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Wikipedia:WikiProject Music

Some Wikipedians have formed a project to better organize information in articles related to music. This page and its subpages contain their suggestions; it is hoped that this project will help to focus the efforts of other Wikipedians. If you would like to help, please inquire on the talk page or on those of the project subpages. (See links below).

WikiProject Music aims to encourage the collaborative addition of accurate information to a wide variety of musical topics.

Project listing
The parent of this WikiProject is Arts.

Related WikiProjects

 * Literature, Theatre, Visual arts
 * Directory of Wikiprojects that deal with music

Task forces

 * Music genres task force
 * Regional and national music taskforce

Sub-projects

 * WikiProject Music terminology (semi-active)
 * WikiProject Music theory
 * WikiProject Musical Instruments
 * WikiProject Percussion
 * WikiProject Musicians
 * WikiProject Guitarists
 * WikiProject Bands (currently deleted)
 * WikiProject The Beatles
 * WikiProject Björk
 * WikiProject HIM
 * WikiProject The KLF
 * WikiProject Led Zeppelin
 * WikiProject Pink Floyd
 * WikiProject The Rolling Stones (semi-active)
 * WikiProject Green Day (inactive)
 * WikiProject Albums
 * WikiProject Songs
 * WikiProject Theme songs (defunct)
 * WikiProject Tunings, Temperaments, and Scales (defunct)
 * WikiProject New Zealand/Music task force
 * WikiProject Women in music

Music genre projects

 * WikiProject Alternative music
 * WikiProject Australian music
 * WikiProject Canadian music
 * WikiProject Christian music
 * WikiProject Classical music
 * WikiProject Computer music
 * WikiProject Country Music
 * WikiProject Electronic music
 * WikiProject Hip Hop
 * WikiProject Indian music
 * WikiProject Jazz
 * WikiProject Latin music
 * WikiProject Metal
 * WikiProject New Wave music
 * WikiProject Opera
 * WikiProject Pop music
 * WikiProject Punk music
 * WikiProject R&B and Soul Music
 * WikiProject Rave
 * WikiProject Reggae
 * WikiProject Rock music
 * WikiProject Roots music

Participants
See WikiProject Music/Participants for the full list. Click here to add yourself!

Improve the bird's eye view
The entire subject and Wikipedia's coverage of it is intended to be summarized in the Outline of music. It in turn is part of Wikipedia's outline system which is one of Wikipedia's main contents systems.

Please look it over and fill-in missing topics. If Wikipedia has an article or article section about those topics, please add links to them.

While analyzing the outline, please answer the following questions (and fix the outline as needed):

 * 1) What's missing?
 * 2) Is the structure of the outline (sections and indents) representative of the subject?
 * 3) Does the outline help understand the relationships between the topics presented in the best way possible?

The overall purpose of the outline is to help readers comprehend the subject by showing what belongs to it, and within the subject what belongs to what.

The outline is a taxonomy of the subject, and also serves as a table of contents and navigation aid to browse Wikipedia's articles (and article sections) about the subject.

It is also a useful tool for the WikiProject to analyze, plan, develop, and revise music-related material. It is a hub from which to organize related topics.

It was built as a "reverse outline", a structural model of an existing work, which in addition to being a summary of the work, can reveal the gaps and other weaknesses for revision purposes.

Please help improve it.

It's our bird's eye view.

Thank you.

Noticeboard
Discussion occurs on the WikiProject Music talk page.

The noticeboard for music-related news and requests became inactive in 2017.

Guidelines
Several guidelines have been adopted which are specific to music-related articles. According to WP:GUIDES, "Guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Various music projects have developed "guides" and "advice" which are relevant to their areas of interest; however, these may not have been vetted by the community and should be treated accordingly.

The following have been identified as WP guidelines (main page followed by shortcut(s)):
 * Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music (MOS:MUSIC)
 * MOS:MUSICCAPS
 * MOS:LYRICS
 * MOS:THEMUSIC
 * WP:MUSORG
 * MOS:POPMUSIC

 * WP:NOTLYRICS
 * Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) (WP:NCM)
 * WP:MUSICSERIES
 * WP:BANDNAME
 * WP:NCMDAB
 * WP:SINGERDAB
 * WP:ALBUMDAB
 * WP:SONGDAB

 * Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Record charts (MOS:CHARTS)
 * Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music samples (WP:SAMPLE)
 * Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Stringed instrument tunings (MOS:TUNINGS)
 * Wikipedia:Notability (music) (WP:NM)
 * WP:MUSICBIO
 * WP:COMPOSER
 * WP:NALBUM
 * WP:FUTUREALBUM
 * WP:NSONG
 * WP:NTOUR
 * WP:SUBNOT

Assessments
Assessments are done by individual music projects, such as Albums, Opera, Composers etc., not by this Music Project, which is an umbrella project.

Categories
The project categories are listed on the Categories sub page.

Subpages

 * List of

Music-related WikiProjects template

 * Add this to the bottom of music-related WikiProjects: WikiProject Music/Related WikiProjects. This template should be kept up-to-date with WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture/Music

Barnstar
The Music Barnstar can be awarded to any Wikipedian that exhibits exceptional effort and dedication to music-related articles. Add it to their Talk page with message ~.

Portals
The Music portal template  may be placed in the See also or another appropriate section of a music article, however there are other, more specific pages available. See Category:Music portals for a list of music portals.

Stubs
To add an article to the music stubs category, use music-stub. See Category:Music stubs for more stubs and info.

Userbox
There is a userbox for members, which adds them to Category:WikiProject Music participants. To add the userbox to your user page, use User WP Music. It will produce this:

title: Wikipedia:WikiProject Music


text:
Wisley

Wisley is a village and civil parish in Surrey, England between Cobham and Woking, in the Borough of Guildford. It is the home of the Royal Horticultural Society's Wisley Garden. The River Wey runs through the village and Ockham and Wisley Commons form a large proportion of the parish on a high acid heathland, which is a rare soil type providing for its own types of habitat. It has a standard weather monitoring station, which has recorded some national record high temperatures.

Etymology
Variant spellings of Wiselei (11th century) and Wyseleye (13th century) feature in the feet of fines and similar rolls at Westminster and Lambeth Palaces. The phoneme 'wiz' is typically a person's name and lea is another English word meaning meadow (not from Old French but from Old English, however with a similar Old French equivalent).

Geography
Wisley gives its name to the nearby road intersection of the A3 Portsmouth Road (which runs across much land of the village) and the London Orbital M25 motorway, Junction 10. The village is equidistant between Cobham and Woking, in the Borough of Guildford. It is the home of the Royal Horticultural Society's Wisley Garden. The River Wey forms part of the western part of the village, but is partly on both banks within Pyrford. Ockham and Wisley Commons form a large proportion of the parish on a high acid heathland, which is a rare soil type providing for its own types of habitat.

2006 heatwave
On 19 July 2006, the hottest temperature ever recorded in the month of July in the United Kingdom was recorded at Wisley, 36.5 °C (97.7 °F). This broke the record of 36.0 °C recorded in Epsom, Surrey on 22 July 1911.

However, on 1 July 2015, this record was beaten, with 36.7C at Heathrow Airport. The hottest day ever recorded in Wisley was July 18, 2022 when the temperature reached 39.3 °C.

Domesday Book
Wisley appears in the Domesday Book of 1086 as Wiselei. It was held by Osuuold (Oswold) [of Wotton], whose main seat was Wotton. Its domesday assets were: 1$1/2$ hides; one church, one mill worth 10 shillings, three ploughs, one fishery worth 5d, 6 acre of meadow, woodland worth six hogs. It rendered £3 in the feudal system to its overlords per year.

There is a maintained medieval track running from Byfleet through Wisley to St Nicholas' Church, Pyrford.

Manorial descent
Oswold, lord of Wotton held the manor of Wisley when Domesday Book was compiled. The manor was subinfeudated by the later lords of Wotton. In the early 1200s, the manor passed from Roger de Somerey to Robert de Briwes, who leased it in 1243 to Walter le Basle and his wife Denise during Walter's life. On Robert's death in 1275, it passed to his son John, who settled it on his daughter Beatrice shortly before she married Robert Burnel. Around the end of the 1200s, Robert Fitz Payne came into possession of some of John's lands in Somerset, and apparently acquired title to Wisley as well, prevailing in a lawsuit initiated by Robert Burnel in 1328.

