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Talk:Minesweeper (video game)/Archive 1

Comments
Could I get more explanation of the NP-Complete bit? I'm not a mathematician and that question in relation to this game doesn't make sense to me. Could it be made more clear? (I know it's a possibility that I'm just dense). Thanks

Which was unclear, the problem statement, or the concept of NP-Complete itself? I've added some explanation of Np-Completeness. Is it any clearer now?
 * Yes, that makes sense now. Thanks.

One thing that should be clarified is that it doesn't mean that minesweeper is always solvable without guessing. A trivial proof of this is the situation at the beginning of the game. I believe that there are other positions where it is not possible to proceed without guessing, also. --Robert Merkel

 * An example has been added to the article, search for the sentence Minesweeper is not always solvable without guessing -- FvdP 10:10 Aug 11, 2002 (PDT)

To my knowledge, Windows 3.x is the only Windows that has the Minesweeper easter egg. Please edit if you find out otherwise. cprompt

(*) I found the following cheat to work in Windows XP Home (at once answering the next question): type the string xyzzy (lower case) followed by the RIGHT shift key. (The LEFT shift key does not work). Note that ENTER is not necessary. Bcurfs 17:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The xyzzy feature was removed in Win98 but reappeared in Win2k according to the Jargon File -- Paddu 14:46 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * It's on W2K according to my experience as well. --FvdP 21:22, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Most of the articles linking to this page are about various ships. (Though I realise the number of links doesn't equal popularity).

Even still, I was wondering if it would be best to add a disambiguation line to the start of this article. Or to move minesweeper to '"Minesweeper computer game"' or something, and make Minesweeper a disambiguation page. -- Tristanb Anyone have thoughts on the issue?

 * The two contexts are quite different, jarring to the reader to be in one and thrown into the other. I'd go for a Minesweeper (game) (unless there's a board game to disambig from :-) ), keep Minesweeper (ship), and make Minesweeper a disambig page. "Minesweeper" can also be a job (the one that inspired the game), so disambig page will get at least one more entry. Stan 13:23 Apr 27, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, i'm taking your advice and moving Minesweeper to "Minesweeper (game)". Anyone who disagrees, you've got the time it takes me to write a disambiguation page to speak out. :-) Tristanb

I once wrote a 3d version of Minesweeper, in Java. If anyone actually cares, I could send/upload it, so it can be uploaded by someone to a site other than geocities, and possibly link to it, next to the other 3d minesweeper link. Its only geometry is a cube made of 6 grids, mapped to a sphere. (Doubt it's important enough for that, but can't hurt to offer it...) كسيپ Cyp 09:41 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't there a minesweeper game, on the Atari 2600? Rhymeless 22:55, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I added a link to Novel Mines since it seemed strange too use a screencap from the game, but not include a link for it. Also, I happen to like it anyway. 138.253.202.101 19:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Cheats in MS implementations
It's said under "Computer implementations": "When both the left and right mouse buttons are pressed to depress nine squares,  may be pressed to start or stop the timer."

Maybe it doesn't work in my WXP (Home) implementation: I've no tbeen able to active it. (The xyzzy-cheat does =) )

A more detailed explanation (though a little different and not verified by me) can be found on http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/subcheats.html. A rewording of it would have been my first contribution to an article, if only I could have verified it to be true (in my WXP Home)

Can someone test all this?--euyyn 19:31, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've confirmed the xyzzy cheat in XP Professional. I'm sure I've used it on other Windows versions, but I no longer recall the details. The left+right click "cheat" isn't a cheat at all. . . it's in the documentation! Incidentally, it's actually middle click, but most systems have left+right mapped to middle. I just checked KMines, and it requires middle-click. -- Ventura 20:26, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

Note on the cheat: see (*) above Bcurfs 17:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction?
The beginning of the article says ''Most implementations of minesweeper "cheat" in favour of the player by ... changing the board so there are no 50-50 guess situations.''

But later on (in the "Mine probabilities are not enough" section) is explicitly shows a case of 1/2 probability of mine on d, e and I've been in those situations zillions of times.

I am thinking of deleting the claim that there are no 50-50 guess situations, but maybe I misunderstood what the original writer meant. Comments? --Keeves 12:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

www.minesweepers.org is a good reference. It says there are a few non-Microsoft versions that try different means to shield you from having to guess. In my experience with XP and 2000, it still certainly can require a guess. -- 20:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Still unclear about the NP-complete section
I don't think I understand what is meant by "That means it is easy to check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but it is probably hard to find such an arrangement, in some cases." What does it mean to find an arrangement of mines and corresponding numbers? I know this is a sticky issue to describe.

Maybe "...it is easy to quickly and accurately check that a particular arrangement of mines corresponds to the given numbers, but hard to check any arrangement with the same accuracy and brevity." -- 20:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually what was meant was that it is probably hard to find an arrangement of mines given the numbers. I've clarified it. --Damian Yerrick 16:38, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bad example?
In the section Mine probabilities are not enough, you can reach the same solution by turning the probability approach around: if the algorithm at hand focuses on marking most probable mine spots first before clearing any squares, it will still choose the path from the number four to the right. The probability of a mine in any of a,b,c is 2/3, whereas for d,e it is 1/2. --82.181.25.86 12:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Suggest possible extra link
At http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ there's a Minesweeper clone which deliberately generates the mine layout in such a way that the player never has to guess.

I post this here rather than adding it straight to the links section on the actual page because, well, I'm the author and it would seem too much like self-promotion to add a link to my own website. However, since the problem of guessing in Minesweeper is generally a hot topic and authors often seem to try to mitigate it in one way or another (this page already contains a link to "LuckySweeper", for example), it seems to me that people reading the links section might genuinely be interested in a Minesweeper which guarantees to generate guess-free grids. I know I would have been (since in its absence I went to the effort of writing it!).

There's no advertising on my web pages, and the software is all free; I'm not angling to benefit financially from this link. (Neither am I looking to boost my Google-cred, since I'm also the author of more well known software and already have all the Google-cred I can eat.) I've been hesitating for months trying to work out whether even suggesting it on this talk page was too much self-promotion, but decided in the end that the worst that can happen is I get told to go away :-) 80.4.5.74 09:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks both for being so careful about self-promotion, and for writing the program and mentioning it here. I've added it to the page. JesseW, the juggling janitor 10:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just add your link to the clone links. :) Hopsing

Program Crash
I once played so fast, the game crashed. It never happened before. Anyone else? -- THEBlunderbuss 10:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

no, this is normal behavior of windows.--Pixel ;-) 11:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

More pictures?
Would it be okay if I threw up quick, small screenshots for some of the patterns? The wording is rather unclear and a picture says so much more. Crystallina 03:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Definetly we need photos, what is the "wall", edge of game or what? Patcat88 15:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Edge of a cleared area. Crystallina 19:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

History
I couldn't figure out which section of links this should go in, but it does tell some history of minesweeper: http://web.archive.org/web/20030102212301/http://metanoodle.com/minesweeper/donner.html Family Guy Guy 06:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Google Minsweeper
Someone should add a bit about [Google's new Minsweeper] thats collaborative. http://www.google.com/search?q=google+minesweeper&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Vista_minesweeper.jpg
i don't think that fair use aplies to this,ther are alredy some free screenshots.Do we deleat it?--Pixel ;-) 01:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NP Completeness section
I was reading through this section, I was a little confused by the description of how minesweeper is NP complete. I replaced the possible implications of minesweeper NP completeness with a footnote to the site detailing them. What do you guys think? MarkBuckles (talk) 07:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots
Why are all screenshots from KMines? The most popular version of Minesweeper is the one included in Windows and it should be the one depicted. Futurix 11:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The old screenshots (of windows minesweeper, rather than KMines) need to be restored.(user Arjadre)

Indeed they do. Perhaps there was a problem using the windows version of minesweeper itself, and perhaps we should redo the images in a look-alike clone. This would only be for the images that have the "minesweeper" top bar. The quality of those images aren't great anyhow... for now I'll try to restore them. -DB (MS scores 1-14-53) 9:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)(IP adress)

The windows images are not fair use.This is an article about the game minesweaper, not about windows mineseaper.If you think they are ugly find a replacement, in the mean wille kmines screenschots is all we have.--Pixel ;-) 21:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It's exacly the same rules.Only the colors change, and the name.--Pixel ;-) 18:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

 * This article has a least two sections almost exclusively dedicated to Windows version of Minesweeper ("Computer implementations" and "Cheat codes"). This is more then enough for fair use of Windows Minesweeper screenshots. Futurix 23:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So this sections schould go to a separet article.I propose to split them to a dedicated article about windows minesweaper.--Pixel ;-) 00:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * in order to be fair use the article had to refer to windows mineseeper.It don't, it refers to the game in general.--Pixel ;-) 01:24, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, you are wrong - there is no requirement of entire article referring to the subject of screenshots. Current amount of text is perfectly fine.
 * Also, I see no need for separate article about Windows Minesweeper. Futurix 15:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Reed this Fair use criteria."no requirement of entire article referring to the subject of screenshots" wher did you find this ??Elaboret this one.The article would not refer just on screenshots.
 * Windows minesweeper is not the minesweeper.Ters coca cola and pepsi cola,if you have an article on cola you do not put in just coca cola.--Pixel ;-) 15:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Please, read WP:FAIR before editing again - especially section "Acceptable uses" (subsection "Images"). And please stop endless reverts. Futurix 16:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I completely agree. According to the page given by Futurix, "Screenshots from software products" are generally agreed not to be copyright violation. So, it is much better to use screenshots of Microsoft Minesweeper, since it is immediately recognized as "Minesweeper" by the great majority of people. Also, no need to make a separate article about that. So, please stop insisting on this subject and reverting edits. 201.79.84.164 16:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Nope. What the page says is fair use: "Screenshots from software products. For critical commentary." What we have here is more like what the page says is not fair use: "An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses." "A work of art, not so famous as to be iconic, whose theme happens to be the Spanish Civil War, to illustrate an article on the war."

