text:
Southwest National Park

Southwest National Park is an Australian national park located in the south-west of Tasmania, bounded by the Franklin-Gordon Wild Rivers National Park to the north and the Hartz Mountains National Park to the east. It is a part of a chain of national parks and state reserves that make up the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area. Covering an area of 6183 km2, it is Tasmania's largest national park.

The park is well known for its pristine wilderness, remoteness and unpredictable severe weather. The area is largely unaffected by humans. Although evidence shows Aboriginal Tasmanians have visited the area for at least 25,000 years, and European settlers have made occasional forays into the park area since the 19th century, there has been very little permanent habitation and only minimal impact on the natural environment. Within the area there is only one road, to the hydroelectricity township of Strathgordon. The southern and western reaches of the park are far removed from any vehicular access. The only access is by foot, boat, or light aircraft.

The tiny locality of Melaleuca in the extreme south-west provides an airstrip and some very basic facilities, mainly managed by the Parks and Wildlife Service.

South West Tasmanian Aboriginal Nation and Black War
South West Tasmania has been inhabited for approximately 40,000 years, and isolated from mainland Australia since the Bassian Plain flooded 8,000 years ago.

Tools, bones and fireplaces found in caves in what is now the Franklin-Gordon Wild Rivers National Park date aboriginal occupation in south-west Tasmania back to at least 34,000 BP. The South West nation was one of nine across the state, and contained four known clans the Mimegin, Lowreenne, Ninene and Needwonne. They were nomadic hunter gatherers, with staple foods including shellfish, crayfish, seals, penguins along the coast, and wallabies, wombats and birds along the buttongrass plains.

There is some evidence to suggest that repeated burning of buttongrass moorlands by the South West Nation has caused it to propagate more widely than is natural. This was done to increase areas where wallabies and wombats can forage for hunting purposes.

European sealers hunted in Tasmania from 1798, shortly followed by settlements around the Derwent River, to the east. Conflict between the aboriginals and Europeans soon followed, cumulating in the Black War and the near-destruction of Aboriginal Tasmanians.

Early European exploration

The South West of Tasmania was first seen by Europeans in 1642 by Abel Tasman, but it was not known to be an island until Matthew Flinders and George Bass circumnavigated it 156 years later.

The far south west was first surveyed from land by James Sprent in 1854 when he reached Port Davey, becoming the first European to notice Federation Peak which he dubbed "the Obelisk". He later published this work as 'Map of Tasmania and Adjacent Islands'.

National Park Status
The core of the national park, an area of 239 km2 surrounding Lake Pedder was first created in 1955, and called the Lake Pedder National Park. It was a glacial outwash lake, which hosted numerous endemic species including the Lake Pedder earthworm and Pedder galaxias. Lake Pedder was famous among bushwalkers for its majesty and unique pink quartz sand. Dr Peter Hay reflected, "Had it still existed, it would have the same sort of status in Australian mythology as other landscape icons like Uluru and Kakadu and the Great Barrier Reef."

In 1968 the Tasmanian Government expanded the area to 1916 km2, renaming it the Southwest National Park. However, it was actually as scenic reserve, with protections removed so that the area could form a catchment of the Tasmanian Hydro Electric Commissions (HEC) Upper Gordon River hydro-electric generation scheme. The aim was to increase Tasmania's capacity to generate hydro-electricity, and attract secondary industry with the incentive of cheap renewable energy. The original Lake Pedder was controversially flooded in 1972, with the issue attracting attention of environmentalist groups around the state as they unsuccessfully opposed the dam. They later reformed, and successfully halted the Franklin River Dam, the first success of the greens movement in Australia.

In 1976 the national park was extended towards southwest and incorporated most of the Port Davey State Reserve, and continued to expand until it reached its present size in 2000.

The Southwest National Park was a biosphere reserve under the United Nations Biosphere Program from 1977 until its withdrawal from the program in 2002. Its designation as a biosphere reserve was due to the important world heritage values and human use values it contained. Some of these values included being a key breeding zone for the critically endangered Orange-bellied parrot, remnants of Aboriginal occupation and other historic heritage sites such as the Melaleuca – Port Davey Area Plan (Tasmania Parks and Wildlife 2003, p 2). This was followed by a World Heritage listing in 1982 which was then expanded to its current size.

Climate
The climate of the Southwest National Park is renowned for its adverse, often inhospitable conditions across all seasons of the year. As noted by the Melaleuca- Port Davey Area Plan the climate is characterised by high annual rainfall of over 2000mm (as per the Bureau of Meteorology Port Davey station records from 1946 to 2000), often very strong to cyclonic westerly or south-westerly winds, low temperatures, frosts and high incidence of cloud cover.

Flora
Although the climatic conditions of South-West National Park have been considered as rather inhospitable, or too unpredictable or capricious for humans to inhabit, as indicated by only the relatively small township on Strathgordon near the northern boundary of the park, it paradoxically is a major centre of biodiversity, with a number of species endemic to the park itself. This is not so more evident than with the flora that inhabits the national park.

In a rugged landscape dominated by buttongrass moorland, wet Eucalypt forest, coastal and scrub vegetation, the national park is home to 375 species of vascular flora from 84 families which represents up to 20 percent of Tasmania's flora. Of these, as noted by Tasmania Parks and Wildlife Service (2003, p 19), approximately 118 are endemic to Tasmania alone, with six of them listed as rare or endangered. This includes the King's lomatia (Lomatia tasmanica) which has been listed as endangered while others such as the blown grass (Agrostis aequata), Spring peppercress (Lepidium flexicaule) and dune buttercup (Ranunculus acaulis) are rare.

The park is also home to several vascular species of plant that are endemic and/or endangered, yet even with the research undertaken, very little is known about the non-vascular or bryophyte species such as mosses, hornworts etcetera. To date up to 128 species have been recorded which again represents 20 percent of the total bryophyte population in Tasmania. Of these six are endemic to the national park, and as noted by Parks and Wildlife Tasmania, eight have also been listed for conservation assessment (that is, whether they are vulnerable, endangered etcetera).

With such a significant number of vascular and non-vascular plant species and communities inhabiting the park, the main concerns to the vegetation within the park, based on carbon content in soils, written records and both current and past pollen spectra records, appears to be fire, which the area has been shown to have a significant record of, and more recently, the threat caused by the root rot fungus Phytophthora cinnamomi, particularly to the Buttongrass moorlands. To assist in protecting the national park from such threats, the Parks and Wildlife Service of Tasmania, in conjunction with the Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water and Environment, developed the Melaleuca – Port Davey Area Plan and Strategic Regional Plan for Phytophthora cinnamomi to ensure that inter alia regular monitoring and regular hygiene checks of visitors occurred. The hygiene checks were designed to prevent root rot from becoming a significant threat to these flora species and or communities of the park.

Wildlife
In an area that is rich in terms of ecological flora communities, the Southwest National Park is also a wilderness area that is uniquely rich in biodiversity in terms of the variety of fauna species that either have all of their Tasmanian population or a majority of their population inhabiting the park. Within this national park alone there are, as noted by Driessen and Mallick 2003, three species of terrestrial mammals, 10 terrestrial bird species, seven reptile species, three frog species, four freshwater fish and or marine fish that are endemic to this 600-thousand-hectare national park.

However, more pertinently the park is an important habitat to several species, including the orange-bellied parrot (Neophema Chrysogaster) and freshwater fish Pedder galaxias (Galaxias pedderensis), that are listed as critically endangered and extinct in the wild respectively under both Australian Commonwealth and Tasmanian legislation.

Birds
Of the threatened, endangered and the eight species that are simply endemic to the park, such as the fairy tern, wedge-tail eagle, green rosella and dusky robin respectively, the species that adds to the park's cultural and conservation uniqueness is the Neophema Chrysogaster, or more simply the Orange-bellied Parrot.

As noted under the Commonwealth's National Recovery Plan 2016 listed as Critically Endangered under Commonwealth Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999, Endangered under New South Wales Threatened Species Conservation Act 1995, South Australia's National Parks and Wildlife Act 1972, Tasmania's Threatened Species Protection Act 1995 and Threatened under Victoria's Flora and Fauna Guarantee Act 1988. At an international level the species has also been listed as Critically Endangered under International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources Red List (IUCN).

What makes the area unique is that this National Park, or more specifically within 10 kilometres of Melaleuca Lagoon, remains the only known significant breeding ground of this parrot. This occurs primarily between November and March with the birds migrating back to the coast of South-East Australia over winter following a route along the west coast of Tasmania and King Island. This breeding ground remains significant as there are currently only 50 Orange-bellied Parrots remaining in the wild with another 320 in captivity.

Additionally, although the numbers in captivity appear to suggest the program is working, despite efforts made in undertaking the captive breeding program, the breeding success, in particular, the egg fertility and genetic diversity, as noted in the National Recovery Plan, is lower in the captive population than the wild population. As such it has been seen as critically imperative to ensure that the remaining numbers in the wild and quality habitat is retained, particularly in regards to the breeding program. Fortunately, through regular monitoring, supplementary feeding, artificial nest boxes and protection of their nesting and foraging habitat in the park, this appears to be occurring despite the existing potential threats posed by fire, climate change and damage to habitat.

