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Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 5

People can we cite, please
This was just added by another editor and I removed it because it had no citation:
 * "The issues of whether pedophilia is, or is not pathological, treatable, a sound predictor of social malocclusion or dangerous behaviour have made the individual and overall medical dilemma over whether it should be treated, a controversial and disputed question."

Not saying it's not true, but in fraught areas like this we want to be extra good about citing, I think. Herostratus 01:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The section simply aimed to point out that some people think that there is nothing to treat. We know this, so why cite it? If this article is to be judged properly neutral, words of warning such as mine (aiming not to primarily depict pedophilia as a condition requiring treatment) need to be placed before the main arguments, not after. Edit: 'Subjectivity' section added. --Jim Burton 01:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Non Medical Therapies
I have a problem with this whole section, it seems entirely pointless to have an entire section which is made up two very short paragraph's, neither of which has a citation. I will say that it seems like this section could be of use if it gave some references and had a bit more information but as it is it seems to add little or nothing.--Colin 8 23:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Misdefinition
The section on 'Pederasty', under 'Related terms' implies that homosexuality is a practise three times, and implies the same of pedophilia, once. Why was my edit reverted to the faulty language?

We must all know that 'homosexual male pedophilia' by it's very definition can only be an attraction. No? Someone post a good reason, because in 48 hours, it will go back. --Jim Burton 01:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know why you think it implies that.

 * We don't necessarily all agree, no. Words have various shades of meaning. But you do have a point. Also, what does "or similar intergenerational relationships as adults" mean, and how does it relate to pederasty. Herostratus 01:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Pederasty is the practise of a relationship between two differently aged males, usually referring to a relationship involving an adolescent boy. By saying that Pederasty has been used to refer to Homosexuality three times and Homosexual Pedophilia once, the edit revert clearly does one of two things: 1. Misdefines Pederasty as an attraction 2. Implies that the common use of the word throughout history refers to attraction (obviously false).

 * The primary definition is man - boy sodomy (Oxford), but as we know, it encompasses a lot more. But to define it, or it's common use as Homosexuality or Pedophilia is equivalent to labelling Vili Fualaau as a partner in 'Age structured heterosexuality'. You see. What your revert does is genitalises homosexuality, and such a thing should not be allowed to leak through in an encyclopedia. --Jim Burton 01:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Herostratus - Pederasty has historically been used to refer to homosexual age - gap relationships which may include a pedagogic function. The 'adolescent boy' or younger partner can be an adult, or over the regional age of consent, since adolescence spans beyond adulthood. The presence of an age gap, or the pedagogical nurturing of a younger partner is independent of the local distinction between the adolescent boy and adult male. --Jim Burton 02:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The main point of the pederasty paragraph is that the word has historically been used in many different ways. In fact it leaves one out -- in Italian pederasty just means anal sex, gender and age (and, er, "pedagogy") aside. Dan B † Dan  D  04:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced the text with more accurate language, again. Note that it is not a revert. My reasoning is zero opposition to the points that I laid out. --Jim Burton 05:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I see your points. Let me see if I have this right: "Pederasty" is strictly an activity; "pedophilia" is strictly an attraction (or paraphilia or mental state or whatever); "homosexuality" may be either. If that's what you're saying, I tend to agree, and edits to that effect may be warranted, in general. Given that, we have to walk a fine line between scholarly language and common usage. But, granted, with the emphasis on scholarly or medical correctness. Re pederasty, you might have a useful conversation with User:Haiduc, who has done much research to the point that pederasty has, all through human history, been a pillar of homosexuality and homosexual culture (naturally, the GLBT folks consider him anathema, but that's a political question).

 * And, although pederasty may in one sense only refer to activity, on the other hand, consider: if I knew an adult male who frequently and publicly professed an avid desire for romantic and sexual relations with 15-year-old boys, would I be so very off-base to consider that person a pederast, notwithstanding his virginity in this area?

 * Moving along... as far as I know, a relationship between (say) a 25-year-old and 55-year-old male is not pederasty, by any definition or usage I have seen. This I would consider a new and improper definition, absent cites. User:Haiduc might have such cites, if anyone does. (Cites for ancient usage would be suspect, in my view; as a rule, material relating to long-ago cultures is probably better in separate articles covering those cultures, I think.) The reference to a "pedogogic function" simiarly I am somewhat dubious of. Certainly this isn't an intended meaning of any current usage I know of except by pederasts and their apologists; and again, what might or might not have been the practices of (let us say) the 17th-century Trobriand Islanders and what might or might not be the terms applied to these practices is surely of scholarly interest -- but probably not for this article.

 * Adolescence spans beyond adulthood -- maybe, by a quite small amount, and depending on the individual, the definition of adulthood, and the person making the definition. You are conflating, I think, the developmental term "adolescence" with the legal term adult; if one is using the developmental term in both cases, by definition one cannot be in both states, unless once is holding that one shades into the other (in which case, the use of the term pederasty becomes quite slippery). There is (as far as I know) no legal meaning to the term "adolescent", at least not one that commonly holds. Herostratus 15:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I would say - Adolescence > 21 (some say 25) and Adulthood > 18. Therefore, we have room for adults who are adolescent boys. The use of pederasty is vague, often substituting for homosexual sex itself, and therefore any kind of intergenerational homosexual sex could easily be described as such.

 * Pedagogic Function as you say has been observed in accounts - I must add that these are numerous among man - boy couples. Sandfortis a good starting point on this. --Jim Burton 05:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Er, again: you are conflating a developmental and a legal definition. Apples and oranges. People much over 20 have usually entered early-stage adult development and are no longer adolescents, although it depends on the individual. Your link is to IPCE, which is an advocacy group. Generally, links to advocacy groups may go in the Exernal links section but may not be used a citations for statements of fact (or alleged fact) in the body of an article, unless the statement is about the positions etc. of the advocacy group itself. Herostratus 05:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

added paragraph: "Subjectivity"

 * The new paragraph is unsourced POV in itself, but it also has nothing to do with your new section title, "Subjectivity." Dan B † Dan  D  01:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, you need to explain why this section is POV, and what needs to be sourced about a section that simply denotes that there is a subjective difference of opinion over a matter that will primarily be taken for granted (that pedophilia is a subject for treatment - until 'criticisms of treatment'). I maintain that we should strive to explain how one's subjective opinion influences a secondary concern, who's mere acknowledgement before criticism would otherwise make the article POV. Note how the Homosexuality article denotes the POV of behaviour modification advocates before going into the description:

 * Some therapists, institutions, and groups contend they are able to assist homosexuals to overcome their homosexual tendencies. Most of these are conservative Christian organizations which interpret the Bible as holding homosexuality to be unnatural or sinful, and which consider homosexuality to be an undesired orientation

 * And all that after much explanation of positive attitudes on the orientation. Edit: recommended citation for this section. Gieles sees treating the orientation as a complete last resort. Thoughts please. --Jim Burton 02:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the section as it was unreferenced and making a rather contentious claim. The reference above is not enough to support a large claim about what "most experts" believe. shotwell 02:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 'Most experts?' No, the whole thing is about showing that there are some people like Gieles who believe that this orientation should not be treated. We know beyond doubt that most psychologists would advocate treatment of pedophilic sex offenders, if it were proven to be effective. --Jim Burton 05:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the paragraph has been removed, but I'll respond that the leap from "disagreement" to "subjective difference of opinion" is a pretty huge one--in many disagreements, one party is simply mistaken. Also, it's been said many times on this page that overview paragraphs are to reflect academic consensus, not to present fringe ideas as if they were one equal side in a hotly debated controversy. Dan B † Dan  D  03:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Where exactly was I trying to present a fringe idea as if it was equally prominent? The whole problem with the treatment section is that it goes straight into discussing people's disagreement over how pedophilia should be treated or whether treatment is possible. This is intrinsically POV! Since we have devoted a very large article to the pedophile activism movement, and the subject that we are discussing is a sexual orientation of debatable pathology, it would only be fair to present the fringe opinion in it's denouncement of what is the will of others to eliminate what they see as the major facet of one's humanity. --Jim Burton 03:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Pedophilia Defintion
Why is it that Wikipedia refuses to point out out the un-informedness of someone refering to someone who likes someone under the age of consent as a "pedophile"? Just because a lot of people use it wrongly does not mean you can't point out its the wrong definition. THE definition of pedophilia is pre-pubescent individuals, if you are going to say people are using the term "pedophile" for people having sex with adolescents and not point out they are mistaken you might as well erase the Ephebephila page. This is not a matter of opinion, its a matter of the fact of the definition of pedophilia. Refusing to point out that someone is factually wrong when refering to being attracted to post-pubescents as pedophiles IS opinion-based.

AgentScully 06:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

 * You're treating a particular point of view within psychiatry as if it were objective fact. Ephebophilia is a fairly recent neologism and not universally accepted -- unlike pedophilia, it's not in DSM-IV. And practically speaking the meanings of the words overlap, so treating them as two separate categories is just confusing. Dan B † Dan  D  07:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The medical definition of pedophilia specifies that the child must be prepubescent. And the crossover with ephebophilia that Dan ^ refers to could be just as much a crossover with normative preferential attraction to full adults. Therefore, treating ephebophilia and attraction to adults as separate should also be confusing! In reality, we have a continuum of philia along the age spectrum, as well as the apparent gender spectrum.

