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Johnny Marr

John Martin Marr (born John Martin Maher; 31 October 1963) is a musician, songwriter and singer. He first achieved fame as the guitarist and co-songwriter of the Smiths, who were active from 1982 to 1987. He has since performed with numerous other bands and embarked on a solo career.

Born and raised in Manchester, England, Marr formed his first band at the age of 13. He was part of several bands with Andy Rourke before forming the Smiths with Morrissey in 1982. The Smiths attained commercial success and were critically acclaimed, with Marr's jangle pop guitar style becoming a distinctive part of the band's sound, but separated in 1987 due to personal differences between Marr and Morrissey. Since then, Marr has been a member of the Pretenders, the The, Electronic, Modest Mouse, and the Cribs, and he has become a prolific session musician, working with names such as Kirsty MacColl, Pet Shop Boys, Talking Heads, Bryan Ferry and Hans Zimmer.

Having released an album titled Boomslang in 2003 under the name Johnny Marr and the Healers, Marr released his first solo album, The Messenger, in 2013. His second solo album, Playland, was released in 2014, followed by a third, Call the Comet, in 2018. Marr's autobiography, Set the Boy Free, was published in 2016.

In 2010, Marr was voted the fourth-best guitarist of the last 30 years in a poll conducted by the BBC. Phil Alexander, editor-in-chief of Mojo, described him as "arguably Britain's last great guitar stylist". In 2013, NME honoured Marr with its "Godlike Genius" award: "Not content with rewriting the history of music with one of the world's greatest-ever bands, the Smiths, he's continued to push boundaries and evolve throughout his career, working with some of the best and most exciting artists on the planet."

Early life
Marr was born on 31 October 1963 in Saint Mary's Hospital in Manchester, son of John Joseph Maher and Frances Patricia Doyle, Irish emigrants to England from County Kildare. The family lived in Ardwick Green and moved to Wythenshawe in 1972. Marr attended St Aloysius Primary School in Ardwick before moving to Sacred Heart Primary School. From 1975, he attended St Augustine's Catholic Grammar School, which in 1977 merged with other schools to form St John Plessington High School. Marr had aspirations to be a professional football player. He was approached by Nottingham Forest and had trials with Manchester City's youth team.

Marr's said his family's move to Wythenshawe was "like we'd moved to Beverly Hills", and that the move led to him meeting "a bunch of guitar players" which "changed his life". The Cult guitarist Billy Duffy was in a high school band that practised across the street from Marr's new house, and Marr would hang out listening to them rehearsing. He learned to play the guitar with LP vinyl records and a guitar chords dictionary without a teacher. Marr formed his first band, the Paris Valentinos, at the age of 13, with Andy Rourke (who had gone to the same high school as Duffy) and Kevin Williams (later an actor, known as Kevin Kennedy), performing for the first time at a Jubilee party in Benchill in June 1977, playing Rolling Stones and Thin Lizzy covers.

In 1979, he played a single gig at Wythenshawe Forum with a band called Sister Ray and re-united with Rourke in a band called White Dice. White Dice entered a demo-tape competition organised by NME and won an audition for F-Beat Records, which they attended in April 1980 but were not signed. Around the age of 14, he began spelling his name "Marr" to simplify the pronunciation for those who had difficulty with his birth name "Maher", and to avoid confusion with Buzzcocks drummer John Maher.

In October 1980, Marr enrolled at Wythenshawe College, and was President of the school's Student Union. White Dice dissolved in 1981. Marr and Rourke then formed a funk band, Freak Party, with Simon Wolstencroft on drums. Around this time, Marr first met Matt Johnson, with whom he later collaborated.

The Smiths
By early 1982, Freak Party had fizzled out, being unable to find a singer. Marr approached Rob Allman, singer in White Dice, who suggested Steven Morrissey, a singer with the short-lived punk band the Nosebleeds. Marr approached a mutual friend asking to be introduced and they visited Morrissey at his house in Kings Road, Stretford, in May.

Marr's jangly Rickenbacker and Fender Telecaster guitar playing became synonymous with the Smiths' sound. Marr's friend Andy Rourke joined as bass player and Mike Joyce was recruited as drummer. Signing to indie label Rough Trade Records, they released their first single, "Hand in Glove", on 13 May 1983. By February 1984, the Smiths' fanbase was sufficiently large to launch the band's long-awaited debut album to number two in the UK chart. Early in 1985, the band released their second album, Meat Is Murder. It was more strident and political than its predecessor, and it was the band's only album (barring compilations) to reach number one in the UK charts. During 1985 the band completed lengthy tours of the UK and the US while recording the next studio record, The Queen Is Dead.

In 1989 Spin magazine rated The Queen is Dead as number one of "The Greatest Albums Ever Made". Spin was not alone in this designation—numerous periodicals rank the Smiths and their albums, especially The Queen is Dead, high on their best ever lists. NME, for example, has dubbed the Smiths the most important rock band of all time. A legal dispute with Rough Trade had delayed the album by almost seven months (it had been completed in November 1985), and Marr was beginning to feel the stress of the band's exhausting touring and recording schedule. He later told NME, "'Worse for wear' wasn't the half of it: I was extremely ill. By the time the tour actually finished it was all getting a little bit... dangerous. I was just drinking more than I could handle." Meanwhile, Rourke was fired from the band in early 1986 due to his use of heroin, although he was reinstated in short order. Despite their continued success, personal differences within the band—including the increasingly strained relationship between Morrissey and Marr—saw them on the verge of splitting.

In July 1987, Marr left the group, and auditions to find a replacement for him proved fruitless. By the time Strangeways, Here We Come (named after Strangeways Prison, Manchester) was released in September, the band had split up. The breakdown in the relationship has been primarily attributed to Morrissey's becoming annoyed by Marr's work with other artists and Marr's growing frustration with Morrissey's musical inflexibility. Referring to the songs recorded in the band's last session together (B-sides for the "Girlfriend in a Coma" single, which preceded the album's release), Marr said "I wrote 'I Keep Mine Hidden', but 'Work Is a Four-Letter Word' I hated. That was the last straw, really. I didn't form a group to perform Cilla Black songs." In 1989, in an interview with young fan Tim Samuels (later a BBC journalist), Morrissey claimed the lack of a managerial figure and business problems were to blame for the band's eventual split. In a 2016 interview, Marr agreed with this.

In 1996, Smiths' drummer Mike Joyce took Morrissey and Marr to court, claiming that he had not received his fair share of recording and performance royalties. Morrissey and Marr had claimed most of the Smiths' recording and performance royalties and allowed ten per cent each to Joyce and Rourke. Composition royalties were not an issue, as Rourke and Joyce had never been credited as composers for the band. Morrissey and Marr claimed that the other two members of the band had always agreed to that split of the royalties, but the court found in favour of Joyce and ordered that he be paid over £1 million in back pay and receive 25% thenceforth.

Marr and Morrissey have repeatedly stated they will not reunite the band. In 2005, VH1 attempted to get the band back together on its Bands Reunited show but abandoned its attempt after the show's host, Aamer Haleem, failed to corner Morrissey before a show. In December 2005 it was announced that Johnny Marr and the Healers would play at Manchester v Cancer, a benefit show for cancer research being organised by Andy Rourke and his production company, Great Northern Productions. Rumours suggested that a Smiths reunion would occur at this concert but were dispelled by Marr on his website.

In an October 2007 interview on BBC Radio Five Live, Marr hinted at a potential reformation in the future, saying that "stranger things have happened so, you know, who knows?" Marr went on to say that "It's no biggy. Maybe we will in 18 or 32 years' time when we all need to for whatever reasons, but right now Morrissey is doing his thing and I'm doing mine, so that's the answer really." This was the first indication of a possible Smiths reunion from Marr, who previously had said that reforming the band would be a bad idea. In 2008 Marr and Morrissey met and discussed the possibility of a reunion, but after initial enthusiasm from both parties, neither pursued the idea.

Marr's guitar playing "was a huge building block" for more Manchester bands that followed the Smiths. The Stone Roses guitarist John Squire has stated that Marr was a major influence. Oasis lead guitarist Noel Gallagher credited the Smiths as an influence, especially Marr, whom he described as a "fucking wizard", also stating that "he's unique, you can't play what he plays."

The Pretenders, The The, Electronic (1987–1999)
In August 1987, he was very briefly an official member of the Pretenders. In late 1987, he toured with the band and appeared on the single "Windows of the World" b/w "1969". He then left the Pretenders, and recorded and toured with The The from 1988 to 1994, recording two albums with the group. He simultaneously formed Electronic with New Order's Bernard Sumner. Electronic were intermittently active throughout the 1990s, releasing their final album in 1999.

Session work (1987–2002)
In 1992 Marr and Billy Duffy recorded a cover version of Ennio Morricone's The Good, the Bad and the Ugly for the NME compilation album Ruby Trax.

