text:
Talk:Isle of Arran

Lochranza convenience store?
Is there a convenience store in Lochranza any more? If not, where can you get a key to the castle? From the hostel, maybe?

City/Town/Village?
The cities and other destinations should be split off into their own articles (assuming they're large enough for a tourist to stay in). (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:52, 6 Feb 2005 (EST)

The cities heading should be renamed towns / villages. (WT-en) Psychofox 03:18, 20 Mar 2005 (GMT)

 * The definiton of a City is rather loose concept on Wikivoyage and is also a standard template heading. Basically read City to mean any community large enough to support places for visitors, not just the locals, to eat, drink, sleep, buy necessities and communicate with the outside world. If it has a Police Station, a Post Office, Internet Cafe and a local Community Council it probably qualifies as a City. Having its own community website and Library probably also rates too. Destinations are normally places or communities that you can sleep at, in a commercial sleeping place not a private home, and each should have their own page. Does this help size things? -- (WT-en) Huttite 23:43, 19 Mar 2005 (EST)

I agree with Psychofox. The template saying "City" is a bit confusing - surely it would be better to start with Huge City, then City, then Towns, Villages. (WT-en) DanielC 15:38, 20 Mar 2005 (GMT)

 * The "Cities" section is standard for all regions (see the Project:region article template). Dividing the "Cities" section into multiple sub-sections is unnecessarily complicated and error-prone (how big is a town? how big is a village? how many people, how many hectares? if a big town feels like a small city, do we put it under "cities" or "towns"?). There's no other word in English besides "city" that applies for communities of 10,000 to 10 million. It's easy to add a brief description of each city to describe it ("huge megalopolis known for sorghum production", "teensy hamlet by the sea"), which is probably more descriptive than using different headings. --(WT-en) Evan 11:08, 20 Mar 2005 (EST)

 * A fair point Evan, except that the entire poulation of Arran is only around 5000. I understand the Wikivoyage definition of "city" but anyone describing even Lamlash (the largest village on the island) as a "city" would probably be forcibly escorted back to the ferry, and might well expect to see the men in white coats waiting when they disembarked at Ardrossan! My feeling for Arran is that we should aim to create a really good quality article covering the whole island on the one page. At present, it doesn't meet that description but there's plenty of good material here to work with. I know that most of the villages on the island have at least 1 place in which to sleep, thus qualifying as destinations in their own right, but I really don't see the value in having lots of "City" articles each with very little content. (WT-en) Tarr3n 07:51, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

Too much info under villages?
Just back from Arran today, so making a few checks to see how the pages here stand up. It seems to me, compared to other articles for similar islands and destinations, that there is far too much information in far too many formats under the Villages section. Should these entries not be edited a bit, and relevant info moved (and expanded, with contact details etc) to Eat, Sleep & Do sections further down the page? (WT-en) Jamesbrownontheroad 17:44, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Definitely, the current page is an unusable mess. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:43, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

Status of this article
I have just knocked it back from guide to usable. Hate doing that, but the listings are just not up to guide status to my eyes. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:40, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
 * I agree. I've started to pull some of the info out from the "Villages" section and list it in the proper places (see, do, sleep etc.). I'm getting rid of a lot of duplication as I go. Once that's done we can start to tidy up the listings and get it up to Guide standard. The ferry info could do with some de-encyclopaedia-ifying as well. I need to go and do some real work now though so I'll have to come back to it! Anyone else want to join in? (WT-en) Tarr3n 09:24, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Update. I think all the listings are where they ought to be, and the list of villages is a bit more manageable. I've tried to rewrite the brief descriptions of each village but I'm sure in some cases this could be improved upon! A lot of the listings are a bit basic and almost all of them could do with bringing up to the Manual of Style Standards. I've vfd'd Penrioch, a tiny village which somebody had created an article for. Hopefully that might have the happy side effect of a few people taking notice of this article and putting in a bit of tidying up work.(WT-en) Tarr3n 07:15, 2 November 2009 (EST)

Clan Horse Arran farm park
I removed the following listing from the see section, which seems to be closed. Add it back in if you know more about it: 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Visit the Clan Horse Arran farm park

Large edit
In this large edit, quite a lot of useful information was added, but at the same time also useful information and structure was deleted. I'll try to recover some of the lost information if I find the time to do it, but I wanted to leave a reference here until then. Also, the newly introduced "Getting to Ardrossan" should probably merged with the Ardrossan article and only a reference should be left here. Xsobev (talk) 17:17, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I spend some time recovering deleted stuff, but it is very tedious, since some of the information has just been deleted, other information has been rewritten. could you please elaborate, why you deleted certain things? There were very useful geo-coordinates, details on buses, the tourist information center, ... I really appreciate your additions and reformulations, but if you delete stuff, then it would be great if you explained in your edit, why you deleted it. Also, making smaller edits would make it much easier to keep track of what is changed - and it would now be much easier to recover some of the information. Xsobev (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, so I think I recovered most of the deleted stuff. There might still be something left that I missed. Xsobev (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

REPLY: Hi, first of all apologies if I’ve messed anyone up. I made a big edit to this entry last year, explaining all of which would have been even bigger, but I’d hate to hose off a fellow-contributor. I was planning in the next week or so to update for the 2017 summer season, so it may be that what you’re doing now is saving me a job, thanks. But in general I’m sceptical of detail which, while not incorrect, might mislead the visitor. A few examples:

Coordinates: these create a blob on a wiki map that is helpful for urban & man-made features but not designed for open country. Thus for Goat Fell the coods given are for the summit, so there’s a grey blob in a great white space, where are the paths and the cliffs and the bogs? And the summit is the very cood that the visitor least needs, it’s the biggest sticky-up thing on the island, so either it’s in plain view or conditions are such that it’s unwise to venture up. What the visitor more appreciates is the start of the access paths, and street directions suffice for this, eg “just by the castle gates”.

Mybus: this is a taxpayer-subsidised system to assist people with restricted access to the public transport net. It’s not a cheap taxi to take prosperous foreigners to the golf course. So eligibility is key: more needs to be said about this, probably in the “Scotland: get around” pages, with links from all the areas such as Arran where these schemes operate. (It’s actually two schemes: one for individual mobility impairment, the other for able bodies who are just a long way from a bus route. Both merit describing.) Pending such detail, I thought best just to leave the phone number for enquiries; the hours of operation only become relevant if the eligibility hurdle is cleared.

Health: needs to focus on what’s specific to Arran. Ring 999 is nationwide advice, we don’t need it on other pages so why here? And there’s truckloads of similar advice that’s better covered by NHS Scotland than by an individual GP website. Eg they recommend re-registering if you’re going to stay 3+ months, which is valid enough, but they don’t say how that varies for UK, EU and other nationalities. And they give out the number of the cottage hospital, only to warn not to use it, it’s not an entry portal to the NHS. But visitors are likely to try it, thinking they’ve discovered an inside track to services.

