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Caper story

The caper story is a subgenre of crime fiction. The typical caper story involves one or more crimes (especially thefts, swindles, or occasionally kidnappings) perpetrated by the main characters in full view of the reader. The actions of police or detectives attempting to prevent or solve the crimes may also be chronicled, but are not the main focus of the story.

The caper story is distinguished from the straight crime story by elements of humor, adventure, or unusual cleverness or audacity. The main characters often have comical idiosyncrasies and the law enforcement individuals are characterized by ineptitude or inadequacies. The criminals comically plan a crime with details unnecessary for the nature of the crime, and humour is created when their personalities clash and their quirks are exposed. For instance, the Dortmunder stories of Donald E. Westlake are highly comic tales involving unusual thefts by a gang of offbeat characters — in different stories Dortmunder's gang steals the same gem several times, steals an entire branch bank, and kidnaps someone from an asylum by driving a stolen train onto the property. By contrast, the same author's Parker stories (published under the name Richard Stark) are grimly straightforward accounts of mundane crime — the criminal equivalent of the police procedural. Others, such as Lawrence Block's Bernie Rhodenbarr novels, feature a role reversal, an honest criminal and crooked cop, and the use of burglar Rhodenbarr's criminal talents to solve murders.

A caper may appear as a subplot in a larger work. For example, Tom Sawyer's plot to steal Jim out of slavery in the last part of Huckleberry Finn is a classic caper.

Etymology
The verb to caper means to leap in a frolicsome way, and probably derives from capriole, which derives from the Latin for goat (Capra). The noun caper means a frolicsome leap, a capricious escapade or an illegal or questionable act.

Literature

 * "Arsène Lupin, Gentleman Burglar" (1907) by Maurice Leblanc
 * "The Ransom of Red Chief" (1910) by O. Henry: two kidnappers find that the little boy they are holding for ransom is more dangerous than the law
 * early stories of "The Saint" (beginning in 1928) by Leslie Charteris
 * The Asphalt Jungle (1949) by W. R. Burnett, adapted for film in 1950, 1958, 1963 and 1972
 * novels by John Boland such as The League of Gentlemen (1958) and The Golden Fleece (1961)
 * The Light of Day (1962) by Eric Ambler (filmed as Topkapi)
 * the Modesty Blaise stories (beginning in 1963) of Peter O'Donnell
 * the John Dortmunder series (beginning in 1970) and other novels by Donald E. Westlake
 * Sledgehammer (1971) by Walter Wager
 * A Tough One to Lose (1972) by Tony Kenrick
 * The Taking of Pelham One Two Three (1973) by John Godey— a subway car is hijacked and held for ransom
 * The Great Train Robbery (1975) by Michael Crichton
 * Stealing Lillian (1975) by Tony Kenrick
 * The Seven Day Soldiers (1976) by Tony Kenrick
 * Faraday's Flowers (1978) — adapted as Shanghai Surprise
 * Two Lucky People (1981) by Tony Kenrick
 * Swindle (2008) By Gordon Korman
 * Mistborn: The Final Empire (2006) By Brandon Sanderson
 * The Lies of Locke Lamora (2006) by Scott Lynch
 * Heist Society (2010) by Ally Carter
 * Most books by Janet Evanovich

Television

 * Now You See It, Now You Don't, a 1968 TV-movie about an art expert who is hired by an insurance company to protect a Rembrandt on loan from the Louvre and later hatches a scheme to steal it
 * Hustle, a British series created by Tony Jordan (2004–2012).
 * Leverage, a TNT series created by Dean Devlin (2008–2012).
 * Olsen-banden, a Danish comedy series.

title: Caper story


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Judgment notwithstanding verdict

Judgment notwithstanding the verdict, also called judgment non obstante veredicto, or JNOV, is a type of judgment as a matter of law that is sometimes rendered at the conclusion of a jury trial.

In American state courts, JNOV is the practice whereby the presiding judge in a civil jury trial may overrule the decision of a jury and reverse or amend their verdict. In literal terms, the judge enters a judgment notwithstanding the jury verdict. The rarely granted intervention permits the judge to exercise discretion to avoid extreme and unreasonable jury decisions. In civil cases in U.S. federal court, the term was replaced in 1991 by the renewed judgment as a matter of law, which emphasizes its relationship to the judgment as a matter of law, formerly called a directed verdict.

A judge may not enter a JNOV of "guilty" following a jury acquittal in United States criminal cases. Such an action would violate a defendant's Fifth Amendment right not to be placed in double jeopardy and Sixth Amendment right to a trial by jury. If the judge grants a motion to set aside judgment after the jury convicts, however, the action may be reversed on appeal by the prosecution. This can only be appealed after a guilty verdict; a judgment cannot be appealed if made after the prosecution rests, but before the defense begins, rather than after a verdict. In U.S. federal criminal cases, the term is "judgment of acquittal".

A JNOV is appropriate only if the judge determines that no reasonable jury could have reached the given verdict as a matter of law. For example, if a party enters no evidence on an essential element of their case but the jury, the finder of fact, still finds in their favor, the court may rule that no reasonable jury would have disregarded the lack of evidence on that key point and reform the judgment. Even if a judge erroneously excludes evidence and acquits on the basis of insufficient evidence, a judgement of acquittal cannot be appealed, as ruled by the Supreme Court in Sanabria v. United States (1978).

The reversal of a jury's verdict by a judge occurs when the judge believes that there were insufficient facts on which to base the jury's verdict or that the verdict did not correctly apply the law. That procedure is similar to a situation in which a judge orders a jury to arrive at a particular verdict, called a directed verdict. A judgment notwithstanding the verdict is occasionally made when a jury refuses to follow a judge's instruction to arrive at a certain verdict.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Judgment notwithstanding verdict


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Interlibrary loan

Interlibrary loan (abbreviated ILL, sometimes called document delivery, document supply, interlending, interlibrary services, interloan, or resource sharing) is a service that enables patrons of one library to borrow materials that are held by another library.

Methods
After receiving a request, the borrowing library identifies potential lending libraries with the desired item. The lending library then delivers the item physically or electronically, and the borrowing library receives the item, delivers it to their patron, and if necessary, arranges for its return. In some cases, fees accompany interlibrary loan services.

Libraries can define what materials from their holdings are eligible for interlibrary loan. Many journal or database licenses specify whether a library can or cannot supply journal articles via ILL, with libraries negotiating for ILL eligibility.

With multiple interlibrary loan systems in use, the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) developed ISO standards 10160 and 10161 to standardize terminology and define a set of communication protocols between various interlibrary loan systems.

History
Informal borrowing and lending between libraries has examples in Western Europe as early as the 8th century CE.

In the 16th century, Nicolas Claude Fabri de Peiresc unsuccessfully attempted to establish an interlibrary loan system between the Royal Library at the Louvre Palace in Paris and the Vatican Library in Rome. In 1876, Massachusetts librarian Samuel Swett Green published a proposal for an interlibrary loan system modeled on European examples, writing, "It would add greatly to the usefulness of our reference libraries if an agreement should be made to lend books to each other for short periods of time." In 1886, Joseph C. Rowell, librarian at the University of California, Berkeley, sought permission to begin an interlibrary loan program. In 1894, Rowell initiated U.C. Berkeley's first program of interlibrary lending with the California State Library. In 1917, the American Library Association established a national code for interlibrary loan in the United States.

In China, formalized interlibrary loan policies were established as early as 1924 through the Shanghai Library Constitution.

In 1927, an increase in international lending and borrowing between libraries following the First World War led to the establishment of the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA). IFLA published the "International Resource Sharing and Document Delivery: Principles and Guidelines for Procedure" in 1954.

In Great Britain, Kate Edith Pierce became the chair of the newly formed East Midlands Regional Library Bureau in 1935. Enabled by Carnegie Trust funding, the Bureau introduced formalized "Inter-Library Lending".

The Ohio State University and others in Ohio began integrating campus library systems at an early date. In the 1960s, state funds supported development of the Ohio College Library Center, now the Online Computer Library Center or OCLC.

In 1994, the Reference and User Services Association (RUSA) of the ALA (America Library Association) formed an ALA Interlibrary Loan Code for the United States.

In 1997, following a flash flood that significantly damaged its physical journal holdings, Colorado State University developed RapidILL as a resource sharing solution for expedited article delivery. The service has since grown to include over 300 member libraries internationally, with most member libraries in the United States. In 2019, Ex Libris acquired RapidILL from CSU.

Resource sharing networks
Libraries have established voluntary associations for resource sharing, organized on a regional or national basis, or through other affiliations such as university systems with multiple campuses, communities of libraries with related holdings and research interests, or established library consortia.

The International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA) guides interlibrary loan policies internationally.

North America
In the U.S., OCLC is used by public and academic libraries. Formerly, RLIN (Research Libraries Information Network) was used primarily by academic libraries, but merged with OCLC on October 1, 2007. The Center for Research Libraries is a major resource sharing network in North America with a buy-in membership system. Other large resource sharing networks include Libraries Very Interested in Sharing (LVIS) and Amigos.

Medical libraries in the United States participate in the National Network of Libraries of Medicine to share resources. The National Library of Medicine developed the request routing system DOCLINE for this purpose.

Africa
The South African Bibliographic and Information Network (SABINET) was developed in 1983 for the purposes of collection development and resource sharing across libraries in South Africa.

In Ghana, the Ghana Inter-Library Lending and Document Delivery Network (GILLDDNET) pioneered resource sharing in West Africa. The network was replaced in 2004 by the Consortium of Academic and Research Libraries (CARLIGH).

Central and South America
Consorcio Iberoamericano para la Educación en Ciencia y Tecnología (ISTEC) is a consortium and resource sharing network of 50 institutions across 17 countries in Latin America and the Iberian Peninsula, with a focus on sharing science and technology materials. Many ISTEC member libraries use the ILL software Celsius, which was developed as part of the consortium initiative.

Consorcio de Bibliotecas Universitarias de El Salvador (CBUES) is a resource sharing consortium of institutions on the Atlantic coast, including libraries from Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Mexico and Panama.

