text:
Talk:Jerusalem

Jerusalem Districts
Hi all, I've been investing some time lately in expanding this article (as well as the Israel's article). However, due to the masses of travel information, there is a necessity in partitioning it into districts. Some of the current districts are irrelevant, in my opinion. I would suggest to divide into: I'll be glad to get some feedback before starting to work. --Victor (talk) 17:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Old city (exists)
 * Ein Karem (exists)
 * Haredi area (exists, but offering name change, currently there is an empty link "Mea Shearim" and an article for the district Jerusalem/Chareidi)
 * City Center ("downtown" Jerusalem with Jaffa st., Ben Yehuda st. etc..)
 * National Quarter (where the 3 branches of the govrenment as well as the Hebrew University, Israel Museum and serveral other museums and more..)
 * What about East Jerusalem? -- Ypnypn (talk) 22:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
 * this division is very poor and it miss some area. you can look on w:en:Template:Neighborhoods of Jerusalem to see distribusion to 7 geographic areas. it maybe not the best distribution to district but it can be a base of distribution. יונה בנדלאק (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Hi!

 * Victor, User:Ypnypn, יונה בנדלאק; I’m curious, how’s it going with the districts? Jerusalem is on my list of cities split into districts but lacking a district map. I could draw a map once the districts are decided upon. However, I can't help with the districtification itself as I've never been there and don't know the city.

 * As of now, the District section has links to seven districts but three of those do still not exist. I’d like to remind you that if there is very little of interest to travelers (or no accommodation whatsoever) we usually merge a district with a neighboring one. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:08, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Anyone? ϒpsilon (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

 * So are we any closer to really defining districts in a way of use to visitors? Given that a listing that was recently created was deleted pointing to a district article, the issue seems to be not just an academic one to me... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:28, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

User:Ar2332, any input on the matter? You seem to know the city, what is your take? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:48, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * My thoughts on this are still developing. East, West, and Old City is a natural division. However, I get the sense that the West Jerusalem article is growing to the point where it will have to be divided into a City Center article and an "everything else" article. The Haredi article is awkward because it described a culture rather than a contiguous geographical area - maybe it should be merged into West Jerusalem, or given a specific area even if some Haredi neighborhoods are elsewhere. Finally, I'm still uncertain what to do with historic sites just outside the Old City. I planned to keep them in the Old City article, but now I think it may be better to put them in the East Jerusalem article. Ar2332 (talk) 06:46, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, here is my proposal for districts, plus a map. This basically corresponds to the current district pages as I have been editing them. Hobbitschuster, Ikan Kekek, others - thoughts? Jlm-districts.svg Ar2332 (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I've never been to Jerusalem, but I trust your judgment, and the map (including the light rail line and the green line) makes sense to me as far as I can tell... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:27, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

 * I have to defer to you, too. I was briefly in Jerusalem only once so far - in 1977! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?
Do you think too that this banner would would better than the existing one? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 15:45, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I prefer the existing one, more interesting to look at, more detail. Texugo (talk) 17:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Texugo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the existing one has the right focus: the history of the city. The bright lights make it look too much like Paris or New York. -- Ypnypn (talk) 21:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Possible page quote
If I haven't made my religious leanings clear already, suffice it to say, there is little love lost between me and faith, yet for Jerusalem, we might want to have a quote like Psalm 137, whose Verse 5 goes (in the King James Version) "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." - Which above everything else promises a visit to Jerusalem to be an unforgettable experience. Though I guess such a quote would probably inherently be problematic or even controversial. Thoughts? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could add Muslim and Jewish quotes as well, for balance? Ibaman (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The quote in question is part of the Hebrew bible and as such inherently Jewish. As for a Muslim quote, I frankly don't know any. It has also been put to music by - at the time - Hasidim Jewish singer Matisyahu from New York. Though arguably in an "uncommon" translation. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * “[the Sultan son of the Sultan son of the Sultan son of the Sultan, Suleyman] has decreed the construction of the wall he who has protected the home of Islam with his might and main and wiped out the tyranny of idols with his power and strength, he whom alone God has enabled to enslave the necks of kings in countries (far and wide) and deservedly acquire the throne of the Caliphate.”

This was inscribed in the walls of the old city by the time of their restoration by said Suleyman, The Magnificent, the famous Turkish sultan.

"I declare the glory of Him who transported His servant by night from the Masjid al Haram (the Mosque at Makkah) to the Masjid al Aksa (the Further Mosque) at Jerusalem"

This is from the Koran (xvii. 1).

Just for reference. If we research quotes from Crusaders, I'm sure we'll hit something interesting about the city. Let's keep discussing. Ibaman (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * I like the combination of the Biblical verse and the Qur'an verse. I'm not sure a specifically Christian verse is needed, as Christians accept the Tanakh as the Old Testament (yeah, there are a few differences, but this is basically accurate). By the way, I understand that a more accurate translation of the verse from Lamentations is "...let my right hand wither", but that's less poetic. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * "Let my right hand wither" was actually what I typed into a certain search engine and I was quite surprised that the "iconic" translation of the bible does not in fact use said words. If we do use more than one quotation (I personally value the worth of brevity), I guess a verse from the Hebrew bible is apt to represent most factions of Christianity and Judaism, as Ikan said. I knew that Jerusalem has a high importance in Islam, but up to this moment I thought it was not even mentioned in the Q'uran. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, beauty is a fine reason to use the King James version of this translation. But it is absolutely essential to represent Islam in the quotes. Offering only a Biblical quote would be seen (accurately, I think) as blatantly taking sides in the religious dispute over Jerusalem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 * You are of course right. And I would not find any offense in using more than one quote here. After all, it is a city that has a high degree of emotional importance to three major religions, and a quotation that represents two but not the third is imho ill advised. What would be a good Muslim quotation that is short and memorable enough to accompany the Christian/Jewish one? After all, I guess there is way less secular quotations on Jerusalem. And of what there is much will probably be "nationalist" in one sense or other. I feared this would be difficult, but two quotes are a workable compromise, don't you think? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, I do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Ibaman, can you cite a website for your Qur'an quote? Here is 27:2 at alislam.org:

 * Glory be to Him Who carried His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Distant Mosque, the environs of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our Signs. Surely, He alone is the Hearing, the Seeing.

 * No mention of Jerusalem. That is an interpretation. It is not in the text of that Qur'an verse. Incidentally, 27:1 is In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Does the Q'uran mention Jerusalem by name at all? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't think so, but Jerusalem is mentioned in hadiths. Here's a quote from one: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah (saw), tell us about Baitil-Maqdis.' He said: 'It is the land of the Resurrection and the Gathering. Go and pray there, for one prayer there is like one thousand prayers elsewhere.'" ("Baitil-Maqdis" is an old Arabic word for Jerusalem.) Wikipedia also claims there's a hadith that says "There is not a single inch in al-Quds (Jerusalem) where a Prophet has not prayed or an angel not stood", but I can't find another source to verify it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:46, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Both of those seem to me like excellent quotes for the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I like the prophets and angels one better. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

 * So do I, but I'm not certain whether it's actually a hadith or just something some Wikipedia editor made up. I couldn't find it after several minutes of searching on hadith websites. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Wasn't there once this Muslim scholar who went through all proposed Hadiths and threw out like... all of them except for a handful? And he was still left with hundreds upon hundreds Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Atarot Airport
Given that it closed down in 2001 - that is a decade and a half ago - should we even continue to mention it? It seems somewhat beside the point to me. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

 * I think the way it is mentioned is fine. Note the concluding sentence: "Some maps and signs still point to the closed airport." Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:28, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

 * When was that written, though? Is this still accurate? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing the signs are all or nearly all gone now (I haven't seen them while traveling nearby, but I also haven't specifically looked for them). But the runway is still drawn on maps, and the airport is still discussed on old websites (including a few discussions about reopening it). For these reasons, I think it's better to keep this section, so that people can know definitely that it's not an option. Ar2332 (talk) 19:37, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Ein Kerem
So Jerusalem/Ein Kerem is currently described as a "district" of "West Jerusalem" in its own article, but not listed among the districts here. Should we a) transform Ein Kerem into a city article b) merge it into one of the existing district articles c) add it to the district list and map d) do something else? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:42, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A) It's part of Jerusalem, so it should not be a separate city. B) I think there is too much information, and it's too much of a distinct destination, to be merged into West Jerusalem. C) It would be fine to make it into a fifth district within Jerusalem. D) Is the current setup, where it is "a district within a district", not acceptable? Ar2332 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The current setup is problematic as it is formally a district directly beneath Jerusalem but in its prose it is described as a district within West Jerusalem yet it is not mentioned or linked in either. This all makes it likely to be overlooked and for listings to be added to the wrong article. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:48, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * All right, I side with C). Ar2332 (talk) 18:50, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * One more vote for making it a fifth district. Looks like Ein Kerem is already categorized directly under Jerusalem. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:51, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, option C means editing the "districts" section and possibly the map as well. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:09, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

temple or Temple?
Should we uppercase the temple? Hobbitschuster (talk) 03:43, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ar2332 (talk) 07:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, definitely. There was only one, and it's always written in uppercase, often as the Holy Temple. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I was leaning towards uppercase, too. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:29, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Major undiscussed reorganization of districts
I am sorry, did I miss something? Why was the district layout changed in such a major way basically overnight? Where are the discussion and consensus backing that up? Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Agreed, there was no discussion or consensus, and IMO the districts are much less logical now. We should revert. Ar2332 (talk) 12:42, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

