text:
Talk:Oulu

What region?
Uh-oh -- the region division as currently listed in Finland doesn't really include the Oulu Province area. Is it Western Finland or Finnish Lapland? Should Finnish Lapland be renamed the more inclusive Northern Finland, or should the two be split? (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:46, 31 May 2005 (EDT)

 * Hmm, turns out Oulu is now listed under Central Finland instead. Good enough, perhaps...  (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:01, 31 May 2005 (EDT)

 * For the record: Oulu is now (since quite some time?) in the Western Oulu region of Northern Finland. --LPfi (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Tietomaa
According to wikipedia: The first science center was Urania founded in Berlin in 1888 [1] [2]. The Academy of Science of Saint Louis (founded in 1856) created the Saint Louis Museum of Science and Natural History in 1959 (Saint Louis Science Center), but generally science centers are a product of the 1960s and later. In the United Kingdom, many of them were founded as Millennium projects, with funding from the National Lotteries Fund.

Tietomaa was founded in 1988. —The preceding comment was added by Ä Vinnis Persön (talk • contribs)

Adding Oulu Airport content twice
A few hours ago I added all the content from the Oulu Airport article (together with a comment that some of it probably isn't relevant enough to keep), and wrote a note in the pub. Now TT added everything again, why? ϒψιλον (talk ) 21:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

 * (edit conflict) I was editing on a phone, and there was an edit conflict, so I copied and pasted what I'd done (copy edits, as noted in my last summary) without overwriting what was already there. You'll see that it's all fixed now. Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:03, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

 * OK :) ϒψιλον  (talk ) 21:06, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Oulu Airport history
I don't think most travellers care at all about the history of an airport, but rather, readers of an encyclopedia would. However, I'm moving the section about the history of the airport here, in case anyone feels like it's interesting enough to merit a very brief summary, or perhaps something from the last paragraph:

History
The first aerodrome in Oulu was opened in October 1936, and the first flight was flown on 15 June 1939 by the airline Aero Oy with the route being Helsinki-Tampere-Oulu-Kemi. Back then, the aerodrome was located in Oritkari, the other side of the Kempeleenlahti bay, south of the city centre. Later on, the route was extended, going all the way to Petsamo and stopping at more important places en-route. The route was only open in the summertime until the Continuation War when they noticed that the runway was too small for DC-2 planes. No passenger flights were flown to Oulu for almost a decade.

At the end of 1949, the Council of State decided to build a bigger airport to serve Oulu, and the location was chosen to be Oulunsalo. On 30 June 1953, the new airport was opened. The first plane landed on the, then still gravel-paved runway, at 11:15. The flight was operated by, once again, Aero Oy and the plane was a DC-3.

Since then, the airport has faced several renovations, and the first part of the current terminal was opened in 1973. The terminal was greatly expanded in 1994 and 2011. Nowadays the airport has one 2,500-m runway.

The airport is the second busiest in the country with nearly a million yearly passengers. Alongside commercial flights, the airport is also extensively used as a military training site by the Finnish Air Force. The terminal got a major extension in 2011 and now offers four new jet bridges and more indoor spaces raising the capacity of the airport to 1.5 million.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I agree with you.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Some airport articles do have a paragraph or two about the airport's history. But as Oulu Airport is small enough to fit into the Oulu article itself, I too agree describing its history section isn't necessary. ϒψιλον  (talk ) 15:07, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Oulu Airport
I'm sorry, but I think this article pushes even the most generous definition of "huge airport" per our WV:Airport Expedition. What say ye? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with thee.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The articles says, "Second biggest airport in Finland". As if that makes it a "huge airport" — sounds like the writer of the article was trying to provide arguments for it to be an article. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 18:29, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It certainly doesn't merit an article. Helsinki Airport (which I started because all other Nordic capitals already had one and itis a fairly important transit point for passengers between Asia and European airports with no connections to Asia) is sort of "borderline", but all other airports in Finland are considerably smaller with at most 10-20 departures a day and clearly don't need their own articles. ϒψιλον  (talk ) 20:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Policy requires at least 100 flights, so this one is not nearly enough. But how would you redirect or merge? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 20:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd merge it into Oulu. But maybe we should first notify A Finnish Person who's written almost all of the article to hear his/her comments. ϒψιλον  (talk ) 20:28, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I would merge it, too. I saw that 10 days later, no-one had yet notified User:Ä Vinnis Persön, so I just did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Alright, eraseit if you wish, just thought that all contribution would be appreciated.Ä Vinnis Persön (talk) 13:40, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

You know, maybe it would make more sense to keep because of the above comment. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 14:43, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Disagree. No-one's proposing to erase the content, merely to merge it into the Oulu article and then turn the Oulu Airport article into a redirect. Therefore, "erase it if you wish" is based on a misunderstanding and not relevant to whether Oulu Airport is large and complex enough to merit its own article under the terms laid out in WV:Airport Expedition. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Precisely. We don't set aside policy every time someone makes a passive-aggressive comment. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:32, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge & redirect ✅; this discussion should probably have been swept already, but let's keep it here in the pub for a few days because I referred to it in the edit summaries of Oulu and Oulu airport when performing the merge. ϒψιλον  (talk ) 18:55, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for taking action! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Another reason the airport section is long is content about transport from there to various city destinations. Much of it probably belongs in "Get around", which for the town buses is also kinda long. I'll have a go at rationalising but a local's perspective will be valuable. Grahamsands (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Oulu


text:
Talk:Ouro Preto

(WV-en) I have started the page in Portuguese and I am editing english and Portuguese simultaneously. .

Any changes made here, please add to the Portuguese version at: http://pt.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Ouro_Preto

Guides
I removed this section of the guide. I don't think this is appropriate for a travel guide, but please feel free to discuss. --(WT-en) Evan 09:34, 14 December 2006 (EST)

''One of the best ways of knowing the city is having a local tourist guide with you. The local guides are trained by SENAC and have in-depth knowledge of the city and its outskirts. Besides, being locals, the guides know extremelly well other cities and locations outside Ouro Preto, which can be invaluable for those looking for some adventure at waterfalls and trekking.

all tourist guides are located at Praça Tiradentes.

Recommended guides:

 * César Augusto, Phone: (031) 3553 2013''

-- Evan, I added this section both in Portuguese and English, as it is difficult to find your way around town without a guide and understand its history. Since there´s not much about the city in printed guides, I thought this would be an idea. If you feel appropriate, I will also remove from the link in the Portuguese page. --(WT-en) Robert

 * If there's not information in the printed guides, then we should add it right here, I think! That's the whole point of Wikivoyage: sharing information, not sharing information about who to ask for information. It's unusual for Wikivoyage is all; I'd like to hear some more opinions before we add it back in. --(WT-en) Evan 14:30, 14 December 2006 (EST)

 * Evan, it is cool with me. I will keep adding more information, as I am still in town. As soon as I can I will add pictures too. In the meantime, let us see what other users think. Since the historical background of the city is huge, writing everything up is a mamoth task. Nevertheless, I see your point as stated above. All the best for now, --(WT-en) Robert

Stone lanterns
When I visited Ouro Preto in 2003, I recall that there are a number of elaborate historic stone street candle-lanterns unlike anything else in Brazil. I do not recall the story I gathered about them, but it was quite interesting, involving spirits and hauntings, possibly that they sometimes appear to have a lit candle in them still, or something of the sort. I have not been able to find any information or photos of them, but if someone out there is familiar with their story, I would love to add it to this guide. (WT-en) Texugo 09:26, 3 February 2009 (EST)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Ouro Preto


text:
Talk:Outback

External links for research
Removed the following per our external links policy, but they may be good for research:
 * Royal Flying Doctor Outback Travel Information Exploring the beauty of Australia away from the cities can be quite an adventure but we urge you to pay attention to some safety tips and general information which should make your trip more enjoyable and very importantly - safer.
 * Road Trains Here are some important safety tips about sharing the road with Road Trains from the Northern Territory to download
 * NRMA Outback Tracks

(WT-en) Hypatia 17:53, 25 September 2006 (EDT)

Merge
This district doesn't make sense, as it bridges multiple states. We have to merge this article into the relevant states and let this one redirect somewhere. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 22:08, 22 December 2009 (EST)

 * No, the Outback is a region that needs its own article. Especially important are the safety warnings. If you want a precedent for a region bridging several states, look at the various regions of the USA: South_(United_States_of_America), New England, Mid-Atlantic etc. I have changed it back.122.107.15.145 10:10, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

 * That comparison doesn't quite work—Mid-Atlantic contains states, while Outback cuts across them. That is, it doesn't fit into our Project:Geographical hierarchy.