Europe
In France, the PEB interlibrary loan network services over 300 libraries using the SUPEB ILL software.

In Germany, Gateway Bayern is the interlibrary loan network and tool for Bavarian libraries, including the Bavarian State Library.

Asia
DELNET, the Developing Library Network (formerly the Delhi Library Network), is a large resource sharing network supporting India and South Asia.

The National Diet Library of Japan serves as a resource sharing hub for Japanese-language materials domestically and internationally.

Launched in 2000, China Academic Library and Information System (CALIS) is a Beijing-based academic library consortium that facilitates interlibrary loan among research libraries in China.

Oceania
Australia uses Libraries Australia, and New Zealand utilizes the New Zealand Libraries' Catalogue.

title: Interlibrary loan


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Talk:Sun Tzu

Sun Tzu Link Suggestion
Lost History-Sun Tzu & The Art of WarTokarski21 (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Taoism
How is Taoism related to Sun Tzu? The article says nothing about it, nor does the template name him?--Redtigerxyz (talk) 09:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Recently added information covers this point. Sun Tzu is listed in the template as Sunzi (as the template uses pinyin spelling). Vassyana (talk) 10:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I think it is related because of one passage among others specificaly; to transmute, permutate oneself into "gold". And where the enemy goes left your go right etc.. Also the names Tze and Tzu seem to put forward a relation of kin. Deun
 * Heh. — Llywelyn II   12:54, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In answer to your question, because "Taoism" is basically catch-all for "generic traditional Chinese religion" and "culture", as opposed to the more systematic philosophies put out by the Legalists, Confucians, and Buddhists: anyone doing esoteric theorizing in ancient China basically gets lumped in. — Llywelyn II   12:54, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Dates unkown?
Well, if the dates of birth and death are unknown, it would probably be appreciated if there were approxamate times of death.--Archeopteryx (talk) 02:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree; done. Gary King  ( talk ) 22:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

 * His dates of birth and death are unknown because he did not exist. He was a made up person based on Sun Bin and Wu Qi. See my post under "History Created Myth, Myth Became History".--VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

His battles and wars?
Are there any accounts or supposed accounts of his military conflicts? I was looking for perhaps people who may have been his rivals or greatest enemies. --Cyberman (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no accounts of his battles because there was none because he did not exist. He was a combination of Suen Bing and Wu Chi. See my post under "History Created Myth, Myth became History".--VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Problems
The conclusions and views of Mark McNeilly are questionable. I particularly like the statement how Norman Schwarzkopf practiced Sun's principles. While uncertain (as I'm not a military officer) I certainly believe that most officers (Schwarzkopf too) read and study The Art of War besides many other manuals of strategy and tactics. They study the campaigns of all major warlords like Hannibal, Napoleon, Rommel, etc. However Schwarzkopf mentioned (praised) Hannibal and not Sun Tzu.

IMHO McNeilly seems to be seeing what he wants to see and the influence of The Art of War upon modern China seems to be exaggerated. Flamarande (talk) 15:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Regardless of our personal opinions, we simply report what reliable sources have said about a topic. --Vassyana (talk) 13:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

 * "Both deceased rap legend Tupac Shakur and NFL star Plaxico Burress have reported having read The Art of War during their prison sentences. This contributed, in part, to Tupac's Makaveli alter ego, as well as Burress' cultivation of a love of reading which he credits with providing him the balance he needed to successfully return to the NFL." I deleted this from the article, both were reported to have read The Art of War, not verified or linked.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.144 (talk) 21:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As well as being dubiously notable or relevant (cf. wp:undue)... — Llywelyn II   13:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

BCE/CE vs. BC/AD
There have been a number of changes from one system of dating eras and then back again. WP:ERA reads in part "Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors." This has occasioned disputes over which was the "original" system for this article; one editor changed it to the BC/AD model by arguing that the BCE/CE format had been introduced some months earlier.

Since WP:ERA permits this issue to be decided by reasoned consensus, I propose that we establish a consensus. I will get the ball rolling by stating my view that the BCE/CE system is preferable when discussing non-Western topics and when the academic practice in that field favors it. It is my understanding that Sun Tzu fits these criteria.  RJC  TalkContribs 18:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

 * There is no dispute whatsoever over which dating system is the the original (simply check the history of the article). This article has been BC/AD such since 8 October 2002 and as far I could verify remained completely unchallenged for over 6 years until 25 January 2009 when User:Vassyana changed it  to BCE/CE. I restored the original dating system and Vassyana changed it again on 10 September.

 * I hope that you (RJC) can provide hard evidence that English-speaking academia truly favours BCE/CE. I also wish to point out that the reasoning that "BCE/CE system is preferable when discussing non-Western topics" is your personal point of view on the matter. There isn't a clear definition of "non-Western topics" to start with and I could find no policy or recommendation anywhere that states that such articles should use BCE/CE. This is the English language wiki and AFAIK the English language predominantly uses BC/AD. Flamarande (talk) 23:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

 * For proof, you can read some current books and academic articles about this topic. Alternately, you may note that most museums now use the common era standard. Regardless, I'm not going to fight over this. Since it seems to matter significantly to some, let's leave it at BC/AD and focus on more productive issues. However, I must ask that you please do not remove cited information as unreferenced in the course of your edits. The paragraph is cited and the claim can be found in the source referenced. A correction of the obvious typo/repetitious text would have been helpful though. Vassyana (talk) 07:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * "... the BCE/CE system is preferable when discussing non-Western topics and when the academic practice in that field favors it." Although I do not fully agree with it, this is not an unreasonable point ... but it is one which needs to be made on WP:ERA, not here. Likewise, note that the policy is "Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors", not "or consensus for the change".  I do not see "substantial reason" for the change, and indeed am curious what would constitute a "substantial reason" for an issue which I personally consider rather trivial to begin with.  Therefore, I agree with the above suggestion that we keep the status quo, in concurrence with WP:ERA and to prevent unnecessary edit wars. CES (talk) 02:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I'd say that the wording of WP:ERA leaves what counts as a substantial reason to be determined by WP:CONSENSUS. In any case, if we are to take the suggestion to be "reason and consensus,"  there must be reasons that would warrant changing from one format to the other despite what was typed by the first person to make the distinction.  I think the best candidate for that sort of reason has to do with the article's content.  (As to the triviality of the distinction ... those who have problems calling Jesus "the Lord" or "Christ" tend to appreciate not having to refer to every date as "in the year of the Lord" or "before Christ."  It is like correcting Christians when they neglect to put "PBUH" after every written mention of Muhammad.)  RJC  TalkContribs 02:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Wait a minute there. So if I'm understanding you correctly all (or at least most) written mentions of Muhammad in the English wiki should be followed by a PBUH? PBUH isn't and never was a common feature in the English language. The article Muhammad doesn't seem to use PBUH. In your opinion any subject not "belonging" to the Western world should use BCE/CE? Let me see (give you a example): Ancient Rome? Yeah it is as Western as they come... oh wait the Romans were polytheists. Polytheism is definitely a non-Western characteristic. Sorry, all articles about ancient Rome must use BCE/CE. Same goes with the ancient Greeks. Democracy? Well, it was invented by the ancient polytheistic Greeks, wasn't it?

 * You are simply forgetting that the English language is a product of the Western world, that noone is qualified to define what is a Western subject and what isn't, and to impose a so-called "neutral dating system" at the expense of the most common one is playing politics. Wikipedia shouldn't dable in politics at all.

 * I truly believe that the majority of those who have problems calling Jesus "the Lord" or "Christ" (i.e.: not-Christians) have no problems in using BC and AD. I'm an atheist myself and have no problems whatsoever. I do have problems with ppl who under the disguise of "wanting to protect other peoples feelings" are (IMHO) playing politics and waging a political correctness campaign in OUR (not-Christians) name. BC/AD is simple the most common dating system on this planet, nothing more and nothing less. Flamarande (talk) 14:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Quite the opposite. Muhammad should not be followed by PBUH, even though that is a relatively minor thing to do, can be done unconsciously, and doesn't even refer to him as a prophet (who doesn't wish peace upon the dead?).  Similarly, AD and BC are relatively minor things to do and can be done unconsciously (though unlike PBUH they do refer to him as our lord or messiah).  The West has been predominantly Christian, but this simply means that Christian tropes have seeped into English the same way that Muslim tropes have seeped into Arabic, Persian, and the like.  My point is that BC/AD have the same status as PBUH, and we wouldn't consider insisting upon the latter … so why be opposed to opposition to the former?  As to Western/Everything Else, you are correct.  Yet, given that the guideline suggests that there do exist substantial reasons for preferring one format over the other beyond how the first editor to distinguish between eras did so, what could these reasons be, if not content specific?  RJC  TalkContribs 15:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree with Flamarande ... personally, I believe AD/BC have lost their literal meaning, in the same way that good-bye and bless you are not usually taken literally as statements reflecting religious faith (i.e. "God be with ye" and "God bless you") but simple conventions when parting or sneezing. Personally, I don't see why a "common era" which just so happens to coincide with the alleged birth of Jesus is any more applicable to the non-Western case than AD (i.e. what's so "common" about the common era?).  Again, however, this is just my opinion ... just as your comments reflect your opinion.  Because your arguments are generalizable to the whole of Wikipedia articles rather than isolated to the specific case of Sun Tzu, I again say that these arguments should be made at WP:ERA and not here. CES (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Agree with CES; what RJC is proposing is an important change of WP:ERA. IMHO the English language predominately uses BC/AD. The English language is supposed to be English and NOT neutral. Just because she has Christian influences/origins doesn't mean that the language itself should be censored/neutralized. Furthermore one would be forced to apply the same so-called "neutral" rules to the other language wikis, and that would be completely impossible. Flamarande (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Schwarzkopf and The Art of War
I suggest removing the sentence about General Schwarzkopf practicing Sun Tzu's principles until a better reference can be found. McNeilly offers no evidence that Schwarzkopf actually looked to Sun Tzu's teachings when developing his strategy; he just infers it (he also spells Schwarzkopf's name wrong). The military principles of "deception, speed, and attacking the enemy's weakness" existed in Western warfare long before anyone in the West had ever heard of Sun Tzu. Just because someone implemented those principles, which are pretty general, doesn't mean that it had anything to do with Sun Tzu. Ketone16 (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Ketone16. Mark McNeilly doesn't seem to claim that Schwarzkopf looked to Sun Tzu's teachings. He merely blabbers that Schwarzkopf used the same principles. Let me offer a comparision: Shaka Zulu used the same principles as Hannibal (basicly the 'Horns of the Buffalo' is the same as the 'Cannae tactic' - "Surround the enemy force at the right and left, leaving no space to manuever, and then destroy it"). Flamarande (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You are probably correct that the book makes an untenable claim, but it is published by Oxford University Press and so is a reliable source. That said, I don't think it needs a paragraph-long plug in the Legacy section (WP:UNDUE), and its conclusion about Schwartzkopf doesn't have to be stated as fact if there is a dispute about it (WP:NPOV).   RJC  TalkContribs 15:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

