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Talk:Bihar

Understand
Um.. This section is going to have to be put in prose and each point explained. I have no idea what some of these things are. And this "the land of..the land of..the land of.." is just goofy. (WT-en) Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I deleted it... someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:52, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I would request users to stop being racist and insulting the people and the land.

 * it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India.

 * The above line don't says anything about Bihar, but about the person who speaks it. For God's sake stop ranting. Is there no rule on this website?  (WT-en) Manoj nav 05:32, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Improvement
The article needs a lot of improvement. Many new article related on places in Bihar has to be started.

Bihar had many important tourist places like Bodh Gaya, Gaya, Nalanda, Patna, Vaisali etc, which are important to Buddhist tourists, who visit these sites every year in huge number. We need good tourist information guide for all these places. These articles should also convey information about the improved law and order situation in the state.

(WT-en) Manoj nav 06:05, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I think there is going to have to be a compromise here. Instead of erasing what was previously written here, it's probably better to qualify it, using phrases like, for example, "Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions" etc.   To give a balanced view, I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems which may arise, yet we do need to describe the points of interest that it does have. Facts about crime indices, etc., are indeed facts and shouldn't be suppressed, and I think even the William Dalyrimple quote should stay. But it doesn't have to stop you from describing the good points as well.  (WT-en) Texugo 07:36, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * This - ""Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions", again is a rant.
 * Who is William Dalyrimple and what makes his statement so important? His statement, even thought it might his truth, is just a rant. Have you visited Bihar? Do tourists visit Bihar to discover the poverty of the region? Tourists go there to see the land, monuments, to discover the people, to see farmlands, rivers, festivals and not the poverty. Who in this world is interested in other's poverty? William Dalyrimple's statement, which is in a bad tone, deserves no place here. Even if Bihar is the poorest place on the whole planet, so what? Is it a crime to be poor?
 * I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems.? It should be there in the title safty, restricted to the fact that it helps the travelers.
 * Users please stop using wikivoyage to vomit your personal opinions and hate. (WT-en) Manoj nav 09:17, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I personally think it has a place here, I find it to be good writing actually, but feel free to continue the paragraphs with some pluses like...

 * "...things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go. However the travellers who do venture here, are rewarded with a wealth of unique culture, impressive nature and friendly locals etc..."

 * That's my take on it anyway --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:22, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I would like to forward a similar discussion, on the same topic, which took place on wikipedia - here.
 * Dalrymple and a few others are known Bihar baiters whose writing should be taken in the right perspective. He has even denigrated the supreme sacrifice of the leader of the 1857 Mangal Pandey. Dalrymple comment is more in a bad tone. The circumstances in which he would have said this would be totally different. (WT-en) Manoj nav 09:50, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Instead of placing the following controversial section in the article, so that people can have a lot at it and discuss, it is better to have it in the discussion page it self.

Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali

Ancient Bihar was the birthplace of the Maurya Empire, the largest ever to rule the Indian subcontinent, and the site of the Buddha's enlightenment. Unfortunately the Maurya Empire collapsed in 185 BCE, and it's been downhill ever since. Struck by severe recession in the 1990s that saw Bihar become a byword for poverty, corruption and crime, things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go. - Why to place a controversial section in the article at all until there is a concencus? I am removing the controversial section. (WT-en) Manoj nav 10:01, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * I have done some edit, hope everyone agrees. (WT-en) Manoj nav 11:02, 4 December 2008 (EST)

 * OK, please try to listen to the points being made. You are essentially "fighting" a group of rather experienced users; (WT-en) me,(WT-en) Jpatokal, (WT-en) Texugo and (WT-en) WindHorse, while I haven't - I know some of these guys have travelled India quite extensively, and I hardly think you can disqualify all of us as "Bihar bashers". You should at least stop and consider that all of us are essentially saying the same thing; STOP fighting/disqualifying factual information (and good writing), and spend the passionate energy you obviously have for the place, on telling users why - despite the poor population, crumbling infrastructure, and caste uprisings - it's a fantastic place that they should go see - maybe look at some of the American states - like Alaska or Florida for inspiration. Considering this is the site of Buddha's enlightenment, and a pilgrimage destination as far as I can gather, there should be more than enough subjects to dive into... just remember that region articles should be mainly prose, and listings should go on the city articles. (WT-en) Stefan 02:16, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Experience on wikivoyage doesn't necessarily means an experience on the topic Bihar. Anyways I never go for a self praise. Kindly verify before you call something factual information. Stereotypes are not factual informations. Using terms like 'crumbling infrastructure' shows your ignorance. There are lesser infrastructure like roads, airports, hospitals .. but it doesn't mean that they are crumbling. (WT-en) Manoj nav 02:45, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * My apologies, broadside warning, but I don't like being called ignorant. That is actually a quote from The Economist WP, which is a rather well respected publication; "...and chronic misrule that has led to crumbling infrastructure, collapsing education and health systems and evaporating law and order..." So go right ahead and call them ignorant, but leave me out of that, I clearly stated that I have never been to India, which I would think made it clear I was quoting other sources. And no, experience on WT doesn't make anyone an expert on a destination, but it sure does help on experience on how to write good guides - which was my whole point, which I'll state again; show both the good and the bad sides of a destination, from a travellers perspective (where a crumbling, inferior, lacking - or whatever you want to call it - infrastructure actually matters a great deal). Others seem to be doing quite well on the negative side, so you should focus on writing what's good about Bihar, instead of throwing up a big fuss about criticisms about your state - which judging from the number of people reporting on them - probably aren't grabbed out of thin air. The article can clearly be expanded, So why don't you write something about the culture, geography, how to get around, important festivals, Bihari, local dishes etc., that will prepare visitors on what to expect, guide them to the good stuff, and won't leave them disappointed. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:14, 6 December 2008 (EST)

 * Look I have been too good till now. I don't have time to waste fighting with racist gangs to contribute for wikivoyage. There to many other good websites, which genuine tourist can find. Please understand what I am saying. You guys have just ganged up. I felt that wikivoyage would be a good website to share my experiences and so I came here. Lots of people do it during free time as hobbies. (WT-en) Manoj nav 11:42, 6 December 2008 (EST)

What is this if now a racist gang.. read the comments. These comments show the mentality of the writers. (WT-en) Manoj nav 11:53, 6 December 2008 (EST)
 * 08:50, 28 November 2008 Cacahuate (Talk | contribs) (2,466 bytes) (rvt, we don't gloss over the facts, bihar is a shithole by most estimations)
 * Um.. This section is ... Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST) - Nice way of starting a talk...
 * someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – cacahuate
 * ..which one should we ditch?

 * Well, you can call us facists for insisting on a certain way of doing things, like giving lively writing priority, over dry encyclopedic recitation (which seems to be what you are mostly offended by), and putting the traveller first, and over the sensitivities of natives... But, from what I know about myself and these other guys, I hardly think any of us qualifies as a racist. The Armpit of India and shithole is cacahuate's personal opinion, posted on the talk page as far as i gather, where i find a certain bluntness perfectly acceptable - If I had seen in the article, i would probably have deleted it.

 * And I would love to have you sticking around and improving the guides, but if you are this easily offended, you are probably going to end up with heart attack sooner or later around here --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 14:04, 6 December 2008 (EST)

 * I pity that you don't understand what racism means. Being an administrator on wikivoyage you should know that even content on this talk page is covered under CC license if you can read on the page. Words like Armpit and shithole have been used here not for any individual offend but to offend a place and community. Atleast administrators should not make loose talks and encourage rant talking on wikivoyage. (WT-en) Manoj nav 14:23, 6 December 2008 (EST)

He, maybe you should read it yourself, it says nothing about restricting rants on a wiki talk page, it's pretty much all about the rights and obligations regarding redistrubution of content :) And apparently no, if me calling say, the rustbelt, the armpit of America, with high crime rates in the inner cities, large desolate area's, social decay, and nothing much to look at, constitute racism, then i might just be one, but if that's the definition i don't mind the label too much. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:52, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Cities
There is one city too many listed, magic number is 9, which one should we ditch?

William Dalrymple
...is a historian, travel writer and journalist (WP) who has spent nearly two decades living in and covering India, and his books are mandatory reading for anybody who wants to even attempt to understand India. But the point of the quote is not his opinion, but the facts he states:

 * Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali

If you disagree with that, then show me a state in India which has lower literacy, higher deaths in police custody, worse roads, higher crime or fewer cinemas than Bihar. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:57, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * ...and oh, there actually is one factual inaccuracy in that. These days, Bihar's GDP per capita is not half the Indian average...   it's one fifth ($148 vs $997). (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)

There are so many historians and so many journalists. I didn't even know about William Dalrymple before I ran into this discussion.

