text:
User talk:Pde

Old Topics
Hello and Welcome! I hope you like the place. --mav

Opps, sorry. This browser is so f***king annoying when it does that. I thought the saved version had saved it all, but obviously not. Thanks for telling me. JTD 23:02 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Hey Pde, you're at the same university as me! I don't know if you've been to Wikipedians/Australia yet, but there's a spooky density of Wikipedians in Victoria, and steadily getting spookier. -- Tim Starling 08:52 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)

Have you been to Kew lately? If melbourne has an upper class (and logically it must have), that is one of the places they live. Cheers Adam 01:02, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes well I should have known I would get that answer, serves me right. :)

I see we have some interests in common - Zidovudine caught my eye at once.

Adam 04:16, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Re East Yarra, yes I did notice that, in fact you nearly elected two Labor MLCs because of the by-election. (This is a hobby of mine see my election archives).

I see you have written a lot about Aust political history, as have I and others. One of the weaknesses of this project is that it grows without planning. Do you think it would be a good project to try and consolidate all the Aust politics and govt articles into a coherent structure that people could follow, and also to try and achieve some uniformity of standards?

Adam 14:30, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sorry comrade, the Moreton preferences story is a myth. See this page Adam 09:47, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hello Pde! I'm sorry but i saw your comments on Pompey just now. I replied in the talk page. Cheers, Muriel Gottrop 10:29, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Pde: See User Talk:sanders_muc for a reply to your question. -- S

pde: I'm unfamiliar with the logical operator that you used there. Tell me, how does the statement you made: "it's an open question (that is, the answer is unknown), thus the answer is x." work? It's seems like it would be a very powerfull operator, which could solve all sorts of unanswered questions. -Kevin Baas

Hi Pde, congratulations on your Computer Science comments for the Matrix Series pages, they were quite insightful. I'll be checking out some more of your edits. Lawrence Lavigne 01:57, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I'm supposing you read some paper by some young student that spoke of this "the universe is a turing machine" theory. I have to say, PDE, you're very gullible. Open your eyes! Look around you! Mathematics is a tool. "The Matrix" is a movie. etc. etc. Physics is not reality. Physics is a very piecemeal and makeshift description. It cannot "prove" anything. Perhaps you need to study a little philosophy of science. Start with Husserl's phenomenology. Sir Francis Bacon might be a good resource, as well. -Kevin Baas 2003.12.24

I'm pretty well read, but I'd be happy to hear your suggestions.

"If the theories get good enough, then perhaps they can aspire to having captured all of the things which make reality what it is." - This statement is completely delusional. Think about it for a little bit.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend. If you want to see some of what I've contributed, you can check out the fractional calculus section. Please don't vandalize it. And ask a little nicer next time. Be a little bit more mature in your comments. -Kevin Baas 2003.12.24

WikiProject Melbourne
Hi, Pde. Seeing as you've listed yourself at Wikipedians/Australia as being from Melbourne, why don't you drop by the WikiProject Melbourne and help add something to the Wikipedia about our city?

Be sure to visit the Project talk page, and if you are interested, you can become a member.

TPK 13:54, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC) (My talk page is at User talk:Hypernovean).

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 2000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Unverified image
Thanks for uploading the image I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the image and I'll tag it for you. Thanks, Kbh3rd 05:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Image:Usfta-copyright.jpg

The Santamaria article is now called B.A. Santamaria and I have rewritten it. You might like to amend your user page accordingly. Adam 11:22, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia in Tetum

 * Help building a Wikipedia in Tetum, the national language of East Timor. Give your contribution to the improvement of its test page -- Regards, 195.23.53.121 11:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Manuel de Sousa

Legal action
Who has advised you of "pending legal action" and what have they said about it? Adam 09:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Tuggerah Lakes tornado 1959
Do you know anything about the Tuggerah Lakes, NSW tornado of 19 Sept 1959? It is allegedly suspected violent or even F5, but I can't find any information on it. Also, the tornado events listing is now subdivided, see List of Southern Hemisphere tornadoes and tornado outbreaks. Evolauxia 00:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

FYI: I thought you might find this interesting
Nov 2006. The severe thunderstorm forecast and warning process in Australia. 23rd Conference on Severe Local Storms. St, Louis, MO: American Meteorological Society. Evolauxia 07:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Kudos!
I was just reading the talk page on Hypercomputation, particularly the discussion between you and Mr. Hypergeniusknowitallboy. I've got to tell you, I am very, very impressed with your patience. You seem like you'd be a really cool guy IRL. Kudos to you! 68.83.10.206 (talk) 21:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Muahahaha
MY BAD LOL :(

Habanero-tan (talk) 04:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

 * User:Pde/List_of_most_frequently_mentioned_brands_in_the_Billboard_Top_20

 * ^present for u - Habanero-tan (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Tamper resistance
A tag has been placed on Tamper resistance requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Vinithehat (talk) 01:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Bicycle Geometry Article?
A looooong time ago, you pointed out that Bicycle and motorcycle geometry deals only with steering geometry. I think it is time to create an article dedicated exclusively to all aspects bicycle geometry. If you have input, please voice it at Talk:Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry. Thanks. Ebikeguy (talk) 15:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Newitz COI
Peter - as a staffer at the EFF, which Newitz was an employee of, and has maintained a close connection to (per web info), I would politely suggest you refrain from editing her entry. We're having some serious COI discussions already on Charlie Anders' talk pages. Let's not bring Newitz into the fray as well. 76.169.140.29 (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

File:Usfta-copyright.jpg needs authorship information
Dear uploader:

The media file you uploaded as File:Usfta-copyright.jpg appears to be missing information as to its authorship (and or source), or if you did provide such information, it is confusing for others trying to make use of the image.

It would be appreciated if you would consider updating the file description page, to make the authorship of the media clearer.

Although some images may not need author information in obvious cases, (such where an applicable source is provided), authorship information aids users of the image, and helps ensure that appropriate credit is given (a requirement of some licenses).

 * If you created this media yourself, please consider explicitly including your user name, for which: will produce an appropriate expansion, or use the own template.

 * If this is an old image, for which the authorship is unknown or impossible to determine, please indicate this on the file description page.

