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Strange loop

A strange loop is a cyclic structure that goes through several levels in a hierarchical system. It arises when, by moving only upwards or downwards through the system, one finds oneself back where one started. Strange loops may involve self-reference and paradox. The concept of a strange loop was proposed and extensively discussed by Douglas Hofstadter in Gödel, Escher, Bach, and is further elaborated in Hofstadter's book I Am a Strange Loop, published in 2007.

A tangled hierarchy is a hierarchical consciousness system in which a strange loop appears.

Definitions
A strange loop is a hierarchy of levels, each of which is linked to at least one other by some type of relationship. A strange loop hierarchy is "tangled" (Hofstadter refers to this as a "heterarchy"), in that there is no well defined highest or lowest level; moving through the levels, one eventually returns to the starting point, i.e., the original level. Examples of strange loops that Hofstadter offers include: many of the works of M. C. Escher, the ''Canon 5. a 2'' from J.S. Bach's Musical Offering, the information flow network between DNA and enzymes through protein synthesis and DNA replication, and self-referential Gödelian statements in formal systems.

In I Am a Strange Loop, Hofstadter defines strange loops as follows:

"And yet when I say 'strange loop', I have something else in mind — a less concrete, more elusive notion. What I mean by 'strange loop' is — here goes a first stab, anyway — not a physical circuit but an abstract loop in which, in the series of stages that constitute the cycling-around, there is a shift from one level of abstraction (or structure) to another, which feels like an upwards movement in an hierarchy, and yet somehow the successive 'upward' shifts turn out to give rise to a closed cycle. That is, despite one's sense of departing ever further from one's origin, one winds up, to one's shock, exactly where one had started out. In short, a strange loop is a paradoxical level-crossing feedback loop. (pp. 101–102)"

In cognitive science
According to Hofstadter, strange loops take form in human consciousness as the complexity of active symbols in the brain inevitably leads to the same kind of self-reference which Gödel proved was inherent in any sufficiently complex logical or arithmetical system (that allows for arithmetic by means of the Peano axioms) in his incompleteness theorem. Gödel showed that mathematics and logic contain strange loops: propositions that not only refer to mathematical and logical truths, but also to the symbol systems expressing those truths. This leads to the sort of paradoxes seen in statements such as "This statement is false," wherein the sentence's basis of truth is found in referring to itself and its assertion, causing a logical paradox.

Hofstadter argues that the psychological self arises out of a similar kind of paradox. We are not born with an "I" – the ego emerges only gradually as experience shapes our dense web of active symbols into a tapestry rich and complex enough to begin twisting back upon itself. According to this view the psychological "I" is a narrative fiction, something created only from intake of symbolic data and its own ability to create stories about itself from that data. The consequence is that a perspective (a mind) is a culmination of a unique pattern of symbolic activity in our nervous systems, which suggests that the pattern of symbolic activity that makes identity, that constitutes subjectivity, can be replicated within the brains of others, and perhaps even in artificial brains.

Strangeness
The "strangeness" of a strange loop comes from our way of perceiving, because we categorize our input in a small number of "symbols" (by which Hofstadter means groups of neurons standing for one thing in the outside world). So the difference between the video-feedback loop and our strange loops, our "I"s, is that while the former converts light to the same pattern on a screen, the latter categorizes a pattern and outputs its essence, so that as we get closer and closer to our essence, we get further down our strange loop.

Downward causality
Hofstadter thinks our minds appear to us to determine the world by way of "downward causality", which refers to a situation where a cause-and-effect relationship in a system gets flipped upside-down. Hofstadter says this happens in the proof of Gödel's incompleteness theorem: "Merely from knowing the formula's meaning, one can infer its truth or falsity without any effort to derive it in the old-fashioned way, which requires one to trudge methodically 'upwards' from the axioms. This is not just peculiar; it is astonishing. Normally, one cannot merely look at what a mathematical conjecture says and simply appeal to the content of that statement on its own to deduce whether the statement is true or false. (pp. 169–170)" Hofstadter claims a similar "flipping around of causality" appears to happen in minds possessing self-consciousness. The mind perceives itself as the cause of certain feelings ("I" am the source of my desires), while according to popular scientific models, feelings and desires are strictly caused by the interactions of neurons.

The parallels between downward causation in formal systems and downward causation in brains are explored by Theodor Nenu (2022), together with other aspects of Hofstadter's metaphysics of mind. Nenu also questions the correctness of the above quote by focusing on the sentence which "says about itself" that it is provable (also known as a Henkin-sentence, named after logician Leon Henkin). It turns out that under suitable metamathematical choices (where the Hilbert-Bernays provability conditions do not obtain), one can construct formally undecidable (or even formally refutable) Henkin-sentences for the arithmetical system under investigation. This system might very well be Hofstadter's Typographical Number Theory used in Gödel, Escher, Bach or the more familiar Peano Arithmetic or some other sufficiently rich formal arithmetic. Thus, there are examples of sentences "which say about themselves that they are provable", but they don't exhibit the sort of downward causal powers described in the displayed quote.

Examples
Hofstadter points to Bach's Canon per Tonos, M. C. Escher's drawings Waterfall, Drawing Hands, Ascending and Descending, and the liar paradox as examples that illustrate the idea of strange loops, which is expressed fully in the proof of Gödel's incompleteness theorem.

The "chicken or the egg" paradox is perhaps the best-known strange loop problem.

The "ouroboros", which depicts a dragon eating its own tail, is perhaps one of the most ancient and universal symbolic representations of the reflexive loop concept.

A Shepard tone is another illustrative example of a strange loop. Named after Roger Shepard, it is a sound consisting of a superposition of tones separated by octaves. When played with the base pitch of the tone moving upwards or downwards, it is referred to as the Shepard scale. This creates the auditory illusion of a tone that continually ascends or descends in pitch, yet which ultimately seems to get no higher or lower. In a similar way a sound with seemingly ever increasing tempo can be constructed, as was demonstrated by Jean-Claude Risset.

Visual illusions depicting strange loops include the Penrose stairs and the Barberpole illusion.

A quine in software programming is a program that produces a new version of itself without any input from the outside. A similar concept is metamorphic code.

Efron's dice are four dice that are intransitive under gambler's preference. I.e., the dice are ordered A > B > C > D > A, where x > y means "a gambler prefers x to y".

Individual preferences are always transitive, excluding preferences when given explicit rules such as in Efron's dice or rock-paper-scissors; however, aggregate preferences of a group may be intransitive. This can result in a Condorcet paradox wherein following a path from one candidate across a series of majority preferences may return back to the original candidate, leaving no clear preference by the group. In this case, some candidate beats an opponent, who in turn beats another opponent, and so forth, until a candidate is reached who beats the original candidate.

The liar paradox and Russell's paradox also involve strange loops, as does René Magritte's painting The Treachery of Images.

The mathematical phenomenon of polysemy has been observed to be a strange loop. At the denotational level, the term refers to situations where a single entity can be seen to mean more than one mathematical object. See Tanenbaum (1999).

