text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Atlantis Reef

Wikivoyage criteria:

 * Covers the topic fully.
 * Layout and listings either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule. Complies
 * Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. Close, but could use a bit of tweaking
 * At least one good-quality photo or illustration accompanies the article. Complies
 * If practical it has a map identifying relevant destinations. Complies

Diver criteria:

 * A diver competent to dive the site but without any local knowledge should be able to plan a safe and enjoyable dive using the information provided (in conjunction with a regional diving guide if applicable.) Complies
 * Conditions during the dive should come as no surprise. Complies

Checklist:
Leader paragraph
 * The site is named Complies
 * Type of site specified Complies
 * Geographical location given in general terms Complies
 * Nearest major landmark, near Complies
 * Nearest City in Complies
 * Region in Complies
 * Country. Complies

Understand
 * A map showing the position and layout of the site in some detail, preferably to scale. Complies
 * Reason/s why one would choose to dive the site. Complies

Position
 * GPS position for the site. Should put a diver at least somewhere on the site, specify where if possible Complies
 * Alternative range and bearing or cross bearings to well defined and reasonably close landmarks. Photos of landmarks desirable. Not applicable
 * distance from launch site or harbour for boat access (km or N.miles). Distance should be along the usual route, not as the crow flies. Complies

Name
 * Optional image of whatever the site is named after. (particularly desirable for wreck sites, where a photo or painting of the vessel or a similar vessel is preferred.) Not applicable
 * Explanation of origin of the site name, translation if applicable. Complies

Depth
 * Maximum depth to be expected on the site Complies
 * If applicable, shallowest point of the site Complies
 * Average depth of a dive can be added if it will be useful. Complies

Visibility
 * Range of visibility to be expected when conditions are generally considered suitable for diving. Complies

Topography
 * Description of the layout of the site Complies
 * General idea of slope, profile and rugosity Complies
 * Description of major features and landmarks Complies
 * Condition of wreckage if applicable Not applicable

Geology
 * Only for rocky reefs Complies
 * Type of rock, (geological age, name of formation optional) Complies
 * Strike and dip optional if applicable Not applicable

Conditions
 * What weather conditions will result in good diving conditions. Complies
 * Any specific weather conditions which will result in unpleasant or hazardous diving conditions. Complies
 * Any special oceanographic or weather conditions the site is known for. (sudden offshore winds, upwellings, currents, plankton blooms, thermoclines etc) if applicable Complies
 * Information sufficient to allow a reasonably competent diver with a moderate understanding of the local weather and climate to forecast conditions during a planned dive over a short period (3 to 4 hours) when on site. Complies

Facilities
 * Generally only for shore access dives Not applicable
 * Facilities must be in close walking range of parking area or entry points Not applicable
 * Facilities appropriate to divers and accompanying family only.(parking, ablution, fast food, dive services, picnic areas, security, beach, shade, etc) Not applicable

Get in

Shore entry Boat entry
 * Adequate directions to reach the site Not applicable
 * A map or aerial photo indicating the position of entry/exit areas (only for shore entry ) if the main site map is not sufficient. Not applicable
 * Sufficient text for a person who has no local knowledge at all to find the site and identify any access areas with confidence.
 * Photos of the standard entry and exit points if applicable. Not applicable
 * Location of slipway/harbour/launch site/pickup area. Complies
 * Distance of boat ride and/or duration of boat ride. Complies

See

Marine life and/or Features
 * Photos of at least three organisms or features one may reasonably expect to see at the site Complies
 * Photos of organisms that are special in some way may be included even if not frequently seen, but it should not be suggested that a visitor is likely to see them Complies
 * Description of what a diver may see during a dive Complies
 * if the photos were not taken at the site this should be mentioned. Not applicable

Photography
 * advice on photographic equipment (macro/wide angle, need for external lighting) if appropriate. Complies
 * photographic opportunities that may be expected or hoped for if applicable. Complies

Suggested Routes
 * generally at least one suggested or recommended route, with an indication of what the diver may expect to see. This may be a drift dive if applicable. "Follow the divemaster" is not really a route and will only be accepted if there are really good reasons, which are adequately explained.
 * Some indication should be given of how long a dive on the route will take, and if it is a long route, an approximate distance. This is not essential if it is shown to scale on a map.

Stay safe

Hazards
 * Site specific hazards of any kind, including access hazards if applicable. "No site specific hazards known" is null default, and implies that the local hazards are adequately described in the regional article. Complies
 * Comprehensive listing of site related hazards (not regional hazards already in regional guide, ordinary diving hazards nor obvious sea/weather condition hazards). Advice on mitigation is optional. Complies
 * security problems and land based hazards may also be mentioned if applicable. (theft/mugging risk, animals stealing food etc) Not applicable

Skills
 * Skills, competence or certification level required for diving at the site, if any. Complies
 * Skills recommended for diving at the site, if any. Complies
 * "No special skills required/recommended" is null default, this implies that a person trained to dive in the region will be able to handle the normal conditions for diving at the site. Complies

Equipment
 * any equipment beyond the standard equipment listed for the region in the regional guide, either reqired or recommended for the site for safety of convenience. Reason should be specified if not obvious. Complies
 * "No special equipment required/recommended" is null default, and implies that divers trained to dive in the region, or who have some experience diving in the region will know what is needed. Complies

Comments
Nearly there. The map could use another 21m contour to the west, otherwise it is almost compete. A couple more scenic photos would be nice, but not essential. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:13, 1 May 2012 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Fan Reef

Fan reef is small, and there is not much more to say about it. It is close to star status by the applicable criteria.

Accurate values for depth on the surrounding sand at a few points may be useful, and perhaps a couple of spot heights on the reef.

Further work which could be done would include mapping the nearby North Fan Reef. This could be a separate site, or could be combined with Fan Reef, depending on how big it turns out to be. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:58, 29 October 2009 (EDT)


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Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Highfields

E-mails from Grant Whitford with information and sonar scan image for the Highfields
Hi Peter

I was having a look at the wikivoyage Table Bay wrecks and found it very sparse. I can give you info on the SS Highfields and I’m sure if you approach Alistair he will let you have some info on wrecks like the Winton ect.

The Highfields 1902

A British four-masted steel barque of 2 280 tons, built in 1892 by Richardson Duck & Co, Stockton, and commanded by Capt E.R. Dunham. Lost on 14 August 1902 after a voyage from Cardiff to Table Bay with a cargo of coal. She hit the SS Kaiser and sank quickly with the loss of nineteen lives. She lies in 24m and is fairly intact but she is up-side down so it is mostly hull plating that is visible, Around the sides there are a few places where one can see into/under the hull and her huge anchors lie just off the bow. Diving her is especially tricky as she lies only a few meters north of the entrance channel to the harbour. She is just east of the No1 channel entrance buoy. One needs to inform Cape Town port control of the dive and then devise an ascent system that prevents divers drifting south into the channel on ascent and while on the surface. A shot line placed on the bow (furthest point away from the channel) with its buoy attached to a second line to an anchor placed about 100m further north has proved workable. Another way is for divers to tie a sacrificial ascent line to the wreck which they hold onto during ascent and on the surface. They then let go of the line once the dive boat gets to them.

Bow 33° 53’ 07.9” S 18° 25’ 49.8” E

Stern 33° 53’ 08.5” S 18° 25’ 48.0” E

Regards,

Grant

Above text inserted by • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 23:46, 8 March 2011 (EST)

Hi Peter

Some more info has come to light:

She was a steel four-masted barque of 2 220 tons, 231 feet length with a beam of 44 feet. She had a crew of 27, 23 of whom drowned. She was bound from Cardiff to Cape Town with a cargo of coal.

The steamship Kaiser was at anchor when the Highfields came out of the dark (just after midnight) and hit her anchor chain. The Highfields briefly lay across her bows before being blown off. The Kaiser was not damaged at all. The Highfields sank within 2 to 5 minutes of the collision. Survivors reported that she had been in stormy seas for a few days and had lost most of canvass and her decks were awash. It seems her crew and captain were desperate to find shelter.

Regards,

Grant

Added • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:44, 10 March 2011 (EST)

References:
Sea Breezes Vol. 66 (1992), pp 556-564. Sea Breezes Vol. 11 (1951), pp 456.
 * Turner, Colin W.R.: Life and Tragic Death of a Liverpool Barque.
 * Middleton, A.W.: In The Highfields.
 * http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Fourmast_ships/The_Highfields(1892).html

Possible correction - please check

 * tends to weather in rectangular blocky forms - I changed it to "tends to weather into rectangular blocklike forms"
 * blocky is not a word but blocklike is... I also think blocklike has rectangular shape implied
 * Posted this so that you can change if I am not making sense.. Have a good day! -- Matroc (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


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Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Miller's Point slipway

Justification for sub-article
This sub article has been created to fulfil a need which to the best of my knowledge can not be conveniently addressed by more conventional means.

