text:
Talk:Isometric projection

Image
This entry could really benefitfrom an image. It' be really easy to create. I'd add it myself, but I've never added images to articles before and am not sure how to go To do this

 * I'd be glad to do it. Adding images is easy - just upload it and then link to it from the article, so if you have something prepared, go ahead! If not, I will post one sometime. -- Wapcaplet

 * I don't have anything prepared, but it wouldn't be a challenge to create something. If I get some spare time soon, I'll do it.  I guess it's a race to see who'll do it first. :^)  -Frecklefoot

Problem
Eventually, someone will point out that video games warrant only a footnote in this article, and that "isometric" is an adjective (so the first sentence is inappropriate) and there should be a link to this page from "isometry". I'm too busy now, though. -- Mike Hardy

 * You're right there. I suppose if the video game section gets too large we could devote a new article like Isometric video games to it. (There are certainly enough of them!) -- Wapcaplet

Sim City
Sim City wasn't isometric was it? I suppose the graphics you got when your commerical zone (or whatever) sprouted an actual building (what excitement!) were sort of isometric, but still, it seems somewhat misleading to put it here, cos the actual game was played on a 2D top-down square grid. It was in the Spectrum version anyway. Ah, how I miss the old speccy... --Camembert

 * Oops. 1 wasn't 2k, 3k and 4 are -- Tarquin 00:44 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)

List of games
Should a new page be created, something like Isometric video games or List of isometric projection video games? The list is getting a bit long and starting to dominate the article. This seems inappropriate since video games are really just a footnote to the article. -Frecklefoot

 * I don't see any reason to devote an article just to a list of isometric games (there are just way too many of them, and too many possible interpretations of whether a game is/isn't isometric), but I do think it would be good to have an article devoted to iso games in general, since they really are almost a genre of their own. -- Wapcaplet

 * Too many games for their own article. Just find the most prominent ones in their own particular genre (e.g. Knight Lore in place of Alien 8 for early games - or better still, someone write an article for 3D Ant Attack - then Diablo for RPG, Starcraft (probably) for RTS, etc.) and stick them here; then can the rest. Kinitawowi 13:55, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * Two years later and the list's still waaaay too long. :)  My suggestion would be to crop it in favour of earlier games that actually made a difference (arcade, 8 bit), plus a few famous modern titles.  Sequels should be dropped, and it may be an idea to ditch those for which we've no screenshots.  As the list is so huge, we've got plenty to play with.  Ordering the list by date rather than alphabetically may also be an idea.  I'll do it myself in a few days, but will await comments.  Cheers, --Plumbago 17:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * P.S. At least we've got 3D Ant Attack since 2004!

 * I've finally started trimming the list. I've not actually removed anything, I've merely commented entries out for now, and added a comment why afterwards.  In most cases because of a lack of screenshots on the game articles.  I've also removed a few as "Johnny-come-lately" entries - games that, while isometric, don't offer anything new (to my biased mind).  I've erred on the side of earlier games, as these tend to be more influential to the genre.  That and respect for elders - although I'm old enough to have played most of them at the time they came out ...  --Plumbago 16:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Excellent work. :) I'd still lose Alien 8, though (not much over Knight Lore except a bigger map, really; and given that they were both by Ultimate we don't really need both...). I've also got a copy of Edge Retro issue 2, where they interview Sandy White and he mentions that "isometric" was a term that came out of his sculpting background; is it worth noting this as one of the first examples of a game actually being described as "isometric"? Kinitawowi 20:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Done as you requested, although I did love Alien 8 (particularly the "re-programming" sequence). I've added Marble Madness as that's an overlooked classic of the genre.  As for further changes, it'd be good to thin out the more recent titles to key entries in particular genres, e.g. RTS, reality simulators, etc.  These days I tend only to play FPS, so I'm out of touch with modern isometric games (bar Civilization).

 * Regarding your other point about the term "isometric", it might well be worth adding this (especially if you can find the source online and link to it). As 3D Ant Attack is one of the genre's first entries (and, actually, a pretty good one at that), Sandy White's comments may well be the first reference to isometric games.  Cheers, --Plumbago 09:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I almost added the game Crystal Castles to the list, but then decided to stop by the talk page first. I'm kind of glad that I did now, as I'm not sure that it was a particularly influencial game, although it appears to have inspired Nacmo to make Pac-Mania several years later. Powerlord 06:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Added Landstalker (Mega Drive) Excellent example of the limitations of isometric projection. In an attempt to try and correct this limitation sections of the game contain moving objects/platforms, which aided spatial positioning during play. This was particularly important due to the fact that the no shadows we cast by any objects. Landstalker was the fist action RPG on the Mega Drive to use ¾ view. Screen Shots available. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spark010 (talk • contribs).

Remove Isometric projection
Isometric projection is addessed under orthographic projection, Pictorials. Suggest this site my be considered for removal..... Pat Kelso 21:22, Mar 1, 2004 (UTC)

Trying to clean up
By everyone's leave will try to clean this one up....Pat Kelso 00:22, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * Looking good so far! However, the article should probably begin with a concise definition of what isometric projection is (as the old version did). I know you're in the middle of major revisions, but perhaps it'd be better to work on the revisions in a separate page (say, Talk:Isometric projection/Temp) and copy them wholesale into the article once it's in a more finished state. I fear that visitors to the article right now will be confused. -- Wapcaplet 22:51, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Pat, it looks like you included some copyrighted material. This isn't allowed in the 'pedia.  All material either must be public domain or released under the GFDL.  The text you added wasn't either, so I reverted it. You also referred to images which weren't present.  When making such big changes, take Wapcaplet's advice and work on it on a seperate page and replace the content of the article when you are done with your changes. —Frecklefoot 23:50, Mar 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * I noticed that this page seems to go off track from the subject... it starts to talk about Isometric Projection, but then it goes off on games... I think this page needs a clean up! --Moped 00:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

 * We cut it down a long time ago to mention only notable titles, but several more titles (that may not fall within the requirement of notability) would be added again through time. We may need to eliminate the list and mention only a brief paragraph of the most notable few, each covering a specific type of isometric graphics system (8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, photorealistic). ╫ 25 ring-a-ding  02:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC) ╫

 * Good job cleaning it up. I did some additional fixing with regards to putting the term "isometric" in quotes when referring to pixel art. -SharkD 06:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Innacurate
Strictly speaking, most, if not all, of the games listed actually use some form of dimetric projection. Ditto for the TV drawing. —Andux 09:28, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

 * Forgive me for being dense, but what's the difference between these projection types? None of the articles on each (bar isometric projection) show a picture of what they mean.  I think I understand what you're getting at, but a pictorial example would be helpful (for the other pages on projections too).  Cheers, --Plumbago 15:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A drawing would be helpful and some clarification text should be added to the article. I already added some on the dimetric projection article.   — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:53, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * Done. Feel free to tweak or fix the additions, I'm pretty busy at the moment. I would also recommend refering to Image:IsometricCubeGray.png and include the axis names and angles for clarity in the next version of the image. ╫ 25 ring-a-ding  13:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC) ╫
 * The title for this section is innacurate inaccurate. Jake95 ( talk!  ) 23:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Erroneous or not, it's still verifiable that pixel art and gaming quarters inaccurately use "isometric" to refer to this angle. Look at deviantART and MobyGames, for example. Both sites use "isometric" to identify pixel art or games that use this viewpoint. As much as it's dimetric, the angle is also unique from other dimetric angles in that it only uses 2x1 pixel lines in the x and y axes (compared to 1x1 pixel and 3x1 pixel lines). ╫ 25 ring-a-ding  07:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC) ╫
 * I think Jake was just trying to be clever. SharkD 20:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Rotations
"... it corresponds to rotation of the object by +/- 45° about the vertical axis, followed by rotation of approximately +/- 35.264° [= arcsin(tan(30°))] about the horizontal axis..."