If you have any questions please see Help:File page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Melbourne meetup
Hey all, just a reminder that there's a meetup tomorrow at 11am in North Melbourne. There are more details at the meetup page. Hope to see you tomorrow! SteveBot (talk) 04:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

United LAX-MEL flights
Hi there. United still operates direct flights between Los Angeles and Melbourne (not nonstop but one-stop same plane with a stopover at Sydney; see WP:AIRPORTS for reason). If you look at united.com, United Flight 839 still operates daily. Thanks! Snoozlepet (talk) 00:43, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Meetup invitation: Melbourne 26
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup next Sunday (6 January). Details and an attendee list are at Meetup/Melbourne 26. Hope to see you there! John Vandenberg 07:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

(this automated message was delivered using replace.py to all users in Victoria)

Speedy deletion nomination of Credo Reference

A tag has been placed on Credo Reference, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page seems to be unambiguous advertising which only promotes a company, product, group, service or person and would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic. Please read the guidelines on spam and FAQ/Organizations for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Unforgettableid (talk) 23:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Moving pages during AfD discussions
Hello, you recently moved a page that was at AfD ; when the discussion was closed as delete, the closing administrator ended up not deleting the actual article but instead the pagemove redirect. While the move was probably correct, could you either 1) refrain from performing pagemoves while the article is at AfD or 2) put a clear note on the discussion page that you moved it? (See WP:NOMOVE, as well.) Cheers, Ansh666 04:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I did the latter! -- pde (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:IPBE
Hello Pde. I have issued this permission to you for a period of six months. If you need it longer, please contact me or make a request at WP:UTRS. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 01:22, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

adaptive clinical trial
Hi Peter. I’m sure you’re right, but unfortunately what you added goes against the Wikipedia policy against original research. I don’t have access to the source that would support what you added, but hopefully you do. Thank you. - Taxman457 (talk) 14:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

RIP
you will be missed. Notrealname1234 (talk) 00:58, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:Pde


text:
Talk:Bon (festival)

Need rewrite

 * Done. But maybe some additional information might be nice as well. Cimon avaro 19:29 May 13, 2003 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Bon (festival)


text:
Light-on-dark color scheme

A light-on-dark color scheme, better known as dark mode, dark theme or night mode – is a color scheme that uses light-colored text, icons, and graphical user interface elements on a dark background. It is often discussed in terms of computer user interface design and web design. Many modern websites and operating systems offer the user an optional light-on-dark display mode.

Some users find dark mode displays more visually appealing, and claim that it can reduce eye strain. Displaying white at full brightness uses roughly six times as much power as pure black on a 2016 Google Pixel, which has an OLED display. However, conventional LED displays cannot benefit from reduced power consumption. Most modern operating systems support an optional light-on-dark color scheme.

History
Predecessors of modern computer screens, such as cathode-ray oscillographs, oscilloscopes, etc., tended to plot graphs and introduce other content as glowing traces on a black background.

With the introduction of computer screens, originally user interfaces were formed on cathode-ray tubes (CRTs) like those used for oscillographs or oscilloscopes. The phosphor was normally a very dark color, and lit up brightly when the electron beam hit it, appearing to be white, green, blue, or amber on a black background, depending on phosphors applied on a monochrome screen. RGB screens continued to operate similarly, using all the beams set to "on" to form white.

With the advent of teletext, research was done into which primary and secondary light colors and combinations worked best for this new medium. Cyan or yellow on black was typically found to be optimal from a palette of black, red, green, yellow, blue, magenta, cyan and white.

The opposite color set, a dark-on-light color scheme, was originally introduced in WYSIWYG word processors to simulate ink on paper, and became the norm.

Microsoft introduced a dark theme in the Anniversary Update of Windows 10 in 2016. In 2018, Apple followed in macOS Mojave. In September 2019, iOS 13 and Android 10 both introduced dark modes.

Firefox and Chromium have optional dark theme for all internal screens. It will also be possible for third-party developers to implement their own dark themes.

In 2019, a "prefers-color-scheme" option was created for front-end web developers, being a CSS property that signals a user's choice for their system to use a light or dark color theme.

In July 2024, Wikipedia's mobile website received a dark mode.

Energy usage
Light on dark color schemes require less energy to display on OLED displays. This positively impacts battery life and reduces energy consumption.

While an OLED will consume around 40% of the power of an LCD displaying an image that is primarily black, it can use more than three times as much power to display an image with a white background, such as a document or web site. This can lead to reduced battery life and higher energy usage unless a light-on-dark color scheme is used. The long-term reduced power usage may also prolong battery life or the useful life of the display and battery.

The energy savings that can be achieved using a light-on-dark color scheme are because of how OLED screens work: in an OLED screen, each subpixel generates its own light and it only consumes power when generating light. This is in contrast to how an LCD works: in an LCD, subpixels either block or allow light from an always-on (lit) LED backlight to pass through.

"AMOLED Black" color schemes (that use pure black instead of dark gray) do not necessarily save more energy than other light-on-dark color schemes that use dark gray instead of black, as the power consumption on an AMOLED screen decreases proportionately to the average brightness of the displayed pixels. Although it is true that AMOLED black does save more energy than dark gray, the additional energy savings are often negligible; AMOLED black will only give an additional energy saving of less than 1%, for instance, over the dark gray that's used in the dark theme for Google's official Android apps. In November 2018, Google confirmed that dark mode on Android saved battery life.

Issues with the web
Some argue that a color scheme with light text on a dark background is easier to read on the screen, because the lower overall brightness causes less eyestrain. Others  argue to the contrary. Some pages on the web are designed for white backgrounds; Image assets (GIF, PNG, SVG, WOFF, etc) can be used improperly causing visual artifacts if dark mode is forced (instead of designed for) with a plugin like darkreader.

There is a  media feature on CSS, to detect if the user has requested light or dark color scheme and serve the requested color scheme. It can be indicated from the user's operating system preference or a user agent.

CSS example:

JavaScript example:

title: Light-on-dark color scheme


text:
Talk:Amedeo Modigliani

Untitled
The title of one of Modiglian's most well known paintings was removed by ZOE. I have reinstated this important factual information. Too, Modigliani's nationality was determined by ZOE alone to be Italian. This was done by her without facts, and obviously no knowledge of him, his life, or his works. I removed it, leaving FACTS which is what an enclclopedia is supposed to be. Too, she arbitrarily removed my reference to this important painting. Go figure, but then, ignorance is bliss...DW

My removal of the painting's name was unintentional. When I reverted the arbitrary changes you made, I left in the change that you made when you put the title back in. I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because I told you I wasn't going to be talking to you any more unless you learn how to be civil. So consider this my last message. -- Zoe

Not only are you destructive to this sight, you try to cover it up by lies. This is not an "isolated" accident. It is you playing God after I pointed out your ignorance and lack of knowledge YESTERDAY. PLEASE explain to everyone your reason for removing the title. I'm sure people would like to know before they expend energy doing hard work that you will "unintentionally" destroy....DW ESQ

A little more proof of your conduct: YOU SAID ABOVE:I left in the change that you made. Right, so what about the next change when I reinstated the reference to the portrait in the text, text that took me hours to prepare but seconds for you to wilfully destroy? Nice play on words to cover up your destruction. I don't object to any improvements and certainly recognize my dedicated work can always stand imporovement. But why do you choose to destroy important facts, then lie and manipulate your words to deceive readers? I'm sorry, I just don't understand this kind of thinking, nor do I understand why you would even touch a subject on WHICH YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...DW

 * How on earth did it take you "hours" to write "including "Madame Pompadour" shown here"?Tokerboy

 * Please don't feed the trolls. --Brion 05:28 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

I reinstated the following important reference that was deleted by ZOE: --- including "Madame Pompadour" shown here,--- I would like her to explain how this is either Wikifying an article or adding to it, or improving it?

