text:
Talk:Put-in-Bay

Data mining
Links for data mining:

(WT-en) Fastestdogever 21:38, 10 March 2007 (EST)

 * I have removed the above link, both to discourage linkspam on talk pages, and because it will likely be blacklisted. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:15, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Website Address
Who ever is changing our website addreses please stop. Thank you. Grand Islander & Islander Inn Put-in-Bay —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 64.12.116.200 (talk • contribs)

I undid the edit on Put in Bay Resort Hotel, under sleep. It is a legitimate place to sleep and the Island is lacking in rooms. this has been a great addition to the Island. (WT-en) 2old 09:40, 29 November 2008 (EST)

Added back vandals removal od Meetings. people who travel do plan meetings, weddings, reunions so it is therfore relevant content. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.116.200 (talk • contribs)

 * I've reverted your last changes. "Meetings" is not a section header used on wikivoyage, and the insertion, multiple times across the page, of content about your hotel, as well as moving your listing to the top of the section, violates our Project:Don't tout policy. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:17, 29 November 2008 (EST)

 * It's not "my" listing and if you look back in history it was always at the top as other listings were never there to begin with. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.116.200 (talk • contribs)

 * Entries are listed alphabetically, not by who got there first. Knock it off.   (WT-en) Dguillaime 18:22, 29 November 2008 (EST)

 * Not true see http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Key_West As you can see this is not the case. Knock it off. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 64.12.116.200 (talk • contribs)

 * You're making a mess of the formatting here. Aaaanyhow, Key West does indeed need some cleanup, but one random article also does not define the standards.  What does is the accommodations listing policy, under "listing order".  (WT-en) Dguillaime 02:15, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Within each subdivision, when no other standard of ordering listings is used, alphabetical order should be the norm. If another standard is used, it should be clearly stated so any new listing can be added to the appropriate place.

Another standard is being used. Now that we are clear on that, Thanks —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 64.12.116.200 (talk • contribs)

The continual changes of the hotel links in this article to what appears to be a third-party booking site violates several policies on this site, most notably Project:Don't tout and Project:External links. To the anonymous user who repeatedly makes these changes - please stop. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 14:29, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Our Grand Islander and Islander in site are directed to our main site which is all of our properties. Please stop disturbing our sites and this is getting very frustrating. This is the URL we want these to point to. Thank you. PS Why would you want to blacklist www.grandislanderpib.com and our www.islanderinnpib.com sites just because we want it pointing to our main site??

 * Please read the policies linked above, specifically Project:External links. The site being linked to is not a web site for the hotel, it's a general Put-In-Bay reservation site, which is explicitly called out in our policies as something NOT to link to.  Even if this new site is owned by the same company the Wikivoyage policies are designed to prevent spamming, and redirecting official hotel/restaurant/whatever links to bucket sites is a favorite tactic of spammers. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 14:44, 30 November 2008 (EST)

 * The hotel links are being changed to a general Put-In-Bay reservations site again. http://www.grandislanderpib.com/ is CLEARLY the home page for the Grand Islander hotel, and http://www.islanderinnpib.com/ is CLEARLY the home page for the Islander Inn.  The link that they are being changed to is a general Put-In-Bay reservation site, which is not a valid primary link per Project:External links.  If the hotels are using this new site, please update the http://www.grandislanderpib.com/ and http://www.islanderinnpib.com/ pages to link to this system, but that reservation link should NOT be used on Wikivoyage as it violates policy. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:08, 2 February 2009 (EST)

For what it's worth, Edgewater Investment spam has plagued Wikipedia for several years, too. See: --(WT-en) A. B. 09:14, 26 May 2009 (EDT)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Put-in-Bay,_Ohio
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:75.43.186.62&oldid=292385882

Restaurant listings
I'm from Cleveland and just spent this past Saturday at Put-in-Bay. I enjoyed it so much that I figured I'd spend some time cleaning this article up and adding some listings of things I enjoyed while I was there. Being a neutral third-party, I'm happy to tone down some of the shameless-sounding plugs and turn them into an honest evaluation. To those of you doing business on South Bass, you have something special--so stop fighting over customers and work together to keep giving them more cool stuff to come and see!!! That having been said, I wanted to mention that the Eat section is not sorted alphabetically, because I'm hoping I've got these in about the order they'd need to be in to split the section into Budget, Mid-range, and Splurge categories. If someone would help fill in a few more restaurants with price details to better cover the spectrum, I think we'd be able to do it. I'd like to flesh out more of the Understand, Get Around, See, Do, and Get out sections so that we can hopefully get this article up to at least Usable status. If anyone can help, that would be great! Thanks!!! (WT-en) Lee 19:31, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Not to discourage anything, but I'm afraid being a wikivoyager is for the most part the job of a lone wolf, and unfortunately business owners (with the almost sole exception of User:(WT-en) WineCountryInn) are never interested in promoting anything but their business, even though a well developed Wikivoyage guide will probably drive more traffic to the area, than most on-line advertisement they might engage in.

 * One thing you can do, is to check through restaurant review websites, form an opinion of the place, and make your own description of the place. Of course it's more ideal with direct experience, but wiki entries can always be changed by someone else who has such experience afterwards. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 19:46, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

 * Thanks, Stefan! What I was thinking was that this is a rather small island, but there are really TONS of restaurants.  I just hoped that someone remembered some idea of what the prices were so we could eventually break them down--and add some other details as well, of course.  I think it's totally realistic to see at least five restaurants under each of the three headings and still have missed a bunch more.  Hopefully someone (preferably a neutral third-party like myself) will be interested in helping me out!  (WT-en) Lee 20:22, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

Whr2: I like some of what you did to clean up the listing here, but I would like to discuss a couple of things:
 * I think it's important that people see a "Get in By Car" section, rather than have it show up under "get around". I intended eventually to return to the "Get Around" section and add a list of the bicycle, golf cart, and moped rental companies on the island so folks would be better advised of their options, since there are several for a tiny island.  I would also add your words about getting around by car, since they are fairly true, but really only for Downtown Put-in-Bay.  Another thing I would like to do is add a list of docks where private boats can dock, since a lot of people like to make their own way over to Put-in-Bay if they have the craft to brave Lake Erie.  This would be an obvious option to the Ferries.
 * I was curious what prompted deletion of the Dairy Queen and Subway listings, since they are selections that some would want to know about if they were on a budget, such as if they had kids.
 * Also regarding restaurants, even though Tippers and Beer Barrell Pub are connected and operated together, they are VERY distinctly seperate and discrete businesses from each other, with seperate web sites, menus, and COMPLETELY different atmospheres. It does not seem to make sense to me to split them, anymore than one would separate two of Michael Simon's retaurants in Cleveland or a bar in Cedar Point or Disney that happens to be right next to a quiet restaurant.  I was there this summer, and I personally wouldn't find BBP all that interesting because I'm not into loud all-day partying...but I am interested in good steak and/or a live band, which I would find at Tippers.
 * Lastly, it might have been nice to leave a listing for the Sonny S on the page, since it is an alternative to the Miller Ferry for getting to Middle Bass for those who would like to go.

At some point soon, I hope to return and make some additional adds and additions. Let us hope the war of small minds ends where people are contantly reversing edits meant to benefit a specific party, and that some actual content is added that is useful for travelers. I look forward to coming to Put-in-Bay again this summer and having a jolly good time! (WT-en) Lee 12:58, 25 February 2010 (EST)

 * Most of the changes that I've made have had two goals:

 * Merging content from the South Bass Island island, which now redirects here.
 * Removing questionable content that appears to be aimed at promoting businesses rather than educating travelers.

 * Regarding your specific comments:

 * "Get in" is generally about how to get to a destination; having a "By car" section for an island seems fairly odd, although it's fine to mention that you can take a car on the ferry.
 * We don't normally give individual listings for chain restaurants like Subway - it's generally sufficient to note that they are available (example: "Put-in-Bay has a wealth of dining options, including chains such as Subway and Dairy Queen. Additional choices include:").
 * I consolidated the two establishments per Project:Don't tout - a business is usually listed only once in an article unless there is a very good reason for listing it twice. The Project:Don't tout guideline goes into more detail on this.
 * I don't know what the Sonny S is and don't think I removed any such listing. Feel free to add additional info if needed.

 * -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:08, 25 February 2010 (EST)

Official Link
To the anonymous user changing the link for Put-in-Bay - see Project:External links. http://visitputinbay.com (the Chamber of Commerce tourism site) is the official link for this destination. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:06, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

 * The link putinbay dot com has been for many years the link displayed in this section. While one might consider a link an official in some sense the purpose if Wiki Travel is to provide information. In comparing the two sites it is clear that the original link provides the traveler a much broader spectrum of information including entertainment schedules, history, maps and directions, airport information just to name a few. Please debate and resolve changes here rather than randomly making changes. With this in mind I have restored the link to it's orginal URL. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 64.12.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Project:External links is extremely clear on this case:

 * Using only primary sources makes our guide more succinct: where there is usually one or sometimes two primary source links for any subject, there can be hundreds or thousands of secondary source links. We also avoid subjectivity and conflict. It's difficult to decide collaboratively which of the thousands of English-language newspapers, magazines, and Web sites has done the very best travel article about New York, but it's quite easy for everyone to agree that http://www.nycvisit.com/ is the official city visitor's guide.