Higher crime : Rising crime graph in MP

As per the recently released annual report of the National Crime Records Bureau, the state has earned the dubious distinction of being the crime capital of the country for third consecutive time.

MP, Maharashtra top list of states reporting crimes

Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra have earned the dubious distinction of topping the list of states reporting the most number of crime cases in the country, which registered over 19.89 lakh cases.

Deaths

Our greatest achievement: longer lives : In terms of per capita income, the richest major state, Maharashtra is four times as rich as Bihar. '''Yet, life expectancy in Bihar (61 years) is only slightly behind that of Maharashtra (66.4 years). Bihar is almost on par with the national life expectancy of 62.7 years.'''

Number of deaths in police custody is not an index of prosperity and development, on the other hand life expectancy surely is.

Literacy : Dismissing the state as the most illiterate makes no sense. One should look at figures to see how there is a gradual increase in the literacy in last many years. -. Women literacy has increased to 33.57% from 4.22% in last 50 years. On the other hand there are states like West Bengal, which were far better in the past. But now they are barely above Bihar.

These information should be given in right prospective and not in a biased way.

Cinemas : Move over Bollywood, here's Bhojpuri

The industry, catering to 200m people who speak the Bhojpuri language - a dialect of Hindi - and live in the states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, is raking in cash like never before.

Sticking to home-grown Indian family melodramas and throwing in some glamorous faces and slick foreign locations for a contemporary feel, Bhojpuri films are often outperforming Bollywood biopics at the box office these days.

(WT-en) Manoj nav 01:34, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Apparently William Dalrymple statement appears to be false or outdated. (WT-en) Manoj nav 01:43, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Hi (WT-en) Jpatokal would you please enlighten the tourists about these information through the respective pages. (WT-en) Manoj nav 01:50, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Will the users here have the courtesy to remove William Dalrymple's comment? (WT-en) Manoj nav 06:19, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Actually, it looks like you agree with Dalrymple's assessment on everything except crime, no? And take a look at : Uttar Pradesh and Bihar have reported high number of incidence with 26,693 and 23,039 cases representing 12.4% and 10.7% respectively of the total violent crimes reported in the country during 2007.  However, as Bihar has under half the population of UP, the actual incidence of crime is twice that of UP. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * What I am saying is Dalrymple's comment is nothing but a racist rant. Crime is inclusive of violent crime, which is lower in Bihar. (WT-en) Manoj nav 11:33, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Poor image of Bihar
After independence, when India was falling into an autocratic rule during the regime of Indira Gandhi, the main thrust to the movement to hold elections came from Bihar under the leadership of Jaya Prakash Narayan.

This resulted in two things:
 * 1) The identity of Bihar (from the word Vihar meaning monasteries) representing a glorious past was lost. Its voice often used to get lost in the din of regional clamor of other states, specially the linguistic states like Uttar pradesh, Madhya pradesh etc.
 * 2) Bihar gained an anti-establishment image. The establishment oriented press often projected the state as indiscipline and anarchy.

(WT-en) Manoj nav 02:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Hi Manoj, I think you misunderstand my position... I have nothing against Bihar personally, I've visited it a couple of times. But surely, considering it's your homeland, you're aware that it doesn't have the best reputation, right? Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Anyway, I agree the page needs some work, it's still in its beginning stages... but if you help to improve it, you have to keep a realistic tone... while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Also, we have different goals and writing style than you will find on Wikipedia... we write our guides from a travelers point of view, and we don't want to sell anything to anyone. We just want to write about Bihar as it is, good and bad, without over-hyping the good... in a way, similar to WP's policy of not giving it undue weight – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 03:10, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * 1. Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Bihari people face prejudice and racism in India. This is well know. And advices like the one you have mentioned reflects such prejudice. I don't think wikivoyage is a place to spread stereotypes. I would say this - keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state holds for India and not just Bihar.
 * 2. while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Just because tourism department have sold something well, doesn't makes the state great. It's the tourism department which has to be appreciated. There are some Indian states who basic economy runs on tourism unlike Bihar where this sector has still not been explored. (WT-en) Manoj nav 03:30, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Re #1, you can call it prejudice and racism if you like, I call it a reputation, and it's our duty to inform the traveler of that reputation. I agree it applies to all of India as well, but it's of particular relevance to Bihar, or so the story goes.

 * It's our duty to inform the traveler the truth and not stories and stereotypes. We should call spade a spade. If it is prejudice and racism, it should be called as it is. The travelers should be cautioned of any wrong information passed to them by non-Biharis. Let the travels decide what is useful them. (WT-en) Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Re #2, we cover places that are currently of interest to travelers, such as Bodhgaya. How and why it became of interest to the traveler isn't important... travelers go there, so we'll write an article about it and cover it accurately. As for the rest of Bihar, we aren't here to push tourism into new areas, so we shouldn't try to sell it as a destination when it isn't really one at the moment – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 04:01, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * we shouldn't try to sell : I never asked anyone to sell; if you can read the comment. I have just tried to clear an ignorance on a point which was unnecessarily raise by you. (WT-en) Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)

 * Perfect, then it sounds like we're on the same page :) – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 04:27, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Hi,

No body try to sell bihar as a tourist destination, whatever I have written it was the fact about bihar, it is a fact that Bihar is birth place of two religion(Bhuddhism, Jainism) and it has a glorius past because of major historical landmark like Patliputra, Bodhgaya, Rajgriha, Vaishali, Nalanda & Vikramshila.

It was a power centre in ancient days, even Patna was a major trading centre in middle era(during Mughal), even British ruler also understand the strategic importance of patna thats why they made Patna as a capital of Bihar/Orissa in 1912AD.

Now a days Patna is a major business centre in eastern India, it is growing as a major education hub as IIT/NIFT/NIPER/NIT like institution has come up here so Pls. do'nt disgrace Bihar/patna.

Thanks

Piyush

 * Hi Piyush, nobody is trying to disgrace Bihar, but we have to describe it as is, from the point of view of a traveler. Most of the things you mention above are more relevant to Wikipedia than here... I'm happy the education and business are improving, but that doesn't really concern the traveler. This article could definitely use some expansion and improvements though, but just be careful to not try and make it look too sunny sunny, it has to reflect the current reality – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 14:17, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Hi, 'Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state.' I think the person who wrote this statement, did not traveled through Maharashtra (Sholapur area) where you have to forcely close the windows and doors of train by RPF and TTE. If you do not close then you would be hitted by stones. These all help criminals in snatching. Even police will not catch the criminals their, they will help you in closing door and windows. I think Bihar is in better position than this where you need to only keep your eyes on belongings.

Few days before 2 boggies of a train were burnt in Bihar due to one stopage was removed by railways. This news was highlighted by media saying bad law and orders in Bihar but 2 weeks before a number of trains burnt in Punjab just because a person was murdered in Austria. This was incident not decrease of law and order. I request that if you want to critisize any state then be fare and compare the same through other states also.

If you watch news then definitely you feel some improvements in Bihar in law & order, education etc. but anti bihari mentality are not changing in India. Please change this mentality and treat Bihar like other states.

Thanks Niraj

 * Hey Niraj, We've already made considerable compromises on this article (more than I personally would like) - So as I've urged time and time again, write about the good stuff, and leave the bad stuff as is now, so we get a balanced guide, which is how we like it here on Wikivoyage. Racism and degradation is not things we encourage, but neither is misguided patriotism. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:55, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

Bihar Crime
Bihar has a terrible reputation for crime and banditry (or dacoity, to use the Indian word), with armed bandits recently taking to hijacking moving trains and nearly 5000 kidnappings recorded in 2007

The train hijacking case was not happen in Bihar, It was the case of Jharkhand so pls. do'nt put such false n negative information of Bihar on such a authentic source of information, so I am deleting the said line.

