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The Song Remains the Same (film)

The Song Remains the Same is a 1976 concert film featuring the English rock band Led Zeppelin. The filming took place during the summer of 1973, during three nights of concerts at Madison Square Garden in New York City, with additional footage shot at Shepperton Studios. The film premiered three years later on 20 October 1976 at Cinema I in New York, on 21 October 1976 at Fox Wilshire in Beverly Hills, and at Warner West End Cinema in London two weeks later. It was accompanied by a soundtrack album of the same name. The DVD of the film was released on 31 December 1999.

Promotional materials stated that the film was "the band's special way of giving their millions of friends what they had been clamouring for – a personal and private tour of Led Zeppelin. For the first time the world has a front row seat on Led Zeppelin."

A reissue of the film, including previously unreleased footage as a bonus, was released on DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray Disc on 20 November 2007, by Warner Home Video.

Background
Since late 1969, Led Zeppelin had been planning on filming one of their live performances for a projected movie documentary of the band. The group's manager, Peter Grant, believed that they would be better served by the big screen than by television, because he regarded the sound quality of the latter as unsatisfactory. In 1970, Grant arranged for the January 9 Royal Albert Hall performance to be filmed by In Concert and Top of the Pops producer and director Stanley Dorfman, and Peter Whitehead, for a proposed hour-long special for TV distribution, which was reported by Record Mirror in late January had been sold to American TV. However the band supplied a pulse feed off their mixing desk for the editing purposes but were not sufficiently happy with their performance to release the full soundtrack for use in the film. It was agreed with Dorfman that the concert would form part of a larger documentary project including the band's performance at the Bath Festival on June 28, which was filmed by Whitehead. However, Whitehead filmed the entire Zeppelin set in Bath at the incorrect exposure and it was unusable, so the project was shelved." The Royal Albert Hall footage was later remastered and featured on the 2003 release Led Zeppelin DVD.

On the morning of 20 July 1973, during the band's concert tour of the US, Peter Grant made contact with American-born director Joe Massot. Massot was already known to Grant as he and his wife had moved into a house in Berkshire in 1970, where they made friends with their neighbours, Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page and his girlfriend Charlotte Martin. Grant had previously turned down offers by Massot to make a film of the band, but with the huge success of the band's current tour, Grant changed his mind and offered him the job of director. As Grant recalled:

"It all started in the Sheraton Hotel, Boston. We'd talked about a film for years and Jimmy had known Joe Massot was interested – so we called them and over they came. It was all very quickly arranged."

Massot hurriedly assembled a crew in time for Led Zeppelin's last leg of the tour starting on 23 July 1973, in Baltimore. He subsequently filmed the group's three concert performances at Madison Square Garden on the nights of 27, 28, and 29 July 1973. The film was entirely financed by the band and shot on 35mm with a 24-track quadraphonic sound recording.

Original filming
The plans to film the shows at Madison Square Garden were threatened when the local trades union tried to block the British film crew from working. After the band's attorneys negotiated with the union, the crew was allowed to film the concerts.

The footage of the band arriving at the airport in their private jet airliner, The Starship, and travelling in the motorcade to the concert was filmed in Pittsburgh, before their show at Three Rivers Stadium on 24 July 1973.

For the band's three New York performances, two band members, Robert Plant and John Bonham, wore the same clothes to facilitate seamless editing of the film, but John Paul Jones and Jimmy Page wore different sets of attire on some of the nights, which created continuity problems. Page is seen wearing a different dragon suit in "Rock and Roll" and the "Celebration Day" remaster which was not an editing error; Page wore a new outfit for those shows which came with a heavy jacket, and he took it off after three songs. In an interview from 1997, Jones said that the reason he did not wear the same stage clothes was that he asked the crew if they would be filming on those nights and was told no. "I'd think 'not to worry, I'll save the shirt I wore the previous night for the next filming'. Then what would happen is that I'd get onstage and see the cameras ready to roll." Grant stated "It turned out to be traumatic to say the least. They filmed three nights at the Garden and never got one complete take of 'Whole Lotta Love'."

As Led Zeppelin's popularity soared throughout the 1970s, Peter Grant became increasingly notorious for being brutally protective of his band and their finances; The Song Remains the Same captures one such exchange between him and a concert promoter. When Warner Bros. approved the film they did so with the proviso that expletives would be 'bleeped' out. Clifton took the optical print and removed the words, and the film was given an appropriate rating. However, on every other print, the words were retained and were fully audible.

In the scene where Peter Grant is driven to the police station to be questioned about the theft from the safe deposit box at the Drake Hotel, he has his arm outside the police car. According to an interview conducted in 1989, he explained the reason he was not handcuffed was that the policeman driving the car used to be a drummer in a semi-professional band which had supported the Yardbirds on one of its US college tours in the late-1960s. Grant had at the time been manager of the Yardbirds. The money stolen from the safe deposit box at the Drake Hotel was never recovered, and while no one has ever been charged, it is alleged that a staff member of the hotel quit their job and fled to Jamaica soon after the theft. Scenes of young fans attempting to buy tickets, an unruly fan being ejected by security, and Grant berating the promoter for receiving kickbacks were all shot at the Baltimore Civic Center on 23 July 1973. Grant purportedly recommended the "Dazed and Confused" sequence wherein the camera zooms into Page's eyes and cuts to the scene. Some unused backstage shots filmed at Baltimore and at Pittsburgh later found their way into the promotional video for "Travelling Riverside Blues", released in 1990.

Subsequent filming and release
Dissatisfied with the progress of the film, Grant had Massot removed from the project and Australian director Peter Clifton was hired in his place in early 1974. Massot was offered a few thousand pounds in compensation. Peter Grant later sent someone to Massot's house to collect the film. However, Massot had hidden the film elsewhere and so instead an expensive editing machine owned by Massot was taken as collateral. Massot served a writ, leading to a period of stalemate which was finally broken when Grant and Led Zeppelin's lawyer Steve Weiss agreed to pay Massot the money he was owed, after which he delivered the film to the band. Massot was not invited to attend the premiere of the film at New York but he attended anyway, buying a ticket from a scalper outside the theatre.

Clifton, realising that there were crucial holes in the concert footage, suggested that the entire show be recreated at Shepperton Studios in August 1974, on a mock-up of the Madison Square Garden stage. Close-ups and distance footage of the band members could then be slipped into the live sequences, which made up the bulk of the concert footage seen in the film. When it was agreed that the band would meet at Shepperton Studios for filming, Jones had recently had his hair cut short, so he had to wear a wig.

In the May 2008 issue of Uncut, Page recalled the events surrounding the shooting of additional footage at Shepperton Studios: "I'm sort of miming at Shepperton to what I'd played at Madison Square Garden, but of course, although I've got a rough approximation of what I was playing from night to night, it's not exact. So the film that came out in the '70s is a bit warts-and-all."

A plan to shoot additional footage on the band's Autumn 1975 U.S. tour was abandoned due to Plant's car crash in Rhodes, Greece.

In 1976 a midnight screening of the film was organised by Atlantic Records before its release, at which label president Ahmet Ertegun reportedly fell asleep.

The Song Remains the Same was finally completed by early 1976, 18 months behind schedule and over-budget. Peter Grant later quipped "It was the most expensive home movie ever made". It grossed $200,000 in its first week at the box office.

Critical reaction and popularity
For its New York premiere, Cinema I was equipped with a quadrophonic sound system hired from Showco in Dallas. For the West Coast premieres, no such audio boosting was employed. These premieres, along with the London premiere, were attended by the members of the band.