 * The whole set of articles are currently in the midst of a major expansion. Please let me finish adding all the new points of interest and information. We could discuss re-organization afterwards. Why isn't there a w:template:Inuse template on the English Wikivoyage ? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I propose you create the proposed articles in userspace and we can discuss them then. In general major changes that "make sense when you see them" are proposed by creating or outlining them in userapace. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:16, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Can you please make the edits in your user space? I don't want to destroy your work needlessly, but I think for now the mainspace articles need to be reverted until we come to some consensus. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:38, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand. I have already started doing so. I have a lot of knowledge about Jerusalem and I hope that we'll all be able to work together to create the good expanded travel articles this prominent city deserves. I must emphasis that I am not interested in showing any Israeli bias in the way the city in presented in the English Wikivoyage (and I fear other Wikivoyagers might assume that, although I hope most members would remember that my many good contributions to the English Wikivoyage over the years indicate that I have no other interest than creating good expanded articles) - in my opinion, the traveler's interest is above everything. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Embassies
For the record, I do not want to discuss the politics of any of this here and please let's keep our opinions out of this, but it is a fact relevant to travel that the US has moved its embassy to Jerusalem these days and this article indicates (which) other countries might follow. We should keep a close eye on this and update accordingly when needed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

 * If and when, yes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Jerusalem Light Rail
 { "type": "ExternalData", "service": "geoline", "ids": "Q403269", "properties": { "title": "Jerusalem Light Rail line", "description": "", "stroke": "#ff00ff", "stroke-width": 3 } } -- Matroc (talk) 00:26, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion wanted on Jerusalem
An IP editor has reverted my reversion of their edit. I think the IP editor is acting in good faith and there are some aspects of the edit that might merit salvaging, but I would very much like someone else to give their opinion and maybe propose a solution. Nota bene: This is not in the slightest about politics, thankfully. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * I completely agree with the IP editor. The other text is ungrammatical & uses "best", listed at Words to avoid. Pashley (talk) 11:48, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Yes, good edits except that "children's" requires an apostrophe every time and "post box" perhaps should be changed back to "mailbox", per American usage, unless Israeli usage is normally different in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * There's also "vents" instead of "events". Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * I agree with the IP's edits, except for "childrens" and "vents". I would leave "red British "pillar" post boxes" because they aren't "British "pillar" mail boxes", but use American spelling/usage elsewhere in the article. And yes, it is a relief to be able to discuss edits to the Jerusalem article without politics coming into it. Ground Zero (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * I'm surprised that the original revert was done with no edit summary. Uncommented reverts should, in my opinion, be done only when the reverted edit obviously was not a try at improving the article. Regardless of what version is better, this edit seems at least an honest try at improvement, with quite an amount of effort. --LPfi (talk) 12:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As an admin, I often fail to justify my edits and reversions, which always raises merited complaint, so I have been making conscious real efforts on always "saying something" in the summary. I remember having looked at this edit, and saying to myself, "humm, this anonymous user seems to have read Words to avoid actually, this edit may stand". Ibaman (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Immigrants
Per this edit summary: If your great-grandparents, grandparents or parents were immigrants, you are not. Does that put things in some perspective? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Of course, calling 19th century immigrants "immigrants" is a stretch – I was carried away, as the rhetoric is often used on the Bernadotte family of Sweden (a general of Napoleon was appointed king) – but most are more recent, often second-generation. However, the confusion between first, second and Nth generation immigrants (with all represented also among the Russians) is not the point.
 * The point is that calling the Russians "immigrants" is either redundant (if you know the reason) or just confusing (if you don't). It is also misleading, as there are several other groups of recent immigrants. If we want to do the distinction, we should explain it. But for the traveller, what's the importance of knowing that somebody who has lived in Jerusalem for 30 years is an "immigrant"? Are they more tied to their language than the "non-immigrant" French-speaking people? If so, tell that.
 * –LPfi (talk) 16:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jerusalem


text:
Talk:Jerusalem/Haredi

Haredi or Chareidi?
What is the currently favored transliteration? Whichever one it is, we should use it in the article's name and consistently in the text of the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Haredi, it seems. I agree. Ar2332 (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
 * In that case, all the spellings of the word in the article should be "Haredi", but right now, many are different. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Status
This article currently has no sleep listings and the one eat listing is not properly formatted and lacks some information. Yet the article is rated as "usable". Should this be changed? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:49, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Eat and sleep listings
Could we get more? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Jerusalem/Haredi


text:
Talk:Jerusalem/East

See my comment on the Old City talk page - some of the material on Old City that is outside the city walls clearly belongs here; should the Mount of Olives also go here or should it have its own section? (WT-en) Matruman 05:06, 27 January 2012 (EST)

title: Talk:Jerusalem/East


text:
Talk:Jerusalem/Old City

General
Bold textI have added some remarks to the Buy section about shops in the Christian quarters. The statements are based on my own personal observations and experience. Believe it or not, it is true.

Western Wall It is NOT the holiest site in Judaism. The area where the Dome of the Rock is today, is the holiest site is in Judaism - which is where the Temple once stood.

Temple Mount (Noble Sanctuary)
Calling it simply the Noble Sanctuary is offensive to most people in the world who see the place as important in any way. Any intellectually honest historian will say that the place was the site of the Jewish Temples before it was the third holiest site in Islam (which didn't even exist at the time of the temples). This is not to belittle its importance to Islam, but presenting it in that manner makes it seem primarily Muslim and only in a very minor way connected to Judaism (and by proxy, Christianity). Furthermore, the compound is separate from any of the quarters. If you've ever actually been to Jerusalem, it is plainly obvious. The whole thing is separate by a wall from the rest of the Old City... --User:Israelish 02 May 2006 17:12 (UTC).

 * It's in the Muslim Quarter map, and only Muslims are currently allowed into it, which 'right now for the traveller (our perspective, I'd like to remind you) makes it a part of the Muslim Quarter and, yes, primarily Muslim. All the current tourist attractions on the site are Muslim, while the Temple Mount -- with the notable exception of the separately covered Western Wall -- has passed into history.

 * As you seem to have considerable problems treating this subject fairly, I would suggest that you raise any issues you have here before you edit. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:40, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

 * I understand your aversion to the title, but Noble Sanctuary is the official current name of the location. While it is useful and necessary to touch on the historical significance of certain locations (which this article clearly does), the goal of the article is to provide current, reliable information to visitors.

 * Officially (and in spite of the wall), the site is classified with the Muslim Quarter, especially considering it is currently under Muslim control. All but one of the entrances to the mount open to the Muslim Quarter, and non-Muslims are only allowed access by a single gate above the Western Wall.  For ease of classification, most guide books will group it with Muslim Quarter "attractions". - (WT-en) Cybjorg 10:48, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

 * We document things as they appear today because that is what matters to the traveler -- and we have a policy, The traveller comes first. So if the signposts to the attraction say "Noble Sanctuary", or if "Noble Sanctuary" is what you need to say to locals to get directions, then that is what we use so the traveller can find the attraction.  "Official" viewpoints and "the way things ought to be" carry no weight when they are in opposition to the facts on the ground.  This is the same reasoning that leads us to call Jerusalem the capital of Israel -- because International Opinion is irrelevant when compared to the facts on the ground.  See also Transnistria. -- (WT-en) Colin 11:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

 * Incorrect - more signs say הר הבית than anything else. And geographically (depsite any map someone has posted on here - it is more in the Jewish quarter than in the Muslim Quarter. AND more than one entrance is allowed for non-Muslims, for example the one IN the muslim quarter is open Sun-Thurs 9:30-11 and 12-13:30 (or something along those hours). Furthermore - who is allowed in does not determine what quarter it is in (IT IS NO QUARTER), that argument holds no water - JEWS are the ones deciding who and when is allowed in anyway. Lastly, if something is blatantly false, it should be corrected, not discussed with the person who was mistaken in the first place. --(WT-en) Israelish 18:38, 03 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but we do actually like to discuss things that are in contention. If things were really that clear, we wouldn't be having this little chat, right? It's kinda hard to argue that there's nothing to argue about ;-) It sounds like you have a lot of good first-hand information, we just want to make sure that what folks read here is going to be directly helpful for visitors. Thanks (WT-en) Majnoona 14:12, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

 * If you can prove that the other gates are opened at specific times of the week, feel free to edit the hours of operation. However, these times tend to change on a whim, so maintaining current facts are important.  I verified the currently posted information a week ago. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:45, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

 * Also keep in mind that the information contained in the Western Wall section needs to relevantly relate to the Wall itself (with a brief explanation of its history) and not the history of the Temple Mount. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:49, 3 May 2006 (EDT)
 * I don't know whether this was different in 2006, but currently there are no signs or maps in English mentioning a "Noble Sanctuary" - only "Temple Mount", "Al-Aqsa Mosque" and "Dome of the Rock". Also, there are permanent visiting hours for non-Muslims. 93.172.151.196 21:49, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

