text:
Talk:Protests against the Iraq War

Boston
There were some big (for Boston) protests at various times, but I can't see any mention of them. I was at a really big one during the fall of maybe 2003? Don't recall if it was just Boston or multiple cities that time. Also, Boston had weekly protests starting from the passage of the PATRIOT Act and those organizers were key in putting those big protests together. Would love to see more about that. Boston activists have a lot of ties to NYC activists. In Boston most of the organizers were former Vietnam protesters and veterans of civil disobedience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.180.8.57 (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Archived talk
Talk:Protests against the Iraq War/Archive 1: 1) Attendence/Merge/Numbers etc, 2. Why can't people unite?, 3. Protests on different days, 4. Orrder, 5. Numbers in Amsterdam, 6. Global protests against war on Iraq (pre-war), 7. demonstrations for & against this war, 8. Afghanistan Protests, 9. Media, 10. Moved here from Talk:Global protests against war on Iraq (pre-war), 11. Source for list, 12. Web archive URL,13. Error, 14. Cairo Anti war conference, 15. Clean up, 16. This article or section should be merged with 2003 Invasion of Iraq, 17. Page title, 18. February 15th Protest (London), 19. Global protests against the invation of Iraq?

Role of this article in the pages on the anti-war movement, and organization of related articles
After having looked at the article for February 15th Protest (London), and looking at the corresponding article section for it on Protests against the invasion of Iraq, it makes me wonder about the role that the latter article should play in organizing information about large-scale protests on the war in Iraq.

As more anti-war protests occur (there's a big one in DC coming up on September 24), this page is going to get really long. I already consider it bordering on unwieldy, carrying things like the big table with the attendance numbers for all the various cities on February 15 (which I think would be more appropriate for an expanded February 15th Protest (London) article - see below). As it is, the article is already 34KB long, and according to Article size is getting to the point where it should be addressed.

The way I see it would make some changes where things should go. Big global days of action like February 15 should be an article all to themselves. Let me use the February 15, 2003 Global Day of Action as an example. The article on the protests worldwide on that day would be an article entitled February 15, 2003 Global Day of Action or thereabouts. Then we could list details about events in all the cities where events occurred. Then we could merge February 15th Protest (London) into that new article, turning February 15th Protest (London) into a redirect to the new February 15, 2003 Global Day of Action article, which would also contain that table with attendance numbers for the various cities participating. That would leave the Protests against the invasion of Iraq article to have a number of "Main article: (Whatever)" links on it, and shorter descriptions where there exists a full article about the day.

I hope what I've described makes at least some sense, but it ought to keep things from getting too big and unwieldy, and also better organize what we've got going here. Please let me know what you think and any questions you may have.

Schuminweb 19:26, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The merge is complete. The new article is February 15, 2003 Global Day of Action.  Schuminweb 04:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I def' agree with what ur saying. Moving alot of the Feb 15 stuff out has trimmed the article but it is still to big (as I write it is 31 kilobytes) and like you say there are probally more demo's to come (There will be a demo in London tomorrow along with one in DC) also I expect that there is stuff from the past that is still missing (I have just added some more info). The page contains alot of stuff on demo's the week after the war began prehaps we should have a page like Anti-war protests in the week following the Iraq invasion (or something shorter!).--JK the unwise 18:41, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * My ultimate goal is to see this page reduced even further, closer to a list, with very brief descriptions if any on that page. I'm also in support of splitting the article into pieces, if we can figure out a good way to split it.  Let's not split anything yet - first I want to think about it for a while.

 * I also am going to write the description for the S24 demonstration, which will happen in less than 12 hours at the time of this writing, as I plan to be there.

 * Schuminweb 03:36, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Missing Key Protests
Please consider including the work of PMR (Port Militarization Resistance). There were ten days worth of protest last May (2006) at the Port of Olympia. Hundreds of protesters blocked Stryker vehicles deploying ahead of troops to Iraq. 33 people were arrested over ten days. Now, Tacoma PMR is currently (as of March 11th 2007) protesting another shipment of Strykers out of the Port of Tacoma ahead of troops. The police have used excessive force, gassing protesters on the night of March 9th, early into March 10th. PMR's position is that the troops will not deploy if the shipments can be stopped. This article also fails to mention the Citizens hearing on the legality of the war back in January, as well as resistance from Iraq war vetrans, and Lt. Watada, who was court marshalled for refusing to deploy. Some sources to include/ sites with more information and press releases= www.couragetoresist.org, www.thankyoult.org, www.omjp.org, http://www.omjp.org/OlyPort.html, http://www.omjp.org/PortMay06.html, and http://www.omjp.org/Port2007.html. You can also go to google news and google "Port of Tacoma" for news articles. You tube contains footage, as well as an interview with two PMR members. Please consider adding this information to the article.24.18.106.13 21:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

More text, less images - here's why
I removed a lot of images from this page tonight, in order to continue to clean up and shorten this article. The way I see it, thus my rationale for this change, is that this page should function less as a full article about all these different protests, or a collection of short articles on these protests, but rather as a list of different protests with descriptions, with links to separate articles on protests as appropriate (think February 15, 2003 global anti-war protest).

Thus as far as images go, the only ones I left are ones that are exclusive to this article. That's all of two photos. Of course, for larger protests, I'd like to see more separate articles. But we shall see... Schuminweb 03:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Search for references
Some of the demonstrations on this page are saddly lacking in referances :-(. In orrder to fix this I have done a search for "anti-war demonstrations" on the BBC internet page . I have dumped the results here. Most of it is about the UK 'cus the beeb is a UK institution but there is some global stuff as well.

Once used in the article the link has will be struck through.

 * February 19, 1998 Thursday Transatlantic anti-war protests
 * May 18, 1999 Tuesday Europe Anti-war unrest reported in Serbia
 * June 1, 1999 Tuesday UK Eight arrested over anti-war protest
 * 30 September, 2001 Sunday US peace protests provoke fury
 * 9 October, 2001 Tuesday Demonstration over US air strikes
 * 3 November, 2001 Saturday Thousands join anti-war protest
 * 20 January 2002 Monday Bradford Thousands gather for peaceful protest
 * 30 March, 2002 Saturday Thousands demonstrate against Iraq war
 * 18 September, 2002 Wednesday Activists prepare anti-war campaign
 * 25 September, 2002 Wednesday 'Thousands to join anti-war rally'
 * 28 September, 2002 Saturday Protesters stage anti-war rally
 * 5 October, 2002 Saturday Italians march against Iraq war
 * 31 October, 2002 moved to Talk:Halloween 2002 anti-war protest
 * 1 November, 2002 Friday Protesters say 'don't attack Iraq'
 * 1 November, 2002 Friday Anti-war protesters block traffic
 * 28 November, 2002 Thursday Masks and banners ambush Blair
 * 30 November, 2002 Saturday Australians march against war in Iraq
 * 19 January, 2003 Sunday Police arrest anti-war protesters
 * 19 January, 2003 Sunday Peace protesters stage UK vigils
 * 19 January, 2003 Sunday Global protests against Iraq war
 * 20 January, 2003 Monday Global Arab press hails anti-war protests
 * 25 January, 2003 Saturday Southampton (uk) Anti-war campaigners in port protest
 * 7 February, 2003 Friday U.K War protesters occupy Labour HQ
 * 15 Febuary articles moved to Talk:February 15, 2003 global anti-war protest
 * 25 February 2003 Tuesday Tyneside (u.k.) Anti-war demo at Tyne tank factory
 * 28 February, 2003 Friday Blackburn (u.k.) Straw fails to face demonstrators
 * 1 March, 2003 Saturday Birmingham (u.k) Anti-war demo attracts thousands
 * 2 March, 2003 Sunday Brighton (u.k)Police criticise 'unacceptable' war march
 * 5 March, 2003 U.K. Wednesday Britain Pupils walk out over war
 * 5 March, 2003 Wednesday Newcastle (u.k) Truancy warning after anti-war demo
 * 7 March, 2003 Friday Leicester (u.k) Arrests at children's anti-war protest
 * 7 March, 2003 Friday Fairford (u.k) Students join RAF base demonstrations
 * 08 March 2003 Manchester (u.k) Manchester on the march for peace
 * 19 March, 2003 Wednesday West Yorkshire (u.k) Trouble mars anti-war protest
 * 19 March, 2003 Wednesday Birmingham (u.k) Pupil war demo forces school closure
 * 19 March, 2003 Wednesday Cornwall (u.k) Pupils suspended over anti-war protest
 * 19 March, 2003 Wednesday Bristol (u.k) Pupils walk out in anti-war protest
 * 20 March, 2003 links moved to Talk:March 20, 2003 anti-war protest
 * 21 March, 2003 Friday Bristol (u.k) Anti-war protests continue
 * 21 March, 2003 Friday Sanaa (Yemen) Two killed in anti-war protests
 * 21 March, 2003 Friday San Francisco (u.s) Mass arrests at US peace demo
 * 22 March, 2003 Saturday Manchester (u.k) Police plea for 'peaceful' protests
 * 22 March, 2003 Saturday Global Anti-war protests span the globe
 * 27 March, 2003 Thursday U.K. Protests continue after week of war
 * 28 March, 2003 Friday Iran Huge anti-war march in Iran
 * 29 March 2003 Oxford War protestors demonstrate in Oxford
 * 29 March, 2003 Saturday Edigbrugh Thousands join anti-war march
 * 30 March, 2003 Sunday Jakarta (Indonesian) Anti-war anger spreads worldwide
 * 26 October, 2003 Sunday U.S. Thousands join US anti-war march
 * 27 September, 2003 Saturday London Thousands stage Iraq demo
 * 2 June, 2004 Wednesday Italy Anti-war protest at Italy parade
 * 19 March, 2005 Saturday Glasgow Iraq rally hears troops out call
 * 11 June 2005 Sussex Anti-war protesters march on city

