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Talk:Tanka

Tanka/Waka move
I moved Tanka to Waka since there is no waka article then and it seems appreciate to discuss choka and takan at once in waka article. They may deserve to their own article, but tanka article is still very short, so I think it's fine for now. --Taku 02:41, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

We also need an article on English-language tanka poetry. Right now somebody has included way too much of Jane and Werner Reichhold without balancing it with important works by others authors and editors. Further, tanka in English has certain issues that deserve discussion, such as the various theories on how to adapt the tanka form to the English-language. Sadly, I do not understand how to start a new page, or I would. Kujakupoet (talk) 05:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Hey Kujakupoet! I have gone ahead and created the article at Tanka in English. If you have time, please add to it and help build it up to the standard of Haiku in English. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:27, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Choka translation request
Would it be possible please to translate the choka cited for those of us less able to read kanji? --Andycjp12th July 2004

Modern Japanese tanka revival and Tawara Machi?
I will admit that I don't know that much about modern Japanese tanka, but I wonder about this statement in the text: "The modern revival of tanka took place under the wing of contemporary poet Tawara Machi." Isn't Tawara Machi really just a continuation of the revival of the tanka form started at the beginning of the 20th century by Yosano Akiko and her husband-editor Yosano Tekkan, and others including Masaoka Shiki?

For a poetry form that has such a very long history, it looks like it is going to take lots of work to do it justice. ;-) --gK 09 October 2004

Article editing discusion #1

 * Agreed; I added some names. As for this section I think now it became a bit redundant. How about moving the description of its historical development away and merge Historical development in the below, and keeping this section only with the form and naming convention information? Reference to renga should be kept and perhaps reference to kyoka will be useful. --Aphaea 08:38, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, the Tanka section probably has too much history right now and should be just a description of the form, and then the tanka history moved down to the Historical Development section.
 * On tanka history: The modern-era revival of tanka probably started with Yosano Tekkan and the poets that were associated with his Myōjō magazine, but that magazine was fairly short-lived, and Masaoka Shiki's poems and writing (as well as the work of his friends and disciples) have had a more lasting influence.
 * The Historical Development section really needs some subsections. I don't know how the Japanese divide things. In Donald Keene's books, He uses four large categories: 1) Early and Heian Literature (Kojiki to past 'The Tale of Genji' to 1185) 2) The Middle Ages ('chūsei' from 1185, including the Kamakura and Muromachi Periods) 3) Pre-Modern Era (1600-1867, then subdivided into 1600-1770 and 1770-1867) 4) Modern Era (post 1867, divided into Meiji (1868-1912), Taishô (1912-1926) and  Shôwa (from 1927)).
 * As for  Kyōka, it would be nice if it and  Chōka could both also have their own articles eventually (and also one specifically for Tanka, so that the Waka article becomes an overview article for all japanese poetry not written in Chinese). I just checked -- there isn't an article yet on Kanshi. There is one for Renga.
 * I'm still searching for them, but other tanka/waka/renga poets (not including haiku poets) that already have wikipedia articles or stubs include, Hagiwara Sakutaro, Ishikawa Takuboku, Ito Sachio, Kakinomoto Hitomaro, Kamo no Chomei, Kitahara Hakushu, Kukai, Kenji Miyazawa, Mori Ogai, Motoori Norinaga, Murasaki Shikibu, Nagatsuka Takashi, Okamoto Kanoko, Otomo no Yakamochi, Ryōkan, Takeshi Kitano, Tsuji Jun, Ueda Akinari, Wakayama Bokusui, plus an article on Death poems. --gK 10:36, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I did some fixup on the Waka article, correcting some typos and changing some of the wording. There is still more to do, because every time that I look at it I find more. Unfortunately I am not a natural editor. The next time I work on a long article I will: 1) print it out 2) run the text through a spell checker. Both of those steps should make editing a little easier. ;-) --gK 12:40, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with your descrption on modern revival ; Keen's categories seems to me to have a sense and he is not so far from Japanese scholars. I'll move your listed poets to famous waka poets and try to merge your draft. But I'm not a native English speaker, please don't feel ill if I harmed your cool draft.  Cheers. --Aphaea 14:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Article editing discusion #2
As for the list of famous waka poets, we probably don't want that to get too long, and some of the ones that I listed are not necessarily that famous or important,but just ones that already had Wikipedia articles or stubs. What might be a good idea is create two columns, one of pre-Meiji waka poets, and another of modern tanka poets. The other choice might be to create an annotated list to explain why a person is on the list. (Here is an example for someone who currently doesn't even have a stub and certainly deserves a full article: Fujiwara Teika (1162 - 1241) Compiler of the 8th and 9th Imperial anthologies, as well as Hyakunin Isshu. Should the list be chronological, or alphabetical?

 * Agreed. The list should be downsized particularly for readability. We will make a category of waka poets or two lists List of waka poets and List of tanka poets. IMHO it would be friendly for newbies our list on this article provide readers with from five to seven poets per an epoch; so we have from 20 to 28 names at last. --Aphaea.

Schnolle: Maybe it's me, but I don't think that the poems need to be set off with the double lines. I really liked the look after the poems were set up in the three columns, but adding the double lines for me makes it look like a break in the text for a new section or something.

 * You're right, I'll remove them. I put them there because I felt it would look nice to have it stand out more clearly; using vertical space probably will do just fine. Haven't seen many other examples of poems in WP... --Schnolle 12:06, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Aphaea: Don't worry about your English -- I am mostly only making minor corrections such as missing articles ("the" and "a"), for example. I only know English and Spanglish (a mangled amalgam of English and Spanish sometimes spoken here in Southern California). --gK 03:41, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your encouragement. Your corrections are always appliciated by me. --Aphaea 12:43, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just noticed that the historical divisions for the Waka article pretty much match those used in the Japanese literature article, except that they have "Ancient Literature (pre-8th Century)" and "Classical Literature (8th Century - 12th Century)", where the Waka "Ancient" section covers both periods. --gK 09:33, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Translation copyrighted?
Hmmm... I just consciously saw the copyright mark on the Choka for the first time... Doesn't this mean that this particular translation is ineligble to be included in Wikipedia? i.e., isn't it a Copyvio? --Schnolle 18:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I think those quotations are allowed as fair use (enough short, necessary to be quoted). But if not, we should make it original translations. --Aphaea 23:00, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * It's one small poem out of just under 1,000 pages. It's part of a critical discussion. It is for educational purposes. It might induce some Wikipedia users to consider purchasing the book since the full book description and ISBN is included in the Resources section. For all of those reasons I think that the use of the translation of the poem qualifies as "fair use" according to US copyright law. [Unfortunately, everything that I looked up on Wikipedia "fair use" policy was only for images, so I'm not sure how to handle the "fair use" of text on the Wikipedia.]
 * If the copyright notice is the problem, I don't think that it is necessary since anything that isn't explicitely released into the public domain is copyrighted. I was mostly concerned that the translator gets proper credit. I've seen several translations on the wikipedia without credit, and I don't think that is right. (e.g. haiku)

 * Generally, the max is 50 words, or less than a 1/3 of the article/work-it-is-being-used-in. Or so I am assured by those more knowledgeable in copyright. --Maru (talk) Contribs 01:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Spell-check
I just ran this article through a spell-checker (I recently installed the SpellBound extension for the Firefox browser--it's slow, but it works). --gK [[User talk:GK|¿?]] 03:13, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Page move request
When this page was first moved to Waka, there were no other articles with this name. Unfortunately, "waka" is also the name of a type of canoe - the primary means of transport among many Pacific Island peoples - and is the principle form of tribal grouping among Maori (who trace their ancestry back to whichever waka first brought them to New Zealand). As such, I repeatedly have to replace links from articles relating to Maori history which erroneously lead to this article on Japanese poetry rather than to waka (canoe).