"Noble Sanctuary" is not a name that is frequently used in maps or books in English. It is a literal translation of the Arabic "Haram esh-Sharif". The opening sentence in Wikipedia is:
 * The Temple Mount (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת, Har HaBáyit, "Mount of the House [of God, i.e. the Temple]"), known to Muslims as the Haram esh-Sharif (Arabic: الحرم الشريف, al-Ḥaram al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary", or الحرم القدسي الشريف, al-Ḥaram al-Qudsī al-Šarīf, "the Noble Sanctuary of Jerusalem")

The correct way to reference the place as both the Temple Mount and the Muslim Noble Sanctuary should be: "The Temple Mount / Haram esh-Sharif" and not "The Temple Mount / Noble Sanctuary". 93.172.151.196 21:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Cool. Does anyone object to making the change? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Western Wall
The Western Wall is not a remnant of the Temple. It was never a part of the Temple itself - but of the containing wall of the compound otherwise known as Temple Mount. Also, Jews ARE allowed into Temple Mount. --(WT-en) Israelish

 * I clarified that the Wall is part of the Temple Mount and not the temple itself, although I doubt this would have been taken out of context by too many people. The following sentance expounds that it is part of the retaining wall for the site.  Concerning Jews visiting the site, the only ones I know who are allowed are the ones guarding the gates.  Either way, the point being made is that Jews are not allowed to worship on the site, so they have reverted to praying at the wall for logical reasons. - (WT-en) Cybjorg 14:41, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

I have replaced 'Israeli occupation of' with 'Israel assumed control of the Old City in.' Perhaps the first version reflects the view of many, nonetheless it is POV, and an extremely contentious matter. —The preceding comment was added by ? (talk • contribs)

 * A propos the Western Wall: I like the map of the Old City, but I think it's somewhat important to replace the old-fashioned nickname "Wailing Wall" with "Western Wall." "Wailing Wall" is considered derogatory by some Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

 * I still feel this way. Would someone please edit the map accordingly? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Scope and overlap
I came to this and the other Jerusalem articles preparing for my second visit there, and find the scope of this one confusing. It rightly sets out the definition of the Old City as the bit within the walls, but then spends quite a significant part of the article discussing things that are outside it.

Some of this, e.g. The Garden Tomb should, to my mind, be in the East Jerusalem article, and the coverage in the Old City one may account for the stubbiness of the East Jerusalem one. However, the other big section is the Mount of Olives part. I'm not sure whether most people would see that as East Jerusalem or as a separate area in its own right. Given the 'traveller first' approach here, I would guess the latter?

Happy to 'plunge forward' and do some reordering, but am not up to creating a whole new entry based on a template if people agree the is what is needed for Mount of Olives.(WT-en) Matruman 08:30, 26 January 2012 (EST)

Destination of the month?
Would this article make Dotm? Is anything specific missing? /Yvwv (talk) 12:08, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jerusalem/Old City


text:
Talk:Jervis Bay

Nartional parks
I'm removing the links to Jervis Bay National Park and to Jervis Bay Marine Park: they aren't destinations in the Wikivoyage sense because I'm fairly sure that you can't sleep in either of them. No camping allowed in the former, the latter is water only. (WT-en) Hypatia 00:50, 7 Dec 2005 (EST)

Split article up and north not covered as it's a military range
The name "Jervis Bay" is too broad and some bits are 80 km away from the other by road. This is too big, and it would be more helpful to have north, central and territory. Booderee National Park can redirect to the territory as well as the village and the other things.

The northern section is also poorly covered here. And it being combined will mean the traveller will almost look and go to the southern and central sections, and not the hidden secrets in the north. And while the north may mostly be a military range, it's still open to tourists and is only occasionally closed for military exercises. And before you go, "military ranges aren't safe", erm, I've been to plenty of military ranges, training areas and units and it's fine, as long as you listen to the warnings and staff.

I do also have their safety booklet which also has a bit of history and information about this place and while I've never done any training here, I've visited here multiple times now.

Also, not distinctly separating them sort of violates WV:Be fair. And this is not just a Wikivoyage problem, this naming problem is also a reason why the north isn't visited a lot, including non-military ranges and towns like Currarong.

If we do split them, I'd like to keep this page as a disambg. page, and this hopefully should cover the north section better.

Please let me know about your opinions. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:22, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with most of your criticisms, but couldn't the northern section just be added here?-- Lively Ratification  (talk)  09:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a lot in the northern section, the booklet's is 16 pages and it's taken me 3 trips down here, and I've still not finished my journey. It's also a similar reason why you'd not combine Stratford and Maffra despite their close proximity. And people mostly ignore the northern section. There's also Currarong as well but it's usually not a search term that's common. All call it Jervis Bay, even up there. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:21, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The common way to split up an article is to expand it until it is very long, then the argument to split is easy to make. I don't know the area, so I am willing to defer to whatever SHB2000 and LivelyRatification think is best. Ground Zero (talk) 13:07, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Would 80km be considered long? It's short in Australian standards but it's long for a town. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:12, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I meant the article length. We do have destination articles that cover vast areas (like Arnhem Land) where that is what serves the traveller best. Unlike stubby beer bottles, stubby articles don't serve travellers well. They just create the impression that Wikivoyage doesn't have much information. If you're going to create new articles with lots of information about the destinations, I doubt you'll see any complaints. Ground Zero (talk) 13:48, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If all of it is called Jervis Bay, I think you could do one of two things:
 * 1) Add all the information to this page
 * 2) Make this page a disambiguation page, possibly linking to Northern and Southern Jervis Bay? 82.3.185.12 14:31, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't look to me like there's a need to split it. As GZ notes, we have plenty of wide geographical areas addressed in single articles. The current article looks to be in pretty good shape, and I don't see a need to make it two small ones. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is one of the biggest articles on the site, so it's probably fine as it is. 82.3.185.12 16:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Just glancing over it, I would agree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Destinations which span a wide area but don't have many listings as yet can be restructured into a rural article. See Rural area article template. Once the article gets long enough, it can be split into smaller city articles and the parent article can become a region. Likewise, if city articles become very long they can be split into smaller districts and the parent becomes a "huge city". Note that the amount of content is key. Some cities with very large populations are not huge cities while there are lesser populous cities that are huge. Even an island can be anything from a city, district, rural area, region, park or dive guide and it's often the type/amount of content that determines it rather than how the island is regarded in the real world. Gizza ( roam ) 23:29, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jervis Bay


text:
Talk:Jeseník

I placed this article here, these are historical facts and not some "art" protected by copyright, these facts are for everybody to share and not for someone to "own". Nobody made it up for to earn some money, this is common knowlegde that must be available to anynone. Whoever thinks else is a stupid...

 * Facts are fine, but the way those facts are put together to form a meaningful paragraph of information is art and that has copyright. Please feel free to add the facts again, but in your own words. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 11:27, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Jeseník


text:
Talk:Jesi

This page contained text copied from http://www.le-marche.com/Marche/html/jesi.htm. Someone copied info from the same site to Recanati a few weeks ago, and when I contacted the site owner they said that they hadn't added it on purpose and to please take it down. Extrapolating from that experience, it's doubtful that the author added this him/herself, so I've removed the copied text here, too. --(WT-en) Evan 13:38, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Under 'do' Jesi is described as a very boring town. I have added a bit about hte bus to Cingoli but http://www.le-marche.com/Marche/html/jesi.htm makes it seem most unlikely that most people would be bored. (WT-en) Davidx

title: Talk:Jesi


text:
Talk:Jet lag

Blanked Copyvio
I blanked out the copyvio on this page. I think this could become an article. Does anyone want to take it on? -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 12:13, 10 December 2006 (EST)
 * What about a redirect to Tips_for_flying? (WT-en) Maj 13:50, 10 December 2006 (EST)

 * Agreed - start the content out as part of a parent article (Tips for flying), and only split it out if it becomes large and complex. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:45, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Shilling for Boeing
As an Airbus guy myself, is it really necessary to elevate one specific plane above all others and claim it somehow magically makes jetlag go away? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm not particularly pro-Boing/Airbus, but manufacturers are paying more attention to jet lag and newer planes will have these features in the future. I flew a LAN Chile Boeing 787 recently on a short 3 hour flight and wonder what all the fuss is about, but maybe a longer flight would have been apparent. Long haul in a quiet roomy Airbus 380 makes a big difference to me, and I'd choose that aircraft in preference to others. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Yeah, but the specific info-box only mentions one single aircraft manufactured by one single company and presents it as the best thing sicne sliced bread. I don't think that groks with our mission. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Majority of planes flown in the United States (for example) are Boeing, and a tiny number of those are 787's. I don't read the advise as "fly Boeing, disregard Airbus." - do you? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * What would you say if for example our Tips for rail travel article said "Take the Siemens Class xyz as it has the best seats and lighting that lets you relax better than any other train" or something to that effect. Surely other plane manufacturers have some plane that they also market in similar ways, right? Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:50, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * If I book a seat ticket on any German ICE train service the experience is going to be very similar right? There would be no reason to choose a particular train model above another.
 * On aircraft however, if you are flying 12 hours then frankly the actual aircraft model will have a very real impact on comfort and jetlag. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:57, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * First of, you can spend a good many hours on German trains even without having to change trains once. Hamburg-Vienna takes 9:42 on a direct ICE. As for differences between the various ICE generations just compare this to this and if you want an even more glaring contrast, compare the newest bilevel Intercity trains to this - especially in light of passengers with more luggage than average... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Not sure where we are going with this, but anyway :) I did travel ICE from Munich to Berlin once, so I do get the long distance thing. The thing is, no matter how snazzy the ICE generation is, does it really impact you on that long journey if it is a new or old ICE? If so then it probably bears a mention.
 * Going back to planes, if a Boeing 787 really does help my jetlag better than a Boing 737 or an Airbus then definitely, I'm going to want to know that. I also imagine the upcoming Airbus models will also have these kind of Jetlag features. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:58, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