Mammals
With the number of mammal species that inhabit the park, the only one that appears threatened is the New Zealand fur seal, which as noted by the Melaleuca-Port Davey Plan, only regularly visits the offshore Maatsuyker Island during the breeding season.

Fish
Another unique aspect to this park is the freshwater community, particularly the fish. As noted by Tasmania Parks and Wildlife, the aquatic system in the park has had no introduced fish species recorded, which gives it high conservation value as there are few systems in Australia where this has occurred.

Although fish are relatively well studied within the park, that is, 37 percent of species have been discovered once, the numbers and research undertaken suggests that there is potentially a relatively large number of undescribed or undiscovered fish species that are endemic to the park. With such potential for discovery of new species, that alone would indicate that it remains a significant area for increased biodiversity amongst the marine life and warrants conservation.

However, of those fish species discovered such as the cusk-eel (Microbrotula sp.) and maugean skate (Zearaja maugeana) which are endemic to the park, there is one species of fish, known as the freshwater fish Pedder galaxias (Galaxias pedderensis) that has been listed both at a Tasmanian and Commonwealth level as endangered in 1995 and extinct in the wild in 2009 respectively. Once endemic to Lake Pedder within the national park, the Pedder galaxias is unfortunately no longer found within the park with the population only found at two translocations which were part of conservation management program undertaken in the 1980s to protect the species. Alongside the now extinct Thylacine in Tasmania, this case is indicative of ensuring that conservation measures are taken to protect species that are endemic to a particular area and have high conservation value, such as the Southwest National Park.

Reptiles and amphibians
Alongside a number of bird and mammal species, there are several reptile and frog species that are uniquely endemic to the park alone. These include three reptiles, the Tasmanian tree skink, ocellated skink and she-oak skink, and amongst the frogs, the Tasmanian tree frog, Tasmanian froglet and recently discovered moss froglet.

Environmental problems and threats
Even with such unique biodiversity amongst both the flora and fauna, there still exists environmental problems that threatened the conservation of that biodiversity within the park.

Of primary concern, like many conservation areas, is climate change. Changing temperature and rainfall patterns has caused drought, an increase in dry lightning induced fires, decreased vegetation growth and subsequent food supply for endangered species such as the Orange-bellied Parrot. Consequently, as a result of a decrease in food supply, particularly amongst the Buttongrass moorlands, the volunteers under the state program provide supplementary feeds for the endangered Orange-bellied Parrots.

The other major environmental threat is the root rot fungus Phytophthora cinnamomi, which has been found at Scotts Peak and Melaleuca. This disease particularly threatens the Buttongrass moorlands that cover a significant part of the park and provide both habitat and feeding grounds for a number of endemic species including birds and amphibians. To assist in preventing the spread of this disease, the Tasmanian Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water and Environment are working closely with Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife to ensure that no soil with the disease enters the park. This involves measures such as hygiene checks of people's boots and clothing, and planes and boats that enter the park. This is done at established stations along the Port Davey Track and the South Coast Track.

Human impacts
In addition to the environmental threats posed by climate change and root rot fungus, there are several other impacts, posed mainly by humans, that threatened the park. Of most concern from humans are the impacts posed from fishing, tourism and introduced pests such as feral cats and starlings into in the park.

Fishing
Due to the uniqueness of the freshwater and estuarine systems within the park, and wanting to prevent the introduction of pests such as the brown trout, fishing has been banned from the known estuarine and freshwater systems of the park such as Bathurst Harbour, Port Davey and Melaleuca.

Eco-tourism
To coincide with the threat of fire posed by increased lightning strikes from storms through climate change, the park has alongside all other national parks in Tasmania, introduced through the World Heritage Wilderness Plan 1999 the banning of camp fires and declaring the parks Fuel Stove Only Areas, to minimise the impact caused through walkers using the tracks and other eco-tourist ventures that utilise the park, particularly during the warmer months of October through to March.

Introduced species
Alongside the threat posed by humans through fishing, walking and other eco-tourist ventures, particularly in terms of threats from fire and litter, these ventures also posed a threat in terms of introduced species or pests such as feral cats, brown trout and starlings into the park which threaten particularly the herbivore mammals, birds, fish and reptiles that are endemic to the park.

Tasmania Parks and Wildlife Services have attempted to address this threat through the Tasmania World Heritage Wilderness Plan, the Strategic Regional Plan for the root rot fungus and Port-Davey and Melaleuca Area Plan. The management strategies that have been enforced include inter alia, development and enforcement of a weed management plan, undertake regular checks of boats and aircraft entering the park, cleaning stations located at several spots along the walking tracks of Port Davey and South Coast and regular inspections and reviews of the houses and walker's huts within the park.

It is with these strategies that will hopefully ensure that the unique biodiversity of this World Heritage National Park is maintained.

Access and recreation
There are two ways to access the park by land: the Gordon River Road to the hydroelectricity township of Strathgordon and the Cockle Creek route via the Huon Highway. The southern and western reaches of the park are far removed from any vehicular access. The only access is by foot, boat, or light aircraft. Two main walking tracks cross the park: the Port Davey Track, south from Lake Pedder and the South Coast Track, east from Cockle Creek, the other west from Cockle Creek along Tasmania's south-coast to Melaleuca. The walks are generally for more experienced walkers, taking approximately ten to fourteen days to complete the full route. Alternatively, a flight to or from Melaleuca may be arranged to split the walk, or for tourist access for day trips. Several more difficult walks also exist, encompassing the Eastern and Western Arthur Ranges, Precipitous Bluff, Mount Anne the South West Cape, and Federation Peak. Many of these latter routes are not recommended for inexperienced walkers, or for people traveling alone. Sea access to the region is best gained via Port Davey and Bathurst Harbour.

title: Southwest National Park


text:
Strzelecki National Park

Strzelecki National Park is a national park on Flinders Island, Tasmania (Australia), 307 km north of Hobart. The park is home to abundant wildlife including more than one hundred bird species, wombats, and potoroos. It is named after Sir Paul Edmund Strzelecki, a famous Polish explorer and geologist who made a lot of his explorations on the Australian continent and was proclaimed in 1967.

Popular activities in the park
Strzelecki National Park contains the highest point on Flinders Island, Mount Strzelecki, after which it is named; the park contains multiple hiking trails and scenic peaks. The park also contains scenic beaches that are popular spots for swimming, snorkeling, fishing, and kayaking. Additionally, there is a diverse spread of biomes in the park ranging from Tasmanian Blue Gum Forests to coastal heatlands, and the sprawling mountains. It was the also first peak climbed in the Three Peaks Race.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Strzelecki National Park


text:
Tasman National Park

The Tasman National Park is a national park in eastern Tasmania, Australia, approximately 56 km east of Hobart. The 107.5 km2 park is situated on part of both the Forestier and Tasman peninsulas and encompasses all of Tasman Island.

History
Whaling activity took place in the 1830s and 1840s.

The park was proclaimed under the Regional Forest Agreement on 30 April 1999. The Tasman Island Lighthouse (constructed in 1906) is located on Tasman Island, which is part of the park. This lighthouse and weather station has been unmanned since 1977.

Geography
At 300 m above sea level, the columnar dolerite cliffs at Cape Pillar and Tasman Island are among the highest in the world. Dolerite is a rare rock type on mainland Australia. Land formations accessible by road include the Blowhole (a hole at the inland end of a sea cave), Devils Kitchen (a rock hole) and Waterfall Bay. Dolerite formations which are more easily viewed from the ocean include Cathedral Rock, Totem Pole, Candlestick, and Tasmans Arch. The park includes The Lanterns, three small islands.

Flora
Three species of Euphrasia (a semi-parasitic, herbaceous flowering plant commonly known as eyebright) are found only in Tasman National Park. The rare Cape Pillar Sheoak is a shrub or small tree found only in the Tasman National Park where it is restricted to the Cape Pillar area of the Tasman Peninsula and to Tasman Island.

Giant Kelp is locally extinct in Eaglehawk Neck since 2016 due to climate change, with Tasmania's remaining giant kelp forests predicted to disappear in the next five to ten years.

Fauna
Australian fur seals use the coastline for breeding and resting, and little penguins (sometimes referred to as "blue penguins" or "fairy penguins") nest along the foreshore.

The park forms part of the South-east Tasmania Important Bird Area, identified as such by BirdLife International because of its importance in the conservation of a range of woodland birds, especially the endangered swift parrot and forty-spotted pardalote.

Three Capes track
The Three Capes Track is a one-way 46 km 3 night track in Tasman National Park opened on December 25, 2015. It starts at Port Arthur Historic Sites and ends at Fortescue Bay with a bus taking the walkers back to Port Arthur Historic Sites. The walkers arrive at the jetty at Port Arthur Historic Sites, are taken by boat around the bay of Port Arthur then left at Denmans Cove. From there they trek 46 km to Fortescue Bay over 3 nights, stopping each night at a hut that provides water, gas top cookers, toilets and sleeping. Each hut has one Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife Ranger as well as a roving ranger who goes between huts. The huts can accommodate 48 people per night and as of December 2016 has had 8000 participants. The 4 day walk goes to Cape Pillar, Cape Hauy, Mount Fortescue, Arthurs Peak, Ellarwey Valley and ends at Fortescue Bay. The total cost was 25 million AUD including 18000 helicopter flights to the site. Before the new track was created there was already an older and not maintained track that was first created in 1990, with the Three Capes Track first being attempted to be made in the mid to late 1960s' by members of the Hobart Walkers Club.

title: Tasman National Park


text:
Walls of Jerusalem National Park

The Walls of Jerusalem National Park is a national park located in the Central Highlands region of Tasmania, Australia. The park is located approximately 144 km northwest of Hobart, east of the Cradle Mountain-Lake St Clair National Park, and west of the Central Plateau Conservation Area. It is south of Mole Creek, Tasmania, and Rowallan Lake. The national park forms part of the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area.

