text:
Talk:Synchronous optical networking

Intermediate Path Performance Monitoring
I'd like to see some mention of IPPM. 171.71.81.83 (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

STM Frame
The STM frame has 9 rows and 270 columns.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.214.17 (talk) 12:19, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

STM Frame Image
I am not sure if this is default drawing style, but as the frame is transmitted row by row and not column by column, I would find it better if the 125uS were not given as a label for the columns but as a label for the rows, as the viewer might expect that label to symbolize a timeline of transmission.

139.18.247.116 (talk) 16:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Digital Hierarchy
The statement "For example, four OC-3 or STM-1 circuits can be agregated to form a 622 Mbit/s circuit designated as OC-12 or STM-4." is a bit misleading. Actually an OC-12 is not an encapsulation of 4 OC-3s as is implied. An OC-12 contains 12 STS-1s (OC-1 at optical level) and as such can carry 4 OC-3s, however each STS-1 is carried without any type of "wrapper" within the OC-12. I'm probably being overly picky but hey, you might as well make it as clear as possible.

"The current state of the art is the OC-192 or STM-64 circuit, which operates at rate of just under 10 Gbit/s." The current state of the art is actually OC-768.

"It is defined by GR-253-CORE from Telcordia." Isn´t it defined by ITU-T´s G707?
 * The "agregated" is still there... why didn't you fix it? Fixed. Mga 03:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I think this article lacks a table of the digital hierarchy defined by SONET and SDH, as well as a comparison of the terminolgy. There is more to be done (the article lacks a bit more overview; it did not even mention Time Division Multiplexing, ANSI T.105 or refer to the proper standards. I fixed a few of these, but am not an SONET/SDH expert. For starters, I like to add this subsection in the "The basic unit of transmission" section, but I like someone to verify its correctness. I put question marks next to figures I am not certain about. (Feel free to fix them here, so I can move it to the article, or move it yourself). MacFreek (talk) 15:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Digital Hierarchy
SONET and SDH define a hierarchy for interweaving multiple channels into a single link. The different channels are interwoven using Time-division multiplexing.

At the highest layer, an Optical Carrier (OC) can carry a large amount of data. For example, a single OC-192 can carry WAN PHY Ethernet. However, it is sometimes convenient to multiplex the signal into smaller channels. An OC-192 can also carry 192 STS-1 SONET Payload Envelopes (STS-1 SPE) or 64 VC-4 channels. The STS-1 SPE or VC-4 can be further split into smaller channels, called Virtual Tributaries (VT) in SONET terminology or Virtual Containers (VC) in SDH terminology. The individual VT or VC can further carry one or more digital signals (DS), such as DS1, the payload of T1 or E1.

The hierarchy is slightly different for SONET and SDH. The following table follows the hierarchy used in GMPLS to describe SONET and SDH links.

This table does not define lower orders than VT1.5. in particular DS0 is not defined, nor the higher order concatenations of DS0: DS1/T1, DS2/T2, DS3/T3, DS4/T4, DS5/T4, E1, E2, E3, E4 and E5.

10 Gigabit Ethernet and OC-192/STM-64
This article used to say they were compatible, but now it doesn't. Could somebody knowledgeable elaborate? - mako 06:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The signals are not directly compatible, however many manufacturers produce cards that allow 10GigE signals to be carried over SDH/SONET or STM-64 DWDM signals (also variants that carry 1 or 2x 1GigE signals over STM-16). For example, Marconi MSH2K Optical Core Switch (link to commercial site) - gjk 10:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, 10GbE has two different types of PHYs. One is the LAN-PHY which looks a lot like the lower speed Ethernet PHYs. The other is the WAN-PHY which was specifically intended for interworking with the SDH/SONET network: it has the same frame format as an STM-64 with VC-4-64c (OC-192 with STS-192c SPE) - bit rate is a bit lower than the LAN-PHY. A WAN-PHY which additionally observes the SDH/SONET clock specifications fits seamlessly into the SDH/SONET network. BertK 22:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Also note that a single NE's compatibility with 10GbE doesn't mean that intermediate NEs will be able to support it. 10GbE is very close in flavor to STS-192c, which most NEs don't support. Also, 10GbE doesn't really make use of a lot of the SONET overhead and features: These are basically turned off which could drive an actual SONET Network crazy.

Aside from that, many new SONET NEs support it, though frankly when you're concatenating at that level you'll probably have optical networking equipment (as opposed to SONET) do things like protection.

NE?
Suddenly in the text is the abbreviation "NE". What's that?
 * Network Element BertK 18:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

A network element contains (is made up of amongst other things) racks/shelfs/cards/slots/ports. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.14.42 (talk) 23:43, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

 * To keep the article readable for the average reader, who isn't steeped in our telecom acronym soup, I've changed "NE" to "network element" throughout the article. As noted in MOS:ABBR, sometimes it's best to just spell things out. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Equipment vendor listing?
An anonymous user that has a decent editing history originally added three links to different Nortel systems that do SONET. I removed those. A different link has now been added back, again by the anonymous user, to a top level for all SONET systems at Nortel. Do we want a list of vendors on the article at all? If so, it will slowly go out-of-date as vendors merge, change names, go out of business, or new ones are created. Having the list also invites more churn on the article. Not only that, but it isn't a short list (Here is an incomplete list):

Alcatel, Anda Networks,

Appian Communications,

Cisco Systems,

Coriolis Networks,

ECI Telecom Communications,

Fujitsu Network Communications,

Internet Photonics,

Lucent Technologies,

Mahi Networks,

Marconi,

Nortel Networks,

Photonic Bridges,

RAD Data Communications,

Sycamore Networks,

Siemens ICN,

Tejas Networks,

Tellabs,

Turin Networks,

White Rock Networks

Or we could add several links to the ODP (dmoz.org), who actually attempts to be a directory. Mrand 00:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

gea-141020: Agreed, the list of SONET equipment vendors doesn't belong in this article. Eventually, however, it might be useful to have an article that shows North American SONET equipment deployment by network and Vendor, although there's a lot of other SONET-related articles that should be written first. In that context, of course, Nortel will seem pretty important, along with Lucent, Alcatel, Fujistu and, possibly, Cisco. Maybe DSC, too. Those vendors probably outweigh the little guys by 1000s to one, so there is merit in mentioning names within the right context.

Discussion
If someone wants to specifically know about SDH, I think this is the wrong article. There are differences (not only in labels), and there is certainly more (channels, how they are multiplexed, headers, units, pointers etc.).

Therefore I propose that a new article, solely about SDH, is forked from this one.
 * I disagree that a forked article is needed.  Here's my opinion: SDH is so close to SONET that a forked article would result in massive amounts of duplicated information.  Units (are you referring to Mbps?), and pointers are all the same.  Headers (you referring to overhead?) are almost identical.  Multiplex schemes are somewhat different, but have massive overlap.  I'm not sure what you are referring to by channels, but if it's the naming difference (which I actually assume is what you meant by "labels"), then yes, they are named different.  But a (single) well written article would be able to handle the multiple names.  At most, I think a second article would only need to explain SDH naming and multiplexing, while referring back to the main SONET/SDH article for everything else. Regards, Mrand 05:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

MW: I just came to this page for the first time. It was immediately apparent that the article contains information on two different things. SDH and SONET are two different standards. Because they are two completely different standards, there should be two completely different articles. If one wishes to summarize Synchronous networks in one page, that would be fine, and that article could link to SONET and SDH. But similarity is not enough reason for one article. There are two seperate articles for IPv4 and IPv6. And those are just varients of one standard. There are probably 1000s of examples of why there should be 2 articles on these 2 different standards. MatthewWilder 20:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

 * They're not two different standards, they're the same standard separated by the Atlantic. You can literally plug SDH equipment into SONET, and provided the equipment breaks the standard in trivial ways (one standard I think it was SONET says that some overhead bits have to be zero, whereas SDH says it can be one or zero), then the two standards interwork incredibly well.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 21:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

agree with u on that one MW: I thought of another example. This article is akin to having an article on Sonny and Cher but naming it "Sonny". And an article on Sonny and Cher is reasonable, since they were compatible (at least at times). Anyway, the names are so close that I couldn't resist this comparison. MatthewWilder 20:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