The further edits I plan for Arran will all be piecemeal, where as you say it’s easier to explain and debate and if necessary revert. Regards – gs

 * Hi and thanks for your reply with your explanations.
 * Regarding coordinates: They can be used for a variety of purposes, so I would definitely include them. For example, when I'm new to a place, they provide me with a quick overview of where interesting things are located and how many things there are to do and see (so for example, they quickly tell me that there are interesting things to do close to Brodick and if I only have one day, that's probably the best place to go explore the island). Also regarding the Goat Fell example, if you zoom in on the map, paths leading to the geo marker pointing at the Goat Fell summit will become visible, so it's easy to trace back on the map where the path starts. So, the more geo markers there are, the easier it is to quickly plan visiting and then navigate around a place. Of course, they don't replace the description in the "directions" field.
 * Regarding Mybus: I don't know the details about this service, but from the linked webpage it sounds as if it is a general service open to everyone: "MyBus is a bookable bus service offering door-to-door transport in your area. MyBus can be used for shopping, GP appointments, visiting friends, attending local clubs, and much more.". Also, not every visitor of the island is a "prosperous foreigner going to the golf course". So, for example if you are going hiking it might come in handy to be picked up or dropped off at locations where no other public bus service goes, especially if you cannot afford a taxi. I might be wrong about what MyBus is about, so in any case, it would benefit further clarification.
 * Regarding the health section: I think you're right, so please feel free edit this section.
 * Thanks again for your edits and the planned step-by-step changes. Xsobev (talk) 17:46, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that Mybus should be put back, but with a note "This is a public service operating on a tight budget, you may wish to enquire locally before booking." Our readers may include elderly on a day out from Ayr, who are fully entilled to use the service that their taxes have paid for. Locals may be able to suggest that some don't use it, but that a group booking a journey at a quiet time may help to keep the service running. AlasdairW (talk) 12:04, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Isle of Arran


text:
Talk:Isle of Man

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Isle of Man/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

About the buses and bicycles

Is taking a bicycle on the buses allowed? are there racks to put a bicycle on? is bicycling allowed or advised on the roads there?--68.227.172.26 18:27, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Miles or Kilometres?
Does the Isle of Man use miles like the rest of the UK or do they use km like Ireland? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:00, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Miles.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Isle of Man


text:
Talk:Isle of Wight

Hi and Welcome. You may want to take a look at Ko Samet and the templates for an example of how an island guide can work.

title: Talk:Isle of Wight


text:
Talk:Isle Royale National Park

Star article
I think that this article is very close to or meets the criteria for a star article status, so here's a place to comment about that. A couple of very minor suggestions for improvement:
 * 1) Re-format the lodge under the "Sleep" section according to Project:Accommodation listings.  Since it's the only accommodation on the island and having only one bullet point might look weird it could be considered as an exception to the rule, but if so note the reason on the talk page.  Ditto for the food options under "Eat" and the ferry options under "Get in".
 * 2) Move the map closer to the top of the article - it's a very valuable piece of info that might be best if highlighted sooner.
 * 3) Until we actually have an article on "leave-no-trace-camping" it might be better to leave that as a non-link.

Amazing work! -- (WT-en) Ryan 18:09, 21 March 2006 (EST)

Thanks! Far be it from me to argue with a classification upgrade... glad you like it. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:38, 21 March 2006 (EST)
 * 1) I see the entries under Sleep and Eat as dog-walking-on-two-legs items: It's remarkable to see them there at all, let alone formatted according to MoS. {grin} I'll see what I can do with them.
 * 2) The map would work OK in the Landscape section, I suppose.  Which draws my attention to the fact that I need to add a distance scale to it....
 * 3) I'm about to start work on leave-no-trace camping, actually.  It's my own personal "Get out" from this page, and that's why I linked it.

 * Thanks for the changes. I'd not be opposed to upgrading this to "star" now, although you may want to wait a couple of days to see if anyone else has any feedback.  Great job. -- (WT-en) Ryan 22:46, 21 March 2006 (EST)

We're putting together a process for evaluating "star" articles, so I've listed this at Project:Star nominations. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek

from Project:Star_nominations
Previous unilaterally-applied Star, going for confirmation. Anything that's missing from the article is probably also missing from the destination. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 10:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 09:06, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. This is pretty much the template of what a perfect national park article should look like. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:15, 15 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. Great article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Comment: I was wrong about my "anything missing from the article" remark above; I just got back from 10 days hiking from one end of IR to other, and I have stuff to add. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:03, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. I don't think "nothing missing" is a necessary condition :) (WT-en) Hypatia 21:07, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. What Hypatia said. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:39, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Support. very nice article(WT-en) Berru 13:15, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

Banner image
I looked through the images for Isle Royale on Commons but none of the images there were of high enough resolution to make a cropped banner image. If someone has an image of Isle Royale scenery that is at least 2100 pixels wide and can be cropped to 300 pixels high, please upload it Commons so we can replace the generic banner with one befitting a Star article.

Epolk (talk) 23:23, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

 * There are a number of good images on Flickr: https://secure.flickr.com/search/?q=Isle+Royale&l=commderiv&ss=2&ct=0&mt=photos&w=all&adv=1 ... Another option would be a satellite image of the island, whose shape is fairly well suited to a long banner.  LtPowers (talk) 00:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Already snagged one ;) --Peter Talk 00:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Rock Harbor Lodge
So Rock Harbor Lodge is the only eat and only lodging entry in this article. Why does the address and location on the web site point to a Michigan Technological University car park (not on the island)? --Traveler100 (talk) 20:38, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

de-star discussionIsle Royale National Park
It's a little surprising that this was ever nominated for star status. There are long lists of campsites (it lists 36 options), hardly any coordinates at all, and a lot of hyphens where there shouldn't be hyphens. Not saying the article should necessarily be de-starred, but I'm interested on other opinions for this one. While fixing is better than de-starring, things like fixing a list that's too long require consensus and aren't jobs that should be done on a star-status article. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 21:43, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

 * In an area of 74 km × 14 km it is not surprising to have many places to sleep. Here it isn't a question on choosing among adjacent hotels, but finding a place to sleep in the area you chose to visit. As such, I suppose the list should not be trimmed (the much less visited Käsivarsi Wilderness Area lists 28 lodgings, Nordkalottleden some fifty, for similar reasons). Coordinates should of course be added (I suppose they were not common and not as usable when the article was written) and the camping sites should probably be grouped in some sensible way. Getting rid of dashes seems an easy task. Fixing these problems should not be too difficult. --LPfi (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure why it's surprising that this article was ever nominated for star? Indeed, it has few coordinates - but you should know that only a few years ago, dynamic maps where not accepted by all to serve in star articles, and static maps where considered to be better in terms of usability. Long lists are not all that uncommon in star articles either, since they are expected to be "essentially complete. That requirement does invite relatively wide lists of options in all categories. Now, if usability is seriously compromised and cannot easily be restored, de-starring is warranted. In this case, however, and while I'm all for adding coordinates, the static map is still available and the lack of coordinates therefore appears to have a limited impact in terms of usability for travellers. All in all, I also think this article should be fixed up a bit, but not de-starred. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Have added a few coordinates, the campsite list is shown well on the static map. Think this can stay star.--Traveler100 (talk) 09:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The only obvious thing making this no longer a star article was the awful dynamic map, which had almost no information. I've removed it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:55, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Sleep section
Isn't the MoS to rather use dot points rather than numbers? I'm reluctant to touch it if it were agreed upon when nominated for star, but can anyone explain why? (visualisation below) instead of