 * Project:External links would be the place to discuss changing the site's external link policy. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:31, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

The purpose of Wiki Travel is just that, travel. The primary role of a Chamber of Commerce is just that, commerce. The primary role of the original website that you keep changing is tourism. If you simply tale a moment to compare the two you will find one is more complete and offers much more information.

In addition, the Chamber of Commerce is a ad driven web site as they only permit members who pay dues and fees to be displayed. The original web site putinbay dot com is free to all who choose to participate at no fee therefore is a more unbiased resource for travelers. Time and time again I have read in discussions where it has been stated that web site that promote in return for fees to generate advertising revenue are not appropriate for Wiki Travel. Therefore I have restored the original link that has been in place for years. Regards. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 64.12.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Regardless of the utility of the site you would like to add, it is outweighed by the effect of the rules established at Project:External links, as well as a general refusal to weaken that policy by making exceptions—that policy is the principal rule we use to keep a lid on spamming and business touting sitewide. If you would like to better understand the reasoning behind this policy, you can take a look over the extensive discussions at Project:External links. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:06, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

While a general policy may provide guidelines, there are always exceptions. When there is a poorly designed site that lacks quite a bit of information, it appears it would be in the best interest of providing an alternative resource or perhaps both. Example of this in Wiki travel may be seen here:

http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Catalina_Island

In this example http://www.catalina.com is not the Chamber of commerce site and in comparing the chamber site to this resource it appears we have the same situation. An alternative site provides much more information and appears as the primary resource.

and here

http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/New_York_City

In this example the web site http://nycvisit.com then redirects to http://nycgo.com which again is not the Chamber of Commerce but a self admitted consortium of local business working together to promote the city.

This is exactly what we have in this situation. For several years putinbay dot com has been the accepted standard on this page. Now as a result of an edit, it appears to now be controversial.

Finally, while I understand Google and other search engine do not dictate how Wiki travel is operated, a simple search of Put in Bay show in each and every case all major search engines rank this web site over the Chamber due to the content and depth of the information contained. In fact Google even grants it authority status by sub indexing the pages.

Is not providing information what we are trying to do here verses promoting a restrictive organization that does not allow all the information to be passed along unless you are a paid advertiser or member? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Our interest is in providing information on the Wikivoyage page Put-in-Bay, not linking to where information can be found. You're wasting your time with these lengthy rationalizations — this is cut-and-dry. Had anyone noticed sooner that putinbay dot com was not the official site, it would have been changed sooner. If promoting your business on Wikivoyage is a priority for you, I suggest contacting Internet Brands about ad rates on that sidebar to the right. Otherwise, there isn't really anything left to discuss. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:22, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

There is no one business being promoted here. This, as the examples above are a consortium of busineses working together to promote tourism. Why rather than take a "cut-and-dry" position, do you not look at the examples cited, the websites in question and offer an opinion as to why it is approprite in the examples cited to devite from the norm but not here? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Most people learn at an early age that "He did it, too!" is not an effective way to get out of breaking the rules. Feel free to discuss on Talk:Catalina Island or Talk:New York City about anything you think should be changed there. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:41, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

Most people also learn that it's better to address a situation at hand than hide behind a cliche. I also noticed that you had made comments on the page there as well. Looks like your tacit approval there endorses my opinion here since you took no corrective action there in the similar situation. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Looks like giant fluffy balls of cotton are floating in the sky, too. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:56, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

What about http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:The_traveller_comes_first

"The traveller comes first" is an underlying principle that Wikivoyagers use when making decisions about Wikivoyage. The idea is that all our work should be guided towards serving the travellers that are our readers.

We make our navigation as "intuitive" as possible, in order to help readers find what they're looking for.

Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals From Wikivoyage Jump to: navigation, search The mission of Wikivoyage is this:

Wikivoyage is a project to create a free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide. Wikivoyage articles should be useful for at least the following purposes:

For on-line use by travellers on the road, huddled in a late-night Internet café in some dark jungle, who need up-to-the-minute information on lodging, transportation, food, nightlife, and other necessities; For off-line use by travellers on the road sitting in a train with a subset of Wikivoyage on their PDA, laptop, mobile phone, iPod or digital camera. For on-line use by travellers still planning to review destinations, plan itineraries, make reservations, and get excited about their trip; For individual article printouts, that is, for printing a list of museums or karaoke bars and putting it in your back pocket for when you need it -- or making a photocopy when someone else does; For ad-hoc travel guides, small fit-to-purpose travel books that match a particular itinerary; For inclusion in other travel books, giving up-to-date information for travel guide publishers. The web site putinbay dot com is CLEARLY a more comprehensive and information resource than the chamber of commerce site. It is open to all to participate without fee or membership. It meets the goals laid out above.

Perhaps a compromise of featuring BOTH web sites and allowing the traveler to decide on their own which resource best serves their needs. After all serving the travelers needs appears to be what we are here for.

No fluffly clouds here, its sunny clear and 86 —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Seriously: Project:External links. We're here to serve travelers by putting information on the Wikivoyage page Put-in-Bay, not pointing to other places where it can be found. Go enjoy the nice day outside. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 10:12, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

It's worth noting WikiPedia:Talk:Put-in-Bay, Ohio, where after several years of edit wars, roundabout arguments, and general bothersome-ness the site currently in question and others were all blacklisted by Wikipedia. I suggest that if the current argument continues that Wikivoyage take a similar approach as this discussion is moot according to current site policies and is distracting people from creating useful travel guides. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 15:38, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

Removed from page
If anyone care to salvage information and reformat, here is some that was added recently:

Put-in-Bay

Itinerary – Two Day

GETTING THERE

The ride from the mainland is half the fun! – Two different ferry boat lines provide service from the mainland to Ohio’s Lake Erie Islands which include The Jet Express, a high speed passenger ferry, and Miller Ferry Lines

Day 1

Island Tour Train Tour

2071 Langram Rd., Put-In-Bay

419.285.4855

A one-hour guided tour of South Bass Island and the Village of Put-in-Bay. Stop-off privileges at several attractions.

Lunch at the Boardwalk

341 Bay View Ave., Put-in-Bay

419.285.3695

Enjoy the view and seafood with cafeteria style options.

Stone Lab on Gibraltar Island

878 Bayview Dr., Put-In-Bay

419.285.1800

Stone Lab on is owned by The Ohio State University and home of the oldest freshwater biological field station in the US. Science and history tours are available.

Perry’s Cave Family Fun Center

2071 Langram Rd., Put-In-Bay

419.285.4855

Cave, butterfly house, antique car museum, or miniature golf. Historic Heineman’s Winery is just across the street.

Enjoy dinner and at a hometown classic.

Day 2

Shopping Island Style – Dozens of specialty shops are located in the downtown area.

Enjoy lunch at one of the harbor side eateries.

Lake Erie Islands Historical Museum

25 Town Hall Pl., Put-in-Bay

419.285.2804

Displays include over 65 ship models; the South Bass Island Lighthouse Fresnel lens; and artifacts from the Battle of Lake Erie, island life and the Ford Tri-Motor and great hotel eras.

Perry’s Victory & International Peace Memorial

93 Delaware Ave., Put-In-Bay

419.285.2184

Our nation’s third tallest memorial structure, honors Commodore Oliver Perry’s victory over the British in the War of 1812.

Doller Estate

392 Bay View Ave., Put-In-Bay

419.285.3343

Situated on the water, directly across from Gibraltar Island, sits the majestic Italian ate residence, the Doller House. It was home to one of Put-in-Bay's wealthiest and most influential citizens, Valentine Doller. Tour the Doller House and Island Life Museum to learn about island living, past and present. Displays include the last remaining island ice house and the 100 year evolution of winter travel across the ice.

Harbor side Dining

Besides the scenery, the village is a known party hang-out. Large numbers of boaters congregate here in summer.

Edgewater Investment Group
While it is unusual for us to specifically call out a business for questionable practices, this talk page is evidence of the problems that have been occurring with edits from Edgewater Investment group to this article for years now. At this point I suspect that a revert-on-sight policy may be warranted. For reference, here are a few additional links that cast further doubt on whether we want this company editing articles about its own properties:

 * WikiPedia:Talk:Put-in-Bay, Ohio - The talk page of the Wikipedia article contains similar content to what is above.
 * - Tripadvisor reviews of the Edgewater Hotel.
 * - This is one person's story, but there are similar tales on other sites.

