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Charlie's Angels

Charlie's Angels is an American crime drama television series that aired on ABC from September 22, 1976, to June 24, 1981, producing five seasons and 115 episodes. The series was created by Ivan Goff and Ben Roberts and was produced by Aaron Spelling. It follows the crime-fighting adventures of three women working at a private detective agency in Los Angeles, California, and originally starred Kate Jackson, Farrah Fawcett (billed as Farrah Fawcett-Majors), and Jaclyn Smith in the leading roles and John Forsythe providing the voice of their boss, the unseen Charlie Townsend, who directed the crime-fighting operations of the "Angels" over a speakerphone. There were a few casting changes: after the departure of Fawcett, Cheryl Ladd joined; after Jackson departed, Shelley Hack joined, and she was subsequently replaced by Tanya Roberts.

Despite mixed reviews from critics and a reputation for merely being "jiggle television" (specifically emphasizing the sex appeal of the female leads), Charlie's Angels enjoyed great popularity with audiences, as it was a top ten hit in the Nielsen ratings for its first two seasons. By the third season, however, the show had fallen from the top 10. In the fifth season, the show fell out of the Top 30.

Charlie's Angels continues to have a 1970s American cult and pop culture following through syndication, DVD releases, and subsequent television shows. The show also spawned a media franchise with a film series started in 2000, which is a continuation of the series story with later generations of Angels. A reboot television series was broadcast in 2011, but was canceled after seven episodes.

Development
After the success of Police Woman, the first hour long drama starring a woman, Ivan Goff and Ben Roberts came up with the idea for a series about three beautiful female private investigators as a breakthrough but also as an escapist television series. Producers Aaron Spelling and Leonard Goldberg first considered actress Kate Jackson during the early pre-production stages of the series. She had proven popular with viewers in another police television drama, The Rookies. Jackson was initially cast as Kelly Garrett, but was more attracted to the role of Sabrina Duncan, and her request to switch roles was granted. Farrah Fawcett was next cast as Jill Munroe but, like Jackson, did not audition for a role. She was offered a part by Spelling after he had viewed her performance in the 1976 film Logan's Run. Jaclyn Smith was among the hundreds of actresses who auditioned for the role of Kelly Garrett. Despite liking Smith, Spelling and Goldberg were wary about hiring her because their initial concept concerned a brunette, blonde, and red-headed woman. Smith was the only brunette who auditioned for the role and was cast only after producers liked the on-screen chemistry she shared with Jackson and Fawcett.

Producer Leonard Goldberg had the initial idea, three years previously, for a show that would be a cross between The Avengers and Honey West, a short-lived drama from the 1960s about a female private investigator. Goff and Roberts had first titled the series The Alley Cats in which the three females (named Allison, Lee, and Catherine) would reside in alleys and wear whips and chains. Jackson disapproved of the title and, since she was given semi-control over the development of the series, she encouraged producers to find a new title. It was Jackson who decided the three women would be called "Angels" after seeing a picture of three angels hanging in Spelling's office, and the series became known as Harry's Angels. This title was changed, however, when ABC did not want to run into conflict with the series Harry O, and it thereby became Charlie's Angels.

In the initial concept of the series, the three females' boss would be a millionaire who often aided them in their assignments; however, Jackson and Spelling decided it would be more interesting to have the boss's identity remain a secret. With this, millionaire Charlie Townsend was an unseen character on the series who only spoke to the Angels via a Western Electric speakerphone. John Forsythe, who played the unseen Charlie Townsend, recorded his lines in an audio studio and was never on set. Thus, Forsythe rarely met any of his female co-stars. Some years later, he bumped into Farrah Fawcett at a tennis court, as he recalled, "I was coming off the court when she came up to me and said, 'Charlie! I finally met Charlie!'". Forsythe was offered the 'Charlie' role in a panicky late-night phone call from Spelling after the original choice, Gig Young, showed up too intoxicated to read his lines: "I didn't even take my pajamas off – I just put on my topcoat and drove over to Fox. When it was finished, Aaron Spelling said, 'That's perfect'. And I went home and went back to bed".

Spelling and Goldberg decided to add actor David Doyle to the cast as John Bosley, an employee of Charlie, who would frequently aid the Angels in their assignments. Although ABC had approved of a pilot film, they were concerned about how audiences would accept three women fighting crime on their own. ABC executives brought in David Ogden Stiers as Scott Woodville, who would act as the chief backup to the Angels and Bosley's superior; he would also be depicted as the organizer of the plan, in similar fashion to Jim Phelps in Mission: Impossible, a series for which Goff and Roberts had written.

The 74-minute pilot film initially aired on March 21, 1976. The story focuses heavily on Kelly Garrett (a role intended for Jackson before she and Smith swapped) who poses as an heiress who returns home to gain her father's successful winery. In the end of the film the three women are caught in a bind and Scott attempts to save them, but to no avail, leaving them to solve the dilemma on their own (and with the help of allies made during the story). ABC executives were somewhat disappointed in this initial project, fearing there was more emphasis on camp than serious drama. After viewing the pilot, Spelling encouraged executives to delete Scott Woodville from the series; according to The Charlie's Angels Casebook, audiences also reacted negatively to the character. Bosley was kept, made slightly less inept than depicted in the pilot, and was given many of Woodville's attributes and responsibilities. The series formally premiered on Wednesday, September 22, 1976, at 10:00pm.

The pilot film received enormous ratings, but ABC – who thought this was one of the worst ideas for a TV series they had ever heard – did not believe the figures and showed the pilot again at a later date to check. The ratings were just as high, even for a repeat screening.

Premise
In the initial concept, Sabrina Duncan, Jill Munroe, and Kelly Garrett have graduated from the police academy in Los Angeles, California. Despite proving their capability during training, all three have subsequently been assigned to be a meter maid, office worker, and crossing guard, respectively. Dissatisfied with these jobs, they are recruited to work for the Charles Townsend Agency as private investigators. All of this is explained in the opening credit sequence; neither the pilot film nor subsequent series ever actually depicted an "origin story" as they are seen to have been working as investigators for some time as of the start of the pilot.

Their boss, Charlie Townsend, who nicknames them "Angels", is never viewed full face, but is often seen from the back, mostly in the company of beautiful women. As a former detective, Charlie made many enemies, therefore to protect the Angels, as well as his own identity, Charlie gives the Angels their assignments via a Western Electric speakerphone; he never meets them face to face (Bosley being the exception), which leads to recurring queries from the Angels as to when, or if he will ever join them on an assignment.

In season two, San Francisco police academy graduate Kris Munroe takes the place of her older sister, Jill, in the trio; in the fourth season, Tiffany Welles, a Boston police academy graduate, takes Sabrina's place; and in the fifth and final season, upon Tiffany's departure, Julie Rogers, a former New York model fills the void when she is granted a temporary private detective license.

Charlie's Angels was generally formatted in the way of a procedural drama, much like the vast majority of other crime shows of the era. Many of the episodes follow a regular structure whereby a crime is committed, the 'Angels' are given the case details, and then they go undercover to solve the crime. Inevitably, the final scene takes place back at the Townsend office with Charlie offering his congratulations for a job well done. Most episodes have stand-alone plots and are usually not referenced in future episodes.

Cast changes
Over the course of its five-year run, Charlie's Angels had a series of highly publicized cast changes. The first of these took place in the spring of 1977, just after the conclusion of the first season. Fawcett turned in her resignation just before the season one finale aired on May 4, 1977. Fawcett's decision not to return for a second season triggered a lawsuit against the actress by ABC and Spelling.

During the 1977 summer hiatus of the series, ABC and Fawcett entered a legal battle over her contract. At the beginning of the series, all three female leads signed five-year contracts, and the network was insistent that they live up to their commitments. Business partners Leonard Goldberg and Aaron Spelling tried to work out a deal with Fawcett and her agents. Goldberg and Spelling had arranged for her to make one film during her summer hiatuses, and her choice over subsequent television shows and miniseries. ABC even agreed to raise her salary from $5,000 to $8,000 a week, but she declined those offers. ABC reluctantly released her from her series contract in the summer of 1977. However, she was assigned to another contract with ABC, stating that since she left her contract four years early that she would return to the series later on in its run for six guest appearances. Fawcett would return as Jill Munroe on Charlie's Angels for three guest appearances in season three, and again returned for three more in season four.

As Fawcett departed the series, ABC began searching for her replacement. Executives eventually noticed singer turned actress Cheryl Ladd and offered her a screen test. Initially, Ladd refused the opportunity for a screen test, but after lobbying from studio executives, she relented. Although executives noticed Ladd was inexperienced, they saw promise in her performance and signed her to a four-year contract. In an effort to keep the hype the series had with Fawcett, Ladd was written in the series as her sister, San Francisco police academy graduate Kris Munroe.

Ratings dropped during the third season. Jackson began to complain about the show's diminishing script quality (she once complained: "The scripts are so light it would take a week to get to the floor if you dropped it from the ceiling") and further stated that initially the series focused on "classic detective work", but had become more of a "cop story of the week". During the third season, Jackson was offered the part of Joanna Kramer in Kramer vs. Kramer (1979) with Dustin Hoffman but the Charlie's Angels producers refused to reorganize the shooting schedule to allow Jackson time off to shoot the film (the part of Joanna ultimately went to Meryl Streep, who won an Academy Award for her performance). Upset by this situation and her negative opinion of the scripts, Jackson became problematic, as she admitted, "I guess I did cause a few problems" and she was let go. In a statement, Spelling said: "Due to problems on the set, Kate is being dropped for the good of the show".