I realise that the number of correct links to the page on Japanese poetry outnumber those to Maori waka by a large factor (122 to 38, to be precise), but the numbers for the two subjects are both high enough that it seems to me it would make more sense to have the disambiguation page at Waka and the poetry page at Waka (poetry). I'm considering formally requesting this at Requested Moves, but thought it would be more diplomatic to suggest it here first, to see if there's support for this without having to go through the rigmarole of official channels. Grutness...wha?  07:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Since there's been no objection in nearly a month, I'm moving the pages. Grutness...wha?  09:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sijo as ancestor ?
The sijo article seems to imply that waka is derived from sijo. Is this true, arguable, false, misleading or what? Kdammers 07:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, and never heard, but I am not surprised either. Korean nationalists nowadays claim anything created from Japan rooted in Korea. In my opinion such unsourced claim are better to remove or at least "it is claimed that .... by [source]", since it should be a minority opinion, not a significant minority. --Aphaia 10:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No. The sijo is not the ancestor of the Japanese waka/tanka. While there are various theories of its origin, it is accepted as an indigenous Japanese form. It most likely derives from the song contests of the pre-literate period, perhaps via the sedoka (six line poem), or perhaps via the choka (where the hanka or envoi evolved to become an independent entity). Cranston is a good source to consult and quote for the earliest tanka. Kujakupoet (talk) 05:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits ('genre' and 'originally encompassed' vs. 'encompasses')
"Waka (和歌) or Yamato uta is a genre of Japanese poetry" to "Waka (和歌) or Yamato uta is a generic name for Japanese poetry". The latter version cannot be true, since 'waka' as a genre is distinguished from kanshi and renga, two other Japanese poetic genres. 'Genre' implies that there is some sort of unity, be it formal, technical, thematic or other.
 * "Genre" does not necessarily imply thematic cohesion, as editor Shooklyn claims in his edit summary, after twice changing the opening sentence from

"the term waka originally encompassed a number of differing styles" to "the word waka encompasses a number of differing styles".
 * The second paragraph sketches the history of the use of the term, beginning with its original comprehensive inclusion of most courtly Japanese-language forms, and concluding with the current situation whereby 'waka' is practically synonymous with 'tanka'. Thus it makes no sense to change

 * Given that the above-mentioned edits have been made twice, I would hope the editor in question will engage in this discussion, before attempting any further reversion. Any other editors have positions on these questions? Thanks. --Yumegusa (talk) 12:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Two things to note about this page:

1. The formulation of waka as a "genre" of Japanese poetry.

a. The word genre, when taken into the field of literary studies, refers not just to form (tanka, sedoka...) but also implies thematic cohesion of pieces (e.g. warrior ballads, love songs, etc.).

b. Since "waka" literally means "Japanese poetry" it cannot by default just be a genre.

2. You site many valuable sources such as Brower&Miner, Cranston and McCullough, but where did you get that:

a. waka is a "genre"?

b. it only refers to tanka now? (E.g. Choka was still written in late Heian, cf. Nun Abutsu for instance.)

Based on the above-listed premises I suggest changing the formulation a bit:

Waka (lit. "Japanese poetry"和歌) is a generic term that comprises several forms of traditional Japanese poetry.... The name presupposes its distinct identity from kanshi漢詩, i.e. "poetry in classical Chinese". In modernity, it is also contrasted with poems in Japanese written according to the Western poetic forms.

[or something like that.]

Hope this helps, Shooklyn —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shooklyn (talk • contribs) 09:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the response. I'm travelling all week, so will not be in a position to respond in detail till the weekend. However, for the interim, please note

 * 1a On what do you base your contention that 'genre' must imply thematic cohesion? Cohesion can be based on many things; in this case it is based on poetic forms all being courtly poetry penned in Japanese.
 * 1b The literal meaning of the term has no necessary relevance to the actual meaning.
 * 2 My statements are based on text in the sources (that's what citations are for). Do you dispute that the sources support the statements, or have you not bothered to check? The late Heian is not 'now'.
 * I've no doubt we can arrive at a consensual text, but let's not rush at it. In reaching consensus, it would be helpful if other interested editors expressed their views on these matters.--Yumegusa (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

--- Thank you for your response, Yumegusa.

If you note, I do not question your sources, but I just would like you to refer me to any source among those listed (or elsewhere) that describes "waka" as a "genre". I agree that the term "genre" may refer to many groupings, but in case of poetry, genre refers to thematic variations PRIMARILY. One way of thinking about it is take Japanese poetry in general as a unified entity (if such is indeed the case, and not just a modern construct... a whole different story, I don't want to go into just now). Then, what follows is, Japanese poetry is divided into different forms: some modern, some archaic, some major, some minor, etc. Then, the next sublevel is genre, that is thematically arranged groupings of poems. For instance, in any chokusenshu　勅撰集, we have many such genres as seasons, love, religious poetry, etc. Without a clear division into Form/genre/subgenre the word "genre" becomes a "dummy category" devoid of meaning. Is waka a genre? A genre of what? Please get back to this discussion with source citations such as where and when is "waka" presented as a genre. Shooklyn -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shooklyn (talk • contribs) 23:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Please read the article text, where you will see a footnote linked to the statement, "Waka... is a genre of Japanese poetry" providing the source where waka is described as a 'genre': Kawashima, Terry. Writing Margins: The Textual Construction of Gender in Heian and Kamakura Japan, Harvard University Press, ISBN 9780674005167, p.198. Is there some way I can make this clearer?

 * I don't agree with your stratification of genre at a lower level than form. For example, isn't it the case that haikai is a genre which contains multiple forms? Seasons, Love, Lamentations, etc. are themes, which may be included within a form, e.g. tanka or renku, so by your logic one could state that the tanka form includes many genres. Is all of this WP:OR? If not, then please provide citations.--Yumegusa (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

-- Thank you for the link, Yumegusa. As for haikai, wouldn't you agree that haikai is "a combination of comic playfulness and spiritual depth" (cf. wiki), which precisely characterizes it as a distinct genre with several forms. The relationship of form and genre is tricky, I admit. But why make it ambiguous in case of waka, which as the wiki has it, is associated with a form: tanka. Since the Kokinshu preface, written by Ki no Tsurayuki, waka seems to clearly imply 31-syllable form written in Classical Japanese, as opposed to kanshi. Tsurayuki tries to tweak 6 genres into waka based on the Chinese models (with an arguable success). I am not convinced about the usefulness of the word "genre" in our case. However, I shall look up Kawashima to see how he presents it. As for my approach, I follow the line of Hirsch, E.D. (1967) Validity in Interpretation. New Haven: Yale U Press. Cf. Chapter 3, "Concept of Genre". Excerpt: "Every shared type of meaning [genre] can be defined as a system of conventions." (p. 92) summarizes my point well, I think, i.e., form is one thing, genre is another. Shooklyn - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shooklyn (talk • contribs) 05:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

 * No-one is claiming that form and genre are the same thing. The statement "Every shared type of meaning can be defined as a system of conventions" merely states the obvious. What is its relevance to your point? Indeed, what is your point? Please say on-topic. --Yumegusa (talk) 22:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, then. I am relieved. For some time I have naively assumed that your "'Genre' implies that there is some sort of unity, be it formal, technical, thematic or other." sought to equate form and genre. In other words, my point is very simple: Explain what you mean by genre in your formulation to the reader, NOT to me for I am getting weary of your "stating the obvious" thing and alike. If it is indeed so obvious, then why do you not include who and when coined the term "waka". Did it even apply to the Man'yoshu and its various forms? If so, SOURCE, SVP.

