text:
Talk:Yeongjong Island

Islands
Yeongjong-do, Yongyu-do and the reclaimed land in between are now all the same island -- Yeongjong Island. Insisting otherwise is pointless hair splitting. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:16, 29 December 2008 (EST)

The residents on Yongyudo would strongly disagree, as do I. The airport has never been claimed by either island. The airport's location is actually considered a district. You will not find Yeonjeong-do on its address. People only refer to the airport as being part of Yeonjongdo because it's bigger than Yongyudo. That doesn't mean Yongyudo is gone. Again, you are wrong about the facts.(WT-en) Paula 19:52, 29 December 2008 (EST)

 * You yourself wrote that "Although it belongs to neither island locals will refer to Yeongjeong Island when people ask where the airport is". The IFEZ site  talks about "Yeongjong Area", with "Yeongjong Sky City" built on what was Yongyu, and even wikipedia:Yongyu-do redirects to Yeongjong Island.

Nowhere in that link does it say Yeongjeong Sky City was built on what was anything.(WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * But the point is, this is totally pointless hairsplitting. Visitors cross over the bridge, they come to one island, the entire island is a part of

Jung-gu, and this one island is consistently referred to as Yeongjong. The fact that it was many islands is now only history. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:32, 30 December 2008 (EST)

 * Just because the island isn't referred to as often doesn't mean it's not there Patokal! And like I said, they only refer to it cuz it's BIGGER...and it is the direction in which Seoulites will go to when they drive to the airport and when people are leaving the airport. Naturally, people will refer it to it that way. Again you use Wikipedia as a main reference. Well, here's your Wikipedia reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incheon_International_Airport. It is refered to as two islands united by the airport. Better yet talk to the PR department of the airport @ http://www.airport.kr/iiacms/pageWork.iia?_scode=C1207010101&fake=1231143381041. It isn't a matter of history if people want to locate the friggin airport Patokal.(WT-en) Paula 04:01, 5 January 2009 (EST)

And apparently it only seems pointless hairsplitting when someone else corrects your mistakes.(WT-en) Paula 04:01, 5 January 2009 (EST)

 * First, why are you reverting the additions I made about the airport's Terminal/Concourse split and the new shuttle train, or do you have an objection to that as well?

Why else? Your information is faulty. There are no restaurants on the 3rd floor and the some other facilities have been removed or moved around. I'm not putting a link cuz it's not been updated on their site yet.

 * WTF? The 3rd floor is the floor where the gates are, and it's full of restaurants.     ... (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 6 January 2009 (EST)

 * Outdated information...like I said. (WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * Huh? Are you seriously telling me that they've stripped out all the food courts, Burger Kings etc that used to line the path to the gates on the 3rd floor, and which are listed in the site above?  Where did they go then!? (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:38, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * Second, the article already says "The airport sits on a perfectly square-shaped bulge formed largely from reclaimed land, joining together the "real" islands of Yeongjong and Yongyu." What's wrong with this?

Originally it did not say that. So, I just put it in a more succinct manner. If you don't want your work to edited, you shouldn't be posting it in the first place, remember?

 * That's right, I'm editing the article in an attempt to make you happy. So, what's wrong with that? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 6 January 2009 (EST)

WTF? If that's what you're trying to make me 'happy' you're failing miserably. That's what's wrong. (WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * Third, the Korean Wikipedia shows Yeongjong-do as covering the entire area of the three former islands: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%98%81%EC%A2%85%EB%8F%84

Then they're the only ones. http://english.incheon.go.kr/ *press Island Tour* They even put it out as a tourist attraction.(WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * That link says nothing at all about Yeongjongdo. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 6 January 2009 (EST)

Very Good. It's talking about Yongyu! You know, the island that's not supposed to exist according to you(WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * And fourth, the airport link you gave says nothing at all about any islands as far as I can see. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:48, 5 January 2009 (EST)

It says exactly what I did. The airport connects the TWO islands. (WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * Can you give me a quote or check the link? Because I don't see anything about any islands on that page. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 6 January 2009 (EST)

There's the number to the PR centre. Checking with a real person might help.(WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

Listen, if you think it's so pointless why do you belabour the point? All the recognized official reps of Korea, Incheon, the airport that discuss the airport say the same thing. I don't feel the need to repeat myself again so if you wanna continue making this a pissing contest, fine but I'm sticking with the corrections. Anything more I have to say you can read on your page (WT-en) Paula 00:20, 6 January 2009 (EST)

 * Because your "corrections" are deleting valid info. I've changed the wording of the article half a dozen times in an attempt to address your concerns, but you're just hitting "undo", instead of trying to work out a compromise. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 6 January 2009 (EST)

What?!!! If you bother looking at the history you'll see I've tried to change my words several times. You're just undoing my edits all the time and argueing each point. And you're only rewording a couple of paragraphs. Everything else is the same. So, yeah. I'm hitting "undo."(WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * I know little about this, but referring to the airport as being between two islands, when it clearly is not, makes no sense to me and regardless of any factual dispute, is simply irrelevant for travelers. Beyond that I can't comment on the disputed edits for lack of knowledge. I also barely am able to follow this discussion because of apparently unsigned comments, non-uniform indenting, etc. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:35, 6 January 2009 (EST)

Once and for all, here's a link you might find interesting. (WT-en) Paula 19:46, 22 January 2009 (EST)

 * I know nothing about this prior to trying to make sense of the above dispute, but Paula, looking at the link you just provided, in light grey type, at the very top, it says "Yeongjongdo island map"... so it seems to be calling the entirety of the new combined island by that name, no? Also on Wikipedia, the Yongyu Island article redirects to Yeongjong now, so perhaps that's the consensus over there too? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 21:24, 22 January 2009 (EST)

What's the Deal?
(swept in from the Pub by jpatokal)

Ok. I've already tried reaching one of the Systems Operator about this but apparently he is not active. I am having an issue with the admins, one in particular. It's a looong story. But the summary is I try to keep editing pages with incorrect info and it keeps being reverted by the original author who happens in these cases to be a bureaucrat. I've asked for a little counselling from Evan but apparently he isn't around anymore. My fear is the admins are finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules. Perhaps it is I who am not clear about it but the message I'm getting is stating facts about a place are not important to the traveller.

If you want to read more about this I will post the letter I sent to Evan up on my talk page. If anyone's got some constructive advice and isn't worried about towing the company line then please share. I warn you though it's a bit of a book(WT-en) Paula 01:00, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * Can you elaborate on your problem? Where? (WT-en) AHeneen 01:09, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * I do believe Paula has a problem with me, and she's referring to the utterly bizarre saga of Talk:Yeongjong Island (plus possibly a few previous headbuttings on Talk:Dokdo). I've said all I have to say about this, so now I'll shut up and let y'all have your turn. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

'''Jani: We do not know each other. I am not taking this personally. I believe you are this way with everyone. I have a problem with your lack of compromise and your tone. When you are "helping" me, it reads like you are scolding me for f.....g up and your way is the only way. I and I'm thinking most have no agenda when contributing to articles. I at least am doing this simply to share accurate and helpful information on an area I am very familiar with. I simply like the idea of Wikivoyage. Therefore I don't appreciate being spoken to like a wayward child or an incompetent employee when we are all doing this basically for the fun of it. Understandable?'''

 * I think a number of admins have been observing this particular incident from afar. I personally know nothing about the island in question and haven't gotten involved, but one suggestion I might offer is to refrain from questioning motives and character of other editors as it clouds the issue.  Asking for someone who "isn't worried about towing the company line" and accusing admins of "finding it difficult to regulate themselves or abiding by their own rules" is neither relevant nor helpful to resolving any issues you might have with the content of an article.  In addition, please understand that the goal is consensus, which means that all sides need to make a good faith effort to at least consider the point of view of those who disagree with them. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:14, 5 February 2009 (EST)

'''Ryan: Excuse me, but I could not disagree more with the first point. When there are principles stated and people given special privileges/responsibilities to uphold them then there is an expectation they will. When a little power is involved among a smaller group of people, there is always a risk of abuse and "fat-head syndrome." I understand it is not helpful to criticise motives when something happens once in a while. But when it is a similar situation that occurs consistently over a lengthy period of time then it is never wrong to question why everyone who belongs to that group happen to have the exact same perspective.'''

'''The whole point of this site is so many people from all over can contribute to it. Not one or a few. If that was the goal then this site would be one of many already out there. Therefore with more voices cum more perspectives. Yes, consensus is good. I agree. But how do we reach consensus? By bullying? By having everyone think the same way? No. It's by using reason, doing some research on the facts and compromising.'''

 * Evan is not active here for the foreseeable future, besides Evan and Jptokal have been working together pretty closely for a number of years, so I doubt you would find much sympathy on that front, in any case, the way this place works, is if you think an admin is crossing a line, you take it up with one of the other active admins. (you can see a list here). Also, while I know Jptokal's direct style can often leave quite a bit to be desired, you often come across as overly aggressive yourself, which isn't exactly helping things, least of all if you are crying out for backup. Also in this case, reverting to an "edit war" is just about the worst thing you can do in these circumstances.