 * School student protests 'Stop the war protests' heads told
 * Brian Haw Campaigner to scale down protest

--JK the unwise 18:56, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Some other stuff To work in:
 * Notes on the Antiwar Movement, Barbara Epsteinm, Monthly Review
 * Egypt Struggles to Control Anti-War Protests, Paul Schemm, Middle east report

Reformatted article back into lots of headings
I just finished reformatting the article back to where there are lots of headings. However, the headings are smaller and there are now indentations in order to facilitate readability. I considered the bulleted version of the article to look like too monolithic of a block of text, and I personally was disinclined to either read it or edit it. Now that it's more visibly broken into smaller chunks, it makes it appear more prone to actually getting read.

Additionally, keeping it broken out like that makes editing easier. Rather than dealing with a large block of text, one can just edit the specific section that they wish and not have to deal with other areas.

I do like the way it's broken up now as far as time periods and such. I tweaked just slightly, though, to match it to periods in the war in Iraq.

Schuminweb 23:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Text from Popular opposition to the 2003 Iraq War, protests section.
The section on protests on the Popular opposition to the 2003 Iraq War lists this page as the main page for that subject and so should just be a summary of this page. For this reason the folowing text which was added to that page should be worked into this page.

In October 2005, hundreds of vigils and protests occurred in towns across the U.S., all calling for "Not One More Death. Not One More Dollar." The event is sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee, Gold Star Families for Peace, Iraq Veterans Against the War, and Military Families Speak Out.

One of the most popular chants used by protesters was "no blood for oil."

Nu metal band System of a Down made a protest song called "Boom!", and invited documentarist Michael Moore to direct the music video, consisting mostly of clips of the protests worldwide. --JK the unwise 16:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

name change
I changed the name from Protests against the invasion of Iraq to Protests against the Iraq war as this seems more accurate. Protests took place not only against the inicial invation but also against the continuining war.

A while back the page was called Global protests against war on Iraq and was changed to Global protests against invasion of Iraq by Ed Poor for the reason that 'Invation of Iraq' is more neutral then the POV 'war on Iraq'. I agree that 'war on Iraq' is problematic but I think the propper NPOV title is 'Iraq war'. This is a popular name for the conflict, and it is uncontrovercial since no one disagrees that there was a War and that it was in Iraq.--JK the unwise 11:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Further name change, I have further changed the name of this article to specify which Iraq war the protests were against.--JK the unwise 11:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Merge
Post-September 11 anti-war movement is writtern in a POV editorial orriginal reasearch fasion. I belive that this partly steams from the title which sets the article up to present an editorialised content.

To solve this problem I want to propose merging the content of the article into this page and the following pages Opposition to the 2001 Afghanistan War, Protests against the invasion of Afghanistan, Opposition to the 2003 Iraq War, Anti-war and The Left and war and then deleting Post-September 11 anti-war movement.--JK the unwise 13:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * As I mentioned elsewhere, I see most of the article as NPOV, and am not comfortable with breaking up the article, since itself tells a story of how the "modern" anti-war movement got going. SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Can that story not be told accross Opposition to the 2001 Afghanistan War and [[Opposition to the 2003 Iraq War?--JK the unwise 10:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Revision of 04:57, 11 December 2005
Hopefully this revision will streamline things a bit. What I did is I removed the year headings (i.e. ===2004=== ) and promoted all the date headings to level-three headings. I figure that since every single date entry lists the year, that a separate year heading is unnecessary. This also straightens out the table of contents, which, since the addition of major time points (prior to invasion, invasion to fall, post-fall), had been kind of strange, since different divisions were laid on top of each other. As I said, this straightens it out, with our getting rid of the year separations. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Christians VS Bush
Published on Sunday, October 20, 2002 by the Observer/UK Iraq War 'Unjustifiable', says Bush's Church Head by Ed Vulliamy in New York President George Bush's own Methodist church has launched a scathing attack on his preparations for war against Iraq, saying they are 'without any justification according to the teachings of Christ'.

Jim Winkler, head of social policy for United Methodists, added that all attempts at a 'dialogue' between the President and his own church over the war had fallen on deaf ears at the White House.

His remarks came as the US continued its efforts to achieve agreement on a UN resolution that would open the way for a tough program of weapons inspections in Iraq. France is believed to be concerned that the current draft resolution might still act as a trigger for military intervention without a full Security Council debate if Iraq fails to comply.

Winkler is general secretary of the Board of Church and Society for the United Methodist church, which counts the President and the Vice-President, Dick Cheney, among its members. The church represents eight to nine million regular churchgoers and is the third biggest in America.

The Methodist Church, he says, is not pacifist, but 'rejects war as a usual means of national policy'. Methodist scriptural doctrine, he added, specifies 'war as a last resort, primarily a defensive thing. And so far as I know, Saddam Hussein has not mobilized military forces along the borders of the United States, nor along his own border to invade a neighboring country, nor have any of these countries pleaded for our assistance, not does he have weapons of mass destruction targeted at the United States'.

Winkler said his church was 'keenly aware' that it counted the President and his deputy among its members, and that he was therefore 'frequently encouraged by others to be very careful about how I say things'. © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.241.41.44 (talk • contribs) 20 Jan 2006

6th grade student
in words of a sixth grade student i dont like wars they are a waste of time and it hurts many prople in different way such as if a family member dies fighting for their country also it kills many people and could also leave people in danger. i am a 6th grade student and i am against war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.66.19.210 (talk • contribs) 14 Feb 2006

So you don't think the United States ending World War II was a good idea? Or are you against only certain types of wars? Would you support a war to prevent someone from killing others? 72.45.14.84

"popular" opposition, 'anti-war' - false, misleading designations
Can the heavily endowed, 'astroturf' organizations which comprise the 'antiwar' movement be factually described as 'popular?' especially since the largest of these demonstrations were organized by members of Saddam Hussein's legal council?

also, few of these groups are against war, supporting 'anti-imperialist war' against the U.S.. Describing them or their initiatives as 'anti-war' is counter-factual and POV. I'll make the nessesary changes.

 * The largest of these demonstrations were organized by members of Saddam Hussein's legal council? What do you mean? Are you refering to those people in cammo suits and holding AK-47 who used to call themselves Iraki Army?

 * Being from Irak, you don't need to be a supporter of Saddam Hussein nor member of his legal council to be against the military invasion and bombing of the city where you and your family live. Anyway, there were millions outside Iraq who demonstrated against the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.42.9 (talk) 16:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Disputed
The material I am objecting to is in the second paragraph of the article and was added in this edit, which has stood unchallenged for over 5 days in this presumably much-watched article. Normally, seeing an edit like this by an anonymous contributor, I would simply revert it, but I assume that if it has sat here for 5 days, that is something of an implicit endorsement by several contributors, so instead I am raising this as a dispute.

 * "These demonstrations in support of 'anti-imperialist' war against the U.S." is an outright slander. While there may have been such demonstrations somewhere in the world, that is clearly a mischaracterization of at least most of the protests mentioned or alluded to in this article. Tens and hundreds of thousands of people were not out in the streets of Europe and the U.S. itself calling for "'anti-imperialist' war against the U.S.". Normally, I would presume simply to revert this, but it has sat as the start of the second paragraph of the article for over a week

 * "were mainly organised by anti-war groups" became "were mainly organised by radical 'Social Justice' groups": note that the link still goes the same place, List of anti-war organizations: what, if anything, is the basis for rewording?

