text:
Talk:Minor scale

Some changes
I intend to make a few ammendements to this article. I thought it best to explain my reasons here and to add that I don't wish to offend anybody by doing so, I'm just building on the work you people have already put onto this page. Naturally I expect you to correct any mistakes I make and if your opinions differ I would appreciate some discussion before or after changes.

My first change will be made to the opening sentence:

"A minor scale in music theory is a diatonic scale with a third scale degree at an interval of a minor third above the tonic."

The problem is that minor scales can be derived from sets of pitch relations other than those of the diatonic scale. The paragraph then mentions the Harmonic Minor scale which is not a diatonic scale, containing, as it does a minor third interval).

I will also mention the Dorian and Phrygian modes which, however infrequently they are used in classical music, are both valid and widely used elsewhere.

Furthermore I would suggest, following a brief introduction to those minor scales which cannot be derived from major scales by modal changes alone (Harmonic and Melodic Minor[ascending form]) creating links to other pages (yet to be authored) which cover the properties of these scales in further detail. For those of you who might think this is overkill allow me to explain my reasoning as follows:

By altering just one note in a scale you can also alter the nature of every possible chord formed containing the altered note. This leads to radically different requirements for the harmonisation of the scale concerned and how a piece or fragment of music might be resolved.

To illustrate this take the Harmonic Minor scale (I choose this partly because it is widely used and hence familiar). By sharpening the 7th of an Aeolian ("Natural Minor") you introduce two sets of chords which are effectively rootless, the Diminished 7th (4 notes and four equally valid roots) or the Augmented triad (with its three roots). Neither of these properties exist in the natural minor (Aeolian mode) or the other minor modes derived from the major scale, the Dorian and Phrygian modes.

Melodic Minor (ascending form i.e. Aeolian #6 and #7 for instance) is again very different from the Aeolian modes. Personally I think it is simpler to regard the Melodic Minor ascending form as a derivative of a Dorian because then you only have to alter one note (=Dorian #7).

I hope that this is acceptable. Feel free to contact me. Andrew F. (talk) 03:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Grammar
"In other words meantone tunings the semitone is not half of a tone, but a somewhat larger interval." This is not an English sentence. (Nor, by the way, does it semantically follow its preceding sentence). Please fix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.201.182 (talk) 02:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Spacing
It would be nice if a consistent format for describing the tonal spacing could be arrived at and stuck to. Looking at the minor scale its defined by notes, "ABCDEFGA", tones, "W,H,W,W,H,W,W,", and semitones .. "(in semitones - 2 1 2 2 1 2 2)" but this descriptive format is not stuck to when describing the melodic minor a paragraph later, other modes, for example the page on the Dorian scale also misses out elements of this format. A unified format (perhaps incorporating 3 or 4 of the possible ways of describing the scale) but always in the same order and style (ie capital letters for W and H in the whole and half tones description) would allow a user to more easily compare scales. Rszemeti (talk) 12:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The major scale is defined in terms of the spacing of its notes

tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitoneAlso known as "Whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half"

This has not yet been done for minor scale. It only says that some notes have been augmented (raised in pitch).

I may be able to work out the spacing of the notes by the sharps and flats used. -- User:Karl Palmen

 * For the Harmonic Scale it is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tonesemitone, semitone User:Rjstott (before adding to minor scale someone else should confirm!)

 * On the Melodic ascending part it is tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone though I've never understood the relevance of why it is different on the way down as scales aren't a general feature of most music!

Thanks for the information and again, I can't understand why it's different on the way down, because I see a scale as a set of notes used for a piece of music.

The harmonic tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, semitone doesn't add up. An octave needs 5 tones and 2 semitones.

The melodic tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone does add up. It has a run of 4 tones and a run of 1 tone and so is not a cyclic shift of major and so I'd expect it to sound different.

A look at Musical mode says this is not true and that minor is

tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone

This is a cycle shift of major. It is identical to major except it starts a tone and a semitone lower. Now I ask Why do Major and Minor Scales sound different?

--User:Karl Palmen

 * Considering just the natural minor for the moment (which has the same notes as the relative major, just permuted) -- it all depends on where your home note (or tonic) is. The pattern of T/S from A upwards to A' in natural A minor is different from the pattern from C upwards to C' in C major. So a melody that treats the respective tonics as the 'home' note will sound different, because of the different pattern of tone gaps. Same notes, different pattern.

 * If you didn't think of the 'wheel' of notes as having a home, and you could choose C or A as starting point at will, or had no idea of "starting point" at all, then there's no difference. Consider playing random notes from the whole piano keyboard from either set - it will sound the same, because they use the same set of notes. It's only human pattern-making that makes the musical structure that makes the difference. --- The Anome

 * I now ask about this pattern making. The answer could go in the tonic page. --- User:Karl Palmen

 * The presence of the leading tone, the sharp version of the 7th scale degree, is essential to establish tonic in the minor mode. It's a mistake to associate the minor mode as used in the common-practice period with the Aeolian church mode because of this. Teaching about the "natural minor" scale is misleading; that's an artificial construct derived (in a kind of back-formation) from the key signature. The key signature does not determine the notes to be used in a piece. Compositions using only the Aeolian notes sound "modal" to our ears and not in the minor mode as composers from Monteverdi to Puccini used it (Vaughan Williams, on the other hand...). There's a very interesting book which addresses this (and other topics) called "Lies my music teacher told me" by Gerald Eskelin. He argues against the "three versions of the minor scale" and argues that only the harmonic minor has any validity. However, this is a minority view and I'm not recommending we present it in Wikipedia. But this may help some of you, and emphasizing the presence of the leading tone for the major V chord may clarify the topic somewhat. Wahoofive 23:04, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

All three of the above sequences are correct. The Harmonic minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone, Melodic minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, and Natural minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone. These are really three different scales. --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 12:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The dark sound of minor keys
In line with User:Karl Palmen's comment, I have a question about this excerpt from the article.

Minor scales are sometimes said to have a more interesting, possibly sadder sound than plain major scales.

I, too, noticed this years ago. To date I have not heard a satisfactory answer as to why this is so. Why is it that transposing a piece to a minor key suddenly makes it sound so gloomy and sullen? Whatever answer we come up with, it'll be an important addition to the article. Surely someone must know? --Ardonik 09:43, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * The minor mode may be considered "more interesting" only because it consists of three scales, natural, melodic, and harmonic, which, treated freely together, provides nine pitches (in C:C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,A,Bb,B), rather than the seven of the major mode (C,D,E,F,G,A,B).
 * Any mention of the minor made as "happier" or "brighter" than the major, as fact, is not neutral. It does deserve a neutralized mention. Pieces in the minor mode are more than capable of being brighter or happier than a piece in major, and vice versus. Specifically, pieces written in major use effects which depend upon the features of the major scale. The leading-tone is one of these features and is used to create a feeling of drive towards the tonic, depriving a piece in major of the leading-tone, absent in the natural minor scale, takes away a great deal of the pieces energy, without replacing it.
 * More generally, see the new article section "Differences between major and minor".
 * Hyacinth 22:20, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding the section. --Ardonik 00:19, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * I copyedited it a bit; if you did some research for the section (I see a "Gjerdingen, 1990"), would you consider adding the full citation/ISBN to a ==References== section at the bottom? I found the reading to be highly advanced and quite daunting, but that's only a reflection of my own ignorance of music theory.  From what I gather, the minor key sounds darker simply because it contains triads not available in the major keys, and because its chromatic range is greater.  Did I get it right?  And if I did, where does the "darkness" come in?  --Ardonik 00:40, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * It might be worth pointing out that a "change in mode" is not a "transposition", (you can't simply transpose from a minor to a major key) and the lightening of mood and sense of completion that is universally experienced by the use of such changes by techniques such as the Picardy third may need mentioning. -- Nunh-huh 00:35, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Really? I've used software (Anvil Studio) with a "transpose" function that shifted notes up by anywhere from one to twelve half-steps; doesn't that change the key?  --Ardonik 00:40, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * It changes the key, but it doesn't change the mode from major to minor or vice versa. Transposition doesn't alter the intervals between notes, which you'd have to do to achieve a change in mode. - Nunh-huh 00:52, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * (Ardonik reads the article.) Oh, okay.  Thanks.  --Ardonik 08:39, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

According to : Hyacinth 02:02, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * "So, when you play two or more notes on an instrument capable of sustained tones, difference tones are produced. The difference tones produced by a perfectly just Dm triad in root position (D F A) are Bb (produced by the D and the F) and F (produced by the F and the A). These difference tones themselves produce another difference tone between them, an even lower Bb. So, when you play a Dm triad in JI, you hear a low Bb - not the ideal bass note for a Dm chord. However, when you play a perfectly tuned D major chord in root position (D F# A), the difference tones converge to produce a low D, two octaves below the root of the chord, which gives a nice sense of "rootedness" and finality."
 * You mean playing a triad causes some sort of eerie aural convergence on a fourth, separate note?! I'm starting to feel that my ignorance of music theory is overwhelming; is there some sort of resource (online or offline) that could provide a layman with an accessible introduction to this field of study?
 * Thanks for both of your answers. --Ardonik 08:39, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * I think you can probably get by without needing to completely understand the foregoing, as it applies to a particular type of tuning that is not often used (these days)... Suffice it to say that the difference tones alluded to are a possible explanation of a phenomenon musicians noticed when "just intonation" was common: that they associated certain keys (e.g. C# minor, F major) with certain moods or feelings, and that transposition altered those feelings. This seems not to be a factor with "equal temperment". - Nunh-huh 22:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I think what this is trying to get at is harmonics and overtones. When a note is played, you don't just hear that one frequency, you hear an infinite (well, not technically, human hearing only goes up to 20,000) number of harmonics.  When you play a C, you also hear the C above that, the G above that, the C above that, the E above that, the G above that, etc.  I guess if you play a chord, all three notes could have the same harmonic, in which case that harmonic will sound louder than all the others.  I think this is what this is trying to say...  I'm not sure. --Sbrools ( talk  .  contribs ) 05:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, the notes in the, say, natural Am scale are C, D, E ,F, G, A, and B, whereas the notes in the C major scale are C, D, E ,F, G, A, and B. So, where does one come up with "The dark sound of minor keys"? --Spud Gun (talk) 15:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The natural Am scale has A as the tonic (central note), while the CM scale has C as the tonic. Double sharp (talk) 13:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. Although I continue to believe strongly that the really most natural of the minor scales is the harmonic minor, which will have the raised seventh degree G-sharp here. Double sharp (talk) 11:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Minor blues scale
There is also a minor blues scale, as heard in such songs as "Why don't you do right?" by Lil Green and many instrumental blues, but I am not competent to do more than point this out on the talk page. Basically the third note is flattened, but I wouldn't dare write about it myself, too ignorant. Ortolan88 01:27, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Check out Jazz scale and Blues scale. That's where such a thing would belong. --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 12:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Natural minor
"A natural minor scale, is a scale without any accidentals in it." This language is confusing at best. The scale of A Minor is the only one for which this is true. Could someone please replace it with a better definition of "natural minor"? Also, shouldn't natural minor be listed before the other types? --LostLeviathan 17:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * An accidental is not just any sharp or flat, but a sharp or flat that's not in the key signature. A# minor has seven sharps in the key signature, but there would be no accidentals in the natural minor scale. —Keenan Pepper 20:36, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

