text:
Talk:Chinese nationalism

Lacking in basic definition and conceptual grounding
First sentence: "Chinese nationalism (simplified Chinese: 中国民族主义; traditional Chinese: 中國民族主義; pinyin: Zhōngguó mínzú zhǔyì) is a form of nationalism in both mainland China (the People's Republic of China) and Taiwan (Republic of China) which asserts that the Chinese people are a nation and promotes the cultural and national unity of all Chinese people."

This is a circular definition. Nationalism is an attempt to assert and define an nation/nationality, and in this case, that's who "Chinese people" are - you can't use it to define itself. This is doubly complicated by the fact that in English, "Chinese" might refer to the PRC, greater China, ethnicity (when they actually mean Han), or cultural identity.

The rest of the intro paragraphs might be salvageable, but are unsourced, questionable ("These last-minute efforts were best exemplified by Liang Qichao, a Qing Dynasty reformer who failed to reform the Qing government in 1896 and was later expelled to Japan, where he began work on his ideas of Chinese nationalism." - what, he just made it up out of thin air? No connection to the anti-Qing sentiment of the Ming Dynasty remnants?), or not neutral ("helped further strengthen and aggrandize a sense of Chinese national identity" - aggrandize implies outsized, as if there's a "right" amount of national identity.

As we're talking about a concept living in the consciousness of people here, I think it's important to recognize there are multiple strains of thought (some of them more significant than others, some of them competing). There's also a great deal of historical events, but the reader is left trying to piece them together to construct an idea of what Chinese nationalism actually is instead of being given an overview. I further question the importance given to some events/topics. Lastly, there appears to be a dearth of Chinese sources - surely Chinese people have their own writings on the topic? 108.51.117.93 (talk) 08:15, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

 * Sure there are Chinese sources. You would think in an article about Chinese nationalism, which is inherently a controversial subject guaranteed to have multiple perspectives, some of these sources would be used to provide insight. Too bad they are largely deprecated. 136.142.159.97 (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chinese nationalism


text:
Hui pan-nationalism

Hui pan-nationalism refers to the common identity among diverse communities of Chinese-speaking Muslims (typically members of the Hui ethnic-cultural group). Hui pan-nationalism should be distinguished from nationalist sentiments by minority groups who are also Muslim such as those of the Uyghurs. These sentiments are grounded upon the Hui "zealously preserving and protecting their identity as enclaves ensconced in the dominant Han society." In exchange for support during the Cultural Revolution, the Hui were granted high political participation. Hui pan-nationalism was one of the first sources of modern Chinese nationalism, influenced by Western, Japanese and Soviet influences.

Some of the various Chinese Muslim groups included under the Hui are the Hui, Dungans, and Panthays. Because the Uyghurs are not of Sinitic origin, but rather Turkic, they are not included.

History
Throughout history, the Hui have endured significant difficulties in maintaining pan-nationalistic identity. This includes maintaining the territorial boundary of their group, whilst attempting to integrate into larger society. This has posed significant challenges to the survival of the Hui, resulting in a need for Hui pan-nationalism. Some Muslims however, instead have assimilated their Hui identity into the traditional Han as a response to this challenge. This forced integration has led to Muslim-led rebellions (which were later suppressed), along with the complete alienation of the Hui identity.

Tang dynasty
Muslims arrived into China in the late 7th century as merchants. As an emerging, nascent identity in China, spreading Islam and the implementation of Shari’a law, and thus Hui pan-nationalism was of low priority. Instead, the early settlers mode of existence was founded upon secularity, naturalisation and assimilation. This identification of the Hui as ‘foreign merchants’ remained pervasive until the fall of the Song dynasty and establishment of the Yaun dynasty. The state remained responsible for managing the naturalisation of new populations into society.

Yuan dynasty
The fall of the Song dynasty ended fanfang (蕃坊) settlements of Muslims and Muslims were moved from commercial city enclaves to dispersed communities across China. Though fanfang settlements consolidated Hui identity, there was no real autonomy.

Ming dynasty
The fall of the Yuan dynasty and subsequent dissolution of the Mongol racial class system, was met with state-sanction program of Sinicization (cultural integration). This in culmination with the state imposing a monopoly on trade during agrarian distress, resulted in some Hui physically rebelling against government forces in the late Ming and Early Qing period. This was one of the first overt, physical manifestations of Hui pan-nationalism.

Qing dynasty
The Qing dynasty was marked by collective violence and anti-Hui political, social and literary discourse, known as Hui-phobia.

Nationalism became introduced into Chinese politics as a system of defence and regeneration in response to emerging western imperialism and the weakening of the Qing Dynasty. However, tensions rose between group rights and the need for national unity. These late-Qing revolutionists led by Sun Yat-Sen aspired to establish a Chinese state based on a single minzu model, the minzu being predominately Han. In response, the book the Muslim Awakening, written by Chinese students, published in 1908, was an early literary attempt of pan-nationalism; forming a group identity and rejecting the single minzu formation.

The defeat of China in the First Opium War and the First Sino-Japanese war was a major catalyst to fuelling Chinese nationalism.

During this time, theorist Liang Qichao developed two Chinese terms to describe these emerging themes of nationalism; minzuzhuyi, big or state nationalism and xiao minzuzhuyi, small or ethnic nationalism. Big nationalism encouraged the Hui to consider the positions as Chinese citizens; which takes precedence over their ethnic identities. Their ‘small’ nationalism however, conversely awards them a limited amount of freedom to identify as ethnically different from the Han majority.

Dungan Revolt
The Dungan Revolt by the Hui in the 1860s and 1870s was a “bloodbath." This rebellion was led by Ma Hualong, and cut off the Qing state from the northwest of China.

Panthay Rebellion
The Panthay Rebellion was a Hui rebellion against the Manchu rulers of the Qing dynasty in southwestern Yunnan Province.

After the failure of many rebellions, many Hui fled to Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, in Soviet Central Asia.

Republic of China
The establishment of the Republic of China in 1912 promoted the idea of nationality unity among all ethnic groups in China. President Sun Yat-Sen called for the “unification of China” and emphasised the equality among ethnic groups. This led to the establishment of the ‘Five Races under One Union’ or Five Official Nationalities, which encompassed the Hui's among other ethnic groups. This initially encompassed all Chinese Muslims and ethnic Hui (Turks) in the Xinjiang province. This document stated that China was composite of different yet politically equal groups. This state recognition of the Hui was a success to the efforts of Hui pan-nationalism. However, whilst Sun's recognition of the five Chinese nationalities, his ultimate goal was assimilationist; "'Foreign observers say that Chinese are a sheet of loose sand. Why is this? It’s because the people as a whole care about the doctrines of the family and clan but not the state-nation. For Chinese, the unifying force of family and clan is very great indeed and many have been willing to sacrifice their families and lives to defend the clan. But there has never been a case of such a supreme sacrifice for the sake of the country. So the unifying force of the Chinese extends only to the clan, not as far as to the nation-state.”"By involving the collective population, the Nationalists thought they could prevent the total dismemberment of the Chinese state.