DW, if you explained why you don't think he should be described as Italian, others may very well agree with you. Is he known to have objected to being called Italian? Did he self-identify as something else? Is there a debate over his nationality? For example, my grandmother could be correctly called Italian because she moved to the US from Italy, and was born there. She would self-identify as Sicilian, though, and would not like to be called Italian as she considers the nationalities distinct, and actually doesn't like Italians too much. If, for some bizarre reason, she warranted a wikipedia article, she should be called Sicilian and not Italian. I, on the other hand, am nearly 100% Sicilian in ancestry, but self-identify as Italian (in the US; elsewhere, I would say American). I wouldn't object to my nationality being referred to as Sicilian, but, if asked, I say Italian (and would do so even if being Sicilian did not lead to Mafia-related questions most of the time). Hence, if I had a wikipedia article, I should be called Italian-American with maybe a mention that I'm descended from Sicilian immigrants. Tokerboy

You've called this an "arbitrary" distinction and the like. While all nationalities are arbitrary, they are also real things that deserve to be mentioned where appropriate. What makes you think that it is inappropriate in this case? (Or do you not think biography articles should never mention a person's nationality?) Tokerboy

 * I don't *know* what DW's point was, but I can guess. Since Modigliani was racially Jewish, DW was probably upset that Modigliani was classified as an Italian.  DW could either have been offended due to a sense of credit for Modigliani being "stolen" from the Jews, or due to a desire to "protect" Italian racial purity, although I have no idea which.  In Tokerboy's hypothetical wikipedia entry, he would call himself an Italian-American.  Perhaps similarly we could classify Modigliani as a "Jewish-Italian", but that phrase would never have been used by the man himself.  As far as how Modigliani identified himself, I know little beyond the fact that he occasionally introduced himself as "a painter and a jew".  Still - calling him an "Italian Artist" reflects only one vision of the facts.

DW, you have given no-one any reason why this page should not follow standard style. If there is a reason why Italian should not be used here, say it. If not, stop tampering with this page. And stop making childish threats to vandalise pages of people who touch 'your' pages. JTD 03:31 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)

The content below was posted at Modigliani, now a redirect. Charles Matthews 11:25, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Amadeo Modigliani (1884-1920) was an Italian painter and sculptor who was concerned with simplicity of line and form in the human figure. He is popularly known for his oval-faced portraits of friends and acquaintances.

Modigliani's style was unique among his contemporaries in Paris, surrounded as he was by artists experimenting with impressionism, surrealism, and cubism.

Ill health, in particular pneumonia and tuberculosis, affected him throughout his life. He died of tubercular meningitis at the age of 36. His fame rocketed after his death, and he is now considered the leading artist of the Paris School.

Recent sale
I added fact about the recent sale of a Modigliani painting of his then lover, Jeanne. I site the following link : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4118496.stm.

I am somewhat bothered by the statement "...and the few paintings that change hands can sell for more than $15.6 million." Exactly where does the figure $15.6 million come from ?

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this article !

- KLestes

Maybe it was one of the multitude of fakes created by Elmyr de Hory? The Clifford Irving book, Fake!, of 1969 has 35 pages mentioning the times de Hory created Modigliani drawings (which he would knock out by the dozens) & paintings as well as the ease he had selling them to galleries and Algur Meadows (either personally or thru his "sales agent", Fernand Legros). Clifford Irving was de Hory's next door neighbor on the Spanish island of Ibiza. Irving of course is famous in his own right for the Howard Hughes diary hoax.

Fake! -- LoC #72-86087. A good read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbryant 94560 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Overemphasis on personal life
I was quite surprised to see what a small proportion of this page was devoted to Modigliani's art. No doubt his personal life is relevant, but at the moment the page reads like tabloid character assassination (e.g. philanderer in the first paragraph), virtually ignoring his significance as a portrait painter. Furthermore a lot of the details about his personal life, particularly his sexual exploits, are unsourced and fail to make the distinction between legend and events which are actually known to have happened. I don't have the knowledge to fix this myself, so am adding a standards tag. Zargulon 12:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've made a start at this, trimming some of the more tabloid-like material and POV, citing a couple of facts, and adding citation requests to some others. The amount of work needed on this article is certainly daunting, and I ran out of steam by the Personal Life section, which I think would benefit from heavy pruning.  More information about the significance of his painting would be even more beneficial.   —Cel  ithemis  02:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! I did some editing for coherence, but really the entire entry is devoted to his personal life.

JNW 23:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to talk about Modigliani without getting caught up in his life, don't you think?

This is a good point, though, so I'm trying to trace his development as an artist; hopefully that strategy will address matters. It will still be necessary to talk about how his life influenced his development as an artist, though.

I'm working my way slowly through the tomes that my local libraries have on Modigliani, so hopefully the details that I am adding from these sources are 'facts', rather than conjecture, gossip, and rumour.

Oh, and I'll try to work the word 'hashish' in as often as possible, as it seems to be someone's mission in life to show the world that Modigliani smoked marijuana.

Personally, I think he preferred absinthe; if only the green fairy hadn't been made illegal...

Trenavin 04:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal life
Of course it's hard not to get drawn into his life story (so satisfyingly tawdry), and, as with any artist, not easy to separate it from his work. It's a matter of finding the right balance for an encyclopedic entry, which you, Trenavin, and previously Celithemis, are working to provide. JNW 02:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * While it is wrong to blank a large part of an entry, the recent deletion of the 'personal life' section might go a long way to striking just that right balance. JNW 19:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Bohemian myths
I wish people would refrain from spouting the usual bohemian myths surrounding people like Modigliani. A common one with him is that he was some sort of extravagant hedonist, but the fact is he was just to destitute to afford to be drunk or high on narcotics all the time as he is all to oft portrayed.

One need look no further than his Tuberculosis and apalling poverty, and so poor living conditions, to explain his untimly death.

