text:
Talk:Green party

Renaming Pro-War section to something more neutral
I've read over the debates around the history of the pro-war paragraph, and how & why it was merged into this page, and I feel that it should be given a more neutral title, as Pro-War seems to be non-NPOV.

I don't have a problem with the content or the politics of the paragraph, just the title. As the greens gain more and more political power, a lot of hard choices have to be made, and how to create/balance security with peace is a dichotomy, and I beleive that that is the real conclusion of the article and the paragraph.

Creating security through peace is a long term concept, perhaps not suited to dealing with existing armed conflicts, but better suited to averting it in the future. Balancing security with peace is still aiming for that long term peace, but taking part in armed conflict to assist that peace and/or prevent damage to environment/markets/people.

As the greens gain more political power, they will certainly have to formulate responses to existing & unavoidable armed conflicts. Whether different parties choose the idealogical pacifism or pragmatic armed intervention is the "debate" that this paragraph is refering to.

I propose that the paragraph be renamed to Use of Armed Force or some similar words. --rakkar (talk) 03:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Done. It is a good idea.  That said, this entire series of articles remains in a rather unresearched state.  I worked rather hard on a series of merges and redirects over a year ago; I didn't add to the research or content, but I improved the organization in the hopes that the articles would then be easier to edit.  However, the main articles in the series have changed very little since then.  Fishal (talk) 15:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs here at all - and especially not in the section entitled "influence". It's more of a match to the "critique" section of the Green Politics page. Also when considering the NPOV aspects of this discussion, it might be valuable to consider this article from the same source also written last year The Australian Democrats and the Politics of Peace. Chrismaltby (talk) 01:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with ChrisMaltby, the green politics page would be a more suitable home for the info, perhaps with slightly less words. --rakkar (talk) 08:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

German Greens were not the first Green Party
The world's first green party began in Hobart 1972, followed a year later by the world's first national Green Party established in New Zealand in 1973- the Values Party (and was re-established as the Green Party of Aotearoa in 1990). The German Greens Party sought permission from the Values Party to use the 'four principles'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.92.200.184 (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I also believe the New Zealand Value's party and its successor the Green party need more on this page as it was one of the first green parties, the first to win a seat under the FPP system, one of the biggest green parties(in share of vote) world wide and the third biggest party in New Zealand(which is unusal for a green party)-Alex  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.114.166 (talk) 12:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Formation
There is a reason, albeit not one that justifies the wording 'formed between 1937-1965', for the Green Party foundation to be described as evolving over that period of time. In England, in particular, the party was a political pressure group roughly similar (and my apologies for the incomplete comparison) to the Sierra Club, until it was recognized that they had sufficient support to become a party. So the people are the same, the logo is the same, the name is similar. But of course, it wasn't really a party then, and it wasn't forming in the usual sense. Anarchangel (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Capital G
Can anyone please add a source to prove this statement: "The distinction is very often made between "green parties" (lower-case letters) and "Green Parties" (capital letters)."

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Indigenous peoples
I have removed the reference to indigenous peoples that was present in the first paragraph. This does not appear to be a policy in the United States (it's not mentioned in the Wikipedia article) nor in the United Kingdom, and therefore does certainly not constitute a worldwide view, as the article is supposed to be. There is a concept known as indigenous British, which is largely talked about by the British National Party, but it is a concept rejected by most (if not all) other parties, including the Green Party of England and Wales. In fact, it appears the indigenous British article has recently been deleted, I suspect, due to the overtly political nature of the very concept. --Rebroad (talk) 11:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Earl Killian, prominent green software engineer, up for deletion
He has 26 patents and describes himself as belonging to the Green Party. I urge readers to weigh in on the decision to delete his article Articles for deletion/Earl Killian. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved per AjaxSmack, Rannpháirtí anaithnid and 70.24.247.66. DrKiernan (talk) 08:13, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Green party → Green Party – These are mostly real, capitalized parties. Apteva (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

 * The parties themselves are called "Green Party" but this article is not a list of parties with this name but is instead a description of Green parties in general. Some of these parties mentioned in the article don't even have "Green" in their name (e.g., Ecolo; see Category:Green political parties for others).  The current title works fine.  —  AjaxSmack   00:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose this isn't a singular unitary movement across the globe, but separate instances, so this is about the concept of a green party, instead of say Liberal International. -- 70.24.247.66 (talk) 05:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, courteously. This is a tricky one. We have Socialist Party, but Communist party. It appears every party listed at Socialist Party has that phrase in its name, however. There's Liberal Party, with a few parties without that exact phrase, and Conservative Party and Progressive Party are dabs. I'd like to see these articles standardized one way or another. As this article says, "There are distinctions between 'green' parties and 'Green' parties." The same could probably say about socialist, communist, liberal, or conservative parties and I think when it comes to Wikipedia we should not capitalize if in doubt. On the other hand, since every party listed at Conservative Party has that phrase, perhaps we should treat the article title as a proper noun as well. (Nutshell: I support consistency and prefer sentence case capitalization, but feel much more strongly about the former.) --BDD (talk) 17:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Agree that this is not about a singular Green Party, but various Green parties that differ in policy and ethos. Zarcadia (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Title of the article is not a proper noun. The article is about the concept of a green party (I'd use a small 'g' for green too in the article), rather than individual examples of "Green Party"s. -- RA (talk) 22:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Support moving, but Oppose destination – The article lead, The Green party is a formally organized political party in nearly 90 countries around the world... makes it sound like the Green Party is a multinational corporation. Where are their world headquarters? If I am correct in my assumption that the Green Party in Australia is no more affliated with the Green Party in America than the NY Conservative Party is affiliated with the UK Conservative Party, then let's bring back some plural title that makes it clear that all these parties are independent.  We can return the title to Worldwide green parties, or some other plural title like Green parties—and rewrite the lead. Wbm1058 (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2012 (UTC)  For example, Liberal parties redirects to Liberalism by country—that's the type of article we have here, and the title should be similar. – Wbm1058 (talk) 23:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Strange that that doesn't redirect to Liberal Party, isn't it? I agree with the need for standardization, but I prefer the more concise titles. --BDD (talk) 03:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Oppose as proposed, but on the surface I like the suggestion of Green parties as a potential move destination. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * Move log

 * 19:00, 7 January 2006 Jeandré du Toit moved page List of Green parties to Template:Green Parties over redirect (Moving the template back to the template namespace. The TfD is currently 1 delete, 11 keep.)
 * 19:14, 5 May 2007 Stemonitis moved page Green party to Talk:Green party/Premerge (preserving history)
 * 19:15, 5 May 2007 Stemonitis moved page Worldwide green parties to Green party (request at WP:RM; preference for singular noun)
 * 15:14, 7 February 2009 Graham87 moved page Green party to Green Parties (history merge) (revert)
 * 15:15, 7 February 2009 Graham87 moved page Green Parties to Green party (revert)
 * 15:25, 7 February 2009 Graham87 moved page Green party to Organized Green Party (more history merging) (revert)
 * 15:26, 7 February 2009 Graham87 moved page Organized Green Party to Green party (revert)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Competing move proposal
Green Party (disambiguation) → Green Party – per Democratic Party, Republican Party, Conservative Party, Democratic Liberal Party, Liberal Democratic Party, and even The Greens, which are all disambiguations or WP:SETINDEX.

Please participate in discussion at Talk:Green Party (disambiguation), thanks – Wbm1058 (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Closer: please note history at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Green_Party&action=history Apteva (talk) 21:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Comment TBH that dab page could simply be merged in here. -- RA (talk) 09:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

the place of greenism in the political spectrum
I wonder whether we could consider green parties part of syncretic politics, or more specifically the third way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.72.132 (talk) 12:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Non-Violence? But what about taxation?
The article three times mentions "non-violence" as being a core principle of the Greens. However, Greens tend to be strongly associated with socialism, and socialism itself is typically dependent on theft of money by means of taxation, said taxation being backed up by the threat of violence. See the principles of Libertarianism, which classifies taxation as being theft. Shouldn't we condition Greens' claimed "non-violence" on a limitation, such as "Greens support non-violence, except where they want to take money in the form of taxation away from the people they oppose and vilify"? 67.5.241.97 (talk) 02:39, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Are they advocating violence against people they oppose? Sources? There are many different ideas around taxation within liberal ideas, tax being theft is only one, and it wouldn't be relevant to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielbeetham (talk • contribs) 09:19, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Green Party Of Austria
Austrias green party is (i think) the strongest green party in europe right now (national around 12%, present in all major cities, even some number one results in regional capitals). They are in coalitions in 4 of 9 austrian provinces (until a few months ago they had even five but lost one this year), also in the capital: vienna. Since you mostly hear about political right wing stuff when you hear about austria, maybe its worth mentioning that there is a strong, solid, green movement here too.

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Why does the article use the term "non-violence" instead of "pacifism"?
Another euphemism in the article such as "social justice". How about socialism?

62.226.93.145 (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

The Green party in Germany supported the first foreign mission of the german Bundeswehr in Kosovo in 1999, the first since the second world war
How can anybody seriously believe that this kind of parties are "non-violent" like the introduction of the article falsely claims?

The Greens also supported force in their history. Pacifism has never worked and only encourages evil.

