text:
Talk:The Stranger (Camus novel)

old talk (may be unsigned, unorganized and undated)
I completely disagree that Meursault doesn't embody the existential philosophy or that is actions are "subconscious at best." Meursault is a natural result of someone who has intellectually (and consciously) embraced the idea of a lack of inherent meaning in the world and thus lives his life in the present and for the pleasures of the physical world at hand.

Just thought I'd mention that the second English translation says right in it that the translation was originally published in 1988. Someone put 1989 in the article. I decided to mention it here instead of editting the page myself as I've never editted a page here before.

Oops, my edit didn't show up how I had intended it. See what I mean about never having editted anything here before? Sorry

I always thought that this was best translated as The Outsider; I know it's been published as The Stranger but certainly I wouldn't search for this work under The Stranger but as The Outsider. I suspect I am not alone. user:sjc

hey, i understand, and you're right to a point, and it might be a regional thing too, but the french translation is 'foreigner'...I just googled it http://translate.google.com/

 * I tend to agree with you, sjc - The Outsider is more familiar to me as well, but a Google search on "'The Stranger' Camus" comes up with a lot more hits than "'The Outsider' Camus". The book has been translated as both, so it doesn't matter that much which one the article is at, so long as there is a redirect from the other name. --Camembert

Personally, I know it best by the French title (probably because I read it for a French language class...) As such "The Stranger" is immediately recognizable; "The Outsider" less so. --Brion 19:50 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

-

Should I really state what I think of having l'Etranger under the title of The Stranger. That's a shame !!! But, of course, I will be told that this is an english wiki with english titles, english everything. Still, that translation is horrible.

This said, Magreb is a bunch of several countries (as defined in the text). I might be wrong, but as far as I know, Pieds noirs are french people who got to Algeria, stay there for a while (more than a generation), and then come back. Most of the Pieds-Noirs settled in Marseille region, Toulon, St Raphaël...A couple of people think they refer not only to french but more widely to europeans, but always, who had been in Algeria only. Not the whole Magreb. This is important imho. I'll check more though.

Reference article http://www.ifrance.com/memo2/pages/nosori.htm

Actually, I believe that pieds-noirs general refer to the French colonists who left Algeria after independence was granted to Algeria in 1962. The proper term for Europeans in Algeria during the period of French rule would be 'colons' meaning colonists.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.104.213.84 (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC) According to Naming conventions (use English), when a non-English book is written up, the article should be named for the most commonly used English title. So I guess The Stranger is what's best. —LarryGilbert 22:41, 2004 Mar 31 (UTC)

(note: my first language is French) I see no reason for the comment concerning l'étranger being rightly translated as 'foreigner'. Étranger does have several meanings in French that need to be disentangled. It does have the connotation of external to one's country, as in Affaires Étrangères => Foreign Affairs. However, it also has the connotation of a generic person unknown to you. In the context of Camus' book I would say that Mersault is an étranger in the sense that he is a stranger in the sense that is world is unknown to even himself. Camus focuses a lot on the way Mersault is unaffected by the world around him, hence making himself a stranger to everyone including himself. Therefore I think the comment about foreigner be removed --Pmineault 06:16, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Was this novel actually influenced by Heidegger, as the article says? That seems unlikely to me. --Ilyusha

I haven't read this novel but I was told at school that it is the only French novel written in the perfect tense (all other novels being in the past historic), and that this in itself gives it a feeling of alienation. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it's worth someone adding to the article. Ben Finn 22:32, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't have the book in front of me, but this seems extraordinarily unlikely to me. Jkelly 04:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * It is true that The Stranger is written without using the passé simple, and that it is, to my knowledge, unique in this respect. As to this engendering a feeling of alienation, I really don't know. 209.69.41.129 17:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The compound past is a conversational tense whereas the simple past is a literary tense. In general the book is written in very simple language, which makes it ideal for students.  As for what that gives you, I felt it was a little cold and detached.  (e.g., first sentence "Aujourd'hui, Maman est morte.  Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas."  "Today, Mom died.  Or maybe yesterday, I don't know.")  —Casey J. Morris 03:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I attempted to clean up this page a bit and add sections. Also, I changed the translation note to reflect Pmineault's comment. removed the clean-up tag, if someone thinks this page still needs clean up, please either clean it up yourself, or return the tag and write on the talk page what is missing.--darkskyz 12:29, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article states, "Meursault ... believes passionately in truth and justice" Yet, it's quite the opposite. Meursault is indifferent about these ideals. You do not see him fighting injustice or going into a philosophic frenzy searching for truth. Actually, truth for him is malleable and undependable. It is also irrelevant. He is only concerned about truth and justice when they directly affect his life, as seen after he recieves the death sentence.

"Meursault's love of truth overrides his self-preservation instinct - he feels that he must be punished for his actions, and refuses to try to evade justice." This is also questionable. Meursault didn't really believe he did something wrong. (It was the sun!) He shows no remorse and does not regret what he did. There is no way he is welcoming punishment! It is not the way he thinks. In the last chapter, he yearns for freedom and wishes to start living once again. No, he did not want to die to rectify the situation; he simply stopped stressing about death at the end.

I agree. Badgerpatrol 00:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

That is true, Meursault is partially an existentialist, therefore he does not believe in institutions (such as the police or marraige). The first half of the book is existentialist, Meursault never judges anyone, only observes them. Thrawst

 * I attempted to fix this to describe his behavior (he's honest) without the commentary on his beliefs and values that some previous editor had made but that seems neither directly present in the text nor cited as a third party's interpretation.216.165.12.9

Did Meursault commit murder?
I was always under the impression from reading l'Etranger that Meursault didn't kill the Arab on purpose, which the word murder would suggest. I think kill would be a better word for describing it.

 * I agree that 'kill' would probably be a better word, though I almost wish there was a word in-between 'murder' and 'kill', because its not like any of his explanations actually make sense as far as an accidental shooting go (or, really, as reasons for murder). -Seth Mahoney 02:35, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

"It is the highest selling book in France."
This claim was in the intro graf, I removed it because it seemed unlikely to me, is in the wrong spot, could use some figures to back it up, and in general looked like an anonymous poster was making an untrue claim. --Andymussell 22:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

the arab
the article mentions that "the arab" is raymond's ex's brother, but i was under the impression that he was not related to her but just the same nationality.

No, I just read that part today, and I'm pretty sure that is correct. It is Raymond's ex's brother.

 * It is Raymond's mistress's brother. Not Raymond's brother or ex-brother.  Raymond wasn't married to his mistress. 71.246.153.113 04:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

determinism != no free will
"Another theme is that we make our own destiny, and we, not God, are responsible for our actions and their consequences (non-determinism)." I strongly disagree with this sentence. Determinism doesn't neceserily claim that free will doesn't exist or that God is responsible for everything. Determinism is simply the belief that every physical action has a cause and it can be predicted scientifically if you know its current state. In human behavior, for example, it would be like predicting when you would get hungry... it won't predict if you would steal to satisfy your hunger

 * Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~ at the end. Maybe not, but it doesn't really matter.  This always sounds a little harsh, but the thing is that it doesn't matter if you agree or not - what matters is what the philosopher(s) in question say, whether or not it is sourced (or sourcable), etc., according to NOR and Cite your sources.  -Smahoney 16:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Outsider
Even though the literal translation of l'étranger is "the stranger" or "the foreigner", the "outsider" works better as it shoes meursault's alienation from society, which is a running theme in the novel

 * Please sign your contributions to talk pages by adding -~ at the end. There are English editions of the book called both The Stranger and The Outsider.  Currently, The Outsider is a disambiguation page which links to The Stranger (among other places).  -Smahoney 16:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

 * "Stranger" is an equally applicable term for Meursault and his position in--or out from, rather--society. Also, are you so certain the title refers to Meursault?  Perhaps it refers to the Arab he kills, who is a stranger to Meursault.  "The Foreigner" would also work in this case.  There are dozen of interpretations as to what the title refers, and any of the possible translations would be applicable in multiple senses.  Personally, I tend to favor "The Stranger," as it can be applied to more interpretations than any of the others, so it is more inclusive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.153.113 (talk) 04:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

It is just another example of Americani'z'ation. In Britain I have only heard of it referred to as 'The Outsider', however as it was primarily published in The U.S. as 'The Stranger', this set the precedent for all international search engines and resources such as wikipedia. Whatever it 'should' be called I feel we should, if somewhat regretably, accept it under the latter title for simplicity, especially when it is taken into account that the preceeding debate's efforts did not provide a unanimous decision on what the 'correct' translation 'should' be. Sbrf (talk) 21:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Insightful comment by Sbrf. Perhaps it's because I'm American, but I'm having a bit of difficulty with the article's statement that the title is more commonly translated as "The Outsider." First, there is no evidence cited to qualify that statement, and second, a cursory search online both in general and in various book retailers turns up more hits for "The Stranger." I haven't changed the original article, but I thought it'd be worth bringing up. -Anon 68.48.87.51 (talk) 18:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Problem with "Cultural Influences"
I think the title of the section "cultural influences" is misleading. Under the title cultural influences I'd expect to find elements of culture that influenced the book, at least, that's what anyone reading proper English should expect.

