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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2017/August

Update logo
I don't know if this is a right place but I would like to start discussion or voting whether to update Wikinews logo so it uses PNG rendered from File:WikiNews-Logo-en.svg. There is a task on Phabricator, so local community should say whether they agree or disagree with this. Thanks. --Obsuser (talk) 20:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * A detail: The project name should be "Wikinews", as one word with only the first letter in upper-case, not "WikiNews" in . I'm unclear on what you are proposing to do, and why.  Could you explain further?  --Pi zero (talk) 21:41, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for commenting. It is not that much important what is the filename on Wikimedia Commons (many Wikinews logo filenames are formatted as "WikiNews-Logo-xx.svg" and that can be changed by requesting mass rename there).
 * This proposal is to update the logo itself, so that it uses PNG image generated from File:WikiNews-Logo-en.svg – updated file (there is very small difference relatively to current logo but for consistency it should be updated as all other Wikimedia project logos are). I hope it is clear now, community just needs to confirm that proposed logo version is OK... --Obsuser (talk) 21:48, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to the proposal in its current form. The proposed image users ugly s on the letters.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:12, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, that can easily be fixed (removed or improved). Are there any other objections? --Obsuser (talk) 22:16, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Dang it, Pi Zero... Logos should not use drop shadows. -  Amgine | t 22:14, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I quite agree, Amgine; apologies if I was insufficiently clear: there should be no drop shadows.  I see, as remarked elsewhere, nothing wrong with File:WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg (except for the use of camel case).  --Pi zero (talk) 22:23, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * So, to remove shadow i.e. to use File:WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg. I see something wrong with it: icon is not updated, compare colors etc. (File:Wikinews-logo.svg as official should be used).
 * Do you agree with File:WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg with File:Wikinews-logo.svg as icon, with normalized width and one more thing: corrected letter K so it has straight line (you can see this one is going to the left a bit)? I will redesign it like this in the next few days if you agree. --Obsuser (talk) 04:10, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * 's WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg does not have drop shadows. It does need the 'K' repaired. The colors are correct to Wikinews-logo-en.png, which is the actual official logo. Because there is no benefit to en.WN in changing the file I would advise the project against changing the file. -  Amgine | t 21:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does not have drop shadows and there was a valid comment that logos should have no drop shadows. Also, File:Wikinews-logo.svg is official icon (globe etc.) logo. Benefit is to have consistent logos for all en. projects (PNGs created from existing SVGs). Do you have an existing SVG for Wikinews-logo-en.png? I guess no, maybe I'm wrong... That's why it should be updated (shadow, official globe, consistency/SVG). --Obsuser (talk) 02:01, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
 * No, File:Wikinews-logo.png is the official logo, which was cropped from File:Wikinews-logo-en.png because some gudgeon lost the original-as-voted-on logo, if I recall correctly. The svg file you linked to is widely used within the WMF outside this project, but it is slowly changing and has not been reapproved by community members of the project.
 * There is zero direct benefit to this language of Wikinews in changing the logo: a .png file of approximately the same number of bytes will be served regardless (except to those of us who use Cologne Blue skin, long may it survive!!, which loads no project logo.) There is some benefit to the WMF if the project uses an svg: it is easier for the WMF - and no one else - to alter. That is, changing the logo to the .svg reduces the local community's ability to alter (or resist alterations) of the logo. (e.g. the svg logo was last updated in 2012, the png was last updated in 2005, shortly after the logo contest.) -  Amgine | t 02:44, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * File:Wikinews-logo.png is currently official logo for English Wikinews but File:Wikinews-logo.svg is official Wikinews icon for *whole WMF. If it has not been reapproved here (and maybe needs to), it would be convenient to do that now (colors are better, map more detailed etc. – no reason to decline it).
 * I would not look at this as "zero direct benefit". Bytes in PNG are not of primary or any importance; what is important is that we have SVG used for generating PNG, and it does not reduce ability to alter in the future but increases it (and resisting alterations is not needed because updates of local file are not same as this – now it's about updating static image via Phab request).
 * User Pi zero suggested that there should be no drop shadow, and it's correct because no other en sister project has drop shadows in its logo; this would be resolved by updating en.wikinews logo.
 * If something is useful for WMF, it must be for en.wikinews too because *en.wikinews is part of WMF and cannot seek its own interests beside WMF. One more important benefit is that other language projects may want to have icon exactly centered so that only text is altered/translated, and this is not possible if they don't have SVG to translate it (translating text in PNG or editing it anyway is not possible, only SVG from which PNGs are created). I'm user from sr.wikipedia and want to update all sr sister projects logo, including sr.wikinews; if en.wikinews logo does not have SVG, it is not possible to create neither SVG nor PNG for sr.wikinews logo in a way that globe icon stays exactly same and in same position; if en.wikinews logo gets its SVG from which PNG used as static image (that is the image displayed as any WMF wiki logo and can be changes only by Phab request or those from Phab or other place with authority) is generated, then it will be possible for all other language versions of Wikinews to update their logos so that globe is the same one (File:Wikinews-logo.svg) and exactly in the same place, with text changed only (also, it is useful to have font in file desc on Commons, so that translators know which font to use; as it is case with File:WiktionaryEn.svg i.e. File:WiktionaryEn - DP Derivative.svg – same, only removed puzzles). WMF will probably one day create official guidelines for all sister projects (which will apply for all languages); currently, there is only guideline for en.wikipedia logo.
 * I will shortly update file and display it here as a proposal so that we see what are practical objections. Also, are there other users to join this discussion? I don't see it convenient that three users decide this (especially if one takes into account that one of them is the one proposing change and second one opposing it). --Obsuser (talk) 05:24, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

You can see updated version above. Differences are that File:Wikinews-logo.svg (which is almost same as current logo but more detailed and correct) is used as icon because is it is official icon, and that drop shadow is removed from text (text is from File:WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg with corrected letter K); everything is vertically aligned according to the current logo (PNG of which is 800 × 615 pixels compared to possible 800 × 600 pixels resolution of the proposed logo version SVG; this is other benefit, to have common resolution such as 1.3333 compared to uncommon 1.3008), and horizontally to the center (current logo has icon and text horizontally misaligned).