The locality of Walls of Jerusalem is in the local government areas of Central Highlands (36%) and Meander Valley (64%) in Tasmania. The locality is about 244 km north-west of the town of Hamilton.

Etymology and history
The park takes its name from the geological features of the park which are thought to resemble the walls of the city of Jerusalem. As a result, many places and features within the park also have Biblical references for names, such as Herods Gate, Lake Salome, Solomons Jewels, Damascus Gate, the Pool of Bethesda.

Features
The most prominent feature of the park is King Davids Peak with an elevation of 1509 m above sea level.

Much of the walking track consists of raised boards, from Wild Dog Creek through to Dixon's Kingdom, with the purpose of protecting the fragile alpine vegetation. Walking tracks elsewhere in the park consist of rock, rocky earth, grassland and marsh.

In film
Some scenes for the second episode of the BBC documentary series Walking with Dinosaurs were filmed here.

Geography
The locality has an area of 517.7 km2, all of which is occupied by the national park.

Road infrastructure
The C171 route (Mersey Forest Road) runs south just outside the north-western boundary (in the locality of Mersey Forest) to the Walls of Jerusalem car park, where it ends.

title: Walls of Jerusalem National Park


text:
Talk:Cockney/Archive 1

Raising of /ɑ/?
I'm basing this more of my own observations than outside sources, but there seems to be a tendency to raise /ɑ/ to something like /ɔ/ in Cockney and Southern British English in general, eg. "can't" [kɔːnʔ]. The change is consistent with the tendency of the rest of the southerm shift (rising-then-diphtongisation, cf. the Great Vowel Shift), but I'm not sure if it's standard or documented. If somebody has any sources on this or other non-diphtongising changes of long vowels, that'd be nice. --87.205.39.199 (talk) 23:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm assuming you're American. I think what you're hearing is the backness of the vowel.  Everywhere I look, BATH is transcribed as  for London and Southern English English.  In America, LOT/PALM (as long as the "l" in palm isn't pronounced) is often more centralized, so it is pronounced  or .  So if you're American, a pure  might sound different to you. Thegryseone (talk) 07:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Alright, ignore what I wrote earlier. I found some sources on this change now.  I know you wrote that a long time ago, but I'm writing this just in case you come back or if someone else happens to be curious.  William Matthews in his 1938 work Cockney Past and Present and J. Franklyn in his 1953 work The Cockney.  A Survey of London Life and Language say that in Cockney,  is raised to .  It's possible that this is what has caused  to become more raised and rounded toward, according to Gudrun Parsons in his work from From "RP" to "Estuary English". Here's the PDF version of that work.  If this is true, then it's similar to the low back chain shift in the New York City Dialect.  I have heard pronunciations like that from Cockneys and Southeasterners as well and I wondered about this too, so thanks for bringing it up. Thegryseone (talk) 05:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Double Negatives
How about using "We don't need no education"(Pink Floyd) instead of I didn't see nothing. Greatestprateek 15:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Bow Bells definition
who first came up with the bow bells definition? with what authority? how valid is it, if for most people cockney = the east of London in general? I wasn't born in East London, but I grew up there from the age of 3, and though I don't live there now (not through choice), I am still, and always will be, through and through, a cockney. Most people who live in the east end weren't born there, and won't stay there, but they are still Londoners. I 'll always feel like I'm a Londoner, because everything that East London is, shaped me into who I am. Where you are born is irrelevant. Where you grow up shapes your personality, views, tolerance, expectations, etc. Someone who is born in Bow and then grows up in Scotland is not a cockney. A true cockney is someone who grows up in inner-city or East London, regardless of where they were born.

It's not Bow, it's St Mary-le-Bow Cheapside. Lion King 16:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Although it's often omitted in discussions of the Bow bells/Cockney connection, it was the bell of St. Mary-le-Bow on Cheapside that was used to sound the curfew for London, first ordained by the Common Council in 1469 (I took this from St. Mary-le-Bow's official website, but it's well documented). This curfew, sounded at 9:00 p.m., was the signal to close all shops, presumably within the confines of the City, since this was the jurisdiction of the Court of Common Council. This seems to be the earliest connection between the audible reach of Bow bells and the classification of a Londoner; and it's probably not too great a stretch to imagine this developing idiomatically as a definition of Londoners (perjoratively becoming known as Cockneys), first as people living and working within the sound of the bells, then being born in the area. Alan B. 19:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

British Classism
The distinctions of class of import to too many Brits was never better expressed than when an Oxford twit of my acquaintance, in noting the several bags of women's clothing kept for sale by a Cockney roommate of mine, snobbishly says "He is such a perfect example of what he is."
 * Wat are you on about?

Offence from the US
The US always seem to laugh at English people in television. Usualy by getting American Actors to 'pretend to be British'. These always involve the English somehow ONLY being able to speak Cockney!

Dubious list
There are a lot of very dubious Cockneys in this list. Angela Lansbury, George Carey, Dudley Moore, Maggie Smith, Terence Stamp, Windsor Davis?. Windsor Davies is Welsh FFS! Ok looking at his biography it says he was born in Canning Town. I think we need to be clearer about what's going on here. I can only assume that those listed above were added because they were supposedly born within the sound of Bow Bells. But are we talking about that as a criteria for listing or what? Within what radius of Bow Bells does is count? Dudley Moore was born in Dagenham, a bit far to hear Bow Bells methinks. Mintguy (T)

 * This BBC page ("Cockneys & Cabbies") says that the East End is "bordered to the west by the City of London, to the south by the river Thames, to the east by the A102 motorway and the river Lea and to the north by Victoria Park and Hackney road. It includes Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Wapping, Bethnal ... Green, Limehouse, Stepney, Mile End, the Isle of Dogs, Poplar and ... Bow", and that "nowadays, people from all of the East End claim the title [of 'Cockney']". Perhaps we could use this as our definition, although I doubt that there is any definition that will please everybody. --Heron 12:58, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * P.S. I would say that the Bow Bells definition is quaint but obsolete, given that London has changed a lot since the bells were installed (1392 or earlier ). At that time the City of London was a distinct settlement, but now it's just part of a huge conurbation. --Heron 13:03, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Right, the River Lea and the A102 sound like as reasonable a place to put the "border" as anywhere else. That means that Canning Town and Plaistow are out though. Perhaps we need to define that certain people are Cockneys by this definition and that certain other people, are well-known for having a cockney accent even if they arn't technically Cockneys. The inimitable Arthur Mullard was born in Islington, and surely we must find room for him. Mintguy (T)

 * How about a subdivided list, with criteria such as "core area", "East End area", "wider area" and "Jamie Oliver area". ;-) Or would this be too much hassle to maintain? --Heron 13:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well. As I see it there are two things to deal with. I think listing who was/or wasn't born in the "Cockney geographcal area" (whatever that is) is less important for this page than listing those who have a Cockney accent. After all we have pages for the East End of London, which is perhaps better suited to listing listing non-Cockney speaking Cockneys etc. if we need to. Mintguy (T)

 * True. We need two sections: (1) Cockney culture (neighbourhoods, pearly kings and stuff like that) and (2) Cockney dialect.  Some people belong in one or the other, some in both. --Heron 14:30, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Ideal suggestion. Mintguy (T)

 * I amended several Wikipedia biographies of Canning Towners, and people born in Plaistow, Stratford, Forest Gate etc to note that they were born in ESSEX (i.e east of the River Lea), as these areas have only been Greater London since 1965, but they were all almost instantly reverted by another user back to 'born in London'! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.194.86.1 (talk • contribs).

Noted Doris Thatcher from Hot Fuzz was listed as a Cockney. Not sure why, as she has a strong West Country accent like the majority of the characters in the film. Edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.173.19.1 (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Homerton hospital
I think this is within reach of the Bow Bells. Rich Farmbrough 17:45, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

However its more north east london rather than the "east end"

Anonymous comment
Removed this from the article:
 * geory carey, vera lynn and dizzee rascal are not cockeneys as the areas thay are from are not within the sound of bow bells. Michael caine who is from walworth south london is however as it is. get it right.

I'm hoping someone might check it for accuracy. --Heron 19:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Michael Caine was born in Rotherhithe (so south London). I don't think south London counts as cockney - so I'm going to remove Del Boy from the list as well as his character was set in Peckham. Secretlondon 12:22, 6 September

2005 (UTC)

 * Of course Rotherhithe counts! Just check it's proximity to Cheapside. Lion King

 * I am becoming SICK TO DEATH of this EAST END COCKNEY NONSENSE! For a start, Cheapside is East CENTRAL 2 - not EAST- THERE ARE COCKNEYS SOUTH OF THE RIVER TOO!!!Lion King 20:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

SOUTH London? So wherebouts in South London do south london cockneys come from..?