In recent years/month law n order situation is improving so no need to put the no. of kidnappings happen in Bihar, pls. do'nt provide false information to tourist, Thanks

 * Again, removing everything that doesn't put Bihar up on a pedistal, is probably not the right way to go, so i reverted your changes. But if you are sure about the train hijackings i'll remove that paragraph. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:09, 16 January 2009 (EST)

 * Last year's case of the Naxalites hijacking the train was indeed in Jharkhand, but there are plenty of lower-profile cases of other attacks on trains in Bihar:    ("In the last three months 40 dacoities on trains have taken place in different divisions of Bihar") ... (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:23, 16 January 2009 (EST)

 * Also, the National Crime Records Bureau tallied 2530 kidnappings total in Bihar in 2008, it's just the kidnapping for ransom which is reported to be lower . I'd take both figures with a fistful of salt, chilli, coriander, turmeric and bhang though. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:29, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Hi,

Bihar has not the history of crime against any international tourist no rape/murder/hijacking/kidnapping then why you are putting crime statistics of Bihar on this site, as every body knows other place in India/World has crime history against tourist like Goa/Bali(Indonesia/Kathmandu/Jaipur) but on the webpage of such location no body has given any statistics related to crime, so why you people putting such statistics on Bihar page, I think it is not required at all.

Thanks

Piyush
 * Hi Piyush, sometimes quoting figures helps put things into prospective. It is like giving an actual figure for a country's GDP, such $60,000, rather than just making an abstract claim that the country is rich. In this respect, you are welcome to add the figures for the places you mentioned, though, to be honest, crime in Kathmandu or Bali is far less than in Bihar. Perhaps crime against foreigners is more in these places, but then there are far more foreigners visiting them. However, Bihar does have a history of banditry and kidnapping, and taken percentage-wise I would say crime against foreigners would still be much higher. Personally, I would concentrate on adding points of interest in the state rather than trying to gloss over the negative aspects and, hey, I'm a fan of Bihar. I have had many enjoyable journeys there. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I have to revert your edit as I think most travelers will benefit from the information you deleted, and it is a Wikivoyage policy that the traveler's well-being presides over all else. I hope you can accept that. Cheers. (WT-en) WindHorse 05:30, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Hi WindHorse, It is hardly important you are fan of Bihar or not, but do'nt deviate those tourist those are bound to visit Bihar, there is a social problem in Bihar(like gap in society income, gap in education etc.), these are the roots of crime in bihar but you must understand these crime has noting to do with foriegn/international tourism those are bound to visit place like Bodhgaya, Patna, Rajgir, Vaishali, Nalanda, Vikramshila, Kesaria and etc even those are uneffected till today so do'nt put such bad image of Bihar on the page.

Thanks

Piyush

 * This entire page so far is dedicated to saying 1) sorry but yes tourists do need to know of the reputation and the potential dangers, and 2) you'll be better off adding good things to the page rather than insisting on removing valuable information which isn't complimentary. I agree with Windhorse and all the others above. How about putting some good stuff in the See section-- it's currently blank. (WT-en) Texugo 07:04, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Hi WindHorse,

for your reference visit http://news.indiainfo.com/2008/01/13/0801131225_india_crime_record.html, Bihar is not on top in crime in India, so do'nt disgrace the place of Gautam Budha/ Mahavir / Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Piyush

 * I merely stated that I was a fan of Bihar so that you could understand that my reverts were based on objective reports, not personal prejudice. If someone can prove to me that crime rate in Bihar is low, I'd be happy to delete the stats, but from my research I can find no evidence to suggest this. While a lot of crime is among locals, there are also reports of tour buses being ambushed. However, if you can supply evidence to the contrary, I'm sure that my fellow contributors would, like myself, be happy to remove the stats. As I said, they are not placed there due to any personal vendetta against Bihar, but merely because we believe that they will help paint a clearer picture of the region for tourists heading there. Cheers. (WT-en) WindHorse 12:35, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Hi WindHorse, there are many region/state/place in India thier crime rate is always above the national average like UP,Jammu & Kashmir, Assam & other place in North Eastern states(Tripura,Meghalaya etc...) but wikivoyage page of these place have not mention such negative & horrifying statistics then why you have put the such statistics on Bihar page, I hope you will creaify!

Regards, --(WT-en) Piyush1919 03:24, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * Hi Piyush... Thanks for your response... The reason Bihar is specifically mentioned with regard to crime is because the crime is mostly on the street and tourists are targeted. Violence in Kashmir, Assam etc is related to independence movements and in general tourists are not the target, but the indigenous population. However, if you believe that violence in those states warrants more attention, please mention it in the articles for those regions. Sorry, I have revert your edit again. However, as I said earlier, if you can provide evidence that crime in Bihar is quite low and that tourists are not at risk, I'd be happy to help convince my fellow contributors to remove the statistics. Cheers, and sorry for keep reverting your efforts, but my priority is to provide travelers with information that will help them gain as clear picture of the places they visit as possible. (WT-en) WindHorse 03:55, 17 January 2009 (EST)

Hi WindHorse,

Whatever statistics referred by you is very old and stat of 2004/05, but things have been change now a days, no crime has recorded against foriegn tourist in Bihar but every body know there are regular crime is registering at Goa/Rajasthan against these tourist so do'nt do unjustice with Bihar.

Regards,

--(WT-en) Piyush1919 09:04, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * "The highest incidence of kidnapping was reported from Uttar Pradesh which accounted for 16.2 per cent (4,478 cases) followed by Bihar (2,530)." (Bihar having less than half the population of Utter Pradesh). Those figures are from 2008, And I'll go right ahead and add that to Uttar Pradesh in case they aren't there already. I personally think you should look at bit at what you are saying, it seems to me like you are conveying I shouldn't be warned about something like this, and put aside any safety concerns I could have with kidnappings, and potentially put myself in harms way, because it makes your home state look bad. Come on. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:20, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * Took a stab at rewriting the section, and noted that the situation is improving, as is reported on several news sites, after the appearance of the fast track courts. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:57, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * Otherwise good, but re: "and in absolute numbers, crime against foreigners remains comparably low to other more frequented Indian destinations", isn't this just because Bihar gets so few tourists compared to eg. Rajasthan or Goa? I don't think there are any solid stats on this either... (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:04, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * Yup, probably, but all in the good spirit of a compromise, you take some, you give some :) But I added a 'but' even if it makes some terrible English --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:14, 17 January 2009 (EST)

 * A good compromise... Thanks for your efforts... I made a slight grammatical edit to make sentence shorter - please change back if you feel the original was clearer (WT-en) WindHorse 10:48, 17 January 2009 (EST)

Regions
I have tried to define (in the respective regions articles), which of Bihar's districts are in which sub-regions. Comments, anybody? (WT-en) ClausHansen 16:48, 3 January 2010 (EST)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Muzaffarpur, Bihar.jpg

Regional organisation
Since Anga and Bhojpur (region) have low number of bluelinked destinations, I'll merge Anga to Mithila. For Bhojpur, I'll merge its southern part to Magadha and northern part to Mithila. Although the resultant regions will no longer correspond to the language areas, I'm doing it to organise travel content efficiently. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 05:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

 * I think I should keep Bhojpur as the region has its own importance. If that region is going to be merged anyway, I think the entirety should go to Magadha. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 18:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Formatting disaster
At least on my system (Firefox on Linux) the display of this page is currently the worst mess I have ever seen on WV. Lots of stuff from mapframe, maplink & parameters to those are shown. These should be controlling map display but instead they are displayed as large blocks of awful text.

