text:
Wikivoyage talk:Attraction listings

Bigger than a breadbox, smaller than a house
So, I think there are going to be some attractions that are going to be too big to fit in this list item attraction format, but don't really qualify for having their own article under Project:What is an article?.

I'm wondering if we might want to make sub-sections under "See" and "Do" for these really big attractions. Like this:

==See==

*A Small Museum. [...] *Town Square. [...] *Big Statue. [...]

===National Museum of Art==

Explanatory paragraph -- why this is important, what to see.

Maybe another paragraph.

A third paragraph.

Attraction details: address, phone number, price, directions; e.g., everything in the attraction listing format except the explanatory sentences.

The idea is that if there's more than one to three sentences to describe the attraction, there's a way to do it without breaking out into another article.

I think we don't need this for restaurants, bars, hotels, etc. There's not really much value in describing in excrutiating details the luscious tender juiciness of the rack of lamb at a restaurant. The 1-3 sentence description should do for those. But for attractions, there may be more info needed.

San Francisco has this now for the Golden Gate Bridge. My concern is that we'll lose the compact nature of the listings. People do by example, here, and I'm afraid every listing will grow into these subsections.

Ideas/comments/suggestions? Is this a good idea or a bad idea? --(WT-en) Evan 09:22, 21 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * This makes sense, maybe try it out on some of the current Big Attractions? I'm for anything that keeps stuff on the "destination" page instead of creating "attraction" pages.(WT-en) Majnoona

Time format
Can we review the time format? Upper case AM and PM look rather loud to me. I prefer am and pm. I've just done a cursory google on keywords "am pm style manual" and without going in to many of the sites, it appears that a large majority favor lower case.

 * Chicago manual of style uses "a.m." and "p.m." or "AM" and "PM", with the first preferred. Lots of abbreviations are in all-caps, and should be -- we can't protect your delicate text ears forever. Why is this one different? Even if "am" is better than "AM", why is this worth the effort of changing now?

 * In my view am and pm are more readable. We don't capitalise ante meridiem and post meridiem. (WT-en) Nurg 18:52, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

Also I suggest we stipulate use of 'noon' and 'midnight'. I know there are lots of dummies like me who don't know which is 12am and which 12pm. I can't even get my head around how something can be ante or post when it's right on the dot. Cheers. (WT-en) Nurg 01:47, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * I agree about noon and midnight. It might be worthwhile to add a Project:time and date formats, since these are kind of important and (once again) having a standard to point to reduces needless edit wars.

 * Can you get this started? We probably need to point restaurant and bar listings to it, too. --(WT-en) Evan 10:11, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * Have started Project:time and date formats. We can continue this discussion on the Talk page there. (WT-en) Nurg 18:52, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * Only very slightly related, how do you get the time after a comment. Does everyone type this in manually, or is there an automatic way to do it? (WT-en) Brendio 19:22, 15 Jan 2006 (GMT+1)

 * See Project:using talk pages. --(WT-en) Evan 13:57, 15 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * Thanks. (WT-en) Brendio 14:11, 15 Jan 2006 (EST)

Telephone Numbers
I've just noticed that current listing templates are inconsistent on this subject.

Project:Restaurant listings, Project:Bar listings and Project:Accommodation listings all explicitly say:

 * Phone numbers should leave off the area code unless outside the "main" area code of the city.

But Project:Attraction listings says nothing, and indeed the example gives an area code.

I have been applying the 'no area code' rule to attractions too in the mistaken belief that was what the mos says. And in following this up I've seen for the first time the discussion that went on back in Oct-May in Project:Manual of style about whether we should put area codes in or not.

I cannot see any rhyme or reason why attraction listings should be different from other listings in this way, so I think this is really an error or oversight in the way the mos reflected the consensus from that previous discussion.

I take it that the consensus was that numbers should always be written as they would be dialed locally, and that information on how to dial to them from other cities in the same country, or internationally, should be included in Contact section.

So I propose to update the Project:Attraction listings page in line with the other listing articles. -- (WT-en) Chris j wood 08:19, 20 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * That makes sense to me. I think the attraction listings page was created after the area code discussion, and there was some question as to whether or not to use them. But I think you're right, that we should be consistent across the different kinds of listings. --(WT-en) Evan 09:17, 20 Jul 2004 (EDT)

External link Style
Hey, I was just looking around for how you guys want external links done. The Project:External_links section seems to indicate a preference for embedded links, while the Attraction listings page lists non-embeded link for the proper formatting style for attractions. Kind of minor, I guess, but I'd prefer to not have to redo pages later. --(WT-en) James Thu Jul 29 16:57:56 HST 2004

 * This is still being debated but I think consensus is shifting towards embedded links. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:52, 29 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * Actually, I think the winds are weighing towards not changing our style for right now. James, you should probably do it as the attraction listing page says. --(WT-en) Evan 00:11, 30 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * As far as I can tell, the discussion on hidden external links has stopped, and the result on that page seems to favor hiding links, which is inconsistent with what this attraction policy says. It seems to me this page should be changed to reflect the linking policy. -- (WT-en) Beland 22:26, 14 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Site Guides
[Moved from Travellers' pub by (WT-en) Hypatia 21:27, 16 Dec 2004 (EST)]

When I get some more time (I have a PhD to write.... oh the guilt that I'm even on here....!) I'd like to add quite a bit to the Egypt, Israel and Jordan parts of Wikivoyage - parts of the world I'm particularly familar with and fond of. To my mind, part of providing a good travel guide might involve putting up some moderately detailed guides to the various sites within a location. For example, rather than just listing the Temple of Luxor as a site to See in Luxor, it would be great to add some explanation as to history, excavation, a guide to the various components of the temple, what to look out for, etc etc. as a separate article to which users could link. Others might want to do the same for, say, Angkor Wat, Macchu Picchu, the British Museum, etc etc. Problem is, providing additional detail will almost certainly blow out the desirable size of an article. My basic question is: What is the scope for providing concise but detailed guides to various sites within Wikivoyage? Any ideas / suggestions / discussion? (WT-en) Pjamescowie 13:21, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * So, in general, I think we need to have Project:attraction listings in the page for the city they're in. But I do believe there are rare exceptions where we need to have a full article on an attraction. There's some info on this on Project:What is an article?, but we might want to be more specific. I think we already have an Angkor Wat article (although it has a more precise name, IIRC).

 * Anyways: yes, I totally think this is a good idea. --(WT-en) Evan 14:07, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Great! So should we start discussing some general guidelines / formatting for these site guides? In the spirit of independent travel that Wikivoyage encourages, my idea would be to focus on those sites / attractions which are difficult to interpret without a local guide (of varying quality and price) and / or where on-site documentation is very thin on the ground.... (Egypt nearly everywhere is a prime example of this problem - I'm sure there are others!) (WT-en) Pjamescowie 14:25, 8 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Listings for Do
Attraction listings are supposed to cover "Do" as well. But this format is clumsy in a case where the attraction in question is something like Rafting on river X and there are many operators who will do the rafting with. We need to be able to write 2-3 lines on the activity as such and list the operators separately with perhaps a max 1-2 line comment limit. -- (WT-en) Ravikiran 07:52, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)

 * Yeah, that's how I do it. Some people like to use the listing format for things that IMHO are not listings, like putting a list of dishes under Eat.  I much prefer having a paragraph or two about the thing to do in a general sense, and then use listings for places where you can buy/rent/borrow equipment or whatever. -- (WT-en) Mark 08:33, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Is it See or Do?
I have a tough time decided where to put things.
 * Sports Events, for example - often I find them in the Do section, but is watching a game something you Do or something you See?
 * A park or greenspace - you can Do all sorts of stuff, picnics, walk, play, but that shouldn't have to be mentioned in city after city. So do you go See a park or Do a park?

Opinions, please? -- (WT-en) Ilkirk 15:39, 22 Nov 2005 (EST)

 * I think both of these are on Project:Where you can stick it, which is probably a page we should feature more prominently. --(WT-en) Evan 16:12, 22 Nov 2005 (EST)

 * You're exactly right - twice. -- (WT-en) Ilkirk 09:31, 23 Nov 2005 (EST)

Price shorthand
Is there/could there be a style for more briefly listing the full and reduced admission prices to attractions. For example listing the full price first, followed by a slash and then the reduced admission (€8.50/€6)? -- (WT-en) Brendio

 * Typically I do the full price and note discounts in the "comments" section, like "$5.50 ($3 for seniors and students)". --(WT-en) Evan 13:55, 15 Jan 2006 (EST)

Structured listings
So, ja: has done some cool things with Mediawiki templates to make custom listings (see ja:Template:Kau for an example, ja:ドバイ for a good usage).

