text:
Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

 Welcome to the pub

The travellers' pub is for general discussion on Wikivoyage, and the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. To start a new topic, click the "Add topic" tab, so that it gets added at the bottom of the page, and sign your post by appending four tildes ( ~ )

Before asking a question or making a comment: You can review old Pub discussions in the Travellers' pub/Archives.
 * Have a look at our Help, FAQ and Policies pages.
 * If you are a new user and you have any questions about using the website, try the Arrivals lounge.
 * If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, use the article's talk page to keep the discussion associated with that article.
 * If you'd like to draw attention to a comment to get feedback from other Wikivoyagers, try Requests for comment.
 * If you are wanting travel advice on a specific matter see the tourist office.
 * If you have an issue you need to bring to the attention of an administrator, try Vandalism in progress.
 * If you are having a problem that you think has to do with the MediaWiki software, please post that on Phabricator instead.
 * If you want to celebrate a significant contribution to Wikivoyage by yourself or others, hold a party at Celebrate a contribution.
 * Discuss issues related to more than one language version of Wikivoyage in the Wikivoyage Lounge on Meta.
 * Anything that is Nigeria-related is now meant to go in the Nigeria café instead. Anything that is Kosovo or Albania related is now meant to go in the Kosovo and Albania café instead. This includes announcements, initiatives, celebrations, and issues with certain articles.

Pull up a chair and join in the conversation!

[ Click here to start a new thread]

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

Early access to the night mode (mobile web, logged-in)
Hi everyone, as announced in November, the Web team at the Wikimedia Foundation is working on night mode. A very early version of this feature is now available on a small set of wikis. Because there are active technical editors in your community, we have decided to roll it out here. But don't worry, the new feature is not disruptive! (See the "known limitations" section below.) It's important for us to work together with you before we release this feature to a wider audience. Our goals for the early rollout are to:

 * Show what we've built very early. The earlier you are involved, the more your voices will be reflected in the final version
 * Get your help with flagging bugs, issues, and requests
 * Work with technical editors to adjust various templates and gadgets to the night mode

Go to the project page and the FAQ page to see more information about the basics of this project.

Known limitations of the initial release

 * Currently, night mode is only available on mobile, for logged-in users who have opted into advanced mode, as an opt-in feature.
 * Gadgets may initially not work well with night mode and may have to be updated.
 * Our first goal is making night mode work on articles. Special pages, talk pages, and other namespaces have not been updated to work in night mode yet. We have temporarily disabled night mode on these pages.

What we would like you to do (the broad community)

Consider linking to the Recommendations for night mode compatibility on Wikimedia wikis on pages explaining how to format templates and similar pages. Soon, this page will be marked for translation. We would like to emphasize that the recommendations may evolve. For this reason, we are not suggesting to create your local wiki copies of recommendations. At some point, the copy could become different from the original version.

What we would like you to do (template editors, interface admins, technical editors)

When most bugs are solved, we'll be able to make the night mode available for readers on both desktop and mobile. To make this happen, we need to work together with you on reporting and solving the problems.

 * 1) To turn it on, use the mobile website (for example, this is what the main page looks like on mobile) and go to the settings part of your menu and opt into advanced mode, if you haven't already.  Then, set the color to night. (Later, we will be allowing the device preferences to set night mode automatically).
 * 2) Next, go to different articles and look for issues:
 * 3) * If you have noticed an issue with a template but do not know how to fix it
 * 4) ** Please go to Recommendations for night mode compatibility on Wikimedia wikis and find a relevant example
 * 5) ** If no relevant example is available or you're not sure of the fix, contact us
 * 6) * If you want to debug many templates in night mode
 * 7) ** Go to https://night-mode-checker.wmcloud.org/ and identify templates that need to be fixed. The tool flags the top 100 most read articles.
 * 8) ** Please go to Recommendations for night mode compatibility on Wikimedia wikis and find a relevant example
 * 9) ** If no relevant example is available or you're not sure of the fix, contact us
 * 10) * If you want to identify problems beyond the top 100 articles.
 * 11) ** Install the WCAG color contrast browser extension (Chrome, Firefox) and visit some articles. Use it to identify problems
 * 12) ** Go to the recommendations page and find relevant examples
 * 13) ** If no relevant example is available or you're not sure of the fix, contact us
 * 14) * If you have a bug report for night mode that is not related to templates
 * 15) ** Take a screenshot of what you are observing.
 * 16) ** Contact us. If possible, please write down the names and versions of your browser and operating system.

Thank you. We're looking forward to your opinions and comments! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

 * @SGrabarczuk (WMF), I'm having a problem with https://night-mode-checker.wmcloud.org/enwikivoyage-mobile-light/ When I click one of the names to uncollapse the list of errors, it uncollapses it, and then opens the page on top of the list.  Should that be opening the article in a new tab? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey @WhatamIdoing! Are you asking if the page could be opened in a new tab instead of the same tab? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's one way to solve my problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I see. Well, I was asking because I wasn't sure I understood what the problem was. Could you rephrase the question? SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 23:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As a contributor who would like to resolve problems, I want to look at the list of errors on a page. However, when I go to https://night-mode-checker.wmcloud.org/enwikivoyage-mobile-light/, the list of errors is collapsed.  When I click on (for example) "Main_Page - Total Errors: 12", the Cloud Services tool is immediately overwritten by the Main Page.  I don't want to see the Main Page itself in this tab; I want to see the list of errors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * it's just a bad UI :). You can expand by clicking outside of the links or right click and open in new tab.
 * The list of errors is not too useful out of context to be honest. I would recommend using the browser extension on the pages with a high amount of errors.
 * Szymon - you can talk to Kim about improving the UI while I am out!
 * I think it would be useful to finish up my video too. Jdlrobson (talk) 10:32, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to turn on dark mode on desktop? Special:Preferences doesn't have anything for me. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 06:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello @SHB2000, great question. It's too early to enable it on desktop. We'll roll it out on more wikis on mobile, and then on desktop, as a beta feature. You may read more about this in our FAQ. There's a table there with all the details. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's all good. I do like the look of it on mobile, though. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If people can opt in on mobile and let me know via my talk page if you see any articles that look broken I will be happy to get those fixed. The top 100 most read are looking good so hopefully this will be on desktop soon. Jdlrobson (talk) 16:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I notice Template:Infobox is broken, not displaying content, e.g. see the one under United States of America. Was it this edit? Brycehughes (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Seems it was. I rolled it back but now the HTML table styling is off. Brycehughes (talk) 15:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

At the German Wikivoyage, we are using the solution of the English Wikipedia for desktop computers. It is working well (now only for logged-in readers). --RolandUnger (talk) 16:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Vote now to select members of the first U4C

 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Dear all,

I am writing to you to let you know the voting period for the Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is open now through May 9, 2024. Read the information on the voting page on Meta-wiki to learn more about voting and voter eligibility.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members were invited to submit their applications for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please review the U4C Charter.

Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.

On behalf of the UCoC project team,

RamzyM (WMF) 20:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

 * A great day for Wikimedia! -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 22:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Third party overlays
Hey All, we at Wiki Project Med, built a gadget that pulls in Our World in Data similar to how maps here pull in topography after users agree to a consent popup.

Appears some within the WMF have issues with this functionality. The link for anyone who wants to weight in. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 * This is specifically referring to the Mapnik layer, right? -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 22:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Basically if you go under layers, we see 6 external options (mapnik is one) which will appear after consent for sharing your IP is given. The ability to do this is under discussion. Travel Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I've commented on the discussion in question. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 03:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * So did I. However, the underlying problem, whether we should trust the external site, is complicated and the discussion seems to be about whether the gadget is important enough, and consenting by clicking OK enough, that privacy issues should be ignored. I think the only defendable way forward is to evaluate the privacy issues themselves, which is complicated. –LPfi (talk) 10:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikivoyage and WikiForHumanRights
Today, there was a presentation by the Wikimedia Foundation discussing the potential integration of Wikivoyage into this year's WikiForHumanRights campaign. While I may have some reservations about how Wikivoyage can be effectively integrated, there appears to be a strong interest from various individuals and groups in developing associated initiatives. Perhaps we could offer our ideas to help make the initiative more successful for the community, or we could simply monitor Wikivoyage to see if any campaign activities unfold. The presentation slides are also accessible for further reference. Best, Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 17:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

 * The problem is that new editors that come here because of the campaign will have difficulties adding any content in a way that truly integrates with how we do things. If there are seasons wikivoyagers who want to add that aspect to articles, I suppose they can do that in a way that doesn't cause problems, and they could educate newcomers that cooperate with them. However, people who are interesting in adding certain content rather than first learning about the site do cause problems.
 * The slide show tells about NPOV, citing sources and using quote marks for quotations. They suggest "weekend getaway" as a theme for an itinerary. They give advice on the "Get out" section. Did they at all check with some seasoned wikivoyager? (The presentation might be good otherwise, but such details make one wonder.)
 * Regarding the sustainability and Human Rights, the slide show gives tips on what issues could be described, but doesn't tell where at Wikivoyage it can be put. Sustainability certified businesses can of course be added to Eat, Do etc. (which they present), but for more complicated issues, good models are needed. If the project is to be launched, somebody should find or write articles (parts of) which can be linked as good examples.
 * –LPfi (talk) 18:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * From that presentation I can't tell if WMF has too much money or not enough money. Brycehughes (talk) 19:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In fact, none of the presentation was consulted with any seasoned wikivoyager, hence the “community consultation” here. Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 19:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If the session wants to "empower organizers and participants on how they can contribute sustainability topics to Wikivoyage", then having wikivoyagers involved should be an obviously good idea. I hope they realise that, but they should have included that in the preparations and in the "Immediate Next Steps?" It seems there is even no recommendation on notifying us, just the campaign in a format where it isn't clear whether somebody intends to target us. If the individual projects start contributing without discussing their ideas with us first, it will probably be a frustrating experience for all parties (except, perhaps, those just adding relevant listings). –LPfi (talk) 19:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey all: thanks for starting this conversation! This was a pilot training that we coorganized with some of the volunteer African community organizers, after they asked for a practical introduction to how WikiVoyage works. Local event organizers are responsible for coordinating and responding to the work happening on wiki. We will make sure that local organizers do, if they work on WikiVoyage. If you have specific feedback on the slide deck, this is the first time I have supported a WikiVoyage training, and we were focused on coordination for the volunteer communities and trainers. We still have time to disseminate more accurate or more specific "first activities" for local communities if that is helpful. I am looking forward to learning more about the specifics of feedback or critiques, Astinson (WMF) (talk) 20:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Phrasing issues:
 * NPOV: our policy is Be fair, which isn't the same.
 * Citing sources: we usually don't cite sources in mainspace. We don't require reliable sources, personal experience counts as just as good for most info. Where a statement risks being disputed, a source can be cited in the edit summary, on the talk page or as a HTML comment, or some discussion provided. On the other hand, we use external links for further reading, see External links.
 * We don't use multimedia, just images (and audio for pronunciation in certain contexts).
 * We use direct quotes very sparingly, I think only in travel topic articles and then using quote.
 * The style: I think the phrasing in the slide show did not very well convey Tone.
 * Get out: we use Go next, I think Get out is what was (is) used on WT.

 * I think any plans on contributing en masse need to be discussed with us. The Nigeria Expedition had a lot of issues, which probably will be repeated if people clump in adding content without understanding our expectations. Despite some mentoring, there were copyright issues, duplicated content (hard to maintain and apparently often misleading), articles created to get competition points rather than to share information, and so on.

 * The last part of the slide show presents "how to contribute climate change and sustainability topics". However, it says nothing about how these topics can be treated on Wikivoyage. I think most of that needs to be worked out together with us. We have Sustainable travel and Responsible travel, which could be developed further. For individual destinations and listings, these issues might easily get undue weight; a good sense of style is needed. Examples would help, but those need to be found or created, and pointed out to the project participants.

