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Pasty

A pasty is a British baked pastry, a traditional variety of which is particularly associated with Cornwall, South West England, but has spread all over the British Isles, and elsewhere through the Cornish diaspora. It is made by placing an uncooked filling, typically meat and vegetables, in the middle of a flat shortcrust pastry circle, bringing the edges together in the middle, and crimping over the top to form a seal before baking.

The traditional Cornish pasty, which since 2011 has had Protected Geographical Indication (PGI) status in Europe, is filled with beef, sliced or diced potato, swede (also known as yellow turnip or rutabaga – referred to in Cornwall and other parts of the West Country as turnip) and onion, seasoned with salt and pepper, and baked. Today, the pasty is the food most associated with Cornwall. It is a traditional dish and accounts for 6% of the Cornish food economy. Pasties with many different fillings are made, and some shops specialise in selling pasties.

The origins of the pasty are unclear, though there are many references to them throughout historical documents and fiction. The pasty is now popular worldwide because of the spread of Cornish miners and sailors from across Cornwall, and variations can be found in Australia, Mexico, the United States, Ulster and elsewhere.

History

Despite the modern pasty's strong association with Cornwall, its origins are unclear. The English word "pasty" derives from Medieval French (O.Fr. paste from V.Lat pasta ) for a pie, filled with venison, salmon or other meat, vegetables or cheese, baked without a dish. Pasties have been mentioned in cookbooks throughout the ages. For example, the earliest version of Le Viandier (Old French) has been dated to c. 1300 and contains several pasty recipes. In 1393, Le Menagier de Paris contains recipes for pasté with venison, veal, beef, or mutton.

Other early references to pasties include a 13th-century charter that was granted by King John of England (in 1208) to the town of Great Yarmouth. The town was bound to send to the sheriffs of Norwich every year one hundred herrings, baked in twenty four pasties, which the sheriffs delivered to the lord of the manor of East Carlton who then conveyed them to the king. Around the same time, 13th-century chronicler Matthew Paris wrote of the monks of St Albans Abbey "according to their custom, lived upon pasties of flesh-meat". In 1465, 5,500 venison pasties were served at the installation feast of George Neville, archbishop of York and chancellor of England. The earliest reference for a pasty in Devon or Cornwall can be found in Plymouth city records of 1509/10, which describe "Itm for the cooke is labor to make the pasties 10d". They were even eaten by royalty, as a letter from a baker to Henry VIII's third wife Jane Seymour confirms: "...hope this pasty reaches you in better condition than the last one ..." In his diaries written in the mid-17th century, Samuel Pepys makes several references to his consumption of pasties, for instance "dined at Sir W. Pen's ... on a damned venison pasty, that stunk like a devil", but after this period the use of the word outside Devon and Cornwall declined.

In contrast to its earlier place amongst the wealthy, during the 17th and 18th centuries, the pasty became popular with working people in Cornwall and west Devon, where tin miners and others adopted it because of its unique shape, forming a complete meal that could be carried easily and eaten without cutlery. In a mine, the pasty's dense, folded pastry could stay warm for several hours, and if it did get cold, it could easily be warmed on a shovel over a candle.

Side-crimped pasties gave rise to the suggestion that the miner might have eaten the pasty holding the thick edge of pastry, which was later discarded, thereby ensuring that dirty fingers (possibly including traces of arsenic) did not touch the food or mouth. However, many old photographs show that pasties were wrapped in bags made of paper or muslin and were eaten from end to end; according to the earliest Cornish recipe book, published in 1929, this is "the true Cornish way" to eat a pasty. Another theory suggests that pasties were marked at one end with an initial and then eaten from the other end so that if not finished in one sitting, they could easily be reclaimed by their owners.

Cornish pasty

The pasty is regarded as the national dish of Cornwall,  and an early reference is from a New Zealand newspaper:"In Cornwall, there is a common practice among those cottagers who bake at home of making little pasties for the dinners of those who may be working at a distance in the fields. They will last the whole week, and are made of any kind of meat or fruit, rolled up in a paste made of flour and suet or lard. A couple of ounces of bacon and half a-pound of raw potatoes, both thinly sliced and slightly seasoned, will be found sufficient for the meal. The pasty can be carried in the man's pocket." The term "Cornish pasty" has been in use since at least the early 1860s:"The Cornish pasty, which so admirably comprises a dinner in itself—meat, potatoes, and other good things well cooked and made up into so portable a form—was a subject of much admiration, and reminded me of the old coaching days, when I secured a pasty at Bodmin in order to take it home to my cook, that it might be dissected and serve as a pattern for Cornish pasties in quite another part of the country."

"Cornish pasties are very popular with the working classes in this neighbourhood, and have lately been successfully introduced into some parts of Devonshire. They are made of small pieces of beef, and thin slices of potato, highly peppered, and enclosed in wrappers of paste."

By the late 19th century, national cookery schools began to teach their pupils to create their own version of a "Cornish pasty" that was smaller and was to be eaten as an "economical savoury nibble for polite middle-class Victorians".

On 20 July 2011, after a nine-year campaign by the Cornish Pasty Association (CPA) – the trade organisation of about 50 pasty makers based in Cornwall – the name "Cornish pasty" was awarded Protected Geographical Indication (PGI) status by the European Commission. According to the PGI status, a Cornish pasty should be shaped like a 'D' and crimped on one side, not on the top. Its ingredients should include beef, swede (called turnip in Cornwall), potato and onion, with a light seasoning of salt and pepper, keeping a chunky texture. The pastry should be golden and retain its shape when cooked and cooled. The PGI status also means that Cornish pasties must be prepared in Cornwall. They do not have to be baked in Cornwall, nor do the ingredients have to come from the county, though the CPA notes that there are strong links between pasty production and local suppliers of the ingredients. Packaging for pasties that conform to the requirements includes an authentication stamp, the use of which is policed by the CPA.

Producers outside Cornwall objected to the PGI award, with one saying "[EU bureaucrats could] go to hell", and another that it was "protectionism for some big pasty companies to churn out a pastiche of the real iconic product". Major UK supermarkets Asda and Morrisons both stated they would be affected by the change, as did nationwide bakery chain Greggs, though Greggs was one of seven companies allowed to continue to use the name "Cornish pasty" during a three-year transitional period.

Members of the CPA made about 87 million pasties in 2008, amounting to sales of £60 million (about 6% of the food economy of Cornwall). In 2011, over 1,800 permanent staff were employed by members of the CPA and some 13,000 other jobs benefited from the trade. Surveys by the South West tourism board have shown that one of the top three reasons people visit Cornwall is the food and that the Cornish pasty is the food most associated with Cornwall.

Definition and ingredients

The recipe for a Cornish pasty, as defined by its protected status, includes diced or minced beef, onion, potato and swede in rough chunks along with some "light peppery" seasoning. The cut of beef used is generally skirt steak. Swede is sometimes called turnip in Cornwall, but the recipe requires use of actual swede, not turnip. Pasty ingredients are usually seasoned with salt and pepper, depending on individual taste. The use of carrot in a traditional Cornish pasty is frowned upon, though it does appear regularly in recipes.

The type of pastry used is not defined, as long as it is golden in colour and will not crack during the cooking or cooling, although modern pasties almost always use a shortcrust pastry. There is a humorous belief that the pastry on a good pasty should be strong enough to withstand a drop down a mine shaft, and indeed the barley flour that was usually used does make hard dense pastry.

Variations
Although the officially protected Cornish pasty has a specific ingredients list, old Cornish cookery books show that pasties were generally made from whatever food was available. Indeed, the earliest recorded pasty recipes include venison, not beef. "Pasty" has always been a generic name for the shape and can contain a variety of fillings, including stilton, vegetarian and even chicken tikka. Pork and apple pasties are readily available in shops throughout Cornwall and Devon, with the ingredients including an apple flavoured sauce, mixed together throughout the pasty, as well as sweet pasties with ingredients such as apple and fig or chocolate and banana, which are common in some areas of Cornwall.

A part-savoury, part-sweet pasty (similar to the Bedfordshire clanger) was eaten by miners in the 19th century, in the copper mines on Parys Mountain, Anglesey. The technician who did the research and discovered the recipe claimed that the recipe was probably taken to Anglesey by Cornish miners travelling to the area looking for work. No two-course pasties are commercially produced in Cornwall today, but are usually the product of amateur cooks. They are, however, commercially available in the British supermarket chain Morrisons (under the name 'Tin Miner Pasty'). Other traditional fillings have included a wide variety of locally available meats including pork, bacon, egg, rabbit, chicken, mackerel and sweet fillings such as dates, apples, jam and sweetened rice - leading to the oft-quoted joke that 'the Devil hisself was afeared to cross over into Cornwall for fear that ee'd end up in a pasty'.

