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Oceanography

Oceanography, also known as oceanology, sea science, ocean science, and marine science, is the scientific study of the oceans. It is an Earth science, which covers a wide range of topics, including ecosystem dynamics; ocean currents, waves, and geophysical fluid dynamics; plate tectonics and seabed geology; and fluxes of various chemical substances and physical properties within the ocean and across its boundaries. These diverse topics reflect multiple disciplines that oceanographers utilize to glean further knowledge of the world ocean, including astronomy, biology, chemistry, geography, geology, hydrology, meteorology and physics. Paleoceanography studies the history of the oceans in the geologic past. An oceanographer is a person who studies many matters concerned with oceans, including marine geology, physics, chemistry, and biology.

Early history
Humans first acquired knowledge of the waves and currents of the seas and oceans in pre-historic times. Observations on tides were recorded by Aristotle and Strabo in 384–322 BC. Early exploration of the oceans was primarily for cartography and mainly limited to its surfaces and of the animals that fishermen brought up in nets, though depth soundings by lead line were taken.

The Portuguese campaign of Atlantic navigation is the earliest example of a systematic scientific large project, sustained over many decades, studying the currents and winds of the Atlantic.

The work of Pedro Nunes (1502–1578) is remembered in the navigation context for the determination of the loxodromic curve: the shortest course between two points on the surface of a sphere represented onto a two-dimensional map. When he published his "Treatise of the Sphere" (1537), mostly a commentated translation of earlier work by others, he included a treatise on geometrical and astronomic methods of navigation. There he states clearly that Portuguese navigations were not an adventurous endeavour:

"nam se fezeram indo a acertar: mas partiam os nossos mareantes muy ensinados e prouidos de estromentos e regras de astrologia e geometria que sam as cousas que os cosmographos ham dadar apercebidas (...) e leuaua cartas muy particularmente rumadas e na ja as de que os antigos vsauam" (were not done by chance: but our seafarers departed well taught and provided with instruments and rules of astrology (astronomy) and geometry which were matters the cosmographers would provide (...) and they took charts with exact routes and no longer those used by the ancient).

His credibility rests on being personally involved in the instruction of pilots and senior seafarers from 1527 onwards by Royal appointment, along with his recognized competence as mathematician and astronomer. The main problem in navigating back from the south of the Canary Islands (or south of Boujdour) by sail alone, is due to the change in the regime of winds and currents: the North Atlantic gyre and the Equatorial counter current will push south along the northwest bulge of Africa, while the uncertain winds where the Northeast trades meet the Southeast trades (the doldrums) leave a sailing ship to the mercy of the currents. Together, prevalent current and wind make northwards progress very difficult or impossible. It was to overcome this problem and clear the passage to India around Africa as a viable maritime trade route, that a systematic plan of exploration was devised by the Portuguese. The return route from regions south of the Canaries became the 'volta do largo' or 'volta do mar'. The 'rediscovery' of the Azores islands in 1427 is merely a reflection of the heightened strategic importance of the islands, now sitting on the return route from the western coast of Africa (sequentially called 'volta de Guiné' and 'volta da Mina'); and the references to the Sargasso Sea (also called at the time 'Mar da Baga'), to the west of the Azores, in 1436, reveals the western extent of the return route. This is necessary, under sail, to make use of the southeasterly and northeasterly winds away from the western coast of Africa, up to the northern latitudes where the westerly winds will bring the seafarers towards the western coasts of Europe.

The secrecy involving the Portuguese navigations, with the death penalty for the leaking of maps and routes, concentrated all sensitive records in the Royal Archives, completely destroyed by the Lisbon earthquake of 1775. However, the systematic nature of the Portuguese campaign, mapping the currents and winds of the Atlantic, is demonstrated by the understanding of the seasonal variations, with expeditions setting sail at different times of the year taking different routes to take account of seasonal predominate winds. This happens from as early as late 15th century and early 16th: Bartolomeu Dias followed the African coast on his way south in August 1487, while Vasco da Gama would take an open sea route from the latitude of Sierra Leone, spending three months in the open sea of the South Atlantic to profit from the southwards deflection of the southwesterly on the Brazilian side (and the Brazilian current going southward - Gama departed in July 1497); and Pedro Álvares Cabral (departing March 1500) took an even larger arch to the west, from the latitude of Cape Verde, thus avoiding the summer monsoon (which would have blocked the route taken by Gama at the time he set sail). Furthermore, there were systematic expeditions pushing into the western Northern Atlantic (Teive, 1454; Vogado, 1462; Teles, 1474; Ulmo, 1486). The documents relating to the supplying of ships, and the ordering of sun declination tables for the southern Atlantic for as early as 1493–1496, all suggest a well-planned and systematic activity happening during the decade long period between Bartolomeu Dias finding the southern tip of Africa, and Gama's departure; additionally, there are indications of further travels by Bartolomeu Dias in the area. The most significant consequence of this systematic knowledge was the negotiation of the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, moving the line of demarcation 270 leagues to the west (from 100 to 370 leagues west of the Azores), bringing what is now Brazil into the Portuguese area of domination. The knowledge gathered from open sea exploration allowed for the well-documented extended periods of sail without sight of land, not by accident but as pre-determined planned route; for example, 30 days for Bartolomeu Dias culminating on Mossel Bay, the three months Gama spent in the South Atlantic to use the Brazil current (southward), or the 29 days Cabral took from Cape Verde up to landing in Monte Pascoal, Brazil.

The Danish expedition to Arabia 1761–67 can be said to be the world's first oceanographic expedition, as the ship Grønland had on board a group of scientists, including naturalist Peter Forsskål, who was assigned an explicit task by the king, Frederik V, to study and describe the marine life in the open sea, including finding the cause of mareel, or milky seas. For this purpose, the expedition was equipped with nets and scrapers, specifically designed to collect samples from the open waters and the bottom at great depth.

Although Juan Ponce de León in 1513 first identified the Gulf Stream, and the current was well known to mariners, Benjamin Franklin made the first scientific study of it and gave it its name. Franklin measured water temperatures during several Atlantic crossings and correctly explained the Gulf Stream's cause. Franklin and Timothy Folger printed the first map of the Gulf Stream in 1769–1770.

Information on the currents of the Pacific Ocean was gathered by explorers of the late 18th century, including James Cook and Louis Antoine de Bougainville. James Rennell wrote the first scientific textbooks on oceanography, detailing the current flows of the Atlantic and Indian oceans. During a voyage around the Cape of Good Hope in 1777, he mapped "the banks and currents at the Lagullas". He was also the first to understand the nature of the intermittent current near the Isles of Scilly, (now known as Rennell's Current). The tides and currents of the ocean are distinct. Tides are the rise and fall of sea levels created by the combination of the gravitational forces of the Moon along with the Sun (the Sun just in a much lesser extent) and are also caused by the Earth and Moon orbiting each other. An ocean current is a continuous, directed movement of seawater generated by a number of forces acting upon the water, including wind, the Coriolis effect, breaking waves, cabbeling, and temperature and salinity differences.