62.226.93.145 (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * There is some logic in that. Can't be generalized for all, altought social jusitice and enviromentalism yes. So ok. More what is said by user hmmm that is private conclusion and this is not a forum. Nubia86 (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Green party


text:
Cog

A cog is a tooth of a gear or cogwheel or the gear itself.

Cog, COG, CoG, or The Cog may also refer to:

Science and engineering

 * Rear sprocket of a bicycle
 * Cog (ship), a type of sailboat from the 10th century onward
 * Center of gravity, a spatial point related to an object's center of mass
 * Cluster of Orthologous Groups of proteins; see Sequence homology and MicrobesOnline
 * Conserved oligomeric Golgi complex, that includes COG2, COG4, etc.
 * INSEE code (also code officiel géographique), a numerical indexing code used by the French National Institute for Statistics and Economic Studies
 * Mount Washington Cog Railway, the world's first mountain-climbing cog railway
 * OpenCog, a project that aims to build an open source artificial general intelligence framework
 * Chip on Glass; see Liquid-crystal display

Entertainment and media

 * C.O.G., a 2013 American drama
 * "The Changing of the Guard" (The Twilight Zone), a 1962 episode of the TV series The Twilight Zone
 * "Cog" (advertisement), a British television and cinema advertisement launched by Honda
 * Star Wars Jedi Quest 8: The Changing of the Guard, the eighth book in the Star Wars Jedi Quest series by Jude Watson
 * COG, a 2020 novel by Greg van Eekhout

Fictional characters

 * Coalition of Ordered Governments, a fictional organization from the Gears of War series
 * Cogs, the fictional antagonists in the MMORPG Toontown Online
 * Cogs, the fictional foot soldiers of Power Rangers' Machine Empire
 * Cog (comics), a character from the Spawn comics

Music

 * Cog (band), an Australian progressive rock band
 * "Changing of the Guards", a single from Bob Dylan's 1978 album Street-Legal
 * The Changing of the Guard (album), 2010 album by indie rock band Starflyer 59
 * "Change of the Guard", a song from Steely Dan's 1972 album Can't Buy a Thrill
 * "Changing of the Guard", a song from Exodus' 1990 album Impact Is Imminent

Organizations

 * Canberra Ornithologists Group, an Australian ornithological organization
 * Children's Oncology Group, a National Cancer Institute supported clinical trials group
 * Church of God (disambiguation), a name used by numerous, mostly unrelated Christian denominational bodies
 * Council of governments, regional bodies that exist throughout the United States
 * Covenant of the Goddess, a cross-traditional Wiccan group
 * The ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 country code for Republic of the Congo

Other uses

 * Cog (software), an open source audio player for macOS
 * Cog (project), a project at the Humanoid Robotics Group of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology
 * Continuity of government, defined procedures that allow a government to continue its essential operations in case of catastrophe
 * Changing of the Guard (or Guard Mounting), a formal ceremony in which sentries are relieved by their replacements
 * Course over ground, the actual path followed by a vessel from A to B as determined by its course

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Cog


text:
Talk:The Dam Busters (film)

Untitled
IMDb says the flying fortress was added by Warner Bros for the US market. Is this true or not? - Nommo —Preceding undated comment added by Nommonomanac (talk • contribs) 16:25, 17 January 2003 (UTC)
 * It says this in my book of cult films too. Mintguy

In my "Rough guide to cult films" (and on IMDB) it says that the word "nigger" was over-dubbed for the US with the word "trigger", but that the morse code received in the ops room still said "nigger". However I found this page "MORSE GOES TO THE MOVIES" which says that the morse code said "goner". Now does this mean that this was the original morse code or that this may have been over-dubbed again. Anyone have the right answer to this? Mintguy —Preceding undated comment added by Mintguy (talk • contribs) 19:48, 10 February 2003 (UTC)
 * There were a number of different morse signals, 'goner' was bomb successfully away and 'nigger' was for the dam being breached. ²¹² —Preceding undated comment added by ²¹² (talk • contribs) 13:17, 16 May 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. Why was the page moved? Is the one-word title the correct title? If so, why does the text use two words? Tannin 12:42 16 May 2003 (UTC)
 * I move dto because I belive it is the correct title, I've fixed it in the text too. There is the chance I'm wrong, it seems to be quite arbitary whether it is one or two words - although the BBC agrees . ²¹² —Preceding undated comment added by ²¹² (talk • contribs) 13:17, 16 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Amazon.co.uk calls it The Dambusters, but with an image of a DVD box saying The Dam Busters . IMDb (not necessarily a reliable source) calls it The Dam Busters . --rbrwr —Preceding undated comment added by Rbrwr (talk • contribs) 13:57, 16 May 2003 (UTC)
 * The 1951 book by Paul Brickhill is The Dam Busters —Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoOneTwo (talk • contribs) 20:36, 16 May 2003 (UTC)

According to IMDB the correct original title is The Dam Busters and in the US it was titled The Dambusters —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mintguy (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Halliwell's calls it The Dam Busters, too. --rbrwr —Preceding undated comment added by Rbrwr (talk • contribs) 12:20, 17 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Moved it back. Halliwells is pretty definitive, The film is inexplicably not listed in the Virgin Film Guide (a Christmas pressie), I already have 2001 Halliwells. Mintguy 12:50 17 May 2003 (UTC)

wrong scenerie
i've seen this film different times, and always when they attack the Ederdam the waldeck castle is on the wrong side, why ? WB should have used original foto's of the landscape. UP A 3/11 ACR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.83.174.160 (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2004 (UTC)

Similar & Based On
The Americans are at it again. Here we find some nutcase sees a similarity between this movie and the Yavin Battle in Star Wars IV. Then at the page for Yavin one sees George Lucas in essence based his battle scenario on this movie. Which is not only conjecture but downright ridiculous.

It's time to ban Americans from Wiki. And if you need any further convincing, look only to the sample immediately below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.205.216.74 (talk) 03:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Dialogue from "The Dam Busters":
 * Gibson: "How many guns do you think there are, Trevor?"
 * Trevor-Roper: "I'd say there are about ten guns - some in the field, and some in the tower."

 * Dialogue from "Star Wars: A New Hope":
 * Gold Leader: "How many guns do you think Gold Five?"
 * Gold Five: "I'd say 20 guns. Some on the surface, some on the tower."

 * Yeah, it's "downright ridiculous" to suggest that there are any similarities between "The Dam Busters" and "Star Wars: ANH". It's just a coincidence that George Lucas used almost the EXACT SAME DIALOGUE in his film as in this one...

 * Would you like some other "coincidences"?

 * The Dam Busters (DB): Planes attack in threes (not the usual twos or fours).
 * Star Wars (SW): X-Wing and Y-Wing fighters attack in threes.

 * DB: Aircraft fly at low level through a valley to the target.
 * SW: X/Y-Wings fly at low level through a trench to the target.

 * DB: Aircraft use a special weapon which must be dropped with great precision.
 * SW: X/Y-Wings use a special weapon which must be fired with great precision.

 * Add to that, the fact that George Lucas used clips from "The Dam Busters" while doing the rough edit for "Star Wars" (ie: before the special effects were complete), and the argument really starts to fall apart...

 * And, for the record, I am not American.
 * --Insley 02:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
This article once had a trivia section, which I thought was useful for a film article. I think trivia sections are valid content for an encyclopoedia if labelled so and we should re-install the one for this page. Comments? DocEss 17:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's called Production Notes but is just trivia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.138.46.155 (talk) 13:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Music Man Link?
I fail to see why there should be a link to the music man on this page, can someone please delete that? 82.5.75.13 19:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Try looking at the The Music Man (song) page. Granted, it is a bit tenuous, but there is a link. Nick Cooper 20:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but theres no mention of the song on this page... 82.5.75.13 19:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Avro Lincolns in the film
I've just checked Jonathan Falconer's exhaustive Filming The Dam Busters (Sutton Publishing, 2005), and although there are numberous references to the Avro Lincoln in its meticulous index, these are all in the context of Lincolns being based at RAF Hemsworth, at which the four Lancasters used in the film were based, and that the latter were flown by contemporary Lincoln crews. The crews were alternating between film work on the Lancasters and "regular" Lincoln sorties, so that they kept up to speed on "the day job." There's no suggestion that any of the Lincolns based at Hemswell were used deliberately, although Falconer notes that, "in the film a Lincoln or two can be seen on at least one occasion," at Scampton. He suggests this was accidental, as while no Lincolns were based there, it was at the time of film an Emergency Diversion Airfield, so may have had an unexpected "visitor." Checking the film, I'm presuming it's where the crews are driven out to their aircraft on the night of the mission. There is a continuous shot from a moving vehicle, looking backwards, in which - progressively - five four-engined bombers can be seen. Since the film-makers only had use of four Lancasters, one must be the Lincoln Falconer refers to. To me is seems to be the aircraft fully visible on the left of the start of the this shot, from the length and shape of the nose. (0:17:41 on the R2 DVD) Nick Cooper 23:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Right you are Nick. Count the number of aircraft in the picture and you get five. FWIW Bzuk 01:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC).
 * Yep, that's the one. To me it looks like number 2 is a Lincoln, as the rest are clearly Lancasters. From what Falconer says, I suspect this is really just a case of there happening to be a Lincoln at Scampton on the day this scene was shot, and the director taking advantage of it in the extreme background. Only a certain number of aircraft were officially at the disposal of the film-makers, although they could make use of whatever else was there in the background, e.g. the Mosquito Wallis and Summers walk past earlier in the film. Nick Cooper 06:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Any Lincoln present should be easily recognised by its four-bladed propellers - most Lancasters had three-bladed ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Gibson's dog
The film is being shown on Channel 4, right at this moment and they have edited out the word "nigger" in all of the scenes in which it occurs. Perhaps the page should be updated to indicate that the film is now regularly (and probably only) shown with this word edited out. Jooler 17:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The DVD of the film as currently distributed by Netflix has Nigger as the name of the dog, but also shows a plane crashing into a hill at one of the dams, which the article says was added for the American release. The article is very muddled with respect to the dogs name, with discussion of it at numerous parts of the article. It should be consolidated. Edison (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Only one way round this problem for the remake as far as I can see - the dog needs to be referred to as "Tigger" by a character, but when another character tries to correct them, they get interrupted before they can pronounce the whole n-word.