A pasty is known as a "tiddy oggy" when steak is replaced with an extra potato, "tiddy" meaning potato and "oggy" meaning pasty and was eaten when times were hard and expensive meat could not be afforded. Another traditional meatless recipe is 'herby pie' with parsley, freshly gathered wild green herbs and chives, ramsons or leeks and a spoonful of clotted cream.

Shape
Whilst the PGI rules state that a Cornish pasty must be a "D" shape, with crimping along the curve (i.e., side-crimped), crimping is variable within both Devon and Cornwall, with some advocating a side crimp while others maintain that a top crimp is more authentic. Some sources state that the difference between a Devon and a Cornish pasty is that a Devon pasty has a top-crimp and is oval in shape, whereas the Cornish pasty is semicircular and side-crimped along the curve. However, pasties with a top crimp have been made in Cornwall for generations, yet those Cornish bakers who favour this method now find that they cannot legally call their pasties "Cornish". Paul Hollywood, writing for BBC Food, stated that a traditional Cornish pasty should have about 20 crimps.

Legal aspects
In 2001, a small American grocery and caterer in Gaylord, Michigan, Albie's Food, Inc., was sent a cease and desist letter from another US-based food company, The J.M. Smucker Company, accusing Albie's of violating their intellectual property rights to the "sealed crustless sandwich". Instead of capitulating, Albie's took the case to federal court, noting in their filings that a pocket sandwich with crimped edges and no crust was called a "pasty" and had been a popular dish in northern Michigan since the nineteenth century. The Federal Court determined that Albie's Foods did not infringe on J.M. Smucker's intellectual property rights and was allowed to continue.

In other regions

Migrating Devonian and Cornish miners and their families (colloquially known as Cousin Jacks and Cousin Jennies) helped to spread pasties into the rest of the world during the 19th century. As tin mining in Devon and Cornwall began to decline, miners took their expertise and traditions to new mining regions around the world. As a result, pasties can be found in many regions, including:

 * Many parts of Australia, including the Yorke Peninsula, which has been the site of an annual Cornish festival (claimed to be the world's largest) since 1973. A clarification of the Protected Geographical Status ruling has confirmed that pasties made in Australia are still allowed to be called "Cornish Pasties".
 * A Lancashire pasty is a traditional variant originating in Lancashire, especially West Lancashire that is similar to its Cornish counterpart but uses carrot instead of swede.
 * Pasties can be found in California in many historical Gold Rush towns, such as Grass Valley and Nevada City.
 * The pasty has become a cultural symbol of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Pasty shops are a significant tourist attraction in the region. Additionally, the village of Calumet is home to an annual Pasty Festival. Many ethnic groups adopted the pasty for use in the Copper Country copper mines; the Finnish immigrants to the region mistook it for the traditional piirakka and kukko pastries. The pasty has become strongly associated with all cultures in this area and in the Iron Range in northern Minnesota.
 * Mineral Point, Wisconsin, was the site of the first mineral rush in the United States during the 1830s. After lead was discovered in Mineral Point, many of the early miners migrated from Cornwall to this southwestern Wisconsin area. Pasties can be found in Wisconsin's largest cities, Madison and Milwaukee, as well as in the far northern region along the border with Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
 * A similar local history about the arrival of the pasty in the area with an influx of Welsh and Cornish miners to the area's copper mines, and its preservation as a local delicacy, is found in Butte, Montana, "The Richest Hill on Earth". Miners referred to the pasty as a "letter from 'ome."
 * The anthracite coal region of Northeastern Pennsylvania, including Wilkes-Barre, Scranton, and Hazleton, had an influx of miners to the area in the 19th century and brought the pasty with them. In 1981, a Pennsylvania entrepreneur started marketing pasties under the brand name Mr. Pastie.
 * Mexico City pastie.JPG"]]The Mexican state of Hidalgo and the twin silver mining cities of Pachuca and Real del Monte (Mineral del Monte) have notable Cornish influences from the Cornish miners who settled there, with pasties being considered typical local cuisine. In Mexican Spanish, they are referred to as pastes. A pasty museum is located in Real del Monte. The annual International Pasty Festival is held in Real del Monte each October.
 * They are also popular in South Africa, New Zealand, and Ulster.
 * Pasties were modified with different spices and fillings in Jamaica, giving rise to the Jamaican patty.

Literature
Pasties have been mentioned in multiple literary works since the 12th century Arthurian romance Erec and Enide, written by Chrétien de Troyes, in which they are eaten by characters from the area now known as Cornwall. There is a mention in Havelok the Dane, another romance written at the end of the thirteenth century; in the 14th century Robin Hood tales; and in two plays by William Shakespeare.

Superstitions, rhymes and chants
In the tin mines of Devon and Cornwall, pasties were associated with "knockers", spirits said to create a knocking sound that was either supposed to indicate the location of rich veins of ore, or to warn of an impending tunnel collapse. To encourage the good will of the knockers, miners would leave a small part of the pasty within the mine for them to eat. Sailors and fisherman would likewise discard a crust to appease the spirits of dead mariners, though fishermen believed that it was bad luck to take a pasty aboard ship.

A Cornish proverb, recounted in 1861, emphasised the great variety of ingredients that were used in pasties by saying that the devil would not come into Cornwall for fear of ending up as a filling in one. A West Country schoolboy playground-rhyme current in the 1940s concerning the pasty went: "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, ate a pasty five feet long, Bit it once, Bit it twice, Oh my Lord, it's full of mice." In 1959 the English singer-songwriter Cyril Tawney wrote a nostalgic song called "The Oggie Man". The song tells of the pasty-seller with his characteristic vendor's call who was always outside Plymouth's Devonport Naval Dockyard gates late at night when the sailors were returning, and his replacement by hot dog sellers after World War II.

The word "oggy" in the internationally popular chant "Oggy Oggy Oggy, Oi Oi Oi" is thought to stem from Cornish dialect "hoggan", deriving from "hogen" the Cornish word for pasty. When the pasties were ready for eating, the bal maidens at the mines would supposedly shout down the shaft "Oggy Oggy Oggy" and the miners would reply "Oi Oi Oi".

Giant pasties
As the 'national dish' of Cornwall, several oversized versions of the pasty have been created in the county. For example, a giant pasty is paraded from Polruan to Fowey through the streets during regatta week. Similarly, a giant pasty is paraded around the ground of the Cornish Pirates rugby team on St Piran's Day before it is passed over the goal posts.