Fitz Payne died without male heirs; at the death of his wife Ela, in 1355, it passed to her cousin Robert, the second son of Richard de Grey, 2nd Baron Grey of Codnor. Robert assumed the Fitz Payne surname and died in 1392, when the manor passed to his daughter Isabel, wife of Richard Poynings, 3rd Baron Poynings. She died the following year, and it passed to her son and heir Robert Poynings, 4th Baron Poynings. In 1434, he settled the manor on his granddaughter Eleanor on the occasion of her marriage to Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland. Eleanor died in 1483, and her successor, her son Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland, was killed in 1489. Towards the end of his life, a dispute arose among Northumberland and the other heirs of Sir Guy de Bryan (Robert Fitz Payne's father-in-law). One of these was Thomas Butler, 7th Earl of Ormond, who apparently received Wisley in the settlement between heirs, as he granted it to John Covert, who died in 1503.

Upon John's death without heirs male of the body, Wisley passed to his cousin Richard Covert, who in 1594 joined with his son Anthony in conveying the manor to the courtier Sir John Wolley and Elizabeth his wife, daughter of Sir William More. Wolley's son Francis inherited the manor in 1596, but died without legitimate issue in 1609. Wisley passed to Elizabeth's nephew Sir Arthur Mainwaring. Perhaps to pay for a lawsuit over guardianship of his niece, Mainwaring sold the manor to Sir Robert Parkhurst in 1641. Sir Robert died in 1651, and Wisley passed to his son Robert, who died in 1674. In 1677, his son, yet another Robert, sold Wisley and other Surrey estates bought from Mainwaring, including Pyrford, to Denzil Onslow.

Onslow died in 1721; upon the death of his widow Jane, in 1729, Wisley passed to his great-nephew Thomas Onslow, 2nd Baron Onslow. The manor descended with the peerage to George Onslow, 1st Earl of Onslow, who exchanged it with Peter King, 6th Baron King for Papworth in Send. It thereafter descended with that peerage (later the Earls of Lovelace).

19th and 20th centuries
Slade Farm and a cottage were transferred from Wisley to Ockham 25 March 1883. The children of Wisley Common began to attend Byfleet School. Charles Buxton, brewer and MP, had Foxwarren Park, his solitary, stark Neo-Gothic mansion home placed upon the far woodlands of the heath, in land well within the orbital motorway of today and associated with Weybridge.

In 1911 it was recorded in the Victoria County History "there is no village of Wisley; merely some scattered farms and cottages".

The former Wisley Airfield, a misnomer as it is within the bounds of Ockham, next to the junction of the M25/A3, had a 6,691 ft runway. Built towards the end of World War II as a flight test airfield for the Vickers aircraft factory at nearby Brooklands, it opened in 1944 and after extended use for the development of military aircraft during the Cold War, it finally closed in 1972.

Although the runway, taxiways and large areas of hardstanding survive, most of the buildings—including the unique control tower converted from an old timber-framed cottage—were demolished around 1980. The Ockham Beacon at the east end serves as a navigation aid for aircraft flying over the area.

Wisley Church
Wisley parish church was built by the Normans in the mid 12th century and the church has no later additions. Even the dedication of the church is lost.

Three consecration crosses still remain. There are remains of medieval frescos on the south wall of the nave and behind the pulpit. The chancel arch, of chalkstone, and both the north and south chancel windows are original. The roof with a queen post, and bellcote, with one bell, are later. A porch was added in the Stuart period. The Victorian restoration of 1872 reconstructed the western half in a neo-Norman style, including the two west windows, and added the vestry. Originally there was a Norman font, but that was replaced by the present Victorian one; the pulpit is also Victorian.

On the south wall is the Royal Arms of George III. The East window and north and south windows of the nave are late Gothic style from 1627. The stained-glass is by Powell and Sons, given in 1909 in memory of Mr and Mrs Buxton; Charles Buxton was a local M.P. Beside the pulpit is a scrolled iron Elizabethan hour-glass holder. One pew is dated 1630, but the remainder are Victorian, and the panel behind the organ is from 1915.

Amenities
Wisley Golf Club is in the village.

Demography and housing
The average level of accommodation in the region composed of detached houses was 28%, the average that was apartments was 22.6%.

The proportion of households in the civil parish who owned their home outright compares to the regional average of 35.1%. The proportion who owned their home with a loan compares to the regional average of 32.5%. The remaining % is made up of rented dwellings (plus a negligible % of households living rent-free).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wisley


text:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music

Adding a new page on WikiProject Music
Hello, can anybody help me add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jolyon_Petch to this group?

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainamera22 (talk • contribs) 01:26, July 17, 2021 (UTC)

Personnel listing on albums
Hi; since this WikiProject is probably of relevance, I'm assuming someone here would know the answer to the question I had at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music. Neo Purgatorio (talk) 18:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Radiosoul
Hello everyone! I just wanted to let you know that I've created a draft for Alfie Templeman's next album, which is set to be released in a few weeks; given the artist's profile, I think we'll get enough media coverage on it to meet WP:GNG comfortably. Whether you want to make corrections or add some more information, any kind of help is appreciated! Oltrepier (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if its really "ready" to be published if you've got 4 blank sections and almost no content written for it outside of a few sentence intro. I'd wait until you can write a bit more about it first before publishing. Drafts like this are likely to just get redirected. Sergecross73   msg me  17:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I know, don't worry: I purposefully added those blank section templates to remind myself of working on the draft once I retrieve enough material! : ) Oltrepier (talk) 19:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Sorry, sometimes editors post similar questions that are basically "Look at my work, is it ready"? I see now that your comment wasn't quite worded like that. Sorry for kind of answering a question that you weren't really asking. The sourcing at the bottom does look good, so I do think it'll be ready once more content has been written. Sergecross73   msg me  19:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No worries at all! And truth be told: before last time, I didn't even know that album articles could be posted to the mainspace way earlier than their release date... Oltrepier (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there's no question that this will pass WP:NALBUM once it's released – it will certainly chart in the UK, and his last album had plenty of noteworthy reviews. Richard3120 (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello everyone! I'm planning to complete my draft as soon as possible, now that the album is out. Like I wrote, any help would be appreciated! Oltrepier (talk) 15:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Done! You can now find the full article here. Oltrepier (talk) 14:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * P.S. I've boldly decided to make a slight change to the title of a similarly-titled album by Jonathan Byrd and Diana Jones, in order to avoid confusion (I think Alfie's album is going to be way more popular, anyway). Oltrepier (talk) 14:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

RSN discussion about Ones To Watch
There is a discussion on RSN about the reliability of Ones To Watch, any input would be helpful (see WP:RSN). -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 10:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Can someone with a Billboard subscription please verify something for me?
Hello! I'm currently writing an article about R.eal1ze, an album released on January 9, 2017 by Ravi. I'm trying to verify the accuracy of the charting positions of the album. Ravi's main article says that it reached number 8 on the US World Albums chart (Billboard), but I can't verify the source because I don't have a Billboard subscription. I'm extra concerned about the accuracy of the information because the citation on Ravi's main page actually is an archived link from BEFORE the album was released, which means it would be impossible for R.eal1ze to have been on that page because it hadn't been released yet. Can someone with a Billboard subscription please verify or correct this information for me? The link to the chart is https://www.billboard.com/charts/world-albums/. Thanks! Gottagotospace (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it debuted at number 8 on the week of January 28, 2017. As for the archive link being prior to the release date, that's because the link itself leads to the main page of the chart, not a specific week. So IA bot probably chose a random archive date.  AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 19:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! I appreciate your help! Gottagotospace (talk) 19:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Infections of a Different Kind (Step 1) categorization
The appropriate recording categorization (EP or album) for Infections of a Different Kind (Step 1) is currently being discussed at the article talk page. Please join the discussion to help form a consensus. Sock  ( tock talk)  20:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