 * Now regarding the issue at hand, I think you might have misinterpreted the motives behind the edits, which I suspect would be 1) The traveller comes first 2) We want as simple a structure as possible. Now I've never been north of Gyeongju, and hence not an expert on anything Seoul, but it seems like the only ones that would really be hurt and sad we would call this amalgamated island Yeongjong, would be locals on Yongyu, and they hardly need a travel guide. most maps I could find, identify it as one island anyway (lest one from where the airport was still under construction): [2], [3], [4], [5]. Which leads be to point 2, the amount of content in the guide hardly merits a split. If this is really something you'd loose sleep over, i would suggest either that you fill in so much useful content for Yeongyu, that it make sense to split the article, or that we discuss a rename the whole shabang to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu island", but from my light research on the subject, it does seem pointless as most places refer to the airport as being on Yeongjong, wikipedia even writes "The previously separate Yongyu, Sammok, and Sinbul Islands have been joined to Yeongjong Island by an area of reclaimed land". --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:13, 23 January 2009 (EST)

 * Ha, Ha. You'd be laughing too if you saw my letter to Evan. What you have written is exactly what I had assumed and predicted the problems are with Wikivoyage. You have confirmed to me that the "Old Boys Club" mentality is as pervasive as I feared it was. At least you freely admit the obvious bias that exists within the admins and which you demonstrate yourself. So, you will forgive me if I don't consider your criticism of what you perceive to be my "overly aggressive" ways as credible. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * It is not a "cry...for backup" as you put it that I am looking for, it is the observance to the original ideals, objectivity, fairness and the freedom to make legitamite edits, of the site that I was demanding. And when I did not receive that from the people I thought most committed to those principles I was taken aback and responded concurrently.Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * By the way, I was not the one who had asked for the page to be blocked. I am always willing to compromise and have in the past. And if Evan is not active why has he not been removed on the active list?Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * No.1: If the traveller comes first shouldn't we be giving them accurate information? Does that not count as being necessary? It's not about, "my pony is prettier than your pony." It's about do these things exist or not. Is this information necessary or not? I don't know about you. I REALLY don't know about you but that's what I understand as the "traveller coming first" to mean. If the facts are not important and you refuse to see them and what you're really interested in is creating your own terms for places and inventing things because it's easier or follows some arbitrary guideline beknownst only to you and your band of bureacrats then PLEASE, PLEASE tell me now. I will be happy to let you have your way so you can play with yourselves. But if you genuinely are interested in accepting accurate information that is helpful to anyone visiting these places then believe you me, my "aggression" will subside.

 * No.2: Have you actually seen my edits? You would be hard pressed to see a simpler structure in some of them. I would be hurt. Every Korean local I have explained this bizarre argument I'm having with y'all would be hurt. And most importantly, anyone trying to get to the beaches and markets on Yongyu Island would be hurt. The official Incheon tourist map lists it as an island [6], Wikipedia describes the map as Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island [7], the description on the link YOU listed also describes it as Yeongjong and Yongyu Island [8], the airport PR Centre confirms that distinction as well. I mean WTF? Even information you and Jani have listed say exactly what I'm saying. I mean which part is difficult to understand? Every official body acknowledges this. There are 2 islands and the airport is on reclaimed land between them. That's it. Paula 00:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)(WT-en) Paula 00:48, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * Hmmm maybe we have a clash of cultures here, but I was actually trying to mediate, because I feel that if we could reconcile our differences, and come to a mutual understanding, you have the potential to become a good contributor, and hence I was not trying to "gang up", and being active around here for less than year, I hardly think I'd count among any "Old Boys club". Jani suggested that most travellers consider this one island, and I provided some links to maps and wikipedia suggesting he was not alone with this view - when you're trying to work out a compromise, the first thing you should do is trying to appreciate the reverse view. Next I suggested a possible compromise renaming the article to "Yeongjong-Yeongyu islands", this seem reasonable to me, as it is indisputably now one island physically, and travellers arrive smack in the middle of the joint entity, hence I suspect anyone not familiar with Korea, would search information about the "island" he has landed on, unaware that this used to be two islands. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 02:41, 5 February 2009 (EST)

'''Sertmann: Clash of cultures. How so? I appreciate you trying to explain your message. I believe I have addressed our correspondence in the message above. However, I should point this out for future reference when someone is complaining of being "ganging uped on" it is unnecessary to state that opinion as also being your own.'''

'''For the latter point, I also think it is reasonable to use both names for the article. I have never disputed it is physically one island. What is being disputed is whether that physically one island should rightfully be referred to as Yeonjongdo. It should be noted that Coney Island and Long Island in New York are also physically one big island. They too were formerly separate islands that were then stuck together by reclaimed land. And although they are part of New York they are by no means one big Coney Island. I knew watching that Britney Murphy movie would come in handy one of these days.'''

 * There is no "old boys' club" here-- most of us have never met each other, and we certainly do not always agree with each other. I don't know much about this particular case but it seems to me that 1) they are now physically one island, regardless of whether part of it is artificial or not, and therefore 2) even if locals still refer to them as separate islands, what is really meant is that they are still distinct, even though have become districts of what is now the same island, and 3) there is not enough information present to warrant splitting this into two articles. I might suggest making it clear in the intro that there are two basic districts here, and I wouldn't mind if the listings told which part they were in as part of the address/directions. Certainly no one is trying to quash listings on the Yongyu side. Sertmann's suggestion may have some merit, although I might suggest leaving "islands" out of the title and just call it "Yeongjong-Yeongyu" to avoid misrepresentation. Even if kept at simply "Yeongjong", I think the "island" part should probably be dropped from the title, since it includes things not on the Yeongjong side-- it's one thing to redirect a neighboring district, admitting that we have done so, but quite another to say that Yeongjong is now the name of the whole she-bang when that may not be quite true. (WT-en) Texugo 06:58, 5 February 2009 (EST)

'''Tuxego: "There is no 'old boys' club' here." Says you, old boy;) Latter part sounds reasonable except for the leaving out the island part.'''

 * But they are not distinct in any meaningful sense: once you cross the bridge from the mainland, you're on one island, period, and the Korean National Tourism Organization (how much more authoritative can you get?) labels the whole island "Yeongjongdo" . (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:23, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Jani: Thought you said you'd shut up.

 * I lied. Now, what do you have to say about the KNTO links above? (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

 * Surprise, surprise. I have this to say: . It's called different information from the same source. HAH!(WT-en) Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)

 * If both names are used locally, however, wouldn't it make sense to include them both? (WT-en) LtPowers 08:59, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * Both names are used in the 'Understand' section (though, I'm not sure why 'real' is included). Why not just move the text in the understand section into the lead (since it includes references to both the airport as well as the beaches - useful stuff from the travelers point of view). That way, both names are included and the reader gets a succinct description of the place. --(WT-en) Wandering 10:53, 5 February 2009 (EST)

 * Above all, please assume good faith. When an issue starts to get you upset, it's a good idea to take a step back, and remember that the way some geographic location is described on some travel wiki is not ultimately that big of a deal. Personally, I don't think you are correct on this matter (this looks pretty clearly like one island to me), but more importantly, this dispute is simply not relevant for travelers, and I think we would all be better served by trying to add travel content (where to go, what to see, etc.) than continuing this dispute.   --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:28, 5 February 2009 (EST)

'''Y'all: Hmmm. Maybe I should've put this here a lot sooner. Good to see reasonable differing solutions. I've taken in all that's been written, will do some editing and see what happens. Thank you much and peace.'''(WT-en) Paula 03:53, 6 February 2009 (EST)

 * I suggest that, instead of editing the page, you list your present concerns with the current content of the article on the Talk page, and we get a third party to change the wording. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)

 * Nice try Patakaillo. I think "my concerns" have been more than sufficiently outlined on this page, the Yeongjong do page and my own page. I offer that a third party review the edits I do and if again there is more disagreement then we cross that bridge when we get to it. (WT-en) Paula 03:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)

What would y'all think if I title the article Incheon International Airport and describe its location and surroundings in the subsequent headings? I think it would make more sense to put the focus on the airport itself instead of the islands which would take care of the whole debate.(WT-en) Paula 00:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)

 * I think that would be misleading, because unlike (eg) Kansai or Chubu airports, there is more on the island(s) than just the airport. (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:53, 10 February 2009 (EST)

 * THIRD PARTY please!(WT-en) Paula 03:29, 11 February 2009 (EST)

 * Is there anything else of significant interest on the island than the airport? If there are points of interest then I would stick to the islands name because i would search for the island name instead of the airport. Maybe it would be good to have some add-on like if there are a golf course, spa, posh temple etc. to pass the time while on transit. This would interest me. (WT-en) jan 16:21, 11 February 2009 (EST)

 * (ec) It is kind of hard for a third party to suggest something, but let me try. It seems that there is stuff to do on the island independently of the airport (ironically, the stuff to do appears to be on Yongyu Island!) suggesting that, for Koreans anyway, the island(s) may be a destination independent of the airport. If that is the case, I suggest leaving it as is, popping the reference to Yongyu and its beaches into the lead (presumably, the Koreans who visit only the beaches will distinguish between the two islands), and leaving it at that. Incheon International Airport as well as Yongyu Island can then redirect to this article. But, I don't know enough (nothing is a better word) to know if this is wise or accurate so this is just a suggestion. --(WT-en) Wandering 16:22, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Sigh — Paula just went ahead and moved the article to Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island, without any discussion. I agree with User:(WT-en) Wandering that including "Yongyu Island" in the lead is OK, but I see no reason to saddle the article with such a verbose name. → Talk:Yeongjong Island (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)

Naming
Here we go again...

I'm OK with stating "Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island" in the lead, but I don't see any reason to saddle this article with such a long name. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:14, 24 February 2009 (EST)

 * From someone who has been following this dispute from afar: until any consensus is reached the article should not be renamed. "Consensus" does not mean unanimity, but based on discussions on this page and in the Pub it seems that most people are ambivalent at best to a rename, with no agreement at all about what a better name would be.  Personally, based on a very limited understanding of the area, looking at a map, and referring to Wikipedia I'd suggest it should keep its current name, although if it's important then a bit more history about how the area was once two islands could be added to the "Understand" section. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 09:57, 24 February 2009 (EST)

 * The relevant policy here is Project:Consensus. If there is a disagreement, the default position is to leave the article as is until an agreement is reached. If no agreement has been reached, the article should remain as it was before the controversy began. A new consensus on how to handle this issue has most certainly not been reached, so renaming the article is at this time inappropriate.

