text:
Talk:Fiona Apple

Regarding the most recent edits
One area which is not clear on this page is the order in which the early singles were released.

Criminal is listed as the third single released, but from the side bar on the Tidal page it looks like the fifth, so I think some of the dates are wrong. Also Shadowboxer and 'Never is a promise' were released together, NIAP was side B. Paraphrased (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

re: the change to Fiona's name, was wrongly quoted as Murphy Maggart, please dont add things to the page that are clearly wrong.

 * "Flirting with the idea of child pornography" is a very serious charge and debatable. It seems inescapably POV, and I don't believe restoring this text was appropriate.
 * Many artists are routinely parodied on Saturday Night Live or MadTV, or by comedians. Unless any given parody is exceptionally noteworthy or famous in its own right it's superfluous; otherwise, we could add parody skit transcripts to articles about almost anyone (entertainers and politicians alike).
 * In general, the article should be in an encyclopedic style, and not like a newspaper or magazine article, so there should be less of the extensive interview-like quotes (from Garofalo, Apple or Brion).

I made a few edits and hopefully it strikes the right balance between the last version and the next-to-last version. There was an edit war not so long ago, let's try to play nice everybody :-) -- Curps 01:07, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What is "noteworthy"? Personally,I believe that if anything interesting happens in the life of a wikipedia subject, it should go on the page. Like you, I believe that POV angles should be banished BUT if something happened, something happened. I don't see the harm in reporting on who on MADTV or SNL portrayed her. Some people would come to her wikipedia entry just to find out this information. I'm sick of people treating wikipedia like a traditional encyclopedia - it's not. The concept of the "encyclopedia" was devised in first century AD and is everchanging - wikipedia is revolutionizing the original concept. I belive that being potrayed on a national network like Fox or NBC is totally "noteworthy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.131.1 (talk) 10:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the MadTV/SNL portrayals are relevant just because it shows she was notable enough to be parodied at one point. 68.166.67.238 (talk) 10:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

New discussion
Joni Mitchell said "If Fiona Apple's songs were famous in the seventies, She would have a bigger success than she is now." ^ I removed the above as it's unsourced and doesnt belong in the Tidal section even if true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paraphrased (talk • contribs) 23:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"It is rumored to have left Apple in tears. Though no source can be cited, Apple allegedly vowed to intentionally make herself less pretty to counteract the pressure on young women to be beautiful." Can a RELIABLE SOURCE be cited? If not, this is gossip and should not be spread around on an "encyclopedia."

Concerning the above citation that is needed, I believe I recall some fact like that in either Rolling Stone or Spin magazine around the time of the release of When the Pawn.

"which intentionally simulated 1970's pornographic films" this is also a base-less claim. A shag carpet and a hottub do not make a porno.

"and flirted with the idea of child pornography" On what is this claim based???? -- 66.122.48.143 11:48, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"All along the article, Fiona Apple is referred as 'Apple' which is confusing, if her name is to be shortened I consider that 'Fiona' is a more proper term" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.137.47.189 (talk) 10:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC) Using the surname seems to be the standard followed by most wikipedia articles e.g. compare with the PJ Harvey page, using a surname is less likely to be confused with the name of any other people mentioned on the same page.

"Apple" is not her surname.

Older discussions
Removed: "It was also words that are rarely used in English, confusing many listeners. "

The wording of that doesn't really make any sense. Altered phrasing to reflect what was actually meant; that intellectual wording made the lyrics of the album difficult for listeners to decipher. EB

Confused; someone said they were removing the "similar artist" because it was not useful, which seems sort of contradictory. Of course it's useful: if someone is not familar with the work of Fiona Apple, but is with the other artists listed, then they have a point of reference for something similar. That's the entire purpose of a similar artist section. But it doesnt seem to have been removed anyhow? -EB-
 * I removed it because that's just an unqualified opinion without something backing it up. Anything objective is better than a list, even "Fiona Apple has stylistic similarities to female singer-songwriters from the late 1980s and early 1990s, such as Tracy Chapman and Tori Amos" at least notes that they are temporally and sexually similar.  A little more detail would be better still, even if it's just that their work is often piano-based (I don't know if any of that is true, as it's not really my scene, but it sounds right). Tuf-Kat
 * Well, I have to disagree in a huge way. It sees like you're just coming from a POV of someone who is unfamiliar with the common practice of listing similar musical artists for quick-glance clarification. It *IS* an objective list. Their music is similar; no, it doesn't specify a reason, but it's music. It's comparing apples to apples. It would be different if I was saying "Fiona Apple's music is similar to the architecture of X." I'm not. I'm comparing music to music, so the similarity should be obvious: it is MUSICALLY similar. But it's not that important I suppose. -EB-
 * You're right, it's not that important because people gloss over and mostly ignore lists of similar artists. The list can't be perceived as objective (and perception of veracity is much more important in a wiki than most other formats) because the list doesn't prove that there are any similarities -- how do I know, assuming I'd never heard of Apple or the others on the list, that you aren't some random whacko that also has a theory that Marilyn Manson and James Taylor are similar artists?  If it can be proved, it can be proved more effectively and more informatively in a prose format with a simple statement of why. Tuf-Kat
 * Funny, you didn't seem to feel the need to remove "sounds-like" references on the Tori Amos page, though it's disguised as "see also". *wink*Pacian 03:48, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What kind of music does she do? She's fairly obscure in the UK and I haven't heard a single note of anything by her (I assume she's a bit like Tori Amos and so forth, I've only come here because FreeFiona.com was on your American internet news). Perhaps the article could say something along the lines of 'Apple's debut album combined (genre) with (genre), her most prominent (musical attribute) being (attribute)' and so forth. -Ashley Pomeroy 20:06, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Ashley - it is safe to say that though Fiona Apple is often liked by fans of Tori Amos, the two are extremely dissimilar. Apple's success in the states was short lived but her first album was a huge smash and she became a household name here. She does folksy/instrumental pop and has a fondness for organs and percussion; however, her pianos are rarely forefronted in her music like Amos, who is a piano virtuoso. It's hard to say what kind of music she "does," as that could be dangerously POV, so it's best to call her a pop star. Her song "Criminal" was her biggest hit. Pacian 10:15, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Does anyone know about Fiona Apple's ethnicity? I came to this page hoping to put an end to my speculation on this topic, to no avail. Aesculapius75 11:01, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

 * An interesting question. She's certainly not out there telling everyone; it isn't anywhere in google, and I've looked. Here are a couple of family photos:  In the first, she's next to her very white dad; standing behind her is her half-brother, and next to him is her full sister, who also has exotic looks. I can't find a photo of her mother anywhere online, though. When you put the cheekbones, the cornrows, and her hanging out with hip-hoppers The Roots, she's certainly pretty comfortable with all of that stuff for a white chick !
 * Anyway, until we get an official statement, or a convincing photo of her mother, I'm not sure there's anything to put in the article. I can't even find an article wondering about it, that we could cite. --Dhartung | Talk 17:58, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I found a short bio of her sister Maude Maggart, who is a cabaret singer (her mentors are Andrea Marcovicci and Michael Feinstein). Fiona's always been described as "growing up on the Upper West Side"; Maude's bio, trying to buttress some jazz cred, says "near 125th Street"! Friends, that's Harlem. From Maude's bio and interviews we get the story of their grandmother, who "ran away from home" to join George White's Scandals, and then sang for a jazz band and married the saxophonist. Hmmm. (those are some surprising red links, actually) --Dhartung | Talk 05:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Gollee, I found a photo of grandma, the flapper era dancer. She's clearly white. This doesn't mean that mom Diane McAfee was completely white, though. What we have is one parent completely white, and one grandparent completely white.
 * And that led me to grandpa "Johnny McAfee", who was with the "Johnny Hamp and his Orchestra" ... an earlier group by Hamp, the Kentucky Serenaders, was a bunch of white southerners crooning in suits ... --Dhartung | Talk 08:06, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I was at high school (Southside, Rockville Centre, 1955-58) with Diane, Fiona's mom, who was the star of every show. I've seen pics on the net of Fionas mom (Diane McAfee) from the 1960s and she is completely white. Fiona lives in California and often has a suntan, if you look at early pics when she was based in NYC she couldnt get any more white.

?uestlove
I'm hesitant to include the following text, although I believe it to be essentially correct:
 * Apple has been reported to have cemented a friendship with Philadelphia-based hip hop artist ?uestlove of The Roots, after years of mutual admiration, and to be seeking collaboration opportunities. Unconfirmed reports from the okayplayer.com forums had Apple stating that the album is "not cancelled" and may be released as a "dual disc", one of which would be Brion's and the other produced by Mike Elizondo, with ?uestlove drumming on the latter. Kehew's work, according to this chat, would be for an album of yet newer material. No formal announcement confirming these claims has been released.