 * "the largest of these were organized by the Stalinist group, International ANSWER, an initiative of Saddam Hussein's lawer, Ramsey Clark. Other groups acting in the U.S. were heavily subsidised by the Heinz Foundation, directed by the wife of President Bush's opponent in the 2004 U.S. Presidential election." There's so much wrong with this I hardly know where to begin:

 * While some (including me) consider the Workers World Party and later the Party for Socialism and Liberation to have taken an overly controlling role in ANSWER, it is problematic to call these groups Stalinist. WWP is almost unique among left parties in carrying the works of both Stalin and Trotsky in its bookstores and vaguely embracing both. Some (including me, again) would call this hypocritical and opportunistic, and suspect them of being Stalinists who won't quite own up to it, but that's a very small part of the way to callin ANSWER "Stalinist". I don't particularly like ANSWER, but to say that the group is Stalinist is quite a stretch. Certainly, most of its supporters are not, and the people who come to their demos even less so.
 * Ramsey Clark only recently joined Saddam Hussein's legal team. At the time he was involved in founding ANSWER, he had no relation to Saddam Hussein. This is, at best, anachronistic and tendentious (why not identify him as "former U.S. Attorney General, for example?), at worst an effort to set up a false inference that the anti-war movement had a link to Saddam Hussein during the time that Saddam was in power.
 * "Other groups acting in the U.S. were heavily subsidised by the Heinz Foundation": never heard this before, and given the rest of this person's edit, I am not willing to give it any benefit of the doubt. It is particularly hard to know what to make of it because there is no such organization as "the Heinz Foundation": The Heinz Foundations are The Teresa and H. John Heinz III Foundation, The H. John Heinz III Foundation, The H. John Heinz III Foundation, the Howard Heinz Endowment, and Vira I. Heinz Endowment. In any case, since Kerry was not opposed the war, it seems unlikely that his wife Teresa Heinz Kerry was heavily subsidizing protests against his own position. Given the other dubious assertions from this same source, I would be inclined to remove this pending citation.

I'll give at least 24 hours for response before I edit, although I certainly won't object if someone else reverts this material sooner. - Jmabel | Talk 20:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Just want to say I'm entirely with Jmabel here. Kalkin 21:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a note to clarify that the anonymous edits discussed above were only up for an hour or two before I reverted them—not 5 days. —GrantNeufeld 23:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My apologies! I was working through my watchlist, which I had run a few hours earlier and didn't notice that this article had been edited in between when I ran the watchlist and when I looked. So I presumed that since I was working 6 days back in my watchlist, that this material had been there for the intervening 6 days. I missed that this edit was not 5 minutes after the previous edit but 6 days plus 5 minutes after. Should have just reverted it, as was my first inclination. - Jmabel | Talk 04:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. I believe that 66.209.214.23 is mainly just stirring up trouble, as he similarly vandalized the January 20, 2005 counter-inaugural protest article.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * there is a problem if you're accusing me of vandalism. the article you maintain about the counter-innaugural demonstrations is not encyclopedic, but an advocacy piece. i corrected the pov within it.

 * "'These demonstrations in support of 'anti-imperialist' war against the U.S.' is an outright slander." it is not. it is a fact. both the wwp and the rcp are dedicated supporters of anti-imperialist war against the u.s., to say otherwise is a lie. to omit this from an encyclopedic article is to mislead and obfuscate. wwp = answer and rcp = nion, the largest organizing force within upj aside from medea benjemin's various front groups.

 * that the wwp is stalinist is mere historical fact, as the wwp defined itsself as a faction by remaining loyal to the soviet union in the wake of kruschev's revalations of stalin's brutality. the wwp's stalinism is not really questioned within the social justice movement; why throw up smokescreens here?

 * that the wwp is in fact answer is similarly a simple fact -- they hold the same dc office as their headquarters. if you call answer's phone, you've dialed the wwp's number. to deny this is similarly lying.

 * my citation of ramsey clark as saddam's lawer is not anachronistic as i never cited a chronology. regardless, ramsey clark is saddam's lawer and an initiator of answer and a featured speaker at answer's dc rallies. the fact that he lacked the opportunity to defend hussein prior to hussein's status as defendent is utterly meaningless. a reasonable person can come to the conclusion that it was clarkes intent to represent hussein in court if his efforts to prevent his removal from power via answer failed. via clark, the social justice movement undeniably has a direct and central linkage to saddam hussein. it may pain you to admit this, and you may be willing to do whatever you can to suppress this fact, but wikipedia is a community project and you have no sole authority to suppress this fact and corrupt a wikipedia article into an advocacy piece.

 * answer itsself is barely a "coalition" in any honest sence, since a signifigant number of its signatories (most since the split with upj) are merely the names of answer/wwp special interest groups.

 * that the crowds at answer rallies are filled out with dupes who believe they are at an "anti-war" event who may ort may not share the wwp's stalinism is another meaningless point; as meaningless as if one were to say that a rally against illegal immigration organized by the national socialist movement couldn't be described as "fascist" or "nazi" because much of the crowd was comprised of non-affiliated supporters of immigration reform. nor is guilt by association imputed to the the general anti-iraq-war movement; though its obvious that answer rallies are accurately described as "stalinist" and "in support of anti-imperialist war," and rcp organized efforts are porperly described as maoist and in support of anti-imperialist war, its not obvious that non-affiliated crowd members are the same.

 * i, for one, don't entirely blame these people for their ignorance, as they are largely victims of the deliberate, ideologically-driven and partisan obfuscation you are exersizing here.

 * Wow. Where to begin... you're getting almost all the details wrong as well as your larger points.

 * First the organizations. ANSWER is not the WWP.  The WWP doesn't even operate in ANSWER anymore, it split, and the PSL now is part of ANSWER instead.  The phone number of ANSWER was never the same as the WWP, you're confusing ANSWER with the IAC, which I'll agree was and is a WWP front group, but is only a small part of ANSWER.  NION is not the RCP and is anyway seperate from UFPJ.  The largest Marxist organization in UFPJ is the CP, which does not dominate it.  The participation of a Marxist organization in an anti-war coalition does not make that organization Marxist.  I have no idea what a "Medea Benjamin front group" is - does this mean a group Medea Benjamin helps lead, so the GOP would be a "Bush front group"?

 * Second the 'anti-imperialist war.' You say "wwp and the rcp are dedicated supporters of anti-imperialist war against the u.s." - this would need a citation, but it's not even relevant.  Cite ANSWER supporting anti-imperialist war.  Cite a single ANSWER protest that had that as one of its slogans or demands.  Note that the slogans of each protest are public. Then try UFPJ, which you'll find even harder - I don't believe a single one of its major members says it supports the Iraqi resistance, let alone the group itself.

 * Third 'Stalinism.' The WWP and now PSL are both closer to Maoism than Stalinism, although both are multi-tendency Marxist-Leninist.  Like many Maoists they believe that Kruschev betrayed socialism - it's one of the excuses Mao used for his break with the USSR.  The Stalinist party in the US was of course the CP.  It would be unfair to describe them as Stalinist today, but much fairer then describing any other US group as Stalinist.

 * Fourth Ramsey Clark. It's highly misleading to describe ANSWER as an initiative of "Saddam Hussein's lawyer."  This is a point made above which you seem not to understand, but its very simple.  At the time ANSWER was founded, thus at the time it could (possibly, misleadingly) be described as Clark's "initiative," he was not Saddam's lawyer.  Compare "the political blame for the Iran hostage crisis fell on Jimmy Carter, head of Habitat for Humanity."

 * Fifth your assumption of bad faith ("they are largely victims of the deliberate, ideologically-driven and partisan obfuscation you are exersizing here"). It's entirely unwarranted and insulting.  Just because you have paranoid neo-McCarthyite political views which are, as outlined above, founded on extreme confusion does not mean that anyone is justified in asserting that your edits on Wikipedia are made with the intention of obfuscation, and you owe the same courtesy of assuming honest intentions to those who disagree with you.

 * I'm reverting your edits to the article, given their factual problems and the consensus of commenters above.Kalkin 20:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

 * i'm sorry that you've resorted to truely anachronistic name-calling. your reaction to a person's attempt to add nessesary facts to the article by dusting off and swinging cold-war era brickbats like "mccarthyite" shows that i'm not "assuming" bad faith. i'm being presented with bad faith, and that's dismaying. i didn't come here for controversy. my intention is to make the article more truthfull.

 * we shouldn't honor recently thrown-together front-groups as seperate entities of their parents any more than an article should document every time its organizers change clothes. on what basis do we regard psl as non-wwp, organizationally? nion, similarly, was started by an rcp organizer, clark kissenger, and it's initial "our grief is not a cry for war" campaign was deployed through rcp chapters and the rcp membership. can nion honestly be separated organizationally from the rcp? clearly no. why can't these associations be spoken of plainly? why are we supposed to consider iac's proportion within answer to the exclusion of it's consequence in answer, particularly through brian becker? who is served by pretending to be ignorant of their anti-imperialism? here is a source in which answer defines the difference between them and upj: "[upj's briefly taken option to organize seperately of answer] had the effect of forcing people to choose between going to a demonstration organized by anti-imperialist forces, who defended the Palestinian and Arab cause, or going to one called by the more moderate anti-war forces."

 * i did not misspeak when i said that answer and wwp occupy the same office. in fact, answer, wwp and iac share the same dc offices. answer has the same office under the psl front as they did prior to its invention.

