text:
Talk:Saint Lucia

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Saint Lucia/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

"Stay Safe"
If there is real reason to be concerned, this entry needs substantially more facts than now cited, e.g., the link to "stories" of robbery and battery is actually to one sorry event.

I agree, the link to the "recent midnight robberies" does not mention anything about midnight rapes and robberies on tourists in their hotel rooms. Also, the use of the term "recent" is vague. This section needs more facts and better links. [i forgot to sign in] 2:50, July 14 2009 (PST)

Have seen no other such acts reported in news sources about the island. Recommend most discussion about crime instead be focused on how to avoid such events. jdh

Driving

There seem to be mixed opinions about driving on this island. My personal experience (admittedly some years in the past) is that it's no scarier there than in many other places, but in any event, may I suggest some compromise language that conforms more closely to our Project:Manual of Style? The articles (in contrast to the talk pages) should avoid first-person anecdotes and "I think that..." opinions. Something neutral and third-personish should be written, ideally incorporating both opinions that have been voiced here. Thanks. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 19:30, 12 March 2006 (EST)

Alternative banner for this article?
I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 12:50, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * The new banner has a more striking image, so I'd support the change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Proposed Syced (talk) 07:44, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Move to city?
Is there a good reason why any of the "Sleep" listings should remain in this guide and not be moved to the guides for the nearest city in every case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Piton Beer with a View of the Piton Mountains.JPG

 * "Reason for the nomination: COM:PACKAGING, beer label artwork is the focus of the image." Doesn't seem like a good reason for us, and it's wrong, as the point is to show that the label uses the shapes of the mountains. Does anyone oppose uploading the image locally? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Please make a comment within a day or two. It's clear this photo will be deleted from Commons. Is it OK to upload locally? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

 * I downloaded this file to buy us time, but I don't feel comfortable uploading it until someone expresses an opinion about whether the photo is OK to use. I doubt the beer company would object to free advertising, but state a freakin opinion, someone, please. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Lucia


text:
Talk:Saint-Malo

I think that with 135,000 inhabitants Saint Malo cannot be characterized as "a small town". Ttzavaras (Greek Wikipedia).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Saint-Malo


text:
Talk:Saint Martin

Naming
Should Saint Martin and Saint Maarten have their own articles or two? Or one article for the island in general and two for the countries? I'm not sure, but I did make a redirect from Saint Martin/Saint Maarten to this article for now. (WT-en) Maj 14:09, 10 January 2007 (EST)

 * I don't believe it's necessary, as the the two Parts make only one Island.(WT-en) Claire Renton 18:52, 15 February 2008 (GMT)

 * I don't think it needs to be two articles, however seeing as this is a Travel Website and most tourist enter and stay on the Dutch Side of the island, The article should be called St. Maarten / St. Martin.

 * I agree. However, the backslash in the article title would break our breadcrumb navigation. Would another way of naming it work? Perhaps Saint Martin-Saint Maarten? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:30, 12 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Just a note on the side line: the Dutch name is spelled as Sint Maarten, not Saint Maarten (the French name is Saint Martin). Jahoe (talk) 11:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Get In
Recommend the link to "Windward Islands" be deleted. Appears to be third-party aggregater. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 67.190.215.59 (talk • contribs)

 * They don't so much as have a central office on the island, so I've removed the listing per Project:External links. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:23, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

Do section
Suggest someone knowledgeable revise entry about casinos under "Do" to reflect a more factual discussion, and revise inaccurate statements, e.g., casinos are found on both ends of the island. Current content reads like an advertisement, and tour guides during several visits there state that there are no casinos on the French side. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 24.127.238.196 (talk • contribs)

 * There are no Casino's on the French Side as yet. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Hpqt (talk • contribs)

Understand
Someone should monitor the legal status of the government of Dutch side of the island. Online news articles indicate Sint Maarten will become an independent country Fall of 2010. John Henne - hennejon@aol.com

Fixed 1 Feb 2011. (WT-en) hennejohn   1030 EST 2 Feb 11

Why redirect "Sint Maarten" to "Saint Martin"?
Why is a search for "Sint Maarten" redirected to "Saint Martin"? It should be the other way round; the French name should be redirected to the Dutch name. As most tourist stay on the Dutch side, the Island is internationally more known by its Dutch name than it's French name. It smells like a case of French favoritism. I think we should reverse the name redirect 81.99.219.223

Drink
Listed night spots were poorly written commercials. Have edited them while trying to retain essential facts. (WT-en) hennejohn 1115 EST 2 Feb 2011

Outline?
Would suggest this article now qualifies for a higher rating...perhaps not yet a "Guide Article". (WT-en) Hennejohn 14:57, 22 September 2011 (EDT)

 * Almost! Region guide status, though, depends on the articles below it, and two of the three city articles are still at outline status. To get Philipsburg and Marigot up to usable status would not at all be hard—they would each need basic "get in" info, as well as a listing or two in both the "eat" and "sleep" sections. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:51, 22 September 2011 (EDT)

Marigot?
Yes, there is a Marigot (city) on the French side of Saint Martin. But the current link provided points to Marigot on Dominica. Have removed the link. Regrets, but I'm unqualified to provide meaningful content for what's needed. Hennejohn (talk) 19:44, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I have sorted out the confusion but would be good if someone else checked and confirmed Marigot (disambiguation). --Traveler100 (talk) 06:46, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Martin


text:
Talk:Saint Martins Island

So where the heck is it?
Just added geocode to wikipedia article ( ), as that was the best way I could figure out to give people a chance to locate this place, but we really really need something like that for WT, with the amount of obscure places we have in our books, couldn't we just link to the wikimedia geohack place, from a template somehow? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Sertmann (talk • contribs)

 * Bottom right, on the Bangladesh map... coords would be good too though :) – (WT-en) cacahuate   talk 12:36, 15 January 2009 (EST)

Beach picture?
If the only reason to visit this place is the beach, how about a picture of it? —The preceding comment was added by 180.234.78.192 (talk • contribs)

 * I count to three beach pictures in the article; the banner, one next to the Buy section and on at the bottom of the article. If you feel like improving the article, by all means, do so! ϒpsilon (talk) 18:37, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Martins Island


text:
Talk:Saint Paul

Closed/removed listings
Landlord issues have forced this one to close. It is unknown if they will ever reopen in another location:
 * Saint Paul's only independently-owned record store. Large local music selection. Also hosts all-ages gigs. (WT-en) Eco84 21:36, 6 September 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Saint Paul


text:
Talk:Saint Petersburg

General
I moved this page to have a disambiguator. I realize that the Russian city is much larger and well-known than the Floridian one, but I figured if we needed a disclaimer at the beginning of the page, it was worth putting a full disambiguation page in.

I didn't know the next-higher region to use for the disambiguator. When we get Russia's geographical hierarchy straightened out, it may make sense to move this article again. --(WT-en) Evan 12:47, 27 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * I couldn't trace down how this got moved, but I moved it back. Is there a conversation I missed? It seems like this city is not sufficiently more famous than Saint Petersburg (Florida) to justify dropping the disambiguator. --(WT-en) Evan 10:22, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Also: I was going to change all the links here, but I realized it's probably good to let the discussion go for a while before doing that. --(WT-en) Evan 10:26, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

Years later, this has been moved back per discussion at Talk:Saint_Petersburg_(disambiguation). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:27, 23 February 2010 (EST)

Getting into the Hermitage
I think the advice in the Getting into the Hermitage box is a good one, but I was there last week and I found it simpler than what the box suggests. After talking to other people that had been there before I have the feeling that things might have changed since that was written.

In my case it was like this: in the archway that connects the Palace Square with the inner yard there's a door on the right that says "Tours Office" (in English). I went inside, there were two windows and another door. I opened that door and asked for tours in English. They told me (in good English) the time for the next tour, and I bought the ticket right there. It was 400 rubles for the entrance plus 200 for the tour itself. The photography fee was not included.--(WT-en) Pendulum 15:51, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Stay safe section
The STAY SAFE part is to be revised, please! There are typical precautions for every big city (5 mil+) and these do not ESPECIALLY refer to "wild" Russia.

