text:
Talk:Population bottleneck

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From the article:

 * All species being survivors in relation to the levels their environment support, there is reasonable thinking that says human beings are due for another bottleneck sometime soon.

 * Really? Please provide cites that this thinking is mainstream.

 * World population is rising rapidly. Each year there are far more births than the previous year. That situation is almost certain to continue for decades. Alfred Kinsey (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

That is not entirely true. Birth rates are now falling and numbers levelling off, though still projected to be above death rates for the next three decades.(UN and CIA figures)Logical Analyst (talk) 20:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

List of species
It seems like we could benefit from a separate article listing known species which have experienced a genetic bottleneck, eg. CA Condor, Blue Whales.

AIDS
Also, AIDS, whilst a disastrous pandemic, is not anywhere near the level needed for a bottleneck.

 * Not globally, but it is approaching (and projected to reach) that level in parts of Africa. (The Black Death was only a regional phenomenon, too.) Mkweise

 * AIDS is not at, nor projected to be anywhere near, the scale of the Black Death. Sub-Saharan Africans have very high birthrates, preventing a bottleneck. Alfred Kinsey (talk) 22:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

YPB
What is "ybp"? Uncommon abbreviations should either be spelled out in full the first time they are used in an article, or they should be linked to a glossary entry.

 * "Years before present" should be spelled out in full at the first encounter.--Wetman 12:52, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Drift
"as the rate of drift is inversely proportional to the population size." No, the rate of drift is a constant. This needs rethinking as well as rephrasing. --Wetman 12:52, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The rate of mutation may be constant; but the rate of genetic drift, ie the changes in the proportions of alleles in a population, does indeed become greater, the smaller the population size. -- Jheald 11:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

Put more simply, the changes in general population characteristics will be more rapid in a small population than in a large one. However, inverse proportionality is both unlikely and unprovable. The graph line is more likely to be somewhat hyperbolic.Logical Analyst (talk) 20:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Wisent or Bison?
Is the table in Example in the animal world section about wisent (European bison) or about American bison? The first row cites "Before 1492", so apparently it refers to the American Bison (arrival of Europeans is always considered a key point in American history); the second one cites 750 living bisons in 1890, and this could refer to both the European and American Bison; the third row clearly reports the number of European Bison (as told in American Bison there are thousand of living bison now). I'm going to assume that the table is about American Bison and fix consequently, if no one answer. GhePeU 21:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find a confirmation on the wisent having only 2 different versions of the Y-chromosomes, and I thought if it was so that the paper I read on genetic variation in the Wisent (Luerner et al., 2005) would have mentioned it. However, if you have a source that says there are 2 Y versions, please put it back in! and cite your source. Satyrium 15:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Near-Extinction evolution theory
Near-Extinction evolution theory was recently created. If there is anything there worth keeping it should be merged here. Zeimusu | Talk page 13:18, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No. I don't see anything of value in that article, so I'd rather not merge it here.  It seems a bit of puffery.  As to whether or not it should be deleted, I'll let others decide. Ted 03:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No. I'm in full agreement with TedE. Near-extinction seems very, very hypothetical, and doesn't add anything new and well-supported. Satyrium 15:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Since there was nothing to merge from the article (I concur with the above), and there weren't even any sources to move over, I've redirected that article here. -Harmil 07:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

DNA coalescence
As far as I know, DNA are expected to coalesce, even if there is no population bottleneck. So I changed that part (on Humans). That section would benefit from some outside sources. Krubo 13:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I tried to improved it. How does it look now? Fred Hsu 01:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Toba Catastrophe and coalescence
Re the discussion post above on human coalescence:

I think the section of the main article labeled "Humans" is now internally contradictory. It begins by saying that coalescence 70K years ago is to be expected and doesn't indicate a bottleneck. Then, the next two paragraphs discuss two theories as to why a bottleneck occurred.

Can somebody explain this apparent contradiction, or is the section actually cohesive, and I'm just not getting it?

If a contradiction does exist, I think the article should be edited to explain that coalescence is a matter of some controversy. --Tannerpittman 16:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please check the section again to see if the new wordings now clearly state these two contradictory views. Fred Hsu 01:40, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Calculation of time of bottleneck events
Can someone add a note or link about how bottleneck times are calculated? I presume that it's done by measurements of genetic variation compared to the background rate of genetic drift (complicated by differences in local sources of mutagenic events and variations in species ability to resist mutations, both mentioned in Deinococcus radiodurans). --Scott McNay 23:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

External bottleneck
User:MichaelCPrice made the following change indicating that genetic evidences do not contradct the Toba catastrophe theory because genetic evidences only disprove the existence of of "external bottleneck". What is an external bottleneck? Can someone provide some references? I am restoring the original version until more references are presented. Fred Hsu 14:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see the inline reference to The Ancestor's Tale in the previous paragraph. Based on numerous lineages of different genes, it has been determined that there were no population bottleneck. By bottleneck, researchers mean what is meant by population bottleneck, not a single breeding pair (probably what was meant by "external bottleneck"). Fred Hsu 15:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I wrote extremal, not external :-) And yes, I meant by this a single breeding pair.  A population bottleneck the hypothectical size produced by Toba (1,000-10,000?) would contain many lineages; hence convergence of gene lines (Y, mt or nuclear) is not mandatory, and hence does not conflict with the genetic evidence. --Michael C. Price talk 15:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I stand corrected. "Extremal".  I'll read more carefully next time.  I will go back to re-read these references to make sure.  But my understanding is that most researchers do not believe in a human population bottleneck, when all genes are taken into account.  Even though we are not talking about a single breeding pair, 1,000-10,000 is still a small population, and this should leave a definite signature on shape of the gene lineages, when the genome is considered as a whole. But no such evidence has been presented. Fred Hsu 15:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, bottleneck sizes can be inferred by the amount of exant variation, but it is certainly not true that more ancient genetic colascence times (such as mt-Eve at ~150kya) disprove the existence of more recent bottlenecks (such as Toba at 75kya).

 * Perhaps these paragraphs on various articles should be revised to talk about the shape of gene lineages as a whole, instead of just mentioning the discrepancies between mtDNA and Y-chromosome. Looking at just a few genes (e.g. mt, Y or a few nuclear genes) does not prove nor disprove bottleneck. It is the whole picture which is at odds with Toba catastrophe theory. Fred Hsu 16:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is, I don't know, but the statements about mt-Eve etc were incorrect and I have modified/reverted them.--Michael C. Price talk 16:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Notice that the Ancestor's Tale reference is in opposition to the bottleneck. I've rearrange the pargraphs to make that more clear. Fred Hsu 17:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale explicitly supports the volcanic bottleneck of c 70,000 ya. See the The Grasshopper's Tale, p416. I shall amend the article accordingly. --Michael C. Price talk 11:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a books.google and while a search turned up bottleneck it did not turn up Toba. FYI CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:47, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Which primate?
In the third paragraph of the "examples in animal world" section a mention is made of evdience that a certain primate species has suffered such a bottleneck. It seems like the species name should be given(along with a wikilink if there is a corresponding article) and maybe a citation. I know nothing about this myself so does anyone else know what this refers to? -Joshua Davis 01:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Malthus
This article does not explain the premises, symptoms, causes and effects of a population bottleneck in a species. Is it a heuristic theory? Is sounds anti-Malthusian anyway. Anwar (talk) 09:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Human bottleneck
A bottleneck in the Northern European population (not globally) seems pretty well established by now. One reference is here: "Genetic variability in a genomic region with long-range linkage disequilibrium reveals traces of a bottleneck in the history of the European population" by Claudia Schmegner1, Josef Hoegel1, Walther Vogel1 and Günter Assum1. http://www.springerlink.com/(p3nnrw55on33n5nobeur1533)/app/home/contribution.asp?backto=issue,14,19;journal,10,510;linkingpublicationresults,1:100421,1 but someone should really do some more research on the other articles referenced before modifying the main page.

 * Moved this thread here, no comment on it's anonymous and undated initial content or the related ones above. However the fact of a population bottleneck that produced the lack of genetic diversity in the surviving human species relative to the other great apes is well established. What is still controversial are the details, less so about when it occurred because this can be established by examination of the genome and more so about where and why. Either the section should be rewritten to show this or a new article created. Lycurgus (talk) 14:52, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

In summarizing reasons for the extinction of Neanderthals, C.B. Stringer says "Explanantions for their extinction have ranged widely from suggestions of disease or warfare through to economic competition from early modern humans." ("The Neanderthal-H. sapiens interface in Eurasia," Neanderthals Revisited, 2006, ed. K. Harvati and T. Harrison) That one glancing reference to "disease" is as far as I've gotten in advancing my attempt to explain mitochondrial Eve, the bottle neck in human evolution that occurred 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. My argument follows.