It is actually +/-45 degrees and +/-45 degrees [around the vertical and horizontal axes, respectively] for true isometric, and +/-45 degress and +-30 degrees [around the vertical and horizontal axes, respectively] for the particular form of dimetric projection commonly found in computer games. I don't know where you got the arcsin(tan) stuff. -SharkD 19:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm not understanding correctly what the author was trying to state. Could someone please explain it to me? I'm tempted to change it... -SharkD 08:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I just tested it in POV-Ray. The author is correct. -SharkD 03:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. It seems like the author of this article is talking about rotating the camera first around the Y (vertical) axis and then around the X (horizontal) axis. But if you do this, your camera ends up cock-eyed. Not to mention the fact that the math works out simpler if you rotate around X first, then Y. This way, you get a 2:1 slope at 30 degrees of X rotation and true isometric projection at 45 degrees of X rotation ... I suppose I could be missing something, but that's what seems to be the case based on an OpenGL app that I've written. Anyway, the numbers given in the "Isometric" projection in video games and pixel art section contradict the numbers given on the cube rendering right next to that section. (The one with the blue camera vector--it gives 30 degrees as the 2:1 video game rotation and 35.264 for true isometric.) 71.3.218.33 (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How it is meant is, if you want to render e.g. a cube isometric. Then if you look straight to it (in z direction), you first rotate it 45° around the vertical (y), then 35.264 around horizontal (x). And it will appear isometric. So with OpenGL, you likely should use a projection matrix doing just that to all vertices. But you're right, if you view this in the way that you actually rotate the camera, you would first rotate it 35.264° around the global horizontal axis so it's bent down somewhat, then 45° around the global (not the camera's) vertical axis. Maybe should describe that in more detail.. feel free to. --Allefant (talk) 00:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

2024

 * Actually the 35.264º rotation doesn't get you an isometric view. The correct angle is acos(1/sqrt(3)) aprox. 54.74º so the information is the page is incorrect at the moment. An easy way to check is to do this in opengl and look at the angle of a cube makes with the screen X-axis. You will get ~40º instead of the expected 30º for isometric projection.
 * See https://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/181651/why-when-i-do-an-isometric-projection-do-i-get-a-dimmetric-view 135.180.33.83 (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Reasons for using dimetric in pixel art
"The projection used in videogames usually deviates slightly from true isometric due to the limitations of raster graphics. Lines in the x and y axes would not follow a neat pixel pattern when drawn in the required 30° to the horizontal."

I think that it has more to do with the fact that "3/4" view is easier on the eyes than true isometric. True isometric view, while great for mechanical part schematics, often leaves viewers feeling disoriented. -SharkD 06:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind that. -SharkD 07:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I still feel it's not the only reason. SharkD 17:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

As implied in the quote, the simple reason was: pixel ratio. You have to remember that, when isometric perspective became popular, screen resolutions were limited to 256x192 and sometimes even less (many isogames on CPC and C64 used lowres modes). You simply couldn't afford realistic perspectives on such screens, which would have actually disoriented gamers because of the limited resolution and strong pixel aliasing. Besides, the action in most isogames was focused on a single room at a time, which boundaries were confined enough to not confuse gamers. The main default of isogames was not the incorrect perspective, but the lack of projected shadows. Kaminari (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

3/4's perspective
Back in the day, people would talk about games which were "three fourth's perspective." Does anybody know if that is an accurate synonym for isometric? --Adamrush 16:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I beleive it is.  — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The term "isometric" is typically inaccurate when used to describe the type of projection used in video games (see above discussion topic). However, the common misuse of the term is synonymous with "3/4 perspective". -SharkD 05:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I think "isometric"'s common usage is also synonymous with the term "axonometric projection". SharkD 17:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, I didn't see this discussion before I changed the picture descriptions - it would be very helpful if we could back such things up with proper sources. If it is just common usage by (pixel) artists, then I agree that "3/4 perspective" is just as good as "1:2 isometric perspective" - but using quotation marks as (likely, until we find a source) neither is the proper term (and this is still the encyclopedic article about isometric projection). --Allefant 19:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an article that mentions 3/4 view. And, no, 3/4 does not refer to any particular pixel ratio. SharkD 20:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. As I said on the talk page of 3/4 perspective, a more plausible meaning is that 3/4 view is just a very general term, meaning it's neither frontal/side/top-down view. What do you think about just calling the pictures with the 1:2 games "isometric" (with quotation marks)? --Allefant 21:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK. SharkD 22:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

limits of isometric projection
Any two distances that are equal in a 3 dimensional object will be equal in isometric projection.

I wasn't sure about this statement, so I stuck it here instead. Anyone know for sure? Algr 02:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, now here is a funny situation. After finding enough references that I was satisfied that that statement was true, I then tried an experiment and proved it wrong!  (It doesn't work for a 3D object with diagonal lines or circles.)  Does no original research apply in the negative?  Can doing nothing violate NOR? Algr 20:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the above statement is only true when the distances being measured lie along one of the three cardinal axes (actually, relative to the camera). I think this question is better answered in the Orthographic Projection article. -SharkD 05:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent link
Here is an ... link to an [excellent] article discussing the use of orthographic projection in SimCity 4. For some reason [the link] was removed in a revision... -SharkD 19:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see it was moved to the Trimetric Projection article. -SharkD 07:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Usage examples
We could use some example images of this perspective being used in engineering drafting. I know I used it in high school. -SharkD 06:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Graphical projection widget
The 'See also' list was replaced with a 'Graphical projection' table. How do you create those? -SharkD 01:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nevermind I figured it out. -SharkD 02:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a little crowded now
The addition of the two new 3D rendered images is becoming problematic. Are there any more suggestions to remove certain images and consider new arrangements? In terms of the former, I'm thinking about removing the pixel art TV (now that it's devoid of any real purpose after the redundant caption is gone) and one of the two game screenshots. ╫ ２５ ◀RingADing▶  16:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC) ╫

