text:
Talk:Catherine de' Medici

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

Basically a B class, needs an infobox and more references.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 15:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Basically a Start Class. A good effort, but contains many historical inaccuracies or unsupported statements. Greater need of reliable sources. Why so much reliance on the Frieda biography? Frieda is not a professional historian, and her book, albeit popular is frankly little more reliable than Dumas. Nicholas.

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicholas515 (talk • contribs) 01:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree that this reads well but the sourcing seems poor and popular rather than based on scholarly work. And I can't find the primary reference to Frieda (who does seem like the wrong book to be using? Surely there are better?) in the article. Actio (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

one thing missing
I just want to say: incredible work on this subject. Im pretty sure this is the most detailed biography of all wikipedia biographies. I noticed one thing was missing - cultural depictions of Catherine De Medici. Was she part of any fiction? novels? films? etc. Would like to know that. 77.250.25.165 (talk) 12:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Constantly! --PL (talk) 15:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

source
Just to weigh in on behalf of the Italians, I don't see why anyone other than the French should put an "s" at the end of her name. Her family name was Medici - one of the most famous and respected family names in Italian and world history. The prefix "de'" (an abbreviation for "dei") translates in English to "of the." She was literally "Catherine of the Medici" - In Italian "Caterina de' Medici." I understand that since this is the English language Wikipedia, we say Catherine instead of Caterina, but the last name should remain unchanged. Certainly, it makes sense to mention the French spelling and pronunciation in the article, since she was the Queen of France for many years, but to generally refer to her in this way is confusing and breaks the continuity with the rest of her famous family. It is true that there are many repetitions of first names in the Medici family tree, which can make historical analysis confusing. I agree that "Caterina Di Lorenzo de' Medici" is complex and not very practical. Her father's name was indeed Lorenzo, however, the more famous Lorenzo in her family was her great grandfather Lorenzo "Il Magnifico" (the magnificent.) Italians often use such "nicknames" to distinguish between members of the Medici family (and other historical figures). For example, the eldest Cosimo in the Medici family tree is referred to as Cosimo "Il Vecchio" (the elder), to differentiate him from later Cosimo's. Lorenzo  "Il Magnifico" had a father Piero, who was known as "Il Gottoso," or "The gouty" because of his health problems. This differentiates him from Lorenzo's "the magnificent's" son Piero di Lorenzo. You can see how this can get really complicated after a while, with so many repeated names and nicknames (and various foreign spellings and pronunciations.) I think somewhere on Wikipedia there should be a Medici family tree with all of these names and the nicknames as well, but for individuals such as Catherine who stand out in their own right historically, I don't think there is any reason to complicate things. In the English speaking world, she's known and should remain known as Catherine de'Medici.

DonatelloNYC (talk) 03:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Original text from 1911 encyclopedia. Has been copyeditited, wikified, and revised somewhat for NPOV. It still needs a thorough review by someone with a background in the modern study of history. -- April

Any reason why the page title and article subject disagree in the final "s"? -- Tarquin
 * I don't know where that came from; but i fixed it. --mav
 * It definitely has an "s" in French. -- t
 * Ah. Well then its not so bad to have that transliteration in the text then -- although the family name itself is still Italian, no? --mav

Montrealais, do you really want to include regents as successors to monarchs? France has had female regents, but never a queen regnant. -- Someone else 04:03 Nov 17, 2002 (UTC)

By Wikipedia naming conventions, an article should be named by the most widely used name in the English language. "Catherine de' Medici" has about 8,000 hits on Google. "Caterina Di Lorenzo de' Medici" has no hits at all. I think this page (and the other Medicis) should be moved back to their English names. -- JeLuF 21:05, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

See Talk:Lorenzo de' Medici and Talk:Medicis for some background to what's going on.

The problem is that due to reuse of first names, the family has: 2 Alesandro's, 5 Cosimo's, 3 Ferdinandinos, 6 Giovannis, 2 Giulianos, 2 Giulios, 5 Lorenzos, 2 Pieros, etc, etc. You get the idea. Over a third of these deserve pages, and as I started to add them, I started running into name conflicts when we were just calling them "X de' Medici".

I can see (and sympathize) your point about "Catherine de' Medici", but then instead of having one simple rule for almost all the Medici pages (which is that the page is under their full correct names, with redirects - which will become disambiguations in some cases - from the shorter names), we'd have all sorts of confusion.

Since any reference to "Catherine de' Medici" does wind up on the correct page, as do attempts to look her up, the fact that her data is under a name which is not the most common form seems to me a lesser evil that having all sorts of inconsistent namings for the pages of the family members. YMMV, but I don't think my changes are completely without reason.

Noel 21:57, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Will sleep about whether I like it ;-) -- JeLuF 22:18, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate it. BTW, I listed her name (at the top of her page) as "Caterina de' Medici, (French: Catherine de Médicis) (English: Catherine de' Medici)", putting her actual given name first, and then the variants in other languages. If you feel it would be more appropriate to invert that into "Catherine de' Medici, (Italian: Caterina de' Medici), (French: Catherine de Médicis)", I have no problem with that - there, I was just guessing as to what would be most appropriate, but the WikiNaming rule you point out might make sense there. Noel 22:40, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This page name is totally wrong! Nobody on the planet calls Catherine "Caterina di Lorenzo de' Medici." That is 1) Not used See Naming conventions (common names) 2) not in English, see Naming conventions (use English). I'm changing this page back

--mav

Well, I'm not going to get into a big fight over it. If other people want to know why Medici pages are named inconsistently, you can explain it to them.

I'll note that Naming conventions (common names) does say "that does not conflict with the names of other people or things", and the short forms of many of the Medici names *do* conflict, which is what started all this.

I'll further note that the Medici page has her as "Caterina de' Medici", not "Catherine de' Medici",  and *I* am not the person who did that.

Noel 23:48, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The de' is difficult in all ways, mostly because of that little '

This is English wikipedia, thus English should be used. As she lived both in Italy and in France, thus the de' and de are basically both correct, but impossible to combine, it could be "of". I vote for Catherine of Medici. 62.78.105.126 07:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Ever since the time when she moved to France, she has always been called 'Catherine de Médicis' (pronounced 'Medi-cease'), and countless sites and institutions are so named and pronounced to this day. People asking in France for them under the name 'Catherine de' Medici' will simply not be understood! Please note also that her husband is referred to in the article under his French name 'Henri'. Consistency, please! --PL 08:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

DonatelloNYC (talk) 03:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC) If I might interrupt here - Catherine was famous as a member of the Medici family BEFORE she moved to France (bringing her court's Italian culinary skills with her). Users of Wikipedia in English are not "people asking in France" - we are English speakers who search for the names that we know. I do agree though regarding "Henri." It is important to be consistent. DonatelloNYC (talk) 03:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Some users of Wikipedia in English do actually visit France sometimes, you know -- and they need to be able to pronounce the name properly, since it's everywhere! Anyway, the article as it stands now does seem to get it all in perspective. --PL (talk) 10:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If by 'Gallicised' you mean making the name look (and sound) French, I think you've got the pronounciation wrong. Spelt the way you suggest, and according to French pronounciation rules, it would be pronounced 'Medi-cee', with the emphasis on the last syllable and the final S not being heard. (English 'phonetics'.) LarRan 09:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I assure you that 'Medi-cease' is the correct pronunciation. It you don't believe me, watch the French LCP channel on a Saturday night at 2100 local time during term time, when you will be regaled with an eminent literary discussion-programme entitled 'Bibliothèque Médicis' (pronounced 'Medi-cease'), which is televised from the Bibliothèque Médicis in Paris. I'm afraid that 'French pronunciation rules' don't always apply to proper names! --PL 14:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * But then, as far as 'French pronunciation rules' are concerned:
 * 'bis' (= twice/Encore!) is pronounced 'beece'
 * 'fils' (son) is pronounced 'feece'
 * 'vis' (screw) is pronounced 'veece'
 * 'lis' (lily) is pronounced 'leece'
 * 'cis-' (on this side of) is pronounced 'cease' (or 'seize' before vowel) and (ahem)
 * 'Médicis' is pronounced 'Medi-cease' (see any relevant dictionary, such as Harrap's Standard English and French Dictionary of 1934). --PL 08:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * We have to use one of the names she's called in English, which are "Catherine de' Medici" and "Catherine de Medici". The former is the title of the article and seems to me preferable. This is the style R. J. Knecht uses for his biography Catherine de' Medici, the best recent work I have come across on Catherine in English.

