text:
Talk:Afghanistan

Map
The following map is not used in the article: Yes it is. Also in Nurestan article. (WT-en) Pashley 00:22, 13 October 2006 (EDT)
 * Image:Af-map.png

Jalalabad major city?
I moved Jalalabad out of the "major cities" list. Our Project:World cities with 100K population or more gives only four in Af. (WT-en) Pashley 20:11, 11 October 2006 (EDT)
 * In the last census (2002), Jalalabad had 96000 people in the city itself. When you add in the population immediately around the city, that jumps up to 181000. It is generally considered within Afghanistan that the 4 major cities (plus Kabul) include Jalalabad. I tink it would have been better to leave it where it was. (WT-en) Davidbstanley 15:45, 12 October 2006 (EDT)

 * OK I moved it back. I was last there in 1970s, so am willing to be overrulled by people with more recent info. (WT-en) Pashley 00:22, 13 October 2006 (EDT)

Safest regions to mention?
The other day, I stumbled across a book from my local bookstore about traveling to Afghanistan. Although it did say that majority of the country is practically unsafe and downright dangerous to travel to (especially the southern region), it did mention that among all of Afghanistan, the best and most safest region is probably Badakhshan in the Northeast because militants and land mines are almost uncommon over there (or to say the least the region in the country with the lowest possible danger (I am aware of some incidents of kidnappings)). Should this be mentioned and should there be other places worthy of mention that are the least dangerous places?

changes to the warning

 * I removed the line in the warning box under stay safe that advised travelers to carry weapons. If you don't feel ok traveling unarmed then either hire an armed guard or stay out of Afghanistan. But advising travelers to arm themselves is totally unacceptable. (WT-en) Cacahuate 13 October 2006

 * I disagree fairly strongly. Methinks the text should be something like "Hire armed guards. Carry weapons yourself if you are competent with them." In terms of Afghan culture, there's nothing unacceptable about being armed. I was there in peacetime, before the Russian invasion. In the countryside, at least 70% of males over 10 carried rifles (then, mostly muzzle loaders; today, AK-47). In cities, perhaps one in five had a rifle. They more-or-less all had knives. I liked the place and people, but would not go back unless someone offered me an insane amount money. If I did go, I'd get some training and go armed. (WT-en) Pashley 11:51, 13 October 2006 (EDT)

 * You've only slightly disagreed with me... I'm not at all suggesting that it is safe to travel in Afghanistan... I'm simply saying that, as a tourist, arming yourself is silly and could only add to your problems. While the country IS heavily armed, it's a totally different story for a tourist. Carrying a weapon makes me assume that you would be willing to use it or at least threaten to, and that has serious implications. Can you imagine what would happen when it hits the news that an armed tourist shot someone? And simply showing it and threatening to use it would put you in far greater danger than smiling and trying to diffuse a situation. My point is, if you don't feel safe in Afghanistan either hire an armed guard or stay out. Violence only creates problems, it doesn't solve them. (WT-en) Cacahuate 14 October 2006

 * This is a travel guide, not just a tourism guide. This guide is expected to be useful to NGO and Aid workers.  -- 68.126.206.91 05:22, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

I think we can agree that That said, if you do have to go there, then I'd say carrying a gun is an option worth considering if you know how to handle one. If not, it is worth considering getting training. (WT-en) Pashley 06:36, 14 October 2006 (EDT)
 * Af is unsafe; only an Afghan or a lunatic could feel safe there
 * tourists should not go there
 * carrying a weapon you aren't trained and prepared to use is stupid
 * waving a gun around to intimidate people is really stupid
 * many dangerous situations are best dealt with without drawing a gun, even if you have one

 * The first thing that I would do if visiting the country is purchase a pistol, but only if a Kalashnikova was not easily available for purchase. I would never use the weapon or wave it around unless I was stopped at "road block" that was not an official road block.  That said, I think we should make a point that even if you do not intend on getting to a sticky situation it may be wise to call the American Embassy in Kabul and ask for advice about hiring a respectable body guard.  -- (WT-en) Sapphire 07:16, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

 * And what, pray tell, would you do with a Kalashnikov if you got your hands on one? Lugging one around is kinda inconvenient, and I speak from personal experience here.

 * At any rate, I think that instead of getting into the nitty-gritty, we should just state the obvious ("Afghanistan is not safe") and direct the reader to War zone safety for details. (Which, for reference, recommends keeping your hands where the roadblockers can see 'em, so they don't get jumpy and shoot you.)  The local point worth noting, though, is the bit about how ubiquitous guns in civilian hands are.  (In most war zones, it's just the government and the rebels who are armed.) (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:48, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

 * I'd fire randomly into the sky. A man from D.C. was talking to me about his experiences in Iraq helping the Iraqi government with Urban planning.  They offered him a AK-47 or a pistol, however, since he had an Arab complexion and was a Sunni muslim he opted for the pistol since he figured he'd blend in well enough that he wasn't in as much danger as other American contractors.  Other contractors that were guests of the Iraqi government and looked "western" we encouraged to carry the AK, even though it was annoying to carry it around.  One, it is a little scarier than a pistol.  Secondly, you could injure more attackers in a shorter period of time than with a pistol. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 07:57, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

 * This is indeed mostly a tourism guide. While some NGO workers may find it useful for restaurants, etc, I can promise you that NONE of them are consulting Wikivoyage for advice on personal safety, or work related issues. Plus the original comment in the warning box that we're discussing WAS aimed at tourists. If someone wants to buy a gun and feels they need it, that's their choice, and I never said it wasn't... but encouraging tourists to arm themselves is dangerous and stupid, to use Pashley's words. Again, what would be the repercussions if a tourist DID use a gun? Sure most people imagine Afghanistan like the wild west and all, but you can't think for a moment that an event like that would go unnoticed and that things wouldn't get ugly. And Sapphire, if you were stopped at an unofficial roadblock, do you think that they wouldn't be heavily armed? Would you actually consider pulling out a weapon? I know maybe it sounds a grand idea in your head, but the reality would be much different, I can promise you. (WT-en) Cacahuate 14 October 2006

 * Of course they'd be heavily armed and I would only consider using the weapon if I knew that by not using the weapon I wouldn't have a chance to live. I'd rather take the chance of scaring attackers away than to know by not taking that risk that I would die in the streets.  Anyhow, I think a body guard would do the same if he recognized that his client and himself were going to be murdered he'd implement evasive and "defensive" measures.

 * I think you were reading my comments wrong because I'm not advocating telling travellers purchasing a weapon is a resonable option, even though I would do it. I think the warning box should read something along these lines:  "Afghanistan is a very dangerous country, especially in the western and southern regions.  An increase in Taliban insurgence has led to some N.A.T.O. officals to believe the Taliban has regained control of roughly half the country.  All travel to Afghanistan is strongly discourage since the only way to stay safe in Afghanistan is by not going.  Should travel be a necessity hire a professional armed body guard." -- (WT-en) Sapphire 08:20, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

 * Agreed... I added a line about hiring an armed escort or going through a tour agency would decrease the risks... (WT-en) Cacahuate 15 October 2006
 * I really want to give everyone props for coming to a sensible consensus and not allowing this to get out of hand like some instances have in the past. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 03:38, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

 * Totally! I just slightly revised some more wording, not in the interest of nit-picking but in having the most up to date and least-broad description possible. While many people would argue that a simple sentence about afg being severely dangerous and 'do not go there' should suffice, I think it's much more practical to provide info for those who will not head those warnings on how to proceed safely (like myself, I'm currently here in Afghanistan despite many people trying to scare me out of coming). I've also had and witnessed extensive and heated discussions on LP's thorntree and elsewhere, so am trying to portray the most balanced viewpoint here from my own experience and that of others who have been here in the last couple of months. May this become the best source of info possible! :)  (WT-en) Cacahuate 15 October 2006

 * With Cacahuate's explanation of the current situation and safety advice plus the finer details accessible through the War zone safety link, I think the current information given in the 'Stay safe' section is more than adequate. (WT-en) WindHorse 04:24, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

 * I saw your (Cacahaute) edits and I think they're great. Can I ask what you're doing in Afghanistan (I don't want to know if you'll have to kill me :) )  -- (WT-en) Sapphire 04:29, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

 * Well, good question, I'm still trying to figure that out! I've been traveling for the last 1.5 years, and well... I was in Pakistan, it's so close, and I was curious. There aren't many people here traveling, but there are a small stream of them coming through from Iran to Pakistan or making sidetrips like myself, which is why I want to try to give info to those who will stubbornly come no matter what. I feel a lot safer here than I expected but am being extremely alert. That said, I heard a large explosion this morning here in Herat, followed by caravans of police and military speeding down the street... still haven't heard the details of that yet. (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:08, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

 * Sounds great, but be super careful. As you probably know, there was a Western reporter kidnapped in the country only yesterday - though it occured far from your area . Anyway, take it easy. (WT-en) WindHorse 05:23, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

War zone safety
I just added sections to that article on weapons and bulletproof vests. Edits or comments there are solicited. (WT-en) Pashley