I propose the section be renamed "Influences on culture" or something to that tune. Even "references in popular culture" would suit me fine; anything but "cultural influences," it is a very misleading and inaccurate title indeed. Any takers? TydeNet 10:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Americanized

 * The tone of the two English translations is quite different, with the Gilbert translation exhibiting a more formal tone, while the Ward translation *is more "Americanized". An example of this difference can be found in the first sentence of the first chapter:
 * * Gilbert translation: "Mother died today."
 * * Ward translation: "Maman died today."
 * (Maman is an informal French term for mother.)
 * (Maman is an informal French term for mother.)
 * (Maman is an informal French term for mother.)

Is replacing an English term with a French one really a good example of it being more Americanized? Or is that just an example for it being a less formal tone? Seems kinda unclear as it is. Nakanja 12:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is either a bad example or just poorly explained. I completely fail to see how using 'Maman' makes the Ward translation more "Americanized." Can anyone explain this, or provide an example that makes sense?  I am taking out the words after "a more formal tone" in that sentence until it is edited to be clearer, since the sentence makes sense stopping at that point anyway. CoramVobis 02:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be better to call the Gilbert translation "Anglicanized" rather than calling the Ward translation "Americanized." Camus admitted that he wrote The Stranger purposely in an "American" tone and style, drawing influence from authors such as Cain and Hemingway.  Ward set out to make his translation follow Camus's original writing as close to the letter as possible--hence, it seems "Americanized" when compared to Gilbert's, when actually Gilbert's is the one that changes wordings to seem more "British."  The introduction to the Ward translation shows many good examples illustrating this, as do multiple critical reviews that can be found in CLCs.  The example given here, however, is horrible, as has been said above.  71.246.153.113 04:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello. All I want to say is : the best translation would be : "Mum died today". And voilà. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.250.128.214 (talk) 23:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. -24.192.98.124 (talk) 08:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah he's an enigma, not a baby "MUM" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.66.242 (talk) 01:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. It should also be pointed out the the differences are not just English vs. American, there have also been many changes in English from 1946 to 1988. "Mum" is much more acceptable to modern readers. Also,there have been changes in translation theory, the modern style of translation is to follow the original much more closely, the translator follows the original as closely as possible and keeps his own interpretations to a minimum. QuentinUK (talk) 01:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

revert of recent addition
Someone did a cut and paste of a large mass of text that was a plot mixed in with original analysis. It looked like a school paper. Not really appropriate for Wikipedia. A short plot summary is fine with cited analysis by notable critics in a separate section. -- Staubach 14:41, 25 January 2007 (ETC)

The Gilbert is not more formal. It is the most direct translation. The sentence structure is left almost identical to that of the original French.

More cleanup
I cleaned up the article a bit more, combined the translation sections and refrences sections, removed some insignificant cultural references (movie characters seen holding the book, president Bush's reading list, etc.), and added a No original reasearch template to the top of the background and philoshopy section as it seems like OR. darkskyz 11:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Existentialist or Absurdist?
This article calls The Stranger an Absurdist work yet if you go to the Wikipedia article on Existentialism The Stranger is classified as an Existentialist piece of literature. I think that this could cause some confusion amongst people looking for information regarding the topics of the book and both schools of thought. Thoughts or Comments?

I lack the know-how to make the proper changes which is why I'm leaving this up to you kind folks.

PatMan33 03:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Camus rejected being identified as an "existentialist." Absurdist would be a more appropriate label. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.153.113 (talk) 04:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

"The Stranger" may be interpreted as a piece of existential lierature, but as Camus' rejcts the existetialist label, and the novel also more faithfully reflects his own philosophy of the Absurd, Absurdist would be a more appropriate label.--Lanklan 14:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

referenced in Jarhead
Near the beginning of Jarhead, Private Swofford is reading it in the head. Staff Sergeant Sykes, played by Jamie Foxx, grabs it and mumbles a line from the novel. --ProdigySportsman 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is insignificant to the entry on the book. I removed it. See WP:TRIV and WP:HTRIV darkskyz 13:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TheStranger BookCover3.jpg
Image:TheStranger BookCover3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Alienated?!
If you read this book from the beggining until the last word, you will see that what he talks/screams when attacking the priest, in the last chapter of the second part, is SO FAR of being a matter of social alienation - He was aware of almost everything - but, is a matter of (social -only?) indifference/irrelevance.

[the sentence: "The novel tells the story of an alienated man, Meursault, who eventually(...)"]

Not a good article
This article is not good. For one thing, it doesn't pay the slightest attention to post-colonialist analyses of the novel, such as Edward W. Said's and Conor Cruise O'Brien's interpretations of it. There is a huge body of commentary on the book which is not mentioned here at all. I will add what I can. Lexo (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

 * This is not a literary theory lecture. This is a wikipedia article. What you're proposing is by-and-large unnecessary.68.248.237.250 (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So long as the aforementioned content is properly sourced, it is entirely appropriate. However, I have no reason to believe the article is ungood simply because these things are not mentioned.  (It's ungood for plenty of other reasons as of the current edit). -Verdatum (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As you can see, I didn't add what I could, mainly because I moved city in the meantime. But I still intend to add what I can, because the article still fails to set the book in its current critical context. Providing a well-sourced summary of the critical context would not be a 'literary theory lecture' but would do simply what every good WP article on a literary work does: show what notable people have said about the book, and the two people I mentioned - neither of whom were exactly 'literary theorists' - were both notable in their own ways and said some very interesting things about the book, some of which, incidentally, weren't entirely favourable. Lexo (talk) 12:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Rightly or wrongly, the Wikipedia article on Edward Said identifies him as a "literary theorist" in its very first sentence. SHJohnson (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

In Favor of "Pop culture references"
I oppose the deprecation of this "references in popular culture" section, and in general any such sections in articles about very famous works, provided they do not dominate the article. The extent of influence and recognition in other works is relevant cultural context. Enumeration of such influences is meaningful encyclopedic content which may help readers understand the degree of importance of a given work, especially the historical persistence of influence, and provides references to help readers explore derivative works.