Based on a whois search, this company is the owner of at least 84 web sites including:

 * mangobay dot tv
 * ohio-put-in-bay dot com
 * ohioputinbay dot com
 * put-in-baygolfcarts dot com
 * put-in-bayonline dot com
 * putinbay dot com
 * putinbayrentals dot com
 * putinbayresort dot com
 * putinbayvillas dot com

In my experience on Wikivoyage it is unusual to have a company be so aggressive about promoting their interests over a period of years, so this article is probably worth watching closely. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:23, 14 February 2010 (EST)

 * That's pretty egregious. Since the Edgewater hotel gets such bad reviews, not even counting the reported scams and the poor on-wiki behavior, it has no place in our travel guides. I'd be tempted to get rid of all the businesses listed above, but for the fact that the resort is clearly the main hotel on the island. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:42, 14 February 2010 (EST)

Despite your personal feelings which should not be expressed here as to what YOU feel is a hotel with acceptable reviews, these are seperate hotels. It is not up to you to determine what is an acceptable number of complaints. You could not form this opinion with any sense of reason without having all of the data such as how many guests have stayed at this hotel over the last 12 years? What percentage does a few bad reviews equal?

If one Marriot hotel has bad reviews (in your opinion) do you remove all Marriot hotels from Wikivoyage? After all they are all owned by the same group? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Please take a good look at Project:Welcome, business owners. Your continued poor behavior on-wiki is just one more metric by which Wikivoyageers will decide whether to list or patronize your business. Anonymous virtual temper tantrums do not and will not reflect well upon your business or upon the businesses for whom you work.

 * To be clear, though, this is not a business directory; it is a collaboratively written travel guide. Travel guides offer business recommendations, based on consumer experiences. Travel writers do research to see what to recommend—I'm basing this removal on two sources: terrible reviews around the web, and your own unsavory marketing practices. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:01, 14 February 2010 (EST)

Well then to be clear since Islander Inn and Grand Islander are owned by the same company lets delete one of them as well. AS you can see here: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g50874-d579318-Reviews-Islander_Inn-Put_in_Bay_Ohio.html They have bed reviews as well. If you are going to apply rules then apply them equally to all and you might find more people would support your position.

Further more, of all the hotels and rentals even listed on the travel guide there are actually only three seperate owners. So what now? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * Despite the strawman arguments, the bottom line is that for several years there have been edits here and on Wikipedia that do not appear to have been made in good faith. I've personally spent a significant amount of time trying to work with this particular business to help them edit within our guidelines, and after several years no longer have any interest in doing so. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:20, 14 February 2010 (EST)

Ok so based on your approval of Peters arguments it will be ok to delete the other hotel with negative reviews. Thanks

There is no "strawman argument" any more than Ryan is peters strawman. The facts are this. If you look at the domain registrations for all the websites listed in the hotels section you will find are listings are owned by three entities. All three entities have multiple listings. All three entities have both positive and negative reviews on Peters quoted source Trip Advisor which anyone with any interent savy knows can be manipulated.

Therefore, all sites by your own statements must be treated in the same manner. If you want to end these ridiculous edit wars, try practicing what you preach. Until then, I doubt you will have much progress in resolving this. Your own bylaws address how this should be managed and either apply all the same rules to everyone or expect it to go on.

 * The community has every right to make decisions on a case by case basis, and have done so in the past. Your continued behaviour on this site, is more of a deciding factor, than what reviews your website gets elsewhere - though, it's another nail in the coffin for sure. Listings on Wikivoyage should be considered a privilege, not a right. And on that basis I'd also like to point out, that Ryan has been championing business owner's opportunity to list themselves on Wikivoyage for a long time, in opposition to other users, like myself, who believe our lenient stance on business owners are harming Wikivoyage in a great way - in that light Ryan's stance on this should put things into perspective.

 * Judging from the latest reaction here, I'd be in favour of a blanket blacklisting on all the groups websites, though, that probably hardly comes as a surprise to anyone. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:18, 15 February 2010 (EST)

Since our anonymous friend has now tried to delete the links above at least four times, it's worth leaving a pointer to Project:Using talk pages, specifically "it's considered bad form to change someone else's posts on a talk page". Unless a comment is hate speech, a copyright violation, or vandalism then it's not going to be removed; posting links in support of an argument that a business isn't editing in good faith meets none of those criteria, so please stop wasting everyone's time by trying to remove them. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:46, 15 February 2010 (EST)

 * Having just read through all of this, I would also consider supporting a blanket blacklist of this company, and its various urls. Stefan hits the nail on head with the privilege point, and this organisation clearly has little respect for that. Ryan has been a champion of the rights of business owners at Wikivoyage, and often I have not been too far behind. When a business shows so little respect and understanding of the ethos of this site though, they do not deserve our support.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:09, 15 February 2010 (EST)

You have brought up a good point, according to Trip Advisors website it IS A COPYRIGHT VIOLATION and I have cut and pasted their terms and conditions so you may see them, thus the removal

TripAdvisor Website Terms, Conditions and Notices Welcome to the TripAdvisor.com website (the “Website”). This Website is provided solely to assist customers in gathering travel information, posting opinions of travel related issues, engaging in interactive travel forums and for no other purposes. The terms “we”, “us”, “our” and “TripAdvisor” refer to TripAdvisor LLC, a Delaware corporation and/or our subsidiaries. The term “you” refers to the customer visiting the Website and/or contributing content on this Website.

This Website is offered to you conditioned upon your acceptance without modification of any/all the terms, conditions, and notices set forth below (collectively, the “Agreement”). By accessing or using this Website in any manner, you agree to be bound by the Agreement. Please read the Agreement carefully. If you do not accept all of these terms and conditions, please do not use this Website. Be sure to return to this page periodically to review the most current version of the Agreement. We reserve the right at any time, at our sole discretion, to change or otherwise modify the Agreement without prior notice, and your continued access or use of this Website signifies your acceptance of the updated or modified Agreement.

USE OF THE WEBSITE As a condition of your use of this Website, you warrant that (i) all information supplied by you on this Website is true, accurate, current and complete, (ii) if you have a TripAdvisor.com account, you will safeguard your account information and will supervise and be completely responsible for any use of your account by anyone other than you and (iii) you are 13 years of age or older in order to register for an account and contribute to our website. TripAdvisor does not knowingly collect the information of anyone under the age of 13. We retain the right at our sole discretion to deny access to anyone to this Website and the services we offer, at any time and for any reason, including, but not limited to, for violation of this Agreement.

'PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES' The content and information on this Website (including, but not limited to, messages, data, information, text, music, sound, photos, graphics, video, maps, icons, software, code or other material), as well as the infrastructure used to provide such content and information, is proprietary to us. You agree not to otherwise modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell or re-sell any information, software, products, or services obtained from or through this Website. Additionally, you agree not to:

(i) use this Website or its contents for any commercial purpose; (ii) access, monitor or copy any content or information of this Website using any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means or any manual process for any purpose without our express written permission; (iii) violate the restrictions in any robot exclusion headers on this Website or bypass or circumvent other measures employed to prevent or limit access to this Website; (iv) take any action that imposes, or may impose, in our discretion, an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure; (v) deep-link to any portion of this Website for any purpose without our express written permission; or (vi) "frame", "mirror" or otherwise incorporate any part of this Website into any other website without our prior written authorization. (vii) attempt to modify, translate, adapt, edit, decompile, disassemble, or reverse engineer any software programs used by TripAdvisor in connection with the Website or the services

—The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs)

 * There seems to be some irony in trying to claim that linking to a site is a copyright violation and then supporting that claim with a cut & paste copy from the same site... anyhow, I'm not going to feed the trolls anymore after this, but for anyone who might be questioning the legality of deep links, see Ticketmaster vs. tickets.com for a ruling that clarified that linking to a web site "is neither copyright violation nor trespass". See also the EFF's position on this issue. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:05, 15 February 2010 (EST)

The initial suggestion of a revert-on-site rule for Edgewater edits, including adding a few links to other sites to support such a suggestion, was made only after years of abuse from this particular business. Since then our anonymous friend continues to remove those links above on a regular basis, and while it's unseemly to do so, I'm getting tired of the constant reverts and propose the following: STOP changing the comments on this page, and I'll refrain from expanding the list above with additional links that would allow editors to better understand why I would like to see this business blacklisted altogether from Wikivoyage. Since our anonymous friend is obviously web savvy, I'm sure you're well aware of some of the reports that are online that make bad tripadvisor reviews look flattering in comparison, so it's up to you. If you'd like to continue abusing our site, consider yourself warned. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:03, 20 March 2010 (EDT)

 * As the links above continue to be removed, I'm going to get rid of all mention of these businesses from Wikivoyage. For anyone who thinks this is overly harsh, the links in this post (some NSFW) should make it clear that, at a minimum, there are some very serious questions out there about this owner that, in addition to his abhorrent on-wiki behavior, merit removal from our site.  Should we continue to face abuse from this owner then I'd go so far as to suggest a warning be added to either the "Sleep" or "Stay safe" section of this article noting problems that other travelers have reported. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:42, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

 * This seems a reasonable move, and I'd support adding the warning straight away, actually. I can't think of a more egregious case of bad faith business-touting on Wikivoyage, and that's saying something. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:47, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