 * –LPfi (talk) 21:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't understand why the "Go next" section would be particularly focused on. That section is about where to travel to next after the subject of the article (so, for example, where to travel to after you visit Lagos, Conakry or what have you), so it's weird for that to be the main focus of a project that seeks new editors for this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * To add, re sections: "Events" is an optional subsection which falls under "Do". "Buy" isn't limited to souvenirs. Museums usually go under "See", not "Learn". Very rarely "Itineraries" is a subsection under "See", but it's not typical. "Cope" is mostly entirely wrong: Local customs generally go under "Respect"; safety considerations under "Stay safe"; and communication tips under "Talk". And the sections used vary depending on the article template. Brycehughes (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Articles on events are also very rare. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 21:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have similar concerns as LPfi. Although I have hope that this expedition will be much better than the ill-intentioned Africa Expedition (which just sucked in every way possible for every party involved), it would be nice if at least a seasoned editor explains what needs to happen and the like. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 12:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the Africa Expedition was very well-intentioned. They ran into some problems, but they intended only good things. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, all that copyright violation and posting the same general information in dozens of articles with no specifics about the towns in question was "well-intentioned," if what you mean by that is that the intention of getting points for edits was a good goal to have. Sorry, but I think a lot of the users didn't have very constructive motivations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Still, the expedition was well-intended. The problematic point system attracting people who gamed it, was a pure mistake, I believe. –LPfi (talk) 07:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we're all in agreement here that the last expedition by them did not have ideal outcomes except for the wordings here, which is fine. At least that's how I am interpreting this thread. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 08:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I read the slides in detail and have these comments (I avoid comments that are already said above).

Good: Increasing our coverage of national parks, wildlife, phrasebooks, climate chart, listing reliable online sources to obtain info, adding prices, improving "buy" and "cope" (local etiquette) sections

Bad: Why is page 8 of the slide still using old Wikivoyage logo? It is missing the mentioning of the crucial "the traveller comes first" rule, which guides decision making on what content to include and exclude. And please do consultation with the community before you make a presentation, not doing it afterwards as a checkbox exercise.

Ugly(?): Itinerary is a touchy topic and new editors should avoid writing suggested itinerary on "budget travel, weekend getaway, family vacation". Likewise, what constitutes to be "sustainable" or "low impact" in one region/country may be deemed to be destructive in other places (e.g. seal hunting is sustainable, supports local economy and a constitutional right for Indigenous hunters in northern Canada, yet European Union places an import ban on seal products). Is this human rights debate suitable in Wikivoyage? Probably not. OhanaUnitedTalk page 17:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Just a heads up, I didn't create the presentation, but I did participate in it. After noticing some key details that indicated there wasn't much experience with Wikivoyage, I took it upon myself to provide some feedback. I wanted the campaign organizers to understand the potential pros and cons of incorporating Wikivoyage, as decided by the community. Honestly, I couldn't see how Wikivoyage could fit into a human rights campaign. Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 01:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have even thought of the idea that you could have somehow been at fault. I hope some of the organizers read the feedback we've given them, because this project is likely to create a big headache here and result in a lot of person hours devoted to reverting edits and posting remarks about Wikivoyage policies, guidelines and goals to user talk pages that I daresay will probably be ignored most of the time, resulting in blocks. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I wonder if we could mitigate this by writing a special customized welcome message purely for this expedition? (in contrast to our standard welcome or wikipedian) -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 03:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If needed, create a letter from the community requesting more attention to non-Wikipedia communities. Ask for help from experienced volunteers before making any decisions. These things may seem like common sense, but they are often overlooked. Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 04:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's unfortunate that a lot of Wikipedia user groups don't care about anything other than Wikipedia. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 04:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For the campaign to be successful, it needs participation from Wikivoyagers, like in the Nigeria expedition. If we don't find people willing to put time in that, then the campaign should stay away. –LPfi (talk) 07:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * At the very least, it needs extensive consultation, similar to what the Wikimedians of Albanian Language User Group have been doing for the past few years. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 08:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, WikiSP also had community consultations before rolling out Wikivoyage 10 and, even though it didn't happen, Wikivoyage 11. Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 17:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all for the discussions and insightful comments. I see a great opportunity to tap into the knowledge from experts from Wiki Voyage. I am the #Wikiforhumanrights regional coordinator for Anglophone Africa, and would love to have someone show us high quality direct edits about these topics on WikiVoyage. Wikimedians are hungry to do something new this year and WikiVoyage presented a great opportunity for other ways of contribution. We will be hosting office hours this month for the community and we will be glad to host any of the experts from Wiki Voyage. Please kindly reach out to me and we can schedule a time together. Your support is greatly appreciated. Ruby D-Brown (talk) 16:28, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Hi @Ruby D-Brown, thanks for your note, and thanks for starting Somanya earlier this week. It looks like you still have some work to do there, but I'm going to start by pinging @PPelberg (WMF) to say that you seem to have uncoverred a software bug in the visual editor.  You ended up with an interwiki link in the second sentence, and I don't think that should be easy to do in the visual editor.  It should have given you a proper link  and also not screwed up the character formatting for the rest of the paragraph.
 * I'll have a go at cleaning up the article in a few minutes. That might give you some ideas about what we're looking for.  (Please correct any errors I introduce; I've never been to Ghana before.)
 * Additionally, I wonder if other folks would be willing to show off a favorite edit or two. Ruby's uploaded hundreds of photos to Commons and made a couple thousand edits, so I think that if we all posted a few diffs that we're proud of, she'd get an idea of what we value.  I'll start:
 * add a listing – This is a pretty simple task, but I'm proud of this edit because it's a little inn that bans smoking and pets and avoids scented cleaning products, so people with allergies might benefit from this. It's good for us to find and point out special circumstances like this.
 * removed a listing – This is a very simple task, if you know the business has closed. It's important to remove bad information.
 * added context – This is a travel topic article about a US holiday, and I added information that one group of travelers from outside the US would want to know (in this case, that business trips are probably a bad idea during that week).
 * Check back in about an hour to see what I've done with Somanya. I'll try to leave clear edit summaries in the article history so you can follow along with my thinking. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much @WhatamIdoing for the useful feedback. This is very much appreciated. As a new editor on Wiki Voyage this feedback is definitely what I need to get it going. I see the changes you made and truly appreciate you taking your time to help improve it. I get a better see of what is expected now. Would you mind joining us on online to offer us some practical training? Let me kindly know what you think.Ruby D-Brown (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It looks like your office hours are all at 15:00 UTC, which is not a good match for my schedule. (If someone else is interested, 15:00 UTC is 5:00 p.m. in Paris, 11:00 a.m. in New York, and 8:00 a.m. in California.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We can adjust if we have to. What time durations usually works on a Friday. We are hoping to start the office hour next week. Alternatively we can host this session separately as part 2 of the first training we had. Let me kindly know if this sounds good and what your thoughts are.
 * thank you. Ruby D-Brown (talk) 17:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The next month is busy for me, so I can't commit to doing any of these. In general, though, starting an hour or two later on Fridays would probably work for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @ WhatamIdoing (talk) . This is well noted and thank you for your reply once again. We will love for you to propose a date that will be convent for you and we can arrange for that time. Let me kindly know what you think.
 * Ruby D-Brown (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

When should the "Huge city" template be used?
I was under the impression it was self-evident that the Huge city template should be used only for, y'know, huge cities (in population/attractions, not land area), but based on the discussion at Talk:Miyoshi (Tokushima), a slab of rural Japan that became a "city" in 2005 and is now districtified, this is not the case. Please help set policy for this at Wikivoyage talk:Geographical hierarchy. Jpatokal (talk) 12:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Whether something should be a region with city articles or a city with district articles is a judgement call, which isn't too much about whether the destination is a city administratively (neither London nor Paris is, to make that point clear). If there are a number of cities and towns with countryside in-between, calling it a city is a stretch, but I suppose that's what e.g. L.A. is like. I think it boils down to whether locals or the traveller would be surprised by us calling the place a city, or rather, whether a visitor would feel betrayed by us doing so. –LPfi (talk) 15:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Where is the countryside in L.A.? In some of the hills? It's mostly (sub)urban sprawl. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the endless suburbia in LA? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:13, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. Los Angeles includes Antelope Valley and Santa Clarita Valley. I haven't been there, but the articles give the feel that there is quite some countryside and even non-developed country amidst the sprawl. —The preceding comment was added by LPfi (talk • contribs) 05:51, May 16, 2024
 * I've been to LA quite a few times (my cousin lives there) and almost all of the endless suburbs of both Antelope and Santa Clarita Valleys are continuous with the main core of LA. I guess that's the byproduct of a city bulldozed for the car. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I had the same qualms about Buffalo. From what I picked up it seems to be determined by the amount of information editors (past or present) have bothered to add, rather than any intrinsic quality. (I'm not subtly being negative here this is just what I gathered.) Brycehughes (talk) 03:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

 * If the "huge city" template cannot be used when districts are warranted simply because of the name, which it seems some number of editors believe deeply to be true, then the template name should be changed to eliminate this problem and the protective attitude towards the template. Districtification should not be such a deeply personal thing. If a city/town/village has enough content to warrant districts, it should not be controversial to divide it into those districts. We should not be having discussions about how to avoid districtifying due to a template name. It's so wild to me to read entire article creation philosophies based solely around the name of this template when no one minds non-cities being called "cities". Perhaps there's a name that would be better suited, maybe something like "districted city" which is more literal and more about the state of the article ("it's districted") rather than a statement that some are interpreting to be about the city itself ("huge city")? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:42, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Except what could we name it to? The genie is out of the bottle; I can't think of a better name for such instances. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 11:37, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I proposed "Districted City" as a first thought. The reason being that it describes the state of the article rather than the city. You and others would need to state if you think "districted city" would change how people think about it. Or someone can propose another name, but I do think something that describes the state of the article rather than the city itself is probably important in neutralizing attitudes about districts. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That could work, but it seems a bit too technical for me. It's the same argument why we call tiny tucked-away villages as "cities" on Wikivoyage. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 12:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't really see how this proposal has anything to do with Miyoshi (Tokushima), the article that started this discussion. The concern there, as far as I can tell, is that the place is a rural region and possibly shouldn't be a city article at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has suggested turning Miyoshi into a non-districted city article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No. The real question is whether the article should be huge city, region or extraregion. –LPfi (talk) 09:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The entire discussion began on the talk page of Miyoshi (Tokushima) with the statement that it's "not a huge city in any sense of the word". The proposals to create regions/extraregions all stem from the desire to avoid calling it a "huge city" when it is not viewed to be one. The "rural region" argument was made to say it's not a huge city. The template name is lending itself to these arguments. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So it may do, but either whether to call it a region or a huge city is about what that tells about its place in our region structure or the wish to call or not to call the place a city. Jpatokal claims that the area isn't a city but several with countryside in-between. I don't know whether the area is one, but it seems that the disagreement indeed is about that. If you think the huge city structure suites better for other reasons, please spell out those arguments. –LPfi (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We could solve all these problems by removing the names and just numbering them. "Region" could become the article type "3", and "Big region" could become "3.2".  Then we'd never have another discussion about whether this is "really" a city.   WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * But we'd argue "you cannot use type 2, that's for cities" :-) –LPfi (talk) 09:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We'd have to define "Type 4 is for a destination with places to sleep and eat and something to do. Most commonly, this is a city, town, or similar populated place, but this list of suggested sections can also be used for rural areas and parks."
 * And maybe put "Use the template whose sections matches what you want to put in the article, no matter what it's called" at the top of the page.
 * (And on the talk page, we can tell editors that every time experienced editor starts a dispute over something like "Type 4 is for cities, so you can't use that for that subject", we'll add intensifying formatting – repeated copies, bold text, colored highlighting, exclamation marks, the name of the editor(s) who needs to stop saying these things, a Javascript gadget that requires anyone reading the page to agree that they won't say that, etc. – until people get the message. It's good to ask whether ____ matches the subject matter; it's bad if our shorthand labels get in the way of people who are trying to do the right thing.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd be satisfied with something like "District city", but some of the concerns about the "inaccurate" name might go away if we called it a "____ article" instead of a "_____ city". We use this template when our content is huge, not when the destination is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think "districted city" is OK. That phrase would appear only in template and guideline names. The question about the naming is about the phrase in PrintDistricts:
 * "X is a huge city with several district articles that contain information about specific sights, restaurants, and accommodation."
 * There is really no need to use the technical term in that sentence. We could as well say:
 * The information about X is split over several "district" articles. This page contains a summary and common information."
 * –LPfi (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The latter (your wording) could also work, and that avoids technical jargon for the most part. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 09:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

 * There are 2 proposals discussed separately above. There is the new name ("districted city") and there is a number proposal. Any comments regarding which is preferred? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Three if you include LPfi's proposal which is to just change the wording on PrintDistricts. This is the proposal that I favor. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 11:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought LPfi's suggestion was part of the "districted city" proposal discussion. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

 * [edit conflict] I don't think we really have any problem with the labels, other than when used in the visible article text, and I think verbal labels are easier to grasp than numbers. The case at hand is more about grouping locations in the region article and having clumsy links – or more generally: when to use the article type in question – than about what the article type is called. Thus I don't see a need to start using numbers instead, and I fear that would be a big operation with quite some side effects that we don't see clearly yet. –LPfi (talk) 11:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with LPfi. The number idea is not intuitive and will be hard for many editors to grasp and apply uniformly. I think LPfi's suggestion to simply change the wording on PrintDistricts makes a lot of sense and is the suggestion I would support. Mrkstvns (talk) 14:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I support the wording changes, as well. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 03:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sign up for the language community meeting on May 31st, 16:00 UTC
Hello all,

The next language community meeting is scheduled in a few weeks - May 31st at 16:00 UTC. If you're interested, you can sign up on this wiki page.

