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Talk:Grand Prix motorcycle racing

Requested move

 * Grand Prix motorcycle racing → ? —(Discuss)— This article is about the world championship. the FIM calls it Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix I think that's a good title. Grand Prix motorcycle racing is much more than the world championship, a lot of national series that have Grand Prix motorcycle racing classes (usually 125GP) — Chris Ssk talk 10:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Is there a reason why the article wasn't simply called MotoGP? Roguegeek (talk) 23:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 * MotoGP is only one of the 3 classes of the Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix. there is also 125cc and 250cc and the article is about all 3. Though the only info on the 125cc and 250cc classes is in the infobox. Chris Ssk  talk 01:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Are there good, reliable sources that state "Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix" is some kind of official name? Roguegeek (talk) 07:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I did some further investigating and this is what I found. The name of the championship is called MotoGP. MotoGP consists of three different grand prix catagories; MotoGP, 250, and 125. The way MotoGP officially breaks this down can be found directly on the official site. To me, that's about the best resource you can find out there on a very non-subjective subject. I would suggest changing the name of this article to MotoGP. Thoughts? Roguegeek (talk) 07:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I would like to point out that the categories are now MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto3. What makes this really annoying is that MotoGP is both a class name and the series name. This should be taken into account whenever (re)structuring articles, adding redirects, etc. Someone looking for Moto2 or Moto3 information won't be happy being redirected to a MotoGP series page that has all sorts of MotoGP class specific information with no links to the class they're looking for and where the season information points to MotoGP class seasons with the same problem from which there may or may not be links to the class they're looking for. Pages should be either class or series. Even if they're both, the smaller classes should be prominently displayed and not forgotten or tucked in there as an afterthought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.192.19.110 (talk) 11:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

 * The FIM, the governing body of motorcycle racing calls the championship Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix. I think the most reliable source is the championship's rule book (classes are listed in page 13 of the rule book (17 of the pdf)) . Also other press releases about GP (I can't get my search results to show in the link but if you select GP as Subject and search, all the press releases will have "FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix" as a subject).  Chris Ssk  talk 11:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Chris, I understand that the official FIM documentation says one thing, but universal usage among teams, riders, fans and the official site itself prominently go with "MotoGP". Absolutely no one searching for information about MotoGP is going to Google "Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix". I think this is a case where universal usage trumps an obscure reference, and anyone looking for info about 125 and 250 racing will know to look in MotoGP because those classes are subsets of the whole series, universally known as MotoGP. I realize the number of Google hits is not a final arbiter, but "RRWCGP" gets 727 hits to MotoGP's 13,900,000, about a 20,000-to-1 ratio. --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 15:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Personally, I don't think it should have been changed from Grand Prix motorcycle racing. Being a "generic" name, it encompassed the old racing series' with the new.  Season reviews used to be called 1993 Grand Prix motorcycle racing season.  You can't say 1993 MotoGP season because it wasn't called MotoGP back then.  Now we'll have to differentiate season article syntax depending on what year it was.  Not ideal in my opinion. ♫ ψadems ♫ (talk) 16:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Wadems, good point. Ultimately, I'd vote in order of preference to: 1) Change this article title to "MotoGP", and go back and change the relevant seasons (I'm pretty sure 2000 was when the use of "MotoGP" started by Dorna); 2) Change the title back to "Grand Prix motorcycle racing".

 * Chris, I like that you're going by official documentation, but Dorna's role as owner of commercial rights to the series might also give them a semi-official role in giving the series its public name. The prominent "MotoGP" logo in the article is testament to its recognition. --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 20:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not the one that made the move I put the request up and it went unopposed so someone else made the move. I didn't request a move to Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix, I only suggested it as a possible title. MotoGP only came to be in the 2000s before that the championship was more commonly known as WGP and because Grand Prix motorcycle racing is more than the world championship. I had the intention of creating a separate Grand Prix motorcycle racing article about the racing discipline. Like there is an article about Motorcycle speedway and another about the Speedway World Championship, Superbike racing and Superbike World Championship, Enduro and World Enduro Championship

 * Also note that typing MotoGP either in Wikipedia's search or Google, Yahoo!, etc. finds the MotoGP redirect and automatically links to this page so I don't think it makes the page harder to find. Chris Ssk talk 21:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * My experience with looking at the Google results was initially missing the Wikipedia link to the page because it had an unfamiliar name. Especially now that the new official site has been updated and just about ruined, the Wikipedia MotoGP pages are going to be that much more popular.--Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

My vote is to, at the very least, change it back to Grand Prix motorcycle racing. Looks like enough editors here think it's a decent move. Ultimately, I'd like to see it simply called MotoGP because that's the name everyone knows it as and that's the name people are going to search under when requesting this specific article. So, change it back? Roguegeek (talk) 22:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Seconded, change it back to Grand Prix motorcycle racing, no matter what the FIM calls it, especially in case sponsors are added, as in Bridgestone Presents The Champ Car World Series Powered By Ford.-- Matthead Discuß   23:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Since we can't move on our own, I just sent in the request to have it moved by an administrator. Roguegeek (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * What about renaming it to Motorcycle Grand Prix? Chris Ssk  talk 23:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

 * If we're going to go to the trouble to rename, I vote going with "MotoGP." It should have been done years ago, really.--Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 15:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The trouble(s) I have with "MotoGP" are (1) there could be confusion between the MotoGP series and the specific class which used to be the 500s until it was changed in 2003. (2) Even if that confusion is overcome, a reader could think it is only about the series since 2003, and not all the way back to the old racing from the 1940s/'50s. I would be less opposed if the article was split; MotoGP for the modern series, Grand Prix motorcycle racing for the historical stuff.
 * The page should be moved though. The current title is definitely not what most people know the name as (it gets less than 700 hits in Google, compared with 13,000 for "Grand Prix motorcycle racing" and 1.1m for "MotoGP"). We do not use the "official" name, we use the common name. Previous move request was a bad one for an admin to have moved, especially since I cannot find the old discussion. It should have been marked as incomplete/contested. Welly bump fandango (talk) 21:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Rename
Now that the can of worms is open, let's use this section to vote on: 1) Keeping the name Grand Prix motorcycle racing, or 2) Changing to MotoGP. Let's also give the voting a decent amount of time, and not do anything until a few weeks have passed.

