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Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/October 2008

Archive for Project:Votes for deletion acted on in October 2008. If you can't find the chronicle that interests you here, try Project:Votes for deletion/September 2008 or Project:Votes for deletion/November 2008 for things that may have happened earlier or later, respectively.

Big wok restaurant birmingham
Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. non-article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 09:24, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. Just added vfd tag to page :) (WT-en) Nrms 09:26, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete after moving useful data to Birmingham -- ¬¬¬¬

Kuala Perlis
Outcome: Kept. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:17, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. non-article. (Unless someone wants to make it into a proper article) (WT-en) Nrms 04:33, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep. It's a real place, and I've outlined it. (WT-en) Jpatokal 14:20, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep. (WT-en) Pashley 15:18, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Campervans in australia
Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:21, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. I see no reason why this info can't be in Australia or Australia. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:04, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. This page is just an advertisement, for Spaceships Campervans.  The same information has been splattered all over the site by the same author, in many city articles, and in three new articles.  There is NO campervan information in this article, only information about one campervan company and their vehicles.  I would say merge if there was some information to actually merge. --(WT-en) Inas 22:11, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. Agree, not a valid article in itself. (WT-en) Jtesla16 22:16, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. If there's any info worth saving (I don't know Oz so cannot tell), move it into Driving in Australia. (WT-en) Pashley 06:26, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * No Delete. What if we remove the external link. The other info is worth having as there are a lot of companies for campervan rentals though several alternatives; plus we add a link to Driving in Australia.
 * Merge I think it should be merged with Buying_or_renting_a_car_in_Australia

All images uploaded by Omid Hatami

 * Image:Alisadr-cave.jpg – Appears to be a copyright violation, from here – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:36, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

I haven't checked all of the rest, but at a glance I'm positive they aren't all taken by the same person, and with multiple cameras – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:44, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Image:Hafez.jpg - where is the source of this image?
 * Image:Moschee-isfahan.jpg - this one is ok here, but you must add the author and license info or it will be deleted
 * Image:Chehel Sotoon.jpg - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Esfahan armenian Barry Kent.JPG - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Ali-qapu-rooz.jpg - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Khajoo-Bridge.JPG - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Abbasi Hotel.jpg - this one is ok here, but you must add the author and license info or it will be deleted
 * Image:Milad Tower.jpg - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Tehran Metro.jpg - GFDL only, not compatible here
 * Image:Tehran from Highway.jpg - you got this image from Flickr, but most images on Flickr are NOT compatible here... it says "all rights reserved", only images that say "CC-by-SA" and that don't say "NC" or "non-commercial" are compatible with Wikivoyage
 * Image:Dizin05.jpg - this one is ok here, but you must add the author and license info or it will be deleted
 * Image:UTEH gates.jpg - this one is ok here, but you must add the author and license info or it will be deleted
 * Image:Golestan-takht2.jpg - this one is ok here, but you must add the author and license info or it will be deleted

 * Delete all – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:44, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Ok Omid, I looked at each image and commented above, you must do the rest of the work though, or these will be deleted – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 12:14, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted most – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 15:05, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Apalachicola_National_Forest
Only content is copied straight from wikipedia. Too fine grained, corrected information can fit as a single listing in Florida Panhandle. (WT-en) Jtesla16 20:20, 8 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep - Statement above is ridiculous. The two pages are not even closely related: 18,139 bytes on Wikivoyage vs. 2,871 bytes on Wikipedia? All content is either Public Domain or my own creation. Perhaps you have some other agenda? Someone could just as easily claim that Disneyworld and Everglades National Forest are copied from Wikipedia. (WT-en) gamweb 02:47, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep — valid article, I don't see any copyvios. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:56, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:48, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Retirement in Thailand
Deciding where to spend your non-travelling retirement is not a travel topic.

 * Delete -- (WT-en) Colin 23:00, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Unsure. If we're going to do an article on retirement (and I'm not sure if that's within the scope of Wikivoyage) then it should be a general article topic, and not specific to Thailand.  Additionally, this article duplicates a significant amount of information from the Thailand article that isn't retirement-specific (currency, weather, etc).  At a minimum it should be cleaned-up to be retirement-specific, and if the subject is deemed to be outside of Wikivoyage's scope then it should be removed.  Let's give it some time and see what happens. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:28, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep Even though its not a 100% travel topic but it still includes and relate to travelling to other country for specific purpose which is itself considered as a travel topic.

Well whichever country a person would like to live after retirement is his/her choice. But while choosing a country, he/she needs to consider different information, facts and destinations of the country. So well, one of the seventh most famous destination of the world for retirement is Nongkhai, Thailand, which is of course not same as other countries. So, giving information about Retirement in Thailand is providing all the information a person would need to know while choosing Thailand or while travelling to Thailand.

Whereas some facts about the country (currency, weather, etc.) i agree to keep it on Thailand page rather than putting in this article. --(WT-en) Borndistinction 05:27, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Retirement is not travel.  (WT-en) LtPowers 11:40, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Let me expound a bit. Yes, retirement is a reason for travel.  However, we don't usually include separate articles on various reasons for traveling.  As a travel guide, we are largely neutral on the subject of why someone is traveling.  To make matters worse, the entire second half of the article in question is not specific to retirement at all.  Every bit of that information is either redundant to the Thailand article, or should be merged there.  (WT-en) LtPowers 13:43, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. (WT-en) LtPowers puts it perfectly. (WT-en) Tarr3n 12:21, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep Absolutely, retirement abroad doesn't concern travel. Well, agreed. By the way, were you guys former comical-contestants on American Idol? (WT-en) Thai-blogs
 * The point, my friend, is that the travel one takes while retired is essentially no different from the travel one takes at other times in one's life -- thus our standard travel guides work just fine for retired people. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:17, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * I'm not sure this article should be kept. However, a general article on Retiring abroad would be valid for much the same reasons that Working abroad and Teaching English are. Thailand would get a prominent place in any such article. (WT-en) Pashley 18:30, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Not travel relevant – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:51, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Why on Earth would you consider it "Not travel relevant"? Retiring abroad is one way to travel, and a major reason to retire abroad — whether Thailand or Costa Rica or wherever — is to use it as a base for further travel. This is not outside our scope. Wikivoyage is a travel guide, not just a tourist guide. Articles like War zone safety or Teaching English are valuable. This may have the wrong scope — perhaps we just need a general Retiring abroad article — and may need other work. but I'd say it is obviously relevant. (WT-en) Pashley 18:44, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * "Retiring abroad" is not "one way to travel". "Cruise ship" is one way to travel.  "Segway" is one way to travel.  "Retiring abroad" is a reason to travel, and we don't generally have articles on reasons to travel.  We don't have articles on "Visiting family in Thailand," "Getting away from work in Thailand," or "Business travel to Thailand", and "Retirement in Thailand" is on par with those topics.  (WT-en) LtPowers 19:42, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete, but with caveats. I'm not sure we should rule out retiring abroad as a topic on Wikivoyage, but I do think we should delete this article. I would tend to consider retiring abroad to not be travel, but then again, that might be too conservative a position—you could consider retiring abroad the "final travel" (although that seems morbid now that I've written it). The reasons for a retirement abroad are broader than the desire to travel, but I still think travel is playing a role in the decision; one might move to Panama just to cut costs, but my hunch is that's just a perk for an adventurous older couple looking to explore the region and to have monkeys in the back yard and a tropical beach out front. I will suggest we delete this article, since it comes across as a tout piece for retiring in Thailand, and duplicates content in a way that ignores our site's basic organizing logic. So to be clear, I lean in favor of a general article on retiring abroad (if someone were to write it!), but not this article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:21, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Lots of people like to explore and have monkeys and beaches -- what makes retirement significantly different than other reasons for travel? (WT-en) LtPowers 08:42, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

 * First off, like existing articles Working abroad and Teaching English, it is long-term. That puts a whole different slant on things than short-term travel. For whatever it is worth, I've done both of the ones I mention, and the classic backpacker Istanbul to New Delhi over land, and will probably retire abroad too. I am not much interested in writing for tourists and business travellers; to me, writing for the long-term travellers is far more interesting. Of course that does not go for all writers, but it is a point of view that deserves consideration.