CT: I agree that an explanation of SONET and SDH can co-exist on the same page, but the differences should be clear. The payload data rate gets tricky when you start dealing with virtual concatenation (VCAT) and virtual containers and tributaries, e.g. STS-3c/VC-4 SPE is 149.76Mbit/s whereas STS-3 SPE is 150.336Mbit/s. For more information, see http://www.zytrax.com/tech/data_rates.htm or RFC 3255 at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3255.txt. ChrisTracy 01:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

GB: Sonet and SDH are two seperate, distinct entities. They have different overheads, support different line rates as basic units (VC4 vs. STS.) Frankly, the VC3 had to be invented to create a comparison for the two standards. SDH has LO and HO overheads, where as Sonet has a single overhead. Yes, they both use the same methods for OAMP and mostly the same bytes, but SDH has two levels, and they support different timing sources (same idea coming origianlly from a Sonet clock, but different formats.) Having these in the same article should change the title to Optical Network Protocols or something along those lines. GregBouchillon 09:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, SONET and SDH are intimately related standards: they were developped jointly and published within months of each other. In fact SONET is a so-called 'regional subset' of the international SDH standard, so everything in SONET is also in ITU-T SDH (be it with a different name) - so the above claims must be the result of some confusion. (Also note that currently maintenance of SONET standards is done by changing the SDH standards and then refering to those.) Other regions like Europe or Japan also specify their own subset, but keep calling this subset SDH (like all PDH is called PDH, no matter if its DS1, E1 or J1 based). This seems to be causing confusion, most often between the European (ETSI) SDH and the international (ITU-T) SDH.BertK 20:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I proposed a split. My guess is that someone smarter than me can make the differences clearer. User:Luis F. Gonzalez

 * There are no differences per se: there is an international superset specified by ITU-T (formerly CCITT) called SDH and a number of regional subset specified by regional standards bodies like ATIS OPTXS (formerly ANSI T1X1), ETSI, TTC,... For historical reasons, the North American regional subset happens to be called SONET and uses different terminology, but it's still the same.
 * That doesn't mean a split article is not a good idea: I'd like to see a main article on international SDH, including the joint history, and multiple articles on the regional subsets (ETSI SDH, SONET, others?). The SONET article would be special in that it would have pre-standardization history and a terminology cross-reference.BertK 20:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

SDH and Sonet Difference

SDH is used in European Contries Sonet is used in American Conuntries —Preceding unsigned comment added by S.santosh2k (talk • contribs) 12:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

 * To be more precise: SDH is deployed all over the world, except for North America where SONET is deployed. Huub v H 20:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

And both of them have a significant amount of diffrence in Data rates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S.santosh2k (talk • contribs) 12:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Also the processing of the overhead information is different between SDH and SONET (see http://www.van-helvoort.eu/ and selct standards work) Huub v H 20:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You definitely have two (or three) separate animals here, although they basically started with the same parent. SONET as a North American standard follows ANSI T1.105-2001. SDH is the European standard and falls under the ITU-T G.707 & G.708 standards. Additionally we can further extend the article if we discuss Optical Transport Networks (OTN) and the ITU-T G.709/Y.1993 (and replace the 10 Gbps discussion). A comparison is required between the three to show their similarities and highlight their differences. As a start, why don't we concentrate on making three separate sections (one each on SONET, SDH, and OTN)? JEdwards47 19:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

 * SONET and SDH are basically the same or at least closely related animals. OTN is a completely separate standard: SDH/SONET signals are clients to OTN signals, like PDH signals were clients to SDH/SONET networks.BertK 20:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

gea-141020: I wrote most of this article and worked at Bellcore/Telcordia in the group responsible for GR-253 (I also co-wrote a book on SONET with the inventor of SONET). In my opinion, one could modify this article to better include the differences between SDH and SONET, which are minimal at the OC-N and STS-N levels. Where you DO need an additional article(s), however, is in handling the subrate packaging of PDH signals. In other words, everything that happens below the OC-3 level, including how you build up from the E1 level to an OC-3. For that matter, another article is probably needed describing the same process for North America. But once you getup to the true SDH/SONET transport containers at the line and section llayer (which have different names in SDH, sorry) then t's all basically the same and can be handled by one article.

A separate article for SDH wouldn't be the end of the world, however.

Survey
The discussion may continue above.

I vote for the split on the grounds that many readers want a clear definition of what makes SONET SONET. However, I think for those looking for the "Big Picture" and trying to develop a context, a very high-level comparison to SDH is helpful, if only because so many texts lump SONET and SDH into their three-page writeup of "high speed optical networks". Here's what I mean by "High Level":

SONET and SDH

SONET and SDH are both high-speed networks that are most commonly implemented on fiber. The North American and European approaches are similar enough that data can be exchanged between these different network technologies with suitable equipment.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

 * What most people care about is the same in both SONET and SDH. Why not retitle this article "SONET and SDH" (or "SONET/SDH") with both SONET and SDH redirecting there, and then discuss their differences explicitly in sections, which could then be split out into seperate articles? jhawkinson 00:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I vote for a split too. Technologies are getting advanced at a pace faster than blink of an eye.. Though initially it was not wrong to integrate what we have, but looking at the developements & at tha pace at which they are changing, I think its now high time that a step should be taken.. We need to be more focussed on them individually so as not to defeat the purpose of this information's existence.. If we split, we'll be able to focus more clearly on the concepts.. I agree there may be some duplication, but I dont see sumthing wrong in it.. But whats more important is the missing information, that we'll be able to focus upon, when we'll opt for split..

The article needs to be split because SONET and SDH are two different technologies and two different implementations. While they may be close to the same idea, they are NOT the same thing. Not to say they shouldn't be on the same page, but then the article needs to be renamed appropriately. --Chris.Seedyk 11:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Strongly oppose split. In this world we are dealing with explosion of standards serving the same goals. We have at least those two that closely overlap and that's great! Keep them together, do not make three (nor two) redundant articles. Three articles means three times more contributions is needed, plus they will never be in-sync again.

Article grows, if the text will approach 32 kB, some sections can be split. Those split-off articles should be either SONET-dedicated or SDH-dedicated. However, the main article should definately describe both technologies, clearly stating minor differences. That is what an inexperienced user coming here intuitively expects. If needed, rename to SONET and SDH per jhawkinson. --Kubanczyk 14:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I vote for split! Or at least make a section explaining the differences, and try to make that at the beggining. According to my textbook, Tanenbaum's Computer Network 3rd ed, SONET is the result of a join work between BELLCORE (the research division of the U.S. RBOCS) and CCITT. Strangely, 2 results came out of this cooperation: a standard called SONET and a series of recommendations (maybe non binding) published by CCITT (G.707 to G.709). They have some differences and those should be mentioned.--Dhcpy 20:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I vote for split. It is stupid that if you want to know about _exactly_ one technology, you have to digg your way through the whole article, just to find what is important to you. And there is a way more information about SONET here, than SDH, which is bad. --83.7.68.115 (talk) 20:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't ever split The SDH standard is a slight superset of the SONET standard. There's nothing in SONET that isn't in SDH, and the two standards interwork perfectly well- you can plug STS-48 into STM-16 equipment, and provided the optics are compatible (and a few other minor things), it just works. They're really the same thing with a few minor terminology differences and a few bits in some overhead that tell you whether it's STS or STM.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 21:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I strongly vote against a split, and suggest renaming the article to SONET/SDH  Two separate articles would over and over again refer to each other, since a comparison is interesting. The differences are readily presented in numerical comparison tables. In course literature and telecommunication lectures, SONET and SDH are typically presented together. (I'm a lecturer.) The notation SONET/SDH occurs as book title and chapter title, and gives 750.000 hits in Google, 693 hits at Google books and 206 hits at wikipedia. Only a small amount of advanced level readers are interested in the details that are specific to only one of the standards, and not the other one, and they can just as well see browse down in the article to the the comparison tables. Perhaps, a SDH section and a SONET section might be added that summarize what is unique to each of the standards. Mange01 (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Tclk030578 (talk) 09:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC) 'I vote for a branching out or split as they are basically 2 seperate standards inspite of having a lot of similarities... basically the terminology used by both is different and it is pretty confusing when a single article uses both.

Don't split The differences between SONET and SDH are minor, consisting of terminology differences (e.g. line vs. multiplex section and section vs. regenerator section), rate structure (STS vs. STM) and the use of some of the overhead bytes. It would be far better to clean up the article to deal with the dual terminology rather than attempt to keep two articles in sync. Jpgs (talk) 14:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Putting "optical" on SDH is a misnomer
For crying out loud, the SDH hierarchy was defined for use over *copper* wire, not optical!

