text:
Talk:The Pirates of Penzance

Nomenclature: Comic opera
FYI, Gilbert and Sullivan themselves referred to their works as "comic operas" or "operas," never as "operettas." I have therefore restored that phrase. Marc Shepherd 04:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * See "a note on terminology" above and at Talk: Gilbert and Sullivan for more about this. The more than 500 Gilbert and Sullivan-related Wikipedia pages refer to their works as operas, following the authors' intention and the nomencature in the key sources cited in this article, including Jacobs, Stedman, Bradley and Ainger. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this. My spouse insists it's an operetta, but this is a good reason to use "comic opera." Ileanadu (talk) 17:11, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Plot summary
For a change, that plot summary is original, though I had to look up the song names. :) Thus, no attribution appears. -- April

Popeye theme
I removed the following because I can't see a resemblance. Let's see a citation, please before putting it back.
 * The chorus for Oh! better far to live and die begins "For I am a Pirate King (hoorah for the Pirate King)", which was adapted some decades later as the start of the "Popeye" cartoon theme song.

-- Derek Ross | Talk 05:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

And I put it back with a little explanation as to specifics. I don't recall now which author put me on to that fact, but it is true if you bother actually listening to it. Wahkeenah 05:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, so it's different by two notes. Try this on your piano:

 * For I am a Pirate King
 * G-sharp A B B B A G-sharp E
 * Hoorah for the Pirate King
 * B C-sharp A C-sharp E C-sharp B

 * I'm Popeye the sailor man
 * G-sharp B B B A G-sharp B
 * I'm Popeye the sailor man
 * B C-sharp A C-sharp E C-sharp B

Well, the words for Pirate King are actually

 * For I am a Pirate King,
 * He is! Hoorah for the Pirate King

so you're missing another two notes from Pirate King but it's not just a question of the pitch. The rhythmic structure is quite different. As far as I remember without benefit of sheet music it's

 * Pirate King
 * (2) 2, 1 3, 1 1 1 1, 4
 * (2) 1 1, 1 1 1 1, 3 1, 4

 * Popeye
 * 2 1 1, 1 3, 1 3
 * 2 1 1, 1 3, 1 3

The (2)s at the beginning of the Pirate King lines stand for the rest at the beginning of each line. But be that as it may, they are pretty different whether you listen to them or just sing them. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Next thing you'll be telling me that "My Sweet Lord" is not at all like "He's So Fine". Wahkeenah 16:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * And that "Polovtsian Dances" is totally unrelated to "Kismet", . I agree with you about "My Sweet Lord" being like "He's So Fine". -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

When I hear "My Sweet Lord", I keep expecting a girl-chorus background to interpose "Doo-lang, doo-lang" after each line. The similarity of these bits of G&S vs. Popeye do not necessarily jump out at you, the way "Come, friends, who plough the sea" is very obviously the inspiration for "Hail, hail, the gang's all here". But when I read (I forget where) a comment some years ago that compared the two, it became apparent that there was some connection. Maybe there could be something on the Plagiarism page about intentional or unintentional ripoffs of classics. One good example is the triad performed repetitively in the middle of Liszt's "Hungarian Rhapsody" (1851), which is identical to the "Fi-ga-ro" triad performed repetitively in the middle of Rossini's "Largo al Factotum" (1816), a fact which was verbally acknowledged by Bugs Bunny in Rhapsody Rabbit. Then there is the similarity between the beginning of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and the beginning of Cole Porter's "Night and Day", a fact acknowledged by Victor Borge when he would start playing the one and segue seamlessly into the other one. Wahkeenah 23:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I see the that the Popeye theme and ''Oh! better far to live and die'' differ by only 2 notes (out of 7), but the timing is significantly different. And more important, I can find no evidence for the assertion that Sammy Lerner adapted the Sullivan tune when he wrote the Popeye theme. –Shoaler (talk) 18:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Sullivan himself was once accused of similar borrowing, I believe from Mozart, and he supposedly replied, "Well, we both had only the same seven notes to choose from." Although I don't care passionately either way, I lean toward the view that the Pirate King–Popeye connection is rather tenuous. Marc Shepherd

 * What if we say something like, "some people speculate that...."? Personally, I think the connection is pretty obvious.  Ssilvers 19:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * When it is so speculative, it's hard to justify its inclusion. Original research, anyone ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * In addition, there's a Wikipedia style guideline that strongly urges against the vague attribution in phrases like "some people speculate that...." Whose speculation was it? Marc Shepherd 21:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Editors have disputed whether the "Popeye" theme was inspired by "I am the pirate king." Everyone agrees that it is not the identical tune. The question is whether it is so close that the similarity had to be intentional; on this there is no agreement. However, Wikipedia is not the place for speculation. If there is not a citable source, I suggest that the comment be removed from the article. Marc Shepherd 16:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Where Does The Story Take Place
Act I takes place in a small bay on the sea coast in Cornwall, presumably close to Penzance. Act II takes place at the graveyard of a ruined chapel in the grounds of MG Stanley's home, which must also be fairly close to Penzance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Papp's Pirates and NPOV
A recent editor wrote (his contributions underlined):

 * Compared to traditional productions of the opera, Papp's Pirates featured a more swashbuckling Pirate King and Frederic, and a broader, more musical comedy style of humor, emphasizing the antics of the performers over the intrinsic humor of the libretto.

Though perhaps arguably true in one observer's opinion, this comment does not present a neutral point of view and is not verifiable. If you wish to re-introduce the comment, please do so in a manner that preserves NPOV and verifiability. Marc Shepherd 16:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, different productions vary, depending on the director and other factors.  A director of a "traditional" style Pirates production might permit lots of "antics" and liberties by the actors, while a director of a Papp-style production might have a more restrictive idea of the relationship between the book and the actors' liberties.  Ssilvers 18:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Amateur productions
An explanation for the editor who insert info on a particular production. Pirates has been produced thousands and thousands of times around the world. Other than the Papp production, it would be hard to imagine that any one production would be notable enough to add to this article. One would have to create an adaptation that caught on for a very significant number of new productions, or that was shown on Broadway or the West End, or made into a major film, to really warrant a description here. Hope this helps. Ssilvers 05:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed. A production needs to be notable (in the Wikipedia sense of the word) before being described in this article. Probably the only amateur production worth mentioning would be the first one ever staged, if that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Ditto; agree. Marc Shepherd 17:22, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Although I still feel sorry for my buddy Noah- we didn't have enough girls, so he had to play Ruth.-Ardasquin
 * Not that unusual. In the 1970s I went to an all-boys school which put on a G&S show every two years. All the female roles were played by twelve/thirteen year-old boys whose voice hadn't broken yet. So my first appearance in a G&S show was as one of the Major-general's daughters. Nowadays the school is co-ed so if they're still doing G&S I assume that they now have girls playing the female roles. -- Derek Ross | Talk'' 17:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

23a
Can someone who knows the terminology better fix up my footnote on the policeman's chant? Adam Cuerden 12:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes in list of musical numbers
I have removed all footnotes from the list of musical numbers. To take them one by one:

 * "Climbing over rocky mountain" – the fact that this song originated in Thespis is already stated elsewhere in the article.

 * "Pray observe the magnanimity" – there are lots of reprises in G&S. This is a list of musical numbers, not a discussion of musical structure.

 * "Sergeant, approach!" – Again, this is a list of musical numbers, not a discussion of musical structure.

 * "Act II finale" – Much of this was incorrect. The original ending was "At length we are provided with unusual felicity," not ability. This was sung by Ruth, not the Girls. (The verse was divided up, with Ruth, King, Mabel, and Sergeant each getting two lines.) It did not lead into "Poor wand'ring ones," although that's what Papp did. As G&S wrote it, this section ended the opera.

 * "You/We triumph now" – easily accommodated in the main list; no footnote needed.

The page WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan/Opera articles gives our proposed structure for the opera articles. A discussion of the musical structure should reside in a section called "Musical elements."