Southwark, Rotherhithe, Elephant & Castle, Bermondsey, Surrey Docks etc. Lion King

Well, I was born in rotherhithe (i now live in camden), and i'm definitely NOT a cockney. I dont walk around usin all that rhyming slang nonsense, and i pronounce my words properly.
 * Being a Cockney has nothing to do with the way one speaks, it's about where one is born and Rotherhithe is well within the sound of the hour bell of St Mary-le-Bow. Best wishes, Lion King 14:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)P.S. I was born in Guy's Hospital, I don't live there. Lion King

 * Come on! So someone whose parents live in Sheffield and who just happens to be born in an ambulance speeding past St. Mary le Bow is a Cockney? The Bow Bells definition is about a hundred years out of date. Cockney = a Londoner who speaks in a certain way and belongs to a particular community if you ask me. 125.239.233.196 20:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Oh I'll come on alright!!! Is this article about Cockneys or Cockney Accents? Did Derek Nimmo have to sound like George Harrison to be a Scouser? And Angela Lansbury can't possibly a Cockney, She don't talk nuffink like wot Barbara Windsor do, do she.? Cor lor lorks lummey Sid! Lion King 17:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * You came on alright, but a bit hastily and wide of the mark :-) I've never heard it suggested that being Cockney is purely a matter of location in modern times, just as it isn't purely a matter of accent: 125.239.221.167 22:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

 * What? Being Cockney isn't a matter of location in modern times? Do you have to be born in Newcastle now, in modern times? :) Lion King 02:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

You cant be a cockney being born in south london,i was born in henriques street E1 in 1947 thats slap bang in the middle of the "east end"

South London
Where is "South" London? There is "south" "EAST" London, and "south" "WEST" London, please tell me where SOUTH London is and what is it's Postcode. Lion King 15:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Um...South London —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.137.233 (talk)
 * Um...South London 1? South London 5? or South London 32? There is only South East and South West London. Lion King 02:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * ?Eh? You're referring to the postcodes not geography or culture. Jooler 07:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC) - The South London postcode used to exist as the article says " NE and S - There are no London postal districts labelled "NE" or "S". These were in the initial division but were later removed as they were considered unnecessary. NE became part of the E sector in 1866 and S was divided between the SE and SW sectors in 1868. These two codes have since been applied to Newcastle Upon Tyne and Sheffield respectively" Jooler 07:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's quite correct. "South" London (as a designated area) ceased to exist 138yrs ago. There is only South east and South west London. Lion King 13:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Rubbish. The geography and culture of the different parts of London and the use of the terms "North" and "South London" etc.. has nothing to do with the postcode system. The postcodes are not aligned with the boundaries of the London boroughs and SW1, SW3, SW5, SW6, SW7 and SW10 are all north of the River. The postcodes were created for the convenience of the post office only. [User:Jooler|Jooler]] 23:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Rubbish? North and South? gor blimey guv, you don't arf know the old lingo eh? Lion King 19:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean. Jooler 11:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? I would have thought it was perfectly obvious.

Right Lion King, so you know there is only South East and South West, and that "South London" technically speaking no longer exists, and yet you ask us where it is and what its post code is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.178.44 (talk)

 * Oi gevald! Lion King 18:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And an Oi gevald to you too, son. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.223.218 (talk)

 * Alaichem sholom. Lion King 01:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeh, duh. Why are wannabe cockneys like you always so annoying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.116.85 (talk)

I have always believed that nobody from south of the river is a Cockney. Nicander 11:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes this is a very common misconception. If you look at a map of London, you'll see that Southwark is much closer to Cheapside than Mile End or Stepney. Also Bermondsey and Rotherhithe are almost opposite Wapping, just on different sides of the river.

 * In places like Wanstead where the bells cannot possisibly be heard, they are of course all Cockneys Because (yes you've got it) IT'S GOT AN EAST LONDON POSTCODE, just like Walford E20! Not all Cockneys come from East London. Be lucky, Lion King 20:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

eeek
"soft 'R'; replacement of 'R' with 'W' as in 'Mewwy Cwistmas'"
 * Sorry this is pure Mockney as per 1940s films (or Jonathan Ross and others who can't pronounce their Rs). Ever heard Bob Hoskins or Michael Caine say 'Mewwy Cwistmas'? I think not. Jooler 21:46, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually this is in a lot of fictional cockney from Charles Dickens right up to EastEnders - but its use is not just fictional, it is a common (but optional) feature of cockney English.DavidFarmbrough 1:50 (BST) 6 September 2005

I think some R's are replaced with W's, but not in the way that Merry Christmas becomes Mewwy Cwistmas. Its just the way Londoners pronounce certain words. For instance - 'sort' becomes 'sawt', 'door' becomes 'daw', 'short' becomes 'shawt' etc.

The article talks about dropping leading H's; what about adding them at the start of words when they shouldn't be there. Is that a recognised characteristic? -- Ralph Corderoy 01:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I know that this section has not been amended for more than a year but I thought that I should write it here anyway. I have inserted a sentence about this, which was referenced from a Survey of English Dialects worker.  Apparently, the r--->w thing did occur in London and certainly more often than the rest of the country but it was never a universal feature of the Cockney dialect.  Epa101 (talk) 13:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Dick van Dyke
To give him as an example of anything close to a cockney accent it laughable. "Schtep in thyme Maurie Poppins" - I don't think so. MRSC 18:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's already mentioned in this article under "Famous Cockney performances". It was meant to be cockney and it is famous for beign bloody awful. Jooler 18:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Ah yes - he had slipped in there twice. Thanks. MRSC 19:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Negative Conotations
I feel somebody should make a point about the negative associations that the term Cockney can have, especially in my experience in the north of England. It is used to refer negatively to anyone from the South East, why do you feel it necessary to delete this?

 * Because you have not explained it or tried to reach consensus, which is what WP is about. I've lived up north too, and never heard this usage, so it is definitely questionable. Even if not, it also should not be at the start of the piece, which should be the main meaning. A footnote would suffice. The North is quite a large area, whereabouts did you hear this usage? Tarquin Binary 13:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It mainly comes from people slagging off the stereotypes of southernerss that are portrayed in Eastenders I suppose, perhaps you are right in not having it at the start of the article. The term cockney is a negative word originating from meaning a pampered townsperson as in "cock egg", like a sheltered hens egg, "ney" being the old english plural for eggs I think. I'm from Sheffield and I have to say I frequently come across the term being used in a negative sense towards a southern person, although I'm no way myself trying endorse any regional prejudices I found the Northern Stereotype page regarding the North of England incredibly negative, outdated and typecast and I feel that other peoples opinions of "Cockneys" and other South Easterners should be voiced, negative or otherwise.

 * OK, it's more to do with you not explaining the edit, I guess. I've no problem, as a 'Cockney', with adding that usage, but I would put it as a footnote, maybe, and explain that it is definitely heard in Sheffield - maybe others can chime in, if they have heard it in their locale. I've never heard it in Liverpool, and I actually queried my friends from York over the weekend, who did not recognise the usage at all.

 * Re: the Northern stereotype page. Will go and look. I certainly would not endorse this sort of thing at all with respect to any region, so maybe that page should be refactored. Also, just personally, I don't think of the 'North' at all - at the minimum I'd break it into Northeast and Northwest - specific counties and cities better... Tarquin Binary 17:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I was one of those, although not the first, who reverted the 'derogatorily' comment, so let me explain why. I'm prepared to believe that some northerners use the word Cockney as a blanket term of abuse for southerners. However, just about every national and subnational group considers itself superior to its neighbours and enjoys mocking them, so this means that probably every ethnonym in the world is used as an insult by somebody, somewhere. That said, I wouldn't object if the northern usage were noted further down the article. It was really the undue prominence given to the comment by putting it right at the top that seemed unfair to me. --Heron 20:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

As a former southerner now living up north (see my profile), most people in the north have about as much knowledge of what a cockney is, as a Londoner would about Geordies. However, that does not mean to say they are right, as generally anyone with half a degree in common knowledge knows at least that Cockneys has something to do with London; and it tends to be really thick, bitter, belligerent idiots from inbred shitholes such as Barnsley and the like that seem to bark on about how anyone south of Coventry is a cockney, generally in the same sentence as how everyone down south is so miserable. Okay, change the record fellas. Wikipedia is a record of FACT not PREJUDICE/IGNORANCE. Apologies for shouting. -- superbfc (31 January 2006, 00:31 UTC)

 * That's funny. Down here in the East End, crass stereotyping (you don't run into it much, but still...) would be that Northerners are miserable whining gits and that we are all chirpy cheery Cockneys what can triumph through all adversity, innit? Not that I would endorse such pig-ignorant views, of course - I concur with your analysis (except a good friend of mine is from Barnsley, but then she moved away years ago...). Anyway, I think you're right, this entry should be delimited by common sense and it'd be nice if it stuck to the main meaning. Tarquin Binary 01:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments and responses, I pleased people feel so passionate about the subject, it's been very insightful into regional stereotypes. I suppose it's human nature to asume that we're all better off where we are and that all outsiders are inferior ((?) although that sounds a bit harsh), I guess generalisation is human nature and broad sweeping prejudices just help people allienate each other further although londoners must understand, although Lonodn is the capital there is an incredible amount of London bias in all forms of British media (although this is obviously to be expected beign the centre of media), for example the ethnocentric NME, which patronises bands for sounding "like something from the home counties and not what we expect from the north" and in football new reports for example southern teams are much more likely to take priority in order over other teams, especially London clubs. Also to the majority of people outdside London all that east end west end issue is absolutely insiginificant