The film performed well at the box office, grossing an estimated $10 million by 1977. Despite this, the film was reviewed negatively by critics for its perceived amateurish production and self-indulgent content, with the fantasy sequences in particular coming in for some of the harshest criticism. The film was particularly unsuccessful in the UK, where the band had not performed live for over two years as a result of being in tax exile. The band were thus unable to promote themselves at home, leaving them out of the public spotlight.

However, amongst fans the film has retained its popularity. Until the release of Led Zeppelin DVD in 2003, The Song Remains the Same was the only official live visual document that was accessible to followers of the band. It became a cult favourite at late-night movie houses, and its subsequent release on video and then DVD has ensured a growing base of fans.

Some members of the band regard the performances filmed at Madison Square Garden as merely average for the time, coming as they did at the end of a long and exhausting tour, but nonetheless representative of the generally high standard of the band's live performances during this era. In an interview he gave with New Musical Express in November 1976, Page stated: "The Song Remains The Same is not a great film, but there's no point in making excuses. It's just a reasonably honest statement of where we were at that particular time. It's very difficult for me to watch it now, but I'd like to see it in a year's time just to see how it stands up."

Page made good on his promise. When reviewing material for Led Zeppelin DVD in 2003, he decided to include footage from this same series of concerts.

However, other members of the band were less charitable, with Jones later admitting that the film was "a massive compromise" and Plant denouncing it as "a load of bollocks."

For all of its technical faults, many today view the film as an interesting historical document that captured the band at a particular point in time when its popularity was at around its peak, and, on a more general level, as an accurate representation of the excesses of the music and show-business industries in the 1970s. In a review published in Mojo magazine following the film's 2007 reissue, James McNair gave the film four out of five stars and wrote: "The good news is that Jimmy Page and fellow production wunderkind Kevin Shirley have been meticulous as regards quality control. The three-night, July 1973 stint at Madison square garden that fuelled the film's original soundtrack has been plundered afresh ... In truth, 2003's DVD package houses better live performances, but if you want to catch Zeppelin in all their preposterous, 'because we can' glory, The Song Remains ... is the one."

On Rotten Tomatoes, the film has a 75% rating based on twelve reviews.

DVD scene listing

 * 1) Mob Rubout
 * 2) Mob Town Credits
 * 3) Country Life ("Autumn Lake")
 * 4) "Bron-Yr-Aur"
 * 5) "Rock and Roll"
 * 6) "Black Dog"
 * 7) "Since I've Been Loving You"
 * 8) "No Quarter"
 * 9) Who's Responsible?
 * 10) "The Song Remains the Same"
 * 11) "The Rain Song"
 * 12) Fire and Sword
 * 13) Capturing the Castle
 * 14) Not Quite Backstage Pass
 * 15) "Dazed and Confused"
 * 16) Strung Out
 * 17) Magic in the Night
 * 18) Gate Crasher
 * 19) No Comment
 * 20) "Stairway to Heaven"
 * 21) "Moby Dick"
 * 22) Country Squire Bonham
 * 23) "Heartbreaker"
 * 24) Grand Theft
 * 25) "Whole Lotta Love"
 * 26) End Credits (w/ "Stairway to Heaven")

Cast

 * John Bonham
 * Richard Cole
 * Peter Grant
 * Roy Harper
 * John Paul Jones
 * Jimmy Page
 * Robert Plant
 * Colin Rigdon
 * Derek Skilton

Personnel
Led Zeppelin
 * John Bonham – drums, percussion
 * John Paul Jones – bass guitar, keyboards
 * Jimmy Page – guitars, theremin, backing vocals, production, sound editing, mixing
 * Robert Plant – vocals, tambourine

Additional personnel

2007 reissue
On 20 November 2007, Warner Home Video released a new DVD edition of The Song Remains The Same for the first time with all fifteen songs from the original Madison Square Garden concerts. This coincided with the reissue of the accompanying soundtrack to the film, available on CD. The DVD features newly remixed and fully remastered sound, 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS surround sound from original master tracks, and includes more than 40 minutes of added bonus material, including never-before-released performance footage of "Over the Hills and Far Away" and "Celebration Day", plus performances of "Misty Mountain Hop" and "The Ocean", a rare 1976 BBC interview with Robert Plant and Peter Grant, vintage TV footage from the Drake Hotel robbery during the New York concert stand, and a Cameron Crowe radio show. This version was released on standard DVDs as well as Blu-ray and HD DVD.

A Collector's Edition box set including a T-shirt with the original album cover, placards from the New York shows, and several glossy photographs was released as well.

Due to legal complications, the band decided not to change the video portion of the original movie for the rerelease. Instead, sound engineer Kevin Shirley created an entirely new mix of the three 1973 Madison Square Garden concerts so that the audio portion of the film would better match the on-screen visuals. The audio on the new CD release is nearly identical to the soundtrack of the new DVD release. One difference is that the songs included on the CDs that were not featured in the original movie are included as bonus tracks on the DVD.

title: The Song Remains the Same (film)


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Coda (Led Zeppelin album)

Coda is the ninth and final studio album, as well as the first compilation album by English rock band Led Zeppelin. It is a collection of rejected and live tracks from various sessions during the band's twelve-year career. The album was released on 26 November 1982, almost two years after the group had officially disbanded following the death of drummer John Bonham. In 2015, a remastered version of the entire album with two discs of additional material appeared.

Background
The fifth Swan Song Records album for the band, Coda was released to honour contractual commitments to Atlantic Records and also to cover tax demands on previous monies earned. It cleared away nearly all of the leftover tracks from the various studio sessions of the 1960s and 1970s. The album was a collection of eight tracks spanning the length of Zeppelin's twelve-year history. Atlantic counted the release as a studio album, as Swan Song had owed the label a final studio album from the band. According to Martin Popoff, "there's conjecture that Jimmy [Page] called 'We're Gonna Groove' a studio track and 'I Can't Quit You Baby' a rehearsal track because Swan Song owed Atlantic one more studio album specifically."

Guitarist Jimmy Page explained that part of the reasoning for the album's release related to the popularity of unofficial Led Zeppelin recordings which continued to be circulated by fans: "Coda was released, basically, because there was so much bootleg stuff out. We thought, "Well, if there's that much interest, then we may as well put the rest of our studio stuff out". As John Paul Jones recalled: "Basically there wasn't a lot of Zeppelin tracks that didn't go out. We used everything."

The word coda, meaning a passage that ends a musical piece following the main body, was therefore chosen as the title.

Songs
Side one

"We're Gonna Groove" is a BB King cover that opens the album. Most of the track was recorded live at a concert held at the Royal Albert Hall in January, 1970 while Page added new guitar parts to the recording. The unedited version can be heard in the complete recording of the original Royal Albert Hall concert of 9 January 1970. The original album notes incorrectly state that the track was recorded at Morgan Studios in June, 1969. This song was used to open a number of concerts on the band's early 1970 tours and was originally intended to be recorded for inclusion on Led Zeppelin II.

"Poor Tom" is an outtake from Led Zeppelin III, having been recorded at sessions held at Olympic Studios in June, 1970.

"Walter's Walk", a reject from Houses of the Holy, was recorded at sessions during April and May, 1972.

"I Can't Quit You Baby" is taken from the same January, 1970 concert as "We're Gonna Groove" but was listed as a taped rehearsal in the original liner notes. The recording was edited to remove the crowd noise as well as the beginning and ending of the song. The crowd sounds were muted on the multi-track mixdown, as was done with "We're Gonna Groove".

Side two

Side two contains three outtakes from the band's previous album In Through the Out Door, plus a Bonham drum solo.

The uptempo "Ozone Baby" and the rock 'n' roll styled "Darlene" were recorded at that album's sessions at Polar Studios, Stockholm in November, 1978.

