text:
Talk:Hitchhiking in Japan

I just Hitchhiked across Europe to Croatia from England through 10 different countries, then Hitchhiked over land to Russia, and then onto Monolgia via the Transiberian! I had to come to Japan by a flight because my Visa for China was screwed! I can say for certain that this is the best country I have ever Hitchhiked in, I have been in the country for 3 days and managed to get from Narita, to Tokyo and then to Nagooya and then to Osaka! I have stayed with Japanese families whose hospitality was just incredible. I'm now gonna hitchhike to the south soon. I would recommend this country to anyone! Especially hitchhiking, use common sense and you will have the time of your life!

If anyone needs advice, my email is Punderscoreturko@googlemail.com —The preceding comment was added by  58.85.202.99 (talk • contribs) 06:12, 24 June 2008

Hope it's helpful!
(WT-en) laqueesciousb

I'm going to Japan in less than a month and hope this site's resources will help me through. Thanks for the info. How can I get the kanji that is posted here? It doesn't come up and I'd like to know what to write on the signs. I'll let you know how the whole thing goes. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Laqueesciousb (talk • contribs) 00:26, 22 May 2007

Nice article! :) (WT-en) Guaka 06:27, 11 Nov 2004 (EST)

 * Not as nice as actually hitching in Japan =). I was thinking though that maybe the "hitching out of Tokyo" part should be moved onto its own page?  It's too large to integrate in the main Tokyo article, but isn't relevant for all of Japan either. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:30, 11 Nov 2004 (EST)

 * I thought it was a great article too! Thanks! (WT-en) Lionfish 00:10, 04 Apr 2005 (BST)

Great resource & just came back from hitchhiking
I just came back from hitchhiking from Tokyo to Soyamisaki and back. With resource from wikivoyage and Will Ferguson's book - The Hitchhiker's Guide to Japan, and a Road Atlas Japan published by Shobunsha (its my orange hitchhiking bible).

It is my first hitchhiking experience and its amazing one too. —The preceding comment was added by 59.129.16.180 (talk • contribs) 11:38, 11 September 2005

Good article, one suggestion
Perhaps the section "Getting off in Tokyo" should be renamed... --153.104.16.114 00:18, 18 March 2006 (EST)

 * Good call. Changed to "Getting out in Tokyo" -- (WT-en) bulliver 00:46, 18 March 2006 (EST)

 * I just changed it to "getting into tokyo"... I hope I wasn't misunderstanding the intention of that section. I actually kinda like "getting off in tokyo", we aren't shy about humor here – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 14:42, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

 * No, it is specifically about how to leave the city as a hitchhiker, which is quite difficult. Getting into the city is far easier, as your driver will come off the expressway at some point and then you can just head to the nearest station. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:51, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

 * Never mind, you were talking about the 2nd section, not the first, and I'm an idiot. Changed back to "Getting into Tokyo". (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:23, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

Hard to get to the Kohoku PA!
Really a good article, I hope it inspires some people to hitchhike in this great country! Just getting out of Tokyo is really hard! The Kohoku PA is very easy to find with the desciption given in the text- but there are fences all over the place. Probably you can find your way at night, but in the daytime there is even a guard at the backdoor to the street.. about 500 Meters from there is an interchange, where I got a lift to Kyoto after 2 hours waiting. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Marius (talk • contribs) 14:02, 30 October 2006

 * Hmm, I had no problem jumping the fence, but it's been quite a few years. I've also found Japanese highway officials fairly sympathetic to hitchhikers, although I too would have hesitated to approach an actual guard.... (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:22, 30 October 2006 (EST)

 * Did it a few days ago (Feb 2007), it's pretty simple. The gate is only 1.5m or so, easy to jump over. We didn't come across any guards or anything like that, we just hopped over in broad daylight. Got a few funny looks, but nothing more. Make sure you aim for the right side of the road. One side (going into Tokyo) is near impossible to get into, but if you cross below the expressway and find the other PA then you're sorted, maybe this was the issue...? —The preceding comment was added by  58.5.190.186  (talk • contribs) 10:34, 21 February 2007

 * I went to this PA today (Nov 2008), and either things have changed or nobody has tried walking along the back of the PA to find... a permanently open entrance for the public for people catching the highway buses! No need to jump a fence, no overzealous rubbish collectors-cum-security guards... I've updated the article, and if you are keen the new Google Street View of Tokyo area includes a shot of the entrance along the back of the PA. —The preceding comment was added by 118.12.148.248 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 9 November 2008

hitching to Nagoya
I just hitched from the chuo route (why I choose that one I have no idea) and neither gate was locked. I suffered a few long waits when either nobody stopped, or everyone was going not very far up the road. Eventually I made it after getting picked up by a bus. Yes, a bus. At a service station place I was standing at the entrance holding a sign saying Nagoya and I was invited onto a bus filled with...penshioners returning from a weekend in the mountains. They kept giving me alcohol and stuff. Really random. (WT-en) Tomorrowboy 07:56, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

 * That's hitchhiking in Japan for you! (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:28, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Tokyo to Niigata & Sado Island, Highways #17 & #8
The main article here is good with a lot of good pointers, but I never hitch-hiked on an expressway or at a rest area.

Looking at a Google map of Japan, I'm surprised at how little has changed over the past 20 years. January of 1990, living in Ikebukuro, I took a JR train to Omiya vicinity, and walked over to highway #17. I walked north along the highway, with my thumb out as I walked. When a car passed, I turned so they could see my Gaijin face and thumbed with my left hand while I walked backwards a few steps. After a few cars passed, one stopped and took me as far as Maebashi. I stayed at a ryokan that night (cost me about 4,000 yen as I remember) and started out the next morning. I remember thumbing near Maebashi and a guy stopped who didn't want to give me a ride because his van was full with several other passengers, but he handed me a 10,000 yen bill. I took it, but I really didn't expect or need anything like that!

Back on highway 17 (Mikuni highway) I caught a ride most of the way to Niigata, but had to thumb once more on highway #8 in pretty cold and snowy weather. Somebody finally stopped who would take me into Niigata, near the Sado Island Ferry terminal. (No way I know to beat the Ferry.) After visiting Sado Island, I got back on #8 and caught a ride with a young guy who took me to his family's house in the mountains to eat baked mochi (it was still close to New Year's) and stay overnight. In the morning, he drove me down to the highway where I caught a ride with a businessman who got on an expressway (Kanetsu?) and took me all the way back into northern Tokyo. (I can't remember exactly where I got out, but we covered a lot of ground very fast, and it was simple to get home to Ikebukuro from that point.)

After checking the price of a JR railpass, I'm thinking about hitch-hiking again if I visit Japan this summer. I'm 63, but a Gaijin is still a Gaijin. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Galtroark (talk • contribs) 23:11, 7 January 2010

West Japan
Added a tonne of info on West Japan hitching. Im pretty new to Wikivoyage, so please feel free to do all the stylising editing on it as Im not 100% down with the conventions yet. :D (WT-en) Snave 00:36, 11 July 2010 (EDT)

Thanks!
Used the tips on this guide to hitchhike all the way from the northernmost to the southernmost tip. Everybody who contributed to this guide, thanks! Uploaded three videos onto youtube about my experience, starting here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpKZu3jQGVM. Unfortunately it's all in Dutch but I'm sure you all will get the idea. Anybody considering hitchhiking in Japan: DO IT! ~Sado —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 77.248.224.49 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 26 September 2010

title: Talk:Hitchhiking in Japan


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Talk:Hitchhiking phrasebook

There's a hitchhiking phrasebook floating on the web, but it's not clearly free. It's also not wiki. So, I just started one here :)

Don't really know what format is the best though. (WT-en) Guaka 09:59, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Since this will not only be used by native English speakers, and since the normal way of explaining the pronunciation on the English Wikivoyage is butt ugly I propose to use phonetic transcription... (WT-en) Guaka 09:26, 3 Oct 2005 (EDT)

 * That "butt ugly" stuff is phonetic transcription. What exactly are you proposing as an alternative? (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:30, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

I was also confused what to do with diacritical signs. I used ch for a sound like in children, sh for a sound like in ship, and zh for a sound like in measure. BTW, I dont know czech but I can understand a little since its a similar language - the translation of the 3. is a bit liberal, its something like Great, can I drive with you? :) aryah 83.131.132.218 13:47, 22 March 2006 (EST)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hitchhiking phrasebook


text:
Talk:Hitchin

Hitchin is nice enough, but only just about an attraction within Hertfordshire, let alone the UK.

Are the shops in the buy section really necessary? - they are just pretty standard shops you get anywhere in the UK. Colanders is quite a good local shop, but I am not sure that even it is worth mentioning. (WT-en) Daniel Cowan 13:31 (GMT) 15 March 2005

No 12 Restaraunt
Anyone been here? what are peoples thoughts?

title: Talk:Hitchin


text:
Talk:Hluhluwe-iMfolozi Park

Hi, moved it here, because the Hluhluwe/Umfolozi Park is not a National Park. (WT-en) Felix

Um, did you really mean to use a slash there...? (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:18, 4 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Yep, its the official way (as long as I know) and the most common way of writing the name. (WT-en) Felix

 * I'll take the liberty of renaming it to Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park, because the slash makes baby Jesus cry. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:36, 2 March 2006 (EST)
 * The official spelling of the park's name has been changed to Hluhluwe–iMfolozi Park My Gussie (talk) 04:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Please go ahead and change the name of the article. Registered users can do that, right? Or does it have to be an admin or something? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hluhluwe-iMfolozi Park


text:
Talk:Hobart

When I was in Hobart last year the Antarctic Attraction at Salamanca Place was in Financial difficulties and I have since learnt that it has closed down having gone bankrupt. No news on any replacement as yet.

Drink additions 2/5/2006
Added some more pubs to the Drink section. I'll try to add more to this section if time permits. A couple of the snazziest venues are missing from the Bars section - the Quarry and the Telegraph.

