text:
Talk:Chiang Rai/Listings

=Province=

Understand
Populations have dwelled in Chiang Rai since the 7th century and it became the center of the Lanna Thai Kingdom during the 13th century. The region, rich in natural resources and textiles, was occupied by the Burmese until 1786. Chiang Rai province’s Golden Triangle bordering Laos and Burma was once the hub of opium production which had much influence on cultural practices and lifestyles. Until this day, entire clans live together in bamboo houses and each village has its own individual character.

The province is rich in tourism resources in terms of natural attractions and antiquities, evidence of its past civilisation. It is also home to various hilltribes who follow fascinating ways of life. Chiang Rai is also a tourism gateway into Burma and Laos.

Geography
Chiang Rai is Thailand’s most northernmost province and a beauty it really is. It is situated on the Kok River basin well above sea level with an area of some 11,678 square kilometres. It is about 785km from Bangkok. Mostly mountainous, it reaches the Mae Khong River to the north and borders on both Myanmar and Laos.

Culture
Popualtions have dwelled in Chiang Rai since the 7th century and it became the center of the Lanna Thai Kingdom during the 13th century. The region, rich in natural resources and textiles, was occupied by the Burmese until 1786. Chiang Rai province’s Golden Triangle bordering Laos and Burma was once the hub of opium production which had much influence on cultural practices and lifestyles. Until this day, entire clans live together in bamboo houses and each village has its own individual character.

Chiang Saen, Mae Chan, and Doi Mae Salong are three substantially different places. Chiang Saen’s rich culture has been influenced by its collection of Buddhist scriptures and temples. It was once the provincial capital. Mae Chan’s name lies in its silver and tribal handicrafts. Once officially unrecognized by the Thai government, Doi Mae Salong is a Chinese KMT (Kuomintang) area renowned for its natural beauty and unique Yunnanese culture. Besides the Chinese 93rd Infantry of the Kuomintang, several other ethnic minorities have settled down in the region including the Tai Yai, Tai Lue, Tai Khoen and Tai Yuan.

Ethnic People / Hill Tribes
Khon Muang are the city folk who originally came from Chiang Mai, Lamphun, Lampang and Phrae. Culturally, they design their houses having only one floor with wooden gable-decorations called Ka-Lae. They are known for their craftsmanship in wood carving, weaving, lacquerware and musical instruments.

Tai Yai, Burmese in origin, harvest rice, farm, raise cattle and trade. Their craftsmanship lies in weaving, pottery, wood carving and bronzeware.

Akha have the largest population of any hill tribe in the region. Originating from Tibet and Southern China, they dwell on high grounds around 1,200 meters above sea-level. Within their villages they build a Spirit Gateway to protect them from evil spirits.

Lahu are also from the Yunnese area and live in high areas. They are known as hunters and planters.

Karen live in various areas of the region which have valleys and riverbanks.

Chin Hor, these are the former Kuomintang who took refuge in the area, mainly Doi Mae Salong

Hmong from southern China are located on high land. They raise livestock and grow rice, corn, tobacco and cabbage. They are also known for their embroidery and silver.

Tai Lue live in dwellings of usually only a single room wooden house built on high poles. They are skilled in weaving.

Lisaw from southern China and Tibet are renowned for their colorful dress and also build their dwellings on high poles. They harvest rice and corn and their men are skilled in hunting.

Yao reside along mountain sides and grow corn and other crops. They are skilled blacksmiths, silversmiths and embroiders.

By plane
Chiang Rai has an airport which have flights to Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

By train
The nearest train station is in Chiang Mai.

By bus
The 12 hour journey from Bangkok can be made on air-conditioned coaches originating from Northern Bus Terminal daily call 0 2936 2852-66, 0 25 76 5599 www.transport.co.th. Private bus operated by Bor Kho Sor Co., Ltd. Call 0 2936 3670, 0 5371 1369, 0 5375 4097/ Chok Rung Tawee Tour call 0 2936 4275-6, 0 5371 4045/ Siam First Tour call 0 2954 3601-4, 0 5371 9064, 0 5371 4386 / Sombut Tour 0 2936 2495, 0 5371 4971, 0 5371 5884 There are services from Chiang Rai bus terminal to various districts in Chiang Rai. Local bus ply nearby provinces, call Chiang Rai bus terminal 0 5371 1224, 0 5371 1154 for details.

By car
Highway No. 1 (Phaholyothin Road) is the main road in Chiang Rai province. It passes through the areas of Phan Mae Lao, Muang, Mae Chan and Mae Sai districts. Along the higway, there are links to other districts in the province, such as roads 108 to Mae Suai, 1126 to Pa Daed, 1233 to Wang Whai and the 1016 to Chaing Saen districts. From Bangkok drive on highway No.32 to Singburi, then take highway No.11 to Phare and highway No.1103 to Chiang Rai. The route is 829km.

By bus
There is a decent enough bus service in the province but in more remote areas, songthaews (public passenger pick-up vehicles) are the norm.

There is also the chance to travel by boat along the Kok River.

By car

 * Arm Tour (อาร์มทัวร์) Tel. 053-713375
 * Budget Car & Truck Rental (บัดเจ็ตคาร์ แอนด์ ทรัคเรนเทล) Tel. 053-740442
 * Far-East North Tours (ฟาร์-อิส นอร์ท ทัวร์) Tel. 053-715690
 * Fhaluang Tour (ฟ้าหลวง ทัวร์) Tel. 053-717976
 * JJR 2000 (เจเจอาร์ 2000) Tel. 053-713994
 * K.M. Travel Service (เค.เอ็ม. เซอร์วิส) Tel. 053-715136
 * Oasis Tour & Trek Service (โอเอซิส แอนด์ เทรค เซอร์วิส) Tel. 053-713535
 * P.D. Tour (พี.ดี.ทัวร์) Tel. 053-712829
 * Phol Sak Car Rent (พลศักดิ์คาร์เร้นท์) Tel. 053-711586 (Car & motorcycle rental)
 * Soon Motorcycle (ศูนย์มอเตอร์ไซเคิล) Tel. 053-714068 (Motorcycle rental)
 * Soontaree Tour (สุนทรีทัวร์) Tel. 053-712588
 * ST Motorcycle (เอสที มอเตอร์ไซเคิล) Tel. 053-713652 (Jeep & motorcycle rental)
 * Tungluang Tour (ทุ่งหลวงทัวร์) Tel. 053-752161
 * vis Rent-a-Car (วีไอเอส เรนท์ อะคาร์) Dusit Island Resort Tel. 053-793827

See
Visitors to the province of Chiang Rai can expect to see some splendid mountain and valley views, while being blessed with excellent weather which is much cooler than in the central plains.

Many folk choose to spend some of their time in Chiang Rai visiting fascinating hill tribes such as the Akha, Lisaw, Hmong, Lahu, Karen, Mien and Yao etc Most visitors go with a certified guide but other simply go on their own (have to plan ahead though). It is all right to stay overnight with the villagers. Solo travelers not going with a guide are advised to stay with the village headmen; a small donation is welcome.

Sadly, some Thai "businessmen" impudently exploit hill tribe people to extract money from the tourists. A village just near the road between Mae Sai and Chiang Rai (it is frequented by tourist minibuses returning from Golden Triangle) is actually privately owned, and, while entrance to the village is free, visiting long-neck Karen people there costs 200 baht. Most tourists (and backpackers) have already paid this price in a tour package, thinking that 1000 baht or more for a day trip is "cheap". Needless to say, these poor Burmese (as was explained privately by guide) Karens working there for a tourists get only a tiny fraction of these money - as they home, Burma (Myanmar), is the one of the poorest countries of the world. Be conscious, this is just a tourist trap. It's better to visit a remote, but genuine Karen village, than to help the rich people to make money from the poorest ones.

When trekking off the beaten track and away from hill tribes, it is possible to sleep at any temple, but again a little donation is appreciated.

Itineraries

 * Five days in the Golden Triangle — a five-day tour of Chiang Rai, Mae Sai, Chiang Saen and Doi Mae Salong, including stops in Myanmar and Laos

Amphoe Mae Fa Luang
Doi Hua Mae Kham (ดอยหัวแม่คำ) is the domicile of the hilltribe near the Thai-Burmese border, about three hours by road along the Mae Chan-Ban Thoed Thai-Ban Huai on routes which wind along the steep mountain edge. The inhabitants are predominantly of the Lisu tribe, with a scattering of Akha, Hmong and Lahu. Doi Hua Mae Kham is most scenic in November when the yellow wild sunflowers are in full bloom.

Amphoe Wiang Kaen
Doi Pha Tang (ดอยผาตั้ง), about 160km from the provincial town, is a viewing point on top of a high cliff over the Thai-Laotian border. It affords a delightful scene of the river and a sea of mist throughout the year. During December-January, blooming Sakuras provide picturesque scenery. It is home to the Chinese Haw, the Hmong and Yao minorities. There are a lots of bungalows & tents serve tourists.

Amphoe Phan
Doi Luang National Park (อุทยานแห่งชาติดอยหลวง) covers an area in Amphoe Mae Suai, Amphoe Phan, Amphoe Wiang Pa Pao in Chiang Rai, Amphoe Wang Nuea in Lampang and Amphoe Mae Chai, Amphoe Mueang in Phayao. It has an area of 731,250 rai (1,170 million square metres) with a topography of high mountains whose peak is Doi Luang. It contains mixed deciduous forest, evergreen forest and deciduous dipterocarp forest. There are diverse kinds of wildlife and birds. To get there take the Chiang Rai – Phayao route for 58 km. to get to Ban Pu Kaeng. At km 773 turn right and go on for 9 km. to the national park office. One interesting tourist attraction there is Namtok Pu Kaeng, a beautifully big waterfall in Chiang Rai. It has 9 tiers containing lots of stalagmites and stalactites. Camping and forest trekking are available. Please call 0 5360 9042 or contact the office in Bangkok at Tel. 0 2562 0760 or www.dnp.go.th.

Amphoe Wiang Pa Pao
Wiang Ka Long (เวียงกาหลง) is a community about 16km from the district office of Wiang Pa Pao. Here have been found remains of ancient furnaces used to make terra cotta utensils. The furnaces are shaped like turtle shell of various sizes with a width of 2 to 5 meters. Bo Nam Ron (บ่อน้ำร้อน) is a hot spring located at Tambon Mae Chedi Mai on the Chiang Rai - Chiang Mai road at Km. 64-65. It is found next to a stream. Villagers sell eggs to boil in the hot spring. Khun Chae National Park (อุทยานแห่งชาติขุน��จ) at Tambon Mae Chedi Mai of Wiang Pa Pao district can be reached by taking the Chiang Mai - Chiang Rai route, Highway no. 118. The park headquarters is right next to the highway at Km. 55-56. Visitors wishing to undertake a jungle trek and camp within the park need to have a guide and prepare their own camping equipment. The trek through the Khun Chae jungle is for adventure travel enthusiasts as the route passes through steep terrain and several hilltops and cliffs over 1,400 metres height. There are good viewing points and trekkers can enjoy waterfalls, flowing streams and virgin jungle areas lush with plantlife. Tel: 0 5360 9262, 0 2562 0760

Hilltribe Museum and Education Center situated in the center of town is aimed at promoting a better understanding of hill tribes and their cultures etc. These are the six major tribes: Akha, Lisaw, Lahu, Karen and Yao and Mien The displays include that of housing styles, tools, utensils and traditional hunting, clothing, giant bamboo, fishing and agricultural equipment. Visitors can also enjoy a half an hour power-point presentation in any main language.