I think it's interesting enough, and has enough disclaiming, but it's a touchy rumor-filled space and I don't want to muddy things. The main problem is that the okayplayer.com thread was expired and unavailable, although outside references to it exist. If there are no objections, though, I'll go ahead and add it. --Dhartung | Talk 06:00, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above is mostly obsolete now, except for the bit about ?uestlove. It seems like there was some accuracy regarding the Elizondo production, but we still have that unconfirmed hint that Kehew is helping her with a fourth album. And there's no confirmation of ?uestlove working on the official EM as yet. Incidentally, I'm putting more detail over in the Extraordinary Machine article, rather than here. I trust other editors will follow my lead. --Dhartung | Talk 05:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Anorexic?
I see Apple is listed under Anorexia_nervosa. If this is known to be true, is it worth mentioning here? pfctdayelise 15:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think she may have been at one time in her life (probably before she started recording) and admitted it in an interview, but I'd need to look it up.--Fallout boy 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yea it is worth. Her Appearance and perception is subject of intrigue and concern. "Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation.""Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation." (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * She has been quoted as saying "I definitely had an eating disorder. What was really frustrating for me was that everyone thought I was anorexic, and I wasn't. I was really depressed and self-loathing. For me, it wasn't about being thin, it was about getting rid of the bait attached to my body. A lot of it came from the self-loathing that came from being raped at the point of developing my voluptuousness. I just thought that if you had a body and if you had anything on you that would be grabbed, it would be grabbed. So I did purposely get rid of it."

"rumors that she was anorexic (her father says doctors proclaimed her healthy) From http://www.timeout.com/newyork/articles/features/7808/big-apple-circus"

Australian Chart Positions
I'm not sure if it is needed in the article but Tidal peaked at #43 and Criminal peaked at #51 (see Chartifacts) and Extraordinary Machine Peak at #53 same website but see Australian Top 100 Albums. Lillygirl 11:20, 19 July 2006.

South Park
She is mentioned in South Park: "Well you ain't Fiona Apple, and if you ain't Fiona Apple I don't give a rat's ass!"

Dave Navarro
Back in the late 90s Dave Navarro had a rather interesting obsession with Apple. I remember hearing news reports about how he left a message in blood on her dressing room mirror before one of her shows. I dug up the articles about this here:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1424972/12081997/apple_fiona.jhtml http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1424971/19971210/story.jhtml

This may be worth mentioning in her "Personal" section. Marilyn Mansion also took her on one date (it was to a movie premiere, but I believe she left before the movie start). This is according to his autobiography "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell" (for those interested its in his tour diary section). PAT or JK 22:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. We just recently deleted a rumor that it was Trent Reznor who sent the bloody letter. --Dhartung | Talk 23:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Apple Corps?
Did Fiona Apple ever have any run-ins with The Beatles' record label like Apple Computer did? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 22:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that I've ever heard. Maybe she woudl have if she'd called herself just "Apple". (Nor, for that matter, have The Apples in Stereo or other bands with Apple in their names.) --Dhartung | Talk 07:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Linking to a discography resource
I contributed by adding a new link to the musician's page. Wikipedia puts enormous weight on relying on Discogs and MusicBrainz as resources but I find that the external link I was adding is as much, if not more, a useful resource to provide the user. I didn't know that this is considered 'spam' - if it is, I apologize but I think the links were reverted quickly without a second glance as to the merit of the resource. By the way, there's an external link currently which quality-wise is far more 'useless' and yet it remains there.Mimecuvalo (talk) 01:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Retirement
Is there a valid source confirming Apple's plans to retire and open an animal shelter? This is certainly news to me, I cannot find any articles mentioning this, and last I heard she was even working on a new album. Whataworld06 (talk) 14:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

This is mentioned in her iTunes interview, when the Extraordinary album was in limbo, she contemplated working for the Green Chimneys charity in New York, but never actually got around to it. Paraphrased (talk) 19:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Abuse
I heard claims from a number of youtube commentors abut her being raped and sexually abused by her father, Maggart. Can anyone substantiate these claims? - To be honest, I can't be bothered myself, but it would be detremental to this page if they were true. Stakingsin (talk) 14:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Fiona was raped in NY at the age of 12, but not by her father - he had moved to LA 6 years previously (I'm pretty sure she discussed the whole thing in one of the rolling stone interviews) Paraphrased (talk) 23:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Film contribution
I just noticed that Fiona Apple made some contribution to the film Magnolia, as in the credits of the film it mentions: "additional instruments and odd pieces of musical business by jon brion and fiona apple" Perhaps a worthy addition to the "other contributions" section of the main article. I'll add, but if anyone knows any detail of her "odd pieces of musical business", please contribute! --Kevger (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Text Removed
The text below was removed from the lead as it is unreferenced and does not summarize the article per WP:LEAD. If sources can be found this text can be added to an appropirate section of the article.
 * Her music is influenced by everything from early jazz, pop, to alt-rock. It is also characterized by Apple's candid personal lyrics and imaginative productions, often featuring idiosyncratic arrangements with instruments as varied as the French horn and optigan.-- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 18:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Controversial Text Needs Sources
This text:"After she joked to a friend at the age of 11 that she was going to kill her sister and herself, Apple's parents placed her in therapy." Needs sources. It is potentially libelous and at present has only one source; a 1997 interview with Howard Stern. How is this interview verifiable? Are their other sources that validate it? This text may need to be removed per WP:BLP.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * To protect WP and per WP:BLP I have removed the text and have placed it here on this page (see below) If verifiable sources are found we can add it back into the article.

 * After she joked to a friend at the age of 11 that she was going to kill her sister and herself, Apple's parents placed her in therapy.refHoward Stern show interview on 14 April 1997ref-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 15:37, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Feminism
There's the "Feminist musicians" tag in her Categories section but there's nothing in the article backing it up. I never saw she refer to herself as a feminist and neither is her supposed feminism "common knowledge". Definitely not a description that can be kept unmentioned/unsourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.57.5.39 (talk) 08:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I Agree, if there is no actually source, then it should be removed regardless of how huge her perception is. "Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation.""Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation." (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F ING
 * SO TRUE!
 * WHO ARE YOU! And ? Mark 2600:1004:A031:1FC:FCBF:5DA3:12D0:D210 (talk) 01:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Irish Heritage?
Fiona is an Irish name and, in addition, a lot of the family names mentioned in Apples early life section are Irish, but there is no direct mention of her ethnic heritage in the section. Does anyone have any sources on her heritage? This is usually included in most Wikipedia articles about individual people. 70.166.85.174 (talk) 20:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Contralto?
"Apple's vocal range is contralto."

Contralto starts out by saying that 'Contralto is meaningful only in reference to classical and operatic singing, as other genres lack a system of vocal categorization comparable to that generally accepted in the classical context.' So why have this statement, which is meaningless according to Contralto, in the article summary? 2.242.164.124 (talk) 21:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

early life -- raped, eating disorder?
Just because information is available about an artist, is it really necessary for that information to appear on wikipedia? If you were Fiona Apple, would you want the second paragraph about your life to say you were raped and developed an eating disorder? I think there's a line that this article crosses. I really think that paragraph should be removed. Surely this article, which uses Fiona's stage name, should focus on her professional career. After all, that is what makes her notable enough to appear as a wikipedia article at all. 2604:6000:F802:8C00:A582:1663:C68:71D (talk) 14:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * She talked about her rape in a Rolling Stone's interview, giving out the details. Its the only notable thing in her early life to be put in that section.   D r e a m Focus  15:39, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think neither of those are good arguments. Just because someone divulges something to the press does not make it notable. And if there is nothing to put in a section, then don't keep that section around. My own view is that it is notable because of the influence the childhood events have had on her later life, and in particular her career, as Apple herself describes in the Rolling stone interview. On the other hand, if Jimmy Wales can control his own Wikipedia entry, then I think Fiona Apple should be obliged if she were to request this information be deleted. 2.242.208.193 (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I think all her info. Should be there. You have made this page bland when it used to be very informative.
 * I do not Care What the Subject Thinks. It is Public information and should be educated. "Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation.""Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation." (talk) 14:50, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Fiona Apple
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Fiona Apple's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "allmusic": From Sara Bareilles:  From The Velvet Rope:  From Extraordinary Machine:  <li>From Little Broken Hearts: </li> <li>From The Blessed Unrest: </li> <li>From Porcelain Black: </li> <li>From Born to Die: </li> <li>From Sky Ferreira: </li> <li>From Brian Vibberts: </li> <li>From Goddess (Banks album): </li> <li>From Love Is Dead (Kerli album): </li> <li>From The Idler Wheel...: </li> <li>From The Haunted Man (album): </li> <li>From JMSN: </li> <li>From Lungs (album): </li> <li>From Miss Jackson: </li> <li>From Jazz: </li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:16, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Fiona Apple. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070228071417/http://www.riaa.com/gp/database/default.asp to http://www.riaa.com/gp/database/default.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:06, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Fiona Apple. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120716180856/http://www.nyrock.com/fiona.htm to http://www.nyrock.com/fiona.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 04:15, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Fiona Apple. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131213072758/http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/reverb/2008/09/matt_chamberlain_drummer_for_t.php/1 to http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/reverb/2008/09/matt_chamberlain_drummer_for_t.php/1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110927143738/http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/music/7104.php to http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/music/7104.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080410022102/http://www.livedaily.com/news/12126.html to http://www.livedaily.com/news/12126.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Alexandra Berg
Anyone able to find a source confirming relationship to Alexandra Berg? Yle7000 (talk) 00:26, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Open sourced references
Much of the info in this article is cited as coming from a particular podcast interview with Marc Maron.

It is listed in multiple various formats, but all leading to the same point of origination, thereby making a single interview appear as separate numerical citations.

For the sake of verifiability, is there a copy of this podcast available that is NOT sequestered behind a paywall?

Otherwise, it appears to me to be deliberately inserted as a subtle self-promoting tool for the podcast creator to increase paid subscribers via this page.

Alternatively, are there other sources available that contain the same content?