Restaurant section could use considerable improvement. For a city of its size, Hobart (I'm not a local, by the way), has a fairly impressive drinking/dining scene.

Hobart markets
Salamanca Markets operates on Saturdays. Island Markets at Moonah are the largest indoor markets in Tasmania - open Friday to Sunday.

Banner proposal
I would like to propose the following banner for this page —The preceding comment was added by Zevensoft (talk • contribs)

 * This is the current banner: Bannerhobart.jpg

 * I think that the photo in daylight provides more information, and the night picture isn't so spectacular that that overrides the criterion of being more informative. Also, please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post. Thanks a lot, and thanks for making more banners and offering them for discussion! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:38, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

 * The night banner has not been cropped 7:1. It also does not have enough resolution to be cropped to 7:1 and meet the minimum banner size, as it would be 1365 * 195. I also prefer the daylight view. However the photo, or maybe another that is a more usual shape, could be added to the article - in See - The stars. Thanks for offering the suggestion. AlasdairW (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
I have previously created an alternative banner for this article (which was initially created for the parallel article at the Hebrew Wikivoyage, but I decided to suggest we'll use it here at the English Wikivoyage article as well). Which banner do you prefer that we'll use on the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting one. I'm honestly not inclined to either banner. I think I prefer the new one, but it looks a bit too rural, considering how off in the distance the city is. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 14:50, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's another suggestion: Ground Zero (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Definitely prefer the third. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 06:09, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * My preference is for #3. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:34, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Mine is #3 SHB2000 (talk) - The year of the 2000 Sydney Olympics 05:01, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Banner 3. AlasdairW (talk) 22:02, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Banner #3 here as well. The 2nd banner would actually be perfect for the Greater Hobart article I would like to write soon. JTdale (talk) 11:08, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hobart


text:
Talk:Hoboken

''This page is for discussing the corresponding article or guide. For more about using talk pages check out Project:Using talk pages.''

Comments
This article contains serious inaccuracies that would do a real disservice to a visitor.

Take the Lincoln Tunnel, for instance, and keep right? You'll wind up in West New York, miles from Hoboken. The section on the PATH train was simply uninteligible, at least to this frequent rider, and the use of the term "subway" is particularly troubling because if a visitor refers to the PATH that way, others may think he is looking for a subway and he will get bad directions.

I've done what I can to correct those issues, but there's no doubt plenty more.

Well, my NJ guru tells me that it is in fact possible to get to Hoboken as described. So I'm correcting what I wrote, and adding more tips.--(WT-en) Beenthere 23:07, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Hoboken


text:
Talk:Ho Chi Minh City

Shouldn't this page be at Saigon, per the article naming conventions? Very few travelers call it HCM City, and even official signs and train schedules say "Saigon". I think Saigon is the most common English name for this place. --(WT-en) Evan 16:30, 10 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * Yeah, even though (as I recall) I'm the one who started this page as HCM, I think we should just go with Saigon.

 * Technically, HCM and Saigon are a bit different -- HCM is a municipality which encompasses the district of Saigon. So we could have an HCM article and a Saigon article under it, but I don't think that's necessary. -- (WT-en) Paul Richter 20:10, 10 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * I'll cast a dissenting vote here: HCMC is the official name of the city and we should respect that in the title. In the content Saigon can also be used where applicable. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:55, 10 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * "Official" doesn't factor. We use the most common English name for article titles, not the official name. See Project:article naming conventions for discussions about this. --(WT-en) Evan 02:28, 11 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * I'm maybe a bit paranoid and over-reacting but I think because the America and some scum bags(note, only SOME, not all) in California don't like the name Ho Chi Minh City (that's why after 30 years IATA code is still "SGN" instead of "HCM"). And to Evan, on the URL to naming convention "This version of Wikivoyage is in English (but see language versions of Wikivoyage), so article names should be in English. If a place doesn't have a name originally in English.." and the official name of the place right NOW is Ho Chi Minh City. Also HCMC beat Saigon on my Google News test (majority of saigon news is miss saigon, beer saigon, or "US Embassy in Saigon, South Vietnam, at 4 am April 30, 1975. It’s the holiday season"..,etc, not the place itself. And also majority if not ALL news services such as CBC, BBC, AP,etc use the word Ho Chi Minh City, not Saigon.

 * I'd be interested to see some numbers on HCM City being the most common English name for the city. Also, please, don't bandy about the "official" name; it doesn't factor at all. See why Wikivoyage doesn't use official names for details. --(WT-en) Evan 22:09, 11 Dec 2004 (EST)

 * Update: I did a search on Google News got 1200+ hits for "Ho Chi Minh City", about 1000+ for Saigon (factoring out "Miss Saigon", "Beer Saigon", and "Little Saigon"). Most of the other hits talked about the "fall of Saigon", which would be historically accurate. Anyways, I think that's definitely good enough to leave this article here -- but we should make sure to have a redirect. --(WT-en) Evan 22:15, 11 Dec 2004 (EST)

Weasel coffee
I just googled and found some pages that say that the coffee fruit is eaten by weasels, not rodents. In Indonesia they have kopi luwak, which is passed through civets. Civets and weasels are both carnivores, not rodents. -(WT-en) phma 20:10, 10 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Visas
You can actually obtain a visa at the border if you are a citizen of Sweden, Norway or Denmark and if you intend to stay for less than 15 days. I just did it myself today (Nov 27, 2010) so I am 100% sure it works for at least Swedish citizens coming in by plane. Perhaps it is different crossing the border by land?

Closed listings
The following listings have closed. Should they reopen or relocate, please re-add to the appropriate article:

 * Heart Of Darkness, 17b Le Thanh Ton. Based on the Cambodian equivalent, this is a friendly mid-range bar. Broadly a dance-centric "teacher-friendly" expat bar, but plays to all-comers.

Renaming of Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City
Until recently, the article said:

 * Saigon was officially renamed Ho Chi Minh City on May 1st 1975.

This was changed to:

 * Saigon was officially renamed Ho Chi Minh City in June of 1976.

WikiPedia:Ho_Chi_Minh_City says:

 * On May 1, 1975, after the fall of South Vietnam, the now ruling communist government renamed the city after the alias of their leader, Ho Chi Minh (chu nom: 胡志明).

So I attempted a compromise:

 * Saigon was renamed Ho Chi Minh City after the Fall of Saigon in 1975

That was changed back, so then I tried:

 * Following the Fall of Saigon in 1975, Saigon was renamed Ho Chi Minh City

Now, the following change has just been made and reverted :

 * As from June of 1976, the Government of Vietnam decided to change the name of Saigon-Gia Dinh city into Hochiminh city. It's so stupid that someone always states that "Following the Fall of Saigon in 1975" as in this website; if you're a resident of Saigon, you have to know that.

For me at least, "dating" the change with respect to directly related major events/circumstances seems more important than knowing exactly what day of the week it was (especially when it was 30 years ago).

Suggestions welcome. ~ 203.144.143.4 04:13, 23 January 2008 (EST)

Food Prices
130'000 dong is £4, there is no way that's budget in Saigon. You can get food for 30'000 dong in places like the Sinh Cafe, and pretty much all the restaurants we went to in Saigon, even near the Continental we only spent 60k dong for a meal. This was in September 2007 (WT-en) Eraserhead1 16:43, 4 March 2008 (EST)

Tourists/Locals in bars section
Who separated the bars section? It's bad enough just segregating tourists and locals, but to have done such a bad editing job of it. It's embarrasing.

Political debacle
In the Museum of Vietnamese History listing there has been an edit war over this phrase... "unfortunately they are accompanied by signage which is both in poor English and full of risible Marxist distortions. Read up on Vietnamese history first or you'll have no idea what you're looking at." Please discuss any changes to the phrase here, before this turns into a mindless edit war. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:43, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

 * What??? Having been I can confirm the "risible Marxist distortions" do not exist. IF noting how much the country suffered during the 'Vietnam' (or 'American' war) is risible & Marxist then I really wonder about Wikivoyage, and whatever barrow pushing is going on. In fact the signs & guides are very restrained in what they could say. I hope other peopel will keep their political opinions to themselves and just report what may be of use to visitors. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 222.68.248.91 (talk • contribs)

 * Part of the problem here is that the phrase "risible Marxist distortions" looks troublingly like good travel writing, and that its removal looks motivated by either politics or a misunderstanding of what travel writing is supposed to be. That and the fact that the original writer of said phrase was someone who was actually making a lot of positive contributions to the site... --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:42, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

There is no need for discussion. There is no constrovercy. This is because these signs do not exist. Maybe they did. BUT THEY DO NOT NOW. Please do not revert back to previous content. If WIkitravel refuses to up-to-date contribution then it is a very low quality, inaccurate & useless. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 219.141.183.162 (talk • contribs)

 * When there is disagreement, then there is need for discussion. That's just how a wiki works.  The problem is that we get a lot of well-meaning edits from contributors seeking to remove (neuter) text that might be seen in anyway controversial.  Instead of just removing the offending text, why not try replacing it with something just as lively.  --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:00, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

 * On VirtualTourist, a couple of the reviews (from as far back as 2006) note that this is the exception to the rule among HCMC museums, in that it's clear of propaganda. The printed guidebooks I've skimmed also don't have any mention of it. I'd suggest we leave it out — other HCMC museums are so full of said distortions that the original contributor may have conflated the history museum with another. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:33, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

Thank you Gorilla. I am amazed that other people who have not visited the museum consider they are in a position to comment on what is present. I understand Wikivoyage wants people to contribute, and surely those with first hand experience must be valued. Having been to the museum just under 3 weeks I ago there was nothing that could be described as risible, marxist or distortions. I will change the article now.

