text:
Talk:Southwestern Colorado

Mesa Verde
From Eat:
 * Mesa Verde - Far View Terrace Navajo Hill @ Mile 15, inside Mesa Verde - 529-4444
 * Mesa Verde - Metate Room Navajo Hill @ Mile 15, inside Mesa Verde - 529-4423
 * Mesa Verde - Spruce Tree Terrace 9 miles inside Mesa Verde - 529-4521

Is "Mesa Verde" refering to the park? if so, these should be moved to the Mesa Verde National Park page... I just wasn't sure... (WT-en) Majnoona 16:02, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

Counties
Can we axe the counties list? I feel that this region is highly unlikely to ever be subdivided into county articles, and besides that unlikely possibility, a flat list of county names is highly irrelevant for the traveller. (WT-en) Texugo 23:18, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * Deleted. The Counties List is too granular a breakdown for regions. (WT-en) WineCountryInn 12:56, 30 January 2009 (EST)

Cities List
Cleaning up the cities lists for all the Colorado regions. The three largest communities, Delta, Gunnison and Montrose are not represented here, and the list is highly centered on the southwestern part of the region. I vote that we replace Creede, Mancos and Dolores with these three towns. (WT-en) WineCountryInn 12:56, 30 January 2009 (EST)
 * Replaced Creede, Mancos and Dolores with Montrose, Gunnison and Ouray. (WT-en) WineCountryInn 21:21, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Subregions and counties - Finding a home for Cedaredge
I know that the counties were removed from this region, but can someone create some sub regions or suggest better names for regions that the counties, so that I don't need to foist places like the orphan page Cedaredge onto an article that has a full list of bigger places. - (WT-en) Huttite 08:50, 13 November 2009 (EST)

 * Individual county pages would not make for a very good subdivision—there are too many, and each on its own would have extremely little content. But I agree that adding tiny outline cities to the main list of such a good region article would be undesirable. I'll take a stab at a division, keeping in mind my limited knowledge of the region, but I'm sure (WT-en) Bill would know better how best to do this:

 * Ute and Mesa Verde Country in the extreme west/southwest
 * Rio Grande Mountains in the east/southeast
 * Durango and the San Juan Mountains between the two above regions
 * Gunnison and Western Ski Slopes

 * Does that look plausible? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:05, 14 November 2009 (EST)
 * It's plausible (with some fine tuning) at first glance, but strikes me as gilding the lily. Population centers in this region are few and far between, with repeats of the orphaned Cedaredge rather unlikely.  If Wikivoyage stressed "outdoors" attractions, a subdivision would certainly be justified; this region is a hiker's/RVer's/river-runner's paradise and has very distinct sub-regional flavors worth differentiating.  With a focus more "urban" in nature, I don't see the value added.  But I'll look at these regions and make some comments by the end of the weekend.  (BTW, make sure to include the dashes in my handle.) -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 20:10, 14 November 2009 (EST)
 * OK, on looking at this a bit more, I think that Cedaredge is in fact a good diagnostic on what it would mean to do this "right." In Colorado, as with most of the Rocky Mountain states (including New Mexico, which isn't formally part of our Rocky Mountains region), county lines make for a notably poor way of splitting up a state or region, because the geographic, cultural, recreational identities of regions are dominated by their geology, not political constructs like county lines.  I would claim that from practically any standpoint useful to a traveler other than simply locating it on a map, Cedaredge fits much better into Northwestern Colorado than into this region, because that's what it is like -- small town on the edge of Grand Mesa (the dominant feature of that part of the state) with the cultural and recreational opportunities that that implies.

 * That said, if it really is necessary to subdivide this region (and I'm still not convinced that it is), your proposal should work with comparatively minor tweaking, except for one thing. I'd definitely want to do something to reduce the size of the Gunnison/Western Slopes region.  One possibility might be to rename your "Rio Grande Mountains" region as the "High Rockies" region and extend it northward almost to Aspen.  That accomplishes the goal of balancing the sizes, and is defensible on cultural/recreational grounds as well; it then captures the real backbone of Colorado in a way that should allow a sensible region article to be written. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:24, 23 November 2009 (EST)

Car rental listings
The Wikivoyage standard is that if it's easy to rent a car, no listings are given, and I think that's probably particularly true at the regional level, where specific listings of anything usually aren't given. Does anyone object to my deleting all the car rental listings? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Southwestern Colorado


text:
Talk:Southwestern France

shouldn't we change this to a region outline?
 * Sure, Project:Plunge forward and do it! (WT-en) Maj 09:17, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Southwestern France


text:
Talk:Southwestern Georgia

Sub-regions
I do not think that Ajaria and Guria need separate region articles from Southwestern Georgia. Most information would be duplicate between the articles, and given that we have so little travel content about this section of the country, there is no need to split it across three articles. Of course, if at a later point in time this article is filled up and there is much content that could be moved to sub-region articles, then lets create those Ajara and Guria articles. But that time is not now. Please also see Project:Geographical hierarchy. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:41, 14 January 2008 (EST)

title: Talk:Southwestern Georgia


text:
Talk:Southwestern Tamil Nadu

Dindigul District
(copied in from User talk:(WT-en) ClausHansen)

Dindigul district is a district in the state of Tamilnadu and it is clearly mentioned that Dindigul city is the capital of this district. So this can not be merged to Dindigul city as the places mentioned in this page are in the Dindigul district and not in the main dindigul city. For more information, Pls go thru official site for the governmanet http://www.dindigul.tn.nic.in/

I would like to remove the tag .. merge city.. LEt me know pls

(WT-en) Kbala1055 03:56, 10 June 2010 (EDT)

 * Southwestern Tamil Nadu is so far not subdivided in subregions (except for Dindigul District). This is why I suggest we merge the district article into the city article.  However, the Southwestern Tamil Nadu article does have more than nine linked cities which is an argument for subdividing (ie keeping Dindigul District region article, establishing the other three region articles and moving cities to the respective region articles).  I would prefer to wait with the further sub-regionalisation until the present articles are further developed, but either way is fine for me.  Anyhow, it is a mess to have an article for Dindigul District and not for the other three districts, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 04:26, 10 June 2010 (EDT)

There are a lot of sites that are in Dindigul city that are worth visiting and as a result it is worth keeping. Madurai, Theni and Viruthunagar are also some of many districts in S outh West Tamilnadu with headquarters based in Madurai City, Theni city/town, Viruthunagar city/town. I can create the link for Dindigul district in the south western Tamilnadu page.. That would help in sub-regionalisation..kbala1055 - 10 june 2010

Hi Claus, I would like to remove the tag for Merging.. LEt me know if I can - (WT-en) Kbala1055 06:19, 14 June 2010 (EDT)

Hi Guys,

The southwestern TN is divided into districts, the districts into various sub-divisions called Taluks and each district has a city/town as headquarters.

If you see the following official websites www.dindigul.tn.nic.in for dindigul district

www.madurai.tn.nic.in for madurai district,

www.theni.tn.nic.in for Theni district and for virudhunagar, the

district cannot be completely described in the city and city is a narrow sub-division of district. City cannot cover all the places in the district. It is advised that district and city pages be kept separate. Hope you understand this.
 * Dindigul Refer Dindigul district for travel sites in this area. The sub-divisions or taluks of Palani, Kodaikanal, Viruveedu, Dindigul city, Vedasandur, Athur, Nilakottai, Batlagundu and a few others form a part of this district.
 * Madurai Refer Madurai district for travel sites in this area.
 * Theni Refer Theni district for travel sites in this area. This district contains sub-divisions or taluks given below like Periyakulam and Theni.
 * Virudhunagar Refer Virudhunagar district for travel sites in this area. This district contains of many sub-divisions or taluks given below like Rajapalayam, Sattur, Sivakasi, Srivilliputhur and Aruppukottai. (WT-en) Kbala1055 00:02, 27 June 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Southwestern Tamil Nadu


text:
Talk:Southwestern Zealand

New Hierachy
Proposal for a new hierachy where all attractions in the area I could find belong somewhere.

West Zealand (11 Cities)

 * Odsherred
 * Odsherred Kulturhistoriske museum
 * Anneberg Samlingerne
 * Odsherred Svømmehal (Vig)
 * Holbæk
 * Andelslandsbyen Nyvang
 * Tyrkisk Bad
 * Holbæk Søbad Venedig
 * Sortebrødreklostret
 * Ugerløse Kirke
 * Jyderup
 * Buerup Træskomuseum
 * Kalundborg
 * Kalundborg og Omegns museum
 * Den Gl. Latinskole
 * Vor Frue Kirke
 * Højbyen
 * Landbo Museet Birkendegård
 * Kalundborg Museum
 * Lerchenborg Gods
 * Roskilde
 * Ringsted
 * Valsøgård
 * Humleore Borgruin
 * Wickerwork
 * The Springs in St. Bøgeskov
 * Jystrup
 * Sporvejsmuseet Skjoldenæsholm
 * Skjoldenæsholm Gods
 * Sorø
 * Slagelse
 * Arena Cirkusland
 * Gerlev Legepark
 * Trelleborg
 * Slagelse Mejericenter
 * Slagelse Museum / HC Andersen museum
 * Gerlev Legepark
 * Mullerup Stenene
 * Korsør
 * Kongegaarden
 * Stapels Gård
 * Isbådsmuseet
 * MS Græsholm
 * Høng
 * De 5 bautasten
 * Løve Mølle

South Zealand (10 Cities)