 * However, the article points out that the alternative use of the word is colloquial. I would still suggest adding that this casual use is in conflict with the accepted dictionary definition, too, though. --Jim Burton 03:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * This is an encyclopedia. It is not a dictionary nor is it a medical manual. Terminology which is useful for research may be referenced or included as is appropriate for the encyclopedia. What the editors of the Oxford English dictionary have to say is of interest, but not the ending point for the Wikipedia. What the American Psychological Association has to say is of interest, but not the ending point for the Wikipedia. (Incidentally the Amer. Psych. Assoc. does not specify "prepubescent" at all; its criteria is simply "13 or under".) The fact is that there is no single definition of this term that we can nail down, rub our hands together, and consider the job done. See WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch/Terminology and its associated talk page for archives of various discussions around this term. Herostratus 06:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually it does specifiy pre-pubescent. The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its "Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia":[27]

 * Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a pre-pubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

 * I was just saying that there is a medical definition, and the consensus is pre-pubescent and the casual use simply contradicts the medical meaning and that should be noted. AgentScully

 * Ah, I stand corrected, then. I lost my copy in the Spork Wars and was working from memory. Herostratus 03:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The article does say, "In contrast to the generally accepted medical definition". Why is that not good enough? --Gbleem 13:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Good point. I guess the problem I have is it just makes it sound like either one could be the "right" definition or that you could lump both definitions together. AgentScully
 * The intent of the statement was to show that there are two generally used definitions and the words "in contrast" clearly state that they are not lumped together. --Gbleem 14:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

"Known" Paedophile
Is it really appropriate for an encyclopaedia to display pictures of "known" or known paedophiles? He may not be, it may just be some kind of smear campaign. I say delete it. Excalibur2211 11:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course it was rank trollery and has been deleted. Herostratus 13:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Definition is overreaching
"Pedophilia (...) is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to prepubescent or peripubescent children."

A 12 years old boy being attracted mainly to 12 years old girls is a pedophile? We were probably all pedophiles by this definition, at some point.

See this news story [denverpost.com] where a boy & girl were declared both sex offender and victim. Should we not explicitly include that the perpetrator has to be an adult? - 192.129.3.116

 * The clinical defintion in the article already says that the person must be at least 16 years of age. I agree that story is ridiculous. AgentScully

The inappropriateness of 'Paraphilia' and 'Sexual Orientation'
Paraphilia - article quote: 'Clinical literature discusses eight major paraphilias individually. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the activity must be the sole means of sexual gratification for a period of six (6) months, and cause "marked distress or interpersonal difficulty" to be considered such'.

Not allowable as definitive of the condition: Many pedophiles claim to experience no resultant distress or interpersonal difficulty in their lives. When they do, they often claim that it is essential to the culture they live in, not their condition (although this is debatably part of what makes a paraphilia). So although pedophilia is a clinically recognised paraphilia, for the individual pedophile, this depends on how it impacts upon it's beholder.

Sexual Orientation

Allowable: As it fits the basic dictionary term, and describes the core feature of the condition. However, sexual elitists will always try to change it back, so don't bother using it. --Jim Burton 09:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * What are you getting at? I am confused. Are you suggesting a change in the article, and if so, what? Herostratus 15:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Jim has changed the first paragraph from "Pedohilia is a paraphilia" to "Pedophilia is a mental state" and he wants to further change it to "Pedophilia is a sexual orientation."

 * I've reverted his edits because I think we should discuss such major definitional changes before making them. It would be nice to get really unambiguous definitions of paraphilia and sexual orientation to be going on with -- sadly those articles don't provide them! I do think using "sexual orientation" would be confusing, since the phrase (a fairly recent neologism, but whose? Wikipedia doesn't say.) is normally used to refer only to the desired sex. Dan B † Dan  D  20:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty shocked that anyone but the person who made the original edit would defend the position that pedophilia can be essentially defined as a paraphilia. But if someone wants to have the debate, lets keep the longstanding edit for now.

 * I object on two bases. Firstly, according to the medical definition of a paraphilia, the pedophilia must cause disturbances to the individual. That pedophilia is a medically listed paraphilia is therefore not to define all of its instances as paraphillic, but simply to point out that they often are (unless some quack out there sees fit to put thoughts into literally every pedophile's head). Secondly, to definitively label pedophilia as a paraphilia is medically centric, however well my previous point stands up. We should be outlining the timeless core features of phenomena, i.e. pedo - child, philia - sexual attraction, not picking and choosing from the specialist opinions of our tiny little postage stamp of time within this phenomenon's existence. Such elaboration is not fit for the first line of an encyclopedia. --Jim Burton 23:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia's definitions are to be derived from present expert consensus, not from a single organization or from "timeless" truth. The APA is only one source, though an important one. Dan B † Dan  D  00:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

You raise some good points, Jim Burton. "Pedophila" is a slippery word to pin down exactly and we've mooted it around quite a bit. I personally like "Paedophilia is the attraction to children which is experienced as being so important that it dominates the person's inner sexual or romantic life" (which is a variation of a definition by a Dutch precursor to IPCE). However, that's just me. While I do agree that we don't have to accept the medical definition as our be-all and end-all, I do think that the medical definition is definitely a good starting place, at the very least. Not least because medicine is, after all, a science.

OK... the medical definition speaks of "distress", and from Paraphilia, I get the definition "sexual arousal in response to sexual objects or situations which may interfere with the capacity for reciprocal affectionate sexual activity", which sure sounds like the position you're going to be in if you require children for your sexual gratification.

I am pretty comfortable with the notion that if one is attracted to children but not greatly bothered by this, then one is almost certainly not really a pedophile. One may be a variety of pansexual - attracted to children but also to other entities. That's a horse of a different color altogether. Pedophilia is not a hobby, it is a soul-searing affliction and this should not be minimized.

I'm confident that morality is not lesser among pedophiles than among the general population. The great majority of pedophiles, being moral persons, understand that they cannot ever satisfy their sexual longing. Of the remainder, a brief cogitation on their likely experience if caught is likely to put a considerable damper on their sexually gratifying activities (or else, their actual experience if and when they are caught will certainly cause distress).

Hence, the number of people who have "...attraction to children which is experienced as being so important that it dominates the person's inner sexual or romantic life" and aren't distressed by this is almost entirely composed of the unique (and probably small) subpopulation who don't desire physical gratification beyond masturbation. I don't mean people who have "settled" for fantasy and masturbation for their sex life, but people who wouldn't want to go beyond that even if it was on offer, which would (I guess) indicate a very poorly developed sexuality, which in turn may be the cause of their attraction to children, hence they are not necessarily normal pedophiles... but I go beyond my depth here.

Now, there is a regular Oort cloud of persons who are not pedophiles but who have an interest in or opinion on subjects related to pedophila. You've got your pansexuals, hypersexuals, and the like, you've got your people who think it's sporty to stand up against the dominant sexual paradigm, you've got your right Libertarians who believe it's the natural right of the strong to prey on the weak, you've got your kids still working out their sexual personae, you've got your people who have just plain lost their moral compass, and on and on. None of this has much of anything to do with actual pedophila, though.

Also, the term "pedosexual" has been proposed to indicate that pedophilia is one of the Grand Divisions (so to speak) of sexual orientation, alongside homosexuality and heterosexuality. Whether this is true or not is beside the point; what is to the point is that this term and this concept have not been accepted generally at this time.

Anyway, this is all just a rather long way of saying that for my part I like it fine the way it is... Herostratus 04:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree we should keep it the way it is. Pedophilia is a medical term. The two major medical organizations that set the definitions for this sort of thing, the AMA and the WHO, have similar definitions and the first paragraph represents those definitions. The term is also used in a colloquial fashion which is mentioned in the second paragraph. The first two sections after the introduction further explain the medical definitions. If you don't like the medical definition then lobby the AMA and the WHO. --Gbleem 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The classification in this very encyclopedia is clear:

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the activity must be the sole means of sexual gratification for a period of six (6) months, and either cause "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" or involve a violation of consent to be diagnosed as a paraphilia

Hence the inclusion of pedophilia in the list of paraphilias simply indicates that it can be a paraphilia, as the etymology of the word does not automatically qualify the criteria for paraphilia.

Also, if I have a doctorate, I am officially a doctor, but I may also be a father and primarily a man. If pedophilia has paraphilia status, it is officially a paraphilia, but it may also be a state of mind or sexual orientation.

But the vote is clearly in, so I may try a different line. --Jim Burton 05:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * To present a worlwide view, and to avoid confusing etymology with the current medical and colloquial definitions, I suggest that this is how we open the article:

 * Pedophilia, paedophilia or pædophilia (see spelling differences) is the mental state of being preferentially or exclusively sexually attracted to prepubescent or peripubescent children. A person who expresses this attraction is called a pedophile.

 * In addition to the above etymology, most medical definitions also class pedophilia as a paraphilia, for example the American Psychiatric Association, in it's DSM.

 * As well as an attraction to children, the term 'pedophile' is also used colloquially to denote significantly older adults who are in any way sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent, as well as those who are sexually active with, or have sexually abused a significantly younger minor.

--Jim Burton 06:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I'm still not following you. How can one have the mental state of being preferentially or exclusively attracted to children and not have this interfere with one's normal enjoyment of one's sexual nature, unless you're David Koresh? Herostratus 03:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

DSM criteria for "paraphilia" diagnosis
I ran across a web page that discusses the criteria for paraphilias, specifically in the context of pedophilia, and how those criteria changed in DSM-IV but were changed back in DSM-IV-TR. It seems relevant to some of what was discussed here recently. The text, from a letter to the American Journal of Psychiatry:

 * In DSM-IV (p. 523), criterion B for all paraphilias was, "The behavior, sexual urges, or fantasies cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." The editors of DSM-IV-TR apparently recognized the unintended and clinically absurd consequence of the change in DSM-IV from DSM-III-R criterion B.

 * According to DSM-IV, the diagnosis of pedophilia cannot be made if the individual acts on pedophilic urges but is not distressed by the urges and is not socially or occupationally impaired. In DSM-III-R, however, acting on the urges alone meets criterion B, as is the case again in DSM-IV-TR for pedophilia and all of the other paraphilias that involve a nonconsenting person.