The spirit of Wikipedia is in open-source information. Demanding payment to simply check veracity of references seems contrary to that aim.

I hope this makes sense. Thank you. Genetikbliss (talk) 03:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Removal of "personal life" section?
I've noticed that the "personal life" section has disappeared in the past day or so from this page - is that up for discussion at all?

I too would like it if someone gets a good "personal life" section into this Wikipedia, but take into consideration work on this Wikipedia since then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fiona_Apple&oldid=947509612

and "... incorporated its contents into a liner biography of Apple's life ..." https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fiona_Apple&oldid=951463138

Detailaware (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Bob Dylan
Should Fiona Apple's piano playing on Bob Dylan's Rough and Rowdy Ways (2020) be added by someone who knows how?

2A00:23C5:B381:B401:7543:1646:8246:3CCC (talk) 22:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Heckler Incident
Fiona was all over the news when a heckler told her to "Eat Something" and said "What Happened to You, You Used to be So Beautiful"   She left the stage at a concert because  of this and a viral video of the incident was all over the place at the time. Have her paid publicists buried this story? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.226.75.156 (talk) 21:21, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
 * A few good links to wp:reliable sources might be a good place to start. Adakiko (talk) 00:01, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Other songs not mentioned?....
I saw nothing on here about her singing with the Watkins family hour (when I get low I get high) and I saw nothing on here about her singing with her sister Maude (middle of a riddle, paper moon). It just bothered me because those are some of my favorites!! Lol Any way they can be added on wikipedia if I didnt overlook them being on here?.... Missymotional14u (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fiona Apple


text:
Australia Party

The Australia Party was a minor political party established initially in 1966 as the Liberal Reform Group. As the Australia Party, it became influential, particularly in the landmark 1972 federal election when its preferences assisted the Australian Labor Party to victory—ending 23 years of Liberal/Country Coalition government.

The Australia Party grew out of the Liberal Reform Group, a group of members of the Liberal Party of Australia and Independents who opposed the party's policy of conscription and military involvement in the Vietnam War. The leading figure in this group was a businessman, Gordon Barton, who was assisted in the funding by Ken Thomas of TNT Transport and with the party organisation and branch establishment by Nick Gorshenin, Sydney shark meshing contractor and North Sydney Council alderman.

In 22 October 1966, when US President Lyndon B. Johnson visited Sydney, Gordon Barton and Ken Thomas sponsored a full-page advertisement in the Sydney Morning Herald lamenting the involvement of Australian troops in the Vietnam War. At that time no political party was opposed to Australian involvement in the war. Nick Gorshenin telephoned Gordon Barton that evening and they decided to form the Liberal Reform Group. They used their various contacts to establish the initial branches in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Newcastle and Gold Coast.

The "Australia Party" name was adopted in 1969, by which time it was also attracting disaffected Australian Labor Party (ALP) supporters. The party contested state and federal elections, achieving its best results in 1972. Though failing to win any seats, by directing its preferences to the ALP, it greatly assisted that party to win government for the first time since 1949. The Australia Party poll performance declined a little in 1974 and again in the 1975 federal election; however, by this stage it had replaced the Democratic Labor Party as the fourth party after Labor, Liberal and Country parties.

Subsequently, the party allied itself with the New Liberal Movement in the formation of the Australian Democrats for the 1977 federal election. However, a rump party continued on, fielding separate candidates in NSW, SA and Victoria in the 1977 election, in SA and Victoria in the 1980 election and the 1982 Flinders by-election. One candidate stood for the House of Representatives in Victoria in 1983. Relations between the rump party and the Australian Democrats were poor: in the 1977 election in South Australia, Australia Party preferences flowed to the Liberal Party rather than the Democrats, resulting in the Liberal Baden Teague defeating the Democrat Ian Gilfillan for the fifth and final Senate seat. The rump party merged into former Australian Democrat John Siddons' new Unite Australia Party (UAP) in December 1986, along with the Advance Australia Party. At the time The Canberra Times reported that the Australia Party had few remaining members, most of whom were in Victoria.

Significant figures in the Australia Party were Senator Reg Turnbull (elected as an independent, but Australia Party leader in 1969–1970), and journalist Alan Fitzgerald, then an elected member of the Australian Capital Territory Advisory Council. Two Australia Party members were elected to the newly formed Australian Capital Territory House of Assembly in 1975: Ivor Vivian and Maureen Worsley. Vivian joined the Australian Democrats, and was re-elected in 1979, but Worsley sat as an Independent from 1977 to the end of her term in 1979. Australia Party members who later entered federal parliament as Australian Democrats senators included Colin Mason (NSW), John Siddons (Vic), Sid Spindler (Vic) and Jean Jenkins (WA).

An important aspect of the Australia Party and later Australian Democrats is that they nullified and then overtook the minority influence of the Democratic Labor Party, which had wielded much influence in post-war federal and state politics. The Australia Party altered the power dynamics, and the Australia Democrats continued that role until they were succeeded by the Greens in the 2004 federal election.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Australia Party


text:
9/11 (2002 film)

9/11 is a 2002 documentary film about the September 11 attacks in New York City, in which two planes were flown into the buildings of the World Trade Center, resulting in their destruction and the deaths of nearly 3,000 people. The film is from the point of view of the New York City Fire Department. The film was directed by brothers Jules and Gédéon Naudet and FDNY firefighter James Hanlon and produced by Susan Zirinsky of CBS News.

Synopsis

Filmmakers James Hanlon and the Naudet brothers were given permission by the New York City Fire Department to film a documentary about a probationary firefighter. Their subject was Antonios (Tony) Benetatos, who was assigned to the Engine 7/Ladder 1/Battalion 1 Firehouse on Duane Street in Lower Manhattan. They intended to make a film about the "probie's" first experiences as a firefighter. On the morning of September 11, the firehouse, under the direction of Battalion Chief Joseph W. Pfeifer, was called out on a reported "odor of gas" at Church and Lispenard streets. Jules Naudet rode with Pfeifer to investigate, while Gédéon stayed behind at the firehouse to film the "probie."

As the Battalion 1 firefighters examined the supposed gas leak, American Airlines Flight 11 flew overhead. Turning his camera to the left to follow the plane, Jules Naudet taped one of only three known recordings of the first plane, American Airlines Flight 11, flying into the North Tower (Tower 1) of the World Trade Center during the September 11 attacks. The others were shot by Czech tourist Pavel Hlava and German Wolfgang Staehle, but both were filmed from farther away. Hlava’s video was also taken from a far worse angle than Naudet’s, and though the towers are clearly shown in Staehle's recording, it was only a sequence of still frames.

The firefighters under the direction of Chief Pfeifer were the first responders on the scene. Naudet was allowed to follow the chief during the attempted rescue operation. Naudet, Chief Pfeifer and several other FDNY chiefs were inside the lobby of Tower 1 when Tower 2 was hit by United Airlines Flight 175 and when Tower 2 eventually collapsed.

While the events at the World Trade Center unfolded, Gédéon Naudet filmed Benetatos, who was assigned to stay at the firehouse, where he was the only firefighter for some time. After the first tower collapse, Benetatos, together with retired former fire chief Larry Byrnes, left the firehouse for World Trade Center. Naudet lost contact with them and filmed the streets near World Trade Center, being held back by police officers from getting closer to the scene and to his missing brother. Later he again filmed at the firehouse, as more and more firefighters got back and tried to deal with the disaster. After some time of uncertainty, his brother arrived, and later also "probie" Benetatos, as the last one of the firefighter team. Benetatos had stayed at the scene after the second tower collapse, searching the debris for survivors until around 6 pm. Everyone of the team survived.

The film gives various firemen's accounts of the events of the remainder of the day: from the initial crash to the building's collapse, to the attempts to rescue the few survivors from the rubble, as well as the aftermath of the events and acknowledging those who were lost, including Chief Pfeifer's brother, Engine 33 Lieutenant Kevin Pfeifer.

Release and reception
CBS aired 9/11 commercial-free on March 10, 2002, to mark six months since the attacks. It was produced by Susan Zirinsky. The film was watched by 39.4 million viewers, bringing in a rating/share of 22.3/33, and was the highest-rated program that week. Hosted by actor Robert De Niro, CBS's broadcast was repeated on the first anniversary as well. The film aired in 103 countries in 2002 alone.

The film was noted for the subjects' use of profanity. Under regular circumstances on American broadcast media, this language would have been subject to censorship by the broadcaster or the Federal Communications Commission. At the time of the documentary's broadcast, the FCC took no action against the network for violating indecency rules, because it believed such action would have a negative connotation and would be interpreted as sanitizing history.

In addition, a 2006 ruling by a federal appeals court had successfully granted a "temporary halt" to the FCC's enforcement of its indecency rules. This allowed CBS and any affiliates to air the documentary without edits and without fear of facing stiff fines.

The DVD of the documentary was released in proximity, with De Niro's footage edited from it. CBS re-aired the film, hosted again by De Niro, on September 10, 2006, the night before the fifth anniversary of the attacks. This version contained updates from the principal subjects of the documentary, as of 2006.

On September 11, 2011, CBS broadcast 9/11: Ten Years Later, once again hosted by De Niro. The aftershow was updated by the Naudet brothers, Hanlon and CBS News producer Susan Zirinsky to include new interviews and footage on the lives of those who had been shown in the documentary ten years later. The program also focused on the construction of the new One World Trade Center, and on the health problems faced by many of the firemen who had served at Ground Zero, where they were exposed to burning contaminants. DeNiro was joined by the Naudet brothers and James Hanlon, a former New York fireman-turned-film director who was also present that day. As with all previous broadcasts of the film, CBS aired repeated viewer discretion warnings before and during the broadcast.

