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Catch-22

Catch-22 is a satirical war novel by American author Joseph Heller. It is his debut novel. He began writing it in 1953; the novel was first published in 1961. Often cited as one of the most significant novels of the twentieth century, it uses a distinctive non-chronological third-person omniscient narration, describing events from the points of view of different characters. The separate storylines are out of sequence so the timeline develops along with the plot.

The novel is set during World War II, from 1942 to 1944. It mainly follows the life of antihero Captain John Yossarian, a U.S. Army Air Forces B-25 bombardier. Most of the events in the book occur while the fictional 256th US Army Air Squadron is based on the island of Pianosa, in the Mediterranean Sea west of the Italian mainland, although it also includes episodes from basic training at Lowry Field in Colorado and Air Corps training at Santa Ana Army Air Base in California. The novel examines the absurdity of war and military life through the experiences of Yossarian and his cohorts, who attempt to maintain their sanity while fulfilling their service requirements so that they may return home.

The book was made into a film adaptation in 1970, directed by Mike Nichols, and a Hulu miniseries in 2019, produced by George Clooney. In 1994, Heller published a sequel to the novel entitled Closing Time.

Synopsis
The main character, Yossarian, is introduced in the setting of a military hospital where he has retreated under the guise of a chronic liver condition to avoid flying further combat missions since he has grown disillusioned with the war effort and distrustful of his commanding officers. Throughout the novel, the commanding officers show violently extreme disregard for the lives of their troops and are all too willing to sacrifice their men to further their own ends. Especially, Colonel Cathcart volunteers his unit to fly dangerous missions and forces his men to fly more combat missions than any other unit, constantly raising the number of missions necessary to complete a tour of duty so that the men can never return home, because he wishes to be seen as brave by his superiors even though he has only ever flown a single combat mission. After flying forty-four combat missions, Yossarian has become traumatized by aerial combat and witnessing the deaths of his friends; he is terrified of being killed in action during each combat mission, but still succeeds in flying twenty-seven more missions over the course of the novel, totaling seventy-one by the end. As the novel progresses, Yossarian's moral character and courage emerge more clearly, in contrast to his seeming selfishness and cowardice when first introduced. He is shown to be an honest, loyal, and able flyer who has been pushed to desperation by the selfishness and cowardice of the authorities responsible for him, especially doctors and military leaders.

The development of the novel can be split into segments:

 * The first (chapters 1–11) broadly follows the story fragmented between characters, but in a single chronological time in 1944.
 * The second (chapters 12–20) flashes back to focus primarily on the "Great Big Siege of Bologna" before once again jumping to the third part.
 * The third is the chronological present of 1944 (chapter 21–25).
 * The fourth (chapters 26–28) flashes back to the origins and growth of Milo's syndicate.
 * The fifth part (chapter 28–32) returning again to the narrative present and maintaining the tone of the previous four.
 * The sixth and final part (chapter 32 and on) remains in the story's present, but takes a much darker turn and emphasizes the darkness and brutality of war and life in general.

For most of the book, the reader is cushioned from directly experiencing the full horror of war, but the existence of these horrors is implied by the extreme trauma and fear that afflicts the airmen. In the final section, these events are laid bare. The horror begins with a pointless attack on the undefended Italian mountain village, with the succeeding chapters incorporating depictions of despair (Doc Daneeka and the chaplain), disappearance in combat (Orr and Clevinger), disappearance caused by the army (Dunbar) and death of most of Yossarian's friends (Nately, McWatt, Kid Sampson, Dobbs, Chief White Halfoat and Hungry Joe), culminating in the horrors of Chapter 39, in particular Aarfy's rape and murder of the innocent young woman Michaela. In Chapter 41 the full details of the death of Snowden are finally revealed.

Nevertheless, the novel ends on an upbeat note with Yossarian learning of Orr's miraculous escape to Sweden and Yossarian's pledge to follow him there.

Style
Many events in the book are repeatedly described from differing points of view, so the reader learns more about each event from each iteration, with the new information often completing a joke, the setup of which was told several chapters previously. The narrative's events are out of sequence, but events are referred to as if the reader is already familiar with them so that the reader must ultimately piece together a timeline of events. Specific words, phrases, and questions are also repeated frequently, generally to comic effect.

Much of Heller's prose in Catch-22 is circular and repetitive, exemplifying in its form the structure of a Catch-22. Circular reasoning is widely used by some characters to justify their actions and opinions. Heller revels in paradox. For example: "The Texan turned out to be good-natured, generous and likable. In three days no one could stand him," and "The case against Clevinger was open and shut. The only thing missing was something to charge him with." This atmosphere of apparently logical irrationality pervades the book. This style is also recognizable regarding how exactly Clevinger's trial would be executed by Lieutenant Scheisskopf: "As a member of the Action Board, Lieutenant Scheisskopf was one of the judges who would weigh the merits of the case against Clevenger as presented by the prosecutor. Lieutenant Scheisskopf was also the prosecutor. Clevinger had an officer defending him. The officer defending him was Lieutenant Scheisskopf."

While a few characters are most prominent, especially Yossarian and the Chaplain, the majority of named characters are described in detail with fleshed out or multidimensional personas to the extent that there are few if any "minor characters". There are no traditional heroes in the novel, reflecting the underlying commentary that war has no heroes, only victims.

Although its nonchronological structure may at first seem random, Catch-22 is highly structured. It is founded on a structure of free association; ideas run into one another through seemingly random connections. For example, Chapter 1, titled "The Texan", ends with "everybody but the CID man, who had caught a cold from the fighter captain and come down with pneumonia." Chapter 2, titled "Clevinger", begins with "In a way, the CID man was pretty lucky because outside the hospital the war was still going on." The CID man connects the two chapters like a free association bridge and eventually Chapter 2 flows from the CID man to Clevinger through more free association links.

As Heller utilizes an episodic structure for most of the novel, many chapters may appear to be a disjointed series of events with little or no connection with each other. However, individual chapters often deal with thematically unique ideas, such as Chapter 11 (“Captain Black”) which parodies Red Scare-era McCarthyism, and Chapter 18 (“The Soldier Who Saw Everything Twice”) which explores theological concepts of mortality.

Paradox
Yossarian comes to fear his commanding officers more than he fears the Germans attempting to shoot him down and he feels that "they" are "out to get him." The reason Yossarian fears his commanders more than the enemy is that as he flies more missions, Colonel Cathcart increases the number of required combat missions before a soldier may return home; he reaches the magic number only to have it retroactively raised. He comes to despair of ever getting home and is greatly relieved when he is sent to the hospital for a condition that is almost jaundice. In Yossarian's words:

"The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he's on, and that includes Colonel Cathcart. And don't you forget that, because the longer you remember it, the longer you might live."

Tragedy and farce
Much of the farce in the novel is fueled by intentional and unintentional miscommunication, occasionally leading to tragic consequences. For example, Cathcart's desire to become a general is thwarted by ex-P.F.C. Wintergreen sabotaging his correspondence. Major Major's and Yossarian's mis-censoring of correspondence is blamed on the Chaplain, who is threatened with imprisonment as a result.

Theodicy
Yossarian questions the idea that God is all-powerful, all-good, and all knowing. The narrator seems to believe that God, if not evil, is incompetent. In chapter 18, Yossarian states that he "believes in the God he doesn't believe in", this version of God having created Hitler, the war, and all the failures of human life and society, as exemplified in the following passage:"'And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways', Yossarian continued, hurtling over her objections. 'There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about – a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did he ever create pain? … Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! [to warn us of danger] Why couldn't He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead. Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn't He? … What a colossal, immortal blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. …'"Later Heller writes of Yossarian wandering through a war-torn Italian city (Chapter 39): "'Yossarian quickened his pace to get away, almost ran. The night was filled with horrors, and he thought he knew how Christ must have felt as he walked through the world, like a psychiatrist through a ward full of nuts, like a victim through a prison full of thieves. What a welcome sight a leper must have been. At the next corner a man was beating a small boy brutally in the midst of an immobile crowd of adult spectators who made no effort to intervene ...'"

Military-industrial complex
While the military's enemies are Germans, none appear in the story as enemy combatants. This ironic situation is epitomized in the single appearance of German personnel in the novel, who act as pilots employed by the squadron's mess officer, Milo Minderbinder, to bomb the American encampment on Pianosa. This predicament indicates a tension between traditional motives for violence and the modern economic machine, which seems to generate violence simply as another means to profit, quite independent of geographical or ideological constraints which creates a military–industrial complex. Heller emphasizes the danger of profit-seeking by portraying Milo without "evil intent". Milo's actions are portrayed as the result of greed, not malice.

Characters
The novel has over 50 named characters, many of whom have titular chapters dedicated to expanding on their personalities or motivations.