History created Myth, Myth became History
Chinese were very serious about history. They kept very detailed records. There was no comtemporary reference of Suen Wu (Sun Tzu). There were, however, records and contemporary references of Suen Bing and Wu Chi. Both were famous military strategists and wrote treatises on military strategies. They were sometimes referred to in combination, as Chinese often do, by their family names as Suen Wu. It is well known that Ching Shih Huang Ti burned all the books except religious and medicinal books and killed all the scholars except the Legalists. Some old books were hidden and later rediscovered during the Han Dynasty. It seems likely that, during this rediscovery, someone got confused and created a new person and name him Suen Wu and combined the remenants of Suen Bing's and Wu Chi's treatises and created the Art of War. --VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Sun Zi Bing Fa, Sun Bin Bing Fa and Wu Qi Wu Zi are different books by 3 different authors. This is quite clear after Chinese archaeologists discovered a tomb at Linyi, Shandong Province in April 1972. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.121.208.108 (talk) 12:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

 * The contention that early records don't mention Sunzi (/Sun Wu) is not true: he is mentioned in both the Spring and Autumn Annals (of Wu and Yue) and in the Shiji (scholars generally give credit to Sima Qian as having very reliable sources). Please provide evidence for the creation of the Art of War via the synthesis of Sun Bing's and Wu Qi's work.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Pinyin Please
Isn't the use of what I take to be a Wade-Giles spelling a bit archaic? Shouldn't the name and title of Master Sun be rendered in Pinyin, with 'Sun Tzu' and other variants redirected to it? Only thus will the correct usage begin to percolate through the society. (I have seen the name alphabetized Tzu, Sun in a bibliography recently.) Oldpilot (talk) 10:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:NC-ZH says that "Chinese names should be written in Hanyu Pinyin unless there is a more common romanization used in English." I think that Sun Tzu falls into the latter category, especially if the purpose of renaming the article Sunzi would be to propagate a less common spelling. In general, "the encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers." RJC TalkContribs 15:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree. We should absolutely discontinue the use of the idiotic illiterate Wade-Giles system. I always use only the pin-ying system. Therefore it should not only be Suen Tze, not Sun Tzu, but Li Bai, not Li Po. If everyone is willing to let the Indians change Bombay to Mumbai and Calcatta to Kolkata, I don't see why we can't insist on correct Chinese ping-ying and refuse to acknowledge Tao or tofu because there is no such thing as Tao or tofu. --VimalaNowlis (talk) 02:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by VimalaNowlis (talk • contribs)
 * Romanization systems are neither "correct" nor "incorrect" ... simply different. Wikipedia policy is on the side of RJC: keep at Sun Tzu. CES (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed with CES Flamarande (talk) 16:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Aw, c'mon. Not that it changes WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME, but Pinyin is certainly more correct than actual Wade... even better (for my money) than the mythical Wade of legend where people include the apostrophes and tone numbers. — Llywelyn II   12:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do agree that Pinyin system is better and should be used here. But it is not proper to condemn Wade-Giles system as "idiotic illiterate".

 * Another thing is the name of this topic, it should be "Pinyin" not "Ping Ying". :-)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.122.159.235 (talk) 16:35, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the pinyin system is better - Wade-Giles is a fine system but it is no longer the system used in teaching Chinese so ít has become a relic of an older day. It also requires you to distinguish between p and p' - although these are closer to the sound system in a phonetic way - pinyin is now widely known - I searched for Sunzi and was irritated to find it came up Sun Tzu - the redirection should go the other way. leatherbear (talk) 08:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Wades-Giles spelling is still used in Taiwan today, just look at Taipei (Taibei), Kaohsiung (Gaoxiong), Ma Ying-jeou (Ma Yingjiu) and so on. And yes, it's quite frustrating for people who are accustomed to reading Hanyu Pinyin. So does anyone want to propose moving this article to Sun Zi or Sunzi? LDS (talk) 09:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, not that it's relevant as this is English Wikipedia and not Taiwanese Wikipedia, they've introduced a variety of Pinyin in Taiwan nowadays. It hasn't yet taken over with placenames, and personal names are decided on an individual basis.87.231.185.251 (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * +1 for the move to Sun Zi. Pinyin is now in use, researches and new publication now use Pinyin, let's do the same.--Yug (talk)  14:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * =2 for the move to Sunzi. The contributors above who suggest that Sun Tzu is more commonly recognised give no evidence to support their assertions. I suspect they have none - it may once have been the case but no longer. No-one is suggesting Mao Zedong be changed back to Mao Tse-tung, for example. Pinyin has taken over.87.231.185.251 (talk) 15:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if we look to books, Sun Tzu returns 52,000 Google Books hits, Sun Zi 6,500. If you will say that many of those books are old and so privilege out-of-date spelling conventions, Amazon returns 1,141 for Sun Tzu, 191 for Sun Zi.  RJC  TalkContribs 15:58, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a minor improvement, the Amazon search above was done in all departments. If we restrict the search only to books we get 881 results for Sun Tzu and 142 result for Sun Zi, and it seems to me that a substantial portion of the results of the second search use 'Sun Tzu' in the cover. Flamarande (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The suspicion of 87.231.185.251 is thereby proven wrong and while Pinyin may be increasing in popularity it has not taken over everything yet. Let us wait and see, it took more or less 20 years to change 'Peking' to 'Beijing'. Perhaps we will have to wait another 20 years (or even longer) for 'Sun Zi'. Flamarande (talk) 16:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sunzi. But, yes, while Mr. Wade himself would have called this guy Sun-tzu, the article stays here for now. — Llywelyn II   12:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Sun Tzu is a typo due to pre-standard romanization and nothing more. it sound nothing like his actual name and serve only to confuse people. the purpose of wikipedia should not be to misled or confuse other, people have a hard enough time of figuring out chinese name without random adoption of incorrect spelling. this stupidity must end, argument that the bulk of the book are stupid therefore we should be too is irrational. 222.165.83.149 (talk) 20:10, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Team fortress 2 (game) interpretation
From the Team Fortress 2 "meet the soldier" video. It mentions Mr. Tzu. (in a quite misinformed manner)

Soldier: "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money...

[The Soldier unhooks two grenades from his belt, one in each hand.]

Soldier: ...to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat...

[The Soldier demonstrates by using the grenades, moving them in a walking motion.]

Soldier: ...and then he beat the crap out of every single one."

[The Soldier bangs the two grenades together repeatedly.]

Soldier: [Laughs to himself] "And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a 'zoo'! ...Unless it's a farm!"

Not exactly relevant, but entertaining nonetheless. 72.77.81.188 (talk) 23:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying he's a liar Maggot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.215.39.248 (talk) 01:38, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Occupation: Middle class prostitute? really?
I'm no expert on Sun Tzu's life but the occupation cited in the box seems... rather implausible. Is someone aware of something I'm not, or is this a sad attempt at stealthy wiki vandalism?Paireon (talk) 15:08, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

✅  RJC  TalkContribs 15:19, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Chinese name advice incorrect in this case
I'm guessing that the note about Sun Tzu being a Chinese name and therefore the first part being a family name was added by a Bot? At any rate I don't think it's very helpful as in this case it's not correct - the term Sun was an honorific applied to many of the great Chinese scholars of the period and translates (more-or-less) as Master.

Unless someone objects I propose removing it and replacing with a more useful statement explaining the general case that the family name comes first and the specific that here it is an honorific.Chris J M Bartlett (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe it is time for a separate name section... Sun is his Chinese name and Tzu is the honorific. — Llywelyn II   13:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Got Info!
If anybody here reads Chinese and is willing to update this wiki page, please look at this site:

It has good info, but I can't read it...xD

--Fuzzyhair2 (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Influences: The universe?
I guess it's probably similar to the "middle class prostitute" - if not, the meaning should be clarified somewhere. I searched the history, and this changed back and forth a few times. However, neither when it was introduced nor when it was removed, the revision comment showed any insight into that particular entry. 188.23.188.92 (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that listing 'The Universe' under influences is necessary or beneficial, seeing as everyone is influenced by the universe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.80.154.51 (talk) 04:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's (admittedly rather cute) vandalism. Just fix it as it comes in and alert the mods to block the guy's IP if they come by. — Llywelyn II   12:28, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:ERA
Per WP:ERA, this edit established the usage of the page as BC/AD pending any strong consensus to the contrary. The lack of consensus above means the use should kindly be maintained.