Grand Prix motorcycle racing

 * I feel it should be Grand Prix motorcycle racing; it's more generic since these articles cover GP racing from 1949 and not just the MotoGP era. ♫ ψadems ♫ (talk) 15:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with your rationale for this and would be fine with this article title as well. Roguegeek (talk) 21:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

 * As Wadems says, the generic name is better. It may be MotoGP now, but was not always named as such and so an article encompassing the history of the sport should be named accordingly. Cpl Syx (talk) 20:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

MotoGP

 * I vote MotoGP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk • contribs) 18:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

 * MotoGP is the proper name if you ask me as well. Roguegeek (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

 * MotoGP is the official name for the sport. --Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix

 * I like Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix as that is the proper name of the championships. Chris Ssk  talk 13:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

 * This is all very useful information, but I'd like to help clarify the name issue with some verifiable facts. Having been involved in motorcycle racing since the early 1960's, both flat-track and road racing, I have fairly decent credentials on the subject.

First of all, the term MotoGP is specific to the Dorna-controlled Grand Prix motorcycle road-racing championships. The name was invented and copyrighted by Dorna. As others have mentioned, MotoGP does not, and can not, legally apply to any other motorcycle road-racing events, either current or historic.

The term Gran(d) Prix or GP, when applied to motorcycle racing, defines motorcycles specifically designed for road-racing, including production motorcycles that have been extensively modified for road-racing, far beyond what would be allowed in production class motorcycle road-racing. A road-racing motorcycle will therefore generally fall under one of two categories; ... Grand Prix classes, or Production classes.

For example, a Norton Manx, while mass-produced, was always considered to be a Grand Prix racer, even though some were later modified by owners to be street legal, since the original intent by the manufacturer was to produce a road-race only bike.

On the other hand, a Norton Commando, also mass-produced, but as a street-bike, could either race in a Production Class, with relatively minor, class-rule-allowed modification, or by being heavily modified with few restrictions, race as a GP bike in that class.

In a nutshell, while Production (non-GP) class road-racing rules attempt to keep the motorcycle close to as produced by the factory specifications, Gran Prix rules are much more open, basically restricting engine type and displacement, overall weight and size, and safety.

In summary, Gran Prix motorcycles covers any and all full-race motorcycle road racing over the years. MotoGP only covers the Gran Prix events sanctioned by Dorna. And road-racing motorcycles covers all of that, plus the non-GP Production classes. - Chuck Lantz 172.11.57.255 (talk) 06:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Tyre v tire
Now, usually I work out these sorts of arguments based on the location of the subject of the article (UK article, UK spelling etc). Should we have a vote on which spelling we should have, because at the moment the article has both and looks sloppy. Personally, being British I would go for tyre, but I'm not fussed. What we do need is consistency. Ged UK (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I usually like to let Google help us out in these situations to determine which is the more common/popular term.
 * Google search of MotoGP tire OR tires shows 494,000 results.
 * Google search of MotoGP tyre OR tyres shows 312,000 results.
 * Both are fine, but in this case I would go with "tire" for consistency sake. Thoughts? Roguegeek (talk) 19:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I would vote tire being AmeriCanadian but I think tyre looks cooler. ;-p ♫ ψadems ♫ (talk) 20:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * While I'm more comfortable looking at "tire", the MOS mentions that "In the early stages of writing an article, the variety chosen by the first major contributor to the article should be used, unless there is reason to change it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic," so I vote for tyre.--Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As per the guidelines, if either is acceptable it should be the case that the first major use is made the standard for the remainder of the article's lifetime, and so I believe it should be tyre. Cpl Syx (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Consistency seems to be something we all agree on. I'm going to make the initial change right now to "tire" for consistency sake, but we can make another change later based on the outcome of this discussion. Roguegeek (talk) 18:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Academically I prefer British English to US English, and so "tyre" please. --Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Since MotoGP is predominantly a European sport, I'd happy w tyre... and I'm American. When American road racers (am I showing my age?) graduate to the big time, they go to Europe. DEddy (talk) 15:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

125cc, 250cc or 125 cc, 250 cc
How should the GP classes be written? according to WP:MOS, values and unit symbols are spaced but these are not just that, they are also names of the classes, the subject did come up in the past but I dont think consensus was ever reached Chris Ssk  talk 22:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * It really doesn't matter to me. I only changed it due to WP:MOS, but I definitely see your side of it. You're claiming "250cc" to be a proper noun. I think if that's the case, it should be "250cc". Roguegeek (talk) 23:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I stand by my original comments: no space. Plus, using the trusty Google method, "500cc" gets 2.84m hits and "500 cc" gets 1.12m hits.  Not to mention when you search for "500 cc", the search actually asks you: "Did you mean: 500cc."  ♫ ψadems ♫ (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I vote no space.--Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 15:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm good with no spaces as well, but I want to clear up something for Wadems. Google method is good to identify popularity of a term. I'm saying it's good to make this change here because "250cc" is a proper noun as per the MotoGP organization. If it wasn't, there would be no doubt about what to do here as the policy and style guides state it should be shown as "250 cc". Roguegeek (talk) 18:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I was being facetious about Google. Not that I care what the MOS says either.  It looks better with no space, regardless.  Even if I was referring to volume, I'd still say 50cc because I'm a rebel, man! ;-p ♫ ψadems ♫ (talk) 18:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

 * No space please! Ged UK (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * No space is how it is defined by the governing body, as they are not just engine capacities but also the titles of the racing class. According to the MoS there should be a space, but these are in fact proper nouns as used by MotoGP, as Roguegeek said above. As such, no space is what should be used here. Cpl Syx (talk) 13:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Chronology
I added a selected chronology of milestones in the sport, but I hope that rider achievements are kept out of it, because those are so well covered already in individual rider pages, and they don't represent changes in the sport itself. --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 22:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if it was called 'Technological Chronology' that would help? Ged UK (talk) 07:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes maybe, but I think it'd be useful to include regulation changes and events like deaths also. --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 18:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, but what would be very good is if anyone can add some references to the items listed as well. Then if it starts looking too big for this page we will be able to move it to a page by itself without it being deleted.Mighty Antar (talk) 19:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I hope the list gets expanded by other contributors. I just wanted to get it rolling but not have it swamped by Agostini's/Doohan's/Rossi's/etc. records. --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 20:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What are opinions about adding future events to the chronology (eg: Michelin dropping out in '09). While there is official confirmation, would such items require the future motor sport tag? future motor sport Wouldn't this kind of thing be better off in the page for that future season, rather than the main article? --Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 21:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think the wording of the future tag is pretty clear in it's aim; it's about warning people that the article may change rapidly as an event progresses. There's no rapid changes, Michelin have dropped out, and they aren't suddenly going to come back in again. I've absolutely no problem with future events so long as they're sourced. --Ged UK (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How about Kawasaki dropping out?--Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, i think so; they're a major manufacturer after all. --Ged UK (talk) 13:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Oh another thing... It's also rather lame that "chronology" starts in 1973!  Motorcycle Grand Prix dates more or less as far back as Automobile Grand Prix - i.e. near enough the turn of the 19th to the 20th Century, and there are note worthy items aplenty prior to 1973.  How about when MV Agusta started racing or noting their first and last race and championship wins?  How about the first 2 stroke bike racing?  How about the first Japanese entrant company?  How about the last Isle of Man TT to be part of the World Championship?  Streamlined bikes?  Running starts?  I will try to dig up years for things, but if anyone else already happens to know... --Amedeo Felix (talk) 23:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The best would be to find good and complete sources, and write a separate "History of the world championship" article or something similar! Asendoh (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