I'd like to see this kind of formatting done on all our language versions. I've been opposed to using templates for content, but I'm coming around on it, because this is just too good to pass up.

Should we start brainstorming about how to do this on en:? --(WT-en) Evan 16:24, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * ya know, that is pretty durn cool, and reminds me that I still haven't done any work on a Japanese version of the skin I made. Gar. I need to put some time into it, and probably won't be able to do so until mid-February. -- (WT-en) Mark 17:01, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

hCard
So, I'm really interested in the cool initiatives in semantic markup going on at http://microformats.org/, especially I wonder if there's a possibility of using it for Wikivoyage (combined with templates). Here's my idea:

BEGIN:vCard VERSION:3.0 ORG:Foo Restaurant TEL;TYPE=VOICE,WORK: TEL;TYPE=FAX,WORK:+1-415-555-1212 URL:http://example.net/ END:vCard
 * We use Mediawiki templates to assemble listing data, like.
 * Those templates render as custom "vcard" tags, like this:
 * A MediaWiki custom tag (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Extending_wiki_markup) renders the tag as hCard HTML.

I think this would be pretty nifty. I also think that it would be useful for the world. It wouldn't even be that hard (There's a PEAR tool for parsing VCARD, so it'd be mostly glue code). It's not a first priority, but I think it's interesting. Any comments? --(WT-en) Evan 16:55, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I can see quite a few advantages to such a scheme in the way the data can be handed. If we decided to change the formating of the listings, we would just have to change the template and not each individual page (like we are doing now with getting rid of the external links sections). The hotel and restaurant listings could be easily transfered to a PDA address book or GPS receiver for easy access "on the field", for example, and I am sure many other applications could be thought of. The only disadvantage that I can see, is that the (slightly) increased complexity of the markup could scare off new comers who have no experience in html etc. Noobies will have to RTFM before they can begin, although they could still enter plain text and other, experienced users could do the conversion. — (WT-en) Brendio 17:16, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * My only question is: "where does the cheeky discription go?" I need to know because that's where we add value over the yellow pages. -- (WT-en) Mark 17:52, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * You guys are reinventing the wheel -- we've been doing this at Japanese Wikivoyage since the beginning, only by using Mediawiki templates (see eg. ) and I'd be more than happy to see these in English as well. However, I think it's absolutely necessary that a user-friendly "Add entry" / "Edit entry" type wizard is provided. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:35, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

How much time should I devote to this place?
So, different attractions take a different amount of time. The world's biggest ball of twine in Darwin (Minnesota) is going to take you about 10-15 minutes tops to fully appreciate; the Louvre in Paris requires at least a day to get the basics, and about 3-4 days to get the full appreciative effect.

I wonder if there is a point to having some information in our listing format about how much time to devote to an attraction. (I don't think the same kind of info would be needed for, say, bars, restaurants, or hotels.) Comments? Ideas? --(WT-en) Evan 22:13, 27 March 2006 (EST)

Places, not activities
So, it's not unusual to see new users add sections to "Do" like this:

... when what we want is more like:

I wonder if there's a way to emphasize that we want listings of places to do things rather than things to do. (Common or featured activities in an area should go into a paragraph at the beginning of "do", of course.) Any suggestions? --(WT-en) Evan 10:21, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * Um... why do "we" want that?  For outdoorsy activities, I think it makes a lot more sense to list places by activities, so somebody interested in (eg.) diving and hiking can find those fast and ignore the places for fishing and golfing. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:55, 5 December 2006 (EST)
 * I would modify Jani's analysis (with which I agree) to say that this makes sense for outdoorsy destinations. Placing the activity of "hiking" at a top level doesn't make sense for New York City, because even though you can hike (by some definitions of the term) in some of the parks, it's a minor part of what brings people to the destination.  Contrast Yosemite National Park, where it's the big attraction of the place.  Perhaps the way to address this is to have the Parks template contain language stressing activities while the City templates stress places. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:41, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * The article templates list activities that way; see Project:Small city article template for an example. I think what you're asking though, Jani, is besides being the standard way to do things for Wikivoyage, why is that the right way to do it? Because grouping things by location makes it easier to group practical details like directions and contact information without repeating them. Let me expand the above fictional listings to show what I mean:

 * Well, that's kinda my point. The language in the existing City template (among others) encourages people to place the activity first.  If there's a problem with that, modify the language.  However, don't modify it for those classes of destinations such as Parks where it's more sensible to treat the activity as the unifying principle. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:46, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * Repeating this information over several different activities would be tedious, hard to keep up, and difficult for people to find. I realize there may be some practical information that can be given about each activity, too ("Rock is mostly granite and sandstone, great for climbing, high winds in the area", "Low visibility in the water on the north side of the island, but better wildlife", "Bear season opens in the fall for two weeks and requires a special permit"), but these kinds of things really lend themselves to prose descriptions at the start of "Do" rather than in the structured format of listings. If there's an activity that a destination is particularly known for and there's a lot of this kind of info and a lot of places to do it (or businesses that help you do it), it should be a separate sub-section of "Do".

 * There's some sense to this; I would immodestly cite the "Do" and "Buy" sections of Santa Fe (New Mexico) as an example of how this can work, with a structure that in essence puts the activity in the narrative and then formats the locales conventionally under that. However, with outdoorsy destinations, the activity is the "Do."  You don't go to the Grand Canyon because Grandview Point and the Kaibab Trail are attractions there; you go to the Grand Canyon because it has boffo sightseeing and fantastic hiking, of which Grandview Point and the Kaibab Trail are examples. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:46, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * Yes, Santa Fe is a great example! --(WT-en) Evan 13:01, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * Other reasons: it keeps the "do" section nicely parallel with the other listings. And we don't list every activity you can do in a place (although some new users add things like "See the sights", "Relax", "Eat good food", "Go out dancing", "Shop for gifts"). It's easier to keep "Do" just for activities if we keep it place- and business-focused. --(WT-en) Evan 12:23, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * I see what you're saying, and the problem with the conversation may be the unfortunate choice of examples. The new-user "contributions" that you list here are of course appropriate for replacement by site-specific things that conform more closely to the MoS, and as I say above, some different template language that encourages the newbie to do the right thing might be developed.  The example you used happens to be one of the exceptions -- a thing that is more usefully organized by activity than by place -- and I will continue to defend the existing approach to the outdoorsy things at outdoorsy places.  Fair? -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:46, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * Well, it's fair that you will defend it, but I still disagree. B-) I prefer having activities qua activities as second-level or third-level headers, like Isle Royale National Park, with each trail in a separate listing. I much prefer this to the Grand Canyon format, and I think it better follows the format we use for cities, regions, etc. If there's really not enough to say about each trail (or river or lake or beach or whatever), or the level of detail would be too much for a general-purpose guidebook, then I guess I'd prefer just leaving it as prose paragraphs rather than listing items. --(WT-en) Evan 13:01, 5 December 2006 (EST)

University of Place
Archived from the Pub:

What contact info should we provide when listing universities and other institutions of higher learning? I normally give the address, phone number, fax number, and email for the admissions department since the admissions department is normally the department in charge of arranging visits. Does it make sense to give the admissions office's contact info over another department? -- (WT-en) Sapphire 17:54, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

 * Some of us are intinerant teachers and would be more interested in the recruiting office. Give the web address if there is one. (WT-en) Pashley 20:59, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

 * Can we nail this down? I'm trying to figure out what to do with Warsaw's schools. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 06:27, 26 September 2007 (EDT)

The time it takes
moved from Project:Requests for comment:

An additional heading "Minimum time to see attractions" should perhaps be created to give an estimate of time one should plan in a given city/ location.