One could argue for recasting such sections as unified, coherent, scholarly discussions of influence, but this requires an analytical and comprehensive scholarly authority which realistically, is rarely going to be available, while the ability to simply record cultural references as facts is ubiquitous. While preferring the former, we should not prohibit the latter. Rep07 (talk) 14:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Your argument, while valid, is beyond the scope of this article. Among other places, you can find this issue discussed at WP:TRIVIA and WP:HTRIV.  Concerning this article specifically, I have no problem with enumerating significant influences this work has had upon popular culture.  I do have issues with references similar to "a character can be seen reading the novel".  This work is unarguably significant, and does not require an enumeration of every evocation of the novel in every work of fiction to justify its significance.  Tracking down these references oneself, as opposed to relaying another published work's findings is an example of Original research, relying on Primary sources. -Verdatum (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

About the plot
Is it just me, or does the plot section read more like an existensial analysis of the book? Not that that's wrong- it just doesn't seem to directly deal with the plot. Djlane the dude (talk) 00:04, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Dangit, you're right. Anyone who wants to rewrite the plot section to stick closer to describing the events in the book is welcome to do so.  Though some of the interpretation that would be removed may need to be moved off to another section. -Verdatum (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Is Meursault A Sociopath?
I'm not sure if it's fitting for inclusion in the article, but one of the main things I found myself asking as I read part two of The Stranger was whether Camus was deliberately painting a picture of Meursault as a sociopath. I've not read much in the way of analysis of Camus' body of work or The Stranger in particular so I don't know if this has been debated but it's a question that begs an answer. --Piepie (talk) 19:53, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Depending on how strictly you are using the term, yes. See sparknotes.  It might not be a bad idea to sort things out so that there is a character analysis section discussing things like this. -Verdatum (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler?
I think the introduction of the article could be qualified as an spoiler (and thus would need an spoiler alert, but that wouldn't be adequate for the beginning of the article). The killing of the arab man takes place in the end of the first part of the book, after 6 chapters, and so is not just an introductory part of the book. I know that it is a well-known literature piece, but some people (like me in fact) don't know that this book is actually about this murder.

00:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by John C PI (talk • contribs)

 * There is a wikipedia content guideline that WP articles about works of fiction don't contain spoiler warnings: see WP:Spoiler. This is a site for general information, and so anyone reading a WP article on a novel should expect that there will be some sort of plot summary and that the summary will be reasonably complete. The function of the article is not to entice people into buying the book so as to find out what happens. If you found out what happens in the book and didn't want to know - well, too bad for you, but you should have expected that from an encylopedia article. Lexo (talk) 12:17, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Killing an Arab
Should this song from the Cure be mentioned as influenced by the novel? Im not a fan of "pop culture" and trivia, but this link seems significant to me.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree, it's significant and well-known. Strausszek (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree, plus-- as I recall, in direct response to this song "Killing an Arab", after threats of violence, the Cure played a benefit for the PLO or a Palenstinian organization of some kind. I think that is worthy of mentioning, but it needs more than my memory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.214.33 (talk) 01:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

How relevent is it that G W Bush read this book?
Is it really relevant? How famous do you have to be, to be mentioned in the article as someone who read the book? Should everybody of equal or greater importance then George W Bush who read the book be mentioned if that information was available? Is your connections to the book relevant? 90.142.167.182 (talk) 23:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

 * LOL, pretty much everyone who studies French at university level gets to read it! It's not just a literary classic, it's also become part of the reading list for courses in French as a second language all around the world, due to its accessible prose and opportunities for discussion.Strausszek (talk) 01:58, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

 * I removed the statement about G.W. Bush reading it. You might as well put that Oprah Winfrey, Dr. Phil, Glen Beck, Sarah Palin, and Bill O'Reilly read it. They all have no importance to the field of literature or philosophy, except to be laughed at for being empty specimens. --Caute AF (talk) 01:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Novel or novella?
The Stranger fits clearly into the usual definition of "novella" why does this article insist on calling it a novel? It (correctly) is included on the current List of novellas and at under 36,000 words in English, calling it a novel seems to be an act of accolade rather than an objective assessment. Certainly it is very often called a novel in reputable sources and there are many many other time-honored examples of novellas passing as novels, but the article should at least note that it is as much a novella as it is a novel. That it is a novella does not make it any less important and the word "novel" is misused when it is applied as an aggrandizement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.156.83 (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Article Name
I'd like to (re)open discussions on whether this page's primary name should be The Stranger or The Outsider. The situation is currently (8 April 2016) a little confused; the article is named "The Stranger", but the infobox is entitled "The Outsider" and the opening line "The Outsider or The Stranger (French: L’Étranger) is a novel..." The topic has been discussed a little before here, in 2004 and 2007. Both titles are used in English, but WP:DIVIDEDUSE doesn't help much in how to choose between them here. Google hits around three times as many for [//www.google.com/search?q=%22the+stranger%22+camus The Stranger] as [//www.google.com/search?q=%22the+outsider%22+camus The Outsider], but the WP:GOOGLETEST is generally considered unreliable.

For what it's worth, my personal preference is for "The Outsider", as the first translation, in 1942, used that name and, as the article states: "for more than thirty years his version was the standard English translation". I appreciate that the discussion is not terribly important, as we can redirect from one title to the other anyway. U+003F? 11:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

In popular culture
While many of the instances listed here are significant, drawing parallels between the novel and the work making the reference, I can see no reason why simple appearances of this work in another need listing. I propose to remove the following notes if no consensus is shown to keep them. I will wait a few days before making any changes. In the 1990 film Jacob's Ladder, Tim Robbins' character can be seen reading The Stranger during the subway scene at the beginning of the movie.

In the 2005 film Jarhead, Anthony Swofford (Jake Gyllenhaal) can be seen reading The Stranger during the bathroom scene.

In the 2006 film Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby, Jean Girard is seen reading a French language copy of The Stranger while racing.

In the 2012 film Life of Pi, the titular character of Pi can be seen reading a French language copy of The Stranger in a flashback scene to his youth in Pondicherry, India.

In the first episode of the 2014 HBO Series The Leftovers, Tom Garvey can be seen in the middle of the night reading an English version The Stranger, translated by Matthew Ward.

In the tenth episode of the 2014 WGN America Series Manhattan, the character Ida is seen returning a copy of the book to Elodie and comments on the book "I thought it would be racy".

In the first season of American Horror Story, in the second episode, Violet is seen reading The Stranger in bed when her mother brings her a cupcake.

--Khajidha (talk) 10:58, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Would Mistral be a good adaptation?
She's literally a similar character. French/Algerian, her theme is literally called "A Stranger I Remain" and her signature weapon shares the name of the book 67.140.163.241 (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Movie Version.
POV, the now very old movie version of this is excellent. It accurately conveys the anti-hero's descent into insanity and his callous disregard for anything other than himself. It is available for free on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK5QVSxyts

I am blackly amused that the movie accurately dresses Marie in her "sexy red and white striped dress".

Here is the imdb page: https://imdb.com/title/tt0062310/ 2001:8003:E40F:9601:E4DA:BF10:C1A:AA28 (talk) 05:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Stranger (Camus novel)


text:
Talk:Absurd

absurd
Theres nothing on here!! get something so we know what absurd means?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.20.35 (talk) 18:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Something has to be done about this article, but I don't know what. AxelBoldt 19:27 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

 * I moved it to Metapedia. --mav
 * Content added and resolved tag added to this section. PPdd (talk) 14:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Philosophy of humor
This article can be expanded as part of the philosophy of humor. PPdd (talk) 14:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Absurd


text:
Talk:Braveheart

References to use

 * Please add to the list references that can be used for the film article.

What is the point of this section. The film is not a documentary or a history lesson. It is a portrayal of life/a work of fiction. The film is not an academic work.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 08:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Braveheart. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070408081844/http://www.cnn.com:80/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/29/movie.battles/index.html to http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/29/movie.battles/index.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110807135603/http://connect.afi.com/site/DocServer/handv400.pdf?docID=245 to http://connect.afi.com/site/DocServer/handv400.pdf?docID=245

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Languages Spoken
The article says, 'In addition to English, the film's primary language, French, Latin, and Scottish Gaelic are spoken.' Does Gibson speak briefly in Italian? At some point Gibson says something just before or after Rome is mentioned. I assumed he was speaking in Italian, but I do not know. Maybe it was Latin?

My vague memory suggests he was speaking to his present (or future) wife. She asks him if he has been to Rome just before or after he says something that is not translated. She asks what it means and he replies, 'Beautiful.' At least that is what I think I remember.

Mark W. Miller (talk) 13:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I just found this dialogue mentioned on a different website which says Gibson responded to the Rome reference by speaking French.