 * That said, as long as we acknowledge that it's an extra-hierarchical region, it shouldn't do any harm. And there is useful travel writing here, so it's not as though someone created a blank region outline that serves no purpose. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 10:28, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

 * Still very much an outline needing lots of qualification - the generalisations are far too loose for any adequate understaning of the variations - it is important to stay as a single article - but hey a lot of work still required. sats (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Warrambungles?
The article says "in the east like Dubbo, it isn't always dry due to the Warrambungles being nearby." Warrambungles redirects to Central West (New South Wales), where the term isn't mentioned. A non-Aussie cannot be expected to know what it refers to. Warrambungles should be linked or explained here, and explained in the redirect target. –LPfi (talk) 08:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed that redirect so it now leads to the park article (also created a Warrambungles redirect since that's a very common misspelling, and I've even seen in the NSW Parks website). And more specific, I don't think anyone outside even New South Wales will know that. On another note, I'm not quite sure whether the Warrumbungles are even in the Outback. Dubbo is barely on the outback and it varies by definition. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Banner
Surely camels are more surprising to see than kangaroos. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:51, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

 * Looks like Arabia, but a much better picture. Support Banner 1 per nom. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:13, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

 * Banner 1 is surely a much higher quality image any way you cut it, but camels over kangaroos as the focus? I don't know really... Vidimian (talk) 14:08, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Banner 1 but per Vidimian, would prefer an image of kangaroos if possible. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:31, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Done – but I have to ask, why kangaroos? I'm probably biased, but they're not unique to the Outback after all – they can found in very very tropical areas like Cape York at 10° south from the equator, to 43° south in Southwest National Park, both of which are not the Outback. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * To me (and perhaps to many other outsiders) "Outback" is shorthand for "somewhere remote in Australia" (followed by "it's flat, inland, with reddish soil and sparse vegetation" when I think more about it). Which animal but kangaroos (if any) could represent "somewhere remote in Australia" better? Vidimian (talk) 12:15, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * So out of curiosity, would many regard some of the tropical rainforests in Far North Queensland which is very remote and hard to get to as "Outback", or is that corner just not thought about? (I'm just curious to know) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:18, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the others, but I wouldn't consider anywhere covered in rainforests as part of the Outback off the top of my head — the Outback evokes images of Australia's arid interior to me, even if (I don't know whether) the northern tropical areas or elsewhere on the coast are properly considered within the Outback by the Australians. Vidimian (talk) 12:25, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a bit ambiguous whether the north would be considered as the "Outback" though. I would certainly consider the northwest to be the Outback, but not the Top End or the Far North. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
I created a an alternative banner for the parallel article on the Hebrew Wikivoyage, and I thought I would also suggest we use it here. For me the alternative banner looks much more like the Australian Outback than a banner with camels. Which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 16:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd keep the camels. The alternative image is boring to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ditto – it also looks a bit too NT-centric to me as well. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 21:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If this is the Outback, shouldn't it have kangaroos in it? Mrkstvns (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I can drive 20 minutes from where I live (almost dead centre of Sydney) to see kangaroos outside captivity, though. Not Outback-specific, I'm afraid. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 12:41, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Outback


text:
Talk:Outer Banks

Mispronunciations of place names in India are not helpful. 'Kerala' rhymes with neither 'Holla' or 'Corolla' [NC].

The Outer Banks also includes Ocracoke Island in Hyde county http://www.Ocracokeweb.com

these towns are part of the mainland and NOT part of the Outer Banks: * Jarvisburg * Grandy Dare County Mainland
 * Powells Point

* Manns Harbor * Stumpy Point * East Lake

How do you fly to the Outer Banks? Which airport?? The "Get In" section of every article should always include at least 2 forms of transportation, not just driving. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 207.245.183.97 (talk • contribs)

On Airport: There is really no good option for flying into Cape Hatteras. Closest commercial airport is Norfolk, VA, which is 2+ hours drive.

 * Project:Plunge forward. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:34, 6 July 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Outer Banks


text:
Talk:Hong Kong to Kunming overland

I will be making this trip in the February holiday, so am building a framework now to add observations later. (WT-en) Pashley 21:05, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Merge?
This is tagged for a merge to China, which strikes me as silly. The China article is already too long. On the other hand, it would be hard to merge it into a region article because it crosses more than one; it is mostly but not only in SW China.

Keep it? Merge it into Overland to Tibet? Pashley (talk) 16:01, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Instead of merging, maybe we should reverse the direction. Most non-Chinese travelers arrive in HK. So if it is HK to Kunming, then this article feeds nicely into Kunming tourist trail. Tigerleapgorge (talk) 02:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Reversing the direction has been discussed before at Wikivoyage_talk:Itineraries. I think it is a good idea but have never found the time & energy to do it. If you want to, I'd say plunge forward. Pashley (talk) 02:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I am trying to change the title to "Hong Kong to Kunming Overland" can't figure out how. With the title as is it seems to make little sense to reverse the actual itinerary. Tigerleapgorge (talk) 07:16, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I moved the page, leaving a redirect behind. Pashley (talk) 10:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Longsheng?
We currently have rather short sections for Guilin to Longsheng, Longsheng to Sanjiang, and Sanjiang to Congjiang. I'd merge the first two into one Guilin to Songjiang section because I do not think Longsheng needs more than a passing mention.

On the other hand, you could make a case either for merging all three or keeping things as they are. What do others think. Pashley (talk) 23:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I agree after I made the split it indeeds seems too many and too short. My original intention was to mark Sanjiang as a place to spend 2 days in. Granted I have only been to Longsheng but never been to Sanjiang. The idea is that since most people day trip Longsheng, it would be better to keep on going and sleep in Sanjiang instead of heading back to Guilin. Let me know what you think. Tigerleapgorge (talk) 07:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Guide? DotM?
This article is currently rated Usable. If it were Guide, it might be a good candidate for Destination of the month candidates. I think it is close, but I'm reluctant to promote it myself since I wrote large parts of it.

Other opinions? . Pashley (talk) 02:08, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I'll take a closer look at this article later, but right off the bat, it needs at least one, preferably more photos. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:10, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

 * It is close, but I don't think that it ready yet. It should have a map (add markers for the main cities, and mapframe), the first paragraph could give some idea of the distance and a suggested duration (would I be rushing it to do this in one week?). Also I think that some updating is required - the Hong Kong–Zhuhai–Macau Bridge will impact the start of the route when in opens in July, are hotels still so cheap?. AlasdairW (talk) 22:17, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I originally wrote this about 10 years ago & mentioned the prices I saw then. I do not think they have been updated since, so quite likely they are now wrong. Pashley (talk) 10:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hong Kong to Kunming overland


text:
Talk:Overland to Tibet

Is this article more than what would usually be written in the Get in section of a article? --(WT-en) inas 19:06, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Good question. I thought it was, which is why I wrote it. There's also a Tibetan journeys itinerary, arguably redundant. This article could be expanded to cover routes into Tibet from South or West; if it were, it would absorb most of the "journeys" article. Or journeys could be expanded. Or both incorporated in the main Tibet article. (WT-en) Pashley 21:41, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

title: Talk:Overland to Tibet


text:
Talk:Oviedo

Another direct copy from http://www.simnet.is/japan/e-e-asturias.htm. -- (WT-en) Wrh2 18:05, 12 May 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Oviedo


text:
Talk:Owensboro

If you have anyother information on the City of Owensboro, please fell free to add it to the article.

Details?
I'd like to see some more details about Owensboro here. What festivals does it have? What sports give it that reputation? --(WT-en) Evan 13:23, 17 Aug 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Owensboro


text:
Talk:Oxford

I believe but am not sure that the Apollo theatre was renamed back to its original "New Theatre" in 2003/4.

Virtual Tour
So, I don't think the Virtual Tour of Oxford link meets our req'ts for external links. Paul? --(WT-en) Evan 12:03, 19 December 2006 (EST)

I dont think wingate by Windham is anywhere near oxfordshire.. its in Oxford Alabama, US..
 * You'd be right. I've removed the entry. (WT-en) Nrms 11:16, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Trains London-> Oxford
booking a train from London? Here's an interesting thing my mate noticed http://twitter.com/oobr/status/7527418463 Can't always be like that though. Must be a temporary quirk -- (WT-en) Harry Wood 15:16, 8 January 2010 (EST)

Oxford Spires Hotel listing under splurge
, I noticed the Four Pillars hotel Oxford Spires Hotel is not listed, can we have it listed? It's a four star hotel in the centre of oxford. Send me a message if you require any details not public on the website

To save time here is the proposed listing with just factual info:

VerbInteractive (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

 * This one gets good reviews, looks like a nice place. I've added it. Please include prices in your proposed listings. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Oxford Thames Hotel listing under Splurge
, I noticed the Four Pillars hotel Oxford Thames Hotel is not listed as well, can we have it listed? It's a little South in Sandford-on-Thames, but I don't see a page for that village. Send me a message if you require any details not public on the website

To save time here is the proposed listing with just factual info:

VerbInteractive (talk) 15:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

 * If you'd like to add this hotel, please create a town article for Sandford-on-Thames or a nearby town. It's too far away from Oxford itself and we don't list different venues from the same owner twice. So no, I've not added this one. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * the article has been created, thanks for your input Sandford-on-Thames VerbInteractive (talk) 15:01, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Some sort of district breakdown
Oxford is a big page and I am sure we are all proud of the contributions made to it, but I am thinking it is best we consider breaking the city down by the following districts at least. Especially when you consider how long the Eat and Drink sections are.

Being quite a fundamental change, I thought I would talk it out first.

 * Summertown - Summertown is an affluent district of Oxford known for its shops, restaurants and expensive housing.

 * Jericho - Jericho is an affluent district near the centre of Oxford, known for its picturesque housing and nightlife.

 * St. Giles - This central district is known its memorial to the Oxford Martyrs and its fair each year to commemmorate the historic event.

 * Gloucester Green - Gloucester Green is a plaza in the centre of Oxford known for its market, restaurants and bus station connecting to many destinations nationwide.

 * Botley - Botley is known mostly for its transport connections including the Botley Interchange on the city's ringroad and its proximity to the city's train station. However it also houses the city's closest retail parks with many amenities available.

 * Cowley/Iffley Road - The road connecting Oxford to Cowley is known for its restaurants and nightlife. But also has notoriety for crime.

 * Cowley - Oxford's industrial area has many amenities available including supermarkets and the odd pub.

 * Blackbird Leys - Blackbird Leys is mostly known as a social housing district, but is also the home of the Kassam Stadium.