I.e.:

Character 1: (playing with the dog) "Come on, Tigger! Here boy!" Character 2: ....Why'd you call him Tigger? His name is N-" (gets interrupted before he gets further than "Nuh" bit). Maybe an alarm or phone rings, or someone yells for an unrelated matter (yells at Character 2 his rank in order to get his attention -"Airman!"). Can't remember when the dog's name is said in the original - if it occurs near the bit (spoiler) when the dog gets run over, then character 2 can be interrupted by character 1 shouting "LOOK OUT!").

The other options being to leave out the dog's name entirely, leave out the dog entirely, or actually use the n-word (which seems to be the least best idea). I would put this on the discussion page of the remake, but I don't think wikipedia has a seperate page for the remake. --204.4.131.140 (talk) 12:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a reminder that this page is for discussing the article, and not for general discussion about the film. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  14:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Screenplay
In the article it says that the film is based on the books by Paul Brickhill and Guy Gibson. Yet in the article on R. C. Sherriff it says that the film is based on the play The Long Sunset. I would imagine that on of these is wrong, altough I could not say which one Franny-K 19:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The R. C. Sherriff page deosn't say anything of the sort. Nick Cooper 13:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It does in the bibilography section it says that the play The Long Sunset was written in 1955 and was adapted as the The Dambusters Franny-K 17:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That just says that in 1955 he wrote the play The Long Sunset (which is about Rome) and the screenplay The Dam Busters. They have no relation whatsoever, they're just in adjacent columns.--Father Goose 18:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Image sizes
As per Manual_of_Style image size should not be specified on the page, except under special circumstances, that don't seem to hold here. If you like large images, set your own image preferences. What about those viewing the page on a slow connection? They would probably prefer that the page obeyed their image preferences. Rich257 (talk) 12:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering the default image size is 180px, there's no reason why Redgrave should be hard-coded as 200px. Todd's picture doesn't need to be so big either.  However, it is hard to make out the detail in the "bombardier" picture at 180px, so I'd vote "special circumstances" on that one and default-size the other two.--Father Goose (talk) 00:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the bombadier picture really needs some size to show up well, down at thumb size it's just a dark blur. I agree that the Redgrave survives nicely at 180 as a picture, although in terms of layout it fills the whitespace nicely at 225.  I've dropped it down in any case.  The Todd picture is more problemantic.  It looks like it should be OK at thumb size, but in reality it just doesn't show up well at 180 or 200.  Eve 215 was somewhat lacking.  I've got it at 225.  I think these are really the minimum sizes to allow these images to display well. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  22:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There are potential issues of local display sizes here; if you're running at a high resolution without any kind of image-scaling, "thumbs" will look tiny indeed. I'm running at 1600x1200 but with images doubled, so everything looks okay.--Father Goose (talk) 02:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you go into that a little further? Everything I'm running is pretty vanilla, which, I think, simulates what the largest number of people who are likely to access Wikipedia on a casual basis would be running. Those people are my primary concern.  If Wikipedia is to become what I believe it is on the verge of being, the first choice of most people to grab some quick information when they need it, it needs to be presented in such a way that people who pop in will see good information, well presented.  (See my argument here) Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  02:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, for instance, my resolution is 1600x1200, I have text scaling set at 200%, and my default browser is Firefox. Image sizes on most of Wikipedia are just right with these settings.  However, I was surprised to find that, using Internet Explorer, it didn't scale the images by 200%, making all of the images way too small.  If I were running IE instead of Firefox regularly, by now I'd have increased the default size of thumbnails in my preferences to 350px or higher -- and the 225px settings you're advocating here would be too small.
 * Tweaking image sizes based on how it looks on your screen will not always produce a good result.--Father Goose (talk) 06:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I certainly understand that -- although I run IE, I check many of my image layouts with Firefox to make sure they work with it as well. I'm not sure how to harmonize the concerns you're talking about with the need to have Wikipedia look good to the casual user, the kind of person who opens the box, plugs in the computer and starts using it, when they come to Wikipedia looking for information. The Early Adapters and Techno-geeks have either already accepted or rejected Wikipedia at this point, so the future success of the project will depend on hooking the casual user and having them spread word-of-mouth so that Wikipedia is the automatic first choice much as Google is for searching.  If I'm correct in that, then it's vital for the project that when they come to Wikipedia, they see good information well presented, and that's certainly not going to be the case if what they get is a bunch of tiny thumbnails scattered around the articles, neither enhancing the text nor helping the article flow for the eye. These issues obviously can't be solved here, they really need to be addressed at a deeper level, but that's only going to happen when folks take the visual aspects of articles more seriously, and don't deal with it as an afterthought. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  06:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I take it seriously. But as you say, it can't be solved here.  If the site should be optimized for the casual user -- and I agree that it should be -- then 180px is a) too small or b) appropriately small to make the site readily accessible to all readers (i.e., those on dial-up).  Given that users can click on images when they want to see more detail (I do so routinely), and that it's not hard to realize that you can do that (my dad did, and he's a computer dunce), settling on a small-image standard -- and sticking to the standard -- may be of greater service to the casual user than hard-coding sizes.
 * I'm not sure where the standard size of 180px was decided upon. Surely there must be somewhere to complain about it.--Father Goose (talk) 10:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the dial-up problem concerns me as well, which is one reason why I try to keep images as small as possible whenever I can, although I think we've turned a corner and more than half on the online population now has some sort of broadband. I agree that clicking through is an option, and I often opt for that solution when photos can't possibly be displayed large enough in the article to make them totally legible or clear, but while that's fine for a map, or a complex diagram, and a document, people shouldn't have to click through to see who a single person is or what the setting is on a screenshot -- they should be able to pick it up from the article. About 180 - this is Wikipedia, so I assume there's someone to complain to, whether or not it will do any good! :-> Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  11:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Lists
Where lists are appropriate, they should stay, but there is no need to have lists for the production notes. If there is no great big hue and cry, I will change the lists to the more standard paragraph form. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC).
 * I dunno, sometimes lists of stuff like that are easier to read, but if you want to have a go at prosifying it, I have no objection. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  17:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The real reason for not using lists is in heading off a very dedicated band of editors who had previously categorized lists as "trivia" and made a point of routinely removing them. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is that. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)  (talk / cont)  11:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Remake Page
Is it time to start a new page for the '09 Remake, now that we have information such as the Weta Workshop, locations etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmfreak (talk • contribs) 11:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Difficult to say, really - it depends on if there's lots to say about it already, eg like Quantum of Solace, or whether most of it would be just speculation. It's usually best to wait at least until a trailer has been produced, which is a good indication of when filming has actually taken place. Bob talk 11:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ten Full-Size Lancasters - Really? The text says "Weta Workshop is making the models and special effects for the film and have made 10 life size Lancaster bombers.[10]" but the citation [10] is only a link to Weta Workshop's corporate website, and does not support the contention that ten live sized Lancasters have been made. Having recently stood next to a Lancaster I'm a little dubious they are going to make ten life sized. They will more likely make one or two and CGI film of them and of the one or two flying Lancs to look like an entire squadron. I've looked around in the website that the citation links to but while mentioning that the company will be working on Dam Busters, I cannot find a reference to any work having been done, and no mention of having built any Lancasters. Maybe I'm wrong and they have made ten, but the link provided is not evidence. (129.210.51.217 (talk) 23:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC))

"See also"
An editor is removing the link to "Dam Busters March" in the "See also" section, on the grounds that: "our policiy is quite clear, if a wikilink is in the article body as this link is (more than once even), then we DO NOT put that wikilink in the see also section" However, this turns out not to be the case, as this excerpt from Wikipedia:Layout indicates:

"A reasonable number of relevant links that would be in the body of a hypothetical 'perfect article' are suitable to add to the 'See also' appendix of a less developed one.[5] Links already included in the body of the text are generally not repeated in 'See also'; however, whether a link belongs in the 'See also' section is ultimately a matter of editorial judgment and common sense."