The Stonecutter is an old Japanese fairy tale with a story that explains social and natural hierarchies as a strange loop.

title: Strange loop


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Gloucester (disambiguation)

Gloucester is a city and the county town of Gloucestershire, United Kingdom. It may also refer to:

Australia

 * Gloucester, New South Wales, a town
 * Gloucester River, a river near the town
 * Gloucester Shire, a former local government area in New South Wales
 * Gloucester Tops, a monolithic plateau located adjacent to the Barrington Tops National Park

Canada

 * Gloucester County, New Brunswick
 * Acadie—Bathurst, New Brunswick (formerly Gloucester), a federal electoral district
 * Gloucester, Ontario
 * Gloucester Township, Ontario

England

 * Gloucestershire, a county
 * Gloucester Avenue, London
 * Gloucester Place, London
 * Gloucester Road, London
 * Gloucester Terrace, London
 * Gloucester (UK Parliament constituency)

Hong Kong

 * Gloucester Road, Hong Kong

Papua New Guinea

 * Gloucester Rural LLG, New Britain
 * Cape Gloucester (Papua New Guinea), New Britain

United States
(by state)
 * Gloucester, Massachusetts
 * Gloucester (Natchez, Mississippi), listed on the National Register of Historic Places
 * Gloucester City, New Jersey
 * Gloucester Point Grounds, the former baseball grounds for the Philadelphia Athletics
 * Gloucester County, New Jersey
 * Gloucester Township, New Jersey
 * Gloucester County, New York
 * Gloucester, North Carolina
 * Gloucester County, Virginia
 * Gloucester Courthouse, Virginia
 * Gloucester Point, Virginia

Boats and ships

 * Gloucester 16, an American sailboat design
 * Gloucester 19, an American sailboat design
 * HMS Gloucester or Glocester, various ships of Britain's Royal Navy

People with the surname

 * John Gloucester (1776–1822), American Presbyterian minister
 * Stephen H. Gloucester (1802–1850), an organizer for the Underground Railroad

Titles

 * Duke of Gloucester, a title in Peerage of the United Kingdom
 * Earl of Gloucester, a title created several times in the Peerage of the United Kingdom

Other uses

 * Gloucester (typeface), a version of the Cheltenham display typeface from Monotype
 * Gloucester Cathedral, in Gloucester, England
 * Gloucester cattle, a breed of dairy and beef cattle
 * Gloucester cheese, a British cheese
 * Gloucester College, Oxford, a former college in England
 * Gloucestershire Old Spots, a breed of pig sometimes referred to as a "gloucester"
 * Gloucester Rugby, a professional rugby union team from the English city of the same name

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Gloucester (disambiguation)


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Paul Atreides

Paul Atreides (later known as Paul Muad'Dib, and later still as The Preacher) is a fictional character in the Dune universe created by Frank Herbert. He is a main character in the first two novels in the series, Dune (1965) and Dune Messiah (1969), and returns in Children of Dune (1976). The character is brought back as two different gholas in the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson novels which conclude the original series, Hunters of Dune (2006) and Sandworms of Dune (2007), and appears in the prequels Paul of Dune (2008) and The Winds of Dune (2009). According to Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's son and biographer, House Atreides was based on the heroic but ill-fated Greek mythological house of Atreus.

A primary theme of Dune and its sequels is Frank Herbert's warning about society's tendencies to "give over every decision-making capacity" to a charismatic leader. He said in 1979, "The bottom line of the Dune trilogy is: beware of heroes. Much better [to] rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes." Paul rises to leadership through military strategy and political maneuvering, but his superhuman powers and ability to fit himself into pre-existing religious infrastructure allow him to force himself upon mankind as their messiah. As "Muad'Dib", Paul becomes the central figure of a new religion, and reluctantly unleashes a bloody jihad in his name across the universe. Paul struggles with the idea of potentially seizing divine control over his newly minted empire, but by following the path of his destiny, he escapes from the burden of it. He lets an assassination plot against him play out, blinding him, and follows the Fremen tradition of the blind going out into the desert to die. The burden of the empire is then placed upon Paul's sister Alia, and his children Leto II and Ghanima. Paul later reappears as the Preacher, seeking to end the religion founded around him, but is assassinated.

Paul is portrayed by Kyle MacLachlan in David Lynch's 1984 film adaptation, by Alec Newman in the 2000 Dune miniseries and its 2003 sequel, and by Timothée Chalamet in the 2021 Denis Villeneuve film Dune and its 2024 sequel.

Dune
The son of Duke Leto Atreides and the Lady Jessica, Paul is the heir of House Atreides, an aristocratic family that rules the planet Caladan. Jessica is a Bene Gesserit and an important key in the Bene Gesserit breeding program. According to the breeding program, she was to produce a daughter, who would be bred with Feyd-Rautha, a nephew of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. However, Jessica falls in love with Leto and grants him the son he desires. Although Paul is a boy, Jessica gives him some training in the Bene Gesserit ways, including enhanced observation and the Sisterhood's specialized martial art. Initially described as "small for his age", Paul has secretly undergone the early Mentat training, and is also schooled in weapon use by Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho.

In Dune (1965), Paul is fifteen years old; the Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV orders the family to leave Caladan and govern the desert planet Arrakis (known as Dune), though Paul's father Duke Leto is in full knowledge that the Emperor is colluding with House Harkonnen to destroy House Atreides as a perceived threat to the throne. On Dune, the family is betrayed by their Suk doctor, Wellington Yueh. He disables the House defensive shields, allowing the Imperial Sardaukar troops, dressed in Harkonnen uniforms, to capture Duke Leto and Thufir Hawat and to kill most of the Atreides army. Duncan sacrifices himself while attempting to hold off the Sardaukar and ensures Paul's escape. His betrayal motivated by the Baron's capture and torture of his Bene Gesserit wife, Yueh implants a poisonous gas capsule concealed within a false tooth on Duke Leto after his capture and instructs Leto to use it to kill the Baron. Shortly afterward, the Baron has Yueh murdered. Upon meeting Baron Harkonnen and his twisted Mentat Piter De Vries, Leto bites down on the capsule. He succeeds in killing De Vries—and himself—but not the Baron. Fed a poison for which only the Baron has the antidote, Hawat is forced to serve as the new Harkonnen Mentat. With some help from Yueh, Paul and Jessica escape into the desert.

They flee to the Fremen, who see in Paul the Lisan al-Gaib or "the Voice from the Outer World", a prophet they call the Mahdi whom they believe is "The One Who Will Lead Us to Paradise". Paul and Jessica take shelter in Sietch Tabr, a Fremen settlement led by the naib, Stilgar. Paul and his mother train the Fremen in weapon use and martial arts, creating a formidable army. When Paul is accepted into the Fremen tribe, he is given the secret "sietch name" Usul, the Fremen word meaning "the base of the pillar". He chooses "Paul Muad'Dib" as his common name of manhood, to be used openly. Muad'Dib is the name of the adapted kangaroo mouse of Arrakis, and Stilgar relates that Paul's choice pleases the Fremen: "Muad'Dib is wise in the ways of the desert. Muad'Dib creates his own water. Muad'Dib hides from the sun and travels in the cool night. Muad'Dib is fruitful and multiplies over the land. Muad'Dib we call 'instructor-of-boys.' That is a powerful base on which to build your life, Paul Muad'Dib, who is Usul among us." Paul leads a Fremen campaign of resistance against Harkonnen rule. He and Chani, daughter of Liet-Kynes, take each other as mates and produce a son, named Leto in honor of Paul's father. Paul also reunites with Gurney Halleck, who had sought refuge with smugglers after the Harkonnen attack. In a bid to unlock his latent powers, Paul undergoes the process of spice agony via the consumption of the Water of Life. He survives, although barely, and the ordeal gives him knowledge of his male and female ancestors; this proves Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach.