Old Fashioned Classification
This Bow Bells stuff is a very ancient way to define cockneys. Nowadays most people see a cockney as someone from London. -anon
 * Perhaps, but most Londoners do not see themselves as Cockney. Jooler 17:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright & Watcha!
Does anyone know where the Boundary lies for using the greeting "Alright" or "Watcha" ?? I tend to think that North/North East London generally use "Watcha" or "Watcha cock" and South West London stick with "Alright" (alwhite) IsarSteve 21:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Pretty much all of West London (both North West and South West) use alright. I'v never heard anyone say watcha in my entire life.
 * well I´m sure Watcha was used in Tottenham & Edmonton... but that was in the last century!!!   IsarSteve 20:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

WAS watcha ever actually used? Sounds like something you'd hear on only fools and horses...NWC
 * Of course. My Grandad (who is 96) still says "watcha" Lion King 17:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But does anyone still use it? I'd assume its very outdated as you dont hear it these days. Well, among modern young people. NWC 18:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * By and large it tends to be older people that use it - your'e right, it's not something that younger people would use or really even know or hear, except maybe in old films or from my Grandad- it makes them laugh, but not in a nasty way :) Cheers, Lion King 18:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * What a shame it´s dying (died) out.. but that´s the way things are.. language moves on..I´m in my late 40´s and watcha was used in my youth by both young and old.. IsarSteve 20:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright (awite) sounds alot better though, in general. Watcha sounds mockney. NWC 21:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Strange though..if you look through Lion Kings talk page you´ll notice he also uses wotcha (nearly the same word) as well.. so it´s not only his 96 year old grandad.. IsarSteve 21:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes but Lion King IS mockney...NWC 21:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Oi, watch it mate, I was born a goal kick away from Cheapside, and if I was a mockney, I'd be pratting on about personal attacks. Instead I'll see you outside The Duke Of Albany tomorrow at 3pm eh? Wotcha! Lion King 21:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * ´ere what a lot of BOFs we are..sitting at home on a Saturday nite! IsarSteve 22:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Listen son, i aint takin no sh*t from some mockney fella like yourself. P*ss off and rabbit about your old china's or the apples and pairs or whatever it is you mockneys do! NWC 22:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL Lion King 22:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Don´t get aht yer pram! IsarSteve 22:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

OK cockneys bruvvas (i dont consider myself a cockney, but apparantly i technically am...), all personal insults and fisticuffs outside south london pubs aside, does anyone actually use the term "me old china" anymore?NWC 22:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * probably only Lion Kings 96 year old grandad! lol "me old dutch" also died out IsarSteve 22:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As it happens that one isn't part of grand pa pa's terminology - your'e thinking of Kathleen Harrison! Lion King 22:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think its pretty cool that some of the rhyming slang terms still exists today, even if some died out. PS - B*llocks, i keep forgettin to sign me posts!!!NWC 22:37, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * seriously now.. it only needs people to use it (rhyming slang), in the way it was meant, to keep it alive. The trouble is, it was a working class thing... and I read somewhere, most people now think they are middle class, what you call Mockney IsarSteve 22:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Spot on ! use the old slang and mockneys haven't got a clue what your'e saying - bring it full circle.Lion King 23:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)P.S. got work to do now have fun. Be lucky, Lion King 23:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm lost...are you saying that most people consider themselves to be middle class..or that most non-cockneys/londoners think that cockneys are middle class? :\ NWC 22:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * sorry that wasn´t very clear.. I think Rhyming slang has lost its "core-users" ... and is therefore dying out. Most people(& londoners) these days consider themselves middle class therefore are by definition Mockneys. IsarSteve 23:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

But a mockney is a non-working class londoner who affects the accent of one. So doesnt that just make them cockneys who wish they werent...if that makes sense. NWC 23:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * you´ve cornered me now, and you´re right about the working class wishing they weren´t. I personally don´t have a problem in saying that I come from a working class background but many do.. this has also lead, in my opinion to less use of Rhyming slang. My mother used the slang Jam-jar very often, always meant when the vehicle concerned was expensive. People don´t use it anymore because it´s not "cool" or doesn´t fit in with their aspirations..  IsarSteve 23:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

See, i know exactly where your coming from on this. I too dont have a problem with saying im working class - in fact, im proud of it. I think another factor which has lead to the gradual phasing out of rhyming slang is the amount of foreign culture affecting modern young people, if you know what i mean. For example, i live in london, and other than terms like 'rabbit' meaning talk, and 'two bob bits' meaning the shits, rhyming slang isnt used at all. The London slang page has alot of good examples of foreign words which are used today by young people as slang. I'm rabbiting, i'll stop. :) NWC 23:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * rabbit on - see User Talk:NWC IsarSteve 23:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

In [Harry Potter] Tonks says "Wotcher." She's pretty much the coolest character in the series. Also, I hear "alright" as a greeting sometimes, and I'm not close to being Cockney. (I was born in the northern suburbs of Melbourne, as was my dad. His dad is from the Fens.) RoseWill 23:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyvio
The "Cockney Culture" section may be a copyright violation. I posit this as the source of the material: . See the section titled "The old place is changing...".

En Anglais?
Why is it written "fɔːʔi ˈfæːzənʔ ˈfɹʌʃɪz ˈfluːˌəʊvə ˈfɔːnʔənˌiːf". No one can read that. Should be written "Fawty fahsan' frushes flew ova fawt'n eaf", or something like that.
 * Yes, I agree. I bet most people cannot understand the weird alphabet that is used for pronunciation on here.—Johnbull 16:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's called International Phonetic Alphabet and is used all over Wikipedia. The pronunciation spelling you propose is not accurate enough since people with different accents would pronounce it differently, while the IPA transcription represents sounds themselves. --logixoul 20:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Inhabitants or Natives
I think it should say "natives" of London rather than "inhabitants". Since it can be argued that someone who was born in and grew up in London and then moved out is still a cockney - whereas somebody who was born and grew up outside of London and then moved into it can't.

Chas and Dave
I've removed

 * Chas and Dave (Chas Hodges and Dave Peacock; Cockney pop rock band, born Edmonton and Ponders End)

Chas and Dave are Londoners but if they're from Edmonton and Ponders End then they can't be considered Cockneys. Much too far north. BTLizard 09:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Cockneys are white.
Why do people find it so hard to accept that cockneys are white english or white british born within the sound of bow bells. I gurantee if you ask any bengali or black resident in the East end they would say they themselves are not cockneys. Cockneys are white british.

No, theyre not. Many black residents of the East End consider themselves cockneys. Deeds-123

Hahahaha a cockney is a white working class inhabitant of any were in the boundries of the East End. Black haha most residents in the east end are either white or bangladeshi. Cockneys are English. simple as that.

 * Huh? And all English people are white? Where have you been living for the last fifty years? Not London at any rate 125.239.233.196 20:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all English people are white, the English are a white race, although of course one cannot say that, only believe it and know it, (the Irish, Welsh and Scots can of course say it though), because some left wing looney will start srceaming on about racism. The white English working class have been airbrushed from history, because free speech has been stifled and not one mainsteam politian has had the guts to speak up for fear of being branded "racist." "Must one point out, that from ancient times the decline in courage has been considered to be the beginning of the end." Alexander Solzhenitsyn. 91.106.156.171 (talk) 00:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The Left like to pretend that England (apparently alone of all the world's places with a long history of habitation) has no indigenous people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.6.47 (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Geographic & part critique
Hi, I moved the note on Chatham docks, that was under the section on the dialect to the section on 'area'; although I'd argue that later title is contested.

A number of points for consideration:
 * You can either treat 'cockney' as a dialect, or people born in a specific area - not both (At least, not both at the same time ... someone doesn't suddenly produce a glottal stop, and decide they can no longer live in Kent). A dialect has an extent of common usuage, not a sudden dropping off at small geo boundaries, like the Lee, or Thames (indeed, people for a long way around the geo core, will often speak a mixture of received english and dialect).
 * I had read that the vast majority of 'city residents' in the middle ages spoke a form of cockney dialect, it's likely to be the vernacular of Chaucer - although he could switch between a number of languages with fluency. So, that extent changes over time.
 * If cockney is a dialect, then the 'white criteria', some are arguing for, is plainly ridiculous. Yes, as a group white working class people are more likely to use the cockney dialect, but equally a young black kid normally speaking patois amongst their peers will drop into cockney amongst a group predominantly speaking cockney dialect. Same goes for a lot of Asians brought up in East London. It's called use of appropriate register, and we all do it to aid communication and identity.
 * rhyming slang, double-speak, or market talk is just that, it's associated with the markets, and is an adoption into the cockney dialect.
 * similarly, the variety of foreign words adopted by cockney shows the effect of immigration, and shows that it is a vibrant dialect that continues to change and adapt to the modern world.
 * cockney is gradually being replaced throughout London by 'estuary english'. This appears to fall somewhere between cockney and received pronunciation; and also shows the extraordinary influence of Australian soaps, being typified by the rising sentence. (The sentence rises at the end, in 'english' this indicates a question).