Casting calls for Jackson's replacement began during the summer of 1979. Several up-and-coming actresses were considered for the role, including Barbara Bach, Connie Sellecca, Shari Belafonte, Judith Chapman, newcomer Michelle Pfeiffer and The Price Is Right model Dian Parkinson. ABC producers auditioned Revlon Charlie perfume model Shelley Hack and cast her as Jackson's replacement. Producers at Spelling-Goldberg were quoted as saying: "We feel that Shelley Hack has exactly the talent, style, and intelligence we were looking for". Producer Spelling loved the idea of the headline "The Charlie Girl Becomes A Charlie's Angel". Hack debuted in the fourth-season premiere as Tiffany Welles, an elegant police graduate from Boston. In hiring Hack, Spelling's priority for season four was to "bring back the glamour" while ABC hoped Hack's sophisticated personality would bring an interesting new mystique and intrigue to the series. However, after an initial spike in the ratings, they began to erode, so in an attempt to revitalize declining ratings and regain popularity, ABC released Hack from her contract in February 1980. A statement later issued by Spelling-Goldberg read: "When she signed her contract for the series, Miss Hack had a personal agreement that she could review her continuation with the show at the end of her first season since series television represented an enormous change in her career and lifestyle", implying that Hack was included in the decision to exit Charlie's Angels. In an interview with People, Hack said: "They can say I didn't work out, but it isn't true. What happened was a network war. A business decision was made. Change the timeslot or bring on some new publicity. How to get publicity? A new Angel hunt. Who is the obvious person to replace? I am—the new kid on the block". Hack later stated: "I never expected to be there more than a year and I wasn't. I did my year and I moved on".

Casting calls went out for Hack's replacement. After a series of false commitments, Spelling and ABC selected model and former dance instructor Tanya Roberts, beating out Jayne Kennedy, Susie Coelho, and what Roberts skeptically called "the [other] alleged 2,000 Angel candidates". Roberts debuted in the fifth-season premiere as Julie Rogers, a streetwise fighter and model from New York, but the season premiere episode drew mild ratings. She was pictured on the cover of People magazine and featured in an article surrounding the series. The article, titled "Is the Jiggle Up?", asked if Roberts could save Charlie's Angels from cancellation. Executive Brett Garwood said that they hoped to keep the show going for next year, but nothing was certain. Between November 1980 and June 1981, the series was broadcast in three different time slots and its ratings further declined, so ABC cancelled the show in the spring of 1981.

Critical reception
Charlie's Angels became known as "Jiggle TV". Jiggle TV was also called "Tits & Ass Television" or "T&A" for short and in the 1970s the amount of sex on television increased, as did its ratings, creating social controversies and consequences, by critics who believed that the TV series had no intelligence or substance. These characterizations stemmed from the fact that the lead actresses frequently dressed scantily or provocatively as part of their undercover characters (including roller derby girl, beauty pageant contestant, maid, female prisoner, or just bikini-clad), and the belief that their clothing was a means of attracting viewers. "Jiggle TV" is seen as trashy and escapist entertainment. Farrah Fawcett once attributed the TV show's success to this fact: "When the show was number three, I figured it was our acting. When it got to be number one, I decided it could only be because none of us wears a bra". Contrariwise on TV Tales, Cheryl Ladd said "I'm just saying, personally, I wore a bra"; Shelley Hack stated: "I don't jiggle much, so I didn't have anything to worry about"; and Jaclyn Smith said, "Jiggle TV. I thought it was ridiculous".

Reflecting on the 1970s female-driven drama, Jaclyn Smith, who was the only 'Angel' to star on all five seasons, states how Charlie's Angels changed her – and TV audiences across America: "It was ground-breaking. It was about three emotionally and financially independent women. We shot at beautiful locations with fancy fast cars, and they cared about each other, so there was a heart to the show. Critics said that as actresses we were sexually exploited, but it was a nursery rhyme. We were in a bathing suit at the beach, and if there was a hint of a love scene, it was so proper. I think the producers were smart. They wanted to bring in that younger audience and did want families to watch together". Smith adds: "Each of our characters had their own unique personality, yet the show was all very cohesive - it just worked. We really were all good friends and that showed on the screen".

Ladd believed the TV series was "inspirational" to women despite the critics calling it a "jiggle show". She noted, "there hadn't been a show like this on the air [with] three powerful women who had the latest hairdos, wore the coolest clothes and could walk around in a bikini. We were very inspirational to a lot of young women. Young women would write us and say, 'I want to be like you. I want to be a cop when I grow up and taking chances to be something else other than the acceptable school teacher or secretary'". In reference to the show being called "Jiggle TV", Ladd said: "Which made me laugh, I never went braless, and I was married and the mother of a 2-year-old. The 'Angels' were grown-up Girl Scouts. We never slept with anyone; my most 'Aaron Spelling' moment was wrestling an alligator. With the feminist movement, we were kind of half-heroes, half-goats".

Hack said: "Of course it's fluff, but high-grade fluff. You don't compare Agatha Christie to Tolstoy". Additionally, referring to the Revlon Charlie commercials and Charlie's Angels, she stated on The Oprah Winfrey Show: "I was lucky. There were two things I was in that were about making women feel a little more empowered".

Kate Jackson has stated that she believes the first season of Charlie's Angels was the TV show's high point, and it was the most fun for herself, Smith, and Fawcett: "When you think about Charlie's Angels, you think about three specific people". Jackson added: "I don't know what the connection that the three of us have is, but it is there, and it is something extremely special. I think that is the reason the show worked".

Time magazine called Charlie's Angels an "aesthetically ridiculous, commercially brilliant brainstorm surfing blithely atop the Zeitgeist's seventh wave".

Camille Paglia, an American academic and social critic, said that Charlie's Angels was an "effervescent action-adventure showing smart, bold women working side by side in fruitful collaboration".

Public reception
Charlie's Angels proved to be a runaway hit in the 1976-1977 season in its first of five time slots, Wednesdays at 10:00pm, where it followed Baretta. Facing little competition from CBS and NBC, Charlie's Angels finished fifth in Nielsen ratings in the spring of 1977 with an average 26.0 rating. The three lead actresses were suddenly propelled to stardom, with Kate Jackson later commenting that the first few months were like being in the eye of a storm. Farrah Fawcett became hugely popular and was branded a phenomenon. However, the situation off screen was not as rewarding. The long working hours on set, combined with numerous calls for photo shoots, wardrobe fittings, and promotional interviews, took their toll on the trio. Jackson was especially unhappy as she felt the quality of scripts was declining and the format was now more "cop story of the week" rather than classy undercover drama, which had been the intention with the pilot film.

With season two, the series moved up an hour to the Wednesday 9:00pm time slot, where it stayed for three years. During that time, the series competed with such popular shows as One Day at a Time, The Jeffersons, and Diff'rent Strokes. The transition from Fawcett to Cheryl Ladd in the second season proved to be popular with viewers. While viewership dipped marginally in the second season, the series still remained in the top five for the 1977–78 season, placing fourth in the ratings, tying with 60 Minutes and All in the Family. In the third season, viewership stabilized, but the series began losing traction as it ranked twelfth behind newcomers Mork & Mindy, The Ropers, and Taxi for the 1978–79 season. With Jackson's departure and Shelley Hack entering the cast, the show's fourth season saw some ratings erosion as it ranked twentieth for the 1979–80 season, tying with Barney Miller.

The fifth season saw the final cast change with Tanya Roberts. The final season was plagued by the 1980 actors strike, causing a delayed premier date. In addition, the series was shuffled around with three different time slots: Sundays at 8:00pm, Saturdays at 8:00pm, and finally Wednesdays at 8:00pm, where it remained for the remainder of its run. Despite generally receiving mild competition from its rival networks on these time slots, Charlie's Angels placed fifty-ninth out of sixty-five shows for the 1980–81 season. ABC thereby canceled the series after five seasons and 115 episodes.

Nielsen ratings / broadcast history
The Charlie's Angels seventy four minute pilot film that aired on March 21, 1976, received enormous ratings, but ABC network — who thought this was one of the worst ideas for a TV series they had ever heard — did not believe the figures and showed it again a week later to check. At the time of Spelling pitching the pilot of Charlie's Angels to the network, ABC executive Michael Eisner told Spelling that his pitch had to be "one of the worst ideas I've ever heard", and ABC executive Barry Diller claimed no one would ever watch it. Despite the ABC networks disbelief in the project, the repeat ratings were just as high.

Awards and nominations
Golden Globes (1977)
 * Best Television Series - Drama, Charlie's Angels (Nominated)
 * Best Actress in a Television Series - Drama, Farrah Fawcett-Majors (Nominated)
 * Best Actress in a Television Series - Drama, Kate Jackson (Nominated)

Golden Globes (1978)
 * Best Television Series - Drama (Nominated)
 * Best Actress in a Television Series - Drama, Kate Jackson (Nominated)

Golden Globes (1979)
 * Best Actress in a Television Series - Drama, Kate Jackson (Nominated)

Golden Globes (1980)
 * Best Actor in a Supporting Role - Television Series, David Doyle (Nominated)

Primetime Emmy Awards (1977)
 * Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series, Kate Jackson (Nominated)
 * Outstanding Continuing Performance by a Supporting Actor in a Drama Series, David Doyle (Nominated)
 * Outstanding Achievement in Film Sound Editing for a Series (Nominated)

Primetime Emmy Awards (1978)
 * Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series, Kate Jackson (Nominated)

People's Choice Awards (1977)
 * Favorite Overall New TV Program (Winner)
 * Favorite Female Performer in a New TV Program, Farrah Fawcett-Majors (Winner)

American Cinema Editors, USA (1978)
 * Best Edited Episode from a Television Series (Nominated)

TV Land Awards (2003)
 * Favorite "Heard-But-Not-Seen" Character, John Forsythe (Winner)
 * Most Amazing Cast Crossover, Charlie's Angels and The Love Boat (Winner)

TV Land Awards (2004)
 * Favorite "Fan"-tastic Phenomenon, Farrah Fawcett (Winner)
 * Most Memorable Mane, Farrah Fawcett (Winner)
 * Favorite "Heard-But-Not-Seen" Character, John Forsythe (Nominated)

TV Land Awards (2007)
 * Favorite "Heard-But-Not-Seen" Character, John Forsythe (Winner)
 * TV Theme Song You Most Want for Your Ring Tone (Nominated)

TV Land Awards (2010)
 * Pop Culture Award, Charlie's Angels (Winner)

Online Film & Television Association (2015)
 * OFTA TV Hall of Fame, Television Program, Charlie's Angels (Winner)

Notable guest stars
Charlie's Angels played host to a number of well-known faces during its five seasons. Some of those individuals were long-established stars of film and television; others would find considerable fame and recognition many years after appearing in the program. Notable appearances of celebrities (whether famous then or later) include those of:

• Jack Albertson

• Richard Anderson

• René Auberjonois

• Nina Axelrod

• Jim Backus

• G.W. Bailey

• Richard Bakalyan (thrice)

• Olivia Barash

• Gene Barry (twice)

• Kim Basinger

• Ed Begley, Jr.

