text:
Talk:Manhattan/Chelsea

Propose splitting into two articles:
 * Chelsea including "West Chelsea" art galleries and the High Line
 * Garment District, 23rd-34th street, West side. Including the "flower district" (28th Street), sweat shops and any kind of textile or accessory at wholesale.
 * It seems to me since the article is still only a stub there is no point in having two stubs therefore I'd have to disagree with the proposal. -- (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 02:25, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

Chelsea Brewing Company
Why was that listing deleted without explanation? I have no vested interest either way, but I'd like to know the reason.

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:07, 20 February 2010 (EST)

 * Looks like that user has been making a lot of questionable edits lately, ranging from adding apparently legitimate listings to nonsense like this. Inas has apparently taken to just reverting all of this user's edits on sight.  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:11, 20 February 2010 (EST)

 * I understand. Thanks. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:23, 20 February 2010 (EST)

To Guide
This article is almost a Guide now. It mostly needs some info in "Connect." Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Garment District
So, in doing a little research, I've just found out that apparently what is widely considered the Garment District isn't even covered by this article. Wikipedia places it "between Fifth Avenue and Ninth Avenue, from 34th to 42nd Street", which seems to be backed up by other sources. Our current boundaries for this district don't extend beyond 34th Street, so calling this the "Garment District" feels pretty misleading.

Given this, I see two options: The first option is that we simply move any mention of the Garment District to the Theater District page and change the name of this page to Manhattan/Chelsea. The second option is that we re-draw the district boundaries to include the Garment District and move any listings to here.

Given that the area north of Madison Square Garden is pretty different from the area south of it, I'm compelled to go with option #1. In fact, it might be worth considering just jettisoning Madison Square Garden and its immediate vicinity into the Theater District page, since that's really where you start getting into the densest part of Midtown. From my research, no one seems to consider Madison Square Garden part of Chelsea, and just based on what I've seen of the area, it's not hard to see why. PerryPlanet (talk) 22:56, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I disagree with Wikipedia, in that there are a bunch of wholesale cloth stores in the 20s, both on and around Broadway (such as near 28th St.) and on side streets. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, to be fair, it's not just Wikipedia. The Garment District's own website seems to use the same boundaries. PerryPlanet (talk) 06:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So we can call this the wholesale jewelry, cloth, and flower district. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, you're right that Penn Station is in Midtown, but if we want to be consistent about that, we might make the boundary between Chelsea and Midtown 31st St. That would also put 32nd St. between 5th and 6th (Little Korea) in Midtown, which also makes sense. It's a bit arbitrary to use 31st St. as the dividing line, but any other street would be no less arbitrary, although 34th St. is a major 2-way thoroughfare. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Works for me. And extending Midtown down to 31st would put the Empire State Building technically in Midtown (it's listed there, it's just not technically within the boundaries as currently described), which seems obvious. So Madison Square Garden would go in the Theater District page, and Koreatown would go in the Midtown East page. PerryPlanet (talk) 19:17, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, move to Manhattan/Chelsea is completed. Gonna update the material to reflect the change. PerryPlanet (talk) 01:20, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your good work, Perry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Southern boundary of Chelsea
I'm not sure why Gansevoort St. is the southern boundary. I thought it was always considered that Chelsea started north of 14th St. To me, Gansevoort St. is in the West Village, and I would suggest reorienting the map and moving entries for the Whitney and anything else below 14th St. into Manhattan/Greenwich Village. But I'd love to hear from anyone on the basis for considering anyplace south of 14th St. to be in Chelsea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the Meatpacking District makes way more sense being paired with Chelsea than with Greenwich Village. Like Chelsea, it has a lot of former industrial buildings that have been converted into trendier uses, and the character of that area is much more like Chelsea than Greenwich Village. Plus, extending the southern boundary of this article to Gansevoort Street means you get the keep the entirety of the High Line in this district, which has become this area's main claim to fame. PerryPlanet (talk) 03:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I can understand your reasoning and won't make a Federal case out of this, but to this New Yorker, the boundary between the Village and Chelsea is not movable and hasn't moved, so this strikes me all wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:47, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I may not be a New Yorker, but I did get to explore this area on my last visit and I think the current layout makes way more sense. PerryPlanet (talk) 11:31, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Removal of static map
It's more easily readable, so why is it better to remove it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Restored. Does it need updating? If so, let's request an update. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:11, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Chelsea


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Chinatown

A call for help
This article needs a lot of work, and I don't have time to edit it further right now, so a lot of the things I wrote are placeholders until I look up some addresses and get some more names. But at least there's an article about Chinatown now! Please do whatever you can to help create an excellent guide to Chinatown. Thank you.

Michael 05:45, May 05 2006 (UTC)

Pho Tu Do
I was underwhelmed with their pho when I tried it probably 1 1/2 years ago. But of course, I won't delete the entry.

Michael 03:39, June 26, 2006 (UTC)

Little Italy
If we're going to include Little Italy, such as it is (there isn't much remaining of it), in this article, we need to decide what its boundaries are. Should this article include NoLiTa, as well? It might make sense to add NoLiTa here and subtract it from the Lower East Side article.

Michael 11:32, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

Lombardi's
Documentation of my edit appears in the last two paragraphs of the following article (if you can't access it easily from the link, it was the first Google result for "Lombardi's reopens"):

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/06/garden/off-the-menu.html?n=Top%2FReference%2FTimes%20Topics%2FSubjects%2FF%2FFood

Michael 02:58, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Restaurant Price Categories
Let's talk about them here. I'm familiar with these restaurants. Some of the categories are wrong, and many of the restaurants are placed in the wrong category. There are no "splurge" restaurants in Chinatown at all. One could make an argument for Oriental Garden, Nyonya, and possibly Dim Sum Go Go as "moderate," but DSGG is not expensive at lunchtime, though more than some other places.

Noodletown, Skyway, and the Shanghainese places are cheap, not close to mid-range. Cantoon Garden is under or around $20/person for stupendous banquets. That's not expensive enough to qualify as mid-range.

Please discuss. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:00, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

 * $20 sounds like a lot to me - but of course, what qualifies as "budget" is going to depend on your own personal experience. I used $10 as the dividing point between budget and mid-range and $20 as the dividing point between mid-range and splurge, based on other examples like this. But if you think they're in the wrong categories, feel free to move them - you obviously have more experience with these places, so I trust your judgment. Just keep us budget travelers in mind when doing so. ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 17:05, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

 * In New York, "Splurge" is - conservatively - over $60/person (I'd say over $75/person if not over $100/person). Up to $5/person is super cheap, $5-15 is quite inexpensive, $15-25 is (moderately, if you like) inexpensive, $25-60 (especially if you include alcohol) is moderate; $60-100 is moderately expensive; over $100 is expensive; over $200/person is very expensive (all prices inclusive of tax and ~20% tip). New York is, quite simply, an expensive city, though not close to devoid of good values in food, including at the low end. Chinatown is a neighborhood that is full of super cheap to low-end moderate restaurants only. I don't think it should have its own set of price categories that is entirely dissimilar to what we would reasonably use for the rest of Manhattan. Instead, we can add a "super cheap" category to the already low-end places - but then we run into the issue that you can easily have a dinner of noodle soup at a place like Great NY Noodletown for around $5 or you could choose to get more expensive dishes and pay around $20, so I'd continue to argue for merely "Inexpensive" and "Moderate" categories for Chinatown, with an approximate price or price range included in each entry, as much as possible. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:57, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

 * (We don't include alcohol in these prices—choice of wine/drink would introduce too great a range in price.) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:41, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

 * (OK, I get that. In Chinatown, that's really moot, but in places like Italian, French, and New American restaurants, it would make sense to include some remarks about the wine list within entries, even though I see the point in not including wine in the price range for the restaurant.) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:46, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Instead of creating new categories (I'd like to work with the Wiki template we already have), I actually would like to see a different set of price categories for Chinatown different from the rest of Manhattan. This is exactly what that little box is for - we could even lower the amounts dividing the budget, mid-range, and splurge categories, like maybe $5 between budget and mid-range and $15 between mid-range and splurge, to define that "super cheap" category. Since $20 is splurging for Chinatown, I think it makes perfect sense. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 12:37, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

 * $20 is not splurging for Manhattan's Chinatown. $20-25 is a reasonable price for a large dinner that includes some relatively more expensive items like lobster, king crab, yellow chives, or pea shoots. And as I said, there are plenty of restaurants like Great NY Noodletown, where it's easy to get a full meal of a dish on rice or a noodle soup for about $5 or a larger meal for closer to $20, so putting overly low price limits on restaurants will lead to misleading results.

