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Seminole

The Seminole are a Native American people who developed in Florida in the 18th century. Today, they live in Oklahoma and Florida, and comprise three federally recognized tribes: the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, the Seminole Tribe of Florida, and the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, as well as independent groups. The Seminole people emerged in a process of ethnogenesis from various Native American groups who settled in Spanish Florida beginning in the early 1700s, most significantly northern Muscogee Creeks from what are now Georgia and Alabama.

Old crafts and traditions were revived in both Florida and Oklahoma in the mid-20th century as the Seminole began seeking revenue from tourists traveling along the new interstate highway system. In the 1970s, Seminole tribes began to run small bingo games on their reservations to raise revenue. They won court challenges to initiate Indian gaming on their sovereign land. Many U.S. tribes have likewise adopted this practice where state laws have gambling, in order to generate revenues for welfare, education, and development.

Since the late 20th century, the Seminole Tribe of Florida has been particularly successful with gambling establishments, attracting many of the numerous tourists to the state. In 2007 it purchased the Hard Rock Café and has rebranded or opened several casinos and gaming resorts under that name. These include two large resorts on its Tampa and Hollywood reservations; together these projects cost more than a billion dollars to construct.

Etymology and culture
The word "Seminole" is almost certainly derived from the Creek word simanó-li. This has been variously translated as "frontiersman", "outcast", "runaway", "separatist", and similar words. The Creek word may be derived from the Spanish word cimarrón, meaning "runaway" or "wild one", historically used for certain Native American groups in Florida. The people who constituted the nucleus of this Florida group either chose to leave their tribe or were banished. At one time, the terms "renegade" and "outcast" were used to describe this status, but the terms have fallen into disuse due to their negative connotations. The Seminole identify as yat'siminoli or "free people" because for centuries their ancestors had successfully resisted efforts to subdue or convert them to Roman Catholicism. They signed several treaties with the U.S. government, including the Treaty of Moultrie Creek and the Treaty of Paynes Landing.

Seminole culture is largely derived from that of the Creek. One of the more significant holdovers from the Creek was the Green Corn Dance ceremony. Other notable traditions include use of the black drink and ritual tobacco. As the Seminoles adapted to Florida environs, they developed local traditions, such as the construction of open-air, thatched-roof houses known as chickees. Historically the Seminoles spoke Mikasuki and Creek, both Muskogean languages.

Origins
Florida had been the home of several indigenous cultures prior to the arrival of European explorers in the early 1500s. However, the introduction of Eurasian infectious diseases, along with conflict with Spanish colonists, led to a drastic decline of Florida's original native population. By the early 1700s, much of La Florida was uninhabited apart from Spanish colonial towns at St. Augustine and Pensacola. A stream of mainly Muscogee Creek began moving into the territory at that time to escape conflict with English colonists to the north and established their own towns, mainly in the Florida panhandle.

Native American refugees from northern wars, such as the Yuchi and Yamasee after the Yamasee War in South Carolina, migrated into Spanish Florida in the early 18th century. More arrived in the second half of the 18th century, as the Lower Creeks, part of the Muscogee people, began to migrate from several of their towns into Florida to evade the dominance of the Upper Creeks and pressure from encroaching colonists from the Province of Carolina. They spoke primarily Hitchiti, of which Mikasuki is a dialect. This is the primary traditional language spoken today by the Miccosukee in Florida. Also fleeing to Florida were African Americans who had escaped from slavery in the Southern Colonies.

The new arrivals moved into virtually uninhabited lands that had once been peopled by several cultures indigenous to Florida, such as the Apalachee, Timucua, Calusa and others. The native population had been devastated by infectious diseases brought by Spanish explorers in the 1500s and later colonization by additional European settlers. Later, raids by Carolina and Native American slavers destroyed the string of Spanish missions across northern Florida. Most of the survivors left for Cuba when the Spanish withdrew, after ceding Florida to the British in 1763, following Britain's victory in the French and Indian War.

While John Swanton stated in the mid-20th century that the Seminole encountered and absorbed the Calusa who had remained in southwest Florida after the Spanish withdrew, more recent scholarship since the turn of the 21st century holds that there is no documentary evidence of that assertion.

1700s to early 1800s
As they established themselves in northern and peninsular Florida throughout the 1700s, the various new arrivals intermingled with each other and with the few remaining indigenous people. In a process of ethnogenesis, they constructed a new culture which they called "Seminole", a derivative of the Mvskoke' (a Creek language) word simano-li, an adaptation of the Spanish cimarrón which means "wild" (in their case, "wild men"), or "runaway" [men]. The Seminole were a heterogeneous tribe made up of mostly Lower Creeks from Georgia, who by the time of the Creek War (1813–1814) numbered about 4,000 in Florida. At that time, numerous refugees of the Red Sticks migrated south, adding about 2,000 people to the population. They were Creek-speaking Muscogee, and were the ancestors of most of the later Creek-speaking Seminole. In addition, a few hundred escaped African-American slaves (known as the Black Seminoles) had settled near the Seminole towns and, to a lesser extent, Native Americans from other tribes, and some white Americans. The unified Seminole spoke two languages: Creek and Mikasuki (mutually intelligible with its dialect Hitchiti), two among the Muskogean languages family. Creek became the dominant language for political and social discourse, so Mikasuki speakers learned it if participating in high-level negotiations. The Muskogean language group includes Choctaw and Chickasaw, associated with two other major Southeastern tribes.

In part due to the arrival of Native Americans from other cultures, the Seminole became increasingly independent of other Creek groups and established their own identity through ethnogenesis. They developed a thriving trade network by the time of the British and second Spanish periods (roughly 1767–1821). The tribe expanded considerably during this time, and was further supplemented from the late 18th century by escaped slaves from Southern plantations who settled near and paid tribute to Seminole towns. The latter became known as Black Seminoles, although they kept many facets of their own Gullah culture.

During the colonial years, the Seminole were on relatively good terms with both the Spanish and the British. In 1784, after the American Revolutionary War, Britain came to a settlement with Spain and transferred East and West Florida to it.

The Spanish Empire's decline enabled the Seminole to settle more deeply into Florida. They were led by a dynasty of chiefs of the Alachua chiefdom, founded in eastern Florida in the 18th century by Cowkeeper. Beginning in 1825, Micanopy was the principal chief of the unified Seminole, until his death in 1849, after removal to Indian Territory. This chiefly dynasty lasted past Removal, when the US forced the majority of Seminole to move from Florida to the Indian Territory (modern Oklahoma) after the Second Seminole War. Micanopy's sister's son, John Jumper, succeeded him in 1849 and, after his death in 1853, his brother Jim Jumper became principal chief. He was in power through the American Civil War, after which the U.S. government began to interfere with tribal government, supporting its own candidate for chief.

After raids by Anglo-American colonists on Seminole settlements in the mid-18th century, the Seminole retaliated by raiding the Southern Colonies (primarily Georgia), purportedly at the behest of the Spanish. The Seminoles also maintained a tradition of accepting escaped slaves from Southern plantations, infuriating planters in the American South by providing a route for their slaves to escape bondage.

After the United States achieved independence, the U.S. Army and local militia groups made increasingly frequent incursions into Spanish Florida to recapture escaped slaves living among the Seminole. American general Andrew Jackson's 1817–1818 campaign against the Seminoles became known as the First Seminole War. Though Spain decried the incursions into its territory, the United States effectively controlled the Florida panhandle after the war.

Seminole Wars

In 1819, the United States and Spain signed the Adams-Onís Treaty, which took effect in 1821. According to its terms, the United States acquired Florida and, in exchange, renounced all claims to Texas. President James Monroe appointed Andrew Jackson as military governor of Florida. As European American colonization increased after the treaty, colonists pressured the federal government to remove Natives from Florida. Slaveholders resented that tribes harbored runaway black slaves, and more colonists wanted access to desirable lands held by Native Americans. Georgian slaveholders wanted the "maroons" and fugitive slaves living among the Seminoles, known today as Black Seminoles, returned to slavery.

After acquisition by the U.S. of Florida in 1821, many American slaves and Black Seminoles frequently escaped from Cape Florida to the British colony of the Bahamas, settling mostly on Andros Island. Contemporary accounts noted a group of 120 migrating in 1821, and a much larger group of 300 enslaved African Americans escaping in 1823. The latter were picked up by Bahamians in 27 sloops and also by travelers in canoes. They developed a village known as Red Bays on Andros.

Under colonists' pressure, the U.S. government made the 1823 Treaty of Camp Moultrie with the Seminoles, seizing 24 million acres in northern Florida. They offered the Seminoles a much smaller reservation in the Everglades, of about 100,000 acres. They and the Black Seminoles moved into central and southern Florida.

In 1832, the U.S. government signed the Treaty of Payne's Landing with a few of the Seminole chiefs. They promised lands west of the Mississippi River if the chiefs agreed to leave Florida voluntarily with their people. The Seminoles who remained prepared for war. White colonists continued to press for their removal.