Herat hotel?
There's a 5-star hotel in Herat?? First I've heard of that, can you provide details in the sleep section... (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:06, 5 December 2006 (EST)

 * I don't know their exact address, phone number or email contacts, here is a picture of it . There is also one called Diamond Hotel, which may be in the 4 star category.--(WT-en) Creative 20:07, 12 September 2007 (EDT)

 * Wow, that almost looks fake! The WP article says that a Serena Hotel is coming soon, but that doesn't look very Serena-ish. Anyway, if someone gets the details of that hotel, please add it to the article. Sounds like Herat's accommodation options are rapidly expanding – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 00:27, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

 * The Serena chain, owned by the Aga Khan, have a lot of hotels in Africa, six in Pakistan and one in Kabul, but according to their own web site, not yet one in Herat. It is possible their web site is out of date, but I'd want strong evidence before believing that. (WT-en) Pashley 02:34, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

 * The only things I can find on a quick search are on Wikipedia... unsourced statements about plans for a Serena in Mazar and Herat at Serena Hotel, and a mention of the Diamond Hotel in their Herat article. But nothing on google. I'm still really curious about that picture above... that looks so out of place for Herat... it would be 10x nicer than the Marco Polo which when I was there last fall I think was about the best accommodation available in the city. That pic was also uploaded a year ago, I would think that we could find some info on it somewhere by now, I would imagine after spending all that money building it that they would want people to be able to find it! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:46, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

 * Fifteen years later & the Serena site still does not list a hotel in Herat. Pashley (talk) 16:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Bundle up the provinces?
With 34 provinces, Afghanistan is a little too large to swallow at one gulp. Is it possible to group these provinces into 5-7 groups of 3-7 provinces apiece? That'd make a nice geographical hierarchy! --(WT-en) Evan 19:31, 6 December 2006 (EST)

 * Indeed... maybe since there are so few destinations that people are likely to frequent at the moment there isn't even a great need for provincial pages? I think most everything that's worth mentioning or remotely safe to travel to is already linked to from the main Afghanistan page. Maybe a Northern trekking (Afghanistan) or something like that would suffice for Pansjir Valley, Nuristan and the Wakhan Corridor, etc?

 * Oooor... just divide the country up into:
 * Afghanistan/West (Herat, and surrounds),
 * Afghanistan/East (Kabul, Jalalabad, Khyber Pass, Ghazni),
 * Afghanistan/Northwest (Mazar, Balkh and surrounds),
 * Afghanistan/Northeast (mountains, trekking, Kondoz, etc),
 * Afghanistan/South - the south doesn't need a page really since it's highly unlikely anyone will be traveling there soon and Kandahar will already be on the main page... (scratch that, will make a page on second thought) ...thoughts? (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:35, 7 December 2006 (EST)

 * OMG, I think I agree with my own second suggestion... i'm full of energy at the moment so i might plunge forward, if anyone objects speak quickly and loudly...  (WT-en) Cacahuate 06:15, 7 December 2006 (EST)

 * It's great! The only thing is that we don't use sub-pages (Afghanistan/South) for anything but districts of cities. So it should probably be South Afghanistan, West Afghanistan, ... or something similar. --(WT-en) Evan 08:36, 7 December 2006 (EST)

 * Well isn't that sucky... I'll redo it tomorrow, heading out now! (WT-en) Cacahuate 08:52, 7 December 2006 (EST)

 * Ok, renamed the region articles, isIn's for all the destinations to be fixed later... (WT-en) Cacahuate 09:05, 7 December 2006 (EST)

So I've divided the provinces among the 5 region articles, and the relevant ones are listed on those pages - obviously it's not set in stone, if anyone thinks any particular province is better suited to another one of the region articles, by all means fix it... (WT-en) Cacahuate 08:17, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Useful links
Kabul travel article in NY Times - http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/travel/21kabul.html

http://www.mobycapital.com - a very useful tool if you're in Afg or heading there... they gather the day's relevant headlines and send out a daily newsletter, good for staying on top of current events - subscribe on their website (WT-en) - Cacahuate 13:45, 16 February 2007 (EST)

Tora Bora
Where in the hell is Tora Bora!? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 23:46, 22 February 2007 (EST)

 * Wikipedia to the rescue: WikiPedia:Tora Bora. -- (WT-en) Ryan 00:09, 23 February 2007 (EST)
 * I'm looking at that as Eastern Afghanistan. If our divisional system is different please move the images I'm about to add. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:19, 23 February 2007 (EST)

 * When I was a kid I lived in tornado country (Lubbock, Texas). Lubbock was hit by a big tornado in the 70s, and a lot of people still had t-shirts that said on the front, "Where the hell is Lubbock, TX?" and on the back "Everywhere!" The joke being that the tornado had strewn debris all over the place. Was the joke. On the T-shirt. That I saw. As a kid. Uh.

 * Anyways, I'm not sure how that'd apply to Tora Bora, where the armed forces of many nations have been "pounding sand" for more than 5 years, but I might be able to set up a t-shirt stand there and have a good business going. --(WT-en) Evan 07:33, 23 February 2007 (EST)

 * Now, that I've finally read this some comments Cacahaute made finally make sense. Any chance you know how to write the joke in Farsi? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 03:45, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

 * I don't, but I bet (WT-en) Jpatokal does... I would so buy that t-shirt (WT-en) - Cacahuate 03:59, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

 * Ya know, I bet Afghanistan is nicer than the kitchen I'm working in... got a salesman position for me? -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 03:53, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

scary
Really, this is the most scariest review written on this site. I don't think about job as editors should be to scare people or say bad things about a country. I was just there and I can say 50% of it is untrue. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 75.24.182.185 (talk • contribs)

 * Such as what? Our job here is to write a travel guide, including warning about potential risks, as any other travel guide would. The fact that nothing happened to you while in Afghanistan doesn't make it a safe place. It just means that nothing happened to you. I don't think our travel warnings are over the top at all on this article, but if there are specific things you would like to address, feel free to propose some changes/updates, that's what this page is for :) – (WT-en) cacahuate   talk 01:54, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

 * I agree with the IP number, Afghanistan is not as dangerous as you think, unless you are the enemy of Afghanistan (a spy or something). Afghans are known to protect and give asylum to visitors, regardless of their religion, race or nationality. For ages, when people were in need of asylum or protection, they all ran to the region of Afghanistan because here were people that gave shelter and protection to them. A normal person from Afghanistan will never harm a tourist, only criminals are the ones to becareful of, and we know criminals are in every country of the world. About the carrying gun stuff, that will get you locked up and sent to jail for several years. There are laws which prohibits anyone from carrying a weapon in Afghanistan, including a knife. anyone means anyone, including tourists, only the government officers may carry a weapon. The laws in Asia are usually mandatory prison sentence, not the same as western laws, where you get probation for first time offense so becareful of trying to break the laws, especially in any Islamic nation.--(WT-en) Creative 20:22, 12 September 2007 (EDT)

 * One person had said that all Afghans carried rifls in the 1970s, that is a ridiculous statement, in those days people in Afghanistan didn't even know how guns really look like. This person probably saw shepherds in the country side carrying the 1800s black poweder guns in case being attacked by wild animals, he or she assumes that most Afghans were carrying rifles. I can show you very convincing facts that America is about 100 times more dangerous than Afghanistan.--(WT-en) Creative 20:28, 12 September 2007 (EDT)

 * I did not say all, but in the countryside most and in town some. That's what I remember. Most then were indeed black powder weapons. High-end was a bolt action repeater such as WW II Lee Enfield .303; those were quite rare. (WT-en) Pashley 20:40, 12 September 2007 (EDT)

 * Whatever you saw were only few people carrying legal arms, nobody could carry arms illegally, not then and not now. If you want, I can show you the firearm law of Afghanistan from those days. It's legal to carry arms in certain parts of the country but not within the city limits or other populated areas. The firearm must be registered as well as permit issued.--(WT-en) Creative 11:53, 15 September 2007 (EDT)

 * The IP was commenting on the actual article though, not just people's view in general... do you think that the current warnings in the article are not accurate? I think they're pretty good, and not too over the top. I removed the advice to dress locally as this isn't always a better idea... I know people who were harassed in Kabul and accused of being spies and trying too hard to blend in. I also removed the titles altogether for the Koreans, we generally try to be neutral here on hot issues, and their purpose there is debatable... they deny being there on a mission (though I agree with you that they probably were). Anyhow, you've probably heard about the Taliban's new vow to abduct foreigners... they haven't just stipulated that it should be missionaries. I do agree with you that Afg can be safer than many people realize, but people should definitely understand the risks and what to look out for... especially westerners at this particular point in time... it certainly isn't Hawaii. – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 00:15, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