 * If people really want to know in detail what the menus at every place look like, all they have to do is go to menupages.com or menupix.com, but inserting price ranges into each entry is going to be a lot more accurate and less misleading than deciding to call a place like Great NY Noodletown "moderate," because you can choose to spend more than $7 or so including tip for your dinner - if you want to. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:37, 11 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I'm confused. You yourself wrote "$25 is about the most you are likely to pay" on this guide. So how is $20-$25 not splurging for Chinatown? We're not creating price categories for all of Manhattan here, we're just looking at Chinatown. On your other point, there is no "one size fits all" price category; there will be plenty of restaurants that have some dishes in one category and some in another - the idea is to figure out which category the majority of those dishes fall under and place the listing accordingly. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 00:53, 12 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Because you can pay $5 or $25 in the same restaurant, so I consider what you propose to be overcategorization at low price categories, though perhaps you'll convince me with further discussion. I also distinguish between cheap noodle soups and amazing multi-course banquets for around $20/person, which is really cheap FOR A GREAT BANQUET (e.g., Cantoon Garden), as opposed to a meal "on rice," noodle soup, or plate of Soy Sauce Chicken. And I maintain that really isn't a splurge (though see my further discussion at the end). A splurge would be to special-order deluxe live seafood at Oriental Garden and top out at, who knows? $60? More? But that's off-menu.

 * If you want to judge based on the majority of the menu, Great NY Noodletown should be "Budget," in any case, because regardless of the actual count of dishes at different price points, an average meal there would probably be under $10/person (I believe a noodle soup plus a side of steamed Chinese vegetables with oyster sauce might amount to $11 or so with tip), although it's very possible to pay $20, if you so choose.

 * If you really want to make banquet restaurants "Moderate" because it's impossible to get any kind of multi-course banquet in New York for less than $10/person, I won't oppose you on that. It IS food of a different category than $5 for 4 dumplings, et al., so I can see the rationale for categorizing it differently. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:11, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I just consider your breakdown of the prices overcategorization since 1) we already have a nice, simple 3 rank system on Wikivoyage and 2) we're dealing with a place where $0-$25 (rather than say, $0-$100) is the range you're likely to pay. "Splurge" isn't a set amount - what "Splurge" entails will vary from place to place. Like you said, someone may choose to pay $20 at a "budget" place like NY Noodletown, but that goes into the price range in the listing - by placing the listing in budget, what we're saying is "if you're on a small budget, you can get a good, cheap meal here."

 * But I think we're complicating things by getting into banquets, because banquets are usually meant to be a lot of food for a lower price than to order a lot of dishes. So maybe a $20 banquet could go into "mid-range" or even "budget" (even if $20 is counted as splurge territory), if the amount of food you're getting for the price is proportional to the amount of food you would get for the price of a mid-range or budget restaurant. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 18:50, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I'm confused: Are you thinking of "banquet" as meaning "buffet"? It doesn't. A banquet is a bunch of dishes, made to order and shared by a sufficiently large group of people. You will eat a great deal more for a $20/person budget at a place like Cantoon Garden than you would for $7 at Great NY Noodletown, and it'll be more elaborate and give you a much greater variety of tastes, so there is indeed a value element, but you have the option of ordering a banquet set from the Chinese-language menu, a set of dishes ordered individually from the bilingual menu, or some combination, and all of those would be banquets shared by the table(s). Anyway, now that I see you're more concerned with a preponderance of lower-priced items than the fact that one can easily choose to pay closer to $20, I'm having much less trouble with your reasoning. I still think, though, that the only real "splurge" restaurant in Chinatown that's on the list so far is Oriental Garden, for dinner (not dim sum). I also think we should make "budget" up to at least $10, not $5. This is New York, where sales tax is almost 9% and tips are about 20%. (Or are we not including tips in figuring costs?) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:45, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Oh sorry, I am confusing banquet and buffet. *wacks head against table* Okay, let's clear this up: what should the dividing lines be between budget, mid-range, and splurge? You're suggesting $10 between budget and mid-range, which sounds fine to me, so what qualifies as "splurge" in Chinatown? (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 12:00, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

 * I think I'd say $25 or higher. In other words, compared to a cheap meal of noodle soup or something on rice (which is cheap), a banquet specialist that's around $20/person is moderate, but Oriental Garden (probably closer to $30; I haven't been there in a few years) is splurgy, and perhaps Nyonya is, though their price ceiling is much lower than Oriental Garden's. I'd tend to think that a place like Wing Shoon (I haven't checked whether they have an entry yet - I'll make up more entries at some point) wouldn't belong in a "splurge" category because a single person can easily have an inexpensive meal (or two) of their very good soy sauce chicken or get it for takeout, and based on my experience with their menu, I believe their banquets usually aren't particularly expensive. Is this making sense? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:55, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Sounds fine to me. Do you want to rearrange the listings accordingly? (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 11:04, 15 August 2009 (EDT)

 * Sure. I'll start moving things around and add more entries some time later. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:22, 19 August 2009 (EDT)

Eastern Boundary of Chinatown
I was in Chinatown again tonight, and was reflecting on the fact that the neighborhood is really much larger than we are acknowledging here. I would argue to redefine Chinatown's eastern boundary as a line extending from Pike Street and the East River to Allen St. and Delancey St., and I would include both sides of Allen St. as being in Chinatown. Why? Because it really is. The shops and restaurants are overwhelmingly Chinese, and those that aren't (such as the Roy Rogers on Canal St. near Christie) generally have names in Chinese characters on them along with English names. Anyway, there really isn't any question nowadays that Grand St. between Bowery and Allen (and especially between Bowery and Chrystie) is a central shopping street of Chinatown, or that "Little Fuzhou" on Eldridge St. between Division and Broome is a Chinatown street. A very similar argument could be made for Canal St. between Allen and Bowery - it's all shops with Chinese names and characters, and most of the people walking on the street are Chinese.

Chinatown is really not a geographic area defined for all time, but that neighborhood in lower Manhattan which is predominantly Chinese. We fudge that by including areas of NoLIta that are diverse and not (yet?) primarily Chinese but used to be northern Little Italy, when that neighborhood still existed as an Italian-American ghetto decades ago. But if we're covering Chinatown, we really should face the fact that Chinatown has expanded to the north and east. It's still expanding and may have to be redefined again in 10 years or so, but right now, there's still enough diversity further east than Allen St. that I think it's OK, as well as geographically neat, to make the new line I'm proposing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * I'm not familiar with the area, so I'll defer to your judgment. Makes sense to me. PerryPlanet (talk) 04:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * If a consensus agrees on this change, the maps for Chinatown and the Lower East Side will have to be edited (I don't know how to do that), and a bunch of listings plus one or two photos will need to be moved (I can do or help with that). Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * No prob, I can take care of the maps easily enough.
 * I just had a thought: you mentioned that we kinda fudge our definition of Chinatown by including NoLiTa, and the lead for this article claims that it's in some ways considered an eastern extension of SoHo. Would it make sense to lop off NoLiTa and move it to SoHo, or is it too important that it remain connected with Little Italy? PerryPlanet (talk) 04:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * I think we should probably leave it in this article because (a) it was historically part of Little Italy; (b) Houston St. is a neat northern boundary, and I don't know what else we could as handily make into a northern boundary. It really isn't clear exactly where Nolita starts (I would think it would have to start north of Kenmare or Spring, but tonight, I saw a shop calling itself "Nolita" something-or-other on a block filled with Chinese stores, I think on Elizabeth St. between Grand and Broome), and conversely, it isn't really clear where Chinatown ends. Plus, while Nolita is something like SoHo, it has a different quieter character, and the architecture is different, too. I'm almost tempted to rename the article "Chinatown/NoLIta," but that just feels too weird, and I don't want to put "Little Italy" in a slash because there just isn't much of it anymore, and it doesn't merit being oversold. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. Thinking on it a little more, it probably makes sense not to split up The Bowery more than we already have, so there's a side benefit. PerryPlanet (talk) 04:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, although I guess we would still split the Bowery for the 3 blocks between Delancey and Houston, as the boundary line between the Lower East Side and Nolita. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