In 1835, the U.S. Army arrived to enforce the treaty. The Seminole leader Osceola led the vastly outnumbered resistance during the Second Seminole War. Drawing on a population of about 4,000 Seminoles and 800 allied Black Seminoles, he mustered at most 1,400 warriors (President Andrew Jackson estimated they had only 900). They countered combined U.S. Army and militia forces that ranged from 6,000 troops at the outset to 9,000 at the peak of deployment in 1837. To survive, the Seminole allies employed guerrilla tactics with devastating effect against U.S. forces, as they knew how to move within the Everglades and use this area for their protection. Osceola was arrested (in a breach of honor) when he came under a flag of truce to negotiations with the US in 1837. He died in jail less than a year later. He was decapitated, his body buried without his head.

Other war chiefs, such as Halleck Tustenuggee and John Jumper, and the Black Seminoles Abraham and John Horse, continued the Seminole resistance against the army. After a full decade of fighting, the war ended in 1842. Scholars estimate the U.S. government spent about $40,000,000 on the war, at the time a huge sum. An estimated 3,000 Seminoles and 800 Black Seminoles were forcibly exiled to Indian Territory west of the Mississippi, where they were settled on the Creek reservation. After later skirmishes in the Third Seminole War (1855–1858), perhaps 200 survivors retreated deep into the Everglades to land that was not desired by settlers. They were finally left alone and they never surrendered.

Several treaties seem to bear the mark of representatives of the Seminole tribe, including the Treaty of Moultrie Creek and the Treaty of Payne's Landing. The Florida Seminoles say they are the only tribe in America never to have signed a peace treaty with the U.S. government.

American Civil War
During the American Civil War, the Confederate government of Florida offered aid to keep the Seminoles from fighting on the side of the Union. The Florida House of Representatives established a Committee on Indian Affairs in 1862 but, aside from appointing a representative to negotiate with the Seminole tribe, failed to follow its promises of aid. The lack of aid, along with the growing number of Federal troops and pro-unionists in the state, led the Seminoles to remain officially neutral throughout the war. In July 1864, Secretary of War James A. Seddon received word that a man named A. McBride had raised a company of sixty-five Seminole who had volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. McBride claimed to have an understanding of Florida because of the time he had spent there fighting during the Seminole wars. While McBride never put such a company in the field, this letter shows how the Confederacy attempted to use Seminole warriors against the Union.

Other leaders, such as Halleck Tustenuggee and Sonuk Mikko (Billy Bowlegs), refused to sign, withdrew from Florida, and joined with the Union.

After the war, the United States government declared void all prior treaties with the Seminoles of Indian Country because of the "disloyalty" of some in allying with the Confederacy. They required new peace treaties, establishing such conditions as reducing the power of tribal councils, providing freedom or tribal membership for Black Seminoles (at the same time that enslaved African Americans were being emancipated in the South), and forced concessions of tribal land for railroads and other development.

Post-Seminole Wars and the 20th century
The 1868 Florida Constitution, developed by the Reconstruction legislature, gave the Seminoles one seat in the house and one seat in the senate of the state legislature. The Seminoles never filled the positions. After white Democrats regained control over the legislature, they removed this provision from the post-Reconstruction constitution they ratified in 1885. In the early 20th century, the Florida Seminoles re-established limited relations with the U.S. government. The Seminoles maintained a thriving trade business with white merchants during this period, selling alligator hides, bird plumes, and other items sourced from the Everglades. Then, in 1906, Governor Napoleon B. Broward began an effort to drain the Everglades in attempt to convert the wetlands into farmland. The plan to drain the Everglades, new federal and state laws ending the plume trade, and the start of World War I (which put a halt to international fashion trade), all contributed to a major decline in the demand for Seminole goods.

In 1930, they received 5000 acre of reservation lands. Few Seminoles moved to these reservations until the 1940s. They reorganized their government and received federal recognition in 1957 as the Seminole Tribe of Florida. During this process, the more traditional people near the Tamiami Trail defined themselves as independent. They received federal recognition as the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians in Florida in 1962.

During World War II, roughly sixty-five Seminoles fled into the Everglades to avoid registering for the draft. The superintendent of the Seminole Indian agency in Dania was able to convince all but two of the group to eventually register.

In the 1950s, the Oklahoma and Florida Seminole tribes filed land claim suits, claiming they had not received adequate compensation for their lands. Their suits were combined in the government's settlement of 1976. The Seminole tribes and Traditionals took until 1990 to negotiate an agreement as to division of the settlement, a judgment trust against which members can draw for education and other benefits. The Florida Seminoles founded a high-stakes bingo game on their reservation in the late 1970s, winning court challenges to initiate Native American gaming, which many tribes have adopted to generate revenues for welfare, education, and development.

After removal, the Seminoles in Oklahoma and Florida had little official contact until well into the 20th century. They developed along similar lines as the groups strove to maintain their culture while struggling economically. Most Seminoles in Indian Territory lived on tribal lands centered in what is now Seminole County of the state of Oklahoma. The implementation of the Dawes Rolls in the late 1890s parceled out tribal lands in preparation for the admission of Oklahoma as a state, reducing most Seminoles to subsistence farming on small individual homesteads. While some tribe members left the territory to seek better opportunities, most remained. Today, residents of the reservation are enrolled in the federally recognized Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, while others belong to unorganized groups. The Florida Seminole re-established limited relations with the U.S. government in the early 1900s and were officially granted 5000 acre of reservation land in south Florida in 1930. Members gradually moved to the land, and they reorganized their government and received federal recognition as the Seminole Tribe of Florida in 1957. The more traditional people living near the Tamiami Trail received federal recognition as the Miccosukee Tribe in 1962.

Political and social organization
The Seminoles were organized around itálwa, the basis of their social, political and ritual systems, and roughly equivalent to towns or bands in English. They had a matrilineal kinship system, in which children are considered born into their mother's family and clan, and property and hereditary roles pass through the maternal line. Males held the leading political and social positions. Each itálwa had civil, military and religious leaders; they were self-governing throughout the nineteenth century, but would cooperate for mutual defense. The itálwa continued to be the basis of Seminole society in Oklahoma into the 21st century.

Languages
Historically, the various groups of Seminoles spoke two mutually unintelligible Muskogean languages: Mikasuki (and its dialect, Hitchiti) and Muscogee. Mikasuki is now restricted to Florida, where it was the native language of 1,600 people as of 2000, primarily the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida. The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma is working to revive the use of Creek among its people, as it had been the dominant language of politics and social discourse.

Muscogee is spoken by some Oklahoma Seminoles and about 200 older Florida Seminoles (the youngest native speaker was born in 1960). Today English is the predominant language among both Oklahoma and Florida Seminoles, particularly the younger generations. Most Mikasuki speakers are bilingual.

Ethnobotany
The Seminole use the spines of Cirsium horridulum (also called bristly thistle) to make blowgun darts.

Contemporary
During the Seminole Wars, the Seminole people began to divide among themselves due to the conflict and differences in ideology. The Seminole population had also been growing significantly, though it was diminished by the wars. With the division of the Seminole population between Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and Florida, they still maintained some common traditions, such as powwow trails and ceremonies. In general, the cultures grew apart in their markedly different circumstances, and had little contact for a century.

The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, and the Seminole Tribe of Florida and Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, described below, are federally recognized, independent nations that operate in their own spheres.

Religion
Seminole tribes generally follow Christianity, both Protestantism and Catholicism. They also observe their traditional Native religion, which is expressed through the stomp dance and the Green Corn Ceremony held at their ceremonial grounds. Indigenous peoples have practiced Green Corn rituals for centuries. Contemporary southeastern Native American tribes, such as the Seminole and Muscogee Creek, still practice these ceremonies. As converted Christian Seminoles established their own churches, they incorporated their traditions and beliefs into a syncretic indigenous-Western practice. For example, Seminole hymns sung in the indigenous (Muscogee) language are inclusive of key Muscogee language terms (for example, the Muscogee term "mekko" or chief conflates with "Jesus"). Also, hymns are frequently led by a song leader (a traditional indigenous song practice).

In the 1950s, federal projects in Florida encouraged the tribe's reorganization. They created organizations within tribal governance to promote modernization. As Christian pastors began preaching on reservations, Green Corn Ceremony attendance decreased. This created tension between religiously traditional Seminoles and those who began adopting Christianity. In the 1960s and 1970s, some tribal members on reservations, such as the Brighton Seminole Indian Reservation in Florida, viewed organized Christianity as a threat to their traditions.

By the 1980s, Seminole communities were even more concerned about loss of language and tradition. Many tribal members began to revive the observance of traditional Green Corn Dance ceremonies, and some shifted away from Christian observance. By 2000, religious tension between Green Corn Dance attendees and Christians (particularly Baptists) decreased. Some Seminole families participate in both religions; these practitioners have developed a syncretic Christianity that has absorbed some tribal traditions.