 * i think it would be absurd to draw service with habitat for humanity together with culpability for the hostage crisis. i think if someone is both a foreign dictator's lawer and a central figure in the putatively "popular" movement against the war fought to remove that dictator from power, it represents a clear conflict of interest that should be aired openly if one is aiming at an honest representation of things. it is misleading to omit this corruption.

 * regardless of particulars, what place do maoist or stalinist groups have in an "anti-war" movement? allarmingly, at its center and helm. whichever way its addressed, excluding this is misrepresentative and misleading. its not the object of an encyclopedia article to soften an organization's image.

 * i've reverted the changes. please do not abuse the wikipedia system.

 * I'm sorry I'm being presented with Cold-War style paranoia and anti-Communist witchhunting. However my political disagreements with you are not evidence of bad faith on my part, as above.  Please cease conflating the two.  If my tone has been hostile, it's because you began the discussion by asserting that my intention was "obfuscation."  I will try to moderate it.

 * "on what basis do we regard psl as non-wwp, organizationally" - because they split! The WWP and PSL are now hostile entities!  "nion, similarly, was started by an rcp organizer" - compare "the ACLU, similarly, was started by Communist Party organizer, Roger Baldwin, and initially supported by CP cadre."  True - does that mean the ACLU is the CP?  Can you tell the difference between groups being related, and groups being identical?  And yes, ANSWER calls itself anti-imperialist.  That doesn't mean it supports anti-imperialist war.  (I can be anti-Communist in 1980 without calling for war with the Soviet Union, can't I?)

 * "answer, wwp and iac share the same dc offices" is just false. ANSWER and IAC are now rivals, IAC is no longer in ANSWER - the PSL is involved in ANSWER, and the WWP controls the IAC.  My recollection is that the "same phone number" thing was IAC and WWP, but I could be wrong.  It's certainly not presently IAC and ANSWER.  You need to provide citations for your charges, regardless.

 * "if someone is both a foreign dictator's lawer and a central figure in the putatively "popular" movement against the war" - exactly, this is a description that was never true of Ramsey Clark, because he didn't become Saddam's lawyer till the war had already deposed him, thus there can't be a conflict of interest, whatever it says about his politics.

 * Anyone who is opposed to a war has a place in the anti-war movement. Purges are not healthy.  Note that anti-war does not mean opposed to all war, by the way, only opposed to a particular war.  There's a discussion about this on the anti-war talk page.

 * "please do not abuse the wikipedia system" - that's pretty rich, coming from an anon user who is engaging in a revert war in order to insert demonstrably false information into an article against the consensus of all other posters on its talk page. Please think about what you're doing.  I will continue to revert the article to the consensus version. Kalkin 00:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * "...Cold-War style paranoia and anti-Communist witchhunting..." it's too bad that you've taken this down to the level of shrill ad hominem. i'll confess that if your beratements represent the concensus attitude here, you may be rid of me shortly and the article will remain as whitewashed appologia. its ugly the way truth is being sacrificed on the altar of "social justice" here, but it wouldn't be the first corpse lying there by a long shot.

 * i'm having trouble understanding your argument about ramsey clark, unless your argument is that hussein suddenly and technically became something other than what he is once deposed. if that's the case, your argument just lacks merit. on september 24th,2005, clarke was simultaneously 1) the founder of iac and founding signatory of answer, 2) a featured speaker at the answer rally, and 3) saddam's attorney. if my reputation and integrety were tied to that event, i'd flee from those facts as well.

 * i think you should consider the possibility that you are too close to the issue to report objectively on it.

 * are purges unhealthy? sometimes yes, sometimes no. sometimes dissasociating onesself from a powerfull but corrupt ally can be painfull, but ultimately healthy. in such a case, hypocricy and dishonesty are the greater threats to one's health. the question is irrelivant to this discussion, however, since its probably not possible to "purge" the integral organizing pillar of a group from itsself. it's possible to break away from it, but this admittedly takes bravery that many do not possess.

 * I notice you're now only defending your Ramsey Clark claim, but you've nevertheless restored all your edits. What's up with that?

 * On that issue. At the time Clark founded IAC, and at the time IAC helped found ANSWER, Clark had no relation to Saddam Hussein.  Thus it is misleading to say that protests in 2003 were lead by "Saddam Hussein's lawyer, Ramsey Clark."  Why does this matter?  Because it suggests that ANSWER's, IAC's, and Clark's motive for opposing the Iraq War was support for Saddam.  However, given the actual chronology, which is that Clark didn't assist Saddam in any way until he was no longer the opponent in the Iraq War, there is no evidence for support of Saddam as a motive for opposition to the war.

 * Unfortunately we don't have to address the results of purging Communists and their sympathizers from movements in the abstract. It happened in the 1950s in the U.S., and the results continue to haunt the labor movement to this day.  I understand that, as a vehement opponent of the anti-war movement, you would like it to lose all sense of proportion with regard to threats and begin tearing itself apart.  Don't expect us to fall for that, however.

 * Oh, and I have not taken this to the level of ad hominem. For one thing, I've attacked your politics, not your integrity, while you have attacked my motives repeatedly.  For another, I've done so explicitly to note that politics should be kept seperate from both Wikipedia articles and personal honesty.  Ad hominem is the logical fallacy of using attacks on a person to argue against their position.  It is not a synonym for insult. Kalkin 04:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * you haven't refuted my other claims. your response to the fact that answer is a child of the workers' world party is to triumphantly state that they just recently created a new front-group to run the opperation. your response to the fact that nion is an rcp venture is to make an inapt analogy to the aclu. to my knowlege, nion has never dissasociated itsself from its rcp founder, facilities and agents. refreshingly, the authors of the aclu wiki article refrained from deliberately ommitting the aclu's communist roots. when i spoke of nion as being an undersigner of upj, its because when upj had its extremely short-lived "split" with answer for the purposes of organizing the september 24th event, nion signed up under upj. in other words, these claims which you initially derided as slander have been proved true; your objection is that they should be softened or ommitted.

 * iac dc address
 * http://www.iacenter.org/iraqchallenge/orgcen.htm

 * answer dc address (since the "split" between wwp and its front-group, psl)
 * http://answer.pephost.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr008=7ytawhuyl3.app13b&abbr=ANS_&page=NewsArticle&id=6947&news_iv_ctrl=2323

 * these are facts and it doesn't matter if i or someone else "defends" them. what you are defending is an encyclopedia article which omits nessesary and availible facts.

 * if you read back, you'll find that i never said that clark or answer opposed the iraq war because clark is saddam's attorney. you're debating a strawman and defending a meaningless and conviluted distinction. of course we know that answer was created to oppose any u.s. military response to attacks on its soil; i left language to that effect from the original article in because its a fact.

 * "mccarthyite" isn't a party, policy or theory. its an insult. i haven't called you names. i don't see what i've said that would provoke name-calling, and yet i'm subjected to it.

 * finally, your weird tangent accusing me of exersizing some power to get inside your head(s?) to implant bad, divisive thoughts is, well, weird. i'm a little freaked out by it. i now regret leaving my ip exposed like this.

 * I believe what I've already written speaks for itself as per whether I've refuted your other claims. Only two things I want to add.  First, I agree that it's perfectly appropriate to bring up RCP influence in NION in the NION article.  It's inappropriate to describe anti-war protests organized by UFPJ, which includes NION as a minor participant, as advocating anti-imperialist war because the RCP may (I have no idea whether it does, actually - you still haven't provided a source).  Thus the ACLU article mentions its Communist roots, but the article on Abu Ghraib does not.  Second, you display your confusion again when talking about UFPJ's "short-lived split" with ANSWER for 9/24/05.  Rather they came together briefly for that protest, and were split before and after - up until a month beforehand it still appeared that there were going to be two separate marches, and immediately afterwards UFPJ announced its decision not to work with ANSWER again.

 * The IAC link you give is from when they organized opposition to the sanctions on Saddam. The last update to the site seems to have been in January of 2001 - there's no 'last updated' I could find even in the page source, but the top-of-the-page press release is for a January demonstration.  January 2001 is of course before the founding of ANSWER.  So what you've demonstrated is that ANSWER now uses a building that the IAC once used.  Congratulations.  I've already acknowledged that IAC helped found ANSWER - but this does not prove that they are identical, and whatever their former relationship, they've now split, as is documented in the Wikipedia articles I've linked above.  This fact may be worth noting in the ANSWER section on allegations that it was founded as a front group; it is not relevant here.

 * If you don't think Clark's being Saddam's attorney explains his defense of Saddam, why is it a fact that should be included in this article? Especially in the introduction, and especially in a way that implies it does explain his defense, by making it sound as if he was Saddam's attorney at the time of the invasion?