Clearly, this is a matter for consensus, and removing the link on the grounds that it violated policy is not correct. I suggest that the editor make the case for deleting this long-standing link in this section. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 20:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. My editorial judgment and common sense lead me to believe that when the article already has an entire section for the "Dambusters March" and the article "Dambusters March" is linked to twice (with both a hatnote at the top of the section and in the very first sentence of the section), no purpose is served by including the link as a see also.  All the more so as our policies advise against doing just that.  Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 06:26, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree that the section, hatnote, and in-section link are plenty; no need for a further See also.--Father Goose (talk) 03:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also in agreement - the "See also" is pretty superfluous. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like consensus to me -- no more argument from this quarter. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 04:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Influence
Sorry, I did not make myself clear in my edit; I meant that the fact the the Dam Busters was referenced by Pink Floyd was evidence that the Dam Busters had a notable influence in popular culture, which is therefore surely relevant to a section dedicated to the Influence of the Dam Busters film? If there were perhaps any specific reason for getting rid of this information, I would welcome it, but I saw no such thing in edit 300216520 by 98.232.145.73 ... Gmfreak (talk) 14:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You still require some attribution of notability. Just because a rock group uses it for a fleeting moment in a video does not automatically instill legitimacy as a notable example of popular culture. Make your case further. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC).
 * The Dam Busters is the film being watched on television by Bob Geldof in a scene in the 1982 film The Wall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ground Filming
Somebody keeps adding words to the effect that 'some' ground scenes were shot at Scampton. This is simply not true. RAF Scampton in 1954 was in the process of detailed conversion to receive the highly classified V-Force aircraft and the Air Ministry refused point blank to permit ANY filming within the station. Nearby RAF Hemswell was offered instead. All of the interior and exterior ground filming took place within Hemswell. Hemswell still stands, with a basically unchanged road layout and most of the original buildings. There is not a single scene in the film that cannot be placed accurately within the Hemswell location. 21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 17:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Fictionalisation or dramatisation?
A few weeks ago I queried the inclusion of the Lancaster in the article Aircraft in fiction, on the grounds that the "The Dam Busters" was not fiction but a dramatisation of real events. The view of one editor there was that only documentaries can be classed as non-fiction; the rest, including "The Dam Busters", are therefore fiction. This view prevailed by default, although no consensus was established. One opinion was expressed that a line needs to be drawn, but that it would be difficult to know where to draw it. What are the views here - is "The Dam Busters" fiction? Thanks. --TraceyR (talk) 12:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Evidently not since the Raid did occur and the aircraft were real. It is the prerogative of editors to state opinions but one lone editor should not hold sway. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC).
 * Since its entry there describes it as a "dramatisation of the real-life raid", it's at least not misrepresenting it as total fiction. At the same time, it's probably fair to call Dam Busters fiction based on real events.  There are lots of other entries at Aircraft in fiction for dramatized versions of real-life events -- Memphis Belle, Enola Gay, etc.--Father Goose (talk)
 * The Aircraft in fiction article is an unusual one in that it seems to draw from other articles extant and at first reading I assumed it was about fictional aircraft. Perhaps the title should be "real aircraft appearing in fiction" or "actual aircraft in fiction". FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but every title I can think of just seems more awkward than the current one. Fictional aircraft is the article with fictional aircraft, btw.--Father Goose (talk) 22:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I moved the article's explanation of "this is about real aircraft, for fictional aircraft see" into a hatnote. Hopefully that'll help.--Father Goose (talk) 23:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * An unfortunate article anyway - IMHO it distracts productive editors from working on more useful articles. --TraceyR (talk) 23:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's true of the entire encyclopedia. People work on the parts that interest them, and meanwhile a lot of really basic topics languish.  The only cure for that is to work on the basic topics.--Father Goose (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Tightening
The recent exercise in editing actually eliminated a great deal of detail. Perhaps the first recourse is to go a bit slower and look for section changes to see if they are not contested. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2010 (UTC).

Dog's Name
Reading the 1952 Book "The Dam Busters," the author refers to the dog as "[redacted racial epithet]" not "Nigger." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.196.65.255 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 9 July 2013
 * That's because that change was made for the US edition; the original 1951 UK edition had the dog's real name. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * AFAICT, No such change was made, the anon is trolling with one racial epithet replacing another. Nigger's name is a very well established fact. Do not feed the trolls, please. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The first American Ballantine books edition did make that change (i.e. to "Sambo"), whether you like (or know) it or not. This came out in 1952 (i.e. a year after the first UK edition), so presumably is the copy the IP has read. Nick Cooper (talk) 21:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, this article is about the film, in which Nigger's name is Nigger. If you can provide a citation for this conjecture, then it should go into Nigger, but I see no reason why it should be mentioned here.  Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Barnes Wallis's daughter Elisabeth Gaunt has a cameo in the film
Barnes Wallis's daughters Mary Stopes-Roe and Elisabeth Gaunt were interviewed on The One Show this evening, and Elisabeth mentioned she has a small part in the film - they showed the clip and she's the photographer in the glass box lowered into the test tank, saying 'It's ok, I've got that alright'. Programme on iPlayer: at 26:14, segment from 24:03 - 28:02. 86.164.124.57 (talk) 18:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Political slant?
Is it true that this film played a big part in rescuing the image of Bomber Command, remembering that no-one wanted to talk about the European bombing campaign for years, because the bombing of civilians was not regarded as something to celebrate? Valetude (talk) 11:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * RAF Bomber Command didn't need its image 'rescuing' as for the average Briton the Germans got what they deserved, the average adult Briton when the film was made still having recent memory of The Blitz, it is only in the last decade or so that sensibilities have become such that the 'image' of that organisation is questioned, almost entirely by people who were not even born at the time, and who had never had to be on the receiving end of the Luftwaffe.
 * For the normal RAF Bomber Command type of operation carried out for most of the latter part of the war one only needs to watch Appointment in London made around the same time as The Dam Busters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.13 (talk) 17:37, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Propaganda in this movie.
All of the comments below can be confirmed here: Operation Chastise,

The most important aspect of this raid was to disrupt the supply of electricity to the factories. The damage to the factories themselves was secondary. The movie completely misses this point. It is made in the BBC "announcement" but is not emphasised. Near the end, when we see the model train being shover off its tracks, and the floods passing through various factories, these are shown to appear as being "important".

Much was made at the time this information was released that this was a "near surgical" strike with minimal loss of human life. That is simply not true. The Germans were not fools, they were anticipating raids on their dams, and thus kept the POWs and the factory workers below the dam height to discourage precisely this. As was made clear when the surviving aircrew was interviewed after the war, Butcher Harris' attitude was that the POWs and workers who would be drowned were mainly not British and therefore did not count. Now of course difficult though it is, such an approach in war is often necessary - pawns occasionally have to be sacrificed. But that is not how this raid was portrayed, and therein lies the propaganda.

The movie shows raids on only two dams. There was an attempted raid on a third, but embarrasingly, the bombers attacked the wrong lake.

The actual impact on German industry was minimal, with the dams being repaired and electrical power restored in a relatively short time. Yet the movie and its advertising came across as a heroic if tragic enormous success. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.175.43.175 (talk) 07:16, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * No. The film was made ten years after the war, and for the purpose of dramatic entertainment and not propaganda. It is fairly faithful to the book and to the historical record. 617 Squadron in fact attacked four dams, not three. McCarthy and Brown attacked the Sorpe, both achieving accurate drops, but this dam was an earth bank, less susceptible to the Wallis bomb and requiring a different method of attack, in which the bomber flew parallel to the dam and dropped the weapon unspun. The dam's crest did crumble as a result, and had it crumbled only a few inches further the water would have started to pour over and break the dam down. Townsend attacked the Ennepe dam without result, dropping the bomb short; it is not certain whether he attacked the nearby Bever dam by mistake, which could easily have happened in the misty conditions at that time. The Sorpe and Ennepe attacks are omitted in the film for dramatic reasons. The Germans did not position slave-worker camps or factories to deter attacks on dams. They had no notion that aircraft could break dams and, after the raid, they expended vast resources on improving the anti-aircraft defences at all their dams, besides the diversion of labour into rebuilding the dams themselves, which took months. The raid contributed, by creating difficulties over water and electricity suppy, to the overall effect of the RAF's 'Battle of the Ruhr'. Ruhr steel and coal production was severely cut in the second quarter of 1943 due to British air attacks including the Dams Raid. The Eder damburst destroyed an enormous area of first-class farmland by scouring away the topsoil, which was hardly convenient for the German war economy just then. The effect on civilian morale was also considerable and led Goebbels' propaganda ministry to claim that the raid was planned by a Jew. (See Victor Klemperer, The Klemperer Diaries 1933-1945, Phoenix Press, London, 2000, ISBN 1 84212 022 0, p.666 -- '21st May, Friday Morning... The last few days have been dominated by the river-dam business. First: the English have "criminally" bombed two dams (location not stated), very many civilian casualties. Then: it has been proved, proved by an English newspaper article, that this criminal plan was hatched by a Jew; it therefore belongs on the list of Jewish "misdeeds" and will, like the other Jewish crimes, be atoned for.' Klemperer, who was Jewish, is quoting the Nazi press ironically. The IP above is merely toeing the Goebbels line.) Albert Speer later wrote that the Dams Raid created a 'critical situation'. In both Britain and the US, newspaper front pages with Jerry Fray's 'before and after' pictures of the Moehne Dam caused a sensation. That the RAF could achieve such an extraordinary result with so few aircraft, and that the Luftwaffe could not stop them, was obviously very heartening (except to the Nazis). The New York Times wrote on 18 May, 'The RAF has secured another triumph. With unexampled daring, skill and ingenuity it has blasted two of Germany's important water dams which are vital parts of the whole industrial and transportation system of West Germany and has thereby delivered the single most devastating blow dealt from the air... All Americans will join with Sir Archibald Sinclair [Secretary of State for Air] in congratulating Wing Commander GP Gibson on his feat and mourn with him the loss of the eight aircraft and their gallant crews in the enterprise.' The same day, CBS Radio's Howard Smith, reporting from Berne, called the operation 'one of the most daring and devastating raids of the war.' (John Sweetman, The Dambusters Raid, Cassell, London, 2002, ISBN 13 978-0-3043-5173-2, pp.241-2.) The raid was in fact the most destructive single air attack in history up to that point: more destructive in lives and property than the 1,000-bomber raid on Cologne a year earlier. All this with a single squadron of Lancasters. Churchill referred to the raid in his well-received address to Congress on 19 May. The film, and the raid itself, remain so embedded in American popular culture that every media-savvy American knows how Lucas copied the Moehne attack sequence in the first Star Wars film. All warfare is psychological warfare and the film quite correctly depicts the success of the raid in those terms. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:46, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