Awakening, Paul launches an attack on the Harkonnen and Imperial troops with his Fremen army (and with his personal squad of bodyguards, the Fedaykin), riding the enormous sandworms indigenous to the planet. In the attack, he learns that his son Leto has been killed in a Sardaukar raid. They win and Paul requests an audience with Shaddam IV. He threatens to destroy the spice melange, thus making transport between the planets impossible and effectively destroying civilization. In return for preserving the spice, he requires the hand of the Emperor's daughter, the Bene Gesserit-trained Princess Irulan as well as the Emperor's abdication in favor of Paul. Urged by the Spacing Guild, Shaddam accepts his terms.

Dune Messiah
In Dune Messiah (1969), Paul has been Emperor for twelve years. His jihad has killed sixty-one billion people across the known universe, but according to his prescient vision, this is a fate far better than what he has seen. Paul is beleaguered by a need he sees—to set humanity on a course that does not lead to stagnation and destruction, while at the same time managing both the Empire and the religion built around him.

A Fremen conspiracy attempts to assassinate Paul using a stone burner. The attempt fails, but the effects of the weapon destroy Paul's eyes. Although he becomes physically blind, his prescience allows him to "see" by tightly locking in reality with his prescient visions. Despondent as a result of his prescience, Paul faces another assassination attempt by a conspiracy of the Bene Tleilax, the Bene Gesserit and the Spacing Guild. This attempt, made using a ghola (a resurrected clone) of Paul's friend and mentor Duncan Idaho also fails, but the ordeal seemingly helps the Duncan ghola to regain his memories. At the same time, Chani dies in childbirth, bearing twins: a boy, Leto II, and a girl, Ghanima (which means "spoil of war"). Paul, who did not foresee the birth of twins, loses his prescience after Chani's death and becomes truly blind, although he conceals this. With a knife over the babies, the Tleilaxu Scytale offers to make a ghola of Chani and restore her to life, in exchange for all of Paul's CHOAM holdings and his effective abdication from the throne. However Paul, seeing through his newborn son's eyes, kills Scytale. Immediately afterwards, the dwarf Tleilaxu Master Bijaz makes the same offer regarding the Chani ghola; Paul orders Duncan to kill Bijaz. The blind Paul then walks into the desert to die alone, in accordance with Fremen law. He leaves his children in the care of the Fremen, with Paul's sister Alia set to rule the empire as regent.

Children of Dune
In Children of Dune (1976), a mysterious figure known as The Preacher emerges from the desert and preaches among the people of Arrakis. Led around by a boy, he discredits the religion that has been built around Paul Atreides, saying, "The religion of Muad'Dib is not Muad'Dib", and scorns Alia. It is strongly suggested that he is indeed Paul, which is confirmed when he walks past Alia and says, "Stop trying to pull me into the background once more, sister." Paul meets with his son Leto in the desert. They have both seen mankind's future extinction in their prescient vision; Paul had been unable to face the terrible sacrifice necessary to avoid this future, and hopes Leto will enjoy his life rather than take that path. Leto has decided otherwise, and soon begins the long transformation into a sandworm. Back in Arrakeen, Paul (as the Preacher) speaks out against Alia to the crowd outside Alia's Temple; his words and the actions of Leto cause a riot. Reacting to his blasphemy, Alia's priests rush forward and stab Paul to death, as Alia and the remaining Atreides watch from above.

Over 3,500 years later in God Emperor of Dune (1981), Leto still rules the universe as the Tyrant. The ego-personas of Paul and Leto's other ancestors "live" within his Other Memory.

Later works
At the end of Frank Herbert's sixth and last book in the Dune series, Chapterhouse: Dune (1985), a ghola of Scytale is seemingly the only Tleilaxu Master left alive. He secretly possesses a nullentropy capsule containing cells carefully and secretly collected by the Tleilaxu for millennia, including cells from Paul himself.

In Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's Hunters of Dune, the 2006 sequel to Chapterhouse: Dune, Scytale is a prisoner on the no-ship Ithaca, at the mercy of the latest Duncan Idaho ghola and a rebel group of Bene Gesserit. Nearing death from advanced age, a desperate Scytale trades his precious cell samples for permission to grow his own ghola; Duncan and the Bene Gesserit group subsequently grow gholas of Paul, Chani, Jessica, and others. Meanwhile, the independent Face Dancer Khrone obtains Paul's genetic material from a religious relic on Caladan and tasks his Lost Tleilaxu prisoner Uxtal to create his own ghola of Paul. Named Paolo, this ghola is to be "conditioned" by Khrone's sadistic ghola of Baron Harkonnen to become a twisted version of Paul, who will serve the shadowy needs of Krone's mysterious masters, Daniel and Marty.

In Sandworms of Dune (2007), the young Paul ghola ultimately duels Paolo. Paul is mortally wounded, but the trauma restores his original memories and he manages to heal himself. A power-hungry Paolo overdoses on ultraspice, an incredibly potent form of melange, and falls into a catatonic state. Later on the recovering planet Dune, the awakened gholas of Paul and Chani have reverted to the ways of the ancient Fremen, resolving to lead simple lives and restore the planet to its former glory. Paul reaffirms his love for Chani, telling her he has loved her for five thousand years.

Paul's birth is featured in the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson prequel novel Dune: House Corrino (2001). The 2008 novel Paul of Dune explores both Paul's childhood before Dune and his life between the novels Dune and Dune Messiah. Brian Herbert and Anderson's The Winds of Dune (2009) also relates events from Paul's youth and the period before Dune Messiah.

Parody
In the Dune parody novels National Lampoon's Doon by Ellis Weiner (1984) and Head-Space (2016) by Tom Fowler, Paul is spoofed as "Pall Agamemnides" and "Morty'Dyb", respectively.

Analysis
According to novelist Brian Herbert, Frank Herbert's son and biographer, House Atreides was based on the heroic but ill-fated Greek mythological House Atreus. Noting that the characters in Dune fit mythological archetypes, Brian Herbert wrote that "Paul is the hero prince on a quest who weds the daughter of a 'king'". A primary theme of Dune and its sequels is Frank Herbert's warning about society's tendencies to "give over every decision-making capacity" to a charismatic leader. He said in 1979, "The bottom line of the Dune trilogy is: beware of heroes. Much better rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes." He wrote in 1985, "Dune was aimed at this whole idea of the infallible leader because my view of history says that mistakes made by a leader (or made in a leader's name) are amplified by the numbers who follow without question." In a 1970 interview, Herbert noted that the character of Paul was constructed to express "the conflict between absolutes and the necessity of the moment". Brian Herbert wrote: "Paul Atreides (who is the messianic 'Muad'Dib' to the Fremen) resembles Lawrence of Arabia (T. E. Lawrence), a British citizen who led Arab forces in a successful desert revolt against the Turks during World War I. Lawrence employed guerrilla tactics to destroy enemy forces and communication lines, and came close to becoming a messiah figure for the Arabs. This historical event led Frank Herbert to consider the possibility of an outsider leading native forces against the morally corrupt occupiers of a desert world, in the process becoming a godlike figure to them."