He has also worked as a session musician and writing collaborator for artists including Pet Shop Boys, Bryan Ferry, Billy Bragg, Kirsty MacColl, Black Grape, Jane Birkin, Talking Heads, and Beck. Marr played guitar on four songs on Talking Heads' final album Naked, including the single "(Nothing But) Flowers", and he prominently appears in that song's music video. Marr played guitar on several Pet Shop Boys songs; he continues to have guest appearances on their albums, with his most significant contribution on Release (2002). The only remix that Marr has ever done was for Pet Shop Boys—it was a mix of his favourite track from their 1987 album, Actually, called "I Want to Wake Up", and was released as the b-side to 1993's "Can You Forgive Her?" He later worked as a guest musician on the Oasis album Heathen Chemistry.

Johnny Marr and the Healers (2000–present)
In 2000, Marr recruited drummer Zak Starkey (son of Ringo Starr), Cavewaves guitarist Lee Spencer and former Kula Shaker bassist Alonza Bevan for his new project, 'Johnny Marr and the Healers'. The band had taken two years to come together as Marr had wanted members to be chosen "by chemistry". Their debut album Boomslang was released in 2003, with all lyrics and lead vocals by Marr. A second album was originally scheduled for release in April 2005, and a short tour was expected soon after, but Marr has since stated that the band is on the "side burner" for the time being. Their most recent release was a free downloadable track called "Free Christmas" in December 2011.

7 Worlds Collide (2001–2009)
Marr performed two Smiths songs and music by others with a supergroup called 7 Worlds Collide consisting of members from Pearl Jam, Radiohead, Split Enz and others, assembled by Neil Finn of Split Enz and Crowded House in 2001. A second set of concerts took place in December 2008/January 2009, and an album of new studio material titled The Sun Came Out was released in August 2009 to raise money for Oxfam.

Modest Mouse (2006–2009)
In addition to his work as a recording artist, Marr has worked as a record producer. In 2006, he began work with Modest Mouse's Isaac Brock on songs that eventually were featured on the band's 2007 release, We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank. The band subsequently announced that Marr was a fully fledged member, and the reformed line-up toured extensively throughout 2006–07.

The new album reached number one on the American Billboard charts in late March 2007. For Marr, this was the first time he had had a number one record in the US. The highest chart position before that was with Electronic, who made the Top 40 in the singles chart with "Getting Away With It".

While touring in Los Angeles with Modest Mouse, Marr spent a day in John Frusciante's home studio and contributed to Frusciante's album The Empyrean. He recorded several guitar tracks on songs "Enough of Me" and "Central".

The Cribs (2008–2011)
Marr joined the Cribs in 2008, after meeting Gary Jarman when they were both in Portland, Oregon. In 2009 they recorded the album Ignore the Ignorant, which was released on 7 September that year and peaked at No. 8 on the UK charts. Marr has said the album is "as good as anything I've done".

In April 2011 it was confirmed that Marr would no longer be part of the band. Marr, who had been understood to officially leave the band in January, released a statement in which he affirmed that he would be working on solo material "over the next year or so."

Marr returned to play with the Cribs during the second of two special Christmas shows at Leeds Academy on 19 December 2013.

Further session work and solo albums (2011–present)
In the late 2007, Marr's daughter Sonny performed backing vocals on the track "Even a Child" on Crowded House's album Time on Earth, on which her father Marr played guitars. He played a large role in making the score for the 2010 science-fiction/drama film Inception, which was written and directed by Christopher Nolan. Using a 12-string-guitar, he produced repetitive, simple melancholic tones that became a character theme for the protagonist, played by Leonardo DiCaprio. "I kept coming up with this phrase 'churned-up,'" Marr said, "You've got this character who all the way through the film has this underlying turmoil." Longtime Nolan collaborator, composer Hans Zimmer, penned the soundtrack. Marr has been working since 2007 with Fender to develop and design his own guitar. American Songwriter wrote that "Fender had to modify their manufacturing process due to some of Marr's changes, but it will still sell for around the same price as other American-made Fenders."

On 25 February 2013, Marr released his début solo album, The Messenger, in the UK through Warner Bros. and on 26 February in the US through Sire. The album was preceded by the single "Upstarts", released in the UK on 18 February 2013. Marr recorded music for the film The Amazing Spider-Man 2 with Hans Zimmer, Pharrell Williams, Michael Einziger and David A. Stewart.

His second solo album, entitled Playland, was released on 6 October 2014. He also announced a worldwide tour around the release of the "Playland" album that commenced in the UK on 13 October 2014. The album's lead single was "Easy Money". In October 2014, Marr appeared as a guest musician for Hans Zimmer at his two concerts, Hans Zimmer: Revealed, at London's Hammersmith Apollo. In December 2014, Marr announced the cancellation of the remainder of his US tour, in support of Playland, due to a close family illness. In January 2016, Marr announced new and rescheduled dates as part of his West Coast 'California Jam' tour, which took place in the US throughout February and March 2016.

Marr features on "Ballad of the Mighty I", the second single from Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds' Chasing Yesterday, playing lead guitar, and joined the band for this song at a concert in Manchester. Marr contributed the track "My Monster" for the Blondie album Pollinator, released on 5 May 2017. On 12 March 2018 Marr announced his third solo album, Call the Comet.

Marr performed a set on The Other Stage at the 2019 Glastonbury Festival on 29 June, and later joined The Killers during their headline set on the Pyramid Stage to play guitar on "This Charming Man" and "Mr. Brightside" as part of the band's encore.

As Hans Zimmer composed for the James Bond film No Time to Die, Marr was brought in to perform in the score. He also played guitar in the theme song performed by Billie Eilish, and was present during the track's live debut at the 2020 Brit Awards. In August 2021, Marr signed a new worldwide album deal with BMG and on 31 August he debuted a new single titled "Spirit Power & Soul" on his social media platforms, a song taken from his EP, Fever Dreams Pt 1, that was released on 15 October 2021. His fourth solo album, Fever Dreams Pts 1-4, which is also his first double LP, was released on 25 February 2022. Marr would join the Killers for their 2022 tour to promote the 2020 album Imploding the Mirage, providing an opening act for the American tour dates and also joining the Killers for a Smiths cover and "Mr. Brightside" in the encore. The Los Angeles tour date saw the Killers and Marr also performing on stage with former Fleetwood Mac guitarist Lindsey Buckingham.

In November 2023, the album Spirit Power: The Best Of Johnny Marr was released, personally curated by Marr and encompassing music from across his four solo albums plus two new studio recordings. An accompanying UK tour was also announced, with gigs played in Newcastle, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Wolverhampton, Cardiff, Bristol, London, Brighton and Nottingham during April 2024.

Style and influences
Marr's jangly guitar-playing was influenced by Neil Young's work with Crazy Horse, George Harrison (with the Beatles) and James Honeyman-Scott of the Pretenders. During his time in the Smiths, Marr often tuned his guitar up a full step to F♯ to accommodate Morrissey's vocal range, and also used open tunings. He is known for creating arpeggio melodies and (sometimes) unusual chord progressions, and makes wide use of open strings while chording to create chiming. Citing producer Phil Spector as an influence, Marr said, "I like the idea of records, even those with plenty of space, that sound 'symphonic'. I like the idea of all the players merging into one atmosphere". Marr's other favourite guitarists are James Williamson of the Stooges, Rory Gallagher, Pete Townshend of the Who, Nile Rodgers, Jimi Hendrix, John McGeoch of Magazine and Siouxsie and the Banshees, and John McLaughlin, who he called "the greatest guitar player that's ever lived". When forming the Smiths, the Velvet Underground was a key influence, along with Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones. Marc Bolan of T. Rex also had a strong impact on him because of the groove and the sound that put the listener in a daze. Talking about his instrument, he explained : "I try to think about the guitar along the spectrum of James Williamson, who was in the Stooges during the Raw Power era, on the one hand to John McLaughlin and his solo record, My Goal's Beyond. I like all the spectrum in between, and that might be – and is – Richard Lloyd of Television, John McGeoch from Siouxsie and the Banshees, Nile Rodgers. To me these people are magicians and artists."

When performing with the Smiths, he wanted to play music which was pop. "100% of my focus was on providing interesting guitar hooks and putting some kind of space-age twist on the guitarist's role. The pop guitarist crossed with the mad professor. That's how I thought of myself." In a 2007 interview for the BBC, Marr said that with the Smiths his goal was to "pare down" his style and avoid rock guitar clichés. Marr forbade himself from using power chords, distortion, lengthy solos, or "big rock chord changes", instead relying on sophisticated arpeggios to create his signature chiming guitar work for the band.