 * I think this is useful information, but it can be hard to establish an objective measure in a lot of cases. For me, the Hermitage in Saint Petersburg took about 70 hours, but I'm sure plenty of people "see" it in 2-3. When at all possible, I think it's best to add this information in the description, rather than to give it its own heading. Check the Oriental Institute listing for an example of how one might go about this. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:00, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Fax numbers
Just wondered whats the rationale behind listing fax numbers? Do they add any value at all, esp if there is an email address and/or website? Armin-t (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's common for hotels to offer fax (at a price) to business travellers, Hotel rating indicates some of the systems for awarding hotels some number of "stars" do expect it to be provided. For attractions? Anyone's guess... some do still use fax, even though (like e-mail) it is subject to abuse by marketers sending unsolicited ads to the machines. I'll usually avoid listing e-mail if there's already a web site listed (due to spambots) but if a FAX number is on the venue's own website, I'd usually list it. Its usefulness depends on the type of attraction at best. K7L (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I only add e-mail or fax if the place does not have a website. Globe-trotter (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes sense to me, avoid adding extra un-necessary information and cluttering, if there is a link to a website anything else other than a phone number (for those currently without internet, such as someone who downloaded the guide) is probably not necessary, if a person wants that information they can find it without to much effort. Fax number would only be a last resort? Armin-t (talk) 00:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's been a very long time since we've had control over what our listings display. When we do update them, I think taking out fax as a standard term (but still allowing it to be added manually) would make sense. I add email when it's a primary way of interacting with the place, as is often the case with hostels and sometimes the case with B&Bs/guesthouses. --Peter Talk 01:45, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By "still allowing it to be added manually" do you mean removing it from MediaWiki:Edittools but leaving listing alone? K7L (talk) 22:29, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Directions w/o Address
I noticed that the directions attribute is ignored unless there's an address. I can see why that's normally OK, but in Crowden-in-Longdendale I wanted to indicate the approximate directions to nearby sites that don't really have an address. Any advice for a relative newbie? Dave.Dunford (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

 * That sounds like a bug in the template - try bringing this issue up on Template talk:Listing and it should be quickly resolved. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:49, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

 * I'd be inclined to put the directions in the address field in this case, as the template is generating "Name, Address (directions)..." and there's no need to force the directions into parenthesis if they're the only available address info (other than lat,long co-ordinates) for a landmark. K7L (talk) 22:23, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

 * I worked round it in the end (essentially by adding an address) but thanks for the advice. [Update: What I expected, and wanted, was "Name (directions)". I've raised it at Template talk:Listing as suggested.] Dave.Dunford (talk) 09:43, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

 * I use this format in the Walt Disney World articles as well (see, e.g., Walt Disney World/Epcot). It has always worked fine.  LtPowers (talk) 19:36, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Conflict with "Time and date formats" page
1. This project page says:
 * If the attraction never closes, use "Open 24 hours".

But Time and date formats says:
 * For establishments that don't close, use: 24 hours daily

2. This project page says:
 * If the times are the same for every day, use "Every day, opening time-closing time".

But Time and date formats says:
 * For all seven days, use: daily, not "every day" or "Su–Sa".

Should this project page be brought in to line with Time and date formats? Nurg (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably. I think our star articles all follow the general policy rather than this specific one.  LtPowers (talk) 13:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, this page should be updated. --Peter Talk 22:08, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

title: Wikivoyage talk:Attraction listings


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Avoid HTML

Inaccuracy
The first bullet item says "Wiki markup is a high-level layout description that can be translated into many formats; HTML is not." This strikes me as ... inaccurate. In fact, that description is precisely what HTML was designed to be. The other arguments still apply, but this one doesn't seem right. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:51, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * This entire page seems outdated - the "quick fact tables for countries" comment has been replaced with Template:Quickbar, we're using listing tags that are XML - much more like HTML than wiki text, etc. This guideline really doesn't need its own page, and could probably be better handled with a single line Project:Manual of style stating "please use wiki markup instead of HTML whenever possible".  I'd be in favor of converting this page to a redirect and updating the MOS if there is further support. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:31, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Fine with me. (WT-en) LtPowers 18:59, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Discussion continued at Wikivoyage_talk:Manual_of_style

Main difference between XML and HTML
XML and HTML are different in terms of their characteristics. They both have different goals and the way we use them in the application. We can not replace XML with HTML XML is used to describe the data, we want to store that data where the HTML is used to represent the data in such a way that we want graphs or plain web pages. In essence, the XML is describing the date and displaying the HTML date.

For More info, Please visit - XML Tutorial

Explanation of my previous action here
I followed the user who did not sign the previous post from another wmf-wiki where they also did not sign their post. On that wiki I was able to easily fix the problem by using template: Unsigned2, which does not seem to exist here. It appears that even the use of template: Unsigned is not straightforward here, I think? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Look below your edit screen, and you'll see "Talk templates: username/IP ". The reason it didn't work is that you added the time. You could add it after the template if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * We really should have a separate template for undated comments (e.g. c:Template:Undated), but that's a tangent for another day. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 05:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wikivoyage talk:Avoid HTML


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Avoid negative reviews

This place sucks
Moved from travellers' pub by (WT-en) Evan

So, I'm thinking about anti-recommendations for restaurants, bars, hotels, attractions, etc. My general feeling is that it's probably not worthwhile to list places that just suck, unless they're so prominent/well-known/whatever that unwitting travelers may be sucked in. For example, the hotel right across from the train station, the roadside attraction with billboards for miles in every direction, the bar listed in another guide.

I'm wondering where and how to express this idea, though. Any opinions or ideas? --(WT-en) Evan 10:37, 8 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * Just put it into the appropriate section under a sub-header "What to avoid". Seems like the most straight forward answer to me. (WT-en) Nils Jan 8th 2004

 * Yeah, but why should we have a whole section on what to avoid? Unless there's a really good chance that people are going to go somewhere, and we need to warn them away, I don't see a good reason to take up valuable space in a destination guide with information about a place not worth going. I think we should just list ones that we need to have negative stuff about with other attractions/restaurants/bars/hotels/etc. Just have a negative description. --(WT-en) Evan 00:34, 20 Jan 2004 (EST)

 * Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and start writing a few negative reviews (like the RP). I figure travellers deserve to know about a place that is cheap (for london) and does have a fantastic location.  They just also deserve to know that the in-hall showers don't work so well. -- (WT-en) Mark 01:25, 20 Jan 2004 (EST)

 * We should not review mediocre stuff ("this place was not the best") or places with small problems ("I waited 5 minutes for the receptionist"). But if a place is really, really horrible ("our room was covered in cockroaches and there was a dead guy in the shower!"), we owe it to our readers to warn them. Of course, there should be a definite reason (not just "it sucked!"), and if others disagree, they will probably edit until an "objective view" emerges. -- (WT-en) Nils 09:16, 7 Apr 2004 (EDT)

 * Warning about tourist traps is definitely what I would expect of a decent travel guide. I would be happy not to repeat the mistakes others made. In fact I'd consider this piece of information one of the most valuable and certainly not a waste of space. Of course they have to keep the NPOV as anything else here. (WT-en) Wojsyl 14:29, 1 Jan 2005 (EST)

There are some things about this place that suck
Wow. I have no idea where to put the info, but man do I want to. I just stayed at the Regent's Palace in London, and was pretty unhappy with it. I had booked a room with a hall shower having experienced hall showers in Paris and several locations in Switzerland, where they were perfectly acceptable, but at the Regent's Palace they were mostly broken, and in some cases dirty, and locked most of the time, so one had to ring up the cleaning staff to get into the shower! -- (WT-en) Mark 10:44, 8 Dec 2003 (PST)

Is there more to the this discussion?
"If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all" is a nice policy but I mean almost all guidebooks, save the pure propaganda, are unafraid to take a well deserved dig now and then. Should we take any omitted page to indicate a negative review (and we're holding our tongues)? Or just empty pages? Who is the target audience? For example, I travel a lot, and often times find myself in new cities looking for something to do or where to go next and I'd really appreciate hearing negative reviews. (WT-en) Emery 22:11, 8 Apr 2005

 * It's not about being goody-two-shoeses -- it's about not wasting a lot of time, space, and energy saying "don't go here". Like, finding out the address, phone number, opening hours, average prices, and URL of a restaurant just to say, "...and it's not worth the effort of going." If that's the case, I think it's a good indication that it's not worth our effort to make a listing for a place.

 * More than half of this page describes when to make exceptions for that: do you need to see more? Keeping attraction, restaurant, hotel and bar listings up-to-date is a lot of work, and it doesn't seem like a good use of volunteer time just so one person can practice clever ways of saying "tastes bad". --(WT-en) Evan 08:01, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * I see both sides of this view. In my opinion Wikivoyage's too new to start editing it: I'm thinking we're at the stage where the book's being written. We will eventuallly need to start removing crap pubs from the articles: For example, Norwich has over 300 pubs, listing all of them would be insane). But all these removals should be noted in the Talk pages, so people who think they should go back (eg the pub's become fantastic) don't need to re-research the contact details etc. (WT-en) Lionfish 08:55, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT) (2pm GMT really)

 * I think if you feel like going to the trouble of getting a pub's details and entering them, then listing it must be worthwhile. I imagine that the converse is also true.

