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Romani Holocaust

The Romani Holocaust was the planned effort by Nazi Germany and its World War II allies and collaborators to commit ethnic cleansing and eventually genocide against European Roma and Sinti peoples during the Holocaust era.

Under Adolf Hitler, a supplementary decree to the Nuremberg Laws was issued on 26 November 1935, classifying the Romani people (or Roma) as "enemies of the race-based state", thereby placing them in the same category as the Jews. Thus, the fate of the Roma in Europe paralleled that of the Jews in the Holocaust.

Historians estimate that between 250,000 and 500,000 Romani and Sinti were killed by Nazi Germans and their collaborators—25% to over 50% of the estimate of slightly fewer than 1 million Roma in Europe at the time. Later research cited by Ian Hancock estimated the death toll to be at about 1.5 million out of an estimated 2 million European Roma.

In 1982, West Germany formally recognized that Nazi Germany had committed genocide against the Romani people. In 2011, Poland officially adopted 2 August as a day of commemoration of the Romani genocide.

Within the Nazi German state, first persecution, then extermination, was aimed primarily at sedentary "Gypsy mongrels". In December 1942, Heinrich Himmler ordered the deportation of all Roma from the Greater Germanic Reich, and most were sent to the specially established Gypsy concentration camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Other Roma were deported there from the Nazi-occupied Western European territories. Approximately 21,000 of the 23,000 European Roma and Sinti sent there did not survive. In areas outside the reach of systematic registration, e.g., in the German-occupied areas of Eastern and Southeastern Europe, the Roma who were most threatened were those who, in the German judgment, were "vagabonds", though some were actually refugees or displaced persons. Here, they were killed mainly in massacres perpetrated by the German military and police formations as well as by the Schutzstaffel (SS) task forces, and in armed resistance against the Nazi German occupation of Europe.

Alternate terms
The term porajmos (also porrajmos or pharrajimos—literally, "devouring" or "destruction" in some dialects of the Romani language) was introduced by Ian Hancock in the early 1990s. Hancock chose to use the term, coined by a Kalderash Rom, from a number of suggestions which were given during an "informal conversation in 1993".

The term is mostly used by activists and as a result, its usage is unknown to most Roma, including relatives of victims and survivors. Some Russian and Balkan Romani activists protest against the use of the word porajmos. In various dialects, porajmos is synonymous with poravipe which means "violation" and "rape", a term which some Roma consider offensive. János Bársony and Ágnes Daróczi, pioneering organisers of the Romani civil rights movement in Hungary, prefer to use the term Pharrajimos, a Romani word which means "cutting up", "fragmentation", "destruction". They argue against the use of the term porrajmos, saying that it is marhime (unclean, untouchable): "[p]orrajmos is unpronounceable in the Roma community, and thus, it is incapable of conveying the sufferings of the Roma".

Balkan Romani activists prefer to use the term samudaripen ("mass killing"), first introduced by linguist Marcel Courthiade in the 1970s in Yugoslavia in the context of Auschwitz and Jasenovac. It is a neologism of sa (Romani for 'all') and mudaripen (murder). It can be translated as 'murder of all' or 'mass murder'. The International Romani Union now uses this term. Ian Hancock dismisses this word, arguing that it does not conform to Romani language morphology. Some Ruska Roma activists offer to use the term Kali Traš ("Black Fear"). Another alternative that has been used is Berša Bibahtale ("The Unhappy Years"). Lastly, adapted borrowings such as Holokosto, Holokausto, etc. are also used in the Romani language on some occasions.

Linguistically, the term porajmos is composed of the verb root porrav- and the abstract-forming nominal ending -imos. This ending is of the Vlax Romani dialect, whereas other varieties generally use -ibe(n) or -ipe(n). For the verb itself, the most commonly given meaning is "to open/stretch wide" or "to rip open", whereas the meaning "to open up the mouth, devour" occurs in fewer dialects.

Emergence of scientific racism
In the late 19th century, the emergence of scientific racism and Social Darwinism, linking social differences with racial differences, provided the German public with pseudoscientific justifications for prejudices against Jews and Roma. During this period, "the concept of race was systematically employed in order to explain social phenomena." Proponents of this approach attempted to validate the belief that races were not variations of a single species of man because they had distinctly different biological origins. Proponents of this approach established a purportedly scientifically-based racial hierarchy, which they believed defined certain minority groups as the other on the basis of biology.

In addition to being a period in which racial pseudoscience was widely promoted, the end of the 19th century was a period of state-sponsored modernization in Germany. Industrial development altered many aspects of society. Most notably, the changes which occurred during this period caused the social norms of work and life to shift. For the Roma, this shift in the social norms of work and life led to the denial of their traditional way of life as craftsmen and artisans. János Bársony notes that "industrial development devalued their services as craftsmen, resulting in the disintegration of their communities and social marginalization."

Persecution by the German Empire and the Weimar Republic
The developments of racial pseudoscience and modernization resulted in anti-Romani state interventions, carried out by both the German Empire and the Weimar Republic. In 1899, the Imperial Police Headquarters in Munich established the Information Services on Romani by the Security Police. Its purpose was to keep records (identification cards, fingerprints, photographs, etc.) and continuous surveillance on the Roma community. In 1904, Prussia adopted a resolution calling for regulation of Gypsy movement. In 1911, the Bavarian Ministry of the Interior organized a conference in Munich to discuss the "Gypsy problem" and to coordinate efforts against Gypsies. Roma in the Weimar Republic were forbidden from entering public swimming pools, parks, and other recreational areas, and depicted throughout Germany and Europe as criminals and spies.

The 1926 "Law for the Fight Against Gypsies, Vagrants and the Workshy" was enforced in Bavaria, and became the national norm by 1929. It stipulated that groups identifying as 'Gypsies' avoid all travel to the region. Those already living in the area were to "be kept under control so that there [was] no longer anything to fear from them with regard to safety in the land." They were forbidden from "roam[ing] about or camp[ing] in bands", and those "unable to prove regular employment" risked being sent to forced labor for up to two years. Herbet Heuss notes that "[t]his Bavarian law became the model for other German states and even for neighbouring countries."

The demand for Roma to give up their nomadic ways and settle in a specific region was often the focus of anti-Romani policy both in the German Empire and the Weimar Republic. Once settled, communities were concentrated and isolated in a single area of a town or city. This segregation facilitated state-run surveillance practices and 'crime prevention.'

Following the passage of the Law for the Fight Against Gypsies, Vagrants, and the Workshy, public policy increasingly targeted the Roma on the explicit basis of race. In 1927, Prussia passed a law that required all Roma to carry identity cards. Eight thousand Roma were processed this way and subjected to mandatory fingerprinting and photographing. Two years later, the focus became more explicit. In 1929, the German state of Hessen proposed the "Law for the Fight Against the Gypsy Menace". The same year, the Centre for the Fight Against Gypsies in Germany was opened. This body enforced restrictions on travel for undocumented Roma and "allowed for the arbitrary arrest and detention of gypsies as a means of crime prevention."

Aryan racial purity
For centuries, Romani tribes had been subject to antiziganist persecution and humiliation in Europe. They were stigmatized as habitual criminals, social misfits, and vagabonds. When Hitler came to national power in 1933, anti-Gypsy laws in Germany remained in effect. Under the "Law against Dangerous Habitual Criminals" of November 1933, the police arrested many Roma, along with others the Nazis viewed as "asocial"—prostitutes, beggars, homeless vagrants, and alcoholics—and imprisoned them in internment camps.

After Hitler's rise to power, legislation against the Romani was increasingly based upon a rhetoric of racism. Policy originally based on the premise of "fighting crime" was redirected to "fighting a people". Targeted groups were no longer determined on juridical grounds, but instead, were victims of racialized policy.

The Department of Racial Hygiene and Population Biology began to experiment on Romani to determine criteria for their racial classification.

The Nazis established the Racial Hygiene and Demographic Biology Research Unit (Rassenhygienische und Bevölkerungsbiologische Forschungsstelle, Department L3 of the Reich Department of Health) in 1936. Headed by Robert Ritter and his assistant Eva Justin, this unit was mandated to conduct an in-depth study of the "Gypsy question (Zigeunerfrage)" and to provide data required for formulating a new Reich "Gypsy law". After extensive fieldwork in the spring of 1936, consisting of interviews and medical examinations to determine the racial classification of the Roma, the unit decided that most Romani, whom they had concluded were not of "pure Gypsy blood", posed a danger to German racial purity and should be deported or eliminated. No decision was made regarding the remainder (about 10 percent of the total Romani population of Europe), primarily Sinti and Lalleri tribes living in Germany. Several suggestions were made. Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler suggested deporting the Romani to a remote reservation, as the United States had done to Native Americans, where "pure Gypsies" could continue their nomadic lifestyle unhindered. According to him:

"The aim of measures taken by the State to defend the homogeneity of the German nation must be the physical separation of Gypsydom from the German nation, the prevention of miscegenation, and finally, the regulation of the way of life of pure and part-Gypsies. The necessary legal foundation can only be created through a Gypsy Law, which prevents further intermingling of blood, and which regulates all the most pressing questions which go together with the existences of Roma in the living space of the German nation."

