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Celia Cruz

Úrsula Hilaria Celia de la Caridad Cruz Alfonso (21 October 1925 – 16 July 2003), known as Celia Cruz, was a Cuban singer and one of the most popular Latin artists of the 20th century. Cruz rose to fame in Cuba during the 1950s as a singer of guarachas, earning the nickname "La Guarachera de Cuba". In the following decades, she became known internationally as the "Queen of Salsa" due to her contributions to Latin music. She had sold over 10 million copies, making her one of the best-selling Latin music artists.

She began her career in her home country Cuba, earning recognition as a vocalist of the popular musical group Sonora Matancera, a musical association that lasted 15 years (1950–1965). Cruz mastered a wide variety of Afro-Cuban music styles including guaracha, rumba, afro, son and bolero, recording numerous singles in these styles for Seeco Records. In 1960, after the Cuban Revolution caused the nationalization of the music industry, Cruz left her native country, becoming one of the symbols and spokespersons of the Cuban community in exile. Cruz continued her career, first in Mexico, and then in the United States, the country that she took as her definitive residence. In the 1960s, she collaborated with Tito Puente, recording her signature tune "Bemba colorá". In the 1970s, she signed for Fania Records and became strongly associated with the salsa genre, releasing hits such as "Quimbara". She often appeared live with Fania All-Stars and collaborated with Johnny Pacheco and Willie Colón. During the last years of her career, Cruz continued to release successful songs such as "La vida es un carnaval" and "La negra tiene tumbao".

Her musical legacy is made up of a total of 37 studio albums, as well as numerous live albums and collaborations. Throughout her career, she was awarded numerous prizes and distinctions, including two Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. In addition to her prolific career in music, Cruz also made several appearances as an actress in movies and telenovelas. Her catchphrase "¡Azúcar!" ("Sugar!") has become one of the most recognizable symbols of salsa music.

Early life
Úrsula Hilaria Celia de la Caridad Cruz Alfonso was born on 21 October 1925, at 47 Serrano Street in the Santos Suárez neighborhood of Havana, Cuba. Her father, Simón Cruz, was a railway stoker, and her mother, Catalina Alfonso Ramos, a housewife who took care of an extended family. Celia was one of the eldest among fourteen children living in the house, including cousins and her three siblings, Dolores, Gladys, and Bárbaro, and she used to sing cradle songs to put them to sleep. According to her mother, she began singing as a child at 9 or 10 months of age, often in the middle of the night. She also sang in school during the Fridays' actos cívicos and in her neighborhood ensemble, Botón de oro.

While growing up in Cuba's diverse 1930s musical climate, Cruz listened to many musicians who influenced her adult career, including Fernando Collazo, Abelardo Barroso, Pablo Quevedo, Antonio Arcaño and Arsenio Rodríguez. Despite her father's opposition and the fact that she was Catholic, as a child Cruz learned Santería songs from her neighbor who practiced Santería. Cruz also studied the words to Yoruba songs with colleague Merceditas Valdés (an akpwon, a santería singer) from Cuba and later made various recordings of this religious genre, even singing backup for other akpwons like Candita Batista.

As a teenager, her aunt took her and her cousin to cabarets to sing, but her father encouraged her to attend school in the hope she would become a teacher. After high school, she attended the Normal School for Teachers in Havana with the intent of becoming a literature teacher. At the time being a singer was not viewed as an entirely respectable career. However, one of her teachers told her that, as an entertainer, she could earn in one day what most Cuban teachers earned in a month. From 1947, Cruz studied music theory, voice, and piano at Havana's National Conservatory of Music.

One day, her cousin took her to Havana's radio station Radio García-Serra, where she became a contestant in the "Hora del té" amateur radio program. It was her first time using a microphone and she sang the tango "Nostalgia" (as a tribute to Paulina Álvarez ), winning a cake as the first prize for her performance. On other occasions she won silver chains, as well as opportunities to participate in more contests. She also sang in other amateur radio programs such as La suprema corte del arte, broadcast by CMQ, always winning first prize. The only exception was when she competed against Vilma Valle, having to split their earnings: 25 dollars each.

In 2004, the Miami Herald revealed from partially declassified US State Department papers that Cruz had been linked to Cuba's pre-Revolution communist party, the Popular Socialist Party (PSP), as early as the 1940s. The article, promoted as an "exclusive", was written by Miami Herald journalist Carol Rosenberg from Freedom of Information Act requests. It made several revelations. Among them, the US Embassy in Havana denied Cruz a US visa in 1952 and 1955 because of suspected communist affiliations. The article also states that Cruz had joined the youth wing of the PSP at age 20 and had used a concert to arrange a secret meeting with communists in South America on behalf of its then general secretary, Blas Roca Calderío, who has also founded the party in 1925. Cruz had also signed a public letter in support of one of the Party's front groups, the Pro-Peace Congress. The article states that Cruz's surviving husband, Pedro Knight, was asked about this, and is quoted he knew nothing about it. "She never told me about that. She never talked about politics," the article quotes Knight.

First recordings
Isolina Carrillo was one of the first people to recognize Cruz's ability to sing Afro-Cuban music and asked her to join her Conjunto Siboney, where Olga Guillot also sang. She later joined Orquesta de Ernesto Duarte, Gloria Matancera, Sonora Caracas and Orquesta Anacaona. From 1947, she started to sing in Havana's most popular cabarets: Tropicana, Sans Souci, Bamboo, Topeka, etc. In 1948, Roderico Rodney Neyra founded the group of dancers and singers Las Mulatas de Fuego (The Fiery Mulattas). Cruz was hired with this group as a singer, reaching great success and making presentations in Mexico and Venezuela, where she made her first recordings. Shortly thereafter, Cruz began to sing on musical programs at Radio Cadena Suaritos, along with a group that performed Santería music under the direction of Obdulio Morales. With this group, known as Coro Yoruba y Tambores Batá, she made several recordings that were later released by Panart.

Sonora Matancera
Cruz's big break came in 1950 when Myrta Silva, the singer with Cuba's Sonora Matancera, returned to her native Puerto Rico. Since they were in need of a new singer, the band decided to give the young Celia Cruz a chance. She auditioned in June, and at the end of July she was asked to join as lead singer, and thus became the group's first black frontwoman. In her first rehearsal with Sonora Matancera, Cruz met her future husband Pedro Knight, who was the band's second trumpeter.

Cruz debuted with the group on 3 August 1950. Initially, Cruz was not received with enthusiasm by the public, but Rogelio Martínez had faith in her. On 15 December 1950, Cruz recorded her first songs with the group, which were a resounding success. Her "musical marriage" with the Sonora Matancera lasted fifteen years. In total Celia recorded 188 songs with the Matancera, including hits such as "Cao cao maní picao", "Mata siguaraya", "Burundanga" and "El yerbero moderno". She won her first gold record for "Burundanga", making her first trip to the United States in 1957 to receive the award and to perform at St. Nicholas Arena, New York. During her 15 years with Sonora Matancera, she appeared in cameos in some Mexican films such as Rincón criollo (1950), Una gallega en La Habana (1955) and Amorcito corazón (1961), toured all over Latin America and became a regular at the Tropicana.

Exile and Tico recordings
Cruz was touring in Mexico when Fidel Castro seized power at the conclusion of the Cuban Revolution. She returned to Cuba to find her hometown of Havana in turmoil and mostly shut down. Cruz was publicly critical of Castro, a stance that she knew would endanger her career and possibly her freedom, since other critics of the regime were regularly arrested. She also needed money to pay for her ailing mother's medical expenses, and when she was offered a contract to perform for a few months at La Terraza Nightclub in Mexico City, she accepted. Cruz left Cuba on July 15, 1960, not knowing that she would never return to her home country.

Just one week after arriving in Mexico, Cruz received the news of the death of her father, Simón Cruz. In 1961, Cruz and Sonora Matancera left Mexico for an engagement in the United States. During this period, Cruz began performing solo without the group, performing at a recital at the Hollywood Palladium in Los Angeles.

In 1962, before the refusal of the Cuban government to allow her to return to Cuba, Cruz acquired a house in Fort Lee, New Jersey. Although she tried to return to Cuba to see her sick mother, who was struggling with terminal bladder cancer, the Cuban government denied her request to return. On 7 April 1962, she received the news of the death of her mother Catalina Alfonso. That same year, on 14 July, Cruz was married in civil ceremony with Pedro Knight after a romance of several years. Cruz and Sonora Matancera made their first tour outside of the Americas, visiting Europe and Japan, where they performed with Tito Puente. In 1965, Cruz would culminate a vertiginous fifteen years with the Sonora Matancera. Cruz began a solo career and her husband Pedro Knight decided to leave his position at Sonora Matancera to become her representative, arranger and personal director. During this time, Cruz became an American citizen.

In 1966, Cruz was contacted by Tito Puente to perform with his orchestra. Their first collaborative album, Son con guaguancó featured a recording of José Claro Fumero's guaracha "Bemba colorá", which became one of Cruz's signature songs. Cruz and Puente went on to collaborate on another four albums together. She also recorded albums with other musical directors such as Memo Salamanca, Juan Bruno Tarraza and Lino Frías for Tico Records. In 1974, Fania Records, the leading salsa record label, acquired Tico and signed Cruz to the imprint Vaya Records, where she remained until 1992.

