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Talk:Ptolemaic dynasty

misc
it would be helpful to have the reigning dates and birth/death dates of each Ptolemy...

OK, I guess this would be a sensible place to ask about these recent Cleopatra articles: What the heck is with the multi-millenium lifespans?!? -- John Owens 01:43 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

 * Even better, this might be a good place to ask Ponyf2t to stop making things up and putting them in the Wikipedia. They won't stay around: it's a waste of his time, and it's a waste of everyone else's. -- Someone else 01:27 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

phew. I've got this article & talk page synchronized on the SAME capitalization. ... -- Tarquin 20:41 Apr 6, 2003 (UTC)

Why, exactly, are the Ptolemaic consorts listed together with their husbands? That makes it very difficult to put dates to the list, which would be useful. Wouldn't it be a better idea to list the reigning monarch, and then list any consorts subordinately? That would allow for putting the dates of the various Ptolemies, which would be useful, and would make the page less cluttered and more organized. john 02:18 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

why Cleopatra VII is said to be the last pharaoh when there is an other after her in the list and still an other more in the french wiki ? Koxinga

 * Arsinoe IV never actually ruled, she just opposed Cleopatra, and Ptolemy XIV and Ptolemy XV were her co-rulers, though Cleo took most of the power. So, really, she was the last Pharaoh. Matjlav 16:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From Ptomeliac Dynasty, which I'm about to turn into a redir - these are maybe useful, maybe not:
 * Laodice I Queen of Syria
 * Laodice I Princess of Syria
 * Laodice III Princess of Pontus
 * Cleopatra I Princess of Syria
 * Nysa Princess of Syria
 * Laodice III Princess of Syria
 * Berenice Princess of Syria
 * Antiochis Princess of Syria
 * Stratonice Princess of Cappadocia
 * Cleopatra I Princess of Syria
 * Cleopatra II Princess of Egypt
 * Cleopatra Thea Princess of Egypt
 * Laodike Princess of Syria
 * Cleopatra III Eugrgetis Queen of Egypt
 * Cleopatra Tryphaena Princess of Egypt
 * Laodice Thea Philadelphos Princess of Syria
 * Cleopatra IV Princess of Egypt
 * Cleopatra Berenice Queen of Egypt
 * Cleopatra V Tryphaena Princess of Egypt
 * Tryphaena Cleopatra VI Princess of Egypt
 * Berenice IV Princess of Egypt
 * Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator Queen of Egypt
 * Cleopatra Selene Princess of Egypt
 * Arsinoe IV Princess of Egypt

Stan 02:14, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK, i'm just casually interested in all this... but is that family tree accurate? there seems to have been an awful lot of inbreeding going on here. didn't they realize it might not be a good idea after their kids started having 3 arms or whatever? :\
 * As with everything from ancient times, we don't have sufficient DNA samples to prove family relationships, but everybody at the time thought they were related, and certainly the later Ptolemies seem lacking in the brains department. It's also quite possible that some of the queens brought in fresh genetic material, heh-heh. :-) Stan 14:11, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Naming
It seems to me that it would be preferable to name articles on the Ptolemies as Ptolemy I Soter, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Ptolemy III Euergetes, and so forth, rather than the current names. Anyone agree? john k 14:09, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think so. We should have a title that has a little bit about who they were, and not their second names. If it's "Ptolemy I Soter," all the reader could know is that he was a king of some sort, probably. If it's Ptolemy I of Egypt, the reader knows he was probably a King of Egypt. Matjlav 16:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * So what? Ancient rulers do not have to have "of Placename" in their article titles, and these monarchs are generally known by their later names. At any rate, anybody who knows anything about the name "Ptolemy" will recognize that a Ptolemy with a number after his name was "probably a King of Egypt."  Those who don't will likely not be looking for anything about Ptolemies, anyway. john k 23:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Choice of family trees
I think I should list some of the reasons I objected to Matjlav’s genealogy.

1) Since Matjlav removed the word “Simplified” from the section heading, I concluded that this tree is meant to be comprehensive. It is anything but.  Just to take the most obvious point, many children of Ptolemy I, II, III, VI, VIII and IX are omitted, as are the children of Berenice I by her first husband.