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:05, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The text says "numbers correspond to locations on map", except that they don't. Someone added in a lodging ahead of the list of campgrounds so the numbers in boxes (dynamic) don't line up with the numbered list and static map. Ground Zero (talk) 01:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I don't think this can easily be fixed, because I'm confused with the numbers. It appears that there was a destar nom for this before. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I moved the lodge to the bottom of the Sleep section so that the numbers line up with the map again-- Merritt Lake Campground is #1 on the map and #1 in the list. Ground Zero (talk) 01:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Dynamic map
Doesn't every star article need to have a dynamic map nowadays? Looking at old discussions, it seems older star articles didn't need to have them, but most of them eventually got a dynamic map. Would it make sense for this article to have a dynamic map, or should it remain dynamic-map less? I know it was added then removed, but if it doesn't have a dynamic map, the coordinates on the see section remain pointless. If needed, I can make it togglable as well, but I'm not sure how that'll turn out. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:54, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't pay much attention to star articles, so I'm not the one to ask. Ground Zero (talk) 16:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Unless there's a need for one, don't bother. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:35, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The need for it is that all star articles should have one. I might make a togglable one instead though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * A togglable one is fine, but who said that all star articles have to have a dynamic map? I disagree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The last minute checklist says "Illustration: the article should be appropriately illustrated with pictures and a Wikivoyage-style map, with all attractions marked." SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:00, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * A Wikivoyage-style map can be either static or dynamic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The current map is not a Wikivoyage style static map though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You're right, but I think ttcf trumps that issue in this exceptional case, because it's a lot better than regular Wikivoyage-style maps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:54, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * True. But I still think that this is not the best kind of star article we have, as the campground lists need to be cut down per WV:Avoid long lists. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:56, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't believe in subtracting useful information like that. Instead, we could consider dividing the 36-item list into smaller sub-lists, but I'm not going to work on that and doubt it should be a priority. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue with dividing the 36 item list into smaller sub-lists is that the numbers won't align up with the map anymore. But apart from that, it seems the only viable solution for now (I'm also not going to do it now, maybe next month?) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:20, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, someone would have to edit the map accordingly. So why bother, unless you want to edit the map, too? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Isle Royale National Park


text:
Talk:Isles of Scilly

My wife's relatives came from Mousehole and I would like to plan a trip to the Isles from the US. What would be your best advice as to time of year and transportation?

If you have not already been advised, I suggest that you take a train from London Paddington station to Penzance from where you could hire a car to tour the local area including Mousehole. Then use the helicopter service from Penzance to travel to the Isles of Scilly (St. Mary's). If you intend to stay for a while book accommodation well in advance. Spring/Summer is probably the best time to visit. Your travel agent should have access to all the information required to arrange your visit.

Individual islands
By having this as one article for all of the islands, I'm struggling with where to put a general description of seeing and doing each of the off islands. Where's best for an introduction on each? -- (WT-en) Andyfarrell 04:28, 5 June 2010 (EDT)

 * I'd say See, like I did on the Sydfynske Øhav, but I don't think we have an established standard. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 05:20, 5 June 2010 (EDT)

 * Agreed. And it seems to work nicely. I am very happy to see this article progressing so well from the weak outline that it was a week ago. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:09, 5 June 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Isles of Scilly


text:
Talk:Isola Polvese

''This page is for discussing the corresponding article or guide. For more about using talk pages check out Project:Using talk pages.''

Need for a Isola Polvese article
(WT-en) Shep asked the following question on my talk page - (WT-en) Huttite 19:23, 28 December 2009 (EST)
 * Hi again. What is the point of providing a wikilink to a blank page? Seems to me that anyone following that link would just get pissed off with Wikivoyage. The Isola Polvese page provides less info than is available on the Lake Trasimeno page. (WT-en) Shep 11:08, 27 December 2009 (EST)

My reply:
 * Isola Polvese was an orphaned page that should have been linked into the geographical hierarchy. The Lake Trasimeno article seems the most logical place to link from. I think people would be more annoyed by the fact we had an article about Isola Polvese that nobody had thought to provide a link to it from Lake Trasimeno; I certainly was. Since anyone can edit a page, the lack of information is not a serious problem at the moment. If you think the Isola Polvese article is inadequate, please plunge forward and improve it.
 * To explain further. I am currently placing orphaned pages into the geographical hierarchy. I feel that linking to existing outline articles from their region pages is more important than making destination articles perfect before linking them. At least that way readers know these articles exist and can see each article in its regional context. These are works in progress and are liable to change.
 * In the case of Isola Polvese, I was faced with the problem of finding the best place to link this outline article. The Lake Trasimeno article is the relevant region article that Isola Polvese was identified as an Other destination - so it was the best article to link from.
 * Since you have questioned if that was the right thing to do, I took a closer look at the Lake Trasimeno article. I can see that it does not follow the Manual of style as the long descriptions for each destination which need to be shortened to one line listings and it also has sleep listings for several destinations. Over time I would expect those listings to migrate to their destination articles, once they are written, as should also happen with the information about Isola Polvese in the Lake Trasimeno article.
 * Please note that region guides and other destination guides, such as city and park guides, perform different functions in Wikivoyage's geographical hierarchy. A region guide provides an overview of the destinations in the region, while the city and park destination guides provide the details. This is so that the region guide is not too cluttered with minute details. One implication is that region guides do not usually have a Sleep section, as Sleep listings appear only once each in the respective end destinations. Since being able to sleep there is a minimum criteria for an article, the logical consequence is that the sleep section is redundant in the region guide. - (WT-en) Huttite 05:45, 28 December 2009 (EST)

You further pleaded this subject on my talk page as follows:
 * There has been a lengthy and unresolved discussion on this topic at Project:Bodies of water. Wikivoyagers seem to be split between people like you and Texugo who seem to attach a lot of importance to structure and people like me and Peter Fitzgerald who believe that there can be no hard and fast rules and that rules are made to be broken where appropriate to the local situation. The rules cannot possibly take into account all possible scenarios. Isola Polvese is a little island in the middle of a fairly small lake. In Lake Trasimeno I think I have said all that really needs to be said about it in Wikivoyage. My recommendation would be to delete the page on Isola Polvese. It just isn't needed.(WT-en) Shep 10:51, 28 December 2009 (EST)

and I have responded.
 * You raise several issues in the above plea. I think the issues need to be teased out and dealt with separately.
 * Firstly, I do not think that there would be consensus to delete the Isola Polvese article, for the following reasons.

