text:
Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)/Archive 5

 * Is this page:

 a continuation of a row over the contents of the page on the Irish Potato Famine or is th he page:

where JTD buries the quest for npov history.
 * Something is happening to which he is, as blind, as those who will not see.

I presume the above editing was done by some two year old who is playing with a computer. It certainly wasn't done by anyone with an elementary grasp of history. If they wrote the nonsense they placed in the page on a history exam, they'd be laughed out of the exam hall and told to try reading a book on history sometime. The laughable garbage has been removed and the correct factual stuff re-instated. JTD 19:27 Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)

Don't be such a childish prat, Two16. It called making room on the Talk page so people like you can whinge a bit more. If you are this paranoid, see a psychiatrist. JTD 23:53 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

I made very specific comments about the language used in one paragraph. Would you please address my comments here. If you think that those sentences are fine as they are written:including tone and diction, please state that unequivically here. Or make comments here and we can talk about it. I do not want you to make another general statement about genocide and general concensus; I want your comments about a very small subset of this article. How many times do can you refuse my first request, before the history of this page shows you to be a uncooperative crank.?

Two16 23:29 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)~

I have no problem with the language. No-one else but you and one other person has made a complaint. One person wrote 'bravo' about the page, another wrote 'excellent page. I have a series of emails congratulating me on the page. So as of now, you are a small minority. If you have a problem with history hat is simply your problem, not mine. Wiki is built on a consensus, and that consensus disagrees with you. I've spent more than enough time dealing with your 'complaints'. And if all you can contribute apart from ignorance of historic facts is personal abuse, then this conversation is at an end. JTD 23:57 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Ignore that idiot's abuse, JTD. I like the page too. It is very informative and well written. It matches the history I was taught. You get a couple of 'cranks' always complaining about something. Usually they don't know much. Just complain, complain, complain. When someone shows up the limits of how little they know, they throw their little tantrums. Two16 seems like a typical tantrum thrower! 159.134.168.165

count me in as part of the consensus on leaving the page the way it is. It is fine, as far as I can see. i wish all the other pages were as comprehensive. What is Two16's problem? The page is what I was taught as well. DuggieH

The content of this page does not need major work. It is factual, comprehensive and NPOV. The only thing I would do to improve it would be to write a better summary of the major points of the article and have that be the first section (this would the only section most people read anyway). Many of the more interesting facts are buried in this weighty article and anything above 10,000 bytes in size begins to loose people's interest (this article is about 32,000 bytes - and growing). In short; this article needs to be preceded by a smaller article and some of the sections should be spun-off into other articles (leaving summaries of those sections here). As interesting as I find this topic, I know many people who are not interested in wading through this level of detail and analysis. Having a better summary and much of the detail in other articles would improve the readability of this article and also allow people on older Mac browsers to edit this page without chopping off the last few sections (I'm pretty sure these browsers can only handle 30K of text in forms). I would also like to see more detail about the potato blight fungus itself - I don't recall seeing it mentioned. --mav 01:17 Jan 14, 2003 (UTC)

____________ FOLKS Lets try to get a handle on what is going on here. 23. 28 Jan 9 I posted a question about one count 'em one paragraph. I ended the post by saving :

That aside it is a pretty good article. Two16 23:28 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

My comments lay unaddressed through 5 re -requests for that information. Requests for links went unanwered three times and are still unanswered. I know stuff is easy to find on the internet : however, if one have information bookmarked it is a simple cut and paste.Saves time. Gives guidance. Helps colaboration. Instead of recieving cooperation I recieved lectures on all sorts of topic relating to Irish Decendants in America. I was treated tarred with a label and treated online as sterotype repeatedly. It is no less funny that it doesn't fit. I wrote and reitterated repeatedly:

I don't think the topic of genocide need nessessarily be broached in the   article. Just the facts. I think that a npov article might be able to be written without mentioning it at all. But I could be absolutely wrong about that.

This paragraph, which I am reposting for the fourth time due to its ongoing relevence to this talk page  , is a pretty clear statement about my own interpetation about the famine. Expressly: If I believed that the famine was a genocide how could an article be written npov which did not mention genocide at all? I have dialogued in good faith. I was given treatment that JTD probably desrved to go to other quarters.

Could messages be put onto my talk page which might explain how this turn of events took place. Two16 _____________ I would like to have comments on one sentence from any eyeballs watching. JTD has now weighed in specifically on the paragraph The  worst sentence  of the lot is:

 * Economic historians have concluded that not to continue the export could
 * have plunged the entire Irish economy into economic meltdown;

Does this sentence that someone had a choice to continue or not continue? If that is not the case, this sentence must be rewritten. Please comment about the sentence on this page. Two16 02:57 Jan 14, 2003 (UTC)

''The earlier part of this row, where Two16 claimed that his views were not been listened to and other contributors disagreed, is contained in Talk:Irish potato famine (archive 5)

Just to alert everyone, I have had to revert to a earlier version because
 * a historically dodgy diatribe was added in in place of the section on genocide.
 * the immediately earlier versions of this article could not be reverted to because they had been doctored to at best read as propagandistic gibberish, at worst as POV nonsense.

He is one example of this gobshite's vandalism. (His changes are in capitals)

''One issue which divides the perspective of Ireland on the history of the Famine from some BOGUS attitudes among the FAKE Irish - living abroad, is the claim, made by some of the latter, that the Famine amounted to genocide by the British against the Irish. Few Irish historians accept such a PATENTLY FALSE definition, which would imply a deliberate policy of extermination. While all are agreed that the British policies during the Famine, particularly those applied by the ministry of Lord John Russell, were somewhat misguided, perhaps ill-informed and frequently counter-productive, with Professor Joe Lee calling what happened a 'holocaust', [9] Irish, British and American historians of the cailbre of Professors F.S.L. Lyons, John A. Murphy, Joe Lee, Roy Foster, and James S. Donnelly, Jr, as well as historians Cecil Woodham-Smith, Peter Gray, Ruth Dudley Edwards and many others have long dismissed claims of A DELIBERATE POLICY OF genocide. PERHAPS MORE THAN A STRONG BELIEF.

Another twisted addition referred to the 'so-called' famine. ''

'''I have had to go back through a series of versions to find one not so doctored. That means that everyone else's work tonight on this article has been lost because some prat thought it funny to screw everyone around. '''

According to the records, the person responsible for this deliberate vandalism is STEVERTIGO .

So, everyone, feel free to ask the twat responsible what he thought he was doing. And maybe we should all keep an eye out on whatever else he contributes to. If he's tried vandaling here, he may well have tried vandalising other sites when he could not get his way. JTD 05:29 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

Sv - you need to explain yourself here. Have you gone mad? You marked the above as a minor edit stating in the edit summary "typo - overwhelming to overwhelmingly." The above is not minor and the edit summary looks like you were attempting deliberate deception in order to sneak-in your POV and very un-encyclopedic edits. If an anonymous IP had done that I would have banned that person's IP immediately. However, I know you can do better because I have seen you produce good work before. This issue, however, is probably way too close to your heart for you to be neutral on this topic at all. So I suggest you stay away from this subject and concentrate on topics where you will not be reverted into oblivion. --mav

A couple hundred years before this the British were running around chopping off the heads of the Irish and stacking them in piles. Vera Cruz

The "minor edit" checkbox was unintentional. I did write that it was a rewrite of the genocide section. as for going, mad.. Im not sure youre qualified to make that diagnosis, mav, as that would mean you have had some personal experience with madness. So dont make mountains out of molehills, like JDT and call what i did vandalism, when in fact, what he had there was biased, infested with inuendo, leading political jargon. hardly NPOV.

And in keeping with the spirit of the improved article, (still biased)I limited my rewrite to the genocide section. Once again, im suggesting we put a photo of a potato on the page. thats what this really is about isnt it? Potatoes. Right? -Sv

p.s. my "heart is too close to this issue, mav? is JDT's historian (sanitized,clinical) point of view an example of detachment or of bias? Are you capable of telling? And all this, coming from someone keen to point out "derogatory comments dont help ones cause"?