The similarity to T.E. Lawrence was reinforced within the novel Dune Messiah, in which a chapter heading-quotation is taken from a post-conquest work of Paul's, with the title The Seven Pillars of the Universe. This appears to have been inspired by Lawrence's account of his war-time activities in the desert, titled Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

Throughout Paul's rise to superhuman status, he follows a plotline common to many stories describing the birth of a hero. He has unfortunate circumstances forced onto him, and after a long period of hardship and exile, he confronts and defeats the source of evil in his tale. As such, Dune is representative of a general trend beginning in 1960s American science fiction in that it features a character who attains godlike status through scientific means. Paul's riding and controlling a giant sandworm cements him as a Fremen leader, and he eventually gains a level of omniscience which leads to his accession to the Imperial throne and causes the Fremen to worship him like a god.

Juan A. Prieto-Pablos says Herbert achieves a new typology with Paul's superpowers, differentiating the heroes of Dune from earlier heroes such as Superman, A. E. van Vogt's Gilbert Gosseyn, and Henry Kuttner's telepaths. Unlike previous superheroes who acquire their powers suddenly and accidentally, Paul's are the result of "painful and slow personal progress". And unlike other superheroes of the 1960s—who are the exception among ordinary people in their respective worlds—Herbert's characters grow their powers through "the application of mystical philosophies and techniques". For Herbert, the ordinary person can develop incredible fighting skills (Fremen and Sardaukar) or mental abilities (Bene Gesserit and Mentats).

Denis Villeneuve, director and co-writer of the 2021 film adaptation Dune, compared Paul to the character Michael Corleone in The Godfather, explaining that "He's training to be the Duke. But as much as he's been prepared and trained for that role, is it really what he dreams to be? That's the contradiction of that character. It's like Michael Corleone in The Godfather–it's someone that has a very tragic fate and he will become something that he was not wishing to become."

The Egyptian-Canadian commentator Khalid M. Baheyeldin has enumerated the obviously Islamic concepts and references appearing in Dune, to the level of finding multiple similarities between the career of Herbert's Paul Atreides and that of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Beyond the obvious general resemblance—both Muhammad and Atreides found a powerful new religion, energizing hitherto disregarded desert-dwellers to topple an old empire and build a new one—Baheyeldin noted various specific similarities between Muhammad's career and that of Atreides.

In adaptations
Paul is portrayed by Kyle MacLachlan in David Lynch's 1984 film adaptation, and by Alec Newman in the 2000 Dune miniseries and its 2003 sequel. The character is played by Timothée Chalamet in the 2021 Denis Villeneuve film Dune, and its 2024 sequel, Dune: Part Two.

Richard Corliss of Time notes that "MacLachlan, 25, grows impressively in the role; his features, soft and spoiled at the beginning, take on a he-manly glamour once he assumes his mission." Lynch and producer Raffaella De Laurentiis specifically wanted to cast an unknown actor in the role of Paul, and began a nationwide search. Casting scout Elizabeth Leusting found MacLachlan, who had been performing in the Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

Laura Fries of Variety writes that "Newman, as the sour Paul, sticks to just one note". Emmet Asher-Perrin of Tor.com suggested that the choice to cast adult actor Newman as Paul is problematic because the character is written in the script as less mature and observant than he is in the source novel.

Chalamet received strong praise for his portrayal in the 2021 film. Ben Travis of Empire wrote, "Among the uniformly excellent performances, Timothée Chalamet holds his own in his first blockbuster leading role. In a film this size, there's every chance he'd get swallowed up by the sandworm-like enormity of everything around him—but even against the colossal spectacle, the magnetic charisma he displayed in smaller indie fare shines through." Pete Hammond of Deadline Hollywood called Chalamet "perfectly cast" and wrote that he plays the role "earnestly and effectively". Reviewing the 2024 sequel, Lovia Gyarke of The Hollywood Reporter wrote, "Chalamet sheds the boyish innocence of the first film for a darker, more complicated persona."

Villeneuve described Chalamet portraying Paul, "There’s a deep intelligence in the eyes, and he has an old soul. When you talk with Tim, you get the impression that he's lived many lives. Yet he looks so young on camera. So that contrast of someone who has a lot of experience but is in the middle of his teenage years is Paul." Chalamet's Paul is described as "spindly", and has "inward-looking sorrow". He is portrayed as "a boy-man [with] the patrician bone structure of an imperial hemophiliac". With Paul being 15 years old in the novel, The New York Times said, "Chalamet looks young enough for the role... and can certainly strike a Byronic pose, complete with black coat and anguished hair." Slate wrote, "Chalamet, at 28 still convincing as a juvenile, seems to have been born to play this ambivalent prince."

Merchandising
A line of Dune action figures from toy company LJN was released to lackluster sales in 1984. Styled after David Lynch's film, the collection featured a figure of Paul, as well as other characters. In October 2019, Funko announced a "Dune Classic" line of POP! vinyl figures, one of which would be Paul in a stillsuit, styled after Lynch's film. Paul and Chani were both added to Fortnite Battle Royale in October 2021. Paul also appears as a playable Operator in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare III and Call of Duty: Warzone 2.0, alongside Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, in December 2023.

Paul appears in the 1979 Avalon Hill board game Dune, the 1984 Parker Brothers game Dune, and the 1997 collectible card game Dune. The character is also featured in the 1992 video game Dune from Cryo Interactive/Virgin Interactive, and the 2001 3D video game Frank Herbert's Dune by Cryo Interactive/DreamCatcher Interactive.

title: Paul Atreides


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Talk:Driver's license/Archive 1

Untitled
In the UK, License is spelt licence when used as a noun (though the verb is to license). The US has Driver's licenses and the UK has Driving licences.

So the title "Driving license" manages to be incorrect more or less wherever you are!

I suggest standardizing on the American version, so I'm redirecting there.

Enchanter (a Brit)

 * I think "driving license" is the official Canadian term. (In the sense that it's what is printed on the licence itself.) In some US states the official term is apparently "driver license". --Zundark, Saturday, April 6, 2002

 * Nope, the Canadians follow the British usage, and have licences. So we're still looking for somewhere in the world where Driving License is correct :-)
 * It's probably time to call it a day on this on the Wikipedia is not a dictionary principle. I'm not even sure Driver's license will make much of an encyclopedia article, but I may be wrong!
 * Enchanter

 * Yes, you're right. Having checked, I find it's "driver's licence" (or "permis de conduire") in Canada. --Zundark, Saturday, April 6, 2002

licenses issued to people under 13 who live with people with disabilities?
I think this should be deleted until cited. I couldn't find anything on google remotely resembling this, and I've never heard anything of the sort. Perhaps this happens in very very rural areas, but I've worked in the disability community in many areas of the U.S., and this is the first I've ever heard of something like this. People with disabilities who don't drive generally use paratransit service when available, or get specific Medicaid funds for hiring drivers if in more remote areas. Triangular (talk) 01:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Image being used for scam emails!
Should the image of German dl not have 'SAMPLE' across it, I have today recieved an email from a scammer with the exact same image, claiming to be a real person. This is an issue of public safety.82.40.19.146 15:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * It DOES have "specimen" ("MUSTER") diagonally across it. If people can't read German, that's their own look-out! -- Arwel (talk) 22:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but it is not clearly noticeable. Also most of these scammers communicate with English speakers.  I am editing the image.

History
What is the history of drivers' licenses? What countries first issued them? Was that in the 1930's or when?