• Michael Bell

• Dirk Benedict (twice)

• Barbi Benton

• Lloyd Bochner

• Sonny Bono

• Barry Bostwick

• Eric Braeden

• Peter Brown

• Dr. Joyce Brothers

• Horst Buchholz

• Edd Byrnes

• Michael Callan

• Joanna Cassidy

• Kim Cattrall

• Dennis Cole (thrice)

• John Colicos

• Gary Collins (twice)

• Stephen Collins

• Bert Convy

• Pat Cooper

• Nicolas Coster

• Scatman Crothers

• Patricia Crowley (twice)

• Jamie Lee Curtis

• Brian Cutler

• Timothy Dalton

• Patti D'Arbanville

• James Darren

• Robert Davi

• Sammy Davis, Jr.

• Bradford Dillman

• Robert Donner

• Howard Duff

• Patrick Duffy

• Andrew Duggan

• Robert Englund

• Antonio Fargas

• Alan Feinstein (twice)

• Norman Fell

• Joe Flynn

• Rosemary Forsyth

• Jonathan Frakes

• Anne Francis (twice)

• Slim Gaillard

• James Gammon (twice)

• Ellen Geer

• Christopher George

• Frank Gorshin

• Fred Grandy

• Dan Haggerty

• David Hedison (twice)

• Don Ho

• Bo Hopkins (twice)

• Tab Hunter

• Joyce Jameson

• L.Q. Jones (quadrice)

• Tommy Lee Jones

• Louis Jourdan

• Elaine Joyce

• Casey Kasem

• Roz Kelly (twice)

• Sally Kirkland (twice)

• Bernie Kopell

• Martin Kove

• Fernando Lamas

• Audrey Landers

• Judy Landers (twice)

• Ted Lange

• Christopher Lee

• Joanne Linville

• Gary Lockwood

• Robert Loggia (twice)

• Ida Lupino

• Richard Lynch

• Carol Lynley

• Gavin MacLeod

• Randolph Mantooth

• Dean Martin

• Robin Mattson

• Brad Maule

• Amanda McBroom

• Mercedes McCambridge

• Sandy McPeak

• Eve McVeagh

• Denny Miller

• Ray Milland

• Vic Morrow (twice)

• Richard Mulligan

• Craig T. Nelson

• France Nguyen

• Simon Oakland

• Dan O'Herlihy

• Gerald S. O'Loughlin

• Janis Paige

• Stacy Peralta

• Joanna Pettet

• Jo Ann Pflug

• Sarah Purcell

• Robert Pine (twice)

• Dack Rambo

• Anne Ramsey

• Robert Reed

• Bert Remsen (twice)

• Peter Mark Richman

• Richard Romanus

• Cesar Romero

• Dick Sargent (thrice)

• Bob Seagren

• Tom Selleck

• Doug Sheehan

• Stephen Shortridge

• James Sikking (twice)

• Phil Silvers

• Louise Sorel

• Barbara Stanwyck

• Tisha Sterling

• David Ogden Stiers

• Christopher Stone

• Harold J. Stone

• Lauren Tewes (twice)

• Robert Urich

• Lyle Waggoner

• Mary Woronov

• Nicholas Worth

• Jane Wyman

Home media
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment released all five seasons of Charlie's Angels on DVD in region one over the span of ten years, with the fifth and final season released as a Manufacture-on-Demand (MOD) release, available exclusively through Amazon.com & WBShop.com and only in the U.S. Additionally, seasons 1–3 have been released on DVD in regions 2 and 4.

Mill Creek Entertainment acquired the rights to various television series from the Sony Pictures library including Charlie's Angels in 2013. They subsequently re-released the first season on DVD on January 21, 2014.

Mill Creek re-released Charlie's Angels: The Complete Series on DVD in Region 1 on September 6, 2016. The twenty disc set contains all 110 episodes of the series.

Mill Creek released the entire series on Blu-ray for the first time in fall 2019.

''Note: Episode count is based on the format in which episodes originally aired. Two hour episodes are counted as one episode''.

Attempted spin-off
ABC attempted to create a spin-off of Charlie's Angels in 1980 called Toni's Boys. The backdoor pilot aired near the end of season four, simply titled "Toni's Boys" (season 4, episode 23). The episode starred Barbara Stanwyck as Antonia "Toni" Blake, a wealthy widow socialite and friend of Charlie's who ran a detective agency she inherited from her late husband. The agency was staffed by three handsome male detectives — Cotton Harper (Stephen Shortridge), Bob Sorensen (Bob Seagren), and Matt Parrish (Bruce Bauer) — who took direction from Toni, and solved crimes in a manner similar to the Angels. The show was not picked up as a regular series for the following season.

Crossovers
The character Dan Tanna (played by Robert Urich) from the detective series Vega$ appeared in the episode "Angels in Vegas" a week before the Vega$ season one debut. The crossover was simply used to reintroduce the Dan Tanna character and to promote Vega$ as an ongoing series.

In the episode "Love Boat Angels", the angels went on another popular Aaron Spelling show, The Love Boat, and met the crew. Gavin MacLeod, Bernie Kopell, Fred Grandy, Ted Lange, and Lauren Tewes guest starred as their The Love Boat characters. The episode aired on September 12, 1979, as the fourth-season premiere and the debut episode of Shelley Hack as Tiffany Welles. The episode placed number one in the Nielson ratings for the week.

Although technically not crossovers, the cast made some notable appearances together. In 1976, Jackson, Smith, and Fawcett appeared as themselves on The Captain & Tennille Show. In the fall of 1977, Jackson, Smith, and Ladd appeared as themselves in the first episode of the Spelling-produced comedy series, The San Pedro Beach Bums.

Syndication
The show was first syndicated on local stations such as KTLA in Los Angeles and WNEW in New York in September 1981, and later on TNT, TV Land, Cloo, ION, Cozi TV, MeTV and getTV. , all five seasons of the show can be purchased in the USA on iTunes. , the series is still available for syndication to local television stations in the United States. , the show has aired in the U.S. on digital broadcast television networks Cozi TV and getTV and the streaming services Crackle, IMDb TV, The Roku Channel and Tubi.

Other versions
The series spawned a franchise with a film series which is a continuation of the story with new generations of Angels. It has also inspired many remakes and reinterpretations throughout the years and in different countries. It has also been featured in various other media.

Film series
The Charlie's Angels 1976 original television series inspired Flower Films production company's two films, Charlie's Angels (2000) and Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle (2003), with John Forsythe returning as Charlie. Whereas most movie remakes of 1970s TV shows, like Starsky and Hutch, are actually remakes, the Charlie's Angels films are set in a different time and thus closer to a film revival. The mythology goes that whenever an Angel leaves, she is replaced so there are always three. The second film had more nods to the TV series than the first film, with Jaclyn Smith making a brief cameo as Kelly Garrett.

Charlie's Angels is a 2000 American action comedy film based on the Charlie's Angels 1976 original television series. Unlike the original series, which had dramatic elements, the film featured more comical elements than were seen in the series. The film was directed by McG, adapted by screenwriters Ryan Rowe, Ed Solomon, and John August, and starring Cameron Diaz, Drew Barrymore, and Lucy Liu as three women working in a private detective agency in Los Angeles. Bill Murray plays Bosley and John Forsythe reprised his role as the unseen Charlie's voice from the original series. Making cameo appearances are Tom Green (who was dating Barrymore at the time of production) and LL Cool J.

A sequel, entitled Full Throttle, was released in 2003, directed by McG and written by John August, and Cormac and Marianne Wibberley. It is the sequel to 2000s Charlie's Angels, itself based on the 1976 television original series Charlie's Angels. In an ensemble cast, Diaz, Barrymore, and Liu return as the angels Natalie, Dylan, and Alex, respectively. It sees Crispin Glover and Matt LeBlanc returning, as well as featuring Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, Carrie Fisher, Shia LaBeouf, Robert Patrick, Justin Theroux, Luke Wilson, John Cleese, and Rodrigo Santoro, with Jaclyn Smith reprising her role as Kelly Garrett, and Bernie Mac as Bosley's brother. This was John Forsythe's final film appearance before his retirement and his death in 2010. The film opened in the United States on June 27, 2003, and was number one at the box office for that weekend, also making a worldwide total of $259.2 million.

Elizabeth Banks wrote and directed a new film of the franchise, starring Kristen Stewart, Naomi Scott and Ella Balinska as the leading trio of the fighting team, and Banks also star as Bosley, with the film featuring multiple characters named Bosley. It was later revealed that the new movie would not be a reboot or a remake of the franchise but rather a continuation that incorporated the events of the original TV series and the McG-directed 2000s films.

Behind the Camera
In 2004, a television film entitled Behind the Camera: The Unauthorized Story of Charlie's Angels aired on NBC; it was based on the book Charlie's Angels Casebook, by Jack Condon and David Hofstede.

Reboot
Four women (including future star Tea Leoni) were selected to be in a show called Angels '88, which was to serve as an updated version of the show. The show was later named Angels '89 after production delays, but the project was abandoned before notice was taken.

In November 2009, ABC began to make a television revival of Charlie's Angels, with Josh Friedman handling both writing and executive producing duties, and Drew Barrymore and Leonard Goldberg sharing co-production duties. Developed by Alfred Gough and Miles Millar for ABC, the reboot series premiered by the network on September 22, 2011. ABC canceled the reboot series after one month on October 14, due to low ratings and concluding on November 10, with seven episodes (the eighth and last one was unaired in the US).

International versions
From 1998 to 1999, Telemundo and Sony produced a show called Ángeles. The weekly hour format did not catch on with Hispanic viewers, who are accustomed to watching telenovelas nightly, and the series was soon canceled. In 2002, a German version of Charlie's Angels, Wilde Engel, was produced by the German channel RTL. The show was known as Anges de choc in French-speaking countries, and as Three Wild Angels in English-speaking ones. In 2004, Taiwanese version of Charlie's Angels titled Asian Charlie's Angels, was produced by the Asian channel ImaginAsian.