[If this post starts another discussion of the point, my vote is against adding an extra (distractingly POINTy) letter to the dates. Regardless, kindly avoid edit warring over the issue until a new consensus has been established.] — Llywelyn II   11:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Name
(a) Personally, I think this is already well-covered by the article and my addition of a Chinese infobox may have fixed the problem, but people still seem to not quite understand how this name works. It's not a western name; it's not a Chinese name, per se; and it's not a well-formatted Wade name. (That would have been Sun-tzu). How do people feel about having a Name section to walk people through this? Turns out his Old Chinese title was basically identical – *sˤun-tsəʔ (Sun-tsuh) – but his personal name changed quite a bit: from an original *sˤun *maʔ (Sun Mah) to Sun Wu and from *traŋʔ *C.qʰraŋ (Trang Krang) to Changqing. Since the infobox currently can't display that, a name section would give the info some place to park. (b) Since his personal and style names are so relatively unimportant, I'm going to move them down to the history section from the lede, where including them seems to violate the spirit of WP:UNDUE. (c) I generally deplore pronunciation guides here instead of at Wiktionary entries and anyone trying to get it seriously right is going to figure out the pinyin anyway, but shouldn't we include an English IPA to get across the basic idea that it should be Soon instead of Sun? (d) Do any of the sources disputing his existence make the point that his name (Sun Wu) is literally "Martial" / "Warrior Grandson"? Sure, it's a fine Chinese name, but it also reads pretty close to a style name/alias given what his subject matter is. — Llywelyn II   14:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Sponsored content vandalism?
Just wanted to point out to the powers-that-be that there has been vandalism on this page recently. I can't figure out how to delete that box unfortunately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.177.60.51 (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks for flagging it. Now resolved. Span (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Science of Strategy Institute worth mentioning?
The Science of Strategy Institute site evaluates several translations of Sun Tzu's Art of War. Is the site worth referencing in the links section?--2606:A000:7D44:100:6080:AD2C:D25B:8337 (talk) 00:38, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029195157/http://www.sdwenbo.com/art.asp?id=26&type=6 to http://www.sdwenbo.com/art.asp?id=26&type=6

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The Revised Art of War
Hello Sun Tzu editors,

I am new to Wiki. I have produced a revision of The Art or War, called The Revised Art of War (naturally).

For full details see this link:

A revision has been produced in Chinese, I understand, but mine is the first revision in the English language.

I have been told I may not add this information to the Sun Tzu wiki page myself. Is it acceptable to ask any other Wiki members to do it?

Cath Writer (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

New information: Soldier Magazine reviewed The Revised Art of War in August 2018. They gave it 4 stars.

See  (Page 64).

Does this justify adding the book to the Sun Tzu page under "Legacies"?

Cath Writer (talk) 10:02, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Victoryoverwar and Sonshi.com
Back on 19:27, 3 March 2020 Sonshi.com was removed "Removed 2 commercial links (Sonshi.com) that sell Sun Tzu books if you click on them. Wikipedia is not for selling your editions of The Art of War to the readers." and yet victoryoverwar which also has its own version editions of The Art of War to sale to readers is retained.

The only real differences are Sonshi.com allows an option to buy a hard copy of their FREE online version while victoryoverwar directs you to a book store AND is far more "commercial" offering "Keynotes for meetings and conferences Workshops, from half-day, full day, two day, Project-based consulting and One-on-one counseling and coaching". As far as I can see there are few to no quotes from the Art of War anywhere on that web site.

Since the IP is effectively anonymous it could have come from someone who prefers victoryoverwar's version over Sonshi.com (or worse someone who worked for victoryoverwar; we simply don't know). If a link is removed for "commercial" reasons then ALL sites that do the same thing should be removed at the same time. Otherwise it gives the appearance of someone pushing one "commercial" site over the other...especially when the one retained doesn't offer any free versions of their work.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 10:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

 * On a side note I have checked and Sonshi.com is working fine. If anyone has problems it is thanks to their ISP and not the website.  This can be confirmed via Is it down right now and/or Is Your Website Down Right Now?  I have also removed victoryoverwar for its blatant commercialization (if Sonshi is removable on those grounds then victoryoverwar is as well. We can't play favorites)--174.99.238.22 (talk) 07:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Again Sonshi.com provides a FREE online version of their translation and assess (not sales) other translations excluding their own in the interest of impartiality. The only commercial aspect of the site is a plain text print version of their online free translation, an Autographed hardcover version, and a full year program going over 351 lessons in the the Art of War.  Everything else on the site is free.  For those three things we exclude this site?!?  Get real.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 17:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * For some reason the link is going to Google's main page and Internet Archive doesn't have a back up. Thankfully archive today does have a backup.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 14:16, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sonshi.com has been bought by someone else. The archive today link is the only valid reference.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 05:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It's MUCH better to write for the general reader instead of for scholars
Or if you must use words like "historicity" then please define them the first time you use them.

I had to look this word up, and it means "actual existence". Is that what you meant by it?

Because that is very difficult to extract from the context in which is it used. 2601:200:C000:1A0:B091:A3C7:A63E:212 (talk) 04:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Focusing more on on alternatives to battle and war?
As of 2022-12-04 the third sentence reads, "It focuses much more on alternatives to battle and even to war than on war itself, such as stratagem, delay, the use of spies, the making and keeping of alliances, the uses of deceit, and a willingness to submit, at least temporarily, to more powerful foes. "

I have two problems with this:

 * 1) I cannot find "Ancient warfare edited by John Carman and Anthony Harding".  This is NOT a complete citation.
 * 2) This claim seems questionable from my cursory review of the section on "The 13 chapters" in the Wikipedia article on The Art of War.  Chapter 13 is about spies.  The first 12 seem more about tactics and strategies for warfare suitable for different situations, and does NOT seem focussed "much more on alternatives to battle", as claimed.

What should be done with this? I'm deleting this sentence. If you think it belongs, please provide a replacement with a complete citation that someone can actually find. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 17:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Might you have time, interest and ability to comment on the above reference to, which I deleted for reasons cited above? I'm asking you, because (a) you've edited this article before, (b) your User page says you "write about military history", and (c) I might be able to use that claim elsewhere if it were accurate.  For example, it should be mentioned in the Wikipedia article on The Art of War if it were accurate.
 * Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 20:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Fake Quotes
Shouldn't there be at least some reference/elaboration upon how Sun Tzu is frequently falsely quoted to troll people/as a joke? There's literally a generator available online to do this: https://suntzu.noahvdaa.me/ Socialworker2022 (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sun Tzu


text:
Simple Minds

Simple Minds are a Scottish rock band formed in Glasgow in 1977. They have released a string of hit singles, becoming best known internationally for "Don't You (Forget About Me)" (1985), which topped the Billboard Hot 100 in the United States. Other commercially successful singles include "Promised You a Miracle" (1982), "Glittering Prize" (1982), "Someone Somewhere in Summertime" (1982), "Waterfront" (1983), "Alive and Kicking" (1985), "Sanctify Yourself" (1986), "Let There Be Love" (1991), "See the Lights" (1991), and the UK number one single "Belfast Child" (1989).

Simple Minds have achieved 24 top 40 singles on the UK Singles Chart, and 23 top 40 albums on the UK Albums Chart, including five number one albums: Sparkle in the Rain (1984), Once Upon a Time (1985), Live in the City of Light (1987), Street Fighting Years (1989), and Glittering Prize 81/92 (1992). They have sold more than 60 million albums worldwide, and were the most commercially successful Scottish band of the 1980s. Simple Minds have had chart success in the United States, Australia, Germany, Spain, Italy and New Zealand. Despite various personnel changes, they continue to record and tour.

In 2014, Simple Minds were awarded the Q Inspiration Award for their contribution to the music industry and an Ivor Novello Award in 2016 for Outstanding Song Collection from the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers, and Authors (BASCA). Other notable recognitions include nominations for both the MTV Video Music Award for Best Direction and MTV Video Music Award for Best Art Direction for "Don't You (Forget About Me)" in 1985, nomination for the Brit Award for British Group in 1986 and for the American Music Award for Favorite Pop/Rock Band/Duo/Group in 1987. "Belfast Child" was nominated for the Song of the Year at the Brit Awards 1990.

Singer Jim Kerr and guitarist Charlie Burchill are the two members who have been with the band throughout its whole history. The other current band members are bassist Ged Grimes, drummer Cherisse Osei, backing singer Sarah Brown, guitarist and keyboardist Gordy Goudie and keyboardist Erik Ljunggren. Notable former members include keyboardist Mick MacNeil, bassists Derek Forbes and John Giblin and drummers Brian McGee and Mel Gaynor.

Early years (1977–1979)
Simple Minds originated from the punk band Johnny & The Self-Abusers, formed in early 1977 on Glasgow's South Side, as the brainchild of Alan Cairnduff. Cairnduff left the organisation of the band to John Milarky, suggesting that he enlist two strangers, singer and lyricist Jim Kerr and guitarist Charlie Burchill. Kerr and Burchill, who had been acquainted since age eight, roped in their school friends Brian McGee and Tony Donald to play drums and bass respectively. Milarky served as singer, guitarist and saxophonist, and recruited his friend Allan McNeill to be the band's third guitarist. Kerr doubled on keyboards, and Burchill also played violin.

On 11 April 1977, Johnny & The Self-Abusers held their first performance at the Doune Castle pub in Glasgow, following up two weeks later as the opening act for Generation X in Edinburgh. They performed concerts in Glasgow over the ensuing summer, but a split developed in the band, with Milarky and McNeill forming one faction and the other consisting of Kerr, Donald, Burchill and McGee; In November 1977, Johnny & The Self-Abusers released their only single, "Saints and Sinners", on Chiswick Records (which was dismissed as being "rank and file" in a Melody Maker review). The band split on the same day that the single was released, with Milarky and McNeill going on to form The Cuban Heels. Ditching the stage names and the overt punkiness, the remaining members continued together as Simple Minds (naming themselves after a David Bowie lyric from his song "Jean Genie", making their very first performance at Glasgow's Satellite City on 17 January 1978.

In January 1978, Simple Minds recruited Duncan Barnwell as a second guitarist (allowing for an optional two-guitar line-up while also enabling Burchill to play violin). Meanwhile, Kerr had abandoned keyboards to concentrate entirely on vocals. In March 1978, Kerr, Burchill, Donald, Barnwell and McGee were joined by the Barra-born keyboard player Mick MacNeil. The band got a residency at the Mars Bar in Glasgow and played various other venues in Scotland and rapidly established a reputation as an exciting live act (usually performing in full makeup). Tony Donald quit in April 1978 and was replaced by Duncan Barnwell's friend Derek Forbes (formerly the bass player with The Subs). In May 1978 Simple Minds recorded their first demo tape, including "Chelsea Girl" and some other tracks that would appear on their debut album.