Was the "Bottleneck" the Common Cold?

There is an easy way to make the "out-of-Africa" and "multiregional" claims fit together. Suppose that early homo sapiens (the earliest forms of cro magnon, including so-called Neanderthal, dated pre 200,000 BP) developed in Africa and spread fairly broadly across Europe and Asia. Suppose then that a mutation developed in a small family in Africa that made those in that family resistant to a particular virus, which virus had not yet surfaced. They were resistant but not immune. Meanwhile, the rest of the early human population had no viral resistance. The mutated small family could survive the virus but continued to carry it. Then suppose the virus occurred. The resistant members of the population "had colds" and got over them. The non-resistant population died or were so debilitated that they could not bear and raise offspring, which offspring, if they did occur would die from "the cold." This small group, otherwise not distinguishable from the non-resistant group, flourished. As they traveled or migrated they carried a deadly virus with them that wiped out any homo sapiens they met.

With this scenario, we can explain the broad distribution of homo (sapiens or not, Cro Magnon or not) before the dating of mitochondrial "Eve." And we can still trace all humans back to the singular mother.

One-Paragraph Summary: Disease may have been the factor that decimated all homonids but a small disease-resistant population that developed in Africa 100,000 - 200,000 years ago. Archeologists who discuss the fairly sudden and very sweeping replacement of Neanderthals by Cro Magnons throughout Europe (and perhaps rather quickly the whole world) are presently split between those who argue that Homo Sapiens are a melding of two or more races of the same species (including Neanderthals and Cro Magnons, also possibly Java Men) and those who argue that Homo Sapiens came out of Africa as a single species that overwhelmed the rest of the Hominids around the world, having perhaps developed from mitochonrial "Eve" as recently as 200,000 years ago. "Out of Africa" experts describe the single species replacement in terms of Cro Magnon superiority, concentrating most frequently on intellectual superiority. They have DNA evidence on their side They tend to emphasize (exaggerate?) anatomical differences between Neanderthals and Cro Magnons in order to argue that Neanderthals were a separate species, an evolutionary dead end. The "melding" experts cite archeological evidence such as the variety of skull shapes and sizes, the early development of stone tools by Neanderthals, evidence of arts and crafts, and Ngandong fossils to bolster their case. What I have not seen is discussion of the possible role of disease in the Cro Magnon takeover. My commentary presents an hypothesis that disease was the factor that decimated all homonids but a small disease-resistant population. We are all descendents of this small population.

Commentary

Archeologists who discuss the fairly sudden and very sweeping replacement of Neanderthals by Cro Magnons throughout Europe (and perhaps rather quickly the whole world) are presently split between those who argue that Homo Sapiens are a melding of two or more races of the same species (including Neanderthals and Cro Magnons, also possibly Java Men) and those who argue that Homo Sapiens came out of Africa as a single species that overwhelmed the rest of the Hominids around the world, having perhaps developed from mitochonrial "Eve" as recently as 200,000 years ago. "Out of Africa" experts describe the single species replacement in terms of Cro Magnon superiority, concentrating most frequently on intellectual superiority. One can find conjecture about superior language use, better tool making ability, even greater artistic sense. They have DNA evidence on their side and develop conjectures about language superiority, sense of family and village cooperation, etc., to bolster their arguement. They tend to emphasize (exaggerate?) anatomical differences between Neanderthals and Cro Magnons in order to argue that Neanderthals were a separate species, an evolutionary dead end. The "melding" camp cites archeological evidence such as the variety of skull shapes and sizes, the early development of stone tools by Neanderthals, evidence of arts and crafts, Ngandong fossils to bolster their case. What I have not seen is discussion of the possible role of disease in the Cro Magnon takeover. We all know that smallpox and other communicable diseases wiped out tribes of American Indians as Europeans made first contact with them. Couldn't disease have played an important or the only role in Cro Magnon success?

Christopher Stringer, African Exodus, (p. 156 f.) asks "But if there were primitive humans in Africa 100,000 years ago, why did they take so long to reach Europe, Asia, Australia, and the Americas? . . . . Where were our ancestors lurking and what were they doing? Puzzling. There are few good answers to these questions." He continues from there to speculate about "population fluctuations. . . . These events -- called bottlenecks -- would have occurred when numbers crashed because of drought, volcanic eruptions, or other natural calamities. People perished, slicing their genetic individuality from posterity.    "Just consider our mitochondrial DNA's remarkable uniformity, a certain sign of a recent bottleneck."

Lewin seems to dismiss bottleneck as a factor without giving it much consideration. Apparently, all he means by this is that he knows of no catastrophe like a volcanic eruption or meteor strike that could cause a sudden population decline. However, I believe that Stringer's analysis is correct as far as it goes; unfortunately, it does not consider disease as the bottleneck event.

I propose the following as hypothetical steps: 1. A small group of African individuals developed a mutational resistance to viruses 200,000 years ago. At that time, there were no seriously debilitating viruses plaguing humankind, but the viruses that existed were carried by humans and other primates. In other words, the mutational ability to resist viruses was not made in a vacuum; the response occurred in reaction to existing, weak, but not debilitating, viruses. [Apparently neutralist theory would suggest that mutations could have arisen without a context. Mutations occur because they occur, not because environmental forces give rise to them. This may have been, but does not have to be, the case.] 2. This group of resistant individuals grew over the next 100,000 years to a group of 1,000 to 10,000 fairly closely related individuals populating one or more villages and sharing these villages with others who were in all ways similar except for this mutation. 3. Then one of the viruses that we associate with the common cold emerged from quiescence. Except for our 1000 - 10,000 resistant individuals, the rest of the population suffered from colds that did not let up or go away. Rather quickly they died. Offspring they bore died even more quickly. 4. The 1,000 - 10,000 resistant individuals had colds and carried the cold viruses, but had developed resistance. In these individuals, viral infection triggered the immune response by the activation of white cells which acted as killer cells. The resistant individuals recovered from the colds but as a group were never entirely free of the virus. 5. Any time these resistant individuals came in contact with others, they tended to infect them. Their contact left non-resistant others forever suffering from cold symptoms. The others soon died. If they propagated before they died, their offspring, born with colds, did not survive the first weeks of life. 6. The resistant individuals found themselves in an empty world. They thrived and propagated because they had little competition. In following decades, when their villages again filled up, they moved out from their home valley, and everywhere they went, they found populations either already decimated or very soon decimated after contact with the resistant ones (and the virus they carried). 7. These people were probably much like their neighbors across central Africa. They were no more nor less strong, fast, smart, verbal. Their only special trait was their ability to recover from the common cold. But as they grew in number, they found expansion to new areas to be easy. Wherever they went they found vacant villages or villages that soon became vacant. 8. Around 100,000 - 60,000 BP some Africans moved out of Africa and into the Middle East. These were non-resistant and uninfected Africans. In the Middle East they found themselves living near Neanderthal strangers who had moved south and east to escape the rigors of the penultimate Ice Age. The non-resistant Africans had little contact with these Neanderthals, but when they inevitably did have contact, they interbred somewhat successfully. They were of the same species, though genetically separated for over 200,000 years and different largely because of environmental factors. 9. The non-resistant Africans moved east, carrying with them some Neanderthal genetic material. As they drifted east, they came in contact with other early humans, also different because of separation for at least as long, but also of the same species. There may even have been some homo erectus peoples who were not necessarily (in fact probably not) of the same species. 10. Even as this eastern migration was taking place, members of the Cold-resistant, infected African population were moving into the south Mediteranean and the Middle East. As they moved, the resident populations died off, leaving them with little competition. 11. The resistant race also took over all of Africa. 12. The resident populations died off regardless of whether they were Neanderthal, African or Asian. 13. By 30,000 BP this new, thriving cold-resistant population had replaced other populations throughout Africa, Europe and Asia. The last group of Neanderthals had survived to 30,000 BP because they lived an isolated existence in remote French or Spanish locations where for generations they lived without contact with the resistant Africans. 14. Subsequently, the cold-resistant population populated Australia, the Pacific islands, the Americas. They may well have arrived in the Americas after an earlier migration by non-resistant homonids, but when they came in contact with these peoples, the non-resistant died off quickly. 15. This population, having arisen (or descended) from a very small number of individuals, carried the unique traits of that group of individuals. They had anatomical features that were different from Neanderthals. These differences made them perhaps more articulate, perhaps quicker, even more graceful, perhaps, but not necessarily smarter. Whatever their qualities, they are us. Whether we trace our origins to Africa, Europe, Asia, Australia, America, it makes no difference. We have the same ancestors and a much tighter genetic bond than individuals of most species have. Genetically, we have hardly changed over this span of time.