The Fania years
Cruz's association with the Fania label had begun in 1973, when she recorded the lead vocals of "Gracia divina", a song by Larry Harlow which was part of his "Latin opera" Hommy. She then joined the Fania All-Stars, a salsa supergroup featuring the most popular performers of the Fania roster. With them, Cruz first sang "Bemba colorá" and "Diosa del ritmo" in San Juan, Puerto Rico in 1973. She later travelled with the group to Kinshasa, Zaire, in 1974 and returned to San Juan in 1975 for another concert. These live recordings were commercially released years later. Her performance in Zaire, as part of The Rumble in the Jungle event, was included in the film Soul Power.

Cruz recorded her first studio album for Fania in 1974 in collaboration with Johnny Pacheco, the label's founder and musical director. The album, Celia & Johnny, and its lead single, "Quimbara", were both a commercial success. In 1976, she participated in the documentary film Salsa about Latin culture, along with figures like Dolores del Río and Willie Colón. The following year she recorded her first LP with Colón, a collaboration that would be repeated with great success in 1981 and 1987. When touring with Colón, Cruz wore a flamboyant costume, which included various colored wigs, tight sequined dresses, and very high heels. Her fashion style became so famous that one of them was acquired by the Smithsonian institution. In the late 1970s, she participated in an Eastern Air Lines commercial in Puerto Rico, singing the catchy phrase ¡Esto sí es volar! (This is to truly fly!). Cruz also used to sing the identifying spot for WQBA radio station in Miami, formerly known as "La Cubanísima": "I am the voice of Cuba, from this land, far away...I am liberty, I am WQBA, the most Cuban!" (Yo soy de Cuba, la voz, desde esta tierra lejana... ¡soy libertad, soy WQBA, Cubanísima!).

In 1982, Celia was reunited with the Sonora Matancera and recorded the album Feliz Encuentro. That year, the singer received the first tribute of her career at Madison Square Garden in New York. In 1987, Cruz performed a concert in Santa Cruz de Tenerife. That concert was recognized by the publisher of the Guinness Book of Records as the largest free-entry outdoor concert, with an audience of 250,000 people. In 1988, she participated in the feature film Salsa alongside Robby Draco Rosa. In 1990, Cruz won her first Grammy Award (Best Tropical Latin Performance) for her album Ritmo en el corazón, recorded with Ray Barretto. She was also invited to celebrate the 65th anniversary of the Sonora Matancera in Central Park in New York. The decline of Fania's brand of salsa dura in favor of the emergent salsa romántica gradually brought an end to Celia's musical association with the Fania All Stars. Their final reunions took place in Puerto Rico (1994) and Colombia (1995), both of which were released on CD.

Later years
In 1990, Cruz managed to return to Cuba. She was invited to make a presentation at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. When she came out of this presentation she took a few grams of Cuban soil in a bag; at her request, this bag would later be placed in her coffin when she died. In 1994, she received the National Endowment for the Arts award from the then President Bill Clinton, which is the highest recognition granted by the United States government to an artist. Having made musical presentations in Mexican and Cuban films, in 1992 Celia participated as an actress in the American film Mambo Kings, along with Armand Assante and Antonio Banderas. A year later she made her debut as a television actress in the Mexican telenovela Valentina, along with Verónica Castro for the Televisa network. In 1995, Celia made a guest appearance in the American film The Perez Family, along with Alfred Molina and Anjelica Huston. In 1997, she starred again for Televisa in the Mexican telenovela El alma no tiene color, a remake of the classic Mexican film Angelitos negros. Cruz played the role of a black woman who gives birth to a white daughter. On 25 October 1997, the city of San Francisco, California, officially declared that date as "Celia Cruz Day".

In 1998, she released the album Mi vida es cantar, which featured one of her most successful songs, La vida es un carnaval. In 1999, she performed with Luciano Pavarotti for the Pavarotti and Friends concert. In 2000, Cruz released a new album under the auspices of Sony Music, Celia Cruz and Friends: A Night of Salsa, where she recorded again with Tito Puente, who died shortly after. Thanks to this album, Cruz was awarded her first Latin Grammy. In 2001, the album Siempre viviré won her a second Latin Grammy. In that same year, she performed with Marc Anthony in a tribute to Aretha Franklin for VH1. In 2002, Cruz released the album, La negra tiene tumbao, where she ventured into modern variants of Caribbean rhythms, influenced by rap and hip hop. For this record she won her third Latin Grammy and her second American Grammy.

On 16 July 2002, Cruz performed to a full house at the free outdoor performing arts festival Central Park SummerStage in New York City. During the performance she sang "Bemba colorá". A live recording of this song was subsequently made available in 2005 on a commemorative CD honoring the festival's then 20-year history entitled, "Central Park SummerStage: Live from the Heart of the City". Cruz appeared on the Dionne Warwick albums Dionne Sings Dionne and My Friends & Me with their Latin duet version of "(Do You Know The Way To) San José".

Death
In August and September 2002, Cruz underwent surgery due to breast cancer. In November that year, Cruz fell during a concert in Mexico. She was diagnosed with glioma, an aggressive form of brain cancer, and underwent surgery in December. Confident, Cruz said she did not shed one tear and that she was aiming to resume her artistic career. She finished recording her last album, Regalo del Alma. In February, she appeared in public again at the 45th Annual Grammy Awards to receive the award for Best Salsa Album. In March 2003, the US Hispanic network Telemundo paid tribute to her. The event, titled ¡Celia Cruz: Azúcar!, involved figures such as Gloria Estefan, Marc Anthony, La India, Gloria Gaynor and Patti LaBelle among others. This was her last public appearance.

On the afternoon of 16 July 2003, Cruz died at her home in Fort Lee, New Jersey, at the age of 77. At her express wish, her mortal remains were first transferred to Miami for two days to receive the homage of her Cuban exile admirers, returning and finally resting in the Woodlawn Cemetery in The Bronx, New York. An epilogue in her autobiography notes that, in accordance with her wishes, Cuban soil - which she had saved from a visit to Guantánamo Bay - was used in her entombment.

Tributes and legacy
Cruz's legacy has been honored since years before her death, including a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame (1987), the asteroid name 5212 Celiacruz (1989), the Excellence Awards at the 1990 Lo Nuestro Awards, and Celia Cruz Way in Miami (1991). She was also recognized with a star on Boulevard Amador Bendayán in Caracas, Venezuela, and a figure in the Hollywood Wax Museum. Besides, Cruz received three Honoris Causa doctorates from three universities in the United States: Yale University, Florida International University and the University of Miami. Cruz, along with fellow Afro-Cuban musician Cachao, were inducted into the Billboard Latin Music Hall of Fame in 1994. She was also inducted into the International Latin Music Hall of Fame in 1999. In the same year, she was presented with the ASCAP Latin Heritage Award becoming the first recipient of the accolade.

Through a formidable work ethic, Cruz rose to the very top in her genre. In February 2004, her last album, Regalo del Alma, she won a posthumous award at the Premios Lo Nuestro for best salsa release of the year. It was announced in December 2005 that a musical called ¡Azúcar! would open in Tenerife before touring the world. The name comes from Cruz's well-known catch phrase of "¡Azúcar!" (“Sugar!”).

In 2003, a music school was opened in the Bronx, named the Celia Cruz Bronx High School of Music. Pedro Knight visited this school before his death to meet the students and share stories about her life. On June 4, 2004, the heavily Cuban-American community of Union City, New Jersey heralded its annual Cuban Day Parade by dedicating its new Celia Cruz Park (also known as Celia Cruz Plaza), which features a sidewalk star in her honor, at 31st Street and Bergenline Avenue, with Cruz's widower, Pedro Knight, present. There are four other similar dedications to Cruz around the world. Cruz's star has expanded into Union City's "Walk of Fame", as new marble stars are added each spring to honor Latin entertainment and media personalities, such as merengue singer Joseíto Mateo, salsa singer La India, Cachao, Cuban tenor Beny Moré, Tito Puente, Spanish language television news anchor Rafael Pineda, salsa pioneer Johnny Pacheco, singer/bandleader Gilberto Santa Rosa and music promoter Ralph Mercado.

On 18 May 2005, the National Museum of American History, administered by the Smithsonian Institution and located in Washington, D.C., opened "¡Azúcar!", an exhibit celebrating the life and music of Celia Cruz. The exhibit highlights important moments in Cruz's life and career through photographs, personal documents, costumes, videos, and music. Her biography Celia: Mi vida was also published in 2005, based on more than 500 hours of interviews with the Mexican journalist Ana Cristina Reymundo. The journalist and TV presenter Cristina Saralegui planned to take the story of her life to the cinema and the American actress Whoopi Goldberg, admirer of the singer, expressed her interest in representing her, but the project was cancelled. From 26 September 2007 to 25 May 2008, Celia, a musical based on the life of Celia Cruz, played at the Off-Broadway venue New World Stages. The show won four 2008 HOLA Awards from the Hispanic Organization of Latin Actors.

On 16 March 2011, Celia Cruz was honored by the United States Postal Service with a commemorative postage stamp. The Cruz stamp was one of a group of five stamps honoring Latin music greats, also including Selena, Tito Puente, Carmen Miranda, and Carlos Gardel. The Smithsonian's National Museum of American History collaborated with photographer Robert Weingarten to create an object-based portrait of Celia Cruz featuring artifacts in the museum. The portrait was unveiled on 3 October 2012.

On 21 October 2013, Google honored her with a Google Doodle. Jennifer Lopez honored Cruz with her presentation at the 41st American Music Awards ceremony. The singers Yuri, La India, Maluma and Aymée Nuviola did the same at the Latin American Music Awards. Also in 2013, Cruz was inducted into the New Jersey Hall Fame. In October 2015, Telemundo premiered an 80-episode docu-drama based on Cruz's life, Celia.