When Marr started to sing as a solo artist in 2012, he explained his decision saying : "[The frontpersons] I related to were Peter Perrett, Colin Newman, Pete Shelley, Siouxsie Sioux. They were singing from the mind and had integrity." He also added : "I'm absolutely not interested in being the frontman in a band that bares my soul or feelings in song. Siouxsie Sioux, or Ray Davies, or Howard Devoto don't sing from some weird, shlocky, sentimental place. What's wrong with singing from the brain?". He also expressed admiration for Bert Jansch, Yeah Yeah Yeahs' Nick Zinner, and Franz Ferdinand's guitarists Alex Kapranos and Nick McCarthy.

Guitars
Marr has used a variety of guitars throughout his career, but these are his most notable instruments:
 * Fender Jaguar – He has played a Jaguar since 2005, and in 2012 Fender issued the Johnny Marr Signature Fender Jaguar, which has several modifications, including specially voiced Johnny Marr custom pickups by Bare Knuckle Pickups and a four position blade switch.
 * Rickenbacker 330 – This guitar is most often associated with Marr due to its 'jangly' sound for which he is known. He played it with the Smiths and it can also be seen in the promotional video for "Vivid" by Electronic. He also owns a "360" 12-string model that belonged to Pete Townshend. Marr acknowledged that many of the songs that were thought to have been recorded on this Rickenbacker were, in fact, recorded on a Fender Telecaster.
 * Fender Stratocaster - Marr used a 1962 Fender Stratocaster to record "There Is a Light That Never Goes Out" and for much of the Smiths' 1986 UK and US tours. He also used a 1963 Fender Stratocaster to record "The Boy with a Thorn in his Side" which was one of his main guitars on the 1986 tour. Marr also owned a sunburst 1965 Fender Stratocaster, serial number L68296, that eventually wound up in the possession of Oasis guitarist Noel Gallagher.
 * Fender Telecaster - while Marr was associated with the Rickenbacker 330, he admitted that many of the "jangly" songs that were recorded by the Smiths were in fact done with John Porter's 1954 Telecaster, including "This Charming Man".
 * Gibson Les Paul – Marr owns several, including a rare 1960 model. His cardinal red Les Paul was acquired in 1984 and was used extensively with the Smiths and with The The, appearing in the video for "Dogs of Lust". He has now added a Bigsby tremolo system to this guitar as well as Seymour Duncan pick-ups with coil taps. He gave his 1960 model (also previously owned by Pete Townshend) to Noel Gallagher during Oasis's formative years. Gallagher broke the guitar's neck hitting a fan who jumped on stage. Marr then gave Gallagher yet another vintage (black) Gibson Les Paul (used on much of The Queen is Dead) so Oasis could carry on touring.
 * Gibson ES-355 – His cherry red model was used heavily with the Smiths during 1984 and inspired Suede guitarist Bernard Butler and Noel Gallagher to buy one for themselves. It was bought for him by Seymour Stein in New York as an incentive for the Smiths to sign to his label, Sire Records. He also owns a black model, which appears in the videos for "Forbidden City" and "For You" by Electronic, and a sunburst, 12-string model that was used heavily on the Smiths' final LP, Strangeways, Here We Come. This 12 string model was later given to Bernard Butler.
 * Gibson SG – Marr used a cherry red SG as his main guitar when playing with the Healers. He also owns a unique, blonde SG.
 * Fender Jazzmaster – Marr used several Jazzmasters while he was a member of Modest Mouse.

In September 2023, a book titled 'Marr's Guitars' was published, showcasing the most significant of Marr's collection of electric and acoustic guitars.

Amplifiers and effects
Marr has used Fender Amplifiers almost exclusively throughout his career. During his time with the Smiths, he used a Twin Reverb, a Deluxe Reverb and a Bassman amongst others. He also used a Fender Champ with The The and the Cribs. When playing with the Cribs, he used a Super Reverb. Marr's love of the Fender sound continues to this day with his Deluxe Reverb. He has used other amps, including the Roland JC-120, Vox AC30, Mesa Boogie and Marshall cabinets. Marr typically uses Boss effects units notably that company's CE-2 chorus effect, the TW-1 touch wah wah pedal and the OD-2 overdrive pedal.

Honours, honorary doctorate
In 2007 Marr was appointed as a visiting professor in music at the University of Salford, where he delivered an inaugural lecture (on 4 November 2008), and a series of workshops and masterclasses to students on the BA (Hons) Popular Music and Recording programme.

On 19 July 2012, he received an honorary doctorate from the University of Salford for "outstanding achievements" and "changing the face of British guitar music".

On 3 November 2018, Marr unveiled a plaque in his parents' hometown of Athy in County Kildare, Ireland. This was part of the Made of Athy project.

On 19 January 2021, Marr received the Boss Lifetime Achievement Award as part of NAMM music industry trade show.

In popular culture
Marr was the titular subject of the 2007 single "Johnny Marr" by the Canadian singer Carole Pope, formerly of the band Rough Trade. Pope described her inspiration and choice of Marr thus: "I was actually getting nostalgic, which I never really do, about living on a certain street in Toronto in the '80s. The Smiths were the soundtrack of that time. I love [...] Morrissey, but I know he's trouble."

Marr is the subject of "Johnny Marr Is Dead" by The Brian Jonestown Massacre; however, he is not mentioned in the lyrics. He is also the subject of Clear's 2003 single satirising the music industry "Johnny Marr Was a Mistake".

Marr is portrayed by Laurie Kynaston in the 2017 film England Is Mine.

Marr is also mentioned in the 1988 single "John Kettley Is a Weatherman" by British band A Tribe of Toffs.

Personal life
Marr and his wife Angie have been together since 1979, before the Smiths formed. They have two children, Sonny and Nile Marr. Nile is also a musician, and was frontman of the band Man Made before going solo. After residing in Portland, Oregon, for more than five years, the family returned to Britain for Marr to record his solo album in Manchester.

Marr gave up eating meat around 1985 in solidarity with Morrissey and Angie. He stated: "It's not a good idea to have a number one album called Meat Is Murder and be seen eating a bacon sarnie." After meeting American rap group Naughty by Nature, he was inspired by their philosophy of strength through health, and soon after quit drinking and smoking, and converted to veganism. Marr is a keen runner, and completed the 2010 New York Marathon in a time of 3:54:18. Marr has been a supporter of Manchester City F.C. since 1972, and has been seen attending games. Marr is a patron of the Manchester Modernist Society.

Marr has said that he does not consider himself English or British, saying, "Anyone who looks back on the past 30 years of my career will know that I've always described myself as Mancunian Irish. I was the first of my family to be born in England. I've never described myself as British or English. I'm either Mancunian or Mancunian Irish - that is a culture and a nationality that is a thing unto itself."

Albums (as band member)
The Smiths

 * The Smiths (1984)
 * Meat Is Murder (1985)
 * The Queen Is Dead (1986)
 * Strangeways, Here We Come (1987)

The Pretenders

The The

 * Mind Bomb (1989)
 * Dusk (1992)

Electronic

 * Electronic (1991)
 * Raise the Pressure (1996)
 * Twisted Tenderness (1999)

7 Worlds Collide

 * 7 Worlds Collide (2001)
 * The Sun Came Out (2009)

Johnny Marr and the Healers
 * Boomslang (2003)

Modest Mouse

 * We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank (2007)
 * No One's First and You're Next (2009)

The Cribs

 * Ignore the Ignorant (2009)

Albums (as a guest musician)
In the 1980s and 1990s, Marr played on three Billy Bragg recordings. In the late 1980s, he performed on albums by Bryan Ferry and Talking Heads. In the 1990s and 2000s, he performed on three Pet Shop Boys albums, and also plays guitar and harmonica on their Xenomania-produced album, Yes, released in 2009. In the 1990s, he also performed on albums by M People, Beck and Tom Jones. In the 2000s, he played on albums by bands such as Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds, Pearl Jam, Jane Birkin, Lisa Germano and Crowded House. He also plays guitar on Girls Aloud's fifth album, Out of Control, on a track entitled "Rolling Back the Rivers in Time", as well as harmonica on the track "Love Is the Key". He also appeared on two tracks ("Enough of Me" and "Central") on John Frusciante's album The Empyrean which was released January 2009.

Marion

 * The Program (1998)

Haven

 * Between the Senses (2002)
 * All for a Reason (2004)

As well as Marion, Haven and solo he has produced songs by the Smiths, Electronic, Johnny Marr and the Healers, Billy Bragg, Kirsty MacColl, Andrew Berry and The Impossible Dreamers.

Albums (other appearances)
He has also appeared on the following albums:

 * Hard Rain Vol One (A Tribute to Bob Dylan) with the song "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright"
 * Ruby Trax – The NME's Roaring Forty with the song "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" (Johnny Marr and Billy Duffy)
 * 1969 Key to Change with the song "Tendency to Be Free"
 * People on the Highway: A Bert Jansch Encomium with the song "A Woman Like You" (Johnny Marr and the Healers)

Singles
Marr's recording of "Life Is Sweet", the theme song he wrote for the Channel Four Sitcom The Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret, was released on Echo Records.