 * Køge
 * Køge Miniby
 * Køge Skitsesamling
 * Køge Museum
 * Næstved
 * Næstved Zoo
 * Vestsjællands Bilmuseum
 * Gavnø Slot
 * Herlufsholm
 * Næstved Museum Boderne
 * Rønnebæksholm Kunst- og Kulturcenter
 * Grønnegades Kaserne Kulturcenter
 * Glumsø
 * Dansk Cykel og Knallers Museum
 * Næsbyholm Slot
 * Faxe/Faxe Ladeplads
 * Feddet Camping
 * Jomfruens Egede
 * Haslev
 * Det Blå Marked
 * Gisselfeld kloster
 * Store Hedinge
 * Gjorslev
 * Vordingborg
 * Danmarks Borgcenter
 * Sydsjællands Museum
 * Masnedø Fort
 * Historisk Botanisk Have
 * Vordingborg Slots Ruiner
 * Præstø
 * Skælskør
 * Turbåden Skælskør
 * Herreborgen Borreby
 * Stevns
 * Stevens Klint

Towns with attractions where you can NOT sleep
ODSHERRED' KALUNDBORG LEJRE NÆSTVED STEVNS
 * Asnæs (Skamlebæk Strand, Veddinge Bakker) → Odsherred
 * Odsherred Zoo
 * Ulsborg
 * Odsherreds Brandmuseum
 * Svinninge → Odsherred
 * Sommerland Sjælland
 * Grevinge → Odsherred
 * Malergården
 * Odsherred Eventpark
 * Gørlev → Høng
 * Reersø Museum
 * Reersø Amerikanerbil Museum
 * Landbrugsmuseet Fløjgården
 * Reersø Galleriet
 * Lejre → Roskilde (fits good with the Viking theme)
 * Lejre Forsøgscenter
 * Ledreborg Slot
 * Ship-formed burial place by Gl. Lejre
 * Kirke Hvalsø → Roskilde
 * Tadre Mill
 * Ruds Vedby → Høng
 * Kragerup Gods
 * Kragerup Go High
 * Holme Olstrup → Næstved
 * Bonbonland
 * Holmegaard Gods
 * Rødvig → Stevns
 * Stevns Klint

Redirects

 * Hørve (Odsherred)
 * Gislinge (Odsherred)
 * Regstrup (Holbæk)
 * Vipperød (Holbæk)
 * Tølløse (Holbæk)
 * Ubby (Kalundborg)
 * Svebølle (Kalundborg)
 * Strøby Egede (Køge)
 * Vallø (Køge)
 * Borup (Jystrup)
 * Viby Sj.(Roskilde)
 * Pedersborg (Sorø)
 * Karrebæk(sminde) (Næstved)
 * Enø (Næstved)
 * Hårlev (Stevns)
 * Karise (Stevns)
 * Dianalund (Høng)
 * Rønnede (Faxe)
 * Herfølge (Køge)
 * Fensmark (Næstved)
 * Fuglebjerg (Næstved)

 * I think this looks fine. But do we really need a page for Jystrup (village of a few hundred people), could we not include Skjoldnæsholm in Ringsted Article instead? Further, I have considered if the name West Zealand is really the best possible, it feels a bit strange that Ringsted and Roskilde are in a region called West Zealand.  Anyone with better ideas? (WT-en) ClausHansen 12:56, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Ringsted was part of Vestsjællands Amt, and Roskilde is due west of Copenhagen, just short of the old border, so I think it's a fine name. Jystrup was an attempt to be consistent, since it has a large attraction AND a good place to sleep, though it is probably the two only listings this town will ever get. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:39, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

title: Talk:Southwestern Zealand


text:
Talk:South West Florida

Is there a reason this is at "South West Florida" rather than Southwest Florida? --(WT-en) Evan 08:56, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * It gets better... Yesterday I saw that a Tampa Bay region was listed under Central Florida, so I did isIn for Tampa, St. Petersburg (Florida) and Clearwater under that. They also appear here under South West Florida. Need to work out where the regions are and a hierarchy that is good for Florida. I worked in St. Petersburg (Florida) and Clearwater for about 8 weeks, I am not really the one to work this out. Do we have a good Florida person? Should Tampa Bay be here? I am guessing it should. -- (WT-en) Xltel 10:58, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:South West Florida


text:
Talk:South Yorkshire

Towns
Shefields the only city in South yorkshire, the rest are Towns. someon needs to chage it.

 * In WIkitravel all places, including towns are called cities for simplicity. -- (WT-en) DanielC 07:57, 6 April 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:South Yorkshire


text:
Talk:Space

Travel topic?
Template:Traveltopic was recently removed from this article. Do we now consider it a destination, and part of our geographical hierarchy? If so, Template:Usabletopic also needs to be changed. LtPowers (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Given that extremely few people have traveled to space and those affordable space trips that Virgin Galactic and others promised were just around the corner 10-15 years ago are still unheard of, would it be a good idea to classify this article as a travel topic (which it, per the above comment, seems to have been in 2013)? I mean, most people's "space travel" is limited to destinations on Earth like Cape Canaveral, and if we have a set of attractions of a certain kind around the world we usually collect them in a topic article. Nevertheless if we decide to keep Space as a destination, would it maybe be a good idea to create a separate topic article for "Space destinations on Earth" and move most listings from Space to that article. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:07, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

 * What do you all say? ϒpsilon (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

 * If it were part of the hierarchy, it would appear first on every set of breadcrumbs, and we'd have to add Earth to boot. It's probably a travel topic. Powers (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Banner
While the current banner image is quite beautiful, I fear it's a bit misleading. The article is not about interstellar space; it's essentially limited to Earth orbit. LtPowers (talk) 12:53, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

International Space Station as hotel?
I'm pretty sure an American paid to go up to the ISS and stay a few nights... would that qualify as a hotel? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, surely not. But as a "Sleep" listing? Yes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Mars map
Interactive map of Mars now available:

http://marstrek.jpl.nasa.gov/

Not sure how much there is under 'see' and 'do' yet... --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:52, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Mars? No way to "Get in" yet, which leaves it a joke destination (Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense/Mars) for now. At least Moon and Space have actually been done. It might be possible to "See" with a telescope, but not to actually go there. K7L (talk) 03:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Wow, that is one way to take a light subject way too seriously I guess. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:22, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 * We will get there. Eventually. Just like trains will cross North America as fast as they already did in the 1930s.... Eventually. (okay the last one is rather unfair coming from somebody who lives in a city that had a faster connection to Berlin by steam train in 1935 than it has today. And that city has half a million people in it...) And once we have the first human sleeping on mars, it absolutely becomes a legit destination. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Don't be silly... tiny agricultural villages like this one will never become part of the national passenger rail system. There's really no substitute for the horse. K7L (talk) 14:14, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 * That reminds me of the Nicaraguan rail network, that was literally sold for scraps to please the IMF or World Bank in the early nineties (the scraps were sold as down payment for some loan or other). And yes horse is a common mode of transport even in Managua... If I had the necessary billions of dollars, I'd build a private rail system for Central America to kick the airlines' asses (flying from Managua to San Salvador can be as expensive as NYC-LAX)... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

The small "s" at the end of America
Before this turns into an inadvertent edit war... I think America here is and should be singular, apparently this is not consensus. Who is right? And if we can't agree, how should we reformulate? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. "North, Central and South Americas" is weird in the extreme to my ears and eyes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's weird because it's unusual, but isn't the 's' necessary grammatically? We're talking about three Americas here. Powers (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we aren't - at least not grammatically. We are listing several items of the same kind (grammatically speaking) with one each. Let's give an example that does not involve any number of Americas... "I have a green, a yellow and a red tissue". In that case we would also not say "tissues", or am I mistaken? Anyway, maybe the phrase could be reformulated? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No, Powers, I don't see it as necessary at all to use "s", as this is an enumeration of 3 different geographical regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * With respect, Ikan, I'm afraid your sentence is nonsensical. Why would being an enumeration of multiple regions negate the need to pluralize a noun? Isn't that precisely the type of situation in which we pluralize nouns? Hobbit, you're correct in that situation, but I read the sentence as more akin to "We have Mercy, Eastside, and Hilltop Hospitals in our city."  Or "The Cancer, Heart Disease, and Emphysema Societies today announced a collaboration." Powers (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I agree with Ikan - it should not have an "s" since it is an abbreviated list of proper names. To use a similar example, you would either write "I am going to visit Ray, Edith and Julie Bradbury" (singular) or "I am going to visit the Bradburys" (plural). -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:17, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will concede, but I'm still curious as to the difference this sentence presents compared to the proper nouns I used in my examples. Powers (talk) 00:05, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

The "PartOfTopic" Field
I think "Activities" is shoehorning a round topic into a square hole or vice versa... Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

 * I agree. This is an unusual topic that kind of defies categorization, but maybe Natural attractions would be a better fit. Or Other destinations, although I think this functions more as a travel topic article than a destination article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:57, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Virtual reality travel into space
Courtesy of NASA, the future of affordable space tourism is here. (Sorry I have been AWOL lately, I'll be back soon. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:09, 3 June 2018 (UTC))

Unmanned exploration listings
I see that some listings which I'd originally contributed to Mars (planet) or Unmanned exploration have been copy-pasted here after that article was removed. I've already removed these once and ask that you please do not add these verbatim again; the selection of venues (largely museums) and the descriptions of those venues were written in a specific way so as to emphasise just the portion of those collections which describe unmanned exploration, which is a different topic from the space tourism described in this article. As such, my description of the connection of some random museum to unmanned exploration makes no sense when dumped into this article - which has a different topic. I shall be removing these, as the original author of the text. If you think one of the same museums has content which relates to the topic of this article, create your own listings with your own descriptions in your own words explaining the connection to this topic - but don't re-use something which doesn't fit because it was intended for use somewhere else. Thank you. K7L (talk) 13:15, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Central America and the Middle East
In the go next section, why is Central America seperate from North America and the Middle East seperate from Asia and Africa? Neither of these are considered seperate continents in any definition. Bobbbcat (talk) 01:26, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

 * I've adjusted it, so it now says

Once you've exhausted the Moon, there are countless opportunities for exploration and discovery down on the surface, in places such as Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, South America, Australia, Antarctica, and countless islands in between.