The group were turned down by record companies, but gained a management deal with Bruce Findlay, owner of the Bruce's Records chain of record shops and the Zoom Records label. Championed by his journalist friend Brian Hogg, Findlay was persuaded to sign Simple Minds to his Zoom label which had a licensing deal with Arista Records. In November 1978, Barnwell was ousted from the band. The remaining quintet of Kerr, Burchill, MacNeil, Forbes and McGee began rehearsing the set of Kerr/Burchill-written songs which appear on their debut album.

Initial albums (1979–1980)
On 27 March 1979 the band made their first television appearance, performing the songs "Chelsea Girl" and "Life in a Day" on BBC's The Old Grey Whistle Test. The first Simple Minds album, Life in a Day, was produced by John Leckie and released by Zoom Records in April 1979. The album's title track "Life in a Day" was released as Simple Minds' first single and reached No. 62 in the UK Singles Chart, with the album reaching No. 30 in the UK Albums Chart. In April/May 1979 they made their first UK tour as supporting act for Magazine, who were a major influence on them at the time.

In June 1979 "Chelsea Girl" was released as the second single from the album, failing to reach the chart, while the band continued to tour the UK on their own. In September 1979 Simple Minds recorded their next album, Real to Real Cacophony at Rockfield Studios with producer John Leckie. The songs were mostly conceived in the studio and was a significant departure from the pop tunes of Life in a Day. The album had a darker and more experimental atmosphere, announcing some of the new wave experimentation that became the band's trademark sound over the next two albums. The band began their "Real to Real Cacophony Tour" in Germany and also made a short visit to New York in October 1979. Their performance of the songs "Premonition", "Factory" and "Changeling" at Hurrah was filmed for The Old Grey Whistle Test.

Real to Real Cacophony was released in November 1979. While the band got little marketing support from their record company Arista, who didn't liked the album, it received critical acclaim. The release was followed by their third UK tour of the year and a BBC session for John Peel in December. In January 1980 "Changeling" was released as the only single from Real to Real Cacophony, failing to make an impression on the charts. In March they supported Gary Numan on a couple of gigs, and continued their Real to Real Cacophony Tour until June 1980 with dates mainly in Germany, France and the Netherlands. In June 1980 Simple Minds entered the studio to record their next album, again with producer John Leckie at Rockfield Studios. The band again had a new approach to their music that differed from the previous album, this time aiming for a more repetitive, dance-orientated sound inspired by disco music they had heard in nightclubs while touring Europe.

Empires and Dance was released in September 1980. Many of the tracks were minimal and featured a significant use of sequencing. McNeil's keyboards and Forbes' bass became the main melodic elements in the band's sound, with Burchill's heavily processed guitar becoming more of a textural element. With this album, Kerr began to experiment with non-narrative lyrics based on observations he had made as the band travelled across Europe on tour. While a modest commercial success, Empires and Dance received enthusiastic response in the British music press Simple Minds had caught the attention of Peter Gabriel who selected them as the opening act on several dates of his European tour starting in August 1980. The tour as support act for Peter Gabriel gave the band the opportunity to play at bigger venues. Empires and Dance peaked at no.41 on the UK Albums Chart and dropped out of the chart after three weeks. The band's manager Bruce Findlay later blamed Arista for poor handling of the album and it not being more commercially successful. Initially Arista only released 7500 copies of the album. Furthermore, Arista did not release a single to promote the album. "I Travel" was not released as a single until October to promote the Empires and Dance tour. The single sold poorly and did not reach the UK chart. But the 12" version became popular in the US club scene and, based on import sales only, entered the Billboard Disco Chart at no.80 in early 1981. "I Travel" was subsequently reissued twice in the UK, but again failed to reach the singles chart.

Commercial breakthrough (1981–1983)

In early 1981, Simple Minds frustration with poor support and marketing by Arista made them threaten to split up rather than continue working with them. They were released from Arista and instead signed to Virgin Records. After the band had left the label, Arista decided to release "Celebrate" as the second single from Empires and Dance in February 1981 to promote the album, with the earlier single "Changeling" on the b-side to promote Real to Real Cacophony, but this single too sold poorly and failed to chart. The following year, Arista put out a compilation album, Celebration, featuring tracks from the three previous albums which reached No. 45 on the UK albums chart.

Following their change of record company, the band demoed new songs and embarked on a club tour in the US and Canada. In May 1981, Simple Minds' first release on Virgin, the single "The American" reached No. 59 on the UK singles chart. The band recorded their next album with producer Steve Hillage and an abundance of new material under much time pressure. At the end of the recording sessions drummer Brian McGee decided to leave the band, citing exhaustion at Simple Minds' constant touring schedule, and a desire for more time at home with family. In an interview shortly after, he also cited disappointment that he was not getting enough credit in the band. McGee joined Glasgow band Endgames, and later Propaganda. In August, "Love Song" was released and became their highest charting single to date, peaking at No. 47 on the UK singles chart and an international hit, reaching the top 20 in Australia and Sweden, and no.38 in Canada.

In September 1981, Virgin released the entirety of Simple Minds recent studio sessions on two albums: Sons and Fascination and Sister Feelings Call. The latter album was initially included as a bonus disc with the first 10,000 vinyl copies of Sons and Fascination, but it was later re-issued as an album in its own right. (For the CD release, it was paired on a single disc with Sons and Fascination –at first with two tracks deleted, but in full on later issues). The album reached No. 11 on the UK albums chart, and was subsequently placed as No. 18 on Sounds "Album of the Year"-chart. The next single "Sweat in Bullet" was a remixed version by Peter Walsh and included two songs recorded live at Hammersmith Odeon in September. During this period, the band's visual aesthetic was established, masterminded by Malcolm Garrett's graphic design company Assorted iMaGes. Characterised at first by hard, bold typography and photo-collage, Garrett's designs for the band later incorporated pop-religious iconography in clean, integrated package designs that befitted the band's idealised image as neo-romantic purveyors of European anthemic pop.

McGee's initial replacement as Simple Minds' drummer was Kenny Hyslop (ex-Skids, Slik, Zones), who was recruited to play on the first leg of the Sons and Fascination tour, which included Simple Minds first visit to Australia, touring with Icehouse. Hyslop also played on the studio recording of "Promised You a Miracle", a song originating in a riff from a tape of funk music Hyslop played on the tour bus, that would become the band's next single. But Hyslop "didn't fit in" with the band or their management and was replaced for the second leg of the Sons and Fascination tour by the Kilmarnock-born percussionist Mike Ogletree (the former drummer for Café Jacques) in early 1982. Simple Minds started working on their next album in an old farmhouse in Fife. In February 1982 the songs "Promised You a Miracle" and "King is White and in the Crowd" were premiered on a BBC session for Kid Jensen. The band then moved to Townhouse Studios for recording sessions with producer Peter Walsh. The band told Walsh they wanted the album to represent their live sound, so Walsh decided to record it as a live studio album. Unsatisfied with Ogletree's drumming style Walsh introduced them to a London-born drummer called Mel Gaynor, a 22-year-old session musician with plenty of experience from playing with funk-bands such as Beggar and Co and Light of the World, who then played drums on the majority of the record, while Ogletree played drums on three tracks.

"Promised You a Miracle" was released in April 1982 and became Simple Minds first Top 20 single in the UK, peaking at No. 13 and also reaching the Australian Top 10. The song earned the band performances on Top of the Pops and interviews in teen-orientated pop magazines. New Gold Dream (81–82–83–84) was released in September 1982. The album was a commercial breakthrough spending 53 weeks on the UK Albums Chart, peaking at No. 3 in October 1982. It generated charting singles including "Glittering Prize", which also reached the UK Top 20 and Australian Top 10. While some tracks ("Promised You a Miracle", "Colours Fly and Catherine Wheel") continued the formula perfected on Sons and Fascination, other tracks ("Someone Somewhere in Summertime", "Glittering Prize") were pure pop. Jazz keyboardist Herbie Hancock, who recorded in the studio next door, performed a synth solo on the track "Hunter and the Hunted".

The band embarked on their extensive New Gold tour in September 1982, which included dates in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Mike Ogletree played on the first leg of the tour, but left the band in November 1982 and later joined Fiction Factory. Mel Gaynor was recruited (as a full member of the band) for the remaining dates. Simple Minds' first non-Scottish member, Gaynor went on to become the band's longest-standing drummer (and member aside from mainstays Burchill and Kerr) despite thrice leaving and returning in the following decades. The band's late 1982 UK dates included a show at City Hall in Newcastle that was recorded by Virgin and later included on the 2003 Seen the Lights DVD. On these dates the band was supported by China Crisis.

The second leg of the New Gold Dream tour started in March 1983 and included dates in Europe, USA and Canada. In July they performed at festivals such as Roskilde Festival in Denmark and Rock Werchter in Belgium. Prior to the tour the band had started working on their next album. In August the new song "Waterfront" was premiered in a live concert. In September the band recorded a BBC session for David Jensen, including "Waterfront" and the newly written "The Kick Inside of Me". In October their next album was recorded with producer Steve Lillywhite at Townhouse Studios in London. In November "Waterfront" was released as a single and the band embarked on their Sparkle in the Rain Tour. The opening show at Barrowlands Ballroom in Glasgow was filmed for the "Waterfront" video. "Waterfront" became their most successful single to date; hitting No. 1 in New Zealand, No. 5 in Ireland, the Top 20 in Australia and Sweden, and No. 13 on the UK chart.