Here's the link: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/159/7/1249

Dan B † Dan  D  02:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * As a side note, I think that the APA's criteria is, well... crap. I know that we're not here to say that, but the fact remains that using the DSM, you can be a pedophile for simply having sexual relations with a child, but not a pedophile for having an intense sexual preference for children, as long as you are happy with your sexuality. Thus, a child rapist is a pedophile, whilst Lindsay Ashford is probably not. --Jim Burton 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Puberty
it says adolescence is defined by the WHO as 10-19 but is commonly defined as 13-18. I thought puberty didnt end until the early 20's? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AgentScully (talk • contribs) 07:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Ah, puberty or adolescence? They are two different things. Both begin and end at different times for different individuals, all age ranges are approximations used to try to impose some order on a very complicated process. Even the definitions of each is unclear, but I always though of puberty as a physical process that ends when on reaches a certain level of development (some Tanner Stage, not necessarily full and complete adult development) while adolescence is more of a mental/psychological development stage that begins and ends later than puberty... and yes, depending on the individual, adolescence may (or may not) extend in the 20's, I guess... Herostratus 16:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia as an attraction and a condition
The articles on homosexuality and heterosexuality open as follows:

'?sexuality refers to sexual and/or romantic attraction between individuals of the ? sex'

As pedo = child and philia = attraction (in this case sexual), surely pedophilia is the attraction of any human to any human child, be they a pedophile (preferential child lover) or not. As well as being the underlying attraction (not particularly preferential), pedophilia can also be used to describe the condition of being a pedophile.

If this does not hold, what exactly do we call the attraction of a non pedophile to a child? Pedophilic attraction? --Jim Burton 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It's a bit beside the point to argue in this way -- the article contains what we can source to notable authorities, not what you can convince us is logical. Dan B † Dan  D  07:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It would be, if the OED and other dictionaries didn't define pedophilia as a simple sexual attraction towards children. It makes sense, too, since the etymology of the word 'pedophilia' suggests no preference, just as 'heterosexuality' refers to any opposite - sex sexuality. The meanings of pedophilia and heterosexuality are of differing origins, but it would be best to have them put inline. The point is also worth raising because of the issue that I raised at the bottom of my last message: what does an encyclopedia do, when it has no article to describe a very large phenomenon? --Jim Burton 08:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I had to re-read the original question about 5 times! But I think what it comes down to is that half or your question relates to Paedophilia as a sexual diagnosis and half relates to Paedophilia as a criminal offence. By that, I mean that that as far as my understanding goes it is not possible to be a non-Paedophile attracted to a child unless it is in the legal sense and the person has not been convincted. Thus, in the eyes of the law, you are attracted to children but legally not a Paedophile. However scientifically it doesn't matter if you're convicted or not. You are attracted to children ergo you are a Paedophile. You don't get to say Aye or Nay. It's what you are. There is another aspect, mentioned briefly in the article, where there is a physical relationship between an adult and child which is situational and may not be attractional. This makes them legally a Paedophile but not necessarily psychologically a Paedophile. The attraction is key here, although there is debate about that as described in the definition section.

 * The difference does raise a good point, however. The article offers virtually no information about the criminal definition (in various localities) and makes no clear comparison between the two. The subject is brought up, but it's rather scattered. --User:TygerTyger 11:42, 7 January 2007 (GMT)

 * The article doesn't have information about the criminal definition of pedophilia because there is none. You won't find the term "p(a)edophile" in any law or in any conviction. The article you are looking for is Child sexual abuse. Clayboy 12:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Quite true. One would assume from the media that 'pedophilia' is a word in the legal terminology, but thats because of its use in place of rape or unlawful sexual intercourse. Even the CPIU turns out to be a rather feeble pressure group, despite it's name and logo suggesting state origin. --Jim Burton 03:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this a article?
Pedophilia is linked with all manner of unnatural acts. This article makes no effort to scientifically link such acts with homosexuality. Nor does this article link such people with current events. Look at this case. --Margrave1206 17:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You mean this..

 * If you know of citeable sources documenting links between homosexuality and "unnatural acts" involving children, please do improve this article (and Homosexuality) accordingly. If you don't know any, you might come off slightly on the provocative side. Also, the case you refer to has no documented link to pedophilia, at least not yet. And Wikipedia articles are not lists of current events anyway. Clayboy 17:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia articles besides being bias, are list for you information, they are also updated and cover more than you know. Besides this article needs more work, when shall homosexuality and pedophilia be addressed as one in the same?? :--Margrave1206 22:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * As soon as you can cite sources which demonstrate that they are one and the same. Nobdoy is stopping you. Clayboy 02:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I would be very interested in adding some information about the link between pedophilia, ephebophilia and homosexuality. One of the major reasons why so many more pedophiles are bisexual or homosexual is because children are more androgynous, meaning that even superficial, sociocultural differences between the sexes can tip ones sexuality. I believe that this has been supported by clinical evidence, but I will see how the idea goes down before searching for it. --Jim Burton 03:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * No sources are needed for assertions on talk pages, certainly. If you do go looking for support, you'll find plenty among both pedophiles and religious bigots--this is a perspective that NAMBLA and NARTH share. Dan B † Dan  D  04:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Dan - the most common sexual activity recorded between adults and minors is indeed heterosexual - between men and little girls. But the proportion of homosexual activity with minors, homosexual pedophile activists and 'out' pedophiles is dramatically higher. Far from making the right - wing argument that 'pedophilia is intrinsic to homosexuality', the androgyny hypothesis is simply a logical way of explaining how a lot more pedophiles and ephebophiles turn out bi (or gay, in the sense that a lot more bis will identify as gay). In fact, from this hypothesis, it logically follows that hardcore gays are among the least likely to be pedophiles, since they are attracted to a very well defined gender, which prety much excludes kids. --Jim Burton 16:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Do you intend to add this material to the article? Dan B † Dan  D  21:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Maybe the CSA article would be better, as the data involves offenders as opposed to pedophiles per se. For example:

 * Amongst the heterosexuals, the commonest remarks concerning attractive features of the victims, were that the young boys did not have any body hair and that their bodies were soft and smooth. note

 * From the article in which this was quoted: This explains the apparent contradiction of straight men abusing young boys. They really are straight – they’re responding to the feminine qualities of pre-pubescent boys, qualities that gay men didn’t find appealing. After all, gay men are, by definition, attracted to men; the feminine characteristics of young boys were a turn-off to them.

 * Other studies have indicated a lack of sexual differentiation in pedophiles 1, 2. --Jim Burton 21:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Box Turtle Bulletin appears to be a self-published one-man advocacy site, so I don't think it's an appropriate source. His own sources, like the Behaviour Research and Therapy article, may be more reliable, but I'm leery of quoting a good source via a bad one since judging context is difficult. Can you dig up the original?

 * The two Kurt Freund articles seem worth a mention, though (it seems we presently quote only much older articles by him). Dan B † Dan  D  22:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There are only three groups of people on the planet that compare pedophilia to homosexuality with sincerity. Only three groups that believe a different yet extremely common myth that crosses all national borders. Those three groups are as follows...

1. Drunk Rednecks. - They're ignorant and they're hateful. What can you expect? 2. The Hardcore Religious. - Some religious people hate homosexuals so they compare them to anything that will "demonize" them further to believers and non-believers alike. No perspective, no scientific analysis, nothing. 3. Pedophiles Themselves. - Pedophiles will compare themselves to homosexuals in order to accomplish two things, to get the homosexual community "on their side" through this invalid comparison and to try to build residual sympathy based off societies view towards homosexuals.

Those are the three groups. There are no others on this planet that will compare homosexuals to pedophiles outside of these three groups. They are the only three. If someone compares homosexuality to pedophilia, it's usually not hard to figure out which group they belong to. It's one of the most repugnant things someone can do verbally or in print. It is a terrible, noxious offense. But why? Why is it so wrong, and how is it a completely wrong statement to make?

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. It means that one is oriented to a specific same-sex, one's own gender. It means nothing outside of this. You are romantically, physically and sexually attracted to your own gender. Just the flip side of the coin from heterosexuality, the attraction to the opposite gender. Now, as subsections of these orientations, you have what is known as fetishes. A fetish is a specific attraction to a specific sex act or a specific aspect of a person or thing that has nothing to do with their personality or gender. We all know people with fetishes. They range from dangerous to harmless.

Some common examples of fetishes are oh, people who are attracted to feet, or people that get off due to say, urination during sex. These things typically are harmless (yet usually disturbing to the average person) acts between consenting adults. However, some fetishes are quite harmful. Those attracted to having sex with animals, Beastials, are an example of a harmful and quite sick fetish. As well, those individuals who are pedophiles are much the same as Beastials. Two groups of fetishists that are attracted to having power of an "innocent" creature with harmful intentions and results. They're attracted not to personality, but to that specific aspect. To claim a pedophile is akin to a homosexual is to claim that a Beastial is akin to a heterosexual. Or that a necrophile, one who lusts after dead people, is the same as heterosexuality!

To claim, whether you are redneck, religious or a pedophile that pedophilia is an orientation is to claim that every fetish on the planet is an orientation. Suddenly they're no longer "foot fetishists" on the planet... they're Podiasexuals. No more necrophiles... they're Deceasosexuals. Ani-sexuals? Each and every mere fetish would become a full-blown orientation. Feces-sexual, Urine-sexual, Furrysexual, the list would never end. Hell, we'd even have to take the Beastials and subdefine them out due to the specific animal they've sexualized.

Link: http://www.perverted-justice.com/opinions/?article=17 (Original quote)

Non Medical Therapies
As it stands the very short description of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy in this article is grossly inaccurate and describes something very different from the cognitive-behavioral treatment approach. To be scholarly rigorous, there needs to be sufficient support to suggest that the treatment modalities mentioned are commonly used in Tx for pedophillia. --Jdcounselling 06:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion in Category:Crimes
While the STATE of being a pedophile is theoretically not a crime in and of itself, pedophilic acts are widely criminalized, often with severe penalties, and there is international cooperation in putting possessors of pedophilic paraphernalia and child molestors behind bars. Thus, I have left its inclusion in Category:Crimes. — Rickyrab | Talk 01:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No. That is not going to fly. The state of suffering from pedophelia is not just "theoretically" not a crime, it is actually not a crime; we do not have the concept of Thought Crime in the English-speaking world. If we had a Thought Crime category then maybe it could go there. Sheesh. Herostratus 02:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

What are these r's in this sentence?
Boylove(r), Girllove(r) and Childlove(r) are used by people such as pedophile activists, who disagree with various stigmas and medical concepts attached to pedophilia.