Hi! (Privet!) I'm not rigistered yet, but made some edits to article. Please check it, cause my Enklish is not good. I'm live in St Petersburg so if you want to know something about living there please write to schfuchs@gmail.com. Good luck! (Udachi!)

Connections
The Sibelius and Repin trains from Helsinki terminating in St. Petersburg will switch back to using the Finland station in September 2006. The Tolstoi train from Helsinki via St. Petersburg to Moscow will presumably not be affected. http://www.vr.fi/heo/eng/ita/faikataulut.htm http://www.vr.fi/heo/ita/faikataulut.htm

Article's status
Although some sections are incomplete, in my recent trip to St. Petersburg, I found this guide very useful. I didn't need any other guide. Is it still so small it has to be an outline? I mean, all the important sections have lots of info, I think it should be changed to 'usable'. Anyone have any objections?(WT-en) EmbrunOntario 15:57, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

 * The status criteria for city/town/village articles can be found at Project:City guide status. It's not unusual for an article to be improved enough to qualify for a higher status, so if you see one that meets the criteria (and this one does), plunge forward and upgrade it.  Note that when you get above "outline", the tag gets more specific about what kind of article it is: in this case it would be  or (with a little clean-up and more contact info in the listings)  . - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:37, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Note that I wasn't encouraging you to mess with the article title. This can be discussed (if you don't mind) on Talk:St. Petersburg (disambiguation) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:15, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

 * I've been contributing to this article for a while, and I'd like to pick up where this discussion previously left off - there's plenty of information on St. Pete and no reason it can't at least make it to Guide status soon. In my estimation, here are the tasks I see remaining before this article becomes a Guide:
 * Reformat layout so that text does not scroll off the screen (DONE - another user did this last week by removing the text boxes regarding bus travel; I think it is an improvement, and the current layout is much easier on the eye ... and on the printer)
 * Get In: shorten by moving visa/immigration information to the country-level article where it is more appropriate (DONE - I did this today)
 * Get Around: provide a link to the bridge schedule, if available
 * See: Two years on, this section still should have more contact info and should use the standard listing format for each element  * .  Also recent confirmation of the Hermitage tips in the text box would be nice.
 * Do: I'd like to revamp this section. For starters, I think the Mariinsky Theater's name can stand alone without such a wordy explanation, although tips like theatergoing with children have value.  Likewise, movie viewing tips can be consolidated.  I propose subdividing this section with three subheadings (1-Opera/Ballet/Symphony, 2-Movie Theaters, 3-Canal Boats) with a few listings for each, in standard listing format - after all, the Mariinsky is not the only worthwhile theater in town, but music is certainly one of the highlights of any visit to St. Pete.  I could probably also scrounge up some info on canal boat tours in English.
 * Learn: can also be reformatted for standard listings, and there are a couple others I can add. (DONE - and thanks to those who started the reformatting, too. I removed http://www.encspb.ru/en/ since it didn't really fit there within Wiki guidelines, but the site does have some interesting info.)
 * Work: Finding work here - and especially work permission - is not easy. Can anyone provide information, or can we plunge forward to Guide status without this section?
 * Eat: Listings could stand to be converted to standard listing format, and I wonder if there's any interest in pulling out vegetarian restaurants into a subheading of their own?
 * Drink: Nightclubs don't have the standard listing, but the article can survive with or without for the moment, I'd say.
 * Sleep: Mostly in good shape, a few listings could be reformatted, and I'm surprised no one has listed the Astoria/Angleterre on St. Isaac's Square.
 * Contact: In addition to the text that's there, I propose listings for some internet cafes. St Pete seems to be underserved in this field, compared to other European cities its size, so knowing where the handful of cafes are would be nice.  (DONE - I added 4 listings recently, Oct09)
 * Stay Safe: There's quite a lot of text here already - much of which is already under discussion - but I notice some other articles are helpful in listing hospitals and clinics foreigners commonly use; I could add some listings here. (DONE - I added 4 listings recently, Oct09)
 * Any reactions to the above, or any other projects to take on before making this article a Guide? --(WT-en) Andrewsyria 04:54, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

 * Well, this is absolutely fantastic work you're doing—the article was really messy from a formatting perspective, last time I looked at it.

 * In response to several of your comments: 1) I don't think there's any Piter-specific info for work that doesn't just duplicate what is/should be written in the Russia article. 2) Internet cafes are/were really important for travel here, and I remember there were a few cafes on Nevsky back in 2003 opening up with free wifi. 3) Regarding get around info, we've got a ton of Russian language content on this that I'll try and bring over here. 4) Hospital listings would be really useful; I can take a crack at the prose—I know a fair amount about security issues here (hopefully not outdated, from 2003-4).

 * I lived here for a while, and it's probably my favorite place on Earth, so I'm a bit persnickety on some issues. Before I'd be ok with calling this a guide-level article, we'd need: 1) a more robust drink section; it's not possible for this to be a guide article without, for example, the Stray Dog. 2) Way more eat listings. Petersburg is a great city for foodies and our current coverage is but spittle in the ocean. There should be at least three Uzbek places I can think of, some great Chinese, endless sushi options—I'll at least make a point to add several more really good splurge options. (I hope my places haven't closed, though—I was devastated to hear about my beloved Wooden Pub from 2003!) In general, I'll try and take a closer look at this article over the next week or so, and see what I can help out with via research (and digging through memories). But in short, it's not so much the quality of current content that seems to me a problem, but rather the lack of very significant bits of content.

 * Lastly, we've got a bunch of work going on for this article on the Russian version. When there's enough info there for each of the districts referenced below, I'm planning to translate the content wholesale and districtify this article, and add detailed Wikivoyage street maps. That will probably result in another status change! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:14, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

 * Wanted to add: this site is a great resource for research, if you read Russian. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 10:17, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

Looking at this more, I'm convinced there's just way too much information missing to call this at guide status. A visitor could use this guide and have a great time, no doubt, but there's such an incredible wealth of things to see in this city, and far too few are listed here. Once we get down to the candy colored Church by the Stalinist monument to the Blockade, then I think we'll be approaching guide status. I don't really think we will until we've developed a good 6 usable district articles. On the upside, a lot of work is also going on on the Russian version, from which I'll eventually translate a lot of good material. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:23, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

different from Western world -- StPete or Russia?
Any objections against moving this to Russia?
 * Be warned that, if you are used to living in the US and/or western Europe, Saint Petersburg, as well as the rest of Eastern Europe, will seem very different,and, at times, a bit intimidating.

What is so specific about StPete here that doesn't apply to the rest of Russia? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:57, 24 November 2006 (EST)

Stay Safe section
Judging from a local's point of view, present StaySafe section in present condition extremely dramatizes the real situation. Every fear rumored through a newspaper and every small incident happened once in a decade became like "Always Happen Everywhere Like This, Even More Dramatic Than I Say". I wonder is there anyone watching for this article who supports the current level of dramatization? If I won't hear anything in a week, will try to find few local enthusiasts to make it closer to reality--not sure I have enough time (and energy to argue) alone. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 18:12, 24 November 2006 (EST)