 * The newest (yet to be fully introduced) generation of ICE (ICE 4) will be the first to allow taking on bikes, so yes, it does affect travel. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Guide and FTT
What travel relevant content is still missing from the article and needs to be added before it could be promoted to Guide status and nominated for FTT? --ϒpsilon (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I think at the very least the shilling for the Boeing "Dreamliner" should be removed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * I would disagree, since the Boeing 787 does have actual features implemented to alleviate jetlag. Maybe it looks a bit like an advert, but frankly if I had to fly 12 hours in a Boeing 747 or a 787 I would probably choose the latter because of this. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Anything else? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:44, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

 * Two years later and we have many new voyagers on board. Can anyone come to think of something the article needs before it can be promoted to guide? Ypsilon (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

 * No objections, so I promoted the article to guide. If and when Jet lag is nominated for FTT, I guess people will find interest in the article and its possible shortcomings (though I still can't come to think of anything missing...). Ypsilon (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Early as 8 AM?
We say:
 * While office workers in countries such as China are used to start the day early as 8 AM, people in Spain and other parts of southern Europe have a justified reputation for late-night dining.

Should this be rephrased in some way? I don't feel Finland is a "country such as China", but normal office work hours are 8:00–16:00, waking up before seven (hours vary across trades, with start 7–9 normal). Could we pick two extreme countries for office hours, and perhaps two for dining, so that either feels odd regardless of the reader's habits? –LPfi (talk) 19:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Yeah. I'm not a morning person, but 8-4 isn't that unusual a work schedule in the U.S., either, I think (though not one I've ever had). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

 * As musician, I suppose your work schedules haven't been typical ones. Here a little to nine is quite usual for people with academic degree – often nominally eight but with flexible hours. Blue collar work often starts at seven. Doesn't matter much most of the year (unless you watch TV or otherwise are tied to schedules in your free time): in summer it is light regardless of when you wake up, and in winter mornings are dark, likewise. –LPfi (talk) 21:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

 * It's also the fact that I've very rarely worked full-time. For a couple of semesters while I was in graduate school, I used to open up a department of my grad school's library at 8:20 AM and started my shift at 8, but I was done for the day at 10. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Usually that as well in Australia, but it's sometimes 09:00 to 17:00 instead of 08-16. Of course, my time during a 108 day lockdown meant that I was much free (hence why you may have seen me editing at random times in the last few months), but now that everything's mostly back to normal, but for me, 08:00 seems usual. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jet lag


text:
Talk:Jhansi

Music in Jhansi
removed section

The topic "Buy" looks biased. The names of shops like

* Seth Bandhu, 26 Gopal Neekhra. near manik chowk chudi wali gali ke pass"

* Nidhi Textiles associate partners. All types of cloth material wholesale and a fixed price retail shop.

* Jhansi is the city who diserve capital of becomming new state Bundelkhand are one of the thousands shops in Jhansi, then why have these two been mentioned. Also it seems someone who is close to these shops / shop owners has deiberately added the two shops in here. I have tried to delete these entries but someone continously reuploads them.

"Glossary" from article
This wouldn't seem to belong in a city article, but I move it here in case someone can get some use out of it:

Glossary
Foreign tourists may encounter many Hindi words on this page. Such words are given in italics here. It is useful to acquaint with some common words while visiting Jhansi. A brief list of some words is given below with their meaning.
 * alha : a song form narrating the bravery of Bundela heroes.
 * aloo-tikki : vegetable cutlet, made of boiled potato.
 * bagh : garden.
 * chaat : Indian snack.
 * chai : tea, it is pronounced as 'chaay'.
 * chouraha : crossroads, square.
 * chowk : crossroads. Another meaning is- courtyard.
 * dahi : curd, yogurt
 * dhaba : roadside food joint selling local dishes.
 * doodh : milk.
 * kachori : deep-fried, stuffed, spicy pancake.
 * masala : spice, condiment.
 * mehandi : henna.
 * paneer : Indian cottage cheese.
 * paani : water.
 * rai : a folk dance form from Bundelkhand region.
 * rangoli : geometrical pattern drawn in front of the houses, preferably with white powder.
 * samosa : three-dimensinal triangle shaped snack with potato stuffing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jhansi


text:
Talk:Jiangsu

What region
This province is listed in Talk:China as being in the East (China). It's consequently linked from East (China), and not linked from South East (China). For now, I'm going to change the article itself back so it's consistent with the other articles. If there's a reason to move it from one to another, let's discuss here and on Talk:China. --(WT-en) Evan 10:39, 26 February 2007 (EST)

 * Yeah, you are right. I think it was originally listed under south east, but that got changed to east. As Shanghai is under east, then certainly Jiangsu should be in that category (WT-en) WindHorse 10:47, 26 February 2007 (EST)

Cities list
Normal Wikivoyage policy is to limit the cities list to nine of the most prominent. This had 14: * Nanjing - the capital of Jiangsu Province and capital to 6 Chinese Dynasties. * Changzhou * Huai'an   * Lianyungang * Nantong * Suqian * Suzhou - famous for its classic gardens, a major tourist destination * Taizhou * Wuxi * Xuzhou - Jiangsu's largest city * Yancheng * Yangzhou * Zhenjiang - a major tourist attraction for it`s temples and museums I'm cutting it to seven: * Nanjing - the capital of Jiangsu Province and capital to 6 Chinese Dynasties. * Changzhou * Suzhou - famous for its classic gardens, a major tourist destination * Wuxi * Xuzhou - Jiangsu's largest city * Yangzhou * Zhenjiang - a major tourist attraction for it`s temples and museums Others can be added back, but please comment here on reasons. (WT-en) Pashley 08:57, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Deleting cities from the city list in a region like Jiangsu which does not have any sub-regions implies that those deleted cities are not linked to at all, which is not good. The list of 14 cities comprised the prefecture level cities of Jiangsu, which are all major cities.  I suggest that we reinsert the deleted cities and instead consider to divide the provinces of China into subregions.  By the way, reading the  guidelines for regions I do not see a policy of limiting the list to nine, on the contrary it is stated that each city should be listed.  I would like to hear other thought on this.  For now, I will reinsert Nantong as it is a major city where we already have an article with some good content. (WT-en) ClausHansen 11:34, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Re-inserting for now them is OK with me if they're otherwise unlinked. In the long run, I'd like to see it cut to 9 per Project:Geographical_hierarchy. (WT-en) Pashley 23:48, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Every existing city article should be linked in from somewhere, so for time being, please add them back in. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:54, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Done. (WT-en) Pashley 06:48, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Changshu is not a prefecture-level city of Jiangsu.It's a county-level city fo Suzhou.

title: Talk:Jiangsu


text:
Talk:Jiayuguan

are you sure ticket is 120rmb? 3weeks ago it was 100rmb

title: Talk:Jiayuguan


text:
Talk:Jilin

This title of this article needs to be changed to Jilin (province) in order to avoid confusion with Jilin (city). Michael 11:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC).

title: Talk:Jilin


text:
Talk:Jimbaran

Changed status of this article to usable. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:40, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

Air traffic noise?
Is Jimbaran under flight paths or is there much air traffic noise?

Rationale for using a photo of a resort restaurant
Why does this photo not violate the prohibition on advertising images? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:34, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Was not intended to be advertising, I have not financial or professional connection to this resort or any hotel or tourist company for that matter. Just wanted to show what it looked like, thought that was informative but having now read Accommodation listings I see your point. Could say it is unique to the region with the building without walls. If you disagree feel free to remove. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I like the new caption and have no further objection. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:45, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Hotel rates in US dollars?
Aren't the rates really in Rupiah? I changed the key from dollars to Rupiah, but what about some of the listed hotel rates themselves? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Most probably Some are, but many of the swankier prices quote in USD (perhaps to conserve their plastic zeroes for the price board - grin). --W. Frankemailtalk 08:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems weird. I realize most people pay with a credit card, but I seriously doubt that their accounts aren't charged an exchange rate and commission if they are dollar-based accounts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jimbaran


text:
Talk:Jinan

July 2017
I'm an annual visitor to Jinan with family there; will adopt this article and continue to improve into the future. Haven't signed in as my username this weekend due to forgetting the password. The article was severely out-of-date and is missing lots of information, particularly on the sight-seeing aspects. Compared to many other provincial capitals the article is very poor and I want to promote a realistic and better view of the city to encourage more visits.