 * I'm slowly undertaking an improvement to this article and ironing out the Henry/Henri thing as I come to it. The best style, I think, is to use "Henry/Francis" for the major players and Henri/François for the lesser, according with Wikipedia article titles and most books in English. Contradiction is inevitable, and it exists in the scholarly sources also: the only way to achieve consistency would be to write all names in the French versions and change the names of hundreds of articles.qp10qp 09:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Why do we have to use one of the names she's called in English, which are "Catherine de' Medici" and "Catherine de Medici" -- when neither was her name at any time during her reign? As I have pointed out, 'de Médicis' was not just a different spelling, but a different name, and the only one by which she is known in France. Centuries of erroneous English references (including Britannica) shouldn't be informing the article. Have you bothered to refer to the French version of the article, every one of whose references is to 'Catherine de Médicis'? --PL 14:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC).

 * We have to use one of those names because those are the names she's called in the sources referenced. It would be original thought to use her name as it appears in French sources. Yes, of course, I have read the French version of the article (it was one of the first things I did); but it didn't occur to me to change her name in the English article as a result: why would it?qp10qp 18:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Or to paraphrase, we use the English-language names of things because this is the English-language Wikipedia; we don't ignore history and make up new names for things (people, places, whatever) or adopt foreign-language names when a standard English-language name is common, for a "best-of-all-possible-worlds" English Wikipedia, wherein everything is called what it "ought" to be called. For something with multiple names (or common misspellings) there need to be redirects for the less-preferred alternates.
 * And this issue is by no means unique to this article; if we start down the path of "fixing" names, then we would need to "fix" Erik the Red, Pliny the Elder, Julius Caesar, Jesus, MacBeth (the historical figure, not the play), Xerxes 1, etc., etc. Mangling foreign-language names has been a fine tradition for the last few millenia; while that's more or less stopped now, we're not going to reverse history here. Studerby 17:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Looking back at the above, it seems to me that Noel's solution might be the best one, combining as it does both source tradition and accuracy. --PL 08:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

 * It's still not clear to me why the "'" is used for the name of the page, but NOWHERE else in the article, even to explain the difference. This makes it look like an error. CFLeon (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Children
It is very unclear from this article who Catherine's children were and many of them aren't even mentioned (such as her first son, Francis II who was King of France). The Valois line of kings in the article seems to be the completely wrong timeframe as the last king listed is Charles VIII who died before Catherine was born.

I am going to add the box of Henry II's children from his article (they are Catherine's as well) and changing the Valois branch to the Valois-Angoulême branch list of Monarchs. Someone please correct me if there is a reason not to do this. -- Jdvelasc 22:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Maguerite de Valois and Nostradamus
I have removed the tendentious reference to Maguerite de Valois' Memoirs: they in fact contain only one sentence about the death of Henri II (quoted in translation in my edit review). Similarly the nonsense about Nostradamus: for June of 1559 (not '1555' -- sorry!) he had predicted only that 'France shall greatly grow, triumph, be magnified, and much more so its Monarch.' Quatrain I.35, often supposed to have predicted the death of the King (especially if mistranslated as per a few edits ago!), was not in fact linked to it for the first time in print until 1614, 55 years later! It is perfectly clear from their writings that neither Nostradamus nor his secretary, Chavigny, had any idea of the proposed link. Thus, I have removed the Nostradamus references as well, even though he certainly had links with the Queen (not mentioned in the article). Please see the relevant article. --PL (talk) 16:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

 * That's very helpful. If you see any other mistakes in the article (whether editors' fault or sources' fault), please could you remove them or mention them here. qp10qp (talk) 16:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

 * By the way, Nostradamus is now mentioned in a note—non credulously. qp10qp (talk) 00:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Making cuts
I intend to cut the article down to a more reasonable length. Please don't be alarmed (I added the excess baggage myself in the first place): the material won't be wasted and will go into related articles, particularly those of the six kings (Francis I to Henry IV), in the future. qp10qp (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC) Bold text

disambiguation
The following links need a disambig:

dauphin

dauphine

blood feud

cardinal of lorraine

francois

Randomblue (talk) 10:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I fixed dauphin, blood feud, and Cardinal of Lorraine. Dauphine goes to the best page already, even though it is a disambiguation page of sorts, and I can't find any bare references to François. Yomangani talk 10:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I replaced Catherine's birthtime which is accurate.The eleven o'clock birthtime is not correct. If you wish to remove it, go ahead, I wont make anymore reverts. By the way, that other editor was not a vandal. By the Gregorian calendar Catherine was born on 23 April 1519. Just as George Washington was born 11 February by the Old Style calendar but his birthday is celebrated on 22 February after Gregorian was finally adopted in Britain and the Colonies.jeanne (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry if I assumed vandalism, but, as I expect you know, there are constant sneaky changes to dates in articles by people who wish us harm. I have removed the date again because the source used contradicts it; as you know, if we change information without changing the source, we leave the new information referenced to the wrong source. It's the same with the birthtime information. On a broader point, most books do not get microscopic about date styles and exact birthtimes; my bigger reference here is the silent one: all the books that do not bother the reader with these things at all. In our much shorter article, it is all the more important that we don't overdo detail, which can break the rhythm of the prose. It is the same not only with with birthtimes and styles of dating, but with titles, ancestries, styles of address, etc. Some editors are determined that Wikipedia articles should contain ever more detailed information on such things, but to what end? qp10qp (talk) 23:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I do see your point, and you are correct about the 23 April birthdate. That was her actual rectified birthdate but as she was born when the Julian calendar was still firmly in use, her contemporary recorded birthdate was 13 April, so the article must state this, otherwise readers will become confused. Her exact birthtime would suffice for a 500 page biography but I can see how too much information becomes rather unwieldy for an encyclopedia article. Sorry if I intruded on the article, I just felt that Catherine was one of history's more important personages and impulsively added her birthtime. Thank you for your patience and explanation.jeanne (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 * It's not that you intruded, because we are all writing this encyclopedia. But in a fully referenced article, new information needs referencing to scholarly sources and tying in with existing information and references. I don't agree about the need to explain date style discrepancies, since the sources used do not bother to do that but simply give the reconstituted date. qp10qp (talk) 14:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Are you sure? It seems to be historically much more normal to give actual dates as known at the time! --PL (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

British dating should be used
Since Catherine de Medici was European, I feel that the British system of dating should be employed in the article rather than the American. Does anyone agree with me ?--jeanne (talk) 06:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrong illustration
The so-called "Portrait of Catherine de Medici as a child, by an unknown artist" is not Catherine de Médicis (by the way, the dress and hair style are absolutely not the ones of Catherine's youth). It's a well known portrait of her daughter-in-law, Marie Stuart, Queen of Scots, duh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.226.245.146 (talk) 19:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

 * You're quite right. I don't know why someone added it. I'll remove it.qp10qp (talk) 22:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong page # in footnote(s)
Footnote # 26 claims that information regarding the doctor Jean Fernel and his advice can be found on page 68 of the Frieda book. This is incorrect. I have been able to access page 68 through googlebooks, and that page says nothing about doctor Fernel.