Influences
Heller wanted to be a writer from an early age. His experiences as a bombardier during World War II inspired Catch-22; Heller later said that he "never had a bad officer". In a 1977 essay on Catch-22, Heller stated that the "antiwar and antigovernment feelings in the book" were a product of the Korean War and the 1950s rather than World War II itself. Heller's criticisms are not intended for World War II but for the Cold War and McCarthyism.

The influence of the 1950s on Catch-22 is evident through Heller's extensive use of anachronism. Though the novel is ostensibly set in World War II, Heller intentionally included anachronisms like loyalty oaths and computers (IBM machines) to situate the novel in the context of the 1950s. Many of the characters are based on or connected to individuals from the 1950s:
 * Milo Minderbinder's maxim "What's good for M&M Enterprises is good for the country" alludes to the former president of General Motors Charles Erwin Wilson's 1953 statement before the Senate: "What's good for General Motors is good for the country."
 * The question of "Who promoted Major Major?" alludes to Joseph McCarthy's questioning of the promotion of Major Peress, an army dentist who refused to sign loyalty oaths.

Czech writer Arnošt Lustig recounts in his book 3x18 that Joseph Heller told him that he would never have written Catch-22 had he not first read The Good Soldier Švejk by Jaroslav Hašek.

In 1998, some critics raised the possibility that Heller's book had questionable similarities to Louis Falstein's 1950 novel, Face of a Hero. Falstein never raised the issue between Catch-22 publication and his death in 1995 and Heller claimed never to have been aware of the obscure novel. Heller said that the novel had been influenced by Céline, Waugh and Nabokov. Many of the similarities have been stated to be attributable to the authors' experiences, both having served as U.S. Army Air Forces aircrew in Italy in World War II. However, their themes and styles are different.

Concept
A "Catch-22" is "a problem for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem or by a rule." For example, losing something is typically a conventional problem; to solve it, one looks for the lost item until one finds it. But if the thing lost is one's glasses, one cannot see to look for them – a Catch-22. The term "Catch-22" is also used more broadly to mean a tricky problem or a no-win or absurd situation.

In the book, Catch-22 is a military rule typifying bureaucratic operation and reasoning. The rule is not stated in a precise form, but the principal example in the book fits the definition above: If one is crazy, one does not have to fly missions; and one must be crazy to fly. But one has to apply to be excused, and applying demonstrates that one is not crazy. As a result, one must continue flying, either not applying to be excused, or applying and being refused. The narrator explains:

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to, but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle. (p. 56, ch. 5)"

Other forms of Catch-22 are invoked throughout the novel to justify various bureaucratic actions. At one point, victims of harassment by military police quote the MPs' explanation of one of Catch-22's provisions: "Catch-22 states that agents enforcing Catch-22 need not prove that Catch-22 actually contains whatever provision the accused violator is accused of violating." Another character explains: "Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."

Yossarian comes to realize that Catch-22 does not actually exist, but because the powers that be claim it does, and the world believes it does, it nevertheless has potent effects. Indeed, because it does not exist, there is no way it can be repealed, undone, overthrown, or denounced. The combination of force with specious and spurious legalistic justification is one of the book's primary motifs.

The motif of bureaucratic absurdity is further explored in 1994's Closing Time, Heller's sequel to Catch-22. This darker, slower-paced, apocalyptic novel explores the pre- and post-war lives of some of the major characters in Catch-22, with particular emphasis on the relationship between Yossarian and tail gunner Sammy Singer.

Literary allusions
Catch-22 contains allusions to many works of literature. Howard Jacobson, in his 2004 introduction to the Vintage Classics publication, wrote that the novel was "positioned teasingly ... between literature and literature's opposites – between Shakespeare and Rabelais and Dickens and Dostoevsky and Gogol and Céline and the Absurdists and of course Kafka on the one hand, and on the other vaudeville and slapstick and Bilko and Abbott and Costello and Tom and Jerry and the Goons (if Heller had ever heard of the Goons)." One critic argues that it is Kafka's influence that can be seen most strongly in the novel: "Like Kafka's heroes, Yossarian is riddled with anxiety and caught in an inexorable nightmare – in his case created by Colonel Cathcart and the inevitability of his raising the number of missions he has to fly."

Historical context
The idea for Catch-22 was based on Joseph Heller's personal experience in World War II. The feelings that Yossarian and the other bomber crew felt were taken directly from problems he suffered while on duty. Heller flew 60 bombing missions from May to October in 1944. Heller was able to make it out of the war, but it took until 1953 before he could start writing about it. For this reason, the book contains references to post World War II phenomena like IBM computers and loyalty oaths. The war experience turned Heller into a "tortured, funny, deeply peculiar human being".

After publication in 1961, Catch-22 became very popular among teenagers at the time. Catch-22 seemed to embody the feelings that young people had toward the Vietnam War. A common joke was that every student who went off to college at the time took along a copy of Catch-22. The popularity of the book created a cult following, which led to more than eight million copies being sold in the United States. On October 26, 1986, professor and author John W. Aldridge wrote a piece in The New York Times celebrating the 25th anniversary of the publishing of Catch-22. He commented that Heller's book presaged the chaos in the world that was to come:

"The comic fable that ends in horror has become more and more clearly a reflection of the altogether uncomic and horrifying realities of the world in which we live and hope to survive."

Title
The title refers to a fictional bureaucratic stipulation that embodies illogical and immoral reasoning. The opening chapter of the novel was first published, in 1955, by New World Writing as Catch-18, but Heller's agent, Candida Donadio, asked him to change the title, to avert its confusion with Leon Uris's recently published Mila 18. A reference was made to this nomenclatural history in the 2023 Netflix show Beef. The implications in Judaism of the number 18 – which refers to chai, meaning "alive", in Gematria – were relevant to Heller's somewhat greater emphasis on Jewish themes in early drafts of his novel. Heller's daughter Erica wrote that the Simon & Schuster editor, Robert Gottlieb, was the person who came up with the number 22, and Gottlieb himself stated that he did in the documentary Turn Every Page: The Adventures of Robert Caro and Robert Gottlieb.

Parallels among a number of character exchanges in the novel suggested the doubled-one title of Catch-11, but the 1960 release of Ocean's Eleven eliminated that. Catch-17 was rejected so as not to be confused with the World War II film Stalag 17, as was Catch-14, apparently because the publisher did not believe that 14 was a "funny number". Eventually, the title came to be Catch-22, which, like 11, has a duplicated digit, with the 2 also referring to a number of déjà vu-like events common in the novel.

Publication and movie rights
Catch-22 was sold to Simon & Schuster, where it had been championed by editor Robert Gottlieb, who, along with Nina Bourne, edited and oversaw the marketing of the book. Gottlieb was a strong advocate for the book along with Peter Schwed and Justin Kaplan. Henry Simon, a vice president at Simon & Schuster, found it repetitive and offensive. The editorial board decided to contract the book when Heller agreed to revisions; he signed for US$1500 1961.

Officially published on October 10, 1961, the hardcover sold for $5.95. The book was not a best-seller in hardcover in the United States. Though twelve thousand copies were sold by Thanksgiving, it never entered The New York Times Best Seller list. It received good notices and was nominated for the National Book Award in March 1962, though Walker Percy's The Moviegoer won. Catch-22 went through four printings in hardcover but sold well on only the East Coast. The book never established itself nationally until it was published in paperback for 75 cents.

Upon publication in Great Britain, the book became the No. 1 best-seller. Don Fine of Dell Paperbacks bought the paperback reprint rights to Catch-22 for $32,000. Between the paperback's release in September 1962 and April 1963, it sold 1.1 million copies.

In August 1962, Donadio brokered the sale of movie rights to Columbia Pictures for $100,000 plus $25,000 to write a treatment or a first draft of a screenplay.

Reception
The initial reviews of the book ranged from very positive to very negative. There were positive reviews from The Nation ("the best novel to come out in years"), the New York Herald Tribune ("A wild, moving, shocking, hilarious, raging, exhilarating, giant roller-coaster of a book") and The New York Times ("A dazzling performance that will outrage nearly as many readers as it delights"). On the other hand, The New Yorker disliked it ("doesn't even seem to be written; instead, it gives the impression of having been shouted onto paper", "what remains is a debris of sour jokes"), and a second review from the New York Times also disliked it ("repetitive and monotonous. Or one can say that it is too short because none of its many interesting characters and actions is given enough play to become a controlling interest"). One commentator of Catch-22 recognized that "many early audiences liked the book for just the same reasons that caused others to hate it". The book eventually gained a cult following, especially among teenagers and college students. Heller later remarked that in 1962, after appearing on the Today show he went out drinking with the host at the time, John Chancellor, who handed him stickers that Chancellor had got privately printed reading "YOSSARIAN LIVES". Heller also said that Chancellor had been secretly putting them on the walls of the corridors and executive bathrooms in the NBC building.

Although the novel won no awards upon release, it has remained in print and is seen as one of the most significant American novels of the 20th century. Scholar and fellow World War II veteran Hugh Nibley said it was the most accurate book he ever read about the military. over ten million copies have been sold.

