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Talk:Alberta

Tweak the Regional Boundaries & Names
Hello,

I'm wondering if the boundaries for Alberta should be tweaked. The biggest one for me is the current eastern boundary for the Peace River Valley, which extends to the Saskatchewan border and includes Wood Buffalo National Park and Fort Chipewyan. While technically both areas are in the Peace River valley/watershed, they are culturally and politically connected to the Athabasca River, M.D. of Wood Buffalo, and Fort McMurray more-so than Grande Prairie and Peace River. There are no all-weather road connections; however, there is a winter road and flights to Fort McMurray so I'm thinking they should be moved to Eastern Alberta. I noticed that there had been some debate as to where the eastern boundary should be for the Peace River Valley and Eastern Alberta - might I propose that 114° W be used as the boundary? It's the most easterly of the western boundary of Wood Buffalo National Park (i.e. looking on the map, the boundary where the Peace River crosses into the park), so the areas of Peace River Valley east of 114° W could be absorbed into Eastern Alberta. That is also the western boundary for Wood Buffalo M.D., the governing body for Fort McMurray and Fort Chipewyan. On the map, where Eastern Alberta extends west to include Lesser Slave Lake, this could remain the same.

I was also wondering if a few names could be modified. Here are a few ideas:
 * Peace River Valley could become Peace River Country. In Alberta, it's more-so known as either "Peace River Country" or "Peace Country", and past tourist promotions have refered to it as Mighty Peace Country or "Land of the Mighty Peace" (as per the 1980s Official Alberta Road Map). Peace River Valley isn't the best as most settlements in the area aren't actually in the valley, but in the plains located above the valley within the watershed instead. I also propose that Slave Lake be moved out of the region.

 * Eastern Alberta could become either Lakeland or Northeastern Alberta. Northeastern Alberta is a generic geographic name, but it might be a bit of stretch if places like Slave Lake and Athabasca were included. Lakeland is the name used to describe Bonnyville, Cold Lake, Lac La Biche and St. Paul, and it could be extended to include places further north and east (there is also a Lakeland College in Vermilion and Lloydminster). My personal vote would be "Lakeland".

Any thoughts? -- MuzikMachine (talk) 03:04, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Hi MuzikMachine, what you say makes sense and, even though I was involved with shaping the current region structure, I've increasingly thought it could use some tweaking. My thoughts are:
 * I'm OK with the boundary you suggested between Peace River & Eastern Alberta, but I'm not sure where Slave Lake would go if it's not in the Peace Country. It's west of 114° W and the map showing Eastern Alberta extending past 114 W is an accident. I pretty much just drew a line halfway between Alberta's eastern and western border and then curved it up and around Fort McMurray. The original base map didn't have the lakes so I didn't realize Lesser Slave Lake was underneath the line -- otherwise I would have drawn the line east of the lake. My map tools and skills have increased since I did this map :-) (it was one of my first)
 * I'm good with calling it Peace Country or Peace River Country, but wonder if we should add "Alberta" to the front of it to distinguish it from BC's Peace Country? The part of the Peace River that's in BC is also called the Peace Country, and one day I'd like to carve it out from the current Northern British Columbia guide... although the region name there would be "Peace Country and Northern Rockies" so it's not exactly the same.
 * I like the "Lakeland" name, but wonder if it's too specific considering the region will include Fort McMurray and possibly Slave Lake. I was thinking "Lakeland and the Northeast" might be a good compromise.
 * While we're talking about Alberta's regions, I was wondering what your thoughts are on a couple of other things:
 * Hwy 40 and the area west and southwest of Sundre is currently part of the Alberta Rockies region. However, reading about it, it seems like it has more in common with Sundre than the national parks so I was wondering if that area should be moved to Central Alberta.
 * The Central Alberta/Eastern Alberta divide has always bugged me. Should Vermillion and Lloydminster (plus the area south of them to the Alberta Badlands region) be part of Central Alberta?
 * Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 08:56, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Shaundd, Slave Lake is a bit of an orphan in that it's not really part of the Peace Country, but not really Lakeland either. My concern is that "Lakeland and the Northeast" is a bit wordy, and Fort McMurray is included in some the official Lakeland references (there are a few small lakes up there); and since Slave Lake is on a lake, it might be generic enough to work :) Personally I'm fine with the current southern boundary between Peace River Valley and Eastern Alberta as it's very sparsely populated, but I'm thinking the Peace River Valley should not extend east of 114° W.
 * The Forestry Trunk Road (Hwy 40/734) is a good dividing line between Central Alberta and Alberta Rockies, as that's where the foothills start to become mountains. I'm thinking of doing an article for Nordegg/Big Horn Country/David Thompson Hwy (title TBD) and including some the Forestry Trunk Road, it would belong with the Rockies.
 * I agree with the Central Alberta/Eastern Alberta/Alberta Badlands transition. Being inspired by the British Columbia page which has regions and subregions dependent on their tourist regions, and looking at the Travel Alberta website, what if things were overhauled as follows:
 * Alberta Rockies
 * Banff National Park – includes Banff and Lake Louise)
 * Jasper National Park – includes Jasper and Columbia Icefield)
 * Eastern Slopes – covers everything not within the national parks
 * Southern Alberta
 * Calgary Region
 * Alberta badlands – redrawn so the northern boundary is between Hwy 9 & Hwy 12 (the approx. geographic line between the parkland and grassland)
 * Southwestern Alberta – current extent of the current Southern Alberta region (effectively renamed)
 * Central Alberta
 * Red Deer Region – includes Red Deer, Lacombe, and Sylvan Lake, allows for future expansion if Pine Lake (cottage area) or Innisfail were added
 * West Central Alberta – everything west of Hwy 2
 * East Central Alberta – everything east of Hwy 2; expanded to include the Eastern Alberta communities along Hwy 16 and south
 * Northern Alberta
 * Edmonton Capital Region
 * Peace Country (Alberta) – current Peace River Valley
 * Lakeland – Slave Lake, Athabasca, and Eastern Alberta communities north of Hwy 16 (i.e. north of the North Saskatchewan River)

 * Just my thoughts if we really want to revisit everything. Cheers! -- MuzikMachine (talk) 18:45, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Whoa, lots to talk about now! Going back to your original proposal, I'm fine with the name Lakeland and moving Slave Lake out of Peace Country and over to Lakeland. It does seem a stretch but I think it's necessary sometimes (I can think of a few cases in BC where it happens). It's a wiki... so we can always change the name again if there are objections!
 * If we move Slave Lake, should Whitecourt and the whole Wild Alberta travel region also move to Lakeland? It's extending the stretch, but at the same time, there also seems to be a lot of lakes and rivers and so similarity with the proper "Lakeland" (and maybe more similarity than Central Alberta, where they currently are).
 * If Whitecourt moves, it will orphan Edson in Central Alberta. Would it be too much of a stretch to include Edson in Alberta Rockies?
 * I also like redefining the border of Alberta Badlands so it is between Hwy 9 & 12. Will it sit closer to Hwy 9 so Oyen would still be in the Badlands, but Three Hills and Big Valley (Alberta) would move to Central Alberta?
 * Even though I did it in BC, I'm not a big fan of layers of regions unless it's really big (like Ontario or Quebec). In the case of BC, the mountains play a big role because they chop the province up quite a bit and also help create distinct subregions. My other concern with adding another layer of regions to Alberta is many of the existing top-level regions don't have a lot of content so it makes me hesitant to create even more regions. I was thinking of going the other way and merging Southern Alberta and Alberta badlands into one Southern Alberta guide. The Badlands are different but I think that could be captured in the Understand section, and as a bottom-level region I think the 14 or so cities would be fine. -Shaundd (talk) 07:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Ok, ok - I'll stick to tweaking boundaries as opposed to totally redefining them :) Maybe some the cities in their region articles could be organized with sub-headings, similar to the Okanagan article, but not have separate region articles.
 * Edson and Whitecourt are admittedly isolated orphans in Central Alberta, but it might best to leave them as is. Edson the approximate eastern edge of the foothills along the Yellowhead, and it's the first time one can see the mountains on a clear day when travelling west - but it's still a long way before you're in the Rockies. On the same token Whitecourt might be a little too far west for a Lakeland/Northeastern Alberta region and it doesn't have good transportation links to other cities in that region; if it were to be moved it might fit better in the Peace Country, but it's a little too far south and east to be considered a part of that as well.
 * Good point regarding the Alberta badlands, as it is a smaller, less populated region and could be considered part of Southern Alberta. I'm on the fence on whether it should stay or go; my thoughts are:
 * If the Alberta badlands are merged, then Three Hills and Big Valley (Alberta) could move to Central Alberta with a tight boundary between Central & Southern Alberta along Hwy 9 (all communities along Hwy 9 would be considered Southern Alberta)
 * If the Alberta badlands remain the boundary could be in the middle of Hwys 9 & 12 with Three Hills and Big Valley (Alberta) remaining in the Badlands and Stettler in Central Alberta. Travel Alberta does have a separate section for the Canadian Badlands that is expanded to include Stettler and Lethbridge, so it might be worth keeping despite the lean articles. I had in mind shaving the northern boundary so it would not extend north of Red Deer. --MuzikMachine (talk) 19:13, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

 * I have a slight preference for combining Alberta Badlands and Southern Alberta, but I'm not fussed either way. I don't quite get Travel Alberta's Canadian Badlands region... it seems to cover nearly all the same ground as their Southern Alberta region (it had accommodation going all the way to Cardston(!)).
 * For Central Alberta, I definitely think we should go the route of Okanagan and organize by sub-headings along the lines of your proposed subregions (although I'm not sure we need a Red Deer region). -Shaundd (talk) 00:40, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm fine the merging the Badlands. It seems Alberta has a mish-mash of travel regions, whether it's Travel Alberta or different associations like the Badlands or Go East of Edmonton, which basically covers Eastern Alberta between Cold Lake and Wainwright. Personally I associate the Badlands with Drumheller and Red Deer River valley (i.e. Dinosaur Provincial Park), but some of these other places are more just flat prairie (i.e. Brooks). If you merge Badlands & Southern Alberta, where were you thinking the boundary would be? Based on the map, I was thinking the line could be from the NE corner of the Calgary Region and head straight east, including the Hwy 9 corridor but not much more to the north. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 17:16, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Conversation restart
Hey Shaundd, I'm wondering if you wanted to revisit our discussion about adjusting the regions and boundaries in Alberta? I wondering if the less change, the better, so I propose:
 * Peace River Valley: renamed Peace River Country (Alberta), eastern boundary is Wood Buffalo National Park and 114° W (Slave Lake can remain in the district)
 * Eastern Alberta: now includes Wood Buffalo National Park and Fort Chipewyan
 * Merge Alberta badlands and Southern Alberta; Big Valley (Alberta) can move to Central Alberta; The northern boundary can can be somewhere between Hwys 9 & 12.