Land claims
In 1946, the Department of Interior established the Indian Claims Commission, to consider compensation for tribes that claimed their lands were seized by the federal government during times of conflict. Tribes seeking settlements had to file claims by August 1961, and both the Oklahoma and Florida Seminoles did so. After combining their claims, the Commission awarded the Seminole a total of $16 million in April 1976. It had established that, at the time of the 1823 Treaty of Moultrie Creek, the Seminole exclusively occupied and used 24 million acres in Florida, which they ceded under the treaty. Assuming that most blacks in Florida were escaped slaves, the United States did not recognize the Black Seminoles as legally members of the tribe, nor as free in Florida under Spanish rule. Although the Black Seminoles also owned or controlled land that was seized in this cession, they were not acknowledged in the treaty.

In 1976, the groups struggled on allocation of funds among the Oklahoma and Florida tribes. Based on early 20th century population records, at which time most of the people were full-blood, the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma was to receive three-quarters of the judgment and the Florida peoples one-quarter. The Miccosukee and allied Traditionals filed suit against the settlement in 1976 to refuse the money; they did not want to give up their claim for return of lands in Florida.

The federal government put the settlement in trust until the court cases could be decided. The Oklahoma and Florida tribes entered negotiations, which was their first sustained contact in the more than a century since removal. In 1990, the settlement was awarded: three-quarters to the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma and one-quarter to the Seminoles of Florida, including the Miccosukee. By that time the total settlement was worth $40 million. The tribes have set up judgment trusts, which fund programs to benefit their people, such as education and health.

As a result of the Second Seminole War (1835–1842) about 3,800 Seminoles and Black Seminoles were forcibly removed to Indian Territory (the modern state of Oklahoma). During the American Civil War, the members and leaders split over their loyalties, with John Chupco refusing to sign a treaty with the Confederacy. From 1861 to 1866, he led as chief of the Seminole who supported the Union and fought in the Indian Brigade.

The split among the Seminoles lasted until 1872. After the war, the United States government negotiated only with the loyal Seminole, requiring the tribe to make a new peace treaty to cover those who allied with the Confederacy, to emancipate the slaves, and to extend tribal citizenship to those freedmen who chose to stay in Seminole territory.

The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma now has about 16,000 enrolled members, who are divided into a total of fourteen bands; for the Seminole members, these are similar to tribal clans. The Seminole have a society based on a matrilineal kinship system of descent and inheritance: children are born into their mother's band and derive their status from her people. To the end of the nineteenth century, they spoke mostly Mikasuki and Creek.

Two of the fourteen are "Freedmen Bands," composed of members descended from Black Seminoles, who were legally freed by the U.S. and tribal nations after the Civil War. They have a tradition of extended patriarchal families in close communities. While the elite interacted with the Seminoles, most of the Freedmen were involved most closely with other Freedmen. They maintained their own culture, religion and social relationships. At the turn of the 20th century, they still spoke mostly Afro-Seminole Creole, a language developed in Florida related to other African-based Creole languages.

The Nation is ruled by an elected council, with two members from each of the fourteen bands, including the Freedmen's bands. The capital is at Wewoka, Oklahoma.

The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma has had tribal citizenship disputes related to the Seminole Freedmen, both in terms of their sharing in a judgment trust awarded in settlement of a land claim suit, and their membership in the Nation.

Florida Seminoles
The remaining few hundred Seminoles survived in the Florida swamplands, avoiding removal. They lived in the Everglades, to isolate themselves from European Americans. Seminoles continued their distinctive life, such as "clan-based matrilocal residence in scattered thatched-roof chickee camps." Today, the Florida Seminoles proudly note the fact that their ancestors were never conquered.

In the 20th century before World War II, the Seminoles in Florida divided into two groups; those who were more traditional and those willing to adapt to the reservations. Those who accepted reservation lands and made adaptations achieved federal recognition in 1957 as the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

Many of those who had kept to traditional ways and spoke the Mikasuki language organized as the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, gaining state recognition in 1957 and federal recognition in 1962. (See also Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, below.) With federal recognition, they gained reservation lands and worked out a separate arrangement with the state for control of extensive wetlands. Other Seminole not affiliated with either of the federally recognized groups are known as Traditional or Independent Seminole, known formally as the Council of the Original Miccosukee Simanolee Nation Aboriginal People.

At the time the tribes were recognized, in 1957 and 1962, respectively, they entered into agreements with the US government confirming their sovereignty over tribal lands.

Seminole Tribe of Florida
The Seminoles worked hard to adapt, but they were highly affected by the rapidly changing American environment. Natural disasters magnified changes from the governmental drainage project of the Everglades. Residential, agricultural, and business development changed the "natural, social, political, and economic environment" of the Seminoles. In the 1930s, the Seminoles slowly began to move onto federally designated reservation lands within the region. The U.S. government had purchased lands and put them in trust for Seminole use. Initially, few Seminoles had any interest in moving to the reservation land or in establishing more formal relations with the government. Some feared that if they moved onto reservations, they would be forced to move to Oklahoma. Others accepted the move in hopes of stability, jobs promised by the Indian New Deal, or as new converts to Christianity.

Beginning in the 1940s, more Seminoles began to move to the reservations. A major catalyst for this was the conversion of many Seminole to Christianity, following missionary effort spearheaded by the Creek Baptist evangelist Stanley Smith. For the new converts, relocating to the reservations afforded them the opportunity to establish their own churches, where they adapted traditions to incorporate into their style of Christianity. Reservation Seminoles began forming tribal governments and forming ties with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. In 1957 the nation reorganized and established formal relations with the U.S. government as the Seminole Tribe of Florida. The Seminole Tribe of Florida is headquartered in Hollywood, Florida. They control several reservations: Big Cypress, Brighton Reservation, Fort Pierce Reservation, Hollywood Reservation, Immokalee Reservation, and Tampa Reservation.

Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida
A traditional group who became known as the Trail Indians moved their camps closer to the Tamiami Trail connecting Tampa and Miami, where they could sell crafts to travelers. They felt disfranchised by the move of the Seminoles to reservations, who they felt were adopting too many European American ways. Their differences were exacerbated in 1950 when some reservation Seminoles filed a land claim suit against the federal government for seizure of lands in the 19th century, an action that the Trail Indians did not support.

Following federal recognition of the Seminole Tribe of Florida in 1957, the Trail Indians decided to organize a separate government. They sought recognition as the Miccosukee Tribe, as they spoke the Mikasuki language. It was not intelligible to Creek speakers, but some members of each group were bilingual in the two languages, especially as the Creek-speaking Seminole were more numerous.

The Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida received federal recognition in 1962. The federal government assigned them their own reservation lands, collectively known as the Miccosukee Indian Reservation. The Miccosukee Tribe set up a 333 acre reservation on the northern border of Everglades National Park, about 45 mi west of Miami.

Commerce
In the United States 2000 census, 12,431 people self-reported as Seminole American. An additional 15,000 people identified as Seminole in combination with some other tribal affiliation or race.

The Seminoles in Florida have been engaged in stock raising since the mid-1930s, when they received cattle from western Native Americans. The Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) hoped that the cattle raising would teach Seminoles to become citizens by adapting to agricultural settlements. The BIA also hoped that this program would lead to Seminole self-sufficiency. Cattle owners realized that by using their cattle as equity, they could engage in "new capital-intensive pursuits", such as housing.

Since then, the two Florida tribes have developed economies based chiefly on sales of duty-free tobacco, heritage and resort tourism, and gaming. On December 7, 2006, the Seminole Tribe of Florida purchased the Hard Rock Cafe chain of restaurants. They had previously licensed it for several of their casinos.

From beginnings in the 1930s during the Great Depression, the Seminole Tribe of Florida today owns "one of the largest cattle operations in Florida, and the 12th largest in the nation. In the early 20th century, Florida had a population boom after the Flagler railroad to Miami was completed. The state attracted a growing number of tourists from the North and Midwest, stimulating the development of many resort towns. In the following years, many Seminoles took jobs in the cultural tourism trade. By the 1920s, many Seminoles were involved in service jobs. In addition, they were able to market their culture by selling traditional craft products (made mostly by women) and by exhibitions of traditional skills, such as wrestling alligators (by men). Some of the crafts included woodcarving, basket weaving, beadworking, patchworking, and palmetto-doll making. These crafts are still practiced today.

In the 21st century, as gaming has become lucrative for the tribes, fewer Seminoles rely on crafts for income. The Miccosukee Tribe earns revenue by owning and operating a casino, resort, a golf club, several museum attractions, and "Indian Village". At "Indian Village", Miccosukee demonstrate traditional, pre-contact lifestyles to educate people about their culture.

"In 1979, the Seminoles opened the first casino on Indian land, ushering in what has become a multibillion-dollar industry operated by numerous tribes nationwide." This casino was the first tribally operated bingo hall in North America. Since its establishment, gaming on Native American sovereign land has been expanded under federal and state laws, and become a major source of revenue for tribal governments. Tribal gaming has provided secure employment, and the revenues have supported higher education, health insurance, services for the elderly, and personal income. In more recent years, income from the gaming industry has funded major economic projects, such as acquisition and development of sugarcane fields, citrus groves, cattle ranches, ecotourism, and commercial agriculture.