A discussion of alternative/deleted versions should reside in a section called "Versions." The Pirates article already has such a section, although it is incomplete. I would suggest we revise it, rather than continuing to complicate the list of musical numbers. Marc Shepherd 13:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Addendum: Some of the information in the footnotes was useful, and should be added elsewhere in the article. For instance, I didn't realize that "Sergeant, approach" is a reference to the canticle and response from the Anglican church service. (I am not an Anglican, and wouldn't know.) But the G&S works abound in such references. I believe Mabel's cadenza on "Yes, 'tis Mabel" is a direct quote from the Kreutzer sonata of Beethoven. Once you start using the List of Musical Numbers to footnote cultural references, where does it stop? Marc Shepherd 14:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why don't you restore the notable material that you cut under appropriate headings so that we can edit it? --Ssilvers 15:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't see anything worth restoring. Anyone else, feel free to give it a shot. I myself will expand the Versions section when I get a chance (if no one else gets to it first), but what was stated in the footnote—besides being misplaced–was incorrect. Had it been accurate, I would have moved it rather than deleting it. Marc Shepherd 16:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. It sounds like the "sergeant approach" info needs to go into some kind of "Analysis" section rather than a version section? --Ssilvers 17:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * It definitely doesn't go in "Versions," as it's not anything that changed from one version to another.

 * Some of the G&S opera articles make comments on cultural references in the Background sections, without breaking it into a separate "Analysis" section. I think that's okay. At some point, when there's enough of it, a separate section becomes appropriate.

 * But Pirates happens to have quite a bit of quoting and paying homage to other pieces of music. I think that if we mention one example in isolation, it takes on the feel of a "factoid." The work Arthur Sullivan is a great example. It reads in an encyclopedic fashion, rather than just being a random collection of facts. Marc Shepherd 18:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the "Sergeant, approach" number is a little more awkward than most: It's not in the vocal score, but is a partially chanted dialogue with minor orchestral accompaniment. It's not a simple "musical number". The rest... point taken. Adam Cuerden 20:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Have added a (currently hidden) footnote to that effect. Fix it up and make it visible if you like it. Adam Cuerden 23:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I have moved the relevant information into the main text and added some context. I would suggest that this is the way such information should be handled in the future, not as footnotes embedded in the list of roles or the list of musical numbers. (A separate section on musical elements would also be appropriate if there is more to say, but as it's just one paragraph, I embedded it in the Background section.) Furthermore, the statement (in the original footnote) that the E naturals are played in the orchestra was incorrect. This passage is unaccompanied. Marc Shepherd 15:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Odd. Could have sworn the score had a piano part. Adam Cuerden 16:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what Marc means -- in the P/V score the E's are certainly played. But the note reads nicely now, so who cares.  --Ssilvers 17:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you listen to a recording, you'll find that the orchestra isn't playing. I suspect it's in the P/V as a rehearsal aid. Marc Shepherd 18:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Or just a traditional cut-of-accompaniment. I mean, having the orchestra play under the chanting is a rather awkward idea if you can find some other way to keep the police in tune. Adam Cuerden 20:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just checked. The orchestration has no accompaniment. The Chappell vocal score cues the first E-natural in the piano, which I'm sure was put there only for rehearsal purposes. It could also be useful in a production with weak singers, but that's not how Sullivan intended it to be heard. Marc Shepherd 01:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Why does this article make absolutely no mention of the work "Queen Victoria March," also known as "To Queen Victoria's Name We Bow" being included in the original work?

See here and scroll down, or even listen to it: http://oldsoaks.mugss.org/shows/2002/index.htm
 * It is not include in the "original" work, although it was included in the single (on book) copyright performance in Paignton. There is a lot in the Paignton draft that is not included in the others and was never performed again.  -- Ssilvers 05:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Important Omission
This is the original research by Kevin Wachs on the subject - it MUST be added to the article, I think

 * I seriously considered this. I didn't include Wachs's research for the same reason I didn't include my own. Although both are available on websites, both fall into the category of "new research" that doesn't yet have broad acceptance in the G&S community. To present Wachs's view, my view, and the Tillet/Spencer view would take the article far afield from its core subject matter. There is one paragraph addressing all of this (the 3rd paragraph under "background." This, I think, is about as far as the article should go. Marc Shepherd 14:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. There is nothing wrong with adding the "External link" to each article, however, for anyone who wishes to do further reading.  Instead of saying "Kevin Wachs article", however, perhaps it should say "2005 article from GASBAG entitled ...."? -- Ssilvers 18:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase "copyright piracy"
The article now states: "American companies quickly mounted unauthorized "pirated" productions..." as if the word piracy was already in use for copyright infringement and in 1880.
 * When did the word gain this secondary meaning?
 * Did The Pirates of Penzance have any effect in the adoption of this meaning?

-- Petri Krohn 18:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, references to the "pirating" of stage works was already in use. -- Ssilvers 01:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The OED dates the sense "A person or company who reproduces or uses the work of another (as a book, recording, computer program, etc.) without authority and esp. in contravention of patent or copyright; a plagiarist. Also: a thing reproduced or used in this way." from 1603. OK, it doesn't specifically mention a stage-work, but I think it would include it. --ColinFine (talk) 22:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Our own article on Thomas Arne quotes him asking people not to "give any Encouragement to pirated copies, written or printed", in 1741 or thereabouts, and he is definitely talking about his own operas, songs and other works. -- Derek Ross | Talk'' 21:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Frederic's age when he reaches his 21st birthday
The play is set in Queen Victoria's time, so if Frederic lives to his eighties, his lifespan will include 1900 which was not a leap year, so he won't have a birthday for the eight years between 1896 and 1904. Therefore he won't have his 21st birthday until he is 88 years old. Jess Cully 23:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, although it is not clear whether Gilbert forgot that, and it is likewise not clear in precisely what year the action of the show is meant to be set. In any case, it is a very technical point and detracts from a first-time reader's understanding of the plot, so I fudged the issue by writing "in his eighties".  Let a reader understand the plot before becoming embroiled in the controversy over exactly when Fredric was born and whether Gilbert meant for him to be 84 or 88 on his 21st birthday.  In fact, the important issue for the plot summary is that he is not yet 21 and must rejoin the pirates.  The fact that the year when he will turn 21 is named was just to get a laugh.  -- Ssilvers 01:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

"Errors in the Script"
An anonymous editor added a section called "Errors in the script". I have modified it somewhat to take out some inaccuracies and called it "Anomalies" in the script. Is it worth keeping? I am not sure that it adds to the reader's understanding of the opera. -- Ssilvers 05:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've moved it here: It could be good eventually, but it needs a more substantial depth of coverage (e.g. "Swollen by the summer rain" as an unrewritten Thespis line) before it's quite ready. Let's fix it up here, then move it back. Adam Cuerden talk 06:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The section is silly. We could add a similar section to The Mikado explaining that in fact there was no Chancellor of the Exchequer in 19th-century Japan; or one to H.M.S. Pinafore explaining that Ralph Rackstraw is clearly old enough to be Josephine's father; none of this would be adding value to the encyclopedia. --Quuxplusone 04:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Let's leave it out. -- Ssilvers 05:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good points. I do think we could do a bit more with textual analysis of the operas, but this isn't how. Adam Cuerden talk 09:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Anomalies in the script
Two anomalies arguably are found in the play's script. First, while Frederic's birthday, February 29th, is being celebrated in the opening scene (presumably it is March 1, since Frederic is 21, so it must not be a leap year). In the next scene, however, Major-General Stanley's daughters sing of the "summer rain" (a line carried over from Thespis, for which the song "Climbing over Rocky Mountain" was originally written) and wish to dip their feet in the water at the Cornish seaside, jumping to descriptions and activities from a different season. They alsomention that they are waiting for their papa and the servants to arrive with the luncheon. However, their father, according to the stage directions, arrives alone.

There is another one. During the "often/orphan" argument, the Pirate King says he "only repeated (the word 'often') once. Later, he states that he only said it once, when repeating it once would mean he said it twice (which he actually did). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.41.161 (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Fulfill
For the G&S articles, we use UK spellings. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, however, Fulfil and Fulfill are both correct in the UK. In the US, only Fulfill is correct. In such situations, WP guidelines suggest that it is better to choose a spelling that is correct in both countries. I made the opposite argument in the musical theatre article, which uses US spellings, saying that we should use the spelling "theatre" instead of "theater", since the former spelling is acceptable in both countries. -- Ssilvers 04:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Very sensible! -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Gracious me! The spelling with three ls is new to me but I must concur. (As with the ubiquitous -ize endings) Tim riley 23:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry about any "-ize's": "-ise" is correct for British subject articles. :-)    Best regards, -- Ssilvers 06:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Dubious statement
The introduction says, "Its successful 1981 Broadway revival by Joseph Papp refreshed its popularity."