This is a participant-driven meeting, where we share language-specific updates related to various projects, collectively discuss technical issues related to language wikis, and work together to find possible solutions. For example, in the last meeting, the topics included the machine translation service (MinT) and the languages and models it currently supports, localization efforts from the Kiwix team, and technical challenges with numerical sorting in files used on Bengali Wikisource.

Do you have any ideas for topics to share technical updates related to your project? Any problems that you would like to bring for discussion during the meeting? Do you need interpretation support from English to another language? Please reach out to me at ssethi(__AT__)wikimedia.org and add agenda items to the document here.

We look forward to your participation!

MediaWiki message delivery 21:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

 * This is Language Engineering, so anyone interested in tech problems related to language should try to attend.
 * It looks like one of the organizers speaks Spanish. The offer for interpretation is real – they'll hire someone to translate to/from your language if they can – but please e-mail Srishti right away.  It sometimes takes two weeks to get a translator scheduled, and the event is about two weeks away. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Significant problems with the listing editor
I've noticed two new, significant bugs in the listing editor. If I edit a listing and don't add latitude and longitude coordinates, it automatically saves the incorrect coordinates 0, 0. And it adds an unnecessary period (full stop) to the end of the description. Examples:. Has there been a recent change that created these bugs? —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Hey all. The listing editor should now be fixed for the adding period and coordinates bugs.
 * The beta has a potential fix for Wikidata sync. If you use it, please enable the beta mode and let me know if it's working for you!
 * Thanks in advance! Jdlrobson (talk) 02:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the problem started within the past 24 hours – I don't see evidence of it in edits from before that. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I've rolled back for now. But i really really really need some beta testers for the beta version of the gadget as the existing gadget will completely break in the next week due to some upstream changes in the software and we need to make this change in the next 7 days. This version has been available beta since January so bugs shouldnt be occurring at this stage.
 * Any volunteers for helping me test it and reporting bugs like this? Jdlrobson (talk) 06:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for the former issue, but the full stop/period issue is something I've known for quite a while – I thought it was the standard, but I may indeed be wrong (and will appreciate if that "feature" was removed). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 09:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It hasn't been adding the period for me. For hours etc., the template adds periods, but the editor doesn't, and for content (as in the examples), it's up to you to add it. If the editor is to help with that, it should at least check whether the last (non-blank) character already is a period. –LPfi (talk) 10:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. For some reason, the beta version wasn't on my radar until now. I've just enabled it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * While we're on the topic, I'm finding that the "Sync shared fields to/from Wikidata" doesn't seem to work in either version of the editor. When I click the link, nothing happens. I'm using Firefox on a Mac. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping to have a look at this by the end of the week. I'll make sure the "." is no longer added and will investigate the coordinates issue.
 * Just to check I fully understand, are these bugs present in both the beta and the normal version or just the beta? Jdlrobson (talk) 02:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * They seem to be present in both versions. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that "Sync shared fields to/from Wikidata" is also broken on my side (desktop, Firefox browser). OhanaUnitedTalk page 15:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikidata sync doesn't work for me either. --Renek78 (talk) 21:38, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The beta has a potential fix for Wikidata sync. If you use it, please enable the beta mode and let me know if it's working for you! Thanks in advance! Jdlrobson (talk) 02:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing the periods and coordinates! I'm using the beta version, and I'll try syncing with Wikidata next time I have an opportunity. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Jdlrobson, Wikidata syncing seems to be working in beta mode. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:33, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay I'm going to sync the two versions now! Thanks for letting me know! Jdlrobson (talk) 16:15, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

There’s another problem now. For some reason, whenever I add a new listing using the listing editor, the listing appears at the top of the article instead of in the section I was trying to put it in (see my recent edits on Tangshan). STW932 (talk) 16:20, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I’ve also noticed that nothing seems to happen when I press the ‘edit’ button for individual listings. Is anyone else experiencing that problem? STW932 (talk) 16:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you using Vector classic, Monobook, Timeless or Modern skin by any chance? Jdlrobson (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * (and if so.. could you see if the bug occurs in Vector 2022? There was an upstream change to MediaWiki that I want to rule out as the source of this bug!) Thanks in advance! Jdlrobson (talk) 20:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * (It should hopefully be fixed now if that was the use case!) Jdlrobson (talk) 21:14, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m not actually familiar with any of those skins. I’m just using whatever the default settings happen to be on my Safari browser. But the problem is now fixed. Thank you. STW932 (talk) 07:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

During my demonstration in today's Toronto meetup, I wasn't able to demonstrate "sync shared fields to/from Wikidata" button in the listing editor to new WV users. It appears to be broken again. On the other hand, the "quick fetch" produced the pop-up box which tells me that the code is partially working. OhanaUnitedTalk page 02:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Dark mode is available on desktop
In case you didn't see, dark mode is now available on desktop via beta features. If you are using Vector 2022, you can enable "Accessibility for Reading (Vector 2022)" and try it out via the sidebar menu or goggles icon.

Let me know on my user page or here if you discover any templates which are not looking great in dark mode and we will get those fixed ASAP! Jdlrobson (talk) 02:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Is it available if you're using the 2010 vector? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 04:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No. 2010 Vector is not actively developed on any more. Dark mode could theoretically be added at some future date but it would likely need significant work. Jdlrobson (talk) 18:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * How is Meta able to add a dark mode on the 2010 vector, but not us? Surely there has to be some way to do it. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Aren't they just using a gadget like w:en:Wikipedia:Dark mode (gadget)? There have always been a few attempts at doing this by user script; they just don't always work out well. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes; is there a way to make the gadget global or implement this on this wiki? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 00:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Usually it's best to have a couple of people use the scripts locally before making them a gadget. ("Global gadgets" don't really exist.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * True; I'm just used to calling them "global gadgets" which to me is anything you can add to m:Special:MyPage/global.js. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:35, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In that case, all user scripts are global gadgets. ;-)  You can put any script you want in there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * me who has German plain text on every wiki without SpBot :-( (I mostly just ignore it, but on the wikis that do have it, it's an amazing tool). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 00:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Issues with dynamic maps
Some district boundaries in dynamic maps fetched via Wikidata IDs do not display properly. For example, the outline of Belém (Wikidata ID Q18500330) is not rendered, even though the relation in OpenStreetMap is clean. Any ideas on how to fix this issue? Renek78 (talk) 21:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I get the same issue with Cessnock on Hunter. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 00:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's the usual - either some fluke in the osm parser of kartographer, or some temporary osm inconsistency. If it's the first, you either wait or report to phabricator. I doubt you will find someone here... -- andree 17:27, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Process for bypassing VPN restrictions
What is the process for good users to bypass the IP-based mediawiki restrictions that prevent us from editing wikivoyage articles over a commercial VPN or Tor connection?

> Your IP address has been blocked from editing Wikivoyage

For safety reasons, I never have sex without using a condom. Likewise, I never use the Internet without using a VPN or Tor. These technologies protect users online. This is especially important for at-risk users editing wikivoyage, who may be disclosing their physical location when, for example, adding a hotel to a wikiovyage article. For this reason, it's important that they're able to edit anonymously. Security experts recommend using a VPN (or Tor) for such users to use the Internet safely.

These IP-Based restrictions should definitely be in-place for non-logged-in users, but I think we can all agree that logged-in users in good standing should not have IP-Based block restrictions applied to their accounts. And I would argue that all logged-in users should not have IP-Based restrictions applied to their accounts.

I'm familiar with spammers, but spam is a non-issue if user account creation is well-controlled.

I'm opening this thread because I searched the wiki and I could not find any official policy around users using VPNs or Tor -- or an official process for them to be able to bypass those restrictions. The only thing I did find was a user struggling to make an edit -- and the suggested troubleshooting included clearing cookies, using "private browser" mode, and using a VPN -- all great advice.

Wikipedia recognizes that many users need to use VPNs to protect themselves. As such, wikipedia created WP:IPBLOCK for users who need to be able to use tools like VPNs or Tor to be able to do so.

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption

Personally, I'd prefer wikivoyage to dissolve all IP-based blocks for logged-in users rather than on a as-approved basis. But, a process for being added to an IPBLOCK exempt list is better than nothing.

What is the current policy of wikivoyage around VPNs, Tor, and other proxy tools that at-risk users use to protect themselves online? And what is the current process by which a new or existing user in good standing can get exempt from such IP-blocks? MercifulCarriage (talk) 20:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 * You can request IPBE here, but very rarely do we range block open proxies here – if you are affected, more likely than not, you'd be blocked via a global IP range block (GIPBE can be requested at SRGP). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Over-touristed cities
Wolters World has a new video mentioning eight over-touristed places in Europe (spoiler: Venice, Amalfi Coast, Barcelona, Paris, Dublin, Dubrovnik, Athens and Amsterdam), and gives some advice how to avoid the worst crowds; visiting off-season, other times of the day, or staying in less crowded districts, or underrated neighbor cities. Does Wikivoyage give enough advice for how to visit these places? Responsible travel could address the issue with more detail. In some cities, a few streets and venues are overcrowded; the Stockholm history tour and other Stockholm walking tours avoid Västerlånggatan for this reason. /Yvwv (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Responsible travel + some advice in each of the city articles would be the best way to handle this. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 00:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's such a judgement call. Every time I go to Paris I just hang out in the outer arrondisements (I have no idea how to spell that) and I see no other tourists. Brycehughes (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's the advice to visit less touristed districts. But there are lots of tourists going there to (try to) see Mona Lisa, climb the Eiffel Tower and visit Notre Dame. Those should reconsider. Some might of course be art students who really want to see how Mona Lisa was painted, but then they should work out a way to have a look not as part of the crowd (and would spend at least a few days at the Louvre), or they might be the persons who just wants to have those off their checklist – in the latter case, I don't know what advice to give. –LPfi (talk) 08:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think those tourists should reconsider, except inasmuch as if you're going to the Louvre  only  to see the Mona Lisa, you're stupid or at least grossly misguided. Some top-10 sights are rated that way for good reasons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Lots of articles say things like "Skip the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre" with advice on where to go instead, and while the suggested alternatives may be worth adding to an itinerary, I don't think they genuinely discourage people from visiting the places they really want to visit. I think it is more helpful to explain how overtourism has changed the situation at popular places. For example, if overtourism has led to 2 hour waiting lines at a museum when previously it was 20 minutes, that is much more useful than saying "There's overtourism at the museum, so just avoid it". A 2 hour wait is more likely to give travelers pause than just mentioning "overtourism". "Overtourism" has also become such a buzz word, I feel like it is sometimes used just to smear foreigners and tourists. I much prefer to know exactly how travel conditions have changed. That is what would make me reconsider visiting somewhere (or plan to visit during a time that seems less busy). ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Many big cities have the infrastructure to handle myriads of tourists, parallel to their citizens. Small towns and wilderness can be more sensitive. I went to Paris in December, to Rome in January and to Barcelona (near Camp Nou) in March when there was not a game day; visiting off-season tends to make a popular city look deserted rather than overcrowded; at least outside the must-see venues such as the Louvre, Sagrada Familia or the Sistine Chapel. One issue with overtourism except crowds, wear and tear, is also the emergence of tourist traps; this concept is described in Budget travel as the cost is the main issue. /Yvwv (talk) 13:15, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, it means you have to reserve a time slot for the popular tourist attractions in advance. I heard that's the case for the Uffizi in Florence and The Louvre in Paris, and it's most certainly true for the Statue of Liberty in New York City if you want to go up to the crown. You also have something similar in China with the Forbidden City. China doesn't get that many foreign visitors, but it has a huge domestic tourism industry, so many of its main attractions are overcrowded with domestic tourists. —The preceding comment was added by The dog2 (talk • contribs) 20:49, June 3, 2024
 * Wolter dropped a list of 10 more overtouristed destinations: Lisbon, Florence, Mykonos, Hallstatt, Toledo (Spain), Mallorca, Reykjavik, Edinburgh, Munich and Prague. He gives more context; For many of these destinations, the overcrowding is seasonal, and there are more gratifying neighbor destinations. In the large cities, you can escape the crowds by going to another district; or in some cases a parallel street. Or simply don't go there for a bachelor party. /Yvwv (talk) 23:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of great places to visit in Italy, but only one of them has the attractions Florence has, though I was shocked by how crowded it was between April 8 and 12 this year, and I think it would be intolerable to visit in the summer now, which was fine to do in the 90s. Munich seems idiotic to me to be on a list of overtouristed destinations. Neither in April nor at the beginning of June was it remotely close to being too crowded (at least to this New Yorker). Maybe people should avoid Oktoberfest, but I don't think people would go to Munich then by accident, so if that's when they want to go, they know they'll be part of drunken crowds and that's what they want. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Guardian ran an article about over-tourism in Mallorca (and several other places where locals want tourists to stay home):
 * https://www.theguardian.com/travel/article/2024/jun/18/beware-of-locals-we-are-angry-the-mallorcans-battling-tourists-to-protect-their-beautiful-beach Mrkstvns (talk) 13:40, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Another article about over-tourism with some suggestions for respectful travel appeared in  Outside  magazine:
 * https://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/advice/how-to-be-a-good-tourist/ Mrkstvns (talk) 17:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * With the ongoing political week in Visby, overtourism in Gotland is brought up. Water shortage is an issue, as well as property inflation, traffic and littering. There is however a dramatic irony that the county hosts Sweden's largest political event in the peak tourist season, while in the meantime trying to divert tourism to shoulder season. /Yvwv (talk) 13:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Announcing the first Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee

 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hello,

The scrutineers have finished reviewing the vote results. We are following up with the results of the first Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) election.

We are pleased to announce the following individuals as regional members of the U4C, who will fulfill a two-year term:

 * North America (USA and Canada)
 * Northern and Western Europe
 * Ghilt
 * Latin America and Caribbean
 * Central and East Europe (CEE)
 * Sub-Saharan Africa
 * Middle East and North Africa
 * Ibrahim.ID
 * East, South East Asia and Pacific (ESEAP)
 * 0xDeadbeef
 * South Asia
 * Ibrahim.ID
 * East, South East Asia and Pacific (ESEAP)
 * 0xDeadbeef
 * South Asia

The following individuals are elected to be community-at-large members of the U4C, fulfilling a one-year term:

 * Barkeep49
 * Superpes15
 * Civvì
 * Luke081515

Thank you again to everyone who participated in this process and much appreciation to the candidates for your leadership and dedication to the Wikimedia movement and community.

Over the next few weeks, the U4C will begin meeting and planning the 2024-25 year in supporting the implementation and review of the UCoC and Enforcement Guidelines. Follow their work on Meta-wiki.

On behalf of the UCoC project team,<section end="announcement-content" />

RamzyM (WMF) 08:15, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I do still wonder why only 7 of the 16 slots were filled. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 08:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe that you had to get a 60% net 'support' vote to be appointed. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting, though I do understand the WMF's rationale behind this. (though I'm just glad that the swwiki admin (blocked a user for reporting another admin's anti-queer behavior) + Slyeece (rather aggressive on metawiki) had the highest number of oppose votes.) -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know if it was the WMF's idea. The desire for a super-majority usually comes from the English Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's an enwiki thing? I thought some other large wikis like Commons adopted this too? (leading me to assume it's stock-standard on several large wikis) SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Every wiki has its own system. Some wikis have different thresholds for different things.  For example, the German-language Wikipedia runs on a simple majority.  But usually, if someone's pushing the idea that "of course" it "must" be a super majority, they're from the English Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, I get what you mean. I do agree that only enwiki has the audacity to pretend it's in its own world and the WMF doesn't exist. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting how they're holding another election at Universal Code of Conduct/Coordinating Committee/Election/2024 Special Election, when there were plenty of candidates who were perfectly able to elected (i.e. vote of > 50%), but didn't. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Request for Support
Dear Wikivoyage Editors,

Reaching out to request for support in mastering the rudiments on creating contents on the WikiVoyage project. I will be available to a call at the editor's convenience. Iwuala Lucy (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Wikis tend to be pretty self-service. We're happy to answer any questions you might have right here! Powers (talk) 15:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Mobile editing issues
I need help eliminating vandalism from Denmark, because I am completely unable to rollback edits by 2 IPs (that is, more than one user) on my iPhone and cannot compare edits earlier than the current and immediately previous one and revert normally, either. Are Mediawiki developers aware that the mobile software is so useless? What are they doing about it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Actually, it's worse than that: I can't even save or edit any old version of an article on my iPhone! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I have similar issues as you (both here and on meta). It doesn't help that I can't use the restore tool or TwinkleGlobal on mobile either, because both tools can be absolute lifesavers. (I'm using Safari on iOS 17.5, for the record) -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 08:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm using Safari, too. The mobile interface for editing Wikivoyage is completely absurd! It really makes this site a laughingstock! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm jealous that Wikipedia has an iOS app! (Commons has a mobile app, but it's Android only :-. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 09:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, absurd! Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If you can't save or edit any old version of an article on your iPhone it sounds like you have a bad gadget enabled and the issue is on your side. Note many gadgets were built before the iPhone even existed and the maintainers were long gone and never adjusted their scripts to work with it. It's possible Wikivoyage is using old versions of scripts - many of the gadgets on Wikivoyage are in a terrible state from what I can see. If you follow the guidelines in Help:Locating_broken_scripts to tell me which ones are fault, I could likely help you address this.
 * Another thing you absolutely should do if you haven't done so already is enable the "Advanced mode" of the mobile site. Given you are a power user, and you are claiming you are unable to rollback edits, I think this may also be playing a part. To enable the advanced mode, Visit Special:MobileOptions when logged in on the mobile site and click "enable advanced mobile mode". Jdlrobson (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please understand: I can rollback edits of a single username or IP address on my cellphone, not more than one username or IP address. I'll see how I would enable an "advanced mode" next time I'm trying to edit on my cellphone, and I'll try the strategies mentioned on the help page you linked, but I believe I shouldn't have to use an unusual mode to make the kinds of edits on my cellphone that are routine to make on my computer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * While I do enable a whole swathe of different gadgets, doesn't have any enabled (which means that a broken gadget is likely not the cause) – User:Ikan Kekek/common.js and m:User:Ikan Kekek/global.js both happen to be red links. --  SHB2000  (t | c | m) 02:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When I say gadgets I am referring to the ones enabled in Special:Preferences not user scripts this is private information so you are unable to tell if Ikan Kekek is using gadgets or not.
 * I did report https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T367107 while testing the workflows here. I am not sure if that covers the steps you were trying to follow? Jdlrobson (talk) 01:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't really know what a gadget is, so I don't think it's possible that I enabled one, unless it's possible to do so accidentally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If you go to Special:Preferences, you can see which gadgets you've enabled. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 09:52, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have only the default "General" gadgets enabled, namely:
 * Carousel: Adds support for creating JCarousel scrolling content displays. Used on the Main Page.
 * ListingEditor 2023: adds buttons to add and edit listings using a form, with better performance than older version.
 * MapFrame: Inserts an in-article map on chosen pages, see Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps for more information.
 * Open external links in a new tab/window.
 * Maptool: A tool for searching for POIs in Wikidata and OpenStreetMap, and general helper for dynamic maps preparation.
 * Plus:
 * confirmationRollback-mobile: request confirmation for rollback in mobile version
 * User: Jdlrobson, does that help? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Restaurant noise
The restaurant critic at the Washington Post says the most common question he gets from the (mostly American) public is about tipping, and the second most common question is whether he could recommend a quiet restaurant. He has been giving noise ratings in his reviews for years.

Noisy restaurants are a problem for people who are hard of hearing (about one in six adults), but also for people who are tired or jetlagged, so I would like to suggest that we try to include this information when we can. It doesn't have to be a decibel rating or in every entry. Try something like "energetic atmosphere with live music" for a noisier place, or "good place for a quiet conversation" for a quieter place. Different readers will have different goals, so I don't think we should frame the sound level as a problem, though I suppose "ear protection recommended" might be appropriate in a few instances. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

 * This is something that most travel guides don't do very well in, but one that we could potentially capitalise on. Unlike tipping culture, issues with noise are a thing everywhere, though good luck trying to find a quiet restaurant in large parts of South Asia and Southeast Asia. I'd be interested to hear suggestions on how to integrate restaurant noise levels into eat listings. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 02:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, it could be included in the description when a place is notably quiet or noisy for its location. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This seems to be obviously useful information to add to the description of a restaurant if you have it. I don't see the need for discussion. Plunge forward. Ground Zero (talk) 21:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * For travellers who are not native speakers of the local language, a quieter restaurant would also be useful. /Yvwv (talk) 12:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The final text of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now on Meta
<section begin="announcement-content" />
 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hi everyone,

The final text of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now up on Meta in more than 20 languages for your reading.

What is the Wikimedia Movement Charter?

The Wikimedia Movement Charter is a proposed document to define roles and responsibilities for all the members and entities of the Wikimedia movement, including the creation of a new body – the Global Council – for movement governance.

Join the Wikimedia Movement Charter “Launch Party”

Join the “Launch Party” on June 20, 2024 at 14.00-15.00 UTC (your local time). During this call, we will celebrate the release of the final Charter and present the content of the Charter. Join and learn about the Charter before casting your vote.

Movement Charter ratification vote

Voting will commence on SecurePoll on June 25, 2024 at 00:01 UTC and will conclude on July 9, 2024 at 23:59 UTC. You can read more about the voting process, eligibility criteria, and other details on Meta.

If you have any questions, please leave a comment on the Meta talk page or email the MCDC at [mailto:mcdc@wikimedia.org mcdc@wikimedia.org].

On behalf of the MCDC,<section end="announcement-content" />

RamzyM (WMF) 08:45, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Enabling the block feature on the abuse filter
The abuse filter has many wonders, and one of them is the block feature. However, unlike many other wikis, the English Wikivoyage has yet to enable this feature (can only be done if there is community consensus – see T31483 as an example for a wiki smaller than ours).

Like many other wikis, the English Wikivoyage suffers a good deal of LTA activity and I know I'm about to open a can of worms by saying this but...as a matter of fact, we have very few active users between 00:00 and 07:00 UTC. We are a GS wiki, but even then, there aren't that many global sysops or stewards active during this time either. Letting the abuse filter handle the blocks for obvious cases would help this a bit. Ideally, I'd set the default block time to 30 minutes (which is enough time for a sysop to come and review the block), but this can be worked out later.

What's the drawback? Pretty much next to none. Just because there is the option to use the block feature doesn't mean it has to be used, it just makes anti-vandalism slightly easier. As a smaller wiki, the case for using the abuse filter to block is even more than some larger wikis.

-- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 11:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Unless we want to use it without further public discussion we shouldn't enable it. Enabling the feature implicitly more or less approves its use, and regardless, an enabled feature will be used sooner or later.
 * Usually false positives can be appealed, and editing articles that don't need the triggering URL (or whatever) can continue straight away. This isn't the case with blocks. Having a short block time (such as the suggested 30 min) limits the damage – given that the editor isn't scared away – but is not without consequences. Thus filters with the block option enabled need to have no or very few false positives. I also hope that we monitor the filter logs closely enough.
 * That said, the block option is effective against a user trying ways to get around a filter, such as by varying spellings.
 * –LPfi (talk) 14:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. If we want to be extra careful, we can exempt user talk pages from the block, though that will mostly result in a lot of manual deletions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, on Meta, we rarely restrict TPA (in the rare case of false positives), but the impacts of a 30-minute block isn't that different to our formal "cooldown" blocks either. (LPfi, FTR, we have to have further public discussion since there must be community consensus to enable this) SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We need the discussion to enable it, but that's the discussion where we should decide on whether and how to use it. The "we don't need to use it, so we can as well enable it" is not the way to have a good public discussion. And please don't use acronyms like "TPA", which make the discussion hard to follow for the general community. –LPfi (talk) 06:33, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I've already made my argument for enabling it, but I'll state it again: there are many LTAs that lurk during times when both local and GSs tend to be occupied with other things (often between 00:00–07:00 UTC). A short (probably 30 minutes) cooldown block is enough to stop the vandalism and enough time for an admin to review the block and that's how the feature is intended to be used. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * TPA=talk page access, presumably, but means that a user can edit their user talk page. LTAs=long-term abusers (that is, vandals who use one username or IP address after another). I myself don't know what GSs are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm a 18-year wiki veteran and even I don't know what GS stands for. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 18:08, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * GS means global sysop. I've never actually heard anyone use "global sysop wiki" (only GS wiki), but I think that's because nobody spells GSR in full – I'll wikilink the abbreviations next time. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support -Lionel Cristiano (talk) 22:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I think we already have a tendency to be so heavy-handed with blocks that we unnecessarily risk driving good-faith contributors away from the site. I worry enabling this feature could make that tendency worse. We've sometimes had abuse filters with high false positive rates, and it would be very unfortunate for a good-faith contributor to be blocked by an automated process like this. I don't really see the need to enable this, but if we do, I think we need clear guidelines limiting its use. The suggestions above (blocks of no more than 30 minutes, and never restricting talk page access) are a good starting point. Maybe another guideline would be that blocking can only be enabled if an abuse filter has been active for some period of time (six months? a year?) with no false positives, and that no changes can be made to the filter's logic when blocking is enabled. But again, I don't really see the need for this – I often edit between 00:00 and 07:00 UTC, and when I check recent changes I don't notice unmanageable levels of vandalism. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I actually share your concern about being very heavy-handed with newbies which includes blocking. My main concern is that we do have egregious vandalism from known LTAs that often go on red for a significant amount of time (particularly ACV or BMX) and other wikis such as meta, enwikibooks or enwikinews already do this without significant issues (though I wouldn't follow the enwikinews approach of using indef blocks). I think 1 week with 100% accuracy should suffice, because it takes quite a bit for a new user to trigger the filters that disallow edits. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:54, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And ACV and BMX are? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll keep this short per our principle of DENY, but you're probably already familiar with these two LTAs. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 04:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm still in the midst of creating a draft proposal, but just to highlight another case of admins being very inactive at certain times, ACV was out and about for 30 minutes (their edits were reverted by, but they aren't a GS or a steward) before they were finally locked. Would have helped had an edit filter blocked them. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 09:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * How flexible are the block options in the filters? Do you have access to all options you can choose for a manual block? I assume the filter edit restriction would require changes to the software, so we will have somebody do a silly typo now and then, when they think they are doing some innocent tweak.
 * A week of checking the filter log does not help much. It helps against typos that catch a lot of innocent edits, but it doesn't prevent the Scunthorpe problem. Instead, the logs need to be monitored, so that any false positive gets addressed, both in correcting the filter and in explaining for the unlucky user.
 * –LPfi (talk) 06:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviving this old discussion, after some thought, how about adding the following on Abuse filters (if we're all good with this compromise/wording)?

 * "''Since July 2024, the English Wikivoyage has opted in to use the 'block' feature on abuse filters. Despite the ability to use the 'block' feature, it should primarily be used as a last-resort. Blocks by default are 30 minutes with email and talk-page access open and the description of the block clearly stated. Any filter with longer or more restrictive block settings must be discussed with clear community consensus before being implemented. Additionally, before using the block feature, a filter must have a clear history of 15 hits and be in use for 1 week of having no false positives (unless the filter was imported from another wiki where it has been similarly successful, in which case, the block feature may be used without discussion)."

Does this sound good with everyone? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 02:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I never used abuse filters so I can't comment on its suitability and scope. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 05:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's understandable. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 05:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This sounds sensible, though I think you can't always discuss filters (even in the context of deciding block durations) with non-admins. Leaderboard (talk) 09:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we should not leave the option of longer or more severe blocking. If the need turns up we can change the guideline after that discussion with clear community consensus (I don't see the need as of now). If we need flexibility, then replace "by default" by "at most"
 * I would also want some guarantee that the abuse logs get monitored well-enough to quickly note false positives. I myself mostly forget to check them. Should we introduce a page that should have an entry every week from somebody who have done the checking (entries every time may tell vandals too much)?
 * I also think that enabling a block on some filter need to be told explicitly in the filter notes, to ease following up the use.
 * –LPfi (talk) 10:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with LPfi's points, especially about the "by default" language. I also think 1 week and 15 hits are not enough to achieve a low enough risk of false-positive blocks. A false-positive block is a severe cost, as it can very easily drive away a good-faith user. I would suggest this should "only" (not "primarily") be used as a last resort, but even that is a little vague – a last resort against what? I disagree with the idea of giving carte blanche for "similarly successful" filters from other wikis. Different wikis have different types of content, and it's easy to imagine a filter that never gets false positives on, say, Wiktionary or Wikispecies might get false positives here. I also think we should specify that changes to the filter's logic cannot be made if blocking functionality is enabled, to avoid the risk of accidentally making false positives more likely. In general I don't see the benefits as outweighing the costs here.
 * It might help if the supporters of this proposal could give examples of what filters they want to use this for. That might help convince us skeptics of the value of the proposal, and could help us work together to craft a version of the policy that allows those use cases while limiting the risk of problems. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ...without revealing too much here, think filter 52 as an example (0 false positives so far, FTR). SHB2000  (t | c | m) 05:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The obvious issue is a long-term vandal who tries how to get around our filters. It is not unusual with several tries in a short timeframe. If they got their IP address blocked with each try, they might soon run out of addresses (assuming range blocks for IPv6 addresses – range discussions should probably be held in secret, trusting admins to keep them reasonable). –LPfi (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with a new trial period after a filter change. It can be done through testing the filter on edits already made, so no waiting period necessarily needed. I don't think whether to test a few days, a week or more is essential: typos like matching the empty string are caught with a short test, while the Scunthorpe problem typically turns up unexpectedly even after very long testing periods (there: when the internet domain name was taken into use). What's essential is to do the changes carefully, with full understanding of how the filter works and with some peer review – and to catch the false positives quickly. –LPfi (talk) 08:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Kosovo Numbered City Map
I'm wondering why the typical numbered ciy map is missing from the Kosovo page. 24.212.232.2 17:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not. You are invited to click on any blue number of the cities' list on the Cities subheading. Or right-button-click and choose the "open in a new tab" or similar option. You will then open the map that you wish to consult. Ibaman (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * added a switch there... -- andree 19:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Subsidized immigration
10 countries that will pay you to move there/ Is this accurate? Are there others? Should it be mentioned on WV? In which article? Pashley (talk) 19:14, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Yes, it should be mentioned, IMO. However, we have no Immigration or Living Abroad articles, though I'd support creating them, so I don't know where it should be mentioned. Would Working abroad be most relevant? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:04, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think so, and the benefits should also be mentioned in the Work sections of country articles: most of the offers in the article are about moving for a job; some are based just on residency, but residence visas are often hard to get without a sponsoring employer. Unfortunately, the article mostly doesn't tell the criteria for getting the benefits. –06:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC) LPfi (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Welcome message to new users
Can we quickly send a welcome message to new users joining Wikivoyage? But for this we need a bot. Lionel Cristiano (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 * To be clear, we have Welcome but it is added manually, such as at w:, not automatically, such as at c:. There is no reason why in principle we cannot have a bot add it to new users' talk pages.
 * While we are on the topic, we should amend welcome to have a H2 header (probably one that says "Welcome" or "Welcome, Username !" for semantic reasons and so that someone can subscribe to just that thread instead of watching someone's entire user talk. See Template_talk:Welcome. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:09, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The idea of an automated welcome message has come up multiple times before (and it doesn't require a bot; there's an extension that can do it). See Wikivoyage talk:Welcome message for at least some of the prior discussions. It's been rejected each time because Wikivoyage has traditionally preferred the more personal touch. It allows an experienced Wikivoyager to make sure the newbie is here for more than just one edit, avoids scaring them off with too much attention too soon, and lets welcomers customize the message for different types of newbies. Powers (talk) 18:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's confusing and annoying to be welcomed to a Wikipedia just because one checked an article of theirs for suitable images, perhaps fixing a typo while there (such as in a name one knows). I have edits on some 30 Wikipedias, most with one or two edits and I think I have been welcomed to many with no edits (I have accounts on 264 Wikimedia projects, created by visiting them); I indeed do not know thirty languages.
 * It is also better that some users get tout or the like instead of welcome. Also, it is frustrating, when on patrol, to click a bluelink to a talk page just to find the welcome message.
 * –LPfi (talk) 06:41, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I prefer to keep manual welcoming for this very reason – without manually checking the user's edit history, there's no objective way of knowing whether to use welcome, wikipedian, tout, welcomebusiness or welcomeanon. A bot or an automatic welcoming tool won't be able to do this. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 06:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Missing "add listing"
The [add listing] now suddenly is only present at "==" headings and not anymore at "===" headings. FredTC (talk) 14:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Any insight on this? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This relates to upstream changes relating to heading markup in a recent MediaWiki release. I have had no time to look into this yet due to personal reasons and it is likely to take me some time to understand and fix it given the existing state of the code 😓.
 * If someone is technical and wants to debug this and send a pull request we can get to a fix quicker.
 * The only workaround right now is to use Vector 2022. It is the default Wikimedia skin for good reason but I realize that might not be what you want to hear.
 * I'll be sure to update here when I have capacity to look into this issue more. Jdlrobson (talk) 23:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Tracked in https://github.com/jdlrobson/Gadget-Workshop/issues/8
 * A fix should be out in beta by end of week. Jdlrobson (talk) 22:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've pushed a potential fix to the beta. Once I hear from at least 2 people that the bug is gone and there are no other bugs, I'll update the non-beta version. Thanks in advance! Jdlrobson (talk) 04:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Seems to be fixed in beta. I haven't checked for other bugs. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:07, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism on Template:See also
I don't know what's going on but instead of showing a redirect, it now shows a photo of Tom Hiddleston at ComicCon. I wanted to revert the vandalism, but there was no vandalism on this template itself, so it must have been in some module that I don't know about. The dog2 (talk) 21:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I have just rolled back vandalism edits on 10 templates which had been changed to show this picture. One of them was Template:Seealso. I think that there are several templates which should be semi-protected. AlasdairW (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ User blocked by + reported to SRG. --  SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Now globally locked by Bsadowski1. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:02, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The template page itself still shows Tom Hiddleston's picture. How can it be reverted? The dog2 (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That has been fixed by adding and then removing a space on the template to force an update. AlasdairW (talk) 22:23, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I have the opinion that such template pages should be protected for admin-only editing by default, to prevent this type of vandalism. I tend to apply this protection whenever they are vandalized. Unfortunately I'm on phone mode right now, commuting, and not much able to act. Ibaman (talk) 23:56, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Why admin-only, though? We should be using template editor protection at the very most. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 02:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Templates are often fixed by editors from other projects, with little edit history over here, and no extended rights. If this kind of vandalism happens infrequently, I think protecting the templates may cause more harm than the occasional vandalism. If there is a way to check group membership on the editor's home wiki, then that could make a base for a filter. –LPfi (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there is no way to check for local user rights at other wikis.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was going to say this :-( (maybe some food for thought for the next community wishlist?). However, unlike other wikis, we're very liberal in giving out  permissions, so any editor willing to make changes can request such perms and it'll often be granted. However, this wouldn't be possible if we admin-only protected those templates. --  SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:53, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think all templates which are used on more than about 20 pages should be semi-protected. Admin only protection is probably a step too far, it is a pity that there doesn't appear to be an intermediate level like autopatroller. I have seen a few occasions where a vandal has edited templates or modules, and have only noticed that this has happened due to unexpected changes to pages I was looking at. On this occasion, I was looking at page which had just been flagged as having a dead link, found an unexpected image and traced it to Template:Quote. The vandal has used a new account on all these occasions, so semi-protection would have helped. (We might also need to raise the bar for confirmation - some other wikis have it set a bit higher.) AlasdairW (talk) 22:58, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It may be worth pointing out that the vandal targetted Template:Seealso, which has no protection and is used on 950 pages rather than Template:See also used on several thousand, which was protected. AlasdairW (talk) 23:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps redirects should be protected. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We do have an intermediate protection level – that's template editor (I'm happy to grant them to you if you want – just request on my talk page). Other than that, I do agree that we should increase the bar for autoconfirmed – 4 days + 0 edits makes it very easy for vandals to create sleepers (I think enwiki's or meta's levels are about right, but that's for a separate discussion). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 23:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Enwiki is 4 days + 10 edits. The '4 days' part is generally considered the bigger barrier. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, but wouldn't it be more beneficial for us to change it to 4 days + 5 edits (meta's level) given how easy it would be to get past it using sleeper accounts? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The main thing autoconfirmed accounts should be able to do is to edit pages targeted by vandals with throw-away accounts. Do you have any feel for the distribution of good-faith editors between numbers of edits? I would think that anybody who creates an account for more than a single edit or a test soon reaches ten or more edits, and thus the edit count isn't a serious barrier for most, even if raised somewhat.
 * For sleeper accounts, the four days are no barrier, but edits require at least some work if you don't want them reverted (and thus possibly some attention; do reverted edits count?). The current limits seem to be targeted at touts and mistakes by pass-by editors. If we want to get some protection against vandals, higher limits are needed.
 * –LPfi (talk) 06:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What do you think of meta's 5-edit limit? 5 edits IMO is enough to tell whether a user is a good-faith editor or not. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is a problem. Zero edits makes no sense unless we believe that people register and keep logged in to be able to use personal settings. I don't know whether that is usual. If it is, then their first edit won't be denied with the current limit. If people register for editing, they surely would have done their first edits before the four-day limit. Whether the edit count should be three, five or ten, I don't know. Is there a significant population of active contributors having one or three but not ten edits? Those that made a certain amount of edits but then abandoned their account should not be counted. –LPfi (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems many of us in this thread are in agreement on this issue – I have a few things I need to catch up IRL, but I'll propose we change the requirements sometime in the next few days. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 12:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikidata uses 4 days and 50 edits, decided here. A setting of 50 doesn't prevent an Admin from manually confirming earlier, but does require some editing time even if each of the edits is simple. AlasdairW (talk) 20:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go overboard with 50 (I think zhwiki also has something similar IIRC with 30 days, but don't quite me on it), but maybe something in between could work. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikidata edits are not really comparable. Anyway, what we are trying to make harder is creating a large number of sleeper accounts. Even requirement of a few edits are a barrier when they are needed for every account. –LPfi (talk) 06:16, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The numbers aren't difficult to calculate. We have 2.3 million registered accounts.  Most of these are editors from other wikis (e.g., the English Wikipedia) who clicked a link one day and had their account autocreated.  Only about 3% have ever made an edit here, and most of those have been inactive for years.
 * Of those 3% (i.e., excluding all IP/logged-out editors, and including only registered/logged-in accounts that actually made an edit here):
 * 66,500 have made 1+ edits,
 * 41,800 have made 2+ edits,
 * 31,600 have made 3+ edits (this is the 50% level),
 * 25,700 have made 4+ edits,
 * 21,800 have made 5+ edits,
 * 12,700 have made 10+ edits,
 * 3,200 have made 50+ edits,
 * 1,855 have made 100+ edits,
 * 526 have made 500+ edits.
 * These are all "lifetime" edits: The 12,700 people who have made 10+ edits might have made them years ago, or one edit per year for the last ten years, etc.
 * As a bonus statistic, there are only 107 contributors here who are currently active (1+ edits during the last 30 days) and meet enwiki's "extended confirmed" requirements (account is 30+ days old, with 500+ total/lifetime contributions). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * An interesting figure would be like the above, but only counting those with several days between the account creation and their newest edit. If they did all their edits at the one time they visited and then never return, they aren't very relevant, as they wouldn't have become autoconfirmed – unless we drop the account age requirement. –LPfi (talk) 20:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