Thoughts? --MuzikMachine (talk) 19:17, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Hi MuzikMachine, I had forgotten about this when I got busy in the summer, thanks for reminding me! I'm good with the above. I think we also agreed to rename Eastern Alberta to Lakeland -- do you still want to do that? -Shaundd (talk) 20:42, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Shaundd, no worries, I got busy this summer as well. I had oppertunity to drive from Edmonton to Saskatoon this summer, and I noticed that along the route the East of Edmonton was pushed quite a bit, despite Travel Alberta splitting the area into Central & Northern Alberta. "East of Edmonton" and Eastern Alberta cover a lot of the same area, plus a rename would involve redrawing some of the Central Alberta boundaries, so I'm actually more inclined to leave it as is. I'm thinking that the Eastern Alberta communities could be subdivided into "Wood Buffalo" (areas inside Wood Buffalo MD such as Fort McMurrey, Fort Chip, etc.), "Lakeland" (Athabasca, Cold Lake, Lac La Biche), and "East-Central" (Yellowhead Hwy & south); they wouldn't be sub-regions with seperate pages, but just categories under the Cities listing. What do you think? -- MuzikMachine (talk) 05:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. I was trying to map out the new boundaries and there were a couple of points I wasn't sure on:
 * For the boundary between Central Alberta and Eastern Alberta, would it be just east of Hwy 56 (so it keeps Camrose and Stettler in Central Alberta where they are currently located)?
 * Should Three Hills be in Central Alberta or Alberta Badlands/Southern Alberta?
 * That's funny about East of Edmonton, I guess BC isn't the only place where the local tourism push doesn't always align with the province's "official" tourist regions. There's one area of BC that's historically part of one region, BC's tourism agency places it in a different region and the local chamber of commerce aligns with a third travel region. I'm forever second guessing where I should place it in our travel hierarchy. -Shaundd (talk) 06:28, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm thinking the Central/Eastern boundary should be east of Hwy 56 so Camrose and Stettler can remain in Central Alberta. I'm thinking Three Hills can also be in Central Alberta. The Eastern/Southern boundary could be just north of Hwy 9/Hwy 27, so Drumheller, Hanna, and Oyen can be in (new) Southern Alberta. From the existing map, it looks like Calgary Region kicks in near Beiseker, so I'm thinking the northern Southern boundary could approximately align with that corner. --MuzikMachine (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm working on a map so we can see how things look. I should have it up in a couple of days. -Shaundd (talk) 06:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I posted a map at the top of this section with what I think we've discussed. Let me know if it looks right and then I'll put it in the more usual Wikivoyage format (I've added extra detail for now to help understand where the boundaries are). -Shaundd (talk) 14:45, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good! The only slight modification I would recommend is including the Lac Ste Anne area (Alberta Beach / Onoway) into the Edmonton Capital Region, similar to the old map. That area and Wabamun are close together and similar. Wabamun is a little outside Edmonton, but it is considered part of the Edmonton CMA. Also, should the northern-most of the Peace/Eastern boundary follow the western boundary of Wood Buffalo NP, or does it matter? Otherwise it looks good, thanks for doing this! Once the map is complete, I can start updating articles. Cheers! --MuzikMachine (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi MuzikMachine, I revised the map so Lac Ste Anne is part of the Edmonton region. I didn't change the Peace/Eastern AB border -- I like the simplicity of using 114 W and don't think it matters because Wood Buffalo NP is mostly in Eastern Alberta so it should be pretty clear that's the subregion it belongs to. If you're OK with it, I'll work on finalizing the map. The software I use can also make mapmasks for the subregions so I'll create those too. -Shaundd (talk) 06:08, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thanks! --MuzikMachine (talk) 14:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added a mapmask to Southern Alberta as a test. It looks alright, we may need to adjust the size of the map a bit or leave it zoomed out a bit. -Shaundd (talk) 19:08, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I resized the map and added the Badlands elements as an initial merge, but left the Alberta badlands intact for now. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi MuzikMachine, I've gone ahead and added Fort Chip and Wood Buffalo to Eastern Alberta. Also added mapmasks showing new region boundaries for those two regions.
 * Looks good, thanks! Do you have an UTD region map for the Alberta page?? Thanks again. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 16:49, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm working on the region map. Getting it into Wikivoyage-style takes some time and it's been busy. I'm hoping to have a first cut ready in a few days. -Shaundd (talk) 05:16, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Update: the new region map is up. I still need to clean it up a bit but wanted to get it up there. Let me know if you have any comments. Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 22:15, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thanks for all your work! --MuzikMachine (talk) 00:25, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Further changes
Hi,,. Thanks for all the hard work you guys did here. Now, I'm afraid I'm going to go and throw a grenade into it. Not because I want to be difficult. It's just things as they sit aren't working. The Edmonton Capital Region article is useless, since no one outside Alberta sits down and plans a visit to Beaumont. Either all of the towns in Greater Edmonton need their own article with the region article just as a container, OR all the content should be merged up to the region article.

Likewise, the Central Alberta "article" is really just a list of way too many communities, with no connecting theme (what do Whitecourt and Three Hills have in common anyway?). I propose sub-dividing Central Alberta into sub-regions (as new articles, replacing the individual community articles) that align more with the local tourism marketing organizations, such as: etc. Also Eastern Alberta is almost as bad. The Wood Buffalo National Park is VERY different travel experience from the bald prairie in the SE of this region. And the article text and map reflect this problem. There is no discussion whatsoever of anything south of Wainwright. Again, I propose creating sub-regions here rather than having pages for each community. No one is going to plan an out-of-province trip to Vermillion, but they might want to know what there is to do along the Highway 16 corridor as they drive to Edmonton. Notice that East of Edmonton guide groups their communities by which highway there are closest to (https://www.goeastofedmonton.com/Go). We should do the same. Or at the VERY LEAST we should distinguish between Wood Buffalo, the Lakeland (https://travellakeland.ca/), Kalyna Country (http://www.kalynacountry.com/), and whatever the southern bit is called.
 * Edson, Yellowhead County, and Greenview County (Highway 16 and 40 corridors) (https://issuu.com/sforl/docs/visitor_guide_2019_20_final_for_upl)
 * North West of Edmonton (aka "Wild Alberta", Westlock/Barrhead/Mayerthorpe) (https://wildalberta.com/)
 * David Thomspson Country (Clearwater County, Nordegg, Caroline, Rocky Mountain House) https://davidthompsoncountry.ca/
 * Greater Red Deer

If no one objects, I'll just get started where I already have a good handle on things. Thoughts? Kevlar67 (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Hi Kevlar67, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the regions and their articles are still very much a work-in-progress. I'm not sure grouping communities together will always create more useful guides though. Something like "Wild Alberta" might work since I don't think we cover it much and it seems to be a fairly contained area. Edson, Yellowhead County and Greenview County, on the other hand, is quite large and covers three existing guides if I understand the map right (Edson, Hinton and Grande Cache). We already have a guide on David Thompson Country, although it only covers the western part (Nordegg and area). Rocky Mountain House has its own guide and given the distance between the two areas (and the way attractions are clustered), I'm not sure what benefit it provides travellers to include it in the same guide as Nordegg.

 * For the Edmonton Capital Region, yeah, I've often wondered how useful it is. I don't like the idea of merging all of the outlying communities into one "Greater Edmonton" article that's a donut around Edmonton. Leduc isn't St. Albert and they're in opposite directions. I don't know if it would make more sense to pull them into the Edmonton article, combine some of them and treat them as districts? Or maybe group smaller communities by location (south, west, etc)? I have the same thoughts on the Calgary Region too.

 * I think grouping the communities on the region page is a good idea. The Wood Buffalo/Lakeland/Kalyna (or even something like "Along Hwy 16") groupings you mentioned above look good. For Central Alberta, I think MuzikMachine and I had discussed breaking the list of communities in the region into smaller chunks (e.g., Central Alberta would have Greater Red Deer, West of Hwy 2, East of Hwy 2). These wouldn't be separate articles, just sub-headings in the list of communities to help readers make sense of them.

