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Nashville sound

The Nashville sound is a subgenre of American country music that originated in the 1950s in Nashville, Tennessee. It replaced the dominance of the rough honky tonk music with "smooth strings and choruses", "sophisticated background vocals" and "smooth tempos" associated with traditional pop. It was an attempt "to revive country sales, which had been devastated by the rise of rock 'n' roll".

Origins
The Nashville sound was pioneered by staff at RCA Victor, Columbia Records and Decca Records in Nashville, Tennessee. RCA Victor manager, producer and musician Chet Atkins, and producers Steve Sholes, Owen Bradley and Bob Ferguson, and recording engineer Bill Porter invented the form by replacing elements of the popular honky tonk style (fiddles, steel guitar, nasal lead vocals) with "smooth" elements from 1950s pop music (string sections, background vocals, crooning lead vocals), and using "slick" production, and pop music structures. The producers relied on a small group of studio musicians known as the Nashville A-Team, whose quick adaptability and creative input made them vital to the hit-making process. The Anita Kerr Quartet was the main vocal backing group in the early 1960s. In 1960, Time reported that Nashville had "nosed out Hollywood as the nation's second biggest (after New York) record-producing center."

The term "Nashville sound" was first mentioned in an article about Jim Reeves in 1958 in the Music Reporter and again in 1960 in a Time article about Reeves. Other observers have identified several recordings that helped establish the early Nashville sound. The country historian Rich Kienzle identified that "Gone", a Ferlin Husky hit recorded in November 1956, as a possible precursor. The writer Colin Escott argued that Reeves' "Four Walls", recorded February 1957, as the "first 'Nashville sound' record", and Chet Atkins, the RCA Victor producer and guitarist most often credited with being the sound's primary artistic creator, pointed to his production of Don Gibson's "Oh Lonesome Me" later the same year.

In an essay published in Heartaches by the Number: Country Music's 500 Greatest Singles, David Cantwell argues that Elvis Presley's rock and roll recording of "Don't Be Cruel" in July 1956 was the record that sparked the beginning of the era now called the Nashville sound.

Regarding the Nashville sound, the record producer Owen Bradley stated "'Now we've cut out the fiddle and steel guitar and added choruses to country music. But it can't stop there. It always has to keep developing to keep fresh.'"

Bradley Studios, RCA Studio B and later RCA Studio A, located directly center of Music Row, were considered pivotal as well as essential locations to the development of the Nashville sound musical techniques. RCA Studio A specifically was designed and built to incorporate these techniques and was designed by RCA's sound engineer John E. Volkmann.

Countrypolitan
In the early 1960s, the Nashville sound began to be challenged by the rival Bakersfield sound on the country side and by the British Invasion on the pop side; compounding these problems were the sudden deaths, in separate airplane crashes, of Patsy Cline and Jim Reeves, two of the Nashville sound's biggest stars. Nashville's pop song structure became more pronounced, and it morphed into what was called Countrypolitan: a smoother sound typified through the use of lush string arrangements with a real orchestra and often background vocals provided by a choir. Countrypolitan was aimed straight at mainstream markets, and its music sold well through the later 1960s into the mid-1970s. Among the architects of this sound were producers Billy Sherrill (who was instrumental in shaping Tammy Wynette's early career) and Glenn Sutton. Artists who typified the countrypolitan sound initially included Wynette, Charlie Rich, and Charley Pride, along with Los Angeles–based singers Lynn Anderson and Glen Campbell. George Jones's style of the era successfully fused the countrypolitan sound with the honky-tonk style that had made him famous.

The Bakersfield sound, and later outlaw country, dominated country music among aficionados while countrypolitan reigned on the pop charts.

Upon being asked what the Nashville sound was, Chet Atkins put his hand into his pocket, shook his loose change, and said "That's what it is. It's the sound of money."

Country pop
By the late 1970s and 1980s, many pop music singers picked up the countrypolitan style and created what is known as country pop, the fusion of country music and pop music.

title: Nashville sound


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Esau

Esau is the elder son of Isaac in the Hebrew Bible. He is mentioned in the Book of Genesis and by the prophets Obadiah and Malachi. The Christian New Testament alludes to him in the Epistle to the Romans and in the Epistle to the Hebrews.

According to the Hebrew Bible, Esau is the progenitor of the Edomites and the elder brother of Jacob, the patriarch of the Israelites. Jacob and Esau were the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, and the grandsons of Abraham and Sarah. Of the twins, Esau was the first to be born with Jacob following, holding his heel. Isaac was sixty years old when the boys were born.

