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Wikinews:Water cooler/proposals/archives/2016/December

Weekly live chat meetings/workshops
I would like to experiment with weekly live chat sessions at #wikinews-en or #wikinews (which is better?), announced on-site and on social media, where we can get together and collaborate on This is a hard question because of timezones. Which day of week and what time would you be available at in UTC? What do you think of the idea?
 * possibly helping newcomers (if there are any attending) to write, or
 * try to get the review and draft queues killed (if no newcomers are attending, or if there's enough contributors attending to handle both tasks).

I would be willing to do note-taking for each such meeting, if I am attending and people are interested in notes (people ABC attending, so-and-so X article written, article Y corrected, article Z reviewed, etc). Thanks. --Gryllida 00:45, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 * 18:00-20:00 (easier) or 10:00-11:00 (harder) any day of week. --Gryllida 00:45, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That is the UTC time? (It would be difficult for the south east Asian citizens as that would be college/ working/ school time.) Agastya Chandrakant   ⚽ 🏆 🎾 🎬 🎤 📰  08:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Disaster template
Can we remove the tornado image from the template?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154319397873049&id=48245858048

Every story in the category takes the image as it's lead on Facebook, even if there's an actual image in the article. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Is this a recent development? For some time we made sure the main image on the article was at least 260px, because brianmc had reported a problem with facebook if the image was smaller than that, but now that you've jogged my memory I realized I forgot and stopped doing that a while ago (not sure exactly when, off hand).  --Pi zero (talk) 02:56, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * So select a different image, or remove it. In any event, we will not and can not reduce our site to suit somebody else's. If it is no longer possible to choose another image or deselect, that's Facebook's problem. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 11:18, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I tried to remove it a week ago, but it appeared to be a template in the template. I don't see how removing a generic image would be a reduction. In other templates, the generic images are genetically relevant, like the Ukraine flag and map for Ukrainian articles.
 * Yes,, on desktop you can substitute images, but ultimately we need to make things as easy as possible for readers to share Wikinews content, to ensure we're supporting the maintenance of an active readership base, how ever they choose to find the content.
 * Not sure how long term the issue has been, . I've been the one updating Facebook for the last few months, it's possible that I've just forgotten. --  Zanimum (talk) 11:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Replacing the image with something preferable, that's an acceptable solution. I'm more than happy for that kind of action to aid with fb. Simply removing the image altogether, and leaving a bland text-only infobox? That's something I'm not up for. Especially if the problem's roots aren't even with Facebook themselves but rather an insistence on doing things via mobile. Mobile browsers are improving all the time but they still aren't fit for purpose, in much the way mobile phone cameras only became serviceable in the last few years. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 11:51, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I've heard you were updating facebook, which is deeply appreciated. Customizing the infoboxen is designed to be easy; at Disasters and accidents, it says "Customize this infobox here" with a link to a table containing customizing parameters.  In this case they're likely self-explanatory, though there's a link to where documentation on the fields can be found.  I agree with BRS, a different image would be fine; I've been thinking for years the Disasters and accidents infobox image is often less topical than the images on other infoboxen.  As I mentioned, making the main image a little bit bigger might fix the problem, which I don't mind trying although there's a bit of a problem with remembering to do it consistently.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:32, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Been chewing this over. How do people feel about using a closeup of a blue emergency vehicle light for the infobox? Preferably on a red vehicle, implying a fire and rescue service (don't want the subconscious association to be police). BRS (Talk)   (Contribs) 00:52, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good concept, to me. --Pi zero (talk) 00:55, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Commons seems remarkably sparse; I did find File:Red Lights and Sirens.jpg which feels a bit busy for an infobox. One option is to dig through loads of fire engine images and crop one in HD that already focuses on, say, the cab. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 00:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Have replaced with File:Blue lightbar (fire and rescue).jpg, uploaded for the purpose after finding Commons rather sparse and trawling through Flickr for a while. Hopefully this should work better as a fallback disasters and accidents generic pic. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 02:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That is a good choice. I would say a military helicopter might also be suitable since military personnel are involved in either helping out causing the disasters and accidents. Agastya Chandrakant   ⚽ 🏆 🎾 🎬 🎤 📰  03:22, 17 December 2016 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/proposals/archives/2016/November

Source for funding and sharing
Institute for Nonprofit News Has the Wikinews community ever reached out to join the INN? I think this could be a good way of getting funding and sharing resources with other news agencies performing journalism in the public interest. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:03, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * We'd need an incorporated entity. Wikinews is just part of the WMF; Laura wanted us to set up an incorporated entity, of course, but the WMF sabotaged that.  --Pi zero (talk) 18:17, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Then could we get the WMF at large to do it or Wikinewsie? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:44, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I would not trust the WMF to get involved if they were willing to, which I don't think they would. Their collective notion of what they should be doing, while painfully at odds which what they should be doing for the sake of Wikipedia, is far, far more at odds with news principles.  And Wikinewsie is atm an internet domain, not a legal entity in itself.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:25, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry: that's what I was trying to ask--can we incorporate it as an independent non-profit? Would you be interested? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:42, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That would be a question on which to bring in Brian McNeil. I'll look into whether I can get in touch with him after the review I've just started.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:48, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * , Let me know what I can do. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

, Do you think we could incorporate for funding? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Wikinews:Water cooler/proposals/archives/2016/October

Saving the articles
Many news applications have an option to save an article to read later. So, should we provide an option to save the articles for future reading for registered users? And it has to be different from the watchlist as the watchlist keeps on growing. acagastya 09:15, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hm. There would have to be persistent data storage somewhere, to remember which articles are involved, and it would have to detect when a previously-saved article has been read.  It can't be stored on the public wiki, since that would create an invasion-of-privacy problem.  Cookies, I suppose; I've never worked with them, so don't know the techniques.  Javascript, probably.  --Pi zero (talk)
 * We will create a script and mention how it works and that script will create a link on the left hand menu to add the article to a pager in userspace to do that. If the article is already listed, there will be an option to remove it. How about that? acagastya 13:41, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Based on cookies, or storing info in the public wiki? Sounds... challenging to implement. In competition with, well, everything else. There is no left menu in the mobile view; I'd think mobile users might be a significant part of the clientele for the feature. All my objections as may be, this is an interesting idea.  It would probably want to be a gadget, perhaps (once working smoothly) enabled by default for all registered users.  --Pi zero (talk) 14:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2016/August

Save/Publish
The Editing team is planning to change the name of the “ ” button to “  ” and “  ”. “ ” will be used when you create a new page. “ ” will be used when you change an existing page. The names will be consistent in all editing environments.

This change will probably happen during the week of 30 August 2016. The change will be announced in Tech News when it happens.