The word "refreshed" suggests that its popularity had been on-the-wane, and that Papp's production was responsible for resurrecting it. To be sure, there was certainly a blip of extra interest in the mid-1980s, just as the release of Topsy-Turvy generated extra interest in The Mikado. But as far as I know, Pirates today is pretty much where it always was in the G&S pecking order. Marc Shepherd 16:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree that it probably didn't change the order of the Big three (whatever it was - I think the opera people say Mikado, Pin, Pir, but the musicals people say Mikado, Pirates, Pin), but I think "refreshed" is a reasonable description - There are lots of productions of Pirates that are influenced by the Papp production, and the mere fact that it had a successful Broadway revival is very helpful in keeping a work before the theatre-going public. But I don't care that much, so feel free to edit away.  Meanwhile, have you opened your boxes enough to do the Gondoliers production/casting history?  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 17:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

 * If the G&S pieces still have more-or-less the same overall level of popularity as they did before, and if Pirates still has the same relative place in the hierarchy, then Papp's production can't really be said to have "refreshed" anything—except perhaps temporarily. I do agree that the production's influence is still felt.

 * Yes, I expect to be able to do the Gondoliers production/casting history shortly. Marc Shepherd 17:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Leap Years
It seems to me that since we know that the Happy Event occurs in 1940...
 * If 1900 is counted as a leap year then Frederick's 21st Birthday occurs after 21 four year periods, (when he is 84 (= 21 * 4) years old)
 * If 1900 is not counted as a leap year then Frederick's 21st Birthday occurs after 20 four year periods and 1 eight year period when he is 88 (= 20 * 4 + 8) years old

... or have I got it wrong ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

 * You've got it right. Gilbert clearly assumed that 1900 would be a leap year. Isaac Asimov wrote a short story about that little mistake (sorry...don't have the reference). Marc Shepherd 14:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Haven't read Asimov's story but it occurs to me that if Frederick was a member of an Orthodox church using the Julian calendar system (perhaps he came from a Russian or Balkan family which had settled in England), there is no need to assume that either Gilbert or Frederick made a mistake in their assumption about the leap year status of 1900. -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's true, but it starts to get a little far-fetched. Over the years, people have proposed many elaborate explanations to get around the plot inconsistencies that abound in Gilbert's librettos. I think the reality is that he just didn't care very much about it. Marc Shepherd 15:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Derek. Welcome back. The name of the Asimov story was "The Year of the Action". I think that the edit that the editor tried to make in the article this morning would confuse most readers. Most readers will be struggling to grasp the whole leap year joke at face value and will barely follow the idea that Gilbert may have made a counting mistake. To add in the concept of whether F. would have been 84 or 88 seems to me to add unnecessary confusion. My own opinion is that even if Gilbert did have in mind that 1900 skipped the leap year, he still would have written the text to gloss over this so as not to confuse his audience. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 16:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

IMNVHO, there's a really dubious assumption buried in all discussions of this: that Frederic was actually born on leap year's day, as the pirate king asserts. There's plenty of reason to question this; just to start with, the daughters' proposal to go wading in the ocean at that season. (This is not the only G&S play in which Gilbert has a character make a surprising if not ridiculous statement, with far-reaching consequences, which is just accepted without any question by the rest of the characters. Buttercup's confession in Pinafore comes to mind, but there are some others.)  I'm convinced that Gilbert did this on purpose, expecting the topsy-turvy logic which he loved so well to be recognized as such. A character says it? It must be true! Davecat4 (talk) 00:17, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The sea off Penzance is warmer than, say, the North Sea but I must admit that my experience is that I wouldn't want to swim in either sea at any time of year unless I absolutely had to. Wading on the other hand would be okay. The season actually doesn't change the sea temperature that much, just the air temperature, and while that would be a concern for swimming, it really isn't for wading. -- Derek Ross | Talk'' 07:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pirates-of-penzance-DVDcover.jpg
Image:Pirates-of-penzance-DVDcover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I added separate fair use rationales for each article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

February 29
Could someone familiar with The Pirates of Penzance help with the wording about Frederic in the February 29 article? Kingturtle (talk) 13:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Done. Happy 37th, Fred!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

SpaceQuest Reference
Perhaps it was not considered sufficiently relevant to be placed in the cultural references, but Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon was named in parody of Penzance. 64.56.226.217 (talk) 03:34, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

 * It doesn't look like the game has anything at all to do with The Pirates of Penzance, does it? The similarity in the name seems purely coincidental, no?  Even if it's some kind of pun on the name of the show, it doesn't seem to be a significant reference, unless the game itself or some part of it parodies Pirates.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Role list
The role list is as shown in the score and libretto. Please do not change it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Next time, consider adding a comment next to the headline, such as:
 * ===Roles===
 * So that editors can see the reason right before they make an edit. Eugeniu B  msg  06:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Not completely so. There are many publications of the score and libretto that give the names of the Pirate King and the Sergeant as Richard and Edward, respectively. Furthermore, Major-General Stanley is the fourth name in the list, not the first. The roles go King, Samuel, Frederic, Stanley, Sergeant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.244.179.222 (talk • contribs)
 * This seems to be a first night version. Most modern editions of libretto (e.g. Bradley's one) have it in a way presented in article, and so does Original Plays, volume 2 (an edition published during Gilbert's lifetime).  Anyway, I'm going to add a footnote. vvvt 17:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Generally, I don't think that role lists on Wikipedia require a note about sources, unless there is a genuine controversy. G&S opera role lists exist in settled states available in the major modern editions of the score (e.g., Chappell and Schirmer), as well as in Bradley (1996), which is the most respected modern compilation of the libretti. I think it's just clutter. If you think we need something, I'd go with Eugeniu's idea of a hidden comment. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not completely sure whether it's useful or not, so I'll leave it up to you. Perhaps we may mention it in the "Versions" section.  vvvt 18:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I think your footnote is OK. Thanks. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:02, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Synopsis; Birthday
An editor modified the article to add, early in the synopsis, the date, February 29, as the date of the opening scene. This is wrong for two reasons. First, it is jumping the gun, because the joke about leap year doesn't occur until Act II, and it upsets the narrative flow of the synopsis to start off with it. Second, Frederic is 21 (or 5 and 1/4), so this is not a leap year, and there is no 29 February this year. It must be either March 1 or Feb. 28. Also, as to exactly what year it is, scholars cannot agree, because it is not known whether Gilbert took into account the fact that there was no leap day in 1900 due to the calendar correction. That issue has been discussed here before. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

External link
I have removed a link from this and other G&S pages for reasons given at Talk:The_Mikado - Tim riley (talk) 11:27, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree that the link can't be used here. See also WP:EL.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Disaster"
Should the episode Disaster be included in Cultural Impact? Dr. Crusher and Lt. Cmdr. La Forge are in a cargo bay discussing La Forge's possible participation in a ship production of The Pirates of Penzance and, at Dr. Crusher request, Lt. Cmdr LaForge sings the opening of I am the Very Model of A Modern Major General. Profharoldhill (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Can you cite to a WP:Reliable source that shows that this takes place during this episode? I see that the Wikipedia article mentions it, but there is no cite, and startrek.com does not mention it.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Another "in popular culture" tip
The manual to the original 1985 Paradox (database) was prefaced by the lines from The Pirates:

A paradox, a paradox, A most ingenious paradox! We’ve quips and quibbles heard in flocks, But none to beat this paradox!

