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Talk:Indecent exposure

Indecent exposure versus sexual assault
I think legally, indecent exposure is considered separate crime than sexual assault. Do you have a legal reference that supports your characterization? Chadloder 01:15 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)

I was using the term metaphorically, to show how it was regarded by the public, rather than in law. Please feel free to correct the article to make this clearer. The Anome
 * There is no evidence offered to support this "metaphor;" I don't think it makes sense,  to say the least. KenThomas (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom indecent exposure as a precursor to more serious offences
Does committing an indecent exposure offence lead to more serious offences? This is a complex issue. The sources cited do not establish causality, or even a correlation. If there is a correlation then it may be that it is due to the psychology of the offender, common cause. Similarly, that one offence precedes another does not mean that the former causes the latter. Indeed it could be the opposite, that the second happened despite the first. This aspect of offending behaviour does need to be addressed, but it must be done properly. Great care to evaluate the claims of pressure groups is essential. I have deleted the statement of causality. MalcolmBoura (talk) 22:15, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Public masturbation in France
Public masturbation is common in France? Do you have any data or source to back that up? -- Kimiko 09:44 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

I removed this... Interestingly, in France, masturbation in public, on the train for example, is not rare, and is rarely prosecuted.

I see not how it is interesting I would like to see sources for this, in particular compared to similar assertions in other countries It sounds like unnecessary attack on a country moral rules.User:anthere

 * I would also like to see some sources. While the assertion may not be without some basis in fact,  for instance,  Prague,  amid negative population growth in the mid-90s, had an advertizing campaign on the Metro which said "be a little less careful,"  implicitly encouraging couples to come to the Metro to have sex at a time when private housing was rare-- such a bare assertion about "France" is far too overgeneral.  KenThomas (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The fact that these laws exist is.. sickening. 219.79.115.72 16:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Talk pages are not the place for general discussion of the topic. KenThomas (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Puritanism
I removed this:

 * In other countries, common sense prevails, and puritan laws give way to human nature. This line of distinction follows not simply along class lines, but rather by the synergy between cultural sensitivities, and natural behaviour.

The first sentence is not NPOV, and the second does not appear to mean anything at all. - Montréalais

Exhibitionists pleasure
"About 20% of exhibitionists derive a sadistic pleasure out of shocking people, and those are the ones who are at risk of committing more serious crimes and being a danger to others."

Where did this come from? because it sounds like it was made up, honestly. It also sounds stupid to use the word "sadistic"....--Deglr6328 07:22, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Source citation needed
"Many people believe that those who expose themselves are harmless, but that is not necessarily the case. About 20% of exhibitionists derive a sadistic pleasure out of shocking people, and those are the ones who are at risk of committing more serious crimes and being a danger to others. Randy Woodfield, the I-5 Killer, had a history of exposing himself to others."

-Cite source of statistic, please. -The characteristics of personality, though in totality make the person, may have no function betwixt; Corrilation does not equate to causation. -Proof of correlation is done hapax legomenon.

 * I removed this. Surely that number is invented. Equalpants 04:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Following Edits of User:203.28.231.34 moved here
I'm moving this part here which is the POV of the user.--Calm 13:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

This concept is a bizarre element of society. The idea that simply seeing the parts of the human body (that everyone has) is indecent instils in people a feeling that their body is something to be ashamed of. If the act is sexual harrassing to another this is a different matter. Nudity, however, should in no situation be considered indecent. Clothing is to keep us warm - not to cover up certain parts of the body. No other animal in the world has these useless societal rules to make people feel ashamed of themselves. We need to get over our own garbage. We make taboos out of scientific realities. We need to GROW UP. If nudity was indecent we would be BORN FULLY DRESSED. User:203.28.231.34

User 203.28.231.34 : Sorry. When I made this comment I was new to this site and thought it was a forum of people's views. Please excuse my ignorance. I now know not to make NPOV violations.

Stupid laws/ It's human nature
Notice how in Western culture since 1900 up until today there is a trend to wear less and less clothing. Weren't humans born naked? I'm not saying lets all go naked but at least desert this old constriction. Think that in modern society there is already sexual tension leading to rape and other means which can harm one another.

 * Talk pages are not for general discussion of topic. Such references may be removed.  KenThomas (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Personally, I'd like to know what's indecent about being naked. I would think these gymnophobic laws are the REAL indecency.50.130.10.152 (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Unnecessary Nudity
There is absolutely no reason that this page needs to have a nude picture depicting indecent exposure. I'm sure that a description or diagram would be quite fine. I'm pretty sure wikipedia has some sort of rule against nudity on its pages.
 * No, in fact it doesn't. Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors (or anyone else). Yeltensic42.618 18:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * There is a large difference between censorship for minors and posting nudity on a website where most people to not expect to come across it. Someone surfing a porn site has made a conscious decision about what he or she is doing. Someone surfing wikipedia or doing research likely has no idea that he or she will come across such a thing.

See nudity, breast, and sexual intercourse. Wikipedia obviously isn't a porn site, but it also isn't Censorpedia (I didn't make up that name). If the topic has to do with nudity, then it's reasonable to expect nudity. Yeltensic42.618 15:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to make it clearer, there's no rule against nudity on Wikipedia. Yeltensic42.618 23:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Given that, I'm now adding it back. Yeltensic42.618 16:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The picture has been taken away again, to my dismay and I'm sure to the dismay of quite a few other people. I'm about to revert the page back to the most recent edit that has the picture in it. The revert done most recently says the girl depicted is underage, but where does this user get his/her eyes from-- the female depicted is absolutely not "clearly underage." (It's impossible to tell most people's ages anyway, once they age past a certain point.) The idea that we shouldn't have a picture of a girl flashing her boobs in an article that is essentially more about flashing than it is about indecent exposure is ridiculous. The article is titled indecent exposure but it obviously goes into more depth than just the stereotypical trench-coat guy displaying his penis in a darkened movie theatre. Would the person taking the picture away prefer that we balance out the picture in the article with another picture of a trench coat guy showing his erect penis to the camera? As a heterosexual guy, I'm against that, but if it's a POV issue, I'm sure the rest of us could make accomodations to these Puritans that keep removing the boob shot. Kiko 06:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Tell you what. I'll go find a picture of a 450 lb fatty flashing, we'll use that instead.  It shows the point, insisting on the picture just proves it isn't about displaying the image to get the point, it's about eye candy. -- Jbamb 14:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * But there's no point in doing that, the picture we have works well enough. What you're saying sounds like going out of our way to use a picture of a "fatty" just to please Puritan POV pushers. I think if we're going to change anything, it makes more sense to add a guy flasher but keep the current picture, so that both genders are represented (similar to what they did at the masturbation article). Yeltensic42.618 21:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, actually that sounds like a reasonable POV resolution. I'm not sure exactly where to find a guy flasher, though-- maybe a gay softcore site? Should we have the flashing guy be having an erection or not? (These are serious questions, not intended to be answered by pervs, though I'm expecting that given the language I'm using in this suggestion, it will be targeted by just that demographic..) Kiko 23:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * So that means while on a article on paedophile, you are going to put a picture of sexually abused child, wikipedia is been used by everyone from adult to children, i dont think there is anyone who wants to subject his children to nudity, if wikipedia doesn't want itself in the list of blocked website then it has to something about the nudity on the site, regarding your explaination that there are no rules regarding nudity, now suppose if you live in a place where there are no laws regarding murder, does that mean that you will go around killing people because there are no rules regarding murdering people.

 * Oh look, it's a "concerned parent". Look, jerk, there are pictures of people's heads getting blown off on Wikipedia. There is Nazi paraphenalia on Wikipedia. There are Klan insignias on Wikipedia. There are AMERICAN insignias on Wikipedia (and yes some people, especially African, Haitian and indigenous people, very often regard U.S. insignias on par with fascist ones, whether or not you agree with such a perception). The N word has a definition on Wikipedia, as does a whole host of other racial, ethnic, and sexual slurs. But if we started censoring those, soon we'd start censoring everything.