 * Totally agree. "Stay Safe" and "Stay Healthy" section do NOT describe the real situation. Should I mutilate Copenhagen's "Copenhagen remains one of the safest cities in the world" ([]) after some guy tried to rob me near the railway station? No, because it IS typical that one can be robbed. Tourist should take TYPICAL precautions for a BIG city.
 * Yes, police is a problem sometimes, so one should always cary a photocopy of passport(the original is to be kept in the hotel's safe locker). Yes, stay away from Romany people(Gypsies). Yes, watch your pockets -- like everywhere else. Drinking water from the tap is not a good idea, but brushing teeth is bloody okay.
 * Not a great advice, any copy of ID not valid, even marked with notary stamp, but fortunately most of policemans do not aware of that. You should decide what you afraid of more: ID theft or detention. If you are caucasian and good dressed it is very unlikely that you will be asked for ID, so it's better to left it in hotel. If you are dark-skinned, mid-East, asian or just look asocial, I think it's better to keep your ID with you. ID check problem is overstated, I have not beed asked to show ID for years. About water: do not afraid to get intestinal disorder through water, in Petersburg it's heavily disinfected with chemicals and may be contaminated with metals because of bad conduit, so it may be harmful only if you drink this water for years. I may answer questions about Petersburg or Russia in general with citizen pov, feel free to pm me. --Swift.Hg (talk) 00:58, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Forgot to wrote: if your age is near 20 you may be detained in spring and fall by police or militray forces because of conscription. Sometimes they do not care about your ID, they may just seize you and detain. It do not look like a big problem for foreigners, but if you do not have any ID at all, it may be troublesome. --Swift.Hg (talk) 01:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I changed the warning to watch out for street children and Gypsies in this section because it unfairly singled out Gypsies as being criminals. It now says only to watch out for street children. I only wish I could remove the anti-Gypsy slander in the above secion on this Talk page. What is with people that they have to continue the centuries-long demonizaztion of the Romani? User: Spiff666 --198.175.249.10 12:03, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

That's really a very interesting article. Probably I should write a guide on London about the dangers of ethnic criminals, constant fer of muslim terrorist, which are numerous in London, ugly women everywhere and the worst food in the world for pretty solid money. What's really interesting is that the high murder rate does not have anything to do with street crime and "gangs".

Suburbs
I think there's a confusion over the term "suburb" in this article. Suburb is a term used to describe an area adjacent to a city, while no being a part of it. Yet, there's a picture of a street with a clear view of St. Isaac's in the background, that is described as a "suburb". Clearly this is not Sestroretsk. I think that whole portion of the article needs to be re-written.

Stay Safe-pedestrians
I took liberty to revert an edit by 88.88.54.165: --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 06:06, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
 * I believe pedestrian traffic lights info is important for a traveller
 * I didn't find it much useful to say it's just the same as in Eastern Europe and Balkans--any objections?

 * Agreed. Russian drivers are way more aggressive than anything I've seen in E. Europe. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:18, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

 * I found the drivers in Piter almost comically aggressive towards pedestrians. If you try to cross a larger street against a light, drivers will actually rev their engines and aim at you! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:22, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

 * Comical from the driver's seat, perhaps, less so on the receiving end. There also seemed to be a distinct positive correlation between aggressiveness and the expensiveness of the car. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:18, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

 * It's funny, but sometimes they just take care of you, because on broad road you may be hitted at next lane by driver who don't see you and don't give a shit why car at adjacent lane suddenly stopped. Be careful at roads.--Swift.Hg (talk) 01:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Eat
I removed the McDonalds and KFC mentions from this section. I don't think it's appropriate to have multinational junkfood companies on a tourist guide to a Russian city. --HJV
 * I tend to agree, but I'm trying to remember--does McDonalds have free public restrooms in Piter? If so, we should probably put their locations back in for precisely that purpose. Pizza Hut, on the other hand, does better pizza than anywhere I visited in the city (although it's still woefully inadequate) and should stay in the article unless we can come up with better ones. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:45, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

 * As it was, the article didn't have any addresses, making the listings particularly useless... (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:59, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Good point. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:02, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

CoTW
Why is Saint Petersburg still the CoTW? It should have changed about 3 weeks ago. (WT-en) Cupcakecommander 07:37, 24 September 2007 (EDT)

Districts
We are districtifying the Saint Petersburg article on the Russian version, and I thought people might like to see the region breakdown here as well, in case we decide to eventually districtify the English version (which will probably make sense once we have a good base to translate from Russian). We are excluding sections of the Federal District considered suburban towns/cities, which will instead be linked from Saint Petersburg (district).

--(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:31, 7 March 2008 (EST)

 * I have renamed Vyborg Side to North Saint Petersburg in ru:Санкт-Петербург in order to a readers has been mix up with Vyborg Side (historic area more smaller then defined on a map) -- (WT-en) Sergey kudryavtsev 05:57, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

Would anyone object if I go ahead and districtify this article? Despite the fact that we don't have a ton of content (outside of "see") yet? I think I would merge North & Right Bank for the time being, as I'm not sure I could really fill a Right Bank article well. I ask because I'm tempted to finally start working on really turning this into a great guide, and prefer to break things down into more manageable chunks when working on them. We also have a ton of content on the Russian version that I could translate, including district maps. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:04, 23 February 2010 (EST)

 * Peter, and what about our recommendations on when to districtify? ;-) Maybe we could start with filling with enough content and splitting it into subsections within a single article? BTW, as I could see in a minute, Russian version has much content only on See and, for downtown, on Sleep--but otherwise it doesn't add much: every Buy and Eat is merely a list of chain eateries or malls (both of them are quite disputable to list as we saw recently in WT:Listings discussions).

 * But I would definitely be happy to see the article grow significantly. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 00:24, 24 February 2010 (EST)

Forgotten CotW
Here's the CotW suggestions, which kind of got lost in the morass that was the CotW before it was the CotM:

 * Saint Petersburg (Russia) - huge tourist destination and the largest city in northeastern Europe by far, which is way too light on information, but easy to research --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 23:14, 4 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Lots of MoS clean up
 * Lots of famous and less famous sights missing
 * Copy-edit as much of its content was written by non-native speakers
 * Do section is empty, but easy to research—the city has a world-class performing arts scene
 * As a city of 5 million, it might be a good idea to come up with a way to split the city into districts
 * Eat section needs a lot of work—there is a lot of good eating in this city
 * Understand section is very underdeveloped
 * It may be hard to acquire source material compatible with the copyleft, but a city map would be great; a hermitage map would be a big plus as well. If anyone could find suitable source material, I would be glad to do the map myself
 * Here is the official web city guide, with lots of info to mine

--(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:20, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

 * Here is a Saint Petersburg yellow pages directory. It can help you to find a contact information.

And one practical advice to a en-contributors: When i was develop Sleep section ru-article, i found many substitution sites of big hotels  (i.e. non official site ownered by booking agencies) maked professionally and high ranked in search engines. It was very difficult to determinate where official and where non official site. Be very careful with hotels sites. -- (WT-en) Sergey kudryavtsev 02:52, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

Deletion
Hi. I deleted this-

As I could not find any info on it in Russian or English. If anybody does know of it, please write a listing for it. Thanks. --(WT-en) MarinaK 15:32, 8 October 2008 (EDT)MarinaK.

 * Few mentions I found in blogs, if you read Russian:, , . Plus a review found via Google Maps: . I think these opinions make it worth restoring. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:58, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I searched with Yandex Blogs first--it gave me blog entries mentioned above. And then checked Yandex web search and Google--both gives at least tons of reselling agencies. And how have you searched for info on it? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:08, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

 * SPb Yellow Pages list it: (on Russian) with same contacts.
 * PS: I don't have personal opinion about it. -- (WT-en) Sergey kudryavtsev 08:31, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

I've undeleted the original listing in the article. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 03:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I stayed in this hostel in July this year, and I thought it was pretty good. Couple of minutes walk off Nevsky Prospekt, and located above a pub. It should definitely be included here.--(WT-en) CoastOfYemen 07:16, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

I should also say that I stayed in Nordhostel. The only good thing about this place is the location. The access door is hard to find, I wasn't told the number to unlock the door at night, and my mattress was crawling with bedbugs. It's also not the cheapest. --(WT-en) CoastOfYemen 07:22, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