Am also going to donate some personal photos to wikivoyage to improve the article and also going for 3 weeks to Jinan in September and will make an effort to visit as many places I've not previously been to as possible so that I can make the most up-to-date article possible. -- Unsigned comment by User:94.31.13.5
 * Thank you for your contributions. I look forward to seeing more updates from you. Plunge forward with your overhaul. The article could use it. Ground Zero (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Updates and Things To Do

 * More work on the food section; the splurge section will have to be completed largely by research as my in-laws would have a fit paying some of the prices. XierZhanmusi (talk) 22:16, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * More research on the Sleep section; this is a bit difficult as I have never stayed at a hotel in the city.

Signing on now with my full-time username; I'll use this most of the time but may make anonymous edits occasionally too; e.g. lunchtime at work or when I'm logged in at the university. -- User:XierZhanmusi, 26 July 2017

Best Article Structures?
Would like some opinions from regular editors on the following questions?

How to direct reader's attention to sites / things-to-do that are highly recommended compared to those that are not worth visiting on short trips? Jinan is a large city with 7 districts; however, the districts are not a useful guide to which sites are geographically close; how best to deal with that? As the article gets larger, would it be better to have different more detailed articles for the districts, and then a main article which highlights the most interesting places? -- User:XierZhanmusi, 26 July 2017

 * I'll leave some links on your talk page. When you are signed in, please remember to sign your talk page comments by putting four gilded at the end, like this: ~. This will put you under name and the date and time on your comments do that people know who wrote thrm. (Don't do this in the article, though.) Thanks.
 * The best way to identify what is best to see and what is less important is in the text that you write: "one of Jinan's highlights", "a must-see for any visitor", "interesting to see if you have more time in the city", "only for people with a strong interest in 19th century temples". I hope that helps. Ground Zero (talk) 03:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * okay, thanks, I'll try to make the descriptions clearer. XierZhanmusi (talk) 16:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Questions
Is the drinks section only for alcohol? Or can this section be used for coffee shops, tea houses, juice bars, any place where you go to drink something and where food is not the main purpose? As the previous authors noted, Jinan is not big on pubs and clubs (although I'm sure there must be some, my wife doesn't let me look).

Also, do you know why the editor mixes up highlighting centers and centres as incorrect? Which one should I use? I started using centres because I'm British but it actually looks quite old-fashioned to me now. XierZhanmusi (talk) 22:16, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Also, what should go into the Do section and what should go into the See section? In my mind, See should include museums and art galleries as you go there to look at things. Do would be more action oriented things such as rock climbing, water skiing, swimming, etc. Where should something like visiting a theme park or walking around a scenic area fit in? XierZhanmusi (talk) 22:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

 * It looks like you deleted my previous reply by accident. I'd put theme parks and suggested hikes in "Do", although scenic spots that are mainly just to look and not hike to could be put in "See"; it's a judgment call. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I had some connection problems yesterday and at times was getting errors while saving changes so that's why your answer may have disappeared. XierZhanmusi (talk) 13:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I see no problem with including tea houses in the drink section. Wikivoyage uses American spelling unless there is a connection to UK (or Canadian or Australian, etc.) spelling -- you wouldn't use US spelling for Cardiff, Winnipeg or Brisbane. 'Center' looks garish to me, but it is what our policy would recommend for China. I don't think anyone would be offended if you use centre, but do be consistent one way or the other. Ground Zero (talk) 22:22, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, please list coffee shops, tea houses and juice bars. You can put them in one or more separate sub-sections if there are enough listings for that to make things easier to read. In terms of spelling, I remember from my previous trips to China (most recently in 2004) that "centre" was used, but you would be more up to date on that. If British spellings are still more commonly used, use those spellings in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Climate
Is there an automatic method of pulling in the climate from Wikipedia / Wikidata or do the numbers have to be entered manually? XierZhanmusi (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Not as far as I know. I copy Template:Climate to a text file, type in the data for the destination (usually just high and low temperatures and rain) from WP or climate-data.org and copy everything to the article. It takes just a couple of minutes. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Please also make sure to credit your source with a link if there is direct copying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Getting in
There's no 'add listings' in the transport section although other articles such as 'Chengdu' have them. I personally think it's useful to show train station, airport, bus station locations and could copy a listing template in from somewhere else but wanted to know is it intentional that listings can't be added to this section? XierZhanmusi (talk) 12:44, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You can use a generic "listings" template - it is the "i" icon at the right hand side of the list of icons. I don't know if there is any policy against using listings for stations and airports. Ground Zero (talk) 12:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Listings says "Wikivoyage uses standardized formats to list attractions and monuments, activities, shops, restaurants, bars and lodgings under the See, Do, Buy, Eat, Drink and Sleep sections respectively" and "If the listing doesn't fit into one of the above categories, you can use the "listing" tag for a generic one." It is silent on using templates in "Get in" or "Get around", as is Article templates/Sections, so I think you can use the listings template, unless anyone else is aware of another policy. Ground Zero (talk) 13:03, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Locations with Multiple points of interest
There are 2 questions:

 * Does anyone have a good example of a location as a listings template, which also has further listings within it? I thought I'd read that this is possible and would want to use it for Daming Lake, Baotu Spring, and Qianfo Mountain for example, because each has multiple points of interest (some with extra fees too).

 * Also, how should I treat a location which has different points of interest from different categories? For example, the luxury hotels often have the hotel, a bar or cafe, and a restaurant, which in a couple of cases could each be justified as going into the Sleep, Eat and Drink sections separately. XierZhanmusi (talk) 15:32, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

 * (1) You can see examples of this at Rome/Vatican.

 * (2) In exceptional cases, it's justifiable for the same business to have two separate listings. The test for whether a hotel restaurant merits its own separate listing in the "Eat" section is whether it is independently notable and widely patronized If not, it's normal to choose what is best known - the hotel or the restaurant - and cover the other function within its single "Sleep" or "Eat" listing. by non-guests. However, I think it's very unlikely that giving a business more than 2 listings could be justified. The bar could be mentioned within the "Eat" listing or the restaurant within the "Drink" listing, if they are in the same place or right next to each other, or one of them could be mentioned in the hotel's "Sleep" listing if they're separate businesses within the hotel. But ultimately, my advice would be for you to use your own judgment.

 * For your reference, here is the relevant text at Don't tout:

 * * Don't list the same place many times. Yes, a guesthouse may have a restaurant, a bar, an Internet café and a dance show, but you need to pick one of "See", "Eat", "Drink", "Sleep" and "Connect" to slot it under.  That said, exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis if, for example, a hotel has a famous, separately named bar or restaurant that also draws significant numbers of non-resident customers (use the article's talk page to discuss these rare instances). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:29, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Seeing & Doing (Again)
Is a zoo a doing thing rather than a seeing thing? Other articles I think put it in that section. XierZhanmusi (talk) 15:25, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

 * According to Where you can stick it, zoos belong in the "See" section of city articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:59, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the link, still finding my way around. XierZhanmusi (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Districts
I saw a 'Districts' section in the Singapore article and would like to have a similar section in this article. Are there any tutorials on how to setup the maps in the way the author of that section did? I can see how to setup the text of course but wondered how he managed to code in the areas into the map. XierZhanmusi (talk) 15:26, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe Renek78 is the person to ask ϒpsilon (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Most cities on this site are not districted for the purposes of Wikivoyage. The only reason to create district articles is that there is too much content to reasonably fit it into one article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:14, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello Ikan, I'm not planning on creating district articles for Jinan at the moment, although I do think that would not be unreasonable for some major Chinese cities because the administrative areas of those cities is usually very large and encompasses a much wider space than most Western countries would define as a city. Many cities contain other cities with populations of a million+ which could certainly contain enough content for a district style article (such as Lushun in Dalian or even Zhangqiu in Jinan). This is just a peculiarity of the Chinese system of assigning huge areas to cities. What I want to do is to create a 'Districts' section on the Jinan page, which just describes the various districts and shows them on a map, just as there is on the Singapore page. All of the addresses I've entered include the district name and a Districts section would help give context to that. XierZhanmusi (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

TO BE MORE CLEAR AS I REALISE I DIDN'T EXPRESS WHAT I WANT TO DO CLEARLY ENOUGH: I don't want to add links to and create subpages for the various districts of Jinan, I just want to list the districts, have a short comment on them, and show them on a map. XierZhanmusi (talk) 23:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi XierZhanmusi, if you think you have enough content for a distrification of Jinan please go ahead. I thought of creating a Youtube video on how to make such a district map but haven't done so yet. Below is a quick overview of the most simple way to set up such a map:

 * Go to http://geojson.io and draw your districts with the function Draw a polygon. Click on each of your polygons to open the on-screen menu and change the color according to your preference.
 * Once finished copy the GeoJSON code to your clipboard.
 * Create a new Wikidata item for your map, e.g. c:Data:Jinan_Districts.map. Click on the Create button. Here you have to paste your GeoJSON code from 2. and save (example: c:Data:Singapore_City_Centre_Districts.map. Click on edit to better understand, how the code should look like).
 * Now on the Jinan - Wikivoyage page you have to link to the map on Wikidata by adding this code (map is empty at the moment because no map has been created on Wikidata yet):

 * That is all. Your main map is done.