Merge?
An anonymous user just added a merge tag to this article suggesting a merge to Lake Erie Islands, but no reason was given. I'd like to make a speedy removal of this merge suggestion - Put-in-Bay is a hugely popular vacation destination and is just one of the many islands. It has numerous hotels, restaurants, etc, so there is more than enough to justify its own article per What is an article. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I did it, because it seemed to me that a lot of this information overlaps both articles; there was a lot of redundant editing today going on on both. No objection to speedy removal, as long as there is no duplication of listings, and things get kept where they belong. 200.252.135.73 18:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Put-in-Bay is the village on South Bass Island, therefore the information contained in both sections will mostly be the same. I feel they should be merged into one document. —The preceding comment was added by Amadeus (talk • contribs)

 * South Bass Island is a redirect to this article since "Put-in-Bay" is the more commonly used name. At one point there were two articles, but the consensus was that a separate island article didn't make sense - see Talk:South Bass Island. -- Ryan • (talk) • 18:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Put in Bay resort and conference center - on blacklist
I removed this entry on the resort as www.putinbayresort.com it is listed in MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. Does anyone know why it is blacklisted and if the ban is still relevant? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It looks like they were part of a badly behaving group back in 2010 per the investigations of Wrh2 (See topic Edgewater Investment Group) Mbrickn (talk) 17:09, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Put-in-Bay


text:
Talk:Putrajaya

Bumiputras
OK Mr. 202.186.31.190, you've tried to delete the bit about bumiputras three times now. Would you like to explain why? Also, please see Project:Don't tout — we're allowed to say bad things about strange places. (Come to think of it, I'm tempted to add my friend's description "It's like what Pyongyang would be if Kim Jong Il had money" to the article...) (WT-en) Jpatokal 05:22, 31 July 2006 (EDT)

 * Bump. I'm going to keep reverting until you explain yourself. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:39, 6 August 2006 (EDT)

 * I've never heard of this Bumiputra claim. It sounds rather far fetched to me personally... However as I came across other references to it on Google I left the claim in but have modified the statement to make it clear it's just a few people claim. 203.118.157.72 07:00, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Overcapacity in hotels
"There are no budget or midrange options in town, but suffering from acute overcapacity, Putrajaya's luxury hotels offer some of the best deals on the planet. All the hotels are brand new and near-empty, unless there happens to be a big convention in town" ...acute overcapacity? err you guys never been to Putrajaya right? I'm a frequent customer of Equatorial Bangi-Putrajaya, Pullman and Marriot..trust me these hotels are not suffering from any acute overcapacity, even Pullman today is one of the favourite for flight passengers transit at KLIA....this statements is purely assumptions from people who never use these hotels. I'm going to delete this statement...

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Putrajaya


text:
Talk:Puy-de-Dôme

This article seems like a copyvio -- the promotional language and being set up in only two edits. Any idea where it comes from? --(WT-en) Evan 14:41, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Cities?
This is a department. Shouldn't this be a regional article, and among the cities, shouldn't Clermont-Ferrand be listed first? There are some others, n'est-ce pas? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Puy-de-Dôme


text:
Talk:Puy-l'Évêque

To whom it may concern: Any info about this village is helpful. I stayed in it for about 5 days and still know very little about it. I've added as much as I can and am still trying to find out more info, but need help. (WT-en) Sapphire 16:51, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Puy-l'Évêque


text:
Talk:Pyin U Lwin

Read
I put in a couple of books under a section called Read. Couldn't find a standard template or reference format and will be happy to retitle and reformat the section if someone can point me to a decent example.--(WT-en) Wandering 14:45, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

Candacraig
Perhaps we should separate the candacraig entry into two. One entry under See (old colonial mansion, etc. etc.) and one under sleep ($7 is incorrect btw, it should be $40-$50). 203.81.161.151/154, since these are your entries, would you like to do that?--(WT-en) Wandering 10:06, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Pyin U Lwin


text:
Talk:Pyongyang

Elaboration to "Get In" requested...
How to
 * get the paperwork done (Visa, recommendations, costs)
 * what kind of paperwork is required?
 * how to really get there... description is vague
 * where to book? How did you book? Do you need to know somebody? Special reason for the stay required?
 * etc.
 * etc.

 * All of these questions appear to be answered and addressed in the North Korea article --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Understand
This is an important capital city.. surely someone can fill in the 'understand' section? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

 * The 'Understand' section has been empty for a very long time, so I have added some basic content. Hopefully someone can take this as a cue to expand? Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Changes to format
If you disagree with anyone's changes to this article with regards to the formatting, please discuss on this talk page first. "I don't like banners' for example is not constructive and can only lead to edit wars. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That's one way to look at it.
 * Another stance is to suggest that fundamental changes to the article navigation are discussed here first before they're made - especially since I haven't seen you editing this article before. How do you suggest our dear readers navigate to (for example) the Pyongyang section of our article now from this pug-ugly banner?
 * You may want to add your two pennyworth here. -- A l i c e ✉ 22:53, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

 * These changes have been discussed at length at Wikivoyage talk:Banner Expedition and green-lighted for implementation in all articles. If you have a problem with it, go there and speak up. Don't try to choose individual articles as battlegrounds. Texugo (talk) 23:09, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any one summarise a consensus reached (I thought we had a template for that now?) about such a momentous decision. And stop impugning my motives. I've been editing North Korea articles for a long while. An expedition is NOT the place for such a huge change to every article to be announced. The pub would have been a better place. I note that you have not addressed my point about using a "consensus" template on such an important, site-wide change as this. - A l i c e ✉ 23:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the problem is around the communication of the banner policy, and not actually about anyone's motives. Hopefully this can be resolved at a site level. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I would agree that knowing your country's embassy in Pyongyang is a rather important piece of information. On the other hand there are relatively few countries where this would be considered 'must have' information. How about adding a information box at the top of the article in order to address this, and linking to Pyongyang ? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The embassy list comes up clearly on your screen when you click the 'Cope' header, so that should not be an issue. As the others have said, there has been ample time to provide input, with nearly 2 weeks in the Pub and quite a while in the Expedition. Why is the Expedition an incorrect place to discuss sitewide issues? Non-members are not barred from contributing; most who have contributed actually haven't added their name to the members list. Back to Pyongyang, I removed the banner, not because I don't like banners, but because it was the incorrect specs. I explained this in detail at the Pub section where we're discussing the new TOC. JamesA  >talk 10:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi JamesA, your comment is confusing because you are addressing multiple issues at once. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Expedition: This discussion is being very much continued on that page. Please do not address it here any more. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Banner Photo: It would be preferable for you to add your own compliant photo of Pyongyang. (Perhaps by editing the existing one). We will see if a compliant one can be found. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Embassy: As mentioned clearly before, this is a subject area that is more relevant to Pynongyang than most other capital cities. It is not a generic site wide question --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry if it was confusing, most of it was to respond to some of Alice's questions. Though I do notice that you did add the pagebanner that I removed. If you just crop the sides off the banner and resize it down to 2100x300, it'll be fine. JamesA  >talk 12:03, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Alice, if you haven't noticed, that "consensus" template has rather failed to catch on, and at any rate, it has certainly not been established that such a template is required before the community takes action. As JamesA pointed out above, this issue has indeed been made available for comment for quite some time now, both on the expedition page and in the pub. Texugo (talk) 17:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Munsu Water Park
Munsu water park opened in October, and at that time it was unclear when or if foreigners could visit. Using Google, the latest reports suggest that foreigners can enter for EURO 10 at some point in the future. Does anyone know when it would be actually opened for foreigners? (A lot of plans are made in North Korea, although not all of them actually happen) I think the Pyongyang winter will make this question moot until June 2014 at the earliest... Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:08, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Some foreigners have already visited, although generally via invitations from government agencies. The water park is indoors, and has continued to operate during the winter. Ttocslliw (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the insight, although I'm certain that most of the pictures I've seen are clearly outdoors. Is it possible that parts of the facility are indoors? Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

 * The park is now open to foreigners on Saturdays. It costs EURO 7 for indoor access and EURO 10 for indoor and outdoor. On other days its open to locals for 10,000 won per hour. Ttocslliw (talk) 02:02, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

 * That is USD $11 per hour for locals! (official exchange rate). Seems very pricey, but I guess it is not exactly intended for everyone. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

 * The 10,000 won quote is in local currency, rather than equivalent hard currency. That would be roughly USD $1.20 per hour. Ttocslliw (talk) 02:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Bare listings
I'm moving a few listing here that have no information about location. Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:28, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

 * In most other places than North Korea it'd be easy to google those restaurants and get information for all parameters, but now I find just interesting travel stories... ϒpsilon (talk) 09:48, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Yup, I do appreciate that even if we can put detailed geo-coordinates, street addresses and phone numbers down, it wouldn't be that much use because your government appointed minders would still have to arrange it anyway.
 * I just found the listings above really to brief to be useful. For example the Ostrich Farm? North Korea is 'sort of' famous for these farming experiments, but is this actually a restaurant or just some funny anecdote that someone heard second hand and slipped in here? Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:39, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ,, . ϒpsilon (talk) 10:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

"Both of three"

 * Some extremely sought-after North Korean souvenirs are metal lapel badges depicting the faces of one or both of the three Kims.