 * What is most important in this matter, if you read the introduction of the page, it says "original images and sound files licensed under the GFDL or in the public domain are greatly preferred to copyrighted media files used under fair use." We can use free images so we should. --TuukkaH 17:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Large part of this article is about Windows Minesweeper, so there is enough "critical commentary" present.
 * As for can part of the rules:
 * 1. As I said - large part of the article is about Windows Minesweeper, and I'm not sure that open-source clone is suitable as replacement.
 * 2. Preferring open-source clones to commercial software may be not compatible with WP:NPOV.
 * I have no idea what to in this case really... Futurix 17:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what to in this case really... Futurix 17:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1.This parts haven't ter place here.
 * 2.The preference is free content over copyrighted.--Pixel ;-) 17:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1. Questionable. This is your POV.
 * 2. This preference created bias, "fair use" should be as acceptable as free content too. Futurix 17:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1.That's why i added the discus tag fot the proposed split.
 * 2.Automaticly, when free content is available,fair use status is lost.--Pixel ;-) 18:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1. One tag per entire article is more then enough.
 * 2. No, it is not.
 * Anyway, I quit the debate - you may continue to push your own POV (afterall it seems that such pro-open-source position is official bias of entire Wikipedia - I see that most general software articles contain only open-source software screenshots (web browser, Spreadsheet) or feature mostly OSS screenshots (Operating systems, Command line interface, GUI)). Futurix 19:08, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * For each image of Windows Minesweeper included, we have to be able to justify that they are required there for "identification purposes" or "critical commentary". We can have one image whose caption is Screenshot of the legendary Microsoft Minesweeper, that's the identification, that's ok. Middle-ground? But the cropped images and images that illustrate general aspects of minesweeper, they aren't in any way critique of Microsoft Minesweeper specifically, that's not ok. Further, we can perfectly communicate and without POV use KMines in those places, because there we are not pushing any POV with respect to any specific implementation, we're discussing mathematical facts. --TuukkaH 17:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You didn't read it carefuly.In order to be fair use, the image have to refer specificaly to that software.The images DON'T refer to ms mineseeper, but to minesweeper.So it's not fair use.The split templates are for discusion, you don't have the right to remove them.The presence of the templates don't implie automaticly, that it will be done, it's to atract attention for the discussion.--Pixel ;-) 17:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair use is not supposed to be used for merely decorative purposes. If it's used for identification, at least, that can be acceptable, but you only need one screenshot for that.  Please see fair use criterion #1: fair-use images can't be used unless "no free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information".  This is arguably the case for at least a single screenshot of MS Minesweeper — I personally suspect that if Brad or Jimbo were to give their opinion, it would be that no MS screenshot is needed, but since I'm neither Brad nor Jimbo and have no ability to enforce that particular view of policy, and I doubt I can convince everyone of that precise point of view, I won't try to endlessly debate the issue. However, be aware that if the images are readded wholesale, I will go ask one of a few admins I know who hang out on IRC, who tend to take a very strict view of fair use, to deal with the issue.  At the very least, this will undoubtedly result in the disputed images being deleted, and possibly blocks for some people as well.  You have been warned. Also note that merely splitting into a different article won't improve your case for fair use.  That is, you couldn't have MS Minesweeper icons for stuff about strategy, or have more than one MS screenshot in the article (except possibly to show different looks, like Vista versus XP). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you for confirmation of systematic bias. Needless to say I'm very dissapointed. Futurix 10:42, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, a commitment to free content is the official bias of Wikipedia, if you would like to call it that. "The Free Encyclopedia" doesn't just mean without cost, it means free content (this is reflected better in other languages' translations of the phrase; see Gratis versus Libre).  This is a founding issue of Wikipedia and will never be changed: see the third pillar of Wikipedia. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:06, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Funny how it conflicts with the second pillar (neutral point of view). I find it ridiculous, that thousands of websites can use screenshots of commercial software, but only Wikipedia forces this stupid rule on itself. There goes objectivity... Oh, well... Futurix 09:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Free ,like in the statue of liberty, versus free like in free bear.--Pixel ;-) 03:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Generic images
To solve this issue once for all, I did by myself images that replace the original ones. The images that I did are not screenshots. They were made by me. So, there is no board skin from any version being shown. The usual and most common colors found on Minesweeper versions were used in the numbers. The images represent properly what is written in the text of the article, and are released to the public domain. RodrigoCamargo 22:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Great ,now we have to chouse betewn the two.The kmines ones or the hand made ones.--Pixel ;-) 02:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * There is really no need to vote on this topic. Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. It seems you also changed the images in the past, and insisted a lot about keeping them. I replaced the images by new ones, able to represent any kind of version of the game Minesweeper, since (as I read that you said before) this article is only about the game, not about a specific version - not Microsoft version, nor KMines version. RodrigoCamargo 02:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you propose to change all free screenshots of wikipedia in generic articles with drawings?My changes in the past where justified.I think that the debate was copyrighted versus free copyright,not windows versus kmines.So only esthetics concern remain.--Pixel ;-) 03:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, I don't propose that. What I propose is to use, on the Minesweeper article, the images that I did - just that. These images are able to represent any version/implementation of the game, in any computer platform/OS. This is for sure, because the rules of Minesweeper are always the same, independently on how the squares or the numbers look. And, as the article is intended to be about the game Minesweeper (and not about any version), it is coherent to have images that illustrate the game (and not any version). Besides that, images released in the public domain are always preferrable. RodrigoCamargo 04:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Then why put drawings here, and not at the auther articles.Drawings for the auther articles too can do that.Usually peopol ,try to do the exacte oposite,they try to get ride of the drawings.The isue here is betewn drawing and a screenshot.At my nolege ther isn't any preference betwean the accepted copyrights,wher did you find that?for example all edits at wikipedia are by default in gfdl(it's reten just under your editing window) not in the PD.--Pixel ;-) 04:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not proposing anything for other articles. Discussions about other articles must be made on the talk page of the other articles. I am proposing to use these images on this article, because I am discussing it on this talk page. I can give some reasons for why the images that I did are more suitable than others in this article: (1) the article is about the game Minesweeper, and these images represent the game (not specifically any version); (2) these images are not drafts, they are well-made; (3) they agree with the neutral point of view rule of Wikipedia; (4) they are released to the public domain; (5) this issue about screenshots was showing to be too much controversial, and a more reasonable and neutral solution was needed. RodrigoCamargo 11:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * If you are the ip adress below,please replace it with your user name.(1)It's a drawing,wikipedia is not sensored,if we folow that logic then we should replace all none specific pictures with drawings on the groweds of neutrality.For example we schould replace all photos of peopol with scethes to avoid depicting the skin color.(2)On this mater everybodys POV is equal (3)redondend with 1 (4)ther's no copyright isue here (5)it's noble from you, but the discusion above was on copyrigt,not windows versus Kmines.--Pixel ;-) 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You pointed out that the old images of the article were copyrighted, and this was a problem. Now, the images that I did are not copyrighted, and the problem is solved. Even better: now the images illustrate the game Minesweeper, instead of giving only an example of one of several versions. So, these images end up definitely the discussion, because they achieve the goal of corresponding to the expectations of both sides of the initial discussion. And more: this goal is achieved in the best possible neutral point of view. Finally, please stop thinking about other articles. I am not suggesting to change or to follow any logic on other articles. I am just solving a problem that existed on this article. And it is solved now. RodrigoCamargo 18:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't invented the copyright isue,simetrical was clearer then me.You didn't understand the previous isue.No the problem is not solved,now we have two sets from wich to chose,one of wich is drawings.Your attemting to censure the previous set on grounds of npov.Thers the same rules for all articles.The same logic is aplicable on all articles,do you see a profusion of drawings in the articles?They are avoided when possible.--Pixel ;-) 07:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The aim of this article is to explain and talk about the game Minesweeper, right? So, there is no need to do it depicting in the images a simple example of one of many versions of minesweeper. Everything should be explained with generic images, which are applicable to all versions. Everybody will understand clearly the explanations of the article, including Windows users, KDE users, Mac users, or whatever. If the reader wants to see an example of a version of the game, he/she just needs to scroll down to the Windows implementations section, and there it is a screenshot of it. Don't try to put a screenshot of a version where it is not needed. The article mentions the Windows version, so a screenshot of it is needed. The article does not mention KDE version, so a screenshot of it is not needed. RodrigoCamargo 12:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the images on a stylistic basis, because they're generic rather than being specific to one (little-used) implementation of the game. Likewise we have diagrams in Chess and so forth. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Chess-it's the pieces from Xboard.So not NPOV,lt's fluch them with other drawings.Esthetics-Well,we can't argue on that.--Pixel ;-) 07:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok:describe me the diferences between the drawings and each screenshot.--Pixel ;-) 10:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it seems you just want to discuss and discuss and discuss endlessly. It seems you don't want to build consensus. RodrigoCamargo 11:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not a rule,but a recomendation(oficial not mine).Always asume good faith from others,in the internet,with peopol you never met,without indirect cues of comunication(fascial expresions,tonality of voice ...),misunderstanding are easyly created.So the "it seems",in the internet is derived by far less information then in real life(so it's more error prone).--Pixel ;-) 13:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is this a way to avoid the question?You didn't do this drawing out of npov conserns but so that the ms mines screenshots are replaced by a look-alike clone,since the originals couldn't stay.If now you telling me that they all look alike,then why did you do them in the first place.If they realy are look-alike, then a real screenshot should do beter then a drawing.If thers a consern about neutrality then the drawings shouldn't be look-alike clones to any version.Because they are drawing,that don't mean that they are automaticly neutral.--Pixel ;-) 13:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am assuming good faith from you, but since you are suggesting weird things, like replacing the mines by an M or using white color for the numbers because of contrast (???), and since you are asking me pointless questions, I am starting to think that the only thing you want is an endless discussion. I created those images to end up the ongoing discussion about screenshots, and the Generic images section is already bigger than the Screenshots one.
 * the M was an example.I ment white color for the backrownd.You now very whell that some descifering is needed for my writings.If i looked untracktable for the copyright isue,is simply because the rules whated that,ther was no compromise to be made,actully i could have simply cold an admin imediatly,and it whould have ended with a exstrimly short section.--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The images that I did are neutral. They contain only the most important part of the game - the board. Not even the smiley and the timer (which are a serious identification of which version is being used) are showing. This way, the images represent none of the several versions. Also, I used a standard font on the numbers, which I never saw on any other version of Minesweeper. I also used the standard colors of the game (and I am not the responsible for the fact that these colors are standard). Let's try not to go further on this discussion. RodrigoCamargo 14:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why did you created the images in the first place?--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He has answered that repeatedly, beginning with his first post in this section. It's true that the style is most similar to Microsoft's, but there's no harm in that, whether or not other versions copy their style.  It's the style most readers are used to, why not use it?  Should we replace the images of chess figures on Chess with letters because they represent only the most dominant way of representing chess figures and leave out greatly different traditions? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * His copyright sayes that it was to replace copyrighted images.In the screenshot section,if we asume that he is the ip adrees he sayes to make look-alike clone ,here he sayes that is for npov,in the proposals he sayes to deleat kmines witout merging as not notable,only the most notable schould remane here(guess how many "notable" versions they are) and ofcource we can't split windows ither since talking about minesweeper is essentially the same as talking about the Microsoft version .Can you remind me what neutral mean,i think i forgot.How can you be neutral and similar at the same time?For the leter thing,it was just a proposal,feel free to propose other flags.Chess thing is over 100 years old.--Pixel ;-) 17:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I propose us to give a break and wait for more people to join the discussion. It is more fair. RodrigoCamargo 19:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If you think that my discussion proposal has a problem say it ther.--Pixel ;-) 22:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Black and white images
Since thers a zilion minesweepers, we should replace the drawings with a black and white one,so that it will resemble no one.--Pixel ;-) 11:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * No, it is definitely not a good idea. These colors are the usual colors that almost all versions of Minesweeper tend to use, even the 3D or triangular/hexagonal ones too. Just check out the images in the gallery. The background is essentially gray, the number "1" is almost always blue, the number "2" is almost always green, "3" is almost always "red", and so on. People quickly get familiarized with these colors, and will be able to recognize them more easily if the images are using colors. I tried to put in the caption of a picture the sentence "in its usual colors", but you reverted my edit. RodrigoCamargo 11:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * compare the screenshots(all) with the drawings and tell me .Wich one resebles the most with the drawings.--Pixel ;-) 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * It is not a matter of resembling or not. You suggested to use black and white images, and I simply said it is not a good idea, since the majority of the available versions has colors, and the majority of them show the usual colors (blue for "1", green for "2", etc). Just that. Not a matter of resembling. RodrigoCamargo 12:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Should i take this as a yes?Yes it's closer to windows then eny other.--Pixel ;-) 13:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also the mines be replaced by an M and the font white for contrast.--Pixel ;-) 13:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That way no one is jalous.--Pixel ;-) 13:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Microsoft Minesweeper, Minesweeper on Vista, KMines, Minesweeper in Firefox, Gnome Mines, Xdémineur, both Minesweeper 3D versions, the hexagonal version, and XMines, as well as hundreds of other versions available for download use the same standard of colors: gray background, blue "1", green "2", red "3", etc. It is normal that every game developer who wants to make a new version will tend to use these same colors. So, it is very incoherent to have black and white images on the article. I disagree with that. Also, replacing the mines by an M and making the font white is, in my opinion, very anti-intuitive. I disagree with that too. RodrigoCamargo 15:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This is half the story.You find it anti intuative simply because the only version you now is the MS one.--Pixel ;-) 18:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion ended

Split off MS Minesweeper
This article is about minesweeper, not microsoft minesweeper.It schould have it wone article.It's like having the coca cola article inside the cola article.--Pixel ;-) 17:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) I agree. However, we have to balance here between the generality of the topic, and the fact that it owes most of its notability to Microsoft Minesweeper. Even KMines has its own article, so why not the most popular version? "Minesweeper's new look for Windows Vista Beta 2." doesn't belong here. Neither do the small details of its configuration or cheat codes. On the other hand, I think at least some of the best times should stay here as they are represenative of minesweepers in general. --TuukkaH 18:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) i Disagree agree with you,i didn't ment to remove every thing complitly,also a regroup of the windows stuf in a single section seems to me apropriete.for the best times i agree with you, i just put the more relevant tag i could find,but i do beleave that all don't belong here.--Pixel ;-) 19:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC) --Pixel ;-) 23:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Disagree for now. The article is short enough that it could simply have a section under the heading of "Microsoft Minesweeper". mwazzap 09:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * see point 2 at merge proposal--Pixel ;-) 17:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Disagree. I don't think there's enough MS-specific stuff to split, given the article's length.  Keep it all together for now. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Disagree until the Microsoft section is large enough to get an article of it's own. Even then, it's still a hard choice. The Windows version is exactly like the regular, unmodified Minesweeper in everything except how it looks. Is that really enough for another article?--❊ Đǣţĥ ɱøťőŕ  ☎  20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Disagree. Talking about the game Minesweeper is almost essentially the same as talking about the Microsoft version of Minesweeper, since this version is present in the majority of computers. Also, there are not many things for now to put in an article only about Microsoft Minesweeper. 201.79.84.164 21:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Disagree. It seems like a case of MS hating is going on if we fold in other versions of minesweeper and then move out the MS one.
 * The proposal for merge by mwazaap was done after the split proposal,and he was not in favor of the split.--Pixel ;-) 03:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has ended--Pixel ;-) 16:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge in KMines
I have suggested that KMines be merged into Minesweeper (computer game). As per Merge, the KMines article overlaps greatly with the Minesweeper article and has little it could say for itself on its own. mwazzap 09:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems that kmines is part of this series of articles Kdegames.So a merge here is problematic.Do you reconcider your proposals?--Pixel ;-) 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) Support mwazzap 09:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support I don't beleave that it realy has it place in the mane article.Ther's a zilion clones of minesweeper.Even first year students are expected to rwite a 3D vertion.It's not possible to put all here.I think that eventually kmines should go at kde games or something.Windows version at bundled games of windows or something.But i'm ready to support the merge of everything here intil they get biger, or be merged at an other article.--Pixel ;-) 18:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support, redirect that here and make note of any KDE-specific stuff. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Mega Support By itself it's just a small line of text describing a different type of Minesweeper. If you do this, why not just seperate every single version of Minesweeper into different articles? If you merge it, at least it can make the article a bit better.--❊ Đǣţĥ ɱøťőŕ  ☎  20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not posible to have an article about all mineswepers.It's not possible to put all of them in the article ither.It's just too easy to wright(the programme i mean),first year students are suposed to wright a 3D version.I propose to pull all here for now(variants too) because we don't have much material.I sujest to orginize the article acording to operating systems/gui.I'm not aware of any independent minesweeper that could be considered notable.In the variant section we should put examples of different implementations,not specific programs.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) Disagree. KMines is only one of several versions of the game Minesweeper. If any of these versions should be mentioned in the article about the game Minesweeper, they should be the most famous/popular ones. For sure the Microsoft version is famous/popular enough to be mentioned, but definitely KMines not. By the way, I'm not even sure if KMines has enough importance to have its own article on Wikipedia. 201.79.84.164 21:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's widespread because it's bundeled with windows.I wouldn't say popular.Kmines is not a stand alone programme(at my noleg),it is bundled with a paquage of games for KDE.So if we say windows blablabla,KDE blablabla,it should be good.--Pixel ;-) 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. To reiterate, it does clearly qualify for 2 (arguably 3) of the four reasons for a merge listed on Merge: "large overlap", "very short and cannot or should not be expanded terribly much", and (arguably) "requires the background material or context from a broader article". mwazzap 07:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * However, first, it must be considered that it is not completely sure about if the KMines article really qualifies for existing. Maybe it should be deleted instead of merged. This discussion should go on the talk page of that article RodrigoCamargo 11:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal split and merge windows minesweeper in microsoft games pakage
We split windows stuf and we merge them with the other window games in a singel article(ms freecel,ms solitair,and the fourth that i forgot what it was)--Pixel ;-) 16:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless there's something that connects those four (the last is Hearts, by the way) other than mere inclusion in the OS, I'm not sure why there needs to be an article on them collectively. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Wher to put them then?--Pixel ;-) 23:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I also think there is no need to group all of them in a new article. These are different games, and will not be very well explained in a single article. RodrigoCamargo 23:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why ther will not be well explained.Ther's plenty of room in one article.
 * Minesweeper can be explained in Minesweeper article, Freecel can be explained in Freecel article, and so on. No reason to join all of them in a single explanation. These are different games. Moreover, the four games are not connected in a kind of package. So, they don't need to be explained all together.RodrigoCamargo 00:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal Merge variants
Too small and ther isn't much trafic on this page.--Pixel ;-) 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

supporthouba houba--Pixel ;-) 19:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on Proposals for drawings/screenshots
So kmines should be exposed nowere.Can i remove your drawings from the article then(thers no concencus on them)?Whell,one of them have to be first.You can rename your drawings,if they are not drawing what are they?And they are look alike clones,why did you do them in the first place.You say that they represent every version,i say that they don't,what do you propose for the section.I still didn't hear your offer for compromise.--Pixel ;-) 19:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

 * The images that I did (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot) were hand made. I didn't draw them. I didn't use paper and pencil. I made them on a computer (as well as the image on the KMines screenshot was also made by its author).

So,whay should your version,should be concidered neutral?Just because thers no executable?

And up to now, these images are on the article for a long time, and nobody is complaining about them. On the contrary, at least one person expressed approval for it. And concerning your question "why did you do them in the first place?", I see you already asked it many times, and I already responded many times, too. Take a look at the section Generic images above. I'll quote a part of that section: RodrigoCamargo 22:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC) "Why did you created the images in the first place?--Pixel ;-) 18:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC) He has answered that repeatedly, beginning with his first post in this section. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:05, 3 September 2006 (UTC)"

nobody is complainingI'm nobody?because i didn't revert them it don't mean that i accept them.Put back kmines stuf for a week and we'll see.Ther's no concencus.Do you whant that i revert them so that you can say that ther's no concencus?--Pixel ;-) 22:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I don't. As I already said above, and as Wikipedia recommends, I propose us to give a break and wait for more people to join the discussion. It is more fair. RodrigoCamargo 23:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * O yes ,so that you can claim later that ther is a concesus on the images.--Pixel ;-) 18:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"I did this image to replace a possibly copyrighted image"

and how was the ip adress in the screenshot section. how do you whant to coal them?--Pixel ;-) 22:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposals for drawings/screenshots
Should the images be drawings or screenchots?If it to be drawings, in wich style.If it to be a screenshot wich version?--Pixel ;-) 22:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

For now available

It seems that you are trying to start a votation implicitly. This exposure of the two images as if they were "options", or "alternatives", or "choices", is a strong evidence of that. Notice that you even changed the order of the images, placing the image you support in first place, as if you were trying to "induce" others to "vote" on it. Notice also that you are trying to depreciate the images you don't support, by calling them simply as "drawings", and saying they look like the Microsoft version, while they actually represent every version. Remember that things are not decided by voting on Wikipedia, but by building consensus. Consider removing or remodelling this section to meet Wikipedia's standards. RodrigoCamargo 18:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The drawings are simpler. They focus the reader away from the exact implementation and toward the general idea, removing UI that has nothing to do with the game itself and is adequately showcased in the gallery at the bottom of the article. They also aren't uglier, which (for instance) a black and white image would be. If you would like to come up with a better-looking diagram, go ahead, but as far as Kmines versus Rodrigo's versions go, I prefer Rodrigo's. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 00:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You can crunch them in no time.It's not a vote betwen the two,you can do proposals too,or modified versions.UI?you mean the window?i don't see what exacly is UI.Why should they be diagrams?Have a pic in the gallery.Or find one on the internet.Or make your won.--Pixel ;-) 00:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer the drawings to any of the other options so far presented. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 21:56, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Rodrigo's drawings are simple, to the point, and faithful to the original minesweeper game without infringing on Microsoft's copyrights. Like it or not, the only real minesweeper is Windows minesweeper and everything else, including KMines, is a variant. The 3's in KMines are yellow, rather than red, and therefore unfaithful to windows minesweeper. In addition, in the 3BV part of the article, I have yet to see a KMines screenshot with the correct labeled 3BV. For instance, the beginner KMines board with a labeled 3BV of 19 actually has a 3BV of 20. In contrast, Rodrigo's drawings are labeled accurately. In addition, it is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs. Rodrigo's drawings are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other. In short, the KMines screenshots should be removed and Rodrigo's drawings should be kept. --Arjadre 03:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I reconted several times,it seems that it is really 19.Rodrigo Silveira Camargo sais that his stuf are neutral and don't look to any particular version,you said the exact oposit ."is unfair to include screenshots of KMines without including screenshots of other minesweeper programs", you are proposing?."are good because they to not advertise one minesweeper variant over any other",aren't you contradicting your self?--Pixel ;-) 18:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that you cannot accurately calculate the 3BV of a beginner board suggests that you may not have the necessary skill to create screenshots to illustate this article (Dick--PIXEL).The 3BV of that beginner board is 20, and I'm sure Rodrigo will back me up on that. Personal attacks aside, my point in my last post (which you quoted and said contradicted itself) is that the only fair way to include screenshots in this article is to either a) use screenshots of windows minesweeper (which cannot be done because of copyright issues), b) include screenshots of every minesweeper variant so that none are left out (which is impractical due to the sheer number of clones out there), or c) use Rodrigo's drawings, which are accurate, unbiased, and concise. To me, c is the clear choice.--Arjadre 04:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How can they be "unbiased" and "faithful to the original" at the same time?--Pixel ;-) 13:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sir Pixel... you really irritate me. It's obvious that you are just advertising for your clone.  We removed the "copyright forbidden" images, and replaced them with non winmine screenshots.  Like it or not, we replaced your blatant advertisements with something that was faithful to the game without violating said "copyright".  I don't buy the fact that minesweeper is copyrighted, because then EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegal because they would all be recreations of a copyrighted material.  All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshots (or a very close version called minesweeper arbiter), instead of your nonstandard and quite inferior clone (come back to me with decimal totals, video recording, a standard skin, and history creation before you call your clone superior).  Bottom line is that we need to show the users a STANDARD and not an IMITATION.  There are no copyright rules.  -DB (1-14-53) - 20:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * you really irritate meI'm pleased to hear that.just advertisingI never promoted my particular screenshots.don't buy the fact thatIf you don't beleave me,why you don't just put them back?EVERY SCREEN SHOT on this page would be illegalYour ignorance on the copyright isue is blatant,recreations of copyrighted matirial is not iligal.All minesweeper accomplishments in the past few years have been accomplished on the clone that we include on the screenshotsdon't see what you mean?call your clone superior this was never an isue here.I resume that your only argument is esthetics?--Pixel ;-) 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You have been heavily involved in the KMines wiki page and you will not stop editing your kmines back into the article. We HAVE put them back, and you just replace them again.  Pure advertisement.  What I mean is world records, Sub50s and even Sub60s on expert, etc etc.  This is why we need to keep the screenshots as the standard, IMC APPROVED clone.  -DB (1-14-53) - 22:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Untitled
Restructuring the talk page. -FunnyMan 16:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Can't even solve beginners maze
I have tried for ever and I think only people who go to an Ivy League college can figure out this game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.96.53 (talk) 02:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC) I don't think that has anything to do with improving the article. 69.136.72.16 (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Minestein
Why is there no mention of such variants as Minestein? It has a different set of algorithms that create puzzles that can always be solved logically, no guessing required. Link: http://sourgumdrop.org.uk/minestein_1.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.25.143 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

History / solvers
Came accidentally to this site.. I wrote a solver at year 1995 and just thought if it is the first solver ever made for the minesweeper game. you can still find it from http://www.math.sc.chula.ac.th/~wacharin/old/games/winmine.html. The program name is minewalker. I think I could still find the source code for the solver if anyone is interested. At that time I had no idea of the theory of the solving algoritm. I made it by using simple group mathematics. As far as I know, it will find all solveable squares. Btw, the email address mentioned on the page is old; you can find me from firstname.lastname@gmail.com (you can find my name from the link). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.225.142 (talk) 20:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
The Thrill Digger mini-game within the Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has strong similarities to Minesweeper. The biggest differences include:

1: The game doesn't keep track of the numbers for you, suggesting you should have paper and pencil handy to keep track of the different rupee colors you dig up.

2: Aside from green rupees always meaning there are no bombs near that rupee, the numbers are slightly randomized. Blue has 1 or 2 bombs nearby, red has 3 or 4, silver has 5 or 6, and gold has 7 or 8.

3: No timer whatsoever; the goal of the mini-game is to grab as many rupees as you can before you detonate a bomb by digging it up. Rupoors also appear from time to time, taking positions that count as bombs for the purpose of the type of the surrounding rupees. While they reduce your rupee total, they do not end the game in any way.

4: If you get all of the rupees without detonating a bomb (whether you get rupoors or not), the game immediately ends, and link gains a "Rare Treasure" (a kind of in-game crafting item). It costs 30, 50, or 70 rupees to start depending on which difficulty level you choose, and however many rupees you manage to pick up are awarded back to you upon completion of the game, whether it is a profit or a loss.

Any objections to at least throwing in a mention (albeit maybe not with as much detail as above) under History under Runescape and Mole Control? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.25.143 (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal for merge of Minesweeper Variants
All relevant info on mineseeper is already here,plus the variants article is more of a stub.--Pixel ;-) 21:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Where did the Minesweeper Variants page go? Was it deleted?  It certainly hasn't been merged as the main page makes little mention of variants.  Doesn't a list of variants have encyclopaedic value?  It's part of the greater minesweeper pop culture, and I imagine many people looking up minesweeper here would be keen to read about the various implementations.  There used to be quite a decent page on this.

And now that variants don't seem to be mentioned, how come the "See Also" section links to just two obscure variants: "Doki Doki Idol Star Shaker Remix" and "SquarO"? 202.164.195.173 (talk) 06:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Screenshot discussion
Summarizing old discussions in the hopes of helping us find a concensus. Feel free to correct a section of the summary if you feel that it doesn't accuarely reflect the issue. Please keep further comments to the section. - FunnyMan 16:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I gave you ten days to pull this back in line on your own, but it just degenerated, so I'm stepping back in. The summary is not a place for discussion, treat it more like an article.  If you feel something is wrong with the summary, fix it.  Pro and con are separate for a reason, keep them separate.  If you want to counter a Pro statement, file that under Con, and vice versa.  And don't sign the summary, it's impersonal.  Discussion goes under.

Summary
What screenshots should be used to illustrate this article?

Windows minesweeper screenshots
Pros: Cons:
 * Most well-known version of the game.
 * Screenshots will be easily recognizable.
 * Most readers won't use any other version
 * Screenshot of non-free software, so would have to be used under fair use.
 * Fair use isn't desirable because:
 * Fair use laws vary from country to country.
 * This is a free encyclopedia, so free content is prefered. See the first item under WP:FAIR.
 * There are concerns as to whether fair use applies in this case.
 * Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes Microsoft software.

KMines or other open-source software screenshots
Pros:
 * Screenshot of free software, clearly in line with the GFDL and copyright law.
 * Similar enough to the Windows variant to be recognizable.

Cons:
 * Less common version of the game.
 * Most readers will not have used this version.
 * The screenshots may be harder to recognize, despite similarities.
 * For instance, the numbers are colored completely differently.
 * Might not be in-line with WP:NPOV because it promotes open source software.

a note:  color of the number in microsoft version is non-coincidentally( 1/8! ) that color in gwbasic ega palet, color(1)=blue, color(2)=green, color(3)=red... etc. this may not be glaringly obvious to people without msdos background... so if the colors allude to the ones in the microsoft version it may or may not be a coincidence and copyright worries arent quite as worrisome. Petetyj 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Custom images
RodrigoCamargo was kind enough to create a custom set of images for the article.

Pros: Cons:
 * Similar enough to the any major variant to be recognizable.
 * Released to public domain, clearly in line with the GFDL and copyright law.
 * PD images can be freely edited to make them more generic.
 * Clearly in-line with WP:NPOV because they don't directly favor any particular version of the software.
 * The graphics will not match those of any minsweeper version. This may make them harder to recognize, despite the similarities.
 * The original images use the coloring from the windows version, which is unfair and needs to be fixed.

Further discussion
''I've edited some of the below comments to help clarity. In the case of Pixel ;-), this is to even the playing field, as he has (by his own admission, though I've lost the link) a mental disability, which makes his written English at times nearly unreadable. In other cases, this is due to a change of context, as the comments were originally placed in the summary section above. All changes are marked, with a link to the original. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)''

My own inclination would be to use the custom images for illustrating aspects of the rules and strategy (as they are version independant), an open-source one as the main article image (as a sample version that avoids the fair use issues), and images from each program for a section discussing it. Using the MS minesweeper image in that context is clearly fair use and in-line with WP:FAIR. -FunnyMan 16:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not that simple. The "custom made" images only look like many variants because they look like windows version.  One group argues that all the other variants are worthless, and so they shouldn't be mentioned at all here, only the windows version.  They even wanted the kmines article to be deleted outright, without being merged in.  I find this a bit extreme.--Pixel ;-) 21:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC) (edited for clarity, FunnyMan.  Original)
 * I find that POV. The images are released to public domain, so we can tweak them to be more fair.  How about making the numbers black & white, for a start?  Looking at the archive again, I see that you actually proposed that at one point.  Seems logical to me.  The colors aren't really all that important (see below).  Maybe we could use B&W for most of the image but colored numbers/fields to highlight areas of interest.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The KMines screenshots are hardly similar, due to the blatantly different colored numbers. 207.237.35.22 01:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)Arjadre (edited for clarity after moving, FunnyMan. Original)
 * Guess what? The colors aren't really all that important.  Their purpose is to aid in distinguishing one number from another while playing, while still being readable.  People are used to seeing objects in different colors, they will recognize the overall structure of the image.  Mind, I'm not fond of the KMines colors, they're not distinct enough.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's POV, I find the colours to be very important, in particular, the windows colours, which are mimicked by all the major clones anyway, with Kmines seemingly the only (barely) noticable exception.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The KMines images are not IMC (International Minesweeper Committee) approved. (edited for clarity after moving, FunnyMan. Original)
 * And the custom images are? What this have to do with the issue? -- Pixel ;-) 15:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC) (edited for clarity after moving, FunnyMan. Original)
 * International Minesweeper Committee fails the Google test. When Google next scans this page, that name's occurance will go up by 50% internet wide (it was on two pages before, one of them their own, and the other a glossary from a site way below the radar).  To me, this is a sign of a person or group of people who decided to adopt a fancy-sounding name and claim to be an authority.  If they were actually important, it would be discussed in other places on the web.  Therefore, I've pulled this out of the summary.  You want it back, prove that there's a reason we should care at all what the so-called "International" Minesweeper Committee thinks.  Fancy names don't lend any authority. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes they do. I suggest you visit http://www.metanoodle.com/minesweeper (The Authoritative Minesweeper) or http://www.planet-minesweeper.com (Planet Minesweeper) and ask what the IMC is.  You'd be surprised.  All of the record holders and the elite at this game have to follow by those standards to even be recognized.  Also: you want a google test?  Google "minesweeper".  -- DB 01:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...A group of (talented Minesweeper) users on a site following certain standards does not make those standards 'authoritative' in any way. The discussion is about making sure the images are suitable for GFDL, fair use, NPOV, etc... 40.0.40.10 18:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that the custom images are "Similar enough to the any major variant to be recognizable." and then that "The graphics will not match those of any minsweeper version. This may make them harder to recognize, despite the similarities."? And which variants are the "major variants", just the windows one? --Pixel ;-) 21:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC) (edited for clarity after move, FunnyMan. Original)
 * It's a tradeoff. The more an image looks generic, the less it looks like any specific version.  As to the "major varients", I'm going by the images at the bottom of the article.  They're different stylistically (colors, shading, font, flag/mine images), but the overall setup (grid, numbers, difference between 0 and unclicked, flags, mines) is the same in all of them, even the more exotic variants. -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

(in response to the custom images looking like the windows version) Oh, you mean the original version? The one that this article is BASED ON? DB (1-14-53) 05:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * First, the article should be neutral and discuss the game in general. The Windows version is the most popular variant, yes, but the Christian variant is the most popular variant of religion, and I don't see that article using Christian symbols to illustrate everything.  In fact, I don't see any Christian symbols on that page at all.  Second, the article doesn't seem to be certain which variant of Minesweeper is the original, it looks like it might have been a variant that ran on the Tektronix 4051, whatever system that was.  -FunnyMan 05:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's flawed reasoning, christianity is the most popular variant of religion but only just, and perhaps if there were a religion with the demographic overwhelming dominance of windows minesweeper (95% as a conservative estimate, with the major clones (that have the same look as winmine) and the linux version taking up most of the rest, as opposed to 33% for christianity) there would be pictures with that religion displayed all throughout that article. I say either winmine images, or something close enough to the winmine look to closely resemble it (including the correct colours) but slightly different to avoid NPOV and copy write issues.SchuBomb 15:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, as can be found on the archives of this talk page, I said I was going to give a break on the then-going discussion about the images I did. Considering that (1) many months passed since then; (2) the almost exclusively single Wikipedia user that didn't support that images, Pixel, has been blocked indefinitely from Wikipedia for strongly breaking its rules; and (3) during this time, a reasonable number of users expressed their approval for the images here on the talk page, then I put them back today. RodrigoCamargo 22:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction
Intro:
 * Minesweeper is a single-player computer game invented by Robert Donner in 1989.

History:
 * There was a version on a Tektronix 4051 around 1981, but the tradition of passing around a 'games tape' goes back to at least 1973 [1]. This tape even contains a 3D version of minesweeper. The author of this game, David Ahl [2] is a crucial figure in the early history of computer games.

So who really invented it, and when? Looks like a contradiction to me. -FunnyMan 05:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Indeed. The Tektronix claim is the only one with citation... --anskas 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we sort out this contradiction? I will remove the Robert Donner claim in 24 hours unless some citation is provided. —anskas 21:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I am an idiot. —anskas 02:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

To avoid further confusion: The contraciction has been resolved. -FunnyMan 04:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Numbers?
Curious: could the squares with the numbers perhaps better be referred to by numerals instead of words? For example, Where there is a row of twos by a wall, four twos with ones at the ends means that the mines are beside the two middle twos, and beside the ones adjacent to the twos... being changed to Where there is a row of 2s by a wall, four 2s with 1s at the ends means that the mines are beside the two middle 2s, and beside the 1s adjacent to the 2s... Nyttend 18:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

sounds good to me ... but im a newbie Petetyj 23:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Windows Minesweeper Origin
I submitted the first version to use a windows-oriented user interface (SunWindows) to the old Usenet group comp.sources.games back in 1987; as a citation check out:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sources.games/browse_thread/thread/7c4b17a2c166a17d/7a7fb5ca34300444?lnk=st&q=xmines+Frank+Waters+Road&rnum=2&hl=en#7a7fb5ca34300444

I noticed some coworkers playing rlogic on a DOS machine in a neighboring cubicle; thought it looked like fun, so I wrote a version for Sun workstations (starting by carving up a network chess game I had written earlier, called nchess).

I don't know for sure, but I have reason to believe that the Microsoft game is probably inspired more by the game I wrote than by rlogic. The ability to flag squares as either verboten or as safe were from my original version of mines, which used various buttons (3-button mice on Suns, which stemmed from the old Smalltalk usage) for that purpose.

The original sources were ported to Mac and [X Window]. xmines still lives on, even though the old Mac and SunWindows versions have long gone into the bit bucket...

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.145.254 (talk • contribs) 04:49, October 17, 2006 (UTC).

Sorry; I believe I may have mistakenly edited a previous person's comment rather than creating a new one (haven't really paid much attention to wikipedia commentary before; please don't hurt me).

The missing link in the minesweeper debate - which is a bit surprising to see, really, after all these years, may be the mines program I wrote and submitted to the comp.sources.game Usenet newsgroup back in 1987. The genesis of mines was seeing some coworkers playing rlogic in a neighboring cubicle, then writing a minesweeper game for SunWindows immediately afterward. (Curiously, I have never played rlogic; I just watched them play for a couple of minutes.)

The original Usenet postings are apparently disappearing from the web, but still seem to be cached here and there. A google search for mines, plus my old home address (e.g., google search for "mines Frank Waters Road") is about the only proof of when the postings were made (though a pretty good one).

The game was pretty simple; the objective was to make it from the upper-left to lower-right corner in a fixed grid of 16x16 squares. A user could specify the number of mines in the entire grid; reachability was not guaranteed. A feature that was new to mines (not in rlogic as far as I know, though then again, I never actually played the game) was the ability to flag squares as known to be safe or as "known" to have a mine, making it harder to accidentally get blown up by poor mouse skills. The appearance of this same feature a couple years later in the Microsoft version has always made me suspect that they saw the mines version as well (yes, Microsoft did have Sun workstations in those days, I think; though only Robert Donner could really tell us whether this was where they got the idea!)

I have some really old screenshots printed out in a box somewhere... If I find any, I'll add some images to this commentary.

p.s. - as a citation, see:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sources.games/browse_thread/thread/7c4b17a2c166a17d/7a7fb5ca34300444?lnk=st&q=mines+%22Frank+Waters+Road%22&rnum=3&hl=en#7a7fb5ca34300444

not sure if all parts of the original shar (shell archive) are still squirreled away where google can see them, but I do still probably have the original sources somewhere (as if it really matters!)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wikitoma (talk • contribs) 05:16, October 17, 2006 (UTC).

 * Don't worry too much about putting comments in the wrong spot, that's easy to fix. Please do remember to sign and date your comments with something like --~, as adding that back in is somewhat more annoying.

 * Please do try to find the images, that would make a great comparison shot for the article, especially since you're more than qualified to put them out under the GFDL for us. The source code is also interesting, and if you're comfortable with it, it'd be great to see you put that out on Wikisource as a historical document.  Keep in mind that Wikisource is also under the GFDL, and you might want to consider allowing GPL as well, in case someone wants to use the code.

 * I'll make some changes to the article in just a moment to reflect the new information. Thank you very much for bringing this to us! -FunnyMan 05:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)  (Update: Done!  Thanks again.  -FunnyMan 06:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC))

Im familliar with the punch boards, they are not related to minesweeper. punch boards you buy the board or some number of holes in the board to get a chance at winning a prize. bingo keno lotto.

A punchboard is a gambeling device with no way to preidct the Mine/prize/youlose locations.

a confederate or shill can know the location of the prize holes and can win often tomake sure the marks can pay their $1 to get a 1:100 chance to win $25 the board can be honest by appearance 99 of 100 holes can have the you lose notice with the code known only to the shill or the shill can play only with the rigged boards. the board salesman can sell the bord for $30 to the bar owner who sees the $70 profit and when a stranger comes to town a week later and gets the jackpot after trying 3 punches when the other regular coustomers have been paying their $ every day for a week .... these were typically 1000 holes with prizes of 5 10 25 50 and 100 so when a stranger wins the $ 100 and a different stranger wins the $50 and the regulars get the other lower prizes a lot more of the small prizes and generally a prize for the person who buys the last hole in case some smart mark gets the idea that all the prizes have been won.

mine sweeper is a logic stragety where game chance is only involved in the first click (microsoft version this is the second click) and there are some unresolvable posistions on edges and corners (chance but many boards can be salved with logic)

perhaps the expert board is harder because its a rectangle and has more edgetiles than a square, in addition to the increased numbers of mines. Perhaps theres a punchboard article here this could go into? gambeling? mislabeled gaming by casino owners mislabeled as insurance by insurance companies and politicians

games involve stratgety or chance and have winners/losers in equal numbers.

gambeling, insurance appear to have chance or stragety but only the sponser of the "Game" can win. marks are called losers, suckers, coustmers, constituitants or investors.

Petetyj 05:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Minesweeper Flags
Should the MSN game be mentioned? Jr W 11:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I would say so. I actually came to the discussion page to bring exactly that up!

Citations in Best Times Section
None of the best times are cited. I'm particularly concerned that Jaymin Berg is accused of falsifying screenshots without citation. If it's untrue, it's libellous. It also says "some ... have been known to falsify records by altering screenshots..." but Berg is the only name given; this is "weasel worded." I'm going to put an "unreferencedsect" on the whole section. DrGaellon 15:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The citation for the best times is in the linked (in that section) best-ever list. As for cheating information, I could attempt to get the people who receive the record submissions to make a page about that that can be referenced.SchuBomb 23:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not at all clear. A proper Wikipedia citation should be entered to link that site - and that site is hardly definitive, since it's a self-organized group with no official authority. DrGaellon 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * First of all, you won't find a more definitive link right now, and second, that it has no official authority is also untrue, it is run by one of the members of the IMC (International Minesweeper Comittee), the organisation (elected by the community) that accepts or rejects scores.SchuBomb 08:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

About my best times edit: the missing cititation in the article in the best times section the similutation could be true i never read it anywhere before is unclear if its 9x9 or 8x8

the results could be enterly true ie 1:1000 chance in a corner 1:5000 in the middle it all depends on how the program cheats after you click somewhere.

1) click somewhere in the middle pick a number from 0to8 as the number of surrounding mines generate the rest of the grid. 2) click somewhere generate a random grid dont allow a mine in the first square

the program works somewhere between those 2 since the results of the sim dont approach either. why anyone would simulate a cheating strategy to cheat a cheating program? I think a 10 sec time is good 1 sec isnt a time ... some of the other programs time to 1/10 sec.  Petetyj 00:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Petey3 is right and I also wonder why there is a bother about minesweeper since it is not a "fair" game. Imagine how long chess would be played, if there were a situation whereby after the opening move by white, black could checkmate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.54.37.223 (talk) 03:50, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Two sections, only one needed
I renamed the "Linux implementations" section to "FOSS implementations" because GNOME and KDE also runs on other platforms. But now I notice that there is a section called "Variants". Why isn't this one big section? I think that information on other spcific ports that the Windows one is essential. By that I mean KMines, GNOME Mines, Winesweeper 3D. --Ysangkok 20:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Windows Minesweeper IS the popular varient. since its pretty clear D.Ahl wrote one of the origionals. before GUI. before CP/m Before MSdos. Perhaps any version that wont run on an IBM7090 with a TTY model 10 terminal is a varient. CRT terminals save a LOT of trees.

This is supposed to be an article on the game not on the platform or the color of the clues or the weeks fastest player(i could probably be that but im over 11 now) I agree or agree on one section holds all "THE GAME" now commonly called minesweeper. Varients 2D hex tiles, grids constructed with no ambiguous clue patterns, torroidal grid , cylindrical grid, i saw one on a mac with square tiles and H, L and T shaped grids(a bummer more edges and corners)

Varients 3D cubical grid, tetrahedral grid Petetyj 01:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Double-square analysis
"five twos in the same setting means that all twos except the centermost two are beside mines."

This makes no sense - in a row of five, no two can be called the "centermost".

EDIT: Never mind; I've realised now that it means the centremost square labelled as "two". I think this might require clarification; possibly giving the values of squares numerical designations, as one user above suggested (e.g. "2" instead of "two")?

Branfish 09:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

WRAPFIELD cheat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CH-Kx2sl9c

Apparently theres a secret mode in minesweeper in which the field acts as a sphere transformed into a plane (essentially a Mercator projection of the field). I suck too much at minesweeper to have tested it out fully, but if this is true then mention should be made of it in the cheats section EunuchOmerta 01:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a joke video, ignore it. SchuBomb 02:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn. I'll leave this up for future referenceEunuchOmerta 17:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

the WRAPFIELD feature isn't a cheat... it's more like an expansion, or an easter egg. Cheating usually grants the player with an unfair advantage in the game. Clearly, WRAPFIELD makes the game harder. BushMyster 23:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

TESTED FAILED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.108.232 (talk) 01:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Image
I've got this 167 x 259 pixel image of minesweeper running in xp. needed ? 122.162.62.248 10:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Minesweeper on Windows Vista Business
I am disputing the statement that "The business version of Vista does not come with the game." I use Windows Vista Business 32-bit, and it comes with Minesweeper (as well as all the other Windows games). --131.215.166.206 22:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * So under Control Panel -> Programs and Features -> Windows features, there is a check box for "Games", which expands to check boxes for each of the games. I do not remember if it was enabled when I first installed Vista; but whether or not it was initially enabled, the games definitely come with Vista Business. --131.215.166.206 22:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm that, I just got a new vista business laptop and it has the games, they were not enabled when I first got it though. I will revise page --Benjamint444 11:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Repeated anonymous edits
Since 01 May 2007, an anonymous user with IP 87.65.xxx.xxx or 87.64.xxx.xxx has been making edits on this page that strongly resemble that ones made by the old user named Pixel. Among the evidences observed on these edits that point in the direction of Pixel are: 1) usage of poor English, as well as unencyclopedic language; 2) attempts to fill the article with images of a specific software, instead of generic images, as discussed on this page; 3) attempts to "devaluate" the original version, as well as Windows, changing expressions like "comes free with Windows" by "comes bundled with Windows", or "popular Windows version" by "widespread Windows version", etc; 4) lots of unnecessary insertions of links to external pages about this specific software; 5) Lack of explanations about his changes on this discussion page. I say "old user" because Pixel is currently banned from editing Wikipedia, for strongly violating its rules. But it seems he is the one making obsessive edits, using sockpuppets. I am currently just reverting his changes. RodrigoCamargo 22:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

That's called playing politics.--Pixel ;-( 11:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

 * So, all those anonymous edits were really made by you, Pixel. Here in the duscussion page, you need to explain and discuss the reasons for your changes in the article. And not only make changes anonymously, without explanation. Moreover, there are some things I'd like to comment about your recent edits: (1) you put images for the KDE and GNOME sections that are duplicates, since they already exist in the galleries down in the article. No need for duplicate images in the same article; (2) you put unnecessary information about releases of these softwares, and also a list of "features" of one of them. Specific features like these are not suitable in an article about Minesweeper. Maybe in articles about these softwares, specifically; (3) the two galleries in the article are not supposed to grow indefinitely. Once they can illustrate well the examples they're meant to illustrate, there is no need to include more images. Overall, the galleries are not collections of images. I reverted all three edits. Remember to discuss your next edits, here. RodrigoCamargo 12:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

 * You so rarely contribute,how do you know how is done?

 * 1) The gallery is for comparison,in the specific sections is for identification.You can add the windows image in the windows section if you want.
 * 2) In that case Windows version have to go too,in it's won article,i already proposed that,you turn it down.You want that only windows stays here and all the rest out.Either they all stay,either they all go out,pick one.
 * Yes,yes let's discuss indefenetly.You are just trying to sensor everything that is not windows.
 * 1) For the image thing, i'm proposing to leave a mixture of both in,as a compromise,for example like it is now.Don't try having your way at 100%.
 * --Pixel ;-( 11:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Pixel, we've already come to a consensus about most these things. The argument is over. Custom images are in (not wondows - custom). Everything else you try to do is just cluttering up the page.SchuBomb 14:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Pixel, placing the same image twice in the same article is not good, and this is valid for all images, including the Windows version's image. All necessary images are already in the galleries, so there is really no need to put them again in the sections. Check here, where you should read "Similar types of images within an article often look appealing if they appear at the same pixel size", and here, where you should read "Articles may get ugly and difficult to read if there are too many images crammed onto a page with relatively little text".
 * Also, there is no need to create separate articles. I just said the specific information you wrote are not suitable in an article about Minesweeper. Just to make it clear, when I say "specific information", I refer to "(latest release August 25, 2005 2.1.10)" and "1.Easy, normal, expert and custom levels. 2.Keyboard-only game possible. 3.Configurable colors, mouse buttons and tile size. (...)". This kind of information should not be in an encyclopedia.
 * I didn't say discuss indefinitely, I said grow indefinitely. I said the galleries should not grow indefinitely, because, as their names say, they are just examples of the classic game and examples of variants. Just examples. Not a full collection of screenshots of many versions. The current number of examples is prety fair. No need to add more. So, I removed the unnecessary images.
 * And about your proposal to leave a mixture of both in, you should notice you already proposed that in the past, and the discussion is summarized at the top of this discussion page. And this topic was settled in favor of the generic images.
 * Just a final comment: using new accounts to evade blocks or bans results in the block or ban being extended. Just check this in your old, blocked, user page. RodrigoCamargo 15:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You didn't do your homework.Wikilowering and politics.His was band so we don't talk to you.That's your only argument 19:31, 3 December 2006 Zscout370 (Talk contribs) blocked "Pixel ;-) (contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite (compromised account; password was pasted on userpage) I put my password on my talk page(warrant an automatic ban) in order to have my account blocked.If you believe you have a case to ban me ,go find an admin to block me.That's settled,basically you just want that all none windows stuff go away."This kind of information should not be in an encyclopedia.",what am i supposed to say to that?well it's sourced and relevant,if i begin saying that this and this "should not be in an encyclopedia",what are you going to say.For the images ,they are not the same pixel size ,and are put further a part from the gallery,their purpose is for the reader to make a quick comparison,theirs no ban on putting the same image like this in an article.For the "generic" that are not generic images,the issue is not closed and so i'm reverting to the version of January.--Pixel ;-( 16:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

 * You are editing unilaterally instead of discussing. I think you may be more interested in getting your way than actually having a discussion about it. Kmines is used by almost no-one, it does not deserve its own section at all, unless every other silly little version of minesweeper ever made gets its own section. It's ridiculous. The issue was closed ages ago. You are the only one making these changes, everyone else either isn't interested or disagrees with you. Reverted.SchuBomb 14:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * KDE/gnome are covering 99% of FLOSS Desktop programs(not only linux,and not only on top of free software) so they do need a section.The galleries are not very long,and the requirements for wen an image is used two times are met.The images are POV.--Pixel ;-( 10:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Pixel, Kmines and GNOME Mines are VERY unknown. For example, I have just searched Google images for the word "minesweeper" and not a single image of Kmines and GNOME Mines appeared in the first 10 pages of the results!!! Because of that, putting these images everywhere in the article is just ";;forcing" people to see images of an unkown version, which might be considered spam. Besides that, we have the generic equivalents, which do not represent ANY specific version. Ok, Kmines and GNOME mines deserve a section, and they are there, but please expand them writting something useful, instead of this: "(latest release August 25, 2005 2.1.10)" and "1.Easy, normal, expert and custom levels. 2.Keyboard-only game possible. 3.Configurable colors, mouse buttons and tile size. (...)". RodrigoCamargo 17:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * By saying that they are generic you keep being intellectually dishonest,you know very well why you add them in the first place.Further more we could say that they are really screenshots.It's just POV.The sections are supposed to talk about the programs,it's what they do.For Winemine,it's not childish, he really said that.Ther no rule that forbids content simply because it's considered childish.Actually spam is information,just unwanted,the added information is factually accurate and relevant.The images in the gallery and in ther respective sections are used with different pixelization,far from the gallery and to illustrate the programs in question,the galleries is more for comparison.--Pixel ;-( 06:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sound option
I added a sentence about the sound option in Windows Minesweeper - this definitely used to work in Win 3.11, but I'm unsure about newer variants. Quite why the option to have sound enabled was removed by default, I have no idea! Stonejag 18:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comments: Screenshot discussion
This is a dispute about what images should be used to illustrate the article, as can be seen in the sections Screenshot Discussion and Repeated Anonymous Edits above.