Himmler took special interest into the "Aryan" origins of the Romani and distinguished between "settled" (assimilated) and "unsettled" Romani. In May 1942 an order was issued according to which all "Gypsies" living in the Balkans were to be arrested.

Although the Nazi regime never produced the "Gypsy Law" desired by Himmler, policies and decrees were passed which discriminated against the Romani people. Roma were classified as "asocial" and "criminals" by the Nazi regime. From 1933 on, Roma were placed in concentration camps. After 1937, the Nazis started to carry out racial examinations on the Roma living in Germany. In 1938, Himmler issued an order regarding the 'Gypsy question' which explicitly mentioned "race" which stated that it was "advisable to deal with the Gypsy question on the basis of race." The decree made it law to register all Roma (including Mischlinge – mixed race), as well as those people who "travel around in a Gypsy fashion" over the age of six. Although the Nazis believed that the Roma had originally been Aryan, over time, the Nazis said, they became mixed-race and so were classified as "non-Aryan" and of an "alien race".

Loss of citizenship
The Nuremberg race laws passed on 15 September 1935. The first Nuremberg Law, the "Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor", forbade marriage and extramarital intercourse between Jews and Germans. The second Nuremberg law, "The Reich Citizenship Law", stripped Jews of their German citizenship. On 26 November 1935, Germany expanded the Nuremberg laws to also apply to the Roma. Romani, like Jews, lost their right to vote on 7 March 1936.

Persecution and genocide

The Third Reich's government began persecuting the Romani as early as 1936 when they started to transfer the people to municipal internment camps on the outskirts of cities, a prelude to their deportation to concentration camps. A December 1937 decree on "crime prevention" provided the pretext for major roundups of Roma. Nine representatives of the Romani community in Germany were asked to compile lists of "pure-blooded" Romanis to be saved from deportation. However, the Germans often ignored these lists, and some individuals identified on them were still sent to concentration camps. Notable internment and concentration camps include Dachau, Dieselstrasse, Marzahn (which evolved from a municipal internment camp) and Vennhausen.

Initially, the Romani were herded into so-called ghettos, including the Warsaw Ghetto (April–June 1942), where they formed a distinct class in relation to the Jews. Ghetto diarist Emmanuel Ringelblum speculated that Romani were sent to the Warsaw Ghetto because the Germans wanted:"... to toss into the Ghetto everything that is characteristically dirty, shabby, bizarre, of which one ought to be frightened, and which anyway has to be destroyed."

Initially, there was disagreement within the Nazi circles about how to solve the "Gypsy Question". In late 1939 and early 1940, Hans Frank, the General Governor of occupied Poland, refused to accept the 30,000 German and Austrian Roma which were to be deported to his territory. Heinrich Himmler "lobbied to save a handful of pure-blooded Roma", whom he believed to be an ancient Aryan people for his "ethnic reservation", but was opposed by Martin Bormann, who favored deportation for all Roma. The debate ended in 1942 when Himmler signed the order to begin the mass deportations of Roma to Auschwitz concentration camp. During Operation Reinhard (1941–1943), an undetermined number of Roma were killed in the extermination camps, such as Treblinka.

The Nazi persecution of Roma was not regionally consistent. In France, between 3,000 and 6,000 Roma were deported to German concentration camps as Dachau, Ravensbrück, Buchenwald, and other camps. Further east, in the Balkan states and the Soviet Union, the Einsatzgruppen, mobile killing squads, travelled from village to village massacring the inhabitants where they lived and typically leaving few to no records of the number of Roma killed in this way. In a few cases, significant documentary evidence of mass murder was generated. Timothy Snyder notes that in the Soviet Union alone there were 8,000 documented cases of Roma murdered by the Einsatzgruppen in their sweep east.

In return for immunity from prosecution for war crimes, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski stated at the Einsatzgruppen Trial that "the principal task of the Einsatzgruppen of the S.D. was the annihilation of the Jews, Gypsies, and Political commissars". Roma in the Slovak Republic were killed by local collaborating auxiliaries. Notably, in Denmark and Greece, local populations did not participate in the hunt for Roma as they did elsewhere. Bulgaria and Finland, although allies of Germany, did not cooperate with the Porajmos, just as they did not cooperate with the anti-Jewish Shoah.

On 16 December 1942, Himmler ordered that the Romani candidates for extermination should be transferred from ghettos to the extermination facilities of Auschwitz-Birkenau. On 15 November 1943, Himmler ordered that Romani and "part-Romanies" were to be put "on the same level as Jews and placed in concentration camps". The camp authorities housed Roma in a special compound that was called the "Gypsy family camp". Some 23,000 Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri were deported to Auschwitz altogether. In concentration camps such as Auschwitz, Roma wore brown or black triangular patches, the symbol for "asocials", or green ones, the symbol for professional criminals, and less frequently the letter "Z" (meaning Zigeuner, German word for gypsy).

Sybil Milton, a scholar of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, has speculated that Hitler was involved in the decision to deport all Romani to Auschwitz, as Himmler gave the order six days after meeting with Hitler. For that meeting, Himmler had prepared a report on the subject Führer: Aufstellung wer sind Zigeuner. On some occasions, the Roma attempted to resist the Nazis' extermination. In May 1944 at Auschwitz, SS guards tried to liquidate the Gypsy Family Camp and were "met with unexpected resistance". When ordered to come out, they refused, having been warned and arming themselves with crude weapons: iron pipes, shovels and other tools. The SS chose not to confront the Roma directly and withdrew for several months. After transferring as many as 3,000 Roma who were capable of forced labor to Auschwitz I and other concentration camps, the SS moved against the remaining 2,898 inmates on 2 August. The SS murdered nearly all of the remaining inmates, most of them ill, elderly men, women and children, in the gas chambers of Birkenau. At least 19,000 of the 23,000 Roma sent to Auschwitz were murdered there.

The Society for Threatened Peoples estimates the Romani deaths at 277,100. Martin Gilbert estimates that a total of more than 220,000 of the 700,000 Romani in Europe were murdered, including 15,000 (mainly from the Soviet Union) in Mauthausen in January–May 1945. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum cites scholars who estimate the number of Sinti and Roma murdered as between 220,000 and 500,000. Sybil Milton estimated the number of lives lost as "something between a half-million and a million-and-a-half".

Persecution in other Axis and occupied countries
The governments of some Nazi German allies, namely Slovakia, Finland, Italy, Vichy France, Hungary, and Romania, also contributed to the Nazi plan to exterminate the Romani, but most of the Romani who resided in these countries survived, unlike those Romani who resided in Ustaše Croatia or those Romani who resided in areas which were directly ruled by Nazi Germany (such as occupied Poland). The Hungarian Arrow Cross government deported between 28,000 and 33,000 Romani out of a population that was estimated to be between 70,000 and 100,000.

Independent State of Croatia
The Romani people were also persecuted by the puppet regimes that cooperated with the Third Reich during the war, especially by the notorious Ustaše regime in the Independent State of Croatia. Tens of thousands of Romani people were killed in the Jasenovac concentration camp, along with Serbs, Jews, and anti-fascist Muslims and Croats. Yad Vashem estimates that the Porajmos was most intense in Yugoslavia, where around 90,000 Romani were killed. The Ustaše government virtually annihilated the country's Romani population, killing an estimated 25,000 and also deporting around 26,000.

In May 1942, an Ustaše order was issued, according to it, the deportation of Muslim Roma who were residing in Bosnia and Herzegovina should stop.

On April 24, 1945, Ustaše soldiers brutally murdered between 43 and 47 Sinti and Roma members of a traveling circus named "Braća Winter" as they temporarily settled in Kraj Donji on their way to Slovenia. The atrocity is known as the Hrastina Massacre and is perhaps the last mass murder of Sinti and Roma in Europe during World War II. In 1977, a statue was erected in the local cemetery, Marija Gorica, to honor the victims.

Serbia
In the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia, the German occupiers and the Serbian collaborationist puppet government Government of National Salvation killed thousands of Romani in the Banjica concentration camp, Crveni Krst concentration camp and Topovske Šupe concentration camp along with Jews. In August 1942, Harald Turner reported to his superiors that "Serbia is the only country in which the Jewish question and the Gypsy question have been solved."

Serbian Romani were parties to the unsuccessful class action suit against the Vatican Bank and others in the U.S. federal court in which they sought the return of wartime loot.

Romania
The Romanian government of Ion Antonescu did not systematically annihilate Roma who resided on its territory. Some resident Roma were deported to occupied Transnistria. Of the estimated 25,000 Romani inmates of these camps, around 11,000 (44%, or almost half) died. (See also the research of Michelle Kelso, presented in her film, Hidden Sorrows, based upon research amongst the survivors and in archives.)