Within the national government, Chiang Kai-shek nationalist party were vehement in their denial of other Chinese nationalities; arguing that groups such as the Hui were merely a subvariety of the same minzu. The communists, which later established the People's Republic of China, would later regard Hui as a distinct nationality rather than a religious sub-division. However, following the successive victories in the First Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War, Japan planned psychological warfare to mobilise the people of Huijiao (Hui religion), which continued until the end of World War II. The Japanese capitalised on Hui pan-nationalism ideals to project their agenda on the Hui populace. This mobilisation by the Japanese aided in fostering declining attitudes of nationalism, as many Hui were satisfied with the state's recognition of the Hui in the ‘Five Official Nationalities.’

By the 1920s in China, propaganda efforts such as the founding of the magazine Huiguang 回光 (Light of Islam) within the Society of Light (International Moslem Association) were common. In an article entitled “Political Situation of China and Muslims” (1925), the author, Teijirō Sakuma, called on Muslims in China to strive for independence. Sakuma reasons that the Hui was a zu (“race” or “nationality”) with state recognition, that should be able to claim political rights and resort to political actions when necessary. According to Sakuma, Huizu (“Hui nationality”) was built on a religious basis and this independent nationhood of Huizu was consistent with ideals of Pan-Islamism.

In 1933, the separatist state, the First East Turkestan Republic was established by the Uyghur nationality in the western Xinjiang province. In 1934, the Guomindang government, the Chinese National Party led by Chiang Kai-shek, allied with the Hui warlord Ma Zhongying to overthrow the separatist state. The Hui cooperation with the Han government in defending the territorial integrity of the Chinese nation shows how the Hui successfully consolidated their own ethnic ‘Hui’ identity, whilst working with the Han in defence of their common Chinese national identity.

The Association of Research on the National Question in the North West Bureau of the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party edited a comprehensive document investigating the Hui minority, published in 1941. It strongly criticised the Japanese narrative which promoted the ‘self determination of Hui’ to establish a Hui nation-state through secession. The CCP also recognised that the Hui people were oppressed by international imperialism represented by the Japanese invasion and the domestic ‘national oppression’ the Han.

People's Republic of China
The nationality policy of the People's Republic of China was formulated in the 1930s. This was in order to enlist support against the Chiang Kai-shek nationality policy which de-emphasised ethnic differences in favour of unity of all peoples as member of the Chinese race. This was encapsulated during the Long March, as communist leaders were faced with extermination unless promised affordances were granted to the minorities. As a show of good will, first Hui autonomous county was set up in the 1930s in Tongxin, southern Ningxia. Mao Zedong issued appeals to the northwest Hui to support the Communists' cause, one slogan of the Communist 15th Army Corps was: "Build our own antiJapanese Mohammedan Red Army." Later party documents revealed that Chairman Mao promised self-determination to minorities until 1937. Despite having the right to secede, this was withdrawn in 1940, a much more limited sense of autonomy.

Confucianism, an influential Chinese philosophy promoted assimilation and acculturation of minority people in Han society. The PRC used this as the basis for the Ronghe policy. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) subsequently argued that minorities would only be able to achieve socialist transformation and modernity by establishing a social system under the CCP. A minor approach was first taken, exemplified in 1957 by the PRC Premier, Zhou Enlai, who stated that "assimilation would not be welcome if achieved by force." However, this was later replaced by political extremism and forced assimilation imposed by the Cultural Revolution. Despite governance shift in 1978, ronghe ideology lives on.

The question if the Hui are a nationality (minzu) was the basis of several Communist Party documents dating from the 1940s, published for the first time publicly in 1980 as Huihui minzu wenti (The question of the Hui hui nationality). Following Mao's death in 1976, the Hui and Han have reached a mutual tolerance, with the CCP attempting to rectify Mao's intolerant policies on religion that he exhibited during the cultural revolution and instead focus on acceptance and reformation, achieved by restoring the moderate approach to ethnic policies it had taken pre-1957.

As a result, the Hui are allowed to practice Shari’a law to a limited extent across China and are responsible for Ningixa Hui Autonomous Region. Legislatively, political rights are enshrined. In Article 4 of the PRC Constitution of 1982, it declares that all nationalities have the right to preserve or change their own ways and customs and develop their own languages. Religious freedom of minorities is also protected by the Chinese State under Article 36 of the PRC Constitution.

Compared to the status of other Muslim groups, these successes are attributed to the Hui's “skill of negotiating around the grey areas of China’s political system and the pan-nationalist movement." This is prevalent in the autonomous region, Xinjiang assigned to the Hui governance, along with 2 autonomous prefectures, 9 autonomous counties and a number of autonomous townships.

Despite legal assurances, Muslim minority groups are facing an increasing 'crackdown' on their religious practices under the guise of the Global War on Terror, whereby their international connections and links to Islam are seen as a threat to Chinese nationalism, as is evident in the CCP's actions in Xinjiang in regards to the East Turkestan independence movement. This is in response to a number of terrorist incidents carried out by local Uyghur jihadists with links to ETIM. ETIM is declared a terrorist organization by UN.

Historian Jin Jitang 金吉堂, argues that Huijiao minzu 回教民族 (“Huireligion nationality”) or Huimin/zu (“Hui people/nationality”) is a Sinophone Muslim ethnicity. This argument for a seperae Sinophone Muslim identity became popular among the Hui elites in the later years of the Republic. Communist theorists used his argument to justify their early treatment of the Hui as an ethnic minority or ‘minority nationality’, resulting on the Chinese Communist Party identifying Chinese Muslims as a historically oppressed minzu rather than a religious group.

Shadian incident
The Shadian incident in Yunnan in 1975, left over 1600 Hui dead.

1989 protests
In March 1989, a book ‘Sexual Customs’ (Xingfengsu 性风俗) was published in Shanghai; in May, Hui student-led protests ensued over the book's contents. Protestors claimed that the book “denigrated Islam.” Over 3000 Muslims in Beijing attended, with over 20,000 in Lanzhou, 100,000 in Xining and smaller protests in Ürümqi, Shanghai, Inner Mongolia, Wuhan and Yunnan during April and May. In response, the state met the demands of the protestors, banning the book entirely. Reportedly, 13 million copies were confiscated. 95,240 copies were burnt publicly in Lanzhou, the Shanghai editors were fired with the publication houses shortly closed for “reorganisation”.

1989 Iranian presidential visit
This visit sparked a "fourth tide" in Muslim identity in China. This is due to the subsequent state sponsored tourism and private Islamic investment opportunities that were encouraged following this visit.

Ya’wub Wang Jingzhai
Ya’wub Wang Jingzhai (1879–1949) was an early theorist and religious scholar, also known as one of the “Four Great Akhonds”. Wang Jingzhai promoted the compatibility of pan-Islamic identity with Hui nationalism, and Hui nationalism with Chinese nationalism. These concepts stimulated traction among the Hui community, but were also threatened by increasing Japanese mobilisation of the Hui, and later invasion during WWII.

One of his articles published in the widely read Chinese Muslim article Yuehua 月華 interpreted the hadith, “the love of one’s homeland [springs forth] from the faith," specific to homeland, and therefore, the Hui should defend and build their homeland (China). This among with other direct scriptural justifications for nationalism were disseminated for Chinese Muslim audiences.

Xue Wenbo
Xue Wenbo (薛文波; 1909–1984), using a Leninist framework, constructed a “unified consciousness of the Pan-Islamic nation." He argued that the ‘Huizu’ are the oppressed proletarians of the world, with most wishing to unite under the banner of Islam. (Huijiao).

