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Big Arm, Montana

Big Arm is a census-designated place (CDP) in Lake County, Montana, United States. The population was 177 at the 2010 census, up from 131 in 2000.

The town is situated on the south side of Big Arm, a large bay on Flathead Lake, hence its name. The name was used by the Kootenai people, who lived there prior to the town being established. The post office opened in 1911, with Marion F. Lamb as postmaster.

Big Arm State Park is located just north of the town.

Geography
Big Arm is located in northwestern Lake County at 47.80222°N, -114.28083°W (47.802296, -114.280952). The census-designated place contains the settlement of Big Arm along the southern shore of Flathead Lake's Big Arm, as well as undeveloped grassland to the south, up to the base of an unnamed 5100 ft mountain. The CDP is bordered to the northeast by the community of Lindisfarne.

U.S. Route 93 passes through Big Arm, running just south of the lake shore. The highway leads southeast 12 mi to Polson, the Lake county seat, and northwest 4 mi to Elmo. The city of Kalispell is 39 mi north of Big Arm.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the CDP has a total area of 14.0 km2, all land.

Climate
This climatic region is typified by large seasonal temperature differences, with warm to hot (and often humid) summers and cold (sometimes severely cold) winters. According to the Köppen Climate Classification system, Big Arm has a humid continental climate, abbreviated "Dfb" on climate maps.

Demographics
As of the census of 2000, there were 131 people, 56 households, and 39 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 24.0 PD/sqmi. There were 124 housing units at an average density of 22.8 /sqmi. The racial makeup of the CDP was 69.47% White and 30.53% Native American.

There were 56 households, out of which 23.2% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 53.6% were married couples living together, 8.9% had a female householder with no husband present, and 28.6% were non-families. 21.4% of all households were made up of individuals, and 7.1% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.34 and the average family size was 2.60.

In the CDP, the population was spread out, with 19.8% under the age of 18, 9.2% from 18 to 24, 18.3% from 25 to 44, 29.8% from 45 to 64, and 22.9% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 47 years. For every 100 females there were 111.3 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 110.0 males.

The median income for a household in the CDP was $29,000, and the median income for a family was $38,750. Males had a median income of $16,750 versus $21,875 for females. The per capita income for the CDP was $16,620. There were no families and 8.0% of the population living below the poverty line, including no under eighteens and 30.0% of those over 64.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Big Arm, Montana


text:
Talk:Philosophy of physics

Add and delete references
1. The first reference can not be found and should be deleted. 2.Add a new reference after the second reference: Creating a Universe, a Conceptual Model, Journal of Philosophy and Cosmology, http://ispcjournal.org/journals/2016-17/PC_vol_17-86-105.pdf. ISSN 2518-1866 (Online), ISSN 2307-3705 (Print). The Journal of Philosophy and Cosmology 2016 (Vol. 17). This new reference specifically addresses space and time. Any concerns with proposal? Thanks Jim J Jim Johnson 15:13, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks for pointing out the first reference problem. I improved the citation and added a GBooks link. It exists. --Mark viking (talk) 18:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Three main areas? original research?
Looks like original research, see and,  Doug Weller  talk 18:04, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Doug, I think you are viewing the existing version which has the reference I was referring to already deleted. I agree it is now correct. Jim Johnson 22:51, 9 September 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimjohnson2222 (talk • contribs)

 * I'm a bit puzzled. The intro *could* be OR, but your links - e.g. - actually support the article's text. So does Oxford's blurb: http://www.sites.hps.cam.ac.uk/research/pp.html says the three main areas of research in the foundations and philosophy of physics: quantum mechanics, space and time, and statistical mechanics William M. Connolley (talk) 08:55, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

 * The article says quantum physics, space and time, and "Inter-theoretic relations". Sklar's third area is "probabilistic and statistical theories of the "classical" sort". The three you mention are similar. But that reading list link is dated 2007 and the Oxford Handbook that I linked to is 2013 and it doesn't seem to argue for three main areas. Sklar is even older, 1992. The Routledge Companion to Philosophy of Science is also from 2013 and I don't think you'll find it arguing for 3 main areas either. So I don't see sources for Inter-theoretic relations as the 3rd nor recent sources with this analysis. Doug Weller  talk 09:35, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. More seriously, although the article lists 3 in it's intro, it only deals with the other two. Our third that you label "Inter-theoretic relations", is Inter-theoretic relations: the relationship between various physical theories, such as thermodynamics and statistical mechanics. So it does at least include stat mech, that Oxford does (that Oxford list is current). TBH though I don't understand what philosophical problems stat mech presents (unless this is a disguised arrow-of-time type thing) and I guess neither does the article since, as noted, it isn't covered William M. Connolley (talk) 09:52, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I meant Cambridge list, which has nothing more recent thatn 2007. I don't have the time or interest to work on this though, just came across it because I saw Jimjohnson adding an article he wrote. Doug Weller  talk 18:33, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I have caused some confusion. The reference I deleted could not be found on the web, :

I was not saying the sentences should be deleted. As I said the reference was deleted. I agree with the three area comments. Jim Johnson 21:33, 10 September 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimjohnson2222 (talk • contribs)

Leibniz
Again, please state reasons as to how do you define an idea as "irrelevant", or "trashy". How strong is a relation to be considered relevant to physics as stated? Please give an objective criteria that in your opinion, was reached by previous sections that allowed these previous revisions to remain. See the previous sources mentioned on your talk page.

 * Please learn to sign your edits - not doing so is impolite; use ~ . Also, you're a bit confused: my "trashy" comment was for this edit which is nothing to do with you. So, don't be so touchy.
 * Now, onto the "irrelevance" : firstly, providing 10 references for an idea is generally a sign of weakness, not strength: one good reference will do, 10 bad ones won't. As to Leibniz was particularly interested on the Confucian texts and discussions on the I Ching and referenced such concepts on his calculus - this really isn't relevant to the philosophy of physics, unless something says it is, and I don't see anything saying it is. Nor are binary codes, which you're also tying to push, for unclear reasons.
 * Looking over at the L page, I notice drivel such as Regardless, Leibniz simplified the binary system which suggests there are problems over there William M. Connolley (talk) 14:25, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Article Revamp
This article needs a complete revamp. Many sections are poorly written and sparsely sourced. When I gave it a quick skim I saw numerous errors and omissions. Over the next few weeks I'll try to revamp this article entirely - if anyone is interested in joining me, let me know. I think we can get this to GA status. Chase Kanipe (talk) 15:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Philosophy of physics


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Charlo, Montana

Charlo (Salish: sallu ) is an unincorporated community and census-designated place (CDP) in Lake County, Montana, United States. The population was 385 at the 2020 census.

The town was named in 1918 after the Salish leader Chief Charlo. Previously it had been called Big Flat, Charlotte, and Tabor.

Geography
According to the United States Census Bureau, the CDP has a total area of 5.2 km2, of which 0.03 sqkm, or 0.58%, are water.

Charlo is located in southern Lake County and is 22 mi south of Polson, the county seat. The CDP is within the Flathead Indian Reservation.

Charlo borders several protected areas, including the Herak Waterfowl Production area and Ninepipes Reservoir. These protected areas, along with seasonal flood irrigation, provide habitats for various native fauna such as white-tailed deer, pheasants, bald eagles, and western painted turtles.

Charlo is home to the Owl Research Institute which manages scientific research on Owls of all species. There are also 2 platforms for osprey nests located near the lake. A live cam features real-time video of the birds.

Southwest of Charlo is the CSKT Bison Range, a refuge managed by the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes.

2020 Data
At the 2020 census, there were 385 people, 170 households and 133 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 219.4 PD/sqmi. There were 170 housing units at an average density of 193.37/sq mi(74.64/km2). The racial makeup of the CDP was 79.4% White, .26% African American, 11.7% Native American, .52% from other races, and 7.5% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.86% of the population.

There were 170 households, of which 13.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 34.6% were married couples living together, 35.3% had a female householder with no husband present, and 42.9% were non-families. 44.4% of all households were made up of individuals, and 21.1% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 1.87 and the average family size was 2.64.

8.6% of the population were under the age of 18, 3.9% from 18 to 24, 15.3% from 25 to 44, 23.1% from 45 to 64, and 15.8% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 52.6 years. For every 100 females, there were 102.4 males. The median household income was $34,219 and the median family income was $48,066. Males had a median income of $22,500 and females $19,375. About 11.6% of families and 19.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 13.3% of those under age 18 and 24.5% of those age 65 or over.

Town events
Each year, residents of Charlo host a Fourth of July parade and cookout along Main Street. Regular participants include local equestrian units, Charlo "all school" alumni, representatives from all branches of military service, and the local fire department.

In addition, the town also hosts an annual Fireman's Benefit and Dinner to support the local volunteer fire department. The Charlo Outdoor Community Complex, a community-sponsored organization to fund a new track and football field for the Charlo Public School, hosts an annual Fun run, 5K run, and 10K run as a fundraiser event.

Government
The local government is a mayor-council system. There are four elected city council members.

Education
Charlo School District educates students from kindergarten through 12th grade. They are known as the Vikings. Charlo High School is a Class C school, which is a designation used for sporting events.

As of 2023, Charlo School District had a total of 229 students enrolled: 96 elementary students, 57 middle school students, and 76 high school students. Along with core classes, Charlo School District offers a variety of electives.

Educational Clubs
Charlo High School offers clubs such as Business Professionals of America (BPA), Health Occupations Students of America (HOSA), SkillsUSA, National Honor Society (NHS), and more.

Media
The Valley Journal provides local news to Arlee, Charlo, Pablo, Polson, Ronan, and St. Ignatius.

The FM radio station KYMI is licensed in Charlo. It is owned by the Educational Media Foundation, a Christian media ministry.

Infrastructure
Charlo is along Montana Highway 212. It is 4 mi west of U.S. Route 93. Via Highway 212, it is 13 mi northeast of Dixon.

