 20 May 2012 (EDT)

Result: Redirected to Azores. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:09, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

title: Talk:São Jorge (Azores)