It is more likely that the information may appear on page 58, but I cannot see that page to confirm. A similar problem probably exists with footenote # 25, which cites page 67 of the same book. Ed8r (talk) 19:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

 * No, these page numbers are correct (I made the citations myself and have just checked them). I expect you are either looking at another edition with different pagination, or that the page numbers on Google Books are slightly out, as sometimes happens. qp10qp (talk) 01:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

 * But part of my point is that this information does not appear on the page with that number (not a google page, but the number "printed" as part of the page itself). Page 68 of the book shown by googlebooks is about Francis' death. Ed8r (talk) 23:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

 * OK, well in that case it must be a different edition. I promise you that the information I cited is on the pages given. I have a copy of the book. qp10qp (talk) 02:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)Ed8r (talk) 15:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, thanks for confirming that.Ed8r (talk) 15:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

What is it for?
What is the " ' " in " Catherine de' Medici"? There is no such thing in French (which is my native language). 132.204.220.18 (talk) 23:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC) Vincent
 * It's Italian. Brutannica (talk) 01:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohhh! Thx. 132.204.220.18 (talk) 21:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Catherine was a commoner?!
According to the article:

"...when in early 1531 Francis I of France proposed his second son, Henry, Duke of Orléans. Clement jumped at the offer. Henry was a prize catch for Catherine, who despite her wealth was a commoner."

Her father was a duke and her mother was a countess. How could she be a commoner?!

Top.Squark (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that it is her parentage that made her noble. I think she belonged to real nobility after succeeding to the County of Auvergne. Users who significantly contributed to this article should be able to answer your question. Surtsicna (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Isn't such parentage sufficient to make one noble? Top.Squark (talk) 19:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Not always. For example, in the UK, commoners are all people who are neither sovereign nor peers. So, the children of the King (Queen) of the United Kingdom are born commoners, except for the eldest son who is born Duke of Cornwall. Queen Elizabeth II's youngest son was a commoner until 1999, when he was given the title of Earl of Wessex. Elizabeth herself was a commoner until she became sovereign, because she held no title in her own right. Her daughter Anne is still technically a commoner. If children of a king can be commoners, then I understand that children of a duke can be commoners as well. Surtsicna (talk) 10:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The form in the UK isn't the same as the one on the continent and the British monarchs' children are Princes and Princesses so they are not commoners. On continental Europe almost any families that bears a title for many generation are nobility; some noblity become so powerful and influencial through marriage that they become royalty like the Ernestine Saxon dukes and princes of Anhalt.  Catherine's father was a duke but her paternal ancestors beyond that are titleless bankers and statemen, so she wouldn't have the long royal and noble lineage of other noblewomen. Her mother was of noble roots but her father wasn't.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:04, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, in fact Mary, Queen of Scots often sneered at Catherine's commoner status, referring to her as a banker's daughter.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy, the titles of prince and princess of the United Kingdom are not titles of peerage. Those titles are courtesy titles. The eldest son is the only child of a British monarch who is not born a commoner because he is born as Duke of Cornwall. All the others are commoners. Even the queen consort is a commoner, unless she holds a peerage title in her own right (e.g. Anne Boleyn). Surtsicna (talk) 09:38, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You're referring to the British system of titles and nobility. It doesn't make sense when you put in the prospective of Catherine who was from Italy.  I don't really know how Italian titles work but they were mostly granted by either the HR emperor or the Pope and hereditary there after either in male or female lines.  Any British can recieved a peerage title from the monarch; almost everyone of the illegitimate sons of Charles I had peerage titles so they were royals not commoners.  Yet they would not have been illegiable to marry any courtesy title princess and archduchess of their days because they were bastard sons.  --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 18:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There is more than one meaning of the word "commoner." There is a technical one, as in "eligible to serve in the House of Commons before 1999," but there's also another, more common everyday meaning by which Queens consort and royal princes are not considered commoners. john k (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The sentence discussed here seems to use the technical meaning of the word "commoner". Surtsicna (talk) 14:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled as to why a sentence about an Italian aristocrat who became queen of France would use a technical English definition of "commoner". john k (talk) 05:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously the meaning "one who is neither duke/count/baron nor sovereign is a commoner", whether only British or not, is the one used in the sentence: "Henry was a prize catch for Catherine, who despite her wealth was a commoner." I don't know how else to explain why a legitimate daughter of a duke and a countess was a commoner. According to the "more common everyday meaning", Catherine was not a commoner. Am I missing something? Surtsicna (talk) 08:04, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The sentence which describes Catherine as a commoner is sourced to a good ref, therefore it is being used correctly in the article and should stay.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:49, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That hardly makes much sense, in that in that case, most queens of France were "commoners," including Archduchesses of Austria and so forth. At any rate, obviously the sense in which Catherine was a commoner is that the Medici, despite any recently acquired noble titles, were a nouveau riche family, having begun their rise in the wool trade and then made most of their money in banking, rather than one coming from the old territorial nobility (as the Este, for instance, had), or even the old money urban patriciate.  It has nothing in particular to do with English definitions of nobility.  john k (talk) 12:33, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Anne Boleyn was a commoner despite her father's elevation to the peerage. Catherine was not considered royal by any of her contemporaries.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly not royal, but arguably noble or aristocratic, which are often used as antonyms for "commoner." john k (talk) 01:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the article should just describe her as a non-royal rather than use the word commoner. It could instead read: "Despite her wealth, Catherine was not royal". That would be accurate as well as non-polemic. Comments?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:25, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But arguably she was a commoner. Her family, as I said before, was not from the old medieval territorial nobility, nor even from the old late medieval urban patriciate.  The Medici arose out of the guilds, and made their money in banking.  Lorenzo's title as duke of Urbino was totally dubious, as well, and was not actually hereditary, since the Della Rovere returned after his death.  She was arguably noble or aristocratic, but only arguably so.  I'm not sure about the best solution, but I think "commoner" is probably closer to being right than merely "non-royal".  Perhaps we should describe the Medici as "nouveau riche" instead. john k (talk) 17:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "...Medici - as their name suggested - having originally been doctors or apothecaries, descendants of a charcoal burner who had moved into Florence from the Mugello." -- The House of Medici, Hibbert, p30. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * We can all agree that she was noble on her maternal side; however, the Medicis were certainly not of the nobility as they began as tradesmen.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a paragrapher earlier in the article, explaining Catherine's family background in short. Hopefully, this would allow the reader to understand her categorization as a "commoner" better.Top.Squark (talk) 11:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the reference to her as a commoner struck this reader as extremely confusing. She was a noblewoman and our common understanding (sorry) of commoner is nonaristocratic, at least in the US, where we have no actual royalty or aristocracy, only people with money. Using this term seems to do little to educate the reader without far better clarification. No offense meant, but what does it add? Actio (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Antoine de Bourbon's right to regency
According to the article

"When Catherine had realized Francis was going to die, she made a pact with Antoine de Bourbon by which he would renounce his right to the regency of the future king, Charles IX, in return for the release of his brother Condé."

Whence did he get this right in the first place?

Top.Squark (talk) 19:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 * As first prince of the blood. Should probably say "claim to the regency" rather than "right". john k (talk) 12:38, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

France assisting England against Spain?
According to the article

"The monarchy had lost control of the country, and was in no position to assist England in the face of the coming Spanish attack."

