text:
Pyrgi Tablets

The Pyrgi Tablets (dated c. 500 BC) are three golden plates inscribed with a bilingual Phoenician–Etruscan dedicatory text. They are the oldest historical source documents from pre-Roman Italy and are rare examples of texts in these languages. They were discovered in 1964 during a series of excavations at the site of ancient Pyrgi, on the Tyrrhenian coast of Italy in Latium (Lazio). The text records the foundation of a temple and its dedication to the Phoenician goddess Astarte, who is identified with the Etruscan supreme goddess Uni in the Etruscan text. The temple's construction is attributed to Thefarie Velianas, ruler of the nearby city of Caere.

Two of the tablets are inscribed in the Etruscan language, the third in Phoenician. The writings are important in providing both a bilingual text that allows researchers to use knowledge of Phoenician to interpret Etruscan, and evidence of Phoenician or Punic influence in the Western Mediterranean. They may relate to Polybius's report (Hist. 3,22) of an ancient and almost unintelligible treaty between the Romans and the Carthaginians, which he dated to the consulships of Lucius Junius Brutus and Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus (509 BC).

The Phoenician inscriptions are known as KAI 277. The tablets are now held at the National Etruscan Museum, Villa Giulia, Rome.

Pallottino has claimed that the existence of this bilingual suggests an attempt by Carthage to support or impose a ruler (Tiberius Velianas) over Caere at a time when Etruscan sea power was waning and to be sure that this region, with strong cultural ties to Greek settlements to the south, stayed in the Etrusco-Carthaginian confederacy. The exact nature of the rule of Tiberius Velianas has been the subject of much discussion. The Phoenician root MLK refers to sole power, often associated with a king. But the Etruscan text does not use the Etruscan word for 'king',, instead presenting the term for 'magistrate', (perhaps modified by a word that may mean 'great'). This suggests that Tiberius Velianas may have been a tyrant of the kind found in some Greek cities of the time. Building a temple, claiming to have been addressed by a god, and creating or strengthening his connections with foreign powers may all have been ways that he sought to solidify and legitimate his own power.

Another area that the Pyrgi Tablets seem to throw light on is that Carthage was indeed involved in central Italy at this point in history. Such involvement was suggested by mentions by Polybius of a treaty between Rome and Carthage at about the same time period (circa 500 BC), and by Herodotus's accounts of Carthaginian involvement in the Battle of Alalia. But these isolated accounts did not have any contemporaneous texts from the area to support them until these tablets were unearthed and interpreted. Schmidtz originally claimed that the language pointed more toward an eastern Mediterranean form of Phoenician rather than to Punic/Carthaginian. But he has more recently reversed this view, and he even sees the possibility that the Carthaginians are directly referred to in the text.

The text is also important for our understanding of religion in central Italy around the year 500 BC. Specifically, it suggests that the commemoration of the death of Adonis was an important rite in Central Italy at least at this time (around 500 BC), that is if, as is generally assumed, the Phoenician phrase bym qbr ʼlm "on the day of the burial of the divinity" refers to this rite. This claim would be further strengthened if Schmidtz's recent claim can be accepted that the Phoenician phrase bmt n' bbt means "at the death of (the) Handsome (one) [=Adonis]." Together with evidence of the rite of Adonai in the Liber Linteus in the 7th column, there is a strong likelihood that the ritual was practiced in (at least) the southern part of Etruria from at least circa 500 BC through the second century BC (depending on one's dating of the Liber Linteus). Adonis himself does not seem to be directly mentioned in any of the extant language of either text.

Phoenician text
The Phoenician inscriptions are known as KAI 277; they read:

 * lrbt lʻštrt,
 * For the Lady, for Astarte,

 * ʼšr qdš ʼz, ʼš pʻl, wʼš ytn tbryʼ wlnš, mlk ʻl kyšryʼ
 * this is the holy place, which was made, and which was placed (by) Tiberius Velianas, king over Kasriye (= Caerites?),

 * yrḥ zbḥ šmš, bmtnʼ bbt.
 * during the month of the sacrifice to the Sun, as an offering in the temple.