In 2015, the television networks RCN Televisión and Telemundo, made the Celia a TV series, based on the life of Celia Cruz. Celia was played by the actresses Jeimy Osorio and Aymée Nuviola and counted on the voice of Patty Padilla. In 2019, Angélique Kidjo released a tribute album to Cruz, entitled Celia, including songs spanning all of Celia's Cruz career reinvented with an Afrobeat feel. It features Tony Allen (musician), Meshell Ndegeocello and the Gangbé Brass Band.

In 2018, a monument to Celia Cruz was unveiled in the Cuban Heritage Park in Hialeah, Florida. Also in 2018, the Celia Cruz Estate launched a brand inspired by Cruz which featured merchandise inspired and about Cruz.

In 2019, Chilean-American poet Marjorie Agosin created a chamber music theatre performance titled "Las Magníficas" (The Magnificent Ones), based on the life of Celia Cruz and Chilean singer-songwriter Violeta Parra.

On June 2, 2021, the City of New York honored Celia Cruz by co-naming the intersection of Reservoir Avenue and East 195th Street in the Kingsbridge Heights section of The Bronx, near the High School that is the named in her honor, "Celia Cruz Way".

In 2023, Rolling Stone ranked Cruz at No. 18 on their list of the 200 Greatest Singers of All Time. In February 2023, Cruz was selected as an honoree in the 2024 American Women quarter program, making her the first Afro-Latina to appear on a U.S quarter.

Discography

 * Cuba's Foremost Rhythm Singer (1958)
 * Incomparable Celia (1958)
 * Mi Diario Musical (1959)
 * Con Amor (Exito, 1960)
 * Canciones Premiadas (1961)
 * Homenaje a Los Santos (1964)
 * Canciones que Yo Quería Haber Grabado Primero (1965)
 * Sabor y Ritmo de Pueblos (1965)
 * Cuba Y Puerto Rico Son (1966)
 * Son con Guaguancó (1966)
 * Bravo Celia Cruz (1967)
 * A Ti México (1967)
 * Excitante (1968)
 * Serenata Guajira (1968)
 * Quimbo Quimbumbia (1969)
 * Etc. Etc. Etc. (1970)
 * Celia y Tito Puente en España (1971)
 * Celia Cruz/Tito Puente Algo Especial Para Recordar (1972)
 * Celia & Johnny (1974)
 * Tremendo Caché (1975)
 * Recordando El Ayer (1976)
 * Only They Could Have Made This Album (1977)
 * Homenaje A Beny More (1978)
 * Celia Cruz Y La Sonora Ponceña La Ceiba (1979)
 * Celia/Johnny/Pete (1980)
 * Celia & Willie (1981)
 * Feliz Encuentro (1982)
 * Tremendo Trío (1983)
 * Candela (1986)
 * De Nuevo (1986)
 * Winners (1987)
 * Ritmo en el Corazón (1988)
 * Guarachera del Mundo (1990)
 * Canta Celia Cruz (1991)
 * Reina del Ritmo Cubano (1991)
 * Tributo a Ismael Rivera (1992)
 * Verdadera Historia (1992)
 * Azucar Negra (1993)
 * Boleros Polydor (1993)
 * Homenaje a Beny Moré, Vol. 3 (1993)
 * Introducing (1993)
 * Guaracheras de La Guaracha (1994)
 * Homenaje a Los Santos (1994)
 * Irrepetible (1994)
 * Mambo del Amor (1994)
 * Merengue Saludos Amigos (1994)
 * Cuba's Queen of Rhythm (1995)
 * Double Dynamite (1995)
 * Festejando Navidad (1995)
 * Irresistible (1995)
 * Celia Cruz Delta (1996)
 * Cambiando Ritmos (1997)
 * Duets (1997)
 * También Boleros (1997)
 * Afro-Cubana (1998)
 * Mi Vida Es Cantar (1998)
 * En Vivo C.M.Q., Vol. 4 (1999)
 * En Vivo C.M.Q., Vol. 5 (1999)
 * En Vivo Radio Progreso, Vol. 1 (1999)
 * En Vivo Radio Progreso, Vol. 2 (1999)
 * En Vivo Radio Progreso, Vol. 3 (1999)
 * Celia Cruz and Friends: A Night of Salsa (1999)
 * Habanera (2000)
 * Salsa (2000)
 * Siempre Viviré (2000)
 * La Negra Tiene Tumbao (2001)
 * Hits Mix (2002)
 * Unrepeatable (2002)
 * Homenaje a Beny Moré (2003)
 * Regalo del Alma (2003)
 * Dios disfrute a la Reina (2004)
 * Havana Nights (2019)

Filmography

 * Salón México (Mexico, 1950)
 * Una gallega en La Habana (Mexico, 1952)
 * ¡Olé... Cuba! (Mexico/Cuba, 1957)
 * Affair in Havana (USA/Cuba, 1957)
 * Amorcito Corazón (Mexico, 1960)
 * Salsa (Documentary, 1976)
 * Salsa (USA, 1988)
 * "Fires Within" (USA, 1991)
 * The Mambo Kings (USA, 1992)
 * Valentina (TV) (Mexico, 1993)
 * The Perez Family (USA, 1995) Luz Pat
 * El alma no tiene color (TV) (Mexico, 1997)
 * ¡Celia Cruz: Azúcar! (TV) (Tribute, USA, 2003)
 * Soul Power (Documentary of Kinshasa, Zaire Music Festival 1974) (USA, 2008)
 * CELIA, Celia Cruz Bio-Drama (2015 on Telemundo)

Grammy Awards
The Grammy Awards are awarded annually by the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences in the United States. Celia Cruz has received two awards from fourteen nominations, as well as a non-competitive Lifetime Achievement award.

 * align="center"|1979
 * Eternos
 * Best Latin Recording
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1983
 * Tremendo Trío
 * rowspan="5"| Best Tropical Latin Recording
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1985
 * De Nuevo
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1986
 * Homenaje A Beny More - Vol. III
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1987
 * The Winners
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1989
 * "Ritmo En El Corazón"
 * Won
 * align="center"|1992
 * Tributo a Ismael Rivera
 * rowspan="2"| Best Tropical Latin Album
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1993
 * Azúcar Negra
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|1995
 * Irrepetible
 * Best Tropical Latin Performance
 * Nominated
 * 1997
 * "Guantanamera"
 * Best Rap Performance for a Duo or Group
 * Nominated
 * 1998
 * Mi Vida Es Cantar
 * Best Tropical Latin Performance
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|2000
 * Celia Cruz and Friends: A Night of Salsa
 * rowspan="2"| Best Salsa Album
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|2002
 * La Negra Tiene Tumbao
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|2003
 * Regalo del Alma
 * Best Salsa/Merengue Album
 * Won
 * }
 * align="center"|2000
 * Celia Cruz and Friends: A Night of Salsa
 * rowspan="2"| Best Salsa Album
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|2002
 * La Negra Tiene Tumbao
 * Nominated
 * align="center"|2003
 * Regalo del Alma
 * Best Salsa/Merengue Album
 * Won
 * }
 * Won
 * }

Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award
The Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award is presented to those who, during their lifetimes, have made creative contributions of outstanding artistic significance to the field of recording. Celia Cruz won the award in 2016.

 * align="center"|2016
 * Herself
 * Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award
 * Won
 * }
 * }

Latin Grammy Awards
A Latin Grammy Award is an accolade by the Latin Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences to recognize outstanding achievement in the music industry. Celia Cruz has won four awards out of seven nominations.

Cruz is also the recipient of the president's National Medal of Arts.
 * align="center"|2000
 * Celia Cruz and Friends: A Night of Salsa
 * Best Salsa Album
 * Won
 * align="center"|2001
 * Siempre Viveré
 * Best Traditional Tropical Album
 * Won
 * align="center" rowspan="4"|2002
 * rowspan="2"| "La Negra Tiene Tumbao"
 * Record of the Year
 * Nominated
 * Best Music Video
 * Nominated
 * rowspan="2"| La Negra Tiene Tumbao
 * Album of the Year
 * Nominated
 * Best Salsa Album
 * Won
 * align="center" |2004
 * Regalo del Alma
 * Best Salsa Album
 * Won
 * }
 * Won
 * align="center" |2004
 * Regalo del Alma
 * Best Salsa Album
 * Won
 * }
 * }

title: Celia Cruz


text:
Talk:West Germanic languages

This article
Shouldn't this article be called West Germanic language_s_? --zeno 08:53 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

Proto-West Germanic language?
As for the comment about there never being a Proto-West Germanic language...

From what I've long been hearing, these things are largely known through reconstruction. So how can it be said for certain at this point that there wasn't a Proto-West Germanic language? I'm finally getting around to signing this post. Gringo300 17:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Because it is possible for all the dialects to have diverged from Proto-Germanic at about roughly the same time. Since the dialects would form a continuum of mutually intelligible dialects, innovations would pass from one to the other without their being part of a Proto-West Germanic dialect.--Wiglaf 16:39, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The usual linguistic criterion for deciding whether a group of languages is descended from a common intermediate proto-language is to see whether they all share any common innovation. In this case, is there any common innovation all West Germanic languages have that is not present in North Germanic, East Germanic, or Proto-Germanic? As far as I know, there is: all West Germanic languages show gemination of consonants (except r) before j (PGmc *satjan > OS *settian, OHG sezzen, OE settan). Of course the innovation could have passed from one to the other without there having been a Proto-West Germanic language, but that doesn't mean we know it did. --Angr/undefined 8 July 2005 20:55 (UTC)

 * The problem here is that about 95% of the innovation shared by the WGmc. group came about after the identifiable member-dialects were already divergent. Yes, there are many changes which all the dialects made in something resembling unison. But the overwhelming majority of those were areal changes, with slightly different reflexes in each dialect. Thus, "Proto-West Germanic" is a chimera. It never existed as a language in itself, but rather subsisted through the actual dialects as spoken. As several contemporary scholars (e.g. van Coetsam, Voyles, Davis, Ringe) have suggested, we would be both wiser and more accurate to describe the Old Languages of this continuum (OE, OF, OS, OHG) as dialects of West Germanic rather than decendents of it. That one change is sufficient to clear up numerous misconception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.91.99 (talk) 10:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

77.56.91.99, you said that Ringe advocates for the non-existence of a Proto-West-Germanic, but Ringe and Taylor 2014 is pretty clear about the existence of a Proto-West-Germanic. From page 41:
 * "it leaves no doubt that there was for some generations a unitary PWGmc language, though it seems equally clear that there were always minor dialect divisions within it (see especially Stiles 2013)"

As for Voyles, the only work by him that I have access to in which hes mentions the existence of PWGmc is Voyles 1972, in which he is very for its existence.:
 * "[...] you really should believe in West Germanic" (Voyles 1972)

--Pannakoko 1:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC).