 * 1) It is probably a valid destination article.
 * 2) Even if it is not a valid destination, it is certainly an attraction of Lake Trasimeno.
 * 3) As a minimum it can be merged with and redirected to Lake Trasimeno.
 * It would also be most helpful if the specific discussion about the need for an article like Isola Polvese was started and continued on Talk:Isola Polvese.
 * Second, I have no problem with bodies of water names being used for regions surrounding, in, or even under, those bodies of water. The problem arises where the article is about the water, not the land.
 * Third, some structure and rules are helpful and we have a Project:Manual of style that most people seem to agree is a good idea to follow. I believe I am following those guidelines, not rules. If you think I am wrong for doing that then please gain consensus for new or different Project:Community policies that meet your needs, and I will try and follow them too!
 * Lastly, it would be a good idea to plunge forward and devote your efforts to improving the Lake Trasimeno region and do something with the Isola Polvese before somebody else does. - (WT-en) Huttite 19:04, 28 December 2009 (EST)

I have copied the full discussion here but some of the discussion should take place on Talk:Lake Trasimeno or other places. Please feel free to raise the various issues that arise on the most appropriate page. - (WT-en) Huttite 19:23, 28 December 2009 (EST)

title: Talk:Isola Polvese


text:
Talk:Israel

American Support
I know this is not directly relevant to travel, but I think the fact that Israel has unconditional American support in terms of foreign relations is most certainly significant to its history. For instance, it was with American weapons that Israel was able to win wars against the Arabs, and even today, Israel continues to receive a lot of funding from American Jewish and Evangelical groups. I'm not here to argue for or against any particular foreign policy, but I feel that U.S. support is such a cornerstone of Israeli and American politics that it feels like ignoring the elephant in the room if we do not mention anything about it. The dog2 (talk) 05:01, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Israel's creation also needed Soviet support. In the 50s-early 60s, its main ally and weapons supplier was France not the US. Nowadays, it also has strong relations with some European states, Jordan, India, and other allies. Within the US, Israel has strong support from most of the Jewish spectrum (not just Orthodox), and among non-Jews, from many people who are secular but value a democracy in the Middle East. So I think what you wrote was a bit misleading or inaccurate, and also not particularly important to add, so I would not include it. However, let's wait to see what other people think. Ar2332 (talk) 07:38, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * American support for Israel since 1967 can be noted, but of course Ar2332 is correct on other points, particularly that France was the most important ally of Israel before 1967 and the Soviet Union was a crucial advocate of the 1947 Partition Plan, though they broke with Israel later. The U.S. was pretty hostile to Israel during the Eisenhower Administration, and neither the Carter Administration nor the first Bush Administration gave Israel anything close to a blank check. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It's also worth pointing out that the overwhelming bulk of U.S. "aid" is actually the U.S. government sending money to foreign countries that has to be spent buying things from U.S. companies, so what it really amounts to is the U.S. government paying American corporations, with a foreign government as the middleman. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The fact that Nixon would go on antisemitic tirades and yet still deliver a last second weapons shipment in 1973 should tell one that this American "support" has everything to do with geopolitics and nothing with religion. Why the even more (compared to the United States) secular and multiparty countries of Europe largely do not see a kindred nation in Israel is beyond me, but maybe that's to do with Germany's and Austria's decision to start courting the Islamic Republic when everybody else justifiedly shunned them for attacking embassies, the no-no in international relations. At any rate, Israel doesn't necessarily get to choose allies. And in some cases it should in my opinion abandon bad allies like Erdoğan in favor of rapprochement with Kurds and Armenians... But for a travel guide all this is beside the point. I do think Israel requiring a visa off Nicaraguan citizens may have something to do with the policy of Ortega/Murillo towards the middle east, though... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:00, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, I guess I didn't know about the pre-1967 French support, as most of the European countries, including France, voted in favour of recognising the Palestinian state, while the U.S. voted against it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you look at the modern American political landscape, Republicans tend to support Israel unconditionally, while Democrats, while by no means anti-Israel, can sometimes be critical of Israel over things like the settlement building. My understanding is that as a whole, most Jews vote Democrat, but Orthodox Jews vote Republican. And while we do not have to go into detail in this article, the Jewish population of the U.S. is too small to have that significant an effect on U.S. foreign policy. The Evangelical voters are probably the single most important factor behind the Republican Party's unconditional support for Israel; they want the Jews to kick the Muslims out of the Holy Land and demolish Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome on the Rock to fulfill the prophecy in the Book of Revelation to bring about the Second Coming of Christ, and in fact, they want Israel to go to war with Iran as they believe that to be a prophecy that has to be fulfilled for the Second Coming. Of course, that doesn't mean that the Evangelicals actually like the Jews, but rather they see the Jews as cogs in the wheel needed to bring about the Second Coming; they believe that Jesus will kill off most of the Jews and all the other non-Christians (which means all Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, etc.) and send them off to hell for all eternity, while the surviving Jews would convert to Christianity and finally accept Jesus as their saviour. So while American support for Israel most certainly has a geopolitical aspect, it is very much a religious one as well. The dog2 (talk) 15:10, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I find it funny that people who often say (and to make this clear I do not mean anybody on this talk page) stuff to the effect that the likes of Al Qaida leaders or the leaders of Iran "don't actually mean" all the religious stuff they keep saying day in and day out are quick to say that American leaders actually do mean all the religious stuff they are saying. If anything, it seems to me more likely that a scion of a billionaire family like Osama bin Laden would be genuine in his warped worldview when it includes him moving to a cave in Afghanistan for a while than a politician being genuine who knows that professing his never ending love for "jeebus" will get him votes and cost him practically nothing. Not least the phenomenon of the closeted Christian homophobe seems to point that way... Anyway, I think leftist Jews often vote Democrat holding their noses as many, many Jews are - and have historically been - very involved in the advancement of the causes of numerous minorities (just look at who the light skinned allies of MLK and the ANC tended to be for one example - Jews and Communists, mostly - or Jewish communists), so they often overlook the "geopolitical antisemitism" of the far left... At any rate, outside of a tiny but very loud minority of the likes of Neturei Karta (who are like what, 300 people?) most Jews are at least implicitly Zionist of some kind. That implicit Zionism can go from "Well I guess we can live with Bibi until the Messiah comes" to "You know, I dislike the Rabbinate, but at least you can get married in Cyprus" to "Well I guess a Jewish state the size of Tel Aviv would be okay" to "You know, the Jordan river has two banks, doesn't it?" However, despite the common portrayal, Jews are not an important voting bloc. They make up a single digit percentage of the electorate and largely congregate in areas that are not "in play" during presidential elections. It is, however, as seen by the example of the AfD in Germany often advantageous for PR among goyish voters to have "Jewish supporters" - especially when the cause is rather bigoted or even antisemitic. The "logic" in this is often "Well they might be saying mean stuff about Muslims, but they have a Jew who says Antisemitism is mostly caused by Muslims these days, and we don't want antisemitism, so maybe let's vote for them". Of course the AfD has a lot of antisemitism in its ranks if one looks even a bit more closely, which is why most Jews do not vote for it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:25, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I did mention in my comment that the Jewish population is too small to have that significant an impact on foreign policy. However, white Evangelicals are the single largest voting bloc in the U.S., so they are most definitely a major factor in the unconditionally pro-Israel foreign policy of the Republican party. Notice how Donald Trump has gone after Australia, Canada, Germany, France and so many other traditional U.S. allies, but he has never said a single thing criticising Israel since becoming president; notwithstanding that Malcolm Turnbull and Angela Merkel are both right-wingers as well. The dog2 (talk) 15:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't read through the entirety of these latest comments, but a few quick rejoinders: In 1947, it was the supporters of the Partition Plan (which included France, see the tally here) that voted for the Palestinian state. Those who voted against it were not per se taking a position on whether the Palestinian Arabs should have a state, and in some cases, didn't really give a damn which Arabs ruled the area (and note what the then-Transjordan did with the West Bank and how many U.N. resolutions there were objecting to that - were there any?). Secondly, Orthodox Jews in the U.S. are split - many vote for Republicans and many vote for Democrats. Their position is not at all close to monolithic. Thirdly, many of the anti-Zionists who are not against Zionism for regions of religious solidarity because they are fellow Muslims, and also don't oppose the existence of a Jewish state because they hate Jews, are motivated by the belief that Israel is a kind of colonial entity that displaced native people who were already living there, and this type of thinking became stronger after the 1967 Six-Day War, when Israel occupied the remaining areas set aside for the Arab state in the 1947 Palestine Partition Plan and started settling (colonizing) them with Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Well of course like everything connected to Israel, the very question of whether Jews, Palestinians both, neither or some supgroup(s) of either are "indigenous" to the area is a matter of debate that we should neither get into here nor does it show any sign of being settled soon... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:19, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

