text:
Talk:Marseille

So, I was going to say that this is the wrong title, and that it's spelled Marseilles, but then I did a quick dictionary lookup and found Marseille listed as a synonym. I was then going to make the argument that Marseilles was more common, but an English-only search on Google showed about a 10-to-1 ratio in favor of Marseille.

So, as a last resort, to preserve my dignity, I figured I'd just put a note in here about the name, and that I think Marseille is the right one after all. --(WT-en) Evan 11:46, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)
 * I heard that it's spelled Marseilles in English. One can make a redirect Marseilles -> Marseille, and add a mention to the article. (WT-en) Yann 16:47, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)

 * Good idea. I'll make Marseilles, just so it's not a problem in the future. --(WT-en) Evan 17:30, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Rollback
I rolled back the deletion without comment of "Le cigale et fourmi" by an anonymous user. If this place is actually gone, please re-delete. --(WT-en) Evan 14:19, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Stay safe
I just want a say that lot of people think marseille is a dangerous city, which is not true. I mean it is not more dangerous that Paris! There are some Area where you shouldn't go, but do the tourist goes in the 18, 19, 20 arrondissement in Paris? No, because it is not safe there for them. So i would love people to stop beeing afraid by what they hear about Marseille. It is a cosmopolitan place, with people from everywhere, and the truth is you will be much more welcomed in marseille than in Paris by local people. So the last part of the article from wikivoyage shouldn't be there. The fact is that it is not in the French version, because people aren't afraid anymore of Marseille! So don't be afraid and go there to see by yourself!

I couldn't agree more. Not only is this section not in proper English but it is also incorrect. Marseille is not one of the most dangerous cities in Europe for muggings and petty theft. Until citations can be provided which show how dangerous Marseille is --in relation to other cities (whether French or European) these section should remain deleted.

(WT-en) Dazzla Talk Contributions News Expedition Docent - York 01:52, 23 September 2010 (EDT)
 * i am restoring this section and removing the comparatives. It is verging on negligence for this article to lack a Stay Safe section. The fact is that Marseille is a relatively dangerous city and if travellers feel that it is unsafe they should be allowed to say so without having to post research to prove their point. Please try to edit constructively. This isn't wikipedia.

This is a bit of a difficult topic as Marseille does have a reputation as a dangerous city. I moved to Marseille from York and to be absolutely honest I felt more threatened on a Friday night in York - there is certainly less drunkenness here.

OK, so add a warning if you feel it is needed, but like the anonymous comment above says, really Marseille is no more than a relatively cosmopolitan city rather than "a relatively dangerous one". If you want citations look at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/arts/music/19rap.html

and this

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/alcohol-fuels-a-rocketing-of-violence-in-york-1186790.html

(WT-en) Mars-Say-Yeah 07:46, 16 October 2010 (EDT)

 * Here's one article: http://newobserveronline.com/the-extermination-of-the-white-race-marseille-in-france-will-be-first-majority-muslim-city-in-europe/ --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Please explain your purpose in linking an obviously racist article from an obviously racist source. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't be surprised if many parts of France are under a high rate of crime. No offense, but you obviously haven't gone beyond the "racism" card. As a matter of fact, western Europe and North America have immigration policies that deport illegal immigrants that are productive and keep illegal immigrants that are criminals free (a recruitment method of the Central Intelligence Agency's black hats, no less). You, the reader, can decide for yourself if the latter fact changes or reinforces your personal views on a particular subject. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:40, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

 * No-one was talking about deportation of non-citizen criminals, and to a visitor, the nationality of a criminal is irrelevant, only the relative risk or lack of risk of crime. Linking an article with a title including "the extermination of the white race" is not acceptable. I would advise you not to do it again and not to use Wikivoyage as a place to argue or try to incite arguments about that. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:13, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

 * If my "contribution" is to be labelled as nonsense, then Wikivoyage ought to create their equivalent to Wiktionary's page of bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Your contributions, other than this particular one on this talk page, have been fine. That said, we do have Joke articles and Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:53, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

"Do/Tours" section
I think this section should probably be deleted per Tour. The remaining listing is touty. Does the type of car used constitute sufficient "value added" to keep some form of listing or not? What do you think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

 * The page that the Marseille en 2CV listing links to looks like a directory / ad page, not something about 2CV tours, so I would delete it. (I would be more inclined to keep Marseille Provence Greeters which was removed earlier, as this is a group of volunteers, not a commercial operation.) AlasdairW (talk) 20:29, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your reply. Free tours are consistently deleted on this site, because the mere fact of their being free doesn't make them "value added" according to the definition at Tour. I tend to disagree with this policy, but it's a consensus to date, so I enforce it. I will delete the other listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"Buy"
Is this not a useful section for the article? Regrets, have no experience there, but will visit this summer. Regards, Hennejohn (talk) 23:35, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

 * A city that big absolutely should have a "Buy" section. I added the subtitle. Maybe someone else can add some content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Frommers has this article....  Perhaps a few prompts for the experts.  Hennejohn (talk) 23:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Marseille


text:
Talk:Marshall Islands

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Marshall Islands/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 05:36, 28 Mar 2005 (EST)

External link
Moved here from "Understand" because it appears at face value to violate WV:External links:

General travel and country information can be found on the Marshall Islands Guide site by local journalist Karen Earnshaw

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:48, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Marshall Islands


text:
Talk:Martinique

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Martinique/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

Somebody that wanted to check out the Wiki-features? ;-) Yes, it works.

Should all occurrences of department in this article be changed to département - ?

Removed External Links: see Where did the "External links" sections go?' Hello Martinique: http://www.hello-caribbean.com/hello27/hello27.htm Martinique Promotion Bureau: http://www.martinique.org/ Le Comite Martiniquais du Tourisme: http://martiniquetourism.com/article7.html (WT-en) SHC 21:41, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

Really? Ferrari car hire for 16,000+ euros? Is there a source for that?

Currency
"Currency euro (EUR); French franc (FRF)"

Why does it say that you can use FRF when it has been out of circulation for a few years now? I will remove it. (WT-en) J-C V 16:28, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

listings
Should there be any listings besides airports and cities in this article? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:23, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Martinique


text:
Talk:Maryland

Regions
I created the regions from the Maryland Department of Tourism list. Recently the creation of Prince George's County has led to the question of whether we should include counties as another level on the hierarchy. My inclination is no -- that's a greater subdivision than you see in most tour guides, and it would lead to some pretty empty pages. On the other hand, there aren't a ridiculous number of counties (can't remember back to fourth grade off the top of my head to get the exact number), people identify places fairly strongly by county around here, and Wikivoyage philosophy seems to be to create a skeleton that people can put meat on later. Whichever way people think, I'll be happy to get the pages properly organized. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 12:13, 28 December 2006 (EST)

 * Based on Maryland it seems like each region is comprised of a tiny handful of counties, so I think it makes sense to simply redirect the county name to the appropriate region. Talk:U.S. counties (disambiguation) has a discussion about how to handle counties, and the consensus seemed to be that counties are arbitrary government units, and should only be used in Wikivoyage when they are useful to a traveler.  In this case I think redirecting the county name to the appropriate region makes the most sense. -- (WT-en) Ryan 12:36, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Sub-regions
Based on Wikivoyage_talk:Geographical_hierarchy, it seems like we might want to at some point divide the Maryland regions into sub-regions. Here are the current city counts:
 * Capital Region (Maryland) 9
 * Central Maryland 7
 * Eastern Shore (Maryland) 6
 * Southern Maryland 4
 * Western Maryland 1

So we're not there yet, but it seems like there's the potential for many more than 9 in each of those regions. I'll keep a count. It's likely we'll want to divide these into county-based subregions. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 21:02, 18 January 2007 (EST)
 * The creation of Glen Echo has pushed me to create Montgomery_County_%28Maryland%29. --(WT-en) Jonboy 22:24, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Which nine cities?
According to, the top 10 cities in Maryland by population are Baltimore, Frederick, Gaithersburg, Rockville, Bowie, Hagerstown, Annapolis, Salisbury, College Park, and Greenbelt. Not necessarily the top 10 for visitors, but it's a starting point. Taking the 6 we have articles on gives me Baltimore, Frederick, Gaithersburg, Hagerstown, Annapolis and College Park. Making sure all regions gets represented causes me to add St. Marys City and Ocean City (also tourist destinations). Bethesda is a pretty big restaurant destination, etc., so that's number 9. I'm now going to get rid of St. Michaels from this page (it's still on the region page). Opposing points of view welcome. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 21:54, 22 January 2007 (EST)

I think we should add Silver Spring to the list. I propose that we remove Gaithersburg as it's not really a city for tourists. Hagerstown and Annapolis both should stay for obvious reasons. College Park should stay for the University of Maryland. I'm going to go ahead and change it. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Big Wang (talk • contribs) 13 Feb 2007

Cumberland definately should be added. The Queen City is coming up as one of the main tourism destinations in the state due to the Allegheny Highlands Trail, the C&O Canal, the downtown historic district, as well as others. The list of cities definately should not just be population centers, but it has to include the main regional cities as well. If the list can't be amended to ten cities, then probably College Park, Bethesda or Silver Spring should be deleted. They are all DC suburbs and too close together anyway. - (WT-en) macmurchaidh 17:46, 24 March 07

 * I agree with your basic points. For future reference, however, you should make them here, achieve consensus, and then switch to nine cities.  I'm going to whack Silver Spring, as much as I like it. --(WT-en) Jonboy 19:03, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Nine "other destinations"
I revamped the other destinations list, and removed a bunch of minor state parks. I'm pretty confident in the new list as MD's top "other destinations." Probably the weak link is Smith Island; it is a huge attraction from my standpoint, but then again, I'm an amateur phonologist and they speak with a 17th century English accent over there. Anyway, changes to the list should first be discussed here. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:32, 8 March 2008 (EST)

 * On second thought, St. Mary's City is more of an "other destination" than a city—an unincorporated community with no restaurants, it's really just the historic city-museum and the college campus. Maybe it would be best to swap it into the 9 destinations, replacing Smith Island or Patapsco Valley State Park? And then add a different article to the cities list? I've been thinking that Salisbury might warrant a slot in that list. Or maybe another worthwhile destination in Southern Maryland? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:26, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