When SDH was defined, real use of optical fiber for communication was still the lab rats' wet dream, and Real Men used coax and microwave relays. Article needs splitting, badly. --Alvestrand 19:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * When SDH was developped E4 (140 Mbit/s) was already deployed over (optical) fiber, and SDH was based on this experience. SDH has only one line signal defined for electrical transport: The STM-1 signal ES1, its companion optical is STM-1 OS1 and up STM-4, STM-16, STM-64 STM-256. The Electrical interface is used intraoffice and the optiacl interfaces are deployed interoffice. Huub v H 20:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

gea-141020:: I agree with the last comment. E4 and even lower rates were already moving over fiber at the time, but I agree that the main motivation for SONET was not for optical communications per se (despite it's name), but on facilitating transport given multiple timing domains. Yau Chau Ching (and others) who developed SONET also seemed to have taken the opportunity to build in plenty of functionality that would be very useful in the soon-to-be optical world (such as the ability to detect far end errors without having to drive to the next location). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.158.27 (talk) 14:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

ICMP
ICMP is not part of the network layer but transport layer according to Network layer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.226.228.16 (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not in Network layer article, and ICMP is a network layer protocol. Slidersv (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Naive User
If it helps at all I came to this article to do some research and was struck by the number of times that the terms SONET and SDH needed to be qualified. This does indicate to me the need for a split. If SONET and Euro SDH are subsets of a single SDH spec then it would seem logical to describe the top level and refer to subset differences as a separate section somehow; "compare and contrast" maybe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobGi (talk • contribs) 12:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The problem is that two different things are being described and it needlessly confuses things. For example, the framing section seems to make it sound like SONET and SDH are completely different, when in reality, it has almost nothing to do with SONET vs. SDH.  What is being described is the difference between STS-1 and STS-3c (or STM-0 vs. STM-1).  Describing it in this way (in long-form text) doesn't do anyone any favors - it should be done in a completely different way - because the "framing" is identical between the two.  216.141.109.132 17:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No it is not "needless". Maybe just this section needs re-phrasing if it is confusing? Nothing is more scientific/encyclopedic than synthesis of knowledge. We need a few general articles, not a zillion articles about a separate tiny pieces of knowledge. --Kubanczyk 14:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

SSM
I think all modern SDH equipment has SSM. So timing loops are not so badly sounds, as it described in article.

Not sure if this is the proper format, but I would like to link and maybe add content to the transmux article. This is a persistent item of confusion when working with SONET to DS3 handoff between carriers. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmux Thanks! Burningclod 21:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

If you mean Synch Status Messages I believe I mentioned them in the original writeup about timing (but as that was several years ago I can't remember). But you do still see telephony carriers creating timing loops, so it's still a tricky problem, though I grant the SSMs and other messaging can allow the skillful to avoid them.(gea-141020) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.158.27 (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

basic units
I've never heard STS-3c called a basic unit in SONET, since it's really 3 STS-1s with concatenation indicators in the 2nd and 3rd STS1s. Also, I'd say VC4 is the SDH basic unit, equivalent to an STS-3c, not STM-1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mam711 (talk • contribs) 21:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And herein lies a good reason to do the split. Reading the article, you think that there is actually something called STM-32, STM-2, etc, ignoring the fact that SDH is always multiplexed by four. There is of course room for concatination (like VCAT and GFP), but that is called something a bit different, like VC-4-2c (two concatinated VC-4 containters). Compared to most other telecommunication articles on WikiPedia, this one is one of the least educational. AllanEising 13:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That entire section just confused me. It interleaves between talking about SONET and SDH from one sentence to the next, and I had to go to a second source (Cisco) to be able to make sense of out it. Surely there's a way to rewrite this to be more intelligible. I'm not familiar enough with the topic to do so correctly. Splitting this into two would clear up some of the confusion I think, but I think that there's probably a better way to phrase that. --Zender42 (talk) 17:22, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Certification
are there any exams to be certified in designing the sdh networks...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.62.97.23 (talk) 17:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

SONET/SDH Rates
This article (as well as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_Carrier article) have got non-standard rates in the table. ANSI T1.105-2001 Table 1 lists the only valid rates as OC-1, OC-3, OC-12, OC-24, OC-48, OC-192, OC-768. Other than the oddball OC-24 they are all 4x multiplexed after OC-3. Telcordia (ex-Bellcore) GR-253-CORE Issue 4 2005 concurs (but notes that OC-24 is only included for compatibility with T1.105). ITU-T G.707 lists only STM-1, STM-4, STM-16, STM-64, and STM-256. There is no STM-8 (even though there is an OC-24), OC-96/STM-32 nor OC-1536/STM-512 so I'm going to remove them from the table. Just because some vendor may have made or proposed a non-standard rate is not reason to include them. There is s lot of bogus information on SONET/SDH on the Web. On the other hand, OC-3072/STM-1024 is the next logical rate for standardisation, so it should remain with a note to this effect. Jpgs (talk) 14:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Rename proposal
I suggest that the article should be renamed to "SONET/SDH". In the literature, this is a common chapter title or book title. See Google Books: SONET/SDH (714 hits) and SDH/SONET (635 hits). Mange01 (talk) 17:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Much like nobody says "modulator demodulator," but rather "modem", everyone says SONET or SDH.  — Mrand  Talk • C 21:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

 * What about interwiki links? If you look at Wikipedia in italian, there are separate pages for SONET and SDH, and the same also in other WP's. It would be a mess if we had here just a single common page.... Even if the two technologies are quite close and described by single standard documents (ITU-T G.707 for instance), there are still some significant differences in the multiplexing structure and in the lower order tributaries, as well as in the support of the Virtual Concatenation for Ethernet over SDH/SONET. IMO, it could be worth having a split, with cross-references between the articles to ease the navigation for those interested in. Grigio60 (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's not go into a SONET vs Packet battle
Some goofball has come in and changed much of the article to try to equate SONET with circuit switching. Seeing how the latest two generations of Ethernet now utilize SONET frames can we put this type of nonsense to rest?

Those unfamiliar with physical layer issues seem to believe that SONET is somehow at odds with TCP/IP (not knowing, of course, that it is Pcaket-over-SONET that is the almost universal transport for layer 3). This battle is over, if it ever existed, and we shouldn't allow a useful SONET article to be ruined by those who don't know the issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gea-141020 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

TCP/IP is a suite, not a single protocol
In the article intro it states "...and eventually other protocols such as TCP/IP and ethernet ...". The wording is misleading, since it implies that TCP/IP is an alternative to ethernet and that it is a protocol. Neither implication is correct.

Kingfisherway (talk) 23:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

 * You're right, and I've updated the article accordingly during my copy edit. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:30, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe I was the one who originally wrote that years ago. It is a reference to the fact that both IP/Layer 3 traffic (in POS) as well as Ethernet traffic (in various flavors, referred generically as EOS or Ethernet-over-SONET) exist (whereas of course we all know that Ethernet will often be carrying IP traffic). As both are protocols the statement was originally correct, and gave the (appropriate) impression that SONET transports both (ie, Layer 2 and Layer 3 traffic), some times at the same time (ie, on different STS-1s, for instance). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.140.44 (talk) 21:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because... The material being duplicated is in itself a 'fair use' restatement of technical standards published by various groups (ANSI, ITU, IETF, etc). These groups make the ratified standards freely available to the public to reference, and as this document itself is uncopyrighted, under fair use it should be permitted on Wikipedia. ---TheDrew (talk) 13:14, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I have removed the CSD tag, thanks for the info. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 13:21, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Synchronous optical networking


text:
Talk:Z notation

Talk
So you're saying that even in the USA, people speaking of the Z notation pronounce the name of the letter "Z" as if they were British? 131.183.81.100 20:17 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

That's the ticket. The name is Zed... it just happens to be spelled "Z" -- Elano

No people in the USA pronounce "zee", not "Zed", most, but not all Canadians say "Zed", "univeral??", whatever???