 * The IP was commenting on what he/she read in this discussion in regards to carrying guns while visiting Afghanistan, I was also commenting on the same. The warning on the front of the article is ok, but foreigners trying to carry arms in a foreign country is not ok. First, you will be suspected as a killer or assassin by the local government and it will be very difficult in trying to prove yourself innocent. Second, you are not allowed by law to carry any weapons so you will be jailed. About the 23 Koreans, I saw a special documentry on the NEWS confirming they were Christian missionaries. It's obvious that they will deny this, we didn't expect them to tell the truth. About the clothes, I was trying to explain to avoid wearing brand new clothes but instead take with you your used clothes that you have at home and wear that when you go outside, less people will stare or follow you that way.--(WT-en) Creative 11:53, 15 September 2007 (EDT)

Who invaded?
I just deleted Arabs and Turks from the list of invaders in the article. I don't think either group got that far East, not wit the Persians in between. Commenting here in case someone knows the history better. (WT-en) Pashley 09:10, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

 * Before you delete such kind of information, you should read general history on Afghanistan on Wikipedia or other places. Anyway, I'm expert on the history of Afghanistan, Arabs invaded this country in the 7th century but were defeated by the local Afghan tribes, although Islam was still spread throughout the entire country. Islam was accepted by the Afghan tribes on special conditions (through Loya Jirga) that their local language (Pashto) and culture (Pashtunwali) remain unchanged by the Arab language or Arab culture, in which both parties agreed. You talk about Persians as if they were capable of stopping Islam from spreading east towards India? It took less than 5 years before the entire Persian territories was surrendered to the Arabs. Turks invaded Afghanistan during the 11th century and ruled the area until Mongol invasion, in the 13th century.--(WT-en) Creative 18:10, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Stay safe rant
I have worked extensively on the road in Afghanistan over the last few years both for the military and for private contract companies... whichever idiot said to hire an armed guard has clearly either never been in afghanistan or spent his whole trip in a Kabul hotel... (unless you plan to hire guards from outside the country either from Europe, the US, or South Africa) guards from Afghanistan and neighboring countries are shady at best... I don't even trust the ANP let alone cheaper hires... one day south of Kabul I watched the "company" hired Afghan guards fire up some heroin at 1 in the afternoon!!! on the 5 occasions we came under fire during their care they ran every time... the contract I was under at the time was paid for by an organization that disallowed personal fire arms... I will never work under those stipulations again... the bottom line is either carry a weapon or be willing and at peace with your own death... I mean that with no hyperbole but out of simple pragmatism... so many locals carry guns that you can conduct your work or travel with no strange glances of any kind if you're armed... Ak's and a host of other weapons can be bought in Kabul for peanuts on the dollar... I suggest simply wearing a hand gun and if you don't act any different with it on no one else will... Meekness is "power under control..." you don't have to be aggressive... the gun you wear is in your control to use at your discretion... the gun you don't wear will never protect you... these people don't shoot westerners... they execute them... —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 125.213.207.20 (talk • contribs)

 * Please feel free to plunge forward and add your advice directly to the article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:07, 8 August 2010 (EDT)

Travel agencies
I removed the "tour agencies" section per the Tour policy. While a strong argument could be made that Afghanistan is currently a country where a "tour" is important for safety reasons, the listings that were in the article included two agencies based in Pakistan that seem to simply offer bus tickets, which is clearly against the "no travel agencies" guidelines in the Tour policy, and my guess is that the presence of this section would merely encourage more travel agency listings. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:08, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

 * We had seemed to be making an exception for Afghanistan since it was more of a security issue than a tour guide issue - the first two listed are based in Afghanistan and are (at least were) widely used by those who felt they needed armed drivers escorting them around the country. I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back those two at least, for a while longer –  cacahuate   talk 07:40, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

British or American English for Afghanistan?
Someone just made some changes in the Kabul guide from American to British English. It's true that Afghanistan was somewhat in the British sphere of influence in the 19th century, but right now (until the Taliban recapture the country), it seems to be more in the American sphere of influence. So how should we handle people wanting to enforce British spellings and lingo in articles about Afghanistan? I feel like no-one should be wasting time changing from one form of English to another, most likely, but someone is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Current policy is that where there is no significant English-language history for a locale, the first version of English used becomes the basis for the article. AHeneen (talk) 19:02, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

 * And what is the policy, then, about dealing with edits that change the language version? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:42, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Mobile phone number format
Afghanistan has No two of these are consistent & I am not certain which is correct. Can someone please fix this? Pashley (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * an explanation of the number format -- 70n then 7 digits
 * what is supposed to be an example of that -- 70n and 6 digits
 * several examples of numbers for various networks -- 7n and 7 digits

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Khyber Pass
While it's certainly not recommended as an entry point, reports from last couple of years (from Caravanistan among other sites) suggest the Khyber Pass is officially possible to pass through for foreigners from a technical perspective, the information given may be out of date? 85.255.236.206 20:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Please provide whatever information you have that's as up-to-date as possible. You can always fudge things by saying "The Khyber Pass was open for foreigners as of [date]". Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:56, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

 * There is a Khyber Pass article which may also need updating. Pashley (talk) 23:09, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Mujahideen
I just rolled back an edit that claimed "The Mujahideen would eventually evolve into the Taliban and Al-Qaeda following the collapse of the Soviet Union." My understanding is that Taliban was created by Pakistani intelligence — with CIA approval & mostly Saudi money — mainly to break the power of ex-mujahideen leaders that some called "warlords". Al-Qaeda translate as "the base" and was volunteers from various Arab countries, not Afghan mujahideen.

Whatever the correct account is, I do not think this article needs to go into that much detail. Pashley (talk) 02:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 * What is definitely known is that Osama bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Therefore, in a sense, you can say that at least one faction of the mujahideen eventually became Al-Qaeda.

 * And there was certainly infighting among the mujahideen, so my understanding is that one faction eventually became the Taliban. The mujahideen fighters were trained by the CIA and Pakistan in facilities near the Pakistan-Afganistan border. The dog2 (talk) 03:33, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 * You're probably thinking of the faction led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

 * To my knowledge, the Mujahedeen was a diverse mix of fighters of different origins, not all of them Afghan, but the one thing that united all of them was a belief in Salafi Islam. And there were many different factions within the Mujahedeen, and one Pashtun-dominated faction became the Taliban, while another Arab-dominated faction became Al-Qaeda, and other factions became aligned with various warlords. In fact, China sent Uyghurs to Afghanistan to join the Mujahedeen, and these Uyghurs returned to China radicalised after the fall of the Soviet Union, which led to a surge of terrorist attacks in Xinjiang. The dog2 (talk) 18:47, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Note
What is this note trying to achieve?

''English spellings of Afghan place names vary. For example, Q may replace K as in Qandahar or Qunduz. Kunduz will be seen spelled as Konduz, Qunduz, Qundoz, Qundoze and variations on these. Bamiyan is often spelled as Bamian or Bamyan. Khowst may be spelt as Khost.''

That goes on Wikipedia, not here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Might it be useful to people trying to buy tickets or something? I'm guessing probably not, as they'll likely have to be able to recognize the names in Dari or Pashto or whatever, in Arabic letters. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't let those facts dissuade you from visiting?
What, the fact that the country is rapidly being retaken by the Taliban, with untold thousands killed and injured, is suffering from a drought, and is also unable to effectively address COVID-19 and other threats to public health? If those things don't dissuade you from visiting, aren't you either a very brave and perhaps foolish NGO member, a fighter or an idiot? Shouldn't we at least hide sentences like this for now?

''But don't let those facts dissuade you from visiting! This vast, mountainous country has a lot to offer to the adventurous, thrill-seeking traveller.''

Thrill-seeking meaning death-wishing?

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 * Edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 * This is crazy. I was in Af in the 70s, before all the troubles, loved the place, & would like to go back someday. However, it has not been at all safe to visit since then & we certainly should not be advising anyone to consider going now. Pashley (talk) 00:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It is more than crazy now in August 2021, so thank you for having removed it. FYI, Daily Mail has recently showed a photo and a clip of one such UK "war zone tourist" in the last plane out, who was posting his "I was there" on his Insta.
 * For now, I would change the blurb to:
 * Travelling in (and out of) Afghanistan is impossible (unless you are a Talib or like). Zezen (talk) 12:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There are still the ethnic Pashtuns who cross the border now and then from Pakistan so not impossible. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think there were journalists getting in to report about the events, so seemingly not impossible for westerners either. And now things have changed, but I have no idea what getting in entails. Last I heard they were trying to set up regular commercial flight. Update needed. –LPfi (talk) 09:38, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

"The situation in Afghanistan is highly volatile and traveling in Afghanistan is extremely dangerous"
Maybe i am missing something but haven't the country gotten significantly safer safer the Taliban took over? I think it might be appropriate to tone down the warning unless we can find evidence to support it. Otherwise, this just feels like fear mongering that never got updated after the takeover of Kabul Trade (talk) 23:44, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