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Hemswell
I have no idea why the article claims that Guy Gibson's last posting was to Hemswell. It wasn't. I don't think he was ever at Hemswell. His last posting was to Coningsby, as a staff officer. He took off from Coningsby on his last sortie, using a Mosquito B XX borrowed from 627 Squadron at nearby Woodhall Spa. (Susan Ottaway, Dambuster: A Life of Guy Gibson VC DSO* DFC*, Pen & Sword, Barnsley, 2007, ISBN 978 84415 6 054, pp.150, 157-8.) Khamba Tendal (talk) 20:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Ground effect
I'm sure I have read somewhere that Richard Todd had to learn how to taxy a Lancaster for the film. Should it be included in the article and if so, does it require a source? Or would be dismissed as trivia?

I don't know if footage of him doing so (taxying), was ever used. RASAM (talk) 14:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The wrong squadrons are credited with doing the flying sequences.
The article refers to the planes in the film being flown by Canberra pilots. Apart from the fact that this makes no sense, when the RAF still had active Avro Lincoln squadrons whose pilots were ideally suited to flying Lancasters, I know that the planes were flown by crews from 83 and 97 Lincoln squadrons. My father was a Lincoln pilot in 83 squadron at that time. 46.69.229.242 (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Dam Busters (film)


text:
13th Annual Grammy Awards

The 13th Annual Grammy Awards were held on 16 March 1971, on ABC, and marked the ceremony's first live telecast. They recognized accomplishments by musicians from the year 1970. The ceremony was hosted for the first time by Andy Williams.

General field
Record of the Year
 * "Bridge over Troubled Water" - Simon & Garfunkel ‡
 * Roy Halee, Art Garfunkel & Paul Simon, producers

 * "(They Long to Be) Close to You" - The Carpenters
 * Jack Daugherty, producer

 * "Everything Is Beautiful" - Ray Stevens
 * Ray Stevens, producer

 * "Fire and Rain" - James Taylor
 * Peter Asher, producer

 * "Let It Be" - The Beatles
 * George Martin, producer

Album of the Year
 * Bridge over Troubled Water - Simon & Garfunkel ‡
 * Roy Halee, Art Garfunkel & Paul Simon, producers

 * Chicago - Chicago
 * James William Guercio, producer

 * Close to You - The Carpenters
 * Jack Daugherty, producer

 * Déjà Vu - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young
 * David Crosby, Stephen Stills, Graham Nash, Neil Young, producers

 * Elton John - Elton John
 * Gus Dudgeon, producer

 * Sweet Baby James - James Taylor
 * Peter Asher, producer

Song of the Year
 * "Bridge over Troubled Water" ‡
 * Paul Simon, songwriter (Simon and Garfunkel)

 * "Everything is Beautiful"
 * Ray Stevens, songwriter (Ray Stevens)

 * "Fire and Rain"
 * James Taylor, songwriter (James Taylor)

 * "Let It Be"
 * John Lennon, Paul McCartney, songwriters (The Beatles)

 * "We've Only Just Begun"
 * Roger Nichols & Paul Williams, songwriters (The Carpenters)

Best New Artist
 * The Carpenters ‡
 * Elton John
 * Melba Moore
 * Anne Murray
 * The Partridge Family

Children's
Best Recording for Children
 * The Sesame Street Book & Record - (various artists) ‡
 * Joan Ganz Cooney, Thomas Z. Shepard, producers

 * The Aristocats - (various artists)
 * A Boy Named Charlie Brown - (various artists)
 * "Rubber Duckie" - Jim Henson
 * Susan Sings Songs from Sesame Street - Loretta Long

Classical

 * Best Classical Performance, Orchestra
 * Pierre Boulez (conductor) & the Cleveland Orchestra for Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps
 * Best Classical Vocal Soloist Performance
 * Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau for Schubert: Lieder
 * Best Opera Recording
 * Erik Smith (producer), Colin Davis (conductor), the Royal Opera House Orchestra & Chorus & various artists for Berlioz: Les Troyens
 * Best Choral Performance (other than opera)
 * Gregg Smith (choir director), the Gregg Smith Singers & the Columbia Chamber Ensemble for Ives: New Music of Charles Ives
 * Best Classical Performance - Instrumental Soloist or Soloists (with or without orchestra)
 * George Szell (conductor), David Oistrakh, Mstislav Rostropovich & the Cleveland Orchestra for Brahms: Double Concerto (Concerto in A Minor for Violin and Cello)
 * Best Chamber Music Performance
 * Eugene Istomin, Leonard Rose & Isaac Stern for Beethoven: The Complete Piano Trios
 * Album of the Year, Classical
 * Erik Smith (producer), Colin Davis (conductor), various artists & the Royal Opera House Orchestra & Chorus for Berlioz: Les Troyens

Comedy

 * Best Comedy Recording
 * Flip Wilson for The Devil Made Me Buy This Dress

Composing and arranging

 * Best Instrumental Composition
 * Alfred Newman (composer) for "Airport Love Theme"
 * Best Original Score Written for a Motion Picture or a Television Special
 * George Harrison, John Lennon, Paul McCartney & Ringo Starr (composers) for Let It Be performed by The Beatles
 * Best Instrumental Arrangement
 * Henry Mancini (arranger) for "Theme From Z"
 * Best Arrangement Accompanying Vocalist(s)
 * Larry Knechtel & Paul Simon (arrangers) for "Bridge over Troubled Water" performed by Simon & Garfunkel

Country

 * Best Country Vocal Performance, Female
 * Lynn Anderson for "Rose Garden"
 * Best Country Vocal Performance, Male
 * Ray Price for "For the Good Times"
 * Best Country Vocal Performance by a Duo or Group
 * Johnny Cash & June Carter for "If I Were a Carpenter"
 * Best Country Instrumental Performance
 * Chet Atkins & Jerry Reed for Me and Jerry
 * Best Country Song
 * Marty Robbins (songwriter) for "My Woman, My Woman, My Wife"

Folk

 * Best Ethnic or Traditional Recording (including traditional blues)
 * T-Bone Walker for Good Feelin'

Gospel

 * Best Gospel Performance (other than soul gospel)
 * The Oak Ridge Boys for "Talk About the Good Times"
 * Best Soul Gospel Performance
 * Edwin Hawkins for "Every Man Wants to Be Free" performed by the Edwin Hawkins Singers
 * Best Sacred Performance (Musical)
 * Jake Hess for "Everything Is Beautiful"

Jazz

 * Best Jazz Performance - Small Group or Soloist with Small Group
 * Bill Evans for Alone
 * Best Jazz Performance - Large Group or Soloist with Large Group
 * Miles Davis for Bitches Brew

Musical show

 * Best Score From an Original Cast Show Album
 * Stephen Sondheim (composer), Thomas Z. Shepard (producer) & the original cast (Dean Jones, Barbara Barrie, Elaine Stritch, Charles Kimbrough, George Coe, Teri Rolston, John Cunningham & Beth Howland) for Company

Packaging and notes

 * Best Album Cover
 * Robert Lockart (graphic artist) & Ivan Nagy (photographer) for Indianola Mississippi Seeds performed by B.B. King
 * Best Album Notes
 * Chris Albertson (notes writer) for The World's Greatest Blues Singer performed by Bessie Smith

Pop

 * Best Contemporary Vocal Performance, Female
 * Dionne Warwick for I'll Never Fall in Love Again
 * Best Contemporary Vocal Performance, Male
 * Ray Stevens for "Everything Is Beautiful"
 * Best Contemporary Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * The Carpenters for "Close to You"
 * Best Contemporary Instrumental Performance
 * Henry Mancini for Theme From Z and Other Film Music
 * Best Contemporary Song
 * Paul Simon (songwriter) for "Bridge over Troubled Water" performed by Simon & Garfunkel

Production and engineering

 * Best Engineered Recording, Non-Classical
 * Roy Halee (engineer) for Bridge over Troubled Water performed by Simon & Garfunkel
 * Best Engineered Recording, Classical
 * Arthur Kendy, Fred Plaut, Ray Moore (engineers), Pierre Boulez (conductor) & the Cleveland Orchestra for Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps

R&B

 * Best R&B Vocal Performance, Female
 * "Don't Play That Song" by Aretha Franklin
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance, Male
 * "The Thrill Is Gone" by B.B. King
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group, Vocal or Instrumental
 * "Didn't I (Blow Your Mind This Time)" by The Delfonics
 * Best Rhythm & Blues Song
 * General Johnson & Ronald Dunbar (songwriters) for "Patches" performed by Clarence Carter

Spoken

 * Best Spoken Word Recording
 * Martin Luther King Jr. for Why I Oppose the War in Vietnam

title: 13th Annual Grammy Awards


text:
Total Football

Total Football (totaalvoetbal) is a tactical system in association football in which any outfield player can take over the role of any other player in a team. A player who moves out of his position is replaced by another from his team, thus retaining the team's intended organisational structure. In this fluid system, no outfield player is fixed in a predetermined role; anyone can successively play as an attacker, a midfielder and a defender. The only player who must stay in a specified position is the goalkeeper.