2) It is completely unclear why some individuals are included and others are not. Why an ancestry for Eurydice and Berenice I but not for Arsinoe I or Cleopatra I?  How can you omit Ptolemy the Son, coregent for 8 years?

3) Matjlav’s tree is riddled with errors. Not controversial reconstructions, flat out errors.  Berenice I was the daughter of Magas not Lagus (this fiction was conclusively knocked on the head by Grace Macurdy in 1932!).  Berenice II was not the daughter of Arsinoe I and Ptolemy II, she was the daughter of Magas of Cyrene and Apama.  Ptolemy Memphites (not “Memphitis”) was the son of Cleopatra II not Cleopatra III.  Ptolemy XI was not the biological son of Berenice III (this was always doubtful, the papyrus that was once thought to say so has been reexamined and shown to be naming Ptolemy X and his “sister” Berenice III).  Cleopatra V may have been the sister of Ptolemy XII or his niece, or his cousin, but she certainly wasn’t his aunt.  And, while the point may still be regarded as marginally controversial, I don’t know of any modern scholar who has actually studied the issue who regards “Cleopatra VI” as having existed.

Now, the tree I’ve restored isn’t perfect. It has spelling errors (“Ptolomy” the Son) and numbering errors (Ptolemy “XIV” and “XV” for Cleopatra’s bothers). Neither tree differentiates what is known from what is conjectured and controversial. I’m not sure that I would include Antony’s children or the paternity of Cleopatra I, but I would definitely show the marriage of Arsinoe II and Ptolemy II. But this tree doesn’t imply that it is comprehensive, it includes all the rulers and coregents of Egypt (except Ptolemy Eupator, who is omitted in both trees, and is certainly the least important), it doesn’t include obscurities like the ancestries of Eurydice and Berenice, and it doesn’t have any actual genealogical errors. Its deficiencies are comparatively minor. Until I or someone with access to the source file gets around to fixing it, it is clearly the better starting point. -- --Chris Bennett 20:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

New section "other members of the dynasty"
To Carcharoth: It's not clear why this section is a good idea, since you haven't actually said anything about any of these people.

If it's just meant to be a set of cross-links, what are the selection criteria? E.g. why Apion but not Magas, also king of Cyrene, or Ptolemy, king of Cyprus? Why Keraunos king of Macedon but not his brother Meleager, also king of Macedon? Why not Ptolemy the Son? Why Ptolemy Philadephus but not Alexander Helios or Cleopatra Selene?

--Chris Bennett 02:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Oops. That section was a hangover from when I was looking for somewhere to put the list I had made of other members of the Ptolemaic dynasty who were not rulers but were named Ptolemy. It kind of spun off from the Ptolemy (disambiguation) thing before the Ptolemy (name) article was created. The criteria were (a) named Ptolemy and (b) not a ruler of Egypt. You are absolutely correct that the section should either be dropped as not very relevant, or expanded to include the other (known) members of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Personally, I think it would be nice to have a section about what the other, non-ruling, members of the dynasty got up to in and outside Egypt. It gives the dynasty a bit of context within the area and history of the times. Carcharoth 14:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Lagids
I noted that Lagid and Lagids redirect to this page. I am puzzled with the origin of the name Lagid to refer to this dinasty? -- Pichote 11:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, Lagids, dinasty founded by general of Alexander the Great, Ptolemy, son of Lagus. -- Pichote 11:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Political designation instead of cultural designation
First of all Lagides were Macedonians (see literature below). In addition, I think some corrections that imply the Macedonian nature of the Macedonian states, from early times and down to the fall of the last Macedonian state, are needed on this page (addition of “Macedonian” at appropriate place), designating the states not only as Hellenistic but also as “Macedonian”. Some discussions on this theme, sometimes with certainly unpleasant political bias, have been carried out previously. However, these changes are supported by the latest academic literature and by the most respected authorities on the subject. Retaining “Macedonian” to designate the political nature of the states is necessary also to avoid transition from cultural, which goes far beyond political organisation and introduces a risk of neglecting far more important political characteristics of the communities and states which were of importance for the geopolitical and historical developments during Hellenistic period all over territory of the Alexander’s empire.

