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Talk:Marfan syndrome

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Eyes
From the article:
 * Other reported symptoms are eye lenses falling out, and the inability to see objects moving in a direct line at the watcher. Some belief that the biblical story of Goliath is based on a man suffering from Marfan syndrome, which would explain his unusual height, and why he did not avoid a stone thrown at him.

Really? Evidence for all these assertions, please.

 * Oh I'm sorry! That's is acromegaly! Compare . --Magnus Manske~

the wikipedia article on chromosome 19 lists marfan's as a disease of that gene. this article gives chromosome 15 as responsible for it. one of them must be correct. which is it?Cleobolus (talk) 17:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Merger
This entry and the one on Marfan's syndrome clearly cover the same subject, so it would be good to unify them. -- Arteitle 06:50, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Done. --Michael Snow 19:34, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lancet
The Lancet, Current Issue, Volume 366, Number 9501, 3 December 2005

 * has three articles about it. Anyone up to the job? JFW | T@lk  00:11, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Losartan anyone
Works in mice: Habashi JP et al. Science. 2006;312:117-121 JFW | T@lk  23:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Works in humans: Brooke BS et al. NEJM 358:2787 Nbauman (talk) 22:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

 * The reference 34 (Freeman, Elaine (Fall 2007). "A Silver Bullet for Blake". Johns Hopkins Magazine.) appears to be a magazine article about a young boy with Marfan's and the biography of the man leading the trial about losartan rather than a ?more reputable source. Perhaps it should be removed considering there are the resources mentioned above? RM 134.36.52.168 (talk) 00:40, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Famous People
It is not proven that Jeffry Hyman AKA Joey Ramone had this syndrome.
 * I removed his name from the list. His brother has claimed in his biography and in multiple interviews that it was never diagnosed and that he didn't have it. The source on this article was from an interview with a woman with Marfan's who mentions Ramone. It's hearsay at best. --Utilizer (talk) 05:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there any proof that Coulter has Marfan syndrome or is it just a rumor?

I added Kermit L. Hall given that from all the coverage of his sudden death that the circumstances of whatever "condition" that led to his death point to Mafans. ( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrabbleship (talk • contribs) )

I have a big problem with adding speculative entries in the Famous people section. If you add an entry, I think it's incumbent upon you to cite the source. I am more concerned with living people as adding name here tends to have the appearance of an attack edit. I am not looking for a certified death certificate that says complications from Marfan Syndrome - just some WP:RS that qualifies if for inclusion. My $.02. -- G e n e b 1 9 5 5  Talk / CVU 10:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Speaking of "Famous Sufferers" of Marfan's, I find it doubtful that Osama bin Laden has Marfan's syndrome when his own Wiki page does not support the claim. Also, this site here (http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/04/17bow01.htm, simply CTRL + F (Marfan) and you'll find the relevant paragraph) does not support the statement, as it concludes there is no firm evidence for the claim (Another site cites that page to support that fact that it is unlikely he had it). Another site simply says he does (Without any evidence, and I am doubtful that any websites can qualify as primary sources... D: ). Another Wiki Page says this :Rumores dizem que Osama bin Laden também tem a Síndrome. Or, roughly translated, Rumours say that Osama has this syndome. The evidence seems to be, on the affirmative: Osama is lanky and tell, a bit like Lincoln (Or apparently Kerry). On the negative: Most people suffering from Marfan syndome are not likely to have well developed musculature. 24.89.197.136 01:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

To which of the 30 or so Robert Johnsons does this section intend to refer?

 * This section is somewhat problematic, I tagged it as needing sources. We need them for everything, but doubly so when we start diagnosing people who are still alive... - cohesion 02:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"I find it doubtful that Osama bin Laden has Marfan's syndrome when his own Wiki page does not support the claim." Someone has an inordinate trust in Wiki pages! At any rate, he may have had it and there are some unofficial sources (news agencies etc.) that support this. of course it is generally thought that Lincoln had Marfans. Gingermint (talk) 00:42, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Dural Ectasia
I added this to the requested articles list. Anyone care to take it on? I suffer from it, but am not a medical practitioner. So I'm looking for professional knowledge, not just web references that I can find on my own.
 * Dural ectasia --WS 22:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Symptoms
I did some major revising of the symptoms section. I felt it read too much like a description of the disease, and not a description of how the symptoms present themselves. A paragraph still needs to be added on pneumothorax, because this is sometimes the first sign/symptom to show itself in individuals with the disease. The section also needs to have more references added. Leeirons 02:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Bin Laden?
People have said that Osama Bin Laden has it? Could this be true? He certainly shows symptoms of it, also John Kerry does, but this isn't proven anywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.71.226.21 (talk) 22:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

Osama bin Laden is mentioned as having Marfan syndrome in this article: www.washingtontimes.com --Mycatlikesgarlic (talk) 12:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

 * We need a better reference than the one currently used, as it actually states that Osama died of Marfan's in 2001. LWG talk 14:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

This may be true. Unfortunately, outside of "official sources" saying so, there is nothing known of Bun Laden. Gingermint (talk) 00:44, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Grafitti Attacks on the Article
I have reviewed the history of changes over the past few weeks and have noticed an occassional graffito is written into the article. The vandals perpetrating these attacks usually do it without logging in, thus leaving no contributor trace. I recommend that whenever any of the responsibly acting contributors log in to do some more editing, first look at the most recent edit. If it is an anonymous edit, just revert the article to the previous edit before doing more edits. Leeirons 13:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It only takes a moment more to do a diff, and leave the appropriate  on the users page, thus helping reduce vandalism long term. Rich Farmbrough, 13:57 19  December 2006 (GMT).
 * I figured out how to do the diff, but what do you mean about "leave the appropriate test on the users page"? What does a "test" accomplish? :-) Leeirons 14:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I nearly always do a diff anyway after clicking on the history tab, but I did not know that it was possible to edit without logging in. Are you wrong? Snowman 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, you can (generally) edit without logging in; the edit then shows up with your IP address as the username. —RuakhTALK 18:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I count that as logged on with IP address (although not signed in with a personal name). He was actually stating the obvious. btw. Snowman 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * But there's nothing "logged on" about it … —RuakhTALK 21:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry, I just made some edits without logging on. I entered comments on the changes made, so it should be obvious that my anonymous entries are not grafitti. Leeirons 03:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I made an edit a few days ago (just a grammar correction) but I do not have an account. Sorry for any trouble, just wanted to make sure no one uncorrects my correction. (Zippydaspinhead - 10:30 CMT, 6 February 2007)

What kind of a sick, twisted individual would deface an article like this? I have Marfan's syndrome, and I'm disgusted sometimes by people's utter lack of caring with respect to folks like me. I'm not taking it personally; I'm just amazed at how easily some can kick a man when he is down. On the other hand, I suppose that this is why the KKK exists. And yes -- Hitler WOULD have killed anyone with Marfan's, if he knew about it. SammyJames 01:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)SammyJames

Well Known Persons
This list used to be very long and then was trimmed down due to lack of citations. It is beginning to grow again. I recommend that each new name should include a citation, or don't even bother adding it. Leeirons 14:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I added citations for the three that were missing them.AlexMc 08:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And added one person along with citation. AlexMc 08:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Pulled the only non-notable person off the list. Hint: if they're not on Wikipedia, they're probably not all THAT prominent...--MattShepherd 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think i read in a book that a famous violin player... Paganini or Pa... i forgot the name :( It was said that he was able to play in very awkward ways because he could overstretch his fingers a lot. Maybe someone of you guys finds the book, its almost 10 years since i read that and i read it only once :/ all i know was that he was a great violin player of his time (i think he was italian but i aint sure..) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.108.103.172 (talk) 00:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Niccolò Paganini is indeed said to owe his virtuosity to Marfan. Riyadi (talk) 20:36, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Heads-up: Joey Ramone probably didn't have Marfan syndrome. I don't know why very tall people always get slapped with that diagnosis. . . anyhow, you won't find a reference for it anywhere. I looked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danierrr (talk • contribs) 18:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Giant baba also had marfan's syndrom. He's one of the biggest japanese pro wrestlers of all time. He died in 1999. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.205.105.15 (talk) 16:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Pharoah
The pharoah link is dead, though I also heard this assertion at the King Tut travelling exhibit. Does anyone have a new link for this information? Johhny "Appleseed" Chapman may have had it also. 71.202.53.228 (talk) 22:59, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

WPCD
I think the article should be considered for the WPCD again as it has been a WikiProjects Medicine project of the week and has had a lot of improvements. Snowman 10:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Nice work
I'd just like to say that editors here have done a stellar job on the article. It is written in an intelligent but not alienating tone and provides a lot of information about this disorder.