 * ONLY if the "Chronology" section were then to be deleted. If that section were to stay then I still say it should cover the entire history and not start at some random pooint.--Amedeo Felix (talk) 09:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's easily done though, just needs a link-through to a History of Motorcycle Racing or whatever it's called. I think it's a great idea. I would volunteer to do it, but i have no books or references to start from, and a long to-do list as it is! --Ged UK (talk) 10:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite so. I may do it at some point if need be, but mainly I wated to raise the point in case someone reading this already has the necessary information to hand.--Amedeo Felix (talk) 11:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with AmedeoFelix. I'm also very disappointed that this article only includes the modern era of Grand Prix motorcycle racing, totally ignoring what was the Golden Age of the sport, when Norton, Gilera, MV Agusta and others made it the dominant motorsport in the world, eclipsing even four-wheeled racing in popularity. I hope someone with the time and knowledge will add to this topic. 67.101.39.124 (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC) Chuck Lantz: AFM 144, AMA 49Y & 48C
 * Hey, well, this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, you could have a go! -- Ged UK  17:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I miss references and sources to the chronology-section...--Mats33 (talk) 21:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Sponsors
User Abdul Qayyum Ahmad has recently added a list of MotoGP sponsors. Is this a section we really want? I think not, as it's just a list of companies and it's not a really information about the World Championship and its history. Asendoh (talk) 12:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, I don't think that is needed, its just a list of sponsors that doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than publicity of the sponsors involved. Chris Ssk  talk 15:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did wonder about this when i saw it appear. I can see the logic in having it there, but apart from the logistical difficulty of keeping it up to date, I'm not sure it adds anything. -- Ged UK  19:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I took it out. Asendoh (talk) 11:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Challenges for the designer section
The content in this section is very speculative and unlikely to ever be sourced adequately. Would removing it altogether harm the article much? I think it's worse to have weak information than none.--Rubber Nipple Salesman (talk) 01:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is littered with fact tags and does feel rather like a personal essay. I don't think any of it is particularly wrong, but like you said, it may well be difficult to source. I'd have no issue with it coming out. Ged  UK  09:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Power:weight ratio
Removed statement saying MotoGP had better power-to-weight ratio than F1. MotoGP bikes are about 330 lbs (excluding rider). Hp is about 220. With a 140 lb rider, hp/weight ratio is 330+140/220, or 2.1 lb per hp. By contrast an F1 car weighs 1,334 lb (including driver and fluids). Hp is about 800. Thus F1 hp/weight ratio is 1334/800 or 1.66 lb per hp. Joema (talk) 14:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Should we add a row to the spec table with p:w ratio? Also, I think a row for torque should be added, although the page is locked so I can't add it myself.

I believe the GP 500cc 2 strokes of the 1980s and 1990s had a power to weight ratio better than an F1 car. The new heavier 4 stroke MotoGP bikes are much slower and heavier than their 2 stroke predecessors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.139.218 (talk) 13:17, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Points scoring system in 1992
Almost all of the articles relating to motorcycle Grand Prix racing of the period, such as rider profiles and race reports, list the current points system of 25-20-16-13-11 (etc.) for 1992, and give that year as the date it began. The actual system in 1992 was 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1, and the current system began in 1993. There are a lot of articles that need tidying/fixing because of this, but I have started with the main points system article. Volunteers welcome? 91.107.65.171 (talk) 16:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's a fairly simple job with AWB. Unfortunately, as I've now dumped windows, I don't have AWB anymore. If no-one else is up for it, i'll try and get it done over the christmas break. Ged  UK  17:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems that the change requested above has not gone through - can anything be done in one action? 137.108.145.10 (talk) 15:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Manufacturers, riders & teams 2010
At this moment, with various races passed, is strange that the manufacturers, riders and teams who are present in 2010 weren't actualized in the right table on main page - in fact, 250 seems alive as wasn't changed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.91.67.17 (talk) 09:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Criticism
MotoGP is a shadow of itself without the 500cc 2 strokes. Those took "real" men to ride. Lawson, Rainey, Shenne, Doohan, Schwantz, Mamola, Haslam et. al. ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.192.107.142 (talk) 16:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC) I agree MotoGP is an utter joke compared to the 2 stroke 500cc of the 1980s. This front page of this rag is incorrect as to the reason why the 500cc 2 strokes were discontinued in favor of the slower and much heavier 4 strokes. I believe the reason given back then was the pollution emitted from the 2 strokes was what caused the manufacturers to switch to street legal four strokes in favor of their retail store line up and to boost sales. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.139.218 (talk) 12:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Kalex?
Kalex was missing from the list of Moto2 constructors. How is that? The Kalex bike won the Moto2 world championship in 2011. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.22.152.176 (talk) 06:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Factory vs Satellite Teams
Should there be a section on "factory" vs. "satellite" teams? (Mainly the difference between them) The-Bus (talk) 12:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Grand Prix motorcycle racing?
This name is quite odd. The article tells about world championship arranged by FIM. So, that should mean it is the only motorcycle racing series which have its races called "grand prix". Is that true? If not, better title would be for example FIM motorcycle world championship. 212.50.203.198 (talk) 18:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Lower quality class to C or start because

For example but not limited to:

- Incoherent - Incomplete - No references - Title is wrong to start with - No history - No past manufacturers list - No past world champion list

Absolute piece of s**t article and a disgrace for wikipedia. And no i'm not going to correct it, because I don't have the time for your silly registration system. I'm willing to correct this article, but not making 10 edits on subjects I'm not interested in at the moment. I have a company to run and bills to pay. Also the wikipedia community and people waiting to delete everything they don't find relevant any more, doesn't motivate me to register or even donate any more. You cannot delete history, how irrelevant you might find it, a part from the practical reasons, I just feel that is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.177.116.58 (talk) 22:05, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

vlintino rossi is the peoples champion.Bearshark451 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

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Highest recorded speed (Dovizioso in Qatar 2016) quotes wrong resource
The reference is to race speeds, which does not state the claimed top speed during warm-up. Id change it myself but Im rather new to editing, I hope the active maintainers of this page will update the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A212:80:5E80:59DD:9D1E:F460:BF90 (talk) 18:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Event Format
"Event Format" section is outdated and needs to be changed to reflect Moto3, Moto2, and Premier Class. Checking for objections, or bringing it to the attention of a more knowledgable writer than I