"Bonzo's Montreux" was recorded at Mountain Studios, Montreux, Switzerland in September, 1976. The track was conceived as a showcase for Bonham's drumming, which Page added various electronic effects, including a harmonizer.

"Wearing and Tearing" was recorded at Polar in November, 1978. It was written as a reaction to punk, and to show that Led Zeppelin could compete with new bands. The track was scheduled to be issued as a promotional single for the audience at the 1979 Knebworth Festival, headlined by Led Zeppelin, but the record was cancelled at the last minute. The song was first performed live at the 1990 Silver Clef Awards Festival at Knebworth by Plant's band with Page guesting.

Other tracks

The 1993 compact disc edition has four additional tracks from the box sets, Led Zeppelin Boxed Set (1990) and Led Zeppelin Boxed Set 2 (1993), the previously unreleased "Travelling Riverside Blues", "White Summer/Black Mountain Side" and the "Immigrant Song" b-side "Hey, Hey, What Can I Do" from the former and the previously unreleased "Baby Come On Home" from the latter.

In 2015, a remastered version of the entire album with two discs of additional material appeared.

Cover
The album cover was designed by Hipgnosis, the fifth album cover the design group designed for Led Zeppelin. It was also the last album cover Hipgnosis designed before disbanding in 1983. The main four letters CODA are from an alphabet typeface design called "Neon Slim" designed by Bernard Allum in 1978.

Critical reception
Reviewing for Rolling Stone in 1983, Kurt Loder hailed Coda as "a resounding farewell" and a "marvel of compression, deftly tracing the Zeppelin decade with eight powerful, previously unreleased tracks, and no unnecessary elaboration". Robert Christgau wrote in his "Consumer Guide" column for The Village Voice:

"They really were pretty great, and these eight outtakes—three from their elephantine blues phase, three from their unintentional swan song—aren't where to start discovering why. But despite the calculated clumsiness of the beginnings and the incomplete orchestrations of the end, everything here but the John Bonham Drum Orchestra would convince a disinterested party—a Martian, say. Jimmy Page provides a protean solo on "I Can't Quit You Baby" and jumbo riffs throughout."

According to Julian Marszalek of The Quietus, however, "Coda has always been regarded as the band's weakest release. Made up of eight tracks that spanned Led Zeppelin's lifetime, it refused to flow as an album. Devoid of a coherent narrative, it felt tossed together to make up for contractual obligations." In a retrospective review for AllMusic, Stephen Thomas Erlewine said while it did not include all of the band's notable non-album recordings, it offered "a good snapshot of much of what made Led Zeppelin a great band" and featured mostly "hard-charging rock & roll", including "Ozone Baby", "Darlene", and "Wearing and Tearing": "rockers that alternately cut loose, groove, and menace".

2015 reissue
A remastered version of Coda, along with Presence and In Through the Out Door, was reissued on 31 July 2015. The reissue comes in six formats: a standard CD edition, a deluxe three-CD edition, a standard LP version, a deluxe three-LP version, a super deluxe three-CD plus three-LP version with a hardback book, and as high resolution 24-bit/96k digital downloads. The deluxe and super deluxe editions feature bonus material containing alternative takes and previously unreleased songs, "If It Keeps On Raining", "Sugar Mama", "Four Hands", "St. Tristan's Sword", and "Desire". The reissue was released with an altered colour version of the original album's artwork as its bonus disc's cover.

The reissue was met with generally positive reviews. At Metacritic, which assigns a normalised rating out of 100 to reviews from mainstream publications, the album received an average score of 78, based on 8 reviews. In Rolling Stone, David Fricke said it is "the unlikely closing triumph in Page's series of deluxe Zeppelin reissues: a dynamic pocket history in rarities, across three discs with 15 bonus tracks, of his band's epic-blues achievement". Pitchfork journalist Mark Richardson was less impressed by the bonus disc, believing "there is nothing particularly noteworthy about the 'Bombay Orchestra' tracks".

Original release
All tracks written by Jimmy Page and Robert Plant, except where noted. All tracks produced by Jimmy Page, except for "Travelling Riverside Blues", produced by John Walters, and "White Summer"/"Black Mountain Side" produced by Jeff Griffin.

 * The CD edition with bonus tracks was also included in the career-spanning boxed set Complete Studio Recordings (disc ten), and the subsequent Led Zeppelin Definitive Collection (disc twelve).

Deluxe edition bonus discs
The CD edition mistakenly lists the running time of "Bring It On Home" (rough mix) as 4:19, which matches the duration of the finished version on Led Zeppelin II, not the intended time for the rough mix.

Personnel
Led Zeppelin

 * John Bonham – drums, percussion
 * John Paul Jones – bass guitar, piano, keyboards
 * Jimmy Page – acoustic and electric guitars, electronic treatments, production
 * Robert Plant – lead vocals, harmonica

Production

 * Assorted Images – design
 * Barry Diament – mastering (original 1988 CD release)
 * Stuart Epps – engineering
 * Peter Grant – executive production
 * Jeff Griffin – producer on "White Summer/Black Mountain Side"
 * Hipgnosis – design
 * Andy Johns – engineering
 * Eddie Kramer – engineering
 * Vic Maile – engineering
 * George Marino – remastering (1994 edition)
 * Leif Mases – engineering
 * John Timperley – engineering
 * John Walters – producer on "Travelling Riverside Blues"

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Coda (Led Zeppelin album)


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Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother

The quote from the soldier...
the quote from the soldier she treated should be removed from this page. The page cannot be modified for avoiding vandalism, yet the language used by the soldier she treated is injurious itself. Some magazines or journals may use this language, but I see no point in using it on Wikipedia (I wanted to remove that part, but unfortunately there's the lock on it to avoid "vandalism"). Surely the soldier used the same horrific words to give a different meaning and to give a better meaning and praise the queen, but even just such injurious and violent language should not be allowed here especially when not relevant and not really explaining historical facts (which still I would avoid explaining if so violent). Hopefully someone decides to remove the quote of the soldier she treated.

This is the part that uses offensive, violent and graphicly violent language to "praise"(???) the queen which I hope can be removed from the entire page: "One of the soldiers she treated wrote in her autograph book that she was to be "Hung, drawn, & quartered ... Hung in diamonds, drawn in a coach and four, and quartered in the best house in the land."[16]". 5.168.135.139 (talk) 08:52, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

 * You are completely misreading the tone of what the soldier wrote. I don't know your cultural background but to British and North American ears, the soldier's quote is almost comically sweet and extravagant. There's nothing remotely offensive in the context of the soldier's culture or Elizabeth's. Pascalulu88 (talk) 23:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2023
Add "consort" after "Queen" in the opening line.

