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Palatinate (region)

The Palatinate (Pfalz; Palatine German: Palz), or the Rhenish Palatinate (Rheinpfalz), is a historical region of Germany. The Palatinate occupies most of the southern quarter of the German federal state of Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz), covering an area of 2105 mi2 with about 1.4 million inhabitants. Its residents are known as Palatines (Pfälzer).

Geography
The Palatinate borders Saarland in the west, historically also comprising the state's Saarpfalz District. In the northwest, the Hunsrück mountain range forms the border with the Rhineland region. The eastern border with Hesse and the Baden region runs along the Upper Rhine river, while the left bank, with Mainz and Worms as well as the Selz basin around Alzey, belong to the Rhenish Hesse region. In the south, the German-French border separates the Palatinate from Alsace.

One-third of the region is covered by the Palatinate Forest (Pfälzerwald), including the Palatinate Forest Nature Park popular with hikers. With about 1771 km2, it is Germany's largest contiguous forested area, and is part of the Franco-German Palatinate Forest-North Vosges Biosphere Reserve.

The western and northern part of the Palatinate is densely forested and mountainous. Its highest mountain is the Donnersberg with a height of 687 m, situated in the North Palatine Uplands near Kirchheimbolanden. Most of the major Palatinate towns (Ludwigshafen, Speyer, Landau, Frankenthal, Neustadt) lie in the lower eastern part of the Upper Rhine Plain down to the River Rhine. Here the German Wine Route (Deutsche Weinstraße) passes through the Palatinate wine region. It is one of the greatest wine-producing regions in Germany, and in the last two decades has become well known for its prize-winning white and reds of highest quality produced by a number of talented young winemakers.

Major rivers include the Upper Rhine tributaries Lauter, Queich and Speyerbach, as well as Schwarzbach and Glan in the west.

Historically the Electoral Palatinate and several other territories were part of the Palatinate, but today belong to other German territories.

Subdivision
The Palatinate is divided into four non-administrative sub-regions, comprising the following rural districts and independent towns and cities:
 * North Palatinate (Nordpfalz), i.e. the sparsely inhabited North Palatine Uplands, made up of
 * Donnersbergkreis (KIB), including the small towns of Eisenberg, Kirchheimbolanden and Rockenhausen
 * Anterior Palatinate (Vorderpfalz) between Upper Rhine and the Haardt range of the Palatinate Forest
 * Bad Dürkheim (DÜW)
 * Rhein-Pfalz-Kreis (RP)
 * and the towns and cities of Frankenthal (FT), Ludwigshafen (LU), Neustadt an der Weinstraße (NW) and Speyer (SP)
 * South Palatinate (Südpfalz).
 * Germersheim (GER)
 * Südliche Weinstraße (SÜW)
 * and the town of Landau (LD)
 * West Palatinate (Westpfalz) up to the western part of the North Palatine Uplands
 * Kaiserslautern (district) (KL)
 * Kusel (KUS)
 * Südwestpfalz (PS)
 * and the towns of Kaiserslautern (KL), Pirmasens (PS) and Zweibrücken (ZW).

Climate
Like most of Southwestern Germany, the Palatinate’s climate is either humid subtropical in areas below 300 meters or oceanic on higher ground. The average annual temperatures vary from around 11-14 degrees Celsius in the valleys and 8-10 degrees in the highlands. Wet air from the prevailing westerly and southwesterly winds leads to precipitation in the Mittelgebirge ranges, while it warms up on its way further down to the Rhine Valley; giving the valleys a considerably drier climate than the surrounding Palatine Forest.

History
During the Holy Roman Empire prior to World War II, it was also referred to as Rhenish Bavaria and Lower Palatinate (Unterpfalz), which designated only the western part of the Electorate of the Palatinate (Kurfürstentum Pfalz), as opposed to the Upper Palatinate (Oberpfalz).

Formerly a Celtic region, this area was conquered by the Roman Empire under Emperor Augustus in about 12 BCE; thereafter, it was part of the province of Germania Superior. During the decline of the Empire, Alamannic tribes settled here; their territory was conquered by Francia under King Clovis I about 496. From 511 onwards, the area belonged to the eastern part of Frankish Austrasia, which—as Rhenish Franconia—became part of East Francia according to the 843 Treaty of Verdun.

Holy Roman Empire
From the Middle Ages until 1792, the Palatinate was divided into 45 secular and ecclesiastical territories, some of which were very small. The largest and most important of these was the Electorate of the Palatinate (Kurfürstentum Pfalz), encompassing a number of Franconian territories on both sides of the Rhine formerly held by the Counts palatine (Pfalzgrafen) of Lotharingia. By the late 12th century, the Count palatine had achieved the status of a Prince-elector (Kurfürst), becoming one of the seven higher nobles with the privilege of electing the Emperor, as confirmed by the Golden Bull of 1356. In 1214, the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach was enfeoffed with these estates, which they ruled until 1918, together with the collateral branch of Palatine Zweibrücken from 1410. Needing stronger protection, they lost control with the reunification with Bavaria under Elector Charles Theodore in 1777.

The major ecclesiastical territory in the region was the Bishopric of Speyer. The Imperial city of Landau joined the Alsatian Décapole in 1521 to preserve its status. Nevertheless, it was seized by France after the Thirty Years' War.

Other larger regional entities included the Duchy of Zweibrücken and the Prince-Bishopric of Speyer. The Prince-Bishopric held possessions on both sides of the Rhine. For centuries, the Electoral Palatinate and Bavaria maintained dynastic links because both were ruled by members of the Wittelsbach family.

French rule
In 1794, the Left Bank of the Rhine, including the Palatinate, was occupied by French revolutionary troops. As a result of the Treaty of Campo Formio (1797), the First French Republic annexed the region. In 1798, the French introduced a new administrative system with the establishment of departments. The area of the Palatinate largely became the Département of Mont Tonnerre, laying the cornerstone of its regional identity today. Minor parts of today's region were attached to the neighbouring departments of the Sarre and Bas-Rhin. The French further subdivided the department into cantons, mayoralties and municipalities, and introduced their legal system (Napoleonic Code) and the metric system.

Bavarian rule
Following the defeat of Napoleon at the Battle of Leipzig in 1813 and the capture of the Left Bank of the Rhine by the Allies in January 1814, the region was, from 2 February 1814, initially under the provisional authority of the General Government of the Middle Rhine. However, from 16 June of the same year, it was placed under the administration of the Imperial-Royal ("k.k.") Austrian and Royal Bavarian Joint Land Administration Commission (k. k. östreichischen und k. bairischen gemeinschaftliche Landes-Administrations-Kommission).

In the main treaty agreed at the Congress of Vienna in 1815, and dated 9 June 1815, Article 51 stated (inter alia) that on the Left Bank of the Rhine the former French départements of the Sarre and Mont-Tonnerre, except where set forth in the same treaty, were to fall "with full sovereignty" and ownership rights within the overlordship of His Majesty the Emperor of Austria (Herrschaft Sr. Maj. des Kaisers von Oesterreich). Initially, however, joint Austro-Bavarian administration was retained.

On 14 April 1816, a treaty was signed between Austria and Bavaria in which the various territorial changes were agreed on. According to Article 2 of the treaty, Emperor Francis I of Austria ceded various regions to King Maximilian I of Bavaria. These included, in addition to various regions east of the Rhine, the following regions west of the Rhine:

 * In the Département of Mont-Tonnerre (Donnersberg):
 * the districts of Zweibrücken, Kaiserslautern, and Speier; the latter with the exception of the cantons of Worms and Pfeddersheim;
 * the canton of Kirchheim-Bolanden, in the district of Alzei.
 * In the Département of the Sarre:
 * the cantons of Waldmohr, Blieskastel, and Kusel, the latter with the exception of several villages on the road from Sankt Wendel to Baumholder, for which there was to be compensation, by another territorial transfer, with the agreement of the assembled plenipotentiaries of the allied powers at Frankfurt.
 * In the Département of the Bas Rhin:
 * the canton, town, and fortress of Landau, the latter as a federal fortress in accordance with the regulations of 3 November 1815;
 * the cantons of Bergzabern, Langenkandel, and the whole part of the Département of Bas Rhin on the left bank of the Lauter, which had been ceded in the Paris Tractat of 20 November 1815.

These changes took effect on 1 May 1816.