 * I'd be amenable to that, but I'd like to stay with a Southern Maryland destination. Solomons might be a nice choice.  It has restaurants, a few museums, shops... --(WT-en) Jonboy 19:46, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

 * That sounds like a good final list to me. I'll make the swaps and we can call this a consensus if no one objects over the next couple weeks. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:49, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

Lead image
Wow, I just realized that the Maryland article has no photos! That's got to change, and I've found a bunch of good ones, but first lets pick a lead image. For me, the most beautiful site in MD is a sunset over the egret-filled bay marshes from Assateague, but I didn't find any such images that met my expectations. So here are a few suggestions:

 * commons:Image:ChesapeakeTidalWetlands.jpg — best Chesapeake wetlands shot I could find
 * — definitely not an illustrative shot, but this shot struck me with such a strong dose of Maryland that I had to put up a link
 * — maritime & the bay bridge
 * — a nice Bay sunset shot that could use a little brightening

Those were the best "representative" shots I could find tonight—thoughts? other suggestions? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

 * Of these, I'd take #3. (The link for #1 didn't work for me, BTW.)  #2 and #4 could have been other states as far as I was concerned.  I would also find reasonable shots of the Inner Harbor, the State House or the Naval Academy.  Or crabs.  Definitely crabs.  --(WT-en) Jonboy 08:04, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Here are more, of which we can use elsewhere if not for the lead img. I've got crab pics, but I'm saving those for the eat section, I think. I'd love to get a picture of the State House from the harbor, or a picture of one of the Annapolis-area crab houses from the deck of a boat, but no luck so far. And I tend to think the Baltimore Harbor shots just represent Baltimore, not Maryland so much (since that's the only real city there). Although it's hard to find anything that really represents the state, since its geographically so varied.

 * jousting
 * great falls
 * Cumberland train
 * Assateague dunes
 * Assateague path
 * Cumberland Heritage Fest
 * Western Maryland train passing Cumberland
 * An, err, unorthodox choice

--(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:14, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

 * I've also been looking for a good one of boats in the Annapolis Harbor, with the Capitol Building in the background, and finally I've found one: . It's not as sharp as I'd like, but that sunset is really pretty. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:42, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

Talk section
I believe I got carried away with this one, and the info really isn't that travel-relevant. I'll archive it here in case someone wants to use it for some purpose:

Marylanders, mainly concentrated in and around Baltimore, have a peculiar accent, with which most United States residents are not familiar, and would not be able to identify. Known as the Merlin Dialect, for how "Merlindirs" pronounce the name of their state, consonants seem to lazily disappear and vowels get reduced without warning. Listen for water becoming wooder, and orange as awrange, and you'll realize there really is an accent here. And don't say Maryland like Mary land—you'll sound funny. Nonetheless, the Maryland accent comes from the region that spawned the General American Pronunciation, so despite the regional accent, most Amercuhns don't actively notice the difference.

A more extreme version of the Maryland accent is found around Baltimore and Baltimore County. That is, Bawlmer and Baldimor County. Known as Bawlmorese, it's considered one of the least attractive accents in the U.S., but it sure is interesting. See the Baltimore article for more details.

The Eastern Shore, because of its proximity to Virginia and historic isolation from the Western Shore, maintains a Southern accent akin to the nearby Tidewater region of Virginia.

In addition, are interesting dialects to be found in the isolated island communities of the Chesapeake Bay, where Victoria-era British accents have been near-perfectly preserved! It sounds interesting, but it sure is hard to understand.

--(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:37, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

title: Talk:Maryland


text:
Talk:Maryville (Tennessee)

Any reason to have "budget", "midrange", and "splurge" categories for restaurants here? There aren't so many entries, so it's not confusing if they're all together, I feel. Is joining them good? 65.13.106.111 10:54, 30 May 2010 (EDT)

 * The general rule of thumb is that once there are more than 5-9 items in a list that they be broken up into sub-sections. If there aren't any other restaurants in this town then a single list is probably fine, but if the list will ever grown beyond 9 then it's best to use the sub-headings. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:02, 30 May 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Maryville (Tennessee)


text:
Talk:Masada

Destination or Attraction
The rule of thumb is: "do you sleep there?" I noticed in the official link that it's possible to sleep there if you are a group, but that the average visit is 3 hours long. This makes me suspect that it's actually an attraction which should go on a nearby destination page. What do you think? -- (WT-en) Mark 06:01, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * As you have noted, Masada is more of an attraction rather than a destination. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 08:33, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * It's also a cool jazz/improv band lead by John Zorn. ;) -- (WT-en) Mark 09:38, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * Anyhow, which destination shall we move it too. Where would you suggest I stay for instance if I visit. -- (WT-en) Mark 09:46, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)
 * There are two main choices for lodging: the Dead Sea or Jerusalem. The Dead Sea resorts are extremely close, and Jerusalem (which is more popular and has more lodging choices) is just over an hour away. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 10:04, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * I guess one of the Dead Sea resorts probably then, and we can put it under Get Out in Jerusalem. -- (WT-en) Mark 10:42, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)

Having been to Masada twice, I do think it warrants its own page -- it's a large and complex site, with its own restaurants and whatnot, and it's not really close to anything else. Ein Gedi is the closest of the resorts, but there's little if any logical connection between the two. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:07, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)

 * I'm inclined to agree with (WT-en) Jpatokal. I think the article just needs a bit of expansion. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 12:29, 17 Feb 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:Masada


text:
Talk:Masbate

IS THERE ANYBODY FROM MASBATE......? CAN WE WORK TOGETHER TO HAVE AN INTERNET SITE FOR MASBATE ISLAND TO PROMOTE OUR PROVINCE SPECIALLY BEACHES!!!,,, I'M ACTUALLY FROM ESPERANZA..THE LAST TOWN SOUTH OF MASBATE, HOME OF THE GREAT!!GREAT!!! BEACHES... PLEASE SEND ME AN EMAIL at habbe_7485@yahoo.com

HELP TO PROMOTE MASBATE!!!LET'S WORK TOGETHER AND MAKE A DIFERENT....... —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 125.60.241.18 (talk • contribs)

title: Talk:Masbate


text:
Talk:Maseru

Accomdation PDF
A useful list of accomodation put together by the Southern African Development Community for a recent conference can be found here: http://www.sadc.int/summit/2006/documents/Accommodation%20Establishments%20in%20Maseru.pdf Please delete this link when all the details have been copied into the article. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 05:37, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Maseru


text:
Talk:Mashhad

Hello! My name is Marina; I’m from Russia, Ekaterinburg. Are you planning to travel this summer? Do you like adventures and journey? What about Russia this summer? The big travel will take place in July- September 2005 across the Great Russia (The 10-th of July – The 20-th of September). My friend and I are organizing this journey! We are not a travel agency and this is not a commercial project. We do it because we enjoy travelling and discovering new horizons. We have traveled throughout the world and across Russia rather much.

Now we want to cross all our country by car - from the East to the West, from Vladivostok up to Moscow and Saint Petersburg. We are planning to visit both large major cities and small towns and villages on our way; to have a rest on picturesque lakes and rivers.

General length of our way will make 11-12 thousand kilometers. We will see all beauty and uniqueness of Russia, its architecture, nature, history, life of simple people and industry. The route will include about 35 Russian cities, and multitude of villages and settlements.

July and August are the warmest months in Russia. The average daytime temperature at this time is 22-23 degrees С. So, the sunshine will follow us :-) the day lasts quite long during this time - up to 17 o’clock.

I know that Russia attracts many tourists, but it is not so easy for foreign people to travel in Russia. Practically nothing is done them. Inscriptions and pointers in English as well as tourist’s centers are nowhere but in Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Another problem is that only few people speak English.

Therefore, I suggest joining us 6 positive, extreme, bold and courageous ones who dream of travelling across all Russia. It is not a commercial project - we just travel together. I’m 25 years old, my friend is 30. If someone joins us, we will be glad to show our country. Your age is of no importance. The main thing is your desire to see and to feel Russia and your readiness for actually journey with joy and obstacle some times.

We are glad, if you join us! If it is interesting for you, write to me. Tell a little about yourself, about the travel and about why Russia is interesting for you and that you expect from the travel, also please send your photo. Russia is truly incomparable ... see it for yourself!

Great to hear from you, Marina.

aquafea@yandex.ru

www.grandrussiatour.ru

Farsi?
I removed this from the page; please feel free to translate and include the info. --(WT-en) Evan 14:44, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

مجتمع تجاري الماس واقع در بلوار خيام شمالي- حاشيه صدمتري يكي از زيباترين مجتمع‌هاي خاورميانه است

List of universities
Moving it from the main article as most likely majority of them are of no help to the tourists/foreigners. --Kiaora (talk) 08:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Ferdowsi University of Mashhad
 * Medical & Health University of Mashhad
 * Institute of Technology "SIT"
 * ImamReza International University
 * Azad University of mashhad

Suspect typo
from Correct typos in one click fanfar->fanfare? (omit) context: as the tallest Ferris wheel or fanfar fanfar in Iran and Koohestan Park-e-Shadi

Suspect typo
from Correct typos in one click fanfar->fanfare? (omit) context: as the tallest Ferris wheel or fanfar fanfar in Iran and Koohestan Park-e-Shadi

title: Talk:Mashhad


text:
Talk:Mashiko

The Ikiru Pottery closed down years ago so I don't think it should be mentioned here at all. The owners have been back in the States for a few years now. User:(WT-en) Lotusbird
 * Thanks for plunging forward. --(WT-en) inas 23:43, 26 October 2011 (EDT)

title: Talk:Mashiko


text:
Talk:Maskali Island

''This page is for discussing the corresponding article or guide. For more about using talk pages check out Project:Using talk pages.''