2601:601:CB7F:B800:1589:3491:E840:EE85 (talk) 07:50, 5 August 2018 (UTC) 082018

Grid Boys and Girls
Certainly riding is the main objective/focus of this article. However, it seems remiss that there is no mention of the apparent controversy surrounding the grid boys and girls and more importantly female riders entering the sport. From this writer's perspective the umbrella wielding girls have always appeared to be respectable and, given the overall environment, tastefully/appropriately dressed. Everything aboveboard. Prohibition of them seems prudish and reactionary. Is the "controversy" due to general discrimination against women in certain countries where races are conducted? Providing longer shafts on the umbrellas, so that they rest on the track, seems sensible. If it's sexism that is the issue then the overarching question is certainly why are more girls not introduced to motorcycle riding at a young age? 'It is important to show we can compete in a man's world' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithf (talk • contribs) 23:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Champions
In 2001 Rossi won in 500 cc List of 500cc/MotoGP rider records Wispyrainunder (talk) 10:30, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you see why it is called "500cc/MotoGP"? It's because they're the same championship. The regulations just changed, so as the name, but it is still the premier class of motorcycle racing. Rossi's 500cc and MotoGP titles are considered as done in the same class. Engr. Smitty   Werben 11:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I mean that! Wispyrainunder (talk) 12:31, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

 * I mean, 7 in premier class + 1 in 250 + 1 in 125. Not as it was written before "and one in 500cc" that is included in those 7 titles. Wispyrainunder (talk) 12:36, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

New WikiProject Proposal Alert
This is a note to let editors know that a user has proposed "WikiProject MotoGP". You can visit the proposal and discussion here. (Proposer was not me, I am just a guy alerting editors to the proposal.) Elijahandskip (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Legality of machines
Perhaps an explanation might be added of why the machines used in these races are not street legal.Bill (talk) 22:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

 * A bit late in the day, but GP machines are race-only dedicated designs, have huge specific power outputs, require much maintenance and would wear out quickly. World Superbikes, World Supersport and similar national series are based on road machines, for one thing being silhouette class, meaning the race bikes have to comply to the dimensions and appearance of the base machine. Not road-legal, but much nearer.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Racing in more than one class at an event
Does anyone know when racing in more than one class at an event ceased? e.g. Freddie Spencer raced in both 250cc and 500cc class races in 1985 B. Fairbairn (talk) 07:46, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

 * AFAIK there is no formal restriction on racing in multiple events; the UK commentators have stated that when Spencer did it he was wrecked by the experience. With the doubling of horsepower since then and the requirements of the modern tyres and brakes (g forces) then it wouldn't be physically possible to operate at this much higher level without prohibitively draining their energy levels needed to compete in a subsequent event.
 * The general consensus is that nowadays only thin, lean machines will prevail (the humans, I mean ). They have personal trainers and nutritionists/chefs. Some are remarked upon to be cycling companions of Mark Cavendish and they perform at world-level standard. One tale is that Scott Redding cycled from one racetrack to another before competing at the latter. He was remarked upon as reducing the muscularity of his shoulders to get behind the upper fairing. Some also swim - I recall seeing Bradley Smith in a wet suit, triathlon-style. I've only just seen this as I've been watching what you've been adding for Jack Miller.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Flags in the Infobox
Why arent there flags next to rider/team name in the infobox? Whas there a decision to be removed? It seems motorsport world championships on the Template:Main_world_championships except motorcycle road racing championships (motogp, wsbk, wssp) have them and it would be nice to have them in these article too, for consistency if nothing else. Chris Ssk talk 17:44, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

 * You mean, you'd like to see more like this?, of course, as you might guess, I knew where to find it, and whom was responsible (has referred to the UK sub-nations). With flags, it pre-supposes that the average reader would recognise the (potentially endless) worldwide variations. Ratthapark Wilairot (🇹🇭)? Narain Karthikeyan (🇮🇳)? With what's been happening with Russian invasion, Illia Mykhalchyk's national flag (🇺🇦) is more likely to be recognised.
 * I did a post somewhere on this problem (of partisan editors prominently promoting their national idols and flags) and I added small comparison flags to show how many I knew (perhaps a dozen), and how similar others are (🇦🇺, ). I will not replicate it all, but Sylvain Guintoli when commentating recently on TV stated that one flag (the French, I think 🇫🇷) was misaligned and looked like Dutch 🇳🇱.
 * For the record, the Formula One car Brigade gave themselves local consensus to use infobox flags on F1 races and F1 racers (I vaguely recognise your username so you may be involved already know this). The said F1 Brigade recently bitterly complained that the RfC was old and with too-few participants. Writing this perhaps roughly from memory, but ended with one car-regular getting a formal warning at AN/I.
 * For the (non)recognition reasons stated above, I am not a supporter of showing flags as, without a caption they could be misleading/confusing, being decorative additions; with a caption, of course, they are redundant, again being decorative. As with the post above, I only just saw this. Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:16, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Liberty Media Acquire 86% of Dorna Sports, who Own MotoGP and World Superbikes
Liberty Media's Press Statement: https://www.libertymedia.com/investors/news-events/press-releases/detail/527/liberty-media-announces-agreement-to-acquire-commercial

MotoGP's Press Statement: https://www.motogp.com/en/news/2024/04/01/liberty-media-announces-acquisition-of-motogp/493938

WSBK's Press Statement: https://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2024/Liberty%20Media%20to%20acquire%20Dorna Wycombefan (talk) 11:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Grand Prix motorcycle racing


text:
Creator deity

A creator deity or creator god is a deity responsible for the creation of the Earth, world, and universe in human religion and mythology. In monotheism, the single God is often also the creator. A number of monolatristic traditions separate a secondary creator from a primary transcendent being, identified as a primary creator.

Atenism
Initiated by Pharaoh Akhenaten and Queen Nefertiti around 1330 BCE, during the New Kingdom period in ancient Egyptian history. They built an entirely new capital city (Akhetaten) for themselves and worshippers of their sole creator god in a wilderness. His father used to worship Aten alongside other gods of their polytheistic religion. Aten, for a long time before his father's time, was revered as a god among the many gods and goddesses in Egypt. Atenism was countermanded by later pharaoh Tutankhamun, as chronicled in the artifact, the Restoration Stela. Despite different views, Atenism is considered by some scholars to be one of the frontiers of monotheism in human history.

Judaism
The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth of both Judaism and Christianity. The narrative is made up of two stories, roughly equivalent to the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis. In the first, Elohim (the Hebrew generic word for God) creates the heavens and the Earth, the animals, and mankind in six days, then rests on, blesses and sanctifies the seventh (i.e. the Biblical Sabbath). In the second story, God, now referred to by the personal name Yahweh, creates Adam, the first man, from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden, where he is given dominion over the animals. Eve, the first woman, is created from Adam and as his companion.