How can there be "both of three"? JIP (talk) 07:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Because it is a mistake? :) Feel free to correct. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

 * The thing is, I have never been to Pyongyang, so I don't know whether badges depicting Kim Jong-un are available. I don't know whether to correct it to "both of the two Kims" or "all of the three Kims". JIP (talk) 10:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

 * I understand that these lapels are given by the state to individual citizens, and that there is no way for foreigners to get hold of them legally. It may even be inadvisable for a foreigner to actually carry these, even if they are lucky enough to find.
 * I'm not sure of the convention for North Koreans to wear these badges in any set of combinations. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:24, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Pins are of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il, or both. Backgrounds can be red or white, and the shape is typically circular or shaped like a flag. There's a specific design that signifies the person has formally met the pictured leader. They're required in any public situation, although not required when working or playing sports. I read one report of a foreign tourist getting a pin after a small ceremony where he pledged support for the country, but that does not seem like a regular occurrence. Ttocslliw (talk) 02:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

 * So there is no pin for present leader Kim Jong Un, Ttocslliw ? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Not that I've seen. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist, but they don't seem to be common. Ttocslliw (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

 * OK, so I think you can update accordingly. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Further improvements to this article
This is quite a meaty article and would be an interesting and unusual Dotm or Otbp feature (I'd argue for Otbp, as it definitely is not a major destination for foreigners from most countries, and probably from none), but it may not quite be ready yet.

Here are some things I see:

First, I gather there are no street addresses in Pyongyang? Nevertheless, as part of the update of the "Drink" section ("what passed for nightlife has dwindled as foreign aid organisations have left the country during 2009" needs at least a change of tense from "have left" to "left"), can all the places mentioned in the section be given full listings, and can any more specific description be given of the locations of the Taedonggang Brewery Restaurant and Diplomatic Club? I guess giving more specific location descriptions for "See" listings is not possible because they themselves serve as landmarks, and I do see that they are all given coordinates for viewing on the dynamic map.

Second, the "Understand" section seems inadequate. What about some words about the history of the city (not the entire country of North Korea, but the city itself)?

Third, the "Embassies" section has a deprecated style of listings that need to be changed to listing templates.

Anything else you notice? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:42, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

 * It would be great to get the addresses in. I guess the reason there are none is that you wouldn't be expected to find them by yourself, but still we should have them.
 * I think Google Maps actually has fairly accurate listings for Pyongyang from which addresses could be derived. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:32, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page is missing permission
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page is missing permission information and may be deleted: You can see the details at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:07, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Juche Tower.jpg

Recent revert
I don't quite see why you reverted this edit. The Pyongyang Metro has 16 stations, so a single latitude and longitude may not make sense. Am I missing something? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks to me as a redundant, useless, empty edit. As it seems, I am the one who is missing something. I don't really grasp all the subleties of our programming code. I ask respectfully what makes this edit not useless. Ibaman (talk) 14:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The "NA" prevents the listing from making the article show up in Category:See listing with no coordinates. That makes it easier for editors to find and address articles that actually do need coordinates. I'll go ahead and reinstate the edit. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Arch of Reunification
I removed the listing for the Arch of Reunification as it was demolished in January 2024. Since it was an iconic sight, it might be appropriate to mention it in the guide. 219.255.220.75 10:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pyongyang


text:
Talk:Pyramids

Travel topic
IMO, it doesn't matter what content is currently on the page, "pyramids" = a travel topic. As this is a wiki, there is no reason to have unfinished travel topic articles, others will come along and add content. But I'll leave as is, per your request, for the time being. --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald Talk 17:43, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Pyramids


text:
Talk:Qaanaaq

Longyearbyen (78 13N) on the island of Spitsbergen (Svalbard) is the northernmost fully functional civilian settlement. About 50 mi. farther north than Qaanaaq (77 29N).

I found the following confusing:

++++++++++++++++

If you live outside Greenland or do not have Danish citizenship then you must provide the following information:

 * Name
 * Birthday and birthplace (Danish citizens: CPR-number)

++++++++++++++++

According to the first sentance then this is not applicable to Danish citizs, but then the requirements then ask for a CPR number for Danish citizens.

I have removed the '(Danish citizens: CPR-number)' accordingly. Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:37, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Banner
The current one seems a little blurry. But nevertheless, here's some new banners. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:03, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 * What's causing the blackness on the left side of Banner 2? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the edge of a building. I'll crop a new banner cutting out that. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:15, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Have cropped another one without that. -- SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:17, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! My choices are 3, 4, 1. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:20, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no banner 4 (ignore the filename). Did you mean 2a, 3 and 1? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:52, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Rather coincidental that that was the same order I preferred. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, the filenames confused me. My order is 3, 2a and then 1. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 1, 2a, 3, unless we can flatten the sea level. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Which I've done, so my choice is 3a, 2b, 1, 2a, 3. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:55, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Beyond eliminating the black section, I don't really care about the alternates vs. originals or whatever. They're different but I'm not feeling a significant difference in quality or attractiveness, so it doesn't matter to me which version of the different photos is chosen. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I still favor 2a because I liked seeing the top of the mountain range. Then banner 3a and 3. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Qaanaaq


text:
Talk:Qaila Jangi

Comments
This is just a fortress, probably doesn't need it's own page... does anyone know exactly where it is? maybe should just go in the 'get out' section of Mazar-e Sharif. (WT-en) Cacahuate 07:14, 7 December 2006 (EST)

title: Talk:Qaila Jangi


text:
Talk:Qatar

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Qatar/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 17:20, 1 Apr 2005 (EST)

Currency, time and spelling conventions
Below is a proposed infobox to let readers know which formatting conventions to use in Wikivoyage articles. Do you agree with these proposals? If you have direct knowledge of what is most commonly used in the country, please let us know. Ground Zero (talk) 17:59, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved to the top of this page. Ground Zero (talk) 04:39, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Rapprochement with Saudi Arabia?
"Get in" may need updating, in this and possibly other articles:. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Mapshape for Qatar article
I tried doing this but notice that two of the administrative divisions (Ad Dawhah and Al Wakrah do not show up on the dynamic map). Is there any way to fix this? The dog2 (talk) 16:24, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * The mapshapes for both Al Wakrah and Ad Dawhah were stored under the cities that they contain (Al Wakrah City and Doha). I've gone ahead and swapped the wikidata IDs and all boundaries seem to be represented now. -- Wauteurz (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. The dog2 (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Qatar


text:
Talk:Katzrin

So where exactly does this place belong so someone can add a correct isIn tag? Is it Israel or Syria? - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:15, 28 May 2006 (EDT)

title: Talk:Katzrin


text:
Talk:Qenko

This sounds like a pile of rubble... and that Cuzco is the nearest civilization... so I'm thinking maybe it should be mentioned in Cuzco rather than have its own article – (WT-en) cacahuate  talk 02:33, 5 July 2007 (EDT)

 * Merged it in today. Proposing vfd/redirect... (WT-en) WTDuck2 03:42, 14 August 2007 (EDT)

title: Talk:Qenko


text:
Talk:Qeshm

VFD Nomination
This article was once nominated for deletion. The discussion can be found at Project:Votes_for_deletion/April_2008

title: Talk:Qeshm


text:
Talk:Qingdao

"If there is ebb" sounds funny. Ebb is low or descending tide, but the construction implies that ebb is a material ("if there is rubbish"). What's the right way to say this? -(WT-en) phma 17:19, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)
 * I'd be interested in the correct solution, too *g*. Sorry. --(WT-en) EBB 18:07, 2 Aug 2004 (EDT)

 * In english ebb and flood when referring to tides are usually refferred to as ebb tide and flood tide to distinguish from other uses of those words. If I messed up your meaning with my change by all means change it back. -- (WT-en) Webgeer 01:27, Aug 3, 2004 (EDT)

 * No, thanks. This is exactly what I wanted to say. And again I learned something. --(WT-en) EBB 05:51, 3 Aug 2004 (EDT)

Qingdao Travel & Living Guide
I rolled back two links to Qingdao Travel & Living Guide. We normally don't link to external travel guides, preferring to get important information into Wikivoyage rather than linking to it somewhere else. See Project:External links for details. --(WT-en) Evan 05:43, 14 September 2006 (EDT)

Taxi fares
I removed the part about China having instituted a 1RMB "tax" on all Taxi fares requiring riders pay 1RMB above the stated fare. This is certainly not a china-wide policy. It in fact sounds like a way for cab drivers to scam an extra 1 RMB from unsuspecting riders. If someone thinks there is in fact a tax, please provide a link to an article/official website. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) SONORAMA (talk • contribs) 22 November 2006

1 rmb tax on taxi fares in Qingdao
I live and work in Qingdao! There is a 1 rmb "gas" tax on taxi fares in Qingdao. This is not a scam. Again if the meter reads 7 rmb then you must pay 8 rmb, if the meter reads 19 rmb you must pay 20 rmb. Please don't edit something you know nothing about. You can call the Qingdao Transportation Bureau (Traffic Service) at ph: (+86 532) 8281-7777 if you have any questions, be prepared to speak Chinese. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 219.146.94.4 (talk • contribs) 15 December 2006

 * The city has recently removed the 1 rmb "Gas Tax" so if you are headed to Qingdao make sure you have the driver run the meter and pay only what the meter reads. -- 20:09, 27 February 2007 (EST)

 * The Gas Tax is back and probably here to stay! Again you will have to pay an additional 1 RMB on top of what the meter reads.  There is a sticker on the dashboard of all taxis, however it's in Chinese. -- 07:02, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Qingdao Railway Station
Please do not remove the citation to the source of information about the Qingdao Railway Station! This is the most current information provided in English! If you look at the source you will see much more information than what is listed here. If you remove the citation then also remove the information provided by the source. Qingdao China Guide provides the most current information on news that affects travelers and Expats living in Qingdao! —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 218.58.70.90 (talk • contribs)

 * Please read our external links guidelines. --(WT-en) Evan 21:23, 17 December 2006 (EST)

 * If you remove the citation then please remove the information. Travelers on their way to Qingdao should be able to find the original current information in English regarding transportation. I understand your concerns and feel perhaps the removal of less important links such as (MyKAL, ZhanShan Temple) is warranted.