Total Football's tactical success depends largely on the adaptability of each footballer within the team, in particular the ability to quickly switch positions depending on the on-field situation. The theory requires players to be comfortable in multiple positions; hence, it requires intelligent and technically diverse players.

Manager Rinus Michels is generally credited with introducing this system during the 1970s, at Dutch club Ajax and the Netherlands national football team. However, some authors credit teams such as the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s or the Golden Team of Hungary of the 1950s for having played in a similar style to Total Football. Both sides were influenced by Jimmy Hogan, who was in turn influenced by the combination game.

Pre-1970s
The first foundations for what became known as Total Football were laid by Jimmy Hogan, a Burnley native, who was influenced by the Scottish combination game. Working with Austrian coach and his friend Hugo Meisl in the early 1930s, Meisl's Austria national football team (known as the "Wunderteam") became possibly the first side to play Total Football. Hogan's influence reached beyond the Austrian borders, as two decades later the Hungary national team (also known as the "Golden Team") played a similar style of football under coach Gusztáv Sebes. The then president of the Hungarian Football Association, Sandor Barcs, said: "Jimmy Hogan taught us everything we know about football".

Torino ("Grande Torino" as the team was called) in the 1940s played a similar style as the Austrians. Between 1941 and 1947, Argentinian club River Plate formed a remarkable team, known as "La Máquina" (The Machine), whose attack formed by Carlos Muñoz, José Manuel Moreno, Adolfo Pedernera, Ángel Labruna and Félix Loustau perfected the "false nine" style and the constant change of attack positions. "La Máquina" won several Argentine and international titles.

Also in the 1940s, English manager Jack Reynolds implemented a style that was bearing similarities to Total Football at Ajax, leading the Dutch club to rise in importance and win trophies for the first time. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, Burnley were playing a renewed system in English football "where every player could play in every position" under manager Harry Potts. This Total Football system led the club to the 1959–60 First Division title and won many plaudits, including admiration from all-time English First Division top scorer Jimmy Greaves. Another pioneer was Vic Buckingham, manager of West Bromwich Albion, Ajax and Barcelona in the 1950s and 1960s, as the footballing education that he established helped the progressive nature of the type of football of Rinus Michels and later Johan Cruyff, a player who was introduced into the Ajax first team by Vic Buckingham.

Totaalvoetbal schools
Rinus Michels, who played under Reynolds, later became manager of Ajax in 1965. Michels developed the tactics of Total Football after 1970, most importantly with the introduction of forward Johan Cruyff, perhaps the system's most famous exponent. Although Cruyff was fielded as centre forward, Michels encouraged Cruyff to roam freely around the pitch, using technical ability and intelligence to exploit the weaknesses in the opposition and create chances. Cruyff's teammates also worked to adapt themselves accordingly, regularly switching positions to ensure tactical roles in the team were consistently filled. Austrian coach Ernst Happel reworked the theory to introduce strength, encouraging his players to play tougher during his spells at ADO Den Haag and Feyenoord. Happel also managed the Netherlands national team to a runner-up finish in the 1978 FIFA World Cup.

The major component was the use of space, with the need to consistently create space central to the concept of Total Football. Former Ajax defender Barry Hulshoff described it as "[the thing] we discussed the whole time. Cruyff always talked about where to run and where to stand, and when not to move". He further elaborated that position switching was only made possible due to apt spatial awareness. He also described Total Football being proactive, as well as highlighting the use of pressing, which would be used to win back the ball or put the opposition under considerable pressure. Michels and Cruyff saw unprecedented success with the system, winning eight Eredivisie titles, three European Cups, and one Intercontinental Cup. The stark rise of Total Football and its attacking prowess was also linked with the "death of Catenaccio", an Italian system reliant heavily on defence promoted by Helenio Herrera's Internazionale during the 1960s.

The Total Football system was prone to defeat, experienced notably in the final of the 1974 FIFA World Cup contested by the Dutch and West Germany. Michels and Cruyff saw their ability to introduce playmaking stifled in the second half of the match by the effective marking of Berti Vogts. This allowed Franz Beckenbauer, Uli Hoeneß, and Wolfgang Overath to gain a stronghold in midfield, thus, enabling West Germany to win 2–1.

Modern era
Building further on the foundations of Total Football, a new tactical system developed in FC Barcelona (particularly under manager Pep Guardiola) and the Spain national team during the late 2000s and early 2010s. This came to be known as Juego de Posición or Tiki-taka.

title: Total Football


text:
Midori

Midori (みどり, ミドリ,, , ) is the Japanese word for "green" and may refer to:

Places

 * Midori, Gunma
 * Midori-ku, Chiba
 * Midori-ku, Nagoya
 * Midori-ku, Sagamihara
 * Midori-ku, Saitama
 * Midori-ku, Yokohama

Given name

 * Midori, (born 1961) an alias of new-age musician Medwyn Goodall
 * Midori (actress), born 1968 as Michele Watley, pornographic actress
 * Midori (author), an author on human sexuality
 * Midori Furusawa (古澤 緑), Japanese cross-country skier
 * Midori Francis, (1994) American actress
 * Midori Gotō (五嶋 みどり), Japanese-American violinist
 * Midori Honda (本田 美登里), Japanese football manager
 * Midori Ishii (石井 みどり), Japanese politician
 * Midori Ito (伊藤 みどり), Japanese former figure skater
 * Midori Kahata|, (1995), Japanese group rhythmic gymnast
 * Midori Katō (加藤 みどり), Japanese voice actress
 * Midori Kinouchi (木之内 みどり), Japanese idol
 * Midori Kiuchi (木内 みどり), Japanese actress
 * Midori Kudoh (工藤 みのり), Japanese curler
 * Midori Kono Thiel, (1933), Japanese American calligrapher
 * Midori Kuzuoka (葛岡 碧), Japanese model
 * Midori Matsushima (松島 みどり), Japanese politician
 * Midori Matsuya (松谷 翠), Japanese pianist
 * Midori Miura (三浦 みどり), Japanese translator
 * Midori Naka (仲 みどり), Japanese stage actress
 * Midori Shimizu (disambiguation)
 * Midori Shintani (horticulturalist) (新谷 みどり), Japanese horticulturalist
 * Midori Shintani (薪谷 翠), Japanese judo wrestler
 * Midori Snyder, an American fantasy author
 * Midori Suzuki (disambiguation)
 * Midori Tanaka, Japanese athlete
 * Midori Takada (高田 みどり), Japanese composer
 * Midori Takahashi (高橋 翠), Japanese volleyball player
 * Midori Tatematsu (立松 緑), Japanese musician
 * Midori Tateyama, (born 1980), Japanese game scriptwriter
 * Midori Yajima (谷島 緑), Japanese sport shooter

Surname

 * Mako Midori (緑 魔子), Japanese actress
 * Yurie Midori (緑 友利恵), Japanese actress and gravure idol
 * Kenji Midori (緑 健児), Japanese karate instructor

Technology

 * Midori (operating system), the code name for an operating system that was being developed at Microsoft
 * Midori (web browser), a web browser based on Electron and part of Xfce
 * midori Javascript Framework, a JavaScript framework
 * Midori and Midori-2 (or Advanced Earth Observing Satellite), two satellites launched by the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency

Entertainment and arts

 * Midori (band), a Japanese jazz-punk fusion band
 * Midori (1992 film), a 1992 anime film
 * Midori Days, a manga and anime series and its title character Midori Kasugano

Fictional characters

 * Midori, a mecha in the anime series Lagrange: The Flower of Rin-ne
 * Midori, the main character of the novel series .hack//CELL
 * Midori, an enemy character in the video game The Punisher
 * Midori Aoyama (also known as Princess Zerian), a character in the tokusatsu Toumei Dori-chan
 * Midori Chitose, a character in the visual novel and anime Green Green
 * Midori Gurin, a character from the video game Yandere Simulator
 * Midori Kobayashi, a character in the novel Norwegian Wood
 * Midori Nishizono, a character in the visual novel and anime Little Busters!
 * Midori Sugiura, a character in the manga and anime series My-Hime and My-Otome
 * Midori Yamabuki (also known as Midori Norimaki), a character in the manga and anime series Dr. Slump
 * Sapphire Kawashima (nicknamed "Midori"), a character from the novel and anime series Hibike! Euphonium
 * Midori Asakusa, a character in the anime and manga series Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken!
 * Midori Sawatari (猿渡 美鳥), a character from School Babysitters

Other

 * Midori (train), a train service operating in Japan
 * Midori (liqueur), a bright green, melon-flavored liqueur made by Suntory

title: Midori


text:
User:GC

GC is my real name. I was born in Genoa, Italy, 48 yrs ago. I'm a physician. My faves are geography, history, my wife :-) Oh yeah, and Liv Tyler...

title: User:GC


text:
Talk:Emacs

Author Images
How is it that 2/3 authors have their photographs on the page? It seems appropriate to have all three or none. 209.161.228.135 (talk) 01:40, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

 * who is the third author? The article says there are two authors. both their pictures are present. there's even a picture of another developer who implemented EMAXlCS somewhere. 2601:547:B04:1D9E:D8C2:395C:9519:8266 (talk) 02:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's propose (non-automatic, of course) redirection to vim, and vice verca
Just look at the Google output when you google for "emacs" or "vi" -- in both cases, they suggest you meant the opposite, almost correcting you. Obviously, intentionally. I find this really funny, and maybe we may include this joke here as well, for the sake of The Editor War and increasing reader's mood 95.165.149.179 (talk) 21:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Emacs Pinky
The section is large, and it has multiple cites. There are multiple problems, however:
 * The first cite no longer exists; even archive.org has no copy (though I can't say that with certainty; for some reason archive.org scans the page endlessly, without results; I only did a random sampling)
 * Few of the sources could be characterized as reliable. Most of them link to EmacsWiki. A lovely site, but wiki's are user-generated content, and only very rarely acceptable as a reliable source.
 * Last, and most important imho, is that wikipedia is not a "howto" site. Most of the entries are prescriptive; that's not what the article is here for.