I think there's a lot of good stuff within the current article, but our confusion about the term, and to what it is applied, or whether that's a who, or a where, even a when .. is confusing to the reader.

I think, given time, I could come up with some references, but most linguists seem to like to concentrate on the 'great vowel shift', and less contested dialects!

I hope that helps Kbthompson 09:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Bow Bells Earshot
Formerly it included the City, Bethnal Green, Stepney, Shoreditch, Whitechapel, Finsbury, and Hackney -- Quite a bit missing here, worth adding? Deeds-123 14:43, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Audio sample?
Is there an audio sample for the (authentic) dialect?

Koala man 00:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What about this? ;) --Johnbull 02:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Here's an excellent one. Here's another shorter one. Thegryseone (talk) 07:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

More Bow Bells
I removed this:
 * "Naturally, modern Cockneys scoff at that limitation, saying that, "The qualification is, that you are born within the area that the bells would be audible in, if they were ringing. They did not have to be ringing at the time (of birth), but if you would have been able to hear them if they were, then you qualify for the honour (of calling yourself a Cockney)."

since it does not sound like anything that ANYONE would ever say.Lfh 00:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's funny. Admittedly, I'm not a modern Cockney, but when I was reading the article a few seconds ago, it was precisely the thing that I thought I would say. :) --91.148.159.4 22:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Paradoxically, I do seem to remember reading that argument as a quote somewhere, but if it is, you are right, it should be attributed. The paragraph encapsulates a more difficult problem with the article. That is that cockney is both a dialect and a group of people. The group of people is problematic as there was both a historic definition, and a modern self-definition. The later is often conflated with coming from the 'East End', or being 'white working class' - themselves disputed terms. The way to improve the article is to disentangle these aspects, as they're only causing confusion. Kbthompson 09:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The quote may well be indicative. I don't know much about the East End but the Bow Bells story has always struck me as the kind of fanciful whimsy that may appeal to some professor in Oxford writing a book, but doesn't actually represent the views of East-Enders. But we'd need a lot more evidence to actually assert this. Lfh 12:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Captain Jack Sparrow?
I've no idea where Johnny Depp intended to base his accent, but it certainly wasn't the East End of London. There's more Auzzie in there than My'ell End. It shouldn't be in that list without some kind of DVD-esque qualification. Matt 11:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd say there was both. There's also a heck of a lot of Cockney in Aus / NZ accents. 125.239.207.41 04:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think they're more East Anglian in their influences. Epa101 (talk) 10:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to argue that Captain Jack would be considered cockney. Either way, Johnny Depp's Sweeny Todd would qualify as a cockney performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.0.149 (talk) 09:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Ian Wright
Ian Wright, a guide from the TV Series Globe Trekker, may not technically be a Cockney (from the East End of London within an earshot of the Bow Bells), but he certainly has many of the features in his speech. It's rare to hear anyone as Cockney sounding as him these days. Maybe he should be added to the list. 208.104.45.20 04:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Like
It seems to my ears (I could be wrong) that the word "like" becomes monophthongal sometimes: [lɑːk]. I have heard this mainly in Jamie Oliver's speech. He is, of course, a mockney, so he could be doing it all wrong anyway. 208.104.45.20 06:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I got a book on Cockney out of the library, which I shall use to update this article when I get a chance. It said that "like" would have the k dropped and become "li'".  It's a bit like the word "Cockney" itself being said as "Coc'ney". Epa101 (talk) 10:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. But my American ears still hear a strange vowel quality in that word. I sometimes hear it pronounced as /laʔ/ in rapid, unconscious speech. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I could quite believe that. If we imagine a full "like" having a diphthong laik, then rapid speech often sees the second vowel in a diphthong get dropped, which would leave la?. American ears can be useful for noticing things that we Brits have got too used to :) Epa101 (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I actually figured out the answer to this question. It's part of the new dialect in London which is overtaking Cockney. Some linguists call it Multicultural London English. Thegryseone (talk) 21:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Similarity to Australian English
Another feature I have observed is the vowel in words like "is". It tends to sound more like "eez" in the speech of some people. This is a feature of Australian English. No coincidence there. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Are there any variations on the "coat" diphthong?
Can the diphthong in the word "coat" be realized as [ʌʊ] rather than [æʉ]? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't found anything that says anything other than . — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  04:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

READ THIS ARTICLE IN A COCKNEY ACCENT
Let's put that wikipedia feature to use. Somebody with a cockney accent read the thing and upload it to wikipedia. assuming cockneys have access to a computer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.80.5 (talk) 04:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Duh, Cockneys have access to a computer. Don't believe what you hear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.195.179.86 (talk) 20:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? Do believe what you hear, both myself and Alan Sugar have access to a computer, that makes two of us at the very least. 'Arry Boy (talk) 00:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Common misconception
The page is being vandalised by foreigners who do not understand the facts. My insert about how the term "Cockney" refers to the people of East London is being deleted as soon as I put it up. For the record people of Mayfair, Belgravia, Chelsea, Wandsworth, Putney, Clapham, Tooting, Bromley, Watford and many other places in London do not see themselves as Cockneys. They are not cockneys, they dont want to be cockneys and they take offence to the reference when used and see it as a term of abuse. Not every one of Asian appearence is from Pakistan, yet people who want to offend people of Asian appearence call them "Pakis". People need to realise that it is equally offensive to call people from all over London "Cockneys". From now on people who edit this from the main page will be reported as Wiki vandals.

As mentioned elsewhere there is a slight negative conotation attached to the term cockney and people from more fashionable places in London take offence to the association. Rightly or wrongly Cockneys are often thought to be ruffians, robbers, thieves and less educated that the norm. East end villans like the Cray brothers have added to this and led to more and more people from the rest of London detaching themselves from the Cockney term. The fact that ignorant northerns often refer to all Londoners as Cockneys is not something that means that all Londoners ARE Cockneys. Rememeber these are the same northerns who will refer to London as "SMOG". Smog was cleaned up in the early 50's and today it is offensive to Londoners to call London "the smog". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.65.213 (talk) 10:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Please don't call edits you disagree with "vandalism"? Vandalism requires bad faith, which is something you are asked to assume against.  The main problem with your edit is that it makes a number of uncited claims.  The wording is a little sketchy, but we can work with that after we get the citations issues fixed.  I'll break it down for you:

 * Northerners from the North-East of England often wrongly think that all Londoners can be called Cockneys.
 * do they? cite it
 * This is entirely false. As witnessed by millions on national TV Newcastle United fans once sung "We hate Cockneys" as a jibe to Chelsea fans at a football match played in Newcastle. The Chelsea fans (mainly from West and South London), sick of the then success of West Ham United (the Cockney team of London) surprised the Northerners by joining in, such was and is Chelsea's contempt for West Ham Utd and their fans.
 * this is an overdetailed account of a non-notable sports event. Moreover, it's brought up as evidence that not all Londoners are Cockneys but illustrates very little to people who don't know football or English geography (i.e. "foreigners" like myself)
 * Since then most Northeners now know that the term Cockney does not mean anyone from London
 * this contradicts the first statement of the paragraph. Do they think it or don't they?  If they used to think that and now don't, can you prove that this one song changed so many people's opinions?]
 * this is in no way an adequate reference. If it's a website, provide the link.  Chances are, all the site will tell is that the song was sung.  That it proves or indicates that not all Londoners are Cockneys is an original research synthesis, though if you can address all my other concerns, I can admit that it's not much of a logical leap to make.
 * Also, "the millions who say this live" is not an adequate reference. I hope I've made myself a bit clearer now.  I'll admit I'm no expert in Cockney, though I do have a few sources under my sleeve, so I'm not really saying that you're wrong in your claims, just that we need better citations.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  11:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, "the millions who say this live" is not an adequate reference. I hope I've made myself a bit clearer now.  I'll admit I'm no expert in Cockney, though I do have a few sources under my sleeve, so I'm not really saying that you're wrong in your claims, just that we need better citations.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  11:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Math
I recently changed 'math' to 'maths' on the grounds that 'math' was non-British, only to find it reverted. What meaning is being assumed for the word 'math'? I have never heard this word used in British English. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As there seems to be some dispute about 'math' why not use a different word to illustrate the point being made, perhaps 'north', 'youth', or 'path'? If no one objects I will change the example to another word.Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How is math non-British? — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  21:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I presume that you are referring to the short form for 'mathematics'. In British English this is 'maths'. To use 'math' as an example of Cockney speech is absurd as the word is not used in the UK. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, on second look I see that my dictionary says it's a US term. I also didn't notice that "maths" is used earlier in the section.  My apologies.  Since /θ/ becomes /f/ in all environments, any word with /θ/ would do.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  05:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditton
Some Londoners pronounce words like "didn't" and "couldn't" as something like ditton and couton (This could be much better expressed using the IPA). Is this considered Cockney?Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Page Reorganisation
To avoid pointless arguments on the meaning of the word Cockney, might it be an idea to reorganise the page into several sections, such as:

Cockney - People, Cockney - General London Accent, Cockney - 'True' Cockney Accent. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits
In response to this edit:
 * 1) The source for the quote does not use the spelling indicated.  We must either use the spelling from the source or use another source that indicates the original spelling.  I recommend the former so that it doesn't look like there's a need for copyediting.  If we do the latter, we might have to use [sic]
 * 2) "question tags" are used in most if not all varieties of English, so this is not a "grammatical" feature.  Even if Cockneys use it more than other speakers, it's still not grammatical any more than teenagers using "like" more often is a grammatical difference from the speech of adults.
 * 3) What is David Crystal (1995)? Part of the Harvard citation template is that the inline citations link to a full citation at the bottom but we don't have that. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  22:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Ok, in retrospect, what you're saying is correct regarding the spelling. Its just, online, that sentence as writtin by Moryson originally is rather difficult (impossible) to find from a 'reputable' source. So, my apologies for that -- right you are.
 * 1) It is very much a grammatical feature. If you're going to use 'like' and a comparison between teenagers and adults as an example, perhaps we should rule out the points which detail features such as 'aint', double negatives, and T-glottalisation?
 * 2) What is David Crystal (1995)? Are you trying to indicate that you didn't realise David Crystal was a "who" and that 1995 was the year. OH. 'see what ya did there. Very clever of you sir. And so terribly funny. Got it from here to answer your question, and though that page itself is about Estuary, that part is listed as a feature of "grammar" taken from cockney. Invisible Monster (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 22:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ain't, double negatives, and T-glottalization are features of Cockney that aren't features of all or most English dialects. I'm assuming that question tags are standard English.  They are, aren't they?
 * Looking at the link you provide I'm feeling a bit confused. Is there a semantic difference between when a Cockney says "I said I would, didn't I" and when I say "I said I would, didn't I?"?  The example doesn't have a question mark and I don't know if that's intentional.  It also mentions "innit" which I would say is a more grammatical feature because it seems the source is arguing that the contraction of isn't it is becoming grammaticalized.  I'm also concerned that this, as you admit, is about Estuary English and not Cockney (it does not, as you say, specify that question tags are a feature inherited from Cockney); it's very sketchy to make a claim about Cockney and source a website talking about Estuary English, which then cites a different book.  The least we can do is look at Cambridge Encyclopaedia of the English Language ourselves and see what it says. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  23:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right -- and I may have fucked up monumentally. I took 'Other Cockney tags' to mean that the tags in question (the confrontational one mentioned before that sentence) were being stated as features of Cockney English. Make sense? Not really, I know. I explained that poorly. I still maintain that we use confrontational question tags more than most other accent/dialect groups, but if I can't source it then I can't source it. Invisible Monster (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be interesting if you could find a source that made that claim. Even if it's not a grammatical feature, I'd say it's noteworthy and could go somewhere.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  08:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Bad–lad split
Does Cockney have a bad-lad split? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

England
I've noticed that the way English people pronounce, well, England, is different from the way Americans pronounce it. How would the English pronunciation be written phonetically? 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Cool for Cats
Someone should add Chris Difford Cool for Cats (song). It's even got rhyming slang and a video. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo8rge (talk • contribs) 22:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Cockney /aɪ/ versus Australian /aɪ/
Is the Cockney and Southeastern English /aɪ/ phonetically the same as the Australian /aɪ/? Thegryseone (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, the traditional Cockney accent has vowel sounds almost identical to Australian. See this old recording from Hackney and you'll notice that it sounds very similar to Australian http://sounds.bl.uk/View.aspx?item=021M-C0908X0021XX-0100V0.xml  What separates them now are the consonants: the Cockney th-fronting and l-vocalisation.  Epa101 (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Lists too long
Is it just me or do the lists of Cockney Characters, Cockney People, and Cockney Performances seem a little over-large. In addition the list of Cockney Performances seems to contain a number of Cockney characters already in the characters list. This duplication seems unnecessary 86.130.229.242 (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just you. :)Thegryseone (talk) 23:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem, perhaps, is that the rest of the article is comparatively short. It could certainly do with some beefing up in some areas.  — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]  06:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Rounding of Onset of and Raising of Onset of
In the older "true Cockney" accents, which is what this article seems to be about, not only is backed, but the onset is also rounded to, according to Wells (1982b: 308, 310). Wells calls a "Popular London" variant. He defines "Popular London" as the accent of suburban working-class speakers. So according to Wells, the "true Cockney" variant is. This realization starts to encroach on 's space, so according to Wells the onset of is raised to  in Cockney. Thegryseone (talk) 19:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

A Few Things I Wanted to Say
I don't understand why everyone thinks Cockney can only be spoken on the East End. It seems to be much more of a working or lower class accent found all over London (maybe not "all over", but certainly not just the East End). If you listen to this sound clip for example, you'll hear a man from Peckham. Peckham is not in the East End, instead it is in South London, and yet he is more Cockney than anyone I have heard in my life. It says in this article as well that most characters on the sitcom Only Fools and Horses are Cockneys, and yet that takes place where else but in Peckham. This article also says that Snatch contains Cockney accents and yet Jason Statham who plays one of the main characters in that film and seems to speak with one of those accents, is actually from Sydenham, in south-east London.

What are some differences between the so-called "South London" (south of the Thames) accent and "North London" accent? I just find it annoying that locals claim to be able hear differences between the two and yet they never can describe those differences when asked. It makes one doubt whether such differences even exist. It's kind of like how New Yorkers claim to be able to distinguish between Bronx accents and Brooklyn accents, Irish New York accents and Italian New York accents, etc., but when asked what those differences are, they can't give you an answer. It's all b.s. if you ask me. Thegryseone (talk) 05:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I think that South London and the East End did have distinct accents at one point in history. The term "Cockney" was definitely limited to the East End originally.  I don't live in London, but I expect that the East End and South London accents have merged with time so that they are now one and the same.  The accent diversity of Britain is much less than before, and you can't locate accents as precisely anymore.  It's a similar thing up here between Lancashire and Yorkshire.  The historic rivalry means that people insist that the two have different accents, but younger people from the two counties sound the same now.  Lancs and Yorks definitely had different accents at one point in history, but will probably not for much longer.  Epa101 (talk) 11:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. The interesting thing is that even with the disappearance of some of the most local varieties, England still has much more dialect diversity than the United States. The U.S. simply hasn't been around for long enough to have that many dialects. What I read about North of England varieties is that even though there is some dialect levelling going on there, the "levelled" form will not be like a South East dialect, but rather a so-called "Pan-Northern" dialect. Thus, Northerners will still sound distinctly Northern when all's said and done. That identity must be important to them. Thegryseone (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, that is right. You can always tell if someone is from the north of England.  Some books on accents say that RP is spoken by some people in every part of England, but I don't think that's true.  The Oxford Dictionary has always limited RP to southern England, and I think there was a reason for that.  As regards America, I've heard that there is much less diversity, but I'm interested in the new Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE).  Epa101 (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I think RP can be spoken by people from every part of England, although the majority of people who speak it might be from the South. It's just that Northerners and north Midlanders who speak RP would have in BATH (or they might use  and  interchangeably). It's still considered RP though; it's just a somewhat diluted form of the traditional standard. According to Upton, Kretzschmar and Konopka (2001: xii), "the accent [RP] is not to be thought of as an exclusively southern-British phenomenon". On a different note, I heard about DARE too, and while it looks kind of interesting, I usually take works on lexical variation with a grain of salt. As an American, I rarely ever hear a lot of the words they mention in books like that. In some cases, they are only used by old people in rural areas. Also a person from a particular region might use both soda and pop or pill bug and roly-poly at different times. Your lexicon is something that's much easier to change than your accent. You can easily incorporate words from different regions into your vocabulary, possibly without realizing their region of origin. That's just my two cents worth. Thegryseone (talk) 04:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I think the DARE project was partly designed to record these words before they die out; as you say, many of them are now only used by the older generation. It was a similar thing with our Survey of English Dialects.  As regards RP, there are some people who insist that it must have the broad  in BATH; for example, John Wells (who was born in Lancashire ironically enough) marks any other form as non-RP in his Longman Dictionary.  The  in STRUT is also never heard in the northern third of the country (apart from people who have migrated from the south).  I think it's telling that all of the early sources on RP, such as Daniel Jones and the old dictionaries, confined it to the south of England.  It's only the newer analysts who claim that it can be heard anywhere.  It is true that there are many people up here who have moved from the south and kept an RP accent, but then there are also thousands of people in Bradford who speak with Pakistani accents.  I've not done a survey, but if you were to do one about accents in the north of England, I bet that the number of people who speak RP would be smaller than the number of people who speak with an Asian accent or a Polish accent.  Again, that's just my two cents' worth (an interesting American phrase).  Epa101 (talk) 10:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I find it hilarious that you called "my two cents worth" an American phrase. I actually was thinking it was an English phrase when I wrote it; that's part of the reason I wrote it. I rarely use that phrase actually. It sounds a bit foreign to me. That shows you what I know. I guess I could stand to learn a bit more about that. Anyway, nice talking to you. Thegryseone (talk) 10:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Original research?
The passage Th-fronting, L-vocalisation and T-glottalization can now be found in every county of England (with L-vocalisation being largely absent from Northern England) has four references but all four are sound clips from the Milennium Memory Bank. Four recordings are not enough to cover every county of England, but this would still not be acceptable even if 100 recordings were used. This is original research. This part should be reworded to get rid of the "every county of England" and new references should be found. I think that a reference could be found for t-glottalisation, which varies across the country but does occur everywhere. L-vocalisation is definitely not used in the north and I don't think that it is used in the West Country either, so I think that should be scrapped. Not sure what to say about th-fronting. Epa101 (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I can't find anything on Th-fronting in Northern England. I can't find anything on L-vocalisation either.  However, I do have a reference for the use of a glottal stop for  in the North of England.  In A Handbook of Varieties of English it reads (on p. 128), "In the North of England, it [a glottal stop for ] is found in every urban center except Liverpool, and even here, Newbrook (1999: 97) notes glottal pronunciation of pre-consonantal and final  in West Wirral." Thegryseone (talk) 05:20, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Cockney Area
There's a major rewrite needed - the Bow bell story is repeated in the Cockney Area section and it's all a bit confused. Anybody fancy having a go? pablo hablo. 21:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Fuck Off
I was born in Barking thr accent the same. The way you describing the way we speak saying how we pronouce words making me fucking laugh. I said out loud some of the way you unrealistic. I dont understand it. I don't live down there anymore but I notice my great uncle swears a lot saying fucking ath the end of each sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.57.177 (talk • contribs)

my poemz called were frendzzz
yow guys hope yo lke it brav u better ok lol just kindag ok.....