Numerous Florida place names honor the Seminole:
 * Seminole County;
 * Osceola County;
 * Seminole, a city in Pinellas County;
 * Seminole, a small community in Okaloosa County.
 * Historic Seminole Heights, a residential district in Tampa, Florida.

There is also a Seminole County in Oklahoma, and a Seminole County in the southwest corner of Georgia (separated from Florida by Lake Seminole).

Population history
Seminole population appeared to be increasing during the early 19th century. It was estimated at 5,000 people in 1820 then 4,883 people in 1821 (as reported by Neamathla) then at 6,385 people in 1822 (as reported by Captain Hugh Young) and at up to 10,000 people in 1836 (at the beginning of the Second Seminole War). Perhaps the population was increasing due to continued immigration of Indians to Florida, as well as due to assimilation of the remnants of tribes native to the region. However, during the Second Seminole War the Indians suffered heavy casualties. On 25 November 1841 it was reported that 623 Seminoles had already been removed from Florida, with 3,190 at that time undergoing removal or about to be removed, and the number of those who stayed in Florida was estimated in that report at 575. Another source says that in total around 4,000 Seminole were removed to Indian Territory in years 1832-1842. After their removal to Oklahoma, the Seminole population there numbered around 3,000 people in 1884 according to the enumeration published in 1886. The census of 1910 reported only 1,729 Seminole.

title: Seminole


text:
1st Extreme Ironing World Championships

The 1st Extreme Ironing World Championships was the inaugural championship for the British sport of extreme ironing.

The first event, held in mid-September 2002 in Valley, Bavaria, a small village near Munich in the district Miesbach, was host to competitors from ten nations, comprising 12 teams (three were from Britain).

Competing countries

 * Austria
 * Australia
 * Chile
 * Croatia
 * Great Britain; three teams called GB1, GB2, GB3
 * Germany

Ironing championship sections

 * Urban- Involved ironing in/on/around a broken down car.
 * Water- A fast flowing river was the location for this station. Competitors could use surfboards, canoes or rubber rings to help them.
 * Forest- Ironing at the top of a tree did not suit all the competitors.
 * Lauda- A purpose built climbing wall, which ironists had to climb and iron a T-shirt.
 * Freestyle- The section where "anything goes".

Results
The GB1 and GB3 teams managed to win the gold and bronze team medals. German and Austrian competitors picked up the individual prizes. 1st Place Chrissy Quaid. 2nd Place Jade Dunn. 3rd Place Becca Rogers.

Competitors were tested on their abilities to cope with five arduous ironing tests on a variety of fabrics and in different environments ranging from rocky to forest, urban and water. A 70-strong contingent gathered in a muddy field to combine the often mundane household task with "extreme" pursuits such as rock climbing. They were judged on their creative ironing skills as well as the creases in the clothing. The British team prepared for the championships in different locations such as Ben Nevis, Scafell Pike and Snowdon in the hope of winning prizes including a holiday in Hawaii, washing machines and other household goods.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: 1st Extreme Ironing World Championships


text:
Talk:List of messiah claimants

Linking?
I had an existential crisis, trying to decide—should I backlink this to list of people by belief or list of people by occupation

(the next time some officious technocrat asks me for my occupation, I might just fill in messiah. If nothing else, it'll be good for a discount on my car insurance) Martin

Naming?
Would List of claimed messiahs be better than List of messiah claimants? The article says that it also includes people whose followers asserted that they were messiahs. -- Oliver P. 01:18 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * Claimant also has a secondary meaning of one who has claim on something and would thus encompass those who followers assert has a claim to being a messiah. The primary meaning is true for most if not all on the list.  SCCarlson 06:02 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Jesus
I think that asserting that "Jesus did not claim to be the Messiah" is unnecessarily tendentious. Some people claim he did; some people claim he didn't, and we don't have to decide the question in order to place him on this list. I also don't see much need for "His followers formed Christianity" which is true but seems tangential. YMMD. -- Someone else 06:50 22 May 2003 (UTC)

 * So did no one claim before Jesus? lysdexia 15:55, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I was looking for information about Messiah claimants at around the time of Jesus. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that there were certain Jewish groups who anticipated the imminent arrival of a Messiah. Perhaps John the baptist was one of them?. I though, again perhaps wrongly, that a number of such Messiah claimants were killed by the Romans and/or Jewish authorities in and around that time? Yet there is no mention of them in this Wiki. Michael Cole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.148.244 (talk) 08:17, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

It is misleading to mention Muslims as believers in Jesus just after referring to Jesus as a crucified leader, because the Quran states very explicitly that "Isa" (claimed to be Jesus) was not crucified, and that some other guy was on the cross. - Chris Schmidt 21:20 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * "Believers in Jesus" is so vague that it is meaningless. And you have extracted one small aspect of Islam's view of Jesus. Read Jesus in Islam for more details. Sundayclose (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The section defines Jesus as "leader of a Jewish sect who was crucified", which is unfortunately not vague in a way that avoids the conflict with the Islamic idea of Jesus. See Jesus in Islam for confirmation that Jesus was not crucified according to Islam. - Chris Schmidt (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Saying Jesus was crucified for "alleged sedition" is not quite an accurate claim, as the primary source of details of his crucifixion is the Bible, which states that the Roman authorities were pressured by Jews to execute him, because Jewish people thought Jesus claimed to be God, a blasphemy punishable by death. The source for it being "alleged sedition" is Bart Ehrman, who represents one point of view among many. He has been against Christianity for some time and could be considered a biased source. If he is cited, I think there needs to be additional citations, such as the Bible (Luke chapter 23 in particular), to let readers examine different viewpoints out there.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.36.34.178 (talk) 02:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

 * WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Categories
I broke this list down into 3 manageable bites, Jewish, Christian, and Other messiahs. Ignus 03:56, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Merging
There is a lot of duplication between this article and Messiah. I propose to merge. ≈ jossi ≈ 04:17, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * I would perfer not to merge... i've been working toward the goal of having "Messiah" be about the concept, and each of the claimaints listed on the messiah page being given their own page, which would be referenced from the list page. However, i'm pretty new at all of this.

Ignus 04:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The concept of Messiah is already discussed in that article. It makes no sense to have two lists that share 90% of their names in it. ≈ jossi ≈ 22:27, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Moved Baha'u'llah
I moved Baha'u'llah as he wasn't a Christian messiah claimant in any normal meaning of the term. He wasn't really a Mahdi claimant either, but it's closer--T. Anthony 04:58, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * uh, what else can I say: yes he was? Baha'u'llah claimed to fulfill the return of Christ and claims his religion will unite the world and reign for one thousand years, as prophesied in Revelation. He also claims to be the 5th Buddha, the Kalki Avatar, the Shah Bahram, the Islamic prophesy of Jesus, the culmination of a universal religious cycle begun by Adam, and the first of a new cycle which will last 500,000 years. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  07:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Then I guess we could double-dip and put him both places. Or we could contact the three Bahai Wikipedians I find:

 * 1) Brettz9-I asked him/her, but then found out s/he's deemed "missing."
 * 2) Cyprus2k1
 * 3) Exir Kamalabadi A Chinese Baha'i, also asked him/her but felt a bit guilty so hedged on it.--T. Anthony 10:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I think my difficulty listing him as Christian is he was born and raised Muslim, but was never at any point a Christian. So he is in least a Muslim who reportedly became a Messiah claimant. Anyway I have him in both places for now and contacted Brettz9 about it.--T. Anthony 07:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Which would also make him the only thoroughly non-Christian Christian messiah claimant. Hong Xiuquan was influenced by Protestant Liang Fa and took instructions from Issachar Jacox Roberts.--T. Anthony 14:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Maybe you're right, he could go in either/both categories. I think Islam has a connection to Christianity, just like Christianity has to Judaism, so it's hard to define things like this. In my opinion he represents more the return of Jesus than any other category, but I'm not interested in arguing cause it really doesn't matter, as long as he's on the page somewhere. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  18:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * oh, and I'm a Baha'i, I guess I didn't mention that. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk

 * I realized that later and felt a bit embarrassed. He's a bit of an odd case in that many, maybe even the majority, of the Bahai were/are from Christian countries and he did communicate with Christians. Yet to many Christians, like me, his own life story seems more tied in to the history of Iran and the Ottoman Empire. Hence more the story of a Muslim who began/discovered(whatever the right term is here) his own religion. Also before you told me this I thought Bahai viewed Jesus as basically the same as Zoroaster, Muhammed, or the Buddha.--T. Anthony 21:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay Brettz9 actually responded and agreed either or both is acceptable. I'd thought s/he was missing, but anyway if you want to revert it to the original that's fine too.--T. Anthony 09:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Sözde peygamberler

People needing more details
Can people who are more know more than me add more details for these people:

Jewish section:

Simon (c. 4 BCE) - The link is to the name 'Simon' and I could not tell who this refered to.--Zabdiel 11:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Cyrus the Great
This article is incomplete without mention of Cyrus the Great, whom the prophet Isaiah called the messiah.