Cautions: any of the following might be true without disqualifying my basic argument: a) The disease was not the common cold but some other disease. The common cold is the best candidate because it is one we have a resistance to but not an immunity to. (We develop temporary immunities to colds that infect us, but there are around 200 cold viruses, more than any of us are likely to confront in our lifetimes.)    b) Neanderthals were a separate species, genetically incapable of breeding with Africans but still susceptible to a disease the Africans carried but were resistant to. c) In spite of their large brains, Neanderthals were not very smart and/or did not have adequate language skills.   d) The lighter skeletons of Africans were (or were not) genetically connected to the mutations that made them  resistant to colds (or other disease). e) The different skull shapes were (or were not) genetically connected to their resistance to colds (or other disease).

I believe this hypothesis unifies the findings of most Archeologists and leads to a consistent theory of human development. I would be interested in suggestions of how to test it or explanations of why it is faulty. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezekial Bargrove (talk o  contribs) 21:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Also, with the possible exception of some religious actors, nobody thinks there was a single breeding pair. The estimates I've seen range from a little under a thousand to around 20 thousand. The current text of the section distorts the established scientific consensus. Lycurgus (talk) 10:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Selection on non-existing genes?
The lead contains the following sentence: These new selective pressures may have acted on genetic variation that has already drifted out of the population. I think it says that at a certain past time selection may have acted on gene alleles that weren't there, because they had drifted to extinction. But selection cannot work on non-existing alleles. I think the intention was to say that some alleles that have been in the population but are no longer here because of drift would have been positively selected on by the present environment if it wasn't for the fact that they are gone. --Ettrig (talk) 07:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have left a message on the student's talk page welcoming them to the world of peer review!--JimmyButler (talk) 15:52, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input! That is what I meant when I said that; sorry if my wording was a bit confusing. I will change the sentence now. I'll probably use your words, so I hope that is okay.--Rebekah best (talk) 22:51, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, thanks for letting me fix it myself. I get points for keeping track of my edits.--Rebekah best (talk) 23:01, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Little adaptation in small populations?
This article says: Population bottlenecks reduce the genetic variation and thereby also the population's ability to adapt to new selective pressures. This contrasts with punctuated equilibrium that says: ''Smaller populations on the other hand, which are isolated from the parental stock, are decoupled from the homogenizing effects of gene flow. In addition, pressure from natural selection is especially intense, as peripheral isolated populations exist at the outer edges of ecological tolerance.'' One says little adaptation in small populations, the other says more adaptation in smaller populations. Is there a real conflict here? Can the differences be clarified? --Ettrig (talk) 06:06, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for all of your help! I don't, however, think there is any real conflict. I think that in punctuated equilibrium the main point of those statements was to show the importance of a large population in achieving equilibrium. Natural selection is more accelerated and more likely to occur in small and isolated populations in order to meet new pressures. It is also more necessary in these conditions. I don't believe that my statements were contradicting this. When I put them in there I only wanted to stress the fact that population bottleneck can cause issues for natural selection if it eliminates alleles that could have been useful. Small and isolated populations are the best opportunities for natural selection and speciation, but not if those populations lack a variety of alleles. If you still feel like some things need to be resolved, let me know and we can work it out. Also, feel free to make any changes you see as necessary. Thanks!--Rebekah best (talk) 20:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Critical number
Can anything be found/included about what happens when a bottleneck occurs such that the remaining population will go extinct? Like is there even such a thing as a critical mass or something? Another question comes up: would that information be better served in a different article (Extinction)? NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

term 'unfavoured' needs quantification.
from the extant article:

"...inbreeding and genetic homogeneity increases and unfavoured alleles can accumulate."

Consanguinious relations over multiple generations yield a decrease in deleterious recessive alleles, not an increase in them. Because inbreeding increases the probability of recessive traits being expressed, when those traits decrease the fitness of the individual, the individual is unlikely to survive long enough to pass the genes on to another generation.

--Vitki1963 (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)Vitki1963

Cheetah
According to its article in the Wikipedia the cheetah went through a population bottleneck, too. Should that be mentioned in the article?--Maxl (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

European Bison in South Dakota
"'The animals living today are all descended (except those in South Dakota at the time), from 12 individuals ...'" This really could do with some explanation. What were European Bison doing in South Dakota? Were they reintroduced into the gene pool? -- Q Chris (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Genetic Drift
It seems as if the concept of genetic drift is misused in this article. In Wikipedia's article on genetic drift itself, it says that it's random, which is how I always understood it. But in the population bottleneck article, it is said to be a result of the bottleneck. That's not random. 142.254.109.112 (talk) 13:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

930 Kya human population crash to 1,280
FYI.

Subject articles:

NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/31/science/human-survival-bottleneck.html

Original paper: https://doi.org/10.1126/science.abq7487

—Danorton (talk) 14:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Neolithic reproductive patterns
''The Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck refers to a period around 5000 BC where the diversity in the male y-chromosome dropped precipitously, to a level equivalent to reproduction occurring with a ratio between men and women of 1:17.[12] Discovered in 2015[13] the research suggests that the reason for the bottleneck was not a reduction in the number of males, but a drastic decrease in the percentage of males with reproductive success. ''

This isn't correct. The data doesn't necessarily show that only one man had reproductive success for every seventeen women (i.e., that a lot of women shared a few men), and the sources don't claim that. It says that one Y-chromosome line survived for every seven mitochondrial lines, and the more recent source (and the paper it's based on) says that this most likely is due to differences in kinship impacts along the male and female lines. For example, let's assume that Al and Ally are completely monogamous and have several sons and several daughters. If all of Al and Ally's sons' sons' sons stay in the Alson tribe, but all of Al and Ally's daughters' daughters' daughters have married into a dozen surrounding tribes, then the Alson tribe dying out wipes out Al's Y-chromosome but not Ally's mitochondrial line, even though Ally and Al have (and always will have) exactly the same number of surviving descendants and therefore the same reproductive success. And if this happens over and over with a whole bunch of patrilineal tribes, as it apparently did, then eventually you have a lot less Y-chromosome variation than mitochondrial variation.

I'm not sure how to express this in Wikipedia-style prose. Can anyone help me with that? Starry Void (talk) 06:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Population bottleneck


text:
Hal Lindsey

Harold Lee Lindsey (born November 23, 1929) is an American evangelical writer and television host. He wrote a series of popular apocalyptic books – beginning with The Late Great Planet Earth (1970) – asserting that the Apocalypse or end time (including the rapture) was imminent because current events were fulfilling Bible prophecy. He is a Christian Zionist and dispensationalist.

Biography
Lindsey graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary with a Master of Theology degree, majoring in the New Testament and early Greek literature. With his second wife, Jan, he worked with Campus Crusade for Christ and continued with them until 1969. He then helped a mission in Southern California which continued until 1976. He was also a frequent speaker and Sunday School teacher at Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, California. During 1969, he wrote his first, and best-known book, The Late Great Planet Earth. Published during 1970 by Zondervan, this book became a bestseller. Coming on the heels of the Six-Day War, the book fueled the popularity of dispensationalism and its support of ethnic Jews as the "chosen people of God". Many of Lindsey's later writings are sequels or revisions and extensions of his first book. In 1994, he earned his Doctorate of Theology from the California Graduate School of Theology.

Lindsey hosted International Intelligence Briefing on the Trinity Broadcasting Network and serves on the executive board of Christian Voice. International Intelligence Briefing was eliminated from broadcasting by TBN for the entire month of December 2005. Lindsey claimed that this was because "some at the network apparently feel that [his] message is too pro-Israel and too anti-Muslim." TBN owner Paul Crouch, however, contended that "TBN has never been and is not now against Israel and the Jewish people." Crouch said that Lindsey's show was pre-empted for Christmas programming.

Lindsey resigned from TBN on January 1, 2006, and indicated that he would pursue another television ministry. His new program, The Hal Lindsey Report, emphasizes biblical prophecy and current events, and is broadcast by the Angel One and DayStar networks. During January 2007, Lindsey announced that he would be returning to the TBN network. The Hal Lindsey Report is broadcast by TBN with his own financing.

Biblical interpretations
Lindsey's claims are based on a dispensationalist interpretation of the Old and New Testament. Lindsey claims from the Bible that Jesus Christ will return from heaven to earth someday and establish eternal peace and harmony among all people.

Lindsey claims the Bible contains numerous prophecies that foretell of certain conditions and events that will occur in the world prior to Christ's return and that as these things occur, they are to serve as signs and reminders that we are in the era that the Bible calls the end times or last days. Lindsey believes a prophetic event that officially begins the end times is the regathering of the Jewish people to their ancient homeland to form an independent nation after a prolonged worldwide dispersion. He claims that the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948 is the fulfillment of this major prophecy.