title: Pasty


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England (reopened)
(Moved from up there ↑ somewhere)
 * I note that by changing 'Great Britain' and 'United Kingdom' to 'England' in this article I have inadvertently stumbled across an argument. But the facts are simple: Great Britain is not a country, it's an island. The United Kingdom is not a country, it's a sovereign state. To quote WP on UK, : "The UK consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." QED. Cooke (FRGS) Cooke (talk) 16:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to UK – yes, GB is not a country, but the UK patently is a country. I'm not sure why it's important to have a 'country' anyway, since the infobox states "place of origin". Also, I'm not sure why you think the UK being a sovereign state would disqualify it from being in the infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (e/c) The UK is a country, by many definitions; England is also a country, by many definitions. There is not one single definition of "country", as has been shown by innumerable discussions on many pages here in the past - there are many definitions of the word.  It makes perfect sense to say that the UK is a country consisting of four countries (or three countries and part of another country) - just as it makes perfect sense to say that the US is a state consisting of 50 states.  So, it's perfectly acceptable to include either England or the UK in the infobox - but not Great Britain. Whether Cornwall is part of England is, of course, a whole different argument.  :-)  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And while there's some apparent debate about whether Cornwall is part of England or not, there's no question that it's part of the UK. I suggest 'UK' causes fewer edit wars, and furthermore other parts of the UK, such as Wales, also have a long history of pasty-making. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:44, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Bretonbanquet. I've just been looking over this page and I greatly approve of your censure of ludicrous notions (imho) of two-course pasties and 'the right' way of crimping. But I disagree with you over this one. The UK is not a country - I've quoted WP to show this. England is. Sure, you could write, 'Valparaiso is a city in the Americas', but it's a lot more useful to say 'Valparaiso is a city in Chile'. Probably more people recognize 'England' than 'United Kingdom'. So what's your beef? Do you want, in all articles about kilts, and tartan, and haggis, and RLS, to remove 'Scotland' and insert 'United Kingdom'? How will that help? I don't understand your agenda. Are you a Cornish nationalist? I'm from Belfast, and I've always had an Irish passport, but for the past ten years or so Northern Ireland has been a country in the United Kingdom, whether I think that's what it should be or not. So please explain what sound reason you have for changing the helpful, correct and precise 'England' to the unhelpful, vague 'United Kingdom'? This is supposed to be an encycolpedia, not a soapbox. Cooke (talk) 16:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Not answering for BB, but I expect that, like me, he's aware of a lot of past disquiet and toing-and-froing over whether it's acceptable or not to describe Cornwall, at least in cultural terms, as part of England. It's almost as debatable as whether it's acceptable to call Northern Ireland a "country". However, it's certainly true that Cornwall is not necessarily the only area that has a claim over pasties - they were widespread in England in past centuries. It's equally true, as I said earlier, that it is absolutely fine and unarguably (I thought) correct to describe the UK as a country.  And please don't accuse anyone of having an "agenda" - it's unhelpful and simply provokes more heat than light.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree 100% with BB and Ghmyrtle. The UK is a country.  Best to read the whole United Kingdom article, viz, "Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and (more controversially) Northern Ireland are also referred to as 'countries', although they are not actual sovereign states."  Logical Cowboy (talk) 17:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (e/c) Thanks for your comments, Cooke. Certainly the UK is a country – the second sentence of the UK wikipedia article states it, and I think one would have a very hard time trying to prove that the UK is not a country. Again, I'm not sure why that matters here anyway. As Ghmyrtle has said, it's an unfortunate fact that some terms cause more edit-warring than others, and that is a consideration here for those of us who have to clean up the mess.
 * I don't have any kind of agenda, and you'll see around Wikipedia that I have argued for and against the use of the various terms to describe Cornwall/England/UK/GB etc. You say 'England' is "helpful, correct and precise", and 'UK' is not – that's your opinion, and I'm sure you'll accept that others feel differently. My main issue with this particular infobox is not whether Cornwall is part of England or the UK or whatever – the issue is where pasties come from. That fact is not easily pinned down. While Cornwall may be closely associated with the pasty, pasty-making has existed in all parts of the UK for an extremely long time. If its not acceptable to consider Cornwall the place of origin of the pasty (and I am OK with that), then it has to be a wider area than simply England. If people agree that it's only Cornwall that we're talking about, then we can just put 'Cornwall', but it's a stretch to say that Cornwall invented the pasty, and that also causes some edit-warring. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok breton. I can't be bothered, frankly. I've more important things to do. I accept your point the the pasty comes from a variety of places - it's a good point. But the article as it stands is misleading and confusing to a non-british readership (the vast majority). If you are determined to keep it that way, that's up to you. Cooke (talk) 17:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If it's confusing to people who don't know what the UK is, then it's not the job of Wikipedia editors to cater for that, no matter where they come from. I do object though, to the implication that I am perpetuating an inferior version of this article (specifically through some kind of agenda), and it might be best that you don't repeat it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)\

 * That sounds like a threat, breton. I notice that neither you nor anyone else have addressed, much less answered, my crucial point, which I'll repeat: "Sure, you could write, 'Valparaiso is a city in the Americas', but it's a lot more useful to say 'Valparaiso is a city in Chile'. ... Do you want, in all articles about kilts, and tartan, and haggis, and RLS, to remove 'Scotland' and insert 'United Kingdom'? How will that help?" I'd be very happy if the article said 'various parts of the west of England and Wales, particularly associated with the counties of Cornwall, Merionethshire and Fife..." or whatever. Actually, pasties are also made - you must know this BB - around Ploubain and Plougrescant in Brittany. There was an article about this in PPC in the fifties. So maybe we should put "Western Europe"? At least we can all agree on that! Cooke (talk) 18:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Well, don't forget to assume good faith. I haven't addressed your Valparaiso example because it misses the point. Whether Cornwall is in England or not is irrelevant. Pasties don't just come from Cornwall, and they don't just come from England. If haggis came from other parts of the UK, your example might be a similar one to this. As I say, if it can be proven that pasties definitely originated in Cornwall, then we can just put 'Cornwall'. But I suspect we can't verify that. I suspect it isn't even true. If you want to open up the infobox 'place of origin' field to places outside the UK, then maybe we can – let's see if anyone agrees, but remember that the infobox aims for generality. Personally, I'd prefer the field didn't exist. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Oggy oggy oggy...
Just had to say - the bit in the article about bal maidens standing at the top of the mineshaft calling "Oggy oggy oggy" to which the miners replied "oi oi oi" as they came to collect the pasties dropped down to them by the women - this is a joke right? It's so ludicrous I can't believe someone would even write it... (Maryjane22 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It comes from this Australian newspaper article, so I'll tag it with a dubious source tag for the moment, and see if anyone comes up with a better source for the claim - if not, it can be removed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

What I meant was that mineshafts were/are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet deep. The deepest, Robinson's Shaft at Dolcoath in Camborne, was 3300ft deep. After descending, miners would walk sometimes long distances to get to their area of work; my point is that once you were down there, you could hear no noise from the surface and also, anything thrown down the shaft would be smashed to pieces against the walls long before it hit the bottom. To be fair, the article you cite does not mention pasties being thrown down shafts, it refers to the call of travelling pasty sellers. I don't know whether such sellers ever existed, but I think that the word 'oggy' is of fairly recent usage in Cornwall and on the whole, disliked by Cornish people. I never heard my parents or grandparents use the word and I would not say that it is generally used even now, usually it is visitors and people who have moved from elsewhere to live in Cornwall who say 'oggy'. In the article, there is a reference to the song by Cyril Tawney about a pasty seller; Cyril was a Devon man, so perhaps 'oggy' is a Devon word which has crept over the border. One last thing, pasties now seem to have become associated almost entirely with miners, as if they were exclusively created for and used by them. The pasty was originally (and still is of course) the perfect 'packed lunch' and was eaten by farm workers, clay workers and all types of working people (the only exception being apparently, fishermen, who considered it unlucky to take a pasty on board boat). School children would take pasties to school and if they were lucky, the pasties would be warmed up on the school's iron stove so that could have them hot for dinner. My father used to say that the smell of the pasties warming would distract from his lessons - not that that was very difficult I gather! Having said that, a cold pasty is still a delicious thing; if a pasty could not be finished when hot, it would be saved for supper and enjoyed cold. (Maryjane22 (talk) 09:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC))
 * I agree with every word of that, and I'll add that this article used to claim that pasties had hard pastry so they could withstand being thrown down mineshafts – till I took it out. There's a terrible tendency for people to add urban myths and old wives' tales to this article, and worse, they're often backed up by plausible sources. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

This is the problem. It is not enough to quote an article from a newspaper or magazine or other online site and present it as a fact. Hardly ever do the original articles cite properly detailed and authenticated sources and yet they are repeated as if they were gospel. For example, how do we know that miners held their pasty by the crimp? I've seen several old photos of miners underground eating their pasties 'end to end', held in paper or a piece of cloth, but not even one of anyone holding it by the crimp. Again, an online Cornish-English dictionary gives the meaning of "hogan" as "hawthorn" and gives "pasti" for "pasty"; this is similar to the Welsh "pastai", meaning "pie or pasty". I just mean that if a statement cannot be properly and reliably referenced and sourced, then it probably is as Bretonbanquet says, an urban myth. There is a relevant quote in this week's Radio Times p9; "Senator Daniel Moynihan once told Americans that they were entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts". I'm not sure why people want to create theories and stories about the pasty, it's just an item of food. Is there any other foodstuff anywhere in the world to have been the subject of so much myth and legend? (Maryjane22 (talk) 11:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC))

I vaguely remember a reference to "Oggie" being naval slang for a pasty in a Douglas Reeman book. That would be a long time before there were all intarwebs and stuff.

But I too have heard the salesman theory of the chant - it enables the seller & buyer to home in on each other in narrow city streets.