Ma Jian
In 1950, Ma Jian published an article in 'The People's Daily.' His article criticised imperialism in his justification for religious freedom in China.

Ma Shouqian
The nationalist fervor that embodied Hui intellectuals in the first half of the century, Ma Shouqian has recently termed "the New Awakening of the Hui at the end of f9th and beginning of the 20th centuries."

Islamic discourse
Many religious Chinese imams and students were influenced by various anti-imperialist Islamic texts from authors such as Muhammad ‘Abduh (1849–1905) and Muhib al-Din al-Khatib (1886–1969) which reinforced their national Chinese identity with religious justification. Many of these nationalists were educated under the Qadim (قديم Old) jiaopai 教派 or “teaching school” of Islam, which drew upon imperial Han kitab political theory that the source of power and legitimacy of a political entity comes from a personal sovereign who embodies the Mandate of Heaven. However, the translation of works was highly selective, with ideals normally in line with Chinese nationalism and of benefit in the face of imperialist aggression and indigenous modernism.

Present day
Maintaining the identity of the Hui was critical during the nascent state of the People's Republic of China. Scholars such as Claude Lefort, attribute the fundamental nature of authoritarianism and totalitarianism, is to concentrate nationality in order to maintain power, and have a united enemy against the interference of foreign powers. Thus, citizenship was imposed rather than sought onto minorities. The ultimate policy that governs the Hui's promotes both assimilation and autonomy, an “irony that continues to plague China’s nationality policy.” Yet, much of the Hui identity is blurred due to the mixture of their own unique, cultural practices, coupled with their almost complete assimilation into Han society. Some scholars believe that the Hui will eventually revolt, and attempt to violently secede from the Chinese state, whilst others believe they are too assimilated to dominant Han culture, known as Sinicization.

In recent years, there have been sporadic clashes between Hui and Han. In 2004, scores were reportedly killed during ethnic bloodletting in Henan Province, and in 2012, dozens of people were injured by the police during protests over the demolition of a mosque in Ningxia that the government had declared illegal.

State-sponsored activities
The Islamic Association of China, the Nationalities Institute, and the State Nationalities Commission are bodies which aid in increasing the governance of the Hui, attributed to the efforts of Hui pan-nationalism. Whilst the Islamic Association of China is a notable attempt to unify Chinese Muslims, it in recent years has been overwhelmed in perpetuating sectarian divisions among Chinese Muslims. The association has been accused of abetting state ideologies, by the propagation of patriotism and emphasis on Hui-centrism.

Hui people can also subscribe to the state-sponsored periodicals; China's Muslims (Zhongguo Musilin) and Muslim World (Musilin shijie), which help to promote maintaining Hui identity and unity across China.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Hui pan-nationalism


text:
Shovel

A shovel is a tool used for digging, lifting, and moving bulk materials, such as soil, coal, gravel, snow, sand, or ore. Most shovels are hand tools consisting of a broad blade fixed to a medium-length handle. Shovel blades are usually made of sheet steel or hard plastics and are very strong. Shovel handles are usually made of wood (especially specific varieties such as ash or maple) or glass-reinforced plastic (fiberglass).

Hand shovel blades made of sheet steel usually have a folded seam or hem at the back to make a socket for the handle. This fold also commonly provides extra rigidity to the blade. The handles are usually riveted in place. A T-piece is commonly fitted to the end of the handle to aid grip and control where the shovel is designed for moving soil and heavy materials. These designs can all be easily mass-produced.

The term shovel also applies to larger excavating machines called power shovels, which serve the same purpose—digging, lifting, and moving material. Although such modern power shovels as front-end loaders and excavators (including tractors that feature a loading bucket on one end and a backhoe for digging and placing material on the other) descend from steam shovels and perform similar work, they are not classified as shovels.

Hand shovels have been adapted for many different tasks and environments. They can be optimized for a single task or designed as cross-over or compromise multitaskers. They are commonly used in agriculture.

It is also utilized in archaeology to locate and excavate all subsurface dirt.

History

In the Neolithic age and earlier, a large animal's scapula (shoulder blade) was often used as a crude shovel or spade. Shovels at this time were often used for farming.

The later invention of purpose-built shovels was a ground-breaking development. Manual shoveling, often in combination with picking, was the chief means of excavation in construction until mechanization via steam shovels and later hydraulic equipment (excavators such as backhoes and loaders) gradually replaced most manual shoveling. The same is also true of the history of mining and quarrying and of bulk materials handling in industries such as steelmaking and stevedoring. Railroad cars and cargo holds containing ore, coal, gravel, sand, or grains were often loaded and unloaded this way. These industries did not always rely exclusively on such work, but such work was a ubiquitous part of them. Until the 1950s, manual shoveling employed large numbers of workers. Groups of workers called 'labor gangs' were assigned to whatever digging or bulk materials handling was needed in any given week, and dozens or hundreds of workers with hand shovels would do the kind of rapid excavating or materials handling that today is usually accomplished with powered excavators and loaders operated by a few skilled operators. Thus the cost of labor, even when each individual worker was poorly paid, was a tremendous expense of operations. Productivity of the business was tied mostly to labor productivity. It still often is even today; but in the past it was even more so. In industrial and commercial materials handling, hand shoveling was later replaced with loaders and backhoes.

Given the central importance and cost of manual labour in industry in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the "science of shoveling" was something of great interest to developers of scientific management such as Frederick Winslow Taylor. Taylor, with his focus on time and motion study, took an interest in differentiating the many motions of manual labor to a far greater degree than others tended to. Managers might not care to analyze it (possibly motivated by the assumption that manual labor is intellectually simple work), and workers might not care to analyze it in any way that encouraged management to take away the prerogative in craft work for the craftsman to decide the details of his methods. Taylor realized that failing to analyze shoveling practice represented a missed opportunity to discover or synthesize best practices for shoveling, which could achieve highest productivity (value for dollar spent). It was Taylor and colleagues in the 1890s through 1910s that greatly expanded the existing idea of varied shovel designs with different-sized scoops, one for each material, based on the material's density. Under scientific management, it was no longer acceptable to use the same shovel for shoveling brown coal one day and gravel the next. Taylor said the increased worker productivity, and corresponding savings in wages paid, would offset the capital cost of maintaining two shovels.

During the Second Industrial Revolution around 1900, heavy equipment such as crawler excavators became available.

Shovels known as entrenching tools were made by the British in 1908. They were used by the Germans in World War I and World War II.

title: Shovel


text:
Talk:Shovel

Big Shout, Such Dad
I am not a Wikipedia editor, I just really wanna acknowledge one of the best dad jokes I’ve seen: “The later invention of purpose-built shovels was a ground-breaking development.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.117.29 (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Serrated Edges??
Since when do axes have serrated edges...?

However: missing sides or edges don't necessarily seem to make a spade.

Regards, Frank W ~@) R 08:37 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC).