 * McCarthyism is a political position. It has defenders - Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, and Daniel Pipes have all written in defense of McCarthy, I believe.  My 'tangent' was in response to your demand that the anti-war movement disassociate itself from radical 'social justice' groups. Kalkin 17:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * please, kalkin. i understand you don't like being challenged, but don't freak out on me. unfortunately i feel like i may be a target of progressive hate because of the hostility shown me in this talk page. now you have my ip. fine. please don't use my ip in a retributionary fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.209.214.23 (talk • contribs)

 * Calm the fuck down. I haven't come anywhere close to threatening you.  And you could probably beat me up anyway, I'm not very physically intimidating.  And this argument is two months old anyway!  What's with this?
 * I don't mind being challenged... in fact, I enjoy debate, that's why I'm aggressive about it. Please don't take that the wrong way.  I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I'm angry at you personally - it's hard to communicate tone via text alone.  But also please don't play some kind of victim here.  The internets is very rarely serious business. Kalkin 14:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Rename article to Protests against the Iraq War
Iraq War is capitalized, as all named wars. --nirvana2013 13:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC) I suppose it should be. Septentrionalis 04:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If we're to do that, we'll need to get an admin to remove that redirect in order to clear the way for the move. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. — Nightst a  llion  (?) 12:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Disambig'
Morton devonshire removed the template and the disambiguation comment at the top of this article. On my talk page he explained that he had not meant to remove the anti-war topics template only the disambig' sentence because "The disambig isn't necessary, and in other similar articles this kind of information is placed under a 'See Also' header. From the WP style sheets I've seen, articles are supposed to start with a simple [subject] is . . . format"

I think that this disambig' comment was orrginally added by an annon user who did not provide an edit comment. (see ). Other wikipedia articles do contain this kind of thing but usally only if the article subject is very similar to (or likely to be confused with) other articles. Neither of these things seem to be the case with this article so I agree with Morton that we should move the links into the see also section.--JK the unwise 13:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

April 29, 2006
The bit about the A29 protest needs to be updated. It currently speaks like it was written before the event happened (which is the case). We need to rewrite it to tell what actually happened, vs. what will happen. SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Cutting back the external links
Before this becomes a List of anti-war organizations in the external links section, would anyone be averse to cutting this WAY back, particularly regarding those links that already have articles? SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. Media - Chomsky
The January 27, 2007 protest was downplayed by the media, due to the attack of the media by various socialist groups, anarchists, etc. As a firsthand man of experience, there was well over a 100,000 people at this protest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.125.201.197 (talk) 03:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Split article?
This article is getting kind of looooooooong... any thoughts about how we might want to split it up? SchuminWeb (Talk) 07:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * How about Postests Prior to the invasion of Iraq, Protests during the Invasion to the fall of Baghdad and Protests After the fall of Baghdad? How would exactly would we put on this page, a simple dismbig' or a short sinop' of the protests then links to differnt periods? Or Shot sections on each period?--JK the unwise 17:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * This could work. Also nice would be Timeline of protests against the Iraq War which could take on much of the material here, while encouraging editors to write in some thematic material: for example, how did protest relate to the withdrawal of Spanish and Italian armed forces? a collation of material on anti-war protests against a visiting George W. Bush. Campaigns of anti-war activists. etc.--Carwil 22:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The article was split up, merged, and renamed several times. This breaks the history of articles, and the GFDL or usability of the diffs. There's nothing wrong with long articles. Please don't split split or rename it again  without massive support. -- Jeandré, 2007-02-02t21:53z

Add "Civil war" heading?
In order to prevent the "After the fall of Baghdad" section from becoming too long - basically in order to provide another time point break - has anyone given any thought to adding an additional heading regarding the Iraqi civil war? Basically, this would entail changing "After the fall of Baghdad" to "Fall of Baghdad to civil war" and then add "After the beginning of civil war". I've not done it at this point because (A) it's a bit controversial about whether it's even a civil war going on over there, and (B) the Civil war in Iraq article does not give a good date in order to place such a break.

Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Could we think of a term that is neutral, civil war is probably accurate but is disputed.--JK the unwise 18:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

 * That is the crux of the problem. "Civil war" is quite controversial, so if we're to add another break (which is probably a good idea), we need to pin down where to break it, and what to call it.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Why? People who can't handle large pages are unliky to edit the "After the fall of Baghdad" section. Is it that the contents' too long? We could create a custom compactTOC with links to the big protests and the years instead. -- Jeandré, 2007-03-22t11:56z

Bias
Riddled with bias, I'm not saying its wrong, it's just not encyclopedic. Billcarr178 (talk) 06:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Extrapolate? SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Article probably would be better served as a sectioned list
I think this article is an interesting colleciton of info, but I dunno if having a section for each month (or in some cases each day) is the right approach. Perhaps keeping the timeframes as the main sections, and then using bullets and lists to itemize the protests under that...perhaps giving a full section to more significant protests (such as the one listed as the record for largets protest). -- TRTX T / C 18:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm kind of on the fence about it, personally. Could you reformat it the way you're thinking in a "sandbox" in your userspace so we can see your idea in assembled form?  SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I can give it a shot. It may take a bit to work out kinks though. -- TRTX T / C 15:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Great. Don't worry too much about de-kinking, though, at this point.  I just want an idea about what you're proposing.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

In baghdad
I read a book a while back by a US Marine, it may have been Shooter by Jack Coughlin, but the author said he was approached by western anti war protesters in Baghdad, and several Iraqi men came over and wanted to beat them up because they were glad Saddam was gone, the same people they were there to protest against, were the ones that had to defuse the situation and save them lol. --Conor Fallon (talk) 02:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

2002-2011 Protests against the Iraq War
adding timeline infront of the title. Carachi (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

 * You do not have consensus for this move. SchuminWeb (Talk) 08:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Requesting that another editor please move this article back to the original title of Protests against the Iraq War pending further discussion (I am at my limit per 3RR). SchuminWeb (Talk) 08:21, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

april 29, 2006
the link to the protest mentioned on april 29th, 2006, is broken and i would like to suggest using this here instead: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042900497.html in addition, it would be nice to mention the celebrities as well as the (underestimated) number of people attending. --96.63.2.100 (talk) 13:56, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

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A million billion?
I am pretty sure a million billion people is a bit much, considering the total world population does not even remotely approach even a thousand billion, a hundred billion, much less a whole million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.16.228.206 (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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The criticism section is pathetic
People, including journalists, were fired for opposing the Iraq War, and the only thing on this page is a criticism of ineffective the antiwar movement is?

The source I included is pathetic. A fringe far-right newspaper. These accusations were commonplace. Being antiwar in the United States was dangerous. Frank Gaffney wrote in a column in the Washington Times that criticizing the Iraq War in the Congress constitutes treason and that it "really should be a hanging offense." That concerns US Congressmen, but everybody who dared to criticize the war in the US faced the same attacks. The attempts to silence dissent was so commonplace it defines the Iraq War as much as the Holocaust defines the Third Reich.

Bias: No pro-Iraq war article
In a counterpoint to anti-war demonstrations, supporters of war in Iraq have descended on cities from Fort Wayne to Cleveland, and Atlanta to Philadelphia. They wave flags, messages of support for the troops - and also banners attacking liberals, excoriating the UN, and in one case, advising: "Bomb France Now." -- https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/26/usa.iraq

You had the likes of Students for War.

Why give the antiwar movement so much space and the much larger and powerful prowar movement isn't even mentioned? Not a word about the prowar demonstrations, which much more than the antiwar demonstrations define the Iraq War and the era. Antiwar demonstrations are the norm, because people tend to prefer peace to war. Prowar manifestations are far out there. I don't think you ever see it outside of authoritarian societies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 16:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Protests against the Iraq War


text:
FIS Alpine Ski World Cup

The FIS Alpine Ski World Cup is the top international circuit of alpine skiing competitions, launched in 1966 by a group of ski racing friends and experts which included French journalist Serge Lang and the alpine ski team directors from France (Honore Bonnet) and the USA (Bob Beattie). It was soon backed by International Ski Federation president Marc Hodler during the FIS Alpine World Ski Championships 1966 at Portillo, Chile, and became an official FIS event in the spring of 1967 after the FIS Congress at Beirut, Lebanon.

The inaugural World Cup race was held on 5 January 1967 in Berchtesgaden, West Germany, a slalom won by Heinrich Messner of Austria. Jean-Claude Killy of France and Nancy Greene of Canada were the overall winners for the first two seasons.

Rules
Competitors attempt to achieve the best time in four disciplines: slalom, giant slalom, super G, and downhill. The fifth event, the combined, employs the downhill and slalom. The World Cup originally included only slalom, giant slalom, and downhill races. Combined events (calculated using results from selected downhill and slalom races) were included starting with the 1974–75 season, while the Super G was added for the 1982–83 season.

The current scoring system was implemented in the 1991–92 season. For every race points are awarded to the top 30 finishers: 100 points to the winner, 80 for second, 60 for third, winding down to 1 point for 30th place. The racer with the most points at the end of the season in mid-March wins the cup, represented by a 9 kilogram crystal globe. Sub-prizes are also awarded in each individual race discipline, with a smaller 3.5 kg crystal globe.