"Naughty Girl"
The following was removed:
 * Note. Since the augmented f-g# interval reminds the Western listener of Arabic or Middle Eastern music, harmonic minor is sometimes used to create an "exotic" effect. As an example, listen to "Naughty Girl" performed by Beyonce.

Earlier the article points out intervals in a scale which remind one of some kind of music, so that seems appropriate. My only question would be is "Naughty Girl" really in harmonic minor? Hyacinth 08:11, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd say "Naughty Girl" is actually in the Phrygian dominant scale. —Keenan Pepper 20:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

D-flat minor
How can we write D-flat minor?? There is no relative major key. Georgia guy 17:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Its relative major is F-flat major. You feel more comfortable with the enharmonic equivalent of C-sharp minor, which has E major as its relative. — Gareth Hughes 17:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Diatonic and chromatic
The article uses the term "diatonic" without adequate explanation. This term, along with "chromatic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! –  Noetica ♬♩ Talk 22:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion
I'm just throwing this out here -- would anyone object to a List of songs in minor key? Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would. The list would be much too long to be useful. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

 * You know, it might not hurt to have a comparison (or two) to listen to. For people who may understand what the article is saying but don't "get" what the difference is in how it actually sounds, maybe it'd be nice for them to hear what a song in a minor key sounds like compared to a song in a major key (preferably like a snippet of two well-known classical songs). Just a thought--I'm not a hardcore wiki discussion person and don't know the ins-and-outs or the plausibility of this like some of you others do. 70.57.113.4 08:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add my site as an external link as I've taken the time to write out every harmonic minor scale with the fingering and notes so could someone please have a look at it for me and give me the go ahead. http://www.learn-piano.org/harmonic-minor-scale.html thank you for your time. Ben

Merge Mohammedan scale
I was unfamiliar with the term, but it does seem recognized on guitar sites on a quick google search. As it's the same as the harmonic minor scale, it seems like it could be merged there (with simply a brief note of the name). Rigadoun (talk) 18:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I've never heard of it, but I'd say do it. If you can, add some information describing in what context this term would be used instead of harmonic minor. - Rainwarrior 04:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I can definitely see why you have suggested this. After reviewing the page, you are indeed correct that Mohammedan and the melodic minor scales are one in the same. I can see no reason why they should not be merged. Perhaps someone might include an explanation, however, as to how the Mohammedan received its name? I am curious to know.

143.207.8.4 11:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Anthony James

 * The Mohammedan Scale article definitely needs to be merged according to Wikipedia policy, as it is no more than a different name for the natural minor scale. There is actually a stronger argument for separate articles on "natural minor scale" "harmonic minor scale" and "melodic minor scale", but these are probably best as sections, so as to best contrast them with each other. 82.21.244.201 12:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The use of the term "Mohammedan scale" to refer to the harmonic minor scale is outdated, just as the word "Mohammedan", referring to a Muslim person, is no longer in use. In Arabic classical music the maqam which was described by European orientalists as the "Mohammedan scale" is called Maqam Nahawand.

In other words (something quite different)
The article currently says:

The C major scale is C D E F G A B C, so the A natural minor scale is A B C D E F G A (A is the 6th scale note of the C major scale).

In other words meantone tunings the semitone is not half of a tone, but a somewhat larger interval.

I don't see how the second statement is rephrasing the first "in other words". I don't think the article says anything at all about temperament before this mention of meantone. Plus, the "in other words" sentence doesn't seem grammatical; "...meantone tunings the semitone is not hald of a tone..", huh? I'd just delete the "in other words" bit, but am not quite confident enough on my music theory. Can someone explain? Pfly 04:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible to improve the explanation of the nature of the descending melodic minor scale
The explanation in the article of how the descending and the ascending melodic minor scale, respectively, is obtained from the harmonic minor scale, is as follows: "either the subtonic is used, or the sixth scale degree is raised". I was much confused by the part "either the subtonic is used" and it was only after a good while that I realised that the descending melodic minor scale contains the exact same notes as the natural melodic minor scale. For clarity, I really think this should be pointed out, and I'm asking someone with a better grasp of the theory than I have!

 * Thanks for your question or concern. Please sign your posts on talk pages per Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth (talk) 02:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Article is more confusing than it should be
In my opinion, this is one of those articles that has WAY too many cross-references to be useful. I have a very strong music background, including some training in formal theory, but even I had a hard time with terms like "subdominant," "common practice period," "subtonic," etc., so I can only imagine how a person with little training might feel if he/she were to come to this article (as I did) for a basic explanation of the harmonic minor scale (with which I was already familiar). While I understand that it isn't desirable to re-explain every term of art that appears on every page where such a term is used, clicking back and forth between the article and the pages for the various terms gets confusing and frustrating (particularly when the linked pages also contain terms of art that require explanation). Even where parentheticals are used (in this case, e.g., with the term "dominant"), the parentheticals contain terms of art. As it is now, the article reads like something out of a scholarly journal. I think it might be helpful if the first paragraphs of each section were written in more of a "plain English" style. I could do this, but I don't feel confident enough in my formal theory knowledge to do so.

Also, there are a number of things like the following that just don't make sense: "Thus, for purposes of melody, either the subtonic is used, or the sixth scale degree is raised; either way, there is a whole step between these two scale degrees, considered more conducive to smooth melody writing." WHICH two scale degrees? And considered by whom to be more conducisve to smooth melody writing? Zddoodah (talk) 16:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

 * You have some great concerns, including Explain jargon. However, "subdominant" is not a rare term and What Wikipedia is not. Hyacinth (talk) 00:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm just surfing, this rainy Sat. - reading music theory for pleasure ;<} and I was noticing how very well done this article is. I think it's quite clear, if not for newbies. I was thinking the editors could apply some of this to major scale, which could use some work, IMO - I notice Hyacinth is active on both, more or less. ALL of the music theory articles are not for the faint of heart....Jjdon (talk) 20:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested audio
I have added some audio examples to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 06:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Keys, Circle of Fifths
link that shows the circle of fifths quite well: http://www.i-love-guitar.com/circle-of-5ths.html I am writing a book that explains all of these minor scale discrepancies, stay tuned! Microcosmmm (talk) 06:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence
"A minor scale in music theory is a diatonic scale with a third scale degree at an interval of a minor third above the tonic." This sentence is incomprehensible to almost anyone. I've attended music school and know my theory, so after reading it three times I was able to make sense of it. I strikes me as written by someone who wants you to know that they are a master of music theory, more than they want you to know what a minor scale is. Someone who doesn't know what a minor scale is, clearly doesn't know much about music theory and most likely will not want to read anything more after failing to understand the first sentence. I won't try to rewrite it but here is an example of something someone without extensive knowledge of music theory might understand "A minor scale is the equivalent of starting on the sixth note of its relative major scale and then continuing until you reach that note again, one octave higher. For example, if F major contains the notes F G A Bb C D E 'F' then its relative minor scale would be D minor which contains the same notes but starts and ends on D (D E F G A Bb C 'D')." I understand that it goes on to explain that, but if they don't know what a minor scale is, how likely is it that they will know what the Aeolian mode is? Saying that makes sense only if you are explaining music theory to someone who already knows music theory, which is illogical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.72.51 (talk) 02:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

 * That depends on the term relative major, which only makes sense once you already know what the major and minor scales are. Also, it's a bit of a circular definition. — Gwalla | Talk 16:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what is so hard to understand nor do I see how the sentence, "A minor scale in music theory is a diatonic scale with a third scale degree at an interval of a minor third above the tonic," is boasting. Links are provided to diatonic scale, scale degree, and minor third if one needs to read about those terms/subjects. It is certainly better than a circular definition and nothing. Hyacinth (talk) 01:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

References...
Might just be me, but where is all this information coming from? I would be whacking a great big [citation needed] on the whole article...? What's the go with that? Sorry that was poorly posed, I guess my real question is... is all the information coming from that one book Studies on the Origin of Harmonic Tonality? 124.170.186.64 (talk) 08:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

 * By "you would be" do you mean to ask if you should? By what's the go with that do you mean to ask what the proper procedure is? Hyacinth (talk) 16:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Frequency Ratios People!!!
THIS ARTICLE NEEDS A FREQUENCE PROPORTION RUNDOWN, AS IS PRESENT ON THE MAJOR SCALE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.165.211.235 (talk) 22:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Are you referring to the Harmonic properites section? Hyacinth (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

My point of view on harmonic/melodic
to me, it is just notes borrowed from the major key so the 5th degree of a minor key becomes major (V7) for a perfect cadence (V7 - I). A good example is autumn leaves. in the real book (for guitar) it is in E minor (F# sig of G Major). the 5th degree is B which is minor (phrygian) in G. It needs to become major for the "cadenza V-I". You then just borrow the notes (from the key of E major) D# for harmonic and C# - D# for melodic. remember that this is western music explanation... 198.103.221.51 (talk) 20:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC) Bachman198.103.221.51 (talk) 20:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.152.51 (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Above Considerations"
The section "Harmonic and melodic minor" starts out with 'the above considerations of chordal harmony led to the harmonic minor scale'.