[Reasoning: She was Queen by right of her husband, King George VI. She was not "Queen regnant," as was her daughter, Elizabeth II.] 2600:1008:B164:12EF:EA1B:11FD:93F2:1A07 (talk) 01:27, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The word "Queen" alone does not imply that she was a queen regnant. A queen can be queen regnant or queen consort but the title is "The Queen". The opening sentence makes it clear that she is the latter by stating that she was Queen of the UK as the wife of George VI. Keivan.f  Talk 19:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image (3)
Given the number of actual photographs that exist of the subject, I don't know why we are using a painted portrait of her as the main infobox image (it is simply not done for any other monarchs or consorts of whom photos do exist). I have selected a few suitable candidates from the Commons which I am going to list below. Everyone is welcome to take a look at them and examine license details, etc.; or even add to the list. Depending on the level of participation, I might turn this into an RfC to get a broader consensus. Keivan.f Talk 19:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I prefer the painted portrait. It's in colour and it's realistic, so I see no advantage in using a black and white or false colour photograph. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We don't have a policy that dictates the use of colour photographs. Personally, I believe no matter how realistic the painted portrait looks, it's still a painting and is not as accurate as a photograph when it comes to showing facial features. Let's see what others might think. Keivan.f  Talk 13:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Since she was queen consort between 1936 and 1952, and her and her husband excelled at inspiring the citizens throughout World War II, perhaps an image of her during those years may be appropriate as a lead image. Will be interested in reading comments from others on this topic. Then again, the present image is very noble and well done, and portrays her during her many years of being honored by her country. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think an image during her time as consort would be more appropriate as lead image. However the current lead image is clearer than the alternatives provided so would lean towards keeping what we already have. Mn1548 (talk) 18:23, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

How long ...
... may I ask, are we going to keep calling her "The Queen Mother", as if she was one still, as if that were part of her name, and as if there have never been others? Looks ridiculous. Respectful? Just askin'. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is "Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother", so until such time as she is displaced in sources by a different Queen Mother. But in actuality she will always be a "Queen Mother" by usage even though she is no longer the mother of a reigning sovereign. Just sayin'. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:14, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Unclear Citations
There are numerous citations to Shawcross's book in the article, but none of them state whether they are citing the 2009 book or 2012 book. A featured article nowadays should not be of this level of quality (I do not have access to the books so I cannot fix them by myself). ネイ (talk) 03:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't mind if you remove the Further reading section. DrKay (talk) 05:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is fine for me as long as it is clear which book the citation comes from. Since the 2012 book is moved to Further Reading section, this implies that all citations are citing the 2009 book. Thank you. ネイ (talk) 09:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother


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Winchester College

Winchester College is an English public school (a long-established fee-charging boarding school for pupils aged 13–18) with some provision for day attendees, in Winchester, Hampshire, England. It was founded by William of Wykeham in 1382 as a feeder school for New College, Oxford, and has existed in its present location ever since. It is the oldest of the nine schools considered by the Clarendon Commission. The school has begun a transition to become co-educational, and has accepted male and female day pupils from September 2022, having previously been a boys' boarding school for over 600 years.

The school was founded to provide an education for 70 scholars. Gradually numbers rose, a choir of 16 "quiristers" being added alongside paying pupils known as "commoners". Numbers expanded greatly in the 1860s with the addition of ten boarding houses. The scholars continue to live in the school's medieval buildings, which consist of two courtyards, a chapel, and a cloisters. A Wren-style classroom building named "School" was added in the 17th century. An art school ("museum"), science school, and music school were added at the turn of the 20th century. A war cloister was built as a memorial in 1924.

The school has maintained traditions including its mascot, the Trusty Servant; a set of "notions" forming a sort of private language; and a school song, Domum. Its headmasters have included the bishops William Waynflete in the 15th century and George Ridding in the 19th century. Former pupils are known as Old Wykehamists.

Foundation and early years

Winchester College was founded in 1382 by William of Wykeham, Bishop of Winchester and Chancellor to both Edward III and Richard II, in part because of the lack of trained priests following the Black Death. Winchester was to act as a feeder school to New College, also founded by Wykeham. According to its 1382 charter and final statutes (1400), the school is called in Latin Collegium Sanctae Mariae prope Wintoniam ("St Mary's College, near Winchester"), or Collegium Beatae Mariae Wintoniensis prope Winton ("The College of the Blessed Mary of Winchester, near Winchester"). The first 70 "poor scholars" entered the school in 1394. In the early 15th century the specific requirement was that scholars come from families where the income was less than five marks sterling (£3 6s 8d) per annum; in comparison, the contemporary reasonable living for a yeoman was £5 per annum.

Other innovations at Winchester included enforcing discipline through the pupils themselves, using prefects. Discipline was in any case meant to be less harsh than was common in medieval schools, at least as the statutes read. Winchester was also unusual in giving education to boys aged 12-18, as universities would accept students within this age range. These features, including the double foundation, formed the model for Eton College and King's College, Cambridge, some 50 years later. Eton and Winchester formed a close partnership at that time. At first only a small number of pupils other than scholars were admitted; by the 15th century the school had around 100 pupils in total, nominally the 70 scholars, 16 choirboys known as "quiristers", and the rest "commoners". Demand for places for commoners was high, and though at first restricted, numbers gradually rose.

Early modern period
As the college was a religious as well as educational establishment, it was threatened with closure during Henry VIII's reign. A statute to this effect was drawn up in 1545, which was only halted by his death. Edward VI swiftly reversed direction. Edward made provision for worship and Bible readings to be made in English rather than Latin. In the early modern period, under Henry, Edward, Elizabeth and James, royal visits were accompanied by presentations of Latin and a small amount of Greek occasional poetry, composed by the pupils. Elizabeth also granted an exemption to allow Winchester, Eton and elsewhere to conduct their religious services in Latin, to help pupils to improve their skills in the language.

Victorian era to present
From the 1860s, ten boarding houses, each for up to sixty pupils, were added, greatly increasing the school's capacity. By 2020, the number of pupils had risen to 690. From 2022, the school has accepted day pupils in the Sixth Form, including girls.

Buildings
The college consists of an assemblage of buildings from medieval times to the present day. There are 94 listed buildings, set in grounds of some 250 acres, of which 100 acres are water meadows, 52 acres are playing fields, and 11 acres are formal gardens; the area includes St Catherine's Hill. The medieval buildings, representing most of the original foundation from the school's opening in 1394, include Outer Gate and Outer Court, Chamber Court, the chapel, and the Cloisters. These are built in flint with limestone facings and slate roofs. The chapel retains its original wooden fan-vaulted ceiling, designed by Hugh Herland, carpenter to Richard II. Little of the original medieval glass, designed by Thomas Glazier, survives, as it was scattered in the 1820s, but some is now housed in Thurburn's Chantry, at the back of the chapel, and in Fromond's Chantry, inside the Cloisters. The "School" building was constructed in 1683–1687 in Wren style, with a statue of the founder above the door by C. G. Cibber. The school was greatly extended in the 19th century with the addition of boarding houses for "commoners", paying pupils, as opposed to the scholars who continued to live in the medieval College. At the turn of the 20th century, a Music School, "Museum" (art school), and Science School, all architect-designed, were added. A hall big enough for the enlarged school, New Hall, was opened in 1961, accommodating the oak panelling removed from the Chapel in the 1874 refurbishment. In 1924, a War Cloister was constructed; it now serves as a memorial of the Wykehamists killed in the two World Wars. Visitors may tour areas such as Chamber Court, the Chapel, College Hall, the Cloisters, School and Museum, for a fee.

College
The seventy scholars live in the original buildings, known as "College". The scholars are known as "Collegemen", and the schoolmaster in charge of them is called the Master in College. Collegemen wear black gowns, following the founding traditions of the school. Collegemen enjoy certain privileges compared to the Commoners, such as having open fires and being allowed to walk across Meads, the walled sports field outside School.

Boarding houses
Every pupil at Winchester, apart from the Scholars, lives in a boarding house, chosen or allocated when applying to Winchester. It is here that he studies, eats and sleeps. Each house is presided over by a housemaster (who takes on the role in addition to teaching duties), assisted by house tutors. Houses compete against each other in school sports. Each house has an official name, usually based on the family name of the first housemaster, which is used mainly as a postal address. Each house also has an informal name, usually based on the name or nickname of an early housemaster. Each house also has a letter, in the order of their founding, to act as an abbreviation, especially on laundry tags. A member of a house is described by the informal name of the house with "-ite" suffixed, as "a Furleyite", "a Toyeite", "a Cookite" and so on. College does not have an informal name, although the abbreviation Coll is sometimes used; "X" (meaning, not one of the boarding houses) was originally used only on laundry tags.