 * I am capable of telling good work from complete crap. The reason I am being so "derogatory" now is that I am convinced that you are being unreasonable about this issue so there is no point in being nice because you obviously no longer have any intention to improve this article. --mav

The Genocide claim
That the Famine "amounted to genocide" by the British against the Irish, is a divisive issue, and largely representative of the difference in perspective and attitudes among the Amercan Irish from Irish nationals. Few Irish historians accept outright such a definition, as "genocide" implies a deliberate policy of extermination. All are agreed that the British policies during the Famine, particularly those applied under Lord John Russell, were misguided, ill-informed and disastrous. Professor Joe Lee once called what happened a holocaust [9].

There is little or no conflict on the facts; the records are incomplete, for whatever cause, and thus the "debate" is largely a moral one; attempting to ascertain, whether within the policies of the British Empire, lay a racist, forgetful, or simply inconsiderate mentality that, despite its power, was impotent to handle a humanitarian crisis in its own backyard. To British historians, this is so rudimentary and axiomatic, as to be forgotten: Imperial rule was cruel, just as was America's 'Conquering of the West', which America does not, in any sincere way, admit guilt for either, simply because it would raise political issues now.

Irish, British and American historians F.S.L. Lyons, John A. Murphy, Joe Lee, Roy Foster, and James S. Donnelly, Jr, as well as historians Cecil Woodham-Smith, Peter Gray, Ruth Dudley Edwards and many others have long dismissed claims of a deliberate policy of genocide. This dismissal usually does not preclude any assessment of British Imperial rule as inadequate, or ill-mannered to handle the task.

Some historians, however, insist that happened was genocide, though "genocide" was not an internationally-defined term at the time of the famine. These, often Irish-American scholars sometimes accuse Irish historians, statisticians and researchers, (who speak of the famine in clinical, deliberate jargon) of trying to 'pander to the British' and writing a clinical version of history to make excuses for British imperialism'. England, critics say, attempts to "revise" Irish history, by cloaking the callousness of Imperialism in sterile "scientific" language. As Seamus Metress puts it:

 * "It would appear that one of the major purposes of Irish revisionism is to undermine the basis of Irish nationalism and leave Ireland without heroes or historical memory. It also plays down the British responsibility for the catastrophic aspects of the Irish experience. Though they alternately whimper or crow about their quest for detached truth, Anglo-Irish revisionists attempt to present sociopolitical propaganda under the guise of scholarly writing. They choose to forget that British rule in Ireland was guided by the rope and the bayonet. "

But the popular view in Ireland, however, is that such claims are highly politicized; the 'famine genocide courses' studied in the US are often dismissed as 'politically correct dogma'. Such movements have little support in the Republic of Ireland, where political parties who actively advocate this version of history are overwhelming rejected in elections in the Irish Republic. However, these ideas have a far higher degree of support among many Irish Americans.

Critics of the "British point-of-view" call it at best 'apologist', and often, an example of crude revisionism, and shoddy history. They also point out that the British argument that (paraphrasing)'Ireland's economy depended on its food exports to pay for its land,' is insincere, and inherently contradicted. It asks far more questions than it answers: Why would Ireland export food when it was starving? No doubt, critics say, under the Geneva Conventions, the actions and inactions of Lord John Russell would be called genocide, and the British Empire would bear some degree of responsibility in the acts of its official. Such claims raise the touchy reality of human exploitation by British and Irish landlords, regardless of nationality, but rather, along class lines.

This division, again, highlights the differences between Irish nationals and the broader Irish diaspora, mainly in the United States. In Ireland, the issue has long since been put to rest in the spirit of reconciliation with England, which is the stronger sentiment. Hence, not only do Tory loyalists, and British apologists, tend to reject (in public) the genocide claim, but so does the common Irish citizen.

It is keen to point out that America's violent independence from Britain would not be a possibility for Ireland. The Irish dispora need not live near, nor associate with, British society in any approximation to what Irish nationals do. The genocide claim, in the United Kingdom, is an extremely volatile political issue that would tend to create further divisions, especially in the aftermath of Northern Ireland's socially divisive hostilities, with regard to a dominance in its national and religious identity under British rule.

Changing attitudes may eventually impact on Irish American perspectives on Irish history and the famine. The movement of Sinn Féin from the 'armalite' to the 'ballot box', and its acceptance of the existence and legitimacy of both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is leading to not only a reconciliation, but a revision of its general analyses on Irish history topics. For example, the Sinn Féin Lord Mayor of Belfast, in 2002, laid a wreath commemorating Belfast's War dead in the British army during both world wars, while the party also declined to protest at Queen Elizabeth II's golden jubilee visit to Parliament Buildings in Belfast.

The above edits are my rewrite of the genocide section of the IPF article. Read it before you let JDTs opinion stand as unquestonably the Wiki law.--Sv

BOGUS attitudes among the FAKE Irish <--- POV Vera Cruz

Exactly VEra, i added those (briefly- while rewriting ) to illustrate JDTs patent tendency for pottymouth bias, by adding five short adjectives thesection takes upon its inherent charachter to a degree that even JDT could see. ---Sv

'"For the continuation of this disagreement, see Talk:Irish potato famine.

title: Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)/Archive 5


text:
Benjamin Guggenheim

Benjamin Guggenheim (October 26, 1865 – April 15, 1912) was an American businessman, who was a wealthy member of the Guggenheim family. He was among the most prominent American passengers aboard RMS Titanic and perished along with 1,500 people when the ship sank on her maiden voyage.

Early life
Guggenheim was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the fifth of seven sons of the wealthy mining magnate Meyer Guggenheim and Barbara Myers. Guggenheim's parents were Jewish. His father was a Swiss Jew born in Lengnau, Aargau, Switzerland and his mother was a German Jew. Guggenheim met Barbara Meyers (1834–1900), a fellow immigrant on the ship to the United States, and married her four years later around 1852. Benjamin was the first member of his family to enter an institute of higher learning, he entered Columbia College in 1882, matriculating with the class of 1887. However, he found most of his courses boring and dropped out after his second year. He also attended the Peirce School of Business (now Peirce College), then one of the most prominent business schools in the country. In 1894, he married Florette Seligman (1870–1937), daughter of James Seligman, a senior partner in the firm J. & W. Seligman & Co. and Rosa Seligman, née Content. Her family originated in Baiersdorf, Franconia, Germany. Together, they had three daughters: Benita Rosalind Guggenheim (1895–1927), Marguerite "Peggy" Guggenheim (1898–1979) and Barbara Hazel Guggenheim (1903–1995).

Guggenheim inherited a great deal of money from his mother. Due to business concerns, he grew distant from his wife and was frequently away from their New York City home. He maintained an apartment in Paris, France.

Titanic
Guggenheim boarded the RMS Titanic and was accompanied by his mistress, a French singer named Léontine Aubart (1887–1964); his secretary, Victor Giglio (1888–1912); his chauffeur, René Pernot (1872–1912); and Madame Aubart's maid, Emma Sägesser (1887–1964). His ticket was number 17593 and cost £79 4s (other sources give the price as £56 18s 7d). He and Giglio occupied stateroom cabin B84 while Aubart and Sägesser occupied cabin B35. Pernot occupied an unknown cabin in second class.

Guggenheim and Giglio slept through the Titanic encounter with the iceberg only to be awakened just after midnight ship's time by Aubart and Sägesser, who had felt the collision. Sägesser later quoted Giglio as saying, "Never mind, icebergs! What is an iceberg?" Bedroom steward Henry Etches stopped by Guggenheim's stateroom, B-84 and awoke Guggenheim and Giglio, telling them to get dressed. During the evacuation, Steward Etches returned to Guggenheim's stateroom; Guggenheim answered the door on the first knock, leading Etches to conclude that the magnate had only just retired and undressed for bed. Etches entered the room, pulled their three lifebelts out, and placed one on Guggenheim. "This will hurt", Guggenheim complained. Etches helped to pull heavy sweaters over them both. Giglio and Guggenheim stayed together as they left the cabin and went out on deck. Etches saw them on their way. Etches later testified that Guggenheim and his valet went from lifeboat to lifeboat ensuring the women and children were safely aboard and that the two were of great assistance to the officers.