 * I'll edit the warning. Comment solicited. Pashley (talk) 01:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Needs updates
There are lot of dead links & things like "as of August 2021" or "attacks by anti-government forces such as the Taliban". I've fixed a few obvious problems, but it really needs someone who knows the current situation to go over it. Pashley (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, there are obvious things to update, but who is traveling to Afghanistan now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Human aid workers (at least the Red Crescent is still working there), Afghans who have left the country and go to see family, and perhaps a few journalists – and perhaps a host of people from international companies (not long ago our article on Bi'r Tawīl gave the impression that you will meet nobody there). We hardly have resources to help them, but hopefully some of them might write about the situation (probably elsewhere). As the information about the country is so scarce, it is hard to know how many travel there, and we risk not to notice when travel there in fact becomes more common, still reporting about 2021. I don't think updating the article should be a priority, but we should try to stay updated on the situation ourselves, noting the most important changes here. –LPfi (talk) 07:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Flights
I don't know if this is reliable, but according to Wikipedia, Ariana Afghan Airlines is still operating international flights into Kabul. The dog2 (talk) 00:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Ariana site shows flights to Istanbul & Ankara, Delhi & Bombay, Doha, Dubai, Islamabad, Jeddah & Riyhad, Moscow, Samarkand, ... Pashley (talk) 06:22, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If they're still active, both per Wikipedia and their website, I don't see why it wouldn't be reliable. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 06:55, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * OK. I seem to have been to hasty in my web search (Swedish authorities seem to use Kam Air despite it being blacklisted, in lack of alternatives). The info on Ariana formerly in the article was from before 2013 (if I remember correctly, at least not new).
 * Very much of the article was (and still is) from those times: see Special:Diff/2052481/4851332; a tidied diff, with the quickbar copied and some standard templates removed, sections and paragraphs moved around, whitespace edits, the Get in warningbox removed and other warningboxes shortened, the Khyber pass warningbox added, addition of a few paragraph stubs and removal of the significant additions to Respect is at Special:Diff/2052481/4854053 (edited at the Graffiti wall).
 * The History, See, Work, Stay safe and Respect sections had been rewritten, as had the lead, and there are some tweaks and additions elsewhere, but I fear most remaining old information has not been checked – note e.g. the "new" highways and the unchanged prices in Get around and connect. –LPfi (talk) 10:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I changed a bunch of info from 2011 and some from 2007 to past tense yesterday, but this outdated info is largely useless and should probably be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed. However, some of it might very well still be true, such as on roads, taxis, minivans etc. It could have changed, but could as well not. I think some of it should be deleted, but not all of it. I know too little to decide. –LPfi (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The prices, at least, would be meaningless. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Afghanistan


text:
Talk:Afghanistani Persian phrasebook

VFD Discussion

 * Redirect?. This article text simply says that it should not exist. Redirect to Persian phrasebook, which already includes Afghanistan. (WT-en) Bill in STL 06:10, 9 August 2010 (EDT)
 * No, Afghan Persian is a dialect which we currently have a phrasebook for: Dari phrasebook. Redirect. (WT-en) AHeneen 02:44, 20 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Redirect to Dari phrasebook. (WT-en) Pashley 06:19, 9 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Delete. "Afghanistani" isn't a word.  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:10, 9 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Right. I'm therefore happy to see it deleted. (WT-en) Pashley 09:42, 9 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Redirect to Dari phrasebook. Afghanistani is the clumsy way of referring to something that is of or pertaining to the nation but not necessarily Pashtuns or Pashto. But even if it were just a misspelling, redirecting would still be preferable, albeit trivial. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:35, 10 August 2010 (EDT)

Result: Redirected. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:53, 18 September 2010 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Afghanistani Persian phrasebook


text:
Talk:Africa

Please salvage the ferry edit
I rolled back a series of edits that introduced information about ferries in a clumsy fashion. Please reintroduce any salvaged information. I have not had time to comb through it. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:05, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
Hey everyone. Why is St Helena not part of the African article? I understand why it is referenced in "Islands of the Atlantic Ocean" but shouldn't it be parented in this article? For example, Bermuda is on the Islands article as well but belongs under Caribbean. Similarly, Azores is mentioned but parented by Portugal (as it should). St Helena is included in the African UN geoscheme. Also, flights/boats to St Helena arrive from Africa (with a few month+ exceptions that start from South America). Marathonian (talk) 21:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Lagos
Surely Lagos should be on the list of important cities. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk  |  contributions ) 20:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Talk:Africa/Archive 2013-2018 is relevant to this discussion. I will leave it up to you whether to unarchive the thread for the purpose of this discussion, but that would be a reasonable thing to do if you think it would be helpful. There's also an earlier discussion, Talk:Africa/Archive 2004-2012. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Accra description
In the archives, Talk:Africa/Archive_2013-2018 it is said that "Accra is well-visited enough to stay. I have nothing to say about that, but I think it is odd that the one-liner just says it is the capital of Ghana, and the article's Understand adds little to that, but it having a quite long history (no mentioning whether anything from that history remains). Why is it well-visited? What would be the reason for me to go there? --LPfi (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

 * There are some sights mentioned in Accra. I couldn't say what's most worthwhile to do there, though, as I haven't been there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Some of the descriptions hint they really are worthwhile, but only if they are in a destination that is described as important in itself. Some museum descriptions could be used in a hamlet's local museum, and there the "a variety of instruments and tools used in various rituals" would be interpreted quite differently. I think something about the long history and importance of the city being reflected in the museums and in the cityscape (or the like) should be added to the Understand – if it is true. --LPfi (talk) 10:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:47, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Bloukrans Bridge-001.jpg

 * Do we really need this photo here? It's in the Tsitsikamma article. Anyway, it'll be deleted from Commons, so we'll have to make a decision about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

 * The Commons page on freedom of panorama in South Africa talks only about artistic works. I am not convinced this bridge is covered by such general wording. There have not yet been any opinions from people who might understand SA copyright law. Unless the photo is deemed a speedy deletion candidate, the request will be open at least to the 27th. –LPfi (talk) 08:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

 * True, this is a work of utilitarian architecture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Deleted without further comment ("per nomination"). I assume the admin didn't have time to check further on South-African copyright. Do we want to make a fuzz? –LPfi (talk) 18:48, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

 * I now asked at Commons:User talk:Missvain. –LPfi (talk) 09:35, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

 * It seems Liuxinuyu thinks that French copyright law also applies in ZA based on their comments. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:39, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Hardly. I suppose they just gave France as an example of hoe copyright can work, although they worded it badly. –LPfi (talk) 12:54, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Cape Verde has gone missing
Unless my eyesight is worse than I thought, Cape Verde is missing from the map. This oversight is unfair to the country. (For comparison, São Tomé and Príncipe, another African island nation that's smaller and less populous, is included on the map.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:30, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

 * @Nelson Ricardo 2500 It also seems that the Canary Islands has also gone missing too. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * True, but the Canaries are part of Spain, so for travel purposes, they're in Europe. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:52, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose so, but we could also argue with that rationale that Wallis and Futuna are a part of Europe. However, given the breadcrumb structure, I agree with you. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:06, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Comoros spelt wrong on static map
It says comores Tai123.123 (talk) 06:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

 * That's the French-language spelling which is official in that country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * But this is the English Wikivoyage, so we should be using the English spelling and it should be spelled Comoros, not the French Comores. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:12, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, the static map. Yes, that should be changed for en.voy. I had misread that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not an Inkscape expert, so I can't fix this but I believe might know how to fix that as they've made numerous maps before with Inkscape. I might try using Inkscape when my new computer arrives next week though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:43, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, that shouldn’t be difficult to correct. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:12, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't find an SVG version of the file including the islands. Shaundd, as the last person to edit the .png file on Commons, do you have this file? --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 12:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The map is a makeshift version made as the East African Islands became a separate region. /Yvwv (talk) 13:44, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Last edit in September, hope they reply. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I updated the PNG map at Commons, although needed to refresh my page for it to replace the old map.
 * I don't think there is a SVG version. I'm not sure what happened to it but I couldn't find one. -Shaundd (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much Tai123.123 (talk) 19:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you Shaundd. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:09, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Abuja
i suggested that Abuja supposed to be in the list of important states in Africa. Bello Na'im (talk) 17:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

 * What list? An article about a continent is not the place to mention individual states within countries. If you mean important cities, how could it possibly be one of the 9 most important cities in Africa, when Lagos is so much larger? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Even Lagos isn't listed, and the Nigerian capital has little significance on a continental scale. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 22:09, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

West African Islands
user:Sbb1413 has created a new region stretching from Cape Verde to St Helena. I think we should gave a discussion about this. I don't think this is intuitive or useful for travellers. For example, is it possible to travel between the islands listed in this region without flying back to the continent (if you don't have your own boat)? Ground Zero (talk) 10:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, think Cabo Verde + STP should be breadcrumbed to where they were. What I meant in the original proposal was to categorise St Helena, etc. directly under Africa and not under a different subregion, akin to how St Pierre and Miquelon is categorised under North America. I merely added the article before because a) it was there; b) I assumed there was another proposal which I missed hence its creation. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 10:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you link to that discussion? I missed it Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 10:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Talk:Islands of the Atlantic Ocean. I thought there was another one that led to the creation of WAI, but it seems not. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 10:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * At first glance I don't think this proposed change to the Africa regionalization makes sense, though I'm open to hearing arguments in favor of it. We shouldn't make major changes to the continent's regionalization without consensus here at the relevant talk page. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Lagos
I propose adding Lagos to the list of cities. It is the most populous city on the continent with well over 20 million residents. It is also Nigeria's economic center. Mrkstvns (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