Center?
When locals or UNESCO say "the center", they mean not just the area to the south of the Neva, but something like this. It is certainly not limited to the southern bank. The name of the district is somewhat misleading as it may make the reader believe that Vasilievsky Island and Petrograd Side don't belong to the center. Another issue is that the center as defined here is just too big to be manageable. It would be better to split it into two parts divided by the Fontanka. Hiker (talk) 14:28, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. В.О. and П.С. are very separate entities, and only their small parts can be considered as "city center". Regarding further subdivision into smaller districts, yes, the Center is very big and diverse. It could be split into many different parts, but that's the plan for the future when we have enough information. --Alexander (talk) 15:29, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody disputes that they are separate. But "the center" as defined here includes huge swaths that are no more central than most of VI and PS, thus the name is a misnomer. Hiker (talk) 16:31, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * While not a perfect name, it at least reflects how people use names. "Central Saint Petersburg" is no more accurate a descriptor (actually, it gives me the impression more of the area on the map you linked), but it also has the disadvantage of not being a name anyone actually uses. Russian Wikivoyage also uses Center (Центр). Fortunately, we have a map that should take care of any confusion! Speaking of which, I'll translate the map.
 * Regarding a split using the Fontanka, that's something I essentially did with the maps. I wouldn't object to creating two districts out of the current "Center" article, but what would we call them? --Peter Talk 17:03, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would object. This border looks fine on the map, but it has nothing to do with architecture, transport, etc. The whole western part is basically an area of residential buildings, no matter whether you are above or below the Fontanka river. On the eastern side, the area of Smolny Cathedral has nothing to do with Vladimirskaya-Vitebsky train station. We generally need more than two sub-districts here. But this discussion is premature because we do not have even a single usable article about the Center. --Alexander (talk) 17:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * yes we have!! :P 200.252.135.73 18:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "Central Saint Petersburg" is of course no better than just "the Center" in this respect and quite possibly worse generally, that name was borrowed from . "The Center" is used IRL, but the problem is that it pretty much never refers to this area as a whole, excluding V.I. and P.S, but including everything between the Neva and the Obvodny Canal. I am not sure what map you are talking about, I am afaid that a map can clear confusion only for those who are already familiar with the city. If some casual reader sees that a certain area is designated center, he will probably assume that it is the center, which is currently not quite the case. The yellow area includes a small part that is arguably the most central in some sense, but otherwise it is no more central than some other districts. Should we put the boundaries of the protected cityscape on the map to clarify this? The problem is that they are currently being reviewed, as far as I know. Hiker (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess that while I see your point about the name being a little misleading, I don't think it is much of a problem. If a traveler is at the Strelka and asks a taxi driver to take him back to the "Center," the driver would take him back over the bridge. If a reader is familiar with the city and expects "Center" to mean something other than what we mean, the map (of the districts) will make our definition clear. --Peter Talk 18:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Peter's info is old
I added this in an edit summary regarding edits to "eat," but it probably bears repeating here:

 * My knowledge is 10 years old, and probably needs updating. Also, this needs some examples of high-end restaurants for Russian cuisine.

That's less of a problem for my edits to "see," since sights don't change as much. But it would be most desirable for a current resident/recent tourist to look over and edit the eat section. --Peter Talk 22:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, your info is dated. Shawerma is abundant in every Russian city, although it is more and more known under the international nane "doner", which is supposed to remove bad connotations about rats... SPb has got at least two new chain eateries: SPb (inexpensive pubs) and Brynza (cheburechnaya, although it is not a genuine cheburechnaya from USSR times).
 * What should we do with all these chain eateries? List them in the main article and leave individual addresses/hours to districts? --Alexander (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

 * We can list them in the main article if they're really notable. Otherwise we can leave them out of the main article and put them directly into the district articles, with a short description followed by indented bullets that have only the address/contact details. See "Harold's Chicken Shack" here for an example (which is repeated in many other Chicago district articles). --Peter Talk 18:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Page banners
I am sorry to say that all district banners are very bleak. In my opinion, they need to be improved or replaced with the default image. --Alexander (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree. One of the world's most beautiful cities should only have beautiful banners (at least for the more central districts). I added new ones to Vasilievsky Island and Petrograd Side, and added one to the South. Here are my ideas for the Central district—I have already put one in, but it would be nice to hear other opinions, since I don't feel strongly about one over the other.

 * I've been a little disappointed with the choices on Commons, but this is the best I could do ;) I'll keep looking for banners for the North and for the Right Bank, but if anyone has suggestions, please mention them. --Peter Talk 18:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Ah, found a good one for Saint Petersburg/North, but still need something for the Right Bank. --Peter Talk 18:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

 * And now the Right Bank has one too, so they are all "done." I also considered making one from this photo of the Ice Palace, but I think the Nienschantz Memorial has more character. --Peter Talk 18:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Peter! Not all of the banner are catchy, but in general I like them. I also support your choice for the Central district. --Alexander (talk) 23:09, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Districts of Spb's Center (2014)
Since discussion of districtifying center of Spb has been suggested, I'd come with my variant here. I think that this will be heavily for discussion, and probably it could be easier just divide center in ensembles, which would lead to less disambiguities, but number of districts will be too high in the case. And fair warning: districts names is much for discussion, I don't think that mine are good ones:
 * Inner Center - most touristic one. Every tourist, and every basic excursion over the city as a must will traverse most of it. Borders: Fontanka east of Letnii Sad - Moika (including Ingenerniy Zamok in order not to split ensemble) - Griboedova Channel (including Spas na Krovi) - Gorohovaya st. - Kazanskaya st. - Voznesenskii avenue - Isaakievskaya sq. - Dekabristov sq. (including all the buildings on the west border of last 2 squares)
 * Kolomna. Probably a bit too stretched definition. Borders Inner Center on it's west border until Gorohovaya st., then Gorohovaya st. and Fontanka all the way to the west. It's for discussion, if we include Port and docks there, may be it should be a separate region or mention. Also district is large, may be it can be splitted. It's a nice place with Nikolskii Cathedral as a natural center.
 * Around Gostinyi dvor. Borders Inner Center, Kolomna and Fontanka, includes Gostinyi dvor, Iskusstv sq., Alexandrovskii Theatre, Apraksin dvor.
 * Tauride Garden, Smolnii and vicinity. Fontanka - Belinskogo - Liteynii - Zhukovskogo - Radischeva - Nekrasova - 8th Sovetskaya - Suvorosvkiy - Moiseenko. Entire start of Ligovskiy will go to next district.
 * Around Vosstaniya square. Borders previous district - Fontanka - Borodinskaya - Zvenigorodskaya - Obvodnii channel. A bit large, probably, especially with large part of Nevskii prospekt and "Old Nevskii prospekt". Also I wanted to somehow include Marata-Ligovskii in one district, because it has it's own history. Size is up for discussion though.
 * Beyond Fontanka. Another may be not so fitting name. Fontanka - Borodinskaya - Zvenigorodskaya - Obvodnii - all the way to the west. Arguably less litted with sights, but architecture is still old and venerable. Somewhat lacking a single center, having Vitebsky Train Station, Baltiiskii Train Station and Saint-Troiskiy Izmailovskii Cathedral. SakuraKojima (talk) 19:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Same problem as the Moscow article(s). Don't expect much input here, and don't expect that anyone comes and draws a map, which is crucial for explaining the reader what your districts are. They are again a nice suggestion, but I would put it on hold until we see all attractions on the same map. --Alexander (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe six districts is a lot, and the 'map thing', you have right, but about "input" you said... I will take it, if it has enough info (at least in Russian version) - - Globetrotter19 (talk) 12:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Petersburg


text:
Talk:Saint Petersburg (disambiguation)

Disambiguation
This is a foolish redirection. There's a place in the states called Amsterdam, but that would be just as foolish. --145.99.202.92 05:27, 27 March 2006 (EST)

 * I have to say I agree... (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:28, 27 March 2006 (EST)

 * I'll third the sentiment. If no one objects let's make this one another case of the "most famous" rule. -- (WT-en) Ryan 12:55, 27 March 2006 (EST)