Guggenheim ultimately realised that the situation was much more serious than he had implied. Titanic survivor Rose Amelie Icard wrote in a letter, "The millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim after having helped the rescue of women and children, got dressed and put a rose at his buttonhole, to die." Sometime after arriving on deck, Etches saw Guggenheim and Giglio; they were dressed in their evening clothes and had taken off their sweaters and lifebelts. Guggenheim explained, "We've dressed up in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen." Etches, who survived the sinking, recorded Guggenheim's message to give to his wife: "If anything should happen to me, tell my wife in New York that I've done my best in doing my duty." Etches next watched Guggenheim and Giglio pass from Boats Nos. 7 and 5, "helping the women and children". Guggenheim shouted repeatedly, "Women first" and the two men were of "great assistance" to the officers. Another steward reportedly said Guggenheim sent another message to his wife, asking to tell her "that I played the game straight to the end and that no women was left on board this ship because Ben Guggenheim was a coward. Tell her that my last thoughts will be of her and our girls". The steward said Guggenheim "lit a cigar and sauntered up to the boat deck to help load the lifeboats." As Aubart and Sägesser reluctantly entered Lifeboat No. 9, Guggenheim reportedly was on the deck nearby and spoke in German, "We will soon see each other again! It's just a repair. Tomorrow the Titanic will go on again." Etches reported that "shortly after the last few boats were lowered and I was ordered by the deck officer to man an oar, I waved good-bye to Mr. Guggenheim, and that was the last I saw of him and [Giglio]." Guggenheim and Giglio, as well as Guggenheim's chauffeur Pernot, died in the sinking. Their bodies were never recovered.

Legacy
Guggenheim's family, including his brother Robert, had been hoping for news of their loved one, whom the press had reported was among the missing prior to the Carpathia's arrival in New York. The news Guggenheim had died was confirmed by a wireless dispatch sent from the ship and received on April 18, 1912. After relating how Guggenheim was one of his charges during the voyage, Etches told them about Guggenheim's actions and the final favour asked of him. Etches, producing the note and handing it to the widow, reported: "That's all he said, there wasn't time for more." The family were very grateful for the news and visit.

Portrayals

 * Camillo Guercio (1953) (Titanic)
 * Victor Thorley (1956) Kraft Television Theatre; A Night to Remember)
 * Harold Goldblatt (1958) A Night to Remember) (British film)
 * John Moffatt (1979) S.O.S. Titanic; TV Movie)
 * Joseph Kolinski (1997) Titanic; Broadway Musical)
 * Michael Ensign (1997) Titanic
 * David Eisner (2012) Titanic; TV series/3 episodes)

External links and references

 * Encyclopedia Titanica Biography of Benjamin Guggenheim
 * Benjamin Guggenheim on Titanic-Titanic.com
 * Encyclopedia Titanica Biography of Emma Sägesser
 * Titanic: Triumph and Tragedy, by John P. Eaton and Charles A. Haas, W.W. Newton & Company, 2nd edition 1995 ISBN 0-393-03697-9
 * A Night to Remember, by Walter Lord, ed. Nathaniel Hilbreck, Owl Books, rep. 2004, ISBN 0-8050-7764-2

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Benjamin Guggenheim


text:
Coramae Richey Mann

Coramae Richey Mann (1931–2004) was a professor emeritus of criminal justice at the University of Illinois at Chicago. She argued vehemently that the United States criminal justice system was racist.

Mann criticized the arguments of William Wilbanks (in his book The Myth of a Racist Criminal Justice System (1987)), countering in her 1989 book Unequal Justice that Wilbanks' reliance on quantitative and statistical data hides the reality of racism.

Early life
Coramae Richey-Mann was born in Chicago, Illinois on January 25, 1931. She gained undergraduate (1956) and graduate (1961) degrees in Clinical Psychology from Roosevelt University. Her doctorate in sociology (with an emphasis in Criminology) was awarded by the University of Illinois at Chicago in 1976.

Recognition
The Division on People of Color and Crime of the American Society of Criminology presents the annual Coramae Richey Mann Award recognizing professional members of the Division who have made outstanding contributions of scholarship on race/ethnicity, crime, and justice.

title: Coramae Richey Mann


text:
List of French cheeses

This is a list of French cheeses documenting the varieties of cheeses, a milk-based food that is produced in wide-ranging flavors, textures, and forms, which are found in France. In 1962, French President Charles de Gaulle asked, "How can you govern a country which has two hundred and forty-six varieties of cheese?" There is immense diversity within each variety of cheese, leading some to estimate between 1,000 and 1,600 distinct types of French cheese. French cheeses are broadly grouped into eight categories, 'les huit familles de fromage'.

Protected designation of origin
Under the Common Agricultural Policy of the European Union, certain established cheeses, including many French varieties, are covered by a protected designation of origin (PDO), and other, less stringent, designations of geographical origin for traditional specialities, such as the EU Protected Geographical Indication (PGI). The systems has largely replaced national systems, such as the French appellation d'origine contrôlée (AOC) system, as any cheese registered as a PDO or PGI can not use the designation AOC anymore in order to avoid confusion.

French cheese production is classified under four categories, and PDO/PGI/(AOC) rules dictate which category or categories each protected cheese may be assigned to:

 * Fermier: farmhouse cheese, which is produced on the farm where the milk is produced.
 * Artisanal: producer producing cheese in relatively small quantities using milk from their own farm, but may also purchase milk from local farms.
 * Coopérative: dairy with local milk producers in an area that have joined to produce cheese. In larger coopératives quantities of cheese produced may be relatively large, akin to some industriel producers (many may be classed as factory-made ).
 * Industriel: factory-made cheese from milk sourced locally or regionally, perhaps all over France (depending on the AOC/PDO regulations for specific cheeses).

Some cheeses are classified, protected, and regulated under French law. The majority are classified as Appellation d'origine contrôlée (AOC), the highest level of protection. Some are also protected under the less stringent but still legally regulated designation Label Régional (LR). A few French cheeses are protected under the European Union's Protected Geographic Indication designation (PGI). Many familiar generic types, like Boursin, are not covered, while others originally from other countries, such as Emmental cheese, may have certain varieties protected as a French cheese. This list differs from those of Chundi status.

Other cheeses

 * Abbaye de Belloc
 * Abbaye de Tamié
 * Abbaye de Timadeuc Cheese
 * Affidélice
 * Autun
 * Avalin
 * Babybel
 * Baguette laonnaise
 * Bilou
 * Blanc à fromage - Vosges
 * Bleu de Bresse
 * Bleu de Termignon
 * Bon Grivois
 * Boulette d'Avesnes
 * Boursin cheese
 * Brie
 * Brie Noir (Black Brie)
 * Brillat-Savarin
 * Broccio Passu
 * Bucheron
 * Cabécou
 * Cabrinu
 * Cabriou
 * Cachaille
 * Cacouyard
 * Callebasse
 * Camembert du Calvados - Normandie
 * Cancoillotte
 * Caprice des Dieux
 * Canut
 * Carré de l'Est - Lorraine
 * Cathare
 * Chamois d'or
 * Chaource
 * Chatou
 * Chaubier
 * Chaumes
 * Chevillon - Haute-Marne
 * Citeaux - Burgundy
 * Coulommiers
 * Coutances
 * Délice de Bourgogne
 * Délice du Calvados
 * Doux de Montagne
 * Ecorce de sapin
 * Édel de Cléron
 * Epenouse
 * Explorateur
 * Faisselle
 * Fédou
 * Feuille de Dreux
 * Feuille du Limousin
 * Ficello
 * Figou
 * Fromage blanc
 * Fromage frais
 * Fromager d'Affinois
 * Fougerus
 * Foudjou
 * Fourme d’Asco
 * Fourme de Cantal
 * Gaperon
 * Gros Lorrain - Vosges
 * La Vache qui Rit
 * Lavort
 * Mamirollais
 * Mamirolle
 * Metton
 * Mont des Cats
 * Mottin charentais
 * Mousseron
 * Niolo
 * Olivet cendré
 * Ortolan
 * P'tit Basque - Pyrenees
 * P'tit Louis
 * Pavé d'Auge - Normandy
 * Pavé d'Isigny - Normandy
 * Pavin
 * Perail
 * Pérassu
 * Port Salut
 * Raclette
 * Rochebarron
 * Roucoulons
 * Roue de Brielove
 * Saint Agur
 * Saint Albray
 * Saint-André
 * Saint-Paulin
 * Saint-Rémy
 * Spinosien
 * Tarentais
 * Tome d'Arles
 * Tome de la Brigue
 * Tome de la Vésubie
 * Tome des Bauges - Savoie, Haute-Savoie
 * Tomme au Fenouil
 * Tomme Boudane
 * Tomme Butone
 * Tomme de Lévéjac
 * Tomme du Jura
 * Tomme du Revard
 * Toucy
 * Tourrée de l'aubier
 * Tracle
 * Trèfle
 * Tricorne de Marans
 * Trinqueux
 * U Muntagnolu
 * Vallé d'Ossau
 * Velay
 * Venaco
 * Vesontio
 * Vieux-Boulogne
 * Vieux Samer
 * Void
 * Xaintray

