text:
Talk:Ahmose I

GA Nomination Straw Poll
I'm all for this, but I'm very busy in real life. I'd like to take a straw poll to see exactly what our various opinions are, so we can fix things, and/or pick a good time to nominate this during which we can defend our work. Therefore...
 * Support nomination but not too soon if it's all the same with the rest of you. I don't have the time to adress things at the drop of a hat, what with schoolwork being particularly heavy right now. Thanatosimii 20:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Undecided for now. It still needs some work. I think once it's been improved some more it'll make an excellent GA nominee. — E  ditor at L arge  ( speak )  15:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Ah, what the heck. Go for it! After seeing some other articles that made GA I'd say this one'll do well. And if it doesn't make it, we'll at least have some good recommendations on what to fix up. — E  ditor at L arge  ( speak )  02:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support nomination but I agree with Thanatosimii on the "not too soon". I am very busy at the moment myself, for much of this month and the start of November. Having gone through the ordeal of getting an article through for Featured Article status, I would hope that the one for Good Article status would be considerably less of a fuss. But there's no rush as I see it, and there have been some additional good contributions by others of late as well. Captmondo 23:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Support nomination – I would just go for it, and if it gets shotdown in flames, renominate later. Markh 11:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, there it goes. Let's see how well this goes. Thanatosimii 04:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know how a GA nomination proceeds... Do we have to defend it anywhere, like for FA? Thanatosimii 04:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I passed the article, after making some very minor edits, all to do with language. I cant make any suggestions for improvement, since I'm not an expert in the field, but I see no reason why it shouldnt make FA as is. Great work! Druworos 14:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Mechanical trouble
For some reason, the tomb equipment of Ahhotep is not showing up, even though it's still in the actual code of the page... Does anyone know exactly why? Thanatosimii 00:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

 * One of the footnotes was missing a forward slash so it was hiding both the image and the next two paragraphs. Maybe the rest should be checked as well. — [ zɪʔɾɪdəʰ ]   ·   ☥  01:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Photo
Is a creepy mummy photo really the best thing to use for the front page image of this guy? I mean, sure, its him... but thats kinda like putting a jar of ashes as the photo for Gandhi, aint it? Murple 01:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The shabti isn't a free image and cannot be on the main page. It's fair use, but Today's featured article can't use free use images. I'd prefer to use the shabti picture too, but such is life. Thanatosimii 01:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That doesn't really make any sense to me... free use isn't free to use? That seems rather silly, but OK... Murple 07:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair use is only free to use solely to illustrate the subject in question (i.e. on the Ahmose I article page), so that having such a picture on related pages (i.e. the main page) may not qualify as fair use, if I'm right in thinking this...--HisSpaceResearch 14:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur. As soon as I saw this I was a little creeped out. It's like using autopsy photos of JFK off of rotten.com for his article. 68.55.58.183 03:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree all you like, but as I have said, nothing can be done about that. The Shabti is not a free image. If any of you live in brookyln and want to go take and GFDL a picture of the shabti in the Brooklyn museum, please do. However, we don't live there, and can't do anything about it. Thanatosimii 04:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's in the Brooklyn museum then? In that case, I intend to contend that it's replacable... Nil Einne 15:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I see "one of which resides in the Brooklyn Museum of Art, the other in the Khartoum Museum". I'll be tagging it as soon as it's unprotected if an admin doesn't earlier. Nil Einne 15:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is quite unreplaceable. First of all, the other images are of colossal statuary, what we need is that shabti, that's only in brooklyn I believe (or perhaps it was in the british museum). Second, that tag says "It should be possible for someone to create or find a freely licensed replacement for this fair use work". Find; no. All such images are copyrighted. Create an adequate replacement; also no. Any replacement is likely to be a cruddy duplicate at best. It is not practically possible to replace that image. Thanatosimii 18:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Er you seem confused. Given that the shabti is in a public museum in Brooklyn, there is absolutely no reason why someone can't photograph the one in Brooklyn museum and freely license the image rather then use using a photo taken from some British museum under fair use as we currently do. No one is talking about replacing the shabti itself, there is absolutely no need since the info we have suggests there are two shabti's in exitance, publicly viewable and we assumeable photographable... The shabti itself can't be copyrighted since it was create several thousands years ago and thankfully even with the current insane copyright laws on the US, they don't consider such a work copyrighted Nil Einne 16:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There is only one shabti, and it is in the british museum, now that I check it. The other two are colossi. I am not certain that any of them are publically viewable at any given time. We would love a free image replacement, however the chances that it can be done are very low. That is, unless wikipedia wants to finance a several thousand dollar trip to britain for either myself (A native minnesotan), a Portlander or a denzien of Toronto. My objection is that the fair use argument stands on sound legal footing – the statement that the image should not be replaceable is wikipedia's requirement, not the law's, and recall that one of the highest rules is ignore most of the rules if they interfere with wikipedia's best interest. With no legal qualms, while a free image is better, no such image is avalable within reason. The tag you wish to put on says that the image may be deleted if progress is not made within a reasonable amount of time, and the demands being asked of us are unreasonable; yet some delete-happy admin is surely going to come in and delete the image anyhow, if you put that tag up. Thanatosimii 20:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, there's more apparently. The wikipedia rules say, "not reasonably repeatable," thus establishing that my position is actually in alignment with the letter of the law for wikipedia too! Thanatosimii 20:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I work 5 minutes walk from the British Museum, do you want me to get anything photoed ? Markh 20:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, Nil Einne, forget all that; I forgot Markh was british (slinks off sheepishly) Thanatosimii 20:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Depends if the British shabti is photographable. The implication of suggests that it is part of a special collection not typically on show to the public, and whether or not they would allow Markh to come in and take a photo for Wikipedian purposes is unlikely. Captmondo 15:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I can probably get to see it, but taking a photo is probably out of the question. Is there any other depiction of him available ? Markh 19:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah okay now I understand what all this British Museum stuff was about. Anyway as I've explained all over the place, I withdrew the tag because of the museum restrictions. But no image is in fact better then fair use when the image is resonably replacable and even if you don't agree, policy dictates it is as does precedent so it should have been deleted were it not for the museum policies. Nil Einne 13:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll probably leave this for ever after this. But I just wanted to point out that this case perhaps illustrates why the policy is effective. Although this image is not replacable, this FA went on the main page with a picture of a mummy with from what I can tell, limited or nor consideration for replacament of the fair use photo which would have been better on the main page were it not fair use. Only when I pointed out it was in violation of policy and suggested it be deleted (which I know realise was wrong) did anyone really start to consider to replace it. I don't think this is unique either. I'm pretty sure there have been other cases when we've survived with fair use photos for a long time. Only when they were deleted or tagged for deletion were they replaced. Nil Einne 14:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Your "policy" - which as I read more, the way you are implementing it does not exist - almost got a vital image deleted because the a group of deletionists obstinatly refuse to actually do themselves what they want others to do. Thanatosimii 14:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Dab repairing
Could someone fix the Ahhotep dab? I'm not sure which queen is supposed to be. --Brand спойт 00:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanatosimii 04:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

query dominant info box
Is it possible to put the info box on the right? Some pharoah articles have these and it seems a neater way to get to the textual information quickly. If this wall-to-wall layout is not 'style' and putting it on the right is, can someone change it and explain how it's done please? Julia Rossi 00:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it can be done until Markh finds the free version of the image we need in the near future. Thanatosimii 04:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason for the layout change is due entirely to someone adding the replaceable fair use image request in the pharaoh infobox, which screws up the layout. When that request goes away (possibly taking the image with it) then the infox will return to the usual right-aligned formatting. Captmondo 15:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, people... Julia Rossi 06:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahmoses, and Moses?
Has this connection ever been entertained? certainly a Pharoah under the name Ahmoses, leading nearly 100,000 semites thru the desert to Canaan might possibly have lead an impression on later generations? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.154.31 (talk) 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC). --71.215.154.31 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It has not been seriously entertained by scholars, although some non scholars produced a documentary about it. Further, Ahmose's army could not have been near 100,000. Minor raid at best. Thanatosimii 05:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the history channel special on Moses being during this pharoah's reign? "The Exodus decoded"
 * I've heard enough about it to know it's totally unscholarly and pretty ridiculous. The History Channel can rarely be trusted. Thanatosimii 18:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Moses of the Bible was seen as a liberator of the Hebrews. Amoses I, was seen as a liberator of the Egyptians.

Moses freed the Hebrews from bondage, and led them through the desert to Canaan. Amoses I, freed the Egyptians from Semite bondage, and expelled the Semites from Egypt through the desert into Canaan.

The names "Amoses", and "Moses" are identical names. Historical Kernels indicate we are talking about the same man, a figure who had profound effect on the ancestors of the Hebrews and Canaanites--and was reshaped for religious and political needs of the time. --71.215.154.31 23:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

 * That would never be accepted as sufficient to make a historical claim, especially because the claim that Moses and Ahmose are the same name is quite... false. They share the word ms, but that's a common word in over half the names of kings in the new kingdom. Four Thutmoses, and eleven Rameses... all these names contain ms. Add to that viziers and archetects like Ramose and Minmose, and you've got a plethora of names that share as much in common with moses as Ahmose does. Thanatosimii 02:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Jehovas Eyewitness
Jehovas Eyewitness have said the exode was in 1513 bevor our timeline. But the name mose and Ahmose are not the same. In the new translation the pharaons are not named.