List of one-hit wonders in the United States
I wrote on the above's talk page that I'd post here to ask for feedback from other music editors. What started as a disagreement over the inclusion of the Wallflowers morphed into a discussion about an incredibly poor Bustle listicle and then, not for the first time, morphed into a question about the basic premise of the list: "one-hit wonder" vs. artist with one top 40 hit, and whether an encyclopedic article can make the two synonymous. This is a list that seems mostly edited by one editor--which is fine; too much is made of WP Ownership--and a list that has always been full of poor sources, built on top of the work of Wayne Jancik (who mentions the Wiki love on his site), and gets off to a rocky start by explaining that the artists need to be mentioned by "two sources in media", rather than two reliable sources. There are two schools of thought, maybe: Taco is a one-hit wonder vs. Frank Zappa is a musician who had one top 40 hit (Zappa is mentioned in the prose, sourced to an Entertainment Weekly "article" that is a reproduction of a VH1 list). This isn't about aesthetic judgement or rockism--I'll always take fun and poppy over serious and pretentious. But there seems to be consistent disagreement and tortured reasoning about keeping artists who had multiple hits across many U.S. formats or for whom "one-hit wonder" may not be a defining characteristic. It may be time to go with either the cultural construct or the chart history. Yesterday was my first day editing the page, to my knowledge. If I'm in the minority of thinking that the list has problems, I'll shut up and take it off my watchlist. Thoughts? Thanks. Caro7200 (talk) 16:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I always think these kind of lists are problematic, because the fundamental definition of a one-hit wonder is not fixed. The Guinness Book of British Hit Singles & Albums always defined a one-hit wonder as an artist who had one number-one hit and no other chart entries whatsoever. Here we have a US-based definition that the song need not be a number-one, and then another definition that in fact other minor chart entries are acceptable. If there is no fixed definition of a one-hit wonder then the list is always going to be debated. Richard3120 (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The inability to define the central term of the article and the extraordinary instability of that article over the long run makes me question whether it is worth having at all. Chubbles (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't say I'd thought much about it before, but seeing these comments, I'm inclined to agree with Chubbles here. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 23:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Me too. I believe I looked into this years back, but found it difficult to contribute to. Seems like there was a lot of contradictory claims by reliable sources. (Ie claims of artists being one hit wonders despite technically having 0, 2, or more, "hits" in the traditional sense.) Sadly, because the concept itself is well-known and well-documented by reliable sources, it may be difficult to delete (not that I'd personally defend it though.) Sergecross73   msg me  00:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Is K-Pop a music genre?
Due to my edits on quite a lot of articles of K-Pop songs being removed most of them saying K-Pop isn't a genre. I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus across Wikipedia if it is.

From what I know, the first known open discussion about this on English Wikipedia is made by me at Talk:K-pop and one at Talk:Ddu-du Ddu-Du#Is K-Pop a music genre?

If this discussion gets too big, maybe it could it a WikiProject if it works like that too. —Tonkarooson (talk) 00:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Now, I'm going to share my reasons why I think K-Pop is a music genre:
 * Most K-Pop music is recorded in South Korea and released in South Korea.
 * If you can tell the difference between K-Pop and other songs, then it's pretty easy to tell which song is Korean.
 * K-Pop has a unique style that can be easy to differentiate.
 * K-Pop isn't just a musical genre, it's an industry, distributed and promoted in a very different way than other territories, even if it's just a little bit.

 * also, if this topic doesnt have enough people interested, it would be best to move this discussion to a different WikiProject.—Tonkarooson (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you may want to take some more time learning how Wikipedia works before taking this on. Those sorts of reasons aren't likely to be persuasive in the context of Wikipedia... Sergecross73   msg me  23:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's no intention to persuade, but I will gladly look at the necessary guidelines about this. What things should I look at? —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm not familiar with the subject area, but the current wording of the K-pop article doesn't seem to refer to it as a genre, so it would seem like that's at least its current status. I have no personal opinion on the matter, though I can say that not every descriptor we use to describe music is automatically a genre. We don't consider a power ballad a genre either, for example.
 * Also, that's...not really how Wikiprojects work. They really just form when you've got a bunch of constant, dedicated editors who work frequently on the area and have interest in putting the work in on putting them together and collaborating in them. While anyone can make one on anything, in my experience and opinion, the vast majority of them fail due to lack of activity/participation. On one hand, K-pop is popular right now, so maybe there is hope. On the other hand, usually only the most widest appeal are functional. WP:ALBUMS is really the only other active music one besides here. WP:VG is pretty much the only active one in video games. People always say there's a popular one about military history or something. But more specific ones - like Wikiproject "Rock Music" or "Lady Gaga" or whatever - always seem to fizzle out. Sergecross73   msg me  14:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's already a WikiProject Korea/Popular culture task force that focuses on K-pop music articles. Erick (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Erick is right, there is no need for a WikiProject when a task force already exists, and that's enough. As for the original question, I tend to think that K-pop is not a genre and more a widely used term for any music originating from South Korea. I'm not an expert in this area either, but I've heard enough K-pop to see that it covers a wide variety of music styles which makes it difficult to say that a particular song or artist is "typical of the genre". Richard3120 (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the question is similar to Latin pop. Is it pop music sung in Korean or pop music fused with other Korean music? Erick (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The K-Pop article's description says "South Korean popular music genre", describing it as a genre. However, the last sentence in the first paragraph says, "While "K-pop" can refer to all popular music or pop music from South Korea, it is colloquially often used in a narrower sense for any Korean music and artists associated with the entertainment and idol industry in the country, regardless of the genre. [contradictory]". These sentences here makes its definition of a musical genre make it even more of a harder question to debate on. —Tonkarooson (talk) 04:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think K-pop is a genre and from what I see most K-pop editors on Wikipedia seem to consider it one, although some prefer more specific genres if sources say those. The K-pop article discusses it being a genre—e.g. The more modern form of the genre, originally termed "rap dance"... and discusses it being a "hybrid genre" in that it synthesizes a lot of Western music styles, like EDM and hip hop—and it's also categorised as a pop music genre. I think that's pretty clear, but obviously some editors are bound to disagree. IF there's contention around what you consider a simple broad genre description, it's best to source it.  Ss  112   17:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If you're alluding to me, its not that I disagree per se, its just that I figured it'd be a little bit more upfront in its own article if it was generally considered a genre. For example:
 * Disco opens up as "Disco is a genre of dance music".
 * K-pop opens up as "K-pop (Korean: 케이팝; RR: keipap), short for Korean popular music, is a form of popular music originating in South Korea as part of South Korean culture. It includes styles and genres from around the world, such as pop, hip hop, R&B, rock, jazz, gospel, reggae, electronic dance, folk, country, disco, and classical on top of its traditional Korean music roots".
 * In the K-pop article, the word "genre" doesn't pop up to describe the subject itself its opening 2 sentences defining it. To me, that makes it sound more like an umbrella term than a genre itself. Of course, Wikipedia itself is not a source, nor am I saying it should be considered as one. I'm just saying...if it was considered a genre, this intro would certainly feel like a rather upfront and glaring error on a high traffic and well-developed article. And one that's been present for at least the entirety of 2024.
 * Regardless, if its a recurring issue, maybe it'd be worth creating an WP:RFC for. Sergecross73   msg me  18:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This topic wasn't meant to judge if it's a genre or not according to Wikipedia. The people who edit K-Pop articles would probably know quite a lot about K-Pop as a whole. I listen to and really like K-Pop. I believe this discussion shouldn't include what Wikipedia says. Another question that could go good is, how much do you know about K-Pop and its music? —Tonkarooson (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It was just an example. Sergecross73   msg me  10:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * From a pure OR perspective, I can say that I find it complicated. Having heard a decent amount of K-pop, I can tell you that it often stretches across various genres/influences in the same way American pop music does, e.g. later BTS songs are nu-disco; Blackpink makes very loud electropop; and NewJeans make very soft, '90s/2000s electronica. I've even heard "K-pop" (or "K-indie" in some instances) groups who make rock and metal music. Typically, they are tied together sonically by a particularly squeaky clean production style, though that isn't too different from pop music generally. I think it's a bit oversimple to just call it "pop music from South Korea", but that's also a wholly accurate description. Whether that's worth labelling as its own genre, I dunno, though I think it'd be weird to remove from articles on K-pop songs/albums because of that lack of designation because the connection is still clear and it's quite reasonable to assume readers would want to click on that link.
 * But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 19:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, and it's worth noting that K-pop isn't the only national scene to which this discussion applies. An editor recently removed J-rock from an entry on List of 2007 albums. I would have to imagine the same logic would apply to J-pop, Mandopop, Cantopop, C-pop, and Indo pop (and probably a whole bunch more) as well. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 19:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know what "OR" means. Other music genres do all kinds of styles and subgenres, for example Rap, EDM and others.
 * I don't have much to say about this take because it's talking about what music styles other groups do, rather than what K-Pop has that can classify it as a genre or not.
 * Quite fascinating such similar topics are in other wide labels of music, though! —Tonkarooson (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * OR stands for "wp:original research", which is to say things that editors add per their own knowledge but without providing a reliable source that backs up the claim, AKA a big no-no. Basically, I just wanted to give my own two cents from my own knowledge, but while acknowledging that what I'm saying can't be used because I don't have the background research available to support it. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What would be extremely helpful if the people who don't know much about K-Pop can learn more about it! —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I asked a friend who is a K-pop expert, and his response wasn't a direct yes or no. Even from what I know, as I said, it's a complicated matter, and as I told my friend, I suspect that means we should default to no. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 00:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Even if we say no to K-Pop being a music genre, I believe it wouldn't be enough consensus to conduct a final answer.
 * In case you didn't see, I have listed my own reasons why I think it is a genre at the top of this discussion, including some replies back. —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * OR is short for original research. Erick (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Coming back to this discussion for a second.
 * It has been suggested that I should research on K-Pop and learn more about Wikipedia. I haven't done any research about this possible genre ngl.
 * What I wanted to add to this is, if K-Pop doesn't come to a conclusion/consensus if it is a music genre or not, possibly we could consider it as a umbrella term or a microgenre. It makes sense, on Wikipedia, it is a niche or specialized genre. What's really unique about these two terms for K-Pop is that they both fit K-Pop extremely well! (To me at least). Tonkarooson (discuss). 00:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think you're quite understanding how Wikipedia works. We, as editors, don't just decide on things on like ourselves. Everything is based on WP:V - what reliable sources say. The terminology needs to reflect what sources most commonly say on the matter. Sergecross73   msg me  01:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do understand how Wikipedia works. I understand most editors take facts from sources that are reliable. But also, I believe this question about K-Pop also has to do with the person's opinion, seeing how vast and diverse K-Pop is with its music styles. And due to this, it seems like the type of question where we possibly might have to learn more about K-Pop in a neutral point of view by learning more about its characteristics and the way K-Pop sounds compared to other songs that are not K-Pop
 * For example, you might have listened to a song and couldn't quite figure out what it's called or who's it by. For K-Pop it's a bit different but same outcome, you might be able to tell the difference between K-Pop and not K-Pop. Tonkarooson (discuss). 03:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No no no. Not "most" editors. All editors must take facts from reliable sources. Some (unfortunately too many) fail at this, but it's still a hard rule. This is not and has never been a question of editors' opinions, but of what reliable sources say. Relying on our opinions, as I said above, would be original research, and that is not allowed. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 03:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * At the top I said "I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus across Wikipedia if it is." This was partially meant to be a consensus across general knowledge of K-pop, but not original research. Also, you r comment has OR and seems to discuss the sound of all the different genres. "But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are." Yes, the sources probably thinks it's a hard question, which it seems like it is. Tonkarooson (discuss). 04:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To be clear, when I made those comment, I knew that the discussion wasn't strictly coming from a Wikipedia-centric perspective. But there's a line between just having a conversation about a topic and actually implementing the results of that discussion in editing practice. Nothing I said was ever meant to leave this page, and that's why I emphasized that it was coming from my own perspective and not any sources. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can only see 2 interpretations of what's happening here. 1) You're asking editors if we can call K-Pop a "microgenre", which no editor can unilaterally decide for you because we need to go by sources, not editor's opinions. Or 2) You're asking other editors to do your research for you, which isn't likely to happen, as on Wikipedia, we generally follow WP:BURDEN - if you wish to pursue something, then it's on you to do it, not others. Sergecross73   msg me  13:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