Next, I have checked your source, and it can hardly be called the one that focuses on "waka" per se. Cheers. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shooklyn (talk • contribs) 06:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

 * This talk page is not a chat forum, and the conversation above appears to have lost direction and become a waste of resources. If you have not done so, please read WP's editing guidelines, and feel free to edit accordingly.--Yumegusa (talk) 21:58, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Genre again
Nice editing of the opening, Shooklyn. While I doubt anyone is likely to challenge your statement that waka is "one of the major genres of Japanese literature", using the back cover of Ueda's book is less than ideal. I don't have access to the book here, but it's unclear from your wording "(back cover excerpt)" whether you are (1) referring to an excerpt from the text of the book, which appears on the back cover, or you are (2) referring to an excerpt from the back cover. If the former, then wouldn't it be preferable to refer the reader to the page that the excerpt is taken from? If the latter, then it's arguable how useful the reference is, since a cover blurb is very unlikely to have been written by the author.--Yumegusa (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Nomination of Quintain (poetry) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Quintain (poetry) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Quintain (poetry) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.

I've posted this notice here as it may be of interest to editors of this article because, according to Quintain (poetry), waka is a type of quintain. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Manyogana, kana, romaji
I was wondering what sources were used for the example poems. For instance in the chouka: 子ども思ほゆKwodomo omopoyu... As far as I understand, there was no kana in the Man'yōshū. As for the romaji/pronounciation, it seems non-standard from a modern perspective. Is it meant to represent the pronounciation of Nara period Japanese? bamse (talk) 09:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry bamse. It is apparently incorrect edits by User:DTOx in April. I reverted the edits. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was not worrying, rather confused. I still wonder whether it is worth having the mixed Kanji/Kana Japanese there (romaji is fine with me) since this is en-wikipedia and those are not the way the poems were written originally, which AFAIK was in Chinese characters only. bamse (talk) 21:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to split article
Back in 2003, this article was moved from Tanka to its present location (see first post at top of page). That seems anomalous, now that the great majority of the article is about tanka, rather than the old non-tanka forms of waka (choka, sedoka, etc.). The 31-mora form has been known as tanka for well over a century now, and not having a separate article for it is analogous to having no article haiku but including all of that article's content in the hokku article. (Masaoka Shiki renamed waka and hokku to tanka and haiku respectively, in the late 19th century, the term waka having long become synonymous with the 31-mora form, since choka, sedoka etc. had fallen into disuse.)

There is already a page Tanka (poetry) which currently redirects to this article. My proposal is to populate it by moving the majority of the content of this article there. There are numerous poetry-related articles wikilinking the word tanka to this article, which would be better directed to an article specifically about that topic. There are 22 articles on the topic of Tanka (poetry) in other-language WPs - see the language-list on the left of the Dutch article.

Is there any down-side to my proposal? I can't think of any negatives, but I'd be pleased to hear other editors' views. Thanks for all input. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 11:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Support a dedicated article on tanka. This article should still briefly mention what tankaa are. bamse (talk) 21:26, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nine months later and I'm getting back to this now. It's a bigger job than I anticipated, and the preparatory work I did last year has now been superseded so I'd have to restart from scratch. I'm now thinking it might be better and simpler just to move this article to Tanka (poetry), then tidy a little to move the non-tanka waka details to ==History== . Thoughts? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In the absence of dissent I've gone ahead with that move, and reordered sections accordingly. Nothing of substance has been removed. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 00:07, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

No "medieval" period in Japanese history?
In this edit an IP editor changed a subsection title from "Medieval" to "Kamakura to Muromachi Periods" with the edit summary, "There is no such thing as a "medieval" period in Japanese history. That term is used to refer to European history". While I've no objection tot he edit, since it results in greater precision, the argument is false. Such eminent scholars as Haruo Shirane and Steven D. Carter make use of the term in reference to waka. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 12:33, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Related requested move
See Talk:tanka where a related requested move is occurring -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Tanka which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:46, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Small edits to "History" section
It would depend on what is meant by "form", but the 5-7-5-7-7 tanka and 5-7-5-7-...-5-7-7 chouka (and others) were both well established long before the Kojiki and Man'youshuu were compiled, and Empress Saimei reigned long before both of them anyway. Additionally, the Kojiki contains what are usually considered to be the oldest waka. Even if one considers the mythological explanations for the origins of these poems to be unlikely, there are many waka in the Kojiki that have attributed dates going back as far as anything in the Man'youshuu. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:17, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Any problems with making a new article at ?
I'm not entirely sure of the history behind this article getting moved back and forth, and why the current article here is basically just a waka article under the wrong name. But to avoid historical anachronism, most of the "history" content here should be moved into a new article under the name Waka. The other forms of waka also deserve either their own articles, or to be categorized under waka, but not under "tanka". It is historically inaccurate, but at least there is a logical precedent for discussing pre-modern 5-7-5-7-7 poems under the title Tanka; there is no justification for chōka and so on to be listed here, however. My most recent edit to the article made the wording better, but they really don't belong here at all.

I noticed this problem at just the right time, honestly. I'm going on holiday from today for about a week, and probably won't be coming near Wikipedia. I'm going to leave this notice here now, and if no one has any problems I will start work on fixing it after I get back.

I know there is a history here, and I don't want to step on any toes in this regard, so if there is a problem with making the proposed changes can someone clarify it for me? Otherwise, I will be bold. :D

elvenscout742 (talk) 05:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

 * No problem with that proposal. However, Waka already exists as a dab page (with a lot more content than at Tanka), so it'll be . --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 09:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Removal of external links
I am going to remove both of the external links from this page. My reasoning is as follows:

(1) Neither of them meet WP:ELYES, since they are directly linked not to the topic of this article but to the Hyakunin Isshu and to waka, which is theoretically different from tanka.

(2) Neither of them provide any significant, relevant information that could not be incorporated into the body of the article with the ELs cited as sources.

(3) While the Hyakunin Isshu is essentially a textbook of waka composition for the late-classical/early-medieval period, it is only relevant to the content of this article because this article still erroneously lumps classical waka (of all shapes and sizes) under the term "tanka". (I haven't abandoned my prior commitment to one day make a separate article at Waka (poetry).)

(4) The only potentially copyrighted material in the Hyakunin Isshu link is the English translations, which can easily be substituted with, say, one of the public-domain English translations, a simple, non-poetic gloss, or an original translation. (I know the latter might violate WP:NOR, but honestly the text is so widely known and studied, and the individual poems are so short, and they have all been translated into English so many times, that any "original" translation can be easily verified in reliable English-language sources, let alone Japanese ones.)

Since it may be appropriate to reincorporate the links as sources here or elsewhere, I am posting them here for future reference.

 * Ogura Hyakunin Isshu – 100 Poems by 100 Poets at University of Virginia Library Japanese Text Initiative
 * 2001 Waka for Japan 2001 translated by T. E. McAuley of the School of East Asian Studies at the University of Sheffield.

elvenscout742 (talk) 03:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I was going to add the Hyakunin Isshu EL to a more relevant page, but it was already there. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Dubious
I have added a dubious tag to the two Simply Haiku sources cited for the statement that the term waka is used to distinguish from kanshi. Both of these sources are by apparently reliable academic authors who specialize in the field, but the publication itself is clearly not specialist in tanka. The Rimer source is an interview, which seems a bit inappropriate for a simple definition/etymology of a word, and having two sources for this is excessive. Additionally, the only reference to kanshi in the Wright source seems to actually contradict this sentence as it appears in the article, since it states quite specifically that "waka" covers "all kinds of Japanese poems in contrast to the kanshi" -- this includes renga. I think that the only reason we need a source for this simple definition/etymology at all is if we are going to include a citation on every single line of the article (not a bad idea, really); two sources from a non-specialist poetic publication seems dubious.