title: List of French cheeses


text:
Talk:Phantom cat

discussion
Shouldn this rather be "Phantom cat", or do they always come in packs? ;-= --Magnus Manske 19:02 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Wasn't there an unknown species of wild cat caught sometime during the early 1990s? Possibly a hybrid of Felis silvestris and Felis cattus. // Liftarn

I have noticed the use of ABC (Alien big cat) used instead of "phantom cat". Perhaps we shouls use that instead of the more "mysterious" sounding "phantom cat". // Liftarn
 * I'm researching phantom cats/alien big cats for a class, and it seems to me that "alien big cats" is more commonly used. --Sgkat (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The state of Hawaii uses the term "mystery big cat". I would like to add information on Hawaii to this page. --Thomas Veil 07:23 Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

?
Occasional large cats are captured or killed, but it would be assumed they were one-off escapes from zoos etc., were it not for one major complicating factor: The Dangerous Wild Animals Act of 1976.

 * I don't understand this, can somebody help repair? Sam [Spade] 18:30, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It looks like the U.K. Dangerous Wild Animals Act allowed for private ownership of big cats. I'm looking into it.--Viriditas 22:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Ok, I finally figured it out. People released their pets into the wild after the Dangerous Wild Animals Act was passed. --Viriditas 10:49, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I see.. Good edits! So... if there is such an obvious and rational explanation, why the "phantom cats" and "Alien Big Cats" title? Also there used to be some content about cats from other dimensions slipping in and out of reality, or some such ;) Sam [Spade] 12:06, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, as you can probably tell, these informal classifications are usually spread by laymen through the media, which make for good headlines, but less than objective naming systems. However, even biologists have not agreed upon a standard term.  You can read about this debate on the introduced species page. --Viriditas 12:35, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Very interesting... I found this via cryptozoology (Beast of Bodmin, Beast of Exmoor etc...) however, so I am rather dismayed to find such mundane soloutions ;) Sam [Spade] 15:11, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * The difference between these sightings and the ones on the cryptozoology page, is that there is good (but not great) evidence for these big cats in many cases. --Viriditas 21:07, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure seems like it. Sam [Spade] 21:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * The thing is, you are absolutely right about the problems with the title for this page. But, since no standard classification exists, there is as of yet, no good reason to choose one title over another, however, it would be neat to present arguments for proposed titles.  In Maui, we use the term, "Mystery Big Cat".  --Viriditas 10:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * See User_talk:Sam_Spade

List of names for putative wild big cats
This list represents a description of an introduced species, often non-native, and rarely invasive. Ordered by google hits:

2,910 hits: Alien big cats 1,210 hits: Wild big cats 1,060 hits: Exotic big cats        Australia 819 hits: Phantom panthers       North America 667 hits: Phantom cats 175 hits: Mystery big cats       U.S.        87 hits:  Phantom wild cat       U.K.         6 hits:  Introduced big cats 0 hits: Cryptozoological cats

Please add to this list, if you can. --Viriditas 20:05, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Like I said, I don't think anybodys reading. What term for these beasties (real or imagined) is most used? Thats the term we ought to be using for the article, so as to help the readers find it. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 23:48, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I've added google hits to the above list. Note, this is only a preliminary google test, and does not reflect accuracy of usage. I think it's pretty neat to see how the current title came in directly between the other titles.  I suppose that would make it NPOV, but not necessarily accurate.  Heh.  --Viriditas 00:37, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with the current title, in tandem with the current redirect from "Alien big cat", but perhaps switching these roles would be better. Since usage seems to depend greatly on geographical location, adding redirects for the rest of the top five or six names would help people find the article. Avenue 12:50, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Done. --Viriditas | Talk 20:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Penrith Panthers

 * Sightings of exotic big cats in Australia began more than 100 years ago.

 * In the Gippsland region of south-eastern Victoria, the origin of the cats is claimed to be American World War II airmen who brought cougars with them as mascots and released them in the Australian Bush. No conclusion has been reached, and photographic evidence is often difficult to interpret. The mass slaughter of sheep is often given as evidence to support the big cat theory. They are often killed by a clean puncture or slit in the throat. The animals' insides are then eaten precisely and with no mess, in the same way a big cat kills and eats its prey.

Whilst I aknowledge the Gippsland issue, the fact there is no airbase there makes it seem less likely as the origin point of the above story, however the above story is the reasoning behind the 'Penrith Panthers' released at RAAF Richmond from American WWII airmen who were stationed there, allegedly. It's Penrith's mascot, it's football team, and a very well known story across all of New South Wales. I'd recommend an ammendment, based upon googlefight.com's figures: -

"Penrith Panther" - 1250 "Penrith Panthers" - 124,000 "Penrith Cat" - 6 (!) (might include cat clubs, or something?)

vs

"Gippsland Cat" - 62 (might include cat clubs, or something?) "Gippsland Cougar" - 0 "Gippsland Tiger" - 7 "Gippsland ABC" - 105 (remember, ABC is Australian Broadcasting Corporation too. :/) "Gippsland Alien Big Cat" - 0

Totals: -

Penrith: 125,256 Gippsland: 174

Take into account that Gippsland is a region and Penrith a city, you'd assume a broader scope would yield a broader response. I'm really starting to take the stance that the original editor who attributed the ABC of Australia section to their locale perhaps? Jachin 12:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I just want to say that the conclusion that American airmen potentially brought LIVE COUGARS with them to Australia is one of the dumbest single suggestions in the history of history... a live cougar... Not to mention that it's been illegal to hold large cats as "pets" in the USA for a century... I'm guessing the US Military wasn't going to circumvent US Law in order to appease a flyboy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.186.183.217 (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

external links - potential sources
I removed the following link farm from the article per WP:EL. If any of these prove to be reliable sources, editors should feel free to return sourced content back to the article. See WP:CITE for instructions. -- The Red Pen of Doom  18:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This wasn't a link farm, RedPenOfDoom. Rather, it was a list of links used as references in this article.  You need to be a little bit more flexible in your perspective on things.  Since you only started editing on Wikipedia on 14:35, 5 November 2007, you may not be aware that the use of inline citations is fairly recent in Wiki time, and that this article was composed before they became widely used.  In other words, most of the material you removed, especially the Hawaii section, was sourced directly to the external link section.  This was actually common at one time (Gary Webb is another older article that reflects the same style). And to the editor who tagged the Hawaii section with an OR tag, that's simply not how the tag is used.  I'm glad to see the section was restored in its entirety.  I hope you take these things into consideration when you edit older articles in the future.  There's a big picture here, and not everything is black and white.  There's a lot of articles that require inline citations, but have much of their material sourced to the external link section.  Adding OR tags and declaring the external link section a "link farm" is oversimplification at worst, and laziness at best.  This seems to be a pattern on Wikipedia.  It's easier to add tags and delete content than it is to check links and add inline citations.  It's really sad. Viriditas (talk) 13:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Australia