Many of our health and medicine related articles I come across are incomplete and/or written at either a far too academic, or kindergarten level of explanation. This is very comprehensive. And well presented to cap it off.

My only criticism at present is that it lacks any footnotes in the the "symptoms" section.

Good job guys.--ZayZayEM (talk) 06:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not clear whether Lincoln should be excluded
I followed the two references that follow the sentence "Abraham Lincoln was once believed to have suffered from Marfan Sydrome, although recent research has argued that he probably did not.[28][29]". It turns out that neither of them conclude that he did not have Marfan's. They only note that there is some debate. Therefore this seems like a mis-citation.yes it does  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.90.245.210 (talk) 04:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I have heard that there is some debate, but I have never seen it in print. I have a doctorate in American History. Gingermint (talk) 00:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Ghent criteria
apparently lists the most recent diagnostic criteria. JFW | T@lk  00:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Hammertoes
My step dad, like his famous brother John Tavener, has Marfan syndrome, as does his son. Both my step father and step brother have a condition called hammer toes where their toes grow out at slightly perpendicular angles. They tell me that this is a common condition for Marfan sufferers, but it's not listed in the symptoms page so I'm adding it.Juggertrout (talk) 00:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Michael Phelps
I read in the Sydney Morning Herald that they test him for Mafans every year. Does anyone know if this is true? - Tbsdy lives (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The citation for Phelps having marfan goes to a book where he states he had marfan like symptoms, but not marfan. Maybe he should be taken off the list of famous people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.23.202 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Recent additions have added Michael Phelps to the list of well known people who have or are believed to have Marfan’s. One edit was uncited, one was incorrectly cited, and the most recent one (now removed) cited something called "clevelandleader.com" (The Cleveland Leader), a website which appears to be a news blog.  A few points:
 * This claim involves a living person, and such a claim must be cited to a reliable source.
 * A news blog (clevelandleader) is not a reliable source for a medical diagnosis.
 * The article in question relies on Phelps own book, but the book itself does not support the interpretation placed on it by the article. Also see ;.
 * At most the book says that Phelps may have a few of the physical attributes of those with the syndrome; there is no determination that he actually has it or is reliably believed to have it.
 * Accordingly the claim does not belong in the article. Kablammo (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)  (updated; Kablammo (talk) 23:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC))

People "believed to have" Marfan's
The listing of living people who are "believed" or "suspected" to have Marfan syndrome should be modified to list only those people who have been diagnosed with the condition. We have seen how journalists can turn a few symptoms into a diagnosis. WP:RS and WP:BLP should apply here. Kablammo (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have modified the section to eliminate those "believed to have" the syndrome, and expanded the hidden comment to require a valid reliable source confirming an actual diagnosis. Wikipedia should not engage in speculation nor repeat speculation, particularly about living persons.  Kablammo (talk) 02:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As the "speculative claims" section continued to attract rumors concerning living persons based on irresponsible "journalism", and as many of the names of historic figures had no citation, the list has been eliminated and only those names which are cited to a source have been retained. Kablammo (talk) 02:05, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Osama Bin Laden does not have marfan Syndrome because he is short and some people, such as myself have large hands. it is not a valid arguement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.175.88.246 (talk) 15:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Does anybody know about Mick Fleetwood of Fleetwood Mac? I'm a 195cm Marfanic myself, and on some older album covers Fleetwood looks taller and thinner than I (he's been cited as being 198cm tall), with pectus excavatum and very thin arms and wrists. Harjasusi (talk) 14:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS; a very reliable source would be needed at any rate. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Free full-text review
This 2008 review is available online and could be used to revise, update the article. I've added it to the Epidemiology section with refname=PMID18506019. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 02:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Phelps again
I have reverted this addition, because it misrepresented the source. Whether correctly written text could be added to the article is open to consensus; I don't see a need for it. (See above section.) Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Unclear Information
From the article:
 * "In addition to being a connective protein that forms the structural support for tissues outside the cell, the normal fibrillin-1 protein binds to another protein, transforming growth factor beta (TGF-β).[2] TGF-β has deleterious effects on vascular smooth muscle development and the integrity of the extracellular matrix. Researchers now believe that secondary to mutated fibrillin there is excessive TGF-β at the lungs, heart valves, and aorta, and this weakens the tissues and causes the features of Marfan syndrome."

These two pieces of information are contradictory and really don't make any sense at all. If it is true that in the Marfan disorder that TGF-β has deleterious effects on the ECM in the lungs, etc, then why on earth would normal fibrillin-1 bind to TGF-β and thereby have it end up causing problems in these tissues. I think that it should read "Mutated fibrillin-1 binds to TGF-β resulting in abnormally higher levels of the latter in these tissues resulting in the observed symptoms and phenotype..." Normal obviously means wild-type and would emcompass unaffected individuals. Can we have a better reference to primary literature or have a primary researcher opine please?

OK, nevermind, The latter paragraph explains it better, but this should be more smoothly and eloquently described earlier, but another suggestion to change to make it more clear:

Transforming growth factor beta (TGFβ) plays an important role in Marfan syndrome. Fibrillin-1 indirectly binds a latent form of TGFβ keeping it sequestered and unable to exert its biological activity. The simplest model of Marfan syndrome suggests that reduced levels of fibrillin-1 or more precisely haploinsufficiency (less wild-type fibrillin-1 capable of sequestering the TGFβ along with more of the mutated fibrillin-1 that is incapable of doing so) allows TGFβ levels to rise due to inadequate sequestration. Although it is not proven how elevated TGFβ levels are responsible for the specific pathology seen with the disease — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1PhDScientist1 (talk • contribs) 15:23, March 13, 2010

 * I'm a bit unsure about some of the genetic information in this article. Isn't the evidence itself still rather uncertain still?  Maybe we should cut back the more specific claims?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flatronal (talk • contribs) 14:37, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I also agree there is trouble here. My edits tonight, 02 Feb 2014, hope to address this. I clarify that the disease comes from mis-regulation of TGF-B (in this case, improper sequestration and resulting increase of free circulating TGF-B) and not from TGF-B alone. Also, the former wording of these sections is a bit clunky, as noted here, since the disease etiology was completely revised after Dietz's work ~2005. So, some resolution between the old "its a structural connective tissue disease" and the new " its TGF-B" was needed. January2009 (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)January2009

'Syndome' confusion
The first sentence: 'Marfan syndrome (also called Marfan's syndrome) is a genetic disorder of the connective tissue.' is wrong. A syndome (Marfan's or any other) is just a collection of symptoms. It is not a genetic disorder of anything. A genetic disorder may cause a syndrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.69.219 (talk) 17:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that the article is titled with the most commonly used name in medical publications. Also, the definition of a syndrome is not as restrictive as you say. As our wikipedia page points out, there is also Down syndrome (i.e. a genetic disorder) and many others. Lesion  ( talk ) 22:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Osama bin Laden
Please read WP:MEDRS; we don't report medical speculation from the laypress. Unless a reliable medical source discusses bin Laden and Marfan, please do not add it here. A ten-year-old speculative report from salon.com is not a reliable medical source, nor is the article even remotely conclusive. The BBC is another laysource that frequently gets medical information wrong, and even they say that the Marfan reports are "sketchy" and "wishful thinking". These are not the kinds of sources we use to report medical info, particularly when the accounts are sketchy. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 13:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

urinary & fecal incontinence secondary to dural ectasia in marfanoid syndromes...
While working on the former 2 articles, I found that dural ectasia can cause UI and FI, and is according to this article is one of the diagnostic criteria of this condition. Since these are major symptoms that might be the first presenting feature (people tend to notice them rather than many of the other symptoms listed here), maybe this should be mentioned in brackets after mentioning dural ectasia? Just a thought. First ref I found, listed on pubmed as a review, but looks like a case report, not sure if we can use it... Lesion ( talk ) 14:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits about intelligence in Marfan syndrome
After a very brief search I could not find any MEDRS source to support any statement about intelligence in Marfan syndrome. Of the 2 sources currently used, 1 is some kind of popular blog and the other a primary source, neither is MEDRS imo. Lesion ( talk ) 10:34, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Notable society and culture section or trivia list?
"Austin Carlile of the metalcore band Of Mice & Men has the disease. His mother had it also, and passed away due to it.[62]"

How notable is this? and for that matter other "trivia" in the society section. It reads like a mixture of actual notable historical individuals - e.g. Lincoln, inter-spaced with trivia about non notable people. In MEDMOS it states that trivia sections should be avoided, and this society and culture section is really just a random list of people who have (or who are thought to have) marfan's syndrome. This is not what the society and culture section is really for. I think some of these people are living too.

