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King's Lynn

King's Lynn, known until 1537 as Bishop's Lynn and colloquially as Lynn, is a port and market town in the borough of King's Lynn and West Norfolk in the county of Norfolk, England. It is 36 mi north-east of Peterborough, 44 mi north-north-east of Cambridge and 44 mi west of Norwich.

Toponymy
The etymology of King's Lynn is uncertain. The name Lynn may signify a body of water near the town – the Welsh word llyn means a lake; but the name is plausibly of Anglo-Saxon origin, from lean meaning a tenure in fee or farm. As the 1086 Domesday Book mentions saltings at Lena (Lynn), an area of partitioned pools may have existed there at the time. Other places with Lynn in the name include Dublin, Ireland, with An Dubh Linn meaning “the Black Pool.” The presence of salt, which was relatively rare and expensive in the early medieval period, may have added to the interest of Herbert de Losinga and other prominent Normans in the modest parish.

The town was named Len Episcopi (Bishop's Lynn) while under the temporal and spiritual jurisdiction of the Bishop of Norwich, but in the reign of Henry VIII it was surrendered to the crown and took the name Lenne Regis or King's Lynn. The Domesday Book records it as Lun and Lenn, and ascribes it to the Bishop of Elmham and the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The town is generally known locally as Lynn.

The city of Lynn, Massachusetts, north of Boston, was named in 1637 in honour of its first official minister of religion, Reverend Samuel Whiting Sr, who arrived there from Lynn, Norfolk.

Middle Ages
Lynn originated on a constricted site south of where the River Great Ouse now discharges into the Wash. Development began in the early 10th century, but the place was not recorded until the early 11th century. Until the early 13th century, the Great Ouse emptied via the Wellstream at Wisbech. After its redirection, Lynn and its port gained significance and prosperity.

In 1101, Bishop Herbert de Losinga of Thetford began to build the first medieval town between the rivers Purfleet to the north and Mill Fleet to the south. He commissioned St Margaret's Church and authorised a market to be held on Saturday. Trade built up along the waterways that stretched inland; the town expanded between the two rivers.

Lynn's 12th-century Jewish community was exterminated in the widespread massacres of 1189.

During the 14th century, Lynn ranked as England's most important port. It was seen to be as vital to England in the Middle Ages as Liverpool was during the Industrial Revolution. Sea trade with Europe was dominated by the Hanseatic League of ports; the transatlantic trade and the rise of England's western ports began only in the 17th century. The Trinity Guildhall was rebuilt in 1421 after a fire. Walls entered by the South Gate and East Gate were erected to protect the town. It retains two former Hanseatic League warehouses: Hanse House of 1475 and Marriott's Warehouse, in use between the 15th and 17th centuries. These are the only remaining buildings of the Hanseatic League in England. The town was designated a Royal Port by King John.

Modern

In the first decade of the 16th century, Thoresby College was built in Lynn by Thomas Thoresby to house priests of the Guild of The Holy Trinity. It had been incorporated in 1453 under a petition of its alderman, chaplain, four brethren and four sisters, who were licensed to found a chantry of chaplains for the altar of Holy Trinity in Wisbech. Lands were granted in mortmain. Lynn acquired a mayor and corporation in 1524. In 1537 the king took over the town from the bishop. In the same century the town's two annual fairs were reduced to one. In 1534 a grammar school was founded; four years later Henry VIII closed the Benedictine priory and the three friaries.

A piped water supply was created in the 16th century, although many could not afford to connect to the elm pipes carrying water under the streets. Lynn suffered from outbreaks of plague, notably in 1516, 1587, 1597, 1636 and finally in 1665. Fire was another hazard – in 1572 thatched roofs were banned to reduce the risk. In the English Civil War, King's Lynn supported Parliament, but in August 1643 it was in Royalist hands. It changed sides again after Parliament sent an army and the town was besieged for three weeks. Valentine Walton brother-in-law of Oliver Cromwell was appointed governor.

A heart carved on the wall of the Tuesday Market Place supposedly marks the burning of an alleged witch, Margaret Read, in 1590. It is said that as she was burning her heart burst from her body and struck the wall. Other sources put forward Mary Smith, hanged in 1616, as the witch.

In 1683, the architect Henry Bell, once the town's mayor, designed the Custom House. He also designed the Duke's Head Inn, North Runcton Church and Stanhoe Hall, having gained ideas while on travel in Europe as a young man.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, the town's main export was grain. Lynn was no longer a major international port, but iron and timber were imported. King's Lynn suffered from the discovery of the Americas, which benefited ports on the west coast of England. It was also affected by the growth of London.

In the late 17th century, imports of wine from Spain, Portugal and France boomed, and there was still much coastal trade. It was cheaper to transport goods by water than by road at the time. Large amounts of coal arrived from the north-east of England.

The Fens began to be drained in the mid–17th century and the land turned to farming, allowing vast amounts of produce to be sent to London's growing market. Meanwhile, King's Lynn was still a major fishing port. Greenland Fishery House in Bridge Street was built in 1605. By the late 17th century shipbuilding and glass-making had also developed.

In the early 18th century, Daniel Defoe called the town "beautiful, well built and well situated". Shipbuilding thrived, as did associated trades such as sail-making and rope-making. Glass-making prospered; brewing was another important industry. The Norwich company of comedians had been visiting since the 1750s, in 1766 a permanent theatre was created. A new playhouse was built in 1805. The first bank in King's Lynn opened in 1784.

A fearsome example of penal brutality occurred on 28 September 1708, when a seven-year-old boy, Michael Hammond, and his 11-year-old sister Ann were convicted of stealing a loaf of bread and sentenced to hanging. Their public executions took place near the South Gates. The Member of Parliament at the time was Sir Robert Walpole, generally regarded as the first Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

The town's decline from the late 17th century was reversed by the arrival of the railways in 1847, mainly by the Great Eastern Railway, later the London and North Eastern Railway, running to Hunstanton, Dereham and Cambridge. The town was also served by the Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway (M&GN), with offices at Austin Street and a station at South Lynn (now dismantled), which was also its operational control centre. It relocated to Melton Constable. The M&GN lines across Norfolk closed to passengers in February 1959.

The town's amenities continued to improve in the 20th century. A museum opened in 1904 and a public library in 1905. The first cinema, the Majestic, officially opened on 23 May 1928. (The year is marked in a stained-glass window on the front of the building.) The town council began a programme of regeneration in the 1930s.

During the First World War, King's Lynn was one of the UK's first towns to suffer aerial bombing, on the night of 19 January 1915 by a naval Zeppelin, L4 (LZ 27), commanded by Captain Lieutenant Magnus von Platen-Hallermund. Eleven bombs were dropped, both incendiary and high explosive, doing much damage, killing two people in Bentinck Street and injuring several more. When the Second World War began in 1939, it was assumed that King's Lynn would be safe from bombing and many evacuees were sent from London, but the town suffered several raids.

The local breweries had closed by the 1950s, but new industries included food canning in the 1930s and soup-making in the 1950s. In the 1960s, the council sought to encourage development by adding an industrial estate at Hardwick.

In 1962, King's Lynn was classed as an overflow town for London. The population grew and estates were built at Woottons and Gaywood. The town centre was redeveloped in the 1960s and many earlier buildings knocked down. Lynnsport, a sports centre, opened in 1982. The Corn Exchange in Tuesday Market Place became a theatre in 1996.

Recent changes
Since 2004, work has been under way to regenerate the town under a multi-million-pound scheme. The 1960s Vancouver Shopping Centre (now the Vancouver Quarter) was refurbished in 2005 under the scheme, but was expected to last only 25 years, according to the construction firm, even with a planned extension. An award-winning £6 million multi-storey car park was built.

To the south of the town, residential housing appeared on a large area of brownfield land. Plans for another housing estate alongside the River Nar were opposed locally and halted by the economic situation. There is also a business park, parkland, a school, shops and a new relief road in a £300 million-plus scheme.

In 2006, King's Lynn became the United Kingdom's first member of The Hanse (Die Hanse), a network of towns across Europe that belonged historically to the Hanseatic League. The league was an influential medieval trading association of merchant towns around the Baltic Sea and the North Sea, which contributed to Lynn's development.

The Borough Council commissioned and accepted a 2008 report by DTZ that dubbed King's Lynn's workforce as "low-value" with a "low skills base" and the town as having a "poor lifestyle offer". The quality of services and amenities was "unattractive to higher-value inward investors and professional employees with higher disposable incomes". Average earnings were well below regional and national levels, and many jobs in tourism, leisure and hotels were subject to seasonal fluctuations and likewise poorly paid. Education and workforce skills were described as below the national average. The borough ranked 150th out of 354 for social deprivation.

In 2009, a proposal was made for the Campbell's Meadow factory site to be redeveloped as a 5 ha employment and business park. In June 2011 Tesco gained a permit for a superstore. On 8 June 2010, it unveiled regeneration plans that would cost £32 million and were billed to bring 900 new jobs. Tesco pledged £4 million of improvements in other areas of the town. While it planned to spend £1.6 million widening Hardwick Road, the Sainsbury's bid was preferred by the Council as offering the town more benefits.

Sainsbury's £40 million plans for a superstore opposite Tesco on the Pinguin Foods site yielded an estimated 300 jobs. This was the key to securing the future of Pinguin Foods in King's Lynn. Pinguin Foods released 12 acre of its 44 acre site to accommodate the proposed store. Mortson Assets' and Sainsbury's plan included a link road between Scania Way and Queen Elizabeth Way to improve access and allow the industrial estate to attract new employers, while Sainsbury's maintains its store in the town centre. It has pledged £1.75 million for highways improvements and a further £7 million to invest in the Pinguin Foods factory.

At 8 am on 15 January 2012, the landmark Campbell's Tower was demolished – competition winner Sarah Griffiths pulled the switch. Her father, Mick Locke, had died in 1995 aged 52 after being scalded by steam at the factory. It was Campbell's first UK factory when it opened in the 1950s. At its peak in the early 1990s it employed over 700.

A fire station was opened by Queen Elizabeth II in February 2015.

Governance
King's Lynn became a municipal borough in 1883. The present Borough of King's Lynn and West Norfolk was an amalgamation of the Borough of King's Lynn, the urban districts of Downham Market and Hunstanton, and the rural districts of Docking, Downham, Freebridge Lynn, and Marshland.