This is the same Ansa Software manual that featured a double redirect in its index:

Dead parrots, see Parrots, Dead Parrots, dead, see Dead Parrots

Ah, unfortunately, the manual was recycled at about the same time when we switched from DOS to Win 3.11, so don't ask me for page numbers. Once a great product, it is now remembered only by mossbacks like yours truly. -- East of Borschov 18:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

 * This is fun to know but problably not of encyclopedic interest if the 1985 manual is no longer widely available. See WP:Trivia.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

New York Tribune Review
I was delighted to find a fascinating review of the first performance of The Pirates Of Penzance. It was published in the New York Tribune on January 1st. 1880 and a real gem! Visit the article here: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1880-01-01/ed-1/seq-5/ MZionC (talk) 12:42, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I added this in the article.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

63 or 67
OK, I've been reverted by two editors, so I'd better discuss this. But I really don't understand what's to discuss. The article itself explains the problem with the year 1900. If 1900, which was not a leap year, was taken into account, then Frederic's 21st birthday does not occur until he is 88, which is 67 years after the action of the play. What possible counterargument could there be? Enlighten me. --Trovatore (talk) 08:14, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

 * It is really a matter of emphasis. The actual plot itself betrays no ambiguity whatsoever. The reader of the article, upon encountering the proposed parenthetical "or 67" in the second paragraph, would be utterly perplexed. Only at the very bottom of the article would the poor reader find the explanation, in the form of a single sentence about an Isaac Asimov short story, buried in a section called "Other references". And although Asimov (writing a hundred years later) considers at some length whether the opera is set in the year 1873 or 1877, there is no evidence that Gilbert or his audiences gave it the slightest consideration. Marc Shepherd (talk) 10:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Trovatore's arithmetic is impeccable, but the general view has been that Gilbert simply overlooked the fact that 1900 would not be a leap year. He was not worried about temporal anomalies: cf. Pinafore where someone described as a "lad" and someone old enough to be his father-in-law turn out to have been swapped as babies. I agree it would be very confusing to offer readers two calculations – better stick with the generally accepted one, with apologies to the Astronomer Royal. – Tim riley (talk) 11:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I would go even farther than that: most of the literature on Gilbert & Sullivan doesn't mention this problem at all. It really is a very minor point that most writers on the subject have not even bothered to mention. Marc Shepherd (talk) 16:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Does the literature mention the 63 years per se? If not, maybe it would be best to remove the entire calculation as (admittedly very minor) original research.  --Trovatore (talk) 18:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

It's just arithmetic. That's not OR. If the action of the play is in 1877, as Gilbert probably assumed, then it is 63 years. Here's an article that specifically mentions 63 years: http://www.highcountrypress.com/weekly/2009/12-22-09/asu-performing-arts-series.htm Why make a big deal over this? The way it is written now is helpful to the reader in understanding the joke - the point is that it is going to be a long time, and Frederic and Mabel will be old. Really, do you have anything helpful to contribute here? Perhaps you can do some research on productions around the world over the last 130 years and add more information to the productions section. Or add a textual analysis section? We have all been working on the G&S articles for over four years, and we think you are simply off base. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How do we know he assumed it was in 1877? If you just want to say it will be a long time, you could say that.  I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that Gilbert missed this rather obvious point, and it will look bad to a reader who bothers to do the arithmetic for himself. --Trovatore (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * For those inclined to explore the literature, the fullest consideration I know of this byway is in Bradley (The Annotated G&S - p. 140 in my copy [note: p. 244 in Bradley 1996], but that is an earlier edition than the one quoted in the article.) He gives 25 lines to the matter, but towards the end acknowledges that it is "entirely of academic interest". - Tim riley (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Responding to Trovatore's last question: Because the piece was written in 1879. But whether he did or didn't, whether he remembered about 1900 or thought his audiences would remember, who cares. It's a joke, see? It is not obvious at all to anyone watching the opera; it is beside the point. You are missing the point because you are focused on math, rather than the humor of the opera. Please read Tim riley's first comment above. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I certainly get the point that it doesn't remotely matter in the context of the play. Just as it doesn't matter that the whole premise is impossible, because at the start they are supposedly celebrating his release from indentures on the day, but there is no such day because it's not a leap year.
 * But this is an academic article, not a humor piece in and of itself, and it looks bad to assert baldly "63 years", which is not stated anywhere in the text, and which when the text is analyzed as best it can be, does not follow. --Trovatore (talk) 19:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Bradley (1996) specifically says that "on the face of it" Frederic is 84 years old in 1940. He explains at length about the 1900 anomaly and wonders whether or not Gilbert was aware of it. But, as Marc Shepherd notes above, no one watching the opera worries about this. BTW, this is not an academic journal, it is an encyclopedia for general reference. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I've added a footnote. Satisfied?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that works, thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 20:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Crowd pleaser
Two observations, which someone else may be able to substantiate.

1) The police songs and "dance," were such crowd pleasers that the audiences insisted on encores nearly every time they were performed from 1880 to (about) 1980. Modern tastes have become more jaded, I guess.

2) "Hail to Poetry" is as close to serious as the operetta gets. Ought to be able to mention that somewhere. Student7 (talk) 20:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

 * 1) Many numbers were encored. I don't think it's relevant.  It was true of all the G&S shows, and, in fact, many, many other shows of the period.  Since there was no recording technology, the only way to hear a number again (unless you wanted to buy another ticket or buy the score and sing it at home) was to call for an encore.  Some argue that the many (too many) encores given by the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company in later years is one reason why that company did not survive longer.  2)  I agree that this article still needs good analysis sections for both text and music.  Someday I'll get to it.  However, most good comedies have serious moments.  I doubt you could prove that "Hail Poetry"  (not "Hail TO Poetry") is more serious than, say, the Major General's speech at the beginning of Act II, or Ruth's plea to Frederic that he take her with him back to civilization, or the opening section and touching duet section of "Ah!  Leave me not to Pine Alone".  In fact, "Hail Poetry" is usually seen as an OTT "mock-serious" satire of churchy odes to art, and the introduction to it is certainly "mock serious".  It's just one of many things satirized in this piece.  All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I will concede "mock serious" for Hail to Poetry.
 * But D'oyly Carte was not the only one to encore the police scene. I never attended any performance of Pirates where that scene was not encored, and no other. Nor have I seen any G&S when any other songs were encored. But not since the 80s or so. (Posted by Student7 (talk) on 3 November 2010)
 * Hi. I don't agree.  The Major-General's song is normally encored, not the Sergeant of Police's number, although I have known it done.  There's no point in arguing about it, though.  Let's see WP:Reliable sources to support what you say.  Otherwise, it's just WP:OR.  If you can find, for example, newspaper reviews where the reviewer notes that he or she always sees the number encored, then we can quote him/her.  All the best. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There was also the 1994 Esgee production of Penzance with Jon English that encored not only Major-General, but also "With Cat-Like Tread," multiple times. The filmed pro-shot showed that the total number of encores were 6, count 'em, 6. Has there ever been a production that went completely "overboard", so to speak, with their encores? As far as I'm concerned, this is, in my opinion, the one song from a G&S work that is okay to encore an infinite number of times. Any more than 3 on "How-De-Do" and 6 on "Never mind the why and wherefore," and you're in trouble. Maestrojosh87 (talk) 17:35, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Anglican church service
I can't argue with the statement about the exchange between Mabel and the police. But the police response is really a form of Gregorian chant, well pre-dating Anglican, which might not make any sense if used directly in this article. I'm sure the author and Anglicans were well-aware of this connection. Student7 (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The source cited (Evening Standard) says: "Anglican Church responses". -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Nice link
That's a nice little interview with Sir Arthur that you just linked to, ssilvers. Good find, I enjoyed reading it. Thanks! -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:16, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Thanks. You can see lots of great links to interviews of G or S on the Archive now: Sullivan and Gilbert. Enjoy!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Vocal parts
I have reverted the changes to this section. We must follow the published sources. See the vocal score here. The role of Ruth was created by Alice Barnett, who also created two other Gilbert and Sullivan contralto roles, Lady Jane in Patience and the Fairy Queen in Iolanthe. See also this. For more information, please see WP:OR and WP:V. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:30, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations!
Congratulations on appearing on Wikipedia's main page as a "Did you know..." listing. I've been involved in the DYK process, (never successfully, I might add!) and so I know the time it takes and the coordination required between between editors...let's just say it isn't the easiest thing to accomplish. You deserve recognition, appreciation and applause. Thank you very much to all the contributing editors who made this listing possible.:The Very Best of Regards,  Bfpage |leave a message 11:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Suitable for Did you know?
The article's account of the first performance, to secure British Copyright, with the cast reading their lines from scripts and without proper costumes, sounds a suitable candidate for WP:DYK. Has it already featured as such? If not, perhaps one of the regular editors of the article might want to put it forward. (I only came here as the article was used as an example on a presentational issue.) ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 09:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 * The Paignton performance would, I agree, make a good hook for DYK, but unless the DYK rules have changed a lot since last time I looked, I don't think the article is eligible -- it needs to be either a new article or a greatly expanded GA, doesn't it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 * I'd forgotten that, but it is rather a pity. And this snippet touches on the interests of this editor who is often puzzled by copyright law. Cheers, ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Copyright law today is quite different from the 19th century. For example, there is a now an international copyright treaty that protects the work of creators throughout the world, which is partly thanks to G&S's efforts over the years. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:40, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Pirates of Penzance


text:
History of Wales

The history of what is now Wales (Cymru) begins with evidence of a Neanderthal presence from at least 230,000 years ago, while Homo sapiens arrived by about 31,000 BC. However, continuous habitation by modern humans dates from the period after the end of the last ice age around 9000 BC, and Wales has many remains from the Mesolithic, Neolithic, and Bronze Age. During the Iron Age the region, like all of Britain south of the Firth of Forth, the culture had become Celtic, with a common Brittonic language. The Romans, who began their conquest of Britain in AD 43, first campaigned in what is now northeast Wales in 48 against the Deceangli, and gained total control of the region with their defeat of the Ordovices in 79. The Romans departed from Britain in the 5th century, opening the door for the Anglo-Saxon settlement. Thereafter, the culture began to splinter into a number of kingdoms. The Welsh people formed with English encroachment that effectively separated them from the other surviving Brittonic-speaking peoples in the early middle ages.