Subsequent Angels

 * Natalie Cook, played by Cameron Diaz in Charlie's Angels (2000) & Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle (2003)
 * Dylan Sanders, played by Drew Barrymore in Charlie's Angels (2000) & Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle
 * Alex Munday, played by Lucy Liu in Charlie's Angels (2000) & Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle
 * Madison Lee, played by Demi Moore in Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle (2003)
 * Sabina Wilson, played by Kristen Stewart in Charlie's Angels (2019)
 * Elena Houghlin, played by Naomi Scott in Charlie's Angels (2019)
 * Jane Kano, played by Ella Balinska in Charlie's Angels (2019)
 * Rebekah, played by Elizabeth Banks in Charlie's Angels (2019)
 * Ingrid, played by Hannah Hoekstra in Charlie's Angels (2019)
 * Danica Patrick, Ronda Rousey, Laverne Cox, Hailee Steinfeld, Lili Reinhart, Aly Raisman, Chloe Kim and Huda Kattan, are all appeared in cameos as the Angels in Charlie's Angels (2019)

Reboot Angels

 * Kate Prince, played by Annie Ilonzeh in Charlie's Angels (2011)
 * Abby Simpson, played by Rachael Taylor in Charlie's Angels (2011)
 * Eve French, played by Minka Kelly and young Eve, played by Taylor Blackwell in Charlie's Angels (2011)
 * Gloria Martinez, played by Nadine Velazquez and young Gloria, played by Anahi Article in Charlie's Angels (2011)
 * Zoe Sinclair / Oswald, played by Peyton List in Charlie's Angels (2011)

Unofficial Angels

 * Connie Bonnet (1988–1989), played by Claire Yarlett, in Angels '89
 * Pam Ryan (1988–1989), played by Karen Kopins, in Angels '89
 * Trisha Lawrence (1988–1989), played by Sandra Canning, in Angels '89
 * Bernie Colter (1988–1989), played by Téa Leoni, in Angels '89
 * Adriana Vega (1998–1999), played by Patricia Manterola, Ángeles
 * Elena Sanchez (1998–1999), played by Sandra Vida, Ángeles
 * Gina Navarro (1998–1999), played by Cole Pitman, Ángeles
 * Christina "Chris" Rabe (2002–2003), played by Birgit Stauber, Wilde Engel
 * Franziska Borgardt (2002–2003), played by Susann Uplegger, Wilde Engel
 * Lena Heitmann (2002–2003), played by Eva Habermann, Wilde Engel
 * Betty (2004), played by Qu Ying, Asian Charlie's Angels
 * Cindy (2004), played by Kelly Lin, Asian Charlie's Angels
 * Annabelle (2004), played by Annie Wu, Asian Charlie's Angels
 * Angie (2004), played by Christy Chung, Asian Charlie's Angels
 * Rebecca (2005), played by Vanessa Petruo, Wilde Engel
 * Ida (2005), played by Tanja Wenzel, Wilde Engel
 * Aiko (2005), played by Zora Holt, Wilde Engel
 * In Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle (2003), Eve and Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen appear as future Angels but only in Dylan Sanders' imagination.

Collectible items
During the TV show's run, Hasbro Industries produced an extensive range of Charlie's Angels merchandise, which was distributed in the US, the UK, and other international markets. A numerous variety of collectible items were produced, including two versions of dolls, board games, numerous posters, several sets of trading cards, notebooks, a lunchbox and thermos set, a Charlie's Angels toy van, children's beauty products and even record albums. Author Sherrie A. Inness, in the text 'Disco Divas: Women and Popular Culture in the 1970s' writes that "Charlie's Angels merchandise was big business, Hasbro Industries spent over $2.5 million to advertise its Charlie's Angels dolls".

In the UK, as was common with many popular US programs of the era, a series of tie-in hardcover annuals were published by World International Publishing Ltd, containing stories, comics, photos, puzzles and features on the stars. There are four Charlie's Angels annuals in total.

Although it was not connected to the show, a 1976 poster of Farrah Fawcett sporting a red bathing suit became the biggest selling poster in history with 12 million copies sold. This poster also helped the burgeoning popularity of the series. The red swimsuit that helped make Farrah Fawcett a 1970s icon became part of the Smithsonian's collection in 2011. The picture has been immortalized as a Black Label Barbie Collection doll and the legendary red bathing suit has been donated to the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. The designer of that swimsuit is Norma Kamali.

Comics
Two British comic strip versions were produced. The first appeared in the Polystyle publication Target in April 1978, drawn by John Canning. Target was a sister title to the long-running TV Comic aimed at older children and featuring TV action and crime shows of the day. Proving unpopular, it folded in August and merged back into TV Comic where Canning's Angels strip continued until October 1979. The second strip was printed in Junior TV Times Look-in, debuting in November 1979 (as soon as Polystyle's deal expired), written by Angus Allan and drawn by Jim Baikie and Bill Titcombe.

In June 2018, a six-issue limited comic book series based on the television series was launched by Dynamite Entertainment. A crossover comic book series with Charlie's Angels and The Bionic Woman, titled Charlie's Angels vs. the Bionic Woman was released on July 3, 2019.

title: Charlie's Angels


text:
SD

SD may refer to:

Military and weaponry

 * Smith & Wesson SD, a line of pistol (first made 2010)
 * SD radar, an early US Navy radar system
 * Southern Cross Decoration (SD), a South African military award

Political parties

 * Democratic Left (Italy) (2007–2010; Sinistra Democratica)
 * Social Democrats (Slovenia) (founded 1993)
 * Solidarity (Brazil) (founded 2012)
 * Democratic Party (Poland) (founded 1937; Stronnictwo Demokratyczne)
 * Sweden Democrats (founded 1988)
 * Swiss Democrats, Switzerland (renamed 1990; Schweizer Demokraten)
 * Serbian Right (founded 2018; Srpska desnica)

Other organisations

 * Sicherheitsdienst, Nazi intelligence service (1931–1945)
 * Sisters of the Destitute, a Syro-Malabar Catholic order (founded 1927)
 * Sudan Airways (founded 1946; IATA: )

Places

 * Sudan (ISO 3166 country code: )
 * A common abbreviation for the U.S. city of San Diego, California and the San Diego Padres—the city's Major League Baseball team
 * Shandong, a province of China
 * South Dakota, a US state
 * Eswatini (formerly Swaziland; SD on vehicle plates)

Astronomy

 * Subdwarf, a class of star
 * Surface detector, of cosmic rays at the Pierre Auger Observatory

Electronics and computing

 * SD card (Secure Digital), a flash memory card format
 * Software Distributor, an HP-UX system
 * Standard-definition television
 * Super Density Disc, an optical disc format
 * Stable Diffusion, a text-to-image generator

Mathematics

 * sd (elliptic function), one of Jacobi's elliptic functions
 * Standard deviation (SD), a statistical measure of variation

Medicine

 * Spasmodic dysphonia, a voice disorder
 * Stable disease, a RECIST chemotherapy outcome

Other uses in science and technology

 * Service design, holistic design of service experience
 * Spiral Dynamics, a model of individual and societal development
 * Storm Data, a US meteorological journal
 * System dynamics, of nonlinear systems

Other uses

 * Sekolah Dasar, term for primary school in Indonesia
 * Super D (cycling), a class of mountain bike race
 * Super deformed, an art style
 * Sindhi language (ISO 639-1 code: sd)
 * sine die, Latin, undated (literally without a day)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: SD


text:
Maine de Biran

François-Pierre-Gontier de Biran (29 November 1766 – 20 July 1824), usually known as Maine de Biran, was a French philosopher.

Life
Maine de Biran was born at Bergerac; died at Paris, 16 July, 1824. The name Maine he assumed (some time before 1787) from an estate called Le Maine, near Mouleydier. After studying with distinction at Périgueux, he entered the life guards of King Louis XVI of France, and was present at Versailles during the events of October 1789.

He entered politics and was part of the Conseil des Cinq Cents in April, 1797; however, as he incurred the hostility of the Directory by his royalist sympathies he withdrew to his patrimonial inheritance of Grateloup, near Bergerac, where he avoided the excesses of the French Revolution and where he devoted himself to philosophy. It was at this period that, to use his own words, he "passed per saltum from frivolity to philosophy". He began with psychology, which he made the study of his life.

After the Reign of Terror, Maine de Biran took part in politics and was elected to parliament in 1812, 1815, and 1820. Having been excluded from the Council of the Five Hundred on suspicion of royalism, he took part with his friend Joseph Lainé in the commission of 1813, which first expressed direct opposition to the will of the emperor Napoleon. After the restoration of the monarchy, he became treasurer to the Chamber of Deputies, retiring during each autumn recess to study at home.

His constitution was delicate and sensitive and his philosophic bent had already manifested itself by his observations on the influence of the physical state on the moral. As an ideologist he won the prize at the Institut with his essay "Sur l'habitude" (1802); but his "Décomposition de la pensée" (1805) shows him deviating from the theory of that school, and in "La perception immédiate" (1807), and "Rapports du physique et du morale de l'homme" (1811), he is an opponent of the eighteenth-century philosophy. In his latter days his tendency to mysticism gradually brought him back towards practical Christianity, and he died a faithful child of the Catholic Church.

He married twice in 1795 and 1814 and had a son Félix in 1796 and two daughters Eliza 1797 and Adine 1800 who all bore the new surname of Maine de Biran. His son, Félix, having only daughters, the name Maine de Biran died out in 1879 before being taken over at the end of the 19th century by the natural son of a distant niece, Françoise Gontier de Biran known as Nelly, with an unknown man.

Thought
Only a few of Maine de Biran's writings appeared during his lifetime: the essay on habit (Influence de l'habitude sur la faculté de penser, "The Influence of Habit on the Faculty of Thinking", 1802), a critical review of Pierre Laromiguière's lectures (1817), and the philosophical portion of the article "Leibnitz" in the Biographie universelle (1819). A treatise on the analysis of thought (Sur la décomposition de la pensée, "On the Decomposition of Thought") was never printed. In 1834 these writings, together with the essay entitled Nouvelles considérations sur les rapports du physique et du moral de l'homme, were published by Victor Cousin, who in 1841 added three volumes, under the title Œuvres philosophiques de Maine de Biran. But the publication (in 1859) by Édouard Naville (from manuscripts placed at his father's disposal by Biran's son) of the Œuvres inédites de Maine de Biran, in three volumes, first rendered possible a connected view of his philosophical development.