Mark W. Miller (talk) 13:37, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

In the movie, Wallace knows his native language, Latin and French. He speaks latin and French to Isabel(?) particularly when there is a conversation between some English aide and her. He responds back to them in Latin then asks if they prefer French. 2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 08:08, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Wallace asking whether Isabella prefers French is another historic fautlt of the movie since the English and Scottish nobility did not speak English at that time, but French (they may have understood the languages of the commoners, but not used them as first choice). Indeed, Henry V was the first English king to speak English at court.

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Edition Versions?
Are there different video releases, and if so, should they be mentioned? For example, what's the difference between "Limited Cinedition" and "Special Collectors Edition" and what I assume would be a "regular" edition? JasonCarswell (talk) 06:25, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

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Inadequate explanantion of the film/execution process.
This paragraph, "In London, Wallace is brought before an English magistrate, tried for high treason, and condemned to public torture and beheading. Even whilst being hanged, drawn and quartered, Wallace refuses to submit to the king. As cries for mercy come from the watching crowd deeply moved by the Scotsman's valor, the magistrate offers him a quick death if he utters the word, "Mercy". Wallace instead shouts, "Freedom!", and the judge orders his death. Moments before being decapitated, Wallace sees a vision of Murron in the crowd, smiling at him." is confusing.

Wallace refuses to submit to the king and he refuses mercy. Is asking for mercy submitting and if so then that needs to be better associated between the two. How does the hang, drawn and quartered figure into this. Why should he submit or ask for mercy when he gets decapitated at the end anyways? This paragraph is written by someone who understands the film and the process but does not get it across to the reader. I've seen the film upteen times. How is it played out in the film that by Wallace not asking for mercy is then punished by the executioner(s). How? Because there is no sense of duration of any of it from yelling "Freedom" and the judge ordering his death which I presume is decapitation? There is subliminal information not making it to the text.2605:E000:9161:A500:3832:5234:5BA4:7DB6 (talk) 08:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Original Research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Find a Reliable Source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.25.206 (talk) 23:44, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the film is confused in its handling of these issues, but we should be cautious about discussing this in the article without proper sources. PatGallacher (talk) 01:21, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Racism
Why is there no mention of the widespread allegations that this film was racist in its portrayal of the English characters? (86.163.135.87 (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC))
 * Because, so far, all such WP:FRINGE type of un-Reliable Sourced blogs and so on, have not gained consensus. Until Reliable Sources find some sort of tread to gain from this sort of nonsense, it won't be in the article. 50.111.25.206 (talk) 23:43, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Because a)Wikipedia isn’t neutral and accurate attempts to confirm anti English prejudice will always be attacked by the same who carry anti English bias and b) Wikipedia itself is prejudiced. Note how a mainstream, ordinary newspaper such as the Daily Mail is banned as a source by Wikipedia 86.3.134.204 (talk) 23:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Themes
The article needs perhaps a themes section. Because there is a large criticism section, there should be some handling of the film's themes which claify some of the content in the criticism section. Some themes: The film is anti-aristocratic, pro-Scottish independence, and anti-British, and there is a substantial amount of criticism of the film from the British press and intelligencia of the films historical inaccuracy, but also of the film's themes named above, either directly or indirectly.

Any simple refutations of the criticisms is also important. For example the criticism of the inaccurate wardrobe (kilts) is easily dismissed by directorial prerogative. -Inowen (nlfte) 09:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * We need sources that discuss the film's themes. Reviews are often a good place to look for sourced commentary, but academic sources are even better. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Misleading Ethnicity
One of the biggest problems with Braveheart is the anachronistic portrayal of the ethnic groups involved.

Both the 'English' and 'Scottish' aristocracy at this period were neither English nor Scots but rather Norman-French. Robert the Bruce was quite as French as Edward.

Nor were the Scots all exactly 'Scottish'. The Highlanders were Scots to be sure. But the Lowlanders of whom Wallace was one were, despite being subjects of the King of the Scots, in fact predominantly Anglo-Saxons or 'English'.

To complicate matters even further the inhabitants of the South West of Scotland had historically been Welsh or Old British. And 'Welsh' seems to be the most likely origin of the surname Wallace.

Thus rather than being a simple Scots vs English conflict the events portrayed in Braveheart are really a complex mixture of a peasants revolt, a barons revolt and a Norman civil war. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.49.237 (talk) 10:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The important thing is to explain how one would improve the article. Do any published secondary sources talk about this? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The main article here is First War of Scottish Independence (1296-1328). Braveheart is just a fictionalized depiction of it.

The ethnic backgrounds of the combatants are not that important. Robert the Bruce was Scoto-Norman, and a descendant of both the Anglo-Normans and the Gaels. His hereditary claim to the throne was based on his descent from David I of Scotland (reigned 1124-1153).

Scotland in the High Middle Ages represented a mix of cultures anyway. Scoto-Normans, Gaels, Norse–Gaels, and Anglo-Saxons were all part of its demography. The variety of Middle English spoken in Scotland would eventually evolve into the Scots language. Dimadick (talk) 13:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Philip
It's far from clear that the character of Philip, Edward II's lover, is even loosely based on Philip Mowbray. He might be loosely based on Piers Gaveston, although he wasn't defenestrated by Edward I either. PatGallacher (talk) 00:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

'Braveheart'
I have excised two references to 'Braveheart' being a name that applies to Robert Bruce. This is a post-'Braveheart' factoid, derived from a misreading of certain 19th century poems and retellings where Sir James Douglas is depicted as addressing Bruce's actual heart as he carries it in battle- (in themselves elaborations based on Sir Walter Scott's fictitous  embroidering of an equally fictitious poem from the 15th century). It has no bearing on the historical character of Robert Bruce or his legacy. JF42 (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Braveheart


text:
The Outsider

The Outsider may refer to:

Film

 * The Outsider (1917 film), an American film directed by William C. Dowlan
 * The Outsider (1926 film), an American film directed by Rowland V. Lee
 * The Outsider (1931 film), a film starring Joan Barry
 * The Outsider (1939 film), a film starring George Sanders
 * The Outsider (1948 film) or The Guinea Pig, a British film starring Richard Attenborough
 * The Outsider (1961 film), a film directed by Delbert Mann and starring Tony Curtis
 * The Outsider, a TV film and series pilot starring Darren McGavin; became a series in the 1968–69 season
 * The Outsider (1979 film), a film starring Craig Wasson
 * The Outsider (Le marginal), a film starring Jean-Paul Belmondo
 * The Outsider (1998 film) or Gangster World, a science fiction TV movie
 * The Outsider (2002 film), a western starring Tim Daly and Naomi Watts
 * The Outsider (2005 film), a 2005 documentary directed by Nicholas Jarecki, featuring Bijou Phillips and others
 * The Outsider (2014 film), an action crime film starring Craig Fairbrass, James Caan and Shannon Elizabeth
 * The Outsider (2018 film), an action crime film starring Jared Leto
 * The Outsider (2019 film), a western starring Jon Foo and Trace Adkins

Literature

 * The Outsider (Camus novel) or The Stranger (L'Étranger), a 1942 novel by Albert Camus
 * The Outsider (Colin Wilson), a 1956 book by Colin Wilson
 * The Outsider (King novel), a 2018 novel by Stephen King
 * "The Outsider" (short story), a 1926 short story by H. P. Lovecraft
 * The Outsider (Wright novel), a 1953 novel by Richard Wright
 * The Outsider and Others (1939), the first major collection of stories by Lovecraft
 * The Outsider, a 1961 novel by Monica Edwards
 * The Outsider, a 1984 novel by Howard Fast
 * The Outsider, a 1996 novel by Elizabeth Lambert (writing as Penelope Williamson), basis for the 2002 film
 * "The outsider", a 1959 biographical essay about Iwo Jima flag-raiser Ira Hayes, by William Bradford Huie, basis for the 1961 film
 * The Outsider, a character in the 1987 novel Watchers by Dean Koontz
 * The Outsider (play), a play by Dorothy Brandon; basis for 1926, 1931, and 1939 films (see above) and other adaptations
 * The Outsider (magazine), a 1960s literary magazine

Music

 * The Outsider Festival, a Scottish music and comedy festival

Albums

 * The Outsider (CL Smooth album), 2007
 * The Outsider (DJ Shadow album), 2006
 * The Outsider, by Davy Knowles, 2014