Low Saxon-Low Franconian
Why are Low Franconian and Low Saxon separate categories? Are the two groups now regarded as more separate from each other than English and Frisian, or is something else going on? Certainly, the authors of ethnologue don't hold this view - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ)  20:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The authors of ethnologue are often wrong - especially regarding German, Low German and all those dialects. I think they constantly get a little confused because of the sheer number of it. The ethnologue guys call Low German Low Saxon - for what reason I don't know. In my opinion Low Saxon is just one dialect of Low German. That is another proof for their incompetence in that matter. --Lucius1976 21:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Low Saxon is perhaps a translation of Nedersaksisch or Neddersassisch see here.
 * 84.135.251.67 21:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The family tree
I was just passing through an noticed that the family tree seems to give the impression that Northern Middle English descends from Middle English and was contemporanious with Early Modern English. Is this the case? 81.79.229.119 21:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No. 84.135.239.188 17:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Frisian, not Low Saxon, is closest to Modern English?
I added the "" tag to the claim that Low Saxon is the closest existing language to modern English. I didn't change the text because I don't have enough expertise in this subject area.

The reason I think Frisian (not Low Saxon) is probably the closest is because this journal article says, "... Frisian is considered to be the closest extant language to Old English", and gives this citation (I've not read this): "Nielsen H. F., 1985 Old English and the continental Germanic languages: a survey of morphological and phonological interrelations 2nd edition. Institut für Sprachwissenschaft der Universität Innsbruck, Innsbruck". That seemed authoritative enough to me.

On the other hand, it could be that Frisian is being overlooked because very few people speak it. Or there may well be some other reason to say it was Low Saxon, not Frisian. Hopefully, someone with more expertise will handle this. EMan 18:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Frisian is closer to English than Low Saxon is. But the sentence in question begins "Of modern German varieties", and Frisian isn't a German variety. "German" is usually taken to include High German and Low German (also called Low Saxon), but not Frisian or Low Franconian (Dutch and its closest relatives). —Angr 19:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Is Dutch Low Saxon a Low German variety or a Low Franconian variety closely related to Dutch?
 * 84.135.197.66 20:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a Low German variety, although it's been influenced by contact with Dutch, while Low Saxon in Germany has been influenced by contact with High German. —Angr 08:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I love the way this is discussed like it actually exists in the real world. Forgive my OR, but this category is total ... erm ... bs. Such categories help younger readers process information, but what exactly is this category supposed to tell us? That High German is closer to English than it is to Danish? No it's not. That Saxon is closer to English than Jutish? Hilarious. And English came from a common linguistic zone that included southern Scandinavia, and the north sea coasts of modern Holland and Germany (bin to the West-North schema); you don't need to be a linguist to know this ... just read Beowulf. But of course to everyone but a few this category suggests the opposite. To my mind the only thing it tells us is that linguists have a problem communicating their intentions to general audiences and that encyclopedia and other tertiary writers are more interested in categorization than understanding reality. You'll have to forgive me though, cause I've never read the arguments of the guy who invented this category. Yeah, I'll have a guess that some guy poured through grammars and (hopefully) old writing, cheery-picked a few features to the expense of more others, and drew a big fat line through the subtle dialect continuum of pre-modern Germanic Europe. Great fun I'm sure, but little more. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 22:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

 * The subject of the exact relation between the three languages, English, Frisian and Low German, has been debated for some time now. A lot depends on the exact quality of vowels in words like "house" and "mouse". I don't think we will ever have scientific information about the exact sounds in Low German and Frisian from the 4th. century A.D. and earlier. It is possible that English is about equidistant from the two. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.103.250 (talk) 13:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Mecklenburgisch-Pommersch
Although there is an entry in the German Wikipedia, Mecklenburgisch-Pommersch doesn't exist actually. This is a mixture of two different dialects: Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommersch and Pommersch. I know Vorpommersch and Pommersch sound similar but in fact they have only few things in common. Today only the first dialect is spoken in Germany, the second has somewhat died out due to World War II. --89.53.45.236 20:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Low German vs. Low Saxon
I realize that both terms can be considered correct, but seeing as Low Saxon - though a disambiguation page - directs to Low German (where the two are equated), shouldn't we be using Low German in this article? Aryaman (☼) 20:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, we should. "Low Saxon" is ambiguous, as it is often used only for the dialects of Low German spoken in the Netherlands and Lower Saxony. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 22:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The map
The map is not correct. The region of South Tyrol is not included in its entirety nor is the region of Swiss Graubuenden which is mainly German speaking. Walsar german speakers are also found in Italy. Therefore, the area of German speaking Switz. is wrong. Furthermore the border of Liechtenstein is nothing like it really looks on the map. This map is really unprofessional and not completely accurate. It needs to be updated! I don't think the portrayal of Luxembourg is right either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.81.131.243 (talk) 14:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a wiki, so feel free to make corrections. If you go to Wikimedia Commons, register a user name, and wait four days, you'll be able to upload a corrected version of the map, either under a new name, or as a new version of the image with this name by going to commons:File:Europe germanic languages.PNG and clicking "Upload a new version of this file". +Angr 19:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Family tree versus Subdivision conflict
"The West Germanic languages constitute the largest of the three traditional branches of the Germanic family of languages and include languages such as English, Dutch and Afrikaans, German, the Frisian languages, and Yiddish" (from article). Additionally, "Low Franconian, or Low Frankish, is a group of several West Germanic languages spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the northern department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia that originally descended from Old Frankish" (Low Franconian languages). The conflict occurs with the listed four (4) subdivisions in the ISO 639-5 on the top right portion of the page; "Anglo-Frisian, Low Franconian languages, Low German, High German" when one compares it to the West Germanic Family tree listed near the end of the article; o English o Scots o Yola (now extinct) o Frisian languages o Low Saxon o Low Franconian + Dutch + Afrikaans (in South Africa and Namibia) o Alemannic German o Austro-Bavarian German o German o Luxembourgish o Yiddish o Vilamovian
 * Anglo-Frisian
 * Low German
 * High German

The article seems declarative in there being four subcategories, but ends stating (in part), "Note that divisions between subfamilies of Germanic are rarely precisely defined; most form dialect continua, with adjacent dialects being mutually intelligible and more separated ones not" and then removes one of the categories, making the languages listed under "Low Franconian" only dialects, and the branch itself a language.

Also note how the Indo-European language tree, and the West Germanic language tree are congruent. VMK 13:11, 25 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Viccar M Khan (talk • contribs)
 * Dutch is not Low German, do not readd it as being so. Thank you. HP1740-B (talk) 00:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Dutch is traditionally classified as or with Low German, though I've noticed Wikipedia meticulously avoids calling it such (presumably for nationalist reasons).Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 00:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Traditionally Frisian was also classified as Low German, but more recently classified as Anglo-Frisian as its closely related to English. Dutch is related to Low German, and a Low German Dutch dialect spoken in the east is classified as Low German. The whole thing with west-germanic languages is that they can be divided between those that did and those that didnt undergo the High German consonant shift. In that sense you can call all west-germanic languages Low German, except for High German. That would include English. Yes I can even find a minority amount of traditional sources that classify english as Low German. Contemporary classifications are different. All traditional sources that previously describe dutch as low german also included frisian as such. And that doesn't make sense. Why Would Dutch and Frisian be considered Low German and not English? No, contemporary sources mostly speak of Dutch as Low Franconion, English and Frisian as Anglo-Frisian and Low German as the dialects spoken in Northern Germany and Eastern Netherlands. All of course closely related, as Low German originates from Old Saxon. Grey Fox (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I know the division is made in terms of which specific features they have or lack. High German has the consonant shift. Low German and Anglo-Frisian together are defined as having a single verb form in the plural. I don't know how to divide those two, but at least the specific characteristics of Low German are clearly defined. So that leaves Dutch/Low Franconian, which has neither of these features. Though you have to take into account that the original 2nd person plural in Dutch is now the 2nd person singular, its ending is still -t as the German 2nd person plural -t, while the other two plural endings have -en as in German. CodeCat (talk) 23:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me there is a basic confusion here between the early groupings within WGmc and the later individual dialects, so the presentation of Subdivisions as is actually nonsensical, as is the diagram lower down.
 * Ingvaeonic (English, Scots, Frisian, Low German)
 * Low Franconian (Dutch, Afrikaans)
 * High German (German, Yiddish)

For a start Low Franconian cannot be a distinct branch until the Second Sound Shift separates Low Franconian from the Franconian dialects which comprise part of High German. High German is a post-shift cover term for two distinct groupings with WGmc, so it too cannot be a primary subdivision.