Hmm. So what is the definitive difference? Or is there just a spectrum of things that some people call "spades" and others "shovels"? The Anome

Ok, let's try this: Is that right? The Anome
 * flat blade => spade
 * blade with sides or concavity => shovel

No! Ask a gardener. A spade is used primarily for spading - breaking up dirt so that there are no clumps, prior to planting. As such they require a point (just like you see in the "spade" in a deck of cards). Shovels are for shoveling - moving material. As such, shovels have a flat edge, so you can slide underneath the material. Chas zzz brown 20:51 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)
 * It's true that a spade is primarily for spading (and usually has a point) and that many shovels have flat edges, but it is not universally true - some shovels have rounded blades. I'm pretty sure that the technical distinction is that a spade is designed to be pushed into the ground with the aid of a foot. The problem is that there are lots of compromise and cross-over versions of the tools that try to serve both needs yet we only have the two words. And (at least in the US) they're all sold as "shovels" regardless of their real purpose.  Rossami 21:36, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

As far as I know, a spade is a rounded, triangular, often metal blade attached to a handle used for digging or breaking earth. A spade shovel is a shovel handle (usually longer than 30 inches) with a larger rounded triangular blade at it's end. If someone walked up to me and asked me for a spade, I'd probably end up handing them a trowel, which is a smaller version of a spade shovel -- it has a thinner blade and a short (hand-sized) handle. The problem here is similar to the difference between an icepick and a pickaxe. -- Oceanhahn 00:09, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think that if I asked someone for a spade & they handed me a trowel, I'd be dumbfounded to say the least. I'd expect something like that now pictured in the article. Then to confuse things, there's the spading fork-- Elf | Talk 00:44, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More: Here we go, per M. Webster: A spade is "a digging implement adaapted for being pushed into the ground with the foot." A shovel is "a hand implement consisting of a broad scoop or a more or less hollowed out blade with a handle used to lift and throw material". (Compared to a pitchfork. :-) ) Elf | Talk 00:49, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Then it must be a regional/dialectic problem I'm expriencing. Please refrain from asking me for spades in the near future. -- Oceanhahn 08:06, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * LOL! I'll try to restrain myself.  Elf | Talk 14:58, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What Does This Have to Do with Shovels?
"Unfortunately, despite Taylor's valid insights about the possibility for applying science to manual labour (including shoveling and the lifting and carrying of heavy objects) and his valid insights about the inequality of talents between individuals, he did not really respect the human dignity of all workers, and tended to be contemptuous of people with low intelligence."

This seems to have gotten a bit off topic! GeneCallahan (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed the sentence, plus another below it that seemed to contradict itself. I'm surprised that the sentence you quoted remained intact for so long, apart from the removal of "Unfortunately" at the beginning which violates WP:EDITORIAL. DesertPipeline (talk) 12:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Ergonomic Use of the Shovel
Most people use their arms and trunk muscles during the use of a shovel (i.e., during the lifting of a shovel and its contents), which is quite straining on the body and tiring on the person. However, there is a method of using a shovel in such a way that the knee is used as a lever during the lifting of the shovel and its contents. The use of the knee in this manner helps support the major weight of the shovel and its contents during the lifting process, thus making the lifting process significantly less straining and tiring on the person using a shovel.

I do not have a source to include because this idea is based on my own personal experience during the years when I was farming and performing construction work. Joozoon (talk) 01:16, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

 * No original research is permitted. If our readers can't verify the claim for themselves it doesn't belong in an article. Cabayi (talk) 08:33, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Carlos,
 * I understand what you are saying. However, my proposed addition is NOT really an original research. I did not discover or create this method. I learned it from other people practicing it. I really think it can benefit humanity, so that's why I would like to add it to this article. So, please reconsider.
 * Thank you!
 * Neema 76.178.109.210 (talk) 16:13, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shovel


text:
Uff!

Uff! was a Venezuelan boy band founded in 2000. Similar in style to Menudo, Los Chicos and Los Chamos, they mimicked the fashion style of contemporary American boy bands like No Authority, Backstreet Boys and Hanson. In 2001, the band's debut album achieved a golden record in Mexico.

Members
Uff! was composed of:
 * Alexander Da Silva - born 2 October 1985 in Caracas
 * Fabio Melannitto - born 3 February 1985 in Caracas - Died 15 August 2018 in Mexico City
 * Rawy Mattar - born 14 August 1985 in Caracas
 * Jean Ducournau - born 9 December 1984 in Caracas
 * José Luis Graterol - born 27 September 1986 in Caracas
 * Marcos Causa - born 12 September 1987 in Caracas
 * Luis Fernando - born 22 November 1985 in Mexico

Member Fabio Melannitto was murdered while driving in a motorcycle in Mexico City. The assailants are still being searched for.

Discography

 * Albums
 * Ya lo ves (2000)
 * Uff!oria latina (2001)

 * A 10 centímetros (2003)

 * Numa competição CTF (2019)

title: Uff!


text:
User talk:Beiguo

Ethnicity in a Cross-Cultural Perspective
 * 1) http://www.cpamedia.com/politics/hui_muslims_in_china/ The Hui: China's most loyal Muslims
 * 2) http://www.uyghuramerican.org/researchanalysis/internalcol.html Internal Colonialism and China's Uyghur Muslim Minority
 * 3) http://www.brown.edu/Courses/CI0103_Domizio/S2002/Lisa_Lau/ 上海的穆斯林民族
 * 4) http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2001/0125/di24-1.html Muslim hot pot boils on
 * 5) http://www.brown.edu/Courses/CI0103_Domizio/S2002/Ellen_Golden/ 上海的犹太人
 * 6) http://www.missionfrontiers.org/1991/0103/jm913.htm Pray for Muslims in China!
 * 7) http://ignca.nic.in/ks_40032.htm  On Theories of Nationalism for India and China
 * 8) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dru/publications.html Dru Gladney articles
 * 9) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dru/tree.htm RELATIONAL ALTERITY: CONSTRUCTING DUNGAN (HUI), UYGUR, AND KAZAKH IDENTITIES ACROSS CHINA, CENTRAL ASIA, AND TURKEY
 * 10) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dru/exotic.htm Representing Nationality in China: Refiguring Majority/Minority Identities Dru C. Gladney
 * 11) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dru/dialogic.htm The Making of a Muslim Nationality in China: Dialogue and Contestation
 * 12) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2020009.stm Language blow for China's Muslims
 * 13) http://www.uygur.org/wunn02/media/20020108_BBC%20News%20%20ASIA-PACIFIC%20%20China's%20fearful%20Muslim%20minority.htm  China's fearful Muslim minority
 * 14) http://www.marquette.edu/inia/Editorials/Lauzon.htm The War Against Terror and China's Treatment of the Uigher Ethnic Minority
 * 15) http://www.uyghuramerican.org/researchanalysis/gowest.html China Goes West: Laudable Development? Ethnic Provocation?
 * 16) http://coranet.radicalparty.org/pressreview/print_right.php?func=detail&par=2862  UYGHUR LANGUAGE AND CULTURE UNDER THREAT IN XINJIANG
 * 17) http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20020701facomment8515/chien-peng-chung/china-s-war-on-terror-september-11-and-uighur-separatism.html China's "War on Terror": September 11 and Uighur Separatism by Chien-peng Chung
 * 18) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2241025.stm China's 'war on terror'
 * 19) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2241025.stm  China's 'war on terror'
 * 20) http://coranet.radicalparty.org/pressreview/print_right.php?func=detail&par=3201  East Turkestan Islamic Movement
 * 21) http://www.uygur.org/wunn02/2002_12_16.htm   U.S. Pushes China on Prisoners, Religious Freedoms
 * 22) http://www.spacedaily.com/news/020827035748.q0bpp7ut.html US envoy leaves China as war on terror brings sides closer
 * 23) http://www.uygur.org/enorg/history/history.htm East Turkistan Historyn
 * 24) http://www.ndu.edu/inss/symposia/pacific2000/gladneypaper.htm China's National Insecurity:Old Challenges at the Dawn of the New Millennium Dru C. Gladney
 * 25) http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/views/y/2000/12/mackinnon.xinjiang.dec14/ Rumblings of discontent among ethnic Muslims on China's Asian frontier
 * 26) http://faculty.washington.edu/stevehar/zhenci.html A Neo-Confucian Muslim Ponders the Creating God
 * 27) http://www.tibet.ca/wtnarchive/1995/2/24_1.html China's Ethnic Divisions Are Showing Up and Could Cause Trouble
 * 28) http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/sympo/97summer/sasaki.html Segmentary Hierarchy of Identity: The Case of Yakuts and Evens in Northern Yakutia
 * 29) http://www.isim.nl/newsletter/1/regional/01AC23.html Internal Colonialism and China's Uyghur Muslim Minority
 * 30) http://www.coe.uga.edu/quig/proceedings/Quig93_Proceedings/trueba.93.html Healing Multicultural America: The Ethnography of Race and