 * For what it's worth, I still don't understand why it would be so important to insist that there are two islands being covered in this article, when my traveler's eye sees only one on the map. Insofar as it is relevant, the two-island history should, I think, be covered in the understand section. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:12, 24 February 2009 (EST)

 * The reason it's important is because most of the tourist attractions actually belong to Yongyu island. It would be kind of tough to explain where the area is without explaining its relationship to Yeongjong Island. And once travellers get there, this will help them understand why locals refer to that area as Yongyu and not Yeongjeong. I guess I don't get why this is difficult to grasp for some. These names were given to these places for a reason. They are meant to be differentiated.
 * Not that it would actually happen but how do you know when consensus has been reached?(WT-en) Paula 03:53, 5 March 2009 (EST)

 * I don't see why this can't simply be explained in the understand section; the name should be as simple as possible, in my view. And not that I expect consensus to ever occur on this article... ;) But the general rule of thumb is that everyone has agreed upon something. That or an overwhelming majority of people have agreed. Or, I suppose, if one side of the disagreement is insisting on something that is contrary to Wikivoyage policy, which is not the case here.  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:58, 5 March 2009 (EST)

Yeongjong Airport
Paula, why did you remove the comment "(landside)" from the facilities in B1F that are not accessible without going through immigration? And why do you keep deleting all mention of the fast food restaurants in 3F? (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:46, 4 March 2009 (EST)

 * Jani, there are NO restaurants there. I was there recently and made a point to check it out myself. Access can be gotten from elevators on the 3rd floor but there are no actual restaurants on that floor.
 * Thought that (landslide) was some sort of typo.
 * My turn: why do you keep changing the intro? It had all the info necessary, succint and useful to the traveler.And it was written as per the discussion on the Pub. What's your excuse now?
 * I rewrote the intro because your English is not very good. (For example, saying "the two islands merged as one" implies that the islands themselves made the decision to move together.)  Do you have any factual issues with my rewording? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:43, 5 March 2009 (EST)

 * Again, information on the homepage has not been updated. They are in the midst of changing the information. From now on, if I have already addressed a specific issue more than once, I will not repeat it. Look to previous discussions on this page. (WT-en) Paula 02:38, 5 March 2009 (EST)

 * Did you take any pictures? That may help this situation. I feel like you guys are about to get in a fist fight over a burger king (or lack thereof). their fries aren't that good – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:49, 5 March 2009 (EST)

 * Buddy, we're in a perpetual metaphorical fist fight it seems. Pictures? Of what? There are no restaurants on that floor. What am I supposed to take pics of? Unless you are addressing Jani? Which would be a refreshing change. So, yeah. Get pics Jani.(WT-en) Paula 02:59, 5 March 2009 (EST)

 * The official airport website and official airport map, which are up to date as of at least June 2008 since they include the concourse/terminal split, indicate that the following fast food restaurants exist in the 3F Departures "Duty-Free" (airside) area: Subway, Delisky (x2), Quiznos, Bob & T, Burger King, Cafe Amoje. In addition, the 3F Departures area contains Vita Via (x2), Food Capital (x2) and Food Square food courts, plus 16 cafes, plus 5 bakeries and donut shops.  Burger King's own site also lists the following outlet: 인천 중구 운서동 2172-1 여객터미널 3층(Air Side).  Here's even a Flickr picture dated Nov 2008 showing Food Capital under consturction and a map of food outlets around 3F Departures.  Now, should I believe a) all of the above, or b) your claim that every single one of these is now magically gone? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:43, 5 March 2009 (EST)

Yeongjong and Yongyu
moved from pub:

Argh. I need help with screw up. Trying to rename the page but for some reason it went to the mispelled one and redirected the correct page to it. Now I can't put the article under the correct heading. Can someone delete Yeongjong Island and Yongyu Island? There's nothing there. Thanx.(WT-en) Paula 03:16, 24 February 2009 (EST)

title: Talk:Yeongjong Island


text:
Talk:Yeongnam alps

When I created the title for the page I didn't realise I couldn't change it later. I'd like it to be Gaijisan National Park (Yeongnam Alps). (WT-en) Gaminx 23:09, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Yeongnam alps


text:
Talk:Yeongwol

External link
might be something to make a 'do' outta (WT-en) Majnoona 20:27, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)
 * Yeongwol-gun tour information

title: Talk:Yeongwol


text:
Talk:Yerevan

Museum of Railway Transport of Armenia
The recently edited entry in Openstreetmaps shows different opening times (Mo-Fr 10:00-17:00). Can anybody verify the times on the website? (I cannot read the armenian text.) Thanks! --77.182.8.11 15:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * It's in Russian. And it doesn't say anything about working hours. Sorry --Kiaora (talk) 16:09, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yerevan


text:
Talk:Yilan County

Removed "Journey East" link
Removed the following text: "Journey East [1] - a travel & lifestyle magazine for northern Taiwan, with a special focus on Yilan County. Has good maps of Yilan County, Yilan City, Luodong and Jiaoxi - bilingual. --url appears to be inactive". The following link does not work: http://www.journeyeast.url.tw/ I have never heard of this magazine, so it may be old information. (WT-en) Btrejos 06:16, 6 January 2011 (EST)

Moving from Northern to Eastern Taiwan
The Wikipedia article defines Yilan county to be on the "Northeastern Taiwan" as there is no administrative regions in Taiwan (the country is directly divided in counties). From the Wikivoyage point of view I think Yilan is in Eastern Taiwan and not Northern Taiwan. Locals describes Yilan on the "east coast". And it is also clear when you see the compared to the. For these reasons I decide to plunge and do all the necessary adjustments hoping that you'll agree. Freayd (talk) 03:30, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

 * As a non-expert, I could see it being described as in northeastern Taiwan or on the east coast, but not "on the east north coast", which is what was in the article until I just changed that to "northeast coast". I don't care if it's described as "the northern part of the east coast" or just "the east coast" or "north coast" but "east north" is not a word order we use in English. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Order of cities
The normal order is: capital city first, then all others in alphabetical order. Is Yilan the capital or county seat of Yilan County? If so, it should go first and all other cities should be alphabetized. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:15, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yilan County


text:
Talk:Yizhou

Comments
What am I doing wrong here? I typed inserted the tag: isin: Guangxi

But I'm only getting:

Guangxi : Yizhou

Not

Asia: China: Guangxi: Yizhou

Thanks

--(WT-en) David Straub 03:26, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Due to a bug, you have to put the isIn tag before the outline/usable/guide tag or it won't work right. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:33, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

Shall we merge Yizhou with Hechi?
Yizhou is an administrative division of the prefecture-level city of Hechi. It used to be a county-level city named Yizhou City but in 2016-2017, the government of Hechi moved from Jinchengjiang District to Yizhou (a distance of about 70 km) and Yizhou was officially renamed Yizhou District. Effectively, this means that Yizhou is now one of the core administrative divisions of Hechi (whereas previously it may have been more peripheral). Should we therefore merge the Hechi article with the Yizhou article?

The article for Hechi clearly overlaps with the Yizhou article, as it lists at least one attraction in Yizhou. It even uses a banner showing a building in Yizhou and the banner looks very similar to the Yizhou banner. STW932 (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yizhou


text:
Talk:Yogyakarta

I feel that I have to add Borobudur and Prambanan to the See section as these two attractions are Yogyakarta icon, and really close to Yogyakarta. To go to these places, probably it will took less than 1 hour trip.

I'm not sure this whill conform the Wikivoyage guidelines though.

 * By Wikivoyage guidelines they belong in and are listed under Get out, which is for nearby places of interest. I think it's OK to mention & link to them under Understand though. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:53, 31 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Need more content?
Is there anything I can do to improve this article? I'd love to help ;)

 * You're doing a great job -- but there's always room for more! Some pictures would be nice, exact addresses of sights and restaurants, more details for prices of things (how much does an andong ride or a plate of gudeg cost?), and if you get really bored then draw a map! (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:07, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * I've reaarranged few elements a bit to make this article looks less like a catalog. I also added few bits of infoormation. Still needs lots of work though. Let see if I can add a map tommorow. (WT-en) Hermansaksono

 * This article is becoming really, really good! I've nominated it for Destination of the Month.  The two more things missing are some pictures of the Kraton and adding the hotels/restaurants/sights into the map.  Could you also upload the original SVG of the map? (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:10, 4 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * Great! I'll try adding more legends on the map. I have problem obtaining a good Kraton picture though. (WT-en) Hermansaksono 00:16, 5 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * Hve you tried a Creative Commons images like Flickr? (WT-en) Majnoona 12:50, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * I have digged flickr for Yogyakarta iamges, but I didn't manage to find anything useful. I do find one good picture, I have contacted the artist for his/her permission, but he/she hasn't replied back. :) (WT-en) Hermansaksono 19:44, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

Museum? Hot or Not?
I'd like to elaborate a little on the Museum section, but I have a big dilema:

Yogyakarta do have several museums, but personally I don't find those museums really special (this is a personal opinion). Its worth the visit if you stayed in Yogya for 1-2 months, or more, but if you are going to spend 2-4 days in Yogya, those museum are not worth the visit (WT-en) Hermansaksono 10:05, 10 Feb 2006 (EST).
 * If I were you, I would go ahead and list them and give your personal opinion. That type of information is of value to the traveler so they don't waste their time, but also it provides the listing so if someone is looking for a certain type museum, the information will be there. If others disagree, then they can make changes, but it is likely others will agree with your observations. -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 10:00, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * Actually, we like to avoid negative reviews and anything first person (ie "my opinion"). But that said, it still might be worth listing them for museum fans, but mention that the are small or have a small collection or what ever elseit is tat makes it unspecial to you... hope this helps!(WT-en) Majnoona 11:49, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

Gabah Resto
The following:
 * Some visitors have reported that it's name Gabah Resto seems to be a play of the words " Gay Bar".