 * I agree that this is not the place for that debate. But it's most certainly true that American support has been a very key aspect that has allowed Israel to thrive in such a hostile geopolitical environment, so I think we should mention the U.S. alliance with Israel, but of course in a tone that doesn't indicate approval or disapproval. The dog2 (talk) 21:23, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Except the phase of life or death for the Jewish state happened before the US became a major ally. Maybe Camp David would not have happened without US help/involvement (though it seems Sadat wanted peace pretty badly after 1973), but Israel had shown by late 1967 that it was going to be here to stay, whatever the Arab countries did or did not do. And iirc the 1973 war was such a disaster early on for Israel because Golda Meir decided to not launch a preemptive strike (as had been done 1967) for fear of a negative US reaction - leading to significant early gains for the Arab armies, before the Israelis could reverse the course of the war... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:35, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

 * [Edit conflict] I think the way to add it is to say that Soviet and American support for the 1947 Palestine Partition Plan resolution in the U.N. General Assembly was crucial to its passage, that during the War of Independence, arms from Czechoslovakia were crucial for the Israeli side, and that France was Israel's most important ally and military supplier until 1967 and the U.S. has been Israel's most important ally and military supplier since 1967. And Hobbitschuster, I was explaining reasons for anti-Zionism. I wasn't taking a position on them. I think in understanding European anti-Zionism, it helps to keep in mind all three reasons: Religious solidarity from European Muslims, Jew-hatred, and opposition to anything that smacks of colonialism from Europeans who feel the weight of Europe's colonial history (and even in some cases the injustice of arbitrary boundaries set by European colonial powers in places like the Middle East). Some anti-Zionists are motivated by only one of these things and some by more than one, but I think it's fair to say that all these factors are present within the anti-Zionist movement. And of course there are also a fairly small number of anti-Zionist Jews who oppose the existence of a Jewish state in Israel because they consider it a false messianic state and believe that only God can miraculously reestablish Jewish control over the Land of Israel in the time of the Messiah, whereas any human attempt to do so will only bring disaster to the Jewish people.
 * I notice that the 1956 Suez Crisis is not mentioned in the "History" section. I think it should be, because it was at the insistence of the U.S. and the Soviet Union that Israeli forces withdrew from the Sinai and Gaza to the previous international border without getting any substantial thing in return (the U.N. stationed observers along the border with Sinai but understandably removed them at the first sign of potential trouble in 1967, leaving the Israeli government to decide what to do about the closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and the massing of Egyptian forces in the Sinai). Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Agreed with Hobbischuster's points in the last post. The U.S. helped in 1967, though. And the Yom Kippur War, while indeed a disaster for Israel, also enabled Sadat to adopt the posture that Egyptian honor had been regained through the retaking of a sliver of land on the Sinai, regardless of the fact that any Egyptian claim of victory is highly debatable, and made it easier to agree to a peace deal with Israel. So it's hard to know what might have happened if Israel had instead occupied the African side of the Suez, as they were capable of doing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Speaking of which, would it be accurate to say that Israel's rapid economic development is in large part because of investment from American Jews? Israel is most certainly more developed that virtually any other country in the Middle East. The dog2 (talk) 01:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Israel isn't actually that rich. It's GDP per capita is comparable to the likes of the Czech Republic in PPP terms. A large part of Israel's success can be explained by its immigration rate (immigrants tend to be more willing to take economic risks, which might not pay off individually, but do pay off collectively) and lower corruption (If the highest politicians in Israel are corrupt, there's an investigation and eventually trial. If they are corrupt in certain countries, those who say so are jailed or worse) as well as the relatively functioning democracy. For a case study of whether the latter two factors matter, just compare the economic development of Costa Rica and Nicaragua from 1948 (end of the Costa Rican Civil War) to 1979 (end of the Somoza dynasty in Nicaragua)... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:24, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Israel is also a hotbed of technology and science. Dog, I think you may be overstating the role of American Jews who aren't dual citizens in Israel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * While I will not address any potential reason, this article shows that Jewish people punch way above their population numbers in terms of Nobel prices. And Israel is famously a majority Jewish state. Whether there is any link is for everybody on their own to decide. And again, I am not saying there is any causal relationship nor what the cause is. I am pretty confident an explanation that looks for a "smart Jew gene" is heading down the wrong track, given how genetically similar humans are to other humans and how small the influence of genetics on intelligence seems to be. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

As a side note, one thing that was pretty surprising and dare I say, heartwarming, was that when Trump enacted his Muslim ban, for the most part, the American Jewish community was among the harshest critics of the ban. I was kind of expecting them to be largely supportive of the ban due to the tensions in the Middle East, but although there were exceptions like Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager, most of the Jewish community instead chose to stand in solidarity with the Muslims who were affected by the ban.

Speaking of academic achievement, in U.S., you'll find that for the most part, Jews and East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) outperform the general American population. My hunch is that this is very much due to the culture within these communities, as one thing in common among these communities is the emphasis on studying hard in school and making the necessary sacrifices now so you can enjoy life in the future. Unfortunately, most of the top universities still have discriminatory admissions policies against Asian-Americans, but well, what can you do?

Anyway, back to this article, I guess we can incorporate all the points about the Partition Plan, French support before 1967, and American support since then. Just as a side note, the building of settlements in Palestinian-controlled areas is actually funded in part by American Evangelical Christians, as they want the expulsion of all Muslims from the holy land in order to fulfill a Biblical prophecy. The dog2 (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I vote against including any of this politically charged, sometimes dubiously accurate material in the page. It is not relevant to travel, and there are plenty of other places people can go if they want that. Ar2332 (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Nothing that's not unambiguously accurate should be on the page. Do you consider any of the following inaccurate? (1) Soviet and U.S. support was indispensable for the passage of the 1947 U.N. Partition resolution; (2) Czech weapons were of crucial importance to the Haganah in the War of Independence; (3) France was Israel's most important ally and military supplier following independence, until 1967; (4) Israel participated in a war with Egypt called the 1956 Suez Crisis along with the U.K. and France; Israel's army withdrew from the Sinai and Gaza, which it had occupied in 1956, at the insistence of the Soviets and the U.S.; in exchange, the U.N. posted observers to guarantee the demilitarization of the Sinai and free passage of Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran; (5) at the first sign of danger in 1967 (or maybe it was at the demand of Egypt - you may know, and it would be easy to check this), the U.N. withdrew these observers, leaving Israel to decide what to do about the movement of large numbers of Egyptian forces and planes into the Sinai and a blockade of Eilat through closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping; (6) the U.S. has been Israel's most important ally and military supplier since 1967.