In accordance with the prevailing Bavarian administrative structure, the region became one of eight Bavarian districts (Kreise). From 1808, Bavaria embarked on the administrative reorganisation of its territory, creating districts which, as in France, were named after the main local rivers. Thus, the new district along the Rhine was given the name Rheinkreis (i.e. the Rhine district), with Speyer as its capital. Of the former French administrative structure, the subdivision of the district into arrondissements, cantons, mayoralties, and municipalities was, in large measure, retained. The Bavarian government also preserved the French legal system (Code Napoléon), giving the Palatinate a distinct legal status within the Bavarian kingdom. At the next lower level, the three former French arrondissements were continued as Kreisdirektion ("Circle", i.e. district, "direction") of Frankenthal, Kaiserslautern, and Zweibrücken. Kreisdirektion Landau was, however, a new creation. In 1818, the cantons were merged into 12 administrative districts called Landkommissariat. In 1862, these were designated individually as Bezirksamt. In 1939, each one became a Landkreis (rural district). As his first provincial governor, King Maximilian selected the Privy Councillor (Hofrat) Franz Xaver von Zwack, whose name gave rise to the popular Palatine nickname for Bavarians, Zwockel. In 1832 the Rheinkreis became the focal point of liberal movements. The Hambach Festival, a large gathering near Neustadt an der Weinstraße, proved fertile ground for what came to be considered a milestone in German history.

In 1835, King Ludwig I of Bavaria's romantic outlook gave rise to the adoption of new, historically evocative names for the administrative districts of Bavaria. As such, the Rheinkreis officially became the Pfalz (Palatinate). The historic Electorate of the Palatinate had spanned both sides of the Rhine with Heidelberg and Mannheim as its capitals on the eastern side, whereas the new "Palatinate" established in 1815–16 lay solely on the left bank of the Rhine. It included territories that had never been part of the historical Palatinate (e.g., territories of the former Bishopric of Speyer, the imperial city of Speyer or Kirchheimbolanden, which had formerly belonged to the Weilburg branch of Nassau). To avoid confusion of the new Palatinate and the former one (and with the Upper Palatinate), the name Rhenish Palatinate (Rheinpfalz) became common and is still used today, but was never made its official name. Another term, that of Rhenish Bavaria (Rheinbayern), though used occasionally, never gained great currency, but can, nonetheless, be found sometimes on older maps.

The Bavarian Royal Family tried to encourage Palatine unity with Bavaria by erecting a royal palace in Edenkoben, and by restoring Speyer Cathedral under the direct supervision of King Ludwig I. The new town of Ludwigshafen was named after the king. Despite these attempts, the Palatinate's representatives to the Bavarian Parliament always prided themselves on the claim that they came from a more progressive region. Indeed, they tried to promote their liberalism, which the French had introduced to the Palatinate, to the whole Bavarian kingdom. German historian Heiner Haan described the special status accorded the Palatinate within Bavaria as being one of a Hauptstaat (main state, i.e. Bavaria) with a Nebenstaat (adjacent state, i.e. the Palatinate).

In May/June 1849, after the failed revolution of 1848, and as part of the Imperial Constitution campaign, separatist elements wanted the district to secede from Bavaria and establish its own "Palatine Republic". A separatist uprising was suppressed by Prussian military intervention. The Palatinate's union with Bavaria persisted after it became part of the German Empire in 1871, and, indeed, after the Wittelsbach dynasty was deposed, and Bavaria became a free state of the Weimar Republic in 1918.

In 1910, the town of Landau was declared independent of the Bezirksamt.

French occupation of the Palatinate
After World War I, French troops occupied the Palatinate under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. In 1920, the western Bezirksämter of Sankt Ingbert and Homburg (Saarpfalz) were separated from the Bavarian Palatinate, and became part of the newly established Saarland, which, according to the peace treaty, was governed by the League of Nations. That same year, seven more towns were declared independent of the Bezirksämter: Speyer, Ludwigshafen, Frankenthal, Neustadt an der Weinstraße, Kaiserslautern, Pirmasens, and Zweibrücken. They remain separate to this day.

Between 1919 and 1923, during the occupation, there were French-backed attempts at separating the Palatinate from Bavaria and the Empire. On 1 June 1919, Eberhard Haaß, founder of the "Free Palatine Association" (1918), proclaimed the "Palatine Republic", but failed to occupy the government building in Speyer.

On 23 November 1923, Franz Josef Heinz proclaimed the "Government of the Autonomous Palatinate in the Association of the Rhenish Republic" at Speyer, after gaining control of the towns of Kaiserslautern, Neustadt, and Landau, and after the capitulation of the Palatine government. In the following days, several more towns fell into his group's hands. The Bavarian government reacted sharply. It organised a squad under the command of Edgar Julius Jung. On 9 January 1924, Heinz was assassinated while dining at the Wittelsbacher Hof in Speyer. Other leading members of the separatist movement were killed on 12 February, in a shooting in Pirmasens. By then, a treaty between Bavaria and the Inter-Allied Rhineland High Commission (the supreme council of the Allied occupation forces) of January 1924 recognised the status quo and guaranteed that the Palatinate would remain a part of Bavaria, thereby putting an end to separatist attempts.

Under Nazi rule, from 1933 to 1945, the Palatinate officially remained part of Bavaria, but was otherwise totally reorganised—it was merged with the Saarland into the Gau Westmark, with headquarters in Saarbrücken.

Rhineland-Palatinate
The union with Bavaria was finally dissolved following the reorganisation of German states during the Allied occupation of Germany after World War II. While Bavaria itself was part of the U.S. occupation zone, the Palatinate was occupied by French forces. The French reorganised their occupation zone by founding new states, so that in 1947 the Palatinate was combined with Rhenish Hesse (Rheinhessen), the former parts of the People's State of Hesse west of the Rhine, and the southern part of the Prussian Rhine Province, to form the German federal state of Rhineland-Palatinate. The Palatinate formed the administrative district (Regierungsbezirk) of the Pfalz. This reorganisation came with smaller losses of former district territory to the Saarland, especially in the area of Sankt Wendel. As part of the 1969 administrative reform, some minor border changes were made in the north. The Diocese of Speyer and the Evangelical Church of the Palatinate still exist today largely based on the historic boundaries of the old Bavarian district.

The Pfalz was initially one of five districts in Rhineland-Palatinate; however, in 1968, the district was merged with the neighbouring district of Rheinhessen to form the district of Rheinhessen-Pfalz. On 1 January 2000, all administrative districts of Rheinland-Pfalz were dissolved.

Pennsylvania Dutch
Many Pennsylvania Dutchmen are descendants of Palatine immigrants. The Pennsylvania Dutch language, spoken by the Amish, Mennonites, and Fancy Dutch in the United States, is derived primarily from the Palatine German language which many Mennonite refugees brought to Pennsylvania in the years 1717 to 1732. The only existing Pennsylvania German newspaper, Hiwwe wie Driwwe, was founded 1996 in the village of Ober-Olm, which is located close to Mainz, the state capital (and is published bi-annually as a cooperation project with Kutztown University). In the same village one can find the headquarters of the German-Pennsylvanian Association.

Many more Palatines emigrated in the course of the 19th century, and the great majority of them to North America, so that in the US temporarily "Palatine" was a common designation for German Americans. Johann Heinrich Heinz (1811–1891), the father of Henry John Heinz who founded the H. J. Heinz Company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, emigrated from Kallstadt, Palatinate, to the United States in 1840.

Cuisine

Arguably the most famous dish in Palatinate is the saumagen, literally "sow's stomach", a dish that consists of a thick, crispy-fried casing (sow stomach) stuffed with a mixture of pork, potatoes, and seasonings. Other traditional meat dishes of the region include bratwurst, Palatinate liverwurst, a blood pudding sausage called grieweworscht ("griewe" are speck (bacon) cubes, so lit. "sausage with bacon bits"), lewwerknedel (Leberknödel) (or lewwerknepp, liver dumplings), and fleeschknepp (Fleischknödel: meat dumplings). Sauerkraut is the typical side dish in all seasons, but especially in winter, as are mashed potatoes and brown gravy. Also eaten are dampfnudels, which can be served with either sweet sauces or side dishes (such as wine, vanilla sauce or canned fruit such as plums, prunes, or pears) or with savory side dishes (such as potato soup, vegetable soup, goulash, or pepper pork).

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Finglas

Finglas is a northwestern outer suburb of Dublin, Ireland. It lies close to Junction 5 of the M50 motorway, and the N2 road. Nearby suburbs include Glasnevin and Ballymun; Dublin Airport is 7 km to the north. Finglas lies mainly in the postal district of Dublin 11.

Finglas is the core of a civil parish of the same name in the barony of Castleknock.

Name
The name Finglas (Fionnghlas), meaning clear streamlet, is derived from the Finglas River, which passed through the historic settlement.