"Vincent Schiavelli, an actor and spokesperson for the National Marfan Foundation."

--I read the link and this person did not die of aortic dissection as suggested in the content. There is no info about how they contributed to public awareness about marfan's, please provide a proper source for this statement. Potentially this person is notable to include but the source provided is not suitable for the statement above.

I am removing what I feel is the non notable content. Anyone wishing to re-add this content please use the talk page to justify why you think it is notable.

So what we have left is some very famous musicians, Lincoln and 2 "celebrities" who died of aortic dissection publicly. I think this is notable and this is the standard we should follow, not just adding anyone who has the syndrome. Lesion ( talk ) 19:42, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

 * As shown by the sections above and the history of the article, it long has had some attributes of a coatrack, which now is under control. I agree with your changes, except for Schiavelli.  It is undisputed that he had the condition, and was a spokesman for the Marfan Foundation.  He therefore "affected the popular perception of a condition, such as through public awareness campaigns or enduring media coverage".  See WP:MEDMOS.  I therefore restored him to the article.  Kablammo (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

 * I thought this individual was likely to be notable to include, however the source did not support the statement that he contributed significantly to public awareness (can't remember exact previous wording). You have restored the same source, to support the statement that he was actor and spokesperson for the National Marfan Foundation, which no-one can argue with. Would be good to get another source describing their work as part of that foundation too. Lesion  ( talk ) 23:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This one may do: " Mr. Schiavelli raises the public profile of a syndrome most people know little about".  Kablammo (talk) 03:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Looks there is an intermittent edit war now. Please read the above about notability. Lesion ( talk ) 10:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Hatnote - really necessary?

 * We link to Antoine Marfan a few times in the article already, notably a few lines down fro this hatnote in the lead.

 * Mafan in Iran has a population of 43. How notable is this for a hatnote on this page, especially considering the linked page is not spelt "Marfan" but "Mafan"?

I'm going to remove the entire hatnote, not just the recent addition as I don't think it can be justified as being needed. Lesion ( talk ) 22:13, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Neither is needed.  Kablammo (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Ghent Diagnostic criteria
Thank you whoever has written that new section. Suggest:

 * Put Ghent criteria before that huge, mostly unreferenced list we still have in the diagnosis section. The Ghent criteria are the most widely accepted? If so then this list holds more weight than our list, and it should go first.
 * remove from the original list all the signs and symptoms which are now mentioned in the Ghent criteria... don't need to mention them twice
 * some of the terms used in the Ghent criteria need explanation, e.g. "thumb sign", "aortic root Z"-- jargon to most people I would imagine. Lesion  ( talk ) 10:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Agreed about aortic root z score -- it ought to be explained.
 * Burressd (talk) 16:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Surgical mesh
"A new simpler corrective operation has recently been developed, following a proposal from a sufferer, Tal Golesworthy, who was concerned at the prospect of the constraints (especially the risks from the required blood-thinning medication) following the traditional tissue replacement operation. An engineer with no medical background, he suggested that a sleeve of medical-grade mesh wrapped around the aorta would prevent the potentially fatal inelastic stretching. After four years of medical testing and preparation, he himself became the first patient of the new approach.  Since then more than 40 people with similar conditions have benefitted."

Whilst BBC is generally reliable, it is not really a suitable medical source, per WP:MEDRS. Having said that this is potentially worthy of inclusion in the article, potentially in a "research" section since it sounds like it is still fairly new and not widely used. Lesion ( talk ) 22:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Society and culture
I don't understand why this section is as currently composed. Additions of current notable people who have Marfan syndrome are removed, but society and culture has several names where there were merely rumors. There is no evidence they actually had it. "Studies suggest that Akhenaten, a Pharaoh of the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, may have suffered from Marfan's syndrome" OK, so what? "Geneticists no longer believe Abraham Lincoln had the disease" That may belong in Lincoln's article, but I don't see why it merits mention here.  Enigma msg  06:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Better to have the bar set high with regards notability. We should not let the society and culture section sink to it's previous state of being a "freak show" trivia list which gives as many names as possible, most of which have no other connection with the condition aside the diagnosis. As genetic disorders go, marfan's is not rare... we will be up to our tits in K list celebrities very quickly if we are not careful. 194.42.240.60 (talk) 07:09, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:MEDMOS we should limit such mentions. But the literature apparently contains numerous discussions of the pharoah and the president (and in fact our article at one time followed the then-common belief that Lincoln has the syndrome) so perhaps they are sufficiently widespread enough to warrant a mention here. If memory serves, there was a relatively recent edit again stating that Lincoln has Marfan (likely by someone not familiar with the new consensus), even after the article was changed to negate that. While the article may not suffer from the absence of these two items, it may take more work to maintain it thereafter. Kablammo (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand not including every notable person who ever had Marfan's, I just can't reconcile that with including rumors and innuendo about a pharaoh and Abraham Lincoln. Discussing what disease Lincoln might've had is silly. Anyone who is curious can look at the Lincoln articles. As for the pharaoh, there's a lot more coverage now of recent cases of people having Marfan's than of the total coverage by scholars or what have you about an ancient figure who may or may not have had a genetic disorder.  Enigma msg  02:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Lincoln and Pharoah are definitely notable historical figures to mention in relation to this condition. Historically, people thought that these figures had marfans, so it is good to include to get the record straight, so to speak. 92.41.80.13 (talk) 10:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I shortened the text slightly and got rid of some detail best handled elsewhere. I hope that is an acceptable compromise.
 * As to other public figures who have, had, or believed to have had Marfan: If their condition contributes to the lasting public understanding of the syndrome, they can be included.  But the mere fact that someone had the disease should not, without more, be a reason to include them, regardless of their fame in music, sports, or other fields.  Kablammo (talk) 19:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks better to me, cheers.  Enigma msg  05:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Just curious why no living people? Wouldn't it be worthwhile to show healthy individuals living with Marfan, like Peter Mayhew? There are citations all over his wiki entry about Marfan. I just don't want people to hear about Isaiah Austin losing his career over this disorder and think that's the fate of people with Marfan. Adding someone like Peter Mayhew would add understanding that every case of Marfan is different in severity and some people may live to old age and have successful careers despite it. Mellison86 (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Diagnosis section
Are the Ghent Criteria the most widely use world wide? Should they be moved to the first section of the diagnosis section in that case?

Also, I think it is unnecessary to repeat things again in that 3 column list that have already appeared in the Ghent criteria. 188.29.83.183 (talk) 14:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Celebrities
Howdy! I'm a marf myself and am a member of several sites/forums/etc dealing with the topic. One thing that comes up often is "Did XXXX have Marfan Syndrome?", where XXXX is a celebrity. I'm compiling a list of suspected celebs, and listing as "Confirmed", "Debunked", "Rumored" with source links for verification. Would this be a welcome addition on this page or possibly another page? I know there's pages for "Notable German Americans" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_Americans), so precedence does exist.

Trollboy665 (talk) 23:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

 * A separate List of notable people who had the condition, or category, may be the best way to handle them. Kablammo (talk) 18:02, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

People who have/had Marfans
As mentioned above and in the archives, this article is not the place for a list of folks with Marfans. See the relevant section of the Manual of Style for medical subject matter. Kablammo (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

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I have just modified one external link on Marfan syndrome. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130616123935/http://marfan.org/marfan/2635/APR--NMF-Mourns-Vincent-Schiavelli to http://www.marfan.org/marfan/2635/APR--NMF-Mourns-Vincent-Schiavelli

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"cases"
Per WP:MEDMOS we generally don't have sections like this as they just become BLP violations/gossip mongering like this and as the edit comments visible in the wikitext below try to warn against. We do discuss notable cases if they contributed in some significant way to the history of disease.