Admission
Winchester is considered one of the most prestigious schools in the world. It has its own entrance examination, and does not use Common Entrance like other major public schools. Those wishing to enter a Commoner House make their arrangements with the relevant housemaster some two years before sitting the exam, usually sitting a test set by the housemaster and an interview. Those applying to College do not take the normal entrance examination but instead sit a separate, harder, exam called "Election": successful candidates may obtain, according to their performance, a scholarship, an exhibition or a Headmaster's nomination to join a Commoner House. Admission to College was historically coupled to remission of fees, but this has ceased; instead, means-tested bursaries ranging from 5% to 100% of the school fee are provided, according to need. From 2022, Winchester admitted girls into the 6th form (year 12) as day pupils, with girls boarding from 2024. For 2023/24, the fee is £49,152 per annum (£16,384 per term) for boarding pupils and £36,369 per annum (£12,123 per term) for day pupils.

Structure
In addition to normal lessons, all boys throughout the school are required to attend a class called Division (known as "Div") which explores parts of history, literature, and politics that do not lead to external examinations; its purpose is to ensure a broad education.

From year 9, pupils study for at least nine GCSE and IGCSEs. Every pupil studies English, mathematics, Latin, French or German, and at least two sciences at this level, as well as "Div". Pupils then study three A-levels, "Div", and an Extended Project Qualification.

Results
Winchester College is particularly known for its academic rigour.

In 2023 at A-Level, 77.9% of student results were graded A*-A while 88.1% of GCSE results were graded 9-7. 80.3% of GCSEs were graded 8 or 9 (A* equivalent), and 91.2% of grades achieved were graded 7, 8 or 9 (A*/A equivalent). Between 2010 and 2018, an average of 33% of leavers obtained places at Oxford or Cambridge.

Sport

Winchester College has its own game, Winchester College football (also known as "Win: Co: Fo:" or "Winkies"), played only at Winchester. It is played in the spring term with a competition between the school's houses; it is largely managed by the boys.

A distinctive Winchester version of fives resembles Rugby fives but with a buttress on the court. The buttress enables a skilful player to cause the ball to ricochet in an unexpected direction.

The school has an active rowing club called the Winchester College Boat Club which is based on the River Itchen. The club is affiliated to British Rowing (boat code WIN) and was twice winner of the Princess Elizabeth Challenge Cup (in 1949 and 1954) at the Henley Royal Regatta.

Rivalry — particularly sporting — between Winchester and Eton has existed for centuries.

Combined Cadet Force
Pupils of the school in their second year are currently required to serve in the college's Combined Cadet Force.

The organisation was founded in 1860 as "The Winchester College Rifle Volunteer Corps" by various boys in their top year as a result of the perceived threat of Napoleon III after the Orsini plot, and remained entirely autonomous until it was taken over by the Second Master in 1868. It was enrolled as a Cadet Corps in the 1st Hants Volunteer Battalion. In 1908, the Officer Training Corps was established, and by 1914, through the request of the War Office that Senior Cadets be given appropriate training for the war effort, almost every student became involved in the Corps, though it was never explicitly compulsory. In the Second World War, it was renamed as "The Junior Training Corps", though its function was still to prepare boys for Officer responsibilities. Montgomery remarked on inspecting the Corps in 1946 that there was "latent leadership in all ranks". In 1948, the "Junior Training Corps" became known as the "Combined Cadet Force" (CCF) which incorporated RAF and RN sections. In 1963, "Alternative Service Activities" were introduced for boys who did not want to join the CCF. Pupils were made eligible to opt out of the CCF at the end of their second year after starting at the beginning of the year: this is still the school's policy.

Music
Winchester offers extensive opportunities for musical development, with two-thirds of pupils playing at least one instrument. The school has a music school and numerous practice rooms, and a variety of cchoirs, ensembles, and orchestras. The chapel choir has existed since the school's foundation. Music and choral scholarships fund free tuition for candidates proficient in multiple instruments at grade 6 level or above.

The Trusty Servant: the school mascot

The Trusty Servant is an emblematic figure in a painting at Winchester College, that serves as the school's unofficial mascot and the name of its alumni magazine. A painting of The Trusty Servant and accompanying verses both devised by the poet John Hoskins in 1579 hangs outside the college kitchen. The current version was painted by William Cave the Younger in 1809. The painting depicts a mythical creature with the body of a man, the head of a pig, with its snout closed with a padlock, the ears of an ass, the feet of a stag, and tools in his left hand. The verses are on the virtues that pupils of the college were supposed to have. The college arms are shown in the background of the painting.

Notions: the school language
A notion is a specialised term peculiar to Winchester College. The word notion is also used to describe traditions unique to the school. An example of a notion is "toytime", meaning homework, from the notion "toys", a wooden cubicle that serves as a pupil's workspace in a communal room, known as "mugging hall" in Commoner Houses or a "chamber" in College.

Manners makyth man: the school motto

Since the foundation, Winchester College has had numerous words and phrases directly associated with it, including its motto, its graces, and a prayer. A grace is read before and after every lunch and formal meal in College Hall. Two separate graces are traditionally sung during Election, the scholarship process.

Manners makyth man – Motto of Winchester College, New College, Oxford, and the founder of the two colleges, William of Wykeham

The Latin grace before meals in College goes:

The Latin grace after meals in College goes:

Domum: the school song

The school song is entitled "Domum" and is sung at the end of the summer term, known as Cloister Time. The origin of the song is unknown; it was described as "an old tradition" in the 1773 History and Antiquities of Winchester. The traditional tune was composed by John Reading. A new tune, by Malcolm Archer, was officially adopted by the school in about 2007.

According to legend, the text was written in the 17th century by a pupil who was confined for misconduct during the Whitsun holidays. (In one account, he was tied to a pillar.) It is said that he carved the words on the bark of a tree, which was thereafter called "Domum Tree", and cast himself into Logie (the river running through the school grounds). There is still a "Domum Cottage" in that area. The author of the text apparently wrongly treated domum as a neuter noun.

A "Domum Dinner" is held at the end of the summer term for leavers. It was formerly restricted to those former scholars of Winchester who were also scholars of New College, and distinguished guests. Until the reforms of the 19th century, there were three successive Election Dinners held during Election Week, culminating in a Domum Ball. Originally these festivities occurred around Whitsun, as suggested by references in the song to early summer such as "See the year, the meadow, smiling" and "Now the swallow seeks her dwelling".

Influence
Winchester's approach to education was influential on later schools. It was unusual in the medieval period in giving education to boys aged 12–18, as universities would accept students within this age range. The age range, the double foundation with New College, Oxford,, and the approach to discipline formed the model for Eton College and King's College, Cambridge, some 50 years later.

Pupils of the school have appeared in many works of fiction: the school itself rather less often. The figure of Sir Humphrey Appleby in the TV series Yes Minister is among the best-known Old Wykehamists in fiction.

As with other prominent public schools, a locomotive of the Southern Railway V Class was named after Winchester College. The second of the class, No. 901 Winchester was constructed by Southern at the nearby Eastleigh Works; it entered service in 1930.