Also, while it's true that some scholars treat Old Saxon and Low Franconian as constituting Low German, I'm not sure that any modern works do (can anyone cite one?). Likewise the Tacitus-derived tribal terms are only found in older works, and everyone now uses the geographical terms (Schwarz's, I think) and at best put the older terms in parenthesis. --Pfold (talk) 20:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Table of dialectal characteristics
I've created a table of characteristics that appear in West Germanic but not in all languages. I think it would be useful to show the internal division of the languages, the continuum between them, and also their relationship. This is also important in light of the fact that West Germanic has been notoriously difficult to see as a 'tree'. Unfortunately I don't know how to find sources for this, so for now I'm just showing it here. I'm sure there are quite a few though, as the West Germanic dialect continuum has been studied extensively.

CodeCat (talk) 19:57, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The Change from *e > *i
Dear CodeCat, I really appreciate your contributions concerning Proto-Germanic, but today you were wrong. You reverted my contribution:

 * Proto-Germanic *e becomes *i before syllabels with i or j (cf. OHG. and Old Saxon. biris, Anglo-Saxon birest „you bear" vs. Old Norse berr and Gothic baíris)

Saying: i-mutation of e is a Proto-Germanic change, not West Germanic. - Here you mixed something up. I think you had in mind the following change from Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: /e/ > /i/ when followed by a syllable-final nasal — *en "in" > *in; *séngʷʰeti "(s)he chants" > *sengʷidi > *singwidi "(s)he sings"

This is accurate, but it simply refers to a different case. My contribution was accurate and I will restore it. Best regards to the Netherlands--DownUnder36 (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I had in mind the change of e to i when i or j follows. That is a common Proto-Germanic change and there are sources for that as well. The Proto-Germanic form was *biridi. CodeCat (talk) 01:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you tell a source for this? As to my knowledge the second person present tense of this verb was Proto-Germanic *berezi (not *birizi) from Pre-Proto-Germanic *bʱéresi. The "e" in the first syllable in Proto-Germanic is to be recontructed from the converging evidence of Gothic and Old Norse (see article); the form *biridi refers to the 3rd person anyway. Bammesberger (1986) reconstructs this form as *ƀeređi, also with /e/ in the first syllable. Best regards--DownUnder36 (talk) 08:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The Gothic evidence isn't any good in this case because e and i merged in Gothic, becoming i normally and ai before h and r. As for Old Norse, it's very likely that the alternation between e and i was levelled out by analogy. But the i-mutation is still visible in other words where there was no such analogy, such as *giftiz < *gebaną "to give" or *midjaz < PIE *medhyos. Old Norse also has -i- in those words. -e- did not alternate with -i- via PIE ablaut, so i-mutation is the only other explanation. As for a source, D. Ringe's 2006 book "From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic". CodeCat (talk) 11:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Still not convinced. Proto-Germanic /e/ didn't give Got. /i/ in any position but as you say has been preserved as "aí" (probably pronounced /ɛ/) before h and r (and also before hʷ). So if Western Germanic languages shift Prg. /e/ to /i/ in one of the environments where Gothic didn't (or just modified /e/ to /ɛ/ and if they do so also in contrast in Old Norse, than this change is specific for these langauges and presumably a later change than similar /e/ > /i/ shifts between PIE and Prg. Or what should be inaccurate with the example given in the article? - I know the famous book of Ringe 2006, who acually focuses on the changes between PIE and Proto-Germanic. I just searched for arguments in our debate but didn't find one (which page?). - And YES my first posting of last night wasn't as friendly as it could have been.--DownUnder36 (talk) 20:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: I want to tell further sources on this as soon as I can. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DownUnder36 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * If e didn't become i anywhere in Gothic, then what about all the instances where it did become i? See for yourself; i and ai are in complimentary distribution in native Germanic words. I don't think this article should give WP:UNDUE weight to a minority position, the majority agrees that i-mutation did occur in Proto-Germanic or at least demonstrably in Proto-Northwest-Germanic (because the merging levelled out the effects in Gothic). CodeCat (talk) 22:27, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * As to me, all arguments have been exchanged now. I am curious about more views on this question and will look for further references myself.--DownUnder36 (talk) 10:13, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The reconstruction of Proto-West-Germanic
Dear Codecat, you removed the complete paragraph of the article about the reconstruction of Proto-West-Germanic. Your removal included the following sentence (fully attested with literature/references) which has been part of the article since months:

"Several scholars like H. F. Nielsen (1981, 2001), G. Klingenschmitt (2002) and K.-H. Mottausch (1998, 2011) have published reconstructions of Proto-West-Germanic morphological paradigmas and many authors did reconstruct some Proto-West-Germanic morphological forms or lexems."

As to the new book of Wolfram Euler I suggest at least a discussion about the quality of this contribution before simply removing the whole sub-paragraph. His book has received very positive comments and recommendations by Prof. Alfred Bammesberger, Prof. Jürgen Udolph and Prof. Hans-Dieter Pohl. They all confirm both the quality and novelty of this book. We can discuss Eulers example sentences here before including them into the article. However, the simple fact that there is now a comprehensive scientific book about Proto-West-Germanic seems obviously relevant and should remain part of the article. Best regards, DownUnder36 (talk) 09:09, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

PS: Here are the sample phrases for further discussion:

Proto-West-Germanic (around 5th Century CE):
 * χwaz sōkiþ, sa finþiþ. (= Seek and you shall find.)
 * eχu, eχu, rīki furi eχu. (= A horse, a horse a kingdom for an horse.)
 * sīþŭ kwemeþ, ak kwemeþ. (= You  are late, but you are coming after all.)
 * wurđō ganōǥă kweđină, nu dēþi seχwēm. (= We've had enough of words, now let's act.)
 * berχtă sunnō bringiþ it ana dagă. (= Bright sun brings it to light.)
 * χūsă mīnă burg mīnŭ. (= My home is my castle.)

The same phrases in Proto-Germanic (around 100 BCE):
 * χwaz sōkīđi, sa finþiđi.
 * eχwan, eχwan, rīkjan furi eχwan.
 * seiþu kwemeđe, ake kwemeđe.
 * wurđōn ganōχan kweþinan, nu dēþinz seχwaime.
 * berχtan sawel bringiđi it ana dagan.
 * χūsan meinan burgiz meinō.
 * I can't in good faith consider that source "reliable" on account of the reconstruction it contains. Here are the problems I can find purely on linguistic merits:
 * The form *eχu contradicts the earlier mention (in this article) that labiovelars are delabialised non-initially. The expected form, which evidence confirms, is *eh (Old English eoh, not eohu). The same applies to *seχwēm further down, which should be *sehēm.
 * The loss of final -ą is applied inconsistently. The final vowel is shown in *kweđină (< PG *kwedaną), while it's apparently lost in *rīki (< PG *rīkiją).
 * The character đ is used to denote a dental fricative, but this article says that this sound became in West Germanic, which again is confirmed by evidence. There is no evidence for the existence of  in West Germanic at all.
 * The second velar of *ganōǥă is indicated to be a fricative, but Old English and Dutch evidence unambiguously shows that the first was also a fricative, thus the first should also be written ǥ.
 * The adjective *berχtă apparently shows the neuter nominative ending, but *sunnō is feminine. Reflexes of the PG nominative feminine *berhtō are expected here. The fact that the correct ending is shown in *mīnŭ means that the author knew what the right ending was, but forgot to apply it in a grammatically correct way.
 * The same problem is also seen in *ganōǥă and *kweđină, a masculine accusative or neuter nominative/accusative singular, while the noun they agree with, *wurđōn, is in what seems to be the genitive plural. They should all be in the nominative/accusative plural neuter here.
 * No distinction is shown between the genitive plural ending -ō in *wurđō and the n-stem feminine nominative singular -ō in *sunnō. These two forms had distinct endings in PG (-ǫ̂ for the first, -ǭ for the second) and in the West Germanic languages (OE -a, -e, OHG -o, -a). So it makes no sense at all to merge them here.
 * Effects of i-mutation are not shown in *kweđină, even though it's a common Proto-Germanic feature. It's not shown elsewhere either, like in *furi, but it's plausible that it was allophonic so that is not a huge problem.
 * I don't know if the Proto-Germanic reconstruction came from the same book, but if it did, that kind of makes things worse:
 * The loss of final -n with nasalisation is not shown in many of the forms, even though this was a common Proto-Germanic change.
 * Sievers' law is not shown in *rīkjan, which should have syllabic -ij- because the stem is long.
 * *ake and *seχwaime have final -e, which was lost earlier in Proto-Germanic.
 * Change of unstressed e to i is not applied.
 * I-mutation of e is also applied inconsistently, resulting in *seiþu instead of reconstructed *sīþu, *meinan instead of *mīnan, and *kweþinan instead of *kwiþinan. But it is applied in *bringiđi.
 * *burg- was a consonant stem, so its nominative singular was not *burgiz; *burgz is a more likely candidate.
 * Verner's law is not applied to the strong past participle *kweþinan, which should have the voiced alternant -d-.
 * There are just so many holes that can be poked in this that it should not be present in this article and should definitely not be presented as representing the current state of scientific research. It has all the hallmarks of a hobby project that you might find on the personal web page of someone who loves Germanic and wants to try their own hand at it. Not only does it disagree on rather fundamental research of the Germanic languages, but it doesn't even agree with itself on some points. It's just sloppy and badly researched, and it cannot be considered a reliable source.
 * For comparison, this is what I would come up with, with the problems worked out. This is original research so it should not appear in the article, but it gives an idea of what it should look like:

 * CodeCat (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your immediate answer. Right now, I don't have the time to answer in detail. My first impression is that you describe a somewhat later stage of West Germanic (around 600 CE?) than Euler did (about 400/450 CE), which could explain some of the differences. As I am in occasional contact with him, I will ask Euler`s opinion on your views. Two things are sure: 1. Euler is all but an amateur in linguistics and 2. the very positive comments of Bammesberger, Udolph and Pohl on this book are authentical. As to the moment, I think it is a good solution not to include the example sentences under discussion in the article but only mention the work of Nielsen, Klingenschmitt, Mottausch and also Euler (all known to you?) on the topic. As to me, I am not a linguist. My goal is to get excellent information on this subject in Wikipedia, and here, a lot remains to do. One example: The colored map used in this article (and in half a dozen more articles) shows about 50% of former East Prussia (today part of North Eastern Poland) in green as former "East Germanic" arae. This is clearly incorrect: The area was Baltic speaking - one incorrection among (still) pretty many. DownUnder36 (talk) 15:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Hello Codecat! Now I have received Euler's answer. He appreciates your educated remarks and agrees with them in one point (out of eight) concerning West Germanic and in two points (out of seven) concerning Proto-Germanic. Off course you are right with berχtŭ sunnō instead of berχtă sunnō. It's a typo as you have assumed yourself: "The fact that the correct ending is shown in *mīnŭ means that the author knew what the right ending was...". As to Proto-Germanic you are right with *rīkijan instead of *rīkjan and with *kweđinan instead of *kweþinan. Euler regrets these mistakes and asserts to be fully aware of Siever's and Verner's law. There are three further points which are open to debate. One is Proto-Germanic *burgiz vs. *burgz. As you write, the word once was an consonant stem; but later it became influenced by the i-stems and as to Euler it is impossible to decide if the nom. sing. form in the PG period showed (more recent) *-iz or (more archaic) simply *-z. The same applies to (later) final *-ą vs. (earlier) final *-an and to PWG *ganōǥă vs. *ǥanōǥă.

 * The other remarks Euler rejects: For example PWG *eχu "horse" is ascertained by OHG. ehuscalc = Old Saxon ehuskalk "groom" (literally "horse-servant"). PWG *kwemeđe you come instead of *kwimid is sure because of the OHG equivalent which shows the old "e" and not "i" in both positions. For the same reason, the PG form cannot be reconstructed as *kwimidi but should be *kwemeđe. PWG *dag instead of *daga or *dagă is clearly wrong with the Erfurt runic inscription of the 3rd century CE (found in 2012) showing ka[m]ba and not *kamb "comb" for masculine a-stems. Euler also rejects PG *sīþu and *mīn- instead of *seiþu and *mein-: The preservation of *ei is indicated by *teiva "god" in the Negau inscription, by the existance of the Eihwaz ("yew-tree") rune representing PG *ē2 in contrast to the Isaz ("ice") rune and by some further evidence. Furthermore, PG *seχwaime (and analogically *ake) should have preserved final *e, because final *m in the OHG successor would have been lost otherwise.

 * Euler sees some more errors in your reconstructions but suggests to discuss them directly with e-mail. You can get in touch with him by sending a short notice to his publisher: info@verlag-inspiration.de. As he appreciates your remarks, Euler also wants to have a free copy of the book sent to you; he would also do so himself if the publisher shouldn't. DownUnder36 (talk) 13:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC) DownUnder36 (talk) 19:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

hy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.189.170.220 (talk) 06:40, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Traditional
Article reads:
 * The West Germanic languages constitute the largest of the three traditional branches of the Germanic family...

What is meant by "traditional" here? Is there a "modern" classification which is different? Is there a question as to the validity of the three branches? As far as I know, no. So the word "traditional" is unnecessary here.

Map caption reads:
 * The traditional distribution of the Germanic languages in Europe...

I have no idea what "traditional" is supposed to mean here. The map clearly shows German ending at the Oder-Neisse line. This is a post-1945 phenomenon -- before then, there were millions of German-speakers in modern Poland, Kaliningrad (Russia), and the Czech republic. I will improve the caption. --Macrakis (talk) 20:30, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

 * I think I see what was intended by the "traditional branches", but the wording isn't good. I think West Germanic is still accepted as a grouping, even if Proto-West-Germanic is questioned. --Macrakis (talk) 21:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

 * The "traditional" view has been that Proto-Germanic split up in West Germanic, East Germanic and North Germanic. It's in many ways a workable structure, but according to "modern" linguists historically it is doubtful that a Proto-Westgermanic language ever existed. They think that after East Germanic broke off, the remaining Northwest Germanic language broke into North Germanic, North Sea Germanic (Ingvaeonic), Weser-Rhine Germanic (Istvaeonic) and Elbe Germanic (Irminonic). The latter three constitute the West Germanic languages. Frisian and English are Ingvaeonic, Dutch is Istvaeonic with some Ingvaeonic influences, and German is a mix of Irminonic and Istvaeonic.--Watisfictie (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The Family Tree
The family tree is deeply unsatisfactory. For a start, it is ensourced. But more to the point it is, to be blunt, ludicrous: the Rhine-Weser group apparently consists only of Dutch and no Central German dialects, and all the German dialects are grouped as Elbe Germanic. --Pfold (talk) 13:28, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language#/media/File:Altfr%C3%A4nkische_Sprache_600-700.png is a map sourcedly showing most of the area appearing as Central Franconian in other maps was part of Old Frankish and the one of Rhine Franconian as Elbe Germanic. Sarcelles (talk) 06:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

 * I don't think we should rely on an "own work" map on WP based on books solely devoted to Dutch (and therefore not about High German), I suggest looking at Chris Wells's German a Linguistic History. Fig. 3 on p. 39 has *all* Central German dialects derived from Weser-Rhine Gmc, and only Alemannic & Bavarian coming from Elbe Gmc. This is the standard view stated in a standard work, not something I would regard as idiosyncratic, and certainly you would need *much* better sourcing if you want to diagree with it. --Pfold (talk) 07:44, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Another source - the diagram from Maurer's seminal work: Elbgermanisch", "Weser-Rhein-Germanisch" und die Grundlagen des Althochdeutschen --Pfold (talk) 08:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Old Frankish and Langobardisch/Lombardisch
Where does Old Frankish fit in the article? I'm surprised that Langobardisch/Lombardisch are here, but the similarly extinct West Germanic tongue is not. That's kind of funny, because I think most people have the idea of Langobards/Lombards as an East Germanic tribe like the Burgundians, or at least might wonder why Burgundians are East, with the others West and perhaps not vice versa, or not the same between them either way, because those two seemed to have been related, judging by a common history after the Völkerwanderung, whereas Goths and Vandals rather disappeared. I don't think anyone confuses the category Goths and Vandals belong to and at least the former have their own version of the Bible to judge. One wonders how the Vandals and Alans conducted government in the dual kingdom at Carthage, with one Germanic and the other Iranian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.234.42 (talk) 00:23, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Yiddish is no more of a "daughter language of German" than Luxembourgish is
Rather, Yiddish is a sister language of the various High German dialects that formed the basis of Standard German, just as Moselle Franconian (Luxembourgish) is. I have rewritten the lede accordingly. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 19:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * For Yiddish not to be a daughter of German dialects, it would have to be a direct descendant of some branch of West Germanic - which it isn't - and it would have to be able to trace its origin back to prehistoric Northern Europe - which it can't. --Pfold (talk) 22:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Just about nothing in what you said is even slightly correct or even relevant. Please go read about daughter languages, the Yiddish language, the Germanic languages, historical linguistics, a language is a dialect with an army and navy, among other things. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 23:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * For that matter you don't even seem to have replied to the original point which is that German, Luxembourgish, and Yiddish are sister languages descended from Old High German. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 23:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Why don't we make the inflection tables consistent with those in Wiktionary?
After browsing a while through the Proto-West Germanic (PWG) Wiktionary entries and this article i noticed that the noun inflection tables here and in wiktionary are not in agreement with eachother. For example: here short -a is retained (as in *dagă), as are nasal vowels (as in *dagą) reflecting the earlier PWG after loss of word final z. While wiktionary reflects the later stage of PWG where both -ă and -ą are lost leading to *dag. Whouldn't it be better to have both be the same? 77.248.144.142 (talk) 18:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)Asjen

 * The coverage here is actually more accurate than Wiktionary's, assuming a Proto-West-Germanic stage. At the very least, those nasal ą's should not be dropped until the languages have already diverged. Old English infinitive form for most verbs is -an(from -aną), but the strong past participle is -en(from -anaz). Without the nasal vowel, there would be nothing to render these different results. Cynemund (talk) 10:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

"Respectively"
The sentence "The language family also includes Afrikaans, Yiddish, Low Saxon, Luxembourgish, and Scots, which are closely related to Dutch, German and English respectively" is problematic: you can't have five things related "respectively" to three things.

I would guess it's supposed to say something like "The language family also includes Afrikaans (closely related to Dutch), Yiddish, Low Saxon, Luxembourgish (all three of which are closely related to German), and Scots (closely related to English)" --Crink (talk) 22:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Agreed —Tamfang (talk) 05:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Except that Low Saxon is grouped historically with English as N.Sea Germanic. --Pfold (talk) 08:07, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Expanding the comparison tables?
I'm just writing to talk about perhaps expanding the vocabulary comparison tables on West Germanic languages since it doesn't really explore the breadth of West Germanic much. This comes after I made the addition of West Riding dialect, one of the many traditional Anglic Languages considered part of broad definitions of "English", which was quickly reverted.