All female bands
Why do we categorise bands with all female members as "all female" while never categorising bands with all male members as "all male" or bands with a mix of member genders as "mixed gender"? 12:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

 * It's a problem--cat should be deleted, in my opinion. Caro7200 (talk) 12:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * One is probably considered WP:DEFINING, the other not. There are many scenarios where we we don't have "equivalent" categories like that, for that very reason. Sergecross73   msg me  13:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Seconding this. I'm sure if you search the bands in Category:All-female bands, you'll find a lot of results using that exact phrase. And, as CATGENDER says, certain categories don't need to be balanced against an equivalent. Separating categories by gender is standard Wikipedia practice now, and this falls well within those terms, so I see no issue here. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 16:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks Serge for the useful link. I may, if I ever have the energy, wade through some of them and see if it's sources or us defining them.  22:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But there is Category:Mixed-gender bands. Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me 04:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Sad news
I am sad to report that Hyacinth,a very long-standing editor to articles on this project, has passed away. Condolences should go on his talk page. Graham87 (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Best of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96
I couldn't find any sources for Best of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96 whatsoever, and I don't think it's even an official album, as it doesn't even have an entry on AllMusic. is being a bit unusual about sourcing, claiming that Kris Kross needs a source to prove the album exists even though it has an article. (I cannot wrap my brain around the concept of "Article A needs a source to prove that the subject of Article B exists.") I could only find Discogs, Genius, and other user generated sources for it, and no mentions of it in reliable sources like Billboard. I personally think it should be sent to AFD for lack of verifiability and being an unlikely redirect/merge term due to its seemingly unofficial nature, but as I am topic banned from XFD I cannot do it myself and leave it to others to decide. Pinging, , and , all of whom have edited the article. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 03:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I've found the album listed in three books:, and . It definitely exists though I am doubtful it should have it's own article. I'll add these sources to the Kris Kross article. Vladimir.copic (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm still not convinced it's notable. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 05:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * From my search I would probably agree with you that it isn't notable enough for a standalone article. But, in your initial comment you were saying that the album isn't "official" and cannt be verified. I've provided three high quality sources verifying the album exists and is "official" (whatever this means). (Also an album's "officialness" doesn't affect its notability.) Vladimir.copic (talk) 05:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Seems like a lack of sources, so it's appropriate to redirect and keep the categories. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with this and have gone ahead and boldly redirected. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music


text:
Talk:Anakim

After that

 * "There were giants in the earth in those days; AND ALSO AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

(Genesis: Chapter 6:4 (emphasis added).) The phrase "and also after that" refers to a time after the Great Flood when fallen angels once again took an interest in mating with mortal women. -- NetEsq 04:34 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)

Tribal people
Anakim the Hebrew plural, Anakites in English. We are talking about a tribal people here, are we not? (cf. Amalekites). Why don't we develop some more consistent English-language format for Wikipedia to describe these ancient peoples? The mixed formulas parroted from Victorian Bible dictionaries give rise to utter confusion, viz.:  They were probably a remnant of the original inhabitants of Palestine before the Canaanites, a Cushite tribe from Babel, and of the same race as the Phoenicians and the Egyptian shepherd kings. Was original inhabitants of Canaan before the Philistines arrived what was actually intended? Why Cushites? why Babel? what Phoenician 'race'? shepherd-kings: someconnection to the Hyksos is intended? Biblebabble! Wetman 13:12, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Anakim is plural of Enoch and new version of Anunaki
ANAKIM as plural of Enoch derived from Sumerian Anunaki - but the word Anunas have had relationship with Sanskrit word Nagas (later Hebrew word Nachash); so "Anu" (the higher ones; "above" + Nagas (reptilian like). 89.143.107.180 (talk) 13:46, 15 March 2013

 * Where did you find that? From what I read, Enoch means "dedicated" with a possible connection to the word for "mouth". Grunschild (talk) 01:26, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Long Necked Ones
According to the article on Nephilim, "Anakim" means "long-necked". Anak, the root, simply means "neck"...so it would seem to be most accurate to say they are simply decedents of Neck, but there is a possibility that they carried genes that gave the trait of having a long neck to many in this clan/tribe. Thoughts? Grunschild (talk) 01:18, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Canaanite Baal Cycle
It seems to have been overlooked that the Anakim appear in the Ba'al Cycle of the Ugaritic Texts, c. 13th/12th century BC. It's arguably the original source. Any objections to me adding this to the article, or was it omitted because the article only discusses the Anakim in a biblical context? Sadena (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Anakim


text:
Cobham, Surrey

Cobham is a village in the Borough of Elmbridge in Surrey, England, centred 17 mi south-west of London and 10 mi northeast of Guildford on the River Mole. It has a commercial/services High Street, a significant number of primary and private schools and the Painshill landscape park.

Toponymy
Cobham appears in Domesday Book of 1086 as Covenham and in 13th century copies of earlier charters as Coveham. It is recorded as Cobbeham and Cobeham in the 15th century and the first use of the modern spelling "Cobham" is from 1570. The name is thought to derive from an Anglo-Saxon landowner either as Cofa's hām or Cofa's hamm. The second part of the name may have originated from the Old English hām meaning a settlement or enclosure, or from hamm meaning land close to water.