A considerable number of dive sites may be served by a single launch site or harbour. The diving traveller may need information about the launch site, but to put this into each dive site sub-article would be a maintenance nightmare, so I have plunged forward and created this as a workable alternative. If anyone has a better alternative, please let me know.

This class of sub-article will be under a main article for regional or national dive sites, in the same way that the dive site sub-articles are produced. It will be classed as a travel topic in the same way as a dive site, and the layout and template will be similar to that for a dive site, but with any useful heading from other classes of article that may apply added in an appropriate place. I will make up a template when I am reasonably sure what should go in. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:22, 7 September 2010 (EDT)


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Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/MV Aster

Star Nomination Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/MV Aster
Under extreme peer pressure, I rise to the challenge and submit another nomination of a Cape Peninsula dive site.

This one is a small and relatively straightforward wreck dive site, but it is very popular and deservedly so. The challenge here was to adequately describe both interior and exterior of the wreck, and I think I have now done this with the map and general arrangement drawings.

I would appreciate comments on how clear the descriptions are to the lay person and occasional diver, and of course the benefit of fresh eyes to spot the errors I have passed over. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 13:24, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

 * 2 weeks and no comments! Maybe no-one else watches this page. Or everyone is out travelling? Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:44, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

 * Support. The descriptions look good to me, and as a novice diver the information I would want all seems to be present.  The only issues I saw (and these are too minor to prevent support): 1) the gallery pushes into the right ad bar - I think three images per row is more standard as that will use less than 800 pixels of width. 2) I wasn't sure if "imbedded" is British spelling or not, but if not then it should be changed to "embedded".  -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:23, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

 * Done, eventually. Never in the history of Wikivoyage has it taken longer or more effort to make such small changes. I have been prevented from editing for nearly two weeks by persistent gateway timeouts when trying to edit or upload. The problem continues and I am using dialup on a laptop to edit this. It is expensive and slow, but it works. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Support. I have done some nitpicky corrections, but as an admittedly regular diver I can't find anything missing that I can think of that should be added to the article. So, for my two cents... it should be a Star. (WT-en) Seascapeza 09:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Thank you for that fine simian grooming performance, It is delightful to be nit-free again, if only for a limited period ;-) Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Support. As ever, a very fine job done by Peter.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:52, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Support I'm not sure I can have a say in this (being here less than a month), and I'm not a diver, but for what it's worth: this article appears complete to me and looks good. (WT-en) Justme 11:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

 * Thanks to all for your time. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

I am now able to edit again! I hope it lasts, as no-one was able to explain what the problem was. Anyway, I will star the article and do all the related admin. Thanks again to those who helped with the process. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 06:01, 29 August 2011 (EDT)


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Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Partridge Point

I have started mapping this site (June 2010), so there will be frequent updates on the map and hopefully new data and photos. Svg map file will be uploaded when development slows down, or when someone asks for it. Anyone wishing to assist please go ahead. The site is large and complex, with a lot of high profile reef, much of which is hardly ever dived so the mapping may take some time. I am starting out by swimming the perimeter of the reef edge where it meets the sand. After that I plan to mark positions of major pinnacles, gulleys, swimthroughs and overhangs, and get a bunch of spot depths. Anyone who has positions of any major features please feel free to either edit them in directly or leave the details here or on my talk page. At a later stage I hope to get sidescan sonar images where the fish can access the area safely, and multibeam bathymetry, as I have contacts who are surveying the area for conservation research, but they can only go where it is safe for the boat. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:06, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

 * Nice to see you back mate --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:08, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

 * Nice to be mapping sites again. Nice to be noticed too. Cheers guys! Hope you are all well -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:23, 13 June 2010 (EDT)

Report by local diver on newly explored section of site:
Pleased edit/cut/paste/hack it as you see fit ....

Grant dropped us at the most recently discovered submerged pinnacle on the Smits side of the Partridge Point reef complex which is just 50 meters or so off the small rock which does break the surface (not sure if it breaks all the time or just on low tides)

We started by just scootering laps around the closest pinnacles and bits of reef just to get an idea of our immediate surroundings. We proceeded south until we reached what seemed like the end of the reef and then we would turn back towards where we came from.

After exploring the swimthroughs, beautiful gulleys and shining our torches into caves & cracks to find big romans, crayfish and other fish hanging around, we headed east along the edge of the reef keeping the reef on our left and the sand on our right.

Every time the opportunity to scooter under an overhang, down a gulley or through a swim through we would do so but we tried to return to the edge of the reef so that we could have a reference of where we were on the reef while exploring as much of the edge as possible.

The reef has quite spectacular structures which results in overhangs and swimthroughs and gulleys filled with life and colour. When one looks up on a day with good viz the reef is silhouetted, the sun filters through the kelp fronds on top of the reef and the schools of fish in midwater makes for stunning underwater scenes.

At one point a large seal joined us on the dive, and on another occasion we were following a pufadder shy shark which was trying to swallow a small octopus. The puffadder shy shark was, in turn, followed by a few other fish hoping to get leftovers and scraps.

There is a stunning almost perfectly vertical wall from about 19 meters on the sand to where the reef breaks the surface on the big rock on the eastern side of the reef. The whole wall is covered in life and really really impressive in good viz.

Since we were already 30 minutes into the dive and we didn't know how long our batteries would last we headed north and then west which effectively brought us around the big rock and heading back to the area where were were dropped off. We didn't quite make it back to where we were dropped off because Pierre was low on air and we had already dived for 45 minutes.

We scootered around the "inside" of the reef near the big rock a bit where we also saw lots of structure, but it was on average shallower and the structure less dramatic than on the outer edge of the reef.

All & all a stunning piece of reef!

I would gladly return to this reef with a twinset full of 50 or 40% nitrox and just carry on scootering till my batteries go flat ... :-)

rgds

monty

E-mailed report added by (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 10:42, 5 July 2010 (EDT)

Alea jacta est
I have been working on this site now for a few months, and though it is by no means exhausted, I think it is ready for scrutiny for upgrading to Star. I need the feedback for the final push, so have nominated for Star. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 12:35, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Partridge Point
This site has been improved a lot over the last few months. The map is not quite ready, but needs comment. The svg has not yet been uploaded, but that is just a matter of doing it when the map is right. Other than that, I think the article meets most, if not all the criteria, and by nominating it I hope to get suggestions on what more is needed. I look forward to the creative criticism that helped get Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle to star.

Partridge Point is a large dive site compared with Pinnacle, and it is much better known among the local divers, and has been quite popular for years. However, the development of the Wikivoyage article seems to have pushed up the number of dive charters advertised for the site this season, and the mapping of the site has opened up new parts of it. Local divers are getting the message and starting to use the guide. I just wish a few of them would start contributing, but with luck this will happen eventually.

Besides that, it has been great fun to map, and see the layout unfold itself gradually as I get the data from the GPS tracks onto Inkscape. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 13:25, 16 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Uncertain I already had a close look and in general i like this article. I'm not a diver so i can't comment on the quality of the routing and your hints. The only thing i'm really missing is a map on how to get to this route (some sort of get in section) on the landside. If others say the diving part is good, i would support the article. (WT-en) jan 15:43, 3 September 2010 (EDT)
 * Although the dive site is close to the shore, it is a boat access dive for several reasons, the most important being that you have to cross private land to get to the shore near enough to swim there, so although there is a dirt track to a house at the point, it has a locked gate and divers may not use it, even if they wanted to (the main road is 100m above the shore at this point - a long steep walk in dive gear with about 30 to 40kg of cylinder and weights). I have done this as a shore dive in about 1984, and would not willingly do so again. Therefore, no point in indicating a path on land, it would only get people into trouble. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 10:51, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
 * I have added a sub-article on the launch site (see also below) which should help address the access issue, and have also changed the text to clarify. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:43, 7 September 2010 (EDT)

 * Support: I like it! (WT-en) Seascapeza 22:32, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
 * having managed to finish my RL deadline early (wonders never cease) some more thoughts on this article: is it perhaps an idea to give a map on how to get to Millers Point slipway? Along with a helpful hint about not to park in the wrong place?
 * Also, why is Geology not a proper subheading? (it's under 'areas around Partridge Point' which makes it look like it's the Geology of the areas around Partridge Point and not the geology of Partridge)
 * and why, in the Geology section, is Peninsula in italics?
 * then, what protocol do you use to determine which animals get capital letters and which don't? for example:
 * 'Hottentot seabream, Roman, Galjoen, Blacktail, Fransmadam and Zebra may be seen here, and also puffadder shy sharks. ' why no caps for sharks?
 * and here:
 * 'Large shoals of small fish such as Hottentot sea bream and Fransmadam are frequently seen, and smaller groups of larger reef fish such as Roman, John Brown, Two-tone fingerfin and Galjoen. Cryptic species such as klipfish and redfingers are fairly common. '
 * then: swim-through or swimthrough? you have both.
 * finally:
 * all I can add is that there are several mentions of parts of the site which have not yet been mapped in detail -- should these mentions stay in or should they be ignored/deleted for now and then added in when the descriptions exist?
 * Apart from that, I still say Support.
 * (WT-en) Seascapeza 11:23, 6 September 2010 (EDT)