Since 1967, the big crystal globe has been awarded for the overall title. From the beginning to 1971–72, discipline titles were awarded with medals. Statistically, those titles have the same value as the small crystal globes, which first appeared for discipline titles in slalom, giant slalom and downhill in the 1977–78. In super-G, the small globe has been awarded since 1985–86. For super-g races in the three seasons previous, points were added and calculated in the giant slalom ranking.

The World Cup is held annually, and is considered the premier competition for alpine ski racing after the quadrennial Winter Olympics. Many consider the World Cup to be a more valuable title than the Olympics or the biennial World Championships, since it requires a competitor to ski at an extremely high level in several disciplines throughout the season, and not just in one race.

Races are hosted primarily at ski resorts in the Alps in Europe, with regular stops in Scandinavia, North America, and east Asia, but a few races have also been held in the Southern Hemisphere. World Cup competitions have been hosted in 25 countries around the world: Andorra, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States.

Lower competitive circuits include the NorAm Cup in North America and the Europa Cup in Europe.

Overall winners
Multiple individual overall World Cup winners are marked with (#).

Men overall titles
The following skiers have at least three overall alpine World Cup titles.

Women overall titles
The following skiers have at least three overall alpine World Cup titles.

Top ten small crystal globe podiums
{{legend|lightblue|Still active}}

Most small globes per discipline
Combined crystal globes were officially awarded from 2007 to 2012. Here are counted all season titles, official and unofficial. The records for most World Cup titles in each discipline are as follows:

Multiple disciplines small crystal globe winners
Only four men's racers have ever managed to win small crystal globe in four or more different alpine skiing disciplines during their career, as listed in the table below.

Most race wins in each discipline
As of 2 March 2024

Most races won
A common measurement of how good individual skiers are is the total number of World Cup races won during their skiing career. The following skiers have won at least 20 World Cup races:

Men
update: 17 March 2024

Speed events
As of 2 March 2024

 * NOTE: Super G not contested at that time.
 * NOTE: Parallel events are not included in the list as slalom wins.

Technical events
As of 10 March 2024

All-event winners
Only a few racers have ever managed to win races in all five classic World Cup alpine skiing disciplines during their career, as listed in the table below. Marc Girardelli (1988–89), Petra Kronberger (1990–91), Janica Kostelić (2005–06) and Tina Maze (2012–13) are the only skiers to have won all five events in a single season. Bode Miller is the only skier with at least five World Cup victories in all five disciplines.

Women

 * Mikaela Shiffrin is the only skier in history who has won in six different disciplines—i.e., aside from the classic five disciplines, she has also won in parallel slalom.

Most race wins in a single season
The following skiers have won at least ten World Cup races in a single season (events not available in a given season are marked "NA"):

Slalom
Updated: 10 March 2024

Most podiums and top ten results
As of 3 March 2024. {{legend|#CFECEC|Still active}}

Career top ten results

 * Note: Only parallel events from (1975, 1997, 2011–2013, 2016) which count for overall ranking, included on this list, are considered as official individual World Cup victories.

Greatest alpine skiers of all time
Based on ski-database super ranking system (since 1966), this scoring system is calculated using points from three categories: Olympic Games, World Championships, and World Cup (overall titles, discipline titles and individual top ten results).

Parallel slalom
Parallel slaloms from 1976 to 1991 counted for Nations Cup. There were no limitations regarding the number of athletes who could enter the competition, but each main event was limited to 32 competitors.

Women
{{legend|#f4e0d7|not counted as an official World cup win}}

City event
Parallel city event is a version of parallel slalom where only Top16 ranked are allowed to compete. Length of the track and course/gates setting are also different from classic parallel slalom, and as of 2019/20 season, they are completely replaced with normal parallel races with qualification run.

Knockout slalom
There were a total of two races (one in the men's category and one in the women's category) and it was in 2002/03 season. The points were added together with slalom races.

Parallel giant slalom
Introduced by the International Ski Federation to the World Cup as a spectator-friendly event in late 2015, the parallel giant slalom competition, or shortened parallel-G, joining the parallel slalom, is intended to lure more speed specialists into the faster of the two technical disciplines, along with attracting their fans to watch the races at the venue, on-line, and on television. Few venues offer the slope and conditions required to host an extremely short Giant slalom course that can be readily viewed in its entirety by a compact gallery of fans. Modified or not, the Federation has not suggested that they will push the format to lower-level tours like the NorAm and Europa Cup.

Format
The Chief Race Director of the inaugural event at Alta Badia, Markus Waldner, on 20 December 2015 stated that "great performances" and "head-to-head fights" between the best giant slalom racers is the goal of the competition. The course for the first race was very compact at about 20–22 seconds duration, or about one-third of a normal GS run. The pace and cadence was the same as Giant slalom, not standard Slalom. Gates were set at roughly the same distances as GS and on a slope of about the same pitch. The field of thirty-two were drawn following an invitational format. The top four men in the overall World Cup rankings were automatic invitees, if they chose to compete. Another 16 racers were selected from the top of the current GS start list rankings, and the final twelve competitors were selected from the 1st run efforts at the standard GS event the day prior at the same venue. Overlapping qualifications allowed the sponsors to invite lower ranked participants to fill in gaps, as needed, and to replace individuals who declined to participate. Points were awarded and accumulated according to current standards for the race season in all relevant categories: the GS discipline, Overall and Nations Cup. The field was filled with thirty-two first round participants, each getting a run on either course. The best combined times moved the fastest racer to the second round through bracket preference protocols. From the second round, skiers the head-to-head competitions were held over one run only, with the faster skier from the previous round granted course selection between the 'red-right' or 'blue-left' course. At about one-third the time of a standard GS event, top performers/finalists were able to make multiple runs without the fatigue of a longer event. The course was methodically set with lasers, and a GPS-equipped Snowcat, to guarantee that both courses on the hill were as identical as possible to ensure equity and a fair competition. The Race Director suggested the difference between the two lanes were within "1–to–2 centimeters" tolerance of one another.

Scoring system
The World Cup scoring system is based on awarding a number of points for each place in a race, but the procedure for doing so and the often-arcane method used to calculate the annual champions has varied greatly over the years. Originally, points were awarded only to the top ten finishers in each race, with 25 points for the winner, 20 for second, 15 for third, 11 for fourth, 8 for fifth, 6 for sixth, 4 for seventh, then decreasing by one point for each lower place. To determine the winner for each discipline World Cup, only a racer's best three results counted, from a typical six to eight races in each discipline (consistent with the then-current classification of skiers as amateurs, who couldn't be expected compete all the time). For the overall Cup, only these best three results in each discipline were included. Until 1970, the results of Winter Olympic Games races and Alpine World Ski Championship races were also included in the World Cup points valuation (i.e., Grenoble 1968 and Val Gardena 1970); this was abandoned after 1970, mainly due to the limited number of racers per nation who are permitted to take part in these events. Beginning with the 1971–72 season (the sixth season), the number of results counted was increased to five in each discipline. The formula used to determine the overall winner varied almost every year over the next decade, with some seasons divided into two portions with a fixed number of results in each period counting toward the overall, while in other seasons the best three or four results in each discipline would count.

Starting with the 1979–80 season (the 14th season), points were awarded to the top 15 finishers in each race. After 1980–81, the formula for the overall title stabilized for several years, counting the best 5 results in the original disciplines (slalom, giant slalom, and downhill) plus the best three results in combined. When Super G events were introduced for the 1982–83 season, the results were included with giant slalom for the first three seasons, before a separate Cup for the discipline was awarded starting in 1985–86 and the top 3 Super G results were counted toward the overall. The formula for the overall was changed yet again the following season, with the top four results in each discipline counting, along with all combined results (although the combined was nearly eliminated from the schedule, reduced to one or two events per season).

This perennial tweaking of the scoring formula was a source of ongoing uncertainty to the World Cup racers and to fans. The need for a complete overhaul of the scoring system had grown increasingly urgent with each successive year, especially once the FIS and the International Olympic Committee accepted after 1984 that the skiers were fully professional and not amateurs, so they no longer needed an artificial limitation on their number of events.

In 1987–88 (the 22nd season), the FIS decided to simplify the system: all results would now count in each discipline and in the overall. This new system was an immediate success, and the practice of counting all results has been maintained in every subsequent season.

With the ongoing expansion of the number and quality of competitors in World Cup races over the years, another major change to the scoring system was implemented in the 1991–92 season (the 26th season). Instead of only the top 15 skiers scoring points, with 25 points awarded for winning, 20 for second, and 15 for third (as had been done every season after the end of 1978-79), the top 30 finishers in each race would now earn points, with 100 for the winner, 80 for second, 60 for third, and then decreasing by smaller increments for each lower place. The point values were adjusted slightly the following season (to adjust and reduce the points for places 4th through 20th), and the scoring system has not been changed again since that year.

The table below compares the point values under all five scoring systems which have been in use:

† The scoring system changed during the 1978–79 season; this special system was used for the last two men's downhills and the last three races in every other discipline except combined.