 * No idea what the valley girl above is trying to say, but I believe that the Z notation is pronounced "zed" in the US, yes. I was fortunate enough to be taught it by one of the people involved in its creation; I would regard being taught it at all as unfortunate - horrible language :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeteVerdon (talk • contribs)

 * I'm not a fan of the notation myself :) . I think that with which the two anon users might have been taking issue would be the word "universal." I'm sure that not everyone calls it "Zed" notation... it's just that those who don't are mispronouncing it. Formally prnounced or something like that would perhaps be more accurate. WDavis1911 18:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Examples and Major Constructs
How about some examples and descriptions of major construcs in Z. scope_creep (talk) 00:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

 * On my wish list too. The question is about this: now this fantastic Z notation, how is it applied upon source code, is it applied blockwise, so to prove that some conditions are guaranteed in the blocks, or does it something to prove that some specific conditions hold true during the whole execution, or does it prove dynamical things, like that loops terminate or not? Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 12:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Language
Why is the example in Spanish? NigelHorne (talk) 01:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

 * Great question. seems like it'd be clearer for English readers to have an English example 170.133.237.11 (talk) 17:08, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Z notation


text:
Culmination

In observational astronomy, culmination is the passage of a celestial object (such as the Sun, the Moon, a planet, a star, constellation or a deep-sky object) across the observer's local meridian. These events were also known as meridian transits, used in timekeeping and navigation, and measured precisely using a transit telescope.

During each day, every celestial object appears to move along a circular path on the celestial sphere due to the Earth's rotation creating two moments when it crosses the meridian. Except at the geographic poles, any celestial object passing through the meridian has an upper culmination, when it reaches its highest point (the moment when it is nearest to the Zenith), and nearly twelve hours later, is followed by a lower culmination, when it reaches its lowest point (nearest to the Nadir). The time of culmination (when the object culminates) is often used to mean upper culmination.

An object's altitude (A) in degrees at its upper culmination is equal to 90 minus the observer's latitude (L) plus the object's declination (δ):

Cases
Three cases are dependent on the observer's latitude (L) and the declination (δ) of the celestial object:
 * The object is above the horizon even at its lower culmination; i.e. if $A = 90° − L + δ$ (i.e. if in absolute value the declination is more than the colatitude, in the corresponding hemisphere)
 * The object is below the horizon even at its upper culmination; i.e. if $| δ + L | > 90°$ (i.e. if in absolute value the declination is more than the colatitude, in the opposite hemisphere)
 * The upper culmination is above and the lower below the horizon, so the body is observed to rise and set daily; in the other cases (i.e. if in absolute value the declination is less than the colatitude)

The third case applies for objects in a part of the full sky equal to the cosine of the latitude (at the equator it applies for all objects, because the sky turns around the horizontal north–south line; at the poles it applies for none, because the sky turns around the vertical line). The first and second case each apply for half of the remaining sky.

Period of time
The period between a culmination and the next is a sidereal day, which is exactly 24 sidereal hours and 4 minutes less than 24 common solar hours, while the period between an upper culmination and a lower one is 12 sidereal hours. The period between successive day to day (rotational) culminations is effected mainly by Earth's orbital proper motion, which produces the different lengths between the solar day (the interval between culminations of the Sun) and the sidereal day (the interval between culminations of any reference star) or the slightly more precise, precession unaffected, stellar day. This results in culminations occurring every solar day at different times, taking a sidereal year (366.3 days), a year that is one day longer than the solar year, for a culmination to reoccur. Therefore, only once every 366.3 solar days the culmination reoccurs at the same time of a solar day, while reoccurring every sidereal day. The remaining small changes in the culmination period time from sidereal year to sidereal year is on the other hand mainly caused by nutation (with a 18.6 years cycle), resulting in the longer time scale axial precession of Earth (with a 26,000 years cycle),  while apsidal precession and other mechanics have a much smaller impact on sidereal observation, impacting Earth's climate through the Milankovitch cycles significantly more. Though at such timescales stars themself change position, particularly those stars which have, as viewed from the Solar System, a high proper motion.

Stellar parallax appears to be a similar motion like all these apparent movements, but has only from non-averaged sidereal day to sidereal day a slight effect, returning to its original apparent position, completing a cycle every orbit, with a slight additional lasting change to the position due to the precessions. This phenomenon results from Earth changing position on its orbital path.

The Sun
From the tropics and middle latitudes, the Sun is visible in the sky at its upper culmination (at solar noon) and invisible (below the horizon) at its lower culmination (at solar midnight). When viewed from the region within either polar circle around the winter solstice of that hemisphere (the December solstice in the Arctic and the June solstice in the Antarctic), the Sun is below the horizon at both of its culminations.

Supposing that the declination of the Sun is +20° when it crosses the local meridian, then the complementary angle of 70° (from the Sun to the pole) is added to and subtracted from the observer's latitude to find the solar altitudes at upper and lower culminations, respectively.
 * From 52° north, the upper culmination is at 58° above the horizon due south, while the lower is at 18° below the horizon due north. This is calculated as 52° + 70° = 122° (the supplementary angle being 58°) for the upper, and 52° − 70° = −18° for the lower.
 * From 80° north, the upper culmination is at 30° above the horizon due south, while the lower is at 10° above the horizon (midnight sun) due north.

Circumpolar stars
From most of the Northern Hemisphere, Polaris (the North Star) and the other stars of the constellation Ursa Minor circles counterclockwise around the north celestial pole and remain visible at both culminations (as long as the sky is clear and dark enough). In the Southern Hemisphere there is no bright pole star, but the constellation Octans circles clockwise around the south celestial pole and remains visible at both culminations.

Any astronomical objects that always remain above the local horizon, as viewed from the observer's latitude, are described as circumpolar.

title: Culmination


text:
Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections, British Library

The Asia, Pacific and Africa Collections previously called the Oriental and India Office Collections (OIOC) form a significant part of the holdings of the British Library in London, England.

India Office collection
The collections include the documents from the India Office Library and Records, relating to the entire history of British involvement in India and other parts of the eastern world, as well as materials in the languages of Asia-Pacific and of north and north-east Africa. It was located at Orbit House, 197 Blackfriars Road, London. Also, until 1998, The Department of Oriental Manuscripts and Printed Books was located at 14, Store Street, off Tottenham Court Road, London. Orbit House was demolished in 2004.

The collections also include transcriptions of baptism, marriage, and burial records of Christians of European descent, sent to Britain from India during the period of British rule, which are a vital resource in researching the genealogy of Anglo-Indians or domiciled Europeans who lived there.


text:
2121 Avenue of the Stars

2121 Avenue of the Stars, formerly known as Fox Plaza, is a 34-story, 493 ft skyscraper in Century City, Los Angeles, California. It is owned by the Orange County–based Irvine Company.

History
Completed in 1987, the building's principal design architect was Scott Johnson, Founding Design Partner of Johnson Fain.

Former President Ronald Reagan had his offices on the 34th floor of the building for several years after leaving public office. As of 2019, the 34th floor was occupied by 20th Century Studios.

In 2024, Chicago-based law firm Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP moved into two floors on the property.

Design
The outer exterior of the building contains rust-red granite and glass panels.

Fox Plaza features a unique HVAC system where a large vertical air shaft is located in the core of the building. The air shaft begins below the building as an outdoor, cooler air intake pushing air to each floor's fan room, and on the roof is located an exhaust for stale air. Such system design utilizes stack effect.

Filming location
In a 2018 tour for Variety, the chief engineer of the building noted how the Fox Plaza has a large number of redundancies in its design, and he speculates that it's because it was intended to be used as a filming location.

The building has been featured in at least four major motion pictures released by Fox. Its most famous appearance was in the 1988 action film Die Hard, where it portrayed the fictional Nakatomi Plaza (also known as Nakatomi Tower), a building owned by a fictional Japanese conglomerate. The damaged version of the tower was made via a scale model special effect. In 2018, to celebrate the film's 30th anniversary, a screening was held outside with the building in the background.

The plaza and a neighboring building are the main setting for the 1994 comedy Airheads where fictional radio station KPPX is located. Fox Plaza was also one of the buildings brought down at the end of Fight Club. The building plays an important role in the Brooklyn Nine-Nine episode "99", in which detective Jake Peralta insists on visiting the building due to its role in Die Hard and causes his squad to miss their return flight to New York City.

The building can also be seen from the InterContinental hotel pool across the street in the "Sunblock 5000" TV ad in Robocop 2 (1990).

title: 2121 Avenue of the Stars


text:
Intestacy

Intestacy is the condition of the estate of a person who dies without having in force a valid will or other binding declaration. Alternatively this may also apply where a will or declaration has been made, but only applies to part of the estate; the remaining estate forms the "intestate estate". Intestacy law, also referred to as the law of descent and distribution, refers to the body of law (statutory and case law) that determines who is entitled to the property from the estate under the rules of inheritance.