Why should it have assisted England? Was it bound to by some treaty?

Top.Squark (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC).

 * No treaty, but Spanish control of England would have been an awful result for France. john k (talk) 12:38, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It would have been the end of France as a nation and kingdom.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:41, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Birthdate
As Catherine died seven years after the Gregorian Calendar came into use, which was her actual birthdate? Was it 13 April by the old Julian Calendar or rectified to the new Gregorian Calendar making 3 April her contemporary date of birth?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Where did I say she was ugly?
I have been editing at Wikipedia long enough to know that ugly is a peacock word, just as not destined to be a beauty is a peacock phrase. Have it your way then; after all, peacocks are lovely birds.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not short, I'm just "decidedly lacking in height". It was a long-winded synonym for "ugly" that lacked the pithiness of the original. Neither was peacocky though - if you're starting to think that all adjectives are peacockry then you've been editing for too long. Yomangani talk 18:31, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I've probably been living too long. As I said before, go ahead and keep it the way it is. I don't have a problem with the phrase.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This is too funny... -- Jack1755 (talk) 19:05, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

 * "Not destined to be a beauty" kills several birds with one stone, including peacocks. qp10qp (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not destined to be a beauty, decidedly lacking in beauty, whatever; just as long as she's not described as a 16th century Sharon Stone-(Oh, Happy Birthday, Sharon!).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:54, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

New section on the culinary legend.
Please note that I have added a section regarding the legend that Catherine de' Medici spread a long grocery list of items as well as the forks to eat them with to this very excellent article - because, although it may seem odd to take up space REFUTING falsehoods, it seems very important to do so on Wikipedia.

Although this is my first attempt at a Wikipedia entry, I do so as a longstanding contributor to the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, which in collaboration with the British Library, has instigated an effort to get scholars adding to the food-related content, particularly as regards women.

Catherine's culinary legend is a controversial issue, ostensibly because it's been repeated so many times that people believe it to be gospel truth. The reasons why this should happen are a subject that I will eventually dwell on in book length form but have developed in articles that include:

"Catherine de'Medici's Fork," in The Proceedings to the 2005 Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery: Food and Authenticity (Totnes, Devon, 2006).

"The Sexual Politics of Cutlery", in Feeding Desire: Design and the Tools of the Table, 1500--2005, catalog to the exhibition held at the Smithsonian /Cooper-Hewitt National Design Museum, held May 6--Oct 29, 2006 and published by Assouline in 2006.

The intent of this added section is to clarify more recent research on the subject, rather than to "out" those who continue to misguidedly believe in it. Therefore, I have refrained from citing references about those who continue to reprise it. There are many, stretched across many places. However, to justify this claim please refer to my review (titled "Myths of taste) of Sandra M. Gilbert's The Culinary Imagination in the Times Literary Supplement of 19 and 26 December 2014, p. 14.

I kindly invite any queries on this addition.

I also would love to add to the "patron of the arts" section as well as the source list with a few of the things that Catherine most definitely did do and own. She absolutely owned forks, as shown by the published inventory of the objects left in her Parisian residence. She also owned a first edition of Scappi's Opera of 1570, which I've held in my hands in its sumptuous crimson velvet cover embroidered with her coat-of-arms. This copy, in fact, provided the Scappi illustrations that appear in my first book, Apples of Gold in Settings of Silver: Stories of Dinner as a Work of Art (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2002).

Although alluded to, and referenced re: Yate's still important book, The Valois Tapestries, the "magnificences" orchestrated by Catherine constitute a significant contribution to the arts of entertaining. Sir Roy Strong's work on this subject has hugely enriched our understanding of these events and inspired much new research in its stead.

If I "pass muster" I would like to gently embellish the current "patron of the arts" article to reflect these areas of research.

Do, however, please send along any comments or concerns -- Carolin C. Young CarolinCYoung (talk) 23:50, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, Carolin. I believe this was a useful section to add (I said this already when it was in your sandbox). It is negative rather than positive, but widespread mistaken opinions do have to be discussed, and shown with references to be mistaken, as you are doing. If you have also further material to add on Catherine as a patron of the arts, I think you should go ahead when you're ready. Andrew Dalby 09:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Art

 * The Saint Bartholemew's Day Massacre (after 1576) by François Dubois
 * One Morning Outside the Gates of the Louvre (1880) by Édouard Debat-Ponsan

Films

 * Intolerance (1916), Josephine Crowell portrays de' Medici
 * Pearls of the Crown (1937), Marguerite Moreno portrays de' Medici
 * La Reine Margot (1954), Françoise Rosay portrays de' Medici
 * Diane (1956), Marisa Pavan portrays de' Medici
 * La Reine Margot (1961), television film; Alice Sapritch portrays de' Medici
 * Hardi Pardaillan! (1964), Isa Miranda portrays de' Medici
 * Catherine de Médicis : Le Tocsin de la révolution (1989), television film; Alice Sapritch portrays de' Medici
 * La Reine Margot (1994), Virna Lisi portrays de' Medici
 * Nostradamus (1994), Amanda Plummer portrays de' Medici
 * Saint-Germain ou la Négociation  (2003), television film; Marie-Christine Barrault portrays de' Medici
 * The Princess of Montpensier (2010), Evelina Meghnagi portrays de' Medici

Gaming

 * Catherine de' Medici leads the French civilization in the 2016 4X video game Civilization VI developed by Firaxis Games.

Television episodes and series

 * The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve (1966), Doctor Who episode; Joan Young portrays de' Medici
 * La Dame de Monsoreau (1971), mini-series; Maria Meriko portrays de' Medici
 * Elizabeth R (1971), mini-series; Margaretta Scott portrays de' Medici
 * Le Chevalier de Pardaillan (1988), series; Dominique Blanchar portrays de' Medici
 * Reign (2013), series; Megan Follows portrays de' Medici

Featured article issue
I was reading through and noticed a portion of the article had fully typed citation numbers in the text. I removed the [1] and [2] and marked that portion with citation needed templates as some of it was marked as quotes. I'm not familiar enough with this subject to tackle the issue. Lizabetha (talk) 18:41, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Catherine de' Medici. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160305043658/http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2010/06/history%E2%80%99s-black-widow-the-legend-of-catherine-de-medici.html to http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2010/06/history%E2%80%99s-black-widow-the-legend-of-catherine-de-medici.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 05:51, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Removal of citations to Frieda's book
It seems that all of the citations to Leonie Frieda's biography were removed with this edit on 23 January 2020 by User:Kansas Bear with the edit summary: "removed Leonie Frieda, former model not an historian". When the article was accepted as a featured article in 2008, I found 73 search hits with "Frieda". Before this particular edit there were still 73 hits, but after the edit there were none. Unfortunately, the removal of so many citations, while well-intentioned, has left a lot of unsourced information and even quotes without citations. Frieda's book was widely reviewed, and many reviewers commented that it was well researched, although it is true, she is not an academic historian. As it is now, it is difficult to determine what came from her book and what did not. Possibly the citations to Frieda's book should be restored, so the information can be challenged and checked on a case by case basis. Perhaps citations to better sources can be found, and the information will not have to be removed. An alternative might be to remove all of the information based on her book along with the citations, but this might be very disruptive to the continuity of the article. Just removing the citations alone doesn't seem satisfactory to me. --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