I'm at work now and can't check volume 1 of Keene, but a simple dictionary definition really only needs a simple dictionary reference, am I right? says for waka: "Poetry exclusive to Japan, produced since ancient times, contrasted with kanshi." (漢詩に対して、上代から行われた日本固有の詩歌.) I'll check Kōjien at lunch.

elvenscout742 (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Tanka Teacher's Guide (External link)
I believe that site is fake either because it was hacked or because it was never safe in the first place. I suggest deleting it immediately.

Fdezcaminero (talk) 03:53, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I just deleted it. The website asked me for my credit card passing as my cable company. I called the cable and they told me it was a fraud.

Fdezcaminero (talk) 03:57, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tanka


text:
Talk:Rome/Archive 1

Why "Rome, Italy"?
What's the use of putting this page at Rome, Italy, and having Rome redirect to it? Rome, Italy should only be necessary if there's more than one Rome (I can imagine there's some US towns called Rome), but in that case Rome should be a disambiguating page, and not redirect to Rome, Italy. As I don't know about any other Romes, I'll leave it like this for now. jheijmans

Zundark, the link that you removed:
 * Pages that link here:

was meant to keep available the list of pages (you counted more than 350) that contain a link to Rome, I would guess the majority of which referring to the italian town. I had put it to be able to see those pages and not the recent pages that I can see if I click on the ordinary system link.

I think that it could be useful (for the many that are looking for the pages that link to the town's article, however named) to put it again in the article, perhaps with a better description than mine.

About the renaming of the article, recently Venice, Italy was reverted to Venice (even if there should be another one in California, I think) and the change was presumedly made for an obvious simplicity purpose. I agree with that change, IMHO it is too much "taxonomic" to call it this way, because it produces by paradox that the correct form for Wikipedia is not the one (quite) universally and immediately used by everyone (at least in english-speaking world), but another one, in atlas or dictionary style: yet, we all think of Rome as Rome, and even one who is eventually looking for Rome, Georgia would look for Rome at his first attempt. Also, it would be a heavy complication to adapt all the future edits regarding Rome, specially for newcomers (I besides imagine that the work of correcting all the existing 350+ links would be a longlasting passtime for the eventual volounteer).

I read your addition to the disambiguation page, and I can tell you that I had also read the mentioned example of Paris _before_ disambiguating, but since the article had been renamed, I considered it appropriated to just leave the possibility to edit Rome if someone wants to add about Rome, Georgia or about the third one or about new eventual voices. A disambiguating page would have also contained other related topics such as Roman Empire, Roman Triumph and similar entries. Moreover, after a Rome, Georgia (of which I'm becoming very curious :-) is eventually edited, how can it be found apart from specific exact search? It wouldn't have much sense to say in Rome, Italy that another place is called Rome; but it would be appropriated if an article existed named Rome.

Honestly I find that it could be better to go back to the previous situation, and maybe much more simpler. --Gianfranco (o Roma, o morte :-)))

 * When there is one meaning which is far more common than others, then it's probably not a good idea to make it into a disambiguating page. (Someone already explained this in Disambiguation, using poker as an example.) This is certainly the case with Rome, so I think it ought to be moved back to Rome. As you say, we can easily add a line to the Rome article pointing to Rome, Georgia and suchlike. Even if someone changes all 350 links, this wouldn't stop people accidently linking to Rome in the future - after all, they have a right to expect that Rome is about the Rome. --Zundark, Wednesday, April 10, 2002

 * Here, Here Zundark. Rome the article should be on Rome the page. People look at you weird when insisting on calling the overwhelmingly most famous Rome, "Rome, Italy". In this case, a disambiguation page is not appropriate, in the same way as a disambiguation page is not appropriate for the Paris article. Just have a list of the other Romes of the world at the bottom of the article. And when that list becomes too large, then create a link to a page called Romes of the World. However, Rome, Italy does need to be a redirect to Rome --maveric149, Wednesday, April 10, 2002

With all due respect to the residents of Paris, Texas; Athens, Georgia; and Moscow, Idaho; I'm with Mav here. The choice of whether to make a simple term into a disambiguation page is a flexible one. It's entirely appropriate for a page like "Rome" to be full coverage of the overwhelmingly most well-known city, and have a few links to the others at the bottom. It might also be appropriate to do it the other way in some cases. That's a judgment call, and we shouldn't be afraid to make those judgments. -- Lee Daniel Crocker

Hrmmm... you all have valid points; I debated with myself for quite a while on whether or not to move it. I seem to have a different perspective from the rest of you - while I certainly agree that when I hear "Rome", my brain automatically tags it ", Italy" unless otherwise indicated, in an encyclopedia I'd look under either Italy or Rome and still expect to find the article in an index of headings (or search engine in the case of Wikipedia). But then, I grew up visiting Europe on a regular basis and learned to automatically tag a city with its location (try looking up "Frankfurt" in Germany sometime). But I may be unusual (or unique) in that. Either way, I apologize for creating extra work on you-all's part, and will bear this exception to standard Wiki article nomenclature in mind. pgdudda

After much discussion on the wikipedia mailing list and elsewhere, a new consistant wikipedia naming convention was developed for cities. For the US it is City, State and for all other cities of the world it is City, Nation. --maveric149, Monday, July 8, 2002

Roma (goddess)
about redirecting Roma (empty): I saw it was linked by several articles, all pointing to the town, and vainly mentioned in the complete list.

Honestly I don't know about this god, but if it doesn't deserve a separate entry, we could perhaps redirect Rome to Roma.

hi Gianfranco

Found what's about: it is an allegory rethorically representing the symbolic personification of the State, first appeared in 269 BC in ... money (nummus - is it coins in english?), just like in Locri (Calabria) in 204 BC. I am now reading that external peoples might have given Roma divine attributes, but in my text this is only an hypothesis. Emphasising this allegory, temples were erected in Smirne (195 BC) and some sort of cult is reported in Ephesus, Sardi and Delo.

A confusion might be caused by the divinity of emperor: being Augustus a sort of demi-god, what was dedicated to him was a kind of religious celebration, partially directed on town's personality.

So Roma is not a god, but only an allegory.

I'm aware I make a huge use of your patience... :-)

 * "Roma" was a god decreed to exist by Augustus Ceasar early in his career as "Princeps Civitatis" (1st among citizens -- i.e. Emperor) as part of a propoganda campaign. In this way he deified the concept of Rome. Brilliant idea actually. Augustus built many temples with his Res Gestae (resume telling his subjects all his deeds) along side of inscriptions that popularized the new god Roma. Gypsies also call themselfs the "people of Roma" which does not have a connection with the Roman god.  We will have to wait until the bug is fixed to make an article about it.  maveric149

Origin of the name Roma
The origin of the name "Rome" is unknown. The Greek origin, met with in some ancient writers, is not one of the favored ones currently. Among the theories, the root "Rum-" (as in "Ruminalis" for example), meaning "breast" and connected with the ROM-ulus/REMus story (and note, along with some ancient authors, that the word for wolf, "lupa", also meant "prostitute": the word survives, for example, in Lat. "lupanar", whorehouse).

It would be better either to ignore the name origin, or to lay them all out in detail. Bill 21:19, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some criticisms
What a mess. This article seems to have an awful lot of overlap of history stuff, and rather little about the city today. Like for instance, nowhere in the article does it tell us important things like what the population is.

All of the history should be consilidated into one section, or possibly put into its own article, Im sure the history of Rome could easily fill its own article. G-Man 22:27, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Zotvo and Favoald
Who are these people? Chalk it up to my ignorance maybe, but I've never heard of either one, and no Zotvo or Favoald (Favoaldo, Favoaldus) is mentioned by Bury, Gibbon, or Cotterill; they make no independent appearance online, either.