Headmasters
The headmasters of Winchester College from the 14th century onwards are:

• 1373 Richard Herton

• 1388 John Melton

• 1394 Thomas Romsey

• 1407 John Pole

• 1414 Thomas Romsey

• 1418 Richard Darcy

• 1424 Thomas Alwyn

• 1430 William Waynflete

• 1441 Thomas Alwyn

• 1444 William Yve

• 1454 John Barnard

• 1459 John Grene

• 1465 Clement Smyth

• 1467 Richard Dene

• 1484 John Rede

• 1490 Robert Festham

• 1495 William Horman

• 1501 John Farlyngton

• 1507 Edward More

• 1515 Thomas Erlisman

• 1525 John Twychener

• 1531 Richard Twychener

• 1535 John White

• 1542 Thomas Bayly

• 1547 William Everard

• 1553 Thomas Hyde

• 1561 Christopher Johnson

• 1572 Thomas Bilson

• 1579 Hugh Lloyd

• 1588 John Harmar

• 1596 Benjamin Heydon

• 1602 Nicholas Love

• 1613 Hugh Robinson

• 1627 Edward Stanley

• 1642 John Pottinger

• 1653 William Burt

• 1658 Henry Beeston

• 1679 William Harris

• 1700 Thomas Cheyney

• 1724 John Burton

• 1766 Joseph Warton

• 1793 William Stanley Goddard

• 1810 Henry Dison Gabell

• 1824 David Williams

• 1836 George Moberly

• 1867 George Ridding

• 1884 William Andrewes Fearon

• 1901 Hubert Murray Burge

• 1911 Montague John Rendall

• 1924 Alwyn Terrell Petre Williams

• 1934 Spencer Leeson

• 1946 Walter Fraser Oakeshott

• 1954 Henry Desmond Pritchard Lee

• 1968 John Leonard Thorn

• 1985 James Paley Sabben-Clare

• 2000 Nicholas Tate

• 2003 Thomas Richard Cookson

• 2005 Ralph Douglas Townsend

• 2016 Timothy Roderick Hands

• 2023 Elizabeth Stone

Former pupils
Current pupils of Winchester College are known as Wykehamists, in memory of the school's founder, William of Wykeham; former pupils are known as Old Wykehamists, or amongst themselves as Old Woks. Fictional Old Wykehamists appear in over 50 novels, starting with Tobias Smollett's eponymous Peregrine Pickle in 1751.

Controversy
In 1872, under the headmaster George Ridding, "tunding", beatings given by a prefect (a senior pupil), using a ground-ash across the shoulders, were still permitted. The matter became a national scandal, known as "the Tunding Row", when "an overzealous Senior Commoner Prefect" beat a pupil for refusing to attend a notions test. Ridding made matters worse by trying to defend the action. He eventually limited the prefects' power to beat, and forbade notions tests as a "disgraceful innovation".

In the 1970s and 80s, the college allowed a Christian Forum to operate on college grounds which was later described as "cult-like", and which gave access to pupils to a man who reportedly carried out sadomasochistic abuse on several of them. The alleged perpetrator, John Smyth, was a leader of the evangelical Christian Iwerne camps (known as "Bash camps" after the nickname of their founder, E. J. H. Nash) where abuse was also reported to have taken place. The college and the Iwerne Trust became aware of these allegations in 1982, but neither reported them to the police. Smyth was warned off and moved to Zimbabwe and then South Africa where abuse continued. An independent review into the abuse, commissioned by the college, was published in January 2022, alongside reviews by the Church of England and the Titus Trust (which succeeded the Iwerne Trust).

In 2005, Winchester College was one of fifty of the country's leading independent schools found guilty of running an unlawful price-fixing cartel by the Office of Fair Trading. As a penalty, the schools paid for a trust fund to benefit the affected pupils. Winchester College, like Eton, received a fifty per cent reduction in its penalty in return for its full cooperation.

In 2017 Winchester College suspended its Head of Art History for providing students with information about questions on an upcoming public exam. The headmaster of Winchester confirmed that the school had treated the matter "very seriously" and that no boy was responsible for the "exam irregularity". The information was widely distributed, resulting in their papers being disallowed.

title: Winchester College


text:
Led Zeppelin Remasters

Led Zeppelin Remasters is a three-LP (or two-cassette or two-CD) compilation album of digitally remastered material by English rock band Led Zeppelin. Containing songs from the band's eight studio albums, it was initially released in the UK and Japan by Atlantic Records on 15 October 1990. The album is essentially a scaled-down version of the four-CD Led Zeppelin Boxed Set.

Track listing

 * "Misty Mountain Hop" and "The Rain Song" were not included on the LP edition of the album.

Personnel
Led Zeppelin
 * John Bonham – drums, percussion
 * John Paul Jones – bass guitar, keyboards, mandolin
 * Jimmy Page – acoustic and electric guitars, production, remastering, digital remastering
 * Robert Plant – vocals, harmonica

Additional musicians
 * Sandy Denny – vocals on "The Battle of Evermore".
 * Ian Stewart – piano on "Rock and Roll"

Production
 * Yves Beauvais – producer
 * Perry Cooper – executive producer
 * Bob Defrin – art direction
 * Larry Fremantle – design
 * Peter Grant – executive producer
 * Bob Gruen – photography
 * Richard "Hutch" Hutchison – design co-ordinator
 * John Kubick – digital editing and transfers
 * George Marino – digital remastering
 * Jennifer Moore – photography and imaging
 * Aubrey Powell – photography
 * Jodi Rovin – design
 * Rhonda Schoen – digital editing and transfers
 * Chris Wroe – photography and imaging

Led Zeppelin Remasters (Bonus Disc edition)
Led Zeppelin Remasters (Bonus Disc edition) is a three-CD and three-cassette compilation album long-case digipak of remastered material by English rock group Led Zeppelin. The discs came in a multicolour dayglo label reflected on the box set cover. It was released in the US by Atlantic Records on 21 February 1992. This release includes a bonus CD featuring promotional interviews with Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and John Paul Jones, included in a sleeve pouch with liner notes from the original Remasters release.

Revised track listing

 * Disc three: Profiled
 * 1) Led Zeppelin Profile
 * 2–8) Jimmy Page Station Liners
 * 9–20) Jimmy Page interview
 * 21–32) Robert Plant interview
 * 33–43) John Paul Jones interview

Disc three was originally issued under the title Profiled, as a promotional accompaniment to the Led Zeppelin Boxed Set.

Personnel
Led Zeppelin
 * John Bonham – drums
 * John Paul Jones – bass guitar, keyboards, mandolin
 * Jimmy Page – guitars, production
 * Robert Plant – vocals, harmonica, tambourine

Additional musicians
 * Sandy Denny – vocals on "The Battle of Evermore"
 * Ian Stewart – piano on "Rock and Roll"

title: Led Zeppelin Remasters


text:
Talk:Type B Cipher Machine

Untitled

 * Note: comments on this page have sometimes been most recent at the top.

Ortolan88: Actually, the Purple machine (called Alpabetical Typewriter with a date indicator by the Japanese) was made of electrical stepping switches, not rotors. It doesn't appear to have been influenced much by the Enigma design, or indeed by any of the rotor machines. The Japanese Navy Captain who desinged them all followed his own star, though there is some mention of a Polish Army Captain who went to Japan to help in crypto design in the '20s. Perhaps an influence? Leo Rosen at SIS was asked to build an equivalent after the SIS team (under Frank Rowlett) figured Purple out, and in an ironic coincidence, chose exactly the same stepping switch the Japanese had used.

On another subject, there is an unsigned comment below talking about digital v analog. The following may help.

All of the rotor machines, and the Purple and its predecessors (Red and the M machine) are actually digital in the sense that a substitution (on either encryption or decryption) is digital. Either q is substituted for f or it isn't. Whether it should have been is another question having to do with how well an analog machine (rotors rotating, electrical contacts making or breaking properly) behaves digitally. Exactly similar considerations underly digital circuits in modern computing equipment. They are implemented using transistors of various types, all of which work by controlling the flow of electrons from hither to thither. A meaningful flow isn't any particular number of electrons for a digital 1 or exactly zero for a digital 0 -- if that happens to be the assignement at that particular logic gate just then. There are always guard bands. Thus, 'a 1 is any voltage greater than such and less than so', while 'a 0 is less than this and greater than zero'. The value of such is always greater than this by some amount, and if the voltage falls between such and this, there will be trouble. A good bit of digital electrical design is devoted to ensuring that ambiguity of this sort doesn't happen. Reshaping circuits, regenerating flipflops, Schmitt triggers, are some of the dodges used.