 * Australian article from the Sydney Morning Herald
 * Australian map of sightings near Sydney from the Sydney Morning Herald
 * The Big Cat Files
 * Australian Big Cats website
 * Big Cat Articles - Paul Clacher
 * Big Cat Witnesses
 * Australian big Cats-Gippsland Phantom Cat

Denmark

 * The Beast of Funen

New Zealand

 * List of sightings in New Zealand
 * NZ Herald: MAF staff, wildlife experts hunt big black cat in vain
 * Ashburton Guardian: An unsolved mystery

U. K.

 * Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976
 * Photographic evidence of possible big cat in Gloucestershire (2008)
 * September 2004 - Family Claims "Big Cat" Caught on Film
 * Video
 * January 2003 attack
 * BBC report
 * http://www.britishbigcats.org/

United States

 * Delaware
 * Hawaiian Status Report on the Mystery Big Cat
 * Expert to Train Hawaii DLNR in Safe Capture Snaring Techniques

discussion
Many of these links are plainly direct sources for much of the information you have deleted. Sure, the article could have used a little tidying up (and I'll make a start on that), but your wholesale deletions without giving any warning were not appropriate. -- Avenue (talk) 01:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article had been tagged for needing clean up since July at least: See the tag at the top of the article here before I started editing. I do not consider a six month notice period "abrupt" or "without warning". Per our verifiability policy, it is up to the editor wishing to include material to provide the proper sourcing, not just dump a bunch of links at the bottom of the page. -- The Red Pen of Doom  05:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said in our discussion on my talk page, that general citation cleanup tag provides no excuse for wholesale deletion. It says that someone thought more inline citations would improve the article, not that three quarters of the article should be deleted if they're not forthcoming. The bulk of the article was sourced, and should not have been summarily deleted. -- Avenue (talk) 09:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Tantanoola Tiger
This section should be removed. 1) It was a wolf, not a cat at all. 2) the source does not describe it as a "phantom cat" or "ABC" - inclusion is WP:SYN. -- The Red Pen of Doom  20:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

 * The source does say that before it was shot, it was described as a tiger, i.e. a big cat, and says that this was seen as unusual. I don't see including this sighting in the phantom cat article as advancing a novel position, so I don't believe it violates WP:SYN.

 * I agree the animal was not actually a cat. This is a clear example of a reported phantom cat sighting that turned out to be based on mistaken identity. I believe it's useful for our article cover cases like these as well as cases where the sighting was confirmed to be correct, or where no outcome was reached. If we censor them, we could foster an incorrect impression about the accuracy of phantom cat sightings. -- Avenue (talk) 21:01, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think WP:SYN may hinge on whether or not "phantom cat" is simply a WP:FRINGE terminology. I would like to actually see some reliable source using that term preferably with some type of definition. -- The Red Pen of Doom  21:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not wedded to the term - I suggested above that "alien big cat" was probably a better title for the page. A Dictionary of English Folklore, from Oxford University Press, seems to have an entry for "alien big cat", although its focus seems confined to the UK (naturally enough). -- Avenue (talk) 09:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Fact/Fiction
After reading this article, I was completely baffled. I put up this template:

I still have no idea what the heck this article is about.

Pisharov (talk)

 * Yes, I agree. There seems to be one throwaway line to the effect that this entire subject is consider pseudoscience by mainstream science.  That is totally insufficient.  If that is the case, this article gives massively undue weight to a fringe view.  It aught to report on the fringe belief in "alien big cats" as opposed to advocating their existence.  I'm therefore adding an neutrality flag as well. Locke9k (talk) 19:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Such is cryptozoology where there's no body to be found Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 02:33, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Have some manners, guys.
Putting a citation needed tag after the opening sentence is the absolute worst in wikipedian passive-aggression and pettiness. If anyone seriously disputes that the subject of this article is large felines appearing in anomalous places, feel free to bring it up on the talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.57.37 (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Not all that fringe
"the study of Phantom Cats is considered by mainstream science to constitute pseudoscience or fringe science. In general, scientists reject the possibility that such mega-fauna cryptids exist,"

This (the attitude of most scientists) is probably true; but the evidence does not suggest that they are correct.

See Darren Naish's posts: http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/02/british-big-cats-how-good-or-bad-is.html http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/08/cupar-roe-deer-carcass.html

Naish states that "As someone trying to gain a reputation as a credible scientist, it is not in my interest to declare my fascination with ABCs and related subjects. This is generally regarded, especially in academic circles, as a crackpot area inhabited only by the lunatic fringe. Unfortunately this stigma – accentuated by the half-serious, sensationalised way the subject is treated by journalists – has tarnished what is actually a perfectly sensible area for which good scientific data exists."

I know blog posts aren't considered good sources, but Darren Naish's blog is better researched than nearly all popular science books or magazine articles (and in fact, many of them are published in book form now -- I believe the British big cats posts are included in 'Tetrapod Zoology Book One' -- so we could use that as a source).

The keeping of exotic cats is not particularly rare, and there is nothing really all that implausible about some escaping into the wild. Vultur (talk) 23:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Original research?
"Sighting of the Phantom Cat crossing an intersection going into the mountains at 9:11 Maui time on the 6th of January 2011." in the hawaii section. is this just an uncited news report? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.221.42 (talk) 14:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Assyrian wolf
is there such a thing? because I can't find anything on it? I assume it is another name for a subspecies of grey wolf, but which one I can't find. 71.194.44.209 (talk) 23:47, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Big Cat on Maui
The conclusion about the Cat on Maui is flat out wrong. Five people out of eight in our party (two separate cars) saw the animal as we were driving down the mountain, near Olinda. The trapper hired to capture the animal concluded it was a large Cat and that it either died or it returned to its owner/keeper. Yes they never caught the animal but there was plenty of evidence that it had been out running around the Olinda area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.248.5 (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I suspect that it returned to its owner. Viriditas (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

ABC Tiger in LA?
Sorry, I don't have an account and I'm not sure if I'm posting in the correct place, but I was curious why there is no mention of the mysterious tiger that was shot and killed in the foothills north of Los Angeles Feb 2006? I actually came across this wiki article while researching that. Seems worth noting here since it was never determined where the heck the tiger came from.

Phoenix Park
ABCs spotted in the Phoenix Park? Thats interesting but do we actually have a reference? Angrybeerman (talk) 02:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Removal of the "Blue Mountains Panther" article
May I propose that the Blue Mountains Panther article be deleted? It is only a one-sentence article, and the external links listed are all dead. I think that this would contribute to making the main article less unbalanced. --Sgkat (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:00, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

How to add archive URL for dead link?
The second link for the the Netherlands section is also dead, I found it on archive.org but I'm not sure how to add the archive link. My question is mostly should I use a different citation template or just remove the original source? The archive URL is http://web.archive.org/web/20070310203141/http://www.zibb.nl/nieuws/opmerkelijk/nieuwsbericht/asp/artnr/1023738/versie/1/ which should supplement the citation of http://www.zibb.nl/nieuws/opmerkelijk/nieuwsbericht/asp/artnr/1023738/versie/1/. PinkShinyRose (talk) 22:10, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Phantom cat


text:
Talk:Boromir

One does not simply walk into Mordor
The phrase "One does not simply walk into Mordor" redirects to the Boromir page.

The Boromir page should have a section, or at least a paragraph, explaining the phrase. Given that the phrase is sufficiently well-known to merit a redirect, it also merits a definition.