 * Second, retirees have specific concerns. They are generally older, so health care is an issue. They are often on a fixed income. They may want to choose a place that has good transport links so they can visit home or have friends and family visit, and/or a place with links that let them explore the region; e.g. Thailand or Singapore have visa services and flights that would make exploring South East Asia fairly easy. Because they are making a long-term commitment to a place — moving all their worldly goods, leasing or buying a place, learning the language, ... — they may be more concerned about political stability and crime rates than a shorter-term visitor.

 * Third. retirees need different visas. Some countries (Thailand and Sri Lanka at least) offer visas specifically for retirement. Can one retire in a country that doesn't? How, short of making a large investment in a business or marrying a local?

 * Fourth, they generally use different services and often go to different areas. A tourist stays in a hotel; a retiree buys or rents a house or apartment. A tourist or businessman takes taxis or rents a car; a budget tourist may struggle with local busses. A retiree may buy a car or learn the bus routes. More generally, there are lots of "nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there" places; retirees want something else.

 * I'd say this article is worth keeping, with some cleanup. A more general article on Retiring abroad would be a really good idea. If this article is deleted, any worthwhile bits should be moved there. (WT-en) Pashley 16:48, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Absolutely Keep The article is packed with information and well written. Why delete such a gem?  Also, from the comments above it seems that many people have lots of misconceptions about "retirement travel".  Fact is, today there's a large class of people who are retiring younger, and with the means to afford international travel and even one or more residences abroad.  "Retirement travel" does not mean that a retired persons simply moves to another land never to be heard from again.  Rather, lots of people split their time between two or even three countries, sometimes moving with the seasons, other times changing locales to suit their personal, family or medical needs.  Essentially, a lot of overseas retirees live a life that combines elements of the expat experience with the tourist experience.  It's a huge group -- and in one that in fact includes more than a few Wikivoyage contributors.  Snub them at our own peril. (WT-en) SONORAMA 11:36, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Retirement travel, IMO, is a completely valid travel topic and deserves an article, for exactly the reasons that SONORAMA points out.  But retirement in Thailand simply isn't the same thing.  Keeping this one sets us on one of those slippery slopes we've been warned about. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:28, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep, Sonorama gives good reasons. (WT-en) Pashley 09:52, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. Although a good article and thought, it would be better for AARP.(WT-en) 2old 09:59, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep with strict focus It's a definite travel topic but currently the article is very general and e.g. the list of airports is redundant with the city articles. So it should focus on specifics for elderly traveller who would like to stay long-term in Thailand. (WT-en) Jc8136 10:04, 24 September 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:19, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Medical Tourism in Thailand

 * Merge into Medical tourism and Thailand. theres some really good info

 * Delete. For the reasons given above for Medical tourism, and because it is unnecessarily specific to Thailand.  Oh, and it's a tout piece, but that could be fixed. -- (WT-en) Colin 03:07, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep. I do not agree to delete Medical tourism article and of course Medical Tourism in Thailand too as i see many other types of tourism related articles posted on wikivoyage such as Spas, Golf, Scuba diving. Even these are the reasons for travelling but not the way of travelling. And these even have articles specific to countries on wikivoyage also. For e.g. Scuba diving in Asia, Scuba diving in Australia, Golf in Greater China, Golf in Australia, Golf in England. Even those are kept.

These articles provide information as to guide travellers looking for destinations and their specialization in order to help travellers choose the country to visit for specific purpose. And medical tourism, golf, spas, diving are very popular ones that people specially travel for now-a-days to enjoy such activities. So i think these are few of the most important articles that people would consider before travelling as wikivoyage is the website which guides travellers for travelling at different destinations with any reason of traveller's choice. Wikivoyage aims to be a guide, isn't it so? So i strongly disagree to let them be deleted. --(WT-en) Borndistinction 04:32, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. (WT-en) OldPine 07:07, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep The article has some good references to medical associations and clinics. The text is indeed a little too positive, almost as if it were copied from a brochure.  However this can be improved and more balanced information introduced rather than deleting.  And yes, lots of people do go to travel abroad for medical reasons -- it is a very legitimate travel topic. (WT-en) SONORAMA 11:01, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Per Colin's reasoning, definitely agree – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 01:52, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep As mentioned above, how justifiable would it be to have articles on other reasons to travel in specific countries such as Golf in Australia, but not one on Medical in Thailand. In fact, Med in Thailand is huge in comparison to say Golf in China and the stats in the article prove it. (WT-en) Thai-blogs

 * Keep I agree with User:(WT-en) Borndistinction as of course wikivoyage aims to be a guide, this article is very informative and useful to those choosing a destination for Medical Tourism. The article contains all that an individual would like to consider before travelling to the country for his/her treatment.

 * Keep. It is a travel related article whose concept does match today’s requirements. People nowadays look more for this type of articles because they need a variety of information when they research. As wikivoyage is a very popular travel guide getting the best travel website award by WEBBY AWARDS for the year 2007 [], people may consider this web too. So I agree for keeping this article. (WT-en) Barracuda 12:51, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Not sure. If it can be merged into the more general Medical tourism article (which should be kept!), then I'd say it should be. I do not know how practical that is, though. If it is not, then keep. (WT-en) Pashley 19:09, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Merge into Medical tourism and Thailand. There's some good information here which it would be a shame to lose, and as I commented above, I agree that Medical tourism is a valid topic.(WT-en) Tarr3n 08:26, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * If there's anything worthwhile merging, merge as above, else delete. (WT-en) JYolkowski 21:55, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. I would prefer to see this in User:Borndistinction's userspace until we figure out how to deal with Medical Tourism. Moreover, as others have said, there are significant touting problems and haphazard formatting preventing this article from appearing legit. And of course, if content can be incorporated into the article above, do that. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:18, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:29, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Chang

 * Merge. Not really a travel article - it's more an encyclopedic page. Perhaps more suitable as an item on Tuensang (WT-en) Nrms 08:14, 23 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah, just delete. The content is so scattered, and in such fractured English, that it's not really suitable for merging. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:04, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:10, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Spas in Thailand
I see nothing in this piece that suggests Spas are any different in Thailand versus anywhere else on the planet. So spas should just be listed in individual articles normally.

 * Delete -- (WT-en) Colin 23:00, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep --Sorry Colin, but you are wrong. The most significant difference between spas in Thailand and spas in other parts of the world is that Thai spas emphasize Thai massage. Thai massage is hardly available in most spas in The US, or if it is, it has to be booked in advance. Very very few spas in The US bind spa treatment with Buddhism, unlike Thailand. I think this article has stated quite clearly these major differences. .--(WT-en) Thai-blogs

 * Keep Every country has different cities and provinces specialized in certain different things... am i right? Thailand is also one of them as it specializes in Spas. In this article (as mentioned for Diving in Thailand above) has content specific to the country at which the country is popular for. That doesn't mean that if there are 100 types of spas around the world and Thailand would be specialized in all. So, this article has brought only those spas which are popular in Thailand but not all types.