Geography
The centre of Finglas lies on a rise overlooking the valley of the River Tolka, at an altitude of 59 m. The Tolka runs through western and southern Finglas, and forms part of the boundary between Finglas and Glasnevin. Flowing from the north is the stream, the Finglas River, for which the area is named, forming in turn from branches from the townlands of Grange and Kildonan to the north. After meeting a tributary, the St. Margaret's Road Stream, the Finglas flows through the village centre in a culvert, and along the eastern side of Finglas Road, joining the Tolka at Finglas Bridge. To the west of the village centre rises the Finglaswood Stream, which joins the River Tolka via an Integrated Constructed Wetland near a small civic golf course.

Early history
Finglas was originally the site of an Early Christian abbey, the origin of which has been associated, from early times, with the name of St. Cainnech, or Canice, the patron of Kilkenny, said to have founded it in 560 A.D. According to an ancient legend, the ground on which Finglas stands had been sanctified by St. Patrick, who is said to have uttered a prophecy that a great town would arise at the ford of hurdles in the vale beneath. The Nethercross from the first abbey can be seen today in the old graveyard.

St. Canice is said to have been born at Glengiven near Derry. Several primary schools and churches in the area have been named after Canice, including the local Church of Ireland church (built in 1843) and Roman Catholic church (built in 1920 on the site of a much earlier mass house).

Early modern period
The Finglas or Finglass family, who were prominent in the legal profession and in politics in the sixteenth century, took their name from the district. THe family were recorded in Termonfeckin and Dublin but many of them had by the mid 1700s taken up residence in Drogheda (where they participated in the 1798 Rebellion); newspaper accounts report their opening up the Boyne River for salmon fishing.

In 1649, the Duke of Ormonde used Finglas as a staging post for his army before launching an unsuccessful Siege of Dublin.

Following the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, Finglas was used as a camp for four days by William of Orange en route to Dublin city. While there he issued the Declaration of Finglas, offering a pardon for many of James II's defeated supporters.

20th century onwards
In 1932, Ireland's first commercial airport was set up at Kildonan in Finglas. It was the site for the first Irish commercial aircraft, a Desoutter Mark II aircraft "EI-AAD", and the first commercial air taxi service, the Iona National Air Taxis and Flying School.

In the 1950s, Finglas was developed with extensive housing estates, to rehouse many north inner-city Dublin residents. Many of these estates, particularly in Finglas West, were named after prominent Irish republicans from early 20th-century Irish history, including Barry, Casement, Plunkett, Mellows, McKee, Clune and Clancy.

Amenities
In the village centre is a range of shops, including one of the first-established Superquinn stores (since rebranded as SuperValu), banking facilities, pubs and restaurants. To the north are several light industrial estates.

Charlestown Shopping Centre and Clearwater Shopping Centre, are located outside the village core, to the north and south of Finglas respectively.

Finglas is home to one of Dublin's four Road Safety Authority Driving Testing Centres, which is located in Jamestown Business Park.

The Finglas Maypole Arts Festival was launched in 2019. In its first year, the festival committee was part of a steering group that got the first blue plaque in Finglas – to honour the uileann piper Séamus Ennis.

Education
There are 13 primary and national schools in the Finglas area, and 6 secondary schools. Coláiste Íde College of Further Education is located in Finglas West and offers third level courses.

Sports
The Rugby Union club Unidare RFC and the GAA club Erins Isle are based in the area. Soccer clubs include Tolka Rovers F.C., Valley Park United, WFTA Football Club, Willows FC and Finglas Celtic FC, Rivermount Football Club and Beneavin F.C.

Transport
Finglas is served by a number of bus routes operated by Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland. These include the 9, N4, N6, 40, 40B, 40D, 40E, 83, 83A,140 & 220. The main route serving the area is the number 40 which runs between Charlestown Shopping Centre and Liffey Valley via Dublin city centre. A new route, the 40E, was also introduced from Tyrellstown to provide a direct link to the extended Luas Green Line in Broombridge. Other routes serving the area include the 17A which runs between Kilbarrack to Blanchardstown, the 140 which runs to Rathmines via the city centre and the 83 which runs to Kimmage via Glasnevin and the city centre. It is also served by the 88N Nitelink service. Two Bus Éireann routes also serve Finglas, passing along the main Finglas Road, including the 103 from Duleek/Kilmoon Cross/Ashbourne to the city centre.

Representation and governance
Finglas is in the jurisdiction of Dublin City Council, and for local elections it is part of the Finglas-Ballymun local electoral area.

Finglas is part of the Dublin North-West constituency for elections to Dáil Éireann.

The civil parish of Finglas is a civil parish in the barony of Castleknock.

Notable people
Finglas has been the home of a number of notable figures, including: And in sport:
 * Dermot Bolger, writer and poet, whose novels The Woman's Daughter and Night Shift are set in Finglas
 * Bono, lead singer of U2
 * Achmet Borumborad, con-artist who operated in late 18th-century Dublin
 * Charles Bowden, Irish criminal
 * Gerard Byrne (born 1958), Irish artist
 * Declan Cassidy filmmaker, television producer and author
 * Patrick Clarke (filmmaker) The opening scene from Beyond the Pale (film) was shot in Erin's Isle GAA Club
 * Christy Dignam, Joe Jewell, and Alan Downey, Aslan musicians
 * Martin Doherty, volunteer for the Provisional Irish Republican Army
 * Regina Doherty, Fine Gael Senator and former Minister for Social Protection
 * Eamon "The Don" Dunne, Irish crime boss
 * Dessie Ellis, Sinn Féin TD
 * Séamus Ennis, uilleann piper
 * Mairead Farrell, radio and television personality
 * Pat Fenlon, Football manager
 * Tony Fenton, Today FM DJ
 * Patrick Finglas (died 1537), Lord Chief Justice of Ireland
 * John Fogarty CSSp, Superior General of the Congregation of the Holy Spirit
 * Niamh Kavanagh, Eurovision Song Contest 1993 winner, and Irish representative for the Eurovision Song Contest 2010
 * Dick McKee, volunteer for the Irish Republican Army
 * Colm Meaney, actor
 * Brendan O'Carroll, comedian and actor
 * Stephen O'Rahilly, endocrinologist and scientist researching obesity and diabetes
 * Spiral, a former Big Brother contestant, who wrote, performed and released a song about Finglas
 * Irish international footballers: Ronnie Whelan, Frank Stapleton, David O'Leary, Alan Moore, Mark Kinsella, Stephen Kelly, and footballers John Keogh, Cliff Byrne, Paddy Madden and Derek Brazil.
 * All Ireland winning Dublin GAA players: James McCarthy, Charlie Redmond, Barney Rock and Jason Sherlock

In popular culture
The BBC sitcom, Mrs. Brown's Boys, is set in Finglas.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

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Tantalus

Tantalus (Τάνταλος Tántalos), also called Atys, was a Greek mythological figure, most famous for his punishment in Tartarus: for trying to trick the gods into eating his son, he was made to stand in a pool of water beneath a fruit tree with low branches, with the fruit ever eluding his grasp, and the water always receding before he could take a drink.

Tantalus was the father of Pelops, Niobe, and Broteas. He was a son of Zeus and a woman named Plouto. Thus, like other heroes in Greek mythology such as Theseus (his great-great-grandson) and the Dioskouroi, he had one divine and one mortal parent.

The Greeks used the proverb "Tantalean punishment" (Ταντάλειοι τιμωρίαι: Tantáleioi timōríai) in reference to those who have good things but are not permitted to enjoy them. His name and punishment are also the source of the English word tantalize, meaning to torment with the sight of something desired but out of reach; tease by arousing expectations that are repeatedly disappointed.

Etymology
Plato in the Cratylus (395e) interprets Τάνταλος (Tántalos) as ταλάντατος (talántatos) [ acc. ταλάντατον: talántaton in the original], "who has to bear much" from τάλας (tálas) "wretched".

The word τάλας (tálas) is held by some to be inherited from Proto-Indo-European, although R. S. P. Beekes rejects an Indo-European interpretation.

Historical background
There may have been a historical Tantalus, possibly the ruler of an Anatolian city named "Tantalís", "the city of Tantalus", or of a city named "Sipylus". Pausanias reports that there was a port under his name and a sepulcher of him "by no means obscure", in the same region.

Tantalus is sometimes referred to as "King of Phrygia", although his city was located in the western extremity of Anatolia, where Lydia was to emerge as a state before the beginning of the first millennium BC, and not in the traditional heartland of Phrygia, situated more inland. References to his son as "Pelops the Lydian" led some scholars to the conclusion that there would be good grounds for believing that he belonged to a primordial house of Lydia.