I suspect the problem is some fairly simple syntax error, but I cannot spot it. Anyone? Pashley (talk) 08:20, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

 * Just inserting some blank lines seems to have fixed it. Pashley (talk) 10:59, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * it was a short-lived bug – see Travellers' pub. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:29, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bihar


text:
Talk:Bihoro

 * It would be nice to make the town sound not so bad — most places have at least two or three good points that can be brought out in a favorable light. On the other hand, if it really is entirely bad (which I imagine is unlikely), why is there an article for it at all? --(WT-en) Orcrist 10:04, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Bihoro


text:
Talk:Billings

Doesn't anyone have a better image or two of Billings? I think the present one is a good starter but those that have any images of Billings that look good ought to upload and add it to the original pic. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 76.214.237.231 (talk • contribs) 31 Dec 2006

title: Talk:Billings


text:
Talk:Binghamton

Greek Peak
I have moved Greek Peak to the 'get out section since it is not in the Binghamton Region. —The preceding comment was added by 96.238.198.216 (talk • contribs)

Guide?
It's nice to see another Upstate city nearing Guide status. What else (if, indeed, anything) does Binghamton need before it's upgraded? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's in pretty good shape. I'd like to see a map but strictly speaking it's not necessary for Guide status. I think the bullets in Go next need to be expanded to full one-liner listings. And it would be nice to have some hotel listings with more than just contact info. Powers (talk) 20:49, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Looking over the article again, it also strikes me that much of "Get around" (specifically "Highways and roads" and "River crossings") is encyclopedic in tone and overly detailed, and ought to be condensed. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:31, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
 * And "Parking", too. I think we have consensus to condense as Andre suggests, preserving the key points. Ground Zero (talk) 18:39, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, too, but the information in the "Parking" section is useful, so let's preserve the content while condensing the bullet points into a few (maybe a couple of) sentences. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:45, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * What is our policy on the highway sign logos? I haven't seen those in other WV articles that I can recall. Looking through the highways and roads section, I think that the information that should be retained, i.e., that which is not "encyclopedic", is the information about which roads can get congested. The information on what road goes where is the sort of thing you can find better displayed on a road map or GPS app. Thoughts? Ground Zero (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Highway sign logos are used in routemaps in "Go next"; I don't think they should be in the body of the article. I think that the information about where these routes go is fine to include (in cases in which they go to and from other cities, such as Owego) in the reverse in the "Get in" section), but it should all be encapsulated. We are basically in agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

This section seems encyclopedic to me, especially when it is in an already-long article. Can we remove it?Ground Zero (talk) 12:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Important local roads
 * Chenango Street Main thoroughfare through Binghamton/Port Dickinson/Hillcrest on the east bank of the Chenango River.
 * Clinton Street Main thoroughfare through the First Ward in Binghamton. Home to Antique Row.
 * Conklin Ave Main thoroughfare through Binghamton/Conklin on the south bank of the Susquehanna River.
 * Court Street Main thoroughfare through Binghamton east of the Chenango River.
 * Floral Ave Largely residential. It connects Main Street in Binghamton to the Traffic Circle.
 * Front Street Main thoroughfare through Binghamton/Port Dickinson on the west bank of the Chenango River.
 * Hooper Road Main thoroughfare through Endwell.
 * Main Street Once was the major connecting road of the Triple Cities (Binghamton, Endicott, and Johnson City) and served as the commercial heart of each. Many unique small shops can still be found in each of their respective shopping districts.
 * Old Vestal Road Once was the main east/west thoroughfare through Vestal. It now serves as an alternative to the Vestal Parkway, but can become congested with other people seeking to do the same.
 * Riverside Drive Main thoroughfare through Binghamton/Johnson City along the north bank of the Susquehanna River. Notable for the number of large, historic residences along its length.

Subdivision of this page?
An article was just started on Endicott. I started a thread to discuss those and potential articles about other Greater Binghamton towns at Talk:Endicott. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:47, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Binghamton


text:
Talk:Bintan

this article will be written by someone who made some bad experiences on the island. it is unbelievable that he uses wikivoyage for his private probs. maybe he lost something in a taxi e.g. but it is just horrible to read. please delete this article or change it into a useful documentary!

 * Please Project:Plunge forward and change it! (WT-en) Jpatokal 19:39, 14 August 2006 (EDT)

The state of Bintan
I just wondered why you removed some of my recent edits, and put back in the part on prostitution etc? You are aware that much has been done to reduce this in recent years? All girlie bars in town have closed etc etc, the guy who ran most of these things will loose his diplomatic immunity in a couple of months, and will be prosecuted for suspected murder, and the only remaining girlie place has now been moved to km 24, well outside town, in a pragmatic recognition that prostitution is a fact of life.

As somebody who has run a fully local business there for the last 8 years - all my staff are locals - and who truly loves this island, which has turned into one of the most democratic regions of all of Indonesia, and boasts one of the richest histories in this region, I just don't feel it's right to emphasize the hookers, which nowadays only make up a very small portion of the overall "activities" available. Why not mention the fact that Bintan has a unique "people's union", where everyone can join for $ 1 per month and then enjoys free legal help in case of (the ever-more rare) government abuse? Or the fact that the island has democratically decided to stop sand exports to Singapore, using its new-found autonomy, so gracefully awarded by Gus Dur and emphasized by SBY? These are all remarkable things, contrary to most people's perceptions of Indonesia, and therefore worthy of mention.

My clients often go to Tanjung Pinang as well, and have never been courted by prostitutes. As an ordinary tourist, it is very easy to miss them. These days you really have to go and look for them.

Of course, I do have a commercial interest in promoting the real Bintan (and I must admit I have little love for Bintan resorts) but I firmly believe that the edits I made reflect the recent developments accurately - I would not have put them in otherwise

I respect the original author (you?) in the sense that Lobo etc receives a plug - I like the guy too and used to stay with him as a back packer way back then (but I did almost my entire PhD studies in a hammock at Yasin's bungalows during 1991 - 1994 :-)), but the truth is that East coast Bintan has radically changed too (I'm not sure Lobo is still around actually!), and that it is simply no longer a back packer beach. The back-packer resorts are now - for better or worse - vastly in the minority. So why not inform people accordingly? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) MarcVanLoo (talk • contribs)

 * The whitewashing was done by anonymous IPs, so sorry if I was a little too suspicious; I've toned down the prostitution comments. However, as a business owner (of Loola, presume?), you do have a bit of a conflict of interest here (please see eg. Welcome, business owners and Don't tout), and as a travel guide where the traveller comes first, Wikivoyage is not really interested in sand exports or people's unions.

 * And no, I was not the original author of the Trikora article. Please feel free to update it where out of date. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:48, 17 November 2008 (EST)

The anonymous IP was probably me, I only discovered the login option a few days ago - these are my first wiki days. I am very aware of the conflict of interest, and, as a scientist, I totally support the democratic peer-reviewed structure of Wiki. I have therefore not made any attempt to hide who I am. Nonetheless, I have not only added my own resort, but Agro beach resort and Nikoi and Pangkil island as well. Together, we are the main and most visited resorts on the East coast, and at close to 100 visitors a week on average, LooLa is the most visited resort on east coast, topping quite a few of the Bintan resorts. The comments I've made on these resorts on the Wiki stand up to public scrutiny and provide valuable information to the traveller. Why should the visitor of Wikivoyage get to hear all the details on the Bintan resorts, but not of the eco-friendly local style resorts on the East coast? Moreover, as somebody who knows Bintan intimately since 1991, I feel I have some valid contributions to make - having taken my interest so far so as to open my own business should not automatically disqualify me, only if I say nonsense, or my comments are blatantly biased.

 * There's one place where you can cover your resort, which is the listing of your resort in Trikora, and that should be kept down to a few factual sentences. If you want to do longer, personal reviews etc, that's what Extra is for. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:25, 18 November 2008 (EST)

 * I must disagree with you that travellers have no interest in the issues of sand export. For eco-tourists, such as many of our clients, the issue is fascinating: The digging of sand brought not only severe environmental degradation to the island, loss of jungle and loss of coastal fisheries through sediments, but the combination of the stagnant water pits left behind by sand digging on the one hand, and the Malaria-infected workers from other parts of Indonesia imported to work on the Bintan resorts on the other, conspired to create a Malaria epidemic that the island has only recently brought under control. All such issues have an obvious significant impact on tourism in general, and are of interest to eco-travellers such as myself. The fact that people power put a stop to these sand exports (overnight doubling the price of sand in Singapore, i.e taking on some powerful economic forces!) is a hopeful sign of where the island and the country at large are headed. I would imagine that the typical Wikivoyage reader should find such information interesting and relevant!? (WT-en) marcvanloo

 * It's still tangential information, but give it a shot on Bintan or as an infobox, if you can squeeze it down to a concise paragraph or two. There's a lot more to the sand ban than just "people power" though, see eg. . (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:25, 18 November 2008 (EST) ... Not much more really: the people in Riau were the ones who pushed this thing into existence, and some big shots may have tied to get some extra political mileage out of it. But no matter what extradition treaties Singapore signs or how much it pays for sand, the ban will not be lifted - because of local pressure.(WT-en) Marcvanloo 00:41, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Hello Jani,

Thanks for signature tip, but, on another note ....

Before you delete my entries, could you please check with me first? You have assumed the authority of a moderator and final decider here but on what basis exactly?

Do you have current experience with Bintan or was your last visit a couple of years ago? You know exactly who I am, and on what authority I speak, but I do not know who you are.