Comments
What template is this guide inside of? I'm lost in creating an outline about the other Djiboutian island. --(WT-en) CurvyEthyl 00:18, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

 * The template is actually Template:Smallcity, which is usually what we use for an island that doesn't need to be subdivided, but does meet the criteria for having its own article. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:50, 28 September 2010 (EDT)

Archive VFD Discussion

 * Delete. Has had no actual content for 4 years, is just an empty page. (WT-en) Szevvy 20:03, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Keep. It is a real place and a valid article. An article being empty is not a reason to delete it.--(WT-en) burmesedays 21:15, 5 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Merge into Moucha Island. Nothing against the place, but since these are tiny islands with hardly any facilities or sights, located right next to each other and mostly visited in one go by divers, it might actually be better to create one (proper) article for them together. Ways of getting in or around are the same, as are the expectations for divers, as far as I can see. (WT-en) Justme 11:23, 13 September 2011 (EDT)
 * Redirect to Moucha Island per Justme. Redirect, rather than merge, because there is no content to merge! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:30, 13 September 2011 (EDT)

Result: Redirected to Moucha Island. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:35, 23 September 2011 (EDT)

title: Talk:Maskali Island


text:
Talk:Massachusetts

Regions
So, where would Pioneer Valley fit into the regions of Massachusetts? --(WT-en) Evan 16:14, 4 Dec 2003 (PST)

It's interesting to contrast the Open Directory's take on Massachusetts regions. --(WT-en) Evan 16:18, 4 Dec 2003 (PST)

I'm fairly certain Pioneer Valley and Blackstone Valley are one and the same. -(WT-en) Christopher S. Penn

 * Not quite. The Blackstone River runs through Central Mass and Rhode Island. The Pioneer Valley, aka the Connecticut River valley, is in Western Mass. (WT-en) Rhobite 20:45, 5 Dec 2003 (PST)

 * Coolio. So, I added PV.

 * Hey, so, do we have all of MA covered with these regions? What about Martha's and Nantucket? Should they be their own regions? --(WT-en) Evan 21:55, 5 Dec 2003 (PST)

Is it "Martha's Vinyard" or "Martha's Vineyard"? Google seems to have entries on both. --(WT-en) Nzpcmad 18:36, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

Wow, there's a lot of opportunity for boundary disputes here. It's really hard to delineate what region is where. On the other hand I'm not sure it matters whether something like Topsfield is put in North Shore or Merrimack Valley. Wikipedia shows considerable overlap and even refers to the squishy limits in the case of North Shore. Am I correct that we don't want to have every town listed on the region page?? (WT-en) OldPine 18:50, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Since we get to pick what regions to use we can also define exactly the size and shape of that region, so in cases where there is "squishiness" in the boundary we can say (for example) "the Central region is here defined as the area between Interstate 10 and the foothills of the White Mountains". California has a lot of squishiness as well, so a map was created and (where possible) the region artcle pages describe the borders we have decided upon for the region.  It's imperfect, and we generally just end policing things to make sure that (for example) Gilroy (California) stays in the Bay Area (California) region, and doesn't wander down to the Central Coast (California) (which it frequently does, see Talk:Bay Area (California)).

 * In terms of lists of towns and cities, every town or city should be listed in its parent region. In cases where the parent region contains dozens of cities we usually break things down further.  Using California as an example again we have:

 * Bay Area (California)
 * East Bay (Bay Area)
 * Alameda County
 * Contra Costa County

 * It's fine to start out with long lists of cities in a top-level region page and NOT create sub-regions - eventually someone will come along and break things up when the list gets un-manageable. -- (WT-en) Ryan 19:10, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Thanks for clarifying. So, every town needs to be listed somewhere. I've been wondering that. OK, I put SouthCoast as a state region. Pretty sure that's appropriate. What's left is sort of a mish-mosh of towns in this "Bristol-Norfolk" area that's not really a distinct region. Maybe with two sub regions it will make sense: one for the Taunton area and one more southwest of Boston. Thinking out loud a bit here I guess. (WT-en) OldPine 19:37, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Metro West/Greater Boston
(Discussion moved from (WT-en) Jrdouce talk page.) 23 Jun 2006

Hi, Jrdouce. Welcome. I see you have started a Metro West region in Massachusetts for Framingham, Ashland and some other towns. These towns are already part of the Greater Boston region. What's your take on this? Do you think Metro West should be made a region within the Greater Boston region? Couldn't we just keep them in Greater Boston? (WT-en) OldPine 16:14, 21 June 2006 (EDT)

Hi OldPine. I live in Ashland, and the folks and businesses out there identify the area as Metro West. There is the Metro West Daily news, the Metro West telephone book Metro West YMCA, etc. Metro West is close to Boston, but no closer than towns listed in the North Shore (Massachusetts) or South Shore (Massachusetts). I think the towns West of Boston, outside Route 128 up to those through which Route 495 runs are a distinct area economically and culturally. Of course that is just my opinion. I'm new to this, and I haven't had time to read all of the guidelines. What are your thoughts? (WT-en) Jrdouce

 * I definitely see your point. Rt. 128 is definitely a convenient dividing line. I had the same thoughts about Concord, MA. I took a look at Wikipedia because I think a lot of the designations we use come from or follow theirs. They include Framingham and Concord (but we don't have to I guess). I could see moving Framingham and Natick to Metro West from Greater Boston. Would also like others to comment. (WT-en) OldPine 13:27, 22 June 2006 (EDT)

 * I just discovered that Ashland is also under Blackstone Valley. That is definitely incorrect.  As watersheds go, Ashland (and Hopkinton) is in the Sudbury River Valley.  How are issues like this resolved? (WT-en) Jrdouce

 * I discovered that, too, yesterday and deleted it. As you say, it was clearly wrong. As far as the proper region for Ashland etc, we solicited comment and got none, so it's up to us :). Then, when we make the changes, we'll explain what we're doing and why in the summary box before saving. I'm with you for making the Metro West the region for Framingham/Natick/Ashland etc. and will be happy to make the changes if you want. (WT-en) OldPine 13:36, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Thanks, I'll leave the changes to you since you seem far more familiar with the organization of the site.  (WT-en) Jrdouce 23 June 2006 (EDT)

 * All done structurally except... Wikipedia includes Southborough. Do you think we should move it from Blackstone Valley or leave it there? Also, I see it both ways, but principal usage seems to be MetroWest with no space. Should it be that?? (WT-en) OldPine 15:35, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

Discussion moved here at this point -- should have been earlier, but I didn't think of it. (WT-en) OldPine 18:41, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

I beleive that Southborough should be included in MetroWest. The people I know who live there consider it so. Marlborough and Westborough are probably the Western boundary, but I can't make that claim with authority. Westborough is not really in the Blackstone Valley watersed (It's still Assabet\Sudbury watershed), but it is outside Route 495. Any thoughts? (WT-en) Jrdouce 13:03, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Regions

 * Is there some resolution on what all of the top-level regions for Massachusetts should be? Is the entire state covered, and do any of the current regions overlap?  Here's the present list:

 * Greater Boston
 * Cape Cod and the Islands A summer vacation area of beaches, art and antiques.
 * North Shore (Cape Ann)
 * South Shore
 * Metro West (West of Greater Boston)
 * Blackstone Valley (Central Massachusetts)
 * Pioneer Valley
 * Berkshire Mountains

 * If any of Massachusetts is NOT included, or if there is some overlap of regions then we should probably consider a different regional breakdown. The Massachusetts department of tourism uses 13 regions (too many for Wikivoyage) but I think they're lumping Blackstone Valley and Metro West into "Central Massachusetts" - see .  Does that make more sense? -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:25, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * We have 351 cities and towns in 14 counties to cover. It's hard to tell from that map exactly where they are drawing the lines. We are covering 10, 11 and 13 with Pioneer Valley and 6, 7 and 8 with "Cape Cod and the Islands". Regions 3 and 4 may not be covered. MetroWest is a pretty small area compared to these others (9 towns), but if we can be allowed 10 regions, could include it. (WT-en) OldPine 14:57, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Just to be clear, we don't have to (and usually do not) use a state's department of tourism regions for anything other than guidance. The thought here was that since the area west of Boston seems to be a source of confusion that perhaps the state's region ("Central Massachusetts") would be a good (and more inclusive) substitution for Blackstone Valley & MetroWest.  You two know the area best, so it's your call.  Also, there is no hard and fast rule that we need 5-9 regions - many areas have fewer, and some (such as California) have more; the important thing is just to have logical regions that cover the entire state.  The 7 +/- 2 thing is merely a guideline, and it shouldn't get in the way of doing what makes the most sense.  Also note that it's fine to have sub-regions within a top-level region, so Blackstone Valley and Metrowest could easily be put within a larger region if necessary - see Monterey Bay for one example of how this is done elsewhere.  I'll stop poking my nose into this discussion now since I don't know Massachusetts very well, and will leave those who know the state to work it out.  If you have questions you might want to look at Project:Geographical hierarchy, which has a bit more guidance on this issue. -- (WT-en) Ryan 15:14, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Good point. MetroWest is a very small region.  It is very distinct from Boston, so Greater Boston doesn't quite fit, but it's only 20+ mile West of Boston, so Central Mass doesn't quite fit geographically.  I also notice Wikivoyage doesn't include Merrimac Valley (Lowell, Haverhill etc.), which is essentially the Northern end of the Route 495 corridor.  I think the sub-region approach might be the best approach; after all, Massachusetts is smaller than the regions within some other states.  I'll try to take a look at Monterey Bay and Project:Geographical hierarchy and make a proposal, don't feel obligated to wait for me, if anyone else get to it fist go for it.  As an Ashland resident, I feel more connected to central mass, inspite of the proximity to Boston. (WT-en) Jrdouce 16:47, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

 * Nevertheless we are really pushing 7 +/-2. How about regions/subregions.  I'll take a stab -

 * Northeastern (Maybe split Greater Boston out as a fifth state region??)
 * Boston/Cambridge
 * Greater Boston
 * Metro West
 * North Shore
 * Merrimack

 * Southeastern
 * Bristol-Norfolk
 * South Shore
 * Cape Cod
 * SouthCoast
 * Islands

 * Central (Divide)
 * Worcester/Blackstone Valley
 * Quabbin
 * Wachusett
 * South-central (Palmer, Sturbridge etc.)