 * I wonder, maybe we should consider including both sides of the Bowery (below Houston) in Chinatown. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with using a major thoroughfare as a dividing line, but in this case the Bowery seems to have such a strong identity it seems a shame to keep divvying it up. Right now it's split between three articles; even if we could get it down to two that seems like a better outcome.
 * Heh, at the rate we're cutting into the Lower East Side, at some point we may have to just merge it with another article. Maybe the East Village. But that's a whole other discussion. PerryPlanet (talk) 16:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd vote "No" on both. The Bowery really is the eastern boundary of NoLiTa, and the Lower East Side now has a different identity from the East Village. What the Lower East Side article needs a lot of is bar listings, but since I'm not a young person and don't frequent most of those bars, I'm not the person to choose which of the "popular with young people" bars to list. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought of a workable and reasonable alternative: Put both sides of Bowery between Delancey and Houston in the Lower East Side and consider Nolita to be west of the Bowery, and not to include the Bowery itself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's fine. That would still split the Bowery between three articles, so I don't think there would be much benefit to it. No need to make this more complicated. PerryPlanet (talk) 03:05, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Bowery is already split between 3 articles: Manhattan/Chinatown, Manhattan/Lower East Side and Manhattan/East Village. My proposal wouldn't change the number of articles; all it would do is make the split strictly uptown/downtown and not between the two sides of the avenue. I think that makes some sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No, that's my point, that it's already split between three articles, so I think the benefit would be negligible. Between splitting the section between Delancey and Houston between the two sides of the avenue or giving both sides to the LES, I don't really have a preference either way, because neither of those proposals really gets at what I was suggesting, which was to get the whole stretch of the Bowery below Houston into one article (specifically Chinatown). Really, at this point, we're only talking about moving a single hotel listing (The Bowery House). PerryPlanet (talk) 04:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As of now, Chinatown really doesn't extend to Houston St., though there are signs of it creeping north of Delancey St. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're misunderstanding me; I'm not saying Chinatown extends to Houston, nor was I ever implying as such. What I'm saying is, in our combined Chinatown/NoLiTa article, we could also encompass the entire stretch of Bowery south of Houston, rather than splitting it between this article and the Lower East Side article. Earlier when I said we could get the whole stretch below Houston in "Chinatown", I wasn't referring to the neighborhood, I was referring to this article. PerryPlanet (talk) 14:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. Yeah, you can do that if you like. I consider the Bowery more Lower East Side, but we're talking about only a single avenue, so go ahead and do that, if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we should go ahead and change the eastern boundary of Chinatown to Pike St./Allen St. up to Delancey, since no-one has objected (or had anything whatsoever to say, except us). Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Do whatever you feel like; you don't need to wait on my approval. PerryPlanet (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to edit a map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

[unident] Building on my rant over at Talk:Manhattan/Upper East Side, I'm reluctant to invest any more effort into any of the static maps at this point given that no one else shows any interest in taking care of them, and it seems like people are more interested in replacing them with dynamic maps anyway. Especially given how barely active I am around here these days, I'd rather invest effort into something that I can at least hope others will take ownership of than something that seems to be on the way out. PerryPlanet (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course I completely understand that. However, this map is quite a lot clearer than the Upper East Side one. I don't think we should change the boundaries of the neighborhood unless there's a map that reflects the new boundaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I strongly agree with the change proposed here; the current boundary and map are outdated. If our static maps aren't being maintained anymore, I think we should just replace this one (and the one on Lower East Side) with dynamic maps, and go ahead with the change. The only map that would need to be edited is the neighborhood map on Manhattan. – sumone10154 ( talk ) 01:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I slightly reluctantly agree with you that if no-one wants to edit the static map, we should replace it with a dynamic map, with the borders of Chinatown enlarged accordingly. I just hope the server the dynamic maps use becomes more stable and stays that way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Update: The static maps for this article and Manhattan/Lower East Side have been changed accordingly, thanks to User:Saqib. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

City Hall
When did City Hall get added to this guide? City Hall is not part of Chinatown; it's part of the Financial District. It's hard to give exact boundaries for a somewhat conceptual area, but I think Worth St. on the south and then St. James Place, Madison St. and Catherine St. to the river are probably reasonable boundaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:20, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

 * I looked at this article and was surprised all over again at this. City Hall should not be in this article. This article also used to have a beautiful static map, so it's a pity that it's gone but I guess it had needed an edit that no-one wanted to do at some point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I haven't changed my mind about this. Anyone want to discuss it, please? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * I have no strong opinion either way. It looks like part 1 of implementing your proposal, would be to edit the mapshapes to remove Civic Center from Chinatown and add it to FiDi. I know I've seen some non-WV guides put it into CTown, but FiDi does make more sense to me. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:48, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * I don't know how to do that. Is it easy to edit mapshapes? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

 * Once we have consensus, I can easily move the Wikidata ID for Civic Center from Chintown's template to FiDi's. If edits in OpenStreetMap (WD's source) were needed, I would be out of my depth. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No-one has objected in over 6 months, so I think it is safe to implement your proposal. Ground Zero (talk) 20:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Nelson Ricardo, would you like to do the move? I'll move the Civic Center content very soon. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:02, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I know you saw this, but for the "record", I have adjusted the articles' mapshape templates. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:22, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:30, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

More border questions
Taking a closer look at the dynamic map, I'm surprised by some of the boundaries on the north and east. Cutting Chinatown off at Grand St. on Eldridge is definitely not accurate; Delancey is a more reasonable dividing line. The thing is, though, the neighborhood is in flux, with some proliferation of upscale non-Asian restaurants and shops, and who knows what'll happen post-pandemic, so I'm not sure what we should really change, if anything. The static map had had Allen St. (both sides) up to Delancey in Chinatown. Dunno, we could leave things as is though they're just a bit off, as there will always be questions at the margins. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

 * The pandemic is at least for the time being over, and I still would absolutely call everything up to Delancey and east to Allen part of Chinatown. Can we please edit the map here and in the Lower East Side article to reflect that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The static map or the dynamic map? If it's the dynamic map on this page, I can try to help. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 10:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes, the dynamic map, because the beautiful static map that used to be on this page was deleted, as no-one wanted to maintain it anymore. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * and I presume the borders of the static map are correct? -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 23:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * If they are, just add to the end of the page. --  SHB2000  (t | c | m) 23:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I just looked carefully at the southern and western boundaries. I think those borders, starting from the East River, should be Catherine St. to Madison St., then Oliver St. and Worth St. The Brooklyn Bridge is definitely not part of Chinatown, nor is Duane St. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No worries! I'll try to adjust them. If you can, are you able to draw the boundaries on ? Click on the pentagon tool, draw the boundaries, then paste the code on the right into User:SHB2000/Manhattan Chinatown – I'll handle everything else from there. It's just a bit hard to work with a place I haven't been to. Otherwise, here's my second attempt. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 04:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This map looks good to me; thank you! Unfortunately, Manhattan/Lower East Side and Manhattan/Financial District will need to be adjusted, too, to match these boundaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ I've gone ahead and replaced the previous mapshape (which used Wikidata mapshapes). Are you able to draw the boundaries for the other two on geojson.io using the polygon tool (third option from the top, looks like a pentagon)? If/when you do use it. paste the result in my userspace and I'll handle both of them from there. It's just a tad hard to work around with districts in a city I'm not too familiar with. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 07:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Understood. I'm tiring, and I'll be out of town for several days but may be able to deal with this while I'm away. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, please do take your time – there's no rush and I'm more than happy to help you using this tool when you come back. -- SHB2000  (t | c | m) 08:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Updating
I just checked all the URLs in the "Eat" and "Drink" sections, updated where I could and deleted at least one listing for a defunct business. The next steps would be to update prices and possibly add additional restaurants. Stores should also be checked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Manhattan/Chinatown


text:
Talk:Manhattan/East Village

Can't edit
Every time I try to edit anything in this article today, I get an "internal error." Someone should find out what the problem is, because there's no good reason for it. Meanwhile, I can't do anything here.

 * Workaround (see Wikivoyage_talk:Local_spam_blacklist):
 * step 1) edit (but don't save) New_York_(city)/East_Village article
 * step 2) add gb\.com to Project:Local_spam_whitelist
 * step 3) save New_York_(city)/East_Village article
 * step 4) remove gb\.com from Project:Local_spam_whitelist

Hi! It doesn't look like it's an error. The url www.cbgb\.com is getting blocked by the blacklist. Please add cbgb\.com to the Project:Local_spam_whitelist with a comment on the discussion page and it should work fine! There's no need to remove the link later... HTH! (WT-en) Majnoona 20:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Majnoona, that's a great idea except for the fact that it's been tried before and didn't work. See the "Talk" page of the spam whitelist, linked above. So far, the workaround described above is the only effective way to edit this article without permanently deleting the link to CBGB's website or putting gb\.com permanently in the spam whitelist. What is gb\.com, anyway?

Michael 17:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Restaurants
To the user who recommends Gandhi: No offense, but I think it's not very good at all, nor do I think there's anything very unusual about its menu. However, I won't delete the entry purely based on my opinion, so I'm just noting an objection here. The best Indian restaurant on that block is almost definitely Banjara, on the corner of 6th and 1st, and the best Indian restaurant in the neighborhood, in my not-so-humble opinion, is Madras Cafe. Most of the rest of the Indian places around here upset my stomach.

Michael 02:49, 01 Sept 2007 (UTC)

See: Tompkins Square Park
It appears the commentary is a direct quote from an external sources (which I can not confirm because I can't find that info on the other site). But if it is a quote I believe that is against wikivoyage guidelines? (WT-en) Carson 18:47, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Restaurant listings
How would everyone feel about my deleting some listings of places that just aren't that good, like Gandhi, Menkui Tei, Setagaya, and adding better ones, like Banjara, Ippudo, and several other places? Do I have free rein to edit the list this way for quality? I'll leave places I don't like that many others do, like Veselka, Veniero's, and Di Roberti's. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Go for it! I think per Avoid negative reviews, you are well within your rights to do that. If you're leaving places that you don't like but lots of other people do, I think that neatly avoids any real issues of personal bias. PerryPlanet (talk) 19:23, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I'll get started. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Alamo
Very regrettably, I have concluded that since they have yet to return the Alamo to Astor Place, months after I watched them take it away, it is probably gone for good. Just in case they ever return it, here is the listing for it:

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:01, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm happy to report that the Alamo has been returned to Astor Place within the past few days. An updated entry was put back into the "See" section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to revert!
Just added a bar probably everyone thinks is lame. Looked like you had space for it on the map. The East Village is great, but I haven't been in years! Thanks again for your help. --ButteBag (talk) 02:53, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Otto's Shrunken Head - no, that's a bar that should be listed. It's fun, and as you say, it's also a performance space. I like that bar. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

More restaurants/bars
I post this mostly as a "to do" list for myself, but if anyone wants to post these, great!