In the above sentence, why are there r's in words such as Boylove(r)? --Acepectif 22:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

 * They're used to indicate both the abstract noun and the person who is practising it.--Orthologist 14:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Infantophilia redirection outdated
The infantophilia redirection to paedophilia is outdated since the particular article nepiophilia has been re-created, this time backed up with sources. Please correct. --TlatoSMD 03:44, 17 March 2007 (CEST)

Needs more pictures
I added template.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥  ♥  ♥  Ťįɱé  Ø  07:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Enough already, Kirb ol' pal. No, the pictures are not going in here, they are not going in Child Pornography, and so forth, OK? Sheesh. Herostratus 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just surfed on over to the French Wikipedia, and not only is the pedophilie article not featured, but it's got a couple of please-improve-this-article flags. 69.3.238.216 18:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Then why is this template at the top of this page?-- Ķĩřβȳ  ♥  ♥  ♥  Ťįɱé  Ø  18:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * What are you talking about? The template at the top of the article says "Cet article manque de sources." Are we looking at different wikis?

 * A general note on your push for pictures. WP:GRAPE recommends illustrating an article about grapefruit with a picture of a grapefruit. It does not recommend illustrating an article about grapefruit with a portrait of some random person who may or may not have ever seen a grapefruit in her life. Why not illustrate "pedophilia" with some pictures of pedophiles? 69.3.238.216 18:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah. The discussion page says, "Cet article a été reconnu article de qualité le 24 mars 2005 mais a été contesté et retiré le 12 octobre 2006." Somehow you must be looking at a version from last autumn. 69.3.238.216 18:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Because this article is about pedophilia, not pedophiles. It should have pictures of pedophilia.-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥  ♥  ♥  Ťįɱé  Ø  19:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * In what sense is a picture of a child an illustration of pedophilia? 67.101.40.33 01:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * In the context in which it is being used. MetsFan76 01:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok, so Kirbytime is now requesting pictures relating to Pedophilia, after requesting pictures of Lynnie england having sex with Granner and previously requesting pictures of child porn. He has also denied the holocuast saying that it is "alleged" to have happened. I think all this is trolling behavior. He is simply stiring up mud for pleasure, nothing else. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matt57 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

 * I'm sorry but this is sickening. Why on earth would anyone want to put pictures of pedophilia on here?  Not only is that disgusting, but to even have pictures like that is probably illegal!!! MetsFan76 00:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Well actually it would be impossible to have a picture of pedophilia itself here, since pedophilia is just an idea or a nature. But if you look through the page's history at my futile attempt to add a picture by a French painter I couldn't spell or pronounce the name of to save my life, you will see that it seems to fit well. — $PЯING  rαgђ  00:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I know what pedophilia is and this article does not require a picture. I do not agree that it is an idea or a nature.  What person in their right mind would have an "idea" like that???  And it is in no rational person's "nature" to act on impulses such as those.  Gimme a break. MetsFan76 00:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * That is the whole reason we have neutral point of view. Because I also think "Who in their right mind would kill another person?" but do you read that in the article about murder? — $PЯING  rαgђ  00:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok..so then how is having a picture of pedophilia, or the idea of it or its nature or whatever, maintaining a NPOV?????? Why do you find the need to see it so bad in the article? MetsFan76 00:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Metsfan, it's for the same reason why pederasty has pictures. Are you going to remove all the pictures from that article too?-- Ķĩřβȳ ♥  ♥  ♥  Ťįɱé  Ø  00:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I wish I could. MetsFan76 00:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 Kirbytime, please note that if you make one more request for inappropriate pictures, you may be blocked. --Matt57 12:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Rather invalid criticism of the user, there. The first example you cited was questioning whether pictures should be included (possibly a joke), and the second was discusiong the use of sanitised/legal child pornography in the CP article (a good idea). --Jim Burton 01:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Jim, I don't see anything funny here. Possibly a joke?  No, I don't think so.  And what the hell is legal child pornography????!!!! MetsFan76 13:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Although Wiki should strive to stay legal within as many possible jurisdictions (but primarily its own), I can easily see us using a few nonude child modelling pictures, for example Cute Katia or something from the youth talent galleries, to emphasize the kind of material that could sometimes be seen as softcore CP (or soon be legislated into being so). --Jim Burton 09:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That's ridiculous. I don't see how that is necessary. MetsFan76 11:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * "Could sometimes be seen"? Sounds like weasel words to me. Unless you can demonstrate a clear link between the need for a picture, whether it's a banana or a three-year-old getting gang-raped by gorillas, then I don't see a reason for it having space in an article. Keep in mind Springeragh's point: "it would be impossible to have a picture of pedophilia itself here, since pedophilia is just an idea or a nature". A picture of a child model or a nude child could be seen as anything depending on the point of view of the reader, and I can't think of any merits in showing children engaged in sexual acts. Pictures, if any, should demonstrate the concept: say, a man with his pregnant thirteen-year-old wife. Otherwise, you aren't really adding anything to the article. --CA387 12:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That would be perfect if someone could upload it. No sexual element, perfectly legal (they are married), at least I don't see any problems with it. — $PЯING  rαgђ  16:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Perhaps a mug shot of some convicted paedophile would be appropriate. I dont think anything else would be, SqueakBox 17:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean someone convicted of Child sexual abuse? This article deals with paraphalia.--CA387 18:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Krafft-Ebing
"Adults sexually attracted to children were placed into three categories by Krafft-Ebing" This was recently changed. What did Krafft-Ebing study? --Gbleem 07:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Satyricon
Maybe we should move the block quote to the Satyricon article and simply say that the novel depicts sex between a young girl, an old man and his slave. --Gbleem 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. -Will Beback · † · 22:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What's more : Sarah Ruben seems to have misunderstood the text, translating "filiam speciosissimam" by "very attractive little girl". The age of the puellam isn't given, and nothing leads to think she is "11-12". Pannychis, The "puella satis bella et quae non plus quam septem annos habere videbatur" from the XXVth chapter, who "ne tristis expaverat nuptiarum nomen" would have been more approriate to illustrate her views. Glotz 19:02, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pedophilia/Archive 5


text:
Talk:Hafnium

Untitled
Article changed over to new WikiProject Elements format by maveric149 and Dwmyers. Elementbox converted 10:58, 14 July 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 16:28, 10 July 2005).

Information Sources
Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Hafnium. Additional text was taken directly from, from the Elements database 20001107 (via dict.org), and WordNet (r) 1.7 (via dict.org). Data for the table was obtained from the sources listed on the subject page and WikiProject Elements but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

Jargonium
Search for jargonium redirects to the hafnium article. Yet there is no mention of this supposedly new chemical element found by Henry Clifton Sorby [neither is in the article of him). [][] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E5:1737:DB34:6D08:8060:96A4:65B3 (talk) 10:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Hacker group called Hafnium
I tried to add:

, which was blamed for the 2021 Microsoft Exchange Server data breach.

However, visual editor and old school editing would not format well. Please add. Geraldshields11 (talk) 21:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

 * I got it done whit a different tag. Geraldshields11 (talk) 21:43, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hafnium


text:
Xianbei

The Xianbei were an ancient nomadic people that once resided in the eastern Eurasian steppes in what is today Mongolia, Inner Mongolia, and Northeastern China. The Xianbei were strongly suggested to be a multilingual, multi-ethnic confederation consisting of mainly Proto-Mongols (who spoke either Pre-Proto-Mongolic, or Proto-Mongolic  and Para-Mongolic), and, to a minor degree, Tungusic and Turkic peoples. They originated from the Donghu people who splintered into the Wuhuan and Xianbei when they were defeated by the Xiongnu at the end of the third century BC. Following the split, the Xianbei people did not have a direct contact with the Han dynasty, residing to the north of the Wuhuan. In the first century BC, the Xianbei began to actively engage in the struggle between the Han and Xiongnu, which culminated in the Xianbei replacing the Xiongnu on the Mongolian Plateau in 93 AD.

In the mid-2nd century, the chieftain, Tanshihuai unified the Xianbei and waged war against the Han dynasty. His confederation threatened the Han's northern borders for many years, but quickly disintegrated following his death in 181 AD. After suffering several defeats by the end of the Three Kingdoms period, the Xianbei migrated south and settled in close proximity to Han society and submitted as vassals to the Chinese dynasties. As one of the so-called "Five Barbarians" that settled in northern China, the Xianbei fought as auxiliaries for the Western Jin dynasty during the War of the Eight Princes and the Upheaval of the Five Barbarians before eventually distancing themselves and declaring their autonomy as the Jin was pushed to the south. During the Sixteen Kingdoms period, the Xianbei founded several short-lived states in the north and established themselves on the Central Plains.

The Xianbei were at one point all subjected to the Di-led Former Qin dynasty before it fell apart not long after its defeat in the Battle of Fei River by the Eastern Jin. In the wake of the Former Qin's collapse, the Tuoba formed the Northern Wei dynasty and eventually reunited northern China, ushering China into the Northern and Southern dynasties period. The Northern dynasties, all of which were either led or heavily influenced by the Xianbei, opposed and promoted sinicization at one point or another but trended towards the latter and had merged with the general Chinese population by the Tang dynasty. The Northern Wei also arranged for ethnic Han elites to marry daughters of the Tuoba imperial clan in the 480s. More than fifty percent of Tuoba Xianbei princesses of the Northern Wei were married to southern Han men from the imperial families and aristocrats from southern China of the Southern dynasties who defected and moved north to join the Northern Wei.