ok this how it goes ok guyz

were friends, u fight i fight... u cry i cry... u jump of a brige i am gunna miss ur dumb ass!!!!!!!1

made by hawa osman in year 7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.64.58 (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

asian
i couldnt help but notice alot of the areas covered by the cockney accent are asian neighbourhoods. so does this mean there is some asian influence in the cockney accent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adf2432423423 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

No, the asians came after the cockney accent, in asian areas the accent isnt spoken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.149.251 (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Wigga's killed cockney
Wigga's killed cockney off. Something happened during the mid 80s when cockney started to fade for the first time. Higher levels of immigration and more traditional londoners moving out of the city. I remeber reading a report that stated how black londoners stopped speaking cockney around 1985, porbably due to a bit of separtism due to the riots, so black kids started speaking in a sort of jamaican accent. The White kids started copying them and cockney sank. The influx of middle class into traditional cockney areas didnt help either."

title: Talk:Cockney/Archive 1


text:
Video game publisher

A video game publisher is a company that publishes video games that have been developed either internally by the publisher or externally by a video game developer.

They often finance the development, sometimes by paying a video game developer (the publisher calls this external development) and sometimes by paying an internal staff of developers called a studio. The large video game publishers also distribute the games they publish, while some smaller publishers instead hire distribution companies (or larger video game publishers) to distribute the games they publish. Other functions usually performed by the publisher include deciding on and paying for any licenses that are used by the game; paying for localization; layout, printing, and possibly the writing of the user manual; and the creation of graphic design elements such as the box design. Some large publishers with vertical structure also own publishing subsidiaries (labels).

Large publishers also attempt to boost efficiency across all internal and external development teams by providing services such as sound design and code packages for commonly needed functionality. Because the publisher often finances development, they usually try to manage development risk along with a staff of producers or project managers to monitor the developer's progress, critique ongoing development, and assist as necessary. Most video games created by an external video game developer are paid for with periodic advances on royalties. These advances are paid when the developer reaches certain stages of development, called milestones.

Business risks
Video game publishing is associated with high risk:
 * The Christmas selling season accounts for a highly significant portion of industry sales, leading to a concentrated influx of high-quality competition every year in every game category, all in the fourth quarter of the year.
 * Product slippage is common due to the uncertain schedules of software development. Most publishers have suffered a "false launch", in which the development staff assures the company that game development will be completed by a certain date, and a marketing launch is planned around that date, including advertising commitments, and then after all the advertising is paid for, the development staff announces that the game will "slip", and will actually be ready several months later than originally intended.  When the game finally appears, the effects among consumers of the marketing launch—the excitement and "buzz" over the release of the game, fueling consumers' intent to purchase—have dissipated, and lackluster interest leads to weak sales.  An example of this is the PSP version of Spider-Man 3. These problems are compounded if the game is supposed to ship for the Christmas selling season, but actually slips into the subsequent year. Some developers (notably id and Epic) have alleviated this problem by simply saying that a given game will be released "when it's done", only announcing a definite date once the game is released to manufacturing. However, this sometimes can be problematic as well, as seen with Duke Nukem Forever.
 * The industry has become more "hit driven" over the past decade. Consumers buy the game that's best marketed but not necessarily of the highest quality, therefore buying fewer other games in that genre. This has led to much larger game development budgets, as every game publisher tries to ensure that its game is number 1 in its category. It also caused publishers to on occasion force developers to focus on sequels of successful franchises instead of exploring original IP; some publishers such as Activision Blizzard and Electronic Arts have both attracted criticism for acquiring studios with original games and assigning them to support roles in more mainstream franchises.
 * Current generation consoles have more advanced graphic capabilities than previous consoles. Taking advantage of those capabilities requires a larger team-size than games on earlier, simpler consoles. In order to compete with the best games on these consoles, there are more characters to animate; all characters must be modeled with a higher level of detail; more textures must be created; the entire art pipeline must be made more complex to allow the creation of normal maps and more complex programming code is required to simulate physics in the game world, and to render everything as precisely and quickly as possible. On this generation of consoles, games commonly require budgets of US$15 million to $20 million. Activision's Spider-Man 3, for example, cost US$35 million to develop, not counting the cost of marketing and sales. Every game financed is, then, a large gamble, and pressure to succeed is high.

 * Contrasting with the big budget titles increased expense of "front-line" console games is the casual game market, in which smaller, simpler games are published for PCs and as downloadable console games. Also, Nintendo's Wii console, though debuting in the same generation as the PlayStation 3 and the Xbox 360, requires a smaller development budget, as innovation on the Wii is centered around the use of the Wii Remote and not around the graphics pipeline.

 * When publishing for game consoles, game publishers take on the burden of a great deal of inventory risk. All significant console manufacturers since Nintendo with its NES (1985) have monopolized the manufacture of every game made for their console and have required all publishers to pay a royalty for every game so manufactured.  This royalty must be paid at the time of manufacturing, as opposed to royalty payments in almost all other industries, where royalties are paid upon actual sales of the product—and, importantly, are payable for games that did not sell to a consumer. So, if a game publisher orders one million copies of its game, but half of them do not sell, the publisher has already paid the full console manufacturer royalty on one million copies of the game and has to absorb that cost.

Types of game publishers
AAA game publishers produce and create games that are high budget and groundbreaking. They are advanced in technology and forward the boundaries of technology and creativity in the video game world. AAA game publishers often produce popular and blockbuster games. These publishers have the financial resource and means to fund large game development projects. These publishers implement and fund marketing and distribution to guarantee reach and exposure for their games. With their funds to market they are able to advertise and reach a wider consumer pool and have access to distribute to a big network. Although they have creative constraints within game development and marketing, they often focus and follow market trends. They have a higher demand to attain commercial success. Examples of AAA video game publishers are Electronic Arts(EA), Ubisoft, and Activision.

Indie game publishers are companies that work with independent developers. Their focus is on developing games that promotes creativity and originality. Developers have creative control over their games. These publishers implement intimate collaborations between the publishers and the developers. Often stand out in the video game market due to the more unique genres. Indie game publishers have restrict marketing budgets and have small audience reach and visibility. Examples of Indie video game publishers are Devolver Digital, Annapurna Interactive and Raw Fury.

Mobile game publishers produce and specialize in video games on smartphones and tablet devices. They take advantage of the widespread appeal and rise of mobile gaming. These publishers enhance games for touch based interfaces and devices. They are proficient in designing monetization tactics for mobile platforms. Mobile game publishers have a comprehensive understanding of the mobile gaming market. They have proficiency in strategies for engagement and user acquisition for mobile sites. For mobile gaming there is access through app stores for distribution channels. There are obstacles with monetization due to lack of in-app purchase and free-to-play(F2P) models. Examples of Mobile game publishers are Supercell, King, and Zynga.

Investor interest
Numerous video game publishers are traded publicly on stock markets. As a group, they have had mixed performance. At present, Electronic Arts is the only third-party publisher present in the S&P 500 diversified list of large U.S. corporations; in April 2010, it entered the Fortune 500 for the first time.

Hype over video game publisher stocks has been breathless at two points:
 * In the early 1990s, the introduction of CD-ROM computer drives caused hype about a multimedia revolution that would bring interactive entertainment to the masses. Several Hollywood movie studios formed "interactive" divisions to profit in this allegedly booming new media.  Most of these divisions later folded after expensively producing several games that were heavy in "full-motion video" content, but light in the quality of gameplay.
 * In the United States, revenue from the sales of video and computer games exceeded revenue from film box-office receipts for the first time in the dot-com days of the late 1990s, when technology companies in general were surrounded by hype. The video game publishers did not, however, experience the same level of rise in stock prices that many dot-com companies saw.  This was probably because video game publishing was seen as a more mature industry whose prospects were fairly well understood, as opposed to the typical exciting dot-com business model with unknown but possibly sky-high prospects.  While many technology stocks were eventually destroyed in the dot-com crash in the early 2000s, the stock prices of the video game publishers recovered as a group; several of the larger publishers such as EA and Take-Two Interactive achieved historical highs in the mid-2000s.

title: Video game publisher