The nearest commercial airport is Missoula Montana Airport, 50 mi away. Another option is Glacier Park International Airport, 78 mi away.

title: Charlo, Montana


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Elmo, Montana

Elmo (Salish: sqʷʔeʔ, Kutenai: k̓upawi¢q̓nuk ) is a census-designated place (CDP) in Lake County, Montana, United States. The population was 180 at the 2010 census, up from 143 in 2000.

The townsite was platted in 1917. Elmo had a dock and warehouse that served boat traffic on Flathead Lake.

Geography
Elmo is located in northwestern Lake County at 47.82806°N, -114.34778°W (47.828057, -114.347678). It sits at the west end of the Big Arm on Flathead Lake. U.S. Route 93 passes through the community, leading north 35 mi to Kalispell and southeast 16 mi to Polson, the Lake county seat. Montana Highway 28 has its eastern terminus at US 93 in Elmo and leads southwest 46 mi to Montana Highway 200 at Plains.

According to the United States Census Bureau, the Elmo CDP has a total area of 0.3 sqmi, all land.

Climate
This climatic region is typified by large seasonal temperature differences, with warm to hot (and often humid) summers and cold (sometimes severely cold) winters. According to the Köppen Climate Classification system, Elmo has a humid continental climate, abbreviated "Dfb" on climate maps.

Demographics
As of the census of 2000, there were 143 people, 52 households, and 31 families residing in the CDP. The population density was 439.9 PD/sqmi. There were 62 housing units at an average density of 190.7 /sqmi. The racial makeup of the CDP was 31.47% White, 67.83% Native American, and 0.70% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.10% of the population.

There were 52 households, out of which 36.5% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 36.5% were married couples living together, 19.2% had a female householder with no husband present, and 38.5% were non-families. 25.0% of all households were made up of individuals, and 9.6% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.75 and the average family size was 3.56.

In the CDP, the population was spread out, with 30.8% under the age of 18, 7.7% from 18 to 24, 25.2% from 25 to 44, 23.1% from 45 to 64, and 13.3% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 33 years. For every 100 females, there were 76.5 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 83.3 males.

The median income for a household in the CDP was $8,036, and the median income for a family was $8,250. Males had a median income of $0 versus $3,750 for females. The per capita income for the CDP was $2,778. There were 100.0% of families and 96.1% of the population living below the poverty line, including 100.0% of under 18 and 45.5% of those over 64.

title: Elmo, Montana


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List of Indian reservations in the United States

This is a list of Indian reservations and other tribal homelands in the United States. In Canada, the Indian reserve is a similar institution.

Federally recognized reservations
There are approximately 326 federally recognized Indian Reservations in the United States. Most of the tribal land base in the United States was set aside by the federal government as Native American Reservations. In California, about half of its reservations are called rancherías. In New Mexico, most reservations are called Pueblos. In some western states, notably Nevada, there are Native American areas called Indian colonies. Populations are the total census counts and include non-Native American people as well, sometimes making up a majority of the residents. The total population of all of them is 1,043,762.

Alaska Native village statistical areas
Alaska Native Village Statistical Areas are geographical areas the United States Census Bureau uses to track demographic data. These statistical areas represent permanent or seasonal residences of Alaska natives. Specifically, they contain a significant proportion of persons who are either member of, or receiving services from a defining Alaska Native Village for at least one season of the year. Alaska Natives previously had many small reserves scattered around Alaska; however, all but one (the Annette Island Reserve of Tsimshian) were repealed with the passage of the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act in 1971.

Oklahoma tribal statistical areas
(*) declared reservations under McGirt v. Oklahoma

State-recognized reservations
A state designated American Indian reservation is the land area designated by a state for state-recognized American Indian tribes who lack federal recognition.

State designated tribal statistical areas
State Designated Tribal Statistical Areas are geographical areas the United States Census Bureau uses to track demographic data. These areas have a substantial concentration of members of tribes that are State recognized but not Federally recognized and do not have a reservation or off-reservation trust land.

Tribal designated statistical areas
A tribal designated statistical area is a statistical entity identified and delineated for the Census Bureau by a federally recognized American Indian tribe that does not currently have a federally established Indian reservation.


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Progressive Conservative Party of Canada

The Progressive Conservative Party of Canada (PC; Parti progressiste-conservateur du Canada) was a centre to centre-right federal political party in Canada that existed from 1942 to 2003.

From Canadian Confederation in 1867 until 1942, the original Conservative Party of Canada participated in numerous governments and had multiple names. In 1942, its name was changed to the Progressive Conservative Party under the request of newly elected party leader Premier John Bracken of Manitoba, a former member of the Progressive Party of Manitoba. In the 1957 federal election, John Diefenbaker carried the party to their first victory in 27 years and the following year, led the party to the largest federal electoral landslide in history. During his tenure, human rights initiatives were achieved, most notably the Bill of Rights. In the 1963 federal election, the party lost power and would not regain it until 1979, when Joe Clark led the party to a minority government victory. The party lost power just nine months later and in 1983, Clark lost his leadership role to Brian Mulroney, who helped the PC Party gain popularity in Quebec. Mulroney won back-to-back majority governments in 1984 and 1988, and during his tenure, major economic reforms such as the North American Free Trade Agreement and the goods and services tax (GST) were introduced.

The GST, the government's failed attempts to revise the Constitution with the Meech Lake and Charlottetown accords, and the early 1990s recession, led to the party's increasing unpopularity and eventual collapse in the 1993 federal election where they won just two seats. In Western Canada the bulk of the party's support transferred to the right-wing populist Reform Party (which later became the Canadian Alliance), while in Quebec support shifted to the sovereigntist Bloc Québécois. The Progressive Conservatives failed to recover much lost ground in the subsequent 1997 and 2000 federal elections. When it became clear that neither the Progressive Conservatives nor the Canadian Alliance could on their own defeat the incumbent Liberals, an effort to unite the right-of-centre parties emerged. Eventually, in 2003 the party membership voted to dissolve the party and merge with the Canadian Alliance to form the current Conservative Party of Canada.

Like their British counterparts, members and supporters of the Progressive Conservative Party were known as "Tories". Provincial variants of the Progressive Conservative Party continue to exist in a number of provinces.

History
Canada's first prime minister, John A. Macdonald, belonged to the Liberal-Conservative Party (Libéral-Conservateur).

The federal Tories governed Canada for over 40 of the country's first 70 years of existence. However, the party spent the majority of its history in opposition as the nation's number-two federal party, behind the Liberal Party of Canada. From 1896 to 1993, the Tories formed a government six times—from 1911 to 1921, briefly in 1926, from 1930 to 1935, from 1957 to 1963, from 1979 to 1980 and from 1984 to 1993. It stands as the only Canadian party to have won more than 200 seats in an election—a feat it accomplished twice: in 1958 and 1984.

The party suffered a decade-long decline following the 1993 federal election and formally dissolved on December 7, 2003, when it merged with the Canadian Alliance to form the modern-day Conservative Party of Canada. The last meeting of the Progressive Conservative federal caucus was held in early 2004. The Conservative Party of Canada took power in 2006 and governed under the leadership of Stephen Harper until 2015, when it was defeated by the Liberal Party under Justin Trudeau.

Between the party's founding in 1867 and its adoption of the "Progressive Conservative" name in 1942, the party changed its name several times. It was most commonly known as the Conservative Party.

Several loosely associated provincial Progressive Conservative parties continue to exist in Manitoba, Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland and Labrador. As well, a small rump of senators opposed the merger, and continued to sit in the Parliament of Canada as Progressive Conservatives. The last one of them rescinded their party status in 2016. The Yukon association of the party renamed itself as the Yukon Party in 1990. The British Columbia Progressive Conservative Party changed its name to the British Columbia Conservative Party in 1991. Saskatchewan's Progressive Conservative Party effectively ceased to exist in 1997, when the Saskatchewan Party formed – primarily from former PC Members of the Legislative Assembly (MLAs) with a few Saskatchewan Liberal MLAs joining them.

The party adopted the "Progressive Conservative" party name in 1942 when Manitoba Premier John Bracken, a long-time leader of that province's Progressive Party, agreed to become leader of the federal Conservatives on condition that the party add Progressive to its name. Despite the name change, most former Progressive supporters continued to support the Liberal Party of Canada or the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, and Bracken's leadership of the Conservative Party came to an end in 1948. Many Canadians simply continued to refer to the party as "the Conservatives".

A major weakness of the party since 1885 was its inability to win support in Quebec, estranged significantly by that year's execution of Louis Riel. The Conscription Crisis of 1917 exacerbated the issue. Even though the Conservative Party of Quebec dominated politics in that province for the first 30 years of Confederation at both the federal and provincial levels, in the 20th century the party was never able to become a force in provincial politics, losing power in 1897, and dissolving in 1935 into the Union Nationale, which took power in 1936 under Maurice Duplessis.

In 20th-century federal politics, the Conservatives were often seen as insensitive to French-Canadian ambitions and interests and seldom succeeded in winning more than a handful of seats in Quebec, with a few notable exceptions:
 * the 1930 federal election, in which Richard Bedford Bennett surprisingly led the party to a thin majority government victory by securing 24 seats in rural Quebec;
 * the 1958 federal election, in which John Diefenbaker rode the backing of the right-leaning Union Nationale provincial government in Quebec to 50 of the province's 75 seats; and
 * the federal elections of 1984 and 1988, when party leader Brian Mulroney, a fluently bilingual Quebecois, built an electoral coalition that included Quebec nationalists.

The party never fully recovered from the fragmentation of Mulroney's broad coalition in the late 1980s resulting in part from the failure of two provinces to ratify the Meech Lake Accord. Immediately prior to its merger with the Canadian Alliance, it held only 15 of 301 seats in the House of Commons of Canada. The party did not hold more than 20 seats in Parliament between 1993 and 2003.

The party pre-dates confederation in 1867, when it accepted many conservative-leaning former members of the Liberal Party into its ranks. At confederation, the Liberal-Conservative Party of Canada became Canada's first governing party under Sir John A. Macdonald; for years, it was either the governing party of Canada or the largest opposition party. The party changed its name to the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada following the election as leader of Progressive Party of Manitoba Premier John Bracken in December 1942, who insisted on the name change as a condition of becoming leader.