Inferno986return (talk) 15:16, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Oxford is no huge city, so I'm skeptical (or, for Brits, sceptical) on districting it. The "Eat" section is not divided into "Budget", "Mid-range" and "Splurge" sections and should be, nor is "Drink". I would suggest those steps be taken, either with further divisions of "Drink" subordinated to those 3 sections or the current sections subdivided into those price categories. Once that's done, let's look at the article again and see if it still looks ungainly. The possibility exists that in fact some establishments should be de-listed, as Wikivoyage guides are not supposed to encompass all possible listings in any category (see Goals and non-goals). But the first step is to divide "Eat" and "Drink" by price category. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:28, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

iTunes guide
This was inserted into a "Reference" section. I've moved it here because it would seem to fall outside of the guidelines at External links, but it may be useful, anyway, and worth discussing:

 * Oxford iPhone and iPad app - free to download. Officially called 'Oxford Travel Expert Guides, Maps & Directions '. Originally launched in January 2016 and updated periodically; it is an app for iPhone and iPad showing accommodation, restaurants, things to do and shops on a map, with articles and contact details. Part of the Travel Expert World Guides this is written in English and downloaded in the UK, USA and China, Australia and Canada.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi. My name is Matt Nicholson - I added the link earlier today. I'm new to Wikipedia and WikiVoyage - it's a superb tool - thanks for your contributions and assistance.

I feel that Wikipedia quite rightly lists useful references such as websites and books, but society has a growing trend towards apps in domains such as Oxford and I believe these apps provide a useful tool for the reader due to the functionality they provide (eg directions, interaction, multi language etc). This particular app is one of the more up to date and comprehensive Oxford guides, written by a local and is being translated into other languages so as to be more globally useful. In order to comply with Wikipedia terms I have removed the tracking link, however the link in principle I believe is of benefit to the reader, just as books and website links are. Please discuss :-) Matt Nicholson (talk) 11:19, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

 * Please understand: Many sources are useful. I'm sure Lonely Planet guides are useful tools, but they cannot be listed or linked on this site because they are competing guides. Please make an argument for how either this link (and the other links you've been adding, but I suppose those should be discussed separately, on other talk pages) either somehow falls within the policies laid out at external links, specifically external links, or why this is such an outstanding tool, containing so much information that couldn't possibly be added to this guide, that we should make an exception to our policies and list it here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I see your point Ikan - on this particular Oxford page there are no other links to other useful references. Matt Nicholson (talk) 11:55, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

 * Let's see what other people think. If there's no response by tomorrow, a thread could be posted on the Travellers' pub, linking to this discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Oxford


text:
Talk:Oxford (Mississippi)

The page is great. A few of the restaurants and bars are missing addresses. Would someone be able to add this information? I would find it very useful. Thanks.

Oxford does not allow alcohol of any kind on campus. This article says that it allows liquor. This is not true. However, during football games, sometimes security will look the other way when it comes to wealthy alums who'd like a little vodka with their tonic. However, if you're a student, you better believe an officer will pour your entire bottle out, and there is no alcohol allowed in the stadium, except in the boxes, where it is still illegal but often goes unnoticed.

Article status
(1/5/2005) I took out the "stub" message. In less than 24 hours from its creation, the page has become pretty comprehensive.

 * Check out Project:Article status. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:37, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I upgraded it to "guide" status...working on becoming a "star"!(WT-en) Tennreb 11:02, 24 Jan 2006 (EST)

(1/5/2005) I deleted the link to the driving directions because Wikivoyage says not to link to outside map services.70.60.81.229

I removed the descriptions on the chain restaurants, such as Applebee's and Chili's, because everyone already knows about them and readers may get bogged down with unnecessary details. I'm thinking of deleting them altogether because Wikivoyage says not to include listings you wouldn't recommend, and no one would recommend someone visit Oxford and eat at Chili's. (WT-en) Tennreb 11:37, 6 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * That's fine. It's not that there is a problem with recommending those chains, but if you have enough restaurants already, it's fine to not bother with them.  In a one-horse town, by contrast, a single Applebee's could be cause for celebration. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:37, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * What are Applebee's or Chili's? I have no idea what Applebee's or Chili's are, as we don't have them in New Zealand. Are they like Cobb & Co. or the Fisherman's Table - Chain Restaurants that serve a standard menu? A mention, even if it was just a street address and website link might be a good idea. You never know, if I ever visit Oxford that might be the first time I might want to go to one of these places. We are wanting to be a complete guide aren't we? Why shouldn't we mention the big chains. I might not want to eat McDonalds every day ...... though I am sure my kids would love to and did on a recent holiday. If I didn't have a local to guide me around, I could have wasted lots of time searching for the right place. So knowing where these places are might be useful. -- (WT-en) Huttite 05:22, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * If you came to Oxford all the way from New Zealand and you ate at Applebees or Chilis, you probably wouldn't want to come back. (WT-en) Tennreb

I'm not sure including information such as motor freight and parcel services is really necessary. People may choose not to read the page if there is too much information that doesn't concern them. Also, everyone already knows FedEx ships to Oxford and everywhere else. (WT-en) Tennreb 11:40, 6 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * That might indeed be Too Much Information. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:37, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

I see that there is a 12 year old vandalising the article. It's now on my watch list to ensure that the graffiti does not last more than a day. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:37, 22 Jan 2006 (EST)

For those not familiar with Oxford: the town has a huge rivalry with another town nearby called Starkville, home to Mississippi State University. Many of those associated with that town are intensely jealous of the offerrings of Oxford and will stop at nothing to denigrate it. As this page becomes more widely known, expect the vandalism to increase. I will try to convince some of the people fond of that town to create a page of their own. Hopefully then they will direct their energy in more positive directions. (WT-en) Tennreb

 * Springfield vs. Shelbyville :) (WT-en) Simone 11:56, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

Pictures coming soon. (WT-en) Tennreb

I posted the following warning on the vandal's talk page: "This is a warning for your repeated vandalism of the Oxford (Mississippi) site. If you continue to vandalize this site, your IP address will be placed on the list recommended for banning.  If you still continue, we will contact your internet service provider and request that your service be terminated for repeated violatons of the terms of use.  I suggest that you redirect your energies in a more positive form, such as creating a page for your favorite locale, such as Starkville.  It's easy to do, and creating your own work will be much for fulfilling than attempting to destroy the work of others." (WT-en) Tennreb 15:05, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

Added Pizza Den to the food section. Pizza Den has re-opened and is located in another location behind Applebee's. They have the same equipment and menu that Bob used to make them famous.

 * Sorry, I was deleting that like not aware that it had reopened. Sometime in the future, though, I am going to redo the Eat section in the Wiki style with listings grouped by price.  I'm only going to leave the best listings.  I feel that it is too long as it is, and visitors will just get lost in anything more than 20 listing.  By the way, sign your name with four of the "~" keys (without the quotes.  Register so that we can identify you.  (WT-en) Tennreb 15:40, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

How is adding a section of links for Southeastern Conference Towns & Cities considered spam? The purpose is to allow fans from other SEC Schools to easily link and view travel information for other SEC Towns & Cities. This section is getting deleted.

I haven't been back to Oxford since April, but I think Duvals closed.? :: (WT-en) Mr. Otis 08:43, 26 October 2006 (EDT)

Images
Great looking guide! Sorry about your vandal... anyway, my one suggestion would be to size down the images, especially the first one at the top. Keep up the good work (WT-en) Majnoona 16:32, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I was trying to fill that big white space at the top. I plan on sizing it down when I get some more pictures.  Then again, i use a pretty high resolution on my screen (1400x1050), so they might appear much larger on a normal resolution.  I'll go ahead and size it down some.(WT-en) Tennreb 17:15, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

Vandal Information
The primary vandal has an ip address of 70.177.58.120 and the ISP is cox.net. Cox.net also translates to cox.com. The primary server being used by the vandal is in Baton Rouge, LA.

 * Undoubtedly an LSU fan, another archrival of Ole Miss, the university located in Oxford. (WT-en) Tennreb 17:15, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * The abuse has been reported to Cox and proof of the vandalism is being sent to their abuse department. Cox will research the abuse and warn their user of the violations that they have committed.  In the future if there is anymore vandalism, the vandal will be reported so that their ISP can take necessary action.

Comment for anonymous
I added a comment asking our anonymous friend to put his humorous attacks on Uncyclopedia rather than here. --(WT-en) Evan 17:11, 23 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * The attacks seemed to stop, so I removed the comment. (WT-en) Tennreb 10:57, 24 Jan 2006 (EST)

Google
Google doesn't seem to be picking up on the page. If you search for "Oxford, MS travel" or "Oxford, MS travel guide" a bunch of really bad sites come up, but no Oxford on Wikivoyage. It's in the database, but just not very highly ranked. What are some ways to get Google to rank it higher? (WT-en) Tennreb 15:19, 24 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * It takes a while basically. It helps if you mention the article in appropriate contexts in online forums. -- (WT-en) Mark 04:47, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

Great Job
Hey, I just wanted to say that you're doing a great job with this article. Thanks!

There are a couple of things which are probably going to get changed at some point in the future, for instance this is probably the first article I've seen which has actually too many listings in the eat section. We're trying to make a travel guide, not a phone book, so the comprehensive listings will probably be pared down to just recommended ones, and the sections will probably be limited to the usual "Budget", "Mid-Range", and "Splurge" from the Project:Manual of style. You don't have to do it yourself, but please don't be offended when somebody does.