 * Western
 * Greater Berkshires (includes Housatonic Valley and Taconics)
 * Pioneer Valley
 * Hilltowns

 * 15 sub-regions so far, perhaps 20 before everyone is reasonably content. 76.80.26.121 15:59, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

 * Um, well, this has already been settled for a long time now, with, hopefully, all the towns assigned. If you review policy on dividing states to regions, you'll see that this is way too many regions for state division . Ah.. Regions with sub-regions. I misread all that. I think you're biting off more than you want to chew there, but I don't know how much time you have. Frankly, I don't see it as an improvement. (WT-en) OldPine 17:01, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 * On further reflection, I've changed my mind on this. I think I resist on aesthetic grounds--I like seeing all the areas laid out as they now are, but... you're right about the 7+/-2 being exceeded. It probably makes sense to reorg. I've taken the liberty of making changes to your suggested layout. I think it will go a whole lot easier if we try to stick to existing regions to start, set in the new layer between the state and the existing regions and then do the split-up of the old regions. Let's try to get consensus on the new hierarchy first. (WT-en) OldPine 13:42, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

Theme-based organization, fewer regions?
(Response to adding Hilltowns as a western subregion)

Split off from Pioneer Valley or does this include some Berkshire County?)

 * Good question. I'm waffling.  West of the Connecticut River Valley, there is a subsistence-farming hilltown culture much like rural Vermont. There is a summer resort culture probably centered in the Housatonic Valley (e.g. Tanglewood).  There is a milltown culture (e.g. North Adams or Woronoco).  Is it possible to draw mutually exclusive regions on a map, or do they actually interleave?  Well, they interleave.
 * OK, so maybe we should be organizing writing by themes more than by regions. With a thematic structure, we could develop historical narratives and cite places to illustrate them, instead of jumping from pillar to post around tiny regions.  Themes might be:   Boston as the capital of New England, colonial settlement, revolutionary war, seafaring (trade, fishing and whaling), farming (commercial and subsistence), mechanical industry, high-tech/computer/aerospace, regional cities, educational centers, tourism, quasi-wilderness (e.g. Quabbin, Mt. Greylock).  For example the Industrial Revolution had fairly consistent effects all over the state, even if Lawrence and Lowell were precocious.  Subsistence farming was about the same everywhere except in Pioneer Valley which had much better soil.  Whaling was the same deal out of New Bedford and Nantucket.  Within themes we could simply refer to east, southeast, central, Pioneer (Connecticut River) Valley, and western Massachusetts.  If the average state with ~75,000 square miles only gets ~10 regions, five geographic regions may suffice for Massachusetts with ~7,500 square miles. (WT-en) LADave 02:14, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

 * If you are suggesting that the themes be applied and written about at the five regional levels or the level below that--i.e. the ones detailed above, I agree. At least as it relates to helping the traveler. History, while fascinating, can be overdone in Wikivoyage, but if it provides flavor or understanding, that's a good thing. Encyclopedic See: Project:Welcome, Wikipedians (if you have not). I certainly look forward to any true "writing" as my skills are generally in formatting and listing rather than prose and style. What you suggest, applied on the five region pages (and the state itself!) would serve to draw readers down into the subregion pages. A good thing.(WT-en) OldPine 07:18, 29 May 2007 (EDT)
 * There's a discussion going on at Wikivoyage_talk:Geographical_hierarchy that makes me think that Cape Cod and Islands should be listed separately as a state level region due to it being the most famous tourist area of the state. (WT-en) OldPine 07:43, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Hilltowns

 * Add "Hilltowns" in Hampden, Hampshire and Franklin Counties west of the Connecticut River (or Pioneer) Valley. They are culturally differentiated from the valley -- settled by Scotch Irish subsistence farmers in the 1700s (where the CRV was settled by Puritans in the 1600s). Then Mill towns developing along rivers after the Civil War. Hilltowns have much in common with rural Vermont.  Further west, Berkshire County has become more connected with NYC. 76.80.9.100 17:47, 24 May 2007 (EDT)
 * That may be something worth noting on the Pioneer Valley page, but a separate region might be rather confusing as towns would be in both the county and the hilltown region. I, personally, don't find it a compelling addition. (WT-en) OldPine 10:05, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Well, they might not belong with PV because PV is (1) a valley, and (2) settled by "pioneers" starting in the 1630s. The hilltowns are mostly 1,000' higher than the valley and they weren't settled for over another 100 years. Despite proximity, the hilltowns have a very separate identity, except HT residents go to PV to shop.  On a similar note, should Quabbin be lumped with PV because it's mostly in Hampshire County? (WT-en) LADave 15:15, 26 May 2007 (EDT)
 * We've kind of maxed out the Massachusetts level for regions. The directive is to have about 10 at the state level (if I recall correctly). Bear in mind that we are not trying to be Wikipedia here (but see their article on PV). We also avoid overlaps as they become confusing. We don't necessarily create a region just because of a cultural or historical difference. I'm not sure how the traveller is served better by making a distinct region rather than by just explaining what you have to explain withing the PV region. Quabbin could probably have its own article as a cohesive destination, but I wouldn't bother making a state-level region of it. I can see splitting out a fourth region within the PV article however. PV might be a misnomer for this area, but it is widely known that way. I did add a mention to the PV regions section. Were you planning on adding anything or just arguing on principle? (WT-en) OldPine 18:06, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Regions

 * Hi (WT-en) OldPine, I've been very busy lately, but I have given thought to a Massachusetts region breakdown. The Eastern most regions of Massachusetts including the North Shore, South Shore and Greater Boston are pretty well agreed. The biggest area of confusion\disagreement is pretty much anything West of Route 128 and East of Worcester.  As a life-long resident of Massachusetts, I have always considered this area as Eastern Mass, although Greater Boston merits a distinct entry.  I have no satisfactory name in mind for this are other than "Eastern Massachusetts".  There are several river valleys in that area, the Merrimac, Concord, Sudbury, Nashua among others, and the Blackstone to the extreme southwest of that region.  The region could be called "The Eastern River Valleys" or even "The Merrimac Watershed" if the Blackstone is left out of the region.  I'm hesitant to push these names because I made up "Easter River Valleys" and anything with Merrimac in the name leads MA residents to think only of the Andover, Lawrence and Lowell area.  Do you have any idea for a name?  The rest of the state I propose "Cape & Islands"; "Central Mass", from Worcester to the West and "Berkshires" West of Central Mass to the Western boarder of the state.  Also, please let me know if I'm being a pain in the butt.  It's just that over the last 30+ years I've lived on the North Shore - twice, the South Shore and currently in Metro West.  They are all very distinct and separated from each other by a long drive on eastern MA roads. My main logic in for proposing regions is proximity of travel time around the region.  I can traverse the state from Ashland to Stockbridge in less time than it takes to drive 24 miles to Boston during rush hour.  I think that grouping Ashland State Park in Ashland and Castle Island in South Boston in the same region is misleading, a tourist could spend all day driving between. (WT-en) Jrdouce Aug 17, 2006 2PM EDT
 * OK, well, I'm not sure what you're saying there. Perhaps if you look at how it is now and tell me specifically what you don't like. I've put all the towns I could think of in each region and think we have the whole state covered. It is pretty much patterned after the state website above. I agree that Blackstone Valley region might better be called Central Massachusetts as I don't think the valley truly extends to the NH border. Merrimack Valley probably includes towns to the NW that are not truly in the valley either, but they really aren't tourist towns and I couldn't see making another region for them. Bristol-Norfolk ended up being a catch-all for towns in those areas that were mostly non-destinations. Please remember to sign with 4 tildes (~). Good to have you back. (WT-en) OldPine 14:20, 17 August 2006 (EDT)

 * I guess the only thing I realy disagree with is the various and overlapping divisions of the region generally West of Route 128 out to and a little beyond Route 495. I created Metro West, but most of those towns were already defined as Greater Boston or Blackstone Valley.  Ashland\Fraqmingham where I live isn't Greater Boston, but it's too far East to be Central Mass.  There are other groupings like Blackstone and Merrimack that seem to compete; another user pointed out that adding too many small regions like that gives a small state like Massachusetts too many microregions.  I do agree, but I can't come up with a much better way to define the area of Eastern MA between 128 and 498.  At this point I just thought it best to group that whole area into one region Eastern Massachusetts?, but I'll defer to anyone with a stronger convivtion.  What do you think?  Thanks (WT-en) Jrdouce 13:38, 21 August 2006 (EDT)
 * I don't see any overlapping that you are talking about. Maybe there are some fuzzy boundaries, but by placing the towns into the regions, that is made clear. I don't see anything to be gained by making an Eastern Massachusetts region that includes Greater Boston, MetroWest, Merrimack Valley, etc. Do you? I think the 11 regions as is works pretty well. (WT-en) OldPine 14:20, 21 August 2006 (EDT)

 * OK. I give. I think my region discussion has gotten out of proportion.  The discussion began when I created Metro West to hold Ashland.  Someone pointed out that it was already listed in Blackstone Valley and Greater Boston.  I disagreed with that grouping, so I wanted to propose an alternative.  I can live with the current regions, although Blackstone Valley is a bit too big in my opinion.  The river only runs South of Worcester into Rhode Island, yet the region runs to the New Hampshire border.  11 regions seems a lot for such a small state but I'm willing to leave well enough alone. Better to focus my attention on content.  Thanks for your help and your patience.  (WT-en) Jrdouce 10:17, 22 August 2006 (EDT)
 * I should probably let this drop, I think we should redirect Blackstone Valley to "Central Massachusetts". I think the eleven regions are justifiable in that the regions are somewhat distinct. I suppose we could have four upper level regions, Western, Central, Eastern, Cape Cod and then have subregions within those, but I think you end up with another problem then and a sort of tangled mess that makes it hard for the traveller to understand. (WT-en) OldPine 11:11, 22 August 2006 (EDT)

Regions
I think Revere, Winthrop, Saugus, and Wakefield should be included in Greater Boston. All of them are inside Route 128 and very close to Boston. (WT-en) Sumone10154 12:20, 15 January 2011 (EST)

Additionally Middleton should be part of the North Shore not Merrimack Valley. Can I go ahead and change it (in addition to the above)? (WT-en) –sumone10154 00:24, 2 February 2011 (EST)

If no one objects, I'm going to change it tomorrow (and I'll try to make a new map eventually). (WT-en) –sumone10154 16:06, 3 February 2011 (EST)

Almost NOTHING about the Pioneer Valley and Greater Springfield
In the list of Massachusetts firsts, no one mentioned the first gasoline-powered car, motorcycle, or fire engine--all produced in Springfield. For that matter, no one even mentioned that basketball was invented there!! Interchangeable parts was invented there as well, at the Springfield Armory. In Holyoke, Volleyball was invented.