At first a sensualist, like Condillac and John Locke, next an intellectualist, he finally became a mystical theosophist. The Essai sur les fondements de la psychologie represents the second stage of his philosophy, the fragments of the Nouveaux essais d'anthropologie the third. Maine de Biran's early essays in philosophy were written from the point of view of Locke and Condillac, but showed signs of his later interests. Dealing with the formation of habits, he is compelled to note that passive impressions do not furnish a complete or adequate explanation. With Laromiguière he distinguishes attention as an active effort, of no less importance than the passive receptivity of sense, and like Joseph Butler, he distinguishes passively formed customs from active habits. He concluded that Condillac's notion of passive receptivity as the one source of conscious experience was an error of method – in short, that the mechanical mode of viewing consciousness as formed by external influence was fallacious and deceptive. For it he proposed to substitute the genetic method, whereby human conscious experience might be exhibited as growing or developing from its essential basis in connection with external conditions. The essential basis he finds in the real consciousness, of self as an active striving power, and the stages of its development, corresponding to what one may call the relative importance of the external conditions and the reflective clearness of self-consciousness he designates as the affective, the perceptive and the reflective. In connexion with this Biran treats most of the obscure problems which arise in dealing with conscious experience, such as the mode by which the organism is cognized, the mode by which the organism is distinguished from extra-organic things, and the nature of those general ideas by which the relations of things are known – cause, power, force, etc.

In the last stage of his philosophy, Biran distinguished the animal existence from the human, under which the three forms above noted are classed. And both from the life of the spirit, in which human thought is brought into relation with the supersensible, divine system of things. This stage is left imperfect. Altogether Biran's work presents a very remarkable specimen of deep metaphysical thinking directed by preference to the psychological aspect of experience.

So, it has been said there are three stages marking the development of his philosophy. Up to 1804, a stage called by Naville "the philosophy of sensation", he was a follower of Condillac's sensism, as modified by de Tracy, which he soon abandoned in favour of a system based on an analysis of internal reflection. In the second stage — the philosophy of will — 1804-18, to avoid materialism and fatalism, he embraced the doctrine of immediate apperception, showing that man knows himself and exterior things by the resistance to his effort. On reflecting he remarks the voluntary effort which differentiates his internal from his external experience, thus learning to distinguish between the ego and the non-ego. In the third stage — the philosophy of religion — after 1818, Biran advocated a mystical intuitional psychology. To man's two states of life: representation (common to animals), and volition (volition, sensation, and perception), he adds a third: love or life of union with God, in which the life of Divine grace absorbs representation and volition. Maine de Biran's style is laboured, but he is reckoned by Cousin as the greatest French metaphysician from the time of Malebranche. His genius was not fully recognized till after his death, as the essay "Sur l'habitude" (Paris, 1803) was the only book that appeared under his name during his lifetime; but his reputation was firmly established on the publication of his writings, partly by Cousin ("Œuvres philosophiques de Maine de Biran", Paris, 1834-41), and partly by Naville ("Œuvres inédites de Maine de Biran", Paris, 1859).

Equating "cause" with "force"
Schopenhauer, claimed that "No one has carried this confusion, or rather identification, of natural force with cause so far as Maine de Biran in his Nouvelles considérations des rapports du physique au moral, since this is essential to his philosophy." This confusion of force of nature and cause occurred often throughout the book. "[W]hen he speaks of causes, he hardly ever puts cause alone, but almost always says cause ou force...." Schopenhauer believed that the confusion was intentional. Biran was "conscious of identifying two disparate concepts in order to be able to make use of either of them according to the circumstances." Therefore, he purposely equated cause with force in order "to keep the identification present in the reader’s mind."

Works

 * Œuvres de Maine de Biran (edited by Pierre Tisserand, 1920–32)
 * Vol. I.
 * Vol. II.
 * Vol. III.
 * Vol. IV.
 * Vol. V.
 * Vol. VI.
 * Vol. VII.
 * Vol. VIII.
 * Vol. IX.

title: Maine de Biran


text:
Pierre Laromiguière

Pierre Laromiguière (3 November 1756 – 12 August 1837) was a French philosopher.

Life
He was born at Livinhac-le-Haut, Rouergue, and died in Paris. As professor of philosophy at the University of Toulouse, he was unsuccessful and incurred the displeasure of the French parliament by his thesis on the rights of property in connection with taxation. Subsequently, he came to Paris, where he was appointed professor of logic in the École Normale and lectured in the Prytanée. In 1799 he was made a member of the Tribunate, and in 1833 of the Academy of Moral and Political Science. In 1793 he published Projet d'éléments de métaphysique, a work characterized by lucidity and excellence of style. He wrote also two Mémoires, read before the Institute, Les Paradoxes de Condillac (1805) and Le cours de philosophie (1815–1818).

Laromiguière's philosophy is a revolt against the extreme physiological psychology of the natural scientists, such as Cabanis. He distinguished between those psychological phenomena which can be traced directly to purely physical causes, and the actions of the soul which originate from within itself. Psychology was not for him a branch of physiology, nor on the other hand did he give to his theory an abstruse metaphysical basis. A pupil of Condillac and indebted for much of his ideology to Antoine Destutt de Tracy, he attached a fuller importance to "attention" as a psychic faculty. Attention provides the facts, Comparison groups and combines them, while Reason systematizes and explains. The soul is active in its choice, i.e. is endowed with freewill, and is, therefore, immortal.

For natural science as a method of discovery he had no respect. He held that its judgments are, at the best, statements of identity, and that its so-called discoveries are merely the reiteration, in a new form, of previous truisms. Laromiguière was not the first to develop these views; he owed much to Condillac, Destutt de Tracy and Cabanis. The accuracy of his language and the purity of his style gave his works great influence, especially over Armand Marrast, Louis Cardaillac and Victor Cousin. A lecture of his in the École Normale impressed Cousin so strongly that he at once devoted himself to the study of philosophy. Jouffroy and Hippolyte Taine agree in describing him as one of the great thinkers of the 19th century.

title: Pierre Laromiguière


text:
Talk:Matsuo Bashō

Title of article
The history at Basho Matsuo says
 * 04:59, 2003 Jan 25 . . Nanshu (moved to "Matsuo_Basho")

suggesting that the following was already redundant when the following msg was placed. --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

Why has this been moved to here [bolded after the fact by Jerzy] from Matsuo Basho? I'm pretty sure that "Matsuo Basho" is the more common order of his names when he's referred to in English, and a basic principle of naming articles here is to put things under the most common English-language name. I'll move it back unless there's a reason not to. --Camembert
 * Per history of Talk:Matsuo Basho this msg was placed
 * 13:01, 2003 Jan 25 . . Camembert (about page move from switching order of names)
 * --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

 * (Since moved back after I forgot all about it - thanks) --Camembert
 * Per history of Talk:Matsuo Basho this msg was added
 * M 12:12, 2003 Jun 28 . . Camembert (correct my old braino)
 * --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

 * The history is apparently lost that said that someone, probably User:TakuyaMurata, moved a page (Matsuo_Basho would not have been explicitly mentioned there) to "Basho_Matsuo", presumably bcz the reversal of that move was done (reasonably IMO) as a simple move rather than an exchange-2-pages move: the new link Matsuo Basho created by the move of Matsuo Basho to Basho Matsuo would have had that entry, but must have been deleted to make room for the move back.

 * (The name TakuyaMurata is provided, and the account reinforced, by the history of Basho (always a link).)

 * So the un-named "here" i bolded above is now there, an example of the desirablility of clarifying "here" and "the article", especially when discussing moves. --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

 * You're quite right of course - I normally clarify these things when I write on talk pages about them. I guess I forgot on this occasion. --Camembert

Reference to Mastuo Munefusa
I was interested in this murky history bcz of the reference to Mastuo Munefusa with the surname spelled differing from "Matsuo" by a two-letter transposition. I intended to leave a note here asking for help in being sure it's a typo, but i now think that even if it were intended, the author's failure to note Basho's trick in choosing a slightly different surname, and the effort i've made re the history, would entitle me to risk that error immediately. [smile] --Jerzy 20:07, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

 * Yes, it's just a typo. --Camembert

Tnx! --Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

In another matter, i'm leaving it thus:
 * He took the name Basho ... in the 1680s when he ... became a recluse. ... He gained a reputation as a great poet and critic after the move to Edo.

Note this is agnostic abt the time relation between becoming a recluse and gaining the rep. At least the second is usually an extended process, so anything more precise might be unjustified, but i'm ignorant. Perhaps someone knows at least whether reclusion (a word?) fell during his rise. --Jerzy 20:33, 2004 Jan 20 (UTC)

Greatest writers
Regarding "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Tokugawa Shogunate" I suggest "He is widely thought of as one of the greatest writers of the Edo period"; any comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.1.54.253 (talk) 13:01, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Basho as haiku poet
User:Fg2 has posed an interesting question—do we need to talk about the change from haikai to haiku in the Matsuo Basho article? I think that since for both Japanese and non-Japanese Basho is known almost exclusively as a haiku poet, that something must be said in the article, and probably in the intro, about the fact that in his lifetime he was known as a haikai no renga poet, but today he is known as a haiku poet. Blank Verse  ∅  01:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

 * How would you feel about this: "Matsuo Bashō (松尾芭蕉 Matsuo Bashō, 1644 – November 28, 1694) was the haigo (haiku pen name) of a Japanese poet of the Edo period. He is widely credited with raising the form that would later be known as haiku to its highest level, although in his lifetime, Basho was renowned as a poet of haikai no renga (semi-comic linked verse usually created with a group of poets)." Fg2 01:17, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * That sounds okay, but the Works section should be rewritten to give more detail on him as a renga poet and diary author, with a note at the end on how he became known as a haiku poet. Blank Verse   ∅  07:24, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I only wish I had the knowledge to do that! Fg2 07:34, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have to knowledge (or at least the books with the right information), but I just need more time. First I want to finish work on the kigo article where I have one more section planned. After I add it, I want to take the Kigo article through Peer review with the idea that I will nominate the article for Featured article status. Then I will probably move on to the rather meager Kobayashi Issa article before I tackle what is need for this article.