Ideology
The Progressive Conservative Party was generally on the centre-right on the political spectrum. From 1867 on, the party was identified with Protestant and, in Quebec, Roman Catholic social values, British imperialism, Canadian nationalism, and constitutional centralism. This was highly successful until 1920, and to that point in history, the party was the most successful federal party in the Dominion.

As such, Canadian conservatism historically initially more closely resembled that which was practised in the United Kingdom and, to an extent, Europe, than in the United States. The "Tory" approach worked well for the party until 1917, when, as was common amongst 19th-century conservative movements, Canadian Tories opposed the rollback of government intervention in social and economic matters advocated by the liberals of the era. In contrast to "American conservative" counterparts, however, they did not undertake as dramatic an ideological turnaround in the first half of the 20th century by continuing to follow mercantilism and nascent notions of the welfare state.

Like their federal Liberal rivals, the party defined itself as a "big tent", welcoming a broad variety of members who supported relatively loosely defined goals. Unlike the Liberal Party, there was a long history of ongoing factionalism within this tent. This factionalism arose from the party's lack of electoral success, and because the party often reached out to particular political groups in order to garner enough support to topple the Liberals. These groups usually remained semi-autonomous blocs within the party, such as Quebec nationalists and western Canadian Reformers in the 1980s. In later years, observers generally grouped the PC Party's core membership into two camps, "Red Tories" and "Blue Tories".

Red Tories tend to be traditionally conservative, that is, "Tory" in the Disraelian sense in social policy, placing a high value on the principles of noblesse oblige, communitarianism, and One nation conservatism—and were thus seen as moderate (in the context of classical economic thought) in their economic policy. For most of their history they were trade protectionists, engaging in free-trade economics in only a limited fashion, as in Empire Free-Trade. Historically they comprised the largest bloc of the original Canadian Conservative party. Notable Red Tories include John Farthing, George Grant, John Diefenbaker, E. Davie Fulton, Robert Stanfield, Dufferin Roblin, Dalton Camp, W. L. Morton, George A. Drew, Leslie Frost, John Robarts, William Davis, Peter Lougheed, Joe Clark and Flora MacDonald.

Blue Tories, on the other hand, were originally members of the Tory elite drawn from the commercial classes in Montreal and Toronto. Prior to World War II, they were generally conservative in social policy, and classically liberal in economic policy. From 1964 on, this cadre came to identify more with neo-liberal influences in the US Republican Party, as espoused by Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, and the Thatcherite leadership in the British Conservative Party, as represented by Sir Keith Joseph and Margaret Thatcher. They have come to be termed—in the Canadian lexicon—as neoconservatives. However, there are also Blue Tories who identify strongly with the Monarchy in Canada and other traditional institutions. In Canada, Blue Tories include Ralph Klein and Mike Harris.

From 1891 until the party's dissolution, Red Tories generally dominated the highest rungs of the party and its leadership. The emerging neoconservatives of the 1970s were significantly reduced in numbers in the party by the late 1980s, and many of the disaffected drifted towards neoliberalism and parties with a neoconservative bent, such as the Reform Party of Canada. When the PC party held power at the federal level, it never truly embraced Reaganomics and its crusade against "big government" as vociferously as was done in the USA.

Canadian neoconservatives lean more towards individualism and economic liberalism. Support for the Canadian Alliance and its predecessor the Reform Party of Canada derived principally from this group, and that support carried forward into the new Conservative Party of Canada. The success of the neoconservative movement in using the label "Conservative" has brought into debate the very definition of conservatism in Canada today. Although adhering to economic philosophies similar to those originally advanced by 19th-century liberals (known confusingly as both neoliberalism and neoconservatism), the Canadian Alliance agreed to the name "Conservative Party of Canada" for the new party.

Progressive Conservative history
After a by-election defeat in 1942, a group of younger Conservatives from the Conservative Party of Canada met in Port Hope, Ontario, to develop a new Conservative policy they hoped would bring them out of the political wilderness. The participants, known as the Port Hopefuls, developed a program including many Conservative goals such as support for free enterprise and conscription. Yet the charter also included more radical policies, such as full-employment, low-cost housing, trade union rights, as well as a whole range of social security measures, including a government financed medicare system.

Although many Conservatives rejected the charter, the charter still influenced party decisions. Delegates at the convention drafted John Bracken as leader, who was not even a member of the party. Bracken supported the Port Hope Charter and insisted the party register this policy shift by changing its name to the Progressive Conservative Party.

In the early days of Canadian confederation, the party supported a mercantilist approach to economic development: export-led growth with high import barriers to protect local industry. The party was staunchly monarchist and supported playing a large role within the British Empire. It was seen by some French Canadians as supporting a policy of cultural assimilation.

The Conservative Party dominated Canadian politics for the nation's first 30 years. In general, Canada's political history has consisted of Tories alternating power with the Liberals, albeit often in minority governments supported by smaller parties.

After a long period of Liberal dominance following the Tories ill-fated depression era mandate from 1930 to 35, John Diefenbaker won a minority government in 1957, followed by a sweeping electoral victory for the Tories in 1958. Diefenbaker was able to win most of the parliamentary seats in Western Canada, much of those in Ontario, and, with the support of the Union Nationale provincial government, a large number in Quebec. Diefenbaker attempted to pursue a policy of distancing Canada from the United States. His cabinet split over Diefenbaker's refusal of American demands that Canada accept nuclear warheads for Bomarc missiles based in North Bay, Ontario, and La Macaza, Quebec. This split contributed to the Tory government's defeat at the hands of Lester B. Pearson's Liberals in the 1963 election.

Diefenbaker remained Progressive Conservative leader until 1967, when increasing unease at his erratic behaviour, authoritarian leadership, and perceived unelectability led party president Dalton Camp to call for and win a motion for a leadership review which resulted in the 1967 leadership convention where Nova Scotia Premier Robert Stanfield was elected out of a field of eleven candidates that included Diefenbaker and Manitoba Premier Duff Roblin. Despite being personally well-regarded, Stanfield struggled to make an impact against Pierre Trudeau, who became Prime Minister the following year. The 1972 election saw the party come within two seats of toppling the Liberal government, with their historical weakness in Quebec keeping them from victory, but a gaffe-ridden Tory campaign at the following election two years later saw the Liberals regain their parliamentary majority, leading to Stanfield's resignation.

Clark-Mulroney era

Joe Clark took the leadership of the Progressive Conservative Party in 1976. He came to power in the 1979 election, defeating the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau and ending sixteen years of continuous Liberal rule. Taking office the day before his 40th birthday, Clark is the youngest person to become prime minister. His tenure was brief as he only won a minority government, and it was defeated on a motion of non-confidence pertaining to his 1979 budget. Clark's Progressive Conservative Party lost the 1980 election and Clark lost the leadership of the party to Brian Mulroney in 1983.

In the late 1960s and 1970s, following Quebec's Quiet Revolution, the Progressive Conservatives recognized the need to increase their appeal to Canada's francophone population. At the same time, the Tories moved away from economic nationalism towards a neoliberal platform. Both movements culminated with Brian Mulroney becoming prime minister after the election of 1984. He led the Tories to a record 211 seats, and a majority of seats in every province.

Mulroney had declared himself an opponent to free trade with the United States during the 1983 leadership campaign. But a growing continentalist sentiment among Canadian business leaders and the impact of the "Reagan Revolution" on Canadian conservative thought led Mulroney to embrace free trade. His government endorsed the recommendation of the 1985 Royal Commission on the Economic Union and Development Prospects for Canada that Canada pursue a free trade deal with the United States.

Traditionally, it had been the Liberal Party that held a position of continentalism and the Conservatives who had opposed free trade with the United States in favour of economic links with the United Kingdom. With the dissolution of the British Empire and the economic nationalism of the Liberal Party under Pierre Trudeau, the traditional positions of the two parties became reversed. It was with this background that Mulroney fought and won the 1988 election on the issue of the Canada–United States Free Trade Agreement.

Mulroney also made a promise to Quebecers, claiming that he would reform the Canadian Constitution so that Quebec would be willing to endorse the revised Constitution, which it did not in 1982, unlike Canada's other provinces. To do this, Mulroney promised that he would give Quebec distinct society status within a federal Canada with greater autonomy. This helped Mulroney garner substantial support from Quebec nationalists including Lucien Bouchard who joined the Conservatives claiming that providing Quebec with autonomy would be acceptable for Quebec to remain within Canada.

Although the Progressive Conservative Party switched to neoliberalism, the party did retain its social progressive policies unlike other parties which advocated neoliberalism. Mulroney and the government pursued an aggressive environmental agenda under the aide of then-environmental policy advisor, present-day Green Party leader Elizabeth May. Mulroney and members of the U.S. government sparred over action on acid rain. In the end Mulroney managed to convince U.S. president Ronald Reagan to sign a treaty to reduce acid rain.

A number of economic and governance issues contributed to the fall of the Progressive Conservative party at the federal level in the 1993 federal election:
 * Canada suffered its worst recession since the Second World War,
 * Unemployment rose to the highest levels since the Great Depression,
 * The federal government faced high and persistent deficits, and
 * The Tories had introduced a much-hated new tax, the Goods and Services Tax.
 * Extensive government corruption and accusations of corruption and government mismanagement were in the news, such as the Airbus affair and evidence showing Canadian peacekeepers maltreating Somalis, which resulted in the Somalia inquiry.
 * During the election campaign the Tories used an attack ad against Liberal leader Jean Chrétien, which appeared to mock his odd facial expressions—which were the result of Bell's palsy—and suggest he was unfit for the post of prime minister because of them.

The second major factor leading to the Mulroney government's demise was that the party's base in Quebec came from Quebec nationalists, who withdrew their support after the failure of the Meech Lake and Charlottetown Constitutional Accords. Many Quebec Tories, including a number of Members of Parliament (MPs), left the party to form the Bloc Québécois with like-minded Liberals.