Although he continued writing, including a sequel novel Closing Time, Heller's later works were inevitably overshadowed by the success of Catch-22. When asked by critics why he had never managed to write another novel as good as his first, Heller would retort with a smile, "Who has?"

Challenges
Catch-22 has landed on the list of the American Library Association's banned and challenged classics.

In 1972, the school board in Strongsville, Ohio, removed Catch-22, as well as two books by Kurt Vonnegut, from school libraries and the curriculum. Five families sued the school board. The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals rejected the claim, stating that school boards had the right to control the curriculum. The decision was overturned on appeal in 1976. The court wrote, "A library is a storehouse of knowledge. Here we are concerned with the right of students to receive information which they and their teachers desire them to have." In 1982, the U.S. Supreme Court employed a similar rationale in its decision in Island Trees School District v. Pico on the removal of library books.

Because the book refers to women as "whores", it was challenged at the Dallas, Texas, Independent School District (1974) and Snoqualmie, Washington (1979).

Rankings

 * The Modern Library ranked Catch-22 as the 7th (by review panel) and 12th (by public) greatest English-language novel of the 20th century.
 * The Radcliffe Publishing Course ranked Catch-22 as number 15 of the 20th century's top 100 novels.
 * The Observer listed Catch-22 as one of the 100 greatest novels of all time.
 * Time puts Catch-22 in the top 100 English-language modern novels (1923 onwards, unranked).
 * The Big Read by the BBC ranked Catch-22 as number 11 on a web poll of the UK's best-loved book.

Adaptations

 * Catch-22 was adapted into a feature film of the same name in 1970, directed by Mike Nichols. Alan Arkin portrayed Capt. Yossarian, with an ensemble cast including Art Garfunkel as Nately, Jon Voight as Milo Minderbinder, Orson Welles as General Dreedle, and Martin Balsam as Colonel Cathcart, amongst many others.
 * A pilot for a comedy series based upon Catch-22 was made and televised in 1973, with Richard Dreyfuss in the starring role of Yossarian.
 * Catch-22 play: Aquila Theatre produced a stage adaptation of Catch-22, based on Heller's 1971 stage adaptation. It was directed by Peter Meineck. This production toured the US in 2007/8 with a Bexhill on Sea production in the fall of 2008.
 * A six-episode miniseries produced by, and co-starring, George Clooney was picked up by Hulu for a straight-to-series order. It streamed on May 17, 2019. It was also broadcast by Channel 4 in the United Kingdom. Christopher Abbott portrayed Yossarian, with Kyle Chandler as Cathcart, Hugh Laurie as Major —— de Coverley, and Clooney as Lt. Scheisskopf.

Selected releases
This list covers the first and most recent printed publications by the original publisher Simon & Schuster as well as all other formats. Other print publishers include Dell, Corgi, Vintage, Black Swan, Éditions Grasset, and Wahlström & Widstrand.

The original manuscript is held by Brandeis University.

title: Catch-22


text:
User talk:Belltower

(http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?action=history&id=U-boat) I had accidentally deleted the word after 10,500, got called off to real life business, and by the time I came back to fix my error, it was already done. I'm falling more and more in love with Wikipedia by the second. ;) User:Colin dellow

Main namespace cleanup
Heya, I've moved [Wikipedians/Belltower] to User:Belltower/old. There's some edit history, so perhaps you want to keep it. Otherwise just delete it (or ask an admin to do so). --fvw *  20:54, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)

 * I've history merged that old edit history into your main user page. Hope you don't mind. Graham 87 14:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Please Help
There is an unholy mess in the Maryland article regarding a section entitled "cultural identity." Most of the editors agree that the state is a Northern one, and many facts have been posted and adequately cited to prove that fact. A Confederate sympathizer, however, is constantly going onto the article, removing cited information, and replacing it with unsourced "statistics" that steer Maryland into the Southern category. Please read the whole debate, weigh in, and please, PLEASE, help. History21

Duiki

 * Hey we are making a Duke Community Wiki at http://www.duiki.com if you want to help out.

Wikipedia meetup
As someone who may live or work near Washington D.C., you may be interested - if you've not heard already - about the meetup scheduled for Saturday, May 17th, at Union Station. For details, please see Meetup/DC 4.

You are receiving this automated message because your userpage appears in Category:Wikipedians in Maryland. Melon ‑ Bot  ( STOP! )  18:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

D.C. Meetup, Saturday, June 6, 2009
The 7th DC Meetup dinner will be held this Saturday, June 6th, starting at 5 p.m. The event will be at Bertucci's, near George Washington University and the Foggy Bottom metro station. It will follow the Apps for Democracy open source event at GWU. For details or to RSVP if you haven't already, see Meetup/DC 7. (You have received this announcement because your user page indicates that you live in Maryland, Virginia, or DC.) Delivered by The  Helpful  Bot   at 19:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC) to report errors, please leave a note here.

Volunteer opportunity in Bethesda, Thursday, July 16
The Wikimedia Foundation will be conducting an all-day Academy at the National Institutes of Health, in Bethesda, Maryland, on Thursday, July 16. The team that will be teaching at the Academy, a mix of paid staff and volunteers, is looking for four more volunteers to be teaching assistants, providing one-to-one assistance in workshops whenever a workshop participant has a problem following the instructional directions. (We currently have two editors signed up as teaching assistants, and are looking for a total of six.)

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D.C. Meetup, Saturday, September 26
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Webinar / edit-a-thon at the National Library of Medicine (NLM)
Join us at the NLM next week, either in person or online, to learn about NLM resources, hear some great speakers, and do some editing!

On Tuesday, 28 May there will be a community Wikipedia meeting at the United States National Library of Medicine in Bethesda, Maryland - with a second on Thursday, 30 May for those who can't make it on Tuesday. You can participate either in-person, or via an online webinar. If you attend in person, USB sticks (but not external drives) are ok to use.

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Have time on Saturday?
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Are you free on Wednesday? Join us at the Wikimedia DC WikiSalon!
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The WikiSalon an informal gathering of Wikimedia enthusiasts, who come together to discuss the Wikimedia projects and collaboratively edit. There's no set agenda, and guests are welcome to recommend articles for the group to edit or edit on their own. Light refreshments will be provided.

We look forward to seeing you there! Kirill [talk] 11:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Meet up with local Wikipedians on September 14!
Are you free on Saturday, September 14? If so, please join Wikimedia DC and local Wikipedians for a social meetup and dinner at Vapiano (near Farragut North/Farragut West) at 6:00 PM. All Wikipedia/Wikimedia and free knowledge/culture enthusiasts, regardless of editing experience, are welcome to attend! All ages are welcome!

For more information and to sign up, please visit the meetup page. Hope to see you there! Kirill [talk] 19:06, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you free next Thursday? Join us at the Wikimedia DC WikiSalon!
Wikimedia DC invites you to join us for our next WikiSalon, which will be held from 7 to 9 PM on Thursday, September 5 at our K Street office.

The WikiSalon is an informal gathering of Wikimedia enthusiasts, who come together to discuss the Wikimedia projects and collaboratively edit. There's no set agenda, and guests are welcome to recommend articles for the group to edit or edit on their own. Light refreshments will be provided.

We look forward to seeing you there! Kirill [talk] 15:06, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you free next Thursday? Join us at the Wikimedia DC WikiSalon!
Wikimedia DC invites you to join us for our next WikiSalon, which will be held from 7 to 9 PM on Thursday, September 26 at our K Street office.

The WikiSalon is an informal gathering of Wikimedia enthusiasts, who come together to discuss the Wikimedia projects and collaboratively edit. There's no set agenda, and guests are welcome to recommend articles for the group to edit or edit on their own. Light refreshments will be provided.

We look forward to seeing you there! Kirill [talk] 06:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you free on Sunday? Join us for a special Wikimedia DC WikiSalon!
Wikimedia DC invites you to join us for a special WikiSalon at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Memorial Library's Digital Commons Center. We will gather at 3 PM on Sunday, October 13, 2013 to discuss an important topic: what can Wikipedia and the DC area do to help each other? We hope to hear your thoughts and suggestions; if you have an idea you would like to pursue, please let us know and we will help!

Following the WikiSalon, we will be having dinner at a nearby restaurant, Ella's Wood Fired Pizza.

If you're interested in attending, please sign up at the event page. We look forward to seeing you there! Kirill [talk] 02:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Meetups coming up in DC!
Hey!

You are invited to two upcoming events in DC:

 * Meetup at Capitol City Brewery on Saturday, January 25 at 6 PM. Please join us for dinner, drinks, socializing, and discussing Wikimedia DC activities and events. All are welcome! RSVP on the linked page or through Meetup.
 * Art and Feminism Edit-a-Thon on Saturday, February 1 from Noon – 5 PM. Join us as we improve articles on notable women in history! All are welcome, regardless of age or level of editing experience. RSVP on the linked page or through Meetup.

I hope to see you there!

(Note: If you do not wish to receive talk page messages for DC meetups, you are welcome to remove your username from this page.)