I don't think this bit is worth mentioning. I think its ok to mention GLBT places, but telling the origin of restaurant's name (from uncited source), is irrelevent. Beside, Gabah doesn't rhyme with Gay bar. 203.91.132.20 05:53, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Negative review
''I've removed the following per our Project:Avoid negative reviews. We should stick with places we want people to go to, unless it fits into one of the exceptions. Thanks'' (WT-en) Maj 13:09, 16 August 2006 (EDT)

 * Ibis Malioboro, Jl. Malioboro 52-58, Yogyakarta. Central location, somewhat grotty bathrooms, and grottier collars on reception staff uniforms.

 * I've put it back in. There aren't that many hotels listed, and Ibis is usually a pretty reliable midrange chain. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:33, 23 August 2006 (EDT)

Hamengkubuwono IX
This was added as its own article: ''You can go see the grave of Sultan Hamengkubowono IX, which is situated in a shrine inside the Capital Building of Yogyakarta. This unique form of worship of a leader who has died is still practiced devoutely by the people of Yogyakarta. The reason being that this leader stood for everything that the people of Yogyakarta believe in and his legacy will go down in history. In 1856 Sultan Hamengkubuwono IX was proclaimed the greates leader Yogyakarta has ever had, which is why it was decided to place his body inside the building that represents his cities beliefs.''

However, Hamengkubuwono IX died in 1988, not 1856, and is buried in Imogiri, not "the Capital Building" (where?). (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:44, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

More Dos?
Yogyakarta is more a passive tourist destination. I can come up with many things to see, but cant come up with things to do. Anyone? (WT-en) hermansaksono 23:04, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Yogyes
i'm sorry, but I dont think a link to Yogyes.com does not deserve a place at the top of this article and next to the first word. 23:19, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Why not? Give a reasonable and objective explanation.
 * Yogyes is not the official website for Yogyakarta. Its an ad funded travel guide website aimed specific for Yogyakarta. Sure it deserve some merit, but really it doesnt belong at the top of the page. We can move it to the externeal links section. Actually, it used to be on the external links section but the admin removed it. (WT-en) hermansaksono 09:40, 2 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Official or unofficial, ad funded or tax funded (or even donation funded), they didn't change the fact that yogyes.com has vast useful information about Yogyakarta tourism. (Fine, let's change it to i-mobilecity.com. LOL)
 * You made my point. Who deserve to be linked at the beginning at the page? ;) Please read the guideline on external linking. External link to a non-primary source is basically a no-no.(WT-en) hermansaksono 13:32, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Per External_links, it should be the official website. Veracious (talk) 06:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This is the name for a user from the days of Wikitravel. They won't get the ping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Star Renomination?
I saw that this article was nominated for star status, and was rejected for several reasons. Most of the criticism has been fixed and I was wondering if there are anything else to be improved to have Yogyaakrta renominated?

Thanks (WT-en) hermansaksono 00:22, 21 September 2007 (EDT)

 * On a very quick skim, I noted that there are a few eat (and maybe sleep) listings that lacked pricing information. Also, I'm pretty sure that we would require either a full address, or directions (which should appear in italics within parentheses) for all listings—we're not quite there yet. This is a fantastic article, and I think that it could be made into a star fairly quickly. But lets work on it a bit more first, and discuss what still needs to be done and when to nominate here before actually nominating it. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:47, 21 September 2007 (EDT)

Standardising Yogyakarta/Jogja and Surakarta/Solo
A recent discussion on Talk:Solo raised the point about how cities that have two names are referred to. Surakarta/Solo and Yogyakarta/Jogja are two cases in point. At the moment they are handled differently. The Yogyakarta page is called Yogyakarta and a search for Jogja is redirected there. The situation for Surakarta is reversed. The page is called Solo and a search on Surakarta is redirected there.

It seems appropriate that the page uses the most formal/official name, and searches on the less formal/unofficial name redirect there, and that variations are clarified immediately below the banner. So, using Yogyakarta and Surakarta for page names, with redirects from Jogja and Solo.

In the Surakarta page, the rest of the headings and text continue to use Solo. However, in the Yogyakarta page, most references to the city in the headings and text use Yogyakarta, rather than Jogja. This doesn't seem to reflect the traveller experience, who will hear and even read Jogja more frequently than Yogyakarta.

Is there are case for standardising this? Page names Yogyakarta and Surakarta with redirects from Jogja and Solo. Headings and text use Jogja and Solo, following clarification. Tawonmadu (talk) 08:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Works for me. Any objections? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:53, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. Veracious (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yogyakarta


text:
Talk:Yoho National Park

Vandalism

 * Moved this here from the pub:

Can an admin have a look at this page. Seems to be a lot of vandalism going on, including an entire text deletion. Not sure which versionis best to roll back to, so seeking advice.(WT-en) Nrms 13:42, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

 * It looks like it's been taken care of so far, all deletions have been reverted by Dguillaime, but I've watchlisted it and will keep an eye out – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 14:45, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Yoho National Park


text:
Talk:Yokohama

Rant
I've snipped this out:

" IMPORTANT NOTE

For those travelling cross-country Japan, might have noticed one big difference. The Kanto area (Tokyo, Yokohama Kawasaki, Saitama, Chiba, Kanagawa and Saitama region) and the Kansai area (Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Gifu, Okayama region) charge room rates completely different. Kanto goes PER HEAD. Thus most room rates are basis per head checking in. If couples it is highly advised to go with the assumption that the rates double, even for the same room. Whereas in Kansai, hotel managers take the more accustomed Western style,charging you per ROOM, regardless of whether alone or couple.

To as "WHY" is unknown. Street rumours say that this boils down to the ancient rivalry between the two areas (old capital vs. new capital). It is like Boston vs. NYC, England vs. France style. Myself as a foreigner, born, raised here, think the above is important as it will have agraaving difference in your budget planning when travelling throughout Japan.

These differences are actually quiet deep rooted, as even the electricity cycles are different (Tokyo / Yokohama 50 cycles; Osaka / Kyoto 60 cycles) which is apparently based on the saying that back in te Meiji era, Tokyo area brought in the first power plant from the USA (rumoured to be GE), whereas Osaka, in rivalry went to Europe to buy from there. Hence the difference.

Note also as an etiquette, that standing on escalators. Tokyo you ought to stand and line up on the left side, people passing by on right, whereas in Osaka you stand on the right side, passing by on the left! (Osaka get all to proud to say that they are much more westernized than the Tokyoiters.)'' "

I'm not entirely convinced it's correct (every ryokan I've ever stayed in in Kansai has charged per head), and it certainly doesn't belong under Yokohama#Sleep. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:28, 26 November 2006 (EST)

Everywhere I've stayed in Kansai has also charged per head, for what it's worth. 61.114.9.102 20:16, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Other Yokohama articles to be merged
As discussed at Project:Votes for deletion, the following articles should be merged with and redirected to Yokohama.

 * 1) Keio horinouchi - a station in Hachioji
 * 2) Center-minami - a station in Tzuzuki ward, Yokohama.
 * 3) Mizonokuchi - a station in Kawasaki, Kanagawa prefecture.
 * 4) Kouhokuku, better written Kouhoku Ward - a ward of Yokohama.
 * 5) Kikuna - a station in Kouhoku Ward (above), Yokohama.
 * 6) Hiyoshi - another station in Kouhoku Ward, Yokohama.
 * 7) Kounandai - a station in Kounan Ward, Yokohama
 * 8) Kamoi - a station in Midori Ward, Yokohama
 * 9) Sakuragicho - a station in Naka Ward, Yokohama.
 * 10) Negishi

There may be others. - (WT-en) Huttite 21:54, 30 December 2009 (EST)

 * Other articles include:

 * Kanazawa-bunko
 * Yokohama city kanazawa ward
 * (WT-en) Huttite 21:07, 6 January 2010 (EST)

 * Kamioooka (mispelling of Kamioka).
 * (WT-en) Huttite 19:39, 7 January 2010 (EST)

Grammar Cleanup
This article has some misspellings and grammar issues (restrant instead of restaurant, parentheses after periods, etc.). This should be flagged for improvement as the article is mostly usable.

Sugiyama shrine: several ones
According to the Japanese Wikipedia, there is a good number of Sugiyama shrines in Yokohama. It can be confusing for those who search for the Sugiyama shrine. - Fabimaru (talk) 21:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

New page banner
A more dramatic page banner. /Yvwv (talk) 03:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, this is the current banner:

 * I think everyone will agree that the new suggested banner is far superior to the existing one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, so much better. Drat70 (talk) 03:16, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Districtification
About time to divide Yokohama into districts? /Yvwv (talk) 08:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd support this. Main article is getting unwieldy. Thuegh (talk) 00:48, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Since you know the city, please propose specific districts and describe their boundaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest by saying I don't know the city well. Looking at the official Yokohama guidebook they seem to split it into 11 different areas grouped based off attractions and neighbourhoods. However, they don't appear to coincide well with the official ward boundaries, so if we go with those boundaries, we would really need to finesse the streets. If we follow the official ward boundaries, then most of the attractions will be in the Naka ward anyways, which kind of defeats the point of dividing into districts. I would defer the boundary making to someone with better understanding of the city and how things are grouped. Thuegh (talk) 01:07, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Eat Section
Many of the listings seem to be written in bad English, and also come across as touting. Could anyone with good knowledge of Yokohama please help to clean it up? The dog2 (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yokohama


text:
Talk:Yokosuka

Closed hotel
If it's closed, then no point listing it, but storing it here in case they reopen under a new name or something. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:06, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Hotel Trinity, .  Previously owned by the Prince Hotel chain, this 18-floor hotel located next to Shiori station closed September 2008. Includes a bar and restaurant with view of the city & harbor on its top floors.