 * After some thought, I think your ending should be changed to: "Basho was renowned as a poet of haikai no renga (a collaborative linked-verse form)."  Blank Verse   ∅  09:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The suggestion makes a lot of sense, but as you said, it should be coupled with the information about haiku somewhere in the article. Meanwhile, I really like the kigo article! If you're interested in including a photo of autumn, I've got one here. Fg2 09:42, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Italics
I've fiddled with the use of italics. I haven't been thorough, and I'm not fully happy with what I've done, but here's the reasoning.

Putting Japanese aside, there is indeed an English custom by which the title of any poem (in English) of any length is given in italics. But this is not common. If we want to be persnickety about parentheses, then The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) implies that there's one, bilingual title, and thus is wrong. The Narrow Road to the Deep North (Oku no Hosomichi) [note vertical parentheses!] is OK, but it's slightly harder for me to scan than is "The Narrow Road to the Deep North" (Oku no Hosomichi); I therefore recommend that italics are reserved for book titles, as well of course as unassimilated foreign words. (Of course if a published book titled The Narrow Road to the Deep North is cited, it should be cited in italics.) -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

"wabi/sabi"
We read: ". . . which is dominated by the concept of wabi-sabi: the identification of man with nature." While I'm no expert in this kind of thing, I'm surprised by the idea that there is a single concept of wabi-sabi (I'd thought that they were two words, each expressing a concept or cluster of concepts) and that this amalgam means "the identification of man with nature". Did something get garbled here? -- Hoary 07:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
Peer review suggested that the level of prose needed major improvement more than anything else, so I just rewrote the entire article. Apparently I used the same sources as the previous version, because not much changed by way of facts. Ashibaka tock 23:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Names
The kanji for Bashō are provided, as they should be; but those for his other names are not, which seems a pity. -- Hoary 08:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

GA failed
This article needs a copyedit very badly. Too many words and expressions are used to describe even the little things. There are too many assumptions in the article. Which means that if sources agree then say so and source the information given. Lincher 16:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you give some specific examples? Ashibaka tock 17:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I second Ashibaka's question. Actually I don't even fully understand Lincher's objection: even if the criticisms in the first three sentences are justified (and without examples I don't know), then how does this mean "that if sources agree then say so", etc.? -- Hoary 04:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples of it: And these are assumptions that need to be addressed by both views or some words need to be changed to confer a less point-of-vue orientation unless they are inline cited. And there are many other instances throughout the text that I didn't point out. Lincher 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * He was even conflicted over whether to become a full-time poet; by his own account, "the alternatives battled in my mind and made my life restless.", could this be rephrased.
 * In Edo, Bashō's poetry was quickly recognized for its simple and natural style., what is natural styled-poetry.
 * Bashō was born Matsuo Kinsaku in roughly 1644, somewhere near Ueno in Iga Province.
 * His father may have been a low-ranking samurai, which would have promised Bashō a career in the military but not much chance of a notable life.
 * No records of this time remain, but it is believed that Bashō gave up the possibility of samurai status and left his home.
 * Biographers have proposed various reasons and destinations, including the fanciful possibility of an affair between Bashō and a Shinto miko named Jutei.
 * In any case, his poems continued to be published in anthologies in 1667, 1669, and 1671, and he published his own compilation of various authors, Seashell Game (貝おほひ Kai Ōi?), in 1672.
 * In roughly the spring of that year he moved to Edo to further his study of poetry.

 * I think I understand a few of these. For example, "His father may have been a low-ranking samurai" might prompt an explanation of the evidence, and the tenuousness of the evidence, for this claim. In others, I'm lost. For example, are you saying that for example "In roughly the spring of that year" is more POVish or has a greater need for sourcing than does "In the spring of that year"? -- Hoary 13:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is better to use less words so In the spring of that yearref ... I want to know where is somewhere near? I want to have more information or insight into the opinionated words used like but it is believed or the fanciful possibility (that is clear POV).
 * I have also noticed that you say He returned to Edo in the summer of 1685, taking time to write more hokku and comment on his own life: and later When Bashō returned to Edo he happily resumed his job as a teacher of poetry at his Bashō Hut which mentions two times that he returned to Edo could we have a date for the second date or if it is the same Edo trip could one instance be removed.
 * The text Apparently this poem became instantly famous is really POV by the fact that we do not know who stated that the poem became famous. What does instantly famous mean back 400 years ago, the same as famous in our days ... like after the release or the year after. .... contributed by Lincher
 * You make some good points, but some seem bizarre to me. Of course the return to Edo mentioned above is a single return to Edo: to say it once before a relevant quotation and to repeat it immediately thereafter (as a minor nudge to the reader) seems excellent prose style to me. (This is not self-congratulation: the prose isn't mine.) In addition, this was hardly an "Edo trip": he lived in Edo (if rather restlessly). Secondly, I see nothing "opinionated" about "it is believed". It's a straightforwardly factual statement that this is what is commonly believed. (One might of course have other objections concerning lack of clarity: believed by every Bashō scholar? By most? By a bare majority? Believed on what grounds? Etc.) -- Hoary 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ashibaka tock 03:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 'could this be rephrased.' -- I don't know what confuses you about it.
 * "the fact that we do not know who stated that the poem became famous" -- I give the evidence in the clause immediately following it; there weren't newspapers around to archive but we do have a record of that contest. It has been a famous poem ever since.
 * "Bashō was born Matsuo Kinsaku in roughly 1644" -- I don't understand how this is POV. They didn't have birth certificates at that time in Japan; historians can only estimate.
 * "His father may have been a low-ranking samurai" -- This isn't POV either, it is inferred by Japanese historians because he hung out with nobles and was given a samurai name. I could include this in the article, but this is an encyclopedia, not a term paper. I don't think there is any use of watering it down with something like "Historians believe," it's not like anyone besides historians cares to disagree.
 * "including the fanciful possibility of an affair between Bashō and a Shinto miko named Jutei." -- We know Jutei was alive and living in Iga-ken at the time, and much later she is recorded as visiting Basho in Edo. So, daydreaming Japanese historians think this might have happened. Summary: it's a fanciful possibility.
 * "No records of this time remain, but it is believed that Bashō gave up the possibility of samurai status and left his home." -- because the next thing you know he was living in Edo, publishing books quite unbecoming of a samurai. There are concievably other possibilities too. Maybe he was abducted by aliens.
 * "In any case" -- this is called a conjunction. Conjunctions connect independent statements. If you are unsure how conjunctions work Wikipedia has an article explaining them. Generally, conjunctions are unbiased and make articles better and easier to read. (notable exception: "George Bush is president, but the world keeps turning.")
 * "In roughly the spring of that year" -- I don't know how to explain this to you without being even more condescending so I will stop here.

 * You have made your point loud and clear. Thanks for demystifying these few passages for me as I now am able to clearly interpret the text (sorry for my arrogance at times or my ignorance at others). As these clarifications asked are now seen in a new light, bring back the article to GA, as the comments given by me are now rendered senseless giving the article the criteria it needed for the GA. Lincher 03:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Woah, edit conflicted, I was about Bowlderize some of my bile and sarcasm :) Thank you for taking it well. Ashibaka tock 03:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

 * GA promoted. Lincher 16:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Link to Spanish translation, and to Japanese
There have been various attempts to link to a site offering Oku no hosomichi in Spanish and Japanese. These have been reverted as "spam", which seems an undeservedly harsh term. I don't see why this article needs a link to a Spanish translation, but right now it doesn't have a link to a Japanese version. On the other (third?) hand, I'd be inclined to think that there's a scholarly Japanese site with a Japanese version -- but characteristically, I'm too lazy to investigate this thoroughly. Comments from one or two people who (unlike me) are well informed about Oku no hosomichi would be welcome. -- Hoary 10:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * My problem with the link is its spam nature (the advertising on the site) and that it's foreign language. -- JHunterJ 11:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The matter of foreign language aside for the moment, what advertising? I don't see any advertising whatever, and I hadn't realized that my browser's junk-cutting settings were that good.
 * What I wonder about are:
 * As there is already an article on Oku no hosomichi, why does this article too need a link to any site specifically about the work?
 * Where does the Spanish version come from, and can we be assured that there's no copyright violation?
 * Where does the Japanese version come from, and can we be assured that there's no copyright violation?
 * (For the last of these, cf Shakespeare. Yes of course his works are (in principle) in the public domain, but most people use editions that are most certainly not in the public domain. You can't simply scan and upload the New Arden edition of this or that.) -- Hoary 14:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You may need to disable your popup blocker(s) and return to the site to see the (popup) ad -- which probably comes from geocities broadly and not this page in particular. (I agree with the rest of your points.) -- JHunterJ 14:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, citations are missing
The summary for this recent edit, part of which I am about to revert, is footnotes are in Harvard format.

This is bizarre, in that there are no footnotes.

Let's take "footnotes" to be a sleepy mistake for "references" or "citations". It's still bizarre, as a grand total of one assertion is referenced: "He had a great many visitors, and a male disciple by the name of Tsuboi Tokoku (坪井 杜国) who may have become his lover, although there does not seem to have been any contemporary interest in their relationship. (Crompton 2003)"

Even this looks pretty feeble, as "Crompton 2003" is an entire book that's purportedly about "homosexuality and civilization" in general and thus is unlikely to devote many words to Bashō. Why no page number(s)? Moreover, my suspicions about the value of Crompton's work, expressed above months ago, seem simply to have been ignored. (And finally, I'm puzzled by what seems to be a bit of an obsession in WP articles about unconfirmed rumors of bisexuality, which often [as here] aren't shown to have any significance even if true.)

Let's return to the article. It's bristling with assertions. Where do they come from, or where may one check to see that they also appear in a reliable source? My guess is that they come from Ueda's books Matsuo Bashō and Bashō and His Interpreters, but this is not made clear. Neither is the relationship between "References" and "Bibliography".