Sir James Clark Ross took the first modern sounding in deep sea in 1840, and Charles Darwin published a paper on reefs and the formation of atolls as a result of the second voyage of HMS Beagle in 1831–1836. Robert FitzRoy published a four-volume report of Beagle's three voyages. In 1841–1842 Edward Forbes undertook dredging in the Aegean Sea that founded marine ecology.

The first superintendent of the United States Naval Observatory (1842–1861), Matthew Fontaine Maury devoted his time to the study of marine meteorology, navigation, and charting prevailing winds and currents. His 1855 textbook Physical Geography of the Sea was one of the first comprehensive oceanography studies. Many nations sent oceanographic observations to Maury at the Naval Observatory, where he and his colleagues evaluated the information and distributed the results worldwide.

Modern oceanography
Knowledge of the oceans remained confined to the topmost few fathoms of the water and a small amount of the bottom, mainly in shallow areas. Almost nothing was known of the ocean depths. The British Royal Navy's efforts to chart all of the world's coastlines in the mid-19th century reinforced the vague idea that most of the ocean was very deep, although little more was known. As exploration ignited both popular and scientific interest in the polar regions and Africa, so too did the mysteries of the unexplored oceans.

The seminal event in the founding of the modern science of oceanography was the 1872–1876  Challenger expedition. As the first true oceanographic cruise, this expedition laid the groundwork for an entire academic and research discipline. In response to a recommendation from the Royal Society, the British Government announced in 1871 an expedition to explore world's oceans and conduct appropriate scientific investigation. Charles Wyville Thomson and Sir John Murray launched the Challenger expedition. HMS Challenger (1858), leased from the Royal Navy, was modified for scientific work and equipped with separate laboratories for natural history and chemistry. Under the scientific supervision of Thomson, Challenger travelled nearly 70000 nmi surveying and exploring. On her journey circumnavigating the globe, 492 deep sea soundings, 133 bottom dredges, 151 open water trawls and 263 serial water temperature observations were taken. Around 4,700 new species of marine life were discovered. The result was the Report Of The Scientific Results of the Exploring Voyage of H.M.S. Challenger during the years 1873–76. Murray, who supervised the publication, described the report as "the greatest advance in the knowledge of our planet since the celebrated discoveries of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries". He went on to found the academic discipline of oceanography at the University of Edinburgh, which remained the centre for oceanographic research well into the 20th century. Murray was the first to study marine trenches and in particular the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and map the sedimentary deposits in the oceans. He tried to map out the world's ocean currents based on salinity and temperature observations, and was the first to correctly understand the nature of coral reef development.

In the late 19th century, other Western nations also sent out scientific expeditions (as did private individuals and institutions). The first purpose-built oceanographic ship, Albatros, was built in 1882. In 1893, Fridtjof Nansen allowed his ship, Fram, to be frozen in the Arctic ice. This enabled him to obtain oceanographic, meteorological and astronomical data at a stationary spot over an extended period. In 1881 the geographer John Francon Williams published a seminal book, Geography of the Oceans. Between 1907 and 1911 Otto Krümmel published the Handbuch der Ozeanographie, which became influential in awakening public interest in oceanography. The four-month 1910 North Atlantic expedition headed by John Murray and Johan Hjort was the most ambitious research oceanographic and marine zoological project ever mounted until then, and led to the classic 1912 book The Depths of the Ocean.

The first acoustic measurement of sea depth was made in 1914. Between 1925 and 1927 the "Meteor" expedition gathered 70,000 ocean depth measurements using an echo sounder, surveying the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

In 1934, Easter Ellen Cupp, the first woman to have earned a PhD (at Scripps) in the United States, completed a major work on diatoms that remained the standard taxonomy in the field until well after her death in 1999. In 1940, Cupp was let go from her position at Scripps. Sverdrup specifically commended Cupp as a conscientious and industrious worker and commented that his decision was no reflection on her ability as a scientist. Sverdrup used the instructor billet vacated by Cupp to employ Marston Sargent, a biologist studying marine algae, which was not a new research program at Scripps. Financial pressures did not prevent Sverdrup from retaining the services of two other young post-doctoral students, Walter Munk and Roger Revelle. Cupp's partner, Dorothy Rosenbury, found her a position teaching high school, where she remained for the rest of her career. (Russell, 2000)

Sverdrup, Johnson and Fleming published The Oceans in 1942, which was a major landmark. The Sea (in three volumes, covering physical oceanography, seawater and geology) edited by M.N. Hill was published in 1962, while Rhodes Fairbridge's Encyclopedia of Oceanography was published in 1966.

The Great Global Rift, running along the Mid Atlantic Ridge, was discovered by Maurice Ewing and Bruce Heezen in 1953 and mapped by Heezen and Marie Tharp using bathymetric data; in 1954 a mountain range under the Arctic Ocean was found by the Arctic Institute of the USSR. The theory of seafloor spreading was developed in 1960 by Harry Hammond Hess. The Ocean Drilling Program started in 1966. Deep-sea vents were discovered in 1977 by Jack Corliss and Robert Ballard in the submersible DSV Alvin.

In the 1950s, Auguste Piccard invented the bathyscaphe and used the bathyscaphe BATHYSCAPHE Trieste to investigate the ocean's depths. The United States nuclear submarine USS Nautilus (SSN-571) made the first journey under the ice to the North Pole in 1958. In 1962 the FLIP (Floating Instrument Platform), a 355 ft spar buoy, was first deployed.

In 1968, Tanya Atwater led the first all-woman oceanographic expedition. Until that time, gender policies restricted women oceanographers from participating in voyages to a significant extent.

From the 1970s, there has been much emphasis on the application of large scale computers to oceanography to allow numerical predictions of ocean conditions and as a part of overall environmental change prediction. Early techniques included analog computers (such as the Ishiguro Storm Surge Computer) generally now replaced by numerical methods (e.g. SLOSH.) An oceanographic buoy array was established in the Pacific to allow prediction of El Niño events.

1990 saw the start of the World Ocean Circulation Experiment (WOCE) which continued until 2002. Geosat seafloor mapping data became available in 1995.

Study of the oceans is critical to understanding shifts in Earth's energy balance along with related global and regional changes in climate, the biosphere and biogeochemistry. The atmosphere and ocean are linked because of evaporation and precipitation as well as thermal flux (and solar insolation). Recent studies have advanced knowledge on ocean acidification, ocean heat content, ocean currents, sea level rise, the oceanic carbon cycle, the water cycle, Arctic sea ice decline, coral bleaching, marine heatwaves, extreme weather, coastal erosion and many other phenomena in regards to ongoing climate change and climate feedbacks.