In The Late Great Planet Earth, Lindsey wrote that the biblical prophets identified certain nations that would ally with other countries to form "four major spheres of political power" during the same era that Israel would be reestablished as a nation. Lindsey wrote that these nations and their allies can be identified as: (1) Russia with its allies, (2) China with other nations of the Orient, (3) Egypt with other Middle East countries, and (4) an alliance of Western European nations.

According to Lindsey, the alliance of Western European nations is a revived form of the ancient Roman Empire, predicted in the books of Daniel and Revelation symbolically as ten horns and ten kings. In The Late Great Planet Earth, Lindsey quotes from a 1969 Time magazine article that the goal of the European Economic Community, which preceded the European Union, was to establish a ten-nation economic community. Lindsey concludes, based on this and other sources, that this alliance will help cause the fulfillment of this prophecy and will ultimately be ruled by the Antichrist.

Lindsey noted that the prophets did not refer to the United States of America directly or indirectly. He concluded that this is an indication that the U.S. will no longer be a great geo-political power by the time the Tribulation of the end times arrives.

In a later book, titled, The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon, he indicated that he believed it was possible that the battle of Armageddon could occur in the not too distant future, stating, "the decade of the 1980s could very well be the last decade of history as we know it." He noted again that there is no reference to the U.S. in Bible prophecy. He listed a few scenarios that seemed plausible to him at the time: (1) A takeover by communists, (2) destruction by a surprise Soviet nuclear attack, or (3) becoming a dependent of the 10-nation European community. The book was on the New York Times bestseller list for more than 20 weeks.

Books

 * The Late Great Planet Earth (1970) w/ C.C. Carlson
 * Homo Sapiens: Extinction or Evacuation (1971)
 * Reprint as World's Final Hour: Evacuation or Extinction (1976)
 * Satan Is Alive and Well on Planet Earth (1972) w/ Carole C. Carlson
 * The Late Great Planet Earth Song Book (1972), w/ Fred Bock
 * The Guilt Trip: How to Realize God's Forgiving Love (1972)
 * How to Prepare for Armageddon (1972, multiple authors)
 * The Liberation of Planet Earth (1974)
 * The Promise (1974)
 * Hal Lindsey's There's a New World Coming (1974, comic book)
 * When is Jesus Coming Again (1974, multiple authors)
 * There's a New World Coming: An In-Depth Analysis of the Book of Revelation (1975, 1984)
 * Hope for the Terminal Generation (1976)
 * The Events That Changed My Life (1977)
 * The 1980's: Countdown to Armageddon (1980)
 * The Rapture: Truth or Consequences (1983)
 * Prophetical Walk Through the Holy Land (1983)
 * Combat Faith (1986)
 * The Road to Holocaust (1990)
 * Israel and the Last Days (1991)
 * The Rise of Babylon and the Persian Gulf Crisis: A Special Report (1991) w/ Chuck Missler
 * Planet Earth 2000 A.D.: Will Mankind Survive? (1994)
 * The Final Battle (1995)
 * Amazing Grace (1995)
 * Steeling the Mind of America (1995, multiple authors)
 * Blood Moon (1996)
 * The Messiah (1996)
 * Apocalypse Code (1997)
 * Planet Earth: The Final Chapter (1999)
 * Vanished into Thin Air: The Hope of Every Believer (1999)
 * Combat Faith: Unshakable Faith for Every Day (1999)
 * The Greatest Gift: God's Amazing Grace (1999)
 * Facing Millennium Midnight (1999) w/ Cliff Ford
 * The Promise of Bible Prophecy (2000)
 * Why Do We Have Trials? (2001)
 * The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad (2002)
 * Faith for Earth's Final Hour (2003)

Foreword by Hal Lindsey

 * Birth of the Body: Acts 1-12 (1974) by Ray C. Stedman
 * The Coming Russian Invasion of Israel (1974) by Thomas McCall and Zola Levitt
 * The Beautiful Side of Evil (1982) by Johanna Michaelsen
 * Like Lambs to the Slaughter (1989) by Johanna Michaelsen
 * The Magog Invasion (1995) by Chuck Missler
 * Happy Days and Dark Nights (1996) by Jerry and Susanne McClain with Marsha Gallardo
 * The Shadow of the Apocalypse: When All Hell Breaks Loose (2004) by Paul Crouch
 * Personal Revival: Come Near, Come Now, Come Alive (2007) by Gary Galbraith
 * America's Coming Judgment: Where is Our Hope? (2017) by Thomas J. Hughes

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Hal Lindsey


text:
Talk:Himalayan vulture

Untitled
I've put back capitals which are correct for English species' names. Thus vultures, but Griffon Vulture.jimfbleak 17:19 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Himalayan vulture


text:
User talk:Kabads

Here's a belated welcome! I hope you're enjoying yourself. -- Stephen Gilbert 17:27 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks Stephen - this has turned out to be a new dawn for me in looking at new technologies. I've started looking at the whole wiki culture and am thinking of installing it on the Company's intranet. Thanks again Kabads

 * == Computer / Video games ==

Hi Kabads - in the past you've worked on the Computer game and Video game pages - if you're still interested, I'm looking at drafting a reorganisation at Talk:Computer game/Computer and video games. Take a look, and edit or comment! Mark Richards 18:10, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi Kabads - using your user page, your web site and friendsreunited, I think I've managed to work out who you are. If I'm correct, I was in the same year as you at the Hurst. Nice to hear from you - hope life's been treating you well since 1985! (message copied from my talk page, just in case you aren't watching it) --Lancevortex 10:47, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cinerama
I moves Cinerama (band) to its own page, in case you want to make some links to it. (I don't know anything about them.) Mike Mackerm 18:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know Mike. I'll put a new watch on it. Kabads 12:39, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

William James
I'd like to know why you have removed a link on the pages hypnosis to William James. William James is the most important person in the american psychology, also called the father of american psychology. Each person studying psychology in America studies also some works of William James and they could be interested in knowing his point of view. More, it adds credibility to the subject of hypnosis as reading that Wiliam James worked on it shows that it is important. On the page hypnosis we have links to various institute and persons less important than him. Note that the link was only on an excerpt of a choices of pages speaking exclusively of hypnotism. May be it was just a mistake from your side. Thanks for your answer.

 * Apologies - was a little harsh - there were a few of these appearing. Have now reinstated. Thanks for your contribution and time. Kabads 20:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgot sig.
Just thought I'd let you know that you seemed to forget your sig in the list of windmills vfd. You did read the part of the nomination where I mentioned that no windmills were listed on that page when you voted, right? The reasoning behind your vote seems very strange to me in light of this fact, but if that's really what you meant, I guess that's the way things are. - RedWordSmith 19:49, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * thanks redwordsmith - i was in a hurry when I voted. Although that page does not have any windmills on it, it could easily hold them, in the same way that we have list of comedians, etc. I will try and change the format of it when I have more time. Kabads
 * Ok, fair enough. Don't forget to go back and add your sig. Understand that I'm not against the idea of a list of windmills, I just fail to see any point in a blank list, or even (as it stands right now) a list with a handful of items. This is why I tried running it through cleanup first. - RedWordSmith 23:28, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Tadley
I see that you removed the reference to Tadley Treacle Mines from the Tadley page. 60 years ago Tadley was famous for its treacle mines :) 24.35.40.193 21:53, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC) I dont know what happened above, I got logged out and did not notice Oldfarm 22:00, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jack Hargreaves
Hi Kabads. I see you have reinserted the photo I removed from the article on Jack Hargreaves. It's no big deal but I have so many photos of my stepfather that I thought I'd take that one out because it wasn't one of him when younger and so damaged the sequence of pictures in the article. I thought that at some later date I would insert a carefully posed picture he had made of himself (on a postcard) in the 1930s that is quite striking and inconsistent with his later image.http://www.flickr.com/photo_settings.gne?id=506630864&photos_url=%2Fphotos%2Fsibadd%2Fpage2%2F What do you think? Simon Baddeley 22:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi Simon, thanks for your explanation. It makes perfect sense to me. Go ahead and make your edits. The link to flickr is to a private page and so I can't see the photo you are planning to publish. Kabads 05:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Openwengo screenshot.png
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Invitation to join the Fifteen Year Society
Dear ,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more.

Best regards, Urhixidur (talk) 15:14, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Oddlabs

The article Oddlabs has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "lack of notability"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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title: User talk:Kabads


text:
Hal Linden

Hal Linden (born Harold Lipshitz, March 20, 1931) is an American stage and screen actor, television director and musician.

Linden began his career as a big band musician and singer in the 1950s. After a stint in the United States Army, he began an acting career, first working in summer stock and off-Broadway productions. Linden found success on Broadway when he replaced Sydney Chaplin in the musical Bells Are Ringing. In 1962, he starred as Billy Crocker in the off-Broadway revival of the Cole Porter musical Anything Goes. In 1971, he won a Best Actor Tony Award for his portrayal of Mayer Rothschild in the musical The Rothschilds.