 * I've removed those and added Australia and Antarctica instead.

 * It doesn't matter much, though. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 03:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Regionify?
In the Get In section, there's listings for Sub-orbital space, Orbital space and Trans-orbital space. Should separate articles be created for Sub-orbital space and Orbital space (Moon covers Trans-orbital space as it's the only place we can get to in Trans-orbital space for now)? SmileKat40 (talk) 00:07, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Would there be enough content to fill those articles? Currently this article isn't overly long, and the sections you've indicated are very short. I'd say first let's keep adding content to this article, and only split out separate articles if we need to. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:12, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * What about the International Space Station? There should be some content there. SmileKat40 (talk) 15:18, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned in the "Orbital flight" section. I'm not sure if there's much more to say – Wikipedia says tourist trips to the ISS stopped in 2009 – but if you have other useful information, please do add it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:18, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, SmileKat40, I noticed you added the regions. I can foresee a need for them at some point in the future, but I really don't think we're there yet, so I'd have to support reverting that edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:29, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * So let's not make the regions into separate articles yet. But see how West Antarctica have a region list without articles about them? We might as well just leave the Regions list there for now. SmileKat40 (talk) 02:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Why? This site is for the benefit of current-day travelers. In 20 years if there is lots of civilian space travel, we can revisit this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It looks like we have to renew this discussion. I haven't changed my mind. I'm OK with tolerating the regions listed under "Earth," but everything beyond that should be removed from this page because no humans have traveled to any of them. I'd like to give CactiStaccingCrane a chance to move the rest of "Regions" to their user page, but it can't stay here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Ikan Kekek, fair played. About separating the article to different sections, I would not do so because there is limited resources on these trips. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:56, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I would still keep the interplanetary stuff on the article, but I agree that there is no need to regionify right now. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:00, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * What you're doing, at this point, is calling human travel to the Moon "interplanetary spacecraft." That's OK, and I have no quarrel with the current contents of the "By interplanetary spacecraft" section. But anything beyond that hasn't been done by humans yet and therefore can't be covered by a travel guide today. Thanks for working with us; I know this is a topic you're enthusiastic about, but in a travel guide, we have to keep a focus on travel that's currently feasible for non-innovators. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Is this really a travel topic?
Now, I know this has came up before, but it seems kind of unreasonable for space to be a travel topic since it is the region that's above 100km of altitude. And the statement made by Powers earlier states that "If Space is a travel topic, then we'll need to have Earth to boot." Well, in Spanish Wikivoyage, the Space article bypassed this problem by making this a continent. And in Chinese Wikivoyage (which I'm also active at), the Space article also bypassed this problem by breadcrumbing this to Other Destinations. So is this really a travel topic? SmileKat40 (talk) 07:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's a travel topic. Earth is the default, so I don't see the analogy for human beings. It's not a continent any more than oceans are, but neither is it an ocean. It's space, the final frontier, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the breadcrumbing is debatable, but the article is structured more like a travel topic than anything else. "See", "Eat", "Sleep", etc. don't contain real listings, so it's not like a city or park article, and there are no articles breadcrumbed under it, so it's not like a region article. Someday in the future, if there's a network of space stations that are each big enough to merit their own article, it might make sense to have space as a region article, but right now I think it makes more sense as a travel topic. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * There is the Moon which is breadcrumbed under Space. SmileKat40 (talk) 10:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right, I forgot. It's a unique article that somewhat defies categorization. By the way, you misquoted LtPowers above - the comment you're referring to was arguing that the article should be a travel topic. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

"Ships" in space?
I had just noticed this sentence at the end of the Understand section: "So a space suit must be worn when outside of ships and space stations." What does "ships" in this sentence mean? Spaceships, or is this a mistake? The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 06:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It surely means spaceships. What else could it mean? —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:58, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Videos about living in space
Those who are interested in this article might enjoy this series of videos from Wired about life in space:. Some of the information could possibly be used to expand this article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:52, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Space hotel
NASA Names Axiom Space to Build Its Space Hotel Pashley (talk) 05:43, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Guide status?
This article sure had improved by a lot since I stopped editing this. I don't see any omissions, there are lots of listings, there's a custom pagebanner, and it follows the Manual of Style pretty well. Is this guide status yet? SmileKat40 (talk) 10:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 * I would say so. Welcome back, too :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. I think the See and Do sections could use a little reorganizing and copyediting, but overall this article is in pretty good shape. --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I had copyedited the article to make it more like a Guide. SmileKat40 (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Seeing that there's no opposing opinion, I had changed the article to a guide. SmileKat40 (talk) 04:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Space hotel?
First-Ever Luxury Space Hotel Nears Launch, "The first prototype for an orbital hotel with artificial gravity may launch as soon as 2023." Pashley (talk) 05:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Should we include a discussion on where space starts?
I think it is a not-unimportant question to discuss - maybe in an infobox? I think we should at least mention the Kármán line and the (lower) definition for "astronaut wings" the U.S. military uses... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Split article between space and space flight sites?
As brought up in Dotm, we should consider dividing this article in two; one about the extraordinary adventure of actually visiting space, and one about the much more accessible visiting on ground-level sites related to space flight. /Yvwv (talk) 18:10, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I created the article space flight sites from the relevant sections of this article. Possibly, we could remove those sites from here. /Yvwv (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Issues
We've had a major expansion of this article by CactiStaccingCrane; thank you! I see a couple of issues: (1) "Space-fairing" is a misspelling. To travel is to fare, not fair. (2) Video files can't be used on Wikivoyage per Image policy and need to be removed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 * Ikan Kekek, ok, done! Thanks for noticing me of these issues. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 * Sure thing! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * To be fair, do you expect someone to print this page then go to space? That would be a major milestone for Wikivoyage for that matter... CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 05:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I wouldn't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Resources
This section is used to list less well-known resources about space tourism. Feel free to add or comment on it. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yusaku Maezawa's videos are really good at showing a space tourist's experiences in practice.
 * Spaceports in OsmAnd (and other OpenStreetMap-based apps) Osmand_spaceport.jpg
 * POIs : https://industry.openmaps.space (Space tourism on Earth) Dulliman (talk) 13:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item is missing permission
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item is missing permission information and may be deleted: You can see the details at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:23, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * New shepard launch june 19 2016.jpg
 * Not visible on this page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Static "map" of regions around space
I think the regions of space (LEO, MEO, GEO etc.) should be shown in a static "map" (or diagram), otherwise colour coding the regions using regionlist is unnecessary. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Agreed. A diagram (preferably to-scale, especially to convey the distance between MEOs and GEOs) would be helpful. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 07:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Space


text:
Talk:Space-A travel

Removed from the article - for data-mining... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:53, 25 December 2008 (EST)

title: Talk:Space-A travel


text:
Talk:Space World

Please read the Project:What is an article guideline before adding to this article. I think this information should be incorporated into Kitakyushu and have recommended this article for deletion. -- (WT-en) Huttite 07:36, 27 Jul 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Space World


text:
Talk:Spain

Archived old discussions
There appear to be no recent discussions on this page. All discussions prior to 2013 are in the Talk:Spain/Archive 2003-2012 page Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Lack of History
Compared to most other country articles, Spain has almost no history! This seems a strange oversight considering there is a lot of source material, from the Moors to the conquistadors in the Americas to the civil war and the Franco period. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:45, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

 * I added some though there are probably some errors in what I added. The Franco era is still mostly glossed over, though. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