In 2016, CNN picked up the rights to show the film for the fifteenth anniversary of the attacks, executive produced and directed and updates by James Hanlon, this time hosted by Denis Leary.

Awards
9/11 was nominated for and won many awards, including an Emmy for Outstanding Non-Fiction Special (Informational) and a Peabody Award.

title: 9/11 (2002 film)


text:
CodeWeavers

CodeWeavers is a software company that focuses on Wine development and sells a proprietary version of Wine called CrossOver for running Windows applications on macOS, ChromeOS and Linux. The company was founded in 1996 as a consultancy, eventually moving entirely over to Wine development and support.

CodeWeavers is the principal corporate sponsor of the Wine project, hosts Wine's website, helps sponsor the Wine conference, employs many Wine developers, and is a major code contributor to Wine. CodeWeavers claims that two-thirds of all commits to Wine come from their developers. The company also employs Wine's primary maintainer, Alexandre Julliard, as its CTO. While CodeWeavers main commercial interest in Wine is its use in the Crossover product, they also encourage enhancements to Wine that sometimes compete with Crossover.

CodeWeavers also employs some developers of wine-mono, an open-source reimplementation of Microsoft .NET framework (4.x and earlier) which is intended as a replacement for the .NET Framework in Wine. Wine-mono is a branch of Mono which has been tailored to work with Wine.

Since 2016, CodeWeavers has been contracted to work with Valve on Proton, a compatibility layer for running Windows games through Steam on Linux.

CodeWeavers is a founding member of the Desktop Linux Consortium.

CodeWeavers' products and services include CrossOver, PortJump, and ExecMode.

In April 2023, CodeWeavers transitioned to an employee ownership trust. Jeremy White stepped down as CEO and company president James Ramey assumed the role.

CrossOver
For CrossOver, the company originally focused on making the Microsoft Office suite and other supported productivity software available on Linux. When Apple switched to Intel processors in 2006 CodeWeavers was able to create CrossOver Mac and bring Wine to Mac OS X. Other major supported applications include the financial software Quicken and the Steam game client.

Former products include CrossOver Plugin, CrossOver Server and CrossOver Games. Plugin was made to run browser plugins such as Flash and ActiveX in Linux. CrossOver Server was a product designed for multi-user environments. CrossOver Games was introduced in March 2008 and was intended to allow gaming-related patches from Wine to be incorporated into CrossOver much faster. In 2012 all versions have had the server, plugin, and games functionality merged into the primary CrossOver products.

PortJump
CodeWeavers provides porting services (known as PortJump) around Wine. Google has paid CodeWeavers to improve support for Adobe Photoshop and add functionality to Wine.

ExecMode
CodeWeavers provides consulting services (known as ExecMode). These services revolve around writing open-source code for enterprise level clients. The main difference from PortJump is that these services do not use Wine, but instead focus on other open-source technologies.

Great American Lame Duck Presidential Challenge
In July 2008, CodeWeavers launched the Great American Lame Duck Presidential Challenge to encourage President Bush to make the most of his remaining days in office by accomplishing a major economic or political goal by January 20, 2009.

The goals focused on President Bush making specific positive accomplishments in areas such as the economy, home values, the stock market, the war on terror and other key issues. Specifically, one goal called for President Bush to help bring down average gasoline prices in the Twin Cities to $2.79 a gallon.

On October 14, gas prices in Minneapolis and St. Paul fell to $2.79 a gallon, and CodeWeavers honored their pledge giving away their software for free on October 28, 2008. Traffic via Slashdot, Digg, and other sources overloaded and brought down the CodeWeavers website as people rushed to get the free-of-charge software. According to CodeWeavers, "You will be able to unlock your serial number that was emailed to you for an extended time, (an additional 48 hours), due to this downtime. We will simply stop giving out new serial numbers at 23:59 (Midnight) Central Standard Time."

Additionally, CodeWeavers updated their site to reflect the statement: "Please check back again for registration code information later today. We will be deploying a streamlined serial code generation process shortly." At the same time, they also added an "about Wine" paragraph.

The streamlined process came to pass, but customers were told to expect to wait "several days" to receive their serial number. In the interim, fully unlocked (full builds) of four different CodeWeavers packages became available for immediate download, but only on October 28, 2008.

title: CodeWeavers


text:
Pete Conrad

Charles "Pete" Conrad Jr. (June 2, 1930 – July 8, 1999) was an American NASA astronaut, aeronautical engineer, naval officer, aviator, and test pilot who commanded the Apollo 12 space mission, on which he became the third person to walk on the Moon. Conrad was selected for NASA's second astronaut class in 1962.

Despite having dyslexia, Conrad earned his Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical Engineering from Princeton University—being the first Ivy League astronaut—and joined the U.S. Navy. In 1954 he received his naval aviator wings, served as a fighter pilot and, after graduating from the U.S. Naval Test Pilot School (Class 20), as a project test pilot. In 1959 he was an astronaut candidate for Project Mercury.

Conrad set an eight-day space endurance record in 1965 along with his Command Pilot Gordon Cooper on his first spaceflight, Gemini 5. Later, Conrad commanded Gemini 11 in 1966, and Apollo 12 in 1969. After Apollo, he commanded Skylab 2, the first crewed Skylab mission, in 1973. On the mission, he and his crewmates repaired significant launch damage to the Skylab space station. For this, President Jimmy Carter awarded him the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in 1978.

After Conrad retired from NASA and the Navy in 1973, he became a vice president of American Television and Communications Company. He went on to work for McDonnell Douglas, as a vice president. During his tenure, he served as vice president of marketing, senior vice president of marketing, staff vice president of international business development, and vice president of project development. He died on July 8, 1999, from internal injuries sustained in a motorcycle accident, aged 69.

Early life and education
Pete Conrad was born on June 2, 1930, in Philadelphia, the third child and the first son of Charles Conrad Sr. (1892–1969) and Frances De Rappelage Conrad ( Vinson; 1899–1981), a well-to-do real estate and banking family.

The Great Depression wiped out the Conrad family's fortune, just as it had those of so many others. In 1942, the family lost their manor home in Philadelphia, and then moved into a small carriage house, paid for by Frances's brother, Egerton Vinson. Eventually, Charles Sr., broken down by financial failures, left his family.

Conrad was considered a bright, intelligent boy, but he continually struggled with his schoolwork. He had dyslexia, a condition little understood at the time. Conrad attended the Haverford School, a private academy in Haverford, Pennsylvania, that previous generations of Conrads had attended. Even after his family's financial downturn, his uncle Egerton supported his continued schooling at Haverford. However, Pete's dyslexia continued to frustrate his academic efforts. After he failed most of his 11th grade exams, Haverford expelled him from school.

Conrad's mother refused to believe that her son was unintelligent, and she set about finding him a suitable school. She found Darrow School in New Lebanon, New York. There, Conrad learned how to apply a systems approach to learning, and thus found a way to work around his dyslexia. Despite having to repeat the 11th grade, Conrad so excelled at Darrow that after his graduation in 1949, he not only was admitted to Princeton University, but he was also awarded a full Navy ROTC scholarship. While at Darrow, although he was only 5 ft and weighed 135 lb, Conrad started as the center on his football team and became the team captain. "He was a very tough boy, and we won our share of games," said the school's assistant headmaster.

Starting when he was 15 years old, Conrad worked during the summertime at the Paoli Airfield near Paoli, Pennsylvania, bartering lawn mowing, sweeping, and other odd jobs for airplane flights and occasional instructional time. He learned more about the mechanics and workings of aircraft and aircraft engines, and then he graduated to minor maintenance work. When he was 16, he drove almost 100 mi to help a flight instructor whose airplane had been forced to make an emergency landing. Conrad repaired the plane single-handedly. Thereafter, the instructor gave Conrad the flight lessons that he needed to earn his pilot's certificate even before he graduated from high school.

Conrad continued flying while he was in college, not only keeping his pilot's certificate, but also earning an instrument flight rating. He graduated with a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical engineering from Princeton in 1953, after completing a 200-page-long senior thesis titled "The Design of a Turbo-Jet Military Advanced Trainer" with Richard V. Warden, Richard W. Vannata, and Calvin H. Perrine. He was commissioned an Ensign in the U.S. Navy as a Naval ROTC graduate.

Aviation career in the U.S. Navy
Following his commission in 1953, Conrad was sent to Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida, for flight training. He was also trained at the Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas. He was designated a Naval Aviator in September 1954 and became a fighter pilot. He excelled in Navy flight school, and he served for several years as an aircraft carrier-based fighter pilot in the Navy. Conrad also served as a flight instructor in Navy flight schools along the Gulf of Mexico.

Next, Conrad applied for and was accepted by the United States Naval Test Pilot School at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Patuxent, Maryland. His classmates were future fellow astronauts Wally Schirra and Jim Lovell. He graduated in 1958, as part of Class 20, and was assigned as a Project Test Pilot. Conrad became a captain in the U.S. Navy on December 11, 1969.