In my edits, I've attempted to bring people up-to-date with the fact that Western Massachusetts has had quite an illustrious history in addition to eastern Mass. (It was founded only 6 years later, after all -- and Springfield was one of the 10 richest cities per capita for over 200 years.)

—The preceding comment was added by 71.192.97.169 (talk • contribs)

 * Thanks for your contributions! Please keep in mind this is a volunteer project; we rely on input from people like you in order to advance our goals.  You certainly increased the coverage of Springfield in this article.  (WT-en) LtPowers 15:15, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

Driving in Massachusetts
[//en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Massachusetts&diff=2134196&oldid=2103542 This edit] introduced a number of claims about strict enforcement of driving laws in MA that sound unreasonable to me. Is this a fair assessment of the actual situation? LtPowers (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I haven't been to Massachusetts in about 6 months, but this seems inaccurate at best. Speeding is pretty much universal in my experience.  On interstates, its not uncommon to see people exceeding the speed limit by more than 20 mph.  To give one anecdote, I was driving on a fairly wide road that didn't have any lane markings doing about 5-10 over the speed limit and was passed on the right by a bus.  Maybe they were being sarcastic. Godsendlemiwinks (talk) 18:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree, most of these claims are completely untrue, and I have removed them from this section. – sumone10154 ( talk ) 00:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
In the Hebrew Wikivoyage we are currently using this banner instead of the one which is currently used here. Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 02:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm really not sure on this one. If the new one is slightly less fuzzy at pagebanner size, that could be a determining factor. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Thatotherperson talk contribs  09:22, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I like the added element of having skyscrapers in the distance, but they're in a bit of an awkward spot compared to where the article title goes. What if we flipped it so the skyline part was on the other side? There's nothing in the new banner that should look weird backwards.

 * Flipping the picture creates an impossible view (in other words, one that's not possible to see anywhere), doesn't it? I think that kind of manipulation should bother us. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:06, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Thatotherperson talk contribs  10:29, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I doubt anyone visiting Massachusetts would be disappointed to learn that you can't see exactly the same view from the pagebanner on Wikivoyage, as long as the overall look and feel of the area was represented well.

 * Thanks for expressing your views. I'm unconvinced but would like to hear what others think. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Agreed that the banner works better in Hebrew, and that flipping it would not be a good idea (someone will say "That's not what the skyline looks like!"). That said, the article title should clear the skyline without trouble, and the current banner is pretty bad.  It looks like a vacant lot.  Powers (talk) 14:50, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * It doesn't look like a vacant lot to me. It looks like coastal Massachusetts, and I like that kind of landscape. That's not an argument against the new banner, though, just a defense of the current one. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Thatotherperson talk contribs  23:50, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The nameplate is clipping one of the skyscrapers on my screen, actually, but this may be a moot point; I've just noticed the proposed banner is a re-crop of the banner we're already using on Greater Boston. If the current banner needs to be replaced, here's three new options made from images that I don't think have been previously bannerized.

 * Glad you caught that, and congratulations on the new pagebanners, which are all good and all better than the current one. I like the first two almost equally; I may have a slight preference for the second one, but I could change my mind later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:00, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I prefer any of the three lower options. (lighthouse, cliffs or sunset). • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 20:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Lower three all better to me. I sort of like the lighthouse and sunset best. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I prefer the lighthouse banner. Texugo (talk) 14:51, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I like the bottom 3 - though they remind me of coastal pictures of New England in general! Matroc (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Cities
There are 11 cities on the list. I think removing Concord is sensible since Minute Man Historical Park redirects to the Concord page already. Brockton is on the list, but not a major tourist draw. That would get it back to 11, however, I don't think this list is quite right. Quincy is one of the largest cities in the state, but it's basically just a suburb of Boston and would be served fine by the greater Boston page. Waltham has some good restaurants and a nice downtown, but its still a suburb of Boston. Cambridge is already on the list so I don't see why these 2 are necessary. I don't think Fall River AND New Bedford are necessary either since they are fairly similar and very close to each other. There is no representation from the Berkshires, where Pittsfield would be an obvious choice. Salem is also an option. Northampton would be another good option. It's a good tourist draw and very different from Springfield, the other Pioneer Valley city on here. Provincetown could also be justified to represent the cape.

Thoughts?Godsendlemiwinks (talk) 23:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Please post your list of 9 cities; it'll be easier when we have a chance to look at that. Thanks for working on these kinds of organizational issues, and for all the rest of the work you do! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

 * N.B.: Waltham and Concord are the two "new" additions; you can tell by looking at the map I created some time ago when there were only nine cities. Powers (talk) 00:43, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

 * My proposed list

Godsendlemiwinks (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Boston
 * Worcester (Massachusetts)
 * Springfield (Massachusetts)
 * Lowell
 * Cambridge (Massachusetts)
 * New Bedford
 * Pittsfield
 * Northampton (Massachusetts)
 * Salem (Massachusetts)

 * Looks good to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Map updated. The three removed cities (Quincy, Brockton, Fall River) are all south of Boston, leaving that region a little sparse, but maybe that's okay. Powers (talk) 01:55, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

 * I think that's fine. Plymouth is covered in Other Destinations and that's a much bigger draw for people than Fall River or Quincy.  Salem could be switched for Provincetown, although Salem is a lot bigger and is more of a year round destination.Godsendlemiwinks (talk) 02:14, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Massachusetts Reorg
I was just clicking around and wow are there a lot of pages for towns and regions and whatnot. I would guess maybe 80% of these pages do not meet the requirements in the what is an article page. I have lived here most of my life and I get it how hard MA is to break up, why do we have so many towns!? I think the work that has been done so far is great in capturing cool locations around the state, and the cities sections spell out exactly what towns belong to what regions.

But when I read these articles from the point of view of like a middle aged dutch couple who don't know anything about MA, they couldn't care less about all that. They want to eat some clam chowder, look at some old revolutionary stuff, and stay at a nice B&B somewhere. They don't care about the puritan village history in Wayland, they don't want to eat at Papa Gino's in Medfield.

There is a lot of great info in the town pages which should maybe be captured by region pages instead? By reducing the number of pages we will lose some listings of (for example) local golf courses, which is sad. But on the other hand, we would gain a tight, comprehensive list of articles about traveling in Massachusetts. Here is a quick idea of what the reorg could look like. Keep in mind! These groupings only sort of reflect the actual boundaries. This is more to help a traveller than get the lines right for residents. Also the lists of cities are extremely helpful and I would recommend copying them to their regions respective 'talk' pages so future editors know where to put listings.

Greater Boston (region)
 * Boston (huge city)
 * Boston Metro (small city/region)
 * including: Arlington, Belmont, Burlington, Chelsea, Dedham, Everett, Malden, Medford, Melrose, Milton, Needham, Quincy, Reading, Revere, Saugus, Stoneham, Wakefield, Waltham, Watertown, Wellesley, Weston, Winchester, Winthrop, Woburn

 * Boston Harbor Islands (park)
 * Brookline (small city)
 * Cambridge (small city)
 * Newton (small city)
 * Somerville (small city)

Eastern Mass (region)
 * Merrimack Valley (small city/region)
 * including: Amesbury, Andover, Ashby, Billerica, Chelmsford, Dracut, Dunstable, Groton, Groveland, Haverhill, Lawrence, Littleton, Merrimac, Methuen, North Andover, North Reading, Pepperell, Stow, Tewksbury, Townsend, Tyngsborough, West Newbury, Westford, Wilmington

 * North Shore (small city/region)
 * including: Beverly, Boxford, Danvers, Essex, Georgetown, Hamilton, Ipswich, Lynn, Lynnfield, Marblehead, Manchester-by-the-Sea, Middleton, Nahant, Newbury, Peabody, Rowley, Salisbury, Swampscott, Topsfield, Wenham

 * Glouster/Rockport (small city)
 * Lowell (small city)
 * Newburyport (small city)
 * Salem (small city)
 * Bristol-Norfolk (small city/region)
 * including: Attleboro, Berkley, Dighton, Easton, Mansfield, North Attleborough, Norton, Raynham, Rehoboth, Taunton, Bellingham, Canton, Dover, Foxborough, Franklin, Medfield, Medway, Millis, Norfolk, Norwood, Sharon, Stoughton, Walpole, Westwood, Wrentham

 * South Shore (small city/region)
 * including: Abington, Avon, Braintree, Bridgewater, Brockton, Carver, Cohasset, Duxbury, East Bridgewater, Halifax, Hanover, Hanson, Hingham, Holbrook, Hull, Kingston, Marshfield, Middleborough, Norwell, Pembroke, Plympton, Randolph, Rockland, Scituate, West Bridgewater, Whitman, Weymouth

 * South Coast (small city/region)
 * including: Acushnet, Fairhaven, Freetown, Dartmouth, Lakeville, Marion, Mattapoisett, Plainville, Rochester, Seekonk, Somerset, Swansea, Wareham, Westport

 * Plymouth (small city)
 * Fall River (small city)
 * New Bedford (small city)

Cape Cod and the Islands (region)
 * Cape Cod National Seashore (park)
 * Outer Cape (small city/region)
 * includes: Eastham, Wellfleet, Truro, Harwich, Brewster, Chatham, Orleans

 * Lower Cape (small city/region)
 * includes: Barnstable, Hyannis, Dennis, Yarmouth, Bourne, Sandwich, Falmouth, Woods Hole, Mashpee

 * Martha's Vineyard (small city/region)
 * including: Aquinnah, Chilmark, Edgartown, Oak Bluffs, Tisbury, West Tisbury