In 1974, Linden landed his best-known role as the title character in the television comedy series Barney Miller. The role earned him seven Primetime Emmy nominations and three Golden Globe Award nominations. During the series' run, Linden also hosted two educational series, Animals, Animals, Animals and FYI. He won two special Daytime Emmy Awards for the latter series. Linden won a third Daytime Emmy Award for a guest-starring role on CBS Schoolbreak Special in 1995. Linden has since continued his career on the stage, in films and guest-starring roles on television. He released his first album of pop and jazz standards, It's Never Too Late, in 2011.

Early life
Hal Linden was born on March 20, 1931, in The Bronx, New York City, New York, the youngest son of Frances (née Rosen) and Charles Lipshitz, a Lithuanian Jew who immigrated to the United States in 1910 and owned a printing shop. Hal's older brother, Bernard, became a professor of music at Bowling Green State University. Linden attended Herman Ridder Junior High School and the High School of Music and Art, going on to study music at Queens College, City University of New York. He later enrolled in Baruch College and then City College of New York where he received a Bachelor of Arts in business.

During his youth, Linden wanted to be a big band singer and bandleader. Before embarking on a career in music, he decided to change his name, stating, "'Swing and Sway with Harold Lipshitz' just didn't parse." While riding on a bus from Philadelphia to New York through the town of Linden, New Jersey, he saw the name Linden on the water tower and changed his name to Hal Linden. During the 1950s, he toured with Sammy Kaye, Bobby Sherwood, and other big bands of the era. Linden played the saxophone and clarinet and also sang.

He enlisted in the United States Army in 1952 and was sent to Fort Belvoir and played in the United States Army Band. While he was in Fort Belvoir, a friend recommended that he see the touring production of Guys and Dolls playing in Washington, D.C. After seeing the show, Linden decided to become an actor. He was discharged from the Army in 1954.

Career
Linden replaced Sydney Chaplin in the Broadway production of Bells Are Ringing in 1958. He made a further breakthrough on the New York City stage in 1962 when he was cast as Billy Crocker in the revival of Cole Porter's Anything Goes.

Linden's career slowed in the 1960s. During this time, he dubbed English dialogue for various foreign films, did voiceover work for commercials and sang jingles, and performed in industrial musicals such as Diesel Dazzle (1966). His career was revived in the 1970s when he was cast as Mayer Rothschild in the 1971 musical The Rothschilds. The role earned him a Tony Award for Best Actor in a Musical. In 1973, he co-starred opposite Tony Lo Bianco in the NBC television film ''Mr. Inside/Mr. Outside''. The film was intended to be the pilot for a proposed series but was not picked up by the network.

Barney Miller
In 1974, Linden landed the starring role in the ABC television police sitcom Barney Miller. He portrayed the eponymous captain of the 12th Precinct in Greenwich Village, Manhattan, New York City. He earned seven Emmy Award nominations for his work on the series. Linden is tied with Matt LeBlanc and John Goodman for the most Outstanding Lead Actor in a Comedy Series Emmy Award nominations without ever winning. He also earned four Golden Globe Award nominations for Best Actor in a Musical or Comedy. The series aired from 1975 to 1982. Linden later said that leaving Broadway to work on Barney Miller was his most irrational act and also one of his best decisions.

During the run of Barney Miller, Linden served as the narrator and host of the ABC children's shows Animals, Animals, Animals and FYI. He won two Daytime Emmys for Outstanding Individual Achievement for his host work on FYI. in 1984 and 1985.

Later career
After Barney Miller ended in 1982, Linden appeared in several television films, including I Do! I Do! (1982), the television adaptation of the musical of the same name, and Starflight: The Plane That Couldn't Land (1983). Also in 1982, he was the producers' first choice for the starring role of Dr. Donald Westphall in St. Elsewhere, but he turned down the opportunity without reading the script or meeting the producers because he wanted to take a break from television. (The role was then given to Ed Flanders.)

In 1984, he costarred in the television film Second Edition. The film was intended to be a series but was not picked up by CBS. The following year, Linden portrayed studio head Jack L. Warner in the television biopic My Wicked, Wicked Ways: The Legend of Errol Flynn.

In 1986, Linden returned to episodic television in the NBC series Blacke's Magic. He played the lead character, Alexander Blacke, a magician who solves mysteries with the help of his father Leonard (Harry Morgan), a retired carnival magician and sometimes confidence man. The series was canceled after 13 episodes. In 1988, he co-starred in the romantic comedy A New Life, directed by Alan Alda. In 1991 he guest-starred in an episode of “The Golden Girls” in the part of John Neretti, Bea Arthur’s character’s love interest. In 1992, Linden tried his hand at television again with the leading role in the comedy-drama series Jack's Place. In the series, Linden portrayed Jack Evans, a retired jazz musician who ran a restaurant that was frequented by patrons who learned lessons about love. The show was often compared to The Love Boat by critics as it featured a different weekly guest star. The series premiered as a mid-season replacement but did well enough in the ratings for ABC to order additional episodes. Viewership soon declined and ABC chose to cancel the series in 1993. The next year, Linden appeared in the CBS sitcom The Boys Are Back. That series was also low rated and canceled after 18 episodes. In 1995, Linden won his third Daytime Emmy Award for his 1994 guest-starring role as Rabbi Markovitz on CBS Schoolbreak Special.

In 1996, Linden had a supporting role in the television film The Colony, opposite John Ritter and June Lockhart. The role was a departure for Linden as he played the villainous head of a home owner's association of a gated community. In 1999, he had a guest role in the last The Rockford Files reunion TV film, The Rockford Files: If It Bleeds... It Leads. In 1997, he played Ebeneezer Scrooge in the yearly Madison Square Garden production of A Christmas Carol. He continued his career in the late 1990s and 2000s with guest roles on Touched by an Angel, The King of Queens, Gilmore Girls, Law & Order: Criminal Intent, and Hot in Cleveland. He also narrated episodes of Biography and The American Experience, and voiced Dr. Selig on the animated series The Zeta Project. In 2002, Linden received a Golden Palm Star on the Palm Springs, California, Walk of Stars.

In 2008, he played Arvide Abernathy in Guys and Dolls at Hilbert Circle Theatre. Linden continued to have an active stage career. He appeared in the Toronto production of Tuesdays with Morrie in 2009. In July 2011, he appeared opposite Christina Pickles in the Colony Theatre's production of On Golden Pond. In 2011, Linden starred in a touring production of Shine featuring local professional talent. Linden also starred in Under My Skin, which premiered at the Pasadena Playhouse on September 19, 2012, and ran through October 2012. In 2013, Linden guest-starred in a season eight episode of Supernatural as a rabbi. In 2014, Linden guest-starred in an episode of the comedy series 2 Broke Girls. In 2015, he appeared at the Old Globe Theatre in the West Coast premiere of The Twenty Seventh Man starring as Yevgeny Zunser.

Music
After the success of Barney Miller, Linden decided to revive his music career with a nightclub act. In his act, Linden played the clarinet, performed pop and Broadway standards backed by a big band, and discussed his life and career.

In March 2011, he began touring with the cabaret show An Evening with Hal Linden: I'm Old Fashioned. The show, which ran through 2012, was later released on DVD. In April 2011, Linden released his first album, It's Never Too Late. The album features a collection of jazz, Broadway and pop standards that Linden began recording around the time he was touring in the early 1980s. Due to a lack of interest, he shelved the songs. Linden decided to finish the album on the advice of his tour booker.

Personal life
Linden is the spokesman for the Jewish National Fund, a position he has held since 1997.

Linden met dancer Fran Martin while doing summer stock in 1955. They married in 1958 and had four children. Martin died in 2010.

In 1984, Linden narrated a short film on former President Harry S. Truman, which was shown during that year's Democratic National Convention.

title: Hal Linden


text:
Talk:Annie Dillard

Comment
"She quite the Catholic Church and Christianity" I think that should be "quit".

Her page said she died tomorrow? It's 1/11/18, and it says she died on 1/12/18? There's no sourcing for this death and I can't find any proof with a simple search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.66.30.73 (talk) 01:06, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it's fake, as it would be in some media by now if true. Also, she appears to have no connection to Southern California. Her husband has a link to Key West, which is on the wrong side of the country. I removed what I judge to be vandalism by the user "2600:1004:b103:513f:a036:74e7:e96e:54d9".--Quisqualis (talk) 06:22, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Comment
Can anyone give a source for her birth name (Meta Annie Doak)? I am compiling some more info for this entry, but have thusfar been unable to verify the "Meta" name using any print sources. Thanks much! --amysayrawr 00:19, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

other facts [ more to be added later ]
 * wrote essays, poetry, memoirs, literary criticism
 * carefull formulations, observations, metaphysical insights
 * Tickets: poetry, first publication
 * Pilgrim: inspired by Thoreau's Walden. Tinker Creek in Virginia's Roanoke Valley. D. lived there (observing nature, reading and writing)

some interlinking with american nature writers, John Muir and Thoreau especially, would be useful;

Any reason that I should not add a page about An American Childhood?--the authentic david christians (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment
Does anyone else find it funny that an article about an author is in need of a clean-up for grammar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.68.46 (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Structural Changes
I have made structural changes to this article to improve readability. I retained all existing information, but in is some cases made minor wording changes. I added facts from An American Childhood. I hope people find the changes agreeable.