 * Hi Seascapeza. Thanks for the useful comments. In approximate order:
 * Map idea is good, the route map in the main article is not really sufficient on its own, and there are a large number of sites serviced by Miller's Point slipway, so I have started a sub-article for the Miller's Point slipway which can be linked from all of the sites which are accessed from there. All useful advice for the slipway can be at this one place. I guess I will have to do the same for all the other major launch sites eventually. The current map I have there is a placeholder until I get to drawing a better one. What do you think? Any useful comments on the format/template of the launch site article?
 * Geology has been a minor subsection of topography since the original dive site template was designed and reached consensus. I have moved it to below the leader paragraph of the topography section where it now obviously applies to the whole area. This could be changed, but for consitency would then have to be changed for all the dive sites, and geology is not a major heading.
 * I use italics to indicate geological formation names, in much the same way they are used with genus and species. It is not a universal convention, but it is a way of indicating that the names dont just refer to a place. Capitals would not help here.
 * I use capitals for the first word of a common name for a species. This is to indicate that it is a specific name and not a generalised description. Otherwise how would a reader know that a Walking anemone is not just an anemone walking, as an example. Usage is erratic and I have tried to clean up, but may have missed a few. Feel free to correct on sight. For example, klipfish and Redfingers, but Blue-spotted klipfish. I am open to better suggestions.
 * Swim-through vs swimthrough. Not fussy, have changed all to swim-through for consistancy. If you prefer the other way, go ahead and change them.
 * Parts not yet mapped: I dont know, do you think it is more useful to the diver to mention that the places are not mapped yet, or just not mention them. Might it encourage the adventurous diver to go out and explore where lack of any comment might imply lack of any interesting things to see?
 * Finally, as a diver, could you comment on jan's reservations (above) about the usefulness of the diving information? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:37, 7 September 2010 (EDT)

I have just uploaded the latest versions of all the maps and the svg. The False Bay west side season is drawing to an end, and the article may be as complete as I can get it until next winter, so I will give it another few days until 14 days have elapsed since the last person commented, and unless there are any others who wish to comment in that time, will then upgrade to star. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 15:14, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

Promoted to Startopic — (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:01, 24 September 2010 (EDT)

Star nomination for dive site Partridge Point
This nomination has been up for a couple of weeks now (since 16th August, without any feedback at all) Maybe no-one noticed? Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:38, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
 * Many of the regulars have been quiet the last few months. Not much activity on any of the Wikivoyage: namespace pages.  Maybe people are just busy traveling?  (WT-en) LtPowers 11:07, 2 September 2010 (EDT)
 * Hope you are right, That would be a highly appropriate reason for lack of activity. With luck they will all be back soon fired up with enthusiasm and new experiences. In the meanwhile I will just carry on surveying while I can. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:32, 3 September 2010 (EDT)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole

Wikivoyage criteria:

 * Covers the topic fully.
 * Layout and listings either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule.
 * Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable.
 * At least one good-quality photo or illustration accompanies the article. Complies.
 * If practical it has a map identifying relevant destinations. Complies.

Diver criteria:

 * A diver competent to dive the site but without any local knowledge should be able to plan a safe and enjoyable dive using the information provided (in conjunction with a regional diving guide if applicable.) Complies.
 * Conditions during the dive should come as no surprise. Complies.

Checklist:
Leader paragraph
 * The site is named Complies.
 * Type of site specified Complies.
 * Geographical location given in general terms Complies.
 * Nearest major landmark, near
 * Nearest City in
 * Region in
 * Country.

Understand
 * A map showing the position and layout of the site in some detail, preferably to scale. Complies.
 * Reason/s why one would choose to dive the site. Complies.

Position
 * GPS position for the site. Should put a diver at least somewhere on the site, specify where if possible Complies.
 * Alternative range and bearing or cross bearings to well defined and reasonably close landmarks. Photos of landmarks desirable.
 * distance from launch site or harbour for boat access (km or N.miles). Distance should be along the usual route, not as the crow flies.

Name
 * Optional image of whatever the site is named after. (particularly desirable for wreck sites, where a photo or painting of the vessel or a similar vessel is preferred.) Not applicable.
 * Explanation of origin of the site name, translation if applicable. Complies as far as possible.

Depth
 * Maximum depth to be expected on the site Complies.
 * If applicable, shallowest point of the site Not applicable.
 * Average depth of a dive can be added if it will be useful.

Visibility
 * Range of visibility to be expected when conditions are generally considered suitable for diving. Complies.

Topography
 * Description of the layout of the site Complies.
 * General idea of slope, profile and rugosity Complies.
 * Description of major features and landmarks Complies.
 * Condition of wreckage if applicable Not applicable.

Geology
 * Only for rocky reefs
 * Type of rock, (geological age, name of formation optional) Complies.
 * Strike and dip optional if applicable Complies.

Conditions
 * What weather conditions will result in good diving conditions. Complies.
 * Any specific weather conditions which will result in unpleasant or hazardous diving conditions. Complies.
 * Any special oceanographic or weather conditions the site is known for. (sudden offshore winds, upwellings, currents, plankton blooms, thermoclines etc) if applicable
 * Information sufficient to allow a reasonably competent diver with a moderate understanding of the local weather and climate to forecast conditions during a planned dive over a short period (3 to 4 hours) when on site. Complies.

Facilities Complies.
 * Generally only for shore access dives
 * Facilities must be in close walking range of parking area or entry points
 * Facilities appropriate to divers and accompanying family only.(parking, ablution, fast food, dive services, picnic areas, security, beach, shade, etc)

Get in

 * Adequate directions to reach the site Complies.
 * A map or aerial photo indicating the position of entry/exit areas (only for shore entry ) if the main site map is not sufficient. Complies.
 * Sufficient text for a person who has no local knowledge at all to find the site and identify any access areas with confidence. Complies.
 * Photos of the standard entry and exit points if applicable. Complies.

See

Marine life and/or Features
 * Photos of at least three organisms or features one may reasonably expect to see at the site Complies.
 * Photos of organisms that are special in some way may be included even if not frequently seen, but it should not be suggested that a visitor is likely to see them
 * Description of what a diver may see during a dive Complies.
 * if the photos were not taken at the site this should be mentioned. Not applicable.

Photography
 * advice on photographic equipment (macro/wide angle, need for external lighting) if appropriate. Complies.
 * photographic opportunities that may be expected or hoped for if applicable. Complies.

Suggested Routes
 * generally at least one suggested or recommended route, with an indication of what the diver may expect to see. This may be a drift dive if applicable. "Follow the divemaster" is not really a route and will only be accepted if there are really good reasons, which are adequately explained. Complies.
 * Some indication should be given of how long a dive on the route will take, and if it is a long route, an approximate distance. This is not essential if it is shown to scale on a map. needs more detail.   More detail added - complies.

Stay safe

Hazards
 * Site specific hazards of any kind, including access hazards if applicable. "No site specific hazards known" is null default, and implies that the local hazards are adequately described in the regional article. Complies.
 * Comprehensive listing of site related hazards (not regional hazards already in regional guide, ordinary diving hazards nor obvious sea/weather condition hazards). Advice on mitigation is optional. Complies.
 * security problems and land based hazards may also be mentioned if applicable. (theft/mugging risk, animals stealing food etc) Baboons should be mentioned.   Baboons mentioned - complies.

Skills Complies.

 * Skills, competence or certification level required for diving at the site, if any.
 * Skills recommended for diving at the site, if any.
 * "No special skills required/recommended" is null default, this implies that a person trained to dive in the region will be able to handle the normal conditions for diving at the site.

Equipment Complies.
 * any equipment beyond the standard equipment listed for the region in the regional guide, either reqired or recommended for the site for safety of convenience. Reason should be specified if not obvious.
 * "No special equipment required/recommended" is null default, and implies that divers trained to dive in the region, or who have some experience diving in the region will know what is needed.