The area of the village known as Cobham Tilt, is first recorded as la Tilthe in 1328. The name is thought to derive from the Old English Tilthe, meaning "cultivated land".

History
Cobham is an ancient settlement whose origins can be traced back on the ground through Roman times to the Iron Age. It lay within the Elmbridge hundred.

Cobham appears in Domesday Book as Covenham and was held by Chertsey Abbey. Its Domesday assets were: 12½ hides; 3 mills worth 13s 4d, 10 ploughs, 1 alike unit of meadow, woodland worth 40 hogs. It rendered altogether £14 per year to its feudal system overlords.

Historically, Cobham other than outlying farms comprised two developed areas, Street Cobham and Church Cobham. The former lay on the Portsmouth-London Road, and the building now known as the Cobham Exchange was once a coaching inn. The latter grew up around St Andrew's Church, which dates from the 12th century. Although much altered and extended in the 19th century, the church preserves a Norman tower and is a Grade I listed building (the highest architectural category).

In 1649, the Diggers established a new community at Little Heath following their expulsion from nearby St George's Hill, Weybridge. The community met some success, with 11 acre cultivated, six houses built, winter crops harvested, and several pamphlets published. The local lord, of the manor, Parson John Platt, despite initial sympathy, rallied gangs to attack the community and prevent locals in assisting them. Platt and local landowners drove the community out in April 1650.

The village's population was reported as 1617 inhabitants in 1848. The arrival of the railway in the 1880s led to the expansion of the original village, the eastern fields and southern areas towards the railway station becoming suburbanised during the 20th century. A 1960s improvements scheme widened the entrance to the High Street from River Hill to the south which was very narrow, removing a few historic and picturesque buildings, replacing some with less ornate brickwork glass-fronted buildings suitable as shops. Subsequently, the High Street has developed into a local shopping centre.

In 1951 the civil parish had a population of 7885. On 1 April 1974 the parish was abolished.

Aviation and motor industries
Cobham is 2.5 mi from Brooklands and played host to associated and its own aviation and motoring activity in the 20th century. Leading motor engineer and car designers Reid Railton and Noel Macklin set up a manufacturing facility, building Railton road cars at the Fairmile Works from 1933 to 1940. An example is displayed at Brooklands Museum in the same borough.

In World War II, after a major aircraft factory, Vickers-Armstrongs, at Brooklands was bombed by the Luftwaffe on 4 September 1940, with heavy loss of life and many more injured, the Vickers Experimental Department was quickly dispersed to secret premises on the Silvermere and Foxwarren Park estates along Redhill Road. Engineer and inventor Barnes Wallis also carried out important trials catapulting models of his 'Upkeep' bouncing bomb across Silvermere Lake around 1942 and conducted spinning trials with larger prototypes at 'Depot W46' (the largest of the three dispersed sites). Vickers had numerous other wartime dispersed depots locally and those within the boundaries or whose nearest village was Cobham included Corbie Wood and Riseholme (on Seven Hills Road), Conway Cottage and Norwood Farm.

Despite its proximity to Brooklands and Wisley airfields (both active until the early 1970s), Cobham saw relatively few aircraft crashes. Most notable was a Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter which flew low over Brooklands apparently in trouble and crashed at Cobham on 16 March 1944; the pilot survived and little else was published of this incident.

During World War II aircraft company Airspeed Ltd set up a design office at Fairmile Manor which designed the civil aircraft the Airspeed Ambassador before moving back to Portsmouth in the late 1940s.

After the war, Vickers' Experimental Department continued to use two of the Redhill Road sites (now known as 'Foxwarren') and built aircraft prototypes there such as the Viscount airliner and Valiant V-bomber, until it moved back to the main factory at Brooklands in the late 1950s.

In the 1970s residents Mike Chambers ran a business building Huron Formula Fords and a Formula Atlantic car at the Silvermere works and Geoff Uren prepared the BMW team saloon cars and Graham Hill's Jägermeister-sponsored Formula 2 car.

From 1972 to 2011 Cobham Bus Museum occupied an ex-aircraft hangar (used mainly by Vickers-Armstrongs as a machine shop) next to Silvermere golf course in Redhill Road. The bus museum reopened as the London bus museum at Brooklands Museum on 1 August 2011. The former premises have been replaced by a care home.

Boundaries
Cobham fits into a triangle between the River Mole to the south, the A3 to the north and a borderline for the most part on the nearside of the (New) London to Guildford railway line to the southeast – directly west of Oxshott. On the southern border is the historic village, Stoke D'Abernon, part of the small post town, which gives its name to the railway station between the two areas on the line mentioned: Cobham & Stoke D'Abernon.

Other
The village neighbourhoods of Downside (south) and Fairmile (east). The longstanding built-up areas resemble the adjacent fertile east banks of the Mole such as at landscape garden Painshill Park on free-draining gravel topped with layers of alluvium. This contrasts with the steep west bank, acidic sandy heath, which underlies the highest land on all the outskirts, residual outcrops of the Bagshot Sands (Formation). These isolate Cobham village historically, Esher Commons, Oxshott Heath and Woods and the Redhill Common part of Ockham and Wisley Commons.
 * Soil

Watershed points, or in international terms drainage divides, are at the summits of the sides of the lower Mole Valley, attaining 60 m and 65 m towards the east close to Oxshott and Stoke D'Abernon respectively.
 * Elevation

The River Mole runs through Cobham, with a visitor area and well-surfaced path by the mill in the High Street, dividing the remaining agricultural parts of Cobham in the west and south. Elevation reaches a minimum here of 20 m above sea level.

Cobham used to have two wards; the Cobham Fairmile ward has a population of 4,760 neighbouring Cobham and Downside has a population of 6,158. Cobham Fairmile ward has been abolished and is now part of the Oxshott and Stoke d'Abernon Ward.
 * Demography

Landmarks
At the heart of Cobham is the Church Cobham Conservation Area, which was designated in 1973 and includes fourteen statutory listed buildings. Amongst these are Pyports, once the home of Vernon Lushington; the picturesque Church Stile House; and two fine houses overlooking the River Mole: Ham Manor and Cedar House, the latter owned by the National Trust.

The Cobham Park estate was the home of John Ligonier, 1st Earl Ligonier, once Head of the Armed Forces. In 1806, the estate was bought by Harvey Christian Combe, a brewer and Lord Mayor of London. The present house was completed in 1873 by his nephew, Charles Combe, to a design by Edward Middleton Barry: It has now been divided into apartments. Painshill Park is a fine 18th-century landscape garden, restored from dereliction since 1980. Painshill House dates from the 18th century and has also been divided into apartments.

Two other large houses on the outskirts of Cobham have been taken over by schools: Heywood is now the American Community School, and Burwood House is now Notre Dame School.

The Chelsea F.C. training ground is also nearby.

Cobham Mill

The River Mole provides a setting for the red brick water mill, constructed in the late 18th century and once part of a much larger complex. It stands on the site of earlier mills dating back to the Middle Ages. The mill was in use until 1928, when it became uneconomical to continue operating. Thereafter it was used as a storehouse.

During World War II, a Canadian tank collided with the main building, causing much damage.

In 1953 the main part of the mill was demolished by Surrey County Council to alleviate traffic congestion on Mill Road. This left just the grist mill standing.

In 1973 the Cobham Conservation Group was formed, later to become the Cobham Conservation and Heritage Trust, and one of its main objectives was to rescue the much deteriorated grist mill building from sliding into the river as a result of water erosion of the mill island. In 1986 the freehold of the mill was taken over by the Thames Water Authority who, as part of their flood control expenditure rebuilt the weirs nearby. They also recognised that the mill was Grade II listed and shored up the mill's foundations.

Thereafter, the Cobham Mill Preservation Trust was formed as a sister organisation to the Cobham Conservation Group and took over the leasehold. The building was restored to full working order by the volunteers of the Cobham Mill Preservation Trust, and first opened to the public in 1993. Cobham Mill is now open to the public from 2 pm to 5 pm on the second Sunday of each month between April and October, inclusive.

Education
St Andrew's Primary School is located in the village as is Cobham Free School which is an all-through school. A local prep school is Feltonfleet School. There are three independent schools: Notre Dame; ACS (The American Community Schools) Cobham International and Reed's School.