I frankly suspect a copyright trap in the original article -- what was the source of that article, anyway? I hope we don't have a copyvio here.

Bill 13:45, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I've been looking, but been completely unable to find independent reference to them on or off the Web. I've removed them. The history of the High Middle Ages, to which Zot and Fav are said to belong, is so obscure, that I suspect copyvio even more; and some of the English is such that I suspect translation from some other language as well. The person I thought was the original poster says he knows nothing about the subject, but did not address the question "Where did the text come from?": which further disturbs me. — Bill 18:42, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I've been looking to (seemed an interesting puzzle) and I think I found a reference for the names in the Historia gentis Langobardorum. Fav is probably Faruald of Spoleto and Zot is Zotto of Beneventum. http://www.northvegr.org/lore/langobard/015.php Chardon

 * Terrific detective work, Chardon, and some great side benefits. I didn't trust the details of that webpage since it's full of typos, but of course went to my copy of Paul Deacon (a Latin-Italian bilingual edition that I pounced on in Italy a few years ago, precisely because, as the website says, the English translation is indeed rare), and in III.13 found the full passage, and note that the webpage skips "Faroald" and indeed other words (it may have been scanned in such a way as to skip the last words of each line, I've seen this type of scanning error elsewhere), bringing up the name only in connection with Hartmann:
 * "In that time too Faroald, the first leader/ dux of the Spoletans, invading Classis with an army of Lombards, left the wealthy city despoiled and bare of all its riches." (my translation)
 * Despite the scan errors, that page's quote of Hartman "Zotto" Googles as if correct, and matches names of the period, so we can consider this SOLVED.
 * Now here's where I get back to thanking you for the side benefits. (1) You've alerted me to a public domain English translation of Paul Deacon, which I will probably put online on the Roman Texts section of my own site. Dumb dumb dumb of me, though, not to have seen it on Camden's site that I routinely and constantly go to, and whom I've been helping for years; (2) I've been meaning to put Hodgkin online as well, now that I have Bury: this just about seals it.
 * In sum, win-win for everybody, and thanks again. The only remaining problem is that copyvio, or unattributed material, is now almost certain. It might be fun to find the original text — a candidate now is an English translation of Hartmann? — I've tried, and will probably keep on trying: will you do better? (Yes, probably!) Best, Bill 12:07, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No luck I'm afraid. According to the library of congress hartmann hasn't been translated. Fav and Zot where added on april 17 this year by a non-member with a Greek ip adress. So it could be Greek spelling. German names are often mangled by Greeks (disclaimer: I don't speak Greek). There hasn't been a new post from him/her since may. Btw ζοτωο and φαωοαλδ don't show anything on Google :)

Can anyone identify this site?

I took this photo two years ago and now I can't remember what it is. It's somewhere near the Pantheon, I think. Adam 07:27, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is the Largo di Torre Argentina, containing among other the remains of Pompey's Theater on the Campus Martius, the place where Julius Caesar was stabbed. It's a little south of the Pantheon, Rome. Check out Roma Online Guide for more information. In fact, this could use a bit more info in the Wikipedia. --Reiner Martin 22:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Grazie, signore. The photo is public domain so if there is an article it can be attached to, feel free. Adam 02:00, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Peoples of Early Italy
I restored this section because it provides a context for much of the rest of the Early history section. It is impossible to write and informative and effective history of Rome without providing at least a small amount of the history of areas around Rome. Without this section the section on Etruscan Dominance is difficult to understand and later reference to the Gaul's sacking Rome and Rome gaining control over the Greek territory in Southern Italy come out of nowhere.--Heathcliff 21:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree with you. Reporting how the Etruscans called themselves, or the discussion around their origin, does not help understanding their relationship with Rome.--Panairjdde 12:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Proposal of splitting
The article is currently (25 May 2005) too long. Maybe it would be nice to move the History part to a new page, afterall, if there's a History of Toulouse there could be a History of Rome as well!--Panairjdde 16:01, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I said that ages ago, but no-one took any notice. G-Man 00:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Its not really too long, 31kb is perfectly fine. However I think it would be nice to get rid of part of it then expand on the monuments and other sections. Right now it is just one big history article Falphin 03:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Well if nobody objects within the next few days then I will split the article. G-Man 20:56, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally agree.--Revas 13:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Moved
Why was this paged moved to Roma(city)? Falphin 22:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This move appears to contravene the naming policy, which states that cities should be given their English name. This should be put back asap. G-Man 23:13, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Improvement Drive
The article Culture of Italy has been listed to be improved on This week's improvement drive. You can add your vote there if you would like to support the article.--Fenice 14:20, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Credit for model photo
The credit under the photo of the model must remain there, otherwise the photo must be removed per the terms of the photo's owner (with whom I corresponded; please see the talk page for the image). He requires that this text appear on every page where the photo is visible. I've restored the credit; I apologize if it should go elsewhere on the page. Dppowell 15:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Mention of Cats?
Should this article mention Rome's colonies of cats? They're an interesting feature of the city and could fit under a Trivia heading. Impaciente 19:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The mention about cats is prominently in Largo di Torre Argentina; futhermore, if you speak about cats, why not about pidgeons and rats?--Panairjdde 08:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Cats are more noteworthy than rats and pigeons because most large cities do not have such a large number of roving packs of cats that seem to have found acceptance and even a small level of fame. When have you seen a calendar devoted to "The Rats of New York?" Impaciente 16:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Golly, the number of wonderful ideas on Wikipedia! What a good idea in fact for a calendar; but surely someone has done The Rats of New York, wouldn't you say? Bill 17:38, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Roman pidgeons (storni) are quite noteworthy, since they used several new methods to get them away. Furthemore, how many cities have such an old colony of rats?--Panairjdde 08:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Cats are indeed important to Romans. In fact, the cats of Largo di Torre Argentina have a voluntary organisation that exists to ensure they are fed. And local legend has it that the Comune di Roma replaces scrawny or tubby tabbies with more photogenic ones for the tourists.--FJY 00:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, Rome's cats have been declared a kind of "National monument" here in Rome (more specifcally: "biocultural legacy"). 151.32.28.38 18:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Paring down the lists and links
The "Churches" section: another case of list-and-link creep. Everybody adds a link or an item to a list, and before you know it, we have a long silly-looking collection of mere names on the page. That's one of the good uses of the Category system; I therefore removed as many list items as I could, to replace them with a single link to Category:Churches of Rome — which has the further advantage of making the links automatically update. Those churches for which I still couldn't find Wiki articles, I left: but commented out, a request that as those articles get written, those links be removed as well.

Frankly, the Basilica list seems silly to me as well, but I didn't dare undertake further surgery; if someone else does it, it's fine by me. . . . Bill 12:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hearing no objection, as they say, I did. The pomposity and pedantry of repeating "Basilica" is gone, and "Saint" is now replaced thruout by "St." The Italian forms Santa, etc. I kept since they're non-obvious information for the English-speaking reader. I deleted the subgrouping "Paleochristian basilicas" because (a) it suggests some kind of parallelism with "Major basilicas", when there is none; (b) many of the "Major" and "Other" are in fact as paleochristian as those. Furthermore, S. Lorenzo should have been placed, as the Category system indeed did place it, among the patriarchal basilicas.