History and the common law
Intestacy has a limited application in those jurisdictions that follow civil law or Roman law because the concept of a will is itself less important; the doctrine of forced heirship automatically gives a deceased person's next-of-kin title to a large part (forced estate) of the estate's property by operation of law, beyond the power of the deceased person to defeat or exceed by testamentary gift. A forced share (or legitime) can often only be decreased on account of some very specific misconduct by the forced heir. In matters of cross-border inheritance, the "laws of succession" is the commonplace term covering testate and intestate estates in common law jurisdictions together with forced heirship rules typically applying in civil law and Sharia law jurisdictions. After the Statute of Wills 1540, Englishmen (and unmarried or widowed women) could dispose of their lands and real property by a will. Their personal property could formerly be disposed of by a testament, hence the hallowed legal merism last will and testament.

Common law sharply distinguished between real property and chattels. Real property for which no disposition had been made by will passed by the law of kinship and descent; chattel property for which no disposition had been made by testament was escheat to the Crown, or given to the Church for charitable purposes. This law became obsolete as England moved from being a feudal to a mercantile society, and chattels more valuable than land were being accumulated by townspeople.

Rules
Where a person dies without leaving a will, the rules of succession of the person's place of habitual residence or of their domicile often apply, but it is also common for the jurisdiction where the property is located to govern its disposal, regardless of the decedent's residence or domicile. In certain jurisdictions such as France, Switzerland, the U.S. state of Louisiana, and much of the Islamic world, entitlements arise whether or not there was a will. These are known as forced heirship rights and are not typically found in common law jurisdictions, where the rules of succession without a will (intestate succession) play a back-up role where an individual has not (or has not fully) exercised their right to dispose of property in a will.

Current law
In most contemporary common-law jurisdictions, the law of intestacy is patterned after the common law of descent. Property goes first or in major part to a spouse, then to children and their descendants; if there are no descendants, the line of inheritance goes back up the family tree to the parents, the siblings, the siblings' descendants, the grandparents, the parents' siblings, and the parents' siblings' descendants, and usually so on further to the more remote degrees of kinship. The operation of these laws varies from one jurisdiction to another.

England and Wales
The rules of succession are the Intestacy Rules set out in the Administration of Estates Act 1925 (15 & 16 Geo. 5. c. 23) and associated legislation.

For deaths after 1 October 2014, the rules where someone dies intestate leaving a spouse or civil partner are as follows:
 * if there are no issue (i.e. children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren etc.) then the spouse or civil partner inherits the entire estate; or
 * if there are issue, the spouse or civil partner receives the personal chattels and the first £322,000, then half of everything else passing under the intestacy rules. The other half passes to the issue on the statutory trusts (see below).

Where there is no spouse or civil partner, the assets pass in the following order of priority, such that no-one is entitled in any lower category if there is a living person entitled in a higher one:
 * issue, on the statutory trusts (see below);
 * parents;
 * full-blood brothers and sisters, on the statutory trusts;
 * half-blood brothers and sisters, on the statutory trusts;
 * grandparents;
 * full-blood uncles and aunts, or any living descendants of deceased aunts or uncles (such as cousins), on the statutory trusts; or
 * half-blood uncles and aunts, or any living descendants of deceased half-aunts or half-uncles (such as half-cousins), on the statutory trusts.

In the above "the statutory trusts" mean:
 * that a person who would be entitled if they were adult does not become entitled until they attain 18; and
 * where a person who would have been entitled has predeceased the intestate, but has left issue, those issue who survive the intestate share, "per stirpes", their ancestor's share.

Where no beneficiaries on the above list exist, the person's estate generally escheats (i.e. is legally assigned) to the Crown (via the Bona vacantia division of the Treasury Solicitor) or to the Duchy of Cornwall or Duchy of Lancaster when the deceased was a resident of either. In limited cases a discretionary distribution might be made by one of these bodies to persons who would otherwise be without entitlement under strict application of the rules of inheritance.

These rules have been supplemented by the discretionary power of the court contained in the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975 so that fair provision can be made for a dependent spouse or other relative where the strict divisions set down in the intestacy rules would produce an unfair result, for example by providing additional support for a dependent minor or disabled child vis-a-vis an adult child who has a career and no longer depends on their parent.

Scotland
The law on intestacy in Scotland broadly follows that of England and Wales with some variations. A notable difference is that all possible (blood) relatives can qualify for benefit (i.e. they are not limited to grandparents or their descendants). Once a class is 'exhausted', succession continues to the next line of ascendants, followed by siblings, and so on. In a complete absence of relatives of the whole or half-blood, the estate passes to the Crown (as ultimus haeres). The Crown has a discretion to benefit people unrelated to the intestate, e.g. those with moral claims on the estate.

Canada
In Canada the laws vary from province to province. As in England, most jurisdictions apply rules of intestate succession to determine next of kin who become legal heirs to the estate. Also, as in England, if no identifiable heirs are discovered, the property may escheat to the government.

United States
In the United States intestacy laws vary from state to state. Each of the separate states uses its own intestacy laws to determine the ownership of residents' intestate property.

Attempts in the United States to make probate and intestate succession uniform from state to state, through efforts such as the Uniform Probate Code, have been met with limited success.

The distribution of the property of an intestate decedent is the responsibility of the administrator (or personal representative) of the estate: typically the administrator is chosen by the court having jurisdiction over the decedent's property, and is frequently (but not always) a person nominated by a majority of the decedent's heirs.

Federal law controls intestacy of Native Americans.

Many states have adopted all or part of the Uniform Probate Code, but often with local variations, In Ohio, the law of intestate succession has been modified significantly from the common law, and has been essentially codified. The state of Washington also has codified its intestacy law. New York has perhaps the most complicated law of descent of distribution. Maryland's intestacy laws specify not only the distribution, but also the order of the distribution among family members. Florida's intestacy statute permits the heirs of a deceased spouse of the decedent to inherit, if the decedent has no other heirs.

title: Intestacy


text:
Talk:Yousuf Karsh

IMO the photos are copyrighted
IMO the photos are copyrighted. Ericd 20:35 Feb 10, 2003 (UTC)

 * Photos are used under "fair use" provisions of copyright statutes. - Bison

 * Should we keep the photos ?

Ericd 20:24 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

 * This is an educational non-profit organization. As long as the photos are credited I don't believe anyone would even attempt to file suit against the wikipedia, especially in regards to a photo of Churchill or Einstein. Juan Hernandez

 * Wikipedia is not an educational organization.... Where are the classrooms ?

 * Yer in one... Juan Hernandez

 * We don't need fair use. These photos are Public Domain. I'm uploading better version of these photos giving proper referecences and copyright datas. Ericd 20:54 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Photos PD only in Cananda
Reproduction courtesy of the Karsh Estate In all important countries except of Canada the pictures are protected. The should be removed from commons to avoid litigation from Karsh Estate. --80.132.109.89 03:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC).

"Safety of Syria"?
The beginning of the biography starts by saying:

 * At the age of 14, Karsh fled with his family to the safety of Syria.

What was he fleeing, from which he would be safe in Syria? The article does not say! Michael Hardy 00:44, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Probably a consequence of the Armenian genocide ? Ericd 10:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Exactly. All canadian armenians would know Sumguy333 08:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Origin
He is of rather Turkish origin, also as the name and surname indicates. Brand 01:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That is not true. Did you read the article? Hakob 06:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman Armenian is the most accurate description, I think. Judging by his uncle, his surname appears to be a corruption of Nakkaş; Turkish for "sculptor". --Adoniscik(t, c) 19:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Passing
There isn't enough information on Mr Karsh's death. How did he die? Was he ill for a time? More info anyone? --Bentonia School 12:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Citizenship
Image:First official Canadian Citizenship ceremony at the Supreme Court building.jpg indicates that Karsh was among the first people sworn in as Canadian citizens in 1947. Is that worth mentioning in this article? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It's notable, so I'd say yes. The image is public domain, so it possibly could go in the article also (even though it's not a Karsh portrait:) Franamax (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarized article
Someone needs to review this and do a full rewrite. In looking for examples of Karsh's pictures, I found that this article was lifted almost in whole from this site at TwinIsles. --Harper (talk) 13:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 * They plagiarized us. See the credit at the bottom of the page. --Adoniscik(t, c) 19:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The article seems to follow very closely one which appears at http://www.famousphotographers.net/yousuf-karsh Very similar in content. Was one developed from the other? Xmitr2 (talk) 20:00, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Background on the Churchill photo(?)
I heard long ago that Karsh, having carefully posed the shot, reached over and took away Churchill's cigar seconds before the picture was taken -- causing the famous look of stern, cold disapproval. If someone can verify this story and work it into the flow of the article, it might be an interesting addition. Thulcandra (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, I agreed so much that I added two sentences with a source. Then I looked at the extensive dicussion of the incident in the "Work" section and reverted my own duplication of that. :) Seems to be well-covered already... Franamax (talk) 22:57, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * !! You're right. Missed that part of the article. Thulcandra (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