 * Meanwhile, did you know that you can set your timezone offset to 0 in the preferences? That will cause Mediawiki to print your signature with GMT. -- (WT-en) Mark 09:13, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * Sorry, I meant 'BST' :P. I've had the correct time set in my preferences for a while now "Server time is now: 14:12 Local time display: 15:12". But when I use the ~ thing it seems to get it wrong (sorry for being Off topic). (WT-en) Lionfish 10:14, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * oh duh... I've just realized that it does that to me too. I'm actually in CEDT. -- (WT-en) Mark 10:19, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * One thing I've been doing recently is adding pubs etc I've not been to for the more rural parts of the cotswolds. I've added an 'unreviewed' note to them though. I know this is kinda bad, as this is suposed to be all 1st hand information but there's method in my madness: There are quite a few places in Morocco and Eastern Europe I'd like to comment about but I can't remember what they were called. If someone else had put the pub or hotel/hostel on the article already, even if they hadn't been, I'd have recognised it and been able to fill in the blanks. I'm hoping that putting in the well known pubs in the area (even the ones I've not been to or can't remember clearly) will help others add stuff later.(WT-en) Lionfish 12:32, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT) (5:34 BST)

 * Where does it say that this is supposed to be first hand information? I add stuff that I don't know first hand all the time.  I just leave the review part blank.  We've talked about it before and nobody's ever suggested that they thought it was a bad idea. -- (WT-en) Mark 14:30, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * Oh phew! I'm sure I saw that mentioned somewhere once. Lol, nm then :) (WT-en) Lionfish 15:01, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT) (8pm BST)

Removing negative reviews
So there have been some cases (eg. Ko Lanta) where places are removed because of a rather strict interpretation of this policy. In my opinion, some information ("this place is bad/overpriced") is better than no information (a deleted entry), and culling should only start to take place when we start nudging up and over the suggested maximum (5-10) of places per category. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:07, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)

 * I totally agree. What I like to do is to re-write totally negative reviews to point out that while there are some serious problems reported "at least it's a place to stay" or something like that. -- (WT-en) Mark 01:16, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)

 * I think it'd be fair to say that if a listing is one of the only 5-10 places listed for a destination, then maybe it meets the "prominence" requirement. --(WT-en) Evan 02:13, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)

 * Consensus! I've gone ahead and attempted to update the policy accordingly. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:49, 5 Oct 2005 (EDT)

single negative report should remove a place?
I have an interesting case to consider: Cerveceria Catalana:
 * was originally reported as recommended
 * then there was clearly a single negative report:
 * and then it was removed from the listings as a negative review

My considerations:
 * clearly the negative report was a single event, not a shared opinion of several wikivoyageers or based on several visits
 * it also looks a valid way to remove info on competitor: just edit review for it into negative, and someone else will do the dirty job for you, removing it at all, sooner or later

I propose a policy for anyone having a negative experience to discuss it first in article's talk page--and provide details of individual single event a person has in hand in most cases. And only basing on discussion, either remove the listing or agree on how to edit it.

Opinions? -(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:22, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

 * I think we can use common sense with this. Obviously some clear reason for removing a place should be given, but a longtime user nuking a restaurant with an edit summary of "they cloned my credit card and gave me food poisoning" is OK in my book, but obviously an anon nuking all restaurants except one is not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:57, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

 * How these can be applied to the specific case I refer to above? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 11:06, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

dealing with negative feedback in a prose
How should we deal with edits like this? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:22, 19 December 2009 (EST)

Marineland

 * What is the best way to handle the current situation with Marineland Niagara? They're mentioned prominently in multiple articles Niagara Falls (Ontario), Buffalo, Niagara Peninsula but have been the subject of repeated, damning publicity after the Toronto Star, one of three huge daily papers in the provincial capital, broke news of animals seriously ill or injured due to conditions at the park http://www.thestar.com/topic/marineland The story broke five months ago, but more bad news is continuing to find its way into the broadsheets even while the park is closed for the winter.
 * There have been ongoing protests at the site, which are mentioned briefly in the individual local listing here but are not identified in either the region article or Buffalo's article. The Ontario SPCA is now involved, as are provincial environmental authorities. This place has been operating since 1961 and is rather famous (so removing all mention under "avoid negative reviews" might not be feasible) but would it be reasonable to remove them from all but the local article and link to the newspaper reports in the one local listing? This does affect travellers as they will encounter angry mobs protesting the situation if they attempt to visit the site, but certainly the situation could change at any time were the park cleaned up or shut down. K7L (talk) 18:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Hotel tries to charge a guest £100 for posting a bad review
I thought that some might be interested in today's newspaper article about a hotel which charged a guest £100 after they posting a poor review online, quoting the small print of their terms. The hotel changed their mind after trading standards investigated. Another newspaper sent its travel editor to the hotel, who though it not bad for the price. AlasdairW (talk) 23:22, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Outrageous lawsuits like this are always a little bit comical and a lot of bit infuriating. The good news is that we're unlikely to be the target of these bullying tactics since we have a policy of not discussing bad and mediocre places (outside of the dangerous). —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * This was not a lawsuit - the hotel simply charged the card used to book the room. Their terms said "For every bad review left on any website, the group organiser will be charged a maximum £100 per review." I doubt that it would be a problem here because it would usually be difficult to link our description of a place to a specific guest staying there. The point to take away is to read the terms when booking, but mainly this has just been a topic of discussion and amusement here. AlasdairW (talk) 00:33, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Pardon me. Yes, this is good advice. Also, we should boycott companies which are unethical like this. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:42, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The Union Street Guest House in Hudson (New York) tried the same moronic stunt back in August (but for U$500); it backfired just as badly. We don't have listings for either of these places, but I think we'd just pull the WV listing and link to the incident in an edit summary or talk page if an establishment listed in one of our guides tried something this unethical. K7L (talk) 04:32, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

"Don't visit" list...
Do we have a summarised one, based on Warning boxes?ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't support such a list. As a travel guide, we among other things present safety information - and then leave it to our readers to choose whether to go to Country or Region X,Y or Z or not. To put it another way, this is a travel guide, not a "don't travel" guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:09, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ikan's concerns, but for maintenance purposes see: Category:Has_warning_box and Category:Has warning box with out of date warning. A warning box may only be on an article for a few days to warn of an industrial dispute, or for several years as a result of war, and I don't see any value for the reader in a manual list. AlasdairW (talk) 21:15, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Warningboxes are good, but they do not mean that a tourist must not visit a place. We don't want to get too negative about warnings. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:35, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear. I sometimes wonder whether we go too far with some warnings. We should not forget that, while most editors here are Westerners, we are writing for a global audience of people who can read English. For example, few Westerners (but not none) might be planning trips to Iraq at present, but for people from culturally similar neighbouring countries, visits to parts of Iraq are likely much less daunting, and it is not our place to discourage them from going. Nurg (talk) 09:35, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, though it's better to be on the careful side than not. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 10:38, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think Wikivoyage should ever be warning people not to visit a place, but we should absolutely let readers know if a major government advises against visiting a place. If the UK Foreign Office says  "don't go there", that is important information for readers to consider making their own decisions. But we don't need a separate list. Warning boxes are sufficient. Ground Zero (talk) 12:07, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree completely, and you said it better than I did. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 12:33, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

To reference the previous discussion about the USA article, I would say that government warnings not to go to a place in and of themselves are not grounds for us to put up warning boxes. Whether you like it or not, even Western governments sometimes issue such warnings for political reasons, so the determining factor should be what the situation on the ground actually is. If it is a war zone, we should have a warning box saying that it's a war zone. If gay people are likely to be lynched by the locals, we likewise should have a warning box saying that. But the mere fact that the British government issued a warning not to go there is not sufficient grounds for a warning box. And so, to the point of this thread, no, there should not be a "Don't visit" list. Warning boxes in the destination articles are sufficient. For instance, I put a warning box in the Uganda article stating that extreme homophobia is rampant, but if a gay person wants to visit Uganda despite that, it is not up to us to stop him from visiting; he still has every right to make that decision for himself. The dog2 (talk) 22:05, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

 * It seems a consensus has been reached. Thanks.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 07:11, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Not recommended places
I was wondering if it is appropriate to also add the places that are not recommended, to ensure that tourists are not scammed or run into unpleasant situations. Any opinions on this? —5.168.1.34 17:48, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Avoid negative reviews has some guidance. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Wikivoyage talk:Avoid negative reviews


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) awards

Five words
One of the traditions with the Webby Awards is that acceptance speeches can only be five words long. What should be the five-word speech for Wikitravel? --(WT-en) Evan 12:26, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Some ideas:

 * No longer a lonely planet.
 * Open content travel guides rock.
 * Free, complete, up-to-date, and reliable. ("up-to-date" may not be one word...)
 * The traveler comes first. (and...)
 * These guides are your fault.
 * Wiki makes guides more accurate.