 * Mapmasks for the district maps, which grey out everything beyond the district border (example: Amsterdam/Zuid), have to be created with help of
 * http://aaronpdennis.github.io/geojson-to-gpx/ - Copy the GeoJSON code of the relevant district (from step 1. above) to this website, click on convert. Paste into empty Notepad and save with .gpx extension.
 * http://maps.wikivoyage-ev.org/w/gpx2mapmask.php - Load the .gpx file from above to this website and click on Convert. Just paste the code created on this website below your mapframe in the district article.
 * That is all. Hopefully it is understandable. Three more comments:
 * Other guys on Wikivoyage are against this way to create district articles. See this lengthy discussion. I think both ways have pros and cons. It does not really matter which way to follow, in my opinion.
 * I personally do not use http://geojson.io to create the map but a tool called JOSM, which main purpose is to edit the OpenStreetMap. Advantage of this software is, that points of polygons can be snapped to other points, thus you get perfectly aligned borders between your districts.
 * Please ask, if you have questions. Hopefully I'll be able to help.
 * --Renek78 (talk) 23:22, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the instructions Renek78!!! XierZhanmusi (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

 * My feeling is that unless you are districting the city (creating a district map and articles for every district), it's better to have an "orientation" subsection of "Get around" that informs readers about districts they'd be particularly interested in and helps them orient themselves vis-à-vis important landmarks and intersections.

 * In terms of population, that really is not close to the sole governing factor behind districting or not districting on this site. Karachi has over 23,000,000 inhabitants but gets only one article on Wikivoyage because its attractions are mostly in one area of town; Richmond, Virginia has a population of only 200,000 but has been divided into 7 district articles (1 as yet a red link) because of the number of attractions that are in different parts of town.

 * Currently, China has Huge City articles (which means the cities are districted, with separate district articles) for Beijing, Dalian, Hong Kong if it counts, Macau if it counts, and Shanghai (Taipei if it counts, too). I feel sure that we'll eventually have so much information in articles for several other Chinese cities that districting will be advisable, but for the time being, there are various really big Chinese cities (Guangzhou and Chengdu come to my mind immediately) that merely have Big City articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

 * Another issue with the Chinese cities is that administrative area is sometimes so enormous and so strangely shaped that it's not completely useful as the basis for an article. For example, there is a wildlife park / funfair near Jinan which is not in the Jinan administrative area, but the nearest city is Jinan, and I'd estimate it is closer to the center of Jinan than about half of the administrative area. It wouldn't surprise me if many cities in China have similar issues. The city immediately to the north-west of Jinan, Dezhou, has a similar issue where is has a large administrative area, but the city center is at the edge of that area and some of the closest places to Dezhou are even in another province. In the Jinan example I give above, I'm guessing it's best to put the wildlife park into the Jinan article, with an explanatory note? XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * Yes. It's usually most sensible to put listings in the article for the nearest city. I do understand that some Chinese cities are very large in area. Everything can be revisited later; it wouldn't totally shock me if in the end, it could make sense to create Jinan district articles, but probably not yet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:21, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Ikan, do you have an example article with the 'get around' section in a format similar to what you propose for this one that I can use to copy? Also, is it still okay to put a map in? XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC) Also, if I do have more than one map, is there a guide on how I ensure all the locations only appear on one of the maps, and not both of them? XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC) I'll take a look at the discussion on the methods for building district maps too, so I can see why one may be preferable to the other. XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * In the Tunis guide, "Orientation" is a subsection of "Understand". If you read Italian, it's a standard first-order section there. The term on Italian Wikivoyage is "Come orientarsi". I wish we used this as a subsection more on en.voy.

 * I wouldn't include a bus map, because bus routes are subject to change and the website of the bus service is much more likely to keep their maps updated. So I'd simply link their website in their listing or inline.
 * If not a bus route map, why would you want more than one map in the article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * You can also describe the districts with bullet points like in Montevideo or Tallinn. The dynamic map is zoomable and movable, so you wouldn't probably need a second map. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * What do you mean by inline? Sorry, I'm not sure what that is. XierZhanmusi (talk) 21:18, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * First, it's really best to keep posts in chronological order. But to answer your question, NYU owns a lot of real estate in the East Village, and the large number of NYU students thronging to the neighborhood's bars, ice cream shops and cafes therefore have an outsized influence on its current character. Do you see the inline link in the previous sentence? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Transport Maps
If I found a map for Jinan's bus routes (can't find one yet) how do I know if it can be copied into this article? Is that advisable; I've seen articles with Metro system maps copied in, but until Jinan metro opens (and even after as it will not have stations in large and important parts of the city center for many years) the bus is probably the most important form of public transport. XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Education & Universities
Should I be including universities in the article? I've seen comments on other pages both stating that universities are fine, but also saying that the Learn section should only be oriented towards what a tourist type traveler might be able to get out of a visit. XierZhanmusi (talk) 02:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * The consensus guidelines on universities, as I understand them, are that they can be listed under the following conditions (not necessarily exhaustive):

 * (1) They are interesting sights (list in "See")

 * (2) They host interesting concerts, lectures or sporting matches open to the public (list in "Do")

 * (3) They provide classes for non-matriculated students that last around 2 weeks or less (list in "Learn", but usually, a listing would be in one section, with other things interesting to a visitor also mentioned in that listing)

 * If none of that applies, they can be mentioned with a link if they have a major visible and/or palpable effect on the city; in that case, "Understand" would be the usual place to mention that.

 * Does this make sense? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:25, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * Yes, that makes sense to me. Lists of every university in every city wouldn't be very useful. I think I have seen articles still like that so I was unsure what the consensus was. XierZhanmusi (talk) 11:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Number of Photos
Just wondering how many images is ideal for a city article of this size? I'm not planning to put on loads but it would be good to have some guidance. If anyone had any ideas on what sort of photos they think would be good for the article I can go take them in person soon. I have lots of Jinan anyway so may have covered many things; just need to look at my archive. XierZhanmusi (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

 * There's no absolute number of photos that is optimal, but in general, it's good to aim toward about 1 per screen on a laptop (which means, in part, that it's good to spread them around the article and not bunch them anywhere). My take on this is that thumbnails used in Wikivoyage guides should be particularly appealing, interesting or informative, and of at least decent quality.

 * You might want to look at Image policy if you haven't already. Image resources might be useful, if you want to go beyond what's already on Commons, and of course it's great that you have your own photos!

 * You could always see how photos have been handled in star articles, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

"Currently closed"
A listing is marked as "currently closed". What does that mean? Is it closed for good? If so, the listing must be deleted. Is it closed for restoration? If so, that must be stated. Basically, the issue is whether the listing is of any use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:05, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Currently I don't know; I've been there and it was closed. I took a photograph of a message left on the door but I've not had time to translate it yet. I suspect the venue is moving from what I could see when I was there but will update when I know for sure. I thought best to at least note that it's closed not to waste anyone's time until I can state for certain. XierZhanmusi (talk) 13:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

October 2017
Just want to note that this page has now moved to the 1st page of results for Google search 'Jinan' whereas in July it was showing around page 5 or 6. I've not had time to make many changes since my return as I've been very busy but I will continue to update when I can. XierZhanmusi (talk) 13:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

This page is currently result 2 for searches for Jinan on Google, immediately after the wikipedia page! —The preceding comment was added by XierZhanmusi (talk • contribs)

 * I signed for you, because you deserve the lion's share of credit for this with all your great work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal to district Jinan (conversion to huge city)
Jinan is a prefecture-level city with 9.2 million people. It has 10 districts and 2 counties. It is relatively decentralized. As you read this proposal, please refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinan#Administrative_divisions.
 * To be practical, I treat the two remote counties as if they were subordinated to the one district that each borders respectively, so I will simply talk about 10 districts.

The city is currently covered by two city-level articles, Jinan (8 districts) and Laiwu (2 districts).
 * Some background info: Laiwu was also a prefecture-level city but lost city status in 2019 when it was merged to Jinan. The two districts that made up pre-2019 Laiwu are now two out of ten districts of Jinan, with Laiwu's former Laicheng District now simply being named Laiwu District.

There is no coverage in the Jinan article or even any mention of Laiwu, and there should be, since Laiwu is a part of Jinan, and that's what readers would expect at this point, but at the same time, Jinan shouldn't have a summary of or major references to Laiwu because Laiwu isn't subordinated to Jinan on WV per WV:Regions. By conceding to a definition of Jinan as "Jinan means Jinan but without Laiwu" in the long run we could cause a bit of confusion among readers, or make it look as if the article hasn't been updated in a very long time. However, Jinan can be districted, which is what this proposal is about.

The Laiwu article is already a de-facto a district-level article, and would be fine as a real district article. It doesn't need any significant deliberate work to make it function as such. At this stage we have one district-level article (Laiwu), and and 8-district undistricted area covered in Jinan -- the question is whether and how these 8 administrative units could be grouped into at least two or more Wikivoyage district-level articles, and thus how could Jinan's listings be split into at least two or more articles.
 * When asking should the present Jinan-minus-Laiwu article be split in the first place because it is "so big and diverse that there's too much information for one Wikivoyage article", the answer is yes. Let's look at See listings: There are 64 of them. The listings are okay; when considering if the article would rather benefit from trimming, instead of splitting, I would say no.