Thanks again for your hard work on the article. -- (WT-en) Mark 04:47, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I deleted some of the entries that you wouldn't recommend to visitors. Most of the listings were copied and pasted by another contributor from a government tourism website, which explains for the format.  I'll eventually put them in the proper format. (WT-en) Tennreb 12:52, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

SEC
One other question, what is the SEC (apparently not the Securities and Exchange Commission)? -- (WT-en) Mark 05:25, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

The SEC is the athletic conference in which Ole Miss is a member. This part of the page was put in so that visiting fans from the other SEC Schools can view travel information related to the various SEC Schools.

How is adding a section of links for Southeastern Conference Towns & Cities considered spam? The purpose is to allow fans from other SEC Schools to easily link and view travel information for other SEC Towns & Cities. This section is getting deleted.
 * The cross links are not needed. Fans should be able to locate information on the cities using normal navaigation in WikiTravel. -- (WT-en) Xltel 20:25, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I suppose you are right, but the person doing the posting doesn't read this discussion page (I don't think he does, anyway). You may end up with an edit war. (WT-en) Tennreb 21:43, 26 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * Even if they are unwanted because they aren't MOS they still are not spam. Wiki-spam is the addition of inappropriate links to stuff outside of Wikivoyage. This was just a little navigational tool for within Wikivoyage that somebody thought was useful.  Actually there's a precedent for stuff like this: Paris.  Evan stated his opposition at the time the arrondissement navigator was added, but I find myself using it all the time, so I'd hate to see it go.

 * For this SEC thing, I think you're right, Xltel, that it's not really needed probably (don't teams go to one town at a time?), but if it has to be there, Tennreb, then maybe there should be some explanation of what it's there for and what SEC stands for. -- (WT-en) Mark 01:00, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * The original unsigned post above is from 24.159.188.173 who is the author of the cross links. The only reason I was calling it spam is it was appearing on all the cities where this college conference is located (except Little Rock where some games are played), so it was appearing on 11 or so pages. And, it appeared to me as a promotion for sports for the Southeast Conference (SEC) which is a college sports conference. When I saw this poster only posting these cross posts, I assumed it was an enthusiastic fan of the SEC and I should not have assumed that. I should have removed them with a note that would not inflame (ie: unwanted cross links) and I apologize for not doing that. In addition when I think of spam, it is where you are getting a lot of something you don't want. Spam on WikiTravel is considered as external links, so I am wrong again. But, apology out of the way, I think this is a slippery slope as there is a college football conference in 100's of cities, not to mention pro sports and then you could get into little league sports for smaller towns. The links in Paris appear to be links to districts inside the same city and not links for sports teams or at least that is what I see. Is there something like cross links for World Football in each of the cities? Is that needed? Sorry, about using "spam" in my removal text. -- (WT-en) Xltel 06:11, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * We want the internal links for the Southeastern Conference on our page. It is a convenience for other fans of SEC Schools to use to view travel information about other SEC Towns or Cities.  Stated in the Project:Internal links is the following:

 * "In the Links to other Wikivoyage pages should be incorporated into the text of an article if practical. Be liberal with linkage, but try to only link the first instance of an article name."

 * None of the links are external, they are internal and informative to many users and SEC fans who might use this page. We want to keep the internal links for WikiTravel for the Southeastern Towns & Cities.

 * I'm still not sure that this SEC nav thing is all that useful really since people travelling to see a game already know the name of the town but I think a better way to do it would be as a template. It might also be useful as a category, or even a region.  I think traveling for sporting events is almost certainly Project:Another way of seeing travel.

 * That said, one little semantic issue: it's User:(WT-en) Xltel's page too (and everyone else's). ;p -- (WT-en) Mark 07:43, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * My problem with this linkset is that they don't seem to be placed where they are useful. If you are wanting to go to games in the conference, well first of all, if you really care that much about the conference, you probably already know the Universities involved.  Second, if you are an Old Miss fan, and want to go to an away game, is it really logical to look into the article about your home region to find them?  It's also a slippery slope: do Shark's fans need to know where the cities of the NHL are?  Do Raider's fans need to know where the Bronco's are?  Do Giant's fans need a list to tell them where the Astro's play?  Do Cal fans need to know where the Big Game is held?  Ugh.  Too much information that is available elsewhere and not generally useful to a traveller to Oxford. -- (WT-en) Colin 10:37, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I see your point, but most of those towns define themselves as SEC Towns, Nashville being the exception. Also, most people that live in the South identify these towns as SEC towns.  When you hear "Auburn, AL" you immediately think "SEC."  People going to these towns frequently travel among several of them.  Also, I think it does encourage others to build the page for their favorite town.  If an LSU fan comes to the Oxford board to find a place to stay and they see the link to Baton Rouge, click on it, and see that there isn't much there, they may go ahead and add some info.  But you are right in that they don't need a navigation to find the other pages they are looking for.  Perhaps the solution would be to have a seperate page with info on all the SEC towns.  Call it something like "Southeastern Conference Fall Football Tour."  Visitors could read a little info about each town and the gameday experience, and then go to that town's page for more info.  A large number of fans do travel from school to school in the SEC, so it could really benefit a lot of people.  Perhaps the user that is adamant on including these links would be willing to work on that. (WT-en) Tennreb 15:35, 27 Jan 2006 (EST)

This is not the Yellow Pages
Let's try to keep it to widely recommended places, rather than attempting to list everything. If you wouldn't direct a visitor there (even if the place is good), don't list it. I love Lenny's Sub Shop, but I wouldn't tell someone visiting Oxford "you have to eat at Lenny's!" I believe this conforms with Wikivoyage policy. Also according to policy, I reorganized the Eat section into Splurge, Mid-Range, and Budget. Not everyone would choose to group them this way, but it should conform with the general format of the site. Also, I created a seperate page for the SEC and just linked to that page. That should solve the disagreement over whether to include every link to every town. Hopefully, the SEC page will get expanded into one that includes some info about every town and gives actual tips about touring the SEC. (WT-en) Tennreb 19:46, 29 Jan 2006 (EST)

Map
Who is willing to make a map? In order to become a "star" article, you need a map. I tried following the instructions on the map-making page, but my graphic design skills are too limited. (WT-en) Tennreb 16:11, 12 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * I'll put it on my list. -- (WT-en) Mark 04:14, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

Just discovered WikiTravel. You guys have done GREAT job on Oxford. I'm going to create a map starting with a hybrid (street and satellite) google map. It should be a cool map, but if you have a better aproach, let me know. Btw, this will be my first contribution to WikiTravel or Wikipedia; i assumue i'll find a 'how to add image' in the help area. -daniel

Are there some good examples of maps on this site, before I get started? Oh, and what exactly is a "star article"? -daniel

 * Hello! and Welcome! First off, go get yourself a User account so you have a talk page where we can welcome you (there's also aim and icq chatrooms -- check out Project:Help for details). Second, take a peek at Project:Mapmaking Expedition and Project:Article status just to get you started... hope this helps! (WT-en) Majnoona 14:13, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * Hi Daniel, just so you know, we can't use maps from Google because of copywrite issues. To be fair Google themselves would probably let us use them, but not the people who provide their mapping data and satellite imagery.  For what it's worth I've done an awful lot of research into this and have concluded that the best way to make USA maps is by using Dept of the Interior Tiger/Line data.  If you want to learn how to do this check out the stuff I've written on my user page and the Project:Mapmaking Expedition and do please feel free to contact me offline. -- (WT-en) Mark 15:07, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * But we can trace over Google Maps or any other map for that matter. (See Project:How to draw a map for a description of the process) Information cannot be copyrighted. Only the representation of that information can be copyrighted. We can, for example, print out a map and copy it out by map. It would be perfectly legal. Similarly, we can trace out a map and it will be free of any copyright hassles.--(WT-en) Ravikiran 15:43, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * With the exception of the mention of google I wrote the above mentioned how-to. I'm not convinced of the legality of using Google data, and much prefer to start with aerial photos which I've paid for for the express purpose of mapmaking. Google gets their data from a number of tried and true sources who do on-the-ground fact checking and are quite jealous of their data.

 * For destinations in the USA however there is a great Free source for mapping data. As I said above the right thing to do is to use the Census Bureau Tiger/Line data.  It's Free in the libre sense, and is guaranteed not to come back and bite us on the knee.  Try that with Google data and we stand a chance of making trouble if not for ourselves then for some re-user of the data.  -- (WT-en) Mark 16:11, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

Work
As suggested by other users, I think we need to limit the "Work" section to a brief description. We need to keep this travel oriented. If someone unfamiliar with the area wanted to find a job, they could use that description to jump-start their own research. Otherwise, people viewing the page for its intended purpose get bogged down in unnecessary details. (WT-en) Tennreb 23:07, 15 Feb 2006 (EST)

Events Calendars
The Events Calendars provide very informative links to travelers so that they can determine what events and activities are happening in the Oxford, MS area. Many Wikivoyage pages contain the same type of links being represented in the Events Calendar links. Within the past few weeks, the Wikivoyage External Links editor reviewed this site and did not remove the Events Calendar Links. If these links are not to Wiki standards and they are deleted again, then provide exact, specific reason why these links do not conform to Wikivoyage standards and do not point to the Wiki external links page.