I've already noted that there will be no major changes but it is important to update it so that other projects can have SVG to translate (in order to have exactly aligned icon), beside benefits for en.wikinews itself such as drop shadow removal, better globe and centering. --Obsuser (talk) 06:12, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

 * I said that the drop shadow was bad; that is not any sort of endorsement of the whole concept, which I opposed and of course wanted more information about. I find Amgine's comments compelling; at this time, I oppose any change.  (A general observation, though I fully expect it to be disbelieved because nobody wants to hear it:  The Foundation has spent its entire existence promoting initiatives that would help their centralization agenda and therefore necessarily damage the volunteer communities; no surprise the volunteer communities have experienced such broad-based negative growth during that time.  Pro-centralization proposals should by this time be highly suspect.  It's way past the "fool me twice, shame on me" stage.)  --Pi zero (talk) 12:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You complained on "ugly drop shadows on the letters" and Amgine responded with "Logos should not use drop shadows." – can you explain why do you "oppose any change" (do you really oppose any change?! do you have right to do that?) and why do you bold oppose(d) two times only in this comment (that's not nice behaviour)?
 * Everyone should hear and respect other's opinion. Regarding you observation, I would not agree that "centralization" (I'd say interwiki connection or cooperation) can damage the volunteer communities by any means (it can only make content more correct, neutral, better – because local communities could not make national or even ethnic/religous wikis which really must be global and neutral with focus only on language i.e. translation of same true referenced content); also, I don't see how would it be possible that number of editors decreased if someone tried connect all of them globally so that they can share everything, learn languages, communicate and cooperate. Why do you bold "highly", I guess italics or underline would be enough and more appropriate if you wanted to ephasize it (etiquette); can you explain what is wrong or suspicious about one user proposing logo update from various reasons (improving that wiki logo itself, on one side; and making possible for icon to be in same place etc., on other side). Who fooled you and how could someone fool you by logo update? If one has Adobe Illustrator, Inkscape or other similar program for editing SVGs, one can check every part of the logo to see smallest differences, alignment etc. – as well as check SVG code itself (everything is open and not secret). --Obsuser (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention, it does seem confusion could be created by the word "oppose" being bolded more than once, so I unbolded the one that doesn't directly refer to my current position. Most (if not all) forms of control centralization damage the volunteer communities; interwikis are a classic example, where a centralized repository of information could, in principle, be designed so as to empower local users and improve local quality, but, in the event, centralization of control was prioritized above quality improvement and in opposition to empowerment.  The damaging centralization of control is hard to combat because, besides flowing (inevitably) from the inherently centralized Foundation, it is cumulative and often difficult to pin down for particular small actions, and those who promote/implement it are usually both acting with good intentions and quite unaware of the insidious agenda they are furthering.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, at least one bold removed. I will repeat myself: I suggested that it is not good to use bold in conversations by any means, only in some exceptions. This was not such exception, italics or underline would be more appropirate.
 * Could you explain or give proofs how "in the event, centralization of control was prioritized above quality improvement and in opposition to empowerment"? If we take Wikimedia Commons as example, I don't see anything bad about having centralized repository of images that are free (with some CC license) nor how this could counteract on quality improvement or in opposition to empowerment (what do you mean by empowerment, btw)?
 * What are real-life examples for "damaging centralization of control" in Wikimedia? I don't see any examples and it seems we you are talking about some conspiracy theories not known to Wikimedians, Wikipedians etc. --Obsuser (talk) 14:17, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