RFC: When should we use Huge city templates?
Over at Wikivoyage talk:Geographical hierarchy, ChubbyWimbus and I have been having an extended debate on when "huge city" templates should be applied. To mildly caricature, CW's opinion is that we should use them for anything called a city even when it looks like this, whereas I'm of the equally firm opinion that if it's not a big gray blob on a satellite image, it's not an actual Huge City.

I have proposed the following strawman as a Wikivoyage guideline: ''A huge city should be a single cohesive whole from the traveller's point of view. Administrative "cities" spanning thousands of square kilometers, with multiple disconnected urban areas, are better off as regions.'' If you have thoughts either way, please chime in: → Wikivoyage talk:Geographical hierarchy Jpatokal (talk) 00:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree with the general sentiment, but then again, there are also areas with multiple cities forming a contiguous urban area. Malaysia's Klang Valley is an example, where the capital Kuala Lumpur is located, is an example. And you can argue that Tokyo-Osaka is one single urban area. The dog2 (talk) 02:08, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * True, and these contiguous urban areas are not necessarily large. For instance, the county seat of Yulong forms a contiguous urban area with Lijiang's Gucheng District. Hence I have argued against having a separate article for Yulong (See Talk:Yulong). STW932 (talk) 06:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This reminds me of some of the discussions that have been had in relation to China's prefecture-level cities (most of which are what you call 'administrative cities'). See especially Talk:Fuzhou and Talk:Suzhou. Personally I prefer the Jiangmen model whereby all the administrative divisions of the city are kept together in a single region (and are not put together with the administrative divisions of other prefecture-level cities). User: Pashley, however, has strongly argued in favour of the status quo for both Fuzhou and Suzhou. STW932 (talk) 04:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That discussion died a month a go – some revival would be good. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 12:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * See also Travellers' pub above. It appears that using the word city in the template name is distracting editors.  I still believe that renaming these would help resolve these disputes.  Perhaps city becomes destination?  And huge becomes high-content (because huge is meant to be a measure of how much content we have, not how many people live at the destination or how many square kilometers the destination claims)?
 * I wonder whether the problem here is not whether Template:Hugecity skeleton or Template:Ruralarea skeleton was chosen. The difference between the two is just whether you need ==Districts==, ==Learn==, ==Work==, or ==Cope==, and any article can have those added or removed as needed.   I wonder if the issue might more specifically sound like "I don't want the article title to be Miyoshi (Tokushima)/Ikeda.  I want the article title to be Ikeda (Tokushima) instead." WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm getting similar feelings too. The latter title is better for SEO purposes, but that delves into a whole new question of how we want to name our city districts. (FWIW, frwikivoyage and itwikivoyage abandoned this naming structure a long time ago) -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think "high-content destination" sounds reasonable. That's the point of having districts. While all current "huge cities" are cities, I don't see there being any major problems in rural areas, parks or dive sites getting districts if an active editor wants to create (useful) such sub-articles – the probability of which I feel is mostly low.
 * Such a naming change would solve one out of three issues, the others being the mentioned district article titles and the text created by the templates (where "high-content destination" also fits). I think the three are mostly independent.
 * –LPfi (talk) 07:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * (SHB2000, do we really care whether anything in the Template: namespace has favorable SEO qualities?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When I was referring to SEO, I'm talking about how a title like, say East Amsterdam would be favorable over Amsterdam/East. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 21:34, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand now. I agree with you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Glad we're on the same page. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 04:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

(undent) I've never been a fan of the City/District naming convention and in my earlier poking around was unable to find a convincing justification for why we needed them in the first place. Any thoughts? If none can be found, I'd be up for following fr/it's lead and abandoning them entirely. Jpatokal (talk) 22:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

 * The format enables some automatic features (as the software can see them as sub-articles), but I assume any needed functionality can be had through normal links and templates. The format may affect statistics, but that is hardly important.
 * One thing is common names: "Somecity/North" may get a less elegant name also without the dash, such as "Somecity's north" or "North (Somecity)". In the search box, you get all the districts when looking for Somecity/, while for other name forms you don't, but that should mean just one click and a few seconds more.
 * –LPfi (talk) 06:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I support changing this convention. In some cases even fairly generic names would become more elegant (I'd be happy renaming Shenzhen/West to Western Shenzhen). Even when we still need a parenthetical disambiguator, I think "District (City)" is easier to understand for most readers than "City/District". For instance I'd guess SoHo (Manhattan) and Soho (London) would be more intuitive for most readers than the current Manhattan/SoHo and London/Soho.
 * For "Somecity/North" type districts, some care is needed to choose the most idiomatic title with the new convention – "North Somecity", "Northern Somecity", "North (Somecity)", etc. For Boston/Downtown, Downtown Boston is probably a better title than Downtown (Boston). If we do make this change, we should keep redirects from the old titles, to avoid breaking incoming links from other websites. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm positively surprised to see the level of support here: do we have anybody opposed? Regarding naming, I don't think the X/North problem is a big deal in practice, most of those can be turned into simply "North X" and we've already got a lot of belt-and-suspenders redundant names like Canberra/North Canberra.  IMHO parentheses should be avoided unless absolutely necessary, eg. for the Sohos there's probably no way out since "London Soho" sounds terrible. Jpatokal (talk) 03:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not a fan. It's a lot of work for very little (if any) benefit. And it might break things we aren't thinking of right now. And the proposal is buried in a thread that started off about a different proposal. Powers (talk) 22:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

As mentioned above, the huge city/high-content destination article template is chosen based on the amount of content and not on the basis of the physical size of the city/destination. It seems to me therefore that the region template may be ideal for cities/destinations that cover a very large geographical space but do not have enough content to be considered huge cities or high-content destinations. STW932 (talk) 06:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

On a side note, I find it somewhat curious that Geographical hierarchy cites Lubbock as an example of a city that is geographically large but lacking sufficient content to be considered a huge city (or high-content destination). Lubbock only has an area of 324 km². There are many ‘low-content’ cities that are much larger than that, for example Hulunbuir (in Eastern Inner Mongolia) covers an area of approximately 253,000 km² and Ordos City has a an area of about 87,000 km². Interestingly, Hulunbuir is treated as a region whereas Ordos is treated as a city. STW932 (talk) 06:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * It is common on Wikivoyage to include the surrounding countryside in the scope of a city article. Ordos City is oddly named, but a region article would require splitting the article up, and with population centres with 100,000+ inhabitants, this is hardly well handled as a "rural area". –LPfi (talk) 10:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I support renaming City/District articles to "District (City)" "North City" or whatever is more appropriate and used by the rest of the world apart from Wikivoyage currently. The unintuitive things we do here, such as having our own district naming system not used anywhere else, hamper our growth for the purposes of SEO and acquiring new editors and readers who can get confused by our quirks and intricacies. Gizza ( roam ) 00:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think that works well if you're searching for an article. If you want North London and you put "London" in the search box, you'll see  London but not the page that is currently titled (and appearing in that search as) London/North.  If we make this change, and you put "North" in the search box, you'll get a list that includes North Baltimore, North Beach (Miami Beach), North Canberra, North Central Rome, North Dallas, North East Leeds, North-East Brussels, North Edmonton, North Jakarta, North Hyderabad, North Lincoln (Chicago), and more, and you'll have no idea whether you can't find North London in the list because we don't have a separate article for it, or if you just haven't found it in the list yet.  There are 500+ pages with "North" in the name, and almost a hundred of them are subpages titled "North" that could be affected by this.
 * I don't mind the subpage style, but if we change it, we should keep the "big endian" style. That means that everything in London needs to have London as the first word, and the qualifiers come second.  At the moment, that means London/North, but if we want to copy Wikipedia's love for parenthetical disambiguation, then we could try London (North).  North London is just impractical for readers and editors who are looking for articles about a high-content destination. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I oppose the switch. Subpage style makes it easier to expand and add more pages in a city or region the future (and we know some huge cities have gaps that need to be filled in in the future). <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 19:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean. How does using a title like "London/North" as opposed to "North London" make it easier to add more pages in the future? —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For the record, the French and Italian Wikivoyages abolished the style we use years ago and have had no issues with adding new districts – if anything I think it's better for the sake of search engine optimization. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 12:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Basically, I agree with . If it is not actually a huge city (to me, a cohesive urban area with population over 10 million), then we should not call it one. Should we rename the template to "City with districts" or some such. e.g. I would not call Toronto "huge" (6 million or so) but it has districts & certainly needs them. Pashley (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The only problem with "City with districts" is that the same thought process that leads to "the city itself is not really huge, so we can't use the  – that's only for places like Tokyo and Delhi" will, if we rename to "City with districts" reappear as "that destination has districts, but it's not really a city, so we can't use the  ".
 * I suggest preventing all such future discussions by calling it a destination instead of a city. This could be "destination with districts" or a "high-content destination". WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was going to agree with you then, but then I realized that technically parks are also "destinations" (though then again, how many parks with districts do we have?). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We're really spending all of this time arguing about Wikivoyage nomenclature? Why does it matter what we call it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It matters because contributors (not readers) are finding the nomenclature confusing, and then incorrectly believe that other contributors are making mistakes because they have used the "wrong" format. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Voting to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now open – cast your vote
<section begin="announcement-content" />
 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hello everyone,

The voting to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now open. The Wikimedia Movement Charter is a document to define roles and responsibilities for all the members and entities of the Wikimedia movement, including the creation of a new body – the Global Council – for movement governance.