 * That's cool. The Franco era was relatively recent, so too much opinion one way or the other will probably offend someone. I think the 'high level' fact are correct (Human rights abuses, oppression of regional identities, economic boom, etc) and should likely be accepted by both sides Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Wait, we're really going to worry about potentially offending pro-Fascists? I haven't had a look at what's been added, so far. I don't think that disproportionate space should be given to the Fascist period, but not because it might offend someone. The Spanish Civil War and its aftermath should be at least briefly mentioned, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * So far we talk at length about the Spanish civil war (there just is something intriguing to it imho) but hardly mention the almost forty years of Franco's rule after that. And while I agree that we don't have to conform to fascist sensibilities, a Spanish friend of mine once tried to explain it to me like that: Franco and Hitler were both bad. But while Hitler is utterly indefensible, Franco has still some minor positive aspects to him. While I heartily disagree (he killed the Second Spanish Republic, after all) I get the point. Maybe we should try paint him not as a diabolic mastermind, but rather as the average guy who just happened to become dictator and than stayed in power more due to lack of alternatives than anything else. (heck some of the ultra-right wing Carlists even allied with the anarchists at one point to get rid of him) Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * As long as we just present facts and don't give them clearly disproportionate weight, we are within the Be fair guidelines. I'll have a look later or tomorrow, but I'm hardly the world's greatest expert on Spanish history. I'm not sure that the events in the decades after Franco won the civil war, took absolute power and killed a bunch of people are that relevant to travellers, though, for the most part. Any places to see Fascist architecture or memorials to the victims (or perpetrators) of Fascism might be of some note, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, it isn't a case of throwing a sop to 'pro-fascists'. Franco's regime could be compared in some ways to Augusto_Pinochet in Chile, who certainly oversaw terrible human rights abuses but also economic development.
 * It isn't really in the remit of WV to drill into and judge the specific rights and wrongs. Nazi Germany does not have a mixed legacy in terms of good and bad. Franco's Spain does have this mixed legacy.
 * I think the text does clearly explain the bad aspects of the regime without drilling down much. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Without arguing about Franco or Pinochet: Yes, I think it does. I edited the section — mostly copy editing with one or two few facts corrected. It seems quite good to me, though of course it remains a work in progress for anyone who can improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Imho Spain was bound to grow economically at some point in the 20th century. Not even it becoming communist (unless it would've turned into North Korea) could have kept that from happening. I think Franco being a dictator actually kind of hurt the development of tourism to an extent. The most positive thing (that doesn't include sentences like "well... he killed less people than dictator x...") I can find to say about Franco is that he died and left Spain in the not entirely incapable hands of King Juan Carlos, who - for once - made the right choice. What I was referring to with the tidbit about early Homo fossils (I deliberately left out which kind of, as there is still debate about that) was this article on WP, though I somehow forgot to include "in Europe". Good work on the copy editing, though. Also: do you know of any other famous people who were in Spain somewhere between 1936 and 1939 (the line between war-correspondent and interbrigadista is a very blurry one indeed). Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 08:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Disagree to some extent. Economic growth can happen without government interference (e.g. Hong Kong), but the absence of interference is in itself a decision that has to be made by the government (e.g. one North Korea can't make). Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * "He wasn't as bad as the North Korean Kim dynasty." OK, fine, but so what? I think the Stalinists already lost decades ago, so there's no sense in spending time praising (even faintly praising) some of the Fascists or similar dictators for not being that bad by comparison to the dictator who was responsible for more excess deaths than any other in human history, with the possibly arguable exception of Hitler, or his most rabid followers (the Kims, Pol Pot, Mao). So nothing personal here, but shall we move on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Any other historical eras of interest? I think we deal too little with Muslim Spain and its architectural remains (heck it influenced architecture and place names as far away as Italy and Nicaragua to an extent). And I think we can all agree on one thing: Franco bad. People who like Franco: bad. Other dictators: some worse, some not. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Spain is probably the the second most influenced European country by Muslim culture ( after Malta ). Should definitely have more there. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

(starting at the left again) I agree. What we now have on that era is a start but imho can still be elaborated on... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Repetition between "get in" and "get around"
Some of the information currently in "get in" should be in "get around". Other parts are mentioned twice or contradictory Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC) Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Seriously the "get in" section needs an overhaul
I just read a bit of the get in section again and quite frankly, it's a disaster. Sure, the Schengen template is where it should be and there are technically all the subheadings, but the by plane section is a strange discussion of airport architecture wrapped up by bitching about Iberia's ticket policy. The by bus section does not mention a single international line. The by train section has a lot of overlap with the get around section as well. The by boat section seems to be somewhat decent in comparison, but still... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:39, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Go ahead and make the changes you think necessary. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I did a bit on the "by plane" section, but quite frankly there are some things that would need adding that I don't really know about. I have been to Madrid-Barajas and actually spent a few hours in the city, but I have not used any other form of transport besides the Madrid Metro (which I recall as perfectly unremarkable, i.e. it worked without a hitch) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Spain "exotic"?
In light of recent edits, I think it is fair to ask how we want to formulate this. Personally I dislike the word "exotic", especially for a travel guide that tries to avoid being written with any regional bias. After all, Sauerkraut and Weißbier would probably be considered exotic in Nicaragua, just like Germans would consider Gallo Pinto and this corn beverage Nicaraguans call "chicha" to be exotic... Anybody got an idea how to better put that sentence or the whole paragraph while we're at it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I saw that edit by the anonymous contributor and agreed with replacing the word 'exotic' for the reasons that you basically state. Andrewssi2 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * We're not claiming that Spain is objectively "exotic", just that it is considered exotic within Europe. If anything, the phrasing points out the regional bias, but doesn't actually confirm whether it's true or not. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * To be quite honest, I don't like either wording. But I don't really know what we should write instead... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I would simply revert the edit. Spain is not considered exotic because of its friendly inhabitants, relaxed lifestyle, cuisine or vibrant nightlife. It's considered "exotic" because of its Arab heritage, which makes it quasi-"Oriental" to other Europeans. But I see no need to use the word at all, as it is not descriptive of anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I disagree with that estimation, though it looks like I'm outvoted. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 * The only way I would consider supporting the use of the word is if it is stated clearly that the reason people from Europe outside of Iberia consider Spain "exotic" is its Moorish heritage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Except that's not true, Ikan. Certainly, the Moorish heritage adds to Spain's perceived "exoticness", but there are many aspects of Spain which set it apart and make it seem exotic among some Europeans; its traditions (flamenco and the Spanish people's peculiar relationship with the bull being just two clichéd examples), its hot and unusually arid climate (the only deserts in Europe are Spanish), its cuisine (tapas is rather like mezze, and unusual in western Europe; rice is not usually a big part of European cuisines, but in Spain it is... again, we're only talking about the most obvious stereotypes, but as we know it's often stereotypes which stick in the minds of foreigners more than the less well-known aspects of a culture), its notoriously, and I would say unfairly-portrayed, laid-back lifestyle (the siesta, dinner being eaten as late as 10pm, rather than the 7-8pm European norm), its eccentric and avant-gardist artists and architects (Goya, Dalí, Gaudi, Picasso) and its classical music (often acoustic guitar-based rather than a strings-led full orchestra).
 * But I'm happy to go with consensus. I understand and agree with you that 'exotic' is a culturally-subjective term, and that it would be better to highlight exactly what is special about Spain (all I wrote above, plus so much more) than simply wrap it up in the umbrella term of "exotic". As you'll see, I reverted my own edit. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

 * I think the whole section could do with a rewrite. The "exotic" is not the only turn of phrase that sounds too much like a cliche in my ears. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

El Corte Inglés
is described as "not good enough for most purposes"---what is the author trying to say? Griffindd (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Bus prices
Does anyone know if the price for buses in Spain is dynamic? (like airline prices)

I'm finding even 2 hour inter-city buses are costing 15 euros, and some routes a whopping 45EU

I've also become aware that many Spaniards are getting major discounts on their long distance buses which makes me think the base rate might actually be a bit of a tourist tax. especially notable are discounts for advance bookings, group bookings and youth fares Twice I've asked about discounts at the ticket counter only to be mislead.

Does anyone have advice on this I can add? --95.16.30.236 13:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't know how the system is organized nationwide, but I know that on the L'Estartit-Girona route prices are not dynamic. As for discounts only locals can realistically get... Yeah. That is similar to what the Bahn Card or season tickets for local public transit do in effect in Germany. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * doing some digging around it seems Spanish youth benefit from a huge discount on fares, but non-Spanish people don't (maybe EU youth might)and that season passes are the norm.

can't say I'm impressed being expected to pay for the whole Spanish network Also heard more competitive European lines are moving in, apparently Flixbus has a 5 rides for 100EU pass that works in Spain and might be a good note for "get in" it I can get the details
 * As far as I know Flixbus only serves a few stations near the border. Keep in mind that Flixbus does not own more than one bus and does not pay any toll in Germany and only pays for the use of some of its stations... Also keep in mind that locals pay local taxes Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

To do: Second homes
As we now have a travel topic for second homes, and these are common in Spain, this article could have a section about purchase and ownership of vacation property in Spain. /Yvwv (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * There'll probably a few of them coming on the market thanks to Brexit... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Travel warning for Catalonia?
I've started a discussion on if we should have a travel warning for Catalonia at Talk:Catalonia. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Making sure our coverage of Spain is top-notch
It's evidently overtaken my homeland as the second-most traveled destination after France. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * unfortunately Spanish Wikivoyage is not as good or active as the number of Spanish speakers might indicate... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, but we are doing our best to improve those articles little by little. --Zerabat (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Regional Breakdown
While I think the Green Spain and Andalucia subdivisions are fine and I can live with Central Spain, I think throwing Catalonia and Valencia in together with Murcia is not a particularly inspired choice and there is little in terms of infrastructure, language, history or culture that justifies such a move. They all share a coastline, but that's about it. Valencia and Catalonia share a very similar regional language, but Murcia does not share that with them. Similarly Northern Spain combines linguistically politically and historically disparate regions that don't seem to have much in common. Given that our total number of regions for Spain is currently five and none of this level of region articles is really all that full or well written, maybe we could cut them a different way? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't know much about Spain's geography. If I was you, I'd try to get in touch with Wikiviajes (Spanish-language Wikivoyage). I think there are at least some there who can speak English. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 13:52, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I've posted a map here that is the static map used by the Spanish-language wiki for Spain. Maybe that's closer to what you're looking for. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 13:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps attaching Murcia to Andalucía would make more sense than saddling it with Valencia. Or, as in real life, perhaps Murcia should be its own region. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the following changes make sense for historical reasons: 1) Aragon as part of Eastern Spain; 2) Murcia with Anadalucia. ARR8 (User talk:ARR8 | Special:Contributions/ARR8) 17:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