In general, understanding the world ocean through further scientific study enables better stewardship and sustainable utilization of Earth's resources. The Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission reports that 1.7% of the total national research expenditure of its members is focused on ocean science.

Branches
The study of oceanography is divided into these five branches:

Biological oceanography
Biological oceanography investigates the ecology and biology of marine organisms in the context of the physical, chemical and geological characteristics of their ocean environment.

Chemical oceanography
Chemical oceanography is the study of the chemistry of the ocean. Whereas chemical oceanography is primarily occupied with the study and understanding of seawater properties and its changes, ocean chemistry focuses primarily on the geochemical cycles. The following is a central topic investigated by chemical oceanography.

Ocean acidification
Ocean acidification describes the decrease in ocean pH that is caused by anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions into the atmosphere. Seawater is slightly alkaline and had a preindustrial pH of about 8.2. More recently, anthropogenic activities have steadily increased the carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere; about 30–40% of the added CO2 is absorbed by the oceans, forming carbonic acid and lowering the pH (now below 8.1 ) through ocean acidification. The pH is expected to reach 7.7 by the year 2100.

An important element for the skeletons of marine animals is calcium, but calcium carbonate becomes more soluble with pressure, so carbonate shells and skeletons dissolve below the carbonate compensation depth. Calcium carbonate becomes more soluble at lower pH, so ocean acidification is likely to affect marine organisms with calcareous shells, such as oysters, clams, sea urchins and corals, and the carbonate compensation depth will rise closer to the sea surface. Affected planktonic organisms will include pteropods, coccolithophorids and foraminifera, all important in the food chain. In tropical regions, corals are likely to be severely affected as they become less able to build their calcium carbonate skeletons, in turn adversely impacting other reef dwellers.

The current rate of ocean chemistry change seems to be unprecedented in Earth's geological history, making it unclear how well marine ecosystems will adapt to the shifting conditions of the near future. Of particular concern is the manner in which the combination of acidification with the expected additional stressors of higher ocean temperatures and lower oxygen levels will impact the seas.

Geological oceanography
Geological oceanography is the study of the geology of the ocean floor including plate tectonics and paleoceanography.

Physical oceanography
Physical oceanography studies the ocean's physical attributes including temperature-salinity structure, mixing, surface waves, internal waves, surface tides, internal tides, and currents. The following are central topics investigated by physical oceanography.

Ocean currents
Since the early ocean expeditions in oceanography, a major interest was the study of ocean currents and temperature measurements. The tides, the Coriolis effect, changes in direction and strength of wind, salinity, and temperature are the main factors determining ocean currents. The thermohaline circulation (THC) (thermo- referring to temperature and -haline referring to salt content) connects the ocean basins and is primarily dependent on the density of sea water. It is becoming more common to refer to this system as the 'meridional overturning circulation' because it more accurately accounts for other driving factors beyond temperature and salinity.
 * Examples of sustained currents are the Gulf Stream and the Kuroshio Current which are wind-driven western boundary currents.

Ocean heat content

Oceanic heat content (OHC) refers to the extra heat stored in the ocean from changes in Earth's energy balance. The increase in the ocean heat play an important role in sea level rise, because of thermal expansion. Ocean warming accounts for 90% of the energy accumulation associated with global warming since 1971.

Paleoceanography
Paleoceanography is the study of the history of the oceans in the geologic past with regard to circulation, chemistry, biology, geology and patterns of sedimentation and biological productivity. Paleoceanographic studies using environment models and different proxies enable the scientific community to assess the role of the oceanic processes in the global climate by the reconstruction of past climate at various intervals. Paleoceanographic research is also intimately tied to palaeoclimatology.

Oceanographic institutions

The earliest international organizations of oceanography were founded at the turn of the 20th century, starting with the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea created in 1902, followed in 1919 by the Mediterranean Science Commission. Marine research institutes were already in existence, starting with the Stazione Zoologica Anton Dohrn in Naples, Italy (1872), the Biological Station of Roscoff, France (1876), the Arago Laboratory in Banyuls-sur-mer, France (1882), the Laboratory of the Marine Biological Association in Plymouth, UK (1884), the Norwegian Institute for Marine Research in Bergen, Norway (1900), the Laboratory für internationale Meeresforschung, Kiel, Germany (1902). On the other side of the Atlantic, the Scripps Institution of Oceanography was founded in 1903, followed by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in 1930, the Virginia Institute of Marine Science in 1938, the Lamont–Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University in 1949, and later the School of Oceanography at University of Washington. In Australia, the Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS), established in 1972 soon became a key player in marine tropical research.

In 1921 the International Hydrographic Bureau, called since 1970 the International Hydrographic Organization, was established to develop hydrographic and nautical charting standards.

Sources and further reading

 * Boling Guo, Daiwen Huang. Infinite-Dimensional Dynamical Systems in Atmospheric and Oceanic Science, 2014, World Scientific Publishing, ISBN 978-981-4590-37-2. Sample Chapter
 * Hamblin, Jacob Darwin (2005) Oceanographers and the Cold War: Disciples of Marine Science. University of Washington Press. ISBN 978-0-295-98482-7
 * Lang, Michael A., Ian G. Macintyre, and Klaus Rützler, eds. Proceedings of the Smithsonian Marine Science Symposium. Smithsonian Contributions to the Marine Sciences, no. 38. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Scholarly Press (2009)
 * Roorda, Eric Paul, ed. The Ocean Reader: History, Culture, Politics (Duke University Press, 2020) 523 pp. online review
 * Steele, J., K. Turekian and S. Thorpe. (2001). Encyclopedia of Ocean Sciences. San Diego: Academic Press. (6 vols.) ISBN 0-12-227430-X
 * Sverdrup, Keith A., Duxbury, Alyn C., Duxbury, Alison B. (2006). Fundamentals of Oceanography, McGraw-Hill, ISBN 0-07-282678-9
 * Russell, Joellen Louise. Easter Ellen Cupp, 2000, Regents of the University of California.

title: Oceanography


text:
Talk:Oceanography

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SienaSujitno.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Telegraphic Plateau"
I've added a tag on the statement "The first successful laying of transatlantic telegraph cable in August 1858 confirmed the presence of an underwater "telegraphic plateau" mid-ocean ridge". I've just read an article in the September 2012 issue of Hydro International called "The Myth of the Telegraphic Plateau". According to this, the Telegraphic Plateau was a supposed plateau stretching from Newfoundland to Ireland (so named because it was supposedly very smooth and flat, and so suitible for laying cables across). However, such a feature does not exist as such, and was based on misinterpretation of limited data (and ignoring contradictory data) from surveys across the Mid Atlantic Ridge. The MAR itself is a complely different shape, and (according to Mid-Atlantic_Ridge was not discovered until 1925. This will probably need changing/rewording, although someone more knowledgable of the subject probably should have some input. (I came here looking for info on the Telegraphic Plteau, and this seems to be the only mention in Wikipedia). Wardog (talk) 14:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I removed it, it belongs into continental shelves, but still would require proper sourcing. Prokaryotes (talk) 13:20, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Check
Please everyone, check my revision on Oceanography article so that i knew, is it wrong or not? Dreamfayth (talk) 05:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Cit Notice
Can we remove the 2008 cit notice from this Wikipedia article now? The key content has been updated considerably since then. Also it is not clear what needs attention atm. Prokaryotes (talk) 03:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