Moreover, the spa destinations, spa packages, spa programs, Thai spa cuisine provided in this article are all specific to Thailand which the country specializes at. So of course it is not the same as any other country.--(WT-en) Borndistinction 04:27, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * This one needs a lot of work if it stays. See Don't tout and Project:Goals_and_non-goals. Get rid of the touting and the attempt to be a web directory and there might not be much left. That said, I think it is just a "Really bad article" as described in Project:Deletion_policy, and policy is to fix those, not delete them. Anyone want to do the work of fixing it? (WT-en) Pashley 20:01, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete - I have to agree with Colin, Spas should be listed in individual articles. If they are a specific reason to visit the country then surely a section on the Country page is enough. (WT-en) Tarr3n 12:23, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep I have to agree with the great brains of Tarr3n that there certainly ought to be categories listed in individual categories with a specific reason to visit the country, thus guaranteeing a certain section on the country page. "If they are" (if there are?) countries offering something different oustide of The US, then they out to be deleted, as, who knows? Having a massage elsewhere may be dangerous for one's health. -- Wikivoyage = Double Standards? (WT-en) Thai-blogs
 * I don't want to get into a slanging match but I do resent the suggestion that I might be anti Thailand, or (worse?) pro-USA. I've never been to North America and it's not high on my list of places I'd like to visit (though given the current exchange rates between Sterling/Euro against Sterling/Dollar it's starting to look more attractive!). If this vfd had been for spas in USA, Spas in Wales or Spas in Chad I would have given exactly the same opinion. (WT-en) Tarr3n 04:39, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

 * This one needs a lot of work if it stays. See Don't tout and Project:Goals_and_non-goals. Get rid of the touting and the attempt to be a web directory and there might not be much left. That said, I think it is just a "Really bad article" as described in Project:Deletion_policy, and policy is to fix those, not delete them. Anyone want to do the work of fixing it? (WT-en) Pashley 20:04, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. We prefer to keep information in the actual guide articles, rather than stripping them out into travel topics.... that only becomes necessary when there's an exceptionally large amount of info to write about them that can't fit in the Thailand article. There's plenty of room there to briefly discuss what sets Thai massages apart from those in other countries, etc. Individual spas should only be listed in the city that they are located in. Definitely delete and merge relevant info into the Thailand article – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:48, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete, I'm not sure that this is a field of pursuit in the same way that, say, diving is. Does anyone travel to Thailand for the primary purpose of going to spas there?  (WT-en) JYolkowski 21:55, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep Spa travel is a huge market including its own magazines, etc. Yes, there is a large class of people who like to travel the world to pampered at various spas.  Agreed this might not be everyone's ideal form of travel - but it's definetly an article we shoud keep.  If I was looking for a spa or legitimate massage in Thailand, for instance, it would be very nice to have info about them all in one article. (WT-en) SONORAMA 11:35, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep. Spas are a travel topic comparable to hot springs, rock climbing, and so on.  The only problem with this article is that compared to most of what we have here, it's unbelievably, overpoweringly, obtrusively comprehensive -- and given our goals, that's not a bad thing.  (It could use some de-touting and tightening, but that's a different story than deletion.)  I'd like to see it renamed to something like " Spas/Thailand " so that it's clearly a descendant node from the main Spas article, but no need to delete it.  And yes, JYolkowski, spas are a big attraction in Thailand -- for better or for worse. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:49, 4 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Question – How would this be any different than stripping hotels out into a "Hotels in Thailand" travel topic? I fail to see how it's necessary to list them in their own article rather than listing Phuket's spas in the Phuket article. And, if we do agree that the individual listings should be in the individual guides, then is there really so much to say about Thailand's spas that can't be condensed into 2-3 paragraphs in the Thailand article? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 19:45, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * If there is a difference, it's probably that "hotel" connotes practically the same thing anywhere in the world (a place to sleep, in a bed or something close, with a roof or equivalent over your head, and with a hotelier who runs the place and provides services), while "spa in Thailand" may -- or may not -- describe something qualitatively different from spas elsewhere in the world. In my opinion the first third of this article does provide information on what is distinctively Thai about Thai spas, arguing that the article's information justifies a keep. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 17:27, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete, per Cacahuate's comment. If Thailand's spas are unique enough to merit some discussion, that can be done in the Thailand article under "Do." And we don't want to maintain two lists of spas, one in this article, and one in each destination article. When/if deleting, we should sweep out these listings into the city articles.  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:09, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Well, I was again was about to try and sort this mess out, but am hanging my head in defeat yet again. This may look like a lot of good info that we don't want to lose, but in fact it's just a long yellow-pages list, with no reviews or useful info – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 14:50, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Following the guilty-until-proven-innocent principle, I'm about to delete this, but there is a particularly severe lack of consensus on this one. If nothing occurs to build a consensus for keeping it in the next 24 hours -- and simply restating positions already stated, without any changes, doesn't qualify -- it's gone.  Going once, going twice... -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:15, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete/Merge OK, so a bit late on this one! Reading the Goals/Non-Goals, most of this page is a Yellow Pages/Web Directory and possibly Encyclopedic in places. However, I do think there are some bits of text at the start that perhaps could be merged into the Understand section of the Thailand page, and I'm sure the list could be merged into local entires as necessary. (WT-en) Nrms 09:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:09, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Tea_bagans

 * Delete Empty page. Non-travel text was added and then removed by an IP address. (WT-en) Nrms 05:57, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Speedied. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:39, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Bangkok/www.hqhostel.com

 * Delete Ads, not an article. -- (WT-en) Tatata7 05:45, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Speedy Deleted --(WT-en) Nick 06:34, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Southeast_Asia_-_Travel_planner
Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete No content added. 2nd page created by same user with a capitalised Planner. (WT-en) Nrms 08:42, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Southeast_Asia_-_Travel_Planner
Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete Content is a link/ad for a 3rd party planner. Will move to user's page as per policy? (WT-en) Nrms 08:46, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * No, just delete. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:12, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

User:200.24.126.170

 * Delete Only contains adult links. (WT-en) Nrms 10:22, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Various Goa related articles
I moved all the content into Goa article (except Government organisations in Goa). So it's in the right sections now, but very messy - hopefully someone will come and clean it up (WT-en) Sertmann 22:52, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Public holidays in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Museums, art centers in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Scuba diving in Goa - Speedy deleted.
 * Consulates and High Commissions in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Goa's links with Portugal - Speedy deleted
 * Government organisations in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Emergency services in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Money conversion in Goa - Speedy deleted
 * Finding your way around in Goa - Speedy deleted

Adding the following by the same page creator:
 * These important points when you are visiting Goa - Speedy deleted.
 * Public holidays - Speedy deleted
 * Museums, art centers - Speedy deleted
 * Tips on opting for an ISP, internet service provider, for longer-stays - Speedy deleted.