Do
Trekking The trekking area in Chiang Rai covers Amphoe Mueang, Amphoe Mae Suai, and the banks along the Mae Kok River. Prices include guide, basic meals, transportation, accommodation, boat, and elephant. Different prices depend on the condition of accommodation, food, vehicle, insurance etc. Trekking Advices

 * 1) Trekking alone or with unauthorized tour guide/ operator is not recommended. AFECT has excellent treks
 * 2) Trekker is advised to contact an authorized tour operator who provides: brochure with detailed information on trekking program, prices, accommodation, transportation; well-trained guide and licensed by TAT; and advice on how to get ready for trekking including necessary trekking accessories.
 * 3) Some trekking guides may encourage customers to try a sample of opium, or make a side trip into Myanmar. These sound very exciting but any of these can be very dangerous. Taking narcotics is illegal (may lead to imprisonment) and smoking opium may lead to death. Tour operators, guides, as well as tourists are all requested to cooperate in this regard and notify the Tourist Police of such blameworthy behavior. Call 1155 or 0 5371 7779, 0 5371 7796
 * 4) Malaria exists only in hill and forest areas. During the trip protect yourself with mosquito repellent, sleep under mosquito net. If having a fever within 15 days following, one must have a blood check at the nearest hospital.

Tribal Experiences with Local Tribes

AFECT is the oldest NGO working with Hill Tribes in Thailand and established in 1981. They run 3 day and 5 day Cultural Tribal packages where you spend time learning about the fascinating 2700 year old relationship the tribes have with the Forests. Recommended

Travel along Kok River (Route: Tha Ton – Chiang Rai) Tha Ton is a village along the Kok riverside, 24 km. north of Amphoe Fang, Chiang Mai. Attractions along the route: Phra That Sub Fang, many tribal villages near the river and hot spring. Either long-tailed boat or bamboo house rafts with pilot is available for travelling. For more information, please contact Ban Tha Ton Boat Club Tel: 0 5345 9427 or rafting which takes 3 days 2 nights at Thip Travel Tel: 0 5345 9312, Tha Ton Tour Tel: 0 5337 3141. There are 4-5 resorts and guesthouses at Tha Ton and also in Amphoe Fang.

Golfing

Chiang Rai offers the visitors an ample amount of enjoyable activities and golf is right up there are one of the most popular. New golf courses are being designed, built and opened all the time. Wanna-be golfers can confirm with travel agents opening times, playing rates and how to get to the courses.

Golf Courses
 * Santiburi Country Club (สันติบ���รี คันทรี่คลับ) 12 Mu 3 Panwithi Rd., Khlong Dan, Bang Bo, Amphoe Wiang Chai, 8 km. from the city Tel: 0 5366 2821-6, Fax: 0 5371 7377 (18 hole)
 * THB White Sand Golf (ทีเอชบีไวท์แซนด์กล์ฟ) Amphoe Phan at km. 799 of Super Highway Tel: 0 5366 6605 (18 hole)
 * Waterford Valley Golf & Lodge (วอเตอร์ฟอร์ด วัลเล่ย์) 333 Mu 5, Pa Sang, Wiang Chiang Rung sub-district, 35 km. from the city Tel: 0 5395 3425-7, 0 5395 3445-6 Fax: 0 5395 3447 (18 hole)

Agro tourism

Doi Pha Mon Highland Agricultural Extension Office (ศูนย์ส่งเสริมการเกษตรที่สูงดอยผาหม่น) in Amphoe Thoeng located in touch the spectacular scenery ‘Sea of Mist’ & ‘Fantastic Sunrise’ on Phu Chi Fa and the splendid flower bed of ‘Tulips’. This is a place to observe the recycled plantations of ‘temperated climate plant’. Open daily from 08.00-16.30 hrs. Tel: 0 5371 4023 Fax: 0 5371 4024

There are other Agricultural Extension Offices which are also interesting as follow;
 * 1) Mae Chan District Agricultural Extension Office (ศูนย์ส่งเสริมเกษตรแม่จัน) Tel: 0 5377 1654
 * 2) Hua Mae Kham Highland Agricultural Extension Office(ศูนย์ส่งเสริมเกษตรที่สูงหัวแม่คำ) Tel: 0 5377 3496
 * 3) Chiang Rai Agricultural Research Center (ศูนย์วิจัยพืชสวนเชียงราย) Tel: 0 5367 8202

Mountain Biking

Since Chiang Rai has a stunningly scenic mountain landscape with lots of fresh air. It is an ideal place to go mountain biking. Cyclists will love the natural beauty along the trails following the Mekong River including great views of Burma and tropical forests. Contact travel agencies for more details.

Rafting Along the Mae Kok River This 130-km river is well known as one of the most picturesque and cleanest rivers in the whole of Thailand. Rafting can be done along the waterway and visitors can view hilltribe villages situated along the banks. Lush jungles and mountain cliffs create scenic views and a fresh atmosphere.

It takes 3 days and 2 nights to cover the 80-km distance by raft from Tha Ton of Chiang Mai to Chiang Rai town. River trips to and from Chiang Rai by long-tail boats are also organized regularly. The trip takes about 4-5 hrs.

Elephant Riding & Trekking

Riding on elephant's back is one of those fantastic activities one should not miss. For more information contact a travel agency.

Spa

 * Pai Massage Tel: 053-755176 (Foot & Body Massage)
 * Ruean Kaew Thai Traditional Massage Tel: 053-744394 (Thai Traditional Massage)

Sport

 * Chiang Rai Driving Range & Golf Academy Tel. 0 5371 1228 (Golf driving range)
 * Suntiburi Country Club Tel. 0 5366 2821-6 (Golf Course)
 * Waterford Valley Golf & Lodge Tel: 0 5395 3425-7 (Golf Course & Lodging)

Events and Festivals
Dok Siao Ban or Blooming Siao Flower Festival at Phu Chi Fa (งานดอกเสี้ยวบานที่ภูชี้ฟ้า) is held during 13-15 February. There are sports competitions and cultural performances from hilltribes at Ban Rom Fa Thai in Amphoe Thoeng. Buatong Ban or Blooming Mexican Sunflower Festival (งานเทศกาลดอกบัวตองบาน) is held in November. See performances from hilltribes and visit the sunflower field, waterfalls and a sea of mist at Ban Hua Mae Kham, Amphoe Mae Fa Luang. Chiang Rai Flower Festival (งานเทศกาลเชียงรายดอกไม้บาน) This beautiful festival is held during the end of December to January every year. There are colourful flower processions, flower gardens, Miss Thinn Thai Ngarm Contest and also the fair of agricultural products and the variety of indigenous flowers.

Buy
Chiang Rai is rich in handicraft items such as hand-woven cotton materials, dresses and hilltribe silver ornaments, as well as wood-carving products. Certain food items are quite popular such as Naem and Mu Yo (preserved and fermented pork sausages). Agricultural products include lychee (April-May), pineapples, tea, and other products from the royal projects.

Souvenir Shops
Amphoe Mae Chan

 * Ban Tham Pa Tong Woodcarving (แกะสลักไม้บ้านถ้ำผาตอง) Ban Tham Pa Tong Tambon Mae Khao Tom Suk Tel: 05378 7233 (woodcarving product)
 * Kamonsiri (กมลศิริ) 120/1 Tambon Mae Kham Tel: 0 5377 9055 (cotton product)
 * Rueng Sri (เรืองศรี) 25 Mu 3 Ban San Na Tambon Mae Kham Tel: 0 5366 5511, 0 5366 5524 (silk, cotton)

Amphoe Mae Suai

 * Chiang Rai Winery (เชียงรายไวน์เนอรี่) 160 Mu 7 Tambon Sritoy Tel: 0 5395 0693-4, 0 5395 0257 www.chiangraiwinery.com

Amphoe Wiang Pa Pao

 * Tao Wiang Kalong (เตาเวียงกาหลง) 67 Mu 13 Tambon Pa Ngiew at Km. 89 Highway No., 118 Tel: 0 5378 1068, 0 5370 4349 www.tao-wiangkalong.com (pottery, ceramic)
 * Wiang Kalong (เวียงกาหลง) 54 Mu 15 Tambon Wiang Kalong Tel: 0 5378 9241 (Tea products)

Eat
Traditional northern food is quite unique and very popular all over Thailand. The staple diet of local people consists of sticky rice (glutinous rice) which is rolled into balls and served in small hand-made bamboo containers.

Typical delicious dishes in the area are khaeng khanoon (spicy jackfruit curry), khaeng yuak (banana palm leaves), sai oo-a (pork sausages) and Yunnese and Burmese rice noodles.

Khantok is a traditional dinner which can be found in several restaurants in the town.

In the meantime, for those not fancying anything Thai, there are plenty of international restaurants with something for everyone’s taste.