Heraldry
The shield in the coat of arms of King's Lynn and West Norfolk is that of the ancient Borough of Lynn, recorded at the College of Arms in 1563. It shows the legend of Margaret of Antioch, who has appeared on Lynn shields since the 13th century, and to whom the parish church is dedicated.

The per chevron division and addition of a bordure serve to distinguish the shield from its predecessor, while retaining its medieval simplicity. The bordure also suggests the wider bounds of the new authority, with the seven parts symbolising the seven amalgamated authorities. The gull on the crest is a maritime reference. It has appeared as a supporter in some representations, but officially stands on a bollard to make it distinctive. It supports a crown or coronet like a King's Lynn supporter and a lion from the crest of Downham Market. The coronet refers to the Borough's royal connections. The cross held by the gull is an extension of the two in the shield, and the cross in the coat of arms of Freebridge Lynn Rural District.

The supporters are based on the crest of the Hunstanton Urban District Council. The lion is a variation of the lions, or leopards, in the Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom and its fish tail suggests the borough's links with the sea. The fish–lion is also the central feature in the borough's badge, but here it is surrounded by a garland of oak leaves as a reference to the rural nature of much of the district. Oak leaves also appear in the coronet in the crest of the former Downham Market Urban District Council.

Twinning
King's Lynn is twinned with:
 * 🇩🇪 Emmerich am Rhein, Germany
 * 🇦🇺 Sandringham, Victoria, Australia
 * Jičín, Hradec Králové, Czechia
 * Mladá Boleslav, Central Bohemian Region, Czechia

Topography
King's Lynn is the northernmost settlement on the River Great Ouse, lying 97 mi north of London and 44 mi west of Norwich. The town lies about 5 mi south of the Wash, a fourfold estuary subject to dangerous tides and shifting sandbanks, on the north-west margin of East Anglia. King's Lynn has an area of 11 sqmi.

The Great Ouse at Lynn is about 200 m wide and the outfall for much of the Fens' drainage system. The much smaller Gaywood River also flows through the town, joining the Great Ouse at the southern end of South Quay, close to the town centre. A small section known as West Lynn lies on the west bank, linked to the town centre by one of the oldest ferries in the country. Other districts of King's Lynn include the town centre, North Lynn, South Lynn, and Gaywood.

Climate
King's Lynn has a temperate oceanic climate (Köppen: Cfb). The annual mean daytime temperature is around 14 °C. January is the coldest month with mean minimum temperatures between 0 to 1 °C. July and August are the warmest, with mean daily maximum temperatures of some 21 °C.

There are two Met Office weather stations close to King's Lynn: Terrington St Clement, about 4 mi to the west and RAF Marham, about 10 mi to the south-east.

The absolute maximum temperature at Terrington stands at 35.1 °C recorded in August 2003, though in a more average year the warmest day will only reach 29.4 °C, with 13.8 days in total attaining a temperature of 25.1 °C or more. Typically all these figures are marginally lower than those for the southern half of the Fens due to the presence of onshore sea breezes, and occasional haar (cold sea fog), especially in early summer and late spring. However, with a strong enough offshore breeze, the area can be notably warm. Terrington (along with Cambridge Botanical Gardens) achieved the national highest temperature of 2007, 30.1 °C

The absolute minimum at Terrington is −15.4 °C, set in January 1979. A total of 41.6 nights will report an air frost at Terrington and 51.9 nights at Marham.

Annual rainfall totals 621 mm at Marham, and 599 mm at Terrington, with 1 mm or more falling on 115 and 113 days, respectively. All averages refer to the 30-year observation period 1971–2000.

Parks
The largest of the town's several public parks are the Walks, a historic 17-hectare urban park in the centre of King's Lynn. They are the only town walk in Norfolk to survive from the 18th century. The Heritage Lottery Fund donated £4.3 million towards restoring them and adding modern amenities. They also include the Red Mount, a Grade II-listed 15th-century chapel. In 1998, the Walks were designated by English Heritage as a Grade II national historic park.

The Walks as a whole had a different, earlier origin, conceived of not as a municipal park, as one understands the term today, but as a promenade for citizens, away from the smell, grime and bustle of the town centre. Harding's Pits form another public park, to the south of the town. This informal area of open space with large public sculptures was laid out to reflect the town's history. Harding's Pits are managed by local volunteers under a management firm, which successfully fought off a Borough Council attempts to turn them into an attenuation drain.

Demography
In 2007, King's Lynn had a population of 42,800. At Norfolk's 2007 census, King's Lynn, together with West Norfolk, had a population of 143,500, with an average population density of 1.0 persons per hectare. For figures after 2011 see King's Lynn and West Norfolk.

Economy
King's Lynn has always been a centre for fishing and seafood (especially inshore prawns, shrimps and cockles). There have also been glass-making and small-scale engineering works – many fairground and steam engines were built here. It still contains much farm-related industry, including food processing. There are several chemical factories and the town retains a role as an import centre. In general, it is a regional centre for a still sparsely populated part of England.

King's Lynn was the fastest growing port in Great Britain in 2008. Department for Transport figures show that through-put increased by 33 per cent.

In 2008, the German Palm Group began to erect one of the world's largest paper machines, constructed by Voith Paper. With a web speed of up to 2000 metres a minute and a web width of 10.63 metres, it can produce 400,000 tons a year of newsprint paper, based on 100-per-cent recycled paper. The start-up was on 21 August 2009.

The Port of King's Lynn has facilities for dry bulk cargo such as cereals and liquid bulk products such as petroleum products for Pace Petroleum. It also handles timber imported from Scandinavia and the Baltics and has handling sheds for steel imports.

King's Lynn is the prime retail centre in West Norfolk. The town centre is dominated by budget shops, reflecting the spending power of much of the population. The town centre fulfils a leisure role with entertainment centres, bars and restaurants, and has a range of service functions. It provides about 5,300 retailing jobs.

The town centre has 73,000 sq. m. of retail floor space in 347 shops, which exceeds the comparable centres of Bury St Edmunds and Boston. However, whilst the percentage of floor space in comparison shopping and that occupied by multiple retailers is above the national average, King's Lynn offers a more limited range of choice.

Tourism in King's Lynn is a minor industry, but it attracts visitors to its historic centre, and as a base for visiting Sandringham House and other country houses in the area. Within the town and across the nearby Fenland are some of the finest historic churches in Britain, built in a period when King's Lynn and its hinterland were wealthy from trade and wool.

Roads
King's Lynn is linked to the cities of Norwich and Peterborough by the A47, to Cambridge by the A10, and to Spalding and the North via the A17. Parts of north and east Norfolk are reached by the A148 and the A149. There is currently a campaign led by Norfolk County Council to dual the A47, due to the area's poor road networks and lack of motorways compared to other areas of the country.

Railway

King's Lynn railway station, terminus of the Fen Line, is the sole railway facility in King's Lynn. It provides regular services to Cambridge and London King's Cross. South Lynn railway station closed to passengers in 1959, as did Hunstanton in 1969.

West Norfolk Council is still considering ostensibly reopening a railway between King's Lynn and Hunstanton. The possibility was proposed at a meeting of the council's Regeneration and Environment Panel on 29 October 2008, having last been discussed in the 1990s. An environmental case was made for reviving the line to relieve road congestion.

Buses
Nearly all Stagecoach services in the area have been withdrawn, leaving most services in King's Lynn operated by Lynx or Go To Town (West Norfolk Community Transport Project).

King's Lynn is served by the excel bus route between Peterborough and Norwich operated by First Eastern Counties. The Coasthopper route from King's Lynn runs round the Norfolk Coast to Cromer but, since Stagecoach withdrew from Norfolk, the western section has been run by Lynx as Coastliner 36 and extended inland from Wells-next-the-Sea to Fakenham. The Wells–Cromer section is run by Sanders Coaches and still known as Coasthopper, but now extends inland to North Walsham.

South Transport Project

A £7 million programme to redevelop the infrastructure of the town centre in the 2010s was largely provided by the Community Infrastructure Fund. The department programme is a collection of smaller developments, which are detailed below.

Work on a cycle and bus route between the town centre and South Lynn began in June 2010, at a cost of £850,000. It is 720 metres long, from Morston Drift to Millfleet, with buses in both directions, and features a separate path for pedestrians and bicycles, which coincides with the bus route when crossing the Nar sluice. As part of the development, the Millfleet–St James' Road junction is being developed.

A contraflow lane for bicycles was proposed, but not built along Norfolk Street from Albert Street to Blackfriars Road. This would have included a development of the Norfolk Road/Railway Road junction to better accommodate buses and bicycles. Similar work was to have taken place at the Norfolk Street–Littleport Street junction, so that buses would not get caught in the town-centre gyratory system.

Bus priority measures have been added to four sets of traffic lights along St James' Road. These give buses quicker access to the town centre and normalise journey times.

Southgates roundabout has been redeveloped. Many of its approach roads have been widened in the run-up to the junction and the road markings redone in an attempt to improve lane discipline. It is a noted congestion hot spot.

Other small developments are taking place to make junctions more car-friendly.

Media
King's Lynn has two local newspapers: the twice-weekly Lynn News, owned by Iliffe Media, and Your Local Paper, a free weekly ( now also owned by Iliffe Media). KL magazine is a free lifestyle magazine that promotes the best of west and north Norfolk. It has been published monthly since October 2010 and is distributed to local businesses (now issued bi-monthly).; it also issues special Food and Home Design & Build editions.

King's Lynn is served by BBC Radio Norfolk, Heart East, Greatest Hits Radio (West Norfolk), KL1 Radio, Radio West Norfolk and all national BBC radio stations. The local college has a web-based TV station run by media students, entitled SpringboardTV.com, and holds an awards ceremony at the end of each academic year.

Television services are provided by BBC East, BBC Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, ITV Anglia, and ITV Yorkshire.

Education
Three of King's Lynn four secondary schools are located in the town: King Edward VII School, the King's Lynn Academy and Springwood High School. The fourth, St Clements High School, is in the nearby village of Terrington St Clement. The first is known for its physical education department, King's Lynn Academy for its maths and IT specialities, and Springwood for performing arts and drama. The nearest independent school is Wisbech Grammar School in Cambridgeshire.

The town's further education college, the College of West Anglia, was founded in 1894 as King's Lynn Technical School. In 1973, it was renamed Norfolk College of Arts and Technology, and, in 1998, merged with Cambridgeshire College of Agriculture and Horticulture, which added campuses in Wisbech (now closed) and Milton; it changed the name to the College of West Anglia. It retained this name in April 2006, when it merged with the Isle College in Wisbech.