 *  wbn tw, kʻštrt ʼrš bdy, lmlky šnt šlš ///, byrḥ krr, bym qbr ʼlm
 * And he built a chamber (or -bn TW = "Tiberius Velianas built (it)"), because Astarte requested (this) from him, year three "3" of his reign, in the month of Krr, on the day of the burial of the divinity.

 * wšnt lmʼš ʼlm bbty šnt km h kkb m ʼl.
 * And (may) the years of the statue of the deity in her temple (be) years like (or "as numerous as") the stars.

The Phoenician text has long been known to be in a Semitic, more specifically a Canaanite language (specifically North Canaanite; South Canaanite dialects include Hebrew, Moabite, and Edomite); hence there was no need for it to be "deciphered". And while most of the inscription can certainly reliably be read, certain passages are philologically uncertain on account of perceived complications of syntax and the vocabulary employed in the inscription, and as such they have become the source of debate among both Semiticists and classicists.

For example, other translations of the final line, besides that cited above, include: "And I made a duplicate of the statue of the goddess  in her temple as do the Kakkabites [?Carthaginians]"; and "As for the red robe of the statues of the goddess  in her temple, her/its red robe is like a those of the gods of the Kakkabites [Carthaginians]" (both of these from Krahmalkov's Phoenician-Punic Dictionary). Further, In Schmidtz's 2016 treatment of the text, he reinterprets the string bmtnʼ bbt (translated above and commonly as "as an offering in the temple") as bmt n' bbt to mean "at the death of (the) Handsome (one) [=Adonis]."

Phoenician vocabulary
Much of the well known vocabulary (from the glossary by A. Bloch, 1890, unless otherwise indicated) of the text is, of course, religious, including rb-t "Lady," ʻštrt  the goddess "Astarte," qdš  "holy," ʼlm  "divinity," bt  "temple, house," zbḥ  "sacrifice," qbr  "burial"; or they involve the calendar or elements of the natural world: ym  "day," yrḥ  "month," šnt  "year(s)," šmš  "sun" (in this context, also a deity), kbb  "stars." Common verbs include šmš "made," ytn  "placed,"  bn  "built," mlk  "rule, reign." Most of the items below not covered in this list are grammatical elements, uncited claims, or reflect earlier scholarship that has now been superseded by newer studies.

Nouns in the text include: bt' , "house, temple" [Semitic *bayt- ], kkb , star [Semitic *kabkab- ] [hakkawkabīm/hakkawkabūm = the-stars], ʼlm , divinity [Semitic *ʼil-  "god"], ʼšr , place, ʻštrt , Astarte [Semitic *ʻaṯtar- ], krr , Churvar [calendar month] [cf. Etruscan Χurvar], kyšryʼ , Caerites [a people], lmʼš , statue (But analyzed by some as the preposition lm "during" plus the relative pronoun ʼš "which"), mtnʼ, gift [Semitic *ntn 'to give'], qbr, burial, rbt', lady [cf. Akkadian rābu "grand, large"] [rabbu, female: rabbatu ], šmš, sun [Semitic *šamš- ], šnt, year [šanot "years" – from: šanāt] , tw, aedicula [taw], yd, hand ym, day [Semitic *yawm-], yrḥ, month [Semitic *warḥu-] [Canaanite: yarhu], zbḥ, sacrifice

Verbs: mlk, to rule, to reign [Semitic *mlk], ʼrš, to raise, bn, to build [ bny ] [wayyiben = [and] he built], bn, to build [ bny ] [wayyiben = [and] he built], mlk, to rule, to reign [Semitic *mlk], pʻl, to make, to do [Semitic *pʻl], ::ytn, to give [Semitic *[y]-ntn] [ya-ntin[u]] he-gives / Hebrew: yittēn

Other: ʼš, which, who, that [rel.pron], ʼz, this [ ha-dha? ], ʻl, over, above [Semitic *ʻal-], b-, in, at, with, on [Semitic *bi-], bn, to build [ bny ] [wayyiben = [and] he built], k-, for, since [Semitic *ki-], km, like, as [ka-ma], l-, to, for [Semitic *la-], qdš, holy, šlš, three [Semitic *ṯalāṯ-], w-, and [Semitic *wa-]

Etruscan text
This partial English translation is generally speculative, following van der Meer, except where noted. Line breaks are indicated with / with line numbers in superscript immediately following. Note that Schmitz has pointed out that "Etruscologists...dispute nearly every word in the Etruscan texts." Other proposed translations are presented in a 2022 article by M. Ivanković.