Isegot 11:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isegot (talk • contribs)

Edit
"She quit the Catholic Church and Christianity; she 'stayed near Christianity and Hasidism.' "

Where does this quote come from? It is not on her website, as it is cited, and as far as I can tell it originates from Wikipedia (which may be one of the reasons she says on her website that almost everything this article says about her is wrong). It sort of sounds like something she might say, but I'm going to take it off. Please put it back if you find a source!

Furthermore, I can't find evidence that she "quit the Catholic Church and Christianity." If she has recently, it doesn't belong with this book description. She did an interview about this book (For the Time Being) with a Catholic magazine where the interviewer said, "You take what could be called an ecumenical approach in your writing by drawing from the rich thinking of important figures from many different religious traditions. And yet you remain a Christian, a Catholic." Dillard replies: "That's right." And later: "I find the Hasids particularly rich in insight." (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Natural+wonders-a057088517). These replies seem to make better sense of what is on her website than what is currently in this article. So I'm going to add them.

75.70.204.208 (talk) 02:01, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I went back and read some more of the article. What a mess! And so many things are cited as being on her website aren't there. Such as: "Neurologist Andrew Budson, then at Harvard, wrote that Dillard was "almost unbelievably intelligent." (I can't find this anywhere else, either.)

So many of the book descriptions are just weird if you've actually read them. 75.70.204.208 (talk) 02:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree with you: the article is a right mess. I believe your removals were called for, and more can be done.  (Although this quote cracked me up, it can probably go since it's strangely cited to her website: "Frederick Buechner called it 'A rare and precious book.' Other reviewers wondered if she took hallucinogenic drugs. She says, 'No.'" Ha!).  I'm in the process of writing Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, so I may help out here while I do the necessary research. María ( yllo  submarine ) 03:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

hi everyone. here is her website with the quotes: http://www.anniedillard.com/books-annie-dillard.html (not sure about the neurologist one). all of our timing is strange! maybe we just all have extra time over Tgiving...i had written her about the missing quotes (she was my teacher), and she fixed the website today. 75.70...I wrote you a private talk apologizing for removing the Free Library quote. I only did that because she says she currently has "no religion...or many religions," but I didn't mean to be hasty and i saw your talk after I did it. It's a good quote (more appropriate than what's there) and i will put it back up, I'm sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liveturtle (talk • contribs) 20:14, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

oops, forgot to sign above. and wanted to add: above i referred to the old quote on her homepage that she has "no religion, or many religions," but that's not there any more! Liveturtle (talk) 20:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

 * The long holiday weekend certainly didn't hurt. :) I've been meaning to expand Pilgrim at Tinker Creek since I created the article about four years ago, but I'm just now getting around to it.  I'm glad the quotes can be attributed to the books section of her official website, but the material that uses the books section as a reference should link to the books section, not the mainpage -- this mix up is why 75.70.204.208 and I assumed that the website was being cited erroneously.  In short, the quotes should link to http://www.anniedillard.com/books-annie-dillard.html, not http://www.anniedillard.com, since that's where they come from.  I can reformat the citations, if you'd like?

 * Second, the article still needs an awful lot of work as far as professionalism and non-essaylike writing, which the quotes may be inadvertently adding to. That's something we can easily work on, though!  BTW, a few days ago I contacted Dillard's literary agent for permission to use the photograph on her official website here on Wikipedia, and they agreed!  The image is currently here, but it's waiting for the permission to be acknowledged before we can use it in articles. María ( yllo  submarine ) 20:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Note: I've started work on reformatting the cites, but I'll have to continue later. I've run into issues with plagiarizing, which is a rather time-consuming but all important task.  Be sure that when quoting material from websites (even an author's official site) that you don't simply copy-and-paste: either include quotes where applicable, or paraphrase.  See Plagiarism for more info.  I'll try to get it sorted out, but there's a lot of cleaning to be done. María ( yllo  submarine ) 21:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Unverified Assertion
The following opinion drawn from American Childhood suggests that Dillard's difference with the church was resolved by C.S. Lewis: "As an adolescent she quit attending church because of "hypocrisy." When she told her minister of her decision, he gave her a stack of books by C. S. Lewis, and that resolved her rebellion." Based on the text of page 228, I don't see the grounds for drawing this conclusion. I'm going to remove "that resolved her rebellion" and add her interpretation of C.S. Lewis. See below the passage from page 228 regarding C.S. Lewis:

"If the all-powerful creator directs the world, then why all this suffering? Why did the innocents die in the camps, and why do they starve in the cities and farms? Addressing this question, I found thirty pages written thousands of years ago, and forty pages written in 1955. They offered a choice of fancy language saying, "Forget it," or serenely worded, logical-sounding answers that so strained credibility (pain is God's megaphone) that "Forget it" seemed in comparison a fine answer. I liked, however, C.S. Lewis's effort to defuse the question. The sum of human suffering we needn't worry about: There is plenty of suffering, but no one ever suffers the sum of it."

The chapter ends with the assistant minister suggesting that she will return to the church, to which Dillard writes: "Humph, I thought, Pshaw." --Isegot 02:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isegot (talk • contribs)

Philanthropy section
This section may have been correct as of 2011. However, there is no mention of paintings for sale on her official website as of April 13, 2016. So, this should be removed or rewritten in the past tense. If the latter, I would not know how to cite a webpage that can no longer be retrieved. Thanks. 148.159.128.51 (talk) 13:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Annie Dillard


text:
Talk:Ship of the line

French Shipbuilding
"Although Spain, the Netherlands, and France built huge fleets, and in France's case even with better ships, they were rarely able to match the skill of British naval crews." From what I've read, this is untrue: http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-057.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.84.26 (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Only surviving ship-of-the-line
I was wondering- does the USS Constitution count as a ship-of-the-line? If so, then the Victory isn't the only one surviving. 64.2.133.78 (talk) 02:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

 * No, the Constitution is a frigate. I don't know if there's another ship of the line left besides Victory, but Old Ironsides isn't it.
 * Pirate Dan (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Wasa can be considered a partially surviving ship of the line...

Rating system
The rating system should perhaps have its own page. Stan Shebs 17:30 Feb 22, 2003 (UTC)

The rating system needs a brief overview of who used it and when, for example "The rating system given in this table was used by the Royal Navy from the 17th century to the 19th century." And something about how it related to the rating systems (if any) used by other navies. Gdr 13:07, 2004 Jun 23 (UTC)

 * Moved rating system to Rating system of the Royal Navy and moved first-rate article with pictures to here. Petersam 03:11, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rating systems were certainly in use in other navies, notably the French Navy, so this needs to be described. Rif Winfield 09:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

First paragraph is navigational aid
Please do not remove the first paragraph as it functions as a quick navigational aid to the other articles in this series. Thank you. Petersam 20:40, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I did change it. The whole article is about the ship-of-the-line.  The lead paragraph focused too much on the line-of-battle tactic when it should have just been an introductory paragraph on the line-of-battle-ship.  There was also a line which smacked of personal opinion, i.e. "it is not correct to call them battleships..."

 * It's called accuracy, correct spelling, grammar, and flow of thought. Carajou 22:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Note that the term line-of-battle ship never had any formal significance. This is why it is correct to refer to all capital ships as ship-of-the-line up until the end of the wooden-hulled battle fleet in about 1860 (including the brief period of steam-assisted ships-of-the-line!). It is also misleading to refer - as is done at the start of the article - to the modern battleship as being derived from the ship-of-the-line. In fact the battleship developed from the frigate, since like the frigate it carried its main armament on one deck; indeed, you will note that the Warrior and her early descendents were formally rated as frigates for several years from 1859 onwards. The term 'battleship' was a late Victorian concoction to describe what the iron (later steel) capital ship had become; it had no relevence before the 1860s. Rif Winfield 09:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Some additions needed
The structure and layout is very good; no changes need to be done with it. But it could use some more information within each subsection:

Carajou 23:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Brief descriptions of Sovereign of the Seas and Mary Rose and Vasa perhaps.
 * Descriptions of significant battles in which these ships operated.
 * More info regarding any existing ships; Vasa and Mary Rose need to be briefly touched upon.