 * I don't think so. Many claims are uncited, indeed whole paragraphs have no visible means of support. In the early days of Wikipedia, articles were often wholly uncited or relied only on general references at the end, making it impossible to tell which claimed fact came from which source. Since it is now policy to have a reference for each claim that could be challenged (not easy to tell that apart from each and every claim, since a challenge is possible for almost anything), the article needs many more citations than it now has. If you'd like tags added, that will be easy - they can go on every unreffed paragraph and claim. But it would look untidy. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, hmm i guess someone has to do a lot of googling then and needs luck with all these antique sourcing. Though i rather have the cit notice error message than tags which sabotage reading accessibility :) Prokaryotes (talk) 08:05, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * We can make use of sources at Sea and each of the 'main' articles (not as in Spanish Main, though it does seem appropriate to the topic), so Signor Google ;-} is not the only help at hand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Peacock
I trimmed some peacock about a book called The Geography of the Oceans by John Francon Williams. I can't find evidence in Google Scholar suggesting the work had significant influence. --Epipelagic (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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I have just modified 4 external links on Oceanography. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130528123837/http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/public/JohnMurray.html to http://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/public/JohnMurray.html
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Aims and objective Oceanography
Hello Wikipedia, Objectives of Oceanography

The main objective of the course is to introduce students to basic concepts of Oceanography. The main aim of the course is to understanding the chemical, physical, geological and biological processes which act on the oceans surface and to recognized the submarine forms, the seawater composition and properties.

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title: Talk:Oceanography


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Talk:Drug policy of the Netherlands

Policy of tolerance
Gedoogbeleid refers to more than just drugs. it means "policy of tolerance"

Zero-tolerance policy source
"However, such zero-tolerance policy at dance parties are now becoming common in the Netherlands and are even stricter in cities like Arnhem."

Source on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.46.102 (talk) 13:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

History
Yeah! When did the Netherlands become a drug liberal country? --212.247.27.193 21:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In an attempt to answer your question, I'll relay the story as it was taught at the Dutch college for police senior officers during the seventies: During the sixties, when Amsterdam was the only capital in Europe that tolerated the so-called hippies who travelled through Europe, drugs started flooding Amsterdam and the drugs mafia got rich and well-organized long before the police understood what was happening. You see, during those days most police chiefs were elderly, conservative, Christian men and they had no idea what drugs were all about. A certain police chief realized police work against drugs had started way too late, and he realized the war against drugs could not be won on all fronts at the same time. Though he himself was strongly opposed to drugs, he started working on a half solution: tolerating so-called soft drugs under certain guidelines, and concentrating police work on the fight against hard drugs. After a long, hard struggle with the rest of the police force and the political world, his logic and pragmatism eventually won over enough police chiefs and decision makers. So, possibly contrary to popular belief, the tolerance line was not started as a result of feelings of tolerance but due to a sad realization, and at the core was about police work - not about political views. As written, this is what we were taught. I have no references to back it up with, and will abstain from trying to write a history section. A history section is badly needed though. Wurdnurd (talk) 12:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

+ 1 that a history section is badly needed! --Ronja R (talk) 12:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Implications of policy on drugs use statistics
Cannabis use in the Netherlands jumped 300% between 1984 (when coffee shops became abundant) and 1996. The rate in 1984 was 15% of 18-20 year olds; in 1996 it was 44%, according to MacCoun and Reuter (who themselves are not against soft cannabis policies).

As the coffee shops boomed between 1984 and 1996, marijuana use among Dutch youths aged 18 to 25 leapt by well over 200 percent. (source: Larry Collins, Foreign Affairs, "Holland's Half-Baked Drug Experiment," 1999)

There are no proper citations to back these statistics. The reporting is also clumsy at best case. "rate in 1984" refers to the rate of what? One time use? Use in the last month?. The Larry Collins (1999) article does not cite any sources for the statistics produced. Since it is clearly written from a prohibitionist point of view, it should be used for the purpose of reporting that perspective, but the use of its flawed statistics as a general truth is certainly unacceptable.

--Orionorbit 15:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: hard/soft distinction
The lines "Large suppliers tend to be criminals motivated by profit who do not make the distinction between hard and soft drugs. Hence, the soft drug policy, by failing to address the issue of supply, has made the Netherlands the main centre for hard drug trafficking in Europe." edge rather close to editorializing. A reference to some stats proving they're "the main centre for hard drug trafficking" and a removal of the line about "the issue of supply" would correct this, if someone has access to statistics on the matter. --67.140.125.122 00:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, the city of Rotterdam is the biggest seaport in the world. Even if the Netherlands were the main centre for hard drug trafficking in Europe (I don't find that hard to believe), then still the causality between the Dutch drug policy and that fact needs to be proven.SQB 10:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Treaties
Isn't the Netherlands party to some international treaties which forbid it to legalize cannabis? If yes, then the official policy of toleration of an otherwise illegal practice (as currently practiced) seems to be the most that they are allowed to do. --AxelBoldt

Correct. There are international treaties in place that prevent most countries from legalising the drug. If http://www.smokedot.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/7/2/35918/10894 is to be belived I think it was due to pressure put on countries by the USA. However other sources (very vauge now) pointed to it being raised at the UN/League of Nations by Pakistan?

Alex

The Dutch government is indeed using the UN treaties as an argument against full legalisation. I still think this is hypocrisy though (both on the side of the international community and on the side of the Netherlands). Some argue BTW that the international treaties are less strict in reality than the way in which they are implemented in most countries. For instance, the "mother of all narcotic drugs treaties", the 1961 UN Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs (http://www.incb.org/e/conv/), leaves room for countries to set up a national agency for the production and sale of narcotic substances (both hard and soft drugs) if it thinks this is "the most suitable measure [...] for protecting the public health and welfare and preventing the diversion of drugs into the illicit traffic". -- Herman

I was reading that also today, but the 1988 treaty seems to contain harsher language and requires prohibiting production and sale. Or do I read it wrong? A link is on the drug page. --AxelBoldt

Well, it is clear of course that this is the intention of the International Narcotics Control Board and the UN Treaties that created it. The article 22 I refered to is only what a few creative people think might be a way out ;) but the best thing (from a legalisation viewpoint) would still be to abolish the Single Convention altogether. According to an article on the history of the Dutch policy I found on http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/cohen.case.html, trying to change the UN Single Convention was indeed suggested to the Dutch government when it adopted the tolerance policy in the early seventies, but ignoring the strictest parts of the Convention turned out to be easier. Interestingly, the Dutch government did consider decriminalising cannabis altogether at that time, but did the reverse instead (increasing maximum penalties) because of pressure from the Ministry of Economic Affairs. Arab countries were boycotting the Netherlands at that time because of its support for Israel in the Yom Kippur war, and it was feared that neighbouring countries from which the Netherlands now depended would also cut down their oil supply.