In the post-Roman period, a number of Welsh kingdoms formed in present-day Wales, including Gwynedd, Powys, Ceredigion, Dyfed, Brycheiniog, Ergyng and Gwent. While some rulers extended their control over other Welsh territories and into western England, none were able to unite Wales for long. Internecine struggles and external pressure from the English and later, the Norman conquerors of England, led to the Welsh kingdoms coming gradually under the sway of the English crown. In 1282, the death of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd led to the conquest of the Principality of Wales by King Edward I of England; since then, the heir apparent to the English monarch has borne the title "Prince of Wales". The Welsh launched several revolts against English rule, the last significant one being that led by Owain Glyndŵr in the early 15th century. In the 16th century Henry VIII, himself of Welsh extraction as a great-grandson of Owen Tudor, passed the Laws in Wales Acts aiming to fully incorporate Wales into the Kingdom of England.

Wales became part of the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707 and then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. Yet, the Welsh retained their language and culture despite heavy English dominance. The publication of the extremely significant first complete Welsh translation of the Bible by William Morgan in 1588 greatly advanced the position of Welsh as a literary language. The 18th century saw the beginnings of two changes that would greatly affect Wales, the Welsh Methodist revival, which led the country to turn increasingly nonconformist in religion, and the Industrial Revolution. During the rise of the British Empire, 19th century Southeast Wales in particular experienced rapid industrialisation and a dramatic rise in population as a result of the explosion of the coal and iron industries. Wales played a full and willing role in World War One. The industries of the Empire in Wales declined in the 20th century with the end of the British Empire following the Second World War, while nationalist sentiment and interest in self-determination rose. The Labour Party replaced the Liberal Party as the dominant political force in the 1920s. Wales played a considerable role during World War Two, along with the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Allies, and its cities were bombed extensively during the Blitz. The nationalist party Plaid Cymru gained momentum from the 1960s. In a 1997 referendum, Welsh voters approved the devolution of governmental responsibility to a National Assembly for Wales which first met in 1999, renamed Senedd Cymru/Welsh Parliament in May 2020.

Prehistoric era

The earliest known human remains discovered in modern-day Wales is a Neanderthal jawbone, found at the Bontnewydd Palaeolithic site in the valley of the River Elwy in North Wales, whose owner lived about 230,000 years ago in the Lower Palaeolithic period. The Red Lady of Paviland, a human skeleton dyed in red ochre, was discovered in 1823 in one of the Paviland limestone caves of the Gower Peninsula in Swansea, South Wales. Despite the name, the skeleton is that of a young man who lived about 33,000 years ago at the end of the Upper Paleolithic Period (old Stone Age). It is considered to be the oldest known ceremonial burial in Western Europe. The skeleton was found along with jewellery made from ivory and seashells and a mammoth's skull.

Following the last ice age, Wales became roughly the shape it is today by about 8000 BC and was inhabited by Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. The earliest farming communities are now believed to date from about 4000 BC, marking the beginning of the Neolithic period. This period saw the construction of many chambered tombs, particularly dolmens or cromlechs. The most notable examples of megalithic tombs include Bryn Celli Ddu and Barclodiad y Gawres on Anglesey, Pentre Ifan in Pembrokeshire, and Tinkinswood Burial Chamber in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Metal tools first appeared in Wales about 2500 BC, initially copper followed by bronze. The climate during the Early Bronze Age (c. 5000–1400 BC) is thought to have been warmer than at present, as there are many remains from this period in what are now bleak uplands. The Late Bronze Age (c. 1400–750 BC) saw the development of more advanced bronze implements. Much of the copper for the production of bronze probably came from the copper mine on the Great Orme, where prehistoric mining on a very large scale dates largely from the middle Bronze Age. Radiocarbon dating has shown the earliest hillforts in what would become Wales, to have been constructed during this period. Historian John Davies, theorises that a worsening climate after around 1250 BC (lower temperatures and heavier rainfall) required more productive land to be defended.

The earliest iron implement found in Wales is a sword from Llyn Fawr which overlooks the head of the Vale of Neath, which is thought to date to about 600 BC. Hillforts continued to be built during the British Iron Age. Nearly 600 hillforts are in Wales, over 20% of those found in Britain, examples being Pen Dinas near Aberystwyth and Tre'r Ceiri on the Llŷn peninsula. A particularly significant find from this period was made in 1943 at Llyn Cerrig Bach on Anglesey when the ground was being prepared for the construction of a Royal Air Force base. The cache included weapons, shields, chariots along with their fittings and harnesses, and slave chains and tools. Many had been deliberately broken and seem to have been votive offerings.

A tendency to see the creation of hillforts as evidence of a Celtic invasion that also brought a Celtic language to the Britain has been dealt a blow by recognition that the earliest forts predate the arrival of Iron Age Celtic culture by hundreds of years. The present tendency is to reject the hypothesis of mass invasion in favour of more sporadic migration and a cultural spread of language and ideas, a "culminative Celticity".

Roman era
The Roman conquest of Wales began in AD 48 and took 30 years to complete; the occupation lasted over 300 years. The most famous of resistance was led by Caradog of the Celtic Catuvellauni tribe (modern day Essex), which were defeated by the Romans. Now leading the Celtic tribes of the Ordovices and Silures (of present day Monmouthshire), Caradog led a successful guerilla war against the Romans. His armies were eventually defeated at the Battle of Caer Caradog on the Anglo-Welsh border in AD 50. Caradog was later taken to Rome and gave a speech, impressing the Roman emperor to the extent that he was pardoned and allowed to live peacefully in Rome.

The Roman conquest was completed in 78, with Roman rule lasting until 383. Roman rule in Wales was a military occupation, save for the southern coastal region of South Wales east of the Gower Peninsula, where there is a legacy of Romanisation. The only town in Wales founded by the Romans, Caerwent, is located in South Wales. Both Caerwent and Carmarthen, also in southern Wales, would become Roman civitates. By AD 47, Rome had invaded and conquered all of southernmost and southeastern Britain under the first Roman governor of Britain. As part of the Roman conquest of Britain, a series of campaigns to conquer Wales was launched by his successor in 48 and would continue intermittently under successive governors until the conquest was completed in 78. It is these campaigns of conquest that are the most widely known feature of Wales during the Roman era due to the spirited but unsuccessful defence of their homelands by two native tribes, the Silures and the Ordovices.

The Demetae of southwestern Wales seem to have quickly made their peace with the Romans, as there is no indication of war with Rome, and their homeland was not heavily planted with forts nor overlaid with roads. The Demetae would be the only Welsh tribe to emerge from Roman rule with their homeland and tribal name intact.

Wales was a rich source of mineral wealth and the Romans used their engineering technology to extract large amounts of gold, copper, and lead, as well as modest amounts of some other metals such as zinc and silver. When the mines were no longer practical or profitable, they were abandoned. Roman economic development was concentrated in southeastern Britain, with no significant industries located in Wales. This was largely a matter of circumstance, as Wales had none of the needed materials in suitable combination, and the forested, mountainous countryside was not amenable to development.