The dropping down a mineshaft idea is dumb. Even before the obsession with risk assessment the idea that there'd a be a hole in the ground you could just walk up to is ludicrous. Anyone who's actually seen a mine would know that you can't even see the shaft - there's all the winding gear on top of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.128.172.225 (talk) 13:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Categories.
Are the amount of categories this article is in a bit overkill?--Porthenys (talk) 17:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree; the article makes little or no reference to the United States, Australia or New Zealand, yet they account for more than half the categories. Pac if ic Bo y  04:56, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Opening line
I disagree that 'pasty' and 'Cornish pasty' are synonymous, especially in the UK. I've always thought that the latter is a variety of the former, made with specific ingredients. A cheese and onion pasty isn't a Cornish pasty but one made with beef and diced veg usually is, regardless of where they're made.  VEO one five 22:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

 * They are, of course, synonymous in Cornwall. Also, one could argue that the pasty originated in Cornwall, and that all other types of pasty are varieties of the original "Cornish" pasty. It would be hard to verify that one preceeded the other. That said, I'm sure the beef/veg version predates the cheese and onion version. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

 * I was using cheese and onion as an example, my point is that pasties may originate in Cornwall but they aren't all considered to be the traditional Cornish variety. The article does have its own section on what most strictly consider to be a Cornish pasty; not just any old filling wrapped in pastry.  VEO one five 03:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

 * It's not true either that the only pasties served in Cornwall are meat and veg pasties - there are plenty of veggie pasties, crab pasties, etc. etc. available there.  How about: "A pasty... is a baked pastry with a savoury filling, traditionally associated with Cornwall.  It is made by placing uncooked filling — typically and traditionally of meat and vegetables though many varieties are now widely available — on a flat pastry circle and folding it to wrap the filling, crimping the edge to form a seal..... "  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:58, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest that an item of food made by putting meat, fish, vegetables or fruit etc on a piece of pastry, sealing it and then cooking it by one or another means is an ancient and international method of preparing a conveniently portable meal. We know that such meals have been prepared and eaten in the UK for centuries and have been called pasties, turnovers and a dozen other things for all I know. In the days when working class families ate only what was available and what they could afford, it's probably safe to say that almost anything would have been used to make pies, pasties or turnovers. Cornwall would have been no different. I have an old cookbook of my mother's, produced locally by a Cornish W.I. which gives recipes for pasties using rabbit, fish, pork or bacon. The families of miners, farmers, clay workers, fishermen etc were poor; pasties were working men's food and wives and mothers, like working class women everywhere, used what they could to provide good, nourishing food. In those days, Cornwall was a very poor and remote county, so maybe Cornish women had to be even more resourceful; it was said that the Devil would never cross the Tamar into Cornwll for fear that he would be put into a pasty! At some point (and I would suggest that it was relatively recently, maybe the early nineteenth century?) what is now referred to as a Cornish pasty became the default recipe and was subsequently taken by Cornish miners to other parts of the world. It is true that the Cornish do not refer to a pasty as a Cornish pasty (anymore than they refer to it as an 'oggy'), it's just a pasty. If you are going to buy a veggie or a cheese pasty, you'd call it that. To the Cornish, a pasty is made with raw beef, potatoes and onion, with a bit of turnip (swede to the non-Cornish)if you like it. Within families, other things may be added or left out for individual preferences - my uncle liked a bit of chopped up kidney in his pasty - and that's why an initial may be put on the pasty so that each family member gets the one meant for him or her. I don't think we can claim that the pasty originated in Cornwall, but the Cornish pasty, with raw beef and vegetables, obviously did. We also should remember that the shop pasties bought in their millions by tourists come in infinite varieties, but in Cornish homes, only the traditional recipe is made, variously tweaked for individual family members as I have described. If a Cornish woman offers to make you a pasty, that's what you'll get. I made my first pasty when I was seven years old, at my mother's kitchen table and since then, I must have made thousands! Generally, pasties were made once a week for the midday meal, often on a Saturday and many Cornish families still adhere to this tradition. I still do, although these days there's usually only me to eat it! (Maryjane22 (talk) 09:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
 * @Maryjane22. That's very interesting.  However, please be aware that these pages are not a forum for discussing interesting thoughts.  They are a place to discuss improvements to the article, and those improvements should be based on reliable sources, rather than suggestions or personal opinions.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:42, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I had only intended to contribute towards the discussion; much of what we now take as 'fact' about the humble pasty is actually based on conjecture and guesswork rather than 'reliable sources'. I now feel appropriately patronised.(Maryjane22 (talk) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC))

Well said Maryjane22! The article puts far too much emphasis on the 'Cornish' over the 'pasty' - being half Cornish and half Devon i just dont see why the article is so exclusive - having made them in London (to the traditional Cornish/Devon recipe) i am inundated with comments from my European colleagues as to how they have them too - but they call them 'X' or 'Y' - similar dishes exist in Spain (empanada - different fillings but look identical), Sicily & Italy (separately) and Poland (made with lamb i believe- dont remember the name) not to mention the various regional British versions ( Bridie Bedfordshire Clanger etc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nenniu (talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * All of which a) are not pasties, and b) have their own articles. If this article is "exclusive", it's because it's strictly about the pasty, not any of the other variants. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * See also See also. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Came here to say something similar, the article reads like an attempt to annex "pasty" to mean a Cornish Pasty. Viewed through the lens of controversy surrounding the geographic protection of the "Cornish Pasty" it seems blatantly revisionist. There is even a reference to an "official pasty" under variations (which is unsurprisingly of the Cornish variety.)

The vast majority of pasties in the UK are not Cornish, and are visually and culinarily distinct from Cornish pasties. No one would consider it acceptable to re-write the article on Cheese to refer specifically to Cheddar with only a begrudging footnote to acknowledge plethora of alternatives. Serious NPOV issues IMHO --86.140.100.93 (talk) 12:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

 * I've changed "official pasty" to "officially protected Cornish pasty", for clarification. I have some sympathy with your opinion, but it needs reliable sources about non-Cornish pasties before anything similar can be included in the article, I think.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Useful sources of information
Having looked at the list of references at the end of the article, it seems that not all of them are as trustworthy as might be hoped. A good number, especially newspaper and magazine articles from both the UK and abroad, seem to do little more than perpetuate the misinformation currently presented as fact about the pasty and its origins. For serious students of the history of Cornish food, I thought it would be useful to suggest two very valuable sources of information:

WRIGHT, Mary, 'Cornish Treats' (Alison Hodge, 1986)

HAMILTON JENKIN, A.K., 'Cornwall and its People' (first published J M Dent 1945). There is a whole chapter entitled 'Food - Ordinary and Extraordinary.'

The latter title is a composite work of three titles originally published separately and is an invaluable source of information for anyone keen to know more about the true history of Cornwall and the Cornish. Both the titles I have listed are unfortunately out of print but are available from various online booksellers etc. I hope that this information will prove to be of use to interested parties. (Primrosewoods (talk) 14:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC))

Ketchup!
How do I not see any mention of ketchup in this article? I eat pasties with my grandma from the U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) and it's practically unheard of to eat these things without ketchup! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sloth monkey (talk • contribs) 07:38, 8 April 2014
 * Find a source that says that, please...  Here in the UK, eating a good pasty with ketchup would be considered gross barbarism.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * We did it as kids...--Somchai Sun (talk) 11:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

They do shocking things to pastys in the states- the man v food episide featuring butte pastys had me speechless: they were upside down meat pies with chilli con carne and processed cheese dolloped on top! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.60.209.146 (talk) 11:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Peter Brears
Brears' comments on the origins of the pasty have been widely reported in reliable sources -, , , , , etc. Brears is a respected food historian with many publications - - and is, for example, cited 10 times in the Oxford Companion to Food. So, his comments should be mentioned in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Is this the same 'Historian' who claims that haggis was invented in England?, in this article, http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/haggis-is-from-england-historian-claims-1-2972550 He obviously knows how to publicise his various books. Talskiddy (talk)
 * I'm sure he does. So do most published writers.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't mention him.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest that if he's a reliable source we should find out and report exactly what he himself has said, not rely on the press trying to make a story out of it again. From the Cornishman article, the interesting bit appears to be the claim that the term "Cornish pasty" was first used to refer to a small savoury nibble in the 1870s. We don't have a derivation for that term in the article. The earliest reference to it given by the OED is from Notes and Queries dated 1877 – "The Cornish pasty baked without a dish" – which may lend some credence. I think if nothing else, the mention should be moved into the "Cornish pasty" section.  —S MALL  JIM   10:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, a few minutes with Google Books indicates that if he has been reported correctly then he's not a very good historian. There are several references to "Cornish pasty" in a Cornish context that were published before the 1870s, e.g. this from Archaeologia Cambrensis of 1862 and this from Fraser's Magazine in 1867. —S MALL  JIM   12:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be a good idea to add those sources to the article, and only after that to mention Brears' comments. "... .Despite earlier evidence, Brears claimed in 2015 that...", etc.   I still think his comments are worth mentioning - but, if we can imply that he may be wrong, so much the better.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Ghmyrtle, the trouble I'm having with retaining the Brears stuff is that I find it quite hard to believe that a food historian with 27 published books would make a claim that's so obviously false. That makes me think that what he really said - or implied - is not quite what's been reported. But I'm not going to pay the £7 + p&p to buy a copy of "Petits Propos Culinaires" to check!
 * I've sidestepped the issue by rewording the start of the Cornish pasty section, and just included Brears as a ref together with another one I found from Phyllis Browne in the Newcastle Weekly Courant of 4 Oct 1890 (it's available free online with a UK library card, through Gale). Although Phyllis doesn't seem to be too sure what she's writing about, she does point out the difference between the "true Cornish pasty" and the "much-despised Cookery School recipe", which bears out some of what Brears says. Hope you think this is a reasonable compromise. —S MALL  JIM   16:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks OK to me, except that I've reverted your reintroduction of the name England - a point that has been discussed numerous times on numerous talk pages. The argument is that, if we say Cornwall is in England, we can't also say that the pasty is the "national dish" of Cornwall.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you read Brears comments, he appears to be playing 'Devils Advocate' a little. He also seems to take umbrage with the decision to give the Cornish pasty protected status. Hes quite happy to claim Yorkshire puddings for his home county, despite there being little evidence to support this theory. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/11041921/The-Kitchen-Thinker-the-history-of-Yorkshire-pudding.html. Also I cant find anywhere in his bio that states where he studied 'History'. Talskiddy (talk) 07:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If someone is routinely described as a "historian" in reliable sources, we go with that term - it's not up to us to research their academic credentials in detail. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