There aren't any above considerations, and apparently haven't been for several months. Somebody take a look at that, eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.248.86.75 (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Lydian Minor
The Lydian Minor scale (fourth mode of Neapolitan Major) is an interesting exception to the rule that a "minor scale" contains the tonic, minor third, and perfect fifth, thus making the tonic chord a minor triad. Lydian Minor is based on the Lydian mode with a minor sixth and minor seventh--the third, curiously enough, is major (the "minor" moniker is likely based on the minor sixth and seventh, which are also flattened in the natural minor scale). What is even more surprising is that the most likely candidate for the name "Lydian Minor" would be Lydian b3--the fourth mode of Harmonic Major. That scale is the Lydian mode with a minor third. You would expect that to be called Lydian Minor, but this is not attested in the literature (Kadmon, 1997, pp. 50, 102). Anyway, is this "notable" enough to bear discussion? I figured I'd ask here first because these scales seem to be fairly obscure. I'm afraid it might just confuse most readers.

Kadmon, A. (1997). The guitar grimoire: A notated intervallic study of scales. New York: Carl Fischer.

MetalJon (talk) 22:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Is this Correct?
Harmonic Minor Scale: 1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 7 8 (?) when you have the A minor scale just described below? A B C D E F G# A'. Shouldn't it be tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone and a half, semitone? Therefore 1 b2 3 4 b5 6# 7. Or an I not understanding what you guys have written? 122.107.131.46 (talk)
 * The first number refers to the tonic itself. So 2 is a whole step above, ♭3 a half step above that (a minor third above the tonic), etc. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Harmonic Minor image incorrect
The three chords germane to the discussion are shown correctly, but the B-D-F triad is diminished and should be represented by "iio," not "ii." As such, the image needs to be regenerated. Ddunkman (talk) 16:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

 * Corrected. Hyacinth (talk) 05:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

A section on 'Natural minor scale' and the heading 'Harmonic minor scale' are missing
There is a heading 'Natural minor scale', but the text under it refers to the 'Harmonic minor scale'! So two things are missing: 1) The actual text about what the natural minor scale is. 2) The correct heading for the harmonic minor scale. This should be corrected! Lowbop (talk) 05:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Fixed. Hyacinth (talk) 07:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Idiosyncratic "system" material given undue weight
Standard music texts will discuss natural minor scale, harmonic minor scale, and melodic minor scale. A reasonably brief discussion about minor key is also appropriate. It may also be appropriate to talk about the modes that have a minor third (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, Locrian), although that's not really necessary as it's not clear that the term "minor scale" really has significant meaning outside of a tonal system. What is clear, though, is that all this stuff at the end--two relatively long sections!--about "chromatic-minor system" and whatnot is idiosyncratic and relies on a single source that may or may not be very good. In my opinion, those sections should just be removed--they do nothing other than give the impression that some oddball "system" apparently devised by one particular author is a standard thing when it's not. Someone reading this article should come away with an understanding that there are basically three types of minor scales in tonal music (natural, harmonic, and melodic). The "chromatic minor system" stuff is a distraction. It is more than unnecessary--it's presence does the article a disservice. SlubGlub (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I am frankly amazed by Ken Stephenson's writings. Yes, they are what one could call "idiosyncratic", but they are such uniquely accurate observations.  Rock music, as does the blues, loves the grey area between major and minor.  In addition, many have come to believe that these blues-based/post-blues genres of music are more simple-minded, or that classical- and jazz-based soundscapes are more sophisticated.  Stephenson's "chromatic-minor system", likewise, the other systems of his, is a clear proof of how rock has its own conventions (and subversions) of harmony, sometimes delving into the intricate, whether noticed or not.  They are very useful for those who want to learn; they deserve attention.  --CPGACoast (talk) 01:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

 * It is entirely possible that Ken Stephenson may be an amazing writer and uniquely accurate observer whose contributions are useful and deserve attention. However, that does not change the reality that entire sections on his chromatic-minor system and natural-minor system have no place in a short article on minor scales. SlubGlub (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Hi, I had not realized your reply until just now. I see that the section has since been removed.  Nonetheless, I feel that the information delivered in the removed sections on |chromatic-major and |-minor systems is quite valuable, or at least of interest, to anyone working creatively with music or studying blues-based music.  If anyone would like to see the old sections, the archived revisions are listed above. --68.192.114.243 (talk) 00:08, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Natural-minor system and Chromatic-minor system redirects
Someone with a willingness to follow Wikipedia process (really, just takes a tiny bit of patience) should nominate the redirect of "Natural-minor system" and "Chromatic-minor system" to this article for deletion under reason #8 at WP:R. That reason is: "If the redirect is a novel or very obscure synonym for an article name, it is unlikely to be useful." "Natural-minor system" and "Chromatic-minor system" are, as far as I can tell, novel and obscure constructs from Ken Stephenson's What To Listen For In Rock: A Stylistic Analysis. Redirecting them to the article on the minor scales is wrong for that reason, but also because it's just wrong! What Stephenson apparently describes is a harmonic system, not a scale. SlubGlub (talk) 04:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Tonic triad is undefined
"A minor scale in Western music theory includes any scale that contains, in its tonic triad, ..."

I do not see anywhere a definition of "tonic triad". Links to the separate articles on "tonic" and "triad" are not adequate to define "tonic triad". The reader is unable to understand "minor scale" because its supposed definition uses an undefined term.CountMacula (talk) 09:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Is everything a minor scale?
"A minor scale in Western music theory includes any scale that contains, in its tonic triad, ..."

Then certain scales are included among the minor scales. Are these the only scales included? Are these exactly the scales that are included? Are any other scales included? Let's make it easy, not hard. Please don't leave the reader wondering.CountMacula (talk) 09:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

 * Exactly my point, 11 years later. This is an internal conversation between Music theorists, not qualifying as an encyclopedia article, right? 148.69.193.46 (talk) 21:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Repair False Conjunction by Page Split
The article should serve to show the incorporation of 3 component scales into one hybrid flexible-melody, functional-harmony whole. It shouldn't contain, in the exclusive sense, the 3 component scales.

Melodic minor, for instance, has modes, which are treated only in an article on jazz. Melodic major, of which melodic minor could be said to be just a mode, is missing entirely from the wiki. Harmonic minor exists only here, but leaves no parallel place for corresponding harmonic major. Natural minor, melodic minor and harmonic minor are also components of the larger (n=6) set of ancohemitonic heptatonic scales, those scales accessible by the Western key signature system, and should be available as independent pages for reference from that (coming) page, too.

Thus I propose removing the redirects for natural, melodic, and harmonic minor, and segregating those sections into separate pages, while reinforcing the main thrust of this page as the historical and functional fusion of those 3 scales. 173.172.210.42 (talk) 04:19, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Harmonic major? Melodic major? Minor is "just a mode" of major? We can't organize our page based on fringe theories. Time to lay off the 4:20, my friend. —Wahoofive (talk) 07:05, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If anything, the reference to Jazz scale should be strengthened. —Wahoofive (talk) 07:09, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

There's no fringe theories, just your lack of context. You may not have heard of these scales, or understand tetrachord construction and their derivation from such, but that's no reason to make accusations of drug abuse. Research, learn a little bit. Read. It'll do wonders. 173.172.210.42 (talk) 04:19, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, pretty sure I remember hearing about "harmonic major" in Rimsky-Korsakov... Double sharp (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

What's "natural" about the "natural minor"?
Does anyone know what the word "natural" in "natural minor" refers to? Was there any rationale for choosing it? Or is it just a random label used for lack of a better one? Is the inventor of that term known? Did the term originate in English or in some other language? In French "natural minor" ("gamme mineure naturelle") is referred to sometimes as "gamme mineure de type antique", although I don't know which term is more common, which older, and whether "gamme mineure naturelle" was not in fact borrowed from English. Contact Basemetal   here  17:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It's called "natural" because it's diatonic, that is, aligned with the typical whole/half step series, which theorists have for centuries tried to connect with natural overtones. Glareanus invented the term aeolian to describe this scale, trying to connect it with other church modes. But I don't know when the term "natural" originated.
 * Just clicking on the translations of this page in other wikis leads you to the terms "scala minore naturale", "Escala menor natural", "Mode mineur naturel" (which connects it to "l'echelle diatonique naturelle"), and "Natürliches Moll", so I think I'm on safe ground in declaring the terminology to be international. —Wahoofive (talk) 18:41, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Huge mistake under Melodic Minor
This article currently says that the ascending melodic scale is the same as the natural minor and the descending scale has two altered notes, compared to the natural minor. This is backwards. It's the descending scale that is the same as the natural minor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timbomania (talk • contribs) 18:33, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Uh? Looks right to me. The numbers are being presented relative to the major scale, so of course the ascending melodic scale has "5 6 7 8" and the descending one has "5 ♭6 ♭7 8", just as it should have. Double sharp (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Diagram at the top
What do people think of the diagram at the very top with the white and black keys (File:MinorScale.svg)? My instinct is to delete it. In the very least, I think it's too small to read. Squandermania (talk) 01:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

 * I see what you are objecting to, though on my computer screen the diagram does not seem too small to read. It looks like a woodwind fingering chart, and it takes some time to work out what relation it has to the subject of the article. Does it contribute to an understanding of the subject, or hamper it? I'm inclined to think the latter.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

 * Delete. Not helpful to readers. —Wahoofive (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

What is a 'scale formation'?
'Scale formation' is used in the first sentence as an underlying concept -- but it is not explained or linked. 37.99.61.154 (talk) 10:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Agree. I changed the first one to "scale patterns" and the second one just to "scales". If someone prefers "scale variants" (or "variations") I could live with that. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:23, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Overly complicates a very simple subject
Major and minor scales are an incredibly simple concept. Over explained in this article to the point of stupidity.