 * The list is still imperfect, mostly, again, thru pedantry: no one ever refers to S. Maria sopra Minerva, for example, as "St. Mary over Minerva". While "St. Peter's Basilica", "St. John Lateran", etc. are in common use, past a certain level the English-speaker sufficiently savvy to know of the lesser churches will refer to them by their Italian names. Bill 11:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Continued.... Now someone, seeing only a small list, has started pumping it up again, with empty links. If you want to add a church, why not add the article too! I removed S. Andrea, since it has its article; and S. Maria in Traspontina, because, although physically large, it really does not qualify as important; there are quite a few very large churches in the city that are not really noteworthy, except to the specialist: S. Carlo ai Catinari, for example. There are also a number of small, even tiny, churches that are much more significant: I'm not mentioning them, for fear someone pick up on them and pump that list up further with more empty links. Bill 10:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Starting over again with the equally long, barren, pointless list of "Monuments and sites" (sic); put a single link to the Category:Monuments and sights of Rome instead. Same benefits as for the churches. (I'm going to get to the basilicas soon, which after all are just another group of churches; and most people, both visitors and Romans, call them and think of them as just plain churches. . . .). Bill 17:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 * List and categories are not interchangeable. A list can point to empty articles, prompting for additions. A list can have a short description to orient readers on what they'll find there. --Error 01:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Is Rome a city or a town?
To me, and I believe to most rational people, Rome is a major world city. I bring up the question because there is a young resident of Rome who insists upon calling it a town. His reasoning is that the only "city" in the world is New York. He has, of course the right to any dilusion that pleases him, but he has been changing the word 'city' in the main Rome article here to 'town'. I believe this is wrong, but don't know what to do about it other than expose it here.

Nat —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.29.136.188 (talk • contribs).

Truly major cleanup needed
With the exception of the current "Transportation" section, the article Rome is currently a glorified (though disorganized and poorly-Wikified/formatted) stub, artificially bloated by numerous trivial lists. The whole concept of creating sub-articles relies on the ability of editors to effectively, concisely, and thoroughly summarize all of the important information from those sub-articles when they are moved off into new pages. That doesn't seem to have occurred here, so we're left with a husk of an article serving mainly as an unnecessary list of poorly-formatted links. Also, where in Wikipedia's required "Cite sources" policy does it say that it's acceptable for articles to remain totally unreferenced and just say "see our sub-pages for the references to this article"? Clearly not acceptable: Rome needs to be cited exactly like all other articles do. Furthermore, most of Rome's sub-articles have little to no citation either. Don't believe me? Let's count all of this article's sub-pages: Province of Rome, a stub with zero references; Administrative subdivision of Rome, a stub-list with zero references; Churches of Rome, a giant, 10-page list without a single reference; History of Rome, a bloated, un-user-friendly, twenty-five-page mammoth of an article that somehow manages to have only three references, all three completely ignoring Wikipedia citation style and devoid of all of the details that are required for people to check up on them.

If all of this article's issues continue to be ignored while editors make only superficial fixes, I'll have to submit this article to Collaboration of the week, the place for important stubs to receive community attention, so it can get the broader focus it needs to resolve these deeply-rooted problems. Though a good job has been done of polishing up this article and making it pretty and with many of the basic facts required, the core of the article, its content, has become rotten and full of trivial lists in place of real, solid, prose-based content. Major work is needed. -Silence 19:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

 * "[...]the article Rome is currently a glorified (though disorganized and poorly-Wikified/formatted) stub, artificially bloated by numerous trivial lists [...]" I completely disagree with you. I do not think it is disorganized, since it is clearly divided into sections. I do not think it is poorly wikified (could you make an example, please?). I do not understand what you mean with poorly formatted. I do not see trivial lists, apart, maybe, the basilica section. I removed (your?) stub-tag addition to history section, since we happily removed about 30kBytes of History of Rome, and the history section is fair enough.
 * As regards the references, note that the "see our sub-pages for the references to this article" is applied, among others to articles such as Italy and Austria. Furthermore, if the informations are taken from these sub pages and copied here, the sub pages should report the references, not this page.
 * You are, however, free to submit this article to Collaboration of the week, if you feel.--Panairjdde 19:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, there's something to that, actually. Not very good, and at fault is Wikipedia's system itself, which over time tends to produce a patchwork of minute pieces. If someone invests the work and time needed to make something unified, within 6 months it'll be right back where we started.... Bill 20:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Transportation: get a ticket!
i had to remove the following from the transport section: "and can also be used free as the Italian ticket inspectors have not been seen since the early 90's." i wonder who wrote this rubbish. inspections are frequent and even if there were none, metros are not free. --J0mb 20:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

And I confirm that: inspections are frequent; to say nothing of the irresponsibility of inciting stray readers to go out and cheat the system. Bill 20:23, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Confronto trasporto pubblico urbano a Roma e a Caracas (in spagnolo)
 * Giuramento di Simon Bolivar en el Montesacro a Roma (in spagnolo)

Minorities
I mover this anonymous contribution here: "The largest foreign groups in the city are Romanians, Albanians, and Egyptians." It could be true. If it stands up to scrutiny or can be sourced, please return an edited version to the article. --Wetman 15:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The article should be updated with the data from http://demo.istat.it/str2005/index.html. It should moreover mention that these are the figures about regular resident people. There are also clandestine foreign people. Laurusnobilis 10:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Population figure
I too have reverted to the 2,546,807 figure. I don't know where either that or the 2,800,000 figure comes from, but the official ISTAT site gives a 2003 figure of 2,540,829; an increase of 6,000 in a year is much more likely than an increase of nearly 300,000. Bill 10:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Have you realised that the metropolitan area says 4 million yet thet says 2,5 million ish?! I'M CONFUSED!
 * The city proper is 2+ million; the metropolitan area is the entire province of Rome, which includes heavily populated suburbs, exurbia, and lots of just plain non-Rome. Bill 12:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Population figure: Official Population 2005: 3.487.367 (ISTAT!!)
 * More Details soon! I live in Rome...
 * 13:34 20.01.2006

 * You may live in Rome, but if the figures don't multiply, they have to be wrong. If you have a verifiable online source for the ISTAT figures you give, don't be coy — let us know. It is most unlikely, mind you, that Rome would have gained a third of its population in 2 years, leaping from 2.5 million to 3.5 million. Anyway, see next. Bill 12:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I restored the ISTAT population figure, and the area as found on the reliable DB Metropolis site, and adjusted the density to the figure I got by dividing one into the other. The figures that had been there before were completely out of whack, and didn't multiply: so it's clear they'd been vandalized. The latest person to do so has been warned. In future, those riding the article should check periodically that the area times the density equals the population figure.

 * I'm only going to do this once (actually I've done it once or twice before), because now I'm fed up; but for those of you with more time, here are the current official figures so you can fix future vandalism without having to redo the process: 2540829 inhabitants in 1,285 km2, make 1977 inhabitants/km2. Bill 12:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * "Secondo il nuovo censimento istat del 2005 Roma vanta 3.487.367 di cui 1.880.000 donne 1.607.000 uomini,nella provincia però si contano ben 4.347.000 che contengono paesi come Guidonia Velletri Ladispoli ecc ecc sempre nello stesso censimento si scopre che ci sono a Roma centro 1.850.000 abitanti e borgate 1.637.000 comprendono Ottavia e Prima Porta si scopre inoltre che....." http://www.istat.it/

 * OK, sappiamo dove si trova il sito ISTAT; invece, la pagina in quel sito quasi innavigabile? I dati del 2003 sono online a http://demo.istat.it/pop2003/index1.html. Ottavia e Prima Porta sono nei limiti della città? Forse vuol dire che, per le misure di Wikipeida, la popolazione sarebbe piuttosto caduta a "Roma centro 1.850.000"?? Bill 13:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * credo di no... se dicono centro forse voul dire "il centro-citta"... se lo trovo online lo metto dentro. Io lo letto sui giornali... scusa se scrivo strano, sto scrivendo dalla svizzera ed`o la tastiera svizzera.... :_)

 * Le cose che s' imparano sulla Wiki! Non sapevo nemmeno che ci fosse una tastiera svizzera... Bill 13:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * :-) http://www.language-keyboard.com/layouts-keyboard-1-language.htm#s

Go to see the data the registry office of Rome can provide about its real population. Mention that Rome has many zones in which many people live being not registered. Something like "bidon-villes" and this kind of stuff.