 * I think that's about right; and more about the decline of the ship-of-the-line. Is here the right place to talk about the fleeting introduction of screw-powered ships? The Land 11:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I would think so, like something that goes with the last picture. Carajou 12:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Fine, except DO NOT confuse this article with descriptions of naval battles. Please note that there are individual articles on individual significant naval battles. This article (and others in the same series) should be strictly confined to the ships themselves, and their development; there's more than enough work to be done on this! Rif Winfield 09:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ship-of-the-line and frigate
Under the section "Today", HMS Victory is classed as the "only original ship-of-the-line remaining today". There is the 5th rate 46 gun frigate Trincomalee at Hartlepool Historic Quay. Was a fifth rate ship classed as a ship of the line?

 * No. Frigates, by definition, were not to stand in the line.  They were used for reconnaissance, relaying signals, escorting merchant convoys, and for fast courier service.  The required number of guns for a ship of the line changed over time, but by the late 18th century 64 guns was the minimum.  Pirate Dan 14:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The only argument against the Victory would be the status of the USS Constitution, which was called a 44-gun frigate by the USN even though it carried upwards of 60 guns into battle. The Royal Navy regarded it as a fourth-rate, which can be a ship of the line, and ordered its frigates not to fight it or any other USN ship of its class. Of course, the USN never fought in line of battle, and the Victory was/is a first-rate with 104 or more guns. It's clearly a ship of the line without splitting hairs. Jsc1973 (talk) 06:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The word frigate was applied to ships of different functions at different dates. As you will have noticed ship types have historically grown in size and performance. This is because, in general, you can always make a ship design a little bit better by making it a little bit larger. The reasons for this are explained in a book called the Cost of Seapower by Pugh. --Toddy1 (talk) 09:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The first vessels called frigates (15th/16th Century) had oars and sail.
 * By the mid-late 17th Century, the word applied to relatively low vessels, which did include ships-of-the-line. The Constant Warwick of 1645 was the first English frigate ship-of-the-line.
 * The 18th/19th Century sailing frigate was used for reconnaissance, relaying signals, escorting merchant convoys, and for fast courier service.
 * There were steam frigates built in the 1830s-40s which also had the function of moving sailing line-of-battleships in action - I said moving because this could be by towing, or by being tied to the side - which was done in some bombardments of fortifications in what is now called the Crimean War.
 * Ironclad frigates were steam line-of-battleships which had iron armour but whose armament distribution corresponded to a frigate.
 * From the 1940s onwards, there ave been modern vessels called frigates, whose function was (in the 1940s) anti-submarine warfare. However, by the 1950s, people started making frigates for other purposes (e.g. radar early warning).  I use the word making as some were converted from destroyers.

Spelling
I have never seen "ship of the line" spelled with hyphens, as it mostly is in the article. (Admittedly, I've only read about them in modern fiction.) The use of hyphens doesn't seem consistent with 16th-19th century usage, and I don't see any reason for it. Can someone explain the reason for the hyphens, or alternatively, can they be removed? Thanks. (The same holds for "line of battle".) Zaslav 21:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've never seen "ship-of-the-line" spelled without the hyphens. I don't often read fiction... so perhaps that's why...--12.182.30.4 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

 * The use of hyphens in English signifies that the words run together when spoken without any pause in between them - hence 'ship-of-the-line' or 'Rolls-Royce'. Without the hyphens the phrases would be pronounced as separate words, whereas they are actually specifically related to one another. So, 'ship-of-the-line' has a specific naval meaning whereas 'ship of the line' could mean a ship operated by a steam navigation company such as Cunard or P&O, i.e., a liner.

Mahmudiye (1829)
In the Ottoman archives, the size of Mahmudiye (1829) is given as 201 x 56 kadem (1 kadem = 37.887 cm) or 76.15 × 21.22 m (249.8 × 69.6 ft). The ship carried 1,280 sailors on board. These figures would make it the largest ever ship-of-the-line in history (even larger than Valmy).

However, in some sources, the dimensions are given as 62x17x7m.

Can an enthusiast of the subject determine which of these measures are correct? 88.242.37.64 (talk) 21:30, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I understood the reason: 201 x 56 "kadem" is often mistranslated as "feet", but "kadem" and "feet" are not exactly the same. 201 x 56 "feet" = 62 x 17 m. But, 201 x 56 "kadem" = 76.15 x 21.22 m (the correct size). 78.176.105.37 (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

National Prejudice Issue
The links for lists of ships by nation all state the relevant nation, except one. The ships list for the British Royal Navy is listed as just "the Royal Navy", as though there were only one navy that deserves the title "Royal".108.207.121.139 (talk) 04:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not prejudice, it is normal usage. See Royal Navy: "Due to ... historical prominence, it is common – even among non-Britons – to refer to it as "The Royal Navy" without qualification." Shem (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

very few inline citations
This article has only 11 inline citations, for an article with a lot of text and many sweeping statements. Relying on a bibliography does not substitute for a proper citation for statements like the ones marked in the lead with the citation needed flag, and so many other in the body of the article. Examples of sentences of fact or judgment that would do well with a citation include
 * This aspect of the cog was kept in the newer style carrack designs and proved its worth in battles like that at Diu in 1509.
 * With the growing importance of colonies and exploration and the need to maintain trade routes across stormy oceans, galleys and galleasses (a larger, higher type of galley with side-mounted guns, but lower than a galleon) were used less and less, and only in ever more restricted purposes and areas, that by about 1750, with a few notable exceptions, they were of little use in naval battles.
 * As broadsides became increasingly dominant in battle, tactics changed.

All these are before the very first inline citation.

 * The adoption of line-of-battle tactics had consequences for ship design.
 * The largest sailing three-decker ship of the line ever built in the West was the French Valmy, launched in 1847.

There are more places needing inline citations. There are many wikilinks to specific ships, battles and wars, but it is not clear that any of them would support the main points of this article so as to replace the need for the inline citations. --Prairieplant (talk) 00:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ship of the line


text:
White-rumped vulture

The white-rumped vulture (Gyps bengalensis) is an Old World vulture native to South and Southeast Asia. It has been listed as Critically Endangered on the IUCN Red List since 2000, as the population severely declined. White-rumped vultures die of kidney failure caused by diclofenac poisoning. In the 1980s, the global population was estimated at several million individuals, and it was thought to be "the most abundant large bird of prey in the world". As of 2021, the global population was estimated at less than 6,000 mature individuals.

It is closely related to the European griffon vulture (Gyps fulvus). At one time it was believed to be closer to the white-backed vulture of Africa and was known as the Oriental white-backed vulture.

Taxonomy
The white-rumped vulture was formally described in 1788 by the German naturalist Johann Friedrich Gmelin in his revised and expanded edition of Carl Linnaeus's Systema Naturae. He placed it with the vultures in the genus Vultur and coined the binomial name Vultur bengalensis. Gmelin based his description on the "Bengal vulture" that had been described and illustrated in 1781 by the English ornithologist John Latham in his multi-volume A General Synopsis of Birds. Latham had seen a live bird at the Tower of London and had been told by the keeper that it had come from Bengal. The white-rumped vulture is now one of eight species placed in the genus Gyps that was introduced in 1809 by the French zoologist Marie Jules César Savigny. The genus name is from Ancient Greek gups meaning "vultur". The species is monotypic: no subspecies are recognised.

Description
The white-rumped vulture is a typical, medium-sized vulture, with an unfeathered head and neck, very broad wings, and short tail feathers. It is much smaller than the Eurasian Griffon. It has a white neck ruff. The adult's whitish back, rump, and underwing coverts contrast with the otherwise dark plumage. The body is black and the secondaries are silvery grey. The head is tinged in pink and bill is silvery with dark ceres. The nostril openings are slit-like. Juveniles are largely dark and take about four or five years to acquire the adult plumage. In flight, the adults show a dark leading edge of the wing and has a white wing-lining on the underside. The undertail coverts are black.

It is the smallest of the Gyps vultures, but is still a very large bird. It weighs 3.5-7.5 kg, measures 75 – in length, and has a wingspan of 1.92 - 2.6 m.

This vulture builds its nest on tall trees often near human habitations in northern and central India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and southeast Asia, laying one egg. Birds form roost colonies. The population is mostly resident.

Like other vultures it is a scavenger, feeding mostly on carcasses, which it finds by soaring high in thermals and spotting other scavengers. A 19th century experimenter who hid a carcass of dog in a sack in a tree considered it capable of finding carrion by smell. It often flies and sits in flocks. At one time, it was the most numerous vulture in India.

Within the well-supported clade of the genus Gyps which includes Asian, African, and European populations, it has been determined that this species is basal with the other species being more recent in their species divergence.

Behaviour and ecology
White-rumped vultures usually become active when the morning sun is warming up the air so that thermals are sufficient to support their soaring. They were once visible above Calcutta in large numbers.