Restaurants
Amphoe Mae Chan and Doi Mae Salong

 * Ban Suan (บ้านสวน) Km. 22 Chiang Rai-Mae Chan Rd., Tel: 0 5366 0855 (Thai food)
 * Lan Ngon (สวนอาหารลานเงินแอนด์รีสอร์ท) 239 Mu 8 Tambon Pa Tueng, Tel: 0 5366 1174, 08 1885 9696, 08 1531 2703

Sleep
Doi Pha Tang

 * Asalia Garden (อาซาเลีย การ์เด้น) 2 kms. from Doi Pha Tang (Tel: 0 5391 8647), 500 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner
 * J-Yong (เจ๊ยง) Doi Pha Tang, 500 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner
 * Pha Tang Hill (ผาตั้ง ฮิลล์) Doi Pha Tang (Tel: 0 8 1950 8969), 500 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner
 * Rom Fah Siam Hill (ร่มฟ้าสยาม ฮิลล์) 5 kms. from Doi Pha Tang (Tel: 0 5370 3317), 450 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner
 * Yi Kwang (ยี่กว่าง) Doi Pha Tang (Tel: 0 5360 9544), 500 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner

Phu Chi Fa

 * Ban Kieng Doi (บ้านเคียงดอย) (Tel: 08 9950 6250)
 * Ban Phu Nam Kang (บ้านภูน้ำค้าง) (Tel: 0 5345 2680-1)
 * Ban Phu Pha (บ้านภูผา) (Tel: 08 9552 7491)
 * Ban Ruam San Sang (บ้านร่วมสรรค์สร้าง) 2 Mu 24 Tambon Tabtao (Tel: 08 1993 3708), 8 rooms: 200-450 baht/ person include breakfast+dinner
 * Daeng Service (แดง บริการ) (Tel: 08 1472 3819)

Amphoe Phan

 * Chiang Rung (เชียงรุ่ง) 1265 Phahonyothin Rd., (Tel: 0 5372 2322, 0 5372 2421 Fax: 0 5372 2429), 36 rooms: 350-600 baht

Amphoe Wiang Pa Pao

 * C & C Resort (Cabbages and Condoms Cottage) (ซี แอนด์ ซี) 153 Mu 6, Tambon Pa Ngiu (Tel: 0 5395 2312-4), 19 rooms: 350-800 baht
 * Chaiwarit (ชัยวาฤทธิ์) 6 Mu 2, Tambon Wiang, Chiang Mai-Chiang Rai Rd., (Tel: 0 5378 1160), 10 rooms: 100-350 baht
 * Phimpha (พิมพา) (Tel: 0 5378 1129), 9 rooms: 200-350 baht
 * Thaiyaporn (ไทยาภรณ์) (Tel: 0 5378 9113), 24 rooms: 150-300 baht

Amphoe Mae Chan

 * Baikotel (Fu-Nancy) (ไบโคเทล ฟู่-แนนซี่) 380 Mu 4 Ban Kiew Prao (Tel: 0 5366 4694), 6 rooms: 250 baht
 * Ban Rabieng Chan (บ้านระเบียงจัน) 99 Mu 9 Ban Nong Wen, Tambon Mae Chan (Tel/ Fax: 0 5377 2791), www.banrabiangchan.com, 9 rooms: 1,500 baht
 * Ban Rim Tarn (บ้านพักริมธาร) 62 Mu 10 Tambon Mae Kham (Tel: 0 5366 5379), 7 houses:400-1,500 baht
 * Bua Ban Resort (บัวบาน รีสอร์ท) 226 Mu 7 Tambon Mae Rai (Tel: 0 5366 7240, 0 5376 3032), 25 rooms: 400-500 baht
 * Chalisa Resort (ช���ลิสา รีสอร์ท) 199 Mu 4 Tambon Pa Sang (Tel: 0 5391 8352), 10 rooms: 500-700 baht

Amphoe Mae Suai

 * Charin Garden Resort (สวนจริณ รีสอร์ท) 83 Mu 1 Phahonyothin Rd., Highway No.118 Chiang Rai-Chiang Mai (Tel: 0 5391 8628, 08 1783 1637) www.chiangraiprovince.com/htl/charin, 10 rooms: 600 baht
 * Chiang Rai Country Hill Resort (เชียงราย คันทร���่ ฮิลล์ รีสอร์ท) 163 Mu 4 Mae Suai - Fang Rd., (Tel: 0 5378 6080, 0 5365 6351), 20 houses: 500-4,000 baht
 * Laolee Resort (เลาลี รีสอร์ท) 15 Mu 20 Doi Laoli, Tambon Wawi (Tel: 0 5376 0150-1 Fax: 0 5376 0152), 32 rooms: 600-1,400 baht
 * Suanthip Vana Resort (สวนทิพย์วนา รีสอร์ท) 49 Mu 4 Ban Pa Hiang, Km.107 Chiang Mai – Chiang Rai Rd., Tambon Thakok (Tel: 0 5372 4231-5, 0 5372 4226-9 Fax: 0 5372 4230 Bangkok Tel: 0 2619 0363-4, Fax: 0 2619 0208 www.suanthipresort.com E-mail: md@suanthipresort.com), 30 rooms: 3,800 baht Awarded the 4th Tourism Award 2002, Award of Outstanding Performance

Amphoe Mae Lao

 * Suan Kaew Resort (สวนแก้ว รีสอร์ท) 144 Mu 7 Tambon Dongmada (Tel: 05391 8194, 0 5391 4198), 8 rooms: 300 baht

Stay healthy
Hospitals

Chiang Rai has three quality hospitals.
 * Chiang Rai Regional Hospital Tel: 0 5371 1300
 * Kasaemrad Sriburin Hospital Tel: 0 5371 7499
 * Overbrooke Hospital Tel: 0 5371 1366

--(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:23, 3 February 2010 (EST)

=City=

Buy

 * Chiang Rai Handicraft (ศูนย์หัตถกรรมเชียงราย) 237 Mu 5 at Km.832 Tel: 0 5371 3355 (pottery, silk, cotton)
 * Doy Din Dang is a pottery which is both a gallery as a place to buy beautiful crockery and ceramics. You can see the whole process, from clay grinding, kneading, throwing, through glazing and the firing in the oven.
 * Hilltribe Handicrafts (หัตถกรรมชาวเขา) 620/25 Thanalai Rd, Tel: 0 5371 8869 (hilltribe handicrafts)
 * Healthy Choice (ร้านของโปรด) 179 Thanalai Rd., Tel: 0 5371 5533 (Healthy Food)
 * Javi Craft (ชาวี คราฟท์) 272 Mu 2 Ban Pa Yang Mon Tambon Robwiang Tel: 0 5374 2493 www.javi-craft.com (mulberry paper, handicraft products)
 * Lily Handicraft (ลิลลี่ แฮนดี้คราฟท์) 869/84 Phisitsangwan Road, Tel: 0 5371 7065
 * Nanthawan (แหนมนันทวัน) 68/4 Mae Kok rd., Tambon Rimkok Tel: 0 5375 1133, 0 5375 1116 (local food)
 * Silver Birch (ไม้มุงเงิน) 891 Phahonyothin Rd, Tel: 0 5371 4877 (silverware, wooden handicrafts)
 * Sujin Muyo (สุจินต์หมูยอ) 425/8 Banphaprakan Rd, Tel: 0 5371 2477 (spicy pork and local food products)
 * Thanyaporn (ธัญพร) 326 Ratyotha Rd., Tel: 0 5371 8869 (products from Mae Fa Luang Foundation)
 * T.S. Jewellry (ทีเอส จิวเวลลี่) 877-879/9 Phahonyothin Rd., Tel: 0 5371 1050 (precious stone)

Sleep

 * Chiang Rai Handicraft (ศูนย์หัตถกรรมเชียงราย) 237 Mu 5 at Km.832 Tel: 0 5371 3355 (pottery, silk, cotton)
 * Doy Din Dang is a pottery which is both a gallery as a place to buy beautiful crockery and ceramics. You can see the whole process, from clay grinding, kneading, throwing, through glazing and the firing in the oven.
 * Hilltribe Handicrafts (หัตถกรรมชาวเขา) 620/25 Thanalai Rd, Tel: 0 5371 8869 (hilltribe handicrafts)
 * Healthy Choice (ร้านของโปรด) 179 Thanalai Rd., Tel: 0 5371 5533 (Healthy Food)
 * Javi Craft (ชาวี คราฟท์) 272 Mu 2 Ban Pa Yang Mon Tambon Robwiang Tel: 0 5374 2493 www.javi-craft.com (mulberry paper, handicraft products)
 * Lily Handicraft (ลิลลี่ แฮนดี้คราฟท์) 869/84 Phisitsangwan Road, Tel: 0 5371 7065
 * Nanthawan (แหนมนันทวัน) 68/4 Mae Kok rd., Tambon Rimkok Tel: 0 5375 1133, 0 5375 1116 (local food)
 * Silver Birch (ไม้มุงเงิน) 891 Phahonyothin Rd, Tel: 0 5371 4877 (silverware, wooden handicrafts)
 * Sujin Muyo (สุจินต์หมูยอ) 425/8 Banphaprakan Rd, Tel: 0 5371 2477 (spicy pork and local food products)
 * Thanyaporn (ธัญพร) 326 Ratyotha Rd., Tel: 0 5371 8869 (products from Mae Fa Luang Foundation)
 * T.S. Jewellry (ทีเอส จิวเวลลี่) 877-879/9 Phahonyothin Rd., Tel: 0 5371 1050 (precious stone)

Mid-range

 * Ban Ing Doi Resort (บ้านอิงดอย รีสอร์ท) 603 Mu 14 Doi Khaokwai Rd., (Tel: 0 5371 7844-6, 0 5371 5883), www.ingdoicrresort.com, 35 rooms: 750-2,000 baht

 * Ban Lanna (บ้านล้านนา) 395 Mu 2 Tambon Rimkok (Tel: 0 53712555), 35 rooms: 1,200 baht

 * Ban Rabieng Chom Fa (บ้านระเบียงชมฟ้า) 386 Mu 5 Tambon Thasud (Tel: 0 5366 1118), 8 rooms: 2,500 baht

title: Talk:Chiang Rai/Listings


text:
Talk:Chiang Saen

TAT Sleep listings
Moved them here to clean up the main page a little bit. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:12, 15 February 2010 (EST)

 * Ban Suan House (บ้านสวน เฮาส์) 125 Mu 6 Liang Mueang Rd., (Tel: 0 5365 0907), 10 rooms: 500-600 baht
 * Bua Kham Resort (บัวคำ รีสอร์ท) 7 Mu 1 Tambon Wiang (Tel/ Fax: 0 5378 4035-6), 24 rooms: 500-2,000 baht
 * Chiang Saen Goldenland Resort (เชียงแสนโกลเด้นแลนด์ รีสอร์ท) 663 Tambon Wiang (Tel: 0 5365 1100, 0 5377 7123), 26 rooms: 800-1,500 baht
 * Chiang Saen Lake Hill Resort (เชียงแสน เลคฮิลล์ รีสอร์ท) 166 Mu 3 Tambon Yonok, Mae Chan - Chiang Saen Rd., km. 7 (Tel: 0 5365 0599, 0 5365 0826-9, Fax: 0 5365 0600), 30 rooms: 600-1,200 baht
 * AFECT a local NGO has basic rooms at its local Chaing Saen office (053-714250) Fax (66)-053-751079

--(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:12, 15 February 2010 (EST)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Chiang Saen


text:
Talk:Chianti

Old discussion
I'm not even sure this is a region; I just added it because I needed a place to put Greve, which I moved from Florence. Better arrangements cheerfully welcomed. --(WT-en) Evan 14:07, 25 May 2004 (EDT)

 * I'm pretty sure it's only "Classico" when you're talking about the wine region, otherwise just Chianti... but it's been about 10 years since I was there... I'll move it if I don't hear otherwise... (WT-en) Majnoona 12:29, 10 Apr 2005 (EDT)

 * The zone of Chianti Classico is the zone, where you can find this vine. [[User:(WT-en) pz-engl 18.4.2005

Chianti Classico is the wine brand used by brocucers of grapes that are in the central and historical sites of Chianti. Other Wines produced in Tuscany are named Chianti, referring to a larger area between Florence and Siena. Locations are adjacent to Chianti, so close that you can't tell one wine from the other but these are not produce of the original Chianti area.