 * Yes, I think this is the definitely the right decision - I'd agree with the article at that it is definitely one of the better museums in terms of content and guiding people through the history of the country, and it would be a shame to put visitors off completely.

Hair Salons
Under the list of things to Do are hair salons. There are a handful of "beauty salons" on or near Bui Thi Xuan St. in District 1 that appear like car show rooms filled with young women in tight dresses sitting around reading magazines, but not cutting hair. I inquired with a guide and also a cab driver and was told that one could get a hair cut at these establishments as an opening to something illegal. I'm wondering if this should be appended in the article to reflect this "confirmed" observation.

 * According to the Project:Sex tourism policy, it's not our job to list brothels, but I've added a note. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:56, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Shouldn't the "Happy Ending Massage" parlor be removed then? 220.255.7.235 11:07, 22 February 2010 (EST)

Saigon River
This listing was recently removed by an anon user, anyone know if it should? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 10:16, 27 May 2010 (EDT)

 * The Saigon River. Believe it or not, the Saigon river is for swimming! Many a traveler rave to their friends and family about this opportunity to have fun with the locals. It is considered rude to done a traditional bathing suit; instead the custom is to wear jeans or slacks and a shirt or blouse - essentially you should look like you just finished work and really want to go for a swim. The park in front of the Renaissance Hotel offers nice views and access to the river. Make sure you know how to cross the road before attempting to get there. Expect to encounter some beggars in the park.

Apartments by the month were removed
I had added a section under "Sleep" for monthly apartments. I've lived in HCMC for 4 months and found searching for apartments to be difficult and the least available resource on the internet. I added the following apartment that I have stayed at which caters to travelers/foreign guests. It was deleted though, is there a reason for this? I would love more information like this to be available on wikivoyage personally.

Great apartment catering to foreigners. About 10 minutes outside of Dist 1 (far side of Dist 3, easy to get to). They have a gym, rooftop garden, laundry. Great rooms. Prices as of late 2010: $300 for single room, $500 for 1 bdrm w/ kitchen (very nice rooms), and $700ish for larger rooms.

Airport Taxi
Actually there is no need to panic when taking a taxi from HCMC airport: if you do not mind paying USD 11 for a ride to the city center, select one of the taxi stands on the arrival side, between the customs and the exit. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) JeanLouisV (talk • contribs)

Yellow pages at it's best
I already did some cleanup on this page, but there is still a horrible amount of irrelevant small shops, food stores (sometimes even without address) and so on. So either this page should be split up in some district pages like for example Bangkok, or the lists should be cleaned from the less relevant or interesting options. E.g. entries for supermarkets or coffee chains are quite irrelevant imho. Some cleanup would be fast an painless, but splitting it would probably be better in the long run. —The preceding comment was added by Ml31415 (talk • contribs)

 * I think both of your ideas are good and necessary! We should split HCMC into districts, while also removing a lot of the extraneous listings and garbage. It's unfortunate that a lot of our Asian city articles get clogged up with this sort of stuff. Are you a Ho Chi Minh local that may be able to help define the district borders? I just came back from visiting there a month ago, but didn't manage to formulate a thorough understanding of the city's neighbourhoods and divisions. JamesA  >talk 07:53, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

 * No, I'm just a fellow traveller currently hanging around in Vietnam for a while. So I'd be fine to do the cleanup, but with separating the districts I'm afraid I can't help. But maybe it would already be enough to start with some additional "District 1" page, which would probably cover most of what had do be split in districts. Pages for other districts, or group of districts could follow, when someone familiar with HCMC enough finds some spare time.

 * Well it's great to have you onboard on this wiki! When splitting districts, we usually do them all at once and decide on all the districts together. So if we were to split off District 1, we'd have to split off the whole of HCMC. There's no reason we can't, though, as there's a lot of resources online, as well as the official divisions. JamesA  >talk 12:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

 * When I see it right, there are 19 inner districts and 5 outer districts. So what you suggest would be, to split the current article in 24 town-template things. I'm not sure if this would be wise, as in that case the majority of the new articles would be empty or nearly empty, and anything that would have been put to one of these nearly empty things would be kind of lost and invisible, if everybody only clicks on district one, as there is the main action, but the one or two also relevant destinations in neighbouring districts won't be seen anymore, even if they would be just a footwalk away. So I think splitting it into a bunch of subpages (center, south, ...) would be great, but I think splitting it into 24 would only make it even less usable. Ml31415✉ (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Reliability of Taxis
I see Vinasun is listed as one of the two reliable companies, alongside Mai Linh.

About two weeks ago, a Vinasun driver turned a 2.8km ride into a 5km one for me. A Mai Linh driver made the same trip a few days later in the predicted 2.8km (Airport to Thien Vu hotel.)

I realize this is an isolated incident, but seeing Vinasun listed as a reliable company when they scammed me (Yes, I'm certain it was really Vinasun, not an impostor) feels misleading to me.

Lee Hostel Home For Backpackers
Should we delete the listing per Avoid negative reviews or leave the warning up as helpful to travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:50, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Medical services
Moving the listings below off the article page as they appear to be more advertising business rather than health services for travellers. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

 * As the business listings remained on the talk page for over a year without anyone stepping forward to justify their inclusion in the article, and have become a target for touting, I've removed them. Talk pages are no more a place for touting than are articles. They remain in the history in the event anyone wants to argue for them to be restored to the article. Ground Zero (talk) 00:09, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Air quality
As the local news rolled around this, the air quality here is a hot topic, especially the city is ranked 12th in the world with 157 US AQI in Airvisual here https://www.airvisual.com/vietnam/ho-chi-minh-city. Should we add this and where should we add this to? Thanks. Keranzy (talk) 02:36, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * "Stay safe", given the absence of a "Stay healthy" section (which some people think is not an option in Big city article template, anyway). Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Banner
Perhaps it's time we should update the banner to be something more attractive. Perhaps we can use one of the old French colonial buildings like this one to make a new banner. What do people think?

This is an example of a building we could use, I think:

The dog2 (talk) 15:07, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the People's Committe Hall, which is the building in the first article in the article. I think the current banner is not a good representation of HCMC today -- maybe some years ago, but not now. Ground Zero (talk) 15:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Some alternatives:

Ground Zero (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd prefer the latter two. Ho Chi Minh City is still a bustling city with lots of motorbikes, but I don't think that is a good banner for a travel article, since people don't generally visit a place just to see motorbikes buzzing around. The skyline picture is nice as it represents Ho Chi Minh City well as an up and coming global city that is developing rapidly, while the old South Vietnam presidential palace is one of the must visit attractions when you come. The dog2 (talk) 16:18, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Great suggestions. My first choice is the fountain, followed by the skyline, but any of the three would be better than the current banner. (Caveat: I've never been to Ho Chi Minh City and don't know much about it.) The current banner is aesthetically pleasing, though – maybe we could use it in some other article, like in Working abroad as a more interesting depiction of commuting than the banner that's there now. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:51, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't been to Vietnam, but my choices are #2 and then #1. I might prefer the existing banner to #3. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The old South Vietnam presidential palace (Banner 3) is a really beautiful building, inside and out, if you like modernist architecture. It was a highlight for me of visiting HCMC, but it is hard to capture in a 7:1 photograph. I agree with The dog2 that HCMC is a modern and rapidly growing city, so the skyline might be the best representation of that. The government wants to demolish the old quarters and replace them with skyscrapers, so images of Old Saigon aren't representative. Ground Zero (talk) 21:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * 2, 1 and 3 for me. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:45, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * So based on the comments here, I guess banner 2 will be the best compromise then? The dog2 (talk) 19:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think so. Ground Zero (talk) 00:01, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ replaced. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:03, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi, guys. I'm sorry to tell you that the current banner was cropped from a copyvio file and will be deleted on Commons soon. 0x0a (talk) 12:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Replacement banner
With #2 being deleted, what are our choices for a replacement? My choice is: #1, #3, current. Ground Zero (talk) 13:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Mine would be #3, #1, current. The dog2 (talk) 13:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

 * 1, 3, current. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1 is my favorite of the three. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1, 0, 3. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 20:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Based on these votes from editors who participated in the last discussion, I've replaced the banner with #1. If other editors weigh in on behalf of #3, we can change it later. Ground Zero (talk) 21:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Article out-of-date
I need to update Ho Chi Minh City article in the next days. I ask for somebody to check my edits there. Claude van der Grift (talk) 07:00, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Sure. Will check your edits. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

dublicate sight
The "See" number 2 and 7 covers the same sight. Is somebody good in merging text? :) 80.187.74.187 22:00, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you? :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:43, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

 * meh. I gave my best – unknown user (now, UTC)
 * I have to echo what Ikan Kekek mentioned. Why not just Plunge forward? If it doesn't seem idiomatic to me, I'll take a stab at copyediting it, but it doesn't hurt to try. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 07:58, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Districts
HCMC is a huge city and the sheer amount of content is starting to demand we create districts for it here as well. Anybody care to take a stab at districts? Jpatokal (talk) 07:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ho Chi Minh City


text:
Talk:Hogenakkal

Which is better?