That section where it indicates that Karsh's favorite photo of Churchill is the smiling one he took after the more iconic picture -- could we link to the picture? I went looking for it, and I think it's this one (see the second picture on the page). Shilpanicodemus (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Studio Location
I just edited the page to correct the location of Karsh's studio from his return to Canada in the 1930s until he relocated it to the Chateau Laurier in 1973. I added external references to two articles to document this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RickDeNatale (talk • contribs) 22:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

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File nominated for deletion on commons
The file c:File:Sir Winston Churchill - 19086236948.jpg has been nominated for deletion on Commons Reason: I don't understand the decision above. The final comment, "The Karsh photo of Churchill is PD in Canada and the US since it was published in a 1945 issue of Life magazine. URAA affects images published or taken after 1945 in Canada. --Leoboudv 09:44, 21 August 2017 " is wrong. It was, indeed, the cover of Life in 1945. That issue of Life had its copyright renewed, so the image will be under copyright in the USA until 2040. Deletion request: link Message automatically deposited by a robot - -Harideepan (talk) 07:18, 3 March 2018 (UTC).

Career --- choice of subjects
I don't think he concentrated on important people all that much. He had to be commercial, after all. Which may be why he photographed me and my brother as schoolboys! Seadowns (talk) 13:44, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Error
Eisenhower was definitely not Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in 1946.Starhistory22 (talk) 08:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yousuf Karsh


text:
Andrew Young

Andrew Jackson Young Jr. (born March 12, 1932) is an American politician, diplomat, and activist. Beginning his career as a pastor, Young was an early leader in the civil rights movement, serving as executive director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) and a close confidant to Martin Luther King Jr. Young later became active in politics, serving as a U.S. Congressman from Georgia, United States Ambassador to the United Nations in the Carter Administration, and 55th Mayor of Atlanta. He was the first African American elected to Congress from Georgia since Reconstruction, as well as one of the first two African Americans elected to Congress from the former Confederacy since Reconstruction, alongside Barbara Jordan of Texas. Since leaving office, Young has founded or served in many organizations working on issues of public policy and political lobbying.

Early life
Andrew Young was born on March 12, 1932, in New Orleans, to Daisy Young, a schoolteacher, and Andrew Jackson Young, a dentist. Young's father hired a professional boxer to teach Andrew and his brother to defend themselves. In a 1964 interview with author Robert Penn Warren for his book, Who Speaks for the Negro?, Young recalls the tensions of segregation in New Orleans, especially growing up in a fairly well-to-do household. He recalls his parents trying to "compensate for segregation" by providing for their children but were reluctant to help less wealthy black communities in the area.

Young attended Dillard University for one year before graduating from Howard University. He then earned a divinity degree from Hartford Seminary in Hartford, Connecticut, in 1955. He is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity.

Early career
Young was appointed to serve as pastor of a church in Marion, Alabama. It was there in Marion that he met Jean Childs, who later became his wife. Young became interested in Mahatma Gandhi's concept of nonviolent resistance as a tactic for social change. He encouraged African Americans to register to vote in Alabama, and sometimes faced death threats while doing so. It was at this time that he became a friend and ally of Martin Luther King Jr.

In 1955 he accepted a pastorate at Bethany Congregational Church in Thomasville, Georgia.

In 1957, Young and Jean moved to New York City when he accepted a job with the Youth Division of the National Council of Churches. While in New York City, Young regularly appeared on Look Up and Live, a weekly Sunday morning television program on CBS, produced by the National Council of Churches in an effort to reach out to secular youth.

Young served as a pastor of the Evergreen Congregational Church in Beachton, Georgia, from 1957 to 1959.

In 1960, he joined the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. No longer satisfied with his work in New York City, Young moved to Atlanta, Georgia, in 1961 upon the invitation of Bernard Lafayette and worked to register black voters. Young played a key role in the 1963 events in Birmingham, Alabama, serving as a mediator between the white and black communities as they negotiated against a background of protests.

In 1964, Young was named executive director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. As a colleague and friend of Martin Luther King Jr., he was a strategist and negotiator during the Civil Rights Campaigns in Birmingham (1963), St. Augustine (1964), Selma (1965), and Atlanta (1966). He was jailed for his participation in civil rights demonstrations, both in Selma, Alabama, and in St. Augustine, Florida. The movement gained congressional passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. Young was with King in Memphis, Tennessee, when King was assassinated in 1968.

Congress
In 1970, Andrew Young ran as a Democrat for the 5th District seat in the US House of Representatives, from Georgia, but was unsuccessful. After his defeat, Rev. Fred C. Bennette Jr. introduced him to Murray M. Silver, an Atlanta attorney, who served as his campaign finance chairman. Young ran again in 1972 and won. He later was re-elected in 1974 and in 1976. During his four-plus years in Congress, he was a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, and was involved in several debates regarding foreign relations, including the decision to stop supporting the Portuguese attempts to hold on to their colonies in southern Africa. Young also sat on the powerful Rules Committee and the Banking and Urban Development Committee. Young opposed the Vietnam War, helped enact legislation that established the U.S. Institute for Peace, established the Chattahoochee River National Recreation Area and negotiated federal funds for MARTA and the Atlanta Highways.

American Ambassador to the United Nations
In 1977, President Jimmy Carter appointed Young to serve as the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. Young was the first African American to hold the position. Atlanta city councilman Wyche Fowler won the special election to fill Young's seat in Congress.

Although the US and the UN enacted an arms embargo against South Africa, as President Carter's UN ambassador, Young vetoed economic sanctions.

Young caused controversy when, during a July 1978 interview with French newspaper Le Matin de Paris while discussing the Soviet Union and its treatment of political dissidents, he said, "We still have hundreds of people that I would categorize as political prisoners in our prisons", in reference to jailed civil-rights and anti-war protestors. In response, US Representative Larry McDonald (D-GA) sponsored a resolution to impeach Young, but the measure failed 293 to 82. Carter referred to it in a press conference as an "unfortunate statement."

In 1979, Young played a leading role in advancing a settlement in Rhodesia with Robert Mugabe and Joshua Nkomo, who had been two of the rebel leaders in the Rhodesian Bush War, which had ended in 1979. The settlement paved the way for Mugabe to take power as Prime Minister of the newly formed Republic of Zimbabwe. There had been a general election in 1979, bringing Bishop Abel Muzorewa to power as leader of the United African National Council leading to the short-lived country of Zimbabwe Rhodesia. Though majority rule had been implemented, many in the international community felt that the reforms were not wide-ranging enough. Young refused to accept the election results and described the election as "neofascist," a sentiment echoed by United Nations Security Council Resolution 445 and 448. The situation was resolved the next year with the Lancaster House Agreement and the establishment of Zimbabwe.

Young's favoring of Mugabe and Nkomo over Muzorewa and his predecessor and ally, Ian Smith, has been controversial. Many African-American activists, including Jesse Jackson and Coretta Scott King, supported the anticolonialism represented by Mugabe and Nkomo. However, it was opposed by others, including civil-rights leader Bayard Rustin, who argued that the 1979 election had been "free and fair", as well as Senators Harry F. Byrd Jr. (I-VA) and Jesse Helms (R-NC). It was later criticized in 2005 by Gabriel Shumba, executive director of the anti-Mugabe Zimbabwe Exiles Forum.

In July 1979, Young discovered that an upcoming report by the United Nations Division for Palestinian Rights called for the creation of a Palestinian State. Young wanted to delay the report because the Carter Administration was dealing with too many other issues at the time. He met with the UN representatives of several Arab countries to try to convince them the report should be delayed; they agreed in principle but insisted that the Palestine Liberation Organization also had to agree. As a result, on July 20, Young met with Zuhdi Labib Terzi, the UN representative of the PLO, at the apartment of the UN Ambassador from Kuwait. On August 10, news of the meeting became public when the Mossad leaked its illegally-acquired transcript of the meeting first to Prime Minister Menachem Begin, and then through his office to Newsweek. The meeting was highly controversial since the United States had already promised Israel that it would not meet directly with the PLO until it recognized Israel's right to exist.