Amedeo Felix 14:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

In Modigliani's case, tis not a myth. The literature is pretty clear re: his abuse of substances. JNW 04:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

To quote directly from Encyclopaedia Britannica: "... (in 1914) his already delicate health was deteriorating because of his poverty, feverish work, and the abuse of alcohol and drugs". These are not romanticized fantasies, but the circumstances of his life. JNW 04:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, but frankly could, until I find a solid reference which refutes the "indulgence" issue, be happy if the passage included his poverty and overworking as the Britannica entry you chose to quote does. So if you ammend that back again you really are being biased and unfair to him. Amedeo Felix 14:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said I still refute the "indulgance" slant. My father has read up on Modi all his life, he went to the length of naming his only son (me) after the man, and taught me that it was his poverty above all things which was his undoing - that he could not afford to indulge as he is purported to have. I shall check with him on possible sources to back this up. Amedeo Felix 15:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing I thought may be useful to point out is the fact that "biographical" information is almost always based upon hearsay rather than any kind of seriously verifiable source. People telling their “stories” of another human being are by nature biased, which affects their recollections. So the image of Modi as a lush may well be one borne of prejudice in the eyes of people who knew him or worse based on what someone told someone who told someone etc. Amedeo Felix 13:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Editors, writers, and contributors have a responsibility to do the best research they can, based upon the most reliable sources, not what they wish to believe. That is the essence of the principles referred to in wikiland as verifiability, no original research, and neutral point of view. If one is claiming that encyclopedic information is untrue, then the refuting evidence must be offered to substantiate the claim. All else is rationalization, and not suitable for contribution. JNW 04:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What a snooty reply. How's about keeping your sarcasm to yourself, eh? Pathetic, especially given that in the example you chose of "evidence" to refute my claim of poverty being the factor in Modi's demise it says that very thing! It listed poverty FIRST. I maintain, right now without the ability to give a "big nose" pleasing reference, that his "abuses" were more myth than fact - I have heard, again no quoted or references are lodged in my brain but would take research, from more than one source that he gained a reputation for being an inebriate from his love of pretending to be high when he was not. Amedeo Felix 08:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I also said "OK" let the drug bit stay until I can give a reference. This section is just talk however, and needs no references etc as far as I can see, so once again keep your this kind of thing to yourself: "Editors, writers, and contributors have a responsibility to do the best research they can, based upon the most reliable sources, not what they wish to believe. That is the essence of the principles referred to in wikiland as verifiability, no original research, and neutral point of view. If one is claiming that encyclopedic information is untrue, then the refuting evidence must be offered to substantiate the claim. All else is rationalization, and not suitable for contribution." Amedeo Felix 08:30, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Point taken re: tone; have deleted my previous opening sentence as too provocative. The irony here is that some months ago, as is evident in previous entries on this page, I found the article heavily weighted toward the subject's personal dissolution. As for this discussion, I recommend also reviewing policy regarding talk pages, which states in boldface: "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views", and "Research and debate should meet the same standards of verification, neutral point of view and no original research. There is reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion and personal knowledge with a view to prompting further investigation, but it is a serious misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements". In the past week you have twice added non-encyclopedic speculation on this particular matter to the article; when reverted the second time, you took the issue to the talk page, seeking to make a case, still without supporting scholarship. Your initial contention here is contradicted by an encyclopedic (I have not heard the term 'big nose' before--what does this mean?) source. Documentation which could provide evidence that Modigliani did not suffer from drug and alcohol abuse would be welcome, and would merit inclusion in the article. In the end, it is the beauty of his art for which he is remembered. JNW 19:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You do acknowledge though that the citation from Britannica makes poverty it's first item in contributory factors? Is that mere coincidence with my assertion that it is poverty which was the paramount factor. I took exception to the stereotypical reference to "abuse" as a cause of his death. What I have stated here is from personal knowledge gained from a lifetime of listening to my father talk of Modigliani, and from having researched the man myself for University. I can, and will, have a look at the paper I wrote and check the sources I used then (it may be found easily enough for any interested by using my name and the appropriate reference in a web search - I put all my Uni papers on-line for others to make use of)... Amedeo Felix 18:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the "big nose" thing, well I guess you gotta be a fan of The Smiths to know that one, sorry... "there's always someone with a big nose who knows..." I was just being silly in an quotish sort of way. Amedeo Felix 18:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I fear we've gone back and forth on this enough already. But what the heck--my impression is that tuberculosis and poverty were the primary factors in his death, the ill effects of which were hastened by his lifestyle. Personally, I don't much care for the romantic stereotypes either, but rather, to get as close to the truth about his circumstances as possible. And I suspect he really did push his luck. My concern was that you were editing out of a very personal connection (I can't imagine how I would be if my parents had named me Rembrandt), and were not being neutral. But any contradictory information would actually be fascinating, all the better to paint a more complex picture of the man. Maybe there are credible biographies with which you or your father are familiar, which would shed new light on his life...as for the Smiths: I haven't heard their music in years, but when I was younger I liked them. JNW 22:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. Most like we got off on the wrong foot so to speak. I thought the reference only to the drink & drugs misleading. Which is why I wanted the original passage deleted. That's all... Amedeo Felix 23:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Giving up sculpture.
This is a question really to anyone who may be able to help in clearing this matter up. Something I have been told by my father as to why Modi gave up sculpting was his TB, combined with poverty - that is to say he could not continue due to his health, stone requires preparation (i.e. a great deal of carving before getting down to the precise work which produces the finished sculpture) and the dust produced by this simply played havoc with his condition, and of course, unlike a monetarily successful artist, he could not afford to hire an artist's assistant to do this work for him, and so he was forced to give it up. So of course what I am asking is has anyone else ever come across this explanation and still further what was the source? Amedeo Felix 09:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

two changes,
i added micheli's first name, and added "Micheli's Art School" instead of "studied under micheli".

The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.

It amazes me that all of you are wasting time self engrandizing and attacking each other... rather than discussing the facts about Modigliani..71.172.192.57 03:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

 * That's what I wanted too. I think facts need to be verified, which is always a problem with biographical information as most of it is anecdotal in nature – hearsay given by people who oft have an exe to grind.  I have my doubts on the drug issue for twofold reasoning – one his crashing poverty and two the stories I have read, told by friends of his like Soutine, on how he loved to play up on any inebriation, thus any who did not know him well may well have thought him a useless drunk/druggie – meanwhile he was then perfectly placed to observe everyone who thus thought him incapable.

