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Kitchen

A kitchen is a room or part of a room used for cooking and food preparation in a dwelling or in a commercial establishment. A modern middle-class residential kitchen is typically equipped with a stove, a sink with hot and cold running water, a refrigerator, and worktops and kitchen cabinets arranged according to a modular design. Many households have a microwave oven, a dishwasher, and other electric appliances. The main functions of a kitchen are to store, prepare and cook food (and to complete related tasks such as dishwashing). The room or area may also be used for dining (or small meals such as breakfast), entertaining and laundry. The design and construction of kitchens is a huge market all over the world.

Commercial kitchens are found in restaurants, cafeterias, hotels, hospitals, educational and workplace facilities, army barracks, and similar establishments. These kitchens are generally larger and equipped with bigger and more heavy-duty equipment than a residential kitchen. For example, a large restaurant may have a huge walk-in refrigerator and a large commercial dishwasher machine. In some instances, commercial kitchen equipment such as commercial sinks is used in household settings as it offers ease of use for food preparation and high durability.

In developed countries, commercial kitchens are generally subject to public health laws. They are inspected periodically by public-health officials, and forced to close if they do not meet hygienic requirements mandated by law.

Middle Ages

Early medieval European longhouses had an open fire under the highest point of the building. The "kitchen area" was between the entrance and the fireplace. In wealthy homes, there was typically more than one kitchen. In some homes, there were upwards of three kitchens. The kitchens were divided based on the types of food prepared in them.

The kitchen might be separate from the great hall due to the smoke from cooking fires and the chance the fires may get out of control. Few medieval kitchens survive as they were "notoriously ephemeral structures".

Colonial America
In Connecticut, as in other colonies of New England during Colonial America, kitchens were often built as separate rooms and were located behind the parlor and keeping room or dining room. One early record of a kitchen is found in the 1648 inventory of the estate of a John Porter of Windsor, Connecticut. The inventory lists goods in the house "over the kittchin" and "in the kittchin". The items listed in the kitchen were: silver spoons, pewter, brass, iron, arms, ammunition, hemp, flax and "other implements about the room".

Rationalization
A stepping stone to the modern fitted kitchen was the Frankfurt Kitchen, designed by Margarete Schütte-Lihotzky for social housing projects in 1926. This kitchen measured 1.9 by, and was built to optimize kitchen efficiency and lower building costs. The design was the result of detailed time-motion studies and interviews with future tenants to identify what they needed from their kitchens. Schütte-Lihotzky's fitted kitchen was built in some 10,000 apartments in housing projects erected in Frankfurt in the 1930s.

Materials
The Frankfurt Kitchen of 1926 was made of several materials depending on the application. The modern built-in kitchens of today use particle boards or MDF, decorated with a variety of materials and finishes including wood veneers, lacquer, glass, melamine, laminate, ceramic and eco gloss. Very few manufacturers produce home built-in kitchens from stainless steel. Until the 1950s, steel kitchens were used by architects, but this material was displaced by the cheaper particle board panels sometimes decorated with a steel surface.

Domestic kitchen planning
Domestic (or residential) kitchen design is a relatively recent discipline. The first ideas to optimize the work in the kitchen go back to Catharine Beecher's A Treatise on Domestic Economy (1843, revised and republished together with her sister Harriet Beecher Stowe as The American Woman's Home in 1869). Beecher's "model kitchen" propagated for the first time a systematic design based on early ergonomics. The design included regular shelves on the walls, ample workspace, and dedicated storage areas for various food items. Beecher even separated the functions of preparing food and cooking it altogether by moving the stove into a compartment adjacent to the kitchen.

Christine Frederick published from 1913 a series of articles on "New Household Management" in which she analyzed the kitchen following Taylorist principles of efficiency, presented detailed time-motion studies, and derived a kitchen design from them. Her ideas were taken up in the 1920s by architects in Germany and Austria, most notably Bruno Taut, Erna Meyer, Margarete Schütte-Lihotzky and Benita Otte, who designed the first fitted kitchen for the Haus am Horn, which was completed in 1923. Similar design principles were employed by Schütte-Lihotzky for her famous Frankfurt kitchen, designed for Ernst May's Römerstadt, a social housing project in Frankfurt, in 1927.

While this "work kitchen" and variants derived from it were a great success for tenement buildings, homeowners had different demands and did not want to be constrained by a 6.4 m2 kitchen. Nevertheless, the kitchen design was mostly ad-hoc following the whims of the architect. In the U.S., the "Small Homes Council", since 1993 the "Building Research Council", of the School of Architecture of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign was founded in 1944 with the goal to improve the state of the art in home building, originally with an emphasis on standardization for cost reduction. It was there that the notion of the kitchen work triangle was formalized: the three main functions in a kitchen are storage, preparation, and cooking (which Catharine Beecher had already recognized), and the places for these functions should be arranged in the kitchen in such a way that work at one place does not interfere with work at another place, the distance between these places is not unnecessarily large, and no obstacles are in the way. A natural arrangement is a triangle, with the refrigerator, the sink, and the stove at a vertex each.

This observation led to a few common kitchen forms, commonly characterized by the arrangement of the kitchen cabinets and sink, stove, and refrigerator:
 * A single-file kitchen (also known as a one-way galley or a straight-line kitchen) has all of these along one wall; the work triangle degenerates to a line. This is not optimal, but often the only solution if space is restricted. This may be common in an attic space that is being converted into a living space, or a studio apartment.
 * The double-file kitchen (or two-way galley) has two rows of cabinets on opposite walls, one containing the stove and the sink, the other the refrigerator. This is the classical work kitchen and makes efficient use of space.
 * In the L-kitchen, the cabinets occupy two adjacent walls. Again, the work triangle is preserved, and there may even be space for an additional table at a third wall, provided it does not intersect the triangle.
 * A U-kitchen has cabinets along three walls, typically with the sink at the base of the "U". This is a typical work kitchen, too, unless the two other cabinet rows are short enough to place a table on the fourth wall.
 * A G-kitchen has cabinets along three walls, like the U-kitchen, and also a partial fourth wall, often with a double basin sink at the corner of the G shape. The G-kitchen provides additional work and storage space and can support two work triangles. A modified version of the G-kitchen is the double-L, which splits the G into two L-shaped components, essentially adding a smaller L-shaped island or peninsula to the L-kitchen.
 * The block kitchen (or island) is a more recent development, typically found in open kitchens. Here, the stove or both the stove and the sink are placed where an L or U kitchen would have a table, in a free-standing "island", separated from the other cabinets. In a closed room, this does not make much sense, but in an open kitchen, it makes the stove accessible from all sides such that two persons can cook together, and allows for contact with guests or the rest of the family since the cook does not face the wall any more. Additionally, the kitchen island's counter-top can function as an overflow surface for serving buffet-style meals or sitting down to eat breakfast and snacks.

In the 1980s, there was a backlash against industrial kitchen planning and cabinets with people installing a mix of work surfaces and free standing furniture, led by kitchen designer Johnny Grey and his concept of the "unfitted kitchen". Modern kitchens often have enough informal space to allow for people to eat in it without having to use the formal dining room. Such areas are called "breakfast areas", "breakfast nooks" or "breakfast bars" if space is integrated into a kitchen counter. Kitchens with enough space to eat in are sometimes called "eat-in kitchens". During the 2000s, flat pack kitchens were popular for people doing DIY renovating on a budget. The flat pack kitchens industry makes it easy to put together and mix and matching doors, bench tops and cabinets. In flat pack systems, many components can be interchanged.

In larger homes, where the owners might have meals prepared by a household staff member, the home may have a chef's kitchen. This typically differs from a normal domestic kitchen by having multiple ovens (possibly of different kinds for different kinds of cooking), multiple sinks, and warming drawers to keep food heated between cooking and service.

Other types
Restaurant and canteen kitchens found in hotels, hospitals, educational and workplace facilities, army barracks, and similar institutions are generally (in developed countries) subject to public health laws. They are inspected periodically by public health officials and forced to close if they do not meet hygienic requirements mandated by law.