The final version of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is available on Meta in different languages and attached for your reading.

Voting commenced on SecurePoll on June 25, 2024 at 00:01 UTC and will conclude on July 9, 2024 at 23:59 UTC. Please read more on the voter information and eligibility details.

After reading the Charter, please vote here and share this note further.

If you have any questions about the ratification vote, please contact the Charter Electoral Commission at [mailto:cec@wikimedia.org cec@wikimedia.org].

On behalf of the CEC,<section end="announcement-content" />

RamzyM (WMF) 10:52, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Free SVG Vector City Maps for all (CC-0 license)
Hello there))) Published vector maps of my production on WIKIMEDIA Maps of cities (streets, roads, water bodies), names - only cities and districts, road signboards.

LIST OF THE FREE CITY MAPS in SVG EDITABLE

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aarhus_Denmark_Street_Map_vector_svg_free.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adelaide_Australia_Street_Map_SVG_free.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albany_New_York_US_Street_Map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albuquerque_New_Mexico_US_Street_Map_SVG.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Allentown_and_Easton_Pennsylvania_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amsterdam_Netherlands_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Antwerpen_Belgium_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Athens_Greece_street_map_vector_gvl13_svg_free.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Atlanta_Georgia_US_street_map_vector_editable_gvl13_svg_free.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Auburn_and_Lewiston_Maine_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Auckland_New_Zealand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Austin_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baku_Azerbaijan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baltimore_Maryland_US_Street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bangkok_Thailand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Basel_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baton_Rouge_Louisiana_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Beijing_China_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Belfast_Northern_Ireland_UK_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Germany_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bern_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bismarck_North_Dakota_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boston_Center_Massachusetts_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boston_Massachusetts_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boston_Massachusetts_US_Metro_Area_street_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Brisbane_Australia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Burlington_Vermont_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Calgary_Alberta_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Canberra_Australia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charleston_South_Carolina_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charlottesville_Virginia_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chicago_Illinois_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cincinnati_Ohio_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cleveland_Ohio_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cologne_Germany_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Columbus_Ohio_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Copenhagen_Denmark_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dallas_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Darmstadt_Germany_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dayton_and_Springfield_Ohio_US_street_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Delhi_India_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Delray_Beach_Florida_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Denver_and_Boulder_Colorado_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Detroit_Michigan_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dresden_Germany_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_Ireland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edmonton_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Essen_Germany_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fargo_North_Dakota_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fort_Worth_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fresno_California_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gatineau_Quebec_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gisborne_New_Zealand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hawaii_US_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Heathrow_Airport_London_UK_street_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Helsinki_Espoo_Vantaa_Finland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hong_Kong_China_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Honolulu_Hawaii_US_street_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Houston_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Iceland_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indianapolis_Indiana_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Islamabad_and_Rawalpindi_Pakistan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Istanbul_Turkey_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jakarta_Indonesia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kansas_City_Missouri_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karachi_Pakistan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kelowna_British_Columbia_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kemi_and_Tornio_Finland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kiev_Ukraine_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kuala_Lumpur_Malaysia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kyoto_Japan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:La_Paz_and_El_Alto_Bolivia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lahore_Pakistan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lakewood_Ohio_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lancaster_Pennsylvania_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Las_Vegas_Nevada_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lausanne_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Laval_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Liege_Belgium_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lille_France_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lincoln_Nebraska_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:London_Center_UK_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:London_Greater_UK_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Los_Angeles_California_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Louisville_Kentucky_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lugano_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Luxembourg_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Luzern_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lviv_Ukraine_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lyon_France_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Macon_Georgia_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Manila_Philippines_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Martha's_Vineyard_Massachusetts_US_street_road_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mashhad_Iran_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Medellin_Colombia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Melbourne_Australia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Memphis_Tennessee_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mexico_City_Mexico_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Miami_Florida_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Milwaukee_Wisconsin_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Minneapolis_and_Sent_Paul_Minnesota_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Minsk_Belarus_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Montpelier_Vermont_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Montreal_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moscow_Russia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mountain_View_California_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Napier_New_Zealand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Braunfels_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Orleans_Louisiana_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_York_City_Greater_NY_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Olympia_Washington_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Orlando_Florida_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Osaka_Japan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ottawa_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Paris_France_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Perth_Australia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Philadelphia_Pennsylvania_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenix_Arizona_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pierre_South_Dakota_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pittsburgh_Pennsylvania_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Port_Arthur_Texas_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portland_Maine_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Portland_Oregon_and_Vancouver_Washington_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Porto_Portugal_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prague_Czech_Republic_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Quebec_City_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reading_Pennsylvania_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reno_Nevada_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reykjavik_Iceland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Richmond_Virginia_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rio_de_Janeiro_Brazil_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rome_Italy_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rotterdam_Netherlands_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sacramento_California_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saint_Petersburg_Russia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salem_Oregon_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salt_Lake_City_Utah_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:San_Francisco_and_Oakland_California_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:San_Juan_Puerto_Rico_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:São_Paulo_Brazil_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seattle_and_Bellevue_Washington_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shanghai_China_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sioux_Falls_South_Dakota_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:St._Gallen_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sydney_Australia_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tampa_Bay_Florida_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tampere_Finland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tauranga_New_Zealand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tehran_Iran_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tel_Aviv_Yafo_Israel_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tokyo_Japan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Toronto_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tulsa_Oklahoma_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turku_Finland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vancouver_Canada_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Warsaw_Poland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Washington_DC_and_Baltimore_MD_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Washington_DC_US_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wellington_New_Zealand_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Winterthur_Switzerland_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yokohama_Japan_street_map.svg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zurich_Switzerland_street_map.svg

Only SVG is listed here In all other formats - Illustrator, PDF, in layers - HERE: free vector city maps in Illustrator and PDF

Vectormapper (talk) 23:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you will be interested.
 * I tried to publish my maps in regular Wikipedia, in an article about cities. City maps were instantly demolished. Here is a discussion about this (a very stupid discussion)
 * Short:
 * 1. I'm bad because I have a nickname that speaks about my profession.
 * 2. I'm bad because my maps have a tiny signature of my logo.
 * 3. I'm bad because on my user page it says what I do - cartography. And it’s not written that I love cats and scuba diving.
 * 4. Free vector maps of cities are not needed in articles about cities, because (sorry, I can’t think of a reason for this), and also because “most users don’t need them.”
 * Vectormapper (talk) 02:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These are some great maps and with some modification, I can see how this would be of great use to travellers. One thing, though: are you able to remove the watermarks? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 04:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a vector SVG file, it can be easily edited in any vector editor - Illustrator, Corel, Inkscape))) In two clicks you can delete my logo (signature) Vectormapper (talk) 05:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure. If you don't mind me asking, what application did you use to create these maps? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 08:49, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Adobe Illustrator Vectormapper (talk) 18:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These maps look very cool and I've been looking for an excuse to dive into creating maps (like district maps for some of our cities). I can use one of these files as a starting point on my learning trail.....thanks! Mrkstvns (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your kind words. I am very glad that my cards were useful to you Vectormapper (talk) 18:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm so glad you are here. We really need more people who understand maps.
 * You might also be interested in these pages, too:
 * Requests for maps
 * Mapmaking Expedition
 * Regions map Expedition
 * Map
 * For these pages and their talk pages (separately), if you look in the "More" menu, you should see a "Subscribe" link. If you click that, any time someone posts a signed comment on these pages, you'll get a notification, even if you're at Wikipedia instead of here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks))) It's so interesting))) I hope, I can help somebody with maps))) Vectormapper (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I went to this link Requests for maps - I have almost all of these cards that are requested here in more or less finished form. Something is ready and published on Wikimedia (for example, Zurich, Canberra, Edmonton). I did not understand how to answer the request on this page. My answer should probably just be a link to a Wikimedia-published map of a city or region? But there is no "reply" button on the page? Or did I misunderstand something? Vectormapper (talk) 05:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It looks like most of the requests are unsigned. Feel free to use the [Edit] or [Edit source] button for each section.  You'll have to manually add a signature by typing   at the end of your message.
 * Or (I think) you can add the maps directly to the listed articles, and then remove the request from the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I will try Vectormapper (talk) 02:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Charlottesville_Virginia_US_street_map.svg Vectormapper (talk) 21:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Saint Petersburg, Russia street map https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saint_Petersburg_Russia_street_map.svg Vectormapper (talk) 05:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Banner images
Hi. I'm new to Wikivoyage and have a quick question: is consensus required to change the banner image of an article, or can I simply change the value of the property on Wikidata? Thanks.   [[User:CanonNi ]]  (talk • contribs) 00:50, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm glad you asked. Yes, the procedure is to propose a new pagebanner on the relevant article's talk page and see how discussion goes. Of course, if there's no existing pagebanner, please add one! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand. Thanks for the quick reply!   [[User:CanonNi ]]  (talk • contribs) 01:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Is it typical for an editor to change the property on Wikidata? I would never have thought to change a banner that way, I simply edit the first line of the topic (which typically pagebanner....)
 * What do most of y'all do? Any reason to do anything with wikidata? Mrkstvns (talk) 05:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think so. I understand that whatever pagebanner image is at Wikidata is the pagebanner by default for every language version of Wikivoyage, unless overriden locally. I don't think we should try to control what happens at other Wikivoyages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If I am adding a banner for the first time, I usually also add it to Wikidata, so it is available for other languages. If I am changing a banner after a discussion, I am more sparing in changing it on Wikidata. I will change the WD value if there is a problem with the existing banner (wrong location or doesn't meet the size requirements), but usually don't otherwise if the banner is already used in other languages. Often other languages have articles that cover vastly different areas, so a picture of something from the city centre is appropriate in some languages, but belongs in a more local article in others. AlasdairW (talk) 10:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When I have created banners for Wikivoyage, I use an image from Wikimedia Commons, crop it, and create a new image in Commons using the cropped version. Martinvl (talk) 11:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

The time allocated for running scripts has expired.
When I look at Old Towns, the message "The time allocated for running scripts has expired." replaces all listings with markers from China on downward. Is it like that for everyone else? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 * The problem seems to be that there are way, way, way too many markers for the map to handle. Way too many. It is exceedingly useless. Did I mention that there are way too many markers? Ground Zero (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] Something needs to be done to the article anyway. The markers reach the limit of 99 before halfway down the destination list. Are all these really "famous old towns" by the definition of "inhabited urban districts of decent size and population, open to the public, that have remained largely intact since around 1850 (or 1900 in the New World), or have been faithfully restored to that state"? They might be, but I think Avoid long lists applies. –LPfi (talk) 15:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * For Paris, Copenhagen and Stockholm there are even separate markers for two districts. And there are descriptions on, eh, less than two dozen of them. Could some of these listings be left for Medieval and Renaissance Italy, Roman Empire & al? –LPfi (talk) 15:57, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Checking my area, the only famous Old Town is Plovdiv, though you can also make an argument for Veliko Tarnovo (which, ironically, is not in the list). The rest have scattered old buildings and/or European-style fin-de-siecle buildings that are too new for the definition. I'm going to remove the other cities. Not that it will help much... Daggerstab (talk) 23:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that's w:en:Wikipedia:Lua error messages. Probably sub-dividing/shortening the page is the only near-term fix. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If we're getting that error, it's a sign that the article violates Avoid long lists. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "The 7±2 rule applies to destination articles, but not necessarily to itineraries, phrasebooks and travel topics, where different rules may be more appropriate." This is a travel topic, so the rule does not always apply. AlasdairW (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not, but common sense should still apply, and as Ground Zero has noted, there are "way, way, way too many markers". Mrkstvns (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I meant. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 22:58, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Best fix is to remove the markers entirely. There are so many of them (and they are so dense in some areas) that putting them on a map makes no sense. Just list and link them. If a country has more than a few, a separate article with a list and map would be fine. Powers (talk) 17:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What's the point of such an overview article, if you can't see where the cities are? I'd say the solution is to split the article into per-continent subarticles, or whatever, and keep the markers... -- andree 05:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The point is the links to our articles. You can't see where the cities are anyway because there are so many of them. Powers (talk) 00:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The map is interactive, with a zoom function. If you are interested in some area, just zoom in on it. If you don't know where in the world the city mentioned in a listing is, just click the marker to get a map centred on that place. –LPfi (talk) 02:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * One thing we could try is putting the coordinates directly in the marker templates instead of fetching them from Wikidata. I imagine that would help, though I don't know if it would be enough to get rid of the errors. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See also Talk:Old_towns. Pashley (talk) 01:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi am at SA
How to use this app to travel