Star nomination discussion copied from Project:Star nominations
I guess its time to nominate the next dive site article for Star. This is actually the first site that I completed surveying, and it has a relatively complete map. It is also the site that originally inspired me to write dive site guides for the Cape Town region. I started diving at Percy's in 1883 1983 and have dived there more than 100 times over the years, though not much recently. I have just gone through the article and found a few places that needed clarification, so have done that. I am fairly confident that the description is sufficiently complete, but need the outsider's perpective to illuminate my blind spots. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 12:06, 25 February 2011 (EST)
 * Since 1883! Wow, you're old! (WT-en) texugo 03:34, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Thank you for those kind words. After that comment, I can't even correct the typo or people will think you have lost your marbles. 1983 it should have been. At least someone has read the notice, now I just have to hope somone reads (and comments on) the article. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 01:42, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
 * You can just cross it out and correct it like this: 1883 1983 :) (WT-en) –sumone10154 17:30, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Thanks, sometimes one needs to be reminded of these little details. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 03:59, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

 * Support, although I have a few questions/comments. The "Back to" link at the bottom of the page seems a bit odd - is it necessary and/or consistent with the other dive guides?  Also, there are a handful of sentence fragments scattered throughout the article, and I wasn't sure if this was a stylistic choice or an oversight - for example, under "Facilities" it reads "Paved parking bay on seaward side of the road (R44). Sometimes crowded in the Kreef (Rock lobster) season but usually adequate".  Finally, the pictures are great and I wouldn't remove any of them, but the large number makes for an odd page layout.  Would it make more sense to use a tag for the wildlife photos, or some other layout to present this better?  With all that said, great job on another excellent dive article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:45, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I use a "Back to" link to reteurn to the sub-section of the main article that the link to the sub-article is from. This is useful because the main article is very long, and a bit of a hassle to find your way back to the area you were last examining. This is used consistently in all dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay articles for this reason. It was acceptable in the previous three Star nominations.
 * Sentence fragments are a hangover from the book that this was originally intended to be. Style has changed a bit since then, but not altogether updated. I will look into it.
 * I will consider a sub-sub-article with a gallery, as I used one in the first Star divesite after it was suggested by other Wikivoyagers. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 00:58, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I think that having a column of pictures running the entire length of an article and well beyond the text is a sign that there are too many images period, per our minimal use of images policy. To my knowledge, using galleries is not a sanctioned practice around here anyway. I'd say you just need to cut out some of the images.
 * Also, rather than the "Back to" link at the bottom, couldn't you just use the IsPartOf template to have the breadcrumb navigation include that link? (WT-en) texugo 22:26, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
 * For the images, I'm imagining a gallery similar to Singapore. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:19, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Looks useful, and must be acceptable policy to have made it in a Star article. I will try re-arranging to suit.• • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 01:02, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I just loaded Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole using Safari for mac and Firefox for mac and it looks good on both. The prior edit with the image list running to the bottom had display issues and was not wrapping with the template.  I tried a preview using a different template in substitution and it did the same. (I only tried the substitution in Safari for mac browser).  (WT-en) Pbsouthwood's recent rearrangement does not have any such issues. Nice article... -- (WT-en) felix 03:21, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * The addition of the image gallery is not displaying well for me. The vertical flush right runs down a little into the See section and then there is an unfortunate big white expanse with a messy intersection with the horizontally configured additional image display. The images themselves are very nice though and my personal view is that the article benefits from them. Hope this assists. -- (WT-en) felix 03:38, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * The images have been re-organised using small galleries as in the Singapore article. I had not seen (WT-en) felix's comments, and these may have been from before I finished the edits. It took some time to iron out the bugs, but I think those problems have been solved as they dont show on IE on my monitor. I will check on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:15, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Hi Peter, rather oddly the horizontally displayed image galleries containing more than 3 images are not diplaying normallly nor are they wrapping. The outcome is that they jut or ingress into the banner ad area on the RH side of the browser window. In the case of both my Safari for mac and Firefox for mac page loads the page does not auto 'set' to cover that area so the 4th image is partially hidden and disappears out of the browser window requiring a scroll right to see it. I assume the embedded html is not sufficiently instructing the browser for display page width. (Note that my advert banner display prefs are set to off). Normally my browsers will not show this content area by default even if I widen out the window to full screen width. I have done a reload of both browsers and a cache clear and it repeats so I guess it is enduring. 3 images are OK even if the browser window size is reduced, they do not wrap but the display characteristics are normal to those I expect to see if I reduce a window width. I have not reset my prefs to displaybanner ads to see if the problem remains. Maybe this is a normal display characteristic but I do not recall seeing it before, however maybe I have just not noticed it. Grouping in a max of 3 images wide would appear to be the solution. I have not checked it on a cellphone or pda type device. Nice images, makes me feel like going for a swim but it is nightime now. cheers -- (WT-en) felix 06:45, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Sorry Peter I should have also mentioned that the (big white expanse) issue I referred to before was indeed from before you finished the edits and that issue is no longer apparent, only the 4th image problem mentioned above. -- (WT-en) felix 06:56, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * No problems in display on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. I do have a wide screen though I usually view on a slight zoom at 125%. The problem you are having I can duplicate if I make the window narrow enough. The question now is, do I go to gallery width of 3 images, which is very narrow on my screen and makes double rows in placed, or stay with 4, which looks much better on my screen. I guess it should display well on the average laptop, so can somebody check for me which width works well on a laptop, as I dont have one. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:59, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I have decided to just go with the 3 image width and rearranged the images to suit. This should give best all round appearance as approprite for a star nomination. I have also upgraded the map with routes, logo and a few formattig improvements. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 09:17, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I am currently working on a 15" laptop as my 17" has a dead video processor. My (much older) 15" laptop is my back up and being an older machine the screen res is a lot lower, this also creates more fit problems however that screen size and resolution is possibly a good real world baseline. Your change to 3 wide still does the same thing with the ad banner area ingress but is virtually unnoticeable without actually looking for the problem. It looks and feels good and when reducing the browser window width the entire article wraps in a much nicer and more fluid way. The 4 wide was not actually a problem if my browser window was dragged out to a decent width as it will fit the 4 images. However a lot of people are using much smaller screens especially when travelling, also I often set the browser window a bit narrower if I am running other stuff in the background and I think a lot of other people may do that as well. I think you have done the right thing going to 3 wide, better to have a bit of white space over on the RH side of the page than any strange indenting into the ad banner area.
 * There seems to be another small problem now. The edit click points for all of the Understand sub-headings are lining up together. They are in a horizontal group of 5 and the group is flushed right and run up to the images. Same thing on both browsers and it seems they follow the images in position rather than the typography. Indeed the [edit][edit] [edit] [edit] [edit] aligns with the top left hand corner of the image captioned "View of the entry gully from the cliff on the north side." Seriously reducing the browser window width will make them independently wrap with one or two of them of them moving down the page, however even crushed up to absolute minimum width three of them still cluster together, on max window width there are 5 clustering together. It seems odd and as it is happening on both Safari and Firefox (for mac) then it is either some strange Mozilla thing (the two browsers are related at a low level) or something else is up. Aside from that the article looks great and it surely must be getting this star pretty soon. -- (WT-en) felix 12:47, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
 * That's a MediaWiki bug; you can see it, not infrequently, on Wikipedia and other wikis. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:32, 25 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I get that all the time on IE. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. Its a bit of a pain as it can take some time to find the right one. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:22, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Yes I get it sometimes both on WT and WP and it is a pain but I was not sure if it was something in the markup that set it off. I did not realise it was X-platform (mac and PC), rather I assumed it was something that arose from and incompatibility with the specific browsers used on macs. This article must be ready for the star by now surely. Support from me for what ever it's worth. I was glad to read the Baboons were dealt with. Did not imagine they had a lot of effect on diving but I guess I should get out more. -- (WT-en) felix 14:31, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Baboons can be a serious nuisance in the southern Cape Peninsula, where tourists have gotten them accustomed to handouts, and they have now learned to open car doors and help themselves. They hang out in gangs and are always on the lookout for easy pickings. Leave your car open at some places, and you may find it looted with contents strewn around the road. At Rooi-els they have learned to break into unoccupied houses, but not yet cars. We are not able to persuade them that divers dont carry anything worth stealing, because they can smell that it is not true. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 16:51, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

Support. As ever, love your work Peter.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:27, 27 April 2011 (EDT)

It has been a month and no more comment, so I guess I will slap on the star. Thanks to everyone for the comments, as usual they have all helped to improve the article. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:35, 30 May 2011 (EDT)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Photographer's Reef

Upgrade to Star
I am planning to upgrade this article to Star, so have added the checklist below to keep track of what still meeds to be done. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:05, 11 October 2010 (EDT)

Wikivoyage criteria:

 * Covers the topic fully.
 * Layout and listings either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule.
 * Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable.
 * At least one good-quality photo or illustration accompanies the article. Complies.
 * If practical it has a map identifying relevant destinations. Complies.