The third major factor was the rise of "western alienation" in the four provinces of western Canada as a result of attempts by both Tories and Liberals to woo Quebec. Western Canadians turned their support to the Reform Party of Canada and later to its successor, the Canadian Alliance. Poor by-election results in Beaver River, Chambly, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, Oshawa and York North solidified the PC decline.

Post-Mulroney era and decline

Following Mulroney's resignation, his successor as Tory leader and as prime minister was Kim Campbell, who led the party into the disastrous election of 1993. The Progressive Conservatives went from being the majority party to holding only two seats in the House of Commons, which was not enough to maintain official party status despite garnering 16% of the popular vote. It was the worst defeat ever suffered for a governing party at the federal level; the 151-seat loss far exceeded the 95 seats lost by the Liberals in 1984. The party's western supporters transferred virtually en masse to Reform, most of its Quebec supporters split between the sovereigntist Bloc Québécois and the Liberals, and most of its Ontario and Atlantic supporters bolted for the Liberals. Even though the Progressive Conservatives finished third in the popular vote (just percentage points behind Reform), their support was spread out across the entire country and was not concentrated in enough areas to translate into more seats. By contrast, the Bloc managed to capture Official Opposition status with 54 seats despite running candidates only in Quebec, while Reform finished third in the seat count despite being virtually nonexistent east of Manitoba.

Campbell herself was defeated, as was every member of the Cabinet except Jean Charest, whom Campbell had defeated in the election to succeed Mulroney. Campbell resigned as party leader in December, and Charest, as the only remaining member of the previous Cabinet, was quickly appointed interim leader and confirmed in the post in 1995. Charest led the party back to official party status in the 1997 election, winning 20 seats. With the exception of one seat each in Ontario and Manitoba, the rest of the seats were all in the Maritimes and Quebec. However, the PCs never won more than 20 seats again, and only two west of Quebec (not counting by-elections and switches from other parties).

Merger with Alliance
The rise of the Reform Party/Canadian Alliance was doubtless damaging to the Tories, though there remains some debate as to the precise degree. Many observers argue that for over ten years, from 1993 to 2004, the "conservative" vote was split between the two parties, allowing Liberal candidates to win ridings that were previously considered safe for the Tories, made possible by a first-past-the-post electoral system. This assessment led to the growth of the United Alternative movements of the late 1990s. Others insisted that a legitimate ideological gulf existed between the more ideological Alliance and the more moderate Red Tory-influenced PC Party, pointing to surveys that indicated many Tory voters would rather select the Liberals as their second choice than the Alliance. This seemed to be particularly born out in Ontario. The Liberals won all but one seat in that province in 1993 and 1997, and all but two in 2000—an era that was dominated by the provincial Tories. This was largely because many former bellwether ridings in suburban Toronto (known as "the 905", after its area code) turned almost solidly Liberal for most of the 1990s at the federal level while supporting the Tories at the provincial level.

Charest stepped down from the leadership in 1998 to become leader of the Quebec Liberal Party. Former leader Joe Clark returned to the post in a vote in which all party members were eligible to cast ballots, instead of a traditional leadership convention. A point system allocated each riding 100 points to be distributed among the candidates by proportional representation according to votes cast by party members in the riding. (This same system was used by the Conservative Party of Canada in 2004.) In the 2000 election Clark was able to garner the 12 seats necessary for official party status, but no more.

Clark realized that as long as the centre-right vote was divided, there was no chance of dislodging the Liberals, but he wanted a merger on his own terms. He got his chance in 2001, when several dissident Alliance MPs, the most prominent one being Alliance deputy leader and party matriarch Deborah Grey, left the Alliance caucus. The dissidents felt that Alliance leader Stockwell Day hadn't learned from mistakes made in the last election. While some of them rejoined the Alliance later, seven of them, led by Chuck Strahl of British Columbia and including Grey, refused and formed the Democratic Representative Caucus. The DRC quickly entered a coalition with the Progressive Conservatives, which lasted until 2002 when Stephen Harper ousted Day as Alliance leader. Harper wanted a closer union with the PCs, but Clark turned the offer down, and all but two of the DRC members rejoined the Alliance. One of the two, Inky Mark, eventually joined the PCs. Two by-election victories later in 2002 increased the PC caucus to 15 members and fourth place in the Commons. Clark, however, was unable to gain any ground in Ontario, and resigned on August 6, 2002.

On May 31, 2003, Peter MacKay won the party leadership after securing the endorsement of controversial fellow leadership candidate David Orchard, an outspoken opponent of free trade who wanted to return the party to its traditional economic nationalist roots. Orchard's endorsement of MacKay was predicated on four bullet points laid out in the Orchard-MacKay agreement, one of which expressly forbade the merger of the PC Party of Canada with the Canadian Alliance. After only a few months as party leader though, MacKay reneged on his promise and proceeded to negotiate a merger with the Alliance, which he announced had occurred on October 15, 2003. The two parties, it seemed, united to form a new party called the Conservative Party of Canada. The union was ratified on December 5 and 6 in a process conducted by each of the parties, and the new Conservative Party was formally registered on December 7. The merger prompted Clark to remark, "Some equate it to a death in the family. I regard it rather as a death of the family." On March 20, 2004, former Alliance leader Harper was elected leader of the new party and appointed MacKay as his deputy.

House of Commons
Following the merger, a rump Progressive Conservative caucus remained in Parliament, consisting of individuals who declined to join the new Conservative Party. In the House of Commons, Joe Clark, André Bachand and John Herron sat as PC members. Outisde of Parliament, former leader Brian Mulroney joined the newly formed Conservative Party. In the 2004 election, Bachand and Clark did not run for re-election, and Herron ran as a Liberal, losing to Rob Moore in his riding of Fundy—Royal. Scott Brison, who had joined the Liberal caucus immediately upon departing the Conservative Party, was reelected as a Liberal in the 2004 election. After being expelled from the Conservative Party caucus in June 2007, Nova Scotia MP Bill Casey designated himself as an "Independent Progressive Conservative".

Senate
In the Senate, William Doody, Lowell Murray and Norman Atkins also declined to join the new party, and continued to sit as Progressive Conservative senators. On March 24, 2005, Prime Minister Paul Martin appointed nine new senators, two of whom, Nancy Ruth and Elaine McCoy, were designated as Progressive Conservatives. Ruth subsequently left to sit with the Conservative Party. The death of Senator Doody on December 27, 2005, and the mandatory retirement of Norman Atkins on June 27, 2009, and Lowell Murray on September 26, 2011, left McCoy, the youngest of the five, as the sole Progressive Conservative in the Senate and the last sitting PC in either chamber of Parliament until February 11, 2013, when she chose to change her designation to "Independent Progressive Conservative". McCoy changed her designation to "Independent" on February 17, 2016, thus bringing to an end the presence of Progressive Conservatives in the Parliament of Canada.

Progressive Canadian Party
On January 9, 2004, a group claiming to be loyal to the Progressive Conservative Party and opposed to the merger, which they characterized as an Alliance takeover, filed application with the Chief Electoral Officer to register a party called the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada. The application was refused on the grounds that the name could no longer be utilized. The group resubmitted with the name Progressive Canadian Party, and a new "PC Party" was recognized by Elections Canada on March 26. It secured sufficient backing to be registered as an official party on May 29. It was led by former Progressive Conservative MP Joe Hueglin of Ontario.

The Progressive Canadian party aimed to be perceived as the successor party to the Progressive Conservatives. However, it did not enjoy broad support among former Progressive Conservatives. In particular, no prominent anti-merger Progressive Conservatives such as Joe Clark or David Orchard were associated with the Progressive Canadian Party, nor were any sitting MPs or senators. The most prominent members to join were two 1970s and 1980s era politicians: former cabinet minister Sinclair Stevens and former junior cabinet minister, Heward Grafftey, who polled near or below Craig Chandler in the final PC Party leadership race. It was deregistered by Elections Canada in late 2019.

Party presidents

 * James Macdonnell (1946–1950)
 * George Nowlan (1950–1954)
 * George Hees (1954–1956)
 * Allister Grosart (1956–1963)
 * Egan Chambers (1963–1964)
 * Dalton Camp (1964–1969)
 * Frank Moores (1969–1970)
 * Nathan Nurgitz (1970–1971)
 * Donald J. Matthews (1971–1974)
 * Michael Meighen (1974–1977)
 * Robert C. Coates (1977–1981)
 * Peter Blaikie (1981–1983)
 * Peter Elzinga (1983–1986)
 * William H. Jarvis (1986–1989)
 * Gerry St. Germain (1989–1995)
 * Peter Van Loan (1999–2000)
 * Jacques Leger (2000–2001)
 * Bruck Easton (2001–2003)


text:
Talk:Timbre

Cleaning Up
I tried to clean the article a bit up and organize it in a structured form, in order to make it more simple to work on it. I did not incluse Psycho accustica, not because it should not be in, but because it was not well enough explained to be usefull. Please Put it back in when you have the relevant knowledge.

Please take this stuctur, expand it and work on the article.

--Taghawi-Nejad 15:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The following was the original revision of this page. I daresay some of it is useful for writing an article with, but it sure ain't an article in itself. Much of this seems to be saying the same thing, and some of it is probably more closely related to psychoacoustics. To be honest, I'm not sure what there is to say about the subject beyond what we have now, though I imagine we could whitter on about overtones for a bit, and try to explain words like "warm" and "rich". Or, as it says below: "clearly...timbre is determined by the absolute frequency position of the spectral envelope rather than by the position of the spectral envelope relative to the fundamental". Clearly... --Camembert

Article structure
Shouldn't "In music" (or most of its content) be under "Attributes"? -Pgan002 20:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is there a separate section fot the ASA definition? It should be a paragraph under the intro. -Pgan002 20:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Timbre is a wastebasket covering many things - I would certainly say so! I normally prefer a good verbal description over a mathematical expression, but here I have found an exception. A sound wave is a physical phenomena, so can anyone give a mathematical definition of timbre? _

______ I also found the organization of the article odd. Given that it is extremely rare to hear a discussion of timbre outside of musical contexts, it is strange that the article has a separate section for "in music," as if it's just one of many places where timbre is relevant. One could discuss the differences in timbre between two models of jet engines (there is substantial difference), but I doubt that conversation occurs often. Why not, in that case, completely rewrite or reorganize the article so that timbre is treated as a central concept in music theory as well as psycho-acoustics?