Songs

 * "The Outsider" (song), a 2003 song by A Perfect Circle
 * "The Outsider", by Black Country Communion from 2
 * "The Outsider", by Black Veil Brides from Vale
 * "The Outsider", by Blur, a b-side of "Crazy Beat"
 * "The Outsider", by Ian Hunter from You're Never Alone with a Schizophrenic
 * "The Outsider", by Marina and the Diamonds from The Family Jewels
 * "The Outsider", by Uriah Heep from Outsider

Series

 * The Outsider (1968 TV series), a US series starring Darren McGavin
 * The Outsider (1983 TV series), a UK series starring John Duttine
 * The Outsider (miniseries), a 2020 series based on the Stephen King novel

Episodes

 * "The Outsider" (The O.C.)
 * "The Outsider" (Once Upon a Time)
 * "The Outsider" (Rubicon)
 * "The Outsider" (The Dead Zone)
 * "The Outsider", an episode of The Zula Patrol

Video games

 * The Outsider (video game), a canceled action-adventure game
 * The Outsider (Dishonored), a character in the Dishonored video game franchise

title: The Outsider


text:
Talk:History of the graphical user interface

Older discussion
The organization of the intro par. of this article is absurd. Windows is not the culmination of the GUI, of which all other GUIs are merely predecessors. Also rest of this article is sloppy and NPOV. Guess I'll put this on my to-edit list, unless someone else gets to it first. k.lee 19:36 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

 * What surprised me the most was this line:

'Windows Vista will also be the first version of Windows where the graphics card will be used to draw the desktop'

As opposed to what, a dot-matrix printer? A more correct wording would be 'the 3d engine on the graphics card' or something alone those lines; Windows has been using 2d graphics card acceleration engines for at least half a decade, and of course no version of Windows could display graphics without using the graphics card at all.

 * NPOV is a good thing. Perhaps you mean POV? --mav

 * Should be fixed now. Tempshill 23:05, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 Is there meant to be any order to the items in this page? They seem to be at random... they're neither in alphabetical nor date order

 * I went through and attempted to chronologically sort. Tempshill 23:05, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No mention of NEXTSTEP? // Liftarn

I was going to. I guess I can put some info in now :) Dysprosia 09:24 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Can an OS/2 expert revisit the statement that WPS was a "radical departure" and that Windows 95 imitated "much of this"? I find this hard to believe from a user's standpoint. Perhaps the meaning is that it was a radical departure for developers utilizing GUI elements? If from a user's point of view it was really a radical departure, can someone describe what was the departure at least? Tempshill 00:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Recent overhaul of Amiga stuff is good, but now feels a little over the top - in the overall scheme of things it is an interesting, but not especially important example, IMO. Also, as it stands there is a lot of POV stuff in there - for example praising the ability to run in "only" 256K - remember, original Mac had half of that, and was also a more complete GUI. GRAHAMUK 11:39, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

--- This article got a mention in the newspaper, The Guardian (London) )January 15, 2004) Pg. 20. Pity they got the URL wrong :) --Imran 16:56, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

From memory, I *thought* the RISC OS GUI design was heavily borrowed from NeXT STEP (to the point where Acorn called their machines "personal workstations"), Can anyone confirm or deny this? 80.126.238.189 10:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Just from looking, they have some similarity, but I wouldn't be swayed to say so. Dysprosia 10:58, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

As the dork who made the massive overhaul on the Amiga entry, I agree it was over the top, though I was also hoping/counting on a 'disinterested party' editing it down to what seemed most novel. (FWIW, while the Amiga was severely limited with 256k... and I was almost going to note the 512k all models were 'instantly' upgraded to, but figured what the hey, the edit sucked already ;) ... don't forget how limited the first Mac was after it loaded the Finder, and it could only support one other process anyway. Far prettier, yes, but how else was it 'more complete?' Then again, I think 'resources' are a mixed blessing.)  To me, the 'drawers' are a useless point, but someone else felt them important, so I tried to preserve all that cruft.  (I have no idea how or where to tell the tale of the 'usability testing' that went into the palette choice, but it's a good anecdote of what 'usability' engineering really entails... someone else should feel free to research that and wedge it into a more related article, perhaps.)  Amiga really comes down to "multitasking" and "multimedia," two human-factors breakthroughs we take for granted today, but people will perpetually argue that "doing multiple things at once" is just a CS problem with no human-factors impact, and "multimedia" means squat, while explaining it as "could do pretty much everything you could do with Win95, ten years earlier" comes off as baiting.

Er, anyhow, I used OS/2 more than I ever did the Amiga, and while the history there is a mess (first versions were 16-bit DOSalikes for the then-new 286s, WPS didn't appear until slightly later, IBM's idea of what it was supposed to be didn't settle until at least 2.0), the 'radical departure' was the inclusion of a proper desktop metaphor, plus the 'templating' that Apple introduced with the Lisa but the Macintosh foreswore. While capitulating to Apple may not have been very innovative, they beat every other x86 "OS" product to the party by a few years; Microsoft was still pushing the Program Manager (only a menu of programs, albeit a pretty drag'n'drop one), Be didn't exist yet, and everything else (GEM, GeoWorks?) still ran atop DOS and didn't, er, 'need' to be a complete OS.

More generally... I'd like to see everyone pay more attention to the issues that shaped our interaction (and, um, the state of the planet) in the legal domain; the GEM lawsuit is quite important, and the Amiga RMB-menu dodge is interesting because it not only kept the stupid platform alive long enough for 'kids' like me to discover and wail about it, but probably played a tangential role in the evolution from static menus to 'context' ones -- IBM 'stole' or independently developed the idea for OS/2 while Apple was still on the war-path, reversing the mouse buttons by default so a right-click selected for drag and a left-click drove a context menu -- and that's the real /history/ of how we stumbled from Point A to Point B.

The Stardock Systems guy provides a little more OS/2 perspective here; don't forget that IBM scared everyone off both by Being IBM and charging ludicrous prices for their development kits... MS were still the 'little' guy, Big Blue was the monopoly du-jour.
 * -- Anonymous Peon (Fri May 7 09:06:40 UTC 2004)

---

Me again, tried to be less heavy-handed with Windows, still too much information to convey in too small a space. Getting really curious about the way the whole look-and-feel thing... and/or independent design "missteps"... delayed convergence on the unified desktop metaphor... and of course, there's backpressure from the Start-Menu, Taskbar, and Dock crowds now that we did converge on this one GUI Esperanto. (Personally, I consider this an unsolved problem, as you can see when one subset is pleased by 'spatial' desktops, but the other half bemoan the loss of 'browser' interfaces that are more efficient with screen real-estate and allow that little bit of 'CLI' with the path entry field.) ... Anyhow, given that, maybe I can whet someone else's curiosity by noticing it, and beg some fact-checking, editorial consensus, independent insight?

 * -- Anonymous Peon (Mon May 10 03:11:05 UTC 2004)

--- So, I'm trying to trace the contributions of various organizations in enhancing the GUI. I can't find any definitive references, so please correct me. Here goes:

- SRI: Mouse, bitmapped display, windowing, object selection - Xerox PARC: Overlapping windows, icons, direct manipulation paradigm, desktop metaphor - Apple: gestural interface (click-and-drag)

Who developed contextual (right-click) menus first? I know they were in OS/2; was IBM first? What about WYSIWYG, as it applies to printing?
 * --Exia

Even before the SRI work, there was the Sketchpad prototype. It was a partial IMP instead of a WIMP. There were only function icons, and no document icons, not even the generic ones which came up at Xerox PARC and even less the true, completely editable document icons which the Mac folks invented. Still, Sketchpad had an impressive light pen as a pointer, and a limited menu capacity. There is much more on it out on the Web, starting with the original thesis. AlainV 02:54, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

Wasn't NExTStep UNIX and X based? I remember the screen being black and white, but X supports monochrom monitors. Did NextStep use X as the underlying window system? Since other window systems were/are X based (KDE, Gnome), shouldn't it be listed earlier in the text.
 * 69.5.156.155(rld)2004 June 17

 * NeXTSTEP is based on OpenBSD, rather then Unix itself. The GUI/windowing system is not based on X, but on Display PostScript. This is similar to how it remains in Mac OS X, though display postcript is now replaced by a smaller subset known as Quartz, married with PDF as a metafile format. Graham 03:27, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Uhhh, no, NeXTSTEP is based on Mach. However, 3rd party software provided X servers so you could run X apps on NeXTSTEP or OPENSTEP. Dysprosia 03:29, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

The Agat computer really did not have a graphical user interface - I used one for several years in early 90s and it was all text-based. Although it was an Apple II clone, the UI was not ported over. Curiously, it did have a mouse-like interface but with two separate scrollers for vertical and horisontal movement.