Canteen kitchens (and castle kitchens) were often the places where new technology was used first. For instance, Benjamin Thompson's "energy saving stove", an early 19th-century fully closed iron stove using one fire to heat several pots, was designed for large kitchens; another thirty years passed before they were adapted for domestic use.

As of 2017, restaurant kitchens usually have tiled walls and floors and use stainless steel for other surfaces (workbench, but also door and drawer fronts) because these materials are durable and easy to clean. Professional kitchens are often equipped with gas stoves, as these allow cooks to regulate the heat more quickly and more finely than electrical stoves. Some special appliances are typical for professional kitchens, such as large installed deep fryers, steamers, or a bain-marie.

The fast food and convenience food trends have changed the manner in which restaurant kitchens operate. Some of these type restaurants may only "finish" convenience food that is delivered to them or just reheat completely prepared meals. At the most they may grill a hamburger or a steak. But in the early 21st century, c-stores (convenience stores) are attracting greater market share by performing more food preparation on-site and better customer service than some fast food outlets.

The kitchens in railway dining cars have presented special challenges: space is limited, and, personnel must be able to serve a great number of meals quickly. Especially in the early history of railways, this required flawless organization of processes; in modern times, the microwave oven and prepared meals have made this task much easier. Kitchens aboard ships, aircraft and sometimes railcars are often referred to as galleys. On yachts, galleys are often cramped, with one or two burners fueled by an LP gas bottle. Kitchens on cruise ships or large warships, by contrast, are comparable in every respect with restaurants or canteen kitchens.

On passenger airliners, the kitchen is reduced to a pantry. The crew's role is to heat and serve in-flight meals delivered by a catering company. An extreme form of the kitchen occurs in space, e.g., aboard a Space Shuttle (where it is also called the "galley") or the International Space Station. The astronauts' food is generally completely prepared, dehydrated, and sealed in plastic pouches before the flight. The kitchen is reduced to a rehydration and heating module.

Outdoor areas where food is prepared are generally not considered kitchens, even though an outdoor area set up for regular food preparation, for instance when camping, might be referred to as an "outdoor kitchen". An outdoor kitchen at a campsite might be placed near a well, water pump, or water tap, and it might provide tables for food preparation and cooking (using portable camp stoves). Some campsite kitchen areas have a large tank of propane connected to burners so that campers can cook their meals. Military camps and similar temporary settlements of nomads may have dedicated kitchen tents, which have a vent to enable cooking smoke to escape.

In schools where home economics, food technology (previously known as "domestic science"), or culinary arts are taught, there are typically a series of kitchens with multiple equipment (similar in some respects to laboratories) solely for the purpose of teaching. These consist of multiple workstations, each with its own oven, sink, and kitchen utensils, where the teacher can show students how to prepare food and cook it.

China
Kitchens in China are called chúfáng(厨房). More than 3000 years ago, the ancient Chinese used the ding for cooking food. The ding was developed into the wok and pot used today. In Chinese spiritual tradition, a Kitchen God watches over the kitchen for the family and reports to the Jade Emperor annually about the family's behavior. On Chinese New Year's Eve, families would gather to pray for the kitchen god to give a good report to heaven and wish him to bring back good news on the fifth day of the New Year. The most common cooking equipment in Chinese family kitchens and restaurant kitchens are woks, steamer baskets and pots. The fuel or heating resource was also an important technique to practice the cooking skills. Traditionally Chinese were using wood or straw as the fuel to cook food. A Chinese chef had to master flaming and heat radiation to reliably prepare traditional recipes. Chinese cooking will use a pot or wok for pan-frying, stir-frying, deep frying or boiling.

Japan

Kitchens in Japan are called Daidokoro (台所; lit. "kitchen"). Daidokoro is the place where food is prepared in a Japanese house. Until the Meiji era, a kitchen was also called kamado (かまど; lit. stove) and there are many sayings in the Japanese language that involve kamado as it was considered the symbol of a house and the term could even be used to mean "family" or "household" (similar to the English word "hearth"). When separating a family, it was called Kamado wo wakeru, which means "divide the stove". Kamado wo yaburu (lit. "break the stove") means that the family was bankrupt.

India

In India, a kitchen is called a "Rasoi" (in Hindi\Sanskrit) or a "Swayampak ghar" in Marathi, and there exist many other names for it in the various regional languages. Many different methods of cooking exist across the country, and the structure and the materials used in constructing kitchens have varied depending on the region. For example, in the north and central India, cooking used to be carried out in clay ovens called "chulha" (also chullha or chullah), fired by wood, coal or dried cow dung. In households where members observed vegetarianism, separate kitchens were maintained to cook and store vegetarian and non-vegetarian food. Religious families often treat the kitchen as a sacred space. Indian kitchens are built on an Indian architectural science called vastushastra. The Indian kitchen vastu is of utmost importance while designing kitchens in India. Modern-day architects also follow the norms of vastushastra while designing Indian kitchens across the world.

While many kitchens belonging to poor families continue to use clay stoves and the older forms of fuel, the urban middle and upper classes usually have gas stoves with cylinders or piped gas attached. Electric cooktops are rarer since they consume a great deal of electricity, but microwave ovens are gaining popularity in urban households and commercial enterprises. Indian kitchens are also supported by biogas and solar energy as fuel. World's largest solar energy kitchen is built in India. In association with government bodies, India is encouraging domestic biogas plants to support the kitchen system.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kitchen


text:
Talk:Intifada

Talk

 * 1) Etymology

Another reference to cite for the word root:

https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/%D9%86%D9%81%D8%B6/

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-en/%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B6%D8%A9/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:1398:4AD0:C7FB:93CB:5BB1:FA99 (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

US Occupation
I think that the section for describing 'the iraq intifada' should not say "aimed at ending the US Occupation of Iraq". It seems to lack objectivity of the author, just as writing "aimed at ending the US Liberation of Iraq" would.

A more proper wording would be "aimed at ending the US military presence in Iraq".

-- Popoi

It is occupation
Well, what's happening in Iraq IS Occupation NOT Presence!

--Riyadhawi

They're the same thing, except "occupation" is a negative word, particularly when you capitalize it like that. Speaking of which, I think its use in the phrase "directed at ending the Israeli military occupation" is negative towards Israel, particularly since many, including intifada participants, will say that the intifada is aimed at obliterating Israel as a state and/or the Jews altogether, not just the occupation of Palestinian-populated areas. One can hardly say, for example, that Jerusalem, a major Palestinian goal (at the very least to share) is merely occupied by the Israeli military. I am going to change the wording to something legitimately biaseless, i.e. expressing both views.

--James

Third Intifada on FB
NYT Tuesday has Facebook Removes ‘Palestinian Intifada’ Page By JENNIFER PRESTON

5:43 p.m. | Updated After complaints by Israeli government officials and Jewish organizations in the United States, Facebook took down a page today by Palestinian supporters that called for violence against Jews and an uprising against Israel.

The page, entitled “Third Palestinian Intifada,” began earlier this month as a call for peaceful protests in the occupied Palestinian territories on May 15, one of more than a dozen Facebook pages that have been used in recent months to mobilize uprisings across the Middle East and North Africa.

[NYT article continues] One quirk of the story is the use of "Third Intifada" to refer to the same proposed activity on two contradictory logical grounds:
 * A.
 * First Palestinian Intifada
 * Second Palestinian Intifada
 * Third Palestinian Intifada
 * B.
 * Tunisian First Intifada
 * Egyptian Second Intifada
 * Palestinian Third Intifada

Surely we need to cover this as a FaceBook topic, notwithstanding two earlier years' deletions of earlier would-be-Third Intifada wannabe articles. --Jerzy•t 01:27 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I refer above to Articles for deletion/Third Intifada (fall 2010, delete) and Articles for deletion/Third intifada (winter 2007, merge to Khaled Mashal apparently w/o Rdr). --Jerzy•t 01:35 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Palestinian intifada nonviolent?
The first and second Palestinian intifadas included suicide bombers, stone throwing etc. Under History, it says it was intended to be nonviolent.