Esau, a "man of the field", became a hunter who had "rough" qualities that distinguished him from his twin brother. Among these qualities were his redness and noticeable hairiness. Jacob was a plain or simple man, depending on the translation of the Hebrew word tam (which also means "relatively perfect man"). Jacob's color was not mentioned. Throughout Genesis, Esau is frequently shown as being supplanted by his younger twin, Jacob (Israel).

According to the Muslim tradition, the prophet Yaqub, or Israel, was the favorite of his mother, and his twin brother Esau was the favorite of his father, prophet Ishaq, and he is mentioned in the "Story of Ya'qub" in Qisas al-Anbiya.

Birth
Genesis 25:25 narrates Esau's birth, "Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau." The meaning of the word esau itself is not entirely certain. Others have noted the similarity to عثا. The name Edom (אדום) is also attributed to Esau, meaning "red"; the same color is used to describe the color of his hair. Genesis parallels his redness to the "red lentil pottage" that he sold his birthright for. Esau became the progenitor of the Edomites in Mount Seir.

Birthright
In Genesis, Esau returned to his twin brother Jacob, famished from the fields. He begs Jacob to give him some "red pottage" (a play on his nickname, Edom.) This refers to his red hair. Jacob offers Esau a bowl of lentil stew (נְזִיד עֲדָשִׁ֔ים) in exchange for Esau's birthright (בְּכֹרָה), the right to be recognized as firstborn son with authority over the family), and Esau agrees. Thus Jacob acquires Esau's birthright. This is the origin of the English phrase "to sell one's birthright for a mess of pottage".

In, Jacob uses deception, motivated by his mother Rebekah, to lay claim to his blind father Isaac's blessing that was inherently due to the firstborn, Esau.

In, Rebekah is listening while Isaac speaks to his son Esau. When Esau goes to the field to hunt for venison to bring home, Rebekah says to her son Jacob, "Behold, I heard thy father speak to thy brother Esau, saying: 'Bring me venison and prepare a savory food, that I may eat, and bless thee before the Lord before my death. Rebekah then instructs Jacob in an elaborate deception through which Jacob pretends to be Esau, in order to steal from Esau his blessing from Isaac and his inheritance—which in theory Esau had already agreed to give to Jacob. Jacob follows through with the plan to steal his brother's birthright by bringing the meal his father Isaac requested and pretending to be Esau. Jacob pulled off his disguise by covering himself in hairy kid goat skin so that when his blind father went to touch him, his smooth skin did not give him away as an imposter of his hairy brother. Jacob successfully received his father Isaac's blessing. As a result, Jacob became the spiritual leader of the family after Isaac's death and the heir of the promises of Abraham.

When Esau learns of his brother's thievery, he is livid and begs his father to undo the blessing. Isaac responds to his eldest son's plea by saying that he only had one blessing to give and that he could not reverse the sacred blessing. Esau is furious and vows to kill Jacob. Once again Rebekah intervenes to save her younger son from being murdered by his elder twin brother, Esau.

Therefore, at Rebekah's urging, Jacob flees to a distant land, Paddan-aram (towards Harran) to work for his uncle Laban. Jacob does not immediately receive his father's inheritance after the impersonation aimed at taking it from Esau. Having fled for his life, Jacob has left the wealth of Isaac's flocks, land and tents in Esau's hands. Jacob is forced to sleep out on the open ground and then work for wages as a servant in Laban's household. Jacob, who had deceived and cheated his brother, is in turn deceived and cheated by his uncle. Jacob asks to marry Laban's daughter Rachel, whom he has met at the well, and Laban agrees, if Jacob will give him seven years of service. Jacob does so, but after the wedding finds that beneath the veil is not Rachel but Leah, Laban's elder daughter. He agrees to work another seven years and Jacob and Rachel are finally wed. However, despite Laban, Jacob eventually becomes so rich as to incite the envy of Laban and Laban's sons.

tells of Jacob's and Esau's eventual reconciliation. Jacob sends multiple waves of gifts to Esau as they approach each other, hoping that Esau will spare his life. Esau refuses the gifts, as he is now very wealthy and does not need them. Jacob bows down before Esau and insists on his receiving the gifts. Esau shows forgiveness in spite of this bitter conflict. He then asks Jacob to follow him to the South but Jacob decides later to move to the North.

Jacob's deception
Genesis Chapter 27 verse 16 of the King James Version Bible: "And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands and upon the smooth of his neck:" Verse 19: "And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me." Verse 22–23: "And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau. And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him."