 * cough*STALKING*cough*. After their snide remark on another article followed by an attempt to make it personal(ie. what I should go do with myself), clearly this individual has now decided to make this personal by stalking my edits. Amazing someone can use this as a tool to personalize their animosity. --Kansas Bear (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not stalking you. I edited this article in 2017, long before you removed Frieda's book as a reference, but it is true I did not notice you had removed over 70 citations from this article until after you removed her book as a reference from Diane de France, which I was working on at the time. Your personal attacks on me do not address the legitimate issue which I raise here. You see my comments as harrassment, but perhaps that is because I do not agree with your edit. You state her book is unreliable because she is a former model, but present no evidence that the book itself is actually unreliable, i.e., has numerous errors of fact or makes false claims. Can you cite a reliable source that claims that? I've seen several reviews that were positive and praised the book for being well researched. I have not located one that says it is poorly researched. The book has an excellent index, several pages of notes, and an extensive bibliography, which includes archival sources and in which she also cites the biography by Knecht, which is the other most commonly cited source here. (I count about 70 mentions of it here). I searched academic journals in JSTOR with "leonie frieda" OR "frieda leonie" and got seven hits. I had access to three of these articles, all of which used her book as a source of factual information. One of these was in Italian, another in German. This shows she is an internationally recognized historian. -Robert.Allen (talk) 21:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

To an observer this does feel unnecessarily personal, both about the editors and about the author. A person can have two careers. Reviews in academic periodicals should demonstrate whether this author's books are useful to historians or not, so let's see what those reviews say. If it can be shown from the reviews that the books are solidly based in research, then there's no need to remove references to them systematically. If it can't be shown that the books are solidly based in research, then it would be appropriate to replace them with better references.

Many of the edited footnotes in the diff provided by Robert.Allen are cases where a reference to Frieda was accompanied by a reference to another secondary source. That would be OK, once it's agreed that Frieda is less reliable than other sources. Some of them, however, were references to Frieda alone, and relate to a precise quotation from a primary source. Here's one example:
 * [before] when Catherine was born, her parents were "as pleased as if it had been a boy".
 * [after]when Catherine was born, her parents were "as pleased as if it had been a boy".

Here's another, in which the translation in the the text was accompanied by a quotation of the original French in the footnote:
 * [before] King Francis lamented, "The girl has come to me stark naked."
 * [after]King Francis lamented, "The girl has come to me stark naked."

It seems to me that those are bad cases. We had telling quotations, important not just for Catherine de' Medici but also for understanding contemporary attitudes to sexuality, with some clue to the primary source and with a citation of a secondary source. Now we have quotations without any source at all, so the next reader ought to add a "Citation needed" template. Well, even if Frieda is unreliable, when I come across a "Better source needed" template and start looking for a differrent source to support those quotations I could at least have begun with Frieda. Now, with the footnote replaced by a "Citation needed" template, I can't. Andrew Dalby 14:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In the second of those cases, it looks to me as if Frieda might even be the primary source for this form of the quotation, which, if really so, is a blot on her reputation as a historian. The form that is far more commonly seen is much blunter: "J'ai eu la fille toute nue". Google searching told me this, but I don't claim to know what the original form was, and I haven't discovered by Web searching what the primary source may have been. Andrew Dalby 15:05, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * She is not the primary source. Fieda's version of the quote was given in 1956 by Salmon (see here), who Frieda includes in her bibliography, although a later paper from 1963. Frieda does not provide a footnote. Knecht Catherine de' Medici 1998, p. 28 (paperback) gives the translation as: "The girl has been given to me stark naked." This is very similar to Frieda's translation. He does not provide the French but cites Cloulas 1979, p. 57. I don't have Cloulas' book, and I did not find a preview online. Perhaps this quote is based on a manuscript letter, which could be difficult to read, so there could be different versions of it floating around. Or Cloulas could have used Salmon. Google Books also found it in a 1939 English book here. Frieda does cite Cloulas' book in several notes. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:44, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I got a Kindle copy of Cloulas. He gives "J'ai eu la fille toute nue." He does not appear to have an index, notes, or bibliography, and does not cite a source. --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's annoying, isn't it? But thank you for making clear that Frieda did not invent this version. No blot, then. Andrew Dalby 19:43, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * seems to have gone away for a bit. I usually admire this user's work, but I don't think this edit was one of the best. I see you have put Frieda back in the bibliography. If no one else comments, for or against Frieda, we should eventually try to get those footnote references back in. Andrew Dalby 13:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I really appreciate your help and feedback. All the information is in the history for this article, but unfortunately because the edit was allowed to stand for so long, it will be a bit time-consuming to do the work of restoring the citations. I would hope that this issue was not the only reason Kansas Bear decided to go away. Hopefully, it is only temporary. For now, I plan to continue to look into the story of Diane de France and perhaps add to it and may do some more editing here to the parts of this article that are relevant to that story. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Concerns over new 'In Media' section
I am concerned this new added section 'in media' is unduly weighted, as is shown even on this talk page Catherine has been in a wide range of media, yet as the section currently stands, one would believe she had only appeared in this new tv show. Do you plan to balance this section more, with a wider portrait of her media appearances? Sovietblobfish (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Links to the occult section and a suggestion
The section as it stands throws views of Catherine de' Medici's (near) contemporaries and modern esotericists together in a confusing jumble and then lets modern scholars comment on that. It would be better to order it as follows: 1 describe contemporary opinion with necessary context from historians, 2 present scholar's views, and 3 describe the reception of her in esoteric literature and whatever is influenced by that. The section relies a lot on Gardner now, but she was also written about by Blavatsky and Eliphas Levi.

There are two other issues:
 * The mention of Catherine's instruction in astronomy and astrology could be scrapped. They don't have to suggest anything that her contemporaries regarded as particularly involved in the "occult" (as in "occult philosophy"), even less in hermetics or kabbalism, and certainly don't imply modern connotations of "occultism".
 * I've put in a reference for Bodin and verified that the passage contains a description of the "ritual", but he doesn't even seem mention Catherine on that page. Is she or Charles IX ever mentioned in the necromancer's "mass"? Or is it a case of expansion by uncritical later readers?

Any comments? 195.169.52.21 (talk) 12:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Issue
In the "issue" paragraph, it mentions a daughter named Jeanne. In the list and notes, this daughter becomes Joan. Which is correct? 184.67.135.194 (talk) 00:32, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

 * jeanne is the french spelling of joan,
 * i personally think we should spell names the original way on wikipedia, but i don't know how jeanne is referred to in the source materials in this case so shall refrain from participating in any discussion on the matter Sovietblobfish (talk) 16:18, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll assume it's an artefact from a strange translation, and make them all Jeanne. 184.67.135.194 (talk) 16:02, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Gerald Gardner
It is unclear to me why this article devotes so much time to bizarre fringe scholarship about various ways in which Catherine was 'involved in the occult'

It is even more unclear to me why Gerald Gardner, a 20th century Wiccan's opinion's on the queen are relevant to our article? He is not a contemporary of the queen, nor is he representative of historical scholarship? Sovietblobfish (talk) 17:04, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

French or Italian or French and Italian Noblewoman
There's been a lot of changes back and forth on the description of Medici lately. Rather than this devolving into an edit war, how about we establish how we want to refer to her:
 * Her father was a Medici (Italian), her mother was a La Tour d'Auvergne (French). She was raised in Italy but then ruled in France. So either she's both, or she's Italian because that's where she was brought up (+ inheritance in this time largely comes patrilinealy and much of the French aristocracy derided her Italianess) or she's French because that's where she spent her adult life.

I don't particularly care which is agreed on Sovietblobfish (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

But what about the SHOES?!
Speaking of the short 'not-destined-to-be-a-beauty'ness of the girl, her intelligent compensation of it by bringing multiple pairs of high heeled shoes to her marriage (at 14 to an older man with known gorgeous mistresses) is widely held to be the event that established high heels as a Thing in European fashion, following on the heels of the ridiculous pointed toes and the ridiculous flippers that the aristocracy amused/harrassed themselves with in the centuries prior.