It expounds themes parallel to those in Mesopotamian mythology, emphasizing the Israelite people's belief in one God. The first major comprehensive draft of the Pentateuch (the series of five books which begins with Genesis and ends with Deuteronomy) was composed in the late 7th or the 6th century BCE (the Jahwist source) and was later expanded by other authors (the Priestly source) into a work very similar to Genesis as known today. The two sources can be identified in the creation narrative: Priestly and Jahwistic. The combined narrative is a critique of the Mesopotamian theology of creation: Genesis affirms monotheism and denies polytheism. Robert Alter described the combined narrative as "compelling in its archetypal character, its adaptation of myth to monotheistic ends".

Christianity
The Abrahamic creation narrative is made up of two stories, roughly equivalent to the two first chapters of the Book of Genesis. The first account (1:1 through 2:3) employs a repetitious structure of divine fiat and fulfillment, then the statement "And there was evening and there was morning, the [xth] day," for each of the six days of creation. In each of the first three days there is an act of division: day one divides the darkness from light, day two the "waters above" from the "waters below", and day three the sea from the land. In each of the next three days these divisions are populated: day four populates the darkness and light with sun, moon, and stars; day five populates seas and skies with fish and fowl; and finally, land-based creatures and mankind populate the land.

The first (the Priestly story) was concerned with the cosmic plan of creation, while the second (the Yahwist story) focuses on man as cultivator of his environment and as a moral agent. The second account, in contrast to the regimented seven-day scheme of Genesis 1, uses a simple flowing narrative style that proceeds from God's forming the first man through the Garden of Eden to the creation of the first woman and the institution of marriage. In contrast to the omnipotent God of Genesis 1 creating a god-like humanity, the God of Genesis 2 can fail as well as succeed. The humanity he creates is not god-like, but is punished for acts which would lead to their becoming god-like (Genesis 3:1-24) and the order and method of creation itself differs. "Together, this combination of parallel character and contrasting profile point to the different origin of materials in Genesis 1:1 and Gen 2:4, however elegantly they have now been combined."

An early conflation of Greek philosophy with the narratives in the Hebrew Bible came from Philo of Alexandria (d. AD 50), writing in the context of Hellenistic Judaism. Philo equated the Hebrew creator-deity Yahweh with Aristotle's unmoved mover (First Cause) in an attempt to prove that the Jews had held monotheistic views even before the Greeks.

A similar theoretical proposition was demonstrated by Thomas Aquinas, who linked Aristotelian philosophy with the Christian faith, followed by the statement that God is the First Being, the First Mover, and is Pure Act.

The deuterocanonical 2 Maccabees has two relevant passages. At chapter 7, it narrows about the mother of a Jewish proto-martyr telling to her son: "I beseech thee, my son, look upon heaven and earth, and all that is in them: and consider that God made them out of nothing, and mankind also"; at chapter 1, it refers a solemn prayer hymned by Jonathan, Nehemiah and the Priest of Israel, while making sacrifices in honour of God: "O Lord, Lord God, Creator of all things, who art fearefull, and strong, and righteous, and mercifull, and the onely, and gracious king".

The Prologue to the Gospel of John begins with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Christianity affirms the creation by God since its early time in the Apostles' Creed ("I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.", 1st century AD), that is symmetrical to the Nicene Creed (4th century AD).

Nowadays, theologians debate whether the Bible itself teaches if this creation by God is a creation ex nihilo. Traditional interpreters argue on grammatical and syntactical grounds that this is the meaning of Genesis 1:1, which is commonly rendered: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." However, other interpreters understand creation ex nihilo as a 2nd-century theological development. According to this view, church fathers opposed notions appearing in pre-Christian creation myths and in Gnosticism—notions of creation by a demiurge out of a primordial state of matter (known in religious studies as chaos after the Greek term used by Hesiod in his Theogony). Jewish thinkers took up the idea,

which became important to Judaism.

Islam
According to Islam, the creator deity, God, known in Arabic as Allah, is the all-powerful and all-knowing Creator, Sustainer, Ordainer, and Judge of the universe. Creation is seen as an act of divine choice and mercy, one with a grand purpose: "And We did not create the heaven and earth and that between them in play." Rather, the purpose of humanity is to be tested: "Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;" Those who pass the test are rewarded with Paradise: "Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;"

According to the Islamic teachings, God exists above the heavens and the creation itself. The Quran mentions, "He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything." At the same time, God is unlike anything in creation: "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." and nobody can perceive God in totality: "Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted." God in Islam is not only majestic and sovereign, but also a personal God: "And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)." Allah commands the believers to constantly remember Him ("O you who have believed, remember Allah with much remembrance" ) and to invoke Him alone ("And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof—then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed." ).

Islam teaches that God as referenced in the Qur'an is the only god and the same God worshipped by members of other Abrahamic religions such as Christianity and Judaism.

Sikhism
One of the biggest responsibilities in the faith of Sikhism is to worship God as "The Creator", termed Waheguru, who is shapeless, timeless, and sightless, i.e., Nirankar, Akal, and Alakh Niranjan. The religion only takes after the belief in "One God for All" or Ik Onkar.

Baháʼí Faith
In the Baháʼí Faith God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence. He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty". Although transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.

Mandaeism
In Mandaeism, Hayyi Rabbi (lit=The Great Life), or 'The Great Living God', is the supreme God from which all things emanate. He is also known as 'The First Life', since during the creation of the material world, Yushamin emanated from Hayyi Rabbi as the "Second Life." "The principles of the Mandaean doctrine: the belief of the only one great God, Hayyi Rabbi, to whom all absolute properties belong; He created all the worlds, formed the soul through his power, and placed it by means of angels into the human body. So He created Adam and Eve, the first man and woman." Mandaeans recognize God to be the eternal, creator of all, the one and only in domination who has no partner.

Monolatrism
Monolatristic traditions would separate a secondary creator from the primary transcendent being, identified as a primary creator. According to Gaudiya Vaishnavas, Brahma is the secondary creator and not the supreme. Vishnu is the primary creator. According to Vaishnava belief Vishnu creates the basic universal shell and provides all the raw materials and also places the living entities within the material world, fulfilling their own independent will. Brahma works with the materials provided by Vishnu to actually create what are believed to be planets in Puranic terminology, and he supervises the population of them.

Monism
Monism is the philosophy that asserts oneness as its fundamental premise, and it contradicts the dualism-based theistic premise that there is a creator God that is eternal and separate from the rest of existence. There are two types of monism, namely spiritual monism which holds that all spiritual reality is one, and material monism which holds that everything including all material reality is one and the same thing.