Beiguo, Your user page is filled with lots of links.
Beiguo, remove the links from your talk page and user page. I will remove the links and neat up your user page and talk page. And Wikipedia is not a link farm. MintChocoChip ( Yum ) 07:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Beiguo


text:
Talk:Christian philosophy

Do not delete the entire introduction!
This article is designed to be about Christian philosophy, not Christianity in general. Please do not delete the main point of the article. If you have a problem with a particular section, please discuss it here first. Thanks. RK 02:07, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for the introduction
I beg to differ strenuously with you RK. Someone imposed a whole mass of material that belongs elsewhere in "apologetics" or something else. It was no introduction, but an insertion of someone's sytematic thesis and distanced the true Introduction of the matter which cannot be accurate without proceeding historically, in the nature of the case. Reformatikos 7:16 PM April 14, 2005 (EST)

 * I don't think that you understand what the word apologetics means. Its technical meaning is nearly the opposite of the way you are using it. RK

The task of the Christian philosophy article is to trace thru the emergence of Christian philosophical contributions and highlight what relation they had to other philosophies in whose environoment they dwelt in different times and ages. -- Reformatikos

 * Could you rephrase this more precisely? It seems to me that you are not using the word philosophy in its technical sense.  You seem to be using it in its informal, colloquial sense. However, this article is about Christian philosophy in the technical sense of the term.  Your use is more like colloquial uses of the term.  RK

 * "Philosophical theology" is not philosophy proper; it is theology that borrows heavily from and uses philosophy because its discontent with its own resources. -- Reformatikos

 * Who uses this term in this way? It sounds to me like you are claiming that "philosophical theology" is apologetics done by Christians who are insecure in their own beliefs, and who believe that Christianity is insufficient, and thus feel the need to go to other ways of thinking to confirm their beliefs. I have not heard others use this phrase in this way before. Are there any philosophers who recognize this terminology? RK 11:58, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * Could you rephrase this more precisely? What does this mean?  RK

The previous insertion, which I take to be yours RK and which requires all sorts of apparently unexamined and questionable presuppositions, tried to drive a division between religion and phliosophy as two binomially opposed subjects. -- Reformatikos

 * You are missing the main point. It is a historical fact that many philosphers believe that philosophy is incompatible with Christianity, or with any revealed religion, such as Judaism or Islam.  Similarly, it is a fact that many religious Christians believe that Christianity is incompatible with philosophy.  And yet a third group believes that the two are indeed reconcilable.  These are critical points.  RK

 * BTW, I take offense at your remarks that pointing this fact out is somehow the fault of me making "apparently unexamined and questionable presuppositions." I didn't make any presuppositions at all. Rather, I merely stated the array of views that different people have on this subject, in accord with NPOV policy. RK 23:20, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * It is a fact that both many Christians and many philosophers believe that Christianity and philosophy are "two binomially opposed subjects." Therefore it is a requirement of our NPOV policy to point the existence of such well-known and well-represented disputes. RK 22:52, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Some philosophies insist on doing so, even some syntethist Christian philosophieis. But Christian philosophizing need not do so. It can stand on its own and is equipped to review its own historical emergence and doesn't have to argue for the existence of God - why should it even bother to do so, as Christian philosophy which is oriented to understanding the structures of creation and their diachronic development. -- Reformatikos

 * I can't believe you are making this claim, while editing an article on Christian philosophy. It is a historical fact that many Christian philosophers do discuss proofs for the existence of God! If one is unfamiliar with this, then one is not yet qualified to do deep writing on this issue.  Plenty of Christians have a worldview that differs from yours. The variety of Christian viewpoints, both classical and modern, is quite wide. RK

Whereas if ultimate values are the heart of the definition of "religion" then every religion (including atheisms or absolutizing rationalisms) can generate various philosophies from its own inner genius over historical time. I wanted to emphasize Christian philosophizing as an integral and inevitable movement but with diverse results over time. -- Reformatikos

 * Fine by me. I have no problem with this. I haven't deleted any sections within this article. I totally agree with you that Christianity has generated various philosophies from its own inner genius over historical time. RK

There is no problem of "two fields" for Christian philosophizing. I am not deleting the main point of the article at all, you are inserting extraneous material to make "apologetics" and certain of you personally selected problems in the border discipline of "philosophical theology" the central issue. -- Reformatikos

 * This so-called "extraneous" material is the main point of the article: Is Christian philosophy even possible? How can we discuss Christian philosophy if the very concept is impossible?  Well, although many Christians and many philosophers do hold that it is impossible, some Christians hold otherwise, and attempt to merge the two.  Actually, is this latter view not in agreement with your own thesis? RK

But this RK approach makes a static systematics of your own divising the POV-ridden norm for a topic that has to be pursued historically, in order to see how those Christian philosophies for which we have extant documents or references, posed their own problems, figure by figure, over time - either in thetic construction, in posing problems, and in borrowing or refusing solutions along the way.

 * That is totally incorrect. The introduction does not give my philosophical approach. I do not offer or reccomend any systematic philosophy.  (And many varied Christian systematic philosophies do exist, from Thomas Aquinas to Charles Hartshorne.)  I never once wrote my point of view in the article, nor here in this Talk page. RK

 * As for your position that we should pursue this subject historically, through extant documents, seeing how the subject evolves over time, I am in total agreement with you. I haven't made any changes to the article's  analysis in this way. RK

This is not the place for you to take over the lead with your own settled systematics - most of which issues are not germane - Christianity doesn't necessarily have to raise the question of whether God exists, except outside it's own phlosophizing and in another discipline called "apologetics." Create your own "Christian apologetics" entry, or "Christian philosophical theology" entry, and then a reference can be made in "Christian phliosophy" for those not really interested in philosophy to divert their attention to "apologetics" and/or "philosophical theology." I find you to be completely inappropriate and out of order in this move of yours. This is no place for your systematics. Yours Reformatikos 7:16 PM April 14, 2005 (EST)

 * But I did not "take over the lead with my own settled systematics." In fact, I never discussed my own views on this topic at all. I merely offered an introduction which attempts to put the subject in its intellectual context.  RK