The Netherlands also postponed signing the Vienna 1971 Psychotropic Substances Convention until the spring 1993. -- Herman

Hey, a netherlands citizen here... sounds like someone is jealous...

 * It is legal to hurt yourself even if it is harmful to society; however you remain liable for the consequences of your actions.

That sentence doesn't parse too well. It implies that hurting one's self is harmful to society and then opposes that to being liable for consequences? Confusing run-on sentences... I'd ask the author but it seems it was added by an anonymous (from 194.134.189.73). --Shallot 20:38, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That statement makes perfect sense to me. Let's say that you cut off your own arm. Perfectly legal, if stupid. But society has to pay for the ambulance and the hospital bill, and you'll use blood donated by people to the Red Cross that could be going to other patients. Obviously, your bad personal choice takes a cost on society. Although what you have done is legal, there are consequences that you will incur that the governemnt should not have to help you with. Besides use of an arm, you will also pay higher health insurance because you are a higher risk to them.

Sorry for the unorthodox example, but I think it illustrates the point.

Fatality figures
When the article says "The number of drug-related deaths in the country remains the lowest in Europe", is that absolute or per capita? Tualha 02:24, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * What you're saying: "The number of drug-related deaths in the country remains the lowest in Europe" is untrue. The dutch have always been good at hiding stuff. This is a perfect example. Because the dutch are not fighting the use of drugs, they also don't have a good system of registering deaths caused by drugs. They're mixing up the numbers on drugs related deaths on purpose as a way to justify their stupid drugs policy. (and I'me from Holland) Wiki213ip 14:10, 30 jun 2005 (CEST) Yeah, 'their stupid drug policy' and you are from Holland.  Tha6t should be 'our stupid drug policy'... Brusegadi 21:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds like you are not from Holland at all Wiki213ip. Stating that we're not fighting the use of drugs is untrue, we're just not fanatically after people that use alcohol, nicotine or cannabis. Drugs like cocaine, heroine & XTC, for example, are highly illegal in Holland. Holland is not a drugs paradise, it's the same here as in most other countries, with the exception that people are allowed to use cannabis in addition to alcohol and nicotine. And even that is not entirely true, because cannabis is still illegal, you can't create a 1000 plant farm for example, people are just not prosecuted if they have small quantities in their possesion.

1 says that drug related deaths are measured by the national bureau of statistics CBS. Apparently, only acute deaths are registered as such (i.e. overdoses).

For every death a death certificate has to be signed, but I don't know what happens with any statistical data that could be or is being harvested from these certificates.

2 suggests that overdoses are considered non-natural deaths, which means a forensic autopsy will be performed, which will lead to more data. I don't know if these data could be collected through some transparent government scheme.

3 claims that in half of the E.U. countries, the percentage of unknown causes of death is unknown itself. In the Netherlands, that percentage is 10; 90% of the causes are known.

As for what Wiki213ip claims, I have no knowledge of any cover-ups, and I am Dutch too. If there is a cover-up, it is certainly not widely know. There is every reason to believe that the numbers our government come up with are accurate.82.92.181.129 00:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Only deaths directly caused by a drug should be recorded as a drug-related death. You definitely want to avoid the ridiculous situation that existed in the US where you could be killed by something totally unrelated, say a satellite falling out of the sky, and that would be recorded as drug-related if you had a drug in your system.

 * Aren't hallucinogenic drugs and drugs like MDMA that are known to be relatively safe also largely ignored by the Netherlands police?

After looking at statistical data provided by EMCDDA, I could not find anything supporting the claim that drug-related deaths (either absolute, or per capita) are the lowest in Europe. However, they appear to be lower than the EU average. I modified the article to reflect this. 151.57.86.169 (talk) 14:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

some info missing
I'm searching for information about the history of drug legalization in the Netherlands and think that the article is missing data about: when did the general movement start and what parties (leftwing, rightwing etc.) where ruling.

psilocybe?
Can someone add information on the legal change around psilocybe mushrooms in the Netherlands? I think they were relabeled as 'hard' in late 2003, what was the motivation around this, etc?

 * There was no legislation before 2003. Sometime in 2003 the active substances psilocine and psilocybine where labeled as hard drugs under the Dutch Opium law. It is therefore illegal to posses, grow or trade any product containing these substances (this includes dried mushrooms). The law makes an exception for fresh mushrooms. They can be used and sold legally, but not grown for commercial purposes. Mushrooms fall under the gedoogbeleid, meaning users of dried mushrooms will not be activly prosecuted. --R.Koot 14:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Shrooooms are considerd harddrugs

Bicycle theft
In a way, the following sentence from this page is really stupid

Most policymakers in the Netherlands believe that if a problem has proved to be unstoppable, it is better to try controlling it instead of continuing to enforce laws that have shown to be unable to stop the problem

Now bicycle theft, as all people from the lowlands know, is rife in their cities. And they'll admit, its pretty much unstoppable

By interpreting the preceding quote in a correct manner I suppose we can now instate a gedoogbeleid for bicycle thieves! So from now on.... Only one bicycle per night lads!

Warped rhetoric is what I call it.

>>It might be stupid, it is however true. Simply catching bike thieves proved not to work, so the society tries to control the problem. Most popular are guarded bike parkings, extremely heavy and expensive bike locks (a 20 euro bike with a 50 euro lock is not uncommon), tagging your zip code on your bike, and a nationwide database with frame numbers of stolen bikes.

If your bike still gets stolen, it's more or less considered as having bad luck. (Just as having bad luck with rain on your day off or having bad luck when catching a flue).

Of course you can report your stolen bike to the police (happens about a million times a year since insurancies demand that), but the police won't do anything about it. Simply because also the police have to admit that it is impossible to track down the person who stole that bike. (Thieves do not tag their names on the crime scene pavement). Since people know that, probaby several millions of stolen bikes are never reported. (Hence: total population is about 16 million)

The only reason why there is no official condone policy for bike theft (as there is for soft drugs), is because using drugs is considered a victimless crime (in a narrow sense). Bike theft is obviously not a victimless crime. Of course, when your bike is stolen, and there accidently happens to be some evidence, the thief wil get prosecuted and sentenced. Usual punishment is a few months in jail, a heavy fine, and/or community service.