Even if it's meant to show intention only, it should also state that they were, in fact, violent.

If this part under History refers to the INTENT to represent it as non violent, that should be stated.

That's both for complete encyclopedic content and because in these complicated times of the current Israeli-Palestinian war, uneducated supporters who don't know what intifada is or can't tell the difference between Hamas and Palestinians search Wikipedia for affirmation for supporting Hamas, and they then call for intifada because "it means revolution" while to others like Hamas it means violent deeds like suicide bombings.

Yes, this is an encyclopedia, not an opinion column. But this section showing the first and second intifadas as non violent does the truth injustice in practice. Our purpose is to convey the facts well, this may fail at that.

Peace be upon both nations.

"... in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence." 2A0D:6FC2:64A0:B00:7C45:9BEF:DB18:BBAC (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The sentence seems to be eliding a lot, as the second intifada was in 2000, 15 years later and after the First Intifada had turned violent. The term in 2000 did not necessarily have the same connotation it had in the late 80s.The Second Intifada began violent on September 29, 2000, immediately after Sharon went to the Temple Mount, and both sides used violent rhetoric immediately with the militant terms this article says weren't used. 67.242.46.6 (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2023
The article is extremely misleading. It makes the reader believe that the Palestinian Intifadas were non violent - or intended to be non violent. But the truth is that both intifadas were indeed very violent from day 1. I can find numerous examples of this violence. If a suicide bomber on a bus is a “nonviolent” act than i guess no one is violent.

I will of course bring all the evidence needed - both for the definition of intifada and for the actual events that happened under it. Please let the truth be written!

Here’s one for the definition: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intifada Bozzidag (talk) 12:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 13:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is clearly written with bias towards the view that it is a non-violent movement. The words used to describe it as peaceful include positive terms like "solidarity" and "support," while the two sentences about the inherent violence dismissively use phrases like "alleged" and "feel." 68.112.18.142 (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ok. I would add to the first paragraph:
 * "An intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It is a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage referring to a uprising against oppression. In the Israeli - Palestinian conflict context, it refers to violent or non - violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation.
 * == Notes ==
 * == References ==
 * Intidada Definition, Cambridge Dictionary
 * Brinkley, Joel (1988). "sustained violence that has become known by the Arabic word for uprising, intifada", The New York Times.
 * Bard, Mitchell (2005). "This uprising or intifada was violent from the start." Jewish Virtual Library.
 * Balsam, Avi (2023). "Intifada revolution(...) a term which connotes violent uprising against Jews", The Tech.
 * Geraghty, Jim (2023) "Calling for an “intifada” is calling for a violent uprising", National Review.
 * Bozzidag (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.  Spintendo  23:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I don’t see a raging debate here, and I had one other person in this thread agreeing with me, plus another person complaining before about the same problem in this article (painting intifada as an almost hippie movement, which is absurd).
 * I understand that this edit is controversial, and you can read and take what you think is more important from what I’ve added, but please note that I did add references and sources for my claims, and not one, but five. Also, I dare you to find anything that I wrote that is NOT factual. I think it is politically biased to ignore ALL of it. Thanks Bozzidag (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ with some other sources. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ with some other sources. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

History Section
I request to add citations and change some of this text:

'In the Palestinian context, the word refers to attempts to "shake off" the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence.'

Ok. but i'd like to add :

In actuality, the first Intifada consisted of violent attacks on Israeli troops and civilians with stones, axes, Molotov cocktails, hand grenades, explosives, and firearms, as well as nonviolent actions such as mass boycotts, civil disobedience, and Palestinians refusing to work jobs in Israel.
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.  Spintendo  23:10, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Again, where is the raging debate ??
 * I understand that this edit is controversial, because this is an emotional and politically charged issue, but again, you can read and take what you think is more important from what I’ve added, but please note that I did add references and sources for my claims, and not one, but four. Once again, I dare you to find anything that I wrote that is NOT factual. I think it is politically biased to ignore ALL of it. Thanks Bozzidag (talk) 10:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌ - stale, contested request. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

rewording and adding reference to related source
the wording is confusing with the double or, here is my sugested rewording it and add link to relevant source on wikipedia according to WP:BUILD.

change:

it refers to violent or non-violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation.

to:

it refers to non-violent opposition or violent uprising by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation. 79.176.106.171 (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