If you are fluent in a language other than English, please check the status of translations at translatewiki.net for “ ” and “  ”.

The main reason for this change is to avoid confusion for new editors. Repeated user research studies with new editors have shown that some new editors believed that “ ” would save a private copy of a new page in their accounts, rather than permanently publishing their changes on the web. It is important for this part of the user interface to be clear, since it is difficult to remove public information after it is published. We believe that the confusion caused by the “ ” button increases the workload for experienced editors, who have to clean up the information that people unintentionally disclose, and report it to the functionaries and stewards to suppress it. Clarifying what the button does will reduce this problem.

Beyond that, the goal is to make all the wikis and languages more consistent, and some wikis made this change many years ago. The Legal team at the Wikimedia Foundation supports this change. Making the edit interface easier to understand will make it easier to handle licensing and privacy questions that may arise.

Any help pages or other basic documentation about how to edit pages will also need to be updated, on-wiki and elsewhere. On wiki pages, you can use the wikitext codes  and   to display the new labels in the user's preferred language. For the language settings in your account preferences, these wikitext codes produce “ ” and “  ”.

Please share this news with community members who teach new editors and with others who may be interested. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Hello, Wikinews contributors.
 * User:Pi zero and I have been talking about this change, and we'd like to try something different. It might be confusing to start with a "Publish page" button, since the first edit to an article is not the end of the Wikinews publishing process as outlined in Reviewing articles.  So we are going to try this instead:  The "Save page" button will stay the same, but MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning will have a statement added to warn inexperienced people that their contributions will immediately be shared with the general public.
 * We are assuming that every Wikinews is using a similar structure for reviewing, and therefore we are going to try this at all Wikinewses. To do this, I need the  statement translated for the copyright warning file right away!  If you speak a Wikinews language (other than English), please check m:User:Whatamidoing (WMF)/Wikinews.  It's just two sentences and should (I hope) be easy for anyone who is bilingual or multilingual.  I need these translations this week, if at all possible.
 * If you have any questions or need to reach me, then please ping me. Thanks, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:11, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2016/December

Article creation wizard discussion
Hi all,

This proposal suggests WMF to fund the writing of an article creation wizard at Wikipedia, but with enough interest it may -- or may it not? -- be expanded to write an article creation wizards framework or library for use at non-Wikipedia wikis, such as here. If desired, please join the discussion before December 12. (I've sent this message to English wikis; I ask you to deliver it to non-English wikis, if you can. Even delivering it in English there may be better than nothing.)

 * What tools do we use here, now, to make article creation easier for newbies?
 * What requirements do we have for a potential implementation?
 * How would you like to inform the people of the article creation perks and difficulties on this wiki?
 * What else needs to be considered?

Thanks. --Gryllida 03:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Article creation is one of the several major things on my list that I hope eventually to support using my dialog tools. The further into that development I get, the more I'm convinced it's impossible for a centralized organization such as the WMF to do properly what I'm doing.  I don't think it's even possible to lay out a plan for this and then do it; every step along my path has been improvised, it's rarely been possible to see more than one or two steps ahead.  What the Foundation end up doing instead is actively counter-productive, stuff that continuously curtails what ordinary users can do, restricting infrastructure development to an elite and especially to an elite employed by the WMF.  The Foundation can't help operating like that, it follows from a potent synergy of their corporate culture with their corporate structure.  --Pi zero (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I know we've talked here and at a little bit about development. Do you have a roadmap that you've posted anywhere to discuss? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll say a bit, below, about that next step or two ahead that I can see atm.
 * Regarding what has been written down — although I've largely chosen to devote my volunteer time and effort to actually developing tools, rather than talking about developing tools (or, even worse, trying to convince someone else to give me permission to develop tools). Besides the documentation for the tools, which I've tried to do well because I, myself, hate having to try to use software that's not well-documented.
 * I wrote a general essay, at User:Pi zero/essays/vision/sisters. There's some discussion on its talk page of what sorts of things might be built using dialog.
 * I also mentioned the dialog tools once on MediaWiki, at User Interaction Consultation/Wikidialog; there's a bit of discussion on the Evil Flow page there. There was also a reference to that MediaWiki page at meta.
 * I have in mind that a user can go to any page and have dialog-based context-sensitive help for things they might want to do there. I'm now crafting basic elements toward that goal:  I'm well along in designing a mechanism to supply context-sensitive information to assistants so they can offer advice, and I'm marshaling my thoughts toward a mechanism for keeping track of situations where users disagree with advice (which is needed both so that the advice given doesn't just keep offering itself until somebody takes the advice, not realizing there was a reason it wasn't taken in a particular situation, and so that in the long run the community can take such exceptions into account when considering how to modify or expand advice).  A basic principle in all of this is, of course, that the goal is to empower ordinary wiki users, and that it's impossible to do that with a rigidly structured system, or with a system that isn't thoroughly grounded in ordinary wiki markup.
 * --Pi zero (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't like my above account of where things are going, because it's really low-level. I haven't done enough to explain the big picture; that's always been a problem with explaining the dialog tools.  It's a special art, to choose primitive tools that look rather innocent themselves but make it possible to do great things; it may be easy look at the low-level tools and not see the potential in them, and then how can you convince other people of their worth?  My grand vision for these things is rather breathtaking, if only I could communicate it.  As a small step, I'll try to explain a little more of why I want to help tools get context-sensitive information and track exceptions to rules.
 * A key principle of wikis is that when you're reading a wiki, if you see something that could be better, you can just fix it, without going through some big rigamarole with a bureaucracy and without having to have lots of special technical skills. (Yes, wiki markup is really amazingly easy — compared to every alternative.  Making wiki markup better is productive, whereas anything that moves away from it is counter-productive.)  My core idea is that, with just a few simple additions to the capabilities of wiki markup — mainly, text boxes and buttons for sending their content somewhere — it should become possible for a community of ordinary wiki users to grow semi-automated assistants ("wizards") in the same way that the community grows the wiki content itself.  But, for that to become real, it has to be possible for an ordinary user, who is using a semi-automated assistant, to see that the assistant could be doing something better, and just fix it — without going through some big rigamarole with a bureaucracy and without having to have lots of special technical skills.  And this is where things get really interesting, because those primitives I've added to wiki markup address the first half of that goal but not the second.  That is, the primitives make it possible to just-fix-it without going through some big rigamarole with a bureaucracy, but I know from experience that it's logistically difficult to keep track of what you're doing when you're trying to built or maintain one of these semi-automated assistants.  And the obvious solution to that problem is to provide semi-automated assistance for building and maintaining semi-automated assistants.  That is, meta-assistants.  How does one design a meta-assistant?  By designing and building assistants, and thinking deeply about what one is doing during the process.  I've chosen certain particular devices, that I believe can be built using the primitives, and that I believe are necessary for a wide class of assistants including meta-assistants, and now as I start to plan out the details of these devices I'm also thinking deeply about what I can learn from the process about how a meta-assistant has to work.
 * --Pi zero (talk) 20:03, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that many features of the experiences between wikis here are not that user-friendly nor are they new-user-friendly. And some processes which should more-or-less be the same across wikis are different due to bureaucratic rules or because the same gadget/userscript/module/template isn't available cross-wiki (e.g. renaming a category at versus at  or proposing an image for deletion, which is confusing at  to me). I'm not sure how I can help you but I'd like to if I can. I think you do a lot of good work—particularly on this wiki and . —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:27, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

New way to edit wikitext
Summary: There's a new opt-in Beta Feature of a wikitext mode for the visual editor. Please go try it out.