The section on eco-tourism should not have been deleted. The fact that LooLa is the main resort engaging in this is a matter of fact. But if, after reading this section, other resorts decide to follow suit, well that's perfect, and then they can add their stuff to this section. Eco-tourism is a valid point of interest, and should remain on the page.

Furthermore, you have added value judgments that aren't yours to make, such as saying that Nikoi and Pangkil are East coast's "best" resorts.

The Bintan page, as it is, remain highly unbalanced. The prostitution bits should simply be deleted, since they are no longer relevant. "Toning down", as you have decided, is not sufficient. Would you start a page on Singapore by saying that the town used to be famous for transvestite prostitution? It's simply no longer an issue.

If you think it is, please give reasons first, don't just undo my entries!

Sorry mate, but I'm a bit ticked off, especially since I didn't make copies of my entries and now will have to do some again ;-)

PS. Section on sleep in Trikora is well-done. No issues with that - good job.

 * You don't need to rewrite anything, every edit you (and I, and anybody

else,) has ever made to the Bintan article can be found right here:

 * http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Bintan&action=history

 * There are no "moderators" or "final deciders" on Wikivoyage. (I am an

administrator, but that just means I can delete entire articles, and doesn't affect article content at all.) You can erase all my edits if you want, but I can tell you that if you do, somebody else will come along and restore them: the eco-tourism section is inappropriate because all Wikivoyage articles follow set templates, and "Eco-Tourism" is not one of the standard headings (Get in, Eat, Sleep, Do, etc).

 * http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Region_article_template

 * Fair call on the "best" vs "expensive" bit, your latest set of edits to

Trikora was exactly the kind of thing we're looking for. And for what it's worth, Wikivoyage's Singapore article does cover the (still very much alive) prostitution industry, and Singapore/Bugis talks about its transvestite "Boogie Street" history. (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:18, 19 November 2008 (EST)

title: Talk:Bintan


text:
Talk:Bintulu

This page is successfully written! Please update more info on Bintulu especially with more photos. Don't forget to check my grammar and spelling too! Editing of this article for grammatical/spelling correction is very much welcomed!

(WT-en) Anwarul 15:30, 28 August 2008 (EDT)

I hope the editors can refrain from using this wikivoyage page for the purpose of advertisement. You can describe about food at your restaurant, but please mind the usage of your words. Do not simply put slogan or whatever nice luring words as it may breach the terms and conditions of Wikivoyage. Thank you for your attention.

124.82.104.166 06:53, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

title: Talk:Bintulu


text:
Talk:Bioko

Hi, Would it not be a good idea to make 'Fernando Po" redirect to this page? On Google Maps, the island is still shown with its old name and considering its importance to the country of Equitorial Guinea, it shouldn't be the hassle it is now to find the Bioko page. I don't know how you do this, so I'm just posting the idea here...

title: Talk:Bioko


text:
Talk:Bir

Pagebanner problem
The pagebanner is unusual but shows two monks' faces. Is that really OK? Image policy isn't really clear on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Specific URLs for general activities
I consider these all touting. The general info shouldn't be in a listing, and the listing should be for the name of the business, not "Meditate", "Paraglide", "Volunteer", "Yoga" - particularly if there's more than one possible choice for meditation, paragliding, volunteering and yoga. Does anyone want to argue this point before I edit out the touting? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:05, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The listings should be kept, but identified by the business name, not by the activity, as you suggest. Ground Zero (talk) 01:36, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bir


text:
Talk:Birding

I think this topic may be overbroad. If the author wants to include up-to-date sightings, then yes a Wiki is what he really needs. A wiki could include individual species pages with pointers to current sighting locations, and a geographic breakdown of the world to aid in finding species near a location.

But that's not wikivoyage. Perhaps the author should investigate using WikiCities as a basis for this project. And feel free to link from there to Wikivoyage articles for each location so your birders can find a place to stay or quick eats while on a birding road trip. -- (WT-en) Colin 23:43, 10 Dec 2005 (EST)

title: Talk:Birding


text:
Talk:Birdwatching in Peru

Is this an article?
Shouldn't information about Birdwatching in Peru first be featured in Peru before a sub article is written. What about moving it to a sub page? I am not convinced about the value of this as a separate article, unless all the birdwatching attractions are going to be collected here. -- (WT-en) Huttite 03:50, 22 Dec 2005 (EST)

 * I agree that the information should start out within the Peru article. I don't think birding is particularly different from other activities, and we don't (for example) do pages like "Bungee jumping in the United States".  I'd vote for a vfd. -- 13:07, 22 Dec 2005 (EST)

title: Talk:Birdwatching in Peru


text:
Talk:Birkenhead

We are temorairly living in Suzhou in Shanghai and we are interested in meeting other English Speaking people. I am in my fifties and my grandaughter is a teenager, Help

E-mail: cccsarge@hotmail.com

title: Talk:Birkenhead


text:
Talk:Birmingham (Alabama)

Taxis
What is the range for taxi rates in birmingham?

WiFi
Re. WiFi in Alabaster: <>< (WT-en) tbc 04:44, 29 April 2007 (EDT)
 * 1) The Dairy Queen closed. It has not yet opened at its new location.
 * 2) Buffalo Wild Wings does have a WAP, and I was able to connect. However, I couldn't connect to any web sites.

Get in: by bus
I removed the following: The MegaBus company and National Express Bus Service allows for visitors to arrive from a long or short bus ride (depending where you depart from) directly to the main bus terminal in Birmingham. I'm pretty sure this refers to a different Birmingham. (WT-en) Eco84 16:48, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
 * Oh, and I just removed the following from the Amtrak listing, for the same reasons as above: The National Railway Service has 3 main stations through Birmingham Alabama. They are located at the airport,center city and eastern Birmingham. Public bus transportation is also available at the station in order to conveniently move about the city. (WT-en) Eco84 17:04, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

List of neighborhoods
Right now, the series of names is useless. A list of names with descriptions would be marginally more helpful, but without any indication as to where in the city they are, that still wouldn't be useful. But how many of the neighborhoods are of likely interest to visitors?

Wouldn't it make more sense to delete the "Neighborhoods" section and instead substitute an "Orientation" section that explains how visitors can most effectively understand their position within the city and how to get to and between different places of interest to them? In such a section, neighborhoods of particular interest could be mentioned, with their positions relative to landmarks described. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:28, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Moved here for now:

Neighborhoods

 * Southside
 * Glen Iris
 * Avondale
 * Woodlawn
 * Eastlake
 * Highland Park
 * Forest Park
 * Downtown Loft District
 * Homewood
 * Mountain Brook
 * Vestavia Hills
 * Hoover
 * Roebuck
 * Leeds
 * Irondale
 * West End
 * Ensley
 * Hooper City
 * East Lake
 * Wenonah
 * Bessemer
 * Fairfield

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"Learn" section
I'm moving this here, because it has no content:

Learn

 * The University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB)
 * Birmingham-Southern College
 * Samford University
 * Miles College

If someone wants to make these into listings and specifically mention programs for non-matriculated students or accommodations for students doing a semester or year abroad, go ahead. Otherwise, "Learn" is optional, and we can leave the section out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Currently extant
the reason that I changed "currently the oldest extant professional baseball park in the United States" to "it is the oldest professional baseball park in the United States" is because they mean the same thing. The second version is shorter and less jargony.

The present tense does not imply permanence. "I am sick", "Donald Trump is president", "today is Sunday" are all uses of the present tense that are transitory. Does anyone think that the baseball park will continue to be the oldest park after it no longer exists? That really doesn't make sense. It is the oldest park now, and when it is torn down, it won't be any more.

"Currently extant" is a phrase we see in legal or academic writing, but we shouldn't be writing like lawyers or academics. I'm just trying to make the writing livelier by reducing redundancy and jargon. Ground Zero (talk) 09:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * as two weeks have passed with no response, I think it is reasonable for me to conclude that you do not object to me changing this back. Ground Zero (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ground Zero, I'd give him another day or so to reply. Andrew has been on spottily for a few weeks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I was going to wait several days. I don't want to be hasty. But if he chooses not to respond while being active, I'll go ahead. Ground Zero (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * For some reason I didn't get the notification that you'd pinged me with your February 23 comment, though I did for the more recent one. I edited the sentence because I thought it flowed better in the original way, but I don't feel particularly strongly about the issue and I'm not going to make a federal case about it if you want to change it back. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:30, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Birmingham (Alabama)


text:
Talk:Birmingham (disambiguation)

Why is Birmingham always slagged off in travel guides? Discuss at Talk:Birmingham (England).