Family
See: Wives of Esau.

describes Esau's marriage at the age of forty to two Canaanite women: Judith, the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. This arrangement grieved his parents. Upon seeing that his brother was blessed and that their father rejected Esau's union to Canaanites, Esau went to the house of his uncle Ishmael and married his cousin, Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael, and sister of Nebaioth. Esau's family is again revisited in, this passage names two Canaanite wives; Adhah, the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah, the daughter of Anah, daughter of Zibeon the Hivite, and a third: Bashemath, Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebaioth. Some scholars equate the three wives mentioned in Genesis 26 and 28 with those in Genesis 36. Casting his lot with the Ishmaelites, he was able to drive the Horites out of Mount Seir to settle in that region. According to some views, Esau is considered to be the progenitor not only of the Edomites but of the Kenizzites and the Amalekites as well.

Esau had five sons:
 * By Adah: Eliphaz
 * By Aholibamah: Jeush, Jaalam, Korah
 * By Basemath: Reuel

Minor prophet references
Esau was also known as Edom, the progenitor of the Edomites who were established to the south of the Israelites. They were an ancient enemy nation of Israel. The minor prophets, such as Obadiah, claim that the Edomites participated in the destruction of Solomon's Temple in the Siege of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. Exactly how the Edomites participated is not clear. Psalm 137 ("By the waters of Babylon") suggests merely that Edom had encouraged the Babylonians: The Lord is asked to "remember against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem, how they said 'raze it, raze it to its foundations'" in Psalm 137:7 However, the prophecy of Obadiah insists on the literal "violence done" by Esau "unto your brother Jacob" when the Edomites "entered the gate of my people..., looted his goods..., stood at the parting of the ways to cut off the fugitive,... delivered up his survivors on his day of distress".

By the intertestamental period, Edom had replaced Babylon as the nation that burned the Temple ("Thou hast also vowed to build thy temple, which the Edomites burned when Judah was laid waste by the Chaldees" ).

Jubilees
In the Book of Jubilees, Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died. However, after the death of Isaac, the sons of Esau convince their father to lead them, and hired mercenaries, against Jacob in order to kill Jacob and his family and seize their wealth (especially the portion of Isaac's wealth that Isaac had left to Jacob upon his death). "Then Ya'aqov bent his bow and sent forth the arrow and struck Esau, his brother on his right breast and slew him (Jubilees 38:2) . . . Ya'aqov buried his brother on the hill which is in Aduram, and he returned to his house (Jubilees 38:9b)."

New Testament references
depicts Esau as unspiritual for thoughtlessly throwing away his birthright. states "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated," based upon.

In Islamic tradition
According to Islamic scholars, the prophet Ayyub was the great grandson of Esau's son Reuel.

Rabbinic Jewish sources
The Targum Pseudo-Jonathan connects the name Esau to the Hebrew asah, stating, "because he was born fully completed, with hair of the head, beard, teeth, and molars." Other traditional sources connect the word with שָׁוְא.

Jewish commentaries have a negative view of Esau because of his rivalry with Jacob and likewise viewed the apparent reconciliation between the brothers described in Genesis 32–33 as insincere on Esau's part. The midrash says that during Rebecca's pregnancy, whenever she would pass a house of Torah study, Jacob would struggle to come out; whenever she would pass a house of idolatry, Esau would agitate to come out.

He is considered to be a rebellious son who kept a double life until he was fifteen when he sold his birthright to Jacob. According to the Talmud, the sale of the birthright took place immediately after Abraham died. The Talmudic dating would give both Esau and Jacob an age of fifteen at the time. The lentils Jacob was cooking were meant for his father Isaac because lentils are the traditional mourner's meal for Jews. On that day before returning, in a rage over the death of Abraham, Esau committed five sins; he raped a betrothed young woman, he committed murder (Nimrod), he denied God, he denied the resurrection of the dead, and he spurned his birthright.

Haman's lineage is given in the Targum Sheni as follows: "Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, son of Srach, son of Buza, son of Iphlotas, son of Dyosef, son of Dyosim, son of Prome, son of Ma'dei, son of Bla'akan, son of Intimros, son of Haridom, son of Sh'gar, son of Nigar, son of Farmashta, son of Vayezatha, (son of Agag, son of Sumkei,) son of Amalek, son of the concubine of Eliphaz, firstborn son of Esau".