 * The argument here is just plain silly; drug use is victimless crime, bicycle theft is not. Narcotics laws are a result of 19th and 20th century vice laws, like alcohol prohibition in the US, not traditional laws safeguarding life and property. 82.176.202.53 (talk) 18:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Political context of Netherlands drug policy
It would be very interesting to me to know more of the domestic political forces at work influencing the course of the Netherlands drug policy, particularly with respect to the fate of coffee houses, which I understand to be shrinking in number. What is driving this? Can anyone provide links to discussion of this in English (het spijt me, mijn Nederlands is te slecht en te langzaam)? -SM 12:14, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Will no one answer my question? -SM 06:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know the exact details, but it has a lot to do with the conservative forces in the current government (mainly the Christian Democrats, CDA) led by Minister Donner. They want to reduce the number of coffeeshops, while most mayors (especially of Maastricht, and also in Utrecht and Amsterdam) want to keep most of them alive. 80.56.212.218 03:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Use of the four tildas
If you add to this talk page, please use the four tildas that will be replaced with your name and the time of your posting. Some entries only become clear to be from two different persons after reading a whole section.

Also, neither the main page nor this talk page are intended to share your views on Dutch narcotics policy. The main page actually quite well represents an overview of this policy from a neutral point of view. However, the section that describes reported successes of the policy needs references, comparison with European averages, etc.

Regarding the comparison with bike theft, that doesn't make sense at all. You'd be doing that from your own point of view - which is that use of 'soft drugs' is a crime - and this is not the Dutch policy. And as said, it's a victimless crime. I suffer financial disadvantage if my bike is stolen; I don't suffer anything at all if someone else smokes marijuana.

As to where the policy is going, that would be speculation and again, that doesn't belong on these pages. Personally, I think that the Dutch government is slowly moving towards a policy of discouraging, followed by stricter regulation. But again, this is speculation. So your question is difficult to answer, unless you start looking at the programmes of political parties, and presume that they will actually stick to them. SeverityOne 21:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Unclear
This article is not clear at all in the attitude of the Netherlands towards this issue. If I understood correctly: -- Procrastinating@ talk2me 10:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC) Well, the legal stuff behind it isn't easy, must Dutch don't understand it completely as well. -All soft drugs are illegal. However, possetion of small amounts (5 grams I believe) is officially unenforced and allowed. -Same goes for coffeeshops, IIRC 500 grams is de maximum. -Import supplies tot the coffee shops is not legal at all indeed, and (more or less) heavyly enforced.
 * Possetion of personal use amount of "soft" drugs is legal or an unenforced crime?
 * possetion of larger amounts in "coffe shops" is legal or unenforced?
 * Import supplies to the coffe shops is NOT legal? making their daily supply unenforced..?

A lot of politicians want to change this legal mess, but in the end they won't. Politicians huh :P

Possetion of any amount of softdrugs is NOT legal in the Netherlands! You may only posses and use canabis in the so called coffeeshops! But when you get caught with a small amount of canabis all you have to do is sign a paper and give your stash to the police. It's even written in some coffeeshops that transportation of canabis is not legal! Consumation MUST take place at the coffeeshop! That's how it really is, please correct it!!!!!
 * That's not true. It's completely legal to buy cannabis and take it home for personal use. It's illegal to use it outside, just like drinking outside, which is illegal too. But it's completely acceptable to bring your cannabis to your own place.

>>>Depends an what you can call "legal". The Dutch Drug Act (opiumwet) is very clear on this. Article 3:

Het is verboden een middel als bedoeld in de bij deze wet behorende lijst II dan wel aangewezen krachtens artikel 3a, vijfde lid:

A. binnen of buiten het grondgebied van Nederland te brengen; B. te telen, te bereiden, te bewerken, te verwerken, te verkopen, af te leveren, te verstrekken of te vervoeren; C. aanwezig te hebben; D. te vervaardigen.

Short English translation:

Prohibited for List II substances (for instance cannabis): A. to smuggle B. to grow, prepare, modify, process, sell, deliver, supply, transport C. to have in hand range D. to make

BUT: the justice department have made some guidelines on what will be procecuted and what will not. However, one has to distinguish the official condone policy and the pracitcal condone policy: Officially, coffee shops are allowd, but carrying a gram of pot is not. In practice, carrying some pot is ok, but the police MAY confiscate it.

give me a break

 * Most policymakers in the Netherlands believe that if a problem has proved to be unstoppable, it is better to try controlling it instead of continuing to enforce laws with mixed results. By comparison, most other countries take the point of view that drugs are bad and must be outlawed, even when such policies fail to eliminate drug use

just a tiny bit of editorializing there, not to mention the weaseal words. this is an encyclopedia for god's sake.

EINZ!

 * I don't think it's that bad. I mean, it's pretty true that drug use is not completely "eliminated" in the US, especially cannabis. I get why some might view this as as slightly POV, but I think it's the most NPOV way I can see of stating the fact that the Netherlands has reacted differently to an inability to "eliminate" certain drugs than other countries have. Also note that while the phrase "most other countries" does cover, well, most other countries, the phrase "even when" does actually leave open the possibility that some of them have effectively "eliminated" drug use, and since no names are named on the "failed to" list, I say it's not all that bad. It's possible there's a better way of putting it that wouldn't have even a vague hint of POV, but I can't think of one myself at the moment. Nonetheless, something close to that (comparing and contrasting the Netherlands policy with other coutnries') is kind of hard to avoid and should be there to begin with. 4.235.0.59 18:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

References?
Okay, so there's a section tagged with the "this section does not cite its references", but there is no clear list of references for the entire page, only a vague list of sources (that the information may or may not have come from). If I knew how to make a "this page does not cite its references" tag thingy, I would, but I don't, so I can't. I would much prefer to see someone add some of those little superscript numbers that link to references, rather than having the page come with a massive disclaimer... but I don't know how to do that either.

In short, this page just needs references for a lot of its information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.101.151.35 (talk) 06:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

On leading producer of amphetamines
I changed that because the source provided placed the Netherlands FAR behind Russia. I mena, the Netherlands had single digits as many of the other countries. In addition, the source mentioned (the page provided) "labs destroyed", which might not be a good proxy to claim that the country is a major exporter given that countries with poor rule of law might export more and have few or even no "labs destroyed." Thus, I decided to revert that change. Brusegadi 22:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

 * "Fig. 106: Origin of amphetamine, 2003-2005 (Information based on 177 mentions on the origin of domestic amphetamine seizures from 38 countries over the 2003-05 period)" on page 131 in the reference puts Netherlands as number one as origin of amphetamine. Dala11a 23:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok. Thats good.  The only thing is that we should keep the sentence very close to what the report says.  I'll make the change and let me know if you agree.  Thanks! Brusegadi 00:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw that you have changed it and it looks good. I thought about mentioning the proxy used for the claim but it would be too much.  The interested reader would probably check it for herself.  Ciao, Brusegadi 00:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Russia?! Are you bloody well serious? Russia has a (somewhat ridiculously) heavy crackdown on all precursors to amphetamines, from everything containing ephedrine/pseudoephedrine to dry iodine and red phosphorous, and even solvents used for extraction in methamphetamine production are banned. Try the States instead, that place is flooded with amphetamines... In the 90's, Russia did suffer from heavy amphetamine use, but the vast majority of it was "kitchen-baked" by users for immediate consumption from medications and chemicals made from various household products, not from black market dealers and not smuggled. Recent urban legends and online sites even mention users using matchbook strikers as a source of iodine - hardly a mass-production method, wouldn't you say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.195.186.12 (talk) 21:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent Developments: stronger cannabis
"The higher levels of the active ingredient in marijuana in Netherlands create a growing opposition against the traditional Dutch view of cannabis as a relatively innocent soft drug." (Reference #8 in article).