 * The crowding will be diminished if the rotation images are cropped. If SharkD doesn't do it, then I'll do it myself in a day or two, per User_talk:SharkD (losslessly, of course) -- AnonMoos 17:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I cropped the images so that they're square. Go ahead and reduce the size of the thumbnails if you need to (though it might become difficult to read the angle measurements). I'd just as well keep the TV image. -SharkD 23:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I cropped them further from 600x600 to 464x432 (which was more what I originally had in mind), and correspondingly reduced the width of the thumbnails by a ratio of 464/600 (or from 256 to 198 pixels). AnonMoos 02:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the "isometric" games section should be reduced to a stub and moved to the dimetric or axonometric projection articles? That would reduce crowding, as there's not much over there at the moment. -SharkD 23:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Reason for having both images in the article
It's hard to compare true isometric projection with video-game quasi-"isometric" projection unless you have both of them in there. Maybe they should be set side by side (though I'm not sure exactly where the best place for that would be...). AnonMoos 14:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I created a composite image consisting of the two images placed side by side to make comparison easier. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to do this losslessly. The resulting image is a little more grainy than the originals. SharkD (talk) 05:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Image update
I updated the SVG image showing the isometric cube. Wikipedia's SVGtoPNG converter is a bit buggy, so there are errors introduced that aren't in the source file. Hopefully, WP will update their converter sometime in the near future. -SharkD 15:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's been over a year, and Wikipedia's converter is still buggy. I tried loading the image in InkScape to see if I could convert the arrowheads to paths, but InkScape is buggy too. Adobe's viewer is still the only one that displays the image properly. Unfortunately, my SVG skills are too rusty to try and recreate the arrowheads by hand in a way that works for all viewers/editors. SharkD (talk) 05:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Listing games that are not isometric
There's some disagreement as to whether the game Fallout is isometric or not, and whether it should be listed. Though it is in fact trimetric, it is referred to frequently as isometric. Also, only two games in the list are really isometric. What people really mean when they say "isometric" is that a game uses orthographic projection--which Fallout certainly does. Should we then not include all the rest? SharkD 23:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Computer desktop section
I consider computer desktop icons as being pixel art; therefore, I think that section is redundant and should be removed.SharkD 17:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ultima
I'm having trouble figuring out what form of graphical projection is used in parts of the Ultima series (starting with Ultima VI). Is it dimetric? SharkD 16:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I figured out it's axiometric projection. SharkD 03:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

List of notable games too long
I think the list of notable iso games is too long and would like to discuss which games should be removed. SharkD 21:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I went through all the articles listed, here's my opinion:

 * Amaurote doesn't seem to be isometric in any kind, so I removed it.
 * Solstice seems not to be very notable, only one MobyGames reference in the article.
 * Crusader seems to have no independent references at all.
 * Ultima Online seems to use some kind of oblique projection, not dimetric (i.e. look at the screenshots in the article, the tiles look like top-down, just with walls added - of course as this article says, the term is blurred and everyone would still say isometric).
 * Fallout is clearly trimetric and not isometric.
 * The Commandos article is just a stub (?) so no reason to include.
 * Habbo Hotel has lots of references, but non seems an independent review, so I'd say it's also not notable enough to mention here as example of a notable isometric game.
 * Virtual Magic Kingdom has currently four of those "boxes", so we should not link to it as notable game either.
 * So I would remove all of those mentioned above. --Allefant 11:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, I think Diablo should be added as a quite notable isometric game, but we could remove even more less notable ones instead. --Allefant 11:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Go ahead with the changes. SharkD 12:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To add my two cents, loads of modern games use isometric projection in fairly non-groundbreaking ways, and it's not easy to reasonably separate notable ones from less notable ones. So, I'd suggest trimming the list to pioneering games (1980s; the list is already trimmed to the most notable of these) and those modern titles (post-1990) that best illustrate particular genres (sim games, platformers, adventure games, RPGs, MMOGs).  A short list of ~5 or so would be good here.  SimCity 2000 and Civilization II are two obvious, groundbreaking titles to my mind, but I'm not very au fait with modern isometric titles.  Cheers, --Plumbago 12:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, pioneering aspect is probably a good criteria. I'd remove Transport Tycoon as the screenshot in its article looks just like SimCity 2000, but it was released 2 years later. But I don't really know about the notability of modern games either - Cadaver seems notable to me as it likely was the first to use a z-buffer or some other technique to allow arbitrary 3D positioning of all objects (would be hard finding an independent reference for this though). --Allefant 12:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm, maybe instead of a mere list, we should have a section describing some kind of history of isometric games by its notable examples. A lot more work, especially as it requires finding references for the notability of each cited example - but should stop everyone inserting their favorite games.. (hm, and no, I don't think I'd be up to this currently myself) --Allefant 22:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

 * This is a good idea but, you're right, it'd be quite a bit of work. It may also be difficult to single out particular advances in isometric gaming and then attribute these to individual titles.  However, since we've already suggested thinning out the existing list in a similar manner, that's not specific to your suggestion.  To a first approximation, perhaps we should get the list thinned, and then worry about how best to articulate advances?  It's a lazy solution, I know.  --Plumbago 07:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough to write such a section. SharkD 01:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems it didn't prove to be a big problem, but still, with quite some delay, I've now attempted to do the above. If it's to stay, I'll also try to find references for the last paragraph and add fair use rationales for the two images. Some of the games mentioned are of course arbitrary choices so could be removed or replaced with better ones. And if someone really thinks more games need to be mentioned, then they could be added in a similar style showing why they should be mentioned. I think it's better than just a list in any case. --Allefant (talk) 14:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good work! Maybe some mention should be made of isometric games that mix "true 3D" with bitmapped sprites. The Sims, for instance, uses a mix of sprites and 3D polygonal data. Other examples that I can think of are Prelude to Darkness and UFO: Alien Invasion (which has a special "orthographic" mode), though these latter two games aren't very notable (they're both freeware). SharkD (talk) 03:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia isometric cube 3.jpg is NOT isometric
I notice that this 3D rendered image (and the similar one in videogames.) is NOT isometric. All the lines clearly converge to vanishing points. This seems important and should be noted somehow. Perhaps a corresponding image could be made that actually is isometric. (Although this might be tricky to do in a 3D rendering program.) Algr 09:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The image itself is not supposed to be isometric. It's supposed to demonstrate how to orient the camera when capturing an isometric image. SharkD 09:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I tried to explain the pictures better, for those who don't read the article text but just the pictures, like I do myself often with other articles :) Probably it could be formulated more elegantly. --Allefant 11:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "The blue vector points towards the camera position which would result in an isometric view of the cube when looking towards the origin." I think this is still a problem.  A 3D renderer would never give you an isometric image, no matter where you put the camera.   Unless there is a specific "isometric mode" there would always be vanishing points, and objects would always grow as they approached the camera. Algr 19:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The text just besides the picture says "starting from an orthographic projection relative to an object's face" - so it should be clear we do not use any perspective projection. But of course, there might be a way to formulate this more clear.. --Allefant 20:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, you could theoretically achieve an isometric projection in a 3D renderer by placing the camera infinitely far away and increasing the focal length (e.g., zooming) to an infinite amount. Check out this animation of Escher's Waterfall as an example of a camera placed at a very great distance, with a very great focal length (here is the text description of the animation). This doesn't apply to all forms of parallel projection, though. E.g., you can never achieve oblique projection using just a camera. SharkD (talk) 07:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I found this image of Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn which appears to be composed of computer rendered sprites. The projection used in the game is oblique projection; I'm not sure what tricks they used to manage this. SharkD (talk) 05:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, both OpenGL and Direct3D can do orthographic and oblique projections, so games have it easy just rendering in either (no idea what UO uses, might be hand-drawn?) --Allefant (talk) 18:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Speculation regarding the mistaken use of "isometric" in computer and video games
I wonder where and when this term began to be mistakenly applied to video games. I believe this is due to the fact that isometric projection is taught in introductory drafting courses in high school. Computer programmers probably took such courses and never learned of the existence of dimetric and trimetric projection. Note that dimetric and trimetric projection aren't taught in these courses, as they're much harder to construct using only a compass and straightedge. In my personal experience, we even played SimCity 2000 [edit] in the classroom once our assignments were completed. Therefore, the two are always linked, in my mind. SharkD (talk) 07:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is interesting indeed. I just looked at some references at the Knight Lore page, and magazines in 1985 who reviewed the game titled it "3D", but not yet "isometric". No time to look for more right now. --Allefant (talk) 15:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Isometric looking 3D
As a kind of legacy of the use of isometric projection in video games, I think it may also be worth mentioning games that use true 3D graphics but give a view that looks like an isometric one; although with perspective and possible rotation available. Typical of games, especially early 3D games, that are tile based and wanted to use 3D but stick with a familiar view. Games like Dark Savior, Civilization IV, Vandal Hearts, off the top of my head although I'm sure there must be more.Carlwev (talk) 10:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Whether a game uses hardware-accelerated 3D graphics or 2D tiles makes no difference with regard to whether the game can be described as "isometric". What matters is whether the game uses a perspective camera or a parallel one. After all, many 2D sprites are themselves rendered in 3D software packages, such as 3D Studio Max. The article also already mentions some games that use perspective projection, but try to emulate the old isometric view by adjusting the camera's placement so that it lies farther away. This makes sense, since the definition of a parallel camera is that it lies infinitely far away and has infinite zoom. Maybe this section could be fleshed out more. SharkD (talk) 21:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