Hogenakkal Or Shivasamudram?

title: Talk:Hogenakkal


text:
Talk:Hoi An

Train vs bus
Has the road ceased to be awful, or why was this deleted? "Note the road to Nha Trang is awful and the trip takes all day; it is much better to take a train." (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:50, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
 * I assume the road has been fixed, because I didn't notice any disrepair. It's in the same condition as the roads between all the other major cities in Vietnam. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:46, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

One-man gas stations
I've deleted the lecture about supporting roadside pumps instead of Shell and Exxon. That's all well and good, but you have absolutely no idea where the gas is coming from, and I gather it's not uncommon for them to get it from eg. rusting car hulks in wrecking yards or garages. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:32, 14 April 2008 (EDT)

Hoi An's motorbike edit wars
These have been going on for years, and I am sure I am not the only one who is fed up with it all. Anymore messing with these and I think blanket blacklisting of every single mischief-maker is in order. It is hard to figure who is doing most of the screwing, but motorbiketours hoian dot com has already been blacklisted, and none of the phone numbers being edit warred over now correspond to their website. http://www.hoianeasyriderstour.com seems to be the genuine listing and Nam is contact as per their website. Sadly there is no phone number given on their website for cross checking. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:23, 9 August 2011 (EDT)

Suit Guide Prices
I think we are seeing more than $80 USD for a suit with silk lining, I'm going to edit some dates next to these prices when I've a moment.
 * I was thinking I might have a go at editing the 'buy' section a bit so that its easier to use, and put in some guide prices, I'll try and put some guide prices based on what my native friends tell me one should pay --(WT-en) TheAnimus 20:03, 11 Feb 2012

Bicycle tour listings
Hi, everyone. I'm guessing people feel bicycle tours are sufficient added value to be listed under the Wikivoyage tour agency policy? But even if so, what tone is acceptable? I'm tempted to delete listings for touting, but perhaps it will work better to edit them, and I may have the chance to come back later and give it a shot, but I'd be delighted if any of you would like to try first. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:47, 4 June 2012 (EDT)

Prices change
Like most countries, prices change in Vietnam.

Is it helpful from the traveller's stance to remove date information from prices?

(I use this diff. only to give a concrete example of what I am talking about - it's clear that, almost in every other way, that edit series improved our article and corrected spelling, grammar, style and MoS errors.)

The arguments for removal are, presumably:
 * 1) the prose looks better
 * 2) the prose is then shorter
 * 3) our guide looks more authoritative when readers can't see just how out of date some of the prices are

Arguments against removal include:
 * 1) the prose looks more authoritative and reliable
 * 2) in the on-line version, we have almost unlimited space (the print version matters and, when printing out a hard copy, readers may not want this date information - could a template with a print dates/don't print dates toggle solve this dichotomy and also, if it included hidden categories, help with highlighting out-dated guides?)
 * 3) when readers can see just how out of date some of the prices are, it encourages casual edits (these casual editors may then become "hooked" regular contributors - that's how I started on Wiki's)
 * 4) helping travellers avoid making fruitless journeys to accommodation /restaurants /ferries /etc that closed years ago

--W. Franke-mailtalk 18:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Date information should not be removed for the reasons you state. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

 * OK, if it is the will of the people I will stop removing date info. Speaking for myself and others I have spoken with, as a traveler I need ballpark pricing info: "is it bigger than a breadbox?". Most know that prices change, always upwards. If we are going to include price/date info, is there a preferred format? Seligne (talk) 23:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

 * There are only two of us who have commented so far, Seligne, so I wouldn't say "it is the will of the people" yet. I'd welcome your comments, because we all know that you do more productive work on South East Asian articles than anyone else.

 * Have I summarised the three "pro-removal" reasons fairly? Are there some I've missed?

 * I don't know that there's any "preferred format" except that it should obviously meet the guidelines of tdf.

 * What do you think of the template idea? --W. Frankemailtalk 01:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Preferred format would be just to put the date in parentheses. I wouldn't suggest that it has to be put everywhere; for example, you may not want to check every single hotel rate listing. I just wouldn't delete any dates that have been inserted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

 * I think that not all prices are of equal importance. Knowing the price of a litre of gas/petrol is of some value, but knowing the price of a hotel can be a real time and money saver. Thus, I think that adding a date to the sleep template, especially if there is no URL for the venue, might be of real value. All other things being equal, I am a diehard ISO date format (YYYY-MM-DD) guy. Seligne (talk) 08:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

My Son
Hi, everyone. User:Neotarf seems to be arguing that because My Son is a day trip from Hoi An, it should be a "See" listing in this article as well as a "Go next" destination. My argument is that it can't be both, and that if he thinks it shouldn't have its own article, he should argue for the My Son article to be merged here. My guess is that, since the My Son article is pretty well developed and not short, such a merger proposal would be likely to fail. But perhaps it's the right thing to do. As I haven't been to Vietnam, I don't have my own opinion about the wisdom of a merger, except to wonder about the length of the content that would be merged. Your views, everyone? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:28, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Both of these articles are bloated and almost totally useless to the traveler. There are three things to do in Hoi An: take a one-hour bus ride to My Son, walk around the old town by the river, and go to the beach outside of town.  Okay, four things, the town has some 400 tailor shops that will make very cheap clothing with a one-day turnaround time.
 * I don't understand why WV should keep My Son secret from the travelers who look at the Hoi An article.
 * Now, I was going to add a few more things about Hoi An, but my wiki time has now been used up by all of this arguing and reverting, and I have better things to do. Good night. --Neotarf (talk) 12:50, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems to me that an analogous example might be Siem Riep and Angkor Wat in Cambodia, altho they are not as far apart as Hoi An and My Son. Both SR and Angkor have their own entries. Angkor is referenced in SR's See section, but not in its Go Next. If My Son is a day trip from Hoi An, I would say it belongs in See, not in Go Next. Seligne (talk) 13:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Montréal is a day trip from Ottawa (at least a two-hour bus ride) but we gave it an article for some fool reason. It depends how much is there and whether it's far enough to be a separate place - suburbs of a small city are listed as part of the city, but "an hour bus ride" on open highway usually infers something is 50-60 miles (80-100km) away and therefore not a suburb of the city. Merging these likely only makes sense if the area is very sparse (something Anticosti-sized with a hundred miles of parkland, for instance). K7L (talk) 15:14, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It appears to me that My Son is not in Hoi An. So it is not something to do in Hoi An, it is something to do from Hoi An.
 * Neotarf thinks the articles are bloated, but hasn't said what info should be removed?
 * As to why the Hoi An article should keep My Son secret – I don't understand that question at all. It is not keeping it secret – there is a link in the "Go next" section. Nurg (talk) 19:45, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a tricky one. I'd say 99.9% of people who visit My Son do so as a short trip from Hoi An.  They sleep in Hoi An. My Son isn't a developed destination in its own right, and I'd say it almost rates as an attraction.  I'd say there is less to see there than many other historical sites.  And there would never be enough to justify spending the night there. It certainly isn't analogous to Montreal from Ottawa, which are each developed destinations.  It is more analogous to Cu Chi tunnels from Saigon.  And that article reads like an attraction guide too.  We put that in Go Next.  Personally, I'd put attractions that overwhelmingly seen from one destination, and have no real facilities of their own in the destination guide.  I'd ask the question, when we have so many junky subheadings, why we can't afford a Daytrip section within See, where this kind of destination would naturally fit.  --Inas (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion, Ikan Kekek.

Seligne and Inas have both nailed this, but Neotarf does have a valid point about reverting too quickly - from the travellers' point of view (as opposed to a curator of the sacred wiki POV) it does no harm to have the same sight mentioned both as a Hoi An "See" (especially if there's a "Day trips" sub-heading) and in "Go next". (If we were talking about a commercial site I'd be dead against duplicate listing a resort's restaurant under Eat, its cabanas under Sleep, its beach bars under Drink, its golf course under Do and the whole island resort article as a Go Next destination - unless the listings would be very empty otherwise - but fortunately My Son can be allowed to be one of those exceptions that proves our rule since there are no lodgings or other facilities in My Son.) --118.93nzp (talk) 00:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I accept that it's questionable whether I should have reverted the second time, rather than just starting the discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It's always a difficult judgement call Ikan Kekek but, hopefully after this exchange, Neotarf feels like a valued member of the community whose arguments are weighed and analysed and taken seriously - even though we've all used up valuable article editing time... --118.93nzp (talk) 02:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The wooden bridge is outside the city. Also the beach. And the craft village on the other side of the walking bridge. Some of these have accommodations and restaurants. New articles, anyone? FYI, the My Son ruins are 26 miles from Hoi An.

I don't get the purpose of having a "Go next" section. It seems to be a hodgepodge list of random cities in the same country.

Okay, I'm going to check Lonely Planet now, so I know how to prioritize my time. --Neotarf (talk) 02:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

 * The purpose of "Go next": From Big city article template:

 * Information about nearby destinations that would serve as a good "next stop." Provide a brief description of other nearby destination suggestions, neighboring cities or day-trip ideas. Don't duplicate information that's up in "Get in."

 * Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Neotarf is right that trips to My Son are part and parcel with visiting Hoi An, and deserve more prominent exposure here. I don't see that a choice has to be made between 'See' and 'Go next', but if absolutely necessary, it should be under 'See', as it's not an onward destination - pretty much all visitors return to Hoi An after they're done at My Son. As to bloat, that tends to happen to all Vietnam articles over time, thanks to touts. Edit as necessary. Gorilla Jones (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks Gorilla, yes, if My Son can only be listed once, it would surely be best in the "to do" section, since My Son and the Old Town are the two major reasons to come here. Think of Salisbury and Stonehenge, or Cairo and the Gaza pyramids. My Son can be reached from DaNang, but no one stays in Da Nang anymore, since Hoi An is now the major tourist stop in the area.  I'm not sure why the "big city" template was used--Hoi An seems rather small, but no matter. --Neotarf (talk) 09:26, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I have now done a lot of clean-up, mostly organizing things into sections and subsections, so that someone who is looking for one particular piece of information doesn't have to wade through a lot of unrelated material. Some internal links would be helpful, but I'm not sure of how to format them. --Neotarf (talk) 12:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Condition of Hoi An
I was just curious, it seems like a great description of Hoi An in the Understanding section, but it almost seems like it contradicts itself a little in saying the city is 'largely preserved' and mercifully absent of karaoke bars, etc at first and then in the next paragraph it says that the culture and heritage UNESCO was trying to preserve is long gone. Is it supposed to be like that? Lazarus1255 (talk) 23:05, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hoi An


text:
Talk:Hokkaido

Circuits or subprefectures
There are two commonly used ways to split up Hokkaido: either the 4 "circuits" (道), or the 12 "subprefectures" (支庁). Wikipedia uses the subprefectures (eg. WikiPedia:Bihoro, Abashiri, Hokkaido) but I think the circuits are more appropriate for Wikivoyage:
 * The names are more intuitive ("Central", "Eastern", "Northern" etc)
 * 12 divisions is too many, 4 is more manageable
 * Big things like parks are often split between subprefectures but usually not between circuits