X window System section caption
I want a vote on this, which do you consider to be the better caption?

"An X-Window Desktop" or "X11 desktop running the fvwm95 window manager."

Which one is more intelligle to you? Which one has more meaning? For the layperson, which has more jargon?

My vote is for "An X-Window Desktop" to be displayed on the thumbnail. I had that as the caption and added "X11 desktop running the FVWM95 window manager" to the fullsize picture but the author of the caption, David Gerard reverted my changes within 2 hours.

I put this here to avoid an edit war. VOTE NOW!

 * As I said in my edit, your removal violated the policy at captions. Furthermore, voting is not the first resort you appear to be using it as; it's a last resort if discussion does not reach some sort of rough consensus. As such, calling for a vote is grossly premature.

 * (The section on X needs a complete rewrite in any case - X has any number of "interfaces", because X is a platform for interfaces rather than an interface itself.) - David Gerard 15:53, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Would you please tell me what "policy" I "violated". Unlike you I consider an edit war to be the last resort.

Speaking of policy I'll highlight this bit from the revert page:

"A revert is the advised action to deal with vandalism. Where you think an older version of a page is better than the current version, a revert is sometimes appropriate. Sometimes, though, it's better to write a third version that takes the best bits of the other two, and combines them to get the best of both worlds. < this is what I did

Note that reverts are not appropriate if a newer version is no better than the older version. You should save reverts for cases where the new version is actively worse.

Regardless, we strongly recommend against heated revert wars. Instead, have a look at our advice on staying cool when the editing gets hot."

 * The caption as was implies to the reader that this is the X interface. This is simply incorrect; if used in this article, it should say in this article that this just happens to be fvwm95. Sending that off to the image page itself is not a good idea in the context of the article - it's important and relevant so as not to mislead the reader.

 * That said, as I said, the notion of "an" X11 interface is fallacious, and the section needs a rewrite. Have a look at the illustrations on X11 - three different desktop environments under two different operating systems. (It should probably have twm as well.) Putting those in would make this section a bit less worse - David Gerard 13:44, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I hope you find the time to rewrite the section (or anyone else if they're inclined) I felt strongly about not including the terms (and shouldn't FVWM be in capitals?) because I thought "what's this X11? and what's fvwm95"? I thought some uni student doing unix was trying to show off their knowledge or something. I was originally going to put "An example of an X Window desktop" but thought that was too long and shortened it to "An X Window Desktop". I guess the aim of wikipedia isn't to get hot under the collar so I'll consider my work done.

Focus
I think the focus of this article is rather strange. It focuses too much on the technical implementation side of the UI's, and not enough on the human interface part of it. The article needs a review by a knowledgeable interface specialist. — David Remahl 12:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it lacks such thing such as the crucial role Larry Tesler (who went from Xerox PARC to Apple at that time) played in doing, after hours at Apple, semi-informal usability tests that defined the basis for the early Mac Interface. I think that Tesler's work was at least as important as Raskin's earlier contributions. But what do _you_ think is missing in the human interface part? We can't wait for more knowledgeable persons to come and look over the article. They might never come. We have to start patching it up ourselves. This is why I am asking your opinion on where to begin. Look at it this way: If there is at least a start of an effort at a more balanced view then  "knowledgeable interface specialist"s might be more inclined to correct it than if it looked hopeless. --AlainV 16:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I know, I know, you can edit this page right now. It's only that I have so many things I need/want to do. I noted the possible omission on the talk page to raise others' awareness of the problem, but I'll also make an effort myself. Perhaps I can even find an expert who's willing to take a look, since I know a few. I've added the page to my (growing) todo list. I didn't have specific suggestions of what to include before. My suggestion was just a general reflection on the style after reading through the article. But, off the top of my head, some things it should include:
 * The placement of menus, compare different systems, relate to research
 * Window management, such as windows that collapse to just a title bar in Mac OS, windows that minimize to the task bar in Windows and various virtual display systems in Unix systems.
 * How icons have evolved
 * Non-window/menu/icon based GUIs
 * Scrollbars (proportional, set size)
 * Perhaps some of these things would fit better in an "evolution of the graphical user interface", with this article being just a quick summary of the different OSes.
 * — David Remahl 17:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * — David Remahl 17:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This article should discuss IMHO other GUI concepts than the current window-icon-titlebar-startbutton. Remarkable examples are Jeff Raskin's Archy system and Plan9's graphical interface (originating in the Blit terminal). Archy has an infinite-zoom evrything-online interface with instant persistence. Plan9 features a functional minimalism that's incredibly productive compared to other current systems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.247.247.239 (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

X11 & FVWM95? It's a joke?
X11 & FVWM95? It's a joke? It is pure Windows running WindowMaker in cygwin emulator!!

Comment: What are you talking about? The first versions of X Windows was made around 1984 for UNIX, and thus predates MS Windows by far... As for FVWM95, it's a version of FVWM2 that has been remade to look more like windows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.105.62 (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

History of the GUI article on Ars Technica
Something to compare this page to could be an article just published on the Ars Technica site http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars. I think it's been influeneced a bit by wikipedia (I notice a few screenshots are the same as ones I dug up a while back) - Diceman 11:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Depending how much influence there was from the Wikipedia article at that time, this is a potential problem. I've just referenced the article elsewhere. The "new concept" claim was in the Ars Technica article but appently not in that version of History of the graphical user interface (unless it was removed between the article's initial draft and publication?) Anyway, if this is controversial, please discuss at Talk:Icon bar. Thanks. --Trevj (talk) 12:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a real problem. WP:CIRCULAR is a warning against linking to mirror sites and people citing Wikipedia, not about online newspapers with a solid reputation. Ars Technica has a good enough review process so that it can be presumed to have performed fact-checking and count as a reliable source. Diego Moya (talk) 15:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * for the clarification. Also thanks for this edit. --Trevj (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Merzouga Wilberts
Who/what is that? These words are mentioned in the "Xerox Parc" section, but I can't find other references to them using search engines. -- Tuxlover 29 June 2005 17:35 (UTC)

I think it's a joke, or perhaps an experiment intended to disprove the claim that factual errors in Wikipedia articles are quickly corrected. If the latter, the experiment was evidently a success.

In the Windows Vista part
Aero will also be the first version of Windows where the graphics card will be used to draw the desktop Maybe that should be rephrased in some way? :) Can't come up with anything myself, sorry. --217.157.167.102 13:04, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Import human
 * (Color blue or red)?;::'
 * Time 11:00]hdh)%
 * Ypu are ioowppw (hsk;ksl)15.74.982.9282<. 103.73.184.27 (talk) 14:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

GNOME & KDE
Shouldn't these two GUIs be mentioned here? I'd say they are just as notable as BeOS and OS/2 Warp. Jacoplane 18:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree. Also a discussion of other less common X environments under the one that spawned them, like ROX under RISC OS. (Not just any X window manager; only those that have a distinct operating environment.) To the end user they're way more important than what underlying system draws the graphics onto the screen, and god knows trying KDE out for me is about as big a change as running Windows/Mac OS X in terms of what I get. — Felix the Cassowary 23:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Patent or ©?
But this can only be considered a rumor, as all copyrights on windowed GUIs were property of Xerox at that time.