 * I didn't know we had and "external links editor". -- (WT-en) Mark 13:35, 26 February 2006 (EST)
 * (WT-en) Jonboy notes in his profile that chooses a random page and brings it in line with the external links policy. He was the editor who deleted most of the links in this article in the past.
 * Just to be clear for those new to the site-- we don't. (WT-en) Majnoona 16:07, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * Wikivoyage Manual of Style: "Wikivoyage policy is that external links should be kept to a bare minimum." Links to every events calendar under the sun violates that policy.  One link is enough (in the opening section description), and it covers nearly every event in Oxford that an outsider would be concerned with.  This page should provide direct information, not a catalog of links or a yellow pages.  I believe that is the intent of Wikivoyage.  If you think that one link doesn't cover enough, go ahead an add another one to the section description.  No one wants to visit this page and read a list of links, but if you think another link adds vital information, then add it.  Just keep it to a bare minimum.  Also, I recommend that you register an account and sign your posts.  Otherwise, no one can tell if you are a regular contributor or a first time visitor.  (WT-en) Tennreb 14:21, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * So what is a bare minimum? Does that mean you can only link to a few sites?  What is the number?  External links are very useful and informative.  Links to every events calendar under the sun were not done.  The only links that were used were links to Ole Miss and Oxford.  The links provide varied information about Oxford such as community events, property values (something I like to see whenever I vist any place), as well as sports events.  If every events calendar under the sun were used then this would become a world page.  The events caledars are useful for travelers, since they could contain information about specific special events which are not shown in this article.  The information put on here is very limited, so external links provide in depth information about a specific event.  If you think the information contained in this article is too vast, then someone needs to work on a cliff notes version.  I thought the purpose was to provide as much information as possible about a specific travel destination.

 * That's the policy, if you don't like it, then try to get it changed. You need to read up about the goals and the Wikipedia manual of style.  The goal isn't to provide as much travel information as possible but to provide the best travel information possible.  This isn't a directory.  If you want it to be, then try to get it changed.  Otherwise, try to contribute to a directory site such as Dmoz. (WT-en) Tennreb 10:34, 27 February 2006 (EST)

 * Events calendar websites are clearly disallowed by the extlink policy, though this is a contraversial policy. Those (like me) who are against the current policy argue that keeping up with what bands are in town, and what art shows are upcoming is too much for Wikivoyage to document well, and that a single extlink pointing to a good nightlife guide is occasionally helpful.  Your set of links was neither a single link nor frankly do any of them appear to be the type of nightlife guide we were envisioning.  If you disagree with the policy, then you need to help lobby to get current policy changed first, and add the links second.  No policy is set firmly in stone and they are all open to debate! The place to have the discussion is Project:External links. -- (WT-en) Colin 15:23, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * I know this has been a bit of a point-of-contention, but I though there was some agreement as to the compromise of using Open Directory. We let them do what they are good at (providing a directorty of links) while we do what we're good at (providing a travel guide). I'm going to go take a look if there's a good general link for events in Oxford. Please take a look at the open directory page and see if this is going to work for this situation. (WT-en) Majnoona 16:07, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * So I found this. I have to admit it's not great, but anyone is free to become an editor (too bad it's not a wiki!) (WT-en) Majnoona 16:12, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * I've never ever liked the DMOZ policy. DMOZ is not open in that it's not editable.  I didn't agree with it the policy;  I just stopped arguing after it was proposed and my arguments against it fell on deaf ears. -- (WT-en) Mark 16:24, 26 February 2006 (EST)

 * I think DMOZ is a great substitute for 99.9% of all extlinks we get contributed, and to my mind it justifies our current no-to-most-extlinks policy. But I'm still in agreement about the need for an exception for nightlife guides. -- (WT-en) Colin 16:38, 26 February 2006 (EST)

The anonymous contributor is really going to have to address these questions and not just keep adding links back. (WT-en) Jonboy 21:11, 26 February 2006 (EST)

Unnecessary info
[Because I'm the guy who created the need for the Unnecessary Info section of this discussion, and b/c I won't be causing any more problems in the future, I've deleted this section entirely. You can put it back in if you find it instructive, but I think it was mostly me being a punk.]

Great article
I loved this article. We have 2 daughters at OLE MISS and have really enjoyed our frequent visits. We've finally learned the tricks to getting hotel rooms and dinner reservations during football weekends. We were surprised to learn from our senior that alcohol IS now allowed on campus, but no beer..very strange law! We would vote for more restaurants in or near the square. We were very disappointed that Madre and Oxford Steak House disappeared right before the fall busy season. Looking forward to the Florida game...GO REBS GO!

title: Talk:Oxford (Mississippi)


text:
Talk:Oxford (Ohio)

Listen (radio stations), Learn (local school district as well as a university), Read (listing of a publishing company): this is looking more like directory or a Wikepedia entry. (WT-en) SHC 22:23, 1 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I went ahead and ed it. I don't think it will take to much to bring it back in line... [[User:(WT-en) Maj|Majnoona]
 * When I removed, I thought I had addressed the issue. Apparently not. I'll take no offense to the edits required to bring it back in line. It's my impression as I look at other college town pages throughout the U.S., that this article similarly addressess the various headings critiqued by SHC above. I look forward to better understanding the concerns. For now, I'll sit back, watch and try to control my Wikivoyage addiction! User:(WT-en) Mayor pez.
 * Don't reign in that addiction -- you are a wealth of info. Read up on the current styles and, by all means, keep adding to the project. (WT-en) SHC 18:45, 2 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I'm removed the style comment again. I think this is back in line with small towns style. Contact is the only exception (remove if you desire). I also upgraded it to "usable" as there's not a lot more to say about Oxford (yet it is still well worth a trip). Thanks to Sapphire for the Alumni Hall photo! User:(WT-en) Mayor pez
 * I happened to find that photo somewhere else. I just saved it, uploaded it, made sure it was compatible with the copyleft, and threw it up on this article. (WT-en) Sapphire 00:10, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

Oxford isn't Miami U
I'm a bit worried that this article is centering on Miami U too much. If there are 10,000 residents when school isn't in session what do those people do, see, and where do they eat at? (WT-en) Sapphire 00:10, 14 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Everything that is open during the school year remains open throughout the year. The town doesn't just shut down. However, as with most college towns, the tourist activity in Oxford is significantly centered around the University. User:(WT-en) Mayor pez 09:05, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Oxford (Ohio)


text:
Talk:Oze

So where is Oze? You might want to include a little more basic information so people know where it is... you also might want to take a look at the Project:Article templates.

title: Talk:Oze


text:
Talk:Pacific Beaches

"Pacific Beaches" is a pretty general regional description, maybe this should be Pacific Beaches (Oaxaca)? (WT-en) Majnoona 21:57, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Unless there's another place that uses the same name, why bother? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 23:35, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Pacific Beaches


text:
Talk:Pacific Coast Highway

It's not called "the PCH" by locals, just PCH. Although Southern Californians do tend to say "the 5" "the 405", etc., it's not the case with PCH. Only non-natives make this mistake. Also, it's only called PCH in SoCal, north of LA it becomes Cabrillo Hwy and then Shoreline Hwy.

 * Actually that's not true, I live in LA and many locals refer to it both ways – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 01:59, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

Banner
This one's a hard one. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:43, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

 * I think I prefer Banner 0, because it's more clearly indicative of driving conditions on the PCH. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pacific Coast Highway


text:
Talk:Pacific Northwest

123
I followed all the listing rules. I don't understand. This is a lovely vacation rental collective. I honestly feel that travelers will love these places. The IVR rentals are so much more personal and way more suitable for a family holiday. I think you are cheating your visitors out of a great vacation rental place. I am saddened and now feel I cannot trust the wikiTravel pages to offer me all the info & options available when I'm looking for holiday options.
 * Please read the messages we've been writing to you at User talk:(WT-en) Gutsche. -- (WT-en) Colin 22:08, 22 February 2007 (EST)
 * More specifically, the rules on Project:Accommodation listings state that we only list rental agencies when they have a physical presence in a location. Discuss on Project:Accommodation listings if you think this policy is an error. -- (WT-en) Colin 22:11, 22 February 2007 (EST)

ID is considered part of the "Pacific Northwest"
I'm from Idaho, and have lived in the PNW my entire life. For as long as I've lived there Idaho has been and still is considered part of the Pacific Northwest. If for no other reason, this entry should be updated to be consistent with the definition found in WikiPedia for "Pacific Northwest".

Wikipedia-Pacific Northwest

 * There have been a lot of discussions about how to break down regions in the US - whether California and Texas are part of the Southwest, what the boundaries of the South are, etc. Have a look at Talk:United States of America to see some of the discussions that led to the current regional hierarchy. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:00, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

 * I looked at didn't see much at the discussion page. I believe that we should split North Idaho and South Idaho, putting North into Pacific Northwest and South into Rocky Mountain. Here's why:

 * North Idaho is in the Pacific Time zone, however South Idaho is in the Mountain time zone.
 * North Idaho's climate and geography is much closer to the PNW (mountains, lakes, lots of boreal forest, with a comparatively wet climate), whereas South is more like the rocky mountain states: (arid, flat except for really mountainous areas, not many trees).
 * Politically and Economically, Northern Idaho tends to be much more in line with PNW states: generally liberal and with a tourist economy, South is more conservative and has an agricultural economy.