Actually, in this particular case I find myself echoing the liberals, who I find disgusting politically, that say the Klan and Nazis should have freedom of speech. And, I do not agree with such an assertion, plus I think anyone who says that is a weasel who doesn't want to stand up to racists and fascists. But this (indecent exposure) is not that (Nazism), and is, in fact, in this particular case, with this particular thing, the repeated reversions act much more in the capacity of Moral Police than in any kind of "reasonable balance" capacity. If we were talking about keeping out a vandal, or protecting children against pedophiles, or the world against the racists and fascists who would destroy it, that's one thing, and it's a very good point in that case. But for godsake man (or woman; sorry), it's a girl showing her boobs in an article about people showing their boobs', or butts or what have you for the sexual gratification of themselves and for other people. That is why it is called indecent exposure and flashing, and why there are different things included about it in the same article. And OK, sure, kids might stumble across it and ask, "what's that?" when they see the boobs. Just in the same way they might stumble across the N word, or a swastika, or a penis in the shower when they are little with their daddies, and ask "what's that"? And guess what. If you do not know how to answer those questions, the questions of life, the problem lies with YOU as a parent, NOT with the children and certainly not with Wikipedia.

I am putting the picture back. You do not have a right to take it away. If you want to help, find a picture of a guy flasher. That's what's been generally decided, at least so far, is needed to balance the article out and make it not-sexist. Kiko 06:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone added a new version with the boobs censored by one of those black things. The problem with that is that it isn't flashing (and therefore doesn't fit the article) if they're still covered. And you're right, Wikipedia has a responisbility not to avoid topics just to please Puritans and concerned parents. If it's an article about flashing, it makes sense that people should be ready to see such a thing. And btw, whether or not the picture is even offensive varies from place to place (there are quite a few countries where this wouldn't be a big deal at all, getting rid of it to please the "concerned Puritan parents" is an example of conforming to a U.S.-centric perspective (or Iran-centric, Singapore-centric etc). Yeltensic42.618 ambition makes you look pretty ugly 15:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to wait a little while to see if anyone responds here, then if no one says anything first I intend to add the old picture. Yeltensic42.618 ambition makes you look pretty ugly 15:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's okay, I did it myself. I still think that the POV people have a point inasfar as having a girl flasher without a guy flasher is sexist (and it is, really, when you examine the issue). So, I'm still won to the idea, and am still in favor of, a guy flasher complementing the girl flasher. The trouble is where to find a trench-coat flasher or a Guys Gone Wild flasher that would fit the article. I tried going to some amateur-gay newsgroups, but those pics didn't fit too well, and I very quickly got tired of looking at guys. 71.255.209.50 20:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm somewhat bothered by the fact that anyone who doesn't drink from the wikipronia koolaid is a Puritan. I dunno, maybe some might thing the research quality of this encyclopedia might be hurt by, say, getting filtered by porn blocking software which becomes more likely, not necessarily because of this article, but the porn collections other users upload. There is a difference between censorship and choosing a level of appropriateness. Dare I ask if there is a brown shower article? -- Jbamb 22:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Funny you should mention. There are articles that correspond to both brown shower and golden shower when you type these terms into the search box. Neither contains pictures, thankfully, but I suppose that if a Puritan really wanted to make his or her point, s/he'd go find those pictures, and include them. Then this whole same ridiculous argument would get rehashed there in those Talk pages. I say, cross that bridge if/when we come to it. 71.255.209.50 23:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I tried to reach a compromise formula on the image, however it was not accepted, so the decision has been made, those images have no place here. It's FINAL.

 * Who are you and where do you get that authority? There's no such thing as finality on Wikipedia, unless (I guess) if you're an administrator in charge of the core software components, and even then, I bet you half the time (if not more) those very people have to defer to experts or collective decisionmaking amongst third-party editors such as ourselves. Besides which, those of us discussing the issue here have our own compromise measure, which hasn't been implemented quite yet, and until it is there's nothing wrong with the boobs. Therefore, I'm putting the picture back. Kiko 23:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

 * There are taken off again, and no discussion in this regard will be entertained.

Why the image in this article taken off again and reloaded again and again?.203.94.236.36

the anonymous authoritarian
You keep saying there will be no discussion, yet you 1) don't sign your name and 2) apparently, by not signing your name and not leaving any clue as to who you are, are no expert, no authority and have no basis upon which to say "end of discussion." In doing so, all you succed in is sounding like a parent who has sternly told their child, "no playing in the mud!" yet the next thing you know, the parent goes back inside and goes upstairs, and the child is back in the mud again.

My point is that if you want to have the authority to be definitive about this, you must first show that you are to be respected enough in your own right to warrant a command like that. Otherwise, any such commands ring hollow. 71.255.207.54 04:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you :-)

Indecency Awareness
There are many types of indecent things in our world today. Most of these indecencies lie within the media. Whether it be pornography on the internet, or an inappropriate sitcom on the television. To correct this problem, the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) have limited these talk shows and video programming to later hours in the day when they can not be viewed by younger kids. However, this does not stop these kids from seeing programs like this. It then ends up being the parents complaining about things like this and making a big uproar about having indecent things on television.

What parents need to understand is that there are many alternatives to maintain what there kids watch other than complaining. Today's technology has enabled us to use such things as channel blockers so kids are unable to access specific channels that might contain racy material. They also have a lot of alternative programming on televisions that are directed towards kids. Shows such as Sesame Street and Nick Jr. These programs are made for kids.

Again, I think it is ridiculous for people to want to ban all indecency from the media. Take the American Decency Association for instance. There is goal is to eradicate the showing of nudity and sex on television, sexually suggested magazine articles, the teaching of sex education in schools, and policies that promote homosexuality. From this I determined that if we want to get rid of inappropriate programs on television, then we must do so with all other sources. Seeing how we can not possibly do that, it seems foolish to try and stop the media from doing it.

In conclusion, I feel that trying to monitor what we see on television is a waste of time. If it is really important to a parent then they can use the parental control system that comes with their television. It just seems pointless to fight for something that we will not be able to change.

 * Talk pages are not for general discussion of topic. Such references may be removed.  KenThomas (talk) 23:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

trench coat picture?
We need a much better picture for the male in this article. It is not good enough for him to be "naked outdoors" or "naked in public" -- he actually needs to be exposing himself in the way we describe in the article. That means that someone either has to take a picture of a willing naked man in a trench coat that flashes the camera, or some victim of indecent exposure needs to have a camera in her purse (not likely). Either way, we need a much better pic than is currently on there for the male. 71.255.198.89 06:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What is the point?
I'm far from a Puritan, by any definition of the word, but even I was a bit startled by Mr Naked Dude on opening this page. I just want someone to explain to me what exactly he and his friends lower down the page are bringing to the article. Having pictures for the sake thereof is ridiculous - it's one thing to illustrate a complicated concept that can best be represented visually - which, I would argue, even includes articles like list of sex positions - but does the concept of "sometimes people take their clothes off when they shouldn't" really qualify? The fact that you've got a three-paragraph section literally surrounded by topless girls makes it really pretty hard to argue this is all just for science or whatever.

There is not, and should not be, a law universally barring nudity on Wikipedia. There is, however, a policy that says to use common sense. The rules are there to be interpreted - don't cling to the lack of a rule specifically banning something stupid as a justification for doing something stupid.

Adding possibly objectionable pictures to an article is fine if it improves the encyclopedia enough to compensate for the disadvantages. And claiming that there are no disadvantages is just silly. It's become abundantly clear that people are being upset by this. Puritans have a right to use Wikipedia too, even if you don't like them, and the last thing Wikipedia needs is for people to start avoiding us because we jam three tangential pictures that are clearly offensive to some into an article 750 words long without even justifying them. The picture of the man is irrelevant - he's outside, and he's naked, but that hardly gets at the spirit of "indecent exposure". By the admission of the caption, he's merely "tanning himself outdoors". The two pictures of the girls are redundant, and as I say, having one on each side of the article like that just makes it look like we're trying to cram in as many boobies as possible with no justification. A model, in my opinion, would be the article on the clothes free movement. There are three pictures in a much longer (and arguably better) article. Two of them (including the one that greets you when you first enter the article) are from far enough away, and are sized small enough, that they're essentially inoffensive. The other is directly relevant to the article, and positioned so that you can read the introductory paragraphs without seeing it. In this article, in contrast, it's completely impossible to avoid having at least one of the pictures on my screen at a given time. Indeed, much of the time when I was trying to read this article, I was trying to do so with four breasts and a penis on the screen simultaneously! That sort of thing is pretty hard to explain to your boss. People should never be in a situation where they're afraid to use Wikipedia. That defeats the entire purpose of the project.