During this period, Conrad was invited to take part in the selection process for the first group of astronauts for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) (the "Mercury Seven"). Conrad, like his fellow candidates, underwent several days of what they considered to be invasive, demeaning, and unnecessary medical and psychological testing at the Lovelace Clinic in New Mexico. Unlike his fellow candidates, Conrad rebelled against the regimen. During a Rorschach inkblot test, he told the psychiatrist that one blot card revealed a sexual encounter complete with lurid detail. When shown a blank card, he turned it around, pushed it back and replied, "It's upside down".

Then when he was asked to deliver a stool sample to the onsite lab, he placed it in a gift box and tied a red ribbon around it. Eventually, he decided that he had had enough. After dropping his full enema bag on the desk of the clinic's commanding officer, he walked out. His initial application to NASA was denied with the notation not suitable for long-duration flight.

After his NASA episode, Conrad returned to the Navy as a fighter pilot, serving in the Pacific Fleet's second operational F-4 Phantom II squadron, VF-96, on board USS Ranger (CV-61). Thereafter, when NASA announced its search for a second group of astronauts, Mercury veteran Alan Shepard, who knew Conrad from their time as naval aviators and test pilots, approached Conrad and persuaded him to reapply. This time, Conrad found the medical tests less invasive, and in June 1962 he was selected to join NASA.

He logged more than 6,500 hours of flying time, with more than 5,000 hours in jet aircraft.

Project Gemini
Conrad joined NASA as part of the second group of astronauts, known as the New Nine, on September 17, 1962. Regarded as one of the best pilots in the group, he was among the first of his group to be assigned a Gemini mission. As pilot of Gemini 5 he, along with his commander Gordon Cooper, set a new space endurance record of eight days. The duration of the Gemini 5 flight was actually 7 days 22 hours and 55 minutes, surpassing the then-current Russian record of five days. Eight days was the time required for the first crewed lunar landing missions. Conrad facetiously referred to the Gemini 5 capsule as a flying garbage can.

Conrad tested many spacecraft systems essential to the Apollo program. He was also one of the smallest of the astronauts, 5 ft tall, so he found the confinement of the Gemini capsule less onerous than his Commander Gordon Cooper did. He was then named commander of the Gemini 8 backup crew, and later commander of Gemini 11 with pilot Richard Gordon. Gemini 11 docked with an Agena target vehicle immediately after achieving orbit. Such a maneuver was an engineering and flight test similar to what the Apollo Command Module (CM) and Lunar Module (LM) would later be required to do. Also, the Gemini 11 flight holds the distinction of being the highest-apogee crewed Earth orbit ever, reaching an apogee of 1,369 km.

Apollo program
Conrad was assigned in December 1966 to command the backup crew for the first Earth orbital test flight of the complete Apollo spacecraft, including the Lunar Module (LM) into low Earth orbit. Delays in the LM's development pushed this mission to December 1968 as Apollo 8. But when one more delay occurred in readying the first LM for crewed flight, NASA approved and scheduled a lunar orbit mission without the LM as Apollo 8, pushing Conrad's backup mission to Apollo 9 in March 1969. Director of Flight Crew Operations Deke Slayton's practice was to assign a backup crew as the prime crew on the third following mission. If the swap of 8 and 9 had not occurred, Conrad might have commanded Apollo 11, the first mission to land on the Moon.

On November 14, 1969, Apollo 12 was launched with Conrad as commander, Dick Gordon as Command Module Pilot, and Alan Bean as Lunar Module Pilot. The launch was the most harrowing of the Apollo program, as a series of lightning strikes just after liftoff temporarily knocked out power and guidance in the Command Module. Five days later, after stepping down from the ladder of the Lunar Module onto a landing pad, Conrad joked about his own small stature by remarking: "Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but that's a long one for me." He later revealed that he said this in order to win a bet he had made with the Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci for $500 to prove that NASA did not script astronaut comments. Fallaci was convinced that Armstrong's "One small step for man" statement had been written for him and was not his own words.

Conrad's "long one" referred to the jump from the Lunar Module's ladder to a landing pad, whereas Armstrong's "small step" referred to the small step from the landing pad onto the Moon's surface. Conrad's first words on the lunar surface were: "Oooh, is that soft and queasy."

One of the photos that Conrad took during the mission with his own image visible on the helmet visor of Alan Bean was later listed on Popular Science's photo gallery of the best astronaut selfies.

Skylab
Conrad's final mission was as commander of Skylab 2, the first crew to board the Skylab space station. The station had been damaged on its uncrewed launch, when its micrometeoroid shield tore away, taking one of two main solar panels with it and jamming the other one so that it could not deploy. Conrad and his crew repaired the damage on two spacewalks. Conrad managed to pull free the stuck solar panel by sheer brute force, an action of which he was particularly proud. The astronauts also erected a "parasol" solar shield to protect the station from intense solar heating, a function which the lost micrometeoroid shield was supposed to perform. Without the shield, Skylab and its contents would have become unusable. President Jimmy Carter honored Conrad for this in 1978 by awarding him the Congressional Space Medal of Honor.

During his training for Skylab 2, Conrad had to bail out from NASA T-38 N957NA on May 10, 1972. He was returning to Houston from a visit to ILC Industries in Delaware. On approach to Ellington AFB he was advised that the weather had deteriorated below minimums so he diverted to Hobby. During the night, instrument flight rules (IFR) descent, he suffered a generator failure at 800 feet and broke off the approach. He elected to divert to an airfield with better weather. He ran out of fuel as he reached Bergstrom AFB and was forced to eject at 3,700 feet. He landed about 100 yards from the base operations building and his airplane impacted in an open field about two miles away.

Post-NASA career
Conrad retired from NASA and the Navy in 1973, and went to work for American Television and Communications Company. He started as the vice president of operations and chief operating officer. Conrad was in charge of the operation of existing systems and the national development of new cable television systems.

In 1976, Conrad accepted a position with McDonnell Douglas as a vice president and consultant. In 1978, he became vice president of marketing and was responsible for the commercial and military sales of Douglas Aircraft Company. After an engine fell off a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, causing it to crash with the loss of all passengers and crew in 1979, Conrad spearheaded McDonnell Douglas's ultimately unsuccessful efforts to allay the fears of the public and policymakers, and save the plane's reputation. In 1980, he was promoted to senior vice president of marketing. From 1982 to 1984, Conrad served as the senior vice president of marketing and product support. He was appointed staff vice president of international business development in 1984. During the 1990s he consulted for the Delta Clipper experimental single-stage-to-orbit launch vehicle. He became vice president of project development in 1993.

On February 14, 1996, Conrad was part of the crew on a record-breaking around-the-world flight in a Learjet owned by cable TV pioneer, Bill Daniels. The flight lasted 49 hours, 26 minutes and 8 seconds. Today the jet is on permanent static display at Denver International Airport's Terminal C.

A month before he died, Conrad appeared on ABC News Nightline and said, "I think the Space Shuttle is worth one billion dollars a launch. I think that it is worth two billion dollars for what it does. I think the Shuttle is worth it for the work it does." In the last interview he gave before his death, Conrad sat down for PBS's Nova series and discussed where he felt the future direction of space travel should go. He considered returning to the Moon "a waste of taxpayer money", but recommended missions to Mars and asteroids.

In 2006, NASA posthumously awarded him the Ambassador of Exploration Award for his work for the agency and science.

Personal life
While at Princeton, Conrad met Jane DuBose, a student at Bryn Mawr, whose family owned a 1600 acre ranch near Uvalde, Texas. Her father, Winn DuBose, was the first person to call Conrad "Pete" rather than "Peter", the name he had used since birth. Upon his graduation from Princeton and acceptance of his navy commission, Conrad and Jane were married on June 16, 1953. They had four sons.

Given the demands of his career in the Navy and NASA, Conrad and Jane spent considerable time apart, and Conrad saw less of his sons than he would have liked. In 1988, Conrad and Jane divorced, both later remarrying.

In 1989, Conrad's youngest son, Christopher, was diagnosed with a malignant lymphoma. He died in April 1990, at the age of 29.

Conrad met Nancy Crane, a Denver divorcee, through mutual friends. Conrad and Crane married in 1990.

Conrad was a Cub Scout. His recreational interests included golf, water skiing and auto racing, such as Formula Vee.

Death
Conrad died on July 8, 1999, from internal injuries sustained in a motorcycle accident. While traveling with his wife and friends from his Huntington Beach home to Monterey, California, his motorcycle crashed on a turn. Conrad later died in a hospital in Ojai. He was wearing a helmet at the time and was operating within the speed limit. He was buried with full honors at Arlington National Cemetery, with many Apollo-era astronauts in attendance and a performance of "Amazing Grace" by music legend Willie Nelson.

The Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, has a grove of trees that have been planted to honor the memory of the astronauts who have died. After Conrad's death, NASA planted a tree in his honor. During the dedication ceremony, his Apollo 12 crewmate Alan Bean used his speech to lighten the somber occasion by injecting a little levity, pretending to "channel" Conrad's instructions from the hereafter. Bean said Conrad wanted NASA to light his tree every Christmas season with colored lights instead of the white used for everyone else, in keeping with his motto "when you can't be good, be colorful". NASA has honored this request, and every Christmas since then, all of the trees in the grove have been lit with white lights—except Conrad's tree, which has been lit with red lights.