Italy
In Fascist Italy, as well as in Slovenia and Montenegro, territories which were under Italian occupation, the majority of the Roma were forcibly rounded up and incarcerated in concentration camps, but generally, they were relatively well treated, especially in contrast to the Roma who resided in the parts of Europe which were occupied by Nazi Germany. Many of them were deported to Sardinia, with much of them being given Italian identity cards that put them out of reach of extermination by the Nazis and the Ustaše. As a result, the vast majority of the Roma who resided in Italy and its occupied territories managed to survive the war.

Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia
In the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Romani internees were sent to the Lety and Hodonín concentration camps before they were transferred to Auschwitz-Birkenau for mass murder – by poison gas. What makes the Lety camp unique is the fact that it was staffed by Czech guards, who could be even more brutal than the Germans, as testified to in Paul Polansky's book Black Silence. The genocide was so thorough, that the vast majority of Romani who currently reside in the Czech Republic are actually the descendants of migrants who moved from Slovakia to Czechoslovakia during the post-war years.

France
Between 16,000 and 18,000 Romani from Nazi-occupied France were killed in German camps.

Denmark
The small Romani population in Denmark was not subjected to mass killings by the Nazi occupiers; instead, it was simply classified as "asocial". Angus Fraser attributes this to "doubts over ethnic demarcations within the travelling population".

Greece
The Romanis of Greece were taken hostage and prepared for deportation to Auschwitz, but they were saved by appeals from the Archbishop of Athens and the Greek Prime Minister.

Norway
In 1934, 68 Romani, most of them Norwegian citizens, were denied entry into Norway, and they were also denied transit through Sweden and Denmark when they wanted to leave Germany. In the winter of 1943–1944, 66 members of the Josef, Karoli, and Modis families were interned in Belgium and deported to the gypsy department in Auschwitz. Only four members of this group survived.

Crimea
In Crimea, the Muslim Roma were protected by the Crimean Tatars from assassination. However, it later served Stalin to deport the Crimean Muslim Romani along with the Crimean Tatars to Siberia, since they were registered as Tatars.

Estimated number of victims
The following figures are from The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's online encyclopedia of the Holocaust.

However, new findings and documents uncovered by research experts revealed that the Roma death toll was at least about 200,000 to 500,000 of the 1 or 2 million Roma in Europe, although there are numerous experts and scholars who give much higher number of Romani deaths, such as Ian Hancock, director of the Romani Archives and Documentation Center at the University of Texas at Austin, in his findings discovered that almost the entire Romani population was killed in Croatia, Estonia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. Rudolph Rummel, the late professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii who spent his career assembling data on collective violence by governments toward their people (for which he coined the term democide), estimated that, in total, 258,000 were killed by the Nazi regime in Europe, 36,000 in Romania under Ion Antonescu and 27,000 in Ustaše-controlled Croatia.

In a 2010 publication, Ian Hancock stated that he agrees with the view that the number of Romanies killed has been underestimated as a result of being grouped with others in Nazi records under headings such as "remainder to be liquidated", "hangers-on", and "partisans". He notes recent evidence such as the previously obscure Lety concentration camp in the Czech Republic and Ackovic's revised estimates of Romani killed by the Ustaše as high as 80,000–100,000. These numbers suggest that previous estimates have been grossly underrepresented.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has estimated that 800,000 Roma people were killed through Nazi actions.

Medical experiments
Another distinctive feature of both the Porajmos and the Holocaust was the extensive use of human subjects in medical experiments. The most notorious of these physicians was Josef Mengele, who worked in the Auschwitz concentration camp. His experiments included placing subjects in pressure chambers, testing drugs on them, freezing them, attempting to change their eye color by injecting chemicals into children's eyes and performing various amputations and other brutal surgeries. The full extent of his work will never be known because the truckload of records which he sent to Otmar von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute was destroyed by von Verschuer. Mengele's own journals, consisting of some 3,300 pages, are likely never to be published. Subjects who survived Mengele's experiments were almost always murdered and dissected shortly afterwards. One Roma survivor of medical experimentation was Margarethe Kraus.

Mengele seemed particularly keen on working with Romani children. He brought them sweets and toys and personally took them to the gas chamber. They called him "Onkel Mengele". Vera Alexander was a Jewish inmate at Auschwitz who looked after 50 sets of Romani twins:

"I remember one set of twins in particular: Guido and Ina, aged about four. One day, Mengele took them away. When they returned, they were in a terrible state: they had been sewn together, back to back, like Siamese twins. Their wounds were infected and oozing pus. They screamed day and night. Then their parents—I remember the mother's name was Stella—managed to get some morphine and they killed the children in order to end their suffering."

Recognition and remembrance
The German government paid war reparations to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, but not to the Romani. There were "never any consultations at Nuremberg or any other international conference as to whether the Sinti and Roma were entitled like the Jews to reparations." The Interior Ministry of Wuerttemberg argued that "Gypsies [were] persecuted under the Nazis not for any racial reason but because of an asocial and criminal record". When on trial for his leadership of Einsatzgruppen in the USSR, Otto Ohlendorf cited the massacres of Roma people during the Thirty Years War as a historical precedent.

The European Roma Rights Centre in 2017 gave more details of the chronology of recognition and reparations:

"After World War II Roma were also excluded from the right to restitution, because Federal German authorities denied that Roma were persecued due to racist reasons. After a small step in this direction in 1963, restitutions became possible in small amounts only in 1979, when the West German Federal Parliament declared that the Nazi persecution of Roma was based on racial grounds and Roma survivors were allowed to claim for restitution in a form of a onetime payment. The official acceptance of the Porajmos as genocide by the Federal Republic of Germany followed only in 1982 with a speech by Chancelor Helmut Schmidt. In August 2016, an agreement between the German Ministry for Finance and the Foreign Ministry of the Czech Republic decided on compensation for survivors of the Porajmos in the Czech Republic. This agreement, which will give 2,500 EUR to each of the handful of survivors, was greeted as a symbolic acknowledgment, but also criticised for its delay and the low amount awarded. However, this agreement has already led to renewed claims from Romani victims from the former Yugoslavia and other regions of 'romocide'."

In the historiography of East Germany (GDR), the persecution of Sinti and Roma under National Socialism was largely taboo. The German historian Anne-Kathleen Tillack-Graf states that in the GDR, Sinti and Roma were not mentioned as concentration camp prisoners during the official commemorations of the liberation at the three national memorial sites Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, and Ravensbrück, just like homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and asocial detainees. West Germany recognised the genocide of the Roma in 1982, and since then the Porajmos has been increasingly recognized as a genocide committed simultaneously with the Shoah. The American historian Sybil Milton wrote several articles arguing that the Porajmos deserved recognition as part of the Holocaust. In Switzerland, a committee of experts investigated the policy of the Swiss government during the Porajmos.

Nico Fortuna, a sociologist and Roma activist, explained the distinction between Jewish collective memory of the Holocaust and the Roma experience: "There is a difference between the Jewish and Roma deportees ... The Jews were shocked and can remember the year, date and time it happened. The Roma shrugged it off. They said, 'Of course I was deported. I'm Roma; these things happen to a Roma.' The Roma mentality is different from the Jewish mentality. For example, a Roma came to me and asked, 'Why do you care so much about these deportations? Your family was not deported.' I went, 'I care as a Roma' and the guy said back, 'I do not care because my family were brave, proud Roma that were not deported.'

For the Jews it was total and everyone knew this—from bankers to pawnbrokers. For the Roma it was selective and not comprehensive. The Roma were only exterminated in a few parts of Europe such as Poland, the Netherlands, Germany and France. In Romania and much of the Balkans, only nomadic Roma and social outcast Roma were deported. This matters and influences the Roma mentality."

Ian Hancock has also observed a reluctance among Roma to acknowledge their victimization by the Third Reich. The Roma "are traditionally not disposed to keeping alive the terrible memories from their history—nostalgia is a luxury for others". The effects of the illiteracy, the lack of social institutions, and the rampant discrimination faced by Roma in Europe today have produced a people who, according to Fortuna, lack a "national consciousness ... and historical memory of the Holocaust because there is no Roma elite."

Acts of commemoration

The first memorial which commemorates victims of the Romani Holocaust was erected on 8 May 1956, in the Polish village of Szczurowa commemorating the Szczurowa massacre. Since 1996, a Gypsy Caravan Memorial has been traveling among the main remembrance sites in Poland, from Tarnów via Auschwitz, Szczurowa and Borzęcin Dolny, gathering the Romani and well-wishers in the remembrance of the Porajmos. Several museums dedicate a part of their permanent exhibition to documenting that history, such as the Museum of Romani Culture in Czech Republic and the Ethnographic Museum in Tarnów in Poland. Some political organisations have tried to block the installation of Romani memorials near former concentration camps, as shown by the debate over Lety and Hodonin in the Czech Republic.