grid background near the middle hoop intersections has rgb(226,237,255) in current logo and rgb(225,236,255) in the official icon used in proposed logo; grid background near the center has rgb(233,242,255) in current logo and rgb(232,242,255) in the official icon used in proposed logo. We can see that someone tried to make exactly same gradient and has done it successfully, because 1 or 2 RGB value color difference is not noticable. So this also is not any difference that someone could use as an argument to oppose update, it is not noticable by human eye and even if it was it is not any major variation (it is very minor variation). – no change here bottom point [**vertically bottom in logo icon map, probably not in reality**] of the Africa mainland continent is rgb(38,129,218) in current logo and rgb(36,130,218) in the official icon used in proposed logo; leftmost point [**horizontally leftmost**] of the South America mainland continent is same as in previous example: rgb(38,129,218) in current logo and rgb(38,129,218) in the official icon used in proposed logo as well; uppermost pont of Madagascar is rgb(38,129,218) in current logo and rgb(34,132,217) in the official icon used in proposed logo. – no change here Smallest, outermost ones, have rgb(175,221,255) on top, and rgb(202,232,255) in middle – for both current and proposed logo; middle ones have rgb(124,192,242) and rgb(127,194,243) on top, and rgb(170,219,255) and rgb(169,219,255) in middle – for current and proposed logo respectively; biggest, innermost ones, have rgb(74,158,218) on top and rgb(126,201,253) in middle – for both current and proposed logo. – no change here Again, no. It would not be like you insist from someone to provide justification why this language of the Wikinews project should change logo. I didn't come to your talk page or here on Water cooler/technical and insisted for explanation why Wikinews logo should be changed; I came here on Water cooled/technical with explanation why Wikinews logo should be changed. Again, no. Yes, I have provided many reasons so far. Again, no. I have to [provide reasons] if I want the logo changed. I will repeat main reasons again for convenience: (1) after Pi zero's and your suggestion that logos should not use drop shadows, I removed drop shadows; (2) we agreed that it is useful to have SVG from which PNG used as static image is generated, I created SVG; (3) I gave reason that other Wikinews projects might want to update their logos with globe in exactly same position as here (such as I want to do for sr.wikinews, so that when switching tabs logo does not pop-up left-right and/or up-down) – and this is not possible without or is hardly possible with SVG used for generating the image really used for logo (static image). Note: Pi zero said "nothing wrong with File:WikiNews-Logo-fr.svg (except for the use of camel case)" and after that opposed logo update with no reason. Very wierd, no logic. Why? Note: On your images for comparison, logos are not aligned vertically, because if they were globes would have been exatly aligned vertically and horizontally not (because in proposed version globe with surrounding parts is exactly centered – as well as text, which is improvement (4) after (1), (2) and (3) shortly described in this comment). Would you support proposal if gradient is corrected to be same as in current logo?
 * I will not make an exhaustive list of the design elements of the .svg which differ, but these are the items which strike me immediately, and negatively:
 * Font change
 * Font weight change
 * Base color change
 * lat/long grid color change (this one I may be neutral on)
 * Waves color gradient change (and does not use the base color which is frankly offensive - tone is clearly off.)
 * Waves size ratio/weight to globe size changed, but this may be an optical illusion due to the color/gradient change.
 * You may consider these to be minor variations from the original - I do not. Again my memory hazy, but I believe Otourly manually built the letters for the fr logo because we could not find a free version of the original font (and is why that 'K' can be easily repaired.) The changes I list have already been implemented in the WMF version of the logo without any input from Wikinews project members. Why would we expect future logo iterations to respect our project? Much as I personally like Killiondude and Isara, and I know they had no intention of doing harm, they have in fact done harm. -  Amgine | t 18:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have to retract the font changes - in a very close comparison the fonts may be the same, although the color has been changed. (The gradient drop shadow probably helped my delusion; but I should not have fallen for that.) Likewise, the lat-lon grid color appears to be the same. The gradients are not - the current svg gradient may be a linear rather than log. Also, the globe base gradient is weirdly different - on the original the map is not affected by it, while on the svg it is. Not sure why. -  Amgine | t 19:16, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You should not be looking for design differences but on current logo eventual flaws because it is not forbidden to propose changes (while it is forbidden to oppose changes which are improvements without adequate explanation). Regarding WMF, if WMF decides that logo must be red it will be red; if WMF decides that Wikinews should be shut down, it will be shut down independently of the local community. But isn't it good that WMF does not currently force its wikis to do anything but respects local community and will update logo or make any improvement if community wants that?
 * Regarding your comments:
 * You may consider these to be minor variations from the original - I do not. – I will explain those "not minor variations" below.*
 * I believe Otourly manually built the letters for the fr logo because we could not find a free version of the original font (and is why that 'K' can be easily repaired.) – How is this related to the current logo proposal? Letters are same as typed and expanded to path, and 'K' is repaired easily because SVG logos must have text expanded to path (here anchor was aligned with one below it)...
 * The changes I list have already been implemented in the WMF version of the logo without any input from Wikinews project members. Why would we expect future logo iterations to respect our project? – If they have been implemented in the WMF version of the logo, then it means that WMF has full rights to decide what logo/icon it wants to use for its projects (what completely makes sense; e.g. Facebook does not talk with its users about design but chooses it itself, this is analog). English Wikinews (or any WMF wiki) is not indepentent from other Wikinews language editions nor from other sister projects, not at all, even if it has different URL subdomain (domain is same).
 * Much as I personally like Killiondude and Isara, and I know they had no intention of doing harm, they have in fact done harm. – They should be asked about that, now it is unrelevant. Btw, what harm (I guess you mean on File:Wikinews-logo.svg updates by English admin)?
 * * Regarding "not minor variations":
 * There is no font change nor font weight change [nor width nor color change; in both version "WIKI" is rgb(89,89,89) and "NEWS" rgb(140,140,140); they are aligned in same position too] (and even if there were changes, here or elsewhere in the logo, you would have to explain why it is bad and I would have to explain why it is an improvement). – no change here
 * * Regarding globe and six "parentheses" icon: As I've already said, I used official Wikinews icon File:Wikinews-logo.svg (that contains template "Wikimedia trademark" and is very widely used on all projects because file name is unmodified and suggests this is official primary version). Your objection "base color change" / "color has been changed" is thus invalid but I will say something about it too.
 * Grid has exactly same colors as current en.wikinews logo (if you use Adobe Illustrator eyedropper on the very top of the grid you will get rgb(182,205,226), on the middle hoop intersections rgb(190,212,231) and in the center rgb(208,226,242) – on both current whole en.wikinews logo and proposed logo version for update it). – no change here
 * Grid background in the very top – below the biggest, outermost hoop – has rgb(215,226,255) in current logo and rgb(216,228,255) in the official icon used in proposed logo;
 * Map colors are same as well. Examples:
 * "Parentheses" colors are same well, even if you wrongly saw they are different.
 * And at the end, to comment your last objection:
 * The gradients are not [same] - the current svg gradient may be a linear rather than log. Also, the globe base gradient is weirdly different - on the original the map is not affected by it, while on the svg it is. – Gradients are same, and log SVG gradient does not exist (there is only linear [axial] and radial, see w:color gradient; in our Wikinews logos there are both linear and radial gradients used for specific parts).
 * To repeat myself before conclusion: Even if there were changes, you or anyone else cannot oppose them without explanation and I or anyone else cannot introduce them without explanation.
 * Conclusion: Only changes English Wikinews will have with their logo relative to the current one are: (1) drop shadows will be removed from the text because of the valid suggestion to do this, (2) Wikinews logo (globe and "parentheses") and text will be aligned horizontally to the center because they are misaligned in the current logo (they are 5px and 7px left from the center in File:Wikinews-logo-en.png, respectively). If I'm making mistake somewhere or not telling truth, please correct me. And I repeat, I would like more people in this discussion except me who propose and Amgine and Pi Zero who both were opposing this update which will be useful for English and for other Wikinews as well because they will have SVG so that icon is centered and text changed only. --Obsuser (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Two small points:
 * we certainly can oppose without explaining. That would be like me insisting you provide a justification why this language of the Wikinews project should change its logo. You have not provided a reason so far. You do not have to.
 * The gradients are not the same. If they were there would be exactly the same number of pixels of exactly the same colors vertically, and there are not, as can be seen in File:SVG_logo_on_top,_shifted_right.png and File:Svg_on_bottom,_shifted_right.png (images created and uploaded before your essay above.)
 * I generally oppose voting, but you have convinced me that I should make an exception in this case. I am now officially opposed to this logo change. I will not comment further. -  Amgine | t 03:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Your first point is not true, second one is (but is not any reason to oppose change, as I will explain).
 * No, wiki editors cannot oppose any change – even so minor that it changes one pixel or one dot – if some volunteer wants to make it and has explained why that change is any improvement, for any local wiki (at first place), sister wiki (on second place) or/and Wikimedia project (on third place; from the lowest to the highest level).
 * OK, that's correct: gradients are not the same. But do you take into account that all uppermost colors, downmost colors and middle colors are same (as explained in detail in point four above)? And do you take into account that this probably unnoticeable difference cannot be reason for votting oppose by any means because change is negligible AND the proposed globe is the one used in official all Wikinews logo from Wikimedia (File:Wikinews-logo.svg) used widely on all wiki projects – Wikipedias, Wikinews' etc.?
 * Do you even know what is voting on Wikimedia (at least Wikipedia)? After one user reasons with himself/herself that he is for or against something (he needs to proccess some arguments in his/her brain to do that – otherwise it would be random put of vote, let's say against, for no reason), he/she should write short or long explanation of the reasoning and only formally put vote agree or oppose as conclusion of the reasoning and in order to have counting of how many users' reasonings were in favor or against some proposal. However, this should not be how democratic voting functions; instead of counting votes, valid arguments should be counted – by strenght (that's why I would agree with you, I also do not like voting) but in some cases where question is really yes/no voting system can be used. I made mistake for doing that here; listing arguments would have been better. I listed many valid arguments (you can try to explain why they are invalid, of course, if you think they are invalid), and you did not give any argument and are still opposing this proposal – "official[ly]" as you say and "will not comment further". Why? Why not to continue discussion? It is really up to you to explain opposing any change if one who proposes it proved it is good; otherwise, if you refuse to give valid explanation and insist on strongly opposing changes with no clear reason (maybe secretly thinking that someone wants to conduct some "insidious agenda", as Pi Zero said above, what is nonsense), that would be abuse of user rights and contrary to Wikimedia policy.
 * By the way, I would like I've seen "Welcome to Wikinews, [nl] the free news source wiki that anyone can edit!" rather than current text "Welcome to Wikinews [nl] The free news source you can write!". If it was written first way, I could add it as an argument (if anyone [by some rules, of course] can edit whis wiki, what is actually true, than this also includes logo; not of course proposing every week some radical changes, but useful changes once in a while). But is other story and can be other proposal.
 * And one more thing, as I said two or more times to this point: it is necessary, especially now when there is at-any-price opposing with no reason, that other users get involved in this discussion. Wikinews in English currently has 142 active users and 20 admins. Before giving up, I would like to hear thoughts of at least one or two or three other users. It is not possible that all users think same way. I doubt other users/admins would be opposing this, maybe I'm wrong – that's why other users' thoughts are needed, one admin and one regular user who are against should not be only ones who will decide this important topic with its proposer who is of course for. --Obsuser (talk) 14:17, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