There also seems to me a bit of a hesitation to discuss actual examples. Where a somewhat ethereal concept like timbre is concerned, this will likely leave the reader scratching his/her head. The initial discussion of the sax vs the trumpet is a good one. Maybe expand that? After all, the general reading public will be able to relate to such examples, and in a world where even people with no interest in classical music know what a "stradavarius" is, it's perhaps worth noting that the violin is prized for its timbre. Likewise, someone familiar with popular music will likely be able to distinguish the differences in timbre that characterize the Les Paul and Stratocaster guitars. In that regard, maybe a more explicit contrast with other elements of sound, such as pitch (which is treated in somewhat sterile terms in this article, having been reduced to 440hz, something that will be unfamiliar to most readers) would be useful. After all, there is an entire industry devoted to designing and marketing devices that will alter the timbre of a guitar or voice. C d h 21:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

SUMMARIZE ME!
NOTE: Timbre depends primarily upon the spectrum of the stimulus, but it also depends upon the waveform, the sound pressure, the frequency location of the spectrum, and the temporal characteristics of the stimulus." (ANSI, 1960, p. 45; also in ANSI, 1973) Schouten (1968) The five parameters are "1. The range between tonal and noiselike character, 2. The spectral envelope, 3. The time envelope in terms of rise, duration and decay, 4. The change both of spectral envelope (formant glide) or fundamental frequency micro-intonation), 5. The prefix, an onset of a sound quite dissimilar to the ensuing lasting vibration." (p. 42) Grey (1975) Hajda, Kendall and Carterette (1997) Plomp (1976)
 * 1) Helmholtz (1877)
 * 2) "When we hear notes of the same force and same pitch sounded successively on a piano-forte, a violin, clarinet, oboe, or trumpet, or by the human voice, the character of the musical tone of each of these instruments, notwithstanding the identify of force and pitch, is so different that by means of it we recognise with the greatest of ease which of these instruments was used." (p. 19)
 * 3) "...the amplitude of the vibration determines the force or loudness, and the period of vibration the pitch. Quality of tone can therefore depend upon neither of these. The only possible hypothesis, therefore, is that the quality of tone should depend upon the manner in which the motion is performed within the period of each single vibration." (p. 19)
 * 4) "...to what extent can the differences of musical quality be reduced to the combination of different partial tones with different intensities in different musical tones?" (p. 65) "There has been a general inclination to credit quality with all possible peculiarities of musical tones that were not evidently due to force and pitch. This was correct to the extent that quality of tone was merely a negative conception. But very slight consideration will siffice to shew that many of these peculiarities of musical tones depend upon the way in which they begin and end. . . . differences in the quality of tone of struck strings...partly depends on the rapidity with which the tone dies away." (p. 66) "When we speak in what follows of musical quality of tone, we shall disregard these peculiarities of beginning and ending, and confine our attention to the peculiarities of the musical tone which continues uniformly. But even when a musical tone copntinues with uniform or variable intensity, it is mixed up, in the general methods of excitement, with certain noises, which express greater or less irregularities in the motion of the air." (p. 67) "Such accompanying noises and little inequalities in the motion of the air, furnish much that is characteristic in the tones of musical instruments... Notwithstanding the absence of these noises, it is generally possible to discriminate the different musical instruments, although it must be acknowledged that under such circumstances the tone of a French horn may be occasionally mistaken for that of the singing voice, or a violoncello may be confused with an harmonium. . . . In the present chapter we shall at first disregard all irregular portions of the motion of the air, and the mode in which sounds commence or terminate, directing our attention solely to the musical part of the tone, properly so called, which corresponds to a uniformly sustained and regularly period motion of the air..." (p. 68)
 * 5) "...differences in musical quality of tone depend solely on the presence and strength of partial tones, and in no respect on the differences in phase under which these partial tones enter into composition. It must be here observed that we are speaking only of musical quality as previously defined." (p. 127)
 * 6) Fletcher (1934)
 * 7) Textbooks customarily believe that loudness, pitch and timbre correlate directly with sound intensity, fundamental frequency and overtone structure..."but these experiments show that a simple one-to-one relationship does not exist." (p. 59)
 * 8) One might define timbre as "that characteristic of sensation which enables the listeners to recognize the kind of musical instrumnet producing the tone, that is, whether it is a cornet, a flute or a violin." (p. 67)
 * 9) "...changes in loudness or pitch, without in any way changing the overtone structures, will also produce changes in timbre." (p. 68)
 * 10) "...timbre depends principally upon the overtone structure, but large changes in the intensity and the frequency also produce changes in the timbre." (p. 68)
 * 11) Seashore (1938)
 * 12) "Tone quality has two fundamental asepcts, namely, (1) timbre, which is the simultaneous presence or fusion of the fundamental and its overtones at a given moment, and (2) sonance, the successive presence or fusion of changing timbre, pitch, and intensity in a tone as a whole. The first may be called simultaneous fusion; the second, successive. Each of these may be reduced to the constituent factors which are recordable and measurable and, from the physical point of view, represent the structure of the tone." (p. 95)
 * 13) "In general, we may say that, aside from accessory noises and inharmonic elements, the timbre of a tone depdns upon (1) the number of harmonic partials present, (2) the relative location or locations of these partials in the range from the lowest to the highest, and (3) the relative strength or dominance of each partial." (pp. 96-97)
 * 14) ". . . we obtain a definition of timbre as follows: Timbre is that characteristic of a tone which depends uopn its harmonic structure as modified by absolute pitch and total intensity. . . .we must also take phase relations into account. Physically the timbre of the tone is a cross section of the tone quality for the moment represented by the duration of one vibration in the sound." (p. 97)
 * 15) Definition of sonance: he first observes that when viewing a movie of any moving object, although we are being presented a series of discrete snapshots of the object appearing stationary, our experience is of actual motion of the object, because the successive snapshots fuse. "The same principle of fusion appears in hearing. In tonal hearing, successive waves come so fast that they cannot be heard as individual waves; that is, we cannot separate the timbre or the pitch or the intensity in one wave from that in the next wave by hearing. The result is that they fuse and for a given period of time, the mean period of clear perception, we hear a resultant pitch, intensity, or timbre which tends to be an average for what is represented in the series of waves that can be grasped in one moment of perception. The timbre of a tone corresponds to the single instantaneous picture; sonance correponds to the picture progression." (pp. 103-104)
 * 16) Wood (19??)
 * 17) "Musical 'Quality'.--If a note of a given pitch is played successively on two different musical instruments, and played with exactly the same loudness, we can distinguish between the two sounds and refer each to its appropriate instrument. The basis of this judgment is the 'quality' of the sound. The piano, the violin, the voice, the flute &c., each has its own characteristic 'quality'. The German word for it is 'klangfarbe', the French word (frequently borrowed in English) is 'timbre'. But quality not only enables us to distinguish between two notes produced on different kinds of instruments, it also enables us to distinguish between two notes produced on two different instruments of the same kind. What distinguishes the voice of one singer from that of another and is characteristic of an individual voice is its quality." (p. 61)
 * 18) Licklider (1951)
 * 19) "The timbre of a complex sound has usually been defined as the subjective quality that depends upon the complexity or overtone structure of the physical sound. We have seen, however, that both the ludness and the pitch of a complex tone are influenced to some extent by its overtone structure. We must, therefore, not fall back upon the ill-defined notion that timbre has to do with the distribution or pattern of pitch and loudness in the total sensation Until careful scientific work has been done on the subject, it can hardly be possible to say more about timbre than that it is a 'multidimensional' dimension." (p. 1019)
 * 20) Ellis (1954)
 * 21) Alexander Ellis, translator of Helmholtz's On the Sensations of Tone, struggled with the decision of translating Helmholtz's word Klangfarbe: "I can find no valid reason for supplanting the time-honoured expression quality of tone. Prof. Tyndall quotes Dr. Young to the effect that 'this qulaity of sound is sometimes called its register, colour, or timbre.' Register has a distinct meaning in vocal music which must not be disturbed. Timbre, properly a kettledrum, then a helmet, then the coat of arms surmounted with a helment, then the official stamp bearing that coat of arms (now used in France for a postage label), and then the mark which decalred a thing to be what it pretends to be, Brun's 'Guinea's stamp', is a foreign word, often odiously mispronounced, and not worth preserving. Colour I have never met with as applied to music, except at most as a passing metaphorical expression. But the difference of tones in quality is familiar to our language." (p. 24, footnote)
 * 22) ANSI (1960)
 * 23) "12.9 Timbre. Timbre is that attribute of auditory sensation in terms of which a listener can judge that two sounds similarly presented and having the same loudness and pitch are dissimilar.
 * 1) Levarie and Levy (1968)
 * 2) "When a violin and oboe, ofr instance, play the same pitch with the loudness, we can yet distinguish the two tones by their timbre. This property is often alled the 'tone quality' or the 'tone color.' We advocate ignoring these names, because they tend to create confusion. Tone 'quality' is too general, for logically pitch and loudness are also qualities. Tone 'color' is an optical term which is out of place in acoustics." (p. 63)
 * 3) "...the indirect bearing of loudness on timbre. For as the loudness of a tone increases, overtones are aroused that may have been negligable before; and as it wanes, some overtones are dampened and lost before others. The result is a change of timbre concomitant with a change in loudness." (pp. 63-64)
 * 4) "The point need not be belabored that the smallest change in any agent participating in the creation of a tone...evokes a change in the actually sounding overtone series and hence a corresponding modification of the total timbre. . . . Any change of pressure or position necessairly brings about a fresh overtone constellation; and if a new pitch or a new degree of loudness is the primary purpose of such a change, timbre can justifiably be thought of as an attribute that perpetually characterizes the other properties of a tone. The singer Luisa Tetrazzini claimed that every pitch has its appropriate 'natural' timbre, and many wind players would agree." (p. 137)
 * 1) "When describing a sound as it presents itself to us in auditory perception we are able to characterize it by various percepual attributes. It may sound loud or weak, high or low, long or short. These attributes: loudness, pitch and duration are the easiest to ascertain in the overall impression of any sound. For all other qualities we have scarcely more at our disposal than the one and all embracing term: timbre. A very vague way of brining all other unresolved attributes under one general heading. This is an extremely disappointing state of affairs. The tone of the violin, for instance, may sound [xerox copy disfigures one or two words here] and long. But these easily perceptible attributes are the very ones which are the least invariant with respect to the particular sound of a violin. The vague heading "timbre", though, is precisely the one which covers those invariant acoustic properties which make us recognize the violin." (p. 35)
 * 2) "In most textbooks timbre is defined as the overtone structure or the envelope of the spectrum of the physical sound. This definition is hopelessly insufficient, as I hope to prove by demonstrating that timbre can be expressed in terms of at least five major parameters . . . " (p. 38)
 * 1) Risset and Mathews (1969)
 * 2) They cite the generally accepted definition of timbre as "the attribute that enables the listener to identify the instrument producing the tone." (p. 23)
 * 3) Plomp (1970)
 * 4) He refines the ASA definition to "that attribute of sensation in terms of which a listener can judge that two steady complex tones having the same loudness, pitch and duration are dissimilar." (p. 398)
 * 5) Schouten's comments after Plomp: "We can play a violin at different loudnesses, different durations and different pitches, but it is always a violin. We say, well, that is its timbre. But this includes many aspects..." (p. 411) He lists harmonic sounds, noiselike sounds, contributions of the time envelope, the way the onset differs from the rest of the tone, etc. Plomp agrees that we need more carefully defined words, and using timbre to count for all of this is problematic.
 * 6) Erickson (1975)
 * 7) "Clearly timbre is a multidimensional stimulus: it cannot be correlated with any single physical dimension." (p. 4)
 * 8) "TIMBRE OR TONE COLOR? The word or phrase we use as a handy reference is much less important than the idea to which it refers. I generally use the term "timbre" but often use "tone color" in the same sense. Neither term is very satisfactory, nor is "tone quality" much of an improvement." (pp. 6-7)
 * 9) "Objections may be raise that musical timbre should be equated with the quality of the speaking voice rather than with the individual speech sounds; that it is the 'clarinet quality' rather than the individual sounds which is significant, and that the overall 'clarinet quality' corresponds to the quality of a speaker's voice. I do not mean to exclude this aspect of timbre. But overall 'clarinet quality' can be shown to have no clear-cut one-to-one relationship to the acoustical signal either! We can no more synthexize a clarinet from a single description of the signal than we can synthesize all the ah sounds we use in speech from a single acoustical recipe. Analysis of the gamut of clarinet tones might lead one the say that it is three instuments, rather than one!" (p. 3)
 * 10) In the section called "Timbre as Carrier": "The chief function of timbre in most Western concert music of the past has been that of carrier of melodic functions. The differences of timbre at different pitches and in different registers of instruments . . . have been treated as nuances." (p. 12) The contrast is the use of timbre as objects, where these differences are highlighted as much as possible (esp. by using disjunct melodic lines that prevent the listener from hearing timbre regularity).
 * 1) "Timbre may refer to the features of tone which serve to identify that a musical sound originates from some particular instrument or family of instruments, for example, that it is an oboe, or perhaps some sort of double-reed instrument, or maybe just some woodwind instrument." (p. 1)