Restaurants:

B&H (I can't believe that isn't already there!)

Szechuan Mountain House (in the former Grand Sichuan St Marks space, always a long wait for dinner, no reservations)

Oh! Taisho (Yakitori Taisho's sister restaurant a few doors down, equally good)

Bars:

Sophie's and Josie's (sister bars) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

 * I added these restaurants. The bars still need to be added. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:09, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

 * Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I note the addition of Sundaes and Cones. I think it's fine to include, but Odd Fellows is better, though different. E. 4 St. between 2nd and Bowery. It should be added. In addition, I notice that Il Laboratorio del Gelato is not listed in Manhattan/Lower East Side. That's their flagship location, it's great, and it needs to be added. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Zabb Elee has a new name. I don't know anyone who's visited the new place and I have no idea whether it's under new management or has a new cook, but the URL in this listing is dead:

 * Btw, the new restaurant there also closed, and the space has been vacant for a while. My neighbors and I have concluded that the East Village location of Moishe's is gone, but I'm moving the listing here in case we turn out to be wrong:
 * Btw, the new restaurant there also closed, and the space has been vacant for a while. My neighbors and I have concluded that the East Village location of Moishe's is gone, but I'm moving the listing here in case we turn out to be wrong:

 * Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:28, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

 * I need to add Mala Project, if no-one beats me to it. Their dry pots are very good. Casa Adela also needs to be listed. I'd list Jules Bistro and Lavagna, too, if I had eaten at either recently enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/East Village


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Gramercy Flatiron

How does Murray Hill (aka Curry Hill) fit into this super-neighorhood? I suppose we should be listing Curry Hill restaurants, too. I wonder if this article should be broken up into two more specific articles about Gramercy/Flatiron and Murray Hill? Michael 08:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Dynamic Map
Given the high number of geotags, there should probably be a dynamic map - where should it be placed in the article? Hobbitschuster (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

 * No article should ever have both a static and a dynamic map. If the static map is horrendously outdated, it should be replaced with a dynamic one. If not, status quo. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:30, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know about that, but it seems to me a high number of geotags makes for a less readable dynamic map. Powers (talk) 21:53, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Let's discuss this further. You can see both maps here. They show different boundaries. I'm going to revert to the static map, for now, for that reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 08:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Current - daylight snippet of the Flatiron Building. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Prefer the original. --ButteBag (talk) 23:18, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Gramercy Flatiron


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Greenwich Village

The places currently listed under "See" and "Do" that are east of Broadway belong under "East Village." I am moving them there.

Michael 23:57, 20 Apr 2006 (UTC)

"It is important to note that the neighborhood to the West of Greenwich Village is not considered part of the Village itself, and is thus often called the West Village to differentiate itself from its eastern neighbor."

Huh? It's the "East Village" that is not part of Greenwich Village. "West Village" is synonymous with "Greenwich Village," as far as this native and essentially life-long Manhattanite is concerned. Unless someone can back up the quoted assertion, I will come back in a few days and delete it, perhaps replacing it with a remark that Greenwich Village is called the "West Village" to distinguish it from the "East Village."

Michael 06:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I looked at some articles in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Village%2C_Manhattan) and discovered that at least some people consider "West Village" to refer only to that section of the Village that's west of 6th Av., but I deleted the claim that the "West Village" is not part of the Village. Historically and in the minds of this New Yorker and every other New Yorker I know, the West Village is the Village.

Michael 23:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Washington Square Park is "the center of social life" for most West Village folks? That's news to me. I suppose some may be NYU students, but most of the people I see there appear to be tourists or day-trippers from other neighborhoods.--(WT-en) Beenthere 13:24, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Walking tours listing
Per tour, walking tour listings are usually reverted when they are posted, for example, in the Hanoi, Sofia, and Riga guides. Why is this walking tour an exception? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:09, 28 May 2012 (EDT)

Depicting the beauty of the Village
I feel like the lineup of images in this article really doesn't accurately portray the beauty of the Village, especially the side streets. Commons is not making it easy to find the best photos to remedy that, as the Featured and Valued images are all of people and the Quality image, bizarrely, is of Dresden. So whomever takes on this project needs to slog through the large number of photos, but it's an important job, because the Village is charming and I really couldn't tell that adequately from the images in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

 * I added photos of the Jefferson Market Courthouse and Northern Dispensary, but what I really want are more views of beautiful side streets. I feel like we should be able to find a more beautiful photo than the one captioned "Groceries and Eateries can be found on almost every street of Greenwich Village", and I'm not sure we can't do better than the 2007 view of an unidentified street in the Village. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Restaurants to add
Old Tbilisi Garden is one that comes to mind - very good Georgian food, mid-priced. Rasa is probably worth listing, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Why two maps?
This is the second example I'm seeing for Manhattan. I disapprove of this waste of space. If the static map is clear, leave it well enough alone. If listings on it need to be changed, request that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:21, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

 * So the static map was removed. I don't think this case is as clear (at least at a glance) as Chelsea, but the static map is at least somewhat better, partly because it shows a little more just outside the Village, such as Union Square and some subway stops on the 6 train. I suppose the dynamic map's shape could be tweaked a bit, but why is it clear the static map was the one to go? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:52, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

 * I've restored the static map for now. If it needs any updating, let's request an update. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Going case by case — I think this is quite a good static map. However, I've expanded it a little so you can see the text more clearly. --Comment by Selfie City  ( talk | contributions ) 02:23, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

 * I approve of that, any time you feel it's helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:08, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Stonewall Inn 1969.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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title: Talk:Manhattan/Greenwich Village


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Harlem and Upper Manhattan

Merging
There exists a New York (city)/Manhattan/Harlem which needs to be merged with this. --(WT-en) Ravikiran 20:25, 27 February 2006 (EST)

 * You're right. I can take some stuff out of that article and cut, paste, and edit it as appropriate, but how does one actually merge articles in such a way that the other topic is deleted after the merge? There shouldn't be two competing articles about the same place. -Michael 00:28, 28 Apr 2006 (UTC)

 * Once you're done with that, all you need to put a redirect from that page to this. Thanks for taking up this task. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 02:24, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

 * That wasn't hard. If I made any mistake, please feel free to correct my work at your leisure. -Michael 05:15, 01 May 2006 (UTC)

Recommending
Next question: Should we recommend or mention any places to sleep? There is the Harlem Y, for example, but I am not sure whether it would be unpleasant to stay in a place that has "a Transitional Housing program that provides social services to meet the needs of the residents who are living in transition until placed in supportive or permanent housing." That sounds a bit like the Y I once stayed at in Springfield, Mass. The people I encountered were all friendly, but the experience was a bit "interesting." I think that it would be best if someone who is actually personally familiar with the Harlem Y or other places to stay would edit that section. -Michael 05:46, 01 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, should the Morris-Jumel Mansion be here or in New York (city)/Washington Heights or both? -Michael 05:48, 01 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Hey thanks a ton once again. Yes indeed we should mention any places that a traveller might sleep in, unless they are both bad and obscure. If they are bad but well-known, then it is better to mention them as a place to avoid. As to your second question, I think that someone who actually knows the place would be better placed to answer it. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 08:39, 1 May 2006 (EDT)

 * I've walked past the Morris-Jumel Mansion. I think the mansion has traditionally been considered to be in Harlem, but if we're considering 155 St. the boundary line between Harlem and Washington Heights... -Michael 06:45, 03 May 2006 (UTC)

Descriptions needed
There are several restaurants with descriptions like "Anglo-Caribbean.". With no real description, price range, or website, that's rather useless. I'm inclined to remove them, but want to seek other opinions. The drink section is similarly useless. Presumably a traveler would simply wander the streets to find places instead of using description-less list. Thoughts? --(WT-en) Orcrist 12:54, 7 January 2012 (EST)
 * With an address and some minimal description of the cuisine, I'd say that's just enough to keep; it's not like the Eat and Drink sections are overflowing yet. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:13, 8 January 2012 (EST)

Closed listings

Common wisdom is that this will reopen, but no news on a date. --Peter Talk 04:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Lenox Lounge is slated to reopen in summer 2013 at a new location. If it does (I'm worried by a lawsuit filed by the former landlord at the owner stripping the interior and making off with all the decor!), it should be re-added to the article. --Peter Talk 23:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Maps
These maps are unreadable. What's the solution for that problem? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said on the Upper West Side talk page, I suppose we could replace them with a dynamic map. The shape of the area really doesn't lend itself to a map you can easily read in-text. PerryPlanet (talk) 18:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * How would a dynamic map improve things? LtPowers (talk) 21:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Morningside Park
That park is beautiful, a wonderful place to visit. I will post an entry for it unless someone would like to help out by beating me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Black culture/history
For being the global capitol of Black culture, I think this article is lack.ing on sites/information on the Black nationalist movement. I've improved a few, would appreciate input from local New Yorkers —The preceding comment was added by Magedq (talk • contribs)