Transferring a license
There is a lot of interesting (and useful) detail about how to transfer your old license for a new one when you move. Perhaps it's not "encyclopedic", but this article already has a lot of un-encyclopedic detail, and for comparison purposes, it would be useful to have all this information in one place. As an example, if you move to Washington State in the US, you must take a "road test" to get a license, no matter how long you've been driving other places. If you move to New York, you simply need to turn in your old license, but you need to bring your actual Social Security card. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Terminology
To clarify the confusion about where it's called what:

Hong Kong: http://www.td.gov.hk/about_us/history_of_transport_department/licensing_services/development_and_changes_of_driving_licences_/hong_kong_driving_licence/index.htm (driving licence)

UK: http://dvla.gov.uk/drivers/drivers.htm (driving licence)

Ireland: http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/full_driving_licence.html (driving licence)

Singapore: http://www.spf.gov.sg/faq/ndl/ (driving licence)

United States:

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/press/archives/newddl.htm  (driver license)

http://www.mass.gov/rmv/rmvnews/2004/newids.htm (driver's license)

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/DMV/LICENSES/OPERATOR.htm (operator license)

Contrary to what the article said it is not called Driver Licence in California, it's Driver License:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/

Australia: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/downloads/licenclassindex_dl1.html (driver licence)

New Zealand: http://marcel-lancelle.de/private/fw/stf_dl_b.jpg (driver licence)

84.147.134.209 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Massachusetts
The driving age in Massachusetts is listed as 16 1/2 years old. This is untrue. You may apply for a learners permit at the age of 16 and 1 day. The minimum age to apply for a LICENSE (not a permit) is in fact 16 1/2.

 * I changed the list of driving ages...Massachusetts is no longer on the state that are not 16 years old.

 * in massachusetts, there was one age for no driver's education, and a different age for those with driver's education. I do not know if this has changed or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 08:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

history
I know from having been told by my grandad (whos 92) that 'when he was a lad' you went to collect a drivers license because you needed one for your job (ie cars were so expensive that you drove somebody elses - as their chauffeur), or (as happened for him) a superior in the army could "license" you to drive. The general population didn't have or need to have a driving license. Selphie 14:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In many cities (eg. London, Paris) in the nineteenth century cabdrivers had to be licensed, and numbers displayed on the vehicle. This seems to have been ancestral to similar licensing being spread to the population at large. Possibly other drivers, like chauffeurs, coach drivers, or freight drivers were licensed to. Hackney drivers in London were licensed (and made to wear badges) after the model of the Thames Watermen; it was resisted as a stigma. --Squid Faced Tony
 * It's interesting that when drivers licenses were introduced in Moscow in 1900, the regulations were extremely lax compared with cabrivers. Motorists should only procure neccesary papers and show the physical ability to drive before the authorities, while cabdrivers had to pass rather strict examinations. --Khathi 03:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Before motorized vehicles, there was licensing of certain classes of drivers of horsedrawn and waterborne vehicles. This should be in the history.

New York
The driving age in New York is not 17! It is illegal for people under 18 to drive in New York City unless they are New York State license holders who are 17 and have passed Driver's Education. The driving age in the rest of the state remains 16 years old. 16-17 year olds living in New York City can legally obtain a driver's license, despite the fact that they may not legally drive within New York City, and driving in the rest of the state is allowed for them. This should be corrected.

 * Corrected with notes about the graduated licensing law. Steve J 23:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

This page claims that junior license holders only need to be accompanied by a parent for the first six months of junior licensehood. I can't find that anywhere on DMV's site. I was under the impression you were restricted until you were issued a "senior" license at 18 (or 17 with driver's ed.).

Europe
Since the EU has more or less standardised their driving licence design and regulation, there should be a column "European Union". See the German Wiki-Entry for example. -217.194.34.124 11:48, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Before there were driver's licenses for automobiles, there were bicycle licenses. Read the first chapter of Franz Kafka "The Prisoner" where Josef K is arrested. The first thing that Josef K does is present his jailers with his Bicycle license and then demand that they provide identification.

In the Wright Brother News at http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/aero/wright/background/timeline/time_1899.html there is a side item regarding the first American woman to obtain a driver's license at Kitty Hawk, NC in 1899. Picture included. submitted to WIKI by Jenny Raabe

"Citizens of EU countries which have no national ID cards also have to carry their passports when traveling in these countries, whether driving or not." Now this is quite unclear, and if taken as stated would actually mean that eg. all Austrians (national ID card exists, but isn't obligatory) are required to carry a passport on them at all times, which is of course ridiculous. An Austrian not owning a national ID card needs a passport only when travelling outside of Austria (in theory even within Shengen borders), but not in Austria, where, if identification is necessary, all kinds of documents with a photograph are sufficient. Took Austria as an example as I live here and normally use my student card as only ID for banking or other commercial purposes, also when confronted (sic) with police, although I do have a passport and EU driving licence. I keep these at home, as I don't drive that often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.21.121 (talk) 11:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Driver's License History
Ok, from a few of these posts, I'll see if I can distill a few improvements to this article.

 * 1) Who came up with the concept of requiring a driver's license, when, where?

 * 2) Dates of the presentation of the idea and subsequent implementation, in the respective countries.

 * 3) Evolution of the use of these from simply permission to drive to their current use as a valid form of ID, particularly in the US. Was there any resistance from the general populace?

 * 4) State revocation of licenses for driving violations. Also, can and do states (state in both the US and general sense) revoke licenses for infractions and crimes which have nothing to do with driving? Suspension of licenses is not covered yet.

 * 5) Situations such as old folks driving? What about disqualifications for people of the age to drive who would normally be allowed to? Is there any information on mandatory revocation ages for old folks?

 * 6) Feature creep as regards driver's licenses (True story: I was talking with my friends, outside a local watering hole, after untethering my bike, and a cop demanded my driver's license. When I told him I didn't have it with me (I wouldn't have given it anyway, I'd done nothing wrong), he asked how I would prove who I was. I simply told him he'd have to take my word for it. He wasn't happy, but didn't do anything adverse.

 * 7) The future of driver's licenses in various places.

JD 06:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I've added info from the NYT archive on the earliest DL laws in North America. Unfortunately, those old articles don't exactly state when the French or Germans came up with their laws and who was first.  I guess it'll be up to French- or German-speaking WP users to do that research!  --Coolcaesar 20:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

PR China
I have heard that in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai there is an execption for foreigner to have the licence changed. They can use an international permit in order to rent a car but it can only be driven within the city limits. Can somebody confirm this? -ThorstenS 10:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Languages
Is it really necessary to have the Chinese and Japanese translations of "driver's license" on the page. The only reason the first paragraph contains all the different variations is because licenses are termed differently in different English-speaking countries. Perhaps it should be confined to the different English words for license on the English page. After all, it isn't as though driver's licenses are inherently Chinese or Japanese.