--(WT-en) Nick 05:22, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Image:Bbsquare.jpg
Copyright violation --(WT-en) Nick 01:16, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete (WT-en) Texugo 02:52, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:42, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Xcaret

 * Delete, or merge into Cancun. An attraction rather than a destination. We had another of these Mexican park/resorts a while back. What did we do with it? (WT-en) Pashley 01:31, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete It is a beutiful spot, but does not meet the somewhere to sleep criteria. It is also covered in Mayan Riviera, as it should be. (WT-en) 2old 11:01, 26 September 2008 (EDT) Change mine to redirect as Pashley so wisely suggests. 13:25, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

 * So redirect to Mayan Riviera? (WT-en) Pashley 06:54, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Redirected. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:57, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Www.rs2-accounts.com
Speedy deleted -- (WT-en) Colin 17:36, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete Clearly not travel-related. Can we speedy? (WT-en) Nrms 04:51, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well I want to say delete, but why don't we let this chap edit some first and see if he will ACTUALLY contribute to anything. Really it's just the UP from what I know, and that you can really talk about whatever you like (as long as it's appropriate) although it doenst seem like they will really contribute.  But why not give the person a chance to contribute?  Keep smiling, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 16:00, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete Ed, it's not a user page
 * oK, Delete! ¡Bien Días de los Muertes! (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 17:23, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Runescape_gold
Speedy deleted -- (WT-en) Colin 17:36, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete Clearly not travel-related. Can we speedy? (WT-en) Nrms 04:53, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Please delete! Happy Day of the Dead, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 17:25, 31 October 2008 (EDT)!!!!

Runescape_accounts
Speedy deleted -- (WT-en) Colin 17:36, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete Clearly not travel-related. Can we speedy? (WT-en) Nrms 04:54, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Nicholas Pryce
Non travel related article (WT-en) Sertmann 12:14, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedy deleted

Jay Clark
Vandalism (WT-en) Sertmann 12:14, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedy deleted

Www.bybloshotelcostarica.com
Spam (WT-en) Sertmann 16:50, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedy deleted

Www.makanda.com
Spam by same user (WT-en) Sertmann 16:53, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedy deleted

Image:848 Oxford Valley Mall.jpg
Copyrighted image from the mall's website. I would have speedied it but have no buttons due to the silly log-in problem and typing the delete command in the URL field doesn't seem to work for images.
 * Delete - (WT-en) Texugo 02:42, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied. You can still hit the "delete all revisions" link on the image page beneath the image. Not, of course, that this should be necessary... --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:20, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Carpooling
Spam (WT-en) Sertmann 12:08, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Liveaboards
Spam (WT-en) Sertmann 12:08, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:42, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Haggis adventures
Not a destination, and hardly a travel topic... ad for a tour group. (WT-en) Sertmann 09:19, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete Agree with Sertmann. Only other possibility is to educate the user to add it to their Talk page? (WT-en) Nrms 09:21, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Did someone Speedy this then? (WT-en) Nrms 16:23, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:07, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

Hello

 * Delete Not a travel article.

Outcome: Speedied - Obviously just someone toying around. (WT-en) Texugo 07:52, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Image:Lincoln town car.jpg
Uses an image that looks to be copyright and nonetheless does not contribute anything to the page, this isn't Caripedia. ¡Bien Días de los Muertes!, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 18:33, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied

Korumburra
Link spamming (WT-en) Sertmann 04:34, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

 * It's a real destination, so we should probably keep it, with the addition of a standard small city template and a link from its containing region. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

 * I say speedy delete it. We don't need that spam even if it's hidden away in the history.  Recreate as an outline if you like.  (WT-en) LtPowers 13:28, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Keep. This seems clear; as Peter points out, it's definitely a real place.  Many other destination articles have started out as virtual garbage cans but been turned into something useful; in fact, that's what we'd like to see happen. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:16, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep. Its a valid destination.  If we deleted every article with some spam in the history, we wouldn't have much of wikivoyage left.  --(WT-en) Inas 21:30, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept and outlined, you live you learn (WT-en) Sertmann 11:03, 8 November 2008 (EST)

User:(WT-en) Mrjmcneil
This is becomming a Spam magnet, 9 removals so far, so I suggest deleting the user page until the user put's something there himself. (WT-en) Sertmann 17:03, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

 * I speedied it (again). Since it's a vandal created page, rather than a user-created page, I think it's appropriate to delete on sight. That won't stop the never ending spam, though, but I think several administrators have this page watchlisted. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:11, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Speedied by (WT-en) Peter, and later removed spamming content from recreated page.

Kuata
Page created as part of a linkspam attack (WT-en) Sertmann 19:36, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. That guy is just spamming the system...(WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 19:44, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep. Seems to be a real destination in the Yasawa Islands archipelago, Fiji. Needs an outline etc. (WT-en) Tarr3n 10:26, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep Fixed it (WT-en) Sertmann 17:27, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept and outlined. (WT-en) Sertmann 11:10, 8 November 2008 (EST)

East chicago
I think the districts of Chicago are already covered pretty well. I wouldn't know what to redirect this to. (WT-en) Texugo 04:20, 8 November 2008 (EST)
 * Redirect to Chicago. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:58, 8 November 2008 (EST)

 * Redirect .  Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee  talk 11:01, 8 November 2008 (EST).

Outcome: Speedy redirected to the city of East Chicago, Indiana (It's a suburb). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:14, 9 November 2008 (EST)

HK mrt to zhu hai
Looks like a mistake, in any case it was irrelevant as an article (WT-en) Sertmann 13:41, 25 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Redirected this one to Hong Kong, but i'm still up for a deletion to reduce clutter --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:51, 13 November 2008 (EST)

 * Delete - Not a likely search term, no point in redirecting it. (WT-en) Texugo 07:19, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:37, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Tournaldo

 * Delete Not a travel article - more a personal tout (WT-en) Nrms 07:40, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. Should be a user page but as this is the only contribution from that IP that doesn't seem relevant. (WT-en) Tarr3n 10:11, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Uhmm, delete!!!! Keep smiling, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 16:05, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:42, 18 November 2008 (EST)

Bus tours
I don't see this ever turning into a usable (and/or relevant) article, maybe merge into Oz and NZ, but I don't really see any use for it there either... (WT-en) Sertmann 20:38, 21 October 2008 (EDT).

 * It could be improved, but I reckon IT IS usable. The site is called wikiTRAVEL, and bus tours are related to TRAVEL. Could you please leave an argument on you petition? (WT-en) James Throwl

 * Sure, maybe i was a bit rushed and rude, in the nomination text, sorry! As is the case with e.g. train travel, but unlike air travel. It's my opinion that Bus travel is very specific to the country/region where it takes place - and it's my experience from traveling (and I have traveled a lot) that there are very few common denominators to bus traveling around the world. So i feel it's much better left to the country or region page, than as a travel topic. But if you really feel you can make an article like this work, and actually extend it beyond Oz and Nz, I have no objections to withdrawing the nomination. (WT-en) Sertmann 21:32, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Walking is also related to travel, but I don't see a point in writing an article about it. And as it stands, I'm not even sure what the article is about: riding buses in general? tour buses? I can't think of a reason to have bus information separate from destination articles (as a general rule all our travel information should be accessible via the Project:Geographical hierarchy). Why do you think this is necessary? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:46, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

 * Delete. Real information on this topic is region-specific. -- (WT-en) Colin 17:38, 31 October 2008 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:47, 18 November 2008 (EST)


text:
Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/October 2009

Archive for Project:Votes for deletion acted on in October 2009. If you can't find the chronicle that interests you here, try Project:Votes for deletion/September 2009 or Project:Votes for deletion/November 2009 for things that may have happened earlier or later, respectively.