These, now classical works, all show that Macedonians distinguished themselves from the Greeks (Hellenes), had significantly different language (which may or may not be from the Greek family of languages – this is still disputed), and insisted very strongly on these differences. Also these academic works show, what is of particular relevance here, that the political state organisation, particularly from Philip onwards, was “Macedonian” and was preserved throughout the diadochi reign in all three late successor states or empires. In addition, the Argeid dynasty being of Macedonian (or Greek) origin – what is also disputed, was strongly attached to their Macedonian people to often express substantial doses of nationalism, probably as a result of obvious Greek repudiation of all what was barbarous, i.e. the nations that did not speak Greek. Culturally, Macedonia was early Hellenised, at least its aristocracy, but this was kept separate from the political and to great extent administrative organisation of the state or succession states. The dynasties were closed toward external world, although hetero-national polygamy was a practice, but the successions was carefully preserved between the members of the Macedonian families (sometimes to the unprecedented extremes – Ptolemy’s intermarried even with the 1st degree relatives). I give the summary of the relevant literature: NGL Hammond and FW Walbank: A History of Macedonia, volume III, particularly chapter V (The legacy of Alexander – what concerns the political Macedonian nature of the diadochi kingdoms) (1988); NGL Hammond: The Macedonian State (also implying Macedonian nature of the diadochi kingdoms), particularly the chapter X (1998); EN Borza: In the Shadow of Olympus - The Emergence  of Macedon, particularly chapter 10, what concerns the nature of the Philip’s and Alexander’s reign (1990); EN Borza: Makedonika, particularly chapter  8 (on military conservative and nationalist Macedonian army); EN Borza: Before Alexander: Constructing Early Macedonia, chapter II (about Macedonian nationalism). More popular is RL Fox: The Classical World, an Epic History of Greece and Rome, particularly chapter 22, Alexander early successors (2006).Draganparis (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

 * This article is about the Ptolemaic dynasty, not about the Ptolemaic state or about Hellenistic kingdoms. Whether one interprets the term "Macedonian" as geographic, cultural or ethnic, it is entirely correct to describe the dynasty as being Macedonian, because that is what they called themselves.  However, I think this is not the place to define exactly what the term means, because the Ptolemies never defined it, and because it means different things to different readers.  As you know, the exact interpretation of the term "Macedonian" is associated with a very active modern political controversy.  Many of the issues you discuss are related to that controversy.  It would be more appropriate to raise them in a general context, for example the article Hellenistic civilization might reasonably include a discussion as to what extent the culture of these states should be regarded as Greek, Macedonian, or whether the question is even meaningful. --Chris Bennett (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree with all what you wrote. History pages must inevitably be kept away from the present day political disputes. Since all sides that are involved operate with the concepts and their connotations that are often known only to them, these people feel offended often by some expressions that are neutral for an unbiased reader. So, it is not so easy. I am unfortunately very busy and can not carry your message further, but if you can, you have all my support.Draganparis (talk) 15:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Draganparis, the culture of the Hellenistic states was what we now identify as Ancient Greek. There's no source where Macedonians distinguished themselves from the Greeks but the contrary. Your "barbarous" labeling could rather be appointed to the political stance of the Athenian society and not to the greater group of Hellenic people (Macedonians did participate in the Olympics). In order to focus in the Diadochoi states and their Hellenic character, remember how Plutarch described the founding of Alexandria "a large and populous Greek city which should bear his name". The same goes for the rest of the states were the Macedonian rulers are labeled as Yauna, Yona, Yawan which in all cases means "Greek". As for the language, you wrongly quoted Hammond, who repeatedly insisted that ancient Macedonian was a northern Greek dialect. Judging from what i've read from Borza, i doubt he is an expert in anything else than Attic Greek (if even that). Furthermore, he has been silent for several years, while other scholars have released various publications with new data. The language part is a job of linguists and the hellenic classification has a large part of that pie. Whether Macedonians spoke something else than Greek or not, it does not change the fact that in the Hellenistic years they are seen as a part of the Greek world in terms of culture, religion and language. Therefore Macedonian Greek or Greek is the most appropriate term until any political dispute is over. fkitselis (talk) 01:39, 27 July 2009 (GMT)