US-drivers licence
I have seen an older US-drivers licence (North Carolina) - the back side was machine readabel. is this true for all US-states. Wahat informations are coded? A picture of a back-side of an us-licence would be nice--84.137.12.100 17:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

 * There is a magnetic strip on the back of most licenses (for example, California). I vaguely recall that it may carry in a simple digital format the same textual information printed on the front of the card.  I'm not sure, though.  Anyone know more about this?  --Coolcaesar 01:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

My Texas issued drivers license also has a magnetic strip as does my friends from Ohio. Mrrightguy10 06:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Computers being social tools as opposed to cars???
Some of the reasons for decline that are listed in this article are downright absurd and show a deep lack of understanding of teenagers today. There is no way that someone would have higher social status for owning a computer rather than a car. It's also absurd to say that teenagers find that it's "more convenient" to have their parents drive them, and several points on the list are things that have remained the same for the past fifty years (ex. busy lives with atheletics and extra curricular activities). This needs to be fixed. --Berserk798 18:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. The entire list reeks of "original research" or "personal viewpoint" and should be deleted unless and until whomever contributed it can come back with supporting citations.  --Coolcaesar 23:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I was the person (under an unlogged-in name) who began the list of reasons. Many of them are found in that LA Times article mentioned. However, others have added to them. I fixed the two reasons declared "absurd" by Berserk798. I changed what was likely a misunderstanding of what the reason meant. -BrianClass07 16:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

PSV
The article says PSV stands for "Passenger Service Vehicle", isn't it supposed to be "Public Service Vehicle"? The information about PSV licences in the UK appears accurate.

NPOV
I saw this in the US section: "and more recently, the so called war on terror." Isn't that POV? I can't figure out what exactly to change it to though. --Mosquitopsu 20:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

needs cleaned up
This article needs some moderate cleaning up, as well as the expulsion of certain, ahhhh shall we say "author commentary" contained therein (ie there are a few opinion pieces)

 * I concur. This article is a MESS! Unfortunately, I'm not a transportation lawyer, so I don't know where to begin cleaning it up. --Coolcaesar 03:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Suez, and the queen
Footnote 5 points to a DVLA press release giving various facts about the history of licensing in the UK. One of these is that driving tests were suspended during the Suez Crisis. Why was this done? Can anyone add this information? Another fact, given in the paragraph but not appearing in the source, is that the queen doesn't require a driving licence. This is plausible, as she doesn't require a passport since they are issued in her name, but still, it needs a source. The footnoting as it stands is misleading, as the page linked to says nothing about the queen. 86.136.94.95 02:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Major article restructure
I have performed a significant restructure/shift-around of this article in an attempt to improve its quality and coherence. It made sense to me to shift the history section from the bottom of the article to the top, and also place generic sections (like organ donation and its use as identification) up the top, before launching into specifics about driver's licenses in different countries. I also rearranged the country specifics section to alphabetical order, because previously there seemed to be no order to it whatsoever (perhaps the order in which people added them to the article?). I have also split Canada off from the United States and given it its own section, because most of the joint section consisted of paragraphs starting with "In the U.S.", indicating there isn't too much similarity between the two countries' systems.

There may be residual repetition in the article, and also instances of over-linking (or not linking the first instance of a word, but linking a later instance). Please do clean these up if you see them.

Finally, the "Australia" section is quite incoherent and hodge-bodge. It is NSW-centric and needs to be fixed. I might get around to it another late night. - Mark 15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Word Choice Issue
I have a pretty big issue with some lines of text in this article tipified by this example from the third to last paragraph on 'Australia': "...or the more grammatically correct "Driving Licence"

In what way is the term "Driving Licence" more grammatically correct than any other? What does grammaticality have to do with anything at all here? Compound noun conventions may have a grammatical tendency, but there isn't a strict grammatical structure, only convention. As a linguist, I see this point as non-factual and sorely opinionated. --Alex DG 15:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

 * The Australia section is pretty poor and incoherent overall. I plan to overhaul it within the next week. - Mark 05:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Removed "grammatically correct". Tocharianne 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

International considerations
"although European Union drivers who move from one EU state to another can continue driving on their original licences until the age of 70.". This is not correct. If you move from one EU country to another (and also EEA countries like Norway and Switzerland) you have to exchange your old licence for a new one. You do not have to take another test, your old licence is accepted in lieue of a test and is sent back to the issuing country to be cancelled.

Citation: get a copy of the British driving licence application form from a Post Office. It now contains a section for exchanging a EU/EEA licence for a British one. TiffaF 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

 * This is incorrect. You may exchange another EU/EEA licence for a British one if you want to but this is not compulsory. See "Driving in Great Britain (GB) on a licence issued in a European Community/European Economic Area (EC/EEA) country" (my emphasis):

European Community and European Economic Area

Licences issued in the European Community and European Economic Area make up two groups that are treated equally. The full list is:

Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Republic of Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Romania, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom. Visitors

If you hold a valid community licence and are visiting GB, you can drive any vehicle if your licence is valid. The appropriate full entitlement for the vehicle you wish to drive must be shown on your licence. Residents

If you have a valid community licence, this will authorise you to drive in GB for the period set out below. Alternatively, you can exchange your licence for a British one at any time.

Provided your licence remains valid you may drive in GB: Car, motorcycle driving licence holders (ordinary driving licence):

* until aged 70 or for three years after becoming resident, whichever is the longer period

Lorry, minibus, bus driving licence holders (vocational driving licence):

* until aged 45 or for five years after becoming resident, whichever is the longer period * if you are aged over 45 (but under 65) until your 66th birthday or for five years after becoming resident, whichever is the shorter period * if you are aged 65 or over for 12 months after becoming resident

In order to continue driving after these periods, you must get a British driving licence. -- Arwel (talk) 22:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleaving the Article and Driver's Licence scans
I was wondering if it were possible to create a catalogue of driver's licences from different states. Is this legal? I could certainly understand the illegality of such a database, but I would be interested to see what the ID's of different states look like.

Also, we should consider cleaving this article by country, keeping the main article as a link to multiple daughter articles. Anyone object? --Reid 21:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Ages in one country and the next..
I'm a British Citizen, say I had (hypothetically) a drivers license and I was 17 would it be illegal for me to drive in Germany (who's driving age is 18), even if I was fully insured? 62.136.225.242 21:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, the driving laws of the country you are in apply, including the minimum driving age. If this were not so, and you were covered by British law in Germany, you could legally drive on the left in Germany :-). And you wouldn't be insured, because insurance is usually invalid if you don't hold a valid driving licence (which a 17-year-old can't in Germany).
 * The same applies to a 16-year-old US resident with a US driving licence, they can't legally drive in the UK.
 * Also, you get a licence from your country of residence, not citizenship. You can only get a British licence if you live in the UK, regardless of whether you are a British citizen or not. TiffaF 06:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Zacharias Moussaoui
Do we really need his drivers license on here?

Maine license requirements
Maine: 15 years and a certificate of completion from a licensed driving school to obtain a learner's permit. 16 years or 6 months following the issue date of the permit to obtain a driver's license. I'm quite sure to obtain a license, you must be at least 16 years of age. so the 'or' should be changed, as it makes it look as if you can be 15 1/2 and get a license, which is not true. --MunchableSandwich 20:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Change title to Driving Licence/License?
More nations use the 'Driving' Prefix for their licences and I think this should be the prefix as the title. My opinion is that the articles on Wikipedia are becoming more and more Americanised even when more people in different countries refer to it as a different thing. 172.206.53.14 14:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There really isn't a factual basis, one way or another, for saying that it's better to use one version of modern English over another. My personal opinion is that since Wikipedia is hosted on servers in America, and was founded by Americans, and since American is the world's best country, it should be American English. But the differences between American/Canadian and British/Australian are so small...it's just a letter here and there...that I don't think it really matters. It's not like it puts some sort of limit on the type or amount of information that the article can convey -- so it's really just a petty thing. Also, refer to WP:ENGVAR; a driver's license doesn't fall under the category of a topic with strong ties to a given country. They're used worldwide. Piercetheorganist 15:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