 * You could substitute "current" for "up-to-date". But I kinda like the first one best. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 12:55, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Definitely #1!!! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 15:43, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

 * 1 is snarky and evil. I love it. =) (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:41, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Yep, #1 is snappy and witty. It gets my vote. (WT-en) WindHorse 00:00, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Maj likes that one best too. I'm a little bit wary of getting caught up in being an anti-brand. We're more than just "the opposite of Lonely Planet" (or any other proprietary travel guide). I guess that Wikitravel's well-enough established that maybe I don't need to worry about it. And, hell: it's a 5-word speech. Not exactly the cornerstone of people's perception of Wikivoyage. It'd be fun to mention Open Content, though; Maybe "Freedom makes planet less lonely"? Or collaboration: "Working together, planet's less lonely." I'm probably overthinking this. --(WT-en) Evan 10:12, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Number 1 is the only one acceptable, plus everyone's (and will continue to be) in favor of it which makes it consensus! -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 10:18, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Alternatively, Tim Wu, check district articles!, but I still prefer the lonely planet one. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 10:24, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I was trying to think of something similar but a little less weighted, like "A Rough Guide to a Lonely Planet", but can't get that nicely into 5 words that are as punchy as #1 – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 15:12, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Webby
Swept in from the Pub:

Just in case you haven't seen todays Logbook -- Wikitravel has won a Webby! Congratulations! (WT-en) Maj 10:11, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Excellent! I have added it to the news section on the main page. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 11:27, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * So where do we put our trophy? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 13:39, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I'd love to put it on the Main Page, but maybe we could put it on Project:Webby Award 2007? --(WT-en) Evan 14:08, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Hmmmm, personally I'd like to see it somewhere more prominent than on an obscure page like Project:Webby Award 2007, can't we put it in the disclaimer bar at the bottom or somewhere on the Main Page? That logo will make people sit up and take notice of the site if they're just passing by and that could increase the number of edits we get, which is a good thing! -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 15:19, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * How about we put it on the Main Page for a few days, and we put something in MediaWiki:Sitenotice (which makes a banner across the top of every page) about it? And let's have a page dedicated to the award to link to, too.

 * Can someone who's got better Main-Page-editing-chops than myself put it on the front page? --(WT-en) Evan 15:31, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

I've uploaded a couple of images to choose from. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 15:54, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I've added it to the news item for now... long-term handling to be determined. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 16:11, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Since Wikitravel is certain to win additional awards as time goes by, I've started Project:Awards. I think we should link to this from somewhere on the Main page, and if not there certainly from the Project page. Suppose we were to change the opening blurb to "Wikivoyage is an award-winning project..."? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 08:30, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Vfd discussion
Moved discussion from Travellers' pub.

There are several WT project pages that have nothing to do with Wikivoyage and are not needed for historical purposes. We will develop our own history as time passes and these pages are from a fork that really has nothing to do with us and are not needed for any type of history that applies to Wikivoyage. I think these pages and links to them should be deleted. And any other pages that apply to WT only and are not needed to justify policies we are continuing on Wikivoyage. All of these pages will have equivalent Wikivoyage pages now and in the future. If someone wants to know the information covered in those pages, then they should visit WT. What are the thoughts of others? Should we start a discussion page on this? - Tom Holland (Xltel) (talk) 07:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Project:10K Party
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) awards
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) milestones
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) press coverage
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) logo contest
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) logo contest entries
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) logo contest results
 * Project:Archive of Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage) logo voting page
 * Oppose. Bear in mind that the history of Wikitravel up to the last data dump IS our history, along with the history of Wikivoyage between the fork and the reconnect, and all that has happened since. We who were Wikitravel have no need to pretend that we were not Wikitravel. Our disagreement was not with the community of contributors or with our past, it was with IB, who in spite of owning the name and the server, are not the people or the content. I do not support suppression or denial of that history. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:07, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your point and I agree totally that Wikitravel is "MY" history and our history and I am not ever going to pretend it was not my/our history. This is "our" history and I am not suggesting anyone pretend we did not come from Wikitravel or that there is any disagreement with the Wikitravel community in the past. I have been a big part of that Wikitravel past very active as an Administrator/contributor and will be a part of the future of WV. I have tried my best to help WV with edits and cleanup where I could and will continue. But as time goes on some of these older pages may get a bit more muddy and confusing to new Wikivoyagers. We have changed "Wikitravel" to "Wikivoyage" just about everywhere on the site including talk pages when were talking specifically about Wiki""travel"". To be honest I don't really like that very much and it causes additional confusion in my opinion, but I figured there were legal issues (I apologize I have not read all the comments and discussions in that area). I never thought it was a purge of "our" history. When I was on Wikitravel in my past life and put comments on a talk pages and mentioned Wikitravel it was about Wikitravel, but now all my references and everyone's references to Wikitravel have been changed to Wikivoyage. If you go to User talk:Xltel/Mar 2006 you can see where I was welcomed to "Wikivoyage" in December 2005, but we know that is not the case. I am now on Wikivoyage and as we go forward I expect we will get farther apart from the content, policies, goals and overall objectives of Wikitravel. New people will have new ideas and as time goes on we will move farther apart from where WT and WV are now. Please don't think I have any difference in agreement whatsoever in your comments, just looking for some better organization on the old Wikitravel content going forward, maybe deleting is not the solution and possibly the way it is now is the best way to keep it. My comment on not needing it for historical purposes really applies to they are not needed to explain development of policy. Obviously, there is no rush or need to delete anything and we can discuss organization of our history going forward. Happy New Year! - Tom Holland (Xltel) (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Tom, next time when you nominate something for deletion, please do so at Votes for deletion. @Peter, I agree with you but then at-least we should have some information on this site about our (WV) background so that people who will join this community sooner may learn about our history. Happy new year everybody! --Saqib (talk) 18:46, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree with Peter. These historical pages should be kept, albeit perhaps in an archive section or tagged as historical.
 * I also agree with Tom, and perhaps go farther than he would. To me it seems obvious that, except where there are compelling legal reasons not to, the WT->WV substitutions on talk pages should all be undone. Pashley (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur, though I fear it may be too late for the latter. LtPowers (talk) 22:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The WT→WV substititions are particularly annoying on pages such as User:(WT-en) IBobi, where it says that Internet Brands owns Wikivoyage. It would be nice to have those undone, but maybe there are legal reasons not to. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We should try and undo substitutions that don't make sense by hand. Most substitutions were OK, though, since most mentions are just referring to our project, and it is the same project, albeit with less-douchey hosts and a different name. --Peter Talk 23:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Keep per Peter S. --Peter Talk 23:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Outcome: kept. --Peter Talk 22:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Archived awards and mentions for Wikitravel (not Wikivoyage)

Google Blog Search
Swept in from the Travellers' pub:

So cool. Google Blog Search. Type in 'wikitravel' and see what the bloggers say. (WT-en) Nzpcmad 17:31, 14 Sep 2005 (EDT)

 * Another useful feature: When you do the search, click on "Sorted by date" at the top on the RHS and then scroll down to the bottom. You'll see "Subscribe: Atom (10 results - 100 results) RSS (10 results - 100 results)". Pick the one you want and paste the link as a subscription into your favourite RSS reader. That way anytime someone blogs about Wikitravel you'll get a notification. --(WT-en) Nzpcmad 15:22, 25 Sep 2005 (EDT)


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Babel

Untitled
Interwikiista extraordinaire* User:(WT-en) Episteme started uploading the babel templates here, and I think they're useful for Wikivoyagers. I'm not sure, however, where to link to them (I added them to Project:Help for now).

This idea started with Wikimedia, and I think at least the basics translate for Wikivoyage. But I also know that userboxes have been really controversial on Wikipedia, so there may be some ideas about being careful with these.

Let's get this started for Wikivoyage, and see what we need to adapt for local use. --(WT-en) Evan 12:30, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

* How many languages are there in that description?