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text: Comments:Football: Crystal Palace sacks de Boer after 77 days as manager


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text:
Device explodes on London Tube train at Parsons Green

September 15, 2017

This morning local time an explosion, now officially considered a terrorist incident, was reported on a  train which was stopped at Parsons Green in south-west London. The explosion has been officially confirmed caused by an placed in a white bucket inside a  shopping bag. Reports also indicate a timer attached to the explosive. At least 29 people were injured, said this afternoon.

Officers and ambulance staff were on the scene this morning, with reports of burn and crush injuries. Detectives and MI5 were investigating.

BBC News presenter described seeing a woman on a stretcher with face and leg burns.

In a statement after the incident, British Prime Minister said, "My thoughts are with those injured at Parsons Green and emergency services who are responding bravely to this terrorist incident."


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Football: Roy Hodgson pens two-year contract with Crystal Palace; becomes seventh permanent manager of Palace in six years

September 15, 2017 On Tuesday, former manager of England's football team signed a two-year contract with London-based football club Crystal Palace, the club announced via their official website.

70-year-old Hodgson has about forty years as a football manager, and has managed fifteen clubs, and four countries' national teams. He has managed four clubs —, , Liverpool and , having 34.72 % win rate in Premier League. In 2011, he helped West Bromwich avoid relegation, and a year earlier, he helped Fulham to reach the final of the. Hodgson went on to manage. Under his management, The Three Lions reached the quarter-finals of the UEFA Euro 2012. In 2014's FIFA World Cup, England were eliminated in the group stage, and last year, following 2–1 defeat against Iceland in Euro 2016, Roy Hodgson announced resignation from the post. Hodgson has won seven Swedish league titles, two Swedish cups, and one league title each in Switzerland and Denmark.

After penning the deal, Hodgson said, "This is very much the club of my boyhood and I remember in my youth watching the club from the terraces at the Holmesdale Road end which gave me such fond memories. In those days I had dreams of playing for the team, then as a coach you think about coaching the team and a lot has happened in between times." Regarding the poor start of the season, Hodgson said, "I don't honestly believe that there is necessarily a lot that needs to be done. You can always get off to a bad start, what we've got to remember is our fate will be decided after 38 games, not four."

Hodgson's predecessor 's three-year contract was terminated the day before Hodgson's hiring, after his fourth consecutive defeat in the English Premier League. Crystal Palace was yet to score a goal, and they were nineteenth in the league table. Hodgson is now the oldest permanent manager in the Premier League. He is also the seventh manager of Crystal Palace in the past six years.

Hodgson's first match as Crystal Palace's manager is to be an away match against, scheduled for tomorrow.


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Talk:Football: Roy Hodgson pens two-year contract with Crystal Palace; becomes seventh permanent manager of Palace in six years

any chance you could review it tonight? If no, then there is no point writing it. (Also, it could help few cats to come to life and an updated story) acagastya PING ME! 09:58, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. --Pi zero (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * by the time this article was published, Palace slipped to the 20th place. acagastya PING ME! 02:00, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


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Thread:Comments:Fifteen states sue United States President Donald Trump for cancelling program for undocumented immigrant minors/Suing the US president...

is an obviously bad idea. (I'm Canadian, and I know it's a really bad idea to sue ANY head of state.)


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Template:Mainspace disambig/Crystal Palace

Wikilinks to Crystal Palace should be retargeted for clarity; the term likely refers to:
 * Crystal Palace F.C., a London-based football club
 * , a residential area in London
 * , a structure built in London in 1851, destroyed by fire in 1936


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Football: Isco signs contract extension with Real Madrid

September 17, 2017 On Friday, Spanish midfielder signed a contract extension with Spanish capital club Real Madrid, the club announced via their official website. The new contract runs until June 2022.

Now-25-year-old Isco joined Los Blancos from in summer 2013. Since then the Spanish international has won eleven trophies including three UEFA Champions League titles and a LaLiga trophy. This August, Isco scored a goal against Manchester United in the, which Madrid won.

Since joining the club at age 21, Isco has featured in 192 matches for the club, scoring 33 goals and providing 29 assists. Isco won the in 2013 with Spain, scoring a goal in the final against Italy. Isco has 22 international, netting six goals. Earlier this month, Isco scored two goals en route to defeating Italy 3–0 in the FIFA World Cup qualifier.

Per the previous contract, Isco was tied to Real Madrid until June 2018. On Thursday, Real Madrid announced Brazilian full back Marcelo signed a contract extension until June 2022. They join other Real Madrid players including German midfielder Toni Kroos and Welsh midfielder Gareth Bale whose contracts run until June 2022. Kroos and Bale signed contract extensions last year. Madrid announced about agreeing for contract extension with Isco on Thursday.