Marr's cover version of the Depeche Mode track “I Feel You” was in support of Record Store Day. Its B-side was a version of "Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want" (live).

The non-album single "Armatopia" was selected for the soundtrack for eFootball Pro Evolution Soccer 2020.

title: Johnny Marr


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Bob Foster (boxer)

Robert Wayne Foster (April 27, 1942 – November 21, 2015) was an American professional boxer who fought as a light heavyweight and heavyweight. He won the world light heavyweight title from Dick Tiger in 1968 via fourth-round knockout, and went on to defend the title fourteen times against thirteen different fighters in total from 1968 to 1974. Foster challenged Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali during his career, but was knocked out by both (the fight with Ali was not for a world heavyweight title, but for the regional NABF version). He was named to Ring's list of 100 Greatest Punchers of all time. He was also named to Ring's list of the 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years, ranking at No. 55. He was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in the inaugural class of 1990.

Early life
Foster was born at Borger, Texas on April 27, 1942. In his childhood years his family moved to Albuquerque in New Mexico, and he received his formal education at Albuquerque High School. On leaving school he enlisted with the United States Air Force, in which he served with the rank of Airman Second Class. He began boxing on the Golden Gloves amateur circuit, and also took part in competitive inter-service matches for the U.S. Air Force.

Boxing career
Foster started his professional career on the night of March 27, 1961, against Duke Williams, in Washington, D.C., winning by knockout in two rounds. The first 12 bouts of his career were spent campaigning in the United States' Eastern coast and in Canada. In his tenth bout, he made his first of multiple forays into the heavyweight division, and suffered his first loss, at the hands of Doug Jones, by a knockout in the eighth round.

After two more wins, he went in 1963 to Peru, where he lost to South American champion Mauro Mina by a decision in ten rounds at Lima. This was his first major Light Heavyweight bout, but it wouldn't be his last.

Three more fights back in the States resulted in quick knockout wins for him, and then, in 1964, he made his second attempt at entering the heavyweight rankings, being knocked out in the seventh by future world Heavyweight champion Ernie Terrell. He finished the year by posting three more knockout wins at Light Heavyweight, two of them in the month of November. The night of November 11 was Foster's first win of note as a light-heavyweight. One month after knocking out Don Quinn in the first round, he stepped up in the ring again and faced former world title challenger Henry Hank. He beat Hank by a knockout in the tenth.

In 1965, he had five fights, winning four and losing one. He beat Hank again, by decision in 12 rounds, and lost to Zora Folley, by a decision in ten rounds, in another attempt at joining the heavyweight top ten.

In 1966 he defeated Leroy Green in two rounds.

By 1967, Foster, although his attempts to become a top heavyweight were being frustrated, was a ranked light heavyweight. He decided to stick to the light-heavyweight division for the time being, and he won all seven of his fights, six by knockout. Among the fighters he beat were Eddie Cotton, Eddie Vick, and Sonny Moore. After defeating Moore, Foster was the world's number one ranked light heavyweight challenger.

World light-heavyweight champion
In 1968, Foster got his first shot at a world title. At Madison Square Garden in New York, on the night of March 24, Foster became world champion by knocking out Dick Tiger in four rounds. Tiger had been a two-time world middleweight champion and was defending his world light heavyweight crown that night. Foster then decided to box at heavyweight once again, and beat Charlie Polite by a knockout in three. He ended that year defeating Vick again, and his future world title challenger Roger Rouse, both by a knockout.

In 1969, he began by rising off the canvas to knock out Frank DePaula in the same first round and retain his belt. It is believed that was the first time ever a boxer won a world title fight in the first round after being floored in that same round. It is also believed that that fight is one of only three times that's happened... the second time being in 1984, when Juan Meza rose off a knockdown to dethrone world Jr. Featherweight champion Jaime Garza in the same first round too. It also happened in the 21st century, when Kendall Holt was dropped twice, only to knockout Ricardo Torres in round 1, for the WBO 140 lb title.

Foster's next fight in 1969 was against Andy Kendall, whom he beat in four rounds by knockout, to once again retain the crown. He closed the 1960s with two more knockout wins.

Frazier vs Foster
In 1970, Foster made two more trips to the heavyweights. In the first, he beat fringe contender Lee Wallace in six rounds by knockout. This was followed by a return to the light-heavyweight division to defend his title against Rouse. Infuriated by some comments that Rouse's manager had made before the bout concerning the fact that even though Foster knocked out Rouse in their first bout he was not able to drop him, Foster dropped Rouse five times en route to a fourth-round knockout victory. A knockout in 10 to retain the title against Mark Tessman followed, and then he was given the chance to challenge for the world heavyweight title. Facing world champion Joe Frazier on the night of November 18 in Detroit, he was knocked out in two rounds.

After defeating Hal Carroll by a knockout in four rounds to defend his crown, the WBA stripped him of the title, but he was still recognized by the WBC as a champion. Foster became enraged at the WBA, which proceeded to have Vicente Rondon of Venezuela and Jimmy Dupree fight for the world title. Rondon won, becoming the second Latin American world light-heavyweight champion (after José Torres), and Foster set his eyes on him. Foster went on defending his WBC title, and he defeated challengers Ray Anderson, Tommy Hicks, and Brian Kelly. Of those three, it was Anderson who was the only one to last the 15 round distance with Foster.

Ali vs Foster
Foster and Rondon met in Miami on April 7, 1972, in a unification bout. Foster became the undisputed world champion once again, by knocking Rondon out in the second round. In his next fight, he used what many critics have called one of the best punches in history to retain his title by a knockout in four against Mike Quarry. Foster then went up in weight and faced former and future world heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali, on November 21, 1972, in what was legendary referee Mills Lane's first bout of note as a referee. Foster lost to Ali by a knockout in the eighth, after being knocked down 7 times.

In 1973, Foster retained his title twice against Pierre Fourie, both by decision. Their second fight had a distinct social impact because it was fought in apartheid-ruled South Africa, Foster being Black and Fourie being White. Foster became a hero to South African Blacks by beating Fourie the first time around, and in their rematch, the first boxing fight in South Africa during apartheid featuring a White versus a Black, he cemented that position by defeating Fourie on points again.

Piet Koornhoff was the South African Minister of Sport at that time and he had to be persuaded to allow the fight. He had to amend the regulations relating to the prohibition of "mixed sport" in order to do so. Foster was allowed into the country on condition that he refrain from making any political comments or speeches. In a post fight interview he diplomatically responded to a question that he liked the country and would be willing to come back again. This explains the sentiment of Mark Mathabane as noted in his autobiography Kaffir Boy, that South Africa's black population felt betrayed by Foster since he did not address apartheid during his time in South Africa.

His last defense as world light-heavyweight champion came in 1974, when he was dropped by Argentinian Jorge Ahumada, but managed to keep the title with a draw. After that, he announced his retirement, leaving the world's light-heavyweight championship vacant.

Foster returned to boxing in 1975, before retiring from the sport in 1978 at the age of 36.

Post-boxing life
In the mid-1970s Foster became a police officer with the Bernalillo County Sheriff's Department, later becoming a detective and a well known policeman in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Personal life
He married Pearl with whom he had four children. He divorced then married Sue. He had a child named Nelson. Foster married Patricia Saiz in 1982. Her death in 1984 was ruled a suicide. His fourth wife was Rosetta Benjamin.

Foster died at the age of 73 on November 21, 2015, in a hospital in Albuquerque, New Mexico. His body was buried at Fairview Memorial Park cemetery in Albuquerque.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Bob Foster (boxer)


text:
Talk:Julmust

Sommarmust
Just thought I'd point out that "sommarmust" was a test that apparently failed, because "sommarmust" is not listed among the drinks at http://www.carlsbergsverige.se/Drycker/Vatten/Sidor/Default.aspx -- which it apparently was at some point, because a blogger linked to it: http://matnils.blogspot.com/2007/07/070727-sommarmust-what-fudge.html ... I suggest the reference is removed or moved to a more parenthetical location. Kallewoof (talk) 22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I never thought påskmust and julmust tasted the same.

Woohoo! I'm so glad that there is sometime, somewhere, when coca cola isn't the biggest!! Nothing can strike down our Julmust! Coca Cola on Christams eve? Naaaw.. sounds awful

Just a note, I live in Sweden, and I have (nor have any of my friends, I asked them) seen julmust produced by Coca-Cola. So Im going to take away that part until proven otherwise.