According to Rashi, Isaac, when blessing Jacob in Esau's place, smelled the heavenly scent of Gan Eden (Paradise) when Jacob entered his room and, in contrast, perceived Gehenna opening beneath Esau when the latter entered the room, showing him that he had been deceived all along by Esau's show of piety.

In Jewish folklore, the Roman emperor Titus was a descendant of Esau.

Death
According to the Babylonian Talmud, Esau was killed by Hushim, son of Dan, son of Jacob, because Esau obstructed the burial of Jacob into the cave of Machpelah. When Jacob was brought to be buried in the cave, Esau prevented the burial, claiming he had the right to be buried in the cave; after some negotiation Naphtali was sent to Egypt to retrieve the document stating Esau sold his part in the cave to Jacob. Hushim (who was hard of hearing) did not understand what was going on, and why his grandfather was not being buried, so he asked for an explanation; after being given one he became angry and said: "Is my grandfather to lie there in contempt until Naphtali returns from the land of Egypt?" He then took a club and killed Esau, and Esau's head rolled into the cave. This means that the head of Esau is also buried in the cave.

Jewish sources state that Esau sold his right to be buried in the cave. According to Shemot Rabbah, Jacob gave all his possessions to acquire a tomb in the Cave of the Patriarchs. He put a large pile of gold and silver before Esau and asked, "My brother, do you prefer your portion of this cave, or all this gold and silver?" Esau's selling to Jacob his right to be buried in the Cave of the Patriarchs is also recorded in Sefer HaYashar.

Reputed grave on the West Bank
South of the Palestinian town of Sa'ir on the West Bank there is a tomb reputed to be that of Esau – El 'Ais in his Arab name.

The PEF's Survey of Western Palestine (SWP) wrote: "The tomb is in a chamber 37 feet east and west by 20 feet north and south, with a Mihrab on the south wall. The tomb is 12 feet long, 3 1/2 feet broad, 5 feet high, covered with a dark green cloth and a canopy above. An ostrich egg is hung near. North of the chamber is a vaulted room of equal size, and to the east is an open court with a fig-tree, and a second cenotaph rudely plastered, said to be that of Esau's slave. Rock-cut tombs exist south-west of this place."

The SWP stated this identification was false and that Esau's tomb was in the Biblical Mount Seir.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Esau


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Honky-tonk

A honky-tonk (also called honkatonk, honkey-tonk, honky tonk, or tonk) is both a bar that provides country music for the entertainment of its patrons and the style of music played in such establishments. It can also refer to the type of piano (tack piano) used to play such music. Bars of this kind are common in the South and Southwest United States. Many eminent country music artists, such as Jimmie Rodgers, Ernest Tubb, Lefty Frizzell, Hank Williams, Loretta Lynn, Patsy Cline, Johnny Horton, and Merle Haggard, began their careers as amateur musicians in honky-tonks.

The origin of the term "honky-tonk" is disputed, originally referring to bawdy variety shows in areas of the old West (Oklahoma, the Indian Territories and mostly Texas) and to the actual theaters showing them.

The first music genre to be commonly known as honky-tonk was a style of piano playing related to ragtime but emphasizing rhythm more than melody or harmony; the style evolved in response to an environment in which pianos were often poorly cared for, tending to be out of tune and having some nonfunctioning keys. This honky-tonk music was an important influence on the boogie-woogie piano style. Before World War II, the music industry began to refer to hillbilly music being played from Texas and Oklahoma to the West Coast as "honky-tonk" music. In the 1950s, honky-tonk entered its golden age, with the popularity of Winifred Atwell, Webb Pierce, Hank Locklin, Lefty Frizzell, Ray Price, Faron Young, George Jones, and Hank Williams.

Etymology
The origin of the term honky-tonk is unknown. The earliest known use in print is an article in the Peoria Journal dated June 28, 1874, stating, "The police spent a busy day today raiding the bagnios and honkytonks."

There are subsequent citations from 1890 in The Dallas Morning News, 1892 in the Galveston Daily News (Galveston, Texas) (which used the term to refer to an adult establishment in Fort Worth), and in 1894 in The Daily Ardmoreite in Oklahoma. Early uses of the term in print mostly appear along a corridor roughly coinciding with cattle drive trails extending from Dallas and Fort Worth, Texas, into south central Oklahoma, suggesting that the term may have been a localism spread by cowboys driving cattle to market. The sound of honky-tonk (or honk-a-tonk) and the types of places that were called honky-tonks suggests that the term may be an onomatopoeic reference to the loud, boisterous music and noise heard at these establishments.