Looking beyond Anglic, there are no exemplars of the wider modern German dialect continuum beyond Standard German. Moreover, while Afrikaans is an officially recognised distinct language, it developed from the broader Hollandic dialect as Standard Dutch. As a result its inclusion here over exemplars of the seperate West Flemish dialect group for example, is slightly perplexing if the objective is to give an overview of West Germanic vocabulary/word forms as a whole. The spectrum of West Germanic isn't covered even in a loose sense and thus I believe this needs to be rectified with more inclusions.

I would propose adding exemplars of Low and High German dialects, perhaps Wymysorys, as a start. Maybe removing Afrikaans since it essentially represents a second helping of the same narrow part of West Germanic as Standard Dutch insofar as its presence on the table is concerned. Additionally, we already have historical examples of Germanic in the form of the Proto-Germanic and Proto-West-Germanic on the tables, so is the addition of Old English and Old High German really necessary?

What do you think? Fendditokes (talk) 17:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Sources needed in Family tree
The following was left by unknown editor in a "citation needed" template in the article:

Since 30 November 2017, as it is unsourced, and contradicts:
 * Friedrich Maurer (linguist) & [[File:Einteilung der Germanen nach Maurer.de.svg]]: Elbe Germans consist of Alemanni and Bavarians, Weser–Rhine Germans of Franks
 * People are identified with their languages (Alemannic for Alemanni, Bavarian for the Bavarians etc.).
 * High German consists of both Upper Germanic (Alemannic, Bavarian [etc.]) and Central German (Middle Franconian, Thuringian, Upper Saxon [etc.]).
 * Franconian of the Franks developed into both Low Franconian (later Dutch) and Middle Franconian (part of High German).
 * Hans Frede Nielsen, Nordic-West Germanic relations, in: The Nordic Languages: An International Handbook of the History of the North Germanic Languages, volume 1 (series: Handbücher zur Sprach- und Kommunikationswissenschaft or short HSK 22.1), 2002, p. 558ff., here p. 558f.: "Thus Maurer (1952) [..] replaced West Germanic with as many as three primary groups: North Sea Germanic (Ingveonic), the ancestor of Frisian, Saxon and English; Weser-Rhine Germanic (Istveonic), which developed into Franconian, etc.; and Elbe Germanic (Erminonic), which later became Upper German."
 * Franconian developed into both Low Franconian (later Dutch) and Middle Franconian (part of High German).

BTW: Was already discovered 2019...

–  Primium  (talk) 20:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:West Germanic languages


text:
Lowland Scots

Lowland Scots can refer to:

 * people of Lowland Scotland
 * Scots language

title: Lowland Scots


text:
Talk:Steve Bracks

Untitled
Tannin, "little-known" is probably fair enough. --Robert Merkel 09:13 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)

Board memberships
He's been director of cbus since 2009, ref: https://www.cbussuper.com.au/about-us/how-were-run/board. In a recent Guardian article, he's commenting on politics /as the director of CBUS/ https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/15/scott-morrison-in-danger-of-becoming-a-climate-change-casualty-says-steve-bracks, so even though board memberships are usually pretty small in terms of hours, is this notable enough for inclusion? NcLean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.200.6.72 (talk) 08:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Tollway backdown
"In May 2003 Bracks made what many saw as his first serious error in office when he broke an election promise and announced that the proposed Scoresby Freeway in Melbourne's eastern suburbs would be a tollway rather than a freeway, as promised at the 2002 elections."

Certainly it was unpopular, but is it fair to say it was an error?

BenAveling 09:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Lol I could list a few things he's done prior to this that were unpopular and/or erroneous. ZPMMaker 09:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure you could. :-) Glad I've never made a mistake ;-) BenAveling 10:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Spouse
In the intruduction it mentions that his wife's name is Terry, however in the info box it says he is married to Lyn Bracks. Does he practice polygamy or is there some sort of error here? gnpaaron

 * Yes, there was an error, which has been fixed. Thanks for pointing it out. --Robert Merkel 08:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Brackswatch?
Somebody removed the link as "extremist". It is clearly highly critical of Bracks, but describing it as "extremist" seems rather harsh. I think it's probably relevant enough to add as an external link. --Robert Merkel 15:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, there is an ALP run link on the Howard page. May as well be consistent. Xtra 00:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

 * No, Brackswatch is not extremist. But it does choose to criticise the administration in a adversarial manner. If it was to provide a good critical analysis, then it would be relevant. However, I don't think it is appropriate to link what is clearly a Liberal Dirt Blog on Bracks. --Gomalcolm

 * Please! We keep other "dirt blogs" on other people. E.g. on John Howard there is Truth Overboard. This has been up for a while and there is no consensus to remove it. Xtra 10:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Political blogs of any kind should not be on these pages - whether Bracks or Howard. michael talk 10:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * See this on the howard talk page where I lost a similar battle there. So for consistency, I believe this one should be kept too. Xtra 10:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Brackswatch is a blog that apparently claims to be "Keeping Steve Accountable Until 2006", not disclosing the fact that it is a partisan website. Truth Overboard is an ALP site, which is apparent both on the webpage, and in the John Howard article next to the link.--Gomalcolm

 * It shouldn't matter whether they are partisan - it should matter if they're relevant. Neither are; they are simply attack blogs and do not deserve a link from this encylopedia. michael talk 10:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * They don't have a link to the Liberal Party website, nor are they pushing for anyone in the Liberal party in particular. You can't tag them as purely "Liberal". Anti-Bracks perhaps?--schgooda 03:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No, they don't have a link to the Liberal Party website, and they may even not be pushing for any one in the Liberal party in particular. But with articles like this Brackswatch - A weekend to consider the future I think it is pretty safe to tag them as Liberal. --Gomalcolm 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems Brackswatch is not the only site devoted to chronicling the Premier of Victoria and his government's alleged shortcomings. Maybe a link should be provided to Boot Out Bracks (which makes its position quite clear) at http://www.whitepage.com.au/Bracks41 Sites such as this surely give an indication of what some of the electorate are thinking and should therefore be pointed to. -- (James_Linton@fastmail.fm)

 * Its a good insider source of information regarding Steve Bracks. It contains quotes from Steve Bracks and balances the heavily spun official website written by his PR department. The link should stand as a matter of balance --User: anonymous 06:09, 2 Aug 2006 (UTC)

 * I removed it once as blogspam before reading this talk page. So if anyone's counting, count me as another vote against the brackswatch page link. --Scott Davis Talk 12:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I've added it back. The majority of comments on this page support the link being there.

 * Oh, I just removed it before I read this. add another vote against - The "truth overboard" one is different as it has an obvious byline and noone is going to think it otherwise. I could elaborate but hopefully people understand the difference in weight between major newspapers (local or statewide), websites sponsored (glaringly) by major political parties and fliers left on lunchroom tables and random rant blogs by noone in particular.

So many times material is removed which gives balance to the official Bracks propaganda, we the citizens of Victoria are entitled to give facts on what effects his real policies are having on us, even an W3C avalidity and accessibility test of the Bracks homepage is removed. Is Wicki just a servant of the Bracks' government media campaign. It makes Wicki worthless to remove all factual content relating to policies of his government. Leave Brackswatch and my entries on the world first drug testing of drivers, and the police state alone.

Lebanese Australian
Describing Bracks as "Lebanese Australian is a misnomer. It should be noted that his Maternal grandparents were Lebanese, but describing him as being purely lebanses is incorrect —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.137.56 (talk • contribs) . Any reference to is lebnese background is irrelevant. Do we say that John Howard is of Anglo-Celtic ancestry in Wikipedia? No. If perhaps Bracks had been born in Lebanon it would be relevant, but his ancestry has nof affected his plicies, or his character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gullivers travels (talk • contribs)

Bracks has passed a Religion and racial Vilification Act which prohibits free speech on race or religion, six months jails is the penalty, in light of his policy to jail Victorians for speaking about religion his religious background is relevant, why would he proposes such anti-free speech laws. Maybe he is from a strange Lebanese Catholic sect, it is a question worth asking in light of his laws against free speech.

 * Hate speech isn't quite the same thing as 'free speech'. 1) Is there such such a thing as 'pure' Lebanese anyway? 2) WRT to the comment about John Howard's ancestry - perhaps it would be a good idea if his ethnic background was included in the article on him - clearly it has influenced his policies. 3) WRT Bracks' ancestry, media articles about him have often referred to his ancestry, because in multicultural Australia ethnicity is notable, so in that sense it meets WP notability criteria anyway. And if Bracks' ancestry is perceived not to have affected his policies, then perhaps that is something that could be noted in the article. Eyedubya 19:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

textual infelicities
I don't edit articles on Australian politicians (since I work for one), but I note the following textual infelicities which someone might like to fix.
 * "Labor would arguably claim that their spending on education, culminating in what may be Victoria's lowest ever primary school class numbers as the Bracks Government main achievement." This sentence is awakward, ungrammatical and generally meaningless. What does "arguably claim" mean? Either Labor does make such a claim or they don't.
 * Fair point.

 * "Labor's most lasting reform under Bracks may well prove to be his changes to the electoral system in the state upper house." This is an opinion.
 * Agreed, but I think one that should be reinforced by some quotes by opinion articles. Changing an electoral system that has kept your opponents in control of one house of Parliament almost unbroken for a century is a pretty big deal.

 * "One could be forgiven thinking that Premier Bracks is an events organiser rather than Premier." This is a political opinion.
 * Agreed, and one that could equally have been applied to his predecessor...--Robert Merkel 00:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

 * "Premier Bracks continues to enjoy reasonable support, but it is envisioned the next election will be a watershed event if the government is re-elected." Envisaged by whom? In what sense a "watershead event"? The meaning of this sentence is most obscure.
 * Yep, needs editing.