The original meaning of the word "Messiah" is merely one who is appointed by God to perform some task. - E.g. a king. It was after Jesus that the word became exclusively linked to the concept of a savior. Isaiah did not call Cyrus the savior. He referred to him as a king under God. - Chris Schmidt (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Shifts, and standards for being on this page.
I'm doing some fairly major revamping of the List of Messiah claimants. I tried to get rid of suspect additions that got in there as pranks or simply as poorly researched; unfortunately a lot of the Jewish messiahs aren't well known, so it's not easy to find stuff. I also tried to keep the summaries quick and to the point, while still letting people know what basically happened.

Note that I don't think this page should be used for people who simply randomly said that they were Jesus once while drunk; there were a few entertainers on the list who may have been added for that reason, but their wiki-articles and Google didn't turn up much. You should have gotten at least some small following to be here, or be notable for other religious reasons.

Jeff3K, Bahá'u'lláh was previously listed twice in both the Christianity and Islam sections, and frankly should have been listed in the other section as well. Since he claimed to be the successor to all religions (not just Christianity and Islam), and to not pigeon-holing him in just Islam or Christianity, he seems best to be put in the "Other" section. It reduces repetition and is more accurate, in my opinion. SnowFire 02:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In the Baha'i tradition, Baha'u'llah clearly is the return of Jesus Christ. He has written, when writing to Pope Pius IX:
 * "O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained.".
 * This claim is understood by Baha'is to fulfill the return of Christ in both Christian and Islamic senses (Islam also states that Jesus will return after the coming of the Mahdi). In that Baha'i belief states that Baha'u'llah is also the expected "messiah" (for lack of a better word) of other religions does not take away from the first claim, because in Baha'i belief all those expected people are one and the same: the spiritual return of a Manifestation of God:
 * "These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!” For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath  Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures."  -- Jeff3000 02:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Nonono. I understand all that, and I'm not saying that because the Baha'i believe him to fulfill all religions that somehow means he isn't the return of Jesus as well.  I just think that the only reasonable categorization is either in both Christianity and Islam, or in the "Other/Combined" section. SnowFire 20:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think the combined section is appropriate because it does not make clear what claim they are making, by seperating it out. Someone who is looking for Chrisitan Messiah claimants will miss those that are in the combined section.  An other section may be appropriate. -- Jeff3000 20:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi
would Li Hongzhi, founder of Falun Gong, make this list?? Chensiyuan 12:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes. In most of his online lectures he posits himself as the source of an upcoming "rectification" of the universe. I'd probably use the word "saviour" over "messiah". Li does compare himself (favourably) to Jesus, however. --Fire Star 火星 19:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Overlapping categories
High-five to the editors of this article! It's a great model for how the various self-claimed deity categories ought to be organized. I'm hoping someone less busy than me will undertake the task of organzing the overlap. --TheEditrix2 15:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you have a non-Jewish/Christian messiah?
An interesting article, but it's threatening to grow exponentially. I wonder if it should be limited to the Judeo-Christian tradition, partly in order to make it manageable, and partly to avoid confusing those who claim, or are claimed, to be the 'anointed king' based in the Biblical tradition with those who are merely somewhat similar but based in a different tradition? For example, the 18th century Burmese king Bodawpaya viewed himself as the world-ruler promised at the end of time in Buddhist tradition, and consequently embarked on a series of wars against his neighbours. In the very broadest sense he could certainly be said to have viewed himself in terms similar to those in which the Jewish Messiah was sometimes viewed, but when you look at the details the similarities fall away. I'd even leave the Islamic tradition of the Mahdi out - like the Buddhist tradition, it's a view which centres on a millenarian figure, but it's not connected with the Jewish Messiah described in Kings. (Is there an article about millenarianism? perhaps that's the place for these figures to be discussed). PiCo 05:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Earlier this morning I edited this section, adding Michael Jackson, along with two sentences of explanation. As of 1 pm CST I see it is been deleted, and there is no trace of either change in the history. I have looked at many of the wikipedia guide pages. Can the history page attached to a topic be edited to remove items? Because of the effect of the American media coverage of Michael Jackson in the past 15 years or so, I feel this entry may need some 'protection.' Any advise from more experienced users? Thanks, Stephen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.147.130 (talk) 18:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Mohammad
I don't know the technicalities behind this... but if Jesus is included shouldn't Mohammad too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.50.233 (talk) 04:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but he didn't claim to be the mahdi (messias). He pointed out, that someone else would come. With jesus it is questioned, if he really did, but its surely not questioned, that noone else is believed to be the messias by so many people as him. There are even some muslims who accept him as the messias but claim to remain muslims. --92.227.151.84 (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Michael Jackson
Earlier this morning I edited the "Other/combination" section, adding Michael Jackson, along with three sentences of explanation. As of 1 pm CST I see it is been deleted, and there is no trace of either change in the history. I have looked at many of the wikipedia guide pages. Can the history page attached to a topic be edited to remove items? Because of the effect of the American/English media coverage of Michael Jackson in the past 15 years or so, I feel this entry may need some 'protection.' Any advice or comments from more experienced users? Thanks, Stephen. 24.78.147.130 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Other/combination messiah claimants This list features people who are said, either by themselves or their followers, to be some form of a messiah that do not easily fit into only Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Michael Joseph Jackson (1958-2009) whose followers see as ushering in the Age of Aquarius. One of the most famous humans on Earth, he consistently echoed the teachings of the historical Jesus of Nazareth through his own life and works. His simple, boisterously delivered message continues to be spread through worldwide modern multimedia, which fittingly were also employed in what followers see as his 'crucifixion' in the Western/English zeitgeist.

 * The problem is that there needs to be reliable sources backing this claim. No one doubts that there are a few people who would think that, but is it a major, notable movement?  If it is a major, notable, movement, then CNN should eventually publish a story along the lines of "Jackson: Was he the Messiah?"  Then we can link to the story as a reference.  (Note that this has to be a major, notable source too, not just a personal webpage.) SnowFire (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Other musical celebrities

 * There was a BBC television documentary (part of the Everyman series sometime around the mid 1990's) about a group of people who believe that a certain Elvis Aaron Presley was the second coming ! Seemingly much of this was based on the first reported sightings of Elvis following his death being three days subsequent ! Takes all sorts I guess. 213.40.114.98 (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

A muslim person

the islam has no mention of any messiah or mahi after prophet mohammed (Sala ALLAH alih wa salam) neither in the QURAAN nor in prophit Mohamed's speaches so please stick to your own religous and since you don't know anyhing about the islam then please don't try to make up anything or in other words, please read the QURAAN before claiming anything to be silamic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.194.186 (talk) 00:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Why ...?
Why is not Jesus listed in the Christian list? He claimed to be Jesus, for sure. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 13:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent revert
Stevertigo: Here's why I made this revert.
 * Hatnote redirect notices only matter when there's some better link to go to. Maybe false Messiah shouldn't link here - I certainly don't think it should - but if it does, there's no need to declare so loudly on top of the page unless there was a "For the album, see False Messiah (album) type disambiguation hatnote.
 * This is a page for all messiah claimants, whatever messiah means, *not* solely Jewish messiah claimants. The phrasing was bad anyway - "as foretold?"  That implies the that true prophecy is going on here and is in general too high-falutin'.  No need to say both Old Testament / Jewish scriptures as well.
 * "mobile" is used for phones. I'd be fine with taking out "wandering" altogether but calling Jesus "mobile" is bizarre, as immobile would imply he couldn't walk.  The idea is more that he wasn't a temple rabbi who stayed in one synagogue, but rather lived as a traveler among the people.
 * Schneerson is always added and removed and it's extraordinarily annoying. Wikipedia isn't about passing judgment about the veracity of the "Schneerson is the Messiah!" types, but it is undeniably true that they *existed* and in fact still do exist.  That's all that matters. SnowFire (talk) 05:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