We in the Wikimedia Foundation's Editing department are responsible for making editing better for all our editors, new and experienced alike. We've been slowly improving the visual editor based on feedback, user tests, and feature requests. However, that doesn't work for all our user needs: whether you need to edit a wikitext talk page, create a template, or fix some broken reference syntax, sometimes you need to use wikitext, and many experienced editors prefer it.

Consequently, we've planned a "wikitext mode" for the visual editor for a long time. It provides as much of the visual editor's features as possible, for those times that you need or want wikitext. It has the same user interface as the visual editor, including the same toolbar across the top with the same buttons. It provides access to the citoid service for formatting citations, integrated search options for inserting images, and the ability to add new templates in a simple dialog. Like in the visual editor, if you paste in formatted text copied from another page, then formatting (such as bolding) will automatically be converted into wikitext.

All wikis now have access to this mode as a Beta Feature. When enabled, it replaces your existing wikitext editor everywhere. If you don't like it, you can reverse this at any time by turning off the Beta Feature in your preferences. We don't want to surprise anyone, so it's strictly an opt-in-only Beta Feature. It won't switch on automatically for anyone, even if you have previously checked the box to "".

The new wikitext edit mode is based on the visual editor, so it requires JavaScript (as does the current wikitext editor). It doesn't work with gadgets that have only been designed for the older one (and vice versa), so some users will miss gadgets they find important. We're happy to work with gadget authors to help them update their code to work with both editors. We're not planning to get rid of the current main wikitext editor on desktop in the foreseeable future. We're also not going to remove the existing ability to edit plain wikitext without JavaScript. Finally, though it should go without saying, if you prefer to continue using the current wikitext editor, then you may so do.

This is an early version, and we'd love to know what you think so we can make it better. Please leave feedback about the new mode on the feedback page. You may write comments in any language. Thank you.

James Forrester (Product Manager, Editing department, Wikimedia Foundation) --19:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Just curious.......
Who is this person, who's been modifying loads of templates here? --Bddpaux (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I did!
 * That account is now globally locked. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 20:33, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2016/November

Password reset
''I apologise that this message is in English. ''

We are having a problem with attackers taking over wiki accounts with privileged user rights (for example, admins, bureaucrats, oversighters, checkusers). It appears that this may be because of weak or reused passwords.

Community members are working along with members of multiple teams at the Wikimedia Foundation to address this issue.

In the meantime, we ask that everyone takes a look at the passwords they have chosen for their wiki accounts. If you know that you've chosen a weak password, or if you've chosen a password that you are using somewhere else, please change those passwords.

Select strong passwords – eight or more characters long, and containing letters, numbers, and punctuation. Joe Sutherland (m:User talk:JSutherland (WMF)) / MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Adding to the above section (Password reset)
Please accept my apologies - that first line should read "Help with translations!". Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) / MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:11, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2016/October

submit button
My dialog tools — coded recently and defensively — are so far continuing to work while older javascript gets less reliable day by day. So I've deployed the new submit button on the develop and tasks templates. I plan to wait a bit and then remove the old javascript code from Common.js. --Pi zero (talk) 23:35, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Old code removed. --Pi zero (talk) 13:54, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And, new button recreated under a different naming scheme, as assistant/submit. --Pi zero (talk) 01:55, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Creative Commons 4.0
Hello! I'm writing from the Wikimedia Foundation to invite you to give your feedback on a proposed move from CC BY-SA 3.0 to a CC BY-SA 4.0 license across all Wikimedia projects. The consultation will run from October 5 to November 8, and we hope to receive a wide range of viewpoints and opinions. Please, if you are interested, take part in the discussion on Meta-Wiki.

''Apologies that this message is only in English. This message can be read and translated in more languages here.'' Joe Sutherland (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Developer Summit wants you
The Wikimedia Developer Summit is the annual meeting to push the evolution of MediaWiki and other technologies supporting the Wikimedia movement. The next edition will be held in San Francisco on January 9–11, 2017.

We welcome all Wikimedia technical contributors, third party developers, and users of MediaWiki and the Wikimedia APIs. We specifically want to increase the participation of volunteer developers and other contributors dealing with extensions, apps, tools, bots, gadgets, and templates.

Important deadlines:

 * Monday, October 24: last day to request travel sponsorship. Applying takes less than five minutes.
 * Monday, October 31: last day to propose an activity. Bring the topics you care about!

More information: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit

Subscribe to weekly updates: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Td5wfd70vptn8eu4 MKramer (WMF) (talk) 19:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Editing News #3—2016
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter

 Did you know?

Did you know that you can easily re-arrange columns and rows in the visual editor?

Select a cell in the column or row that you want to move. Click the arrow at the start of that row or column to open the dropdown menu (shown). Choose either "Move before" or "Move after" to move the column, or "Move above" or "Move below" to move the row.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has mainly worked on a new wikitext editor. They have also released some small features and the new map editing tool. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the list of work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, releasing the 2017 wikitext editor as a beta feature, and improving language support.

Recent changes

 * You can now set text as small or big.
 * Invisible templates have been shown as a puzzle icon. Now, the name of the invisible template is displayed next to the puzzle icon.  A similar feature will display the first part of hidden HTML comments.
 * Categories are displayed at the bottom of each page. If you click on the categories, the dialog for editing categories will open.
 * At many wikis, you can now add maps to pages. Go to the Insert menu and choose the "Maps" item. The Discovery department is adding more features to this area, like geoshapes. You can read more at mediawiki.org.
 * The "Save" button now says "Save page" when you create a page, and "Save changes" when you change an existing page. In the future, the "" button will say "".  This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems.  More information is available on Meta.
 * Image galleries now use a visual mode for editing. You can see thumbnails of the images, add new files, remove unwanted images, rearrange the images by dragging and dropping, and add captions for each image.  Use the "Options" tab to set the gallery's display mode, image sizes, and add a title for the gallery.