 * Society and culture

Contributors to public perception of Marfan syndrome include:

 * Studies suggest that Akhenaten, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, may have had Marfan's syndrome.
 * Isaiah Austin, a basketball player who was diagnosed with it, and forced to postpone his dream of an NBA career.
 * Bradford Cox, frontman of the band Deerhunter.
 * Austin Carlile, former frontman of the band Of Mice and Men.
 * Flo Hyman, an Olympic silver medalist in women's volleyball (1984) who died suddenly at a match from an aortic dissection.
 * Jonathan Larson, author and composer of Rent, who also died from aortic dissection the day before the opening of the musical.
 * Abraham Lincoln was once thought to have had the disease, but that view has been contested, and considered to be unlikely by modern geneticists. Conclusive confirmation through DNA testing is not possible, as access to Lincoln's DNA was denied.
 * Peter Mayhew, the actor who played Chewbacca in the Star Wars franchise, has been diagnosed with Marfan syndrome and owes his height to it.
 * Vincent Schiavelli, an actor, food writer and spokesperson for The Marfan Foundation (then named the National Marfan Foundation), who had the syndrome, but died from an unrelated cause.
 * Sir John Tavener, English composer.
 * Javier Botet, a Spanish actor notable for his roles in Mama and It (2017) has been diagnosed with Marfan syndrome, making use of it to portray characters that could be considered unnerving.

-- Jytdog (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

 * Agreed. A category should be sufficient.  Kablammo (talk) 00:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Jonathan Larson had a major influence on awareness regarding the condition. Agree with removal off all the rest. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Marfan syndrome. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090820135536/http://www.marfan.org/marfan/2320/Features/ to http://www.marfan.org/marfan/2320/Features
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090906014018/http://www.marfan.org/marfan/2711/Dental-Issues to http://www.marfan.org/marfan/2711/Dental-Issues

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:01, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Request for review of recent addition
, could you look at the recent addition to the last paragraph of the Surgery section?

Some years ago I removed this addition as it did not seem to me to be a reliable source. While the first sentence of the paragraph addition is better sourced, that source is not a review article (although the procedure appears promising).

Best wishes, Kablammo (talk) 16:54, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Have adjusted it based on the source. Your thoughts? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:14, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

 * It looks good. I've been unclear on whether and how we report new developments which are not yet discussed in reviews. It looks like we can mention them without making qualitative assertions until they have been the subject of reviews. Kablammo (talk) 13:23, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

See Also Section
Added "Nail Patella Syndrome" which is another connective tissue disease with similar phenotypes. I am pointing this out as the NPS page on Wikipedia is poorly written in comparison and the similarity may not be obvious to a casual reader.

Joey Ramone
Hey!

As far as I know, Joey Ramone of The Ramones had Marfan’s Syndrome.

Perhaps he could be added to the famous people section.

Cheers, LC 2A10:8001:CCF6:0:48A9:9730:EF4E:1EFD (talk) 13:37, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marfan syndrome


text:
Southern Schleswig

Southern Schleswig (Südschleswig or Landesteil Schleswig, Sydslesvig; Söödslaswik) is the southern half of the former Duchy of Schleswig in Germany on the Jutland Peninsula. The geographical area today covers the large area between the Eider river in the south and the Flensburg Fjord in the north, where it borders Denmark. Northern Schleswig, congruent with the former South Jutland County, forms the southernmost part of Denmark. The area belonged to the Crown of Denmark until Prussia and Austria declared war on Denmark in 1864. Denmark wanted to give away the German-speaking Holsten and set the new border at the small river Ejderen. Prussian chancellor Otto von Bismarck concluded that this justified a war, and even proclaimed it a "holy war". He also turned to the Emperor of Austria, Franz Joseph I of Austria for help. A similar war in 1848 had gone poorly for the Prussians. With Prussia's modern weapons and the help from both the Austrians and General Moltke, the Danish army was destroyed or forced to make a disorderly retreat. The Prussian-Danish border was then moved from the Elbe up in Jutland to the Kongeåen creek.

After the First World War, two referendums decided a new border. The northern part reverted to Denmark as Nordslesvig (North Slesvig). But the middle and southern part, including Schleswig's only city, Flensburg, remained in what since the unification of Germany had become German hands. In Denmark, the loss of Flensborg caused a political crisis, Påskekrisen or the Easter Crisis, as it happened during the Easter of 1920. After the Second World War the area remained as German territory and, with Holstein, formed the new state of Schleswig-Holstein as a part of the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) in 1948.

History
The Schleswig lands north of the Eider river and the Bay of Kiel had been a fief of the Danish Crown since the Early Middle Ages. The southern Holstein region belonged to Francia and later to the Holy Roman Empire, but it was held as an imperial fief by the Danish kings since the 1460 Treaty of Ribe.

The Schleswig-Holstein Question was first brought to a head during the Revolutions of 1848, when, from 1848 to 1851, revolting German-speaking National liberals backed by Prussia fought for the separation of Schleswig and Holstein from Denmark in the First Schleswig War. Though the status quo ante bellum was restored, the conflict lingered on, and on 1 February 1864 Prussian and Austrian troops crossed the Eider, sparking off the Second Schleswig War, after which Denmark had to cede Schleswig and Holstein according to the Treaty of Vienna. After the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, victorious Prussia took control over all Schleswig and Holstein but was obliged by the Peace of Prague to hold a referendum in predominantly Danish-speaking Northern Schleswig, which it never did.

After the German defeat in World War I, the Schleswig Plebiscites were decreed by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles, in which the present-day German-Danish border was drawn. The border took effect on 15 June 1920, dividing Schleswig into a southern and northern part and leaving a considerable Danish and German minority on both sides.

Modern day
Southern Schleswig is part of the German state (Bundesland) of Schleswig-Holstein, thus its denotation as Landesteil Schleswig. It does not, however, form an administrative entity, but instead consists of the districts (Landkreise) of Schleswig-Flensburg, Nordfriesland, the urban district (Kreisfreie Stadt) of Flensburg and the northern part of Rendsburg-Eckernförde (former district of Eckernförde plus the historic Hohner Harde).

Besides Standard German, Low Saxon dialects (Schleswigsch) are spoken, as well as Danish (Standard Danish or South Schleswig Danish) and its South Jutlandic variant, plus North Frisian in the west. Danish and North Frisian are official minority languages. Many of the inhabitants who speak only German and not Danish do not consider the region any different from the rest of Schleswig-Holstein. This notion is disputed by those defining themselves as Danes, South Schleswigans or Schleswigans, particularly historians and people organised in the institutions of the Danish minority of Southern Schleswig, such as the South Schleswig Voter Federation, a political party representing the Danish and North Frisian minorities in the Landtag of Schleswig-Holstein and exempted from the 5% electoral threshold. Many of the last names found in the region are very often of Scandinavian or Danish form, with the -sen endings like Petersen.

The major cities of Southern Schleswig are Flensburg, the city of Schleswig, Eckernförde and Husum.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Southern Schleswig


text:
County Donegal

County Donegal (Contae Dhún na nGall) is a county of Ireland in the province of Ulster and in the Northern and Western Region. It is named after the town of Donegal in the south of the county. It has also been known as County Tyrconnell or Tirconaill (Tír Chonaill), after the historic territory. Donegal County Council is the local council and Lifford is the county town.

The population was 167,084 at the 2022 census.

Name
County Donegal is named after the town of Donegal in the south of the county.

It has also been known by the alternative name County Tyrconnell or Tirconaill (Tír Chonaill, meaning 'Land of Conall'). The latter was its official name between 1922 and 1927. This is in reference to the túath or Gaelic kingdom of Tír Chonaill (on which the county was based) and the earldom that succeeded it.

History

County Donegal was the home of the once-mighty Clann Dálaigh, whose best-known branch was the Clann Ó Domhnaill, better known in English as the O'Donnell dynasty. Until around 1600, the O'Donnells were one of Ireland's richest and most powerful native Irish ruling families. Within Ulster, only the Uí Néill (known in English as the O'Neills) of Tír Eoghain (Tirowen or modern Tyrone) were more powerful. The O'Donnells were Ulster's second most powerful clan or ruling family from the early 13th century through to the start of the 17th century. For several centuries, the O'Donnells ruled Tír Chonaill (Tyrconnell), a túath or Gaelic kingdom in west Ulster that covered almost all of modern County Donegal. The head of the O'Donnell family had the titles An Ó Domhnaill (meaning The O'Donnell in English) and Rí Thír Chonaill (meaning King of Tír Chonaill in English). Based at Donegal Castle in Dún na nGall (modern Donegal Town), the O'Donnell Kings of Tír Chonaill were traditionally inaugurated, from the 1460s onwards, at Doon Rock near Kilmacrennan. The O'Donnell's royal or chiefly power was finally ended in what was then the newly created County Donegal in September 1607, following the Flight of the Earls from Portnamurray, near Rathmullan. The modern County Arms of County Donegal (dating from the early 1970s) was influenced by the design of the old O'Donnell royal arms. The County Arms is the official coat of arms of both County Donegal and Donegal County Council.