Major scales can be written as TTSTTTS

The T represents tone. Or 1 full step. A to B would be considered a tone. The S represents a semitone or 1/2 step. B to C would be considered a semitone.

there are multiple minor scales but all that does is add confusion. The most commonly used is the natural minor. Using the same format as above....

TSTTSTT

In the above examples if we use c as the root note. The major scale becomes

CDEFGAB

The minor becomes

CDD#FGG#A#

The way I wrote it is correct. One way that Wikipedia could differentiate itself from the other websites is to actually use the notes the way that normal musicians use them. If you don't play jazz you don't say E minor. You don't say A minor. You say D sharp and G sharp.

It needs to be explained in the simplest most easy to understand way. The way it's written right now is a joke. nowhere on either the C minor or C major scale page or the major or minor scale page does it explain what I just explained in simple terms like I just explained them. There should be nothing on any of those pages other than what I just said. The notes the order they go in and that's it. The music theory stuff is irrelevant and immaterial. While it is important the vast majority of people do not understand the mathematical underlay of music. They don't get it and they don't care. There's no reason to have it here there's no reason to discuss the triads and the fifths and all the other garbage that is not important. Just answer the question what is the major scale the answer is

TTSTTTS

no matter what note you pick the major scale follows the pattern above. Doesn't matter. You can start with any note you want and it follows the pattern above. There's nothing else needed. This page is ridiculous.

Please believe I am only trying to help. I've read almost every music theory page on Wikipedia. Hundreds of pages and they all contain garbage upon garbage information. Overcomplicating what is actually a very simple concept.

I don't know how to make it simple. I can provide the information but I don't know how to make it simple and easy to understand. What I do know is this current page needs to be one paragraph long. Not 74 paragraphs. Just one is all that's needed

again I'm just trying to help. I'm abrasive and some people think I'm an asshole. ;) I just want to be able to share my love of music and the joy of music with the world. This article does not do that Sickboy254698 (talk) 06:37, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

 * Oh dear. No, it's not that sort of "simple" that you claim.  For instance your claim: "The minor becomes CDD#FGG#A#; The way I wrote it is correct. [...] use the notes the way that normal musicians use them."

 * No, that is never the representation of the C minor scale. Its third note is never described as D♯ (i.e. the second degree raised) but rather E♭ (i.e. the third degree lowered).  Likewise the 6th and 7th notes are not G♯ and A♯ but rather A♭ and B♭.  Where such enharmonic equivalents are possible in scales, the spelling (e.g. is it D♯ or E♭?) is based primarily on the degree of the scale, and its subsequent modification (raised or lowered).  For example the third note (degree) of a C scale is always a variant of E, never of D.

 * And "If you don't play jazz you don't say E minor. You don't say A minor. You say D sharp and G sharp." What does that even mean?  The keys are "E minor" and "A minor", across all of classical, jazz and pop.  Your "D sharp" and "G sharp" refer to the seventh degree (leading note) of the eight-note ocatve; they are absolutely not alternative ways of naming the key of the piece.

 * Hope that helps. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:59, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Notation details apart, Sickboy254698 comment is absolutely valid. This article isn't an encyclopedia entry. It doesn't explain anything to anyone that doesn't already know what it's about. The whole intelectual exhibitionism starts at the very firts paragraph, where there should be a DEFINITION of the topic, instead of diving directly into comments about it. Please, someone who knows what an encyclopedia article is, do rewrite this whole thing! Please! 148.69.193.46 (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

External Links removed
Let's discuss the criteria for which this link: https://www.fachords.com/tools/scale-finder/?key=3&scale=21&position=3 has been removed (an interactive tool for learning scales), while other links really similar to it are still there — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gianca1976 (talk • contribs)

 * If there are other links that don't meet the external links guideline, that is a reason to remove those links, not a reason for a COI editor to add more nonconforming links. - MrOllie (talk) 22:44, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

 * but those links are still there — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gianca1976 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Minor triads in intro
The introductory section states that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th scale degrees form minor triads i. All minor scales rather than major triads as compared to major scales. Looking at the example scales shown in that same section this does not seem to be true (also isn't true for the major scales). Instead the 1st, 4th, and 5th form minor/major triads in the minor and major scale(s) respectively. To clarify what I mean: the chords constructed from the notes in Cmaj in order are C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim. How is the third scale degree form in a major triad here? What am I missing? 2001:16B8:49FD:C00:7494:5666:AC3A:425E (talk) 12:03, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Scale degrees are single notes, not chords. The first, third, and fifth note of any diatonic scale make a triad, whose character depends on the intervals between those notes in a given scale. In minor scales, 1-3-5 make a minor triad. As you know, in a minor scale, triads using those scale degrees as root notes may be written i, III, and v in roman-numeral notation, where upper case means a major chord, and lower case means a minor chord. Just plain Bill (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Lead is a somewhat biased towards classical theory
The lead mentions that there are three scales classified as "minor scales": natural, harmonic and melodic. It doesn't mention the dorian mode, which is the default minor scale in jazz and other forms of popular music.

In my opinion the current order of the lead should be reversed. It should start with the definition that is currently the last line "A minor scale is a heptatonic scale in which the first, third and fifth scale degrees form a minor triad". This is the most general definition that everybody can agree on. Then it should say something like "In classical music, minor scale usually refers to three scale patterns: [...] In jazz, minor scale if unqualified commonly refers to the dorian minor." --Alextgordon (talk) 10:20, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

 * This article, along with "major scale", is about scales. These, almost by definition, are classically oriented.
 * Meanwhile there is already a complementary series of articles about modes: Greek, church and jazz.
 * So my view would be to let this scale-related article retain its scale orientation, just as we let the mode-related articles retain their mode orientation. There is already a mention in the article's lead to "related modes", which in turn leads the interested reader towards the wider topic of modes.
 * Feline Hymnic (talk) 20:46, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Do the contributors know the definition of "definition"?
I don't mean to be rude (ironic, maybe) but the introductory paragraph of this article is a virtuoso performance in the Art of Explaining Things Really Badly. Nothing in it has any resemblance to a definition — definition being defined, according to Wikipedia, as "a statement of the meaning of a term (a word, phrase, or other set of symbols)". Of course, there's no point in writing an article that only people already familiar with the topic can even start to understand what is writen, right? 148.69.193.46 (talk) 21:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Minor scale


text:
Sucre

Sucre is the de jure capital city of Bolivia, the capital of the Chuquisaca Department and the sixth most populous city in Bolivia. Located in the south-central part of the country, Sucre lies at an elevation of 2790 m. This relatively high altitude gives the city a subtropical highland climate with cool temperatures year-round.

Today, the region is of predominantly Quechua background, with some Aymara communities and influences.

Sucre holds major national importance and is an educational and government center, as well as the location of the Bolivian Supreme Court. Its pleasant climate and low crime rates have made the city popular amongst foreigners and Bolivians alike. Notably, Sucre contains one of the best preserved Hispanic colonial and republican historic city centres in the Western Hemisphere - similar to cities such as Cuzco and Quito. This architectural heritage and the millenarian history of the Charcas region has led to Sucre's designation as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The city has held an important place in Bolivian history from its place as an important center in the Real Audencia de Charcas, and later as the first capital of Bolivia before the fall of silver's importance as a global mineral commodity. Some regional tension remains from the historical transfer of capital functions to La Paz, and even today the issue features an important role in local culture and political ideology.

History
On November 30, 1538, Sucre was founded under the name Ciudad de la Plata de la Nueva Toledo (City of Silver of New Toledo) by Pedro Anzures, Marqués de Campo Redondo. In 1559, the Spanish King Philip II established the Audiencia de Charcas in La Plata with authority over an area which covers what is now Paraguay, southeastern Peru, northern Chile and Argentina, and much of Bolivia. The Real Audiencia of Charcas was a subdivision of the Viceroyalty of Peru until 1776, when it was transferred to the newly created Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata. In 1601 the Recoleta Monastery was founded by the Franciscans. In 1609, an archbishopric was founded in the city. In 1624 St Francis Xavier University of Chuquisaca was founded.

Very much a Spanish city during the colonial era, the narrow streets of the city centre are organised in a grid, reflecting the Andalusian culture that is embodied in the architecture of the city's great houses and numerous convents and churches. Sucre remains the seat of the Roman Catholic Church in Bolivia, and a common sight is members of religious orders dressed in traditional habit. For much of its colonial history, Sucre's temperate climate was preferred by the Spanish royalty and wealthy families involved in silver trade coming from Potosí. Sucre's University (Universidad Mayor Real y Pontificia de San Francisco Xavier de Chuquisaca) is one of the oldest universities in the new world. On May 25, 1809, the Bolivian independence movement was started with the ringing of the bell of the Basilica of Saint Francisco. This bell was rung to the point of breakage, but it can still be found in the Basilica today: it is one of the most precious relics of the city. Until the 19th century, La Plata was the judicial, religious and cultural centre of the region. It was proclaimed provisional capital of the newly independent Upper Peru (later, Bolivia) in July 1826. On July 12, 1839, President José Miguel de Velasco proclaimed a law naming the city as the capital of Bolivia, and renaming it in honor of the revolutionary leader Antonio José de Sucre. After the economic decline of Potosí and its silver industry, the Bolivian seat of government was moved from Sucre to La Paz in 1898. Many argue Sucre was the location of the beginning of the Latin American independence movement against Spain. From that point of view, Bolivia was the last Spanish imperial territory in South America to gain its independence, in 1825. In 1991, Sucre became a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Government
Together with La Paz, Sucre is one of two governmental centers of Bolivia: It is the seat of the judiciary, where the Supreme Court of Justice is located. As designated in the Constitution of Bolivia, Sucre is the true capital of the nation, while La Paz is the seat of government. Sucre is also the capital city of the department of Chuquisaca. The government of the City of Sucre is divided into executive and legislative branches. The Mayor of Sucre is the executive head of the city government, elected for a term of five years by general election. The legislative branch consists of the Municipal Council, which elects a President, Vice President and Secretary from a group of eleven members.