 * If we're going to have any kind of history section (and we already do), I think that highlights that any fair-minded person would agree on should be included, so let's agree on what those highlights are. And as you can see in this thread, some of these highlights are unknown by a large number of people, who have demonstrably false beliefs like the U.S. having been Israel's most important (or even only) ally since independence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:03, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Of course the U.S. is not and never was Israel's only ally. Singapore can to an extent be considered an Israeli ally because Israel was the first country to respond when we needed help to build up our army just after independence. And I won't get into details here because of sensitivities, but Singapore's geopolitical situation in some ways mirrors that of Israel, albeit with neighbours that are not openly hostile, so Singapore's good relationship with Israel continues even today. But regardless, I don't think any reasonable person can deny that the U.S. is Israel's most important ally today. As I have said in another thread, simply mentioning that does not necessarily imply endorsement of or opposition to the U.S. position. It's merely the stating of a fact. The dog2 (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * And speaking of which, I think we should also mention about Israel gaining control of the Golan Heights from Syria and Sinai from Egypt in the 1967 war. And of course, we should also mention that Israel returned Sinai to Egypt when they signed the peace treaty in 1979. The dog2 (talk) 20:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * I must say being surprised by the American Jewish community coming out in support of Muslim Americans in light of the Muslim Ban indicates to me a lack of knowledge of the history of Jewish Americans. There are of course a very large and diverse number of viewpoints among Jewish Americans and there have always been, but whichever movement for the emancipation of an oppressed group of people you could think of historically or currently, Jews have often been among the most ardent supporters and over-represented among it. There is a very simple reason for this. Jews experience antisemitism everywhere outside Israel and a position of geopolitical threat in Israel. Both have times where they are barely perceptible and times when they seem (or are) immediately life threatening, but this combined with very clear mentions in the Bible of how to behave to non-Jews (e.g. "Be nice to foreigners, you yourself were foreigners in Egypt") have made many Jews to see the similarity in struggles like African American Civil Rights, Catholic Emancipation, Women's Rights and many other issues to their own struggles. Now the "Palestinian solidarity" movement is a different case, as - and no honest defender of rights of Palestinians (who would then have some stern words to say about Hamas, Fatah and numerous non-Jewish oppressors of Palestinians) who knows anything about anything can deny that - many who proclaim to be members of it couldn't care less about the actual lives of actual Palestinians and just use their (very real) suffering as a bludgeon to beat Israel over the head with. And I have heard anecdotally of quite a few Jews who were asked very uncomfortable questions and pressured into condemning Israel way more than goyish members of the same groups when they were - grudgingly - admitted into "Palestinian solidarity" groups. On the other hand, of course, a "token Jew" works wonders among the simple-minded to deflect accusations of antisemitism, which is why Ahmadinejad invited Neturei Karta to his Shoah denial conference... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we need to focus on historical events that are 1) relatively uncontroversial, 2) relevant to the traveler.
 * Looking at the current state of the page, this is mostly the case already. In the "Until the middle ages" section, almost every sentence explains a kind of archaeological ruin you are likely to see. In the "Since World War I" section, most sentences are necessary to explain the borders you will cross, or the demographics of the people you will meet. I would actually prefer to delete a few sentences which do not meet those criteria. On the other hand, I would add a description of exactly which territories were captured in 1967, since that is relevant to travelers. But there is no need to specifically mention 1956, since it did not have long term consequences (for Israel) or border changes.
 * In any cases, details of alliances and foreign support are not relevant to the traveler. Ar2332 (talk) 11:20, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think you realize that what you want is for the "History" section of this article to be approached differently from every other article about a country. The philosophy of Wikivoyage has been that travelers should have some basic background on the history and culture of a country, in order not to be entirely ignorant when they arrive. Look at United States of America, Germany, China, South Africa, etc. It's good to connect the "History" section with travel-relevant specifics as much as possible, but I think that your concept of relevance to the traveler is not what's been governing "History" sections, and I would ask you again whether the specifics I mentioned above are unambiguously accurate, because contesting their accuracy is different from debating about the overall nature of "History" sections in Wikivoyage country articles - I think that debate is probably best joined in the existing Wikivoyage talk:Country article template thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any objection regarding the accuracy of your points. Why don't you go ahead and make the changes? I'll probably butcher it if I do it since I don't know the history as well as you do. The dog2 (talk) 02:41, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Merenptah stele
Another user the following comment to "History":
 * In the Fifth Year of Pharaoh Merenptah (roughly 1208 BC) Israel is mentioned on a stele as having been "laid waste" (likely a propaganda exaggeration), which constitutes the first mention of Israel known to history. Incidentally that same year is also the date of an inscription on behalf of the same Pharaoh mentioning the "Sea Peoples" who are often blamed for the virtual collapse of urban and writing society in the eastern Mediterranean of the time, ushering in - among other things - the "Greek Dark Ages" and the collapse of the Hittite Empire.

I replaced this with:
 * The first surviving mention of the name "Israel" is in an inscription by the Egyptian ruler Merenptah (roughly 1208 BC), though this may refer to the nation Israel rather than a geographic area.

My issues with the original comment were, in no particular order: 1) It is much too long in proportion to the other content in the History section - no other pre-modern historical event has more than a sentence or two 2) When the stele mentions "Israel" it is likely referring to the Jewish people not to the geographic area of modern Israel, so this is misleading 3) I think Merenptah's mention of the Sea Peoples refers to their attacks on Egypt, not modern-day Israel, and though modern scholars do seem to think that Philistines were descended from the Sea Peoples, this was just one of the Sea Peoples and just one of the ancient nations in modern-day Israel, and anyway this connection is not spelled out in the comment. For these reasons I replaced the comment with a shorter and more focused one. To resolve the resulting edit war, I am taking the discussion here. Does anyone have thoughts? Ar2332 (talk) 07:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I like reading Hobbitschuster's historical accounts, but I think your edit is reasonable. Destination articles are often not places to hold forth at any length about history, especially when it's a bit of a digression. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Peleshet (who have been pretty consistently identified with the Philistines, one of Israel's biblical enemies) should've been pointed out explicitly, but maybe this is indeed too much detail for this article. And where do you get the idea that the stele mentions a people not a geographic area (and wouldn't both be germane for this article?), after all, the history of Israel cannot be divorced from the history of its people. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:02, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The phrase in question is "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not", "his seed" seemingly referring to a people not a geographical area. Furthermore, the previous lines mention Canaan, Ashkelon, etc - which, if they are territories, overlap the territory we now call "Israel". I don't think that is likely, it would be like a Russian leader saying "We went to war and defeated the US and Texas", even though Texas was once an independent country it's now part of the US so this wouldn't make sense. Ar2332 (talk) 05:29, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The "seed is not" line seems to be something of a standard stencil which is found in many Egyptian inscriptions. Still, there has been debate whether it means "their progeny is eradicated" (which, given how history went on, would be at the very least an exaggeration) or whether it means "their stores of harvested grain were depleted/destroyed" (which would imply a settled society). And judging by some of the rambling speeches I have heard, it is quite common to mention "the same place twice". "We're going to invite all the European partners, we'll invite London and Paris and Madrid and Rome and Berlin, we'll have the English leader there, we'll talk to the Spanish bosses..." is entirely something somebody with a certain tendency to ramble would say. The modern English language might have less of a tendency to such ramblings... And even still, it doesn't matter whether the "Israel" mentioned in the Merenptah stele refers to a geographic or an ethnographic unit, both are important to the history of the modern state of Israel. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

 * I happen to dig Egyptology and can testify that Pharaonic inscriptions are almost always shameless propaganda, and always full of premade "standard stencils". The classic example is Ramses II's description of the battle of Kadesh, which was a draw but is presented as a resounding victory in the Egyptian sources. However, this stele is indeed the first mention ever of "Israel" known to history. I support Hobbitschuster's point, just for the record. Ibaman (talk) 18:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

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Time format: 24 hr or PM/AM?
This issue was raised in 2013 and then it was said that Israel uses 24 hr. Still I see many articles using PM/AM—Jerusalem uses mainly PM/AM for instance.