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Talk:Device explodes on London Tube train at Parsons Green

Category
editprotected

Please add Category:United Kingdom onto here. Heavy Water (talk) 23:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. [24Cr][talk] 16:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)


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User:Ottawahitech

English Wikinews pageviews topviews analysis

 * https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/topviews/?project=en.wikinews.org&platform=all-access&date=2015-07&excludes=

Link to Abandoned stories
Proposed_deletion

About my interests

 * My edits on wikinews (Statistics provided by xtools.wmflabs)
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About wikinews
English wikinews as of

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COVID-19: data tracking no more
Did you know that John Hopkins University (JHU) stop tracking COVID-19 pandemic data? Apparently this happened very quietely on March 10, 2023 according to a posting on their website dated February 10.

The is all I found on enwp in regards to COVID tracking at JHU: "In late 2019, the university's Coronavirus Research Center began tracking worldwide cases of the COVID-19 pandemic by compiling data from hundreds of sources around the world.[59] This led to the university becoming one of the most cited sources for data about the pandemic.[59]"

The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) stopped tracking worldwide data tracking sometime around June 2022. This followed reduced world-wide rteporting reporting from daily to weekly on ?.

As of 20 June 2022, ECDC is discontinuing the data collection and publication of the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths worldwide. Please refer to the World Health Organization (WHO) data on COVID-19 and the WHO Weekly Epidemiological and Weekly Operational Updates page for the non-EU/EEA countries.

ECDC will continue providing weekly updates for EU/EEA Member States and report on an ad-hoc basis about significant events related to COVID-19 globally.

ECDC has been collecting data on the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths for all countries in the EU/EEA and globally for more than two years. The data collected by ECDC will continue to be available in an archived format.

So who maintains public COVID-19 worldwide data tracking now: WHO? CDC? X? Are their methods similar to the previous tracking services so that apples can be compared to apples and not to oranges?

US Supreme Court weighs in on property rights case in Minnesota
For updates check

talk page copy&paste
Review of revision 4723568 [Not ready] Revision 4723568 of this article has been reviewed by SVTCobra (talk · contribs) and found not ready at 22:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Copyright: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Newsworthiness: Not ready: See below Verifiability: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. NPOV: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Style: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Comments by reviewer: Unfortunately, this did not get published before the Supreme Court already heard the arguments. Fret not, however, as it should be fairly simple to update the focal point.

Questions about the above? Ask.

If possible, please address the above issues then resubmit the article for another review (by replacing tasks in the article with review). This talk page will be updated with subsequent reviews.

Review of revision 4724176 [Not ready] Revision 4724176 of this article has been reviewed by JJLiu112 (talk · contribs) and found not ready at 18:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Copyright: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Newsworthiness: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Verifiability: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. NPOV: Not reviewed. Please address other issues. Style: Not ready: For a title that talks about the Court 'weighing in', literally nothing apropos to the arguments themselves was mentioned. This is literally just a retelling of what happened and why in relation to the trial, not what happened DURING THE HEARINGS. Which, you know, both NPR and Reuters have addressed, and which would be obligatory for any synthesis. Comments by reviewer: None added.

Questions about the above? Ask.

If possible, please address the above issues then resubmit the article for another review (by replacing tasks in the article with review). This talk page will be updated with subsequent reviews.

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Thread:Comments:U.S. President Obama's farewell address focuses on accomplishment/Obama/reply

<--Obama became the 44th but the only president to remind the Americans that America does not have to hail presidency if ain't ready to compete/run for presidency just US -->{41.77.91.204 (talk) 03:57, 17 September 2017 (UTC)}


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Talk:Football: Isco signs contract extension with Real Madrid

Review of revision 4347439 [Passed]

 * Regarding diff=4348059, I use related news just like the see also section of Wikipedia articles. Since linking articles within the story is not permitted. acagastya PING ME! 18:56, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * A plausible position. --Pi zero (talk) 19:20, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


text: Comments:Football: Isco signs contract extension with Real Madrid


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Advertisement
We do not allow adevertisement on Wikinews. It looks as if the purpose of this account is promotion of a particular individual; I'm considering blocking the account as advert-only. --Pi zero (talk) 16:37, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

--Pi zero (talk) 14:21, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

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Category talk:Marcelo Vieira

We have been adding club category for footballers. So why revert it? (Shouldn't it be same for all?) acagastya PING ME! 15:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Have we been? That... doesn't seem very stable.  --Pi zero (talk) 15:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * have a look at Leo Messi, Gareth Bale, Paul Pogba or even Pep Guardiola. acagastya PING ME! 16:09, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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User talk:إنشاء

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User talk:Adriano Sh. Isaac

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User talk:Le roi maurice

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Football: Carvajal signs contract extension with Real Madrid

September 18, 2017 Today, Spanish defender Dani Carvajal signed a contract extension with Spanish capital club Real Madrid, the club announced via their official website. The new contract runs until June 2022.

Now-25-year-old Carvajal joined Los Blancos from German club in summer 2013. Since then the Spanish international has won eleven titles, including three UEFA Champions League titles, three, two s and one each of LaLiga trophy, , and. Carvajal graduated from Real Madrid's academy, and since joining Real Madrid's first team, the Spanish right-back has played more than 160 official games for Madrid, scoring four, and assisting 24, goals in total.

After signing the contract, the Spaniard said,.

Per the previous contract, Carvajal was tied to Real Madrid until June 2020. Last week, Real Madrid announced Brazilian full back and Spanish midfielder  signed contract extensions until June 2022. They join other Real Madrid players including German midfielder and  midfielder Gareth Bale whose contracts run until June 2022. Kroos and Bale signed contract extensions last year. Madrid announced agreement to contract extension with Carvajal yesterday.


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User talk:AnolaFilms

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title: User talk:AnolaFilms


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Talk:Football: Carvajal signs contract extension with Real Madrid

The issue with when. They agreed for extension yesterday (link, cited) and the signing took place today (link). acagastya PING ME! 14:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)


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User talk:José Luis Olaizola

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User talk:Rahulyadav121

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User talk:Abubakar Aliyu kambaza

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User talk:Kaera McKane

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text: User:Axagastya

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User talk:AmigodosNovatos

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User talk:Anseer Asharaf

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User talk:Samara Trejan

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title: User talk:Samara Trejan


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title: User talk:Rakesh Satyashree


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title: User talk:Deejaysammy kimonda


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title: User talk:Alexmarzea1


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title: User talk:DemetraWeiss


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text: Category:Dani Carvajal

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User talk:Hanenica1

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title: User talk:Hanenica1


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title: User talk:Neide Mariza


text: Comments:Football: Carvajal signs contract extension with Real Madrid


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User talk:Hokkaido Bear

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User talk:Spiritualbanda

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User:Moredhvaj

Moredhvaj Giri''' Moredhvaj Giri was born in an upper class landlord family in Tarkuwa, Maharajganj District, Uttar Pradesh on 22 March 1993.

title: User:Moredhvaj


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User talk:Chen65346923

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User talk:Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly

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Al Jazeera says Snapchat's act a 'clear attack on the rights of journalists' as Snapchat blocks Qatar-based news network's channel in Saudi Arabia

September 21, 2017 On Monday, Qatar-based news network Al Jazeera's Acting Director General Mostefa Souag said 's actions were "alarming and worrying" after the US-based messaging and media sharing platform blocked their channel from the discover publisher section in Saudi Arabia, following a request from the Saudi government. The block was introduced on Sunday, and the Saudi government accused Al Jazeera of content violating cyber crime laws of the kingdom.