 * I really think we should switch. I believe it would help visitors understand the fundamental difference between the two regions...
 * (WT-en) L'Aquatique 01:54, 24 July 2007 (EDT)

 * The discussions are spread all over the place at this point, but Talk:Southwest (United States of America) has a similar discussion. A continual problem we have is that places simply don't fall into nice regions, and whether it's deciding whether how to divide up the USA, California, or San Francisco it takes a LONG time to come to any decision, and even after a decision is made there are always good arguments for other breakdowns.  In the case of US regions the preference has been that regions should split along state borders.  That means that for states like Idaho, Texas, Colorado, West Virginia and others there may be more than one region that is suitable, and we have to pick one.  Idaho probably could have gone either way (as you've pointed out), but in the end people felt most comfortable describing it as a mountain state.  Arguments for change are welcome, but hopefully this discussion at least gives some background as to why things are currently like they are. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:35, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Certainly. I completely agree that Idaho could have gone either way, and I suggesting that it does. Splitting it along the time zone change line seems logical to me, but I do understand that others might have the same differing opinions. What process would I have to go through to get it changed, some sort of vote, I assume? (WT-en) L'Aquatique 20:00, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

 * First a warning: the US regions have been fairly well established for a long time, so it will probably be an uphill battle to change them, and it may take a long time for a consensus to build to change the status quo (see Project:Consensus). Given that warning, you might want to ask people to add to this discussion by requesting feedback on Talk:United States of America or in the Project:Travelers' pub.  Personally, despite having visited on a few occasions I don't know enough about Idaho to say whether it's more appropriate as part of the Rocky Mountains or Pacific Northwest, but I'd oppose splitting either region except on a state border as I'm not sure there's enough of a benefit to doing so and it would open a can of worms with regards to other states.  If there is enough support for moving it to the Pacific Northwest that seems more reasonable.  Anyhow, that's my two cents. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:14, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

I was born and raised in SE Washington, and Idaho has ALWAYS (since name "Idaho" was first applied to split off of old Oregon Territory and later Washington Territory) been part of PNW. Stop trying to change history! That's not your job! —The preceding comment was added by 2602:306:c433:5f90:c9e8:8177:e606:77e5 (talk • contribs)

 * Welcome to Wikivoyage! I moved your post to the bottom of the thread, which is where new posts go, and signed for you. All edits on talk pages should be signed by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of the post. But on the tone: If you want to make an argument, considering the fact that you would have to convince a consensus to change a long-established regional structure for the U.S., you are more likely to get a positive response if you don't use language like "that's not your job". We're all volunteers here, so I really don't know what you're talking about in that regard. Finally, on substance: I'm from New York, which when I was growing up was always to my knowledge called part of the Northeast, yet on Wikivoyage, it's part of the Mid-Atlantic region, and when years ago, I rather indignantly said that anyone suggesting it's not part of the Northeast was "wrong", evidence was brought to bear that there are indeed people who consider it Mid-Atlantic (I think it's too far north for that to be really logical, but names aren't always logical). So, Idaho's history is one thing, but in terms of geography and maybe character, it doesn't seem erroneous to consider it a Rocky Mountain state. I could really go either way on this question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

article name
Is there a particular reason why this is article is Pacific Northwest (United States of America) instead of just Pacific Northwest (which just redirects here)? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:36, 30 November 2007 (EST)
 * Apparently not; I've moved it. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:54, 31 January 2009 (EST)

British Columbia not included?
I understand why one would perhaps not include Northern California, Idaho, or Alaska in this article due to various classification difficulties, but it makes no sense to not include British Columbia. It is part of the same ecosystem, political and social values are more or less identical, a very similar history is shared, and so on. Wikipedia's article on the Pacific Northwest also recognizes BC as an integral part of the region. This article is quite Amerocentric! Really, there's no reason not to include BC.

edit: I should add that I do realize this article is under the "United States of America" category, but I believe the Pacific Northwest page should be independent of the aforementioned category and re-categorized as an international region (like the Scandinavia article, the Mediterranean article, etc.)

-- —The preceding comment was added by 24.85.226.38 (talk • contribs).

 * The reason not to include BC is because crossing the border is non-trivial, especially for non-North Americans. We would have to include all sorts of border crossing information in the Get Around section that properly belongs in the Canada and United States of America articles' Get In sections.  There's also the issue of prices; we would have to use two different currencies.
 * I understand your concerns, but we try to keep to the Project:Geographical hierarchy, which means Pacific Northwest can't be both a region of the U.S. and a region of Canada. If you'll notice, Scandinavia is a super-national article; it contains entire countries, not just a few constituent parts of multiple countries.  And Mediterranean redirects to Europe; we don't have an article for it.
 * (WT-en) LtPowers 20:05, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Other destinations
Is there a reason why there are three ski areas in the "Other destinations"? I think there are more diverse places to put on this list, such as the Oregon Coast or the Columbia Gorge? After all, they aren't really like world-class ski resorts and listing three of them seems disporportionate. —The preceding comment was added by 76.104.160.27 (talk • contribs)

map questions
So, we have a UNESCO World Heritage Site in the PNW that does not even make the map, yet the San Juan Islands get a special blue square usually reserved for nation parks and even Mt. St Helens gets a mention despite it not even being a national park, does anyone mind if I work on this a little? At the very least the 4 National Parks in this area should be listed. Lumpytrout (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know why the map only shows four Other Destinations, but the blue square is not "special" in any way. It merely signifies non-city destinations that have articles.  The list of Other Destinations need not be restricted to national parks; otherwise many states like New York wouldn't have any at all.  LtPowers (talk) 20:34, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * you know what LT? I think this might be a bigger discussion for the Pub and I will bring it up there.  I'm not suggesting that ONLY National Parks should be listed, but don't you think that a  National Park at least deserves a passing mention?  North Cascades National Park holds more than half of the glaciers in the lower 48 states and is on many outdoor enthusiasts top 10 world lists but it does not even make the 'other destinations' list?!? of Or that maybe an Unesco World Heritage site might outweigh Opal Creek (which I don't think is even a state park) for making the list?!?  If this section is meant to be a joke, I'm not laughing. Lumpytrout (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Any guide that doesn't appear at Star articles can be assumed to be incomplete. You won't find many guides that don't have obvious omissions.  No one intended any disrespect or intentional slight.  LtPowers (talk) 17:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly what I am worried about right now is the structure of Wikivoyage is geared towards urban areas at the expense of wilderness areas which makes using it difficult, but I will post something about that in the pub. I'm a pretty active wikivoyage user so if you want to just flag something that I'm working on in the future I promise you will get better results.  I appreciate your insight, I'm not overly familiar with the standards so I generally try to look around at what other regions are doing before I try something which does not always serve me well.  I can make this section way better. Lumpytrout (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Consulates
Per Where you can stick it and Huge city article template, consulate and embassy listings should go into the corresponding city article; we don't need to duplicate their listings in state and region articles. LtPowers (talk) 15:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * okay, again I'm just looking at other regions when making style decisions. In this case Florida. Lumpytrout (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll bring it up at the Pub; I thought we'd resolved that. It's possible folks may be willing to have them at the state level (which would be Washington or Oregon here), but I think that the region-level would be pushing it.  LtPowers (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pacific Northwest


text:
Talk:Pacific Ocean

Project:Bodies of water
I think this article doesn't fit our Project:Manual of style; see Project:bodies of water. --(WT-en) Evan 13:57, 30 October 2006 (EST)

 * To avoid having this article be re-created, what about redirecting to Oceania? I would have suggested Islands of the Pacific Ocean, but that now redirects to Oceania. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:06, 30 October 2006 (EST)

 * Sounds good to me. --(WT-en) Evan 14:07, 30 October 2006 (EST)

 * It's wrong, large swathes of the Americas and Asia are also on the Pacific Ocean. I'd delete this page as there is no proper location to redirect it to. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 19:33, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Back in 2006 Islands of the Atlantic Ocean was a top-level region, so this redirect made more sense. Today, since this article is frequently wiki-linked by new users, a disambiguation page or a redirect to Project:Bodies of water probably makes more sense. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:59, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

 * I would suggest disambiguation. --(WT-en) burmesedays 23:38, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

title: Talk:Pacific Ocean


text:
Talk:Packing for a cruise

This potentially useful article focuses on a very useful topic. Unfortunately,...
 * It's current state is far from adequate to recommend its use.
 * Much discussion has been forced into an outline useful for a destination, but not this topic.

Among other improvements (if permitted), it could benefit greatly by providing links to commercial sites with good, objective articles on the subject...articles that would require great effort to equal by WT contributors. But those sites also have commercial purposes, e.g., CruiseCritic, CruiseDiva. (WT-en) hennejohn 3:45 PM EST 4Feb2011

title: Talk:Packing for a cruise


text:
Talk:Packing for a week of hiking

Uh, this seems to be in Franglais? Or am I cross-eyed this morning?

 * perhaps someone can translate? (WT-en) Goodralph 02:33, 12 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * It's from the French Wikivoyage, and I didn't know what everything means. -(WT-en) phma 07:09, 12 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Removed from article:

Preliminaires

 * a priori, pour randonneur; pour les randonneuses, faut prévoir des adaptations ;-)
 * Il est possible que la liste contienne certains belgicismes
 * La liste est prévue pour une rando d'une semaine sur une partie du GR20/Sud (Conca->Vizzavona)
 * Il est probable que la liste ne soit pas complète...