Mainstream success and political activism (1984–1988)

Sparkle in the Rain was released in February 1984. It entered the UK albums chart at number one. It was preceded by the single "Speed Your Love to Me" which reached No.20 on the singles chart. A third single from the album, "Up on the Catwalk", was subsequently released and also reached the Top 30 in the UK. Sparkle in the Rain hit the top 20 in several other countries (including Canada, where it reached No. 13). The band spent much of 1984 touring the world, including Australia, Europe, North America and Japan. In 1984, Jim Kerr married Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders (who renamed herself Christine Kerr). Simple Minds headlined a North American tour supported by China Crisis during the Canadian leg and supported the Pretenders in the US while Hynde was pregnant with Kerr's daughter. The marriage lasted until 1990. Despite the band's new-found popularity in the UK, Europe, Canada and Australia, Simple Minds remained essentially unknown in the US. The band's UK releases on Arista were not picked up by Arista USA who had 'right of first refusal' for their releases. The 1985 film The Breakfast Club broke Simple Minds into the US market, when the band achieved their only No. 1 U.S. pop hit in April 1985 with the film's opening track, "Don't You (Forget About Me)". The song was written by Keith Forsey and Steve Schiff; Forsey offered the song to Billy Idol and Bryan Ferry before Simple Minds agreed to record it. The song soon became a chart-topper in many other countries around the world.

At around this point, the camaraderie that had fuelled Simple Minds began to unravel, and over the next ten years the band's line-up underwent frequent changes. Jim Kerr subsequently recalled "We were knackered. We were desensitized. The band started to fracture. We were lads who had grown up together, we were meant to grow together, politically, spiritually and artistically. But we were getting tired with each other. There was an element of the chore creeping in. We were coasting and this whole other thing was a challenge." The first casualty was bassist Derek Forbes, who was beginning to squabble with Kerr. Forbes began failing to turn up for rehearsals, and was dismissed. Forbes remained in touch with the band (and soon reunited with another former Simple Minds bandmate, drummer Brian McGee, in Propaganda). Forbes was replaced by former Brand X bass player John Giblin (who owned the band's rehearsal space and was a session musician who had worked with Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush). Giblin made his debut with Simple Minds at Live Aid in Philadelphia, where the band performed "Don't You (Forget About Me)", a new track called "Ghost Dancing" and "Promised You a Miracle".

During 1985, Simple Minds were in the studio with former Tom Petty/Stevie Nicks producer Jimmy Iovine. In November, Once Upon a Time was released; former Chic singer Robin Clark, who performed call-and-response vocals with Kerr throughout the album (effectively becoming a second lead singer), and was heavily featured in Simple Minds music videos of the time. The record reached No. 1 in the UK and No. 10 in the US, despite the fact that their major-league breakthrough single "Don't You (Forget About Me)" was not included. Once Upon a Time went on to generate four worldwide hit singles: "Alive and Kicking", "Sanctify Yourself", "Ghost Dancing" and "All the Things She Said", the last of which featured a music video directed by Zbigniew Rybczyński that used techniques developed in music videos for bands such as Pet Shop Boys and Art of Noise. The band also toured, with both Robin Clark and percussionist Sue Hadjopoulos added to the live line-up.

Because of Simple Minds' powerful stage presence and lyrics that trafficked in Christian symbolism, the band was criticised by some in the music press as a lesser version of U2, despite the fact that both bands were now heading in different musical directions. The two groups were well-acquainted with one another, and Bono joined Simple Minds on-stage at the Barrowlands in Glasgow in 1985 for a live version of "New Gold Dream". Bono also appeared on stage at Simple Minds Croke Park concert and sang "Sun City" during the "Love Song" medley. Derek Forbes also appeared on stage at the Croke Park concert and performed on several songs during the encore. To document their worldwide Once Upon a Time Tour, Simple Minds released the double-live set Live in the City of Light in May 1987, which was recorded primarily over two nights in Paris in August 1986. By 1988, the band had built their own recording premises — the Bonnie Wee Studio — in Scotland. Following the lengthy period of touring to support Once Upon a Time, Simple Minds began new writing sessions. Initially the band began work on an instrumental project called Aurora Borealis (mostly written by Burchill and MacNeil). This project was then supplanted by an increase in the band's political activism, something which they had begun to stress in recent years (by giving all of the income from the "Ghostdancing" single to Amnesty International, and playing cover versions of Little Steven's "(Ain't Gonna Play) Sun City" on tour), inspired by Peter Gabriel with whom they had toured in the early 1980s.

Simple Minds were the first band to sign up for Mandela Day, a concert held at Wembley Stadium, London, as an expression of solidarity with the then-imprisoned Nelson Mandela. Bands involved were asked to produce a song especially for the event – Simple Minds were the only act which produced one. This was "Mandela Day", which the band played live on the day (alongside cover versions of "Sun City" with Little Steven and a cover version of Peter Gabriel's "Biko" on which Gabriel himself took on lead vocals). "Mandela Day" was released on the Ballad of the Streets EP, which reached No. 1 in the UK Singles Chart (the only time the band did so). Another EP track, "Belfast Child", was a rewrite of the Celtic folk song "She Moved Through the Fair" (which had been introduced to Kerr by John Giblin) with new lyrics written about the ongoing conflict in Northern Ireland). The single was also an expression by Simple Minds of their support for the campaign for the release of Beirut-held hostage Brian Keenan, kidnapped by the Islamic Jihad.

Street Fighting Years, Real Life and hiatus (1989–1993)
The next album Street Fighting Years (produced by Trevor Horn and Stephen Lipson) moved away from the American soul and gospel influences of Once Upon a Time in favour of soundtrack atmospherics and a new incorporation of acoustic and folk music-related ingredients. The lyrics were also more directly political, covering topics including the Poll Tax, the Soweto townships, the Berlin Wall and the stationing of nuclear submarines on the Scottish coast. The band underwent further line-up changes during the recording of Street Fighting Years. Mel Gaynor and John Giblin both contributed to the recording (and, in Giblin's case, to some of the writing) but both had left the band by the time of the album's release, by which time the band was credited as a trio of Kerr, Burchill and MacNeil. In a new development for the band, various bass guitar and drum tracks were performed by high-profile session musicians. Gaynor's departure from the band was brief (he was rehired for the following tour).

Released in 1989, the album rose to No. 1 in the UK charts and received a rare five-star review from Q magazine. It received a less positive review in Rolling Stone which criticised the band for what the reviewer considered to be political vacuity. "This Is Your Land" was chosen as the lead single for the U.S., and even with guest vocals from Lou Reed, the single failed to make a mark on the pop charts. Reunited with Mel Gaynor, Simple Minds hired Malcolm Foster (ex-Pretenders) as the new bass player and expanded the live band again by recruiting three additional touring members: Level 42 backing singer Annie McCaig, percussionist Andy Duncan and violinist Lisa Germano. Touring began in May 1989, and included the first and only time that the group headlined Wembley Stadium, where they were supported by fellow Scottish bands The Silencers, Texas and Gun. In September, the concert in the Roman amphitheatre Verona Arena in Italy was recorded for the live video Verona, released by Virgin in 1990, and later included on the Seen the Lights DVD in 2003.

At the end of the Street Fighting Years tour, Simple Minds laid plans to go to Amsterdam to begin recording a new album. Just before the end of the tour, keyboardist Michael MacNeil announced to the band that he would not be joining them as he needed a break. MacNeil played his last concert with Simple Minds in Brisbane a week later. At the time, MacNeil's departure was put down to health concerns, but he had been gradually suffering disillusionment with the band's lifestyle and touring schedule (as well as what Kerr has referred to as "a number of animated quarrels". ) At around the same time, long-term manager Bruce Findlay was dismissed and over the next few years the band gradually altered to the point where it was a shifting set of musicians around the only remaining core members, Kerr and Burchill. In December 2009, Kerr retrospectively defended the changes in an online diary entry, although he said that MacNeil's departure had been a "colossal fracture". He also paid tribute to his former bandmate and said that MacNeil had been irreplaceable. Simple Minds continued to record, hiring keyboard players as and where required. The first of these was session keyboard player Peter-John Vettese who played live with the band at the Nelson Mandela Freedom Concert and on a short German tour. He was subsequently replaced in the live band by Mark Taylor.

In 1991, Simple Minds returned with Real Life. The album's cover showed a trio of Kerr, Burchill and Gaynor and the writing credits for all songs was Kerr/Burchill. The album reached No. 2 in the UK, where it also spawned four Top 40 singles. In the US, "See the Lights" was the band's last Top 40 pop single. The band toured to support the release, playing as a basic five-piece (Kerr, Burchill, Gaynor, Foster and Taylor) and cutting down on the extended arrangements of the last few large tours. Mel Gaynor left the band in 1992 to pursue session work and other projects, and for the next two years Simple Minds were on hiatus, releasing the compilation album Glittering Prize 81/92 in 1992.

Good News from the Next World and Néapolis (1994–1999)
Simple Minds returned to activity later in 1994. By now the band was officially a duo of Kerr and Burchill (with the latter taking on keyboards in the studio, as well as guitar). Hiring Keith Forsey (the writer of "Don't You (Forget About Me)") as producer, they began to put together an album which returned to the uplifting arena rock feel of their Once Upon a Time days. With Gaynor now out of the picture, the remaining instrumentation was covered by session musicians (although Malcolm Foster was included among the bass players used for recording). Good News from the Next World was released in 1995. The album reached No. 2 in the UK and produced the Top 10 hit "She's a River" and the Top 20 single "Hypnotised". The band toured to promote Good News from the Next World, with Malcolm Foster and Mark Taylor as touring bass and keyboard players and Mark Schulman (who had played on the album) on drums. This was Foster's last work with the band, and Schulman returned to session work at the end of the tour. After being released from their contract with Virgin Records, Simple Minds made use of the skills of their original rhythm section, Derek Forbes and Brian McGee (returning after respective eleven- and fourteen-year absences). Although McGee was not involved beyond the rehearsal stage, Forbes formally rejoined Simple Minds in July 1996. The band then reunited with Mel Gaynor for a studio session in early 1997. Gaynor was reinstated as a full-time member for the European tour (which once again featured Mark Taylor on keyboards).