History
This image caught my attention Although isometric projection appears to be used more recently, how much was it used in the past, and what for? and what was the first known use? This image from the 15th century looks Isometric. Carlwev (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I assume it would actually be dimetric (or possbly trimetric). There's a website out there somewhere that estimated the camera rotation angles of traditional Chinese ink drawings and compared them with the camera rotation angles of isometric projection, but I didn't bookmark it, sorry... AnonMoos (talk) 22:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Just measure it with a standard ruler: the picture to the right is 2:1 dimetric. Quote from : "There's another and more important reason to apply the 2:1 ratio besides the one dealing with the optical appearance: it makes the design of structures parallel to the ground plane a lot easier and oftentimes saves much time in calculating the proper lengths without really affecting the optical impression too much." -- Seems to me that this is the case in such drawings as well. Gulliveig (talk) 04:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've noticed this as well. It's definitely worth a mention. I think a few years ago I did a search for sources on the subject (i.e. articles which mentioned Eastern drawings and "isometric"), but couldn't find anything. In the West (such as in medieval religious illustrations) I think oblique projection was more common. Someone with a degree in art history might know more. SharkD (talk) 21:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Fallout and SimCity 4
I've been re-reading the article, and think that Fallout and SimCity 4 may in fact use a 2:1 pixel ratio despite being trimetric. Closer examination of the game sprites (in the case of Fallout; IIRC SimCity 4 doesn't use sprites) might be warranted. SharkD (talk) 22:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Asymmetric view
The docs for the video game FATE describe the perspective it uses as "Asymmetric view". The view is one where a perspective camera is placed somewhat distant, so that it "feels" sort of like the traditional "isometric" view. I think this is a neat term, as it highlights the differences between it and isometric perspective, while still remaining a single word (so that it's easy to remember). SharkD (talk) 07:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Baldur's Gate
Not sure whether this is worth mentioning in the article, but the Baldur's Gate series and The Temple of Elemental Evil use a rotation angle of 45 degrees from the horizontal instead of 35.264 degrees or 30 degrees. SharkD (talk) 00:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Sections with broad scope
The "History" and "Limitations..." sections could just as well go into Parallel projection or Axonometric projection, as the material that is covered applies nearly equally to them as well. SharkD  Talk  08:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Image display
The way the article is set up now, the images are all displayed at a rather small size (instead of standard 220px thumbnail view). AnonMoos (talk) 13:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

It's an optical-grinding engine, not an optimal-grinding engine
The caption on the first figure in the "History and limitations" section should state the the machine is an optical-grinding engine, not an optimal-grinding engine. Yes, the file name ("Optimal-grinding engine model.jpg") says it's an optimal-grinding engine, but the clearly states: "Optical-grinding engine model. This is perhaps the first machine drawing rendered in 30 degrees isometric." Also of note is that the original source uses "optical", not "optimal" (noted in the edit history for the image).

Oddly, this was fixed at one point but someone changed it back, evidently without stopping to consider what exactly an optimal-grinding engine would do (although I suppose some might consider "grind optimally" to be a plausible answer). 69.77.169.106 (talk) 19:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Example images
I think there is ...something wrong... with these images. Firstly, the axes are not labeled, so one cannot tell which is the x-axis, which is the y-axis, etc. Usually the x-axis is red, the y-axis is green and the z-axis is blue. Secondly, shouldn't you rotate first around the vertical axis by 45° and then the horizontal axis by arctan $1/undefined$? These images seem to do things in the wrong order. SharkD  Talk  13:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't even remember cropping those. They're certainly less clear than the images with a blue arrow at a cube vertex... AnonMoos (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Isometric graphics in video games and pixel art which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:46, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

"Isometric perspective" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Isometric_perspective&redirect=no Isometric perspective] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 13:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Isometric projection


text:
Talk:Body Worlds

Neutrality?
This article quotes an "ethical analysis" by a professor at Baylor, a Baptist university; the article states that this analysis compared the exhibit to pornography. In my opinion, if the article is to reference this analysis at all, it should appear along with the other religious opinions and the university's religious affiliation should be clearly stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.153.9 (talk) 14:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, after all the firm control universities exercise over the statements of tenured faculty is well-known. Yappy2bhere (talk) 17:23, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Controversy
Does anyone have any information on the California Science Center's investigation? There should be a link or a source for that. --RedViking 22:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

added Tigriscuniculus (talk) 14:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternative computer simulation
Proponents for the increased respect and courtesey for the human body point out that the inventors went ahead with the institute without due consideration to alternative non intrusive methods of anatomy illustration such as digital computer rendered simulation. Computer simulation of the human body would allow much closer and detailed analysis of the human body. Zoom in, see through and body position maneuverability could allow a digitally simulated model much greater detail and content than a physical model ever could. Redistributing the simulations in the form of software over the internet, could further accomplish a broader viewer base and through a much more flexible means without ever requiring the use of bodies. Because of the versatility of software and the development of computer technology today, a virtual model is not only vastly supperior and more available to viewers world wide, but also an opportunity for further scientific development. The lack of a free, open source, world wide available simulation while continuation of plastination, is not only unscientific, but also disrespectfull to the human body.