St George's Guildhall
The Guild of St George was founded in 1376 and acquired land for the Guildhall of St George in 1406, which was in use by 1428. It offered plays in the Guildhall, the first known being a nativity play in January 1445. This makes it the UK's oldest working theatre.

The Guildhall was used for meetings, dinners and performance until 1547, when King Edward VI dissolved the Guilds. It then became the property of Lynn Corporation and known as the Common Town Hall. Research by the University of East Anglia confirms as probable the oral history of King's Lynn that William Shakespeare performed in the Guildhall in 1593. This is the only still-working theatre in the world that can credibly claim to have hosted Shakespeare. In 1766, Guildhall shows were so popular that a new interior was built inside the present structure, probably on the earlier footprint. By 1945, the Guildhall was almost derelict and in danger of demolition. It was bought by Alexander Penrose, who gave it to the National Trust in 1951. The Pilgrim Trust, Arts Council and public subscription led to conversion into an Arts Centre. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother opened it in July 1951 and launched the King's Lynn Festival.

Today, the Guildhall is owned by the National Trust and leased to the Borough Council of King's Lynn and West Norfolk. Various groups hire the building for a year-round programme of theatre, dance, music, lectures and film; amongst them are Shakespeare's Guildhall Trust, King's Lynn Festival, King's Lynn Community Cinema Club. Shakespeare's Guildhall Trust have volunteers who open the theatre to visitors.

Arts
Composer Ralph Vaughan Williams visited King's Lynn in January 1905 and collected several folk songs from the area.

Ruth, Lady Fermoy, a concert pianist, moved to King's Lynn in 1931 as the bride of Lord Edmund Fermoy, who would become the town mayor and local MP. She helped to organise concerts of high-standard professional music.

In 1951, Lady Fermoy complemented the Festival of Britain with a King's Lynn Festival of the Arts. She was a friend and lady-in-waiting to Queen Elizabeth – later the Queen Mother – who agreed to become the festival patron and, in July 1951, officially opened the restored St George's Guildhall. She remained an enthusiastic and active supporter and patron of the festival until her death in March 2002.

The King's Lynn Festival remains the premier music and arts festival in West Norfolk. It is primarily known for classical music, but also hosts jazz, choral, folk, opera, dance, films, talks and exhibitions, along with fringe events each year.

The King's Lynn Literature Festivals are held on single weekends in March (fiction) and September (poetry) each year, usually in the town hall. The Annual Hanse Festival first took place in 2009.

Displays
Storeys of Lynn Museum opened in March 2016, as part of the King's Lynn Town Hall complex. Set within the newly-revealed vaulted undercroft of the 15th-century Trinity Guildhall, it presents the town's collection in an extensive, nationally significant interactive and multi-media exhibition. True's Yard Fisherfolk Museum displays the social history of the North End fishermen, run by volunteers. It includes a cottage and a smokehouse. Since 2013, there has been a local award-winning Military Museum operated by The Bridge for Heroes Charity to raise funds. Lynn Museum, run by Norfolk Museums Service in Market Street, covers the town's local history and the Bronze Age timber circle Seahenge.

Festival Too is held in Tuesday Market Place each summer. Performers have included Midge Ure, Deacon Blue, Suzi Quatro, 10cc, Mungo Jerry, the Human League, the Buzzcocks, M People, Atomic Kitten, Kieran Woodcock, S Club and Beverley Knight.

The Majestic Cinema in the town centre is the town's only cinema.

King's Lynn's main venue for concerts, stand-up comedy shows and other live events is the Corn Exchange, in Tuesday Market Place. Many smaller venues such as Bar Red and the Wenns contribute to the local music scene, along with acts from other parts of the country.

Mart

In the 16th century, King's Lynn's Tuesday Market Place hosted two trade fairs that attracted visitors from as far as Italy and Germany. As the importance of such fairs declined, the Mart has become a funfair, reduced to a single fortnight's annual event that begins on 14 February (Valentine's Day). It is also a memorial to Frederick Savage, who partnered the Showmen's Guild of Great Britain to develop new funfair attractions.

Sport
The town's football club King's Lynn Town, play in the National League North as of the 2023–24 season. It was formed in 2010, after the original King's Lynn FC was wound up in December 2009. Its home games are played at The Walks Stadium in Tennyson Road.

King's Lynn's speedway team, the King's Lynn Stars, races at the Adrian Flux Arena in Saddlebow Road. The track has been run since 1965 on an open licence. It hosted Speedway-type events in the 1950s.

One of the town's basketball clubs, King's Lynn Fury, previously played in the National League out of Lynnsport and represented the town in national competitions from 2004 to 2017. Lynn Nets, formed in 2008, also runs a programme in local competitions.

The historic hockey team The Pelicans, dating from 1920, currently plays at Lynnsport, having been based in nearby North Runcton until 1996.

Notable people
• Nick Aldis (born 1986), wrestler known as Magnus etc., is billed as from King's Lynn.

• Robert Armin (c. 1563–1615), actor with Lord Chamberlain's Men and writer, was born in Bishop's Lynn.

• Thomas Baines (1820–1875), painter and explorer in Africa and Australia, was born in King's Lynn.

• William Baly (1814–1861), physician extraordinary to Queen Victoria, was born and raised in King's Lynn.

• Robert Barnes (c. 1495 – 1540), an English reformer and martyr.

• Mrs. Bernard Beere (1851–1915), actress

• Emily Bell (born 1965), journalist and academic, was born in King's Lynn.

• Martin Brundle (born 1959), Formula One racing driver and commentator, was born in King's Lynn, as was his racing-driver son Alex in 1990.

• Frederick Robert Buckley (1896–1976), author and broadcaster

• Charles Burney (1726–1814), historian of music, served as organist of St Margaret's Church for nine years from 1751.

• Charles Burney (1757–1817), scholar and bibliophile, was born in Lynn.

• Frances Burney (1752–1840), novelist (Evelina etc.) and diarist, was born in Lynn.

• Sarah Burney (1772–1844), novelist, was born in Lynn.

• John Capgrave (1393–1464), prior, historian and theologian, was born and died in Bishop's Lynn.

• Richard Carpenter (1929–2012), actor, screenwriter and author, was born in King's Lynn.

• Gerry Conway (born 1947), percussionist with Cat Stevens etc., was born in King's Lynn.

• G. G. Coulton (1858–1947), historian and controversialist, was born and partly educated in King's Lynn.

• Samuel Gurney Cresswell (1827–1867), naval captain and Northwest Passage explorer, born and died in King's Lynn.

• Joseph Dines (1886–1918), England amateur footballer and Olympic gold medallist (1912), born in King's Lynn.

• Clara Dow (1883–1969), soprano in Gilbert and Sullivan operas, was born in King's Lynn.

• Tim FitzHigham (born 1975) multi-award winning comedian, writer and record holder was born in King's Lynn

• Charles Wycliffe Goodwin (1817–1878) Egyptologist, bible scholar and judge of British Supreme Court for China and Japan was born and raised in King's Lynn. (Brother of Harvey Goodwin)

• Francis Goodwin (1784–1835), architect, was born in King's Lynn and kept a house there.

• Harvey Goodwin (1818–1891), bishop and religious writer, born and raised in King's Lynn.

• Florence Green (1901–2012), one of Britain's oldest people, British World War I veteran, moved to King's Lynn in 1920.

• William Gurnall (1616–1679), author and clergyman

• Ian Hamilton (1938–2001), poet and critic, was born in King's Lynn to Scottish parents.

• Deaf Havana (formed 2005), English post-hardcore rock band, formed in King's Lynn.

• Charles Edward Hubbard (1900–1980), botanist specializing in grasses, attended King Edward VII Grammar School.

• John Hullier (c. 1520–1556), Protestant martyr, was burnt at the stake for preaching in Lynn.

• Jack Huston (born 1982), actor, appeared as Richard Harrow in Boardwalk Empire, in a supporting role in American Hustle, and as the eponymous lead in Ben-Hur (2016 film) historical drama.

• Kathryn Johnson (born 1967), Olympic field hockey player, was born in King's Lynn.

• Sir Benjamin Keene (1697–1757), diplomat successful in Spain, was born and educated in King's Lynn.

• Margery Kempe (c. 1373) first autobiographer in English, born and probably died in Bishop's Lynn.

• Anne Long (c. 1681–1711) friend of Jonathan Swift, fled from creditors to King's Lynn and died there.

• George North (born 1992), Wales rugby union international, was born in King's Lynn.

• Barbara Parker (born 1982), Olympic track and field athlete, was born and educated in King's Lynn.

• Lucy Pearson (born 1972), women's test cricketer and educationalist, was born in King's Lynn.

• Ali Price (born 1993), Scotland Rugby Union player, born in King's Lynn.

• Miranda Raison (born 1977), actress

• William Richards (1749–1818), Baptist minister, wrote a history of Lynn.

• Edward Villiers Rippingille (c. 1790–1859), genre and portrait painter, was born in King's Lynn of farming parents.

• Joan G. Robinson (1910–1988), children's writer, lived in King's Lynn with her writer husband Richard Gavin Robinson.

• George Russell (born 1998), Formula One driver for Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team was born in King's Lynn

• Martin Saggers (born 1972), England cricketer and umpire, was born and raised in King's Lynn.

• Hardiman Scott (1920–1999), journalist, broadcaster and novelist, was born in King's Lynn.

• Helen Slatter (born 1970), Olympic swimmer, was born in King's Lynn.

• Roger Taylor (born 1949) musician and drummer of Queen, born in King's Lynn.

• Adam Thoroughgood (1604–1640), leading colonist in Virginia Colony, was born and raised in Lynn.

• Simon Thurley (born 1962), architectural historian and head of English Heritage, owns a second home in King's Lynn.

• Gwladys Sutherst Townshend (1884–1959), Marchioness of Townshend, served as Mayor of King's Lynn in 1929.

• George Vancouver (1757–1798), naval officer and explorer after whom Vancouver, BC, is named, was born in Lynn.

• Lucy Verasamy (born 1980), TV weather forecaster, attended King Edward VII School.

In popular culture
Ruth Galloway, fictional heroine of Elly Griffiths' novels, is a forensic anthropologist living in a cottage near King's Lynn and teaching at the fictional University of North Norfolk.