Rene nguyen 2008-04-14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.62.229.47 (talk) 10:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Do we have factual inaccuracy now?
The new photo of Ahmose's statue looks great now, however the location where it says it comes from is not one of the three places which have statues according to the article. I have to wonder, is it the source which is incorrect, and has the wrong locations, or is it simply out of date and this is a fourth piece of statuary? Thanatosimii 21:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Hard to say. The plaque that accompanied the display of the statue head at the Metropolitan mentioned that it was a "recent acquisition" from 2006. I have no idea if this is a coincidence or not, but the Brooklyn Museum's example was not there, and there was no sign explaining its absence. Perhaps the two museums did a deal recently? (Though the plaque mentioned it was a gift from a particular donor). Can't say with any certainty either way however, as I haven't seen any pictures of what was/is in the Brooklyn Museum. And of course it could also be a recently identified piece by the Met as well. Captmondo 02:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I see you've changed the reference on the page with regard to the number of statuary images, yet I suspect it still to be true. While at the Metropolitan in NYC I also picked up the catalog to the recent Hatshepsut exhibition (which had already come and gone from that particular venue). However there is an updated piece by the same author cited in the original reference who talks about the statuary of the early 18th dynasty, and the image of the Ahmose I statue which is now in the Met is listed in the illustrations as a privately owned piece. I suspect that the piece currently on show at the Met is in fact a loan from the Brooklyn Museum and/or the individual who owns the piece. The book also mentions an additional statue currently in a Scottish museum as quite possibly representing Ahmose I as well, which would add another to the known total. Will track down that section in the book and will post the info accordingly. (Did you want a scan of the section in question for reference?)

 * Cheers! Captmondo 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It'd be nice to have somthing for reference, but if you know how to get the facts straightened out with the fourth object as well, I think you understand what's going on better than I. Thanatosimii 05:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Time allowing, will hopefully sort it out this evening (a pending snowstorm may change that, however). I may also ask the EFF listserv to see if anyone there can add anything further.

 * Have been largely spending my time of late sorting out the pictures I took as well as those of others over at Wikimedia. Probably by the end of the week I'll have added the rest of other potentially useful images.

 * One other thing you might want to consider adding to articles is an image gallery, like the one I recently added to the article on KV54. Take a look at the listing at: or  for examples of hitherto used/unused images which could be used an a gallery at the bottom of the page.

 * Cheers! Captmondo 20:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Okay, I think I've set the record straight now. I looked up both references, and it turned out that earlier one referenced the statue head in the Brooklyn Museum, and also had a black and white illustration of it. And voila! it is the same one I saw at the Metropolitan Museum and took the photo of. So either the Met has fully acquired it from the Brooklyn Museum, or it is simply on loan. I would guess the latter, since it was evidently part of the touring Hatshepsut exhibition, but playing things conservatively, have identified its location where I actually saw it, at the Met. It is, however, the same statue, so the confirmed number stays the same. I also mentioned another possible 3D representation of him currently residing in a museum in Scotland as well. Everything is referenced, so we're good. Captmondo 03:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The image was recently changed for unspecified reasons. I put it back to the statue, since generally 3d is better than 2d, lest there is a reason to change. Thanatosimii 22:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed from main page
"It was he who confronted Moses, many evidence are found in cairo museum today... most shocking is his stela,now lies in the basement of Cairo museum, which tells the whole incident of darkness, hail ,sea turning to blood, locust ,and in wich order it came just as the bible state.. evidence sorrounding his pyramids tombs ,his empire basicaly, concludes that the Exodus indeed happen... also he kept a journal like monument telling the whole story in his point of view... by the way if you translate Ahmose in hebrew, it means the brother of Moses"

Any reason to keep this anon. contribution to the sum of human knowledge? Lou 01:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Given that the original posting used a contact email address for the supposed sender (check a few edits back), that there was no citation to back it up, and the poor spelling/punctuation, this is clearly stating a personal opinion and definitely not a scholarly posting. Delete with impunity as far as I am concerned. Captmondo 02:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

 * It's clearly from a Jacobovici supporter... who doesn't realize everything Jacobovici says is wrong. Brother of Moses, for instance, would be Senmose or Senmessu depending on what period of the Egyptian language the name was created during. Thanatosimii 03:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

info/pic box
Is it possible to have a normal size info box...I came to this page and looked really wrong 172.213.201.227 21:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hebew Meaning of Name - Exodus Decoded
I'm just putting this up for future reference. I'm hoping this doesn't actually warrant a discussion. This thing came up in the thoroughly debunked 'Exodus Decoded' documentary. Apparently, in Hebrew 'Ah' means brother, and 'Mose' means Moses, which is used to support the conjecture that Ahmose I was the pharaoh of the Exodus. There are numerous problems with this claim: 1. The actual hieroglyphics in the guy's name read  The name is traditionally read by Egyptologists today as Yahmes. 'Ahmose' is a mangled obsolete misreading of the name, still used traditionally. The actual pronunciation during the pharaoh's lifetime could have been different. Still, Yahmes has nothing to do with Hebrew Ah Mose, and means something like 'moon born' or 'moon is born', etc. 2. Even the very Hebrew conjecture is suspect, since Moses is an English version of the Greek variant of the traditionally Hebrew Mosheh. Egyptian would have differentiated between 's' and 'sh' in Mose / Mosheh. '''---

3. Absolutely no other research points to Ahmose's reign of 1550–1525 BC as the supposed time of the Exodus, and research used by the documentary has been universally rejected not just by the scientific community, but even by biblical scholars convinced that each word of the Bible is the literal truth.

It's really sad that the History Channel continues to run this fiction. Nice production values, but a complete mockery of science. It's mind boggling. Sad to see wikipedia get polluted with this nonsense. Flyboy Will (talk) 00:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC) '''---

 * See my edit here on Exodus Decoded. Doug Weller (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but you cannot assume what the ancient Egyptians would do. And not "traditioanlly Hebrew", just "Hebrew". Mosheh has a meaing in Hebrew, and the name was given to him by the Egyptian princess to indicate the baby's withdrawal from the Nile waters. Mosheh = this person was pulled out of the waters. All this is according to the Bible. Moses became a prince of Egypt, a member of the royal family, with a father pharaoh that could have named one of his sons Ahmose, using Hebrew and not the Egyptian language, to show affection/love to Moses.''' John Hyams (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The question is this: Do you believe in the Exodus story? In no, then your remarks are worhtless. If yes, when then? When did it happen? If King David already established his kingdom at around 1000BC, then the Exodus should have occured around 500 years before that, according to the same bible and historians. And, by the way, even of you think the documentary is nonsense, you should not delete the link to its Wikipedia article. Readers are entitled to know that there is a History Channel documentary suggesting that Ahmose I was the pharaoh of the Exodus, regardless of whether it's correct or false. The existence of the documentary should be mentioned in "See also".''' John Hyams (talk) 23:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

 * John, please don't put your comments in side someone else's. And why not say 'If you believe in the Exodus story your comments are worthless because they are motivated by your belief?' My point being please don't make comments like that.  In Egyptian, 'Mose', 'Moses', 'Mes' etc. means 'son of' and 'Ah' is a common part of Egyptian royal names referring to the moon god Iah. Shaw, Ian, The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, Oxford University Press, 2003, page 209 Doug Weller (talk) 05:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

 * John, let's not get into beliefs and more complex stuff. Let's review the actual claim here. It makes absolutely no sense for a very simple reason, and that the Pharaoh of the Exodus simply could not be Moses' brother. That's according to the Bible itself. First of all, the Bible says absolutely nothing about the old pharaoh dying, and his son and Moses's old buddy becoming the new king of Egypt. That's the Hollywood version. Bible simply talks of a Pharaoh, and whether there's one pharaoh here and another one there is pure conjecture unsupported by any evidence, biblical or otherwise. Secondly, Moses is fished out of the Nile by the pharaoh's daughter, and it was her who adopts Moses, not the pharaoh. Therefore, Moses is the Pharaoh's adopted grandson. And you have to agree that it's a giant stretch to assume that while Moses was away, the old Pharaoh died, his son replaced him (Moses' uncle), who also died, and was finally replaced by the old Pharaoh's grandson, and Moses' brother. Too many generations there. Your "Moses became a prince of Egypt, a member of the royal family, with a father pharaoh" is pure fantasy. The Bible says nothing of the sort. Whether it worked in a Charlton Heston movie doesn't mean anything.
 * Secondly, it's just silly to assume that a royal family would name an heir to the throne in reference to an adopted kid, and make his name a foreign language pun no less. Remember, in those pre-Christian days, monogamy wasn't very popular with royalty, and pharaohs had multiple wives and lots of children. One of the pharaoh's daughters adopting a kid wouldn't be such a huge deal at court that when a legitimate heir was born, the adopted kid would be remembered when the heir was named. If it's hard to picture how things were like thousands of years ago, just try to imagine the queen of England naming her son and the future king after an orphan the Countess of Wessex fished out of a river. Now, seriously.
 * Finally, regarding Ahmose specifically, he was preceded by his full brother named Kamose. Notice the -mose? Ahmose's mom's name was Ahhotep. Notice the Ah-, moon? If Ahmose's name was a pun, it was a pun on his mom being 'Peace of the Moon', and on his big brother being a Ka-mose. He's an Ah-mose, a link between Ah-hoten and Ka-mose. I mean, I can't believe I just wrote this whole thing about a completely insane theory based on the fact that a English-mangled version of an Egyptian name sounds like a Greek-mangled version of a Hebrew name. We might as well then claim that the old president of Russia was a CIA sleeper agent who was 'Put-in' there in a wide-reaching conspiracy. Give me a break. Flyboy Will (talk) 08:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, we'd need to ignore all we know about Kamose and Ahmose chasing out the Hyksos and in one sense 'liberating' Egypt, or reclaiming it, or whatever, for this to make any sense. Doug Weller (talk) 11:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The Egyptian name is spelled in Egyptian hieroglyphs with a crescent moon, which makes it clear that it refers to the Egyptian word for Moon, certainly not to the Hebrew word for "brother" (which is akh - with a guttural sound that is not in the Egyptian name). Furthermore, the name is given to Egyptian nobility of both genders and various centuries. In short: The claim of the name being related to Moses is nonsensical. Das Baz 17:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Flyboy that the History channel broadcasts fiction as ffact. So does Discovery channel.