Local leisure and entertainment
Painshill Park is nearby and Silvermere golf course is located in Redhill Road on the north side of the A3. Cobham has four football clubs: Cobham F.C., Mole Valley SCR F.C., Cobham United Football Club and Cobham Town FC (formed 2007). Cobham also has a cricket club, Cobham Avorians, formed in 1928. Avorians was named after its founder, local landowner Edward James Avory, and originally played at the Fairmile Estate before re-locating to Convent Lane on the Burwood Estate in 1948. Cobham Rugby Football Club has four teams which play regularly, as well as youth and mini sections. There is Cobham Village Club and a branch of the Royal British Legion. Cobham Players regularly present plays, musicals, pantomimes and other entertainments in Cobham.

Walton Firs Activity Centre lies just off the A3 in Cobham and covers 28 acres. It takes its name from Colonel Walton, who dealt with the purchase of the site in 1939. It was used by a Royal Artillery anti-aircraft battery during World War II and in peacetime returned to use as a Scout camp site. During the 1990s some 3,000 additional trees were planted, and more recently an all-weather barn and an artificial, but realistic, caving complex have been added.

Parliament and local
The Member of Parliament (MP) is Conservative Ben Spencer, elected in 2019 as the successor to Dominic Raab

In local government Cobham is part of Elmbridge Borough Council and Surrey County Council. Until 2016, Cobham was divided into two wards, Cobham Fairmile and Cobham & Downside for Elmbridge voting. Following boundary changes in 2016, Cobham was divided between a newly drawn Cobham and downside ward and an expanded Oxshott & Stoke d'Abernon ward, with the Fairmile name disappearing. There are six councillors covering the two new wards, 4 Conservative and 2 Liberal Democrat as from May 2023. Cobham councillor James Browne was Leader of Elmbridge Borough Council in 2019. For Surrey County voting, Cobham is paired with Stoke d'Abernon.

Cobham has many old buildings, conservation areas and housing development pressures. It has a very active Heritage Trust, re-formed in 2007, and a lower-profile Residents Association. Unlike neighbouring areas in Elmbridge, Residents and amenity groups do not contest local elections in Cobham; occasionally independents have stood, such as in a 2007 by-election. The only non-Conservative elected was a Liberal/Focus councillor, Mike King in 1984 in the Fairmile ward, which includes some high density social and private housing beside the A3, as well upmarket private estates. Cobham and Downside ward includes the village centre, private estates off the A245 Stoke Road, semi-rural Downside and Hatchford, Ockham south of the M25.Since a by election in July 2021, the Liberal Democrats have taken 2 out of the 3 Cobham seats on Elmbridge B.C.

Since the 2013 Surrey County election, the local Member for Cobham is Conservative, Mrs Mary Lewis who serves as Cabinet member for Children, Young People and Families. A Cobham & Downside member on Elmbridge, Mike Bennison since 2005 also represents the next 3 stops up the line to London Oxshott Claygate and Hinchley Wood on Surrey County Council.

British Army
Following the formation of the Territorial Force in 1908, the village for recruiting, was granted to the 6th Battalion, The East Surrey Regiment which maintained a platoon from A Company. The village also maintained the "Sandyroyd School Troops of Scouts".

Road and rail links
To the north and west of the village is the A3 trunk road, a major arterial route from London to Portsmouth. This road links to the M25 motorway at Junction 10, immediately to the southwest of Cobham.
 * The A307, Portsmouth Road starts in Cobham and runs northwards to the adjoining town of Esher. This is also known as the "old A3".
 * The A245 runs through the centre of the town and leads to Leatherhead in the south-east and Byfleet to the west.

Cobham & Stoke d'Abernon railway station, opened in 1885, is on the New Guildford line from London Waterloo.

Police and fire services
The closest public desk and offices of Surrey Police is at the Civic Offices, Elmbridge Borough Council, in Esher.

Surrey Fire & Rescue Service, called Painshill Fire Station, has a full-time day crew together with:
 * 1 water tender ladder
 * 1 incident command unit
 * 1 HIAB Unimog
 * 1 Multi-role vehicle (MRV)

Notable people

 * John Addison, (1920–1998), composer, was born in Cobham.
 * Matthew Arnold, (1822–1888), poet, lived in Cobham from 1873 to 1888.
 * Malcolm Arbuthnot, (1877–1967), pictorialist, photographer and artist, was born in Cobham.
 * Sir Felix Aylmer, (1889–1979), actor, lived at Painshill House, Cobham in the 1970s.
 * Antonio Banderas (born 1960), Spanish actor, lives in Cobham
 * General Sir Thomas Brotherton, (1785–1868), died nearby and is buried in St. Andrew's churchyard.
 * Harvey Christian Combe, (1752–1818), brewer, Lord Mayor of London, owner of Cobham Park
 * Aaron Eckhart, (born 1968), American actor, lived in Cobham and attended the American Community School.
 * Shane Filan, (born 1979), singer, former member of Westlife, has homes in Cobham and Sligo, Ireland.
 * Kit Hain, (born 1956), singer and songwriter, was born in Cobham
 * Harold B. Hudson, (1898–1982), World War I flying ace, was born in Cobham.
 * Nick Jones, (born 1963), entrepreneur, owner of Babington House and husband of Kirsty Young, grew up in Cobham.
 * Nicholas Lane, (c. 1585–1644), cartographer, came from a Cobham family and his earliest surviving work, 1613, is of Painshill.
 * John Ligonier, 1st Earl Ligonier, (1680–1770), Commander-in-Chief of the British Army, lived at Cobham Park.
 * Vernon Lushington, (1832–1912), lawyer and patron to the arts, lived at Pyports in Cobham.
 * Sir (Albert) Noel Campbell Macklin (1886–1946), of Fairmile estate, a British car maker and boat designer.
 * Kenneth McAlpine (1920–2023), racing driver, was born in Cobham.
 * Nichola McAuliffe (born 1955), television and stage actress and writer, was born in Cobham.
 * Admiral Sir Graham Moore, (1764–1843), naval officer, lived at Brook Farm in Cobham and is buried in St. Andrew's churchyard.
 * General Lord Henry Percy VC KCB, (1817–1877), soldier and MP, was born at Burwood House (now Notre Dame School).
 * Sir Thomas Sopwith, (1888–1989), aviation pioneer and industrialist who founded the Sopwith Aviation, H G Hawker Engineering, Hawker Aircraft and Hawker Siddeley aircraft companies, lived at Compton House, Cobham in the 1920s.
 * Fred Stedman, (1870–1918), Surrey county cricketer, was born in Cobham.
 * Gerrard Winstanley, (1609–1676), reformer, lived in Cobham from 1643 and was churchwarden in 1667–1668.
 * Louis Cole, British film-maker and YouTube personality.
 * Mudar Zahran, Jordanian politician and Secretary General of the Jordanian Opposition Coalition.
 * Sue Biggs, director general of the Royal Horticultural Society.

Demography and housing
The average level of accommodation in the region composed of detached houses was 28%, the average that was apartments was 22.6%.

The proportion of households in the settlement who owned their home outright compares to the regional average of 35.1%. The proportion who owned their home with a loan compares to the regional average of 32.5%. The remaining % is made up of rented dwellings (plus a negligible % of households living rent-free).

In film, fiction and the media
The Cobham News & Mail covered local news in the latter part of the 20th century until it closed and was incorporated into the Surrey Advertiser. Cobham is also covered by the Elmbridge Guardian, the Surrey Herald and the Surrey Comet newspapers.

Nearest places

 * Stoke D'Abernon
 * Oxshott
 * Esher
 * Leatherhead
 * Hersham
 * Weybridge
 * Walton-on-Thames
 * Effingham
 * Byfleet
 * East Horsley
 * West Horsley
 * Downside

title: Cobham, Surrey


text:
Latin Empire

The Latin Empire, also referred to as the Latin Empire of Constantinople, was a feudal Crusader state founded by the leaders of the Fourth Crusade on lands captured from the Byzantine Empire. The Latin Empire was intended to replace the Byzantine Empire as the Western-recognized Roman Empire in the east, with a Catholic emperor enthroned in place of the Eastern Orthodox Roman emperors. The main objective of the Latin Empire was planned by Venice, which promoted the creation of this state for their self-benefit.

The Fourth Crusade had originally been called to retake the Muslim-controlled city of Jerusalem, but a sequence of economic and political events culminated in the Crusader army sacking the city of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire. Originally, the plan had been to restore the deposed Byzantine Emperor Isaac II Angelos, who had been usurped by Alexios III Angelos, to the throne. The crusaders had been promised financial and military aid by Isaac's son Alexios IV, with which they had planned to continue to Jerusalem. When the crusaders reached Constantinople, the situation quickly turned volatile, and while Isaac and Alexios briefly ruled, the crusaders did not receive the payment they had hoped for. In April 1204, they captured and plundered the city's enormous wealth.