Peter Grainger's DC Smith Investigation series of detective novels is set in "Kings Lake", a thinly-disguised King's Lynn.

The fictional comedy character Alan Partridge was born in Queen Elizabeth Hospital, King's Lynn. The character itself, played by Steve Coogan, grew up in Norwich and frequently makes references to Norfolk.

Media appearances
King's Lynn and surroundings have since the early 20th century been popular with film and TV producers. Their architecture and landscape often allow them to stand in for other parts of the world, especially the Netherlands and France. The town appeared as the Netherlands in The Silver Fleet (1943) and One of Our Aircraft Is Missing (1942), as Germany in Operation Crossbow in 1965, and as France in 'Allo 'Allo!, the long-running BBC comedy.

The town served as an earlier Dutch New York in the 1985 feature film Revolution. The BBC series Lovejoy also used the town, as did the Anglia Television series Tales Of The Unexpected and the Granada series Sherlock Holmes, starring Jeremy Brett in the title role.

In the early 2000s, the BBC used the town bus station, local roads and the nearby Royal estate of Sandringham in the comedy drama series Grass, featuring Simon Day. It has, in recent times, appeared many times on programmes such as the BBC's Antiques Road Trip, Flog It!, and a BBC Four documentary The Last Journey of the Magna Carta King, following the trail of John, King of England and how he lost his treasure in the Wash.

 * King's Lynn Minster (St Margaret's)
 * King's Lynn Power Station
 * List of buildings in King's Lynn
 * List of people from King's Lynn

title: King's Lynn


text:
Talk:Frédéric Chopin/Archive 4

Frédéric instead of Fryderyk?
Why is the French name used instead of the Polish one, despite the fact Fryderyk is Polish? I would understand it if the name Frédéric was English... BeŻet pl (talk) 12:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure, but I think Chopin himself changed it when he emigrated to Paris. -- La Pianísta!  00:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Doubtless he did what many, if not most, people do when they migrate: adopt the local versions of their given names.  I expect that, in correspondence with family and other Poles, he used the original Polish versions.  Nihil novi (talk) 04:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hullo
Hullo, Can anyone help me please I need to know what the hell (if anything) Chopin though about Beethoven, for some reason I remember somewhere I heard/read that he disliked him but later on started to respect him. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Please! 193.60.133.205 (talk) 14:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

 * See the article about Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 32. It notes that Chopin "greatly admired" this sonata. But you'd best ask the Humanities reference desk if you need further help; general talk pages aren't generally accepted as places for questions such as that. =) -- La Pianísta!  02:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

He was christened 'Fryderyk', and that is what is printed in the Grade 8 piano anthology and the Naxos Music Library biography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hermanj (talk • contribs) 20:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Why did it change?
Who exactly thought it was a good idea to replace an actual PHOTOGRAPH of Chopin with a painting? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Purple Elite (talk • contribs) 06:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't know whose idea it was. But it seems a good idea to have, at the beginning of the "Chopin" article, a representation of Chopin from the period of his prime (Delacroix's 1838 painting) rather than from his final year, when he was at death's door (Bisson's 1849 photo, which is now in the section where it should be).  Nihil novi (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Balls. We should have both.  Or "bolth" as I sometimes say.  When drunk.  Sugarbat (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Archive?
A trifling thing...isn't it about time to archive the Chopin discussion page? -- La Pianísta!  22:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Done ... :) I retained threads from April for continuity (feel free to move any back that anyone thinks are active)  Antandrus  (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Final two years
The present "Final two years" section badly needs rewriting for narrative coherence and English usage. First, however, someone needs to verify the information, much of which comprises bits of circumstantial evidence, apparently meant to suggest that Jenny Lind planned to marry Chopin (it is not clear just what his view of this may have been, or whether he even knew about it) and that she supported him financially in the final months of his life.

If that sketchy narrative cannot be substantiated, it may be necessary to revert to a more traditional, if perhaps less sensational, account of Chopin's final two years. Nihil novi (talk) 06:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I've gone ahead and revised the "Final two years" section. Additional relevant information can be added to it when adequate documentation warrants.  Nihil novi (talk) 07:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

 * 1. I find it unfortunate that Nihil novi, with no apparent justification other than his/her personal opinion, suddenly has reverted the ‘Final two years’ section to an earlier and inaccurate version. The cancelled section was posted in March 2008 after a thorough discussion among several parties including MusicConnoisseur, now La Pianista (which for some reason is no longer visible on this page).

 * 2. Nihil novi does not seem to be familiar with the new research evidence on the 1848-1849 period (which includes proof of faulty translation and citation by various scholars in the past, as well as original period documents not published before). Reference was made in the earlier Wiki section to this new material and its validation, including an ISBN-noted biography of 2003, a comprehensive research report and press articles.  It includes information to answer Nihil novi’s specific questions on Chopin’s reaction to Jenny Lind’s marriage proposal and on her financial patronage of him in 1848-1849.

 * 3. The fundamental part of this material was endorsed in 2003-2005 by the Fryderyk Chopin Institute in Warsaw; by the noted Chopin experts Prof. Dr Irena Poniatowska of the Institute of Musicology, University of Warsaw and Prof. Dr hab. Mieczysław Tomaszewski, Akademia Muzyczna, Kraków; by three British university scholars; and by other bodies.

 * 4. Moreover, in April 2008, the authors of the research and publications posted online a summary of an updated “substantiated narrative”, seemingly supported by what Nihil novi would call “additional relevant research information” and “adequate documentation” including the above endorsements. – I therefore recommend that Nihil novi or Wikipedia reinstate the previous section. Jean de Beaumont (talk) 12:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The material that I replaced comprised scraps of circumstantial evidence and innuendo, composed in unintelligible English, meant to produce a convincing impression about a questionable hypothesis. I am glad that your English has now improved.  By all means introduce relevant information, but please do not attempt to pass off unverified hypotheses and irrelevant information as proven fact.  Nihil novi (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Nihil novi is a lone user who is unable or unwilling to understand and accept research findings documented by a new book and a research report, which have been validated since 2003 by the Fryderyk Chopin Institute in Warsaw, by noted Polish Chopin experts and by British scholars associated by the Universities of Edinburgh and St Andrews. Nihil novi’s “traditional” version of Chopin’s ‘Final two years’, referring extensively to a few pages of a 1937 biography by Zdzisław Jachimecki, is riddled with inaccuracies and assumptions as shown by the new research (the reason for going to London, Jane Stirling, Chopin's will, his feelings, Lablache, etc.).

 * The issue is not Nihil novi’s purported “unintelligible English”. Nor ought it be the tone of his/her last comment, which does not facilitate a meaningful discussion of the substance (inadvertently positioning himself/herself as one of the ‘partisans who might prefer the status quo’ as noted in an IHT letter today on “The failure of Wikipedia). – Once more, I recommend the previous version to be re-instated. Jean de Beaumont (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

 * No, Jean de beaumont, I must say that Nihil Novi is correct in his assessment of the previous revision, though calling it "unintelligible" may have been a step too far. I saw numerous problems in copyediting and style myself, but I was reluctant to edit (partly because my edits were reverted). I don't think it is so much of N.N.'s refusal to accept the information (he wouldn't do that to an article he cares so much for), but instead, his unfamiliarity (and, admittedly, mine as well) with the new information. Your contributions, Jean, are much appreciated, and I hope that we can expediently integrate the new material so that we can boost this article to FA status. I think it's best we come to a consensus, or a re-adding of the new information with copyediting fixes and grammar touchups. I would be gladly willing to help.
 * P.S.: The previous discussion has not "disappeared." It has been archived, and you can find the link to it at the top of the page. -- La Pianista!  23:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Go easy on style - watch for POV
Nihil novi's edit, as soon as his little hands could reach the keys from as soon as his hands could reach the keys is verging on editorial. The only reason I don't take "little" back out is that most people would agree that a child just barely able to reach piano keys most likely does have small hands -- but that's also the reason the adjective could be considered gratuitous (since it's empirical knowledge). I can see this user has devoted lots of time and energy to this article and I'm not at all interested in discouraging that effort, but please do try and keep the style encyclopedic. Sugarbat (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The "little hands" simply follows the source, Jachimecki. I wouldn't fight for "little," but on the other hand it does make it easier to visualize little Chopin reaching to the keyboard.  Nihil novi (talk) 20:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

 * This isn't an essay, is my point -- it's an encyclopedia article, and in the same sentence Chopin's already described as just having barely reached piano keys. As I pointed out, above, we don't need to embellish what doesn't need embellishment.  Sugarbat (talk) 20:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * P.S. If we're using exact wording from a source, it's best to put the quote in quotes ("") (and, of course, cite it somehow). If Jachimecki said something that you particularly like about Chopin's hands (or anything else), and you want to include it in the article, by all means do so -- just format it correctly, and make sure the context is appropriate, etc.  If it's an opinion and *not* surrounded by quotes, then it will likely either be edited or deleted.  That's just how WP works.  :) Sugarbat (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Style-edit example and rationale
I'm doing this because I made several edits (to things I'd already worked on a few days ago, but which were subsequently reverted/edited) just now that I'm pretty sure are going to be reverted, in whole or in part, and I want to be clear about why I made them. (I don't normally do this kind of rationalizing on discussion pages, but it does appear as though this is one of those articles that's having trouble maintaining its NPOV dynamic, and in the struggle its overall narrative style is sometimes suffering. So I need to explain, for the record, why I'm doing what I'm doing, in general.)

Material as it appeared before I edited it a few minutes ago (w/o refs tags):

 * As a child, Chopin showed an intelligence that was said to absorb everything and make use of everything for its development. He would retain later his abilities in observation and sketching, a keen wit and sense of humor, and an uncommon talent for mimicry. A famous anecdote from his school years recounts a teacher being pleasantly surprised by a superb portrait that Chopin had drawn of him in class.

 * In those years, Chopin was sometimes invited to the Belweder Palace as playmate to the son of Russian Grand Duke Constantine Pavlovich, and was said to have charmed the irascible duke with his piano-playing. "Little Chopin's" popularity was attested by Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz's "dramatic eclogue," "Nasze Verkehry" ("Our Intercourse," 1818), in which the eight-year-old Chopin is featured as a motif in the dialogues.