Diver criteria:

 * A diver competent to dive the site but without any local knowledge should be able to plan a safe and enjoyable dive using the information provided (in conjunction with a regional diving guide if applicable.)
 * Conditions during the dive should come as no surprise.

Checklist:
Leader paragraph
 * The site is named Complies.
 * Type of site specified Complies.
 * Geographical location given in general terms:
 * Nearest major landmark, near Complies.
 * Nearest City in Complies.
 * Region in Complies.
 * Country. Complies.

Understand
 * A map showing the position and layout of the site in some detail, preferably to scale. Complies.  Add names of JJM junior and North Photographer's Reef (done)
 * Reason/s why one would choose to dive the site. Needs work (done)   Complies.

Position
 * GPS position for the site. Should put a diver at least somewhere on the site, specify where if possible Complies.
 * Alternative range and bearing or cross bearings to well defined and reasonably close landmarks. Photos of landmarks desirable. Complies.
 * distance from launch site or harbour for boat access (km or N.miles) Complies: See "Get in" section.

Name
 * Optional image of whatever the site is named after Not applicable.
 * Explanation of origin of the site name, translation if applicable. Complies.

Depth
 * Maximum depth to be expected on the site Complies.
 * If applicable, shallowest point of the site Complies.

Visibility
 * Range of visibility to be expected when conditions are generally considered suitable for diving. Complies.

Topography
 * Description of the layout of the site Complies.  Split description to subsection for each reef. (done)
 * General idea of slope, profile and rugosity Could use a bit more detail. (done)  Complies.
 * Description of major features and landmarks Could use a bit more detail. (done)  Complies.
 * Condition of wreckage if applicable Not applicable.

Geology
 * Only for rocky reefs Complies.
 * Type of rock, (geological age, name of formation optional) Complies.  Could use a bit of detail on how it got to be that shape. (done)
 * Strike and dip optional if applicable Not applicable.

Conditions
 * What weather conditions will result in good diving conditions. Complies.
 * Any specific weather conditions which will result in unpleasant or hazardous diving conditions. Complies.
 * Any special oceanographic or weather conditions the site is known for. (sudden offshore winds, upwellings, currents, plankton blooms, thermoclines etc) if applicable Complies.
 * Information sufficient to allow a reasonably competent diver with a moderate understanding of the local weather and climate to forecast conditions during a planned dive over a short period (3 to 4 hours) when on site. Complies.

Facilities
 * Generally only for shore access dives Get information from Windmill and Penguin Point articles. Update as appropriate (done)  Complies.
 * Facilities must be in close walking range of parking area or entry points
 * Facilities appropriate to divers and accompanying family only.(parking, ablution, fast food, dive services, picnic areas, security, beach, shade, etc)

Get in

 * Adequate directions to reach the site. Complies.
 * A map or aerial photo indicating the position of entry/exit areas (only for shore entry ) if the main site map is not sufficient. Complies. (main map OK, also has photos)
 * Sufficient text for a person who has no local knowledge at all to find the site and identify any access areas with confidence. Complies.
 * Photos of the standard entry and exit points if applicable. Complies.

See

Marine life and/or Features
 * Photos of at least three organisms or features one may reasonably expect to see at the site Complies.
 * Description of what a diver may see during a dive Complies.

Photography
 * advice on photographic equipment (macro/wide angle, need for external lighting) if appropriate. Complies.
 * photographic opportunities that may be expected or hoped for if applicable. Could use a bit more information. (done)  Complies.

Suggested Routes
 * generally at least one suggested or recommended route, with an indication of what the diver may expect to see. This may be a drift dive if applicable. "Follow the divemaster" is not really a route and will only be accepted if there are really good reasons, which are adequately explained. Complies.

Stay safe

Hazards
 * Site specific hazards of any kind, including access hazards if applicable. "No site specific hazards known" is null default. Complies.
 * Comprehensive listing of site related hazards (not regional hazards already in regional guide, ordinary diving hazards nor obvious sea/weather condition hazards). Advice on mitigation is optional.
 * security problems and land based hazards may also be mentioned if applicable. (theft/mugging risk, animals stealing food etc) Complies.

Skills Equipment
 * Skills or competence required for diving at the site, if any. Complies.
 * Skills recommended for diving at the site, if any. Complies.
 * "No special skills required/recommended" is null default.
 * any equipment beyond the standard equipment listed for the region in the regional guide, either reqired or recommended for the site for safety of convenience. Reason should be specified if not obvious. Complies.
 * "No special equipment required/recommended" is null default

Discussion from Project:Star nominations for Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Photographer's Reef
This dive site article has reached the stage where I think it meets the dive site criteria for Star. The article talk page contains a checklist for dive site article star criteria as used in the previous two star articles on dive sites. I would greatly appreciate any comments on what can be done to improve it, and any minor copyediting would also be good, as I have probably gone way past the blindness to small mistakes level by now. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:02, 11 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Support — I have gone over it, and added a small section on seacatfish, plus removed what typos and other minor mistakes I found. Just a question: Why Boulders Beach and not Pumphouse Gully? (WT-en) Seascapeza 06:07, 15 October 2010 (EDT)
 * I dont know. Could you be more specific? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 06:17, 15 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Sure. It's the capitalization which isn't consistent. you say Boulders Beach and Pumhouse gully. (WT-en) Seascapeza 05:28, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

 * OK, thought it might be that. Sorted. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:53, 24 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Support. My only request would be to add a caption to Image:Sea squirt at Photographers Reef DSC05042.JPG, and to possibly copyedit the text in the "Get in" section a bit.  "Get in" currently contains some sentence fragments ("Usually considered a boat dive.") and I had to re-read the second and third paragraphs a few times to understand the flow.  Perhaps these two paragraphs would read better if they were combined into a single paragraph with some transitional text "... Either of these shore entry areas can be reached by driving through Simon's town...".  Otherwise, this looks like yet another great article, and the maps are excellent. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:10, 17 October 2010 (EDT)
 * Done. There is now a caption on the image and Get in has been changed as you suggested. Thanks for the comments. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:19, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Support. This is a relatively small reef, but well covered, and given my experience diving it (from both shore and by boat), there is nothing missing about its description, location, access, marine life, etc. (WT-en) G Zsilavecz 13:44, 18 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Three supports and no dissentions. All minor issues dealt with. Three weeks from last comment will be Monday 8th. If there is no further comment by then I will star it. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 01:12, 6 November 2010 (EDT)

 * Monday 8th has come and gone, so will now star it. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:45, 12 November 2010 (EST)

Star nominations for Photographer's Reef and Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay
These two articles have been nominated for star and await revier and comment at Wikivoyage:Star nominations.

Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay is the first Regional Dive Guide to be nominated for star and therefore it would be desirable to get as much community involvement as possible, as this will to some extent provide a standard for future articles of this kind. (if it makes it). -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 02:30, 15 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Photographer's Reef has been promoted to star, Thanks to all who commented.

 * A large part of the issues brought up regarding Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay have been addressed, but there is a policy issue outstanding. If anyone has the time to look the discussion over and maybe even check over the article it would be appreciated. I think the process is nearing finalisation, as there is not much more that I can do at this stage based on the current outstanding issues. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 14:37, 19 November 2010 (EST)

Swept in from Travellers' Pub • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 05:11, 17 January 2011 (EST)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle

''This page is for discussing the corresponding article or guide. For more about using talk pages check out Project:Using talk pages.''

Comments
I'm not a great fan of long lists, escpecially not in star articles, not sure about myself, but how about ditching that long list and doing something like this instead? the current setup doesn't really have star quality to it I think.

Though the text blurbs should be made to a more similar size to make it look more uniform

 * 6. Nudibranch tour: At least 20 species of Ophismobranch (sea slugs) have been seen at this site. It is not impossible to see as many as 12 species on a dive, though 6 to 8 is more likely.

Hi Stefan, thanks for the feedback.
 * My first response to this is that I initially had galleries, but was asked to remove them as a matter of policy. ie. WT does not have galleries. I have not seen this written in any guideline, so it may only be the opinion of one person, but it may also be that I have just not found it.
 * There is also the problem of sacrificing information for style. Which is more important? to provide the useful information or to comply with the recommended style? By following your suggestions, I must leave out some of the descriptions as there is no photo. This is not a crisis, but does to some extent reduce the completeness of the information provided, reducing value to the traveller. Similarly, the if the long captions are shortened, there is an information loss, if the short ones are lengthened, they may require padding.
 * If this style is to be applied to other sites it may have other problems, as yet unknown. This by itself would not bother me unduly, as trying it would be a way of finding out. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 02:26, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Where was that gallery comment? They're a relative new Mediawiki feature, so they're not much used on WT, but AFAIK there's no policy against them (I use them on occasion, see eg. Okinawa) and illustrating wildlife is a perfect application for them.  I also see absolutely no reason to start shortening or lengthening captions to make them line up.