 * One or the other with redirects, not both. That page name suggested just looks unwieldy. Catwhoorg 15:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Also, I should that America has more native English language speakers who are also drivers. --Coolcaesar 17:10, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Motorbiking license
Is it safe to redirect that to here? Motorbikes are mentioned in the article, but I'm asking because I'm not sure if this article is about motorbiking license. TheBlazikenMaster 22:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. The motorbike licenses are some of the license categories discussed in this article. --MPorciusCato 10:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Wording issue (a petty one)
The very beginning of this article lists "driver's license" as the U.S. version of this item. I have no doubt this is the most common usage—I've heard it everywhere here—but my Texas license refers to itself as "driver license". The sample license on this page from North Carolina refers to it by the same name. How about the majority of states? If most refer to it that way, perhaps some part of the intro should make a distinction between the common name and the officially-used one? -BaronGrackle (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow---that's really cool you noticed that. I just checked out the Web sites for the CA DMV, the NY DMV, and the IL Sec. of State.  It turns out that CA and NY both use "driver license" but Illinois uses "driver's license".  Amazing.  Then I went to look in my wallet.
 * I've lived in California my whole life and I never noticed that the official DMV documents as well as the card itself actually use the term "Driver License" instead of "Driver's License." You have a really good point.  We may need to edit the lead to reflect that although the most common colloquial usage is "driver's license," the most common legal usage is "driver license." --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Vermont
I was looking at this list, and realized that Vermont is not on there. I don't know enough about editing to put the information in there, so here it is if someone else wants to put it in there. learner's permit-age 15, junior operator's license-age 16, operator's license-age 18 (I'm pretty sure about that last one, though it could be 21)junior operators are on a graduated driving level- this means that after three months they can drive siblings and after six they can drive anybody, unless there is an unimpaired adult (age is somewhere from 21-25 i think) in the passenger seat. You need to take driver's ed to get your license, unless you are 18, at which point you can go and take the test. If anyone feels like putting some of this info in the table, it would be greatly appreciated.68.142.38.107 (talk) 23:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

South Australia
I have corrected the section on South Australia to reflect the spelling and usage conventions of that state. This includes licence and licences (noun), license and licensed (verb). I have also changed Driver Licence to Driver's Licence as this is the official and common usage. Citations for this have been added. I have no doubt that similar conventions exist in the other Australian states. Ozdaren (talk) 08:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Italian driving licence
In 2009, new Italian drivers will be restricted to 50 kW per ton cars. But, they could drive a Hummer H1 on this!

Italian driving licence
In 2009, new Italian drivers will be restricted to 50 kW per ton cars. But, they could drive a Hummer H1 on this! MyWiki54 (talk) 15:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Italian driving licence
What? say again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.77.141.134 (talk) 08:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Spelling
Should the word 'license/licence' be spelled consistently throughout this article or should the spelling be changed to suit the country being referred to? Martin Hogbin (talk) 00:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I have corrected some spellings on the basis that the US spelling 'license' will be used generally throughout but where a specific license is mentioned the correct spelling for that actual license is used (eg European Licence). Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Some 'helpful' IP editor has decided to change to 'driving licence' throughout, thus losing the information on national terminology that was previously contained in the article. I have tried to restore it but somebody else need to look throufgh and check some of the terms. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

backdoor
the backdoor loophole may have been closed. i called the dvla today and asked about licence exchange. they ask if you have taken the test in the country you hold a licence in. i dont know how they verify it, but they did ask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.74.179.78 (talk) 01:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

"Driving license"
Since when has this form been in use anywhere, let alone been the standard US term as one bit of the article claims?

Looking through the article at the moment: I picked Lycos because of the various search engines I tried it's the only one that seems to search for the specific spelling. But it still isn't clear to me where the form "driving license" is standard. So it seems somewhat anomalous that this is the main form used throughout the article, especially given that it doesn't match the article's title. -- Smjg (talk) 18:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

 * As you point out, various terms and spellings are used in different parts of the world. This is discussed at the top of the article.  The consensus here has been to use the appropriate national terminology when referring to the document of a specific country or area (because that is what they are actually called) and to use US terminology (because this is how the article started) when discussing the document in general.

 * That probably makes this one of the hardest articles to edit regarding WP:Engvar but I think it is mainly correct as it is. If you find any terminology that is inconsistent with this consensus then please change it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

 * You miss the point - according to what source is "driving license" the standard US term? Besides, at the moment the article contradicts itself by not even mentioning "driving license" among the various forms given in the introductory sentence, even though it's the form that dominates the article.  ISTM if there's any reason to keep this form, it's because it isn't standard anywhere and is therefore the most neutral.  But whatever form we do standardise (or standardize) on, the article's title ought to be changed to match. -- Smjg (talk) 14:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The article was started in US English and should therefore use whatever is the standard US term when referring to the document in general. On the other hand, when referring a specific document of an identified country, we should use the actual name of that document, for example 'UK driving licence' There is no reason not to change the term used for the document in general and when referring specifically to the US document to the standard US term, which I believe is 'driver's license'.  Is this what you are suggesting?  Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

 * In the United States people normally refer to it as a "Driver's License" but, in all actuality, it is really a "Driver License" and is written so on the actual license itself. I personally have never heard anyone in the U.S. refer to it as a "Driving License". 69.122.122.147 (talk)AR

Pennyslvania
"Delaware has a reciprocal license exchange for Germany and France.[31]"

I am quite sure PA does too. Bolegash (talk) 04:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Poland
There is no law saying that one has to carry ID card along with Driving License. Only documents needed are car registration papers and aforementioned License. Furthermore, having ID card for all people above 18 years of age is mandatory but carrying it - isn't. 22:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.160.40.42 (talk)

A query
Since when have "[the] Dominican Republic, Spain, Sweden and Venezuela" been in Asia? Peridon (talk) 10:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 May 2014
Currently, the United States section states:

"The eligible age varies substantially by state. Nationally by age 16 one can obtain a license after passing the requisite tests and drive without adult supervision."

As the first sentence states there is no national law determining when one can obtain a license and it varies by state from 14 years 3 months to 17 years. The wording of that second sentence is also a bit unclear. I propose changing the sentence to read:

"The eligible age to obtain a drivers license varies substantially from state to state. In a majority of states one can obtain a license that allows driving without adult supervision by age 16, after passing the requisite tests."

Ahecht ( TALK PAGE ) 21:46, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: I endorse and support this request as non-controversial and would have made the edit myself if not for the full protection which appears inappropriate. I could see full move-protection, but there shouldn't be more than semi edit protection at best. — {{U|Technical 13}} (t • e • c) 01:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the protection wasn't over the proposed move, it was due to edit warring over spelling within the article, and whether WP:ARTCON allows different sections of the article to use different spellings for non-proper nouns. See the discussion just above the proposed name change. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Padlock-bronze-open.svg Not done: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

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Kentucky
Kentucky is listed as one of France's reciprocal states. --Troyeseffigy (talk) 21:37, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Driver's license. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100822173508/http://ogov.newswire.ca:80/ontario/GPOE/2006/02/22/c0061.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html to http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2006/02/22/c0061.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110928154346/http://www.icbc.com/licensing/lic_renew_replace_new.asp to http://www.icbc.com/licensing/lic_renew_replace_new.asp

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Driving a privilege or a right?
My understanding is that the driver's license in the US was not always required and driving was a right and not a privilege. This stands up to reason when you consider that the mode of transportation being replaced was the horse, horse driven buggy, or oxen and wagon. None of these required a license or had age restrictions. Driving animals was common place and the motorized vehicle was considered unusual. Before I left my hometown in 1971, there was a law still on the books that required drivers of automobiles to call ahead to the town constable. Ostensibly this was so he could warn the horse owners in the city that a motor vehicle was coming into town.