4.248.217.40 (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Kamose, then Ahmose
OK, folks, (men, women, (and the young and bold)), here are some facts: first, there was "Kamose", pharaoh-(Ka-Mes) then, there was Ahmose-(Ah-Mes) I was going to start defending the name 'Moon-Born', but here is my Epiphany (feeling), (which is actually: Epiphany (realiazation)). ...Since these two fellows followed one another:  'Ka-Born' , then  'Ah-Born' , there was probably some focus on some society changes. "Ka-(spirit)-Born", implies this 'heavenly', ethereal, untouchable stuff, but switching to something we see, and feel, a monthly moon that goes through its changes of getting brighter and weaker (during its closest approaches in orbits, I think the recent numbers given are: up to 14 percent larger (at close approach), and 30 percent brighter)),.... ...it might be totally easier to think of "Moon-Born" as a return to Earthly problems and responsibilities. (If a society only focusses on the religion, and untouchable, ethereal stuff, then the problems of an organized, agricultural, political, human society, may get ignored). I am Not saying the Moon-Born is a better name for "Ah-mose I". I am saying: His name is 'Moon-Born'; he followed a predecessor named: 'Spirit-Born' . An evaluation of these pharaohs, their "states of the Union"-(of ancient Egypt), could sway opinions, ..about their names. (From the HotDesert..SonoranDesertArizona)..Mmcannis (talk) 15:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup
I fixed the link problems that a bot was complaining about at the top of this page. I removed the references to Iah, because while iah may be the Egyptian word in Ahmose's name, it's not necessarily the specific moon god intended; I've seen scholars wonder if the "moon" in question might really be a reference to Thoth, given the later Thutmosids. There also doesn't seem to be a specific place in mummy which it would be appropriate to section-link, so I removed the broken section links entirely. Thanatosimii (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Re removal of Iah: What source says that it does not refer to Iah? I find references to the fact that Ahmose (Iah-ms) is a reference to the moon god Iah is every reliable source I can find: Bierbrier (Historical dictionary of ancient Egypt 2008), Hornung and Bryan (The quest for immortality: treasures of ancient Egypt 2002), Wilson (Understanding hieroglyphs: a complete introductory guide 2005), etc. That seems like more than enough to warrant inclusion in the article. --AnnekeBart (talk) 23:23, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Radiocarbon dates and Ahmose
A 2010 article in Archaeometry shows that the Hyksos expulsion comes very near the time of the explosion of Thera. For Ahmose to be involved, he cannot have reigned in the 1500s BCE. If you can get hold of the following in a university library or through interlibrary loan, read it. I paid to get a copy and it was worth every penny. Manning, S.W., and B. Kromer, “Radiocarbon Dating Archaeological Samples In The Eastern Mediterranean, 1730 To 1480 Bc: Further Exploring The Atmospheric Radiocarbon Calibration Record And The Archaeological Implications”, Archaeometry, Vol. 53, Issue 2, pp. 413-439, April 2011 4.248.217.40 (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The article states that the Tell el-Daba site seems to be older as suggested by Bietak. But it does not follow that this means Ahmose I lived during an earlier period. An article by Ramsey et al in Science (Radiocarbon-Based Chronology for Dynastic Egypt, Ramsey, et al., Science 18 June 2010: 1554-1557.) shows that the conventional dating of the reign of Ahmose is consistent with the data from carbon 14 dating. This article by Ramsey is quoted several times by Manning and Kromer and not put in doubt. Bruins published an article in the same issue of Science (Dating Pharaonic Egypt Science 18 June 2010: 1489-1490.) Bruins mentions the discrepancies between the Bietak and Manning/Kromer studies. Ultimately either one of the C14 dates could be wrong, or Tell el-Daba has a slightly different history as proposed initially. Alternative issues mentioned in the articles include the fact that the strata in tell el-Daba were rather disturbed and the association of certain layers with time periods may not be as they first appeared? Non of the articles draw the conclusion Ahmose I reigned earlier than stated in the article here on Wikipedia. --AB (talk) 19:32, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Would be intersting to look at new evidence. It seems that now the tempest stela and ahmose reign could be linked to the Thera axplosion. : Ritner, R.K. and Moeller, N. 2014. The Ahmose ‘Tempest Stela’, Thera and Comparative Chronology, Journal of Near Eastern Studies 73: 1-19. : — Preceding unsigned comment added by RigOLuche (talk • contribs) 23:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Article by Moeller on Tempest Stele from 2014: https://www.academia.edu/6683011/The_Ahmose_Tempest_Stela_Thera_and_Comparative_Chronology

100.15.117.207 (talk) 19:21, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Born of Iah, not Born of the Moon
The syllable Ah in the name Ahmose is a theophoric syllable. Ahmose I. was the first pharao in the ruling dynasty which was named after him, the Ahmosides. The deity of this ruling dynasty was Iah, a moon deity.

Theoporic syllables were very common in ancient Egypt. See: Ramesses_I Ra-moses -> Born of Ra and not Born of the Sun

--Basti Schneider (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Ok, I see your point, but isn't it a little misleading or suggestive to put Jah to the right of the pipe, instead of Iah? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I disagree on two grounds. This rendering leaves the name untranslated and overly specific. Iah is the moon. To argue that the name is not to be rendered "born of the moon," but "born of the god Iah" wouldn't make sense to the Egyptians - the moon is the god Iah. Egyptian doesn't have separate words for the god and the astronomical feature, cf. Sol and Luna in Latin. "Born of Iah," thus, leaves untranslated a word which must be conceived of as being, strictly speaking, the common noun "moon." Secondly, since Iah simply is Egyptian for moon, all moon gods are Iah, in much the same way all sun gods invariably end up being bundled together into Ra somehow. It is thus uncertain whether the moon god in question here is the moon god whose name simply means moon god, or the moon gods par exellence of the 18th dynasty, Iah-Thoth and Iah-Khonsu. I stated here a few years back that I had read someone argue that the Iah in question may very well be taken as a reference to Thoth due to the use of Thoth as the theophor of the Thutmosids of the same dynasty, and I spent the morning looking for that source without success, but I am for this reason not particularly comfortable with the claim the article presently makes, at least not until someone comes around with a paper demonstrating that Ahmose must be a reference to the vanilla moon deity because of late 17th or early 18th dynasty connections to the cult of Iah as a distinct entity from the other moon gods to which he was melded in the early New Kingdom. And, being honest, I am even more concerned that this is a sideways attempt to insert material from The Exodus Decoded into this page. For those who aren't following the state of modern crackpotism, Iah is taken by a certain documentary to be the origin of the name of Yahweh, since Iah is presently pronounced the same as its first syllable, and laypersons view this as significant. All else held equal, this article probably shouldn't say things that might reinforce all the nonsense which has been manufactured about Ahmose over the last decade. If not "born of the moon," "born of the moon god" is a perfectly acceptable translation, and won't dangle a false cognate in front of the crackpots for them to grab onto. Thanatosimii (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Wrong picture for Ahmose vs Hyksos
The picture for the Conquest of the Hyksos section is not Ahmose I and the Hyksos, but actually a depiction of Ramesses II at the battle of Kadesh, taken from a modern mural. It also appears incorrectly labelled in a few other articles, there I’d suggest changing ‘Hyksos’ to ‘Hittites’ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.225.93.152 (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Number
After it is clear now, that Senakhtenre had the nomen Ahmose, we should rename the article to Ahmose II. 82.16.170.193 (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

 * Nope. We don't decide those things. If the majority of published sources start using that nomenclature, sure. But this isn't the first time a new discovery screws up the established number system, and scholars don't necessarily renumber when these kinds of discoveries are made. It tends to cause confusion in the literature because two different books may be referring to two different people by the same name. Cf. Sobekhotep and Intef Thanatosimii (talk) 13:35, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Scholars are not a uniform bunch, and some already renumber this Ahmose (as well as the one in the 6th century BC, "Amasis"), while some do not. To leave the number uncorrected is ultimately as problematic as correcting it, since either can cause confusion, and in different ways and to different extent over time. While surely correctness ought to be preferred, I think it is worth pointing out that in such instances recourse to including the throne name would be advisable, especially as it is not shared with the other two kings named Ahmose. So perhaps it would be most accurate and preferable to name the article "Nebpehtyre Ahmose." Moreover, the article ought to indicate the numbering issue in some way. Similar issues have cropped up with the numbering of kings named Shoshenq (to the point of a coalition of Egyptologists actually declaring a standard, with some counterfactual implications!) and Osorkon (with the Osorkon in Dynasty 21 labeled variously "Osokhor," "Osorkon the Elder," or "Osorkon I"). StefThrax (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 04:55, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

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According to the ancient Historian Manetho, Ahmoses I was the pharaoh during the Exodus.
Should we add an Ahmose in Literature section, or put it in its own section, or...  something? I'm not sure erat the usual protocol here is. It's a very interesting claim from a very ancient source (and interestingly, Ahmose's Crown Prince did predecease him,  just like according to Moses.)  I don't want to make this into a theological discussion,  I just think that it's  an important enough claim (thousands of years old, and from an ancient historian) to add to his page, but I'm not sure how/where to do it. Tabbycatlove (talk) 05:49, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

 * No, Josephus tells us that according to Manetho the Hyksos were finally expelled I in the reign of Misphragmuthôsis. Josephus actually says it's in his sons reign, Thummôsis, but he does not realize that Misphragmuthôsis is Thutmose III, and his son was Amenhotep III. He implies that they were defeated by Ahmose I but expelled by Misphragmuthôsis.  If you allow that the whole story of the Hyksos Is political propaganda, the parallel is obvious that the Hebrews are subjugated by Ahmose I or perhaps Amenhotep I, but are expelled by Misphragmuthôsis, which corresponds to the date of the Exodus given by the Bible.