Downtown
Please see the discussion which began above under.
 * Delete - Ridiculous. Embarrassing. (WT-en) Texugo 23:43, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete - Indeed --(WT-en) inas 23:50, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete - I think I already layed out my reasons in the Chinatown discussion. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:04, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete, as above. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:50, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete, for the sole reason that it looks silly. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:59, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete - Nonsense. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 07:01, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete - no wait, I'm gonna ad every single conceivable major city we have on wikivoyage, and a few extra to the list... --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:43, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Keep. If our articles were titled Downtown (Pittsburgh) instead of Pittsburgh/Downtown, would the need for this page be clearer?  (WT-en) LtPowers 13:39, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * I think the issue is that "downtown" is part of most cities, and the destination is still Pittsburgh. It's not the same as a redirecting the Taj Mahal to Agra. "Downtown" is quite an abstract sort of destination; typically just the biggest concentration of shops, theaters, bars, etc. in a city/town. If someone is planning a trip to Pittsburgh, I imagine it would lead them to search for Pittsburgh. I just can't fathom that a traveller would simply want to go "downtown" without already knowing the city they will be in or travel to. If you wanted to go "downtown", would you really look over this list and say to yourself: Pittsburgh, Cairo, or Bangkok? It's just too farfetched to imagine that someone would say "I'm going downtown." and then hop on a plane to Cairo. I am curious to know what situation you think someone could use this for? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 16:07, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * I just don't like to assume something has no use, when it's doing little harm and fits our guidelines. (WT-en) LtPowers 17:11, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * The district "Downtown" makes no sense without the Pittsburgh. Downtown is a generic name for a city centre, and we should not be attempting to disambiguate it to a geography.  Downtown, City, Town, CBD, are all generic names for the central area of cities, and they make no sense without the location qualifier.  --(WT-en) inas 19:09, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Delete. No value.  - (WT-en) Dguillaime 14:22, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete. Heh, I added to the list way back when. Hoo, that's embarasing... I see no point in it, especially with more and more cities getting divided up into districts. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 16:55, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Keep. Really, I don't see what the big deal is. It's just a disambiguation page, though not complete I don't think it should just be outright eliminated.
 * Delete. This is clearly too broad a term to merit its own article, and it serves no use to the traveler.  ChubbyWimbus states the case quite well above. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 15:10, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete. Too broad -- most every place has a downtown.  -- (WT-en) Colin 17:17, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete. (WT-en) Pashley 08:31, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:57, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Edakkal caves
An attraction, not an article.
 * Merge with the pre-existing listing on the Wayanad page. (WT-en) Texugo 09:31, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge and redirect A redirect may discourage people from recreating the article, but no strong feelings on this. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 15:22, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Redirected to Wayanad. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 09:49, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Mar Menor
Presumably should be merged into Murcia (region)? (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:13, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Merge - as suggested by Jani, based on the policy on bodies of water. (WT-en) Tarr3n

Outcome: Redirected --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:16, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

"Rhino Camp"
If this is a real destination, it should be redirected to simply Rhino Camp and then delete this page. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:50, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge and redirect to Arua. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:16, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Merged and deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:22, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Amusements
Did you know that portable CD players let you listen to CDs that you buy while you're traveling? That books are a great source of entertainment while traveling? This travel topic stub, created and last expanded in July '08, has that wisdom and more. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:50, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

 *  Delete Redirect per Inas. No useful content, abandoned travel topic, which probably couldn't sustain a good article even with attention. I can't think of any good redirects (Project:Attraction listings would be a bit of a stretch).   --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:10, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Merge and Redirect to Packing list. Good idea to bear remember that book and mp3 player when packing.  Would only see the entire article taking up one line there, though.  Happy to do the hacking. --(WT-en) inas 00:13, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Delete I think the title "Amusements" is too ambiguous to make it a redirect. "Amusements" doesn't bring to mind "packing list" in my opinion. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:35, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

 * The info currently in the article will currently fit in Packing list, but you may be right that the travel topic name itself cannot be redeemed. Let me have a go at the merge/redirect, just to preserve the info, and then see what you think.  --(WT-en) inas 17:01, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

 * For me it seems more appropriate to redirect to Project:Where to stick it? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:35, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

 * A redirect from the main namespace to the Wikivoyage namespace? The cheat shortcuts we have are bad enough at the moment, but we shouldn't redirect travel topics that way. --(WT-en) inas 18:58, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

 * All the info is relocated. If anybody finds the small stub of a redirect offensive, speak again.  I admit it isn't the best of redirect names, but to keep our history, acknowledgements, etc in place, I think it is best that the redirect points where the info went.  --(WT-en) inas 00:07, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

 * With both of these redirects, I definitely see how it can fit into them once they are suggested, but I am still wondering if it is not better deleted, since it's rather ambiguous? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:13, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I think it is a highly unlikely search term. The only reason I can see for retention is the simply the general philosophy that we should keep the history, and try not to break any permanent links that may exist to the articles.   --(WT-en) inas 01:02, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Delete -- or maybe not. Let's create lots of silly redirects for Diversions and Fun and Nifty super neato things and Stuff. (WT-en) Texugo 01:25, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I agree with Texugo — unless we really believe that someone is going to search for "Amusements" when they were trying to find "Packing list", we should not have a redirect. If you kept the original contributor's phrasing during the merge, I'd be happy to write "Bring a book and perhaps a CD player" and offer it up myself. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 08:12, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Okay, I've given my best reasons for retaining a somewhat pathetic article. There was no phrasing retained.  Blow it away..  --(WT-en) inas 08:17, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Nice try, Inas, but delete. (WT-en) Pashley 08:37, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

 * It seems that there is concensus to delete this, so it can be archived as soon as it is deleted. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 03:01, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:28, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

SNUBA
Unlikely to merit its own travel article.
 * Merge and redirect to Scuba diving. (WT-en) Texugo 23:51, 2 August 2009 (EDT)
 * A lot of work is being done on this page right now. I'd say inform the user and/or wait until that user has finished editing before making any moves. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 03:46, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I agree. Best to give active new users a chance to make their contributions before making a decision. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:43, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I lean toward keep since there seems to be quite a bit of info, enough for an independent article. However, I would not object strongly to merging instead. I would like to see more explanation: how does SNUBA work? What are the advantages over normal snorkeling? Can you SNUBA on your own, or does it require expert guidance? What depth range does it apply for? etc. (WT-en) Pashley 09:49, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep. I agree with (WT-en) Pashley.  --(WT-en) inas 19:03, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

Pashley, if you read what is there, it is evident that the airtank stays above on a boat and you have a 7 meter tether. I still feel very strongly about a merge/delete, especially since this is a single company promoting their service, and it's not all that terribly unique in my opinion. (WT-en) Texugo 23:25, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Merge into Scuba diving. What is relevant to say about Snuba already exists in this article, and can easily be condensed into a 1 or 2 paragraph section, I don't see a need to wait and breed more content into the wrong place, in this case. All that's notable about it is lack of carrying a tank on your back, lack of freedom since you're tied to a 7 meter cord, and that you don't need to be certified as a diver. I can't see anything else that distinguishes it enough to make it worth repeating all the similarities with scuba and snorkeling. Listing where it's offered, IMO, is not necessary, as I can't picture anyone planning a trip based on wanting to Snuba, it's simply something to point out as an option if you ever come across it. And per Texugo, we don't allow articles for companies – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 18:47, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