Etymology
Paul Pelliot tentatively reconstructs the Later Han Chinese pronunciation of 鮮卑 as */serbi/, from *Särpi, after noting that Chinese scribes used 鮮 to transcribe Middle Persian sēr (lion) and 卑 to transcribe foreign syllable /pi/; for instance, Sanskrit गोपी gopī "milkmaid, cowherdess" became Middle Chinese 瞿卑 (ɡɨo-piᴇ) (> Mand. qúbēi).

According to Schuessler, however, the Later Han Chinese pronunciation of 鮮卑 is /sian pie/, and he does not reconstruct syllables ending in -r for this stage. His reconstruction of the Later Han pronunciation of 室韋 is /śit wui/.

On the one hand, *Särpi may be linked to Mongolic root *ser ~*sir which means "crest, bristle, sticking out, projecting, etc." (cf. Khalkha сэрвэн serven), possibly referring to the Xianbei's horses (semantically analogous with the Turkic ethnonym Yabaqu < Yapağu 'matted hair or wool', later 'a matted-haired animal, i.e. a colt') On the other hand, Book of Later Han and Book of Wei stated that: before becoming an ethnonym, Xianbei had been a toponym, referring to the Great Xianbei mountains (大鮮卑山), which is now identified as the Greater Khingan range.

Shimunek (2018) reconstructs *serbi for Xiānbēi and *širwi for 室韋 Shìwéi < MC *ɕiɪt̚-ɦʉi.

Origin
Warring States period's Chinese literature contains early mentions of Xianbei, as in the poem "The Great Summons" in the anthology Verses of Chu and possibly the chapter "Discourses of Jin 8" in Discourses of the States.

When the Donghu "Eastern Barbarians" were defeated by Modu Chanyu around 208 BC, the Donghu splintered into the Xianbei and Wuhuan. According to the Book of the Later Han, "the language and culture of the Xianbei are the same as the Wuhuan".

The first significant contact the Xianbei had with the Han dynasty was in 41 and 45, when they joined the Wuhuan and Xiongnu in raiding Han territory.

In 49, the governor Ji Tong convinced the Xianbei chieftain Pianhe to turn on the Xiongnu with rewards for each Xiongnu head they collected. In 54, Yuchouben and Mantou of the Xianbei paid tribute to Emperor Guangwu of Han.

In 58, the Xianbei chieftain Pianhe attacked and killed Xinzhiben, a Wuhuan leader causing trouble in Yuyang Commandery.

In 85, the Xianbei secured an alliance with the Dingling and Southern Xiongnu.

In 87, the Xianbei attacked the Xiongnu chanyu Youliu and killed him. They flayed him and his followers and took the skins back as trophies.

In 93, as the Northern Xiongnu were forced to the northwest by the Han dynasty, the Xianbei occupied the Mongolian Plateau, absorbing 100,000 Xiongnu tribes and increasing their strength.

In 109, the Wuhuan and Xianbei attacked Wuyuan Commandery and defeated local Han forces. The Southern Xiongnu chanyu Wanshishizhudi rebelled against the Han and attacked the Emissary Geng Chong but failed to oust him. Han forces under Geng Kui retaliated and defeated a force of 3,000 Xiongnu but could not take the Southern Xiongnu capital due to disease among the horses of their Xianbei allies.

The Xianbei under Qizhijian raided Han territory four times from 121 to 138. In 145, the Xianbei raided Dai Commandery.

Around 155, the northern Xiongnu were "crushed and subjugated" by the Xianbei.

Xianbei Confederation
Around the mid-2nd century, a chieftain, Tanshihuai, unified the Xianbei tribes and established an imperial court at Mount Danhan (彈汗山; in present-day Shangdu County, Inner Mongolia). Under Tanshihuai, the Xianbei attacked the Wusun in the west and repelled the Dingling from the north and Buyeo from the east. He divided the Xianbei empire into three sections, each governed by an appointed chieftain. "Tanshihuai of the Xianbei divided his territory into three sections: the eastern, the middle and the western. From the You Beiping to the Liao River, connecting the Fuyu and Mo to the east, it was the eastern section. There were more than twenty counties. The darens (chiefs) (of this section) were called Mijia 彌加, Queji 闕機, Suli 素利 and Huaitou 槐頭. From the You Beiping to Shanggu to the west, it was the middle section. There were more than ten counties. The darens of this section were called Kezui 柯最, Queju 闕居, Murong 慕容, et al. From Shanggu to Dunhuang, connecting the Wusun to the west, it was the western section. There were more than twenty counties. The darens (of this section) were called Zhijian Luoluo 置鞬落羅, Rilü Tuiyan 曰律推演, Yanliyou 宴荔游, et al. These chiefs were all subordinate to Tanshihuai."Throughout his reign, Tanshihuai aggressively raided the Han dynasty's northern borders, with his first recorded raid being in 156. In 166, he even allied with the Southern Xiongnu and Wuhuan to attack Shaanxi and Gansu. These raids devastated the border commanderies and claimed many lives. Though the Han was able to repel them at times, they were concerned that they would not be able to subdue Tanshihuai. The Han attempted to appease him by offering him the title of King, but Tanshihuai rejected them and continued to harass their borders.

In 177, Xia Yu, Tian Yan and the Southern Xiongnu Chanyu, Tute Ruoshi Zhujiu led a force of 30,000 against the Xianbei. They were defeated and returned with only one-tenth of their original forces. A memorial made that year records that the Xianbei had taken all the lands previously held by the Xiongnu and their warriors numbered 100,000. Han deserters who sought refuge in their lands served as their advisers and refined metals as well as wrought iron came into their possession. Their weapons were sharper and their horses faster than those of the Xiongnu. Another memorial submitted in 185 states that the Xianbei were making raids on Han settlements nearly every year.

Despite the constant raids, the loose Xianbei confederacy lacked the organization of the Xiongnu empire, and they were struggling to sustain their growing population. Tanshihuai died in 181 and was succeeded by his son, Helian, but he lacked his father's abilities and was killed in a raid on Beidi during the last years of Emperor Ling of Han. Helian's son, Qianman was too young at the time of his father's death, so the chieftains elected his nephew, Kuitou, to succeed him. Once Qianman came of age, however, he challenged his cousin to succession, destroying the last vestiges of unity among the Xianbei.

Three Kingdoms
By the Jian'an era (196–220), the Xianbei had split into many different groups, most notably with Kuitou ruling in Inner Mongolia, Kebineng in northern Shanxi, and Suli and Mijia in northern Liaodong. Following his death, Kuitou's brothers Budugen and Fuluohan succeeded him. After Cao Cao defeated the Wuhuan at the Battle of White Wolf Mountain in 207, Budugen, Fuluohan, Kebineng and others paid tribute to him. In 218, Fuluohan met with the Wuhuan chieftain Nengchendi to form an alliance, but Nengchendi double crossed him and called in Kebineng, who killed Fuluohan. Budugen went to the court of Cao Wei in 224 to ask for assistance against Kebineng, but he eventually betrayed them and allied with Kebineng in 233. Kebineng killed Budugen soon afterwards.

Kebineng was from a minor Xianbei tribe. He rose to power west of Dai Commandery by taking in a number of Chinese refugees, who helped him drill his soldiers and make weapons. After the defeat of the Wuhuan in 207, he also sent tribute to Cao Cao, and even provided assistance against the rebel Tian Yin. In 218 he allied himself to the Wuhuan rebel Nengchendi but they were heavily defeated and forced back across the frontier by Cao Zhang. In 220, he acknowledged Cao Pi as emperor of Cao Wei. Eventually, he turned on the Wei for frustrating his advances on Suli. Kebineng conducted raids on Cao Wei before he was killed in 235, after which his confederacy disintegrated. Many of the Xianbei tribes migrated south and settled on the borders of the Wei-Jin dynasties, where they often offered their submission. In 258, the Tuoba tribe settled in the abandoned city of Shengle, north of the Yin Mountains. To the east of them, the Yuwen tribe settled between the Luan River and Liucheng, while the Murong tribe were allowed to move deeper into Liaodong. The Duan tribe was founded in Liaoxi within the Great Wall by a Xianbei ex-slave along with a group of exiles. In the west, an offshoot of the Murong moved into northern Qinghai and mixed with the native Qiang people, becoming Tuyuhun. The Qifu tribe settled near the Longxi basin, while a branch of the Tuoba, the Tufa tribe, roamed the Hexi corridor. In 270, the Tufa chieftain, Tufa Shujineng, led the various ethnic tribes in the northwest in a rebellion against the Jin dynasty in Qin and Liang provinces but was defeated in 279 by Ma Long.

Sixteen Kingdoms and Northern Wei

During the War of the Eight Princes, the Xianbei of the northeast, primarily the Duan, were brought in to fight in the civil wars of the Jin princes and played a deciding factor in the wars. When the Xiongnu in Shanxi rebelled and founded the Han-Zhao dynasty, the Tuoba offered their assistance to Jin to fight the rebels. The Jin were heavily reliant on the Xianbei's military force as they gradually lost the north during the upheaval of the Five Barbarians. For their services, the Duan and Tuoba were granted the duchies of Liaoxi and Dai, respectively. However, for varying reasons, most of the Xianbei eventually withdrew from the conflict, allowing the remnants of Jin to be quickly overwhelmed. Mass number of Chinese officers, soldiers and civilians fled south to join the Eastern Jin or north to join the Xianbei duchies.

The Xianbei founded several of the Sixteen Kingdoms in northern China. The Murong of Liaodong were the most notable clan of this period. Having adopted the Jin governing system and customs, they rose to prominence during the fall of Western Jin by providing refuge and cooperating closely with the Chinese exiles, eventually establishing Xianbei rule over the Central Plains after they defeated the Ran Wei in 352. They founded the Former Yan (337–370), Later Yan (384–407) and Southern Yan (398–410), including the Western Yan (384–394) which is not considered to be one of the Sixteen Kingdoms. The Murong dominated the northeast and at one point vied to unify China, but fell short due to family infighting, corruption and weak rulers. Meanwhile, in Gansu, the Qifu established the Western Qin (385–431) while the Tufa established the Southern Liang (397–414).