41.114.193.222 18:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 * It is a travel guide, so mostly you use it by looking up destinations. These are arranged in a hierarchy & you might look at higher-level articles like France or even Europe when planning a trip, then lower level ones like Paris for details as you go. For most destinations, it is a good idea to at least skim the country article -- which covers things like language & laws -- as well as reading up on your actual destination.
 * There are also articles for things that apply at many destinations like altitude sickness or bargaining; see Travel topics for a list.
 * There are also Itineraries for particular routes, anything from the Kokoda Track through New Guinea to Literary London. Pashley (talk) 20:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There is also an offline version. Travel Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 12:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Toronto meetup edit-a-thon
Hey fellow travellers, I will be running a workshop on Wikivoyage in Toronto meetup tomorrow. Giving you guys a heads up since there may be a small influx of new editors during this session. They will be primarily editing on Canadian pages, but may also include other countries or Wikivoyage languages. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 15:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Huh. I might have gone to that, but I see registration is closed. Pity. Ground Zero (talk) 16:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Have a great workshop! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The event went well. Some people had to leave early before my Wikivoyage demonstration so I only showed how to edit on a projector without them adding/updating contents on their own. @Ground Zero we closed the registration since the RSVP list exceeded the room capacity. However, about a quarter of them "no-showed". I'm pretty sure we can accommodate you if you're available next time (tentatively in late October). <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 02:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Voting to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter is ending soon
<section begin="announcement-content" />
 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hello everyone,

This is a kind reminder that the voting period to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter will be closed on July 9, 2024, at 23:59 UTC.

If you have not voted yet, please vote on SecurePoll.

On behalf of the Charter Electoral Commission,<section end="announcement-content" />

RamzyM (WMF) 03:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

U4C Special Election - Call for Candidates
<section begin="announcement-content" />
 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hello all,

A special election has been called to fill additional vacancies on the U4C. The call for candidates phase is open from now through July 19, 2024.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. Community members are invited to submit their applications in the special election for the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, please review the U4C Charter.

In this special election, according to chapter 2 of the U4C charter, there are 9 seats available on the U4C: four community-at-large seats and five regional seats to ensure the U4C represents the diversity of the movement. No more than two members of the U4C can be elected from the same home wiki. Therefore, candidates must not have English Wikipedia, German Wikipedia, or Italian Wikipedia as their home wiki.

Read more and submit your application on Meta-wiki.

In cooperation with the U4C,<section end="announcement-content" />

-- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 00:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I do find it interesting how they've barred anyone from enwiki, dewiki or itwiki as their homewiki from running – interesting to see how this would turn out. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 00:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If they didn't have a rule like that, the committee would be 100% from the English Wikipedia.
 * I imagine that they'll have two from the French Wikipedia next, because of its size, and then Portuguese and Spanish Wikipedias, if Iberocoop decides to get involved.
 * @Keegan (WMF), you've unfortunately got two bad links in the "In this special election" paragraph. They're pointing to the local wiki instead of Meta-Wiki. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Welp, it looks like I've just made one of the two (as of typing this) candidates ineligible (blocked on Meta-Wiki), for the better or worse. I'm glad they had this rule for the reasons you mention, but I wouldn't be surprised if we had one from the English Wikibooks (Leaderboard). -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 23:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Autoconfirmed user criteria
Continuing on the discussion from, I've made a proposal to change the criteria at Wikivoyage talk:Autoconfirmed users – any input would be greatly appreciated. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation’s Accreditation to World Intellectual Property Organization Blocked for a Fourth Time by China (WMF news article)
I think some of you might be interested with this article. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 23:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Pocket vocabularies in Destinations section
I added a pocket vocabulary at the start fo the Destinations section of the article Wales giving the Welsh words for river, estuary, castle, caern, church, bridge and ford, thus enabling the user to see that "Abertawe" (Swansea) means "mouth of the [river] Tawe". Should Wikivoyage have such vocabularies (limited to say nine entries)? If so, is the location that I have chosen an appropriate place for such a vocabulary? Comments? Martinvl (talk) 11:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * There is a similar list of words in the talk section of Scotland, which is probably a better place for this. I see that "aber" is on both lists. AlasdairW (talk) 13:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * On a similar note, I noticed that the Cornish word for "Falmouth" is "Aberfal". As regards putting the list in the "Talk" section, there might be a case to split the section regarding lcal language into two - one assocaiated with town names (and hence with getting around) and the other associated with communicating with the local people (pleasantries, food etc). To thi send, an alternative might be to create a template which will generate the table as shown on the right. If this stored as a template, then it can be re-used in Wales, North Wales, Mid Wales and South Wales. Martinvl (talk) 15:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Aren't the other regions covered by having the list in Wales? For languages that have a phrasebook, the list could be included there – but such vocabulary isn't suggested in the template. The problem, especially in Talk, is that there may be quite a lot of useful words and phrases. As you note, there are also a few different categories of such words. Beside city names and pleasantries, there are at least words useful for drivers ("forbidden", "centre", "station") and words useful for hikers ("ford", "refuge"). Added as infoboxes, these list would crowd out images, which are nicer layout-wise than several infoboxes. –LPfi (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of explaining common place names. Depending, it could fit in a ==Get around== section (if 'anything named ____ is a bridge' is relevant) or a ==See== section (if 'anything named ____ used to have a castle there' is relevant).
 * I think I would only create a table like this if there were several such names for the similar topic (e.g., these eight about geographical features). If it's just one, two, or three, I think that it would be better to explain it in lively prose.  This could result in 10+ words being explained in prose throughout the article (e.g., common words for drivers in ===By car=== plus common words for food in ==Eat==, etc.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I see your point about including such a brief list in the section "Getting around", but I think that the short vocabulary should be close to where one would use it. The words that I chose for the Welsh table that I used earlier are all connected with the names of Welsh towns (or mountains) and so the obvious place to include them would be in the section on towns and cities. However, I see a case for a similar list to be included in the "Getting around" section linking to localities within a city. I would not create such a list for Welsh as in Wales virtually all words in this list occur on bilingual signs. I have therefore created a list in German. Martinvl (talk) 20:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I think it's most elegant and sensible to keep lists of words in "Talk." Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

 * What you say is certainly sensible for lists of words that give foreign translations of English words and phrases - for example "How do I say 'Thank you '". But when we are translating a foreign language into English. things are different. For exampe why do so many Welsh towns start with "Aber-"? If this question is answered where the reader comes across the situation, they will realise that "aber" means the mouth of a river. If however this information is located in the "Talk" section, it is unlikely that the reader wil follow it up. That is why I suggest putting it in the "Destinations" section and similarly for localities being put in the "Getting around" or the "See" section.Martinvl (talk) 22:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I tend to think that dividing things up like that is not elegant, except in dedicated phrasebooks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In country articles, we should keep this in Talk. However it may help the reader to add this the meaning of Aber to the Understand section of the relevant cities - Aberporth, Aberdyfi, Abercastle and Aberystwyth. AlasdairW (talk) 23:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Video
Hey All, We at Wiki Project Med have build a tool to create short clips zooming into specific locations in the world, as part of our VideoWiki effort. Not sure if some folks here have an interest in creation videos. Here is an example of one of the videos made with this tool. Additionally we are having a meeting about video at Wikimania 2024. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

 * We have generally thought that videos are too difficult to make well for them to be useful here. For me, I think a video zooming in on a map is less useful than the dynamic map centred on the location, where I can zoom in (and out) at my own pace. Also the tuberculosis video linked as example would work better for me as just audio: I had difficulty following the speech while something was happening in the animation.
 * People differ, of course, and one doesn't need to play a video just because there is a link. It would be good to see examples where the videos really are worthwhile for at least some people.
 * –LPfi (talk) 12:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think one of the big difficulties with videos is providing for a wiki friendly way of editing them. If we have a text guide to a city, it is easy for any editor to make a small change to say that the museum now is closed on Wednesday, but it is much harder to do that with a video without the edit sticking out (different voice?). It is hard to provide an easy way to insert the extra or replacement words at exactly the correct moment. If I look at a city guide, it is not immediately obvious whether I am looking at the work of 3 editors over 1 month or 30 editors over 15 years, but unless there are really great tools to support co-operative editing a video updated by 30 editors will be far too jumpy. How will other editors review changes to see that touts haven't plugged their wares without re-watching the video?
 * Very short videos may be useful for some instructional matters, to explain things that are hard to put into to words - maybe how to eat with chopsticks, or open an unusual train door. AlasdairW (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The videos are compiled with text to speech. Thus one can change a single word and easily create a new version. VideoWiki basically allows easy collaborative video editing within a mediawiki. Travel Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 23:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I find that video size is the Kryptonite of any videos. Compress the file size too much and the video becomes too blurry to be useful. Keep the video high quality and it takes a long time to buffer (sometimes won't even load in remote places). <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 15:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia Movement Charter ratification voting results
<section begin="announcement-content" />
 * You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hello everyone,

After carefully tallying both individual and affiliate votes, the Charter Electoral Commission is pleased to announce the final results of the Wikimedia Movement Charter voting.

As communicated by the Charter Electoral Commission, we reached the quorum for both Affiliate and individual votes by the time the vote closed on July 9, 23:59 UTC. We thank all 2,451 individuals and 129 Affiliate representatives who voted in the ratification process. Your votes and comments are invaluable for the future steps in Movement Strategy.

The final results of the Wikimedia Movement Charter ratification voting held between 25 June and 9 July 2024 are as follows:

Individual vote:

Out of 2,451 individuals who voted as of July 9 23:59 (UTC), 2,446 have been accepted as valid votes. Among these, 1,710 voted “yes”; 623 voted “no”; and 113 selected “–” (neutral). Because the neutral votes don’t count towards the total number of votes cast, 73.30% voted to approve the Charter (1710/2333), while 26.70% voted to reject the Charter (623/2333).

Affiliates vote:

Out of 129 Affiliates designated voters who voted as of July 9 23:59 (UTC), 129 votes are confirmed as valid votes. Among these, 93 voted “yes”; 18 voted “no”; and 18 selected “–” (neutral). Because the neutral votes don’t count towards the total number of votes cast, 83.78% voted to approve the Charter (93/111), while 16.22% voted to reject the Charter (18/111).

Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation:

The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees voted not to ratify the proposed Charter during their special Board meeting on July 8, 2024. The Chair of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees, Nataliia Tymkiv, shared the result of the vote, the resolution, meeting minutes and proposed next steps.

With this, the Wikimedia Movement Charter in its current revision is not ratified.

We thank you for your participation in this important moment in our movement’s governance.

The Charter Electoral Commission,

Abhinav619, Borschts, Iwuala Lucy, Tochiprecious, Der-Wir-Ing<section end="announcement-content" />

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

It's error time
Anybody else getting this error repeatedly for more or less any action on this website?

MediaWiki internal error.

Original exception: [93545f3b-e9b4-4b54-a4c5-4e3e72ec05d7] 2024-07-19 00:27:09: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBUnexpectedError"

Exception caught inside exception handler.

Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.

Brycehughes (talk) 00:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Servers I think were down just then – I believe that everything's back up now. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 01:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Crowdstrike?? Brycehughes (talk) 11:44, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so – Crowdstrike happened much later in the day whereas this outage happened around midnight UTC. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 11:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I went to bed on the above error and woke up to the Crowdstrike error, so was confused about the timelines :) Brycehughes (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, diff story for me where I was awake when both outages happened :/. SHB2000  (t | c | m) 13:09, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Usually, when you get that error, you want to wait five minutes and try again. Most (but not all) of these clear up within a couple of minutes on their own, as automated systems detect and route around the fault. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub