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Talk:Autonomous communities of Spain

Spanish v. English words
Why are they "provincias"? We're calling them "autonomous communities", not "comunidades autónomas" or "autonomías"... so what's wrong with "province"? - montrealés — Preceding undated comment added 23:47, 2 October 2002 (UTC)

 * Nothing wrong with province, but the use of Spanish v. English words does not seem to be consistent across Wikipedia. -- Miguel — Preceding undated comment added 00:13, 19 August 2003 (UTC)

Definition?
What are autonomous communities? an explaination would be great. This article could be a lot more than a list: an explaination of what an autonomous community is, what role it plays in the politics of Spain, the history of how they came about ("post-Franco"?) -- the EU might even be relevant (ie. what effect does the EU have on these autonomous communities?). -- Sam — Preceding undated comment added 19:56, 13 November 2002 (UTC)

Language in the constitution
I went and looked at the text of the constitution. If you can read Spanish, follow this link. I cannot find any justification for the following statement:

 * The Constitution distinguishes "historic" or "fast-track" communities (Basque Country, Catalonia, Galicia and Andalusia) and the "slow-track" rest. The historic ones initially received more functions.

The moral of the story is that myths get propagated and we forget to check the sources even if they're there. I think it is time to write Spanish Constitution of 1978. I know that the major contributors to this page are serious and fluent in Spanish, so we can make a good job of it. -- Miguel — Preceding undated comment added 00:31, 19 August 2003 (UTC)
 * Well, in pratice, the distinction is important: historic autonomies have, for instances, elections in different days from "normal" autonomies. Apart from that, see these articles of the Constitution:

DISPOSICIONES ADICIONALES.

'''Primera. La Constitución ampara y respeta los derechos históricos de los territorios forales.'''

La actualización general de dicho régimen foral se llevará a cabo, en su caso, en el marco de la Constitución y de los Estatutos de Autonomía.

 * and

DISPOSICIONES TRANSITORIAS.

'''Primera. En los territorios dotados de un régimen provisional de autonomía, sus órganos colegiados superiores, mediante acuerdo adoptado por la mayoría absoluta de sus miembros, podrán sustituir la iniciativa que el apartado 2 del artículo 143 atribuye a las Diputaciones Provinciales o a los órganos interinsulares correspondientes.'''

'''Segunda. Los territorios que en el pasado hubiesen plebiscitado afirmativamente proyectos de Estatuto de autonomía y cuenten, al tiempo de promulgarse esta Constitución, con regímenes provisionales de autonomía, podrán proceder inmediatamente en la forma que se prevé en el apartado 2 del artículo 148, cuando así lo acordaren, por mayoría absoluta, sus órganos preautonómicos colegiados superiores, comunicándolo al Gobierno. El proyecto de Estatuto será elaborado de acuerdo con lo establecido en el artículo 151, numero 2, a convocatoria del órgano colegiado preautonómico.'''

 * Despite not mentioning specific Autonomies in the text, these articles were clearly aimed at Catalonia, Galicia and Basque Country (with Navarre out of the Autonomic map, since it was made a Foral Community). These autonomies (and Andalucia) also formed autonomous communities in a slightly different fashion than other communities, assuming a large ammount of competences, which other autonomies only got many years later. This is not explicitly stated in the Constitution, but rather implied.

 * This article of the Spanish Constitution:

Artículo 145.

1. En ningún caso se admitirá la federación de Comunidades Autónomas.

'''2. Los Estatutos podrán prever los supuestos, requisitos y términos en que las Comunidades Autónomas podrán celebrar convenios entre sí para la gestión y prestación de servicios propios de las mismas, así como el carácter y efectos de la correspondiente comunicación a las Cortes Generales. En los demás supuestos, los acuerdos de cooperación entre las Comunidades Autónomas necesitarán la autorización de las Cortes Generales.'''

 * is not where the fact that Spain is not a federation is based. This article simple states that Autonomous Communities cannot unite to form another Autonomous Community. It is in the very first articles of the Constitution that the non-federative status of Spain is declared, when Spain is said to be a unitary state. However, Spain does function as a federation, in practice, with the these important exceptions: in certain cases, Central government can suspend autonomy and Spanish Law is to be considered in case of conflict with autononomic law (with the exception of those aspects where autonomies have exclusive right to legislate).
 * User:Marco Neves — Preceding undated comment added 01:31, 19 August 2003 (UTC)
 * Marco, why don't you add some content to Spanish Constitution of 1978? I'm just an amateur here :-) — Miguel — Preceding undated comment added 01:56, 19 August 2003 (UTC)
 * Hi! I'd love to, but right now it's 3:00am here where I am and so, I'll have to do it some other day...;) But we are all amateurs here, hope you (and all others) will also participate! Cheers!User:Marco Neves — Preceding undated comment added 02:08, 19 August 2003 (UTC)

I am Spanish. As far as I know, there is no legal document that states that there are "historical communities" and "normal communities". However, this word is generally used in Spanish political language, especially in press. In fact, the difference is mentioned on Geography textbooks. Greetings, 85.57.65.78 (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Image
I think this article would benefit from a cleaner image, perhaps more like the one on the Provinces of Spain page. - dcljr 00:32, 29 July 2004 (UTC)

HOW BOUT A MAP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.251.215 (talk) 05:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Names of provinces and capital cities
In Catalunya and Galicia, the provinces and capital cities are listed first in the regional language and then in Castillian (eg Lleida Sp. Lérida) whereas in Euskadi and Valencia they are listed first in Castillian and then in the regional language (eg Alicante Val. Alacant). Is there any particular reason for this, as I'm minded to move them all so they're in local language first then Castillian, but didn't want to just wade in in case there was a reason... edd 13:27, 23 August 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what the rule is for Wikipedia, but the tendency in Spain is (for instance, on road signs) now for all toponyms to be given in the regional language in larger type and Spanish in smaller type.

The problem is that the political divisions don't match the linguistic reality. For instance, in the Valencian Community, the north (Castelló (Es. Castellón)) is predominantly Valencian-speaking, and the south (Alicante (Va. Alacant)) is predominantly Spanish-speaking. In the Basque country, Gipuzkoa (Es: Guipúzcoa) is predominantly Basque-speaking whereas Álava (Eu: Araba) is predominantly Spanish-speaking.

Catalunya and Galiza experienced a strong renaissance of their local languages in the 19th century, which was less strong in the Basque Country and Valencia.

I would advocate the following:
 * if a traditional English name exists, use that.
 * otherwise, use the local language (which may be either Spanish or the regional language) and list the alternative in parenthesis.
 * Check the pages Spanish language, Catalan language, Galician language and Basque language for information about history and regional distribution. Complain in the talk pages if you are confused.

— Miguel 15:45, 24 August 2004 (UTC)

 * When writing this table, I used, first English names, second the names used by the Spanish statistical authority, whether Spanish or local. - Montréalais 16:41, 25 August 2004 (UTC)
 * In Galicia and Catalonia the provincies and cities have only a official name, it is in the local language (Galician and Catalan) the Spanish name is not official, in Valencia Community and Bascque country, provincies and cities have two official names, in Spanish and local language.Rocastelo 16:49, 20 March 2005 (UTC)

I have added a footnote indicating what languages are official. I also removed a small paragraph with unverified information (i.e. Eastern Andalusia secessionism).-- Asterion talk 20:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that in the list of cities and provinces the name that is listed first and, more importantly, that is used to link towards the specific page of the city or province is the spanish form. I think we should use either the english one (to be consistent with the language of the Wikipedia) or the *official* one, which is what is used in the name of the articles listed. It doesn't seem very coherent to link texts like "La Coruña" or "Gerona" to the articles of A Coruña and Girona. I'd like to know if anyone has any opposition to reversing this policy and linking the official names. --6470N3620 (talk) 09:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed tag
"Other communities have a more limited force or none at all (eg. Policía Autonómica Andaluza)."

The Policía Autonómica Andaluza don't exists, it's only an informal project but its creation it is not in the plans of the National or Autonomic government. The only police forces in Spain except Catalonia, the Basque Country and Navarre are the Cuerpo Nacional de Policía, Guardia Civil and Municipality forces.--Menah the Great 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 * It is not a fully devolved force, as it was clear from the previous text (it never said it was at the same level of responsibilities as its Basque and Catalan counterparts). Some responsibilities have been passed on but the Policia Autonoma is still an "Unidad Automoma" of the National Police Force. See this. Regards, 00:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

clear up
How would you guys include in the article the fact that, according to the Constitution, it could be either the present status of all the territory structured as ACs or it could also be that only the "nacionalidades históricas" were constituted as ACs if they had been the only ones which decided to do so?

Any ideas? Dúnadan, please?

I think this loose and highly interpretative scenario deliberately presented by the Constitution is worth it noting. It also gives some room for a comment on the Spanish Transition and its consensus often relying on conveniently vague enough concepts. Mountolive  all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 14:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't fully understand what you are trying to say. Regarding the first, I think the OECD paper states just that, that the constituent assembly expected only the historic nationalities to request self-government, but all did in the end. Is that what you mean? As for the loose interpretation, I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. -- the D únadan  23:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

 * That's exactly what I meant. I'd like you or anyone else to find a way to summarize it in one line or two. Sounds like it's worth it, doesn't it?
 * The vague or blurring dispositions of the Constitution in this regard are the ones allowing quite different interpretations of the territorial structure, either being fully constitutional. I think it is also worth noting this constitutional consensus reached by means of conveniently vague-enough articles. Mountolive   all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 00:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the article somewhat explains your first concern (that only "nationalities" were expected to be given autonomy, eventually all requested it and were given it). But we can reword that section, if necessary. As for the "constitutional consensus on convenient vague articles", I somewhat agree. Given that the political spectrum in Spain tends to be focused on the ends and not on the center, the constitutional congress resorted to neutral grounds and open articles that could appease or satisfy both. However, I wouldn't state either of our opinions in the article. Maybe if we can cite a political scientist or a social scientist describing the situation (and the OECD could be just one), would be better. -- the D únadan 04:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Opera Mini - Image 'broken'
I would just like to point out that the image under the "Political organization of the autonomous communities" section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autonomous_communities_of_Spain_no_names.svg) looks completely broken when viewing wikipedia with the Opera Mini browser (iPhone). The flags dont line up the way they should and cover some text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.90.55.182 (talk) 05:21, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Regions
I think "Community" translates better as "Region" in English, "Community" sounds to small and "Region" tends to be used as a whole.Jonnyboy5 (talk) 08:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "Comunidad autónoma" is the official name in Spain and the only precise name for this administrative unit. It was agreed on by politicians in the 1970s after long arguments about the issue. Notice that the word "región" is politically loaded in Spain, so including the English word region in the page would unleash an edit war almost for sure. Jotamar (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

 * "Community" has a COMPLETELY different meaning in American English - and probably in British English, too - as does the word "commune". I think that the English Language Wikipedia needs to utilize Real English, no matter what the Spanish. If "Community" is the translation from Spanish, it is a mistranslation. In English, an "autonomous community" is a place like Andorra, San Marino, Washington, D.C., Lichtenstein, Monaco, Vatican City, the Australian Capital Territory, the Federal District of Mexico, Hong Kong, the former Free City of Trieste. What they have in common is being small and politically unconnected in some ways.47.215.180.7 (talk) 02:13, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Washington, the Australian Capital Territory, and the Federal District of Mexico are autonomous in not being ruled by any of the "States", such as Maryland, Pennsylvania, New South Wales, Nuevo Leon, or the State of Mexico. Andorra is autonomous in that it is jointly ruled (on an equal basis) by organizations in France and Spain. The principle here is that "to have two masters is to have none", and hence Andorra has run its own affairs for centuries.47.215.180.7 (talk) 02:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Europeans who write in the English Language Wikipedia also need to understand that metropolitan, metropolitan area, and metropolis refer to BIG places like London ("Metropolitan London"), Los Angeles ("Metropolitan Los Angeles"), New York City ("Metropolitan New York"), Atlanta, Birmingham, Boston, Cape Town, Dublin, Dallas-Ft. Worth (the "Metroplex), Edinburgh, Glasgow, Houston, Johannesburg, Manchester, Melbourne, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Sydney, Tampa-St. Petersburg, and Washington, D.C. ("Metropolitan Washington", which also covers parts of Maryland and Virginia.) Also, "metropolitan community" is a contradiction in terms. "Metropolitan" does not refer to villages and towns in Switzerland, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, Spain, or the Kingdom of the Netherlands, with its outlying islands in the Caribbean Sea.47.215.180.7 (talk) 02:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Unjustified deletion of content
I kindly ask User:Jotamar not to delete properly referenced reliable sources. If you disagree with the statements made by reputable Academicians, please provide adequate sources, not original research based on quotes. Please do not engage in an absurd edit war. If you want to discuss, please do so, as I have been waiting in relevant talk pages for your reply. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   00:56, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

In case other users are interested in the discussion. The current communities of Cantabria and La Rioja were considered to be part of the region of Castile, namely Old Castile. (León was not, but was nonetheless denied autonomy, and incorporated into Castile and León). This, of course, does not deny the fact that regionalism did arise in the said communities, as a small cultural minority in the 19th century, but did not become more "generalized" until the 1970s. Madrid, on the other hand, was part of New Castile, but was constituted as a separate community as the "capital" of the country.

Sources to back up the statements:
 * Daniele Conversi, Doctor in Sociology from the London School of Economics, professor of the University of the Basque Country, whose area of expertise is ethnonationalism, and who has extensively studied the case of Spain, wrote: " [...] autonomy statutes were granted to Cantabria (province of Santander), an area whose ancient name was La Montaña, and La Rioja (province of Logroño), both regions culturally and historically part of Castile. Madrid has been detached from its historical hinterland, Castile, and established as a separate [autonomous community]"
 * Manuel Clavero Arévalo, professor of Law, former minister of Spain (adjunct minister for the "regions" in 1977, and minister of Culture from 1979-1980), wrote: "La Rioja [...] was severed from Castile-León [sic] to be constituted as [an] autonomous community; and Madrid from Castile-La Mancha''"
 * José Luis García Ruiz, professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Cadiz, wrote: "Cantabria (old province of Santander) integrated into the geographic region until then called Old Castile), La Rioja (old province of Logroño, also integrated into Old Castile) [...] Madrid (part of the old geographic region called New Castile, segregated by virtue of its status as capital) [...] The previous classification allows us to see [...] the important alteration of the map of the Spanish historical regions producing the disappearance of León and the appearance of new autonomous regions at the expense of the renown and secular [regions] of Old Castile and New Castile".

In a very informative work on the history of Cantabria, José Alfonso Moure Romanillo, professor of the University of Cantabria, Manuel Suárez Cortina, professor of Contemporary History at the University of Cantabria, and Antonio Bar Cendón, professor of Constitutional Law of the University of Valencia, write about the formation of the regional identity of Cantabria: "''For decades, al least until the [economic] crisis of the 70s, the political discourse established in the region was made in a Castilian tone. Economic emergence was due to Castile; it was with [Castile] that the project on the construction of Spain was realized, which started with the Reconquista, in which members of the Cantabrian nobility participated. La Montaña [alternate name for Cantabria] sacrificed to Castile its best resources. "Cantabria, origin of Castile" and "Cantabria, root of Spain" were, until almost our days, the most expressive manifestations of a regional identity clearly dislocated [sic] towards a Castilian projection. It has been, in consequence, from this Castilian periphery that the contemporary evolution of today's Cantabria was developed"''.

They continue: "It should be no surprise therefore than in 1972 Sánchez Albornoz would see the separation of Cantabria from its Castilian root as an aberration, and it is not surprising either that only by the end of the 70s a specifically regionalist movement emerged for the first time. Cantabria presents itself as a dual reality, with an autonomous present and future, and with a past and a tradition distinctly Castilian [...] With a Castilianized culture [...] the birth of regionalism wasn't easy [it was] a particular way of affirmation that, without a rupture without its secular tradition, recovered its specific way of being; an affirmation of Cantabridad [sic] which was coherent with the strength of the regional sentiment [...] in response to the abusive centralization of the State, and at the same time did not break with the tradition of Old Castile that impregnated the region's past".

If I am misreading these sources, or if additional sources need to be added to offer a balanced view, then by all means, let's discuss. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   01:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

 * user:Dúnadan is inserting in this page statements that have already been discussed and discarded in a different article (Nationalities and regions of Spain) after a lengthy discussion (see Talk:Nationalities and regions of Spain):

 * It is unacceptable to include this statement: Cantabria and La Rioja, .. historically and culturally part of Castile, and then support it with 3 sources, when only one of them (Daniele Conversi) does really make that statement, and in addition this source (or any other) fails to explain what is understood by Castilian culture. And then there is the question of the obvious irrelevance of being historically part of Castile, as 12 out of 17 communities in Spain can be defined that way.

 * It is really strange the insistence to use the emotionally-loaded term severed (Spanish: amputado) to describe some of the political decisions.

 * In addition, the very existence of the page Nationalities and regions of Spain makes it unnecessary to deal with historical or cultural aspects in this page. We could end up with 2 duplicate pages.

 * I expect user:Dúnadan to take note and change his/her own wording. Jotamar (talk) 16:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Jotamar, it doesn't work that way. The statements in Nationalities and regions of Spain were not discussed and discarded. I provided arguments and plenty of sources from reputable Academicians, (including researchers from the University of Cantabria, and who are Cantabrian themselves!) to back them up; you provided a quote from the 19th century and bordered on WP:OR to make a statement. Then you abandoned the discussion. Even in this discussion, you have failed to provide a single reference to back up your statements. I have quoted verbatim not one, but at least 5 Academicians and researchers, Spaniards and foreigners, specialized in Spain, to back up my arguments. And even if you were to provide referenced arguments, you could not possibly say that the discussion was settled: please read WP:CONSENSUS. And also, please read WP:VERIFIABILITY.

If your concern is the term severed, which by the way, has more acceptions than amputado then let's change it. If the problem is a particular word, then let's discuss it. I will propose a new term.

Finally, the existence of the page Nationalities and regions of Spain does not mean that the topic is irrelevant here for many reasons, of which I would only mention two: (1) In every article you need at least a small section on the historical or cultural background to understand the concept discussed and (2) the section you are concerned with speaks precisely of the creation of autonomous communities (i.e. the very topic of this article) and not of the "nationalities and regions" per se, and more specifically, the section describes the so-called "autonomic pacts" which happened to include a special provision for those two communities to be incorporated into Castile and León. (If anything, Nationalisms and regionalisms of Spain could be redundant with Nationalities and regions of Spain, but you thought otherwise, and you even argued for the inclusion of a link to the first article in the lead of the second, because "they referred to two different things", and I conceded).

Please, Jotamar, I ask you, again, let's discuss amicably without any negative undertones. But please note that in Wikipedia, there are certain rules, of which WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:OR are of special importance in our discussion. If you have reputable sources from Academicians or researchers, then we can create a balanced article. But, we cannot change the article just based on your opinion (or the opinion of any user). It just doesn't work that way. (Also, I'd be happy to recommend a list of books on the subject, many of which I read from cover to cover and which were used to revamp the two articles in question).

(Also, even though I hope it doesn't come to that, we can always resort to a Dispute Resolution).

Cheers,

-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   13:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

 * If that's all you have to say, we'll have to duplicate the wording in both pages, including the Menéndez y Pelayo quote. Jotamar (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Why have you ignored the many Academic research and studies that I have presented? What do you have to say about what Moure Ramanillo, Suárez Cortina and Bar Cendón said about Cantabria? Or what do you think about what the former minister of the Regions, Clavero Arévalo expounded? Is that all you have to say?

I think you might have misunderstood me. A balanced article is not written by adding quotes and them making conclusions that violate WP:OR and WP:UNDUE. (In that sense, no, I respectfully disagree. We do not need to duplicate a quote in Spanish; in fact, I have argued before that the quote is unnecessary and should be deleted from the other article). What I meant to say is that if you are willing to substantiate your opinion with Academic sources, such as the many that I have provided, then yes, we can write a balanced article.

I am sorry if I am repeating myself, but the point is this: I can write 10 quotes by the many different opinions that the population may have (nationalists, integrationists, regionalists, european-ists, anarchists, cantonalists etc). If I make my own conclusion out of quotes, I violate WP:OR. Per Wikipedia guidelines, we are supposed to use secondary sources, that is, Academicians and researchers that have analyzed the many positions and have made conclusions based on their expertise. Primary sources should be used at the minimum, if at all. If there are Academic works that contradict the many sources that I have provided, and if the opinion of such Academicians is well-respected and not on the fringe, then yes, we can and must write a balanced article, and I am willing and wanting to collaborate in that endeavor.

My offer stands, I am happy to recommend many books and papers for you to consider, and also, if need be, to present the discussion for dispute resolution. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   14:43, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

How about this as a solution for both articles:
 * replacing "historically and culturally part of Castile" with "traditionally considered part of the historical region of [New] Castile." ("traditionally" meaning customarily; we do not specify whether this "traditional consideration" was justified historically and culturally or not).
 * we finish the previous sentence with a statement such as "... notwithstanding the emergence of regionalist sentiments that led to their constitution as "autonomous communities" with regional identity" or something of that sort.
 * we remove the unnecessary quote in Spanish.

Both positions are presented in the above solution, without adding any details on the subtleties of Cantabrian identity. These would belong to the article of Cantabria.

Would that work as a compromise for you?

-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   15:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

 * The quote could be turned into a reference/footnote, but it should not be removed. Try your new wording, but I prefer not to ok it until I can read it in full. Jotamar (talk) 17:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

"The quote [...] should not be removed"? And what is the argument behind your declaration? I have plenty of arguments for its deletion:
 * Because it contradicts more than half a dozen secondary sources, fully verifiable, from reputable Spanish and non-Spanish researchers and Academicians.
 * Because its inclusion is taken out of context, giving a fringe position undue weight (in violation of Wikipedia policies)
 * Because the conclusion that is being made from the source also borders on violating the no original research policy. (Not that the author didn't say that; but you are advancing what appears to be a fringe position in contradiction with what the many Academicians cited above have said).

In reality, I have plenty of verifiable sources, that would stand up to scrutiny, to substantiate the claim that Cantabria and La Rioja (even though your main issue seems to be with Cantabria, but not La Rioja) are considered culturally and historically part of Castile. Yet in order to compromise, I am proposing of changing it to "traditionally" - which is watering down the position of all Academicians - and yet you still insist on advancing your position, but you have not provided a single Academic source to validate it.

I ask you again, what do you have to say about what Moure Ramanillo, Suárez Cortina and Bar Cendón said about Cantabria? Or what do you think about what the former minister of the Regions, Clavero Arévalo expounded? Besides qualifying the opinion of researcher Daniele Conversi as rife with "journalistic generalizations", "superficial knowledge of an outsider" or an "unsuspecting foreigner", do you have a substantiated argument to contradict all the Academic research presented? (Bear in mind, when you answer, that we are supposed to use secondary sources in Wikipedia).

-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   22:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Hi. I see that this was posted at WP:3O to get a third opinion.  I'll be happy to help out.  Are both parties still engaged here?  I know it's been about a week. --Noleander (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Cantabria and Rioja part of Castile
For the benefit of any reader interested in the edition conflict between user:Dúnadan and me, I'll try to make a simple exposition of what is being discussed.

The central point is this: Some guy called Daniele Conversi wrote in an article that:

"... autonomy statutes were granted to Cantabria ... and La Rioja ..., both regions culturally and historically part of Castile."

User:Dúnadan included verbatim that quote in the text of Nationalities and regions of Spain, and is doing now the same thing here. My point is very simple:

 * That Cantabria and Rioja are historically part of Castile is true, as it is true of 12 out of 17 autonomous communities of Spain, and also true of Mexico, Cuba, Peru, etc. It's an irrelevant statement.

 * That Cantabria and Rioja are culturally part of Castile is preposterous, as no-one has ever defined any Castilian culture or even any single Castilian cultural trait. Conversi is just proving to be clueless about this point, and the rest of sources proposed by User:Dúnadan do not mention anything about culture.

The text as it stood, including Conversi's quote, is partial for the pancastellanista ideology. Notice that this pancastellanista point of view is also favored by hard-core Spanish nationalists and, paradoxically, by Catalan and Basque nationalists. As User:Dúnadan is no longer willing to include his own consensus proposal, which I accepted, I think the best solution is to just remove the biased (and wrongly sourced) statement. Jotamar (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I can't but object to your comments above.
 * First, you fail to understand how Wikipedia works. You continue to delete content that is fully referenced and verifiable in compliance with Wikipedia policies. You claim now that it is wrongly sourced. Can you elaborate, please? (With sources, not with your own opinion about how nationalist the quote is). I ask you again, please read WP:VERIFY.
 * Second, you failed to provide a single source to back up your accusations against reputable Academicians including, but not limited to, Cantabrian researchers and professors from four different universities including the London School of Economics. Your point may be simple, but if it is not found in a verifiable source, it cannot be used in lieu of a secondary source.
 * Third, it is not Conversi, it is at least 5 other researchers, whose references were included. I ask you again, for the third time - third time's the charm maybe - what do you have to say about what Moure Ramanillo, Suárez Cortina and Bar Cendón said about Cantabria? Or what do you think about what the former minister of the Regions, Clavero Arévalo expounded? Besides qualifying the opinion of researcher Daniele Conversi as rife with "journalistic generalizations", "superficial knowledge of an outsider" or an "unsuspecting foreigner", do you have a substantiated argument to contradict all the Academic research presented?
 * Fourth, you did not accept my proposal; you said: "Try your new wording, but I prefer not to ok it until I can read it in full". In my language, that does not mean "I accept", but rather "maybe", and you conditioned your acceptance upon keeping a quote in Spanish and out of context, to which I objected, since, again, I repeat myself, it violates WP:UNDUE. To claim that you accepted the consensus is not only unfair but deceiving. If you really wanted to reach an amicable consensus, then why didn't you include it yourself? Why delete it all?
 * In light of the above, I cannot but revert your edit. I am more than willing to write the consensus, if you explicitly accept it (e.g. "Yes, I accept the consensus").
 * Please Jotamar, I ask you, in good faith, let's discuss. Please answer the questions. Let's find a solution amicably, substantiated with sources in full compliance with Wikipedia's policies. If you insist on reverting without providing sources, I will definitely call for a Dispute Resolution.
 * Cheers, -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   13:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

My remark about the Menéndez y Pelayo quote, which is not in this page, was a response to a comment by User:Dúnadan in this talk page but related to a different page, Nationalities and regions of Spain. For the rest, no new argument has popped up. User:Dúnadan keeps failing to explain what on earth means being culturally part of Castile, and why opinions should be given the value of facts in Wikipedia. Jotamar (talk) 14:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, we are continuing here. Ignore my post in the section above.  Let me read up on some of the sources, and I'll see if I can come up with my own recommendation. --Noleander (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Some initial observations:
 * It is okay if this article duplicates some info that is in other articles ... there is no WP rule against that; and it is often better for readers.
 * We ignore our own opinions & knowledge when writing articles: we rely exclusively on what the sources say.
 * If there is some controversy/emotion surrounding a topic: it is best to strive to be very neutral and objective.
 * If there there are some ambiguities or uncertainties involved, it may be best to identify those to the reader, rather than presenting as black-or-white
 * There appear to be strong sources stating that the two regions were "part of" Castille.
 * The term "Castile" has many interpretations, so it is probably best to specify which Castile (e.g. a particular era, or boundary) is being referred-to
 * The qualifiers "historically" and "culturally" don't seem to add a lot of value to "... part of Castile". "Culturally" especially can be a charged word, and needs exceptionally strong sources to justify it.  Omitting both words ("historically" and "culturally") doesn't seem to harm anything.
 * Based on the above, I would suggest changing
 * to something simpler like:
 * The "specifier here" should, ideally, identify a specific era that is appropriate: Crown of Castile or New Castile.
 * That is my initial impression. I'd be happy to continue to work with both you to see if we can come up with a resolution that is acceptable to everyone.  You may need to ping me on my talk page to get my attention.  What do you both think?  --Noleander (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The "specifier here" should, ideally, identify a specific era that is appropriate: Crown of Castile or New Castile.
 * That is my initial impression. I'd be happy to continue to work with both you to see if we can come up with a resolution that is acceptable to everyone.  You may need to ping me on my talk page to get my attention.  What do you both think?  --Noleander (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Noleander for your input. I don't object to your proposal; other than using the qualifier "traditionally", it is not that different from my consensual proposal. The "specifier" that makes sense is Old Castile, but the "Castile" that IMHO the sources refer to is simply Castile (i.e. New and Old Castile)-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   01:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. The terms "historically" and "traditionally" both seem a bit facile in this context:  lots of syllables, but not much meaning.   How about
 * By the way "... with historical identity" is an odd phrase. I assumed that was a legal term used within Spain to designate a certain kind of province ... is that correct?   If it is not a Spanish legal/governmental term, we should remove it or improve it.  --Noleander (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way "... with historical identity" is an odd phrase. I assumed that was a legal term used within Spain to designate a certain kind of province ... is that correct?   If it is not a Spanish legal/governmental term, we should remove it or improve it.  --Noleander (talk) 01:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

I actually prefer "traditional" to "originally". With regards to the term "historical identity", I agree its odd, and so is the original phrase in Spanish "con entidad regional histórica", whose literal translation is "with historical regional entity", but I have seen it translated also as "with historical regional status". (The latter is the translation used in the English version of the constitution in the Spanish Parliament's website). The phrase is part of the constitution, so in that sense it is a legal term, and it is important that we keep it.

Maybe an explanation of the term will help. The constitution of 1978 allowed the historical regions, or rather the "nationalities and regions" of Spain to become autonomous communities if they wished to do so. Since the process was voluntary in nature, the constitution set up several requirements. One of such requirements was that autonomous communities were to be formed by two ore more provinces (with similar economic, historical and cultural characteristics) unless a single province could claim "historical regional entity/identity/status". The way these historical regions would accede to autonomy was first by creating a provisional government (aka "pre-autonomic regime") sanctioned by the central government via a "decree law", and then satisfying the additional requirements set up in the constitution (e.g. approval of the citizens in a referendum, etc.)

For example, the government had sanctioned the creation of a provisional government for the province of Oviedo to become the autonomous community of Asturias, since the province claimed historical identity (it had been one of the "historical regions" of the 1833 territorial division). However, the provinces of Santander (Cantabria) and Logroño (La Rioja), being part of the historical region of Old Castile (from the same territorial division of 1833), were included in the decree law that sanctioned the creation of the provisional government of Castile and León (which was to group, evidently, the historical regions of Old Castile and León). It wasn't until after the "autonomic pacts" were signed in 1982 that they were granted autonomy in their own right, despite not having formed a provisional government or "pre-autonomic regime", which was a requirement. And this leads us to the contended sentence.

The sentence currently reads:

Regardless of the terms chosen, based on your input we could find a consensual version that would say:

What do you think?

-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   05:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I would like to repeat that my only worry is with the "historically and culturally part of ..." segment. I'm glad user Noleander has noticed how problematic the culturally word can be. As for which version of Castile to use, there are 2 alternatives: the old kingdom of Castile, but then it becomes irrelevant, because about 3/4 of modern Spain was part of the kingdom, or Old Castile, but then making it clear that this unit was mainly symbolic (with no administrative usage) and official only since 1833. An important point is that there has never been any territorial unit of Castile as the sum of Old Castile and New castile, that is, we cannot push here an imaginary region/country. Jotamar (talk) 12:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

 * On the other hand, I intend to add a short sentence in the paragraph, something as ... even so, the local population overwhelmingly supported the new entities (copied from Nationalities and regions of Spain). This is needed to avoid the general feeling in the text in the direction of the new communities were invented just to annoy the Basques and Catalans. Jotamar (talk) 12:57, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * @Jotamar: Okay, so it sounds like everyone agrees that "culturally" and "historically" should be removed. As for "... even so, the local population overwhelmingly supported the new entities", that could be okay, but a couple of thoughts:  (1) The "even so" is not needed ...it just introduced a sense of argumentation unnecessarily;  (2)  WP is not a valid source, so make sure you find external sources to support that new statement and add a footnote (see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT). --Noleander (talk) 14:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * @dúnadan: A couple of thoughts:  (a) it seems like adding the new text "and both originally included in the "pre-autonomic regime" of Castile and León" makes the sentence really long and hard to read.  How about:
 * I think we need to say that "historical identity" is a legal term of art, otherwise English readers will have no idea what it means. --Noleander (talk) 14:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we need to say that "historical identity" is a legal term of art, otherwise English readers will have no idea what it means. --Noleander (talk) 14:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

@ Noleander: It's just a technicality, but Cantabria and La Rioja were never part of the autonomous community of Castile and León, they were only part of the pre-autonomic regime of Castile and León. All three autonomous communities, Castile and León, Cantabria and La Rioja, acceded to autonomy roughly at the same time, around 1983. Also, the "new status", by which I assume you mean "autonomous community" did not carry a legal designation. The "historical identity" was a requirement in order to accede to autonomy, but it is not a "designation".

@ Jotamar: I agree with Noleander with regards to the "even so". But I would also add that the "overwhelmingly" is gratuitous. In reality, all "slow track" communities, in order to accede to autonomy, had to have the support of 2/3 of all municipalities - via the municipal councils, not directly the citizenry - whose population would sum up to at least 50% of the electoral census. In that sense, Cantabria and La Rioja were no different that any other "slow track" region. Without this ample majority no autonomous community could have been created in the first place. It remains to be seen, or researched, whether the autonomic pacts actually waived this requirement, so the process towards approval may not have been put into place. On the other hand, one could argue that the "fast track" communities did receive an "overwhelming" majority, in the sense that these communities were the exception and required the support of 3/4 of the municipalities and the absolute majority of the electoral census of each province and the Statute of Autonomy needed to be approved by referendum. This was not the case for Cantabria or La Rioja, which were "slow track" communities. I would therefore just say something like "acceding to autonomy separately was supported by the majority of the population". Without any subjective qualifier like "overwhelmingly", the phrase seems more neutral. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   05:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

 * The sentence in Nationalities and regions of Spain is supported by a reference (number 24 at the moment) which proves that the support was, at least for Rioja, much larger than the legally required majority. Jotamar (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How about:
 * --Noleander (talk) 20:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * --Noleander (talk) 20:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Noleander. I agree with the contents and essence of the proposal. (I believe the issue is for the most part resolved by eliminating the qualifier "culturally"). However, I am still struggling to find the right way to structure the sentence and how to fit in the context in which it is located. The section on the "creation of the autonomous communities" follows a historical progression:
 * historical background;
 * transition to democracy and the creation of the "pre-autonomic regimes" which are to be the precursors to the autonomous communities;
 * the constitution is written and establishes "routes" and "requirements" for the autonomous communities to be created;
 * several events lead to the "autonomic pacts" which finalize the process and allows for exceptions to the "routes" and "requirements" above.

Then comes the paragraph which describes these and other such exceptions and "special provisions": "Although [Valencia and the Canary Islands] took the "slow route", they were to assume the maximum level of competences". Then, comes the sentence in question: "Cantabria and La Rioja, although [...] part of Castile". Then there is a third exception for León which "although a historical region [... it was not] constituted as an autonomous community in its own right."

Because it is an exception, I find it weird just to a have a sentence that says "Cantabria and La Rioja were part of Old Castile, but both became autonomous [communities] in the 1980s"; it just seems out of place or rather "unconnected" if you will, with the rest of the paragraph. And since there is a historical progression, and we already mentioned the date in which the autonomic pacts were signed, specifying the "decade" in which they acceded to autonomy seems redundant.

Now, what are the "exceptions" or "special provisions" for Cantabria and La Rioja? (1) Being considered part of Old Castile their MPs joined the pre-autonomic regime of Castile and León; (2) in acceding to autonomy separately they are the only two autonomous communities that did not have a pre-autonomic regime and were part of another pre-autonomic regime (remember, pre-autonomic regimes were supposed to be the precursors to the communities and to coordinate the process); and (3) a unique provision is made so that they can be incorporated into Castile and León in the future if they so desire.

Therefore, I find it necessary to include the sentence about the "pre-autonomic regime". This term had already been defined in the previous section so the reader should understand and know what this sentence is making reference to. Also, - and these are just minor technicalities - but Cantabria and La Rioja did not become autonomous "provinces" but "communities" and this is not a "status".

So, I still prefer a version that is closer to what is currently written, with the contended qualifier removed, of course:

-- dúnadan  :  let's talk   16:15, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That is not too bad, but some of the words are loaded words:
 * "traditionally" - implies that there was no rational basis for the inclusion; implies that the inclusion was somewhat arbitrary or insensible
 * "although" - This suggests that the change to autonomous status was surprising or contrary to common sense
 * "allowed" - Lots of problems with this word.
 * "acceded to autonomy in recognition" - Who recognized? Spain as a whole? or the residents of C and LR?
 * How about:

 * --Noleander (talk) 19:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you are adding to much "load" to the words "traditionally" and "although". "Traditionally" simply means "customary" and not somewhat "arbitrary" or "insensible" (Would "historically" make more sense then?) "Although" does not mean "contrary to common sense" but simply "in spite of". And the inclusion of "although" is purposeful, because we are talking about exceptions to the rule, and the implication in the sentence is historical and supported by the sources. They were considered to be part of Old Castile, they were part of the pre-autonomic regime of Castile and León, and in spite of that - the common path to autonomy for all autonomous communities - they were constituted as autonomous communities in their own right. They became the exception, being the only two communities that did not have their own pre-autonomic regime. There are 3 "althoughs" in the paragraph, why is this particular "although" problematic?

The word "although" should be used with caution, so as not to violate WP:OR by making an implication not supported by the sources, but that does not mean we cannot use the word when the implication is supported by the sources and where it makes editorial sense, since the paragraph talks about exceptions to the rule.

With regards to the word "recognition", I can see why it may be a bad choice. The point is that there are three ways to accede to autonomy; they took the third one as "single provinces with historical regional identity". -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   00:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm going to bow out now: I think I've made all the comments I can. There is obviously some political background here, that I'm not familiar with, that is coloring the wording and intonation.  I hope my suggestions provide some ideas on how to get a neutral, encyclopedic wording. --Noleander (talk) 04:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help and suggestions. I think we have, for the most part, agreed on a "better" version. I've slightly edited the sentence to reflect that; hopefully Jotamar will agree to the new version. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   13:38, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have nothing new to add, the discussion has been long enough. The new wording is unbiased enough for me. Thanks to editor Noleander for all the involvement and patience. Jotamar (talk) 17:22, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Segovia
as far as I know, Segovia legally applied to be a single-province Autonomous Community, but (similar to the Almeria case) this request was overridden on "common good" legal grounds. To be elaborated by someone who is interested (if anybody). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.204.242.206 (talk) 15:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Clavero Arévalo, Manuel (2006)
Does anyone have access to Clavero Arévalo, Manuel (2006) (ref 23) as the isbn has a digit missing, and I cannot track it down using any of my normal routes, and the way the digits have been grouped does not give any extra clues? Bob1960evens (talk) 09:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently, in the web site where the full article was accessible, now there is only a summary. I suppose it's not available on line any more. Jotamar (talk) 15:09, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The isbn is 84-95531-35-6. It was missing the 8. -- dúnadan  :  let's talk   01:24, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Anyone care to provide a better link for the David Brighty article?
The link for David Brighty's "State and region: the Spanish experience" is broken; clicking on it leades to 404 error, and accessing it via the Internet Archive is also fruitless since it shows up the same 404 error from Chatham House. As such, could anyone provide a better link to the article, PDF or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.116.62 (talk) 03:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Lede
The lede doesn't do a great job of explaining what exactly the autonomy is... It'd would be worth expanding on that czar  ♔  02:06, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you give an example of what kind of wording are you thinking of? Thank you. --Jotamar (talk) 16:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Capital of the Canary Islands
How come the Canary Islands has two capital cities, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria and Santa Cruz de Tenerife, while all other 16 autonomous communities of Spain each have only one capital city? 120.16.170.133 (talk) 05:04, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

First-level divisions
Another editor (user:Danielsltt) is changing all the mentions to First-level divisions to Second-level divisions in this page and others. That makes no sense to me, there is no division level above autonomous communities in Spain, other than the whole State. My best guess is that this comes from the existence of NUTS statistical regions of Spain, which in the first level encompass several Spanish autonomous communities. However, the NUTS regions are clearly NOT administrative or political divisions of Spain, they're just statistical areas of the EU. This is also what I understand from the page Administrative division. Since this change involves editing several other pages, I'll wait a couple of days before reverting, and then I'll recover the original First-level text. Jotamar (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Hi Jotamar, sorry didn't see this earlier. I attempted to explain the situation in Political divisions of Spain, especially the last section. What do you think? Peter Brew (talk) 23:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * that page contains information not particularly familiar for me, so I guess it's all right. I opened this discussion because I saw what looked like an obvious mistake, and AFAIK it was solved long ago. Best regards, --Jotamar (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Autonomous communities of Spain


text:
Lyfing

Lyfing (from leof, meaning "darling") is an Anglo-Saxon given name. Notable people bearing this name include:

 * Lyfing, Archbishop of Canterbury (died 1020), advisor to King Ethelred the Unready
 * Lyfing of Winchester (died 1047), advisor to King Canute the Dane

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Lyfing


text:
Exeter Cathedral

Exeter Cathedral, properly known as the Cathedral Church of Saint Peter in Exeter, is an Anglican cathedral, and the seat of the Bishop of Exeter, in the city of Exeter, Devon, in South West England. The present building was complete by about 1400 and has several notable features, including an early set of misericords, an astronomical clock and the longest uninterrupted medieval stone vaulted ceiling in the world.

History

The site where Exeter Cathedral was constructed was home to Roman buildings. A legionary fortress was constructed between 50–75 AD. A Roman bathhouse was discovered in 1971.

The founding of the cathedral at Exeter, dedicated to Saint Peter, dates from 1050, when the seat of the bishop of Devon and Cornwall was transferred from Crediton because of a fear of sea-raids. A Saxon minster already existing within the town (and dedicated to Saint Mary and Saint Peter) was used by Leofric as his seat, but services were often held out of doors, close to the site of the present cathedral building.

In 1107 William Warelwast was appointed to the see, and this was the catalyst for the building of a new cathedral in the Norman style. Its official foundation was in 1133, during Warelwast's time, but it took many more years to complete. Following the appointment of Walter Bronescombe as bishop in 1258, the building was already recognised as outmoded, and it was rebuilt in the Decorated Gothic style, following the example of Salisbury. However, much of the Norman building was kept, including the two massive square towers and part of the walls. It was constructed entirely of local stone, including Purbeck Marble. The new cathedral was complete by about 1400, apart from the addition of the chapter house and chantry chapels.

Like most English cathedrals, Exeter suffered during the Dissolution of the Monasteries, but not as much as it would have done had it been a monastic foundation. Further damage was done during the Civil War, when the cloisters were destroyed. Following the restoration of Charles II, a new pipe organ was built in the cathedral by John Loosemore. Charles II's sister Henrietta Anne of England was baptised here in 1644. In 1650 an independent church was meeting in the cathedral and this small church caused upset when the minister "excommunicated" Susanna Parr.

During the Victorian era, some refurbishment was carried out by George Gilbert Scott. As a boy, the composer Matthew Locke was trained in the choir of Exeter Cathedral, under Edward Gibbons, the brother of Orlando Gibbons. His name can be found scribed into the stone organ screen.

During the Second World War, Exeter was one of the targets of a German air offensive against British cities of cultural and historical importance, which became known as the "Baedeker Blitz". On 4 May 1942 an early-morning air raid took place over Exeter. The cathedral sustained a direct hit by a large high-explosive bomb on the chapel of St James, completely demolishing it. The muniment room above, three bays of the aisle and two flying buttresses were also destroyed in the blast. The medieval wooden screen opposite the chapel was smashed into many pieces by the blast, but it has been reconstructed and restored. Many of the cathedral's most important artefacts, such as the ancient glass (including the great east window), the misericords, the bishop's throne, the Exeter Book, the ancient charters (of King Athelstan and Edward the Confessor) and other precious documents from the library had been removed in anticipation of such an attack. The precious effigy of Walter Branscombe had been protected by sand bags.

In July 2023, The Methodist Recorder reported that the cathedral chapter signed a sharing agreement between it and Mint Methodist Exeter for shared use of the Lady Chapel.

Architecture

The Norman cathedral construction began in 1112, presumably at the east end and was consecrated in 1133, by which date the choir, transept and first two bays of the nave were probably complete. As detailed above, remains of the Norman building can be seen in the massive transept towers. By 1160 the nave and west front were complete, and a cloister and chapter house were added between 1180 and 1244.

During the 1270s, a new project began to replace the entire east end, starting with the east end chapels. This work is documented by a very extensive series of fabric rolls. Work advanced slowly, with the retrochoir, presbytery and choir being built in the 1290s. The original choir elevation had two storeys, but was later modified to three, presumably after the arrival of Master Roger in 1297. Master Thomas of Witney was engaged in 1316 to design the choir furnishings, then became master mason and stayed at Exeter until 1342.

By 1328 the church was complete to the first two bays of the nave, where a design change in the vaults is visible. During Master Thomas of Witney's time the east cloister walk was begun (1318–25) and the nave, west front and north cloister walk were probably completed (c.1328-42). That the present west front is on the same site as the Norman predecessor is indicated by the narrowing of the nave bays towards the west, squeezed to meet an existing feature.

The image screen across the west facade and the chantry chapel of Bishop Grandisson located within the west front were probably designed by William Joy, who succeeded Witney as master mason in 1342 but seems to have died in 1347, possibly from the Black Death. From 1377 to 1414 the east, south and west cloister walks were finished by Master Robert Lesyngham, who probably also designed the great East Window (1390–92).

The architecture of Exeter Cathedral at first appears remarkably harmonious with the continuous run of tierceron vaults extending from west to east. Although the bays are irregular in size, the plan is throughout based on a division into ninths. There is also a wonderful array of tracery designs in the clerestorey windows. More detailed analysis nevertheless reveals a number of changes, including the decision to adopt a three-storey facade with a triforium more typical of cathedrals than the previous two-storey design. 3-D scanning of the vaults has also revealed numerous changes to the curvatures of the ribs.

Notable features
Notable features of the interior include the misericords, the minstrels' gallery, the astronomical clock and the organ. Notable architectural features of the interior include the multiribbed ceiling and the compound piers in the nave arcade.

The 18 m bishop's throne in the choir was made from Devon oak between 1312 and 1316; the nearby choir stalls were made by George Gilbert Scott in the 1870s. The Great East Window contains much 14th-century glass, and there are over 400 ceiling bosses, one of which depicts the murder of Thomas Becket. The bosses can be seen at the peak of the vaulted ceiling, joining the ribs together. Because there is no centre tower, Exeter Cathedral has the longest uninterrupted medieval vaulted ceiling in the world, at about 96 m.

Misericords
The fifty misericords are the earliest complete set in the United Kingdom. They date from two periods: 1220–1230 and 1250–1260. Amongst other things, they depict the earliest known wooden representation of an elephant in the UK. They have supporters.

Minstrels' gallery
The minstrels' gallery in the nave dates to around 1360 and is unique in English cathedrals. Its front is decorated with 12 carved and painted angels playing medieval musical instruments, including the cittern, bagpipe, hautboy, crwth, harp, trumpet, organ, guitar, tambourine and cymbals, with two others which are uncertain. Since the above list was compiled in 1921, research among musicologists has revised how some of the instruments are called in modern times. Using revised names, the list should now read from left to right gittern, bagpipe, shawm, vielle, harp, jew's harp, trumpet, organ, citole, recorder, tambourine, cymbals.

Astronomical clock
The Exeter Cathedral Astronomical Clock is one of the group of famous 14th- to 16th-century astronomical clocks to be found in the west of England. Others are at Wells, Ottery St Mary, and Wimborne Minster.

The main, lower, dial is the oldest part of the clock, dating from 1484. The fleur-de-lys-tipped hand indicates the hour (and the position of the sun in the sky) on a 24-hour analogue dial. The numbering consists of two sets of Roman numerals I to XII. The silver ball and inner dial shows both the age of the moon and its phase (using a rotating black shield to indicate the moon's phase). The upper dial, added in 1760, shows the minutes.

The Latin phrase Pereunt et imputantur, a favourite motto for clocks and sundials, was written by the Latin poet Martial. It is usually translated as "they perish and are reckoned to our account", referring to the hours that we spend, wisely or not. The original clockwork mechanism, much modified, repaired, and neglected until it was replaced in the early 20th century, can be seen on the floor below. The door below the clock has a round hole near its base. This was cut in the early 17th century to allow entry for the bishop's cat to deter vermin that were attracted to the animal fat used to lubricate the clock mechanism.

Library

The library began during the episcopate of Leofric (1050–1072) who presented the cathedral with 66 books, only one of which remains in the library: this is the Exeter Book (Exeter Cathedral Library MS 3501) of Anglo-Saxon poetry. 16 others have survived and are in the British Library, the Bodleian Library or Cambridge University Library. A 10th-century manuscript of Hrabanus Maurus's De Computo and Isidore of Seville's De Natura Rerum may have belonged to Leofric also but the earliest record of it is in an inventory of 1327. The inventory was compiled by the Sub-Dean, William de Braileghe, and 230 titles were listed. Service books were not included and a note at the end mentions many other books in French, English and Latin which were then considered worthless.

In 1412–13 a new lectrinum was fitted out for the books by two carpenters working for 40 weeks. Those books in need of repair were repaired and some were fitted with chains. A catalogue of the cathedral's books made in 1506 shows that the library furnished some 90 years earlier had 11 desks for books and records over 530 titles, of which more than a third are service books.

In 1566 the Dean and Chapter presented to Matthew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury, a manuscript of the Anglo-Saxon Gospels which had been given by Leofric; in 1602, 81 manuscripts from the library were presented to Sir Thomas Bodley for the Bodleian Library at Oxford. In 1657 under the Commonwealth the cathedral was deprived of several of its ancillary buildings, including the reading room of 1412–13. Some books were lost but a large part of them were saved due to the efforts of Dr Robert Vilvaine, who had them transferred to St John's Hospital. At a later date he provided funds to convert the Lady chapel into a library, and the books were brought back.

By 1752 it is thought the collection had grown considerably to some 5,000 volumes, to a large extent by benefactions. In 1761 Charles Lyttelton, Dean of Exeter, describes it as having over 6,000 books and some good manuscripts. He describes the work which has been done to repair and list the contents of the manuscripts. At the same time the muniments and records had been cleaned and moved to a suitable muniment room.

In 1820 the library was moved from the Lady Chapel to the chapter house. In the later 19th century two large collections were received by the cathedral, and it was necessary to construct a new building to accommodate the whole library. The collections of Edward Charles Harington and Frederic Charles Cook were together more than twice the size of the existing library, and John Loughborough Pearson was the architect of the new building on the site of the old cloister. During the 20th century the greater part of the library was transferred to rooms in the Bishop's Palace, while the remainder was kept in Pearson's cloister library.

Today, there is a good collection of early medical books, part of which came in 1948 from the Exeter Medical Library (founded 1814), and part on permanent loan from the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital (1,300 volumes, 1965). The most decorated manuscript in the library is a psalter (MS 3508) probably written for the Church of St Helen at Worcester in the early 13th century. The earliest printed book now in the library is represented by only a single leaf: this is Cicero's De officiis (Mainz: Fust and Schoeffer, 1465–66).

Bells
Both of the cathedral's towers contain bells. The North Tower contains an 80 -Lcwt bourdon bell, called Peter. Peter used to swing but it is now only chimed.

The South Tower contains the second heaviest peal of 12 bells hung for change ringing in the world, with a tenor weighing. They are second only to Liverpool Cathedral in weight. There are also two semitone bells in addition to the peal of 12.

Dean and Chapter
As of 5 December 2020:
 * Dean of Exeter — Jonathan Greener (since 26 November 2017 installation)
 * Canon Precentor — James Mustard (since 25 March 2018 installation)
 * Canon Chancellor — Chris Palmer (since 5 August 2018 installation)
 * Canon Steward — Cate Edmonds (SSM; (residentiary canon) since 22 October 2019 installation)

 * Non-Canons
 * Priest Vicar — Ian Morter (Canon Treasurer & Pastor 2010–2017; Priest Vicar since June 2018)
 * Priest Vicar — Julian Ould

Burials
A full listing of monuments and transcription of inscriptions in the cathedral is contained in: Hewett, John William, Remarks on the Monumental Brasses and Certain Decorative Remains in the Cathedral Church of St Peter, Exeter, to which is Appended a Complete Monumentarium, published in Transactions of the Exeter Diocesan Architectural Society, Volume 3, Exeter, 1846–1849, pp. 90–138 Persons buried within the cathedral include the following:
 * Leofric (bishop), first Bishop of Exeter (1050–1072)
 * Robert Warelwast, Bishop of Exeter (1138–1155)
 * Bartholomew Iscanus, Bishop of Exeter (1161–1184)
 * John the Chanter, Bishop of Exeter (1186–1191)
 * Henry Marshal, Bishop of Exeter (1194–1206)
 * Simon of Apulia, Bishop of Exeter (1214–1223)
 * Walter Bronescombe, Bishop of Exeter (1258–1280)
 * Peter Quinel, Bishop of Exeter (1280–1291)
 * Henry de Bracton (c. 1210 – c. 1268), English ecclesiastic and jurist
 * Sir Henry de Raleigh (died 1301), knight
 * Walter de Stapledon, Bishop of Exeter (1308–1326)
 * Sir Richard de Stapledon (died 1326), knight, elder brother of Bishop Stapledon
 * James Berkeley (died 1327), Bishop of Exeter
 * John Grandisson, Bishop of Exeter (1327–1369)
 * Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon (1303–1377) and his wife Margaret de Bohun (died 1391)
 * Thomas de Brantingham, English lord treasurer and Bishop of Exeter (1370–1394)
 * Sir Peter Courtenay (died 1405), fifth son of Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon
 * William Wilford (died 1413), Steward, Exeter Mich. 1396–7; receiver 1397–8; Member of the council of 12 1398–9, 1401–2, 1403–4, 1405–6, 1407–8, 1409–10, 1411–12; Mayor of Exeter 1400–1, 1402–3, 1404–5, 1406–7, 1408–9, 1410–11, 1412–13.
 * Edmund Stafford, Lord Privy Seal, Lord Chancellor, Baron Stafford and Bishop of Exeter (1395–1419)
 * Edmund Lacey, Bishop of Exeter (1420–1455), whose tomb had been a shrine, but which was walled over during the Reformation, fragments were uncovered during the Baedeker Blitz
 * John Speke (1442–1518) of Whitelackington, Somerset and of Heywood in the parish of Wembworthy and of Bramford Speke, Devon (buried in the Speke Chantry)
 * Hugh Oldham, Bishop of Exeter (1504–1519; buried in the Oldham Chantry)
 * William Alley, Bishop of Exeter (1560–1571)
 * William Bradbridge, Bishop of Exeter (1571–1578)
 * John Woolton, Bishop of Exeter (1579–1594)
 * Dr. William Cotton, Bishop of Exeter (1598–1621) buried in Exeter Cathedral. His monument with recumbent effigy survives.
 * Ofspring Blackall (1655–1716), Bishop of Exeter (1708–1716) buried on the southern side of the choir in an unmarked grave
 * John Ross (1719–1792), Bishop of Exeter (1778–1792) buried in the south aisle of the choir, the place being marked by a flat tombstone and the inscription 'J. R., D.D., 1792.'
 * Bryan Blundell (1757–1799), Major General in the Army and Lieutenant Colonel of the 45th Regiment of Foot
 * Sir Gawen Carew
 * Peter (Pierre) of Courtenay (1126–1183), youngest son of Louis VI of France and his second Queen consort Adélaide de Maurienne.
 * Sir Peter Carew (c. 1514 – 1575) is not buried in the cathedral, but is commemorated by a mural monument.
 * George Knight-Bruce, Bishop of Bloemfontein (1886- 1891) and first Bishop of Mashonaland (now Harare)(1891–1895) is commemorated by a memorial tablet.

Legends
One 19th-century author claimed that an 11th-century missal asserted that King Æthelstan, the previous century, had brought together a great collection of holy relics at Exeter Cathedral; sending out emissaries at great expense to the continent to acquire them. Amongst these items were said to be a little of "the bush in which the Lord spoke to Moses", and a "bit of the candle which the angel of the Lord lit in Christ's tomb".

According to the semi-legendary tale, the Protestant martyr Agnes Prest, during her brief time of liberty in Exeter before her execution in 1557, met a stonemason repairing the statues at the cathedral. She stated that there was no use repairing their noses, since "within a few days shall all lose their heads". There is a memorial to her and another Protestant martyr, Thomas Benet, in the Livery Dole area of Exeter. The memorial was designed by Harry Hems and raised by public subscription in 1909.

Wildlife
The tube web spider Segestria florentina, notable for its iridescent shiny green fangs, can be found within the outer walls. The walls are made of calcareous stone, which decays from acidic pollution, to form cracks and crevices which the spider and other invertebrates inhabit.

Choir

Exeter Cathedral Choir is composed of 38 Choristers (boys and girls) along with Choral Scholars and Lay Vicars. There is also a voluntary choir, the St Peter's singers, dating back to 1881.

Organists
Recorded names of organists at Exeter go back to Matthew Godwin, 1586. Notable organists at Exeter Cathedral include Victorian composer Samuel Sebastian Wesley, grandson of Methodist founder and hymn-writer Charles Wesley, educator Ernest Bullock, and conductor Thomas Armstrong. The current Director of Music, Timothy Noon, was appointed in 2016.

Organ
The Cathedral organ stands on the ornate medieval screen, preserving the old classical distinction between quire and nave. The first organ was built by John Loosemore in 1665. There was a radical rebuild by Henry Willis in 1891, and again by Harrison & Harrison in 1931. The largest pipes, the lower octave of the 32′ Contra Violone, stand just inside the south transept. The organ has one of only three trompette militaire stops in the country (the others are in Liverpool Cathedral and London's St Paul's Cathedral), housed in the minstrels' gallery, along with a chorus of diapason pipes.

In January 2013 an extensive refurbishment began on the organ, undertaken by Harrison & Harrison. The work consisted of an overhaul and a re-design of the internal layout of the soundboards and ranks of the organ pipes. In October 2014 the work was completed and the organ was reassembled, save for the final voicing and tuning of the new instrument.

title: Exeter Cathedral


text:
Robert Gair

Robert Gair was a Scottish printer and paper bag maker who invented the folding carton in 1879.

Born in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1839, he emigrated to the United States at age 14. Gair invented the paperboard folding carton by accident when a metal ruler used to crease bags shifted position and cut the bag. Gair found that by cutting and creasing paperboard in one operation, he could make prefabricated cartons. He ultimately entered the corrugated fiberboard shipping container business in the 1900s. His idea was developed and utilized by E. S. & A. Robinson with whom he had long-term business dealings.

Gair founded a paper empire and occupied several buildings in the area of Brooklyn now known as DUMBO, many of which still bear his name.

title: Robert Gair


text:
Talk:Pornographic film actor

Globalize
I put the Globalize template on this article. It's written as if all pornographic film actors were American. There's a pretty big porn industry in Japan, with stars, but Japan is never mentioned in the article. Where would Bodil Joensen fit in? See Category:Pornographic film actors by nationality. In fact, I'll make a see also out of that. deisenbe (talk) 08:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

 * Agreed. There's also a sizeable porn industry in Russia and India, probably larger than that of America.Azuresky Voight (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * More non-American content would be fitting. -- Mvqr (talk) 11:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Difference between a porn actor and Porn Star
The difference between a porn actor and a Porn Star is the Star is pictured on front cover of the movie with a reference of "starring" before the Star's screen name. Used to be you had to have a minimum of 100 covers before you were considered a Star. Nowadays everything is digital. Just being in the movie credits you with Porn Star status today. 2600:1700:EFED:10:F9DC:A75C:CE9B:1481 (talk) 10:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pornographic film actor


text:
Talk:Cow tipping

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2023
Change from: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"

To: "Cow tipping is the purported activity of sneaking up on any unsuspecting or sleeping upright cow and pushing it over for entertainment. Cow tipping refers to pushing over cows only and does not include pulling methods such as grabbing cows by the neck or legs as is done in steer wrestling, or methods which use ropes to push over cows such as cow casting. The practice of cow tipping is generally considered an urban legend,[1] and stories of such feats viewed as tall tales.[2]"

Jax0987 (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 Jax0987 (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * . The purpose of the lead section is to summarize the body text. Steer wrestling isn't mentioned in the body text, and casting is already covered in the next paragraph of the lead. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2023
Change from: "These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32]"

To:"These claims, to date, cannot be reliably verified,[5] with Jake Swearingen of Modern Farmer noting in 2013 that YouTube, a popular source of videos of challenges and stunts, "fails to deliver one single actual cow-tipping video".[32] While several YouTube videos show examples of people taking down cattle, these involve pulling on the neck or legs of the animals, like steer wrestling, and not pushing the cattle over."

Jax0987 (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)Jax0987 Jax0987 (talk) 13:09, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅, but using different words. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * But why? Steer wrestling really has nothing to do with cow tipping. -- Zim Zala Bim talk 02:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Because these are examples of getting a cow to fall to the ground from a standing position. I agreed with the proposal that it's a worthwhile and encyclopedic distinction to make. The article already includes a lengthy description of "casting" as a means to topple a cow, so why not a brief mention steer wrestling? It's just one additional sentence. I don't have a strong view on this, so in the spirit of WP:BRD I'll leave it up to to make a case for restoring the sentence removed by . ~Anachronist (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

No Youtube cow tipping evidence
If anyone was cow tipping it would be on youtube. It's not. With all those cameras out there, and people putting everything under the sun, and moon on youtube, there's no cow tipping. Best statistical proof in the world. 2600:8807:5400:28F0:4B1:D602:D837:1F70 (talk) 09:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Citation Needed request
First paragraph; fourth sentence

"The concept of cow tipping apparently developed in the 1970s, though tales of animals that cannot rise if they fall has historical antecedents dating to the Roman Empire." 2601:543:4200:DE0:4C94:9E86:A6D8:2E9D (talk) 22:50, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Difficulty
The article makes the case that a single person tipping a cow is impossible. However, in pop culture it is often depicted as difficult. The most famous depiction of cow tipping is in Tommy Boy, where the title character fails to tip a cow. I can’t remember if he said that he was never successful, or had just succeeded once. Perhaps this is part of the myth. In fact, it sounds a lot like a prank in a similar vein to snipe hunting. Should this angle be added to the article? Tinynanorobots (talk) 13:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cow tipping


text:
Alfie (1966 film)

Alfie is a 1966 British comedy-drama film directed by Lewis Gilbert and starring Michael Caine. The Paramount Pictures release was adapted from the 1963 play of the same name by Bill Naughton. Following its premiere at the Plaza Theatre in the West End of London on 24 March 1966, the film became a box office success, enjoying critical acclaim, and influencing British cinema.

The narrative follows a young, womanising man leading a self-centred life, focused on his own enjoyment until events force him to question his uncaring behaviour, his loneliness, and his priorities. Alfie cheats on numerous women, treating them with disrespect, using them for sex and domestic affairs. He frequently breaks the fourth wall, speaking directly to the camera, narrating and justifying his actions, despite broad contradictions.

Plot
Alfie Elkins, a handsome, self-centered, narcissistic Cockney chauffeur in London, enjoys the sexual favours of married and single women while avoiding commitment. He is ending an affair with Siddie, a married woman, just as he gets his submissive girlfriend, Gilda, pregnant. Alfie thinks nothing of pilfering fuel and money from his employer and tells Gilda to do the same. Although he refuses to marry her, and despite his constant cheating, Gilda decides to have the child, Malcolm Alfred, and keep him rather than give him up.

Over time, Alfie becomes quite attached to his son, but his unwillingness to marry Gilda causes her to break up with him and marry Humphrey, a kindly bus conductor and neighbour who loves her and is willing to accept Malcolm Alfred as his own. Gilda bars Alfie from any further contact with Malcolm, forcing him to watch from a distance as Humphrey steps into his fatherly role. When a health check reveals Alfie has tubercular shadows on his lungs, the diagnosis and his fear of death, combined with his separation from his son, lead him to have a brief mental breakdown.

Alfie spends time recuperating in a pastoral sanatorium, where he befriends Harry, a fellow patient, a family man devoted to his frumpy wife, Lily. Alfie makes out with one of the nurses, disgusting Harry. When Alfie flippantly suggests that Lily might be cheating on him, Harry angrily confronts Alfie about his attitudes and behaviour.

Released from the convalescent home, Alfie briefly stops working as a chauffeur to take holiday photos of tourists near the Tower of London. He meets Ruby, an older, voluptuous, affluent and promiscuous American who, although accompanied by an older gentleman, gives him her address and telephone number.

Alfie returns to chauffeuring and drives a Rolls-Royce to the sanatorium to visit Harry. He finds Lily finishing a visit with her husband, who asks him to give his wife a ride back to London to save her an exhausting train ride. Neither initially wants to spend time together, but they agree in order to please Harry. Along the way, they stop for tea and then a canoe ride where Alfie seduces Lily.

Later, chauffeuring again, Alfie sees a young red-headed hitchhiker, Annie, who wants a fresh start in London. A lorry driver picks her up just before Alfie gets to her. He follows them to a cafe and steals her away to London. She moves into his bedsit where she proves preoccupied with a love left behind, scrubbing Alfie's floor, doing his laundry and preparing his meals to compensate. The lorry driver finds Alfie in a pub and punches him in the face, causing a bar brawl.

Coming home with a black eye, Alfie grows resentful of Annie and drives her out with an angry outburst, immediately regretting it. Around the same time, Lily informs him that she is pregnant from their one encounter, and they plan for her to have an abortion. Lily comes to his flat to meet the abortionist. During the procedure, Alfie leaves Lily and walks around. He catches sight of his son Malcolm outside a church and witnesses the baptism of Gilda and Humphrey's new daughter. The abortion traumatizes both Lily and Alfie; he breaks down in tears when seeing the aborted fetus, the first time he confronts the consequences of his actions.

Stressed by the situations with Annie and Lily, Alfie decides to change his non-committal ways and settle down with Ruby. However, visiting her, he finds a younger man in her bed. He comes across Siddie, but she has lost interest in him and returned to her husband. Alfie is left lonely, wondering about his life choices and the meaning of existence. A stray dog approaches him, and he takes it in his care as he walks off into the night.

Development
Director Lewis Gilbert bought the film rights with Leslie Grade. Grade sold his share to James Woolf who wanted Laurence Harvey to play the role. Gilbert did not think Harvey would be right but agreed only if Harvey played in the play on Broadway first. Harvey refused, electing to appear in Camelot instead.

Gilbert was going to make No Bail for the Judge with George Peppard for Paramount but the film fell over. Since Paramount still paid Gilbert his fee, Gilbert offered to make Alfie for them instead at half his usual fee. Terence Stamp read the script and wanted to do it for a reduced fee, which made Paramount happy as Stamp was doing The Collector for William Wyler. Gilbert insisted Stamp do the play on Broadway and Stamp agreed; the play flopped. "He really was bad," said Gilbert of Stamp, "he didn't have the experience." Stamp decided not to do the film. Gilbert says his son suggested Michael Caine who was a friend. Gilbert admired Caine's work in The Ipcress File and managed to get him approved by Paramount.

Filming
Viven Merchant was a last minute replacement for Rachel Roberts who had to drop out because her father was ill.

It was shot at Twickenham Studios with scenes shot at several locations in London; including Waterloo Bridge which is seen at the beginning and end of the film where the title character walks into the distance accompanied by a stray dog and Tower Bridge which is the backdrop for the photography scene with Shelley Winters.

The film is unusual in that it has no opening credits and the end credits feature photos of the principal actors, as well as of the main technical crew, including director Gilbert and cameraman Otto Heller.

Music
The original film soundtrack featured jazz saxophonist Sonny Rollins with London musicians including Stan Tracey on piano, who improvised "Little Malcolm Loves His Dad" (although never credited), Rick Laird on bass, Phil Seamen on drums, Ronnie Scott on tenor sax.

The Sonny Rollins album Alfie, orchestrated and conducted by Oliver Nelson, was recorded in the United States in January 1966. It features Rollins with J.J. Johnson – trombone (tracks 1 & 2), Jimmy Cleveland – trombone (tracks 3–6), Phil Woods – alto saxophone, Bob Ashton – tenor saxophone, Danny Bank – baritone saxophone, Roger Kellaway – piano, Kenny Burrell – guitar, Walter Booker – bass and Frankie Dunlop – drums

The title song, "Alfie", written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David, was sung by Cher over the film's closing credits in the US release reaching #32 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart. It became a hit for British singer Cilla Black (Millicent Martin sang Alfie on its British release) and for Madeline Eastman and Dionne Warwick.

Reception
On Rotten Tomatoes the film has an approval rating of 97%, based on reviews from 29 critics, with an average rating of 8/10. The site's consensus states: "Anchored by Michael Caine's charmingly droll performance, Alfie is an equally raucous and heart-rending portrait of romance in the Swinging '60s."

Bosley Crowther, film reviewer for The New York Times, singled out Vivien Merchant's acting for particular praise: "There must be an abortion—a miserable and tragic thing, which Lewis Gilbert, who produced and directed, makes us sense in all its shabbiness and shame. But it is the performance of Miss Merchant as the woman brought to this shame, stunned and saddened by the necessity, deadened by her grief, that shocks us into feeling contempt for Alfie—and all the free-wheeling Alfies in this world."

The film was a huge box office hit. Lewis Gilbert says the film's success prompted Charles Bluhdorn (who bought Paramount Pictures in 1966) to make "around twenty pictures" without stars around $500,000 "and they all died".

Legacy
The 1966 film was followed by Alfie Darling (1975), with Alan Price replacing Caine. An updated 2004 remake starred Jude Law in the title role.

References in popular culture

 * Much of the film's dialogue was sampled by the band Carter USM for their 1991 album 30 Something.
 * The LP, Nino Tempo's Rock 'N Roll Beach Party (1956 Liberty Records ... LRP3023) can be seen hanging in Alfie's apartment in several key scenes.
 * New York post-hardcore band Polar Bear Club references "Alfie Elkins '66" in their song "Drifting Thing" off their 2009 release Chasing Hamburg.
 * The soundtrack to Austin Powers in Goldmember (in which Caine co-stars) contains a song entitled "Alfie (What's It All About Austin)" performed by Susanna Hoffs. This song is a cover of the original film's title song, with all occurrences of "Alfie" replaced with "Austin". A deleted scene has the cast performing the song.
 * The film inspired The Divine Comedy's Becoming More Like Alfie, which samples its opening dialogue in its introduction.
 * Guitarist Jeff Beck quoted the title song's melody in his instrumental showpiece "Jeff's Boogie", released a few months after the film's premiere.
 * Singer/songwriter Tori Amos performed the theme as part of her repertoire as a teen, and references it in the song "Gold Dust" from her 2002 album Scarlet's Walk.
 * British Pop Art artist Pauline Boty makes a brief appearance as the manageress of a Dry-Cleaner's whom Alfie visits for sex. Boty died just over three months after the film's UK premiere.
 * In the second episode of the third season of Emily in Paris, Lily Collins sings the song Alfie.

title: Alfie (1966 film)