 * I'll disagree. St. Petersburg, Florida is a big city and a big destination. It's not Paris (Arkansas). Searching for "St Petersburg" on Yahoo or Google gives the Florida city for all the first few results. St. Petersburg in Russia is simply not much, much more famous. --(WT-en) Evan 15:10, 27 March 2006 (EST)

 * I don't feel too strongly about this one, but it's worth noting that the St. Petersburg article on Wikipedia is about the Russian city, and from a traveler's standpoint I think that would definitely be the more famous destination. Agreed that the Florida city is a big place and that there are things for a tourist to do there, just not sure if anyone who hasn't been to Florida would ever have heard of it.  But like I said, if anyone has a strong opinion that this should be disambiguated then this is enough of a corner case that I'd defer. -- (WT-en) Ryan 15:24, 27 March 2006 (EST)

 * @Evan; if you search on Санкт-Петербург in Google, it'll give you the russian cultural capital. I think its a bit ethnocentric to claim St. Petersburg (Florida) is as relevant. The most people who will roam Санкт-Петербург will do so in cyrillic. Also, quoting wikipedia on St. Petersburg, Florida, "it was named after Saint Petersburg, Russia, the birthplace of Peter Demens." But I don't know how to do redirects, so could someone please... --145.99.202.92 03:58, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

 * It is absolutely ethnocentric; this is the English-language Wikivoyage, which is written in English, and we need to be responsive to the needs of English speakers and readers. On the Russian Wikivoyage, I'd bet that Санкт-Петербург won't need a disambiguator. But that's not the subject under discussion.

 * Let's make sure that we're talking about the right thing here. We're not talking about whether the Russian city "deserves" the undecorated name, or is more important, or better, or more special or fantastic or precious. We're talking about whether a disambiguation string at the end of the article title is going to be a help or a hindrance. Since there is another notable city with the same name, it is a help, not a hindrance. --(WT-en) Evan 11:35, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

 * Just a note that we now have a "St. Petersburg (disambiguation)" page as the anonymous user above tried to "move" the article by creating a new disambiguation page and then copying the Russian article. If the Russian city is to be the "most famous" then the steps to take would be:

 * Delete the (copied) "St. Petersburg (disambiguation)" article.
 * Move "St. Petersburg" to "St. Petersbury (disambiguation)"
 * Delete "St. Petersburg" (which will be a redirect).
 * Move "St. Petersburg (Russia)" to "St. Petersburg".

 * This approach saves the history of all articles involved. Before doing this, however, we need a consensus that it's the right move.  Evan, you indicated above that you're not OK with this.  Any chance of a change of heart? -- (WT-en) Ryan 04:28, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

 * I have heard of the city in Florida, but would agree that for general travellers, the original one is much more famous than that one. As a minor point, I thought that in modern usage you ignored the fullstop (St rather than St.) -- (WT-en) DanielC 08:31, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

 * It depends on what kind of "general traveler". For a see-the-world traveler or typical European, ye olde Petrograd comes to mind, but for a sun-and-surf traveler or baseball fan in the U.S., the city on Tampa Bay would probably come first.  Keep in mind that A) the City Formerly Known As Leningrad has only been "St. Petersburg" for 15 years (in most of our lifetimes), and B) we yanks are a self-absorbed lot who don't read the newspapers. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:12, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

 * I'm concerned that people keep referring to the "most famous rule", which doesn't exist. With disambiguation, it's not a which-is-more-famous question, it's a which-is-so-much-more-famous-that-it's-not-even-an-issue question. We disambiguate by default, and only leave off the disambiguator when some city is sufficiently more famous than all others such that disambiguating is a hindrance rather than a help. If I had to put a rough number on it, I'd say a place needed an order of magnitude more famosity over all other places with the same name combined for it to be reasonable to drop the disambiguator, and maybe two.

 * So, no, I still don't think we should drop the disambiguator for the Russian city, per the current dab rules. If someone thinks that the Russian city is sufficiently more famous to justify dropping the disambiguator, I'd like to see some evidence. If the rules are wrong, let's change those. --(WT-en) Evan 11:35, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

 * Well, what now? Evan is the only one disagreeing. As the Project:Consensus states, I should just plunge forward, and if Evan really doenst agree, he can undo it? I can't move pages, though, or at least, don't know how to.
 * Regarding the much more famous, I agree, its a matter of opinion, but I'm very sorry that I cannot agree with claiming the surf resort in California ;) is somewhere near as famous as SPB. In the example in Project:Article_naming_conventions, besides Paris, also Los Angeles is being used, which is also a mid sized (~100.000 ) town. Saint Pete has 248,232, SPB has 4,6 and LA 3,8 million. SPB is 19 times as large as St. Pete.
 * Also Wikipedia uses its St. Petersburg page for the Russian 'mega polis', and offers direct disambiguation to the States' fellow.
 * Regarding the Englishness, I've encountered such arguments also on Wikipedia. Do you agree with, or follows Wikivoyage another line? --145.99.202.92 04:37, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

 * Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough: I disagree with you too. The city in the U.S. is famous among our audience as a travel destination.  The question isn't "which has more people?"  The question is whether one of them is so much, much more famous than the other that we can safely assume that almost anyone searching for just "St. Petersburg" on this site is interested in visiting Russia, not the Florida city on the gulf shore with a major league baseball stadium.  You don't have to believe it, but it's true that Florida is a major destination and that in the minds of many English-speaking travelers, that's where "St. Petersburg" is found.  This is not an encyclopedia; it's a travel guide.  So, no: it doesn't have the same guidelines as Wikipedia. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 07:54, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

 * Wikipedia has had a long, long debate about this very same naming issue, and they came up with what, to me, looks like a pretty good compromise: "Saint Petersburg" is the Russian city, but the first-line disambig says "See also St. Petersburg, Florida or St. Petersburg (disambiguation)".

 * As an aside, I wouldn't object to a change in the rules. I think disambiguators are fundamentally evil and should be avoided unless necessary, whereas Evan's stance seems to be that they're the default state of affairs. I'll raise a separate discussion there. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:55, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

While organizing the Russia pages, I was about to just move St Petersburg where it belongs when I saw this. I have to say, having a disambiguation page come up for St Petersburg of all places (a tourist destination so rich I'd put it in the top 10 cities in the world with Paris, New York, etc.) is offensively ethnocentric. And I am as American as they come. Despite being from not so distant DC and having traveled to Florida on more than one occasion, the only context I have ever heard of St Petersburg, FL is when people are jokingly referring to the Florida locale rather than to St Petersburg. If St Petersburg were Miami, I would agree that a disambiguation page would be necessary, but in this case St Petersburg, Russia is much much much more famous than the minor Florida city and this should be represented in the page hierarchy. There should be a disambiguation note under the heading, but the current set up seems ridiculous. Evan, I think you are in the minority on this and are wrong. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 12:38, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

 * Yep, I just came here to see why there was a disamb for this page too... I definitely think the Russian city is much more famous than the FL town. According to our own articles:

 * The FL town is located at the base of the Tampa Bay peninsula in Pinellas County, Florida, and enjoys a more subdued social atmosphere than its larger cousin, Tampa.