 * One suggestion though: instead of "hiding" the info at a single dive site, you might want to split it off into a dedicated article along the lines of African flora and fauna. (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:59, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Or expanding the ones with less, anyway nothing crucial but the Protea Nudibranch paragraph was so long it looked really silly, other than that it's fine just leave it as it is. That gallery comment was about a different use - a general gallery of pictures of the destination, is not the same as this - hmmm - "illustraion of concepts", I think most of us prefer to have general pictures of the destinations right aligned in the text. Another example of use of the gallery feature is Angkor

 * And galleries don't have to be there in every guide, but should be seen more as a way to avoid long lists. As far as I can tell it's far from all the dive sites have this issue (though the other nomination does, in a different way)--(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:16, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

Missing Nudibranches, one missing (Silver tipped nudibranch) does these all work for you? and do you have a photo of the missing one lying around? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:00, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

→ ,
 * Blue speckled nudibranch (Dendrodoris caesia)

→
 * Coral nudibranch (Phyllodesmium serratum)

→
 * Dwarf warty (pleurobranch Pleurobranchaea tarda)

→
 * Iridescent nudibranch (Notobryon wardi)

→
 * Lemon pleurobranch (Berthellina citrina)

→ a SURG picture
 * Orange eyed nudibranch (Cratena capensis)

→ ???? any of these?
 * Silver tipped nudibranch (Janolus capensis)???

→
 * Soft coral nudibranch (Tritonia sp. 1)

→
 * White edged nudibranch (Flabellina capensis)

Stefan, I see that you used a specific markup for the gallery. Where can I find the syntax/definition/instructions for this? Is it Wikimarkup or HTML or CSS or something else? (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 04:59, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
 * I have put in most of the missing nudibranchs. The gallery is now more or less complete. Any further comments or suggestions? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

Star nomination discussions
Discussions of the star nomination process for this article are archived at Project:Star_nominations/Archives


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle/Gallery

This sub article is part of a Star rated travel topic. See discussions at Talk:Diving_the_Cape_Peninsula_and_False_Bay/Pinnacle for reasons and consensus.

I have used the same page banner as the main article as they are on the same topic. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:50, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

All the pages listed Category:Gallery_pages
There are only three of them. People can find these pictures at Wikimedia Commons if they want; these pages do not seem to match our goals. Two of them were created in 2009-2010 by the same user, and the other one was created in 2016. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 02:30, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I hope we hear from people more involved in the diving articles, but I'd vote to delete on the same basis as you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Delete St. Louis/Mississippi Gallery, but I wouldn't object if it was merged into St. Louis. I don't find this a useful set of images and the creator didn't justify it at the time.
 * Keep Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Coral Gardens (Rooi-els)/Gallery and Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle/Gallery. These are appendices to a star and a guide article. I think that they are a useful addition to the article, and at the time the minimal use of image policy would have deterred putting these in the article. Longer term they could be merged in to the articles, but there is no hurry for that. AlasdairW (talk) 11:56, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree with AlasdairW's assessemnt and recommendation. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:17, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I remember now taking part in a discussion about this with Peter Southwood. I agree that these could simply be galleries on Commons, but I can respect that this is how the diving community wants to structure diving guides. I think it's perfectly OK for there to be differences in how articles designed for different audiences are structured. So I'll be neutral in this nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree—the two diving galleries don't seem to be doing any harm, so I'm happy to defer to editors who work on diving articles.
 * As for the St. Louis/Mississippi gallery, it might be better to redirect it to St. Louis, and include the images in listing templates. Alternatively it could possibly be expanded into a travel topic or itinerary. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:10, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that very few, if any, pages listed at VFD do any harm. But VFD is still used to delete articles. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 17:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The St. Louis gallery should absolutely be deleted. There's no good reason to keep it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say a significant fraction of pages that are deleted were doing harm, by misleading or distracting readers without offering much value. In any case, I'm not saying "They do no harm, so let's keep them"; I'm saying "They do no harm, so let's let the people who edit in this area make the judgement call". —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:09, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I see. That makes sense. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 02:13, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think it makes sense in terms of St. Louis. Galleries are for Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe Granger was referring to the diving galleries, not the St. Louis one, but I may be wrong. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 02:19, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that's what I meant. For St. Louis, I think merging or deletion makes sense, unless someone wants to expand it into an itinerary article or something similar. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:46, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * And when you say "let's let the people who edit in this area make the judgment call", you mean people who know about diving, you don't mean people who live in the St. Louis area. That may be what IK thought you meant. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 17:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I was just clarifying. I think the result of these noms is clear: Delete the St. Louis gallery unless someone wants to put it in their userspace and keep the other two. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree. We should wait out the 2 weeks though, right? --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 00:33, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It could be moved to Commons, where galleries are in scope. Is it better than Commons:Category:Bridges over the Mississippi River at St. Louis or what could easily be done using the subcategories? At least these images seem to be well documented and valuable. I added them to that category and its subcategories, they were uncategorised before. --LPfi (talk) 10:15, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Result: St. Louis/Mississippi Gallery is deleted; Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Coral Gardens (Rooi-els)/Gallery and Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle/Gallery are kept. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 19:44, 2 February 2019 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Smits Reef

Naming of parts
I propose to call the whole reef Smits Reef, with the other diving names applied to specific parts of the reef. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) Talk 06:16, 6 September 2010 (EDT)
 * The Maze can only refer to the jumble of boulders at the south east corner. This complies with common usage and will not be controversial.
 * Horseshoe Reef will be used for the north eastern part, where the reef curves round the big indentation. It is the only part of the reef which in any way resembles a horseshoe that I know of.
 * Birthday reef may be used for the part of the reef which was originally given that name if I can find out which part it is...

Wikivoyage criteria:

 * Effectively covers most aspects of the topic with no obvious omissions.  Complies
 * If practical, it should contain a listing of relevant destinations. (not relevant to dive site)
 * The format should closely match the manual of style.  Complies

Diver criteria:

 * A suitably competent diver with little local knowledge should be able to plan a safe dive using the information provided.(in conjunction with the regional diving guide.)  Complies

Checklist:

 * Template present, all appropriate headings present  Complies
 * Style basically correct and complies with Wikivoyage recommendations.  Complies
 * A map or aerial photo is present for shore access sites, and displays useful information. A map should comply with the Wikivoyage map style conventions where this does not adversely affect usefulness.  Complies
 * GPS position data or other means of identifying position accurately without local knowledge.  Complies
 * All subheadings contain useful information unless the subheading does not apply to the site, in which case it is not shown.  Complies
 * At least one photograph of marine organism or feature of the site.  Complies
 * The site should be a sub-article of a regional dive guide.  Complies

"technically an offense"
Thanks for explaining what you mean by "technically an offence". It is correct to say "it is illegal", because it is illegal whether or not it is enforceable. But if you think it is important to let readers know they will likely get away with it, we could clarify this for readers, using words from your edit summary:
 * "It is illegal to damage the reef life, but the law is unenforceable in most circumstances. Other divers tend to object to it, as this is what we dive to see, so be careful."

Ground Zero (talk) 10:51, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The situation is a bit complicated. The regultions under which the MPA was proclaimed are intended to protect the environment, but allow some activities which are known to damage the environment. Neither the regulations nor statutory law go into detail of what all might be considered an offence, nor all the circumstances in which they may be permitted, though survival would reasonably be one, as would plausibly unpredictable conditions. Divers are expected to take reasonable precautions to avoid damage, but what would be considered reasonable is neither defined nor tested in the courts. Also underwater conditions may overwhelm the abilities of less competent divers where a more competent diver may manage without difficulty, and there is no minimum competence requirement. Negligence or malicious intent could be very difficult to prove, even by an expert witness in most cases. In some cases the park authorities might consider a course of action an offense against their interpretation of the bylaws, while the actual legality of the action is unsettled. As I am not a lawyer, I am not competent to advise on the details, and the people I have asked who might be competent also choose not to advise, probably for similar reasons. I see no great advantage to explaining this vagueness in detail in the article. If you are licensed or competent to advise on South African law, I am willing to accept your greater expertise. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 07:14, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's illegal, then don't advise people saying they could sort of get away with it. SHB2000 (talk) 07:19, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "If you are licensed or competent to advise on South African law...." There's no need to be hostile about this. We're both trying, within our abilities, to provide the best advice to readers. You understand what you mean by "technically" here, but the point is to try to help readers understand what you mean. Using a vague word that hides a complex topic does not help readers understand the issue. It's a cop-out. I think we should try to do better. Ground Zero (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not being hostile, just pointing out that this is a nuanced situation where it is easy to give misleading information. I do not think that your proposal is better than the original text, which while perhaps not ideal, is more accurate in my non-expert and non-professional opinion on the relevant law. I do not know whether your opinion on that law can be considered expert or professional. I also don't think that it is necessary or desirable to explain in the detail necessary to make it completely clear, but if you wish to do the research, you are free to do so. The primary point being that the legality of damaging reef life is unclear, complicated, and depends on circumstances. I also do not want people thinking that it is OK to damage the reefs because nothing can be done about it, nor do I want to just avoid the issue altogether, as divers should be mindful of the risk of environmental damage, and behave reasonably responsibly. Cheers, • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:38, 5 April 2021 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Smits Swim