Additionally, Kiko claims that "the female depicted [in the department store shot, I presume] is absolutely not 'clearly underage,'" and I suppose I would have to agree with that - but she's not clearly of age either. She could be twenty... or she could be fifteen. We don't know; past a certain point, it gets really hard to tell these things. The picture comes from Flickr - maybe there's more information there on her age, but damned if I'm creating an account just to find out, and in any case it can't be verified. If you gentlemen feel like doing a bit of research on porn sites, you'll see that they generally have, somewhere on the page, a statement to the effect that they have documentation showing all the models to be of legal age. Sure, as Kiko says, we don't have documentation proving she's not of age, but that's hardly the point. We don't have any kind of model releases available, not even the sorts any professional photographer would obtain before displaying a fully clothed portrait of an adult online. Wikipedia is not immune to controversy, and the last thing it needs is to be sued by some irate parent with a teenage daughter whose boyfriend illegally put a picture of her in a Wikipedia article. That's clearly an extreme circumstance, and probably quite unlikely. But the point is, this article is festooned with naked pictures, at least one of which could very well be of an underage model. The other girl looks a bit older... but of course we don't know for sure about her, either. We don't even know their names.

In short - if you want to put naked pictures on Wikipedia, fine. They're often quite useful, as I say. However, they should be relevant to the article, should be used tastefully, shouldn't give the impression that they're only there for the sake of being there, shouldn't be crammed into every corner of the page, and should follow the same standards that one would expect any serious reference guide to follow in documenting the meaningful consent of nude models. This article doesn't do any of that. So stop whining about how the Puritans are censoring you and get some useful pictures up!

I won't take the pictures out of the article now. I'll come back in about a week, to give time for discussion of this. Convince me that the pictures are relevant and improve the encyclopedia, and I'll gladly retract my criticisms. 69.140.12.199 07:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess this isn't on anyone's watchlist, despite all the earlier controversy... very well. I'm removing the pictures. Please respond to my above objections (and, preferably, improve the article!) before reinstating them. 69.140.12.199 23:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, 69.140.12.199, the picture adds nothing and is not really related to the specific topic of this page. Maybe it belongs on a page dedicated to exhibitionism, or activities to overcome boredom, but not this one. --PL, 28 Sep 2006

Necessity...?
I realize that Wikipedia is not censored for minors (see WP:ISNOT), but I don't believe that we need graphical evidence of this. I also see that there was previous discussion on removing the images. Any thoughts? > I r i d e s c e n c e <  ( talk )( contrib  ) 18:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

 * If you understand the rule why are you questioning it here? Is indecent exposure a special case of some kind?  Obviously I find the very idea stupid.  Shall we next remove images of breasts from the Breast article, since we hardly need graphical evidence of them?  Janizary 04:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

 * No, I do not find the idea stupid. (You might want to read WP:NPA before calling another idea stupid. It is not very becoming.) I just do not believe in the idea that there should be pornography in a non-pornography related article. In fact, the pornography article has fewer images that this article. I invite you to read this article. Your argument on Breast is not valid because that article illustrates various concepts and ideas that need illustration. I also invite you to read Choosing appropriate illustrations. This article does not relate to pornography or images of nudity in any form, and therefore should not be flooded with images of it. I'm sure that people can understand and visualize the concept of indecent exposure without pornography to assist them; therefore, the images in this article do not effectively illustrate a concept and therefore do not belong here. For these reasons, I am reverting the images. If you wish to return them, please explain why, on this talk page, and help reach a verdict before replacing them; this will allow the community to possibly reach a consensus. > I r i <font color="#93FFFF">d <font color="#AADDFF">e <font color="#CCBBFF">s <font color="#DDAAFF">c <font color="#D393FF">e <font color="#C870FF">n <font color="#BD44FF">c <font color="#AA33FF">e <  ( <font color="#00AA60">talk )( <font color="#0060AA">contrib  ) 01:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I couldn't give two shits what you say, I didn't call you stupid, I called your stupid idea stupid. Now I am calling you stupid, since I was not asking your opinion on if you thought it was stupid, I was informing you of my opinion, there was nothing to say no to.  You are truly deluded to believe these are pornographic, if you want to have a big pissing contest, that's fine.  The end result will be the images stay because you're not giving any valid reason to remove them - one does not censor and one does not remove content without a reason to do so.  Feel free to move on to artcles like body paint and remove that evil pornography, people will just revert you there too.  Janizary 03:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Excuse me. My edits are not vandalism. I am an active and very serious contributor to this project, and I am not about to throw that away because somebody wants to call me stupid. Body paint's images illustrate a concept. Having too many images in an article, equivalent to too many external links in an article, causes the article to be dwarfed by them. I am happy to discuss and reach a compromise over this disagreement, such as having only one image. If you wish to contest my arguments, please, by all means, go ahead. But do not make personal attacks. We are all wikipedians. I ask that you please refresh yourself on the Wikipedia etiquette standards before making another comment or reverting the article again. I am happy to resolve this conflict with a compromise, if necessary, but for that to happen you must be willing to discuss the issue and reach a consensus. Again, think about what you write before you write it. I'm here to talk; images reverted. <font color="#00EE88">> I <font color="#33FFBB">r <font color="#66FFDD">i <font color="#93FFFF">d <font color="#AADDFF">e <font color="#CCBBFF">s <font color="#DDAAFF">c <font color="#D393FF">e <font color="#C870FF">n <font color="#BD44FF">c <font color="#AA33FF">e <  ( <font color="#00AA60">talk )( <font color="#0060AA">contrib  ) 03:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * why would a compromise be one picture? this article is long enough to easily include two (or even three..), plus various pictures here would also illustrate a concept as you so put it. Mathmo 13:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

RESPOND to the criticism or lose the images.
Honestly, people, this is insane. The removal of the images was discussed immediately above this. No one protested; the images were removed. No one has given any response to those points, and now poor Iridescence here is being called "stupid" for having the temerity to point out the obvious - which has already been pointed out, and which no one has responded to! All of this makes it pretty hard for those of us who believe the images are detracting from the article to assume good faith on the part of their supporters, though believe me I am trying my damndest. I am removing the images. If you want to restore them, you had better have actual reasons for doing so; we'll discuss them, reach consensus, and then, if there's a general agreement in favor, the pictures can go up. Note that "OMG CENSORSHIP IS TEH BAD" is not a reason. I would certainly agree - and it sounds like Iridescence would too - that censorship is, indeed, teh bad. At this point, I think it's entirely fair to expect a serious and considered response to the earlier criticisms if the pictures are to be restored yet again. This is not an outlandish request, this is how Wikipedia works, and if you're incapable of working within that framework, the MediaWiki software is open-source and freely downloadable, and then you can make a page on indecent exposure with any genital/word ratio you like. But this is a Wikipedia article, and no consensus has been reached or even attempted on the part of the image-backers. If no one bothers to respond and the contested pictures get put up again without a consensus reached, at that point I'm afraid it has to be called vandalism and dealt with accordingly. 70.17.9.57 02:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree entirely. I was not trying to censor anything; in fact, you're right in the fact that I believe censorship is wrong. However, I also believe that shoving things in the faces of people is wrong. Janizary, please discuss this topic before moving on. Thanks. <font color="#00EE88">> I <font color="#33FFBB">r <font color="#66FFDD">i <font color="#93FFFF">d <font color="#AADDFF">e <font color="#CCBBFF">s <font color="#DDAAFF">c <font color="#D393FF">e <font color="#C870FF">n <font color="#BD44FF">c <font color="#AA33FF">e <  ( <font color="#00AA60">talk )( <font color="#0060AA">contrib  ) 20:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

History of flashing
This sentence: Is utter BS. The kids of the Sexual Revolution thought they invented sex too. The fist flasher was probably the caveman/woman who invented clothes. The sentence about flashing @ Mardi Gras is interesting, but kind of orphaned here. That info is probably in the Mardi Gras article, so I deleted it here.
 * It is uncertain exactly when or how flashing became more socially acceptable, but it likely has at least partially to do with the advent of the Sexual Revolution.

--204.184.214.8 (talk) 19:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)'Bold textBold textÂ••••••••••♥♥♥♥'== Before reverting images again: copyedits ==

Before reverting the images again (which will most likely happen, considering that no one here is actually discussing anything), would you please consider not alllllllllso reverting the copyedits by H Bruthzoo and 152.16.229.44? Thanks. <font color="#00EE88">> I <font color="#33FFBB">r <font color="#66FFDD">i <font color="#93FFFF">d <font color="#AADDFF">e <font color="#CCBBFF">s <font color="#DDAAFffyfjhvhjvjvhvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvj$\langle⟨⟨฿฿฿฿฿฿₯₯₯₯₯₯₯₯₯₯₯№№№№№№⟩⟩\rangle$F">c <font color="#D393FF">e <font color="#C870FF">n <font color="#BD44FF">c <font color="#AA33FF">e <  ( <font color="#00AA60">talk )( <font color="#0060AA">contrib  ) 04:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

>>>EXPLANATION OF IMAGE REMOVAL HERE!!<<<
I hope that this is obvious enough for you to find. Not that my others weren't, but hey.