One theory is that the "tonk" portion of the name may have come from the brand name of piano made by William Tonk & Bros., an American manufacturer of large upright pianos (established 1881), which made a piano with the decal "Ernest A. Tonk". The Tonk brothers, William and Max, established the Tonk Bros. Manufacturing Company in 1873, so such an etymology is possible, however, these pianos were not manufactured until 1889, at which point the term seems to have already been established.

An early source purporting to explain the derivation of the term (spelled honkatonk) was an article published in 1900 by the New York Sun and widely reprinted in other newspapers. The article, however, reads more like a humorous urban (or open range) legend or fable, so its veracity is questionable.

History
An article in the Los Angeles Times of July 28, 1929, with the headline Honky-Tonk' Origin Told", which was probably in response to the Sophie Tucker movie musical, Honky Tonk (1929), reads: "Do you know what a honky tonk is? Seafaring men of a few years ago knew very well, as the honky-tonks of San Francisco's Barbary Coast constituted perhaps the most vivid spots in their generally uneventful lives. The name originated on the Barbary Coast and was applied to the low "dives" which formed so great a part of this notorious district. In these establishments, which were often of enormous size, much liquor was dispensed at the tables which crowded the floor, and entertainment of doubtful quality was given on a stage at one end of the room. The honky tonk, as a matter of fact, was the predecessor of the present-day cabaret or night club, the principal differences being that the prices were lower and that the former establishment made no pretense of "class.""

In this context of the term’s meaning and its possible origin, an example from roughly the same period is the Harvey Oliver Brooks song “They Call Me Sister Honky-Tonk,” sung by Mae West in the 1933 film I’m No Angel.

Honky-tonks were rough establishments, providing country music in the Deep South and Southwest and serving alcoholic beverages to a working-class clientele. Some honky-tonks offered dancing to music played by pianists or small bands, and some were centers of prostitution. Katrina Hazzard-Gordon wrote that the honky-tonk was "the first urban manifestation of the jook", and that "the name itself became synonymous with a style of music. Related to the classic blues in tonal structure, honky-tonk has a tempo that is slightly stepped up. It is rhythmically suited for many African-American dance."

As Chris Smith and Charles McCarron wrote in their 1916 hit song "Down in Honky Tonk Town", "It's underneath the ground, where all the fun is found."

Origins of the establishment
Although the derivation of the term is unknown, honky tonk originally referred to bawdy variety shows in the West (Oklahoma and Indian Territories and Texas) and to the theaters housing them. The earliest mention of them in print refers to them as "variety theaters" and describe the entertainment as "variety shows". The theaters often had an attached gambling house and always a bar.

In recollections long after the frontiers closed, writers such as Wyatt Earp and E.C. Abbott referred to honky-tonks in the cowtowns of Kansas, Nebraska, and Montana in the 1870s and 1880s. Their recollections contain lurid accounts of the women and violence accompanying the shows. However, in contemporary accounts these were nearly always called hurdy-gurdy shows, possibly derived from the term hurdy-gurdy, which was sometimes mistakenly applied to a small, portable barrel organ that was frequently played by organ grinders and buskers.

As late as 1913, Col. Edwin Emerson, a former Rough Rider commander, hosted a honky-tonk party in New York City. The Rough Riders were recruited from the ranches of Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Indian Territories, so the term was still in popular use during the Spanish–American War.

Music

The honky-tonk sound has a full rhythm section playing a two-beat rhythm with a crisp backbeat. Steel guitar and fiddle are the dominant instruments.

The first music genre to be commonly known as honky-tonk music was a style of piano playing related to ragtime but emphasizing rhythm more than melody or harmony; the style evolved in response to an environment in which the pianos were often poorly cared for, tending to be out of tune and having some nonfunctioning keys.

Honky-tonk music influenced the boogie-woogie piano style, as indicated by Jelly Roll Morton's 1938 record "Honky Tonk Music" and Meade Lux Lewis's hit "Honky Tonk Train Blues." Lewis recorded the latter many times from 1927 into the 1950s, and the song was covered by many other musicians, including Oscar Peterson.

The twelve-bar blues instrumental "Honky Tonk" by the Bill Doggett Combo, with a sinuous saxophone line and driving, slow beat, was an early rock and roll hit. New Orleans native Fats Domino was another honky-tonk piano man, whose "Blueberry Hill" and "Walkin' to New Orleans" were hits on the popular music charts.