 * I've found the Spanish language WV often... devoid of activity... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

 * Murcia + Andalucia would be kind of a weird Wikivoyage region—only two immediate subregions, one of which (Andalucia) is so much more important to travellers than the other. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess the number of autonomous communities in Spain (17) is a hard number for us to work with on Wikivoyage. It's a little too many for them all to be immediate subregions of the country, but when we start grouping them, we end up with regions that don't have enough subregions (Green Spain, Northern Spain, Eastern Spain, and Central Spain all fall short of the recommended 5–9). —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Germany has 16 Länder (three of which, admittedly, are city-states) which serve as the subdivision there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:29, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe we can do something similar here then. One slightly unfortunate thing about the Germany article, though, is that the individual regions (Länder) don't have their own descriptions, so it's not obvious how a reader is supposed to choose which one to click on. (The Germany article isn't unique in having this problem; I've also noticed it in Washington, D.C., Chicago, and to a lesser extent Boston.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Catalonia has tried to secede. Is there still a probability that Catalonia will be functionally independent within the next few years? If so, we should postpone the re-organization of Spanish regions until the dust has settled. /Yvwv (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Given what happened to those who peacefully tried to secede, I think it is unlikely Catalonia will achieve independence without violence. And if political violence were to reach notable levels in a member state of the EU, there'll be problems entirely different from those of the regional breakdown of Spain... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we shouldn't hold our breath. I strongly doubt Catalonia will gain independence in the next few years. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Help with Eat and Drink
Cuisine articles are for detailed information about a country's or region's cuisine, so I copied everything (except the lead section in Eat) of the rather extensive Eat and Drink sections from this article to Spanish cuisine, and rearranged it a bit.

So probably more than half could be deleted from here, but the question is what to delete and what to leave in. At least the lists of dishes and products could go, whereas we should leave some information about restaurants and bars and a short list of some of the most notable dishes (maybe similar to the dishes in the older version of Spanish cuisine). Thoughts? --Ypsilon (talk) 19:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I pretty much agree with you, and like what you've done with Spanish cuisine. What do you need help with again? :)
 * All this article really needs in 'Eat' is types of restaurants, the weird meal times, maybe a bit about etiquette and the general culture, plus a few notable products and dishes. For 'Drink', an overview of the popular or typical drinks, the drink + tapa culture, plus information about nightlife.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Well, I just figured it would be good with a second opinion. Nevertheless, as there've been no objections I'll start compressing the content in the Eat and Drink sections now. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Vox and other political parties
Thanks for your contributions to Spain, Hobbitschuster, but I'm actually not sure information about the Vox political party and political alliances is relevant to a travel guide at all. Sure, if they were in government, the need for a travel-relevant information would be present, but as it stands Vox isn't even as large as the National Rally in France, and probably not much larger than the AfD in Germany. Information about the independence referendums definitely is, so I would support keeping the updated information about the independence movement. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 18:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a big difference between F-Haine, AfD and Vox: The former two are absolutely outside the realm of "parties one talks with" - the latter forms part of regional government in Andalusia, the Community of Madrid and in many cities. That, I think, is germane in a travel guide... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * But politically Vox and AfD are quite similar, aren't they? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 18:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. With perhaps the added distinction that the AfD is a bit more coy about its Hitler sympathizing than Vox is about their Franco apologetics... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:14, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Guardia civil and politics
I agree that Franco sympathies in parts of the police might be relevant for travellers, but I also think just hinting on that (95 % of the force might still be communists, with the current wording) does little in informing on the matter. I think we instead should expand the paragraph in Respect, where we already say that Franco is a touchy issue. –LPfi (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Is there any police force on the planet where communist sympathizers amount to more than 5%? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

 * Perhaps not – but if it is non-surprising the Guardia Civil supported Franco, why do we need to tell about that?

 * The Guardia Civil having been involved in a coup attempt long ago says very little about what attitude you as a traveller should have to the police. The "tough guy image" says enough there, and we already tell about the coup in the History section (in a very long paragraph). We could also say something in Respect.

 * I know what the sentence on Guardia Civil means, but only because I have an acquaintance who told me about those times. If we need to tell leftist, anarchists, queers and similar to keep away from them and at least not show their political opinions, then we need to say that explicitly, not by telling about some historic events.

 * –LPfi (talk) 11:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Political Tone
There are lots of awfully politicised assertions made on this page that have zero relevance to folks who are traveling to Spain. Facts such as Vox winning a seat recently or that a fraction of a percent of the Guardia Civil in 1981 participated in 23-F are not at all useful to travelers to Spain. The tone of some parts of this article clearly has a political motive, indiscriminately taking jabs at or downplaying the importance of certain national institutions, traditions, and historical political movements -- all sorts of things of tremendous national importance to Spaniards, but whose criticism in this article is without relevance to travelers.

By all means, if you want to add unlimited context to any and all, or just a small subsect, of notable Spanish topics, based on your personal interests, expertise, or political leanings, then please become active on Wikipedia by editing the articles corresponding to those topics. Meanwhile, about a quarter of the content in this article should be deleted as irrelevant and because it obscures information of actual utility.

This isn't to say that all assertions that may sound remotely political must be disallowed. For example, there is mentioning of the fact that 'non-European looking' folks may be subject to additional ID checks by authorities. That line is bound to irk some readers, but it's 100% useful and exactly the kind of nuanced information certain people come to expect from travel guides.

Whether or not you agree with me, editors should nevertheless be constantly mindful of maintaining political neutrality in the content they create.--2001:8003:818E:6800:8133:BB2B:2073:D81D 10:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If you wish to defend fascism, go somewhere else. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the IP user has a point (as do User:SelfieCity and User:LPfi above, and User:ThunderingTyphoons! in the article's recent edit history). It feels like this article goes into too much detail about politics. Why does a traveller need to know this for instance? And I think most of the "Uncertain times in the third millennium" subsection could be removed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So you say we should remove from our articles on Germany and Bavaria that its police is strict and "law&order"? And why on earth is the most recent history in your opinion the least relevant? Just to please some fash IP who also raised concern trolling false equivalence on Talk:Portland? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The role of the Guardia Civil in 23-F is explained in Spain. It does not need to be repeated in Spain. It is unlikely that many of the Guardia from 1981 are still on the streets 39 years later. If there is evidence that the Guardia commonly have fascist tendencies today, it would be useful to present that rather than ancient history. Ground Zero (talk) 11:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Catalans who don't speak Castilian
In light of recent edits, where I added a more carefully worded and perhaps overly circumlocutious version of the basic message "Don't assume speaking Castilian in Catalonia will always be met with enthusiasm by locals", User:Roovinn saw fit to rewrite it in a way that made it both shorter and more aggressive in tone and finally User:ThunderingTyphoons! removing the paragraph altogether, let me here state for the record my personal experiences with that issue. First, I spent roughly two months in Girona province, perhaps the "hotbed" of Catalan independence activism and had there more than once what could only be described as a "bilingual conversation" where I would speak Castilian and my interlocutor would reply consistently in Catalan. Once I had such a conversation with three parties in total involved with the third party acting as "translator". Another anecdote... When I was in Madrid, one of my Spanish professors who is from Catalonia and considers bot Castilian and Catalan as her native tongues said that it happens quite frequently when she is in Catalonia that people "refuse to speak Spanish" and that they do it as a political statement and that I shouldn't believe everything the pro-independence side says (I am, especially with regard to Spanish politics, rather outspokenly republican and lean leftwards). Another anecdote: When I worked at an airport, we had flights coming in from Barcelona and at least once I spoke to an employee of the Spanish flagged airline based in Barcelona in Castilian only to be replied in (slightly Iberoromance-accented) English. So from those observations and testimonies I would conclude that whatever the reasons ("political statement", "not comfortable in Castilian" or even "thinks it is more polite to use English") it is certainly not uncommon for people in Catalonia to be put a bit on edge when talked to in Castilian, but they tend to - in general - not hold it against foreigners that much albeit still sometimes engaging in somewhat silly behavior... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

 * I can only relate experience as a tourist, but the only time someone has semi-rebuked me for not speaking Catalan was on the French side of the border (I said "bonjour" to some man at a castle, and he curtly corrected me with "bon dia" and something I couldn't understand). Granted, in Spanish Catalonia, I have encountered locals switching to English when addressed in Spanish, but I have never been made to feel uncomfortable for trying to speak Spanish and the switch could have easily been because my Spanish accent wasn't deemed good enough as opposed to the person being anti-Castilian. It is for this reason that I decided foreigners speaking Spanish in Catalonia wasn't a sufficiently important issue to go in the 'Respect' section of Spain.
 * But to cut to the chase, what change are you proposing to the section? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * I'd say take this edit as a basis and work from there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Okay, so based on that, how about?:

 * Virtually everyone in Spain, regardless of region, is able to speak Castilian Spanish, albeit not always as a mother tongue. In Catalonia, some Catalans prefer to not speak Spanish at all, and will reply to Spanish-speaking interlocutors in Catalan; this is usually a political statement, rather than a lack of Castilian language ability. Foreigners are given a bit more leeway, but there are still some Catalans who'd rather have a conversation in English than Spanish if those are the only options for communication.