SnowFire, I saw your comments and decided they were worth taking my time to answer:
 * Hatnotes: Points appreciated, but the term "false messiah" does redirect here, and that has semantic/polemic aspects. Its also POV, after all its only according to the Jewish view that "any" and all claimants are false. Hence its unusual. Hence its one of those rare cases in which a hatnote might be noteworthy, and even if the hatnote is just an intermediate step onto creating a "false messiah" disambiguation page, with proper caveat notation, then so be it. Note also that "False Messiah (album)" type disambiguation hatnotes are trivial hatnotes (according to the definition I wrote myself).
 * Conceptualization: "This is a page for all messiah claimants, whatever messiah means" - Its understandable that this would be a good compromise, but again, with the "false messiah" concept linking here, its all to easy to insert POV. Again, its clearly been a key POV issue that "false messiah" redirects here where Jesus, in particular, is listed, and where Jewish messianism is consistently noted as the original, hence key concept.
 * "Mobility:" I changed "wandering" to "mobile" because the former is clearly a pejorative to allege that Jesus was somehow not well-directed or divinely oriented. Note that "temple rabbis" didn't make good missionaries, and so it seems valid to note that Jesus had legs, hence "mobility" works to convey the meaning that "wandering" could not.
 * Im not clear how your fourth point relates to any changes I made. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 20:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Stevertigo, I was on vacation. Sorry about the slow response.
 * Entirely disagree on hatnote comment, that example isn't trivial at all and I see your change was reverted to the hatnote page. How else would someone find "Love (band)" without such a link on the page "Love"?  Where else would they look?  There's no shame in that kind of hatnote, though obviously once there are three or more options a disambig page gets created instead.  Anyway, now that false messiah doesn't redirect here, we definitely don't need such a hatnote.  However, I once again point out that despite what your current False Messiah page says - thanks for going ahead and creating it, though - the idea that all claimed messiahs are false in Judaism is plainly untrue.  That would imply that there IS no Messiah in Judaism.  What modern "mainstream" Judaism actually says is that none of the currently known claimed messiahs are real.  However, nothing prevents the Messiah from living right now in the context of Judaism, and there are Jewish branches that strongly have believed in a specific Messiah being for real.
 * I don't really understand what you're getting at, but "mobile" just plain reads wrong in English. Let's just remove the descriptor entirely if you think that "wandering" is a problem.
 * The fourth point is because you were removing Schneerson. SnowFire (talk) 05:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I coined the word "hatnote" precisely for the purpose of polite reference to "[Concept] (band)" type "disambiguations." Sometimes I just call these "spam."
 * I'm glad that you agree with creating the "false messiah" page as disambiguation, and appreciate your effort toward improving it. I will work with you on crafting language that is better - I understand that you think writing it is 'tricky' (I'm certain it isn't).
 * Your comment - "the idea that all claimed messiahs are false in Judaism is plainly untrue.. That would imply that there IS no Messiah in Judaism. What modern "mainstream" Judaism actually says is that none of the currently known claimed messiahs are real" - is self contradictory. What difference is there between saying '[Judaism regards] none of the known claimants as real' and '[Judaism regards] all of the known claimants as false?' Keep in mind that False messiah was nothing but a redirect to this page for years.
 * You wrote: "I don't really understand what you're getting at, but "mobile" just plain reads wrong in English. Let's just remove the descriptor entirely if you think that "wandering" is a problem." - I don't see how you can state clearly that 'something reads wrong' (in whatever language) and then also state that you don't actually understand what my point was.
 * OK. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Uh, the term hatnote has been around for some length of time. I guess you disagree with Wikipedia policy here, so this is a bit off-topic, but in defense of said policy...  do you see any way around such notes?  If the article is non-notable it should be deleted, of course, but if it is "notable", then it has to be accessible in some reasonable way.  Wikipedia has chosen the hatnote to do so, because it's easy to ignore if the default article was correct, and easy to find if this wasn't the article you were looking for.  It's not spam to be able to find the "Proto Indo-European language" by typing in "pie" into the browser and then clicking hatnote links to a disambig page.
 * Okay, fine. I *disagree* with your point that wandering is pejorative; I think in this context it's clear what the meaning is.  However, you don't, and if wandering is a problem, it's not key to quickly describing Jesus.  Regardless of the merits of "wandering," I was clear before and remain sure now - "mobile" has an *entirely* wrong connotation.
 * Do you have anything more constructive to add on the Judaism / false messiah note? I'm not *entirely* opposed to there being some kind of proviso here, but as written, it's false, for the reasons I've stated above.  I don't normally revert quite so immediately but that sentence just doesn't work. SnowFire (talk) 03:34, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

 * wikien-l 2005
 * The connotations of "mobile" are true, but they are not essential. What is essential is that Jesus had an extroverted outlook on life and this made him extremely unpopular.
 * I will work with you on the false messiah page, but you will have to be clear about why the unnecessary language. Keep in mind, disambiguation notes are usually quite terse. At least disambiguation is the proper way to handle it. Its a travesty that it ever was a simple redirect. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 22:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Criteria?
It's not clear to me what determines inclusion on this list. To take three examples I noticed: It's true that both Jesus and Icke claimed to be the son of God, but it does not follow (does it?) that Icke claims to be a messiah. And being a channel for someone that is called a messiah does not mean that you consider yourself a messiah. In the article for Koresh, it mentions that he claimed to be the last prophet. That's similar to a messiah, I suppose, but did he claim to be a messiah? (I'm not saying he didn't so claim — I don't know.) Younger brother of Jesus? In fairness, the article on Hong also says he described himself as "Heavenly King", which might mean messiah.
 * David Icke (b. 1952), of Great Britain, has described himself as "the son of God", and a "channel for the Christ spirit".
 * David Icke (b. 1952) I agree with you. Here is the truth about what David Icke really said, See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WhbP3JHqJw. His name should be removed from this list and he should be the one to remove it!174.1.37.231 (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * David Koresh (Vernon Wayne Howell) (1959–1993), leader of the Branch Davidians.
 * Hong Xiuquan of China (1812–1864), claimed to be the younger brother of Jesus.

I think that we need some clear criteria before including someone on this page. We need a citation for each entry that clearly states the person or his followers claimed he was a messiah. Currently, we have dozens of entries on this page and only 15 references!

Regarding Icke, by the way, I found the following:
 * The announcement coincided with a turbulent time in Icke’s private life. He has since retracted the contention, referring now to being the son of a godhead.

If this is accurate (and if we do indeed think he claimed to be a messiah), then the retraction should surely be mentioned, no? (I am not claiming that ukskeptics is a WP:RS, mind you — we would need a reliable source in order to mention the retraction.)

Thoughts? Phiwum (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Hasan Mezarcı
Hasan Mezarcı. Turksih politician. He was elected to the Turkish grand assembly.

Turkish messiah claims his lordship: http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-20193.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.145.2.11 (talk) 03:46, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Objections over the inclusion of Menachem Mendel Schneerson, moved from articlespace

 * Menachem Mendel Schneerson should not be included in this list. The author himself states: '...though he himself never said this and actually scoffed at such claims which were made during his lifetime.' He should be removed.. need consensus.Bzmeltzer (talk) 19:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've moved this from the article. As I've said before, this list includes people who did not claim to be the Messiah, but who were claimed to be by their followers.  Why do you not object to the inclusion of Vespasian, André Matsoua, or Haile Selassie I, when we have no direct record of them making any such claims themselves?  Again, this list includes people who did not claim to be the Messiah (or even denied being the Messiah), but who are or were claimed to be by a notable portion of their followers.  Ian.thomson (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Ian. I was surprised to not find the Rebbe included in the article, since there is so much online information about his followers and their belief in him as a messiah. And I wouldn't say he scoffed at the idea. There seems to be evidence that he was ok with people thinking it about him.70.81.160.101 (talk) 07:19, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, who is Rebbe? "There seems to be evidence that he was ok with people thinking it about him"; Please give us reliable sources. Sundayclose (talk) 14:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Did we ever get consensus about Schneerson's absence from this article? The Lede says the article is about "people who have been said to be a messiah, either by themselves or by their followers", so by that criteria it should not be necessary to document whether Schneerson himself made that claim. (I do wonder whether the word "claimant" in the title is appropriate, since this article includes people for whom the claim was documented only as having been made by followers, often posthumously.) Peter Chastain [¡hablá!]  04:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Ahn Sahng-hong
I edited about Ahn Sahng-hong since the ref cite web did not match with the information, and the website was a blog instead of an official website. There were no reliable sources mentioning about the New Covenant Passover Church of God. Thanks!--Nancyinthehouse (talk) 02:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Claimant's of Davidic Descent
It is my reading that in a biblical sense anyone eligible to claim to be Emmanuel has to be of David's line and to have taken part in a trial where not a bone was broken and where their enemies were below their feet. This happened with Jesus when he was crucified, and Muhammad on his visit to Tair, but because the Jews would not accept them as King neither were eligible to be Emmanuel, in a biblical sense. I would like other scholars with more knowledge than me to state on this article which of the claimant's were of Davidic descent and therefore eligible to be a Messiah by virtue of being a Son. Concurring with those above, I think the article needs to be renamed to include those people, like Muhammad, who did not claim to be Messiah but whom scholars, including myself, and religious groups, like Muslims, believe met the biblical criteria to be Messiah, even if in my case do not think he was biblically a King. Many Muslims say Muhammad made a mistake not calling himself Messiah, because he mistakenly thought Messiah and Desire of Nations (i.e. Emmanuel) were the same thing. --Jonathan Bishop (talk) 14:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

User Yahzitere Yahmarabhi
has repeatedly added people to the list who do not have a Wikipedia article or otherwise have not been documented to be notable. There are thousands of messiah claimants through the years, most of whom the vast majority of the world has never heard of, and we can't have every one of them in this list. Yahzitere Yahmarabhi, please write the Wikipedia articles for the claimants you wish to add. Sundayclose (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion to merged the article False messiah in to this article
Closed: page merged here. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I want to suggest to merge the article False messiah into this article for number of reasons: (1) Both articles deal with the same subject and it would be much simpler and better to have everything under one article, also so that it would make it easier for the reader. (2) It is possible to add to this article the references from the article "the false messiah" with regard to each religion as an introduction to this article chapters.--Setareh1990 (talk) 11:24, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