 * Nobody seems to want to engage in any debate on why he gave up sculpture either. I just don’t have the time right now to re-read on his life and works, but invited anyone who has an interest and recalls references to engage me on that subject – no takers though… --Amedeo Felix 11:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

His Name?
What about the most important thing to begin with: the name of the man?!? I haven't seen any discussion or any proof anywhere that would lead to the idea that his name was Amedeo. He was italian, so his name must have been Amadeo. Are you all from the united states or what?? 88.157.68.219 (talk) 16:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Pardon??? It's Amedeo in Italy.  Look it up.  There have been numerous famous Italian footballers bearing the name for a start...--Amedeo Felix (talk) 07:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC) See my newly attached photo of his grave...--Amedeo Felix (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I confirm, the italian form is Amedeo. The same is written evrywhere about him. Ciao. --Simoneschiaffino (talk) 19:09, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Jewish
I object to calling him Jewish. I think that ought only be applied to people who observe Judaism. Modi was NOT religious, he just happened to be born into a family that had a heritage of observing Judaism. Is someone a Catholic who does not believe? No.--Amedeo Felix (talk) 07:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding personal standards for application of the term, his religious heritage is readily accepted in the literature. From 'Modigliani: Beyond the Myth' (2004):
 * (Modigliani) referred to himself as "un juif du patriciat," a Jew of the patrician class...
 * But the fact that he was Jewish and frequently made a point of it is a surprise to many.
 * What kept Modigliani from being a full-fledged Cubist was most likely his interest in Old Master painting, specifically Italian Renaissance portraiture, and his interest in being a Jewish artist.
 * As noted in my previous edit summary, religious observance is not the sole factor in ascribing heritage. I am re-introducing the reference to the lead. If this is still a subject of disagreement, I recommend administrative input, rather than edit-warring. JNW (talk) 13:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I notice, above, that the article "falls within the scope of WikiProject Jewish culture, a project to improve all articles related to Jewish culture". This suggests that the biography could include more information regarding this aspect of the artist's heritage. JNW (talk) 13:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO it is both historical and interesting to learn that Modigliani is a Jewish artist. Clearly the information should remain..per User:JNW..Modernist (talk) 14:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO Modi used his Jewish heritage as a foil the same way he used his poverty, and his illness. Think in "punk" terms - e.g. "I'm a Jew f**k you!"  The world he inhabited was a hostile one to artists, more so to foreign artists, and exponentially so to Jewish foreign artists.  So he took the "contrary" position.  This is my impression of the man as gained from absorbing accounts from many sources, and I state it here not for any kind of academic "proof", but just as open debate material.  If I come across quotable accounts to illustrate my impression I shall attach them here...  I just want you all to know where I am coming from, OK?--Amedeo Felix (talk) 22:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds right on, consistent with what is written about his personality, and probably supported by the scholarship. What I have come across is the observation that his Judaism, while not the subject of formal observance, nonetheless informed his life and his work. Even if he referred to it merely to be contrary, it was, as you correctly note, a rather big fact in his life in France. He even said that it was not an issue in Italy, but in Paris...JNW (talk) 22:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Second thoughts on this: I have just read WP:MOSBIO, which suggests that "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." So the issue is not so much whether he was practicing the religion, but rather, whether it was important to his notability. On that basis, I am more ambivalent about the mention in the lead paragraph. As to the mention of his friends: I don't know yet about Soutine, but the sources are pretty unanimous in referring to Utrillo as an alcoholic. JNW (talk) 20:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne Hebuterne's Place in Modigliani's Life
It seems too dismissive of Hebuterne to refer to her as "the current love of Modigliani's life." As biographers have pointed out, Modigliani's friends considered her the love of his life, period. Modigliani had many, many love affairs before he met Hebuterne, but few or none after her. Significantly, she was the only woman he ever referred to as "ma femme"--my wife. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Younggoldchip (talk • contribs) 13:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you're right. The "Jeanne" section should be expanded. - Josette (talk) 16:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Woman with a Necklace
Is there any reason why Woman with a Necklace is not listed anywhere as a work of Modigliani?

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/artwork/59923

208.116.214.226 (talk) 18:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia doesn't necessarily list artists complete works; or even incomplete lists of artist works; there are only a few artists who have lists so far...Modernist (talk) 20:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Oversize gallery
I trimmed this a bit, but it's growing again. Please see Wikipedia is not an image repository. The bulk of this gallery would make a good Commons gallery page, with just the "best of the best" here. --Pete Tillman (talk) 22:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I added some important portraits that belong in this article as well as his painting included here: List of most expensive paintings, the gallery is long but not overlong...Modernist (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Family's relationship with Dutch philosopher Baruch Spinoza.
How can the lineage be traced to the 17th-century Dutch philosopher Baruch Spinoza when Spinoza is known never to have married nor to have fathered any children? At the most the lineage can be traced to his siblings but certainly not to himself. Marklinklaters (talk) 11:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Guglielmo Micheli and Domenico Morelli
I removed the sentence that said that Modigliani in the studio of Micheli was steeped in "19th century Italian art". Mainly, I do not think it is possible to characterize Italian 19th century painting as one style or even styles to "steep in". Nor do I think Micheli studio functioned in that manner, nor was Micheli a good representative of any one academic style. Clearly Micheli had a greater attachment to Realism, and the discombobulating experiments of Picasso and Cezanne came too late in his career to lead him to drift in the range of Modigliani. It was however revolutionary in the first decades of the 19th century to start to paint outdoors and the real landscape. It was revolutionary for Florentines to splash color. I do not think that the paragraph understands the nature of Machiaioli. I would not have make Morelli its precursor. Also while I can find his early work such as the Sicilian Vespers, melodramatic; I am not sure it was viewed in that light under the autocratic Bourbon monarchy. Nor do I find later Morelli to be melodramatic: dramatic? yes, but melodrama is pejorative.

Ultimately Modigliani's triumph is rooted in Italian love of art, but sparked by the Parisian revolutionary spirit. I am not aiming to rewrite the Modigliani entry. Only mild additions.Rococo1700 (talk) 16:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I re-added the omitted sentence even before reading your explanation here. Your essay above seems to indicate you study the period's art yourself and you seem to have your own views on the art and on the history of art developments of the period. But on Wikipedia, all the views you express above would be called "Original Research," unless there are other secondary reliable sources that you can point out to that would express these same views. Feel free to re-write the entry section, but point to sources that would express the views you are adding per Wikipedia policy, please. Regards, warshy (¥¥) 20:24, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, actually,, it's the content currently in the article that reads like original research – a whole mass of fanciful speculation with little or no support from reliable sources. We read that "Among his colleagues in that studio would have been Llewelyn Lloyd, Giulio Cesare Vinzio, Manlio Martinelli, Gino Romiti, Renato Natali, and Oscar Ghiglia". Why do we care who they would have been? What we want to know is who they actually were, with a citation of a reliable source to back the statement up (the Treccani page on Micheli does indeed list those people as having passed through his studio, but does not give dates). And the same goes for the rest of it: "In his earliest Parisian work, traces of this influence, and that of his studies of Renaissance art, can still be seen. His nascent work was shaped as much by such artists as Giovanni Boldini as by Toulouse-Lautrec." Says who? And where? And is there any reason to believe that they are right? It's a pity is not planning to rewrite this page, because I believe it would benefit from a major overhaul. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I did not write the page, except for some sentences in it, and from my memory nothing related to the sentences you mention. Feel free to rewrite whatever you wish. warshy (¥¥) 19:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