 * The Russian city is Russia's cultural and former political capital is home to the Hermitage, arguably the world's best museum, and the city center is a living open air museum in its own right, making this city one of the world's top travel destinations

 * Any change of heart from Todd and Evan? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:54, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I'd like to apologize if my first note here seems too passionate—this sort of got under my skin. But in any rate, this current set up does not seem to me a proper use of disambiguation pages. Anyone who types in "St Petersburg," searching for the Florida locale, expects that they will need to take another step to disambiguate from the Russian destination. On the other hand, anyone typing in "St Petersburg," searching for the Russian destination, is going to be surprised and possibly offended by the disambiguation page. Lastly, I think this might be a good example of taking the Project:The traveller comes first concept too far. I don't think we should be writing a travel guide only for people who get to travel; travel guides are also for those who dream. And the majority of travelers visiting St Petersburg, FL are less likely to read our guide than those who either travel to or simply dream about the real St Petersburg. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 03:35, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * On another note, the notion that our guide is in English, therefore it is proper to be ethnocentric is very misguided. People the world over surf the English language web because it has far more content in greater detail than the web in their native language. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 03:38, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * If we are voting on this, then I 100% throw my support behind St. Petersburg in Russia being the main article and the city in Florida being classed as a disambiguate. As has been stated above, the Russian city is a world treasure and on an international scale can in no way can be compared to its name sake in the US. (WT-en) WindHorse 03:49, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I will lay down in front of a moving tank before I will let you anti-American Russian Communist imperialists take away this disambiguation.* I'll explain my objections later.
 * * May not follow through with my threats and commentators may or may not actually be anti-American Russian Communist imperialists, but probably are. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 03:52, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Ok, now that I'm interested again... I used to be very bothered that this didn't redirect to the Russian city, but now I'm not convinced doing so would be all that helpful. My friends and I went to "Tampa", but we once we got down there we were actually in a metropolis of Clearwater-St. Petersburg-Tampa. As, such if I were planning a trip to Clearwater-St. Petersburg-Tampa (Combined population of 600,000) I'd search for each city individually and would use "Saint Petersburg" in the search. The Russian city has about 4.2 million visitors annually, and I tried to compare that with St. Pete (Florida), but there didn't seem to be any quick references I could use, but I imagine those travelling to "Tampa" may also end up looking for information on Wikivoyage about Saint Petersburg also, that's why I prefer the status quo. There's really no harm in leaving this disambiguation page as-is and changing it may trip up users. Remember, not everyone using Wikivoyage is as savvy as those of us who know how to navigate the site, as Tim Wu demonstrated. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) •
 * OK, but now we are talking about two different issues: 1. whether giving precedence to one city (the most famous) makes it difficult to locate other cities of the same name, and 2. whether St. P (Russia) or St. P (Florida) is the the most popular destination for people using this site. If we concede the first argument, then we should change the system altogether and use a disambiguation page for all cities with the same name, and give none the main article status. However, personally, I wouldn't endorse that as obviously some cities are just so much more famous than their namesakes (eg: Boston, Mass vs Boston, England). As for the second point, if we see this guide as primarily serving the US, then maybe the two St. Petersburgs are on level footing (or perhaps even the Fl city should have precedence). However, if we consider it as a world guide (remember that many of the guides in other languages are far from complete, and as English is a global second language this site will be accessed by people far beyond the borders of the US), then there is no competition as I doubt that more than a very small number of people in Europe, the Indian sub-continent and the Far East have even heard of the Florida city, whereas the historic city on the Neva River is well known throughout the world. Anyway, that my point, but I will obviously bow to the general consensus. (WT-en) WindHorse 23:15, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * The most famous rule and St. Petersburg v. St. Petersburg are essentially the same thing. There's  an indication that the Russian city is slightly more famous than its Floridian counterpart, but both cities are very well known.  Google shows the Russian city with 8,600,000 hits, while the Floridian city has 5,250,000 hits. .  Yes, Google shows the Russian Saint Petersburg is slightly more famous, but this just isn't as clear a case as, say Columbus, Ohio v. Columbus (Georgia) . -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:53, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I believe Windhorse's point is that despite any numbers from Google, outside of the US it's unlikely that people will have ever heard of St. Petersburg, Florida, and as such there would be absolutely no question about whether or not the Russian city should be disambiguated. I don't have much that's new to add to this discussion, so I'll leave it to others to hash out but I am personally strongly in favor of dropping the disambiguator for the Saint Petersburg (Russia) article since for the majority of the world (including much of the US) that is THE Saint Petersburg. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:08, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Besides, Google hits are not at all an accurate measure because there will clearly be more hits for a US city than a Russian one, almost regardless of their comparative size and importance. The US is a wired country with individual sites for just about every restaurant and even individual person, whereas the vast majority of Russians lack personal internet connections. I am an American live in the US, have traveled to Florida several times, and did not actually know there was anything to the FL city other than a stolen famous name until I hit this disambiguator. St Petersburg, Russia, however, is familiar (and I might suggest alluring) to every person in the world who is interested at all in international travel.

 * Even if there were good statistics on visitors per year to both destinations, that still would overestimate the Florida city's importance to our guide. Far more people than those who actually get to travel to St Petersburg, Russia will check out its article simply because it makes for interesting travel reading. Only people who are actually going to the FL city would read its article and I would guess that many such visitors would not even bother to read a travel guide for an American beach resort. This is a good example of why statistics on page-views for our individual articles would be useful, but in their absence, it seems clear to me that common sense prefers we drop the disambiguator. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 11:47, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

 * And furthermore, anyone traveling to the Florida city "expects" to be tripped up by the fact that it has the same name as a very famous travel destination—they are invariably aware of the common name—while someone looking up the Russian city is quite likely unaware of the FL city altogether. No one should be too tripped up if there is a small disambig pointer at the top of the Russian article (e.g., looking for another St Petersburg?), especially since they will be expecting it. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 11:56, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

This is example of why a move would probably be inappropriate. If he can confuse Sydney with Sidney, Montana, then its possible that this disambiguation page would be helpful left as-is. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 17:52, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Instead of pulling dubious stats out of Google hit numbers, or calling our own personal suppositions "common sense", how about some actual research? Such as this U.S. government study, which identifies St.Pete/Tampa as the 13th largest foreign tourism destination in the U.S.?  Ahead of San Jose, Philly, Houston, Fort Lauderdale, Nawlins, Disney-West, Seattle, etc.  Granted, it's only about half of "St.Pete/Tampa" (smaller population but more beachfront), but even by itself St.Pete would still be on par with the Twin Cities or Denver.  Among foreigners, no less.  The home of the Tsars is certainly going to win any sentimental popularity contest over a crowded modern tourist resort (heck, I'd much rather go to Russia too) , but that's not the question, and the objective question of whether St.Pete is the travel-destination equivalent of Lebanon (Kansas), or Paris (Texas)... is a clear "no". - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 20:44, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Many people have raised good points, but we are still no nearer making a decision on this. So, how about everyone taking a vote, and then allow the majority voice to be the deciding factor (closing date 18 May)? Is that an acceptable solution? (WT-en) WindHorse 21:06, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

 * No, it is not. We did reach a decision about this, at least once already.  If you wish to change that, you need to develop a consensus for doing so.  A simple majority vote does not establish a consensus. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 21:18, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Votes make the Evan crazy so please don't go there. I endorse Todd's position.  There are underinformed folks here in the states who will be thinking Florida, and it is a bigtime travel destination, so the "much more famous" rule does not apply. -- (WT-en) Colin 21:21, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

1.In favor of the two St. Petersburgs both having disambiguation status:

2.Establishing the Russian St. Petersburg as main article and the Florida city as a disambiguation:
 * (WT-en) WindHorse 21:06, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

 * No, no, no, no. We're not going down the road Wikipedia has taken — majority rule, rather than consensus rule.  As soon as we start voting then it snowballs and we start voting on other things.  I'm afraid the voting idea is an ineffective option, which effectively permits people to ignore facts in order for their personal preference to become the standard. -- (WT-en) Sapphire �� (Talk) • 21:23, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Hey guys, thanks for your prompt feedback. OK, no votes (and just when I was going to start the primaries rolling. Ha Ha). However, I do wonder, though, whether by using arguments such as 'uninformed Americans' might think of Florida not Russia when searching for St Petersburg as a criteria for deciding this matter are we not sending out a message that this guide is for Americans only. Don't forget that many contributors/readers are from the UK, Australia, India as well as other parts of the world, including Russia itself, no doubt. As English is the second language of the world, I personally view the guide as an international tool for all members of the world community, so whenever I edit an Indian or Nepalese article, for example, I always take into consideration Indian tourists or travelers from other countries, and not only the needs of Americans or even Westerners in general. Am I wrong to do so? In addition, I appreciate Todd finding the stats for the Florida city's foreign tourist ranking. However, I'm still not convinced that St.Petersburg plus Tampa being the 13th most popular destination for foreigner tourists in the US places it on a world ranking with its Russian counterpart. If it were the second or third, maybe - but not the 13th. Anyway, that's my final comment on the matter. As Sapphire said earlier, it is not a major issue, but still it is good to try to reach some kind of consensus. (WT-en) WindHorse 22:21, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