After the tour, album recording sessions were interrupted by Kerr and Burchill's decision to play live (without Forbes, Taylor or Gaynor) as part of the Proms tour (a series of orchestral concerts featuring a mixture of light classical and pop music). The duo played versions of "Alive And Kicking", "Belfast Child" and "Don't You (Forget About Me)" backed by a full orchestra and were billed as Simple Minds. The new album, Néapolis featured Forbes playing bass guitar on all tracks, and Gaynor on one song, "War Babies". Other drum tracks were recorded by session players Michael Niggs and Jim McDermott, with additional percussion programming by Transglobal Underground/Furniture drummer Hamilton Lee. It was the only Simple Minds album released by Chrysalis Records, who refused to release the album in the U.S., citing lack of interest. The music video for "Glitterball", the album's lead single, was the first production of any kind to film at the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain. A European tour followed between March and July 1998, undermined by problems with ill-health and contractual fiascos (including a pull-out from the Fleadh Festival to be replaced by British rock band James).

As Simple Minds' main writing team, Kerr and Burchill had continued to demo and originate material by themselves. For the latest sessions they had shared studio space with a band called Sly Silver Sly who featured Jim Kerr's brother Mark (previously the drummer with Gun) and bass guitarist Eddie Duffy, and who were working with American songwriter Kevin Hunter. While in the studio, the two writing and recording projects (including the Hunter co-writes) merged to become the sessions for the next Simple Minds album, Our Secrets Are the Same. Once again, Forbes and Gaynor found themselves out of the band: Mark Kerr became the new drummer and Eddie Duffy joined on bass guitar. The new-look Simple Minds made their début with a short set of greatest hits at the Scotland Rocks For Kosovo festival, with Mark Taylor returning on keyboards. The displaced Forbes and Gaynor, having apparently been told that the band was not appearing at the festival, formed a new band of their own to play the same concert.

Our Secrets Are the Same, Cry and Seen the Lights (1999–2005)

Having delivered Our Secrets Are the Same to Chrysalis, Simple Minds then found themselves caught up in record company politics while Chrysalis, EMI and other companies attempted to merge with each other. Originally due for release in late 1999, the album remained unreleased after the band mired themselves in lawsuits with Chrysalis. In 2000, the situation became even more complicated when Our Secrets Are the Same was leaked on the internet. Discouraged with their label's failure to resolve the problems, and with both momentum and potential album sales lost, the band once again went on hiatus. Eddie Duffy, Mark Taylor and Mark Kerr all moved on to other projects. Jim Kerr moved to Sicily and took up a part-time career as a hotelier, although both he and Burchill continued working together on various business interests and kept the idea of the band alive. In 2001, Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill began working with multi-instrumentalist Gordon Goudie (ex-Primevals) on a new Simple Minds album to be called Cry. Mark Kerr also contributed to the project (this time as an acoustic guitarist and Burchill's co-writer on several songs) while Kerr brought in various Italian musicians as collaborators, including Planet Funk and Punk Investigation. In parallel to Cry, Simple Minds also recorded an album of covers called Neon Lights, featuring Simple Minds versions of songs from artists including Patti Smith, Roxy Music and Kraftwerk. Neon Lights was the first to be completed and released (later in 2001). In the video for the Neon Lights single "Dancing Barefoot", the band consisted of Jim Kerr, Charlie Burchill, Gordon Goudie and Mark Kerr. A 2-CD compilation, The Best of Simple Minds, was released soon afterwards.

Cry was released in April 2002. Although the album did not sell in great numbers in the U.S., Simple Minds felt confident enough to mount a North American leg of their Floating World tour (named after the instrumental track which closes Cry), their first in seven years. With Goudie opting to remain studio bound (and Mark Kerr leaving the band again), Simple Minds once again recruited Mel Gaynor as tour drummer. The live band was completed by the returning Eddie Duffy on bass guitar and by new keyboard player/programmer Andy Gillespie (of SoundControl). On 28 October 2003, Capitol released Seen The Lights – A Visual History, the first-ever Simple Minds commercial (double) DVD, featuring over four hours and twenty minutes of archive footage. The first disc includes the majority of the band's promotional videos. The second disc is devoted to Verona, the band's first live home video release, which was originally released in VHS format in 1990. It was upmixed to 5.1 surround sound for the DVD, but otherwise remains the same as the original VHS copy. On 18 October 2004, Simple Minds released a five-CD compilation entitled Silver Box. This mostly comprised previously unreleased demos, radio and TV sessions and live recordings from 1979 to 1995, but also included the long-delayed Our Secrets Are the Same. In July 2005, the band embarked on the "Intimate Tour", a series of low-key European and UK gigs at smaller venues which ended in December 2005. Andy Gillespie was unable to appear at all the gigs, and Mark Taylor returned to cover for him on several occasions. From this point onwards, the two alternated as Simple Minds' live keyboard player, depending on Gillespie's schedule with his other projects.

Black & White 050505 and Graffiti Soul (2005–2009)

With the Kerr/Burchill/Duffy/Gaynor lineup, Simple Minds released Black & White 050505 (their fourteenth studio album), on 12 September 2005. The album's first single, "Home", received airplay on alternative rock radio stations in the US. It reached No. 37 in the UK and was not released in North America. The band spent 2006 touring throughout Europe, the Far East, Australia and New Zealand on the Black And White Tour (with Mark Taylor on keyboards).

2007 marked the band's 30th anniversary and saw the band embarked on a brief tour of Australia and New Zealand as guests of INXS. The band continued to release audio and video download "bundles" through their official website, featuring live music and several short documentary-style videos recorded during their 2006 tour in Edinburgh and Brussels (including the complete show on 16 February 2006 at the Ancienne Belgique, Brussels, Belgium as "Live Bundles" No. 1 to No. 5 and 6 tracks from the show on 28 August 2006 at the "T on the Fringe" music festival, Edinburgh, as "Live Bundles" No. 6 & No. 7). On 27 June 2008, Simple Minds played the 90th birthday tribute to Nelson Mandela in London's Hyde Park. The band then undertook a short tour of the UK to celebrate their 30th anniversary. During these concerts, the band performed the entire New Gold Dream (81–82–83–84) album and songs from their other albums in a two-part concert performance. Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill also played a number of concerts with Night of the Proms across Europe in spring, followed by further shows in late 2008.

In June 2008, Kerr and Burchill briefly reunited with the full original band lineup for the first time in twenty-seven years, when meetings with Derek Forbes, Mick MacNeil and Brian McGee led to a studio rehearsal date. However, the reunion rapidly foundered over disagreements regarding control of the band and equal status for all members. Reverting to the Kerr/Burchill/Duffy/Gaynor lineup, Simple Minds released a new studio album entitled Graffiti Soul on 25 May 2009. On the November/December Graffiti Soul UK tour they were supported by Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark as special guests. A new record label, W14/Universal label, had purchased the Sanctuary label in early 2009. Former Sanctuary Records A&R head John Williams (who had signed the band to Sanctuary) kept his position with the new label, and exercised the option to pick up the remaining Simple Minds albums owed as part of the previous deal.

In May 2009, Graffiti Soul's first single, "Rockets", was released as a digital download single only. On 31 May 2009, the album entered the UK Album chart at No. 10, becoming Simple Minds' first album in 14 years to enter the UK Top 10. The album also entered European Top 100 Album chart at No. 9. Interspersed with Simple Minds activity, Jim Kerr recorded and released his first solo album Lostboy! AKA Jim Kerr on 17 May 2010 under the name "Lostboy! AKA". Explaining the project name and ethos, he commented "I didn't want to start a new band. I like my band...and I didn't want a point blank Jim Kerr solo album either." A Lostboy! AKA 10-date European tour followed from 18 to 31 May 2010.

Touring (2010–2014)
The band played a mini-concert on 2 October 2010 at the Cash For Kids Ball organised by Radio Clyde at the Hilton in Glasgow, and a full-length concert on 10 December 2010 at the Festhalle in Bern. In early October 2010, a new line-up of Simple Minds - Burchill, Kerr, Gaynor, Gillespie with new bassist Ged Grimes (ex-Danny Wilson and Deacon Blue) - completed four weeks at the Sphere Recording Studios in London during which four songs were recorded and mixed for a new compilation album to be called Greatest Hits + and for the new Simple Minds studio album. The sessions were produced by Andy Wright and engineered and mixed by Gavin Goldberg. The four songs recorded were an eight-minute-long version of "In Every Heaven" (originally recorded in 1982 during the New Gold Dream sessions) and three new compositions: "Stagefright", "On The Rooftop" and "Broken Glass Park". From 10 June to 3 July 2011, Simple Minds embarked on the Greatest Hits Forest tour, playing a series of seven dates in woodland locations of England, as part of Forestry Commission Live Music.

From 16 June to 28 August 2011, the Greatest Hits + tour visited European countries: the UK, Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Ireland, Gibraltar and Serbia mainly at summer festival venues. Simple Minds played several free concerts (on 4 July 2011 in Potsdam, Germany, on 4 July 2011 in Florence, Italy for the opening of Florence's Hard Rock Cafe, on 18 August in Belgrade, Serbia before 110,000 people and on 27 August in Bad Harzburg, Germany before 25,000 people). To coincide with the 2012 5X5 Live European tour, EMI Music released on 20 February 2012 the X5 box set featuring the first five albums over six discs: Life in a Day, Real to Real Cacophony, Empires and Dance, Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call and New Gold Dream (81–82–83–84) (with Sons and Fascination and Sister Feelings Call as separate discs in a gatefold sleeve as well as bonus material on each disc, including B-sides and remixes). After a gig on 30 March 2012 at the Døgnvill Festival in Tromsø, Norway, the band embarked on 23 June 2012 in Vienna, on a 25-date tour of European summer festivals which ended on 22 September 2012 in Germersheim, Germany. In July they played at the T in the Park festival.

On 21 April Virgin Records released the band's first record ever to be released exclusively for Record Store Day 2012. The 12" single contained two remixes, "Theme For Great Cities" remixed by Moby on side A and the 2012 remix of "I Travel" remixed by John Leckie (who produced the original version of the song in 1980) on side B. The 12" was limited to 1,000 copies worldwide, of which 100 copies were sold in Sister Ray Records in London, where Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill took part in a record-signing session. EMI released on 19 November 2012 a double live album of the tour entitled 5X5 Live. Simple Minds embarked in late 2012 on an eight-date Australia and New Zealand joint tour with American band Devo and Australian band The Church starting on 29 November 2012 in Melbourne, and ending on 15 December 2012 in Auckland (the only show played in New Zealand).