Said 64 listings are already partially/approximately grouped by district, and so we have the Jinan section which contains enough See listings for a separate Changqing District article. This already indicates that of the remaining 8 districts, one official district (with "its" rural area) could be spun out into a district article, leaving us with a 7-district undistricted area. We can immediately subtract 4 from those 7, because 4 districts (Lixia, Shizhong, Huaiyin, Tianqiao) are clearly the inner city districts and would certainly make up the inner city district-level article. The majority of listings would still end up there. Thus far, we have Jinan/Inner city, Laiwu, and Changqing (with the associated Pingyin County) and the remaining three districts.

These remaining three (Licheng, Zhangqiu, and Jiyang with "its" Shanghe County) could be covered together in the fourth and final district-level article, meaning that Jinan would be fully districted into four articles.

To the elaborate on the last point: In the Jinan article there isn't an explicit section for any of those three remaining districts like there is for Changqing, but we have subheadings like Jinan (not helpful to call something "Jinan Region") which contains listings for the more remote Zahgqiu district, which leans onto the Licheng, which also has entries there. Another kind of arbitrarily grouped and named See section Jinan (which does not denote the Inner city but "sites outside the city center") also has multiple Licheng entries, so in total there are at least 9 entries for Licheng+Zhangqiu; there aren't any for Jiyang (feels like something is missing there), meaning that it could be combined with Licheng+Zhangiu. It isn't possible to combine it with anything else, except the inner city districts which is worse than with Licheng+Zhangqiu.

When it comes to naming, on Wikipedia the districts of Jinan are grouped into four things: "Inner city", "Inner suburbs", "Outer suburbs", "Rural counties". Well, we certianly won't have a "Rural counties" district because the two counties are not contiguous, and they certainly won't each be a separate WV district. We could have "Inner city", "Changqing", "Suburbs", and "Laiwu".

With all of this in mind, I propose that Jinan gets the huge city treatment. This would be similar to Dalian, a smaller (7.5 million) prefecture-level huge city districted into four articles. Two out of four resulting district articles would start out as outlines, but if anyghing they would have an adequate number of See listings (more than Dalian's districts) from the get go. The other two resulting district articles would start out as well developed articles (one is Laiwu and the other is what would remain here after splitting which would still be the bulk of content). Cheers all Twsabin (talk) 00:21, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * districtification. There is a lot of content in this article (with 64 see listings!) for a reader to comfortably navigate through. Your proposal seems like a good plan for districts. --  SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 00:24, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You might also want to draw out the boundaries using geojson.io. -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 00:26, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * This sounds good to me. About how many listings will the proposed district with the smallest number have? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , 10-12, based strictly on existing content (with some really important ones like the airport and a train station). I began work on a mockup/draft in my userspace. the maps are on Wikidata -- is this a good start? Twsabin (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:33, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * LGTM. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 20:25, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Although I said the maps are good, keep in mind that huge cities that use mapshapes that rely on Wikidata can disappear. Late last year, all mapshapes were present on New South Wales. Now four of them have disappeared without a trace. SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 22:19, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes I noticed this in many articles, and particularly, for this proposal, one of the wikidata articles (Q1198335, current name of district) has a map identifier on openstreetmap which points to a redirect (Q60513151, old name of district), which happened after the name change, and the outdated Q identifier of the redirect has to be used for the map to show; took me a bit to figure this out. Doesn't seem amazingly robust indeed. Twsabin (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me too. I'll add a few more listings here later when I get time. STW932 (talk) 15:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * When adding the maps to the district articles, you might find that some of the markers appear outside the district boundaries. It's not uncommon in our China articles for coordinates to be wrong due to some users being unaware of the fact that China uses a different geocoding system from the rest of the world. STW932 (talk) 06:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I see this process was never completed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It looks like there was a consensus behind a districting scheme but no followup. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Jinan-Laiwu High-Speed Railway expected to open soon
The Chinese media recently reported that the Jinan-Laiwu High-Speed Railway is about to begin doing test runs, which means it will likely open on December 26th as scheduled (the Wikipedia article about the line is out of date). Stops on the line include Jinan East, Licheng, Zhangqiu South, Xueye, Laiwu North and Gangcheng. Trains will travel at a speed of 350km per hour and take just 22 and half minutes to reach Gangcheng from Jinan East. STW932 (talk) 15:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jinan


text:
Talk:Jinghong

Comments
Just started this. I can't remember heaps of specific details, but i loved this town and it needs an entry. Please everyone who nows a little, add to this and give this city is just desserts. I will attempt to expand a little after looking at my travel notes.(WT-en) Guavafruit 17:42, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Money exchange / ATM?
Any information about that?

I need feedback
Hello! My team members and I have edited some information about Jinghong. I hope you can give me some feedback about the interface or content! thank you！ Sandykkzk (talk) 06:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 * I think your editing is excellent, but I have a few suggestions. It would be nice if the introduction to the museum could be a little more variedDdccxl (talk) 05:58, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your feedback, I will take it on board and amend it. Liziyuan0216 (talk) 06:27, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Your pages are very comprehensive. I think it's very good. Perhaps any other advice for more tourists on the subject of staying safe? I think this will get more people's attention. Thanks.Hhhh2 (talk) 06:31, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jinghong


text:
Talk:Jinju

Jinju is not famous for bibimbap, get the fact correctly. Seems like some jerk does not know how to distinguish Jinju and Jeonju

 * Are you talking about the jerks over at the the Jinju City Tourism Office, perhaps?

 * But I've clarified the article to indicate that Jinju and Jeonju bibimbap are famous. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:37, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

Connect
The connect section does not appear to be specifc to this town, suggest merging into the South Korea article. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

 * There is a pattern with Korean articles. It seems an ESL teacher gets sent to some small town (Jinju in this case) and writes everything they know about Korea in it. This seems to apply to many of the Jinju sections. Andrewssi2 (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I took a further decision to remove the complicated and non-standard 'Get Out' section Andrewssi2 (talk) 15:49, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I went through and removed and copy edited more content. Basically there was a lot of 'How things work in South Korea' information. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:45, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

What does this mean?
"Originally, the castle was made of clay, but later the stone was turned into material."

Huh? Clay and stone are both materials, strictly speaking (though the the word "material" is often restricted to types of cloth in common parlance). I thought I understood the meaning and edited it accordingly, but the obscure previous text was restored without comment or explanation. Here was my best guess at the actual meaning:

"Originally, the castle was made of clay, but this was replaced with stone."

I solicit a reply from User:Ehddl2525, or at least an explanation of what the sentence is supposed to mean, because it doesn't make sense in English. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jinju


text:
Talk:Jiu Zai Gou

I cannot find a reference to a place of this name or a similar spelling except Jiu Zhai Gou in Sichuan. In which case we already have an article: Jiuzhaigou Nature Reserve. Perhaps one of our China hands could confirm before it is re-directed. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:05, 10 April 2010 (EDT)

 * Agree, this must be a mistake for Jiuzhaigou, I suggest we delete Jiu Zai Gou, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 03:10, 11 April 2010 (EDT)

 * A re-direct is much easier and needs no debate. Wikivoyage likes re-directing spelling mistakes :). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:44, 11 April 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Jiu Zai Gou


text:
Talk:Jiuzhaigou Valley

So, does anyone have the chops (pun intended) to romanize the title of this article? --(WT-en) Evan 07:34, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

 * It turns out I did! I did a search on Chinese Wikipedia, then used the Interwiki links to find the English Wikipedia article on the same subject. --(WT-en) Evan 07:40, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Jiuzhaigou Valley


text:
Talk:Jiyugaoka

Comments
Should this article be merged with Jiyuugaoka? They sound very similar, even the same place. - (WT-en) Huttite 05:06, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Both Jiyuugaoka and Jiyugaoka mean the same place in Tokyo.Editor should put Jiyuugaoka page into Jiyugaoka.

Seconded. Jiyuugaoka should merge into Jiyugaoka. Also, Jiyugaoka should NOT be merged with Meguro. The two are pretty distant and separated by lots of neighborhood and other towns. It's nice to have each small town broken down since they really are like little islands in a sea of houses and train tracks. "Meguro" is both a city and a ward (much bigger and covers other cities as well). The ward is probably named after Meguro city. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 58.95.13.184 (talk • contribs)

 * Thirded? They are one and the same, but definitely distinct from Meguro. I've worked up a pretty good draft of the two combined and cleaned up, but didn't do anything with it yet. The old Tokyo district problem. There is more than enough to keep you busy for a day or an afternoon in and around Jiyugaoka, but just need time to add more information. As-is, this is now about as complete as some long-time Tokyo districts. See User:(WT-en) Ted/Scratchpad (WT-en) Ted 22:29, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

 * Hope I didn't jump the gun, but I went ahead and merged the two, putting the Redirect from Jiyuugaoka to here. Not done a Redirect before, so I hope I got it right. Next question is Merge or District? Geographically this is in Meguro and Setagaya Wards, but functionally it stands on its own with a distinct identity. I'd like to move it to the correct Tokyo namespace to be a district Tokyo/Jiyugaoka. See little point in merging with Meguro to then split it out again later. There are so many good eating, drinking, and shopping options here that I just haven't gotten to yet--much more than actually in the immediate Meguro Station area. Realized I left the Merge edit as "Minor" in error, so unticking Minor here in case anyone wants a look. Thanks! (WT-en) Ted 20:11, 28 August 2010 (EDT)

This article was tagged for merging in 2010, but per the above comments it sounds like there is a dispute about merging this to Tokyo/Meguro. Can anyone comment on whether the merge tag should be removed, or whether a merge is still the correct outcome? -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:50, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

 * As far as current districtification is concerned, this belongs in Meguro. Meguro Station and Jiyugaoka Station are only 11 minutes away by train, so even if there are little enclaves between them, they are by no means far from one another. If someone wants this to be its own article, they should suggest redistricting Tokyo, but neither this article nor the main Meguro article are very developed, I'd say for now it should be merged. At the moment, this article is mostly just restaurants and a few Buys, so it's not as if merging would make it so troubling to districtify again later if need be. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:39, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jiyugaoka


text:
Talk:Jiyuugaoka

''This page is for discussing the corresponding article or guide. For more about using talk pages check out Project:Using talk pages.''