 * Much appreciated! Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:48, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Western boundary of Harlem
I wanted to add an entry on Morningside Park in this article, but I see that the boundaries of the Upper West Side have been extended all the way to 8th Av. (Frederick Douglass Blvd.) to 125th St. As someone who grew up on W. 97th St., I can tell everyone that all of us knew - not thought, knew - that above 110th St., Harlem began east of Morningside Drive, and Morningside Park was a no-go area for Upper West Siders (in fact, the most dangerous spot in Manhattan and, I think, the entire city at some point in the 70s). I think the static maps in this article and Manhattan/Upper West Side should be changed to make the boundaries of the Upper West Side consist of 110th St. from Central Park West to Morningside Drive, then Morningside Drive, and then, north of 122nd St., Amsterdam Av. (with both sides of the avenue within the Upper West Side). I think the boundaries get fuzzy north of 122nd St., but I don't see a good alternative, and I think that Morningside Av. is very straightforwardly part of Harlem.

Once these steps are taken, I would like to move the entry on Morningside Park to this article, edit it with a link to its front page on the New York City Parks website, and with any luck, add a good photo of that beautiful park, too.

What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:17, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Knowing nothing but what you've written above, it occurs to me that if the Park is no longer a no-go area for UWSers, maybe that's why it's no longer considered part of Harlem? Powers (talk) 18:15, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Could be. However, I would maintain that while the park itself could be considered part of either the Upper West Side (specifically, the Columbia area) and/or Harlem, everything east of the park should be considered part of Harlem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

 * By the way, in a purely geographic sense, I'd make the point that Morningside Park is on top of a hill on the extreme west and then slopes steeply down to a valley. The valley is in Harlem and the top of the hill is Morningside Heights, which we in the upper West 90s considered part of the Upper West Side (some people living further downtown, such as in the West 60s might disagree). Similarly, St. Nicholas Park marks the boundary between West Harlem (at the top of the hill, which is also called Hamilton Heights) and Central Harlem (in the valley below). I would award both parks to Central Harlem, but at the very least, I think it's very sound as well as, I think, traditional, to consider them border zones for Central Harlem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

 * I see that the dynamic map follows the boundaries I consider correct, but the static map does not. What should we do about that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, we don't have many active users who can edit static maps with is the only active user who knows how to edit a static map. Ypsilon also knows how to, but they're inactive except in updating Discover. I probably need to learn how to make one, but the instructions in How to draw static maps is not very helpful. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we will probably have to remove the static maps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's why I'm not a huge fan of static maps. They can go out-of-date easily, and they are hard to update. At other times, you could have an an arbitrary region map. For now, I agree that it's best to remove the static map. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:47, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I generally prefer static maps, but only when they're accurate. Dynamic maps of Manhattan are problematic because uptown and downtown aren't straight up and straight down. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I could, however, I'd need to be clear on the correct boundaries first. The dynamic map is the one with the correct boundaries? And the only issue with these boundaries is in the southwestern area of the district? If those details are clear, it shouldn't be too difficult to make the adjustments, though I should be clear that I'm not experienced in static maps of cities. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 14:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Dated text?
I just removed a reference to a "planned" Marriott hotel whose construction was cancelled in 2006. I haven't been to West Harlem since some time before the pandemic, but is this true anymore?

The entire west side of Harlem is a surprising mix of rundown streets with car repair garages, stately single-family town houses, and boarded-up buildings.

I think most if not all of the car repair garages are gone and replaced by the rapid encroachment of new Columbia educational, office and housing buildings, and I doubt there's an appreciable number of boarded-up buildings now. Can someone update? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:12, 17 January 2022 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Lower East Side

Cafe Lika closed?
I can't find a listing for Cafe Lika in either the Yellow Pages (superpages.com) or menupages.com. Can someone please find out if it has closed and if so, delete the listing accordingly?

Michael 07:15, May 2 2006 (UTC)

Banner
That banner is of a scene that's too far downtown. The Brooklyn Bridge is not on the Lower East Side. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:42, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed. Jjtkk (talk) 09:53, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Your banner captures a lot of the feel of the neighborhood. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

To Guide
I think the main thing preventing this from being a Guide now is the lack of info in "Connect," though a neighborhood with this large a bar scene really should have more bar listings. Ikan Kekek (talk)

Eastern Boundary of Chinatown
Please see the discussion at Talk:Manhattan/Chinatown. It's relevant to this article because if my proposal is accepted, it would take a bite out of the southwestern part of the Lower East Side and give it to Chinatown. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Bar listings for Manhattan/Lower East Side
Hi, everyone. I don't know if this is really a request for comment, so I wasn't sure about putting anything up on Requests for comment but thought I'd post here to urge anyone who knows more about bars on the Lower East Side of Manhattan to post listings in Manhattan/Lower East Side. I posted a couple, but I'm really not the demographic most bars south of Houston are now catering to - a loud, young (20s) crowd (and I mean crowd) of out-of-towners. But they come here in droves, and since that's now mostly what the Lower East Side is about, we need to put in a bunch more bar and also restaurant listings. So if any of you liked anyplace, please help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Just a quick note to myself to add Wassail, the cider bar, and that bar with a lot of good beers on tap and even more for sale from their refrigerators. But for everyone else: Please add your favorite bar, even if older people like me would consider it, to use local parlance, "douchey". I never go to Piano's anymore, for instance, but (and because) they're super-popular with the young set. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Max Fish should also be listed. Someone should list Piano's, because there is always a slew of young people lined up outside, but it won't be me. There's also that good brewpub on Orchard or Ludlow. I need to find the name. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:29, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

More restaurants
The restaurant listings are pitiful. Meatball Shop should have been added a long time ago. There's also a very good little Sri Lankan place; I'll check the name. And how in the world did I not list Cafe Katja already? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:27, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Masalawala should be added - it's great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

 * Russ & Daughter's should be added to "Buy" and their restaurant should be added. I never go to either because they're expensive, but they're well-known and among the few remaining Jewish "appetizing" stores in Manhattan. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:26, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Why two maps?
Redundant and a poor use of space. No? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * By the way, I'd keep the static map, to which edits could be suggested. It's simply a better, clearer map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Lower East Side


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Financial District

I am high school student and i would like to know Why the Holocaust Museum in New York City is a good  hihg school trip to go on.

Title
Based on Project:Naming_conventions, the name of this article should be Manhattan/Lower, not Manhattan/Lower Manhattan. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:00, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

 * Point taken. But we've been moving away from that in the past year, opting for names that match what people actually call them (which seems like it conflicts with that rule in many cases—no one says, hey, lets go to Lower; Lower Manhattan is the most common name. (Los_Angeles/East seems to me clearly inferior to Los_Angeles/Eastside.) I'd like to see discussion here before changing the name, but in any rate I'll start a discussion at Project:Naming conventions. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:09, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

 * "Lower Manhattan" is not a common name in New York parlance, in my experience. We talk about Downtown Manhattan, the Financial District, the area around City Hall, and The Battery. I don't object to the term, but I consider it mostly a written, not a spoken term. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:24, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Ground Zero
Do we have some evidence for the claim that New Yorkers don't call the WTC site "Ground Zero"? They certainly did in the period after the attacks, so while it's plausible that that usage has fallen out of favor, I wonder if it's really done so to such an extent that it needs mentioning. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:51, 12 September 2011 (EDT)

 * Mainly I was reiterating what had already been on this page for months (maybe even years) prior to my edits yesterday. At first I removed that statement, but then I saw this article today, so I thought I might put it back in. But I have no strong opinions one way or another on this matter. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 16:45, 12 September 2011 (EDT)

 * This New Yorker doesn't know any New Yorkers who normally say "Ground Zero." It's visitors from outside the city who seem to always use the term, and most of us hate it. Anecdotal, but there's some evidence for you. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:13, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Rename to Financial District?
In my experience -- and according to Wikidata and Wikipedia -- "Lower Manhattan" is synonymous with "Downtown Manhattan", whereas we use it to refer to a subdistrict of Downtown Manhattan. (Downtown Manhattan being the lower 'third', distinct from Midtown and Uptown.) The southern tip of Downtown is more often called the Financial District, I think. The de.voy article on the same area is so titled, and I think we should change to match. LtPowers (talk) 14:02, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Makes sense to me. PerryPlanet (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Not only do we New Yorkers call the area the Financial District, but that name is also more descriptive of the nature of the area. I strongly support your proposal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Good enough. Move is complete.  I am waiting to see if Wikidata updates automatically before retargeting the old title redirect to the Manhattan article.  LtPowers (talk) 00:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Maps
This neighborhood has a beautiful static map. Do we need the dynamic map? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