In the years before World War II, the music industry began to refer to honky-tonk music played from Texas and Oklahoma to the West Coast as hillbilly music. More recently, the term has come to refer to the primary sound in country music, developing in Nashville as Western swing became accepted there. Originally, it featured the guitar, fiddle, string bass, and steel guitar (imported from Hawaiian folk music). The vocals were originally rough and nasal, as exemplified by the singer-songwriters Floyd Tillman and Hank Williams, but later developed a clear and sharp sound, such as that of George Jones and Faron Young. Lyrics tended to focus on working-class life, with frequently tragic themes of lost love, adultery, loneliness, alcoholism, and self-pity.

Copyrighted and released in 1941, "Walking the Floor Over You", by Ernest Tubb, his sixth release for Decca, helped establish the honky-tonk style and Tubb as one of its foremost practitioners. Tubb, from Crisp, Texas, was a fan of Jimmie Rodgers and fused Western swing, which had been using electric guitars for years, with other "country" sounds.

He took the sound to Nashville, where he was the first musician to play electric guitar on Grand Ole Opry. In the 1950s, honky tonk entered its golden age, with the popularity of Webb Pierce, Hank Locklin, Lefty Frizzell, Faron Young, George Jones, and Hank Williams. In the mid- to late 1950s, rockabilly (which melded honky-tonk country with rhythm and blues) and the slick country music of the Nashville sound ended honky-tonk's initial period of dominance.

The Rolling Stones' number-one single and gold record "Honky Tonk Women" (1969) was based on the sound of 1940s honky-tonk artists like Hank Williams and referred to the reputation of honky-tonk bars as centres of prostitution. In the 1970s, outlaw country's brand of rough honky-tonk was represented by artists such as Gary Stewart, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, David Allan Coe, and Billy Joe Shaver.

title: Honky-tonk


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Talk:Abimelekh

Unnecessary duplicate article. See Abimelech. S.

title: Talk:Abimelekh


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Talk:Magna Graecia

Cities
I deleted the Sicilians cities' names (Syracuse, Akragas) since Sicily was not part of Magna Graecia. GC
 * "Sources differ on whether it included Sicily, as well as Apulia and Calabria." This basic question can't remain in the article; it needs to be addressed better than this, entirely in light of Strabo, Ptolemy and contemporary usage, not our modern opinions, whatever they may be. --Wetman 20:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I was going to bring this point up. I remember a tour guide stating that Magnia Graecia only referred to the Greek colonies on the mainland and that the colonies in Sicily were called something else. I also have guidebook for Paestum that also states this but unfortunately it does not mention the name for the Sicilian colonies. The book also mentions that the Greek name for Magna Graecia was Megale Hellás. --L.J. Brooks18:29, 07 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Magna Graecia also includes Sicily which also extensively colonized by Greeks. This is clearly stated by the article and is correct. Initialy the term 'Magna Greacia' refered only to south Italy but later (after 100 B.C.) it also included Sicily. Kassos (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please add the Greek in Greek script as well. Thanks! -- Kaihsu 18:01, 2004 Feb 15 (UTC)

The greeks did not always call themselves, Hellenes. For about 1000 years, they were Romaioi, Romans. -rome1453

 * "Com' is famous, the Latin spirit and that Greek from had always coexisted in the history of the Roman Empire in that magnificent civil osmosis that very we know. On purpose of the cultural identification with the same Empire it must notice that the Byzantine Greeks in other words defined same Greco-Roman. The same today present Romeo last name tutt' in the Calabria of root bizantina means, in Greek, "Roman"." In editing, I couldn't make sense of this. If there is material here, please edit it back into the article. --Wetman 20:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Greeks have called themselves Hellenes since ancient times and still do today. The fact that Romaioi was sometimes used to refer to Greeks in Byzantine times (East Roman empire) has no relevance to Magna Grecia and does not mean Greeks are Romans. Graikoi (where word Graecia comes from) was a prehistoric Hellenic tribe. Kassos (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

"Greater Greece"
I was under the impression that the western languages' names for Greece come from this region, not the other way around. The early Romans knew the Hellenic people best via their colonists in southern Italy. Thus, they referred to all Hellenes (even those in their native Hellas) by the name of the colony, hence the Latin Graecia, from whence we get Greece. In a similar way, IIRC, Turkish calls the Greeks a term derived from Ionia, the name of Greek colonies in western Anatolia. Then again, I could be completely mistaken. --Xyzzyva 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See also Names of the Greeks --Xyzzyva 04:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said in the other section above, Graikoi were a pre-historic name of a Hellenic Tribe in Greece. It is a Greek name and was used by Aristotle to refer to this Hellenic tribe. It was adopted by the Romans and thereon by the Europeans. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan because of the ancient Greek area 'IONIA' of Minor Asia which they call Yunan. Greece is also refered to as Yunanistan or Yunan by people in middle east.Kassos (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