First plate

 * This temple and sacred buildings (herama-šva) have been requested by Juno Astar(t)e...having been built at his own cost(?),
 * This temple and sacred buildings (herama-šva) have been requested by Juno Astar(t)e...having been built at his own cost(?),

 * Tiberius Velianas ...has given (tur-ce) (it) as an offering(?), (or "according to her own (sal) wishes (cluvenias))
 * Tiberius Velianas ...has given (tur-ce) (it) as an offering(?), (or "according to her own (sal) wishes (cluvenias))

 * (as) custodian(?) of the place(?) of the cella (or "the funeral chamber" tameres-ca)
 * (as) custodian(?) of the place(?) of the cella (or "the funeral chamber" tameres-ca)

 * during the feast (of the month) of Tuler
 * during the feast (of the month) of Tuler

 * when three years (were) full (?) from the day of Tesiamet
 * when three years (were) full (?) from the day of Tesiamet

 * on the feast of (the month) Alsasa
 * on the feast of (the month) Alsasa

 * when the of the  magistrate (was??) (the) great.
 * when the of the  magistrate (was??) (the) great.

 * Indeed, in this sanctuary, the years are (going to be) as many as the stars.
 * Indeed, in this sanctuary, the years are (going to be) as many as the stars.

Second plate

 * When Tiberius Velianas had built the  ("altar(s)"? or "desiderata"?) of  (epithet of ?)

 * he dedicated (šela-ce) an offering during the month of Juno.
 * he dedicated (šela-ce) an offering during the month of Juno.

 * The yearly ( literally "of the years") offerings for the temple were (to be like the) eternal (?) stars.
 * The yearly ( literally "of the years") offerings for the temple were (to be like the) eternal (?) stars.

Notes: Wylin translates (4–5) as "has ratified the offering of the temple." However, Steinbauer (agreeing with Rix) has challenged this assumption and, considering that it seems to be positioned at the beginning of a series of phrases within the contexts of a step-by-step instruction in the Liber Linteus, proposed that (with its variants  and ) simply means "then." The second to last word,, is clearly a plural, so would match the (putative) plural 'star-s' of the Phoenician text in this location. It also occurs in one of the supplementary texts below, as well as in the inscription in the Golini Tomb, but in the latter context, this meaning does not seem to fit.

A minimalist 'translation' drawing only on well established meanings of Etruscan words, and not depending on the Phoenician text (which is often itself uncertain, see above, and is, in any case, not a word for word translation) has been presented by Adiego:

 * This and the, which were ...-ed from the part of , ...ing the , gave to her, the  (or: to his ), to/of the , that from the chamber (?) in the day- , when three years . In the day- the , when of the -magistracy , that , and this(?)/thus...-ed the year  the -s.

 * When Thefarie Veliiunas ...-ed a -offering the month   ...-ed  the -s of the years of the  were.

Etruscan vocabulary
Much of the more certainly defined vocabulary (from the glossary in Pallottino, 1975, unless otherwise indicated) of the text is again, of course, religious, including references to the god uni "Juno," nouns like tmia "temple," vacal "offering, libation (?)," and ilucve "festival"; or they involve the calendar or elements of the natural world: tiur "month, moon," avil "year(s)," pulum-χva "stars" (?). Other well attested words in the text include the number "three" ci, and some common verbs such as turu- "give" and am- "be," and the well known term for "magistrate" zilac-. Most of the rest of the words are contested or uncertain.