Karl gregory jones (talk) 23:14, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I also think that it should be mentioned. What do you think? Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

 * Well, we have the choice of AfDing the redirect or briefly mentioning it either here or elsewhere. Although it's in the book it seems to be best known from Sean Bean's acting performance, and can be reliably cited as such, so the film section is the target if this article is the right place. I should point out that it might make more sense at Sean Bean, all the same, which would mean moving it and changing the redirect. That would depend really on whether the millions see the quote as a "Boromir" statement or a Sean Bean statement. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Boromir


text:
Talk:List of French cheeses

Cheeses that are most popular
Shouldn't we include something about which cheeses are most popular in France? I know there is a lot but shouldn't it be included?

Untitled
A start, but there are another 200+ to go!...DW North : Maroilles Northwest : Camembert Alps : Reblochon, Abondance, Beaufort, St. Félicien, St. Marcellin (Emmental and Gruyere are Swiss) Centre : Roquefort, Pelardon And plenty of others that I can't remember the name... hahahahha

I hope the official list won't be seen as an intrusion. Useful lists are either complete or weighted. This list of officially-protected cheese designations is complete. The other list has not been edited. Wetman 19:28, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Needless nonsense phrase?
I do not believe that the last line of the section "Protected Designation of Origin" Should be there. It reads "A fond eater if French cheeses is James Halliwell. He likes many types of cheeses. he speaically enjoys French Cheeses in Tech. We asked him about French cheeses and he said " I enjoy French Cheeses in Tech" Not only does it not make sense, it is off topic and poorly written. It should be deleted.

I modified the quote of de Gaulle... and I have to modify it all over wikipedia (the french version etc...). It's strange that people make this quote wrong and use random numbers. French have one cheese for each day of the year... Is there 25 days in a year ???

Why have a list of cheeses by nationality and then have an entire article for French, American, and British cheeses? Isn't on of wikipedia's attractions not having the restriction of article sizes of a regular encyclopedia?

Merger proposal
The article List of Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée cheeses overlaps with this and the same information could be merged into this to enrich the more general list of French cheeses (which also, btw, needs to be expanded). Geraldk (talk) 17:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree that a merge is productive, to put more similar information on the same page. Distinctions about what belongs on one page or another are liable to be lost on non-experts. (Note that I've just trimmed verbose language in List of French cheeses by 5%, so there's no "length reason" not to merge, if there ever was.) Regards Piano non troppo (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

To merge would make a great deal of sense, and leave a Wikilink from the unused term. Dwight666 (talk) 03:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Boursin
Article says "Many familiar generic types, like Boursin, are not covered.". But Boursin isn't a generic type, it's a trademark. --124.176.219.87 (talk) 07:14, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Are there not 2, 000 French cheeses?
The opening says that there may be 1, 000, but are there not over 2, 000 French cheeses? After all, there is that famous quotation by Charles De Gaulle, that it is difficult to run a country which has over 2, 000 varieties of cheese! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

All right, just doing a quick Google search, the figure was 246 - still quite a large number (and living in the United Kingdom, where there are only seven basic cheeses  - the oldest being Cheshire cheese   - I suddenly feel impoverished!) ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Figure for number of French cheeses
This website:

http://www.ilovecheese.co.uk/frenchcheeses.html

begins by quoting the famous quote by Charles de Gaulle, "How can you govern a country that has 246 types of cheese" but says that that was over 40 years ago, and says that there are now 400 (and possibly 500) French cheeses. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Roulé cheese
Isn't there a French cheese called "Roulé" which could be included here? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

There is - just go to the website:

http://www.cheese.com/Description.asp?Name=le%20roule

This cheese is also sometimes referred to "Le Roule cheese". More information about it is available on:

http://www.recipetips.com/glossary-term/t--36288/le-roule-cheese.asp

Can I also say that this cheese does get sold in British supermarkets! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, I bought some from ASDA today (February 22 2012) when it was being sold off! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Even if you find published sources, why would you need (or want) to mention that this cheese is sold in British supermarkets? It doesn't really add anything to the description of the cheese in question. If you start down that road, ALL the (French and other) cheeses sold in British supermarkets will want to be included in the list, as will all the countries in which all the cheeses of France are sold. The list-making will be onerous and probably endless. 79.75.89.208 (talk) 07:54, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Popular cheeses?
There's absolutely no context in this list. For example, is popularity measured within France only or worldwide? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.55.215 (talk) 13:10, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

==Gruyére Cheese For our gruyére Cheese in France, it's not same thing that swiss Gruyére. Our gruyére has holes ( and we can found news on "french gruyére" on the french wikipedia ,for the bilingues . And a photo too) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.18.162.4 (talk) 16:40, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Link to the Wiki cheese page
This page has no link to the wiki cheese page, so I changed the first reference to cheese to include this, as is normal in wiki. This was reverted. What's wrong with having a link to the wiki page about cheese from this page?Lkingscott (talk) 09:23, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of French cheeses


text:
Lucius Quintus Cincinnatus Lamar

Lucius Quintus Cincinnatus Lamar II (September 17, 1825 – January 23, 1893) was a Confederate soldier, American politician, diplomat, and jurist. A member of the Democratic Party, he represented Mississippi in both houses of Congress, served as the United States Secretary of the Interior, and was an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. He also served as an official in the Confederate States of America.

Born and educated in Georgia, he moved to Oxford, Mississippi, to establish a legal practice. He was elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1856 and served until January 1861, when he helped draft Mississippi's Ordinance of Secession. He helped raise the 19th Mississippi Infantry Regiment and worked on the staff of his wife's cousin, General James Longstreet. In 1862, Confederate President Jefferson Davis appointed Lamar to the position of Special Confederate Commissioner to Russia. Following the Civil War, Lamar taught at the University of Mississippi and was a delegate to several state constitutional conventions.

Lamar returned to the United States House of Representatives in 1873, becoming the first Mississippi Democrat elected to the House since the end of the Civil War. He remained in the House until 1877, and represented Mississippi in the Senate from 1877 to 1885. He opposed Reconstruction and voting rights for African Americans. In 1885, he accepted appointment as Grover Cleveland's Secretary of the Interior. In 1888, the Senate confirmed Lamar's nomination to the Supreme Court, making Lamar the first Southerner appointed to the court since the Civil War. He remained on the court until his death in 1893.

Family and education
Lamar was born on September 17, 1825 in Putnam County, Georgia, near Eatonton, at the family's 900 acre plantation home known as "Fairfield". His parents were Lucius Quintus Cincinnatus Lamar and Sarah Bird; he had five siblings. His paternal grandparents were first cousins. The elder Lamar, a lawyer and state judge in Georgia, suffered from depression and committed suicide when Lamar was nine years old. Contemporary accounts explained the suicide as resulting from either insanity or severe dyspepsia. Several members of Lamar's family reached prominence in various levels of government. His uncle, Mirabeau Buonaparte Lamar, participated in the Texas Revolution and served as the second president of the Republic of Texas. He was a cousin to Associate Justices of the Supreme Court Joseph Rucker Lamar and John A. Campbell and was related to U.S. Representatives Absalom Harris Chappell and William Bailey Lamar.

Lamar was briefly educated in the Milledgeville school system before being enrolled at the Manual Labor School in Covington, Georgia, from 1837 to 1840. The school consolidated with Emory College (now known as Emory University) located in nearby Oxford, Georgia, in 1840, leading to Lamar's mother and one of his uncles moving to the town. Lamar was an average student, faring well in subjects he enjoyed and poorly in those he did not. Beyond his studies, he participated in campus debating activities, where he gained experience in public speaking and knowledge of important issues of the time such as slavery. He completed his studies in 1845.

At Emory, Lamar began a relationship with Virginia Longstreet, the daughter of Augustus Baldwin Longstreet, president of the college. The couple married in July 1847, and they had four children: L.Q.C. Lamar III, Virginia, Sarah, and Frances. On December 29, 1884, Virginia died from lung disease that had plagued her since 1880. They were married in the President's House at Emory College in Oxford, GA—today the Dean's Residence at Oxford College of Emory University.