It's all over the internet and several footwear related pages so I assume, if it's not in the article already, that's because someone has been removing it. The sourcing was just inadequate so far? or are there extremely firm reasons to doubt the popular account? Even if there are, this is Out There widely enough on a major enough topic that it's worth having a paragraph of well-sourced debunking anyway. — Llywelyn II   12:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the article history, it doesn't seem as though someone's removing it – it's just never been added. A google scholar search isn't really turning up anything about Catherine de' Medici which discusses her supposed popularisation of high heels, so I suspect it's simply not considered important to the biography of Catherine.  Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Catherine de' Medici


text:
Conservative force

In physics, a conservative force is a force with the property that the total work done by the force in moving a particle between two points is independent of the path taken. Equivalently, if a particle travels in a closed loop, the total work done (the sum of the force acting along the path multiplied by the displacement) by a conservative force is zero.

A conservative force depends only on the position of the object. If a force is conservative, it is possible to assign a numerical value for the potential at any point and conversely, when an object moves from one location to another, the force changes the potential energy of the object by an amount that does not depend on the path taken, contributing to the mechanical energy and the overall conservation of energy. If the force is not conservative, then defining a scalar potential is not possible, because taking different paths would lead to conflicting potential differences between the start and end points.

Gravitational force is an example of a conservative force, while frictional force is an example of a non-conservative force.

Other examples of conservative forces are: force in elastic spring, electrostatic force between two electric charges, and magnetic force between two magnetic poles. The last two forces are called central forces as they act along the line joining the centres of two charged/magnetized bodies. A central force is conservative if and only if it is spherically symmetric.

For conservative forces,

$$\mathbf{F_c} = - \frac{\textit{dU}}{d\mathbf{s}}

$$

where $$F_c

$$ is the conservative force, $$U

$$ is the potential energy, and $$s

$$ is the position.

Informal definition
Informally, a conservative force can be thought of as a force that conserves mechanical energy. Suppose a particle starts at point A, and there is a force F acting on it. Then the particle is moved around by other forces, and eventually ends up at A again. Though the particle may still be moving, at that instant when it passes point A again, it has traveled a closed path. If the net work done by F at this point is 0, then F passes the closed path test. Any force that passes the closed path test for all possible closed paths is classified as a conservative force.

The gravitational force, spring force, magnetic force (according to some definitions, see below) and electric force (at least in a time-independent magnetic field, see Faraday's law of induction for details) are examples of conservative forces, while friction and air drag are classical examples of non-conservative forces.

For non-conservative forces, the mechanical energy that is lost (not conserved) has to go somewhere else, by conservation of energy. Usually the energy is turned into heat, for example the heat generated by friction. In addition to heat, friction also often produces some sound energy. The water drag on a moving boat converts the boat's mechanical energy into not only heat and sound energy, but also wave energy at the edges of its wake. These and other energy losses are irreversible because of the second law of thermodynamics.

Path independence
A direct consequence of the closed path test is that the work done by a conservative force on a particle moving between any two points does not depend on the path taken by the particle.

This is illustrated in the figure to the right: The work done by the gravitational force on an object depends only on its change in height because the gravitational force is conservative. The work done by a conservative force is equal to the negative of change in potential energy during that process. For a proof, imagine two paths 1 and 2, both going from point A to point B. The variation of energy for the particle, taking path 1 from A to B and then path 2 backwards from B to A, is 0; thus, the work is the same in path 1 and 2, i.e., the work is independent of the path followed, as long as it goes from A to B.

For example, if a child slides down a frictionless slide, the work done by the gravitational force on the child from the start of the slide to the end is independent of the shape of the slide; it only depends on the vertical displacement of the child.

Mathematical description
A force field F, defined everywhere in space (or within a simply-connected volume of space), is called a conservative force or conservative vector field if it meets any of these three equivalent conditions:

 * 1) The curl of F is the zero vector: $$\mathbf{\nabla} \times \mathbf{F} = \mathbf{0}. $$ where in two dimensions this reduces to: $$ \frac{\partial F_y}{\partial x} - \frac{\partial F_x}{\partial y} = 0 $$
 * 2) There is zero net work (W) done by the force when moving a particle through a trajectory that starts and ends in the same place: $$W \equiv \oint_C \mathbf{F} \cdot \mathrm{d}\mathbf r = 0.$$
 * 3) The force can be written as the negative gradient of a potential, $$\Phi$$: $$\mathbf{F} = -\mathbf{\nabla} \Phi. $$

$$

The term conservative force comes from the fact that when a conservative force exists, it conserves mechanical energy. The most familiar conservative forces are gravity, the electric force (in a time-independent magnetic field, see Faraday's law), and spring force.

Many forces (particularly those that depend on velocity) are not force fields. In these cases, the above three conditions are not mathematically equivalent. For example, the magnetic force satisfies condition 2 (since the work done by a magnetic field on a charged particle is always zero), but does not satisfy condition 3, and condition 1 is not even defined (the force is not a vector field, so one cannot evaluate its curl). Accordingly, some authors classify the magnetic force as conservative, while others do not. The magnetic force is an unusual case; most velocity-dependent forces, such as friction, do not satisfy any of the three conditions, and therefore are unambiguously nonconservative.

Non-conservative force
Despite conservation of total energy, non-conservative forces can arise in classical physics due to neglected degrees of freedom or from time-dependent potentials. Many non-conservative forces may be perceived as macroscopic effects of small-scale conservative forces. For instance, friction may be treated without violating conservation of energy by considering the motion of individual molecules; however, that means every molecule's motion must be considered rather than handling it through statistical methods. For macroscopic systems the non-conservative approximation is far easier to deal with than millions of degrees of freedom.

Examples of non-conservative forces are friction and non-elastic material stress. Friction has the effect of transferring some of the energy from the large-scale motion of the bodies to small-scale movements in their interior, and therefore appear non-conservative on a large scale. General relativity is non-conservative, as seen in the anomalous precession of Mercury's orbit. However, general relativity does conserve a stress–energy–momentum pseudotensor.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Conservative force


text:
Coda

Coda or CODA may refer to:

Films

 * Movie coda, a post-credits scene
 * Coda (1987 film), an Australian horror film about a serial killer, made for television
 * Coda, a 2017 American experimental film from Nathaniel Dorsky's Arboretum Cycle
 * Coda (2019 film), a Canadian drama film starring Patrick Stewart, Katie Holmes, and Giancarlo Esposito
 * CODA (2021 film), an American drama film featuring a child of deaf adults

Music

 * Coda (music), a passage which brings a movement or piece to a conclusion through prolongation
 * Coda (Led Zeppelin album), 1982
 * Coda (SMP album), 2010
 * Coda, a 1983 album by Ryuichi Sakamoto
 * Coda (Australian band), world music band
 * Coda (Mexican band), a rock band from Mexico
 * "Coda", a song by God Is an Astronaut from the album The End of the Beginning
 * "Coda", a song by Riverside from the album Shrine of New Generation Slaves

Television

 * "Coda" (Star Trek: Voyager), a 1997 episode of Star Trek: Voyager
 * "Coda" (The Walking Dead), a 2014 episode of The Walking Dead
 * "Coda", a 2016 episode of Endeavour season 3
 * "Coda", a 2011 episode of Criminal Minds season 6

Other uses in arts, entertainment, and media

 * Coda (ballet), the final dance in a grand pas
 * Coda (comics), a group of female warriors in Wildstorm comics
 * Coda (magazine), a Canadian jazz magazine published from 1958 to 2009
 * Coda (novel), a 1994 novel by Thea Astley
 * Coda Media, a news website
 * CODA System, a role-playing game system