 * I'm OK with Babel but I really don't want to see any of that "I'm a religious gay Republican furry who likes toy trains!" userbox-crap on Wikivoyage... here's hoping we can someday move the User space entirely to World66. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:44, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

 * And regarding the *, I can count Latin (inter, extra), Hawaiian (wiki), Spanish (-ista), and French (ordinaire). (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:44, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Can we just copy the Babel language templates from wikipedia? (WT-en) Vivafelis 21:03, 13 July 2006 (EDT)

So it looks like we can't get more than 5 languages on our Babel templates on our userpages. Am I seeing that right? --(WT-en) Zephyros 01:25, 30 November 2006 (EST)

let's use categories!
See Project:Categories (please leave your comments there). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 12:24, 28 November 2006 (EST)

Azerbaijani Addition
Guys, I can only find Turkish, but I want to add Azerbaijani to the list- how can I do that? Thanks!!

new language won't show in Babel box
I just added Hindi to the list and created the template boxes for it, what is the final step I'm missing so that they will actually display when added to the Babel box? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:50, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

 * Whatever it is I didn't have to do it on Shared, it works right away... hmmm.... – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:53, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Maximum
Is there a reason why I can 'only' use 6 languages? And why does it need the number of languages as an input anyway? Keep up the good work! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Sjors (talk • contribs)

 * There are actually separate templates for each one... Template:Babel-2, Template:Babel-3, etc. Not sure how many you were aiming for, but I just created Babel-7 and Babel-9, so if it was 7 or 9, you were just having problems because nobody had created the templates yet. I'm hoping you speak 9 languages, that would give User:(WT-en) Jpatokal something new to strive towards. If you speak 10+ languages, then I shall ask for proof. :)  – (WT-en) cacahuate   talk 19:51, 6 August 2007 (EDT)
 * Well "speaking" is a bit overstated. I personally use the chat-with-a-taxi-driver criterion and at least I can "understand written material or simple questions" in the languages I mentioned, especially when I take a lot of time for it and use some tools. It's a hobby, though unfortunately I do not have a lot of time for it and my lack of memory does not help either. Many languages are quite similar on a basic level, so the list grows quickly. (WT-en) Sjors 11:32, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
 * People that can master that many languages simply amaze me. If I don't use a language on a daily basis I'd loose it in no time. Met an interesting individual the other day (a guard at Fort Klapperkop in Pretoria) that greeted us in 5 of South Africas official languages. My girlfriend answered in Portuguese expecting to leave him baffled, but he promptly started a conversation in Portuguese with her. Turns out he speaks not only all 11 official South African languages, but also French, German, Greek and Portuguese. --(WT-en) Nick 16:02, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Welsh addition
I've added Welsh (cy) templates. I've used the text from Wiki Commons, however I don't think the definitions tie up that well with those for existing languages on Wikivoyage (plus it only had definitions for cy-1, cy-2 and cy-3). So if anyone speaks "formal" Welsh better than me please plunge forward and improve them. (WT-en) Tarr3n 06:18, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Colors
I'd like to suggest modifying the colors for a more even progression from -1 to -4 (at least). Any thoughts? (WT-en) LtPowers 22:31, 15 March 2009 (EDT)
 * I changed the colors a few days ago. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:23, 27 March 2009 (EDT)

slovenian
How come some of the Slovenian templates are messed up? (WT-en) Ctoocheck 19:24, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

 * They aren't, they just haven't been created yet.... if you speak the language, please go ahead and create them.... you can copy the templates from another language to get the same colors, etc.... then change the wording. Thanks! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 20:09, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

How to create templates? @cacahuate Mayon V (talk) 00:22, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

How to Create Templates
Maybe I'm just dense, but it says "just create one" on the front page, leaving me wondering how you create a template (these templates)? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 04:00, 16 December 2009 (EST)
 * See Project:Mediawiki templates. Just create it the way you would any other article.  Copy the code from an existing set of templates and modify as appropriate.  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:44, 16 December 2009 (EST)

Tell me where exactly on Project:MediaWiki I can create template? Still confusing. Mayon V (talk) 00:06, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Alphabetical order
Are the languages supposed to be an alphabetical by language name or language code? Currently, Croatian and Swedish are by name, but most others are by code. (WT-en) –sumone10154 23:07, 30 January 2011 (EST)

 * I believe it's supposed to be by code, although I'm not sure why. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 02:53, 31 January 2011 (EST)

 * Yes, it would be more user friendly by name. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:57, 31 January 2011 (EST)

 * Sorry Peter, I'm not sure what you mean (and I think you're contradicting yourself) when you respond to "I believe it's supposed to be by code" with "Yes it would be more user friendly by name" Did you mean no? (WT-en) –sumone10154 17:43, 31 January 2011 (EST)

 * "Supposed to be" meaning in this case 'someone tried to arrange it that way' rather than 'it would be good to arrange it that way'. So it's not contradictory.  (WT-en) LtPowers 18:56, 31 January 2011 (EST)

 * Oh ok, then I'll arrange it by language name. (WT-en) –sumone10154 22:14, 31 January 2011 (EST)

A new Babel template
Swept from the pub:

I propose creating a new Babel template similar to the one on Wikipedia. That way, we won't need to have 11 separate Babel templates, and we would only use one template. The eleven currently existing templates would redirect to the new one. – sumone10154 ( talk ) 23:34, 7 October 2012 (CEST)

 * The babel extension works (see Special:Version and mw:Extension:Babel) so you should decide if you want to merge the templates, use the extension, or leave thing as is. Allen4names (talk) 04:39, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Babel templates
Swept from the pub:

RfC I'd like some feedback on the use of Babel categories and templates. First off, I would like to recommend that all -0 categories and templates other than en-0 be deleted and removed: they serve no actual function in collaboration (how does it help me if two of us don't know any Thai?) It is worth noting if contributors here don't know English, though, as this is an English-language edition of Wikivoyage.

Furthermore, I'd like to recommend against having the templates at all, since the Babel Extension is activated here and all I need to do is add (e.g.) and I will be automatically categorized. Thoughts? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems logical -- A l i c e ✉ 08:15, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * xx-0 templates could possibly be useful (for example, a user lives in Thailand, but doesnt speak Thai), but I do agree that the categories are useless.
 * I strongly oppose deletion of the templates; many users aren't familiar with the extension. It's also nice to be able to customize the colors. – sumone10154 ( talk ) 09:29, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that xx-0 templates may be useful if a user might be expected to know a language (e.g. by residence or interests) but doesn't know that language. I don't see why the templates would make any harm. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Using the extension instead of templates would greatly simplify maintenance. But, I agree with Sumone10154 that it's nice to be able to use our own colors; I adjusted them back in '09 to make a more consistent spectrum from -5 to -0.  What colors does the Babel extension use?  LtPowers (talk) 16:05, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Colors I don't mean to be rude, but you can see yourself: copy and paste into the Graffiti wall. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:38, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose so, but I thought perhaps discussion of it would assist others so that folks reading this discussion in the future would be able to see what we were talking about without having to assemble a reference themselves. That said, the extension's colors are very close to ours so I have no objection to using the extension over the templates.  But really, we should be discussing this at Wikivoyage talk:Babel.  LtPowers (talk) 14:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Moved To. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:21, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Discontinue templates
Continued from pub discussion above

RfC I'd like some feedback on the use of Babel categories and templates. First off, I would like to recommend that all -0 categories and templates other than en-0 be deleted and removed: they serve no actual function in collaboration (how does it help me if two of us don't know any Thai?) It is worth noting if contributors here don't know English, though, as this is an English-language edition of Wikivoyage.

Furthermore, I'd like to recommend against having the templates at all, since the Babel Extension is activated here and all I need to do is add (e.g.) and I will be automatically categorized. Thoughts? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:21, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason not to get rid of the templates, then? --Peter Talk 20:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The Babel extension adds a header and a footer. You can get hide while logged in by adding the style rules below to your Special:MyPage/common.css page.

 * JavaScript may also be used but it can be disabled. Allen4names (talk) 19:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Czech language should be 'cs' (not 'cz')
The Czech language has a different code from the country code.

Minusf (talk) 06:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Babel Latin
There is no Babel Template for Latin. Can somebody create a Babel Latin Template? Thank you -- Feuermond16 (talk) 12:26, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't need a Latin template. It's a dead language, and being able to contribute in Latin is no use to any Wikivoyage project. Powers (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * While there will probably never be a Latin edition of Wikivoyage, we should support Latin in the template because:
 * Travelers throughout at least the Western world can encounter Latin inscriptions wherever they go. I regularly see some of them on short walks from my house in San Jose.
 * Programmers who say that nobody will ever use something in a particular manner are usually wrong.
 * The Babel template gave the OP an incorrect result when he tried to specify Latin, (and I independently fell into the same trap). So, since it already needs to be fixed, why not just enable the language, instead of trying to figure out how to handle the error?
 * The Wikipedia template already produces Babel boxes for all (?) ISO 639 language codes. Can we transclude that into our Babel template? Peter Chastain (talk) 01:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If it does no harm, why not? Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If I'm understanding correctly there are two issues: first, since it's a userpage template, if someone wants to put French, Latin, Esperanto, or Klingon in it I don't see the problem - it only appears on a userpage, so, as Hobbitschuster says, there's no harm. Second, as far as I can tell w:Template:User is completely unrelated to Babel - I assume you meant a different template? -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:40, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ryan. When I set up my Wikipedia user page, I was unaware that WP had a template called Babel. Copying code from other users' pages, I created my babelboxes with a series of lines like  . I am frankly mystified by the source code for both templates but can tell you that    works at es-wikivoyage. Peter Chastain (talk) 15:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Templates for Klingon or Latin may not do any harm, but I wasn't going go to the effort to create them just for the sake of having them... because, as I said, they're not needed. That said, Template:User la-2already exists, incorrectly reporting the Laotian language instead of Latin. (Lao is :lo, not :la). That should be either repaired or deleted. Powers (talk) 20:59, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Converted to Lua
Per the suggestion of Peter Chastain I've imported the Wikipedia version of Template:Babel. If there are any issues we can easily revert to the older version. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:11, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ryan, it looks good from here. Thanks much! Peter Chastain (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Template:User en-5 of babel combinations missing
Seems Template:User en-5 is missing of the Template:Babel combinations. Somebody forget to import it form the 'pedia? Jukeboksi (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We don't use -5 babel templates. You can see the full list at Babel. We already have six levels for each language (0-4, plus native); is that not enough? Powers (talk) 00:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. Template:User en-4 works. Jukeboksi (talk) 00:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