 * It's for uninformed Americans also. The only assumption we should make about people who use this guide is that they read English. Even if their lips move when they do so. A Buccaneers fan who didn't get the memo that Leningrad changed its name (again) has a much right to be taken directly to the city of his favorite baseball team's home stadium, as an afficionado of onion domes is entitled to be taken directly to the city on the Neva: i.e. none. We only skip disambiguation when it's obvious which one people are looking for, and with half a million non-Americans travelling to St.Pete/Tampa every year (not even counting the uninformed Americans), I don't think we can make any such assumption. No one's arguing that St.Pete is necessarily on par with Petrograd, simply that it's also a famous travel destination called Saint Petersburg, so we have to assume... nothing. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 23:06, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Improper disambiguation
I object strongly to this renaming. Both the St Petersburg in Florida and the one in Russia are famous travel destinations, and our naming standards say that in such a situation, each of them should have a disambiguator on them and this page should be just St. Petersburg. It's not that I have anything against Petrograd or hold St Pete dearly in my heart (I found it painfully boring, but I'm not a typical resort tourist); it's just contrary to our standards. Read the comments above; I don't want to repeat myself any further. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:09, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

 * I've moved it to Saint Petersburg (Russia), which I think is the right spot for it (we typically expand St. and Mt. and such). --10:23, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

 * It's absolutely ridiculous to disambiguate this, it should obviously first point to the Russian city. (WT-en) globe-trotter 21:51, 2 January 2010 (EST)

 * You'll have to provide some reasoning for that, I think. Our guideline allows us to avoid disambiguation only when one destination is clearly, far and away, the most famous destination of that name.  The fact that there's an argument here is a strong indication that that is not the case here.  (WT-en) LtPowers 22:04, 2 January 2010 (EST)

 * Just the Hermitage in St. Petersburg already draws 3-4 million travelers annually. And I think it's also a mental thing: St. Petersburg is the second city of Russia and clearly one of the most well-known cities in Europe. I could easily name 30 cities in the US I'd earlier think about than St. Petersburg, Florida. For this reason, Wikipedia also directly points to the Russian city. Odessa also points to the city in Ukraine and not the one in Texas, and Venice also points to the one in Italy. (WT-en) globe-trotter 04:51, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * Wikipedia's standards are different. Our bar has traditionally been set much higher, such that we only avoid disambiguation when one destination is indisputably the most likely target.  (WT-en) LtPowers 08:22, 7 January 2010 (EST)

It still seems very much indisputable to me, for the long list of reasons above. The whole thread on this page blows my mind, and I'm sad to see there is still support for this disambiguation. It's a really embarrassing ethnocentrism, and one that doesn't even make sense from my perspective even if we were writing this guide just for Americans (we're actually writing for the entire English-speaking population of the world). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:23, 7 January 2010 (EST)
 * The city in Florida is a major tourist destination. The fact that the city in Russia is more major is irrelevant based on our standards.  And I don't care for the accusations of ethnocentrism.  (WT-en) LtPowers 13:45, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * .... And much of the city itself is a world heritage site, which given a short glance on the SP,Florida Wikipedia article, hardly is the case for the competitor. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 13:48, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * Saint Petersburg (Florida) is not even listed in the city list of Florida. (WT-en) globe-trotter 13:56, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * In fame and tourism, Russia's St. Petersburg blows away Florida's. Even in Florida alone, St. Petersburg is not the top destination, let alone in the entire world. I like what we did with Panama City. It is the capital of Panama but also a well-known Florida destination (more well-known than St. Petersburg). Rather than linking to a disambiguation page, there is a disclaimer at the top. It's easy to spot.

 * Just like Panama deserves Panama City, I think Russia deserves St. Petersburg. I don't know anyone who hears St. Petersburg and does not think of Russia... (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 14:03, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * No one's saying St. Petersburg, FL, is the top destination in the world, or in Florida for that matter. The point, which was made multiple times from what I've read above, is that it is a significant tourist destination, significant enough that we can't assume a reader is almost certain to be looking for the city in Russia.  Panama City, I'd say, is borderline, but it's hard to compare it directly to St. Pete because the latter is part of a cluster of three popular cities while Panama City is all alone out on the panhandle.  (WT-en) LtPowers 17:06, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * But I disagree that it is significant. The previous discussion mentions google gives Florida, but if you type "Saint petersburg travel" or "guide" or something travel-related, Florida disappears. I'm an American, and I have never heard of St. Petersburg Florida. I think the significance of the Florida city is being augmented, perhaps because some users have been there? The Russian city is on equal footing with Moscow, Prague, Barcelona, (major world cities). The Florida destination? I think only those who research it will know about it. I'm not trying to say that it's not a nice destination; I have no idea. But I still don't buy the argument that this place is significant/important/known to the same or greater degree as Saint Petersburg, Russia. Do Australians know about the Floridian city? South Africans? Brits? Hawaiians? I would bet they will know the name, but associate it with Russia. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 17:47, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * Ultimately, it will only be a matter of one additional click to get to the Florida city—either upon arriving at the default disambiguation page, or by clicking at the "were you looking for Saint Petersburg (Florida)" disambiguatory link at the top of the default article for the Russian city. The big difference is that the current default is going to offend people—it certainly offends me, for more than one reason. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:10, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * One could use that argument for any number of disambiguation pages. A Briton might be offended that Rochester doesn't go straight to the city in Kent, for instance.  But I would question whether his skin might be a bit thin if he was.  Certainly Saint Petersburg is a much more important and popular destination than Rochester, but the same principle applies -- we don't make article naming decisions based on who might be offended.  (WT-en) LtPowers 21:36, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * Wow — in my years on this site, somehow I'd failed to notice this. I'm in disbelief at the current setup — count me firmly in the camp for a "were you looking for Saint Petersburg (Florida)" link at the top, and Saint Petersburg pointing to the Russian city. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:48, 7 January 2010 (EST)

 * The argument that Saint Petersburg (Florida) is significant kinda turns into a moot-point as it isn't even listed in the Florida article. Apparently 9 other cities even in that state are more significant, and Sint Petersburg is not even listed on the Florida map. Now I know Florida has a lot to offer, but the comparison with Panama City (Florida) is striking. Panama City actually redirects to Panama City in Panama, while Panama City in Florida is more important than Sint Petersburg in Florida. On the other hand, St. Petersburg in Russia is way more important than Panama City in Panama. If we use that as example, I think the redirect should definitely go to the city in Russia. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 14:28, 11 January 2010 (EST)

 * I actually think we're coming to a good enough consensus to make this change, although it would be proper to wait a little longer to see if others want to comment and whether holdouts are willing to bow to a pretty broad majority opinion (on a small, but fairly charged issue on the part of those pro-change, it should be said).  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:58, 11 January 2010 (EST)

 * Well since Evan and Todd aren't around I guess I don't have much choice. But I am uncomfortable bowing out simply because my opponents feel strongly (and apparently emotionally) about the issue and I don't.  On another note, I fail to understand Globe-trotter's point about Panama City.  He should know that we do not select "nine cities" based only on how famous they are (and "famousness" is the metric our naming conventions prescribe).  I suspect Saint Petersburg is not on the list of cities for Florida because it's part of the Tampa/St. Pete/Clearwater metro area and Tampa is already listed.  Panama City, on the other hand, is separated from other destinations, and so is included for reasons of geographic representation.  To draw a conclusion from that list of nine cities that Panama City is more famous than St. Petersburg is fallacious.  Unfortunately, I've been unable to find any convenient ordered list of tourism destinations in Florida, so I have little in the way of counterargument.  (WT-en) LtPowers 16:10, 11 January 2010 (EST)
 * a) That's not the point, and b) that's the polar opposite of your position re: Talk:Britain and Ireland, in which case I think those that opposed your change had a much more important policy reason to do so (and yes, I agreed with you there). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:43, 11 January 2010 (EST)
 * "British and Irish Isles" was not my best work. I thought it would be an acceptable compromise but was wrong.  Unfortunately, I don't see much room for compromise here, so I'm not sure how the situations are comparable.  (WT-en) LtPowers 17:01, 11 January 2010 (EST)