The region name is Chianti. The wiki should be renamed Chianti. I will try to do this by myself. User:(WT-en) Dwdp 3 Oct 2006

New discussion
This item has been created from "Chianti Classico" whic does not deserve the right to be a Tuscany Area but only the wine brand. User:(WT-en) Dwdp 3 Oct 2006

Other destinations

 * Tavarnelle Val di Pesa
 * Montefioralle
 * Badia a Passignano
 * Lamole
 * Lecchi in Chianti

I cut these away from the article, as they clearly don't belong in it as they are right now. We need to figure out what to do with these places, maybe create proper articles for them. (WT-en) Timo Laine 12:56, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Chianti


text:
Talk:Chiba

Why isn't there a link to the Wikipedia-article about Chiba city? I see it in the history log but not in the article.

 * The link that you are looking for is in the bar to the left of the main article, listed under 'other sites' Hope that satisfactorily answers your question. (WT-en) WindHorse 24 Jan 06

-- Can you add info on trip times from the various points? It's hard to plan trips unless you know how long it takes from one point (let's say a major station in Tokyo) to Chiba via JR (or something)

Articles to merge into Chiba and Districts
The following articles are suggested to be merged into Chiba as they appear to be districts or suburbs of Chiba city rather than separate cities in the prefecture. The alternative to merger is to districtify Chiba, but I am not sure there is enough content to do this at present. - (WT-en) Huttite 19:56, 7 January 2010 (EST)
 * Kamatori
 * Oyumino

Article tone
A very persistent user has been fairly aggressive in removing information that is in any way negative from this article, and has refused to discuss these changes. As long as he/she continues to edit war the changes will be reverted since Project:Be fair is clear that articles should give an accurate view of a place, and Project:Tone encourages lively writing. However, it would be great if someone who knows this city could actually review the article and clean up anything that is overly negative. Alternately, if the user making these changes could try to gain some consensus for the changes then that would be great, also. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:29, 15 July 2010 (EDT)

 * Reading the article, I can see why someone would delete it. While the intro to the city is intriguing, the "See" section seems to be written by someone who doesn't really like the city. Too many listings are accompanied by cheeky/sarcastic remarks that seem to imply none of it is really worth seeing/doing. Most likely the shopping and futuristic attractions will need to be expanded upon if those are what make the city worthwhile... (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:02, 16 July 2010 (EDT)

 * Since that user appears to be up to at least four different sockpuppet accounts with a hankering for petty vandalism and deliberately misleading edit summaries, I'm personally not seeing any evidence of honest intentions.... though I do wonder if there's some misreading going on as well, since they're persistently deleting the portion of the introduction that specifically mentions that there is more to Chiba than its reputation suggests. – (WT-en) D. Guillaime 01:01, 16 July 2010 (EDT)

We mentioned what happen on a public source and we believe a few users did support booksmart2's position by creating additional accounts. WikiTravel has been praised in the past for having up to date information. However, we understand the writer wrote the piece well over a decade ago. It is also clear that the writer is a current admin. We are not sure this should affect the outcome. --(WT-en) Booksmart2 21:44, 16 July 2010 (EDT)

 * Dguillaime has it right. A cursory glance at Booksmart2's edit history shows there's no reason to take this user or his/her sockpuppets seriously. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:26, 16 July 2010 (EDT)

 * I'm not sure how trustworthy the user in question might be, but as a clarification the spate of vandalism was apparently retaliation against me for reverting edits - most of the vandalized articles were places linked from my user page. That's obviously a very poor way to handle having edits reverted, but the fact remains that the Chiba article could probably use some cleanup. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:31, 17 July 2010 (EDT)

 * I agree. Even something as simple as placing the Kaihin-Makuhari section at the top of the "See" section would at least draw attention to what is most worthwhile. Currently, the article begins with the tower, which has a descriptive, yet very sarcastic description. None of the first three attractions really seem worth seeing from our descriptions. I wouldn't doubt however, that the tower is not the best, and for those who appreciate authenticity and attempts at historical accuracy, the castle doesn't seem so great either . The average visitor probably wouldn't care though. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 01:54, 17 July 2010 (EDT)

 * Moving up the Kaihin-Makuhari section would also segue more neatly from the Neuromancer stuff in 'Understand'. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:17, 17 July 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Chiba


text:
Talk:Chișinău

I tried to improve the formatting of the 'Understand' section, but unfortunately I made it worse. Help needed! Thanks.

 * I made some small changes. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 13:55, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Alternative banner for this article?

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 06:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This banner is definitely better than the old one. --Alexander (talk) 07:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, way better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation
From the article:

Ukrainian: Кишинів (Kyshyniv), pronounced "Kishinau" with "nau" as in the English word "know"

That doesn't make sense. "Nau" wouldn't be pronounced "know." So how about "pronounced 'Keesheeno"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chișinău


text:
Talk:Chicago

Archives

 * Talk:Chicago/Archives 2010-12
 * Talk:Chicago/Archives 2008-09
 * Talk:Chicago/Archives 2003-07
 * Talk:Chicago/Districts discussion

To Do List
Here's what I think we need:

 * Itineraries for districts outside the city center
 * Improved coverage of Little Village shopping
 * Improved coverage of "do" activities in the Southwest Side
 * Updates. A lot has changed, but not a lot has been updated in the past year or so. Closed businesses need to be removed and replaced with new recommendations.

Suggestion in the Eat section: Add Gyros (ubiquitous in Chicago and our unique version was invented here) if not Greek food in general; and BBQ ribs.

Suburbs
Many suburbs are covered on the Chicagoland page and have only one attraction of note. However, there are a few that deserve fuller coverage as a complement to the Chicago set of articles, and need work accordingly. Post 'em here (but only if you're willing to work on them).

 * Evanston
 * Oak Park

Last updated by (WT-en) Peter Talk 04:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Article status

 * Stars (18): Chicago/Bronzeville, Chicago/Hyde Park, Chicago/Near South, Chicago skyline guide, Chicago/Near North, Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown, Along the Magnificent Mile, Chicago/Uptown, Chicago/Pilsen, Loop Art Tour, Chicago, Chicago/Wicker Park, Chicago/Loop, Chicago/North Lincoln, Chicago/Lincoln Park-Old Town, Chicago/Chatham-South Shore, Chicago/Lakeview-North Center, Chicago/Southwest Side

 * Guides (8): Chicago/Far Southwest Side, Chicago/Far Southeast Side, Chicago/Rogers Park, Chicago/Near West Side, Chicago/Far Northwest Side, Chicago/Far West Side, Chicago/Logan-Bucktown, O'Hare International Airport

Three-Level Streets in Chicago
Remains a mystery to me what any traveler is supposed to do with, which keeps getting reinserted into the article. I'm in that area on a regular basis and can barely picture what it's trying to describe. Gorilla Jones (talk) 22:23, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It makes perfect sense to me, but I'm not familiar with the area. LtPowers (talk) 01:22, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not perfect, but I had a good deal of fun with it (which required plenty of extra exploration beyond looking at the map), and explored it with an out-of-town friend who thought it was interesting/bizarre, having seen the map in the article. --Peter Talk 17:46, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

ToC banner
I've been really agonizing over what banner image to use for the table of contents. I eventually picked the one now up there, but thought I'd share the other ones I liked from the many that I tried making, in case other people agree that there's a better option. The skyline is the obvious subject, but we already have a nice skyline picture next to the lede, and I figure we could use the skyline banner below for Chicago skyline guide. --Peter Talk 21:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

 * And indeed, I've now added 6 to the Chicago skyline guide, and 8 to the Loop. --Peter Talk 23:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this looks fantastic, here and on the other articles. I'd suggest making a habit of moving the former lead image into 'Understand' for any cases where the lede is more than a line or two — the top of the article is a bit crowded visually. Really cool, though. Gorilla Jones (talk) 23:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * What about cropping this one

Victorgrigas (talk) 05:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you think that would be an improvement over the current banner, File:Chicago-banner7.jpg, which shows the same sign? Powers (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because it's brighter and more colorful Victorgrigas (talk) 03:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The background is, but surely the lit sign is brighter than the same sign when it's unlit? And what makes the brighter background an improvement?  Shouldn't the focus be on the sign?  Powers (talk) 00:09, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Commons image
Today's picture of the day on Commons is a Chicago image. Would it be useful here? Pashley (talk) 18:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's a nice one. And it fits nicely here.  --Peter Talk 21:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?

In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 06:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

 * No, the current is great and we have so many skylines. Jjtkk (talk) 07:24, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I somehow don't love this new banner, because the skyline peters out toward the right and therefore feels unbalanced to me. I could definitely imagine a better banner than the currently-used one, but I'm not feeling that this one is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:39, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Keep in mind that Hebrew reads right-to-left, so the banner works much better in Hebrew. That said, I cannot begin to fathom a better banner than the one we currently use.  Powers (talk) 22:00, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Mrs. O'Leary's cow
Is [//en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Chicago&type=revision&diff=2957693&oldid=2941692 this] really an improvement, considering our policy on tone? Powers (talk) 23:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Sarcasm
Regarding this edit, I found the sentence somewhat confusing when I read it, so I did my best to rephrase it to keep the lively tone while making it easier to understand. In your edit summary you linked to Tone, which recommends avoiding sarcasm—I think it's a good idea to follow that policy in this case. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:51, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't realize it would be difficult to understand. My problem is that your edit made for less engaging writing. Is there a way to make it clearer without losing the color? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That was what I tried to do, but I guess my rephrasing wasn't as vivid as the original sentence. I've made a smaller adjustment that hopefully will avoid the confusion while preserving the original imagery. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * FWIW, as a non-native speaker, I've found the older, "sarcastic" versions easier to understand. Vidimian (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * As a matter of style, I'm satisfied with the current phrasing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Are these itineraries too personal for FTT?
There are two itineraries in Chicago that have Star status; Loop Art Tour and Along the Magnificent Mile. Personal itineraries aren't allowed as FTT, so are these in your opinion too personal to be considered candidates for Featured Travel Topic? I brought them up in Chicago/Bronzeville's OtBP nomination but nobody commented. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:29, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * In my reading, we've tacitly backed far off our earlier anti-personal itinerary stance. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Great. It's usually trickier to find good FTT candidates and we have very few Star-rated topics (aside of Peter Southwood's brilliant diving articles), in fact these two are the only ones that come to my mind.
 * Plus, you recently mentioned next summer is quite heavy on European and North American destinations (well, much of Europe and North America can after all only be featured from May to September...), so we could have either of those itineraries representing Chicago and replace Chicago/Bronzeville with e.g. some destination in the tropics south of the Equator (these tend to have their dry season in the Northern Hemisphere summer) or East Asia to get some variation. Just a suggestion. --ϒpsilon (talk) 17:35, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 * The Magnificent Mile, at least, isn't a personal itinerary; it's a recognized route. Powers (talk) 00:16, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Map criticized
The "districts map" used was heavily criticized in this Chicago Tribune article November 30, 2018: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-worst-chicago-neighborhood-map-ever-20181130-story.html. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