On 25 March 2013 a new greatest-hits two- and three-disc collection entitled Celebrate: The Greatest Hits + was released on Virgin Records, including two new tracks, "Blood Diamonds"  "Broken Glass Park"; the three-disc version also includes "Stagefright", a track which has never been available in CD format before, and unreleased single mixes of "Jeweller to the Stars" and "Space". The North American version of the album contains only one disc. It was followed by a 30-date Greatest Hits + UK tour, which began with a concert in Dublin on 25 March and ended in Ipswich on 4 May 2013.

In October 2013 they continued the Greatest Hits + tour in Brazil, United States and Canada, followed by concerts in South Africa, Europe and the UK in November, including four arena shows in Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham and London, with guests Ultravox at all four concerts.

Big Music and Acoustic (2014–2017)
In November 2014 Simple Minds released their first studio album in five years entitled Big Music, which was followed by a Winter/Spring 2015 UK and European tour (from February to May 2015). On 22 October 2014, Simple Minds were presented the Q Inspiration to Music award by Manic Street Preachers frontman James Dean Bradfield and saw the first public outing of new member Catherine AD as part of the lineup. On 2 November 2014, Simple Minds introduced Big Music with a special acoustic session for Radio Clyde's The Billy Sloan Collection. Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill co-hosted the show, choosing some of their favourite records – including Jet Boy by The New York Dolls, The Velvet Underground's Sweet Jane and The Model by Kraftwerk – and playing acoustic versions of songs from Big Music, including "Honest Town" and "Let The Day Begin" and David Bowie cover "The Man Who Sold the World".

In December 2014, Simple Minds recorded an acoustic session at Absolute Radio including live unplugged performances of "Honest Town", "Alive & Kicking", "Let The Day Begin", "Don't You (Forget about Me)" and David Bowie cover "The Man Who Sold the World". The band continued to tour throughout 2015. On 14 November 2015, the band self-released a 29-track double-CD live album entitled Live – Big Music Tour 2015. It was recorded during the 2015 Big Music live tour and contained a cross-section of the Simple Minds back catalogue. On 7 April 2016, Simple Minds performed their first unplugged gig at the Zermatt Unplugged Festival in Zermatt, Switzerland, followed by a second unplugged show in Zürich on 29 October 2016, also at the Zermatt Unplugged Festival. This was the first concert to feature a secondary acoustic live-and-recording line-up of Simple Minds, with Jim Kerr and Sarah Brown on vocals, Burchill on acoustic guitar and accordion, Ged Grimes on bass, Gordy Goudie returning on acoustic guitar and harmonica and new recruit Cherisse Osei on percussion. In May 2016, they were given an Ivor Novello award where Kerr noted that: "we just wanted to be in a great band and take it round the world. We’re very fortunate because we get recognition".

In October 2016, the band embarked on a promotional tour of the acoustic material, including a live concert on 10 November 2016 at the Hackney Empire, London that was broadcast on BBC Radio 2. Simple Minds released Acoustic which was recorded with the new line-up during Summer 2016 and which featured acoustic re-recordings of songs spanning their career. On the lead single, 1982's "Promised You A Miracle", the band were joined by fellow Scot KT Tunstall. The two-disc vinyl version of the album was released on 25 November 2016, including three extra tracks: "Stand By Love", "Speed Your Love To Me" and "Light Travels". In Spring 2017 they embarked on a two-month (47-date) Acoustic Live '17 UK & European tour.

On 16 November 2016, Simple Minds were given the Forth Best Performance Award at the Radio Forth awards ceremony in Edinburgh.

Walk Between Worlds and line-up changes (2017–2019)
Since September 2014, Simple Minds had been working on new material with the electric Kerr/Burchill/Grimes/Gaynor line-up (minus Andy Gillespie), including the songs "Fireball" and "A Silent Kiss".

On 15 November 2017, the new album title and track listing leaked on Amazon UK. Entitled Walk Between Worlds, the album features eight tracks while the Deluxe edition includes three bonus tracks (one live and two studio tracks). On 20 November 2017, a 20-second promo video was released on the band's Facebook page, promoting the album. The video featured a snippet of "Magic", the lead single, as performed by the six-person Acoustic line-up (now including Catherine AD). Produced by Simple Minds, Wright and Goldberg, Walk Between Worlds was released on 2 February 2018 via BMG and entered at No. 4 - their highest UK album chart position in over 23 years - and No. 2 on the Scottish albums charts, the album's highest chart position in all.

In Spring and Summer 2018, the band extensively toured Europe as part of the Walk Between Worlds tour, promoting the new album. Having performed on three tracks on the album, Cherisse Osei now became the band's full-time drummer, replacing Mel Gaynor; Catherine AD also joined the live band on additional guitar, vocals and keyboards. The band notably performed Walk Between Worlds in its entirety during the eight Spring concerts that occurred from 13 February at the Barrowland Ballroom, Glasgow, UK to 22 February 2018 in Berlin, Germany. After a unique show in Mexico City on 20 September 2018, the band extensively toured North America (now minus Catherine AD) from 24 September in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania up to 11 November 2018 in Orlando, Florida as part of the Walk Between Worlds tour.

Live in the City of Angels (2019–2020)
In 2019, Simple Minds released Live in the City of Angels, a snapshot from the band's 2018 North American tour, their biggest ever to date. The live album was made available on multiple formats; the standard CD and vinyl versions feature 25 songs, mostly recorded on 24 October 2018 at the Orpheum Theatre, whereas the Deluxe CD and digital formats contain an additional 15 tracks recorded during sound checks and rehearsals, yielding a 40-song collection to mark the band's 40-year career.

In 2019, Simple Minds also released a new compilation album entitled 40: The Best Of 1979-2019, a retrospective of the band's 40-year long recording career. It includes as a new track the band's cover of "For One Night Only" by King Creosote.

Direction of the Heart (2020–present)

The first Europe & UK (Winter–Spring) leg of the 40 Years Of Hits world tour 2020 kicked off on 28 February 2020 in Stavanger, Norway but was interrupted with the cancellation of the show due to take place on 11 March 2020 in Herning, Denmark and the cancellation of the rest of the tour due to the coronavirus pandemic. The tour was rescheduled to 2022 with over 80 dates across more than 20 countries in spring/summer 2022. On 17 January 2022, Simple Minds released the single "Act of Love" to mark the anniversary of the band's first performance on 17 January 1978 at Glasgow's Satellite City. In a statement from the band, the track had ended up shelved in the process of recording Simple Minds' debut album, though it had a lasting life during various live performances. Kerr and other band members still enjoyed the demo recording so much that they vowed to officially release an alternate version eventually.

On 21 October 2022 the band released their studio album Direction of the Heart via BMG. The very same day, they released the lead single "Vision Thing" for free. COVID-19 quarantine restrictions prevented Jim Kerr and Charlie Burchill, who both resided in Sicily, from traveling to the UK, so the new album had been recorded in Hamburg, with most tracks written, created and demoed in Sicily. On 9 July 2022, Simple Minds released a lyric video for "Vision Thing" on YouTube. A fourth single from the album, "Solstice Kiss", released in October 2023, became a hit in the UK, reaching No. 2 on the UK Vinyl Singles Chart and entering the Top 40 on the UK Singles Chart for one week at No. 31. Former member John Giblin died on 14 May 2023.

On 27 October 2023, Simple Minds released the live album New Gold Dream – Live From Paisley Abbey, a recording of the one-off performance of their 1982 album New Gold Dream (81–82–83–84) for Sky TV's Greatest Albums Live series, held at Paisley Abbey. On 29 December 2023, Charlie Burchill announced that Erik Ljunggren would be joining the group on keyboards for the band's 2024 tour.

Discography

 * Life in a Day (1979)
 * Real to Real Cacophony (1979)
 * Empires and Dance (1980)
 * Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call (1981)
 * New Gold Dream (81-82-83-84) (1982)
 * Sparkle in the Rain (1984)
 * Once Upon a Time (1985)
 * Street Fighting Years (1989)
 * Real Life (1991)
 * Good News from the Next World (1995)
 * Néapolis (1998)
 * Our Secrets Are the Same (1999/2004)
 * Neon Lights (2001)
 * Cry (2002)
 * Black & White 050505 (2005)
 * Graffiti Soul (2009)
 * Big Music (2014)
 * Acoustic (2016)
 * Walk Between Worlds (2018)
 * Direction of the Heart (2022)

Selected videography
The release dates are the original ones and the formats mentioned are the most recent versions officially available (not necessarily the original release formats).

 * 1990: Verona (VHS; May 1990; Virgin Music Video VVD 610) (in 2003, this video was remixed in 5:1 surround sound and released as part of the Seen The Lights – A Visual History double DVD set)
 * 1992: Glittering Prize 81/92 (VHS; October 1992; Virgin Music Video VVD 1103)
 * 2003: Seen The Lights – A Visual History (DVD; release dates: 28 October 2003 in some parts of Europe, 1 November 2003 in Russia, 3 November 2003 in UK and some other parts of Europe, 18 November 2003 in Canada; Virgin SMDVD 1) (this is the first-ever Simple Minds commercial (double) DVD, featuring over four hours and twenty minutes of archived footage; the first disc includes the majority of the band's promotional videos; the second disc is devoted to Verona, the band's first video originally released in 1990 in VHS format, up-mixed here to 5.1 surround sound)
 * 2014: Celebrate – Live at the SSE Hydro Glasgow (limited edition Deluxe DVD book set; release date: June 2014; including four discs: one 21-track DVD of the entire concert filmed and recorded on 27 November 2013 at the SSE Hydro, Glasgow, UK; one DVD of exclusive interview footage and photo gallery; two fully mixed audio CDs of the entire concert + a bound book featuring specially-written notes and exclusive live photos from the Celebrate tour + photographic print individually autographed by the band)

title: Simple Minds