There are many factors that make Snuba unique from scuba diving. 1. The raft itself acts as a diving platform, meaning people that are already nervous about their first experience diving are not just bobbing around in the ocean. 2. The raft is highly visible and provides a measure of safety to prevent against boat traffic accidents. 3. The limited mobility of the 7 meter hose prevents descending deeper than 7 meters, prevents people from straying off and not following instruction, virtually eliminates the problems of Decompression Sickness "the bends" as the depth of 7m for a maximum time of 25 minutes is not deep or long enough to absorb enough nitrogen to produce enough bubbles in the blood to cause the bends (not one case of bends through SNUBA in over 20 years). 4. No certification - yes, uncertified divers can try DSD scuba courses. However, there are many people that have an unnecessay aversion to diving through stereotypes and myths. After experiencing a truly soft approach to diving they are more likely to feel differently about scuba and proceed or allow children to proceed with scuba diving. 5. No tanks to wear - just as innovative as scuba was to those who wanted more freedom, removing the tanks allows another entire range of participants to try diving. Many people have been given the chance to dive that never would have if the option was not available. The handicapped, obese, elderly, children, people with weak knees / backs. 6. Overall attention to safety - soft weights instead of hard to prevent injuries out of the water and damage to coral should a weightbelt be dropped. Padding on the underside of the raft to prevent head injuries, harness attachment to prevent accidental regulator removal underwater, specialized training in addition to scuba diving theory and training. 7. Planning a trip - you would not believe the number of "family men" that have not been able to scuba dive for years as they respect their wifes belief that scuba is dangerous. There are many such people that are either aware of Snuba or seek out Snuba to provide an avenue to opening their family up to the wonders of diving. Many people want to scuba, but are put off by the cost of training and time involved, especially if they live in an area where there is no diving or only recieve limited holiday every year. Snuba gives them the chance to dive and tehy will seek it out. 8. Scuba is not snuba plain and simple. Other than the tanks and the regulator everything is presented and done in a different manner to provide a unique experience that can be translated into education of the ocean and environment, a chance to bring someone into scuba that previously would not have, and provide memories for a lifetime.
 * Keep Snuba is a completetly unique form of diving that has taken the unregulated form of diving called Hookah diving and applied standards and proceedures to it. Throughout the world there are operators that try to pass off hookah diving as a safe alternative to scuba diving. These operations are not licensed, insured, Do not provide professional instructors and are responsible for promoting irresponsible diving practices (ie. not recieving proper training

I am writing this as a PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor and also a Snuba Guide. From my position as a professional in both areas - they are different and equally noteworthy as holiday activities that should be sought to participate in. Just as scuba and snorkeling are different - Snuba is a seperate regulated activity that has gained quite a lot of recognition in America and Japan as such. With continued development and exposure as a holiday activity it is hoped that more people will become educated about our coral reefs. Some people will go on to become licensed scuba divers, some will remain snorkellers and some will seek out a repeat SNUBA adventure on their next holiday.

Lastly, according to the Goals and non-Goals section of Wikivoyage.org this article would be useful for: - travellers still planning - what activites to do (when seeing Snuba as an available activity in a destination it will allow them to read more about the activity within Wikivoyage.org without having to exit to try to find possibly false or misleading information) - Inclusion in other travel guides as the information for all contacts and destinations is up to date. - For travellers on the road - for anyone who sees a brochure or hears from other travellers about Snuba it will give them a source of information to research. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) AlohaMatt (talk • contribs)

 * Looks to me (non-expert, I only snorkel) like the article should be kept, re-titled, and generalised to cover all "hookah diving". SNUBA is just one company's version; cover that too. but with less touting of that company's service. (WT-en) Pashley 05:54, 8 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Merge & delete Keep. My mind's open, since I don't totally understand what this is (wikipedia:Snuba was not helpful, since it is an unsourced promotional piece...). But our Project:Deletion policy is pretty clear—no articles for individual businesses. Should this be merged into a Surface supplied diving/Hooka diving article, or just back into the Scuba diving article, I'm not sure. It clearly will have to be both reduced and rewritten to avoid being an advertisement. And Matt, your vfd comment reads like an advert—please read the deletion policy, and explain (succinctly) why your page qualifies for an article.  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 11:41, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
 * A merge and delete would interfere with the attribution history of the text, wouldn't it? (WT-en) LtPowers 13:25, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Not hardly. It's certainly not policy to keep redirects from articles for businesses (the deletion policy states the opposite), and we don't have any consensus behind keeping them around to preserve attribution history. Even if we did, the vfd discussion clearly shows who the author of the article was, and therefore where the content came from in a potential merge. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 10:24, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

 * The similarities with Scuba are far to vast for this to warrant a separate article, even if there were multiple companies offering it. It will fit perfectly as a paragraph or two in Scuba diving. If somehow enough non-fluffy and non-repetitive content is added at some point, we could assess then if it needs to be split out for size reasons. But it isn't even close to that now – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 17:57, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Firstly, I don't think the similarities with Scuba are sufficient to merge the two. Scuba requires proper training and qualifications.  If you are not interested or have the time for this, then you won't read the Scuba article, but may still well do this stuff.  There is a very different demographic who would be interested in this. I think we just need to find the right article title if we think SNUBA is too linked to one commercial organisation.  We just call the article that, and then reference the commercial organisation within the article if required, and de-tout the article.  --(WT-en) inas 02:19, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Note: Wikipedia's Snuba article has been improved; while the name "Snuba" is trademarked and the process is patented, it does seem to be growing as a vacation activity. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:03, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep. Snuba has introduced more non-divers to scuba diving than any other organized and affiliated effort.  And, was done so inadvertently.   Snuba does not offer scuba or is promoted as an alternative to scuba.  The name and program is proprietary and unique only to Snuba.  If this page were to be considered for merging with a generic category it would be "snorkeling" or "water activities."   Snuba is not scuba.  The Snuba market and programs are directly specifically at non-divers and snorkelers.  I know this first hand.  The dive industry should embrace any efforts to promote Snuba. 69.224.222.179 18:47, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

 * The name and program are as proprietary and unique to Snuba as KFC's recipe is to KFC. We are not the dive industry and we have a policy against promoting commercial enterprises. (WT-en) Texugo 03:06, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

 * The issue is not whether SNUBA is promoting a commercial company, but if having an article on it is of interest and benefit to the traveller. We don't exclude the possibility of commercial promotion - after all every private enterprise we list has that possibility - we just put it behind the priority of giving benefit to the traveller.   If we were wikifood, KFC would probably at least rate a mention.  --(WT-en) inas 06:55, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

 * We're not Wikifood, but a search on "KFC" gets many pages of hits. Our China article, for example, has "As everywhere in the world, prices for food and drink at Chinese airports are vastly inflated. Coffee that is ¥25 in a downtown shop is ¥78 at the same chain's airport branches. KFC seems to be the one exception; their many airport shops charge the same prices as other branches. Paying ¥20 or more for a KFC meal may or may not be worthwhile when there are ¥5 noodles across the street, but at the airports it is usually the best deal around." (WT-en) Pashley 11:27, 23 August 2009 (EDT)