 * I notice there's a discrepancy. On what basis does the Financial District not begin south of Chambers St.? Note Financial District, Manhattan, by the way. I think someone made an error that should be corrected. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, because of the discrepancy, I think we have to remove the static map. Does anyone disagree? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, if there are inaccuracies, please remove it. I know some people disagree, but I find dynamic maps superior and easier to update when needed. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Financial District


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Midtown East

Untitled
M&M'S World

I have moved the obviously promotional language about this place here (see below). As a New Yorker, I have never heard of this place and, based on the description, it sounds like it may be nothing more than a souvenir shop, one of many devoted to different brands in this city. If anyone believes this is in fact an interesting or significant attraction, please feel free to savagely edit the text below for a non-promotional tone:

 *  The world’s most beloved candy and candy characters now have a new home at the brand new Times Square destination, M&M’S WORLD® NEW YORK. Joining Las Vegas and Orlando as the only stores in the world dedicated to M&M’S® and M&M’S® branded items, the 25,000 square foot retail-entertainment store boasts three stories of interactive attractions and over 4,000 one-of-a-kind gifts and souvenirs, including apparel, household goods, jewelry, plush toys, specialty dispensers, and a collector’s gallery of products available only in New York. M&M'S® lovers can use an interactive “color mood analyzer” to determine which M&M’S® color best suits their current mood, as well as view an actual No.38 Ford Fusion NASCAR®. Visitors can also get a taste of the world’s largest display of plain and peanut M&M’S® in 22 different colors.

Michael 23 December, 2006, 13:55 (UTC)

I have been to thye Flatotel and did'nt think it was that great. 66.0.47.5 18:58, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Empire State Building
Anyone notice that the ESB is not technically within the boundaries of this district (since it supposedly ends at 34th Street)? (WT-en) LtPowers 16:04, 30 April 2012 (EDT)

 * Heh, I was just coming here to note the ESB's downgrade. Anyway, I noticed that myself when I was making the map...still, I wouldn't think of moving it - the ESB is very much part of Midtown and defines the Midtown skyline. Besides, it's only just outside the district as we've defined it. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 17:31, 30 April 2012 (EDT)

 * I totally agree it belongs in Midtown. Was there a compelling reason for drawing the boundary at 34th Street?  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:02, 1 May 2012 (EDT)

 * I have no idea. Looking back at the discussion over districts, it seems like 34th was suggested as the border and it was just adopted from there on. I'm not that familiar with Manhattan, but I suppose it's a prominent enough street that it just seemed like the natural choice for a dividing line. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 11:10, 1 May 2012 (EDT)

Buy listings
If anyone wants to spend some time doing a valuable task, the "Buy" listings aren't close to adequate for a neighborhood with so many prominent department and other stores of all sorts. I think that there is a long way to go before this article can be given Guide status. What I'd like to see is a long, annotated list of prominent stores that's subdivided into different categories, such as "Jewelry, clothing and accessories"; "Perfume"; "Sporting goods"; "Food," which would cover food to take out only, such as the Japanese pastry shop that I believe is still in Rockefeller Center and also La Maison du Chocolat; "Electronics" (which is where the Apple store would go, if it's below 59th St., which I believe it is); "Miscellaneous" - or something like that. But first, let's get more stores listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Rename to Midtown East?
Most New Yorkers would think of the area around Times Square, Penn Station and the Theater District as part of Midtown. Maybe we should rename this article to Manhattan/Midtown East? – sumone10154 ( talk ) 01:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

 * I don't think there's any New Yorker who doesn't think of the western part of Midtown as Midtown. I agree with your suggestion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:26, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Any further comments or demurrals from anyone? I'm not too comfortable acting on a consensus of two. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:04, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

 * It certainly seems reasonable; it's confusing to have "Midtown" be both a grouping of districts and a single neighborhood within that grouping. I didn't comment before because I didn't have any objection. Powers (talk) 12:42, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

 * No objections here; makes sense to me. PerryPlanet (talk) 13:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Done. Thanks, everyone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Policy on listing a hotel that is opening soon
I was wondering what the policy is for listing hotels that are opening soon. Would the community prefer the listing only be added after people can stay in the rooms or would the fact they are taking reservations for when they do open be enough to say they are open? VerbInteractive (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I think it's probably best to wait till it's open, but let's see what others think. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

 * As this seems to be a global issue, it might best be discussed in the pub? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I usually create a full listing when the hotel starts taking reservations, but I'm usually working on Walt Disney World resort hotels, about which there's a lot to say even before they start taking reservations. Powers (talk) 01:57, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I started the conversation in the Pub, let's see what the rest of the community says.VerbInteractive (talk) 13:11, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

 * From what I can gather from the pub conversation, because they are accepting reservations they can be considered open, the big concern seems to be Touting. I have listed the hotel, Baccarat, the first night people will be sleeping n the Hotel is March 9th, but they have been accepting reservations for a while now. Please review my posting and let me know if anyone sees any issues. VerbInteractive (talk) 18:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I tweaked the "The hotel is known..." part; obviously our main concern is that this place isn't well-known enough to have developed a reputation. But that's a easy fix. :)
 * Also, as an administrator, can I say how nice it is to see a hotel representative do their due diligence per Wikivoyage rules? My thanks are in order for checking in with our community to get clarification on this gray area of our rules. PerryPlanet (talk) 20:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the tweak, your edit makes perfect sense. I guess something along the lines of the Brand Knows would have made more sense from our end, but I see no reason to change how you have edited it. VerbInteractive (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Dynamic map problem
The dynamic map defines the neighborhood incorrectly. It cuts the neighborhood off at Madison Ave south of 42nd St and also excludes Koreatown and the Empire State Building. Can someone make the dynamic map show the same area as the static map? I think the alternative is to delete the dynamic map as confusing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If you know the name of that neighbourhood, and can find the wikidata code for it, it is easy to add it to the dynamic map. Ground Zero (talk) 06:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Wikidata evidently treats the neighborhood different from us, and we can't let them dictate how we choose to define districts in the interests of travelers. But seriously, who heard of Midtown East not extending to 5th Avenue or including the Empire State Building? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If I may suggest, have you considered using geojson.io to create the mapmask? Zoom in to the area that you want to draw an outline of, use the polygon tool on the right (third from the top/bottom), and once you're happy, hit the enter button. Copy the .json code and paste it on https://mapmask-geojson-converter.renek.cc/ – it will then generate a mapmask for you, which you can paste on this article. Feel free to ask me on my talk if you need any assistance. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 09:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not likely to try to learn how to do that, quite honestly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, but I wouldn't remove the dynamic map just for that, purely because I find the static map less convenient for my liking. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 09:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's different enough to be confusing. How much time does the task you're suggesting take? I already really spend too much time doing things that don't help me earn a living, as it is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * On average, it would take me about 10 minutes on average for a city district (in rare cases, such as Canberra/Airport and East, 25 minutes), provided that I already know the area. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, an alternative would be to use the Wikipedia definition for the sake of getting the map to work, and note the deficiency in the relevant articles. It's a second-best solution, but would address the problem without forcing you learn new things. (I, also, know when I've reached my limit of what I am willing to spend time and energy on when it comes to coding stuff.) Ground Zero (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

 * I'd be willing to create a quick screen recording on how to do this, if it helps. Unlike some other "coding stuff", the learning curve to creating mapmasks is very low (but then I may be inherently biased as I'm an ex-computing studies student). -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 11:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Midtown East


text:
Talk:Manhattan/SoHo

We need to watch this article for weird promotional spam. "Casa Bella" does not seem to be a hotel, and "NYC Apartment Hotel" is clearly not a proper listing of any kind. The web links went to weird places. 68.161.139.169 23:37, 28 December 2008 (EST)

Soho or SoHo?
Shouldn't this be moved to Manhattan/SoHo? We already have Manhattan/TriBeCa, the article for which isn't titled Manhattan/Tribeca. (WT-en) Eco84 11:57, 28 January 2010 (EST)
 * Looks that way. That's how Wikipedia titles it (wikipedia:Soho is in London, wikipedia:SoHo is in NYC).  (WT-en) LtPowers 13:13, 28 January 2010 (EST)
 * Agreed, I'll move it. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 19:58, 28 January 2010 (EST)

Which map?
You can see the static and dynamic maps here. I'm not sure on this one, but the static map seems more detailed, so I'd probably want to revert to it. Is there a strong reason not to? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/SoHo


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Theater District

Mid-Range Hotels?
Are $400/night rooms "mid-range," even in the Theater District? If so, what's a "splurge"? I find this especially odd, seeing that restaurants where you can get a meal for as little as $10 are listed as "Mid-Range," too. I would think of Grand Sichuan and probably Ariana, too, as "budget" restaurants, which in New York essentially means anything around $25 for dinner or less. $5 for dinner is another category: Really cheap. Mid-range for dinner to me would be in the $40s and $50s per person.