Shouldn't this be patents? Copyrights protect implemetations, patents protect ideas. There's difference. --logixoul 12:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Changed it. But unsure whether I'm right. --logixoul (is not watching anymore) 13:43, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

What about HTML?
Don't HTML-based UI's fit into the picture here somewhere? Sure the early ones were very crude, but then we had applets, flash, DHTML, etc. Now there seems to be a push to rich internet applications that are based on a number of different technologies.

I think that the history is incomplete without some discussion about how the web interface has evolved over the last 12 or so years. Bernfarr 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. --logixoul 15:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't that be another page? it certainly offered nothing new over existing graphical user interfaces and to this day it's much clunkier than even the oldest GUI systems. Lost Goblin 17:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess its relevant enough to justify a sentence or two (similar to what you wrote). OTOH I agree that it'd be better on a page on its own. --logixoul 13:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there might be a logical disconnect between the GUI where Cairo -> GTK+ -> C++ go with program development and Netscape's introduction of the Graphical web browser extended with DOM, Flash, HTML5, and the plug-ins required to run them go with web-page development.Pendare (talk) 13:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The earliest computer graphics were probably baudot 5-bit based, similar to the teletype calendar released each Christmas. HTML itself did not include GUI capability but extended ASCII offered some line and block characters for graphic use. Pendare (talk) 13:25, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Why is Windows Vista separate from Windows?
Can anyone explain why there are separate sections (that are no co-located) for UIs of the same basic "heritage", such as Windows vs. Windows Vista/Aero, and the various iterations of the Apple interface? It would appear that someone wanted them to be roughly time-sequential, but (IMO) that way lies madness, as after Vista, we'll have a post-Tiger (Panther?) section, etc, etc. It would seem that a historical/modern split, then a creator split would make more sense than the current ad-hoc ordering. -- Gnetwerker 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, the section reads like advertising. I tried to fix it up some. Per your complaint I'll move it back under "Windows". Ashi b aka tock 00:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

XGL & AIGLX
Should AIGLX and XGL be mentioned, or no because they're not very functional yet? — a thing 08:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Added
I added a section in about 3D desktops Metisse/XGL/AIGLX. I didn't want to go into the politics (Vista, etc.) but I wanted to stick to what is currently generally available. I also mentioned DirectFB, which is not but is an interesting technology which probably will be more available in the future.

Probably need expanding and possibly updating with a current state of affairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grahamsbrain (talk • contribs) 10:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

AmigaOS
AmigaOS had the capability to run Workbench either in its own window or as a backdrop window (as a full-screen app on the screen, without window decorations) right from the start, with AmigaOS 1.1. This had nothing to do with genlocking and the like.

The above is also incorrect. Starting with 2.0, the user had the option to have disk icons placed in a window rather that directly on the background (the only option in up to 1.3). What the article most likely refers to is the "screen" concept. Intuition allows multiple screens that can be be dragged and moved vertically exposing underlying screens. For example, you could have certain games running full screen, and when you dragged their screen down, it exposed Workbench again. The OS implemented this by switching the video memory pointer on certain raster lines. In any case, all of this has nothing to do with genlocking.

Extensible GUI
Missing from the various sections is the important topic of extensible GUI technology, such as OpenDoc and OLE Automation. That's a major issue. There is a whole industry based on writing extensions to Microsoft Word, for example -- speech recognition, language translation, etc. Those all work by dynamically modifying the GUI of Word. DonPMitchell 10:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

PLATO
Missing from this is a kind of great grandfather of GUIs, the PLATO system. Now, I read that you refer to GUIs as windowed environment, that it is multi-tasking, and that one uses a mouse ordinarly. I would argue that each of these things has antecedents in the PLATO system. I would like to offer the page on it in wiki and to point out that you can actually use the legacy code preservation simulation client at www.cyber1.org. No, PLATO is not anything that OS X, Vista, Ubuntu or even the Lisa was, but it was part of the development history. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_System —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.41.154 (talk) 22:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

Anachronism
The article states that Windows was modeled on the Mac OS (released in 1984) while early builds and screenshots of Windows were available in 1983. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.241.236.224 (talk) 06:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Microsoft had early access to the Mac, starting circa 1982, IIRC. They were one of the primary developers Apple was courting.

Nuked a para from the Amiga section
''Workbench is also used on the Amiga as a metaphor for their own standard of "desktop" as opposed to others, such as "Macintosh Finder". Workbench itself is another library or process. Rumors said that this concept of modularity was invented by Commodore to treat Workbench as a window amongst the others in the desktop, in order to avoid reprisal from Apple. But this can only be considered a rumor, as all patents on windowed GUIs were property of Xerox at that time.''

The first part of this is nonsense, as the Mac Finder was always an actual process (yes, even back in 1984, it was just another process -- one that you could replace if you so choose, and had a better choice...). The Xerox-holds-all-the-patents line is patently untrue. And why talk about a rumor here?

The Amiga section in general seems a little out of control. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.34.156.186 (talk) 21:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:3DPlugin.jpg
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Reestructuring of the first level in chapters to help a historic narrative
I've built on the previous changes to ordering by adding a top level separation in chapters, that IMHO helps to follow the article as a unified "history of GUIs" and not just a collection of historys of individual projects. Hope this enhances the article.Diego 00:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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3D User Interface
Why aren't Compiz or Beryl mentioned in the '3D User Interface' section, while Windows Vista that's mostly 2.5D is mentioned?

After all, Compiz and Beryl are the first really useful 3D desktops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.105.62 (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

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Early GUI?
I think DATAR may have used one of the first GUI's

Matt (talk) 22:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Did Engelbart work for Xerox?
"Short for Graphical User Interface, the GUI was first developed at Xerox PARC by Alan Kay, Douglas Engelbart, and a group of other researchers." When did Engelbart work for Xerox? elgaard (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He didn't. He was at SRI at the time. - Rlw (Talk) 18:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, The Mother of All Demos was at SRI International. Disavian (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Xerox PARC
A picture would greatly enhance the section. The best one I can find is http://weather-dimensions.com/tedkaehler/us/ted/resume/st80release-lic2.jpg, but IDK about permissions. Does anyone know of any? Yodaat (talk) 00:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What, no mention of the 3Rivers Computer "PERQ"?
It was first shown to the public in July, 1980 and first sold commercially in August, 1980, months before the Xerox Star. It was thus the very first computer to be sold commercially with a GUI....For a Wikipedia article on the history of the GUI to not even mention the first Commercial application of the GUI is just ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.170.135.182 (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Skeuomorph?
I recently learned a neat vocabulary word: skeuomorph! That's when something artificial tries to visually replicate something "real". In the case of the GUI desktop, well, we refer to a desktop, we are trying to replicate or recreate the actions of a desk with a desk calendar, drawers, file folders, etc. It applies to other stuff as well (ie. the false leather grain they mold into the plastic on your car's dashboard, the fake stitches on pieces of artificial leather used on sandals, etc). I will add a link to this in "See also". Acidradio (talk) 22:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Xerox Star screenshots
http://www.digibarn.com/collections/screenshots/xerox-star-8010/index.html

Diego (talk) 10:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Apple's contribution
The first sentence currently says, "Beginning in 1979, started by Steve Jobs and led by Jef Raskin, the Apple Lisa and Macintosh teams at Apple Computer (which included former members of the Xerox PARC group) continued to develop such ideas." That lengthy sentence could be parsed in several ways, but none would be fully accurate. Jef advised the Lisa team in 1979-80; he never led them. He founded the Macintosh project in 1978; he led it until Jobs took the helm in 1981. I'm not sure how to revise the sentence so it's both accurate and relevant.Larry Tesler (talk) 18:42, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

A thought on language usage
The very first thing a person sees in this article is a tribute to William Gates. How so? By the use of the term "Graphical" in the title. Bill was the first person to use this obdurate and uneducated form of the word for describing his *graphic* (IE: containing pictorial elements) interface. This type of misuse now has permeated the English language, and we now have such things as historical events, mathematical equations, technological advances, magical tricks, quadratical equations, psychical studies, and similar language atrocities. A few days ago I ran across an article where a college professor wrote about bubonical plague infesting several Pacifical islands. Just because a word ends in the letter C does not mean a person has to add the -al suffix. I don't care what Uncle Billy says, it's a *graphic* interface, folks. Please modify the entire article to use the term correctly. Thanks - John Fairbairn - Rush Creek Research Company 67.233.240.168 (talk) 08:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Apple GUI pictures are not accurate with regards to noteworthiness
The article should have photos showing the Lisa GUI on top and the Mac GUI below.