32nd or 34th? why?
The intro now contains the sentences "They were the 32nd and last dynasty of ancient Egypt. The Ptolemaic dynasty is sometimes called the Thirty-fourth dynasty of Egypt too." If the "34th" designation is to be mentioned here, it would helpful to know why. --Haruo (talk) 18:52, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't quite figure it out. The system of numbering dynasties was developed by Manetho in the Thirtieth Dynasty, so it isn't often applied to later dynasties. But it looks like the second period of Achamenid rule, following the Thirtieth Dynasty, is sometimes called the Thirty-first Dynasty. One might count the Ptolemies as the Thirty-second Dynasty, but I don't know if any reliable sources do so. They're either called "the Ptolemaic dynasty" or "the Ptolemies" or "the Lagides". And counting them as number 32 instead of 33 would ignore the Argead Dynasty (Alexander the Great, his son Alexander IV of Macedon, and Philip III Arrhidaeus), which ruled briefly but probably as long as some of the minor numbered dynasties. I can't see any reason for counting the Ptolemies as number 34. Unless sources address the issue, I think attempts to give the Ptolemies a number should be left out of the article. A. Parrot (talk) 19:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Under the circumstances I agree that leaving the numbering of dynasties altogether out makes more sense. --Haruo (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The text now says "Thirty-third dynasty of Egypt". I don't know if this is accurate or contentious. However, the quoted reference

does not use this term. Borsigsteg (talk) 09:20, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I've removed that text. A. Parrot (talk) 14:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Their language?
Do we know what languages did they spoke? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jotaro97 (talk • contribs) 13:32, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Although the Ptolemaic dynasty often adopted ancient Egyptian regalia, its members generally spoke Greek as a first language. However, Cleopatra was bilingual in Greek and Egyptian, and she presented herself as the embodiment of the goddess Isis. Soupforone (talk) 03:23, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! Wish you gave a source though, but since it sounds reasonable, I'll believe you until I find something contradictory. Jotaro97 (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, it is known from the discovery of the Rosetta Stone that the Ptolemaic dynasty used both the Greek and Egyptian languages. The ancient tablet contains three orthographies: the top is in Egyptian hieroglyphs, the center is in the Egyptian demotic cursive, and the bottom is in the Greek alphabet. It is actually this trilingual stone that helped Champollion decipher the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. Soupforone (talk) 03:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The last ruler.
Ptolemy XV (last ruler of Ptolemic Egypt) & Cleopatra VIII (ruler of Cyrenaica & Libya) can 'both' be listed. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that Ptolemy XV reigned jointly with his mother, while Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony, upon their deaths, marked the end of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Cleopatra VIII, the ruler of Cyrenaica & Libya, was the daughter of Cleopatra VII, and she did NOT rule in Egypt - where the other Ptolemies had their seat of government, but in Cyrenaica and in Libya.Davidbena (talk) 12:55, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Second gallery
I don't think this is a good idea. There is already a gallery in the article. Adding a second gallery means another editor will most likely come in here later on and just delete it on the grounds that there are one too many galleries. I think it was better before, when the images were just lined up to the right of the text. Pericles of Athens Talk 22:06, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Alright, I will leave it the way it was before. Векочел (talk) 23:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for understanding! The new gallery you made in the article for Berenice II of Egypt is fine, though, because it is the only gallery in the article. Pericles of Athens  Talk 23:56, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Ptolemaic Dynasty as catalogued by Lepsius
Below is all of the Ptolemaic Dynasty plates from Denkmäler aus Ägypten und Äthiopien. Might be helpful if anyone was to add illustrations to this page. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC) Onceinawhile (talk) 10:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ptolemaic dynasty


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Waki Yamato

Waki Yamato (大和 和紀) is a Japanese manga artist. She debuted in 1966 with the short story Dorobō Tenshi.

Since her debut, Yamato steadily created and published a variety of works in the genre of shōjo manga. Among her early time works, Mon Cherie CoCo, 1971, was adapted into an anime television series, and her work, Haikara-san ga Tōru, 1975 to 1977, was very successful, winning the 1st Kodansha Manga Award for shōjo in 1977. It was also made into a musical for the Takarazuka Revue, an anime series (which reached an international audience through TV broadcasts in Italy and France), and a live-action movie. Through these early works, she established her position as one of the most popular manga artists.

Works
After the success of Haikara-san ga Tōru, she continued to create many manga, including the comedy Aramis '78 (series), Yokohama Monogatari (The Story of Yokohama), and N. Y. Komachi (The Belle of New York). The latter two were historical manga, set during the Meiji period.