sources on violence vs nonviolence
The lead says that 'intifada' refers to violent or non-violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation. But the sources do not support this. The sources cited are an Economist article that says Violence is a hallmark of an intifada, a Vox article which says that the First Intifada included both violent and non-violent actions, and a Deutsche Welle article that says nothing about non-violence, but simply summarizes the facts of the two violent intifadas in the history of Israel-Palestine. I therefore propose this revision: In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict context, it refers to uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation, characteristically involving violent resistance, and also sometimes involving nonviolent methods of resistance. Shinealittlelight (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 * The sources you provided here proves the point, that it involved both violent and non-violent methods. Relying exclusively on the Economist charachterization is cherrypicking a POV; I await your self-reversion. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Again the body makes it clear that in the I-P context the two intifadas were characterized by violence. And while the economist source is the most explicit that the “hallmark” of the intifadas was violence, all sources describe the violence in detail. So no cherry picking. Just accurate summary. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The body makes no such claims:
 * In the Palestinian context, the word refers to attempts to "shake off" the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence. The First Intifada was characterized by protests and violent riots, especially stone-throwing, while the Second Intifada was characterized by a period of heightened violence. The suicide bombings carried out by Palestinian assailants became one of the more prominent features of the Second Intifada and mainly targeted Israeli civilians, contrasting with the relatively less violent nature of the First Intifada.
 * Furthermore, the different definitions provided by yourself proves that such claim is not factually correct. I still await your self-reversion, as the burden of verifiability and reaching consensus is on the editor making a claim per WP:BRD and WP:BURDEN. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Neither intifada involved 21st-century-Western-style nonviolent protests, which is a difficult norm to achieve without our built-up advantage in state capacity. If you look at the Britannica page, the term "protests" is not used at all -- "riots" is what we'd call the same actions in the US, because they all involved extreme physical violence against Israelis and property. Already the action plans released daily by the PLO during 1987-9 generally included an instruction to throw stones and Molotov cocktails at Israelis and passing cars. However, the "intifada of stones and Molotov cocktails" (as declared by the PLO in 1987; PIJ tried to reframe it as an "intifada of knives" in 1990) was definitely less violent than the Second Intifada, which from its inception attempted to achieve higher Israeli casualties by using mostly guns and heavy explosives. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "21st-century-Western-style nonviolent protests". Ah, yes, western protests are inherently non-violent, and those savage non-westerner protests are inherently violent. Sorry to be blunt, but it is mind-boggling that anyone believes this and edits Wikipedia based on these prejudices. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No idea what you're talking about. In the United States in 2024, "protest" by default refers to a group of people standing on a street corner with placards chanting slogans. Neither intifada took this form. The characteristic action of the first intifada was a group of Palestinians throwing up an improvised roadblock and defending it with stones and Molotov cocktails, while the characteristic action of the second intifada was a suicide bombing or knife or gun attack on a crowded street. GordonGlottal (talk) 15:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, like the Daunte Wright protests, where westerners stood on a street corner peacefully with placards chanting slogans, and did not largely engage in any acts of rioting, looting, and arson. While of course the non-western 2018–2019 Gaza border protests were charachterized by suicide kites, and was not largely peaceful (the peaceful protestors were massacred anyway by the Israeli army). This dichotomy does not exist; let's start editing Wikipedia based on what reliable sources say, not what our prejudices say. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Remember that, even stipulating we have some sort of disagreement, this is not a forum for political disputes. The Daunte Wright page begins "Protests and civil disorder occurred." In this sentence "protests" refers to protests, and "civil disorder" refers to the "rioting, looting, and arson" that you mention. "Civil disorder" is used in addition to "protests" because these actions are not normally defined under "protests" without the modifier "violent" or etc. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article is nevertheless still called Daunte Wright protests, not Daunte Wright Riots. I agree this is not a forum for political disputes, this is a forum to demonstrate in it that we as editors have a responsibility to edit according to reliable sources, not according to baseless prejudices. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that the body says the term was chosen to connote nonviolence. But the fact that it was chosen to connote nonviolence is consistent with the fact, also established by sources, that the intifadas ended up being characterized by violence anyway. And the fact that they were characterized by violence is established by the quote you provide: the first intifada was characterized by protests and violent riots (note, it definitely does not say "non-violent protests" but rather protests and violent riots) and the second intifada was even more violent, and was characterized by a period of hightened violence. So again, these intifadas were characterized by violence, per all the sources and the current body. Our lead should reflect this.
 * The current state of consensus is this: there was an inaccurate version of the lead, I pointed this out on talk above (on 26 April), proposed my alternative, waited a day, saw no response, and changed the lead accordingly. You are now here wanting to propose a new edit. You need to gain consensus to enact that new edit. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * RS, including the ones you provided above, do not agree that the first intifada was mainly violent:
 * Daniel Lefkowitz, a professor of language and culture in the Middle East at the University of Virginia who lived in Israel for several years in the early 2000s, hypothesized that, for most Palestinians, the word brings up memories of the First Intifada, a largely non-violent Palestinian protest largely involving work stoppages, boycotts and demonstrations. Some Palestinians also attacked Israelis, mostly with small weapons such as rocks or Molotov cocktails, and on some occasions with firearms or grenades.
 * If anything the intifadas were characterized by even deadlier and more violent Israeli repression. This is both cherrypicking of RS and of information. I still await your self-reversion because the claim that the intifadas were charachterized by violence is a claim you are trying to insert, and one I am trying remove; the burden again is on you. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that one source says Professor Lefkowitz thinks that the first intifada was "largely nonviolent". Several other sources characterize the intifadas as characterized by violence as indicated. But in any case the opinion of this single person seems WP:UNDUE to me in light of the totality of the sources.
 * I don't understand the relevance of your claim about "Israeli repression". The sources indicate that the intifadas were characterized by violence. That's consistent with your claim about "Israeli repression" so I don't understand why you're bringing that up. Nobody needs to dispute your claim.
 * As for the current state of the article, you need consensus for a new edit, as explained above. Shinealittlelight (talk) 15:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources simply disagree:
 * "In contrast to the First Intifada, which was predominantly peaceful, the Second Intifada was violent."
 * "While the first Intifada was a peaceful people's revolt, the second became a violent battle between the elites of both sides who had failed to formulate a shared vision for a solution of the conflict."
 * WP:BURDEN: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material." You restored the material that the protests were characterized by violence and the burden is on you to demonstrate verifiability. I have went out of my way to refute the alleged universality of this claim and I am still waiting for your self-revert. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Helpful sources, thanks. I think part of the problem here is that terms like "predominately peaceful" are vague. Let's go for the facts. For example, this source gives us some hard facts: The first intifada began as demonstrations, strikes, riots and violence ... an Israeli was stabbed to death while shopping in Gaza ... Mass rioting broke out in Jabalya ... a 17-year-old youth was killed by an Israeli soldier after throwing a Molotov cocktail at an army patrol ... rock-throwing, blocked roads and tyre burnings were reported throughout the territories ... six Palestinians had been killed and 30 injured in the violence ... rioters threw a gasoline bomb at the US consulate in East Jerusalem ... 16 Israeli civilians and 11 soldiers were killed by Palestinians in the territories, but more than 1,400 Israeli civilians and 1,700 Israeli soldiers were injured... I propose that we summarize these facts and then cite the mixed sources that disagree about whether this constitutes a violent uprising. We could then discuss how to alter the lead to summarize the new material in the body. Sound good? Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:15, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Meaning of predominantly in the dictionary: for the most part; it is a clear word that is not vague. This sounds to me like original research and irrelevant anyway. The violence vs nonviolence of these revolts is not relevant to the article. We do not discuss whether Sahara's intifadas were violent vs nonviolent; we do not discuss whether the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was violent or consisted of peaceful chants with placards. This is not relevant to the article in any case. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that the quote I provided from the Seddon source is original research? It is not: it is a quote from the book I linked. You wanted to include some information from the sources you found: that these particular scholars think that the first intifada was "predominately peaceful". I've suggested a way we can do this neutrally given that sources conflict: we can provide context by summarizing the facts in the reliable source I found, and then attribute the mixed opinions on whether the facts amount to a violent or nonviolent uprising. If you've changed your mind and don't want to include the material from the sources you found, that's fine too, I'm fine with leaving it as-is. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, the quote is not original research, what you are trying to do with the quote is analyze it and come up with your own personal conclusions, which is original research. Wikipedia reports the conclusions of reliable sources, not of editors, and reliable sources as demonstrated above disagree that the first intifada was characterized by violence. I am sure you will act in good faith to discuss this, seeking consensus here per WP:BURDEN, and not restoring your preferred version by inserting a claim that contradicts reliable source provided above. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What was the "personal conclusion" I drew? Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This course of action seems like original research: "I propose that we summarize these facts and then cite the mixed sources that disagree about whether this constitutes a violent uprising." And is anyway, as mentioned, not related to the article, since we are not discussing the tactics and the contexts of the Warsaw, Iraqi or Sahrawi intifadas. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Summarizing the facts from a reliable source and then adding the sources you mentioned is OR? No, that's incorrect. Also, you're now engaged in an edit war. Please revert to the version before and gain consensus for your new version. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Summarizing the facts to come up with one's personal conclusions is OR. There's no edit war here so far and there is no such thing as new version in WP policy. Any additions to the article require consensus. If any claim is inserted and is disputed, especially in this case which was only as recent as a few days added, then consensus is required for its addition. If consensus is not reached between the three of us then the next step would be an RFC. Re-adding contested material without consensus would be edit warring. This is how WP processes work. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What was the personal conclusion? You never said. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Analyzing the events of the intifada and concluding if it was violent/nonviolent, which was called "summarizing", and then contrasting with RS provided above. In any case, this is still not relevant to the article, which makes no mention what the tactics of the countless other intifadas were. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I did not propose a conclusion of my own about the events of the intifada. I proposed adding the description of the events of the intifada from the source I found, and then adding the opinion about those events from our various sources. My opinion did not come into it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Retroactive use of word intifada
it seems many conflicts have recently been added to indicate they were intifadas.

The editors should confirm that these were called as intifadas in that time.

There is an attempt to normalize the term intifada outside of the Palestinian context. Where it never was used as such.

Simply translating all uprisings as intifadas is not intellectually honest 174.141.173.97 (talk) 13:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree and I'm particularly concerned by our reference to the "concept" of intifada. What we list are examples of popular uprisings that are referred to as "intifada" by modern media, none of these were called intifada at the time and it's not at all clear to me that there's anything that unifies these conceptually to the exclusion of other events. I'm going to remove the content and someone can add it back if they find a source. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree and almost all of the examples do not include sources. Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"no nuance of violence"
I tried to track down the source of the claim that it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence. The cite given is to Mary E. King, A Quiet Revolution (2007), p. 208. King says there They had revived the word intifada deliberately, as a linguistically nonviolent construction because it carries no implication of violence, from its earlier use in the student struggles of the 1980s but she doesn't cite any source. In an earlier book (Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. (1999) p. 470) King says The choice of the term intifada, or ‘shaking off’, was itself linguistically nonviolent which is somewhat more limited, and cites this to "Jonathan Kuttab, interview with author, Jerusalem, 8 June 1988".