Future changes
The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining 10 "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next month. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect several languages, including Thai, Burmese and Aramaic.

The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. The 2017 wikitext editor will look like the visual editor and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices in October 2016. You can read about this project in a general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list.

Let's work together

 * Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki? Have you written or imported TemplateData for your most important citation templates? Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor?  Please sign up for the new VisualEditor Community Taskforce.
 * If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready.

—Elitre (WMF) 17:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)


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RevisionSlider
From September 13th on, RevisionSlider will be available as a beta feature in your wiki. The RevisionSlider adds a slider view to the diff page, so that you can easily move between revisions. The feature fulfills a wish from the German Community’s Technical Wishlist. Everyone is invited to test the feature and we hope that it will serve you well in your work! Birgit Müller (WMDE) 14:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Open call for Project Grants
Greetings! The Project Grants program is accepting proposals from September 12 to October 11 to fund new tools, research, offline outreach (including editathon series, workshops, etc), online organizing (including contests), and other experiments that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers. Project Grants can support you and your team’s project development time in addition to project expenses such as materials, travel, and rental space. Also accepting candidates to join the Project Grants Committee through October 1.
 * Submit a grant request or draft your proposal in IdeaLab
 * Get help with your proposal in an upcoming Hangout session
 * Learn from examples of completed Individual Engagement Grants or Project and Event Grants

With thanks, I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 14:49, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikinewsie upgrade?
Please update It appears that http://wikinewsie.org/ has been in the process of being upgraded for a month now. Is there an ETA on it? Also, I think the site should get a certificate from https://letsencrypt.org/ for SSL/TLS. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:37, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Grants to improve your project
Greetings! The Project Grants program is currently accepting proposals for funding. There is just over a week left to submit before the October 11 deadline. If you have ideas for software, offline outreach, research, online community organizing, or other projects that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers, start your proposal today! Please encourage others who have great ideas to apply as well. Support is available if you want help turning your idea into a grant request. I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Submit a grant request
 * Get help: In IdeaLab or an upcoming Hangout session
 * Learn from examples of completed Individual Engagement Grants or Project and Event Grants


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Wikinews:Water cooler/technical/archives/2017/January

New template to replace magic words
Template:ISBN I have ported over w:Template:ISBN and w:Module:Check isxn from en.wp. Magic words as links are being phased out and although we don't have to replace all instances of them now, they will all be removed from MediaWiki in 2017. See Requests_for_comment/Future_of_magic_links. We have about a dozen entries in Category:Pages using ISBN magic links which will need an admin to replace. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:30, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This looks like a cut-and-paste copying rather than a porting, and we don't support Special:Import from en.wp for the good reason that it'd violate the copyright of stuff on en.wp. So I'm unclear on the legal status of this stuff.  (I'm surprised, actually, that we have a dozen instances.  But I wouldn't put it past the Foundation to discontinue some feature and not care whether or not it's even legal for us to fix the damage.)  --Pi zero (talk) 02:57, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * If you are suggesting that there is a potential legal issue from this code being copied from en.wp which uses CC BY-SA to here (using CC BY), then I suppose it's not strictly speaking impossible but I find it unlikely that there would be any lawsuits. If you have a better solution or if you think the template should be deleted, then I'm all ears. Either way, it looks like hard-coding of ISBN (and RFC and PMID) links will be disappearing in a matter of months so we should figure out something prior to then to keep the pages from breaking. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Spoiler warning: A long time ago, a bunch of templates were copypasta'd from WP. So we've been doing this since like '06 or something. Looking at the code for this one I have serious doubts it meets the threshold of originality; in plain English, I don't think that little snippet of code is necessarily even eligible for copyright protection. BRS  (Talk)   (Contribs) 14:16, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

What would it take to import Wikipedia's in-line citation mechanism?
Our limiting reagent on Wikinews appears to be how fast an article can get through review. Providing in-line citation saying which source supports which facts (preferably with room to add a comment like "hit CTRL-f '[keyword]'") would make the job faster and easier for the reviewers. It would also make writing follow-up stories easier. Just today I was writing a story and wanted to include some of the same background facts from another one that I wrote a week and a half ago. I didn't remember which of the sources had provided the facts I wanted and had to click on several of them, using up part of my free NYTimes allotment for the month. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

 * If the background facts you want to use are in a previously published Wikinews article, it doesn't matter what sources they came from. Cite the previously published Wikinews article, by listing it in a Related news section.  Going back to the original sources instead would be more work for the writer and more work for the reviewer. As for in-line citations, it can be very helpful to put an embedded html comment after a fact in the article saying which of the sources (or related news) the fact can be found in.  That technique has been used to very good effect in William S. Saturn's On the campaign trail articles.  --Pi zero (talk) 04:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Btw: if you cite a previous Wikinews article as Related news, you can then use the text from it verbatim (if that makes sense in context); there's no copyright issue, since Wikinews's license is, in fact, compatible with Wikinews's license.  Which makes it even easier to use a previous Wikinews article as a source, compared to the difficulty of going back to external sources.  --Pi zero (talk) 04:42, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


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Local uploads?
You have locally uploaded two media files. Please explain. What is their purpose here? Unless this is explained, they will have to be deleted. --Pi zero (talk) 12:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The files have been deleted. --Pi zero (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You've continued to upload with no explanation; I'm giving you a temporary block. --Pi zero (talk) 16:23, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

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Thread:Comments:U.S. federal judge halts Trump's ban on refugees, people from Muslim countries entering U.S./the title is inaccurate/reply (4)

My immediate reaction (as seen above) was, yeah, that headline is not ideal. On further thought I'm not convinced it's partisan; it doesn't seem entirely accurate, though. The judge in this article didn't halt the ban, just part of it.


text:
Travel to U.S. resumes after federal judge blocks executive order

February 6, 2017

In response to a lawsuit filed by Washington State attorney Bob Ferguson in Seattle, federal judge  on Saturday ordered the suspension of a January 27  issued by U.S. President Donald J. Trump suspending entry to the U.S. by refugees and individuals from seven -majority countries. The complied with the judge's ruling but the  also requested an emergency stay so that enforcement of the executive order could resume. That stay was rejected early yesterday morning.