Other versions name his father as Tmolus, the name of a king of Lydia and, like Sipylus, of another mountain in ancient Lydia. The location of Tantalus' mortal mountain-fathers generally placed him in Lydia; and more seldom in Phrygia or Paphlagonia, all in Asia Minor.

The identity of his wife is variously given: generally as Dione the daughter of Atlas; the Pleiad Taygete, daughter of Atlas; Eurythemista, a daughter of the river-god Xanthus; Euryanassa, daughter of Pactolus, another river-god of Anatolia, like the Xanthus; Clytia, the child of Amphidamantes; and Eupryto. Tantalus was also called the father of Dascylus.

Tantalus, through Pelops, was the progenitor of the House of Atreus, which was named after his grandson Atreus. Tantalus was also the great-grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus.

The geographer Strabo states that the wealth of Tantalus was derived from the mines of Phrygia and Mount Sipylus. Near Mount Sipylus are archaeological features that have been associated with Tantalus and his house since Antiquity. Near Mount Yamanlar in İzmir (ancient Smyrna), where the Lake Karagöl (Lake Tantalus) associated with the accounts surrounding him is found, is a monument mentioned by Pausanias: the tholos "tomb of Tantalus" (later Christianized as "Saint Charalambos' tomb") and another one in Mount Sipylus, and where a "throne of Pelops", an altar or bench carved in rock and conjecturally associated with his son is found.

Based on a similarity between the names Tantalus and Hantili, it has been suggested that the name Tantalus may have derived from that of these two Hittite kings.

Mythology
Tantalus became one of the inhabitants of Tartarus, the deepest portion of the Underworld, reserved for the punishment of evildoers; there Odysseus saw him. The association of Tantalus with the underworld is underscored by the names of his mother Plouto ("riches", as in gold and other mineral wealth), and grandmother, Chthonia ("earth").

Tantalus was initially known for having been welcomed to Zeus' table in Olympus, like Ixion. There, he is said to have abused Zeus' hospitality and stolen ambrosia and nectar to bring it back to his people, and revealed the secrets of the gods.

Most famously, Tantalus offered up his son, Pelops, as a sacrifice. He cut Pelops up, boiled him, and served him up in a banquet for several gods in order to test their omniscience. The gods became aware of the gruesome nature of the menu, so they did not touch the offering; only Demeter, distraught by the loss of her daughter, Persephone, absentmindedly ate part of the boy's shoulder.

Clotho, one of the three Fates, was ordered by Zeus to bring the boy to life again. She collected the parts of the body and boiled them in a sacred cauldron, rebuilding his shoulder with one wrought of ivory made by Hephaestus and presented by Demeter.

The revived Pelops grew to be an extraordinarily handsome youth. The god Poseidon took him to Mount Olympus to teach him to use chariots. Later, Zeus threw Pelops out of Olympus due to his anger at Tantalus.

Tantalus's punishment for his act was to stand in a pool of water beneath a fruit tree with low branches. Whenever he reached for the fruit, the branches raised his intended meal from his grasp. Whenever he bent down to get a drink, the water receded before he could get any.

Over his head towers a threatening stone (mentioned in Pindar's 8th Isthmian ode, lines 10–12) like the one that Sisyphus is punished to roll up a hill. This fate has cursed him with eternal deprivation of nourishment.

In a different story, Tantalus was blamed for indirectly having stolen the gold dog which Rhea had once put to watch over infant Zeus (in another version, it was a mechanical dog crafted by Hephaestus to guard a temple of Zeus ). Tantalus's friend Pandareus stole the dog and gave it to Tantalus for safekeeping. When asked later by Pandareus to return the dog, Tantalus denied that he had it, saying he "had neither seen nor heard of a golden dog." According to Robert Graves in The Greek Myths, this incident is why an enormous stone hangs over Tantalus's head. Others state that it was Tantalus who stole the dog, and gave it to Pandareus for safekeeping.

Tantalus was also the founder of the cursed House of Atreus in which variations on these atrocities continued. Misfortunes also occurred as a result of these acts, making the house the subject of many Greek tragedies. Tantalus's grave-sanctuary stood on Sipylus but honours were paid him at Argos, where local tradition claimed to possess his bones. In Lesbos, there was another hero-shrine in the small settlement of Polion and a mountain named after Tantalos.

title: Tantalus


text:
Talk:Texas/Archive 1

WikiProject:Texas
There is a new WikiProject dedicated to improving and expanding Texas related topics on Wikipedia. Check it out and see if any of y'all want to sign up as participants. -JCarriker 05:41, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)

Bug reports
The picture isn't showing up. -- Zoe
 * Offsite image. They got disabled awhile back.  I was transferring them over for awhile (the ones we can use, anyway) & then stopped.  --KQ

Formerly sovereign states
"Texas was the first state in the United States to be a sovereign nation before joining the United States". This phrasing is inaccurate because it suggests that Texas (1n 1836) was independent before Hawaii (in 1795). I believe that you intended to consider the order in which they joined, and I've made changes to reflect that.

 * The current version's "Apart from aboriginal nations and the Vermont Republic, Texas became the first sovereign nation which the United States annexed" isn't really any better. Since it joined the union well after the Vermont Republic, it's not first, is it?  Otherwise, this statement is akin to "I'm the best in the world, except for everyone that's better."  Kaszeta 19:25, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Red River
Is the Red River in the Texas/Oklahoma area ever called the Red River of the South? I disambugiated the one in Minnesota by calling it the Red River of the North, which it IS called, but I've never heard the southern one called the Red River of the South. -- Zoe
 * I've certainly never heard it called that, though I've never lived further north than Austin. -Ben
 * I've never heard that usage either -- but I suspect it's because the Red River that forms the northern border of Texas and then heads down through Louisiana was settled far earlier than that little stream up in the Frozen Nawth, and there was nothing at the time that it had to be disambiguated from. . . . --Michael K. Smith 22:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Capitol
The capitol building is not made of texas pink granite. Reference: Houston Chronicle, Mar 9, 2003. The shade of granite from Granite Mountain, where the capitol stone was mined is now known at "sunset red", but was originally called "texas pink". Perhaps only of importance if you're trying to buy some granite? -bill

"These place-names line the Rotunda of the Capitol in Austin" Can someone explain what this means? :P --Golbez 06:32, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * A not very clear way of saying they're incised along the tops of the walls, rather like the names of the states at the Lincoln Memorial. Michael K. Smith 22:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I used to work as a lobbyist in the Capitol and the only place I remember seeing them was on the floor of the south entrance of the building, across from the Governor's Office, where all the guided tours used to start. But it has been nearly 20 years ago. Holford 23:47, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

- The "less massive" may just be a matter of semantics. I'm working from memory of a tour of the capitol building a couple of years ago, but I recall the tour guide saying something to the effect of the architects taking the length and width of the US capitol building and knocking off a couple of feet. I regret that I have no definitive source for that, so take it for what it's worth.Marstinson 21:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The Texas region?
Various people have moved Texas back and forth between the US Southwest and the US South. I've listed both. Remember that these categories are more sometimes usefull overgeneralizations than absolute clasifications.

FYI, my old Encyclopedia Americana begins their article "Texas, one of the Southwestern states". A Texan friend of mine says that the border between the US South and the US West runs about halfway between the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth. I take neither of these pronouncements as definitive. :-) Your neighbor across the Sabine, -- Infrogmation 16:31 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Hi, Froggie -- What are you doin' readin' this Texas stuff? Arlington -- midway between Dallas & Ft. Worth -- is indeed the geological, botanical, and meteorological dividing line between East Texas and West Texas, but not between The South & The West, I don't think. It has been said, with a fair degree of truth, that simply because of its size, Texas is a "region" unto itself. The differences between Orange, Amarillo, El Paso, and Brownsville are enormous in every respect. (To quote the old complaint, "The sun has riz, the sun has set, and here I is, in Texas yet.") --Michael K. Smith 22:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC) (San Antonio native, lifetime Dallasite, now in exile in Baton Rouge...)

If I may add to a long-expired discussion, that dividing line between Dallas and Fort Worth is not too far from accurate. But it truly depends on what you mean when you say "region." I grew up in Dallas, which maintained a decidedly southern atmosphere and outlook, while Fort Worth very much viewed itself as western. At the time of Texas' annexation, the westward extent of settlement in Texas more or less followed the present-day route of I-35 from the Red River down to San Antonio, with a bit of a "hump" to encompass the Hill Country. The settlers east and south of this line were predominantly from the South, which probably accounts for the prevailing atmosphere in that part of the state. Towns like Fort Worth, Abilene, Wichita Falls and extending into the Panhandle grew up with the cattle boom and railroad and have a decidedly western attitude and feel. El Paso, like many other towns along the border, is very much southwestern. However, all of this has very little to do with geographic regions and a lot to do with cultural regions.