For a long time, T(ransistor)T(ransisitor)L(ogic) in which one value is nominally +5VDC and the other 0VDC was the standard. In recent years the larger of the two voltages has become smaller. +3.3VDC is used in the PCI bus and +5VDC was used in the first version of the PCI bus. This saves power, extends battery life, and is otherwise good. It also squeezes guard bands and makes tighter circuit design mandatory for digital cicuits, lest the ambiguity get to be too much.

Hope this helped some,

ww.

What do you mean, "analog computer"? Wouldn't it need to be digital? Remember, "digital" does not have to be computerized. A mechanical adding machine can be digital.

Well, the the purple machine is like the Enigma. It consists of a bunch of interlocked letter wheels. The interlocking relationship changes after each letter is typed. In effect, it is exactly the same technology as an odometer, which is certainly analog.

A digital computer works on numbers. An analog computer works on mechanical relationships. I would be interested in hearing of any mechanical adding machine that was digital. An analog computer, such as an odometer, is usally single purpose while a digital computer is multipurpose. Ortolan88

-

Sure thing -- I have used (obsolete) mechanical digital adding machines to add, subtract, multiply, and, with enormous effort, take square roots. The numbers were represented as digits using a series of wheels, one for each power of ten. Babbage's Analytical Engine was another example of a mechanical digital computer.

I'd also disagree with you about an odometer being analog. If the number is stored as a set of digits, then the representation of the number is digital, even if the representation of each digit is analog. Note also that the digits (except the lowest) move in discrete steps.

Here are four examples, showing the full gamut:

 * Mechanical / digital: Babbage's Analytical Engine
 * Mechanical / analog: Mechanical rotating-wheel integrators, slide rules
 * Electronic / digital: nearly all modern computers, pocket calculators
 * Electronic / analog: Op-amp based 1960s and 1970s analog computers

Note also that there is nothing requiring a digital computer to be programmable, or Turing-complete (even though nearly all are). For example, FPGA codebreaking engines and galactic physics simulators are special-purpose electronic digital computers.

The Anome

Hello, The Anome,

Yes, but, and I am way out of my depth here, I am pretty sure that you're supposed to make a distinction between the representation of a value and the way that value is calculated and stored. You have to agree that a mercury thermometer is analog, but it represents values digitally.

As for the odometer, there's a little thing on the axle that transfers the rotary motion from the axle to the odometer, which replicates that motion on some other wheels that just happen to have numbers printed on them and an escapement mechanism (for those discrete steps). When you change your tire size, you have to change a little gear, else the odometer, and its companion analog computer, the speedometer, won't read right. To me that is the essence of "analog".

The odometer doesn't "store" anything. The original Mauchly-Eckert computer, a chunk of which is on display at Harvard U., used odometer mechanisms for display, but all they did was tell you how many times the relay they were attached to had fired, the data, I believe, was stored in memory.

(Fools rush in, I don't know Jack about this, other than having seen the display. My dad was a classmate of John Y. Atanasoff (who taught Mauchly and Eckert everything they knew), but I'm just a tech writer.)

A regular old-fashioned clock is analog too, by my definition, digital representation, discrete steps (some), and all.

That said, you probably know more about this than I do. There is no wikipedia article on computer history, but your outline above certainly belongs there. I think you'd have to have a pretty rigorous definition of the difference between analog and digital to do so, however. I have a little trouble with your roadmap because I think it is mixing the two. For instance, I think, and so does the wikipedia article on analog computers that the slide rule is analog.

What do you think of the wikipedia article on analog computers. It seems to agree with me. (I think it's fabulous!! Actually, it seems a little thin to me, but I couldn't fix it.)

There is no article on "digital computer"; that is redirected to Computer, which is longer, but pretty slapdash in organization. It says analog computers have "no discrete or digital computational ability". By the same token, the purple and Enigma machines didn't compute or store anything. To change the code, you moved the wheels.

Fun computer history fact:

 * On warships there used to be an organization of humans called "the computer", often made up of members of the ship's band, who sat at a table in the depths of the ship during combat, performing simple math and passing along the results to the appropriate next person for the next calculation, which work in summary produced aiming trajectories and the like for the ship's gunners. The original log tables were computed the same way.

Best regards, Ortolan88

Shouldn't the title of this page be "Purple cipher"? Since it really was a cipher and not a code (even the article says this). - Crenner

Engima?
A book I just bought (The Codebreakers) and this site both say that PURPLE was based upon the Enigma. Can someone reference the counter-claim? BrokenSegue 03:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We currently say, "The German Enigma machine was unrelated to PURPLE, though there have been published claims that PURPLE was merely an Enigma copy of some sort". The first part is too strong: PURPLE and Enigma are related in the sense that they are electromechanical cipher machines that produce a polyalphabetic substitution with a long period. They are also similar in that they use a cascade of simpler elements to create a constantly shifting wiring "maze". However, PURPLE is significantly different to Enigma (and all the other rotor machines) by using stepping switches, as opposed to wired rotors. I have references which assert that PURPLE and its sister machines JADE and CORAL are unique amongst crypto machines for using this component (It's not clear that Kahn was aware of this when he write Codebreakers in 1967, as he mentions "coding wheels" in his description of PURPLE. While Enigma could be described as having code-wheels, PURPLE really can't.) It would be false to say that PURPLE was an Enigma copy, pretty much by inspection. As to being based on Enigma, or derived from it, I think we should treat assertions like that with caution, simply because of how much we now know about PURPLE and Enigma's internals, but I haven't found a direct source countering the claim directly. I do have a source which says that the Japanese bought every crypto device on the market (Damm, Korn, Hagelin, Hebern, Kryha...); and adapted those principles for their own machines. PURPLE is as close to the Hebern machine (or other rotor machines) as it is to Enigma. — Matt Crypto  09:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ach, you know so much. Alright I'll keep looking for information (yeah Kahn's book is outdated, I noticed several instances where he is wrong or misleading). BrokenSegue 20:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the section here for now. — Matt Crypto 09:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The German Enigma machine and PURPLE
The German Enigma machine was unrelated to PURPLE, though there have been published claims that PURPLE was merely an Enigma copy of some sort. In fact, the PURPLE machine was a Japanese development, one of a series designed by a Japanese Navy captain, though there seems to have been some assistance by at least one Polish officer prior to the 1930s. There is some evidence that the Germans shipped several military Enigma machines to Japan by submarine late in the War; several sources suggest that they never arrived.

 * Enigmas are rotor machines whereas PURPLE was constructed using telephone relays, I think by Fujitsu. I have heard "knowledgeable" historic claims that this made for a slightly weaker machine.  Whereas apparently no examples survived the war (main page) by Operation Paperclip, somewhere might exist tallies or production counts.  I have a reference for the sub (sunk off Norway), but they likely had them Japan long before the end of the way (in the German embassy in Tokyo and likely else where). 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that the claims about them being unrelated are way too strong. The Purple machine is almost exactly like the enigma machine except that it uses a different part to do the same job. It may not contain rotors like the enigma machine does, but it has banks of stepping switches which are wired in a way so as to achieve exactly the same effect. It's also based off of the Red cipher machine and the Red cipher machine used a rotor. They switched to stepping switches because Red had trouble with dirty contacts on its rotor. KeithyIrwin (talk) 06:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't think that last statement is true, and anyway, if you read the RED article you'll see that it was based on a completely different type of rotor technology than ENIGMA (and indeed, that one of the reasons it is different is that they correctly didn't trust the Japanese not to steal the mutiple rotor technology used in the ENIGMA-style machines). Mangoe (talk) 10:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you both are right: the principle of the cipher is the same or similar, while the implementation in hardware is different. --Ayacop (talk) 08:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, AFAIK. The mechanics were different, but the output result was much the same.  TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  02:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Japanese cipher machine & device
I write it down for reference. Tuve74 11:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs was granted machines from the Navy.
 * Navy's injiki had three models, model1 for use at ground base, model2 for vessel and model3 for attache at oversea.
 * Navy 3-shiki kaejiki was a copy of Enigma, which Kana-letter modified.
 * All Army machines and Navy 3-shiki kaejiki were not put to practical use.
 * TIRPITZ was made in Germany. It is a special type of Engima, 4-rotor and no plug-board.