Kuttab is a very interesting commentator on the conflict, but I'm concerned that he doesn't define "nonviolent" in the way Wiki readers will expect. Two months before Kuttab's interview with Mary E. King, you can watch him on YouTube clarifying that he means throwing stones, which he considers "relatively speaking, within that context" nonviolent. You can read in Mary E. King's book (p. 259ff) a sympathetic treatment of intifada leaders' take on the nonviolence of stone-throwing. In any case, I think we should look for other sources or note explicitly that the First Intifada can only be said to have been significantly non-violent if stone-throwing is defined as non-violent. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:03, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I don't think you've got that quite right. The current source isn't to King's book, but to an article called "Birth, Transformation, and Death of Refugee Identity: Women and Girls of the Intifada". There, she cites a 1991 paper (then in press) by Judith Martin. Martin makes the claim explicitly, and cites a personal interview with Faisal Husseini, who evidently told Martin he chose this word (along with other Palestinian leaders) because of it's connotation. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Shinealittlelight Martin doesn't really say that. She only cites the previous paragraph to an interview with Husseini. But let's assume she meant to cite that interview with Husseini in May 1990. At the Madrid Conference of 1991 Husseini said "Until now the intifada was with stones". See here. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair points, but I still think the source is reliable for the claim that the term was chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistence". I would agree that the source is not reliable for the claim that the intifada was nonviolent, or even that it was intended to be nonviolent or beleived to be nonviolent. So maybe what you're saying is that we need to clarify that despite the decision to choose this term to connote nonviolence, the intifada was nevertheless violent from the very beginning. I would agree with that. The same sources note that stone throwing was characteristic from the outset. Shinealittlelight (talk) 20:45, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Warsaw
Please self-revert your last edit to bring yourself in compliance with WP:1RR. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Violating 1RR, removing sourced material and ignoring the talk page is not going to sit well at ARBCOM. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:23, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Why aren't you reverting your bold edits and get consensus for the sourced material which some editors argue isn't reliable enough for this specific topic, see dw antisemitic controversies|dw 212.29.194.49 (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2024
This reference is in Arabic and when translated provides no academic support for this claim. There is no historical reference of any integrity or objectivity that will refer to the Warsaw ghetto uprising as an intifada. This claim in and of itself is Holocaust revisionism, and anti-Semitic. It needs to be removed from this page, and removed in the reference below. Jimrose000 (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Agreed, and it is included now in the Events Called Intifada, almost all of which do not include citations or sources. Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done It looks like the text in question has been removed. I will note, however, that there is a bit of an edit war to add (or remove) the content, so it might be re-added in the future. Hopefully, though, a discussion will be had and further warring avoided. Primefac (talk) 12:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Lede
MOS:LEDE: Lede is a summary of the body; it is not out-of-place; waiting for your self-reversion to bring compliance with WP policies. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

 * That sentence is definitely out-of-place. A better sentence would be something along the lines of "The word intifada is also used in Arabic to refer to rebellions and uprisings outside of Arab world such as the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising." Smartypants2006 (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then please feel free to expand that sentence accordingly and re-add it to the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I consulted two authoritative histories of the Warsaw ghetto uprising (one from University of California press, one from Yale University press), and neither one of these lengthy sources uses the term "intifada" a single time. I think it's therefore not correct to include this content in the article. Several other editors have agreed with this:, , . Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Original Research/Lack of Sources
Under the section called Events Named Intifada,

The majority do not have citations associated with them. Furthermore some, such as referring to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising only rely on 1 source which is a news article from a German Newspaper less than a year old and should not indicate a consensus that the name is accepted, especially as it is unclear if the original article was written in German and auto translated to Arabic. Eframgoldberg (talk) 17:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree. Most of the material in that section should be removed, as it is unsourced. I have unsuccessfully tried to find sources for some of them. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Warsaw
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is referred to as an intifada in Arabic according to German state-funded newspaper DW, the Israeli TV station i24NEWS (Israeli TV channel), and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which reflects a universal consensus. This ideological removal of sourced content must stop. , 's suggestion is a good middle ground solution for the lede. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

 * I don’t think anyone is trying to engage in “ideological removal of sourced content”. There’s a good faith disagreement here. The question is whether the fact that an Arabic language source calls an event “انتفاضة” (or some cognate) is sufficient to conclude that it should be deemed to be among “events named intifada” in our English language article. The word “intifada” is normally used in English language sources for a much narrower range of events than the word “uprising”. This is evidently not the case in Arabic language sources. I think we want this article to reflect the narrower use in English since this is not an article about uprisings in general. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Removal of sourced content for no good reason is indeed ideological. This article, as defined by the opening paragraph, clearly states that its scope is the Arabic word. And there are now two highly reliable sources, worthy noting that one is German and the other is the Holocaust Memorial Museum, showing that indeed the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is called an intifada in Arabic because that's the literal translation of uprising. To add a cherry on top we have a right-wing Israeli TV channel to ward off any further ideologically-based counterarguments. This is sourced and needs to stay. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Let’s WP:AGF please. So your view is that this article should be about uprisings in general, since it seems that any event called an uprising in English will be called by the Arabic word in Arabic. By contrast, compare how Britannia deals with the topic here: . Also we already have another article on rebellions in general. Let’s see what the other editors have to say. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:07, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not my view, this is the article's already existing scope; that it is about the Arabic word. Meanwhile, Britannica, which is not a reliable source according to WP and is a WP:TERTIARY source, specifically mentions the Intifada within the scope of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict below the title. Hence, these are two different things, this article has a broader scope. Highly reliable sources have been provided for this point and there's no reasonable justification why they should be excluded. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You are asserting this, so it is your view. That doesn’t mean it is not correct. Let’s seek consensus. WP does not deem Britannica to be unreliable. It is simply a tertiary source that by the policy you linked can be used to establish what is due in an article. I stand by my view that this article should not be about uprisings in general. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay let's seek consensus. WP:CONSENSUS says reaching consensus is based on Wikipedia guidelines and making compromises by reaching middle ground solutions. I have provided two highly reliable sources per the guidelines and made a compromise accepting Smartypants2006's phrasing. The ball is no longer in my court. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Whether the sources and proposal you provided are sufficient depends on the question I identified about the scope of the article. I think we need to hear from others now; you and I are unlikely to come to consensus by ourselves. Shinealittlelight (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * One more question: if we can find a history book in Arabic that talks about the American revolution, or the French revolution, or the Bolshevic revolition, and it calls these "انتفاضة", should we include them on the list too? Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't since revolution does not translate to intifada, but uprising does. And yes, we would include them too, because the scope of the article is the Arabic word. We are fully capable of reaching consensus when we make arguments that are based in relevant Wikipedia policies. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What you are saying is that if an Arabic writer will publishing an article and he will call the french revolution the french intifada it will sufficient by your standards to be included in this article? 212.29.194.49 (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * all sources who call this intifada are news articles from recent years, I was not able to find any academic metirial supporting this claim. 212.29.194.49 (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

 * this is the reason to removed the one citation from the list of 10+ its no so much removal of content as reducing the amount of content.  the main point is to give examples of political acts that could be described by the word intifada.  however in the particular case of called Warsaw Uprising an "intifada" is an apparent case of Holocaust inversion, intended or not.  It creates false equivalents between Palestinians with Polish Jews and Israelis with Nazis. Jimrose000 (talk) 17:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Holocaust_inversion&redirect=no
 * https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/opinion/356234/jewish-studies-and-holocaust-inversion-making-gaza-into-auschwitz/ Jimrose000 (talk) 17:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The fact that the Association for Jewish Studies is being criticized for "Holocaust inversion" says more about the criticism than it does about the AJS or the idea that such a thing is not a transparent effort to shield a certain state from criticism. Anyway, that you think it is "Holocaust inversion" is a nice personal opinion to have, but it doesn’t factor in to our content decisions at all. Finally, this being related to the Arab Israeli conflict, new accounts and IPs may not participate.  nableezy  - 23:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Odd that you discount AJS simply because the name contains "Jewish". The organization is quite established academically and located at a major academic institution, Brandeis University.  Brandeis is also a very progressive institution that maintains a deep program in Middle East and Islamic study.  I added a wiki reference as well, if you didnt notice, and there are plenty more to add. Point being this is a widely acknowledged concern regarding a soft form of antisemitism and ought to be respected as such.
 * I maintain that an academically respected and established reference for Warsaw Uprising as Intifada be found before it is included in the wiki entry. until that source is found, it does very little to the wiki entry to add this highly questionable reference to an already long list that is offered as support for the definition. Suffice to say that if I make a website that describes First Intifada, Second Intifada etc as a "tea party" that does not make ts a source reference.
 * Take the data for what its worth. Jimrose000 (talk) 13:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I did not discount them lol. That is a lie. I discounted the attack on the AJS by Jarrod Tanny, claiming that the AJS is participating "Holocaust inversion" by publishing a section on the artwork installation "Gaza Ghetto" by Jewish artist Ruth Sergel in their Fall 2022 edition of Perspectives. No part of that was my discounting any group or organization for containing the word "Jewish". Please do not lie about what I wrote, especially to make a claim of racism. Again, you may not participate in this discussion. I am collapsing this entire bit as an ARBECR violation.  nableezy  - 14:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