 * This has come up several times before; see previous discussion of same title and others linked from that. We don't necessarily have to be bound by those earlier decisions in perpetuity, but they might inform the current proposal.
 * (NB: We can't add Lagos without also selecting a city to remove, per WV:7±2).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Lagos may be the continent's largest city and the economic centre, but it is not a very appealling destination for travellers. Ibadan or Abuja are much better Nigerian destinations than Lagos. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 21:58, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And to clarify, I prefer all of the nine destinations listed over Lagos. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 08:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't have an opinion on this until I know what city you intend to remove from the list in order to add Lagos. Removing Cape Town, for example, would be ridiculous given how many international visitors it attracts compared to Lagos. Ground Zero (talk) 01:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The only city of the 9 now listed that seems open to debate is Luanda, but it's been debated before, so to whatever extent the points previously made may still be valid, they would be relevant: Talk:Africa/Archive 2013-2018, plus much earlier discussion in Talk:Africa/Archive 2004-2012. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Africa


text:
Talk:African wildlife

I'm almost certain that the "unknown bird" is a Crowned Plover (Vanellus coronatus).

Does this page really belong here? The title "African flora and fauna" is a HUGE subject. I have a whole shelf of books that barely scratch the surface. The pictures seem to be of "KNP flora and fauna" which could be a subpage of KNP.

Does Wikivoyage want to get into the flora and fauna area?

--(WT-en) Nzpcmad 17:54, 13 Oct 2004 (EDT)

 * Every African guidebook I've ever seen has a section on the animals you're likely to encounter on a safari, so I think Wikivoyage can and should copy that. We don't need to document every obscure species of jungle beetle though. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:20, 13 Oct 2004 (EDT)

 * This page was created thanks to discussion on Talk:Kruger National Park and was originally a subsection (not subpage) of that page, hence the frequent references to KNP. The discussion on that page figured that having one page with African flora and fauna would be easier than having every park's entry talk about how elephants get near the cars etc etc.

 * I agree that this page's frequent references to KNP ought to be changed to be more general, but presumably that's WIP. -- (WT-en) Hypatia 04:59, 14 Oct 2004 (EDT)

The page seems to be a big success with more than 30 visitors and 4 talk contributions on its first day. Obviously it was started as a collection of animals from the Kruger National Park KNP in South Africa and all references of that should be deleted unless animals can be only spotted there. References to particular region such as the rift valley and its soda lakes which support mainly flamingos are probably adequate. The page can be well justified in a travel guide for African national parks, because the most interesting things to see are very likely to be animals and plants. Obviously the Amboseli National Park or Rift valley in Kenya have some nice geographical features as well.

(WT-en) Jens 10:27, 16 Oct 2004

Move the "National Parks"?
Does the long list of National Parks really belong on this page? Couldn't there be another one for it? -- (WT-en) DanielC 10:03, 12 Jun 2005 (EDT)

 * There is already another list. See African National Parks. I think we could do with a link only. (WV-en) Felix 17:01 (GMT), 12/June/2005

Chimpanzees and Gorillas?
Perhaps a section on chimps and gorillas could be added as gorilla and chimp tracking safaris, albeit costly ones, exist, and it's always possible to stumble upon anything on one's one.

 * http://www.responsibletravel.com/Trip/Trip100054.htm
 * http://www.uyaphi.com/uganda/safari/express-6days.htm
 * http://www.adventurecenter.com/Guerba/frame_uec.htm

67.23.48.38 17:47, 10 Dec 2005 (EST)

"Red hornbill" incorrect
I don't have time to fix it right now, but the "red hornbill" pictured are actually southern ground hornbill, not red-billed hornbill.

—The preceding comment was added by Lengau (talk • contribs)

 * We could simply change the caption. I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Caption changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

 * The file name should also be changed (on Commons). Is there a species or genus called red-horned hornbill, or it is a less specific name, perhaps covering also the one imaged? --LPfi (talk) 05:55, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Thanks folks. I've requested a rename on Commons and I'll update the page now with better info. Lengau (talk) 22:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

 * I've updated the page now to separate hornbills from ground hornbills. If someone could take a look I'd really appreciate it. Lengau (talk) 23:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Format
This article has a very strange, irregular format. Apparently, in order to have photos of every type of wildlife on the page, there are huge areas of white space between every entry. I disapprove, and would suggest normal bulleted entries and fewer photos. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Look at articles like United States National Parks and Indian national parks and wildlife sanctuaries. No attempt is made to include photographs of every park and wildlife sanctuary, and even so, they are image-heavy and arguably too much so. Keep in mind Image policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:35, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Too many images
There are too many images here that violate Image policy. Which ones should go? -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:24, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

 * There's also a ridiculous amount of extra white space on the left that should be deleted. Images with small animals in thumbnail view like the one with the wild dogs are easy to remove, but I think we should get rid of all the extra space and just remove images randomly, for the most part, unless someone really wants to take time with this task. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah I removed all the  tags yesterday from the Mammals section, but if there are no other objections, I'll implement your suggestion next week. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

 * I think images can be removed non-randomly. We could link all animals to Wikipedia articles and indirectly to Commons galleries or sections (using ), so then the point wouldn't be to show the individual species, but to have a varied selection of good images. I think that in such use, images of wildlife on the savanna or in a bush – i.e. the viewing experience – is more important than having a portrait photos of animals. I won't do it now, but could do it in a few weeks. –LPfi (talk) 07:16, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Why would we want to have such wholesale violations of Links to Wikipedia? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

 * We commonly include links to Wikipedia in listings. Here the equivalent are the animals. We don't want to include encyclopedic descriptions of them, but readers may want to have them. That way we can concentrate on what is important for us, such as where you can find them (Wikipedia might tell where they live, but that's not the same thing). –LPfi (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * But these aren't listings. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * LPfi, could you please explain why we'll ever have to use listings or markers in this article? (unless we're markering destinations, but that's beside the point) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 * We don't want to copy the Wikipedia articles to here, but there is much in the Wikipedia articles that a reader of this article might find valuable (most of the Wikipedia content, I'd guess, for some of the animals presented). At the moment there is not even any links to related articles or categories at Wikipedia and Commons (I assume they don't have a by-continent article like this), so the reader needs to know those sister sites well to access the information.

 * On the other hand, while destination articles presents attractions, with links to Wikipedia if available, this article presents animals, but because the article isn't in the form of a list of listings, the links aren't allowed. By using markers for the links we would keep to our standards more or less, and I think we would be doing our readers a favour.

 * What reason is there not to allow such links (other than that it formally is against the external links policy until we degrade the article to a list of listings)?
 * –LPfi (talk) 13:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Animals aren't places. Why would we want a marker for anything that's not a place? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 * We don't want a marker on the map, but the functionality of . –LPfi (talk) 20:39, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 * I really think we can leave readers to their own devices if they want to find encyclopedic information about animals. Do you really want to establish a precedent of linking to dozens of Wikipedia articles about animals and plants in most any article about a park, rural area and beyond? If so: (a) what about historical periods, artistic terms and any of hundreds of other potentially interesting topics with articles on Wikipedia; and (b) I think you need to restart discussion at Links to Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Using markers to dodge the Links to Wikipedia policy honestly seems like cheating the policy IMO. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:52, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think one should dodge the policy when that serves the traveller and the site, but if it does not in this case, then let's leave the links out. I rest my case. –LPfi (talk) 12:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Gorilla advice
I removed the link to Wanderlust gorilla advice. It seems to be against our guidelines (only link official sites), and some of the listed places seem to be better off without tourists.

Somebody still might want to check their advice and perhaps add sections/listings to relevant region and city articles.