National dish
Just putting this heading up in case the IP who has been removing the term "national dish" wants to engage in any discussion. That's what numerous sources call it, and the term "nation" has many meanings. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm with the vandal on that particular point, it's just plain incorrect to refer to Cornwall as a nation, it is also non-neutral which is against policy. I'm tired of this article being used to push Cornish nationalist viewpoints, this is unacceptable on Wikipedia. I have clarified in the text that Cornish nationalists refer to it as the national dish, which is a verifiable fact, but I'm still not happy with this text and may revisit it later... —David Johnson (T|C) 13:10, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a very certain opinion on the meanings of the words "nation" and "country" - neither of which necessarily equate to "sovereign state" - and also to be certain about the motives of those writers of the sources referenced in the article which unequivocally refer to the pasty as Cornwall's "national dish". Unless you can come up with reliable sources that explicitly state that the pasty is not a national dish, your opinions may not carry as much weight as you hope.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

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The origin of pasties (in addition to pusties) may originally be from the pasticiotto pastry of Italy
I recently saw a printed ad for apple pie and pumpkin "pusties" from Caruso's bakery in Utica, NY. I'm from MI originally, where pasties (versus pusties) are well known meat pies of upstate tourism. In Wikipedia, "Pusty" redirects you to Pasticiotto (pastry), while the Wikipedia Pasty article says, "Despite the modern pasty's strong association with Cornwall (U.K.), its exact origins are unclear." I'm betting that the folks of Cornwall, England may have also used/modified the pasticiotti pastry for a meat pie versus a fruit pie (pusty). Abbreviating it as "pasti" would explain the name "pasties" (pronounced with a short A) that we've always known them by in Michigan--an even closer cognate than the "pusties" of Utica, NY. (There is also a plural form, "pasticiotti".) — Juliekadams (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Joan of Kent
In the picture at our Joan of Kent article, she’s holding what looks like a Cornish pasty. Is that what it is? Overlordnat1 (talk) 23:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Pasty


text:
User:Hermeneus

 japanese english meta commons wiksource (e) wiktionary (e) wikiquote (e)

Hermeneus is a Japanese Wikipedian who joined the English version of Wikipedia some time around February 26, 2003. His interests include analyric political philosophy (Charles Taylor, John Rawls, William E. Connolly, etc.), boxing, MMA, modern Japanese history, and Macintosh.

 * Editcounts: @ja.wikipedia.org, @en.wikipedia.org
 * Homepage.
 * Email hermeneus (via Wikipedia)

English articles

 * Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea
 * Japan-Republic of Korea Joint Declaration A New Japan-Republic of Korea Partnership towards the Twenty-first Century
 * List of war apology statements issued by Japan
 * Market share of government-approved Japanese history textbooks
 * On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the war's end
 * Resolution to renew the determination for peace on the basis of lessons learned from history
 * Ienaga Saburo
 * Japanese history textbook controversies

To be contributed

 * Japan Teachers Union

de:User:Hermeneus fr:User:Hermeneus ja:User:Hermeneus ko:User:Hermeneus zh:User:Hermeneus

title: User:Hermeneus


text:
Burning (disambiguation)

Burning is combustion, a high-temperature reaction between a fuel and an oxidant.

Burning or burnin' may also refer to:

Albums

 * Burnin' (Gil Grand album), 2002
 * Burnin' (Patti LaBelle album), 1991
 * Burnin' (Sonny Stitt album), 1960
 * Burnin' (Bob Marley and the Wailers album), 1973
 * Burnin' (John Lee Hooker album), 1962
 * Burning (album), a 1983 album by Shooting Star
 * Burning: A Wish, a 2001 album by Lacrimas Profundere

Songs

 * "Burnin'" (Cue song), 1997
 * "Burnin'" (instrumental), by Daft Punk from Homework, 1997
 * "Burnin'", by Carol Douglas, 1978
 * "Burnin'", by Calvin Harris & R3hab from Motion, 2014
 * "Burnin'", by Paul Johnson, 1987
 * "Burnin'", by The Bill Sheppard Combo, 1962
 * "Burning" (Accept song), from Breaker, 1981
 * "Burning" (Alcazar song), from Disco Defenders, 2009
 * "Burning" (Hitsujibungaku song), 2024
 * "Burning" (Maria Arredondo song), from Not Going Under, 2004
 * "Burning" (Sam Smith song), from The Thrill of It All, 2017
 * "Burning", by E.M.D. from Rewind, 2010
 * "Burning", by Mia Martina from Devotion, 2012
 * "Burning", by Monrose from Strictly Physical, 2007
 * "Burning", by Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark from the B-side of "Sailing on the Seven Seas", 1991
 * "Burning", by The War on Drugs from Lost in the Dream, 2014
 * "Burning", by Robbie Rivera, 2002

Other uses in arts, entertainment, and media

 * Burning (2021 film), a 2021 Australian documentary film directed by Eva Orner
 * Burning (2018 film), a 2018 South Korean drama film directed by Lee Chang-dong
 * "Burning" (short story), a 1978 story by Orson Scott Card

Technology

 * Burning, nuclear fusion
 * Burning, optical disc authoring
 * Dodging and burning, photographic techniques

Other uses

 * Death by burning, a form of execution
 * Defrauding
 * Dodging and burning
 * Sunburn

title: Burning (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:Burning (disambiguation)

'' The inappropriate redirect formerly on this page has been removed. --Jerzy•t 04:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC) ''

Removed "Burned"
I don't think readers are best served by "Burned" being a redirect to Combustion and then a link to this dab page. I have created a new dab page Burned, and removed appropriate entries from this dab page to it. PamD (talk) 10:11, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Burning (disambiguation)


text:
Iraqi opposition

The Iraqi opposition can refer to three things:
 * Pre-2003: Iraqi anti-Saddam groups were composed of a number of groups in Iraq opposed to the Saddam regime.
 * Occupation era: The collective term usually denoting Iraqi insurgency opposed to the American-led coalition forces and Iraqi security forces during the occupation of Iraq that followed the Iraq War on May 1, 2003.
 * Post-independence: After the handover of authority from the Coalition Provisional Authority to Iraqi leaders, the Iraqi opposition are the minority political parties and the Ba'athist insurgent groups.

title: Iraqi opposition


text:
Talk:Slippery slope

Article is still arguing with itself
The first citation is from an old message board post, which to the best of my knowledge is not considered a high quality source. It's not necessarily bad information, but I think this might explain why the article is incoherent and sparked arguments a few years ago.

"Slippery slope" is variously defined as a logical fallacy and simply a type of argument. This is reflected in the article's sources, which equivocates on the term, but is not explicitly stated in the article text. Instead, we get the claim that SSA is a fallacious argument, followed by a claim that this fallacious argument has varying degrees of strength, then another claim essentially admitting that not all SSAs are fallacious. This should be resolved by clearly differentiating between the two senses of the term, IF that is the angle the article should take. That's the question I'm posing here.

Another possibility would be to reserve this article for discussion of the fallacy, only mentioning the other uses of the term for the purpose of disambiguation.

Keep in mind that the audience isn't necessarily college-educated and may not be familiar with logical fallacies beyond having heard the term "ad hominem" once or twice. 2603:7081:1603:A300:2CC4:A198:82DB:C8BF (talk) 01:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Marking this resolved, since two editors have overhauled the lead considerably since the anon's concerns were posted above. If there's still an issue, please open a new thread about it with specifics.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Usage in law
We should cover this more and better, with reliable law sources. The primary usage of slippery slope to refer to arguments or concerns that are not innately fallacious is in law, where it is observed (for example) that eroding the protections of a right leads to further erosion of that and other rights. This sense of slippery slope is deeply embedded in US constitutional law, and the term may well have originated there. There could be some additional coverage of that in this article, and it would satisfy (at least to some extent) requests in an old thread to provide "examples" of when slippery slope is not a fallacy. (I warned of WP:NOR and WP:NOT in that thread, though: we are not in a position to claim that particular events qualify as slippery slopes that came true. But that is not the same thing as observing usage and application of the phrase in particular fields like law where the meaning is not "slippery slope fallacy" but "slippery slope argument/principle".)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

 * in general, some changes in life (including changes in point of view) are really the starting point for large-scale changes in the worldview in the future or for drastic changes in the way of action, in which case who is responsible for these unwanted changes? or is it a matter of metaphysics and causation? Derek Di My Mind (talk) 12:44, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Slippery slope


text:
Moderator

Moderator may refer to:

Government

 * Moderator (town official), elected official who presides over the Town Meeting form of government in various American states.