The official accepted scholarship here ignores most of this information from Manetho. Even here in the article it says "all we know about this comes from the mathematical papyrus", which is false, much more is learned from the Manetho epitome than goes in to the conclusion reached by the scholars presented here on the matter. The relation between the Hyksos and Joseph and his people sojourning in egypt and their expulsion with the Exodus it is blatant, and it is systematically downplayed by scholars. The biblical chronology places Joseph the sojourn and the Exodus exactly parallel to where the Egyptian chronology places the story of the Hyksos. I have never seen people so afraid that something so obviously true might actually be true. 2600:1004:B05B:1D18:15E3:7AD6:EC65:9B24 (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Citations needed
G'day all, there appear to be a few parts of this article that aren't referenced. Given that the article is currently rated as a featured article, I think it is pretty important that this gets rectified, if possible. As such, I have marked where I think more citations are needed with Cn tags, with this edit: If there is anyone who is able to assist with adding these, I am sure the effort would be greatly appreciated. G'day, not sure if you can help, but figured I'd ask given that you may have some references applicable to this area based on other articles you have edited in the past. Thanks for your time. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC) are you interested in returning to address the rest of the citation needed templates? If not, would you like to notice this and start the FAR process? Z1720 (talk) 02:49, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Have begun work. Would probably be good for someone to check over the formatting of my citations, as I'm not used to the style. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  07:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * For the but these were rejected by the majority of Egyptologists even before the radiocarbon date was published in 2010. bit, the New Chronology (Rohl) article provides citations for both the fact that a lot of people disagreed with Rohl, and that the radiocarbon date didn't back it up, but I've been unable to find a source which says both. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  07:05, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at this. The citation style seems a little different to the ones I am used to, also, I'm sorry. Regarding the point about 2010, I wonder if potentially the sentence in the article could be reworded slightly to match the sources you mention above (if you have access to them to verify)? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:34, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * (Apologies for the long wait) I think the uncited material could be fairly easily removed, my major concern is, with the age of the article, how many of the refs may have been muddled, and how current scholarship is, etc. I'll have to take a deeper look to see if it can be made "good enough for now" or if the whole article would be better served by being completely scrubbed. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  02:39, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ahmose I


text:
User:Mac

For reference when considering WP:CSD#G5 deletions:
 * 17:51, 10 November 2008 EdJohnston (talk | contribs) blocked Mac (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite  (Disruptive editing: This is a conditional indef block. Will be lifted immediately if you join discussions. See your Talk)

There have been no subsequent appeals.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Mac


text:
If You're Happy and You Know It

"If You're Happy and You Know It" is a popular traditional repetitive children's song, folksong, and drinking song. The song has been noted for its similarities to "Molodejnaya", a song appearing in the 1938 Soviet musical film Volga-Volga.

History
The origin of the melody is not known, but numerous sources trace it back to Spain, Latin America, Latvia or the United States of America. The most common melody used for the song resembles a lento rendition of "Spring" by Vivaldi.

The song was published in various places through the decades following the late 1960s, including a volume of "constructive recreational activities" for children (1957), a book of drama projects for disabled children (1967), and a nursing home manual (1966).

In 1971, Jonico Music filed for copyright on the song, crediting it to Joe Raposo.

During the early part of the 2000s, the music Recording Industry Association of America sued individuals for downloading music using file-sharing services. Widespread media attention was paid to one 12-year-old, whose downloads included "If You're Happy and You Know It" from Kazaa.

In 2007, the song was included as part of the Nihon no Uta Hyakusen, a list of the 100 most well-known folk songs in Japan. It is one of nine songs from foreign countries included on the list. It was selected by the Agency of Cultural Affairs and the National Congress of Parents and Teachers Associations of Japan.

In 2020, Granger Smith recorded a version that relied on alcohol drinking called "Country and Ya Know It".

Lyric variations
Like many children's songs, there are many versions of the lyrics. A popular version goes as follows:  If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands! If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands! If you're happy and you know it, and you really want to show it; If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands!

This verse is usually followed by more which follow the same pattern but say: "If you're happy and you know it, stomp/stamp your feet!", "If you're happy and you know it, shout/say 'hooray'!" or "shout/say 'amen'!", "If you're happy and you know it, do all three!", "If you're happy and you know it, do all four!". Other versions of the song tend to say, "then your face will surely show it" in place of "and you really want to show it"; the form "then you really ought to show it" has also been used. Many variations on the substance of the first three verses exist, including:
 * "... stomp/stamp your feet!"
 * "... do all three, four, etc.!"
 * "... say, "HOORAY!""
 * "... do all three!"

Melody
There is a notable variation from the 5th measure (including pick-up note) to the 6th measure, attested in Japan.

title: If You're Happy and You Know It


text:
Marianne Moore

Marianne Craig Moore (November 15, 1887 – February 5, 1972) was an American modernist poet, critic, translator, and editor. Her poetry is noted for its formal innovation, precise diction, irony, and wit. In 1968, she was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Literature by Nobel Committee member Erik Lindegren.

Early life
Moore was born in Kirkwood, Missouri, in the manse of the Presbyterian church where her maternal grandfather, John Riddle Warner, served as pastor. Her father, John Milton Moore, a mechanical engineer and inventor, suffered a psychotic episode, as a consequence of which her parents separated before she was born; Moore never met him. She and her elder brother, John Warner Moore, were reared by their mother, Mary Warner Moore. The family wrote voluminous letters to one another throughout their lives, often addressing each other by playful nicknames based on characters from The Wind in the Willows and using a private language.

Like her mother and her brother, Moore remained a devoted Presbyterian, strongly influenced by her grandfather, approaching her Christian faith as a lesson in strength vindicated through trials and temptations; her poems often deal with the themes of strength and adversity. She thought "it was not possible to live without religious faith". Moore lived in the St. Louis area until she was six. After her grandfather died in 1894, the three stayed with relatives near Pittsburgh for two years, then moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where her mother found employment teaching English in a private girls school.

Moore entered Bryn Mawr College in 1905. She was graduated four years later with an A.B., having majored in history, economics, and political science. The poet H.D. was among her classmates during their freshman year. At Bryn Mawr, Moore started writing short stories and poems for Tipyn O'Bob, the campus literary magazine, and decided to become a writer. After graduation, she worked briefly at Melvil Dewey's Lake Placid Club, then taught business subjects at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School from 1911 to 1914.

Poetic career
Moore's first professionally published poems appeared in The Egoist and Poetry in the spring of 1915. Harriet Monroe, the editor of the latter, would describe them in her biography as possessing "an elliptically musical profundity".

In 1916, Moore moved with her mother to Chatham, New Jersey, a community with commuting transportation to Manhattan. Two years later, the two moved to New York City's Greenwich Village, where Moore socialized with many avant-garde artists, especially those associated with Others magazine. The innovative poems she was writing at that time received high praise from Ezra Pound, William Carlos Williams, H.D., T. S. Eliot, and later, Wallace Stevens.

Moore's first book, Poems, was published without her permission in 1921 by the Imagist poet H.D. and H.D.'s partner, the British novelist Bryher. Moore's later poetry shows some influence from the Imagists' principles.

Her second book, Observations, won the Dial Award in 1924. She worked part-time as a librarian during these years; then from 1925 to 1929, she edited The Dial magazine, a literary and cultural journal. This position in the literary and arts community extended her influence as an arbiter of modernist taste; much later, she encouraged promising young poets, including Elizabeth Bishop, Allen Ginsberg, John Ashbery, and James Merrill. When The Dial ceased publication in 1929, she moved to 260 Cumberland Street in the Fort Greene neighborhood of Brooklyn, where she remained for thirty-six years. She continued to write while caring for her ailing mother, who died in 1947. For nine years before and after her mother's death, Moore translated the Fables of La Fontaine.

In 1933, Moore was awarded the Helen Haire Levinson Prize by Poetry magazine. In 1951, her Collected Poems won the National Book Award, the Pulitzer Prize, and the Bollingen Prize. In the book's introduction, T. S. Eliot wrote, "My conviction has remained unchanged for the last 14 years that Miss Moore's poems form part of the small body of durable poetry written in our time." After years of seclusion, she emerged as a celebrity, speaking at college campuses across the country and appearing in photographic essays in Life and Look magazines. Moore became a member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters in 1955. She was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1962 and in 1967 she was awarded The Edward MacDowell Medal by The MacDowell Colony for outstanding contributions to American culture. Moore continued to publish poems in various magazines, including, The Nation, The New Republic, Partisan Review, and The New Yorker, as well as publishing various books and collections of her poetry and criticism.