 * During vacations in the countryside, Chopin was exposed to folk melodies that he would later refine into original compositions, and in letters home he parodied the Warsaw newspapers. Maurycy Karasowski recounts a family anecdote about how Chopin helped quiet rowdy children by first improvising a story and then lulling them to sleep with a berceuse (lullaby) — after which he woke everyone with an ear-piercing chord.

1.) In my edit of a few days ago, I'd combined this material into a single paragraph, because these are all detailed examples of the "intelligence" and "abilities" mentioned just above it. For some reason they were split -- again -- using no rational that I can recognize; I have put them back together again.  (At the very least, no paragraph ought to *begin* with phrasing like, "In those years,...".)

2.) I've noted, in the edit summary, my rationale for removing "he would retain later" briefly - but specifically, not only is this phrase redundant, it makes no sense in the context of the sentence or its paragraph.  I have no problem with someone rewording what I wrote (about Chopin/abilities having "matured" in tandem), as long as the rewording makes sense.

3.) A person can't "be" a "motif" in the above context -- not literally.  The conversations Niemcewicz had with the child Chopin inspired parts of the the dialogue in Niemcewicz's eclogue (and I've removed the quotes around "dramatic eclogue", because they're inappropriate (see WP:MOS -- e.g., you wouldn't use quotes around "comic novel" or "tragic play" in similar contexts). Changed this wording [back] to reflect the as it was stated before I edited it the first time, and which I assumed/assume was factual: Chopin was in *one* of the main dialogue-motifs (which is a different thing than "the main-dialogue motifs" or "one of the main-dialogue motifs" or "the dialogue motifs" or "a motif in the dialogues." I.e., in the eclogue were several main dialogues.  Those main dialogues had more than one motif.  Chopin was in one of the motifs of one of the main dialogues). If we're going to edit syntax, there ought to be a point (clarity, facts, etc.), and not only did I not see the point of this change, but it didn't match the information that was there before I tidied it a few days ago.

4.) I'm not changing "refine into original compositions," but not because I like it; I do not. I'm leaving it alone because I don't know enough about what Chopin specifically did, later in his career, with the folk music that inspired him in his youth.  But I will point out that "refining" and "original" don't play together.  Either he used bits of the music in the music he wrote himself, or he refined entire melodies -- but if the latter, they weren't "original." Strongly suggest someone (who knows more than I) work on that phrasing.

I feel like I did one or two things in addition to the above, but these are the main edits, and these are the kinds of things I'm checking for/fixing, in addition to general proofing/editing for punctuation, facts, POV, etc. Sugarbat (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

My edit (without tags):

 * As a child, Chopin showed an intelligence that was said to absorb everything and make use of everything for its development. As he matured, so did his abilities in observation and sketching, a keen wit and sense of humor, and an uncommon talent for mimicry. A famous anecdote from his school years recounts a teacher being pleasantly surprised by a superb portrait that Chopin had drawn of him in class. In those years, Chopin was sometimes invited to the Belweder Palace as playmate to the son of Russian Grand Duke Constantine Pavlovich, and was said to have charmed the irascible duke with his piano-playing. "Little Chopin's" popularity was attested by Julian Ursyn Niemcewicz's dramatic eclogue, "Nasze Verkehry" ("Our Intercourse," 1818), in which the eight-year-old Chopin is featured in a motif in one of the main dialogues. During vacations in the countryside, Chopin was exposed to folk melodies that he would later refine into original compositions, and, in letters, he sometimesparodied the Warsaw newspapers. Biographer Maurycy Karasowski recounts a family anecdote about how Chopin helped quiet rowdy children by first improvising a story and then lulling them to sleep with a berceuse (lullaby) — after which he woke everyone with an ear-piercing chord.

"Polishness" section not so hot yet
I've taken out one paragraph in this small section, and I want to take out another, but that would leave only one paragraph and I don't want people thinking I'm just a jerk.

Here's what's left:

 * Zdzisław Jachimecki notes that Chopin at every step demonstrated a "Polish spirit" in the hundreds of letters written in Polish, and in his relations with Paris's other Polish emigrés. Likewise Chopin improvised music to accompany Polish texts[citation needed]; but never musically illustrated a French or German text, even though numbered among his friends were several great French and German poets.[51]

I'm totally interested in reading about how Chopin's Polish heritage (changed from "Polishness," which means nothing to me/readers [not even Polish ones], especially since it's not defined in the section) inspired him in his music. I'd love to see this section expanded; sadly, though, "X said that Chopin was inspired by his Polishness" is also without meaningful content -- it's an introduction that just leaves me wanting more. Too, pointing out what Chopin did *not* do (write music for French/German texts) tells me nothing about what he *did* do (write for Polish texts). Here are some other things Chopin didn't do:

1. Write music for fingerpainting (even though, presumably, he knew some babies)

2. Write music for pigeons

See hidden comment in the first paragraph of that section for at least one thing I'd like to see there -- names (or descriptions, cited appropriately) of musical pieces Chopin composed, and for what/who (and not just that they were Polish; I want titles and author names) he composed them. I'd also love to know exactly why he was moved to do this -- not just "because he was so proud to be Polish," but an actual reason, or set of reasons. Like, "According to his letters to X, Chopin dearly loved kasha, and when Y wrote a poem about Galician buckwheat, Chopin expressed his enthusiasm in his "Minuet to Kasza in F Minor, With Bacon, Op. IV., for Y."

Ergo, without any related details I consider this paragraph superfluous at best, and, at worst, mildly (and irrelevantly) jingoistic.

 * In asserting his own Polishness, Chopin, according to Jachimecki, exerted "a prepotent influence [toward] the nationalization of the work of numerous later composers, who have often personally — like [the Czech] Smetana and [the Norwegian] Grieg — confirmed this opinion..."[52]

I didn't know what "prepotent" meant, either at large or in this context; I had to look it up. Unfortunately, though, the definition didn't help me much in the context of the sentence or the paragraph, because it's not clear to me what Jachimecki meant by "prepotent" in this quote. I mean, literally: I don't know what this means. In what way did Chopin's "assertion" strongly influence the evolution of...um...the "nationalism" of "works (whatever that means)" of "numerous" "later" "composers"? Who, exactly? And how? What about being Polish made Chopin proud/excited/inspired, etc.? How, exactly, did he "assert" his own "Polishness"? (It's not enough for me that he wrote music for unnamed Polish texts.) Who are "Smetana" and "the Norwegian"? (It drives me nuts when names are used in a main article, as sources, but no info is given in the narrative about who the sources are/why they're credible sources. For all I know, Smetana's your grandma and "the Norwegian," Grieg," is the guy who works at your grocery store, and knows a lot about cheese.  Please don't forget that people reading this article may not know anything at all about Chopin, let alone about Chopin-experts/his peers/music in general, etc.)  This is the paragraph I would have deleted completely in addition to paragraph #2, and I will, but not before I give the person who started to build this section a chance to beef it up. Because I think it's a great section idea.

[Punctuation note: In possessive-apostrophe use, always add an "s" to a singular noun (after the apostrophe) even if the noun itself ends in an "s" -- e.g., "Paris" = Paris's emigrés. Adding just the apostrophe means the noun is plural -- e.g., Mr. and Mrs. Smith together are the Smiths, and I know the Smiths' dog, Rover. Other examples:

 * Charles Dickens = Charles Dickens's London
 * three bears = three bears' porridge
 * Five houses = five houses' roofs
 * One patch of moss = the moss's border
 * Two patches of moss = the mosses' borders]

That is all for now. Sugarbat (talk) 22:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. In articles written in English, we should try and stay away from "the" when we're identifying nationality. I'm realizing this is probably a language issue more than anything else -- someone's editing whose first language isn't English. Generally speaking, when we're just naming nationality, we don't use the article "the" (as in "the Czech Smetana"). Semantically, what this does is imply either that there is more than one "Smetana," not all of whom are Czech (adjective), or (with a comma: "the Czech, Smetana") that we can either call this person "Smetana" or "the Czech (noun - not so nice)" -- neither of which, I think, was meant here. By and large it's a good idea to be more specific than just naming the nationality of a person/source (e.g., "the Czech trapeze artist, Smetana") because just the person's country of origin is generally not relevant or (more importantly) very interesting (by itself). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sugarbat (talk • contribs) 23:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Officially I give up
Okay - Right before my eyes, the changes I've made are either being reverted or manually changed -- either to something similar to before I fixed them, or something different but also non-encyclopedic.

I hate fighting over this stuff, so I'm going to back off. But please, Nihil -- your changes/additions are
 * 1.) tending to such bias that this article reads like your own personal essay,
 * 2.) is haphazardly formatted in terms of content,
 * 3.) is referring *not just* too much to a single source (Zdzisław Jachimecki, "Chopin, Fryderyk Franciszek," Polski słownik biograficzny, vol. III, 1937), but to only four or five pages of that source,
 * 4.) you're deleting/editing NPOV fixes,
 * 5.) using non-encyclopedic, non-professional language, and
 * 6.) not entirely comfortable w/the rudiments of English (just to name the most :consistent issues I'm recognizing).

In the best interest of this article, and of its readers, please especially review these Wikipedia guidelines, all of which you're consistently violating and to which you're deliberately preventing other editors from adhering:

 * WP:CITE
 * WP:WEASEL
 * WP:NPOV
 * WP:NOR

It makes no sense for me (or anybody) to waste editing time if there's going to be a pointless edit war here, but it makes me sad that this article not only needs so much more work, but it appears as though that work is going to be blocked by a single user. This is not fun, and not friendly. Sugarbat (talk) 07:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I do see your comment w/r/t month/year format, and wanted to apologize for not checking to see which was the preferred WP style -- AP or Chicago. It looks like, at least in that instance, WP likes AP; I'd assumed Chicago -- so you're right about that. I just don't want to be coming off as a giant blowhard. I really am only interested in making the article perfect; I promise. Sugarbat (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Sugarbat, I hope you won't give up, because you've done some good editing on this article; you've streamlined it, brought attention to things that should have been made clearer, questioned the inclusion of things that reflected a certain subjectivity. But I had hoped that you would also recognize that you sometimes misinterpreted things; it was mostly these misinterpretations that I have addressed in my most recent revisions.  I won't bore you or other readers with a detailed rehearsal of them here.  But if you have specific questions, I'll try to respond to them.  Nihil novi (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * NN -- It's entirely likely that I've reworded things that, had they not been reworded, would have required deletion (for WP:NPOV rule, mostly). Since I don't want to just yank big blocks of text without at least trying to edit them into conformity, I've reworded in ways that might not reflect what the original writer (you, or a resource you've used) meant to say (which mistake of mine actually does much to illustrate the murkiness of the portion needing correction -- if I couldn't tell what was meant by the original, unedited portion, it's reasonable to predict that readers will have similar problems).  I've done my best to try and rectify pieces of text instead of deleting them, and I did expect (indeed, hoped) that, since my intention was obvious (rewording for NPOV, etc.), any mistakes I was making in interpretation of fact might be corrected (by you, or another editor) without disrupting the spirit of the correction.  Sadly, that hasn't happened, at least as far as I can tell in your reversions/edits of my edits.  It's as though you either don't see what I'm trying to do, or don't care -- which is disconcerting.  It's clear that you care very much about this article; it's easy to get bogged down about an article/subject about which one feels strongly, and in that bog to make the mistake of becoming convinced one cares more than anyone else.  Maybe that's what's happening here?  I can't say for sure, but I do know there's trouble here that's going to turn into an edit war if people (including me) aren't careful.