Buddhism
Buddhism denies a creator deity and posits that mundane deities such as Mahabrahma are misperceived to be a creator.

Jainism
Jainism does not support belief in a creator deity. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents—soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion have always existed (a static universe similar to that of Epicureanism and steady state cosmological model). All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws. It is not possible to create matter out of nothing and hence the sum total of matter in the universe remains the same (similar to law of conservation of mass). Similarly, the soul of each living being is unique and uncreated and has existed since beginningless time.

The Jain theory of causation holds that a cause and its effect are always identical in nature and therefore a conscious and immaterial entity like God cannot create a material entity like the universe. Furthermore, according to the Jain concept of divinity, any soul who destroys its karmas and desires achieves liberation. A soul who destroys all its passions and desires has no desire to interfere in the working of the universe. Moral rewards and sufferings are not the work of a divine being, but a result of an innate moral order in the cosmos; a self-regulating mechanism whereby the individual reaps the fruits of his own actions through the workings of the karmas.

Through the ages, Jain philosophers have adamantly rejected and opposed the concept of creator and omnipotent God and this has resulted in Jainism being labeled as nāstika darsana or atheist philosophy by the rival religious philosophies. The theme of non-creationism and absence of omnipotent God and divine grace runs strongly in all the philosophical dimensions of Jainism, including its cosmology, karma, moksa and its moral code of conduct. Jainism asserts a religious and virtuous life is possible without the idea of a creator god.

Polytheism
In polytheistic creation, the world often comes into being organically, e.g. sprouting from a primal seed, sexually, by miraculous birth (sometimes by parthenogenesis), by hieros gamos, violently, by the slaying of a primeval monster, or artificially, by a divine demiurge or "craftsman". Sometimes, a god is involved, wittingly or unwittingly, in bringing about creation. Examples include:
 * Sub-Saharan African contexts:
 * Mbombo of Bakuba mythology, who vomited out the world upon feeling a stomachache
 * Unkulunkulu in Zulu mythology
 * American contexts:
 * Nanabozho (Great Rabbit), Ojibwe deity, a shape-shifter and a cocreator of the world
 * Cōātlīcue in Aztec mythology
 * Chiminigagua (and/or Bague) in Muisca mythology
 * I'itoi in cosmology of the O'odham peoples
 * Viracocha in Inca mythology
 * A trickster deity in the form of a Raven in Inuit mythology
 * Near Eastern contexts:
 * Egyptian mythology
 * Atum in Ennead, whose semen becomes the primal component of the universe
 * Ptah creating the universe by the Word
 * Neith, who wove all of the universe and existence into being on her loom.
 * ’Ēl in Canaanite religion
 * Marduk killing Tiamat in the Babylonian Enûma Eliš
 * Asian contexts:
 * Atingkok Maru Sidaba in Manipuri mythology, the creator of the universe
 * Esege Malan in Mongolian mythology, king of the skies
 * Eskeri - in Tungusic mythology
 * Kamuy in Ainu mythology, who built the world on the back of a trout
 * Izanagi and Izanami-no-Mikoto in Japanese mythology, who churned the ocean with a spear, creating the islands of Japan
 * Pangu in Chinese mythology, he is the one who separated heaven and earth and became geographic features such as mountains and rivers
 * Thần Trụ Trời the god who created the world in Vietnamese mythology
 * European contexts:
 * The sons of Borr slaying the primeval giant Ymir in Norse mythology
 * Rod in Slavic mythology
 * Ipmil or Radien-Áhči (Radien Father) in Sámi mythology
 * Oceanic contexts:
 * Makemake, creator of humanity, the god of fertility and the chief god of the "Tangata manu" or "bird-man" cult of Rapa Nui mythology.
 * Ranginui, the Sky Father, and Papatūānuku, the Earth Mother in Māori mythology
 * Tjilbruke

Platonic demiurge
Plato, in his dialogue Timaeus, describes a creation myth involving a being called the demiurge (δημιουργός "craftsman"). Neoplatonism and Gnosticism continued and developed this concept. In Neoplatonism, the demiurge represents the second cause or dyad, after the monad. In Gnostic dualism, the demiurge is an imperfect spirit and possibly an evil being, transcended by divine Fullness (Pleroma). Unlike the Abrahamic God, Plato's demiurge is unable to create ex-nihilo.

Hinduism
Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, pandeism, monism, and atheism among others; and its concept of creator deity is complex and depends upon each individual and the tradition and philosophy followed. Hinduism is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (i.e., involving devotion to a single god while accepting the existence of others), but any such term is an overgeneralization.

The Nasadiya Sukta (Creation Hymn) of the Rigveda is one of the earliest texts which "demonstrates a sense of metaphysical speculation" about what created the universe, the concept of god(s) and The One, and whether even The One knows how the universe came into being. The Rig Veda praises various deities, none superior nor inferior, in a henotheistic manner. The hymns repeatedly refer to One Truth and Reality. The "One Truth" of Vedic literature, in modern era scholarship, has been interpreted as monotheism, monism, as well as a deified Hidden Principles behind the great happenings and processes of nature.

The post-Vedic texts of Hinduism offer multiple theories of cosmogony, many involving Brahma. These include Sarga (primary creation of universe) and Visarga (secondary creation), ideas related to the Indian thought that there are two levels of reality, one primary that is unchanging (metaphysical) and other secondary that is always changing (empirical), and that all observed reality of the latter is in an endless repeating cycle of existence, that cosmos and life we experience is continually created, evolved, dissolved and then re-created. The primary creator is extensively discussed in Vedic cosmogonies with Brahman or Purusha or Devi among the terms used for the primary creator, while the Vedic and post-Vedic texts name different gods and goddesses as secondary creators (often Brahma in post-Vedic texts), and in some cases a different god or goddess is the secondary creator at the start of each cosmic cycle (kalpa, aeon).

Brahma is a "secondary creator" as described in the Mahabharata and Puranas, and among the most studied and described. Born from a lotus emerging from the navel of Vishnu, Brahma creates all the forms in the universe, but not the primordial universe itself. In contrast, the Shiva-focused Puranas describe Brahma and Vishnu to have been created by Ardhanarishvara, that is half Shiva and half Parvati; or alternatively, Brahma was born from Rudra, or Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma creating each other cyclically in different aeons (kalpa). Thus in most Puranic texts, Brahma's creative activity depends on the presence and power of a higher god.

In other versions of creation, the creator deity is the one who is equivalent to the Brahman, the metaphysical reality in Hinduism. In Vaishnavism, Vishnu creates Brahma and orders him to order the rest of universe. In Shaivism, Shiva may be treated as the creator. In Shaktism, the Great Goddess creates the Trimurti.