 * That map seems to be slightly different from the one used in this article, and anyway a T-shirt is a different medium from a travel guide – the first should probably use official neighborhoods, whereas the second should sometimes lump together neighborhoods with few attractions. If our districts aren't good, though, we can certainly change them. That would mean restructuring all the district articles – we can't substantively change the map without changing the articles too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:06, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Even if the article in question were pointed squarely at WV, which it's not, it would be an unfair and unwanted complaint. WV creates "districts" according to its own rules, foremost of which is The traveller comes first. The official name ordinance they link to defines 77 "community areas" and 178 "neighborhoods". That may be useful for locals, but it's a very bad fit for WV or any other travel guide. There's a big difference between a T-shirt design intended for locals, and a travel guide intended for visitors. --Bigpeteb (talk) 00:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * A travel guide is not meant to make up fiction -- unless it is a crappy travel guide The map I changed to did lump together, and the map that was reverted to, the map that's in the article now, does not match the text of the article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:07, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

 * That's certainly a problem. Could you please point out where our map doesn't match the text and where the guide makes up fiction? Those are things we should fix as soon as possible. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:39, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

destar Chicago districts
Has been some time since this was made star status; what is required of an article has changed in particular coordinates of listings. Also on updating Chicago/Uptown a number of business were identified as closed. Time for review of the articles. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:27, 3 December 2018 (UTC) Following articles need coordinates for eat and sleep listings: Chicago/Hyde Park, Chicago/Lakeview-North Center, Chicago/Lincoln Park-Old Town, Chicago/Near South, Chicago/North Lincoln, Chicago/Southwest Side, Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The district I saw didn't look like star status to me. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 17:47, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Richard J. Daley
Let's discuss this edit. The older Mr. Daley was known for not brooking opposition, and was famous around the country for his direction to the Chicago police to brutalize demonstrators at the 1968 Democratic National Convention. So I have the feeling that edit is not really in keeping with Be fair but whitewashes history in important ways. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I-80
Interstate 80 technically doesn’t go into Chicago. It gets closer to New York then Chicago. Interstate 88 here is comparable to Interstate 84 with NYC, Interstate 41 is comparable to Future Interstate 86 and Interstate 91 is comparable to Interstate 65. I was told from User talk: Bigpeteb to come here. It is really just as much of a lie as this as saying that US Route 6 goes into New York City, Interstate 30 ends in Fort Worth or Interstate 88(New York)goes into Binghamton or Albany. 2600:387:5:80D:0:0:0:8A 21:34, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

 * As discussed on Bigpeteb's user talk page, the only thing that matters is whether a road is of practical use in getting to a city. Technical facts not bearing on that aren't very important in a travel guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * in that case Interstate 80 should be mentioned in New York City and Cleavland, Interstate 29 should be mentioned in Omaha, Interstate 59 should be mentioned in Chattenoga and Interstate 95 should be mentioned in Washington DC and Boston! The reason is 80 is within sixteen kilometers of the two cities and provides access to other cities like Chicago(almost)and as well as throughout central Pennsylvania. Interstate 29 is a major highway from Kansas City to Porter, ND, and is on the other side of the Missouri River. Interstate 59 is only a couple miles from Chattenoga, TN(despite ending in a completely different state, Georgia, at Willwood), and provides access to Birmingham and Tuscaloosa, and Interstate 95 is technically in DC(but no access to the rest of the city)and while not directly in Boston connects it to Providence and New York, as well as Portsmouth, NH. A lot of times interstates get very close to cities. Another example is Interstate 86 and 88-they both get very close to Binghamton, NY, and Interstate 88 is also close to Albany, NY(though these cities, at under 100,000 residents, are not major). Interstate 88 is in the same county as the city!

 * However, then we get too close to cut. Interstate 57 goes cross the state and intersects Interstate 24 over 300 miles, though it does make up part of the connector from St Louis to Atlanta. It intersects Interstate 64 nearly 300 miles away, Interstate 70 at over 200, and sill, Interstate 72 and 74 intersect it 150 miles away! It is like saying Interstate 91 goes into NYC. Anyway, I am leaving for now. Bye! 2600:387:5:80D:0:0:0:8A 8:22 PM, 29 June 2020 (UTC-4)

 * Route 80 could be mentioned in New York City if we decided to go into more detail about how to drive to New York. Interstates that are used to drive between major cities are worth mentioning for practical reasons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * @Anonymous: I guess you didn't check the examples that you listed. Omaha is missing a "Get in - By car" section, which is an oversight, but Cleveland does mention I-80, Chattanooga does mention I-59, DC and Boston do mention I-95, Binghamton does mention I-86 and I-88, and Albany (New York) does mention I-88. (NYC omits I-80, but that's because it's a huge article with a tendency to bloat, and it's already enough work explaining how to get into the city proper. It's assumed that readers will use a map of some kind to figure out how to get close, as there are far too many options to list them all while keeping the article brief.)
 * This really ought to indicate that the inclusion of I-80 in Chicago is not a mistake but is a deliberate choice. --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:07, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I see. I would resolve the section if we had that template. 2600:387:5:805:0:0:0:4B 23:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC) [unindent] What template? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Are our Chicago districts star or guide?
There seems to be a little bit of confusion into whether our Chicago districts are star or guide (List below on which ones). From looking into archives, it seems before 2018, they were all star articles. Until nominated to destar the Chicago districts as a lot of work was needed to make them all star. With the nomination having gone unanswered, they were then partially demoted such as the one here in Bridgeport-Chinatown, but then:
 * 1) their banners weren't changed
 * 2) they weren't removed from Star articles

Just a list of which articles from Traveler100's comment in the destar nom:
 * Chicago/Hyde Park
 * Chicago/Lakeview-North Center
 * Chicago/Lincoln Park-Old Town
 * Chicago/Near South
 * Chicago/North Lincoln
 * Chicago/Southwest Side
 * Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown

As Traveler100's lastedit was almost two years back, we probably need to sort this out without them. If I had to give my opinion, I'd say guide as there's a fair bit to do here that takes quite some time and effort, but may change my mind.

-- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:27, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

 * I looked at Hyde Park, and was surprised to see very few map coordinates or dates for when the listings were last updated. It's an overall great article, but I believe that it needs at least several hours' worth of fairly tedious work to double-check that businesses still exist, add their lat/long locations, and update hours and prices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've removed the star parameter off all the linked districts. Will remove them off Star articles soon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes i love to contribs 41.114.148.59 16:50, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

"South Shore trains cannot carry passengers whose journey is entirely within the State of Illinois"
Does this literally mean that there are restrictions on starting a South Shore Line journey at an Illinois station and ending it at another Illinois station, or just that most of the line is in Indiana? Eldomtom2 (talk) 14:03, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

St. Louis
St. Louis is not the largest city in Missouri. It seems like I can't add an image so I'll leave a link.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kansas+city+mo+population&oq=kansas+city+mo+popul&aqs=chrome.0.0i512l2j69i57j0i512l3j0i22i30l4.4509j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Sorry if I'm not doing this right. 2600:1702:E0:1250:FCAB:5F4C:9DFF:9D21 11:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 * What's the relevance? In any case, if there's an incorrect statement in this article, remove it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I presume the anon is referring to the statement mentioned in Chicago in the Go next section. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 12:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chicago


text:
Talk:Chicago/Archives 2003-07

Links
So as a new contributor I have a question. I think we can agree to disagree about 'metromix blogeratti bullshit' (as Evan described it so tactfully in the page's history :) but is it really innappropriate to include links to listing mags? They're updated regularly and contain lots of good information for tourists and residents alike. Even if they shouldn't be up front, shouldn't they be included somewhere else in the entry? I understand building a web directory is a non-goal for the site, but are links to the Reader and Metromix really unwelcome?

 * OK, I was a little hasty. In fact, local newspapers and listings sites are useful resources for travelers, and should have a place in the city guides. I'd guess some would make good External links, and others could be included under Understand or Drink or Do. I guess I really didn't like the intro to Chicago -- "All you need to know is in Metromix". When it just got into who's got the best guide, I threw the whole thing out and wrote a real intro. I probably should have merged that data farther down into the page. Thanks for the reality check. -- (WT-en) Evan 17:30, 20 Nov 2003 (PST)

 * I totally agree that local newspapers and listings sites are useful resources. I'm putting them back. -- (WT-en) Mark 05:17, 28 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Listings
I pulled these links back out.

 * Metromix -- reviews of Chicago clubs and restaurants
 * Gapers' Block -- listings Web site
 * X Chicago Arts -- listings of chicago art/film events

I'd appreciate it if we could work out this issue on the appropriate guidelines page before getting into edit wars on this page.

I added the Chicago Reader as part of the "Understand" section, since that's where we usually put newspaper info. --(WT-en) Evan 14:50, 28 Jul 2004 (EDT)

 * Sorry about the hasty reversion.. I have to confess to a particular soft-spot for the Reader, since I met my wife through one of their "Matches" ads. -- (WT-en) Mark

A bunch of links from anon user
Hey, An IP user just added all of this stuff to Chicago, quite a bit of it should be mined for listings:

Spaces Mess Hall http://www.my.calendars.net/messhall Stockyard Institute http://www.stockyardinstitute.org/ Buddy Space http://www.lumpen.com/buddy/yes.html Polvo http://www.polvo.org/ more art spaces and openings can be found at www.spaces.org

groups Street Level youth media http://streetlevel.iit.edu/ >a really great group which does alot of local events and helps run mess hall http://www.temporaryservices.org/ http://chicago.indymedia.org/ Pink Bloque feminist protest dance troupe - a bit more tactical than radical cheerleaders http://www.pinkbloque.org/ CPI www.counterproductiveindustries.com queer to the left http://www.queertotheleft.org/ Genewise (anti biotech) http://www.genewise.org/index.php pilotchicago.org trans feminist TV www.lumpen.com alot of links and events

The Second City
I say we leave the anon edit about the city's --epitath-- epithet. I've always thought it meant second to NYC and I actually lived in Chicago for 7 years. -- (WT-en) Mark 17:55, 28 Aug 2005 (EDT)

 * http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Epitaph

68.77.6.115 I made a few factual corrections and a couple of additions. I think an events list should be added, as these events provide real value for money because they are free. Consider, Blues Fest, Gospel Fest, etc. as well as St. Patrick's Day parade (where they even come to see it from Ireland) as well as the Christmas Market at Daley Plaza. Also, there is an excellent little museum at the State of Illinois Building that should be considered. The food court located in the basement of that building should also be pointed out, because it provides good, cheap food directly downtown at a very affordable price. In addition, there is tourist information on the first floor of the State of Illinois building as well as on the first floor of City Hall. There are also numerous free performances at City Hall on a regular basis and there probably is an external link for that. The map of the three level streets seems a strange inclusion, a small map of downtown would probably be more helpful. There is no mention of the new Millenium Park with interesting sculpture and fountains. Also, Chicago boasts an number of famous large outdoor sculpures by persons as notable as Picasso, Miro, Calder, etc. They should have a separate section. At attendant at each "el" stop may officially exist, but travelers shouldn't count on them because they aren't always there. There is no mention of best information regarding finding places, which would be local policeman, and just people who look local on the street. Chicagoans are happy to help tourists find their way, and there is no mention of that. Nor is there any mention of serveral historically important early skyscrapers, or any plan to go sighseeing just be going on the "el."