During the controversy, Young took a break and was invited by John F. Kennedy Jr. to speak about apartheid in South Africa at Brown University.

Young's UN ambassadorship ended on August 14. Carter denied any complicity in what was called the "Andy Young Affair" and asked Young to resign. Asked about the incident by Time soon afterward, Young stated, "It is very difficult to do the things that I think are in the interest of the country and maintain the standards of protocol and diplomacy.... I really don't feel a bit sorry for anything that I have done." Soon afterward, on the television show Meet the Press, he stated that Israel was "stubborn and intransigent."

After his ambassadorship ended, Young became a guest lecturer at Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan.

Atlanta mayor
In 1981, after being urged by a number of people, including Coretta Scott King, the widow of Martin Luther King Jr., Young ran for mayor of Atlanta. He was elected later that year with 55% of the vote, succeeding Maynard Jackson. As mayor of Atlanta, he brought in $70 billion of new private investment. He continued and expanded Jackson's programs for including minority and female-owned businesses in all city contracts. The Mayor's Task Force on Education established the Dream Jamboree College Fair that tripled the college scholarships given to Atlanta public school graduates. In 1985, he was involved in renovating the Atlanta Zoo, which was renamed Zoo Atlanta. Young was re-elected as mayor in 1985 with more than 80% of the vote. Atlanta hosted the 1988 Democratic National Convention during Young's tenure. He was prohibited by term limits from running for a third term. During his tenure, he talked about how he was "glad to be mayor of this city, where once the mayor had me thrown in jail."

A 1993 survey of historians, political scientists and urban experts conducted by Melvin G. Holli of the University of Illinois at Chicago saw Young ranked as the fifteenth-best American big-city mayor to serve between the years 1820 and 1993. The survey also saw Young ranked the fifth-best big-city mayor to serve in office post-1960.

1990 Georgia gubernatorial election
After leaving the mayor's office in early 1990, Young launched a bid for the Democratic nomination for governor in 1990. He ran in a primary that included three former or future governors of Georgia: then lieutenant governor Zell Miller, then-state senator Roy Barnes, and former governor Lester Maddox. The field also contained then state representative Lauren "Bubba" McDonald. The first poll put Young at 38 percent to Miller's 30 percent, 15 percent for Maddox and 10 percent for Barnes with McDonald trailing at 7 percent. Young campaigned hard but by the primary, with no central message, his campaign ran into trouble against the well-heeled and prepared lieutenant governor. Miller led the primary with 40 percent to Young's 29 percent and 21 percent for Barnes, Maddox got 7 percent and McDonald rounded out at 3 percent. Future U.S. senator Johnny Isakson won the Republican nomination. After Miller's stunning and broad-based primary win, Young's campaign floundered. Many think he failed in his effort by trying to garner support amongst rural, conservative white voters, rather than turning out his urban and African-American base. Also, Young never found an issue that roused supporters, unlike Miller, who won voters by championing a state lottery. Miller won the runoff, 2 to 1 and ended Young's gubernatorial aspirations for good.

Post-mayoral career
Young has been a director of the Drum Major Institute for Public Policy, and is also the chairman of the board for the Global Initiative for the Advancement of Nutritional Therapy.

In 1996, Young was co-chairman of the 1996 Summer Olympic Games.

From 2000 to 2001, Young served as president of the National Council of Churches.

In 2003, Young founded the Andrew Young Foundation, an organization meant to support and promote education, health, leadership and human rights in the United States, Africa and the Caribbean.

From February to August 2006, Young served as the public spokesman for Working Families for Walmart, an advocacy group for the retail chain Walmart. Young resigned from the position soon after a controversial interview with the Los Angeles Sentinel, in which, when asked about Walmart hurting independent businesses, he replied, "You see those are the people who have been overcharging us, and they sold out and moved to Florida. I think they've ripped off our communities enough. First it was Jews, then it was Koreans and now it's Arabs."

In 2007, GoodWorks Productions released the documentary film Rwanda Rising, about Rwanda's progress since the Rwandan genocide of 1994. Young also served as the film's narrator. Rwanda Rising premiered as the opening night selection at the Pan African Film Festival in Los Angeles in 2007.

An edited version of Rwanda Rising served as the pilot episode of Andrew Young Presents, a series of quarterly, hour-long specials airing on nationally syndicated television.

On January 22, 2008, Young appeared as a guest on the television show The Colbert Report. Host Stephen Colbert invited Young to appear during the writers' strike, because, in 1969, Young and Colbert's father had worked together to mediate a hospital workers' strike. Young made another appearance on The Colbert Report on November 5, 2008, to talk about the election of Barack Obama to the presidency.

On January 19, 2015, Young gave the keynote address at Vanderbilt University's Martin Luther King Jr. Commemoration Day. The theme was "Dismantling Segregation: Race, Poverty, and Privilege", and Young spoke about his experiences in Selma, stories of traveling with King, and his advice to the next generation of leaders.

On May 13, 2019, Young gave the keynote address at Emory University's spring commencement ceremony.

On May 29, 2020, Young remarked on the protests in Atlanta in reaction to the murder of George Floyd. He stated that riots, violence, and looting "hurt the cause instead of helping it".

Young is co-chairman of Rodney Cook Sr. Park along with National Monuments Foundation president Rodney Mims Cook Jr. This peace park is located in the Vine City neighborhood on Atlanta's westside and has a strong civil rights focus.

In 2023, Young launched the "Andrew Young HBCU Scholarship Program" funded by McGraw Hill Education in partnership with the Institute of World Politics Chair of Law and Human Rights, Matthew Daniels and the Thurgood Marshall College Fund. The scholarship is awarded to students who "demonstrate the vision and leadership potential to be an ambassador for the unifying, non-violent principles of Dr. King and Ambassador Young, rooted in respect for the fundamental dignity, rights, and equality of all human beings." Young also endorsed a companion bible study for those seeking to apply Dr. King's teachings to improving their communities.

Personal life and family
Young has four children with his first wife, Jean Childs Young, who died of liver cancer in 1994. His mother-in-law was Idella Jones Childs. He married Carolyn McClain in 1996.

In September 1999, Young was diagnosed with prostate cancer which was successfully removed with surgery in January 2000.

Books

 * An Easy Burden: The Civil Rights Movement and the Transformation of America. (January 1998);
 * A Way Out of No Way. (June 1996);
 * Andrew Young at the United Nations. (January 1978);
 * Andrew Young, Remembrance & Homage. (January 1978);
 * The History of the Civil Rights Movement. (9 volumes) (September 1990);
 * Trespassing Ghost: A Critical Study of Andrew Young. (January 1978);
 * Walk in My Shoes: Conversations between a Civil Rights Legend and his Godson on the Journey Ahead with Kabir Sehgal. (May 2010) ISBN 978-0-230-62360-6;

Writings

 * Young, Andrew, Harvey Newman, and Andrea Young. 2016. Andrew Young and the Making of Modern Atlanta. Macon, GA: Mercer University Press.

Awards and honors

 * Presidential Medal of Freedom;
 * France's Légion d'honneur;
 * The NAACP Spingarn Medal;
 * Four Freedoms Award for the Freedom of Worship;
 * More than 45 honorary degrees including awards from Dartmouth, Yale, Notre Dame, Clark Atlanta, Emory, Oglethorpe University, Lakeland University and the University of Georgia;
 * 1978 Adam Clayton Powell Award (Phoenix Award)
 * Legend in Leadership Award, Yale University
 * 1983 Golden Plate Award of the American Academy of Achievement
 * 1995 Eagle Award from the United States Sports Academy. The Eagle Award is the Academy's highest honor and was awarded to Young for his significant contribution to international sport.
 * 1996 Harold Washington Award (Phoenix Award)
 * Honorary Co-Chair of the World Justice Project;
 * 2005 "Louisiana Legend" by Louisiana Public Broadcasting in Baton Rouge, along with timber industrialist Roy O. Martin Jr., comedian Kix Brooks, and the Louisiana State University athletic legends Paul Dietzel and Sue Gunter
 * 2010 Heroes, Saints and Legends Honoree, given by the Foundation of Wesley Woods;
 * The 2011 Lifetime Achievement Emmy Award, for his involvement on Look Up and Live;
 * 2012 Georgia Trustee. Given by the Georgia Historical Society, in conjunction with the Governor of Georgia, to individuals whose accomplishments and community service reflect the ideals of the founding body of Trustees, which governed the Georgia colony from 1732 to 1752.
 * 2018 Ivan Allen Jr. Prize for Social Courage.
 * 2023 induction into the Black Music & Entertainment Walk of Fame.