Page reversion to Disambiguation page
I have reverted this page to a Disambiguation page following discussions about the naming of "Birmingham (Midlands)". Please discuss at Talk:Birmingham (England), not here. -- (WT-en) Huttite 04:59, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Birmingham (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Birmingham

So, I moved this page from Birmingham, since that name is also used for Birmingham (Alabama). According to our article naming conventions, we use the next largest containing geographical area -- I think it's the Midlands for Birmingham -- to disambiguate two cities. I did that, and then added a page for the Midlands for good measure. If someone can think of a better way to do this, go to it. --(WT-en) Evan 07:55, 2 Dec 2003 (PST)

Article name - Is Birmingham (Midlands) a famous place?
Moved from Project:Votes for deletion.
 * Birmingham (Midlands). Clumsy title, not suitable for redirect. Content moved to Birmingham. -- (WT-en) Professorbiscuit 21:42, 2 Dec 2004 (EST)
 * Unsure. Can you explain why it's a "clumsy title"? It's in line with the naming conventions isn't it, unless this is either the world's only Birmingham or by far the world's most famous Birmingham? Is either of those the case? -- (WT-en) Hypatia 02:36, 3 Dec 2004 (EST)
 * Well, it's certainly the most famous Birmingham in England. If people think it's not significantly more famous than Birmingham, Alabama, to have the Birmingham page by itself, then it should be moved to "Birmingham (England)". "Birmingham (Midlands)" doesn't really sound right. (WT-en) Professorbiscuit 22:56, 3 Dec 2004 (EST)
 * Yes, the policy of choosing the name of the item immediately up in the hierachy is more honoured in the breach than the observance and, often, rightly so, since the lower level regions often have ambiguous names themselves. -- (WT-en) Hypatia 23:09, 3 Dec 2004 (EST)
 * Birmingham (Alabama) is more famous in the United States (mostly for historical reasons having to do with the civil rights movement), so I don't think the "world's most famous" rule applies to the one in England. I think Birmingham should be a disambig page. So Birmingham (Midlands) or Birmingham (England) seem better to me. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:59, 4 Mar 2005 (EST)
 * There seem to be 2 almost identical pages at the moment: Birmingham (Midlands) and Birmingham. One needs to be a disambig or redirect before we have two forked pages. (WT-en) DanielC 16:02, 12 May 2005 (EDT)
 * Too late, we have a forked article and it needs to be merged. Considering Birmingham was originally a disambiguation page and discussion about deleting Birmingham (Midlands) has gon on here rather than at Talk:Birmingham (Midlands), where there is NO hint of this controversy (fiasco), and no-one has taken steps to stop the articles being forked, I assume the VFD is lost and the name change does not take place. Consequently I propose to plunge forward and move all content on Birmingham to Birmingham (Midlands) and the restore the disambiguation page to Birmingham. To discuss that move further please go to the Talk:Birmingham (Midlands) page, where this conversation should be continued. -- (WT-en) Huttite 04:37, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)
 * Conversation now continues Talk:Birmingham (Midlands).

OK, as per discussion above - Birmingham (Midlands) just sounds incredibly clumsy to English ears - I'm gonna plunge forward and move the page to Birmingham (England) - sounds a little better. If we must disambiguate fully (surely Birmingham in England is the most famous Birmingham? - it is the 2nd largest city in England, after all!), then this seems to be the better option.... I'm actually in the middle of splitting the Midlands into East and West Midlands in any case.... (reflect actual regions). So _Midlands_ by itslef would have been inconsistent.... (WT-en) Pjamescowie 13:39, 19 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * It's not a question of being the most famous; it's a question of being by far the most famous. Examples being, say, Los Angeles in California vs. Los Angeles (Chile) or Moscow in Russia vs. Moscow (Idaho).
 * Well Birmingham (England) was there for a thousand years beforehand, the others are just a tribute to the first. If you don't want Birmingham (Alabama) then get an original name. :)

 * Anyways, Birmingham (England) seems fine; although it's not strictly within the ANC, I think it's fine. --(WT-en) Evan 12:13, 30 Jul 2005 (EDT)

FYI, see the discussion at Talk:St. Petersburg. --145.99.202.92 04:57, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

Stay Safe
"Also take care at either end of Broad Street where the traffic-flow speeds up and radical Muslim youths in cars throw missiles at drunken revellers. Immodestly dressed women can also expect to receive sexist verbal abuse."

Is this true? I can't possibly imagine such a thing happening on a frequent basis. Of course, I'm American so I've no idea, but I've never seen anything like this in my travels to the UK. 69.86.199.51 22:18, 12 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Unfortunately it's true and happens all too frequently. The favoured missiles seem to be eggs, occaisionally higher powered water pistols containing dubious liquids are used.  At least they're not bombing buses. (WT-en) Chris 1965 07:10, 23 August 2006 (EDT)

 * I've never heard of this, Is there a citation to support it? (WT-en) Andy Mabbett 16:05, 26 November 2006 (EST)

 * Citing sources isn't really done on Wikivoyage... well not in the way that it is on Wikipedia. Anyway, just because it hasn't been reported somewhere officially is a bad reason for removing what may be a valid and useful piece of info. The problem is if it is just intended to stir up racial tension. I am going to go ahead and remove the words "radical muslim youths" because that isn't a helpful bit of info, but the fact that it could happen is useful, and for that reason it should definitely stay there. Remember, one of the main points of Wikivoyage is that the traveller comes first... -- (WT-en) Tim 16:22, 26 November 2006 (EST)

 * Thank you, but I wasn't querying whether it was done by muslims; I was querying whether it is done at all. "could happen" != "does happen". (WT-en) Andy Mabbett 16:33, 26 November 2006 (EST)

 * I've been on broad street many times, and I've been no witness to this. This is silly.

Taxis
There seems to be confusion between taxis ("black cabs", which can be hailed in the street, or used at taxi ranks) and private hire cars (which must be pre-booked). This distinction is national. Is there a standard way to differentiate? (WT-en) Andy Mabbett 16:04, 26 November 2006 (EST)

West Midlands Taxi use

Name of this page (again)
This page really ought to be located at Birmingham. It is far more famous in the UK and outside of the USA than any other Birmingham. It's also the original Birmingham and most others are named after it. It is the second largest city in the United Kingdom and one of Europe's biggest cities. Birmingham Alabama should be located at Birmingham Alabama. This is very like the situation on Wikipedia when American Wikipedians insisted on titling the country 'Georgia' as 'George (Country)' because they felt that an American state was more deserving. Please remember that the Internet is an international network and not just used by Americans. (WT-en) Xania 13:23, 11 December 2006 (EST)

 * So, first, People on Wikivoyage en: come from all over the world -- Australia, England, Canada. We're all working on these guides together to help all English-speaking travellers -- from Americans to New Zealanders to Nigerians to Indians to Singaporese. We need to keep an international perspective, and dividing the community against itself based on arbitrary criteria (men vs. women, American vs. Commonwealth, young vs. old) is no way to reach our goals.

 * Second, please take a look at Project:article naming conventions. We have some pretty formalized naming rules, especially for places that have the same name. In particular, we almost always use disambiguators, except in the case where one place is "much more famous" than another. I think we've bopped around some ideas of how much more famous a place has to be in order to not be disambiguated; my rough number was 5-10 times "more famous". Now, measuring how famous something is is hard to do... but it's at least a number, even if it has no metric.

 * My feeling is that Birmingham meets the criteria, and we should probably move it. I think the next most famous Birmingham, the one in Alabama, is probably the default one people think of in the USA, but not by much, and outside the US I don't think it's even close. I also think that since Americans often use the naming convention "City, State", finding the AL city at Birmingham (Alabama) is not going to be too surprising for people.