Ahem. Anyways, I have removed the first image of this article. I can understand the other image on flashing as it directly pertains to the article and section. It actually makes sense now without the other image so blatantly shoving the idea in your face.

However, my argument on the first image is that that image more directly pertains to nudity or public nudity instead of indecent exposure. And that man most certainly is not "tanning himself outdoors," as the article suggests. He is just standing there. The image illustrates nothing.

Don't get me wrong, here. I am not trying to vandalize or censor this article. I only think that we should think about the images we put on articles before just plastering them everywhere. And I certainly think that we can obtain a better picture to illustrate the concept here than just some naked guy "tanning himself outdoors."

Any attempt to return the image without posting a reason or counterargument will be treated as vandalism. Please discuss this. Thanks. <font color="#00EE88">> I <font color="#33FFBB">r <font color="#66FFDD">i <font color="#93FFFF">d <font color="#AADDFF">e <font color="#CCBBFF">s <font color="#DDAAFF">c <font color="#D393FF">e <font color="#C870FF">n <font color="#BD44FF">c <font color="#AA33FF">e <  ( <font color="#00AA60">talk )( <font color="#0060AA">contrib  ) 04:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
Why are these pictures necessary? I don't really understand why there need to be pictures at all - is anyone unclear on what it looks like when you lift up your shirt? The second picture in particular strikes me as gratuitous. This isn't "Girls Gone Wild" (and those ads censor the nudity). I personally don't see the need for flashing illustrations at all, but less gratuitous pictures would be preferable. There are plenty of pictures of people flashing others in which you don't get a Mardi-Gras esqe breast-shot.

I'm surprised there aren't pictures of men, personally. Mooning is one of the most common forms of indecent exposure.
 * yup, an example of mooning and breast flashing would be excellent. being that they are the two most common forms of it. Mathmo 13:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)Thats why they call me slim shady im back im back

Why not give people a choice?
I happened to come across this page as I followed links from "Victorian Morals" and was surprised by the picture that was there. I've read through the arguments of those who want to keep the picture/remove the picture, and I tend to agree that no one has come up with good arguments to keep the picture. What's clear is that some people want to look at the picture while reading the article, and others don't. Is it possible to add the picture as a link, so it doesn't automatically appear on the page? If the reader thinks he/she needs an illustration, then a brief explanation of the image next to a link for it could make it pop up in a new window. I'm not sure how complicated it'd be to do that, but it seems plausible. Perhaps all articles dealing with nudity or sex could operate this way, so that the reader isn't forced to look at the images, but has the option to.

I agree whole-heartedly. Topless pictures have caused problems for lots of sites/search engines, because they're very easily seen by children (and a topless scene in a movie would very likely warrant it a PG-13 or higher). - Fluffyemu

EDIT: I just realized that the most gratuitous picture was removed. Whoever did so, I applaud you. The other picture does pertain to flashing, since she's in a department store. In addition, I think a mooning picture would be an appropriate addition too. The one on the "mooning" article is a bit organized/artificial. Whatever happened to high school jocks mooning the Burger King window?

Proposed de-inlining of pictures containing nudity
I suggest that the photographs of nudity be de-inlined, so that they will be displayed on the article page as shown in the example here. We would still preserve access to the photographs for readers who wished to view them, but they would not be obtrusively displayed to readers who do not want to view photographs of explicit nudity. John254 05:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please direct any further discussion on this proposal(s) to Talk:Vulva --Clawed 11:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Does this article have any value?
Sweeping generalizations regarding that which does or does not constitute "indecent exposure" under the laws of the United States has little or no basis in fact unless someone has actually checked the statutes in every municipality in the country, because every state, county, city and town government in the United States can write their own law and impose their own criminal penalties. In the State of New York, the state statute does not even use the phrase "indecent exposure" and you can read the relevant sections of the state penal law here: http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS. And while I may not be a legal expert, I do not believe that any branch of the federal government of the U.S. has the explicit power to regulate public nudity of any variety, except in regard to such areas as interstate transportation (such as airline travel) or federal property (such as national parks). I don't want to offend any one, but I really don't see that this article in its current state is doing very much other than lending a false credibility to a phrase in the vernacular that may have no legal standing. Cryptonymius 21:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Upon further investigation I've discovered the phrase indecent exposure actually does have some standing beyond the vernacular because it is actually used in many of the US statutes prohibiting the public exposure of the genitals. And thanks Robotman1974 for adding the multi-column code to the list of links (because I might have gone out of my mind trying to figure out how to do that).  Cryptonymius 06:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

However, even if a male exposes his flaccid penis (i.e., without an erection) to an unsuspecting and/or unwilling observer, such an action still differs from mere public nudity in that the intent of indecent exposure is to shock or harass. I removed this sentence from the article because at least several of the state statutes on exposure in the US require only that the actor expose the applicable body part in public, and intent is not an issue. Cryptonymius 07:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that an article defining the term is of value, but the current article is simply low quality and needs some improvement KenThomas (talk)

TfD nomination of Template:Linkimage
Template:Linkimage has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 22:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

United Kingdom
I have edited the law in the UK section to correct a number of errors. I was personally heavily involved with the process that lead to the current law and as an officer for British Naturism I have responsibility for this area. I have references available and I will add them in due course. It does not help that some of the standard legal texts misquote the Act.

There is no difficulty in the law of England and Wales about underage photographs provided that they are not sexual or erotic. Naturist photographs are perfectly legal.

Malcolm Boura, British Naturism. Rlo.bn (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Brainwashing
I think this article is written fairly well, but all it really delivers is that humans are brainwashed and believe things for no logical, scientific or moral reasons. They believe it is indecent only because of brainwashing opinions. What kind of reason is that? It is ridiculous and shames me to live in a world where laws are made based on "ew cooties" type thinking. There is nothing wrong with the human body, it is as it should be and is not indecent at all. Further more, I believe it to be a form of discrimination and hate crime. 71.112.193.110 (talk) 23:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Exactly. "Keep your clothes on or I'll lock you in a cage." It's argumentum ad baculum. The REAL indecency is writing and enforcing gymnophobic laws.50.130.10.152 (talk) 17:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Europe?
There's no information at all on indecent exposure laws in Europe besides Great Britain. I copied a tidbit from public nudity article, the section in question leads to this article, so this one would presumably need have more, not less info. I'll google a bit to see if I can find something, but some general info on how legal it is to be nude in public in Europe really should IMO be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryah (talk • contribs) 18:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Tradition
There are many sources speaking about how the Adam and Eve tradition about them hiding their genitals after eating from the tree has influenced modern-day indecent exposure laws and other prudish worldviews. Would such a note be notable enough to include in this article? <font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method <font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk  10:10, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I would have to say that I don't see anything in the above comment which really helps anyone make this decision. It would be useful if the editor proposing these changes provided some sort of indication, either by a quotation from a source or by a link to such a source, to help determine that answer. As we all know, WP:BURDEN applies here, and I do not see that those requirements have been met here. So I urge parties involved to actually produce the required source material, without which basic requirements of verifiability are not met. Highbeam Research doesn't show much if any reference material related to the topic, so it really doesn't help much, so I think it would be useful if the editor proposing the change also produced some of the required sources to verify the proposed changes. John Carter (talk) 00:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked Westlaw for law review articles and although 36 had the search terms "(religious) AND (indecent exposure)", only one was on point, and it just mentioned it in passing, referring to a judge's religious preference perhaps being involved. If there are WP:RS, then bring them forward, but I'm not seeing it right now.   GregJackP   Boomer!   23:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Psychological Reasons
.