 * How much does the Warsaw Uprising factor into coverage of the topic of this article? Not everything that can be sourced should be in an article, if it isnt a topic that is routinely discussed within the context of "initifada" then it doesnt belong. But the Britannica article is not a good template, it is only about the two Palestinian intifadas, and there are plenty of other ones besides those.  nableezy  - 13:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article's scope is about the Arabic word and not the context of an Arab concept. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, and how many of the articles discussing the Arabic word discuss Warsaw? If it is a handful of news sources this doesnt merit inclusion.  nableezy  - 14:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are no articles discussing the Arabic word, similar to any article about any foreign word on English Wikipedia. This still doesn't affect the fact that every uprising is referred to in Arabic as an intifada, including most prominently the Warsaw Ghetto one, and by Israeli sources such as ToI. Can you elaborate on how this is an argument against inclusion? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Because you need sources to show that it is prominent, not just establish that prominence yourself. If the Warsaw Uprising is a noteworthy subtopic in the topic of the Arabic word then sources that focus on coverage of the Arabic word would be discussing the Warsaw Uprising as being a prominent example. It would be like including in the lead of Madrasa that this is also used for schools like Eton College. That may well be true, but it isnt really part of the topic of Madrasa when sources are discussing the term.  nableezy  - 15:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the question is what to understand by your term the context of "intifada". Do you think that Arabic sources using the word "انتفاضة" are among those contexts? Makeandtoss thinks that the scope is about the Arabic word but I am not convinced. The fact that we mention the Arabic word in the first sentence does not mean that the scope includes all sources in which that Arabic word occurs. There's clearly a distinction between uprisings and intifadas in English--we don't call every uprising an intifada in English--and of course "intifada" in its more restricted English use nevertheless derives from the Arabic word. So we would mention the word whether we intend the more restricted or the more general use to be the scope of our article. The fact that we mention the word therefore does not settle the issue. My view is that our readers are not coming to this article for information about uprisings in general (for which we have a separate article), but are coming to this article for information about events called intifadas in ordinary English. Shinealittlelight (talk) 14:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article starts with: "Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is an Arabic word".
 * Why would English sources call non-Arab uprisings an intifada? That would make no sense. Of course they wouldn't. But in Arabic, every uprising is an intifada. This article is about the Arabic word, whether it is used in the Arabic and English languages in the context of Arab uprisings, or whether it is used in Arabic to refer to non-Arab uprisings. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * English sources generally don't seem to call all uprisings "intifada". They generally seem to call certain uprisings (not all!) in Arabic speaking parts of the world by that name. I think those uprisings are what the article should be about. I understand you disagree. Shinealittlelight (talk) 14:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it should be on the term itself. We have articles on those intifadas, we dont need another one here.  nableezy  - 15:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have two minds about this. First, having the Warsaw Uprising sitting there as the only example outside the Arab world would be misleading, as if there was something special about that particular uprising that marked it out from all other non-Arab uprising. On the other hand, I see the same word used for additional uprisings, such as the Jeju uprising in Japan and the Montengro uprising, other uprisings in the Balkans, and the Irish Easter Rebellion. I wouldn't be adverse to a sentence explaining its general application with a few sourced examples. However, I think the itemised list would be most useful restricted to the Arab world; otherwise it will just become a list of uprisings and that is not the point of the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zero0000 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Id be fine with that as well.  nableezy  - 15:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am fine with this too. Shinealittlelight (talk) 15:31, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fine with that as well, will edit accordingly. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Actually if someone can add it since I am constrained by 1RR:
 * Most uprisings globally are referred to as intifada in the Arabic language, including for example, the 1916 Easter Rising (انتفاضة الفصح), the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (انتفاضة غيتو وارسو), and the 1949 Jeju uprising (انتفاضة جيجو). Makeandtoss (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that is OR, you need a source saying that each of those things is referred to as such in Arabic, not an Arabic source just doing so.  nableezy  - 16:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think only the first part could be OR, so I would suggest: "Uprisings are generally referred to as intifada..." Makeandtoss (talk) 16:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is OR as well, but the OR in including any of this is drawing a conclusion that any of those uprisings is referred to in Arabic by those terms through usage, as you do not have a source that says "this is known in Arabic as ...". Like I said earlier, it may well be true, but that doesnt mean it belongs here unless sources make specific note of it.  nableezy  - 17:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The OR part here is in the "most..are" or "are generally", which are not established by some examples of usage. The solution is to weaken it to what the sources actually establish. Namely, that other uprisings "can be" or "are sometimes" called by this word. Zerotalk 00:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Works with me, adding accordingly. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * the current addition of the content goes against Wikipedia values, at best it could be considered a Semantic change or Reappropriation of the word of which some schoolers view as attempt to to white wash the word and in a political endeavor to demonizing Israel. (see :Comparisons_between_Israel_and_Nazi_Germany)
 * as per why your sources did not met the Wikipedia threshold in the first place, all of your source are recently published (at least form 2010) so they are prune to a politics bias.
 * "With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing"
 * in addition, your claims goes against a consensus sentence in the article:
 * "The word intifada was first used in modern times in 1952, when Iraqi parties took to the streets to protest their monarchy, which was known as the Iraqi Intifada."
 * @Makeandtoss you are Once again asked to please remove your content and reach a consensus before re-adding this WP:POINT and please remember Do_not_create_hoaxes 79.176.174.2 (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Since when are we restricted to word usage from the time of the event? This is a made-up criterion. If we took it seriously we would be unable to write any articles on events that occurred before the English language existed. The only error would be to claim that the word was used then without a source; merely writing that it is used now for that past event is not a problem. Zerotalk 15:28, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * it is a restriction that related to the polish history during 2nd world war.
 * "All articles and edits in the topic area of Polish history during World War II (1933-1945) and the history of Jews in Poland are subject to a "reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction. When a source that is not an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution is removed from an article, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard."
 * since there was no consensus reached yet regarding the reliability of the sources you have provided @Makeandtoss you are requested to remove this information and gain consensus on the talk page before reinstate the source. 79.180.47.77 (talk) 09:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You may not participate in this discussion.  nableezy  - 11:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * i canno find any reference by USHMM to intifada, much less in reference to Warsaw Uprising. please explain or sharet Jimrose000 (talk) 17:32, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * i canno find any reference by USHMM to intifada, much less in reference to Warsaw Uprising. please explain or sharet Jimrose000 (talk) 17:32, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the scope of this article?
What is this article about, exactly? I don't really understand why Easter Rising, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, or Jeju uprising are mentioned in one article other than the article about rebellion. Just because these things are sometimes called "intifada" in another language doesn't mean that we should have an article called "intifada" on the English Wikipedia that covers those. As written, this article seems to be a dictionary definition of the Arabic word "intifada," and I don't think that's what Wikipedia articles should be? Levivich (talk) 18:01, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Uprising, as in the concept itself? If so, we already have an article about that (rebellion; uprising is a redirect there).
 * 2) The Arabic word for "rebellion" ("intifada")? If so, that's a WP:NOTDIC violation.
 * 3) Arab rebellions -- which, in English, are often called "intifadas," borrowing the Arabic word for "uprising". If so, it would be a proper sub-article of rebellion (Arab rebellions aka Intifadas makes sense), but then of course Warsaw Uprising would not be mentioned in this article, nor would any other non-Arab uprisings.
 * 4) List of Arab rebellions or List of intifadas would also make sense, and that seems to be what the actual content of this article is. This could also be done as a WP:DAB page.