The Tuoba retained their fiefdom of Dai (310–376), which was elevated to a kingdom in 315, before they were eventually conquered by the Di-led Former Qin dynasty. With the fall of Dai, northern China was briefly unified under the Qin, but as they rapidly collapsed following a disastrous defeat at the Battle of Fei River in 383, the Tuoba restored their state as the Northern Wei dynasty (386–535), becoming the first of the Northern dynasties (386–581). The Northern Wei grew in power after they defeated and supplanted the Later Yan on the Central Plains. In 439, they conquered the last of the Sixteen Kingdoms, thereby unifying the north and completing the transition into the Northern and Southern dynasties period.

Sinicization and assimilation
The Northern Wei unification was long-lasting and brought a period of relative peace to the north in the wake of the chaotic Sixteen Kingdoms period. Emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei established a policy of systematic sinicization that was continued by his successors and largely abandoned Xianbei traditions. The royal family took the sinicization a step further by decreeing the change of Xianbei names to Han names, even changing their own family name from Tuoba to Yuan. Emperor Xiaowen also moved the capital to Luoyang, one of the most important cities in Chinese history, away from Pingcheng near the northern frontiers. While the population in Luoyang were open to accepting the sinicization policies, the population near the old capital were more conservative and held on to their Xianbei culture.

Marriages to Han elite families were encouraged, and the Northern Wei started to arrange for Han Chinese elites to marry daughters of the Xianbei Tuoba royal family in the 480s. More than fifty percent of Tuoba Xianbei princesses of the Northern Wei were married to southern Han Chinese men from the imperial families and aristocrats from southern China of the Southern dynasties who defected and moved north to join the Northern Wei. Some Han Chinese exiled royalty fled from southern China and defected to the Xianbei. Several daughters of the Xianbei Emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei were married to Han Chinese elites, the Liu Song royal Liu Hui (刘辉), married Princess Lanling (蘭陵公主) of the Northern Wei,    Princess Huayang (華陽公主) to Sima Fei (司馬朏), a descendant of Jin dynasty (266–420) royalty, Princess Jinan (濟南公主) to Lu Daoqian (盧道虔), Princess Nanyang (南阳长公主) to Xiao Baoyin (萧宝夤), a member of Southern Qi royalty. Emperor Xiaozhuang of Northern Wei's sister the Shouyang Princess was wedded to The Liang dynasty ruler Emperor Wu of Liang's son Xiao Zong 蕭綜.

When the Eastern Jin dynasty ended, Northern Wei received the Han Chinese Jin prince Sima Chuzhi (司馬楚之) as a refugee. A Northern Wei Princess married Sima Chuzhi, giving birth to Sima Jinlong. Northern Liang Xiongnu King Juqu Mujian's daughter married Sima Jinlong.

In 534, the Northern Wei split into an Eastern Wei (534–550) and a Western Wei (535–556) after several uprisings in six major-frontier towns in the north inhabited by Xianbei, Han Chinese and various other ethnic groups. The conventional reason for the uprisings were the Northern Wei's sinicization policies; after moving the capital to Luoyang, the influence of the Xianbei military elites that guarded the northern frontiers declined in favour of the sinicized families in Luoyang, leading to widespread discontent. However, recent studies argue that the uprisings had more to do with the corruption of the upper-class military elites, weak economic base and harsh environment of the six frontier towns at the expense of the local lower-class soldiers and ethnic settlers.

The Eastern Wei evolved into the Northern Qi (550–577), and the Western Wei into the Northern Zhou (557–581), while the Southern dynasties were pushed to the south of the Yangtze River. The Northern Qi was ruled by the Gao clan, a Xianbeified Han Chinese family who were backed by the Xianbei elites and favoured the Xianbei tradition. The Northern Zhou was ruled by the Yuwen clan of Xianbei ethnicity. Ruling over a predominantly Chinese population, the military reforms of the Northern Zhou and its predecessor Western Wei saw their attempt to revive the Xianbei warrior culture, which includes reverting the sinicized names of the Northern Wei and rewarding Han Chinese officers with Xianbei names. The Prime Minister of Northern Zhou, Yang Jian, later had these names restored back to Han names.

In 581, Yang Jian founded the Sui dynasty (581–618). His son, the future Emperor Yang of Sui, absorbed the Chen dynasty (557–589), the last kingdom of the Southern dynasties, thereby unifying much of China. After the Sui came to an end amidst peasant rebellions and renegade troops, his cousin, Li Yuan, founded the Tang dynasty (618–907). Sui and Tang dynasties were founded by Han generals who also served the Northern Wei dynasty. Through these political establishments, the Xianbei who entered China were largely merged with the Chinese, examples such as the wife of Emperor Gaozu of Tang, Duchess Dou and Emperor Taizong of Tang's wife, Empress Zhangsun, both have Xianbei ancestries, while those who remained behind in the northern grassland emerged as later powers to rule over China as Mongol Yuan dynasty and Manchu Qing dynasty.

In the West, the Xianbei kingdom of Tuyuhun remained independent until it was defeated by the Tibetan Empire in 670. After the fall of the kingdom, the Xianbei people underwent a diaspora over a vast territory that stretched from the northwest into central and eastern parts of China. Murong Nuohebo led the Tuyuhun people eastward into central China, where they settled in modern Yinchuan, Ningxia.

Culture
The economic base of the Xianbei was animal husbandry combined with agricultural practice. They were the first to develop the khanate system, in which formation of social classes deepened, and developments also occurred in their literacy, arts and culture. They used a zodiac calendar and favoured song and music. Tengrism and subsequently Buddhism were the main religions among the Xianbei people. After they abandoned the frigid north and migrated into Northern China, they gradually abandoned nomadic lifestyle and were sinicized and assimilated with the Han Chinese. Emperor Xiaowen of the Xianbei-led state of Northern Wei in northern China, eventually decreed the changes of Xianbei names to Han names. Prior to Tanshihuai, the Xianbei did not have a hereditary system, and their chieftains were chosen by electing a member of their tribe based on their character and abilities. Even as they established their states on the Central Plains and adopted the Chinese hereditary system, influential brothers, uncles and cousins of the Xianbei rulers often posed as rival claimants to the throne.

Art
Art of the Xianbei portrayed their nomadic lifestyle and consisted primarily of metalwork and figurines. The style and subjects of Xianbei art were influenced by a variety of influences, and ultimately, the Xianbei were known for emphasizing unique nomadic motifs in artistic advancements such as leaf headdresses, crouching and geometricized animals depictions, animal pendant necklaces, and metal openwork.

Leaf headdresses
The leaf headdresses were very characteristic of Xianbei culture, and they are found especially in Murong Xianbei tombs. Their corresponding ornamental style also links the Xianbei to Bactria. These gold hat ornaments represented trees and antlers and, in Chinese, they are referred to as buyao ("step sway") since the thin metal leaves move when the wearer moves. Sun Guoping first uncovered this type of artifact, and defined three main styles: "Blossoming Tree" (huashu), which is mounted on the front of a cap near the forehead and has one or more branches with hanging leaves that are circle or droplet shaped, "Blossoming Top" (dinghua), which is worn on top of the head and resembles a tree or animal with many leaf pendants, and the rare "Blossoming Vine" (huaman), which consists of "gold strips interwoven with wires with leaves." Leaf headdresses were made with hammered gold and decorated by punching out designs and hanging the leaf pendants with wire. The exact origin, use, and wear of these headdresses is still being investigated and determined. However, headdresses similar to those later also existed and were worn by women in the courts.

Animal iconography

Another key form of Xianbei art is animal iconography, which was implemented primarily in metalwork. The Xianbei stylistically portrayed crouching animals in geometricized, abstracted, repeated forms, and distinguished their culture and art by depicting animal predation and same-animal combat. Typically, sheep, deer, and horses were illustrated. The artifacts, usually plaques or pendants, were made from metal, and the backgrounds were decorated with openwork or mountainous landscapes, which harks back to the Xianbei nomadic lifestyle. With repeated animal imagery, an openwork background, and a rectangular frame, the included image of the three deer plaque is a paradigm of the Xianbei art style. Concave plaque backings imply that plaques were made using lost-wax casting, or raised designs were impressed on the back of hammered metal sheets.

Horses
The nomadic traditions of the Xianbei inspired them to portray horses in their artwork. The horse played a large role in the existence of the Xianbei as a nomadic people, and in one tomb, a horse skull lay atop Xianbei bells, buckles, ornaments, a saddle, and one gilded bronze stirrup. The Xianbei not only created art for their horses, but they also made art to depict horses. Another recurring motif was the winged horse. It has been suggested by archaeologist Su Bai that this symbol was a "heavenly beast in the shape of a horse" because of its prominence in Xianbei mythology. This symbol is thought to have guided an early Xianbei southern migration, and is a recurring image in many Xianbei art forms.

Figurines
Xianbei figurines help to portray the people of the society by representing pastimes, depicting specialized clothing, and implying various beliefs. Most figurines have been recovered from Xianbei tombs, so they are primarily military and musical figures meant to serve the deceased in afterlife processions and guard their tomb. Furthermore, the figurine clothing specifies the according social statuses: higher-ranking Xianbei wore long-sleeved robes with a straight neck shirt underneath, while lower-ranking Xianbei wore trousers and belted tunics.