Harej (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Coming up in February!
Hello there!

Our February WikiSalon is coming up on Sunday, February 23. Join us at our gathering of Wikipedia enthusiasts at the Kogod Courtyard of the National Portrait Gallery with an optional dinner after. As usual, all are welcome. Care to join us?

Also, if you are available, there is an American Art Edit-a-thon being held at the Smithsonian American Art Museum with Professor Andrew Lih's COMM-535 class at American University on Tuesday, February 11 from 2 to 5 PM. Please RSVP on the linked page if you are interested.

If you have any ideas or preferences for meetups, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Meetup/DC.

Thank you, and hope to see you at our upcoming events! Harej (talk) 18:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

DC Meetups in March
 Happy March!

Though we have a massive snowstorm coming up, spring is just around the corner! Personally, I am looking forward to warmer weather.

Wikimedia DC is looking forward to a spring full of cool and exciting activities. In March, we have coming up:

 * Evening WikiSalon on Wednesday, March 12 from 7 PM – 9 PM. Meet up with Wikipedians for coffee at the Cove co-working space in Dupont Circle! If you cannot make it in the evening, join us at our...
 * March Meetup on Sunday, March 23 from 3 PM – 6 PM. Our monthly weekend meetup, same place as last month. Meet really cool and interesting people!
 * Women in the Arts 2014 meetup and edit-a-thon on Sunday, March 30 from 10 AM – 5 PM. Our second annual Women in the Arts edit-a-thon, held at the National Museum of Women in the Arts. Free lunch will be served!

We hope to see you at our upcoming events! If you have any questions, feel free to ask on my talk page.

— Harej (talk) 05:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

An exciting month of wiki events!
 Hello there,

I am pleased to say that April will be a very exciting month for Wikipedia in Washington, DC. We have a lot of different events coming up, so you will have a lot to choose from.

First, a reminder that our second annual Women in the Arts Edit-a-Thon will take place on Sunday, March 30 at the National Museum of Women in the Arts.

Coming up in April, we have our first-ever Open Government WikiHack with the Sunlight Foundation on April 5–6! We are working together to use open government data to improve the Wikimedia projects, and we would love your help. All are welcome, regardless of coding or editing experience. We will also be having a happy hour the day before, with refreshments courtesy of the Sunlight Foundation.

On Friday, April 11 we are having our first edit-a-thon ever with the Library of Congress. The Africa Collection Edit-a-Thon will focus on the Library's African and Middle East Reading Room. It'll be early in the morning, but it's especially worth it if you're interested in improving Wikipedia's coverage of African topics.

The following day, we are having our second annual Wiki Loves Capitol Hill training. We will discuss policy issues relevant to Wikimedia and plan for our day of outreach to Congressional staffers that will take place during the following week.

There are other meetups in the works, so be sure to check our meetup page with the latest. I hope to see you at some of these events!

All the best, James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 01:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Two edit-a-thons coming up!

Hello there!

I'm pleased to tell you about two upcoming edit-a-thons:

 * This Tuesday, April 29, from 2:30 to 5:30 PM, we have the Freer and Sackler edit-a-thon. (Sorry for the short notice!)
 * On Saturday, May 10 we have the Wikipedia APA edit-a-thon, in partnership with the Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center, from 10 AM to 5 PM.

We have more stuff coming up in May and June, so make sure to keep a watch on the DC meetup page. As always, if you have any recommendations or requests, please leave a note on the talk page.

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 20:38, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Meet up with us

Happy May!

There are a few meetups in DC this month, including an edit-a-thon later this month. Check it out:
 * On Thursday, May 15 come to our evening WikiSalon at the Cove co-working space in Dupont Circle. If you're available Thursday evening, feel free to join us!
 * Or if you prefer a Saturday night dinner gathering, we also have our May Meetup at Capitol City Brewing Company. (Beer! Non-beer things too!)
 * You are also invited to the Federal Register edit-a-thon at the National Archives later this month.

Come one, come all!

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 20:20, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Washington, DC meetups in June

Greetings!

Wikimedia DC has yet another busy month in June. Whether you're a newcomer to Wikipedia or have years of experience, we're happy to see you come. Here's what's coming up:

 * On Wednesday, June 11 from 7 to 9 PM come to the WikiSalon at the Cove co-working space. Hang out with Wikipedia enthusiasts!
 * Saturday, June 14 is the Frederick County History Edit-a-Thon from 11 AM to 4 PM. Help improve local history on Wikipedia.
 * The following Saturday, June 21, is the June Meetup. Dinner and drinks with Wikipedians!
 * Come on Tuesday, June 24 for the Wikipedia in Your Library edit-a-thon at GWU on local and LGBT history.
 * Last but not least, on Sunday, June 29 we have the Phillips Collection Edit-a-Thon in honor of the Made in America exhibit.

Wikipedia is better with friends, so why not come out to an event?

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 01:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The Great American Wiknic and other events in July

I am pleased to announce our fourth annual picnic, the Great American Wiknic, will take place at Meridian Hill Park in Washington, D.C. on Sunday, July 13 from 1 to 5 PM (rain date: July 20). We will be hanging out by the statue of Dante Alighieri, a statue that was donated to the park in 1921 as a tribute to Italian Americans. Read more about the statue on Wikipedia. If you would like to sign up for the picnic, you can do so here. When signing up, say what you’re going to bring!

July will also feature the second annual Great American Wiknic in Frederick, Maryland. This year’s Frederick picnic will take place on Sunday, July 6 at Baker Park. Sign up here for the Frederick picnic.

What else is going on in July? We have the American Chemical Society Edit-a-Thon on Saturday, July 12, dedicated to notable chemists, and our monthly WikiSalon on Wednesday, July 16.

We hope to see you at our upcoming events!

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 21:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Battle of Fort Stevens Edit-a-Thon!

Greetings!

Sorry for the last minute update, but our friends at the DC Historical Society have scheduled a Battle of Fort Stevens Edit-a-Thon to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the Civil War battle fought in the District. The event will last from noon to 2 PM on Wednesday, July 30. Hope you can make it!

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 21:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia and YOUR History: Taking Control of the Internet
Come one and come all. To a presentation at the Laurel Historical Society about how you can help verify, validate, and edit the information that is on the front line of local history.
 * Show the Internet who is the better editor.
 * Be the creator of culture that you know you are.
 * Spread the knowledge of noteworthy people who no one but you cares about.
 * Lead the charge to a better Wikipedia --- eventually.

Geraldshields11 (talk) 02:07, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia and YOUR History: Taking Control of the Internet
See you at the Laurel Pool Room, 9th and Main Street, Laurel, MD on Thursday, September 11, 2014 at 7:00 PM EST. See http://www.meetup.com/Wikimedia-DC/events/205494212/ for more information. Geraldshields11 (talk) 02:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia DC invites revolutionaries, free thinkers, and other sundry editors to a DC WikiSalon
The WikiSalon is a special meetup usually held during the first and third full weeks of every month, from 7 PM to 9 PM. It's an informal gathering of Wikimedia enthusiasts, who come together to discuss Wikimedia wikis and collaboratively edit. There's no set agenda, and guests are welcome to recommend articles for the group to edit or edit on their own.

If you're coming by Metro, the closest station is Dupont Circle (on the Red Line). If you're driving, a lot of parking opens up downtown after 6:30 PM, so finding a parking space (even a free one) should be easy. Once you've found the building, go to Cove on the second floor. We will be in the conference room. When: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 at 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM

Where: The Cove, Dupont Circle, 1730 Connecticut Avenue NW, 2nd floor, 20009, DC

For more information, see http://www.meetup.com/Wikimedia-DC/events/205500822/

My best regards, Geraldshields11 (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia DC's Wonderful meetups
Wikimedia DC's Upcoming meetups My best regards, Geraldshields11 (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thursday, September 11: “Wikipedia and YOUR History: Taking Control of the Internet, One Article at a Time!”
 * A presentation at the Laurel Historical Society about how you can help verify, validate, and edit the information that is on the front line of local history. Laurel Pool Room, 9th and Main Street in Laurel, MD. 7 PM.
 * Wednesday, September 17: WikiSalon
 * Come for the pizza, stay for the conversation. 7 PM – 9 PM
 * Saturday, September 20: September Meetup
 * Get dinner and drinks with fellow Wikipedians! 6 PM
 * Sunday, September 21: Laurel History Edit-a-Thon
 * Local history for Wikipedia! 10:15 AM – 4 PM
 * Saturday, September 27 – Sunday, September 28: Please RSVP for the Open Government WikiHack at Eventbrite by clicking on the link. The National Archives and Records Administration and Wikimedia DC are teaming up to come up with solutions that help integrate government data into Wikipedia. 10:30 AM – 5 PM each day

The wonderful annual meeting! And more!

Hello, fellow Wikipedian!