"In fact, since the primary health risk of marijuana comes from smoking, higher potency products can be less dangerous because they allow people to achieve the desired effect by inhaling less." (Quoted in an article in marijuana.com.)

1. I have seen reports that the "increase" in cannabis potency of recent years is exaggerated because potency earlier was underreported. Hopefully an encyclopedia can contribute research that fends off bad policy based on false information.

2. If in fact the potency is higher, then "joints" and wide-bowl pipes that promote overdose servings burned hot (most smoking equipment advertised to date) are obsolete and dangerous, not the cannabis. When I was in the Netherlands I noticed that the word "joint" meant a giant spliff made with three (3) rolling papers with tobacco mixed in. Won't do!

What the encyclopedia can do is remind everyone of a basic physics issue: the narrower the diameter of your pipe, the cooler you can burn your herb, wasting less THC and causing less health damage. 1/4 inch (ca. 6 mm) is ideal! The easiest way to make a utensil is with a 6 mm, 1/4" or 6.5 mm. socket wrench with a screen in the hex end and a flexible long, long tube in the square (driver) end.

If all users learn this the "side stream smoke" problem will be reduced to zero and the carbon monoxide problem minimized. With its plethora of shops now legally selling equipment (not always the best kind) the Netherlands can take the lead and revolutionize the smoking procedure in a way that will be widely imitated resulting in (a) worldwide legalization of cannabis and (b) elimination of the 5.3 million deaths a year now attributed to tobacco cigarets (WHO 2003).Tokerdesigner 23:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Statistics from Netherlands
Comparison of statistics is not easy. For example: Netherlands has a lot of drug tourist but they exclude these people from their drug statics when they compare with other countries. Other countries include all kinds of people. The source is only from Netherlands. If you use a source from UN or from other governments you will have a diffrent picture of Netherlands. Dala11a (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Policy principals
The statement about the principals of the policy is wrong. 1. Drug use is a public health issue, not a criminal matter 2. A distinction between hard drugs and soft drugs exists 3. High drug related public expenditure, the highest drug related public expenditure per capita of all countries in EU (139 EUR per capita, 2004) Should be: 1. Drug use is a public health issue first and a criminal matter second. 2. A distinction between hard drugs and soft drugs exists, when looking at the social consequenses and health risks 3. - Delete - Its BS. Because they spend a lot of money on cannabis we should allow it ??? 145.7.182.14 (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

 * The source does not tell if the expenditure is the main cause. I'll say delete. Ssteinberger (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

What sources should be used?
The source "UNODC: SWEDEN’S SUCCESSFUL DRUG POLICY: A REVIEW OF THE EVIDENCE" should be replaced by the standard EMCDDA statistics or more specialized reports on the Netherlands. The report don't discuss the situation in the Netherlands other in comparisons towards Sweden, and it mentions Netherlands very little even then. If I have interpreted the wikipedia policy on sources correct, the way its presently presented constitutes original research, as the source is too off-topic. Even if it brings relevant statistics, there must be better sources on the facts it brings. For example, in the beginning of the article its stated that the Netherlands spend second most (as a percentage of BNP) on drug related issues. Later in the text, one learns that the Netherlands have real problems stemming from drug trafficking and drug tourism. I believe that it would be more correct and more neutral to set the high public expenses in that context rather then presenting it as a key feature of the dutch policy, which the source don't state anyway. Ssteinberger (talk) 17:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
Who is the provider of Netherlands' drugs? I mean, marijuana for exemple must be cultivated at tropical soil, like in Brazil, Colombia or Peru. But in these countries to cultivate drugs is one of the worse crimes.

So, Netherlands' coffeshops import drugs illegaly, right? They just don't care about international laws? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.21.146 (talk) 02:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Most Cannabis is grown in the Netherlands. Some is grown outside, but most inside because that gives higher THC levels. Because production is only legal for a maximum of five plants per person, growers do so in secret in attics, basements, unused parts of greenhouses or houses especially rented for the purpose. The Outdoors varieties, locally known as "nederwiet", grow without any extra light or warmth. Coffee Shops are technicly seen not allowed to buy any weed, so there is no control over where it comes from.

The raw materials for hard drugs are mostly imported. Cocaine comes from Central Europe and is imported by passengers of commercial airlines by means of ingesting quantities packaged in plastics.Nerd66 (talk) 23:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

- "The raw materials for hard drugs are mostly imported. Cocaine comes from Central Europe and is imported by passengers of commercial airlines by means of ingesting quantities packaged in plastics." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.74.192 (talk) 03:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch government does NOT encourage the smuggling or use of Hard Drugs. Nor does it encourage the use of Soft Drugs but that has been giving the needed leeway. Try researching before you make a silly comment please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.148.36.113 (talk) 20:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Copyvio or not?
"The use of drugs in traffic is expressly prohibited. This includes all hard drugs and soft drugs including party drugs like XTC and amphetamine. Drug use can be proven by a blood or urine test which you have an obligation to take if a police officer suspects you of driving while on drugs. The punishment varies from a 3 month prison sentence or a fine of € 4,500,- to possibly a driving ban for a maximum of 5 years (10 years for repeat offenders)."

- European Consumer Centres Network: A word-document-brochure on tourism and driving in the Netherlands.

"The use of drugs in traffic is expressly prohibited. This includes all hard drugs and soft drugs including party drugs like ecstacy and amphetamine. Drug use can be proved by a blood or urine test which you have an obligation to take if a police officer suspects you of driving while on drugs. The punishment varies from a 3 month prison sentence or a fine of € 4,500,- to possibly a driving ban for a maximum of 5 years (10 years for repeat offenders)."