Verbs:
 * acna(s), to bring forth
 * am, to be
 * tur, to give ($⟨tur-uc-e⟩$ 'has given')
 * θem, to build, establish

Nouns:
 * astre, Phoenician goddess of fertility,
 * atran, reign, rulership?
 * avil, year ($⟨avilχva-l⟩$ 'of the years, yearly')
 * xurvar, month [Phoenician $⟨krr⟩$ *kurar]
 * meχ, people
 * pulum, star
 * tiur, month
 * tmia, temple ($⟨tmia-l⟩$ 'of the temple')
 * θefariei, Tiberius [Roman male name]
 * uni, Etruscan mother goddess of fertility [cf. Latin Iūno]
 * vacal, votive offering
 * velianas, Velianas [family name].
 * zilac magistrate

Other:
 * ca, this; ica-c and this
 * ci, three
 * nac, when, during, while
 * śnuiu-aφ as many ?(LLZ, col 6, lines 1,2,4)

Inscription on a bronze tablet at Pyrgi
These were much more damaged than the gold tablets above. Cr 4.3:

Cr 4.2

Deities mentioned here include, and.

Inscriptions on vessels found in the sanctuary at Pyrgi

 * 1 ][
 * n32, fragment of a vase, VI

 * (div) patera, or plate V TLE 877
 * (div) patera, or plate V TLE 877

 * (div) patera, or plate V REE 40 n54
 * (div) patera, or plate V REE 40 n54

 * ]/ /
 * (div?) fragment of a vase, or vessel IV REE 56 n31

 * (div)patera, or plate V REE 64 n36
 * (div)patera, or plate V REE 64 n36

 * (div)Greek kylix, V REE 56 n24
 * (div)Greek kylix, V REE 56 n24

MINI MULUVANICE MAMARCE i APUN I IE VENALA (This vessel bears the head of Apuniie)

1 MINI MULUV[AN]ECE AVILE V1PI1ENNAS

1 MINE MULVANICE KARCUNA TULUMNES

1  NULUVANICARIS LEOAIE<6>

1 VEL6UR TULUMNES ESNU ZINAE MENE MUL[VA/| 1 /NICE] /

Lead tablet from the temple of Minerva at Castrum Novum (near Pyrgi) (CIE 6310)
Side 1:

Side 2:

 * ...]
 * ...]
 * ...]
 * ...]

 * ...]
 * ...]
 * ...]

Notes: Words also occurring in the gold Pyrgi Tablets are in bold: "star(s)?;  "sacrifice/libation", or "then";  "when."

Words and sequences recurring within the text include: ?;  ? (ca "this"); "to offer";  "offering" (nun?) "some" (?);  "beautiful";  (demonstrative pronoun);  "be";  ("to do, offer");  (<  "girl"??);  ? (< "as"??).

First printed edition
Colonna, G. – Garbini, G. – Pallottino, M. – Vlad Borrelli, L., '"Scavi nel santuario etrusco di Pyrgi. Relazione preliminare della settima campagna, 1964, e scoperta di tre lamine d’oro inscritte in etrusco e punico”, ArchCl 16, 1964: 49–117.
 * Colonna, G., “I dati dello scavo”: 50–57.
 * Pallotino, M., “Scoperta e prima valutazione delle lamine inscritte”: 58–63.
 * Vlad Borrelli, L., “Nota tecnica sulle lamine”: 64–65.
 * Garbini, G., “L’iscrizione punica”: 66–76.
 * Pallotino, M., “Le iscrizioni etrusche”: 76–104.
 * Pallotino, M., “Conclusioni storiche”: 104–117.