 * Welcome to Wikivoyage. Thanks for taking the time to make the fixes and listing everything you'd like to see here, but by far the fastest way to make it happen is to enter it on the main page itself! (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:04, 27 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Leo's ????? No! Not Leo's.
Oh god. My youth really is over now, if it's true that Leo's has closed. Please somebody say it isn't so. First Tuman's and now Leo's. I guess InnerTown is next. -- (WT-en) Mark 17:51, 13 Feb 2006 (EST)

Hotel in Evanston
This hotel was added to the Chicago article but should be listed in the Evanston article if/when that article is created:

 * Best Western Evanston - Run-down hotel. Ok enough, but wireless internet is poor, fitness room was closed, fan in bathroom didn't work drain was funky in bathroom and remote was missing.

-- (WT-en) Ryan 02:11, 25 February 2007 (EST)

Done. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:47, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Time to break this up
I think it's long past time to split out the bits of the article that refer to various suburbs, especially suburbs that aren't in Cook County, since they mess up the geographical hierarchy at least.

I'm going to give it a couple of days, and if nobody says anything I'll start working on a new Chicagoland hierarchy. Otherwise let's discuss. -- (WT-en) Mark 20:16, 5 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Full support—the article as it stands is cluttered, confusing, and the suburban info gets in the way for those visiting just the city itself. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 00:32, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

 * I'd say that Evanston more than warrants a page of its own. I'd be happy to get it started. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 14:35, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

Tone
Hi all. I'm really pleased with the progress of the Chicago article. This is going really well.

However, I noticed that the "four corners" language of the North Side paragraph has been watered down to something that sounds more like an encyclopedia. I guess that's OK, but I'd just like to remind everybody that we're writing a travel guide, so let's try to keep the tone a little more cheeky if possible.

When in doubt let's try to err on the side of fun reading, rather than strictly non-offensive. Thanks! -- (WT-en) Mark 03:13, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

See & Do
Please reorder those sections as you see fit - I pretty much typed them out in the order they occurred to me. If you see any major general Chicago sight-seeing themes that I didn't cover, add 'em. It should be a concise list, but should point visitors to the major possibilities of what they would see or do in Chicago. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:20, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

 * We usually place sports and theater listings in "Do" sections and nightlife (like jazz clubs) in the "Drink" sections of articles. Would it make sense to move these topics to similar sections of this article? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:27, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Looking at Project:Where_you_can_stick_it, I see you're right. Sports and theaters should be moved to Do. Jazz and blues kind of mix See (the historic sights) with nightlife, so I'm not sure where they are better situated. Maybe Drink simply because it's such an underfed section - I could do a comparable sub-section for rock clubs, I guess. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:57, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Events anyone?
Hey all, especially Peter and Gorilla Jones. Are either (any) of you interested in Chicago events? I've been working on our delegate site Wikevent, and have 3 going in Chicago now. It would be fantastic if somebody with more recent Chicago experience could help do the "featured events". Of course if you're not into it please ignore.. thanks! -- (WT-en) Mark 04:41, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

Need some more info on the climate
It'd be good if someone could add in the climate section. The following info would be appreciated:

1. When does it generally start snowing here?

2. Whats the best attire/clothing required to brave the harsh winters (monthly basis)

This info would help international travelers... Thanks!

 * International travelers should look more closely: the climate is covered in both 'Understand' and 'Stay safe'! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 15:29, 27 October 2007 (EDT)

Print readiness
I figure it might be useful to list which Chicago articles (aside from the main one) are print ready, which need more work, and what work they need. Please feel free to revise as desired. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 05:47, 25 October 2007 (EDT)

Ready
 * Chicago/Near South
 * Chicago/North Lincoln
 * Chicago/Bronzeville
 * Chicago/South Chicago Shore
 * Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown
 * Chicago/Far Southeast Side
 * Chicago/Far Southwest Side
 * Chicago/Southwest Side
 * Chicago/Midway Area
 * O'Hare International Airport
 * Along the Magnificent Mile
 * Chicago/Far West Side
 * Chicago/Far Northwest Side
 * Chicago/Uptown
 * Chicago/Pilsen
 * Chicago/Lakeview-North Center
 * Chicago/Wicker Park
 * Chicago/Lincoln Park-Old Town
 * Chicago/Near West Side
 * Loop Art Tour
 * Chicago/Loop
 * Chicago/Near North
 * Chicago/Logan-Bucktown
 * Chicago/Rogers Park
 * Chicago

Just about ready
 * None

last edited by (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 02:44, 6 January 2008 (EST)

Chicago literature
One thing I've always liked in the LP books is that they provide a brief overview of some of the more important literary/film works related to a city — makes for great "research" before heading out to the destination. I'm not sure exactly where we would put this information in the article, but I would like to point people towards works like: Dybeck's The Coast of Chicago, Richard Wright's Native Son, Sinclair's The Jungle, Saul Bellow's The Dean's December, Sandburg's Chicago Poems, Dreiser's Sister Carrie, Gwendolyn Brooks' A Street in Bronzeville. Or some more popular Chicago-centric works like Ferris Bueller's Day Off, The Blues Brothers, Wayne's World, Adventures in Babysitting, etc.

Much of these could go into neighborhood articles, I suppose, but still it seems to me like a devoted section would be nice. Maybe just as a subsection of understand? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:32, 18 December 2007 (EST)

 * I've been intending to do this, too - a good fit for 'Understand' in the main article, I think. We could do quick lists for books and movies. I seem to recall a precedent for this in a Wikivoyage policy article somewhere. Write up a few and I'll chime in. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 02:08, 18 December 2007 (EST)

title: Talk:Chicago/Archives 2003-07


text:
Talk:Chicago/Archives 2008-09

Star Article Status
surely it is, or nearly is at that point, tonnes of maps (including slightly concerning one of crimes per a neighbourhood!) it feels like a guidebook (with more information and better written than some lonely planet and rough guide books) - what do other people think?

(WT-en) Prof Jack 17:59, 10 December 2007 (EST)

 * It already meets the criteria for certain, but (WT-en) Marc and I still have a bunch of content we'll be adding before the end of this month. I'd like to hold off on the nomination until then. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:40, 11 December 2007 (EST)

 * We are there! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:09, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Star nomination
I believe this long article is completely MoSed, has several nice maps, lots of good pictures, and (IMO) better quality information than any other guide to the city I've seen. That and every district article is at least guide status. If others agree, this will become our second huge city star. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * Support. By the numbers, Chicago has 22 district/airport articles (seven stars, fifteen guides - not counting the nominations below), 2 itineraries (both stars) and a travel topic (also a star), all of which have maps. The main article itself has a great overview map, district map, and even a crime map. The writing is lively and ties the areas of the city together, it's up to date, and I'm quite proud of the work we've done with it. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

 * Support. You guys have done an absolutely magnificent job on this city. You've set a new standard for our large cities with thorough listings, great pictures and maps, and engaging writing. I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that this is probably the best guide on Chicago ever written, period. And congratulations on getting it through Wikivoyage Press! You guys have really outdone yourselves and done a great service to both Chicago and Wikivoyage. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
 * Anyone else care to pipe in and just say "support?" This would be only the second huge city star—kind of a big deal by WT standards, I think. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * On a second look at the page, I've noticed that the Get In by train section seems oddly lacking. Not a big enough deal to make me change my vote of support, but I feel like there could be more info there (Addresses? Phone numbers? List of Amtrak routes which serve the station? I dunno...).
 * That's a fair critique. I'm avoiding listing Amtrak routes, because that would quickly turn into a list of all major US cities save perhaps Las Vegas, oddly. The lack of a Metra System map was actually kind of glaring, in retrospect, but I've put that in now, as well as the main out-of-Chicagoland termini, and phone #s for both companies. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:52, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * Awesome, I'm satisfied now. :) (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

External research links
I'm moving Kevin Forsyth's link to the Blues Brothers filming locations map here, because it conflicts with our external links policy. As much as I like the map and his page, I can't really countenance going against such a time honored policy, nor can we nominate the Chicago article for star status as long as it violates policy. Hopefully interested parties may find it here. Also, it could be adapted for WT format, either by adding especially noteworthy locations to the district articles, or ideally by creating a Blues Brothers driving itinerary (which would be awesome). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:55, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Jazz truths
I understand the anon objection to the phrase "the truth of jazz," since it is a bit fluffy. But the anon's replacement sentence, "Chicago is the home of the blues, the heart of comedy, and the idea of the skyscraper," is an ugly list and a considerable degradation in style. Perhaps we could come up with something to replace the truth of jazz, preserving the existing syntax? My brain's fried right now (reading too much Machiavelli) and I can't seem to come up with anything better. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:59, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

Taxi tipping
Do taxi meters include tips or are those extra?--66.237.109.194 23:54, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * They're extra. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:56, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

CTA rail map
The CTA map needs updating. The Blue line no longer makes any runs along the 54/Cermak (Douglas) branch, which is now exclusively served by the Pink line. (WT-en) Eco84 22:09, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Thanks for pointing this out! Unfortunately, this is the only graphic used in the Chicago guide for which we don't have an svg source (argh...), so it'll be a pain to update. I'm going to dawdle and see whether someone from Wikipedia doesn't take care of this first, but if not, I'll create a new CTA map by the end of the month. (Note to self: also remember to update this change on the Far West Side map.) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:40, 4 July 2008 (EDT)

 * The version of this map on Wikimedia Commons has now been updated by myself. It still needs to be updated here. (WT-en) Eco84 01:38, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Alright, I uploaded the new version to Wikivoyage Shared, so everything should be okay now. (WT-en) Eco84 22:15, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

 * Great! Thanks for taking care of that. (I still have to remember that Far West Side map change, though.) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:38, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Long mug of a consulates list
The consulates list is long. Would it make sense/be acceptable to move it to a subpage of Chicago, dedicated solely to the list? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:04, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

 * In any rate, I supressed the list from appearing in the WTP print guide. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:56, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Why are taxi fares being removed?
Gorilla Jones removed on 18:52, 15 October 2008 a list of taxi fare web apps for Chicago. Why have they been removed? In Project:External links it is not explicitly forbidden (in the What not to link to section) to have links to services like these; although I agree these may not be strictly primary sources, they do provide VERY useful information for visitors of Chicago.