 * They actually do, read swedish WP. BTW I've drunk it myself, it is being sold under the name Bjäre julmust. TERdON 00:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * There are a few places - see the references at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn_Bru ! :-) Matthew 15:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * just a little note, the bottle contains 2 liters, and is shaped like a Fanta bottle. ErikHK 17:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

''Must was created by Harry Roberts and his father Robert Roberts in 1910 as a non-alcoholic alternative to beer. The syrup is still made exclusively by Roberts AB in Örebro. The original recipe is said to be locked up in a safe with only one person knowing the full recipe.''

I've heard a rumor that the person who created must sold the syrup (or the rights to make their own syrup or as the current article puts it) but simply refused to let Coca-Cola buy it. I do not why he wouldn't let them or if it's true at all (could just be some nationalistic made up story), but at least Coca-Cola sells it's own must brand (as the article mentions).

 * Coca-Cola probably buys the syrup from Roberts just like everybody else. // Liftarn

 * Yes, they do: "Koncentratet till must tillverkas än idag av Roberts AB i Örebro och används av i princip samtliga musttillverkare. Receptet är fortfarande hemligt och förutom koncentratet tillsätter Coca-Cola en egen hemlig blandning av ingredienser som ger just Bjäre dess karaktäristiska smak." From:  //83.248.11.143 (talk) 11:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the use of must in food should be mentioned? It is sometimes used as an ingredient in marinades. Any thoughts? --Hallonboat 20:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

 * It's quite rare, but if you find any sources for it then go ahead. Perhaps we should also mention that you sometimes mix julmust with dark beer (like Guinness) to create something like mumma. // Liftarn

Like beer?
Does anyone else think julmust tastes like beer? I must say that I have never made that connection. /Cygnus78 (talk) 22:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither have I. However, to a person that don't know of Julmust, the round and thick taste of dark beer might be useful. Ssteinberger (talk) 18:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know if it tastes similar to the (lightly fermented) Norwegian Christmas-drink "Tomtebrygg"? 62.113.159.156 (talk) 18:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the one drink with the most similar taste to julmust is not beer, root-beer, etc. but just a regular coca-cola. However I find the tast of julmust to be a little bigger and more aromatic.83.254.69.178 (talk) 17:20, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There is another softdrink made from juniper that have a similar taste to Julmust. RBM 72 (talk) 18:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had julmust and found the taste quite difficult to describe. The closest approximation I can think of is a root beer with added sweetness and tartness. Hellbus (talk) 03:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here. If you have concerns, please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 10:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Apotekarnes julmust, glasflaska.jpg

title: Talk:Julmust


text:
Talk:120 film

Reason for the name?
Who gave 120 film the name "120" and why?

Kodak did, and the number was arbitrary: they started with 101, and it was the 20th film size they'd introduced. Shalom S. 01:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm only curious: Is there a citation or reference anywhere for this? And published information about "100" through "119"? I'm still looking through my library of photographic technology and history books. Walter Dufresne (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

120 and 220
What is the difference between 120 and 220, exactly?

How many exposures?

 * 220 is 120 without paper tape this allow to double the lenght of the film but the camera must have a frame counter and must be absoltely light-proof, this is not the case of most the folders that have a hole with a red filter to see the numbers on the paper tape.
 * User:Ericd

Hasselblad and Rolleiflex
User:Ericd removed the following passage:

- The cameras that introduced the medium format to the professional photographer, and established the 120 as the medium format of choice, was the Hasselblad and the Rolleiflex.

My comment is: On the grounds that it is inexact? Why? I could perhaps agree wrt. the Rollei, but the Hassy surely set a standard that should be mentioned... Also, there should be a link from 120 to some cameras that use it, I think...

Egil 11:53 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * At second lecture this not really inexact, the Rolleiflex, the Hassy and the best 35mm (Leica, Contax and Nikon rangefinders) replaced the 4"x5" like the Speed Graphic for many professional use, but professional 120 like the zeiss Super Ikonta existed before.
 * Your text was also misleading the reader because the 120/620 originally an amateur format as common as the 35mm today see folding camera. IMHO we should take some text from folding camera to explain the decline of the 120 as an amateur format and his rise as professionnal format and mix it with your text and rework that all.
 * User:Ericd

 * Agreed, that seems like a very good idea. Can you do it? Egil 20:19 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * Yes but not now it's getting late.

Ericd 20:56 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * 80.202.80.14 you may be right but I have never seen bobbin in that context. Try a search on Google. Have a look at this page  for instance. A photographer will speak of rollfilm and spool (take-up spool and giving spool).
 * User:Ericd

 * Probably a US vz. UK issue, then? I still think bobbin is more exact. Perhaps something akin to GRP vz. fibreglass? --Egil 20:19 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

620
When was the 620 discontinued ? Ericd 19:29 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * How would I know? --Egil 20:19 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * Jeez, brownies used 620 film, which is why they're called "Brownie 620" cameras. Someone wanna change that?
 * Brownies were made from 1901 onwards. 620 film was made from 1930s or so. Not *ALL* Brownies take 620. I have a Brownie No. 2 Model E that specifically says "Use Film No. 120". It would not work with 620 film spools as the turning "key" is too large for 620 spools (see the photos I've posted to the article on the differences between 120 and 620 spools) Caradea 18:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Exakta
Exakta still produce camera ? Ericd

New table
I just moved a lot of frame size information into a table, which is easier to see at a glance. I added columns for the aspect ratio and nominal frame size, but it's mostly guess work. Since the nominal height of the frame is actually 56mm, I went from there trying to work everything out. The only problem is 6x12, which I figured was a 1:2 panoramic format. Well 2x56mm = 112mm, which is closer to 11cm. So, should it really be called 6x11, or is it actually closer to 12cm long? Everything else works out pretty well. Imroy 18:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Linhof's web site says 2:1 for the 612 camera. Six exposures on 120. Probably the frame of film is a bit smaller because of blank space between exposures (but I don't see actual dimensions on the web site). Linhof Fg2 20:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * After some experimentations with old folders I have reached the conclusion than more or less 2mm is not very important in on 120 film. Be aware that that it 120 film is a "de facto" standard that started before any official international, European or US standard. However, I think its possible to find some ISO standard for the 120 film that will give the "real" size of the picture, however it's "a posteriori", IMO. Ericd 19:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Exact length?
I did some searching for ISO 732 in an attempt to get an official figure on the length of 120 and 220 films. But not even a few P2P networks turned up anything. So the only route appears to be handing over 74 Swiss Francs to ISO just to get a few numbers. And even then it can't be easily cited here on Wikipaedia - no link can be supplied for other people to see so who's to say the numbers are correct?

So I pulled out some of my own film - a roll of Konica Minolta Centuria Pro 400 in 220 that I accidentally dropped and unrolled a few years ago, and a roll of Ilford FP4+ in 120 that a repairer recently used in testing the frame spacing of my Pentacon Six. The 220 was about 159 cm long, and the 120 about 81 cm (measurement doesn't include the piece(s) of tape attaching the film to the paper). Much longer than the 72/144 cm figures given in the article!

Doing some searching now I turned up this page. It says you need "30 inches" (76.2 cm) to get eight exposures of the "original" 6x9 format, and then says most manufacturers use 32-33 inches (81.3-83.8 cm). That matches my measurement. I'll be adding this as a reference unless I can find a better one. --Imroy (talk) 11:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Seems to me that the film tends to go a little past the usual end. For cameras that don't use the red window, there might be some uncertainty.  Also, when you load it into the reel, for reels that spool from the inside out, a few cm of film isn't usable.  (I have one that has a sharp hook in the center to hold the film.  You don't want that though an actual image.)  It would be interesting to see what the ISO says. Gah4 (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I bought the spec specifically because I could otherwise not find any official numbers online, and found many variations of the width of 120 film, everything from 59mm to 62mm was reported as "nominal". I updated the page to give the official spec numbers, as well as to leave commonly seen sizes. Not sure how to give a citation to ISO 732 though since it's not easily accessible without purchase. 2601:285:C000:22C1:255A:7A43:BA27:654C (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

 * As well as I understand it, there is no problem with pay references. (As long as you have read it.) Gah4 (talk) 04:21, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

What is the width in millimeters?
This Wikipedia article is very strange. The most important fact about 120 film -- the width of the film -- is mentioned only near the end of the article in a section about non-120 films. Furthermore, the width of 120 film in millimeters -- which is the standard way of measuring film -- is not mentioned at all. Instead, the width is awkwardly described as 2.466 inches. Realute (talk) 01:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Unless you are starting a film factory, or processing equipment factory, it isn't very important. All you need to know is that the film you buy is right, and the development tanks are designed for that width. Gah4 (talk) 02:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Look under 120 film. - Denimadept (talk) 02:54, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

 * I have no idea why Denimadept is telling me to look under "Frame sizes". Maybe it is because Denimadept does not understand the difference between frame size and film width. In any case, everything I wrote in my original post remains true -- unfortunately. Realute (talk) 04:28, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