The heroines of these stories were active girls who traveled overseas. Yamato's early work Reidii Mitsuko (Lady Mitsuko), 1976, was based on the true story of Mitsuko Aoyama, who was the mother of Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi.

Similarly, in Yokohama Monogatari, Uno visits California, marries her Japanese lover there and returns to Yokohama, while Mariko visits London to meet her Japanese husband. In N. Y. Komachi tomboy Shino travels to New York and becomes a camerawoman. At the end she settles in America with her husband Danny.

Asaki Yume Mishi
Yamato's major work is Asaki Yume Mishi. Yamato spent 13 years (1980–93) completing this famous long work, based on Murasaki Shikibu's The Tale of Genji. Yamato studied the historical details of the Heian period. But she made radical changes to the characters and plot, to fit contemporary mores. Yet her work remains one of the best visualizations of the Heian era.

List of works

 * Dorobou Tenshi, (どろぼう天使, Thief Angel) debut short work, 1966
 * Mon Cheri CoCo, (モンシェリCoCo) 1971
 * Adapted into an anime television series in 1972
 * Redii Mitsuko, (レディーミツコ, Lady Mitsuko ). 1975–1976
 * Haikara-san ga Tōru, (はいからさんが通る, "The Modern Girl Passes By") 1975–1977
 * Adapted into an anime television series in 1978-1979 and a live-action movie in 1987
 * Killa, (Killa) 1977–1978
 * Ten no Hate, Chi no Kagiri, (天の果て地の限り) 1978
 * Aramis ’78, (アラミス’78) 1978–1984
 * Kigen 2600 nen no Playball, (紀元2600年のプレイボール) 1979–1980
 * Gekkou-ju, (月光樹, Moonlight Shining Tree) 1980
 * Yokohama Monogatari, (ヨコハマ物語, The Story of Yokohama) 1981–1983
 * N. Y. Komachi, (NY小町, The Belle of New York) 1985–1988
 * Asaki Yume Mishi, (あさきゆめみし, Asakiyunemishi, based on Murasaki Shikibu's The Tale of Genji) 1980–1993
 * Hi-heel Cop, (ハイヒールCOP) 1989–1994
 * Tenshi no Kajitsu, (天使の果実, Fruit of the Angel, based on novel by Shizuka Ijuuin) 1993–1994
 * Niji no Natascha, (虹のナターシャ, Natascha of Rainbow, based on novel by Mariko Hayashi) 1995–1997
 * Nishimuku Samurai, (にしむく士, Samurai facing to the West) 1997
 * Baby-sitter Gin!, (ベビーシッター・ギン!) 1997
 * Kurenai Niwofu, (紅匂ふ)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Waki Yamato


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Cymbal alloys

Cymbals are made from four main alloys, all of them copper-based. These are: bell bronze, malleable bronze, brass, and nickel silver.

Bell bronze
Bell bronze, also known as bell metal, is the traditional alloy used for fine cymbals, many gongs, and, as the name suggests, bells. It is normally stated to be one part tin to four parts copper, that is 20% tin, and this is still the most common formula, but there has always been some variation. Larger and smaller bells are cast with differing amounts of tin, and some bell, gong, and cymbal makers use small but significant amounts of other elements, notably silver, gold, and phosphorus. Bell bronze is a two-phase alloy, meaning some of the tin is not dissolved in the copper grains but exists between them. This makes the metal harder and more brittle than a single-phase alloy, and also affects the way the metal responds to hardening by hammering and lathing, and greatly restricts the use of mechanised techniques of manufacture. Major orchestras generally use bell-bronze cymbals, which are capable of a greater dynamic range than any others. They are also generally the preferred cymbals of drum kit players.

Signature Bronze Alloys
In 1989 Paiste released professional cymbal series composed of sheet metal bronze with about 15% tin. Though the manufacturing requires the metal to be rolled hot at certain stages, it is not tempered like traditional B20 cymbals but annealed. Using this alloy allows for greater consistency between blanks compared to traditional cymbal alloy, and is more applicable to Paiste's 2002 production methods. Examples include Paiste Signatures, Traditionals and Dark Energy. Paiste calls this Signature Bronze or Sound Formula. For a time, Paiste produced no bell metal cymbals, but now produces high-end cymbals of both this alloy and bell bronze. Since then, other manufactures followed the lead and implemented lines of high tin sheet metal alloy. Zildjian Project 391 series employed Paiste alloy explicitly, however many companies (Zildjian included) produce cymbals with B12 (Such as Zildjian ZHT, now S series) and B10 alloys. Meinl cymbals are well known for employing both alloys.