Awards and honors

 * Two Navy Distinguished Service Medals
 * Two Distinguished Flying Crosses
 * Congressional Space Medal of Honor (1978)
 * Two NASA Distinguished Service Medals
 * Two NASA Exceptional Service Medals
 * Yuri Gagarin Gold Space Medal (Fédération Aéronautique Internationale)
 * Harmon Trophy (1974)
 * Thompson Trophy (1974)

He is inducted into several Aviation and Astronaut Halls of Fame. In 1980 he was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame. He was one of ten Gemini astronauts inducted into the International Space Hall of Fame in 1982. Conrad and his fellow Gemini astronauts were inducted into the U.S. Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1993. Conrad was presented an Honorary Master of Arts degree from Princeton in 1966; an Honorary Doctor of Laws degree from Lincoln-Wesleyan University in 1970, and an Honorary Doctor of Science degree from Kings College, Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania in 1971.

The three Skylab astronaut crews were awarded the 1973 Robert J. Collier Trophy "For proving beyond question the value of man in future explorations of space and the production of data of benefit to all the people on Earth." Gerald Carr accepted the 1975 Dr. Robert H. Goddard Memorial Trophy from President Ford, awarded to the Skylab astronauts. They were awarded AIAA's 1974 Haley Astronautics Award.

Conrad was a fellow of the American Astronautical Society; New York Academy of Sciences; American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, and the Society of Experimental Test Pilots.

In popular media
Conrad was discussed at length in Tom Wolfe's 1979 book, The Right Stuff, about the pilots engaged in U.S. postwar research about rockets, although he was never mentioned in the 1983 film version. He played a news commentator in the 1975 made-for-TV movie Stowaway to the Moon, and himself in the 1991 television movie Plymouth, about a fictional lunar base, and in an American Express television commercial.

In the 1995 film Apollo 13, Conrad was played by David Andrews; in the 1998 HBO miniseries From the Earth to the Moon, by Peter Scolari and Paul McCrane; in the 2018 film First Man, by Ethan Embry, and in the 2019 alternate history web television series For All Mankind by Steven Pritchard.

title: Pete Conrad


text:
Telnarian Histories

The Telnarian Histories are a series of five space opera novels by American writer John Norman; the first three were published between 1991 and 1993. The setting of the novels is a galactic realm closely parallel to the later history of the Roman Empire and its wars with Germanic barbarians. The ruling family of the empire is human, but extraterrestrials exist, while individuals pursue destinies of freedom and slavery. The depiction of slavery in the books resembles that found in the Gor series, with female slaves dominated by male masters.

Books
The individual books in the series are:

 * The Chieftain (1991)
 * The Captain (1992)
 * The King (1993)
 * The Usurper (2015)
 * The Emperor (2019)

Reception
Many fans of Norman's Gor novel series didn't like the Telnarian books as much. One novel concept explored in the second and third books of the series is that of Dira, the goddess of love and beauty in the pantheon of the Telnarian Empire, is also the goddess of slave girls and is herself enslaved among the gods.

title: Telnarian Histories


text:
Fingerprince

Fingerprince is the third studio album by American art rock group the Residents, released in 1977. It was allegedly intended to be a three-sided record titled Tourniquet of Roses, but due to financial difficulties in fulfilling such a project, the record was instead cut down to a regular two-sided album.

The album is considered a transitional period for the Residents, between the early avant-garde stylings of Meet the Residents and The Third Reich 'n Roll and the minimalist song structures of Duck Stab and Commercial Album.

Music
Fingerprince's first side consists of short, minimalist songs featuring skeletal drum machines, emphasized horn and percussion sections, murky atmospherics (except for the upbeat "You Yesyesyes") and a bigger focus on vocals and lyrics.

The second side consists of one 17-minute track titled "Six Things to a Cycle", originally written as a ballet. It is an instrumental suite composed of six movements, with a strong focus on percussion and repetition of a single motif. Eventually the improvised percussion is joined by wordless vocals, keyboards, horns and violins.

A third side of music was planned for the album before the decision to release it as a standard single LP. This third side was eventually released in 1979 as an EP titled Babyfingers, which mirrors the standard LP – short songs on one side, a single long composition on the other side.

Release history
For the CD release of Fingerprince, all of the songs from Babyfingers, which were originally supposed to be part of the record, were included in their original running order.

The 1995 Euro Ralph CD reissue of Fingerprince kept the original track order from the original LP but included the complete Babyfingers as a bonus 3" CD with the album. All subsequent reissues of the album include all three sides, with slight alterations in the track order.

Reception
In the December 31, 1977, issue of Sounds magazine, Jon Savage notes that this album is more accessible than the band's first two albums, comparing it to Steely Dan and Frank Zappa "put through 10 years and a considerable warp." He also compares the Residents' integrity and outrage to the first punk "explosion." Andy Gill of New Musical Express compared the second side of the album to Harry Partch.

Personnel

 * The Residents – vocals, guitars, horns, synthesizers, keyboards, percussion
 * Snakefinger – vocals, guitars
 * Don Jackovich – percussion
 * Adrian Dekbar – violin
 * Tony Logan – percussion
 * Pamela Zeibak – vocals

title: Fingerprince


text:
Antihero

An antihero  (sometimes spelled as anti-hero) or anti-heroine is a main character in a narrative (in literature, film, TV, etc.) who may lack some conventional heroic qualities and attributes, such as idealism, courage, and morality. Although antiheroes may sometimes perform actions that most of the audience considers morally correct, their reasons for doing so may not align with the audience's morality.

Antihero is a literary term that can be understood as standing in opposition to the traditional hero, i.e., one with high social status, well liked by the general populace. Past the surface, scholars have additional requirements for the antihero. Some scholars refer to the "Racinian" antihero, who is defined by several factors. The first is that the antihero is doomed to fail before their adventure begins. The second constitutes the blame of that failure on everyone but themselves. Thirdly, they offer a critique of social morals and reality. To other scholars, an antihero is inherently a hero from a specific point of view, and a villain from another. This idea is further backed by the addition of character alignments, which are commonly displayed by role-playing games.

Typically, an antihero is the focal point of conflict in a story, whether as the protagonist or as the antagonistic force. This is due to the antihero's engagement in the conflict, typically of their own will, rather than a specific calling to serve the greater good. As such, the antihero focuses on their personal motives first and foremost, with everything else secondary.

History

An early antihero is Homer's Thersites. The concept has also been identified in classical Greek drama, Roman satire, and Renaissance literature such as Don Quixote and the picaresque rogue.

The term antihero was first used as early as 1714, emerging in works such as Rameau's Nephew in the 18th century, and is also used more broadly to cover Byronic heroes as well, created by the English poet Lord Byron.

Literary Romanticism in the 19th century helped popularize new forms of the antihero, such as the Gothic double. The antihero eventually became an established form of social criticism, a phenomenon often associated with the unnamed protagonist in Fyodor Dostoyevsky's Notes from Underground. The antihero emerged as a foil to the traditional hero archetype, a process that Northrop Frye called the fictional "center of gravity". This movement indicated a literary change in heroic ethos from feudal aristocrat to urban democrat, as was the shift from epic to ironic narratives.

Huckleberry Finn (1884) has been called "the first antihero in the American nursery". Charlotte Mullen of Somerville and Ross's The Real Charlotte (1894) has been described as an anti-heroine.

The antihero became prominent in early 20th century existentialist works such as Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis (1915), Jean-Paul Sartre's Nausea (1938), and Albert Camus's The Stranger (1942). The protagonist in these works is an indecisive central character who drifts through his life and is marked by boredom, angst, and alienation.

The antihero entered American literature in the 1950s and up to the mid-1960s as an alienated figure, unable to communicate. The American antihero of the 1950s and 1960s was typically more proactive than his French counterpart. The British version of the antihero emerged in the works of the "angry young men" of the 1950s. The collective protests of Sixties counterculture saw the solitary antihero gradually eclipsed from fictional prominence, though not without subsequent revivals in literary and cinematic form.

During the Golden Age of Television from the 2000s and into the present time, antiheroes such as Tony Soprano, Jack Bauer, Gregory House, Walter White, Don Draper, Marty Byrde, Nucky Thompson and Jax Teller became prominent in the most popular and critically acclaimed TV shows.

title: Antihero


text:
Talk:Book of Mormon controversies

Untitled
There has been much more discussion than is currently on this page. Early discussion has been archived at Talk:Book_of_Mormon_controversies/Archive_1

Could add mention of the ye/you/thou mix up - p.stoltz

I remember reading about Smith finding the words "Cumorah" and "Moroni" (the hill where he found the tablets, and the angel) on a map, referring to the Comoros Islands and the city of Moroni, and that was another piece of evidence that he just made it up. Maybe that should be added as well, if anyone can find it. (I won't add it, because I don't think I can be neutral about the subject...) Adam Bishop 01:50 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * It also could be a supporting point to the Book of Mormon as well. The island was 'discovered' by polynesian settlers about 600 A.D. (Mormon's believe that polynesians are descendants of Book of Mormon peoples) who could have carried the name with them.

 * However, it is not likely that Joseph Smith would have seen the name of the capital city Moroni on any map as it became the capital city in 1876, many years after Smith died. Due to the small size of the city prior to that time, it is unlikely that it would have appeared on any map available to Smith or most Americans.