WiKi Travel
WiKi Travel prides itself on the dissemination of NEW travel information. KEEP IT REAL!
 * if anyone travels to QD and has new info...please post.

RMB to CNY
RMB updated to CNY.
 * The ISO 4217 abbreviation is CNY, although also commonly abbreviated as "RMB". The Latinised symbol is ¥. Perhaps RMB may confuse some traveler's during the the upcomming 2008 games while they try to exchange currancies at local banks.
 * Let's keep it RMB. RMB (Ren Min Bi) is the standard way to express amounts in Chinese currency in English writing.  CNY may be used by bankers but is of no relevance whatsoever to travelers.  Repeat: If we're trying to keep things simple and avoid confusion, use RMB.

There was discussion at Talk:China leading to the conclusion that ¥ should be used throughout. (WT-en) Pashley 01:41, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

Please DO NOT remove sources to original information
If travel information is added to wikivoyage, the original source to the information should be cited. It is not cool, or even professional, to remove the source of original information.

Thanks

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that external links in listings should only be to primary sources, which I believe these are not. The web site you link to might be the official web site for the destination, but then it should be linked to only once, within the first sentence of the article, immediately after the name of the destination. Please explain why you think these links should be included in the listings. --(WT-en) ClausHansen 11:23, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

 * You are absolutely correct. Wikivoyage is not Wikipedia, we do not need to "cite" sources. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:28, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

 * It's not so much that Wikivoyage "needs" to cite sources, but rather it would make the page more credible and allow others to get current updates from the original source of the data (statistical facts, figures, dates, times, etc.).

Information Piracy
It is obvious that users have been taking data from specific websites and posting it here on WikiTravel. People find the information useful otherwise they wouldn't post it here! It is unethical to remove the cited source of information regardless of the external links guide line. Besides this really has nothing to do with the external link guides lines at all, and if so, then someone should take a long hard look at revising them.

Why can't you give credit to the original author of something that is obviously useful to the travel community?

 * We do credit the authors who add information, see . If the exact wording is being copied from another site, that's a copyright violation and it will be deleted; however, copying "information" in your own words is perfectly fine, since train schedules etc are not copyrighted. (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:07, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

 * WikiTravel gives credit to anyone including those who have plagiarized from other sites. In most communities around the world, plagiarism is not accepted.  I guess it would be impossible to verify whether or not the information posted on the ‘article’ page was from users who have actually visited the location.  Anyway, that's the nature of the wikiBeast.

 * No, we do not accept copy-pastes from other sites, because that would be a copyright violation. However, your site does not have the monopoly on (say) the train station's phone numbers, which can be verified eg. here: 24小时咨询电话：（0532）6011111 青岛站定票电话：2962777 (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:54, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

 * ...and by the way, I can't believe you've been harping on about this since 2006! (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:56, 10 September 2009 (EDT)
 * ?? I have used wikivoyage several times in the past few days due to recent travel plans. Currently in TS and heading to QD on the way to Korea. Anyway back to the matter of plagiarism. I'm happy you found "a source"...but I can't read Chinese and if you use the info on the 'article page' you should cite the source.  Is it correct? Did you verify the information? Do they speak English?  No worries, I'll report on this later.  Back to the issue at hand, wikiTravel is guilty of allowing plagiarism.  Guidelines should require users, as well as administrators, to cite the sources of statistical data.

 * Dude, I can't read Chinese, but I can surely read the date 自2001年10月21日零时执行 of your source. Why would you cite anything from that page? Get a grip! The train schedules have changed since 2001.  I used this  for accurate information which was Last Updated ( Thursday, 03 September 2009 ).

 * Travel guides don't use footnotes. The link you are adding is a violation of our external links policy. Factual data like timetables, phone numbers, prices, etc. cannot be copyrighted, while the presentation of factual data can be—I don't see any violation here.

 * More importantly, please do not edit war—it makes you look more like a troll, and less like someone acting in good faith to address a grievance. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:39, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

The information on Qingdao Underwater World was directly copied from Qingdao China Guide. Several parts have been copied word for word including complete sentences. This is ridiculous! This is NOT the first time that information has been directly lifted from Qingdao China Guide and placed on wikiTravel. In fact, all of the bus line information has also been lifted from QCG. WikiTravel is not the only guilty site. Google it. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 123.234.232.72 (talk • contribs)

 * Have a look back through the history. See that the text was like a year ago.  See this edit, which changed just a word here and there, which you claim is lifted directly.  While you are looking through the history, see how much time and effort various people have put into patrolling this article to remove external links that are against policy, each time taking the time to explain to you how and why, with links being added at various points throughout the article.  --(WT-en) inas 00:51, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * In particular, note that the specific edit you just removed was added to Wikivoyage on 16 August 2006 by a long-standing contributor, whereas there's no record of it on thatsqingdao until sometime after 10 January 2008, as earlier versions of their page did not contain any such text.  There may well be some copying involved, but I don't think it's in the direction you claim it is.   - (WT-en) Dguillaime 00:57, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

The following text, ("Consists of four main areas on both sides of Laiyang Road connected by an underground passage. There is a moving platform that takes visitors through a tunnel in the aquarium itself that provides a spectacular 360 degree view. Located next to beach #1, a morning at the aquarium and a late afternoon at the beach make for a great summer day. Do not miss the popular mermaid shows!"), was copied word for word from Qingdao Underwater World. Bottom Line: Information copied word-for-word should be cited. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) 123.234.232.72 (talk • contribs)

 * Did you read the paragraph just above? The evidence suggests that your site copied it from WT, not the other way around.  - (WT-en) Dguillaime 01:51, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Not my site. BTW, that's a cool tool (web.archive.org). Anyway, please take a closer look. The current text on wikiTravel was copied word-for-word from here. Why not put back the original text from here. Why did the recent user even change the text? It is apparent that the new revision was copied word-for-word. I suggest that the text from here be used and that further activity on this page be monitored.

 * After further review, with (web.archive.org), it is also apparent the ALL of the bus line information (example: LuXun GongYuan: #6, #26, #202, #214, #223, #228, #231, #304, #311, #312, #316, #321, #501, #801) was also copied from Qingdao China Guide and used on wikiTravel. Please have a look. At least the user moved the stop name to the end so that it was not copied verbatim for wikiTravel's beach listings. Where did this information come from? I suspect it was copied from QCG. We should ask for an honest answer from the user who posted it.

The root of this problem lies in the fact that most the edits to this page come from users who have scoured the internet rather than actually visited the place being edited or added. This is NOT what wikiTravel is all about, or is it? Travelers who have actually visited the city should post their experiences and add new content. Again, I suspect that lots of details have been gathered from other sites rather than from the actual establishment be edited or added.
 * I can see it now, wikivoyageers all over the world waiting at attractions writing down the numbers of the buses that go past. --(WT-en) inas 03:44, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Thanks! you just proved my point. The bus route information was lifted from another site and copied almost verbatim. Someone had to write down the bus stop name and numbers and it most certainly was NOT the user who posted it here.  Doesn't the original author deserve credit for publishing this logistical data? This is not ethical nor should be allowed. Stop taking data from other websites with out proper citation.  The idea here is that users should be travelers who have actually visited the location being edited and add original information.
 * I'd like to remind the That's QD guy that Wikivoyage's talk pages are not indexed by search engines, so spamming links to your site here will not help its SEO. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:39, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You make lots of assumptions. Links were placed for easy reference so those who would like to form their own opinion don't have to Google it. SEO ?? I'm a real traveler currently in Shandong on my way to QD, the weather here is currently rainy and I thus have lots of time to get to the root of this problem. The wikiBeast should be checked before it gets out of control. This problem, that should be addressed, is not just localized to this page.