Streamlining, 21 Jan 06
Other than the curious misspelling "christian", the rest of those edits were fine. A link to Italy need not be repeated every time the word appears, and it's already linked in the first paragraph. The Romulus etc. bit doesn't belong here any more, now that there is a separate History article; and if it did, it would be in the History squib. Bill 02:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

AID
Let's get some more votes for this article. We met the last deadline already. Let's keep them going. Sicilianmandolin 17:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is of low quality for a city such as Rome. I hope it is chosen as the AID eventually, because to be honest, it needs it. For now, I'm submitting Rome to peer review. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Eponymous cities" category
For some reason the Edit summary box refused to take what I entered, so here it is instead: rv I can't imagine what the editor was thinking; I hope it wasn't that Rome was named after the goddess Roma!!! The origin of the city name is unknown, of which the goddess is a personification (i.e., it's the other way round). Bill 22:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Rome/Archive 1


text:
User:Arab~enwiki

Arab (noun) - descibes a person of Arabic descent.

Historically, an Arab is descendant from one of two sons of the Prophet Abraham. The other son's linage is claimed by the Jews.

title: User:Arab~enwiki


text:
Blood vessel

Blood vessels are the structures of the circulatory system that transport blood throughout the human body. These vessels transport blood cells, nutrients, and oxygen to the tissues of the body. They also take waste and carbon dioxide away from the tissues. Blood vessels are needed to sustain life, because all of the body's tissues rely on their functionality.

There are five types of blood vessels: the arteries, which carry the blood away from the heart; the arterioles; the capillaries, where the exchange of water and chemicals between the blood and the tissues occurs; the venules; and the veins, which carry blood from the capillaries back towards the heart.

The word vascular, meaning relating to the blood vessels, is derived from the Latin vas, meaning vessel. Some structures – such as cartilage, the epithelium, and the lens and cornea of the eye – do not contain blood vessels and are labeled avascular.

Etymology

 * artery: late Middle English; from Latin arteria, from Greek artēria, probably from airein ("raise")
 * vein: Middle English; from Old French veine, from Latin vena. The earliest senses were "blood vessel" and "small natural underground channel of water".
 * capillary: mid 17th century; from Latin capillaris, from capillus ("hair"), influenced by Old French capillaire.

Structure
The arteries and veins have three layers. The middle layer is thicker in the arteries than it is in the veins:
 * The inner layer, tunica intima, is the thinnest layer. It is a single layer of flat cells (simple squamous epithelium) glued by a polysaccharide intercellular matrix, surrounded by a thin layer of subendothelial connective tissue interlaced with a number of circularly arranged elastic bands called the internal elastic lamina. A thin membrane of elastic fibers in the tunica intima run parallel to the vessel.
 * The middle layer tunica media is the thickest layer in arteries. It consists of circularly arranged elastic fiber, connective tissue, polysaccharide substances, the second and third layer are separated by another thick elastic band called external elastic lamina. The tunica media may (especially in arteries) be rich in vascular smooth muscle, which controls the caliber of the vessel. Veins do not have the external elastic lamina, but only an internal one. The tunica media is thicker in the arteries rather than the veins.
 * The outer layer is the tunica adventitia and the thickest layer in veins. It is entirely made of connective tissue. It also contains nerves that supply the vessel as well as nutrient capillaries (vasa vasorum) in the larger blood vessels.

Capillaries consist of a single layer of endothelial cells with a supporting subendothelium consisting of a basement membrane and connective tissue.

When blood vessels connect to form a region of diffuse vascular supply it is called an anastomosis. Anastomoses provide critical alternative routes for blood to flow in case of blockages.

Leg veins have valves which prevent backflow of the blood being pumped against gravity by the surrounding muscles.

Types
There are various kinds of blood vessels:
 * Arteries
 * Elastic arteries
 * Distributing arteries
 * Arterioles
 * Capillaries (smallest blood vessels)
 * Venules
 * Veins
 * Large collecting vessels, such as the subclavian vein, the jugular vein, the renal vein and the iliac vein.
 * Venae cavae (the two largest veins, carry blood into the heart).
 * Sinusoids
 * Extremely small vessels located within bone marrow, the spleen and the liver.

They are roughly grouped as "arterial" and "venous", determined by whether the blood in it is flowing away from (arterial) or toward (venous) the heart. The term "arterial blood" is nevertheless used to indicate blood high in oxygen, although the pulmonary artery carries "venous blood" and blood flowing in the pulmonary vein is rich in oxygen. This is because they are carrying the blood to and from the lungs, respectively, to be oxygenated.

Function
Blood vessels function to transport blood. In general, arteries and arterioles transport oxygenated blood from the lungs to the body and its organs, and veins and venules transport deoxygenated blood from the body to the lungs. Blood vessels also circulate blood throughout the circulatory system. Oxygen (bound to hemoglobin in red blood cells) is the most critical nutrient carried by the blood. In all arteries apart from the pulmonary artery, hemoglobin is highly saturated (95–100%) with oxygen. In all veins apart from the pulmonary vein, the saturation of hemoglobin is about 75%. (The values are reversed in the pulmonary circulation.) In addition to carrying oxygen, blood also carries hormones, waste products and nutrients for cells of the body.

Blood vessels do not actively engage in the transport of blood (they have no appreciable peristalsis). Blood is propelled through arteries and arterioles through pressure generated by the heartbeat. Blood vessels also transport red blood cells which contain the oxygen necessary for daily activities. The amount of red blood cells present in your vessels has an effect on your health. Hematocrit tests can be performed to calculate the proportion of red blood cells in your blood. Higher proportions result in conditions such as dehydration or heart disease while lower proportions could lead to anemia and long-term blood loss.

Permeability of the endothelium is pivotal in the release of nutrients to the tissue. It is also increased in inflammation in response to histamine, prostaglandins and interleukins, which leads to most of the symptoms of inflammation (swelling, redness, warmth and pain).

Constriction
Arteries—and veins to a degree—can regulate their inner diameter by contraction of the muscular layer. This changes the blood flow to downstream organs, and is determined by the autonomic nervous system. Vasodilation and vasoconstriction are also used antagonistically as methods of thermoregulation.

The size of blood vessels is different for each of them. It ranges from a diameter of about 25 millimeters for the aorta to only 8 micrometers in the capillaries. This comes out to about a 3000-fold range. Vasoconstriction is the constriction of blood vessels (narrowing, becoming smaller in cross-sectional area) by contracting the vascular smooth muscle in the vessel walls. It is regulated by vasoconstrictors (agents that cause vasoconstriction). These include paracrine factors (e.g. prostaglandins), a number of hormones (e.g. vasopressin and angiotensin) and neurotransmitters (e.g. epinephrine) from the nervous system.

Vasodilation is a similar process mediated by antagonistically acting mediators. The most prominent vasodilator is nitric oxide (termed endothelium-derived relaxing factor for this reason).

Flow
The circulatory system uses the channel of blood vessels to deliver blood to all parts of the body. This is a result of the left and right side of the heart working together to allow blood to flow continuously to the lungs and other parts of the body. Oxygen-poor blood enters the right side of the heart through two large veins. Oxygen-rich blood from the lungs enters through the pulmonary veins on the left side of the heart into the aorta and then reaches the rest of the body. The capillaries are responsible for allowing the blood to receive oxygen through tiny air sacs in the lungs. This is also the site where carbon dioxide exits the blood. This all occurs in the lungs where blood is oxygenated.