IPA
You can check here (look for "Modigliani" – notice it gives phonemes, but Italian phonetic transciptions as per MoS require vowel lenght in stressed open syllables. Your * is a nonstandard (rather Northern-like) pronunciation.--Carnby (talk) 19:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's all mostly Chinese to me. But according to that dictionary I guess you have made your case. Thank you very much for putting my doubts to rest finally. warshy (¥¥) 19:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Reclining Nude with Blue Cushion
I've redirected Reclining Nude with Blue Cushion to this article for now. Feel free to expand! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 01:10, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Untitled
Tried to add this, but it got blocked. --Look I Forget My youknowwhat (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't find any image additions in your total of four Wikipedia edits, so not sure what you may have tried to do. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

"Italian Jewish"
I edited the opening which referred to Modigliani as "Italian Jewish". There is no reason why the ethnicity/religion of a historical figure/artist should be mentioned in the opening. As a matter of fact, it's usually avoided in Wikipedia articles, unless there are specific reasons which makes such an indication relevant to whatever the circumstances that made the figure historically renown. Anyone can easily verify that this is the case by having a look at the articles of other prominent Jewish figures in this enciclopedia: they are never defined as "Jewish" in the opening, their origins/family background/religion being discussed in the biographical section. The versions of this article in other languages (the French and German ones more specifically) also don't mention Modigliani being Jewish in the opening. Another user (User:Modernist) has engaged in an edit war to reinstate the "Italian Jewish" phrasing. They have never offered a reason for doing so except a extremely vague "it's better", "it's useful". I hope other users will discuss their reasons for reverting my edit in this talk page, or abstain from undoing the edit. -- Sansgloire (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Continued from above... [https://books.google.es/books?id=sMFWyRO3E34C&q=Modigliani+%22Je+suis+Juif%22&dq=Modigliani+%22Je+suis+Juif%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-mqfAp4H0AhU9DGMBHTnrB80Q6AF6BAgIEAI And here: "Je vous emmerde. Je suis juif." (F--- off. I'm a Jew.)]. Coldcreation (talk) 13:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC) This is from Modigliani et son œuvre: Étude critique et catalogue raisonné, 1956, page 10. "Brusquement, Modigliani se leva, et, campé devant les deux antisémites, il leur jeta : Je suis Juif... et je vous emmerde. [I am Jewish... and F--- off.]. Coldcreation (talk) 13:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Stop edit warring Sansgloire. Modigliani was referred to as "Le bon petit Juif de Livourne" (little Jew from Livorno) by his contemporaries. He formed part of a community of Jewish artists in Paris at the time, with Marc Chagall and many other. It is relevant to the artists notability. His religion was an important element of his life and work. See for example Des peintres maudits by Gustave Coquiot (1924).Coldcreation (talk) 10:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What is that source supposed to prove? It doesn't show in any way that his religion was "an important element of his life and work". I tried to search "Le bon petit Juif de Livourne" on a browser and no results about Modigliani came out - not that it would have made any difference even if they did. Modigliani's religion doesn't have any special prominence in the artistic works he is renown for. He wasn't even a religious person. His origins are discussed in the biographical section, as it is usually done on Wikipedia. You didn't address the point I was making: ethnicity/religion is never stated in such terms (that is, to define the figure's nationality, as it is the case with "Italian Jewish") on articles about other prominent Jewish figures, and it is generally considered inappropriate to do so. Albert Einstein is not referred to as a "German-born Jewish physicist" in the opening of his article for example - this is one of countless other examples I could make of course. Wikipedia articles in other languages follow the same criteria. You reverted my edits without even caring for explaining why you were doing so. You are also reverting my edit in the infobox about Modigliani's place of birth - that edit should be uncontroversial, since Tuscany didn't exist as an administrative entity at that time and thus it is anachronistic to mention it. It looks like you are refusing to allow any edit to this page no matter what. -- Sansgloire (talk) 11:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note, this has already been discussed above (back in 2008). Coldcreation (talk) 11:00, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That discussion didn't get to anything. The most relevant point, i.e. "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability", from the Manual of Style/Biography has been ignored. Note how the notability of Modigliani clearly doesn't rest on the fact of being Jewish. -- Sansgloire (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * See also le petit Juif de Livourne in André Salmon, Modigliani: sa vie et son oeuvre, 1926. Coldcreation (talk) 11:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note too: religion is mentioned in the lead when "it is relevant to the subject's notability" per MOS:ETHNICITY. Clearly in this case, it is. Coldcreation (talk) 11:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It isn't clear at all, and you have not substantiated your claim in any way. Note how not even the opening of the Anne Frank's Wikipedia article states her nationality as being "German-Dutch Jewish" but, more correctly, it describes her as a "German-Dutch of Jewish heritage" - and in Frank's case her Jewish origins are incomparably more relevant to her notability. In Modigliani's case, it is enough to discuss his origins in the biographical sections of the article, as it is usually done on Wikipedia. -- Sansgloire (talk) 11:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * In the book about Modigliani's life and work that you mentioned the word "Juif" is literally used only once. How does it prove the point you are trying to make? -- Sansgloire (talk) 12:00, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Per the exhibition at the Jewish Museum in NYC: it is important information to convey regarding this particular and unique artist...the quote - Italian Sephardic Jew as pivotal to understanding his artistic output; matters...Modernist (talk) 12:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The information is conveyed in the article - nobody is arguing that it shouldn't be mentioned everywhere. The link you provided define Modigliani's nationality as Italian: "Modigliani Unmasked considers the celebrated artist Amedeo Modigliani (Italian, 1884-1920) [...]" which is the same thing I am proposing to do here. -- Sansgloire (talk) 12:13, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is another related link: Jewish Vistual Library and The Times of Israel...Modernist (talk) 12:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * If think this may be an edge case (I must say I was surprised about Anne Frank). How did his Jewish heritage inform his artistic output exactly? Is there a source that says it was "pivotal"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW most people know who Anne Frank was; without really needing any further explanation; however Modigliani is mostly known by his work, and the Italian Jewish line is educational and valuable...Modernist (talk) 12:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * See here: …"he chose to embrace his outsider status as both an Italian and, especially, a Sephardic Jew." (See also his "self-portrait in traditional Jewish attire"). Source: Mason Klein, An illuminating study of Amedeo Modigliani's early drawings and how they reflect the artist's conception of identity, Yale University Press, 2017. Coldcreation (talk) 12:28, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see why we leave out Anne Frank's Jewishness from the lead section just because "most people know who she was". But that's a topic for over there. How did Modigliani's Jewishness affect his paintings and sculptures? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This is also interesting: How Jewish was Modigliani? Houston Chronicle...Modernist (talk) 12:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * But before he's described as Jewish in the very first sentence of the article, would we not expect one or more of these scholarly/newspaper articles to be presented/discussed in the article main body somewhere? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course we should. Moreover, the articles that are being linked in this discussion all seem to came from Jewish cultural outlets, which emphasise Modigliani's Jewishness for obvious reasons. They also seem to state their case rather vaguely. Take this one: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/life/article/Religion-and-art-So-how-Jewish-was-Modigliani-12383386.php I don't want to be dismissive, but a one point the case is made that the Jewish-ness of Modigliani's art is evident in the way he sculpted... noses. Yes, for real. On the other hand, from the same article: [quote]"Samantha Baskind, co-author with Larry Silver of "Jewish Art: A Modern History," also has thought about Modigliani's Jewishness quite a bit."We just couldn't find very much evidence in the end, so we talked about him as a modern artist who was Jewish," she said.[/unquote]--Sansgloire (talk) 13:00, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Modigliani introduced himself as such: "My name is Modigliani. I am Jewish"... "The first painting he exhibited in Paris was The Jewess". Source, and here. And here. And here. And again here: 'Je suis Juif et je vous emmerde' [I am Jewish, and to hell with you]. And here. Coldcreation (talk) 13:07, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this is not the way to debate the issue. These half-sentences and misquoted sources of yours are not in any way useful in settling the matter. 1) The source you provided doesn't say that Modigliani used to introduce himself as a Jew (not that it would be too relevant even if that was the case). It is simply the quote of a conversation in which he informed a fellow artist of being Jewish, and by his own words Modigliani doesn't seem to give too much importance to the fact. 2) ""The first painting he exhibited in Paris was The Jewess]" This is completely irrelevant. Artist who are not Jewish made portraits of Jewish persons, what's even your point? 