–LPfi (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:African wildlife


text:
Talk:African national parks

The UNESCO World Heritage List includes many African parks and several countries not currently listed here. Cameroon and Democratic Republic of the Congo are examples. Someone could mine that list to improve this one. (WT-en) Pashley 21:30, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Capitalization within title
As "national park" by itself wouldn't normally be capitalized because the term is not itself a proper name, would there be any objection to renaming this article African national parks? Is so, why? I plan on making the change quite soon if no objection is stated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No objections raised. Done. Nurg (talk) 10:13, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Red links
This article has a lot of red links — way too many, and I don't know whether the national parks the red links are for should have articles or not. Would everyone be okay with taking out the links that are broken? Selfie City (talk) 00:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

 * I suppose any national park is worth an article, they are destinations more or less by definition. I'd agree Namibia and Zambia seem to have too many red links. For them the most important ones should be chosen, and more added only when those are created (and probably a National parks of Namibia etc. should be created at some point). For the other countries the number of redlinks is moderate, and redlinks just mean there is work to do. --LPfi (talk) 10:21, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Yes. Rail travel in Africa was a somewhat similar (although much worse) situation and that was redirected to Africa. Also, how does the definition of a national park in these countries compare? Sometimes, parks are intended for tourists while in others they are more intended to protect flora and fauna. Of course, the two overlap, but you get what I mean. Selfie City (talk) 16:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

 * I do not know the terms in the domestic languages, but I've understood a national park is specifically intended to also cater for visitors. There are nature reserves for where protection is the only motive (or the one that counts in decisions). Anyway, where half the parks have articles, I have no reason to doubt also the others are interesting destinations – with the overall lack of coverage in most of Africa, I suppose parks with articles are truly outstanding. --LPfi (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

 * That is quite likely, since Africa has plenty of great scenery, although I've never been there. Anyway, I've got it in my projects list now. Selfie City (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

 * So I've done some work. I have removed the red links with no descriptions in Namibia and some of the red links in the Zambia one. Selfie City (talk) 21:50, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

 * African national parks should probably be broken up into regional areas matching Africa - General overview of African national parks with a representative number of important parks with sub regional pages with a more complete list -- as far as red links go - just means there is no article and would probably be nice to create articles for them and indicates to me African articles might need more attention? Time for an Expedition? - don't like red links then take out the brackets :) -- I put in wikidata ids for those markers missing them (quite a few) and adding text as time permits. Also have been doing same for markers in African Regions. Just a thought - Cheers! -- Matroc (talk) 06:58, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Réunion NP
I added the park, but was the scope of the article only covering the parks from countries that are on the mainland, or are French departments like Réunion also within the scope? -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:32, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

This article smells of ethnocentrism
Rant begins...

Okay, so I'm aware: the title is harsh, but it is. I do apologise if this was not the creator's intent, but the creator was going off stereotypes, "fascinated" by African wildlife and nature but Africa is not one country – it really does sadden me that many do treat it as one which is why I've found this whole article problematic since I first encountered it.

Now why does that matter? Because this article essentially goes off those stereotypes, ignoring that there is no single parks authority that manages these parks. Why? Back to my original point; this article treats Africa as one country. Ask yourself, would you ever support articles like Asian national parks or an Oceanian national parks? Anyone reading this will say no to that – so why Africa then? I will add that the French Wikivoyage has an article on fr:Parcs nationaux d'Océanie (translates to National parks of Oceania), which has swathes of redlinks and doesn't help travellers.

What more, this article isn't even complete. Right now, this article only has parks between Ethiopia and South Africa, plus Nigerian national parks that were created during the first expedition just over a year ago which I added. Other than that, there's lone parks sitting in the Niger, Central African Republic and the Réunion sections, but that's about it. Even within those that are mentioned, many of them are redlinks. I know I've rambled on a lot, so I'll end it there.

End of rant.

-- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I don't agree. I could have started an article on European national parks, only that I happen to know the Nordic ones so much better than the rest that it didn't make sense. Of course the article isn't complete. If it were, it should be split up by country (or whatever). People might have heard about Serengeti without remembering in what country it was, and might remember the spelling wrong, so they wouldn't find it by a search. Or people might want to have a look for parks they don't know about, without having a clear picture about what is found in different parts of Africa. An article like this makes sense for such use cases. Of course, we should cover the most important parks from all of the continent, not just the east (+Nigeria with surroundings), but that a common problem with wikis.

 * The article is now just a list. For countries with several parks listed, it would make sense to give a general description also for the country in general, that's eight countries at the moment. We should probably at least have a link to Kenya, South Africa and similar country article sections where they exist. These sections would need a lot of improvement and in many cases a separate article should be created. But I don't think that is about ethnocentrism; it is about our lack of editors with the needed knowledge.

 * –LPfi (talk) 12:59, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Coming back to this, are there any objections to splitting off some content into their own articles? Some like ZA's national parks could definitely warrant a topic article of its own. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * But that leaves a question on what to do for places with only one or two national parks. For some, such as Réunion, the park can be mentioned in a French national parks article, but that doesn't solve the issue for others (like Lesotho). SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:05, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

 * They could warrant articles of their own, but don't remove the most interesting countries. Instead, write a summary here. If that summary is about as long as some five-parks-without-running-text country sections, that'd probably be enough to have people click the link to the article proper. The summary can be written before the article, it would still be useful. In the long run, countries with one or two parks – or without any – could get such a summary too. Anyway, at this stage I think one should concentrate on adding real content; tweaking the format can be done later. –LPfi (talk) 13:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * At least, can we move this to National parks in Africa? There is no one national parks department that manages all national parks in the continent. This would bring it in line with National parks in Australia, which also has no one universal national parks department managing all parks. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 08:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I leave that judgement to native speakers. –LPfi (talk) 11:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:African national parks


text:
Talk:Afsluitdijk

This article is about the closure dike, which is visited by busloads of tourists every day and has its own gift shop and is therefore IMHO an attraction. It is also not next to any major cities. -- (WT-en) JR

Vote for Deletion
''The following discussion has been moved from Project:Votes for deletion as no consensus to delete this article has been reached. -- (WT-en) Huttite 06:35, 26 Jun 2005 (EDT)''

 * Afsluitdijk. This appears to be a body of water article, as per -- (WT-en) Hypatia 15:52, 14 Dec 2004 (EST)

 * Keep. Article is, perhaps, about an attraction - the closure dike - rather than a destination. Needs to be incorporated into a larger article about North Holland or Friesland and redirected. Keep until this is done. -- (WT-en) Huttite 03:58, 2 Jan 2005 (EST)

Afsluitdijk

 * Delete - Not an article --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 10:56, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
 * This article has already gone through the VFD process - see Talk:Afsluitdijk. There wasn't a lot of comment at the time, so we may want to re-examine this one (in which case I don't have an opinion either way). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:57, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Yeah, let's merge and redirect this as a famous attraction into North Holland (picked because that end of the dijk is closer to Amsterdam, and therefore more likely to be seen first by tourists). - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:26, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Outcome: Merged and redirected to North-Holland --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 04:38, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Afsluitdijk


text:
Talk:Afytos

Copyvio?
Text appears to be identical to http://iguide.travel/Athytos by 85.73.148.188 11:43, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

originally uploaded to Wikivoyage 17:43, 24 August 2007 85.73.148.188

Appears to be same author uploading to two sites? If so should be OK (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 08:54, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Looks like iguide just re-uses wikivoyage articles, so not likely to be a problem either way. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 09:34, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

title: Talk:Afytos


text:
Talk:Agadir

Alternative banner for this article?
I have previously created an alternative banner for this article (which was initially created for the parallel article at the Hebrew Wikivoyage, but I decided to suggest we'll use it here at the English Wikivoyage article as well). Which banner do you prefer that we'll use on the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Neither banner is unique, but the new banner is better. Ground Zero (talk) 13:43, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Inclined to support the new banner. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 13:44, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Agadir


text:
Talk:Agana Heights

I have lived in Agana Heights in the 80s, and is beautiful. Looking forward to maybe coming back to Guam. Thank you. Robin

title: Talk:Agana Heights


text:
Talk:Aggressive dogs

Vote for Deletion?

 * Are you sure this topic is needed for travel? Dogs seem to be the same everywhere in the world, and I don't need any special information for dogs when I travel. (WT-en) chinzh 08:18, 25 January 2009 (EST)

 * I'm sorry, I must be missing something here, because I find your comment unhelpful to say the least. I started this article after I was chased 3 times in 3 days by packs of dogs while I was out running in the Caribbean where I'm currently travelling. I don't own a dog, don't have much experience of dogs, and, frankly, find it rather frightening to have several of them running after me, snarling and snapping so close at my heels that I can feel their breath on my ankles. This is a common problem when travelling; I experienced similar problems in Asia and have a friend who cycled the length of South America and said he was frequently attacked by dogs too. Neither of us had any idea as to what the proper way to react was. We'd both tried several approaches; from running away (not good as I have found by bitter experience) or standing still, to throwing stones and shouting, none of which was entirely reliable. I trawled the web searching for articles and couldn't find anything specific to travelling and hence started this article. Your point about dogs being the same everywhere is not true either. The dogs you encounter in most developed countries usually have owners, are used to being controlled by people and often respond to verbal commands. Many of the dogs you meet whilst travelling are largely wild, are running loose in the streets and don't respond to verbal commands, so you need to understand something about dog psychology in order to try and control them. If you have some magic formula for dealing with dogs, then don't delete this article; please add the obviously impressive techniques you have on how to deal with them to it, so that others can benefit from your knowledge. I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant - and I admit that it probably is - but there's a very good reason for it. I'm currently sat in an internet cafe and have at least one pack of aggressive dogs to walk past before I can get back to my room, so this is still a rather pertinent issue for me... (WT-en) Linucks 22:07, 25 January 2009 (EST)