If you want to talk physical geography, Texas includes pieces of four US geographic regions: the Coastal Plains (appromately following that I-35 line), the North Central Plains (extending from Fort Worth westward to the Caprock Escarpment and southward to about San Angelo), the Great Plains (the northern and western half of the Panhandle area and extending southward to the Balcones Escarpment), and the Rocky Mountains (starting a bit west of the Pecos River and going west to the Rio Grande).

The Coastal Plains region is further subdivided into about five subregions. The North Central Plains region has three or four subregions (depends on who you ask). The Great Plains has two or three, depending on whether the Llano Uplift (or Llano Basin - need some standardized terminology here) is included in the Edwards Plateau or broken off on its own. The Rocky Mountains only has one subregion, although there is often argument over where the eastern border is. Some have it follow the Pecos River for convenience, while other start it approximately where the Pecos River enters Texas, but go almost straight south to the Rio Grande from there. I think every 7th grader in the state has to memorize those subregions, but none of their textbooks agree with each other except for the four regions and the subregions of the Coastal Plains.Marstinson 21:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Spanish and Mexican Texas
BTW, is someone planning to write the articles for Spanish Texas and Mexican Texas? If not, perhaps the article shouldn't be urging readers to see those non existant articles. --Infrogmation 16:35 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

State length and width
Hi, I'm looking for a table of the US State's length and width information that is found in each state summary (I am doing some college research). If you know about such, please send an email to z_arreguinma@titan.sfasu.edu (I don't know that I'll remember to come back and check this page.)

It would also be helpful to know what guidelines were used to make the measurements (did they measure east and west from the geographic center to find the length or use the widest measurement from the geographic center or some other method?)

Marcus Arreguin

 * For what it's worth, when you enter Texas on Interstate-10 at Orange (headed west), there's a big mileage sign reading "El Paso -- 855 miles". ---Michael K. Smith 22:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The "Lone Star State"
I believe the Texas state nickname, and the single star on the Texas flag have their origin in the "fact" that there was only one US Marshall assigned to the entire territory prior to Texas becomeing a state. This would mean that the opening paragraph is in error. I placed the word fact in quotes above because, despite living in Texas, I do not know if that is actually a fact. Does anyone already know about this? Thanks - DavidR 20:41, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * I always thought it was because of the flag, and that the flag had it due to independence. But I won't claim to be a definitive source by any means.  Cheers, Meelar 20:45, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * This sounds very odd. Texas was of course an independent Republic until its admission to the Union and was never a U.S. territory per se. I believe the flag dates from the foundation of the Republic, which was ten years before annexation by the U.S. -- Decumanus 20:48, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Follow up. According the Texas Handbook Online, the flag was designed in 1839, and was called the "Lone Star Flag". -- Decumanus 20:51, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * One of the most popular predecessors to the present Lone Star flag, during the Texas Revolution, was the "Bonnie Blue Flag," with a single white star centered on a blue background. An argument can be made (and often is, here in Louisiana), that the whole "lone start" theme originated in the short-lived Republic of West Florida in 1810 (consisting of what are now the "Florida Parishes" east of the River and north of Orleans), whose flag was identical to the Bonnie Blue Flag. And there were, not surprisingly, a number of Louisianians among the early Anglo settlers of Texas. (New Orleans supplied the flag that flew at the Alamo, in fact, and which is still in Mexico City, I think.) Michael K. Smith 22:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You are correct, sir. I have made extensive edits to Bonnie Blue Flag, and West Florida to reflect this history.  Also, it is interesting to note that the original Texas flag was not quite the "bonnie blue" flag, since it had a yellow star instead of a white one (See Flag of Texas).  --JW1805 22:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

State slogan
The page currently says that the state slogan was formerly, "Don't mess with Texas." I don't think that's true... that's the slogan for TxDOT's anti-littering campaign, but as far as I know, it has never been the state's slogan, which is generally a little catchphrase meant to attract tourists. "Don't mess with Texas" would probably scare the tourists away. Also, it's not a "former" slogan; it's still in use by TxDOT. -208.180.124.100 03:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe that what someone is looking for is the state motto, "Friendship". 'Course Texas (being Texas) has a "state" everything (rock, grass, gemstone, flower, food, small mammal, large mammal, tree, insect, reptile, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseam - you'd think that the legislature would have better things to do).24.174.199.49 20:25, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Handbook of Texas Online
Hi...

As many people editing here will have noticed, the Handbook of Texas Online has a large collection of first-rate encyclopedia articles relating to Texas. A number of individual Wikipedia articles link to these, but there are many more. Wikipedia should draft an email to the Handbook asking for a GFDL license to import as many of them as possible! -- pde 01:51, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Anyone feel up to doing a full-dress "History of Texas" article? Something along the lines of History of California? Surely, WE (Texicans) have as much history as THEY (Californyuns) do. I guess I'll add it to my to-do list (unless one of ya'll wants to beat me to it). ---Michael K. Smith 22:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I would think that is in order, but I'm much too busy to take it on; also not at all expert on the topic. If someone wants to do this, they would do very well to read the article "Appellation Texas Contrôlée" in the August 2004 issue of Harper's. Ostensibly a book review, it's more of a demolition of the lousy scholarship of several books. It's a very strong essay on the origins of Texas in the context both of the history of Latin America and of the expansion of the U.S. -- Jmabel 05:15, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * Maybe we can enlist the help of some Texas middle school / Jr. high school students. Seems like when I was in the seventh or eighth grade at James B. Bonham Jr. High School in Amarillo we had to take a whole year of Texas history and had a complete textbook to go with it. H2O 04:17, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * If that was the only Texas history you got you're lucky. When I went through it was mandated every third year, so 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th grades.  And yankees wonder how Texans get such a big head about the state.  --Laura Scudder | Talk 19:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Is that how we get big heads here in Texas? And all along I thought it was from drinking that well water. ;-) maltmomma 19:13, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Spanish language
I started off the Spanish langauge article for Texas. However, I don't know THAT much Spanish, so I would greatly appreciate it if someone built up the said article. WhisperToMe 01:00, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC) --- Is the spelling Tejas used by Spanish speakers in Texas? And in Mexico?

 * I've lived in Texas my whole life and can't remember ever seeing a spanish text with the word Tejas. I do remember a lot of English uses of it to be cute and ethnic though.  Of course, I only have the amount of Spanish knowledge you're forced to have living in Texas.  Let me defer to something a bit more objective: A quick Google search of "tejas" in spanish pages turns up mostly sites in .es having nothing to do with the state.  A search of "tejas estado" in spanish pages gets 22,000 hits (some history articles citing Tejas as the older name) and "texas estado" 225,000, which I guess classifies Tejas as a much lesser used alternate amongst spanish websites.  Doesn't answer your Texas vs. Mexico question, though. Laura Scudder 01:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

in Mexico, Texas is always write with x but spelled teh-hasin spanish and tec-sas in english.

In Spanish, Texas is normally used, but I think Tejas is used occaisionally to emphasize proper pronunciation.

By the way, I changed the Caddo spelling of the word for "friend." I've talked with Wallace Chafe, a linguist, and he told me that the Caddo word for friend is táysha? (the question mark representing a glottal stop), obviously the word which the Spaniards wrote as Texas or Tejas. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to change it back.