 * Secondly, many Christian philosophers do consider these issues germane. Just because you don't care is irrelevant. This article is about the wide range of views of Christian philosopjy, not the narrow set of views that you agree with. RK

 * Thirdly, as for you suggesting that I write an entry on Christian apologetics, you also should know that we do already have many articles on Christianity and its apologetics. Please re-read our articles on Philosophy and on Apologetics. RK 23:08, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Example of Christian philosophy
Here is an example of what I mean. Look at Introduction to Philosophy: A Christian Perspective, by Norman L. Geisler and Paul D. Feinberg, Baker Academic, 1987. The authors are both Christians and philosophers. They believe that the two are complimentary, not contradictory. The contents of their book list the subjects they discuss (partially quoted, below), and they are the same subjects that many classical Christian philosophers discuss, namely: RK
 * Part one: Introduction to Philosophy
 * 1. What Is Philosopy?
 * 2. Disciplines Within hilosophy
 * 3. Methodology in Philosophy
 * 4. The Tools of Philosophy
 * 5. The Challenge of Philosophy
 * Part two: What Is Knowledge?
 * 6. Can We Know?
 * 7. How Can We Know?
 * 8. Is Certainty Possible?
 * 9. How Do We Perceive the External World?
 * 10. How Are Believes Justified?
 * Part four: What Is the Ultimate?
 * 17. The Relationship Between Faith and Reason
 * 18. What Is Meant by ``God''?
 * 19. Does God Exist?
 * 20. How Can We Talk About God?
 * 21. The Problem of Evil
 * 22. Can We Experience God?

Sources?
What are the sources for the following assertions?

"As with any fusion of religion and philosophy, the attempt is difficult because classical philosophers start with no preconditions for which conclusions they must reach in their investigation,"(emphasis mine)

"This is known as apologetics and is a common technique found in the writings of many religious traditions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but is not generally accepted as true philosophy by philosophers."(emphasis mine)

Removed stuff stored for possible later use
Removed this apparent bibliographical passage from "Interaction between Christian and non-Christian philosophers" along with a large section of text in a different language; this was out of place where it was, but I'm putting it here rather than throwing it away since others want to make use of it in the article; it does seem relevant at first glance. Gthb 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Bibliography of Additional Readings" (1990). In Mortimer J. Adler (Ed.), Great Books of the Western World, 2nd ed., v. 2, pp. 987-988. Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica.
 * Craig Paterson & Matthew S. Pugh (eds.) Analytical Thomism: Traditions in Dialogue. Ashgate, 2006.
 * Ferrarin, Alfredo, Hegel and Aristotle, Cambridge University Press, 2001.
 * Gadamer, Hans-Georg, The Idea of the Good in Platonic-Aristotelian Philosophy (trans. P. Christopher Smith), Yale University Press, 1986.
 * Gerson, Lloyd P., Aristotle and Other Platonists, Cornell University Press, 2005.
 * Heidegger, Martin, Phenomenological Interpretations of Aristotle: Initiation into Phenomenological Research (trans. Richard Rojcewicz), Indiana University Press, 2001.
 * Knight, Kelvin, Aristotelian Philosophy: Ethics and Politics from Aristotle to MacIntyre, Polity Press, 2007.
 * Lobkowicz, Nicholas, Theory and Practice: History of a Concept from Aristotle to Marx, University of Notre Dame Press, 1967.
 * Lutz, Christopher Stephen, Tradition in the Ethics of Alasdair MacIntyre: Relativism, Thomism, and Philosophy, Rowman & Littlefield, 2004.
 * McCarthy, George E. (ed.), Marx and Aristotle: Nineteenth-Century German Social Theory and Classical Antiquity, Rowman & Littlefield, 1992.
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, Marxism and Christianity, Duckworth, 1995 (2nd edn.).
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, After Virtue: A Study in Moral Theory, University of Notre Dame Press, 1984 / Duckworth, 1985 (2nd edn.).
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, Whose Justice? Which Rationality?, University of Notre Dame Press / Duckworth, 1988.
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, Three Rival Versions of Moral Enquiry: Encyclopaedia, Genealogy, and Tradition, University of Notre Dame Press / Duckworth, 1990.
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, ‘The Theses on Feuerbach: A Road Not Taken’, in Kelvin Knight (ed.), The MacIntyre Reader, University of Notre Dame Press / Polity Press, 1998.
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, Dependent Rational Animals: Why Human Beings Need the Virtues, Open Court / Duckworth, 1999.
 * MacIntyre, Alasdair, ‘Natural Law as Subversive: The Case of Aquinas’ and ‘Rival Aristotles: 1. Aristotle Against Some Renaissance Aristotelians; 2. Aristotle Against Some Modern Aristotelians’, in MacIntyre, Ethics and Politics: Selected Essays volume 2, Cambridge University Press, 2006.
 * Riedel, Manfred (ed.), Rehabilitierung der praktischen Philosophie, Rombach, volume 1, 1972; volume 2, 1974.
 * Ritter, Joachim, Metaphysik und Politik: Studien zu Aristoteles und Hegel, Suhrkamp, 1977.
 * Stocks, John Leofric, Aristotelianism, Harrap, 1925.
 * Veatch, Henry B., Rational Man: A Modern Interpretation of Aristotelian Ethics, Indiana University Press, 1962.

Sources a MUST!
This article does not meet Wiki standards for writing. It is filled with OR--original research. If has been unsourced for a long time. It should be scheduled for deletion.Afaprof01 04:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion
VOTE: DELETE ARTICLE. I agree that the article is very poorly written and contains what seems to be homespun (OR) understanding of both Christianity and philosophy. The attributions about Jesus are unclear and misleading. The fact that this article has been around so long without ANY citations from reputable sources makes it very suspect and essentially worthless. Oberlin 03:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

what about Leibniz?
Leibniz was christian, you can see that in his teodicee.

The Problem with Christian Philosophy!!!
Isn't this both an oxymoron and a misnomer?!?!?! --Carlon 20:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 03:51, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

atheist...?
After reading this article, I must say that it makes me think it was written by an atheist! 66.74.230.117 (talk) 21:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Well of course you think that. Just like, by reading your contributions, one might get the inkling that you are horribly, horribly biased, not unlike myself. The only difference being that I don't say anything unless someone is acting particularly stupid. 24.95.247.110 (talk) 10:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Problematic introduction
The opening paragraphs of this article are deeply problematic. The definition of Christian philosophy as "the fusion of various fields of philosophy with the theological doctrines of Christianity" is refuted by the contents of the page itself. Already there is mention of Kierkegard and Dooyeweerd, founders of Existentialism and Reformational Philosophy respectively - no mere blending of philosophy with theology! Some work described as Christian philosophy may indeed fit this description, but the topic cannot be limited to this a priori.

Thus I propose that the whole section "Reconciling Christianity with philosophy" is a topic for another article, or at least should be moved further down this article. Let's give a chance for radically Christian philosophies to be presented before defining them out of existence!

RMGunton (talk) 20:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Material from article that belongs in Discussion
I believe the following two paragraphs that I've cut from the section "Rennaisance and Reformation Christian Philosophers" may be valuable for other editors (indeed I partially agree with the second one) but not for readers.