She moved to 35 West Ninth Street in Manhattan in 1965. After she moved back to Greenwich Village, she was widely recognized around town for her tricorn hat and black cape. She liked athletics and was a great admirer of Muhammad Ali, for whose spoken-word album I Am the Greatest! she wrote the liner notes. She became known as a baseball fan, first of the Brooklyn Dodgers and then of the New York Yankees. She threw out the ball to open the season at Yankee Stadium in 1968.

At the age of 81, Moore received the 1968 National Medal for Literature. The committee overseeing the award stated: "One of the few true inventors of poetry in our time, Marianne Moore, the first lady of poetry, gives us intimations of exquisite perfection."

Moore suffered a series of strokes in her last years. She died in 1972, and her ashes were interred with those of her mother at the family's burial plot at the Evergreen Cemetery in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. By the time of her death, she had received many honorary degrees and virtually every honor available to an American poet. The New York Times printed a full-page obituary. In 1996, she was inducted into the St. Louis Walk of Fame.

Moore corresponded with Ezra Pound from 1918 onward and visited him regularly during his incarceration at St. Elizabeth's. She opposed Benito Mussolini and Fascism from the start and objected to Pound's antisemitism. Moore was a Republican and supported Herbert Hoover in 1928 and 1932. She was a lifelong ally and friend of the American poet Wallace Stevens, as demonstrated in her review of Stevens's first collection, Harmonium, and, in particular, by her comment about the influence of Henri Rousseau on the poem "Floral Decorations for Bananas". She also corresponded, from 1943 to 1961, with the reclusive collage artist Joseph Cornell, whose methods of collecting and appropriation were much like her own.

In 1955, Moore was invited informally by David Wallace, manager of marketing research for Ford's "E-car" project, and his co-worker Bob Young, to suggest a name for the car. Wallace's rationale was "Who better to understand the nature of words than a poet?" In October 1955, Moore was approached to submit "inspirational names" for the E-car, and on November 7, she offered her list of names, which included such notables as "Resilient Bullet", "Ford Silver Sword", "Mongoose Civique", "Varsity Stroke", "Pastelogram", and "Andante con Moto". On December 8, she submitted her last and most famous name, "Utopian Turtletop". The E-car was christened by Ford as the Edsel.

Moore never married. Her living room has been preserved in its original layout in the collections of the Rosenbach Museum and Library in Philadelphia. Her entire library, knick-knacks (including a baseball signed by Mickey Mantle), all of her correspondence, photographs, and poetry drafts are available for public viewing.

Like Robert Lowell, Moore revised many of her early poems in later life. Most of these revised works appeared in the Complete Poems of 1967. Facsimile editions of the theretofore out-of-print 1924 Observations became available in 2002. Since that time, there has been no critical consensus about which versions are authoritative. As Moore wrote, as a one-line epigraph to Complete Poems, which offered her well-known work "Poetry" cut down from twenty-nine lines to three: "Omissions are not accidents." In a foreword to A Marianne Moore Reader in 1961, Moore said her favorite poem was the Book of Job.

Moore's novel and an unfinished memoir have not been published. In her will, she established a fund for the support of the Camperdown Elm in Brooklyn's Prospect Park, a rare and ancient tree that she had celebrated in a poem.

In 2012, she was inducted into the New York State Writers Hall of Fame.

Poetic style
Moore's most famous poem is perhaps "Poetry", in which she praises poets who create "imaginary gardens with real toads in them". It also asserts that meter and other traditional poetic devices are not as important as delight in language and precise, heartfelt expression. Moore's meter was radically separate from the English tradition; writing her syllabic poems after the advent of free verse, she was encouraged thereby to try previously unused meters.

She credited the poetry of Edith Sitwell as "intensifying her interest in rhythm and encouraging her rhythmic eccentricities". In response to a biographical sketch in 1935, Moore indicated "a liking for unaccented rhyme, the movement of the poem musically is more important than the conventional look of lines upon the page, and the stanza as the unit of composition rather than the line". Later in her Selected Poems of 1969, she also commented in regard to her poetic form, that "in anything I have written, there have been lines in which the chief interest is borrowed, and I have not yet been able to outgrow this hybrid method of composition".

Moore often composed her poetry in syllabics; she used stanzas with a predetermined number of syllables as her "unit of sense", with indentation underlining the parallels, the shape of the stanza indicating the syllabic disposition, and her reading voice conveying the syntactical line. These syllabic lines from "Poetry" illustrate her position: poetry is a matter of skill and honesty in any form whatsoever, while anything written poorly, although in perfect form, cannot be poetry:

Musical adaptations
Though not as widely set to music as the work of other poets, there have been musical adaptations by several American composers, including pieces by Samuel Adler (composer), William Bolcom, Juliana Hall, Lewis Spratlan, and Virgil Thomson.

Involvement in the American suffrage movement
Moore was involved in the American suffrage movement starting in her university years at Bryn Mawr, from 1905 to 1909. During this time in the American suffrage movement, Anna Howard Shaw had just taken over as president of the National American Woman Suffrage Association; Harriot Stanton Blatch formed the Equality League of Self Supporting Women, which started the practice of suffrage parades; and soon (in 1910) women in the state of Washington were granted the right to vote.

Moore's combined major in history, politics, and economics and the suffrage involvement of professors and other students at Bryn Mawr exposed her to the women's suffrage movement, especially because it was a "unique period in the history of women's college, as the values of progressivism, women's education, and the ideology of separate spheres came together in a kind of perfect storm that created a climate for cultural change". Moore was involved in a "suffrage society", a chapter of the National College Equal Suffrage League, and she was present at most of their events. Notably, Moore wrote in her personal letters to her family that she attended lectures at Bryn Mawr by the well-known feminist Jane Addams and the British suffragette Anne Cobden-Sanderson. Of the American suffragist Anna Howard Shaw, she wrote: "Miss Shaw spoke last night on the Modern Democratic ideal. I couldn't say how she delighted me. No decent, half-kind, creature could possibly think of fighting suffrage if he or it had heard her arguments."

Moore visited New York City in 1909 with another Bryn Mawr student, where she heard a lecture by the Colorado suffragist Judge Ben Lindsey, went to a suffrage mass meeting, and saw J. M. Barrie's classic suffragist-themed play What Every Woman Knows. There is speculation that Moore also participated in the women's suffrage parade of 1913 in Washington, D.C., one day before Woodrow Wilson's presidential inauguration. Although in her personal letters she told her brother, Warner, that she did not participate in the parade after he cautioned her about the possible dangers she would face from the opponents of the parade, "[h]er scrapbook includes programs and newspaper clippings about the march", and she later told the poet Elizabeth Bishop that she "paraded with the suffragettes, led by Inez Milholland on her white horse".

Moore was never as public about her involvement in the suffrage movement after that parade in 1913, because afterward she began participating anonymously, mostly through writing, using a pseudonym. During her stay in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, she admitted years later, she "wrote suffrage pieces for the Carlisle newspaper", which at the time appeared to be authored anonymously. Dr. Mary Chapman (University of British Columbia) argues that Moore was the writer of suffragist writings of the time in Carlisle news publications and that could be analyzed by examining her specific writing style alongside suffragist prose and poetry that were published in the Carlisle Evening Herald in 1915: "Many of the prosuffrage articles that appeared in the Herald exhibit Moore's characteristic reliance on quotation." Additionally, a letter appealing for the women's suffrage movement in the Carlisle Evening Sentinel is signed "Miss M.M.", which scholars believe could stand for Marianne Moore because "the absence of any other documented unmarried female suffragists in the Carlisle area with the initials M.M. make it likely that the Sentinel reader who coyly constructs a letter to the editor almost entirely from quotation is Marianne Moore". Moore's poem "Silence" (1924) also resembles the writing style that was seen in the Sentinel letter. Moore established herself on the surface as a modernist poet, and the common practice within the modernist circle of poets was to not engage with the politics of the time; but her writings displayed a "sophisticated political subtext".

Selected works

 * Poems, 1921 (Published in London by H.D. and Bryher. Moore disapproved of the timing, editing, selections, and format of this collection. See The Selected Letters of Marianne Moore, ed. Bonnie Costello et al. (New York: Knopf, 1997), p. 164. In a letter to Bryher, Moore notes, "I wouldn't have the poems appear now if I could help it and would not have some of them ever appear and would make certain changes.")
 * Observations, 1924
 * Selected Poems, 1935 (introduction by T. S. Eliot)
 * The Pangolin and Other Verse, 1936
 * What Are Years, 1941
 * Nevertheless, 1944
 * A Face, 1949
 * Collected Poems, 1951
 * Fables of La Fontaine, 1954 (verse translations of La Fontaine's fables)
 * Predilections: Literary Essays, 1955
 * Like a Bulwark, 1956
 * Idiosyncrasy and Technique, 1958
 * O to Be a Dragon, 1959
 * The Marianne Moore Reader, 1961
 * Eight Poems, 1962, with illustrations by Robert Andrew Parker
 * The Absentee: A Comedy in Four Acts, 1962 (dramatization of Maria Edgeworth's novel)
 * Puss in Boots, The Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, 1963 (adaptations from Perrault)
 * Dress and Kindred Subjects, 1965
 * Poetry and Criticism, 1965
 * Tell Me, Tell Me: Granite, Steel and Other Topics, 1966
 * The Complete Poems of Marianne Moore, 1967
 * The Accented Syllable, 1969
 * Selected Poems, 1969 (selected by Marianne Moore, published by Faber & Faber, London )
 * Homage to Henry James, 1971 (essays by Moore, Edmund Wilson, et al.)
 * The Complete Poems, 1982
 * The Complete Prose, 1986, edited by Patricia C. Willis
 * Complete Poems, 1994
 * The Selected Letters of Marianne Moore, edited by Bonnie Costello, Celeste Goodridge, and Cristanne Miller, 1997
 * Becoming Marianne Moore: The Early Poems, 1907–1924, edited by Robin G. Schulze, 2002. ISBN 978-0520221390.
 * Poems of Marianne Moore, edited by Grace Schulman, 2003

Archives

 * Marianne Moore collection at The Rosenbach
 * Marianne Moore papers at the University of Maryland Libraries
 * Glenway Wescott and Monroe Wheeler Collection of Marianne Moore at Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University Library
 * Robert A. Wilson - Marianne Moore collection held by Special Collections, University of Delaware

Audio recordings

 * Marianne Moore reading her poem "Bird-Witted"
 * Yale College Lecture on Marianne Moore audio, video and full transcripts from Open Yale Courses

Other links

 * http://poets.org website: biography, 6 poems, prose, and criticism.
 * St. Louis Walk of Fame
 * Modern American Poetry: Marianne Moore
 * Modern American Poetry: Marianne Moore

title: Marianne Moore


text:
Lost in Space (Aimee Mann album)

Lost in Space is the fourth album by singer-songwriter Aimee Mann, released in 2002 on her own label, SuperEgo Records. A special edition released in 2003 featured a second disc containing six live recordings, two B-sides and two previously unreleased songs.