 * It's probably best not to conflate language and politics, as they're not really the same issue, even if related. I've seen pro-Catalan independence campaign material written in Spanish ("¡Somos españoles, pero queremos la independencia!"); my current Spanish teacher is a proud Galician and galego-speaker, but deeply opposed to the various independence movements around Spain.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As someone who's been watching the dispute from recent changes but not participating in it, that looks like a reasonable compromise statement from my understanding of the situation in Catalonia. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Not to be politically offensive but surely these Catalans should know how to speak Spanish. I mean, it was a country for a few seconds but they should be able to speak either spanish or english. SHB2000 (talk) 11:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Catalan sorta-kinda-not really independence actually has a loooong history of "wait, were they actually independent during that time?" but it is besides the point. And yes, I think the compromise wording sums it up well. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * AFAIK, the main barrier to Catalan independence (aside from opposition within Catalonia) is there's no legal way for it to unilaterally declare independence; it would need to change the Spanish constitution, and to do that it would need to pass through parliament with the approval of the 16 other autonomous communities in Spain, most of which are opposed to independence because they'd lose all the juicy money Catalonia makes for them. Good luck with that!
 * Let's wait a bit to see if user:Roovinn or others would like to comment, but other than that, the wording should be good to go.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Which is why there are people in the not exactly admirable position of declaring a vote "illegal" and cheering on the police squads who literally arrest people for the crime of holding and organizing a vote... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Yeah, really sinister. If a vote has no legal weight (it didn't) and is in essence simply an opinion poll (it was), what the hell are they afraid of? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my Spanish is close to non-existent, but I will say from my visit to Barcelona that my experience was that the native Catalan speakers were happy to speak to foreigners in Spanish. The main difficulty will be in the Metro, since Metro announcements are only in Catalan. People were actually quite willing to help me in English, if they spoke English, and this is anecdotal, but I found general English proficiency to be somewhat higher in Barcelona than in Madrid or Sevilla. That said, I remember that the waiters were very happy when I asked for the bill in Catalan. The dog2 (talk) 16:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Barcelona is also - perhaps counter-intuitively - the least pro-independence part of Catalonia and the place where the most (as a share of population) monolingual Castilian (or Castilian + non-Spanish language) people live in all of Catalonia... But that's even more beside the point... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * I would say it's very intuitive. Big city, so it attracts lots of migrants from elsewhere in Spain, other parts of Europe and Latin America, nearly all of whom are far more likely to speak Spanish than Catalan. Still, Barcelona does have some traditional Catalan neighbourhoods.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Looks like we have a consensus, and everyone has had the opportunity to have their say, so I'll put in the agreed wording.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Spanish words
Mx. Granger and 173.216.247.15 disagree on whether to mention Spanish terms such as carretera,  mariscos frescos, agua del grifo, pan, queso and vino: "let's not go down the road of translating every word in the article - we have a Spanish phrasebook".

I have no strong opinion on what words are worth mentioning, but let's not have an edit war. We do include some local words in most country articles and I am not sure the phrasebook covers e.g. carretera or agua del grifo (words like those are also better introduced in context), but I agree that we don't need to translate every word.

–LPfi (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 * I agree with having a few words here and there, but I think it's better off having these ones here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 * I didn't revert agua del grifo, but rather agua by itself. I don't feel strongly about any of these though, happy to follow whatever the consensus is. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * (Sorry looked the wrong way, supposing 173... repeated the reverted edits. –LPfi (talk) 06:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC))

 * I don't mind including some words, at least when the article says to ask for "such and such", but each Spanish word only needs to be given a maximum of once, not repeated a few lines later like agua was until just now. I don't really think carretera is important to list: it doesn't appear on road signs, and you don't typically need to talk about roads with locals as a traveller in Spain.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Following further edits which reintroduced prior formatting errors and perpetuated the edit war, and which I don't believe improved the article, I have asked user:Baterjaownf to join in this discussion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Why were those revisions deleted? —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Apparently, user:Baterjaownf is a long-term vandal. See user talk:Praxidicae.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I see. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:21, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Length of Stay safe
The subsection Safety in Stay safe says "Spain is a safe country". Still Stay safe is six screenfuls for me (Niger's is one, Colombia's is three).

I don't think most travellers are willing to read these walls of text for a safe country. Could we try to find passages that are unnecessary or could be expressed with less words? Some points on driving should perhaps be moved to By car.

–LPfi (talk) 12:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Disagree. If anything, those other countries need to be expanded.
 * I do agree that some passages are still too generic and should be condensed or removed. For example, overcharging scams are a risk at restaurants everywhere. Lottery scams occur all over the world too. The more I think about it, the pickpocket warnings can be greatly condensed and limited to mentioning only Madrid and Barcelona (but not all the specific locations in those cities).
 * The part about getting attacked on the road should stay in this section, though. That is a safety risk that is relatively unique to Spain.
 * As you will notice, I have revised and condensed the material on xenophobia which I added, but that is an important part that should stay. Spain's hostility to foreigners is quite unusual, and stands in stark contrast to Latin America's welcoming and friendly attitude towards foreigners. --Coolcaesar (talk) 15:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "Unless you can pass for a local, expect an openly frosty or hostile reception from at least some people during your visit." Is this accurate advice? I spent about two months in Spain in 2016, and I don't remember any hostility or frostiness. The only "Tourist go home" I heard or saw was a piece of graffiti. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I have understood that there are such feelings in a few cities, where tourists outcrowd locals on the housing market. That's similar to the problems in Venice and has little to do with Xenophobia. –LPfi (talk) 11:33, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you're not tracking the situation on the Web, or the news media, or social media, or on Reddit or Quora, all of which are rife with reports of Spaniards' coldness and/or hostility to foreigners.
 * If you haven't seen that coverage, you need to work on media literacy skills. If you didn't sense such hostility yourself in Spain, you were either not paying attention or you can pass as a Spaniard. --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I admit the coverage on the Spanish-speaking world is not the best in the news over here, and whether people in Spain in general are warm or cold is definitely not front page stuff. Passing as Spaniard I would not say, but if one mostly spends time with local friends, one probably gets another impression than as normal tourist. I did not check internet stuff. –LPfi (talk) 15:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * One caution: Posts on social media aren't a reliable indication of anything anywhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * And news media sometimes present an exaggerated or misleading picture of a destination. Anyway, I don't think any Spaniard would think I was from their country after talking to me for thirty seconds, but I do speak fluent Spanish and basic Catalan, which might set me apart from the average tourist. As for the comparison with Latin America, to generalize wildly based on my own travels, I'd say I've found Spaniards to be warmer than Bolivians, less warm than Brazilians, and about on par with Argentinians. I think it's true that there's some resistance to tourism at least in Barcelona, but does that really belong in "Stay safe" or would it fit better in "Respect"? The "Respect" section currently says "Generally speaking, Spaniards are widely regarded as welcoming and friendly." —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spain


text:
Talk:Spanish phrasebook

Informal and formal
I think these would only make it more complicated for a new Spanish speaker. Perhaps we should just go with the formal one in the case of this phrasebook? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 13:06, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This distinction is made in most travel phrasebooks I've read, and is also made on other Wikivoyage phrasebooks, such as French. So, no, I don't agree. Part of language-learning (and, ultimately, travel) is being exposed to unfamiliar concepts.
 * And both the formal and informal are useful, even for beginners. Compare a business traveller who wants to nail a few key phrases in order to please his interlocutors in a meeting that is otherwise conducted mainly in English or with a translator, with a young backpacker who wants to make friends and date locals while (s)he is travelling.
 * ¡Feliz Navidad! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:52, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Verdad --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 16:00, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Agreed that we don't want to make this a guide to learning the language (that's why we have Spanish and Spanish) but this is a distinction that is pretty basic and I could see being very useful if you make a good friend while on the road and he uses tu/vos with you. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * True. But when you're going to order tickets for a train, bus, or make a purchase at a store, you use the formal. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 19:57, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Infobox on voseo?
The Spanish language has a - to my knowledge - rather rare phenomenon in that some dialects have their own second person singluar pronoun with its own forms, namely vos. To give an example, "you are" can be "vos sos" in e.g. Nicaragua, "tu eres" in Spain (both those would be "informal") and "usted es" in the formal case. Of course this is not even getting into plural forms, which can be be "ustedes son" in all of Latin America for both formal and informal and "vosotros sois" only in Spain in the informal case. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:49, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Yes, it should be mentioned and I think we at one point had such an infobox in the article, or mentioned it in the text. ϒψιλον  (talk ) 18:14, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * As I've learned Spanish, in this way it's actually the same as English, just that the English equivalent isn't used much nowadays: the equivalent is "thou". And, of course, it has its own verb endings, "thou art", "thou shalt", etc. rather than "you are" and "you shall". --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 22:32, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Yep, see here, and, of course, numerous Biblical texts for usage of "thou". --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 22:35, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Not quite. You is the second person plural form that used to be used as an honorific when addressing a singular person. The second person singular later fell out of use. Meanwhile "vos" is a form that is distinct (lexically and grammatically) from both the second person plural and the "regular" second person singular ("tu") form. Truth be told, there are not all that many forms outside of Chile where vos and tu differ, but those tend to be common words like "ser" ("tu eres" vs. "vos sos") and virtually all diphthongizing verbs ("vos podes" vs. "tu puedes"). Vosotros, meanwhile, while we're at biblical English, is only used in the Bible outside of Spain and its islands. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