What was the Native name of "Magna Græcia"?
Shouldn't the name that the Magna Græcia Greeks(and the Greeks who lived in Greece) be in the article?--71.164.131.224 (talk) 07:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Map of Magna Graecia
The map that is posted is wrong because it does not include Sicily (and also Syracuse is totally left out). Furthermore the Greek cities are not easily distinguished. I would suggest a big map with the Latinized Greek names and Greek letters in parenthesis with a big phrase "Magna Graecia" stretching from west Sicily to south east Italian mainland. The map you have posted only shows 1/3 of Magna Graecia.Kassos (talk) 22:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It also doesn't show Paestum and Cumae and the first Greek colony in Italy which was located on the island of Ischia (Pithekoussai). The map should be replaced.

Very short Article
This is (dissapointingly) a very short article. I cannot believe that the history of Magna Graecia can be put in one A4 page as you have done here. Six or seven centuries of ancient Hellenic history is summarized in one page? Magna Graecia was not called Magna because it was so heavily inhabited by Greeks. It was called Magna because the colonies there had prospered more than the metropolitan Greek cities in Greek mainland and had produced a civiliaztion in all aspects of life, letters and science. The Greek theaters and temples that survive in South Italy are witnesses of this civilization and are truly wonderful ancient Greek archaeological places. The Greek version of this article is no better. But at least it includes the names of over 60 (sixty) ancient Greek cities of Magna Graecia. One needs many books to write the history of ancient Magna Graecia and you have half a page. Where are the historians of wikipedia? Are they writing 20 pages about actors and 20 pages about pop musicians and have left half a page for Magna Graecia? and a map that is totaly wrong? Can someone answer me please? Kassos (talk) 23:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Justifies expansion
I agree that this article is far to skimpy for such an important topic. It is my view on the basis of having read Italian and S. Italian documents that Sicily must be included in Magna Gracia. The term was really never utterly precise, few such things are, but it referred to the ancient Greek cities ringing the coasts of the south of Italy as perceived by the Romans, and seen by the mainland Greeks as Italiotai and by Romans as Graeci. Because of the significance of this area to classical history, such as the wealth of these cities (Sybaris has lent its name to luxurious display to this day) and their impact on culture as well, we need only mention the school of Pythagoras in Crotone in Calabria and the Eleatic philosophers of Campania, and of course Archimedes and many rhetoricians (Giorgias eg) in Sicily. The area was also the site of major changes in wider Greek/Roman history and the Greekness of the area continued for centuries. It is still in evidence today, with stunning ruins, and the brilliant Bronzes of Riace in the Reggio Calabria museum, superb athletes in the games and the site of influence of Plato's thoughts about the Republic (Syracuse) etc. Dating can be quite precise Euboeans at 750BC at Pithecussae and Cumae; Spartans at Tarentum; Achaeans at Metapontum, Sybaris and Croton;etc These centres were themselves the bases for further expansion of Greek colonies into other parts of Italy, quite high up as far as Ancona in fact. Interaction and struggle with the Italic peoples should be mentioned. Also the effect this 'new world' had on Greek notions of participation and democracy is at least worthy of suggesting. Someone expert in this field should expand this article along these lines, indicating also that today Greek culture lives on in S. Italy, in language, some customs, architecture, and of course art and archaelogy. PRC 07 (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All you need are some scholarly sources backing you and it can be included. But you need those sources stating specifically that Sicilly is considered part of Magna Graecia. Dougweller (talk) 14:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Magna Graecia is a HISTORICAL region limited to the Ancient times: Middle Ages and the Modern times have nothing to do with it
"Magna Graecia" refers to a historical region made up of Greek cities on the coastline of Southern Italy. This historical region existed in the ancient times. There is not a "Medieval Magna Graecia" neither a "Modern Magna Graecia", so what's the point of sections talkin about these nonexisting entities? Where are the sources that have been used to identify a Magna Graecia existing after the ancient times? Byzantines and supposed Greek immigrants - the only subjects treated by the undue sections, have absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Greece and therefore with Magna Graecia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.221.0 (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The classical Latin pronunciation of Magna Graecia is ˌmɑŋnɑ ˈɡraɪːkiɑ. Λοῦκας (talk) 08:27, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Neapolis