 * Nantucket (small city/region)
 * Provincetown (small city)
 * Elizabeth Islands (small city/region)
 * includes: Gosnold

Central Mass (region)
 * Concord/Lexington (small city)
 * Framingham/Natick (small city)
 * Sturbridge (small city)
 * Worcester (small city)
 * MetroWest (small city/region)
 * includes: Acton, Ashland, Bedford, Carlisle, Holliston, Hopkinton, Lincoln, Maynard, Milford, Sherborn, Sudbury, Wayland

 * Quabbin (small city/region)
 * includes: Barre, Belchertown, Hardwick, Hubbardston, New Braintree, New Salem, Oakham, Palmer, Pelham, Petersham, Rutland, Ware

 * North County (small city/region)
 * includes: Ashburnham, Athol, Ayer, Berlin, Bolton, Boxborough, Boylston, Clinton, Fitchburg, Devens, Gardner, Harvard, Hudson, Lancaster, Leominster, Lunenburg, Marlborough, Northborough, Phillipston, Princeton, Royalston, Shirley, Sterling, Templeton, Westminster, Winchendon

 * South County (small city/region)
 * includes: Auburn, Charlton, Dudley, Oxford, Southbridge, Webster, Blackstone, Douglas, Grafton, Holden, Hopedale, Leicester, Mendon, Millbury, Millville, Northbridge, Paxton, Shrewsbury, Spencer, Sutton, Upton, Uxbridge, West Boylston

 * The Brookfields (small city/region)
 * includes: Brookfield, East Brookfield, North Brookfield, West Brookfield, Warren

 * The Boroughs
 * includes: Westborough, Northborough, Southborough

Western Mass (region)
 * The Berkshires (small city/region)
 * includes: Adams, Alford, Becket, Cheshire, Clarksburg, Dalton, Egremont, Florida, Great Barrington, Hancock, Hinsdale, Lanesborough, Lee, Lenox, Monterey, Mount Washington, New Ashford, New Marlborough, North Adams, Otis, Peru, Richmond, Sandisfield, Savoy, Sheffield, Stockbridge, Tyringham, Washington, West Stockbridge, Williamstown, Windsor

 * Pioneer Valley (small city/region)
 * includes: Ashfield, Bernardston, Buckland, Charlemont, Chesterfield, Colrain, Conway, Cummington, Deerfield, East Longmeadow, Easthampton, Erving, Gill, Greenfield, Goshen, Granby, Granville, Hatfield, Hawley, Heath, Northfield, Shelburne, Hadley, Plainfield, South Hadley, Southampton, Agawam, Blandford, Brimfield, Chester, Chicopee, Hampden, Holland, Holyoke, Huntington, Leverett, Leyden, Longmeadow, Ludlow, Middlefield, Monson, Monroe, Montague, Montgomery, Northampton, Orange, Rowe, Russell, Shutesbury, Southwick, West Springfield, Sunderland, Tolland, Wales, Warwick, Wendell, Westfield, Westhampton, Whately, Wilbraham, Williamsburg, Worthington

 * Northhampton/Amherst (small city)
 * Springfield (small city)
 * Pittsfield (small city)

Itineraries:
 * Mohawk Trail
 * Appalachian Trail
 * Freedom Trail

Non-town pages to be absorbed:
 * Blackstone Valley - Combine with South County
 * Gosnold - Combine with Elizabeth Islands.
 * Mid Cape - Combine with Lower Cape
 * Upper Cape - Combine with Outer Cape
 * Worcester Hills - Combine with Quabbin and South County

So, as an example, the Quincy page would redirect to the Greater Boston page, and the listing for Adams National Historical Park would be moved there as well. Only a few restaurants would be copied over, and would live next to some restaurants copied from Watertown for example. If a region page becomes unwieldy, we can create a small city page and copy the relevant info. The list is erring on the side of fewer articles, because right now there is a lot of duplication, so it's hard to estimate how much content each article will have in the end.

Just throwing this out there, there has been a lot of great work here already, and I'm sure this idea breaks several wikivoyage standards I have yet to learn. Looks like Godsendlemiwinks has a lot of great knowledge about the state, wondering how they feel about this! Thanks again. --ButteBag (talk) 17:03, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I don't understand what you mean. Neither Medford nor Wayland is mentioned anywhere in this article, so I can't see how information about them would be cluttering the page. Your proposal would seem to be suggesting placing all listings in region articles, but that seems like a very bad idea. We'd have to seriously reduce the resolution of our coverage in order to keep article sizes reasonable. Remember, our target audience is not just a couple from the Netherlands looking to get a broad feel of Massachusetts but also the visitor to Worcester who wants to know where to stay and where to get a bite to eat. Powers (talk) 21:24, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Sorry, the vagaries of text only communication and all. I am responding to not just the Massachusetts page (which is very good), but to the organization of all of its child pages. For example Five_College_area. How is that a child of Hampshire_County which is in turn a child of Pioneer_Valley? Is there really enough content to support that decision? Do we really need to chop Cape_Cod up into 4 regions? Why is Acushnet deserving of its own page? Yes, Freetown_(Massachusetts) has some information, but is any of it really helpful to travelers? In my opinion, there are too many pages that will never have a beautiful amount of content. I just feel like it is a bummer when you click on a link to an article and there isn't much there. Clearly cities with enough content like Worcester_(Massachusetts) would continue to have pages. My idea was to reduce the number of town and sub-region pages, and to bubble that information up and capture it in the region pages instead. It is just an idea. Many sub pages have only a few sentences of unique content. It feels like we did an amazing job creating a hierarchical taxonomy of all areas of Massachusetts. Like truly outstanding. I am not convinced, however, this is the most helpful structure for travelers. --ButteBag (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Ok, went and clicked on every one of the 400+ pages(!) we currently have for Massachusetts. There is a lot of duplicated information and barebones stub pages. Updated the hierarchy above to reflect my hastily formed opinion of what should and should not be a page. I'm sure it's wrong. Maybe this doesn't even reflect the goals of wikivoyage, I don't know. I do think, however, that considering removing 50% of the articles here is not unreasonable. --ButteBag (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Ok ok, went back and re-read a bunch of guidelines and conversations scattered around here. The newly newly updated list above tries to better conform to Wikivoyage guidelines. Here is the proposal. Consolidate the 7 current regions of Massachusetts to 5. Some current sub-districts are currently written as 'regions', but should instead be rewritten as 'small city' pages. Defined in the other divisions geography guidelines. I have labeled these as (small city/region) above. With this idea 'Greater Boston' continues to be a region page, while a new page 'Boston Metro' would hold all the listings from Quincy, Watertown, etc. I just arbitrarily decided Newton has (or could have) enough content to stand on its own. The reason for doing this would be to reduce duplication of information, and consolidate hundreds of small city pages into a more manageable number. Hopefully, this would lead to Wikivoyage having articles that are higher quality and more useful. --ButteBag (talk) 20:00, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Added all towns proposed to be incorporated in each article. It's easy to argue a town belongs in a different article, and that's the idea. Keep splitting off towns into smaller and smaller clusters as we get more information about them. I think this would reduce confusion, increase coverage, and create stronger articles. --ButteBag (talk) 21:14, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I have to admit I'm not personally a fan of the large-rural-region-with-listings paradigm that was pioneered with Rural Montgomery County. But I may be an outlier. I'd like to see some additional perspectives on this, as I don't know of any other area where we've included rural regions so systematically as this proposal would. Powers (talk) 14:40, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

 * I'd love to see other viewpoints on how to handle this. The "large-rural-region-with-listings" idea is pretty good but not perfect. The negative to it (IMHO) is you will wind up with "donut" maps. (In Massachusetts anyway.) For example "Pioneer Valley" might be all the towns surrounding Amherst, and Amherst itself will have a lot of content and geographically sit in the center. So the "Pioneer Valley" map would have a dark spot in the middle, if that makes sense, which could be weird? Have you seen other ways of handling this Powers? Our sister state Maine is mostly rural and looks like it has similar problems: Lakes_and_Mountains. (Lots of low information pages.) --ButteBag (talk) 15:19, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I would first merge a number of small article into the closest large town, or based on where hotels and B&B are concentrated. Then aim to have one region level below the state, probably by splitting some of the existing ones, based on number of article. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Example of what could be merged --Traveler100 (talk) 19:51, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see what you are saying. Thanks! I'm also noticing I've bitten off way more than I can chew with this. I'm probably going to keep chipping away at the Boston pages and kind of neglect the Massachusetts level pages for now. Time constraints, you know. I do have some knowledge of the area so please ping me if you have any questions. I also love maps so ping me again once the regions settle down and I can add the mapframe and mapmask, or any custom maps to the articles. --ButteBag (talk) 16:04, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with the idea that not all towns in MA deserve articles. There are hundreds of towns most of which are less than 20 square miles and many of which are considerably smaller, stemming from pre-colonial times when people had to walk to the town hall.  This situation doesn't exist outside of New England and a few other northeastern states since counties are the lowest comprehensive governmental jurisdiction and there is plenty of stuff that isn't in an incorporated city or town.  I don't think we should use a historical anachronism for one part of the country to justify creating hundreds of articles for towns in Massachusetts that might only have 1 or 2 things to list per article, just because they are separate legal entities.  I think adding suburb listings to city articles is probably fine for generally uninteresting suburbs (i.e. Shrewsbury), but still think groupings of rural towns makes more sense than adding all listings for a region to the main city articles.  The Brookfields for example, are in the same county as Worcester, MA, but it would take you about half an hour to get to them by car from the city.  Anyone who visits Worcester without a car (perfectly feasible) would find listings from the Brookfields confusing since they cannot get there without a private vehicle, unlike the rest of the stuff in the article.  Anyone who just wants to go the Brookfields would find listing their attractions in the Worcester article confusing since there is no reason to go through Worcester to get to them.  Breaking up an area that has relatively few attractions and is smaller in area than many non-New England cities (Seattle, for example) doesn't seem useful from a travelers perspective. Godsendlemiwinks (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Massachusetts Reorg?
Hello! I am a masochist and I'm trying to update the Massachusetts pages. If you have the time, please spend a minute clicking around how the Massachusetts hierarchy is presented now. There are a lot of "lost" and "empty" pages. I'm hoping to leverage work done by previous Wikivoyagers in a more cohesive way. But maybe I am barking up the wrong tree entirely? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! --ButteBag (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the idea is great, but I fear I won't be able to be of much assistance. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * yes there are a good number of almost empty articles, frustration for a reader clicking around. Having just done a similar task for Ohio I would suggest first merging cities that do not have any sleep or see entries with nearby towns. Once this is done, what regions make sense should be clearer. To help identify merge-able articles use the bottom row of the second table at Massachusetts Expedition (just created this). Need to then check if there are hotels in these towns/villages (google map, tripadviser, etc.), if not check nearby destinations using the map (icon top left) for combination candidates. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:34, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Thinking about updating the map
Just throwing this here as a thoughtstarter. Current map is pretty bad imho. Looks like WV regions mostly correspond to MA counties, except for Middlesex and Norfolk which need to be broken up. I think it would also make sense to replace Northeast Massachusetts and Southeast Massachusetts with a New Eastern Massachusetts Region. We could put all the subregions under NEMA and SEMA under the new EMA, along with the Greater Boston subregion. If anyone thinks this is cool, I can take the time to place the missing towns on this map as they exist today in the hierarchy.