 * So, unless there's major objections, let's move this article. --(WT-en) Evan 13:52, 11 December 2006 (EST)

 * I agree with Evan. There is also precedent, at Wikipedia. (WT-en) Andy Mabbett 15:23, 11 December 2006 (EST)

 * I would go with this. I think the tone of my previous message was a bit too anti-American but the point remains.  Birmingham, UK is the main Birmingham and much more famous worldwide.  The same applies for other cities like Manchester (I believe there are many Manchesters in the USA).  I think the best thing would be to have a simple link to the 'Birmingham Alabama' article from the top of the 'Birmingham' (UK) page. (WT-en) Xania 06:32, 12 December 2006 (EST)

Closed
I'm removing the following listings as closed, if they open again we can stick the listings back in, but for now there's no point in cluttering the page with places you can't eat at! (WT-en) Maj 14:14, 10 January 2007 (EST)

 * Restored Jacobean mansion built between 1618 and 1635, containing period rooms and artwork. Cannon damage from the English Civil War still visible. The Hall was visited by Arthur Conan Doyle and Washington Irving, inspiring the latter's 'Bracebridge Hall'. Aston Hall by Candlelight is a popular Christmas event that takes place every two years (even numbers) where the whole grounds are lit by candles for 17th-century festivities (fee charged).

 * I've restored it - the exterior can still be viewed. It's a stately home, not a cafe! (WT-en) Andy Mabbett 16:33, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Concrete jungle?
Why does this article repeat the old canard that Birmingham was a concrete jungle in the 1970s, but isn't any more? It has been repeated in so many places that it "must" be true. In fact, I rather liked Birmingham in the 70s - it had a good atmosphere. It's also good now of course, arguably better, but in a different way. (WT-en) Ashbranch 05:07, 28 February 2007 (EST)

My edit to the "Get around / By train" section
As I'm an anon user, I thought it best to explain here why I changed "exclusively" to "mainly" near the start of this subsection. Previously the sentence said that:

"There is an extensive overland rail network serving most of Birmingham and the West Midlands area, operated exclusively by Central Trains."

This was, to put it charitably, completely wrong. Mainly by Central Trains, all right. But to name some of the exceptions: you can go from Birmingham to Coventry with Virgin Trains, from Birmingham to Solihull with Chiltern Railways, and from Birmingham to Wolverhampton with Arriva Trains Wales. Hence my edit. 86.136.255.1 20:27, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Holborne
I added some stuff there, but it was based on memories from the 80s. Someone who knows the city now, please check it. (WT-en) Pashley 04:53, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Various districts
Hi,

There are a number of districts within Birmingham (Bearwood, Selly Oak, Sparkbrook) that have got their own page on Wikivoyage, with their own things to do, but there is no 'see also' page that gives the reader an explicit link to these districts, or allows one to be able to expand on some of the stuff there eg the 'Selly Oak' article is desperately out of date. Birmingham's a big city, but one with lots of small areas that make it up, so it's only fair that these small areas - rather than the town centre alone - are recognised. How do people feel about this?

 * I agree with this. Birmingham from my experience is huge and the page feels cluttered with information which would benefit from being spread out. Also Manchester has districts despite being lass than half the size of Birmingham. Inferno986return (talk) 11:48, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Are we making it a great guide or what?
OK so I admit I am having a rather miserable week due to a multitude of reasons, bed-ridding flu including, and I have found this article as a great opportunity to use the remainder of my functioning consciousness to do something seemingly productive (and a tad personally beneficial, as it appears on my travel plans). Despite the fact that we are still a scant community spread over rarely overlapping fields of interest, I hoped that this being an English town and an article with history will actually energize people who notice my editing to join in and help make this article up-to-date, complete and actually really attractive.

And what happened? A number of formatting efforts, some of which pretty arbitrary IMHO. I start believing that the many iterations of Frank may indeed be different persons if we are so prone to focus on petty formatting issues rather than put more effort into article content and making our articles wholesome, complete, universally attractive and actually useful.

Given that I've just started a mini-edit-war, I am now hoping we can turn all the negative energy and friction created by divergent views as to where to put the climate table and such into a joint effort and discussion on how to further improve this article. I could really use this boost of communal spirit personally, and so could Wikivoyage. Anybody? No? Dust? PrinceGloria (talk) 18:32, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes, I've noticed you've been working extensively on Birmingham for the last couple of days, just as you've earlier on done a brilliant work on Paris and a load of other European cities. Maybe we should restart the cotm project and nominate Birmingham to get the attention of other editors?
 * Personally I'm a bit busy with a couple of other projects, namely cleanup of articles in the Baltic States and Caribbean — areas that include some really messed up articles. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Hi there. Yes you've been doing great work on this article, but I have restored the climate box you removed. It is sanctioned by the Climate Expedition and placed squarely in the Understand section by Where you can stick it, just as it has been done in loads of other articles. In most cases it is even accompanied there by a Climate subsection in prose. If you think climate boxes make articles "awful and unattractive" you might ought to start a conversation on one of those talk pages and try for a consensus to change the way it's done, but for now let's leave it in the standard place, per status quo — the individual article is not the place to fight over the broader policy. You also might consider that a longer lede section and/or more robust Understand section would push the climate box down the page a little so it seems less prominent and perhaps less offensive to you. I personally don't find that it "makes the article awful and unattractive" at all, but rather more informative and useful. Texugo (talk) 19:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I was trying to preempt a discussion about the climate box and direct our efforts towards making this a better article, alas to no avail.
 * Back on topic - I find the Birmingham banner the best possible one, because there is no horizontal view of Birmingham that would fit into the banner proportions and look attractive, so the facade fragment works better. That said, it says nothing about the city and does not make one want to visit it, so as many attractive pics of the city (in the more square formats available) are needed as far up as possible. Removing one and starting with a pretty abstract banner and then a sombre table for a city that arguably needs every effort possible to appear attractive to a tourist does not seem helpful.
 * I firmly believe there is nothing lost in moving the climate table elsewhere. We may also start a climate section for it, but why in the world wouldn't you write one instead of simply moving the table and sitting arms akimbo pointing at my wrongdoing. It is easy to do so, as basically all you do is write what is in the table in prose. In case you need a more local view, weather is a popular topic in the UK and it is easy to find more inspiration in the interwebz regarding the unique characteristics of Birmingham weather.
 * Why didn't I do it and wrote this lengthy paragraph? Because I don't care for the climate table, I might as well see it removed, there are better sources of weather data more relevant for the traveller than Wikivoyage and weather in the UK is not divergent enough for climate data one or two breadcrumb levels up to be irrelevant. I have other interests and I hoped for you, if you care for that, to do just as you suggested (i.e. write the paragraph, expand lead etc.)
 * I, for one, am anal about listings and their sections. So I gladly took it upon myself to find out more data, coords etc. for most of the listings we have and fill them in, plus find extra ones, alphabetize some and move towards my ideal for that section of the article. I hope I am not going against somebody else's vision for the article - and I hope somebody besides me has a vision for the article that reaches beyond deciding where the climate table should go in. Let us all focus on what we care about and actually go the effort, rather than resize images, move tables and say "that's the policy". Let's contribute. Please. PrinceGloria (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I am not here to "decide where the climate table goes"; that has already been decided. If you take issue with where the climate table goes, it is your responsibility to go to the respective policy page and raise a consensus for something else, not to try to make others feel prudish for putting things in their agreed-upon established place. Incidentally, I do not share your visual revulsion to the table or your apparent fear that its presence will make people think Birmingham must be a horrid destination. As someone unfamiliar with the place, I would rather like to see weather info, and would expect to find it in the usual place. Texugo (talk) 20:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I might have missed the point where we decided that what Expeditions decide on becomes policy. I am a member of the Banner Expedition and I believe we might have agreed on stuff, but it needed to go through a general discussion at the Pub to gain community consensus status.
 * More importantly, however, I failed to notice the notion that an article has to have a climate table and that it has to go in the Understand section. "Where you can stick it" suggests Understand can have a climate subsection, but we don't have any and you don't feel like creating it. I couldn't find an appropriate reference in the Climate Expedition as well. Could it be that you are reading more into what is written there than it actually is? PrinceGloria (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Where you can stick it exists because we want the traveller to be able to intuitively know which section to look in for what type of info. Weather info always goes in understand, period. It doesn't even fit thematically with where you had it in Stay safe, and no one familiar with how our other articles are set up would think to look there for it. Texugo (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Remove "Learn" and list of eateries in Selly Oak?
I believe we did agree sometime ago that the "Learn" section was unnecessary in our articles and it actually makes little sense for travellers to provide information on local universities, schools etc. I cannot find that discussion or its conclusion though. I am tempted, however, to remove the "Learn" section from this article on the grounds of that consensus.

I also believe we could do without what I find to be an outdated list of all eateries in the Selly Oak student/academic suburban district of Birmingham, which may encompass somebody's breadth of knowledge and experience from time spent there, but is of little use to most tourists.