3) You are still failing to provide any evidence of how Modigliani being Jewish was so central to his art to the point that an encyclopedia should identify him as "Italian Jewish" in the opening of the article. The article itself doesn't mention anywhere how the Jewish identity of Modigliani was relevant to his work as an artist. Sansgloire (talk) 13:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, stop editing your posts after you have already published them. It gets impossible to have a debate if you keep adding sentences to your replies, and it is a lack of etiquette. Sansgloire (talk) 13:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * (e/c) That's how he always introduced himself, to everyone? I wonder who was able to check that. And his first painting hardly equates to his entire artistic output? Would we look at the titles other painter's first works to define them? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:23, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This is just an anecdote, irrelevant in establishing how Modigliani being Jewish was pivotal to his artistic production. For example, the book you quoted also states: "He was not a "Jewish" Jew at all, which is way most who knew him, themselves ordinarily north and central Europeans, said he had nothing Jewish about him"; "He had never thought of himself as a Jew in Italy", in the context of arguing that his affirmation of Jewish-ness was done in the face of anti-semitic attitudes he found in French.Sansgloire (talk) 13:35, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Look above. Irrelevant anecdote. Sansgloire (talk) 13:39, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant enough to have been published in the 1956 Modigliani catalogue raisonné. Coldcreation (talk) 13:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant to the matter we are debating, as I explained above. Albert Einstein openly professed being Jewish, but we don't introduce him as a "German-born Jewish physicist" in his Wikipedia article.Sansgloire (talk) 13:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, so how about: "Amedeo Clemente Modigliani ... was an Italian painter and sculptor who worked mainly in France and told people to fuck off"? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You nailed it sir. Coldcreation (talk) 13:47, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Now that looks good...Modernist (talk) 13:58, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * In my view, there may be here some new material to add on a subsection of the article, about M.'s attitudes toward the rampant Anti-Semitism he found, to his surprise, in Paris. But, in general, except for Jewish cultural sites trying to squeeze something specifically "Jewish" about M.'s art, there is not much anywhere that shows how his Jewishness was relevant to his original art. As such, the mention of his ethnic origins are more than enough as given in the biographical sections, as argued by Sansgloire, and the specific ethnic mention does not have to be on the opening sentence, in my view. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 13:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * warshy Thank you for your opinion. This comment is a perfect summary of the point I was trying to argue. Sansgloire (talk) 13:54, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree. When did "Jewish" first appear in this opening sentence of this article? Has it always been there? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it wasn't always there. I had found the edit which introduced it but I can't retrieve it right now. Anyway, it was added at some point and any successive attempt at removing it was reverted (with no explanation given). Sansgloire (talk) 14:05, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I know there is even a little WP app/piece of code that can find when a specific change was introduced to a page and by whom, but I've never tried to use it. But a little work on the history of the page should be able to locate it. warshy (¥¥) 14:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Coldcreation tells us this is the "stable" version. So perhaps he could tell us? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:14, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Being an old 'aficionado' of this page, as are both Coldcreation and Modernist, I went and found it. I was suprised to find how old (relatively) it is. It was introduced by an IP in 2016, in this diff. Again, it is much older that I'd have imagined, and it really has not bothered any of us up to this point... warshy (¥¥) 14:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, not really. It appears that a couple of times someone happened to be bothered by it, but their edits were always promptly reverted in order to upheld the "stable version", as it is currently being called (by the same user that was involved in maintaining the "Italian Jewish" phrasing in the past). It almost look like that this page has become the personal fief of a few users who don't feel like they have to explain why they undo edits. Sansgloire (talk) 14:47, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ooops, sorry. Actually it is the very next edit to the above. It is this diff. Hope I got it right now... warshy (¥¥) 14:34, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep. So, oddly enough, the date of the diff is 2/29/2016... warshy (¥¥) 14:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I found that yesterday, that is why I called the current version a stable version, but I suspect it was present circa 2008 in light of the discussion above. Coldcreation (talk) 14:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure enough. Diff. Coldcreation (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, let me state clearly, for the record. His Jewish Livornese ethnic origins are definitely important and relevant to his personality and his amazingly original work. And they are appropriately covered in the biographical section, I believe. But the ethnic mention does not "make" his original art, and it does not need to be mentioned in the opening sentence. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 14:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It was edited in September 2009, the edit was motivated with "no ethnicity in the lead section": https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amedeo_Modigliani&direction=next&oldid=314386014 Then that "stable version" was edited in 2016 to add the "Jewish" qualifier. Anyway, I saw you have reinstated the new "stable version" pending consensus in the talk page - how do you propose we move toward a consensus? Sansgloire (talk) 15:01, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Modigliani was a well-known personality in Paris (Montmartre and Montparnasse). There is no need to reduce the lead to references of his artwork alone. Coldcreation (talk) 15:06, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not following. What are you talking about now? Sansgloire (talk) 15:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * At the moment this is not about your opinion. Perhaps you should read this WP:Stick...Modernist (talk) 15:19, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I assume you are not going to follow your own advice. Sansgloire (talk) 15:21, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That was is response to warshy's: "But the ethnic mention does not "make" his original art." Warshy correctly point out however: "His Jewish Livornese ethnic origins are definitely important and relevant to his personality and his amazingly original work." This is all that is needed as far as notability (and it is reflected by multiple reliable sources) to be mentioned in the lead. Coldcreation (talk) 15:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * (My response was to Modernist, suggesting *I* shouldn't beat the dead horse) No, it isn't. warshy explicitly argues for the opposite of what you are saying (it shouldn't be mentioned in the lead according to him). Very bizarre of you, taking his opinion to buttress yours when the two don't agree. As I stated previously, you failed to provide sources that were relevant to what we are discussing - a couple of Jewish cultural outlets going out of their way to find something "Jewish" about Modigliani's art (which is what makes Modigliani notable) won't do. Sansgloire (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but I also wrote that it does not "need" to be in the opening sentence. And apparently, according to WP guidelines and established traditions it shouldn't. It never bothered me there, but if it bothers someone else, it can definitely be removed from the opening sentence. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 15:39, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe we need an RfC? I don't see any compromise emerging or likely. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The point is: Ethnicity is perfectly acceptable in the lead when it is relevant to the subject's notability (per MOS:CONTEXTBIO). Clearly, this is the case; not particularly in relation to his style as an artist (as opposed to that of Chagall, Soutine or Kisling), but in relation to his life in Paris, his social milieu and that of his entourage of the School of Paris and at places such as La Ruche. Coldcreation (talk) 15:47, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: you're not saying: "even if he had never produced any paintings or sculptures, he would have been notable for being Jewish", are you? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:51, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No. I'm saying he was notable for being Jewish in addition to being an artist. He could very well have been a poet, a philosopher or anything else. He did not have to represent Jews in his sculpture or painting (or poetry, or philosophy) to be a notable Jew. Coldcreation (talk) 15:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There's a lack of logic in your argument. Being a notable Jew has nothing to do with whether his ethnicity should be mentioned in the lead section. Again, Albert Einstein is no doubt a notable Jew, he is not introduced as such in the opening of his article. Sansgloire (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It certainly should be mentioned in the lead of the Einstein article, and it certainly was mentioned in the lead of the Einstein article until this edit on 2 March 2021. Coldcreation (talk) 16:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, it was only mentioned in a paragraph further down (which would have been ok, because that referred to a specific circumstance of his life in which Einstein's ethnicity/religion was certainly relevant). It wasn't included in the opening statement that introduces the figure (it didn't say "a German-born Jewish physicist"), which is what I am talking about. You are free to think that it should be mentioned in Einstein's case too, but Wikipedia guidelines explicitly take the opposite stance (i.e., ethnicity shouldn't be mentioned unless relevant for some reason). Sansgloire (talk) 16:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * That's hardly comparable. It's certainly not in the very first sentence and is by way of explanation for a another fact. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Then I think the article is currently sadly lacking the academic sources to support this view. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