I agree...was just too shy to delete..and thinking they would reopen/get bought out soon...and they are the largest hotel in town. Thanks. (WT-en) Blue cannonball splash 23:38, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Closed restaurant
Bueno's was closed when I walked by about 9 months ago. I will check again if re-opened. (WT-en) Blue cannonball splash 00:02, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

Anjinzuka
Information in Anjinzuka should be merged into this article, or districts created. - (WT-en) Huttite 08:02, 2 December 2009 (EST)

William Adams buried in Hirado?
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_%28sailor%29#Adams.27s_legacy William Adams was buried in Hirado.

title: Talk:Yokosuka


text:
Talk:Yonaguni

Not sure where to put this, but in my opinion Yonaguni is definitely not ugly. Whoever wrote most of this page has obviously either never been there, or not seen the most beautiful parts of the island. Any island which can give you such photos as found on http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~sunsun/ScenesA-21.htm (all images of yonaguni), http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~sunsun/ScenesA-22.htm (first two images of yonaguni), http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j10, http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j04 , http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j05 , http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j06 , http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j07 , http://www2r.biglobe.ne.jp/~rokumaru/okinawa/landscape/yonaguni/txt.cgi?j09 , etc. must be some sort of tropical island paradise, NOT some ugly craggy island. --(WT-en) Node ue 22:54, 8 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * The article doesn't call Yonaguni, just "craggy" (mountaineous) and "rocky", which it is compared to Taketomi or Iriomote. And I most certainly have been there, the only problem is that it rained every day...  (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:35, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * "It would be a stretch to call Yonaguni attractive" implies that you think it's ugly. In my opinion, that's simply not true. Sure, it's more mountainous and rocky than Taketomi and Iriomote, but it still has large, beautiful beaches. They may not be the main attraction, but they're also much much much less crowded than the beaches of the islands of Yaeyama because most people who come to the island are more interested in ruins, sharks, and "Japan's Westernmost Point" than taking in the beautiful sights the island has to offer. OK, so you've been to Yonaguni -- but did you /try/ to visit beaches, or did you not even check because you didn't realise they were there and they were uncrowded? --(WT-en) Node ue 20:30, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * Yeah, I went to Kubura's beach. You tell me how attractive it is:

 * And as said, the weather for my visit wasn't very beach-friendy. If you think beaches are a major attraction, then please edit the article and list the good ones! (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:04, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Hey, thanks for the excellent additions! A few more places to dive/eat/sleep and I think this will be ready for Project:Destination of the Month candidates status. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:10, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Hey Jpatokal, congratulations on getting dear old Dunan nominated as destination of the month! I'm going to add some stuff to the Yonaguni language page, too. User:(WT-en) Heian-794 17:00, 29 Mar 2006 (JT)

Hello everyone, Does somebody know how I can order the Yonaguni dictionary avalaible at the Yonaguni Ethnographic Museum? I searched on Google, but found no informations on this dictionary other than these wikipedia pages. THanks.

seems to give the impression that there's transportation of some sort between Hualien in Taiwan and Yonaguni. Maybe someone should dig up some more info on this?

Yonaguni is also the place where Dr Koto's Clinic has been shooted. It's a somewhat popular japanese drama, and it is apparently possible to visit the titular clinic for a fee (according to the japanese version of the wikipedia article), so maybe we could add it to the culture section.

title: Talk:Yonaguni


text:
Talk:Yonaguni phrasebook

This is in all probability the least useful Wikivoyage phrasebook ever, but it's still cool to have. I'm not sure the pseudo-IPA used now is the best way to represent the pronunciation though, esp. long vowels should be written with macrons instead of the triangle-colon thing. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:49, 6 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * It's not pseudo-ipa, it's how the language is written. At least, it's the writing system used in all the literature I know of.

 * In addition, since as the article notes a casual traveller is not likely to actually need the language (as would be the case with most of the phrasebooks), a short list of phrases will be enough to make Yonagunians happy/excited/impressed that a foreigner would try to speak their language, and as is often the case for languages rarely learnt by foreigners, is likely to open new doors or get you special "bonuses". (A friend often got free drinks in Turkey because he can speak Turkish fluently, he was also given a free cab ride in Azerbaijan for the same reason, and I have had similar experiences with the languages I speak though I am not as widely-travelled).

 * I would like to retract my earlier comment — the French version is even more useless. Maybe it's time to launch a Yonagunian version of Wikivoyage! (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:32, 7 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * Do you mean it's unuseful because it's only spoken on a single remote island? Or unuseful because it has so few phrases? And how is the French version any less useful? Besides the fact that part of it is still in English... I would support a Yonaguni version of Wikivoyage, but a new version needs to go through certain things, and Japanese doesn't have a version yet so it's doubtful Yonaguni (that's the proper name for the language, not Yonagunian) will have one in the near future.
 * A Yonaguni Wikipedia is more likely, but I would guess that an Okinawan one would come first. --(WT-en) Node ue 22:51, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * The phrasebook itself is fine, but language itself has around 800 speakers in the entire world and is slowly dying out to boot. And the French version is even less useful, because how many French speakers will be going to Yonaguni?

 * The sociolinguistic data used there (ie, that it's dying out, and the age breakdown) is the same as what they use for all Ryukyuan languages. The count of 800 is based on the age-breakdown of Yonaguni, not any actual survey -- in fact nearly all islanders, including young ones, are able to speak the language. Also, many speakers have migrated to Ishigaki, Naha, or even mainland Japan. However, there are still probably no more than 3000 speakers, and that's a generous estimate. French is a very widely-spoken language, and the reason the French Wikivoyage exists is because French-speaking people also travel. Not all foreign tourists in Japan are from English-speaking countries, I'm sure at least a couple hundred French speakers have been to Yonaguni. --(WT-en) Node ue 21:47, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * But I still think the Yonaguni phrasebook is great, this is precisely the kind of incredibly obscure yet useful travel info that only Wikivoyage can have! (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:02, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * Late ditto. I actually laughed with maniacal delight when I first saw this article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:31, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Pronunciation key
One request though: please add a pronunciation key for your romanization. ː is the IPA long vowel sign and I presume ŋ is a velar nasal ("ng"), but are eg. syi, hwu, zyi just Kunrei spellings of Hepburn "si", "fu", "ji" or what, and why the dots on ï ? (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:02, 9 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * It's not "romanization"-- it's the only /consistent/ writing system for the language, used by linguists for all Ryukyuan languages. I will add a pronunciation guide, though. "sy" is actually pronounced as /sj/ or /sʲ/ by many people on Yonaguni, though there are those whose pronunciation more resembles /ʃ/; "hw" is pronounced by many as /hʷ/ and by some as /ϕ/. "zy" is pronounced as /zj/, /zʲ/, or /ʒ/, but not usually /ʤ/. ï was an oversight on my part, since Yonaguni only has 3 vowels. However, in those Ryukyuan languages in which it _is_ used, it represents /ɨ/ I think. --(WT-en) Node ue 21:47, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * It is a romanization in the sense that the Yonaguni you see on signs etc is usually written in kana, not romaji!

 * Yes, but those signs are all written in Hyojungo (Standard Japanese). There is no real standardised writing system for any Ryukyuan language, the only one I have seen used consistently over different authors and works is the Ryukyuan phonetic alphabet, based loosely on the IPA.
 * In addition, as Yonaguni makes distinctions between aspirated and unaspirated sounds (there are minimal pairs for k and t), it's not easy to represent in kana.
 * Also, some varieties spoken in the Ryukyus make a triple distinction in vowel length (that's what half-triangular-colon is for), which is difficult to represent in kana.
 * There is actually a kana version of the Ryukyuan phonetic alphabet, but it's not really very consistent (ishigaki hougen jiten uses different kana than U. Ryukyus' hougen onsei deetabeesu to represent the same Roman letters), and since Okinawan is written rarely and other Ryukyuan languages are written next-to-never, the system which is used in dictionaries (ishigaki hougen jiten, okinawagojiten, and a few others use the RPA for the X -> Japanese direction, many also use it for Japanese -> X, and if not that they usually give them side-by-side).
 * It's difficult to represent the extra vowels of Amami / Yaeyama, the special consonants on some islands, and the syllable-final consonants of Miyako (two occur in "aspïttam"), aspiration, nasalisation (when you *do* use kana, this is usually indicated with ka-gyou + maru, or for vowels it's just the vowel + maru), laryngeals, and the like, using kana. Mind you, not all of those occur in Yonaguni, but a couple of them do.
 * It's precisely for this reason that you almost never see these islands with rich oral traditions actually writing their languages: many people may have tried at some point, but it's frustrating as hell. In fact, even in works that *do* try to adapt kana to the RPA, all three distinct nasal sounds in the syllable-final position are usually indicated with a single kana.

 * Also, please remember that Wikivoyage is written for travellers, not linguists. I think it would be good to follow the Project:Romanization conventions as closely as possible, so it's easy to pick up if you can already read Hepburn. I'm also afraid that strange things will happen to "ː" if viewed on some browsers or printers. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:49, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * But most of the romanisation does match hepburn. "zji" is not equivalent to hepburn "ji", "sji" is not equivalent to hepburn "shi", as I already noted. hw is used frequently to write Ryukyuan languages to distinguish from the true f sound that occurs in some. All that really seems different is the use of j, which is actually one of the few inconsistencies in the RPA (although y is less-commonly used, it's used nonetheless), though I don't see what's wrong with it as long as it's included in a pronunciation key.