Shouldn't there be a section in this article for the psychological / sexual reasons people would expose their genitalia to strangers? 2604:2000:7FC0:1:FD92:EA42:D60D:45BF (talk) 21:39, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

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UK Law
I believe that the quote from the Vagrancy Act 1824 was fully repealed by the Sexual Offences Act 2003 - see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo4/5/83/section/4 and specifically the F7 annotation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8B0:CA2C:DEAD:D52C:3327:A0B3:F140 (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Re-write ✅ to incorporate this. - Polly Tunnel (talk) 16:26, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It was not repealed by s.66. s.66 was the replacement but the repeal was done by Schedule 7, s.140. I will correct it. MalcolmBoura (talk) 21:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

"burqua"
This should read "burqa" - the Arabic and Persian letter normally transcribed as "q" (ق) is never followed by "u" plus another vowel, and sounds like "k", not "kw" (the rule that "q" should be followed by "u" is purely English). I would correct this myself, but it's a link, so I can't click on it without either activating or damaging it. And the article the link goes to is entitled "Burqa".89.212.50.177 (talk) 12:54, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

 * ✅ - Polly Tunnel (talk) 10:32, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Indecent exposure


text:
Compiled language

A compiled language is a programming language for which source code is typically compiled; not interpreted.

The term is vague since, in principle, any language can be compiled or interpreted and in practice some languages are both (in different environments). In some environments, source code is first compiled (to an intermediate form; often bytecode) and then interpreted.

Advantages and disadvantages
Programs compiled to native code tend run faster than if interpreted due to translation overhead. Environments with a bytcode intermediate form tend toward intermediate speed. Just-in-time compilation allows for native execution speed with a one-time startup processing time cost.

Low-level programming languages, such as assembly and C, are typically compiled, especially when efficiency is the main concern, rather than cross-platform support. For such languages, there are more one-to-one correspondences between the source code and the resulting machine code, making it easier for programmers to control the use of hardware.

It is possible to write compilers even for commonly interpreted languages. For example, Common Lisp can be compiled to Java bytecode (then interpreted by the Java virtual machine), C code (then compiled to native machine code), or directly to native code.

Environments that support multiple compilation output languages provide developers control to choose either execution speed or cross-platform compatibility.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Compiled language


text:
Home rule

Home rule is government of a colony, dependent country, or region by its own citizens. It is thus the power of a part (administrative division) of a state or an external dependent country to exercise such of the state's powers of governance within its own administrative area that have been decentralized to it by the central government. Home rule may govern in an autonomous administrative division; in contrast, though, there is no sovereignty separate from that of the parent state, and thus no separate chief military command nor separate foreign policy and diplomacy.

In the British Isles, it traditionally referred to self-government, devolution or independence of the countries of the United Kingdom—initially Ireland, and later Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. In the United States and other countries organised as federations of states, the term usually refers to the process and mechanisms of self-government as exercised by municipalities, counties, or other units of local government at the level below that of a federal state (e.g., U.S. state, in which context see special legislation). It can also refer to the system under which the Faroe Islands and Greenland are associated with Denmark.

Home rule is not, however, equivalent to federalism. Whereas states in a federal system of government (e.g., Brazil, Canada, Ethiopia, Germany, Switzerland, and the United States) have a guaranteed constitutional existence, a devolved home rule system of government is created by ordinary legislation and can be reformed, or even abolished, by repeal or amendment of that ordinary legislation.

A legislature may, for example, create home rule for an administrative division, such as a province, a county, or a department, so that a local county council, county commission, parish council, or board of supervisors may have jurisdiction over its unincorporated areas, including important issues like zoning. Without this, the division is simply an extension of the higher government. The legislature can also establish or eliminate municipal corporations, which have home rule within town or city limits through the city council. The higher government could also abolish counties/townships, redefine their boundaries, or dissolve their home-rule governments, according to the relevant laws.

Faroe Islands
The Faroe Islands is a self-governing country in the Danish Realm. Home rule was granted by the Parliament of Denmark in 1948, after a failed attempt of the Faroese to gain complete independence, with further autonomy granted in 2005. Denmark's monarch is the Faroese head of state. , The Faroe Islands are not part of the European Union, even though Denmark is.

Greenland
Greenland is a self-governing country in the Danish Realm. Following a referendum in Greenland where the majority favored a higher degree of autonomy, home rule was granted by the Parliament of Denmark in 1979. After another referendum, further autonomy was granted in 2009. Denmark's monarch is Greenland's head of state. Greenland is not part of the European Union, even though Denmark is.

India
Several nationalist leaders banded together in 1916 under the leadership of Annie Besant to voice a demand for self-government, and to obtain the status of a dominion within the British Empire as enjoyed by Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and Newfoundland at the time.

While enjoying considerable popularity for some years, its growth and activity were stalled by the rise of Mohandas Gandhi and his satyagraha art of revolution: non-violent, but mass-based civil disobedience, aimed at complete independence. Nonetheless, when Indian independence came in 1947, the new state was the Dominion of India. After three years, the Nehru Government ushered through the permanent Constitution of India creating a republic.

Ireland
The issue of Irish home rule was the dominant political question of British and Irish politics at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries.

From the late nineteenth century, Irish leaders of the Home Rule League, the predecessor of the Irish Parliamentary Party, under Isaac Butt, William Shaw, and Charles Stewart Parnell demanded a form of home rule, with the creation of an Irish parliament within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This demand led to the eventual introduction of four Home Rule Bills, of which two were passed, the Government of Ireland Act 1914 won by John Redmond and most notably the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (which created the home rule parliaments of Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland – the latter state did not in reality function and was replaced by the Irish Free State).

The home rule demands of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century differed from earlier demands for Repeal by Daniel O'Connell in the first half of the nineteenth century. Whereas home rule meant a constitutional movement towards an Irish parliament under the ultimate sovereignty of Westminster, in much the same manner as Canada, New Zealand, or the much later Scottish devolution process, repeal meant the repeal of the 1801 Act of Union (if need be, by physical force) and the creation of an entirely independent Irish state, separated from the United Kingdom, with only a shared monarch joining them; in essence, Home Rule would see Ireland become an autonomous region within the United Kingdom, while repeal would give the island a status more akin to a Dominion, an independent nation tied to Britain by a shared monarch.

 * 1886: First Irish Home Rule Bill was defeated in the House of Commons.
 * 1893: Second Irish Home Rule Bill passed by the House of Commons, vetoed in the House of Lords.
 * 1914: Third Irish Home Rule Bill passed to the statute books, temporarily suspended by intervention of World War I (1914–1918), finally following the Easter Rising in Dublin (1916).
 * 1920: Government of Ireland Act 1920 (Government of Ireland Act 1920) fully implemented in Northern Ireland and partially implemented in Southern Ireland.

Senior Liberals Lord Hartington and Joseph Chamberlain led the battle against Home Rule in Parliament. They broke with the Liberal leader William Ewart Gladstone who insisted on Home Rule, and in 1886 formed a new party, the Liberal Unionist Party. It helped defeat Home Rule and eventually merged with the Conservative party. Chamberlain used anti-Catholicism to build a base for the new party among "Orange" Nonconformist Protestant elements in Britain and Ireland. Liberal Unionist John Bright coined the party's slogan, "Home rule means Rome rule." Ultimately, the Irish Free State was established in 1922 as an independent Dominion sharing the British monarch as head of state, though Northern Ireland was separated from the new state and gained its own Home Rule Parliament which existed until 1972 (The current Northern Ireland Assembly was created in 1998; between 1972 and 1998, Northern Ireland was under direct rule from Westminster).

England
English home rule has been discussed in relation to proposals for constitutional changes regarding England following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum.

Scotland
In a similar fashion to Ireland, supporters of home rule in Scotland have historically desired greater levels of devolved governance within the United Kingdom. Although the term 'home rule' has been largely superseded by "devolution," the home rule movement can be seen as the forerunner to the creation of the current devolved Scottish Parliament.

Administrative devolution was granted to Scotland, with the creation of the Scottish Office, in 1885. In the mid-20th century, the home rule movement became significant, campaigning for a Scottish assembly. Between 1947 and 1950, the Scottish Covenant, a petition requesting a Scottish legislature within the UK, received over two million signatures. It was not until 1979 that devolution entered the political sphere – the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum was held. Despite a vote of 51.6% in favour of devolution, the Scotland Act 1978 was not put into effect due to a requirement that the 'Yes' vote receive the support of 40% of the electorate, which was not met on 63.8% turnout. In 1999, due to the success of a second referendum, the Scottish Parliament was created.

District of Columbia
The U.S. Constitution gives jurisdiction over the capital city (District of Columbia or Washington, D.C.) to the United States Congress in "all cases whatsoever". This jurisdiction necessitated that the District not be a state, nor part of a state. At certain times, and currently since 1973, Congress has provided for D.C. government to be carried out primarily by locally elected officials. However, congressional oversight of this local government still exists, and locally elected officials' powers could theoretically be revoked at any time.