The modern County Donegal was made a shire by order of the English Crown in 1585. The English authorities at Dublin Castle formed the new county by amalgamating the old Kingdom of Tír Chonaill with the old Lordship of Inishowen. Although detachments of the Royal Irish Army were stationed there, the Dublin authorities were unable to establish control over Tír Chonaill and Inishowen until after the Battle of Kinsale in 1602. Full control over the new County Donegall was only achieved after the Flight of the Earls in September 1607. It was the centre of O'Doherty's Rebellion of 1608 with the key Battle of Kilmacrennan taking place there. The county was one of those 'planted' during the Plantation of Ulster from around 1610 onwards. What became the City of Derry was officially part of County Donegal up until 1610.

County Donegal was one of the worst affected parts of Ulster during the Great Famine of the late 1840s in Ireland. Vast swathes of the county were devastated, with many areas becoming permanently depopulated. Vast numbers of County Donegal's people emigrated at this time, chiefly through Foyle Port.

The Ballymanus mine disaster occurred on 10 May 1943 on a beach at Ballymanus, County Donegal, when local villagers attempted to bring ashore an unexploded marine mine. Eighteen men and boys between the ages of 13 and 34 were killed in the explosion.

Effects of partition
The partition of Ireland in the early 1920s severely affected County Donegal. Partition cut the county off, economically and administratively, from Derry, which had acted for centuries as the county's main port, transport hub and financial centre. Derry, together with west Tyrone, was henceforward in a new, different jurisdiction which remained within the United Kingdom, officially called Northern Ireland. Partition also meant that County Donegal was now almost entirely cut off from the rest of the jurisdiction in which it now found itself, the new dominion called the Irish Free State (later called Ireland from 1937). The county is physically connected to the rest of the Republic of Ireland by an internal border of only a few kilometres. The existence of a border cutting County Donegal off from its natural hinterlands in Derry City and West Tyrone greatly exacerbated the economic difficulties of the county after partition. The county's economy is particularly susceptible, like that of Derry City, to the currency fluctuations of the euro against sterling.

Added to all this, in the late 20th century, County Donegal was adversely affected by The Troubles in Northern Ireland. The county suffered several bombings and assassinations. In June 1987, Constable Samuel McClean, a Donegal man who was a serving member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), was shot dead by the Provisional Irish Republican Army (Provisional IRA) at his family home near Drumkeen. In May 1991, the prominent Sinn Féin politician Councillor Eddie Fullerton was assassinated by the Provisional IRA's opponent, the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), at his home in Buncrana. This added further to the economic and social difficulties of the county, although the greater economic and administrative integration with Northern Ireland, following the Good Friday Agreement of April 1998, has been of benefit to the county.

Donegal has been labelled the "forgotten county" by its own politicians, owing to the perception that it is ignored by the government, even in times of crisis.

Geography and subdivisions
Located in the northwest corner of Ireland, Donegal is the island's northernmost county. In terms of size and area, it is the largest county in Ulster and the fourth-largest county in all of Ireland. Uniquely, County Donegal shares a small border with only one other county in the Republic of Ireland – County Leitrim. The vast majority of its land border (93%) is shared with three counties of Northern Ireland: County Tyrone, County Londonderry and County Fermanagh. This geographic isolation from the rest of the Republic has led to Donegal people maintaining a distinct cultural identity and has been used to market the county with the slogan "Up here it's different". While Lifford is the county town, Letterkenny is by far the largest town in the county with a population of just under 20,000. Letterkenny and the nearby city of Derry form the main economic axis in the northwest of Ireland. Indeed, what became the City of Derry was officially part of County Donegal up until 1610. It is part of the Northern and Western Region (a NUTS 2 European statistical Region), within which it is part of the Border strategic planning area.

Baronies and townlands
There are eight historic baronies in the county. While baronies continue to be officially defined units, they ceased to have any administrative function following the Local Government Act 1898, and any changes to county boundaries after the mid-19th century are not reflected in their extent. The last boundary change of a barony in Donegal was in 1851 when the barony of Inishowen was divided into Inishowen East and Inishowen West. The barony of Kilmacrennan covers a large portion of northwest Donegal and is the largest in the county. With an area of 312,410 acre, Kilmacrennan is also the largest barony in Ireland, being roughly equal in size to County Monaghan. The smallest barony is Inishowen West, at 77,149 acres.

Townlands are the smallest officially defined geographical divisions in Ireland. There are 2,787 townlands in Donegal and an additional 47 historic town boundaries. These town boundaries are registered as their own townlands and are much larger than rural townlands. The smallest rural townlands in Donegal are just 1 acre in size, most of which are either lough islands or offshore islets (Corragh Island, Bishop's Island, Juniper Island, O'Donnell's Island, etc.). The largest rural townland in Donegal is 6,053 acres (Tawnawully Mountains). The average size of a townland in the county (excluding towns) is 438 acres.

Informal districts
The county may be informally divided into a number of traditional districts. There are two Gaeltacht districts in the west: The Rosses (Na Rosa), centred on the town of Dungloe (An Clochán Liath), and Gweedore (Gaoth Dobhair). Another Gaeltacht district is located in the north-west: Cloughaneely (Cloich Chionnaola), centred on the town of Falcarragh (An Fál Carrach). The most northerly part of the island of Ireland is the location for three peninsulas: Inishowen, Fanad and Rosguill. The main population centre of Inishowen, Ireland's largest peninsula, is Buncrana. In the east of the county lies the Finn Valley (centred on Ballybofey) and The Laggan district (not to be confused with the Lagan Valley in the south of County Antrim), which is centred on the town of Raphoe.

Geography
Donegal is the most mountainous county in Ulster. It consists of two ranges of low mountains, the Derryveagh Mountains in the north and the Blue Stack Mountains in the south, with Errigal at 751 m the highest peak, making it the 11th-highest county top in Ireland. It has a deeply indented coastline forming natural sea loughs, of which Lough Swilly and Lough Foyle are the most notable. Donegal boasts the longest mainland coastline of any county in Ireland, and has either the longest or third longest total coastline (including islands), depending on how it is measured. Estimates of the length of the coastline range from less than 1000 km to 1235 km. The official figure used by Donegal County Council is 1134 km. The Slieve League cliffs are among the highest sea cliffs in Europe, while Malin Head is the most northerly point on the island of Ireland.

Two permanently inhabited islands, Arranmore and Tory Island, lie off the coast, along with a large number of islands with only transient inhabitants. The 129 km long River Erne, Ireland's ninth-longest river, enters Donegal Bay near the town of Ballyshannon. The River Erne, along with other Donegal waterways, has been dammed to produce hydroelectric power. A canal linking the Erne to the River Shannon was constructed between 1846 and 1860, creating Ireland's longest navigable waterway. The project was plagued with setbacks and closed in 1870, ten years after its completion. A joint effort between the Irish and Northern Irish governments restored the canal in the late 20th century, and the Shannon–Erne Waterway reopened in 1994.

Historically, the eastern boundary of the kingdom of Tír Chonaill was demarcated by the River Foyle. In the 17th century, an area of land west of the Foyle was transferred to the newly established city of Derry. The Foyle still demarcated a large section of Donegal's eastern border. To the south, the Drowes River forms a 9 km (6 miles) long natural boundary with County Leitrim.

Donegal has a population density of 34.2 people per square kilometre, the lowest in Ulster and the fifth lowest in Ireland. The county has an expansive network of wildlife and conservation zones, including 46 European Union designated Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) and 26 Special Protection Areas (SPAs), as well as 14 Natural Heritage Areas (NHAs), 74 proposed Natural Heritage Areas, 145 Irish Geological Heritage Areas (IGHs) and Ireland's second largest national park, Glenveagh, which extends to over 42000 acre in northwestern Donegal.

Owing to its scenic landscape and "world-class wilderness", Donegal was named National Geographic's "Coolest place on the Planet" in 2017. The county was also ranked the 4th best region in the world by Lonely Planet's Best in Travel series for 2024, which called Donegal "purely wild with a big heart".

The forested area in the county extends to 55534 ha, the 4th highest total forest cover in Ireland. Historic deforestation left Donegal devoid of forest cover by 1900. Much of the county's forests are commercial timber plantations which were initially established in the 1930s as a way to create rural employment in areas with poor agricultural land and high rates of emigration. The county contains extensive tracts of blanket bog which are concentrated in western and upland regions. Blanket bog covers an area of 148656 ha, or roughly 30 percent of the entire county.