Subsequent medieval Welsh lore developed a series of legends around Macsen Wledig, a literary and mythical figure derived from Magnus Maximus, a historical Roman general who revolted and became Emperor in the west from 383 to 388. Magnus Maximus was based in Britain in the early 380s, immediately prior to his usurpation of the throne. Several medieval Welsh dynasties claimed that they were descended from Macsen, thereby linking their origins to the legitimacy and prestige of a Roman past. Later Welsh genealogies, medieval poetry, for example the Mabinogion, and chronicles such as the Historia Brittonum and Annales Cambriae, used myths and legends to give roles in Welsh history to historical and quasi-historical figures from the Roman and Sub-Roman periods. Aside from Macsen Wledig, other examples include St Helena, the Emperor Constantine and Coel Hen.

Early Middle Ages: 383–1000
When the Roman garrison of Britain was withdrawn in 410, the various British states were left self-governing. Evidence for a continuing Roman influence after the departure of the Roman legions is provided by an inscribed stone from Gwynedd dated between the late 5th and mid-6th centuries commemorating a certain Cantiorix who was described as a citizen (cives) of Gwynedd and a cousin of Maglos the magistrate (magistratus). There was considerable Irish colonisation in Dyfed, where there are many stones with ogham inscriptions. Wales had become Christian under the Romans, and the 'age of the saints' (approximately 500–700) was marked by the establishment of monastic settlements throughout the country, by religious leaders such as Saint David, Illtud and Saint Teilo.

One of the reasons for the Roman withdrawal was the pressure put upon the empire's military resources by the incursion of barbarian tribes from the east. These tribes, including the Angles and Saxons, gradually took control of eastern and southern Britain. At the Battle of Chester in 616, the forces of Powys and other British kingdoms were defeated by the Northumbrians under Æthelfrith, with king Selyf ap Cynan among the dead. It has been suggested that this battle finally severed the land connection between Wales and the kingdoms of the Hen Ogledd ("Old North"), the Brittonic-speaking regions of what is now southern Scotland and northern England, including Rheged, Strathclyde, Elmet and Gododdin, where Old Welsh was also spoken. From the 8th century on, Wales was by far the largest of the three remnant Brittonic areas in Britain, the other two being the Hen Ogledd and Cornwall.

Wales was divided into a number of separate kingdoms, the largest of these being Gwynedd in northwest Wales and Powys in the east. Gwynedd was the most powerful of these kingdoms in the 6th and 7th centuries, under rulers such as Maelgwn Gwynedd (died 547) and Cadwallon ap Cadfan (died 634/5) who in alliance with Penda of Mercia was able to lead his armies as far as the Kingdom of Northumbria and control it for a period. Following Cadwallon's death in battle the following year, his successor Cadafael Cadomedd ap Cynfeddw also allied himself with Penda against Northumbria but thereafter Gwynedd, like the other Welsh kingdoms, was mainly engaged in defensive warfare against the growing power of Mercia.

Rise of Gwynedd: 700–1066

Powys as the easternmost of the major kingdoms of Wales came under the most pressure from the English in Cheshire, Shropshire and Herefordshire. This kingdom originally extended east into areas now in England, and its ancient capital, Pengwern, has been variously identified as modern Shrewsbury or a site north of Baschurch. These areas were lost to the kingdom of Mercia. The construction of the earthwork known as Offa's Dyke (usually attributed to Offa of Mercia in the 8th century) may have marked an agreed border.

For a single man to rule the whole country during this period was rare. This is often ascribed to the inheritance system practised in Wales. All sons received an equal share of their father's property (including illegitimate sons), resulting in the division of territories. However, the Welsh laws prescribe this system of division for land in general, not for kingdoms, where there is provision for an edling (or heir) to the kingdom to be chosen, usually by the king. Any son, legitimate or illegitimate, could be chosen as edling and there were frequently disappointed candidates prepared to challenge the chosen heir.

The first to rule a considerable part of Wales was Rhodri the Great, originally king of Gwynedd during the 9th century, who was able to extend his rule to Powys and Ceredigion. On his death his realms were divided between his sons. Rhodri's grandson, Hywel Dda (Hywel the Good), formed the kingdom of Deheubarth by joining smaller kingdoms in the southwest and had extended his rule to most of Wales by 942. He is traditionally associated with the codification of Welsh law at a council which he called at Whitland, the laws from then on usually being called the "Laws of Hywel". Hywel followed a policy of peace with the English. On his death in 949 his sons were able to keep control of Deheubarth but lost Gwynedd to the traditional dynasty of this kingdom.

Wales was now coming under increasing attack by Vikings, particularly Danish raids in the period between 950 and 1000. According to the chronicle Brut y Tywysogion, Godfrey Haroldson carried off two thousand captives from Anglesey in 987, and the king of Gwynedd, Maredudd ab Owain is reported to have redeemed many of his subjects from slavery by paying the Danes a large ransom.

Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was the only ruler to be able to unite the Welsh kingdoms under his rule. Originally king of Gwynedd, by 1055 he was ruler of almost all of Wales and had annexed parts of England around the border. However, he was defeated by Harold Godwinson in 1063 and killed by his own men. His territories were again divided into the traditional kingdoms.

High Middle Ages: 1000–1283
Gruffydd ap Llywelyn was the only ruler to be able to unite Wales under his rule. In 1055 Gruffydd ap Llywelyn killed his rival Gruffydd ap Rhydderch in battle and recaptured Deheubarth.

Originally king of Gwynedd, by 1057 he was the ruler of Wales and had annexed parts of England around the border. His territories were again divided into the traditional kingdoms.

Historian John Davies stated that Gruffydd was, "the only Welsh king ever to rule over the entire territory of Wales... Thus, from about 1057 until his death in 1063, the whole of Wales recognised the kingship of Gruffudd ap Llywelyn. For about seven brief years, Wales was one, under one ruler, a feat with neither precedent nor successor." During this time, between 1053 and 1063, Wales lacked any internal strife and was at peace.

Norman invasion
At the time of the Norman conquest of England in 1066, the dominant ruler in Wales was Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, who was king of Gwynedd and Powys. The initial Norman successes were in the south, where William Fitz Osbern overran Gwent before 1070. By 1074, the forces of the Earl of Shrewsbury were ravaging Deheubarth.

The killing of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn in 1075 led to civil war and gave the Normans an opportunity to seize lands in North Wales. In 1081 Gruffudd ap Cynan, who had just won the throne of Gwynedd from Trahaearn ap Caradog at the Battle of Mynydd Carn was enticed to a meeting with the Earl of Chester and Earl of Shrewsbury and promptly seized and imprisoned, leading to the seizure of much of Gwynedd by the Normans. In the south William the Conqueror advanced into Dyfed founding castles and mints at St David's and Cardiff. Rhys ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth was killed in 1093 in Brycheiniog, and his kingdom was seized and divided between various Norman lordships. The Norman conquest of Wales appeared virtually complete.In 1094, however, there was a general Welsh revolt against Norman rule, and gradually territories were won back. Gruffudd ap Cynan was eventually able to build a strong kingdom in Gwynedd. His son, Owain Gwynedd, allied with Gruffydd ap Rhys of Deheubarth won a crushing victory over the Normans at the Battle of Crug Mawr in 1136 and annexed Ceredigion. Owain followed his father on the throne of Gwynedd the following year and ruled until his death in 1170. He was able to profit from disunity in England, where King Stephen and Empress Matilda were engaged in a struggle for the throne, to extend the borders of Gwynedd further east than ever before.

Powys also had a strong ruler at this time in Madog ap Maredudd, but when his death in 1160 was quickly followed by the death of his heir, Llywelyn ap Madog, Powys was split into two parts and never subsequently reunited. In the south, Gruffydd ap Rhys was killed in 1137, but his four sons, who all ruled Deheubarth in turn, were eventually able to win back most of their grandfather's kingdom from the Normans. The youngest of the four, Rhys ap Gruffydd (Lord Rhys) ruled from 1155 to 1197. In 1171 Rhys met King Henry II and came to an agreement with him whereby Rhys had to pay a tribute but was confirmed in all his conquests and was later named Justiciar of South Wales. Rhys held a festival of poetry and song at his court at Cardigan over Christmas 1176 which is generally regarded as the first recorded Eisteddfod. Owain Gwynedd's death led to the splitting of Gwynedd between his sons, while Rhys made Deheubarth dominant in Wales for a time.