 * All of this said, we just changed the regions. I'd prefer to see how things settle from those changes before making significant new changes. -Shaundd (talk) 07:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

 * I think I will just start with a Kalyna Country article and see how that works, since that's the region I know the most about. The only community in that region that already has an article is Vegreville, the rest are completed un-covered; so I don't need to change anything, just add.  My inspirations are articles like Rural Montgomery County, Maryland and Prince Edward County, Ontario, and  which are pretty good regional articles. Kevlar67 (talk) 16:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I would be reluctant to make too many changes to the regions that reflect the lesser known, unofficial tourist regions. Some of these names have changed over the years, and most outsiders would know the areas more for the cities and towns vs. the regions. In looking at WV:WIAA, the preference is geographical hierarchy (e.g., countries, states, cities). I agree that Eastern Alberta isn't the best, but it also is one of the more underpopulated and less visited areas of the province. One thing to keep in mind with the Kalyna Country article is "Can you sleep there"? WV:SLEEPTHERE. Some of the listings could also be simply integrated into a "Nearby" section of city articles. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , . I agree with that up to a point. But it's not obvious to me if Victoria Settlement is "nearby" to Fort Saskatchewan or Vegreville or Lac la Biche or all of them.  And you can absolutely "sleep there" in countryside in Alberta.  I counted 80 campsites and RV parks in the Kalyna Country website.  Have a look at my first draught there and tell me what you think. Kevlar67 (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Kalyna Country is now rated as "usable" if that matters. Kevlar67 (talk) 03:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

New proposal: get rid of Eastern Alberta (as a top-level region)
The fact that I was able to get Kalyna Country to "usable" within a week--but Central Alberta, Eastern Alberta and Peace Country are all still outlines--has given me a new idea. I think that Kalyna Country works because is it is a more manageable and coherent size, has a distinct "personality" that is possible to write about meaningfully, and has already-published sources we can draw from. Therefore I think we need to create more small-region articles like that. I propose that we Please comment. Whatever the ultimate fate of the main regions, I am going to continue my work on sub-regions. The next one I would like to work on is the "Wild" region, but their chosen name is stupid and not really that descriptive (or even accurate), so it's giving me pause. I'm considering "North of Edmonton", "Pembina River Country", "Upper Athabasca Country", "Middle Alberta", "Mid-Central Alberta" (because the actual centre of the province is at Fort Assiniboine). The other interesting thing about this region for our purposes is that it straddles the boundary between "Central" and "Eastern" Alberta as we've had them so far (which as I've said, doesn't make sense since this is the actual centre of the province). Not naming it identically to the tourism organization also gives us freedom to modify the boundary slightly if we like. Ideas are welcome. Acutally after thinking about it, since the "lakeland" is a much more coherent idea, I might work on that instead. Kevlar67 (talk) 16:20, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) merge the Wood Buffalo section of Eastern Alberta into the Peace Country as Northern Alberta.  But that Slave Lake and points south move into Central Alberta
 * 2) abolish Eastern Alberta as a separate article and merge it in to Central Alberta, but with Central Alberta broken into sub-regions (Kalyna Country, Lakeland, David Thompson, etc.)
 * Even if Fort Assiniboine is the geographic centre of Alberta, Red Deer is the population centre of Alberta and the term "Central Alberta" is largely used to describe the area between Edmonton and Calgary; see Ontario and compare where Central Ontario is relative the geographic centre. Here's my idea:
 * Kalyna Country - boundaries follow the Kalyna Country Wikipedia article, largely replacing Eastern Alberta; the southern boundary could either be between Hwys 14 & 16 or between Hwys 13 & 14 and include Tofield and Wainwright (Alberta).
 * Central Alberta - expanded east to the Saskatchewan border to cover the southernmost portion of Eastern Alberta. See above for the new northern boundary.
 * Northern Alberta - merge Peace Country, some of the northern areas of Central Alberta such as Whitecourt, the northern areas of Eastern Alberta such as Athabasca, Cold Lake, Lac La Biche, Fort McMurray, and Wood Buffalo National Park. Subcategories such as Lakeland, Peace Country, and Wood Buffalo could be used. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I can be on-board with getting rid of Eastern Alberta as long as there is a good plan to replace it. It would make Central Alberta and the proposed Northern Alberta quite large, so subregions would be helpful. Just keep in mind that if we decide to create subregions for, say Central Alberta, all of Central Alberta needs to subdivided with no gaps and no overlap between subregions. It's easy for Lakeland and Kalyna Country but where do places like Wainwright (Alberta) and Stettler fall? Shaundd (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , I propose that we basically copy the boundaries of Central Alberta used on Wikipedia, or just to make it even more simple use 55 degrees north as the line between Central and Northern Alberta.  Alberta-central map.png Manitoba_and_Northwest_Territories_(1900).jpg for what to call the subregions, everything south or east of Kalyna Country is "East-Central Alberta" as far as I'm concerned.  In fact why don't we just make the rump Eastern Alberta (shorn of Wood Buffalo, Lakeland, Kalyna) a subregion of Central Alberta?  Then split the current content of "Central Alberta" as many ways as you like but for me the simplest would be North-Central (Everything west of Lakeland and Kalyna to as far as Fox Creek, including Whitecourt, Westlock, Barrhead, Athabasca, and Swan Hills), Foothills (Edson, Drayton, Rocky, Sundre), Central Corridor (either side of Highway 2 from Wetaskiwin to Carstairs, as far was as Pigeon Lake or Slyvan Lake but not as far as highway 20, and as far east as Highway 21 or at most 56 if you want to keep Camrose, Settler and Three Hills, not not as far as Highway 36), and (rump) Eastern Alberta. Lots of other ways to do it, of course, but these are simple and have definite features and themes like natural features (foothills) or proximity to major cities and infrastructure (Highway 2). Kevlar67 (talk) 00:26, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * ,  I went ahead and created North Central Alberta and Central Corridor.  Please comment. Kevlar67 (talk) 23:21, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
 * , And now also, Foothills. 15:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The bones of it look good. For the Central Corridor, I would recommend moving Three Hills, Innisfail, and Didsbury-Carstairs from Other destinations to Cities. The general practice of Wikivoyage is the headings have less to do with municipal status (i.e. cities, towns, villages) and more about differentiating human settlements from other attractions such as parks (Alix and Big Valley could probably remain). With references to David Thompson Country, do you plan to move it from Alberta Rockies? --MuzikMachine (talk) 05:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just don't want to violate the "keep lists to 7 (+/-2)" rule for the list of towns. Especially when Innisfail isn't really an attraction itself but more of a base for going to Markerville, etc. to see rural attractions, and when Didsbury and Carstairs got mushed together for some reason, so that's not a "town" either, somehow.  I'm open to ideas on David Thompson Country.  Perhaps it's better staying in the Rockies (though I've also started a discussion on that page's "talk"!), with Foothills just mentioning it as a "go next"? Kevlar67 (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi all! I'm trying to make sure all the city articles are listed and breadcrumbed to the right place, but I'm not sure what region structure to follow. I take it there's consensus for this restructuring. Would someone be able to make a map of the new regions? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:36, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Just a recall, what is the final structure of the regions (i.e. region / subregion)? Thanks! --MuzikMachine (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Reading over the discussion, it sounds like the new regions are Northern Alberta, Central Alberta, Kalyna Country, Edmonton, Alberta Rockies, Calgary, and Southern Alberta. The Central Alberta article is to be further divided into North Central Alberta, Foothills, Eastern Alberta, and Central Corridor. That's what I gather from this discussion, but please correct me if I've misunderstood anything. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think Kalyna Country is a top-level region. I believe it's a rural destination article about the stuff in-between towns along and near the Yellowhead highway. I'm not sure if it's part of Central Alberta or Northern Alberta under this scheme though. Reading through the discussion I see a couple of options for defining the boundary between Northern and Central Alberta but I don't think one option was picked (yet). -Shaundd (talk) 23:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My current proposal is: Northern Alberta is everything above 55 North, Central Alberta (which contains: North Central Alberta, Foothills, Eastern Alberta, Central Corridor, AS WELL AS Lakeland (Alberta) and Kalyna Country [this follows the "7 +/-2 rule"]), Southern Alberta, and Alberta Rockies. Kevlar67 (talk) 03:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think Lakeland should be in Northern Alberta, here's my proposal
 * • Central Alberta
 * • Eastern Alberta
 * • Kalyna Country
 * • Foothills
 * • Central Corridor
 * • North Central Alberta
 * • Northern Alberta
 * • Peace Country - everything west of Lesser Slave Lake
 * • Lakeland (Alberta) - as proposed, add Athabasca and Slave Lake
 * • Wood Buffalo - Fort McMurray, Fort Chipewyan, Fort McKay, Wood Buffalo National Park
 * The dividing line between Central Alberta/Eastern Alberta and Northern Alberta/Lakeland (Alberta) could be the North Saskatchewan River. There is some of Kalyna Country that is in the north side of the river, but most of the towns listed are to the south.
 * Since regions are being discussed, I also was wondering about making Banff National Park and Jasper National Park as regions, with Banff, Jasper, Lake Louise and the Columbia Icefield listed under the appropriate park (even if its just bread-crumbed). It violates the rule of 3, but the parks are the same size as regions and the towns are fully within the respective parks. Thoughts? --MuzikMachine (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Alberta Regions WP.png don't hate your counter-proposal, but I have a few minor qualms. Firstly, the Lakeland is part of the regular road network, easily accessible from Edmonton, and blends fairly gradually into the the farms of Kalyna Country and Eastern Alberta, which is why I think it's part of Central Alberta  (it's also just easier to say that the southern boundary of the | Municipality of Wood Buffalo is the dividing line between North and Central.  But, on the other hand apparently, the old official tourism regions put Lakeland County in the North (see map to the left).  The N. Sask River is also a good choice for a dividing line, honestly, although it kinda messes up Kalyna Country (sadly), so it's not my first choice.  Having Kalyna Country as a rural destination under Eastern Alberta would also work just fine as well, though in that case I would say merge Vegreville into it.  About Using Jasper and Banff as "regions", I would actually support this if one isue was cleared up: we also need to capture the nearby areas outside the parks as part of the hierarchy as well, so either including Hinton as part of "Jasper Park region" even though it technically isn't in the park proper, and Canmore with Banff or K-Country, etc. OR create a new "region" or, more likely, regions, that contain the leftovers.  For example Grande Cache and area, | Municipal District of Bighorn No. 8 and | Willmore Wilderness Park Kevlar67 (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In looking at the discussion history, the consensus was to keep Kalyna Country and Vegreville separate; IMO Kalyna Country is bordering into Extraregion territory but it can remain as a rural article. Lakeland might have more a "northern" association, and I want to guard against Central Alberta becoming too big where you have Three Hills and Red Deer in the same region as Cold Lake. Based on the towns listed in Kalyna Country article, maybe have the Central Alberta/Eastern Alberta and Northern Alberta/Lakeland (Alberta) boundary follow the St. Paul County southern boundary (between Hwys 28 & 45) and western boundary (around Hwy 36), and then the larger Central Alberta/Northern Alberta boundary would be between Hwys 28 & 55. The article could even include St. Paul as being in Lakeland.
 * As for the Alberta Rockies, I want to have the change really simple and not create too many extra regions; for example, the end game is have the Banff town site article to have "North America > Canada > Prairies > Alberta > Alberta Rockies > Banff National Park" as it's filing, preferably without having to do anything with the "leftover" articles outside National Parks. In reality, | Municipal District of Bighorn No. 8 around Canmore and | Willmore Wilderness Park near Grande Cache have nothing in common other than both being in the mountains. Call Banff & Jasper National Parks "Big Cities"?? :) --MuzikMachine (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to see to Lakeland (Alberta) in Northern Alberta so Northern Alberta makes sense as a travel region. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we use the southern boundary of Wood Buffalo as the border for Northern/Central Alberta, doesn't it mean there are no road connections between the two sub-regions of Northern Alberta (Wood Buffalo and Peace River) and so people are unlikely to move between them? Obviously you can fly, but isn't the main direction of travel from Fort Mac down through Lakeland, and for Peace River, travellers would typically head to North Central Alberta (Hwy 43) or Lakeland (e.g., Hwy 2 and Slave Lake)?
 * For Alberta Rockies, perhaps we should pioneer a "huge park" article? :-) More seriously, the status quo is Wikivoyage's guidelines. I'm not opposed to breadcrumbing Banff and Jasper to their National Parks (it's where they are administratively and I don't think it would confuse readers), but it's not consistent with WV rules about breadcrumbs. If there's agreement it's the exception that proves the rule, we can do it that way, but we should probably have that discussion in it's own thread so it's easily referenced in case someone asks "why is it different" in the future. -Shaundd (talk) 03:50, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * We already have at least one park as a region with cities breadcrumbed to it: Adirondacks. So please go ahead and make a couple of national parks region articles if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm prepared to concede Lakeland to Northern Alberta. I don't even mind Kalyna becoming an "extra-hierarchical region" so that it can include relevant information from Vegreville and St. Paul County as well, if there was a consensus to do that.  And I say go ahead and breadcrum Banff, Lake Louise, and Jasper to their national parks, I think it makes sense.  Most parks in the wider world don't have towns inside them that draw more visitors per year than the population of the whole province they are in, but Banff does, so it might be the exception worth making. Kevlar67 (talk) 04:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, Kalyna Country can probably be a rural article in Eastern Alberta so there's some kind of breadcrumb. Re the mountain parks, is there a better place to archive the discussion? Maybe Talk:Alberta Rockies? It looks like there's been a parallel discussion there. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