Statistical analysis
Since the Top 30 scoring system was implemented in 1991–92., the number of completed men's or women's World Cup races each year has ranged from 30 to 44, so the maximum possible point total for an individual racer is about 3000–4400 under the current scoring system. Very few racers actually ski in all events. Bode Miller is the only skier who competed in every World Cup race during the three seasons from 2003 to 2005. The current record for total World Cup points in a season is Tina Maze's 2414 points in 2012–13, with the men's record of 2042 points set by Marco Odermatt in 2022–2023. The fewest points for an overall champion under the current system thus far have been 1009 for men by Aksel Lund Svindal in 2008–09 and 1248 for women by Vreni Schneider in 1994–95. The largest margin of victory in the overall has been Maze's 1313 points in 2012–13, more than doubling second-place finisher Maria Höfl-Riesch's total, while the largest men's margin was 743 points by Hermann Maier in 2000–01. Note that in the early days of World Cup (when the first place was awarded only 25 points), even larger relative margins of victory were recorded in 1967 by Jean-Claude Killy with 225 points over Heinrich Messner with 114 points and in 1973–74 by Annemarie Moser-Pröll with 268 points over Monika Kaserer with 153 points. The closest finishes since 1992 have been minuscule margins of 6 points in 1994–95 (Vreni Schneider over Katja Seizinger), 3 points in 2004–05 (Anja Pärson over Janica Kostelić) and in 2010–11 (Maria Riesch over Lindsey Vonn), and only 2 points in 2008–09 (Aksel Lund Svindal over Benjamin Raich). The current men's record for total World Cup points in one month of the season is Ivica Kostelić's 999 points from January 2011.

The tables below contain a brief statistical analysis of the overall World Cup standings during the 21 seasons since the Top 30 scoring system was implemented in 1991–92. In general, over 1000 points are needed to contend for the overall title. At least 1 man and 1 woman has scored 1000 points in each of these seasons, but no more than 5 men's or women's racers have crossed that threshold in any single season. Of the 42 men's and women's overall champions in these years, 38 scored over 1200 points, 30 had over 1300 points, 19 reached 1500 points, and only 7 amassed more than 1700 points during their winning seasons. As for the runners-up, 37 of the 42 second-place finishers scored over 1000 points, 18 had over 1300 points, and only 4 reached 1500 points yet failed to win. Most overall titles have been won quite convincingly, by more than 200 points in 23 of 42 cases, while only 11 margins of victory have been tighter than 50 points.

Finals
Since 1993 the International Ski Federation (FIS) has hosted a World Cup Final at the end of each season in March. During five days, men's and women's races are held in four disciplines: slalom, giant slalom, Super G, and downhill, as well as a team event. Only a limited number of racers are invited to ski at the Finals, including the top 25 in the World Cup standings in each discipline, the current junior World Champions in each discipline, and any skiers with at least 500 points in the general classification. Because of the smaller field, World Cup points are only awarded to the top 15 finishers in each race.

From inception, the finals took place during one week, with the speed events held during the week and the technical events during the weekend. However, beginning in 2024, the schedule was changed so that the finals took up two weekends, with the technical events during the first weekend and the speed events during the second.

Winners by country
The table below lists those nations which have won at least one World Cup race (current as of 23 March 2024).

Alpine team event
''Individual race wins are counted in this table, along with the nations team events held at World Cup Finals since 2006 (counts double as men and women in mixed competition contribute to a win). The "parallel race" is a head-to-head slalom race format used occasionally from the 1970s through 1990s, and again in 2011. Team event wins are doubled (because on one team event race competed both women and men; so it's counted separately each for women and men). Results for West Germany and Germany are counted together in this table. All of Yugoslavia's wins are currently lumped in with Slovenia, since the skiers who won races for former Yugoslavia were all Slovenes from Slovenia (one of six Yugoslav Republics), and thus are listed under Slovenia in online databases. The Soviet Union and Russia are counted separately, as are Czechoslovakia and the Czech Republic.''

A total of 24 countries have won World Cup races, with 19 countries winning men's races and 20 winning women's races. As expected, the top ten nations in this list are the ten nations listed in the Nations Cup summary table (with slight changes in order).

Marc Girardelli accounted for all of Luxembourg's 46 wins, while Janica Kostelić has 30 of Croatia's 56 and her brother Ivica has the rest. Ingemar Stenmark still has nearly one-half of Sweden's 192 wins more than two decades after his retirement. Some nations specialize in either speed (downhill and Super G) or technical (slalom and GS) disciplines, while others are strong across the board. Among nations with 30+ wins, the Canadian team has won 73% of its races in speed events, while Yugoslavia/Slovenia has won 84% and Sweden 86% of their races in technical events, especially notable in Sweden's case given its large number of wins. Several nations with under 30 wins have 100% of them in technical events, led by Finland and Spain. In contrast Germany and Norway have the most even distribution without disproportionate strength or weakness in any one discipline. Some nations have strong teams in only one gender, as 92% of Norway's wins have come from their men and 83% of Germany's from their women, while the Swiss, French and Canadian totals are split almost equally.

Nations Cup
The Nations Cup standings are calculated by adding up all points each season for all racers from a given nation.

The total number of top-three placings for each nation in the Nations Cup (through the 2022–23 season) are summarized below: Note: Results for West Germany and Germany are counted together in this table.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: FIS Alpine Ski World Cup


text:
Nyssa sylvatica

Nyssa sylvatica, commonly known as tupelo, black tupelo, blackgum or sour gum, is a medium-sized deciduous tree native to eastern North America from the coastal Northeastern United States and southern Ontario south to central Florida and eastern Texas, as well as Mexico.

Names
Nyssa sylvatica genus name, Nyssa, refers to a Greek water nymph; the species epithet sylvatica refers to its woodland habitat.

The species' common name, tupelo, is of Native American origin, coming from the Creek words ito "tree" and opilwa "swamp"; it was in use by the mid-18th century.

While these trees are often known as simply "tupelo", the fuller name, black tupelo, helps distinguish it from the other species of the tupelo genus Nyssa, some of which have overlapping ranges, such as water tupelo (N. aquatica) and swamp tupelo (N. biflora). The name "tupelo" is used primarily in the American South; northward and in Appalachia, the tree is more commonly called the black gum or the sour gum, although no part of the plant is particularly gummy. Both of these names contrast it with a different tree species with a broadly overlapping range, the sweet gum (Liquidambar styraciflua), which does produce an aromatic resin. Another common name used occasionally in the Northeast is pepperidge.

In Appalachia, the frequent variant is Nyssa sylvatica var. caroliniana, which is sometimes called the Yellow Gum. Its leaflets are thinner and less glossy, "with rather long tips, the under surface persistently somewhat downy and covered with minute warty excrescences easily seen under an ordinary hand lens" "Yellow Gum is not a swamp tree, like Black Gum, but an inhabitant of dry land, hills, and the coves of the southern Appalachians which it ascends to 3500 feet.

On Martha's Vineyard, in Massachusetts, this species is called "beetlebung", perhaps for its use in making the mallet known as a beetle, used for hammering bungs (stoppers) into barrels.

Description
Nyssa sylvatica grows to 20 - 25 m tall, rarely to 35 m, with a trunk diameter of 50 - 100 cm, rarely up to 170 cm. These trees typically have a straight trunk with the branches extending outward at right angles. The bark is dark gray and flaky when young, but it becomes furrowed with age, resembling alligator hide on very old stems. The twigs of this tree are reddish-brown, usually hidden by a greyish skin. The pith is chambered with greenish partitions.

The leaves of this species are variable in size and shape. They can be oval, elliptical, or obovate, and 5 – long. They have lustrous upper surfaces, with entire, often wavy margins. The foliage turns purple in autumn, eventually becoming an intense bright scarlet. Deer are extremely fond of the leaves on seedlings and saplings, to the point where large populations of them can make establishment of the tree almost impossible. For comparison, mature trees are largely left alone.

The flowers are very small, in greenish-white in clusters at the top of a long stalk and a rich source of nectar for bees. They are often dioecious so a male and female tree in proximity is required to set seed, however, many trees are also polygamo-dioecious, which means they have both male and female flowers on the same tree. The fruit is a black-blue, ovoid stone fruit, about 10 mm long with a thin, oily, bitter-to-sour tasting flesh and very popular with small bird species. There are from one to three fruits together on a long slender stalk. They are a valuable energy food for birds, especially the American robin.

Nyssa sylvatica forms a large deep taproot when young that makes transplanting difficult. Because of this, it is fairly uncommon in cultivation and the nursery trade.