If anybody wants to learn how to properly write a Wikipedia article about film, take a look at this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/135_film

Notice that the most important fact about 135 film -- the width of the film -- is mentioned in the article's first sentence. And that fact is provided in both millimeters and (parenthetically) inches. Realute (talk) 05:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I just figured that was the relevant bit. - Denimadept (talk) 05:08, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I still don't see the actual width of the film mentioned anywhere - I might deduce the nominal width is 6cm, but nowhere is it actually explicitly stated, and the nominal width may not be the actual width. As the previous poster said, surely this is THE most important attribute of the film? 89.168.82.45 (talk) 00:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

When 120 film started, metric units were rare in the US. Exactly why 35mm is metric, I don't know. But for roll film, the width of the spool and the backing paper are more important than the width of the film. The film is usually slightly narrower than the paper, such that the paper makes a tight seal against the spool. Gah4 (talk) 04:25, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The older size 116/616 roll film was exactly 70 mm. Dicklyon (talk) 22:15, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * There is the well known story that Edison, when asked about the size of a movie film frame, said "About an inch by three quarters". That would be about 18mm by 25mm, close to the size of a 35mm movie film frame today, and half frame for still 35mm.  But that doesn't all explain the source for the film width.  Possibly it originated in English units, and was later rounded to a nice metric size.  I suspect it isn't an accident that 70mm is twice 35mm, but again, it might have been a later rounding. Gah4 (talk) 02:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

 * It seems that 35_mm_film says that Edison made his film 1.375in, which comes out to 34.925mm. I suspect that 35mm is within the tolerance.  The early roll film widths were likely in inches, and later converted to convenient metric units. Gah4 (talk) 02:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Decimals were rarely used with imperial measurements. The size was most likely specified as $1 3/8$ inches (which as noted is so close to 35 mm as makes no difference). I cannot find any source for a tolerance for 35 mm film but I have just measured several 35 mm films (negative and print) and the actual size varies more than 0.075 mm, but most are actually narrower than 35 mm with an average of 34.927 mm. This might suggest (but not prove) that the size is specified in imperial measure but named from its nominal metric size. When 35 mm film was first developed(!), metric measurements were still very new in Europe and probably relatively unheard of in the US. 86.164.61.122 (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Today, it is not unusual to see decimal values given for binary fractions. (Where the denominator is a power of 2.) A 3/8 inch drill bit is not uncommonly specified as 0.375in.  But things might have been different in Edison's day. US rulers are commonly divided into 1/16 inch units, but only numbered every inch. (The gradations have different lengths, making it easier to read of halves, quarters, and eighths.) One might even read or write 0.375 and pronounce it as three eighths.  It might be easier typographically to specify in decimal fractions. I suspect that, as noted above, film tends to be narrower instead of wider. Too wide, and it will bind against the spool edge, and pathways through the camera or processing system. In the case of 120, the paper is slightly wider than the spool width such that it makes a tighter seal, and the film slightly narrower. Often just a little light leaks through, exposing outside the image frame, but not inside. Gah4 (talk) 23:51, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Not common at all. Most imperial drill bits (ignoring the letter and number sizes) and even spanners are marked in fractional amounts. That does not mean that no decimal marked imperial bits or spanners exist, it's just uncommon. Googling "3/8 inch drill bits" returns many hits for - well - 3/8 inch drill bits. Googling "0.375 inch drill bits" returns hits to mostly 3/8 inch drill bits and even those showing 0.375 drill bits lead to sites where the bits are sized in fractions . Same for spanners. 86.164.61.122 (talk) 14:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * There must be something between not unusual and common. From drill bit sizes, it is usual to have a big chart with fraction and decimal values when one needs to convert, though it also says that most memorize them after not so long. Gah4 (talk) 14:32, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * From the very article that you cite. "In the U.S., fractional inch … drill bit sizes are in common use" and "Fractional inch drill bit sizes are still in common use … ." and "Drill bit sizes are written as irreducible fractions" etc. etc. Although the article has a decimal/fraction equivalent table, nowhere does it state that imperial drills are labelled in decimal sizes. Any engineering drawing should specify the drill size to use without having to refer to a table to find the correct size (that's how cock ups are made). 86.164.61.122 (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * I have been ignoring your mention of Imperial units, assuming that you meant United_States_customary_units, but maybe not. As you find from that page, the US never used Imperial units. I do remember from when I was young, that gasoline stations in Canada used Imperial gallons, which are 5/4 the size of the US gallon. I don't know any other Imperial units. If a distinction needs to be made, US units are commonly called English units, even if that makes little sense historically or currently. In some cases, SAE units, especially for car parts. (For many years now, US car companies produce cars with both SAE and metric parts.) Some US units have changed slightly over the time scale of photography and film sizes. Gah4 (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Yes, the US does use imperial units. It may not use many, but it does use a few. The inch, foot and yard are all imperial units in spite of what the US may designate them. The US and the rest of the world agreed the size of the yard in 1958 (0.9144 metres exactly) although the UK and US were both using a very slightly shorter yard before that (defined as the length of a 'standard yard' bronze bar of which the US received one of 39 copies in 1855). The original standard bar was measured in 1895 in metres and the yard became defined in law as $36/39.370113$ metres in 1897 although it was still the length of the standard bar. The difference was a little less than 1 part per million.

 * Most other US customary units are not imperial, such as the (US) gallon, the fluid ounce etc. etc. The US gallon is not $4/5$ of an imperial gallon. The US gallon is 16 fluid ounces and the imperial gallon is 20 fluid ounces. However, the US fluid ounce, being a US customary unit is not the same as the imperial fluid ounce. 1 US gallon = 1.20949926 imperial gallons (to 10 sig figs). 1 US fluid ounce = 1.040842731 imperial fluid ounces even though the US does use the imperial avoirdupois pound and hence ounce. The US uses the imperial troy pound and ounce as well. 86.164.61.122 (talk) 14:15, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

 * The one I remember from so many years ago was the Canadian Imperial gallon, which might be different from any other Imperial gallon. (For those not counting, Canada went metric many years ago by now.) For those near the US-CA border, it is interesting to note that the duty-free rules for liquor allow 1L into the non-metric US, and 40oz (I am not sure by now which oz) into metric Canada. US liquor is commonly sold in 750ml bottles, but they make special 1L bottle for duty-free shops. I don't know about the 40oz bottles for CA. Gah4 (talk) 21:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

 * A little further digging turns up a paper published by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) dated 1970 giving the dimensions of 35mm (motion picture) film (amongst other things). All the dimensions are in relatively convenient imperial units (inches though decimal not fractional) with metric conversions to five decimal places. The width of the film is given as 1.375 inches, the distance between the centres of the perforations is 1.11 inches and the pitch of the perforations is 0.1875" which is $3/16$ of an inch (which would be correct as there are 16 frames per (imperial) foot of film). Unfortunately, no tolerances are given. As far as I am concerned, that is adequate evidence that 35mm is a nominal description of an inherently imperial sized film.

 * Note that: the size of the perforations is not given because there are three types, one for camera film (BH perforation) and a different shape for projection (KS perforation). The third (CS perforation) was used for early Cinemascope film but required different sprockets in the projector (which could run KS perf but with poor horizontal and vertical registration). 86.164.61.122 (talk) 11:47, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 * Just found the tolerance on a different page of the SMPTE spec. All dimensions are +/- 0.2%. I also found the dimensions in the 35 mm movie film article, where it claims that it is quoting a 1965 SPMTE specification. In fact it is not, it is quoting an army specification largely about cameras. The SMPTE dimensions are given in an appendix, but not 1965 ones as claimed. The latest given is 1938, but this is for positive film not camera film. 86.164.61.122 (talk) 14:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Frame numbering
"the four standard image formats (6×4.5, 6×6, 6×7, and 6×9; see below) are printed on the backing paper." All that I have seen, and I have a backing paper roll sitting here right now, are numbered for 8, 12, and 16 frames. There are two or three sets of numbers for each. Gah4 (talk) 04:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * For 6x9cm, the numbers are 1 to 8, for 6x6 it's 1 to 12, for 6x4.5cm, it's 1 through 16. Is that what you're asking?  Cameras for each size put the red window over the appropriate line of numbers. - Denimadept (talk) 16:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

 * For 6x7 it is 10 frames/roll, but there aren't numbers on the paper for that. The article indicates that there are. Such cameras position the film without a red window. But I really wanted to know if some actually did, and I hadn't noticed. Gah4 (talk) 17:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

smallest
6×4.5 is the smallest and least expensive roll-film frame size; equipment to take photos in this size is also the lightest. Seems like 127 and 828 are smaller roll film formats, with smaller image size, but both are pretty much discontinued. But since the whole idea of medium format is larger image area, why the interest in smallest? (Kodak seems not to consider 35mm as a roll film format, where roll films have the paper backing.) Gah4 (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:120 film


text:
Talk:Simón Bolívar

Infobox Portrait Discussion?
. In the past few weeks there's been some dispute over which portrait should be used to represent Bolívar in his infobox. In order to avoid an edit war, I'd suggest proper consensus be reached here before further edits are made. Below are some candidates which have been under in contention. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