- From latest (but reverted) edit in the main article as of now

They are obviously the same, but Dala11a states that it does not exist any copyright problem with his source as the responsible organisation for this issue and the probable author is funded by the justice department in the Netherlands. Is this true? Steinberger (talk) 14:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Dala11a when he reposted the direct quote: "Copyright, i have asked ECC From: webformulier@hetjl.nl Sö, 2008-06-15, 16:55 "Bericht: Is it allowed to quote your web site in Wikipedia ot course with a reference to t"

 * Why don't you paste the whole of that email here, Dala11a? Steinberger (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Från:  	webformulier@hetjl.nl Datum:   	Sö, 2008-06-15, 16:55 Till:  	xxxxxxxxxxxx Prioritet:  	Normal

Het Juridisch Loket heeft de volgende informatie van u ontvangen:

Geslacht: De heer Naam: xxxxxxxxxxxx Postcode: 11111 E-mail: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bericht: Is it allowed to quote your web site in Wikipedia ot course with a reference to the soruce -Dala11a (talk) 17:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

 * It does not seem to be the Juridical Department in the Netherlands who wrote the bit. Steinberger (talk) 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I have never stated that, I just sent the question to this page . EEC is a part of juridisch loket . "The ECC is funded by the European Commission and the Ministry of Justice and is part of the Legal Service Counter." The question was if it was allowed to quote its webb page.Dala11a (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, you might have done so. But the document is made by the same agency in Austria. Look at the address, it seems like they add the national European consumer organisation for each country, at least they have in there brochures on Poland. Just look at the misspelled headline in the one on Netherlands: "Tourism in France". Steinberger (talk) 20:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Drug use, or illicit drug use?
Seems to me this: should read thus: Or is it a word-for-word quote from something misconceived by EMCDDA? You are a drug user if you take asprin Laurel Bush (talk) 10:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * To prevent drug use and to treat and rehabilitate drug users.
 * To reduce harm to users.
 * To diminish public nuisance by drug users (the disturbance of public order and safety in the neighborhood).
 * To combat the production and trafficking of drugs.
 * To prevent illicit drug use and to treat and rehabilitate illicit drug users.
 * To reduce harm to illicit users.
 * To diminish public nuisance by illicit drug users (the disturbance of public order and safety in the neighborhood).
 * To combat the production and trafficking of illicit drugs.

gedogen
gedogen does not mean to tolerate. the dutch word for toleration is 'tolereren'. it means to permit or condone· Lygophile   has   spoken  12:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Removal of phrase "It is a pragmatic policy."
I removed the above cited phrase for the following reasons:
 * because it is presented as fact and is not a neutral point of view;
 * the reference does not directly refer to the drug policy as "pragmatic" only the attitudes of Dutch policymakers to the problem;
 * it was wikified to "Pragmatism", which is a philosophy and not to what would be synonymous with "practical".Gary Joseph (talk) 10:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Specification of legal and illegal.
This article mentions illegal cannabis and a vague definition of this (such as "one must not grow it for oneself", I reckon). This subject could need some elaboration: The definition of legal cannabis, for instance, is actually completely absent. When is it legal and when is it not? A set of rules, laws, or restrictions could be added, I know they exist. 91.150.226.225 (talk) 22:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Terminology
"...whereby members can buy up to three grammes of hash or weed..."

"hash" and "weed" are slang terms for hashish and marijuana and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Someone with editing powers please delete the slang and insert the appropriate terms.

PCB 10/27/09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.162.10 (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the word "marijuana" (which is a slang term in Mexican Spanish) is not really used in Europe. In the UK or Netherlands, I have only heard American tourists use this term. What you mean is cannabis, or "herbal cannabis" to be precise. 91.85.168.154 (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Reactions to the 2011/2012 changes (drug tourism ban)
I think it should be mentioned that many mayors and coffee shop owners are against the new regulations, as the tourism in general is softly declining and illegal drug trade (between natives and tourists) is becoming a problem. I believe the mayor of Amsterdam claimed he would rather pay fines for not complying with the new laws rather than spend money on crime prevention. 94.170.28.251 (talk) 14:00, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Splitting hairs
In the part about the weed pass it says "this was promptly adopted by several provinces including Maastricht and Eindhoven" However, neither Maastricht nor Eindhoven is a province, they are both cities. 87.208.62.34 (talk) 12:35, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

False information about cultivation of magic mushrooms
The article states that the cultivation of magic mushrooms has recently been made illegal. However this is untrue, there is no law against cultivation of magic mushrooms, and the Dutch smartshops continue to sell everything that is required to cultivate magic mushrooms legally and openly, including fully-colonised fungal growkits. The article should be edited to rectify this inaccuracy--92.236.35.88 (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Hard/Soft Schedules available?
The article talks about these hard and soft drugs but don't really tell which ones are considered to be which. Is the full schedules available somewhere? There are few examples mentioned in government site.LSD is not a hard drug.

Belgium
Please note that Belgium has moved away from the Dutch model and outlawed it entirely again. This page is locked, so I could not update it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.85.187.149 (talk) 03:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Key people in government who push for drug legalization?
Who are the key people in government who push for drug legalization? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.109.141.89 (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Dutch pot
Dutch pot redirects here. This is nuts. It should redirect to Dutch oven, or at the very least be a disambig page. --Ef80 (talk) 13:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Magic mushrooms & smart shops
Magic mushrooms and the shops selling them, called "smart shops" should also be included in the introduction under "soft drugs". 80.187.114.207 (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Drug policy of the Netherlands


text:
User:Williex

Willem Senekal born in South Africa in 1946 of originally French Huguenot descent. (Original family name was Guillaume Senechal). Studied B.Iuris at the Universities of Port Elizabeth and Durban. Also studied archaeology and anthropology at University of Pretoria. Represented South Africa in Foreign Service in the seventies. Open-minded.

title: User:Williex


text:
Northern Province

Northern Province or North Province may refer to:

 * North Province (Cameroon), known as North Region from 2008
 * Far North Province, Cameroon, known as Far North Region from 2008
 * North Kazakhstan Province
 * Northern Province, Rwanda, created January 2006
 * North Province, Maldives
 * North Province, New Caledonia
 * Northern Province, Papua New Guinea, also known as Oro Province (redirects)
 * Northern Province, Sierra Leone
 * Northern Province, Sri Lanka
 * Northern Province (Victoria), a former electorate in the Victorian Legislative Council (Australia)
 * North Province (Western Australia), a former electorate in the Western Australian Legislative Council
 * Northern Province, Zambia
 * Limpopo province, South Africa, formerly known as Northern Province
 * Northern Cape province, South Africa, part of the former Cape Province
 * Uttar Pradesh, India (Hindi: Uttar = North, Pradesh = province/region/state)
 * North Sumatra (Sumatra Utara) - a province in Indonesia
 * North Sulawesi (Sulawesi Utara) - a province in Indonesia
 * North Maluku (Maluku Utara) - a province in Indonesia
 * Province of York, an ecclesiastical province of the Church of England

In fiction, "North Province" may refer to:
 * The predecessor state of North Kingdom in the World of Greyhawk campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game.

title: Northern Province