On 23 October 2007, President Traian Băsescu publicly apologized for his nation's role in the Porajmos, the first time a Romanian leader has done so. He called for the Porajmos to be taught in schools, stating that, "We must tell our children that six decades ago children like them were sent by the Romanian state to die of hunger and cold". Part of his apology was expressed in the Romani language. Băsescu awarded three Porajmos survivors with an Order for Faithful Services. Before recognizing Romania's role in the Porajmos, Traian Băsescu was widely quoted after an incident on 19 May 2007, in which he insulted a journalist by calling her a "stinky gypsy". The president subsequently apologized.

On 27 January 2011, Zoni Weisz became the first Roma guest of honour at Germany's official Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony. Dutch-born Weisz escaped death during a Nazi round-up when a policeman allowed him to escape. Nazi injustices against the Roma were recalled at the ceremony, including that directed at Sinto boxer Johann Trollmann.

In July 2011, the Polish Parliament passed a resolution for the official recognition of 2 August as a day of commemoration of the genocide.

On 5 May 2012, the world premiere of the Requiem for Auschwitz, by composer Roger Moreno Rathgeb, was performed at the Nieuwe Kerk in Amsterdam by The Roma and Sinti Philharmoniker directed by Riccardo M Sahiti. The Philharmoniker is a pan-European orchestra of Roma and Sinto musicians generally employed by other classical orchestras; it is focused on the contribution of Roma culture to classical music. Dutch-Swiss Sinto Moreno Rathgeb wrote his requiem for all victims of Auschwitz and Nazi terror. The occasion of the premiere was coupled to a conference, Roma between Past and Future. The requiem has since been performed in Tilburg, Prague, Budapest, Frankfurt, Kraków, and Berlin.

On 24 October 2012, the Memorial to the Sinti and Roma Victims of National Socialism was unveiled in Berlin. Since 2010, ternYpe – International Roma Youth Network has organized a commemoration week called "Dikh he na bister" (look and don't forget) about 2 August in Kraków and Auschwitz-Birkenau. In 2014 they organised the largest Youth Commemoration Ceremony in history, attracting more than 1000 young Roma and non-Roma from 25 countries. This initiative of ternYpe Network was held under the European Parliament's High Patronage granted by President Martin Schulz.

In popular culture

 * In the 2011 documentary film, A People Uncounted: The Untold Story of the Roma, filmmaker Aaron Yeger chronicles the rich, yet difficult history of the Romani people, from ancient times to the Romani genocide which was perpetrated by the Nazis during WWII, and then, it chronicles the history of the Romani people from the end of World War II to the present day. Romani Holocaust survivors share their raw, authentic stories of life in the concentration camps, providing first-hand accounts of this minority group's experience, a subject which the public does not know about.
 * In 2009, Tony Gatlif, a French Romani film director, directed the film Korkoro, which portrays the Romani Taloche's escape from the Nazis, with help from a French notary, Justes, and his difficulty in trying to lead a sedentary life. The film's other main character, Mademoiselle Lise Lundi, is inspired by Yvette Lundy, a teacher who worked in Gionges and was active in the French Resistance.
 * The 1988 Polish film, And the Violins Stopped Playing, also has the Porajmos as its subject. It was criticized for showing the killing of Roma as a method of removing witnesses of the killing of Jews.
 * A scene in the French-language film Train de Vie (Train of Life), directed by Radu Mihaileanu, depicts a group of Romani singing and dancing with Jews at a stop en route to a concentration camp.
 * In the graphic X-Men novel The Magneto Testament, Max Eisenhardt, who would later become Magneto, has a crush on a Romani girl who is named Magda. He later meets her again in Auschwitz, where she is in the Gypsy Camp and together, they plan their escape. The Porajmos is described in detail.
 * In 2019, Roz Mortimer directed The Deathless Woman, a 'hybrid-documentary' film which is both a ghost story and a record of first person testimonies about historical crimes which were committed against the Roma during WWII (and contemporary crimes). The ghostly narrator, voiced in Romani by Iveta Kokyová, questions the absence of her history in archives and museums.

Literature
Several survivors of the Romani holocaust wrote about their experiences. They include: Philomena Franz, Otto Rosenberg, Ceija Stojka, Walter Winter, Alfred Lessing, and others. The first of these works appeared in the 1980s as silence over the impact of the holocaust on Romani communities began to be discussed.

title: Romani Holocaust


text:
User talk:Mav/archive 7

User talk:Maveric149 archive 7 (December, 2002)
Previous, Next

re: headings for see also (on Encyclopedia) -- Apparently, you've never followed me around the 'pedia before, mav. :) I've been giving see also its own sub-heading since I first became a Wikipedian. I checked the Manual of Style and Guide to Layout, but neither mentions see also style. I have some arguments for using a sub-headings; maybe we should discuss the issue at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. After you, good sir! -- Stephen Gilbert 12:38 Dec 1, 2002 (UTC)

 * I will have to do that. :-) But alas that will have to be later. BTW I have been doing the exact opposite since I became a Wikipedian. If you are going to have a heading then ==Related Articles== would be best. "See alsos" are usually used as a queue for topics that should be discussed in the article but aren't yet. --mav

You probably saw this on Recent Changes already, but could you take a look at Pansy and check the ITIS reference? I know there's a way to make it link more precisely, but there are several varieties of the plant & I don't know how to do it. Thanks, --KQ 07:03 Dec 2, 2002 (UTC)

 * Done. Beautiful picture BTW. :) --mav
 * Well thank you.
 * Seems that pansies have about a billion species.
 * I like putting in the pictures, but then I don't know much about the tree of life part of it so I feel out of my league. Anyway, thanks (for the compliment and the link).  :-)  --KQ

Hey. I just noticed that when you search for a term it misses it if it is included in a larger word. I searched for "aerial" and it missed "aerials". Is this by design to keep a search for "man" from throwing up "Manhattan" for example? Either way, I think the search engine should at least be able to find "aerials" when I ask for "aerial". :) --Dante Alighieri 23:11 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

 * Hm. I'm not a developer so I don't know. Is "aerials" an inherently plural term? We try to keep things in the singular here whenever possible. --mav

 * MySQL's fulltext search works only on whole words. --Brion 23:31 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

 * There is a way to search for "port" in "transportation", etc. but you get a lot of extra results. What I'd like is to search for X or Y or Z -- rather than X and Y and Z. Maybe someone on the Wikitech-l knows... --Ed Poor

 * Stick "or" between the search terms. ie, "X or Y or Z". --Brion 23:31 Dec 3, 2002 (UTC)

Just popping in to say hello... Hello! --BL

 * Howdy! --mav

Hey, mav, Messina is a disambiguation page. --Dante Alighieri 01:01 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I know. I fixed the link right after I made it. --mav

Good job! Also, my sources indicate that the Gauls invaded Italy in 390, but did not sack Rome until 387. --Dante Alighieri 01:19 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

 * Well my source is The Timetables of History by Bernard Grun. It wouldn't be the first time this source was wrong but the Timetables also state that Rome was rebuilt in 387 BC.... --mav

Ick... I'm getting different dates at different sources... :( I'll sort this out and get back to you. :( --Dante Alighieri 01:35 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

Mav, what is the sandbox, and what is that stuff in it? Is it vandalism or not?

Arno.

 * The sandbox is a public resource for Wikipedians to experiment in. It is therefore hard for anybody to actually vandalize the sandbox (unless they type vulgarities or link to obscene photos). --mav

Hi, Mav. Thanks for the welcome. Hope you don't mind my style. I tend to respond in like kind to what I take as face value. Looks like you've made some wonderful contributions. Cheers to you. BoNoMoJo

 * Nah, no problem at all. Thanks for the compliment and I look forward to working with you in the future. :) --mav

I will be leaving myself in a few minutes, but I think .194 got the hint finally. --Uncle Ed

 * Yep. I think SoftSecurity won the day here. --mav

When you get a chance could you take a look at Talk:Brussels. There's a bit of a naming problen there. Most small Belgian communities do not have English name. In the bilingual immediate area of Brussels many of these have both a French and Flemish name. User:Dhum Dhum has chosen to list these in the format Flemish name / French name. This is fine from a NPOV standpoint but the "/" in the name looks ugly. I suggested one possible solution, but am not completely satisfied with it myself. I would especially like to avoid walking into a hornets' nest over Belgian linguistic sensitivities. Other opinions would be welcome on that talk page. Eclecticology 08:52 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

 * Yuk! / titles. That ain't good at all. I'll look into this tomorrow. I'm off to bed now. --mav

Hey mav, I was browsing around and noticed the troubles in Talk:Asia Carrera. What exactly is wiki policy on that filmography? I mean, I suppose it IS information and related to the topic of the article. --Dante Alighieri 12:24 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

 * I'm no expert in heterosexual porn, but I'm pretty sure that the "filmography" inserted is bogus. Compare: --mav

 * I'm no expert in ANY kind of porn, either. :) I did check at Asia Carrera's website, and she lists 250+ movies as well as references several (at least 50) compilations... perhaps the filmography listed those? See . --Dante