Mostefa Souag said Snapchat's action "sends a message that regimes and countries can silence any voice or platform they don't agree with by exerting pressure on the owners of social media platforms and content distribution companies. This step is a clear attack on the rights of journalists and media professionals to report and cover stories freely from around the world".

A spokesperson of Snapchat's parent company, Snap, Inc., on Sunday, said, "We make an effort to comply with local laws in the countries where we operate". Al Jazeera's Snapchat content outside the discover channel can be accessed by Saudis. Snap, Inc. said the channel's content is available in fourteen Middle Eastern countries.

Al Jazeera's website was blocked in Saudi Arabia and the UAE in late May, amid controversy over remarks allegedly made by Qatar. Four countries, Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE broke their diplomatic ties with Qatar for allegedly supporting "extremists". Accused by those four nations of funding militant groups, Qatar was issued with a list of thirteen demands, including shutting down Al Jazeera, to lift the sanctions. In July, Egypt foreign ministry announced citizens of Qatar could no longer travel to Egypt without a visa, ending the visa-free travels to the country for Qataris. However, a spokesperson of the foreign ministry said those measures would not apply to Qatari students studying in Egyptian public universities, nor to partners or children of Egyptians.

Al Jazeera's head of Incubation and Innovation Research, Morad Rayyan, said, "We are urging them [Snapchat] to review the decision that was made. They were the ones who invited us to be one of their news partners for the region."


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Talk:Al Jazeera says Snapchat's act a 'clear attack on the rights of journalists' as Snapchat blocks Qatar-based news network's channel in Saudi Arabia

Renaming the article
While discussing with a newcomer about this article, they said, they didn't know "what Al Jazeera was". There might be many people who have not heard about Al Jazeera. For those who have, they might not be knowing it is Doha-based. So, how about renaming it to "Qatari news company Al Jazeera's Snapchat channel blocked in Saudi Arabia"? (note: it also reminds readers of ongoing Gulf crises) acagastya PING ME! 16:32, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Renamed; I went with "news network" rather than "news company". --Pi zero (talk) 18:49, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No issues. Wanted one without redirect. but it is okay. Primary focus is having a good headline. acagastya PING ME! 18:54, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It occurred to me just after, it would have been well to omit the redirect. But, as you say, not a tragedy.  There are lots of redirects from pre-publish renames, one more is a small thing.  --Pi zero (talk) 19:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I am writing another article. Can you manage two reviews in (less than) six hours? acagastya PING ME! 18:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Confusing statement in fourth paragraph
At the start, it says "The block was introduced on Sunday", but at the start of the fourth paragraph it says "Al Jazeera was blocked in Saudi Arabia and the UAE in late May" - are we talking about the TV station's broadcast being blocked in those countries? If so, I think a little bit of clarification might be helpful. -- numbermaniac  01:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


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User talk:Lorevilca

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User talk:Mats mats

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User talk:Wenixed

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User talk:Grantfordlee

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title: User talk:BurtonI63085154


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User talk:Chammakchallo44

-- Wikinews Welcome (talk) 18:31, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

--Pi zero (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chammakchallo44


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Football: German goalkeeper Manuel Neuer sidelined until 2018 after leg injury

September 21, 2017 On Tuesday, German football club Bayern Munich announced Manuel Neuer, their goalkeeper and captain, had surgery on his left foot and is expected to miss footballing action for the rest of the year. The club announced it via their website.

31-year-old Neuer suffered injury from Monday's training for their match against. His of the  of his left foot was treated on Tuesday by Doctor Ulrich Stöckle in.

Bayern Munich AG's CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge said,

Former goalie, who played only twelve games since joining Bayern in 2015 until Monday,  is likely to fill Neuer's place until Neuer returns. Baryern faces Celtic as well as Paris-Saint Germain in the group stage of UEFA Champions League. FC Barcelona's shotstopper Marc-André ter Stegen is expected to guard the German nets for the upcoming FIFA qualifiers for next year's tournament in Russia.

Neuer suffered a toe injury in March, and a fracture after the second leg of UEFA Champions League quarter-final against Real Madrid in April. Neuer recovered from the original fracture from April, and joined the team late last month. His club and national teammates including Robert Lewandowski, Thomas Müller,, , , and Toni Kroos wished him a speedy recovery via Twitter.


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User talk:Azael C7PA

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User talk:Tobex9434

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title: User talk:Tobex9434


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As shipping exemption expires, hurricane-torn Puerto Rico may face changes in relief from mainland United States

October 12, 2017

According to the United States on Monday, Puerto Rico's exemption from the, which temporarily lifted the rule requiring that only U.S.-owned ships might carry goods between U.S. ports, was allowed to expire on Sunday rather than being renewed. The island commonwealth had been given a temporary exemption from this law to allow foreign ships to aid the delivery of relief supplies after, which struck Puerto Rico last month. Puerto Ricans and lawmakers had asked for an extension of the waiver in light of the island's current difficulties.

"We believe that extending the waiver is unnecessary to support the humanitarian relief efforts on the island[...] There is an ample supply of Jones Act-qualified vessels to ensure that cargo is able to reach Puerto Rico," reads a statement from Homeland Security Press Secretary David Lapan.

The Jones Act of 1920 requires that all ships carrying cargo directly from one U.S. port to another must be built, operated and owned by U.S. personnel. Puerto Rico, a U.S. commonwealth, falls under its jurisdiction. President Donald Trump issued a temporary waiver of this requirement for Puerto Rico on September 28 to help the relief effort. However, there were also concerns about supplies sitting idle in ports for lack of organized distribution and truck drivers to take them where they were needed. Some foreign ships may take until October 18 to complete deliveries.