How to do the translating? Mayon V (talk) 23:49, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

New Templet Kurdish (ku)
I made a new Templet of My Language (Kurdish) in the English Language so as to be understood by everyone... so do I need to mack the text in Kurdish or it is better to remain in English Words? Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 15:42, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Babel templates are always in the language being mentioned, so the text of Kurdish Babel should be in Kurdish. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

 * Confiermed and I will Translate it very soon Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 7:38, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

 * It Has been Done and I Translated The Babel Templet Kurdish (ku) into my Native language (Kurdish)...Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 00:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Update to use the extension?
Is there some reason this page still tells about using the babel template instead of the extension (? The latter was introduced for performance reason, I suppose, and is now the recommended way. No big deal if we use templates, but if there is no specific reason I think it makes sense to update. --LPfi (talk) 08:06, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Only reason not do change is that the module does not have any user documentation. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:04, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Replace all user language templates with #babel
Should I run a bot to replace uses of user language templates such as user en and of the use of babel? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:07, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * All reference would then use #babel and all 300+ user template can be deleted. Bot would be editing other users pages. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:15, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Hmm... That sounds like a bit of a stretch. I say 'replace' if it's possible in an easy way. But on the other side, May I ask whats wrong with the existing template?  Arep   Ticous                                                    01:02, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not difficult at all, have the code already written to make the change. Reason the topic started was because of a discussion on removing templates that were not needed. In this case just one to maintain rather than hundreds. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:27, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Are there cases where the babel templates are mixed with other user boxes? I know I've seen examples on Wikipedia, where I think just substituting the babel templates with the module would not work. I suppose one should check for such cases while doing the substitution and think once more about deleting templates when we know whether the module works in all cases. Furthermore, on Wikpedia there was a recommendation to subst the babel templates to lessen burden on the servers. Does the substitution code handle substed babel templates? --LPfi (talk) 12:22, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I have been visually checking the edits suggested by the bot and have not seen any cases of this. There are some formatted inside tables or other html tags so I have left these as separate calls rather than gathering them into one call with multi parameters. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:58, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Bikol addition
I added my native language Bikol but it kept on saying about one's abilty in English. Mayon V (talk) 10:41, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Why some boxes are hidden?
I'm afraid to add more Philippine languages already available on "phrasebooks".

Chinese characters for Minnan.
Hey guys, could someone please add in the Chinese characters for Minnan/Hokkien/Taiwanese in the Babel box. It's very rare to write Minnan in Peh-oe-ji (Roman alphabet), and virtually every Minnan speaker writes with Chinese characters. The version of Babel on Wikipedia already has the Chinese characters, so you can just copy it over from there. Otherwise, could someone please point me to the page this data is stored in so I can edit it myself? Thanks. The dog2 (talk) 17:33, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

title: Wikivoyage talk:Babel


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense

Ol' faithful
From Norwegian phrasebook:
 * My hovercraft is full of eels. : Luftputebåten min er full av åler. (...)

 * Ya know, I never thought the bad jokes page would ever be useful, but apparently this phrase helps to break the ice with Norwegians. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 03:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)
 * This page is fantastic (not as childish as uncyclopedia). Shame the legalized jokes are not funny (I mean a serious article on the moon? obviously nobody searches moon seriously!), I would love to create the page nowhere... --(WT-en) Squidonius 05:47, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

"Funny edit summaries" links aren't right
The links under the section "Funny edit summaries" lead to entirely different edits. They all seem to date from the Wikitravel days. Perhaps the "diff" and "oldid" numbers changed when the fork happened, or something? — Athelwulf [T]/[C] 22:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * They did. Are you volunteering to fix them?  =)  Powers (talk) 00:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Well I can give it a shot if I get bored with the pages I'm working on. :p — Athelwulf [T]/[C] 03:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense and sub-pages
The cognitive dissonance inherent in the existence of this page has always vexed me. We can't both be opposed to vandalism and host shrines to vandals. Now, to complicate matters further, we've got a new user who's gone ahead and created their very own "bad joke" article, despite the fact that the page is ostensibly intended only as a repository for "found vandalism" that we consider too amusing or well-written to be deleted. Now I'm not insinuating that this new user didn't mean well or was acting in bad faith; in fact, that pretty much goes to the heart of the point I'm trying to make here. It's easy to get confused. Let's avoid sending mixed messages, especially about vandalism. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

 * I think we ought to remove the nonsense pages written by individual users but keep our own joke articles organized on the page. So overall, I vote keep. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 22:44, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * SelfieCity - importantly, this is a different page than the archived April Fool's joke articles. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, should have checked closer. Yes, WV:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense should definitely be deleted. My vote, therefore, is delete. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 22:54, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Which, come to think of it, only adds another layer to the confusion. "Vandalism is not allowed, but if you're really good at vandalism, we've got our own page where your edits will be preserved and enjoyed forever and ever. But you're not allowed to create an article specifically as a joke - it has to be a disruptive edit to an actual article (but remember, vandalism is not allowed!) Except one day a year you are allowed to create an article as a joke..." All those twists and turns just to avoid deleting something someone once long ago found funny? It's ridiculous. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Delete, and I would support doing away with the April Fool's Day tradition, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyone else? Ground Zero, what do you think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I was holding off on commenting until I finished reading it. There was some funny stuff there. But it seems that the consensus is strongly against fun and humour, so I guess it will be deleted. Ground Zero (talk) 02:38, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's fun and humour that we're against. There are two things, though: 1) we're a travel guide, and 2) even with the deletions of the bad jokes, we will still have WV:Joke articles. Plus, if there's any of the "bad jokes" that really are funny, we can keep specifically those and delete the rest. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 03:11, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not against fun and humor; I'm against double standards and in favor of clarity on what principles we stand for. Either we're against vandalism or we're not. Either joke articles are allowed or they're not. If we're twisting logic into pretzels to justify the existence of this page, there better be a really compelling upside. I just don't see one here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We can be against tagging but in favour of street art. But I agree that arguing over this line has little benefit to a travel guide. --Inas (talk) 03:56, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Keep please! I log back in to Wikivoyage after long and this is the first thing I see on my Watchlist! Wikivoyage shouldn't become boring and bureaucratic like Wikipedia. We can be against Vandalism and yet be in favour of jokes. We can be against vandalism, but be gentle with the vandal, laugh at his or her joke, and gently steer them towards better edits. This was what Wikivoyage stood for, and I would be in favour of continuing the tradition. Ravikiran (talk) 04:02, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand "this was what Wikivoyage stood for" back when site traffic was a small fraction of what it is now and we weren't linked to Wikipedia and its sister sites under the WMF umbrella. But it's a whole different ballgame now, and we've evolved to meet new challenges we never faced back in the old days. With all due respect, our experiences in dealing with the more extreme types of vandalism that have come to the forefront during the time you were inactive - especially with persistent long-term abusers who find their way here from Wikipedia - has really brought into stark relief how laughably inadequate the old policy of "be[ing] gentle with the vandal, laugh[ing] at his or her joke, and gently steer[ing] them towards better edits" would be if it were still in effect today. Having a page that incongruently celebrates vandalism - however funny, however well-written - is really out of step with the unfortunate reality of what we've had to deal with lately. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not to be too blunt or rude here, but I invite anyone who can turn our recurring vandals into constructive contributors. If anyone wants to do that, go ahead, but I think what we've learned from years of experience is that we can't "gently steer [vandals] towards better edits." Users who add to the top of the California article, "Destroy X" etc. are never going to become good contributors. Prove me wrong. According to page information the whole list at WV:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense gets 57 views a month. If we delete it, we'll still have WV:Joke articles. --Comment by  Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 14:14, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * To be clear, though, please don't try to turn our recurring vandals into constructive contributors, because WV:Deny recognition says not to do so. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 23:09, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Keep. I think we can still enjoy jokes and unintentional humour. I doubt these "double standards" confuse anyone. The persisting vandals are hardy going to write joke articles, and if the do, that is much better than them vandalizing. I suppose very little or none of the content suggested for deletion was written as vandalism. Rather they might have been test edits. I hope we can still make a distinction between vandals and bored by-passers. I think the latter can just be reverted in most cases, but following the old policy when dealing with these does no harm (other than that the time could perhaps have been better used). --LPfi (talk) 07:47, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * So "Jozona is the 51st state found by ranch workers. It's main atraction is the John Kerry funslide located on Apple Head Street. On June 13th 2005 Congress aproved the state constitution." was a test? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 14:16, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Weak keep. The page is funny and harmless. I agree with LPfi's reasoning about double standards. The idea that because we're becoming a big site like Wikipedia we can't have pages like this doesn't hold water—Wikipedia has a page like this too, see w:Wikipedia:Best of BJAODN. We shouldn't get so intense about fighting vandalism that it stops us from enjoying ourselves. (By the way, it is possible for someone who starts off with a joke article to become a productive contributor. For long-term abusers it's probably hopeless, but for one-off vandals it's very much possible.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:22, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Weak keep. The page needs to be massively trimmed. It should have an introduction. It should not contain content added by vandals, but good faith edits which end up being funny. It is appropriate sometimes to use moderate humour to describe things, particularly what not to say because of how a local may misunderstand. These funny excerpts would not be removed and can be quoted on this page. It may also be ammussing to compare advice written today with that when the site was much younger. AlasdairW (talk) 10:19, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. It seems that I was premature is calling a consensus, do I'll clarify my position. I agree with AlisdairW that a culling would be good. I think it is clear from the page that we are not rewarding vandals, and that these edits were aimed at injecting humour, rather than at being disruptive. There are one or two (taking the subway to Iguazu Falls) that probably should have been left in the articles. Ground Zero (talk) 12:23, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Weak Keep Well, the editors DO need to enjoy themselves. But other than that, i do not see why this topic is necessary. Especially in a travel guide. One of the other reasons i am voting for keep is because, even wikipedia has a humorous page where we can see bad unblock requests.  Arep   Ticous                                                    02:24, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