 * LOL - I'm at work right now so I can't visit p0rn websites. 250 is a bit much for us to list and since neither you nor I know just what might be her "best" work I think that an external link to her own extensive filmography would be best. --mav

 * Hehe, I just meant that maybe the user wasn't vandalizing.. he might have been trying to catalog Ms. Carrera's fine work. :) --Dante Alighieri 22:40 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

See my comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities

Isn't flouride used in dental products? Vera Cruz 20:33 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

 * In the form of sodium fluoride, yes. --mav

And isn't it POV to say that something is dangerous, when the government says it's safe? Vera Cruz 20:39 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

 * Yep. Especially when it is stated as a fact. --mav

I wish I could afford one of these for you for your next editing binge, mav. ;-) --KQ

 * Sweeet! :-) --mav

My only reason for moving a couple of fluoride points was, as you guessed, to stop an edit war. If the battle has ceased, then let's carry on as usual. Hm, I see Axelboldt put those points back and added some more. Good! --Uncle Ed

- Mav, not being very much into geography, Id definitely say Scandinavian mountain chain since the word scandinavia covers the whole peninsula (also the Norwegian part) the website http://www.fjallen.nu/fakta/index_en.htm indicating the same. Dan Koehl 05:16 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

 * OK. Thank you for the information. I will move the article now. --mav

I just noticed a change at William Caxton where someone hard coded an age. It made me wonder if anyone ever thought of having some sort of way for Wikipedia to have something like {TODAYS_DATE} and so forth that could be used to dynamically update ages and so forth like {{TODAYS_YEAR} - 1980} would be how old I am. Of course there would be other uses a bit more complicated than this. I'm probably just crazy and there are many more important things to do with the software. -- RM

 * There is already 2024 = 2024. Your idea does sound interesting though and should be easy to code. But in general, we try to avoid complex stuff like that - esp. since finding the age of somebody requires only a simple subtraction operation in the head of the reader. Are you signed-up to Wikitech-l? --mav

 * No, but I guess I shall sign up for it, if not just to see what everyone else thinks. But you're right, you could add a basic programming language of sorts to Wikipedia, but that would not be very friendly or simple.  I think we can cope without it.  On the otherhand, a better way to make tables would be a godsend.  HTML tables are just a pain. -- RM

 * Agreed. I have to admit that I am personally responsible for creating the first table-based WikiProject (Elements) which ended up inspiring several others (Countries, Tree of Life, Novels, Animals, Timelines...). The trouble with HTML tables is that they are so dang useful to readers but are a nightmare for mark-up phobic contributors (not too purty or easy to work with for the rest of us either). There has already been a good deal of talk about this on the mailing lists and on meta. See Wiki markup tables. --mav

Thanks for deleting my old 'to do' list page quercus robur 23:58 Dec 11, 2002 (UTC)

 * Not a problem. --mav

Hey Mav: Whats up? Thanks for the niece words you said about me and my articles, I loved your words! well, reality is that Ive learned a lot from you ad other good wiki writers. My other secrets are: having 24 hours and seven days of nothing to do, LOL, researching and, in the boxing article cases, having a family that talks boxing 24 hours a day. I mean, believe me, when I was 3, I knew more about Roberto Duran and Muhammad Ali than I knew about Big Bird..LOL... I love writing about things that interest me. For example, Disney Channel shows, I imagine Im the only 30 year old in the world who enjoys Lizzie McGuire and Sister Sister..LOL not to mention Im a little bit out of the range of the target audience of those shows...I guess thats something else that helps me come back every night...lol

Well, Im gonna write an article on John Paxson, the guy who broke my heart when he sank that three pointer for the Chicago Bulls against the Phoenix Suns in te 1993 NBA Finals, so Im gonna go. I wanted to apologize for not thanking you earlier. When I came this morning the page wasn't working.

Once again, Thanks, and God bless you!! Hope to read from you and some new articles of yours soon1!

Sincerely yours, your wiki friend, AntonioMartin

Bits at Talk:Pansy for you, mav. ... And why did you start on January 1, 2002? You weren't out partying? Huh, neither was I. ;-)  --KQ

 * That was the night before. It's sad, but my birthday is on the 31st so I'm always upstaged by the new years thing. So I just do the new years party thing with my friends who like to put candles in the pizza for me and give me gag gifts. --mav

mav, can't you do anything about 205.188.209.39 and his ilk? I'm tired of reverting his/her/their nonsense. -- Zoe
 * No worries, Zoe. That one's been blocked. I'll be watching for a while and blocking every IP he can come up with. -- Stephen Gilbert 03:17 Dec 15, 2002 (UTC)

Long ago in the mists of time, towards the beginning of Wikipedia, someone suggested that Jimbo install a "reach out and slap someone" button. --KQ

 * LOL I would love that feature! My partner seems eager to databomb the mo fo but I told him that that wouldn't be cool since so many people use the IPs. --mav

 * Not people, mav. AOL users. They would only use your pity against you. ;) --Brion

 * Ouch! Yes the masses are unwashed and vermin live amongst them. --mav

- Can you, or someone, delete the following that grate on my "Search" nerves:

PariS Julliette Binoche

Yes for CamelCase Paris (since there is no valid history) but no for the double "l" Juliette Binoche (since this is a valid mispelling). --mav

Thanks....DW - Dear Mav: Thanks for helping me about the lock thing. AndI need to apologize for posting my message asking for your help on your user page. I was so shocked and outraged about the thing that I didnt realize I was posting it on the wrong page.

Sorry about that

Sincerely yours your wiki friend AntonioMartin

 * No problem. If I didn't want people to edit my user page I would protect it. :-) I'm sorry that you thought the ban was directed at you personally. We do need a better blocked IP message to say something like "Somebody using IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx was blocked {insert admin reason} at {time of block}. Many people may also use this IP address. If you happen to share this IP with the vandal or otherwise think this block is in error, then please contact the Administrator who performed the block." "Administrator" here would be an 'email this user' link for the Admin that did the block. How were you able to edit my user page if you had an IP block? --mav

Hello maveric- why did you move rust iron oxide back to rust? I was just about to create a disambig. page between rust (iron oxide) & rust (fungal disease)

 * Answer on talk:rust. --mav

 * I've replied on the rust talk page- I don't want to get into an edit war or anything but I do think that a disambig page is warranted. provided I'm not going to cause any sort of ill feeling i'll go ahead and create such a page, including taking responsibilty for moving the links (there wern't too many when I looked) quercus robur

Thank you for deleting PariS. HOWEVER: What about Julliette? Please delete this page and others that are redirected because of spelling errors. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Unknowing visitors will (because, believe it or not, they are not all intellects like certain who think they are at this site) think that this FRENCH name is just a spelling variation....DW

 * See Policy on permanent deletion of pages point 4. I've already nominally violated point 7, but the historical content of PariS was so bad that I don't think anybody ever bookmarked it. --mav

Mav, please see updates on the Konqueror situation at wiktionary:User talk:Eclecticology. --Brion 00:30 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)

 * Done. --mav

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ;-) --KQ

 * I try not to smell my cat's breath because she likes to, uh, maintain, uh.. a high degree of feminine feline hygiene. --mav
 * LOL. Well, that was from the Simpsons.  :-)  Wry comment on a recent article.  But, uh, yeh.  I don't like dogs for a similar reason; and they're more inclined to want to lick your face and/or hands.  --KQ

 * It is disgusting what we let our pets do to us. One good thing about having a dog and a cat is that the dog keeps the litter box clean. If you know what I mean. ;-) --mav

here's a piece on a potentially promising shift in publishing in scientific journals. http://www.librarian.net if you need a login. :-) cheers,  --KQ
 * NYT doesn't like my browser (I think I blocked the NYT cookie a while back). Is this about open content publishing? I've read about that on Slashdot and I think it is most cool. --mav
 * It is. Two new scientific journals which will put their texts immediately into the public domain. One of them is on biology; the other is on medicine. And yes, it's an idea only a few centuries overdue. :-) --KQ

 * Sweet! Do you have their URLs? Any good journal article will have background text in them that explains the current understanding of a subject before going into the new research. We could use that! --mav
 * I don't think they've started yet. Here's the page about the journals, who/what/why etc. ... Ah, "expect to publish our first issues in the second half of 2003," they say.  --KQ

I saved a stub on JFK Jr while you were deleting the original. If you think it's better off deleted, feel free. --rbrwr
 * It looks good to me. Thanks for doing the work. :) --mav

Same thing here, but with Battle of Kosovo instead, although I can't understand why you deleted the original. If it is a figment of 24.225.10.157's imagination, how come I can find so many references to it on the net?? --Gabbe

 * Look at . When the majority of edits made by a single person are vandalism then it is hard to trust anythig they write. I will, however, restore the old version since, as you say, that article seems OK. --mav