Wow, what a stupid kneejerk response. Bodies are complex and variable, and the differences are informative and interesting. No computer program could demonstrate the differences without requiring massive numbers of dissections, which are usually only useful for months at a time, rather than the years that the plastination exhibits are good for. If you wish to see the variability in the SMA (superior mesenteric artery) from a scientific interest, the plastinized bodies are invaluable; likewise if your knowledge of the body is not sophisticated enough to know that such differences exist, you may find yourself impressed and overawed by seeing them in situ. Either way, your appreciation will be much higher in viewing the exhibit than it would be in seeing a computer program. That's why medical schools still include cadaver labs, despite the many excellent atlases that are currently available.216.98.236.14 18:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Maybe this is not the place to have comments like this, after all wikipedia is not about whether you approve of a subject or not. However, I have seen the Body Worlds exhibition in London and thought it was wonderful and fascinating and there was nothing undignified about it at all. I really cannot understand the responses of people such as the first writer above. And is the dead person really that bothered with what happens to their remains after death? It seems to be something that bothers the living more than the dead. Godfinger 15:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

=
==================================

Hey, just saw this exhibition yesterday... pretty incredible stuff. So anyway, where can we index this in Wikipedia?

(text copied from my talk page)

Hi, thanks for writing up the Body Worlds exhibits. I was wondering why you put some of the titles in parentheses? Maybe that should be explained. Cheers, AxelBoldt 19:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The titles in parentheses were ones where I had no idea what the real name was, and just wrote a descriptive term. If anyone knows the actual names of the works, they're more than welcome to insert them. --NeuronExMachina 04:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

added titles from Official web sites Tigriscuniculus (talk) 14:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know if this exhibit will be visiting Vancouver?

Does anyone know if this exhibit is in NY? I thought I say an ad for the exhibition to be in NY in February.

I think something might need to be added to the section about the exhibit of the pregnant woman. I have seen the exhibition (in Munich) and this was one of two exhibits I had a real ethical problem with. If the woman had really died a natural death of a terminal illness (as is apparently claimed by Hagens, though I don't remember seeing any info to that effect at the exhibition), surely the child could have been saved at eight months gestation. Why would the mother agree to the foetus' inclusion when it could have lived? I think it's much more likely that she was killed in a car accident or similar. Does anyone have any other info on this, or on the origin of any of the bodies?--Dub8lad1 13:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just saw the exhibit today (in St. Paul). They had a sign that said the woman had a terminal illness, and that the baby could not be saved.  No further details were given (and that was the most detail given about ANY of the exhibits).  --Rehcsif 02:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This line should probably be removed.
"However, Von Hagens does not make the same claim for all bodies prepared by his plastination institute, only the ones exhibited in Body Worlds."

Unless there is any facts or truth that this claim is based on then it is pointless and implies strongly that the Von Hagens may be involved in such activities.

As such, such loaded speculation has no place in a factual article.

 * I disagree. Controversy remains on the legitimacy of the cadavers sourced from China and Kyrgyzstan. The fact that Von Hagens only states that those used in the Body Worlds exhibits were sourced legitimately says nothing about whether the bodies used by his Institute for Plastination are similarly legitimate. Without that line in the article the implication is that there is no longer a controversy, which is not the case. -- Hux 09:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

More iformation about this can be found at http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/exhibitions/original_copycat.html

Actually, this so called speculative statement appeart to be true. An article writen by Von Hagens and served in PDF form from the Body Worlds official site states that they accept corpses that have not given permission. Unclaimed bodies are also accepted from government agencies such as the Social Welfare Office.

Here is the direct link: http://www.koerperwelten.de/Downloads/AnatomyandPlastination.pdf

(If you go to http://www.koerperwelten.de/ you'll see the Body Works site. And, after going to bodyworlds.com and doing a search, koerperwelten.de is the address that comes up in the navigation bar and in the search links. It's the official site.)

Profit
Does anyone know if this is a for-profit exhibit? I know that the competing exhibits are for-profit (Premier Exhibitions Inc).
 * It is. (I worked for one of the venues...) LordAmeth 22:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I scoured bodyworlds.com and can find nothing that claims they are non-profit or not for profit.

You have to be inhuman to violate corpses this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.42 (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not the discussion here. 121.214.177.225 (talk) 07:22, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

BEAUTIFUL AND MOVING
I just saw this exhibit in Phoenix. It was absolutely amazing. I must respectfully disagree with the idea that a computer program is superior to real plastinated bodies for anatomical education. The way that whole specimens are posed is artful and breathtaking. I was nearly moved to tears by the praying man. Being able to examine the inner parts of the body so closely (most bodies are not enclosed in glass) was invaluable you just can't get that sort of a spatial understanding for function and position in a two dimentional medium. I also found it superior to embalmmed cadavers, at least to the lay person as there is no odor or decay. I would encourage anyone with actual interest in the exhibit, the process, and anatomical education in general to check out their web site. I can see why the donor list has grown so much. What a wonderful way to give back. 72.201.244.17 02:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)Joolz

Not only is plastination superior to embalmed cadaveric dissections in longevity and smell, but it allows non-manual dissection, which provides much higher levels of detail. The level of detail allowed is extraordinary.216.98.236.14 18:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed link
I have removed the following from the External links:
 * "The Universe Within" caused a disgusted public to see the result of sophomoric understanding of the plastination process, when bodies started oozing fluid during a San Francisco show": San Francisco Chronicle

I have two concerns. First, this link is not directly related to Body Worlds, but rather another unrelated (if inspired) display. Second, the wording used to describe the link violates WP:NPOV in that it casts judgement on Universe Within and those who created it, which could be seen to violate WP:BLP. 23skidoo 23:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Photo legality?
I'm curious as to the legality of the photos contained in this article.

New photos included - these are official pics given with permsission and copyright. The exhibitor prevents photos and film being taken inside the exhibit to discourage inappropriate or disrespectful images being taken & distributed. Body Worlds also limits copyright carefully, to restrain copycats from using BW images to advertise their own work, and to avoid copycat images being used to illustrate articles about BW. Tigriscuniculus (talk) 14:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

While the images may be taken from Flickr accounts that specify they are free use, the exhibit itself bans photography. That means that the Flickr photos themselves are in violation of Body Worlds' copyright. Should they be removed, since they were taken without the copyright owner's permission? Ehurtley 18:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC) (P.S., I just went to the exhibit in Portland, OR, and thought it very enlightening.  I am not against the photos being on here, I am just worried about the legal aspects.)
 * If the ticket says "no photography" etc., then the image was taken in violation of a civil contract. However, that has nothing to do with copyrights.  If, on the other hand, the show's creator claims his works are art, then these photographs constitute a derivative of his art work, and publication would constitute a copyright violation.  Indeed, the show's creator has filed suits against a competitor on these grounds (copying the poses).  I don't know how the suits have turned out, though.  If the courts ruled these were works of art, then we should remove these images and find some fair use publicity photos to use in their place.  Rklawton 12:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Bodyworlds 3: Seville
The exhibition is currrently on display in this spanish city.

http://www.diariodesevilla.es/article/galeria/343235/exposicion/body/worlds/viaje/por/corazon/gunther/von/hagens.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.208.191.221 (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article is a mess, particularly the overview. Is this a consensus? Rabend (talk) 07:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Ontario Science Center October 9, 2009
I agree with Rabend above, needs a makeover! The Ontario Science Center is currently hosting "Body Worlds and the Story of the Heart" http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2009/22/c8620.html http://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/bodyworlds/default.asp Tim Riches, Brampton, Ontario (talk) 00:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome to it ... if you want to get hit with a COI notice from Themfromspace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pichiciago (talk • contribs) 13:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Non-neutral sourcing.
In at least five citations, the link points to bodyworlds.com, which is obviously not a reliable source. I suggest all these citations be replaced or removed, and any claims relying on them be omitted. In particular the claim "All whole body plastinates exhibited in Body Worlds come from donors who gave informed consent via a unique body donation program." relies on bodyworlds.com.