 * Oh, we've only made one assumption - that your agenda is having a link to your website on the Quingdao page. Unfortunately it's against our policy (see Project:External links), as long as that policy is in effect that is not going to happen - if you want to see that policy changed, the only way is to gather consensus for a change on this page, which I very much suspect is not going to happen. As for your concerns - Wikivoyage has a long and proud tradition of dealing quickly and swiftly with copyright violations as soon as they are discovered - even with content we would really like to see added here, since legality takes precedence over everything on Wikivoyage. The fact that none of the admins who have posted here have found any reason for concern, should make rest assured that we are not dealing with a copyright breach in this case. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 05:20, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * No, you have made several assumptions--let me correct you.
 * 1)IT IS NOT MY SITE. 2)THIS IS NOT ABOUT LINKS. 3)SEO? WHAT?
 * Facts: Some WikiTravel users have taken material from other sites, namely QCG, and posted it here. You can use (web.archive.org) to verify this. The bus line data was taken from QCG almost verbatim. I have used their website in the past because they were the only website that published these details. I was somewhat shocked to find them on WT without any reference.  This is information piracy, it is unethical and is generally refereed to as plagiarism.  It is appalling to think that the administrators of this organization would condone this type of behavior and ignore the questions at hand by constant reference to WT guidelines. Again, information has been taken from other websites without reference and it needs to be removed.  BTW, it's Qingdao NOT Quingdao.

 * 1) I think you are lying, 2) Fine, but this whole thing started out with you wanting links back to the porpoised "original" source, 3) SEO. 4) Sorry about the typo. 5) Have a good rainy day. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 06:35, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * As the author of the orginal entry about the Qingdao Aquarium, I can say that it is my own original writing, based on my trip to Qingdao, and not previously published anywhere. I'm flattered that it has apparently been copied to another web site.  As for this troll hurling obviously unwarranted accusations of copying at us,  sounds like he either just wants the attention from starting a fight with us or he's trying to promote another web site in stupid and misguided way.  Whatever his motives are, I say ignore "it' and "it" will go away. (WT-en) SONORAMA 06:55, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Great! I'm glad at least someone other than my self here has actually visited QD. I'm also flattered that you think QCG is my site.  It looks like a lot of hard work by locals was put into providing valuable information that people including myself find useful.

 * It's too bad that there is not a third party site that has complete web archives on both pages. Anyway I agree this is becoming a waste of time, but there is no need for name calling, I guess being called a "troll" is better than me calling someone else an "asshole" -- either of which don't help resolve current issues.

 * Further it appears that (WT-en) ClausHansen has lifted the bus route details from QCG. This can be verified using (www.archive.org) which unfortunately has limited data. This has not been addressed.   Evidence shows that recent updates to wikiTravel have been gained by users scouring the internet for current info, and plagiarizing it here. I don't give a shit about links, this is about the fact that some users on Qingdao WikiTravel have not been ethical.  And yes I do want some attention paid to this issue. Ideally, additions & edits to pages should be from users who have actually visited the city and not by "wiki-trolls" scouring the web.

 * (WT-en) SONORAMA is a well-established contributor here, and his word ends this discussion, as far as I'm concerned. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 08:15, 11 September 2009 (EDT)
 * And who are you? I was never pointing fingers at (WT-en) SONORAMA. Please read all the issues at hand carefully before taking this on another tangent.

 * Can someone please take a rational look at this situation? It would be very simple to resolve. first, admit that information does get taken from specialized travel sites and placed on wikiTravel, and second why not just use (WT-en) SONORAMA's original text? This issue has been continued below.

 * We are using SONORAMAS original text, as you've been told no less than two times above by yours truly. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 04:38, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Issue resolved below. This afternoon I had a great day at the beach here in QD and will post some new info after the cooling of period has passed. Thanks--117.136.9.35 08:12, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Proof of Information Piracy
I just Googled the text which I think was copied from QCG. How can you explain the results? It appears that wikiTravel users have copied the text since WT's page is not even indexed yet. Here are the bus line details that were also directly copied. When these results are compared to the current Qingdao wikiTravel page it confirms that information was directly copied from QCG. Here are the results for (WT-en) SONORAMA's original text. It seems that QCG did not copy any of (WT-en) SONORAMA's material.

 * Oddly enough this entry was done by yet another user trying to sneak in links to That's Qingdao, I'm going to revert to the original version that was there before this pestilence of a website starting messing about our pages. sigh. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:44, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Indeed, in the entirely likely event that whomever kept adding those links is affiliated with TQ, they could quite legally place their own text under WT's license. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 02:06, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

 * It has nothing to do with any particular website(s). Some wikiTravel users are to blame, and I doubt they have any connection with QCG.  Why would someone copy there own material and put it on other sites knowing that Google penalizes websites that practice information piracy.  Perhaps this was some form of "black-hat" SEO.  Anyway the Google results generally don't lie.  "Pestilence of a website" -- you must be referring to Qingdao WikiTravel.  Why does everyone seem to resort to name calling rather than addressing the issue?  I would recommend looking into (WT-en) ClausHansen posts. The above Google results show what text has been directly copied.

 * Well, who without a vested interest would change the link to from the official website to thatsqingdao's? I think claiming its just a regular user is a bit far fetched no? In any case we have reverted back to the original wikivoyage content, so I consider this issue closed. If you find any more vandalism the good folks over at thatsqingdao have commited here, let us know, and we'll deal with it accordingly.

 * And just in case you really are who you say you are, you have missed the whole struggle of keeping that website from sneaking in links to their website, which is a long-standing issue, and might go a long way explaining our hostile attitude towards them, since they/you just don't take no for an answer --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 12:03, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * I really don't have a clue what you are talking about. I don't work for any website, I'm a concerned traveler, you can read the discussion above, who is not happy with the direction that wikiTravel is taking. Information has been taken from other sites and this needs to resolved and hopefully never happen again.  I would still not assume that the folks at QCG were behind this.  What do they have to gain? I just checked google again and here are the the results.  I hope someone over at wikiTravel will take a hard look at it's users.  I would still like to know where (WT-en) ClausHansen got his bus line details from? I suspect he too got them from QCG.  It seems that I have been attacked for bringing up genuine issues and concerns of plagiarism.  Good night for now, I have a long day of travel ahead... Will be in QD tomorrow.

 * I don't know where he got them from, but I suspect you might be right in assuming they are from TQD.com, which if true is fine, information such as telephone numbers, addresses, route and exit numbers, bus numbers, location names, prices, schedules etc. is public and factual information, and not subject to copyright as mentioned in the previous discussion. Opposite; reviews, route descriptions are - as they count as expressive content rather than factual information. You can read more about that here --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 13:15, 11 September 2009 (EDT)

 * You say you are concerned with the direction WT is taking? Have you made any edits here from your travels apart from to add links to that other website?  If you are genuinely concerned for WT, and are going are on your way to QD, please add the information you find there, improve WT, and make your own issue go away.  --(WT-en) inas 01:08, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Yes, I have been following this page for several years now and have made several additions and corrections. I have done extensive traveling throughout Asia & South East Asia and have used wikiTravel pages on several occasions. In the past, I have not signed up with a user name because I think it is important that people realize that edits and additions are being made by travelers that are actually in the area.  If you use a user name your true location and identity are hidden.

 * But what does that matter, lets address the issue...it looks like some wikiTravel users have directly boosted information from other sites and placed the info here. Please see above. Now it appears that some administrative users are trying to avoid the issue because they can't give a rational explanation or proof of concept.  I'm currently in QD and would update a few things on the page but it seems edits are not allowed.

My anonymous friend:

Raw data like bus routes, train schedules, hanzi, pinyin etc is not copyrightable, it can be legally copied from anywhere. Do you understand? Yes or no?

Now, if you find textual content that has been copied from any other site into Wikivoyage, let us know and we'll take care of it.

If you would like to contribute something useful, then plunge forward, but if your idea of "updates" is deleting random bits of raw data, then no, that's vandalism and is definitely not allowed. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:50, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

A user name is anonymity, you can check my IP to find out where I am. Again, I just Googled the text which I think was copied verbatim from QCG. How can you explain the results? It appears that some wikiTravel users have copied the text verbatim since WT's page is not even indexed yet. Here are the bus line details that were also directly copied. When these results are compared to the current Qingdao wikiTravel page it confirms that information was directly copied from QCG. Here are the results for (WT-en) SONORAMA's original text. It seems that QCG did not copy any of (WT-en) SONORAMA's material. In general, Google indexes the original text first, and if other sites copy the same text they are most always found much lower in the search results. In the above case, http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Qingdao is not even indexed. Google also penalizes sites who practice this sort of behavior. It is quite obvious that Google's servers know which sites posts original text and which sites copy them verbatim. Later, I'm off to the beach.--117.136.9.35 02:23, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

 * As Dguillaume already demonstrated, SONORAMA made their addition to Wikivoyage in 2006, while QCG plagiarized the text sometime after 2008, since this January 2008 snapshot of their site doesn't contain the text. Maybe you should be bugging QCG for an apology? (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:38, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

 * Actually Dguillaume demonstrated that the bus line details were copied verbatim from QCG January 2008 snapshot and placed on WT here . So if one copies this information verbatim what would stop them from coping text which is copyrighted? I don't think anyone needs to apologize, If you compare the two texts as done above(QCG and SONORAMA), they are not that similar (at least according to Google).  The (web.archive.org) results are incomplete and their site (QCG) has drastically changed since then.