Opinions? (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:42, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)

 * So I'm now tentatively going for the Hokkaido : Circuit : Subpref : Town split. Is "X Circuit" too wordy, would just "Central (circuit)" be better? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:04, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)
 * Actually, I find the division to subprefectures is too detailed and not very useful for a traveler. How about skipping that step, just leaving circuits and then towns / parks? Jpatokal? Fabimaru? OskNe? JRHorse? There is often not more than 1 important tourist destination in each subrpefecture, which is my main argument for making the fuse. Danapit (talk) 10:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I've never been to Hokkaido, but your reasoning seems very sound to me, so if no-one else expresses an opinion within a day or two, I think you should go ahead and merge the info from subprefecture articles as you are proposing to do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:47, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ikan Kekek. Yes, I will wait for a couple of days to see if anybody has objections, and if not, I'll move the information from subprefectures to circuits and make re-directions. Danapit (talk) 11:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Same than Ikan Kekek: never been to Hokkaido but it makes sense. - Fabimaru (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Fabimaru, for your opinion. I'll do the job, bit by bit. Danapit (talk) 07:32, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I translate pages about Japan to French, and if I have the time some day I will be glad to use this structure - Fabimaru (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think this is an improvement. Still, the circuits need some more content :) Danapit (talk) 09:28, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Furano
Furano is technically a city, although to the general traveller (and most Japanese people) it would seem like a town. For the sake of accuracy, I'm bumping it up to cities.

Western
"its architecture and cities are much more modern, and mostly based on western-like grid layouts."

That would be "The West" == USA ?

There are many towns, cities, countries in "The West" that don't use grid layouts. Even modern ones.

Banner
The banner is ready!--TheDarkFear (talk) 12:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

 * I have noticed the banner is somewhat distorted. In principle that could be fixed, but also the theme of the picture doesn't fit very well to my personal concept of Hokkaido. I am coming up with 2 alternatives. The first one is rather weird, but somewhat appealing to me: a view of Hokkaido countryside from a lobby of a spa hotel. The other one: well, rough coast. Fits well to Hokaido...

What do you think? TheDarkFear? Danapit (talk) 19:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

 * I haven't been to Hokkaido, but my comments are that yes, the distortion of the current banner is noticeable. I'm concerned that the first alternative could look glary on some screens, though the concept is excellent. That leaves the second alternative, which is my favorite. Is it similar enough to pass for any number of other islands, though? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Ikan Kekek, that's right, what you say concerning alternative 2. It could easily be somewhere in Scotland for example. These are of course not the only options, I'll keep looking for more alternatives (to make the decision more difficult :)) when I have a little time to spare. But alternative 1 is still on my mind. Danapit (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

 * I fixed the distortion for the time being, still in search for a better alternative - somewhat more representative for Hokkaido. --Danapit (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I added alterntive banner #3, it's a photo from Toya lake. Still, my favourite one is alternative #1. It has a cosy atmosphere. Anyway, some of the banners can be used for the Hokkaido Circuits, which lack banners so far. Danapit (talk) 13:38, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Dunno; #3 seems more evocative of rural northern Japan to me, though if you prefer to show that you can have a beautiful view from a hotel, #1 is your banner. I certainly think that #3 is more in the tradition of classic Japanese paintings, and given my aesthetics, I'd favor it, for what that's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:39, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think #3 is fine, too. I'll put it in and distribute the other banners to regions, if there are custom banners missing. Thanks for your opinion and support. Danapit (talk) 19:18, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your great work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:32, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not a big fan of any of them, but I would stick with the original. 15:16, 4 September (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by 133.218.159.33 (talk • contribs)

Map
There is no train line to Esashi. Our map currently has one from Hakodate to Esashi (southern tip of the island) but it should be removed. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hokkaido


text:
Talk:Holiday villas

Spam magnet, slippery slope
This section seems like it's sliding down a slippery slope towards allowing every rental agency in the world to toss in a link that we'd normally excise per Project:External links. Should we just get rid of the section, or purge the paragraphs with external links? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:38, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Overlap with Vacation rentals?
Is there a difference between this article and Vacation rentals? /Yvwv (talk) 20:42, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Holiday villas


text:
Talk:Holland (disambiguation)

Disambiguating Holland
Copied from Project:Article naming conventions:

Currently the Holland page is a redirect to the Netherlands. However, there are numerous places in the world named "Holland", including Holland (Michigan), so we should have a disambiguation page. Adding Template:otheruses to the Netherlands article would link to "Netherlands (disambiguation)", which isn't right, so the other possibility is to change "Holland" from being a redirect into being a disambiguation page. That would seem to violate the "most famous" rule, so I'm stuck. I'd vote for a disambiguation page for "Holland", but what do other people think? -- (WT-en) Ryan (04 April)

 * Forgot to sign my post yesterday, sorry. Anyhow, I'm thinking that Holland should be made into a redirection page since there really isn't any other way to create a disambiguation page for the less famous Hollands.  Any objections? -- (WT-en) Ryan 10:18, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

 * No, I think it's the right thing to do. It's weird when we have a name and the most famous place with that name doesn't have a guide with that name (there may be a few other examples), but I think it's best to do a disambiguation. --(WT-en) Evan 10:21, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

 * You've done it now anyway, but was there anything stopping you having a link to a Holland (disambiguation) page from The Netherlands and using the words, but not the template to otheruses. There wouldn't be a problem with either being an orphan either. -- (WT-en) DanielC 14:43, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

 * That could have been done, but it would have been an exception to the policy that "most famous" articles should use Template:otheruses. With Mediawiki 1.6 templates can accept default parameters, so we could have set the template up to display "For other places named Holland see Holland (disambiguation)", but it seemed (to me at least) like that would look a bit odd on an article titled "Netherlands". -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:53, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

 * It would have been a bit weird, I was just pointing out there would have been a way around it. -- (WT-en) DanielC 15:37, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

 * This is crazy. Holland should obviously redirect to the Netherlands, how could there be discussion about this? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 14:25, 22 July 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Holland (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Holly Springs

Holly Springs has been named Best Day Trip by Mississippi Magazine, Best Bed and Breakfast as well as Best Off-Beat Attraction!!

title: Talk:Holly Springs


text:
Talk:Los Angeles/Hollywood

Redirect
Copied in from Talk:Hollywood (disambiguation)

As Los Angeles/Hollywood is so much more famous (4), any objections to the following? ~ 203.144.143.10 13:10, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * redirect Hollywood to Los Angeles/Hollywood
 * add to Los Angeles/Hollywood
 * create Hollywood (disambiguation)
 * Sounds good. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 13:13, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * Good idea! -- (WT-en) Colin 21:25, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * Should the main article actually be named Hollywood instead of Los Angeles/Hollywood? Wikivoyage has been consistent in ignoring government boundaries when they don't make sense for travel, and this seems like another such case.  While Hollywood is technically a sub-division within LA, there are literally dozens of such sub-divisions (see WikiPedia:List of districts and neighborhoods of Los Angeles) that are essentially independent cities that share government resources and are thus lumped under the umbrella of "Los Angeles".  Studio City, Universal City and Sherman Oaks are similar examples.  If we treat all of these as part of LA then we'll have quite a large number of "Los Angeles/Name" articles, which I don't think is the best way to organize an LA-area travel guide. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:52, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * I'm in favor of this, although I think we should be careful with it. I'd be more wary with making legally-distinct cities into neighborhoods of their metropolis. --(WT-en) Evan 21:56, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * Strongly agree with changing the name. I first filled in this page 18 months ago and I'm a long-time L.A. resident. No one evers calls it Los Angeles/Hollywood.    (WT-en) Luvdapug 22:13, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * I agree -- especially since this kind of thing (massive sprawling cities where regions of the city are given a different name and are useful to the traveller as separate articles) is endemic throughout the Southern California region. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:31, 2 January 2007 (EST)

 * Great, a discussion at last! Evan, I've gone through and clarified which are and aren't cities so I think we're out of that danger zone. Luvdapug, it is named as Los Angeles/Hollywood since it is a district of LA city, and that's how we're supposed to name districts, although this is now being debated since LA has so many districts and some are so famous. Since you guys seem to know LA, can you maybe help on the discussions on Talk:Los_Angeles and Talk:Los_Angeles/West? I'd like to put a lot more work into the LA pages soon and maybe try to draw up some maps, but there's still grey areas that need to be worked out. Thanks! (WT-en) Cacahuate 02:56, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Food
Looking at the food selection here there are alot of "tourist" hot-spots shown here to eat. There are alot of tourist that would like to try more authentic, home-made food. I wanted to recommend some places in East Hollywood where they can try authentic Salvadoran, Mexican, Guatemalan, Aremenian, and Colombian food. Not all tourist would go to these non-tourist spots, but if you want to experience the real diverse culture offered then this would be a good idea.