Dominance of Gwynedd and Edwardian conquest: 1216–1283

Out of the power struggle in Gwynedd eventually arose one of the greatest of Welsh leaders, Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, also known as Llywelyn Fawr (the Great), who was sole ruler of Gwynedd by 1200 and by his death in 1240 was effectively ruler of much of Wales. Llywelyn made his 'capital' and headquarters at Abergwyngregyn on the north coast, overlooking the Menai Strait. In 1200 he became King of Gwynedd and agreed to a treaty of peace with King John of England, marrying his illegitimate daughter Joan. In 1208, Llywelyn claimed the Kingdom of Powys after the arrest of Gwenwynwyn ap Owain by King John, who disapproved of his attacks on Marcher Lords of the South. Friendship broke down and John invaded parts of Gwynedd in 1211, taking Llywelyn's eldest son as hostage, and also forcing the surrender of territory in north-east Wales. Llywelyn's son, Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, and other hostages were used as security by the king. However the Welsh and Scots joined English rebel Barons in forcing John to sign the Magna Carta of 1215. The document therefore holds specific Welsh provisions. These included the return of lands and liberties to Welshmen if those lands and liberties had been taken by English (and vice versa) without a law abiding judgement of their peers. Also the immediate return of Gruffydd and the other Welsh hostages. Llywelyn went on to gain dominance over all Wales the following year.

After the death of John in 1216, Llywelyn and the new King Henry III agreed to the treaty of Worcester in 1218, which confirmed Llywelyn's right to Wales until his death, recognising him as Prince of Wales. His son Dafydd ap Llywelyn followed him as ruler of Gwynedd, but King Henry III of England would not allow him to inherit his father's position elsewhere in Wales. War broke out in 1241 and then again in 1245, and the issue was still in the balance when Dafydd died suddenly at Abergwyngregyn, without leaving an heir in early 1246. Llywelyn the Great's other son, Gruffudd had been killed trying to escape from the Tower of London in 1244. Gruffudd had left four sons, and a period of internal conflict between three of these ended in the rise to power of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (also known as Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf; Llywelyn, Our Last Leader).

The Treaty of Montgomery in 1267, signed with King Henry III of England, confirmed Llywelyn in control, directly or indirectly, over a large part of Wales. In November 1276, Edward I King of England declared war on Llywelyn II over a series of disputes. Realising his position was hopeless, Llywelyn II surrendered without battle. Edward negotiated a settlement, the Treaty of Aberconwy, which greatly restricted Llywelyn's authority. War broke out again when Llywelyn's brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd attacked Hawarden Castle on Palm Sunday 1282. On 11 December 1282, Llywelyn was lured into a meeting in Cilmeri in Builth Wells castle with unknown Marchers, where he was killed and his army subsequently destroyed. His brother Dafydd ap Gruffudd continued an increasingly forlorn resistance. He was captured in June 1283 and was hanged, drawn and quartered at Shrewsbury.

Following the deaths of Llywelyn and Dafydd, Edward ended Welsh independence, introducing the royal ordinance of the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284. The statute was a constitutional change annexing the Principality of Wales to the Realm of England.

Late middle ages: 1283–1542

After passing the Statute of Rhuddlan, which restricted Welsh law, King Edward's ring of impressive stone castles assisted the domination of Wales, and he crowned his conquest by giving the title Prince of Wales to his son and heir in 1301. Wales became, effectively, part of England, even though its people spoke a different language and had a different culture. English kings appointed a Council of Wales, sometimes presided over by the heir to the throne. This Council normally sat in Ludlow, now in England but at that time still part of the disputed border area in the Welsh Marches. Welsh literature, particularly poetry, continued to flourish however, with the lesser nobility now taking over from the princes as the patrons of the poets. Dafydd ap Gwilym, who flourished in the middle of the 14th century, is considered by many to be the greatest of the Welsh poets.

There were a number of rebellions including ones led by Madog ap Llywelyn in 1294–1295 and by Llywelyn Bren, Lord of Senghenydd, in 1316–1318. In the 1370s the last representative in the male line of the ruling house of Gwynedd, Owain Lawgoch, twice planned an invasion of Wales with French support. The English government responded to the threat by sending an agent to assassinate Owain in Poitou in 1378. In 1400, a Welsh nobleman, Owain Glyndŵr, revolted against Henry IV of England. Owain inflicted a number of defeats on the English forces and for a few years controlled most of Wales. Some of his achievements included holding the first Welsh Parliament at Machynlleth and plans for two universities. Eventually the king's forces were able to regain control of Wales and the rebellion died out, but Owain himself was never captured. His rebellion caused a great upsurge in Welsh identity and he was widely supported by Welsh people throughout the country.

As a response to Glyndŵr's rebellion, the English parliament passed the Penal Laws against the Welsh people in 1402. These prohibited the Welsh from carrying arms, from holding office and from dwelling in fortified towns. These prohibitions also applied to Englishmen who married Welsh women. These laws remained in force after the rebellion, although in practice they were gradually relaxed.

In the Wars of the Roses, which began in 1455, both sides made considerable use of Welsh troops. The main figures in Wales were the two Earls of Pembroke, the Yorkist William Herbert and the Lancastrian Jasper Tudor. A Council of Wales and the Marches was created to rule Wales, by the Lancastrian Henry VI for his son Edward of Westminster in 1457. The Council was created again in 1471 by Edward IV for his son Edward V.

In 1485 Jasper's nephew, Henry Tudor, landed in Wales with a small force to launch his bid for the throne of England. Henry was of Welsh descent, counting princes such as Rhys ap Gruffydd among his ancestors, and his cause gained much support in Wales. Henry defeated King Richard III of England at the Battle of Bosworth Field with an army containing many Welsh soldiers and gained the throne as Henry VII of England. Henry VII again created a Council of Wales and the Marches for his son Prince Arthur.

Under his son, Henry VIII of England, the Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542 were passed, integrating Wales with England in legal terms, abolishing the Welsh legal system, and banning the Welsh language from any official role or status, but it did for the first time define the Wales–England border and allowed members representing constituencies in Wales to be elected to the English Parliament. They also abolished any legal distinction between the Welsh and the English, thereby effectively ending the Penal Code although this was not formally repealed.

Early modern period
Following Henry VIII's break with Rome and the Pope, Wales for the most part followed England in accepting Anglicanism, although a number of Catholics were active in attempting to counteract this and produced some of the earliest books printed in Welsh. In 1588, William Morgan produced the first complete translation of the Welsh Bible. Morgan's Bible is one of the most significant books in the Welsh language, and its publication greatly increased the stature and scope of the Welsh language and literature.

Bishop Richard Davies and dissident Protestant cleric John Penry introduced Calvinist theology to Wales. Calvinism developed through the Puritan period, following the restoration of the monarchy under Charles II, and within Wales' Methodist movement. However, few copies of Calvin's works were available before the mid-19th century. In 1567, Davies, William Salesbury, and Thomas Huet completed the first modern translation of the New Testament and the first translation of the Book of Common Prayer (Y Llyfr Gweddi Gyffredin). In 1588, William Morgan completed a translation of the whole Bible. These translations were as important to the survival of the Welsh language and had the effect of conferring status on Welsh as a liturgical language and vehicle for worship. This had a significant role in its continued use as a means of everyday communication and as a literary language down to the present day despite the pressure of English. Wales was overwhelmingly Royalist in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms in the early 17th century, though there were some notable exceptions such as John Jones Maesygarnedd and the Puritan writer Morgan Llwyd. Wales was an important source of men for the armies of King Charles I of England, though no major battles took place in Wales. The Second English Civil War began when unpaid Parliamentarian troops in Pembrokeshire changed sides in early 1648. Colonel Thomas Horton defeated the Royalist rebels at the battle of St. Fagans in May and the rebel leaders surrendered to Cromwell on 11 July after the protracted two-month siege of Pembroke.

Education in Wales was at a very low ebb in this period, with the only education available being in English while the majority of the population spoke only Welsh. In 1731, Griffith Jones started circulating schools in Carmarthenshire, held in one location for about three months before moving (or "circulating") to another location. The language of instruction in these schools was Welsh. By Griffith Jones' death, in 1761, it is estimated that up to 250,000 people had learnt to read in schools throughout Wales.The 18th century also saw the Welsh Methodist revival, led by Daniel Rowland, Howell Harris and William Williams Pantycelyn.