 * I like the idea of this article actually. Dog issues are not actually the same everywhere in the world, and many travellers from English speaking countries have never been anywhere that has problems with packs of strays. I've certainly run into the problem before, and witnessed other travellers deal with it poorly. I think giving some general information on dealing with the issue here in a travel topic is a good idea, much better than including all the same advice in every article for every place which has such problems. (WT-en) Texugo 23:45, 25 January 2009 (EST)

 * Well, my first concern was that dealing with aggressive dogs' may be too narrow for a topic, but I think that it may be more suitable if this was a subset of a larger article on dealing with other dangerous animals like bees, bears etc., so the title should be tweaked a bit, and allow room for other content. Any comments? (WT-en) chinzh 09:04, 26 January 2009 (EST)

 * Thiat could be a good idea. I guess there's a danger that an article that covers every potentially dangerous animal that you're likely to meet whilst travelling could become rather long, particularly if theres a reasonable amount of information about each one. However, having a single article covering all animals might make less experienced wiki users more likely to add information they might have then if they have to start a new page. Personally I don't have a strong preference on this, so please change the title as you see fit, just please don't delete it! :-) This probably isn't the place to raise this, but would it be an idea to place a link to the Travel topics section in the navigation bar to make it more obvious that it exists? (WT-en) Linucks 09:59, 26 January 2009 (EST)

 * I've seen this article on Mosquitoes, so maybe this article can work on its own. Maybe it will be useful to expand the article and include information, for example:
 * Where such dogs are most likely to be found (in the wild, slums, etc?)
 * Any concerns I may have (and who may I contact) if I'm so unlucky to be bitten by a dog (eg. rabies and how I can deal with it in the short/long term).
 * Is there any discernible way that I can tell an aggressive dog from a docile one before it starts attacking? Thanks! (WT-en) chinzh 21:56, 27 January 2009 (EST)

Moved from article
NB - this article needs to be edited by someone who understands dogs! I'm not a dog owner, just someone who has frequently had to deal with aggressive dogs while travelling and is looking for tips on how to deal with them - something I'm sure other travellers will find useful! There is lots of information on the web for dog owners on how to control their dogs, but not much on dealing with strange dogs as a traveller. I've culled this information from the following sites - these are not 'primary' sources, so I've no idea how good the advice is, but I'm hoping someone else can clean this up:

 * Yup, I think this is worth keeping as well. Here's a WikiHow article on the topic as well: http://www.wikihow.com/Handle-a-Dog-Attack (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:40, 26 January 2009 (EST)

Agressive Animals
Is there a reason why this needs its own page? Should this just be moved over to aggressive animals? --Lumpytrout (talk) 12:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aggressive dogs


text:
Talk:Agra

Are you really going all the way to India to eat in a Pizza Hut? Come on, let's be serious! I'm not saying it can't be mentioned, but I'd suggest not in first place. I have been to Agra, I have eaten in several places where they serve local food and I haven't had food poisoning. I do regret not remembering the names of those places, otherwise I would have immediately put them right there in the article. (Just to be honest, I did get food poisoning in Jaisalmer.) But then, you know what they say: If you haven't been sick in India, you haven't been in India. (WT-en) DhDh 12:54, 9 Dec 2003 (PST)

I'm real serious. The place is an icon in Agra. I'll add some places too (I had some great food at Zorba and another kinda fancy places). But I'm serious about Pizza Hut, it's like the Baskin and Robins (US ice cream chain) in Kathmandu-- people were talking about it in Varinasse too. After 5 months of dhaal and rice, pizza has it's place. Funny, I'd really _never_ go to Pizza Hut anywhere else... but anyway, let's both try and find some more places to recommend, but I really think PH deserves a spot. (WT-en) Majnoona

---

It is news to me that drinking is illegal in Agra; the last time I went there (a few months ago), every second shop appeared to be a local or "foreign" liquor store.... (WT-en) Schizoid 03:03, Feb 28, 2004 (EST)

Copyvio rollback
At least some of this was obvious copyvios, so I reverted the lot to be safe. Sigh. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:48, 24 February 2007 (EST)

I just took out a bunch more. (WT-en) Pashley 12:51, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

Services to Agra Airport
I pity the fool who trusts Indian Airlines' route map. Try the schedule lookup instead: there are zero (0) flights from Agra to anywhere. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:21, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Nuke
Would anyone mind if a dropped a nuke in the vicinity of the sleep section? that yellow page style isn't really helping us, and I hate to encourage listings like these - getting rid of them, and beefing up a few listing to how we like em', might help future spammers to at least include basic information. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:40, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

 * It is about time someone did. Probably several other sections too. (WT-en) Pashley 01:43, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

 * Kill 'em with FIRE! (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:29, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

OK, so I pretended to be a vengeful Pakistani Taliban for a while, and dropped a small tactical nuke on Agra, hope it helps, and have taken some of the pesty touts with it in the process. Can anyone find a way to rephrase/incorporate the below blurb? or should we just leave it. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:02, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

In Addition to that there are certain other points which one should take care -
 * 1) - You can hire a camel-cart on negotiations basis (the price should not exceed 50 INR)to reach Taj Mahal compound from Taxi Stand or Parking.
 * 2) - Never buy anything from the shop the taxi drivers or cart pullers take you to, you are likely to be over charged.
 * 3) - If you are 2 persons, then let 1 person go directly to fetch tickets and other person to stand in the line. However, there is a condition, if you are a foreigner, then you will easily get entry in Taj, but if Indian, then you have to stand in endless queue, so stand your second partner in the Q.
 * 4) - As with most attractions, there are swindlers all around Taj, they will prompt you for easy entry in Taj, but unless you want to get cheated, they re best avoided.
 * 5) - Food around Taj is very costly, specially for Indians, so please carry your own food around, which you can only take when out of Taj, no eatable is permitted inside Taj, which makes sense.
 * 6) - You can't take any tobacco products, eatables, anything which can be a potential weapon.

Taj
I just deleted a lot of copyright violation text that was misplaced in the Lede.

 * Taj Mahal's original name was Tejo Mahalaya built by Rajputs (Warriors)of Agra. The world has been duped with corrupt name and false history of Taj Mahal. Taj Mahal is not Queen Mumtaz's tomb but an ancient Hindu temple palace of Lord Shiva (then known as Tejo Mahalaya). The Shiva temple palace was usurped by Shah Jahan from then Maharaja of Jaipur, Jai Singh. In his own court chronicle, Badshahnama.

 * Shah Jahan admits that an exceptionally beautiful grand mansion in Agra was taken from Jai SIngh for Mumtaz's burial. The ex-Maharaja of Jaipur still retains in his secret collection two orders from Shah Jahan for surrendering the Taj building. Using captured temples and mansions, as a burial place ! for dead courtiers and royalty was a common practice among Muslim for example, Humayun,Akbar, Etmud-ud-Daula and Safdarjung are all buried in such mansions. rulers.
 * The term "Mahal" has never been used for a building in any Muslim countries from Afghanisthan to Algeria. "The unusual explanation that the term Taj Mahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal was illogical in atleast two respects. Firstly, her name was never Mumtaz Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani," he writes. Secondly, one cannot omit the first three letters 'Mum' from a woman's name to derive the remainder as the name for the building."Taj Mahal, he claims, is a corrupt version of Tejo Mahalaya, or Lord Shiva's Palace. The love story of Mumtaz and Shah Jahan is a fairy tale created by court sycophants, blundering historians and sloppy archaeologists. Not a single royal chronicle of Shah Jahan's time corroborates the love story.

 * The Taj Mahal predates Shah Jahan's era, and was a temple dedicated to Shiva, worshipped by Rajputs of Agra city. For example, Prof. Marvin Miller of New York took a few samples from the riverside doorway of the Taj. Also visit http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3379388167850403569# Carbon dating tests revealed that the door was 300 years older than Shah Jahan. European traveler Johan Albert Mandelslo,who visited Agra in 1638 (only seven years after Mumtaz's death), describes the life of the city in his memoirs. But he makes no reference to the Taj Mahal being built. The writings of Peter Mundy, an English visitor to Agra within a year of Mumtaz's death, also suggest the Taj was a noteworthy building well before Shah Jahan's time. Many rooms in the Taj ! Mahal have remained sealed since Shah Jahan's time and are still inaccessible to the public. It is believed that it contains a headless statue of Lord Shiva and other objects commonly used for worship rituals in Hindu temples.

 * Prof. P. N. Oak was the one who challanged it first and then [Prof. Marvin Miller] of New York brought various evidences for the same. Prof. Oak wrote a book on it but fearing political backlash, Indira Gandhi's government tried to have Prof. Oak's book withdrawn from the bookstores, and threatened the Indian publisher of the first edition dire consequences.