 * If the SNUBA article is seen as promoting a specific company, it is largely because they are leader in a field of one. They dont really operate in a field where there is much competition, so the article must necessarily promote the only participant. Not much one can do about that. I think that the differences from SCUBA are more important than the similarities. It really can be seen as an alternative to both SCUBA and Snorkelling. Some of the safety aspects and advantages claimed are debatable, but I dont think that is the function of this forum. I could expound on this topic to drive a non diver to distraction, so I won't unless someone really wants me to. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 17:17, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep. There may be some issues about whether SNUBA is promoting a specific company, but the term is probably becoming a generic for a mode of diving that is significantly different from recreational SCUBA. As one who has been involved in Recreational, Technical, Scientific and Commercial diving, including instruction in all four of these categories for about 25 years, I dont see where else the information would fit in. It is definitively not snorkel, It is debateably SCUBA, in that it is self contained, but equally it is surface supplied, which in commercial diving is seen as a major distinction fron SCUBA, and similarly in recreational SCUBA where it is generally not used at all by the major diver certification agencies. If it were to be merged with SCUBA it would probably be necessary to rename SCUBA to Recreational Underwater Diving, which would not be particularly user freindly. Another option would be to rename to Recreational Hookah Diving. I would accept that without liking it very much. I have some issues with the claims made by the author of the article, but they are issues of fact, opinion and policy, not whether the article is appropriate as a stand alone. To close off, I would comment that I am very new to Wikivoyage in spite of the number of words I have uploaded, and do not consider myself to be in any way knowledgeable on Wikivoyage policy. This contribution is in response to a request to comment here an the basis of my background in diving. I hope this helps. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 17:17, 25 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I have been back to the SNUBA article and my second impression is that the explanatory sections read a bit too much like an advertising brochure for my taste. There is a constant repetition that the equipment is safe, but nowhere is it mentioned that there is a risk of a lung overpressure or drowning accident, just as for Scuba, and that these are probably the greatest hazards for novice divers. I dont know if this is sufficient to violate Wikivoyage policy, but I would advise toning the hard sell down a bit. Linking to places where it is available seems acceptable, as it is unlikely that this information will be available elsewhere in Wikivoyage. These issues could be corrected easily. I am willing to do them if necessary, but feel that it would be more polite to let the author make the adjustments. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 18:07, 25 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Related questions: We do not seem to have an article on snorkelling. Should we? My guess would be it is at least as common as scuba, let alone snuba. Currently diving is just a redirect to "scuba diving". Should it instead be some sort of overview/disambiguation page with links to snorkelling, scuba and snuba, plus perhaps a brief mention of the deep diving with full suit & a statement that we do not cover that because it is almost never recreational? Any volunteers to write either page? (WT-en) Pashley 22:26, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

 * I will add them to my 'to do' list. Just to check we are on the same wavelength, Diving is to be a disambiguation page directing to options of Scuba diving, SNUBA, and Snorkelling. Possibly also Free diving which is deep breath hold diving, whereas Snorkelling is often considered to be mainly surface swimming with a snorkel. I am taking it that the consensus is to keep SNUBA? Cheers, (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 15:35, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Diving converted to disambiguation page, with brief explanations and links to Scuba diving, SNUBA, Snorkelling and Free diving. The snorkelling and Free diving topics are a bit outside my expertise and interest, but I will keep an eye on them if anyone else writes them, or may put in a couple of outlines at some stage if no-one else is interested. Cheers, (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 16:15, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Looks good, although I'm still wonder if the SNUBA article should be moved to Hookah diving. I'll leave that question for the divers. (WT-en) Pashley 12:00, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

 * As one of the divers, I dont have particularly strong opinion either way. SNUBA would be a subset of Hookah, as Hookah is usually surface supply from a boat or shore, often from a compressor, whereas SNUBA is surface supply from a compressed air cylinder on a self contained and unmanned float, and I dont know of any conventional recreational Hookah operations. I would say leave it for now, and merge with hookah if it ever becomes appropriate. If someone ever writes an article on Hookah then SNUBA could and probably should be included in it. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 15:40, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:29, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

La Candelaria
A standalone district article for the otherwise-undistrictified Bogotá article.
 * Merge with Bogotá. (WT-en) Texugo 01:06, 6 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge then delete (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 01:23, 6 August 2009 (EDT)

 * La Candelaria is Bogotá's primary tourist destination, the location of many hotels and hostels and of most of the city's historical and cultural attractions. This is a travel website, and La Candelaria is Bogotá's primary tourism travel destination. In contrast, Bogotá in general is primarily a business travel destination. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 190.27.235.247 (talk • contribs)

 * Merge & redirect. The article definitely should not (and may not) be deleted per Project:Deletion policy. I think we should eventually district this city of 8 million, and La Candelaria might make for a good, self-sufficient article, but a districts discussion needs to happen first. See Talk:Bogotá There is not a lot of content in either this article, or the main Bogotá article, so a merge should be fine for right now.  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:34, 7 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Looks to me like Peter has it right. Merge & redirect. (WT-en) Pashley 21:58, 7 August 2009 (EDT)

I'd like to add that La Candelaria is qualitatively different from the rest of Bogota, which is known as a business city, the capital of a narcostate, etc. In contrast, La Candelaria is a colonial, artsy neighborhood. Merging it into the rest of Bogotá wouldn't do it justice.

 * No one is disagreeing with you on the notability of the neighborhood. The point is that a districts discussion is needed before district articles should be created. Ad hoc schemes create real messes, that are really hard to clean up—take a look at how awful this one got. If and when we do improve the Bolivia article enough, and complete a districts proposal on the talk page, then we can start creating district articles, and the content you created for La Candelaria will not at all be lost—it will be easy to use it as a base for a new district article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:54, 20 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome Redirected to Bogotá --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:01, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Image:4Vancouver 2010 logo.svg.png

 * Delete. While I would love to have this image on our Vancouver 2010 page, our current image policy makes no provisions for fair use.  (WT-en) LtPowers 18:35, 8 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete. Personal protest against stupid-looking abstract 5-colored olympic logos (and what (WT-en) LtPowers said).  --(WT-en) inas 23:43, 25 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Delete. Hey - that's not abstract, it's an inukshuk :) But I do agree we shouldn't be using it.  One of these days I'll take the photo of the Olympic clock I've been meaning to take to replace it... (WT-en) Shaund 01:00, 26 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Is the inukshuk supposed to be skiing, or something? --(WT-en) inas 01:52, 26 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Nah, it's pretty lazy. Just standing around and being friendly (it's a symbol of cooperation and friendship). (WT-en) Shaund 00:59, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:03, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Six days hiking on Moskenesøy

 * Delete. The trail description is not exact enough. To follow this route you need a detailed map, and a key to the cabin - you can not get either key or map nearby. It is a diffcult and long route, there are better options in the same area. (WT-en) Tofola 09:14, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Why wouldn't we just add this info to the article, and let the traveller decide? --(WT-en) inas 19:20, 9 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep Yes, the information is currently insufficient, but it has enough of a layout to allow someone to add to it. If you have more information about this hike, like where to get the key and such, then why not add it? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 04:04, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep. As I argued above.  --(WT-en) inas 22:45, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:06, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

McGee Creek
This appears to be nothing but a creek or trailhead named after a creek near Bishop, California. Any useful information, if there were any, should go in that article. I might suggest a redirect to McGee Creek State Park in Oklahoma, if there were such an article. I don't think redirecting it to Bishop makes any sense given the Google results I got.
 * Delete or Redirect to Antlers, the nearest town to the OK state park for which we have an article, and add a listing to that town's Get Out section. (WT-en) Texugo 02:54, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
 * The place in California is a real destination, but it is small. I'd suggest a disambig page so the State Park in OK is reachable.  The place in California should probably be folded in to Tom's Place.  In other news, I'll go through the Mono County article and remove a bunch of too-small destinations. -- (WT-en) Colin 12:23, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
 * It is a community? I could find any evidence on Google, Google Maps, or Wikipedia. (WT-en) Texugo 23:34, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
 * I was confused. Some of the other Canyons in the region are destinations with multiple sleep options, but this one is just fishing plus one campground.  No need for an article for the California McGee Creek. -- (WT-en) Colin 14:42, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Redirected to Antlers