 * The capital Moroni's name is French and Italian in orgin. Link to some history of the island:
 * http://www.africatravelling.net/comoros/moroni/moroni_history.htm
 * http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cn.html

 * Some Mormon apologists sites about the Island:
 * http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/bom/comoros.html
 *

 * -Visorstuff

Book of Mormon controversies or Book of Mormon origin controversies are better titles. "Regarding" is clumsy, anti-WP:STYLE, and just plain big for its transitive meaning (which can be eliminated altogether.) - 戴&#30505sv 01:13, Sep 5, 2003 (UTC)

 * I ain't moving it again! It's already been Authenticity of The Book of Mormon and Origin of The Book of Mormon in the last 2 days. It might as well be consistent with Controversies regarding Mormonism. Either change one or neither. I don't like Book of Mormon controversies as that might be another topic entirely. The title ought to reflect that this particular controversy is just over the origin, as opposed to general controversies about the book. I'm not quite sure what was wrong with the original Origin of The Book of Mormon title as this page could include the controversies without saying in the title that it was doing so. See also Naming_conventions_(precision). Angela 01:50, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What in the world have you folks been doing? Why in the world was this article moved from Authenticity of The Book of Mormon ESPECIALLY WITHOUT ANY DISCUSSION BEFOREHAND?! LOOK at the contents of the article folks; it does not merely cover "origins" and is not intended to cover merely origins. The article is intended to cover exactly what the original article was titled, not the overly-complicated less neutral title it has now...the title was well thought out. What reason is there for changing it now? B 22:35, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * I was the one that moved it but that was done to fix a cut and paste 'move' done by User:216.160.222.234 rather than because I thought it should be moved. The 2nd move was for the same reason, after Tom (aka Hawstom) cut/pasted it into its current title. Angela 22:52, 5 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the explanations, the forebearance, and the patience. Hang on while I get up to speed on all the style issues, etc.  You guys are great. Tom

 * 戴&#30505sv's suggestion above makes the most sense. Rather than moving this article back to its original page, Authenticity of The Book of Mormon--which is still far better than the current ill-named page--Book of Mormon controversies fits well for the move. B 18:16, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * I apologize for diving in and marring the page before becoming thoroughly trained in Wikiness. I don't know that I will be back anytime soon, and I really regret the mess I made.  Y'all go ahead and do what you have to do, and I will forebear making any other changes until I learn a bit more. Hawstom 21:55, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

OK. I like the current title, Book of Mormon controversies. It's NPOV and it's general. Thanks for the guidance. Hawstom 23:03, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

This quote on the page is incorrect...well different. The part about faith is correct.

[quote] Believers in the Book of Mormon, however, point to a statement made by Joseph Smith, to the effect that the only real doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Faith, Repentance, and Baptism, and that all other doctrines and practices are but appendages to those tenets. [/quote]

This is the actual quote

[quote] “The Fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”  Joseph Smith, History of the Church 3:30. [/quote]

That Jesus is the Christ is the main message of the Church, and the main message of the Book of Mormon.

This quote puzzles me:

[quote] They comment that no official statement on the humanity of God has been been made since it is unrelated to those 3 things; [/quote]

what exactly is meant by "the humanity of God"? waldemer

This is not really related to the Book of Mormon, or this article, but here's my question. If the quote written above is true, why do LDS believers spend a lot of effort trying to convert me from my current position (A Protestant Christian who believes all of the above) to their position? DJ Clayworth 22:03, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

We still need to deal with science, history and geography, and that isn't being done here at all. The Book of Mormon makes far more than theological claims; it also makes dozens of geographical, linguistic and historical claims. Each one has been shown to be unsupportable. How one chooses to deal with the gap between scientific consensus and the claims made by Mormons is up to the individual, but the gap exists. Writing in the independent Mormon scholarly journal Dialogue, Mesoamerican archaeologist Michael Coe of Yale University states clearly that: RK

 * "As far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing (that Hebrew immigrants build a civilization in ancient America as described in the Book of Mormon) to be true, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group."

This imporant issues cannot be glossed over, as it currently is. RK

 * Agreed. In doing so, let's include plenty of references so everything is open to scrutiny. It will be interesting to explore this area. Q

 * Agreed. For example, the Coe statement above should probably be worked into the beginning of the Archeology section.  I'll give it a shot. RK or anyone, do you have a year and volume for the Dialogue issue? B

I've followed RK's lead in retracting/rephrasing statements. There is more material that could be retracted including people besides RK and me. I'll continue to make retractions of my own material if appropriate and relevant to other's retractions. Haha..should we call this talk page a chalkboard instead? B

 * Feel the love... :)
 * From the article: Various alternate explanations for the origin of The Book of Mormon have been proposed  - do we know who proposed each of these? Anyone got references? I find this kind of historical detective work interesting, so I'd love to see the sources... -Martin
 * I wouldn't be surprised if the first two go all the way back to Joseph Smith's time. The third and fourth I think are really references to the same book written by a preacher named Ethan Smith (no relation) who lived in the same town as Joseph. This book speculates about the Native Americans having Israeli origins, among other things. I don't know who originally proposed this, but I believe B. H. Roberts is said to have wondered about it in his personal writings. Q

 * These alternate explanations were introduced very early and have been presented many times by very many critics. Handling attribution to the originator of long-standing critical or alternate views (or variations thereof) in general may be difficult to track down in some cases.  I believe the contributor of the various explanations is referring to Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Found and that the various explanations are variations of the cases arising from that controversy.  Dr. Philastus Hurlburt was the first to make this case around 1833 not long after he had been excommunicated from the LDS church.  For an LDS view of this controversy, see Michael Ash's summary on this subject.  .  Most experienced critics do not advocate this position any more, but it is probably good to include it at the very least to show it as a prominent case in the history of LDS criticism B
 * So there we have it, Ethan Smith or Solomon Spaulding controversy. Good example of how non-attribution creates ambiguity.  The contributor will have to let us know what he had in mind. B
 * Here is a link to an article printed in the LDS Church's flagship monthly magazine, The Ensign which talks about both of these theories together. . You'll have to scroll down to find the article.  Since the article is coming from a Church publication, notice how the top of the page-link states: "Questions of general gospel interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy." B

I looked at some of the other pages from religious groups. The ones I looked at do not have imbedded criticisms on the main page, with the exception of Scientology. My feeling is that religions are based on faith, and as such are subject to scientific criticism - eg the noah story's world wide flood. I would like to see such science vs religion debates moved off the main page of religious groups. When I go to the mormon page, I want to know what they believe, the tenants of their religion. I don't need to know that Mormon is not based on science. That is the nature of faith. Karl

 * There are no embedded criticisms on Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that I can see. No mention of science, certainly.
 * I think this article, being about the book of mormon, is an appropriate place to put questions and discussion on the authenticity of the book itself. In particular, the physical characteristics of the supposed golden plates, the use of language, changes in differing revisions - that's all totally relevant. On the other hand, the content under the heading "Archeological", does seem to me to be misplaced, because it's more a criticism of LDS than of the book itself. -Martin

 * It does seem odd, but the Archeological section is properly placed with matters concerning the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Archeological issues arise out of specific reference to the BoM than out of any issue general to LDS.  There are statements outside the BoM in regards to archeological issues, but these statements typical coincide with references in the BoM.  In considering the very unlikely possibility that the LDS discarded the BoM, no obvious archeological issue remains which is pertinent to the LDS in general.  B

- The question still is why do Mormon's get this treatment and not some other religions. Using the heading Archeological would be to hide the criticism. Why not use a link like "Criticism" or "Scientific Questions".

 * This is a big problem of misperception here! Both Judaism and Christianity ARE given exactly the same treatment! Just read the entries! Both of these religions depend on the belief that God dictated his words to Moses and later prophets. But read the entries on what Wikipedia has to say on these issues, especially the article on the Documentary hypothesis. Traditional Christians and Orthodox Jews view this as heresy, as slander, as hatespeech against God. I personally read a book-review by Orthodox Rabbi Avi Shafran, who called higher biblical criticism an anti-Semitic blood libel! So make no mistake - Many Jews and Christians are angry and outraged about the even-handed way that Wikipedia discusses such issues of history for all faiths. RK

 * I have to agree with RK here. Most religions on wikipedia have their share of criticism in related articles; most of that winds being fairly even-handed, when the dust finally settles. If any religion has actually received less criticism, it's far more likely to be because of simple neglect or oversight, than because of any grand conspiracy. In all cases, writers try to follow the standard procedures: document sources, maintain a neutral tone and neutral point of view, correctly attribute opinions and beliefs to those who hold them, etc. etc. It's not always easy, but can be a helpful writing exercise in its own right.  Wesley 17:17 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

 * first a correction: I was comparing book of mormon to things like Scientology, as opposed to bible, and koran, and for that matter new testement. The article on the Documentary hypothesis is exactly my point - it is not merged, but is a separate article. Trash mormonism all you like - what I know about it, I do not like. On the other hand, if I want to find out more about the religion I don't want to have to sift through a scientific rebuttle of a religion. If I decide to delve still deeper, then I will want dome of the scientific rebuttle information. There is no scientific rebuttle of the bible on the article the bible page, maybe I missed it? Karl