I am excited to announce our upcoming Annual Meeting at the National Archives! We'll have free lunch, an introduction by Archivist of the United States David Ferriero, and a discussion featuring Ed Summers, the creator of CongressEdits. Join your fellow DC-area Wikipedians on Saturday, October 18 from 12 to 4:30 PM. RSVP today!

Also coming up we have the Human Origins edit-a-thon on October 17 and the WikiSalon on October 22. Hope to see you at our upcoming events!

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 21:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

End-of-the-year meetups

Hello,

You're invited to the end-of-the-year meetup at Busboys and Poets on Sunday, December 14 at 6 PM. There is Wi-Fi, so bring your computer if you want!

You are also invited to our WikiSalon on Thursday, December 18 at 7 PM.

Hope to see you at our upcoming events!

Best,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 02:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Museum hacks and museum edits
 Hello there!

Upcoming events:

 * February 6–8: The third annual ArtBytes Hackathon at the Walters Art Museum! This year Wikimedia DC is partnering with the Walters for a hack-a-thon at the intersection of art and technology, and I would like to see Wikimedia well represented.
 * February 11: The monthly WikiSalon, same place as usual. RSVP on Meetup or just show up!
 * February 15: Wiki Loves Small Museums in Ocean City. Mary Mark Ockerbloom, with support from Wikimedia DC, will be leading a workshop at the Small Museum Association Conference on how they can contribute to Wikipedia. Tons of representatives from GLAM institutions will be present, and we are looking for volunteers. If you would like to help out, check out "Information for Volunteers".

I am also pleased to announce events for Wikimedia DC Black History Month with Howard University and NPR. Details on those events soon.

If you have any questions or have any requests, please email me at james.hare@undefinedwikimediadc.org.

See you there! – James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 03:11, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia DC celebrates Black History Month, and more!
 Hello again!

Not even a week ago I sent out a message talking about upcoming events in DC. Guess what? There are more events coming up in February.

First, as a reminder, there is a WikiSalon on February 11 (RSVP here or just show up) and Wiki Loves Small Museums at the Small Museum Association Conference on February 15 (more information here).

Now, I am very pleased to announce:

 * Tuesday, February 17 from 10 AM to 3 PM there will be #WikiTurgy at the University of Maryland. Join fellow theatre enthusiasts for a “mass act of public dramaturgy!”
 * Thursday, February 19 from 10 AM to 4 PM we are hosting the Howard University Black History Edit-a-Thon. We are working in partnership with the Moorland-Spingarn Research Center to improve Wikipedia’s coverage of African-American and African diasporic history.
 * Tuesday, February 24 from 6 PM to 8 PM we have the Black History Month “First Edit” at NPR. Help improve Wikipedia and help others make their first edit to Wikipedia!
 * Finally, our monthly dinner meetup is on Saturday, February 28.

There is going to be a lot going on, and I hope you can come to some of the events!

If you have any questions or need any special accommodations, please let me know.

Regards,

James Hare

(To unsubscribe, remove your username here.) 18:19, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Editing for Women's History in March
 Hello,

I am very excited to announce this month’s events, focused on Women’s History Month:

 * Sunday, March 8: Women in the Arts 2015 Edit-a-thon – 10 AM to 4 PM
 * Women in the Arts and ArtAndFeminism Wikipedia Edit-a-thon at the National Museum of Women in the Arts. Free coffee and lunch served!
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup
 * Wednesday, March 11: March WikiSalon – 7 PM to 9 PM
 * An evening gathering with free-flowing conversation and free pizza.
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup (or just show up!)
 * Friday, March 13: NIH Women's History Month Edit-a-Thon – 9 AM to 4 PM
 * In honor of Women’s History Month, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) is organizing and hosting an edit-a-thon to improve coverage of women in science in Wikipedia. Free coffee and lunch served!
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup
 * Saturday, March 21: Women in STEM Edit-a-Thon at DCPL – 12 PM
 * Celebrate Women's History Month by building, editing, and expanding articles about women in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields during DC Public Library's first full-day edit-a-thon.
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup
 * Friday, March 27: She Blinded Me with Science, Part III – 10 AM to 4 PM
 * Smithsonian Institution Archives Groundbreaking Women in Science Wikipedia Edit-a-thon. Free lunch courtesy of Wikimedia DC!
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup
 * Saturday, March 28: March Dinner Meetup – 6 PM
 * Dinner and drinks with your fellow Wikipedians!
 * More information • RSVP on Meetup

Hope you can make it to an event! If you have any questions or require any special accommodations, please let me know.

Thanks,

James Hare

To unsubscribe from this newsletter, remove your name from this list. 02:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Upcoming attractions in DC
 Hello!

Here are some upcoming DC meetups in April and May:

 * Tuesday, April 14: National Archives Hackathon on Wikipedia Space with American University – 2:30-5pm
 * See the latest work on the Wikipedia Space exhibit in the new NARA Innovation Hub and brainstorm on new ideas for a public exhibit about Wikipedia
 * Friday, April 17: Women in Tech Edit-a-thon with Tech LadyMafia – 5-9pm
 * Team up with Tech LadyMafia to improve Wikipedia content on women in the history of technology.
 * Saturday, April 25: April Dinner Meetup – 6 PM
 * Dinner and drinks with your fellow Wikipedians!
 * Friday, May 1: International Labour Day Edit-a-Thon – 1:30 PM to 4:30 PM
 * An edit-a-thon at the University of Maryland

Hope to see you at these events! If you have any questions or require any special accommodations, please let me know.

Cheers,

James Hare To remove yourself from this mailing list, remove your name from this list. 22:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

February events and meetups in DC
Greetings from  Wikimedia DC !

February is shaping up to be a record-breaking month for us, with nine scheduled edit-a-thons and several other events:
 * On Friday, February 12, NPR will host a Black History Month First Edit event.
 * On Saturday, February 13 and Sunday, February 14, we're working with the Wiki Education Foundation to hold a series of four edit-a-thons at the AAAS 2016 Annual Meeting.
 * On Tuesday, February 16, we're holding the Smithsonian American Art Museum and American University WikiWorkshop with Professor Andrew Lih's class.
 * On Saturday, February 20, the Smithsonian American Art Museum will host the African American Artists Edit-a-Thon.
 * On Friday, February 26, Howard University will host its second annual Black History Month Edit-a-Thon.
 * On Saturday, February 27, we have three different events. In the morning, we're holding an Accessibility Edit-a-Thon at Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library.  In the afternoon, we'll host our second February WikiSalon at Cove Dupont Circle, followed by our monthly dinner meetup at Vapiano.

We hope to see you at one—or all—of these events!

Do you have an idea for a future event? Please write to us at [mailto:info@wikimediadc.org info@wikimediadc.org] !

Kirill Lokshin (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

''You're receiving this message because you signed up for updates about DC meetups. To unsubscribe, please remove your name from the list.''

March events and meetups in DC
Greetings from  Wikimedia DC !

Looking for something to do in DC in March? We have a series of great events planned for the month:
 * On Wednesday, March 9, we'll host our first March WikiSalon at Cove Dupont Circle.
 * On Friday, March 11, the National Archives will host the Women in the Civil War Edit-a-Thon.
 * On Saturday, March 19, the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian will host the Color History with the Smithsonian! event, and we'll hold our second Accessibility Edit-a-Thon at the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library.
 * On Sunday, March 20, the American Chemical Society will host the Computers in Chemistry Edit-a-Thon.
 * On Saturday, March 26, we'll host our second March WikiSalon at Cove Dupont Circle, followed by our monthly dinner meetup at Vapiano.

Can't make it to an event? Most of our edit-a-thons allow virtual participation; see the guide for more details.

Do you have an idea for a future event? Please write to us at [mailto:info@wikimediadc.org info@wikimediadc.org] !

Kirill Lokshin (talk) 16:29, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

''You're receiving this message because you signed up for updates about DC meetups. To unsubscribe, please remove your name from the list.''

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Belltower


text:
Talk:Artiodactyl

te

Bovidae?
Are sheep and goats really bovidae? Vicki Rosenzweig, Saturday, June 8, 2002

Yes they are, but they are not bovinae. Bovidae include all the ruminants with conical or heliconical horns, goats, sheep, and antelopes as well as cows. The families of ruminants are distinguished by their horns: chevrotains have none, pronghorns have pronged horns, giraffes have stubs, deer have antlers, and bovids have heliconical horns. -phma

Kosher?
Does anyone else think the info on what is/isn't considered Kosher doesn't belong on this page? -- stewacide 05:36, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to have the stuff on food taboos in here - the distinctions between what may and may not be eaten by the different religions do actually follow the taxonomy, and this is the page on which the taxonomy is being presented. The existing material on food permissions does need a bit of a rewrite, though, I'll get round to it sooner or later if no-one else does. seglea 07:11, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * But add quotation marks and/ or mention "hallal" as well at least! Wikipedia, pretending to be neutral, cannot allow such a statement which could all to easily be explained as Jewish-coloured (or coloured by any culture, to be sure), can it?--Caesarion 09:57, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, now that I read the line better I see that the first sentence is relativated by the following --Caesarion 10:00, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)again.