Local government
In the United States, some states constitutionally or legislatively grant home rule to cities, counties, and municipalities within their borders. These are called "home rule states". Local governments in home rule states are free to pass laws and ordinances as they see fit to further their operations, within the bounds of the state and federal constitutions. In other states, local governments have only the authority expressly granted to them by state legislatures, typically in accordance with the legal principle known as Dillon's Rule. A city charter, awarded by the state, defines the limits to a municipality's powers.

Native American reservations
The United States federal government provides limited self-rule to some federally recognised Native American tribes over their lands on reservations. Tribal lands are recognised as "dependent domestic nations" and operate a parallel system of governance and law independent of the state(s) that the reservation lies within, often including separate police forces. For instance, some tribes are permitted to operate gambling establishments which may be illegal in the surrounding state or states. Reservations are not states and have no direct representation in Congress, and the citizens vote as citizens of the state by which they are surrounded. Furthermore, unlike the sovereignty of state legislatures, tribal sovereignty and land ownership are not guaranteed by the Constitution and is granted only by an act of Congress, which can be repealed or altered at any time.

title: Home rule


text:
Talk:Compiled language

C# compiled?
C# is NOT a compiled language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.184.231.65 (talk) 14:25, October 9, 2006 (UTC)

 * According to me C# is compiled. cdc.exe compiles C# source to MSIL code which is then JIT compiled to machine code whiche is the interpreted by the CPU. Dylan Borg (talk) 21:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Java compiled?
Hello, would it be appropriate to say that Java is "compiled", in that sense that it is compiled to bytecode? Or is that too strong? I ask, because the article on Clojure says, near the end: "Clojure is a compiled language producing JVM bytecode"... Or am I nitpicking... Anyone know a *reference* for this phrasing? 65.183.135.231 (talk) 15:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Article organization
Please divide the list to languages compiled to native code and compiled to bytecode, because it's confusing. C#, Java, Cobra are compiled to bytecode. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.73.63.140 (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

"Compiled language" is a meaningless term
There can't be agreement on this. The list of languages that are compiled languages have so many in common with the list of languages that are interpreted languages. The problem is that the property is not in fact intrinsic to the language. This should be merged with the compiler page just as the interpreted language page should be merged with interpreter. Trying to state that there is such a thing as an interpreted or compiled language causes very really confusion in people who are trying to understand programming languages. -MM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.55.158 (talk) 05:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, the term has no possible meaningful definition. This page should be deleted. 190.41.173.174 (talk) 22:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep. Compiled language is not a thing. Stevebroshar (talk) 22:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Traditional compiled language
I just blasted in a large amount of new text concerning the centrality within computer science of traditional compiled languages.

Every practicing computer programmer with any sense of history at all knows precisely what this means. Enough with this airy-fairy ivory tower business of "well, the term 'compiled' could really mean anything, in a pure taxonomic sense".

We're doing a terrible disservice to the reader if we fail to point out that there's an extremely concrete sub-reference implied by this phrase among all working professionals, with 70 years of deep history and still going strong.

I don't have the time or inclination to stick around and futz with my voluminous initial draft. I saw the gap, and figured I could blast something out that was representative and serviceable in two frantic hours, which I did.

For the past two weeks, after having lapsed for about a decade, I decided to bring myself back up to speed with embedded development, which lead me to the RISC-V development, most of which was entirely new to me. What do they talk about (almost obsessively): the felicity of RISC-V with respect to exactly the kinds of optimizations that traditional compilers perform. Register colouring remains hot news. I watched an entire hour presentation about register allocation in the LLVM framework.

This new open source hardware movement is not exploding out of the gate because everyone wants to integrate a dozen tiny, dedicated RISC-V cores onto the same chip to run Python. Anyone who wanders into the modern world of DIY EDA (yikes!) has a harsh surprise coming if Haskell is their closest working approximation of a perfectly good low-level language.

Make no mistake, there's a rising tide here of "back to the machine" at the silicon/RTL layer, with plenty of academic muscle behind it, in addition to growing industry participation.

As a final note, though I am not without strong opinions, it is my personal policy to be 100% non-possessive about my contributions here on Wikipedia. Fire away at liberty on my fresh prose contribution, I've blown the joint after my hasty one-time dump and moved along. — MaxEnt 17:05, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 * One point I'd like to stress is that a C program does not have a defined meaning until after translation. Even then, many behaviours are not defined until the translated program is run on a particular version of the OS. And even then, a great many C programs still contain undefined behaviour. For example, signed integer overflow is undefined behaviour in both C and C++, meaning that anything can happen, including the host computer reinstalling its operating system from 5.25" floppy disk or nasal daemons. A great many large C programs fail to input validate anywhere near adequately to ensure that the code never lapses into signed integer overflow. This issue is inherent to the tradition of compiled languages: some deliberately delay (or eschew) semantics to an ungodly degree. Java, in particular, tried to depart from this tradition, and managed to define floating point so rigidly that a fully conformant x86 implementation could only operate at 10% of its native performance level (the guard bits on the extended precision 80-bit internal representation had to be explicitly sheared off for floating point to achieve precise compliance with Java rounding semantics; Sun apparently didn't give a shit about this, I guess because they didn't think anyone should be running on Wintel machines in the first place—and look where Sun is now: the oracfice where the Sun never shines). Anyway, my point is that the compiler (translation phase) is hardly a neutral party to compiled-program semantics, and entire shelves of books could be written about this, without turning any new stones. — MaxEnt 17:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 * First, thanks for your contribution. However, that was a huge amount of text with only one sentence being referenced, and raises many WP:OR and WP:RS issues. I've reverted it, but if you have actual sources, I'd encourage you to begin re-making the changes you can support with sources. It might make sense to do so in stages so that other editors don't have to digest tons of text all at once, but that's not an essential point. The important point is avoiding the OR/RS issues. TJRC (talk) 18:04, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Approaches to compiled language specification
Each separate language article on Wikipedia can have some text about this buried in a different subsection each time, but I'm suggesting here that it would actually be useful to cover this subject in rough overview here in this article, because it matters vastly more than the uninitiated can possibly fathom.

Source code is not written with a single compiler for a single target in mind, but often a family of similar compilers (e.g. x86 architecture) for a family of related targets (e.g. Linux/Unix). Depending on the nature of your application, you might need to do a considerable amount to also run that code on Windows/x86 or MacOS/x86 or MacOS/RISC-V (perhaps coming soon).

There's a CS 201 view of compilation as a formal translation stage. This has next to no relationship to industry practice for big languages like C or C++, where the language specification, the library specification, the language implementation, the library implementation, the target memory model, the target memory model implementation, the ABI specification, the ABI implementation, the OS specification, and the OS implementation all actively participate as distinct cogs in the gigantic mill. And all of this still gives way, in many instances, to dumb random luck. — MaxEnt 18:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

 * No idea what your point is. ... And source code is often written for exactly one compiler; sometimes for one processor model. Stevebroshar (talk) 22:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Compiled language


text:
Yamagata Aritomo

Gensui Prince Yamagata Aritomo (山縣 有朋) also known as Prince Yamagata Kyōsuke, was a Japanese statesman and military commander who was twice-elected Prime Minister of Japan, and a leading member of the genrō, an élite group of senior statesmen who dominated Japanese politics after the Meiji Restoration. As the Imperial Japanese Army's inaugural Chief of Staff, he was the chief architect of the Empire of Japan's military and its reactionary ideology. For this reason, some historians consider Yamagata to be the “father” of Japanese militarism.

During the latter part of the Meiji Era, Yamagata vied against Marquess Itō Hirobumi for control over the nation's policies. After Itō was assassinated in 1909, he emerged as the most powerful figure among Japan's genrō. Henceforth, Yamagata remained the nation's preeminent statesman until a political crisis arising from his meddling in Crown Prince Hirohito's engagement resulted in him losing power shortly before his death in February 1922.

Early career
Yamagata Tatsunosuke was born on 14 June 1838, in Kawashima, Abu, below Hagi Castle (present-day Hagi, Yamaguchi Prefecture), the eldest son of samurai foot soldier (ashigaru) Yamagata Aritoshi. His father was a low-ranking samurai who carried weaponry during wartime and was a petty official at the town magistrate office (machi-bugyō-sho) during peacetime. Yamagata's mother died when he was 4 years old, and he was raised by his strict grandmother. Although Aritoshi was a petty town magistrate official, he studied kokugaku, wrote poetry, and excelled in academics. Yamagata was taught academics by his father Aritoshi. He had his coming of age ceremony (genpuku) at age 15, and started off as a petty official at the Chōshū Domain and then at the Meirinkan. Later, he served the territorial magistrate (daikan), going from village to village learning general duties of a samurai official. His childhood name was Tatsunosuke, after which he was briefly known as Kosuke and Kyōsuke, before changing his name to Aritomo after the Meiji Restoration.