The crusaders selected their own emperor from among their own ranks, Baldwin of Flanders, and divided the territory of the Byzantine Empire into various new vassal crusader states. The Latin Empire's authority was immediately challenged by Byzantine rump states led by the Laskaris family (connected to the Angelos dynasty of 1185–1204) in Nicaea and the Komnenos family (which had ruled as Byzantine Emperors 1081–1185) in Trebizond. From 1224 to 1242, the Komnenos Doukas family, also connected to the Angeloi, challenged Latin authority from Thessalonica. The Latin Empire failed to attain political or economic dominance over the other Latin powers that had been established in former Byzantine territories in the wake of the Fourth Crusade, especially Venice, and after a short initial period of military successes, it went into a steady decline due to constant war with Bulgaria to the north and the various Byzantine claimants. Eventually, the Nicene Empire recovered Constantinople and restored the Byzantine Empire under Michael VIII Palaiologos in 1261. The last Latin emperor, Baldwin II, went into exile, but the imperial title survived, with several pretenders to it, until the 14th century.

The incontestable Venetian dominance in the region was not limited to the practical respect but was also demonstrated by the new title adopted by the doges, which is 'Dominus quartae partis et dimidie totius Imperii Romaniae', attached to the one of 'Dux Venetiarum, Dalmatiae Croatiaeque'. Beginning with the letters of Innocent III, dated 20 June 1203 and 29 January 1205, the Papacy often used this term too. The term ("Land of the Romans") had been used as a vernacular name for centuries, first by the inhabitants of the entire Late Roman Empire, then by the population of the Byzantine Empire.

Etymology
The term "Latin Empire" was not contemporary, and was first used by historians in the 16th century to distinguish the Crusader state from the classical Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, all of which called themselves "Roman". The term "Latin" was chosen because the crusaders (Franks, Venetians, and other Westerners) were Roman Catholic and used Latin as their liturgical and scholarly language in contrast to the Eastern Orthodox locals who used Greek in both liturgy and common speech. The Byzantines referred to the Latin Empire as the 'rule of the Franks', or the  'rule of the Latins'.

Founding treaties issued by the crusaders specifically refer to the empire as the imperium Constantinopolitanum ("Empire of Constantinople"). Although this is a marked departure from the standard Byzantine nomenclature and ideology, designating the empire as the Basileía Rhōmaíōn 'Empire of the Romans', imperium Constantinopolitanum was the standard name used for the eastern empire in western sources, such as in papal correspondence, and suggests that the Latin leaders viewed themselves as "taking over" the empire rather than "replacing" it. It would have been difficult for the crusaders to justify referring to the empire as "Roman" considering that Western Europe generally held the Germanic Holy Roman Empire to represent the legitimate Roman Empire. The full title actually used by the first Latin Emperor, Baldwin I, was Balduinus dei gratia fidelissimus in Christo imperator a Deo coronatus Romanorum moderator et semper augustus, a near perfect replication of the one used by Alexios IV Angelos, placed on the throne by the crusaders previously, in a letter (only known in its Latin version) to Pope Innocent III: fidelis in Christo imperator a Deo coronatus Romanorum moderator et semper augustus. Letters by Baldwin to Pope Innocent III give his title as imperator Constantinopolitanus, possibly altered by Papal scribes as the Pope recognized the Holy Roman Emperor as the imperator Romanorum. In his seals, Baldwin abbreviated Romanorum as Rom., conveniently leaving it open for interpretation whether he referred to Romaniae 'land of the Romans' or Romanorum 'the Romans'. It is probably more likely that he meant Romanorum. Baldwin's successor Henry called the empire imperium Romanum at least in one letter. A Venetian statesman Marino Sanuto the Elder used yet another appellative, Sebastō Latíno Basilía ton Rhōmaíōn (Σεβαστό Λατίνο βασιλιά των Ρωμαίων, lit. "August Latin Empire of the Romans"). The term "Romania" had been a vernacular name used for centuries by the population of the Late Roman polity for their country.

Three different versions of imperial titulature are attested under Henry; Henricus Dei Gratia Imperator Romaniae 'Emperor of Romania', Henricus Dei Gratia Imperator Romanorum 'Emperor of the Romans' and Henricus Dei Gratia Imperator Constantinopolitani 'Emperor of Constantinople', possibly intended for different recipients. Usage of the title Emperor of Constantinople may not just have been to appease the Pope and Western Europe, but might also have been used to legitimize the rule of the Latin Emperors in regards to the Byzantines that they ruled. Possession of the city itself was a key legitimizing factor that set the Latin Emperors apart from Byzantine claimants in Nicaea, Trebizond and Thessalonica.

Origins
After the Sack of Constantinople, the crusaders agreed to divide up Byzantine territory. In the Partitio terrarum imperii Romaniae, signed on 1 October 1204, three eighths of the empire—including Crete and other islands—went to the Republic of Venice. The Latin Empire claimed the remainder and exerted control over: Further duchies were projected in Asia Minor, at Nicaea (for Louis of Blois), Nicomedia (Thierry de Loos), Philadelphia (Stephen du Perche), and Neokastra. These duchies remained theoretical, due to the establishment of the Empire of Nicaea in the area. Nicaea itself was never occupied and Louis of Blois was killed in 1205. Thierry de Loos was captured by the Nicaeans in 1207 and, although released, left the Latin Empire two years later. After a brief Nicaean reconquest, Nicomedia returned to Latin control, but the ducatus Nichomedie remained part of the Imperial domain. Philadelphia never came under actual Latin control, although the Latin emperor Henry of Flanders laid claim to the region after defeating the local strongman, Theodore Mangaphas, in 1205. The duchy of Neokastra (ducatus Novi Castri) on the other hand was never accorded to a single holder, but was divided among the Knights Hospitaller (one quarter) and other feudatories. The term "duchy" in this case reflects the earlier Byzantine term theme, usually governed by a doux, to designate a province.
 * areas of Greece, divided into vassal fiefs:
 * the Kingdom of Thessalonica
 * the Principality of Achaea
 * the Duchy of Athens
 * the Duchy of the Archipelago
 * the short-lived Duchy of Philippopolis in north Thrace

The Doge of Venice did not rank as a vassal to the Latin Empire. Still, his position in control of three-eighths of its territory and of parts of Constantinople itself ensured Venice's influence in the Empire's affairs. However, much of the former Byzantine territory remained in the hands of rival successor states led by Byzantine Greek aristocrats, such as the Despotate of Epirus, the Empire of Nicaea, and the Empire of Trebizond, each bent on reconquest from the Latins.

On 9 May 1204, Baldwin I was elected the emperor with Venetian support, and crowned on 16 May in the Hagia Sophia in a ceremony that closely followed Eastern Roman practices. Not long after the coronation, Baldwin ventured out into the Thracian countryside, posturing not as a conqueror but as a legitimate ruler, expecting to be universally acclaimed by the populace as the Emperor of the Romans. The establishment of the Latin Empire had the curious effect of creating five simultaneously existing polities claiming to be the Roman Empire: the Latin empire, the Holy Roman Empire, and the three remnants of the Byzantine Empire, the Despotate of Epirus, the empire of Nicaea, and the empire of Trebizond.

In Asia Minor
The initial campaigns of the crusaders in Asia Minor resulted in the capture of most of Bithynia by 1205, with the defeat of the forces of Theodore I Laskaris at Poemanenum and Prusa. Latin successes continued, and in 1207 a truce was signed with Theodore, newly proclaimed Emperor of Nicaea. The Latins inflicted a further defeat on Nicaean forces at the Rhyndakos river in October 1211, and three years later the Treaty of Nymphaeum (1214) recognized their control of most of Bithynia and Mysia.

The peace was maintained until 1222, when the resurgent power of Nicaea felt sufficiently strong to challenge the Latin Empire, by that time weakened by constant warfare in its European provinces. At the battle of Poimanenon in 1224, the Latin army was defeated, and by the next year Emperor Robert of Courtenay was forced to cede all his Asian possessions to Nicaea, except for Nicomedia and the territories directly across from Constantinople. Nicaea turned also to the Aegean, capturing the islands awarded to the empire. In 1235, finally, the last Latin possessions fell to Nicaea.