Lake Shikotsu
Per Project:Bodies of water.
 * Merge Shikotsu-Toya National Park and create/merge into Shikotsu Kohan, the main town along the lakefront. (WT-en) Texugo 10:37, 22 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Merged and redirected --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:34, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Lake Toya
Per Project:Bodies of water.
 * Merge into Shikotsu-Toya National Park and/or Toyako, the main town on the lakefront. (WT-en) Texugo 10:38, 22 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Merged and redirected --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:34, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Cape Town/City Harvest Festival
See Talk:Cape Town for where this page came from. It's no longer useful (never really was, for that matter) and possibly a copyvio. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:54, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:34, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Medjumbe
I don't know what I think about this one. It's a private island visitable only through the proprietary resort company, which I think makes it kind of like XChalet or some of those other resorts in the Mexican Carribean coast, destinations for which we have decided against allowing articles for. The See and Do options are already admittedly few, and any Get in, Get around, Eat, or Sleep sections are all going to end up being things provided by the same resort company (and indeed what is there now reads like touting). The only thing going for it is that it's an hour flight away from the next closest destination. I'm still leaning toward merging it into the Get out section of Pemba and making this a redirect to that section. What do you guys think?
 * Merge and Redirect (WT-en) Texugo 22:59, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Keep. If the only way to get there is a one-hour flight and you can sleep there, it's a destination of its own, even if there isn't very much there.  See eg. Layang Layang. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:06, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Keep. Agree with (WT-en) Jpatokal. --(WT-en) inas 22:44, 7 September 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Kept --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:34, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Campsite
I think this is a bit of an overlap, since we already have a Camping travel topic. Also, I believe that creating a list of worldwide camping sites with a map that displays all of them is not practical (maybe even impossible). What do you think about this? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 14:05, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Speedy redirect to Camping. I was about to vfd it myself, not realizing that we do have a Camping article. The map idea to me sounds clearly impossible, and should anyway be discussed elsewhere (Talk:Camping). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:34, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Camping in South Africa now has the same content, also better suited for Talk:Camping. I've VFD-tagged it too. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 19:19, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

Outcome Redirected to Camping --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:36, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Ebbsfleet International

 * Delete. Railway stations don't get articles. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:37, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge into Ebbsfleet Valley. Whatever the consensus, the same thing should happen to Ashford International as well.  - (WT-en) Dguillaime 21:22, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge and Redirect into Kent. We should have the info in WT on this station, as it is significant to travellers, but where should it go?  Merging into the closest town just seems wrong to me, as lots of people are going to go through that station with little or no interest in the  town being built around it.  It is like airport info for a city, we don't usually put it in the small town that has the airport, but in the city the airport serves.  --(WT-en) inas 21:35, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge and Redirect both into Kent and makes sense to me as well. Note though that England currently links to the town of Ashford_(England) and not to the county of Kent.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:54, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Merge and Redirect into towns Ashford_(England) and Ebbsfleet Valley. England linking to each town is better. Thanks--(WT-en) Webextra 17:54, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

Outcome Merged and redirected to Kent --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:42, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Skopje/Šuto Orizari

 * Merge and redirect to Skopje. This is a single district article for an otherwise un-districtified city of under 600,000 people. (WT-en) Texugo 22:55, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

Gelato

 * Please speedy delete as it is an ad. (WT-en) jan 07:00, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Speedied - (WT-en) Texugo

Fiji tours
Same user as above, left a friendly note on his talk page, any non commercial info there could be salvaged to Fiji if anyone would be so inclined, but other than that i root for deletion. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:20, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Speedied. Obvious non-article. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:32, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

ChooseName

 * Please speedy delete as it is obvius spam (WT-en) jan 06:48, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Speedied - (WT-en) Texugo 12:22, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Vaishno devi yatra
Copy vio from http://www.himalayanhills.net/vaishno_devi_yatra.html. And hardly an article. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:39, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Speedied. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:11, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

Www.northofordinary.ca and Www.filodautoreravello.it
Two for speedying. Both ads and nothing else.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:21, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Speedied. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:13, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

OURANOUPOLI
Useless and another copy vio. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Move it to Ouranoupoli, title in our usual format, remove the copyright violation text, but keep the article since it is a real place. (WT-en) Pashley 07:32, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Changed my mind. We already have an article titled Ouranoupolis. Delete this one. If it has any useful info, copy it there first. (WT-en) Pashley 07:38, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: Deleted. (WT-en) Pashley 07:53, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Omkareshwar
A Hindu temple, all text copied from the Wikipedia article. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 15:21, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
 * Keep. I reverted it to the previous version, which isn't a copyvio.  It's been up for VfD before, with this resolution.   - (WT-en) Dguillaime 21:25, 4 July 2009 (EDT)
 * It seems the previous discussion did not quite resolve the issue of whether or not this destination should be redirected to the island or city name... I don't suppose anyone knows anything more now? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 21:58, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

Outcome: kept. (WT-en) Pashley 08:04, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

Cruising the Baltic Sea

 * Delete. I don't see any reason to split this type of information out from our destination guides. Also, much of the article appears to be a copyright violation . --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:32, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
 * Hmm, but we don't really have an article on the Baltic Sea. That title currently redirects to Baltic States, which you linked, but the sea borders other countries as well.  Of course, if it's a copyvio...  (WT-en) LtPowers 20:57, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep, for time being. I actually told the user to try his hand at creating this instead of his original attempt at "Baltic Sea", which is clearly a no-no. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:15, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

 * There is no copyright violation although some of the stuff was research elsewhere the sentences are my own. Baltic states is only 3 small states and the cruises seldom stop at any of them. The current redirect to baltic states from baltic sea actually makes no sense in my estimation since it is based only one the word being the same so far as I can tell. Baltic states is only a minor destination of three countries and have very little tourist value while the Baltic Seas cruises are quite popular and getting more so. You guys can, of course, do whatever you want. My intent is to provide a resource that can be used to springboard into other articles on the site and easy reference for a person going on the cruise. Of course there are many cruises and they don't all hit the same ports so the general nature is to provide references to all possible ports for the user. --(WT-en) DaleDe 01:20, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Just for the record, the two times I have checked, I get exact matches for copyrighted text (this last time: "sea temperature which, in the late spring is dependent upon the melting of the Winter"). My personal experience has been that cruises on the Baltic Sea that do not feature stops in the Baltic States rarely refer to the sea's name at all. Whenever I've seen "Baltic Cruises" or something of that sort, there is at least a stop in Riga. But my point above is really about content—there's no overwhelming amount of travel content that needs to be split out of the guides.

 * All that said, I disagree with Jani—I think it would be perfectly acceptable to have a Baltic Sea region article. But the copyvio text has to go. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:30, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Perfectly acceptable doesn't (to me) convey the gist of Project:Bodies of water. While I know there have been numerous discussions on this, so far the policy still reads that a destination guide (which includes a region guide, in my understanding) on a body of water is not acceptable.   --(WT-en) inas 02:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * That would contradict my reading of Project:Bodies_of_water. The point of that policy is that we don't create articles to write about the bodies of water, and that is not what Dale has set out to do. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:52, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * I've been reading it as we don't make articles about bodies of water unless that's the natural name for the region in which they are located. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:44, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * This is beside the point -- in this particular case, it's quite obvious that "Baltic Sea" is not a sensible or necessary region grouping, since a) the countries around are dissimilar (compare, say, Kaliningrad and Denmark) and b) all the countries around it are already slotted in elsewhere.

 * However, I do agree with the original creator that the Baltic Sea is much larger than the three Baltic states, and that many cruises on that body of water don't even visit them. Eg. of the 7 cruises listed at  (#1 hit on Google for "baltic sea cruises"), only two actually stop in any of the Baltics. (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:13, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Keep, it would be a sub page for all neighbourhoodpages of Northern Europe so I dont see the problem of joining all that into one page (this) and linking it from the get in, get around, do sections. -- (WT-en) Eiland 14:32, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

 * I'm removing the tag from the page as there doesn't seem to be consensus. -- (WT-en) Eiland 06:54, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

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