There is some evidence that a similar sheet alloy was used by the Hammerax company (though with added iron and nickel).

Malleable bronze
Malleable bronze is an alloy of tin and copper containing typically 8% tin. It is a single-phase alloy and can be cold rolled into sheets, unlike bell bronze. It is readily available as commercial sheet metal in many grades and thicknesses.

Cymbal bronzes containing 8% tin are most normally called B8 alloy. Paiste refer to their 8% tin bronze as 2002 alloy.

From the mid 20th century there were attempts to make top-quality cymbals from malleable bronze, originally for reasons of economy. As the Paiste patent referred to above says:

''Less than three decades ago experiments were carried out for economical considerations with a commercial common bronze sheet or plating containing 8% tin by weight. The result was that the old bronze rule was confirmed and proven to be correct. One had to realize that with careful working and processing of the cymbal it was possible to achieve considerable qualitative results with the bronze sheet or plating containing 8% by weight tin, but these results could never approach the results obtained with traditional cymbals having a tin content of 20% by weight.''

Not everyone agrees with this unfavourable assessment, written well after the development of the very successful Paiste 2002 series. In particular, top-line malleable bronze cymbals proved exceptionally suitable for the louder music then developing. The best of them now approach, and some claim equal, the best bell bronze cymbals in quality.

Examples of malleable bronze cymbals include: Harpy H, Meinl One of a Kind, Meinl Custom and Amun, Meinl Lightning and Raker, Meinl Classics and some Generation X, Meinl Trooper and Cadet, Orion Solo Pro and Solo Pro Master, Orion Viziuss, Paiste 2002 and Giant Beat, Paiste 802 and Alpha, Paiste 502 and some Exotic Percussion, Pearl Pro, Meinl MCS, Sabian B8 and B8 Pro, Sabian Pro, Sabian Pro Sonix, Sabian APX, Sabian B8X, Soultone Custom Brilliant, Soultone Extreme, Soultone Natural, Soultone Vintage, Soultone Vintage OldSchool 1964, Soultone Gospel, UFIP Tiger, UFIP Supernova, Zildjian I Series, ZBT, ZXT, ZHT, and the sonic "XXX" series by Krash Cymbalz, a B10 alloy line for the heavy-handed, aggressive drummer.

Brass
Some of the finest traditional gongs and china-type cymbals and nearly all zills are made from brass. However, it is not widely used in cymbals. Brass cymbals are inexpensive beginners' cymbals, not meant to last long; the rigidity of brass yields cymbals harsh in sound and very prone to cracks at the bell hole and the border.

Many of the "show" cymbals provided by many drum kit manufacturers for use in shop window displays are also made from brass. These are typically very poor in tone, some even being disks of untreated metal and unplayable despite the reputable brand name they may bear.

The brass for cymbals is about 38% zinc in copper, which is very easily worked, readily available as sheet metal, and easily the cheapest metal stock normally used for cymbals. The tone of brass cymbals tends to be warm but dull compared to any sort of tin bronze, and very few drummers exploit it.

Examples of brass cymbals include: Harpy B, Meinl Marathon M38, Meinl Meteor, Meinl HCS, Orion Twister, Paiste 101, Paiste 302 and some Exotic Percussion, Pearl, Royal, Twister Series by Orion, Solar and Sbr by Sabian, Soultone Intro, UFIP M8, Planet Z by Zildjian. Nearly all zils of all makes are also made out of brass.

Nickel silver
Nickel silver as used in cymbal making is an alloy of copper and nickel, and an alloy with about 12% nickel is used for some beginners' cymbals. A very few specialised high-quality cymbals are also made from nickel silver, as are some top-quality gongs tending to the more modern and exotic sounds.