 * Unfortunately, most of the problems that were (and are still) glaring in the article aren't based on anyone's misinterpretation of the facts of Chopin's life, etc. The biggest error repeating itself throughout the narrative is a non-neutral point of view (in the forms of lots and lots of adjectives and adverbs that aren't in quotes and aren't referred to as having been quoted/written/published), and the second biggest error covers general formatting, grammar, & punctuation.

 * Here's an example: You wrote He was drawn to the piano powerfully and exclusively from as early as his hands could reach the keys. Although I challenged the "facts" inherent in this statement (that he was "drawn" "powerfully" and "exclusively" to the piano) and wanted badly for this statement to be directly attributed to a specific person qualified to have made it, I left it alone just in case it was empirical knowledge with which I wasn't familiar.  I did, though, strike "little" -- not just because it's subjective, but because it was redundant (his "early age," as I pointed out when I made the edit, already implies (empirically) that his hands were "little."  What would have been important to document, had it been the case, might have been that his hands were extraordinarily large for a child's.  Instead of rewriting the sentence to include the "little" in a quote (since you clearly felt compelled to include it somehow), you put it back in, unedited, with nothing but a note on the discussion page (here): The "little hands" simply follows the source, Jachimecki.  That's not the appropriate place or method for justifying information that's been challenged.  You don't just put it back -- you reword or reformat it.

 * In other words, I felt justified in removing that entire sentence as being unclearly sourced and an example of inappropriate subjectivity on the part of an editor, but I left it because I don't want to be an ass. I've really only deleted things that I couldn't fix and couldn't leave in the article because they were clear violations of something (see above list of WP-style links).

 * Here's another (brief) example -- this sentence, which I edited yesterday, is now back in the article and appears exactly like this:

 * He had met the sixteen-year-old Maria Wodzińska in Poland five years earlier, and now fell in love with the charming, artistically talented, intelligent young woman and resolved to marry her.

 * This entire sentence should be deleted if you won't let it be edited. I've put the problems in bold.  They are:

 * 1.)Verb tense (inconsistent not just with the rest of the sentence, but with the rest of the article)

 * 2.)"charming," "artistically talented," "intelligent" -- these are adjectives (i.e., opinions) that are not directly attributed to a source (i.e., in a quote [""] or "So and so said that she was..." etc.). They don't belong in an encyclopedic article otherwise.  You have either not read, or have read but have decided to disregard, WP:NPOV and/or WP:V.

 * 3.) "Resolved to marry her." He may, indeed, have asked her to marry him -- we may be able to cite sources (witnesses, letters, etc.) that prove he asked her to marry him.  But this wording implies you know something about Chopin's inner thoughts that you can't possibly know.  Neither you nor I have any personal proof that Chopin "resolved" to do anything -- therefore, we reword this as either fact ("He asked her to marry him on [date]," or "He told X in a letter that he 'resolved to marry Maria.'") or we leave it out.

 * There are literally scores of examples like this over the past week or so (as long as I've been working on it; I'm not counting edits before I arrived) from you. It seems to me that you're not just nearly singlehandedly slanting this article and disregarding WP rules and guidelines, but you're keeping other people from fixing your mistakes in order to make the article better (i.e. factual, educational, interesting, etc.).

 * I'm really not going to work on this article any more, because it's frustrating. I did sleep on it to make sure I'm not just having a baby tantrum, and my conclusion was that if I *don't* move away from this article, I'm in danger of taking it too personally -- exactly what (among other things) I've been advising against.  Maybe I'll come back in a few months to see how it's going, but for now I really do want to back off, especially before things get really heated, and let others work on this one.  Sugarbat (talk) 18:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

 * What is outrageous about an author (Jachimecki) describing Maria Wodzińska as charming, artistically talented and intelligent? Print encyclopedias routinely include judgments that are equally, as you would argue, "subjective."  And how do you know that Jachimechi did not have evidence — say, one of Chopin's confessional letters to family and friends — that he resolved to marry her?  Nihil novi (talk) 05:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

 * NN: It's not "outrageous," nor did I say it was, to refer to the opinions of a qualified source such as Jamichecki appears to have been -- and you've actually made one of my points, yourself, in your question above. I don't know that Jachimecki didn't have evidence of such a thing, and I want to know.  I (as a reader) come to this article wanting to know more than I did before I came -- and if you can give it to me (the reader) in the form of explicit reference to Jachimecki's collection of facts, I'll be delighted!  What's important is that the context of (Jachimecki's, or any other qualified source's) opinions and/or conclusions should be clear in the narrative -- ideally, the information should either be in quotes ("") or it needs to be made clear in (some other fashion than a footnote to a page in the source text) that it was Jachimecki who believed Maria to have those traits (or that Jachimecki, in the course of his Chopin research, was told, by either Chopin or someone who knew Maria personally, that she had those traits).  Without such formatting or couching, such descriptions are peacocky (or jingoistic, in an example like, "Chopin, the ardent Polish patriot...") and therefore not only unencyclopedic in style (see WP:NOR), but annoying to the reader (because they impart no real information).

 * Don't get me wrong! It isn't *at all* that I don't want to learn about Maria and her wonderful characteristics. I didn't delete that stuff because I don't care, or don't think it's relevant; I actually feel exactly the opposite.  But if I learn about her characteristics at all, I want to know 1.) who thought she was so wonderful 2.) why he/she is/was qualified to judge and 3.) what about her led him/her to that opinion.  For example, in what way was Maria "charming"?  What did she do that revealed her artistic talents to someone/people qualified to opine?  And so on.  What I want to know (and what would make the article richer and therefore more valuable than it is now) is *why* Chopin fell in love with this person.  Don't just give me a list of characteristics, especially without reference to tangible manifestations of them.  It's not just encyclopedic; it's boring.  I promise I'm not being argumentative or ugly when I say that, either -- the truth is that I suspect you have tons and tons of valuable information inside your head that you can (because it's your head) refer to at will, and because you're so used to this access, you might be forgetting that other people can't see inside your head as well as you can.  :)   A good rule of thumb when stating, in an article, what's going to sound like an opinion ("Maria was charming."), is to ask yourself these questions: How do I know this? and Will other people know, without being told, how I know this?  If the answer to the second question is "no," then answer the first question in the narrative.

 * Here's an example (that I'm making up out of nowhere):

 * Bad:
 * George was the handsomest man in the village, and all the girls were in love with him.

 * Good:
 * [Name of famous painter]* after meeting George once at a party, traveled 700 miles from Munich, in the summer of 1837, to George's village to paint his portrait for free. <[ref]> The portrait was subsequently duplicated in color prints and engravings in 14 major periodicals all across western Europe between 1840-68, and George himself received thousands of letters, mostly via magazine publishers, from women he did not know; many of the letters contained blatant marriage proposals.<[ref]>  His portrait hung over the fireplace in the main hall at Georgehof until 1911, when it was donated by his great-grandson to the Louvre.<[ref]>
 * (note: If the painter isn't likely to be reasonably famous to English-language readers [like John Singer Sargent, Michaelangelo, Mark Rothko, etc.] [and therefore probably not starring in his own (English-language) WP article], then state his name and then who he was -- i.e., "Boris Hessemankewskyvedirka, respected Lithuanian watercolor painter, traveled 700 miles from Vilnius....")

 * What you (specifically -- Nihil novi) know is more valuable than any technical formatting -- but without the formatting, your knowledge is difficult for other people to access and interpret. The formatting (of an encyclopedic article) isn't just a set of gratuitous rules to make editor's lives harder; it's meant to help editors frame the material in the best possible way for public access and appreciation.  Not applying the right formatting is like (for example) pinning the Mona Lisa, unblocked, with thumbtacks to a dirty alley wall in the middle of the night.

 * Does this help at all? I mean in explaining what I'm trying to do/say?  Sugarbat (talk) 17:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Request comment -- need suggestions w/r/t editors working together on article WP:MOS compliance, etc.
OUTSIDE OPINION From what I can glean from the history and the discussion above, I'll make some points about style:
 * As for citation style, WP prefers neither APA or Chicago style. Per WP:CITE, you're basically just supposed to keep the article consistent- if one style is already being used, stick to it.

 * Right; although when I made the AP/ChiMan comment/apology, I was talking specifically about date formatting -- and, more specifically, about the "of"/no "of" between month and year.

 * Chicago: May of 2008
 * AP:      May 2008

 * Wikipedia evidently prefers no "of (which makes sense, as one of AP's goals is brevity of text)." Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Per the section, "go easy on style", the language Sugarbat removed was definitely unencyclopedic. Remember that, while some prose makes the article more interesting, encyclopedia articles are relatively dry in nature. I would definitely say that this edit was a good one.

 * The specific instance that you cite here is a good example of helpful streamlining that Sugarbat has contributed to "Chopin." And you will note that I did not revert it — though I did  remove his weasel expression, "some believe," and remedied his sentence's clumsiness by splitting it.  Nihil novi (talk) 08:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you, sort of. :) It's not my favorite method, but I was compelled to resort to weasel-kindness in this article in a couple of spots.  I, too, like to target/remove them, when I can avoid collateral damage -- but in the cases (in this article) where I either left one alone or added one myself, I did it because the only other option was to delete a whole sentence whose information carried a reference # -- and I hate to delete stuff that's cited if I can avoid it.  So, in a sentence like (and I'm making this up) Mr. Mophead was very angry when the book came out.[ref], where the source was a newspaper article, I might edit to It was rumored that Mr. Mophead was angry when the book came out.[ref] rather than cut the whole thing.