Comments
Should this article be merged with Jiyugaoka? They sound very much like the same place. - (WT-en) Huttite 05:01, 24 November 2009 (EST)

 * Also, they seem to be districts of Tokyo. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 18:31, 17 March 2010 (EDT)

Merge 'em. I'm living in Tokyo now and they're the same place. :) The double "u" in Jiyuugaoka is because it's pronounced longer, but there are different ways of writing Japanese words in roman characters. You could have "Jiyugaoka," "Jihuugaoka" or "Jiyūgaoka". - [no account. :)]

 * They are one and the same, but definitely distinct from Meguro. I've worked up a pretty good draft of the two combined and cleaned up, but didn't do anything with it yet. The old Tokyo district problem. There is more than enough to keep you busy for a day or an afternoon in and around Jiyugaoka, but just need time to add more information. As-is, this is now about as complete as some long-time Tokyo districts. See User:(WT-en) Ted/Scratchpad (WT-en) Ted 22:30, 27 August 2010 (EDT)

title: Talk:Jiyuugaoka


text:
Talk:Johannesburg

Hi I was shocked to see the prices of accommodation......it has sky rocketed in the whole of SA since my last visit. This time around I am looking to house sit in and around Randburg for the last two weeks in January. I love SA having lived there for 6 years but now living in Canada I find that the Rand to dollar ratio, especially now that I am in early retirement, too expensive to afford the hotel and B & B rates being charged. Anyone know of a reasonable priced place in the Randburg area welcome to contact me. marlenna@quickclic.net

It it's your thing you might want to look at couchsurfing as well http://www.couchsurfing.com (WT-en) Bain 02:09, 5 January 2011 (EST)

"Oprah herself has said..." Apparently no irony here. Dear God, have we sunk so far?

Quite right! Property prices in general have been rising at a rapid clip - I believe 300% over the last years. The B&B prices will be best....try find a reasonably priced one through the AA travel website http://www.aatravel.co.za

"The contrast between rich and poor has led to one of the highest crime rates in the world." This is BS - not NPOV at all. Let's face it. If the rich all left and everyone were evenly poor, the crime rate wouldn't go down at all.

Districts
discussion of Nov 12 moved from User talk:(WT-en) NJR ZA (WT-en) WindHorse 11:16, 12 November 2006 (EST)

Hi Nick, I started a district section on the Jo'burg page, and have listed Soweto under Region six. However, I'm not sure that these politically designated districts are the best way to divide up the city in terms of providing info for visitors. So, please feel free to change as you feel appropriate. Thanks. WindHorse 10:51, 12 November 2006 (EST)

 * I also don't think the administrative regions are the best way to divide the city from a traveler's point of view. I think Soweto deserves a page of it's own as it is very big and cultural tourism is growing in that area. It might be better to break it up into six: Central, Northern and Southern Johannesburg, West Rand, East Rand and Soweto. Let's leave it as you have broken it up for now, but also leave the option open to change it later. Maybe add an entry on the discussion page for people to comment of how they would like to see it broken up - Nick Roux 11:02, 12 November 2006 (EST)

Stay safe
After reading the "stay safe" section, why would anyone want to visit Johannesburg? Unless one wants to live in total fear and mistrust when they visit. It makes it sound like eventualy you will be "jacked up" so dont be a hero and carry on.

 * It is considered one of the more dangerous cities in the world, no? Do you think we shouldn't warn of those things just to make it sound more appealing to tourists? Nobodies saying that those things will happen to you if you go there, but they are things to take into consideration. Most guidebooks have similar warnings. If you're really familiar with the city and disagree, you're as free as anyone to edit the article and make it better reflect reality. I spent a week there and was fine. But I can't say that it felt like an overly safe city either. – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 01:42, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

 * I live in the area and the entry seems to be accurate enough. Johannesburg is for the most part a first world city with excellent infrastructure (except public transport infrastructure, there we fall very short), but violent crime is a very serious problem. In general, the DO NOT TRY TO BE A HERO! bit is something that I don't agree with it for two reasons. Firstly because many people have simply handed over whatever was demanded of them just to end up dead anyway, secondly because I believe that it further increases crime as it decreases the risk to the criminal and makes committing the crimes a lot easier. (The same reason why the USA has a firm policy not to negotiate with kidnappers). This is however a travel wiki and not a political forum. Not being a hero probably is good advice for travelers. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 09:16, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

 * Can someone explain what is a "red robot"? [QUOTE]At night do not stop at red robots.[/QUOTE]
 * Do you mean at red traffic lights? Pardon my ignorance.

I quite agree with the stay safe entery about DO NOT TRY TO BE A HERO. Not handing your stuff over makes it alot more likely that you get hurt. Also maybe the Red Robot should be changed. Most people don't call Traffic Lights Robots. I only figured that out on a recent visit to Joburg. 70.56.91.182 23:18, 16 December 2007 (EST)

Everyone in Joburg calls traffic lights ROBOTS. If you heard them being called "traffic lights", it's because people identified you as an out-of-towner and were politely trying not to confuse you. The advice not to stop at red robots is wrong and misleading. They're red robots for a reason, and to disobey them is to invite danger and chaos. Just keep your eyes open and drive with care, as you would in any big city.

Lion drops in for take-aways
Good reason why one should keep windows closed when visiting the Lion Park. News24-Lion drops in for take-aways

Restructure
I am busy restructuring Gauteng to give it a formal hierarchy, a resturcure of Johannesburg will happen at the same time. Some of the content currently in the Johannesburg article will be moved out of Johannesburg and into the correct Gauteng region where it belongs. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 15:38, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Santarama Miniland
The following entry has been removed from the guide and should probably be kept out.
 * Johannesburg in miniature.
 * Reason for removal
 * Though many guide books and web sites still list Santarama, it really is not much of an attraction anymore. The miniature models are in a serious state of disrepair, none of the animatronics are functioning, there is no water flowing over the Howick falls and the dam is dry and full of trash. A real shame as it used to be a lovely place to visit.

--(WT-en) Nick 13:52, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

MetroRail safety?
The "Get in" section describes "most" MetroRail trains as "quite safe", but Stay safe goes on to say that "Public transport use is discouraged as frequent attacks occur on the crowded services." Which is the case? If some lines are safe, and others aren't, then please say which is which! (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:42, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

Districtify
Maybe an option divide Joburg in Central, North, South, East and West, similar to this wikipedia picture. Soweto would go into SouthWest and Sandton would fit in the North(ern suburbs). Or even split in only 3 sections: Central, North and South, because there's pretty much no info about the southeast. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Babbelas (talk • contribs)

 * I agree with this - a good split would be Central, Northern suburbs, Soweto - the current split is too disaggregated (inc Randburg and Roodepoort).  How do we change 'Sandton' in to 'Northern suburbs'? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Hongu (talk • contribs)

 * OK, what's going on with the districts? We have a bunch of "movetodistrict" tags, but most of the districts are not linked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

As there does not seem to have been any work on the districts since 2016, I plunged forward and created an Inner City district page. --Jonte-- (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

2020
Johannesburg has been halfway districtified for as long as I can remember, and this is both confusing for readers and embarrassing for us who are trying to provide readers good and useful travel guides.

I'm completely unfamiliar with this part of the world, but maybe the above discussions can provide some smart suggestions for districts. Another tactic would be dividing the city into a couple of districts along borders that are easily visible both on a map and in real life (bodies of water, railways, major roads and so on). Nevertheless, the first thing would be adding the coordinates for the listings in the main Johannesburg article and see where they end up on the map so as not to create articles with no or almost no listings at all. Ypsilon (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

 * Two+ years later and the situation is still the same. Anyone familiar with Johannesburg? Ypsilon (talk) 13:26, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

 * Nu? It would be great for someone who knows the city to clean this up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Soweto
The first paragraph of the "Do" section warns visitors to only go to Soweto with an official tour operator and to never go there on their own. But the paragraph immediately above that at the end of the "See" section encourages people to drive into Soweto on their own and mingle with the locals. One or the other of these recommendations probably ought to be removed. —The preceding comment was added by Koreth~enwikivoyage (talk • contribs)

title: Talk:Johannesburg