New Regions (2020)
I'm starting a new thread as the discussion is getting long. I think there's some consensus but I figured I'd outline everything: --MuzikMachine (talk) 17:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Alberta Rockies - no changes; breadcrumb Banff & Lake Louise into Banff National Park and Jasper & Columbia Icefield into Jasper National Park
 * Calgary Region - no changes
 * Central Alberta
 * Central Corridor
 * Alix
 * Big Valley (Alberta)
 * Camrose
 * Didsbury-Carstairs
 * Innisfail (Alberta)
 * Lacombe
 * Olds
 * Pigeon Lake
 * Ponoka
 * Red Deer
 * Stettler
 * Sylvan Lake
 * Three Hills
 * East Central Alberta
 * Lloydminster
 * Kalyna Country
 * Tofield
 * Vegreville
 * Vermilion (Alberta)
 * Wainwright (Alberta)
 * Foothills
 * Edson
 * Entwistle-Evansburg
 * Drayton Valley
 * Rocky Mountain House
 * Sundre
 * Edmonton Capital Region - no changes
 * Northern Alberta
 * Lakeland (Alberta)
 * Bonnyville
 * Cold Lake
 * Elk Point (Alberta)
 * Lac La Biche
 * St. Paul (Alberta)
 * North Central Alberta
 * Athabasca
 * Barrhead
 * Fox Creek
 * Mayerthorpe
 * Slave Lake
 * Swan Hills (Alberta)
 * Whitecourt
 * Westlock
 * Peace Country - omit Slave Lake
 * Wood Buffalo
 * Fort McMurray
 * Fort Chipewyan
 * Fort McKay
 * Wood Buffalo National Park

 * Hi MuzikMachine, I think that looks reasonable. A few questions:
 * I don't see Edmonton Capital Region -- it's still a top-level region, right?
 * What is the southern boundary of Eastern Alberta -- is it below Wainwright or would it extend all the way down to Southern Alberta? (e.g., where would Castor or Coronation fall -- Central Corridor or Eastern Alberta?)
 * Would "East Central Alberta" be a better name for what's left of "Eastern Alberta"?
 * The town of Slave Lake will move to Lakeland, but what about the lake itself? I see the lake is covered by two municipalities -- Lesser Slave Lake and Big Lakes -- would it make sense to use the Lesser Slave Lake/Big Lakes boundary as the boundary between Lakeland & Peace River?
 * Cheers -Shaundd (talk) 21:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Hi Shaundd,
 * My mistake, I fixed the list and added Edmonton Capital Region.
 * I would recommend having Eastern Alberta extend south to Southern Alberta to include places like Castor and Coronation, basically all the Hwy 12 & 13 communities east of Stettler and Camrose respectively.
 * I liked the idea of "East Central Alberta", it's a name that is used to describe the area.
 * The Big Lakes MD section of Lesser Slave Lake could probably be in the Peace Country. High Prairie is definitely in the Peace Country and the article includes some of the western shore.
 * Cheers! --MuzikMachine (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Cool. I think things are clear enough that I can draw the new Alberta map. It might take a week or two since I don't have much free time these days. Once it's done, I'll work on region maps for Central Alberta and Northern Alberta. -Shaundd (talk) 04:21, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you guys ready to pull the switch on the top level regions on Alberta? I've got a map with the new Northern Alberta and Central Alberta region boundaries ready to go... so I'll upload it once I hear we're ready to add Northern Alberta to the main Alberta page. -Shaundd (talk) 07:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Now if it we're up to me I wouldn't have Athabasca and Slave Lake in Lakeland.  But if that's the consensus, so be it. Kevlar67 (talk) 09:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Should North Central Alberta actually be in Northern Alberta? Then Athabasca and Slave Lake could be moved over. --MuzikMachine (talk) 20:22, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I really like that idea. We might need a new name for the region though. :-) -Shaundd (talk) 21:14, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Might not have to, the emphases goes from the northern part of Central Alberta to the central part of Northern Alberta :-) A lot of the area is in the Wild Alberta (unofficial) tourist region, but I am not a big fan of that name. Wikipedia uses "North Central" to describe the location of a number of the communities, so it might still work. The more I think about it, I like the idea of Northern Alberta north of Edmonton, similar to how Southern Alberta begins (mostly) south of Calgary. -- MuzikMachine (talk) 04:28, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Tourism Alberta also roughly follows north of Edmonton is Northern Alberta and south of Calgary is Southern Alberta, so we'd have company. I'm good with keeping the article "North Central Alberta".
 * Did we agree to rename "Eastern Alberta" as "East Central Alberta", too? -Shaundd (talk) 06:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of "East Central Alberta" and haven't seen any objections so let's do it. I've updated the list to reflect the changes.--MuzikMachine (talk) 14:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * New map is up and I adjusted the region list. I still need to update the map to show North Central Alberta in Northern Alberta, I'll try to get to it tonight. -Shaundd (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Map updated - North Central Alberta now in Northern Alberta
 * Even though it ended up being slightly different than what I envisioned, I think I am happy with the scheme overall, and I do like the new map. Kevlar67 (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Improving the region articles
I've started working on Alberta region articles to bring them up to a usable level. Some of them are not that far off already, and need just a little bit extra, while others are in rough shape. I don't live in Alberta, and haven't visited for over a decade, so I'm really hoping to get some assistance from people who know the province better. I'm doing this in part as research for a driving trip in the autumn (if things re-open). Ground Zero (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Whoa! There are too many images!
And they're left, right and center! This site's guidelines on images are at Image policy, and in this case WV:Image policy is the key set of guidelines:

 * For longer articles, 1 image per screen (1,000 - 2,000 bytes) is generally adequate.
 * Images should be distributed throughout an article, not bunched up in any section.
 * Try to avoid having more than 2 or at most 3 successive images without space between them.

The other very relevant section is WV:Image policy:

By default images in Wikivoyage articles should be right-aligned.
 * Don't use left-alignment just to squeeze more images into an article. A likely indicator that you're doing so is that vertical overlap seems necessary.

And I'd add, don't center-align photos to squeeze more images into an article.

Since there are so many images in the article now and they're all over the place in terms of alignment, it will take a lot of work to bring this article back into harmony with Manual of style. The additional content is great! But the style has to be attended to.