 * On the question of Bracks' Lebanese ancestry, this is a biographical article, and a person's ethnic descent is part of their biography. It is meaningless to say that it is "irrelevant." How is his date of birth "relevant"? Bracks is the first state premier of Lebanese descent. This makes the fact notable, which is the important criterion.Adam 09:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it is relevant, though comparatively little has been made of it.

 * I'll try and fix the article in reference to your comments ASAP. -Robert Merkel 00:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I edited before reading here: I removed " (some of whom are of Lebanese origin)" from the first paragraph. I would not have removed it from a paragraph in a "background and childhood" section or similar, if it noted whatever the rest of his ancestry is, or from a paragraph that explained what impact Lebanese ancestry has had on his politics. Are either of these possible? I'm not from Victoria, but had never heard he was part-Lebanese until recently reading this article, and have not yet seen what impact it has. Did he make some strongly worded speech supporting Hezbollah or fit some other stereotype of Lebanese immigrants (rich, poor, refugee, refugee-made-good, Muslim, Christian, hard-working, lazy,...)? --Scott Davis Talk 13:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No, he didn't say a word during the war, and so far as I know his Lebanese descent has had no influence on his politics. But that isn't the point. This isn't an article about Things which have influenced Steve Bracks' politics, it's a biography, and his ethnic descent is part of his biography. It doesn't have to be "relevant" to anything, any more than his date of birth is "relevant." The purpose of an encyclopaedia is to give information. Which bits of information are relevant to anything else is a matter for readers. Someone researching Overseas Lebanese and Their Success in Business and Politics would find the reference very relevant. Adam 13:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * If he's part Lebanese, and that's relevant, then what are the other parts? They aren't identified, but are presumably just as important. If his Lebanese descent doesn't influence his politics, it doesn't belong in the lead paragraph. The precise date of his birth is equally irrelevant, but the year/decade is interesting to help put him in the context of his peers, and the rest of the date just goes with it. I imagine being a Maronite is actually a much more interesting and influential trait than being of Lebanese descent. Is it? --Scott Davis Talk 14:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know what his non-Lebanese ancestry is, presumably Anglo or Irish like most Victorians, but since that is the Australian "default ethnicity" it's not especially notable.
 * His ethnic descent does belong in the opening paragraph because that is the paragraph where his date and place of birth are mentioned. It would only need to be mentioned again further on if there was something more to say about it, which there doesn't seem to be.
 * A Maronite is a Lebanese Eastern Rite Catholic. If you say someone is of Lebanese descent, you have to specify whether they are of Christian or Muslim background, because there is a big difference (duh). Adam 14:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the only other Victorian Premier I can think of who was not of wholly Anglo-Scottish-Irish descent was Henry Bolte, who was of German descent. That fact is duly noted at his article. So is Morris Iemma's Italian parentage and Joh Bjelke-Petersen's Danish descent. Adam 14:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * All three examples appear to list complete ethnic origin, and in the section after the intro, not in the lead paragraph. Demographics of Lebanon says that there are 18 religious sects recognised in the Constitution of Lebanon, and at a rough count, at least five of those are Eastern Rite Catholic. I find it much more interesting that a Maronite was elected as a Labor premier than a third-generation (?) descendant of Lebanese extraction. --Scott Davis Talk 15:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think Bolte was German on both sides, I will have to check.
 * Bracks is not a Maronite, he's a Catholic. His Lebanese ancestors were Maronite. Adam 03:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * So his Maronite Lebanese ancestry is important enough to be in the second sentence and first category, but his own Catholicism is not important enough to mention anywhere in the article or to classify him in Category:Australian Roman Catholics? Why? If the article explained why, I'd (probably) be satisfied. It doesn't. --Scott Davis Talk 13:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

So put in yourself and stop complaining. Adam 13:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. But I'd rather either tie it into the article with some relevance later, or delete the entire sentence (and the two categories). --Scott Davis Talk 15:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have broken my vow of abstinence from Australian politician articles since no-one fixed the various illiteracies and irrelevancies which cluttered this article. As the election approaches this article will require constant attention to stop people turning it into a mess of "what happened today and what I think about it." Adam 15:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not sure that we can say his financial policies are "fiscally prudent", surely that is a matter of opinion--Scitty 04:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Bracks's likeable public persona and consensus-based approach to leadership made him popular with the electorate, and the partnership of Labor and the independents provided stable, fiscally prudent government. This too seems opinion based.?--Scitty 04:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Appears to need some changes rolled into it from at least: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Bracks&diff=prev&oldid=121155660 as entry has been vandalised

 * This article implies John Brumby was appointed State Treasurer after Labor's 1999 election win - however (as noted on John Brumby's page, and in the table at the bottom of this article) Steve Bracks took on both the role of State Treasurer and Premier, handing Brumby the position of Finance Minister and later promoting him to Treasurer in May 2000.

Steve resigns as premier announcement.
Just a quick link to an announcement. --Joewski 03:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The ABC website links to this Wikipedia article on their homepage.--cj | talk 02:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

On broken promises...
There is no mention of the fact that the promise wasn't just broken for the hell of it - the rail system nearly collapsed at the end of the previous year when National Express broke its contract (signed during the Kennett privatisation push a few years earlier) and simply abandoned the railways and if I recall correctly one of the tram operators as well. Bracks kept the trains running on a tight funding leash initially and then basically bought the system back and leased it to Connex. The money to pay for this ended up having to come from the tolls, which is why that election promise had to be broken. My memory of what occurred is based on the news at the time and is so hazy that I don't wish to edit it into the article, but I feel that without some reference to the background circumstances, the section of the article presents a considerable and POV bias against Labor. At present the article's chosen list of issues, with the exception of the electoral reform, reads like a grab bag of the Liberals' rather specific beefs with the current government, rather than an actual evaluation of Bracks's performance over time. Orderinchaos 16:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Longest Serving Labor Premier???
Article lists Bracks as the Longest Serving Labor Premier of Victoria. Linkqer (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * John Cain II served 8 years, 124 days
 * Steve Bracks served 7 years, 284 days

Julie Bishop's decision to revoke his appointment
It's been widely reported that she has revoked the appointment as Consul-General - but that can't be, because she has not yet been sworn in as Foreign Minister and has no power to take any such action. All she can do at this stage is signal her intention to revoke the appointment as soon as she is in a position to do so, next week. It's certainly prudent to let Bracks know this before the event, but that does not amount to a revocation at this stage. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Steve Bracks


text:
Blind Harry

Blind Harry (c. 1440 – 1492), also known as Harry, Hary or Henry the Minstrel, is renowned as the author of The Actes and Deidis of the Illustre and Vallyeant Campioun Schir William Wallace, more commonly known as The Wallace. This is a lengthy poem recounting the life of William Wallace, the Scottish independence leader, written around 1477, 172 years after Wallace's death.

Biography
Little is known about Blind Harry's life. One source is the Lord High Treasurer's accounts of 1473–1492, which recorded payments to him for performances at the court of James IV. Blind Harry was given gifts of money by the King at New Year, as were other minor courtiers, but a payment on 2 January 1492 seems to relate to the singing of a ballad accompanied by two Gaelic harpers, "Ersche clareschaw", mentioned in adjacent entries. This is the last mention of Harry in the accounts.

He is mentioned by William Dunbar on line 69 of his Lament for the Makeris early in the 16th century. Historian John Major also wrote about Harry in 1518. These sources differed on whether or not he was blind from birth, but Harry almost certainly seems to have had a military background.

Criticism
Harry's depiction of Wallace has been criticised by Major and others as being fictionalized. Some parts of it are at variance with contemporary sources, e.g., the work describes Wallace leading an army to the outskirts of London, and it includes some episodes of doubtful accuracy before Wallace enters history with the action at Lanark. It also describes him adopting the disguises of a monk, an old woman, and a potter while a fugitive, and travelling to France to enlist support for the Scottish cause, there defeating two French champions, as well as a lion. "Are there any more dogs you would have slain?", Wallace asks the French king.

Harry is often considered inferior to Barbour as a poet, and has little of his moral elevation, but he surpasses him in graphic power, vividness of description, and variety of incident. He occasionally shows the influence of Chaucer, and is said to have known Latin and French.

Blind Harry's words were made more accessible by a translation written by William Hamilton of Gilbertfield (c. 1665–1751) published in 1722. In this form they met the notice of poets such as Robert Burns, Lord Byron, Robert Southey, John Keats, Joanna Baillie, and William Wordsworth. It was also an important source for Randall Wallace in his writing of the screenplay of Braveheart, the award-winning Hollywood film. Most recently, in 1998, Elspeth King published Hamilton's text amended for modern readers as Blind Harry's Wallace.

Wallace folklore
Blind Harry mentions a number of battles or skirmishes fought by Wallace which are now regarded by historians as unhistorical. These battles are sometimes referenced as historical events by accounts which do not cross-check the stories in Acts and Deeds against another source. Dubious battles include the "Battle of Loudoun Hill" in 1296, the "Battle of Biggar" in 1297, and possibly also the "Battle of Elcho Park". In the case of the folkloric Battle of Loudoun Hill, later enthusiasts have erected a monument to Wallace at the site. (The folkloric battle should not be confused with the genuine Battle of Loudoun Hill fought by Robert the Bruce.) Similarly, the story of a mass hanging of Scots nobles at Ayr is described by Blind Harry, and is repeated in a number of places, including the film Braveheart, but is now regarded as unhistorical.

title: Blind Harry