 * 1) "Based on research findings and [previous] definitions... it is clear that timbre has two principle constituents: (1) It 'conveys the identity of the instrument that produced it' (Butler, 1992, p. 238), and (2) It is representable by a palette or family of palettes (see Martens, 1985) in which tones from different sources can be related along perceptual dimensions. The first constituent is nominal or categorical in nature: the clarinet has a characteristic to its sound, regardless of the pitch, loudness, etc. The second constituent is a hybrid of categorical and ordinal organisation [sic]: the clarinet is not nasal and is therefore differentiated from the oboe, which is nasal. On the other hand, the clarinet has attributes which make it unique." (p. 302)
 * 2) Roederer (1975)
 * 3) "Timbre perception is, however, just a first stage of the operation of tone source recognition---in music, the identification of the instrument. From this point of view, tone quality perception is the mechanism by means of which information is extracted from the auditory signal in such a way as to make it suitable for: (1) storage in the memory with an adequate label of identification, and (2) comparison with previously stored and identified information. The first operation involves learning or conditioning. A child who learns to recognize a given musical instrument is presented repeatedly with a melody played on that instrmuent and told: 'This is a clarinet.' His brain extracts suitable information from the succession of auditory stimuli, labels this information with the qualification 'clarinet' and stores it in the memory. The second operation represents the conditioned response to a leanred pattern: When the child hears a clarinet play after the learning experience, his brain compares the information extracted from the incoming signal (i.e. the timbre) with stored cues, and, if a successful match is found, conveys the response: 'a clarinet.' On the other hand, if we listen to a 'new' sound, e.g., a series of tones concocted with an electronic synthesizer, our information-extracting system will feed the cures into the matching mechanism, which will then try desperately to compare the input with previously stored information. If this matching process is unsuccessful, a new storage 'file' will eventually be opened up for this new, now identified, sound quality. If the process is only partly successful, we react with such judgments as 'almost like a clainet' or 'like a barking trombone.'" (pp. 138-139)
 * 1) "...harmonics lmanifext themselves in the specific quality or timbre of the complex tone. . . . Timbre is multidimensional. ...we do not have a unidimensional scale for comparing the timbres of various sounds. The singular character of timbre become particularly apparent in the dictionary definition of timbre as 'the characteristic quality of sound that distinguishes one voice or musical instrumnet from another or one vowel sound from another' (Webster). In this broad sense, timbre depends upon several parameters of the sound including the spectral envelope and its change in time, periodic fluctuations of the amlitude or the fundamental frequency, and whether the sound is a tone or noise" (p. 85)
 * 2) Since we are dealing here exclusively with steady-state periodic sounds, timbre, too, will be considered in its most narrow sense as 'that attribute of auditory sensation in terms of which a listener can judge that two steady-state complex tones having the same loudness and pitch, are dissimilar'." (pp. 85-86)
 * 3) "The broad definition of the dictionary and the restricted one just given have one common characteristic: bothe are virtually negative descriptions. They stat that timbre is neighter loudness nor pitch but say no more than that. This definitional vagueness is related to the multidimensionality of the attribute. The tone of a trumpet, containing many strong harmonics, sounds much brighter than a simple tone, but a bright-dull scale oes not suffice for describing the diversity of auditory sensations of various complex tones. As early as 1890, Stumpf listed no less than 20 relevant semantic scales as wide-narrow, smooth-rough, round-sharp, etc., comcluding that this wealth of adjectives is comparable only with those used by wine merchants for extolling their products." (p. 86)
 * 4) "...the ear is not as 'phase deaf' as had been suggested by earlier investigators." (p. 88) "...we may conclude that the effect on timbre of varying the phase spectrum of a complex tone is small compared with the effect of varying the amplitude spectrum." (p. 91)
 * 5) "...reverberation has...a substantial blurring effect on...timbres... Similarly, it can be shown that the spectral differences between the same vowel sounds produced by different speakers are not much larger than the differences introduced by reverberation." (p. 101)
 * 6) "...what is the effect on timbre if we vary the fundamental frequency, f0, of the stimulus? . . . [it] will depnd upon whether timbre is determined by the spectral envelope relative to f0 or by the absolute frequency position of the spectral envelope irrespective of f0. . . . ...a necessary condition for similarity of timbre for sounds with different fundamental frequencies is that they have similar spectral envelopes in terms of absolute frequency though this similarity will necessarily be less for greater differences of fundamental frequency." (p. 107)
 * 7) "clearly...timbre is determined by the absolute frequency position of the spectral envelope rather than by the position of the spectral envelope relative to the fundamental. . . . [Bismarck] found that sharpness as the major attribute of timbre is primarily related to the position of the loudness centre on an absolute frequency scale rather than to a particular shape of the spectral envelope. . . . The dependence of timbre upon frequency would imply that simple tones [sine waves] are also characterized by a specific timbre, to be distinguished from their pitch. Low frequency tones do indeed sound dull and high-frequency tones sharp... The observation that simple tones have some resemblance, depending upon their frequency, with particular vowles also supports this view. Subjects appear to be able to label simple tones rather well in terms of vowels... This resemblance is related to the frequency of the most characteristic formant or combination of formants." (p. 110)
 * 8) "The conclusion that sounds with different pitch sound most similar if their spectral envleops correspond does not imply that no perceptual differences remain aprat from pitch. The same vowel pronounced by a male and a female speaker wtill sounds quite different. . . . ...the spacing of the harmonics, determined by the fundamental frequency, is responsible for the timbre dissimilarity of sounds with different pitch but similar spectral envelopes." (p. 110)
 * 9) Pratt and Doak (1976)
 * 10) "Timbre is that attribute of auditory sensation wherby a listener can judge that two sounds are dissimilar using any criteria other than pitch, loudness or duration."
 * 11) Rasch and Plomp (1982)
 * 12) "Timbre is, after pitch and loudness, the third attribute of the subjective experience of musical tones. Subjectively, timbre is often coded as the function of the sound source or of the meaning of the sound. We talk about the timbre of certain musical instruments, of vowels, and of sounds that signify certain events in our environment (apparatus, sounds from nautre, footsteps, the slapping of a door, etc.)." (p. 12)
 * 13) "In a restricted sense timbre may be considered the subjective counterpart of the spectral composition of tones. Especially important is the reltive amplitude of the harmonics. . . . Recent research has shown that temporal characteristics of the tones may have a profound influence on timbre as well, which has led to a broadening of the concept of timbre... Both onset effrects (rise time, presence of noise or inharmonic partials during onset, unequal rise of partials, characteristic shape of rise curve, etc.) and steady state effects (vibrato, amplitude modulation, gradual swelling, pitch instability, etc.) are important factors in the recognition and, therefore, in the timbre of tones." (pp. 13-14)
 * 14) "Sounds cannot be ordered on a single scale with respect to timbre. Timbre is a multidimensional attribute of the perception of sounds." (p. 14)
 * 15) Slawson (1985)
 * 16) He chooses to dispense with the word timbre altogether, since the classical definition is inadequate, yet widely accepted (p. 19)
 * 17) A theory of sound color should be able "to specify how to preserve color under changes in the loudness or the duration of a sound. We would like to know how to change pitch without changing sound color. Moreover, if sound color itself is a complex phenomenon made up a several different aspects or dimensions, we must show how one aspect of color can be held invariant as other aspects are varies." (p. 17)
 * 18) "There is no agreement, however, about what constitutes an element of sound color. Is sound color to be associated with a specific musical instrument, say, a particular Stradavarius violin? . . . Or should the sound of all instruments of the same type be taken as the basic element of color? When the violin, any violin, is said to have a different 'instrumental color' from the oboe, we are using the term that way." (p. 15)
 * 19) Dowling & Harwood (1986)
 * 20) "Timbre (or tone color) . . . refers to the differences of sound quality among various musical instruments, as well as among the various syllables of speech (hah vs. goo, for example). Sound vary in timbre along several dimensions, just as the syllables pah, poh, tah and toh differ on at least two dimensions. . . . timbre distinctions for speech sounds are fundamentally the same as those required for musical sounds." (p. 5)
 * 21) "Timbre has always been the miscellaneous category for describing the psychological attributes of sound, gathering into one bundle whatever was left over after pitch, loudness, and duration had been accounted for. Unlike the psychophysical realtionships involved in the latter categories, which are relatively straightforward, the relationship underlying timbre are complex and multidimensional . . . The psychological attributes lusterd under the heading timbre fall along more than one psychological dimension; that is, sounds do not simply differ in how much timbre they have. And there are several physical dimensions whose variation causes changes in timbre that interact with each other in complex ways." (p. 63)
 * 22) Houtsma (1989)
 * 23) Interpretation of the ANSI (1960) definition: "According to this definition, timbre is the subjective correlate of all those sound properties that do not directly influence pitch or loudness. These properties include the sound's spectral power distribution, its temporal envelope . . . rate and depth of amplitude or frequency modulation, and the dregree of inharmonicity of its partials. The timbre of a sound therefore depends on many physical variables." (p. 157)
 * 24) Krumhansl (1989)
 * 25) Problems in the definition of timbre:
 * 26) 1. "the complexity of acoustic measurements" (p. 43) which usually consists of "taking the form of spectral energy distributions and amplitude envelopes. These descriptions, however, are so complex that it is difficult to isolate characterisitcs that distinguish between timbres." (p. 44)
 * 27) 2. "the assumed independence of timbre from other dimensions of musical sound" (p. 43) "Can we really assume the differences in spectral energy distributions are completly uncoupled from pitch perception mechanisms in hearing?" (p. 44)
 * 28) 3. "generalizing the notion of timbre beyond the set of traditional orchestral instruments"
 * 29) Different levels of timbral descrition:
 * 30) 1. "the expressive variations available to performing musicians" (45)
 * 31) 2. "commonalities shared by all oboe tones, all bowed violin tones, all timpani tones, and so on" (45)
 * 32) 3. Broader family distinctions or method-of-production distinctions: "percussive insruments, whose behavior is determined completely at the instant when they are set into motion, and instruments, such as blown and bowed instruments, whose behavior is controlled continuously." (45)
 * 33) Alternative set of distinctions for describing sound (viz. Schaeffer, McAdams):
 * 34) 1. "varying degreees of temporal extent or musical complexity. . . . single, discrete sound events that are heard as being produced by a single source." (45)
 * 35) 2. "emergent properties, such as texture, density, streams, and musical gestures." (45)
 * 36) 3. "larger-scale musical forms or organizations that grow out of the sound material." (45)
 * 37) Bregman (1990)
 * 38) On the ASA definition: "This is, of course, no definition at all. For example, it implies that there are some sounds for which we cannot decide whether they possess the quality of timbre or not. In order for the definition to apply, two sounds need to be able to be presented at the same pitch, but there are some sounds, such as the scarping of a shovel in a pile of gravel, that have no pitch at all. We obviously have a problem: Either we must assert that only sounds with pitch can have timbre, meaning that we cannot discuss the timbre of a tambourine or of the musical sounds of many African cultures, or there is something terribly wrong with the definition." (p. 92)
 * 39) He points out that part of the problem may stem from the fact that pitch and loudness are controlled in musical instruments in straightforward, consistent ways, but timbre is not. The methods of varying timbre "vary from instrument to instrument. . . . When we do find a characteristic of sound that can be obtained on different instruments, such as vibrato, the characteristic tends to be given a label and no longer falls into the nameless wastebasket of 'timbre'." (p. 93)
 * 40) His requirements for a vocabulary for timbre include having labels for salient dimensions that should (1) "act in psychologically simple ways" and should "have straightforward physical definitions." (pp. 93-94) However, he also says: "Until such time as the dimensions of timbre are clarified perhaps it is better to drop the term timbre" (p. 94)
 * 41) Rossing (1990)
 * 42) His table 5.1, "Dependence of subjective qualities of sound on physical parameters" lists timbre as being weakly dependent on pressure and duration, moderately dependent on frequency and envelope, and strongly dependent on spectrum. (p. 80)
 * 43) Comment on the ANSI (1960) definition: "This definition suggests that judgment of timbre must take place under conditions of equal loudness and pitch (and probably equal duration as well)." (p. 125)
 * 44) "Timbre or tone quality depends on the frequency of a tone, its time envelope, its duration, and the sound level at which it is heard. . . . Under most conditions, the timbre of a complex sound is insensitive to the phase of its components." (p. 137)
 * 45) Cho, Hall and Pastore (1993)
 * 46) "Normalization is a type of perceptual constancy that can be loosely defined as the process by which the perceptual system adjusts for differences between sources in order to preserve an intended perceptual message." (p. 3) "Timbre is the subjective attribute of source (instrument) that is based on invariant properties that uniquely characterize the tones produced by the source. Unfortunately, the pursuit of an adequate definition of timbre is both related to and dependent upon extablishing which characteristics (or combination of characteristics) are important for perceptually determining an instrument's distinctive sound quality." (pp. 6-7)
 * 47) Handel (1995)
 * 48) "We will use the term timbre to refer to the perceptual qualities of objects and events; that is, 'what it sounds like.' Traditionally, timbre has been thought of as related to one acoustically measurable property such as that each note of an instrument or each spoken sound of one voice would be characterized by a single value of that property. . . . due to the interactive nature of sound production, there are many stable and time-varying acoustical properties. It is unlikely that any one property or combination of properties uniquely determines timbre. The sense of timbre comes from the emergent, interactive properties of the vibration pattern. . . . One possibility is that timbre is perceived in terms of the actions required to generate the event. . . . The perception of the production invariances would allow us to hear the same object in spite of large changes in the acoutical signal. Another possibility is that timbre is perceived simply in terms of the acoustic properties and that the connection between the acoustic properties and the object is learned by experience. In this view, the acoustic properties are used to figure out what event was most likely to have produced that sound." (p. 426)