-- (WT-en) Nils 03:39, 16 Jul 2004 (EDT)

For what destinations
I am puzzled about the clothes chosen. No gloves or sweater - but six underwear shirts of different kinds. Seems the choice is for a very specific type of hike. I think we either should have this kinds of lists for different types of destinations or a list covering a much broader set of destinations, which means a lot of commentary about how to pick and choose the right sets. Ideally anything you would go for without a course or a guide should be covered. --LPfi (talk) 07:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Aha, originally Belgian advice for a part of GR20/Sud, Conca->Vizzavona, as stated above (I seem to have been blind). Should still be expanded. --LPfi (talk) 12:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Packing for a week of hiking


text:
Talk:Packing list

Early discussion
Quite impressive list. But do you really carry your credit card(s) and its/their PIN code in one place? One crucial advice: don't. I know what I'm talking about; I've been robbed in Brazil (and nearly robbed in Indonesia). They never got my cards and my PIN codes together. (WT-en) DhDh 01:47, 11 Feb 2004 (EST)

I fail to see the reason for a lot of these. Some I don't even know what are: -(WT-en) phma 21:18, 10 Feb 2004 (EST)
 * Invitation letter: Who's inviting whom to what? - If you are studying abroad or in a place where you need a visa an invitation letter to the country from the college or a private citizen is necessary to get into customs.
 * Marriage certificate: Why?
 * Other documents: Which ones?
 * Sweater: This depends on where you're going.
 * Tidbits or polo: What kind of tidbits? I don't play polo, so why should I bring it? - A polo is just a colared shirt. Obviously necessary as it can be dressed up or down and is comfortable.
 * Pocket knife: This is likely to be confiscated at the airport. - Not in your checked baggage and is a life saver abroad.
 * Torch: I'm not a welder, so why should I carry one? (note from anonymous browser: some people's dialects replace the word 'flashlight' with 'torch'. It really is a good idea to bring a flashlight.)
 * Chess: Chess isn't a video game, and what does a cell phone have to do with either? - You can play chess as a video game on yor cell phone.
 * Collar bones: Hopefully these are in your shoulders, not in your sewing kit! - Collar bones are the sewing materials that you place in the collar of a formal shrt to ensure that the collar lies properly. Hence these are incredibly useful and should be in your sewing kit and not in your shoulders.
 * Inhaler/roll on/nasal spray: This is a contradiction in terms.

Thanks a ton, Some of these are specific brand names available in India. Updated the list with clarifications, take a look. -(WT-en) Sridhar 18:10, 11 Feb 2004 (IST)

So, I like this idea, but I'm worried that it may be hard to do a generic packing list. After all, if I'm going to climb Denali, I need an ice axe more than I need an IDP. Can we do this in a way that's applicable to all travelers' needs? Or should we do different lists for different destinations/activities/types of travel? --(WT-en) Evan 02:13, 11 Feb 2004 (EST)

 * It would make sense to me that locations that have special travel needs should be noted in a "Packing List" or "Don't Forget..." section to an article. -- (WT-en) Yosemite 03:33, 11 Feb 2004 (EST)

Would suggest different packing lists for different activities. I once ended up in Palani (a smalltown in TamilNadu, India) without soap and towel! I was used to staying in business class hotels and never found a reason to carry these and expected to stay in one such hotel in Palani. In the hotel I stayed 'running hot water' was a luxury! So expecting the hotel to provide soap and towel was stupid. I made it a point to add these to my packing list once I returned. -(WT-en) Sridhar 10:25, 11 Feb 2004 (IST)

UK English torch = US english flashlight by the way. Polos are mints here if that helps. (WT-en) Caroline 20:59, 19 Jul 2004 (EDT)

I think this needs lots - including what not to bring, cultural sensitivities etc. One bit of advice from tourist watching in London is don't broadcast where you come from by your clothes. Certainly don't wear anything national/political. Don't have day bags that only open behind you. Don't have large cameras out at all times. Massive rucksacks on your back in crowded areas is a no no. Is this too patronising? (WT-en) Caroline 21:30, 19 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * As much as I alway think "common sense isn't all that common" it's kinda hard to imagine that most travellers don't know at least the basics ("pack clothing for the weather you'll encounter" "Dont walk down empty dark alleys with money stuck to your forehead").
 * I'm also starting to think that this article is too general to be really usefull. There's a Arriving in a new city article that has a related article Tips for travel in developing countries, maybe all of these need to be rethought to be more useful for specific types of trips? There's a big difference between packing for a weekend in LA than a 6 month budget trip to India...

So I've modified the list a little bit. I think it has the following use for travellers: you can print it out, cross off the stuff you aren't taking, and use it as a reference while packing. Speaking as someone on their first major overseas trip, I know that I've deeply regretted not packing some of the things I've listed as Essential and Very useful ;) -- (WT-en) Hypatia 08:24, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

Making your own packing list
Often someone goes through this article and deletes tons of stuff to make the packing list into a list that only has stuff that is useful to them. We don't want that -- we want the list to be universally usable, and each traveller is expected to rewrite the list for themselves. But please don't rewrite it here! Instead, please copy the text of the article into Word and edit it there instead. Alternatively, create a login and make a sandbox page (for example, I have a sandbox at User:(WT-en) Cjensen/sandbox). Copy this article's text into your sandbox and edit it there instead.

If you have already made this mistake and we then removed your changes, here's how to get a copy your old version so you can print it or work on it some more: go to the article web page. Click 'history' which will bring up a list of all old versions. Click on the last version you edited, and your last version of the list will come up. Now cut and paste your old stuff to Word or whatever and work on it there.

Thanks! -- (WT-en) Colin 15:24, 24 Sep 2005 (EDT)

 * I'm sorry, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think this list is "universally usable". It's not, and it never will be... the whole premise of a universal packing list is unworkable.  If you try to make it useful for everyone, it becomes useless for anyone, because what's "essential" for one person going to one place is "useless" to someone else going elsewhere.  You've got things listed as "essential" that I've managed without for cumulative months in various places, and "very useful" items I can't even think of why I'd ever want them.  (Door wedges?)  Too many of the items are "very useful... if you're taking a certain kind of trip", and just clutter up the list if you're not.  Or they don't have any explanation, leaving people to wonder what they are or why they're on the list.  No surprise that people keep trying to edit it down!
 * What might be more useful would be various articles along the lines of "Packing for a cruise", "Packing for a business trip overseas", "Packing for a ski trip", "Packing to study abroad", etc. Those might be close enough to actual packing lists, and reasonable and helpful enough suggestions in their respective contexts, that people won't be so inclined to "correct" them by taking out the things that don't fit with their own prefered kind of travel. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 13:59, 25 March 2006 (EST)

 * Yet another person has tried to fix this so-called "packing list" (which should more accurately be titled Anything you might possibly bring along when you leave the house even if you don't know what it is or why you'd want it but I needed it once), only to be reverted. This is (originally) someone's personal packing list, after all, and despite the attempt at categorizing it by essential/useful/optional, it still reads like one.  Is anyone interested in helping to fix it, or do you all just want to preserve it as the train-wreck that it is? - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 07:22, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

 * Lol. I could actually use that kind of list... hmm, keys, wallet, baby bag, door wedge... Anyway, I think there's always a problem with this type of "common sense" travel info, simply because there's no such thing. Some folks do actually need to be told to bring their passport when they leave the county, pack socks if it's cold, etc etc. But the packing list seems to be so context driven (who are you, where are you going when....) that even the Packing for a cruise (artic or tropic? with children? over 50?) is going to be all over the place or too personal.
 * I'd like to see a real argument & plan for how/why this can work otherwise it gets my vfd. We just dont have a place for personal planning tools right now... (WT-en) Majnoona 09:24, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

 * I think the key to making this sort of thing work is to focus on commonalities (and forget about the door wedges, resumes, and recipe file). Despite personal preferences and different travel specifics, probably 80% of what a given person brings along on a cruise (for example) is also brought by 80% of everyone else.  Someone who's never done that kind of travel would benefit from knowing what most other people bring.  I don't see these being useful as checklists per se, but as general guides from people who've done it before. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:47, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

 * I agree. I've moved some packing advice into Tips for travel in developing countries, where I think it makes more sense. Much of this list strikes me as ludicrous. I don't even own moisturiser, let alone consider it "essential" for packing. (WT-en) Pashley 11:19, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

 * ...but it is essential if you live in the tropics and plan an extended sojourn somewhere very dry. Which just kind of goes to prove the point. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:52, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

Passport
Just a question- why is a passport not listed as essential?
 * Well, not all travel involves leaving your home country, and there are some border crossings that don't require one (e.g. certain EU members, U.S./Canada (at present)). - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:47, 19 April 2006 (EDT)
 * In the EU, when crossing the border, a passport or official identity card is still required. Heck, in some countries (such as the Netherlands) carrying a passport is required at all times, even for locals. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 21:47, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

Complete overhaul
In keeping with the consensus on VFD that something should be kept here, and the general disatisfaction with what was here before, I've taken a stab at rebuilding it as a how-to/ideas article, rather than a checklist. This removes the temptation for people to actually customise the page into their own personal checklist. It also requires people to explain why you should pack any item they add, which should reduce the "what is this and why?" phenomenon. And judgements about "essential" or whatever are put into some context. I tried to incorporate most of the more-commonly-practical list items into the article as bold suggestions to consider in building one's own packing list. If I left out your favorite "door wedge" or "recipe file" or "resumés", you're quite welcome to add it if you feel people in general will benefit from that advice, but be prepared for others to disagree and edit accordingly. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:29, 20 May 2006 (EDT)

 * Nice work. I've edited in several places. (WT-en) Pashley 21:20, 20 May 2006 (EDT)