The article (and the bodyworlds.com website that it relies on) seems to contradict itself, when it says:

"The pre-natal and infant specimens in the exhibitions are obtained from morphological collections previously held by universities and medical institutions."

If there are any pre-natal or infant specimens, regardless of their source, they obviously weren't a result of informed consent from adults. Also, Body Worlds (and this article) is careful to use the term "whole body". Does not mean some parts of the human body are on display, despite a lack of informed consent?

Even when we properly source this article, we need to clearly attribute any contentious statement, in the body of the article. We should not give claims by BodyWorlds as facts. --Rob (talk) 23:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Agreed. The sourcing is inadequate when key statements are backed by references to an interested party's website. And the wording is convoluted in places and ways in which Wikipedians strive to be clear. Drakkenfyre (talk) 06:48, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

 * "And the wording is convoluted..." Hilarious! Yappy2bhere (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Scientific content
It looks as though someone deleted this section and I think that it would be important to reinstate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.15.92.101 (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Consent: Contradictory statements

 * Bodies from deceased persons who did not give consent ... have never been used in a Body Worlds exhibition.

 * von Hagens countered that he did not know the origin of the bodies, and returned seven disputed cadavers to China.

If even he doesn't know the source of all his corpses how can Wikipedia state as fact that no non-consenting people's remains were used?

Also, the first sentence I quote has a citation but that citation is a decade-old PDF written by von Hagens himself. That's probably not a very neutral source. --holizz (talk) 15:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Proposing a "See also" section
I don't see a "See also" section attached to this article(?) Clearly plastination relates to other topics (such as embalming and mummification) that aren't touched upon in the article. Unless there are objections, I will be adding a "See also" section shortly – Down time (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:45, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Body Worlds


text:
Scarface

Scarface may refer to:

Gangster-related

 * Scarface (novel), a novel by Armitage Trail, loosely based on Capone's rise to power
 * Scarface (1932 film), a film starring Paul Muni
 * Scarface (1983 film), a remake starring Al Pacino
 * Scarface (soundtrack), a soundtrack for the 1983 film
 * "Scarface (Push It to the Limit)", a 1983 song from the Scarface soundtrack
 * Scarface: Money. Power. Respect., a 2006 PlayStation Portable game
 * Scarface: The World Is Yours, a 2006 video game
 * Scarface (iOS game), a 2012 role-playing iOS game

Characters

 * Scarface (comics) or Ventriloquist, an enemy of Batman
 * Scarface (Kinnikuman), a character in Kinnikuman Nisei
 * Scarface, a character in The Animals of Farthing Wood
 * Scarface, a character in Mega Man X: Command Mission
 * Scarface, a character in Predator: Concrete Jungle
 * Scarface or Vy Low, a character in Shadow Skill
 * Scarface, a character in Smash TV
 * Scarface One, a character in Ace Combat 2
 * Tony Montana, the protagonist of Scarface (1983) and Scarface: The World Is Yours, nicknamed "Scarface"

Other uses

 * Scarface (rapper) (born 1970), American, member of the Geto Boys
 * Scarface, nickname of José Aldo (born 1986), Brazilian mixed martial artist
 * Scarface (lion)

title: Scarface


text:
Rusted Root

Rusted Root is an American worldbeat rock band formed in 1990 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania by singer-guitarist Michael Glabicki, bassist Patrick Norman and percussionist Liz Berlin. The band got its start as the house band playing a weekly gig in Jack's Back Room on Pittsburgh's South Side. The band achieved fame in 1994 with its platinum-selling album When I Woke, which included the hit single "Send Me on My Way". The song has been featured prominently in many films and commercials. Rusted Root has sold more than three million albums, and is currently on hiatus. After releasing The Movement in 2012 and touring through 2015, the band went on an indefinite hiatus, with principal songwriter and vocalist Michael Glabicki forming the group Uprooted with former members of Rusted Root and continuing to tour with that group into the early 2020s.

Musical style and influences
The band's style is a fusion of acoustic, rock, world and other styles of music, with a strong percussion section that draws from African, Latin American, Indian and Native American influences. Michael Glabicki has acknowledged the popular success of Peter Gabriel's 1986 album So as an influence on his decision to incorporate worldbeat into his own music. The band's lyrical content varies but often talks about Christianity and Judaism. The group's 2012 album, The Movement, was fan funded.

Current members

 * Michael Glabicki – lead vocals, guitar, harmonica, mandolin (1990–present)
 * Patrick Norman – bass guitar, backing vocals, percussion
 * Liz Berlin – vocals, percussion

Past members

 * Jim Donovan – drums, percussion (1990–2002)
 * Jenn Wertz – backing vocals, percussion (1990–2008)

Live albums

 * Rusted Root Live (2004)

Compilations

 * The Best of Rusted Root: 20th Century Masters - The Millennium Collection (2005)

Extended plays

 * Rusted Root (1990)
 * Christ Monkey (1991)
 * Live (1995)
 * Evil Ways (1996)
 * Airplane (1998)

title: Rusted Root


text:
Uvula

The uvula (: uvulas or uvulae), also known as the palatine uvula or staphyle, is a conic projection from the back edge of the middle of the soft palate, composed of connective tissue containing a number of racemose glands, and some muscular fibers. It also contains many serous glands, which produce thin saliva. It is only found in humans.

Muscle
The muscular part of the uvula (musculus uvulae) shortens and broadens the uvula. This changes the contour of the posterior part of the soft palate. This change in contour allows the soft palate to adapt closely to the posterior pharyngeal wall to help close the nasopharynx during swallowing.

Its muscles are controlled by the pharyngeal branch of the vagus nerve.

Variation
A bifid or bifurcated uvula is a split or cleft uvula. Newborns with cleft palate often also have a split uvula. The bifid uvula results from incomplete fusion of the palatine shelves but it is considered only a slight form of clefting. Bifid uvulas have less muscle in them than a normal uvula, which may cause recurring problems with middle ear infections. While swallowing, the soft palate is pushed backwards, preventing food and drink from entering the nasal cavity. If the soft palate cannot touch the back of the throat while swallowing, food and drink can enter the nasal cavity. Splitting of the uvula occurs infrequently but is the most common form of mouth and nose area cleavage among newborns. Bifid uvula occurs in about 2% of the general population, although some populations may have a high incidence, such as Native Americans who have a 10% rate.

Bifid uvula is a common symptom of the rare genetic syndrome Loeys–Dietz syndrome, which is associated with an increased risk of aortic aneurysm.