Mav: somebody has taken my comments to "Karl" on Dan Keshet's talk page and moved them to the Holocaust page, signing my name, creating the impression that I am a holocaust denier. I've made an entry on the Vandalism_in_progress page, and contacted the anonymous user's ISP, Sentex.net in Canada. Is it possible to check the server logs and find out if any registered users have logged in from the IP block (64.7.128.0 - 64.7.159.255) on December 18 between, say, 8:00-10:00 UTC? Or any other information which would help identify this person? Thanks! --Len

 * Hm. That's not very nice of that person to do that to you. I know it is possible to find out the IP of a logged-in user since this has been used to ban bad users in the past. However, this information is not directly logged with user IPs so it is difficult for the developers to find it even when they already know what the user name is. So it would be possible to find out this information but it won't be easy and might require manually searching all 6,000+ user accounts. You should ask an actual developer about this. I know Brion has searched a user account for his IP in order to ban a logged-in user before. --mav

 * Judging by earlier edits coming from 64.7.144.39 in the same IP range with the same user agent string, it appears to be Karl. --Brion 22:39 Dec 18, 2002 (UTC)

 * Thanks for that, Brion. Is it possible for you to help me communicate with him and talk this out? To avoid anyone mailbombing me or Karl, could you email his address to my address? If we can't reach an understanding, I will be recommending that his ISP terminate his account and forward the information to the authorities; Canada has pretty strict laws about hate speech. Thanks! (Note: my spam-prevention system will ask you to confirm your email. I don't know which address to unblock, so I can't pre-authorize your email. Thanks.) --Len

 * Although we're pretty liberal with IP addresses, we have a much stricter (though implicit) policy about giving out e-mail addresses; I don't think it'd be appropriate for me to hand out someone's e-mail address without an ok from Jimbo or permission from them. Note that you can send him e-mail through the "E-mail this user" link on the sidebar of User:Karl; as the initiator of contact, this will reveal your e-mail address to him, but won't reveal his e-mail address to you unless he chooses to respond. --Brion 03:58 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

 * That's too bad. Sounds like it'll be the police then. Karl: I suggest you write me using the "E-mail this user" feature of Wikipedia. --Len.

Followup: Brion and/or Mav, can we verify that Karl is not being falsely suspected here? For example, are there any other edits performed from within the Sentex.net IP block between the dates of December 10 and December 19? The preliminary response from Sentex.net's abuse people is that impersonating somebody else to post anti-semitic material is consistent with their use policy, so nothing will be done. If it really was Karl, I request that he be banned. --Len

 * I'll go filter the logs again. (Hmm, have you read their AUP? 2(e) and 2(f) sure sound applicable here.) --Brion 22:22 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

 * All Sentex user(s)' edits from December: http://www.wikipedia.org/upload/sentex-edits. I did some spotchecks comparing with the page histories, and don't see any that aren't either logged in as Karl, or occasionally not logged in (anonymous raw IP). The only one not made via Windows XP/IE6.0 was Mathilde Bonaparte, which may have been made by a non-Karl anonymous poster with Windows 2000. --Brion 22:58 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

Ex:
 * 64.7.144.39 - - [14/Dec/2002:17:09:27 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:DanKeshet&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:DanKeshet&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)" <-- this edit is attributed to Karl
 * 64.7.145.36 - - [18/Dec/2002:13:59:49 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
 * 64.7.145.36 - - [18/Dec/2002:14:02:49 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Holocaust&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
 * 64.7.145.36 - - [18/Dec/2002:14:12:20 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"
 * 64.7.145.36 - - [18/Dec/2002:14:14:11 +0000] "POST /w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=submit HTTP/1.1" 302 5 "http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Holocaust&action=edit" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)"

Mav:The new pages already existed, so the rename page facility didn't permit the easy route. Stephen C. Carlson 03:15 Dec 19, 2002 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. But in the future you can ask an Admin to delete the redirect page in order to allow for a move (place it on votes for deletion). Otherwise the contributions of everyboy else on that article are hidden. --mav

Mav, are you the one running queries like this:

 * SELECT user_name, COUNT(*) FROM user, old WHERE user_name=old_user_text GROUP BY user_id ORDER BY user_id DESC LIMIT 20

for your new-users-to-greet list? I caught one running very slowly; you might try instead:

 * SELECT user_name, COUNT(*) FROM user, old WHERE user_id=old_user GROUP BY user_id ORDER BY user_id DESC LIMIT 20

the indexes match up more cleanly that way, and it should run faster. --Brion 07:46 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

 * Yep that was me. All I did was copy from the query page... --mav

Is something like Managing_Urban_America going to be a problem? Vera Cruz 16:52 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

 * It needs some work (but so do many of our articles). See the talk page. --mav

-- Dear Mav: Hi! Thanks for noticing the title thing. I had no idea what could happen if I included the Tm in the title. I will remove it to a new page as soon as my typing device (which as you might have noticed from my last few articles is giving me trouble) stops troubling me and my tyiping.

Thanks and God bless you!!\

Sincerely yours, AntonioMartin

 * Thank you! Yeah those types of special characters shouldn't be in page titles in general since most people don't know how to link to them. --mav

Mav, do you know if it's possible to direct the DNS for wiktionary.org at our server for the meantime? The Wikipedia webserver is 130.94.122.197. --Brion 01:40 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

 * I think that would be a good idea - except I don't how to do that. --mav

 * Try http://home.verio.com/support/ --Brion 08:09 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

 * OK. I'm in. I tried to change the primary DNS to 130.94.122.197 but got this error message "The name server redelegation for wiktionary.org has failed." Is that what you need me to do? --mav

 * Hmm, what we want is for the host that the DNS server points to when asked what 'wiktionary.org' is to be 130.94.122.197. The primary DNS server is what you'd change if you wanted to use DNS servers other than Verio's... I tried to flip through their support section myself, but I have to admit it's really unclear. I think their goal is to take your money and then confuse you so much that you can't actually use any of their services (or figure out how to cancel the automatic bill payment... ;) If you're willing to e-mail me the account info I can see if I can figure it out using the direct approach. (Push all buttons until either it or I submit to fatigue...)  --Brion 09:00 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)   (DISCLAIMER: Wikipedia administrators will never ask you for your account password, but they may ask for access to third-party services, credit cards, and your lunch money.)

 * OK I'll forward the info to you. --mav

 * Great, thanks. I think I've got it configured right in the hideous hideous "Zone editor"; it could take up to 24 hours for the changes to take effect (plus varying propagation time to local DNS servers around the 'net). --Brion 09:16 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

 * Coolness, thanx! What about Jimbo's wiktionary.com? --mav

 * I'll bug them again about setting it up... (Do you have the same problem that I do, that I type W-I-K and can't stop my fingers from going on to I-P-E-D-I-A? It's bugging the crap out of me. ;) --Brion

 * I stop myself at the second i. Hm. I wonder if we shouldn't also have wikitionary.org. Probably not needed. --mav

Hi! thanx for the welcome msg. (you can delete this after reading ...) --zeno

 * You are Welcome! I like to keep everything though. ;) --mav

Hello Maverick149,

Could you please read the email I sent you regarding SINCGARS, its source, etc.

Thank you, --Prefect

 * Response is on talk:SINCGARS --mav

Hm. It doesn't offend me but does the user name Jizzbug offend you? Community standard stuff, blah, blah... --mav

 * No, because I don't know what it means. I may know what the first syllable means by itself, but the word as a whole may have independent meaning and, in any event, it's an e-mail address that gets 250+ hits on Google, so I don't have the impression it was chosen specifically to trash the Wikipedia.  But if you'd like for me to be offended, I'll be happy to consider whatever reasons you want to give me why I should be. -- isis 09:48 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)

 * No. I don't want you to be offended. I was just wondering if you would be (esp. since we have the new user name policy and all). --mav

You've renamed Topology Glossary to Topology glossary. But there are large numbers of redirects to Topology Glossary, and, as I'm sure you realise, redirects to redirects don't work. So could you please fix these redirects, or change the page name back to Topology Glossary (which was a perfectly good name for the glossary - it's not an article about topology glossaries, so the usual naming conventions don't apply). --Zundark 10:58 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)

 * I'll fix it. The only reason why I moved it was to preseve the history after another user did a crude copy/cut/redirect job. --mav

Hi mav,

you just removed 1911 encyc material from Danelaw, saying they claim copyright on this material. Wikipedia is full of 1911 encyc material, and this was always considered OK from a copyright point of view. Do we have a new opinion on this topic? -- JeLuF

 * I should hope that the other eb1911 material we have is from a source that hasn't modified it so that they can claim copyright. I personally think that the 1911encyclopedia.com claim of copyright is bogus since all they did was a find and replace on some arcane words. But my opinion on their claim doesn't negate their claim. Even if it were from a pur public domain source I still would have removed it since it was data dumping (no effort to integrate the text into the pre-existing article). --mav

--- ++mav sorry about pissing in your corn flakes More and better apologies embeddied it textUser:Two16 There is no edit war happening in horoscope: just look at the ratio of my talk:horoscope to horoscope posts. My comments were extensive and thoughtful

Here is an example about your reposting of those paragraphs:

216.129.198.41 I will examine this starting with the third paragraph:

Using an ephemeris and a table of houses an astrologer calculates relative positions of the sun, the moon, and the planets for specific time and place in order to errect a horoscope. This diagram, called a chart  is a stylized map of the heavens. The sun or the earth is placed in the centre with the remaining elements around the outside depending on wheather the ephemeris was heliocentric or geocentric. Different systems of tri-secting arcs produce houses of different size. The calculation of a horoscope is a complex but purely technical skill normally carried out computer software.