It would help greatly if we could make decisions about which 11 or so photos (11 being the number of screens I count on my laptop that don't already have maps in them) are the most important and should be kept in the article, after which the rest should be removed. I would particularly invite Kevlar67, Ground Zero, Shaundd, MuzikMachine, Ymblanter and Ibaman, who've edited this article in the last year, to comment on this and help fix the issue. And also K7L, if he has any inclination to come back to Wikivoyage. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

 * It wasn't so much about "squeezing in" more images, as it was about breaking up the long pieces of text and trying to throw in a couple of left and centre aligned images in for variety and visual interest. But if that's too far from standard, go ahead and remove a couple, of course.  I have no strong opinions except that not all of our imagines should be from the Rockies and that as many as possible should show people in them, preferably doing something, and not just landscapes, although a few of those are fine of course.Kevlar67 (talk) 22:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

 * More than a couple need to be removed. This is a big job. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

 * I just removed 7 or 8. That must be sufficient. At some point I'd like to put some back if there's more text to go with them, or I'll stick them in the sub- regions. Kevlar67 (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

 * You're talking about images? I think there are still too many, particularly where they're left and center as well as right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

 * When I'm reading the article now, whether on a desktop or a phone, I see long stretches of just text with no images, so I'm satisfied. I'll move the on left-side image to right.  Beyond that, I have no interest in playing with the images again.  Someone else can feel free. Kevlar67 (talk) 15:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

9 "Cities"
Per Avoid long lists, 9 cities in the "Cities" section of articles is a hard limit except for bottom-level region articles (meaning articles for regions that aren't themselves divided into smaller subregions on Wikivoyage). In view of that, I removed Grande Prairie from Alberta, since it was the latest city added. However, if anyone would like to post an argument for why that city should replace any of the 9 cities currently in the list, please make the argument and see if we can get a consensus behind it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Whether or not Grande Prairie goes back in, I would propose removing Banff, Jasper, and Drumheller. These are not "cities" but rather resort towns, and are better covered under "other destinations". Kevlar67 (talk) 22:26, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Keep in mind that "Other destinations" are also limited to 9. Does that change things at all? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Not to me, since Banff and Jasper are nearly synonymous with Banff National Park and Jasper National Park, which are included. But I am curious what others think. Kevlar67 (talk) 04:02, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Drumheller is a city with a museum and a number of things around it (such as the Horseshow Canyon), and should stay in the list. I agree though that there is not much need to keep Banff and Jasper in the list of cities, as soon as we have the NPs in the other lists.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:49, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * So it looks like the plan is to restore Grande Prairie and keep Drumheller, if we have agreement on that, while removing Banff and Jasper. At that point, we would have 8 "Cities". Is there another one we should add? And does this plan change the lineup in "Other destinations" at all? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * In other destinations, Lake Louise is in Banff NP, which means it is a duplication which we can remove, but I do not have good candidates to replace. For citied, we can remove Banff (now we have three entries in the 18-item list for Banff NP) and keep Jasper, if there are no better ideas.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of what Ymblanter said except that Drumheller is if fact a town of only 8,000 residents and not a city as most readers would understand the term. Yes, it is more highly visited than some larger places because of the famous museum, but by no stretch of the word can it be called a city.  We don't need to fill the list up, but if we did want to add any place, the next logical addition would be Lloydminster (population 31,000).  But I do agree that Lake Louise can be safely removed as it is part of Banff National Park. Kevlar67 (talk) 15:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not in favour of removing Banff and Jasper from the Cities section, at all. I get they're both part of a park that's listed in Other Destinations, but the townsite articles are very distinct (with different attractions and the bulk of accommodation) from the National Park articles. Given their popularity -- Banff pulls in 4 million visitors a year and Jasper nearly 2.5 million -- I don't think making readers do extra clicks to find popular destinations is helpful.
 * Drumheller isn't in the same league as Banff and Jasper, but a Google search says it gets 500,000 visitors a year. Medicine Hat (one of the other nine cities), by comparison, was around 21,000 visitors. I couldn't find data for Lethbridge, Red Deer and Grande Prairie. To me, Drumheller doesn't seem like a good candidate to remove from the list either.
 * Regarding "cities", we use the term loosely. Per Geographical_hierarchy, it can include cities, metro areas and towns and villages. The region template allows us to rename the section, but its guidance is "if there are lots of different kinds and sizes of settlements, just leave it as "Cities"". I think it's probably also fair to say that standard practice on Wikivoyage is we try to list the "cities" that are considered to have the most interest to travellers and not just the nine biggest cities. Otherwise it's more like an encyclopedia than a travel guide. -Shaundd (talk) 07:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Shaundd. I'd welcome responses to this from others, but it makes sense to me, for what it's worth as someone who has yet to visit provinces other than Quebec and Ontario. So if we keep the "Cities" list the way it is now, should we change "Other destinations" in any way? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Banner
Title. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 * Banner 2 is Canada, so excluding that one, I would vote 3, 1, 0. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 22:15, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 * My votes are 3, then 1. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Didn't realize that two was also used for Canada, so 3 and then one. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:39, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think banner 3 is star quality. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 00:34, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Banner 3 is cropped from a featured image from Commons (or actually, all of them except zero are). -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like three has an all-for-support. Will change the banner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:34, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 * It would be great to find another use for #1. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * @Ikan Kekek Canada Expedition? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I also asked the Italian community if they wanted to switch banners. I wonder which banner they'll choose. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:59, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure on Canada Expedition, because it already has an exciting, excellent banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:29, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've really cropped a lot of banners... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But if it doesn't find a place to go in, it'll always have a place on c:User:SHB2000. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:48, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

"Alberta is not well known by non-Canadians"
I dispute this statement

"Alberta is not well known by non-Canadians, but if you do know much about it you might associate the province with the Rocky Mountains (which in truth are only found along Alberta's western boundary), perhaps the 1988 Winter Olympics which were held in Calgary, the cowboy country of Southern Alberta, or the controversial 'oil sands'/'tar sands' of Fort McMurray."

Most Australians have heard of Alberta, and basic things about Alberta is taught in schools here as part of geography, and so most people here know about it. Is this just something with the US? -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 * Probably. Americans are damnably ignorant about the rest of the world, but it's not really our fault. It's the fault of our (lack of) geographical education. I never had a dedicated geography course in the U.S. at any stage of my education but had two great years of geography classes in standards 5 and 6 in Malaysia. The rest of my geographical knowledge is almost all self-taught, because I've been a geography buff since I was 6, but I had the privilege of having parents who were willing and financially able to buy atlases for me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you there. I stopped reading American news last year due to the lack of international coverage and now just stick with Australian, Canadian and UK newspapers. I guess this is a similar case. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it's even worse because we're talking about Canada. Canadians know way more about the U.S. than Americans know about Canada, yet we have a really long border with Canada and it's our most important ally and one of our top trading partners. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:27, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * And it's super surprising that it's taught on the opposite side of the Pacific. But thinking about it, not many Australians know about provinces in Papua New Guinea, and let's remember that PNG was an Australian possession before 1975 which is not that long ago. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It sure isn't! I remember 1975 well. I arrived in Malaysia that year and was in standard 5. I'd have to admit that as much as I'm a geography buff, while I have no problem reciting the names or pointing out the locations of all Canadian provinces and territories by name, I might have trouble remembering some of the Mexican states or would at least need more time to do so (I suppose I'd eventually remember them all and could probably identify them all on a blank map with just boundaries), and Mexico is also on our border and a huge trading partner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:54, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But I did hear that learning Papua New Guinean geography is now being taught at primary schools now, at least according to my cousin, which is nice because it's the closest country to us, unless the so called "Antarctic claims" are counted (which otherwise France would be the closest).
 * The same is happening with Indonesia as well, but unlike PNG, I was taught Indonesian geography in school but that's also relatively new (like at least 5 years now). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Back to original point, before doing any changes, what is it like from a UK perspective? ? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Of course I have heard of Alberta, Calgary and Edmonton, and know it straddles the Rockies and the Prairies, but I wouldn't say that means I know it "well" (to borrow the article's term), and have no problem with the sentence as it's written. We do have a geography education in the UK, but it's largely based on specific fields of study in physical and human geography (geological activity, the water cycle, economic growth, urbanisation etc), with places around the world chosen seemingly at random to act as case studies for each concept, which probably means that different schools study different places.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

 * I visited Alberta as a child, so my knowledge isn't representative. We flew into Calgary (from Toronto) and spent a few nights there before going on to Banff. The flight home from Vancouver stopped in Edmonton, and then flew straight to Glasgow Prestwick.
 * Alberta occasionally appears on TV here - mainly showing the Rockies. School geography does tend to study places at random - I recall learning a lot about Ghana. I expect that most Brits know a lot more about Canada than Mexico, due to the common language, and the way in which travelling Canadians often have their bags covered in flags. AlasdairW (talk) 21:12, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alberta


text:
Talk:Al Buhayrah

I used the preferred form from the Getty Thesaurus. Dmoz has Beheira, so I've set up a redirect for that spelling. --(WT-en) Evan 10:16, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Al Buhayrah


text:
Talk:Albuquerque

What to do with Old Town
Recently I changed Old Town into a complex attraction, but now I'm wondering whether to give it its own "district" article. There seems to be enough there to warrant its own article, but I'm still new to Wikivoyage so I'm not really sure.

For those who have been to Old Town, what do you think? Is Old Town worthy of an article? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:55, 25 December 2006 (EST)

 * I don't think so -- yet. Albuquerque is a bit small to call for the "huge city" template/approach.  The article can probably be kept to manageable size without breaking into districts.
 * Incidentally, you've been doing a FANTASTIC job with this article. I've learned stuff from it that I didn't know despite having lived just down the road a piece for over 25 years.  Great work; I think this is another star article in the making. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:54, 25 December 2006 (EST)

Truly local dining
I've added Barelas, (i for the longest time spelled it Barellas), and i've included the Geo information for it. However, are there any other really hard to find local restaurants that people can think of? I'd love to see them as an albuquerquian, and one that loves food. (WT-en) Indrora 17:38, 30 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Just one quick question, is there any particular reason you added a tag? (EDIT: Oops, wait, you didn't add that tag...) As far as I can see, the Eat section fits the Manual of Style almost perfectly. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:46, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

Push for Star status
I think we're getting really close now. Imagine, two New Mexico star articles! Anyway, here's what needs to be improved if we want to turn this into a star:

 * Needs a map
 * Better Sleep listings (and more of them, too)
 * More in the "Buy" section
 * Anything else you can think of.