VFD discussion

 * This page is of no practical use. It is useless as an actual packing list, because it includes items that are useful only for some kinds of travel and omits items that are useful in others.  It's one person's comprehensive things-I-might-ever-bring packing list, slightly edited.  In fact, most times when people make good-faith attempts to edit this page, one of its guardians reverts it, even when the edits are not the kind of blatant personalization that originally inspired this unilateral, no-discussion pattern of reversion.  I believe this is inappropriate, but my attempt to question it on the Talk page has been mostly ignored.  The combination of this page's uselessness and the fact that it inspires this kind of behavior by otherwise responsible editors are why I think Wikivoyage would be better without it.  Delete.  - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 22:47, 2 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Oppose. Sure, this list isn't useful as a packing list for most people -- but that's because no list could be.  This is more a list of things to consider packing, and in most cases the user can cross each useless item out in one second and move on.  I have lists that are just for me, and when I use them I do the same thing even though they are already tailored for me -- cross out the items which don't apply to my trip of the day.  For me, an online list like this could have been the start for one of my lists when I originally wrote it.  Yeah, I would've modified the heck out of it, but it's a start and includes things that I forgot were important until the third or fourth revision of my personal list.  Could this article be improved?  Of course, but we don't delete articles which could be travel topics -- we only delete ones which could never become a topic. I could however, support renaming this to "How to make a packing list" and adapting it to the new, improved topic. -- (WT-en) Colin 16:25, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I don't think this article (current name and contents) is a valid travel topic, nor can it be. The premise of the article is unsound: a completely generic packing list is as pointless as a restaurant list for Europe.  It tries too hard to think of everything, and inevitably fails at it.  More focused and in-depth guides (e.g. Packing for a cruise) could be useful.  Now, you say this article could be improved, but I don't see any substantial improvement happening in the 2+ years since it was created (despite a lot of editing)... unless of course you count the addition of a friendly red warningbox telling people that they're not allowed to take anything out, but may only add to the list, to make it more "complete".  I don't think that will make it useful.  I'm sorry, but the emperor here has packed no clothes.  This article was DOA, and it's time we stopped reverting it and pronounced it dead. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:15, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Oppose. The list could obviously be improved, but shouldn't be deleted. A packing list is included in all guidebooks that I have read because it is useful - it propts you to think about things even if you won't need them. This list does the same - it helps you think and you mentally discard/ignore the items that don't apply. -- (WT-en) DanielC 16:33, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
 * It actually just makes me marvel at the things someone inexplicably found "essential" or "very useful"... and the irony that "OCD meds" somehow got left off the list. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:15, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep. Makes you think about what need to take. Can be a quick reference for people like me that have a mind melt just before time to start packing. - (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 18:50, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Delete. Wow, this page has really changed from when I voted. To be honest, I think the page is worthless now. The other page could have been tweeked, but I voted for a list not this! I know Todd has strong feelings about what was there before. I don't, but I want my vote to be clear. The list is much better for me, it is quick, makes you think. I'm a scatter brained and the "list" is much better for me. I would not use what is there now. -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 10:56, 21 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep, but edit into something more sensible. I've been travelling for years without much of the stuff it calls "essential". (WT-en) Pashley 04:23, 13 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 08:28, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Comment: Since it seems there are several people who want to keep this train-wreck, could I ask you folks to engage in editing it, instead of just reverting it when someone who disagrees with your no-deletions policy tries to improve it? I tried to address the question of whether this page was of use on Talk:Packing list, and suggested an alternative that I thought would be more useful, and only Maj responded; none of the sentinels who've been page-protecting it did.  She asked for a plan for how this page (or any page about packing) could be done so it would actually work; no one offered any.  Just another immediate revert of the next anonymous edit.  Project:consensus says "Unless it is clearly vandalism or graffiti, simply reverting somebody else's changes will normally be unhelpful."  When someone removes "recipes" or "resumes" or "tongue cleaner" from the list, that isn't vandalism; please stop treating it as such. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 10:10, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I looked at my history with the article; I reverted changes like deleting "bottle of water" without explanation. Also deleting "business cards" and adding "Spanish phrase book" without explanation.  While not malicious vandalism, this makes the article worse, not better.  I have no problem reverting that.  It's hard, if not impossible, to discuss these changes with anonymous users who don't leave comments.  The issue of improving the article is a separate one...if a stub article keeps getting vandalized, do I have a responsibility to improve it if I revert changes and vote "Keep"?  -- (WT-en) Jonboy 10:31, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
 * If someone makes selective edits such as removing a few items and/or inserting a few, that's not vandalism. That's a disagreement.  Maybe you believe that removing "business cards" makes it a worse list, but that anon editor doesn't (and neither do I).  The appropriate solution to that kind of general difference of opinion is to discuss it on the article's Talk page, which is what I tried to do. If someone is going to put a page on their watchlist and revert changes to it, they have a responsibility to pay attention to its Talk page, in case someone expresses a differing opinion, and if that happens: address it.  Yes, discussing changes with anonymous editors is hard... but discussing them with other regular editors is not. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 12:44, 16 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep and tag for cleanup. Would be helpful if sections such as Cruise, Europe, North America, etc were formed, with an intro about how writing your own packing list is helpful in preparing for a trip. One puppy's opinion. (WT-en) KillerChihuahua 11:02, 19 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep, in line with Colin's opinion above. (WT-en) Ricardo (Rmx) 14:29, 20 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Withdrawn. In keeping with the consensus that something should be kept there, and the general disatisfaction with what's there now, I'm going to take a stab at rebuilding it as a how-to/ideas article (rather than a checklist). - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:24, 20 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep the new version. It was painfully pointless to continue tinkering with a universal packing list. (WT-en) Todd's converting it into a series of queries about a particular individual's specific trip should be sufficient to get most reasonable travelers thinking about what to pack. (WT-en) SHC 18:09, 20 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Keep the new version. (WT-en) Pashley 02:54, 21 May 2006 (EDT)
 * So this is a rare consensus achieved. I am closing this VFD as Keep — (WT-en) Ravikiran 07:20, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

Universal Packing List
I'm the maintainer of The Universal packing List (http://upl.codeq.info), and I think it is a useful concept. But it has to be a program. It is even a rather advanced program, where you fill in what kind of travel you want to do, and it will generate a packing list for you. As such it is very popular - I get approx 300 visitors every day, and so far 1.7+ million over the years. What this wiki page contains is also useful, but not useful enough for a specific trip. IMHO. Mats Henricson, 2007-01-08

tampons
ok, not that it really matters so much, but do you consider tampons more of a "stay safe" issue than a "clothing" issue? Cause I sure don't... – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 23:11, 24 April 2007 (EDT)

 * I think they make sense as a "stay healthy" issue, which is where they're mentioned, along with other personal-hygiene items. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 00:09, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

 * Ooops, my mistake... read that a little too quickly... yes, stay healthy makes the most sense. I thought someone was using the all new tampon/buoy knife hybrid or something.

 * On a lighter note Todd, when you first started editing Wikivoyage, did you ever foresee yourself making an edit that would be summed up as "consolidate tampon comments" ? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:16, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

 * It was, in fact, one of my dreams. (I've had nightmares like that since I was a wee boy.) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 14:23, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Amusement, entertainment
This is a subject that might need it's own page. Books, music (iPods in particular), laptops and such have its own quirks that advices might be given on. Keep the info that is already available on the page (perhaps even shorten it a bit), with a link to the new page.

Alternative banner for this article?
I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 04:25, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I was confused at first. The current banner doesn't really look like it's for "Packing list" at all (I mean, I get it, but it's a stretch), though it's a beautiful banner and should be used somewhere. This is an obvious one to change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I agree here, but the new one really isn't a nice picture. I can see the thinking behind choosing the current banner, and I find it quite brilliant, so no reason to rush - do we have better pics of stuff ready for packing/packed that we could start from? PrinceGloria (talk) 14:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Do we have an article for hiking or mountain climbing? If yes the current banner might be of use there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Good idea - it's quite a nice banner, so it would be good to use it somewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I think the more relaxed current banner at Hiking suits that article better. We have Wilderness backpacking (now with a campfire as banner) and we should have mountain climbing (now a redirect to rock climbing). --LPfi (talk) 22:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Proposed Syced (talk) 07:49, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

What's a duffle? Also, please reduce the Britishisms
There are quite some Britishisms in this article that not all of our international audience will necessarily understand. Furthermore wireless Internet is not spelled consistently nor in accordance with our manual of style. In addition to that there is at least one wording that a comment claims to be misleading... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:04, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I've always seen that spelled "duffel bag". Do the Brits spell it "duffle"? Duffel bags. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:08, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Apparently. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:20, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I respelled them "duffel bags". Now, what about "travelers cheques"? I'd spell that "travelers' checks". Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Doesn't the MOS say to not replace British spelling with American?  Also, travelers' cheques is probably the better spelling, because that's what all three of the most common brands (AmEx, VISA, and Thomas Cook) have printed on the front.   WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, roger that on travelers' cheques. Site policy on spelling is at Spelling. Key points:

 * If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer US English spelling. This isn't because US English is somehow better or to stomp on the rights, heritage, and cultures of other English-speaking countries. We just have decided to pick one default spelling style for consistency.

 * However, it is generally seen as bad style to change the spelling without rhyme or reason or - worse yet - edit war over such trivial things as spelling.

 * If it's really important for consistency in spelling in this article to change "duffel" back to "duffle", go ahead, but neither User:Hobbitschuster nor I recognized the spelling, which I guess I'd chalk up to a lack of knowledge (I know most British spellings but hadn't seen that one). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Document organization tip: where to potentially add?
Hi everyone,

I recently learned a travel tip from Organizing for Dummies--to use plastic envelopes to carry tickets and other documents. I think it sounds like a good thing to add here, but do you think it would fit better under Packing list or Packing list?

Thank you for your help,

OpenBarry (talk) 02:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

 * Unless it's an offical site, it probably can't be listed per External links. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 03:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

 * There aren't official sites for articles like this, so don't add the link. The advice could be added though, with another wording (the advice is hardly patented and copyright covers only the wording). I think "Organizing items in baggage" is the better section, as the advice (or related advice) may apply to other things too. –LPfi (talk) 07:02, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
 * –LPfi (talk) 07:03, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Packing list