Some maintain that the term nickel silver should only be used for alloys containing an appreciable content of zinc, and would call this cymbal alloy nickel bronze instead, but the use of the term nickel silver for all cymbal bronzes with nickel as the main alloying metal is well established.

Nickel silver is malleable and available as commercial sheet metal, and gives a bright tone but without the shimmer and sensitivity of tin bronzes. In the early to mid 20th century nickel alloy cymbals were far more widely produced and used, and so many older recordings were probably made using cymbals with a significant nickel content.

Evelyn Glennie is particularly noted for exploiting the tones of nickel silver cymbals.

Examples of nickel silver cymbals include: Some Foremost, Meinl Streamer and Marathon N12, Paiste 402, the original 1970s Paiste 101 (current 101s are Brass) and some Exotic Percussion, Sabian Signature Glennies Garbage, and some Zilco.

Other metals
Cymbals have also been made from silicon and aluminum bronzes but these alloys have not become generally popular.

Meinl FX9 is an alloy of 69% copper, 15% manganese, 15% zinc and 1% aluminium, and was used for the new Meinl Generation X line released in 2003. Previous Generation X models were made from malleable bronze. FX9 is described by Meinl as not being a bronze at all, and was previously described by their sales literature as containing tin rather than zinc. There is a minority view that the word "bronze" should be reserved for two-phase alloys, which may be their usage here.

Unlike cymbals, some gongs are made from several different metals fused together. Many different metals have been used. Parts of some traditional gongs, notably the bosses of some "nipple" gongs, are made from iron based alloys.

A few independent cymbal makers have also used stainless steel and titanium to produce cymbals and gongs.

title: Cymbal alloys


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André Marie Jean Jacques Dupin

André Marie Jean Jacques Dupin (1 February 1783 – 8 November 1865), commonly called Dupin the Elder, was a French advocate, president of the chamber of deputies and of the Legislative Assembly.

Dupin was born at Varzy, in the Nièvre département, in France. He was educated by his father, who was a lawyer of eminence, and at an early age he became principal clerk of an attorney at Paris. On the establishment of the Académie de Legislation he entered it as pupil from Nièvre. In 1800 he was made advocate, and in 1802, when the schools of law were opened, he received successively the degrees of licentiate and doctor from the new faculty. He was in 1810 an unsuccessful candidate for the chair of law at Paris, and in 1811 he also failed to obtain the office of advocate-general at the Court of Cassation. About this time he was added to the commission charged with the classification of the laws of the empire, and, after the interruption caused by the events of 1814 and 1815, was charged with the sole care of that great work. In May 1815 he entered the Chamber of Representatives and at once took an active part in the debates as a member of the Liberal Opposition, and strenuously opposed the election of the son of Napoleon as emperor after his father's abdication.

At the election after the second restoration Dupin was not reelected. He defended with great intrepidity the principal political victims of the reaction, among others, in conjunction with Pierre-Nicolas Berryer, Marshal Ney; and in October 1815 boldly published a tractate entitled Libre Defense des accusés. In 1827, he was elected a member of the Chamber of Deputies and in 1830 he voted the address of the 221, and on 28 February he was in the streets exhorting the citizens to resistance. At the end of 1832, he became president of the chamber, which office he held successively for eight years. After the 1848 abdication of Louis Philippe, Dupin introduced the young Count of Paris into the chamber, and proposed him as king with his mother as regent.

This attempt failed, but Dupin submitted to circumstances, and, retaining the office of procureur général, his first act was to decide that justice should henceforth be rendered to the "name of the French people." In 1849, he was elected a member of the Assembly, and became president of the principal committee—that on legislation. After the 1851 coup d'état, he still retained his office of procureur général, and did not resign it until effect was given to the decrees confiscating the property of the house of Orléans. In 1857, he was offered his old office by emperor Napoleon III, and accepted it, explaining his acceptance in a discourse, a sentence of which may be employed to describe his whole political career. "I have always", he said, "belonged to France and never to parties."

Among Dupin's works, which are numerous, may be mentioned Principia Juris Civilis, 5 vols. (1806); Mémoires et plaidoyers de 1800 au 1ier janvier 1830, in 20 vols.; and Mémoires ou souvenirs du barreau, in 4 vols. (1855–1857).

His brother, Pierre Charles François Dupin, was a mathematician.

title: André Marie Jean Jacques Dupin