 * In summary, the sounds of Yonaguni do not all exist in Standard Japanese, so it's rarely written in kana, and what's there now is already pretty close to hebonshiki. --(WT-en) Node ue 12:19, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)
 * Oh, and I was thinking that the triangular colon is just as widely supported as the vowels with macrons, though i may be wrong (WT-en) Node ue 12:21, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)

OK, I'm getting a little frustrated here. Can you please already write a full pronunciation key for every single phoneme in your script, as shown in the Project:Phrasebook template? You can include IPA if you want, but English approximations are more imporatant. I still have no idea how the hell you're supposed to pronounce "zji", "ɨ", "ï", etc. (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:25, 13 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * Ah, sigh. The lack of a basic phonetics guide keeps this from being much usable by native English speakers. And I was looking forward to calling this one "usable." --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:40, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Hello everyone, Does somebody know how I can order the Yonaguni dictionary avalaible at the Yonaguni Ethnographic Museum? I searched on Google, but found no informations on this dictionary other than these wikipedia pages. Thanks.

title: Talk:Yonaguni phrasebook


text:
Talk:Yonkers

2630
the page for yonkers, and others. --(WT-en) Criticul 17:23, 15 March 2011 (EDT)

Content that seemed encyclopedic
Either encyclopedic or in some cases perhaps trivia, but certainly not sights, and therefore moved from "See" to this page, in case anyone thinks any snippets could be useful in the "Understand" section:

 * Celebrities Famous celebrities born, raised or work(ed) in Yonkers are Lady Gaga, Mary J. Blige, David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), DMX, Ella Fitzgerald, Jadakiss, Steven Tyler (Aerosmith), Jon Voight
 * Yonkers in the Media The film "Doubt" starring Meryl Streep as Sister Aloysius Beauvier filmed scenes for this movie at St. Marks Lutheran Church's school. Yonkers is also the location for many major filming projects: Catch Me if You Can with Tom Hanks and Leonardo diCaprio; Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind with Jim Carey and Kate Winslet; Mona Lisa Smile with Julia Roberts; A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe, Big Daddy with Adam Sandler, The Preacher's Wife (a remake of "The Bishop's Wife) with Denzel Washington and Whitney Houston, Kate and Leopold with Meg Ryan and Hugh Jackman. Some episodes of the new TV series Fringe were taped in the downtown. The City Hall Courtroom is also the setting for many film and commercial scenes. Neil Simon wrote a play entitled Lost In Yonkers, set in the city. The story is about two young boys during World War Two, whose father leaves them with their grandmother in Yonkers so he can earn money for the family. Yonkers was shown on A Shot at Love 2 with Tila Tequila, as it was contestant Kristy's hometown.Aside from being a manufacturing center, Yonkers also played a key role in the development of entertainment in the United States. In 1888, Scottish immigrant John Reid founded the first golf course in the United States, St. Andrew's Golf Club, in Yonkers. On January 4, 1940, Yonkers resident Edwin Howard Armstrong transmitted the first FM radio broadcast (on station W2XCR) from the Yonkers home of C.R. Runyon, a co-experimenter. Yonkers also had the longest running pirate radio station, owned by Allan Weiner during the 1970s through the 1980s.In 1853, Elisha Otis invented the first safety elevator and the Otis Elevator Company, opened the first elevator factory in the world on the banks of the Hudson near what is now Vark Street.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

 * Those look like good topics for infoboxes. LtPowers (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yonkers


text:
Talk:York

A disambiguation page for "York" - not necessary?

WikiPedia:York_(disambiguation)

 * I am going to guess this one falls under the "To Famous" catagory.... see disambiguation -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 20:50, 10 March 2006 (EST)

 * I would guess likewise (but you never know for sure - look at Ontario (province))...
 * Anyway I'll leave it well alone unless someone suggests otherwise.

Added myself as a docent for this destination as I lived there for nearly a decade and a half and worked as a tour guide for a few years. --(WT-en) Dazzla 11:38, 4 August 2010 (EDT)

This Article says that York "is of course famous for giving its name to the city and state of New York in the United States". This is untrue - it was named after the Duke of York (later known as James II). Other than his title (the tradition title given to the King's second son), he had no connection to York —The preceding comment was added by 83.71.42.32 (talk • contribs)

 * If so, plunge forward and change the article. However, I appreciate the note here because this explanation might have been too long to put in your editing summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Updated Sleep Splurge section
I updated the listing for a property I represent so that it was in the proper sleep markup format, I didn't change the description but updated the factual information. Please let me know if this is against policy or if I should have approached it differently.VerbInteractive (talk) 13:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That's fine, VerbInteractive. It is perfectly acceptable for you to correct or update factual information, such as phone numbers, url's or price information. Thanks, JuliasTravels (talk) 14:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Explaining two of my routine changes
1. Changing 24-hour times to 12-hour times: the 12-hour clock is the preferred format for our England articles. This was a tough call because in practice we use a mishmash, just like with imperial vs metric measures, and I personally prefer the 24-hour format, but as a guide-level article, York should be consistent with the rest of the country.

2. Changing gift aid to non-gift aid prices, resulting in some strange figures like £6.81 to get in the Minster: gift aid is (a) voluntary (b) only available to UK taxpayers. Overseas visitors and poor scroungers like me can't make a gift aid donation even if we wanted to.

Best wishes to whoever reads this. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:02, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Drink
The Drink section is a bit of a mess. Ideally, the 'districts' would act as headings, and the listings would go under each of them. However, I don't know York well enough to easily place each one in a district - it may be possible with the aid of a map and a pint in my own hand after my holiday, but if anyone has a better idea, please crack on.

Your change is a cool idea, but it would work best with a map visual. Again, it would help if someone who knew York better could step in, since I only have a tourist's knowledge - most of the attractions in 'See' and 'Do' I'm very familiar with, but work on the shops, bars, restaurants etc is all just internet research and relying on previous editors' efforts. Still, things may be clearer when I return in two weeks.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

 * On further reflection, I can't make head nor tail of these pseudo-districts (good luck to anyone who's new to York), and most of the listings don't appear to be aligned to them anyway. Indeed, they date from before the fork, and before the existence of any actual Drink listings. Will remove. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Star nomination
Barring any blind spots which one tends to develop after working on something for a long time, I can't see any reason why this shouldn't get star status. When I started working on it in summer 2018, it was already a great Guide article, and I think I've improved it massively, if not to perfection then something close to it ;-) But what do you think? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

 * It's no secret that I have a very high opinion of ThunderingTyphoons on a personal level as well as a great respect for his work as an editor. So, to avoid the appearance of bias, I figured the fairest thing I could do in this case is to go over the article with a fine-toothed comb and not rest until I found at least one thing to gripe about, and hopefully more than one. I've been searching and searching and, alas, I give up. "Perfection or something close to it" is an apt description. Support. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Support. If I were ever to visit York, I would surely use this guide. I cannot find anything to suggest as an improvement. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:03, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Coming from both of you, with the quality of articles attached to your usernames, that means a lot. Thank you.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:24, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Support. If only all our articles looked like this one! --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 21:20, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. While I think this could be peer-reviewed by someone from York, from a Wikivoyage criteria pov it is an excellent article. Joshlama1 (talk) 00:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment - it would be nice to get this nomination approved before the article is featured as DOTM (in September, according to the current schedule). Having said that, a certain (unknown) number of the listings may have to be removed and replaced once lockdown has been lifted, which probably does preclude the article from Star status until that's been done.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * We should probably not vote on any more nominations (not that we were) until the lockdown is well past, for that reason. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 15:06, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I see no good reason why we should keep this nomination on hold indefinitely for that reason. ThunderingTyphoons!, I have faith that you will update the article to reflect business closures, COVID-related and otherwise, as necessary. Until then, we should presume that businesses will reopen after the lockdown has ended unless they've announced otherwise, or unless there's some other evidence otherwise (e.g. FOR LEASE signs in shop windows, or I suppose in the UK the term is TO LET), just as we have always done. However, I do agree with SelfieCity that we should hold off on any new nominations. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:48, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Support. It is a good article. Although it is about 10 years since I have spent any time in York, I think it is fairly accurate. I expect that some of the Eat or Sleep listings may not survive, but there are plenty so just removing those with closed signs is easy. AlasdairW (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Result: this seems like a clear consensus in support of this article being upgraded to star status. I will do the upgrade to star status now. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 15:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Last minute request for help
Hi all. I've been making sure York is up-to-date post-lockdown and have made good progress, but now realise I probably won't be able to finish before 1st August (i.e. Saturday). If any of you could spare some time, would you mind going through the Sleep section and checking accommodation options are still in business? And also if necessary update room rates, contact details etc.? Sorry for short notice, but even if you only do a couple of listings, It would be a great help. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have checked all the sleep listings, except the budget ones, and almost all appeared to be open - either the webpage said when they reopened, or I got a price for a room in August. Hostels are more complicated, as I think they can only reopen some of the facilities, and only the YHA made the situation clear at a quick read. Cheaper B&Bs with shared bathrooms may also have restrictions. AlasdairW (talk) 22:00, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Brilliant, Alasdair! Thank you, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:01, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Brewery tours
Moving this listing here in case the tours restart in future:

ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:12, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Amateur actor as Christ, 1969.png
 * Fortunately not on the page, will be deleted from Wikidata. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

 * The "own work" claim is disputed, but no evidence has been shown. The files concerned may or may not be kept. –LPfi (talk) 11:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:York


text:
Talk:Yorkshire

Visitor Feedback
Leave your experiences/comments/questions:

Page Issues
Thanks for refining the map - any chance of one (just small) that shows the location of Yorkshire relative to the rest of the UK?
 * OK, I've uploaded and added a map showing Yorkshire's location, if it's not exactly what you were looking for let me know and I can change it. --(WT-en) Paul. 20:19, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Spot on thanks - can I be cheeky and ask the 3 national parks be added as shaded areas to the larger map? http://www.nationalparks.gov.uk/index.htm shows the locations? Thanks

 * Sorry it took so long to get back, but your idea of adding national parks made me go ahead and add them and Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, to the main UK map. And that took ages. I've finally finished it now, however, but rather than add the national parks to the larger map on here (which might have made it too crowded) I created a separate map (with Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty as well as National Parks) and added it to the "Do" section. --(WT-en) Paul. 00:35, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Thanks - looks great.

Hi, dont know if this will work, but "LEEDS- the new capitol of Yorkshire" ..... did i miss a meeting?..