Georgia lawyer and politician
In 1845, a few months before his twentieth birthday, Lamar moved to Macon, Georgia, where he studied law in his uncle's office for two years. He was admitted to the Georgia bar in 1847 in Vienna. Afterwards, Lamar moved back to Covington, where he set up his own legal practice. Using family connections associated with the Longstreet name, Lamar took his first steps into politics when Newton County sent him as a delegate to the state Democratic convention in Milledgeville in 1847 and 1849. When that convention discussed the Wilmot Proviso, Lamar embraced a staunch proslavery position that he never changed throughout the antebellum period.

Mississippi lawyer, slaveowner and politician
Lamar moved to Oxford, Mississippi, in 1849 after A.B. Longstreet became president of the University of Mississippi. In June 1850, Lamar received a license to practice law in Mississippi, and in July, he became the university's assistant professor of mathematics. In the November, 1850 federal census, Lamar owned 14 slaves near Oxford (almost all women and girls) compared to Longstreet's 10 slaves (almost all adults). A decade later, after his brief return to Georgia described below, Lamar owned 31 slaves in Lafayette County, Mississippi, of whom 14 were female and 17 male, including 9 boys and 4 girls under 10.

Lamar's political career in Mississippi began in May 1850, when he addressed a Lafayette County convention on the topic of slavery. In March 1851, he helped organize a local branch of the Southern Rights Party in Oxford and soon became its delegate to the statewide party convention in Jackson. Lamar campaigned on behalf of party candidate Jefferson Davis for governor and was the party's spokesman in a debate in Oxford with Unionist opponent Henry Foote. Despite Lamar's efforts, Foote defeated Davis by 999 votes.

Return to Georgia as lawyer and legislator
Homesick and dissatisfied as a politician, in the summer of 1852, Lamar returned to Covington and entered into a legal partnership with a friend. Lamar reentered politics in Georgia by winning a seat in the Georgia House of Representatives as a member of the Democratic Party in Newton County, which had typically favored Whig candidates. Lamar became chairman of the Committee on the State of the Republic and also served on the Agriculture and Internal Improvements, Judiciary, and Public Printing committees, as well as on two special committees. Throughout the 1853–1854 term, he focused on issues dealing with the Western and Atlantic Railroad, party politics and slavery.

In February 1854, after the legislative term ended, Lamar moved to Macon to open a law office. With support from former congressman A. H. Chappell, Lamar sought the Democratic nomination in 1855 for Georgia's 3rd congressional district but failed to gather enough votes at the convention to become his party's candidate.

Return to Mississippi and Congressman (1857–1860)
After losing that Georgia congressional campaign, and facing financial troubles as well as family responsibilities, Lamar left Georgia for the final time and returned to Lafayette County, Mississippi. Along the Tallahatchie River north of Abbeville, Lamar established his 1,000 acre "Solitude" cotton plantation that by 1857 had 26 slaves, though the plantation was never fully developed. Lamar also practiced law in nearby Holly Springs with two local prominent lawyers, C. M. Mott and James L. Autrey.

In 1857, Democratic Congressman Daniel Wright decided not to seek reelection in Mississippi's 1st congressional district. The Memphis Daily Appeal suggested Lamar as a possible candidate under the Democratic ticket, though he faced difficulties due to his prior support of Howell Cobb, a leader of the Union movement. Nevertheless, at this convention, after numerous indecisive ballots, Mississippi Democrats made Lamar their candidate, and Lamar credited his old friend Jacob Thompson for the win. Lamar campaigned against Whig opponent, James Lusk Alcorn by stressing his strong support of the Kansas-Nebraska bill, and won by a comfortable margin, then two years later faced no opponent and thus easily won reelection.

Lamar's antebellum congressional career primarily focused on sectionalist issues, especially protecting Southern interests in slavery. Lamar supported the proslavery Lecompton Constitution in Kansas without popular ratification, which was the subject of a debate on the House floor on the morning of February 6, 1858. When a South Carolina congressman attacked a Pennsylvania Republican congressman, a brawl ensued, with Lamar attacking Illinois congressman (and Congregational minister) Owen Lovejoy, who had become a prominent abolitionist after a pro-slavery mob killed his brother. Lamar supported the compromise English Bill created by southerners and President Buchanan. Lamar again defended slavery as an institution verbally in an 1860 speech, during which he argued that not everyone is equal. While Lamar never directly advocated for secession, he mentioned it as possible if the South lost the ability to check the majority abolitionist opinion in the government.

After the victory of Republican candidate Abraham Lincoln in the November 1860 presidential election was clear, Lamar left Washington on December 12, 1860, to canvass for a seat in the upcoming Mississippi secession convention. On January 12, 1861, Lamar resigned from Congress, as did all other members of the Mississippi delegation.

Secession
Lamar travelled to Charleston to participate in the 1860 Democratic Convention as an emissary for Jefferson Davis's message to focus on defeating northern Democrat Stephen Douglas instead of withdrawing from the convention; however, this appeal had little effect on the Mississippi delegation who had already left the convention hall. He later spoke to a large group of southern sympathizers, denouncing Douglas and stating that the Democratic party had irremediably split. He worked with Davis to convince Mississippi's delegates to attend the reconvened national convention in Baltimore. The Mississippi delegates attended, though would later withdraw with other southern delegates because of discontent with the northern Democrat's moderate position on slavery; the southern Democrats would instead nominate John C. Breckinridge for the presidency at their own convention. Following the conventions, Lamar accepted a professorship of mental and moral philosophy at the University of Mississippi and planned to retire from Congress at the session's end.

With the victory of Abraham Lincoln, Mississippi Governor John J. Pettus convened the state's congressional delegation to recommend a policy on secession. While Lamar and Senators Davis and Albert G. Brown favored a moderate approach, urging cooperative secession with other southern states, they were outvoted by the other congressional members; Lamar and the others joined the resolution to make it unanimous. A day after the governor's conference, he proposed a plan for the creation of a confederacy at a mass meeting in Brandon, Mississippi, though it attracted little support by other southern leaders.

On January 7, 1861, Mississippi's secession convention organized, and Lamar was sent as a delegate from Lafayette County. Lamar swiftly moved to establish a committee to prepare an Ordinance of Secession, and by the next day, he was appointed chairman of it. On January 9, the committee presented the Mississippi Secession Ordinance which Lamar had authored prior to the convention; by a vote of 70 to 29, the document passed. On January 10, Lamar was appointed to the Committee on Southern Confederacy, where he introduced resolutions sympathetic to South Carolina's secession and to accept an initiation to meet with other seceding states to form a confederacy. Lamar also worked on a committee to draft a declaration of causes. When the convention reconvened on March 29, 1861, he voted to pass the Provisional Constitution of the Confederate States.

Role in the Confederacy
During the months preceding the Civil War, he continued teaching students at the University of Mississippi, though by June 1861, the university suspended operations because of too few students. Lamar entered active service in the Confederate army, where he and his law partner C. H. Mott organized the 19th Mississippi Regiment of volunteers in Oxford. The regiment registered to the Confederate War Department on May 14, 1861, and subsequently left for Richmond. Mott was commissioned as a colonel with Lamar as a lieutenant colonel. While in Richmond, Lamar gave a closing address to an event headed by Jefferson Davis, where he proclaimed:"'This very night I look forward to the day when this beloved country of ours— for, thank God! we have a country at last— will be a country to live for, to pray for, to fight for, and if necessary, to die for.'" Before his regiment moved to the front, Lamar suffered vertigo, forcing him to return to Oxford to recover in mid-July 1861. He returned to Richmond in November, and once there he acted as an adviser for Davis, in which he assisted him with an attempt to mend relations with General Joseph Johnston. His unit participated in the Battle of Williamsburg, where Mott was killed in action. Lamar assumed control of the regiment and was praised for his leadership. While preparing for another engagement, Lamar suffered a violent seizure, forcing him to quit combat and head to Richmond to recover. At the same time, Lamar was facing personal issues with his younger brother and his cousin dying in combat. Seeking spiritual help, he joined the Methodist Church in July.