 * I suggest that a main page be created for topics like "Authenticity of The Book of Mormon" and then in the main page in the Book of Mormon a similar subheading with a sentence or two and a link to the "Authenticity" page. If a separate page is not created for "Authenticity" the main Book of Mormon page will become unwieldy with point-counterpoints.  In my experience, critics of the LDS Church have not let anything go unnoticed (as with a lot of other religions) and have challenged just about anything that could be challenged.  The points and counter-points go on and on.  One of my hopes is that this wikipedia project can get a handle on the great amount of work that has been invested by the various sides of LDS criticisms.  I suggest a page named something like "Criticism (LDS)".  The heading could start with a proviso similar to the one now currently stated on the BoM page under the "Authenticity" section.  Then the Criticism page could have points-counterpoints for general criticisms and also include brief statements and links to criticisms on specific topics like "Authenticity of The Book of Mormon", "Legitimacy of the LDS Priesthood", "Danites in the LDS Church", "Authenticity of the Book of Abraham", etc. Any comments or suggestions on this proposal? Would this be going beyond the scope of the wiki project? cataloguing and summarizing the criticisms and the responses thereto? Should an attempt be made to catalogue all/most/only prominent criticisms?  What criteria to use if only certain criticisms are to be giving attention? B

 * Having seen the page now that that's done, I'm not convinced. I think it's allowing the "official" origin of the book to take precedence over the view from outside the church. What if you moved the stuff about other possible origins back into the entry, so you had:

 * Intro
 * The Story
 * The Origin
 * Delivered by angels, etc
 * It never existed, Joseph made it up
 * It was a modified copy of an unpublished historical novel
 * It was created by aliens from the planet Zog
 * For further discussion of which origin story is most likely, see Authenticity of The Book of Mormon

 * That would achieve your aim of moving the complexities of the authenticty arguments out of this entry, but without allowing the Church version to proceed "unchallenged". What do you think? -Martin

 * Personally, I like the Zog theory :) Q
 * If you've never been there in the off season, I strongly recommend it...no crowds, more oxygen, less inter-galactic battles, etc. :o) B

 * Martin, yea, I'd like to see it consistent with how the Bible page is done, and looking at its page now I think that is how its page will shape up too.  Rather than move, I copied since that material seems to be useful for both pages. B

The newest contribution from "P Stoltzfus" apparently at the University of Quebec is problematic. Why the random addition of "allegedly" Why not include it in other paragraphs? How does "P" intend to apply this rule in content summaries of other sacred texts? B

 * The article noted that a particular book was written in 385AD. This is seriously questioned. I don't mean it as a cut against mormonism. I will try to stop contributing to wikipedia however accept for articles i may have already written. I don't want to feel personally attacked, wikipedia is not worth being targeted over. - p stoltz. (how did you know I'm at the U of Q?) perhaps you didn't mean it as an attack against me personally in which case I apologize.

There is no personal attack here. I'm questioning your problematic addition, not because it's a cut against mormonism but because it is random and inconsistent. Few will argue that the subject is not debatable, seriously or otherwise. That's not the point. And you haven't answered the primary question. Why the randomness when the "allegedly" could be included to many more paragraphs in this section, in this article, in other articles, etc.? I used http://visualroute.visualware.com/ to identify where you were. B

zqzqzqz

I cleaned up the headings to make the page easier to read. Hawstom 23:38, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * So far I've been unimpressed with your changes. I cut for instance this uninformative banality:

"Apologists defend Smith's claim. Critics claim that the book had some other origin.

Arguments between apologists and critics generally are embodied in two broad categories. In one category, apologists defend Smith's claim while critics rebut it. In the other category, the apologists and critics switch roles, with critics defending alternative explanations while apologists rebut them."

Surely, this goes without saying...unless this encyclopedia is intended for grade-schoolers. B 07:36, Dec 7, 2003 (UTC)

 * It's up to you. I think sometimes in technical writing it is okay to state the obvious for organizational purposes.

"Source" plates?! What is that supposed to be? B 07:57, Dec 7, 2003 (UTC)

 * How about my latest attempt, Source text? The point is that a major area of contention is over those "Gold Plates".  1) Smith made up a bad story about them and 2) Nobody ever saw them.  It is important to reduce all this high-sounding talk down to the core contentions and organize it along those lines.

This line is also cut for been uninformative:

"Critics argue that the failure of the Church to treat the Book of Mormon seriously casts doubt on Smith's claim."

"Seriously"?! That is too vague. State something concrete and it might be useful to leave in there. B 08:45, Dec 7, 2003 (UTC)

 * Just trying to make sense of the arguments. I am beginning to think this argument is NOT about the Book of Mormon, but about the LDS Church.  It isn't NPOV to equate Mormonism, BofM, and LDS.  There are other Mormons, etc.  The BofM stands apart from LDS as an 1830 production (previous to any church) of Smith.  Is there a place we could move or a better way we can outline this whole bit about textual changes and inconsistency with LDS doctrine?  I would like to see LDS simply removed from this page as inapplicable to other Mormon branches.

There are some serious problems here that forming a consistent hierarchy will help to reveal and resolve. The textual additions I propose(d) are/were merely to attempt to make some sense of the page content and proposed hierarchy (outline). I will keep trying. We DO need to hierarchy. And I could sure use some help crafting it. :-D Hawstom 18:50, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Somebody added the Book of Abraham to the Archealogy section. With apologies, I deleted it. But this addition reveals a problem with the Archealogy section. Namely, what do the Kinderhook plates, Bat Creek stones, etc have to do with BofM archealogy? If I delete the Book of Abraham, are the other also questionable. I suppose not, since the Book of Abraham is about the old world, but the others are about the New World.

Whew. Sometimes it is hard to understand how some of these "arguments" fit in. Hawstom 03:59, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Splitting up this article
Rather than having an article named Book of Mormon controversies, wouldn't it be better to have more topical articles that discuss each aspect of the book that is controversial? For example, why don't we slice up this article and make articles such as the following: Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, Book of Mormon authorship, Book of Mormon linguistics, Book of Mormon alterations, etc.? Then, on the main Book of Mormon page, there could be links to these articles such as the following: "According to the Title Page, the main author of the Book of Mormon was named Mormon, and that the book was translated by Joseph Smith; however, critics offer the following other explanations: .  See Book of Mormon Authorship."? COGDEN 08:24, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * Seconded. B 16:11, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

 * That isn't a bad idea. Angela suggested possibly renaming the page to get rid of the word controversies, and I was thinking a name something along the lines of BofM Studies or BofM Origin might be good.  But I may like your idea even better.  I do think they all need to start with BofM.  Hawstom 15:50, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * There is another important consideration. Book of Mormon Studies have suffered from a lack of respectful dialogue between camps.  Having a Controversies page in the Wikipedia is good for the maturation of Book of Mormon Studies.  But it may not be good for Wikipedia.  Maybe the whole body of extraneous dialogue needs to be scrapped, and the main Book of Mormon page needs to contain just key facts about the BofM, both commendable and embarrassing.  One of the principles of NPOV is, "Let the story be told as it is."  Validity and absurdity are in the eye of the beholder.  A strict policy can be stated in HTML comment at the top of the page: "Wikipedia is not a forum for arguments about the Book of Mormon.  Please stick to facts and statements that are conceded by those both apologetic of and critical of the Book of Mormon." Hawstom 15:50, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is really a tough issue.
 * The Mormonism Controversy is an issue unto itself. Has resulted in deaths on both sides.  Deserves an article with some name.
 * We should have only one main Mormonism Controversy article. All other Mormonism articles should not be Controversy oriented.
 * Disputes about the Book of Mormon could be organized on the Mormonism Controversy article, with pointers to various more general articles on American Archealogy, Book of Mormon Chiasmus, Solomon Spaulding, Book of Mormon Animals, etc.

I don't think any article should have the word controversy in the title, unless the article is about the fact of controversy, like what causes the controversy, what effects the controversy has on the dialog, etc. (and in that case, it should be named "Controversy and X"). The problem lies in the word "controversy": "Controversies regarding X" could mean anything, and it encourages people to conduct edit wars. I don't think you would never see a "Controversies regarding X" page in the Encyclopedia Brittanica, because it is assumed that any good, factual article about any subject will mention the major controversies involved, and not collage them together in a Frankenstein page. COGDEN 05:32, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As a pilot effort, I've created the article Archaeology and The Book of Mormon, and moved archeology materials from Book of Mormon controversies to that page. Please comment. COGDEN 21:58, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Golden Plates Page
Beginning of a Gold Plates article. Hawstom 07:11, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Redirect this article to Book of Mormon?
I've moved all the material in this article either back to Book of Mormon or to new articles, including Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, Linguistics and the Book of Mormon, and Golden Plates. This article is now a skeleton. Should we delete the material and make it a redirect to Book of Mormon?COGDEN 23:20, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree. The article looks a bit strange in it's current format. Angela. 00:50, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree as well, however, we need to figure out how to properly preserve this talk page & archives as it has many decisions and issues that were worked out here first and the reasoning why. Perhap adding it as an archived page to Book of Mormon? -Visorstuff 01:47, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * It might be best moved to Talk:Book of Mormon/Controversies, although it could just stay here but with links from other relevant talk pages. See also How to archive a talk page.Angela. 23:27, Jan 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Done. This page is now defunct COGDEN 16:16, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Book of Mormon controversies


text:
Time Slave

Time Slave is a 1975 hybrid of historical fiction and science fiction by John Norman. In this book, Norman presents his personal theories of human evolution, exemplified by the case of a modern 20th century woman sent back in time 20,000 years or more; he mourns the loss of human evolutionary fitness and distortion of "natural" social relations which, in his view, occurred when farming spread and farmers squeezed hunter/gatherers to the ecological margins. Time Slave features Norman's social philosophy of male-dominance (as also in his Gor series), and expresses an unexplained connection between female sexual subordination and the speeding up of the development of space travel.

title: Time Slave