 * However. Let's look at the real sentence. Original (before I edited, added weasel, etc. -- bold mine):

 * After Chopin's matrimonial plans had been shattered, there appeared on his erotic horizon, but only episodically, a great lady, the beautiful and talented Delfina Potocka. She would be a muse to him (he composed for her his Waltz in D flat major, Op. 64) but even more so to the Polish Romantic poet Zygmunt Krasiński.

 * Now -- my edit:

 * (→Paris: deleted tons of adjectives. How about some facts about this person? (plus added media file))

 * After Chopin's matrimonial plans ended, Polish countess Delfina Potocka appeared episodically in Chopin's life, as muse and, some believe, romantic interest, and for whom he composed his Waltz in D flat major, Op. 64 — or, the famous "Minute Waltz."

 * [inserted tags for playable media file]

 * Your "fix

 * (→Paris: [no summary])":

 * After Chopin's matrimonial plans ended, Polish countess Delfina Potocka appeared episodically in Chopin's life as muse and romantic interest. For her he composed his "Waltz in D flat major," Op. 64 — the famous "Minute Waltz."

 * I'll let readers decide about the origin of the "clumsiness," and whether I deserve some credit for obviously attempting to salvage as much of the original wording as possible.

 * I do, though, keep an eye on the weasels (especially my own), and if no one makes a better edit in a few days, I'll come back and do it myself (or delete the whole thing). Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I also agree with what is in the section, "style-edit example". The previous revision that was cited was very wordy. When you look at it, the new paragraph said the exact same thing, without as much reading.

 * Sugarbat's version did not say "the exact same thing" — it materially altered the source's meaning in a number of points. Nihil novi (talk) 09:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Please see "not my favorite method," above. :) (And my related point there, which I'll restate:  If I couldn't tell what was meant by the original, unedited portion, it's reasonable to predict that readers will have similar problems. Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The sentence example in "Officially, I give up" is a good example. It's not encyclopedic to describe someone in that way. Nihil novi seemed to seek inclusion based upon the statement from the source, but the sources aren't held to the standards of WP:NPOV as the article is. Can you imagine the mess if articles on politicians, e.g. George W. Bush, were worded based upon the sources? It could range anywhere from the greatest man alive to a spawn of Hitler.

 * Also please see "peacocky" and "jingoism." Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Sugarbat's comments in "Officially..." (whatever that title was meant to convey) are more notable for vituperation and condescension than for reasoned critique. But he has demonstrated some ability in editing, and I believe that in time he will also develop some tact and care.  Nihil novi (talk) 09:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm a girl[bot]. But seriously, if I came across as condescending in the narrative cited (the "I Give Up" treatise), I apologize.  I was/am frustrated and I'm sure that was evident, but rather than (just) walking off in a (verbal) huff, I did make some effort to explain 1.) why I was frustrated 2.) what I had been trying to do with the article and 3.) why I believed the article (the real star in this melancholy cabaret) was suffering in general.  I gave examples -- which can sometimes be interpreted as condescending, but while I totally love the word "vituperation (tragically underrepresented in hip hop, for instance)," I can't see anything in my exit speech that demonstrated ill will, whereas your comment accusing me of same does, in fact, rub my electrodes in a funny (not funny-ha-ha) way. (How, for example, could I have meant anything other than complimentary when I said, "What you (specifically -- Nihil novi) know is more valuable than any technical formatting," and, "I suspect you have tons and tons of valuable information inside your head..."? I hope you didn't think I was being sarcastic or disingenuous, because I wasn't, at all.)

I will also (and probably only here, in the relative obscurity of this particular talk page, and only this once) say that I'm a professional copy editor, among other things. I do this for money. I try to apply pretty much the same degree of professionalism and related ethic (not to mention refreshing repartee) to my volunteer work on WP as to my bread-and-butter work. I make mistakes in both places, but I contribute my extensive "ability in editing" here, as there, with only one goal in my mind: to make the text perfect. If go nutty on occasion it is probably because of the existence of (necessary and valuable, but challenging) obstacles here that aren't quite as rampant offline -- and I apologize once again if it seems I've stepped on your toes for no other reason than I enjoy stepping on toes. Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Those are my thoughts. I hope Sugar bat doesn't give up because others disagree; their ideas are good ones. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 04:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree. Nihil novi (talk) 09:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Jeremy, for taking the time to look at the article and the edits, and for your comments. I do think I'm going to continue my break from editing Chopin at least for another week or so, mostly (at this point) because I'd like to see other people contribute.   I'll try and root up some Chopin admirers/scholars and direct them to the page -- beef up the gene pool, as it were (if anybody else uses the term "as it were," I will nuke it :) ) -- and check back myself later to see what magic has blossomed in the interim.  Until then

. Sugarbat (talk) 00:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:RFC tag
Since this was the first time I've ever used it, I'm not sure what the protocol is for how long to leave it up/under what circumstances to remove it. If one outside opinion is typically grounds for removing it, then I'll take it down myself, but if that's not the deciding factor, I'm inclined to leave it up for now, since the article itself is still in really bad shape (in my opinion), in terms of encyclopedic style and NPOV, mostly, and I'd really like to get a bigger consensus w/r/t a workable plan for editors to use in the process of making it better. In other words, I want to see some work get done, instead of done/reverted/done/reverted, etc., but I don't have any wonderful ideas about how to best make that happen in this particular case. I really believe this article's been up long enough to have reached featured status by now, and I think we should all be ashamed of ourselves until we can make that happen. Sugarbat (talk) 00:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Au revoir, mon POV
In the next day or two, I'm going to comb this article for [unsourced] opinions and remove them. I'll make an effort to reword if the context gives me some clues, but if I'm unable to do this to a piece of text, I will remove it. I'm just putting up this notice so no one can accuse me of coming in here and sadistically laying waste. This procedure might smart a little, but at least I'm giving everybody time to take some aspirin (and edit, add sources, etc.) Love, Sugarbat (talk) 18:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Now might be a good time (with POV concerns and all) to address my concerns with this sentence:

"He is widely regarded as the greatest Polish composer, and ranks as one of music's greatest tone poets by reason of superfine imagination and fastidious craftsmanship."
 * I know it's cited, but the language is far too flowery for me "superfine," "craftsmanship," etc. Any suggestions, per se?
 * P.S.: My apologies for not being one of the influential editors for this article, though it has a nice warm, fuzzy spot on my watchlist. :-) -- La Pianista!  03:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I hate to break it to you, but I'd already deleted almost all the language of which you speak, not once, but a number of times (see RfC tag, above, as well as the lengthy discussions, and the edit history of the article itself). It's also why I put the disclaimer up a couple days ago, because I expect most of my edits to be reverted. I'm now going to comb, as announced above. :)  I enthusiastically welcome you to come back later and critique!

 * (As for the cited stuff you mention specifically, I'm going to delete it unless such language is specifically referred to, in the article text, as being the opinion of a reliable source (as defined by WP). In other words, even if there's a ref tag at the end of a paragraph, if a sentence sounds like an opinion and can't be traced, in context, to a source, I'm going to edit or delete.  Just to be clear.)  Sugarbat (talk) 20:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Frédéric Chopin/Archive 4


text:
Talk:Robert Guiscard

Untitled
Possible copyright infringement: This article appears to be a copy of http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07072b.htm ("Copyright © 1910 by Robert Appleton Company Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight"). Mrwojo

Shouldn't the 1910 copyright be void already? The online edition copyright only protects the links and the page layout which was not copied. -- JeLuF 11:31 Oct 6, 2002 (UTC)

Due Dilligence
While the original 1910 article is in the public domian, the edited derivative would not be. The Catholic Encyclopedia does update articles, as well as adding new articles. While I expect that this article is probably pure 1910 untouched public domain, I would want to verify it before stealing an updated work. Either comparing the article to the 1910 version manually, or getting a signoff from new advent itself. Good luck Storm

Robert Guiscard (dead in 1085) was not described by Anne Comnène (born in 1083) but she described the son of Guiscard, Bohémond de Tarente during the 1st Cruisade. CALABRIA Geoffrey (France, 27/02/2005)

Robert Guiscard's page says his lst wife, Alberada is the aunt of Girard and her page says she is his daughter, I vote for the latter. Witenmote

According to GA Loud, Alberada is is Girard's aunt, so I'd go for that. ~Anon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.88.142.148 (talk) 17:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

What is a pied-à-terre?
I assume this is a French expression which is ok but many of us don't speak French. Does it mean something like foot on the ground? Perhaps this term could be replaced by with something that most people would understand?

davidzuccaro 05:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It's a fancy way of saying "a home". -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

It's in both of my English dictionaries. Perfectly acceptable for use in English-language Wikipedia, I'd say.

Religion
I changed Western Christianity to Latin Christianity b/c it is not clear to me that all Greek Christianity is non-Western. I also removed a reference to a supposed shift from Constantinople to Rome. The Greeks of southern Italy were pretty close to Rome. Also, "Roman Empire" and "Greek Orthodoxy" belong to different periods. In English, for the time period, we say "Byzantine Empire". I also removed the ridiculous remark about "the few [Muslims] the Normans didn't kill in battle", which implies that most Muslims in Sicily were killed in battle. They weren't. Many became mercenaries and the practice of employing them continued as late as 1181 (perhaps later). Srnec (talk) 04:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Srnec, were you not an atheist, you'd know that Western Christianity does not include the Eastern Churches, read the article on it; "Latin Christianity" is a neologism you've just made up on the spot. Eastern Christianity includes the Balkans and Eastern Europe (where the Orthodox Churches are from). Christianity on the island of Sicily was specifcally Orthodoxy before the Normans, the Orthodox Church existed long before the 1054 schism, as the first Bishop of Byzantium (Patriach of Constantinople in the modern day) was St. Andrew the Apostle).