Michael 06:52, May 06 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you're definately correct. $400 a night is a splurge. NYC is an expensive city, but it is possible to reserve rooms between $100 - $200 and I would consider that Mid-range, especially for NYC. Go ahead and change that. Also, Michael do you have an account? If you plan on contributing to Wikivoyage often consider getting an account and all you have to do to sign your name is place four of these ~ after your message. - (WT-en) Sapphire 03:01, 6 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I moved 2 of the hotels to splurge. I kept the HGI as mid-range, because it's generally less expensive than some of the mid-range places.  I put the Carnegie Deli and Vice Versa as mid-range.  As for the Carnegie Deli, any place that sells $20 sandwiches doesn't seem "budget" to me -- you can definitely do cheaper in that neighborhood.  At Vice Versa, a meal for two (w/o wine) came to $75, which again doesn't qualify as budget.  The $10 items are available for the penny-pincher, but I think the category should be based on the typical meal, not the low end of the range.  —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Jonboy (talk • contribs)
 * The typical meal cost at Grand Sichuan is $20-25 for lunch or dinner. I consider that cheap, especially given the quality and quantity of the food.

Michael 02:22, Nov 06, 2006 (EDT)

Removed listings
The URL in this hotel listing is broken, and a Google search isn't turning up much. I'm not sure it is still in business:
 * Complimentary morning newspaper and continental breakfast. (WT-en) Eco84 23:47, 6 February 2010 (EST)

This one is "temporarily" shut down. I guess we'll see how temporary that is: (WT-en) Eco84 12:27, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Both single-sex and co-ed dorms available. Linens provided, towels available for a fee for dorm guests or complimentary for guests staying in private rooms. Free wifi or $2 for 20 minutes use of internet kiosks. Luggage storage and safety deposit box available, but there are no private lockers in the dorms. Kitchen and coin laundry available. 24 hour reception, no curfew. Maximum stay is 21 days.

Guide Status?
I think this article should be upgraded to guide status. (WT-en) Sumone10154 17:35, 17 January 2011 (EST)
 * It's close, but I would like to see some overview paragraphs for "See", "Do", "Buy", "Drink", and "Sleep". (WT-en) LtPowers 09:35, 18 January 2011 (EST)
 * Is it mandatory for sections to have overview paragraphs to become guide status? I noticed several other guide articles that are missing alot of them (such as Manhattan/East Village and San Francisco/The Avenues. (WT-en) Sumone10154 13:13, 18 January 2011 (EST)
 * No, I don't think it's mandatory, but it's something I'd like to see versus a plain list, especially for "See" and "Do". (WT-en) LtPowers 15:24, 18 January 2011 (EST)
 * I still think this deserves to be a guide. Can anyone else comment? (WT-en) Sumone10154 15:35, 20 January 2011 (EST)
 * I'll have to demur. The most important component of guide status is completeness. The Theater District is a big section of the most dense and wealthy urban area in the country, and this article doesn't have a single restaurant in the splurge category! While this is not the part of the city I am most familiar with, my strong hunch is that the eat and drink sections (and likely buy as well) are very underdeveloped. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:26, 22 January 2011 (EST)

Am I missing something here, or is there only one Broadway theater listed? LtPowers (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Price ranges for restaurants
What price ranges should we consider to be "Budget", "Mid-range" and "Splurge" in the Theater District? I think Wondee is budget, but I'd like to know because I want to add a few more places, and I consider Lard Ubol to be budget, Yakitori Totto to be mid-range and Yakitori Tori Shin to be splurge. I'll try to get the name of the excellent Sichuan (?) noodle place in the low 50s on 9th, too, which is definitely a budget place.

I would suggest that in Midtown (including the Theater District), up to $25 for a meal is budget, $25-75 is mid-range and above $75 is splurge. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:17, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

The map is wrong
As every New Yorker knows, Midtown goes up to 59 St. only. Can we please eliminate the extra area north of Columbus Circle? How do we do it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:01, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

 * That is, the dynamic map is wrong. Shall we delete the dynamic map or fix it? Those are IMO the two choices. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:02, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I prefer to not lose the dynamic map, but beyond the Columbus problem, a huge chunk of MIdtown West is in gray. I've hidden the mapshape template for the time being. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Theater District


text:
Talk:Manhattan/Upper East Side

Museum of the City of New York is really in East Harlem, and there is an entry for it in the Harlem page. Perhaps it should be excluded from this page. -- Michael 11:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio
Copyvio in the opening of this topic? It seems the same as the writing in this New York Magazine article: http://nymag.com/realestate/articles/neighborhoods/uppereast.htm 66.108.234.143 16:49, 22 February 2008 (EST)

 * It is indeed—that article predates this one, so this one must be the copyvio. Thanks for catching that! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:33, 22 February 2008 (EST)

Maps
There are two maps on this page: A static map that really still isn't too visible and a dynamic map which is excellent. Who objects to removing the static map from this page, on the basis that we shouldn't have two types of maps of the same neighborhood and the map we use should be the one that most benefits the traveler, not one that an editor prefers for some other reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The static map is still better for the traveler because it's oriented along the correct axis instead of north-south. Powers (talk) 18:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And you can't read it. Serving the traveler means using maps the traveler can read. So other than LtPowers, is there anyone else who objects to removing the static map? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, ignore anyone who disagrees with you. Great way to collaborate, Ikan.  Powers (talk) 23:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because you are always opposed to dynamic maps, even in a case like this, when it seems obviously illogical and doesn't serve the traveler to oppose them. Therefore, unless you or someone else edits the static map to make it superior to the dynamic map, I will absolutely try to find a consensus that doesn't include you, because in this kind of case, ignoring your opinion seems to be what's needed to serve the traveler's interest. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Listen to yourself. You're assuming your conclusion.  Since any opinion that disagrees with yours is "obviously illogical", there's no room for debate, is there?  The height of arrogance.  Powers (talk) 01:12, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Try to find any other person who thinks the static map in this article is more readable than the dynamic map. I'll be interested to see if you find anyone. This isn't a matter of arrogance; it's a matter of caring more about the reader/traveler than about a principle of traditional cartography. I have over 20 atlases and have been a geography buff since I was 6 or younger, but for practical purposes, I now use Google maps and the like much more often than the beautiful atlases that I love and don't have the heart to give up. I've seen your uncompromising opposition to dynamic maps. You call me arrogant; I would point out that you would serve the traveler better by being more flexible on this issue. And since you won't, I will continue to ignore your non-arguments (the small matter of an otherwise unreadable static map showing the directions we New Yorkers think of as "north" and "south" cannot be said to override its unreadability). Edit the map and make it readable at a size that's reasonable to insert into this article, and then everyone will be happy with it. Until then, you don't seem to have anything to say except that I should "collaborate" more and be less "arrogant" by respecting your preferences over the interest of the reader/traveler. I see no reason to do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you find eat listing #6 on the dynamic map? How about sleep listing #2?  And remember -- no zooming or panning allowed, because we're talking about the maps as they appear in the article.  I don't understand why you're willing to overlook the amateurish icon overlaps and the lack of custom orientations in dynamic maps, but not overlook the faults of a high-quality static map that you could easily fix to make readable if you were willing to put in a bit of effort.  Powers (talk) 18:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I can hardly read anything on the static map. If you want to rescue it, please edit it and don't tell me that I can easily fix it, because I have never taught myself how to make or edit a static map and won't spend a lot of leisure time I don't really have to teach myself now. I invite you to make the edits. Otherwise, we have to judge the maps as they are now, and despite the imperfections in the dynamic map, its superior readability, overall, seems to be obvious to everyone but you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The static map is fine if you view it full-size. Both maps require steps to be taken to view everything on them.  Why favor the dynamic map over the static, unless it's just because you don't like handcrafted maps?  Why not ask User:PerryPlanet to update his map?  And how quickly are you going to move on to the next Manhattan district, threatening to remove the map unless I get to work on fixing it?  Powers (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Perry Planet hasn't been here for months, right? You know very well that these articles are supposed to be printable in one shot. I already told you, I love maps. That's not the issue. Yes, perhaps Manhattan/Upper West Side should be next to have a new map, but the reason push came to shove here is that the article has two maps, and one is clearly better than the other, except to you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * They both have problems, and neither one is suitable for printing out-of-the-box, so to speak. So why not leave them both in the article and let the reader decide which one he wants to take steps to make readable?  Powers (talk) 20:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Support for removing the static map. The dynamic map is more readable and more up-to-date, and assuming that the reason for the static map alignment is readability, the dynamic map is more readable even with the off-axis alignment.  Note that even at full-screen using the new media viewer the static map labels are not readable to me, so I think Ikan's readability argument has significant merit, even ignoring any other arguments related to dynamic vs. static maps. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:12, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * So fix the map, for crying out loud. This is a wiki, everything's editable.  Powers (talk) 23:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to edit maps, but I do know when a map has names I can read and when it doesn't. If you think the static map can be superior to the dynamic map, perhaps you'd like to edit it to make all the features on it readable, and thereby rescue it. And when you're done with that, try looking at the other static maps for New York neighborhoods... Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * To the point about "fixing" the static map, we currently have two maps, and ignoring any arguments for or against dynamic/static maps, the current dynamic map is far more readable than the static map, so I don't see any point in "fixing" a map when a superior alternative is already present. If someone wants to redo the static map and make an argument for it being superior to the dynamic map then we can have that debate, but the current reality is a choice between two existing maps, one of which is clearly more usable than the other. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Support for the dynamic map. As traveler I do enjoy when geo coordinates of the possible places are available (Great progress since last Automn by the way).
 * Concerning the rotation this is not a blocker, but should be noted to the dynamic map guys, that some locations needs a to be aligned differently than North-South. --Axisstroke (talk) 14:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that editable? It would be great to orient this map such that the grid of numbered streets is all horizontal and not diagonal. Where should this be proposed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Rotation of dynamic maps is not possible. The used software does not support that. - Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 06:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's too bad, but thanks for letting us know. Nevertheless, the dynamic map is clearly better in this article, in my opinion. Please express your own opinion about whether the static or dynamic map should be deleted from this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Support for removing the static map. The dynamic map is easier to read and supports the practical in the article texts. - Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 07:32, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, it would be nice if someone just fixed the map, but I don't think there is a critical mass of people to even consider static maps to be a big priority. Take a look at Lausanne being summarily demoted from a star article with little fanfare due to poor maps, though I think its information is rather sparse too. No one could rescue it in time and I see no difference in saying that the static map in this article is poor as well, not even in relation to dynamic maps. I've replaced the old map of Singapore/Chinatown with a dynamic map because it was just too dated. Sure if there was more time, I would rather be writing more about trips, both recent and old, than making SVGs of city maps. Region maps are still pretty useful and pretty though. -- torty3 (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