Internet

 * Internet forum moderator, a person given special authority to enforce the rules on a forum or social media platforms
 * Game moderator
 * Moderator of a Usenet newsgroup
 * Google Moderator, an application to assist chairmen of online meetings

Religion

 * Moderator of the General Assembly, the chairperson of the highest court in Presbyterian and Reformed churches
 * Moderators and clerks in the Church of Scotland, the chairperson of any of the courts of the Church of Scotland
 * Moderator of the curia, an administrative position in the Catholic church

Nuclear engineering

 * Neutron moderator, a medium that reduces the velocity of fast neutrons, for example in a nuclear reactor

Other uses

 * Moderator variable, in statistics, a qualitative or quantitative variable that affects the direction and/or strength of the relation between dependent and independent variables
 * Sound moderator, a suppressor attached to a firearm
 * A faction in the Regulator–Moderator War
 * Discussion moderator, a person who controls the tone of a discussion or debate

title: Moderator


text:
Frauenkirche, Dresden

The Frauenkirche (, Church of Our Lady) is a Lutheran church in Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony. Destroyed during the Allied firebombing of Dresden towards the end of World War II, the church was reconstructed between 1994 and 2005.

The current structure is the third church building to stand at this site. The earliest was founded as a Catholic church before being converted to Protestantism during the Reformation. It was replaced in the 18th century by a larger Baroque Lutheran building. Considered an outstanding example of Protestant sacred architecture, it featured one of the largest domes in Europe. It was originally built as a sign of the will of the citizens of Dresden to remain Protestant after their ruler had converted to Catholicism. Having been reconstructed, it now also serves as a symbol of reconciliation between former warring enemies.

After the destruction of the church in 1945, the remaining ruins were left for nearly half a century as a war memorial, following decisions of local East German leaders. Following the reunification of Germany, it was decided to rebuild the church, starting in 1994. The reconstruction of its exterior was completed in 2004, and the interior the following year. The church was reconsecrated on 30 October 2005 with festive services lasting through the Protestant observance of Reformation Day on 31 October. The surrounding Neumarkt square with its many valuable baroque buildings was also reconstructed in 2004.

The Frauenkirche is often called a cathedral, but it is not the seat of a bishop; the church of the Landesbischof of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Saxony is the Church of the Cross. Once a month, an Anglican Evensong is held in English, by clergy from St. George's Anglican Church, Berlin.

History
A church dedicated to 'Our Lady' (Kirche zu unser Liebfrauen) was first built in the 11th century in a Romanesque style, outside the city walls and surrounded by a graveyard. The Frauenkirche was the seat of an archpriest in the Meissen Diocese until the Reformation, when it became a Protestant church. This first Frauenkirche was torn down in 1727 and replaced by a new, larger church with a greater capacity. The Frauenkirche was re-built as a Lutheran (Protestant) parish church by the citizenry. Even though Saxony's Prince-elector, Frederick August I, had converted to Catholicism to become King of Poland, he supported the construction which not only gave an impressive cupola to the Dresden townscape but also reassured the Saxonians that their ruler was not going to force the principle cuius regio, eius religio upon them.

The original Baroque church was built between 1726 and 1743, and was designed by Dresden's city architect, George Bähr, who did not live to see the completion of his greatest work. Bähr's distinctive design for the church captured the new spirit of the Protestant liturgy by placing the altar, pulpit, and baptismal font directly centre in view of the entire congregation.

In 1736, famed organ maker Gottfried Silbermann built a three-manual, 43-stop instrument for the church. The organ was dedicated on 25 November and Johann Sebastian Bach gave a recital on the instrument on 1 December.

The church's most distinctive feature was its unconventional high dome, 67 m high, called die Steinerne Glocke or "Stone Bell". An engineering feat comparable to Michelangelo's dome for St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, the Frauenkirche's 12,000-ton sandstone dome stood high resting on eight slender supports. Despite initial doubts, the dome proved to be extremely stable. Witnesses in 1760 said that the dome had been hit by more than 100 cannonballs fired by the Prussian army led by Friedrich II during the Seven Years' War. The projectiles bounced off and the church survived.

The completed church gave the city of Dresden a distinctive silhouette, captured in famous paintings by Bernardo Bellotto, a nephew of the artist Canaletto (also known by the same name), and in Dresden by Moonlight (1839) by Norwegian painter Johan Christian Dahl.

In 1849, the church was at the heart of the revolutionary disturbances known as the May Uprising. It was surrounded by barricades, and fighting lasted for days before those rebels who had not already fled were rounded up in the church and arrested.

For more than 200 years, the bell-shaped dome stood over the skyline of old Dresden, dominating the city.

Burials include Heinrich Schütz and George Bähr.

Destruction
On 13 February 1945, Allied forces began the bombing of Dresden in World War II. The church withstood two days and nights of the attacks, and the eight interior sandstone pillars supporting the large dome held up long enough for the evacuation of 300 people who had sought shelter in the church crypt, before succumbing to the heat generated by some 650,000 incendiary bombs that were dropped on the city. The temperature surrounding and inside the church eventually reached 1000 C. The dome finally collapsed at 10 a.m. on 15 February. The pillars glowed bright red and exploded; the outer walls shattered and nearly 6,000 tons of stone plunged to earth, penetrating the massive floor as it fell.

The altar, a relief depiction of Jesus' Agony in the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives by Johann Christian Feige, was only partially damaged during the bombing raid and fire that destroyed the church. The altar and the structure behind it, the chancel, were among the remnants left standing. Features of most of the figures were lopped off by falling debris and the fragments lay under the rubble.

The building vanished from Dresden's skyline, and the blackened stones would lie in wait in a pile in the centre of the city for the next 45 years as Communist rule enveloped what was now East Germany. Shortly after the end of World War II, residents of Dresden had already begun salvaging unique stone fragments from the Church of Our Lady and numbering them for future use in reconstruction. Popular sentiment discouraged the authorities from clearing the ruins away to make a car park. In 1966, the remnants were officially declared a "memorial against war", and state-controlled commemorations were held there on the anniversaries of the destruction of Dresden.

In 1982, the ruins began to be the site of a peace movement combined with peaceful protests against the East German regime. On the anniversary of the bombing, 400 citizens of Dresden came to the ruins in silence with flowers and candles, part of a growing East German civil rights movement. By 1989, the number of protesters in Dresden, Leipzig, and other parts of East Germany had increased to tens of thousands. On 9 November 1989, the Berlin Wall "fell" and the inner German border dividing East and West Germany toppled. This opened the way to German reunification.

Promoting reconstruction and funding
During the last months of World War II, residents expressed the desire to rebuild the church. However, due to political circumstances in East Germany, the reconstruction came to a halt. The heap of ruins was conserved as a war memorial within the inner city of Dresden, as a direct counterpart to the ruins of Coventry Cathedral, which was destroyed by German bombing in 1940 and also serves as a war memorial in the United Kingdom. Because of the continuing decay of the ruins, Dresden leaders decided in 1985 (after the Semperoper was finally finished) to rebuild the Church of Our Lady after the completion of the reconstruction of Dresden Castle.

The reunification of Germany, brought new life to the reconstruction plans. In 1989, a 14-member group of enthusiasts headed by Ludwig Güttler, a noted Dresden musician, formed a Citizens' Initiative. From that group emerged a year later The Society to Promote the Reconstruction of the Church of Our Lady, which began an aggressive private fund-raising campaign. The organisation grew to over 5,000 members in Germany and 20 other countries. A string of German auxiliary groups were formed, and three promotional organisations were created abroad.

The project gathered momentum. As hundreds of architects, art historians and engineers sorted the thousands of stones, identifying and labeling each for reuse in the new structure, others worked to raise money. IBM provided a key element by contracting with RTI International, a nonprofit research institute in Research Triangle Park NC to create an interactive virtual reality representation of the Church. The VR drew donations large and small, helping to make the project possible.

Günter Blobel, a German-born American, saw the original Church of Our Lady as a boy when his refugee family took shelter in a town just outside Dresden days before the city was bombed. In 1994, he became the founder and president of the nonprofit "Friends of Dresden, Inc.", a United States organization dedicated to supporting the reconstruction, restoration, and preservation of Dresden's artistic and architectural legacy. In 1999, Blobel won the Nobel Prize for medicine and donated the entire amount of his award money (nearly US$1 million) to the organization for the restoration of Dresden, to the rebuilding of the Frauenkirche and the building of a new synagogue. It was the single largest individual donation to the project. In Britain, the Dresden Trust has Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, as its royal patron and the Bishop of Coventry among its curators. Dr. Paul Oestreicher, a canon emeritus of Coventry Cathedral and a founder of the Dresden Trust, wrote: "The church is to Dresden what St. Paul's is to London". (Referring to St. Paul's Cathedral.) Additional organizations include France's Association Frauenkirche Paris and Switzerland's Verein Schweizer Freunde der Frauenkirch.