Other references

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 * Bloch, R (1965) "Inscriptions punique et étrusques découvertes à Pyrgi" Paris: La Société. Bulletin de la Société nationale des antiquaires de France, 1965-01, p.41
 * Colonna, G. (2000)  Il santuario di Pyrgi dalle origini mitistoriche agli altorilievi dei Sette e di Leucoteia. Roma; Università degli studi di Roma La Sapienza.
 * Cristofani, M. (1996) “Sulla dedica di Pyrgi”, in E. ACQUARO (ed.), Alle soglie della classicità. Il Mediterraneo tra tradizione e innovazione. Studi in onore di Sabatino Moscati, III, Pisa / Roma: 1117–1126.
 * De Simone, C. (2012) “Il teonimo Šuri: riflessioni ad alta voce”, Mediterranea 9: 107–132.
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 * Eichner, H. (2011) “Anmerkungen zum Etruskischen”, in G. ROCCA (ed.), Le lingue dell’Italia antica: Iscrizioni, testi e grammatica. In memoriam Helmut Rix (1926–2004). Atti del Convegno internazionale (Milano 2011), (= Alessandria V), Alessandria: 67–92 (77–78).
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title: Pyrgi Tablets


text:
Lower Franconia

Lower Franconia (Unterfranken) is one of seven districts of Bavaria, Germany. The districts of Lower, Middle and Upper Franconia make up the region of Franconia. It consists of nine districts and 308 municipalities (including three cities).

History
After the founding of the Kingdom of Bavaria the state was totally reorganised and, in 1808, divided into 15 administrative government regions (German: Regierungsbezirke, singular Regierungsbezirk), in Bavaria called Kreise (singular: Kreis). They were created in the fashion of the French departements, quite even in size and population, and named after their main rivers.

In the following years, due to territorial changes (e. g. loss of Tyrol, addition of the Palatinate), the number of Kreise was reduced to 8. One of these was the Untermainkreis (Lower Main District). In 1837 king Ludwig I of Bavaria renamed the Kreise after historical territorial names and tribes of the area. This also involved some border changes or territorial swaps. Thus the name Untermainkreis changed to Lower Franconia and Aschaffenburg, but the city name was dropped in the middle of the 20th century, leaving just Lower Franconia.

From 1933, the regional Nazi Gauleiter, Otto Hellmuth, (who had renamed his party Gau "Mainfranken") insisted on renaming the government district Mainfranken as well. He encountered resistance from Bavarian state authorities but finally succeeded in having the name of the district changed, effective 1 June 1938. After 1945 the name Unterfranken was restored.

The municipal reform (Kreisreform) of June 1972 consolidated the 22 country districts of Lower Franconia into nine.

Unterfranken is the north-west part of Franconia and consists of three district-free cities (Kreisfreie Städte) and nine country districts (Landkreise).

The major portion of the Franconian wine region is situated in Lower Franconia.

Economy
The Gross domestic product (GDP) of the region was 53.7 billion € in 2018, accounting for 1.6% of German economic output. GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power was 37,500 € or 124% of the EU27 average in the same year. The GDP per employee was 102% of the EU average.

Coat of arms
The coat of arms includes the "Franconian Rake" (the arms of Duchy of Franconia) in the upper portion, the "Rennfähnlein", a banner, quarterly argent (silver) and gules (red), on a lance or (gold), in bend, on an azure (blue) field, associated with Würzburg in the lower left quadrant, and a white/silver wheel on a red field symbolizing the clerical state of Mainz, in the lower right quadrant.

Main sights
Next to the former episcopal residence cities of Würzburg (with Veitshöchheim) and Aschaffenburg, the towns of Miltenberg, Amorbach and Werneck, the scenic attractions of the River Main including the Mainschleife at Volkach and the low mountain ranges of the Rhön with the spa town Bad Kissingen and of the Spessart with Mespelbrunn Castle belong to the major tourist attractions.

Notable people from Lower Franconia

 * Regiomontanus
 * Florian Geyer
 * Tilman Riemenschneider
 * Balthasar Neumann
 * Friedrich Rückert
 * Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen
 * Leonhard Frank
 * Carl Diem
 * Dirk Nowitzki

Institutes of higher education

 * Julius-Maximilians-Universität Würzburg
 * University of Applied Sciences Würzburg-Schweinfurt
 * Hochschule Aschaffenburg

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Lower Franconia


text:
Upper Franconia

Upper Franconia (Oberfranken) is a Regierungsbezirk (administrative [Regierungs] region [bezirk]) of the state of Bavaria, southern Germany. It forms part of the historically significant region of Franconia, the others being Middle Franconia and Lower Franconia, which are all now part of the German Federal State of Bayern (Bavaria).