When they find a carcass, they quickly descend and feed voraciously. They perch on trees nearby and are known to sometimes descend also after dark to feed. At kill sites, they are dominated by red-headed vultures Sarcogyps calvus. In forests, their soaring often indicated a tiger kill. They swallow pieces of old, dry bones such as ribs and of skull pieces from small mammals. Where water is available they bathe regularly and also drink water. A pack of vultures was observed to have cleaned up a whole bullock in about 20 minutes. Trees on which they regularly roost are often white from their excreta, and this acidity often kills the trees. This made them less welcome in orchards and plantations.

They sometimes feed on dead vultures. One white-rumped vulture was observed when getting caught in the mouth of a dying calf. Jungle crows have been sighted to steal food brought by adults and regurgitated to young.

Allan Octavian Hume observed "hundreds of nests" and noted that white-rumped vultures used to nest on large trees near habitations even when there were convenient cliffs in the vicinity. The preferred nesting trees were Banyan, Peepul, Arjun, and Neem. The main nesting period was November to March with eggs being laid mainly in January. Several pairs nest in the vicinity of each other and isolated nests tend to be those of younger birds. Nests are lined with green leaves. In Mudumalai Tiger Reserve, white-rumped vultures used foremost Terminalia arjuna and Spondias mangifera trees for nesting at a mean height of 26.73 m. Their nests were 1 m long, 40 cm wide and 15 cm deep. Hatchlings were seen from the first to the second week of January.

Solitary nests are not used regularly and are sometimes taken over by the red-headed vulture and large owls such as Bubo coromandus. The male initially brings twigs and arranges them to form the nest. During courtship the male bills the female's head, back and neck. The female invites copulation, and the male mounts and hold the head of the female in his bill. Usually, the female lays a single egg, which is white with a tinge of bluish-green. Female birds destroy the nest on loss of an egg. They are usually silent but make hissing and roaring sounds at the nest or when jostling for food. The eggs hatch after about 30 to 35 days of incubation. The young chick is covered with grey down. The parents feed them with bits of meat from a carcass. The young birds remain for about three months in the nest.

Mycoplasmas have been isolated from tissues of a white-rumped vulture. Mallophagan parasites such as Falcolipeurus and Colpocephalum turbinatumhave been collected from the species. Ticks, Argas (Persicargas) abdussalami, have been collected in numbers from the roost trees of these vultures in Pakistan.

A captive individual lived for at least 12 years.

In the Indian subcontinent
The white-rumped vulture was originally very common especially in the Gangetic plains of India, and often seen nesting on the avenue trees within large cities in the region. Hugh Whistler noted for instance in his guide to the birds of India that it “is the commonest of all the vultures of India, and must be familiar to those who have visited the Towers of Silence in Bombay.” T. C. Jerdon noted that “[T]his is the most common vulture of India, and is found in immense numbers all over the country, ... At Calcutta one may frequently be seen seated on the bloated corpse of some Hindoo floating up or down with the tide, its wing spread, to assist in steadying it...”

Before the 1990s they were even seen as a nuisance, particularly to aircraft as they were often involved in bird strikes. In 1941 Charles McCann wrote about the death of Borassus palms due to the effect of excreta from vultures roosting on them. In 1990, the species had already become rare in Andhra Pradesh in the districts of Guntur and Prakasham. The hunting of the birds for meat by the Bandola (Banda) people there was attributed as a reason. A cyclone in the region during 1990 resulted in numerous livestock deaths and no vultures were found at the carcasses.

This species, as well as the Indian vulture and slender-billed vulture has suffered a 99% population decrease in India and nearby countries since the early 1990s. The decline has been widely attributed to poisoning by diclofenac, which is used as veterinary non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID), leaving traces in cattle carcasses which when fed on leads to kidney failure in birds. Diclofenac was also found to be lethal at low dosages to other species in the genus Gyps. Other NSAIDs were also found to be toxic, to Gyps as well as other birds such as storks. It was shown between 2000-2007 annual decline rates in India averaged 43.9% and ranged from 11-61% in Punjab. Organochlorine pesticide residues were found from egg and tissue samples from around India varying in concentrations from 0.002 μg/g of DDE in muscles of vulture from Mudumalai to 7.30 μg/g in liver samples from vultures of Delhi. Dieldrin varied from 0.003 and 0.015 μg/g. Higher concentrations were found in Lucknow. These pesticide levels have not however been implicated in the decline.

An alternate hypothesis is an epidemic of avian malaria, as implicated in the extinctions of birds in the Hawaiian islands. Evidence for the idea is drawn from an apparent recovery of a vulture following chloroquine treatment. Yet another suggestion has been that the population changes may be linked with long term climatic cycles such as the El Niño–Southern Oscillation.

Affected vultures were initially reported to adopt a drooped neck posture and this was considered a symptom of pesticide poisoning, but subsequent studies suggested that this may be a thermoregulatory response as the posture was seen mainly during hot weather.

It has been suggested that rabies cases have increased in India due to the decline.

In Southeast Asia
In Southeast Asia, the near-total disappearance of white-rumped vultures predated the present diclofenac crisis, and probably resulted from the collapse of large wild ungulate populations and improved management of dead livestock, resulting in a lack of available carcasses for vultures.

Conservation
Currently, only the Cambodia and Burma populations are thought to be viable though those populations are still very small (low hundreds). It has been suggested that the use of meloxicam (another NSAID) as a veterinary substitute that is safer for vultures would help in the recovery. Campaigns to ban the use of diclofenac in veterinary practice have been underway in several South Asian countries.

Conservation measures have included reintroduction, captive-breeding programs and artificial feeding or "vulture restaurants". Two chicks, which were apparently the first captive-bred white-rumped vultures ever, hatched in January 2007, at a facility at Pinjore. However, they died after a few weeks, apparently because their parents were an inexperienced couple breeding for the first time in their lives – a fairly common occurrence in birds of prey.

Other sources

 * Ahmad, S. 2004. Time activity budget of Oriental White-backed Vulture (Gyps bengalensis) in Punjab, Pakistan. M. Phil. thesis, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan, Pakistan.
 * Grubh, R. B. 1974. The ecology and behaviour of vultures in Gir Forest. Ph.D. dissertation, University of Bombay, Bombay, India.
 * Grubh, R. B. 1988. A comparative study of the ecology and distribution of the Indian White-backed Vulture (Gyps bengalensis) and the Long-billed Vulture (G. indicus) in the Indian region. Pages 2763–2767 in Acta 19 Congressus Internationalis Ornithologici. Volume 2. Ottawa, Canada 22–29 June 1986 (H. Ouellet, Ed.). University of Ottawa Press, Ottawa, Ontario.
 * Eck, S. 1981. [Thanatose beim Bengalgeier (Gyps bengalensis)]. Ornithologische Jahresberichte des Museums Heineanum 5-6:71-73.
 * Naidoo, Vinasan 2008. Diclofenac in Gyps vultures : a molecular mechanism of toxicity. Ph.D. Thesis, University of Pretoria. Fulltext (Includes old photos showing their numbers)

title: White-rumped vulture


text:
Richard Deacon (sculptor)

Richard Deacon (born 15 August 1949) is a British abstract sculptor, and a winner of the Turner Prize.

Early life and education
Deacon was born in Bangor, Wales and educated at Plymouth College. He then studied at the Somerset College of Art, Taunton, at St Martin's School of Art, London, and at the Royal College of Art, also in London. He left the Royal College in 1977, and went on to study part-time at the Chelsea School of Art. Deacon's first one-person show came in 1978 in Brixton.

Work
Deacon's work is abstract, but often alludes to anatomical functions. His works are often constructed from everyday materials such as laminated plywood, and he calls himself a "fabricator" rather than a "sculptor". His early pieces are typically made up of sleek curved forms, with later works sometimes more bulky.

Deacon's body of work includes small-scale works suitable for showing in art galleries, as well as much larger pieces shown in sculpture gardens and objects made for specific events, such as dance performances.

Other activities
Deacon was part of the jury that awarded the Academy of Arts' Käthe Kollwitz Prize to Maria Eichhorn in 2021.

Recognition
Deacon won the Turner Prize in 1987 (nominated for his touring show For Those Who Have Eyes) having previously been nominated in 1984.

Elected to the Royal Academy of Arts in 1998.

Deacon was made a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 1999 New Year Honours List. In 2007, he represented Wales at the Venice Biennale. He was one of the five artists shortlisted for the Angel of the South project in January 2008.

In 2017, Deacon won the "Ernst Franz Vogelmann-Preis für Skulptur", Heilbronn. Also in 2017, he was made an Honorary Fellow of the Arts University Plymouth (formerly Plymouth College of Art).

title: Richard Deacon (sculptor)