With the exception of the map, I'm afraid I might not be of too much help. I don't do a lot of shopping (other than grocery shopping) and I've haven't needed to sleep in a motel in Albuquerque anytime recently.

Also, I noticed we don't have any price ranges for when we call something "Budget", "Mid-range", or "Splurge" here in Albuquerque. I really have no idea what these would be. Any ideas? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:50, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

 * Considering how many Star articles there are that would be amazing.  As far as hotel ranges per diem for Albuqueque is $70 so the low mid range should be right around there.  I did a quick check of the what was there and Crossland is $40 - $50, Microtell $55 - $70, The courtyard is $90, the pyramid is $130 -$180, the Hyatt is $300 - $500.  So I guess going on how it is already sorted, and what seems to make sense: Budget - Under $60/$65, Mid - $60/$65 - $150?$200?, high - $150/$200+.  Hotels can probably be found by doing research, as people stay in them they can add commentary I suppose.   One question I have, I can't see Rio Rancho, Bernillio, or Coralles justifying their own article and it seems like they should be included in ABQ, as it is all the Albuquerque Metro Area (redirect the articles to here in case someone is looking for them).  If we go that route a lot of information will need to be added... I am brand new here, do you know how other 'metro' articles are done?  (WT-en) Ralthor 21:26, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Bernalillo already has its own article actually. But I agree that there's not enough in Rio Rancho and Coralles to justify articles for them, and I don't think they're well-known enough that we need to do redirect articles. One thing we can do is put Rio Rancho/Coralles stuff in the ABQ article (unless it's much closer to Bernalillo, in which case we could put it the Bernalillo article), or perhaps we could put it in the Central New Mexico article? It depends on how much there is to share about Rio Rancho. There really doesn't seem to be a whole lot for the tourist out there. EDIT: I just looked at the Rio Rancho and Corrales chamber of commerce websites. Corrales has a couple of nice places and a little main street business district. Frankly, I think that could fit really well into the Central New Mexico article (quaint little village just outside ABQ, really fits the feel of that article) with a single "See" listing on Corrales mentioning the nice little main street district, and then perhaps a couple "Eat" listings if we feel like (in fact, there's already an "Eat" listing for a place in Corrales). As for Rio Rancho, it seems like the only thing they've really got is the arena where the Scorpions hockey team plays, and I think we could just stick that into a "Do" listing in the Albuquerque article, like the Isotopes and the Lobos. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:35, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
 * That sounds good, Rio Rancho really only has the Santa Ana Center, I can't think of anything interesting to travelers except maybe the plans for city-wide wifi, and Intel is already under Work section. I lived in Corrales for a year and definetly considered it part of Albuquerque, but it is certaily different, its like a rural town hidden inside a big city, the main street starts basically at the Cottonwood mall (can add that under shopping if we include Rio Rancho) and comes back out at the top of Rio Rancho so its hard to seperate it out.  But this seems like a good course of action.  Include Rio Rancho in Albuquerque, Coralles in Central New Mexico and mention it here, make sure Bernalillo stuff gets put in Bernalillo (and mentioned in Albuqueque, which it currently isn't).   (WT-en) Ralthor 21:10, 28 June 2007 (EDT)
 * In my opinion Rio Rancho should eventually have its own article; it's a "destination" for professional travel because of Intel. Mention the hotels and restaurants there, since people traveling to Intel on business will likely stay/eat in Rio Rancho.  The situation with Corrales is a bit less clear, but I'd lean toward eventually writing an article for it too.  Albuquerque is unusual in not really having "suburbs" other than Rio Rancho; most of the other towns in the metro area (Corrales included) developed before ABQ grew out to meet and envelop them, and have their own distinctive identities as a result.  This argues in favor of distinct articles, with the same level of content and development as in articles for the state's other small towns.  However, it's not urgent. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:24, 29 June 2007 (EDT)

 * GREAT news everyone! I finally was able to hone my developing map skills and I created a pretty decent map of Albuquerque. I am also going to make a smaller Downtown/Old Town map very soon, and you can see the boundaries for it on the current big map. I just couldn't fit all the stuff in that area onto this big map, it's going to need its own little map. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 06:32, 15 August 2007 (EDT)
 * UPDATE: I finished the Downtown/Old Town map. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:38, 16 August 2007 (EDT)
 * That looks great, nice job.--(WT-en) Ralthor 00:38, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

UNM/Nob Hill map
I'm going to post this here, in case someone's wondering why I did this...

I made a small map for the UNM/Nob Hill area because we had a growing number of listings for that small section of town and it was getting annoying trying cram all of them onto the main Albuquerque map. So I made a separate map for the area, like the one for the Downtown/Old Town area. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:18, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Edit conflict

 * Moved this here from the pub as part of a sweep-up as it is since resolved. (WT-en) Nrms 14:51, 10 November 2008 (EST)

I can't edit Albuquerque for some reason. Says edit conflict. Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee talk 03:42, 9 November 2008 (EST) .

 * Means somebody else has edited the article at the same time, or even that you've got two copies of it open and are trying to save different versions on top of each other (happen more easily than you'd think when you open too many tabs...). The edit conflict page tells you what the conflicts are, fix them and save again. (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:21, 9 November 2008 (EST)
 * I can't find the edit conflict. No one else is editing.  Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee  talk 10:44, 9 November 2008 (EST).

 * I've been having the same problem, and no one else is editing the page because it happens every darn time I try to edit the page. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 11:08, 9 November 2008 (EST)

 * The first line of the conflict screen provides the useful info - "this edit has been blocked by the spam filter". Apparently angelfire dot com is on the spam blacklist.  I've removed that link from the article, so hopefully it should be editable again. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:11, 9 November 2008 (EST)

 * Boo-yah! I couldn't figure out where that angel fire link was. Thank you! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 11:13, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Expressways
The article says: "Many Albuquerqueans consider Interstates 40 and 25, which run through the city, to be their own personal expressways."

-- What exactly is the intended meaning of this sentence ? Why would we not consider the Interstates to be expressways that we can use ? —The preceding comment was added by 76.113.56.30 (talk • contribs).

 * I believe it's the difference between "personal expressway" and "shared expressway". (WT-en) LtPowers 10:07, 2 November 2009 (EST)
 * As in, "Screw the speed limit, this is my road, I'll drive at the speed I want to on it." Sadly, there is truth to this observation.  I've driven in nearly every state of the union, and no matter how much I love the state of New Mexico otherwise, its drivers are possibly the country's worst, on average... -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:36, 2 November 2009 (EST)
 * Worse than Massachusetts?? (WT-en) LtPowers 11:48, 3 November 2009 (EST)
 * Yes, although in fairness, generally not having to negotiate anything like the sheer madness of Boston roads. Boston roads combine with Massachusetts drivers to make the overall experience more painful than driving in New Mexico, in my experience, but I'll stand on my statement as regards the drivers themselves. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:41, 14 November 2009 (EST)
 * Well, I can vouch for the snow comment: we recently had a 45-minute snow storm (flurries, mainly, that were gone by the end of the day) and during the 2 hours I was driving around, I saw 4 wrecks.76.113.109.160 01:54, 23 November 2009 (EST)

Shopping
What are the criteria for including a particular store in the article ? I'd like to nominate CostPlus World Market. There are two locations in ABQ: Menaul at Carlisle and Old Airport Rd near Cottonwood Mall. They carry items from "all over the world", many of which cannot be found in other stores. It is not typical of Albuquerque (there are locations in other part of the country) but may be of great interest to travelers.76.113.109.160 02:15, 23 November 2009 (EST)

 * I think the fact that it is not unique to Albuquerque (or at least the general region) is enough reason to not put it here. I don't think a traveler to Albuquerque is going to be any more interested in a Cost Plus than say, a traveler to New York City. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 14:27, 23 November 2009 (EST)

 * OK. I saw Old World Imports on the list and thought that was a national chain. But the other "Old World Import"s in Tucson and Chicago may just share a name.