 * I think an infobox on vos is a good idea. We will have to strike a balance between accuracy, completeness, and readability, because the situation is pretty complicated with different verb forms used in different countries, and at least two countries (Uruguay and, according to Wikipedia, Honduras) seem to be developing a three-level politeness system with vos, tú, and usted. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:16, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Yeah, you guys are right. I'm thinking more of "usted" and "tú", not "vos". --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 01:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Definitely add an infobox, particularly for vos and vosotros, which are the outliers. Are you going to do it, Hobbitschuster? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:25, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Sadly nobody seems to ever have gotten around to it... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Fue tu idea, y tú hablas un mejor español que la mayoría de nosotros. Te invito de hacerlo.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:38, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Just to add my 2 cents, it's a fact that voseo is very prominent in Argentina as well, and this is clearly noticed in the movie "The Motorcycle Diaries". Main actor Gael García Bernal, who is Mexican, is reported to have put some effort in perfecting these patterns of speech. Ibaman (talk) 23:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Would you have the time? –LPfi (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Titles
Since you speak Spanish, I'd like to ask if it would be useful to have a section on titles and modes of address. For instance, if I'm not wrong, you typically address men as señor, and women as señora. And I've heard of the term señorita, but I'm not sure if it would be considered sexist in this modern day and age. The dog2 (talk) 03:43, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * I'd recommend señor and señora, yes. Señorita is still used, and I think it's more common than English "Miss" or Chinese "小姐", but has the potential to sound sexist (at least according to this article on micromachismos). I can't think of much else to say besides that, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:28, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Don/ Doña + first name is a not uncommon form to show respect. In general, there is a tendency to express formality through register of speech, the "usted" form and (if applicable) the use of "earned" job titles (e.g. abogado, ingeniero, doctor, profesor etc.) in lieu of the name. English of course lacks most of those options and thus must make more use of the "Sir" and "Ma'am" when formality is wished for. On a side note, I think it is silly trying to make a blanket statement about Señorita, given that the "sexism" accusation is very much an urban left/liberal thing which has some time yet before it penetrates into rural and conservative areas - and much of Latin America is still very much conservative on many social issues even if one is more likely to find radicalism on economic issues than among the liberal urbanites of the Anglophone world... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:48, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * That sounds right to me. I thought of mentioning don/doña, but I think it's too advanced for a phrasebook. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Why too advanced? If it's not uncommon, it doesn't seem that hard to do - Don or Doña and the first name isn't hard to remember. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Speak of which, there was a Spanish girl interning at where I work at one point, and interestingly, she preferred to be called señorita rather than señora. She was an undergrad and from Madrid, so she's certainly not rural, but since her father is a diplomat, it is possible that she is more conservative due to coming from a noble family.

 * And while we don't have such issues with titles in English, there are most certainly differences between areas as to which terms are considered bigoted. For instance, we still use the term air steward/stewardess to refer to flight attendants in Singapore, but the term "stewardess" is considered sexist in America. The dog2 (talk) 23:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

 * We do have issues with titles, or else there wouldn't be a Ms. Magazine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

 * About don/doña: it's not uncommon but not especially common either. Used in the wrong context it would sound odd. And it's basically unnecessary – a traveller will do perfectly fine without it. I don't think I've ever called anyone don or doña except maybe after hearing someone else do so. If there's a need to show respect, go for usted, as Hobbitschuster says. (Caveat: this is the kind of thing that might vary from country to country. While I've lived in a couple of Spanish-speaking countries and traveled to others, it's possible that don/doña is more common in some of the countries I'm less familiar with.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

 * I'm going to add though, if any of you have watched Zorro, you will come across the title don. As you may know, in the show, Zorro is the secret identity of Don Diego, who is in turn the son of Don Alejandro. The dog2 (talk) 18:59, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

 * Hi! Don/Doña can only be used when you know the first name of the person you talk to; therefore, it should not be used by a tourist, as in a lot of countries could be considered uneducated or worst, not polite (at least); when I lived in Mexico and in a lot of telenovelas, doña (without name) cn have sarcastic or negative connotations and doñita (adaptation of señorita+doña) could also have sexual intentions said by a man. Señor/Señora would be more neutral (señorita is acquiring a sexist meaning in some countries, although still very used in anothers; I would use it whith women that are clearly very young, in a shop, for exemple, although using un Perdone (excuse me) to call attention would be neutral and with not possible problem whatsoever). I am a native speaker (European) and teacher of ELE (Spanish as a Foreign Language); let me know if there is something else I can help with. dpcossio (dpcossio)

 * Definitely! Look through the phrasebook and see if anything should be changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Greetings and proposals
Hi! My name is David and I am quite new in Wikivoyage. I arrived to your guide because I am a language learner and I use them as a first approach to the language; however, I also am a teacher of my language to foreigners and I would like to direct them here for a first approach to Spanish.

I would like to help to improve it, so do not hesitate to let me know of anything you thing could be changed; also, I can always ask native speaker and teachers from any other Spanish speaking country if ever this could help to add or clarify points of discussion.

I would ask you to consider some changes that could make this guide one of the start guides in English. One is about the format and presentation, the other one about contents.

Regarding the format and presentation, please check the German and Hebrew versions of this guide. Don't you think that creating a summary of contents at the beginning, like the Germans do, would make your guide clearer and navigateble? Then, in another hand, it could be also quite more visual if we added tables, like in the Hebrew version, with columns: English sentence or phrase, Spanish sentence/phrase, possible IPA, figured pronunciation in an English way. Another exemple to take into account is the Italian version.

Regarding the contents:

a) We could add recordings to the sentences; this would allow us to complement the figured English pronunciation or, even, get rid-off of it. However, if we do this, we should consider...

b) Regarding varieties of Spanish, we could think on translate every English phrase into European (Spain)/Northamerican (Mexico)/Andean (Colombia or Perú) / Plata (Argentina) / Caribbean (Cuba). Most of the time, relations won´t be needed, except for Argentinian/Uruguayan voseo (that emplies a change in conjugation to speak to a single tú), but we could get records from native speakers from the different areas, if ever it was decided to use the Hebrew format of tables. I can request colleagues from other countries or we could use Forvo to get them. Forvo is a world languages pronunciation dictionnary where we can request native speakers to read any word or sentence and then download it in a mp3 that we could insert in our guide.

c) Regarding vocabularies (food, clothes, etc), we could insert images, like it happens in the wikipedia articles for pieces of art, like for exemple this one or [|this other page.].

It will take time, but I can help a lot with the Spanish part. However, the technical part... I am quite new on it. --Dpcossio (talk) 06:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Islands east of the eastern ends of Russia coloured in red?
Unless my eyesight is worse than I originally thought it would be, why are those islands on the far east of Russia coloured in red? (it's not easily noticeable, but it's near the Bering Strait.) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

 * It seems they seem to be islands of Alaska, those west of the 180° line + the one large island of Russia?. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:54, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Language school variant
"Most language schools outside Europe generally teach Latin American Spanish." was added today. I suppose this is true in the Americas, but is it true elsewhere? In Australia? In all of Asia? –LPfi (talk) 17:30, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Latin American Spanish is the Spanish that's taught in Australia, so wrote that in my personal experience. Outside Australia, Spanish is not really taught anywhere (that is of course, excluding the Americas and Europe). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Not as a prime choice, but I'd be astonished if you can't learn Spanish in Japan, India, South Africa ... – and the Maghreb. I'd prefer saying that the Latin American variant is taught in the Americas and Australia, while insular Spanish is taught in Europe, if that's what we know. –LPfi (talk) 20:36, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

 * I think we can all agree that user:SHB2000's personal experience is limited (as is mine, and user:LPfi's, and anyone's...) We shouldn't be writing massive generalisations about the whole world based on a single person's experiences in primarily one country. "Latin American Spanish is taught in [the schools I attended in] Australia, and therefore in the rest of the world too" is not sound logic :P We either need decent evidence, or we should limit the statement as LPfi suggests.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC), edited 22:50, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll revert my edit, but I might do some more research on this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed in Uruguay that lots of people had a special interest in Australia and New Zealand, maybe because of the Southern Hemisphere connection. I wonder if something similar might contribute to the popularity of Latin American Spanish at schools in Australia. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:35, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That might be the case. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

A simple observation...
This phrasebook sure does expend a lot of excess verbiage before ever getting around to the first phrase.

To make this phrasebook REALLY useful, cut everything down to the heading "Phrase list". It's a phrase book, not a grammar encyclopedia.

Out with the rubbish! Mrkstvns (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

 * I think some understanding of a language is helpful. Most phrase books include some such description, and I think our approach on that works. If the problem is about having to scroll, perhaps something could be done about that, but scrolling is easy on desktop, there is the ToC, and the mobile view collapses the sections. The main sections are prescribed in Phrasebook template, so if you think some are redundant, we should move the discussion there (or at least add a pointer there).

 * It is of course easy to get carried away when writing the introductory sections. Are there some specific things that you think are redundant? (The section "When in doubt" really doesn't seem to belong to a phrasebook, but that's just a short subsection.) I hope you don't suggest that we skip pronunciation advice – with typical English speakers difficulty with pronouncing foreign languages, and the regularity of Spanish pronunciation, that would be a real disservice.