I would propose just removing the entire section. Lest there be any misunderstanding, I use emacs every day, and have done so since the 1980's. It's my editor of choice. I have suffered emacs pinky at times. But it's not such an enormous issue that we need a nearly entirely anecdotal section dedicated to it. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Emacs


text:
Ohana

Ohana is a Hawaiian term meaning "family" (in an extended sense of the term, including blood-related, adoptive or intentional). The term is cognate with Māori, meaning "nest". The root word ohā refers to the root or corm of the kalo, or taro plant (the staple "staff of life" in Hawaii), which Kanaka Maoli consider to be their cosmological ancestor.

In contemporary Hawaiian real estate jargon, an "ohana unit" is a type of secondary suite. It is a part of a house or a separate structure on the same lot that may contain a relative but which may not be rented to the general public.

In popular culture
The word is referenced in Disney's 2002 film, Lilo & Stitch, and throughout its franchise ("Ohana means family. Family means nobody gets left behind—or forgotten.").

title: Ohana


text:
Don O'Kelly

Don O'Kelly ( Donald Patrick Kelly; March 17, 1924 – October 2, 1966) was an American actor prominent in the 1950s and 1960s mostly on television. Though credited as "Don Kelly" in earlier performances, his billing was changed to "Don O'Kelly" in 1960.

Background
Donald Patrick Kelly was born in the Sheepshead Bay neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York to Robert Kelly, an Irish-American father (Robert J. Kelly) and Norwegian-American mother (Rachel Marie Knudsen).

Kelly enlisted in the United States Navy on June 17, 1941 just prior to World War II and saw active duty aboard the USS Stanton and USS Palmer. He saw convoy duty at San Juan, Puerto Rico, Iceland, England, Scotland, North Africa, and Italy. He served four years, three months, and 17 days of active duty. Kelly received an honorable discharge after the war and upon separation joined his cousin's ice skating show. O'Kelly used his GI Bill of Rights to study acting with the Strasberg company in Hollywood, California.

Career
Don O'Kelly began his career starring in Tank Battalion with Marjorie Hellen (later Leslie Parrish). O'Kelly was a familiar face to series television fans during the 1950s and 1960s. His last starring role was in The Hostage, made in 1966 and released in 1967, for which he received very favorable reviews.

TV and film credits

 * The Hostage (1967) ... Bull
 * Shoot Out at Big Sag (1962) ... Fargo
 * Frontier Uprising (1961) ... Kilpatrick
 * Tank Battalion (1958) ... Sgt Brad Dunne aka Korean Attack
 * The Notorious Mr. Monks (1958) ... Dan Flynn
 * Bombers B-52 (1957) ... Master Sergeant Darren McKind aka No Sleep Till Dawn (UK)
 * The Crooked Circle (1957) ... Joe Kelly
 * The Big Land (1957)... Billy Tyler aka Stampeded (UK)
 * The Wild Wild West (1965) episode The Night of a Thousand Eyes ... Peavey
 * Gunsmoke (1965) episode Eliab's Aim ... Dealer
 * Ben Casey (1964) episode One Nation Indivisible ... George Zybsko
 * Bonanza (1964) episode The Lila Conrad Story
 * The Virginian (1963) episode The Evil That Men Do ... Deke
 * The Dakotas (1963) episode Fargo ... Paul Young
 * The Gallant Men (1963)episode The Leathernecks ... Captain Barlow
 * 77 Sunset Strip (1963) episode Crashout ... Arnie Martin
 * The Gallant Men (1962) episode One Moderately Peaceful Sunday
 * 77 Sunset Strip (1962) episode Terror in a Small Town ... Sheriff Farger
 * The Beachcomber (1962) episode The Fugitive ... Womack
 * Ripcord (1961) episode High Jeopardy ... Johnny Grimes
 * 77 Sunset Strip (1961) episode The Turning Point ... Nate Minton
 * Bat Masterson (1961) episode Meeting at Mimbers ... Green River Tom Smith
 * Riverboat (1960) episode Zigzag ... Clyde
 * Bat Masterson (1960) episode The Elusive Baguette as “Reed Morgan”
 * The Deputy (1960) episode Lady for a Hanging ... Hunter
 * Bat Masterson (1960) episode The Last of the Night Raiders ... Jack Doolin
 * Tombstone Territory (1960) episode Girl From Philadelphia'' ... as outlaw Ben Quade
 * The Twilight Zone (1960) episode The Mighty Casey ... Monk
 * Overland Trail (1960) episode Fire in the Hole ... Red
 * 77 Sunset Strip (1960) episode Vacation with Pay ... Adams
 * Bourbon Street Beat (1960) episode Neon Nightmare ... George Johnson
 * Lawman (1960) episode The Truce
 * M Squad (1960) episode Race to Death ... Joe Calhoun
 * Laramie (1960) episode Duel at Alta Mesa
 * The Alaskans (1960) episode The Trial of Reno McKee ... Carl
 * The Alaskans (1960) episode Black Sand
 * Have Gun – Will Travel (1960) episode The Day of the Bad Man ... Amos Saint
 * Bonanza (1960) episode El Toro Grande
 * The Restless Gun (1959) episode A Very Special Inspector ... Blair Weeks
 * Tales of Wells Fargo (1959)episode The Daltons ...Bob Dalton
 * Black Saddle (1959) episode Client: Reynolds ... Harry Briggs
 * Lawman (1959) episode The Souvenir ... Virgil Carey
 * Disneyland (6 March 1959) episode The Slaughter Trail ... Jed
 * Texas John Slaughter (1959) episode (#1.5) The Slaughter Trail ... Jed
 * Disneyland (20 March 1959) episode Man from Bitter Creek ... Jed
 * Texas John Slaughter (1959) (#1.6) Man from Bitter Creek'' ... Jed
 * Sugarfoot (1959) episode The Giant Killer ... Tracy
 * The Texan (1959) episode A Quart of Law
 * Maverick (1958) episode Holiday at Hollow Rock ... Ira Swain
 * 77 Sunset Strip (1958) episode The Court Martial of Johnny Murdo ... Sergeant Bannock
 * Lawman (1958) episode The Oath ... Lou Menke
 * Broken Arrow (1958) episode War Trail ... Captain Baker
 * Have Gun – Will Travel (1958) episode The Teacher ... Coley
 * Maverick (1958) episode Trail West to Fury ... Jett
 * Wire Service (1957) episode Misfire
 * Frontier (1956) episode A Somewhere Voice ... Jim
 * Death Valley Days (1956) episode The Sinbuster
 * Frontier (1956) episode The Well ... Jim

title: Don O'Kelly


text:
Talk:John Betjeman

Dismissal of Modernism?
"He was alleged to be a snob, a romantic, out of touch with the realities of contemporary life and steeped in nostalgia.[who?] While these criticisms contain an element of truth, his opposition to modernism's rejection of history and disdain for the individual has since found support as modernism's full rigour has in turn been rejected and supplanted, and human scale and cultural context have been readmitted to serious debate."

This doesn't seem very NPOV... I think the page on Modernism would disagree with this dismissal. 77.97.143.150 (talk) 17:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Quick question
Quick question - Were Betjeman and MacNeice not already aquainted from Marlborough rather than later on at Oxford as stated?

 * I believe you are right. Anthony Blunt was another of his contemporaries at Marlborough.--Oxonian2006 16:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The juxtaposition of "Princess Anne" with "Oh little body, do not die" is a bit alarming, but I'm not sure how to rearrange the article. Perhaps the quote should be preceded by a heading such as "Quotations". -- Heron

And while we're at at it, was that poem really printed as prose? Also, it's missing a quotation mark—I assume it goes at the end. —JerryFriedman 18:01, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can look this up  Saltmarsh 14:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)  done    Saltmarsh 14:40, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I have just consideably extended Betjeman's work & bibliography. I am about to extend the top of the article. Please let me know if I'm standing on any toes! Saltmarsh 14:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Quick question - Were Betjeman and MacNeice not already aquainted from Marlborough rather than later on at Oxford as stated?