I just noticed that the entirity of the above is available online at. A PhD compiled it. I often wondered what PhDs did. --Camembert

I hope my revision sheds a bit more light on the subject without becoming too dense. 195.107.47.196 14:25 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Inability to recognise
I believe I have an inability to recognise timbre. Does anyone have any idea how I could get this confirmed? I think it would be an interesting addition to this page. --Yamla June 30, 2005 17:18 (UTC)

 * Timbre recognition is a complex process. Accuracy in recognition is assisted by training. Can you tell the difference between the sound of a guitar and a trumpet? Hyacinth 21:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I can tell the difference between the two sounds. What I cannot do, however, is tell if the two are playing the same note.  The notes simply seem unrelated to me.  And I'm absolutely hopeless at telling that the note is the same but in a different octave, even if the same instrument is playing the note.  --Yamla 21:40, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think you are confusing recognizing timbre, with recognizing pitch. The problem you describe is really about relative-pitch. This can be achieved with ear-training. Try a software like solfege under gnulinux, that trains your ears for recognizing pitches absolutely and relatively. You also need to learn to sing. Bringing your voice to 'tune in' to a pitch, whether from a guitar or a flute, would again train your ears to tell apart pitches and of course, octaves. Hope this helps. Niyam Bhushan. October 11, 2005.

Revert
I'm not sure what the many editors of this article had in mind but stripping it of information and sources probably wasn't the true goal. As such I've reverted back to a version with a source and internal links. Hyacinth 21:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know exactly what this venerable post is referring to, but sometimes one feels duty bound to clean the Augean Stables, even knowing they will soon be filled up again. Fenneck (talk) 01:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Looks like it was an ordinary difference of opinion, over three years ago. Dicklyon (talk) 04:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

what impacts timbre
As a music teacher explaining this word to students I've always found that a discussion on "what causes differences in timbre" is helpful...

for example, material that an object is made of, age, air support, gender, etc.

 * I also agree that a section on the physical characteristics impact timbre (temperature, material of instrument/source, etc.) would be very helpful. 144.80.110.197 19:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The fundamental
The article currently has this sentence: "The fundamental is not necessarily the strongest component of the overall sound. But it is implied by the existence of the harmonic series -- the A above would be distinguishable from the one an octave below (220 Hz, 440 Hz, 660 Hz, 880 Hz) by the presence of the third harmonic, even if the fundamental were indistinct." This makes no sense to me. What is implied by the existence of the harmonic series? Please rewrite this sentence, someone. --LostLeviathan 00:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Debussy etc. - NPOV
The article contains the following: "To a marked degree the music of Debussy elevates timbre to an unprecedented structural status; already in L'Apres-midi d'un Faune the color of flute and harp functions referentially," according to Jim Samson (1977). Surpassing Debussy is Klangfarbenmelodie and surpassing that the use of sound masses.
 * What is meant by "supassing"?
 * A discussion of Timbre in music should have a global perspective. Debussy might have his place in such a discussion, but other types of music should also be mentioned here. Nannus 23:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
Why is it spelled "timbre" and not "tambre"?