RfC about how Amedeo Modigliani is introduced
Should the lead section of the article states Modigliani ethnicity/religion, and thus introduce him as a "Italian Jewish painter and sculptor", or should that be discussed in the biographical section, and only his nationality mentioned in the opening ("Italian painter and sculptor")? Sansgloire (talk) 16:05, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nationality only per Wikipedia guidelines, in the opening sentence. His Jewish ethnicity and background are definitely important and should be written about at length in the biographical sections. warshy (¥¥) 17:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nationality only in the opening sentence, but happy with compromise proposed here. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:23, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am happy with the proposed compromise also. warshy (¥¥) 18:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Nationality only in the opening sentence, in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. Sansgloire (talk) 17:33, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Jewish ethnicity and nationality in the lead, per MOS:ETHNICITY, as the former is relevant to the subject's notability. Coldcreation (talk) 17:47, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, but are you still insisting, as you have up to now, that it has to be in the opening sentence? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Nationality only This seems to be the case across the board on Wikipedia. --I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 18:01, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Not in the opening sentence, but in the lead. I assume here that is correct that his ethnicity is relevant to the subject's notability. The lead must reflect the content of the article. Dominic Mayers (talk) 18:11, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Jewish ethnicity and nationality in the lede because in this unique situation it works, is important and informative regarding this particular artist...Modernist (talk) 20:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you also clarify whether you think that needs to be in the opening sentence? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * IMO the opening sentence works...Modernist (talk) 21:02, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Jewish ethnicity and nationality - partly as that seems externally the norm, and partly to respect how he introduced himself as said in the article - as a Jewish artist (without nationality).  Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't say how he introduced himself? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * And what does "that seems externally the norm" mean exactly? What norm, where? The sentence does not really make sense to me... Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 15:08, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Nationality only and further supporting the compromise mentioned above by Markbassett. I do think that his Jewish ethnicity should be mentioned in the lead, but I'm not sure if it's significant enough to be in the first sentence. Most of the article focuses on his career. Coolcactus04 (talk) 01:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nationality only in the first sentence - As per the norm on English Wikipedia. I'm also happy with the solution mentioned by Martinevans123, where his Jewish identity is mentioned in second paragraph of the lede. PraiseVivec (talk) 16:48, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nationality only in the first sentence, per WP:ETHNICITY. I see nothing at all in the article to suggest that his ethnicity or religion affected his work as a painter and sculptor in any way, and those are the things he is known for. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. The article doesn't appear to say much about Modigliani's Jewishness, and says a lot about other aspects of his life. Given how short the lead currently is, how would including something in it regarding his Jewishness comply with WP:LEDE? Jayjg (talk) 21:34, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Nationality only in first paragraph, per discussion. Elsewhere seems fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:38, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Jewish ethnicity and nationality -aHis Judaism was obviously important to his art and the social context. His era is also not far removed from when Jews were generally legally defined as a nationality by most Europeans in any case: "Emancipation granted civic rights and meant that for the first time Jewish people were permitted to be both Jews and citizens of the nations they lived in (previously, countries designated Jewish people’s nationality as ‘Jew’)." Cynistrategus (talk) 14:58, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * How was his Judaism "obviously important to his art"? Was Jewish recognised as a "nationality" in Livorno in 1884? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:06, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what is the point that Cynistrategus is making. For what it's worth, under the Constitution of the Kingdom of Italy subjects had the same civil and political rights regardless of their religion. Sansgloire (talk) 12:29, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Nationality only, per MOS:ETHNICITY and MOS:LEDE. Jayjg (talk) 15:29, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. The discussion seems to be over. How should we move to close this RfC? Sansgloire (talk) 18:56, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is significant dissent, so the RfC should run at least 30 days, which is standard. Let someone uninvolved close it after that. Softlavender (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Vast amounts of this article are completely uncited
This is a Level 5 vital article, but vast amounts of it are completely uncited. I have therefore placed a template at the top of the article until such time as this is completely remedied. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 00:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Amedeo Modigliani


text:
Talk:Sim Earth

Could you explain what the sunflower world model is? -- Zoe

The "diasys" change color depending on the tempature.(dark for cold and bright for hot)--Kido

Could you add that information to the article, please? -- Zoe

title: Talk:Sim Earth