 * I think the scope of the article should be to explain and discuss the history of the sorts of uprisings for which "intifada" is used in English, roughly a certain subset of Arab uprisings. Note that not every Arab uprising is called an "intifada" in English: we don't call the Arab Spring an intifada, or at least I'm not aware of any source that does. If that's the scope, I think it makes sense to briefly note that the word is used in Arabic more generally; that wouldn't make the article a dictionary definition, I think. I don't think that this note probably belongs in the lead, though (as it currently is). Rather, I think it belongs in the first section on etymology. Shinealittlelight (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article as it currently is deals with Intifada as an Arabic word and to a connected degree the context in which it is used. Therefore, it is not just a definition of the Arabic word as a dictionary would do, but also an elaboration on the context. We have plenty of similar articles including most prominently Allah, a good article, which is not just the definition of the word and etymology but also the accompanying historical usage. As for the lede it is supposed to summarize the body. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Dictionary entries provide the definition of a word and an elaboration on its context, such as examples of usage and etymology, and Allah looks like another dictionary entry to me. Let me ask it another way: what are three good sources for this article? Because I'm not seeing sources about the word "intifada" (as opposed to sources about intifadas themselves), which would suggest the word itself is an encyclopedic topic. Levivich (talk) 13:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If the article is as Makeandtoss says dealing with the Arabic word rather than dealing with a certain subset of Arab uprisings then I agree with Levivich that it’s a dictionary entry in violation of policy. And I think including the minor point about the word in the lead both exacerbates this dictionary feel and also gives undue weight to a minor point. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Shinealittlelight I would appreciate my words being accurately quoted: "deals with Intifada as an Arabic word and to a connected degree the context in which it is used."
 * Encyclopaedia: "Generally speaking, encyclopedia articles focus on factual information concerning the subject named in the article's title; this is unlike dictionary entries, which focus on linguistic information about words, such as their etymology, meaning, pronunciation, use, and grammatical forms".
 * Clearly the article in its current form does not focus on the pronunciation, use, grammatical forms or the word intifada (nor does the article Allah for that matter), so this is not a dictionary entry. The article currently gives factual information about several intifadas and the word's usage in Arabic. It is obviously encyclopaedic. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This article, as currently
 * written, does indeed focus on use and etymology. Most of the article is examples of use, and the remainder is the section on etymology. That's what makes it like a dictionary entry and not an encyclopedia article. It is not obviously encyclopedic. What sources exist that are about the word "intifada" and not about specific intifadas? Levivich (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Examples of use is indeed encyclopaedic as defined above: "factual information concerning the subject". Not only it is a list, but it gives a brief explanation on the context surround each of the intifadas, which further aligns with the definition of Encyclopaedia as "providing summaries of knowledge". Makeandtoss (talk) 15:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The best source for an article on the word itself that I've found is . I can look for others, but trying to get more than the snippet view in google, but even that shows pretty in depth discussion of the word and its usage in English.  nableezy  - 15:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ...and it's a dictionary. To show that a word is encyclopedic, we need non-dictionary sources, don't we? Levivich (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't really. It has a dictionary, but it also goes into the history of the usage beyond what a dictionary would do. It gives in depth coverage to how Arabic words are borrowed in English, and the ways that intifada follow that and in places does not (eg here).  nableezy  - 17:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Historical dictionaries are dictionaries. But, in any case, per WP:NOTDICT the article should not be about the word 'intifada' but about what the word denotes: intifadas. As it stands, I think the article is too much focused on the word for an encyclopedia. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, that isnt what NOTDICT is, NOTDICT means if the only thing we have is what a dictionary would have then that isnt a suitable topic. But WP:WORDISSUBJECT is still a valid encyclopedia topic, especially when sources go beyond what a dictionary has, as in the source above.  nableezy  - 18:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's helpful, thanks. I still think we should be focused on intifadas, not 'intifada'. Shinealittlelight (talk) 18:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Definition and Translation
Suggestion for opening paragraph:

Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة - intifāḍah (literally: "shaking off")) is an Arabic word for a rebellion, uprising, or a resistance movement. In the Palestinian context, understood to mean a civil uprising or an uprising against oppression. 199.101.177.252 (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Revised Opening Paragraph
Suggestion for opening paragraph: Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة - intifāḍah (literally: "shaking off")) is an Arabic word for a rebellion, uprising, or a resistance movement. In the Palestinian context, understood to mean a civil uprising or an uprising against oppression. 199.101.177.252 (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

 * Revised opening reuses both references 199.101.177.252 (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024
62.56.244.129 (talk) 10:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC) Intifada (Arabic: intifada, exact transliteration: antapacha, "renunciation, uprising") is a violent uprising in the Arab world.

Many recognize the Intifada as a violent period, characterized by terrorist acts, by the Palestinians against Israel. The intifadas are one of the most important aspects of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in recent decades.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 10:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

This is absolutely disgusting
It is absolutely abhorrent how the “Intifada” Wikipedia page is worded. It was a series of bus bombings, cafe shootings, stabbing of little children, random bombings at people’s homes. This is all very easily researched and it’s frankly vile that the page frames it as a series of “uprisings against the Israeli occupation.”
 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff): change uprising to violent terrorist attacks that targeted civilians. Take out Wharsaw Ghetto Uprising as an example of “intifada.”
 * Why it should be changed:

Jews are indigenous to Israel and those were not fun uprisings to be romanticized. They were gruesome, bloody, awful targeting of civilians and you keeping it like that encourages more violence towards Jews worldwide and legitimizes calls for a “global intifada.”

Also please NEVER describe the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as an intifada or put it on this page. That is Holocaust inversion, that was a very different situation. Palestinians have been offered their own state many times and have refused each time, instead choosing this path of endless war and destruction while targeting and hiding behind civilians.

Please address immediately, this is unacceptable and dangerous.
 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/the-second-intifada-a-look-back-at-the-palestinian-terror-campaign-642647

2601:602:B80:5340:ED8E:81CA:FFE8:6889 (talk) 04:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Denied This is just a rant. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * To expand on Koavf's response, this is not a well-formed edit request. Editors must be extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic except for making edit requests. Edit requests most likely to succeed are those that are 'Specific, Uncontroversial, Necessary, Sensible' per WP:EDITXY. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Intifada


text:
Talk:Room (disambiguation)

Disambiguation page ?
I think this page might need a disambiguation page for the "other meanings" list. Also, what is up with the blurb for the band "ROOM"? I'm giving that it's own page, and someone else can decide if the band really qualifies. Jestermonkey 11:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Room is also a last name, there is at least one published research with this name in drug studies.

This needs the dicdef of room in a building. Most links will be that meaning. Secretlondon 08:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Room (disambiguation)


text:
Pliny the Younger

Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, born Gaius Caecilius or Gaius Caecilius Cilo (61 – c. 113), better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. Pliny's uncle, Pliny the Elder, helped raise and educate him.

Pliny the Younger wrote hundreds of letters, of which 247 survived, and which are of great historical value. Some are addressed to reigning emperors or to notables such as the historian Tacitus. Pliny served as an imperial magistrate under Trajan (reigned 98–117), and his letters to Trajan provide one of the few surviving records of the relationship between the imperial office and provincial governors.

Pliny rose through a series of civil and military offices, the cursus honorum. He was a friend of the historian Tacitus and might have employed the biographer Suetonius on his staff. Pliny also came into contact with other well-known men of the period, including the philosophers Artemidorus and Euphrates the Stoic, during his time in Syria.

Childhood
Pliny the Younger was born in Novum Comum (Como, Northern Italy) around 61 AD, the son of Lucius Caecilius Cilo, born there, and his wife Plinia Marcella, a sister of Pliny the Elder. He was the grandson of Senator and landowner Gaius Caecilius, revered his uncle, who at this time was extremely famous around the Roman Empire because of his intelligence, and provided sketches of how his uncle worked on the Naturalis Historia.