Work to be done
Ideally there will be a scenic photo of each wreck in the order of the swim. Anyone with a suitable photo is invited to upload it and put in the link. The photo on the Good Hope is not great and if you have better, please substitute or add. A photo of a group of divers swimming along over one of the wrecks would also be good. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 04:20, 19 October 2009 (EDT)


text:
Talk:Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Star Wall

Wikivoyage criteria:

 * Covers the topic fully. Not yet, but getting there. Probably good enough already and quite extensively mapped
 * Layout and listings either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule. Complies
 * Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. Not bad, but needs a bit of work
 * At least one good-quality photo or illustration accompanies the article. Complies
 * If practical it has a map identifying relevant destinations. Complies

Diver criteria:

 * A diver competent to dive the site but without any local knowledge should be able to plan a safe and enjoyable dive using the information provided (in conjunction with a regional diving guide if applicable.) Complies
 * Conditions during the dive should come as no surprise. Complies

Checklist:
Leader paragraph
 * The site is named Complies
 * Type of site specified Complies
 * Geographical location given in general terms Complies
 * Nearest major landmark, near Complies
 * Nearest City in Complies
 * Region in Complies
 * Country. Complies

Understand
 * A map showing the position and layout of the site in some detail, preferably to scale. Complies
 * Reason/s why one would choose to dive the site. Complies

Position
 * GPS position for the site. Should put a diver at least somewhere on the site, specify where if possible Complies
 * Alternative range and bearing or cross bearings to well defined and reasonably close landmarks. Photos of landmarks desirable. Complies
 * distance from launch site or harbour for boat access (km or N.miles). Distance should be along the usual route, not as the crow flies. Complies - see "Get In" section

Name
 * Optional image of whatever the site is named after. (particularly desirable for wreck sites, where a photo or painting of the vessel or a similar vessel is preferred.) Not applicable
 * Explanation of origin of the site name, translation if applicable. Complies

Depth
 * Maximum depth to be expected on the site Complies
 * If applicable, shallowest point of the site Complies
 * Average depth of a dive can be added if it will be useful. Complies

Visibility
 * Range of visibility to be expected when conditions are generally considered suitable for diving. Complies

Topography
 * Description of the layout of the site needs more surveys to complete, but good enough at a pinch
 * General idea of slope, profile and rugosity Acceptable, but could be improved with further surveys
 * Description of major features and landmarks Complies, but could be expanded
 * Condition of wreckage if applicable Not applicable

Geology
 * Only for rocky reefs Complies
 * Type of rock, (geological age, name of formation optional) Complies
 * Strike and dip optional if applicable '''Not applicable

Conditions
 * What weather conditions will result in good diving conditions. Complies
 * Any specific weather conditions which will result in unpleasant or hazardous diving conditions. Complies
 * Any special oceanographic or weather conditions the site is known for. (sudden offshore winds, upwellings, currents, plankton blooms, thermoclines etc) if applicable Complies
 * Information sufficient to allow a reasonably competent diver with a moderate understanding of the local weather and climate to forecast conditions during a planned dive over a short period (3 to 4 hours) when on site. Complies

Facilities
 * Generally only for shore access dives Not applicable
 * Facilities must be in close walking range of parking area or entry points Not applicable
 * Facilities appropriate to divers and accompanying family only.(parking, ablution, fast food, dive services, picnic areas, security, beach, shade, etc) Not applicable

Get in

Shore entry Boat entry
 * Adequate directions to reach the site Not applicable
 * A map or aerial photo indicating the position of entry/exit areas (only for shore entry ) if the main site map is not sufficient. Not applicable
 * Sufficient text for a person who has no local knowledge at all to find the site and identify any access areas with confidence. Not applicable
 * Photos of the standard entry and exit points if applicable. Not applicable
 * Location of slipway/harbour/launch site/pickup area(s). Complies
 * Distance of boat ride and/or duration of boat ride. Complies

See

Marine life and/or Features
 * Photos of at least three organisms or features one may reasonably expect to see at the site Complies
 * Photos of organisms that are special in some way may be included even if not frequently seen, but it should not be suggested that a visitor is likely to see them Complies
 * Description of what a diver may see during a dive Complies but more feature photos would be nice
 * if the photos were not taken at the site this should be mentioned. Not applicable

Photography
 * advice on photographic equipment (macro/wide angle, need for external lighting) if appropriate. Can use more detail
 * photographic opportunities that may be expected or hoped for if applicable. More detail desirable

Suggested Routes
 * generally at least one suggested or recommended route, with an indication of what the diver may expect to see. This may be a drift dive if applicable. "Follow the divemaster" is not really a route and will only be accepted if there are really good reasons, which are adequately explained. 3 routes given, more will be possible after further surveys
 * Some indication should be given of how long a dive on the route will take, and if it is a long route, an approximate distance. This is not essential if it is shown to scale on a map. More detail needed

Stay safe

Hazards
 * Site specific hazards of any kind, including access hazards if applicable. "No site specific hazards known" is null default, and implies that the local hazards are adequately described in the regional article. Complies, but maybe can use a bit more
 * Comprehensive listing of site related hazards (not regional hazards already in regional guide, ordinary diving hazards nor obvious sea/weather condition hazards). Advice on mitigation is optional. Complies, but maybe could use a bit more
 * security problems and land based hazards may also be mentioned if applicable. (theft/mugging risk, animals stealing food etc) Not applicable

Skills
 * Skills, competence or certification level required for diving at the site, if any. Complies
 * Skills recommended for diving at the site, if any. Complies'''
 * "No special skills required/recommended" is null default, this implies that a person trained to dive in the region will be able to handle the normal conditions for diving at the site. Not applicable

Equipment
 * any equipment beyond the standard equipment listed for the region in the regional guide, either reqired or recommended for the site for safety of convenience. Reason should be specified if not obvious. Complies
 * "No special equipment required/recommended" is null default, and implies that divers trained to dive in the region, or who have some experience diving in the region will know what is needed. Not applicable


text:
Talk:Dixfield

needs cleanup Maj... i started it... 130.111.98.239 12:45, 1 April 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:Dixfield


text:
Talk:Southern Utah

OK, so, first off, I'm thrilled that we're getting a nice region structure for Utah. Thrilled. I love it when it all shakes out so nicely.

However... I think this article is something of a naming challenge. Most people don't think "Southern Utah" when they hear Dixie. They think, usually, of the South, with or without Texas and/or Florida.

Even though we're not using the name "Dixie" for that region, I'd like to move this article to Dixie (Utah) and make Dixie a redirect to the South. Any big objections? --(WT-en) Evan 09:59, 2 March 2006 (EST)

 * No "big" objections, but two minor ones: First, there is no problem here yet, since the term "Dixie" applied to the American South isn't in use elsewhere in WikiTravel that I can see. Second, the use of "Dixie" applied to the American South is considered pejorative by some.  Why invite trouble?

 * This said, if you want to make this change, do it with my blessing, and now is a good time, while the number of pages linking to this one is still small. Please do try to update the pages linking here; I think there are only four or five. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 10:05, 2 March 2006 (EST)

 * Isn't it the theme song? Who considers it pejorative? -- (WT-en) Mark 10:52, 2 March 2006 (EST)

 * I used to think it was an innocent song. Wikipedia learned me better. -- (WT-en) Colin 14:39, 2 March 2006 (EST)

Cedar City
Cedar City would never consider itself to be part of Dixie, it pretty much starts at the county line. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 12.110.0.35 (talk • contribs)

title: Talk:Southern Utah


text:
Talk:Diyarbakır

I changed the German stuff to an English stub. I don't have any German, so I can't mine it for data. It seems to be copied from Diyarbakir on the German Wikipedia.

--(WT-en) Evan 19:09, 5 Jul 2004 (EDT)

They seemed to have put it back again. Here's the German: 'Diyarbakir'

Diyarbakir (kurdisch und zazaisch Amed) ist eine Stadt im Südosten der Türkei mit ca. 589.000 (2003) Einwohnern. Es gibt jedoch schon seit einigen Jahren inoffizielle Schätzungen, dass die Stadt, einschließlich ihrer Slums (türkischer Begriff: gecekondu - über Nacht erbaut), inzwischen mehr als eine Millionen Einwohner hat. Das sind vor allem Menschen, die vor dem türkischen Militär aus ihren Dörfern in der Region flüchteten. Sie gilt als die inoffizielle Hauptstadt der Kurden obwohl die stadt auch ein Zaza Stadt ist wird es von kurdische nationalisten diese wahrheit hintergangen und wird eine reine kurdischen stadt deklariert.