 * Thankyou for the information, Tuve74; we well probably put this in an article somewhere, possibly the underdeveloped Cryptography in Japan. What source are you using for the above? — Matt Crypto 18:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I am a Japanese, who study Japanese military cipher machines. The above table is translated to English from http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本の機械式暗号, contents 2.
 * At first, I needed to edit the table from many articles, both in English and Japanese. The source articles are also listed same wikipedia, contents from 6.1 to 6.3. Can you read Japanese? - Tuve74 21:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Why Romaji?
Why did crypto machines not use Kana? Jim.henderson 04:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If Kana-type used, somebody has to translate Japanese kana-text in English text at an embassy or a consulate. By use of Roman-type, A diplomatic note in English text can just send and receive it. Of course, Kana-type is convenient and used by communication of the Japanese Navy inside. Tuve74 12:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Thank you. I didn't realize the diplomatic side of cryptography was so much separated from the military side despite the Navy doing the work.  Somebody once told me Japanese Army crypto work was handicapped by the need to translate everything into Italian.  That fellow's confusion between the Roman alphabet and the Italian language warned me that he didn't know what he was talking about, but now I see that a similar problem actually arose in diplomatic communication, presumably due to the difficulty of transliterating foreign languages into the familiar Kana.  Anyway with modern computers using ISO character standards I guess it's all easier.  Jim.henderson 16:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Several other things to consider:

1> If kana was to be used, the coding table would be absolutely huge for even a simple substitution programme. Thus any chance of portability at that time would go out the window. 2> Upon deciphering the Kana, you would have a VERY SPECIFIC decipherment of the code being transmitted. Leaving the concerned party(ies) at even more risk. With romaji, there is an element of still having to translate what was indeed the intent of the message. ie: there are many more combinations of Romaji characters that would be meaningless. 80.5.219.60 (talk) 18:17, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Who was the mathematician?
Answer to Ww, he was Teiji Takagi (高木　貞治)

The articles are below.
 * http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/高木貞治
 * Hiroshi Kimura, "World War II and Teiji Takagi "(第二次世界大戦と高木貞治), 17th Symposium on the History of mathematics 2006, Institute for mathematics and Computer science Tsuda College.
 * "Before and during the war, when the doubt of the printing machine (PURPLE) was decoded in Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Ministry of Foreign Affairs telegraphic communication section without technical knowledge referred to the navy, and the navy quoted evaluation of Teiji Takagi, and concluded that "such thing is impossible".

Tuve74 01:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation about Teiji Takagi was unaware of the basics of cryptanalysis
There is (was) no articles that he was an expert for cryptanalysis. According to the article of Hiroshi Kimura above-mentioned, "No Japanese mathematician aware of relations of a cryptology and mathematics before november 1940". But it is almost impossibility to prove that they ware not. How am I good?
 * In 1937, the Japanese navy was going to evaluate of combinations of key after the PURPLE was completed, not before. The navy looked for a well-qualified mathematician for evaluation.
 * The Japanese mathematicians were not able to give a clear evaluation, Teiji Takagi was one of them also.
 * After having examined for two or three days, Teiji Takagi informed the navy that "Key combinations is more than 1,000,000,000,000. More detailed calculations are not possible". The navy was satisfied with his answer, because he was a most famous mathematician in those days. Tuve74 11:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Poor readabilty
The artiacle is not very readable. Its hard to understand if all the references to navy or amry refer to the american army or the japanes army. Seems like it wasnt writen by a native english speaker. Please somebody improve it.
 * Yes, it's mostly a poor translation from Japanese, and stylistic improvements from someone who knows the subject would be a good thing. No, it's mostly about the Japanese code making authorities, and when it's about the American code breakers, that's generally pretty clear.  Jim.henderson 13:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

No Mention of Genevieve Grotjan Feinstein?
According to the NSA website, Genevieve Grotjan Feinstein was instrumental in the breaking of the Purple cipher, yet the article does not mention her... --ukexpat 14:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * "The Story of Magic", by Rowlett, also indicates that she was the person who made the most important breakin (although it was a team effort, and others had made major contributions before). It's described on pp. 151-153 (1998 hardback edition). Noel (talk) 22:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Truly Amazing
What has become truly amazing to me is how thoroughly Japanese cryptographic material was destroyed during and especially near the end of WWII. With over 100,000 Enigma machines made, admittedly it had a commercial start, we have somewhere a warehouse full of captured machines of various varieties, and a small market economy of traders (e.g., eBay) and various associated peripheral artifacts (e.g., code key books), yet not one JN25 machine (what we call), not one complete Purple or Red and few captured artifacts survive. And the firms which made these machines still survive (not one blueprint survives?). Hard to say how many lower level intelligence officers survive (I think I know the son of a US MIS officer who likely debriefed Japanese officers during and after WWII and had access to post-war collected materials ). It is true that the historic NSAers call the Enigma fans "Enigma" fetishers. Yes, I have read Budiansky's book, and live not far from Two Rock (and need to try to locate Rebeccia what's her name cited in his book). I raised this with David Kahn at a meeting in October, but he didn't know what to say. Ditto Jim Bamford who was also at the meeting. 198.123.51.178 (talk) 23:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

 * not one JN25 machine?? JN25 was, IIRC, a book code? Noel (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

What? no!
This article is poorly written and needs more citations. what is this "Further Reading" section, I do not see it on other articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.171.23 (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

What was Blue?
The article says

 * Clearly, the Purple machine was more secure than Blue,

but doesn't mention Blue again anywhere. What was it?

title: Talk:Type B Cipher Machine


text:
Nectar (disambiguation)

Nectar is the sugar-rich liquid produced by the flowers of plants, in order to attract pollinating animals.

Nectar may also refer to:

 * Nectar, originally a name of the food or drink of the gods in Greek mythology; see ambrosia
 * Nectar (drink), a fruit juice beverage

Places

 * Nectar, Alabama, a town in central Alabama
 * Mare Nectaris, the Sea of Nectar, a geographic feature of the Moon
 * Nectar Covered Bridge, a former covered bridge in Alabama

Companies

 * Nectar d.o.o., a Serbian beverage company
 * Northeast Connecticut Telephone and Ride (NECTAR), predecessor to the Northeastern Connecticut Transit District

Science and technology

 * Nectar (National eResearch Collaboration Tools and Resources), now part of Australian Research Data Commons
 * Nectar Lifesciences, an Indian pharmaceutical organisation
 * Nectar source, a flowering plant that produces nectar

Other uses

 * Nectar, a fictional performance-enhancing drug in Free Radical Design's PS3 game, HAZE
 * Nectar (loyalty card), a loyalty card issued by a partnership of United Kingdom retailers
 * Nectar (Enanitos Verdes album), 1999
 * Nectar (Joji album), 2020

title: Nectar (disambiguation)