It can be argued that they qualify under the External link usage, In-article text links section

''Links within the article text should be kept to a minimum and should point only to primary sources. Examples of valid links might include airline companies, bus companies, and sites offering daily updates and warnings about a destination's condition''

Moreover, just in the next paragraph there is a list of actual taxi companies of Chicago, so I do not see the sense in allowing taxi companies to be listed, but not services that will inform about exact prices to expect from these taxi companies.

So once again, I do not understand why this list of links are not acceptable. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 80.34.173.216 (talk • contribs)

 * Because those aren't primary sources, and the actual taxi companies are. It's as simple as that. That last clause of the section you quoted refers to severe cases like the roads to Siem Reap or civil unrest in Myanmar, not whether you're in danger of being overcharged by a taxi driver. If you disagree with the external links policy, please discuss on the talk page there. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:22, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

 * I do not want to enter into a flame war here, but, quoting myself although I agree these may not be strictly primary sources, they do provide VERY useful information for visitors of Chicago. There is the textual description of the fare system, but that will help no one new to the city to get an estimate of how much she can expect to pay for a taxi. It's pretty much a perfectly accurate but mostly useless piece of information. If this is to be an useful travel guide, then VERY useful tools that provide actual information like these should be allowed to be linked. I know that the external links policy page is where this issue has to be brought up, so no need to repeat that. But I want to clarify my position also here. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 80.34.173.216 (talk • contribs)

Anything?
Is there anything that you Chicagonians need added to the Chicago section that I could look for? Or are ye guys pretty much set?

(WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 19:19, 22 October 2008 (EDT)Edmontonenthusiast

 * Aside from keeping listings current, there really isn't much to be done here. Although we are short on good pictures for the Near West Side, so if you have them, they would be appreciated ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:28, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well I have never been to the 'Windy City'. Like, I mean, I think Chicago is beautiful, and whatnot and I'd not mind researching some stuff for this article-but I have no pics :(.  Sorry!  Keep smiling, (WT-en) Edmontonenthusiast 11:50, 3 November 2008 (EST).

Understand
Thank you so much for whoever wrote the Understand section. It reads well and is very informatvie & inspiring. happy holidays, (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 12:14, 25 December 2008 (EST).

B&B aggregator
I removed a B & B aggregator that was added to the overview article today, but a casual glance at the site revealed some inns that we have not included in the Chicago guide that probably should be added. So I'll leave this link here for research. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:41, 18 February 2009 (EST)

Get Around - Street "numbers"
The section on navigating Chicago is confusing (and I might be contributing to the obfuscation), but here's how I read the following:
 * "Each street is assigned a number based on its distance from the zero point of the address system, the intersection of State Street and Madison Street. A street with a W (west) or E (east) number runs north-south, while a street with a N (north) or S (south) number runs east-west. A street's number is usually written on street signs at intersections, below the street name."

This is not talking about house numbers, it's talking about the numbers assigned to streets. One example given in the article is Western Avenue, at 2400 W. This number tells us that Western (a north-south street) is 24 blocks west of center, that it crosses east-west streets at the 2400 address. Yes, it's confusing and seems counter-intuitive the way it's written. I'm still pondering a better way to phrase it. (WT-en) Kevin Forsyth 08:34, 6 March 2009 (EST)

 * Hmm. So you are saying that each street is assigned a number? If so, is this relevant for the traveler? I would think that the main thing is for travelers to understand where the address is located that they are traveling to, or for that matter that an north-south street is named N or S depending on what side of the city you are on. That's relevant for very practical things, like telling a cab company where you are, or making sure you go to the correct address. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:34, 6 March 2009 (EST)

 * Yes, each street is assigned a number: Racine=1200W, North=1600N, Cermak=2200S, etc. I think it is relevant for a traveler. For example, let's say you want to go to 2801 N. Pulaski. Knowing that Pulaski=4000W is helpful because that gives you a grid coordinate to aim for — (2800N, 4000W) — and enables you to estimate your distance from it. Knowing that Diversey=2800N gives you a major intersection (Diversey and Pulaski) which improves your chances with cab drivers who might be insufficiently familiar with obscure side streets (Pulaski not being an example of this). If you still doubt the relevance, check out the CTA: their maps are full of green numbers alongside the major street names, and every train station is marked with its position on the grid — not its street address.
 * That said, the paragraph remains confusing. As is, perhaps, this explanation. (WT-en) Kevin Forsyth 13:55, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

 * That makes a lot of sense, but I still worry that this information might simply overwhelm a visitor, especially since it is easy to get mixed up with the address system, which I think is more important. Visitors will not likely know these grid numbers, and even if they did, it would probably be easier for them to just check the maps throughout the guides which have relevant locations marked. This just seems to me like a level of expertise beyond the needs of travelers. I'll leave it alone for other opinions to decide, though. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:02, 10 March 2009 (EDT)

 * Fair enough — as it's written, I agree it's overwhelming and/or overkill. I'll ponder a fix/clean-up/simplification.  One way or another I think it's worth explaining to visitors why the street signs at major intersections (and train platforms) have these inscrutable numbers on them. (WT-en) Kevin Forsyth 13:04, 11 March 2009 (EDT)

Putting in clearer images in the Chicago guide?
Wow, Chicago is such a great guide and I'd love to contribute. Is it worth substituting some current images in the articles with more fresher and clearer Flickr CC images? I changed the first image in the Chicago article but I'm hesitant to do more unless everyone is ok with it? Thanks. --(WT-en) MarinaK 18:59, 9 March 2009 (EDT)MarinaK.

 * Sorry, but that image was awful. If the sky is that yellow anywhere on Earth, I'm glad it isn't in Chicago, and angle made my neck hurt. We can always use more images, but the district articles are generally more in need of help than the main article. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:02, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

 * I just thought it was an unusual and striking image for Chicago rather than the standard 'Chicago skyline at night' (which is still quite beautiful). Point taken though! : ) --(WT-en) MarinaK 19:08, 9 March 2009 (EDT)MarinaK.

 * Heh. Thanks — sorry if that came off as harsh! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:11, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

 * I think a good number of the images throughout the Chicago articles could stand to be replaced with higher resolution, sharper images. Especially those taken by me with a crappy digital camera. I'm a partisan for the composition of the lead image, though (which is not surprising, since I took it). The night skyline itself is generic, although that particular view of the historic Michigan Ave front has a lot of Chicago soul in it, but more importantly the subject is more the Frank Gehry Bridge. It looks welcoming. The Sears Tower photo you uploaded is a cool shot, but suffers from the coloring and a general lack of love for the Sears Tower.

 * On a broader note, no need to be shy about editing the Chicago articles, just keep in mind that new edits to them are probably patrolled more rigorously than for any other articles on Wikivoyage ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:20, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Non-Stop Flights
I've removed the lengthy lists of cities that have non-stop flights to O'Hare, Midway, and Milwaukee's Hiawatha Airport. In Hiawatha's case, that info belongs in Milwaukee, not here. For the other two, those lists belong in O'Hare International Airport and Chicago/Midway Area respectively, although I'd argue that those lists are not as vital for Chicago as for some smaller cities — as demonstrated by the lengths of the lists, plenty of airlines fly direct here. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:36, 2 April 2009 (EDT)

Milwaukee airport
I removed this: ''Midwest Airlines has its main hub at Milwaukee. AirTran serves 14 destinations from Milwaukee, versus 5 from Chicago Midway.''

Milwaukee has its own article, which is where a list of airlines serving the Milwaukee airport logically belongs. There is no need to duplicate that information here. It's fine to note that Milwaukee's airport can be considered as an alternative to Chicago's two airports — although I've never heard of someone actually doing it — but when you're getting into which airlines fly there and how often they fly, that belongs on Milwaukee, not here. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 13:58, 4 April 2009 (EDT)

 * I think it was probably added by someone who is very proud of Milwaukee, and since the Milwaukee article lists Chicago as a Get in option, they felt it might also be worthy to add Mitchell to the Chicago article. Just a guess. I'd agree with you folks don't really look to Milwaukee is a true alternative to "get in." If you can't find a flight to ORD or Midway, or train, bus, etc., then it's probably more likely to see snowballs in July.(WT-en) Zepppep 15:54, 29 January 2010 (EST)

Consulates
While the discussion on where to place this information is ongoing, I'd like to bring up a related idea. The Consulate sections here and elsewhere strike me as dull and lifeless, and very boring to scroll through. I've experimented with a way to breathe some life into these sections: User:(WT-en) Jtesla16/Sandbox. I think it makes the section more fun and doesn't take away from any of the value, thoughts? --(WT-en) Jtesla16 22:07, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

 * Very nice! I'd love to see that implemented. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:55, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

 * Definitely—I'm intrigued that those listing tags still work when embedded in a table! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:31, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

Makes no sense
What's the point of being able to edit articles here or on Wikipedia when an administrator is simply going to revert it back? I can understand if something silly or absurd is written, but when you are writing a logical statement in a better form than it currently is and its just changed back, well,... I don't know. Are the administrators getting offended? The point of this website is to be able to edit sometimes, right?. So when Wikipedia asks for money to continue operating, I think hmmm. Even if you change a statement like say, "Chicago is a large city" to "Chicago is the nation's third largest city", within seconds its changed back. Why should I contribute to this when its not living up to its initial function? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 66.192.176.30 (talk • contribs)

 * This website has no connection to Wikipedia, despite using the MediaWiki software, so nobody here can speak to what happens there. Wikivoyage isn't asking for money to continue operating. You may want to read Project:Welcome, Wikipedians, Project:Be fair, and Project:Tone to understand why the kind of writing that's done on Wikipedia differs from what is done here. Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view; this site places an emphasis on lively writing, and reducing lively writing to bare "logical statements" isn't preferred. Also, if you add duplicate information to an article of this length — or references to articles that don't exist — that's likely to get reverted as well. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:06, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Nothing more frustrating then your first attempt at editing being largely reverted, though...
 * This is my first visit to the Talk page for Chicago - and my take on it is that it seems to be crying out "Don't edit me" - unless you are local, and know something has changed. I'd like to think that every traveller to a place has at least one bit of good info to point the next traveller to, or can clarify something they didn't understand.  Who wants a travel guide just updated by locals?  --(WT-en) Inas 00:13, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Only one person is ever going to get to note that the Blue Line goes to O'Hare. Everyone else has to find a different piece of info to add if they want to contribute to this guide. All we can do is note in the edit summary and/or their talk page why the duplicate information isn't there any more. There are plenty of areas ripe for contributions from travelers, such as new bars, restaurants, and tourist attractions, especially in the district articles. See for example Chicago/Lakeview-North Center, which took a huge jump in size thanks to a slew of bars from a recent contributor. I do invite your feedback on the disclaimer at the top of this page if it comes off as forbidding. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:13, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Well that comment in itself sounds more inviting, in addition to being quite down-to-earth. I'd personally steal your words and put them at the top.  We're looking for new and better content.  I've no problem with setting the bar high for contributions to guide level articles.  They should be formatted well and maintain the high standard of the article.   --(WT-en) Inas 01:34, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

 * The intent of the disclaimer was mostly just to soften the landing for when newly added content is drastically cut down in size. The tendency of wikis is to grow, but at a certain point you can get too much content. Cramming more hotels onto the Chicago/Near North map, for example, is only going to make the map less readable. As for the "locals" bit, I think I wrote that only because I was not a local to some of the areas I wrote about and hoped someone would proof my work! But absolutely, being a neighborhood resident is in no way a prerequisite to having good information.