Grave picture
Um... Betjeman's article is the first wikipedia article of a person I've seen which has a picture of the person's gravestone (and its the only picture in the article too)... it doesnt seem to be an especially notable gravestone (the fancy calligraphy is a question of taste and not that unusual), except for its occupant. If it was Karl Marx's grave or Jim Morrison's grave, there is probably a reasonable argument for having pictures of those graves in an article, as they are notable tourist/sightseeing stops. I don't think Betjeman's grave is - what is the rationale for having a picture here of it? seems a bit morbid and is out of line with other articles. I think it should be replaced with an image of the poet when, you know, he was alive. Bwithh 22:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually it's a very pretty church in exactly the sort of area where people do vitit such sites and his grave, like many other poets, is certainly mentioned on all the usual local tourist bumph. Frankly it seems far more serious that we don't mention Slough, which if not his best work is certainly his most famous.Alci12 23:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

 * See Charles Parnell article for another example of the grave's use as part of the article. I agree that there certainly should be a more extant image in contrast to the image in question, however, its removal would be a little rash, especially if the only cause for doing so were to pander to tourist interests. I think that the inclusion of the gravestone, and I refer once again to the Parnell article as a student of Irish history, gives an insight into the character of the indicidual concerned, the very nature of the object depicted demanding (usually) some profound, if not initially response.

 * Would it not be better to have an image of him when he was actually alive, especailly as he was around in modern times and there must have been several photographs of him taken of him. It would be better to have a proper picture of him so we can see what he looked like, and not a statue (altough this is good in the article as he was instrumental in saving St Pancras from demolition) nor a picture of his grave (a bit mawkish for the top of the page and not particularly well known cf. Karl Marx etc)

Fantastic Article
As the centenary of the poet's birth approaches, I felt that I knew far too little about the man in question. Turning to Wikipedia, I found an article which was balanced, excellently referenced and generally very well-written, and come away much better informed. Such small 'nuggets' found scattered across the Wikimedia world do the Wiki foundation, especaiily Wikipedia a great deal of credit.

Come friendly editors and decide on Slough
In contrast to the sentiment above (by Alci12), I think this article really should make mention of Betjeman's most famous poem, even if it is not necessarily his best. It could even be in as brief a mention as "While best known for his poem Slough, Betjemena's verse ranges widely in both style and substance." Or something like that. But since it is his best known work it should be mentioned in his page. Agreed? Eusebeus 12:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Strong Agree. Slough is undoubtedly his most widely known work, and shows both Betjeman's humour and his concern for architecture, both significant in his life and works. It's also very funny. DuncanHill 13:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Disagree. Whilst "Slough" may be a work often quoted, isn't it pure guesswork to say that its 'his most widely known'? I'd have plumped for A Subaltern's Love-song as his most widely known, even if many people wouldn't recognise it by it's title.

Mighty Antar 14:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The complete lack of mention of the poem in an article of this length is a glaring omission. For good or bad, it has entered the national consciousness - why else would this be a news story? It is certainly mentioned in the article on Slough itself, and if even Slough itself is famous for it then surely Betjeman doubly so. --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

 * Regardless of whether it is his best known, Slough (poem) now has its own Wikipedia article...
 * ...which isn't linked from the author's page!
 * Ridiculous.
 * Four years on and still no mention in the article (TWELVE YEARS since the original query!!)
 * Looks like I have some editing to do...
 * EdJogg (talk) 18:16, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

 * It is most frustrating trying to come up with any proof that 'Slough' is Betjeman's best known work. Talk to anyone about the town (yes, I live there!) and there's a very high chance that they will mention 'friendly bombs'. Even this BBC poetry page about Betjeman chooses the opening lines in the callout box as THE sample of his writings.
 * The reference is also used by journalists in the same vein, usually when writing about Slough's successes (of which there have been many!)
 * Will just have to add something and let others improve it.
 * EdJogg (talk) 23:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

 * As someone who does not know the poem, or any of Betjeman's work, it seems to me that at the very least it is a very well-known poem, and on that basis alone it needs to be mentioned, particularly as there's an article on it. Whether or not it's "the best-known" is really neither here nor there.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:30, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Depression and daffodils
I thought the depression and daffodils comment was said by Larkin about himself

You may well be correct. It was Phillip Larkin who according to Collin's Concise dictionary of Quotations said "Deprivation is for me what daffodils were for Wordsworth" in an article in The Observer newspaper in 1979. Is the quote in our article simply a mistake, or was it Betjeman paraphrasing Larkin or visa-versa? Mighty Antar 15:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Since his death
As Jamie T using Betjeman's work is mentioned here, is it not equally relevant to add that the band British Sea Power are fans, appearing on the BBC2 documentary Betjeman and Me, performing The Licorice Fields at Pontefract? Their lyrics also share themes with much of the poetry, examples can be provided --Sparrow 08 (talk) 22:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Germany?
In his autobiography "sumoned by bells' he says that his family were of Dutch origin contrary to the belief who had mistakenly thought that his name was German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.153.74 (talk) 16:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure anymore: FamilySearch mentions a George Bete Betjemann from Bramstedt, Landkreis Cuxhaven, Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen), Germany, as his direct ancestor in the direct male line. Chances are the Betjemen were actually of German descent and came up with the story about Dutch descent during the First World War, when German descent was not very popular. --Maarten1963 (talk) 08:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Private Eye
Despite Betjeman's categorisation as a Private Eye contributor, this isn't mentioned anywhere in the article. --81.156.177.239 (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That Was The Week That Was
Webpage for TW3 suggests that Betjeman was a writer for it. 202.78.34.38 (talk) 10:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Style
This article contains much interesting information and much cloth-eared English. How very strange that someone who obviously loves English verse should be so totally at sea in the aesthetics of the English language. PiCo (talk) 10:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

So edit it. Spanglej (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Betjeman's Banana Blush
I removed the link to Wilkin's site, the audio is clearly from Betjeman's Banana Blush, and the site has no copyright or license statements anywhere. Paradoctor (talk) 11:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Place of Birth - Camden? No thank you..!
I'd like to propose changing JB's place of birth from Camden to Hampstead.

Camden, a name thought up for the 1960s Borough as part of the re-orginisation of Local Government in London, was certainly not where JB was born. Camden Town, the only Camden of the 1900s was part of the Metropolitan Borough of St Pancras.

I'm convinced JB himself would disapprove of the use of the ugly 1960s named Camden!

So let's change JB's Birthplace to Hampstead (MB of).

Sounds good Spanglej (talk) 20:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Refs
We're very short on refs. Parts of the article still read like a college essay. If anyone has any links to add - I think they would lift the article into becoming a good biographical piece on a great poet. I'm sure JB appreciate the effort. Spanglej (talk) 22:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Store windows
The image of his house in Cloth Fair, City of London, looks like a shop or store. Did he live above the shop? Was his house converted into a shop?Lestrade (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

He lived above the bar/restaurant now known as Betjeman's. SEMTEX85 (talk) 02:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Greta
"Greta, the object of his affections has remained a mystery until recently revealed." So ... who was she? 173.16.252.154 (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Maurice Bowra
In the section on Betjeman's time at Oxford Maurice Bowra is inaccurately described as 'Dean' of Wadham [College] from 1938 to 1970. In fact, Bowra was Warden (i.e. Head) of the college during that timespan. (When first appointed as a Fellow of Wadham in 1922, he was for a time Dean). I've taken the liberty of correcting this error. Norvo (talk) 22:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:John Betjeman


text:
Talk:List of Scientologists

Greg & Janet Deering?
In the page for Deering Banjo Co. you state that Greg & Janet Deering founded that company in 1975. They are scientologists, so should one or both be listed here as CEO status?

 * And also maybe Sky Dayton? Unconventional2  (talk · contribs · email)

 * ✅. Grorp (talk) 02:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion re Vivian Kubrick on BLP noticeboard
The discussion is over. Anyone can read it at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive346. Grorp (talk) 05:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Craig Jensen
Craig Jensen of Condusiv Technologies should probably be on the list. Grorp (talk) 06:04, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.wired.com/2000/03/scientology-in-the-machine/
 * https://craigjensen.com/scientologist/
 * https://hubbardcollege.org/craig-jensen/
 * https://www.davidmiscavige.org/videos/craig-jensen-video-on-david-miscavige.html
 * ✅. Grorp (talk) 02:03, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Colored table
I don't see any meaningful reason for the coloration, and no one sorts on birth year. The list is already in alphabetical order, and there's no need for an other-sortable table. A simple bulleted list would suffice, with birth year in parentheses, followed by the notes and citations. It would be easier to read (see recently archived complaint by mobile user in dark mode) and definitely easier to maintain the list. Grorp (talk) 01:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * Alright... I made a change to the format (not the content) so we can see what it would look like without 'tables'. Opinions? Grorp (talk) 02:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

 * I'll leave the table of former members, because sorting on 'when left' is at least somewhat interesting and makes having a sortable table worthwhile. Grorp (talk) 04:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Priscilla Presley
Is there any official evidence of her current status with Scientology because a lot of the evidence I’ve seen is from tabloid sources and they aren’t the most reliable. Bob3458 (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Grant Cardone
If anyone is interested, there is a draft article for Cardone: Draft:Grant Cardone. I found it one day and added the section for "Legal issues" and "Bibliography", but the article needs a lot of cleanup to transform it from "advertisement" to wiki article. Grorp (talk) 07:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of Scientologists