Computing and technology

 * Coda (file system), a network file system
 * Coda (web development software), a web development application
 * CODA Content Delivery Architecture
 * Coda.io, a cloud-based document editor
 * CEBAF On-line Data Acquisition, a system used at Jefferson Lab in the United States
 * Component detection algorithm, an algorithm in mass spectrometry

Organizations and enterprises

 * CODA (company), financial software specialist now owned by UNIT4
 * Calgary Olympic Development Association, the former name of the Canadian Winter Sport Institute, a non-profit organization
 * Co-Dependents Anonymous (CoDA), a twelve-step program
 * Coda Automotive, an electric motor vehicle company headquartered in Southern California, US
 * Coda (electric car), an all-electric car manufactured by Coda Automotive
 * Coordinadora de Organizaciones de Defensa Ambiental, a coalition of Spanish environmental groups
 * Content Overseas Distribution Association, a trade association for international distribution of Japanese content

Other uses

 * Syllabic coda, (linguistics) the final consonant(s) of a syllable
 * Child of deaf adult (or CODA), a hearing person who was raised by a deaf parent or guardian
 * CODA (mixed-use development), Midtown Atlanta, US
 * Coda (surname)
 * Coda alla vaccinara, an Italian stew using oxtail
 * Cognitive discourse analysis, a research method that examines natural language data to gain insights into patterns in thought

title: Coda


text:
Sauk people

The Sauk or Sac are a group of Native Americans of the Northeastern Woodlands, who lived primarily in the region of what is now Green Bay, Wisconsin, when first encountered by the French in 1667. Today they have three federally recognized tribes, often together with the Meskwaki (Fox), located in Iowa, Oklahoma, and Kansas.

Name
The Sauk or Sac called themselves Thâkîwaki, translating as "people coming forth [from the outlet]" or "[from the water]". Their autonym is written oθaakiiwaki in the current orthography. Ojibwe people called them Ozaagii(-wag). The latter name was transliterated into French and English by Eurpoean colonists.

Early history
The Sauk, an Algonquian languages people, are believed to have developed as a people along the St. Lawrence River, which is now northern New York. The precise time is unknown, but around the time of the year 1600, they were driven from the area of the St. Lawrence River. Some historians believe that the Sauk migrated to what is now eastern Michigan, where they settled around Saginaw Bay (Ojibwe: Zaagiinaad-wiikwed – "Of the Outlet Bay"). For many years, the Sauk are believed to have prospered in the fertile valley of Saginaw thereafter. They had been driven west by pressure from other tribes, especially the powerful Haudenosaunee, which sought control over hunting grounds in the area.

The neighboring Anishanabeg Ojibwe (Sauk name: Ochipwêwa) and Odawa peoples referred to them by the exonym Ozaagii(-wag), meaning "those at the outlet". French colonists transliterated that as Sac and the English as "Sauk". The Sauk/Sac called themselves the autonym of Othâkîwa, Thâkîwa, Thâkîwaki or Asaki-waki/Oθaakiiwaki people of the yellow earth [("people coming forth [from the outlet]," i.e., "from the water")], which is often interpreted to mean "yellow-earth people" or "the Yellow-Earths", due to the yellow-clay soils found around Saginaw Bay. This interpretation possibly derived from the Sauk words Athâwethiwa or ("yellow") and Neniwaki ("men, people"). This was later shortened to "Asaki-waki". In addition, the Fox (Meskwaki) were generally known among neighboring tribes as the "people of the red earth" - the Sauk and Fox also used this term: Êshkwîha or Meshkwahkîha ("people of the red earth").

Some Ojibwe oral histories also place the Sauk in the Saginaw Valley some time before the arrival of Europeans. Sauk traditions state that the tribe occupied the vicinity of Saginaw river. (In this tradition, the name 'Saginaw' comes from the Ojibwe "O-Sauk-e-non," meaning "land of the Sauks" or "where the Sauks were.") Approximately from the years 1638 to 1640, it is believed that a fierce battle ensued, nearly annihilating the entire Sauk Tribe. According to the legend, the Ojibwe inhabited the lands north of the Saginaw Bay, and the harsher northern climate caused more difficulty in prosperity compared to that of the Sauk occupying the area of Saginaw Valley. The Ojibwe allied with the Ottawa, who resided south of the Sauk, and sprung a series of attacks on the Sauk, which practically decimated their people. One such attack, the Battle of Skull Island, occurred on a peninsula in the Saginaw River, which then was called Skull Island. (Its name came from the many skulls and bones supposedly found in mounds on that island over the years.) In this battle, it is said that the Sauk had used their boats to cross part of the river, escape to the island, and were temporarily free from their attackers. But when morning came, ice had solidified the river enough for the Ojibwe to cross. They killed every member of the Sauk tribe who had fled to that island besides twelve women whom they later sent west of the Mississippi River.

But later Europeans may have mistakenly recorded the Sauk as once dwelling at this location near Lake Huron. There is little archaeological evidence that the Sauk lived in the Saginaw area. In the early 17th century, when natives told French explorer Samuel de Champlain that the Sauk nation was located on the west shore of Lake Michigan, Champlain mistakenly placed them on the western shore of Lake Huron. This mistake was copied on subsequent maps, and future references identified this as the place of the Sauk. Champlain never visited what is now Michigan.

Anishinaabe expansion and the Huron attempting to gain regional stability drove the Sac out of their territory. The Huron were armed with guns supplied by their French trading partners. The Sac moved south to territory in parts of what are now northern Illinois and Wisconsin. In the seventeenth century the Sauk also maintained close relations with the Potawatomi (Pehkînenîha or Shîshîpêhinenîha). This relation has been found by borrowings of Sauk vocabulary that appear in the Potawatomi language.

In a loose coalition of tribes – including Dakota (Ashâha), Ho-Chunk, Ojibwe, Odawa, Potawatomi, Kickapoo (Kîkâpôwa), Meskwaki (Fox), and Sauk, along with the Shawnee (Shâwanôwa), Cherokee (Shanahkîha), and Choctaw (Châkitâha) from the Southeast – they attacked the tribes of the Illinois Confederation ("Illinois/Inoca") (Mashkotêwa) and tried to invade their tribal areas. The "Illinois/Inoca" became their worst common enemies. The coalition warred for years until they destroyed the Illinois Confederation.

Later they moved out on the prairie (Mashkotêwi) along the Mississippi and adopted the semi-sedentary lifestyle of Plains Indians (Mashkotêwineniwa). In addition to hunting buffalo, they lived in villages, raised crops, and actively traded with other tribes. The Sauk and allied eastern tribes had to compete with tribes who already occupied this territory. Disputes and clashes arose with the Dakota, Pawnee (Pânîha) and, most of all, the powerful Osage (Washâsha).

18th century
The Sauk had good relations with the English (Thâkanâsha) through trading. At first, the Sauk had good relations with New France too, until their alliance with the Meskwaki (Fox) made them short-term enemies of the French (Mêmehtekôshîha, Wêmehtekôshîha).

A closely allied tribe, the Meskwaki (Fox), were noted for resisting French encroachment, having fought two wars against them in the early 18th century. After a devastating battle of September 9, 1730, in Illinois, in which hundreds of warriors were killed and many women and children taken captive by French allies, Fox refugees took shelter with the Sac. This made the Sauk subject to French attack in turn. The Sauk continued moving west to Iowa and Kansas. Keokuk and Black Hawk were two important leaders who arose among the Sauk. At first, Keokuk accepted the loss of land as inevitable in the face of the vast numbers of white soldiers and settlers coming west. He tried to preserve tribal land and his people, and to keep the peace.