"Two later Dutch Protestants are mistakenly put in the foregoing philosophical "era" by some historically ignorant contributor to this page. Neither belong to this era.  One was a stock-market speculator on ships' voyages to the Dutch West Indies, and led in the disruption of the Reformed Church of the Netherlands over an inflated and misformulated Protestant Neo-Scholastic theory of "free will" that produced as its counterpoint the reactionary Canons of Dordt (Arminius became part of the sect called "the Remonstrants"). The other belonged ruffly and belatedly to the same school but remained nominally Reformed, while producing a great body of scholarship on International Law, his writings ironically becoming influential in the predestinarian Scholastic circles of Scotland. But these were neither Reformers nor philosophers."

"Even more serious a problem in this history of philosophy section, erroneously entitled "Renaissance and Reformation Christian Philosophy" is the lumping together of the Renaissance with the Reformation. This lumpen-historiography of philosophy has no place in the historical evaluation of Western philosophy's periods, continuities, discontinuities, re-emergences, twists, turns, and recurring problems traceable to a finite original number (Vollenhoven, Wolters), that arguably have simply exfloriated over the centuries. There were many Renaissance thinkers of importance, some definitely philosophers, who are not mentioned at all by previous contributors to this page. Absolutely inexcusable. So, the erroneous heading itself obscures epochal differences (Vollenhoven), while at the same time Desiderius Erasmus Roteradamus is never branched off from the Renaissance thawt to his own lone stance of textual critique and satire of church, state, and ranks of society; but it was he, if any one person, who moderated between the two conflated zeitgeists, and synchronic but alternative types of Christian philosophy. Yet was himself no philosopher."

RMGunton (talk) 22:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Kant?!
Who in the world put Kant as a Christian philosopher? That should be deleted. Kant was a Christian philosopher tbf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:309A:A877:0:0:2767:C8A1 (talk) 13:18, 11 December 2021 (UTC) 75.141.113.231 (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality?
I cannot see any specific reason for the POV-tag, it was marked by sir Anon IP 64.234.0.101 HERE, with the reason (adding the tage... where are the sources?) in May 2009. It must certainly have timed out now. The article is a little POVvy from an anti-philosophical sentiment, but not enough to warrant a fat POV-tag. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 07:38, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Origins?
The section Origins of Christian philosophy is wrong. Jesus did not philosophise, neither The Apostle Paul. The origins of "Christian" philosophy (scholastics and so) is mostly Plato, Aristotle and the Stoics. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 07:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I propose rebuilding the entire article around a discourse similar to Philosophy and Christian Theology from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, written by real philosophers, not amateur editors trying their best to remember what they've been taught from here and there. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 07:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

What about Dostoevsky?
Why isn't Dostoevsky included on the Christian philosophers list? He was certainly Christian and his writings reflect that. Andrei Bolkonsky (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Dostoevsky's religious beliefs are debated among scholars. See the section in the article about him regarding his religious beliefs. Eb7473 (talk) 17:04, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Rename
This should probably be titled 'List of Christian philosophers' as it doesn't really detail anything unique about Christian philosophy, just lists Christian philosophers. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 11:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Argument For the Rewrite
This article contains unclear sources and lead section does not summarize enough key points. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuJi and GuaGua (talk • contribs) 06:13, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Rewrite
This article Need to be completely rewritten, its contemporary form is very bad (Pseudo-Dionysius the areopagite (talk) 18:15, 15 September 2019 (UTC)).

Wikipedia
WP:TNT is the only way to save this article(Pseudo-Dionysius the areopagite (talk) 00:13, 24 September 2019 (UTC)).

 * What do you think about the suggestion above to Rename this article, or transfer this info to List of Christian philosophers and write a new article here about Christian philosophy? Editor2020 (talk) 20:51, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Petition to rewrite
Can I rewrite this article?(The Sr Guy (talk) 16:09, 28 January 2020 (UTC)).

Worlds religion
What really are the philosophy of Christian religions 158.62.80.208 (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Christian philosophy


text:
Talk:Fremantle

earlier comments
Fremantle, Australia has been moved to Fremantle, because there is only one Fremantle(unless you count the guy it's named after). -- Tim Starling 08:57 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)

Quite surprised that Fremantle has so little content. Are there any Perth editors who are Freo based that can contribute? There is a lot of history in Freo that can be told, and certainly you'd not be a true Perth person without spending part of your childhood in Freo or eating at Cicerello's at least.

I'm pretty sure the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fremantle_tagged_gnangarra.jpg has the train station tagged incorrectly. To my knowledge, the train station is actually not visible in the photograph, being to the right of the harbour control building. -- G solon 19:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The green turret dome belongs to Barwil House which is about 4 blocks south-west of the train station on cliff street. The arch-looking structure (which probably caused the confusion) appears to be part of the modern innards of one of the buildings between Mouat and Henry streets.  MuJoCh 21:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree to the tagged bulding is on the west side of the park opposite TS which is on the north side inthe image under the first crane, I'll re tagged and place a new image there shortly Gnangarra 10:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Are we sure that "Frem A ntle" is universally pronounced as "Fr EE mantle"? I've been here for over 40 years, and the only people I ever heard use "Fr EE mantle" have been po English migrants -- and only a few at that. Gordon | Talk, 05 November 2006 @05:35 UTC
 * I lived around there for 25+ years, and I think the pronunciation section of the article is pretty accurate. And I'm not a pommy English migrant either ;) - Gobeirne 08:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Born here > 50 years ago.  But I suspect an "old money" class preference for "Frem A ntle". Callophylla 04:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I live way over on the other side :p - I always thought it was exactly the opposite to what it appears to be saying in the article. An untutored reader (such as myself) would pronounce it with the first syllable enunciated as FREE, whereas a local would shorten that up to sound like FRUH. So there you go.
 * Either way, can we move it to somewhere other than the leading paragraph. It seems as if it plopped there after some pub brawl on the issue. I also gave it over to WP:WA, Stirling's camp be damned!  -  Fredmantle
 * I agree that it shouldn't be in the first paragraph. I was born and raised in Freo so I will put have to some work into this article. I mean come on, the [Hamersley, Western Australia|Hamersley] article has 75 references, and this one has a whole four... Also (because I can't resist having my $0.02) I have always pronounced it FREEmantle, and East FREEmantle. If it weren't pronounced like that, it wouldn't be shortened to FREE-oh! Many people, both locals and non-locals, do say it the other way, but that doesn't make it right ;-) +203.161.90.233 16:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, that was me; thought I was logged in, obviously not. +Bass hound 16:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