 * Feel free to add anything you like, that's what a wiki is all about! For the record though, I think only about 1/2 of the restaurants listed in this article are tourist oriented. Make sure to be somewhat selective in what you add, as we don't want to list every restaurant in Hollywood just because they exist. This should be a discerning list of restaurants that we think visitors will like. So, plunge forward! – (WT-en) cacahuate   talk 21:04, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Beverly Garland Hotel
Hey there anonymous editor... I think you've finally noticed my edit comments when I've been reverting your addition of this hotel, sorry, I should have left a note here sooner but I forgot! this hotel is in North Hollywood, which is an entirely different area than Hollywood (there's a whole mountain range in between them). The hotel is already listed in that article, where it should be. Hope that clears up the confusion! – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 20:42, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Part of Los Angeles?
I was talking similar in Sydney, but since this is America and I know that even though suburbs are municipalities they tend to be called apart of the actual city but are really not. Aiiight...this is what I am thinkin' about this one. Ok, in America, cities maybe like apart of a city metro area and people might genralize and say like "oh yeah we live in Sacramento" (when they rea;;y Loomis in outer metro) yayyayaya. But to me, in actual definition these places are their own, and should be carried out. Hollywood is it's own city from my knowledge (gets a lil iffy on where LAs borders are) and should not be defined as apart of Los Angeles. It can be mention in the metro area page, but only minor mentions in LA itself, and def. no district. I think this should me moved to it's own. Hollywood as I recall is apart of SoCal "Megalopolis" and ya, but it's its own city from LA. Am I crazy? Sorry for disrupting anyonee. Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee talk 21:26, 4 November 2008 (EST).

 * It's technically and legally part of LA city... but we treat it as a separate entity, which is why it has its own article, and why it resides at "Hollywood" and not "Los Angeles/Hollywood"... so what the heck are you referring to? – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:57, 5 November 2008 (EST)

 * Sorry, um, well I just thought Hollywood was it's own city and should not be considered apart of an LA District. Of course, I was wrong, dumb me, you see Hollywood is apart of Los Angeles.  I should really shut mah mouth, eh?  Keep smiling, (WT-en) ee talk 10:22, 5 November 2008 (EST).

It seems anomalous that the name of the article isn't Los Angeles/Hollywood. There is a Hollywood, Florida, too. Is there a good reason not to change the article's name? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
 * See the above 11-year-old conversation about moving this article from Los Angeles/Hollywood to Hollywood, and creating a Hollywood (disambiguation). The main argument for this article not being Los Angeles/Hollywood, is that this "Hollywood" is much more famous than any of the others, and that travellers don't care about the political detail of this destination being a part of the city of Los Angeles. "The traveller Comes First" here, and the traveller thinks of this destination as "Hollywood". That's how I read the previous discussion, anyhow. JimDeLaHunt (talk) 08:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, but I disagree. My point would be that the article should be Los Angeles/Hollywood because it's a district of Los Angeles and listed as one in Los Angeles. We wouldn't refer to it as anything but Hollywood at the beginning of the article and would never use the full article name in any prose in the article, but the name should be based on consistency in the hierarchy, in my opinion. And if you'd like to pursue the idea that Hollywood is better known as such, then what about Beverly Hills (which is not part of the City of Los Angeles), Malibu, Culver City, Santa Monica (also not part of LA city)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * (Shrug) OK, you disagree. But this is one of those choices where reasonable people can differ. I don't feel strongly about where this destination fits into the hierarchy, except that The traveller comes first. But I do feel strongly that we in 2017 should be aware that our colleagues have had similar discussions in 2006 and 2008, and give consideration to the conclusions they came to. We should not imagine we are the first to bring up issues like this. JimDeLaHunt (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * four years later. If this is going to be dotm, it needs to be renamed to Los Angeles/Hollywood, in line with policy. For that matter, we'd need to be renaming Rome/Vatican to Vatican City if we're going to use JimDeLaHunt's rationale. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind that I moved your reply to the end of the thread, so as to avoid confusion. Not surprisingly, I completely agree with you, as I did 4 years ago. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:31, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for moving it below. Probably should have commented below in the first place, but anyway, JimDeLaHunt doesn't seem to be active anymore. Any objections to moving it before I do tomorrow to make it in line with our policy? -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:46, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

 * I agree that Hollywood should be breadcrumbed under Los Angeles. The dog2 (talk) 02:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've renamed the page. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Sleep listings
There's a lot of budget chains in the Sleep sections with no reviews in them, which takes away from the solid hotel reviews that are already there? Can I delete some budget hotel listings as I feel its good to have quality reviews rather than quantity in these sections? Thanks --(WT-en) MarinaK 20:49, 11 November 2008 (EST)MarinaK. I deleted the aforementioned hotels and added reviews to some as I didn't hear back, but if people feel strongly about this, its fine to revert my edits. --(WT-en) MarinaK 14:21, 12 November 2008 (EST)MarinaK

 * Hmmm, actually I think it's OK here, they are not excessive listings like on the current nightmarish Rome article. They could be expanded with a few words, to make it all look good, like; "The usual impersonal, but well functioning Best Western standard, if you are into that sort of thing. Amnesties include free wireless, 24 hour reception and non smoking rooms" that's what I usually do.(WT-en) Sertmann 14:41, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Chinese Theater pic
I really dislike the extremely distorted photo of Grauman's Chinese Theater that we're using in this article. However, I don't like any of the other photos in Commons Category:Grauman's Chinese Theatre, either, except for File:The Chinese Theatre, Hollywood, California (62694).jpg, which is a scan of a postcard. So if any of you enterprising photographers would like to try for a good, well-lit, undistorted picture of this theater, please upload it to Commons and link it instead of the thumbnail currently in the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:03, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Los Angeles/Hollywood


text:
Talk:Hollywood (disambiguation)

Redirect
As Los Angeles/Hollywood is so much more famous (4), any objections to the following? ~ 203.144.143.10 13:10, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * redirect Hollywood to Los Angeles/Hollywood
 * add to Los Angeles/Hollywood
 * create Hollywood (disambiguation)
 * Sounds good. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 13:13, 31 December 2006 (EST)
 * Good idea! -- (WT-en) Colin 21:25, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * Should the main article actually be named Hollywood instead of Los Angeles/Hollywood? Wikivoyage has been consistent in ignoring government boundaries when they don't make sense for travel, and this seems like another such case.  While Hollywood is technically a sub-division within LA, there are literally dozens of such sub-divisions (see WikiPedia:List of districts and neighborhoods of Los Angeles) that are essentially independent cities that share government resources and are thus lumped under the umbrella of "Los Angeles".  Studio City, Universal City and Sherman Oaks are similar examples.  If we treat all of these as part of LA then we'll have quite a large number of "Los Angeles/Name" articles, which I don't think is the best way to organize an LA-area travel guide. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:52, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * I'm in favor of this, although I think we should be careful with it. I'd be more wary with making legally-distinct cities into neighborhoods of their metropolis. --(WT-en) Evan 21:56, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * Strongly agree with changing the name. I first filled in this page 18 months ago and I'm a long-time L.A. resident. No one evers calls it Los Angeles/Hollywood.    (WT-en) Luvdapug 22:13, 1 January 2007 (EST)

 * I agree -- especially since this kind of thing (massive sprawling cities where regions of the city are given a different name and are useful to the traveller as separate articles) is endemic throughout the Southern California region. -- (WT-en) Colin 18:31, 2 January 2007 (EST)

 * Great, a discussion at last! Evan, I've gone through and clarified which are and aren't cities so I think we're out of that danger zone. Luvdapug, it is named as Los Angeles/Hollywood since it is a district of LA city, and that's how we're supposed to name districts, although this is now being debated since LA has so many districts and some are so famous. Since you guys seem to know LA, can you maybe help on the discussions on Talk:Los_Angeles and Talk:Los_Angeles/West? I'd like to put a lot more work into the LA pages soon and maybe try to draw up some maps, but there's still grey areas that need to be worked out. Thanks! (WT-en) Cacahuate 02:56, 3 January 2007 (EST)

title: Talk:Hollywood (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Holmes County (Ohio)

Useful Holmes Co. info .(WT-en) Fastestdogever 00:02, 12 February 2007 (EST)

 * Please note - I have a long established relationship with some Ohio Amish and Mennonites (Men of Science) families, due to a common interest in "native hardwoods". The photo's I have added today were taken after a discussion with some of them and do not offend their beliefs. Having known them for some 20 years, these are the first photo's I have taken. (WT-en) 2old 14:26, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

I deleted:

IMPORTANT UPDATE: The above statements are not completely accurate, and some are just plain untrue. The author of the above information probably got their information from a single visit, or a textbook. Where to begin...
 * No, I have dealt with the Amish for over 20 years.

The furniture made in Ohio's Amish Country is of the highest quality anywhere in the U.S. If a local person makes shabby furniture they do not stay in business very long. Yes, you need to be careful for some Chinese-made items (mostly the garbage sold in the tourist traps) but when you go into the vast majority of furniture shops, you are buying high-quality locally made furniture.
 * When you go to well established furniture stores (Farmerstown), you find top quality furniture, in Berlin, quality varies from poor to fine furniture. Best (Johns Woodworking). Worst - most downtown.

The passage above about photographs simply is not true. As a local resident, writer, photographer and businessperson who does business with the Amish on a daily basis, I can emphatically state that it is NOT "against the religion" of the Amish to be photographed. My daughter goes to public school with Amish children, and the class photo is about 1/2 Amish children. Indeed it is children who are most likely to be photographed because they have not yet joined the church (Amish are adult baptisers, hence the term Anabaptist). Not only have I photographed Amish children many times (from a respectful distance) but I have published these photos in my books, and never once have I received negative feedback from the Amish. In fact, many have purchased my book.
 * I can not argue this, but I know of no Amish who attend public schools, Mennonite maybe, but most Amish provide their own schools. They are way too polite to give you any "negative comments". Anyone doing what you are doing would have to be defined as an overbearing english person taking advantage of the Amish for personal gain. Not a good idea.

Where the confusion comes in, is with POSING for photography, whether or not the person is a church member, and what sect (local church group) they belong to. In short, the more conservative the sect, the more the people are going to not want to be photographed. How do I know? I asked! I work with the Amish, I write about them AND I photograph them. Also, to say that you should not photograph Amish farms is positively absurd. It is just wrong. Period. There are certain events I will not photograph, namely funerals. I have photographed weddings from a distance.
 * Your words:In short, the more conservative the sect, the more the people are going to not want to be photographed. Well said. Do not photograph them. I asked also. Many discuusions on the topic with them in 20 years.