 * 4th portrait seems to be the best option. Despite it being non-contemporary it's pretty accurate and in line with actual contemporary works. I would rule out the 1st portrait since it looks like a caricature in my opinion. Karl Krafft (talk) 03:18, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with every point of this. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  10:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

 * 3rd portrait I have just uploaded a much higher quality version of this image on Commons. It is among the most iconic paintings of Bolivar (and has been copied by many other painters and lithographers) which makes it well-suited for the infobox. A possible con is the full-body framing, but perhaps a crop at the waist could be made now that the resolution is higher. — Goszei (talk) 07:47, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Addendum: Does anyone have any information about these paintings: ? They appear to be copied from some original; if that original is contemporary, it would make an excellent choice for the infobox (it's a very heroic pose). — Goszei (talk)  00:47, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 4th portrait - Although the non-contemporary nature of it makes it not a great choice, the rest all look clunkier to me. casualdejekyll  01:56, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Prefer the other three over 4 - 4 isn't terrible, but it is best to have a contemporary portrait. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

 * 2nd portrait - It is a contemporary portrait and it's proportions are well suited for the infobox. Alternatively, a cropped version of 3 would be good too. Also, how can you say it is not "the most accurate depiction"? Torimem (talk) 20:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4th portrait - Just realized I never actually voted on the discussion I myself started. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 4th portrait — Given that the 4th seems an accurate likeness, I think it’s main con of being non-contemporary is out weighed by its many pros.  Aza24  (talk)   20:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

mouments
There are monuments in the US as well, why aren't they listed? Like this one in New Orleans: https://louisianadigitallibrary.org/islandora/object/state-lhp:7656 and I work on Bolivar Street in New Orleans which is named after him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A40:5B90:1D49:A67A:1A81:CC1E (talk) 05:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

 * Anyone can edit Wikipedia, feel free to add it if there is a corresponding citation and it's relevant. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

 * There is already a list of objects and places that memorialize Bolívar; naming names and places has previously size crept this article beyond reason, so I must defer your attention to List of places and things named after Simón Bolivar. – ♠Vami _IV†♠  04:04, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

"current countries"
While Simon Bolivar is credited with liberating five (5) nations, the article in English fails to mention Panama -a former territory of Colombia- as one of the "current" countries led by him to independence from the Spanish Empire. In the Spanish version of the same entry, the correction has been made in a way that better reflects the extent of Bolivar's accomplishments. 2601:80:4681:5EC0:4542:5EB3:DD4C:CE54 (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Translations
I saw that the Arabic version of the article is fairly comprehensive and throughly cited. Perhaps we should import some of the citations to here as well? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 06:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

"Simón Bolívar Day" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Simón Bolívar Day and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 2 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 13:19, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Simón Bolívar


text:
Talk:The End of History and the Last Man

Utter counterfactual nonsense
As I said at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.154.17 (talk) 14:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Arguments Supporting Fukuyama
One of the arguments supporting Fukuyama is the Democratic Peace Theory (DPT). While this in itself is true the article also mentions that ethnic wars and refugee's have declined in number. I'm pretty sure this can't be true. I've taken several political science classes at the University of California at Irvine which say just the opposite, that the end of the cold war brought about a huge increase in ethnic and intrastate conflict. Rob 06:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

(I capitalized "Democratic Peace Theory" because the acronym is used later in the article. You guys!! THIS time it was in the next paragraph. Sometimes it's at the end of the article that an acronym is used and the reader has NO idea where it came from. Anyone in the upper reaches of Wikipedia take note: Capitalize and note (???) ALL acronyms. Please!! (ooops)66.235.11.41 (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC))

Regarding the Dean Babst, Michael Doyle and Bruce Russett writings, DPT have only one major conclusion: a war between two democracies has a very low probability to occur. But as Doyle wrote: "no one can argue such a war is impossible". (Kant liberal legacies and foreign affairs). It does NOT concern in any case ethnic conflicts. It does NOT concern war between democracy and non-democratic countries. On the contrary, quantitative studies show that democracies are more war prone with non-liberals countries. "Fukuyama and friends" arguments often result of a quick and wrong reading of the DPT articles. Since all the countries are not democratic-liberal, no one can argue for a quick pacification of the international relations from the DPT assessments. DPT and its supporter do not necessary support Fukuyama’s theory, and often do the contrary.

At last, Kant’s writings about History only conclude about a possible pacification of mankind. The end of history he described was not something sure from his point of view.

Find my profile on the French wikipedia as " seb' "

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.216.204.185 (talk • contribs) 16:48, May 1, 2007

---

The concept of the End of history has been ridiculed by many, especially after the September 11th terrorist attacks. For the Hegelian dialectic to end, human nature would have to change (IMHO). Chadloder 08:11 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

I added a paragraph to explain what the 'end of history' thesis actually means, becuase people insist on making the most basic of all mistakes and confusing 'history' with 'events'. In fact it wouldn't matter if there was a nuclear war, and most human life was wiped out: Fukuyama would simply reply that it would take a few more millenia for parliamentary democracy to flourish. Also I changed 'retracted' to 'qualified': Fukuyama has never retracted his end of history thesis, for the above reason. A much better critique of Fukuyama would be to state that his theory was in no way new: Hegel and Kojeve had fundamentally said much the same thing (as Fukuyama admits). (BScotland).

I think because of some of this the article is a bit too charitable to Fukuyama. With such a wide definition his thesis is essentially silly and improvable. The fact that there are still philosophies which, at least potentially, offer a challenge to liberal democracy is a very valid critique of his thesis. Moreover the line of defense you lay out would, in and of itself, invalidate his thesis. If Democracy was destined to triumph then history (as he defines it) couldn't have ended because it never really existed. Furthermore such long range criticism opens him up to a counter Marxist critique of people like Meghnad Desai who would say that Marxism WILL eventually triumph but perhaps not for centuries or millenia.

There is another problem I see with this ideology. Like Marxists, Fukuyama sees history as a progressive narrative that builds towards a dramatic conclusion (though the author concludes that this finality would be far from "utopic"). The emergence of Islamic fundamentalism provides a dramatic counterexample, as others have mentioned.

Not only is this a new movement, but it also is a challenge to the progressive narrative claim. The adaptation of this ideology, for better or for worse, would revert the world to the 12th century. Is democracy the champion ideology? Seemingly, yes. Would it be difficult to destroy due to the power of the nations that have adapted it? Again, yes.

For these reasons, Fukuyama sees no possible challenge once the world has adapted democracy, a very Cold War-esque perspective. He fails to note that the antagonist doesn't have to be an outside force - the system could collapse due to internal failings including, but not limited to, economic catastrophe.

--Hohenstauff 23:29, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

 * See also Universal History. Fukuyama (and Marxists) claim legitimecy from Hegel's "Hegelian Dialectic", the idea that history as a progression towards a better state. Most professional historians see this as flawed, it is coming up with a Universal Theory on history first (induction), cherry picking the facts to fit your model, and ignoring the contradictions. Rather, real history is done via deductive reasoning, looking at all the facts and coming up with conclusions. Hegel, and Fukuyama and Marx, were philosophers (to put it kindly), not historians. Stbalbach 00:22, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally I am baffled as to why people still insist that 'Islamic Fundamentalism' (a phrase used in the West, and only in the West, to describe many different ideologies and religious beliefs) offers a 'fundamental' challenge to Parliamentary democracy. To reiterate, whenever such states have been established they were quickly defeated by the superior military powers of the democracies. Moreover, the appeal of (for example) Osama Bin Laden is wildly overstated in the West. Opinion polls, even nowadays (for example) state that for most Palestinians the most admirable political system is.....Israel's. The idea that Arabs actually enjoy living in US backed dictatorships is a pervasive (and vaguely racist) myth. On the contrary, it is the fact that such dictatorships exist and are enthusiastically supported by the US that is the cause of much Arab militancy. George Bush is despised because he is seen as being a hypocrite when he talks about democracy, not because he promises democracy per se.

Iran and Saudi Arabia have not been defeated bu democratic states. Moreover your analysis is locked into a paradigm which sees the state as the only legitimate and meaningful international actor. A lot of commentators in the west have seen fundamentalist Islam, and especially the developement of what some have termed "viral Al Qaeda" as a direct challenge to the hegemony of the state system in international affairs. Moreover I think it's entirely valid to talk about Fundamentalist Islam as at least a potential challenge to liberal democracy since a number of the philosphers of Fundamentalist Islam see it in precisely that way.