Republicans Marco Rubio and John McCain were among those in the U.S. Congress who had urged President Trump to issue the waiver, though McCain supported making the exemption permanent: "Now that the temporary Jones Act waiver for Puerto Rico has expired, it is more important than ever for Congress to pass my bill to permanently exempt Puerto Rico from this archaic and burdensome law," he told the Huffington Post. "Until we provide Puerto Rico with long-term relief, the Jones Act will continue to hinder much-needed efforts to help the people of Puerto Rico recover and rebuild from Hurricane Maria."

In September, Puerto Rico was nicked by the same that left Florida in disarray but then pummeled head-on by Hurricane Maria. The crisis displaced thousands of people and led to extraordinary rainfall and flash flood scares after a large crack appeared in the Guajataca Dam. According to Governor Ricardo Rosselló, 85% of residents remain without electricity, and many also still lack access to running water.

Puerto Rico was colonized by Spain and came under U.S. control in the in 1898, along with Guam and the Philippines. Every person born in Puerto Rico is a United States citizen by birth. Puerto Rican residents do not participate in national elections, hold no seats in the, and have a non-voting representative in the U.S. congress. Mostly, they are exempt from but not other federal taxes.

Every few years, the Puerto Ricans hold a referendum to determine whether they wish to remain a commonwealth, seek U.S. statehood, or seek independence in some form. In June, 97% of voters selected the second option, though turnout was low, and Congress is not legally required to obey their wishes.


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Talk:As shipping exemption expires, hurricane-torn Puerto Rico may face changes in relief from mainland United States

This feels a bit rushed to me too. Of the two, I think this article should be reviewed before the earthquake article.

Yesterday was a slow news day, now this. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

It's alive ...ALIIIIIVE!
It's October, so I called my assistant Igor and raised this article toward the lightning. The ozone's still making my hair stand up, so I welcome fresh eyes, but I think she's presentable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * from this point “talks FEMA, Trump Tweets as relief effort continues” headline makes no sense to an “average reader”. 223.186.116.8 (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The lede is nastily long and confusing. acagastya PING ME! 08:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Review of revision 4351645 [Not ready]

 * Took a stab at what you meant. Take a gander. . (There are highly aggressive geese in my area that often leave me wanting to stab ganders.) Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * On quick first impression, those two specific immediate problems are resolved. I see the focal event took place on Saturday, so it's not entirely impossible it might still be publishable on Tuesday (which, UTC, starts in about 50 minutes).  So we'll see what happens.  --Pi zero (talk) 23:10, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Cool. If no one gets to it by tomorrow afternoon, I'll just check the mediasphere for any updates. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Collaboration and timeline source
As usual, I'm not married to this title or any specific part of the text, and I welcome anyone who wants to improve it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Just going to stash this link to an Atlantic article about the timeline of Hurricane Maria here. Could be a good resource in any future articles.  I just used a similar source in the spotted owl Wikinews article. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Review of revision 4354530 [Not ready]

 * Done. I must say, though, a law may not be a person but it is certainly an agent. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the headline is confusing. I don't understand how the expiration of the Jones Act (shouldn't its formal title appear somewhere?) may limit shipping from the mainland US. The Jones Act restricts shipping to Puerto Rico to ships from the mainland. Now that it's expiring, only ships from the mainland can dock there... But that doesn't limit shipping *from* the mainland? Or I'm missing something? Ca2james (talk) 17:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Take a look now, . Weirdly enough, none of the sources I used included the Act's real name.  Everyone's just calling it "Jones Act" or "Jones Act of 1920." Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Side note: the Jones Act is intended to make US-flagged ships more profitable for trade between US ports. Foreign-flagged ships are required to clear into and out of a non-US port between US ports. The expiration will not limit shipping relief resources, but it could delay it OR make it more expensive. -  Amgine | t 17:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Swapped it out for "changes." It should do. If anyone wants to change it to a better title, I don't mind. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! That makes much more sense. Ca2james (talk) 02:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Review of revision 4355220 [Passed]