Buddhist influences
Xianbei Buddhist influences were derived from interactions with Han culture. The Han bureaucrats initially helped the Xianbei run their state, but eventually the Xianbei became Sinophiles and promoted Buddhism. The beginning of this conversion is evidenced by the Buddha imagery that emerges in Xianbei art. For instance, the included Buddha imprinted leaf headdress perfectly represents the Xianbei conversion and Buddhist synthesis since it combines both the traditional nomadic Xianbei leaf headdress with the new imagery of Buddha. This Xianbei religious conversion continued to develop in the Northern Wei dynasty, and ultimately led to the creation of the Yungang Grottoes.

Language
The Xianbei are thought to have spoken Mongolic or Para-Mongolic languages, with early and substantial Turkic influences, as Claus Schönig asserts: "The Xianbei derived from the context of the Donghu, who are likely to have contained the linguistic ancestors of the Mongols. Later branches and descendants of the Xianbei include the Tabghach and Khitan, who seem to have been linguistically Para-Mongolic. [...] Opinions differ widely as to what the linguistic impact of the Xianbei period was. Some scholars (like Clauson) have preferred to regard the Xianbei and Tabghach (Tuoba) as Turks, with the implication that the entire layer of early Turkic borrowings in Mongolic would have been received from the Xianbei, rather than from the Xiongnu. However, since the Mongolic (or Para-Mongolic) identity of the Xianbei is increasingly obvious in the light of recent progress in Khitan studies, it is more reasonable to assume (with Doerfer) that the flow of linguistic influence from Turkic into Mongolic was at least partly reversed during the Xianbei period, yielding the first identifiable layer of Mongolic (or Para-Mongolic) loanwords in Turkic."

It is also possible that the Xianbei spoke more than one language.

Anthropology

According to Du, et al. (2024), some historians believe that the Xianbei could have had "exotic" features such as high nose bridges, blond hair and thick beards. However, other scholars have suggested the appearance of the Xianbei was not dramatically different from modern East Asians. A genetic analysis of Emperor Wu of Northern Zhou revealed that he had an East Asian appearance, consistent with the hypothesis that the Xianbei were primarily of East Asian appearance.

Yellow hair in Chinese sources could have meant brown rather than blonde and described other people such as the Jie rather than the Xianbei. Historian Edward H. Schafer believes many of the Xianbei were blondes, but others such as Charles Holcombe think it is "likely that the bulk of the Xianbei were not visibly very different in appearance from the general population of northeastern Asia." Chinese anthropologist Zhu Hong and Zhang Quan-chao studied Xianbei crania from several sites of Inner Mongolia and noticed that anthropological features of studied Xianbei crania show that the racial type is closely related to the modern East-Asians, and some physical characteristics of those skulls are closer to modern Mongols, Manchu and Han Chinese.

Genetics
A genetic study published in The FEBS Journal in October 2006 examined the mtDNA of 21 Tuoba Xianbei buried at the Qilang Mountain Cemetery in Inner Mongolia, China. The 21 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups O (9 samples), D (7 samples), C (5 samples), B (2 samples) and A. These haplogroups are characteristic of Northeast Asians. Among modern populations they were found to be most closely related to the Oroqen people.

A genetic study published in the Russian Journal of Genetics in April 2014 examined the mtDNA of 17 Tuoba Xianbei buried at the Shangdu Dongdajing cemetery in Inner Mongolia, China. The 17 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups D4 (four samples), D5 (three samples), C (five samples), A (three samples), G and B.

A genetic study published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology in November 2007 examined 17 individuals buried at a Murong Xianbei cemetery in Lamadong, Liaoning, China ca. 300 AD. They were determined to be carriers of the maternal haplogroups J1b1, D (three samples), F1a (three samples), M, B, B5b, C (three samples) and G2a. These haplogroups are common among East Asians and some Siberians. The maternal haplogroups of the Murong Xianbei were noticeably different from those of the Huns and Tuoba Xianbei.

A genetic study published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology in August 2018 noted that the paternal haplogroup C2b1a1b has been detected among the Xianbei and the Rouran, and was probably an important lineage among the Donghu people.

A full genome analysis published in November 2023 analyzed the genomic data of nine Xianbei individuals (ca. 200 CE to 300 CE), together with previous published Xianbei samples, covering almost the entire period of Xianbei as well as pre- and post-Xianbei periods, and found that the Xianbei displayed a homogenous population with nearly exclusive Ancient Northeast Asian ancestry. The authors further remark that these results are consistent with an Amur River region, specifically around the Greater Khingan mountain range area, origin for the ancestral Xianbei population. Early Xianbei did not display signs of admixture from surrounding groups, while later Xianbei displayed limited amounts of admixture with "late Xiongnu-Sarmatian-like" and Han Chinese ("Yellow River farmer-like") groups. Later Xianbei in Northern China adopted an agricultural lifestyle and mixed with the local population, contributing to the genetic history of Northern China.

A 2024 study on Xianbei remains, including the remains of Emperor Wu of Northern Zhou, found them to be derived primarily from Ancient Northeast Asians at c. 62–96%, with a lower amount of admixture from Neolithic 'Yellow River farmers' (associated with Han Chinese) at c. 4–32%. Western Steppe Herder ancestry was only found at low amounts or absent entirely among the different Xianbei remains (average at c. 2–7%). The analysed Xianbei remains display their closest genetic affinities to ancient Khitan and Mohe people, as well as modern-day Mongolic peoples. The amount of Ancient Northeast Asian and Yellow River farmer ancestries varied depending on geographic location, suggesting a form of heterogeneity among the ancient Xianbei. In contrast to the Xianbei, the early Turkic ruling class, the Ashina tribe, was found to be nearly entirely derived from Ancient Northeast Asians without significant Yellow River ancestry.

Pre-dynastic

 * Tanshihuai (檀石槐, 136–181), Xianbei leader who led the Xianbei confederation
 * Kebineng (軻比能, died 235), Xianbei chieftain who lived during the late Eastern Han dynasty and Three Kingdoms period
 * Tufa Shujineng (禿髮樹機能, died 279), Xianbei chieftain who lived during the Three Kingdoms period

Yan and Tuyuhun

 * Murong Hui (慕容廆, 269–333), chieftain of the Murong tribe and Duke of Liaodong
 * Murong Tuyuhun (慕容吐谷渾, 246–317), founder of the Tuyuhun
 * Murong Huang (慕容皝, 297–348), founder of the Former Yan
 * Murong Chui (慕容垂, 326–396), a general of the Former Yan and founder of the Later Yan
 * Murong Ke (慕容恪, died 367), a general and statesman of the Former Yan
 * Murong Chong (慕容沖, died 359–386) second ruler of the Western Yan
 * Murong De (慕容德, 336–405), founder of the Southern Yan

Dai

 * Tuoba Yilu (拓跋猗盧, died 316), founder of the Tuoba Dai
 * Tuoba Shiyijian (拓跋什翼犍, 320–376), last ruler of the Tuoba Dai

Southern Liang

 * Tufa Wugu (禿髮烏孤, died 399), founder of the Southern Liang
 * Tufa Rutan (禿髮傉檀, 365–415), last ruler of the Southern Liang

Western Qin

 * Qifu Gangui (乞伏乾歸, died 412), second ruler of the Western Qin
 * Qifu Chipan (乞伏熾磐, died 428), third ruler of the Western Qin

Northern dynasties

 * Tuoba Gui (拓跋珪, 371–409), founding emperor of the Northern Wei
 * Tuoba Tao (拓拔燾, 408–452), third emperor of the Northern Wei
 * Tufa Poqiang (禿髮破羌, 407–479), a paramount general of the Northern Wei
 * Yuwen Tai (宇文泰, 507–556), a paramount general of the state Western Wei, a branch successor state of Northern Wei
 * Dugu Xin (独孤信, 503–557), a paramount general of the state Western Wei
 * Yuchi Jiong (尉遲迥, died 580), a paramount general of the states Western Wei and Northern Zhou
 * Lou Zhaojun (婁昭君, 501–562), an empress dowager of the state Northern Qi
 * Lu Lingxuan (陸令萱, died 577), a lady in waiting in the palace of the state Northern Qi
 * Yuwen Hu (宇文護, 513–572), a regent of the state Northern Zhou
 * Mu Tipo (穆提婆, 527–577), a paramount official of the state Northern Qi
 * Mu Yeli (穆邪利, 557–577), an empress of the state Northern Qi
 * Gao Anagong (高阿那肱, died 580), a paramount official and general of the state Northern Qi
 * Queen Dugu (獨孤王后, 536–558), a queen of the state Northern Zhou
 * Yuwen Yong (宇文邕, 543–578), emperor of the state Northern Zhou

Sui dynasty

 * Dugu Qieluo (獨孤伽羅, 544–602), formally Empress Wenxian (文獻皇后), an empress of the Sui dynasty
 * Yuchi Yichen (尉遲義臣, died 617), a prominent general of the Sui dynasty
 * Yuwen Shu (宇文述, died 616), a paramount general of the Sui dynasty
 * Yuwen Huaji (宇文化及, 569–619), a paramount general of the Sui dynasty
 * Yuwen Zhiji (宇文智及, 572–619), a general of the Sui dynasty

Tang dynasty

 * Empress Zhangsun (長孫皇后, 601–636), an empress of the Tang dynasty. She was the wife of Emperor Taizong
 * Zhangsun Wuji (長孫無忌, died 659), a paramount official who served both as general and chancellor in the early Tang dynasty
 * Yuchi Jingde (尉遲敬德, 585–658), a famous general who lived in the early Tang dynasty, Yuchi Jingde and another general Qin Shubao are worshipped as door gods in Chinese folk religion
 * Qutu Tong (屈突通, 557–628), a general in the Sui and Tang dynasties of China. He was listed as one of 24 founding officials of the Tang dynasty honored on the Lingyan Pavilion due to his contributions in wars during the transitional period from Sui to Tang
 * Zhangsun Shunde (長孫顺德, ?–?), a general in the early Tang dynasty
 * Yuwen Shiji (宇文士及, died 642), an official who served both as general and chancellor in the early Tang dynasty
 * Yu Zhining (于志寧, 588–665), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reigns of Emperor Taizong and Emperor Gaozong
 * Dou Dexuan (竇德玄, 598–666), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Gaozong
 * Yuwen Jie (宇文節, ?–?), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Gaozong
 * Lou Shide (婁師德, 630–699), a scholar-general of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Wu Zetian
 * Doulu Qinwang (豆盧欽望, 624–709), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Wu Zetian
 * Dou Huaizhen (竇懷貞, died 713), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Xuanzong
 * Yuwen Rong (宇文融, died 731), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Xuanzong
 * Yuan Qianyao (源乾曜, died 731), a chancellor of the Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Xuanzong
 * Yu Di (于頔, died 818), a general and official of the Tang dynasty
 * Tutu Chengcui (吐突承璀, died 820), a paramount eunuch official of the middle Tang dynasty
 * Yuan Zhen (元稹, 779–831), a poet and politician of the middle Tang dynasty
 * Yu Cong (于琮, died 881), a chancellor of the late Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Yizong
 * Doulu Zhuan (豆盧瑑, died 881), a chancellor of the late Tang dynasty, during the reign of Emperor Xizong

Modern descendants
Most Xianbei clans adopted Chinese family names during the Northern Wei dynasty. In particular, many were sinicized under Emperor Xiaowen of Northern Wei.