 * Benjamin

 * By the way, the glottal stop is not denoted exactly by a question mark, but rather by ʔ. Whether people will really care is another matter, but I've changed it.  — Laura Scudder | Talk 03:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

In Caddo, either way works (See Kiwat Hasinay Foundation). I just thought some people's computers might not have a font with the glottal stop symbol, so I used the question mark. - Benjamin

 * Well, do it whichever way you think is best. I was a reluctant about adding special characters, but I thought that the question mark might be rather confusing, whereas the other mark might at least be recognized as a special character.  — Laura Scudder | Talk 18:27, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

"national reputation" section
Recently an anonymous user performed a major edit, removing among other things the entire "education" section, and adding a "national reputation" section. This new section makes a number of claims, including that Texans have a lower average IQ, without adding any sources to the article. If anyone has a source for these facts please post them; otherwise I will remove these claims. 204.0.197.190 16:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Present-day Indians
"Native American inhabitants of present-day Texas include Apache, Atakapan, Bidai, Caddo, Comanche, Cherokee, Karankawa, Kiowa, Tonkawa, and Wichita." Who added this? The Karankawa article notes that this group of tribes have been extinct since 1860. The Kiowa are now only in Oklahoma. Strangely, there is no mention of the Alabama, Coushatta, Tigua, or Kickapoo. Holford 21:08, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the rest, but it's true that the Karankawa are extinct. I removed it. . · Katefan0(scribble) 21:13, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * The idea, I believe, is to list the Native American peoples who once populated the area that is now Texas; that is, it is Texas that is present-day, not the inhabitants. Deh 09:49, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You could be right. If so that needs to be made more clear in the text. · Katefan0(scribble) 13:44, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Texas map
The German wikipedia has a Texas map de:Bild:Texas_2002.jpg that I like better than the current one because it shows more geographic features. How do people feel about it? --Laura Scudder | Talk 18:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine. It's from the PCL map collection anyway so eminently usable. BTW, Laura, I like your potato chips =) · Katefan0(scribble) 18:17, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * I prefer the German wiki map too. Easier to see. maltmomma 19:15, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

College pics
Im not sure if putting the pic of U of Houston is a good idea. It's not as prominent as the other schools to be displayed on the Texas page, and it therefore gives the impression that Texas lacks prominent schools. If we display U of H, why not display other 2nd tier schools too? After all, both UTMB-Galveston and UT-SW Med Center are far more prominent than U of H and are nationally recognized.

And besides, aesthetically, the UH pic isn't that much of a great sight either.

Why not just show the very best of Texas?--Zereshk 6 July 2005 13:55 (UTC)

 * The answer is that alumni from those institutions are apparently not as enthusiastic about editing Texas-related articles as UH Collegian . The attention the articles at University of Texas Medical Branch and University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallashave received certainly doesn't give the impression that it's more prominent than University of Houston right now, but I assume that's because medical students don't have as much free time as undergrads.   --Laura Scudder | Talk 6 July 2005 18:24 (UTC)

I think it should be taken off. Put it on the Houston page. If every graduate or student of some university in TX started feeling enthusiastic about their school here, then we wont have much space left on the Texas page pretty soon.

Or at least put in a better picture.--Zereshk 8 July 2005 16:59 (UTC)

OK. MD Anderson can go if the images are about representation (instead of rankings),as User:JCarriker seems to be pointing out. I do however repeat that UH is not a world-class institution like the other 4 schools pictured. However, if UH must stay (for reasons of representation), then I propose that at least we use the Melcher Hall pic on the University of Houston page, since I find it more fitting for a page like Texas.--Zereshk 22:41, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, let's all take a deep breath. UHCollegian, please try not to use words like "greedy," "materialistic," and "ignorant" to describe other editors -- personal attacks are absolutely forbidden here and there is never a justifiable reason for making them (Please read Civility and No personal attacks). As a native Houstonian who has several family members with degrees from UH, I am sympathetic to your wanting UH to be included in the photos of universities, but we don't have University of Dallas, or the satellite University of Texas campuses, some of which are as competitive as UH. It gets into a slippery slope past a certain point where you end up having to include everything. As for MD Anderson, personally I think it should should stay -- it's world-reknowned in its specialty. I am somewhat ambivalent about Baylor. · Katefan0(scribble) 22:51, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

If youre going to talk about representation, then why should there not be even one pic from a Dallas school, or a San Antonio school, or any other city? Why are there 4 schools from Houston? If we're not talking about Ranking, then we should be talking about real representation. However, I still insist that we stick to ranking. It's better for the image of the state. That's why Im proposing a vote. I think it is a fair deal.--Zereshk 00:06, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I hope I dont seem condescending or anything like that by proposing this be put to vote.--Zereshk 23:19, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

 * A vote isn't a bad idea since it is a rather personal debate for some apparently, but the current poll has no set end-date yet, meaning anyone can claim after the fact that someone ended the poll simply because their side was ahead. See Survey guidelines, which recommends allowing a week before the poll to agree on the options, deadline, etc. --Laura Scudder | Talk 00:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Surveys are to help gauge the degree of consensus on an issue, such as this. I'm only following the Resolving disputes recommendations.--Zereshk 01:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Upon looking at the California I wonder if we shouldn't follow suit and move the list to its own article and write up a text summary of the university systems and prominent private institutions. --Laura Scudder | Talk 03:01, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Zereshk, I had no idea about the ongoing negotiations on usertalk pages about this, or I would've ben more circumspect with airing my opinions. I never meant to tank any sort of pending agreement (though I would've preferred those discussions take place on this talk page, where other interested editors could participate in the decision).  I'm much more interested in furthering fruitful negotiations than taking a snap poll, particularly when we pretty much know everybody's opinions on the matter that have weighed in so far.  So I'm going to abstain and encourage more discussion instead.  Actually I think Laurascudder might be onto something with her suggestion above. · Katefan0(scribble) 03:16, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Compromise on College pics
Originally posted here

How about this: include both the top four by the US News Ranking, and top three by population. This would mean that Rice, UT Austin, A&M, SMU (if we can't find a pic, we can use Baylor), and UH would be seen. That should give it the prestige Zereshk wants and the inclusiveness UH Collegian wants. If y'all approve we can move this proposal to Talk:Texas -JCarriker 15:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I would be ok with that system. I didn't realize that there's no picture of SMU.  I'll make sure to take a few next time I'm in Dallas (August), but I'm fine with Baylor, too.  --Laura Scudder | Talk 16:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not ideal, but given the situation it seems the fairest way to go. · Katefan0(scribble) 16:14, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Accept. UH Collegian 23:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The 4/3 solution is fine with me. Though I do wish we would somehow include BCM instead of SMU, since we dont have a med school on the 4/3 solution list (and BCM is the 13th highest ranked medical school Nationally, higher than Cornell, Brown, Vanderbilt, and Mayo). Also, can we switch the UH pic? Melcher Hall (on the University of Houston page) looks much more progressive and fitting than the current cityscape image or the initial image. But then again, that is only my opinion.--Zereshk 02:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with you on Baylor College of Medicine. Since you want the best looking picture for UH, I will provide that instead of the Ezekiel W. Cullen Building or the current half campus with the cityscape. Can you wait a few more weeks so that the new $81 million Science and Engineering Complex could be completed. When it is completed, I will replace that picture representing UH per your request. UH Collegian 03:03, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Good enough for me.--Zereshk 16:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

So do we have an agreement?--Zereshk 10:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I thought the sentence

 * Among Texas schools, the university is ranked No. 1 in 30 of the 37 fields in which it was evaluated

in the edu section is kinda redundant. I mean, the paragraph goes into enough detail about UT-Austin's ranking. Any takers on not deleting the sentence?--Zereshk 20:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Population of cities
I added the top four city populations and (correctly) ranked them accordingly in their respective image captions. (San Antonio is now larger than Dallas.) The estimates come from here.--Zereshk 00:07, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Just thought I'd mention that the 2004 estimates are used for govt work by the federal and state of TX govts (I have already provided example links). It is mentioned even here:. And besides, 2000 was 5 years ago (quite a while I'd say). Those figures are thus obsolete and do not reflect the correct status of TX cities today.

The figures are according to the US Census Bureau:

As for the anon user's last comment about having metro populations instead of city populations put on the page:

The name of the section is called "Important Cities and Towns" NOT "Largest Metropolitan Areas." Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Areas (CMSA's) are not even universally accepted in the US as Metro definitions, because there's also Primary Metropolitan Statistical Areas (PMSA's). We can't just decide to redefine the word "city" because we want Dallas to be bigger than San Antonio. In the U.S., the word "city" refers only to a municiple entity with its own govermental institutions, and replacing city pops with metro pops would set a very bad precedent for articles on these cities. It also creates an enornmous amount of ambiguity, for instance, the Bay Area was listed as "San Francisco" even though SF isn't even the largest city in that metropolitan area.