Finally, to equate asking permission to photograph an Amish person to racism is one of the most inaccurate, outlandish, ridiculous statements I have ever heard. The Amish ARE NOT a "different race" of people. What nonsense! The Amish are a Christian religious sect or European descent who simply choose to live their lives with a different focus and values than us "English." In Amish communities the three things that matter most are faith, family and community. Each is equally important, and their manner of dress and the customs are just a manifestation of their faith. Nothing more, nothing less. To call them a different race is naive, insulting and grossly uninformed. Asking permission to photograph an Amish person may be a faux pas by someone who does not understand that the Amish do not consider themselves a curiosity, and it may even be a bit rude depending upon the circumstance, but racist? Please. I've heard some ridiculous claims regarding the Amish, but that one is a true whopper.
 * The Amsih are:An ethnic group or ethnicity, a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.[1] Ethnicity is also defined from the recognition by others as a distinct group[2] and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioural or biological traits. Agreed, not a different race, but in all of my discussions with Amish in Holmes, Morrow Counties, which are numerous, in and out of Amish homes, on farms and in workshops, they have convinced me that they do not want to be photographed, especially the children. I do know that overbearing "english" overlook and ignor this fact. Have you ever seen any photo's of anyone in an Amish home? I do not think so. So, my term as a racist action, is as descriptive as I can get.

I also can speak about the use of the word "Amish" in terms of marketing.

Over the years, the Amish have, by default, built a very powerful brand. People across the world equate the word "Amish" with quality because they know about the Amish work ethic, and dedication to producing high-quality products. In recent years, foreign competition and a "shakeout" in the Amish furniture industry has caused the Amish businesspeople to take a first real look at marketing. in the past, customers were plentiful, and selling was easy. But again, competition is the new reality and marketing is being introduced to a group that never really needed it or considered it before.
 * Calling the Amish a brand, I am sure would be more than offensve to them, and yes, some VERY limited "Amish" is being used by them, mostly in fresh food products within their co-ops, but their is a lot of resentment within the community on this and may be short lived. How many jars of jelly or bakery items have you purchased from the Amish that had any reference to Amish on it. None.

Some Amish businesses will use the word "Amish" in their marketing. How do I know? Because I do marketing work for a number of Amish clients. Some are very, very reluctant to use it. Some understand the power of the "brand" they have built and use the word with caution. Such as, "furniture from Ohio's Amish Country." Others will not use it at all. It's all a matter of choice, and what one's church will allow.

Bottom line on marketing with the word "Amish": If you see "Amish furniture" or "Amish-made furniture" advertised, it probably IS Amish-made. It is not a "marketing ploy;" it is simply a way of defining one's product in an ever-competitive marketplace.
 * Most of these terms are used by the 'hawkers" in Berlin, they attach those terms to what they buy from the Amish, the Amish do not use it.
 * I really think you are a well meaning "english person" living in Amishland, with no understanding or respect for them. (WT-en) 2old 10:21, 28 November 2007 (EST)

Please, please read this!
OK, I have calmed down a bit. But...

I can emphatically state that the information you keep deleting is good information. You say you have known the Amish for 20 years. Good for you. I LIVE here, and my family has been here for 140 years. I write books about the Amish, and I work with them on a daily basis to help them promote their wholesale and retail furniture businesses!

I will not re-post my more-insulting comments about your work if you will please go back and re-read what I have posted. Please, open your mind to the fact that you are not, by simple virtue of your association with the Amish, necessarily an expert, and that your information could be in error. It is. In terms of some of your statements you are quite simply, quite wrong.

If you go to public schools throughout Holmes, Tuscarawas and southern Wayne County, you will see a lot of Amish children in public schools. Would you like me to post my daughter's class photo, comprised of approximately one-half Amish Children? The Amish WILL send their children to a private school based on their own personal preferences, and the availability of either private or public schools. I challenge you to go the the public elementary schools in Mt. Hope, Winesburg, Charm or Mt. Eaton to name a few. You will find that these public schools have many Amish students. In fact, some of those I just named have a majority Amish student body. I can take you to public schools that have a 100% Amish student body (Flat Ridge Elementary, near Charm, Chestnut Ridge, near Walnut Creek). You don't know of any Amish who send their students to public school? Well I do!

As an aside, I can tell you that I know more than one Amish person who has told me emphatically that they would never send their children to an Amish school. Why? Personal preference. Yes, even among the Amish there are varying degrees of opinions about education. What you will find is that the more conservative the sect, the more likely they are to build and support a private school, as opposed to using a public school. Probably 100% (or very close to it) of the Swartzentrubers eschew public schools in favor of parochial.

You are also wrong in your comparison of taking an Amish person's photo to racism, and you assertion that the Amish are a separate race. To me, that is a very insulting statement, because the Amish do not consider themselves different from us, except for the way they choose to live their lives. I cannot begin to explain how totally off base you are. Hear me on this: There is a great deal of variance of Amish beliefs and practices on photography. Don't believe me? Come to Millersburg, go to the Wal-Mart and watch the young Amish girls using the photo machines or picking up prints. I guarantee you that a lot of Amish are using cell phone cameras, too!

The Amish also are not a separate ethnic group. Never heard that before, and I challenge you to go the Amish And Mennonite Heritage Center outside Berlin to learn more about the real roots of the Anabaptists. They are of European descent, and are not a distinct ethnic group. Weird stuff. You state, "They are way too polite to give you any "negative comments". Anyone doing what you are doing would have to be defined as an overbearing english person taking advantage of the Amish for personal gain. Not a good idea."
 * From Wikipedia:The Amish are united by a common Swiss-German ancestry, language, and culture, and they marry within theAmish community. The Amish therefore meet the criteria of an ethnic group. (WT-en) 2old 13:00, 28 November 2007 (EST)

You are right that they are very polite and nonconfrontational, but you are wrong in your statements about me, and how I earn my living. Please understand that Amish people, small and large Amish-owned businesses and MAJOR corporations in this area support my work, buy my work, display my work in their places of businesses and PAY me to do what I do! Otherwise I would have to go get a real job, instead of engaging in this Wiki-battle. :-)

Did you not read the part where I explained that Amish people themselves BUY my books? I will explain further that I do not publish photos of adults where their faces are recognizable. As for you comments about personal gain, I submit that you do not know what you are talking about. There are numerous books, magazines and other items that feature photography of Amish farms, people and events that do not exploit the Amish people.

You say, "I really think you are a well meaning "english person" living in Amishland, with no understanding or respect for them." NOTHING could be further from the truth in terms of my respect for the Amish people. Again, you do not understand my post. I work WITH Amish people on a DAILY basis. What I have stated about the use of the word "Amish" in their marketing comes from my Amish clients themselves. I work with Amish from across the spectrum, and you must understand the differences in and among the Amish.

I have the absolute deepest respect for and understanding of the Amish, and they know this, or they would not hire me! I honestly believe it is YOU whose knowledge of the Amish is quite limited.

I do apologize for my tone here. But I get very annoyed with people who have only a cursory amount of TRUE knowledge about the Amish trying to tell people things that just aren't true!

I want to speak a little more about how I make my living.

First, I do not publish photos of Amish adults where their faces are recognizable. Next, Please understand that I am a one-person business, and I am made by my reputation among my Amish clients. Do you honestly think they would continue to give me work if they felt I did not respect them? I have had many, many long discussions with numerous clients about how best to present their products to their customers (either at the wholesale or retail level) and still respect the wishes of their church, and their personal feelings. Example: I have a wholesale client who does not mind using the word "Amish" in his marketing materials. He builds one type of furniture and he partners with another man who builds the complementing products. The other man will not use the word "Amish." When we did a joint flyer for the two of them, we left out that word. When I do things for the other guy, we use the word. No one involved has a problem with it. Simple as that!

I work with Amish who have cell phones, use generators and computers. I also work with "kerosene lamp" Amish. I work very hard to respect each person's wishes and that of their church. Do you really want to rat them out?

Let’s talk more about the word “Amish” and marketing. Trust me when I tell you that I have attended many meetings where branding and use of the word “Amish” has been discussed. I’m not talking about jams and jellies or pies here. I’m talking about multi-million-dollar Amish-owned businesses that are trying to find the best ways to compete in the marketplace and still respect the wishes of their church. It’s a great discussion, and one whose time has come. I am not talking about “hawkers” in Berlin. I am talking about smart, savvy, very successful, very religious people who want to keep their businesses thriving and growing so that the Amish way of life can continue, grow and thrive. There is MUCH discussion about branding happening right now, and the entire community (except for the very conservative groups) is involved in the discussion. Some Amish definitely object (as I stated before) to using the word “Amish.” Others have no problem stating, for example, “Furniture from Ohio’s Amish Country” if it allows them to remain competitive and feed their family and their employees’ families. You really need to understand the differences among the Amish themselves.

A word on furniture quality: If you think John's Furniture in Berlin is the best quality, you need to get out more! John's is for tourists. Check Homestead (Wow! No, they are not my clients, but they have advertised in one of my publications); Walnut Creek Furniture, Weaver Furniture in Sugarcreek and Green Acres Furniture in Mt. Eaton. In any of those stores you will find furniture that far surpasses what John's offers. I agree, but none of them are in Berlin.