Flora and fauna

Donegal has a wide variety of habitats, and over half of Ireland's plant and animal species can be found within the county. Approximately 11.4 per cent of the county is covered in forest, which is about average nationally. Forest cover is not evenly spread across the county and some areas, such as Pettigo and around Lough Derg, are very heavily forested, while more exposed coastal and upland areas are virtually barren. Around 65 per cent of Donegal's forests are publicly owned. Despite its northerly latitude and geographic isolation, Donegal also hosts two species of amphibian (common frog & smooth newt) and two reptile species (Leatherback turtle and viviparous lizard).
 * The typical native tree species found in Donegal are Scots pine, aspen poplar, birch, hazel and oak. Other common trees include Sitka spruce, mountain ash, sycamore, European larch and horse-chestnut.
 * Many species of terrestrial and flying mammals live in the county, including Irish hares, brown hares, red deer, sika deer, Irish bats, common pipistrelle bats, soprano pipistrelle bats, brown long-eared bats, whiskered bats, Daubenton's bats, Natterer's bats, American mink, pygmy shrews, rabbits, pine martens, stoats, badgers, red squirrels, gray squirrels, wood mice, house mice, brown rats, otters, red foxes, hedgehogs and feral goats.
 * Marine mammals include harbour seals, grey seals, humpback whales, orcas, pilot whales, fin whales, minke whales, sperm whales, Cuvier's beaked whales, common dolphins, bottlenose dolphins, Atlantic white-sided dolphins, white-beaked dolphins, striped dolphins, Risso's dolphins and (very rarely) walruses.
 * Notable bird species include barnacle geese, corn crakes, northern lapwings (Ireland's national bird), grey herons, Long-eared owls, golden eagles, barn owls, yellowhammers, storm petrels, Arctic skuas, wrens, goldfinches, Atlantic puffins, razorbills, ravens, curlews and redshanks.

The native Irish red deer in Donegal went extinct around 1860 and were re-introduced in the 1890s. Due to interbreeding, most of the deer in the county are now a Sika-Red deer hybrid. The Wild Ireland wildlife park near Burnfoot showcases some of Donegal's historic animal species that were hunted to extinction, including brown bears, lynxes and gray wolves. In 2001, the golden eagle was re-introduced into Glenveagh National Park and is currently Ireland's only breeding population.

A survey of the macroscopic marine algae of County Donegal was published in 2003. The survey was compiled using the algal records held in the herbaria of the following institutions: the Ulster Museum, Belfast; Trinity College Dublin; NUI Galway, and the Natural History Museum, London. Records of flowering plants include Dactylorhiza purpurella (Stephenson and Stephenson) Soó.

Climate
The majority of Donegal has a temperate oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification: Cfb), with upland areas in the Derryveagh and Blue Stack ranges classified as oceanic subpolar (Köppen climate classification: Cfc). The county's climate is heavily influenced by the North Atlantic Current. Due to the topography of western Donegal, it receives orographic rainfall, where the air is forced to rise on contact with its mountainous coastline and subsequently cools and condenses, forming clouds. The mountains of Donegal are among the cloudiest places in Ireland, and northern Donegal is the windiest. Irish monthly record wind speeds for March, June, July, September, November and December have all been set at Malin Head. The highest wind speed ever recorded in Donegal was 181 km/h (112 mph) on 16 September 1961, during Hurricane Debbie.

The Atlantic Ocean has a significant cooling effect and, due to the county's long, thin shape and punctuated coastline, nowhere in Donegal is particularly far from the ocean, giving it a generally cooler climate that is more similar to western Scotland than the rest of Ireland. The average maximum temperature in July at Malin Head is just 16.8 °C. However, due to its exposed coastal location, the climate at Malin Head is not representative of most of the county. Winds are much lighter in the county's interior and temperatures are cooler in the winter and warmer in the summer. Annual rainfall in the county ranges from around 850 mm in the lowlands of north-eastern Donegal to over 2000 mm in western mountainous areas. Precipitation exceeding 1 mm (0.04 in) will fall across all areas of Donegal on over 150 days per year.

While the prevailing wind direction in Ireland is south-westerly, which brings warm, moist air from the Gulf of Mexico, a low-pressure Polar front regularly passes to the northwest of the island, bringing cold and unsettled weather to the region. The upland areas of Donegal will reliably receive some covering of snow every year. In lowland areas, snow - while still relatively infrequent - is more common than in the rest of Ireland. Despite its coastal location, Malin Head records an average of 20 days of snowfall per year. In contrast Valentia Island, a similarly placed coastal station in the southwest of Ireland records just 3.

Geology and terrain
Donegal can be divided into six main geological subdivisions. Of these, the most expansive sections are the Lower Carboniferous limestones and sandstones of south Donegal, the Devonian granite of the Donegal batholith, which extends for about 75 km northeast to southwest from Ardara to Fanad Head, and quartzo-feldspathic Dalradian rocks from the Precambrian era, which cover much of the rest of the county. The geology of Donegal is very similar to that of County Mayo, and both counties are located within the Grampian Terrane. The oldest rocks in Ireland are a granitic gneiss found on the island of Inishtrahull, located ca. 10 km north-east of Malin Head. They are 1.78 billion years old, making them Paleoproterozoic in age. The oldest rocks on mainland Donegal are a quartzo-feldspathic paragneiss found around Lough Derg, which have been dated to 1.713 billion years ago.

Donegal is the most seismically active part of Ireland. The Leenan Fault is a large strike-slip fault that bisects the county from Lough Swilly to Donegal Bay, and dozens of tremors have been recorded along the fault since the late 19th century, although none have been larger than a magnitude 3 on the Richter scale.

The county's landscape was carved out by glaciation at the end of the Pleistocene and the subsequent retreat during the early Holocene. Donegal contains one of Ireland's three glacial fjords (or fjards) at Lough Swilly, the others being Carlingford Lough and Killary Harbour. Lough Swilly is the county's largest inlet and forms the western boundary of the Inishowen Peninsula. The thick ice sheet that once covered the region carved out deep basins in the Donegal uplands and many tarns or corrie lakes developed in these depressions after the ice had melted, including Lough Maam below Slieve Snaght and Lough Feeane under Aghla More. Larger glacial lakes formed in the county's distinctive U-shaped valleys, such as Lough Beagh and Gartan Lough in Glenveagh, and Dunlewey Lough and Lough Nacung Upper in the Poisoned Glen. Valleys such as these were the last areas to retain glaciers as temperatures rose.

As the ice sheet thinned, topography became the dominant force driving the direction of ice and meltwater flow. Erosion by glacial meltwater carved out large channels in southern Donegal which directed water and sediment to outwash fans in Donegal Bay. The area south of Donegal town, where the River Eske flows into the bay, is an example of one of these outwash areas. Sea levels in the area began to stabilise around 5,000 years ago, and the balance of erosion and deposition along Donegal's coastline resulted in the development of many sandy beaches and spits interspersed with jagged sea cliffs.

Largest towns
Letterkenny is by far the largest settlement in Donegal, with a population of just over 22,000. It is the largest town in the Border Region and the 21st largest urban area in the Republic of Ireland.

Under CSO classification, an "Urban Area" is a town with a population greater than 1,500. As of the 2016 Census, Donegal is the most rural / least urbanised county in Ireland, with less than one-third of the population (27.3 per cent) living in urban areas and over 70 per cent in rural areas.

Irish language

The Donegal Gaeltacht (Irish-speaking area) is the second-largest in Ireland. The version of the Irish language spoken in County Donegal is Ulster Irish.

Of the Gaeltacht population of 24,744 (16% of the county's total population), 17,132 say they can speak Irish. There are three Irish-speaking parishes: Gweedore, The Rosses and Cloughaneely. Other Irish-speaking areas include Gaeltacht an Láir: Glencolmcille, Fintown, Fanad and Rosguill, the islands of Arranmore, Tory Island and Inishbofin. Gweedore is the largest Irish-speaking parish, with over 5,000 inhabitants. All schools in the region use Irish as the language of instruction.

According to the 2022 Census, the number of people (aged three and over) who stated that they could speak Irish in Donegal was 59,130 (35.4% of the county's total population) compared with 56,738 in 2016. Of these 7,750 said they spoke Irish daily while 4,533 spoke Irish weekly.

Local government
Donegal County Council has been in existence since 1899 and has responsibility for local administration. It is headquartered at the County House in Lifford. Elections to the County Council take place every five years. Thirty-seven councillors are elected using the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote (STV). The county is divided into the following local electoral areas: Buncrana (5 seats), Carndonagh (4), Donegal (6), Glenties (6), Letterkenny (7), Lifford–Stranorlar (6) and Milford (3).