This writing is concise. It opens important entries needed to understand astrology. It can be built upon. It And it does an adequte job of NPOV.

In astrology, .... strongly implied by astologer a horoscope is a chart or diagram representing the positions of the planets and other celestial bodies at the time of an event ... compare... with calculates relative positions of the sun, the moon, and the planets for specific time and place in order to errect a horoscope. This diagram, called a chart  is a stylized map of the heavens. In western astrology, the event is most commonly a person's birth...underinformative. True but trite The term horoscope is derived from Greek words meaning, "a look at the hours."...OK but clunky

Believers in astrology consider the construction of a horoscope to be a highly complex and technical skill ... actually it is: differential calculus, logarithms, sexigesimal mathematical notation, corrections of ephemeris data for latitude, longitude, time zone, sidereal time, the tilt of earth's  axis. This sentence makes me imagine Barbie saying "Math Is Hard" hardly npov. Which it is in the 3rd paragraph

and today they usually carry out this task using computer software ... yes! eliminate those tedious exacting calculations ( many in a base 60 numerical system so a calculator will not be helpful)  because the rote mathematic is tedious. Also in the third paragraph Skeptics, however, point out that empirically, there is zero correlation of the kind that astrologers claim exists between the heavens and earthly affairs (see the article on western astrology and external links therein) ... many astologers do not subscribe to this metaphysic; therefore it is a category error. Noble as this attempt to save the innocents might be, it needs to be revamped because it reduces astrology to a monolithic pseudo-science. What ever it is - it certainly is not monolithic.

Thus, there is no objective method that can be used to determine which method of casting a horoscope is correct.....Asking which Technique is the correct one is the pseudoscience equivalant of asking which is correct among  quantum mechanics, reletivity and newtonian mechanics.

and disagreements among practitioners can only be settled by using anecdotal evidence or appeals to authority.....those astrologers must be rubes if they can't find any other way to resovle their differences. NPOV

Practitioners of western and Chinese astrology, for example, do not agree on how to cast horoscopes....the important thing is that they use planetary positions to errect a 2-dimentional representation of the heavens that has meaning to them. They use different techniques, start with different philosophies and have differing emphasis. The phrasing is clunky.

Onward.What i did was wrong. I'm only 4 days old and learning the cultural values I want to uphold. I'm sorry for the troubles I've caused.

Two16 wrote: "read talk :horoscope, read the article, look at the versions before changing. It is not enough to repost the first two paragraph from last version. If won't read any of the things don't edit it."
 * Now why the hell would I have to read an article's talk just to remerge (not revert) some text?

216.If text was rewritten from those 2 paragraph they would be redundant. Synomyn and diction correction are opaque to visual editing from history. Falsehood. Advocacy. non-NPOV. Clarity. and more.

And who are you to lecture me on just what I can and can not do?

216.The answer is wikipedian

Unbelievable. I didn't see anything which was a major duplication when I restored what I saw as a decent introductory paragraph.

216.There was much duplication. You don't still think it was a deccent introductory paragraph, do you?

BTW, both of your deletetions were marked as minor edits which is a banable offense.

216.Sorry for the offence

If I were in as a foul mood as I am now when I saw it I would have followed the letter of policy and blocked your IP.

216.You were posting too many pages too fast to be doing a perfect job on every edit. I was angered by by the repost and that it grew when i couldn't leave a message on your page. I am sorry for leaving you an ungratfuI and graceless message. have only been here for a couple of days but already I know the amount of work you do. The depth, breth and length of your contribution and dedication are inspiring (seeUser:Maveric149)

Eclecticology please do do a rewrite

216.Electicology has already been called in !

the current article is a major mess

216 No, its not. Your foul mood will pass

and all the above talk is sapping people's efforts to write brilliant prose. --mav

216.Too true.Luckily we have some able prose from astoName.

 * I've already left a message for you on your talk page. Thank your for your kind words about my contributions in general. :) --mav

Mav- Thanks for the note on the talk page, I'm glad you approve of my EB imports. I think I'm hitting a good formula, and some of the shorter EB articles seem to make very good Wikipedia entries (the longer ones generally have outdated stuff the needs rewritten with the NPOV in mind). I appreciate the comment, you have made my day :) Smelialichu 13:06 Dec 22, 2002 (UTC)

 * You're welcome - keep up the great work! --mav

--

Hey Mav, is the problem that the nude pic (of Jenna Jameson) is illegal or that it's not under fair use? I checked all the rules on "Upload file" and I didn't see anything wrong with nudity :-)

Well, anyway, thanks for editting, it probably wasn't appropriate anyway. Thanks for editting some of my other stuff too, btw, you made it better.

 * I don't have problems with the nudity so long as it is relevant. For example when we have an article on a famous artwork that was of a nude then we should have a picture of it (like Michelangelo's David). However, if the subject of the article is a person and not the depiction of that person in art then it really isn't relevant to have a nude photo of them. But the main reason why the image was removed is because it is almost certainly covered by a copyright that will be defended by the owner since its use here isn't fair use for the above reason. We might be able to crop the photo just to show her face and maybe provide an external link to her official website (which will have plenty of nude photos of her). --mav

-

The image deletion bug should now be squashed. --Brion 02:06 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

 * Thank you! :-) --mav

Hi. Did User:Prefect send you a mail explaining his possible copyright breaches? Did this cover Fourth Marine Regiment. There's been no response to my question on his talk page or the talk page for the above article. Even after I blanked it and he reinstated it.? Mintguy

 * He didn't include anything in his email that wasn't included at Talk:SINCGARS. On that page he convinced me that the material on the page he copied from was originally from offline public domain sources and was exactly the same. I'm now a bit suspicious. Black the page again and I will protect it so that he is forced to answer your question. --mav

 * Okay Mintguy

As I don't have a scanner and I hadn't saved an offline copy, I rather not even bother with another attempt. Someone else can take a stab at it until I have the will. Thanks, though. --Prefect, USMC (fmr)
 * .S. I's a damn shame I have to go through so much trouble to put down some history into this thing that I was a part of.
 * P.P.S. How about doing something about this jackhole: Cesidio Tallini

 * Already taken care of. --mav

Hi Mav. You moved my concerns about the Chinese/US Human Rights guy to annoying, out of vandalism. Fair enough but I really do think this person needs watching. S/he is now the user 172 (and/or a range of 172.x.x.x IPs) and seems to be doing a LOT of work on wikipedia, some of it of variable quality. Some of it consists of pasting in massive chunks of essays, which may or may not be good; some of it is highly POV, see for example Saddam Hussein and the edit war this caused. OK so it's not vandalism but it is, perhaps, misplaced zeal, or an attempt to impose one POV on the encylopedia, and I think it bears watching. (I am anonymous because I have no stomach for flame wars and prefer to cultivate my own little furrow in peace.) 194.117.133.118 11:16 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

 * I am aware of 172 and have been trying to figure out what he/she is up to. --mav

Uhoh. It says something quite worrying about the state of Wikipedia when users choose to remain as IPs to avoid flame wars :( -- Tarquin 20:44 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Why have you moved the Eisenhower page? Vera Cruz

 * I was about to ask the same question to you. --mav

 * Thats his name. Vera Cruz

 * But most people don't use his middle name -- Tarquin

 * I don't think I've ever heard someone not use, at least, the middle D, if we are going for what he is commonly called, why not move the article to Ike?? Vera Cruz

 * ? And William Jeferson Clinton is the full name of Bill Clinton. And Eva Duarte de Peron is the full name of Eva Peron. We generally don't use full names here. Please read our naming conventions. Ike isn't a name but just a nick name. --mav

I do not know, nor wish to take time to understand, what the difference between an edit and a minor edit may be. First they complain because my edits are too minor and now they complain because my edits are too major... I really don't see how it could be of importance. Vera Cruz

 * Because other people reviewing Recent Changes will skip over your major edits thinking they are in fact minor. There is also a 'hide minor edit' feature for RC and when people aren't careful about correclty marking edits then this feature becomes useless. The deletion or adding of more than a small pargraph without comment can never be considered to be minor. --mav

Hi Mav, thanks for your help with Durham. Regards, Nevilley 09:29 Dec 24, 2002 (UTC)

 * You are welcome! --mav

Please see discussion on London (disambiguation) wrt extra detail on these pages. Thanks. Nevilley 14:52 Dec 24, 2002 (UTC)

 * I took care of it. --mav

Thanks for the links, mav. I'd actually already been using the last two, but not the first one. -- Zoe

 * Ah, your secrete is out. ;) --mav

Good job for editing the ?anti-Gorbi? rant. Quotations from the Washington Times don?t usually belong in an NPOV article!