Kongo religion
The Bakongo people traditionally believe in Nzambi Mpungu, the Creator God, whom the Portuguese compared to the Christian God during colonization. They also believe his female counterpart called Nzambici, the ancestors (bakulu) as well as guardian spirits, such as Lemba, the basimbi, bakisi and bakita. Oral tradition accounts that in the beginning, there was only a circular void (mbûngi) with no life. Nzambi Mpungu summoned a spark of fire (Kalûnga) that grew until it filled the mbûngi. When it grew too large, Kalûnga became a great force of energy and unleashed heated elements across space, forming the universe with the sun, stars, planets, etc. Because of this, Kalûnga is seen as the origin of life and a force of motion. The Bakongo believe that life requires constant change and perpetual motion. Nzambi Mpunga is also referred to as Kalûnga, the God of change. Similarities between the Bakongo belief of Kalûnga and the Big Bang Theory have been studied.

Nzambi is also said to have created two worlds. As Kalûnga filled mbûngi, it created an invisible line that divided the circle in half. The top half represents the physical world (Ku Nseke or nsi a bamôyo), while the bottom half represents the spiritual world of the ancestors (Ku Mpèmba). The Kalûnga line separates these two worlds, and all living things exists on one side or another. After creation, the line and the mbûngi circle became a river, carrying people between the worlds at birth and death. Then the process repeats and a person is reborn. A simbi (pl. bisimbi) is a water spirit that is believed to inhabit bodies of water and rocks, having the ability to guide bakulu, or the ancestors, along the Kalûnga line to the spiritual world after death. They are also present during the baptisms of African American Christians, according to Hoodoo tradition.

Chinese traditional cosmology
Pangu can be interpreted as another creator deity. In the beginning there was nothing in the universe except a formless chaos. However this chaos began to coalesce into a cosmic egg for eighteen thousand years. Within it, the perfectly opposed principles of yin and yang became balanced and Pangu emerged (or woke up) from the egg. Pangu is usually depicted as a primitive, hairy giant with horns on his head and clad in furs. Pangu set about the task of creating the world: he separated Yin from Yang with a swing of his giant axe, creating the Earth (murky Yin) and the Sky (clear Yang). To keep them separated, Pangu stood between them and pushed up the Sky. This task took eighteen thousand years, with each day the sky grew ten feet higher, the Earth ten feet wider, and Pangu ten feet taller. In some versions of the story, Pangu is aided in this task by the four most prominent beasts, namely the Turtle, the Qilin, the Phoenix, and the Dragon.

After eighteen thousand years had elapsed, Pangu was laid to rest. His breath became the wind; his voice the thunder; left eye the sun and right eye the moon; his body became the mountains and extremes of the world; his blood formed rivers; his muscles the fertile lands; his facial hair the stars and milky way; his fur the bushes and forests; his bones the valuable minerals; his bone marrows sacred diamonds; his sweat fell as rain; and the fleas on his fur carried by the wind became human beings all over the world.

The first writer to record the myth of Pangu was Xu Zheng during the Three Kingdoms period.

Shangdi is another creator deity, possibly prior to Pangu; sharing concepts similar to Abrahamic faiths.

Kazakh
According to Kazakh folk tales, Jasagnan is the creator of the world.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Creator deity


text:
Trimurti

The Trimurti is the trinity of supreme divinity in Hinduism, in which the cosmic functions of creation, preservation, and destruction are personified as a triad of deities. Typically, the designations are that of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer. The Om symbol of Hinduism is considered to have an allusion to Trimurti, where the A, U, and M phonemes of the word are considered to indicate creation, preservation and destruction, adding up to represent Brahman. The Tridevi is the trinity of goddess consorts for the Trimurti.

Evolution

The Puranic period from the 4th to the 12th century CE saw the rise of post-Vedic religion and the evolution of what R. C. Majumdar calls "synthetic Hinduism".

This period had no homogeneity, and included orthodox Brahmanism in the form of remnants of older Vedic faith traditions, along with different sectarian religions, notably Shaivism, Vaishnavism, and Shaktism that were within the orthodox fold yet still formed distinct entities. One of the important traits of this period is a spirit of harmony between orthodox and sectarian forms. Regarding this spirit of reconciliation, R. C. Majumdar says that:

"Its most notable expression is to be found in the theological conception of the, i.e., the manifestation of the supreme God in three forms of, , and ... But the attempt cannot be regarded as a great success, for never gained an ascendancy comparable to that of or , and the different sects often conceived the  as really the three manifestations of their own sectarian god, whom they regarded as Brahman or Absolute."

The identification of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva as one being is strongly emphasized in the  Purāṇa, wherein 1.6 Brahman is worshipped as Trimurti; 1.9 especially inculcates the unity of the three gods, and 1.26 relates to the same theme. Noting Western interest in the idea of trinity, historian A. L. Basham explains the background of the Trimurti as follows:

"There must be some doubt as to whether the Hindu tradition has ever recognized Brahma as the Supreme Deity in the way that Visnu and Siva have been conceived of and worshiped." The concept of Trimurti is also present in the Maitri Upanishad, where the three gods are explained as three of his supreme forms.

Trimurti temples
Temples dedicated to various permutations of the Trimurti can be seen as early as the 6th century CE, and there are still some temples today in which the Trimurti are actively worshipped.
 * Mithrananthapuram Trimurti Temple
 * Trimurti Temple Thevalapuram
 * Prambanan Trimurti Temple
 * Savadi Trimurti Temple
 * Thripaya Trimurti Temple

Views within Hinduism
In general it can be said that the trimurti has less of a role in the Hinduism of recent centuries than in ancient India.

Shaivism
Shaivites hold that, according to Shaiva Agama, Shiva performs five actions – creation, preservation, dissolution, grace, and illusion. Respectively, these first three actions are associated with Shiva as Sadyojata (akin to Brahma), Vamadeva (akin to Vishnu) and Aghora (akin to Rudra). Thus, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra are not deities different from Shiva, but rather are forms of Shiva. As Brahma/Sadyojata, Shiva creates. As Vishnu/Vamadeva, Shiva preserves. As Rudra/Aghora, he dissolves. This stands in contrast to the idea that Shiva is the "God of destruction". Shiva is the supreme God and performs all actions, of which destruction is only but one. Ergo, the Trimurti is a form of Shiva Himself for Shaivas. Shaivites believe that Shiva is the Supreme, who assumes various critical roles and assumes appropriate names and forms, and also stands transcending all these. A prominent visual example of a Shaivism version of the Trimurti is the Trimurti Sadashiva sculpture in the Elephanta Caves on Gharapuri Island.