[Unindent]So far, we have a count of 5-1 in favor of removing the static map. I will take no action for another couple of days to see if anyone else expresses an opinion, because it's still a relatively small number of people. Powers, I once again invite you to find others in favor of keeping the static map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:29, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

 * ...(sigh). I'm really of two minds of this matter. On one hand - and I think this is more just the natural consequence of the fact that I created the thing - I hate to see the static map go, just because I'm proud of the work I put into it. On the other hand, I don't find the quality of the dynamic map to be so objectively lacking that I am opposed to it, either. My only real problem with the dynamic map is the lack of useful transit info on it; on my static maps, I made the subway lines and stations a prominent part of the map, given how essential they are to getting around Manhattan. On the dynamic map, there's no lines and you have to zoom in to see the station icons, and even then they give no info as to what the stations are called or which lines they serve, and given the complexity of the New York subway system, I feel like this makes the current subway icons next to useless. If there's a way to resolve that matter, I would have no complaints about using the dynamic map.

 * But more than that, I'm sick of the fact that 90% of the time, I'm the only one who bothers to update the maps I create. It really isn't that hard to do it, yet there's clearly a reluctance among other users to do so, perhaps because the prospect of dealing with Inkscape scares people off. Now if I had just made one or two static maps, I wouldn't be worried about this, but I made all the static maps for Manhattan. So if I'm the only guy bothering to update any of them, that's a bit much for me. And in a case like this, where the guy who made them has barely been active the last few months, this is downright damaging to a website that's supposed to be a collaborative effort where work can pass between hands as people come and go.

 * This is a problem that the dynamic maps don't seem to face, so if replacing the static maps with dynamic ones is what it takes to get people to actually update the map, then great. Let's do it. Besides LtPowers, no one here seems to have any interest in the upkeep of the static maps, and I accept that. (But can we at least do something about the lack of decent transit info on the dynamic map?) PerryPlanet (talk) 21:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Perry, thanks for coming by and expressing your views. Is it possible to address the problems with transit system mapping in dynamic maps? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 * With the layer control (top right) you can select different map content. Layer "Traffic line network" contains all informations about public transport (see example 1). Bus and tram stops are also included when available in OpenStreetMap (see example 2). The update of OSM is very easy (see OSM editor). -- Joachim Mey2008 (talk) 05:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Ah, more steps for the user to take to get a useful printable map. The arguments against the handcrafted one are falling one by one.  Powers (talk) 14:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * As it is very, very clear that we're not going to resolve fundamental differences of opinion over the value of static vs dynamic maps, and since there is only one objection and significant support for the dynamic map, I've gone ahead and made the change. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:16, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not that my objections have in any way been addressed. Is there a compelling reason why both maps can't stay?  Powers (talk) 18:10, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Duplication. We discourage that, correct? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * But since both are imperfect, both bring something to the table that the other doesn't have, right? Powers (talk) 18:27, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * With all due respect to PerryPlanet, who I really wish were around and editing more, I don't think a map that is almost impossible to read on the screen brings very much to the table. And I think it's a bit strange to have two different maps for the same neighborhood in one article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * But that was the compromise, Ikan. We agreed not to stand in the way of dynamic maps being added to articles so long as handcrafted maps weren't removed.  Powers (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry; I sincerely don't remember such a compromise. Can you please point us to the discussion where it was agreed to? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition, which led to Dynamic maps Expedition (specifically "Do not add a dynamic map when a Wikivoyage-style static map is already present."). When I wrote that proposal the goal was to allow broader deployment of dynamic maps, but to also try to avoid any conflict in cases where a static map was already present - we didn't want people replacing good static maps with dynamic maps since we don't have any guidance on when or if one should be preferred to the other.  However, as with anything on this wiki, I interpreted that as being subject to additional discussion for specific cases, and not a prohibition against ever proposing a static map be replaced under any circumstances. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:41, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If I had taken part in that discussion, I would have disagreed with never being able to substitute a much clearer dynamic map for a pretty much unreadable static map. However, I understand why you are upset about this, Powers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:36, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well then Ryan that wasn't much of a compromise, was it? Powers (talk) 12:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Should the Metropolitan Museum be moved here?
So the Metropolitan Museum of Art is currently on the Central Park page, placed there obviously because it fits within the basic parameters of Central Park (5th Ave-8th Ave, 59th St-110th St). However, I'm wondering if it would be better placed here, with the other attractions of "Museum Mile". It's oriented towards the Upper East Side, and as such is cut off from the rest of the park despite being technically within it.

What does everyone else think? PerryPlanet (talk) 18:08, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Seems reasonable, though I would't redraw the borders, and I'd still mention it on the Central Park page. Powers (talk) 19:10, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Good points. PerryPlanet (talk) 18:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I think it's fine that the complete listing is in the Central Park article. It should be mentioned on this page, but that doesn't mean the whole listing has to be moved here. If it is, though, based on the rationale you give, I wouldn't fight it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Weill Cornell Medical Institute
This was just added as a "See" listing. here is a Google image search result. Do you think it's beautiful or striking? Its existence as a medical school is irrelevant for non-student visitors. Is it a viable "See" listing? What do you think? I've never intentionally visited it, nor do I think it stands out compared to other hospital buildings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't immediately see anything noteworthy enough about it to warrant a "See" listing, but why don't we ask the person who added it to share their thoughts as to why they think it warrants a "See" listing? The dog2, would you like to weigh in on this? PerryPlanet (talk) 02:53, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipapers?
Re: this edit: What are wikipapers, and is there a reason why links to them are not covered by the same guidelines as Links to Wikipedia? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:16, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Urban Outfitters
See here. There are 10 locations in New York, 8 of which are in Manhattan, and there are a bunch of locations in suburbs. They're also an international chain - I searched Toronto, London, Berlin, Vienna, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and Paris and got results. I think that per WV:Boring, we shouldn't list it in this article. What do you think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:44, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

"Eat" section
I just edited out what I considered outrageous touting of a fairly good ice cream chain listing. I also just edited out the hypey expression "endless variety" from another listing for a bakery I actually love, so I think it will make sense to go through the language in all the listings.

That said, a bigger issue is what happened to the "Budget", "Mid-range" and "Splurge" division of this section? (Answer here.) Unless money is no object (and for most travelers, it is - don't forget that most visitors to the Upper East Side won't stay there), price within a particular radius is the first consideration when considering restaurants. Only when you find acceptably priced places do you consider what cuisine they serve. So I really want that normal division restored. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

 * I've just restored the normal "Budget", "Mid-range" and "Splurge" categories and plugged the new entries into them. The next time someone wants to so radically alter the structure of this article, please discuss it on this page and see what kind of pushback you get before acting. I think the next step is going to be to reduce the amount of overall gushing. If everyplace is great, wonderful and fantastic, how does a reader distinguish between them? For the record, for example, I haven't been impressed with Fledermaus's cuisine - e.g., their goulash is just OK, but it's expensive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Changing of subway map
Hello everyone. I was just wondering if and how someone could change the interactive map with all of the points and places to include the newly built 2nd Avenue Subway. I am certainly not an expert in creating maps and my computer doesn't have the best software to do it so if someone could do that quick inclusion I'd be super grateful! Thegayfrenchbullie123 (talk) 16:26, January 4, 2020 (EST)

title: Talk:Manhattan/Upper East Side