 * Last night I wasted a lot of time with this because I felt that WT was giving QCG a hard time. I have used their site in the past and found it to be an invaluable resource when planning trips to QD. Likewise, I have also used some of the WT pages on travels to Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos and found them extremely helpful. At this point I really don't care if WT leaves the text that appears to be copied from QCG on it's site.  Google has indexed it and given authenticity to the appropriate party.

 * I have always felt that additions and edits to WT pages should be done by travelers and hope more people take the time to add their travel experiences. I would still not condone taking anyone's data without citation. This is not allowed in educational nor international business circles. It is not professional and I think wikiTravel should set higher standards. Realize the facts and move on.--117.136.9.35 08:01, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * If anyone needs to "move on", it's you. Chances are the other website and our contributors both got the information from the same public sources.  Even if not, information is not copyrightable, only a specific presentation of that information.  (WT-en) LtPowers 09:21, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I've taken the time to read through all the related posts to this fiasco, and would just like to remind anyone who might be reading this and perhaps new to WT, we're interested in any info. any of you might have to share. You don't don't have to be currently traveling or even visited a location to share some insight that might be able to help out a fellow reader. It's possible lots of info. on WT could change within a very short time period and make a particle article outdated, but the advantage to the Net is the changes are more likely to take effect sooner than perhaps a printed guide. Plunge forward!(WT-en) Zepppep 14:48, 8 September 2010 (EDT)

Alternative banner for this article?
I have previously created an alternative banner for this article (which was initially created for the parallel article at the Hebrew Wikivoyage, but I decided to suggest we'll use it here at the English Wikivoyage article as well). Which banner do you prefer that we'll use on the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I prefer the existing banner. The alternative one looks too generic. STW932 (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a bustling city of 9 million people though ... would you also choose to put a banner of a beach in the article of New York City or London? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:41, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to support the new banner, for the same reasons laid out by its proposer -- it's much more representative of what Qingdao is. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 14:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Is it? Should all articles for major Chinese cities have skyline banners? The article says "Qingdao is an ideal destination if you want to combine sea-side fun with your trip to China. If you are looking for the typical congested Chinese scenario with swarming markets, unpredictable traffic and intense street commerce, Qingdao has little to offer." —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:37, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Dunno, though, it's a very interesting skyline and certainly looks distinctive to me. I was going to say I favored the new banner until I read your comments, so I'm torn. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:30, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I recognize your comments, but the new banner gets across some of the city's uniqueness in that respect too -- it's obviously set on a bay. It's quite an interesting/non-generic skyline, as Ikan Kekek notes. I think the current banner would be much more appropriate for a district than a whole-city article. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 10:38, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

 * I prefer the new one, per ויקיג'אנקי and Vaticidalprophet.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Vaticidalprophet, note that there are no district articles for this city, in case that would change your view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I was referring to hypothetical districts -- I specifically checked the page to see if there were any. (A tier 2 city not having districts is, unfortunately, emblematic of our general biases.) Vaticidalprophet (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it has nothing whatsoever to do with "biases". There is but one standard on whether to district a city on this site: the traveller comes first. Karachi is one of the most populous cities in the world, but we don't district it because almost all the sights a tourist would be interested in would be in only one district. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * And if you would like to district this city, please propose the districts and tell us how many listings you'd anticipate being in each article. Cities are districted only when the city article is getting too long and unwieldy to serve travelers well and the listings are distributed sufficiently for it to make sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * And by the way, the city isn't districted in Chinese Wikivoyage, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think my 'biases' statement may have been misinterpreted as more hostile than it was meant, for which I apologise. I'm referring only to the fact English-speaking Western sources will tend towards much more detail on topics more approachable to them than equivalent topics outside the West. zhvoyage is a very small project, with only 48 people on the (quite liberally defined) active users list, and many of them are global sysops or other Meta people -- I'd expect many of its pages to be quite sparse compared to major Chinese travel guides. If Qingdao were districtified, I'd expect at least a 市南区 (Shinan, downtown core), 市北区 (Shibei, port and a mix of new development and the historical parts of the city), 李沧区 (Licang, major horitculture region) and some roughly defined 'other urban/suburban' and 'rural'. I'm not proposing imminent districtification, because I too fall into that bias. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:02, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There are people who participate on this Wiki who either currently live in China or have recently lived there. We could start a districts discussion as a separate topic on this page and see what others think of the idea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven't been to Qingdao yet, but based on what I've seen on certain Chinese travel websites, I'm fairly confident that Qingdao is a city that could be districtified in the future. Below are some stats on the number of attractions in each administrative district according to Boya Travel (博雅旅游):
 * * Shinan District: 120 attractions
 * * Shibei District: 40 attractions
 * * Huangdao District: 72 attractions
 * * Laoshan District: 72 attractions
 * * Licang District: 16 attractions
 * * Chengyang District: 50 attractions
 * * Jimo District: 56 attractions
 * * Jiaozhou City: 100 attractions
 * * Pingdu City: 40 attractions
 * * Laixi City: 80 attractions —The preceding comment was added by STW932 (talk • contribs)

 * Thanks. That's quite a lot of attractions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Does this need districts?
QD is a rather large city (over 7 million) and Shinan District already has the beginnings of an article, linked from Shandong but not from QD. Just add a link? Merge Shinan into QD & redirect? Split the city into districts including Shinan? Something else? Pashley (talk) 13:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 * That was my thought when unorphaning this article –, what are your thoughts on this? -- SHB2000  (talk | contribs | meta) 13:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is large enough, then a separate page is warranted. 7m people is large enough, certainly. Although I find Chinese administrative terms confusing (towns in cities, etc.). Piotrus (talk) 13:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain if those terms sometimes confuse Chinese, but they certainly often confuse visitors. See Talk:Fuzhou & the pages it links to for previous discussion. Pashley (talk) 14:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the decision on whether to districtify a city article is supposed to be based on the amount of content, not on the size of the city. As I indicated in the previous discussion, I do believe Qingdao should eventually be districtified, but at the present time, the article doesn't yet have enough content. I would therefore support merging Shinan District with Qingdao, at least for the time being. One final point: Shinan District is not just another district. It's the city's core district and includes the downtown area, so having a separate article on Shinan District at this stage seems highly problematic. STW932 (talk) 13:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We also currently have articles on Huangdao District, Qingdao City and Laixi, both of which belong to Qingdao. I believe Huangdao District should be merged with Qingdao for the time being, as it's part of the main urban area. Laixi, however is over 100 km from the CBD and is considered a separate urban centre, so it seems there's a good case for retaining our Laixi article but I would like to see Laixi included in a districtified Qingdao. STW932 (talk) 09:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikivoyage syntax for district articles would be Qingdao/Huangdao. Of course, if the best course of action is to merge and redirect to Qingdao, please go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m in two minds about that since I know that Huangdao could certainly become a viable district article in the future. It’s just a matter of someone like myself finding the time to add additional content. I wish there was a way to shift articles that we don’t necessarily want published yet into some sort of draft mode. STW932 (talk) 07:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You can easily do that by starting the district articles in your user space, such as User:STW932/NameOfDistrict. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I’ll go ahead and do just that. Please let it be known that all users are free to edit any draft pages in my user space. STW932 (talk) 10:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The newly created draft page for Huangdao District can be found here: User:STW932/Huangdao. STW932 (talk) 10:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I merged Shinan District into Qingdao. Huangdao District, Qingdao City could be a separate article because it is across the harbour by ferry, but the only two real listings ar beaches. Ground Zero (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Qingdao


text:
Talk:Quad Cities

Am I the only person editing this page from the area? There was some push to call the area the "quint cities", but it never caught on. Whether it is seen as having four or five anchor cities depends on your perception of each area's value. Most of the people I've known agree th that bettendorf,davenport,moline,east moline and rock island compose the "quad" cities. I've heard alternating accounts that bettendorf didn't really spring up until the seventies or eighties, long after the term "quad city" was employed, and that East Moline seceded from Moline sometime in the eighties, also after the origination of the term. Ones view of which cities compose the "quad" cities probably centers around whichever view of history one adheres to. Its all rather unimportant though...i assure you, no one inside the 80/280 beltway, and very few in the surrounding communities hesitate to lable themselves with the term "Quad Citians".

The "island" is the rock island aresenal, a large munitions manufacturing campus.

I've started this page as a small region containing the 4 cities. There's some argument to be made to have it just be a large virtual city; I'll let people with more smarts about the 4Cs make that call. --(WT-en) Evan 08:11, 19 Jan 2005 (EST)

map with sleep ideas
Here's a map of the 4 of them. Note how the four downtown sections center around the island which is where the four of them join. -- (WT-en) Mark 09:51, 19 Jan 2005 (EST)

title: Talk:Quad Cities


text:
Talk:Qualla Boundary

Redirect?
Does it serve much purpose, from a traveler's point of view, to have separate entries for both the Qualla Boundary and Cherokee, North Carolina? Is anyone likely to plan a trip to the Qualla Boundary without also visiting Cherokee? I suggest setting one to redirect to the other. --(WT-en) Eoghanacht 11:36, 25 Aug 2005 (EDT)

title: Talk:Qualla Boundary