FREE-mantle
I have put the pronunciation guide to freo as a footnote. There did not seem to be anywhere else to put it yet. I added a tiny bit and another reference. Fred 17:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Carmen Lawrence
The article as it stood mentioned that Carmen Lawrence was a "significant political figure" which Fremantle had "produced". It then went on to say that she was the first female Australian Premier etc. I have removed it to this talk page for discussion because it did not have a citation. It does not seem right to me. Sure, she's a significant (and controversial) political figure, but I am not convinced that Fremantle has had much to do with this at all. Her article says she was born in Northam, went to various schools elsewhere in Perth and WA, taught in Melbourne, and she was first elected to the WA parliament as the member for Subiaco, and then after a redistribution, got re-elected twice as member for Glendalough, once while she was Premier. The only time that Fremantle seems to even come into her biography was when she stood for it, a safe Labor seat. To claim that Fremantle somehow nurtured her into her success ignores that she was already high-profile, significant and controversial well before she had anything to do with Fremantle. - Mark 11:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fremantle was a seat of convenience(safe labor) when she moved across to Federal Politics, while she may be a significant figure in Fremantle, she isnt the product of Fremantle. From memory she had resigned/lost the state election as premier before moving to federal politics. Gnangarra 12:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Gnangarra's memory is pretty acurate, when she lost the State Election in February, 1993, she remained as leader of the opposition until early 1994. She was the member for Subiaco (then Glendalough) until that time - then when John Dawkins resigned from Federal politics in 1994 she was 'parachuted' into the safe (labour) federal seat of Fremantle - only after her pre-selection did she purchase a townhouse in North Fremantle, which given her federal duties didn't reside there for signficant periods. She remained as the member for Fremantle until the 2007 elections. During that time it is fairly safe to say she didn't do much for her local electorate. Not to disimilar to the current encumbant, Melissa Parke, who grew up in the south-west and was a UN lawyer, before being 'parachuted' into the safe seat - only moving into the area after her preselection. Once again, though earlier days, she hasn't done much for her electorate either. Dan arndt (talk) 01:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Freo newspaper clipping database
There is a new and growing database of newspaper articles relating to Fremantle: http://fremantle.archives.org.au/data/newspaper_clippings (in case anyone's interested). 203.190.192.130 (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Translation into Chinese Wikipedia
The 04:24, 26 November 2008 124.169.95.182 version of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Wing (talk) 10:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Wing. I added the inter-language link 费利曼图 to this page.  It appears there's an editing restriction on, so could you add Fremantle, Western Australia to the article there please.  –Moondyne 14:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Fremantle a city?
Does Freemantle count as a city? I've lived in Perth my whole life and have only ever heard/thought of it as a suburb, whilst it is one of the most famous and major suburb, Perth would still be the city no?
 * Yes it is a city; it is one of the 17 metropolitan cities in the Perth metro area. It is also spelt with only one 'e': Fremantle. —Sam Wilson 02:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's slightly confusing, as the City of Fremantle is a city (extending to the cemetery and south past South Beach), Fremantle (this article) relates to a declared city under royal charter (1929) which preceded the entire system of local government as we now know it (which was legislated in 1960 and came into effect in 1961), and is a handy place to place stuff about culture and stuff which normally goes with cities, and Fremantle (suburb) is its central suburb. And of course Fremantle is entirely within the Perth metropolitan area. This problem comes up time and again on Australian articles as we're practically the only country which delineates suburbs in all metropolitan areas rather than simply the outskirts, and one of the very few that distinguishes LGAs and historic cities. When people talk about "Fremantle" in Perth they usually mean the suburb. Orderinchaos 13:10, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Potential copyvio
To be safe, I have removed the following content"The Whadjuk identify six seasons which guided their movement across the land. For instance during Djeran (cool weather April to May) families moved back along the Swan River away from the coast. When Makuru (cold and wet June to July) came the Whadjuk moved further inland to their winter camps. By the time of Kambarang (warm and rain decreasing October to November) the Whadjuk had started to move back to the coast as the weather warmed up." which was apparently pasted from here. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 04:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposing title change for 'prehistory'
The title ' prehistory' should be amended to 'Aboriginal (pre-European settlement)' or something similar which acknowledges that there was a civilization with its own history prior to European settlement. The term 'prehistory' is dismissive of the Aboriginal civilization suggesting there was nothing significant prior and the 'history of Australia' only happened once Europeans settled in Australia. What does everybody else think? COF6160 (talk) 01:59, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you dispute the titles of these pages? - HappyWaldo (talk) 05:03, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Hmm, yes, I agreed with you when I first read your comment COF6160, but it seems that 'prehistory' just means "the span of time before recorded history or the invention of writing systems". Probably an argument to be made re the written record, but still, this heading is probably reasonably correct, in these terms, and should stay. Sam Wilson 05:16, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Going through the prehistory page it seems there already is already a debate about what constitutes 'written history' as paintings and designs may also fall into 'written history' if they could be interpreted as a form of language [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prehistory#Not_quite_correct. see here] and here.. This is a whole separate debate which I'll let the experts battle it out. However, it still doesn't sound right to me to call everything prior to European settlement as prehistory especially considering the Aboriginal people/culture/traditions etc still exists to this day. They recorded their history through their tradition of oral stories and paintings so it seems dismissive to ignore how they passed on their history in favour of the European tradition. Even if it is implied with 'prehistory', I still think we should emphasize with a pre-European settlement heading. COF6160 (talk) 04:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Pre-history I think achieves an acceptable WP:NPOV title in relation to the period before settlement, and that the enduring Aboriginal cultural aspectss should be recognised as such within the other sections section, including politics Gnangarra 06:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

 * This is, if you would excuse me for saying so, not releveant here - it should be at WP:AWNB - as it has relevance across the whole Australian project - not one location, otherwise there is, I suspect a serious issue arising from WP:UNDUE SatuSuro 05:01, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Why dont we just remove the prehistory title, history starts at the beginning and then highlights major shifts. It covers aboriginal settlement, exploration etc, then the first subsection is settlement and so on. Gnangarra 13:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

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Climate
I was sure that articles like this have climate down the other end - it seems far too high above other information which by practice should come earlier in the article - anyone with any thoughts on this ?? JarrahTree 12:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Fremantle


text:
Talk:Boston Massacre

Lawyers
This point was tagged for clarification 2 1/2 years ago. It seems to say that Loyalist lawyers would not defend a British soldier. This doesn't make sense without further explanation. I am tagging it anew as non sequitur. If it hasn't been explained a month from now, I will delete the portion of the sentence which doesn't make sense. Humpster (talk) 06:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

"Boston Incident" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Boston_Incident&redirect=no Boston Incident] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Boston Massacre


text:
Specialist Crime Directorate (Metropolitan Police)

The Specialist Crime Directorate (SCD) was one of the main branches of London's Metropolitan Police Service. It provided highly visible specialist policing services across the whole of London. Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley had previously led the directorate but it was later led by Assistant Commissioner Cressida Dick. The Directorate led national police agency with regard to specialist crime investigations such as e-crime, sex crimes (paedophile unit) or kidnappings, hostage-taking and contract killings.

The Specialist Crime Directorate was merged with Central Operations to create Specialist Crime & Operations, which was itself later split, with Operations now in Met Operations and Specialist Crime part of Frontline Policing Headquarters within Frontline Policing.

It encompassed several departments:

 * Air Support Unit
 * Child Abuse Investigation Command
 * Computer Crime and Cybercrime
 * Covert Policing
 * Crime Academy
 * Dog support unit
 * Emergency Preparedness
 * Film Unit
 * Fingerprint Services
 * Forensic Services
 * Homicide and Serious Crime
 * Human Exploitation
 * Marine Policing
 * Met Intelligence Bureau
 * Mounted Branch
 * Overseas Visitors Registration
 * Rape & Serious Sexual Assault
 * Serious and Organised Crime
 * Specialist & Economic Crime
 * Territorial Support Group
 * Traffic Criminal Justice Unit
 * Traffic Operational Command
 * Trident Gang Crime Command