Places named after Andrew Young

 * In 1999 Georgia State University in Atlanta renamed its public policy school the Andrew Young School of Policy Studies to honor Young.
 * International Boulevard, near Centennial Olympic Park, was renamed Andrew Young International Boulevard, in honor of his involvement in bringing the 1996 Summer Olympics to Atlanta.
 * The Andrew Young Center for International Affairs at Morehouse College was named after Young.
 * The Andrew and Walter Young YMCA, the only full-service YMCA operating in Southwest Atlanta, is named after Young and his younger brother.
 * A Delta Air Lines Boeing 767-300ER bears Young's name in recognition of his civil rights achievements.
 * On March 11, 2021, Delta Air Lines renamed the building at the entrance to their headquarters as the "Ambassador Andrew J. Young International Building "
 * The Andrew Young Crossing in St. Augustine, FL

In popular culture
Young is played by Andre Holland in the 2014 film Selma.

Young is played by Howard E. Rollins Jr. in the 1978 television miniseries King.

title: Andrew Young


text:
Black Swan Records

Black Swan Records was an American jazz and blues record label founded in 1921 in Harlem, New York. It was the first widely distributed label to be owned, operated, and marketed to African Americans. Founded by Harry Pace with W.C. Handy, Black Swan Records was established to give African Americans more creative liberties. Eighteen months earlier, in 1919, the Broome Special Phonograph Records was the earliest label owned and operated by African American George W. Broome in Medford, Massachusetts, featuring Black classical musicians including Harry T. Burleigh and Edward Boatner. Black Swan was revived in the 1990s for CD reissues of its historic jazz and blues recordings.

History
Black Swan's parent company, Pace Phonograph Corporation, was founded in March 1921 by Harry Pace and was based in Harlem. The new production company was formed after Pace's music publishing partnership with W. C. Handy, Pace & Handy, had dissolved. Black Swan, which sought to specialize in classical recordings, served as an investment opportunity for the Talented Tenth. As recognized by Thomas Brothers, "luminaries like Jack Nail and James Weldon Johnson served on the Black Swan board of directors", and The Crisis, the journal then edited by W.E.B. Du Bois, and published by the NAACP, invested its profits in the company.

Bert Williams was an early investor in Pace Phonograph. Williams also promised to record for the company once his exclusive contract with Columbia Records ended, but he died before that could occur.

Pace Phonograph Corporation was renamed Black Swan Phonograph Company in the fall of 1922. Both the record label and production company were named after 19th century opera star Elizabeth Greenfield, who was known as the Black Swan.

Former employees of Pace & Handy staffed the new company: Fletcher Henderson, who functioned as the recording manager, provided piano accompaniment for singers and led a small band for recording sessions. William Grant Still was named arranger and later musical director. Ads for Black Swan often ran in The Crisis.

Black Swan proved moderately successful. It recorded African American musicians, but as the label grew in popularity, Pace believed competing white-owned labels such as Columbia Records sought to "obstruct the progress and curtail the popularity of Black Swan Records". Although advertising for Black Swan Records claimed all its musicians and employees were African American, it sometimes used white musicians to back some of its singers.

The production company declared bankruptcy in December 1923, and in March 1924 Paramount Records bought the Black Swan label. The Chicago Defender reported the event by detailing important accomplishments of Black Swan in a short career span, including: pointed out—to the major, all white-owned, record companies—the significant market demand for black artists; prompted several major companies to begin publishing music by these performers. In addition, the Defender credited Pace with showing the majors how to target black audiences and to advertise in black newspapers. Paramount discontinued the Black Swan label a short time later.

The Black Swan label was revived in the 1990s for a series of CD reissues of historic jazz and blues recordings originally issued on Black Swan and Paramount. These CDs were issued by George H. Buck Jr's Jazzology and GHB labels under the control of the George H. Buck Jr. Jazz Foundation, which gained rights to the Paramount back-catalogue but not the Paramount name. Rights to the name "Black Swan Records" were also transferred to GHB.

Artists

 * Bessie Allison, original member of the Shuffle Along cast
 * C. Carroll Clark, baritone who was the first artist recorded by the label
 * Four Harmony Kings, vocal quartet
 * Henry Creamer and J. Turner Layton, vaudeville duo
 * Katie Crippen, vaudeville singer
 * Kemper Harreld, violinist
 * Lucille Hegamin, jazz and blues singer
 * Revella Hughes, soprano featured on one of the label's first releases
 * Alberta Hunter, blues singer
 * James P. Johnson, jazz pianist
 * Nettie Moore was a singer who recorded "Deep River" (1922) /"Song of India" (1922) and "Christmas Chimes" with Ethel Waters on Black Swan.
 * Hattie King Reavis, soprano singer
 * Trixie Smith, blues singer, second only to Ethel Waters in Black Swan sales.
 * Florence Cole Talbert, first classical artist to record with Black Swan, soprano, music educator
 * "Mamie Jones", pseudonym for singer Aileen Stanley who was one of many white artists to record for Black Swan. These artists were "passing for colored" since the label was advertised as featuring only black artists.
 * Eva Taylor, blues singer
 * Ethel Waters, jazz, gospel, blues singer. She had the label's first commercially successful records, and remained their best seller.
 * Essie Whitman, vaudeville singer

title: Black Swan Records


text:
Porta Westfalica

Porta Westfalica is a town in the district of Minden-Lübbecke, in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

The name "Porta Westfalica" is Latin and means "gate to Westphalia". Coming from the north, the gorge is the entry to the region of Westphalia. The name was coined by scholars of the 19th century.

History
The town Porta Westfalica was established in 1973 by merging fifteen villages surrounding the gorge. The centre of the modern town is the former village of Hausberge, which was first mentioned in 1096.

The Emperor William Monument was erected near the town by the then Prussian Province of Westphalia between 1892 and 1896 The monument, which is around 88 metres high, is classified as one of Germany's national monuments.

From 18 March 1944 until 1 April 1945 a concentration camp was established in the Barkhausen quarter. From 1 February 1945 until 1 April 1945 a camp was used in the Hausberge quarter. In the Lerbeck quarter also was a concentration camp in use from 1 October 1944 until 1 April 1945. In the Neesen quarter was a location for the forced labour for some of the inmates. All of these camps were subcamps of the Neuengamme concentration camp.

On 10 January 2015, Belgian footballer Junior Malanda died in a car accident near the town, aged 20.

Geography
Porta Westfalica is situated on the right bank of the Weser (except for the Barkhausen quarter), near the Porta Westfalica gorge, where the river runs through the passage between the mountain chains of the Wiehen Hills in the west and the Weser Uplands in the east. The gorge appears like a gate to the region Westphalia, which lies to the south of it. It is overlooked by the Jakobsberg and Wittekindsberg hills.

Neighbouring places

 * Bad Oeynhausen
 * Bückeburg
 * Minden
 * Rinteln
 * Vlotho

Division of the town
The town of Porta Westfalica consists of 15 districts:

 * Hausberge (5,064 inhabitants)
 * Lohfeld (1,350 inhabitants)
 * Barkhausen (4,253 inhabitants)
 * Neesen (2,319 inhabitants)
 * Lerbeck (3,727 inhabitants)
 * Nammen (2,208 inhabitants)
 * Wülpke (606 inhabitants)
 * Kleinenbremen (2,245 inhabitants)
 * Eisbergen (3,401 inhabitants)
 * Veltheim (2,539 inhabitants)
 * Möllbergen (1,643 inhabitants)
 * Holtrup (1,048 inhabitants)
 * Vennebeck (983 inhabitants)
 * Costedt (508 inhabitants)
 * Holzhausen (4,284 inhabitants)

Buildings and structures

 * Jakobsberg Telecommunication Tower, a TV tower with an observation deck
 * Monument to Kaiser Wilhelm I, above the gorge, near the village Barkhausen
 * Wittekindsburg, remains of an Iron Age "oppidum" (3rd – 1st century BC) and Saxon-Frankish fort (8th/9th century AD), in the Wiehen Hills near Barkhausen

Twin towns – sister cities
Porta Westfalica is twinned with:
 * 🇩🇪 Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg (Berlin), Germany
 * 🇺🇸 Waterloo, United States

title: Porta Westfalica