The Northern Wei's Eight Noble Xianbei surnames 八大贵族 were the Buliugu 步六孤, Helai 賀賴, Dugu 獨孤, Helou 賀樓, Huniu 忽忸, Qiumu 丘穆, Gexi 紇奚, and Yuchi 尉遲.

The "Monguor" (Tu) people in modern China may have descended from the Xianbei who were led by Tuyuhun Khan to migrate westward and establish the Tuyuhun Kingdom (284–670) in the third century and Western Xia (1038–1227) through the thirteenth century. Today they are primarily distributed in Qinghai and Gansu Province, and speak a Mongolic language.

The Xibe or "Xibo" people also believe they are descendants of the Xianbei, with considerable controversies that have attributed their origins to the Jurchens, the Elunchun, and the Xianbei.

Xianbei descendants among the Korean population carry surnames such as Mo 모 ( (shortened from Murong)), Seok Sŏk Sek 석 (shortened from Wushilan 烏石蘭), Won Wŏn 원 ( (the adopted Chinese surname of the Tuoba)) and Dokgo 독고 ( (from Dugu)).

title: Xianbei


text:
Pussy

Pussy is a term used as a noun, an adjective, and—in rare instances—a verb in the English language. It has several meanings, as slang, as euphemism, and as vulgarity. Most commonly, it is used as a noun with the meaning "cat", "coward", or "weakling". In slang usage, it can mean "vulva or vagina" and less commonly, as a form of synecdoche, meaning "sexual intercourse with a woman". Because of its multiple senses including both innocent and vulgar connotations, pussy is often the subject of double entendre.

The etymology of the word is not clear. Several different senses of the word have different histories or origins. The earliest records of pussy are in the 19th century, meaning something fluffy.

Etymology
The noun pussy meaning "cat" comes from the Modern English word puss, a conventional name or term of address for a pet cat. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) says that cognates are common to several Germanic languages, including Dutch poes and Middle Low German pūse, which are also used to call a cat. The word puss is attested in English as early as 1533. Earlier etymology is uncertain, but similar words exist in other European languages, including Lithuanian puižė and Irish puisín, both traditional calls to attract a cat.

The words puss and derived forms pussy and pusscat were extended to refer to girls or women by the seventeenth century. This sense of pussy was used to refer specifically to genitalia by the eighteenth century, and from there further extended to refer to sexual intercourse involving a woman by the twentieth century.

Noah Webster, in his original 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language, defined pussy as: "inflated, swelled; hence, fat, short and thick; and as persons of this make labor in respiration, the word is used for short breathed". He gave pursy as a "corrupt orthography" or misspelling of pussy. In 1913, however, Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary reversed the original, suggesting that pussy was a "colloquial or low" variant of pursy. That word, in turn, was defined as "fat and short-breathed", with etymology from Old French pousser "to push". In the Northern English variant of British English, the dialect form pursy, now rare or obsolete, means "fat" or "short-winded".

The Webster's Third International Dictionary points out similarities between pussy in the sense of "vulva" and Low German or Scandinavian words meaning "pocket" or "purse", including Old Norse pūss and Old English pusa.

The medieval French word pucelle, meaning "maiden" or "virgin", is not related to the English word. It is attested in Old French from the ninth century, and likely derives from Latin. The precise Latin source is disputed, with either puella "girl" or pulla "pullet, young female chicken" suggested as earlier sources.

As a homograph, pussy also has the meaning "containing pus"; with this meaning, the word is pronounced, while the other forms are all pronounced.

Meanings of the verb relate to the common noun senses, including "to act like a cat", "to act like a coward", or "to have sex with a woman". Adjective meanings are likewise related to the noun.

Cat and similar
Both in English and in German puss was used as a "call-name" for cats, but in English pussy was used as a synonym for the word cat in other uses as well. In addition to cats, the word was also used for rabbits and hares. In the 19th century, the meaning was extended to anything soft and furry. Pussy willow, for example, is a name applied to various species in the genus Salix with furry catkins. In thieves' cant the word pussy means a "fur coat".

The Oxford English Dictionary gives as the first meaning of the noun: "Chiefly colloq[uial]. A girl or woman exhibiting characteristics associated with a cat, esp[ecially] sweetness or amiability. Freq[uently] used as a pet name or as a term of endearment." The examples it cites from the mid-19th to mid-20th centuries are not sexual. Another example, not cited by the OED, is one of the main characters of E. Nesbit's Five Children and It - Jane, nicknamed Pussy by her siblings.

The verb pussyfoot, meaning to walk softly or to speak in an evasive or cautious manner, may come from the adjective pussy-footed "having a cat-like foot", or directly from the noun pussyfoot. This word, first attested in the late nineteenth century, is related to both the "cat" and the "woman" meanings of pussy.

Female genitalia
In contemporary English, use of the word pussy to refer to women themselves is considered derogatory and demeaning, treating women as sexual objects. As a reference to genitals or to sexual intercourse, the word is considered vulgar slang. Studies find the word is used more commonly in conversations among men than in groups of women or mixed-gender groups, though subjects report using pussy more often than other slang terms for female genitals. There are women seeking to reclaim the word to symbolise sexual pleasure, power, and trust in their bodies (e.g. around childbirth).

Donald Trump's use of the word to describe celebrity interactions with women ("grab them by the pussy", known as the Access Hollywood tape) provoked strong reactions by media figures and politicians across the political spectrum; an image of a snarling cat with the slogan "pussy grabs back" became a "rallying cry for female rage against Trump". Pink "pussyhats" (knitted caps with cat-like ears) were a notable feature of the worldwide protests held the day after Trump's inauguration as President of the United States. The name attempts to reclaim the derogatory term and was never intended to be an anatomical representation.

Words referring to cats are used as vulgar slang for female genitals in some other European languages as well. Examples include German Muschi (literally "house cat"), French chatte ("female cat", also used to refer to sexual intercourse), and Dutch poes ("puss"). The Portuguese term rata (literally "female rat") and Norwegian mus ("mouse") are also animal terms used as vulgar slang for women's genitals.

Weakness
The word pussy is also used in a derogatory sense to mean cowardly, weak, or easily fatigued. The Collins Dictionary says: "(taboo, slang, mainly US) an ineffectual or timid person." It may refer to a male who is not considered sufficiently masculine, as in: "The coach calls us pussies."

Men who are dominated by women (particularly by their partners or spouses and at one time referred to as "hen-pecked"; see pecking order) can be referred to as pussy-whipped (or simply whipped in slightly more polite society or media). This may be used simply to denigrate a man who is contented in a relationship. The hyphenated phrase is parsed as "whipped by pussy", a manipulative relationship dynamic wherein a female deliberately or subconsciously withholds sexual intercourse to coerce the male into surrendering power in other aspects of the relationship. The male's weakness is his desire for access to female genitalia, and his willingness to weaken his position in the relationship to obtain that access, combining two uses of the word pussy.

Word-play between meanings
Pussy is one of a large number of English words that has both erotic and non-erotic meanings. Such double entendres have long been used in the creation of sexual humor. This double meaning of "pussy" has been used for over a hundred years by performers, including the late-19th-century vaudeville act the Barrison Sisters, who performed the notorious routine "Do You Want To See My Pussy?" in which they raised their skirts to reveal live kittens.

In the British comedy Are You Being Served? the character Mrs. Slocombe often expressed concern for the welfare of her pussy. The double entendre made every reference to her cat seem to be a salacious and therefore humorous reference to her vulva.

In the 2002 film 8 Mile, a rapper insults his rivals by including the line, "How can six dicks be pussies?" The line relies on double meanings of both dick (either "contemptible person" or "male genitalia") and pussy ("weak" or "female genitalia"). Such word play presents a challenge for translators of the film.

Pussy Riot is a Russian radical feminist punk rock collective that stages illegal events in Moscow protesting President Vladimir Putin and the status of women in Russian society. Band member "Kot" says that she knows how the word is used in English, and that it is also used in Russian as term of endearment for little girls. These various meanings create a tension with the word "riot", which the group likes.

In 2017 Planned Parenthood released a series of short videos on YouTube about female sexual health, with the overall title "How to take care of your pussy". Instead of the word "pussy" being shown or spoken, a cat appears instead. The visuals consist mainly of cats, playing on the popularity of cat videos, with a voiceover by Sasheer Zamata. Refinery29 called it "a pretty genius metaphor" and Metro said: "If there are two things left in this world that are inherently wonderful, it's cats and vaginas. Don't argue. It's true.[...] It makes sense, then, that Planned Parenthood has decided to combine the two to create a truly splendid video series." The series has been shortlisted for a Shorty Award.

title: Pussy