Vaishnavism
Despite the fact that the Vishnu Purana describes that Vishnu manifests as Brahma in order to create and as Rudra (Shiva) in order to destroy, Vaishnavism generally does not acknowledge the Trimurti concept; instead, they believe in the avataras of Vishnu like Narasimha, Rama, Krishna, etc. They also believe that Shiva and Brahma are both forms of Vishnu. For example, the Dvaita school holds Vishnu alone to be the Supreme God, with Shiva subordinate, and interprets the Puranas differently. For example, Vijayindra Tîrtha, a Dvaita scholar interprets the 18 puranas differently. He interprets the Vaishnavite puranas as satvic and Shaivite puranas as tamasic and that only satvic puranas are considered to be authoritative. The tradition of Sri Vaishnavism in the south holds that all major deities that are hailed in the Puranas are in fact forms of Vishnu, and that the scriptures are dedicated to him alone.

Shaktism
The female-centric Shaktidharma denomination assigns the eminent roles of the three forms (Trimurti) of Supreme Divinity not to masculine gods but instead to feminine goddesses: Mahasarasvati (Creatrix), Mahalaxmi (Preservatrix), and Mahakali (Destructrix). This feminine version of the Trimurti is called Tridevi ("three goddesses"). The masculine gods (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) are then relegated as auxiliary agents of the supreme feminine Tridevi. In Srimad Devi Bhagwat Purana's 1st book and 4th chapter. Devi addressed Trimurti as follows:

"I am Adi Parashakti. I am the owner of this universe. I am the Absolute Reality. I am dynamic in feminine form and static in masculine form. You have appeared to govern the universe through my energy. You are the masculine form of Absolute Reality, while I am the feminine form of that Reality. I am beyond form, beyond everything, and all the powers of God are contained within me. You must know that I am the Eternal limitless energy.

She then said: Brahma! You will be generator of the universe; the Goddess Sharada (Saraswati) is your consort, she will be recognized as the goddess of wisdom and the primeval sound. Lord Brahma, this goddess will be with you when you create the universe.

She continued: Lord Narayana (Vishnu)! You are formless, yet you take form. I assign you to be the preserver of the universe. You will take different incarnations in order to save this universe's inhabitants. Oh Narayana! You have created Lord Brahma, and Brahma will further create thirty three kinds of gods and goddesses. I am goddess Mahamaya, who has made you reappear from your mystic sleep. Your consort will be goddess Lakshmi. Lord Vishnu, this goddess will be with you when you rule/maintain the universe. When life evolves, you will take the form of Vishnu, the one who will perform the task of observing and preserving this universe.

At Last she instructed: "Oh Lord Rudra Shiv, the Great God, you are the personification of time, which is above all. You will perform the task of destroying and regenerating this universe. When you are formless, time stands still. It is due to my power that you become dynamic and are capable of bringing about the destruction and regeneration of this universe. Mahakali is myself, my full form, whereas Laxmi and Saraswati are just my clones, my partial forms but due to meditation, you will surpass all my forms. It is then that I will incarnate from your left half in my manifested form. This form will be my truest manifested form. Lord Shiva, She will perform the task of destroying evil and will be your consort. ''

Smartism
Smartism is a denomination of Hinduism that places emphasis on a group of five deities rather than just a single deity. The "worship of the five forms" system, which was popularized by the ninth-century philosopher Adi Shankara among orthodox Brahmins of the Smārta tradition, invokes the five deities Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and Surya. Adi Shankara later added Kartikeya to these five, making six total. This reformed system was promoted by primarily to unite the principal deities of the six major sects on an equal status. The monistic philosophy preached by made it possible to choose one of these as a preferred principal deity and at the same time worship the other four deities as different forms of the same all-pervading Brahman.

Saura
The Saura sect that worships Surya as the supreme personality of the godhead and saguna brahman does not accept the Trimurti as they believe Surya is God. Earlier forms of the Trimurti sometimes included Surya instead of Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva or as a fourth above the Trimurti, of whom the other three are manifestations; Surya is Brahma in the morning, Vishnu in the afternoon and Shiva in the evening. Surya was also a member of the original Vedic Trimurti, which included Varuna and Vayu. Some Sauras worship either Vishnu or Brahma or Shiva as manifestations of Surya, others worship the Trimurti as a manifestation of Surya, and others exclusively worship Surya alone.

title: Trimurti


text:
Aleph (disambiguation)

Aleph is the first letter of many Semitic abjads (alphabets).

Aleph may also refer to:

Science, technology and mathematics

 * ALEPH experiment (Apparatus for LEP Physics at CERN), detector of the Large Electron-Positron Collider
 * Aleph kernel, a computer operating system kernel
 * Aleph number, in mathematics set theory
 * Aleph, an advanced system for inductive logic programming
 * Aleph (Automated Library Expandable Program), software by Ex Libris Group
 * Aleph, an investigative data platform containing an archive of government records and open databases, maintained by OCCRP
 * Aleph (TeX), a TeX engine extension consolidating Unicode features from Omega and directional features from ε-TeX
 * Aleph (psychedelic), a psychoactive drug

Literature

 * Aleph (novel), by Brazilian author Paulo Coelho
 * The Aleph and Other Stories, short story collection by Argentine author Jorge Luis Borges
 * "The Aleph" (short story), title work of the collection
 * Aleph, a character in the Warren Ellis comic series Global Frequency
 * Aleph, a plot element in the novel Mona Lisa Overdrive by William Gibson
 * Aleph (א), a shorthand designation for Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th-century manuscript of the Bible

Music

 * Aleph (band), a 1980s Italo disco band
 * Aleph (pianist), stage name of Fady Abi Saad, born 1980)
 * Aleph, a 2013 album by Gesaffelstein
 * "The Aleph", a song on the album Saints by Destroy the Runner
 * "Aleph", a song by Anahí

Organizations

 * Aleph Institute, a Jewish humanitarian organization for both prisoners and military personnel
 * ALEPH: Alliance for Jewish Renewal
 * Aleph Zadik Aleph, international youth-led fraternal organization for Jewish teenagers
 * Aleph Melbourne, an LGBT Jewish organization
 * Aleph, the current name of the Japanese cult and terrorist group Aum Shinrikyo

People with the surname

 * Patrick Aleph (born 1983), American writer and musician

Other

 * Aleph (film), a silent film by Wallace Berman
 * Aleph (journal), an academic journal on Jewish history and the history of science
 * Aleph One game engine for the Marathon trilogy
 * Aleph Sailing Team, a French America's Cup syndicate
 * Mount Aleph, a location in the video game Golden Sun
 * Aleph, the protagonist of the video game Shin Megami Tensei II
 * Aleph, the highest and most threatening ranking for Abnormalities in the Korean video game Lobotomy Corporation

title: Aleph (disambiguation)