But then again, in the end, if there is no agreement to be reached at all, I propose we mention both City and Metro pops.--Zereshk 00:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I see no need to mention both. It's completely unnecessary and clogs up the article.  I would support mentioning the MSA's, as that's what people think of when they think of any certain large city. · Katefan0(scribble) 02:16, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry fellas, I followed Zereshk here, and thought I might drop my input if worth anything: I think of Dallas and FW as separate cities. Their downtowns are way too far apart. Otherwise we would have to think of Philly and NYC as one giant city as well. But we dont. Besides, the picture on the Tex page shows downtown Dallas. It's not showing DFW. I think we should stick with the accepted definition of a "city". The 2004 numbers are also more up to date. cheers! --217.218.35.61 03:45, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above annon is suspected to be a sockpuppet of Zereshk by looking at the "user contribution" link. Special:Contributions/217.218.35.61 Please don't do this again. – UH Collegian 00:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Some clarifications about this discussion :
 * The title of the section is Important cities and town, but the text of the section refers to Metropolitan Statistical Areas. (i.e., it begins "Texas has 27 Metropolitan Statistical Areas or MSAs designated by the U.S. Census as of November 2004.", then lists those 27 areas.) I believe that is what the anon was refering to.
 * The term "city" does not always refer only to incorporated municipalities. While that is the basic technical definition of "city", in practice the term is used much more loosely. When people refer to important cities/towns/whatever, they often mean the metropolitan area, not the strict legal entity. People often say that live in "Houston", when in fact they live in the Houston area but outside the city limits. I usually say that I live in "San Antonio", even though I live in the separate incorporated municipality of Terrell Hills. These informal definition are not always consistent. For example, people often refer to the entire Los Angeles metro area as "Los Angeles", but rarely refer to the northeastern megapolis of New York-Philadelphia-etc. as one city.
 * In short, both Zereshk and the anon are being pedantic. (I don't mean that they're both at fault. The anon was rude and obnoxious, and Zereshk acted reasonably.) They are insisting on applying strict technical definitions to popular conceptions; i.e., they are applying strict U.S. Census definitions to the much vaguer and inconsistent popular concepts of "cities". I would argue that adding populations to the city pictures is misleading, and that it implies a false level of precision. I think it would be better to simply leave the pictures in the order they are now in, but omit the population figures.
 * Mateo SA | talk 04:21, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, let's just leave the pictures as it is without the city population figures as they can be misleading for people. UH Collegian 04:51, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the need to mention both MSAs and city populations. I support the listing of MSAs only. When the page unlock, I will put the list of MSAs in "pretty table" format to make the page look neater/cleaner with the 2003 population of each MSA (U.S. Census has not release 2004 figures for MSAs yet). UH Collegian 05:05, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Response to Zereshk (not really about cities, somewhat out of content)
As of November 2003 definition, the U.S. Census no longer uses CMSA and PMSA. All are MSAs now. For example, Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown and Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington are both MSAs, not CMSA. There is no longer a category of PMSA. Just thought I need to correct you on that. Another example would be San Antonio MSA, not CMSA or PMSA. None of that anymore. CMSA and PMSA were used prior to 2000. If you want, I'll provide the link for you so you can go see first hand. I'll give you a more visual example below...

 * Prior to 2000 definition (old, no longer use officially anywhere)
 * Houston–Galveston–Brazoria CMSA
 * Houston PMSA
 * Galveston PMSA
 * Brazoria PMSA

 * Dallas–Fort Worth CMSA
 * Dallas PMSA
 * Fort Worth PMSA

 * As of the November 2003 definition (current)
 * Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown MSA
 * Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington MSA
 * Dallas–Plano–Irving metropolitan division
 * Fort Worth–Arlington metropolitan division

As you can see, since you like to be updated to the latest Census figures and tables, we are no longer on CMSA and PMSA. If you would like further information regarding the two MSAs mentioned above, see: "Houston Metropolitan Area" and "Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex." So if you like the 2004 figures so much, you should also update your other sources as well (eg. no more mentioning of CMSA and PMSA). Also, the new as of 2003 definition introduced "metropolitan division." Only a few MSAs have "metropolitan divisions." Any questions and confusion regarding MSAs and metropolitan divisions, feel free to inquire below. I know everything I just typed is out of topic, but I had to explain and give Zereshk an update since user has mentioned CMSA and PMSA, which are very outdated.

Here is the link to all of the MSAs as of the latest Census definition. http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro-city/List4.txt If it looks too confusing for you, you can look at Template:Texas as it contains 27 MSAs and 2 metropolitan divisions as of the latest definition. In summary of my long post, the U.S. Census no longer uses CMSA and PMSA. UH Collegian 04:40, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

 * What we need is a defintion of what the major cities are. Perhaps the best defintion would be the cities included in the titles of both the 2000 and "new" msa defintions. Any definition that excludes Galveston and Marshall, from the major cities or an important cities and towns section, both of which have been considered major Texas cities for over a century, is not only incorrect— its insulting. On the opposite end of the spectrum, excluding cities like Arlington and Sugar Land, that have recently gained recognition—unlike some "cities" which are nothing more than Dallas and Houston under a different name—have their own identities is equally insulting.- JCarriker 15:27, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Why protect this article?
Why is this article protected. We Texans can take care of ourselves!

Seriously, is there something wrong with the article? Maybe I can help. Snookums 18:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * (It was unprotected shortly after Snookums posted the comments above.) The page was protected after an edit war on July 31 between an anon and several other users about captions for the pictures in the section Important cities and towns. The anon repeatedly deleted the captions and refused to discuss his actions on the talk page. The discussion about the "controversy" is in the section Population of cities above. Mateo SA | talk 22:39, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Article lacks information about cities
The TX article mentions nothing of "cities" in Tex, only Metropolitan areas. What if someone is interested in cities as opposed to Metro areas (like we see on the California page)? Then Wikipedia will not be a source of info for them.

The metro table list should be shortened, and a second table added with correct 2004 "city" populations instead. Othewise Wikipedia will be lacking info about the "cities" of Texas.--147.97.138.210 17:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above anon user is suspected to be a sockpuppet of Zereshk once again by comparing the user's contributions with Zereshk. They both edit the same type of articles. Stop the San Antonio sockpuppets! Special:Contributions/147.97.138.210 For the second time, don't do this again! – UH Collegian 18:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * What is up with the fuckin attitude, UHC? Yeh, I have been following Z around, just like you have. He's right, and youve got a chip on your shoulder. Why dont you stick to your over-glorification of Houston, instead of attacking people?--Nightryder84 19:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above new user is suspected to be a sockpuppet of Zereshk, that account has been created today after my accusations. As of this edit, that account only has 3 edit contributions. Also, user is contributing to the same type of materials. Stop the Zereshk sockpuppets! Of course the only people that call me UHC is Katefan0 and Zereshk. You are not that smart and you can't fool anyone Zereshk. UH Collegian 19:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I dont care who the fuck you think I am. The facts still hold. I was there when you viciously insulted Z for saying UH was not top ranked. Stop acting like a baby.--Nightryder84 19:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * To reiterate my postion I will oppose any list that excludes either Marshall, Galveston, Arlignton, and other like cities. It's a blatant slap in the face for them to be excluded. -JCarriker 19:03, August 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Nightryder84 -- Please stop making personal attacks. You're free to discuss article content all you like, but personal attacks are strictly forbidden.  So don't do it.  Besides which, I have no interest in listening to any of your arguments when they're peppered with personal attacks.  · Katefan0(scribble) 19:40, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * Katefan0 is right, pesonal attacks will only get you blocked not make your case. If you make many more of them I'll likely block you myself. -JCarriker 19:44, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually the personal attacks are against me, and I will take UHC to ArbCom if he doesnt cease to attack me. He is a baby, and I'll hold by that. He accuses me of impersonating Z and calls me a San Antonio fanatic. And if you wish to block me, then fine. Block away. But the TX page still wont be accurate.--Nightryder84 19:54, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I do not wish to block anyone, but if you force me to I will block you temporarily. -JCarriker 20:12, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Despite the above playful diversion created by UHC, the Texas article still continues to lack information about "cities".--Nightryder84 20:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No one has addressed my original idea of using the 2000 and 2004 census defs to compile a list of major cities. If that were the case these are the cities that would appear:

Abilene, Amarillo, Arlington, Austin, Baytown, Beaumont, Brazoria, Brownsville, Bryan, College Station, Corpus Christi, Dallas, Denison, Edinburg, Galveston, Harlingen, Irving, El Paso, Fort Worth, Houston, Killeen, Laredo, Longview, Lubbock, McAllen, Marshall, Midland, Mission, Odessa, Port Arthur, Plano, Round Rock, San Angelo, San Antonio, San Benito, San Marcos, Sherman, Sugar Land, Temple, Texarkana, Tyler, Victoria, Waco, and Wichita Falls.