The fact is (and it is a fact) that there is currently no serious alternative to Parliamentary democracy. Neither is any likely to develop at any point in the near future. It may well be the case that at some impossibly distant future time, some alternative will be found, but let's face facts. When I die, the country i live in (the UK) will still be a parliamentary democracy, as will all of Europe, as will the US, as will Australia. It is also highly likely that most of Africa/South America will stay democratic, because there is no serious intellectual alternative. Even if capitalism did 'collapse': so what? People would just go about recreating it, becuase, to repeat, no serious alternative has been developed.
 * Yes, that is your opinion.

 * -G

 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 10:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Islamic democracy?
"(...) either they will become Islamic democracies (like Turkey) or they will simply disintegrate." I wonder if "Turkey = islamic democracy" is the author's opinion, or an interpretation -and what does it mean in the first place? Can you call France a 'christian democracy'? Just like France, Turkey is a secular democracy. Gandy.Phoebus 23:38, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct. Change it if you want. I merely meant that an 'Islamic' government currently rules the country, but as you correctly point out, this doesn't make Turkey an Islamic democracy.

Nietzsche's Last Man
Was Nietzsche's concept of the Last Man explicitly implied in the title? The article makes no mention of it per se, though it sounds implied, so I added a link at the end.

Addition to Anonymous User's above post:

More recently, if "Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the Bioechnology Revolution" suggests that biotechnology will enable us to control our evolution and make ourselves unequal, seems to me that regardless of race, one could truly become a Ubermensch... Perhaps this is a question for the main Fukuyama page? (I'm no expert, so I don't know.)

Max Way 00:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Connection to Straus?
Hi all,

I'm curious as to the Fukuyama's possible connection with Leo Straus, especially as Fukuyama does not desire the neoconservative label associated with Paul Wolfewitz (sp?) and other of Straus's pupils. There doesn't seem to be any source for this connection... I could be wrong, but as an interested student using these articles as launching points for research some measure of citing would be helpful.

Regards,

Max Way (Renaissance College Student)

Max Way 18:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

See Fukuyama's book "American at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power and the Neoconservative Legacy." There's a chapter on Strauss.

link
http://www.marion.ohio-state.edu/fac/vsteffel/web597/Fukuyama_history.pdf#search='end%20of%20history'

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddus (talk • contribs) 02:18, May 4, 2006

The graph is "cheating"
I just think the graph is cheating because its starts off at 35, and I first thought that friendly regimes were down too just a couple, but no. There are 36-37 left. Stop playing with graphs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.36.174.24 (talk • contribs) 17:33, October 29, 2006

Title
It wouldn't be so controversial or misinterpretted if he had titled it better. "End of History" has an eschatological sound to it. It's unnecessarily dramatic.

 * "Coming to a theater near you..."
 * (explosions and car chases)
 * "...The End of History!...History will end Summer 2007"
 * Schwartzenegger: "I'll end your history"

 * Jigen III 06:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

lol, i think this guy is a complete nutjob. ````````````17:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)17:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Concerning a rebuttal found in the criticism section
"Some researchers have found empirical evidence that democracies are better at reducing poverty as compared with non-democracies.[8]"

-I have not even read the link because the research supporting this claim is not what I am contending. What I am saying is that statement is reductionist, as I'm sure there are many variables involved (eg. There are also arguments that the liberal democracies which multilateral institutions such as the WTO, IMF, and WB are supported by, ideologically and finanacially, are in fact stymieing innovative economic progress in many countries: Jamaica, Indonesia, etc...)

If this statement is to be kept in the article, I think it should be expanded upon somewhat (at least to address the complexity of the issue, so it doesn't come off as reductionist as I think it does now). Moreover, it certainly won't suffice to say only "It's more complex than this though" or something along those lines.

Also, I think it is relevant to the article.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.118.115 (talk • contribs) 19:09, November 13, 2008

Empirical evidence is never pointed out by those it dosen't favour. Sioraf (talk) 12:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Derrida, Specters of Marx and liberal democracy
Considering the empirical evidence used to "discredit" Derrida's book, I thought I could contribute to this discussion, considering I've read this book many times. Derrida is IN NO WAY trying to indict liberal democracy as an effective means of government or removing poverty, etc. What he critiques is rather the notion that by defeating communism, we have reached the end point in our political evolution and have identified the main political ideal that will magically make humanity a happy species. He points out the problems of that time (late 80's-early 90's) and how these still exist in a post-cold war world and what needs to be done to rectify the political structures that permit them or allow those injustices to take place. Perhaps also the inevitiability of new problems that will arise even with systems such as free market democracies. That's a crude summation of his point, among others in that book. The larger point is a critique of the idea that with the defeat of communism, we've vanquished Marx and his legacy for good. It should also be remembered that Derrida himself was quite a bit of an anti-communist himself, having protested injustices in socialist Poland (along with Michel Foucault) and advocating majority democracy in South Africa, among other places. The book itself (while not dismissing Marx crudely) does not provide a doctrinaire or entirely uncritical affirmation of Marx's thought and it was extremely criticized, if not dismissed, by most major Marxist thinkers at the time, even by some of his own Marxist-oriented acolytes, such as Gayatri Spivak. Afghan Historian (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Before I say anything else, I will state that your interpretation of Derrida's thoughts on the matter seems pretty well-justified, and so what I say here applies to the text of the article not your exposition of Derrida. Moving on then, the problem with the passage on Derrida's work in the article is that Derrida seems to have a very... unique take on matters of fact. I understand full well that Derrida is a liberal arts theorist and not an actual economist or scientist, so he may be woefully under-qualified to make such claims of fact, but that does not excuse the incredulous and just plain incorrect statement that "violence, inequality, exclusion, famine, and thus economic oppression affected as many human beings in the history of... humanity." When you consider the genocides and famines (the gulags, Holodomor of Ukraine come to mind) not to mention wanton destruction of wealth carried out under the Stalin-era Soviet Union and Maoist China, I would disagree. My counter-statement amounts to the fact that the spread of western liberal democracy has drastically cut back on the violence, famine, and economic oppression experienced in the world. Taking your point, Afghan Historian, I would agree that western liberal democracy seems to stall-out when it comes to solving the massive crises of places like Africa. In fairness, if you look at the intellectual attention that groups like TED Talks have given to these matters, and that TED Talks could only effectively exist in a western liberal capitalist democracy, I am optimistic for western mixed/capitalist democracy on this point.

76.199.175.33 (talk) 18:02, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Ehhh, I'm just gonna edit out that Mark Steyn nonsense until further notice.
''In his 2006 book America Alone, Mark Steyn argued that Europe and its liberal democracy were threatened by declining birthrates of native Christian Europeans in conjunction with a dramatic population growth of Muslim immigrants, who did not share Europeans' affinity for tolerance and democracy (this is sometimes known as the "Eurabia" theory). Steyn argued that the chief cause of this trend was a lack of cultural confidence among native Europeans. In the book, Steyn wrote: "One of the most obvious refutations of Francis Fukuyama’s famous thesis The End Of History – written at the victory of liberal pluralist democracy over Soviet Communism – is that the victors didn’t see it as such. Americans – or at least non-Democrat-voting Americans – may talk about “winning” the Cold War but the French and the Belgians and Germans and Canadians don't. Very few British do... pace Fukuyama, there was no sense on the Continent that our Big Idea had beaten their Big Idea."[13]''

 * This guy is a clucking loon.--66.233.55.145 (talk) 09:04, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Utopian
The entire premise is Utopian in the worst sense. The End of History is comparable to the Kingdom of God on Earth, the Second Coming, the Last Judgement, The New Age, the Aquarian Age, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.151.239 (talk) 13:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The End of History - CANCELLED DUE TO LACK OF INTEREST
As of 2016 most commentators seem to agree that the future of liberal democracy is far from assured and we may even have passed 'Peak Democracy'. I think this may mean it's time for a re-appraisal of this article? Stub Mandrel (talk) 21:35, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Changes to "Radical Islam, tribalism, and the "Clash of Civilizations"
I have changed the last para of the above mentioned section, as the previous was the wrong depiction of Fukuyama's views, in his Wall Street Opinion Piece. Please review them, if anyone get a chance. Fukuyama's opinion piece can be found on the following link: https://englishmatters.gmu.edu/issue6/911exhibit/emails/fukuyama_wsj.htm If anyone wishes to change it, I would highly appreciate, if we could discuss it first. Thanks a lot. Zed J Alexander (talk) 23:41, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not see how the previous version was a "wrong depiction." Could you explain the issues with the previous version of the article text?  Thanks.  The new version is serviceable, but not necessarily any more accurate, in my opinion.  I fixed a few grammar errors in the new version as well. I inserted "toward" because the "evolution" phrase did not seem to make sense the way it was written, but I think the original meaning still remains.--MattMauler (talk) 17:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)