Rebuilding the church cost €180 million. Dresdner Bank financed more than half of the reconstruction costs via a "donor certificates campaign", collecting almost €70 million after 1995. The bank itself contributed more than seven million Euros, including more than one million donated by its employees. Over the years, thousands of watches containing tiny fragments of Church of Our Lady stone were sold, as were specially printed medals. One sponsor raised nearly €2.3 million through symbolic sales of individual church stones.

Funds raised were turned over to the "Frauenkirche Foundation Dresden", with the reconstruction backed by the State of Saxony, the City of Dresden and the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Saxony.

The new golden tower cross was funded officially by "the British people and the House of Windsor". It was made by the British silversmith company Grant Macdonald of which the main craftsman on the project was Alan Smith whose father was one of the bomber pilots responsible for the destruction of the church.

Reconstruction

Using original plans from builder Georg Bähr in the 1720s, the Dresden City Council decided to proceed with reconstruction in February 1992. A rubble-sorting ceremony started the event in January 1993 under the direction of church architect and engineer Eberhard Burger. The foundation stone was laid in 1994, and stabilized in 1995. The crypt was completed in 1996 and the inner cupola in 2000. Seven new bells were cast for the church and rang for the first time for the Pentecost celebration in 2003. The exterior was completed ahead of schedule in 2004 and the interior painted in 2005. The intensive efforts to rebuild this world-famous landmark were completed in 2005, one year earlier than originally planned, and in time for the 800-year anniversary of the city of Dresden in 2006.

The church was reconsecrated with a festive service one day before Reformation Day. The rebuilt church is a monument reminding people of its history and a symbol of hope and reconciliation.

As far as possible, the church – except for its dome – was rebuilt using original material and plans, with the help of modern technology. The heap of rubble was documented and carried off stone by stone. The approximate original position of each stone could be determined from its position in the heap. Every usable piece was measured and catalogued. A computer imaging program that could move the stones three-dimensionally around the screen in various configurations was used to help architects find where the original stones sat and how they fit together.

Of the millions of stones used in the rebuilding, more than 8,500 original stones were salvaged from the original church and approximately 3,800 reused in the reconstruction. As the older stones are covered with a darker patina, due to fire damage and weathering, the difference between old and new stones will be clearly visible for many years after reconstruction.

Two thousand pieces of the original altar were cleaned and incorporated into the new structure.

The builders relied on thousands of old photographs, memories of worshippers and church officials, and crumbling old purchase orders detailing the quality of the mortar or pigments of the paint (as in the 18th century, copious quantities of eggs were used to make the color that provides the interior with its almost luminescent glow).

When it came time to duplicate the oak doors of the entrance, the builders had only vague descriptions of the detailed carving. Because people (especially wedding parties) often posed for photos outside the church doors, they issued an appeal for old photographs and the response – which included entire wedding albums – allowed artisans to recreate the original doors.

The new gilded orb and cross on top of the dome was forged by Grant Macdonald Silversmiths in London using the original 18th-century techniques as much as possible. It was constructed by Alan Smith, a British goldsmith from London whose father, Frank, was a member of one of the aircrews who took part in the bombing of Dresden. Before travelling to Dresden, the cross was exhibited for five years in churches across the United Kingdom including Coventry Cathedral, Liverpool Cathedral, St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, and St Paul's Cathedral in London. In February 2000, the cross was ceremonially handed over by Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, to be placed on the top of the dome a few days after the 60th commemoration of D-Day on 22 June 2004. The external structure of the Frauenkirche was completed. For the first time since the last war, the completed dome and its gilded cross grace Dresden's skyline as in centuries prior. The cross that once topped the dome, now twisted and charred, stands to the right of the new altar.

Builders decided not to reproduce the 1736 Gottfried Silbermann organ, despite the fact that the original design papers, description, and details exist, giving rise to the Dresden organ dispute ("Dresdner Orgelstreit"). When installed, the Silbermann organ had three manuals with 43 ranks and over the years had been remodeled and expanded to five manuals with 80 ranks. Daniel Kern of Strasbourg, Alsace, completed a 4,873 pipe organ for the structure in April 2005 and it was inaugurated in October of that year; Samuel Kummer was the organist until 2022. The Kern organ contains all the stops which were in the Silbermann organ and attempts to recreate their sounds. The Kern work contains 68 stops and a fourth swell manual in the symphonic 19th century style which is apt for the organ literature composed after the baroque period.

A bronze statue of reformer and theologian Martin Luther, which survived the bombings, has been restored and again stands in front of the church. It is the work of sculptor Adolf von Donndorf from 1885.

There are two devotional services every day and two liturgies every Sunday. Since October 2005, there has been an exhibition on the history and reconstruction of the Frauenkirche at the Stadtmuseum (City Museum) in Dresden's Alten Landhaus.

Since the re-opening
Since re-opening, the Church of Our Lady has been a tourist destination in Dresden. In the first three years, seven million people have visited the church as tourists and to attend worship services. The project has inspired other revitalization projects throughout Europe, including the Dom-Römer Project in Frankfurt, the City Palace of Potsdam, and the City Palace, Berlin. In 2009, US President Barack Obama visited the church after a meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in the Grünes Gewölbe.

Criticisms of reconstruction methods
Architectural historian Mark Jarzombek complained that unidentifiable parts of the ruins were placed in arbitrary locations in the new building. As a result, he said, the socialist monument to the bombing was, in essence, dispersed throughout the fabric of the building.

title: Frauenkirche, Dresden


text:
User talk:Hermeneus

Yasukuni Shrine - please help
Hi, I noticed that you're listed as a "native" speaker of Japanese so I was wondering if you could help us over at Yasukuni Shrine. We're trying to figure out the proper way to write the name of the shrine in Japanese. We've asked for a consensus on the | Japanese article but nobody speaks sufficient Japanese to discern their responses. Of course, any opinions you have are also welcome. Thanks for your time. --feitclub 05:29, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help! I will use this information to improve the article. --feitclub 20:10, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Tsushima Islands
I need help here from you... Mr Tan 00:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC), Mr Tan 12:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Tsushima Island. Hermeneus 17:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before I Vote on 'Move Tsushima Islands' Issue
... Thankyou for your time, attention, and good professional behaviour. I'll check the Talk state again no sooner than Monday around Noon (UTC), And ask the uninvolved others to do the same. PLEASE BE CONCISE. [[User:fabartus | FrankB || TalktoMe]] 23:10, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Understood. Hermeneus 03:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Pardon me for intruding again, but I caught this last night at -- Oh 02:20 local -- and didn't get back to it. You state that Tsushima is the third largest island in Japan. I think you meant the third largest Island in the Nagasaki polity; the correct statement. Clearly any of the four main islands of Japan are larger. I'll add a note there in the discussion for you. Thanks!
 * [[User:Fabartus|FrankB || TalktoMe]] 02:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * In Japan the four main islands (plus Okinawa) are not generally counted among "islands" but only parts of the mainland Japan, just like continents are not counted in the list of islands of the world. Hermeneus (talk) 02:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * See the discussion section of Talk:Tsushima Islands for a longer reply. And please stop making corrections on someone else's statement directly. If you don't agree with what I said, add an independent comment below it and don't change the words of mine. Hermeneus (talk) 03:59, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! How's your War knowledge? Do you have time and interest in collaborating, or at least looking over battle history. (WHY: As a 50 year old lifelong history buff I was shocked that I had to read a Biography of Pres. Teddy Roosevelt to find out how important the R-JW, and Battle of Tsushima was to our eventual involvement and conflict in WW-II) So I'm going to be improving the R-JW artys and make sure I get the importance of the matter before the casual reader, while staying NPOV. Hopefully I can end up with some stuff written to a high stanard with Maps like: Battle of Jutland
 * Just dribs and drabs:
 * On Tsushima: Would have been really nice if you were to have made your Japanese background plain in the TS comments, esp. after I tried to impose some order and bluntly asked in large bold letters for such as you to stand up and be heard clearly.
 * Frankly, it's not plain on your user page either (i.e. your background or residence), I almost missed it here on your talk page as well, save for the party above that mentioned you were on a list of Qualified Japanese speakers, or whatever. That got my attention. I'm afraid when I was making the message rounds the other night I wasn't stopping to look at user pages, or even glance at talk pages. Pretty machine like, I was!
 * My point: "Hermeneus" is very GREEK or ROMAN flavored to one inculcated in western culture and history. Certainly 'eus' has no commonality with Japanese words I've been exposed to, nor does 'Her' and 'men' syllables follow normal Japanese practice as I would normally group such — Don't most Japanese syllables end with a vowel? Anyway, that's just in passing and shock, as I'd asked in Large bold for Japanese knowledgable indivuals to step out and make themselves known when I organized the damn thing. I know you've visted since (btw - IT IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE outside of Japan about the islands Vs the mainland of Japan — perhaps within Japan, or within some community of people involved in 'Far East Studies', as it is termed here in the Eastern USA. But that's splitting hairs. I can
 * The actual reason I happened into your parlor is that I'm curious as to your rant on Mr Tan which I had unfortunely to displace downward with my disection of his use of my paragraph as derivative. What did you see there that could be termed Original Research?
 * In any event, nice to meet you NOT over a matter I don't really care about, but was clearly out of control. If that paragraph is no longer germane, after my explainations — that is, I suspect I'd strike through it. I just don't know what it meant, as Mr Tan has obviously flitted around spreading emotion and discord like a kitten with a ball of yarn. I hope you've caught up with the news on the RfC\Mr Tan — He's only a kid, ca. (13-15)! It does mean that tactics have to match, and this article certainly hasn't settle him down any at all. ttfn, Frank