Donegal County Council has three representatives on the Northern and Western Regional Assembly.

Council elections are held every 5 years, with the next election due to be held in June 2029. The 2024 Donegal local election had a voter turnout of 54.7%. The highest turnout was at Milford (63.1%) and the lowest was at Letterkenny (51.4%).

Former districts
Until 2014, there were town councils in Letterkenny, Bundoran, Ballyshannon and Buncrana. The town councils were abolished in June 2014 when provisions of the Local Government Reform Act 2014 was commenced and their functions were taken over by Donegal County Council.

National elections
The Dáil constituency of Donegal constituency (5 TDs) covers almost the entire county, with the exception of a small area in southern Donegal around Bundoran and Ballyshannon, which is part of the Sligo–Leitrim constituency.

Historically, the county was represented in the Parliament of Ireland through the Donegal Borough constituency, which lasted from 1613 to 1800, when the Irish Parliament was abolished. Following the Act of Union, the county was represented in Westminster through the Donegal constituency until 1885. Following this, the county was broken up into four separate constituencies – North Donegal, South Donegal, East Donegal and West Donegal – which persisted until independence. The Government of Ireland Act 1920 reformed the four constituencies into a single entity covering "the administrative county of Donegal". This was broken up into Donegal East and Donegal West from 1937 to 1977, and into Donegal North-East and Donegal South-West from 1981 to 2016.

Referendums
Donegal voters have a reputation nationally for being "conservative and contrarian", and have often voted against amendments to the Irish constitution which received broad support in the rest of Ireland. Conversely, voters in the county have also supported several referendums which were not enacted. The trend first emerged in 1958, when voters in Donegal overwhelmingly voted to alter the electoral system from proportional representation to first-past-the-post in a referendum which was defeated nationally.

In 1968, voters in the county backed two separate bills which were also widely rejected nationwide. The first vote was to allow rural constituencies to elect a disproportionate number of TDs. Thirty-four constituencies voted against the amendment and four voted in favour, two of which were Donegal North-East and Donegal South-West. In the second vote, both Donegal constituencies again voted for the introduction of a first-past-the-post system, which was rejected. The 23rd Amendment permitting the State to join the International Criminal Court in 2001 received the lowest support in Donegal, with just 55.8% of voters backing the proposal, compared with 64.2% nationally. Donegal is the only county to have voted against the Treaty of Lisbon twice, in 2008 and 2009. Voters in the county also rejected both the Fiscal Treaty and the referendum on children's rights and state care in 2012.

On the issue of abortion and right to life vs pro-choice, Donegal has consistently been the most conservative county in Ireland. In 1992, two referendums on the issue were held. The first was an amendment which specified that the State could not limit the freedom of travel of women seeking abortions abroad. The second specified that the distribution of information about abortion services available in other countries was not unlawful. In contrast to the rest of Ireland, Donegal voted decisively against these amendments.

The twenty-fifth amendment in 2002 to tighten the ban on abortion in Ireland received the most support in Donegal. Nationally, 50.42% of voters voted against the amendment, whereas 68.8% of voters in Donegal voted in favour of it. In May 2018, Donegal was the only county in Ireland to vote against the repeal of the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution which had acknowledged the right to life of the unborn. In October 2018, 48.5% of voters in Donegal voted against repealing the offence of publishing or uttering blasphemous matter, the highest of any county and significantly above the national total of 35.15%.

European elections
The county is in the Midlands–North-West constituency (5 seats) for elections to the European Parliament. Two candidates from Donegal contested the 2024 European Parliament election in Ireland. They were Peter Casey and Senator Niall Blaney.

Freedom of Donegal
The Freedom of Donegal is an award that is given to people who have been recognised for outstanding achievements on behalf of the people and County Donegal. Such people include Daniel O'Donnell, Phil Coulter, Shay Given, Packie Bonner, Pat Crerand, Seamus Coleman and the Brennan family. In 2009 the members of the 28th Infantry Battalion of the Irish Defence Forces were also awarded the Freedom of the County from Donegal County Council "in recognition of their longstanding service to the County of Donegal".

Transport
An extensive rail network used to exist throughout the county and was mainly operated by the County Donegal Railways Joint Committee and the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company (known as the L. & L.S.R. or the Lough Swilly Company for short). All these lines were laid to a 3-foot gauge, while the connecting lines were all laid to the Irish standard gauge of. This meant that all goods had to be transhipped at Derry and Strabane. Like all narrow gauge railways, this became a handicap after World War I, when road transport began to erode the railways' goods traffic.

By 1953, the Lough Swilly had closed its entire railway system and become a bus and road haulage concern. The County Donegal lasted until 1960 as it had largely dieselised its passenger trains by 1951. By the late 1950s, major work was required to upgrade the track, and the Irish Government was unwilling to supply the necessary funds, so 'the Wee Donegal', as it was affectionally known, was closed in 1960. The Great Northern Railway (the G.N.R.) also ran a line from Strabane through The Laggan, a district in the east of the county, along the River Foyle into Derry. However, the railway network within County Donegal was completely closed by 1960. Today, the closest railway station to the county is Waterside Station in the City of Derry, which is operated by NI Railways (N.I.R.). Train services along the Belfast–Derry railway line run, via Coleraine railway station, to Belfast Lanyon Place and Belfast Grand Central stations.

County Donegal is served by both Donegal Airport, located at Carrickfinn in The Rosses in the west of the county, and by City of Derry Airport, located at Eglinton to the east. The nearest main international airport to the county is Belfast International Airport (popularly known as Aldergrove Airport), which is located to the east at Aldergrove, near Antrim Town, in County Antrim, 92 km from Derry City and 127 km from Letterkenny.

Culture and religion

The variant of the Irish language spoken in County Donegal shares many traits with Scottish Gaelic. The Irish spoken in the Donegal Gaeltacht (Irish-speaking area) is of the Ulster dialect, while Inishowen (parts of which only became English-speaking in the early 20th century) used the East Ulster dialect. Ulster Scots is often spoken in both the Finn Valley and The Laggan district of East Donegal. Donegal Irish has a strong influence on learnt Irish across Ulster.

Like other areas on the western seaboard of Ireland, parts of County Donegal have a distinctive fiddle tradition which is of world renown. County Donegal is also well known for its songs which have, like the instrumental music, a distinctive sound. Donegal musical artists such as the bands Clannad, The Pattersons, and Altan and solo artist Enya, have had international success with traditional or traditional flavoured music. Donegal music has also influenced people not originally from the county including folk and pop singers Paul Brady and Phil Coulter. Singer Daniel O'Donnell has become a popular ambassador for the county. Popular music is also common, the county's most acclaimed rock artist being the Ballyshannon-born Rory Gallagher. Other acts to come out of Donegal include folk-rock band Goats Don't Shave, Eurovision contestant Mickey Joe Harte and indie rock group The Revs. In more recent years, bands such as in Their Thousands and Mojo Gogo have featured on the front page of Hot Press magazine.

County Donegal has a long literary tradition in both Irish and English. The Irish navvy-turned-novelist Patrick MacGill, author of many books about the experiences of Irish migrant itinerant labourers in Britain at around the start of the 20th century, such as The Rat Pit and the autobiographical Children of the Dead End, is from the Glenties area. The MacGill Summer School in Glenties is named in his honour and attracts national interest as a forum for the analysis of current affairs. The novelist and socialist politician Peadar O'Donnell hailed from The Rosses in west Donegal. The poet William Allingham was also from Ballyshannon. Modern exponents include the Inishowen playwright and poet Frank McGuinness and the playwright Brian Friel. Many of Friel's plays are set in the fictional Donegal town of Ballybeg.

Authors in County Donegal have been creating works, like the Annals of the Four Masters, in Irish and Latin since the Early Middle Ages. The Irish philosopher John Toland was born in Inishowen in 1670. He was thought of as the original freethinker by George Berkeley. Toland was also instrumental in the spread of freemasonry throughout Continental Europe. In modern Irish, Donegal has produced a number of (sometimes controversial), authors such as the brothers Séamus Ó Grianna and Seosamh Mac Grianna from The Rosses and the contemporary (and controversial) Irish-language poet Cathal Ó Searcaigh from Gortahork in Cloughaneely, and where he is known to locals as Gúrú na gCnoc ('Guru of the Hills').