Attractions in Urfa
Wikivoyage rules state that attractions, resturants, hotels etc. must have ONE listing per THE ENTIRE SITE. Abraham's path and the Yuvacali village belong in Urfa, in the Urfa article they must appear, and nowhere else. 200.252.135.73 09:48, 26 July 2012 (EDT)

title: Talk:Diyarbakır


text:
Talk:Djibouti

Currency style
So it seems that for Djibouti, there is no style for the currency notation that is applied with any consistency. Which one should we use? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Djibouti


text:
Talk:Djursland

I removed the following copyvio. If the contributor is able to release it under Project:Copyleft then it needs to be edited to fit our Project:Manual of style. Thanks. (WT-en) Maj 15:06, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Ebeltoft city, the "Piece de Resistance" of Djursland, Jylland, restored 1860 Battle Frigate "Jylland" a world class maritime showpiece.

Frigate The world's longest wooden ship is resting it's enormous keel solidly on concrete, within meters of the sea, where it once fought a battle against the Austro-Prussian fleet, on behalf of King Fredrik the 7th., in 1864. Otherwise, it's 25 year active life as a commissioned battle frigate of the Royal Danish Navy, the "Jylland" was mostly used to ferry royal parties throughout the Kingdom, including Greenland, and European capitals. In 1886 it made it's last of 5 cruises across the Atlantic to the Danish West indian islands of St.Thomas, St.Croix and St.John, at which time it had been rebuilt to become a Royal Vessel and the 15 ton canon in the royal dining room was removed, having been part of the total compliment of 30 canons on board.

From 1925, the once mighty pride of Denmark, had a varied life, serving variously as accommodation for students and barracks for soldiers. By 1974 it had gone through no less then five preservation committee's, the last of which, had it towed across Kattegat to Ebeltoft, where it sat rotting further until 1984. The last trip was into a drydock built for it on the waterfront of town and total restoration began in earnest, thank's to a nationwide fund-raising campaign and a philanthropic kick of shipping magnate A.P. Møller's Mærsk Line.

It was a gargantuan, task employing the best tradespeople in the country for five years and the result is a unique monument to a proud seafaring nation. The multi million dollar job practically handbuild all woodwork, including righting the warped keel with a technically challenging method. The Jylland now stands in all it's 3-master glory as a part of a major marine complex along the waterfront which is part of Ebeltoft city center, and includes other vessels of historic value. A major workshop is now being set up next to the Frigate to renovate old wood ships.

The 675 year old city was not always a touristic destination, except for a few hundred people who came from Copenhagen and Aarhus in the summer season, staying in cottages along the coast. They found the quaint ways of the "Molbo's", ( danish equivalent of Newfies ), and the half-timbered houses embellished by hollyhock roses along cobblestoned streets, to their liking. Indeed, it's within living memory that a Town crier went around bellowing the news of the day. Now people come from afar to see the frigate and the tiny perfect city hall from 1789, now a museum complete with the original dungeon, reached through a trap door in the floor of the reception hall.

City Hall Many come year round to get married in the historic city hall and have pictures taken with the uniformed night watchmen, who commence their evening walk-around at sundown, with lanterns and cat'o'nine tails, from the old stone steps, flanked by canons. Until Jylland's resurrection ceremony in 1995, the spired city hall was the City hallmark, but other reasons attracted visitors, one being the year round exhibition''s of modern Glass Art, located in the old custom house, but several glass artists have set up studio's in town and have their own exhibitions. Another "must see" site is Farvergaarden (the old dye-works) with its original courtyard buildings and lovely garden.

Ebeltoft is not only seeped in history, but now is the location of The European School of Film which opened a few years ago and housed in the hills just behind town. Unique restaurants abound in town, as well outside, in the hills of "Molboland".

In town look for "The Crooked Inn" where you can eat in the courtyard where 50 years ago, huge horses were readied for work in fields outside town and a large farm family lived in the four winged half-timbered stuccoed building. Out of town head for Femmøller (Five Mills) and the Overmøllen Eatery where they farm their own trouts and cook them to perfection.

While there, drive / bike / hike into the hills of Mols to the Natural Laboratory operated by University of Aarhus and the Ministry of the Environment and used as a field laboratory by scientists and students from universities and institutes of higher learning. Here is an ongoing research program in natural land rejuvenation, with interaction of animals, fauna, insects, birds, promoting natural fertilization. Here are long-haired Iceland sheep and small dark brown Galloway cattle used in grazing research year round, by the Mols Laboratory. Also in this area is Three Hills holding three large Bronze age burial mounds of which there are 14 in the area.

Mols Bjerge (the Hills of Mols) area is currently being considered as a National Park, by the Danish Government.(WT-en) Danetour 13:57, 28 April 2007 (EDT)]]

title: Talk:Djursland


text:
Talk:Dobbs Ferry

I just called the phone number for Mimosa -- the message says they went out of business on Jan 1. So, I removed the listing. --(WT-en) Evan 11:03, 29 January 2007 (EST)

title: Talk:Dobbs Ferry


text:
Talk:Dogon Country

I have reworked this page a bit to get more content in to it, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to where to put the villages section. As you can see, I've listed it in Do. It might not be the best spot, but there are a lot of overlapping sections here and so I'm hoping the community can maybe come to a consensus as to where these should go. I really don't think that each village should have a separate Wiki page given that they are very small and the sections would be largely blank. --(WT-en) Primecoordinator 22:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 * We could put it in a "vilages" section with a 1-2 sentence blurb, similar to the way neighborhoods are a section in city articles. The most spectacular and noteworthy villages should be described in see so they don't get overlooked amongst the list of villages. (WT-en) AHeneen 22:50, 30 March 2010 (EDT)

 * Just write about them in the Understand section. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:53, 30 March 2010 (EDT)

 * So, should we just get rid of the Cities section and put Villages in its place? There really only is one city and that's Bandiagara.  It hardly needs a whole section just to list it as it can be in the introduction or listed somewhere else, as well as having a page created for it, which I'll do now given that there are a number of hotel options there. --(WT-en) Primecoordinator 08:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes. We use the term "cities" loosely, to describe any inhabited place that merits an article. If there are some villages that don't merit separate articles, but nonetheless are relevant, you can list them in that section in bold, with the standard style of description following. Really great work on this article, by the way! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:21, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

 * Okay, very much all done. Take a look and see what you think.  Also expanded out a large section on hiring guides, which, prior to traveling, I found next to no information on the net about, so I hope it helps some folks out.  Happy to have the info out there.  Just hope others fill in bits that I didn't get to see.  --(WT-en) Primecoordinator 16:35, 01 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Looks great! I love the guide to the guides section—enormously useful information. It would be nice to have a bit more specifics on the various villages (why to visit any given one), but that's probably rather obscure knowledge. Bandiagara should also be in that list, preferably at the top, unless we decide to just merge that city's content into this article?

 * Other things that this article really needs going forward are better developed understand and see sections. Understand ideally should contain well-developed history, culture, and religion subsections to provide travelers with context to appreciate what they are seeing. See should have an overview of what types of sights to expect, and listings of those sights that should not be overlooked (individual temples?).

 * Btw, it would be really cool to add in some sort of vague map of any quality to show where the villages are. OSM has some data available, although I'm not sure how best to present it if we import it, since I'm not quite sure which villages are most important to mark. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 11:43, 5 April 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Dogon Country


text:
Talk:Dogo Onsen

Though the writer of the blurb on Dogo Onsen suggests it's both too expensive and not worth the trouble, it's actually quite reasonably priced (especially when earning Japanese yen). Go for the works! It is in fact quite serene, the reason most people attend an onsen in the first place, yes? And after all, we are in rural Japan. Enjoy it for what it is! It's an oportunity to experience an incredible traditional treasure in its purest form. There's always a pachinko parlour or a karaoke bar within a stones throw if the serenity starts to get to you.

 * I'm the writer of the blurb, and I don't really see where I suggest either that it's too expensive or that it's not worth the trouble? Please edit out any undue negativity if you see it.  That said, I don't think Dogo Onsen at peak hour is anything even close to serene, especially if you compare it some of the real gems out there... (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:16, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Deletion
Someone might take a quick look to see if I missed anything, but otherwise, the info from this article has now been merged into Matsuyama and it's probably ready for deletion per the criteria described in the tag. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 02:05, 9 January 2007 (EST)

title: Talk:Dogo Onsen