I do agree with you :-) that the downtown Berlin stores are not the best. But understand that these stores carry much more of the traditional Oak furniture in light stains that used to be very popular. Consumers today want new styles, designs and stain colors. The shops and stores that have responded to this do well. Others have not. As far as the "trinket" shops in Berlin, we agree. Skip them. You can find that junk anywhere. Although, I do take issue with your statement about an Amish person selling Chinese-made trinkets from their buggy. I'd like to see you back that up with some more specifics before I believe that.Try the old fellow with his buggy who is always set up across from the cheese factory in the parking lot, on 577. I want you to accept that I am not some "well-meaning English person" who is exploiting the Amish or doesn't understand or respect them. You have absolutely no idea who I am, and the statements you have made about me are as inaccurate as some of the information you posted. Even though I have deep, deep roots here, I did a LOT of research and spoke to a lot of people before I published my first book. The best indication I can give you that my work is accepted here is this: Have you ever had an Amish person call or write you and ask to buy YOUR book? No? Well I have. Photography of the Amish, and using that work to make money is not, in and of itself evil. When some yokel comes to town and runs up to an Amish person, sticks a camera in their face and takes their picture (like they are at the circus), THAT is wrong. That's not what I do, and you need to understand that the vast majority of Amish have absolutely no objection to photographs of the Amish and their farms being published. Some do, and I respect that. '''I do not buy that, but how is one to know who objects and who does not. All I know, do object.'''

Again, I apologize for my tone, but I have encountered "experts" like you many times, and you do people a huge disservice by spreading half-truths and misinformation. Please don't judge me, and please try to get your facts straight. And please understand that much of what you posted is simply not good information. I battle this stuff all the time, and believe me when I tell you that I work very hard to dispell the type of stuff you posted, and I do so with the support of the Amish community. I am a degreed professional writer, editor, photographer, publisher and advertising/marketing consultant who makes 100% of his living working WITH the Amish. I know what I am taking about! My credentials are unassailable, and I could name-drop if I wanted to. But at this point, I will not.  I'll bet you know the Yoders.

Maybe down the road we can exchange contact information and eventually become friends. I can accept that you have some knowledge about the Amish, and are eager to protect and respect them. I can appreciate that.Thanks, but no thanks.

Can you accept that I am a professional who knows what he is talking about? Can you accept that Amish people and Amish businesses support my work and that they are not only my clients and business associates, but my friends and neighbors?

I have to go now. I have an ad to do for an Amish client and then I have to go see other clients, Amish and English alike! :-)
 * I too am aware of the differences from community to community of Amish, but I truly beleive that you have confused the Amish with the Mennonites in your area. So, no, I can not accept that you are a professional who knows what you are talking about. The ethnenticity subject I addressed above is one example. And true, you will find Amish teens doing all kinds of things PRIOR to being baptised, part of the Amish way of giving the young a chance to make their own decisions. It is also odd that NOW, you say, Oh, well I don't show their faces. There is also nothing wrong with the furniture stores you mentioned, but did you notice none of them, which are all part of the community (except maybe Homestead), DO NOT USE THE WORD AMISH? I stand by my previous statements. I would have to put you in the same class as the leaches in downtown Berlin who have nothing going for themselves other than borrowing the term AMISH to benefit themselves.
 * Those who do not choose to live an Amish lifestyle and join the church are no longer considered Amish, just as those who live the plain lifestyle but are not baptized into the Amish Church are not Amish (WT-en) 2old 13:13, 28 November 2007 (EST) ````

You are 100% off base, wrong and quite rude!
You wrote: "I truly beleive that you have confused the Amish with the Mennonites in your area."

Are you kidding me?!

You think I have the Amish and Mennonites from my area confused?!

I assure you, I do not!

How can you be so dismissive of the information I have provided?!

Let me state emphatically here and now that you know NOTHING about the Amish.

Try and read this s-l-o-w-l-y so you can grasp this:

1. I have written books about the Amish. NOT Mennonites, the Amish.

2. I WORK WITH Amish businesspeople on a DAILY basis. Not Mennonite. Amish. I know the difference.

3. My work is supported by Amish, Mennonite and English people and businesses (large and small) throughout this area.

4. If I was not respectful of the Amish, no business in this area (Amish, Mennonite or English) would have anything to do with me.

Your statements make it very clear to me that you are just another self-appointed expert who thinks he knows it all because he may or may not have done business with an Amish person. Again, I run into people like you all the time and find it quite annoying. The Amish want very much to clear up misinformation about them, and I try to do that. YOU are spreading misinformation about the Amish, and I will do what I can within the rules of this community to stop that.

You obviously don't have any REAL knowledge about the Amish and their practices.

You do not understand what I have posted, and you do not understand my level of expertise.

What I said about my photos is that I don't publish photos where the face of an adult who has joined the church is recognizable. Also, yes, when the aforementioned young people join the church, they will curtail their photography practices somewhat. But I could take you right now to an Amish person (more than one) who has and uses a cell phone camera. Adults. Baptized. Amish.

You also obviously did not grasp what I said earlier: The Amish SUPPORT my work. They HIRE me. Other companies in the area SUPPORT my work. Those of us who LIVE HERE and KNOW what we are talking about do what we can to publish good and truthful information about the Amish. We take it VERY seriously! My work is VERY well received by the Amish, Mennonites and English and large and small businesses in this area. PLEASE TELL ME: EXACTLY WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS?

I would not even post a response to you, but this is an important site, and you are posting information that IS NOT TRUE. Why can you not understand this?

In addition, I am very, very offended about your personal attacks on me and how I make my living. Do you not understand that if the Amish did not support tourism and make their living from it that they would simply leave this area? Do you not understand that if I didn't have a deep respect and understanding of the Amish that I wouldn't have any work? Also, please understand that your accusation of me being a "leach" is potentially a libelous statement. (Read the definition of libel. I know the definition because I have a DEGREE in journalism.) RETRACT THAT STATEMENT NOW.

Let me make a quick point: Tourism is a multi-million-dollar business in this area. More than 90 percent of the Amish no longer make their living as farmers, for a variety of reasons (land availability and cost being the number one factors). The furniture industry in this area (this is part of the information you deleted) is the second-largest furniture-manufacturing district in the USA. It is second in size only to High Point, NC. This industry would not have grown and thrived without the support of the Amish community. I deeply resent your statements about me and the work I do, because I HELP these businesses to sell their products on both a wholesale and retail level. They are my clients and my friends and I am VERY proud and happy to be doing what I do.

By the way: Of the furniture stores that I mentioned, and that you claim do not use the word "Amish," I can assure you that you are wrong there as well. I do ads for some, and at least one is a regular client of mine. They do in fact use the word "Amish" in their advertising. Perhaps not on their storefront signs, but in their print ads.

I truly wish that you would accept the fact that you are wrong, and allow me to post accurate information on this site. And I can't emphasize enough how wrong you are about me personally, and how angry I am at your crude, baseless allegations about me. I am a grown man, highly qualified, doing work I love with wonderful, kind people. I have great life! I wholeheartedly reject what you say about me and my work. I stand by my work, and my knowledge of and respect for the Amish 100 percent. Please allow the grossly inaccurate information you have posted to be replaced with good, accurate information about my friends and neighbors in Ohio's Amish communities.

Response.
Would you prefer parasitic to leach? Please read John A. Hostetlers' book Amish Society, or Wikiopedia's article on Amish. Both are well done and accurate. (You really need to!) I have seen many merchants in Holmes County provide poor literature this subject before. (WT-en) 2old 15:14, 28 November 2007 (EST)

10/23 Edit
Removed sentences calling the Amish "racist" and cleaned up some bad writing in the same paragraph. --Jeff

title: Talk:Holmes County (Ohio)


text:
Talk:Holy Land

What belongs in this article?
With the article's title, I wonder what belongs here. Is it only places that are referred to as "Holy Lands" or is there a place here for the most spiritual places of religions that do not refer to their most holy cities/places as "Holy Lands"?

For example, would there be a place in this article for places like Lhasa (Tibetan Buddhism), Mount Wudang (Taoism), or Ise (Shinto)? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:45, 2 December 2009 (EST)

 * I'm inclined to say there's only one. That is, there is the Holy Land, whereas Llasa is arguably a holy land. If anything, I'd like to see the article be a bit more restrictive, along the lines of wikipedia:Holy Land --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:16, 2 December 2009 (EST)

 * Okay, that's what I was thinking, but the Bahá'í Holy Land kind of made me wonder what the goal of this article really was. Should we just delete the Baha'i cities? Is there an article (or do we even want an article) where holy places like Lhasa or Varanasi belong? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 01:32, 2 December 2009 (EST)

 * The Bahá'í sites are a bit trickier, since they are on the same land, and because I don't know the first thing about Bahá'í religious history ;) I'm inclined to take them out to simplify this. Same goes for Mecca–Medina, since those sites are not in the traditional land of wikipedia:Canaan (and they're anyway already covered by the appropriate travel topic, Hajj).

 * If someone wants to write a travel topic on major centers of Buddhism, or of a certain strand of Buddhism (Mahayana, Theravada, Tibetan, Rinzai, etc.), more power to them! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:27, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Travel topic Easter in Jerusalem / Christmas in the Holy Land or something of the sorts
I think the existing Christmas and New Year Travel and Easter travel articles can't go into too much detail about those places and likewise the Jerusalem or Bethlehem or Holy Land guides shouldn't be cluttered with too much information for just a few days out of the year which only interests a rather slim minority of travelers at that, but going to one of those places for the high holidays of Christianity is pretty common (judging by the crowds they show on the news) and doesn't seem to be super-easy and super-straightforward and given that there is a high potential for stress, panic, Jerusalem syndrome and whatnot, should we have travel topic on that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

 * I'd say just add material to Holy Land for now. If it gets large enough to be a problem there, then consider one or more separate articles. Pashley (talk) 01:12, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Holy Land


text:
Talk:Holyoke

Image of trees should have a description. Its the reservoir at Mt. Tom. I dont know how to alighn that text to the image. I know there are a good deal of small shops in holyoke who need representation for shopping but I cant remember any names off-hand.

title: Talk:Holyoke