Whales?
The article lists hippos as closest to pigs, but according to Richard Dawkins in The Ancestor's Tale the closest relatives to the hippos are the whales (he refers to post-2000 molecular research). Given that this hypothesis is quite young I could understand it not being the accepted relationship, but does anyone know enough about it to mention it? I ask this here instead of at hippopotamus because this is where the family tree is presented. —Rory ☺ 22:30, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, and by now fossil evidence that supports this theory has been found, too. (Origin of Whales from Early Artiodactyls: Hands and Feet of Eocene Protocetidae from Pakistan. Philip D. Gingerich, Munir ul Haq, Iyad S. Zalmout, Intizar Hussain Khan, and M. Sadiq Malkan. Science 21 September 2001; 293: 2239-2242.) Both DNA and fossils pointing in one direction -- seems like it's time to update the taxonomy. --Chl 16:30, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You seem more knowledgeable than I about the topic. Could you add that information to the relevant articles? —Rory ☺ 17:03, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Even if evolution is true, whales shouldn't be classed as this as they themselves don't have toes. Taxonomy of a certain animal is supposed to describe that animal, not its hypothetical ancestors. Primal Groudon (talk) 18:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with User - Primal Groudon. According to the UNGULATES Wiki page "As a descriptive term, "ungulate" normally excludes cetaceans (whales, dolphins, porpoises), as they do not possess most of the typical morphological characteristics of ungulates, but recent discoveries indicate that they are descended from early artiodactyls.[4] Ungulates are typically herbivorous (though some modern species are omnivorous, such as pigs, and some prehistoric ones were carnivorous, like mesonychians), and many employ specialized gut-bacteria to allow them to digest cellulose." (Mab157 (talk) 15:40, 4 December 2019 (UTC))
 * That's not how any of this works. Even-toed ungulates was just the common name for Artiodactyla because all members had an even number of toes. Cetacea was then subsumed under Artiodactyla, so they are not "ungulates" in the strict sense but they are in fact artiodactylans and are discussed on this page  User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 17:23, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps a section needs to be added adressing pro and con arguments with classifying cetacea under the same order as other hooved animals. I'm sure there are articles available explaining why it makes sense to classify cetacea together with hooved animal in spite of them sharing no obvious anatomical features. Even the proposed ancestor of whales Ambulocetus has no obvious anatomical resemblance with hooved animals. Rigognos Molinarios (talk) 00:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Demise of the Artiodactyla
Since the Artiodactyla as traditionally composed is paraphyletic, because it excludes cetaceans, future authors will be inclined to throw the Artiodactyla into the "laundry basket" by using the name Cetartiodactyla to include land-living artiodactyls and cetaceans. The phrase "laundry basket" means a bunch of paraphyletic or polyphyletic assemblages.

 * The other option is to recognize Artiodactyla as the name of the clade instead of Cetartiodactyla, since the Cetacea is just one (successful) group that arose within that clade of artiodactyls. There are precedents for both approaches. Cephal-odd 19:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

†Agriochoeridae
The family †Agriochoeridae is still unlisted, and therefore in red, but the Genus †Agriochoerus does have an entry. Is there a way to place †Agriochoeridae in blue, but redirect to †Agriochoerus? That way a user can go directly to the article without having to "google it" like I had to do. User:retrograde62 22:30, 18 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.161.147 (talk)

Economic importance?
The article's introductory paragraph concludes with the phrase "...including many that are of great economic importance to humans." However, information to support this statement is absent from the article. Is this appropriate? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 13:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Cetartiodactyla
Should Cetartiodactyla officially be put in as the superorder of Artiodactyla and Cetacea? Eli Falk 18:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, let's wait a couple of years. In any case, let's leave anything as controversial as this out of the taxoboxes for now... Fedor 09:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

 * EDIT: 1 yr later, I think that Cetartiodactyla should have whales and hippos and be placed in the Artiodactyls. -Walkingwith08 (talk) 16:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ungulate template
I removed the ungulate template for a couple reasons. 1) If we are going to use it, it has to actually be a template. A template is updated from one central page in the template space, and then changes occur on all the pages.  If this template was on all the pages, and someone wanted to update it, they'd have to make the same edit dozens of times.  2) Classifying cetaceans as "ungulates" is not an uncontroversial assumption. While most agree that they are descended from ungulates, it's not accurate to call them ungulates -- whales, after all, are not hooved. If we want to include cetaceans I think the template has to be for the superorder certartiodactyls. Remember ungulates is not an exclusively taxonomic term. --JayHenry 19:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Changes happening today
I'm going to be doing quite a bit of editing of this page today, so it'll probably go through various stages of readiness. Cheers, Jack (talk) 13:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean?

 * The international trade in beef for 2000 was over $30 billion and represented only 23 percent of world beef production.

Does this assert that 77% of world beef production is not traded internationally, suggesting that the total beef market is somewhere in the neighborhood of $130B?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 02:21, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Mating and reproduction�Perissodactyl males are just like most anlmals they fight for the attention of the females.� When a male finds a female he will taste her urine to see if she is in (estrus)heat.�The female can also signal the male if she is in estrus.� Perissodactyls most often only have one baby at a time, rarely, the females ever  twins.�The pregnancy  is very long, from about 11 months in horses to 16 months for rhinoceroses.� The calf or foal is able to stand within moments of birth, but is very dependent on its mother.� The young stays with its mother even after it is independent, usually until it is chased off by the mother upon the birth of a new foal or calf. � In horses, the foal will enter into the herd proper, later, young stallions are often chased off and join bachelor herds.� With rhinos and tapirs, the newly weaned calf wanders away to search for new feeding grounds� —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.48.129.151 (talk) 23:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Just why is Artiodactyla paraphyletic?
The matter is unclear, and I cannot be the only reader confused. The claim is that the exclusion of whales renders the group paraphyletic. The labels in the cladogram File:Artiodactylamorpha.png (included in the article) don't include either Artiodactyla or whales, but there are two pictures of whales and a shaded area labeled "Artiodactylamorpha". Generally, and perhaps in this case, tacking the -morpha suffix onto a taxon name produces the name of a more inclusive taxon.

It is evident from the cladogram that Artiodactylamorpha+Perissodactyla+Hydracotherium is a monophyletic group. Perhaps it has a real name; I shall call it the APH group. Since it is the clade originating with the last common ancestor of the Artiodactylamorpha, the latter is paraphyletic if and only if it lacks some subclade of the APH group. It does lack the Perissodactyla+Hydracotherium subclade and of course subsubclades like the Rinocerotidae, so it is indeed paraphyletic. The whales, though (at least those depicted) have nothing to do with the matter.

Of course, the claim is that Artiodactyla is paraphyletic, not that Artiodactylamorpha is. If Artiodactyla is indeed included in Artiodactylamorpha, however, then the last common ancestor of the Artiodactyla is included as well, and—going by the cladogram—so is every animal descended from that ancestor. The paraphyly of Artiodactyla would need to be a consequence of the exclusion of some of these artiodactylamorph descendants. It appears from the cladogram, though, that none of these are whales.

The exclusion of whales could render Artiodactyla paraphyletic, then, only if the group is more inclusive than Artiodactylamorpha. Is it the entire set of animals shown in File:Artiodactylamorpha.png, including dogs and cats, minus some group that includes the whales?

Peter M. Brown (talk) 18:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

 * It's actually somewhat simpler than that: the cladogram does not show the current consensus on artiodactyl-cetacean relationships. Instead, it represents the findings of one paper, published in 2009, that challenged that consensus, and disputing that artiodactyla is paraphyletic. It was a sound enough paper at the time, but it has since been contradicted by more research, showing the cladogram in the article to be incorrect (see, for example, this 2011 paper).