 * Please feel free to edit that blurb further. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:09, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

 * Done. --(WT-en) inas 20:29, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Wikivoyage is about lively writing (as noted above). Is it just me, or are the African-American history and Sports sections a bit unlively, if not overly long? I think the former should be a)shortened, as it seems Wikiepedia-like b)put into Understand perhaps because there is only one thing mentioned in all those hundreds of words that actually belongs in See (DuSable Museum, which isn't even mentioned in the See--Museum subsection!) and the Sports section seems to be a bit consumed with post-Jordan-era language. (WT-en) Zepppep 22:28, 20 November 2009 (EST)

I'm a bit confused — the Sports section has the Super Bowl Shuffle, fists banging on tables, and expressions of tribal fury. That's not lively? Also, for pre-Jordan language, it has Butkus, Singletary, Payton, the NHL's Original Six, and a dogged loyalty to "Comiskey". That seems like a pretty fair among of history, considering that the post-Jordan era is all that a visitor can experience without aid of a time machine.

As for African-American history, you might click through to some of the district articles linked in that section (especially Bronzeville), as there's a lot more than the DuSable Museum. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:16, 21 November 2009 (EST)

 * A-American was what seemed a bit Wikipedia-like (e.g., Great Migration), the Sports section a bit wordy. I like to call myself an amateur historian, and considering visitors to Chicago might a) find the extensive background a bit overwhelming or b) non-essential and therefore might ignore it (which is totally fine, considering people can decide for themselves which info. is helpful to them but begs the question if it's ignored, just how relevant is the info. in travel guide?). The fact it's in Do and not Understand might be a bit confusing for travelers, or at least it is to me, considering at this point in time there's only 1 actual place, DuSable, mentiond to actually do something in and the other info. seems to give good context to the understanding of various districts, so just wondering why this info. is in this spot. Another point I was trying to make (albeit politely as I realize Chicago is a Huge City and it makes sense things can't be lined up in a bullet list all the time and some context and interest-sparking are pinnacles of good guides) is it seems Wikipedia-like and since folks who are seriously making a (first time) visit to the Windy City are finding Wikivoyage online and thus have a wealth of other sources at their fingertips should the article focus more on the items that can be easily found on Wikipedia or Encarta books, or more so on insights and tips that would be helpful to the traveler about ____?

Lastly, I agree detailed info. about such and such museum is fine to have in the district article, but perhaps mentioning the museum in bold font on the article page might give interested travelers a better idea of what there is to DO in the city pertaining to the subsection at-hand (sometimes the names of museums/centers are pretty self-explanatory and thus maybe the word count can be reduced a bit). (WT-en) Zepppep 13:16, 23 November 2009 (EST)
 * I was a little worried that I was writing too much in the African-American History section at first, but as the guide has come along, I've grown pretty fond of it, especially as it provides a lot of context for many of the district articles. As far as I've been able to tell, Wikivoyage is the only travel guide to the city which so much as acknowledges the fact that the city is plurality black, and which covers black neighborhoods and African-American culture (and food!) in a serious way. We cover Bronzeville, Hyde Park, Chatham-South Shore, Rogers Park, the Far West Side, the Southwest Side, and the Far Southeast Side in depth, when no other guide even bothered to cover them—even Hyde Park! (Fodors & LP must be scrambling to cover Hyde Park now that Obama's been elected...) In a city where so much of the urban mythology, culture, music (!), and cuisine come squarely from African-American traditions, I think the section is useful, and represents part of what really makes our guide stand out. But of course, if you have recommendations on how to punch up the prose, that would be most welcome. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:50, 21 November 2009 (EST)

Home of the Blues?????
Well, Urban Blues perhaps, but the blues worked its way up to Chicago from the South so claiming Chicago as the home of the blues is pushing it a bit?(WT-en) Shep 15:29, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

 * It's certainly not the birthplace of the blues generally, but the electric blues (i.e., the Chicago blues) was born here, and was what popularized the music. There's more than one claim to the moniker, but for Chicago it's a commonplace motto. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:33, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Home isn't necessarily where you were born — it's where you live. With the largest annual blues festival in the world, the Blues Brothers, "Sweet Home Chicago", Buddy Guy, Muddy Waters, Chess Records, and the dozens of blues clubs covered in this guide (see Chicago for a start), this is definitely where the blues lives. It's just on tour everywhere else. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:55, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Illinois
I just noticed that this article never actually mentions that the city is in Illinois. It's in the breadcrumbs, but that's about it. Is that intentional? (WT-en) LtPowers 15:45, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

 * It's pretty explicit in the Learn and African-American History sections, but yeah, it would be good to have it mentioned directly in the beginning of the understand section (shouldn't be too hard to do). The "Chicago is in Illinois" bit disappeared when the intro was rewritten (since that "X is in Y" formula is terribly boring). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:32, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

 * Yeah, I actually stumbled onto it because I was trying to punch up the intro to Walt Disney World/Hollywood Studios and was hoping to find star articles that deviated from the traditional phrasing. =)   (WT-en) LtPowers 16:50, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

 * It wasn't intentional, although there has been a Chicago vs Rest of Illinois split throughout their mutual history, which probably influenced how the article was framed. Anyway, I like the way that Peter worked the state into 'Understand'. And kudos, Lt, on the effort to get Wikivoyage away from these horribly bland "X is a thing in Y, Z" intros. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:46, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

Expressways
Under the "By Car" segment it states "Chicagoans have a maddening habit of referring to some expressways by their names, not the numbers used..." Well, this is actually not a maddening habit for Chicagoans because they all know the names of their expressways and refer to them as such. Its not appropriate to say its "maddening" when its something the whole Chicago metropolitain region does and is very familiar with. A more appropriate statement would be, "Unlike many other cities, Chicagoans tend to refer to their expressways by their names instead of numbers. You would be wise to make yourself familiar with the name of the designated numbered expressway if you intend to travel by car during your stay". This way it doesn't make it seem like the entire region is doing something wrong when, in fact, they're not. —The preceding comment was added by 66.192.176.30 (talk • contribs).

 * The point is that it's maddening for non-Chicagolanders. Please see Project:Tone; lively writing is encouraged.  (WT-en) LtPowers 16:19, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

Okay. I read Wikivoyage:Tone and I get what you're saying. But just like in New York City, they tend to use the name as well... i.e. the Van Wyck, Brooklyn-Queens, Cross Bronx, etc. Some cities simply prefer names over numbers. Los Angeles, to a degree, will also use names: The Santa Monica Freeway, the Hollywood Freeway, the Pasadena Freeway, Long Beach Freeway, Pomona Freeway, etc. And in these cities, the names are also on the expressway signs, along with the number. But if this is the statement that will be used ("its maddening"), then it should be under the New York City article as well sense they do the same thing. This really appears to be a preference that the nation's three largest and most dominate cities do. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 66.192.176.30 (talk • contribs)

 * It would be better that we find the creativity to use original writing in each guide. I think Chicagoans are not an oversensitive bunch—we should be able to suffer this slight. And please sign your posts. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:51, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Does the Brooklyn-Queens not run between Brooklyn and Queens? Is the Hollywood Freeway not a means of getting to Hollywood? In Chicago, the Dan Ryan doesn't start in, go through, or end at anything called Dan Ryan, so it's not exactly the same thing. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:35, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

Your right. Chicagoans are not a sensitive bunch so it can be overlooked. But I must say to Gorilla Jones, it is actually the same thing. Bottom line, numbers aren't used, names are. Chicago calls many of its highways after people, but it also has directional highway names like Lake Shore Dr (which runs along the lake shore from north to south), and the Chicago Skyway (which carries Indianians into Chicago. This highway was built by the city of Chicago). And while New York uses mostly directional "names" (still not numbers, however), lets not forget New York has the Dr Martin Luther King Jr highway, the JFK Expressway, and its West Side Highway is alternately called the Joe DiMaggio Highway. So while one city mostly calls its expressways after people with a few named after destinations, and the other names them after destinations with a few named after people, both Chicago and New York have come to the same conclusion: They don't like calling them by numbers. But as I said above, it can be overlooked.

 * The JFK Expressway goes to JFK Airport, I don't think I've ever heard anyone (even the most rabid Yankees fan) use the West Side Highway's "official" name, and I'm not aware of any MLK Jr. Highway in NYC... so these may not be the best counterexamples to use. Additional names get tacked on to many a New York surface street, but are near-universally ignored and don't exclude the numbered name.  - (WT-en) Dguillaime 19:24, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

It goes to the JFK Airport but its named after John F Kennedy. —The preceding comment was added by 66.192.176.30 (talk • contribs).

 * OK...and what is the JFK Airport named after? Some other fellow with the initials J-F-K? Look, names in and of themselves aren't a problem — names that bear no relation to local geography are confusing. That's the issue. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:16, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Think Chicago or N'Yoik is bad? Go for a spin in Singapore, where the expressways are near-exclusively referred to as PIE, ECP, CTE, AYE, KJE, KPE, SLE, TPE and MCE — and most people don't even know what the abbreviations stand for!  Here's a typical road sign:  (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:55, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

Seems to me the entire debate was about cities using names instead of numbers for expressways; not a sub-discussion on what type of names are used. So in that regard, both New York and Chicago use names of people and/or directions for their expressways. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 66.192.176.30 (talk • contribs)

 * Please sign your posts --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:03, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

Movies
I'm moving this list to the Talk page — though some additions were good, a travel guide doesn't need an encyclopedic list, and some of these are barely associated with Chicago. (North by Northwest is New York, Rushmore, and a corn field a lot more than it's Chicago.) Fiddle with my choices as you see fit. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:09, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Other films that prominently feature Chicago include The Fugitive (and it's sequel U.S. Marshals), Road To Perdition, North By Northwest, While You Were Sleeping, Payback, Wicker Park, My Best Friend's Wedding, Mercury Rising, Red Dawn, Showdown In Little Tokyo, What Women Want, The Package, and the greatest Patrick Swayze hillbilly ninja v. Italian mob film of all time, Next of Kin.

title: Talk:Chicago/Archives 2008-09