Mann performed the songs "This Is How It Goes" and "Pavlov's Bell" during a guest appearance on the television show Buffy the Vampire Slayer, in the season seven episode "Sleeper". "Today's the Day" is featured in the 2002 film Enough. The cover and accompanying mini-comic were drawn by Canadian cartoonist Seth.

Reception
Lost in Space holds a score of 74 out of 100 from Metacritic, indicating "generally favorable reviews". E! Online gave the album a B+ and stated, "Mann's cranky muse is consistently compelling, showcasing both her wry lyrics and terrific melodies." Uncut gave the album four stars out of five and called it "textured and complex". Blender also gave it four stars out of five and said the album "pushes [Mann] in a new direction." Q likewise gave it four stars and said that Mann has "returned to writing songs which are wry, funny, adult and perceptive, all wrapped up in handsome melodies." Billboard gave it a positive review and called it "sonically rich" and "home to some of Mann's most intimate storytelling." Neumu.net gave it seven stars out of ten and called it "a rare record that simply responds to the quiet masses who maybe feel just a bit too much too often, and offers them a soothing, downbeat source of comfort without preaching or apology." Mojo gave it a positive review and stated: "Michael Lockwood's production occasionally affects a sound akin to a Vonda Sheppard reared on black dreams and Russian literature."

Other reviews are very average or mixed: Trouser Press gave it an average review and said of Mann, "The songs are not as strong overall as on her previous albums, and the tempo neither flags nor picks up over the course of the album." In his The Village Voice Consumer Guide, Robert Christgau gave it a C+ and said of Mann, "For her fans, the news is that she's invested her profits in studio musicians. Takes talent to make that more boring than solo acoustic, no?" Rolling Stone gave it two stars out of five and said, "The tempos and melodies drag throughout; it's as though we've heard Mann sing these songs before, only here her understated passion comes off more like overstated indifference."

Track listing
All songs written by Aimee Mann, unless otherwise noted.

 * 1) "Humpty Dumpty" – 4:01
 * 2) "High on Sunday 51" (Paul Dalen, Mann) – 3:15
 * 3) "Lost in Space" – 3:28
 * 4) "This Is How It Goes" – 3:47
 * 5) "Guys Like Me" – 3:12
 * 6) "Pavlov's Bell" – 4:27
 * 7) "Real Bad News" – 3:53
 * 8) "Invisible Ink" (Mann, Clayton Scoble) – 4:59
 * 9) "Today's the Day" – 4:42
 * 10) "The Moth" – 3:46
 * 11) "It's Not" – 3:27

Personnel

 * Aimee Mann – vocals (1–11), acoustic guitar (1,2,4,5,6,8–11), piano (1,5,9), tambourine (1,3–6,9,10), JX3-P (1), bass (1–5,7–11), paddles (2,10), percussion (2), drum fills (2), backing vocals (2), 12-string acoustic guitar (4,9), electric guitar (5), egg shaker (6), SK-1 (7), handclaps (8), drums (10,11)
 * Jay Bellerose – drums (7)
 * Jebin Bruni – Chamberlin strings (2), piano (2), Prophet 5 (4)
 * Denyse Buffum – viola (8,11)
 * Darius Campo – violin (8,11)
 * Susan Chatman – violin (8,11)
 * Larry Corbett – cello (8,11)
 * Mike Denneen – harpsichord (3), electric piano (3), Wurlitzer (3)
 * Joel Derouin – violin (8,11)
 * Jason Falkner – bass (6)
 * Ryan Freeland – AM radio loop (7), handclaps (8)
 * Armen Garabedian – violin (8,11)
 * Berj Garabedian – violin (8,11)
 * Buddy Judge – backing vocals (1–4)
 * Suzie Katayama – conductor (8,11)
 * Peter Kent – violin (8,11)
 * Natalie Leggett – violin (8,11)
 * Mario de León – violin (8,11)
 * Michael Lockwood – JX3-P (1), Leslie organ (1), slide guitar (1,4,8), electric guitar (1–11), Chamberlin (1,3,6,9,10), autoharp (2), soprano zither (2), Dobro (2), SK-1 (2–4,9–11), baritone guitar (2), B-Bender guitar (3), VL-1 (4), VL-5 (4), 12-string guitar (4), ARP Solina (5), MT-520 (5), Prophet 600 (5,9), harmonium (5), Sonora shakers (5,9), SK-5 (6,7,9–11), MT-65 (6), RS-09 (7), MT-52 (7), CZ-1000 (7), Static (7), Theremin (7), Hohner bass 3 (7), space loop (7), handclaps (8), fun machine (8), Nashville guitar (9), paddles (9), celeste (9), loops (9), 12-string guitar (9), MT-65 E-Bow (9), Mini-Moog (9,10), MT-45 (10), acoustic guitar (10), Omnichord (10), Marxophone (10), SA-9 (11), CS-5 (11)
 * Seth McClain – handclaps (8)
 * Joe Meyer – French horn (11)
 * Carole Mukogawa – viola (8,11)
 * Dave Palmer – organ (7)
 * Michael Penn – drum loop (2)
 * Jonathan Quarmby – horn arrangement (11), string arrangement (8,11)
 * Mike Randle – backing vocals (3)
 * Michele Richards – violin (8,11)
 * Steve Richards – cello (8,11)
 * Jeff Rothschild (8)
 * Rusty Squeezebox – backing vocals (3)
 * Darian Sahanaja – backing vocals (1)
 * John Sands – drums (1,3–6,8,9), Sonora shakers (1)
 * Daniel Smith – cello (8,11)
 * David Stone – double bass (8,11)
 * Patrick Warren – Chamberlin strings (4), Chamberlin horns (4), Chamberlin (5,6), Marxophone (5)
 * John Wittenberg – violin (8,11)

Sales
By June 2008, the album had sold 232,000 units in the United States according to Nielsen SoundScan.

title: Lost in Space (Aimee Mann album)


text:
Vicar

A vicar (Latin: vicarius) is a representative, deputy or substitute; anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior (compare "vicarious" in the sense of "at second hand"). Linguistically, vicar is cognate with the English prefix "vice", similarly meaning "deputy". It also refers to a senior priest in the Church of England. The title appears in a number of Christian ecclesiastical contexts, but also as an administrative title, or title modifier, in the Roman Empire. In addition, in the Holy Roman Empire, a local representative of the emperor, such as an archduke, could be styled "vicar".

Catholic Church
The Pope bears the title vicar of Christ (Latin: Vicarius Christi).

In Catholic canon law, a vicar is the representative of any ecclesiastic entity. The Romans had used the term to describe officials subordinate to the praetorian prefects. In the early Christian churches, bishops likewise had their vicars, such as the archdeacons and archpriests, and also the rural priest, the curate who had the cure or care of all the souls outside the episcopal cities. The position of the Roman Catholic vicar as it evolved is sketched in the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908).

Vicars have various titles based on what role they are performing. An apostolic vicar is a bishop or priest who heads a missionary particular Church that is not yet ready to be a full diocese – he stands as the local representative of the Pope, in the Pope's role as bishop of all unorganized territories. A vicar capitular, who exercises authority in the place of the diocesan chapter, is a temporary ordinary of a diocese during a sede vacante period.

Vicars exercise authority as the agents of the bishop of the diocese. Most vicars, however, have ordinary power, which means that their agency is not by virtue of a delegation but is established by law. Vicars general, episcopal vicars, and judicial vicars exercise vicarious ordinary power; they each exercise a portion of the power of the diocesan bishop (judicial for the judicial vicar, executive for the others) by virtue of their office and not by virtue of a mandate.

A vicar forane, also known as an archpriest or dean, is a priest entrusted by the bishop with a certain degree of leadership in a territorial division of a diocese or a pastoral region known as a vicarate forane or a deanery.

A parochial vicar is a priest assigned to a parish in addition to, and in collaboration with, the parish priest or rector. He exercises his ministry as an agent of the parish's pastor, who is termed parochus in Latin. Some papal legates are given the title Vicar of the Apostolic See.

A vicar can be the priest of a "chapel of ease", a building within the parish which is not the parish church. Non-resident canons led also to the institution of vicars choral, each canon having his own vicar, who sat in his stall in his absence (see Cathedral).