Judge Robart ruled against the order on the grounds that there was no evidence it was "to protect the U.S. from individuals" described in the executive order. This follows the temporary suspension of this order issued a week earlier by another federal judge,, though while Donnelly's stay focused on preventing the deportation of travelers who had already reached the U.S. or were at that time en route, under Robart's ruling, approximately 60,000 revoked visas are to be returned to the people to whom they had been issued, not all of whom had already left for the U.S. People whose visas were physically taken away must apply for replacements. Yesterday, several Middle Eastern airlines had already begun to board passengers, and refugee flights were expected to resume today. Representatives from the U.S. State Department said officials would coordinate replacement travel plans for refugees over the next few weeks and that the difficulty many of them face traveling from camps to airports may cause some delay. The Department of Homeland Security issued a statement saying they would comply with the order while the Department of Justice requested an emergency stay of the judge's ruling. The appeal was filed on Saturday night with the, which declined to overturn Robart's decision, stating "Appellants' request for an immediate administrative stay pending full consideration of the emergency motion for a stay pending appeal is denied." The appellants, the Trump administration and Justice Department, were asked to file a counter-response promptly. The matter could ultimately go to the.

President Trump was more direct. "What is our country coming to when a judge can halt a Homeland Security travel ban and anyone, even with bad intentions, can come into U.S.?" he said via. "The judge opens up our country to potential terrorists and others that do not have our best interests at heart. Bad people are very happy!" In another Tweet, he referred to Robart as a "so-called judge" and expressed confidence the ruling would be overturned. He also claimed, "Interesting that certain Middle-Eastern countries agree with the ban. They know if certain people are allowed in it's death & destruction!" Judge Robart acquired his post under president George W. Bush and was confirmed by a strong majority vote in the. Washington Attorney General Ferguson, who said his actions were non-partisan, has filed lawsuits against president Barack Obama.

, named "Protecting the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry into the United States," suspended entry of all refugees for 120 days, of all Syrian refugees indefinitely, and forbade the entry of any individual from seven Muslim-majority countries, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Syria. It was met with protests and with lawsuits in several U.S. states, including the one ruled upon by Judge Robart. This lawsuit claimed that the executive order targeted Muslims in a manner that violated the U.S. Constitution. The, Republican Paul Ryan, expressly disagreed: "This is not a Muslim ban. If it were, I would be against it," he said. Democrat of New York said the president's criticism of Judge Robart might affect the confirmation process for his recent Supreme Court nominee,. Patrick Leahy, a Democrat on the Senate Judiciary committee, said Trump's "hostility toward the rule of law is not just embarrassing, it is dangerous" and questioned whether Trump was trying to "precipitate a constitutional crisis." Other politicians, such as Republicans John McCain and, expressed concern this order could create tension with Muslim-majority countries that currently enjoy good relations with the U.S., such as Jordan.

Others reacted specifically to Trump's vehemence toward Robart. "It's hard for the president to demand that courts respect his inherent authority when he is disrespecting the inherent authority of the judiciary. That certainly tends to poison the well for litigation," said law Professor Jonathan Turley of George Washington University. Vice President Mike Pence pointed out President Trump is already known for not pulling his verbal punches. "I think the American people are very accustomed to this president speaking his mind and speaking very straight with them," he said.


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Talk:Travel to U.S. resumes after federal judge blocks executive order

There were concerns about bias and partisanship in the title of my last article on this executive order. I've tried to keep it to the facts (oddly, by making the title longer via inclusion of the necessary caveats), but please pay the title special attention. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Title
Do we really need such a big title? Like how about "Travel resumes after U.S. federal judge locks executive order suspending entry of refugees"? Agastya Chandrakant  ⚽ 🏆 🎾 🎬 🎤 📰  19:39, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * A lot of them aren't refugees. They're people like international students who went back to their home countries for winter break, U.S. permanent residents who were out visiting relatives or on vacation, and just regular immigrants who'd waited their turn for admission. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:04, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What about "Immigrants, visa holders resume travel to U.S. after federal judge blocks executive order"? kamnet (talk) 09:17, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:41, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Upon reflection, it doesn't seem to include green card holders. Not a dealbreaker.  Just an imperfection. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Trying something simpler. --Pi zero (talk) 14:49, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

"Some Muslim countries agree"
I did a cursory search before review this morning and while there were at that time many sources indicating that Trump said this, there were none examining the facts behind it. I think that's going to be a thing with the Trump administration. They say something or refer to something like "Like when I won the apple tournament." We have to find another source about whether they won the tournament or in fact whether the tournament even exists. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:29, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed. --Pi zero (talk) 17:34, 6 February 2017 (UTC)


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text: Comments:Travel to U.S. resumes after federal judge blocks executive order


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text:
Scientists say new medical diagnostic chip can sort cells anywhere with an inkjet

February 9, 2017 On Monday, scientists from the announced the invention of a new diagnostic tool that can sort cells by type: a tiny printable chip that can be manufactured using standard inkjet printers for possibly about one U.S.  each. Lead researchers say this may bring early detection of cancer, tuberculosis, HIV and malaria to patients in low-income countries, where the survival rates for illnesses such as breast cancer can be half those of richer countries. Existing methods tend to identify cell types using fluorescent or magnetic labels, which take time to attach, but this platform uses the phenomenon of : because different kinds of cells have different levels of receptivity to electrical fields, a trait called, when an electric potential gradient is activated around the chip, different cells are pulled in different directions at different speeds. This allows doctors to diagnose cancer by determining the number of tumor cells in a patient's blood sample. Different chips can be printed to diagnose different diseases.

Physically, the scientists say, the system has two parts. Cells are held in a clear microfluidic chamber made of. The chip itself is an electronic strip that can be printed onto flexible polyester. Most devices must be manufactured by professional staff in specialized facilities called  and can take weeks, but the chip component of this system can be made almost anywhere in as little as twenty minutes. The chips cost approximately one U.S. cent to produce (0.01) and can be reused. For comparison, a standard machine can cost US$100,000 to purchase.

"Enabling early detection of diseases is one of the greatest opportunities we have for developing effective treatments," said lead author and electrical engineer Dr. Rahim Esfandyarpour. "Maybe $1 in the U.S. doesn't count that much, but somewhere in the developing world, it's a lot of money."

Senior author Dr. of the Stanford University Genome Technology Center compared this invention to that of low-cost genome sequencing, which helped lead to personalized medicine.

The findings appeared in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences on Monday.