 * I don't feel particularly emotional about this issue, but it does seem a bit silly to disambiguate one of the world's most famous cities because a city in Florida attracts a not-insignificant number of visitors (due mostly I suspect to baseball and its proximity to more popular destinations). The argument that no one looking for the Florida city would be surprised to end up at an article for the Russian city (with a disambiguation notice at the top), but that folks looking for the Russian city might be very surprised to end up at the Florida city, seems to me a persuasive argument that in this case a disambiguation is unhelpful. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:16, 11 January 2010 (EST)

 * You're right that geographic distribution probably also plays an important role in that one. But when I read the policy, it is about "famousness". Unfortunately, this is obviously quite a subjective thing, and that's why there's such a big discussion here. Maybe there should be a way of "objectivitying" a discussion like this, or even a policy change that better prescribes what to do in a case like this. I don't think I'm emotional about it (but well, others can decide about that), but I think the Russian city is a whole lot more famous than the one in Florida. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 16:20, 11 January 2010 (EST)

I think we should adapt the policy "If in doubt, follow Wikipedia", when we have someone to argue things to death for us, why not take advantage when we can? :o) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:27, 11 January 2010 (EST)
 * Because Wikipedia isn't writing a travel guide, and the needs are different. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:29, 11 January 2010 (EST)

 * Hence only when in doubt, anyway, I'm all for Saint Pete going directly to the Russian city, if that wasn't obvious by now. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:47, 11 January 2010 (EST)

title: Talk:Saint Petersburg (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Saint Petersburg (Florida)

I was directed to this site but I noticed that Amelita's Spanish Cuban Cafe was not mentioned in the great places to eat great Cuban Sandwiches. I grew up in Ybor City back in the 50s & 60s and I have patterned my restaurant after the small Cafes of that era. Nothing fancy, just a large portion of great tasting food, a friendly atmosphere, and moderately priced so as not to kill the working man. During these economic times a wise man looks for the best value for his hard earned dollar. Come and try the best value in St Pete, before everyone else does.

 * Wikivoyage is a user-edited travel guide; you can make the change yourself! I've added Amelita's, but we need more information on it (location, phone number, hours, price, email or web site) to make it useful. --(WT-en) Evan 14:34, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Please do not double list
I just noticed that there are listings here for hotels, etc. that are located in St. Pete Beach. Please move them to the correct city and do not list a second time where it does not belong. (WT-en) gamweb 20:47, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Should we rename the article?
While the Russian city is usually spelled out in full, I'm pretty sure the Floridian city usually goes by the abbreviated form of St. Petersburg. Eco84 (talk) 11:19, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we should resurrect this discussion. The city's tourism website, and indeed the Wikipedia article, refer to the city as St. Petersburg instead of Saint Petersburg. JRHorse (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I just checked an obvious analogue, St. Louis. If we can use the abbreviation there, sure, why not in this case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:47, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd support this as well, though I think we should add a note at the top of this page, as I'm sure a large proportion of the people looking for the city in Russia will type "St. Petersburg" as the abbreviation. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:55, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI: the Russian city can be spelled St Petersburg, St. Petersburg, or Saint Petersburg; I've seen all three spellings before. No comment about Saint Petersburg, FL, but all I will say is I'm strongly opposed $$\times \infty$$$\infty$ to removing the disambiguator. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 07:10, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Petersburg (Florida)


text:
Talk:Saint Pierre and Miquelon

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Saint Pierre and Miquelon/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (EST)

Great job! --(WT-en) Evan 23:10, 21 Dec 2004 (EST)

Cruise that includes St Pierre
Sable Island Pashley (talk) 05:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be a country article?
Just like most other small outlying islands that still belong to a former colonial power are? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Country article
Shouldn't this be a country article, not a region article? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:12, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Spelling conventions
Since this was missing until now, using British or Canadian spelling? I would go with Canadian spelling due to the close proximity to Canada than Britain. , agree? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think we are going to find a satisfactory answer unless someone goes there. The only source I can find in English is the islands' tourism website, which uses US spelling predominantly, although not exclusively. This could reflect the style of their webmaster, or the use of Google Translate. Officially, SP&M, as a French territory, would follow the French and EU style of using UK spelling. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, okay. I just thought it may be better off using en-CA since 1) proximity to Canada leading them to be written in en-CA 2) We don't always use what France uses for overseas territories (such as French Polynesia). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:18, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Similar situation to New Caledonia I guess (their tourism website by default is Australian english but can be changed into "international english", Italian or Japanese. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:20, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Pierre and Miquelon


text:
Talk:Saint Thomas

Merge content from Charlotte Amalie
As discussed on the old Charlotte Amalie article, there really isn't enough to separate it from St. Thomas in general, so it was agreed to merge that article in here.

Please consider carefully before creating any sub-articles for places in St. Thomas. It just forces readers to visit more pages to get the same information. --(WT-en) BigPeteB 11:52, 2 April 2011 (EDT)

Too much detail on customs?
The Buy section of this article is quite long. There's probably some good info there, but it's hard to find with so much text. I think trimming it will help. Any thoughts?

Also, the stuff about Customs is a) U.S.-citizen specific, b) applies to all of the VI, not just St. Thomas, and c) probably better as a brief summary and a link to a web site. Unless someone has a compelling reason for keeping so much detail, I'll probably move it to the VI article and trim it heavily. --(WT-en) BigPeteB 12:16, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

 * Agree with BigPeteB, and will migrate much content I supplied to the U.S. Virgin Islands article and create links to it in St. Thomas article. Suggest the former also needs more info about all the major islands.  Am unqualified to supply much detail.   (WT-en) Hennejohn 21:53, 15 April 2012 (EDT)

title: Talk:Saint Thomas


text:
Talk:Saint thomas (disambiguation)

this is now an orphan page, I guess. I created a new disambiguation page with a capital T for Thomas, which is now listed on the Project:Links to disambiguating pages page. I nominate this page for deletion. (WT-en) Kire1975 20:53, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Saint thomas (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 06:17, 28 Mar 2005 (EST)

Major Grenadine Islands
I would like to edit and add individual entries for the major Grenadine islands. Namely Bequia, Union Island, Mustique and a few others. As travel to them is more involved then travel to St. Vincent alone, and they have their own identities I think its worth them having their own pages, rather then just St. Vincent. Any thoughts? I am new to Wikivoyage, dont want to step on any toes, would like some discussion before my first edit.

 * Sounds good to me -- Plunge forward! (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:37, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Saint Vincent and the Grenadines


text:
Talk:Sainyabuli Province

What is the rationale for starting province articles for Laos please? I strongly believe this is not necessary and it is introducing an over-fine level of granularity which is not warranted. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:22, 7 June 2011 (EDT)

title: Talk:Sainyabuli Province


text:
Talk:Saipan

What is the cheapest way to get to Saipan from Guam? I know that Freedom Air and Continental Connection/Cape Air make the run but they both charge over $100 round trip for a 45-minute flight on a turboprop which seems a bit overpriced in my book. Are there any ferries or cheaper operators?

Tour and booking site listings
Apart from the don't tout issues, are either of these listings in keeping with the exception guidelines at WV:Tour?

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saipan


text:
Talk:Sa Kaeo

TAT Listings
Added TAT listings to Talk:Sa Kaew/Listings for future reference. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 01:10, 3 February 2010 (EST)

title: Talk:Sa Kaeo