 * Anything specific jump to mind? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I hope you're regularly tracking the on all these; I cultivate a review style in which the edits are broken into small increments so that each individual edit will have a readable diff and afford a clear edit summary.  --Pi zero (talk) 03:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Ordinarily my take is "don't be defensive; just move on," but you've told me that your perception of matters like this has affected your decision-making in at least one case, so...
 * PRE-POST CAVEAT: I am not offering this to argue with you about any of the changes you made to the article. You used your reviewer judgment. The way I see it, the article is fine the way it is.  Nothing needs to go back in or come back out.  Anything posted on any part of project Wiki is going to be changed by other people, period.  I am posting this so we can determine whether I'm interpreting your edit summaries correctly, which I must do if they are to be useful.  Hopefully it will also satisfy you that I wasn't careless.
 * "didn't find" Looks like you mean "didn't find source material stating that the exemption allowed foreign ships to join U.S. ships in the relief effort." It was right here: "A waiver enabling foreign ships to deliver supplies to storm-ravaged Puerto Rico has expired and will not be renewed" and "eased the way for foreign ships to deliver crucial supplies, such as food and gasoline, more expeditiously and at a lower cost." "Didn't find" is actually a good summary here because it acknowledges the possibility that the content may indeed have been there. That was the case here.
 * The other two edits marked "didn't find" look like revert and reverted, so I'm guessing they were a false alarm.
 * "Rm bias" Calling people "Americans" is not bias. It's the only option provided by the English language where a demonym is required.  Spanish has both "americano," which can also mean anything pertaining to the Americas, and "estadounidense," but English has just the one. "Citizen" is not exactly the same thing; it refers to legal status (and "American" to culture/identity).  Nothing in the source material suggested that the researchers checked citizenship status before administering their poll; the respondents are called "Americans." The distinction between "American citizen" and "American" is more relevant than usual here because that's what the paragraph is actually discussing.  I know that some Latin Americans take offense at "American," so I've used "United States" whenever it was six-to-one-half-a-dozen-to-the-other, and I chose "American" here because this isn't one of those times.  The fact that Puerto Rico is not literally a state but its people are Americans is another reason to prefer "American" to anything with "States" in it in this article.  It could get confusing.
 * "Rm analysis" The "Complicating the relief effort" matter is from this in USA Today: "fewer than half of Americans (47%) believe that Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens by birth. ... That may help explain why the nation rallied behind the victims of Hurricane Harvey in Texas and Hurricane Irma in Florida, but have not responded in the same way to the victims of Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico" and surrounding.
 * So, did I get it right? Is that what your edit summaries meant or were any of them pointing at something else? Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I try to avoid ever asserting that something wasn't in the sources, always noting "didn't find" (or some similar words, but "didn't find" is my usual phrase).
 * That particular "" was, iirc, not about the allowing foreign ships (which repeats the earlier explanation of the Jones Act) but about the claim that most of the ships were already allowed. I spent a great deal of time and effort trying to find that in the sources (which is usually true of those innocent-seeming "didn't find" edit summaries; hence my characterization of them as expensive).  There's also a subtle difference in what is implied by "will be allowed to continue making deliveries until October 18" versus "may take until October 18 to complete deliveries", and the difference is another thing I didn't find.
 * Another "didn't find" was because I didn't find that the rainfall was record rainfall, but it was clearly extraordinary so I went with that. I'm appalled to discover I somehow accidentally undid my own change there, when I was making a much larger didn't find edit in which I cut an entire paragraph.
 * The analysis removed is analysis. I knew where you got it from.  Just because that opinion was expressed by a source doesn't make it okay to report it as fact.  Don't report analysis in your own voice.  Objective facts likely to lead to that analysis are typically okay to report (with a caveat about misleading selection of facts).  If the analysis can be attributed to someone in the story, doing that is okay; but usually the journalists who write the source articles are not themselves part of the news story, so usually it's not appropriate to report the journalists' opinions (even with attribution).
 * Using the term "Americans", in Wikinew's own voice, introduces bias. It can't help doing so; the biasing effect is inherent.  It's not difficult to quietly avoid the usage in our own voice, and quietly avoiding it creates a largely unnoticed push toward neutral perspective.  The fact that it is largely unnoticed is the flip side of the fact that most people in the US don't notice the biasing push created by using the term.  Note it's not just a biasing influence on the reader/listener; it's a biasing influence on the writer/speaker, too.
 * Interesting, to observe in which cases the edit summaries were and weren't lucid. (Some rationales are just really hard to get across, so that an edit summary never really had a chance of doing so anyway.)  --Pi zero (talk) 04:57, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Then we've established what we needed to establish here: Edit summaries alone don't do the whole job.
 * As for "Americans," the situation seems to be that you think it's bias and I don't. It's not that I don't notice the situation or have overlooked something.  I have examined it closely and find the word appropriate. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:41, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've had some bad experiences with exchanges that become lists of points of disagreement, but it's possible this could be one of the times such a thing accomplishes a useful purpose. (Hope springs eternal.)
 * Was it not understood beforehand that edit summaries don't always suffice in themselves? I've spent years attempting over and over, with many different people, to explain Wikinews writing, in general and as specifically relates to particular articles; however much I try to apply what I've learnt from past failures, people keep finding new ways to not get it.  So it's certainly nothing new to me that edit summaries don't always suffice.  Nothing always suffices; often I'll put much time and effort into writing lengthy discussions in review comments only to find that somehow the contributor entirely misses the point I was trying to make.  But, clear diffs and specific, if necessarily brief, edit summaries are an immensely valuable place to start, and have greatly improved my success rate at communicating at-least-some-information to contributors.  (Also, btw, I find it can be very difficult to remember, through a lengthy review, all the potential review comments one thought of during the review — one of the things I hope an eventual review assistant can help with — and the edit history is also my most detailed record of what went on during the review.  Naturally, I can make more of it, by examining it in detail later, than someone else can, somewhat as an original reporter's notes-at-the-time may mean more to the reporter than they do to someone else (but we still want those notes, and a reviewer routinely reconstructs how the reporter derived their reportage from the notes).)
 * There are at least a couple of difficulties with your statement "As for 'American,' the situation seems to be that you think it's bias and I don't." It's a fairly nicely crafted remark on your part —cautious wording should be instinctive for journalists— in that it's somewhat buffered by the word "seems" (though you might further qualify it as "seems to me").  Given this buffer, the difficulties are in apparent implications rather than direct assertions.
 * The statement presents this as a personal disagreement just between the two of us. If it were some petty preference of mine, I wouldn't pursue it aggressively and would clearly identify it as a personal preference.  Part of the responsibility of review is not treating it as free license to indulge one's personal idiosyncrasies.
 * The statement suggests that I think the usage is bias. I certainly might have slipped at some point, but I've tried to avoid saying it's (necessarily) biased.  The usage generates bias, regardless of whether bias was intended.  That's the difference between "biased" and "biasing".
 * A side note on the usage itself. In my experience (admittedly I've a pretty good vantage from which to see a lot), those who feel strongly and are not from the US disapprove of the usage, conversely those who feel strongly that the usage is acceptable are from the US.  I'll go cautiously a bit further and say there's some correlation between those who feel strongly that it's acceptable and those who live in so-called "red states".  --Pi zero (talk) 14:40, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I hope it's ok if I jump in here. I'm Canadian and to me the term "American(s)" conveys an image that the term "US citizen" does not. To me, I hear or read "Americans" and think of loud, pushy people who are insensitive to international customs. (I'm well aware that not all people in the US fit this image!) I expect that many people in the US have a rather more positive image when they hear or read the term. Whatever image comes to mind, I think that the fact that the term does convey an image or subtext to readers (I think my English teachers called this "connotations of words") contributes to it being a biased term. Using it doesn't just describe people's citizenship but adds implicit information (which may be positive or negative depending on the reader) and this implicit information makes it not neutral. Ca2james (talk) 05:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The main upshot I see is that "U.S. citizen" is a legal status and "American" is a cultural status. A person who is one is almost always also the other, but a Dreamer (someone who was brought to the U.S. illegally as a child), for example, is often an American even though not a U.S. citizen. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:59, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree there's a meaningful distinction there, although the fundamental problem with the "American" usage remains. --Pi zero (talk) 04:33, 2 December 2017 (UTC)


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Football: Benzema signs contract extension with Real Madrid

September 22, 2017 Yesterday, French  signed a contract extension with Spanish capital  club Real Madrid, the club announced via their official website. The new contract runs until June 2021.

Now-29-year-old Benzema joined Los Blancos from in 2009. Since then the French international has won fourteen trophies including three UEFA Champions League titles and two LaLiga titles.

Since joining the club at age 21, Benzema has featured in 371 matches for the club and scored 181 goals.

Per the previous contract, Benzema was tied to Real Madrid until June 2019. Earlier, Brazilian defender, and Spanish midfielder and his compatriot , signed contract extensions with Madrid until June 2022. Madrid announced agreement to contract extension with Benzema on Wednesday.


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