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Talk:Scientists say new medical diagnostic chip can sort cells anywhere with an inkjet

headline
Seems this headline might add the word "medical" somewhere, perhaps in the neighborhood of "diagnostic", lest the reader have no idea from the headline what sort of tool this is. --Pi zero (talk) 02:41, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I really want the headline to be catchier, but not everything is laser mice. I will ponder it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * "Scientists say new printable diagnostic chip could allow early cancer detection, save lives in low-income countries" Ugh, still so bland. We're talking revolutionary levels of accessibility here!  Bringing science to the people! Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Current proposal is overly long, by bringing in clean rooms (which are not part of "tell[ing] the most important and unique thing" here) and partly redundant printers. Will want some collapsing during review if not before.  --Pi zero (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Well I could bang my head against it some more, but if anyone else has any ideas, no need to wait. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:34, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I've tried something with the headline. Frustratingly (a mild term for what I'm feeling) I didn't get to reviewing it today.  --Pi zero (talk) 01:20, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Real life imposing itself on the wikischedule again? Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:29, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Note on sources
I like to include the actual study mostly for anyone who wants to go look at it (and to introduce newbs and students to "this is what a scientific paper looks like"). I used the abstract (the publicly visible portion), NOT the whole thing. (That's why the link leads to the abstract and not the whole thing.) If there is any specific fact that is in the abstract and not also in the Eurekalert writeup, I will mark it in the Wikicode. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:38, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * When covering release of a scientific paper, it's highly desirable to provide readers with a link to the paper (I hate when some msm outlets omit the link). If we don't draw on it at all, so that it's not a source, it goes in a separate section after Sources called External links.  --Pi zero (talk) 13:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay done. Anything not from Eurekalert is marked in Wikicode.
 * I've got some concerns about Indian Express. While it does contain some information not also found in the Eurekalert article, the two are so similar that I think the latter was probably the basis for the former.  If we're just going for proof of notability, that should be fine, but independence is also a factor.  Should we hold off until an additional source is available? Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Now that I've carefully studied them, I don't think there is anything in the PTI article that's not in Eurekalert. A fresh lede has been written, some things have been left out, some things have been reordered, but afaics it's a completely derivative work. So we're left with the paper itself, and the press release through Eurekalert.  This leaves the sourcing very thin; just the Eurekalert press release plus the paper itself.  That's clearly less breadth of sourcing than we prefer, although I find a couple of cases in the archives where that's all we managed (one from 2011 and one from 2014, iirc).  It's further bothersome than the scientists are all from the same university — no internal breadth via collaboration between multiple universities.  I'm going to think about that a bit (while, as it happens, eating supper).  --Pi zero (talk) 22:32, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Stanford's PR including press image of lead author, chip, senior author. Media contacts: jeanne.thompson{at}stanford.edu. NB: Supplemental information (pdf)
 * Looking for the authors:
 * Rahim Esfanyarpour
 * Researchgate
 * Google Scholar
 * Staff directory entry
 * Matthew J. DiDonato
 * Researchgate
 * Yuxin Yang
 * Researchgate
 * Google Scholar
 * Naside Gozde Durmus
 * Researchgate
 * Google Scholar
 * Ronald W. Davis, Prof
 * Researchgate
 * Google Scholar
 * Staff directory entry
 * Profile
 * Publications

Review of revision 4286148 [Not ready]

 * I ran a fresh search and found a few more, but they all seem very similar to the press release themselves. Maybe wait a day and see if mainstream picks it up.  There's usually a lag. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:31, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, the original event is now on its third-day-after (as of about a quarter hour ago). After the third day freshness gets to be a tough sell; one needs "new information come to light" (cf. WN:Newsworthiness). I thought I saw something in a gnews search saying something about asking a scientist not involved in the research who basically said, yeah, it'd be important if they can do that.  And I thought, good for them.  Of course, Wikinewsies have been known to bypass the freshness problem for scientific research by interviewing a researcher; I see FAs of this type in our archives by BRS and Gryllida (, though not all of those of are this type).  --Pi zero (talk) 00:31, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Listing similar articles
I found a few the other day and may go back and repeat them here if I feel like it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:41, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Science Daily
 * Stanford.edu

Aaaaaaand jackpot:
 * Popular Science


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Contributing
Hi. Welcome; glad you're interested in contributing here. There's a compact overview of principles at WN:Pillars of Wikinews writing. Then, there's a good tutorial on writing a first article at WN:Writing an article. There's also a description of the process of writing an article at WN:Article wizard. --Pi zero (talk) 04:05, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

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World Cup winner Philipp Lahm to hang up his boots

February 9, 2017

On Tuesday, German ex-football captain and 2014 winner Philipp Lahm announced he will retire as a football player at the end of this season. Lahm's current contract is to expire in 2018. , the 33-year-old defender said. Lahm also declined to fill FC Bayern's sporting director vacancy; Matthias Sammer, left the post in July.

Philipp Lahm has been at Munich since the age of eleven. Lahm has played 501 matches in the Bavarian colours, the latest a 1–0 win over. The Bayern Munich captain lifted the Bundesliga title on seven occasions with the current defending champions Bayern.

Lahm played 113 international matches for Die Mannschaft, and guided Germany to the World Cup victory in Brazil. Apart from the World Cup gold medal and seven league titles, Lahm has also won the UEFA Champions League in 2013 against Bayern's arch rivals Borussia Dortmund 2–1 at the, six and a  trophy.

Lahm retired internationally in 2014 after the successful World Cup tournament.


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User talk:Arlindo gomes Arlindo

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Local uploads
You locally uploaded some media files without rationale. Please explain why. We've had a lot of spam of this sort lately, in blatant violation of local policy. As a precaution, I've blocked your account until we get an explanation from you. --Pi zero (talk) 21:05, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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Yemen requests reevaluation of U.S. ground operations on its soil following raid

February 11, 2017

The official government of Yemen issued a statement on Wednesday requesting a reevaluation the role of the United States in antiterrorism ground operations on its soil, in response to a January 29 raid by United States that killed several Yemeni citizens.

An earlier report alleged Yemeni officials told the their government had withdrawn its permission for U.S. ground ops, but later Yemeni statements have asked for a "reassessment" of the role of the U.S. in local antiterrorist activities. "We have not withdrawn our permission for the United States to carry out special operations ground missions. However, we made clear our reservations about the last operation," one Yemeni official told Reuters of a meeting between the U.S. ambassador and Yemeni President.

The Yemeni government's remarks stressed consultation before operations. Wednesday's official government statement from the Yemeni embassy in Washington, D.C. read: "The government of Yemen reiterates its firm position that any counter-terrorism operations carried out in Yemen should continue to be in consultation with Yemeni Authorities and have precautionary measures to prevent civilian casualties. Yemen believes that terrorism is a global menace that has no borders, religion or nationality; one that only a collective and well-coordinated response can address."

"Currently, we have not been ordered to stop conducting any operations nor have been directed to halt any operational planning," said Major Josh Jaques, a spokesperson for responsible for the Middle East.