In Opus Dei, a regional vicar is a priest designated to fulfil responsibilities for an entire country or region, such as France or the United States.

Eastern Orthodox Church
In the Russian Orthodox Church and some other non-Hellenic Eastern Orthodox churches that historically follow Russian tradition, vicar (Russian: vikariy / викарий) is a term for what is known as suffragan bishop in the Anglican Communion or as auxiliary bishop in the Latin Church of the Catholic Church. A vicar bishop usually bears in his title the names of both his titular see (usually, a smaller town within the diocese he ministers in) and the see he is subordinate to. For example, Ignaty Punin, the vicar bishop under the Diocese of Smolensk, is titled "The Right Reverend Ignaty, the bishop of Vyazma, the vicar of the Diocese of Smolensk", Vyasma being a smaller town inside the territory of the Diocese of Smolensk. Normally, only large dioceses have vicar bishops, sometimes more than one. Usually, Russian Orthodox vicar bishops have no independent jurisdiction (even in their titular towns) and are subordinate to their diocesan bishops; though some of them de facto may have jurisdiction over some territories, especially when there is a need to avoid an overlapping jurisdiction.

In some other Eastern Orthodox churches the term "chorbishop" is used instead of "vicar bishop".

Anglicanism
In Anglicanism, a vicar is a type of parish priest. Historically, parish priests in the Church of England were divided into vicars, rectors, and perpetual curates. The parish clergy and church were supported by tithes—like a local tax (traditionally, as the etymology of tithe suggests, of ten percent) levied on the personal as well as agricultural output of the parish. Roughly speaking, the distinction was that a rector directly received both the greater and lesser tithes of his parish while a vicar received only the lesser tithes (the greater tithes going to the lay holder, or impropriator, of the living); a perpetual curate with a small cure and often aged or infirm received neither greater nor lesser tithes, and received only a small salary (paid sometimes by the diocese). (See also in Church of England.) Today, the roles of a rector and a vicar are essentially the same. Which of the two titles is held by the parish priest is historical. Some parishes have a rector, others a vicar.

In the Episcopal Church in the United States of America, the positions of "vicar" and "curate" are not recognized in the canons of the entire church. However, some diocesan canons do define "vicar" as the priest in charge of a mission; and "curate" is often used for assistants, being entirely analogous to the English situation.

Vicarage
A vicarage, or vicarage house, is a residence provided by the church for the priest. They were usually located near the church and were sometimes quite elaborate and other times inadequate. Dating from medieval times, they were often rebuilt and modernized. In the second half of the 20th century, most large vicarages were replaced with more modern and simpler houses.

Lutheran usage
In the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod, the Lutheran Church–Canada, and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, a vicar is a candidate for ordained pastoral ministry, serving in a vicariate or internship, usually in the third year of seminary training, though it can be delayed to the fourth year (this is often referred to as "a vicarage", a homonym of the residence of the Vicar). Typically at the end of the year of vicarage, the candidate returns to seminary and completes a final year of studies. After being issued a call or assignment, the candidate is ordained as a pastor in the ministry of Word and Sacrament. The role of a vicar in the Lutheran tradition is most comparable to that of a transitional deacon in the Anglican and Roman churches, except that Lutheran vicars are not ordained. In the Evangelical Lutheran Church in South Africa, a vicar is a person who has completed seminary training and is awaiting ordination while serving at a parish where the Diocesan Council places him or her.

The title Vikar, used in the Lutheran churches in Germany, is comparable while the Lutheran Church of Sweden calls it kyrkoherde ("church shepherd"), although that title is more comparable to a rector.

In fiction
Oliver Goldsmith's novel The Vicar of Wakefield (1766) and Honoré de Balzac's The Curate of Tours (Le Curé de Tours; 1832) evoke the impoverished world of the 18th- and 19th-century vicar. Anthony Trollope's Chronicles of Barsetshire are peopled with churchmen of varying situations, from wealthy to impoverished; the income differences prompted a digression in Framley Parsonage (chapter 14) on the incomprehensible logic that made one vicar rich and another poor. The 18th-century satirical ballad "The Vicar of Bray" reveals the changes of conscience a vicar (whether of the Bray in Berkshire or of that in County Wicklow) might undergo in order to retain his meagre post, between the 1680s and 1720s. "The Curate of Ars" (usually in French: Le Curé d'Ars) is a style often used to refer to Saint Jean Vianney, a French parish priest canonized on account of his piety and simplicity of life.

title: Vicar


text:
Ronald McNair

Ronald Erwin McNair (October 21, 1950 – January 28, 1986) was an American NASA astronaut and physicist. He died at the age of 35 during the launch of the Space Shuttle Challenger on mission STS-51-L, in which he was serving as one of three mission specialists in a crew of seven.

Prior to the Challenger disaster, McNair flew as a mission specialist on STS-41-B aboard Challenger from February 3 to 11, 1984, becoming the second African American in space.

Background
Ronald Erwin McNair was born in Lake City, South Carolina, October 21, 1950, to Carl C. McNair, an auto repairman, and his wife, a high school teacher named Pearl. Growing up alongside his older brother, Carl S., as well as his younger brother, Eric, McNair grew up in a low-income household, his home having lacked both electricity and running water. The family later moved into a better, though still poor-quality household following the death of McNair's grandfather. His older brother, writing in a posthumous biography about McNair, described how the family "covered the floor and furniture with pots and pans to catch the water dripping through the roof" when it rained. In the summer of 1959, McNair refused to leave the segregated Lake City Public Library without being allowed to check out his books. After the police and his mother were called, McNair was allowed to borrow books from the library; the building that housed the library at the time is now named after him. A children's book, Ron's Big Mission, offers a fictionalized account of this event.

McNair graduated as valedictorian of Carver High School in 1967.

In 1971, McNair received a Bachelor of Science degree in engineering physics, magna cum laude, from the North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University in Greensboro, North Carolina. At North Carolina A&T, he studied under professor Donald Edwards, who had established the physics curriculum at the university.

In 1976, McNair received a PhD degree in physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology under the guidance of Michael Feld, becoming nationally recognized for his work in the field of laser physics. That same year, McNair won the AAU Karate gold medal. He would subsequently win five regional championships and earn a fifth-degree black belt in karate.

McNair received four honorary doctorates, as well as a score of fellowships and commendations. He became a staff physicist at the Hughes Research Lab in Malibu, California. McNair was also a member of the Omega Psi Phi Fraternity.

Astronaut career
In 1978, McNair was selected as one of 35 applicants from a pool of 10,000 for the NASA astronaut program. He was one of several astronauts recruited by Nichelle Nichols as part of a NASA effort to increase the number of minority and female astronauts. McNair flew as a mission specialist on STS-41-B aboard Challenger from February 3 to 11, 1984, becoming the second African American to fly in space.

Challenger disaster

Following the STS-41-B mission, McNair was selected for STS-51-L as one of three mission specialists in a crew of seven. The mission launched on January 28, 1986. He and the other six crew members were killed when Challenger disintegrated nine miles above the Atlantic Ocean, 73 seconds after liftoff.

McNair was initially buried at Rest Lawn Memorial Park in Lake City, South Carolina. His remains were disinterred in 2004 and moved to Ronald E. McNair Memorial Park, located elsewhere in Lake City.

Music in space
McNair was an accomplished saxophonist and jazz enthusiast.

Before his last fateful space mission, McNair worked with French composer and performer Jean-Michel Jarre on a piece of music for Jarre's then-upcoming album Rendez-Vous. It was intended that McNair would record his saxophone solo on board the Challenger, which would have made McNair's solo the first original piece of music to have been recorded in space (although the song "Jingle Bells" had been played on a harmonica during an earlier Gemini 6 spaceflight). However, the recording was never made, as the flight ended in the disaster and the deaths of its entire crew. The final track on Rendez-Vous, "Last Rendez-Vous," has the subtitle "Ron's Piece," and the liner notes include a dedication from Jarre: "Ron was so excited about the piece that he rehearsed it continuously until the last moment. May the memory of my friend the astronaut and the artist Ron McNair live on through this piece." McNair was supposed to have taken part in Jarre's Rendez-vous Houston concert through a live feed from the orbiting Shuttlecraft.

Public honors

McNair was posthumously awarded the Congressional Space Medal of Honor in 2004, along with all crew members lost in the Challenger and Columbia disasters.

A variety of public places, people and programs have been renamed in honor of McNair:
 * The crater McNair on the Moon is named in his honor.
 * The McNair Building (a.k.a. Building 37) at MIT, his alma mater, houses the Kavli Institute for Astrophysics and Space Research.
 * The McNair Science Center at Francis Marion University in Florence, South Carolina
 * The McNair Center for Aerospace Innovation and Research at the University of South Carolina is named in his honor.
 * The McNair Park & Recreation Center in Pompano Beach, Florida is named in his honor.
 * Ronald McNair Boulevard in Lake City, South Carolina is named in his honor and lies near other streets named for astronauts who perished in the Challenger crash.
 * The Quailbrook East development in Somerset, New Jersey has streets named after the Challenger and each of the seven astronauts.
 * The U.S. Department of Education offers the TRIO Ronald E. McNair Post-Baccalaureate Achievement Program for students with low-income, first-generation students, and/or underrepresented students in graduate education for doctorate education.
 * On January 29, 2011, the Lake City, South Carolina library was dedicated as the Ronald McNair Life History Center. When Ronald McNair was nine, the police and his mother were called because he wished to check out books from this library, which served only white patrons before he arrived. He said, "I'll wait," to the lady and sat on the counter until the police and his mother arrived, and the officer said, "Why don't you just give him the books?" which the lady behind the counter reluctantly did. He said, "Thank you, ma'am," as he got the books. The episode, as recalled by his brother Carl McNair, has been depicted in a short animated film.