--- ==Regions==

---

Ok, had a go pasting some townshapes in here and looking at the way we have things organized now, I'll propose creating a new region Eastern Massachusetts, moving all sub-regions from NEMA and SEMA there. We should also move MetroWest from Central Massachusetts into Eastern Massachusetts. This will give us a few benefits: ButteBag (talk) 18:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * We can preserve 99% of all sub-districting work already done.
 * More intuitive content breakdown structure. (Going by county helps travellers at this level, it will also be easier for editors to find which town lives under what sub-region.)
 * The "tough" decisions (town X in sub-region Y) will all be handled in one article. The map on Eastern MA can show town-by-town what belongs where.
 * Use MA county mapshapes to improve map quality on Massachusetts and all sub-regions (except the new Eastern MA one).

 * I have to say that I'm not a fan of dividing regions into merely west, center, and east. That said, I trust your judgment given your local knowledge and I will support your proposal.
 * One question to which I may have missed the answer: would Cape Cod be merged into the east region as well, or would it remain independent? Boston?
 * The static map would likely need updates. The SVG file is on Commons. Do you know how to edit static maps? If not, I know how.
 * Thank you for your continued commitment to contributing to this region! --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 18:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply @SelfieCity! I've just finished matching our current breadcrumb hierarchy to my User:ButteBag/Eastern Massachusetts page. Can other people see that? Sorry if the text above was a little confusing, here's a list of I guess what I'm proposing.
 * merge Southeast Massachusetts and Northeast Massachusetts into Eastern Massachusetts. There is basically no content on either of those pages.
 * move MetroWest and Greater Boston under Eastern Massachusetts.
 * some minor horse trading of a few small towns: Ashby and Shirley to Merrimack Valley. Hudson and Marlborough to MetroWest. And Boroughs and Milford to Blackstone Valley.
 * If we do that than the Massachusetts level map can be dynamic and built from county level shapefiles. This would be a great improvement to the current static map. I would not touch cape cod, berkshires, pioneer valley, or central MA regions. Mass. sub-regions are somewhat arbitrary (imho) and it is very unlikely they will be expanded upon. Another benefit is making it easier to see what town is in what subregion. Most of the state's population is in the east, so it follows this new page would have the most "stuff". That's all I got, have a great weekend! Thanks again! ButteBag (talk) 19:18, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Also: just quickly updated the dynamic map above so you can see better how it would work in relationship to User:ButteBag/Eastern Massachusetts. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 19:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I understand this better now. I'm in full support! --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks yourself! I've just updated the map again, this time with how the new MA regions list would look. I def think this is an improvement and I can move it into the main article after a few days if no one objects. Thanks again for your help! ButteBag (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Banner alternates

Was just poking around a bit and found these. If no one likes them for the Massachusetts page, I've suggested alt articles where they could go. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Cheshire doesn't have a custom pagebanner, so that should be added right away. I support changing the banners in the other articles, too, though the most usual procedure would be to propose replacement banners on the talk pages of those articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I asked my dad for some photos of MA he took last month to see what Mass is like (on top of what I already know). I think the Falmouth banner suits the article better. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 23:30, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry I made it confusing Ikan Kekek! I've removed two banners, and made the format here clearer. I would at least go with #1, same as current but with better colors and definition. But let's see if there are other opinions. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 16:21, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I think I slightly prefer banner 1 to banner 6, so my vote is for banner 1 to replace the current banner. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:54, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ updated with banner 1. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 15:39, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Updates to cities/other destinations?
Here's my proposed lists. I've switched Cambridge for Provincetown, because at this level it feels the same as Boston. The ODs I've jumbled around a bit more, not sure if I've fudged anything too much. Tried to keep the spirit of urban and rural, representing the best in each region, and also what tourists might have in mind about MA. Thanks!

Remove Add
 * — home to Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
 * — Much has changed since the Pilgrims arrived in 1620, but the beauty of the beaches, ocean and sealife have remained constant. An artist colony since at least 1940, it's also a wildly popular LGBTQ+ destination.

Remove Add
 * — Where you can remove yourself from civilization without having to give up good cell phone reception.
 * — a rural area in Central Massachusetts filled with antique shops, farms & orchards, and beautiful scenery.
 * — a major amusement park.
 * — where there is a recreated colonial village.
 * — the summer home of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
 * — Founded by Puritans in 1634, this Ivy League granddaddy is perhaps the most prestigious in the world. An endowment north of $50 billion keeps numerous museums, libraries, and artifacts available for visitors to enjoy.
 * — At over 250,000 square feet, this is one of the largest centers for the arts in the United States. Well known for featuring a variety of artists producing immersive and evocative pieces.
 * — Stroll around this National Historic Landmark, where a dozen or so historic house-museums are laid out along a street plan unchanged since the 1690s.
 * — Created in the 1930s by damming the Swift River and flooding four towns, today the epically rural Quabbin provides hundreds of miles of trails and is home to a variety of wildlife including bald eagles.
 * — This nutrient rich ocean area makes for one of the best whale watching opportunities in the world. A wide diversity of species come here to feed during the summer months.

ButteBag (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

 * I've just plunged forward and added updated copy to the pre-existing items. Hopefully this makes more sense to people. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 21:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I just replaced Cambridge with Provincetown. Cambridge and Boston are very similar at this level, and the parent page has Provincetown in the cities list, so the consistency makes sense to me. There didn't seem to be much interest, but please revert if you disagree. ButteBag (talk) 13:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry to see this late. I don't agree with excluding Cambridge. Aren't any of the other currently-listed cities less interesting than Cambridge? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmmm, I don't know I'd have to think about it more. We would probably lose some regional representation if that matters. Maybe we could use The Longfellow House NHS or Harvard Uni or something like that to squeeze it in as an OD? ButteBag (talk) 13:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ikan Kekek I added Harvard as an OD, I feel like that section needs the most help anyway. Hope you're well, and your holidays are happy! ButteBag (talk) 13:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh right and if we keep Cambridge an OD it will fit nicely into Eastern Massachusetts as well. ButteBag (talk) 13:35, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * As you wish. I just checked New York (state), and Yonkers is not in the Cities section although it's the 3rd most populous city in the state, presumably for the same reason you're wanting to exclude Cambridge from Massachusetts. However, I think Cambridge is a way more touristy city than Yonkers. Most visitors to New York City never go to Yonkers, whereas few visitors to Boston skip going to Harvard Square. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ikan Kekek, yep, agreed, and I've certainly never been to Yonkers lol! I guess we could cut Lowell? That would better preserve the geographic diversity I guess. Do you have any opinions on the OD list? I'm struggling with that one. Brookfields seem boring, six flags seems crassly commercial, old sturbridge is ok--but we already have one living history museum listed, and tanglewood is cool but very seasonal. Thanks! ButteBag (talk) 13:28, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * How about some islands like Nantucket? I'm not sure what else to put there. I thought of Mt. Greylock. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! We have Nantucket already, but Mt Greylock's a good idea. If you scroll up a little I wrote out some other options. Harvard U, Mass moca, deerfield, quabbin, and stellwagen bank. I know we have some wiggle room with ODs but wasn't sure how much. Thanks again! ButteBag (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the main page with the OD list above. Added Harvard U, as Ikan expressed an interest in keeping Cambridge but I was feeling like it's too close to Boston at this level. I think Old Deerfield is the weakest OD listing now. Not sure if we're allowed to list Stellwagen since it's in the ocean, but apparently whale watching is very popular here (I've never done it). ButteBag (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Massachusetts


text:
Talk:Mataura

The original version of this article was copied from WikiPedia:Mataura. -- (WT-en) Huttite 06:30, 29 Mar 2005 (EST)

title: Talk:Mataura


text:
Talk:Matheran

Can somebody help me in formatting the content here ?

Another location that does not allow motor vehicles is Mackinaw Island, Michigan USA.