He went to Shokasonjuku, a private school run by Yoshida Shōin, where he was active in the growing underground movement to overthrow the Tokugawa shogunate. He was a commander in the Kiheitai, a paramilitary organization created on semi-western lines by the Chōshū domain. During the Boshin War, the revolution of 1867 and 1868 often called the Meiji Restoration, he was a staff officer.

After the defeat of the Tokugawa, Yamagata together with Saigō Tsugumichi was selected by the leaders of the new government to go to Europe in 1869 to research European military systems. Yamagata like many Japanese was strongly influenced by the striking success of Prussia in transforming itself from an agricultural state to a leading industrial and military power. He accepted Prussian political ideas, which favored military expansion abroad and authoritarian government at home. On returning he was asked to organize a national army for Japan, and he became War Minister in 1873. Yamagata energetically modernized the fledgling Imperial Japanese Army, and modeled it after the Prussian Army. He began a system of military conscription in 1873.

Military career
As War Minister, Yamagata pushed through the foundation of the Imperial Japanese Army General Staff, which was the main source of Yamagata's political power and that of other military officers through the end of World War I. He was Chief of the Army General Staff in 1878–1882, 1884–85 and 1904–1905.

Yamagata in 1877 led the newly modernized Imperial Army against the Satsuma Rebellion led by his former comrade in revolution, Saigō Takamori of Satsuma. At the end of the war, when Saigo's severed head was brought to Yamagata, he ordered it washed, and held the head in his arms as he pronounced a meditation on the fallen hero.

He also prompted Emperor Meiji to write the Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, in 1882. This document was considered the moral core of the Japanese Army and Naval forces until their dissolution in 1945.

Yamagata was awarded the rank of field marshal in 1898. Throughout his long career, he amassed extensive leadership experience managing battlefield strategy and other military-related issues as the acting War Minister and Commanding General during the First Sino-Japanese War; the Commanding General of the Japanese First Army during the Russo-Japanese War; and as the Chief of the General Staff Office in Tokyo. Additionally, he was the founding father of Japan's Hokushin-ron policy due to his central role in drawing up a preliminary national defensive strategy against Russia following the Russo-Japanese War.

Political career
Yamagata was one of seven elite political figures, later called the genrō, who came to dominate the government of Japan. The word can be translated principal elders or senior statesmen. The genrō were a subset of the revolutionary leaders who shared common objectives and who by about 1880 had forced out or isolated the other original leaders. These seven men (plus two who were chosen later after some of the first seven had died) led Japan for many years, through its great transformation from an agricultural country into a modern military and industrial state. All the genrō served at various times as cabinet ministers, and most were at times prime minister. As a body, the genrō had no official status, they were simply trusted advisers to the Emperor. Yet the genrō collectively made the most important decisions, such as peace and war and foreign policy, and when a cabinet resigned they chose the new prime minister. In the twentieth century their power diminished because of deaths and quarrels among themselves, and the growing political power of the Army and Navy. But the genrō clung to the power of naming prime ministers up to the death of the last genrō, Prince Saionji in 1940. Yamagata also held a large and devoted power base among officers in the army and militarists in Japanese society. He profoundly distrusted all democratic institutions, and constantly strove to undercut their influence as a member of the genrō. Likewise, he devoted the later part of his life defending the privileges of the Restoration regime's institutions, especially those held by the army.

During his long and versatile career, Yamagata held numerous important governmental posts. In 1882, he became president of the Board of Legislation (Sanjiin) and as Home Minister (1883–87) he worked vigorously to suppress political parties and repress agitation in the labor and agrarian movements. He also organized a system of local administration, based on a prefecture-county-city structure which is still in use in Japan today. In 1883 Yamagata was appointed to the post of Lord Chancellor, the highest bureaucratic position in the government system before the Meiji Constitution of 1889.

After the creation of the Cabinet of Japan, Yamagata became the third Prime Minister of Japan. During his first term from December 24, 1889, to May 6, 1891, he became the first prime minister compelled to share power with a partially-elected Imperial Diet under the Meiji Constitution which took effect in 1890. On October 30, 1890, he presided over the enactment of the Imperial Rescript on Education. In order to pass a budget for the fiscal year 1891 (beginning in April), he had to negotiate with a liberal majority in the House of Representatives, the elected lower house of the Diet. Yamagata became prime minister for a second term from November 8, 1898, to October 19, 1900. In 1900, while in his second term as prime minister, he ruled that only an active military officer could serve as War Minister or Navy Minister, a rule that gave the military control over the formation of any future cabinet. He also enacted laws preventing political party members from holding any key posts in the bureaucracy.

In addition to his service as prime minister, Yamagata obtained considerable experience traveling abroad as a diplomat. Attending the coronation of the Russian Czar Nicholas II on November 1, 1894, he made a tentative offer to Spain on buying the Philippines for £40 million. Likewise, in 1896, he led a diplomatic mission to Moscow, which produced the Yamagata–Lobanov Agreement confirming Japanese and Russian rights in Korea Yamagata also served as President of the Privy Council from 1893 to 1894 and 1905 to 1922. While serving his second term as president in 1907, he was elevated to the peerage and received the title of koshaku (prince) under the Japanese kazoku system.

From 1900 to 1909, Yamagata opposed Itō Hirobumi, leader of the civilian party, and exercised influence through his protégé, Katsura Tarō. After the assassination of Itō Hirobumi in 1909, Yamagata became the most influential statesman in Japan and remained so until his death in 1922, although he retired from active participation in politics after the Russo-Japanese War. As president of the Privy Council from 1909 to 1922, Yamagata remained the power behind the government and dictated the selection of future prime ministers until his death.

In 1912 Yamagata set the precedent that the army could dismiss a cabinet. A dispute with Prime Minister Marquis Saionji Kinmochi over the military budget became a constitutional crisis, known as the Taisho Crisis after the newly enthroned Emperor. The army minister, General Uehara Yūsaku, resigned when the cabinet would not grant him the budget he wanted. Saionji sought to replace him. Japanese law required that the ministers of the army and navy must be high-ranking generals and admirals on active duty (not retired). In this instance all the eligible generals at Yamagata's instigation refused to serve in the Saionji cabinet, and the cabinet was compelled to resign.

However, his power was greatly damaged in 1921 when he expressed strong opposition to the engagement of Hirohito and Nagako citing color blindness of Nagako's family. The Imperial family struggled against the pressure from Yamagata and the couple eventually managed to get married.

Yamagata died on 1 February 1922 and he was given a state funeral.

Personal life and hobbies

Prince Yamagata was a talented garden designer, and today the gardens he designed are considered masterpieces of Japanese gardens. A noted example is the garden of the villa Murin-an in Kyoto.

As Yamagata had no heir, in 1861 he adopted a nephew Katsu Isaburō, the second son of his eldest sister, to be his heir. Yamagata Isaburō subsequently assisted his adopted father by serving as a career bureaucrat, cabinet minister, and head of the civilian administration of Korea.

In April 1868 at the age of 29, Yamagata married the 16 year-old Tomoko, a daughter of the headman of the Chōshū Domain before his departure to Kyoto. Yamagata returned back to the Domain in July to hold a wedding ceremony. They had seven children, all except his second daughter Matsuko (born August 1878) had died young.

After his wife Tomoko's death in 1893, Yamagata took in a geisha named Yoshida Sadako as his de facto wife; her name was never registered onto the Yamagata family registry.