(This is a summary, do not comment here. Please do it below, on Comments)
 * Brief summary
 * Until approximately August 2006, screenshots of the Microsoft version were used. Then, the editor Pixel replaced the images by screenshots of a less-known KDE version, KMines. This started a discussion, because some editors said the Microsoft version is more promptly recognized for readers as an illustration of the game Minesweeper than the less-used KMines. On the other side, Pixel replied saying KMines' images were copyright-free, while Microsoft's images were copyrighted. In an attempt to solve this issue, the editor RodrigoCamargo created new generic images by hand, which don't match any other version, and released to the public domain, replacing the images in the article. However, Pixel replaced back KMines' images, and since then, has been monitoring the article, making sure KMines' images are used. According to him, the generic images should not be used because its colors are extremely similar to the Microsoft version's colors. Moreover, he says that RodrigoCamargo made the new images with the sole purpose of being as close as possible to the Microsoft version. RodrigoCamargo (and others) replied saying that those colors are used by the vast majority of the Minesweeper implementations around, so it is not a problem to use the same colors on generic images. As a reply to this, Pixel says that this issue was already closed, and cites the fair use policy of Wikipedia. Pixel also says that having only one set of images is POV, not spam.

 * In the meanwhile, Pixel was indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia, for violating its rules. Because of that, it is not even certain if his most recent edits were "legal", since all of them were made using sock puppets. On the other hand, Pixel states that he pasted his password on the talk page of his user page in order to get blocked, for reasons of his own.

 * Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
 * FunnyMan summarized some statements in the Screenshot Discussion section above.

 * Comments
 * I should comment on the fact that using screenshots of any specific software may, in some degree, be spam, made to promote that software, being it a free software or not. There are some evidences that Pixel is not simply trying to contribute to Wikipedia, but actually trying to promote KMines and KDE, by placing several images, links and references along the article. Examples include this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and many other edits from him. Besides that, the current Minesweeper article has FOUR full-windowed images of the software KMines, one in each of the sections Game description, Measuring board difficulty, KDE and Examples of the classic game. I think this is enough to be considered spam by the majority of the editors. The generic images should be used instead, and the numerous unnecessary links should be removed. RodrigoCamargo 17:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * COI - I can't see any reason to keep the KMines images. Promotion of those images by User:Pixel ;-) seems like a clear conflict of interest. Wikipedia's illustrations should do just that - illustrate the article - not advertise one particular editor's software. SheffieldSteel 17:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia should also be NPOV.Camargo wants that only his images remane at the exclusion of all else.If this is not POV, then what is it?Even he ,he don't really beleave that the images are neutral,he made them explicitly so that they look like the windows version,he was promoting the microsoft images (as an ip),but wen it become clear that a policy wouldn't permit that,he made the new images as a replacement.--Pixel ;-( 04:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not do the images specifically to look like the Windows version. I did the images to (1) put truly copyright-free images in the article (I released them to the public domain), and (2) resemble any version of minesweeper as much as possible. You say that the images I did are similar to the Windows version because of its colors. But the huge majority of the versions available for download use exactly this same set of colors (1=blue, 2=green, 3=red, etc). If I want to represent the huge majority of the versions in a single image, I should use the colors that the huge majority uses. This is also the reason why I made images without caption, smiley, timer, etc. These things make it very easy to identify the program being used. The minesweeper game is focused only in the board, so I made only the image of a board. RodrigoCamargo 13:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * (1)You realesed them in the PD because you erroneously thaut,that PD was superseding GFDL in the same way that GFDL supersede fair use in wikipedia.(2)POV "they don't look like windows version,they just look like the lookalike clones of windows version".--Pixel ;-( 03:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * (1) No, this is not true. I didn't think PD superseds GFDL. And I never thought that. I released that generic images to the PD because I'm not intereseted in keeping any copyright of them, and I want to allow anyone to use them for any purpose. Not because of the reason you said. Remember to assume good faith. (2) I can't understand what you meant to say, but I re-state: the second reason why I did the images is to resemble any version of minesweeper as much as possible.RodrigoCamargo 04:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

 * You didn't resolved anything,the issue was already closed,just see fair use policy of wikipedia ,you made the new images with the sole purpose of being as close as possible to the windows version,not neutrality,the article had alredy images,you made them to replace them.I didn't say that they should not be used.You said that Kmines shouldn't be used at all.Having only one set of images is POV, not spam.--Pixel ;-( 04:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Your so full of shit,this are screenshots of your program.If you realy created them by hand,then i'm Budha.You didn't resolved anything,the issue was already closed,just see fair use policy of wikipedia ,you made the new images with the sole purpose of being as close as possible to the windows version,not neutrality.You argument of neutrality is really dishonest.If with this you don't take us for idiots,then what is it?I didn't say that they should not be used.You said that Kmines shouldn't be used at all.Having only one set of images is POV, not spam.--Pixel ;-( 04:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, this is clearly a personal attack, so I am not replying it. RodrigoCamargo 13:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What ever.--Pixel ;-( 07:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

 * From my block log "with an expiry time of indefinite (compromised account; password was pasted on userpage)".I pasted my password on my talk page so that it gets blocked.I don't want to contribute to Wikipedia any more,but since you proved to be intellectually dishonest,i'm making a small exception.By keep returning to this technicality,you just show that you are not honest and just wikilowering.--Pixel ;-( 04:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Pasting you password is a strong violation of Wikipedia's rules. Strong enough to end in an indefinite ban. Explaining what you did to get blocked does not attenuate your violation. I am citing this fact because probably most of your recent edits (still in the screenshots discussion) can be considered "illegal", because most of them were made using sock puppets, and using new accounts to evade blocks or bans is not allowed. RodrigoCamargo 13:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what to reply to that.--Pixel ;-( 07:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

 * The images are actually screenshots.Very probably Camargos program ,it has two interesting features,"Has three built-in skins."since he is the programmer it's a pice of cake to put in any skin he want(i didn't try very hard to see were the filles were located).And "Ability to edit the postitions of the mines manually, on Cheat mode.".THIS is a conflict of interest.Then he just used paint for the 3BV.--Pixel ;-( 05:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the images are NOT screenshots, as you affirm. I did the generic images by hand, using the Paint program. Check the font used, it's just a slightly modified version of Fixedsys and MS Sans Serif. And the images are not screenshots of my program. Check here, here and here the only 3 skins available on it, and see that none of them match the one I did for the article. The information "Ability to edit..." is not written in the article. It's on my program's website. By the way, there is not a single screenshot or link of my program in the entire article about minesweeper. And this is how it should be. Wikipedia is not to promote software. RodrigoCamargo 13:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean that you have the source code of a mine sweeper game,that you wrote your self.And didn't past thrue your mind to just replace/edit the data filles,recompile,use the cheat mode and then have a screenshot?Ok explain how exactly you did them with paint?--Pixel ;-( 03:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have the source code of a minesweeper game that I wrote for myself. No, it didn't pass on my mind to replace data/recompile/use cheat mode/take a screenshot. Explaining how I did the screenshots on Paint: zoomed in on a blank image; did a grey 16x16 pixels square with black border; copy-pasted it several times; used the text tool to put colored numbers, letters and question marks on the squares; used the pencil tool to draw blocks, flags, and final edits; arraged several copies of the squares in grids, making the images of the boards; saved each image separately. RodrigoCamargo 04:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't find any easy way in arranging in a grid in paint.You position them by hand?--Pixel ;-( 07:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, by hand. I didn't say it was easy. So, (1) I hope you understood that your first affirmation, "The images are actually screenshots. Very probably Camargo's program", is a false affirmation. (2) I also hope you understood your second affirmation, "it has two interesting features, has 3 built-in skins (...) and ability to edit the positions of the mines manually. THIS is a conflict of interest" is also a false affirmation. RodrigoCamargo 11:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

 * In "History of 3BV".We can learn some things about my friend Camargo "In 2004, Rodrigo Silveira Camargo published "Minesweeper Clone" with many 3BV-related features.... ".Thats COI.--Pixel ;-( 05:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is true. And this is not a problem. And moreover, it was not me who wrote it in the article. It was someone else. I read the conflict of interest page and having your name cited in an article does not fit under COI. RodrigoCamargo 13:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think there were several other programs with 3BV-related features beforehand, that might be a problem.--User:Ieeedarn
 * Good source that,and edit the article.--Pixel ;-( 03:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course there were programs with 3BV features before. The article itself cites the program "Minesweeper Board Reader", as well as Sorin Manea's program. There is no problem with that. RodrigoCamargo 11:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Until someone agrees with Pixel, I'm going to automatically revert every custom image he tries to replace with a kmines image, no-one agrees with him and he's acting unilaterally. Hope no-one has a problem with that. I support RodrigoCamargo's position completely.SchuBomb 15:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a democracy.Also ,don't disrupt wikipedia to make a point.--Pixel ;-( 03:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * SchuBomb is not trying to start a votation. So, no need to emphasize the non-democratic nature of Wikipedia, which, instead, assumes that we should find a consensus, and not act unilaterally. RodrigoCamargo 04:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that we have a consensus, and one editor who apparently is not willing to abide by that consensus. Pixel, you have failed to  assume good faith and have made  personal attacks on this Talk page (e.g. "Your so full of shit" above). In addition, you have engaged in edit warring over screenshots of your own software when the  conflict of interest guidelines advise you to exercise extra caution and seek consensus before making changes. Please read the guidelines linked in this post - and try to follow them. This will help us all to work together to make this a better article. SheffieldSteel 17:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

 * In an ideal world, screenshots from many different versions would be ideal. But this is not an ideal world, and the Windows version is the default version for the vast majority of users. Anything else is a clone, and really not appropriate for a primary screen shot, only as an example of a different version. I support open source software, but I do not support Pixel's actions. Haikupoet 04:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Minesweeper (video game)/Archive 1