Could we have an agreement on which we use for Israel? I am in favour of 24 hr.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 11:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I did a Google search, and did not come up with anything definitive, but what discussion I did see supports the contention that the 24-hr clock is standard in writing. Also, the 2013 discussion included a solid statement to that effect by a contributor who identifies him/herself as being from Israel, do that's good enough for me.
 * I've been thinking that we should have a formatting box at the top of the talk page to record these conclusions (time/date and currency formatting) so that we don't have to dig through the archives whenever the question comes up. What do you think? Ground Zero (talk) 15:25, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

 * Sounds reasonable. We could also have an approach like for currencies on a separate page. Would be also a helpful overview apart from the country itself. Cheers Ceever (talk) 07:32, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

I have made a proposal related to this discussion at Wikivoyage_talk:Time_and_date_formats. Comments welcome. Ground Zero (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Israel uses a written format of 24h, but the spoken language is similar to am/pm. So most of us say "eight in the evening", and then write it down as two zero colon zero zero. TaBaZzz (talk) 12:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Same as in Germany, but people have no clue of AM/PM. Ceever (talk) 11:01, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Birthright guidance?
Given how many travelers to Israel are there on a Birthright trip, it might be useful to have some Birthright-specific advice. Sdkb (talk) 17:38, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

 * Sure. Add anything that seems helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Four major monotheistic religions?
How many adherents does the Baha'i faith have, by comparison with Sikhism? Also, isn't it a bit strange to lead with the smallest of those religions in Israel (and in the world)? Here's the passage in question:

The four major monotheistic religions — the Baha'i Faith, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam — all were founded or have strong ties to here, and their holy and historic sites are major destinations for pilgrims and tourists from around the world.

Shall we rephrase? How about this:

The three major Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam [note: or Judaism, Islam and Christianity, if we want to go in order of Israeli population] and another monotheistic religion, the Baha'i faith, all were founded in or have strong ties to this land, and their holy and historic sites are major destinations for pilgrims and tourists from around the world.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * How about "The three major Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as well as the Baha'i faith, were founded..." Ar2332 (talk) 06:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Totally fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Any objections to this proposed edit? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Edited accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Ashkenazim not the majority of Jews in Israel?
I thought they were again after the large-scale immigration from the former Soviet Union. No? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it, I tried to look it up,  but no official source tracks Ashkenazi or Sephardic identity and of the young generation a significant number is "mixed" with one Ashkenazi and one Sephardic parent... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Get in by freighter?
This is mentioned in "Get in" but no info on freight lines that might take passengers. Anybody got any gen on this? You'd surely need advance arrangements, it's not like a black-and-white movie where you amble down the wharf with your duffel bag and hail any likely vessel. But if it is possible, it's especially relevant to Israel which lacks open land routes to Europe. Equally if it's not possible, the negative info is valuable to record. Grahamsands (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I've now stumbled on the page for Freighter travel. Yes, there may be routes that include Israel. Looks like they're seldom available and a cross-reference from the Israel page will suffice. Accordingly the port coordinates aren't needed on this page. The relevant city pages need info on those ports where an international vessel could arrive and do the paperwork: port websites, VHF channels etc. Other marinas are "Do" rather than "Get in". (Later same day:) - that's done. The page for "Ferries in the Med" also needs overhaul but that could wait till Feb, when summer as well as winter sailings should be posted and the whole cycle can be updated in one. Grahamsands (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

"whose center of life in Israel"
What does this mean?

Israel closed its borders to all foreigners and non-citizens except for people whose center of life in Israel.

It's not English to me, but a clear statement of who this includes would be appreciated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:07, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It means "a person that is not Israeli, but lives in Israel". The meaning of this phrasing in to say a resident that is not a citizen... and to be more fexible than the official status of those terms. TaBaZzz (talk) 12:23, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Permanent residents. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Edited accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

covid update
"Israel is in the midst of an extensive vaccination campaign, and is beginning to see a drop in COVID infections and severe cases. Israel exited its third nationwide lockdown, but inbound and outbound flights remain suspended except for special cases. So far, 5,861 Israelis have died of the virus." according to Coronavirus Live: Israel Sees Small Rise in Infection Rate as Economy Reopens (March 7, 2021)

Also see: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:COVID-19_pandemic#Israel’s_vaccine_passport Ottawahitech (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Somehow my recent edits for the COVID-19 top infobox inclusion text broke the template, although I do not happen to see that there is an issue with the wikitext for that update. --Arseny1992 (talk) 22:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Never mind -- Arseny1992 (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Un-confuse me?
The text mentions "the West Bank to the east of the Jordan River". This does not make sense to me. Pashley (talk) 10:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ??? That makes no sense. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe it was garbled and the original authorial intention was "the West Bank with the Jordan River to the East" or "The West Bank to the East" (which it is, in relation to most of 1948 armistice lines Israel) Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

17 Other destinations
There seems to be 17 Other destinations, which violates wv:7+2. Which ones should stay and which should go? -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:34, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Some of these can easily go: 3 of them are inside cities already listed right above ("Old City of Jerusalem", "Old City of Acre", and "Bahá'í Gardens and World Center"), and some are really not top destinations at all, they're just a list of regions (i.e. Jezreel Valley, Judean Desert, Beth Shean Valley, Carmel Range). There's also really no need to list both Belvoir Fortress and Nimrod Fortress. --Buzzy (talk) 21:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Café latté?
The section Ethnic food mentions "café latté" as "the most popular coffee in cafés". Is this an Israeli spelling of caffè latte, just a typo or something else? –LPfi (talk) 08:08, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Protection and reverts
I think this here is jumping the gun and needlessly discouraging potential editors...

It seems to furthermore have been a unilateral action undertaken without prior debate... 2001:A62:1527:7502:B17E:51F2:8DDC:570A 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I haven't been following the edits on this page closely, so I cannot say whether the protection is justified.
 * The answer to why "that word" ("temporary") was there can be found in w:Blue Line (withdrawal line). Whether it needs to be there can be discussed, but reverting a unilateral change in a controversial article is common practice on most wikis: "be brave–revert–discuss".
 * Also the additions are controversial. How much do we want to discuss those issues? Are they neutrally worded? I would say they are not, and that we don't need to have that much text about them.
 * –LPfi (talk) 15:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * WV:Goals and non-goals, WV:Be fair, WV:Be fair: exactly. Furthermore, a ceasefire might start today, let's wait for confirmation. Ibaman (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Capital?
Current text includes:
 * Jerusalem - the capital and largest city of Israel ...