Function
During swallowing, the soft palate and the uvula move together to close off the nasopharynx, and prevent food from entering the nasal cavity.

It has also been proposed that the abundant amount of thin saliva produced by the uvula serves to keep the throat well lubricated.

It has a function in speech as well. In many languages, a range of consonant sounds, known as uvular consonants, are articulated by creating a constriction of airflow between the uvula and the back of the tongue. The voiced uvular trill, written in the International Phonetic Alphabet, is one example; it is used in French, Arabic and Hebrew, among other languages. It has been suggested that the uvula is an accessory speech organ.

Stimulation of the uvula also causes the gag reflex to initiate. This is often a problem for people with uvula piercings, and a common method of inducing vomiting. It also acts as a food sensor/guard helping breathing in between mouth fulls, stopping small pieces of food being inhaled causing choking

Inflammation
At times, the mucous membrane around the uvula may swell, causing the uvula to expand 3–5 times its normal size. This condition is known as uvulitis. When the uvula touches the throat or tongue, it can cause sensations like gagging or choking, although there is no foreign matter present. This can cause problems with breathing, talking, and eating.

There are many theories about what causes the uvula to swell, including dehydration (e.g. from arid weather); excessive smoking or other inhaled irritants; snoring; allergic reaction; or a viral or bacterial infection. An aphthous ulcer which has formed on the uvula can also cause swelling and discomfort.

If the swelling is caused by dehydration, drinking fluids may improve the condition. If the cause is a bacterial infection, gargling salt water may help. However, it can also be a sign of other problems. Some people with a history of recurring uvulitis carry an epinephrine autoinjector to counteract symptoms of an attack. A swollen uvula is not normally life-threatening and subsides in a short time, typically within a day.

Snoring and sleep apnea
The uvula can also contribute to snoring or heavy breathing during sleep; having an elongated uvula can cause vibrations that lead to snoring. In some cases this can lead to sleep apnea, which may be treated by removal of the uvula or part of it if necessary, an operation known as uvulopalatopharyngoplasty (commonly referred to as UPPP, or UP3). However, this operation can also cause sleep apnea if scar tissue forms and the airspace in the velopharynx is decreased. The success of UPPP as a treatment for sleep apnea is unknown, but some research has shown 40–60% effectiveness in reducing symptoms. Typically apnea subsides for the short term, but returns over the medium to long term, and sometimes is worse than it was before the UPPP.

Velopharyngeal insufficiency
In a small number of people, the uvula does not close properly against the back of the throat, causing a condition known as velopharyngeal insufficiency. This causes "nasal" (or more properly "hyper-nasal") speech, where extra air comes down the nose, and the speaker is unable to say certain consonants, such as pronouncing 'b' like 'm'.

Nasal regurgitation
During swallowing, the soft palate and the uvula move superiorly to close off the nasopharynx, preventing food from entering the nasal cavity. When this process fails, the result is called nasal regurgitation. It is common in people with VPI, the myositides, and neuromuscular disease. Regurgitation of fluids in this way may also occur if a particularly high volume of liquid is regurgitated, or during vigorous coughing, for example being caused by the accidental inhalation of water. Due to the action of coughing preventing the uvula from blocking the nasopharynx, liquid may be expelled back through the nose.

Society and culture
In some parts of Africa, including Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea, the uvula or a section of it is ritually removed by a traditional healer. In this case, the uvula may be noticeably shortened. It is not thought to contribute to velopharyngeal inadequacy, except in cases where the tonsils have also been removed.

Etymology
In Latin, ūvula means "little grape", the diminutive form of ūva "grape" (of unknown origin). A swollen uvula was called ūva.

title: Uvula


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Longwave

In radio, longwave, long wave or long-wave, and commonly abbreviated LW, refers to parts of the radio spectrum with wavelengths longer than what was originally called the medium-wave broadcasting band. The term is historic, dating from the early 20th century, when the radio spectrum was considered to consist of longwave (LW), medium-wave (MW), and short-wave (SW) radio bands. Most modern radio systems and devices use wavelengths which would then have been considered 'ultra-short'.

In contemporary usage, the term longwave is not defined precisely, and its intended meaning varies. It may be used for radio wavelengths longer than 1,000 m i.e. frequencies up to 300 kilohertz (kHz), including the International Telecommunication Union's (ITU's) low frequency (LF, 30–300 kHz) and very low frequency (VLF, 3–30 kHz) bands. Sometimes the upper limit is taken to be higher than 300 kHz, but not above the start of the medium wave broadcast band at 520 kHz.

In Europe, Africa, and large parts of Asia (International Telecommunication Union Region 1), where a range of frequencies between 148.5 and 283.5 kHz is used for AM broadcasting in addition to the medium-wave band, the term longwave usually refers specifically to this broadcasting band, which falls wholly within the low frequency band of the radio spectrum (30–300 kHz). The "Longwave Club of America" (United States) is interested in "frequencies below the AM broadcast band" (i.e., all frequencies below 520 kHz).

Propagation
Because of their long wavelength, radio waves in this frequency range can diffract over obstacles like mountain ranges and travel beyond the horizon, following the contour of the Earth. This mode of propagation, called ground wave, is the main mode in the longwave band. The attenuation of signal strength with distance by absorption in the ground is lower than at higher frequencies, and falls with frequency. Low frequency ground waves can be received up to 2000 km from the transmitting antenna. Very low frequency waves below 30 kHz can be used to communicate at transcontinental distances, can penetrate saltwater to depths of hundreds of feet, and are used by the military to communicate with submerged submarines.

Low frequency waves can also occasionally travel long distances by reflecting from the ionosphere (the actual mechanism is one of refraction), although this method, called skywave or "skip" propagation, is not as common as at higher frequencies. Reflection occurs at the ionospheric E layer or F layers. Skywave signals can be detected at distances exceeding 300 km from the transmitting antenna.

Non-directional beacons
Non-directional beacons transmit continuously for the benefit of radio direction finders in marine and aeronautical navigation. They identify themselves by a callsign in Morse code. They can occupy any frequency in the range 190–1750 kHz. In North America, they occupy 190–535 kHz. In ITU Region 1 the lower limit is 280 kHz.

Time signals
There are institutional broadcast stations in the range that transmit coded time signals to radio clocks. For example:
 * WWVB in Colorado, United States, on 60 kHz, 70 kW ERP
 * DCF77 in Frankfurt, Germany, on 77.5 kHz, 50 kW
 * JJY in Japan, on 40 & 60 kHz, 50 kW
 * RBU 66.66 kHz in Taldom transmitter, Russia, 10 kW
 * BPC in Shangqiu, China, 68.5 kHz, 90 kW
 * MSF time and 60 kHz frequency standard transmitted from Anthorn in the UK, 17 kW ERP.
 * ALS162 from Allouis, France, on 162 kHz, 800 kW

Radio-controlled clocks receive their time calibration signals with built-in long-wave receivers. They use long-wave, rather than short-wave or medium-wave, because long-wave signals from the transmitter to the receiver always travel along the same direct path across the surface of the Earth, so the time delay correction for the signal travel time from the transmitting station to the receiver is always the same for any one receiving location.