Your takes? PrinceGloria (talk) 17:29, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Only the language school should be listed in the Learn section, assuming it has short courses a traveller might take without actually moving there. The attraction aspects of the University of Birmingham should be covered in See. The rest of the stuff in Learn should simply be removed. For the eat listings, if you're local, perhaps you know best. Texugo (talk) 17:46, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I am not a local, and I guess nobody knows best. I just find Selly Oak of little interest to most tourists, but may be wrong, this is why I ask. Would you be so kind and help move the listings and info from the learn section to the others? If we are left with the language school only and decide to keep it, why not move it to "Cope"?
 * BTW, what is our policy on the "Work" sections? PrinceGloria (talk) 18:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Well, I won't mind doing it when I have a little time, sure, but learning opportunities always belong in the Learn section, not somewhere else (again, see WV:Where you can stick it). You also might find some guidance at WV:Article templates/Sections. The work section should similarly focus on work opportunities that a traveller might find on a temporary basis, i.e. without actually taking up permanent/semi-permanent residence there. Like Learn, it is an optional section to be omitted when there is nothing of particular value to say. In this case, if it is not common for travellers to do that here and the employment services are not a specific recommendation for travellers, we could probably stand to lose them. Texugo (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Stuff removed

 * Aston University, Aston, +44 121 204 3000, . Formerly the Birmingham College of Advanced Technology, became a university in 1966. Offers undergraduate and postgraduate courses in many subjects, but specialises in business and engineering. Aston Business School is widely regarded as an extremely prestigious MBA business school.
 * Birmingham City University (Formerly: University of Central England (UCE)), main campus at Perry Barr (train to Perry Barr or #28A bus), +44 121 331 5000, . Formed from several colleges in the 1970s and adopted the University title in 1992. Offers undergraduate and postgraduate courses, specialising mainly in arts (BIAD at Gosta Green, Aston) and vocational subjects.

 * Birmingham Conservatoire part of Birmingham City University. This high class institution specialises in refined music performance based degrees ranging from undergraduate to Advanced Postgraduate Diplomas and PhDs, and recently scored 3rd in student course satisfaction surveys across the UK's 9 music colleges as of September 2009. An ever growing number of well known names are stemming from the Conservatoire, such names have included Di Xiao, Christopher Orton and Rhydian Roberts.

Alternative banner for this article?
In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 02:27, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The current one is better. It's striking and original, versus just another skyline pic that could be from almost anywhere. Texugo (talk) 02:29, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed, plus the new banner is super-hazy. I don't think this is a close contest. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:08, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Birmingham is actually a hard sell as a tourist destination (at least it is in England) so adding a boring city shot is not the way to promote it. The existing banner is certainly more interesting and compelling. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:39, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I am not all that proud of all of my banners, but in general I spent a fair amount of time doing banners and I guess my latter creations improved as I learned more about composition, quality issues etc. and started spending more time researching pics. So my heart sank when I saw some of the banners I am most proud of and took the most time for me to make constested in bulk. I am so happy that at least this one is still favoured over a generic skyline shot, something I so hardly tried to avoid. PrinceGloria (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I agree with the above - the original is definitely more striking and recognisably 'Brum'. --Nick talk 19:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I prefer the old one. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:43, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Bull Ring
"Bulring" is the proprietary name for a modern shopping mall that occupies part of the historic area known as "The Bull Ring". Please do not conflate the two. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 * Very easy mistake to make, as can be seen.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Birmingham


text:
Talk:Birthplace of Silicon Valley

The content here is copied from, but I presume User:Sr82 owns the copyright? However, I think that this should be merged Silicon Valley itself. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:00, 5 March 2006 (EST)

Good suggestion. I just moved the content to Silicon Valley. (WT-en) Sr82 03:19, 5 March 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:Birthplace of Silicon Valley


text:
Talk:Bishkek

I removed a gratuitous comment to Slavonic University as better than American University. First, it's obviously a undocumented opinion; second, if you read the newspaper stories on corruption in central asian schools, American University is widely regarded as the most legitimate degree you can get in the region.

Totally agree about the Slavonic University, I've spoken to locals who say they can afford the tuition there, but not the bribes. The part about trusting the police is dead on, they will try to take money from you if they sense one ounce of vulnerability.

The part about STDs I don't know if I agree with, prostitution is widespread, but not like I've seen in other cities and AIDS is almost non-exsistant here, something like less than 1,000 people and mostly in the south. Either way definitely wrap up with locals.

I disagree that travel to Bishkek should be avoided at this time. It would be more appropriate to exercise caution, but there is no threat to foreigners.

Get out section not working
Hi there Can please anybody format the Going Out selection. It doesnt work for me.... Thanks. —The preceding comment was added by 77.235.23.133 (talk • contribs) 6 August 2011

 * Fixed. (There was a missing "<" at the Uzbekistan embassy listing template which caused the problem.) – (WT-en) Vidimian 05:22, 6 August 2011 (EDT)

Eat
Someone deleted info about TV-Sports in the Alabama Steak House. Their website's main page approves its existing.

Remove warning
I think it is probably about time to remove the warning that says:

WARNING: Bishkek is currently experiencing political instability. Therefore, travellers should be aware of events and be prepared to alter their travel plans, if necessary. No foreigners have been targeted or victimized as part of the recent coup and demonstrations. It is recommended to avoid being near demonstrations.

There has been a peaceful transition of power from the transitional government and there are no demonstrations and no instability. Besides, the revolution happened two years ago. This warning is simply inaccurate and out of date. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 212.241.20.66 (talk • contribs)

 * Agreed, and gone! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:09, 5 July 2012 (EDT)

Photo of Ala-Too Square is out of date
The photo of Ala-Too Square is out of date as of Spring of 2012. The Freedom Statute shown has been replaced with one of the legendary Kyrgyz hero Manas, from the epic of the same name.

National Historical Museum
Google says:

Permanently closed State History Museum is permanently closed. If that's wrong, you can suggest an edit.

Not sure what to make of that. Lazarus1255 (talk) 02:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Bishkek square.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Ala Too Bishkek.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:07, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * State History Museum in Bishkek 2.jpg

 * No FoP in Kyrgyzstan. Do we want this? (it's a nice image, IMO) SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 08:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

 * We're using File:Ala Too Square Bishkek 2021.jpg, instead. I think that's more useful and should be uploaded locally. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bishkek


text:
Talk:Bishnupur

Are there two Bishnupurs?
There seems to be one in Manipur too and it seems to contain some interesting places to visit too - like  a national park. If so, we need to make a disambiguate it and make a disambiguation page for it. -- (WT-en) Ravikiran 02:08, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Dear Ravikiran,

I do not know about any Bishnupur in Manipur. But your link clearly shows that... there is one. So you can make a disambiguation page for it.

In West Bengal there is a town named Bishnupur which is famous for it's Silk, Terracota handicrafts and Historical monuments. I have added that Bishnupur in West Bengal, which you have already noticed and modified. Soon I shall add more contents to Bishnupur of West Bengal.

I know about another Bishnupur in Andamans, but that place is not worth mentioning. Actually, there can be more Bishnupurs in India or abroad, because the vaishanbs (follwers of the Vaishnava sect) like to name their locality as 'Bishnupur'. Both Manipur and West Bengal have large population of vaishnavs. During partition in 1947 some of the vaishnavs of Bangladesh (then East Bengal or West Pakisthan) were forced to migrate to Andamans and they setteled there - named their locality 'Bishnupur', as usual.

Regards,

(WT-en) Kaushik 06:17, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

 * That's interesting. I've Plunged forward and put in a disambiguation page --(WT-en) Ravikiran 03:41, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Bishnupur


text:
Talk:Bishnupur (Manipur)

Do we really need a disambiguator here? Also, is this a region or a city (I can't tell)? --(WT-en) Evan 19:07, 1 Jan 2006 (EST)
 * Yes. Both are "districts", so it will be a region template. --(WT-en) Ravikiran 00:29, 2 Jan 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:Bishnupur (Manipur)


text:
Talk:Bitburg

Moved from Travellers' pub

Hello
I am new here, and have a purpose ;) I would like to learn about Bitburg Germany, as I am moving there. While I have created the article (w very little info, of course) I would tremendously appreciate any additions by anyone who has actually been there (as I have not). (WT-en) Thomas Jefferson 12:34, 12 May 2004 (EDT)

title: Talk:Bitburg