Cilo died at an early age when Pliny was still young. As a result, the boy probably lived with his mother. His guardian and preceptor in charge of his education was Lucius Verginius Rufus, famed for quelling a revolt against Nero in 68 AD. After being first tutored at home, Pliny went to Rome for further education. There he was taught rhetoric by Quintilian, a great teacher and author, and Nicetes Sacerdos of Smyrna. It was at this time that Pliny became closer to his uncle Pliny the Elder. When Pliny the Younger was 17 or 18 in 79 AD, his uncle Pliny the Elder died attempting to rescue victims of the Vesuvius eruption, and the terms of the Elder Pliny's will passed his estate to his nephew. In the same document, the younger Pliny was adopted by his uncle. As a result, Pliny the Younger changed his name from Gaius Caecilius Cilo to Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus (his official title was Gaius Plinius Luci filius Caecilius Secundus).

There is some evidence that Pliny had a sibling. A memorial erected in Como (now ) repeats the terms of a will by which the aedile Lucius Caecilius Cilo, son of Lucius, established a fund, the interest of which was to buy oil (used for soap) for the baths of the people of Como. The trustees are apparently named in the inscription: "L. Caecilius Valens and P. Caecilius Secundus, sons of Lucius, and the contubernalis Lutulla." The word contubernalis describing Lutulla is the military term meaning "tent-mate", which can only mean that she was living with Lucius, not as his wife. The first man mentioned, L. Caecilius Valens, is probably the older son. Pliny the Younger confirms that he was a trustee for the largesse "of my ancestors". It seems unknown to Pliny the Elder, so Valens' mother was probably not his sister Plinia; perhaps Valens was Lutulla's son from an earlier relationship.

Marriages
Pliny the Younger married three times: first, when he was very young (about 18), to a stepdaughter of Veccius Proculus, who died at age 37; secondly, at an unknown date, to the daughter of Pompeia Celerina; and thirdly to Calpurnia, daughter of Calpurnius and granddaughter of Calpurnius Fabatus of Comum. Letters survive in which Pliny recorded this last marriage taking place, his attachment to Calpurnia, and his sadness when she miscarried their child.

Death
Pliny is thought to have died suddenly during his convention in Bithynia-Pontus, around 113 AD, since no events referred to in his letters date later than that.

Career
Pliny was by birth of equestrian rank, that is, a member of the aristocratic order of equites (knights), the lower (beneath the senatorial order) of the two Roman aristocratic orders that monopolised senior civil and military offices during the early Empire. His career began at the age of 18 and initially followed a normal equestrian route. But, unlike most equestrians, he achieved entry into the upper order by being elected Quaestor in his late twenties. (See Career summary below.)

Pliny was active in the Roman legal system, especially in the sphere of the Roman centumviral court, which dealt with inheritance cases. Later, he was a well-known prosecutor and defender at the trials of a series of provincial governors, including Baebius Massa, governor of Baetica; Marius Priscus, governor of Africa; Gaius Caecilius Classicus, governor of Baetica; and most ironically in light of his later appointment to this province, Gaius Julius Bassus and Varenus Rufus, both governors of Bithynia and Pontus.

Pliny's career is commonly considered as a summary of the main Roman public charges and is the best-documented example from this period, offering proof for many aspects of imperial culture. Effectively, Pliny crossed all the principal fields of the organization of the early Roman Empire. It is an achievement for a man to have not only survived the reigns of several disparate emperors, especially the much-detested Domitian, but also to have risen in rank throughout.

Writings
Pliny wrote his first work, a tragedy in Greek, at age 14. Additionally, in the course of his life, he wrote numerous poems, most of which are lost. He was also known as a notable orator; though he professed himself a follower of Cicero, Pliny's prose was more magniloquent and less direct than Cicero's.

Pliny's only oration that now survives is the Panegyricus Traiani. This was delivered in the Senate in 100 and is a description of Trajan's figure and actions in an adulatory and emphatic form, especially contrasting him with the Emperor Domitian. It is, however, a relevant document that reveals many details about the Emperor's actions in several fields of his administrative power such as taxes, justice, military discipline, and commerce. Recalling the speech in one of his letters, Pliny shrewdly defines his own motives thus: "I hoped in the first place to encourage our Emperor in his virtues by a sincere tribute and, secondly, to show his successors what path to follow to win the same renown, not by offering instruction but by setting his example before them. To proffer advice on an Emperor's duties might be a noble enterprise, but it would be a heavy responsibility verging on insolence, whereas to praise an excellent ruler (optimum principem) and thereby shine a beacon on the path posterity should follow would be equally effective without appearing presumptuous."

Epistulae
The largest surviving body of Pliny's work is his Epistulae (Letters), a series of personal missives directed to his friends and associates. These letters are a unique testimony of Roman administrative history and everyday life in the 1st century AD. Especially noteworthy among the letters are two in which he describes the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in October 79, during which his uncle Pliny the Elder died (Epistulae VI.16, VI.20), and one in which he asks the Emperor for instructions regarding official policy concerning Christians (Epistulae X.96).

Epistles concerning the eruption of Mount Vesuvius
Pliny wrote the two letters describing the eruption of Mount Vesuvius approximately 25 years after the event, and both were sent in response to the request of his friend, the historian Tacitus. The first letter outlines the events preceding the death of Pliny the Elder during the attempted rescue of his friend Rectina. The second letter details the Younger's movements across the same period of time. The two letters have great historical value due to their accurate description of the Vesuvius eruption; Pliny's attention to detail in the letters about Vesuvius is so keen that modern volcanologists describe those types of eruptions as "Plinian eruptions".

Epistle concerning the Christian religion
As the Roman governor of Bithynia-Pontus (now in modern Turkey) Pliny wrote a letter to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and asked for counsel on dealing with Christians. In the letter (Epistulae X.96), Pliny detailed an account of how he conducted trials of suspected Christians who appeared before him as a result of anonymous accusations and asked for the Emperor's guidance on how they should be treated. Pliny had never performed a legal investigation of Christians and thus consulted Trajan in order to be on solid ground regarding his actions. Pliny saved his letters and Trajan's replies and these are the earliest surviving Roman documents to refer to early Christians.

Epistle concerning voting systems
Voting theorists and historians of social choice note Pliny's early mention of how the choice of voting procedure could influence the outcome of an election. On June 24, 105, Pliny wrote a letter to Titius Aristo, where he describes a criminal trial: under the traditional rules of the Senate, there would first be a vote on guilt and then (if the accused were found guilty) on punishment, for which execution and exile were proposed. Of the three distinct proposals, acquittal, exile, and execution, acquittal had the largest number of supporters but not a majority, although exile would have defeated either acquittal or execution in a direct two-way vote. Pliny supported acquittal but anticipated that first guilt and then execution would be chosen under the traditional rules, and so he argued for a novel three-way plurality vote, which would have resulted in acquittal. In response, those in favor of execution withdrew their proposal, the vote defaulted to a traditional majority vote between exile and acquittal, and exile carried.

Manuscripts
The first edition of Pliny's Epistles was published in Italy in 1471. Sometime between 1495 and 1500 Giovanni Giocondo discovered a manuscript in Paris of Pliny's tenth book of letters, containing his correspondence with Trajan, and published it in Paris, dedicating the work to Louis XII. The first complete edition was produced by the press of Aldus Manutius in 1508. (See Editio princeps for details.)

Villas, farms and estates

Being wealthy, Pliny owned many villas and wrote in detail about his villa near Ostia, at Laurentum, Italy. Others included one near Lake Como named "Tragedy" because of its location high on a hill, and, another, "Comedy," on the shores of the lake, so called because it was sited low down, referencing the practice of actors in comedy wearing flat shoes, while those in tragedy wore high-heeled buskins.

Pliny's main estate in Italy and the one he loved best was his Villa "in Tuscis" near San Giustino, Umbria, under the passes of Bocca Trabaria and Bocca Serriola, where wood was harvested for Roman ships and sent to Rome via the Tiber.

As a response to "declining returns from his north Italian farms", Pliny may have contemplated switching the administration of his estate to a sharecropping system called colonia partiaria. Under the sharecropping system, Pliny's slaves would act as overseers.

title: Pliny the Younger