The mayor of Sucre is Enrique Leaño of the Movement for Socialism, who defeated Horacio Poppe in elections held on March 3, 2021. The Municipal Council is the legislative branch of the government of the municipality of Sucre, the constitutional capital of Bolivia. The council consists of eleven elected members, and it elects its own President, Vice President and Secretary. The members of the municipal council elected on May 3, 2021 are:

 * Oscar Sandy (MAS)
 * Yolanda Barrios (MAS)
 * Rodolfo Avilés (MAS)
 * Guadalupe Fernández (MAS)
 * Eduardo Lora (R-2025)
 * Melisa Cortés (R-2025)
 * Antonio Pino (R-2025)
 * Carmen Rosa Torres (R-2025)
 * Jenny Montaño (C-A)
 * Gonzalo Pallares (CST)
 * Edwin González (Unidos)

Geography and territorial organization
Sucre is divided into eight numbered districts: the first five of these are urban districts, while Districts 6, 7, and 8 are rural districts. Each is administered by a Sub-Mayor (Subalcalde), appointed by the Mayor of Sucre. The rural districts include numerous rural communities outside the urban area.

Sucre is served by Alcantari Airport, situated 30 km to the South.

Climate
Sucre has a subtropical highland climate (Köppen: Cwb), with mild temperatures year round. Rain generally falls in summer thunderstorms.

The highest record temperature was 34.7 C while the lowest record temperature was -6 C

The City of Four Names
Each of the well known names represent a specific era of the city's history:

 * Charcas was the indigenous name for the place upon which the Spaniards built the colonial city.
 * La Plata was the name given to the emerging Hispanic city of privilege and honor.
 * The name Chuquisaca was bestowed upon the city during the independence era.
 * Sucre honors the great marshal of the Battle of Ayacucho (December 9, 1824), Antonio José de Sucre.
 * "La Ciudad Blanca" is a nickname that was bestowed upon the city because many of the colonial style houses and structures are painted white.

Sports
Sucre has the most important sport facilities in Bolivia, and the most practiced sport in the city is football. Sucre has the second-biggest football and Olympic stadium in the country, the Estadio Patria. As of the 2019 Apertura, the 2008 champion club Universitario de Sucre was relegated from the Bolivian professional league, leaving the city without a first-division team.

Other sports are also practiced, such as swimming at la Piscina Bolivariana, basketball at numerous courts around the city, as well as taekwondo, kung fu, volleyball, tennis and racquetball.

Economy
The Mercado Campesino marketplace is the largest in Sucre.

Education
Sucre is home to the second oldest public university in the Americas, the Universidad Mayor Real y Pontificia de San Francisco Xavier de Chuquisaca; often abbreviated USFX. The university draws students both nationally and internationally, and different departments can be found scattered around the city. Degree areas at USFX include law, political science, medicine, odontology, chemistry, business administration, financial sciences, and more.

The city also features other academic institutions such as a campus of the private university Universidad Privada del Valle, also known as Univalle, the National Teachers School (Escuela Nacional de Maestros "Mariscal Sucre"), the Universidad Privada Domingo Savio, and the Universidad Andina Simón Bolívar.

Architecture
The city of Sucre contains many old and classic buildings.

The House of Freedom
Built in 1621, it is perhaps the most important building of the nation. The republic was founded in this building by Simón Bolívar who wrote the Bolivian Constitution.

The "Salón de la Independencia" houses the Bolivian Declaration of Independence.

National Library
Built on the same year of the foundation of the Republic, it is the first and the most important historical, bibliographical and documentation center of the country. The National Library has documents that date from 16th century.

Metropolitan Cathedral
Built between 1559 and 1712, the cathedral has the "Museo Catedraliceo" which is the first and most important religious museum of the country. The "Pinacoteca" has a vast collection of paintings by Colonial and Republican masters and also by Europeans such as Bitti, Fourchaudt and Van Dyck. The Cathedral contains a vast amount of jewelry made of gold, silver and gemstones.

Archbishop's Palace
Built in 1609, was an important religious and historic institution during colonial times.

Departmental Autonomous Government of Chuquisaca

One of the best buildings of republican architecture, this was completed in 1896. It was the first Palace of Government of Bolivia but when the government was moved to La Paz it became the Chuquisaca Governorship Palace.

Supreme Court of Justice
On July 16, 1827, the Supreme Court of the Nation was established. Its first president was Dr. Manuel Maria Urcullo. Others prominent in its history include Dr. Pantaleon Dalence, who was twice president of the Supreme Court and through his qualities became known as the 'Father of Bolivian Justice'. This institution was installed in several places before moving to its current building. It was designed in the neoclassical style under the canons of French academicism and was inaugurated on May 25, 1945.

General Cemetery
Some of the areas date from the late nineteenth century. Ornate mausoleums, tombs and gardens with magnificent old trees populate the space that is home to the graves of important people in the arts, sciences and the history both of Bolivia and of Latin America. Because of the tranquility offered by the site, many students choose to study here.

Churches and Convents

 * San Felipe Nery
 * San Francisco
 * La Recoleta
 * Santa Teresa
 * Santa Clara
 * Santo Domingo
 * San Lazaro (The oldest church in the country and ex-Cathedral of Sucre)
 * San Sebastian
 * Iglesia de la Merced
 * San Agustín
 * Santa Mónica
 * Santa Barbara
 * San Miguel

Chapels

 * Loreto's Chapel
 * Virgen de Guadalupe

Transportation
The city is served by Alcantarí Airport with multiple domestic destinations on three commercial airlines.

Twin towns – sister cities

 * 🇦🇷 La Plata, Argentina
 * 🇦🇷 San Miguel de Tucumán, Argentina
 * 🇦🇷 Ushuaia, Argentina
 * 🇨🇱 Concepción, Chile

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Sucre


text:
Guar gum

Guar gum, also called guaran, is a galactomannan polysaccharide extracted from guar beans that has thickening and stabilizing properties useful in food, feed, and industrial applications. The guar seeds are mechanically dehusked, hydrated, milled and screened according to application. It is typically produced as a free-flowing, off-white powder.

Production and trade
The guar bean is principally grown in India, Pakistan, the United States, Australia and Africa. India is the largest producer, accounting for nearly 80% of the world production. In India, Rajasthan, Gujarat, and Haryana are the main producing regions. The US has produced 4,600 to 14,000 tonnes of guar over the last 5 years. Texas acreage since 1999 has fluctuated from about 7,000 to 50,000 acres. The world production for guar gum and its derivatives is about 1.0 million tonnes. Non-food guar gum accounts for about 40% of the total demand.

Chemical composition

Chemically, guar gum is an exo-polysaccharide composed of the sugars galactose and mannose. The backbone is a linear chain of β 1,4-linked mannose residues to which galactose residues are 1,6-linked at every second mannose, forming short side-branches. Guar gum has the ability to withstand temperatures of 80 °C (176 °F) for five minutes.

Solubility and viscosity
Guar gum is more soluble than locust bean gum due to its extra galactose branch points. Unlike locust bean gum, it is not self-gelling. Either borax or calcium can cross-link guar gum, causing it to gel. In water, it is nonionic and hydrocolloidal. It is not affected by ionic strength or pH, but will degrade at extreme pH and temperature (e.g. pH 3 at 50 °C). It remains stable in solution over pH range 5–7. Strong acids cause hydrolysis and loss of viscosity and alkalies in strong concentration also tend to reduce viscosity. It is insoluble in most hydrocarbon solvents. The viscosity attained is dependent on time, temperature, concentration, pH, rate of agitation and particle size of the powdered gum used. The lower the temperature, the lower the rate at which viscosity increases, and the lower the final viscosity. Above 80°, the final viscosity is slightly reduced. Finer guar powders swell more rapidly than larger particle size coarse powdered gum.

Guar gum shows a clear low shear plateau on the flow curve and is strongly shear-thinning. The rheology of guar gum is typical for a random coil polymer. It does not show the very high low shear plateau viscosities seen with more rigid polymer chains such as xanthan gum. It is very thixotropic above 1% concentration, but below 0.3%, the thixotropy is slight. Guar gum shows viscosity synergy with xanthan gum. Guar gum and micellar casein mixtures can be slightly thixotropic if a biphase system forms.

Thickening
One use of guar gum is a thickening agent in foods and medicines for humans and animals. Because it is gluten-free, it is used as an additive to replace wheat flour in baked goods. :41 It has been shown to reduce serum cholesterol and lower blood glucose levels.

Guar gum is also economical because it has almost eight times the water-thickening ability of other agents (e.g. cornstarch) and only a small quantity is needed for producing sufficient viscosity. Because less is required, costs are reduced.

In addition to guar gum's effects on viscosity, its high ability to flow, or deform, gives it favorable rheological properties. It forms breakable gels when cross-linked with boron. It is used in various multi-phase formulations for hydraulic fracturing, in some as an emulsifier because it helps prevent oil droplets from coalescing, and in others as a stabilizer to help prevent solid particles from settling and/or separating.

Fracking entails the pumping of sand-laden fluids into an oil or natural gas reservoir at high pressure and flow rate. This cracks the reservoir rock and then props the cracks open. Water alone is too thin to be effective at carrying proppant sand, so guar gum is one of the ingredients added to thicken the slurry mixture and improve its ability to carry proppant. There are several properties which are important 1. Thixotropic: the fluid should be thixotropic, meaning it should gel within a few hours. 2. Gelling and de-gelling: The desired viscosity changes over the course of a few hours. When the fracking slurry is mixed, it needs to be thin enough to make it easier to pump. Then as it flows down the pipe, the fluid needs to gel to support the proppant and flush it deep into the fractures. After that process, the gel has to break down so that it is possible to recover the fracking fluid but leave the proppant behind. This requires a chemical process which produces then breaks the gel cross-linking at a predictable rate. Guar+boron+proprietary chemicals can accomplish both of these goals at once.