19th century
Having failed to receive expected supplies from the Americans on credit, Black Hawk wanted to fight, saying his people were "forced into war by being deceived". Led by Black Hawk in 1832, the mainly Sac band resisted the continued loss of lands (in western Illinois, this time.) Their warfare with United States forces resulted in defeat at the hands of General Edmund P. Gaines in the Black Hawk War.

From 1832 to 1837, debt and poverty were tools used to coerce the Sauk and Meskwaki to relocate three times following successive cessions of territory. The population of the two tribes living in Iowa was halved in the twelve years from 1833 to 1845.

Oklahoma history
About this time, one group of Sac moved into Missouri, and later to Kansas and Nebraska. In 1869, after the Civil War, the United States forced the larger group of Sac to move into a reservation in Indian Territory (now the state of Oklahoma). They formed the federally recognized Sac and Fox Nation, which is misnamed and is primarily Sauk. The United States had been making treaties with the two tribes together since their residency in the Midwest. A number of Meskwaki returned to the Midwest from Oklahoma (or resisted leaving.) They joined the Meskwaki at the Meskwaki Settlement in Tama County, Iowa.

The land currently occupied by the Sauk is only a section of what used to be the Sac and Fox Reservation from 1867 to 1891. This reservation was established by the U.S. and spanned 480,000 acres. In 1887, however, the Dawes Act purposely broke collective tribal lands into small allotments designated for individual households. The remainder of land not allotted to the Sac and Fox was then sold to non-Native settlers in an attempt to gain Oklahoma statehood and the full assimilation of its Native American population.

By 1889, 519 of the tribe were located in Indian Territory, what is now central Oklahoma. On June 10, 1890, they ceded these Indian Territory lands to the federal government.

Treaties with U.S.
Many of the latter treaties listed have little to no information regarding their details, besides the date. The Sauk signed a total of 22 treaties from 1789 to 1891.

 * Treaty of Fort Harmar
 * Treaty of Greenville
 * Treaty of St. Louis (1804)
 * Treaty of Portage des Sioux
 * Treaty of St. Louis (1816)
 * Treaty of St. Louis (1822)
 * Treaty of Washington
 * First Treaty of Prairie du Chien
 * Fourth Treaty of Prairie du Chien
 * 1832 Treaty
 * September 27, 1836 Treaty
 * September 28, 1836 Treaty
 * September 28, 1836 Treaty
 * 1837 Treaty
 * 1837 Treaty
 * 1842 Treaty
 * 1854 Treaty (Missouri Sac and Fox)
 * 1859 Treaty
 * 1861 Treaty (Iowa Sac and Fox)
 * Feb 18th, 1867
 * June 10, 1872 "Act of Congress" (Missouri Sac and Fox)
 * Feb 13th, 1891 "Act of Congress"

Clan system
The Sauk and Fox peoples were divided into two moieties or "divisions", which in turn were subdivided into Patri-lineages and Clans as local subgroups (segments).

The moieties were known as the Kishko/Ki-sko-ha/Kîshkôha (male: Kîshkôha, female: Kîshkôhkwêha) ("the long-haired") and as the Oskush/Askasa/Shkasha (male: Shkasha/Oshkashîwiwa, female: Shkashîhkwêwa/Oshkashîhkwêwiwa) ("the brave"). The two moieties were each symbolized by two colors: The Askasa/Shkasha painted their faces and partly their bodies with charcoal in mahkatêwâwi (black) and the Ki-sko-ha/Kîshkôha painted their bodies with white clay in wâpeshkyâwi (white). This duality was also celebrated by the two moieties in Lacrosse, which was often played extremely brutally to toughen young warriors for combat, for recreation, as part of festivals, and used as preparation for imminent wars or raids.

This division has survived to the present day, but is now more related to the political system of the United States: the supporters of the Democratic Party are associated with the Kîshkôha/Kîshkôhkwêha, while the supporters of the Republican Party are associated with the Shkasha/Shkashîhkwêwa.

Originally, the Sauk had a patrilineal and exogamous clan system, in which descent and inheritance was traced through the father. Clans or Mîthonî distinguished and named on the basis of totem animals, which are: Mahkwithowa (Bear Clan), Amehkwithowa (Beaver Clan), Peshekethiwithowa (Deer Clan), Ketiwithowa / Mekethiwithowa (Eagle Clan), Nemêthithowa (Fish Clan), Wâkoshêhithowa (Fox Clan), Kehchikamîwithowa (Ocean/Sea/Great Lake Clan), Keshêhokimâwithowa (Peace Clan), Ahpenîthowa (Potato Clan), Akônithowa (Snow Clan), Nenemehkiwithowa (Thunder Clan), Manethenôkimâwithowa (Warrior Clan), and Mahwêwithowa (Wolf Clan).

Saukenuk or Saukietown (today: Black Hawk State Historic Site) near the mouth of the Rock River (Sinnissippi – "rocky waters") into the Mississippi (Mäse'sibowi – "great river"), the most important Sauk settlement in the 18th and 19th centuries with about 4,000 inhabitants, was divided into 12 districts, which were assigned to the respective clans.

The tribe was governed by a council of sacred clan chiefs, a war chief, the head of families, and the warriors. Chiefs were recognized in three categories: civil, war, and ceremonial. Only the civil chiefs were hereditary. The other two chiefs were recognized by bands after they demonstrated their ability or spiritual power.

This traditional manner of selecting historic clan chiefs and governance was replaced in the 19th century by the United States appointing leaders through their agents at the Sac and Fox Agency, or reservation in Indian Territory (now Oklahoma). In the 20th century, the tribe adopted a constitutional government patterned after the United States form. They elect their chiefs.

Federally recognized tribes
Today, the federally recognized Sac and Fox tribes include:
 * Sac and Fox Nation (, meaning: "People of the yellow earth"), headquartered in Stroud, Oklahoma;
 * Sac and Fox Tribe of the Mississippi in Iowa (, meaning: "People of the red earth"), headquartered in Tama, Iowa; and
 * Sac and Fox Nation of Missouri in Kansas and Nebraska, headquartered in Reserve, Kansas.

Geographical names
Lake Osakis in west-central Minnesota, the Sauk River, which flows from Lake Osakis, and the towns of Osakis, Sauk Centre, and Sauk Rapids all were named for association historically with a small party of Sac who made camp on the shores of Lake Osakis. They had been banished from their tribe for murder. According to Anishinaabe oral tradition, these five Sac were killed by local Dakota in the late 18th century.

Place names with "Sauk" references include:
 * Iowa: Sac City, Sac County, and Sac Township.
 * Illinois: Sauk Village; Sauk Valley: the cities of Dixon, Sterling, Rock Falls and the surrounding area; Sauk Trail, a winding road south of Chicago, said to follow an old Indian trail; Johnson-Sauk Trail State Recreation Area; and Black Hawk College [Moline and Kewanee, IL].
 * Michigan: The name of Saginaw is believed to mean "where the Sauk were" in Ojibwe; and the Saginaw Trail is said to follow an ancient Native American trail. US Route 12 in Michigan is said to follow the Sauk Native American trail.
 * Minnesota: City of Sauk Centre, Le Sauk and Little Sauk townships, Lake Osakis, Sauk River, Sauk Rapids.
 * Missouri: Sac Township, Sac River and Little Sac River of southwest Missouri
 * North Dakota: Sauk Prairie and Sauk Valley Township
 * Wisconsin: Prairie du Sac, Sauk City, Saukville, Sauk County and Ozaukee County

Notable people

 * Black Hawk
 * Checokalako
 * Keokuk
 * Do-Hum-Me
 * Quashquame
 * Jim Thorpe

title: Sauk people