Peerages in the Kazoku and other titles

 * Count (July 7, 1884)
 * Genrō (May 26, 1895)
 * Marquis (August 5, 1895)
 * Gensui (January 20, 1898)
 * Prince (September 21, 1907)

Decorations

 * Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun, 2 November 1877
 * Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun, with Paulownia Blossoms, 5 August 1895
 * Grand Cordon of the Order of the Chrysanthemum, 3 June 1902; Collar, 1 April 1906
 * Order of the Golden Kite, 2nd Class, 5 August 1895; 1st Class, 1 April 1906

Order of precedence

 * Fifth Rank, August 1870
 * Fourth Rank, December 1872
 * Third Rank, December 1884
 * Second Rank, October 1886
 * Senior Second Rank, 20 December 1895
 * Junior First Rank, 1 February 1922 (posthumous)

Foreign

 * German Empire:
 * Knight of the Royal Order of the Crown, 1st Class, 22 December 1886
 * Grand Cross of the Order of the Red Eagle, 14 June 1899
 * Kingdom of Portugal: Grand Cross of the Royal Military Order of Our Lord Jesus Christ, 25 August 1887
 * Kingdom of Italy: Grand Cross of the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus, 30 October 1889
 * Austria-Hungary: Knight of the Order of the Iron Crown, 1st Class, 22 November 1890
 * undefined: Grand Cross of the Legion of Honour, 7 May 1897
 * undefined:
 * Honorary Member of the Order of Merit, with Swords, 21 February 1906
 * Honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George, 3 July 1918
 * Russian Empire: Knight of the Order of St. Alexander Nevsky, 14 January 1916

title: Yamagata Aritomo


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Matsukata Masayoshi

Prince Matsukata Masayoshi (松方 正義) was a Japanese politician who was Prime Minister of Japan from 1891 to 1892 and 1896 to 1898.

Early life
Matsukata Masayoshi was born on 25 February 1835, in Arata, Kagoshima, Satsuma Province (present-day Shimoarata, Kagoshima, Kagoshima Prefecture), the fourth son of Matsukata Masayasu and his wife Kesaku. His family was of the samurai warrior nobility class. Both his parents died when he was 13 years old.

At the age of 13, he entered the Zoshikan, the Satsuma domain's Confucian academy, where he studied the teachings of Wang Yangming, which stressed loyalty to the Emperor. He started his career as a bureaucrat of the Satsuma Domain. In 1866, he was sent to Nagasaki to study western science, mathematics and surveying. Matsukata was highly regarded by Ōkubo Toshimichi and Saigō Takamori, who used him as their liaison between Kyoto and the domain government in Kagoshima.

Knowing that war was coming between Satsuma and the Tokugawa, Matsukata purchased a ship available in Nagasaki for use in the coming conflict. This ship was then given the name Kasuga. The leaders of Satsuma felt the ship was best used as cargo vessel and so Matsukata resigned his position as captain of the ship he had purchased. Just a few months later the Kasuga did become a warship and it fought in the Boshin War against the Tokugawa ships. At the time of the Meiji Restoration, he helped maintain order in Nagasaki after the collapse of the Tokugawa bakufu. In 1868, Matsukata was appointed governor of Hita Prefecture (part of present-day Ōita Prefecture) by his friend Okubo who was the powerful minister of the interior for the new Meiji government.

As governor Matsukata instituted a number of reforms including road building, starting the port of Beppu, and building a successful orphanage. His ability as an administrator was noted in Tokyo and after two years he was summoned to the capital.

Financial reform
Matsukata moved to Tokyo in 1871 and began work on drafting laws for the Land Tax Reform of 1873–1881.

Under the new system:
 * 1) a taxpayer paid taxes with money instead of rice
 * 2) taxes were calculated based on the price of estates, not the amount of the agricultural product produced, and
 * 3) tax rates were fixed at 3% of the value of estates and an estate holder was obliged to pay those taxes.

The new tax system was radically different from the traditional tax gathering system, which required taxes to be paid with rice varied according to location and the amount of rice produced. The new system took some years to be accepted by the Japanese people.

Matsukata became Lord Home Minister in 1880. In the following year, when Ōkuma Shigenobu was expelled in a political upheaval, he became Lord Finance Minister. The Japanese economy was in a crisis situation due to rampant inflation. Matsukata introduced a policy of fiscal restraint that resulted in what has come to be called the "Matsukata Deflation". The economy was eventually stabilized, but the resulting crash in commodity prices caused many smaller landholders to lose their fields to money-lending neighbors. Matsukata also established the Bank of Japan in 1882. When Itō Hirobumi was appointed the first modern-day Prime Minister of Japan in 1885, he named Matsukata to be the first Finance Minister in his cabinet.

Matsukata also sought to protect Japanese industry from foreign competition, but was restricted by the unequal treaties. The unavailability of protectionist devices probably benefited Japan in the long run, as it enabled Japan to develop its export industries. The national government also tried to create government industries to produce particular products or services. Lack of funds forced the government to turn these industries over to private businesses which in return for special privileges agreed to pursue the government's goals. This arrangement led to the rise of the zaibatsu system.

Matsukata served as finance minister in seven of the first nine cabinets, and led the Finance Ministry for 15 of the 20-year period from 1881 to 1901. He is also believed to have had significant influence on drafting Articles 62–72 of the Meiji Constitution of 1890.

Prime minister
Matsukata followed Yamagata Aritomo as Prime Minister from 6 May 1891, to 8 August 1892, and followed Ito Hirobumi as Prime Minister from 18 September 1896, to 12 January 1898, during which times he concurrently also held office as finance minister.

One issue of his term in office was the Black Ocean Society, which operated with the support of certain powerful figures in the government and in return was powerful enough to demand concessions from the government. They demanded and received promises of a strong foreign policy from the 1892 Matsukata Cabinet.

Later life
Matsukata successively held offices as president of the Japanese Red Cross Society, privy councillor, gijokan, member of the House of Peers, and Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal of Japan. Later, he was given the title of prince and genrō.

In 1902 he visited US and Europe. He arrived in London from New York in late April. During his stay, he was received in audience by King Edward VII at Buckingham Palace on 2 May 1902, and received an honorary degree from the University of Oxford the following month. In July he visited Vienna and St Petersburg before returning to Japan.

Honours and decorations
Incorporates information from the Japanese Wikipedia article

Titles

 * Count (July 1884)
 * Marquess (1907)
 * Duke (18 September 1922)

Decorations

 * Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun (22 July 1881)
 * Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun with Paulownia Flowers (31 October 1899)
 * Collar of the Order of the Chrysanthemum (14 July 1916; Grand Cordon: 1 April 1906)

Matsukata was named an Honorary Knight Grand Cross of Order of St Michael and St George (GCMG) in the November 1902 Birthday Honours list published to commemorate King Edward VII′s birthday.

Honorary degrees

 * D.C.L. (honorary) University of Oxford - June 1902, during a visit to the United Kingdom

Personal life and relatives
Matsukata had many children (at least 13 sons and 11 daughters) and grandchildren. It is said that Emperor Meiji asked him how many children he had; but Masayoshi was unable to give an exact answer.

Matsukata's son, Kōjirō Matsukata (1865–1950) led a successful business career at the head of the Kawasaki Heavy Industries and K Line groups, while investing his significant personal fortune in the acquisition of several thousand examples of Western painting, sculpture and decorative arts. His intention was that the collection should serve as the nucleus of a national museum of western art. Although not achieved during his lifetime, the 1959 creation of the National Museum of Western Art in Tokyo was a vindication of this passion for art and a demonstration of the foresight which benefits his countrymen and others.

Another son, Shokuma Matsukata, married Miyo Arai (1891-1984), who, as Miyo A. Matsukata, was instrumental in introducing the Christian Science religion to Japan, and who became one of the first Japanese to engage in the public practice of Christian Science healing.

His granddaughter, journalist Haru Matsukata Reischauer, married the American scholar of Japanese history, academic, statesman and United States Ambassador to Japan, Edwin Oldfather Reischauer.

title: Matsukata Masayoshi


text:
Talk:Repeal (Ireland)

If the name of the demand is "Repeal", why isn't this at Repeal (Ireland) or something? Tokerboy

I was trying to work out a logical link. Grammatically, 'Irish' given the context would be more correct than 'Ireland' though we could drop the Irish bit altogether. But it does still have to be Repeal, not repeal, because it is a formal term. JTD 05:28 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)

Kingdom of Ireland
Why is the term "Kingdom of Ireland" used, who was Irelands King? --Domer48 14:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Text
I deleted the text on this page as the information was completely un-referenced and un-sourced. In addition the information was both inaccurate and misinformed. If however the material can be all referenced, and sourced, regardless weather it is true, reverts would be appropriate.--Domer48 19:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Useless?
I don't see the point of this page, to be honest. It's not very informative and doesn't seem to serve a purpose. Sadistik 16:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, it is already here Repeal Association. I will get around to expanding it, Repeal Association, that is, at some time. But as for this one, no, there is no keed for it. --Domer48 18:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I have now merged it to Repeal Association. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Repeal (Ireland)