The   flag, which I am about to add, should removed when useful citations are added, and not before. -- Hoary 02:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

 * That single sentence was added into the article by someone else than me; you can remove it if Compton is a questionable source. Everything else was written entirely by me and comes from those books. If you think my MLA-style references aren't good enough, you're going to be waiting a long time for me to take the books out of the library again and footnote each little page, because I sure as fuck am not going to do that for you. So basically, you're going to add a pastel box that doesn't improve the article at all. Ashi b aka tock 14:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I reluctantly consult a copy of the 4th edition (a recent one, though not the latest) of the boring MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers. In §4.2 "MLA style" (pp 104-5), it tells us that MLA style is to use inline citations such as "(Marcuse 197)", adding a bibliography in which the reader may see that "Marcuse" is Sibyl Marcuse's book A Survey of Musical Instruments and necessary publication info. But look, I've no more wish to dwell on what this or that particular MoS says than you do, and I'll stick that book back on its shelf where it may deservedly gather more dust. I've never thought nor intentionally suggested that the article should specify the precise location of the authority for each of its assertions. Saying that the entire content of the article (now that I've deleted the speculative gay trivia) comes from one or other of those two books would be a big start. In fact I'll do it right now. Then the pastel box can be deleted, though I suppose the article should eventually give the precise location of each quotation. -- Hoary 02:13, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It just annoyed me that the only contributions made to my article have been vandalism and an uninformative pastel box. Ideally, I would have more than 2 sources and footnotes would be both helpful and necessary, but Mr. Ueda was the only author I could find in the Boston Public Library. Ashi b aka tock 23:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that there should be more than two named sources. That was very definitely not my point, which was that as it stood, the article-plus-three-references combo could have been taken to mean: "The speculative gay trivia comes from Compton, some editor who added something (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used one book by Ueda, another editor who added something else (he/she didn't note what, and now nobody knows) used another book by Ueda, and the rest is the predictable mishmash of stuff recycled from dodgy websites, hazily remembered from long-ago readings of subsequently mislaid paperbacks, etc. (And if you don't like that, remember that this is the 'encyclopedia' anyone is free to edit!)" Aarghhh. Despite having perpetrated dozens of footnotes in my time, I don't much like them and certainly don't like obsessiveness in referencing. But there has to be some "middle way" or whatever. ¶ :Don't get me started on userboxes..... Hoary 00:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

What quotations?
Several of his students compiled quotations from him about his own poetry It might be useful to give some of these quotations, as it is otherwise almost impossible to judge their nature. Shinobu 03:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Inline citations
I note that this article appears to have some references and a bibliography. That's good. But it would be better if facts in the article were cited inline using. Shinobu 05:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Shii
User Shii's rudely worded removal of text today in violation of WP:OWN has been undone-you'll have to come up with something better than "my article" for a reason. This is nobody's article, and everyone's. Chris 21:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Last year I submitted this entire article, complete and in the form you currently see, under the GFDL for people like you to improve. The only thing that has changed about it in the past year is someone added a flippant quote from Caddyshack and a poem someone's rich uncle wrote who is not Basho, and you reverted me when I excised this worthless trivia and called me names because I was upset about the degradation of my article. So, let's break this down: I kneaded the bread, I baked the bread, I gave the bread to you for free, and you shat on the bread. Fuck you. Shii (tock) 20:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Robbie Basho, etc.
I read:

 * 1960s musician Robbie Basho, who released many albums on John Fahey's famed Takoma record label, was brought up Daniel R. Robinson by his adopted parents. Upon discovering the poetry of Matsuo Bashō he decided to change his name to Robbie Basho. The current German guitar player Steffen Basho-Junghans incorporated the Basho into his name after becoming interested in the poetry of Matsuo Bashō through the music of Robbie Basho.

Even if these assertions are true (and no evidence is presented), none of this tells me anything about Basho except that he's at least moderately well known (which is obvious from other phenomena such as the number of editions of his works). It struck me as trivia, and I therefore removed it. -- Hoary 06:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I Don't Get it
I have studied Basho. I have studied Japanese history, literature, and a whole bunch of other crap. I have lived in Japan. I have seen references to Basho's having been a ninja numerous times in numerous places, both as a part of my studies as well as directly from relatively learned Japanese people. I put in a nice section on this, which, as I noted is also included on wikipedia entries on Basho in other languages, as well as supplying a reference, only to have it ripped out unceremoniously as "tosh". 204.15.3.5 17:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

 * That Bashō was a ninja would be a remarkable claim, so it would need to be backed up by particularly solid source. That people speculate that he may have been a ninja is a far less interesting claim, but it might be worth mentioning if those speculating were scholars in relevant areas (and not merely denizens of the blogosphere or febrile contributors to message forums). So let's have the sources. When I cut the section (and yes, called it "tosh"), I did so because the only citation was a chatty paragraph or so from the writer of a guidebook, who claimed that unspecified people were talking about ninja. This kind of stuff makes a pleasing aside to (or blurb for) a guidebook, but it's nowhere near good enough for an encyclopedia. For an editor (you, me, anyone else) to say that he has heard such and such directly, even from a named and learned source (let alone from unspecified "relatively learned Japanese people") just doesn't cut it: please see Verifiability. -- Hoary 23:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

 * PS I now notice this edit, whose summary reads:  this time with ref -- I could supply a dozen more -- even Wikipedia articles in other languages see fit to include the ninja lore: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsuo_Bash%C5%8D . In the state in which I'm reading it now, the it:WP article on Bashō says no more, I think, than: Il suo rapido incedere faceva pensare alcuni che Basho [sic] potesse essere stato un ninja. No elaboration, no naming (and shaming?), no source for the generalization. While my ability to read Italian is extremely limited, I get the distinct impression that the Italian article is poor as a whole, and that this is a particularly shoddy part of it. Wikipedia articles are not acceptable as sources for other Wikipedia articles, and this it:WP article is rather obviously unacceptable. -- Hoary 23:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, I've done a quick literature search. JSTOR turns up nothing relevant. No Google hits turn out, except a few about Ueno, and a few which were no more solid than reporting hearsay, although one has the amusing quote:

"'Because they were well disguised, some have even suggested Matsuo Bashō, a traveling poet, was actually a ninja employed by the shōgun to keep a watch over daimyō, and that haiku he published were really secret codes telling other ninja some unknown secrets. This is a view dismissed by almost all historians.'"

 * Another good one:

"'The bus to Kisakata, the following day, took us through emerald glens. Someone said Basho allegedly embarked on his Oku no Hosomichi odyssey because he was really a ninja and was on an intelligence-gathering mission for the Tokugawa shogunate. I laughed at the thought of a ninja weeping, as the sentimental poet often described himself doing.'"

 * And finally, if we aren't convinced yet:

"'Some people, though, have tried to read even more into Basho’s life and work. In recent times, a bizarre theory has spread. It claims that Basho was actually a ninja spy for the shogunate, sent to Tohoku to report on any unrest that might be fermenting in the provinces; accordingly, his haikus are supposed to be coded missives. There’s no real evidence for this, but some of the arguments are intriguing. The conspiracy theorists point to the fact that Basho covered 2500km on foot in 150 days (sometimes 50km a day) at the ripe old age of 46; only certain ninja, they say, were able to accomplish this, using methods of running and walking that used minute amounts of energy. He was also able to gain access to high-level feudal territory, apparently impossible for ordinary people. Adding fuel to the rumours is the undeniable fact of the poet’s early employment history (many ninja were also samurai), as well as the nature of his birthplace, in the Iga province – home of the famous Iga Ninja school.'"

 * Yeah, so I think those clinch it. Just to double-check, I even went through my Donald Keene books and drew a blank.
 * So anon, you may well have all the experience and knowledge you claim, but you wouldn't be the first expert to believe in a crazy theory and you won't be the last. I just don't see why it should be included. --Gwern (contribs) 01:36 31 October 2007 (GMT)

To do the IP justice, I don't think he has suggested that he subscribes to the notion that Bashō was a ninja. He does, however, believe that other people do subscribe to this notion; moreover, that these people are sufficiently numerous or well-read for the belief to be notable. (Compare the popular Japanese belief in a blood-type "theory" of personality: Complete bollocks, of course, but the fact that people believe it is itself of some note; it even gets its own article here. And of course the simple souls who earnestly compile en:WP articles on aidoru tarento etc dutifully add this "information" to them.) Further, the IP did adduce the Sellars quote.

 * So what do we have? Three informal web pages that each claim that some people (unnamed) subscribe to this notion. That's it (so far). The notion itself is highly dubious and the belief in it seems non-notable. -- Hoary 02:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I can and will supply more refs, but part of my point is that even though (and I'll concede this point) most historians do not find merit in the idea, it's still worth noting that there is this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.174.92.164 (talk) 00:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

 * To further elaborate, I want to make it clear that in no way do I think that Basho was a ninja, my point is that at a certain point it becomes worthy of note simply because that idea exists. Homeric Question is one such example -- debate did swirl around this issue at one point, but the poems origins in oral tradition are widely accepted by scholarly opinion. (sorry for not signing last time, I'll also admit to being a newb.) 75.211.149.131 16:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Nope, came up empty after going through all the relevant books in my library. It's been something like 15 years, but I was fairly certain I'd be able to turn something up. I relent.67.161.53.9 22:27, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow! I must say picturing our dear Bashō as a kick-ass ninja is almost funnier than all those Pirates versus Ninjas jokes! • H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈   {KLAT}  • 20:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I think there is a place for a short sentence or two mentioning the theory. Yes it may not be well respected among scholars but that is the case for the 'Shakespeare was Marlowe/Earl of Oxford/Elizabeth I's son, etc' conspiracy theories too and that merits a mention on the Shakespeare wiki page. (For the record I don't believe in any of these Shakespeare authorship theories but I certainly don't think any mention of the fact that the theory exists ought to be suppressed.) As the User above says, it's not a question of whether one agrees with it or not, more that it is a popular and famous enough theory that it ought to be included. See for example this book, which is solely about the theory. Entitled 'Was Basho a ninja?' in Japanese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.220.224.42 (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Delisting GA
I am delisting this article as a GA because on the fact that there are inline citations, failing 2b, "factually accurate and verifiable" under the good article criteria (WP:WIAGA). Wizardman 21:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? This article is just as accurate and verifiable as it has always been. Restoring GA. Shii (tock) 05:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Makoto Ueda copyvio?
Use of Ueda's translations of Bashō hokku here looks like a straightforward copyvio. Is there some reason to believe this isn't the case? --Yumegusa (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Fair use FTW. Let's see, less than 500 words, less than a third of the article, they are used in context, they are attributed, used for scholarly nonprofit purpose, do not replace the original book... Looks like a pretty solid example of fair use to me. --Gwern (contribs) 16:43 3 June 2008 (GMT)