( Add copy of discussion relevant to merge proposal from Talk:False messiah. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2015 (UTC) ) , : Since there's been a merge tag on this article for awhile... and it was originally started as now-banned user Stevertigo's bizarre ramblings...  is there anything actually *worthwhile* to stick in this article? I don't think there's any useful general concept of false messiahs to be had that isn't a dictionary definition. In other words, Jewish Messiah claimants, Antichrist, and Masih ad-Dajjal are all worthy articles, but there isn't anything ACTUALLY connecting them. No article can sensibly be written on their similarities. For example, look at the likes of Thunder god, which just redirects to List of thunder gods so that people can see more about Thor, Zeus, etc. There isn't any article to be written on "thunder gods in general" that assume Thor & Zeus are somehow related. SnowFire (talk) 02:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it provides a useful cross-religious comparison of false messiahs, but I won't be heart broken if it is decided to merge. I just wanted to make sure it was discussed first. Editor2020, Talk 19:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

( End of copy )

I've closed this; it was proposed in June and has not been objected to: It was also discussed obliquely at the other talk page, and good reasons given for that page's demise. I would also note the other page lacks a neutral point of view as it stands, and have therefore merged whatever is useful and not already been said (ie not much!) and blanked the rest, and redirected the page to here. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

List of messiah claimants
Please explain your revert. See the corresponding articles if in doubt. Or do you need RS?Zezen (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I did explain in my edit summary, but if you need more detail here it is. One point to understand: I am not challenging whether these individuals have claimed to be the Messiah. The issue is notability. There are literally thousands of people throughout history who have claimed to be the Messiah. Wikipedia can't include all of them and must draw the line on notability. Read WP:WTAF. Many non-notable claimants have been added and removed based on notability. The established procedure on this article is to either write well sourced articles on these two people, or get consensus on the talk page to include them. Sundayclose (talk) 22:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * In addition to WP:WTAF for lists, WP:LISTPEOPLE is valid. Those without articles can have entries, but it has to meet a very high notability standard and have proper sourcing. An article lowers the restrictive high bar for inclusion on lists.-- ☾Loriendrew☽  ☏(ring-ring)  23:06, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * With regards to sourcing, the founder of the Khlysts has a citation (The Rasputin File by Edvard Radzinsky) but I don't know exactly what is says about him claiming to be the Messiah. There's a statement about the one of the founders of the Skoptsy in that article (Selivanov escaped from Siberia and proclaimed himself the Son of God incarnate in the person of the late Peter III of Russia), but it's not accompanied by a citation. clpo13(talk) 23:46, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I understand your concers. Here are but few of the many Google hits for "Mr Selivanov's messiah claims: 1 2 3 4 5...

Ditto for Filippovich, the other one: 1 and even in another "deities" wiki list here.

Are they RS enough ;)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zezen (talk • contribs)
 * No. I'm not sure you understand. We are not talking about sourcing the claims by these people that they are the messiah. We are talking about Wikipedia's standards for notability. Google hits is not the standard by which Wikipedia determines notability. As noted above, please read WP:WTAF and WP:LISTPEOPLE. Either write well-sourced articles for these two people, or get a consensus here to include them. Sundayclose (talk) 02:44, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

As I wrote, the consensus must have been reached for their inclusion in the sister article: This is a list of notable people who were considered deities by themselves or others... Danila Filippovich 1700 	He believed that he was God and started the Khlysts. (There are various transliterations of his name including Danila Filipov, Danila Filipich, and Daniil Filippovich.) Kondraty Selivanov proclaimed himself both as the late Peter III of Russia and Christ himself, and started the Skoptsy.

Will it count or do we need a RfC? Zezen (talk) 03:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Those people do not have their own articles. The names link to the cult/group to which they are associated.-- ☾Loriendrew☽  ☏(ring-ring)  04:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

So these guys should be removed there, too. Well, I give up, as these lists will be likely merged anyway. Zezen (talk) 08:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

False messiahs
As False messiah and Imposter messiah redirect here it is perfectly possible that people will end up here looking for the articles on Armilus, Antichrist and/or Masih ad-Dajjal so I have added those onto the introduction to the three relevant sections. I hope this is uncontroversial as I have done it as one rather bland sentence tacked onto each of the relevant section introductions, following the content of the introductions of the linked articles as best I can (hence no need for separate references). If anybody thinks that this was not the best way to have done it then I am happy for it to be changed but I do feel that these three things should be linked here somehow if we are to have those redirects. Otherwise, people could wind up here not finding the articles that they are actually looking for. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:42, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Daniel, I don't agree. The subject here is false messiah claimants; “False Messiah” and “Imposter Messiah” are different concepts to that of the AntiChrist, etc, the which we have clearly labelled articles on, so there's no particular reason why people should end up here looking for those articles instead. Do you have any evidence that that is happening?
 * Otherwise it looks like we are trying to establish an equivalence between them, something the sources don't support at all. A false messiah is someone claiming to be the Messiah himself; the anti-messiah is a figure who stands in opposition to the Messiah; an alternative in fact. He won't be claiming to be him.
 * So they are no more similar than a false prophet, who doesn't claim to be the Messiah either, and which also isn't mentioned here except as a "See also" item: So I've added AntiChrist as a see also; the other two are discussed and linked there, so that should be enough. Moonraker12 (talk) 23:18, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:14, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Jesus again (The bit I just tagged as dubious)
The current text says: "Jesus of Nazareth (c. 5 BCE – 30 CE), leader of a Jewish sect who was crucified by the Romans at the instigation of Jewish leaders". I am not aware of any historical basis for that last part and no reference is given. The Romans were a ruthless occupying power who crucified whoever they wanted to, often in large numbers. It is far less likely that they would crucify people just to appease a grudge alleged to be held by members of the local puppet regime than that they simply wanted him dead themselves. The only sources we have for the claim are gospels complied and edited by the Romans themselves, who are hardly neutral in this. I propose to simply snip out "at the instigation of Jewish leaders". I assume this is uncontroversial, or at least as uncontroversial as any mention of Jesus can be? Right?

Also, I think it incorrect to characterise Muslims as accepting him as the messiah. My understanding is that they accept him as a prophet, which is not the same thing at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 17:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Islam issue, it depends on the meaning attributed to the term "messiah". Islam clearly doesn't believe Jesus to be divine, so it's not the same as a Christian interpretation of "messiah". Read Jesus in Islam. Sundayclose (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the dubious claim with a more factual one. Bart Ehrman noted that in Ancient Christian writings the rhetoric became increasingly anti-Jewish with the passing of time. So, yes, putting the blame on the Jews and reducing the blame on Romans was a way of dealing with becoming a gentile-oriented religion across the Roman Empire. Most Jews considered that "Jesus=Messiah" claim was ridiculous, if not blasphemous, so the few Jews who converted to Christianity were feeling unwelcome in the mainstream Judaism of their time. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:47, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

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Jesus as Messiah
Messiah does not mean being God, it means the king of Israel. Muslims believe that Jesus is the king of Israel, who brought his people in a right relationship with God (at least those willing to listen to him). Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

"In Islam, Jesus was a Prophet and the Masîḥ (مسيح), the Messiah in Islam, sent to the Israelites, and that he will return to Earth at the end of times, along with the Mahdi, and defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal, the false Messiah."

- Messiah

Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:29, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Sedition
It is highly unlikely that the Romans would have prosecuted blasphemy against Yahweh. So, most likely, Jesus was executed for sedition, i.e. not against Judaism, but against the Roman Empire. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I.e. knowing what Roman soldiers from ancient Palestine felt about Jewish religion, they would have encouraged him to blaspheme against Yahweh. They would have been there, cheering him and applauding him. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

According to Bart Ehrman, when Judas Iscariot spilled the beans that Jesus called himself the Messiah, that was likely interpreted as sedition, since only the Roman authorities could appoint a king over Jews (Messiah=king of Jews, quite literally). tgeorgescu (talk) 07:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Appointing the king was not a merely theoretical issue, since many Jewish insurrectionists started real military actions by declaring that they are the Messiah. I mean: such claim wasn't false by default, since if he succeeded to defeat the Romans, then that insurrectionist really was the Messiah. Declaring themselves as the Messiah was a way to organize revolutionaries. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

"marginal Jewish apocalyptic cult"
It might amaze you, but there is no other serious historical theory for the origins of Christianity. (Jesus Seminar was fringe by design.) tgeorgescu (talk) 02:40, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

 * Regardless, this phrase comes off as unnecessarily antagonistic and gives the article an air of anti-Christian self superiority, the sort of things you see depressed millennials post on r/atheism. I know you frequently assert your merit as a biblical scholar, but nonetheless, no matter how much historical merit the description of "marginal Jewish apocalyptic cult" has in regards to Christianity, it comes off as biased against Christianity and towards Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. AcousticHITMAN45 (talk) 15:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

 * The historical Jesus never knew Christianity. All he knew was a "marginal Jewish apocalyptic cult".
 * Liberal theology does not consider it inimical to Christianity. One the contrary, their priests/pastors have to learn it in divinity schools. tgeorgescu (talk) 16:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@IP: see the above. You might have theological views which parrot Luke-Acts, with thousands of converts in Jerusalem during a single day, at the very beginnings of Christianity, but those views have hardly anything to do with mainstream history.