County Donegal is known for its textiles, whose unique woollen blends are made of short threads with tiny bits of colour blended in for a heathered effect. Sometimes they are woven in a rustic herringbone format and other times in more of a box weave of varied colours. These weaves are known as donegal tweeds (with a small 'd') and are world-renowned.

There is a sizeable minority of Ulster Protestants in County Donegal, and most Donegal Protestants trace their ancestors to settlers who arrived during the Plantation of Ulster throughout the 17th century. The Church of Ireland is the largest Protestant denomination, with Presbyterianism second. The areas of County Donegal with the highest percentage of Protestants are The Laggan district of East Donegal, centred on Raphoe; the Finn Valley; and areas around Ramelton, Milford and Dunfanaghy – where their proportion reaches up to 30–45 per cent. There is also a large Protestant population between Donegal Town and Ballyshannon in the south of the county. In absolute terms, Letterkenny has the largest number of Protestants (over 1,000).

The Earagail Arts Festival is held within the county each July.

People from County Donegal have also contributed to culture elsewhere. Francis Alison was one of the founders of the College of Philadelphia, which would later become the University of Pennsylvania. Francis Makemie (originally from Ramelton) founded the Presbyterian Church in America. David Steele, from Upper Creevaugh, was a prominent Reformed Presbyterian, or Covenanter, a minister who emigrated to the United States in 1824. Charles Inglis, who was the first Church of England bishop of the Diocese of Nova Scotia, was the third son of Archibald Inglis, the Rector in Glencolmcille.

Places of interest
The area's attractions include Glenveagh National Park (formerly part of the Glenveagh Estate). The park is a 170 km2 (about 42,000 acre) nature reserve with scenery of mountains, raised boglands, lakes and woodlands. At its heart is Glenveagh Castle, a late Victorian 'folly' that was originally built as a summer residence. County Donegal was voted number one on The National Geographic Traveller (UK) 'cool list' for 2017, The Donegal Gaeltacht (Irish-speaking district) also attracts young people to County Donegal each year during the school summer holidays. The three-week-long summer Gaeltacht courses give young Irish people from other parts of the country a chance to learn the Irish language and traditional Irish cultural traditions that are still prevalent in parts of Donegal. The Donegal Gaeltacht has traditionally been a very popular destination each summer for young people from Northern Ireland. Scuba diving is also very popular with a club being located in Donegal Town.

Education
Higher education within the county is provided by the Letterkenny campus of the Atlantic Technological University (ATU; formerly the Letterkenny Institute of Technology (LYIT), popularly known locally as 'the Regional', established in the 1970s). In addition, many young people from the county attend third-level institutions elsewhere in Ireland, especially at Magee College and other institutions in Derry, and also at: Ulster University at Coleraine (UUC); Ulster University at Jordanstown (UUJ); The Queen's University of Belfast (Queen's or QUB); and the University of Galway (formerly NUI Galway). Many Donegal students also attend the Limavady Campus of the North West Regional College (popularly known as Limavady Tech) and the Omagh College of Further Education of South West College (popularly known as Omagh Tech or Omagh College).

Gaelic football and hurling
The Gaelic Athletic Association (G.A.A.) sport of Gaelic football is very popular in County Donegal. Donegal's inter-county football team have won the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship title twice (in 1992 and 2012) and the Ulster Senior Football Championship ten times. Donegal emerged victorious from the 2012 All-Ireland Senior Football Championship Final on 23 September 2012 to take the Sam Maguire Cup for only the second time, with early goals from Michael Murphy and Colm McFadden setting up a victory of 2–11 to 0–13 over Mayo. In 2007, Donegal won only their second national title by winning the National Football League. On 24 April 2011, Donegal added their third national title when they defeated Laois to capture the National Football League Division Two, they added another Division Two title in 2019. There are 16 clubs in the Donegal Senior Football Championship, with many others playing at a lower level.

Hurling (often called 'hurley' within County Donegal), handball and rounders are also played but are less widespread, as is the case in other parts of western Ulster. The Donegal county senior hurling team won the Lory Meagher Cup in 2011 and the Nicky Rackard Cup in 2013.

Rugby Union
There are several rugby teams in the county. These include Ulster Qualifying League Two side Letterkenny RFC, whose ground is named after Dave Gallaher, the captain of the 1905 New Zealand All Blacks touring team, who have since become known as The Originals. He was born in nearby Ramelton.

Ulster Qualifying League Three sides include Ballyshannon RFC, Donegal Town RFC and Inishowen RFC. Finn Valley RFC and Tir Chonaill RFC both compete in the Ulster Minor League North.

Association football
Finn Harps play in the League of Ireland and won promotion to the Premier Division in 2015 following a 2–1 aggregate win over Limerick F.C. in the playoff final. They retained their status in the Premier Division in the 2016 season. Harps' main rivals are Derry City F.C., with whom they contest Ireland's North-West Derby. Finn Harps are Donegal's only League of Ireland club, with the county's other clubs playing in either the Ulster Senior League or the local junior leagues.

Golf
There are a number of golf courses such as Ballyliffin Golf Club, located in the Inishowen peninsula. Other courses of note are Murvagh (located outside Donegal Town) and Rosapenna (Sandy Hills) located in Downings (near Carrigart). The Glashedy Links has been ranked 6th in a recent ranking taken by Golf Digest on the best courses in Ireland. The old links were ranked 28th, Murvagh 36th and Sandy Hills 38th.

Cricket
Cricket is chiefly confined to The Laggan district and the Finn Valley in the east of the county. The town of Raphoe and the nearby village of St Johnston, both in The Laggan, are the traditional strongholds of cricket within the county. The game is mainly played and followed by members of the Ulster Protestants of County Donegal. St Johnston Cricket Club play in the North West Senior League, while Letterkenny Cricket Club play in the Derry Midweek League.

Athletics
Athletic pursuits have been highly popular in Donegal over the years with numerous athletes from County Donegal going on to represent Ireland at the international level, with at least five winning medals at major events. Such athletes include Danny McDaid in the World Cross-Country Championships in 1979, Bridie Lynch who won medals in the World Paralympic Games in 1992 and 1996, Gary Murray who came 8th in the European Junior Cross-Country Championship of 1999, and Mark English who won medals in the European 800m Championships in 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2019. Sommer Lecky also achieved silver in the World Junior High Jump 2018. Other notable athletes from Donegal include Paul Dolan, Caitriona Jennings and Brendan Boyce each of whom has represented Ireland at the international level.

Other sports
Donegal's rugged landscape and coastline lends itself to active sports like climbing, mountain biking, hillwalking, surfing and kite-flying.

title: County Donegal


text:
Talk:The Bronx

Delete Joseph P. Day reference?
I propose deleting the inclusion of Joseph P. Day in the "See also" list. He seems like too obscure a figure to include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoffeeBeans9 (talk • contribs) 18:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Mihaela.deliminkova.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Population density
It's quite bizarre that the area numbers only have 2 significant figures, while the population density figures have 6. Choose to round both or neither. Kk.urban (talk) 21:59, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Ogden Nash's poems
In the section "In popular culture" -> "Literature" -> "Poetry", Ogden Nash's poetic apology to the dean of Bronx Community College is described as a "prose poem", and I can't quite figure out why.

Its presentation is standard for poetry. The last six lines rhyme, and, as is not always true for Nash, they even scan, perfectly.

I guess I could have just put "Citation needed" after the "prose poem" categorization, but I thought I would be a bit more specific about my concern. What makes this a prose poem? Does any reputable external source describe it thus? I'm not a NYT subscriber so I can't check the referenced article to see if that is the source, but the description is so odd that I would be concerned even if it were written by the chairman of the English Department of Bronx Community College. ACW (talk) 00:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I do (too extravagantly for my budget) subscribe to The Times on line, and this is how the reporter introduced the second poem:
 * "Even Mr. Nash had second thoughts about the Bronx, and eventually tried to make amends. In 1964, 33 years after his original four-word poem was published, Mr. Nash wrote a letter to the dean of Bronx Community College apologizing — sort of:"
 * —— Shakescene (talk) 03:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I deleted the word "prose". Btw, you can sometimes get Times refs by copying and pasting the article title (eg, "Contrite Poet Gives A Cheer for Bronx On Golden Jubilee") into Google. Station1 (talk) 06:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, now that I see the image of the original article and its transcript, it's clear that those first two lines are simply part of Nash's reply to the dean and not part of the poem proper (no doubt why they don't scan). I've removed them. Station1 (talk) 06:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Station1 and Shakescene, for fixing this and for the advice about the Times. Eventually I will get my act together and subscribe -- the traditional press deserves our support. ACW (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Bronx