Which Yorkshire?
The "Yorkshire" mentioned here seems to be the one that makes up the "Yorkshire and Humber" Region, which is not the real Yorkshire at all. No inclusion of Middlesbrough and Redcar which form a part of the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire, no inclusion of the parts "lost" to Lancashire, Durham and "Cumbria" in 1974, take Sedbergh in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, surely if it wasn't in Yorkshire it wouldn't be in the National Park? The "administrative units" you mention, North, West, East and South Yorkshire are incorrect as well! York became "independent" of North Yorkshire County Council and has its own authority. West and South Yorkshire remain in law only, their county councils were abolished in 1996 and the constituent town and city councils that made up these areas became unitary authoriites. I acknowledge that we still have Police forces and Fire Brigades named after them but I'm sure over time these will change too, in the same way we now have just the "Yorkshire Ambulance Service". I also acknowledge that a lot of people still use these terms as a geographical frame of reference, even though they are incorrect. As for East Yorkshire, well I believe the current name of the council is "East Riding of Yorkshire" but whose administration does not cover the city of Kingston-upon-Hull, but Hull forms part of the East Riding for "ceremonial purposes". Now the term "Riding" means "a third" so how can we have an East Riding and not the West and North Ridings. What a confusing mess local government is in this country! So my point is if you are using the current government region (minus the bit of Lincolnshire south of the Humber), then you should use the CURRENT local government boundaries and authority names! If you want to have Yorkshire in its proper form, then you should use the pre-1974 boundaries as used in any good road atlas of that time. If you want to perpetuate the disgraceful "boundary changes" of 1974, then you would need to omit the East Riding as back then the administrative area was the much hated "Humberside". Mixing elements of the afore-mentioned versions of "Yorkshire" just add confusion! Those pen-pushers in Whitehall have a lot to answer for! The people were never consulted on the changes and they never had a vote on the outcome. A whole generation have grown up not really knowing their true birthright. The Ridings were never abolished, only the county councils were. County councils have only been about since 1888/89, and the ridings and borders existed for many centuries before then! Only the monarch can abolish what many now call the "old" or "traditional" counties. And HM the Queen has never done this. Parliament has even commented on many occasions that (refering to the traditional counties) "it cannot abolish, what it did not create". Rant over. I make no excuse for being a proud Yorkshire man!

 * One of the problems arising from constant government tinkering is that it is hard to find any easy definition to fit what the people understand as "Yorkshire". Even that public understanding has morphed with people growing up during the changes, so that maybe people don't very much perceive places like Middlesbrough as being in Yorkshire. I think this article makes a good crack at covering a "real" Yorkshire area. ...If you'll permit an objective opinion from a son of the Red Rose county. ;-) (WT-en) Andyfarrell 08:05, 8 November 2007 (EST)

title: Talk:Yorkshire


text:
Talk:Yoro

New article, Im surprised this never already existed!

Please fill in the hiking, waterfall and onsen sections with more details if you can! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Snave (talk • contribs) 18:33, 11 July 2010

title: Talk:Yoro


text:
Talk:Yosemite National Park

Yosemite Falls
Wikipedia lists this waterfall as the world's third highest and sixth highest. A user comment on the Image:Yosemitefalls.jpg image indicated that it was the fifth highest. Since it doesn't really matter to the article, let's just leave things as "one of the world's highest" unless someone can come up with a definitive rank. -- (WT-en) Ryan 01:15, 12 Jul 2005 (EDT)

 * Even better, WikiPedia:Yosemite Falls not only says it is the sixth as you mentioned, but the image caption in the article says it's the 18th. Totally agree with "one of the world's highest." -- (WT-en) Colin 20:50, 9 November 2006 (EST)

I live and work in Yosemite National Park. Yosemite Falls is in fact the highest waterfall in North America at almost 2500 vertical feet of rise over the three different stages. That makes the falls the 5th highest in the world. Just some clarification for anyone that was interested. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Jpete2296 (talk • contribs)

Rafting
I've removed the section on rafting since according to http://www.c-w-r.com/information/yosemite-rafting.html there is no rafting on either the Tuolumne or Merced rivers within the park. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Yosemite Valley Image
Hopefully the new Yosemite Valley image works better, but as always feel free to change things around - the image change was supposed to be followed by a (tongue-in-cheek) "subject to (WT-en) Colin's stamp of approval", but work-related matters intervened and I got sidetracked. Also, I went through my Yosemite pictures and none seemed particularly noteworthy, but am always willing to include any of them in the article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:57, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

 * I had a change of heart about the main image, so I went digging through my stash of photos. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything that was iconic for Yosemite, but hopefully the new main image is OK - feel free to change if desired.  I also removed an older image that was basically a close-up of a cliff with trees sticking into the frame - Yosemite is a really beautiful place, so we can probably do better. -- (WT-en) Ryan 17:36, 9 November 2006 (EST)

anyone have insight on biking in Yosemite?
Biking seems to have been missed.

where to rent bike trail map if you bring your own bikes can you carry them onto the shuttles instead of conjuring a parking place on Valley floor?

 * I don't think it was missed so much as no one who was a biker has yet edited this article. Feel free to take a look at http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/biking.htm (it is public domain so can be copied) and add any relevant info to this page.  Also, if you create an account and log in it makes conversations easier, and you can sign your posts with four tildes ( "~" ).  Or not, just a suggestion! -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:59, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

What to Bring
Can someone include information on what to bring (particularly for small day hikes)? Try to assume that there are inexperienced folks who just want to see the sites!

I also have some questions on safety issues...how safe is it for two young students of small stature to be travelling to Yosemite alone? We will be depending on Amtrak as we do not drive, and we are having trouble planning this trip!

Thanks. 64.81.68.198 17:23, 28 June 2006 (EDT)Bloody Rox

You can rent bikes in shops in the valley. However...There aren't many trails that they actually allow riding on. Your much better off strapping a pack to your back and hitting up some of the 800 miles of hiking trails. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Jpete2296 (talk • contribs)

Maps
Can someone link a few good maps of the valley area?

Restaurant updates
Someone spent a lot of time updating the restaurant descriptions, and some of this information is helpful, but at the same time quite a lot of it reads like a rant. Colorful reviews are fine, but it's probably also not good to be so negative as to sound like a bitter patron (see Project:Avoid negative reviews as well). I've reverted (for now) and moved here, and hopefully some of this can be updated and put back into the main article.

 * An upscale restaurant in Yosemite Valley serving breakfast, lunch and dinner. Be aware that there is a "resort casual" dress code for dinners, meaning shorts and jeans are not acceptable attire, and that dinner reservations are recommended. At the far end of the dining room is The Alove, which features a 30 foot floor to ceiling window that perfeclty frames Yosemite Falls. There are only 4 tables in The Alcove. Two of these tables have names, The Honeymoon table and The Queens table. The Honeymoon table seats 2 and is placed against the massive window. The Queens table is probably the most coveted tabel in the dining room. It seats 4 people and is placed in the center of the alcove. This table offers the best view of yosemite falls in the dining room. It is also a notoriously hard table to get. My best advice is to reserve it at least three months in advance. When you make the resevation, speak directly with the dining room manager, currently that would be Bryan Hamil. Once you get the reservation, confirm it every week until you arrive. They have been known to kill reservations if a VIP suddenly shows up and decides they want it, so keep on them. I have direct knowledge of this happening to somebody when Jennifer Annsiton and Brad Pitt showed up. And if this happens don't expect too much sympathy from the waitstaff. They know they'll get better tips from the VIP's ($250+). They'll do some song and dance appology about how the table was "accidentally" over booked, maybe offer a free dessert. The best time to reserve the Queens table with the highest probability of actually geting it is in January, when the dining room first opens. Show up 30 minutes before the dining room opens and circle like a vulture, this is no time to be timid, make sure they know you've got the reservation and fight for it. Don't go for the "We'll call you when it's ready", you leave the host stand - you lose the table. You come back in twenty minutes and try to get another time estimate and all you're gonna get is, "we tried calling you and you didn't show up so we already seated somebody else at that table". Yes, this table really is this hard to get. Don't make a reservation for it even one hour after they open for dinner, people love the view and linger at it twice as long as all the other tables. So if you make a 6 o'clock reservation, the people who had the 5 o'clock reservation are probably going to be there for another hour, you're either going to wait a long time or be seated at another table, and it will be a table as far away from it, and the view, as possible for good reson. While extremly rare, people who have been denied the queens table have been know to dump their drinks in the laps of people siiting at the Queens table as they are leaving. The waitstaff is hopeful that the added distance will further minimize these occurances. Also, if Brian Wunderlich is the captain of servers when you arrive, put a c note in his palm right away. He is a true beliver in the favor system and he will be your best friend, and you will have an absolutley wonderful time.

 * Open daily year-round, this dining room is located in Yosemite Lodge and offers dinner with a view of Yosemite Falls. A significant portion of its menu includes organic and sustainable food. Food and service that's just as good as the Ahwahnee with menu prices that are 20% less and without that pesky dresscode (dig out them Bermuda Shorts).

 * Serving cafeteria-style meals in Yosemite Lodge. Offers breakfast, lunch and dinner year-round. The executive chef of the Mountain Room is also in charge of the food in this facility, and it really shows that he puts all his efforts into the Mountain Room,

 * Located in Curry Village, this buffet offers both a breakfast and a dinner buffet.

 * Burritos, tacos, nachos, ice cream and beverages. Open Seasonally from April to October. The best mexican food that ever came out of a can. Or as we like to say, "We got the freshest cans in the valley". If you goto a Taco Bell on a hot summer day when they first open, get a bag of whatever. Allow the food to sit in the car until sunset (DON'T TURN ON THE AC, DON'T OPEN THE WINDOWS) and then eat it, it will still taste better than what they serve at the Taco Stand.

 * Pizza and salads. Open March through December. The product offered is nearly identical in quality and price as the Loft, however if alot, and I do mean alot, of lound, obnoxious people aren't your cup of tea, avoid this place like the plague.

 * Open March through December.