The blood pressure in blood vessels is traditionally expressed in millimetres of mercury (1 mmHg = 133 Pa). In the arterial system, this is usually around 120 mmHg systolic (high pressure wave due to contraction of the heart) and 80 mmHg diastolic (low pressure wave). In contrast, pressures in the venous system are constant and rarely exceed 10 mmHg.

Vascular resistance occurs where the vessels away from the heart oppose the flow of blood. Resistance is an accumulation of three different factors: blood viscosity, blood vessel length, and vessel radius.

Blood viscosity is the thickness of the blood and its resistance to flow as a result of the different components of the blood. Blood is 92% water by weight and the rest of blood is composed of protein, nutrients, electrolytes, wastes, and dissolved gases. Depending on the health of an individual, the blood viscosity can vary (i.e. anemia causing relatively lower concentrations of protein, high blood pressure an increase in dissolved salts or lipids, etc.).

Vessel length is the total length of the vessel measured as the distance away from the heart. As the total length of the vessel increases, the total resistance as a result of friction will increase.

Vessel radius also affects the total resistance as a result of contact with the vessel wall. As the radius of the wall gets smaller, the proportion of the blood making contact with the wall will increase. The greater amount of contact with the wall will increase the total resistance against the blood flow.

Disease
Blood vessels play a huge role in virtually every medical condition. Cancer, for example, cannot progress unless the tumor causes angiogenesis (formation of new blood vessels) to supply the malignant cells' metabolic demand. Atherosclerosis, the narrowing of the blood vessels due to the buildup of plaque, and the coronary artery disease that often follows can cause heart attacks or cardiac arrest and is the leading cause of death worldwide resulting in 8.9 million deaths or 16% of all deaths.

Blood vessel permeability is increased in inflammation. Damage, due to trauma or spontaneously, may lead to hemorrhage due to mechanical damage to the vessel endothelium. In contrast, occlusion of the blood vessel by atherosclerotic plaque, by an embolised blood clot or a foreign body leads to downstream ischemia (insufficient blood supply) and possibly infarction (necrosis due to lack of blood supply). Vessel occlusion tends to be a positive feedback system; an occluded vessel creates eddies in the normally laminar flow or plug flow blood currents. These eddies create abnormal fluid velocity gradients which push blood elements such as cholesterol or chylomicron bodies to the endothelium. These deposit onto the arterial walls which are already partially occluded and build upon the blockage.

The most common disease of the blood vessels is hypertension or high blood pressure. This is caused by an increase in the pressure of the blood flowing through the vessels. Hypertension can lead to more serious conditions such as heart failure and stroke. To prevent these diseases, the most common treatment option is medication as opposed to surgery. Aspirin helps prevent blood clots and can also help limit inflammation.

Vasculitis is inflammation of the vessel wall, due to autoimmune disease or infection.

title: Blood vessel


text:
Dry ski slope

A dry ski slope or artificial ski slope is a ski slope that mimics the attributes of snow using materials that are stable at room temperature, to enable people to ski, snowboard or snow tube in places where natural, snow-covered slopes are inconvenient or unavailable.

Although commonly known as "dry ski slopes", many slopes are lubricated using a mist or jet system to increase speed and prevent damage to equipment from friction heat build-up. As a general rule, they are found predominantly in the United Kingdom and the Netherlands as other European countries tend to have ready access to real snow fields, as does North America in the winter.

Early materials
A variety of materials can be found on dry ski slopes.

Early efforts to mimic snow involved laying extruded plastic tiles with upward spikes in an attempt to provide grip. These were unpopular as they provided little grip and turning capability and the experience was similar to skiing across ice.

However, in present day, many ski slopes (both indoor and outdoor) continue to use plastic, injection moulded tiles. Quality has improved and many dry ski slopes in the Netherlands use these tiles for training and championships.

Brush materials
The next stage in dry ski slope development came with the brush industry. The most common material is Dendix which is a by-product of brush manufacturing and is similar to a short-haired brush with the bristles sticking upwards. Dendix is manufactured in Chepstow, however it can be found on slopes throughout the world. It is arranged in a hexagonal pattern of approximately 1 in strips of bristles in a 4 in hexagon. Although it was a significant advancement from previous surfaces, concern over damage to slope users (it provides little or no impact protection to a slope user when falling) and ski or snowboard damage due to friction meant litigation for slopes using it was a constant threat. Nowadays water is often sprayed onto the surface of the dendix to lubricate it and increase speed; however, higher insurance premiums cause many slope operators to look for safer alternatives.

Despite more recent materials, Dendix remains the most popular plastic slope material in use.

Recent materials
The most recent development has seen a crop of materials providing both impact protection and slope lubrication as well as the ability to perform turns, erect jumps, rails and quarterpipes and provide a ride that is closer to the feel of real snow. Neveplast is one of these, a newer material whose use is becoming even more common. This new type of mat, which uses a concentric arrangement of conical stems, is marketed for downhill, snowboarding and cross country skiing. Neveplast claims to be certified as having the same coefficient of friction between the surface and the ski as snow, allowing the skier a good side grip, with the same skis used on the snow, and without the need for water. The Neveplast cooling hole has a comparable diameter to the F.I.S. slalom pole standards used for training and competition in both slalom and giant slalom. Neveplast is also used for school camps. This surface is modular and flexible, used frequently also for Urban freestyle parks. A German provider that guarantees year round skiing is Mr. Snow. The company does not only produce dry slopes for downhill skiing, snowboarding and cross country skiing but also provides tubing tracks and rental opportunities for events. The material of Mr. Snow is claimed to have very good sliding capacities, is predictable in all climates and does not harm the ski or sliding surface. Mr. Snow works without the use of silicone which is not necessary to achieve good sliding characteristics. The snow carpet evidently has no negative environmental impact. So the mats can remain on the surface 365 days a year. But it is also possible to remove them very quickly if it is required. Temporary using can be realized with the 20 sqm modules.

Another very common mat is Snowflex, manufactured near Huddersfield, West Yorkshire in England by Briton Engineering Developments Limited. Others include Perma-snow by John Nike Leisure/ Techmat 2000, also in the UK and Astroride by NorCal Extreme Sports in the United States. Snowflex and Perma-snow are both white in colour, although the former has been produced in a darker green (such as in Kendal Ski Club in Cumbria, England) to comply with planning requirements. There is no indication from NorCal Extreme Sports that AstroRide has been commercially tested to any great extent. The latest arrival is from UK company Proslope who produce a matting with variable filament lengths to emulate the gradual edge grip and release of snow. As with some other surfaces, the system is coloured white, is modular, and works both with and without a misting system.

A type of Enoki mushroom dry ski slope surface from China. Countless thin strips with round balls on the top, resembling a mushroom-like shape, make the surface of the run-in slopes of the Training Centre airbag jumps differently from other dry slope surfaces in terms of sliding effect and safety. Its structure, friction, elasticity, safety protection, and simulation effect provide an ideal surface for airbag beginners and high-performance athletes. The surface allows the rider to either carve or skid to aid in speed control or line choice. It is possible to turn on the surface quite well, but the aim is to maintain a low edge angle and make small adjustments to create speed or set your line. This type of dry ski mat appeared for the first time at a FIS World Cup competition.

Ski and board preparation
Dry slope users often improve the performance of their equipment by using the hardest grade of ski wax. The wax wears off quickly, however, and must be renewed after one or two sessions. At least one company makes a hard wax that is intended for use on dry slopes. Some users apply aerosol furniture polish or other can-based products to the bases of their skis or boards as the silicone oil it contains is reputed to reduce friction. Other substances, such as dishwashing liquid, are sometimes used.

title: Dry ski slope