172

 * No problemo - I hate all kinds of bias. --mav

Hey, mav, I didn't think the things under December 27 were worth having in there, but that's just me, if you like them, go ahead and keep them. -- Zoe

 * My plan is to fill the day pages to the brim and then start making sub-articles (like year in music, year in sport, year in literature...). That said, I don't think the December 27 is anywhere near being too big. That article is not even 4,000 bytes and a good rule of thumb is to start breaking-up articles once they hit 10,000 bytes. So we are still some ways off. --mav

 * Not a prob, it just seemed to have more info in it than most day pages do. -- Zoe

 * All that means is that we have to fix the other pages. :-) --mav

Hi. I need someone with admin powers to sort out a mess I made, for which you can quite rightly call me an idiot. Someone moved Dr. Strangelove to Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb. I decided to move it to the title as listed on IMDB which is Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (note the lower case 'or') Only I accidentally moved the talk page instead, and in trying to correct my mistake I moved the talk page to Talk: Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (note the space after 'Talk:'). So can you please move these pages to where they should be in your opinion and delete the nonsense pages I created. I'm very sorry, I was in a rush before going out. Mintguy 22:57 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

 * Sure. I'll sort it out. Personally I like the simpler name Dr. Strangelove. Is there an ambiguity issue with using this two word title? --mav

 * Probably not, but it's not the title of the film. If we are going to list films they should probably be the same as listed on IMDB (with the possible expection of a few note-worthy foreign films which have been retitled for an English speaking audience). But as I've made a balls up I'm not going to argue the toss over it. Mintguy

 * I don't doubt that. We just prefer common names unless that name presents an ambiguity issue that would result in a naming conflict. --mav

 * Well I'm not going to argue this one, so I've only got one final word. Perhaps Dr. Strangelove the character deserves a page on his own. This is not necessarily my position on the matter. I can't find a precedent for this either, although there might be one. Looking at Spinal Tap I note that This is Spinal Tap redirects to Spinal Tap so there is a precedent for the reverse. Mintguy

 * That is a good engough reason for me to support using the longer title. --mav

Is that the way you wanted it? --mav

 * Yes. Thank you very much. You're a gent. Bye Mintguy

Something you may be able to answer, given your involvement with the elements project. When were the the modern symbols first assigned to the elements? This has come to mind in connection with Te on Wiktionary. Tellurium was named in 1798, but was its symbol assigned then or at a later time? Eclecticology 04:38 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

 * Hm. I don't know either. I do know that Mendeleev used symbols in his first periodic table in 1869. I also know that alchemists used pictographic symbols for many elements. I'll look into this. My gut feeling is that people have been doing this for a very long time all on their own. --mav

---

Hi Mav. Your opinion requested on Talk:Hertz. -- Tarquin 13:27 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

 * K -mav

Your talk page is fairly large... Do you see how History of the Philippines is as pro-US-biased as the commentator alleges? Vera Cruz

 * I'm trying to keep my archives on a month to month basis. The article you mention is incomplete (like most Wikipedia articles) but not inherently flawed. --mav

Do you understand why Atlantium is insisting that it is not a micronation? Vera Cruz

 * I can only guess from reading their intro page is that they don't like the idea of nation-states at all. I guess they take that to an extreme in maintaining that they are not even a micronation. --mav

Perhaps the solution is... Atlantium is a microempire.

 * Micronations are state-like entities that exist primarily or exclusively on the internet. Most are nothing more than a website run by one or two (usually) adolescent males. They can have various motivations, but most are either political/social/economic simulations or exist purely for the entertainment of their founders. They do not have any form of verifiable existence in the real world, they do not interact with people or organisations in the real world, and most never last more than a few months. They are, in short, entirely unrelated to entities like Atlantium. For the record, Atlantium considers itself an unrecognised aspirant microstate.

 * I find the difference between microstate and micronation rather pedantic since technically there is such a thing as a nation-state. Furthermore, Sealand is arguably much more independent than Atlantium, and it has no problem with being considered a micronation. In short, micronation is a term that Atlantium has decided to use to describe microstates which it feels are as undeserving of attention as the United States government feels Atlantium is undedeserving. I find the whole thing rather hypocritical. Vera Cruz

Greetings from Japan! I'm on my way to Korea, where I will spend the next 10 days or so. Please let 'the gang' know that I will thus be off-line through Jan 10th, 2003 :-) --Uncle Ed 08:10 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

 * Roger roger! Have fun. --mav

Thanks for setting up the image in zircon! --chd 22:07 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

 * You are welcome. :) --mav

PS: so easy but i didn't know how to do it! where can i find information about setting up images? --chd

 * Take a look at Boilerplates --mav

mav, please see question to you on my talk page. -- SGBailey 23:16 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

 * Done. --mav

Hi mav news about colaboration between EL and wiki (see my page) Youssefsan

 * Looks interesting. See your page. --mav

Your feedback on Dial has done wonders for me - thanks- kiwiinapanic 23:23 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

 * No problemo. --mav

hi mav, anyway way to stop edit wars in progress? -- User:kt2

 * Well I could protect the page but then only sysops could edit it. So that would be bad. I could ban 172's IP but I'm a pushover when it comes to blocking people (but 172 is testing my nerves). I'll suggest that he should make his own sandbox to play in. --mav

--- Can we end this hostility now? I found out why I was under fire from so many different sources. Zoe has accused me of being a Communist. Initially, I was shocked by poor historical scholarship of many articles pertaining to modern history, mostly Communist history. His charges that I have been propagandizing articles are hurtful.

If you have gotten this impression, I’d like to correct it now.

 * Zoe is a her, not a him and isn't the only person to get the stated impression. --mav

 * Correct it by stopping. I don't know (or care) whether you're a communist; I only know what you're doing--and it certainly is propagandizing. It doesn't really matter whether it's because you're a communist, or because you're a non-communist who just doesn't know what NPOV means. --Len

---

I did not add bias to any articles. I have listed contributions on my page, 172.

Go through the articles.

I have improved every article boundlessly. In fact, I think that's the real source of the resentment. --172

 * Perhaps it also has something to do with your overblown opinion of yourself too. --mav

 * Oy! This is the third page I've found pasted with the same trash by 172! He'd make a good communist, with a pot of glue and a stack of propaganda sheets! What a loss for the party that he isn't one. ;-) --Len

---

Go to my talk page. Tannin has defended my contributions in more convincing manner.

He’s implying that I’m coming under attack largely from non-academic readers of history.

172

 * Ah yes - the unwashed masses teeming below your ivory tower. --mav

-- Mav:

Hey, I didn't imply that. Did you read his reply?

172

 * Yes. --mav

Talk continued at user talk:maveric149

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Mav/archive 7


text:
Pteridinium

Pteridinium is an erniettomorph found in a number of Precambrian deposits worldwide. It is a member of the Ediacaran biota.

Body plan
The three-lobed body is generally flat such that only two lobes are visible. Each lobe consists of a number of parallel ribs extending back to the main axis where the three lobes come together. Even on well-preserved specimens, there is no sign of a mouth, anus, eyes, legs, antennae, or any other appendages or organs. The organism grew primarily by the addition of new units, probably at both ends, with the inflation of existing units contributing little to its growth.

Ecology
Specimens found in what is thought to be life positions indicate that the creature rested on, or possibly in, the sediment in shallow seas. No tracks are known that would seem to be consistent with a moving Pteridinium. It is unclear whether it performed photosynthesis, or osmotically extracted nutrients from seawater.

Occurrence
Fossils are common in late Precambrian deposits in South Australia, South Africa, Namibia, and the White Sea region of Russia. It has also been found in North Carolina and is reported from California and the Northwest Territories of Canada.

History
Pteridium simplex was originally described by Georg Gürich in 1930 published in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Geologischen Gesellschaft vol.82 p. 637. Pteridium was already used back in 1777 by Scopoli as the generic name for bracken fern, and so it was changed to "Pteridinium" in 1933.

Two Pteridinium specimens were found in North Carolina in 1963 by a high school student named John Brattain. After their discovery, they were misidentified by Joseph St. Jean from the UNC Geology Department as Cambrian trilobites, and were classified as "Paradoxides carolinaensis", until they were discovered to be a species of Pteridinium.

It was originally thought that Pteridinium might be a primitive Cnidarian, but it appears that it is, at best, only very distantly related to any known cnidarian. Its relation to other known Ediacaran biota is not clear. There are no identified related forms, although there is some vague resemblance to other Ediacaran forms such as Dickinsonia and Spriggina that share some of its enigmatic characteristics, such as the "staggered" or glide symmetry of its units, or triradial symmetry otherwise only seen in trilobozoans like Tribrachidium. Pteridinium has no known descendants.

title: Pteridinium