 * So, the latest research (to the best of my knowledge) shows that the article text is correct, and the cladogram is wrong. I don't blame you for being confused, and, in my view, the image should simply be removed from the article - at best, it contradicts the text. Anaxial (talk) 20:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

 * The current text reads: "The group excludes whales (Cetacea), although DNA sequence data indicate they share a common ancestor, making the group paraphyletic." This is still problematic: sharing a common ancestor with whales does not per se make the group paraphyletic. For example, Hominidae shares a common ancestor with Cetacea, but Hominidae is monophyletic. This should be clarified. 151.46.255.132 (talk) 17:17, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And if whales are excluded they should be thrown out of the picture in the taxobox--Ymblanter (talk) 21:18, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

The answer is it is and it isn't. The use of Artiodactyla is problematic because it is used two ways. Traditionally, Artiodactyla is the mammalian order containing even-toed ungulates and excludes the cetaceans, which were assigned to another traditional mammalian order. The discovery that cetaceans evolved from within the artiodactyls raised a problem for using the traditional orders, with two approaches.
 * (1) Continue to use Artiodactyla in the traditional sense for even toed ungulates, excluding cetaceans, which makes Artiodactlya paraphyletic. This approach led to the introduction of the new name Cetartiodactyla for the monophyletic clade containing the artiodactyls and cetaceans. This seems to be the general approach taken in most studies, especially molecular stadies.
 * (2) Redefine Artiodactyla to fit current findings, which means Cetacea becomes a clade within a monophyletic Artiodactyla. The Spaulding et al (2009) paper that the figure come from took this approach. The figure uses Artiodactylamorpha because it includes the extinct stem groups as well as the crown group. They proposes a complete set of new and revised names, including abolishing Whippomorpha (not used in the same sense as most -morpha groupings) and replacing it with Cetancodonta (including all living hippos and cetaceans in crown group) and Cetancodontamorpha (also including extinct stem groups).
 * My understanding is that most studies continue to use option 1, using Cetartiodactyla and Whippomorpha, regardless of the merits of the Spaulding et al (2009) proposal (see section in their introduction). The reality is that both approaches are used and the article needs to reflect this somehow, while keeping a consistent approach. Jts1882 (talk) 16:16, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

"double-pulley structure"
Since the lead section mentions "double-pulley structure", it would be useful if this was explained somewhere in the article, or if there was a link to an article that explained it. Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 04:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Cladogram
It is not obvious what the numbers on the cladogram mean. Thanks.

The Letter J (talk) 11:18, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Horses and related
Also, are horses even-toed? The article says they're odd-toed, but the cladogram lists equus. The Letter J (talk) 11:22, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Cetartiodactyla
The Cetartiodactyla link at the bottom of the second paragraph leads right back to the Artiodactyla. Seems rather pointless! Perhaps the page should be changed to Cetartiodactyla as it's more scientifically correct, with artiodactyla redirecting to Cetartiodactyla rather than the other way round, and even toed ungulate leading to a page about the historical wastebasket group rather than the scientific information, similar to the pages for cetacea and whales (see the nomination for deletion for the 'whale' article.). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.22.73.39 (talk) 02:39, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Grammar
The grammar in some parts of this article is terrible probably the stuff that's been translated from German it needs some cleaning up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.88.66.17 (talk) 05:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Serious problems with the layout and wording after inclusion of material from the German version
@User:Dunkleosteus77. Was this a direct machine-translation from the German article? It reads very awkwardly. And from what I can see some sourced information have been removed. If the intent was merely to expand a section of the article, it should have been inserted to the relevant sections with the rest being retained as is.

There are two subsections on Taxonomy currently, for example. The list of taxa also shouldn't be the first subsection without introductory/explanatory text. Compare with the way this was handled in the old layout.

There are also numerous weirdly phrased sentences and errors in terminology. Here's a random sampling:
 * The artiodactyls thus form a form a taxon, ie., a group which, although not a closed community of descent, is characterized by common features.
 * The porcine, which consist of the Real or Old World pigs and peccaries or peccaries.
 * The hippos, which belong to its own submission...
 * Until it was caught by User:Jonesey95, Mammalia was presented as an order, not a class. Which might be another artifact of bad translation.
 * Artiodactyls have similar characteristics between each other, in particular the construction of the limbs, which are highly customized to aquatic life.  <- ???
 * The molars of porcine provide a few bumps.
 * Originally two rows of were probably teat from the armpit to the groin area available
 * These animals are marked bottom dwellers
 * From then on, they hit, due to the aquatic life, their own lineage.

etc. There are tons more.

I'm sorry, but I think it's incomprehensible at this state. If you can identify what sections you are trying to add, I think it's best to start over and revert to this version. You can then re-add the sections one by one, avoiding displacing the preexisting information and making sure the English is up to standards.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  05:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a bad idea as it would mean only people who understand german can help out. We can improve the current version without having to refer back to the German version. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree per WP:MACHINETRANSLATION ("Wikipedia consensus is that an unedited machine translation, left as a Wikipedia article, is worse than nothing"). It has been in this state for around a month, and it's a high-importance article. The sourced text in the original version should not have been overwritten for example. Especially since the replacement, from what I can see, are sometimes completely unsourced or actually less informative than the original (the lead for instance). A lot of the text is also already insurmountably incomprehensible, especially the technical parts. And I doubt those can be fixed by mere copyediting. A good example is this: "The molars of porcine provide a few bumps. In contrast, the camels and ruminants have bumps that are crescent-shaped melting strips reshuffled (selenodont)." I vaguely get that it refers to dental morphology (bunodonts vs. selenodonts, I guess), but like the majority of the existing sentences, it needs clarification. And since it is unsourced, you do still need to refer to the original German version anyway. There are other even more mysterious sentences that I can't even begin to make sense of (e.g.  They're classified within the ruminants particularly ethnic piglets missing the omasum, otherwise show all kinds of subordination to the same building and the same digestive way.) It's unworkable at this state.  --  O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  21:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

 * It's funny how you mentioned the lead, because I'm pretty sure I left the original one up (did I? I'm forgetting) Sorry about the copy/edit issues, it seems I've missed a lot of grammatical errors. I was also kind of hoping for some help on the copy/editing after I added it, but I didn't realise there were so many errors. I have no idea how I missed the fact that there were two Taxonomy sections (and why no one in over a month fixed that). Anyways, I'm really sorry. Dunkleosteus77   (push to talk)  23:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope. The lead is also translated from German. Normally I'd help fix them too (that was my original intent when I looked it over). But after taking a look at the state it is in now, imo, it's kinda hopeless. There are simply too many errors. I really think it'd be much better to start over, and introduce the new content slowly over time. That way any translation issues can be fixed more easily and in context (though I don't know how useful we are at that as well - none of the recent contributors to the article seem to speak German, much less scientific German).-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  00:43, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Yeah, some words, like species name, don't have an English translation, per-say, so the easiest thing to do would be to go to the German Wikipedia and search that particular world (like "Unpaarzeher", odd toed ungulates). So, is the article going to be reverted to the version before the translation? Dunkleosteus77   (push to talk)  02:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I recommend doing so. Since it's your edit, it'd be best if you do it. You can maybe keep a copy of the current version in a userpage somewhere and then add the info again one by one to the proper sections. Making sure it's been copyedited correctly before doing so. This is a pretty high-importance article and gets around 400 views a day. -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  06:30, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've copy\pasted it into my sandbox, and I'll sort it out from there. When I think I'm done, I'll add a draft here on the talk page to make sure the latter of the copy/edit problems are solved. Dunkleosteus77   (push to talk)  13:38, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've reverted it to the previous version. Good luck with the reintegration. Cheers. -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  22:02, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm finished with the copy/editing problems of the Taxonomy section. Your input is appreciated. Dunkleosteus77  (push to talk)  00:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've revised the Taxonomy section, but before I continue, could you check to make sure I'm doing it right? Dunkleosteus77   (push to talk)  21:20, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Numerous sentences still don't make sense. Too many to point out individually. You should go through the sentences one by one, rather than scanning for errors. Try avoiding following German grammar (in particular, don't follow the German capitalization rules, follow WP:NCFAUNA). Reword sentences when necessary so they can be understood, which is the most important consideration here. For example:

 * Differences in the construction of the stomach could imagine that the ability of rumination has developed independently between camels and ruminants; therefore, the camels are not actually counted as ruminants.

 * Could be rewritten as:

 * Differences in stomach construction indicated that rumination evolved independently between tylopods and ruminants; therefore tylopods were excluded from Ruminantia.

 * It depends on the original German of course. The point being, to avoid translating literally and instead translate the concept being put forward.

 * Some terminology errors include:

 * "Porcine" is an adjective, not a noun, and a very uncommon one at that. In most cases where it is used, just use the formal name for the taxon - Suina, and "pigs and allies" for the rest.
 * "Selenodontem" is not English. The word is selenodont, characterized by crescent-shaped cusps. Not "crescent-shaped melting strips".
 * "Hippos" similarly might be better referred to by the more formal "hippopotamuses", etc.
 * When a term seems unfamiliar, you should refer to existing Wikipedia articles and follow the terminology and/or descriptions that they use.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  23:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * P.S. Just want to say that I hope you don't misunderstand any of this. :P I do appreciate what you're doing and acknowledge that it's very difficult to translate scientific articles. It's just that we do need to ensure that they are at least comprehensible to the readers before putting them up on the articles.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  00:11, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

I've revised it again, with the comments noted (and a lot more grammatical errors fixed). Check it out at my sandbox. Many thanks. Dunkleosteus77  (push to talk)  02:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Due to the lack of comments in around a month's time, I'll repost the German version again (but I've re-added the better and more detailed parts of the English version, e.g, the Diet and feeding section into the Digestive system section). If the copyediting problems are still very high and unintelligible (like the sentences above), do not hesitate to take it down, but if there are just minor copyediting problems left, just fix it. I'm pretty sure there's still technical jargon (like astragalus) and feel free to change those if you feel it should be. Thank you, and again, if copyediting problems are still still present, do not hesitate to take it down.