In Europe
Unlike in Asia, where the Latin Empire faced only an initially weak Nicaea, in Europe it was immediately confronted with a powerful enemy: the Bulgarian tsar Kaloyan. When Baldwin campaigned against the Byzantine lords of Thrace, they called upon Kaloyan for help. At the Battle of Adrianople on 14 April 1205, the Latin heavy cavalry and knights were crushed by Kaloyan's troops and Cuman allies, and Emperor Baldwin was captured. He was imprisoned in the Bulgarian capital Tarnovo until his death later in 1205. Kaloyan was murdered a couple of years later (1207) during a siege of Thessalonica, and the Bulgarian threat conclusively defeated with a victory the following year, which allowed Baldwin's successor, Henry of Flanders, to reclaim most of the lost territories in Thrace until 1210, when peace was concluded with the marriage of Henry to Maria of Bulgaria, tsar Kaloyan's daughter.

At the same time, another Greek successor state, the Despotate of Epirus, under Michael I Komnenos Doukas, posed a threat to the empire's vassals in Thessalonica and Athens. Henry demanded his submission, which Michael provided, giving off his daughter to Henry's brother Eustace in the summer of 1209. This alliance allowed Henry to launch a campaign in Macedonia, Thessaly and Central Greece against the rebellious Lombard lords of Thessalonica. However, Michael's attack on the Kingdom of Thessalonica in 1210 forced him to return north to relieve the city and to force Michael back into submission.

In 1214 however, Michael died, and was succeeded by Theodore Komnenos Doukas, who was determined to capture Thessalonica. On 11 June 1216, while supervising repairs to the walls of Thessalonica, Henry died, and was succeeded by Peter of Courtenay, who himself was captured and executed by Theodore the following year. A regency was set up in Constantinople, headed by Peter's widow, Yolanda of Flanders, until her death in 1219. Her son Robert of Courtenay being absent in France, the regency passed first to Conon de Béthune, and after his death shortly after, to Cardinal Giovanni Colonna, until 1221, when Robert of Courtenay arrived in Constantinople. Distracted by the renewed war with Nicaea, and waiting in vain for assistance from Pope Honorius III and the King of France Philip II, the Latin Empire was unable to prevent the final fall of Thessalonica to Epirus in 1224. Epirote armies then conquered Thrace in 1225–26, appearing before Constantinople itself. The Latin Empire was saved for a time by the threat posed to Theodore by the Bulgarian tsar Ivan II Asen, and a truce was concluded in 1228.

Decline and fall
After Robert of Courtenay died in 1228, a new regency under John of Brienne was set up. After the disastrous Epirote defeat by the Bulgarians at the Battle of Klokotnitsa, the Epirote threat to the Latin Empire was removed, only to be replaced by Nicaea, which started acquiring territories in Greece. Emperor John III Doukas Vatatzes of Nicaea concluded an alliance with Bulgaria, which in 1235 resulted in a joint campaign against the Latin Empire, and an unsuccessful siege of Constantinople the same year. In 1237, Baldwin II attained majority and took over the reins of a much-diminished state. The empire's precarious situation forced him to travel often to Western Europe seeking aid, but largely without success. In order to raise funds, he was forced to resort to desperate means, from removing the lead roofs of the Great Palace and selling them, to handing over his only son, Philip, to Venetian merchants as a guarantee for a loan.

By 1247, the Nicaeans had effectively surrounded the main holdings of the Emperor in the new European land system. Following the victory at the Battle of Pelagonia in 1259 Michael VIII Palaiologos of the Nicaean empire  had only one obstacle left. The Theodosian walls and the Latin Forces. He had already cut of the Latins from aid from the Latin estates of Greece or the Nicaeans rivals and also a successor state to the Byzantines the Despotate of Epirus.

The first attempt to take Constantinople occurred in 1260 when a Latin knight taken prisoner in Pelagonia, whose house was in the city walls, promised to open a gate for the emperor's troops. He failed to do so, and Palaiologos launched an unsuccessful assault on Galata Instead. In preparation for another attempt, an alliance with Genoa was concluded in March 1261, and in July 1261

As the one-year truce concluded after the failed Nicaean attack was nearing its end, the general Alexios Strategopoulos was sent with a small advance force of 800 soldiers (most of them Cumans) to keep a watch on the Bulgarians and spy out the defences of the Latins.

When the Nicaean force reached the village of Selymbria, some 30 miles (48 km) west of Constantinople, they learned from some independent local farmers (thelematarioi) that the entire Latin garrison, as well as the Venetian fleet, were absent conducting a raid against the Nicaean island of Daphnousia. Strategopoulos initially hesitated to take advantage of the situation, since his small force might be destroyed if the Latin army returned too soon, and because he would exceed the emperor's orders, but eventually decided he could not squander such a golden opportunity to retake the city.

On the night of 24/25 July 1261, Strategopoulos and his men approached the city walls and hid at a monastery near the Gate of the Spring. Strategopoulos sent a detachment of his men, led by some of the, to make their way to the city through a secret passage. They attacked the walls from the inside, surprised the guards and opened the gate, giving the Nicaean force entry into the city. The Latins were taken completely unaware, and after a short struggle, the Nicaeans gained control of the land walls. As news of this spread across the city, the Latin inhabitants, from Emperor Baldwin II downwards, hurriedly rushed to the harbours of the Golden Horn, hoping to escape by ship. At the same time, Strategopoulos' men set fire to the Venetian buildings and warehouses along the coast to prevent them from landing there. Thanks to the timely arrival of the returning Venetian fleet, many of the Latins managed to evacuate to the still Latin-held parts of Greece, but the city was lost.

Nicaean general Alexios Strategopoulos found an unguarded entrance to the city, and entered it with only 800 troops, restoring the Byzantine Empire for his master, Michael VIII Palaiologos.

The remaining Latin states ruled territories of present-day Greece, some of them until the 18th century, and are known as Latinokratia.

Titular claimants
For about a century thereafter, the heirs of Baldwin II continued to use the title of Emperor of Constantinople, and were seen as the overlords of the various remaining Latin states in the Aegean. They exercised effective authority in Greece only when actually ruling as princes of Achaea, from 1333–1383.

James of Baux was the last of these Latin emperors to govern any imperial territory through Achaea. His reign lasted from 1374 until his death on 7 July 1383.

Administration
The empire was formed and administered on Western European feudal principles, incorporating some elements of the Byzantine bureaucracy. The emperor was assisted by a council, composed of the various barons, the Venetian Podestà of Constantinople and his six-member council. This council had a major voice in the governance of the realm, especially in periods of regency, when the Regent (moderator imperii) was dependent on their consent to rule. The podestà, likewise, was an extremely influential member, being practically independent of the emperor. He exercised authority over the Venetian quarters of Constantinople and Pera and the Venetian dominions within the empire, assisted by a separate set of officials. His role was more that of an ambassador and vicegerent of Venice than a vassal to the empire. The podestà was granted the title of Governor of One-Fourth and One-Half of the Empire of Romania, and was entitled to wearing the imperial crimson buskins like the emperor.

Economy
The Latins did not trust the professional Greek bureaucracy, and in the immediate aftermath of the conquest completely dismantled the Greek economic administration of the areas they controlled. The result was disastrous, disrupting all forms of production and trade. Almost from its inception the Latin Empire was sending requests back to the papacy for aid. For a few years, the major commodities it exported from the surrounding region of Thrace were wheat and furs; it also profited from Constantinople's strategic location on major trade routes. While the empire showed some moderate vitality while Henry of Flanders was alive, after his death in 1216 there was a major deficit in leadership. By the 1230s, Constantinople – even with its drastically reduced population – was facing a major shortage of basic foodstuffs. In several senses, the only significant export on which the economy of the Latin Empire had any real basis was the sale of relics back to Western Europe which had been looted from Greek churches. For example, Emperor Baldwin II sold the relic of the Crown of Thorns while in France trying to raise new funds.

Society
The elite of the empire were the Frankish and Venetian lords, headed by the emperor, the barons and the lower-ranking vassals and liege lords, including many former Byzantine aristocrats. The bulk of the people were Orthodox Greeks, still divided according to the Byzantine system in income classes based on land ownership.

Church
As with all Latin states, the Orthodox hierarchy was replaced by Roman Catholic prelates, but not suppressed. An expansive Catholic hierarchy was established, under the dual supervision of the Latin archbishop of Constantinople and the Papal legate, until the two offices were merged in 1231. Western Catholic religious orders, such as the Cistercians, the Dominicans and the Franciscans were established in the empire. The Orthodox clergy retained its rites and customs, including its right to marriage, but was demoted to a subordinate position, subject to the local Latin bishops.

title: Latin Empire