Longwaves travel by groundwaves that hug the surface of the Earth, unlike mediumwaves and shortwaves. Those higher-frequency signals do not follow the surface of the Earth beyond a few kilometers, but can travel as skywaves, 'bouncing' off different layers of the ionosphere at different times of day. These different propagation paths can make the time lag different for every signal received. The delay between when the long-wave signal was sent from the transmitter (when the coded time was correct) and when the signal is received by the clock (when the coded time is slightly late) depends on the overland distance between the clock and the transmitter and the speed of light through the air, which is also very nearly constant. Since the time lag is essentially the same, a single constant shift forward from the time coded in the signal can compensate for all long-wave signals received at any one location from the same time signal station.

Submarine communication
The militaries of the United Kingdom, Russian Federation, United States, Germany, India and Sweden use frequencies below 50 kHz to communicate with submerged submarines.

Amateur radio
In the ITU Radio Regulations the band 135.7–137.8 kHz is allocated (on a secondary basis) to Amateur radio worldwide, subject to a power limit of 1 watt EIRP. Many countries' regulators license amateurs to use it.

LowFER
In North America during the 1970s, the frequencies 167, 179, and 191 kHz were assigned to the short-lived Public Emergency Radio of the United States.

Nowadays, in the United States, Part 15 of FCC regulations allow unlicensed use of the 160–190 kHz band a transmitter / amplifier output power to the antenna of at most 1 watt, with an antenna at most 15 meters (49 feet) high; this is called Low Frequency Experimental Radio (LowFER). The 190–435 kHz band is used for navigational beacons.

Frequencies from 472–479 kHz are available to licensed amateurs as the new 630 m band, part of the now-defunct maritime band, but this is often considered a medium wave sub-band.

Historic
Swedish station SAQ, located at the Varberg Radio Station facility in Grimeton, is the last remaining operational Alexanderson alternator long-wave transmitter. Although the station ended regular service in 1996, it has been maintained as a World Heritage Site, and makes at least two demonstration transmissions yearly, on 17.2 kHz.

Broadcasting
Longwave is used for broadcasting only within ITU Region 1. The long-wave broadcasters are located in Europe, North Africa and Mongolia.

Typically, a larger geographic area can be covered by a long-wave broadcast transmitter compared to a medium-wave one. This is because ground-wave propagation suffers less attenuation due to ground conductivity at lower frequencies.

Many countries have stopped using LW for broadcasting because of low audience figures, a lack of LW on new consumer receivers, increasing interference levels, the energy inefficiency of AM and high electricity costs at transmitters.

In 2014 and 2015 Russia closed all of its LW broadcast transmitters.

As of 2024 more than half of LW frequencies are unoccupied and some of the remaining services are scheduled for closure. BBC Radio 4 (UK) announced that it will stop LW broadcasts in 2024.

Carrier frequencies
With the adoption of the Geneva Frequency Plan of 1975, long-wave carrier frequencies are exact multiples of 9 kHz; ranging from 153 to 279 kHz. One exception was a French-language station, Europe 1 in Germany, which retained its prior channel spacing until the long-wave service was terminated in 2019. Other exceptions are all Mongolian transmitters, which are 2 kHz above the internationally recognized channels.

Until the 1970s, some long-wave stations in northern and eastern Europe and the Soviet Union operated on frequencies as high as 433 kHz.

Some radio broadcasters, for instance Droitwich transmitting station in the UK, derive their carrier frequencies from an atomic clock, allowing their use as frequency standards. Droitwich also broadcasts a low bit-rate data channel, using narrow-shift phase-shift keying of the carrier, for Radio Teleswitch Services.

Long-distance reception
Because long-wave signals can travel very long distances, some radio amateurs and shortwave listeners engage in an activity called DXing. DXers attempt to listen in to far away transmissions, and they will often send a reception report to the sending station to let them know where they were heard. After receiving a report, the sending station may mail the listener a QSL card to acknowledge this reception.

Reception of long-wave signals at distances in excess of 17000 km have been verified.

title: Longwave


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Truly, Madly, Deeply (film)

Truly, Madly, Deeply is a 1990 British fantasy drama film made for the BBC's Screen Two series, by BBC Films, Lionheart and Winston Pictures. The film, written and directed by Anthony Minghella, stars Juliet Stevenson and Alan Rickman.

Plot
Nina, an interpreter, is beside herself with grief at the recent death of her boyfriend, Jamie, a cellist. When she is on the verge of despair, Jamie reappears as a "ghost" and the couple are reunited. Nina is ecstatic.

But Jamie tells her about his days while she is at work, and one dialogue suggests she should embrace the life around her; one of these is about a memorial plaque in a park about a dead child and how parents who read it feel an immediate, compelling need to hug their children.

The returned Jamie also reminds her that he also irritated her, and as a ghost he manifests behaviours she'd have little patience for – turning up the central heating to stifling levels, moving furniture around and inviting back "ghost friends" to watch videos. This infuriates her, and their relationship deteriorates.

She meets Mark, a psychologist, to whom she is attracted, but she is unwilling to become involved with him because of Jamie's continued presence. Nina continues to love Jamie but is conflicted by his self-centered behaviour and ultimately wonders out loud, "Was it always like this?" Over Nina's objections, Jamie decides to leave to allow her to move on.

Towards the end of the film, Jamie watches Nina leave and one of his fellow ghosts asks, "Well?" and Jamie responds, "I think so... Yes." At this point the central conceit of the movie has become clear: Jamie came back specifically to help Nina get over him by tarnishing her idealized memory of him.

Production
Minghella said he wrote the script specifically as "a vehicle for [Stevenson] to express all her talents. She plays piano, likes dancing and has a quirky side to her which she usually can't express in the classical parts she is asked for." The title comes from a word game played by the main characters, in which they challenge each other to by turns repeat and add to a series of adverbs describing the depths of their mutual affection. The working title for the film was 'Cello', a reference not only to the cello within the film, but also to the Italian word 'cielo' for heaven. The film was made-for-TV, and produced in a 28-day shooting schedule for just $650,000.

It was shot on location in London and Bristol, with external shots in Highgate and on the South Bank. Stevenson said in 2012 that it was the favourite role of her career, commenting that the shoot was like a party.

Reception
The film was critically successful, winning several awards including a BAFTA for best original screenplay. (Alan Rickman and Juliet Stevenson received Best Actor and Best Actress, and Anthony Minghella Most Promising Newcomer, from the 1991 Evening Standard British Film Awards. ) It became a hit in the American arthouse circuit and Minghella subsequently was offered work by every major studio in Hollywood. The film's combination of serious themes with comic scenes, music and strong performances from the actors was noted by critics. Roger Ebert called it "a Ghost for grownups" (a common comparison because of the shared theme of lovers returning as ghosts and the concurrent releases of the films) and considered the film to reveal "some truths that are, the more you think about them, really pretty profound".

Review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes reports a 76% approval rating based on 37 reviews, with an average rating of 6.8/10. The website's critics consensus reads: "Largely thanks to charming performances from Alan Rickman and Juliet Stevenson, Truly Madly Deeply is an afterlife romance with infectious spirit." At Metacritic, the film has a weighted mean score of 72 out of 100 based on 16 reviews.

title: Truly, Madly, Deeply (film)