 * DENY obvious vandal edits, Weak keep on good faith contributions such as satires on actual places, or traveller concerns when wrtitten. I would also suggest a rethink of the All Fools Day article approach. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:23, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Result: 21 days, keep. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 22:57, 23 May 2019 (UTC)


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense/Mars

Nah, don't bother. It's ruined now. All ruined. --(WT-en) Sigmundur 05:56, 21 July 2012 (EDT)

Mars and other Extraterrestrial Destinations
Is there a reason there is no page for Mars and other visitable places in outer space or has just no one gotten around to writing it yet? Nicole Sharp (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Because this is a travel web site not an encyclopaedia. There are pages for Space and the Moon, which are theoretically reachable if you are rich enough. Once it is possible to purchase a trip to Mars then there should be page here too. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Well as long as we are doing theoretical, anyone with a few billion dollars can go to Mars, we have the technology, just not the public support for a government-funded mission :-(. A number of nearby asteroids are also reachable with enough money.  The United States was planning missions to Jupiter back in the 1950s, and we had the technology back then.  We should have been to Alpha Centauri by now.  Nicole Sharp (talk) 13:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

 * But people have travelled to space and to the moon. How could you make a travel guide about a place no one has ever been? Texugo (talk) 14:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

 * Until someone actually sets foot on Mars a guide to traveling there would be purely speculative. Since Wikivoyage guides are meant to provide useful travel advice, and since for now the most accurate advice on traveling to Mars is that it cannot be done, an article on the subject would be out of scope for our guides. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

 * I just saw as a featured destination on the Main Page that Narnia is an acceptable article? Surely it is easier to get to Mars than Narnia?  Can I also add additional fictional locations then?  Nicole Sharp (talk) 01:09, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 * That's our April Fool's Day thing. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Also saw that Atlantis has an article but Lemuria does not. I'm sure the Lemurians (Indian Ocean, at war with the Atlanteans) are very upset about that, we should make an article for them as well....  Nicole Sharp (talk) 01:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Our policy on joke articles is spelled out here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 * So can I add additional fictional locations prefaced with "Wikivoyage:Joke_articles/" to keep it in that namespace? Do you think they should be linked to science-fiction tourism as well?  Nicole Sharp (talk) 01:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

 * We only make one joke article a year for April Fools' (or a few if they are interrelated). That is a community effort and everyone works on preparing the article together. Apart from that, you're not really allowed to simply create joke articles for the fun of it. That's not really fulfilling our goals. JamesA  >talk 01:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Mars. Texugo (talk) 02:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it about travel or places? if about places it should be, if about travel also, "usefull information for travellers", places are usefull for travellers, mars is a real place. hence mars is useful for travellers and wikivoyage dont store all the useful information.--167.57.182.228 22:14, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

 * It's not useful for travelers because there's currently no way for anyone to travel to Mars. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

VfD discussion
This article formed the basis for our April Fools 2018 article, which is much better. Searching "Mars (planet)" in the search bar should lead to this new article, rather than the old. Plus, our April Fools article will have to move into this very named slot tomorrow. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:36, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. We can't copy and delete without breaking attribution under the free licence. And no, 1 April pieces go in Joke articles which is not the same "slot" as Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. K7L (talk) 00:36, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Good. Thanks for clearing this up. However, I still think "Mars (planet)" should direct to the April Fools one. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:57, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. K7L (talk) 01:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

We can close this, correct? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

 * Result: kept. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Bar listings

Well Drink
This guide suggest providing a guide price for a "well drink". Is this some kind of North American terminology that we don't have this side of the pond? Could someone please describe it to me and I'll see if I can add the appropriate Commonwealth English example to the guide.

 * Nevah hoid and Google doesn't seem to know what this is either (I just get lots of mis-peelings of "well-priced"). Howsabout just a beer and a cocktail? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:06, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * It's a North American term refering to a cocktail mixed with the cheapest liquors at the bar, which in North America will usually have a shallow metal bin holding the cheapest (and therefore most-used) bottles just behind the bar. This is done to increase serving speed. -- (WT-en) Mark 06:40, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * FWIW, the British term (at least as adopted in South-East Asia) for this is a "house pour", at least assuming the 'well drink' is also usually limited to one spirit & one mixer (gin and tonic, rum and coke, etc). I still think 'cocktail' is the path of least resistance. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:52, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * There you go, although there was already some language in there about fitting to the local drinking tradition, I reckon it's better if contributors don't have to scratch their heads and ask "What the heck is a well drink?" -- (WT-en) Mark 07:28, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * This is all correct. A cocktail where you choose the liquor is a "call drink", like "Ketel One and soda" or whatever. --(WT-en) Evan 12:11, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * I've not heard the term "house pour" either. I can't pretend to be an expert in alcohol parlance, though. I think most pubs would call this drink "house spirit & mixer" in their advertising / tariff. "House spirit" refers to the cheapest of a specific spirit, eg. vodka (cf. "house wine"). -- (WT-en) Owl 17:05, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * Does "cocktail" work? --(WT-en) Evan 20:40, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * Annoyingly, no. I don't think I've ever heard of "shot + mixer" referred to as a "cocktail" -- I think perhaps a cocktail needs to have at least two alcoholic drinks in it (even if one is a nominal drink like Grand Marnier). Moreover, cocktails seem to come in three sizes here: shooter, long and pitcher, which are priced accordingly. I think "shot + mixer" or "house spirit & mixer" is probably the best you can do in UK terminology. -- (WT-en) Owl 02:04, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Gack. How about we forget all this silliness and just suggest including the price of a standard drink, and suggest a draft beer as an example? (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:00, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

 * The guide already suggests giving a price for draught beer. It makes sense to give one beer price and one spirit price because often (in the UK at least) the two prices don't correlate to each other. Maybe just "price of other popular drink at this bar", since at a wine bar it would be nice to know the price of a glass of wine, I guess, and more important than the price of a vodka&tonic. -- (WT-en) Owl 03:28, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Strip Clubs or Topless Clubs
Swept in from the Pub:

I don't know if this issue has been addressed before, but do we list "nudie bars?" LOL What sort of euphemism to use for a heading? (WT-en) gamweb 21:43, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

 * They go under "drink," along with any other nightclub. There are restrictions, though, per Project:Sex tourism policy. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:49, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Thanks, I figured they would fall under "drink," however, I was looking for an subtitle other than "Night Club" or "Tavern" to put them under. How about "Adult Club?" (WT-en) gamweb 17:25, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

 * If there are a bunch in one article, I'd just list them under "Strip clubs"—"Adult club" sounds too euphemistic. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:46, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

title: Wikivoyage talk:Bar listings