Ice crystal growth
Guar gum retards ice crystal growth by slowing mass transfer across the solid/liquid interface. It shows good stability during freeze-thaw cycles. Thus, it is used in egg-free ice cream. Guar gum has synergistic effects with locust bean gum and sodium alginate. May be synergistic with xanthan: together with xanthan gum, it produces a thicker product (0.5% guar gum / 0.35% xanthan gum), which is used in applications such as soups, which do not require clear results.

Guar gum is a hydrocolloid, hence is useful for making thick pastes without forming a gel, and for keeping water bound in a sauce or emulsion. Guar gum can be used for thickening cold and hot liquids, to make hot gels, light foams and as an emulsion stabilizer. Guar gum can be used for cottage cheeses, curds, yoghurt, sauces, soups and frozen desserts. Guar gum is also a good source of fiber with 80% soluble dietary fiber on a dry weight basis.

Grading
Guar gum is analysed for

Guar gum powder standards are:

 * HS-Code- 130 232 30
 * CAS No.- 9000-30-0
 * EEC No.- E 412
 * BT No.- 1302 3290
 * EINECS No. - 232-536-8
 * Imco Code- Harmless

Manufacturing process
Depending upon the requirement of end product, various processing techniques are used. The commercial production of guar gum normally uses roasting, differential attrition, sieving, and polishing. Food-grade guar gum is manufactured in stages. Guar split selection is important in this process. The split is screened to clean it and then soaked to pre-hydrate it in a double-cone mixer. The prehydrating stage is very important because it determines the rate of hydration of the final product. The soaked splits, which have reasonably high moisture content, are passed through a flaker. The flaked guar split is ground and then dried. The powder is screened through rotary screens to deliver the required particle size. Oversize particles are either recycled to main ultra fine or reground in a separate regrind plant, according to the viscosity requirement.

This stage helps to reduce the load at the grinder. The soaked splits are difficult to grind. Direct grinding of those generates more heat in the grinder, which is not desired in the process, as it reduces the hydration of the product. Through the heating, grinding, and polishing process, the husk is separated from the endosperm halves and the refined guar split is obtained. Through the further grinding process, the refined guar split is then treated and converted into powder. The split manufacturing process yields husk and germ called “guar meal”, widely sold in the international market as cattle feed. It is high in protein and contains oil and albuminoids, about 50% in germ and about 25% in husks. The quality of the food-grade guar gum powder is defined from its particle size, rate of hydration, and microbial content.

Manufacturers define different grades and qualities of guar gum by the particle size, the viscosity generated with a given concentration, and the rate at which that viscosity develops. Coarse-mesh guar gums will typically, but not always, develop viscosity more slowly. They may achieve a reasonably high viscosity, but will take longer to achieve. On the other hand, they will disperse better than fine-mesh, all conditions being equal. A finer mesh, such as a 200 mesh, requires more effort to dissolve. Modified forms of guar gum are available commercially, including enzyme-modified, cationic and hydropropyl guar.

Industrial applications
Fracturing fluids normally consist of many additives that serve two main purposes, firstly to enhance fracture creation and proppant carrying capability and secondly to minimize formation damage. Viscosifiers, such as polymers and crosslinking agents, temperature stabilizers, pH control agents, and fluid loss control materials are among the additives that assist fracture creation. Formation damage is minimized by incorporating breakers, biocides, and surfactants. More appropriate gelling agents are linear polysaccharides, such as guar gum, cellulose, and their derivatives.
 * Textile industry – sizing, finishing and printing
 * Paper industry – improved sheet formation, folding and denser surface for printing
 * Explosives industry – as waterproofing agent mixed with ammonium nitrate, nitroglycerin, etc.
 * Pharmaceutical industry – as binder or as disintegrator in tablets; main ingredient in some bulk-forming laxatives
 * Cosmetics and toiletries industries – thickener in toothpastes, conditioner in shampoos (usually in a chemically modified version)
 * Hydraulic fracturing – Shale oil and gas extraction industries consumes about 90% of guar gum produced from India and Pakistan.

Guar gums are preferred as thickeners for enhanced oil recovery (EOR). Guar gum and its derivatives account for most of the gelled fracturing fluids. Guar is more water-soluble than other gums, and it is also a better emulsifier, because it has more galactose branch points. Guar gum shows high low-shear viscosity, but it is strongly shear-thinning. Being non-ionic, it is not affected by ionic strength or pH but will degrade at low pH at moderate temperature (pH 3 at 50 °C). Guar's derivatives demonstrate stability in high temperature and pH environments. Guar use allows for achieving exceptionally high viscosities, which improves the ability of the fracturing liquid to transport proppant. Guar hydrates fairly rapidly in cold water to give highly viscous pseudoplastic solutions of, generally, greater low-shear viscosity than other hydrocolloids. The colloidal solids present in guar make fluids more efficient by creating less filter cake. Proppant pack conductivity is maintained by utilizing a fluid that has excellent fluid loss control, such as the colloidal solids present in guar gum.

Guar has up to eight times the thickening power of starch. Derivatization of guar gum leads to subtle changes in properties, such as decreased hydrogen bonding, increased solubility in water-alcohol mixture, and improved electrolyte compatibility. These changes in properties result in increased use in different fields, like textile printing, explosives, and oil-water fracturing applications.

Crosslinking Guar
Guar molecules have a tendency to aggregate during the hydraulic fracturing process, mainly due to intermolecular hydrogen bonding. These aggregates are detrimental to oil recovery because they clog the fractures, restricting the flow of oil. Cross-linking guar polymer chains prevents aggregation by forming metal – hydroxyl complexes. The first crosslinked guar gels were developed in the late ‘60s. Several metal additives have been used for crosslinking, among them are chromium, aluminium, antimony, zirconium, and the more commonly used, boron. Boron, in the form of B(OH)4, reacts with the hydroxyl groups on the polymer in a two step process to link two polymer strands together to form bis-diol complexes.

1:1 1,2 diol complex and a 1:1 1,3 diol complex, place the negatively charged borate ion onto the polymer chain as a pendant group. Boric acid itself does not apparently complex to the polymer so that all bound boron is negatively charged. The primary form of crosslinking may be due to ionic association between the anionic borate complex and adsorbed cations on the second polymer chain. The development of cross-linked gels was a major advance in fracturing fluid technology. Viscosity is enhanced by tying together the low molecular weight strands, effectively yielding higher molecular weight strands and a rigid structure. Cross-linking agents are added to linear polysaccharide slurries to provide higher proppant transport performance, relative to linear gels.

Lower concentrations of guar gelling agents are needed when linear guar chains are cross-linked. It has been determined that reduced guar concentrations provide better and more complete breaks in a fracture. The breakdown of cross-linked guar gel after the fracturing process restores formation permeability and allows increased production flow of petroleum products.

 * Mining
 * Hydroseeding – formation of seed-bearing "guar tack"
 * Medical institutions, especially nursing homes - used to thicken liquids and foods for patients with dysphagia
 * Fire retardant industry – as a thickener in Phos-Chek
 * Nanoparticles industry – to produce silver or gold nanoparticles, or develop innovative medicine delivery mechanisms for drugs in pharmaceutical industry.
 * Slime (toy), based on guar gum crosslinked with sodium tetraborate.

Food applications
The largest market for guar gum is in the food industry. In the US, differing percentages are set for its allowable concentration in various food applications. In Europe, guar gum has EU food additive code E412. Xanthan gum and guar gum are the most frequently used gums in gluten-free recipes and gluten-free products.

Applications include:

 * In baked goods, it increases dough yield, gives greater resiliency, and improves texture and shelf life; in pastry fillings, it prevents "weeping" (syneresis) of the water in the filling, keeping the pastry crust crisp. It is primarily used in hypoallergenic recipes that use different types of whole-grain flours. Because the consistency of these flours allows the escape of gas released by leavening, guar gum is needed to improve the thickness of these flours, allowing them to rise as a normal flour would.
 * In dairy products, it thickens milk, yogurt, kefir, and liquid cheese products, and helps maintain homogeneity and texture of ice creams and sherbets. It is used for similar purposes in plant milks.
 * For meat, it functions as a binder.
 * In condiments, it improves the stability and appearance of salad dressings, barbecue sauces, relishes, ketchups and others.
 * In canned soup, it is used as a thickener and stabilizer.
 * It is also used in dry soups, instant oatmeal, sweet desserts, canned fish in sauce, frozen food items, and animal feed.
 * The FDA has banned guar gum as a weight loss pill due to reports of the substance swelling and obstructing the intestines and esophagus.
 * For Cattle Feed, as it enhances in the production of more milk as well as more percentage of fat in the milk.

Nutritional and medicinal effects
Guar gum, as a water-soluble fiber, acts as a bulk-forming laxative. Several studies have found it decreases cholesterol levels. These decreases are thought to be a function of its high soluble fiber content.

Moreover, its low digestibility lends its use in recipes as a filler, which can help to provide satiety or slow the digestion of a meal, thus lowering the glycemic index of that meal. In the late 1980s, guar gum was used and heavily promoted in several weight-loss drugs. The US Food and Drug Administration eventually recalled these due to reports of esophageal blockage from insufficient fluid intake, after one brand alone caused at least 10 users to be hospitalized, and a death. For this reason, guar gum is no longer approved for use in over-the-counter weight loss drugs in the United States, although this restriction does not apply to supplements. Moreover, a meta-analysis found guar gum supplements were not effective in reducing body weight.

Guar-based compounds, such as hydroxypropyl guar, have been used in artificial tears to treat dry eye.

Allergies
Some studies have found an allergic sensitivity to guar gum developed in a few individuals working in an industrial environment where airborne concentrations of the substance were present. In those affected by the inhalation of the airborne particles, common adverse reactions were occupational rhinitis and asthma.