I know Israel considers it their capital & Trump moved the US Embassy there, but many nations still have their embassies in Tel Aviv & presumably consider that to still be the capital. I'd just remove the claim that Jerusalem is the capital, but mentioning the complications might be a better alternative. Pashley (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

 * See Be fair. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, a fact that we recognize per policy, regardless of what individual Wikivoyagers think of it being the capital. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd reword it to "Jerusalem – the de jure capital and largest city of Israel" which is more accurate and falls in line with Be fair. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * De jure or de facto? That depends on whether you're considering Israeli law or U.N. law, but really, who is seriously objecting to even West Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, and if they want it to be an international city not ruled by either Israel or Palestine, as originally envisioned in the 1947 Partition Plan that was accepted by Israel and rejected by all Arab countries and by the representatives of the Palestinian Arabs at the time, who is really taking them seriously? We really shouldn't take on such disputes here. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, period. The dispute as it exists today, the differences between East and West Jerusalem and the enlargement of Greater Jerusalem into areas previously considered parts of the West Bank are topics to put in the "Understand" section of the Jerusalem article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * However, for travellers, the capital is where the central government institutions and the embassies are. The latter is Tel Aviv for most nationalities. –LPfi (talk) 07:55, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What's more important, the embassies or the Knesset? I don't think that's at all clear. I suspect more travelers are interested in the Knesset. But in no case would it make sense to claim that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel; it's just where most of the embassies are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not going to argue about the facts, but I think the role of Tel Aviv needs to be told clearly, close to where Jerusalem is said to be the capital. –LPfi (talk) 09:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's very simple to tell: It's where most of the embassies are. "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but because the United Nations originally envisioned it as part of a Corpus Separatum under international law and due to competing claims by the Palestinians, many countries don't recognize it as such and choose to maintain embassies in and around Tel Aviv." Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The "don't recognise it as such" makes Jerusalem's position as capital an issue. For Israelis there probably is no doubt, but for foreigners there might be. The sentence above doesn't look too suitable for a travel guide, but the essence should be in Understand. I wouldn't want to put anything like that in the Cities list, but I think we could leave out "capital" from the one-liner – Jerusalem being mentioned first implicitly shows we regard it as capital, and most readers would assume that anyway – and I think it is good that we have Tel Aviv as second city. The actual status can be told in suitable Understand sections. –LPfi (talk) 04:51, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The existence and name of Israel are themselves issues, but questions of the legitimacy of reasonably stable facts on the ground are not relevant to a travel guide, except, as you say, in "Understand" sections. We recognize all reasonably stable facts on the ground. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, just as Jammu and Kashmir is a state of India, Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan and Gibraltar is an overseas territory of the UK. As I see it, to seem to dispute that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (or that the Israeli-annexed portion of the Golan Heights is part of Israel) is in violation of Be fair. It also seems perverse to avoid mentioning that it was the ancient capital of Judea and is now the capital of Israel, though it could be added that that status is disputed, etc. Almost everything that's interesting about Jerusalem eventually stems from its status as the ancient capital of the Jews. Why else were mosques built on the Temple Mount, and why else is it sacred to Christians? (Yes, because of Jesus, but why was he in Jerusalem?) Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Sensitive Issues
I deleted this statement that The dog2 added:

 * ...today more than 90% of Israeli Jews are strongly opposed to any compromise with the Palestinians whatsoever.

The dog2 has a long history of adding material to Politics and Sensitive Issues sections based on anecdotal evidence or personal opinion. Wikipedia says:

 * "At the end of October 2023, the two-state solution had the support of 71.9% of Israeli Arabs and 28.6% of Israeli Jews." (ref: Gordon, Anna, 10 November 2023, "What Israelis Think of the War With Hamas", Time magazine)

Ground Zero (talk) 16:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

 * That statement was ridiculous. Thank you for removing it, GZ. Is it time for a formal warning/topic ban given that simple warnings have failed for the last few years? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 08:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ...and for the record, I'm serious about the topic ban (though I won't propose it myself). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 11:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This seems to be another fabrication, like this one, or this one, or this one. I could go on. Anything that The dog2 posts that looks the least bit suspicious should just be reverted. Many editors have warned them, but they keep on doing it. I would support a topic ban. Ground Zero (talk) 12:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Would you mind proposing one on User ban nominations? I would, but I fear me doing so may get us nowhere. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 12:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would prefer to wait for others to weigh in before proceeding. If other editors don't see a problem with this repeated behaviour, there is not much we can do but revert, revert, revert. Ground Zero (talk) 12:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's understandable – it's annoying, but also a shame it even got to this point. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 13:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support: the same, the same, the same, I'm always thinking about this issue, however, preoccupied that maybe I shouldn't be so grumpy and killjoy about other community members. But I must mention, every time a new "don't confuse Volodymyr and Vladimir, write Kyiv not Kiev, Odesa not Odessa, because of the utter sensivity about this linguistic topic" pops up on any given Ukranian/Russian/Crimean place's article, I go into "oh no, not again" mode. Glad to be reassured I'm not alone in this feeling. Ibaman (talk) 13:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The pork ban edit was misphrased but wouldn't by itself be a reason for a topic ban. I'd support one, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was trying to look up this poll: . I didn't know this discussion has started. But with regards to the war in Gaza, 94% of Israeli Jews say that the IDF's actions are either appropriate or have not gone far enough according to this poll. The dog2 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The article you link says "A January survey found that 94 percent of Jewish Israelis said the force being used against Gaza was appropriate or even insufficient." That is obviously not the same as saying they "are strongly opposed to any compromise with the Palestinians whatsoever." The linked poll appears to show that only 40% of Israeli Jews (i.e. much less than 90%) are strongly opposed to "negotiations for peace between Israel and the Palestinian Authority". I support a topic ban, this stuff has gone on for way too long. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it's time that we take it to WV:UBN. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Israel


text:
Talk:Israeli Stamp Stigma

This should be, and is, discussed in the Israel article. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:35, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Israeli Stamp Stigma


text:
Talk:Israel National Trail

It's unusual that we get this much text in one edit, but I'm not finding any of the tell-tale signs that this is copied from somewhere else. Any ideas? Also, we really need some work getting this into shape as an itinerary. --(WT-en) Evan 14:09, 8 December 2006 (EST)

"How much water should one carry?

Until one gets to Arad traveling southward (assuming no abnormally hot conditions), five liters per person per day should be enough "

that's a lot of water. i traveled the trail 2 years ago, the formal recomendation (of the SPNY) is to carry 3 litters of water and to fill them up to the max on every good water source (shops, settlements and nightcamps). 5 liters are too much.

What kind of maps and books are there? section
I have a problem with this section and believe it should be deleted. Apart from the grotesque frontlinked format, it seems to have been set up for advertising purposes. OK to delete? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:55, 6 March 2010 (EST)

 * Reading on, the whole article seems to be full of inapproprtiate external links. Needs a clean up as well as the obvious product advertising being deleted. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:04, 7 March 2010 (EST)

This article needs a lot of work
It feels like it might have a lot of copypasta, and the format is non-Wikivoyage. User:Tamuz, if you have the time, please look at this. But since he probably doesn't have the time, User: ויקיג'אנקי, would you be able to help? User:Buzzy? Anyone else? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

 * I've looked at it before. This article is virtually empty, it just has a few tips and links. The Hebrew page is no better at the moment. This is a big subject and will take a LOT of work to bring it to a Guide status. I'll try to keep it in my mind and maybe make some additions here and there, but as you anticipated, I probably won't have the time to make large contributions. Tamuz (talk) 13:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Israel National Trail