 * Looking at the website, it looks like that's strictly a local business. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 15:28, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Obvious omissions?
Shouldn't we have a caution in "Get In" about making sure to turn left? Or at least a mention in "Sleep" about the oh-so-fluffy towels? (WT-en) LtPowers 14:16, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

 * I suppose one could create a culture section in Understand for such things (similar to the literature and movie sections on the San Francisco page), but I feel like the Bugs Bunny and Weird Al references, while fun, don't really contribute to an understanding of Albuquerque, so working them in doesn't really seem worthwhile for the purposes of this guide. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 15:42, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

 * Well I wouldn't want to make it too dry and encyclopedic, like "Albuquerque in popular culture" or something like that. But surely there's some way to work in something funny?  =)  (WT-en) LtPowers 18:43, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

 * Well sure, but I wouldn't want it to just be funny, I'd want it to be relevant in some way; something that actually has something to do with the place at hand and reveals something about it. (I actually thought about working in a reference to the AMC series "Breaking Bad" at one point, but I dropped the idea.) Does Bugs Bunny forgetting to turn left here say anything about Albuquerque? If so, what? Knowing that, how would you work it in the article? (I'm not trying to be facetious here, I'm honestly asking.) (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 19:46, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

 * Just some musings on my part, I guess. Trying to get some creative juices flowing, or inspire someone.  =)  Like my comment on Talk:Pretoria.  =)  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:25, 23 September 2010 (EDT)

"Albuquerque in popular culture" should include Breaking Bad tourism. I saw Saul Goodman's office marked as an attraction on Google Maps? Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Add it, with a link to the Wikivoyage itinerary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:35, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Closed listings
This appears to be a temporary closure. I can't tell from the website whether or not it's reopening in the same location. Listing it here for now. (WT-en) Eco84 09:31, 28 November 2010 (EST)
 *

crime
Is the section on crime up to date? I have read very bad things online about the crime rate in Albuquerque. Specifically, I read that it was ranked as the #6 city in the USA for overall violent crime and the #3 city in the USA for automobile theft [citation needed]. Nicole Sharp (talk) 08:42, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Albuquerque


text:
Talk:Ales stenar

VFD Discussion
Appears to be a simple attraction rather than an actual park for which we would normally have an article (and should probably be referred to first by its English name "Ale's Stones", as it is listed on Wikipedia). I think this should probably be merged and redirected, but I'm not sure where.
 * Merge and redirect - (WT-en) texugo 02:48, 8 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Merge and redirect to Ystad where it is already listed as an attraction. --(WT-en) burmesedays 03:53, 8 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Merge and redirect. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 03:53, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Result: Merge tag added for Ystad. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:56, 15 October 2011 (EDT)

title: Talk:Ales stenar


text:
Talk:Alexandria

In reference to:

Short term lettings. If you're thinking of a more lengthly stay (a month or more), why not try renting in Alex. Perhaps surprisingly, lets are easy to come by, coming in a range of prices (from 180LE per week to over 1000LE) and states of repair! Needless to say, it's definitely worth visiting an apartment during the late afternoon* before placing any money down. Landlords/lady's tend to live in the same blocks and will be willing to haggle the rates.

What is an LE? Egyptian currency is EGP, correct?

 * Livres egyptiens, or "Egyptian pounds" in French. See Egypt. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:57, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Is the population really "Population: 74.9 million (UN, 2005). "

 * Some nitwit had copied a chunk of Egypt info. It's gone now. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:44, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Removed Diving info
I removed this because it talks about the Red Sea diving -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 09:36, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

The Red Sea coast and the Gulf of Aqaba are deservedly popular among divers, owing to their rich marine life and shipwrecks. A large variety of coral, tiny florescent fish, giant turtles, Napoleon wrasse and nurse sharks are just some of the species inhabiting the area. The main dive centers are on the Sinai Peninsular at Sharm el-Sheikh and Ras Muhammad, a national park since 1983. Equipment may be hired and training is available for all levels of ability. Near Sharm el-Sheikh, there is a famous World War II wreck, the SS Thistlegorm and the nearby Straits of Tirian host spectacular offshore reefs, as well as two more wrecks. Live-aboard packages are available from some operators. Conditions vary according to the time of year: in February and March, the extra plankton in the water attracts manta rays and in November and December, the visibility is particularly good. A twice-weekly tour for E£5 can be taken to four islands in the Red Sea, namely Abou Kizan, The Emerald, The Rocky Island and The Two Brothers. For further information, see the Where to Go section or contact the Egyptian State Tourist Office (see General Info section).
 * Note: The Red Sea coral reefs are all protected by law and persons removing ‘souvenirs’ will incur heavy fines.

More removed info
Too general for this guide on Alexandria -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 09:41, 18 August 2007 (EDT)

Nile cruises
There are numerous cruise steamers on the Nile, the majority of which provide a very high standard of service. Vessels usually carry between 50 and 100 passengers, with the facilities varying according to the size of the individual vessel. Contacting a specialist operator is recommended for choosing a Nile cruise. Normally visitors can only book the complete package through a tour operator. Traditional feluccas may also be chartered. For further information, see Nile Cruises in the Where to Go section or contact the Egyptian State Tourist Office (see General Info section).

Golf
There is a public golf club at the foot of the Giza pyramids and there is a Gary Player course at Soma Bay on the Red Sea. Most courses either adjoin or are part of hotels; for instance, the Mena House, which is 15 minutes from Cairo. Other courses include the Alexandria Sporting Club (30 minutes from Alexandria); Jolie Ville (five minutes from Sharm el-Sheikh); Royal Valley Golf Course (25 minutes from Luxor); The Steigenberger Golf Club (30 minutes from Hurghada). The Egyptian State Tourist Office can provide further information (see General Info section).

from Eat
Egyptian cuisine is excellent, combining many of the best traditions of Middle Eastern cooking, and there are both large hotel restaurants and smaller specialist ones throughout the main towns. Some of the larger hotels in Cairo and its environs have kitchens serving top quality cosmopolitan dishes. In the center of Cairo, American-style snack bars are also spreading. Restaurants have waiter service. Although Egypt is a Muslim country, alcohol is available in cafe-style bars and good restaurants. The legal drinking age is 21.

National specialties:

• Foul (bean dishes).

• Stuffed vine leaves.

• Roast pigeon (sometimes stuffed with seasoned rice).

• Grilled aubergines.

• Kebabs.

• Humus (chickpeas).

• Tahina (dip made from sesame seeds).

National drinks:

• Kahwa (thick, strong coffee).

• Shay bil na'na' (mint tea).

• Karkaday (clear, bright red drink made from hibiscus flowers).

• Aswanli (dark beer made in Aswan).

• Stella (most common beer found around Egypt).

• Sakara (another common Egyptian beer).

• Zibib (alcoholic aniseed-flavored drink).

Industry
I quote: 'Alexandria has a tiny industrial section' Borg el arab is a CITY near alexandria where alexandrians work DEDICATED to industry Most of what's south of the Lakes is industrial For anyone who still refuses to accept this please drive on the new ring road for 10 minutes and you'll see that 'tiny industrial section' is plainly.. just wrong. It has one of egypt's largest industrial sectors and probably the largest in cairo

also someone needs to mention the largest port in egypt *coff* much appreciated since I'm not a pro at editing documents like this

thanks --82.29.70.34 21:18, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

What does this mean?
"Cultural centre with mediatheque"

"Mediatheque" is not an English word. Could this French word that I don't know please be translated? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:31, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexandria


text:
Talk:Alexandroupolis

Merge
I have merged all contents of Alexandropolis and Alexandroupoli articles, which are clearly about the same one city and both of which were tagged with (with each other) for a long time, into this article. This version of the name is the most common according to an English language-only search in Google. Here is how many hits the versions get:

 * Alexandroupolis 131,000
 * Alexandropolis 53,200
 * Alexandroupoli 48,300
 * Alexandropoli 3,570

Having said that, I wouldn't oppose a move if any local or native English speaker thinks this isn't exactly the most "correct"/common name in English.—(WT-en) Vidimian 15:53, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Rooms to let for how long?
I'm moving this listing here, because for the life of me, I can't see on their website how long they let these rooms for, nor what their rates are:

I'd like to emphasize that Wikivoyage is not an apartment-listing service. Only if this place rents for 2 weeks or less can it be listed, and I find the lack of listed rates a sharp trading practice for any country in which bargaining for hotel rates isn't normally expected. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexandroupolis


text:
Talk:Algarve

Since I am new to this website, I won't attempt to make the change myself, but if you look at a map, Portugal is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean, not the Mediterranean Sea.

 * You're very right! But go ahead and make the edit! Really, it's just that easy! (WT-en) Majnoona 22:35, 30 Jul 2004 (EDT)

This is to state that I'm the owner of the copyright for the Algarve-Portal and have freely decided that the Creative Commons Attribution/Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license will apply to the portions of its text that I include in the Algarve article on Wikivoyage.
 * Juergen Algarveportal (talk) 10:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Algarve


text:
Talk:Algeciras

Hi, I'm not entirely sure about the recent edit to this page in order to make it comply with the Manual of Style, and to label it a stub. Algeciras is not a tiny town, but from a travellers perspective it has very little to hold your interest. 99 percent of people to the city are using it as a gateway to Morocco, and nothing else. The vast majority of tourists come in by bus or train, and then leave on the next (hourly) ferry out to Africa. For this reason the areas of importance are the bus station, the train station and the main coastal road where you can buy ferry tickets and walk to the ferry terminal.

Even the most detailed guidebooks on Anadlucia don't give Algeciras more than 3/4 of a page.

So when I copied and pasted the 'small town' article template to start the page, I combined the Eat, Drink and Sleep sections into one heading (funnily enough called: Eat, Drink and Sleep). This is because all the accommodation, food and drinking options used by travellers are on the one road, Avenidos de la Marina, and they are all much the muchness in terms of quality and price. Most travellers would not even use this info because they rarely stop long enough to eat, sleep or go out in Algeciras.

So I think that as it stands now (well, perhaps with addition of a map, but I'll wait for the templates to be drawn up for those...) the page has enough information to help 99 percent of people who arrive there and need to get to Africa. So for that reason I don't think it should really be called a 'stub'. It'd be nice to have one or two accommodation recommendations, but very few users will actually want them, and even then there is plenty to choose from within a small area.

Assuming that the page isn't really a stub, then this raises the question: does Wikivoyage want to have seperate headings for Eat, Drink and Sleep even when each section only has one sentence or two? I combined them into the one heading because I thought that Wikivoyage's goal was to have a print-friendly format, and combining those three headings into one for small towns made sense. This is the same approach taken by the major guidebook publishers in similar circumstances.

Perhaps in these situations, sections could be combined, and if a lot of information is added down the road, then they could be split up again.

Cheers,

(WT-en) Allyak 17:09, Aug 6, 2004 (EDT)

 * It's a great start to the article, thanks! Keep in mind that we want this guide to be useful for all travellers, not just tourists.  So if someone was visiting, for example, the new in-laws in Algeciras, one might need a hotel.  So we really would like one or two bits of hotel and eats.  Also, the article says that many folks come in for an hour or two.  Is there really nothing for them to see?