Thanks Gwern. Though I've come across positions conflicting with your interpretation elsewhere in WP (no, I don't remember where), I'm happily assured now. --Yumegusa (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Defaultsort for names (and pseudonyms) of historical figures
My recent edit to make Bashō appear in categories (such as Japanese poets) under B (rather than M for Matsuo)(viz. ) has been undone. This seems absurd since the poet is universally known by his pseudonym Bashō (or Basho) rather than his family name Matsuo. MOS:JP does not appear to address the issue directly, but I have raised the question on its associated Talk page. I'd be grateful for any clarification/explanation of policy or further discussion, there. Thanks --Yumegusa (talk) 13:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

dab page
I've opened a discussion at Talk:Basho regarding that dab page and whether 'Basho' should link to it or should redirect to this article. All interested editors are invited to participate.--Yumegusa (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Translations section
I wonder about the recent addition of "The Essential Haiku" to the list in the Translations section. Upto this point, it has been limited to translations of Bashō only, rather than collections which include his work among others. The list could get extremely long and unwieldy if it was to include everything that happens to include him. Thoughts, anyone? --Yumegusa (talk) 17:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll take that as agreement that the section should be limited to translations either exclusively or primarily of Bashō, and remove Hass's Bashō, Buson, & Issa. --Yumegusa (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Conflicting publication dates for Oku no Hosomichi
In the article section Oku no Hosomichi, we read, "The first edition was published posthumously in 1702" for which I have requested a cite, while under "List of works" we are told that it was published in 1694, with a ref to the 1948 Japanese-language Kokusai Bunka Shinkōkai (国際文化振興会). Puzzlingly, there is no mention of publication date in the main article Oku no Hosomichi. Any clarification would be welcome. --Yumegusa (talk) 09:54, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, Google Books yields ample results for both hosomichi 1694 and hosomichi 1702, and I have added a cite for the latter publication date. However, we are now in the situation where we have two contradictory referenced pieces of information presented as fact, which is not satisfactory. Perhaps some more experienced editor can suggest a solution? --Yumegusa (talk) 11:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I checked my Keene books, but little dice. Keene does say that Basho finished writing The Narrow Road in 1694, but omits any publication date. Possibly copies began circulating on completion in 1694 but formal publication only in 1702? --Gwern (contribs) 21:17 19 May 2009 (GMT)

 * Thanks Gwern. Yes possibly. But what is the best solution for the article? Current position seems untenable, but it can't be the first time two referenced pieces of contradictory info have surfaced. What does one do? --Yumegusa (talk) 21:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Mention them both with sourcing, if no better references turn up. --Gwern (contribs) 21:45 20 May 2009 (GMT)

 * Minor detail, but the section on Oku no Hosomichi seems to say that Basho's journey began May 1689, lasted 151 days, and ended in late 1691. One of those three figures must be incorrect, or perhaps the paragraph is confusing and could use some revision.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.10.115.129 (talk) 16:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Added a book
I added a translated works but I am struggling to find the ISBN. Any suggestions? TheTallSarge (talk) 00:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the same book as Ueda, Makoto (1982). The Master Haiku Poet, Matsuo Bashō. Tokyo: Kodansha International. ISBN 0-87011-553-7.--Yumegusa (talk) 11:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Upload
Should his poems be uploaded to wikicommons. They are after all hundreds of years old and well past copyright laws.Ink Falls (talk) 14:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Of course Basho's poems in their original Japanese are out of copyright, but that doesn't apply to most modern translations. --Yumegusa (talk) 16:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Proper name format
I see huge problems with the way Bashō's name is handled in this article: In sum, the whole thing is confusing, because Japanese and English norms and standards are being used at the same time and not explained sufficiently well. Might someone please address this issue as soon as possible? I just thought I'd speak my mind and ask nicely before personally dealing with (at least) the third point. • H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈   {KLAT}  • 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) The initial Japanese name template correctly gives Matsuo to be the family name, but it's not specified that Bashō is the pen name (that is, not even a proper given name), not even in the lead section. This might greatly confuse the occasional reader.
 * 2) Speaking of pen names: only Sōbō is listed as a pen name in the Infobox. Shouldn't Bashō (and others we know of—with clear references, thank you) be there as well?
 * 3) The "English translations" subsection and "References" section both display "Matsuo, Bashō" as if we would regularly say Bashō Matsuo rather than Matsuo Bashō. This is totally unacceptable, given that all books—the English ones at least, to my knowledge—use Bashō as if it were the last name. There's even the little " " reminder to encourage editors to continue this incorrect practice (in my opinion). If a book displays "Matsuo Bashō" on its cover and inside, then it's not the place to be a purist: you write what you see, not what you want to see. The most this practice can do is mess up people's mind. We editors might understand the whole thing, but think about those who know squat about this weird, ancient, exotic stuff that is Japanese poetry from more than 300 years ago.
 * I'd like to thank our fellow editor Oda Mari for graciously and constructively taking care of points 1 (partially) and 2 (completely). •  H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈   {KLAT}  • 10:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Format of haiku
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but is there a reason the haiku are formatted like this?

 * toshi kurenu / kasa kite waraji / hakinagara
 * another year is gone / a traveler's shade on my head, / straw sandals at my feet [1685]

Instead of something like this?

 * {| style="background:transparent;"

kasa kite waraji hakinagara'' a traveler's shade on my head, straw sandals at my feet
 * style="width:150px;"| ''toshi kurenu
 * style="width:150px;"| ''toshi kurenu
 * style="width:250px;"| another year is gone
 * }

Would anybody else prefer a different format?AerobicFox (talk) 06:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I think that, when it comes to Wikipedia, both styles are acceptable. The first (linear) option has the slight advantage of taking up less space; also, it kinda matches the way the haiku are usually written in Japanese: one straight line without break. The second (verse) option is, I guess, more Occidental-friendly as it nicely divides the poem the way we are used to writing and reading poetry, with the line-by-line translation neatly facing it.
 * Now, both styles—the first with minor differences—are featured in the "Haiku" article, so I conclude that nobody has determined the way it should be presented. For further inquiry or to appeal to those who might take an interest in the matter (other than us...), you might wanna take it to the WikiProject Japan and check out the MoS page for Japan-related articles. To sum it up, I believe both are actually fine, but the second one, in my humble opinion, looks and reads better. • H☼ωdΘesI†fl∉∈   {KLAT}  • 22:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Hmmm... the Japanese don't really write Haiku as one line, but typically 3 vertical lines. If I'm mistaken or if there are circumstances where they do this then please let me know, but I'm almost completely certain that Haiku is never written as one straight line.
 * Typically when writing about poetry the first style is used for giving inline quotations of poetry such as:

 * Emily Dickinson wrote "Because I could not stop for Death— / He kindly stopped for me— " These opening lines demonstrate the alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter used throughout the poem.

 * Versus a block quotation such as:

 * In "Because I could not stop for Death" Dickinson begins with:
 * Because I could not stop for Death-
 * He kindly stopped for me—
 * The Carriage held but just Ourselves—
 * And Immortality.
 * This opening passage demonstrates the alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter used throughout the poem.

 * I'll go ahead and take it up at the Japan MOS and see if we can get some guidance and possibly include a future guideline, and I'll see what we are doing about poetry in the current MOS for English.AerobicFox (talk) 00:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

In Edo period, it was customary to write haiku in one line, as the photo of this page shows. Three-line format is of modern origin.--116.80.246.192 (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Who shared with him his love for Haiku
I edited this Because in Japanese language is written following. When he was 13 years old his father died and his elder brother took the house. From little age he was sdudied that Life is Painful.Basho (not his real name)was a servant at the samurai family Yoshitada, taking care of senior of Yoshitada Kitamura Gin who was two years older him. His boss was lover of cicada singing and poetry. After his death in 1666 Basho moved to the another city doing construction job. Haikago (talk) 14:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There is nothing in the text you quote to support your edit. I have reinserted the information you deleted, and provided a supporting reference to Ueda. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 15:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

On or off the road
I found this phrase confusing "Bashō traveled alone, off the beaten path, that is, on the Edo Five Routes, which in medieval Japan were regarded as immensely dangerous"

Did he travel off the Edo Five Routes? Or did he travel on them, but they were still dangerous? If he traveled on them, then "off the beaten path" isn't the right phrase, even if they were dangerous.

Influenced in Infobox
I commented out the "Influences=" parameter to suppress the warning message informing reader that Infobox writer does not use this paramater (any longer).

Influences=Imagism, Beat Generation; Robbie Basho, Steffen Basho-Junghans

--Kiyoweap (talk) 01:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Dates of early hokku publications
At the time of writing, there is a request for clarification on this sentence:

"In 1526, two of Bashō's hokku were printed in a compilation."

Have I misunderstood, or is this a typo? Bashō was not born until 1644. 165.142.249.81 (talk) 06:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 30 June 2020
For the recently closed requested move, please see Talk:Basho (disambiguation).  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 21:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Letting us know 15 minutes after the discussion closes is a little late, don't you think? ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 01:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The original link to the discussion was Talk:Basho. One of the consequences of the move request was to redirect Basho to Matsuo Bashō, which of course means that Talk:Basho gets redirected to Talk:Matsuo Bashō. This post was meant only as a courtesy notification for editors who still linked to the original Talk:Basho link. That is all.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 02:49, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Hokku or Haiku ?
Here in Japan they are generally called haiku now in the 21st century, though as pointed out in the article haiku originate in the starting verse of linked verses (renga) or hokku. After this introduction however, when referencing Basho's poetry the word hokku continues to be used. This seems to me to be inappropriate. Timtak (talk) 01:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matsuo Bashō