Dioxin contamination
In July 2007, the European Commission issued a health warning to its member states after high levels of dioxins were detected in guar gum, which was used as a thickener in small quantities in meat, dairy, dessert and delicatessen products. The source was traced to guar gum from India that was contaminated with pentachlorophenol (PCP), a pesticide no longer in use. PCP contains dioxins, which damage the human immune system.

title: Guar gum


text:
Rio Grande

The Rio Grande ( or ) in the United States or the Río Bravo (del Norte) in Mexico, also known as P’osoge in Tewa and Tó Ba’áadi in Navajo, is one of the principal rivers (along with the Colorado River) in the southwestern United States and in northern Mexico. The length of the Rio Grande is 1896 mi, making it the 4th longest river in the United States and in North America by main stem. It originates in south-central Colorado, in the United States, and flows to the Gulf of Mexico. The Rio Grande drainage basin (watershed) has an area of 182200 sqmi; however, the endorheic basins that are adjacent to and within the greater drainage basin of the Rio Grande increase the total drainage-basin area to 336000 sqmi.

The Rio Grande with its fertile valley, along with its tributaries, is a vital water source for seven US and Mexican states, and flows primarily through arid and semi-arid lands. After traversing the length of New Mexico, the Rio Grande becomes the Mexico–United States border, between the U.S. state of Texas and the northern Mexican states of Chihuahua and Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas; a short segment of the Rio Grande is a partial state-boundary between the U.S. states of New Mexico and Texas. Since the mid–twentieth century, only 20 percent of the Rio Grande's water reaches the Gulf of Mexico, because of the voluminous consumption of water required to irrigate farmland (e.g. the Mesilla and Lower Rio Grande Valleys) and to continually hydrate cities (e.g. Albuquerque); such water usages are additional to the reservoirs of water retained with diversion dams. 260 mi of the river in New Mexico and Texas are designated as the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River.

Geography
The Rio Grande rises in the western part of the Rio Grande National Forest, in the U.S. state of Colorado, and is formed by the joining of several streams at the base of Canby Mountain, in the San Juan Mountains, due east of the Continental Divide of the Americas. From the Continental Divide, the Rio Grande flows through the San Luis Valley, then south into New Mexico, and passes through the Rio Grande Gorge, near Taos, then toward Española, afterwards collecting additional waters from the Colorado River basin via the San Juan-Chama Diversion Project and from the Rio Chama. The Rio Grande then continues southwards, irrigating the farmlands in the Middle Rio Grande Valley through the desert cities of Albuquerque and Las Cruces in New Mexico, to El Paso, Texas and Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, in Mexico. In the Albuquerque metropolitan area, the Rio Grande flows by historic Pueblo villages, such as Sandia Pueblo and Isleta Pueblo. South of El Paso, the Rio Grande is the national border between the U.S. and Mexico.

The segment of the river that forms the international border ranges from 889 to 1,248 mi, depending on how the river is measured. The Rio Conchos is a major tributary of the Rio Grande, with its confluence 310 km. (193 straight air miles) southeast of El Paso near Ojinaga, in Chihuahua, Mexico. Downstream, other tributaries include the Pecos River and Devils River, both entering the Rio Grande from the north in the vicinity of Amistad Reservoir in Texas, and the Rio Salado and Rio San Juan both entering from the south with confluences in Tamaulipas, Mexico.

The Rio Grande rises in high mountains and flows for much of its length at high elevation; the valley floor at Albuquerque is 5312 ft, and El Paso 3762 ft above sea level. In New Mexico, the river flows through the Rio Grande rift from one sediment-filled basin to another, cutting canyons between the basins and supporting a fragile bosque ecosystem on its flood plain. From Albuquerque southward, the river flows through desert. Although irrigated agriculture exists throughout most of its stretch, it is particularly extensive in the subtropical Lower Rio Grande Valley. The river ends in a small, sandy delta at the Gulf of Mexico. During portions of 2001 and 2002, the mouth of the Rio Grande was blocked by a sandbar. In the fall of 2003, the sandbar was cleared by high river flows around 7063 cuft/s.

The Rio Grande flows through a valley with diverse animal and plants communities. Conservation of the river and the valley is a recurring theme for people who live in the region.

Navigation
Although the river's greatest depth is 60 ft, the Rio Grande generally cannot be navigated by passenger riverboats or by cargo barges. Navigation is only possible near the mouth of the river, in rare circumstances up to Laredo, Texas.

Navigation was active during much of the 19th century, with over 200 different steamboats operating between the river's mouth close to Brownsville and Rio Grande City, Texas. Many steamboats from the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers were requisitioned by the U.S. government and moved to the Rio Grande during the Mexican–American War in 1846. They provided transport for the U.S. Army, under General Zachary Taylor, to invade Monterrey, Nuevo León, via Camargo Municipality, Tamaulipas. Army engineers recommended that with small improvements, the river could easily be made navigable as far north as El Paso. Those recommendations were never acted upon.

The Brownsville & Matamoros International Bridge, a large swing bridge, dates back to 1910 and is still in use today by automobiles connecting Brownsville with Matamoros, Tamaulipas. The swing mechanism has not been used since the early 1900s, though, when the last of the big steamboats disappeared. At one point, the bridge also had rail traffic. Railroad trains no longer use this bridge. A new rail bridge (West Rail International Crossing) connecting the U.S. and Mexico was built about 15 miles west of the Brownsville & Matamoros International Bridge. It was inaugurated in August 2015. It moved all rail operations out of downtown Brownsville and Matamoros. The West Rail International Crossing is the first new international rail crossing between the U.S. and Mexico in over a century. The Brownsville & Matamoros International Bridge is now operated by the Brownsville and Matamoros Bridge Company, a joint venture between the Mexican government and the Union Pacific Railroad. At the mouth of the Rio Grande, on the Mexican side, was the large commercial port of Bagdad, Tamaulipas. During the American Civil War, this was the only legitimate port of the Confederacy. European warships anchored offshore to maintain the port's neutrality, and managed to do so successfully throughout that conflict, despite occasional stare-downs with blockading ships from the US Navy. It was a shallow-draft river port, with several smaller vessels that hauled cargo to and from the deeper-draft cargo ships anchored off shore. These deeper-draft ships could not cross the shallow sandbar at the mouth of the river. The port's commerce was European military supplies, in exchange for bales of cotton.

Ancestral Rio Grande
The sedimentary basins forming the modern Rio Grande Valley were not integrated into a single river system draining into the Gulf of Mexico until relatively recent geologic time. Instead, the basins formed by the opening of the Rio Grande rift were initially bolsons, with no external drainage and a central playa. An axial river existed in the Espanola Basin as early as 13 million years ago, reaching the Santo Domingo Basin by 6.9 million years ago. However, at this time, the river drained into a playa in the southern Albuquerque Basin where it deposited the Popotosa Formation. The upper reach of this river corresponded to the modern Rio Chama, but by 5 million years ago, an ancestral Rio Grande draining the eastern San Juan Mountains had joined the ancestral Rio Chama.

The ancestral Rio Grande progressively integrated basins to the south, reaching the Mesilla Basin by 4.5 million years and the Palomas basin by 3.1 million years ago, forming Lake Palomas. River capture by a tributary of the Pecos River then occurred, with the Rio Grande flowing to Texas by 2.06 million years, and finally joining the Pecos River 800,000 years ago, which drained into the Gulf of Mexico. Volcanism in the Taos Plateau reduced drainage from the San Luis Basin until a spillover event 440,000 years ago that drained Lake Alamosa, forming the Rio Grande Gorge, and fully reintegrated the San Luis Basin into the Rio Grande watershed.

Prior to European contact
Archeological sites from the earliest human presence in the Rio Grande Valley are scarce, due to traditional Indigenous nomadic culture, Pleistocene and Holocene river incision or burial under the Holocene floodplain. However, some early sites are preserved on West Mesa on the west side of the Rio Grande near Albuquerque. These include Folsom sites, possibly dating from around 10,800 to 9,700 BCE, that were probably short-term sites such as buffalo kill sites. Preservation is better in flanking basins of the Rio Grande Valley, where numerous Folsom sites and a much smaller number of earlier Clovis sites have been identified. Later Paleo-Indian groups included the Belen and Cody cultures, who appear to have taken advantage of the Rio Grande Valley for seasonal migrations and may have settled more permanently in the valley.

The Paleo-Indian cultures gave way to the Archaic Oshara tradition beginning around 5450 BCE. The Oshara began cultivation of maize between 1750 and 750 BCE, and their settlements became larger and more permanent.

Drought induced the collapse of the Ancestral Puebloan culture, at Chaco Canyon and elsewhere across the Four Corners region, at around 1130 CE. This led to a mass migration of the Ancestral Puebloans to the Rio Grande and other more fertile valleys of the Southwest, competing with other indigenous communities such as the Apache with territory in the Rio Grande Valley. This led to decades of conflict (the Coalition Period), the eventual merging of cultures, and the establishment of most of the Tanoan and Keresan pueblos of the Rio Grande Valley. This was followed by the Classic Period, from about 1325 CE to 1600 CE and the arrival of the Spanish. The upper Rio Grande Valley was characterized by occasional periods of extreme drought, and the human inhabitants make extensive use of gridded gardens and check dams to stretch the uncertain water supply.

Spanish exploration
In 1519, a Spanish naval expedition along the northeastern coast of Mexico charted the mouths of several rivers including the Rio Grande. In 1536, the Rio Grande appeared for the first time on a map of New Spain produced by a royal Spanish cartographer. In the autumn of 1540, a military expedition of the Viceroyalty of New Spain led by Francisco Vásquez de Coronado, Governor of Nueva Galicia, reached the Tiwa pueblos along the Rio Grande in the future New Mexico. On July 12, 1598, Don Juan de Oñate y Salazar established the New Spain colony of Santa Fe de Nuevo Méjico at the new village of San Juan de los Caballeros adjacent to the Ohkay Owingeh Pueblo at the confluence of the Rio Grande and the Río Chama.