I would like to know exactly how the concept of licensing drivers came about and became accepted in everyday life.

Why didn't the same thing happen with aircraft and boating licenses?

Doug

 * Driving is a right not a privilege, at least in the UK it is - although some politicians seem to think the opposite. I've changed the word grant [a licence] to issue. Grant implies it's a privilege. Arcturus 18:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * In the United States the operation of a vehicle is treated as a privilege granted by the state that is revocable at any time. For example, California Vehicle Code Section 14607.4 begins as follows: "The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (a) Driving a motor vehicle on the public streets and highways is a privilege, not a right." Numerous sections of the California Vehicle Code refer to the "privilege of operating a motor vehicle" — just run a Google search.  --Coolcaesar 02:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

 * For a country that prides itself on being the beacon of democracy in the world, and yet believes that the state grants privileges to the people, is absolutely amazing. Surely it's the other way round. Still, I obviously can't argue with the facts of US law. In the UK, driving certainly isn't defined as a privilege - so far as I know, but as I alluded to earlier, there are plenty of bumptious politicians and other assorted bureaucrats who consider it so. I think the term issue licence covers all eventualities. Arcturus 12:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, although the US law identifies driving as a privilege, now a days it is really treated as a right although, it is a privilege that may still be revoked for reasons. Mac Domhnaill 01:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * When I was reading the book on Vehicle Traffic Law (which I added a cite for to the MUTCD article) there was some explanation of this. If I recall correctly, the reason for why it is treated as a privilege is due to some early legal decisions treating gasoline-powered automobiles as a public nuisance because they were noisy and extremely dangerous.  Because states have plenary power to ban public nuisances, the courts reasoned that they could also ban automobiles if they wished.  In turn, automobiles are allowed to operate on the roads only at the pleasure of the state.  That's how we got from the original concept of the right of driving a wagon or stagecoach or riding a horse, etc. to the modern idea of the privilege of operating a motor vehicle.  I forgot to write down the page numbers for that section, though.  --Coolcaesar 19:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Driving a car on your own property is a right, hence the reason that a driver's license is not required to drive on your own land (though allowing a small child to do so would probably be considered endangerment). Driving on public roads is generally legally considered a privilege, which is why you need a license (that can be revoked). --SodiumBenzoate 09:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * This should be mentioned in article, some of this stuff. Also, this article should be expanded to explain whether people who refuse to learn to drive, or never get around to it simply have no viable means of identification. It says that the US has no public ID, but if this is the case, then driving isn't really a right or privilege but something expected or else one becomes an outcast. It also follows that it must be a right, because without which you would be able to give up your license (in the face of rising gas prices, for instance). Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 10:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Technically, you are not "driving" per se unless you are involved in "carriage", you are moving. Yet we use the term "driving" as we do say "zerox" me a copy when in fact you are not using a "zerox". The law does not use language saying you are "driving" a passenger automobile or station wagon. "Driving" or "operating" refers to commercial conduct in the law as "register" refers to surrender. "Vehicle" means Vessel or auxiliary of and has its roots in customs. Your STATE vehicle laws originate from usc title 49 and are not laws but regulations respecting commerce. So who actually "requires" a driver license or registration? Your insurance company. Since insurance is a maritime contract they require a maritime nexus. In CARGILL it is ruled that a license will impose no obligation if a right is to be surrendered. Nevertheless, the state dmv will be happy to accommodate you, and that is mandated by title 49. Chiefsteve —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chiefsteve (talk • contribs) 22:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Sounds like the above editor either never studied or flunked U.S. constitutional law. The states are still sovereign pursuant to the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.  The federal government exerts some jurisdiction through Spending Clause tactics like tying federal aid for highways to compliance with federal standards, but a state can always theoretically break away from the federal transportation regs.  It just has to fund its highway system on its own, that's all.  --Coolcaesar (talk) 11:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Also, the above editor is incorrect about insurance being a maritime contract and requiring a maritime nexus. I am educated in law and a licensed insurance agent in 49 states, and SOME insurance coverage is marine based, but much is not.  Inland marine coverage is to insure property being transported - that does not mean that auto, homeowners, or umbrella coverage is a marine based coverage.  Also, insurance companies do not require licenses - the law does.  Insurance companies would insure absent a driver's license if state law allowed such.12.109.73.226 (talk) 18:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC) -Subjugator

"Reception Provision of the Delaware Constitution, 1776, art. 25:: "The common law of England, as well as so much of the statute law as has been heretofore adopted in practice in this state, shall remain in force unless they shall be altered by a future law of the Legislature, such parts only excepted as are repugnant to the rights and privileges contained in this Constitution and the declaration of rights, & agreed by this convention.""-Deleware "30. No sheriff or bailiff of ours, or other person, shall take the horses or carts of any freeman for transport duty, against the will of the said freeman"-Magna Carta Delaware and some other states have this(or similar) as their law.

So there is a right to a given extent. Bolegash (talk) 04:36, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

 * You're confusing property rights with the right to operate a vehicle. The clause you refer to in Magna Carta governs the right to own a horse or cart, not the right to drive a horse or cart.  Keep in mind that many people frequently drive vehicles they do not own (either rental cars, a friend or relative's vehicle, or their employer's vehicle).  --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Legal foundation for Driving a privilege
The concept of a "democracy" is a self-governing people. The government isn't some abstract entity, it is the just all the other people in your country. The 13 colonies, in passing the Constitution, established a process of government, which allows the individual to live largely free of other's anti-social behavior. The law defines anti-social behavior. When the automobile came along in the 1900s, the anti-social behavior that arose was leaving the scene of an accident in order to evade responsibility (accountability for damages). Auto accidents brought new types of serious injuries (blindness from shattering glass shards). Driver's licensing grew out of frustration with anonymity on the road, and its undermining of accountability. Would you like to drive in a world where other's could victimize you and your loved ones on the road, without any accountability? Without being able to be identified? On balance, the great majority would rather have accountability than some libertarian distopia where individuals are free to do whatever they want. They want the group to have some reasonable level of control over the individual. Looked at this way, driving an automobile makes sense to treat as a privilege with certain responsibilities toward the welfare of others. If driving were a right (as in "inalienable"), there would be no legal basis for placing driving restrictions on the blind, the severely retarded, those with advanced Alzheimers, 5 year olds, or chronic drunks. Even after a drunk had killed several motorists, what would be the legal basis for taking away driving, if driving were a right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PbinCA (talk • contribs) 04:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

In every country that uses English as an official language the term used is Driver's Licence or Driver Licence. Only in the USA is the word "License" used. On that note Wiki certainly is demonstrating a non global position by continuing to use the word "license" as the primary format on this page. Even the Bangladesh licence you show as an example has it spelled the universal (non US) manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aamvanet (talk • contribs) 15:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

See below. There is a consensus on how to deal with this issue. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Drivers License (song) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:51, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Driver's license/Archive 1