The notion that accepted history is false and the Taj was originally a Shiva temple needs at most a one-line mention in the section on the Taj. I'd say even that is unnecessary. What do others think? (WT-en) Pashley 21:37, 17 September 2010 (EDT)

Here's Wikipedia on the main proponent of this theory. (WT-en) Pashley 01:14, 18 September 2010 (EDT)

 * I'd say let's keep this all out — the main proponent of the theory is seen as a "crackpot" in his native country according to Wikipedia article you linked above. – (WT-en) Vidimian 06:37, 18 September 2010 (EDT)

Stunning?
A recent edit took out the first sentence of this, citing touting & words to avoid.
 * Taj Mahal is also utterly stunning under a full moon. However, the night view is likely not worth spending the money as the visitors are kept far from the Taj Mahal (nearly 200 metres away) and there is not sufficient light for viewing or photography.

I understand why this was deleted, but I still object. I've seen the Taj under a full moon and "utterly stunning" strikes me as a correct, factual description. I want to just revert, but I'd compromise on something like:
 * The Taj looks quite different under a full moon than by day, extremely beautiful and one of the most romantic sights on Earth. However, ....

Other opinions? Pashley (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * yeah, I think "utterly stunning" very very off-WV:Tone and WV:Don't tout, and "stunning" is indeed listed among them Words to avoid. However, I understand your point, and the Taj Mahal's fame as a touristic attraction merits some hype, yes. Ibaman (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, otherwise cliched words are really true. The Taj is one of the most famous buildings on Earth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Agra


text:
Talk:Agritourism

A Rough Outline
This is the beginning of an overlooked area of tourism on Wikivoyage, which is funny considering it represents a worldwide phenomenon and a multi-billion dollar industry. Please help me add some actual content to this topic. Thanks! (WT-en) WineCountryInn 00:54, 14 January 2009 (EST)

Links
In my first pass through this travel topic, I am scrounging the Internet for interesting primary source agritourism sites and museums. To avoid the appearance of "link spam," my second pass through will format with addresses, phone numbers, even directions if I can swing it. I'm adding descriptions wherever I can. I am trying to take a global perspective on what I link and write about, so that the article doesn't focus solely on North America. If you know of an interesting agritourism web site or museum, please add it to the article! (WT-en) WineCountryInn 16:55, 16 January 2009 (EST)

interesting
never heard of it! watching to see how this develops, keep up the good work :) – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 22:43, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Farm and Farmer Field Trips
One area of Agritourism that is possibly missing is the role that Farm Field Trips plays in educating the Farmer, by seeing how things are done elsewhere in the world. I know that New Zealand farms host visits from overseas farming organisations and vice versa. You also have farm stays (like home stays on a farm) as well as farm work, such as fruitpicking and other harvesting casual or full time work and even migrant labour schemes for farm workers. Perhaps not quite agritourism, but agritravel?

Also, in New Zealand and Australia, the annual Agricultural and Pastural (A&P) Show day has become an event where town meets country. While a number of other rural events, such as racehorse auctions, and field days are also notable events. In a country where the the price of milk is as important to the economy as that of oil, Agritourism can be big business, too, for the farmer harvesting that tourist dollar. Winery tours and roadside produce stalls are a good reason to get out of town and buy direct from the producer. - (WT-en) Huttite 07:08, 26 January 2009 (EST)

 * Thanks for the feedback! I think there's a place for both your suggestions in the article. I'll add the (A&P) to the Events section. And there's a home for agritravel here, too. While this site largely focuses on leisure travel, we do have business travel as a travel topic. And besides, when you need information on a destination, there's no differentiation on how you're traveling. Travel is travel. I think I can put Farm Field Trips in a "Learn" section. I'll work on it in the evenings and weekends. (This article is my fun "hobby" contribution). :) (WT-en) WineCountryInn 11:25, 26 January 2009 (EST)

Additions?
WOOF is a worldwide volunteer on organic farms program. I do not know details. There's a link in Making a difference.

Many countries have some sort of "working holiday" visa. Here's a link to Australia's. Some travellers use these plus agricultural jobs to see the world. (WT-en) Pashley 09:30, 17 February 2009 (EST)

 * Did you mean WWOOF? I think I already have them listed in the Farms section. I will look into the "working holida" visa, I know nothing about it and it sounds like it could be a nice addition to the article. Thanks. (WT-en) WineCountryInn 13:13, 17 February 2009 (EST)

Content
I don't think specific attractions/farms belong here. It's fine as it is now, but it has a potential to become really unwieldy if more people chips in on this guide (For rare categories where there are only a few globally it's probably OK). Good descriptions of the different categories (as llama farms, Orchards and Fish farms etc.) without the individual listings is properly a better way to go, if you want to end up with high quality article. Listing Regional/country associations is fine and should stay and be expanded. Just a peaceful suggestion and my two cents chipped in. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:42, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * Hi Sertmann! I see your point. But unlike, say, a scuba diving article, I doubt agritourism will ever become unwieldy because some of this information is so gosh darned obscure. It took me 30-40 minutes just to track down some of these individual listings. I don't think the article will be overwhelmed with asparagus museum listings; there simply aren't that many of them. :) But if the article starts to veer towards a "yellow pages" directory, then I agree, it's time to reassess. (WT-en) WineCountryInn 13:08, 17 February 2009 (EST)

Usable?
There's a lot of information in this article now. Do you disagree that it's no longer an Outline but Usable? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Agritourism association links
Not sure if we need these links for every single US state and Canadian province. We don't have these links for most countries. They seem to just accentuate bias. The article will become too long if we list the agritourism associations at the regional level for all major countries. Gizza ( roam ) 02:00, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there some national cooperation between these? One would suppose such a site to have up-to-date lists of the regional associations. --LPfi (talk) 10:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

This page is turning into a link farm
I propose that every link for individual locations (farm stays, museums, festivals etc) be removed from this article. Linking to national or, at a push, regional associations seems acceptable, but if we're listing individual sheep museums or single farmers' markets or recommending particular villages, something with this article has gone badly wrong.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:10, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 130% agree SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Listing every tourist farm in the world is of course impossible. Should this article have any geographic destinations at all? Wine districts? Crop regions? Origins of important plant and animal species? /Yvwv (talk) 22:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Very good question. I don't have a clear idea as how this article can be better, but have a feeling that agriculture may be too regionalised to even feature specific crops or products as you envisage. Just take wine as one example: even if you only feature the largest or most well-known wine regions (which would be a mistake given that some of the best wine in the world comes from unlikely countries), you're still looking at a list of a couple of dozen regions - this is already handled better at Wine. Perhaps we could elaborate more on the agriculture found in some of the top countries or regions for farmstays or those with the most active associations, which looking at the article so far would mean Canada, Germany, India, Italy, and the U.S.? Alternatively, we could turn this into a farmstay version of the Hotels article, with generic advice, and include a simple list of the specific produce articles around WV (Fruit, Meat, Wine, Whisky etc.) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:56, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, I would say maybe listing the highlight of agriculture in every major agricultural country would suit, but I like your idea of a farmstay version of the hotels article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:02, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Few countries have developed without agriculture, and I think concentrating on a few "major" countries is not the way forward. I'd prefer highlighting major types of agritourism while telling in what parts of the world there are good opportunities for these. We might need a long list of countries for agritourism associations in different countries, unless we can link them from country articles instead. I am not sure what to do if there are no suitable country-wide associations and the industry is too weak for having a trail from country article to individual listings in lowest-level articles. –LPfi (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Agritourism on a global scale with individual farms listed could really fill a whole wiki, and I don't think all countries have official agritourism associations (but we could list those that exist). Listing the highlight (or highlights) in important agricultural countries like SHB suggested could be a good idea. We should try to keep the article as general as possible, as of now it only highlights a few random places from around the world. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

What kind of sites are those you added for many countries? At least guestranches.com and vacationranches.com seem to be private sites that list random sites, which have happened to register by them. Should we restrict links to some kind of official sites? –LPfi (talk) 10:27, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

 * I removed those unofficial links. The other links are from the official rural tourism website of Estonia, so I thought they would be some kind of official websites.
 * https://www.maaturism.ee/index.php?id=rural-tourism-in-the-world Kattimattinen (talk) 07:19, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Agritourism


text:
Talk:Aguas Calientes

how can the locals be mistaken about the name of their town????? 66.26.80.79 (aka whitdoug at Wikipedia) 21:42, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

should first person be used in this???? I know that's bad at Wikipedia. 66.26.80.79 21:44, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

 * Wikipedia's style standards don't apply here, but using first-person comments is definitely not what we're looking for in Wikivoyage articles. I agree that saying the locals are "mistaken" is nonsensical, especially since Wikivoyage prefers actual names over official names.  Please feel free to plunge forward and fix these problems. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 23:42, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

Sleep section
I broke the sleep listings into price sub-sections as it was quite large and unmanageable, but I don't really know what price ranges to use for budget/midrange/splurge. The sorting I've done is just rough, please feel free to add pricing rules and move listings between sections. Also obviously a problem is that some of the listings don't have any prices. (WT-en) Gwabell 16:38, 8 December 2011 (EST)

title: Talk:Aguas Calientes


text:
Talk:Ahascragh

ahascragh has one of the most beautiful lakes in ireland called eglish lake. here you can fish and swimm all day free of charge. A lot people go skinny dipping their.

title: Talk:Ahascragh