Since 1830
During the late 1830s and early 1840s, the river marked the disputed border between Mexico and the nascent Republic of Texas; Mexico marked the border at the Nueces River. The disagreement provided part of the rationale for the Mexican–American War in 1846, after Texas had been admitted as a new state. Since 1848, the Rio Grande has marked the boundary between Mexico and the United States from the twin cities of El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, to the Gulf of Mexico. As such, crossing the river was the escape route used by some Texan slaves to seek freedom. Mexico had liberal colonization policies and had abolished slavery in 1828. In 1899, after a gradual change to the river position, a channel was dug for flood control which moved the river, creating what was called Cordova Island, which became the center of the Chamizal dispute. Resolving the dispute took many years and resulted in a 1909 combined assassination attempt on the American and Mexican presidents.

Rio Grande Water Rights (1900–present)
Following the approval of the Rio Grande Project by federal lawmakers in 1905, the waters of the Rio Grande were to be divided between the states of New Mexico and Texas based on their respective amount of irrigable land. The project also accorded 60,000 acre-ft of water annually to Mexico in response to the country's demands. This was meant to put an end to the many years of disagreement concerning rights to the river's flow and the construction of a dam and reservoir at various location on the river between the agricultural interests of the Mesilla Valley and those of El Paso and Juárez. In the agreement provisions were made to construct Elephant Butte dam on public lands. This act was the first occurrence of congressionally directed allocation of an interstate river (although New Mexico would not achieve statehood till 1912).

Following the admittance of New Mexico into the union, the increased settlement of the Rio Grande farther north in Colorado and near Albuquerque, the 1938 Rio Grande Compact developed primarily because of the necessary repeal of the Rio Grande embargo among other issues. Though both Colorado and New Mexico were initially eager to begin negotiations, they broke down over whether Texas should be allowed to join negotiations in 1928, though it had representatives present. In an effort to avoid litigation of the matter in the Supreme Court a provisional agreement was signed in 1929 which stated that negotiations would resume once a reservoir was built on the New Mexico-Colorado state line. The construction of this was delayed by the Market Crash of 1929. With negotiations remaining stagnant, Texas sued New Mexico over the issue in 1935, prompting the intervention of the president who set up the Rio Grande Joint Investigation the findings of which helped lead to the final agreement. The 1938 Rio Grande Compact provided for the creation of a compact commission, the creation of gaging stations along the river to ensure flow amounts by Colorado to New Mexico at the state line and by New Mexico to Elephant Butte Reservoir, the water once there would fall under the regulation of the Rio Grande Project which would guarantee provision to Texas and Mexico. A system of debits and credits was created to account for variations in the water provided. The compact remains in effect today, though it has been amended twice.

In 1944, the US and Mexico signed a treaty regarding the river. Due to drought conditions which have prevailed throughout much of the 21st century, calls for a reexamination of this treaty have been made by locals in New Mexico, Mexico, and Texas. Texas, being the state with the least amount of control over the waterway, has routinely seen an under-provision of water since 1992. In 1997, the US designated the Rio Grande as one of the American Heritage Rivers. Two portions of the Rio Grande are designated National Wild and Scenic Rivers System, one in northern New Mexico and the other in Texas, at Big Bend National Park.

In mid-2001, a 328 ft-wide sandbar formed at the mouth of the river, marking the first time in recorded history that the Rio Grande failed to empty into the Gulf of Mexico. The sandbar was dredged, but reformed almost immediately. Spring rains the following year flushed the reformed sandbar out to sea, but it returned in mid-2002. By late 2003, the river once again reached the Gulf.

Uncertain future
For much of the time since water rights were introduced in the 1890s, the Rio Grande flowed through Las Cruces from February to October each year, but this is subject to climate change. In 2020, the river flowed only from March to September. As of January 2021, the Elephant Butte Irrigation District (Ebid) expected that water shortages would mean the river only flows through Las Cruces from June through July. The water shortages are affecting the local ecosystem and endangering species including cottonwood trees and the southwestern willow flycatcher. The water of the Rio Grande is over-appropriated: that is, more users for the water exist than water in the river. Because of both drought and overuse, the section from Las Cruces downstream through Ojinaga frequently runs dry and was recently tagged "The Forgotten River" by those wishing to bring attention to the river's deteriorated condition.

In 2022, due to increasing drought and water use, the water debt owed to Texas increased from 31,000 acre-feet to over 130,000 acre-feet since 2021, despite “very significant efforts that were done on the river this year to keep water flowing downstream.” In response, New Mexico increased its program offering to subsidize farmers who fallow their fields rather than planting crops, which uses additional water; the city of Albuquerque shut off its domestic supply diversion and switched to full groundwater pumping in 2021.

Additionally, in 2022, work began on El Vado Dam, during which it is unavailable for storage, reducing system capacity by about 180,000 acre-feet. MRGCD has requested storage of "native water" downstream at Abiquiu Reservoir, which normally only stores waters imported into the Rio Grande watershed from the Colorado River watershed via the San Juan–Chama Project.

Elephant Butte Reservoir, the main storage reservoir on the Rio Grande, was reported at 13.1% of capacity as of May 1, 2022, further decreasing to only 5.9% full by November 2021. Nearly a year later, in October 2022, the reservoir had made only insignificant rebounds, resting at 6.4% of capacity.

In late July 2022, due to extreme drought, the Rio Grande ran dry for about 50 miles in the middle Rio Grande Valley, including five miles in Albuquerque, the first time it had done so in over 40 years. The following winter, the basin experienced above-average snowfall, leading to very high flows in the river in spring of 2023 and flooding of some of its tributaries, including the Jemez and Pecos Rivers. By that summer, after the spring runoff had concluded and due to a failed New Mexico monsoon season and record high temperatures, the river went dry in Albuquerque for a second consecutive year.

River modifications
The United States and Mexico share the water of the river under a series of agreements administered by the International Boundary and Water Commission (IBWC), US–Mexico. The most notable of these treaties were signed in 1906 and 1944. The IBWC traces its institutional roots to 1889, when the International Boundary Committee was established to maintain the border. The IBWC today also allocates river waters between the two nations and provides for flood control and water sanitation. Use of that water belonging to the United States is regulated by the Rio Grande Compact, an interstate pact between Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas.

62780 acre.ft of water in the upper Colorado River basin per year is entitled to municipalities in New Mexico by the Upper Colorado River Basin Compact; Albuquerque owns 48,200. The water is delivered to the Rio Grande by the San Juan–Chama Project. The project's construction was initiated by legislation signed by President John F. Kennedy in 1962, and was completed in 1971. This diversion project transports water under the continental divide from Navajo Lake to Lake Heron on the Rio Chama and on to the Rio Grande. In the past much of this water was resold to downstream owners in Texas. These arrangements ended in 2008 with the completion of the Albuquerque-Bernalillo County Water Utility Authority's (ABCWUA) Drinking Water Supply Project.

The ABCWUA's Drinking Water Supply Project uses a system of adjustable-height dams to skim water from the Rio Grande into sluices that lead to water treatment facilities, supplying potable water to over one million people. Some water is allowed to flow through central Albuquerque, mostly to protect the endangered Rio Grande silvery minnow. Treated effluent water is recycled into the Rio Grande south of the city. The ABCWUA expects river water to comprise up to seventy percent of its water budget in 2060. Groundwater will constitute the remainder. One of the policies of the ABCWUA's strategy is the acquisition of additional river water.

Dams on the Rio Grande include Rio Grande Dam, Cochiti Dam, Elephant Butte Dam, Caballo Dam, Amistad Dam, Falcon Dam, Anzalduas Dam, and Retamal Dam. In southern New Mexico and the upper portion of the Texas border segment, the river's discharge dwindles. Diversions, mainly for agricultural irrigation, have increased the natural decrease in flow such that by the time the river reaches Presidio, little or no water is left. Below Presidio, the Rio Conchos restores the flow of water. Near Presidio, the river's discharge is frequently zero. Its average discharge is 178 cuft/s, down from 945 cuft/s at Elephant Butte Dam. Supplemented by other tributaries, the Rio Grande's discharge increases to its maximum annual average of 3504 cuft/s near Rio Grande City. Large diversions for irrigation below Rio Grande City reduce the river's average flow to 889 cuft/s at Brownsville and Matamoros.

Crossings
The major international border crossings along the river are at Ciudad Juárez and El Paso; Presidio and Ojinaga; Laredo and Nuevo Laredo; McAllen and Reynosa; and Brownsville and Matamoros. Other notable border towns are the Texas/Coahuila pairings of Del Rio–Ciudad Acuña and Eagle Pass–Piedras Negras.

Names and pronunciation

Río Grande is Spanish for "Big River" and Río Grande del Norte means "Big River of the North". In English, Rio Grande is pronounced either or.

In Mexico, it is known as Río Bravo or Río Bravo del Norte, meaning (among other things) "furious", "agitated" or "wild".

Historically, the Pueblo and Navajo peoples also have had names for the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo:

 * mets'ichi chena, Keresan, "Big River"
 * posoge, Tewa, "Big River"
 * paslápaane, Tiwa, "Big River"
 * hañapakwa, Towa, "Great Waters"

The four Pueblo names likely antedated the Spanish entrada by several centuries.

 * Tó Baʼáadi, Navajo, "Female River" (the direction south is female in Navajo cosmology)

Rio del Norte was most commonly used for the upper Rio Grande (roughly, within the present-day borders of New Mexico) from Spanish colonial times to the end of the Mexican period in the mid-19th century. This use was first documented by the Spanish in 1582. Early American settlers in South Texas began to use the modern 'English' name Rio Grande. By the late 19th century, in the United States, the name Rio Grande had become standard in being applied to the entire river, from Colorado to the sea.

By 1602, Río Bravo had become the standard Spanish name for the lower river, below its confluence with the Rio Conchos.

Tributaries
The largest tributary of the Rio Grande by discharge is the Rio Conchos, which contributes almost twice as much water as any other. In terms of drainage basin size, the Pecos River is the largest.

title: Rio Grande