Haircut
I've just done a severe trim of the lead. There should have not been stuff in there which wasn't summary of similar in the body, so I don't believe anything is lost - and it's certainly more readable. Snori (talk) 02:35, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Horns and antlers
Please check the accuracy of my change. The previous "end arms" version was very odd, but I am no specialist, so may have misinterpreted Pecora. Snori (talk) 08:27, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Taxoboxes for even-toed ungulates and whales
I think we need a single approach to handle all taxoboxes of even-toed ungulates and whales. Looking at a few articles, I've seen the following options:
 * Refer to order Artiodactyla as including a suborder Whippomorpha, which in turn has an infraorder Cetacea (whales) - for example, Baleen whale
 * Refer to order Artiodactyla as a paraphyletic group, which excludes whales; Cetacea is an other order - for example, Rorqual
 * Use the order name Cetartiodactyla; Cetacea is an unranked clade in this group - for example, Blue whale

I think we should move towards a more consistent standard for all articles referring to animals from this clade. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:44, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should try to be consistent. If either Whippomorpha or Cetartiodactyla has become generally accepted within the scientific community we should use that.  If not we should use Artiodactyla as a paraphyletic group. Rlendog (talk) 18:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * We should only use natural groups in the taxoboxes. Otherwise we're misleading the reader into believing an invalid group is valid. FunkMonk (talk) 21:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * We use paraphyletic groups elsewhere (e.g Reptilia), we just mark them as paraphyletic (see Template:Automatic taxobox/doc/advanced). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 02:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * There are newer, monophyletic definitions of Reptilia, as our article states. So the taxobox disclaimer there seems to be inadequte... We should use newer, monophyletic definitions where possible. FunkMonk (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Artiodactyla and Cetartiodactyla are synonyms, so Order Cetartiodactyla, Suborder Whippomorpha, Infraorder Cetacea is a valid option  User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:58, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Distribution and Habitat
The article appears to state that there are no even-toed ungulates native to North America, which is so absurd I feel I must be missing something. Am I missing something? Nstgtr42 (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It says (and Bison clearly contradicts this) that there are currently no even-toed ungulates native to North America, although there used to be. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:47, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Classification should include cetaceans
An unregistered user reversed my edits to include the cetaceans in the classification section. The article does include a discussion about Cetaceans so the classification section should as well. I do not understand the editor's point so it might just be vandalism. --Akrasia25 (talk) 10:17, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The article is about the order Artiodactyla and that includes cetaceans. The taxobox has included them since the end of 2010, included within Cetruminantia and before that linked to the classification section where they were listed. For an unregistered user to delete a decade content based on some concept of what the article is "truly" about borders on vandalism, but if this accusation is unfounded they can make their point here.
 * It does raise the question about the Wikipedia policy of using common names for article titles that would be better named after the taxon, but that is another matter.  Jts1882 | talk 11:42, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It certainly should contain a listing for Cetacea, but no need to go into Cetacea's internal structure. Apart from the question of Cetacea's placement in the Artiodactyla evolutionary tree, the article is about Artiodactyla excluding Cetacea. I would say the same thing about listing Aves in the reptile article - mention it as a group in evolutionary trees, but not its internal subdivisions. 37.26.148.177 (talk) 12:57, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

The “ † “ symbol
The “ † “ symbol appears 34 times in this article without any explanation or reference. If it is means something, let’s state clearly what the meaning is; otherwise, I think it should be stripped out. , Poihths (talk) 00:57, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's shorthand for "extinct," as in the taxon it's in front of is extinct.--Mr Fink (talk) 02:03, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Is it worth replacing them all with extinct so there is a tooltip, i.e. . The first one could (should?) be wikilinked.  Jts1882 | talk 09:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Elk
The animal pictured in the taxobox is a rocky mountain elk, pictured mid-bugle, but the image hyperlinked to the Red Dear page. I edited it to be associated with the correct animal. Hope this isn't a problem! — Preceding unsigned comment added by KingAelle (talk • contribs) 21:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Information on weight in Wikipedia ? (Table yes/no)
Here's the table I made January 31 2023 for Artiodactyla species listed in Wikipedia (when searching from List of mammal genera, the linked genus pages from this page and the species page listed in the genus page).

Information on weight is not given in 66 species of the first table (Ruminantia, Suina and Tylopoda) and 24 species in the 2nd table (Whippomorpha) :

Requested move 24 July 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus proposed name is more adequate for a taxon that includes cetaceans. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 15:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Even-toed ungulate → Artiodactyl – This is probably going to be very controversial, but hear me out: While "even-toed"/"even-hoofed" animals/ungulates are technically the more popular term according to google scholar, the terms themselves tend to exclude cetaceans, as the articles within the search results often specify "cetaceans/whales and dolphins" + "even-toed ungulates," suggesting that the term isn't so inclusive for cetaceans as opposed to all members of artiodactyls. After all, cetaceans don't have toes/hooves. Yes, I know that the earliest cetacean ancestors walked on land, but it still doesn't change that they no longer have "toes" or "hooves." The term "artiodactyls" is used a lot too and can technically be more "inclusive" for cetaceans instead of just terrestrial artiodactyls. I'm aware that the etymology of "Artiodactyla" means "even toed," but taxonomic names can persist even if the ideas behind them are outdated. PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. C LYDE  TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 19:42, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I can support this. However, this would be contrary to the policy WP:COMMONNAME. Also, I can see an argument that Even-Toed Ungulates and Artiodactyla may no longer mean the same thing. If so, would that necessitate two separate articles, one for each? Yuck. If we are all in agreement that Artiodactyla includes Even-Toed Ungulates plus Cetaceans, I'm fine with a rename to Artiodactyla, and an appropriate explanation, as that is how this article currently handles the topic anyways. Cougroyalty (talk) 20:36, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I would say WP:COMMONNAME can be used to support the change. Even-toed ungulate is not the common name for cetaceans, which are not ungulates, even if they have ungulate ancestors. However, the article is not really about the order as outside the taxonomy sections the cetaceans are ignored. For instance, look at the sections on limbs or teeth, which don't cover cetacean features. The threats section gives a number for threatened species which excludes the cetaceans but doesn't say so. I'd support the move if the article was modified to cover the whole order, but unless most of the sections are changed to cover cetaceans it might be better to leave the article at this title. Something should be done about the schizophrenic nature of the article, where different sections cover different topics (the order in the taxonomy and phylogeny section, even-toed ungulates in the rest of the sections). —  Jts1882 | talk 06:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is problematic since this article is about the entire Artiodactyla order, and mostly leaving out an entire infraorder from discussion causes problems to understanding traits that unite the entire order. It's more of an "article lacking sufficiantly updated and detailed information" issue than a "naming" issue. I just recently put up a "missing information" template on this article to reflect this. PrimalMustelid (talk) 13:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I've noticed that you are tidying up some of the extinct ungulate taxa. You recently removed Gelocidae from the listing in Pecora, but the Gelocidae article still places it in Pecora. What would be the correct placement? —  Jts1882 | talk 15:18, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The Gelocidae is... a very difficult family for paleontologists to interpret. In the few times that it is researched, some say that it belongs within the Tragulina, some say that it's within Pecora, and some others say that it's some predecessor to the Pecora. I placed it tentatively in the Tragulina in this page and could change that in its own page, but truth is, there's not enough of a consistently solid diagnosis for it. All we know is that the classified genera are ruminants, but after that is where things get shaky. It is an infamous wastebasket taxon known for paleontologists lumping anything that can be diagnosed dentally as having traits of both the Tragulina and Pecora. It's... a mess. Honestly, I'm surprised this family got an article first and not most of the other Tragulina families that currently are more solidly defined. PrimalMustelid (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:24, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Alright, it's clearly been more than 7 days since the opening of this discussion, can we get any final consensus? PrimalMustelid (talk) 20:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per common and more understandable name and consistency with Odd-toed ungulate. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As I stated earlier, I understand that it’s a common name, but the issue is that it’s inaccurate by informal definition to call all artiodactyl members including cetaceans “even-toed ungulates” for a multitude of reasons. What I can see though is an argument for two split pages similar to how “Elephantidae” and “Elephant” work, although probably not everyone would like that. PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Mammals has been notified of this discussion. C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 19:42, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support since it's a misnomer, as previously mentioned with cetaceans. I'd also support moving Odd-toed ungulate to Perissodactyla not just for consistency but because it's also a misnomer. Ignoring the fossil record, tapirs have 4 hooves on their front limbs. Dunkleosteus77  (talk) 23:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support as per my comments above, but coming off the fence. The scope of the article is the whole order Artiodactyla, which includes even-toed ungulates and cetaceans. However, many sections don't cover the full scope so I'd be happier with the move if cetaceans were discussed in the limbs and teeth sections. Perhaps the move would encourage work there once the scope of the article was clearer. —  Jts1882 | talk 05:53, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Artiodactyl