The IIgs is not noteworthy enough and the Lisa is the most noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.33.93.239 (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This article is really incomplete
I mean, come on. An article about the history of the GUI and no mention of SmallTalk (the language and environment that gave birth to the GUI) or Windows 3.x (the first GUI environment to be a major commercial success)? - 200.82.96.168 (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

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Wrong or at least misleading text in section Xerox Parc
"The GUI was first developed at Xerox PARC by Alan Kay, Larry Tesler, Dan Ingalls, David Smith, Clarence Ellis and a number of other researchers." Not completely wrong, but pretty much misses the truth. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler_Lampson and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravo_(software) which are more accurate. Provable fact is, that the first graphical user interface on the Alto was written by Lampson and his colleagues in BCPL, not by the mentioned people and not in Smalltalk. You can even have a look at the Alto source code here: http://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/xerox_alto_file_system_archive.html. The first WYSIWIG text editor Bravo written by Lampson and Simonyi was the basis for the first DTP application Gipsy written by Tesler and Mott (see links). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.202.183.35 (talk) 23:18, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

"Current Trends" needs to be greatly expanded and a new section for GUI history post-2000 needs to be added
Despite the article going greatly in depth on the history of various early GUIs from the 80's, the history of modern GUIs that are still in use today are awkwardly slotted in as a sentence or two in the section talking about the 90's, in the same space talking about obsolete OS's such as NextSTEP, OS/2, Amiga Workbench etc. I understand that many of those OS's have modern day derivatives and reimplementations, but the article should really have a section post-2000s that talks about the consolidation of the OS marketplace into the Windows, MacOS, and Linux & more recently Chrome OS world we have today in the desktop space, how those various GUIs have evolved since then, alongside the emergence of smartphones and tablets with their Post-WIMP interfaces, how they differ from mouse-based UIs and how they've effected on the development of traditional desktop GUIs (for example Windows 8, GNOME 3, various iOS-style interfaces introduced to MacOS, etc). Like many Wikipedia articles on computing history, it seams like history ends around the mid-2000s, which I'm guessing is when these articles were last updated in a substantial form. It wasn't long ago that Wikipedia still talked about PDAs in the present tense.

The "Current Trends" section needs to be expanded greatly - at the moment there's just a tiny paragraph on smartphones and tablets which is especially jarring considering their impact on society and the fact that they're the primary computing device for many people now. In fact, are Mobile Device GUIs really a "current trend" when we're now a more then a decade out from the first iPhone and Android devices? Or that that class of GUIs owe much of their inspiration from earlier mobile devices such as PDAs like the Apple Newton, Windows Mobile/CE and Palm going back into the early 90's, something which isn't even mentioned once?

Then a much larger paragraph on "3D user interfaces" which is confusingly worded to refer to both 3D GUI prototypes such as BumpTop (which was discontinued a decade ago and largely never went anywhere) and modern GPU accelerated GUIs which relegate that power largely for some graphical effects such as drop shadows and window blur rather then substantial changes in UI paradigm. Then a few sentences on "Notebook Interfaces" which doesn't really state it's relevance to the history of GUI development as a whole, especially in a article largely talking about OS-level interfaces rather then application interfaces. On that note - should this article make reference to application UI design? And the web, where does that fit in with GUI history, especially in relation to web apps?

And a small paragraph on virtual reality that doesn't even make reference to VR-centric GUIs, on an article about graphical user interfaces? Nor any mention of AR or Mixed Reality, such as the work Microsoft is doing with Hololens, Google Glass, mobile device AR from various developers and device manufacturers etc. 82.15.131.45 (talk) 14:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

About GUI
For project 103.252.144.164 (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


text:
Man and the Biosphere Programme

Man and the Biosphere Programme (MAB) is an intergovernmental scientific program, launched in 1971 by UNESCO, that aims to establish a scientific basis for the 'improvement of relationships' between people and their environments.

MAB engages with the international development agenda, especially the Sustainable Development Goals and the Post 2015 Development Agenda. The MAB programme provides a platform for cooperation in research and development. , 727 biosphere reserves in 131 countries, including 22 transboundary sites, have been included in the World Network of Biosphere Reserves.

Biosphere reserves
Biosphere reserves are areas comprising terrestrial, marine and coastal ecosystems. Its biosphere reserves are nominated by national governments and remain under the sovereign jurisdiction of the states where they are located. Their status is internationally recognized. Biosphere reserves are 'Science for Sustainability support sites'.

Biosphere reserves have three zones:
 * The core area(s) comprises a strictly protected ecosystem.
 * The buffer zone surrounds or adjoins the core areas and is used for ecological practices.
 * The transition area is the part of the reserve where most activity is allowed.

IUCN classification
In 1996, the IUCN and MAB published a guideline for how to assess UNESCO biosphere reserves in the IUCN classification system. The IUCN distinguishes between the biosphere core area, buffer zones, transition zones, and each individual biosphere reserve. Biosphere core zones are in IUCN category I; either Ia (strict nature reserve) or Ib (wilderness area). Biosphere buffer zones would fall into categories IV, V or VI, and transition zones would be categorized as either V or VI, if possible.

Programme's structure
Participating countries establish MAB National Committees that define and implement each country's activities. MAB currently operates through 158 national committees established among the 195 member states and nine associate member states of UNESCO.

The agenda of the MAB programme is defined by its main governing body, the International Coordinating Council. The MAB Council consists of 34 member states elected by UNESCO's General Conference. The council elects a chair and five vice-chairs from each of UNESCO's geopolitical regions, one of which functions as a rapporteur. These constitute the MAB Bureau.

The MAB Secretariat is based at UNESCO's Division of Ecological and Earth Sciences, at UNESCO's headquarters in Paris, and works with field offices at national and regional levels. MAB is funded by UNESCO and mobilizes funds in trust granted by Member States, bilateral and multilateral sources, and extra-budgetary funds provided by countries, the private sector and private institutions.

The latest World Congress of Biosphere Reserves took place in Lima, Peru, from March 14–17, 2016. This will be the 4th World Congress of Biosphere Reserves.

Networks
The World Network of Biosphere Reserves are as follows:
 * The African Biosphere Reserves Network (AfriMAB) was created in 1996 and comprises 33 African countries.
 * The ArabMAB Network was officially launched in 1997 and represents 18 Arab countries.
 * The East Asian Biosphere Reserve Network was launched in 1994. Today, it consists of China, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Japan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, the Republic of Korea and the Russian Federation.
 * EuroMAB is the network of biosphere reserves in Europe and North America. Created in 1987, it is the largest MAB Regional Network with 53 countries.
 * The Ibero-American MAB Network (IberoMAB) was created in 1992. It comprises 22 countries from Latin American and the Caribbean, Spain and Portugal.
 * The Pacific Man and the Biosphere Network (PacMAB) was created in 2006 and comprises the Federated States of Micronesia, Kiribati, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa and Tonga.
 * The South and Central Asia MAB Network (SACAM) was created in 2002 and comprises Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Iran, Kazakhstan, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
 * The Southeast Asian Biosphere Reserve Network (SeaBRnet) was created in 1998. Today, it comprises Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Japan, Lao PDR, Malaysia, Myanmar, Philippines, Thailand and Viet Nam.
 * The East Atlantic Biosphere Reserve Network (REDBIOS) was created in 1994. It comprises the Canary Islands (Spain), Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau, Madeira and Azores (Portugal), Mauritania, Morocco, Sao Tomé and Principe, and Senegal.
 * The World Network of Island and Coastal Biosphere Reserves was established in 2012 and comprises 22 countries.

title: Man and the Biosphere Programme