 * Also for the love of god, stop with this hippy dippy sanitising of ancient warfare just because it was between radically different cultures. The Normans in the name of Christianity (with the backing of the Pope) went to Sicily and did kill muslim overlords in warfare who were holding the native Sicilians under harsh taxes. This happened, its a war. Guiscard killed muslims with his sword, he reconquered the island through warfare. If it was up to you I'm sure you'd try to pretend James the Moor Slayer's nickname was instead "James the Moor Bestfriend" or something of that manner. Write about the history that is there, do not rewrite history to match your own modern ideals. - Gennarous (talk) 11:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Gennarous, I respect WP:NPA and WP:CIVILITY even when breaking them would, in my opinion be justifiable.
 * Here are four books that use the neologism "Latin Christianity" in their titles: The Origins of Latin Christianity by Jean Daniélou, D. Smith, and J. A. Baker; Church, Book, and Bishop: Conflict and Authority in Early Latin Christianity by Peter Iver Kaufman; Prefaces to Canon Law Books in Latin Christianity: Selected Translations, 500-1247 by Robert Somerville and Bruce Brasington; and The Cult of the Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity by Peter Brown.
 * Orthodox Christianity is not defined by the bishop of Byzantium's existence, but by a schism with the church of Rome. Eastern Christianity exists from an early point (not the apostolic period, though), but not Eastern Orthodoxy.
 * The Normans no doubt killed many Muslims (thousands) during their invasion of Sicily, but they did not kille very Muslim in the island nor do I have any reason to believe they killed most. Sicily was not just garrisoned by Muslims, it was inhabited by some too.
 * Stop levelling ridiculous accusations at me. James was neither the Moor's best friend nor his slayer. I am not an atheist and it wouldn't matter if I were. I am a Christian. Srnec (talk) 01:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Prior to the East-West Schism, clear-cut identifications as "Roman Catholic" West or "Orthodox" East are hard to make if not anachronistic. Have either of you considered identifying pre-Muslim and/or Norman conquest Italians and Sicilians as Chalcedonian Christians? This was the previous major division of Christianity into factions. Dimadick (talk) 04:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree, but this isn't really about factions so much as about different "institutional cultures". There is a linguistic component too, but I think that we can speak of at least some of the Greek churches of southern Italy in the 8th through 12th centuries as definitely "Western". West/East is cultural and historical, not factional, in my opinion. Does that make sense? Srnec (talk) 05:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

 * The real question here is what language the liturgy was conducted in. There weren't major theological differences between the Greek and Roman churches at this point, just minor variations in liturgical observance. My sources tend to refer to the pre-Norman conquest churches as "Byzantine," suggesting that the liturgy was in Greek. I would rather not use the term "Chalcedonian," as it implies a Christological difference that did not then exist, especially in the West. I propose changing the wording to "an area that historically followed the Byzantine rite." Kafka Liz (talk) 23:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Biased content?
This article seems to transgress WP:NPOV with the following section: "Guiscard's last enterprise was his attack on the Byzantine Empire [...] In this enterprise Guiscard crossed swords with his most redoubtable opponent, the only one worthy of himself, in a clash of swords that would become legendary in the years after. In this struggle he met his nemesis in the person of the greatest man of the age: Emperor Alexius." Any thoughts on this? Why is the Byzantine emperor the 'greatest man of the age'?

Furthermore, the article states that Robert Guiscard took up the cause of Michael VII Doukas, but Anna Komnene ostensibly claims that he actually supported Raiktor, a fraudulent impersonator? If so, the article ought to reflect this. 130.226.70.225 (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Clearly at sixty-six he was still well able to wield a broad sword, and come to blows with the emperor, haha, all joking aside; I've not found anything to suggest that the man he called Michael VII was actually Michael VII and the Byzantine sources tend to refute that (mind you I only know the Byzantine sources), that being said, honestly who can say? The Alexiad, while a great source, is clearly biased in favor of Alexios Komnenos, and so maybe Anna just made it up, but this is now entering speculation, but one piece of evidence to put toward it is how would she know his name? But anyhow, I edited the page, and referenced her history in regard to Raiktor/Michael VII, if the guy actually was Michael VII would my mind be blown? No, but I agree that with the sources I have the only identity stated is Raiktor. In regard to, "Why is the Byzantine emperor the 'greatest man of the age'?" As far as the Eastern Roman Empire is concerned, I think it's fair to say Alexios Komnenos was the greatest man of the age, he restored stability, reconquered territory lost, and installed a stable dynasty, but the greatest argument is really who else was there? George Maniakes was great, but alas died before he could accomplish anything truly great. That being said this is all opinion, and I wouldn't mind the statement being deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alcibiades979 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Children
Why doesn't the summary box list all the children? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Droopyfeathers (talk • contribs) 21:49, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Army Size
Raising an army of 38,000, seemingly the most Guiscard had ever mustered, to invade a near-defenseless Rome seems highly unlikely. This is likely relying on sources sympathetic to Henry IV which exaggerated the number to justify him fleeing the city. Matthew Kneale's book "Rome: A History in Seven Sackings" compares multiple sources and arrives at a figure <10,000. 204.156.167.82 (talk) 16:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Nickname
Hello, I am quite surprised by the introduction, which states that he was nicknamed the "Terror of the World," and this puzzles me because, apart from Guiscard and all its variations, he does not seem to have been referred to as the "Terror of the World" as a nickname. The source that includes this passage does not mention it. The only time he is referred to in this way is on his epitaph, which says, "Here lies Guiscard, the terror of the world." However, we can agree that this is quite light evidence to prove that it was a nickname; it is a common literary device in epitaphs where the deceased figure is compared to concepts or lyrical figures. While the epitaph is beautiful and impactful (I have added sources about the epitaph), it does not make it a nickname. AgisdeSparte (talk) 03:03, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Hi! I did indeed find out that the only mention of this phrase was in his epigraph (Hic terror mundi Guiscardus). I should’ve done more research before taking the information from the Italian page. Vittoriobr (talk) 07:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Robert Guiscard


text:
Talk:Languages of Europe

Which organisation do we follow?
Take the Germanic languages here. According to linguists including Robert Hinderling, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish (also Slovak and Czech) are more closely related than Bavarian and Alemannic are to "Standardgerman". But only 4 languages are listed.

If we follow ISO-639-3, we must at least split off Bairisch and Alemannic, or even "Platt" in northern Germany.

"German" today refers to "Standard German" in Germany, of which Bairisch is NOT a part.

You can call Bavarian and Alemannic Germanic, but not "Deutsch".

Or do we simply follow Politics and assign Language to one but not the other?

It could be a improvement when we differ between Low and Uppergerman. 320luca (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * ISO-639-3 is politics. Or rather sociolinguistics unhealthily mixed with comparative linguistics. E.g. every split from ISO-639-2 "de" was primarily made for lects with are spoken in areas where Standard German is not the Dachsprache, e.g. Colonia Tovar German, Hutterite German, Hunsrik, Cimbrian etc. With this split, the most closely related lects in German/Austria/Swiss were also given their own code, e.g. since the distance between e.g. Swabian and Colonia Tovar German is smaller than the one between Swabian and Standard German. High German varieties that don't have the privilege of being closely related to a diaspora variety didn't get their own code, even if they are (at least in their traditional form) unintelligible to speakers of Standard German (e.g. Central Hessian or Erzgebirgisch). –Austronesier (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian in the
Two IP editors (possibly one) keep separating Serbo-Croatian into Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin in the above mentioned section of the article, refusing to gather consensus for their disputed edits here on the talk page beforehand. I kindly request the latest such edit is self-reverted to the status quo version of the article. I'm not in the least touched by their edit summary, it only displays what kind of an editor we're dealing with here. –Vipz (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

 * This map is incorect
 * See Ethnologue 78.1.207.220 (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Corect languages is on ethnologue : https://www.ethnologue.com/
Corect languages is on ethnologue : https://www.ethnologue.com/ 78.1.207.220 (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is true that we cite Ethnologue here in this article, but only as a default source for speaker numbers. But we don't necessarily adopt their treatment of Serbo-Croatian standard varieties in the listing of language family members. I'll revert to the previous version that lists Serbo-Croatian as a single language. –Austronesier (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Serbian and Croatian are two different languages
https://www.ethnologue.com/ 78.1.207.220 (talk) 20:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.ihjj.hr/
Institute for Croatian language 78.1.207.220 (talk) 21:06, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Arab population in Europe
As far as I can tell from googling for sources, the 12 million figure for Arabs in Europe is actually the number of Muslims in Europe. While there's certainly a lot of overlap between those communities, several of the biggest Muslim countries aren't Arab countries, most significantly Turkey, Pakistan and Iran. Not to mention a whole host of smaller nations like Azerbaijan, Kazahkstan, etc. I'm going to change this field to "unknown." Tserton (talk) 18:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Languages of Europe


text:
Collège du Sacré-Cœur (Egypt)

Collège du Sacré-Cœur is a Roman Catholic French-language school located in Cairo, Egypt. The school hosts two campuses the original one in Ghamra founded in 1904 and a second campus founded in 1911 on Beirut street at Heliopolis. Despite being labelled a collège, the school covers all years from nursey through secondary and is a member of The Network of Sacred Heart Schools.

History
The Collège was founded in 1904 under the name Pensionnat du Sacré-Cœur (Sacred Heart boarding school). A second school was added at the urging of Ismail Sidky as a way to provide French-language instruction to the newly constructed city of Heliopolis in 1911. The school's building was built in 1900's with the distinct Heliopolis style modeled after the orientalist designs of Édouard Empain. The school's early classes had a small number of girls most of whom where European but overtime grew rapidly and would come to primarily consist of Egyptian citizens. During the First World War the school acted as a refuge for those fleeing under both the Ottoman and German empires. The school also served as the chapel and camp for Australians while students helped to aid those wounded at the hospital set up at the Heliopolis Palace Hotel. Similarly, during the Second World War, the school housed many refugees freeing from Nazi-occupied France.

Following the revolution of 1952, the school underwent many changes. The structure of the school would no longer be a Catholic boarding school instead focusing on day classes and opening up its doors to non-Christians. Coinciding with this was a shift from a purely French educational system to one focused on the French-language and a new "franco-egyptian" curriculum.

In 2005, the school was certified by the Institut Français to include courses to prepare students for the French Baccalauréat but does not offer the exam itself.

Architecture
The school's campus in Heliopolis has been noted for its distinct architecture in a neo-Mamluk style. It was in part designed by Édouard Empain as a part of his constructed city. The school would become a symbol of the neighborhood in Cairo and was even featured in a graphic novel and art installation in Dubai

title: Collège du Sacré-Cœur (Egypt)