The Environment Tax ( Entry Tax ) per person is now Rs. 40/-- w.e.f. May 1, 2012

title: Talk:Matheran


text:
Talk:Matlock

Matlock
There is a town called Matlock in Derbyshire. I've never been there, but I know it bears no relation to this farrago of fantasy and b/s.(WT-en) Jnich99 05:09, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep and delete erroneous info. (WT-en) WindHorse 05:34, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep all of the info - its all valid and useable info —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 203.9.151.30 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 2008 July 30
 * In that case, perhaps you could provide a link to the Matlock International Airport, for starters? (WT-en) LtPowers 08:53, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Matlock International Airport (MIA) is currently updating its communication streams. There will be a relaunch of the website in the coming weeks. Please try and keep your emotions under-wraps... i know its an exciting time for everyone involved with MIA. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 203.9.151.30 (talk • contribs)
 * Uh-huh. Delete and start over.  We don't even need this stuff in the page history.  (WT-en) LtPowers 08:53, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Delete. Amusing in places but this is not the place for it. At least this might be the catalyst for a real article about Matlock, which I believe is an interesting spa town. (WT-en) Tarr3n 10:03, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * did you really find it amusing? maybe i should get a career in comedy writing... —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 203.9.151.30 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 2008 August 3
 * So, anonymous editor 203.9.151.30, how about you turn that talent to writing a real destination guide to Matlock? It does look like an interesting spa town. (WT-en) JimDeLaHunt 02:59, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
 * to be honest, the guide is pretty much accurate... there are a few minor discrepancies... they are all minor tho. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 203.9.151.30 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 2008 August 6
 * To be honest, "minor discrepancies" is stretching it to describe statements and references such as "oldest conurbation in England", "earwax in the atmosphere", "Cherbourg to Maidstone ferry", "Matlock International Airport" and the "M1.5" motorway. Enough... joke's over, we've all had a laugh, so maybe you can either make the changes required to turn this into a proper guide, or it should be deleted at the end of the month. (WT-en) Jnich99 10:52, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep, this portrays an accurate picture of Matlock although some information on the former site of Europe's largest subterranean brothel would also be nice.
 * Keep the page as there is a real town by the name of Matlock. Delete the info(WT-en) WindHorse 23:18, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * OK, I've made a start.... (WT-en) Jnich99 05:18, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

title: Talk:Matlock


text:
Talk:Matsu

Travel limitations?
Some years back, a Taiwan friend living in Fuzhou told me that, even though there was a boat to Matsu, it was banned to foreigners and even for him it was easier to travel via Hong Kong than to deal with the heavy security on militarily sensitive Matsu. Some of that has changed by now, but how much?

More recently, a South African friend tried to take the Mawei-Matsu boat, but was stopped before boarding. He was told there's a list of 15 countries allowed on the route, and SA is not on it. Can we get that list? I know at least Americans, Kiwis and Brits are allowed on the Xiamen-Jinmen boat, but don't know who else, or if the two routes might have different rules. (WT-en) Pashley 01:12, 27 March 2011 (EDT)

Political status of Matsu
Since someone made an edit on this, I thought I'd clarify this. The ROC on paper claims all of China as its territory, including all of Fujian province, and considers the PRC to be an illegitimate government, so Matsu is still part of Fujian province in the ROC constitution. So from the ROC perspective, most of Fujian is illegally occupied by an illegitimate government, while Matsu and Kinmen are the only parts of Fujian that are governed by the legitimate government of China. That is why many locals don't identify as Taiwanese; before the Chinese Civil War, it was part of Fujian province, and Taiwan was (and still is on paper) considered to be another province. The dog2 (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matsu


text:
Talk:Matsumoto

Note that Matsumoto has an airport: travel time to downtown is roughly 20 minutes (if I recall correctly).

title: Talk:Matsumoto


text:
Talk:Matsuyama

LOVE
Someone showed it to me this week. , ありがとう　wikivoyageers! 嬉しい！！！ (WT-en) Ojousama 03:17, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

 * どういたしまして. Now 頑張って on the next article! (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:35, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

Exhaustion
Can someone look at this thing and see if it's guide material yet? I need a pat on the head or somethin.

(WT-en) Ojousama 22:00, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

 * I'd call it that. We could turn it into a star if map-making ever catches your fancy. My only complaint is that I'm now embarrassed for having missed so much when I went to Matsuyama! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:28, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

Thanks again. (WT-en) Ojousama 07:55, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
 * touched!* Thanks. Like I said previously, while I have serious ideas for this page (emergency info, tourist information centers, language, festivals....maps!), I'm very unsure whether I'll have the motivation once I leave. We'll see...

Cheese
It's what my brain is.

(WT-en) Ojousama 02:42, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

AND...what's up with the categorization of Matsuyama? It changes length everyday. Maybe it's a bug. huh.

Oh, and for future generations, I only write this thing at work where there isn't much else to do, so since I'm getting the hell outta here, there's no garantee that it'll go anywhere father than where it stop on Thursday.

Want to write a novel? Become an English teacher in Japan. Sōseki: The First ALT! (WT-en) Ojousama 03:21, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Tiddied up the Dōgo Onsen spiel, but the indent is still gone for the different baths. I wonder if it's the info blurb, but that's too cute to cut (assuming that's what it actually says...I don't like Dōgo enough to patronize and check myself).

Hotels were easy enough. Done. More or less. I'll have to add Hotel Okudōgo and my favorite Love Hotel, Nankai, but It's hard to comment on such things when you live there... Haha, UNLESS you are talking about only Love Hotels...

Added actual crap you should buy under Buy, but "sadly", I'm not sure if I can write info for shops to buy them. It's probably not necessary because of the proliferation of such...crap. :D Granted, the Hime Daruma are darling.

I DREAD doing Eat because I can think of so many places AND that's the other major section I lost a lot of writing on. I threw away my notes, too. f'in piece of sh!t usb drive... I'm almost certain I can just find the info online, but I'd still have to interview staff for some of the info... Can I wing it? Hmmm...

(WT-en) Ojousama 03:16, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

I know you're all attached to your Dogo Onsen spiel, but it needs updating, cleaning up and shortening to fit the format and tone of the rest of the article. Being so concerned about following styles and rules and making it printer-friendly, I'm sure you can understand that.

(WT-en) Ojousama 00:50, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Go right ahead -- it's actually lifted word for word from an Everything2 entry I wrote back in the days when wikis didn't roam the earth yet. I wouldn't necessarily try to cram it into a single Do block though, because it's kinda big... (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:08, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

I'd like to make sub headings under the Do block, but they end up screwing with the rest of the page.... Bah. (WT-en) Ojousama 02:21, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Yeah, putting complex formatting inside listing blocks doesn't really work. (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:33, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

Links to Wikipedia

 * One more thing: we don't usually do Wikipedia links for individual attractions or people, it's better to just summarize who/what they are inline. Links don't work too well if you only have a printout! (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:05, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

And who cares about that? "Usually" means just that. Usually. I guess this article will be UNusually convenient for the ignorant. Anyways, I suppose we'll just edit until one of us dies, because I rather like the idea that people who want to know more can simply click and not waste time searching and misspelling important names. Honestly. Why must someone want to take their boredom out at the same time on the same article?

 * The Project:Links to Wikipedia guideline cares about that. Remember, one of the goals of Wikivoyage is to produce printed travel guides, and just linking to Wikipedia for everything is a) useless offline and b) lazy, because it discourages people from actually describing the thing.  What was the last time you saw a Wikipedia link in Lonely Planet? (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:34, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Forgot about all this. Lonely Planet's a different kind of media... (although I guess you're refering to the website, which I don't use, so I don't know.) Besides, I didn't say I'd link to everything on wiki. If there's a useful page and I find it, of course I'd link to it. Sadly, not many people care to write exclusively about these two (or I haven't found viable online sources). Bah, maybe one day... (WT-en) Ojousama 02:57, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

 * No, the whole point here is that Wikivoyage will also, some day, make the leap to printed guides. This has guided a lot of design decisions on the site: a big one is that we prefer long cohesive articles instead of scattering everything about, and a small one is that we try to avoid excessive links to Wikipedia. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:26, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

 * What you're arguing for is to make this article UNusually lacking in information. If there's interesting information that useful to the typical traveler, we want it in the article.  That's a lot more convenient than telling people to go find the information for themselves.  But if you think this is completely wrong-headed, then I encourage you to make a proposal over on Project:Links to Wikipedia to have this policy changed for all of Wikivoyage.  I'm not convinced, but if you're able to build a consensus that we should be doing it differently, then you'll have the support of other Wikivoyage editors to do not only this article that way, but all of them. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 08:12, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps that'd be true, if I were to not put info in the following sections. But I did and that's the thing: the Understand part is just a primer, so that's why I didn't see the issue for a link (unless the problem is just that it was a wiki page, to which I respond with *shrug*). If I wrote a novel about a novelist there'd be little to put in the See and Do but addresses and directions. I both linked and explained, but whatever. :p I'm the idiot slaving over this crap. And for what? I don't even use wikivoyage.... (and I was feeling quite 'get the hell outta my face' then, so ignore the tone.) (WT-en) Ojousama 02:57, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

 * You're doing a pretty good job for an idiot. =P And I'm not going to object to WP links for eg. famous authors, because they don't have "official sites" and because you've already explained the basics in the guide. (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:26, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Naming
No, it's not how we name things. Please see Project:Article naming conventions. Basically, the Matsuyama in Ehime is way better known than the rest, so it gets "Matsuyama" and the rest are "Matsuyama (wherever)". (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:18, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

The point was getting rid of the needless disambiguation. Thanks for taking such an interest. I suppose. As long as people can use it. (Ojousama said that.)

Congratulations
Really nice read. Good work on this article :) (WT-en) Jamboo 18:02, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

Star Status
Just in case someone wants to work on this to make it a star, here are some things I've noticed (some from the previously slushed nomination):
 * Sleep Section: I still think a few more listings would be nice to bulk this up a bit. The city does have more.
 * Eat Section: Matsuyama is sizeable enough to hold enough listings to use our pricing subheadings ("Splurge", "Mid-Range", and "Budget"), so more options should be added.
 * The "Co-ed Almost-Naked Stair-Climbing" thing still doesn't strike me as strange for an onsen. Maybe I just have a different sense of humor.
 * See: The pilgrimage temples need more descriptions.
 * Do: The Zazen meditation should really state the temple name (Keitokuji) in the description, not just the address.
 * Do/Sleep: One of the most glaring ommissions from this article are the numerous onsen. Yes, Dogo Onsen is quite famous, but this is an onsen town. There are many other onsen that are certified affiliates of Dogo Onsen (which means they are able to draw from the same water source) and at these onsen you can actually stay overnight. Many Japanese will stay at one of these establishments where they have their own onsen and still walk down to Dogo Onsen. Also, there is an unofficial free footbath self-guided tour that seems like a nice thing for us to highlight as well.

If I think of more I'll add them, but these are what I notice at the moment. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:42, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matsuyama