Although there have been many U.S. strikes in Yemen in the past few years, the U.S. has publicly acknowledged only one previous ground raid. Last month's operation was approved by U.S. President Donald Trump after planning under his predecessor President Obama. According to CBS, the SEAL team approached an Al-Qaeda compound in but became pinned down and called in an  for assistance. Fatalities included U.S. . According to the, the raid killed more than a dozen members of Al-Qaeda, and, according to medics on the scene, several civilians. These included amongst others, accordingly to various reports, a three-month-old baby, a pregnant woman, and an eight-year-old girl whose U.S.-born was a religious leader killed in 2011 after allegedly organizing attacks against the U.S. A US$72 million  (medical evacuation) aircraft was also destroyed. One U.S. military official remarked, "almost everything went wrong."

"It was highly successful. It achieved the purpose it was going to get, [save] the loss of life that we suffered and the injuries that occurred," announced White House Press Secretary.

US officials said the goal of the raid was to gather intelligence — reportedly, laptops and other electronics that might contain useful intelligence about Al-Qaeda. One U.S. military official said the raid also targeted Al-Qaeda leader.

Yemen is in the second year of a between  rebels and its internationally recognized government, which made the statement on Wednesday. Extremist groups have used the war to establish Yemeni strongholds. Yemen is also one of the seven -majority nations named in President Trump's January 27 executive order forbidding travel to the United States.

In another political complication, the raid killed an Al-Qaeda commander, a Yemeni government ally against the Houthi. "It was wrong to kill him and the children [...] he fought the Houthis and did not have any thought of launching attacks abroad. If the government allowed this to happen, it was a mistake," said one al-Bayda tribal leader.


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Talk:Yemen requests reevaluation of U.S. ground operations on its soil following raid

Reporter's note
I'd also like this article to mention the implications that this may have for the Trump administration, but I want to keep it fair and neutral. The more eyes the better. Ideally, I'd like to draw a parallel between this and Benghazi. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Seal's name
The Navy Seal's real name, William Owens, is shown in an image in the CBS file, given as "William 'Ryan' Owens." Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:17, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

"American" citizen
A note on the "US is a country; America is a supercontinent" comment: "America" is indeed the country the United States of America and "American" is the corresponding adjective (also the only nationwide demonym). In American English it is actually quite rare to hear "America" or "American" used to refer to North and South America together, though I understand this is less rare in British English (and the Spanish words "americano" and "estadounidense" are another matter altogether). For that, we'd say "the Americas" or "New World" or more likely either "North America(n)" or "South America(n)."

Oxford Dictionaries, which is British lists the "pertaining to USA" definition first. So does the American Heritage Dictionary.

So when I refer to a person as "American" I am not incorrect. I am choosing from among two correct options. In this case, "U.S." felt a little overused. Do not feel as though you have to remove cases of "American" as if they were errors. They are not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