 * Secondly, the stub message just implies that the article is incomplete. Keep in mind two things: First, we really appreciate any and all work you've done, and we are not trying to imply that you haven't done enough!  Second, just because it's a stub doesn't mean you have to finish it.  Maybe next time somebody goes there they'll add it themselves.  Feel free to go work on whichever article you want to work on; it'll be more fun for you that way!

 * And thanks again for the article! -- (WT-en) Colin 17:56, 6 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * Hi Colin,

 * Seriously, there's nothing to see but smoke stacks and cranes ... it's that kinda town. :) I take your point on helping all travellers, though, but it still leaves one question unanswered, and raises a new one:

 * As I asked before, is there an official WikiTravel policy on combining multiple headings when it makes sense, there is very little information under each heading (and there is not likely to be any in the future) to aid presentation? Having a big heading with only sentence looks a bit poxy, and makes a section look incomplete, even if its not. Some villages, for instance, only have two bars, both of which double as restaurants and hotels.
 * When is an article determined to be finished for the purposes of 'destubbification' (to coin a phrase)? You say that a stub means an article is incomplete, but when is a Wikivoyage article ever complete? New info can always be added, no matter how comprehensive an article is. When do we draw the line and say an article is 'complete enough' to be destubbed?

 * Both of these questions relate to the article I've just added on Montejaque because a) I think it makes sense to combine the Eat and Drink headings as there are only 6 or so bars and restaurants in the village, and most act as both, and b) I think its complete.

 * Cheers,

 * (WT-en) Allyak 18:43, Aug 6, 2004 (EDT)

 * There's no way that I'd consider "plenty of cheap cafes and restaurants" as "complete". Names, addresses, phone numbers, identification of each place have to be there. I'd strongly recommend looking over Minot for a small city that's at about the right level of completeness -- perhaps even too much.

 * As for combining headings: I'd really rather have spaces for someone else to fill in later than have an "Eat, Drink, and Sleep" section with one person's opinion ("Nothing to see here, move along.") Collapsing headings is a way to shut off further contributions.

 * Lastly, for stubs: I think a guide passes from stub to not-stub when it treats its subject completely. This doesn't mean that the article is finished for all time, but that it covers the topic.

 * For a destination guide, I think the metric should be: could you use the destination guide as the sole tool for travel? Could you arrive in, and survive in, the destination for an appropriate amount of time (one day, two weeks, six months) and enjoy the sites and activities at the destination? We don't have a whole lot of destination guides in Wikivoyage that are at this stage of completeness, but I'd like to think that we will have a lot more at this time next year. --(WT-en) Evan 02:40, 7 Aug 2004 (EDT)

title: Talk:Algeciras


text:
Talk:Algeria

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Algeria/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

The border with Morocco is now open?
Any citations on this? I can't find any sources of information to confirm it.

The Algerian Moroccan border was closed since 2000. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria–Morocco_border I edittravelmistakes (talk) 12:04, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Ref. external links
A Wikivoyageer added the following links, which may be of use to someone wanting to research to add content to the article.

http://lexicorient.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct-frame.pl?http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/atlas/algeria02.htm Part of the Encyclopaedia of Orient. Contents: Political situation, Economy, Health & Education, Religions & Peoples, History and also information about special items and places searching by an index.

http://www.webtourist.net/countryinformation/tourist-information-about-algeria.html (Algeria city guides and Algeria tourist information)

http://www.djanet.org/ (with information about this village (South East of Argelia), the Touaregs, the Tassili, Tourism, art and culture, etc.)

Regions
It is currently not clear which provinces fall under the "metropolitan area surrounding Algiers" region. If it is just Algiers province +Boumerdes, then which provinces in that area fall under Atlas, northwest, or northeast? I've rather arbitrarily designated these boundaries in the current regions map as Central Algeria, so hopefully someone will let me know exactly where the boundaries should fall in the future. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:55, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

Warningbox
Hi, everyone. I had a conversation with Frank about the warningbox. He moved it to the beginning of "Get around" because he feels the warning is really only relevant to Saharan regions of the country, nowadays. He also suggested that it might be more appropriate to delete the warning entirely and stick it on the regional Sahara Algeria article instead, if that article doesn't already have such a warning. I'm really not up on current conditions in Algeria. Do you think the placement of the warningbox should be should be restored to the top of the article, that it should be moved to "Stay safe," that it should be removed, that it should be rephrased, or what? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed because it won't any more Aissa toumi (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

In the Get around section, as 2014 there is no threats of that kind !
in the Get around section, there is no such treats of that kind anymore, we are in 2014, 2015 coming. as my knowlodge there is no such things these times, everything is controlled by gendarms and police, i've updated the content to what's realy is now but :/. i don't like peoples saying something which is not true about my country. —The preceding comment was added by AdamDZ (talk • contribs)

 * Please don't take things personally. The prime directive of this site is to serve the traveller. I appreciate your coming here to make an argument based on your experience as an Algerian. However, before we delete terrorism warnings from the article, I think you should address recently updated warnings that are still in force, such as this one from the US State Department, last updated on August 13, 2014, which I excerpt below:

 * The Department of State urges U.S. citizens who travel to Algeria to evaluate carefully the risks posed to their personal safety. There is a high threat of terrorism and kidnappings in Algeria.  This kidnapping threat was noted in the Department of State's latest Worldwide Caution.  Although the major cities are heavily policed, attacks could still potentially take place.  The majority of terrorist attacks, including bombings, false roadblocks, kidnappings, and ambushes occur in areas of the country east and south of Algiers.

 * Al-Qaida in the Lands of the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa (MUJAO) are both active in and operate throughout Algeria. In January 2013, an AQIM-linked organization “Those Who Sign in Blood”, led by Moktar Belmoktar, attacked a gas production facility near In Amenas, Algeria.  The group held dozens of western and Algerian hostages for four days; this attack resulted in the deaths of dozens of hostages, including three U.S. citizens.  Mokhtar Belmokhtar remains a threat and is at large in the region.

 * Algerian and Tunisian security forces are conducting ongoing security operations along the Algeria/Tunisia border in the Chaambi mountains area, south of Souk Ahras. There is a threat in this area due to the presence of extremists.

 * Best,

 * Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes that's right but this only happen in the Sahara where the terrorists find it the best place to hide plus our forces have done a heroic job and it save all the homicide Aissa toumi (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

 * For whatever it's worth, this is from the latest US State Department travel warning:

 * The Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens against travel to the Kabylie region and remote areas of southern and eastern Algeria. This replaces the Travel Warning for Algeria dated August 26, 2015, to update information on the current security situation in Algeria.

 * So there is no State Dept. travel warning for the rest of the country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Visa restrictions
It is not true if foreigner have Israeli stamps in it's passport he can't obtain Algerian visa. But of course, better not to have such stamps. --Visem (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * If you know this, please correct any misinformation in the article. Is this from experience, or do you have a source for this info? No need for a citation in the article, but some corroboration of some kind here on the talk page is a good thing for the record. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:07, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Algeria has no history
The is no history in the understand section --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I just noticed that. The "Understand" section is terrible! We should mention something about the ancient history of what's now Algeria. It was part of the Roman Empire, and doubtless before that, the Carthaginian Empire. And what about the tribes who were there before that? There's also the very important fact of it being not merely an Arab country but one populated by many Berbers, whose ancestors were there before the Arab invasion. Something should probably be mentioned, too, about the history of dictatorship in the country (at least it's good for visitors to know that it hasn't been a liberal democracy), and its previous problems with the Armed Islamic Group, who were defeated in bloody fighting, to most Algerians' relief. It also has to be of some interest that Algeria, under Boumedienne, was an important player in the Non-Aligned Organization and maintained friendly ties with the West, the USSR, China, the PLO, and various other terrorist (or if you prefer, national liberation) organizations, and often mediated hostage crises and such. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:59, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Currency, time and spelling conventions
Below is a proposed infobox to let readers know which formatting conventions to use in Wikivoyage articles. Do you agree with these proposals? If you have direct knowledge of what is most commonly used in the country, please let us know. Ground Zero (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved to the top of this page. Ground Zero (talk) 04:05, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Banner
Title. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:44, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but I'm not sure I'm super keen on any of these. If any I have a slight preference for #1.
 * Banners 0 and 4, as panoramas, have a fisheye effect.
 * Banner 1 is dull.
 * Banner 2 has potential, but the rock in the front of the picture is not shown in full, which to me looks awkward.
 * Banner 3 could be almost any historic site and, IMHO, lacks quality for a country banner.
 * Mostly the banner images you choose are excellent, so I think it was just the overwhelming photo library that made this job difficult. I can look for some more banners. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:32, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I've proposed three alternatives. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 17:41, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

 * 1 alt. gets my vote Tai123.123 (talk) 17:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

 * Alternative 1, Banner 1, and then I can't pick between Alternative 3 and Banner 4. But Alternative 1 seems like the clear winner to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I like alternative one. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:36, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * ترامواي سطيف.jpg

title: Talk:Algeria


text:
Talk:Alghero

Original information
The following was removed from the main article.

You can fly in alghero with some of the main low cost airlines: Bologna	-	Italy	-	AlpiEagles	, Venice	-	Italy	-	AlpiEagles	, Barcelona	-	Spain	-	Ryanair	, Frankfurt	-	Germany	-	Ryanair	, London - Stansted	-	United Kingdom	-	Ryanair	, Pisa (Florence)	-	Italy	-	Ryanair

Source:Routehunter

I removed quite a bit of info that was taken from. -- (WT-en) Fastestdogever 09:32, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Alghero


text:
Talk:Algiers

Emirates does not fly to Algiers...

title: Talk:Algiers


text:
Talk:Aliabad

Ali Abad is the main local business hub for Hunza Valley.

Contributors
--(WT-en) Samsaleem 06:12, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Aliabad