 * Please update (as in the Italian version) the new archaeological data on Neapolis (which I remember is not a foundation but a re-foundation. Neapolis was founded in the 8th as Partenope and refounded as Neapolis in the 6th). Everything reported is out of date. Whenever I edit Mr. T8612, it deletes everything. Look at the Italian version, Hansel and Nielsen are still in 2004.82.53.75.170 (talk) 10:40, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 * The sources reported in the Italian version are the result of international conferences on Magna Graecia.82.53.75.170 (talk) 10:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hansen & Nielsen is the reference work on Greek city-states and remains the consensus. It lists city-states (poleis), not settlements, because there are hundreds of Greek settlements in Italy. Parthenope was only the harbour of Kyme and indeed quite old. However, Neapolis was founded near Parthenope as an independent city-state only c.470 BC. Archaeological data is meaningless in this regard. If the first date of occupation was considered, then the date of foundation for most cities listed would be much earlier, up to the Mycenaeans. T8612  (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Still all wrong and you prove that you are not informed. Neapolis, for reasons of space, was founded next to and not incorporated into Parthenope (Parthenope was narrow on a hill), and in any case Parthenope did not cease to exist with the foundation of Neapolis, but survived as an integral part of Neapolis (as a second peripheral pole) . Tito Livio speaks of two "Urbes" that formed a single CIVITAS and a single PEOPLE. Neapolis is simply the re-foundation, but it was born as Parthenope in the 8th, even if at the beginning it was only a port of Cuma. The reported book speaks generically of the city-states but does not dwell in detail and above all it is not updated archaeologically. The archaeological data whether you like it or not need to be updated on both Partenope and Neapolis, those listed are fifty years old. Not to mention that Neapolis was so called for the addition of new inhabitants and in reality it was not even the foundation of a POLIS but of a settlement that was added to an older one (Parthenope).82.53.75.170 (talk) 14:12, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Hansen & Nielsen are not the Bible, there are much more up-to-date and scrupulous sources. And above all, they do not publish news from fifty years ago, as in the case of Neapolis.82.53.75.170 (talk) 14:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

 * What is not clear about the fact that we need to update the dates of the foundations of Partenope and Neapolis? (page 3). Thank you.87.10.33.72 (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Once again, this is a list of the poleis=city states. Poleis were political entities, not just settlements. There were hundreds of Greek settlements in Magna Graecia and they can't all be listed here. The article you cited says the same thing: Harbour, not polis., which is consistent with the date given by Hansen & Nielsen (c.470 BC).  T8612  (talk) 13:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Is it possible to speak to someone who understands that the latest archaeological interventions show that Neapolis was founded in the last thirty years of the sixth century (maximum in the first years of the fifth and NOT in 470 BC)? And is it possible to speak to someone who understands that Partenope was not founded in the seventh century but in the eighth century? Is it possible to speak to someone who understands that those reported are old data? Thank you.87.10.33.72 (talk) 02:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Once again, Neapolis was not a foundation but a re-foundation. The examples you give about Mycenaean settlements that preceded many polis mean nothing. Neapolis is like Constantinople, which was once called Byzantium. They were the same city. I understood that Neapolis became a real polis in the 6th century (and not in 470 BC) but the fact remains that it was born as Partenope in the 8th century and not as Neapolis. Neapolis was not even a real city, but a large district founded next to Parthenope. Do you understand this? Oh my goodness.87.10.33.72 (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Help, incompetent user

 * "no, already explained several times why" (T8612). But what? What? All I did was update the data also reported by the University of Washington (not only in Italy). Can I speak to someone competent please? This user undoes the changes without any sense, thanks. Like the source (late 6th early V, which is different from 470 BC, and Parthenope 8th and not 7h) ... but you keep canceling (page 3)... unbelievable, without any sense. Is it possible to talk to someone else?.79.12.24.91 (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Neapolis developed continuously from the end of the sixth century BC to the end of the fifth century AD (PAGE 3, PAGE 3, PAGE 3, PAGE 3) 79.12.24.91 (talk) 09:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Pithekoussai
Pithekoussai was not a polis but an emporium. It shouldn't be listed.79.12.24.91 (talk) 15:49, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Archytas of Taras.jpg

MagnoGreci unofficial flag
Any chance to put the unofficial flag of Magna Grecia on this article on modern day section?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAPP7SpqUBM 2A02:587:B429:C1BC:730:979D:8A94:CDFA (talk) 19:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Ancient Greece
— Assignment last updated by Johnstoncl (talk) 23:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Magna Graecia