 * It's from the French. See etymology. Dicklyon 23:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The Online Etymological Dictionary in the link above suggests it comes from the Greek word for drum, which I will humbly take to be the bell-like sound produced by striking a gong. Still, an argument could be advanced that it has been influenced from close connection to words like tinkle and thump, which are onomatopoeic in origin.  198.177.27.28 (talk) 08:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Very possibly onomatopoeic in origin, and you seem to have intuitively picked up the intermediate sense of "bell". According to the OED, there are several stages in the etymology: (1) Greek "tympanon" > Latin "tympanum" > pop. Latin "tymbano". (2) In the 13th century, the further worn-down French "timbre" was used to translate the Latin "tympanum" in Psalm 150 of the Vulgate. (3) In the 14th century, the sense of French "timbre" was transferred to a "kind of bell, esp. a hemispherical clock- or table-bell, and thence to a skull-cap of metal, a helmet, and in Heraldry to the crest over the shield in a coat of arms", as well as to a crest stamped on a legal document, and further to a stamp generally, as in "timbre-poste" = revenue or postage-stamp. (4) Finally, in the mid-19th century (when the phenomenon of sound character was being studied intensively by—mainly German—physicists), the "bell" sense had evolved to "sound of a bell", and was generalized to "sonorous quality of any instrument or voice" and finally to "character or quality of sound". The word at this point was used to translate the German "Klangfarbe" (literally "sound colour"), and was also adopted into English, in part through Ellis's translation of Helmholtz's landmark book, On the Sensations of Tone.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone please correct this?
"When the orchestral tuning note is played, the sound is a combination of 440 Hz, 880 Hz, 1320 Hz, 1760 Hz and so on. The balance of the amplitudes of the different frequencies is responsible for the characteristic sound of each instrument. This is used in FM synthesis."

I think 'additive synthesis' is a better description than 'FM synthesis' for the process of changing timbre by varying the balance of the amplitude of the different partials/harmonics, no?

-- Anonymous Coward —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.139.134.135 (talk)

 * Don't be afraid. The dangling "this" is also a problem in terms of interpreting what he was trying to say.  I'll just take it out, since it's not very relevant to the topic. Dicklyon 19:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
What's the source for the "timber" spelling, and it's tie to the USA? Dicklyon 00:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

 * According to Keller and Steinmann's Good Grammar Made Easy (2000, p.319, ISBN 0517204975) "timbre" and "timber" are "sometimes confused". Hyacinth (talk) 09:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymology
What is the etymological history behind timbre?

Is it perhaps connected with the root underlying the Latin tintinabulum - a ringing sound, as of bells? Or is it more closely connected to tinkle - the sound of glass cracking or breaking? Or is that too obvious? 198.177.27.28 (talk) 07:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

A different user: I was going to ask the same question. In particular, why the rogue pronunciation and/or spelling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.73.47 (talk) 23:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I am a little surprised that the etymology is not given in the article. I shall have to see about adding it. The OED gives the etymology as: "a. mod.F. timbre: see TIMBRE n.1 and n.2 From the sense ‘bell’, ‘small bell’ (see TIMBRE n.2) arose that of ‘sound of a bell’, ‘sonorous quality of any instrument or of a voice’, and finally that of ‘character or quality of sound’ (= Ger. klangfarbe), in which the word has passed into English use, retaining its French pronunciation."
 * so 198.177.27.28 is not far from the truth, and "tinkle" is also related. Sense 2 of the verb "tinkle", according to the OED, is: "To give forth a series of short light sharp ringing sounds. Said of bells, musical instruments, and other resonant objects". Tracking back to "n. 1" and "n. 2", OED further explains the French word is derived ultimately from late Latin tympanum, Greek tympanon, meaning a timbrel, or kettledrum. In the 14th century, the meaning was transferred to "n. 2": "a kind of bell, esp. a hemispherical clock- or table-bell, and thence to a skull-cap of metal, a helmet, and in Heraldry to the crest over the shield in a coat of arms. (Thence also to a crest impressed or stamped upon a legal or official document, a stamp, whence to a postage-stamp)."
 * I imagine that by "rogue pronunciation and/or spelling", 69.243.73.47, you are referring to the French pronunciation, which is retained in English, as the OED says.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Reference formatting
Editor Mcld in good faith spent a lot of effort changing the reference formats in this article from parenthetical referencing to footnotes, which I subsequently reverted, with a note referring to Citing_sources. Since then, editor Dicklyon has expressed the opinion that Mcld's changes were "a big improvement". Dicklyon is entitled to his opinion, which I do not share, but personal preferences do not override the Wikipedia guidelines, which clearly state "Citations are usually presented within articles in one of five ways". These ways include General references, found only in a citation list at the end of an article, and Inline references, which may be of four types: (1) Full footnote, (2) Shortened footnote, (3) Parenthetical reference, and (4) embedded links (if the source is a web page). Further, and specifically to avoid opinion wars, it states at Citing_sources: "The best practice is for a given article to be consistent in internal markup or formatting. It is better to follow the patterns in place if an article has a stable citation structure. Changing existing citations from one format to another should generally be done only with local consensus, and should never be the subject of an edit war", and at Citing_sources, "editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus. Where no agreement can be reached, defer to the style used by the first major contributor". With respect for the hard work done by Mcld, and the personal opinion of Dicklyon, it is clear that the present system of parenthetical referencing should be respected.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm happy to stick with the standard for the page - however, the style is inconsistent and this should be fixed. Jerome Kohl, you've talked about consistency but reverted the page to an inconsistent state in which there are 3 ref-style citations and 7 parenthetical-style citations - if you prefer the parenthetical style please could you change all of them rather than just reverting my edits? It looks rather unprofessional to have a "References" section and a "Sources" section, both of which are doing the same job different ways. --mcld (talk) 13:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Further, you've done more than simply change the reference formatting, you've also reverted my content edits. I spent a while yesterday improving the layout of a poorly-structured page and I don't appreciate the global revert. If you wanted to revert the citation style it would have been much nicer to actually do that, rather than reverting my content as well. I can't decide whether I should simply un-revert, or whether I should spend another hour un-picking the changes so I can set the referencing style back to an inconsistent state - seems rather senseless --mcld (talk) 13:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Sorry about that, on two counts. First, I thought I had danced around your content edits, but evidently I missed some. Secondly, I saw only the changes from parenthetical referencing to footnotes, not that there was originally a mix of the two. Checking the edit history, I now see that this state of affairs goes back to 2005, when an editor added one footnote to the article which, up to then had only parenthetical references. In the meantime, some other references have been added, some parenthetical, and some in footnotes. I personally prefer parenthetical referencing but, as I said before, personal likes and dislikes don't count on this issue. Given that parenthetical referencing was the original format, I suggest that all footnotes be corrected to match, as should have been done five years or so ago.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Further note: I have resolved the formats in favour of parenthetical referencing on two grounds: first, it was the original format, up until those rogue footnotes began appearing in 2005; second, there were still more parenthetical references than footnotes, even after the recent edits. In addition, I found many different reference styles within both the footnotes and the parenthetical referencing, not to mention the list of references at the end. I have done my best to resolve these differences, as well. Once again, let me apologise for not having paid sufficient attention to your edits, which in my haste I had mistaken for a simple change of some of the parenthetical refs to footnotes.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks for this. This article is steadily improving --mcld (talk) 06:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"Spectra" heading
What about the other changes, such as the removal of the "Spectra" heading? Hyacinth (talk) 02:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * I renamed "Spectra" to "Harmonics", it's not been removed. --mcld (talk) 13:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Additional citations
Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth (talk) 02:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally think it now has enough citations to support its content. It would be nice for the music-theory angle to be expanded a bit (with citations) since there's been so much discussion through the ages (see all the quotes added to this talk page...) --mcld (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ref format?
I'm puzzled as to why one or more editors are resisting moving from a mix of two ref formats, to a single format. What's the logic or policy that's relevant here? Dicklyon (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Who is resisting this? It is absolutely against Wikipedia guidelines (policies are another matter) to mix reference formats in a single article.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Consistency is obviously best, and Jerome's now made the style consistent. An issue is whether my change to footnote style was something that should be reverted, given that the style was previously inconsistent. I would argue that I'm being bold and there wasn't a problem. Jerome would argue that I should follow the guideline that says that if in doubt, stick with the original style of the article, rather than risking starting an edit war - and so I should have worked out which was the original style used and gone with that. This makes a lot of sense, since the choice of reference style is largely a matter of opinion. Following Jerome's recent edit the style is consistent so I think we're all happy. --mcld (talk) 06:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality
In what way is the section "Timbre in music history" biased?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Perhaps it just wasn't clear that it was about an attributed opinion. I fixed it up some, with the actual quote (indirectly sourced, so I still don't know the page number).  Dicklyon (talk) 23:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Analytical models of timbre
More of a question about whether this should be included under the objective description of timbre or left to being referred to in the DSP articles on audio analysis?? Bandcoach (talk) 07:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Clarity in the Lede section.
The lede huffs and puffs with vague or undecipherable jargon sometimes with origins in electronic audio editing (and oscilloscopes?) until finally the last paragraph nails it. HAPPY! I think that last paragraph should be merged into the first paragraph, and most of the first moved elsewhere.

"For instance, it is the difference in sound between a guitar and a piano playing the same note...," is an exquisitely clear example of elegant explanation. (A list of truisms is NOT an explanation.)  --2602:306:CFCE:1EE0:DD77:7AF:B261:CFE9 (talk) 03:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)Just Saying

title: Talk:Timbre