Additional characteristics include:
 * Bark: Light reddish brown, deeply furrowed and scaly. Branchlets at first pale green to orange, sometimes smooth, often downy, later dark brown.
 * Wood: Pale yellow, sapwood white; heavy, strong, very tough, hard to split, not durable in contact with the soil. Used for turnery. Sp. gr., 0.6353; weight of cu. ft., 39.59.
 * Winter buds: Dark red, obtuse, one-fourth of an inch long. Inner scales enlarge with the growing shoot, becoming red before they fall.
 * Leaves: Alternate, often crowded at the end of the lateral branches, simple, linear, oblong to oval, two to five inches (127 mm) long, one-half to three inches (76 mm) broad, wedge-shaped or rounded at base, entire, with margin slightly thickened, acute or acuminate. They come out of the bud conduplicate, coated beneath with rusty tomentum, when full grown are thick, dark green, very shining above, pale and often hairy beneath. Feather-veined, midrib and primary veins prominent beneath. In autumn they turn bright scarlet, or yellow and scarlet. Petioles one-quarter to one-half an inch long, slender or stout, terete or margined, often red.
 * Flowers: May, June, when leaves are half grown. Polygamodiœcious, yellowish green, borne on slender downy peduncles. Staminate in many-flowered heads; pistillate in two to several flowered clusters.
 * Calyx: Cup-shaped, five-toothed.
 * Corolla: Petals five, imbricate in bud, yellow green, ovate, thick, slightly spreading, inserted on the margin of the conspicuous disk.
 * Stamens: Five to twelve. In staminate flowers exserted, in pistillate short, often wanting.
 * Pistil: Ovary inferior, one to two-celled; style stout, exserted, reflexed above the middle. Entirely wanting in sterile flower. Ovules, one in each cell.
 * Fruit: Fleshy drupe, one to three from each flower cluster. Ovoid, two-thirds of an inch long, dark blue, acid. Stone more or less ridged. October.

Distribution
Nyssa sylvatica grows in various uplands and in alluvial stream bottoms from southwestern Maine and New York, to extreme southern Ontario, central Michigan, Illinois, and central Missouri, south to southern Florida, eastern Texas, and eastern Oklahoma. Optimum development is made on lower slopes and terraces in the Southeastern United States. It also occurs locally in the mountains of eastern and southern Mexico, where it is found in the southern Sierra Madre Oriental and Sierra Madre de Oaxaca of Hidalgo, Puebla, and Veracruz states and the Chiapas Highlands of Chiapas.

Ecology
Nyssa sylvatica is found in a variety of upland and wetland habitats in its extensive range. Its flowers are an important source of nectar and its fruits are important to many birds and mammals. Hollow trunks provide nesting or denning opportunities for bees and various mammals. It is the longest living non-clonal flowering plant in Eastern North America, capable of obtaining ages of over 650 years.

Habitats
Nyssa sylvatica is found in a wide range of climates, due to its extensive distribution. It commonly grows in both the creek bottoms of the southern coastal plains, to altitudes of about 900 m in the Southern Appalachians. These trees grow best on well-drained, light-textured soils on the low ridges of second bottoms and on the high flats of silty alluvium. In the uplands it grows best on the loams and clay loams of lower slopes and coves.

The species occurs 35 different forest cover types. When found on drier upper slopes and ridges, it is seldom of log size or quality.

In Mexico it is a common species in montane cloud forests, particularly in moist or riparian habitats, between 1,000 and 2,200 meters elevation.

Wildlife
Nyssa sylvatica is an important food source for many migrating birds in the fall [autumn]. Its early color change (foliar fruit flagging) is thought to attract birds to the available fruit, which ripen before many other fall fruits and berries. The fruit is quite marked, dark blue, in clusters of two or three. The sour fruits are eagerly sought by many kinds of birds, including: American robin, Swainson's thrush, gray-cheeked thrush, hermit thrush, wood thrush, northern cardinal, northern mockingbird, blue jay, red-bellied woodpecker, yellow-bellied sapsucker, northern flicker, pileated woodpecker, eastern phoebe, brown thrasher, eastern bluebird, European starling, scarlet tanager, gray catbird, cedar waxwing, and American crow, all primarily eastern North American birds migrating or residing year-round within the tree's range.

The limbs of these trees often deteriorate early, and the decayed holes make excellent dens for squirrels, raccoons, Virginia opossums, as well as nesting sites for feral honeybees.

The leaves are mined by larvae of the tupelo leafminer moth and eaten by forest tent caterpillars.

Cultivation
Nyssa sylvatica is cultivated as an ornamental tree in parks and large gardens, where it is often used as a specimen or shade tree. The tree is best when grown in sheltered but not crowded positions, developing a pyramidal shape in youth, and spreading with age. The stem rises to the summit of the tree in one tapering unbroken shaft, the branches come out at right angles to the trunk and either extend horizontally or droop a little, making a long-narrow, cone-like head.

The leaves are short-petioled and so have little individual motion, but the branches sway as a whole. The spray is fine and abundant and lies horizontally so that the foliage arrangement is not unlike that of the beech (Fagus). Its often spectacular autumnal coloring, with intense reds to purples, is highly valued in landscape settings. It is claimed to be the most fiery and brilliant of the 'brilliant group' that includes maple, dogwood, sassafras, and sweet gum, as well as various species of tupelo.

In the UK the cultivar 'Wisley Bonfire' has gained the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit.

Honey production
Nyssa sylvatica is a major source of wild honey in many areas within its range. Hollow sections of black gum trunks were formerly used as bee gums by beekeepers.

Wood
The wood of Nyssa sylvatica is heavy, hard, cross-grained, and difficult to split, especially after drying. This resistance to splitting led to its use for making mauls, pulleys, wheel hubs, agricultural rollers, bowls, and paving blocks. The wood is also used for pallets, rough floors, pulpwood, and firewood. Since the wood is very tough, resistant to wear, it has been used for shuttles in weaving. Because it is resistant to wear and very readily accepts creosote-based preservatives it is considered to be a premier wood for making railroad ties. The wood's resistance to wear and some acids has led to its use as factory flooring.

Teeth-cleaning twig
It was also used traditionally by Native Americans as a teeth-cleaning twig. It also was used for dipping snuff.

title: Nyssa sylvatica


text:
Talk:The Rite of Spring

Most recorded classical repertoire?
Hi there. I understand under the "recordings" section, it is noted that it is the most recorded 20th century classical repertoire, I have no objection to that. Yet in the intro paragraph it simply said it was one of the most recorded repertoire in classical music. I find this statement will require very strong and much more comprehensive citations. I would suggest changing it to "one of the most recorded 20th century classical music" to be consistent with the citation. I also do not believe that there is any way to reliably track the number of recordings out there, and if so, what number of recording counts as "one of the most recorded" (top 10? top 50?) Let me know your thoughts. Thank you. Kazuha1029 (talk) 23:20, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I find WorldCat a useful and reliable guide. One has to be on the look-out for duplicate reissues, of course, but with that caveat I suggest you look there.  Tim riley  talk   15:30, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I played around with the website. Could you kindly explain how the editor arrived at the conclusion that Rite of Spring is indeed "one of the most recorded" music? What is the methodology? You also did not address my concern that there is no way to effectively rank the number of recordings or reliably classify them. "most recorded" is also a vague term as it could mean top 3, top 10, top 50, top 100, etc. My recommendation is to change it to "most recorded 20th century classical music". Please let me know your thoughts. Kazuha1029 (talk) 15:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I cannot answer your question about the main author's thought processes as to my sorrow and that of countless other Wikipedians he died a year or so ago, and is still sorely missed. Let us see if there is consensus among other editors in favour of your proposed alteration, but a quick Googling throws up numerous references to the Rite as one of the most recorded works: see, for example, p. 18 here   Tim riley  talk   15:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Martial-v-marital
An IP altered this: "One of the young girls is selected by fate, being twice caught in the perpetual circle, and is honoured as the "Chosen One" with a martial dance" to change "martial" to "marital". I reverted the change but on second thoughts unreverted it. I'm not at all sure which is appropriate here, and would be glad of other editors' thoughts.  Tim riley  talk   13:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

 * I'd suggest we just say she's honoured with a dance. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Am meeting SchroCat, Ian Rose and Cassianto this evening at the Wehwalt Arms, where many happy hours were spent in the company of Brian Boulton, onlie begetter of this article. We shall raise a glass to him.  Tim riley  talk   14:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well I don't think a marriage is part of the story at all, so 'marital' seems out of place. I assume BB's use of 'martial', was to evoke the warlike, intense atmosphere of the music, which seems fair-enough. If it is removed alla Nikkimaria, I'd suggest another synonym in its place, since the word "dance" alone may not properly convey the rather startling intensity it includes. Although I am a bit embarrassed to write this much about a single word!  Aza24  (talk)   17:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

 * ”Martial” or just “dance” would be my thoughts, but how do the sources describe it? That’s normally the best place to get a proper steer. - SchroCat (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, all. I've listened to the composer's recording and to Boulez's and have replaced the adjective with "forceful". No WP:RS for this, but I think my tinkering will pass muster.  Tim riley  talk   20:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Score changes
Can somebody please check if the two edits to scores (violin to cello and tuba to trombone) made on 11 March are correct? JennyOz (talk) 05:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Rite of Spring