 * US citizens are American. So are Peruvian citizens.  Use of the term (in Wikinews's own voice) "America" for "US" is a sort of cultural imperialism; it's easy to not do it, and insidiously non-neutral to use the broader term (implying an offensive value judgment about other American countries); if it bothers you to say "US" instead of "America[n]", that in itself is suggestive of the bias involved.  (We also try to avoid calling the pro/anti abortion rights positions "pro-choice" and "pro-life", both terms being deliberate propaganda, likewise -phobia terms like homophobia and Islamophobia; it's usually not necessary to explain more than once about not calling anyone a "terrorist" in our own voice, although we had someone for a while quite interested in providing on-the-scene OR from Ukraine but who left in a huff after they were told they weren't allowed to call Ukrainian separatists terrorists no matter what the separatists did.)  --Pi zero (talk) 19:20, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * First, Pi zero, you are absolutely allowed to have personal preferences and beliefs about the word "American." However, when the dictionary definition is one thing and those dictionaries are up to date and that matches real-world usage, then I'm not introducing bias into the article by using the word in that way. If the majority of the sources concur that this is not a loaded term, then treating it as if it were loaded even in an innocuous context could be considered bias. The Washington Post uses "America" in this way.  So does The Guardian (despite their style guide, which suggests this could be a BrE/AmE thing; the American guides I have on hand don't weigh in on this]), and it doesn't seem to be an issue.
 * We happen to have a workaround in this case, the equally correct adjective "U.S." It does not happen to offend me. I find it more convenient to use both synonyms.  If nothing else, excluding this word makes our writing more cluttered. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:52, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * It's biasing. Not just me; this is standard best practice on en.wn.  Just because a dictionary, or another site's news guide, lacks our priorities doesn't make what they say right for en.wn.  Like I said, it's easy, so if it bothers you, introspect.  --Pi zero (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What bothers me is not the term "U.S." itself--you can see how much I use it--but that you are acting like I did something wrong by saying "American" in a completely ordinary way and as if there were only one correct way to refer to America when there is more than one. Like I said, there's nothing wrong or offensive about you having a preference for "U.S." or dislike for "American," and it bugs me when people act like everyone has to share those preferences or else they're, in this case, an imperialist.
 * You matter. Your feelings and comfort level matter.  Your opinions and beliefs matter.  It's okay to say, "I just like this and don't like that, so could we do it this way?" or even "This bothers me because I find it imperialist even though it's common use." Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:08, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * In case it's not clear, I'm not contesting your change to "U.S." in this case. Like I said, it's cluttered but correct. I consider this an academic discussion that could have implications in future articles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You seem to be under the misapprehension this is a whim of mine. I became aware soon after I got full access to the internet (I reckon that would be 1988) that non-USians are liable find the US habit of monopolizing the term American hugely dickish but much of the time they'll figure there's nothing to be done about US arrogance and insensitivity.  There are folks on en.wn outspoken enough to object, and the principles by which we realize our neutrality policy fully support the objection.  I'm very much aware that lots of US folk tend to say "but everyone does it, so it's okay"; that insensitivity to the problem is part of the problem.  (Indeed, the same principle applied to article names on English Wikipedia is a huge gaping hole in that project's neutrality, responsible cumulatively for vast bias.)  --Pi zero (talk) 22:58, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that the majority of non-USians are going to be mortally offended by the national-American usage. You can find some people who will be offended by pretty much anything, though there are intelligent non-USians who do object to it.  My point is that the neutrality problem with the usage is very real, and is not diminished by the fact that USians tend not to notice, or that various international orgs either don't notice or choose not to raise a fuss about it.  Like Wikipedian article naming practices, it creates insidious systemic bias.  (Since I'm the primary example here of a USian who sees the problem, I'll recuse myself on the question of whether there are intelligent USians who see it.)  --Pi zero (talk) 00:49, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think you're the only person who has this personal belief, but it is a personal belief. It's not like the Confederate flag.  The name "America" was picked out long before the U.S. ceased to have an isolationist foreign policy.
 * It's not a matter of "everyone does it so it's okay." It's a matter of this being extremely common practice in very high-quality sources that set the standard for the style of English in which we're working. There's a difference between "Well I kindasorta remember my barber saying this" and "There it is in The New York Times, there it is in The Guardian, there it is in so many of the high-quality, professional publications whose work we emulate."
 * I checked for sources on this matter and except for some people at UNH two years ago, declaring the word "American" offensive seems to be pretty rare. Most of the news coverage of the UNH guide struck me as more "Um, what?" than "Let's do this." Do you have any RS on this? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:57, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You're making a basic mistake of thinking here; I'm not sure quite how to describe it, but I see it clearly. You tend to see all this stuff as a matter of... style/opinion/taste/however-one-puts-it; this is a point where I think we're likely to miscommunicate through confusion over assignments of primitive concepts to basic vocabulary; and some things are about deep principles.  This is a neutrality issue.  As I tried to articulate in my addendum just above — having belatedly recognized the potential for misunderstanding in my preceding remark — it's not about trying not to offend someone; the existence of objectors is a symptom, not an underlying cause.  There are people out there who are offended by neutrality, after all, and we're certainly not trying to avoid offending them. I note (though I'm trying, with some dearth of obvious success, not to let this thread become a time sink; right now I need to get to bed since I'm no longer sharp enough to review, and if I were sharp enough to review, as I hope to be when I get up in the morning, I'd want to be reviewing) — I note you said something about 'so many of the high-quality, professional publications whose work we emulate'.  All in all, we don't emulate them.  Wikinews exists in part because of problems in conventional journalism.  We have, I think, real respect for such publications as you allude to, with variations for different publications, different situations, different articles, but we don't defer to them as models of perfection.  The ideals we aspire to are ultimately not to be found in those publications, respect-worthy though they are.  I've found it rather fascinating, since coming to Wikinews, to observe professional news organizations struggling with some of the same problems we do, not always with more success.  --Pi zero (talk) 04:16, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand that you think of this as a neutrality issue. Didn't miss that part.  I just don't happen to agree with you about that.  It's as if someone were offended by the word "black" and insisted that anyone who didn't stick to "African American," "African Canadian," etc. all the time was a racist.  They could argue that "black" suggests negativity due to some traditional phrases such as "black-hearted," etc.  They could argue that talking about "blackness" rather than "full or partial African ancestry" was indicative of systemic unconscious racism and call it a microaggression.  ...and you could make some highly similar arguments in the other direction. "Ugh!  Do Americans think that their country is the only one that has states or is united?!" Of course not.  Just like no one in America thinks we're the only country in the Americas.  It's kind of like how we have a city called "Washington" and a state called "Washington" and a city called "New York" and a state called "New York." If you ask "Which one is the real Washington?" you get "They both are." There's no cognitive dissonance to it.  Whether you look in the dictionary or listen to people speaking, it just doesn't hold water. Similarly, both the written sources and observable use indicate that "American" is a perfectly acceptable word for the country.
 * So what, other than personal preferences, are you basing this on? Do you have anything other than "this strikes me as a neutrality issue"? or "This bothers me"?  Do you have sources or something comparable?
 * If you don't have any right now or saw one a long time ago and don't feel like digging for it, no big deal. Feel free to message me on my talk page at some later date if you wish to continue.  In addition to being useful to our work here, discussions like these are interesting to me and I enjoy them.  Consider it a standing invitation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:33, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I've thought about it and here's how it is: Of the two people likely to serve as reviewer on articles that I write, one of them has expressed a disinclination to use the word "America" for "United States of America." I don't have to agree with your reasons. This is the sort of thing that is going to come up on small teams. If anyone proposes a rule banning the use of the word I'd oppose it. There might be a few contexts in which it's markedly better to say "America" and not "United States," but they're probably rare, so as things stand I have no plans to contest it when you change "America" to "United States." They're both correct. That being said, this is also how it is: If someone writes "Mark is from America," the reader will think we mean "Mark is from the United States of America," so I would object to using the word "America" in that way unless that's what we actually mean. "The Americas" is also correct and far more likely to be understood as intended. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:46, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I have this uncomfortable suspicion you haven't fully grokked news neutrality, as if it just hasn't quite clicked for you; as if the different cases haven't become facets of a coherent underlying whole. I suspect you have something of a preference for what I would call stylistic rules; behavioral customs that say what to do but not why, and may be mixed and matched because they don't flow from deeper principles; part of that may be bad habits picked up on Wikipedia, which suffers from a chronic case of red tape; part of it may be a natural inclination of mind (some minds simply lean more in that direction than others).  But wherever it comes from, you seem strongly repelled by the prospect you could be missing something here, to the point where you're willing to be believe instead some things about me that I hope you haven't entirely thought through. I was thinking, when I had a chance, I'd point out why this use of America is fundamentally different from the use of black as a racial term in the US.  Since at least one of your last two articles has gone stale on the queue waiting for review, the prospect got rather more distant, and rather less attractive.  Without getting too far into it, then, evident core differences are that (1) black doesn't have an unambiguous referent, (2) black doesn't have a technically correct and unintended alterative meaning referring to a larger group of people containing the intended group, and (3) black doesn't have an unambiguously correct alternative term.  (Alternatives generally refer to smaller and better-defined groups.) The simple behavioral principle, bereft of underlying principle, is, don't use these terms in Wikinews's own voice:  America(n) to mean US; pro-life; pro-choice; terrorist/terrorism; -phobia in a cultural/political context, such as homophobia or Islamophobia.  Since I'm reminded, one should also be very wary black/white as racial terms, since they not only tend to promote discrimination in the most literal sense of the term, but they don't really have clear objective meaning.  (Remember that ruckus over  being 1/32 Cherokee, where it wasn't clear if the objectors were outraged that she might be lying or outraged that she might be telling the truth?)  --Pi zero (talk) 20:08, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Review of revision 4286565 [Not ready]
Fixed the headline and added some. For attribution, I did find some information, but there were several facts that I found in several sources (CBS, BBC, Reuters) that did not say where they got them. At which point may we at Wikinews refer to information as coming from the news sources even if they don't say where they got it? Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:39, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

 * When the ultimate origin is unknown, depending on one's judgement of controversy/uncertainty/whatever, one might
 * present a fact as objectively true (but of course in this case the points I suggested attributing were things that triggered my spider sense).
 * introduce some such verbiage as "reportedly", "local media reports", or the like (the previous item shades into this at its far end).
 * name the particular source(s) that reported it.
 * I don't recall seeing an explicit discussion of the finer points of how circumstances favor various approaches to this. --Pi zero (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2017 (UTC)


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