 * –LPfi (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

 * "When in doubt" could be deleted, but otherwise, I agree with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

 * I strongly disagree with the first comment. A good phrasebook should include an introduction to the language to help the voyager understand its structure and pronunciation if they like, and this is what Wikivoyage's phrasebooks do (well, at least the well developed ones). --Ypsilon (talk) 15:50, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Caveats and Corrects
So the good part is:

 * 1) You accurately determine the pronunciation of most letters in Spanish and explain the dialects.
 * 2) You accurately translate English phrases to Spanish ones.
 * 3) You give a good description of how Spanish orthography works

However, a few caveats:

 * 1) You provide no sources or any evidence regarding the letter K. I've never seen anyone even on internet associate the letter K that way.
 * 2) Just because a letter is more common in one language that's based on another doesn't determine whether it symbolizes a language or not.

In conclusion, there isn't much evidence to suggest that K is associated with youth culture or Basque language. Hope you understood my feedback and was able to explain it to you!

thanks! Akshatgos (talk) 06:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Gracias. Just a heads up that Wikivoyage deliberately doesn't include references: the proof of our statements is someone going to a place and experiencing it first-hand and if it's not correct, updating it here. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah I just deleted that line that says ot if that's fine with you Akshatgos (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, I just found out that this site is written 20 years back so the spelling attitudes may have changed Akshatgos (talk) 14:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your corrections and feedback. Just regarding your edit, do you have any examples of a silent K in Spanish? When would it be silent as opposed to pronounced /k/? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have an example. It's a proper name. Akshatgos (talk) 12:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, what's the name? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "Knox" in loanwords/proper names, K would be either [k] or silent before N Akshatgos (talk) 12:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Just a question
So was this phrase book written relatively a while back. Is this phrase book relatively old? Akshatgos (talk) 12:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is old, created in 2003. Here's the edit history for the last 14 years. –LPfi (talk) 13:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Things changing
So I know this phrasebook was written 20 years back in 2003. Could things have changed 20 years from now, compared to when this phrasebook was written? Uiquiuser (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Languages tend to change slowly compared to most other travel information, and of course the phrasebook has been edited many times during the past 20 years. Most translations wouldn't go out of date that quickly, but it's possible that with technological change certain phrases are less useful now than they were in 2003. If you notice any phrases that seem like they wouldn't be useful nowadays, or any major gaps, you're welcome bring them up here or edit the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, slang would have changed, but it tends also to be regional and impossible for us to cover. A second-language learner and a phrasebook should be based on conservative language, which is improbable to offend or not to be understood. What current middle-age people learnt in school much before 2003 should still be understood by anybody, but if synonyms have become more common, we might want to use those instead.
 * I note that none of Wi-Fi, computer and internet is mentioned here or in the phrasebook template. There still is a "can I use your phone". Should a "Connect" be added to the template?
 * –LPfi (talk) 11:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Could attitudes to youth culture have changed aswell? Akshatgos (talk) 14:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Like anything? Is it possible that youth culture isn't too common now? Akshatgos (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how to answer that question. Youth culture is always changing but is not usually covered in our phrasebooks.
 * To LPfi's point about a "Connect" section – I think we should. At least we should include sentences to the effect of "Is there wifi?"/"What's the wifi password?" When traveling in the past I have wished I knew how to say those in German and Italian. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it possible that youth culture also gets rarer? Akshatgos (talk) 14:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, if there's any youth slang for common items that differ from the term that middle-aged people will use, we can certainly include some of them if you are likely to encounter them. The dog2 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Sites created by a wikibot?
Hello, just a question, how common is it for any of these phrasebooks to have been created by a wikibot? I've heard, bots have taken over a large part of the internet, is it also possible that a wikibot or any bot may have created atleast one of these phrasebooks? Uiquiuser (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I doubt it. Is there anything in any of them that seems to tip off that possibility to you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:27, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spanish phrasebook


text:
Talk:Sparkbrook

As this is an " inner-city area in Birmingham about" should it be a district of Birmingham (England)? (WT-en) Majnoona 12:38, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Should this be merged with Birmingham (England)? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 11:04, 21 December 2009 (EST)

title: Talk:Sparkbrook


text:
Talk:Spas

The problem with this name is that there's also a famous Spa (the origin of the word, in fact) in Germany. How about "Spas", in line with other plurals like Hot springs? "Spa (travel topic)"? (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:07, 3 July 2006 (EDT)
 * I agree... (WT-en) Majnoona 00:04, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
 * Great idea...thanks. (WT-en) Johnycanal  21:07, 3 July 2006 (PST)
 * Page moved to "Spas" and links updated. (WT-en) Johnycanal 21:10, 3 July 2006 (PST)

No individual spas
To prevent spam and ballooning to an unmanageable size, I'd like to suggest that we don't list any individual spas here, just places famous for it. Opinions? (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:38, 9 July 2006 (EDT)
 * I was thinking the same thing. More specifically, I'd image that the destinations section would list some of the areas of the world with spas and reference some of the area's nuances such as specialties, customs, unique ingredients, price range, etc.(WT-en) Johnycanal 9:39 9 July 2006 (PST)
 * One other thought, individual spa listings are most suitable for the location pages. (WT-en) Johnycanal 9:44 9 July 2006 (PST)

But in Turkey the locations are often very small towns or the developed geothermal spa (kaplıcı) is just on its own in the countryside. For example I don't want to create an article for Hamamözü as there is nothing worth doing in the tiny town except staying at the spa. I want to add more "kaplıcı" so where should I put them please? They will mainly be in Amasya province but not in Amasya town so should I put them under "Amasya" "Surrounding area" or "day trips" as I see someone has done? Or maybe "Central Karadeniz" as one is in Çorum?
 * I suggest putting them in the Amasya section, and mentioning Amasya in this here page. Ibaman (talk) 13:37, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks - there was already one in Amasya Day Trips so I moved it there.

This article and "Spa towns"
Overlap and neither is particularly comprehensive. Should they be merged? Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. /Yvwv (talk) 00:15, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spas


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Talk:Spello

I begin this article because it is a medival city in Umbria and I would like to visit Spello. (WT-en) Pz-engl 12:55, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Now this article has many informations. It is not short. (WT-en) Pz-engl 6 March 2008 (EDT)

="Long distance trains from Florence and Rome sometimes stop in Spello (check schedules)."=

I think this is wrong. Spello is not betreen Florence and Rome. (WT-en) Pz-engl 6 March 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Spello


text:
Talk:Spetses

It may still need two or three more hotels, but in view of the fulness of the other information I think the article qualifies as usable. I may add some hotels later. (WT-en) Sailsetter 19:29, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

 * Yes, it does qualify...good call (and good work)! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:36, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

Studios Amore
I deleted the listing for Studios Amore because the link was dead and any other sites I could find on the net were also dead links, so maybe it isn't in business any more. If anyone knows it is and wants to add it back, please provide a current link if there is one. (WT-en) Sailsetter 15:53, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Ferry from Piraeus
I deleted the part about the ferry to Spetses from Piraeus because this line does not exist since 2008.

title: Talk:Spetses


text:
Talk:Spišská Nová Ves

"Two of the mentioned IC trains depart from Vienna." I believe that this is unfortunately no longer true, at least I was not able to find this train. I didnt change it, because maybe someone can clarify who is better knowledgable on this topic. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 81.217.135.202 (talk • contribs)

title: Talk:Spišská Nová Ves


text:
Talk:Spiennes

Not sure quite where to put this link however Worldheritagesite.org has some useful information from other people who have visited this site which can be at times be very difficult to get to. --(WT-en) Meltwaterfalls 12:08, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Spiennes


text:
Talk:Split

Photos
If anyone wants to add Split photos, feel free to upload any of mine. Get them here.

Korcula Ferry Link
I have removed the ferry company link for Korcula because main links should be to Wikivoyage destinations. If you want to add a link to the company running this route, it should be added separately. -- (WT-en) DanielC 07:59, 24 March 2006 (EST)

Sorry forgot to do CTRL + F5 :)

By boat-external links

 * Split excursions http://www.splitexcursions.com

Split excursion seems to be a booking agency looking after all sorts of tours as well as travel and accom. I have removed it from the article as it appears to breach WT guidelines on booking agencies. re Project:External links -- "Avoid linking to secondary sources - for example, avoid links to: Hotel or travel booking services or aggregators"

 * Split Tours http://www.splittours.hr

I have removed it from the article as it appears to breach WT guidelines on booking agencies. re Project:External links -- "Avoid linking to secondary sources - for example, avoid links to: Hotel or travel booking services or aggregators"

The ferries all seem to be comprehensively listed with Adria Lines http://www.adrialines.com/trajekti/split.html so I have left that in there.

 * Split Rent Agency Taxi boat http://www.split-rent.com/en/sea-transfers-taxi-boat.html Fast transfer to desired locations from Split airport to Split and surrounding islands.

Seems to be as stated so I have left it in the article.

 * Sen Marina

http://www.sem-marina.hr/ Dead link so removed URL only, listing still in article -- (WT-en) felix 12:13, 3 March 2011 (EST)

By Plane
Which airlines service Split? Easyjet, Adria, CroatiaAir. Who else? Tks.

Is it a tour?
These pub crawls appear to be a tour. Perhaps it needs discussing if it is to be listed in the article.Also the contact details are an issue, and Facebook URLs are not permitted in the articles.-- (WT-en) felix 12:29, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

 * Fantastic pub crawl, long list of free drinks during the happy hour, cocktails included. Free shots in every bar and free entrance to a nightclub

 * Pretty decent pub crawl, power hour and entrance into some nice clubs. 120kn

title: Talk:Split