We could move the cities that have a population over 500,000 to section entitled largest cites in the article and template and bold there name (in the template). I believe these cities would be: Austin, Dallas, El Paso, Fort Worth, Houston, and San Antonio. -JCarriker 20:48, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have no objections of listing both cities of the 1999 and 2004 MSA definitions. While I believe the argument of this started because they (both Zereshk and Nightryder84) want San Antonio to be listed as the second largest city because of a 2004 estimates. For the cities part, if Zereshk and Nightryder84 would look at the MSA table, it has over 30 cities listed. The only difference is that San Antonio is not placed second because San Antonio MSA is the third largest. To Nightryder84, if I am such a fanatic about Houston, I would have put the cities table to support Houston being listed as Number 1, but I did not. Also, the MSA list was not my idea as it was already on the article when I started editing the Texas page. There is no need to have a list of cities since there are over 30 cities represented in the MSA table. The only difference is that that table list the population of the MSA instead of cities. With the MSA table, San Antonio is ranked third and I believe Zereshk and Nightryder84's main concern to switch over to the city table with the 2004 estimates so San Antonio could rank second. I stand my support for the MSA listing only. I am neutral to all Texas cities. If I was not, I would favor the listing of cities so Houston could be first, but I did not and still favor the MSA format, which places the greater Houston area second. – UH Collegian 21:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, using the MSA table is much neater and wont clog up the space since some MSAs have two or three cities as the title. Listing 35-40 cities straight line is pretty much cluttering up the article. Using metropolitan areas and their populations are widely accepted. It gives a grasp of true economic and cultural activities and representations. Listing cities in order by population don't as it crosses cultural and economic lines. – UH Collegian 21:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, Brazoria shouldnt be listed in largest cities since it only has a population of 2,000 people. Yes, that wasn't a typo, they only have 2,000 people. ndash; UH Collegian 21:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * There are a total of 39 cities in the MSA table currently. That is enough representation of cities. How is that not a representation of cities? If we were to list Dallas, Plano, Irving, Arlignton, and Fort Worth separetly, that would be redundant since they all share a cultural and economic center. Also, Plano and Irving are suburbs and people there colloquially claim they live in Dallas. This is why most people on here support the listing of MSA instead of largest cities or important cities as they are subjective. – UH Collegian 21:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Having a list of metro areas incorporate in cities, however, having a list of only cities won't incorporate in metro areas. Also, if we include only a list of cities, it will become an endless opportunity for people to include their hometown (cities or towns, incoporated or unincorporated). It will come to an endless list and clog up the article. Having a list of 25 metro areas designated by the U.S. Census makes sense and no one can argue about their existence. No one can add anymore to the list or delete it. This works since these 25 metro areas are defined by the U.S. government. With the cities, the government doesn't designate which ones are "important". Also, having a list of largest city is also subjective as well. I mean, when will it stop? Having a list of metro areas and population gives people a sense of culture/economic areas and population concentration. – UH Collegian 23:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

In summary, Zereshk and Nightryder84 main interest of this whole discussion is to have San Antonio's picture and rank listed as No. 2, instead of No. 3. This apply to both the table population figures and the order of pictures. What a coincidence that both of them keep on changing Dallas and San Antonio and both share the same mission on Texas of having San Antonio listed as No. 2 and No. 2 of the picture. – UH Collegian 21:14, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Why do you insist on posting erroneous info, UHC? We all know that Dallas is bigger than SA Metro-wise. So what gives? If youre going to do it, then do it right. List BOTH "cities" and "Metro" areas to make the page comprehensive. And use the 2003/2004 figures, which are accepted and used by the state of Texas itself. That's all I'm saying. Geez, you people. Like I insulted your mother or something...

 * And btw, when you use "cities", instead of (or as well as) "Metro Areas", JC's request would be satisfied as well, since Arlington, for example, doesnt fall within Dallas or FW, as far as city definitions are concerned, but stands out as a city in its own right.--147.97.138.210 01:53, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

 Users of the 2004 population Estimates:

The estimates (whicvh many people here are reluctant to use on the Texas pages) are used by more than 500 entities per year. Some of the public agency users include:

 * Texas Governor's Office (for numerous purposes)
 * Texas Legislative Budget Board (for budget planning)
 * Texas Legislative Council (for redistricting planning)
 * Texas Comptroller's Office (as a basis for their estimates for regions)
 * Texas Department of Transportation (for facility, route and highway construction planning)
 * Texas National Guard (to guide their recruiting efforts and estimate future manpower needs)
 * Texas Department of Human Services (to increase accuracy of their service projections)
 * Texas Department of Economic Development
 * Numerous other state agencies and public organizations
 * Numerous County Judges and Other local official (for redistricting and other purposes)

Source: http://txsdc.utsa.edu/tpepp/

--Nightryder84 02:14, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Texas template
Recently, User:Ed g2s keeps on changing the Texas template to a plain version and won't explain why. I need you guys to support me to keep the Texas template that has been active.

This is the Texas template that has been active, before that user erased it, see below:

This is the template that User:Ed g2s (that he made) and has been reverting to, see below:

I want you guys to have some input and decide which one is best for Texas. Like I said, I support the colorful template, but Ed g2s has been reverting it without explaination and has threatened to block me if I revert again to the colorful one. I think the colorful one is more aesthetic looking. Ed g2s doesn't seem to think so and keeps on erasing it to a plain version. Also, he's not even from Texas, he's from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Let's have a vote on this on Template talk:Texas. Thank you for everyone's time. – UH Collegian 19:30, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * He doesn't have to be Texan to have an opinion on the template. I find the red garish. The others could be toned down a little more, and the second template is very subdued and not flashy. Here's a question - what don't you like about the second one? Not what you like about the first one. --Golbez 19:51, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * I like the first one because it contains the three colors of Texas and is aligned center. The first one has larger text at 90%. The second one is too plain and he keeps leaving off a region every time he reverts. I don't like the second one because the text is too small, it is left aligned, and is too plain. The first one is colorful and looks like Texas. The first template incorporates the flag, seal, and state flower of Texas. The second one is plain and cookie cutter. – UH Collegian 20:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

spanish state title
Since Louisiana's de facto French status has the French state name below the English, for the sake of consistency, I did this with Spanish for Texas.

Religion
Some of the numbers just don’t make sense; how can there be 29% Catholic, when there is 34,6 Hispanic (which are almost exclusively Roman Catholic) ? Add to that non -Hispanic Catholic and the number should be at least 50%. --Cigor 02:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The census data is accurate, but the lack of reference on the religion data is really annoying. Anyone here remember where it's from?  — Laura Scudder | Talk 05:21, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure the religion info was added along with the other demographic info by Rambot, which means it also came from census data. · Katefan0(scribble) 14:46, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it is not from the Census (or rather it's not from official Census data). The Census is specifically forbidden from collecting information on religion "on a mandatory basis". This data is probably taken from a table similar to the table "Religious Preference, Church Membership, and Attendance" in the Statistical Abstract of the United States (such as Table 66 of the 2001 version). That table is itself based on data from the Gallup Organization. However, that table is for the U.S. as a whole, not Texas specifically (though the numbers are suspiciously similar). — Mateo SA | talk 15:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Looking at the table again, I think that it is completely inadequate. It is unsourced and not explained. The table does not even say whether the percentages are of the total population of Texas or of the total number of religious people in Texas. I'm going to comment it out until it can be sourced and better explained. — Mateo SA | talk 16:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Probably a good call for the moment. Kudos to Cigor for raising the question, too · Katefan0(scribble) 16:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Current event?
Why is Texas a current event? Shouldn't this apply to one section? G Clark 21:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Centralista's? Zacatecas?
The entry: "The example of the Centralista forces' suppression of dissidents in Zacatecas also inspired fear of the Mexican government." seems really out of place, plus it doesn't strike a bell with me (a native Texan) as something even remotely related to Texas history. "Centralista" is linked but goes nowhere, and the link to Zacatecas results in very uninteresting (from the Texas history perspective) information. Anyone know why the entry is there?
 * Zacatecas rebelled against Santa Ana's policy of enforcing centralization, supported by "Centralistas," over Federalism. Santa Ana brutally suppressed the Zacatecas rebellion, leading many moderate Texans such as Stephen F. Austin, to favor Texas' independence from Mexico. Zacatecas was also in the same military district as Texas, forcing General Cos to have to deal with Zacatecas before Texas—thus buying Texans more time to prepare for an invasion. I hope this answers your questions. -JCarriker 06:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

State slogan
The page currently says that the state slogan was formerly, "Don't mess with Texas." I don't think that's true... that's the slogan for TxDOT's anti-littering campaign, but as far as I know, it has never been the state's slogan, which is generally a little catchphrase meant to attract tourists. "Don't mess with Texas" would probably scare the tourists away. Also, it's not a "former" slogan; it's still in use by TxDOT. -208.180.124.100 03:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm... maybe I'm blind, but I don't see where the article says anything about Don't Mess with Texas being a "former" state slogan. You're right, of course, I just don't see where the article asserts such a thing. · Katefan0(scribble) 03:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Aha! That would be because you just erased it.  Good work! · Katefan0(scribble) 03:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Texas/Archive 1