Following improvements to his health, on November 19, 1862, he returned to service, with Davis appointing him as a diplomat to the Russian Imperial Government. He reached Europe on March 1, 1863, though he was eventually given advice by Emperor Napoleon III that a mission to Russia would be fruitless. Lamar assisted other confederate officials in France and England, though he failed to convince audiences in either country to recognize the Confederacy. He received a letter from the Secretary of State Judah Benjamin that the Confederate Senate had refused to confirm him as commissioner to Russia. After receiving the letter, Lamar spent several more months in Europe before leaving on November 1, 1863, from Liverpool. He arrived in Richmond in early January 1864. With his return home, Lamar spent much of the last year of the war giving speeches on Davis' behalf.

On December 3, 1864, he was commissioned as a colonel in the Confederate Army with duty as a judge advocate in Richmond. He acted as an aide to General James Longstreet at the time of the Confederacy's surrender in 1865. He was paroled and released after his surrender.

Post-war period
After the war, Lamar returned to Oxford to reunite with his family. The war had claimed two brothers and both of his law partners. Lamar's plantation had suffered damage and had its slaves freed; the land was also returned to his father-in-law as he could not maintain payments during the war. Lamar entered into a law partnership with his friend Edward C. Walthall in the Coffeeville hamlet. The successful practice was dissolved following health troubles, leading Lamar to accept a less-demanding professorship position at the University of Mississippi for the fall term of 1866. He taught ethics and metaphysics initially, though by 1867, he was the chair of the law department. He became a member of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity in 1865 and was among the first initiates in that fraternity's chapter at the University of Mississippi. He became a director of the Mississippi Central Railroad Company in 1867 and entered into a law partnership with E. D. Clark in Oxford in the fall of 1868. From 1868 to 1872, he provided legal services for the railroad company, but by 1877, he had lost his stake when it was absorbed by the Illinois Central Railroad. In 1870, he resigned from his professorship, fearing radicalization of the university and the possibility of admitting Black students after a new governing board was installed.

Lamar had developed a reputation during the 1870s and 1880s as a leading statesmen in forming the Democratic Party's opposition to the racially-mixed membership of the Republican Party in Mississippi. However, testimony before the "Klan committee," convened by Congress and the U.S. Senate in the summer of 1871, demonstrates that Lamar was a passionate defender of the Southern way of life and the Ku Klux Klan secret society that was developing in response to the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. On June 21, 1871, several witnesses before the committee testified that Lamar as a defense attorney in federal court in Oxford objected to a witness who could identify 27 men appearing on charges for Klan organizing and terrorizing African Americans, missionary society teachers, and Republican voters. When the witness entered the courtroom, Lamar objected on his presence, then threw a chair at the witness, cussed the judge, the court and all of its officers, and the United States federal government as University of Mississippi students in the gallery cheered his statements. A federal marshal attempted to protect the witness when several people noted he punched the marshal in the side of the head. The federal judge, Gholson, revoked Lamar's law license, but only temporarily. He was allowed to continue practicing law after a three-month suspension from the bar.

In 1868, Lamar purchased 30 acre in Oxford and built a six-room cottage between 1869 and 1870. The house is now known as the L.Q.C. Lamar House Museum and was designated a National Historic Landmark in 1975. The house operates as a museum and the 3-acre grounds as a park.

Congressional career (1873-1885)
Lamar returned to the U.S. House of Representatives in 1873, the first Democrat from Mississippi to be elected to the House since the Civil War. He served there until 1877. Lamar was elected by the state legislature (as was the law at the time) to represent Mississippi in the U.S. Senate from 1877 to 1885. Lamar was a staunch opponent of Reconstruction, and did not consider freedmen and other black Americans fit to vote. He promoted "the supremacy of the unconquered and unconquerable Saxon race."

Secretary of the Interior (1885–1888)
With the victory of Grover Cleveland in the 1884 presidential election, Lamar recommended several southerners for his cabinet. Despite the recommendations, Cleveland decided to nominate Lamar for Secretary of the Interior. The two shared similar views on many issues, and Lamar provided geographical balance to Cleveland's cabinet. While questions were raised over his involvement in the Confederacy and limited administrative experience, he was confirmed with little difficulty. As part of the first Democratic administration in 24 years, he was beseeched by members of his own party, especially those from the South, seeking political patronage. He engaged these requests, dismissing Republican officials for Democratic ones, though he did so cautiously.

As secretary, he reduced the department's fleet of carriages for high officials, as well as opposed efforts to dissolve Indian reservations. He forwarded a new Indian policy, encouraging citizenship and individual land-holding; he endorsed the Dawes Act of 1887. He favored conservationism with public lands to reduce threats of exploitation. He was a staunch defender of the Homestead Act of 1862, as he claimed it prevented mass exploitation of natural resources. Lamar also worked to reclaim over 45,000,000 acre, mostly from railroad corporations.

He served from March 6, 1885, to January 10, 1888.

Supreme Court (1888–1893)
In May 1887, Republican Justice William B. Woods died while in office, and following the reconvening of Congress, Lamar was nominated by Cleveland on December 12, 1887, without serious competition. Lamar was from the South just like the deceased justice, and he would be the first Southerner nominated to the court since the Civil War. As a result, Lamar's nomination "symbolized the road to reconciliation." The Republican-dominated Senate Judiciary Committee reported against his nomination because of lack of legal experience and old age; he was the second oldest nominee ever at the time. Thanks to the votes of a few western Republicans breaking from party leadership, Lamar was confirmed on January 16, 1888, by a close 32 to 28 vote. He took the judicial oath on January 18, 1888.

Lamar's time on the court was spent briefly under the Waite Court, with the rest under the Fuller Court. His service on the court is considered by some as unremarkable, though to others, the quality of his opinions he produced improved as his time on the court went on. Throughout his tenure, he authored 96 opinions, with him issuing 13 dissents from the court; overall, his opinions did not receive much opposition from other members of the court, with them only generating four dissents.

Death and legacy
Lamar died on January 23, 1893, in Vineville, Georgia. He was originally interred at Riverside Cemetery in Macon, Georgia, but was reinterred at St. Peter's Cemetery in Oxford, Mississippi, in 1894.

Lamar was later featured in John F. Kennedy's Pulitzer Prize–winning book, Profiles in Courage (1957), for his eulogy for Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner (R) in 1874, along with his support of the findings of a partisan congressional committee regarding the disputed presidential election of 1876, and for his unpopular vote against the Bland–Allison Act of 1878.

Memorials and namesakes
A variety of places have been named in Lamar's honor, including three U.S. counties: Lamar County, Alabama; Lamar County, Georgia; and Lamar County, Mississippi. Several communities are named for him, including ones in Arkansas, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Colorado, Mississippi, and Missouri. In Oxford, Mississippi, a building on the University of Mississippi's campus, Lamar Hall, and the main thoroughfare for the town, Lamar Avenue, are named for him. A road in Memphis is also named for him. The Lamar School in Meridian, MS, a former segregation academy, is named for L.Q.C. Lamar.

The east fork of the Yellowstone River in Yellowstone National Park is called the Lamar River, coined by geologist Arnold Hague during an 1884–85 Geological Survey. Similarly, Lamar Valley, and other park places are named in honor of Lamar as Secretary of the Interior. In Hot Springs National Park, the Lamar Bathhouse is named for him. During World War II, the Liberty Ship SS Lucius Q. C. Lamar was named for him.

Emory University had two named professorships in the School of Law that were named for Lamar. In April 2022, Emory removed Lamar's name from the professorships after a review by Emory's Committee on Naming Honors recommended that the name be changed due to his staunch defense of slavery.

title: Lucius Quintus Cincinnatus Lamar


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Hit parade

A hit parade is a ranked list of the most popular recordings at a given point in time, usually determined either by sales or airplay. The term originated in the 1930s; Billboard magazine published its first music hit parade on January 4, 1936. It has also been used by broadcast programs which featured hit (sheet music and record) tunes such as Your Hit Parade, which aired on radio and television in the United States from 1935 through the 1950s.

title: Hit parade