If you want to know more, see with Paula Fredriksen. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@IP writing that It might amaze you, but Christianity began as an apocalyptic cult is the common wisdom in any major US research university and in any non-fundamentalist or non-evangelical US divinity school. Jesus as an apocalypticist is the mainstream view in Bible scholarship. Above Prof. Fredriksen basically agrees with this. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:08, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Abd-ru-shin
I have commented out several WP:RS about him, thinking that one source should be enough. Disagree? Then uncomment them all, my personal take is that it is WP:OVERCITE. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Addition: David Eden Lane
Self-proclaimed prophet and "666 Man".172.58.43.70 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:48, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed text: * David Eden Lane (born 1938 - died 2007), white separatist known for the Fourteen Words, 88 Precepts and the neo-pagan religion of Wotanism, claimed a Bible code was in the King James Bible placed by "Aryan adepts" including Sir Francis Bacon and identified as the "666 Sun Man", an anti-Christian messianic figure that was "incarnated to warn and save the White Aryan race from extinction". 172.58.43.70 (talk)

 * What has that to do with the Messiah? Tgeorgescu (talk) 07:54, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

This is a list of notable people who have been said to be a messiah, either by themselves or by their followers.

A messiah is a saviour or liberator of a group of people. The page doesn't say "The Messiah" but "a messiah", a position indeed held by David Eden Lane who claimed a number of things addressed in the first source listed, not least his own OP sources: http://www.davidlane1488.com/pryamid3.html 172.58.43.70 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:02, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

David Eden Lane didn't claim that there even was a person named Jesus Christ and that the name was a numerical code reflecting the number 74 and that in the name pyramids for "JESUS" and "JESUS CHRIST" were the date 1938 which was his birthday with 1938 being the seventh layer of the pyramid and the top four digits. He claimed the prophecy was of himself. Here's an OP quote since some want to really go there considering it bring doughtful they even read the first NON-OP source to begin with. $potential WP:COPYVIO from a Nazi website removed Ian.thomson (talk) 08:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)$ 172.58.43.70 (talk)

 * Citing his own site looks really bad.
 * That said, the material in the article on him does establish him as someone who is claimed (if only by him) as being a messianic figure. José Luis de Jesús likewise claimed to be the Antichrist and is listed.
 * I notice that we're missing an article on claimed Antichrists, though that's more open to WP:BLP issues, I suppose. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The range that OP is on has some concerning history. If a different user had proposed the addition of Lane, I would not be opposed to its inclusion.  With OP's other behavior, though... I rather suspect that the best course of action would be to revert, wait until this has died down, and then for WP regulars to draft new phrasing about Lane.  Ian.thomson (talk) 08:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The following text continues to be removed by "Sundayclose" as "unsourced":
 * David Eden Lane (born 1938 - died 2007), white separatist known for the Fourteen Words, 88 Precepts and the neo-pagan religion of Wotanism, claimed a Bible code was in the King James Bible and identified as the "666 Sun Man", an anti-Christian messianic figure that would "embody the warring spirit of Mars, Thor, and King David" and be born on 2 November 1938 , claiming "The Man fights to save higher civilization. The Beast fights to destroy the bloodline of civilization's creators."

I believe there must be some form of conflict of interest.64.98.18.42 (talk)

Separating "Other" from "Combination" claims
I think this article would be improved by splitting the "Other" group from the "Other/Combination" group. The "Combination" claims are generally more substantial (and perhaps deserve to be placed at the top of the article?) whereas the "Other" claims typically seem to have less historical significance or a very limited following. Does anyone have any objections to this change? All of the material will remain unchanged--only the order of presentation would be adjusted.

______________________________________________________________ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jetstream423 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC) Jetstream423 (talk) 00:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hearing no objections to the recommendation given above for separating the "Other and Combination" section into two sections, with the first being "Combination" and the second being "Other", I have now made this edit. Jetstream423 (talk) 14:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Muslim Claimant Section is False
The personalities named in the Muslim Claimant section claimed to be 'mehdis' or guides. Mehdi is not Jesus nor Messiah. None of them except Murza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Messiah. Peddle your propaganda within your own ignormasuses and get your facts straight. They seek to balance messiah claims by adding names to the Muslim section. False messiahs is a Christian and Jewish problem primarily. Peddle your propagandoys farce within your own circle. 2601:601:8680:7990:E0A6:D6E3:AB35:2380 (talk) 07:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

 * A mere technicality: Mahdi is (supposed to be) greater than Jesus/Messiah. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

"Marginal apocalyptic cult"
This page is called "List of messiah claimants", not "List of messiah claimants ranked by how large their cult was." Take it elsewhere. The shorter and more neutral these blurbs are, the better - you're being pointlessly provocative.

I'm not sure why you're citing tons of scripture at me either. Of course Jesus was a "marginal" group in his life, nobody contests this, but why call this out for Jesus and not like 90% of the other entries here? Why use "marginal" rather than say "small"? It is obvious axe-grinding. It's also hilarious you're citing Ehrman who literally wrote a book on how Christianity spread across the Roman Empire ("The Triumph of Christianity") - the Jesus cult didn't stay marginal, obviously. So it's especially weird to call it out for Jesus but not for Shlomo Molcho or the like. SnowFire (talk) 03:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I quote the New Testament to show that Christianity (following Jesus' words) was indeed initially an apocalyptic sect. I am not quoting Ehrman, because I did not write the content of the article. It is common knowledge about the remaining contenders for the title of messiah that their cult is (was) marginal. Few people know that Christianity was initially a marginal apocalyptic sect. Wikipek (talk) 04:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's nice, but again, this is the article "List of messiah claimants". This is not the article Jesus or Historical Jesus or Christianity in the 1st century.  If you asked 100 different professors to summarize Jesus in one sentence on specifically whether he claimed to be messiah or not, the word "marginal" will show up in 0 of them.  (Meanwhile the word "apocalyptic" will show up in a decent number, I agree myself, but not all of them!  Maybe 30/100 summaries?)  I'm not here to argue you on the truth of the claim, only its relevance.  It's totally bizarre to call out Jesus's group as "marginal" (which it was, briefly) and not the other messiahs (which it also was, and often stayed marginal).  SnowFire (talk) 04:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the word "marginal" will show up in 0 of them. As it is now, can it be? Wikipek (talk) 04:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's better but still not as good as the old consensus wording. Again, there is absolutely no reason to call it out for Jesus but not for everyone else, and reads as POV-pushing.  The size of any entry's "cult" or sect is not that relevant.  We are looking for exactly one sentence on the specific topic of "did XYZ claim to be the messiah or not, and who is interested."  There are lots of interesting facts about Jesus that could be included but aren't relevant enough.  SnowFire (talk) 17:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:RNPOV: "In the case of beliefs and practices, Wikipedia content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed."
 * It is common knowledge that all other claimants (apart from Jesus) to the title of messiah did not go beyond the "marginal cult". There is no point in writing about it in front of everyone. In an article about a man, we do not write that he is (was) a man, unless the issue of gender is controversial (e.g. gender change). The current version of the article puts Jesus on a par with the others, in part: he started out just like the others, with the clarification that initially it was a "marginal Jewish apocalyptic cult", i.e. these people expected an imminent apocalypse. Nowadays, still few people know about it. Wikipek (talk) 18:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

 * We're talking in circles, but the fact that multiple random editors had their eyes perk up at that section is proof enough. We're going back to the stable, consensus version from older revisions which were just fine.  This is an encyclopedia article, not "place to hand out facts one Wikipedia editor thinks should be better-known".  It simply is wildly inappropriate for a one-sentence summary in this article, and to only mention it for Jesus.  If someone edited in "leader of a marginal cult" to 90% of the entries, it would look obviously ridiculous, and you haven't made the case why Jesus is a special exception.  If people want to learn about the historical Jesus, they can click on the historical Jesus article.  And as someone who, to repeat, agrees with you on apocalypticism, the scholars who push the apocalyptic view are the first ones who will tell you that the matter is contested.  Who do you think they're arguing with?  In an article totally unrelated to apocalypticism, we should opt for the safe, uncontroversial option of not saying anything.  It would be just as problematic to say here that Jesus was not an apocalypticist and use one of the voluminous citations that could be provided for that claim.  The matter is contested in scholarly debate.  If you truly want to push this, we may need a WP:3O because there is nothing else to say - there is no reason at all to phrase this so aggressively.  SnowFire (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, no serious scholar denies that Jesus was a cult leader. That is, objectively seen, what he was. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As for your last edit of the article – the cult is assumed to be "marginal." I wouldn't argue about that word. So you are fighting only for this one word characterizing the cult: "apocalyptic". And you absolutely want it not to be in the article. I do not understand why. There is no fundamental disagreement among scholars regarding the apocalypticism of the first Christians. The case is basically settled. Of course, there will always be individuals who will deny this, as with many other fundamental theses. If you need WP:3O, you have it:, . Wikipek (talk) 22:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of messiah claimants