 * Fast food in Yosemite Village. Open from spring through fall. All burgers and sandwiches come dry, ketchup, mustard, mayo, and barbecue sauce available at the condiment station. Also, the summer of '07, we had Ukranian employees who had never seen or heard of a hamburger (yeah, my jaw was on the floor too), so don't expect your order to be right until a couple months after it opens.

 * Open seasonally to the general public, offering pizza, salads and soups in Yosemite Village. Open to the public from April to October from 12pm to 9pm. Open only to park employees and residents November through March from 5pm to midnight (last call at 11:30pm). Pizzas and salads are available only from 5pm to 9pm. They also add pool tables and video games during the winter. They are removed during tourist season to maximize seating. Traveler hint: If you go during the winter just tell them you just started working in the park, someplace remote like wawona. then they'll understand why they don't recognize you and let you in. Plus, at the order counter, there is an employee sign in sheet that employees must sign to get a 50% discount on menu prices. Immediatly go to sign this as if you know what your'e doing. The fisrt column is where you print your name, make sure you print, some cashiers aren't to picky on this but don't take the chance, the second columnn is where you fill in your employee number, all employees numbers are six digits and since your'e posing as a new employee make sure the first number is a 2 or 3, the other numbers don't matter so you can make up anything for the other five. However it would mean a great deal to me if you use mine, 150200. The next column specifies the type of discount, 50%, manager meal, or meal card. Check the box in the 50% Column. If they push you for your employee id just say you forgot it and reiterate you just started at wawona. If they ask if anybody knows you, tell them you know lynette dean (she's a head honcho at human resources), and you just met her today to process your human resouces paperwork. And by the time the Loft opens HR has closed and won't be able to verify. But I know nobody there cares enough to be that thourogh. If you need back up info the name of the company that runs Yosemite is Delaware North Co. but we all just call it DNC. This trick should also work at most other dining venues excluding The Ahwahnee and The Mountain Room. This trick is even more effective at the Village Grill during the summer when they are so busy they just want to keep the line moving, they don't care who you are and will just want you to fill in the sign in sheet as fast as poosible, and get you in and out as fast as possible. If you are african american, talk with a jamaican accent and we'll just think you're one of the jamaican employees here on a H2B work visa. Remember it gets you 50% off menu prices at the Curry Pavillion buffet, the Curry pizza deck, the Curry taco stand, the Village Grill, Degnan's Loft, and the Yosemite Lodge food court.

 * Next to Degan's Loft, serving pastries, coffee and ice cream. Open Summer Season.

 * Open year-round and offering standard deli fare, located in Yosemite Village.

 * Offering drinks and snacks during the summer. Located near the Happy Isles nature center. All the same snack goodies as they sell at the Village Store but with a slight mark up, 500%.

-- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:22, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Rental homes
As the article notes, there are a number of private rental homes available in the park. Today I removed two listings ( and ) that were for single homes - this is a star article, and per Project:Goals and non-goals it shouldn't be a yellow pages, but should instead feature items of the most use to travelers. I'm afraid that listing individual properties is a slippery slope towards an article that is less focused on travelers and more focused on providing exposure for property owners, but am starting a discussion in case others feel that a revert was inappropriate. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:45, 11 January 2012 (EST)

 * Ryan:
 * Yosemite West, a private community inside the gates of Yosemite park, is unique. Unlike Wawona that has one central rental company and Foresta with a similar system, Yosemite West has numerous individual companies representing 1-4 homes/units -- examples Cozy-bear.com, PineArbor.com, http://yosemitewest.com/falcon.htm, http://yosemitewest.com/sun.htm,  http://yosemitewest.com/top.htm,  and Red Door to list a few.  Yes, there are large rental groups too, but with 20 homes being build in Yosemite West this year and the building of Yosemite Institute new campus adjacent Yosemite West nearing completion, the number of independent rentals will increase.  In fact, the county has written this small rental system method into the Mariposa General Plan, which will force most large rental groups to disband.

 * What I suggest is we make a Yosemite West section as you have done with Wawona (which is both private and park properties). As you know, there are hiking trails in Yosemite West as outlined in this wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_West,_California as well as historic sites of Henness Ridge.

 * (WT-en) Peter •(talk) • 8:025, 12 January 2012 (EST)

 * My concern is that including individual property listings would just be a spammy list of properties that may or may not meet Wikivoyage's existing guidelines on rental listings. Similarly, if this is a private community then I'm not sure including an entire section on it within the park article is appropriate since it would not be accessible to most park visitors, correct?  I've been to Yosemite dozens of times, and my understanding is that these private communities within the park are mostly managed as inholdings separate from the rest of the park and not places that the vast majority of visitors would ever go to.  If that's the case, then briefly mentioning them and providing some guidance on how a visitor would access these areas might be appropriate, but I'd be uncomfortable with anything more than brief mentions.  Alternately, if Yosemite West is going to essentially be a small town within the park, maybe a separate article like what is done with Lee Vining or El Portal would make the most sense... -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:35, 12 January 2012 (EST)

 * Ryan, you are limiting your readers to DNC housing by ignoring Foresta and Yosemite West alternatives. Your article includes The Redwoods in Wawona, a large private rental operation.   Yosemite's Four Seasons and Scenic Wonders offer for rent a large number of cabins (each with 75+ units) in Yosemite West.  If they  were added to your listing, would you leave them in your article?  - : (WT-en) Peter •(talk) • 9:16, 12 January 2012 (EST)

 * Listing a small handful of agencies that visitors can use to rent private cabins in the park seems fine, including for Yosemite West, but as noted originally I'm uncomfortable with listing individual houses since that could easily turn into a list of dozens of properties and detract from the rest of the article. Similarly, if the number of listings for rental agencies gets unwieldy (more than five or so) then I think this would need to be re-visited per the rental listing guidelines and the not a yellow pages guidance. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:39, 12 January 2012 (EST)

 * This seems reasonable. I will list the two largest rental groups in Yosemite West. (WT-en) Peter •(talk) • 10:45, 12 January 2012 (EST)

Ryan, I have developed a wikivoyage article on Yosemite West. Is it possible to link this article to yours (WT-en) Peter • (talk) •

 * The new Yosemite West article looks good. I would suggest linking it from the "Get out" section, and under the "Sleep" section (similarly to how towns like El Portal have been linked), with a few brief mentions elsewhere if relevant.  Similarly, since there is now a separate article the rental agency listings located in Yosemite West should be moved from this article to Yosemite West.  Thanks for your work on this! -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:42, 21 February 2012 (EST)

 * Your suggestion -> "I would suggest linking it from the "Get out" section, and under the "Sleep" section (similarly to how towns like El Portal have been linked), with a few brief mentions elsewhere"  --  That would be fine -- Could you do that on your site? I don't want to muck your site up.
 * Also thanks for the compliment! Also, one question that plagues visitors to Yosemite West is the access to it. Technically, it is outside the park yet its access is inside the park only. Is there a way to clarify that on your site? Thanks   (WT-en) Peter • (talk) •   11:30, 21 February 2012 (EST)

 * I've added references to Yosemite West in the "Sleep" and "Get out" sections, but please correct anything that needs fixing. Also, one concern with the images on the Yosemite West article - you have uploaded them as "public domain" which means that you are saying that they are your own creation and you are allowing anyone to do anything they like with them.  However, maps and images with captions often come from other web sites, so to be sure these really are your own work, could you just confirm that you are the photographer of the pictures and the creator of the map?  Thanks! -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:55, 21 February 2012 (EST)

Hiking information very long
The hiking section has gotten very long and it may probably merit its own article, and therefore benefiting the traveler. Any objections before I do such? I'd also like to add some mini-itineraries within, but the layout of this article doesn't permit such. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:16, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Very Good article but is it really a STAR?
In the SEE section it appears to just be basic descriptions of each district in the park, rather than a compilation of actual sites. I have no objection to separate the parts of the park, but I think we can do better. NathanRlds (talk) 04:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

 * if you think it's not star-worthy, then by all means list it on Star nominations.
 * My 2c is that a lot of info on this page is out of date, and I had to double check some other websites before visiting this park earlier this year. It needs an overhaul, but I'd leave it to someone who knows the park more than I do. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 04:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yosemite National Park


text:
Talk:Yotvata

Yotvata
Too fine-grained. 152.132.10.134
 * Might be worth keeping, though. It is only a few hundred people but it might be a destination for some travellers. (WT-en) Pashley 20:36, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Keep. It's not a big place, but few in the middle of the Negev are. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:07, 3 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Keep . It is like a small town: . (WT-en) WindHorse 23:19, 4 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Undecided. Can you sleep there?  If not, is there somewhere nearby where you can?  More info, please. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 09:44, 5 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Good point - I thought I'd seen a link for accommodation on their web site, but I was mistaken. Generally, such places would be best listed it as an attraction on a regional page, but there is no address on the website, which implies they do not encourage visitors. So, perhaps delete is the best option. (WT-en) WindHorse 23:48, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Merge and redirect to Eilat, which is about 40km away. Under "projects" on their website it talks about being able to stay there as part of a volunteer program (2 months minimum) or to study Hebrew (5 months)... so it's of interest to long-term travelers, but I don't think qualifies for its own article. – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:32, 15 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Merge and redirect looks best, given the can-you-sleep-there concerns. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 09:43, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Yotvata


text:
Wikivoyage talk:Joke articles/You

April Fool's
Inspired by Fantastic Voyage, this is my proposal for our April Fool article this year. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:59, 21 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Hilarious. But I'm pretty sure this is other people...I read it somewhere.(WT-en) JuCo 15:55, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

 * I created 1 too, Flaccid Peninsula National Park. It would be nice to have 3.... DOTM, OTBP, and COTW   :)   – (WT-en) cacahuate   talk 13:52, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

 * Nice maps! --(WT-en) Nick 03:17, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

There, I added some See, Do, and Eat listings. (WT-en) Texugo 04:54, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

title: Wikivoyage talk:Joke articles/You