Nonconformity was a significant influence in Wales from the eighteenth to the twentieth centuries. The Welsh Methodist revival of the 18th century was one of the most significant religious and social movements in the history of Wales. The revival began within the Church of England in Wales and at the beginning remained as a group within it, but the Welsh revival differed from the Methodist revival in England in that its theology was Calvinist rather than Arminian. In the early 19th century the Welsh Methodists broke away from the Anglican church and established their own denomination, now the Presbyterian Church of Wales. This also led to the strengthening of other nonconformist denominations, and by the middle of the 19th century, Wales was largely Nonconformist in religion. This had considerable implications for the Welsh language as it was the main language of the nonconformist churches in Wales. The Sunday schools which became an important feature of Welsh life made a large part of the population literate in Welsh, which was important for the survival of the language as it was not taught in the schools. Welsh Methodists gradually built up their own networks, structures, and even meeting houses (or chapels), which led eventually to the secession of 1811 and the formal establishment of the Calvinistic Methodist Presbyterian Church of Wales in 1823. The Welsh Methodist revival also had an influence on the older nonconformist churches, or dissenters the Baptists and the Congregationalists who in turn also experienced growth and renewal. As a result, by the middle of the nineteenth century, Wales was predominantly a nonconformist country.

The end of the 18th century saw the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, and the presence of iron ore, limestone and large coal deposits in south-east Wales meant that this area soon saw the establishment of ironworks and coal mines, notably the Cyfarthfa Ironworks and the Dowlais Ironworks at Merthyr Tydfil.

1800–1914
The modern history of Wales starts in the 19th century when South Wales became heavily industrialised with ironworks; this, along with the spread of coal mining to the Cynon and Rhondda valleys from the 1840s, led to an increase in population. The social effects of industrialisation resulted in armed uprisings against the mainly English owners. Socialism developed in South Wales in the latter part of the century, accompanied by the increasing politicisation of religious Nonconformism. The first Labour MP, Keir Hardie, was elected as a junior member for the Welsh constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare in 1900.

The population of Wales doubled to over one million between 1801 and 1851 and doubled again, reaching 2,421,000 by 1911. Most of the increase came in the coal mining districts especially Glamorganshire. Part of this increase can be attributed to the demographic transition seen in most industrialising countries during the Industrial Revolution, as death rates dropped and birth rates remained steady. However, there was also a large-scale migration of people into Wales during the industrial revolution. The English were the most numerous group, but there were also considerable numbers of Irish and smaller numbers of Italians, migrating to South Wales, as well as Russian and Polish Jews.

The first decade of the 20th century was the period of the coal boom in South Wales when population growth exceeded 20 per cent. Demographic changes affected the language frontier; the proportion of Welsh speakers in the Rhondda valley fell from 64 per cent in 1901 to 55 per cent ten years later, and similar trends were evident elsewhere in South Wales.

The 1904–1905 Welsh Revival was the largest full-scale Christian revival of Wales of the 20th century. It is believed that at least 100,000 people became Christians during the 1904–1905 revival, but despite this it did not put a stop to the gradual decline of Christianity in Wales, only holding it back slightly.

Kenneth O. Morgan argues that the 1850-1914 era: "was a story of growing political democracy with the hegemony of the Liberals in national and local government, of an increasingly thriving economy in the valleys of South Wales, the world's dominant coal-exporting area with massive ports at Cardiff and Barry, increasingly buoyant literature and a revival in the eisteddfod, and of much vitality in the nonconformist chapels especially after the short-lived impetus from the ‘great revival’, Y Diwygiad Mawr, of 1904–5. Overall, there was a pervasive sense of strong national identity, with a national museum, a national library and a national university as its vanguard."

1914–1945
The world wars and interwar period were hard times for Wales, in terms of the faltering economy of antiwar losses. Men eagerly volunteered for war service. The First World War and its aftermath had severe impact on Wales in terms of economic impact as well as war-time casualties. The result was significant social deprivation. The Labour Party replaced the Liberals as the dominant party in Wales, particularly in the industrial valleys of South Wales. Plaid Cymru was formed in 1925, but initially, its growth was slow and it gained few votes at parliamentary elections.

Post war to present
In the immediate period after the Second World War there was a strong revival in economic growth, accompanied by greater personal material well-being for the poorer elements of society as a result of the new systems of social welfare. Support for political nationalism strengthened with some success for Plaid Cymru and increasing pressure for Welsh devolution. Personal incomes rose during the post war period; In 1962, for example, the average weekly wage of male manual workers stood at 315s 8d, compared with the UK average of 312s 10d. According to one study, “Only in the Midlands and the south of England were male manual wages higher than in Wales.” Nevertheless, the coal industry steadily declined after 1945. By the early 1990s, there was only one deep pit still working in Wales. There was a similar catastrophic decline in the steel industry (the steel crisis), and the Welsh economy, like that of other developed societies, tilted increasingly towards the expanding service sector. Meanwhile growing calls to recognise the Welsh language at an institutional level led to the passing of the Welsh Language Act 1967. The Welsh language was thus formally recognised as a legitimate language in legal and administrative contexts for the first time in English law. The proportion of the Welsh population able to speak the Welsh language was declining, falling from just under 50% in 1901 to 43.5% in 1911 and reaching a low of 18.9% in 1981. It has risen slightly since.

In a referendum in 1979, Wales voted against devolution for Wales by an 80 per cent majority. In 1997, a second referendum on the same issue secured a very narrow majority (50.3 per cent). The National Assembly for Wales (Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru) was set up in 1999 (under the Government of Wales Act 1998) with the power to determine how Wales' central government budget is spent and administered, although the UK Parliament reserved the right to set limits on its powers.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 (c 32) of the UK Parliament reformed the National Assembly for Wales and allowed further powers to be granted to it more easily. The Act created a system of government with a separate executive drawn from and accountable to the legislature. Following a successful referendum in 2011 on extending the law-making powers of the National Assembly, it was then able to make laws, known as Acts of the Assembly, on all matters in devolved subject areas, without needing the UK Parliament's agreement and in May 2020, it was renamed "Senedd Cymru" or "the Welsh Parliament", commonly known as the "Senedd" in both English and Welsh.

Historiography
Until recently, says Martin Johnes:
 * the historiography of modern Wales was rather narrow. Its domain was the fortunes of the Liberals and Labour, the impact of trade unions and protest, and the cultural realms of nonconformity and the Welsh language. This was not surprising—all emergent fields start with the big topics and the big questions—but it did give much of Welsh academic history a rather particular flavour. It was institutional and male, and yet still concerned with fields of enquiry that lay outside the confines of the British establishment.

Religion

 * Chambers, Paul, and Andrew Thompson. "Coming to terms with the past: religion and identity in Wales." Social compass 52.3 (2005): 337–352.
 * Davies, Ebnezer Thomas. Religion in the Industrial Revolution of South Wales (U. of Wales Press, 1965)
 * Jenkins, Geraint H. Literature, religion and society in Wales, 1660-1730 (University of Wales Press, 1978)
 * Morgan, Derec Llwyd. The Great Awakening in Wales (Epworth Press, 1988)
 * Walker, R. B. "The Growth of Wesleyan Methodism in Victorian England and Wales." The Journal of Ecclesiastical History 24.03 (1973): 267–284.
 * Williams, Glanmor. The Welsh Church from Conquest to Reformation (University of Wales Press, 1976)
 * Williams, Glanmor. The Welsh Church from Reformation to Disestablishment: 1603–1920 (University of Wales Press, 2007)
 * Williams, Glanmor, ed. Welsh reformation essays (University of Wales Press, 1967)
 * Yalden, Peter. "Association, Community and the Origins of Secularisation: English and Welsh Nonconformity, c. 1850–1930." The Journal of Ecclesiastical History 55.02 (2004): 293–324.
 * Yalden, Peter. "Association, Community and the Origins of Secularisation: English and Welsh Nonconformity, c. 1850–1930." The Journal of Ecclesiastical History 55.02 (2004): 293–324.

Historiography

 * Evans, Neil. Writing a Small Nation's Past: Wales in Comparative Perspective, 1850–1950 (Routledge, 2016).
 * Withey, Alun. "Unhealthy Neglect? The Medicine and Medical Historiography of Early Modern Wales." Social history of medicine 21.1 (2008): 163–174. online
 * Withey, Alun. "Unhealthy Neglect? The Medicine and Medical Historiography of Early Modern Wales." Social history of medicine 21.1 (2008): 163–174. online

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title: History of Wales