 * Numerous K–12 schools have also been named after McNair.
 * McNair Elementary School in Compton, California
 * Los Robles Ronald McNair Academy in East Palo Alto, California
 * Ronald McNair Elementary School in Germantown, Maryland
 * Ronald E. McNair Elementary School in Hazelwood, Missouri
 * PS 5, Dr. Ronald McNair School in Brooklyn, New York City, New York
 * PS/MS 147 Ronald McNair in Cambria Heights Queens, New York City, New York
 * Ronald McNair Elementary School in Greensboro, North Carolina
 * Ronald E. McNair Elementary School in Dallas, Texas (Dallas ISD)
 * Ronald Ervin McNair Elementary School in Denton, Texas (Denton ISD)
 * Ronald McNair Middle School in Rockledge, Florida
 * Ronald McNair Middle School in DeKalb County, Georgia, near Decatur
 * Ronald McNair Middle School in College Park, Georgia
 * Ronald McNair Middle School, formerly the Andrew Jackson Intermediate School, in Detroit, Michigan
 * Ronald E. McNair Middle School in Lake City, South Carolina, was renamed from Carver High School in his honor (he was a high school graduate of the facility).
 * Ronald E. McNair Middle School, San Antonio, Texas – Southwest ISD
 * Ronald E. McNair Junior High School in Huntsville, Alabama
 * Dr. Ronald McNair Junior High School in Pearland, Texas (Alvin Independent School District), is named in honor Dr. McNair.
 * Ronald E. McNair High School in Stockton, California
 * Dr. Ronald E. McNair High School in DeKalb County, Georgia, near Decatur
 * Dr. Ronald E. McNair Academic High School in Jersey City, New Jersey
 * Ronald E. McNair Academic Center in Chicago, Illinois
 * Ronald E. McNair Building: Lycée Français de la Nouvelle-Orléans, New Orleans, Louisiana
 * Ronald E. McNair Building: KIPP Believe College Prep, New Orleans, Louisiana
 * Ronald E. McNair Administrative Center in University City, Missouri

 * Ronald E. McNair Prince Hall Masonic Lodge No. 146 is named in his honor in Suitland, Maryland
 * A building on the Willowridge High School campus in Houston, Texas, is named in honor of McNair.
 * McNair Memorial Park in El Lago, Texas, is named in his honor.
 * In his honor, there is a memorial in Ronald McNair Park in Brooklyn, New York.
 * The Dr. Ronald E. McNair Playground in East Harlem, Manhattan, New York City, New York, is named after him.
 * The Ronald E. McNair Space Theater inside the Davis Planetarium in downtown Jackson, Mississippi, is named in his honor.
 * The McNair Open Access Computer Lab at California State University, Bakersfield
 * The Naval ROTC building on the campus of Southern University and A&M College in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, is named in his honor.McNair Hall View 2012f.jpg in Greensboro, North Carolina ]]
 * The Engineering building at North Carolina A&T State University in Greensboro, North Carolina, is named in his honor. The university holds a McNair Day celebration annually.
 * McNair was portrayed by Joe Morton in the 1990 TV movie Challenger.
 * The song "A Drop Of Water", recorded by Japanese jazz artist Keiko Matsui, with vocals by the late Carl Anderson, was written in tribute to McNair.
 * The Jean Michel Jarre track "Last Rendez-Vous" was re-titled "Ron's Piece" in his honor. McNair was originally due to record the track in space aboard Challenger, and then perform it via a live link up in Jarre's Rendez-vous Houston concert.
 * The federally-funded McNair Scholars/Achievement Programs award research money and internships to juniors and seniors who are first-generation and low-income, or members of underrepresented groups, in preparation for graduate study. 187 institutions participate (as of 2020). Michigan State University, Washington State University, and Syracuse University are three examples of these programs and both offer Summer Research Opportunity Program as additional program components.

Personal life
McNair was married to Cheryl McNair, and they had two children. Cheryl is a founding director of the Challenger Center, which focuses on space science education.

title: Ronald McNair


text:
Talk:Rector (academia)

Vicar
This comment used to be in the text of this entry:

 * huh? Is anyone else sure about this? I thought a 'Rector' was a religious minister in one of the churches... is it both?

There is a historical distinction between vicar and rector that has to do with collecting tithes. The new article on vicar discusses it, and I have harmonised this article with it. ---Ihcoyc

Peter Ustinov wasn't the Rector at Durham, he was the chancellor. He was previously Rector at Dundee, though.

--Amortize 12:55, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the Anglican church, a rector is one type of parish priest, sometimes referred to as a parson.
 * Is "parson" used in England any more? It is never used in the Episcopal Church in the USA. Except in the song "Winter Wonderland", the word is seldom used here at all.Rockhopper10r 19:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * rarely in the UK, though it is still extand. I have removed the reference to parson because it appears to mean that a rector is referred to as a parson (which is wrong). Someone with better literary ability than me can perhaps reword it. Francis Davey 11:52, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

University of Dundee
Just to add, Dundee University is a spin-off from St Andrews and is not even 50 years old. It is NOT an ancient university!

- I'm sorry but the age of a universitys charter does not affect its classification as an ancient, Students have been studying at dundee since 1881. because of this and its longstanding roots as part of standrews. It is therefore classed as an ancient

Look at article on ancient university where it is defined as pre-C19. Out of interest, in England, a university founded in 1881 University would be called a Red Brick university. I have modifed the article accordingly. - Op. Deo 09:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, that is correct, but nonetheless the status of Dundee as the 'child' of St Andrews makes it technically an Ancient. I hope the wording I've settled upon at this juncture should satisfy all parties. Lordrosemount 01:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Scots language, North Germanic language cognates
User:Op. Deo removed the following contribution on 18 Sept 05:

"Rector is the Scots language cognate of the Nordic language rektor."

He did not explain why.

He also, I can only assume by accident, removed the perfectly valid interwiki link Rektor and categories. Could I request that when Users wish to delete part of a contribution, that they do not use revert, but rather manually remove the relevant bit. Otherwise they waste other people's valuable time adding back in the valid bits.--Mais oui! 18:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * What was the point in saying that it's a cognate of the scandinavian term? What did that add to the article? Doops | talk 18:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, it was an accident from carelessly using a small window and not noticing the additional categories etc. Doops has expressed my feeling about the bit I had intended to delete. Having looked at several dictionaries (albeit not a Scandanavian one) I had concluded that the orgin of the word rector from Latin in C15, e.g. SOED, and its use in England was most probable origin from which it was transfered to the Scots language - Op. Deo 18:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Of course "rector" in English, Scots, Scandinavian, and other languages originally comes from Latin; so in that sense of the word they're all cognates. But that's a pretty pointless use of the word "cognate" which is more useful for words linked in more ancient and less obvious ways. Doops | talk 19:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The point about the Nordic cognate is that it means exactly the same thing re. schools and universities, which I strongly suspect comes from cross-North Sea contacts, rather than from the Latin root word, which means something slightly different. Similar idea to Scots language Kirk (church) and Swedish language Kyrka (church), which both come from Greek language, yet clearly have some other common, shared, regional history separate from the Greek root. Never mind. Probably too much like Original Research to be applicable to Wikipedia.--Mais oui! 20:25, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * All the universities in question would have had their original charters, academic statutes, etc. written in Latin; the article already points out that some countries' universities had rectors and others had chancellors, etc. (And as for "kirk", it's cognate not only with Scandinavian versions but with English "church" and German kirche too.) Doops | talk 20:37, 18 September 2005 (UTC) PS -- oops; it didn't make that point very clearly after all; so I've updated it to do so. Doops |  talk 20:45, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Usage in ECUSA
Although there is some variation, generally speaking in the Episcopal Church in the USA, a rector is a priest in charge of a parish and a vicar is in charge of a mission. Usage varies a bit, but not so much that it would be appropriate to say a rector is "sometimes" in charge of a parish. "Usually" is more appropriate. Rockhopper10r 20:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The canons do in fact define the terms (and don't mention vicars). I've updated the section accordingly. Mangoe (talk) 21:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The Greeks
Prytanis is not obviously cognate to "rector", so I don't know what the Greek claim is doing in there. Mangoe (talk) 13:28, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

List of nations
Is it really necessary to list here all the nations of Europe where "rector" is a recognized term for an academic administrator? It interrupts the narrative and may be more appropriately listed as a footnote.Parkwells (talk) 18:52, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Rector in Argentina
The reference to head of schools (Facultades) being rectors is wrong. The head of a school is called Decano (Dean), while Rector applies only to the head of the whole university — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.195.95.182 (talk) 01:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge?
Shouldn't this be merged with Chancellor (education)? It's the same function largely, just a different name. This article even admits this. Malick78 (talk) 16:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support a merge. Doremo (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

 * In principle I agree. Would be interesting how to name the new article though. The rector is addressed as rector even in English, so chancellor would not be a verbatim translation. So do we take the minority global name because it is common in the Anglophone world and this is English Wikipedia, or do we take the term (rector) used in more countries as well as used in English to identify these dignitaries from outside the English cultural influence; to present a less biased global view on the topic. Also note that in some countries e.g. Germany the Kanzler and the Rector are different positions in the board of a university. Arnoutf (talk) 19:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Can't think the rector of my secondary school would have approved. Looks like an awkward and poor merge. . dave souza, talk 22:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

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Is the frequent use of the word "mal" in this article an error?Jonathanlynn (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rector (academia)