FLASH! This just in -- pics of the canal. (I was holding 'finalizing' trying to find that reference I thought I'd seen saying what I'd thought you meant to say viz Nagasaki and third Island. But the hell with it. Thanks for cleaning up my mistake.) Pretty much demolishes the two islands arguements. How do you feel on the Tsushima and Tsushima (disambigulation) matter? The history Books (See long list at tans Talk User Talk:Mr Tan seem to me to use 'Tsushima' as much as Island or Islands, actually more frequently, as those that do use Island or Island frequently drop it while writing after their introduction paragraphs. So, I find I'm leaning more toward that than anything else. See My talk for the new material provided by one of your countrymen (?) Sub-Head: Re: Tsushima Islands
 * [[User:Fabartus|FrankB || TalktoMe]] 17:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tsushima Islands
In response....Mr Tan 1 July 2005 05:33 (UTC)
 * I have already responded to you on the Tsushima article's disc page. You don't need to repost the same message here. Hermeneus (talk) 1 July 2005 18:47 (UTC)

Zainichi Korean
Hermeneus: You wrote "Zainichi Koreans were still Japanese at the time of the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal of 1946. 148 Korean-Japanese in the Imperial Japanese military were convicted of Class B and C war crimes, 23 of whom were sentenced to death. " What is the source of this? I checked Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal and found the following "There were 28 defendants tried, mostly military and political leaders." Are the 28 defendants A class? If so, how many Japanese B and C class were convicted? I would update Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal accordingly --Hunfe 8 July 2005 19:29 (UTC)
 * They were tried at local war crime tribunals in Asia, not the Tokyo Tribunal. See or look up "朝鮮人BC級戦犯" in Japanese google. Hermeneus  (talk) July 9, 2005 00:06 (UTC)

Since I can't read japanese, I can't assess how relevant is the link you provided. Since Class B and C were not mentioned in Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, it looks like these criminals were not the main focus of the trials. Since Zainichi Korean is not about war crimes, I suggest eliminating this information. I would like to get your agreement before I make any changes. --Hunfe 01:02, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The description on the Zainichi Korean article has already been modified to avoid the confusion. Hermeneus (talk) 02:45, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Hermeneus, I am still waiting for a reply on eliminating information on war crimes due to irrelevancy. Please see my prior post --Hunfe 20:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * See Talk:Zainichi Korean for further discussion on this. Hermeneus (talk) 09:23, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

RE: Your votes on photo of Nanking Massacre
Hi Hermeneus, Thanks for your vote(s) on the above-mentioned vote. We're trying to gauge each voter's rationale for supporting/opposing each proposed plan of action, and since you've voted but did not provide a reason and/or elaboration to your vote, I would appreciate it if you could return to that page and tell us. If you do not wish to comment on your choice, please make that known either on that page or to me. Thanks again. -- Миборовский U 06:01, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Deja vu
Are you the same chap on the Japantoday forums? You might be able to guess who I am if that is the case. John Smith's 01:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am. Hermeneus (user/talk) 02:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Pages up for deletion
There are two pages up for deletion: Revolution within the form and WHEELER 00:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Your question about watchlist transclusion
I found a solution to your problem; see here. Let me know if I didn't explain it well enough or something. – T i f e g o(t) 00:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Censorship
A watered-down version of the proposed policy against censorship is now open for voting. Will you kindly review the policy and make your opinions known? Thank you very much. Loom91 12:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I have noticed you gave your support in this poll. Unfortunately the policy has been rejected for the second time. I myself have set up a new Public Domain wiki and made this policy from Day one. You're welcome to have a look if you wish. Gerard Foley 17:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Addressing an etymological issue -- Tsushima
The Japanese name of Tsushima 対馬, 対馬島, 対馬本島 must be addressed in the article Tsushima Island, as I find it rather obscure to the references of its Kanji (対馬) and English (Tsushima Island) common references in the introduction. To the best I knew, 対馬 is the most commonly used name although 対馬島 is also widely used as well.

Shima, jima and tō are the Romaji equivalents of 島, am I right? But when and how do I use it, and if Shima is the romaji is the equivalent of 島, then 対馬 is Tsu, not Tsushima. User:Dwy had tried to address the problem in its talk page, but I find it rather obscure.

One thing I am sure is that the meaning of 対馬 does not describes it as an island as it lacks the word 島, which means island. However, I believe that 対馬 is more commonly used as they don't look at it as an island, but rather as a place, the way like they refer to a town or a shopping complex.

As you can see, the Japanese version of Tsushima through its common references and history (cut and paste from the Japanese wikipedia):

対馬の大半を占める主島の対馬島（つしまじま）のほか、その周囲には百以上の属島が存在する. 一般的にはこの対馬島と属島をまとめて対馬と呼ばれることが多い. 古くは対馬国（つしまのくに）や対州（たいしゅう）、また日本書紀において対馬島（ただし、三文字引き合わせて「つしま」と読むのが書紀古訓における伝統的な読み方である）と記述されていた.

Likewise, I feel that the problem must not be unaddressed in the english wikipedia, and we should clarify readers between "Tsushima Island" and "Tsushima" and its Japanese (address mode) variants. I look foward to your clarification. Thanks. Mr Tan 07:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Correction. In response to User:Dwy stating on Talk:Tsushima Island that 対馬 is Tsushima Island, check on the Korean wikipedia disambiguation page--Tsushima, which states that Tsushima alone is 対馬. So my conclusion is that Tsushima Island is 対馬島. Correct me if I'm wrong. Mr Tan 07:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Dokdo --> Liancourt Rocks
I don't care to take sides on this. However, since you're going ahead with this poll, you must list this at Requested moves. And please follow the rules there. Thanks.--Endroit 10:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You are like a little Japanese helper, Endroit. Hehe. Nice to master.--222.233.205.166 13:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

New vote over Sea of Japan edit
Hi, I've started a new vote with the proposal I outlined beforehand. I would appreciate it if you could head on over to the talk page and vote. Thanks, John Smith's 14:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment:Universal WikiConstitution and a Trans-Wiki Tribunal
Hello Hermeneus,

I'm a Hebrew Wikipedia editor. I'm trying to organize an international group of Wikipedians, to create a universal constitution for Wikipedia, which is meant to apply in all language editions, and additionally a trans-Wiki tribunal, who would preside in matters of breach of these constitutional principles, and will also possibly act as an appeal court for people who exhausted all their local alternatives for appeal.

This constitution is not supposed to be made a formal policy of the Wikimedia organization, and the tribunal's verdicts are not meant to be supported by some sort of law-enforcement organ. The verdicts will be nothing more than recommendation of action. Their influence, if any, will be the direct result of the respect it will command from the universal community of Wikipedians.

Having read your comments on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipedia_policies, i've received the impression, you might find such a suggestion intriguing. -Itayb 09:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:RM poll at Talk:Dokdo
There is a new poll for Dokdo at Talk:Dokdo. The candidates for a new name include Liancourt Rocks, Takeshima, and the new Takeshima/Dokdo variations suggested by user:Macgruder. You are being informed because you voted on the last poll. Thank you.--Endroit 21:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review for Category:Japanese citrus
See Deletion review/Log/2007 November 26 Badagnani (talk) 19:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Ienagasaburo.png
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Nomination of Market share of government-approved Japanese history textbooks for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Market share of government-approved Japanese history textbooks is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Proposed deletion of Kultar Gill

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title: User talk:Hermeneus