With more than 200 independent breweries which brew approximately 1000 different types of beer, Upper Franconia has the world's highest brewery-density per capita. A special Franconian beer route (Fränkische Brauereistraße) runs through many popular breweries.

Geography
The administrative region borders on Thuringia (Thüringen) to the north, Lower Franconia (Unterfranken) to the west, Middle Franconia (Mittelfranken) to the south-west, and Upper Palatinate (Oberpfalz) to the south-east, Saxony (Sachsen) to the north-east and the Czech Republic to the east.

History
After the founding of the Kingdom of Bavaria the state was totally reorganized and, in 1808, divided into 15 administrative government regions (German: Regierungsbezirke (singular Regierungsbezirk)), in Bavaria called Kreise (singular: Kreis). They were created in the fashion of the French departements, quite even in size and population, and named after their main rivers.

In the following years, due to territorial changes (e. g. loss of Tyrol, addition of the Palatinate), the number of Kreise was reduced to 8. One of these was the Mainkreis (Main District). In 1837 king Ludwig I of Bavaria renamed the Kreise after historical territorial names and tribes of the area. This also involved some border changes or territorial swaps. Thus the name Mainkreis changed to Upper Franconia.

Main sights
Next to the former episcopal residence city of Bamberg, the capital Bayreuth, the former residence city of Coburg and the classicist centre of Hof, as well as the towns of Lichtenfels, Kronach, Gößweinstein and Kulmbach, the Weißenstein Palace, Banz Abbey and the Basilica of the Fourteen Holy Helpers, the scenic attractions of the River Main and the low mountain ranges of the Fichtel Mountains with the town of Wunsiedel and the Franconian Forest belong among the region's major tourist attractions. There are also numerous spas like Bad Rodach, Bad Steben, Bad Staffelstein, Bad Berneck and Bad Alexandersbad.

Administrative subdivisions
Oberfranken is subdivided into nine Landkreise (districts) and four Kreisfreie Städte (district-free or independent cities). The lowest level is divided into 214 municipalities (including four cities).

Landkreise:
 * Bamberg
 * Bayreuth
 * Coburg
 * Forchheim
 * Hof
 * Kronach
 * Kulmbach
 * Lichtenfels
 * Wunsiedel

Kreisfreie Städte:
 * Bamberg
 * Bayreuth
 * Coburg
 * Hof

Economy
The gross domestic product (GDP) of the region was 40.6 billion € in 2018, accounting for 1.2% of German economic output. GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power was €34,900 or 116% of the EU27 average in the same year. The GDP per employee was 96% of the EU average.

title: Upper Franconia


text:
Middle Franconia

Middle Franconia (Mittelfranken, ) is one of the three administrative regions of Franconia, Germany, in the west of Bavaria bordering the state of Baden-Württemberg. The administrative seat is Ansbach; the most populous and largest city is Nuremberg.

Subdivisions
The region is divided into seven districts ('Landkreise') and five independent cities ('Kreisfreie Städte'). The lowest level is divided into 210 municipalities (including five cities).

Independent cities

 * Ansbach
 * Erlangen
 * Fürth
 * Nuremberg
 * Schwabach

Districts

 * Ansbach
 * Erlangen-Höchstadt
 * Fürth
 * Neustadt (Aisch)-Bad Windsheim
 * Nürnberger Land
 * Roth
 * Weißenburg-Gunzenhausen

History
After the founding of the Kingdom of Bavaria the state was totally reorganised and, in 1808, divided into 15 administrative government regions (German: Regierungsbezirke (singular Regierungsbezirk)), in Bavaria called Kreise (singular: Kreis). They were created in the fashion of the French departements, quite even in size and population, and named after their main rivers.

In the following years, due to territorial changes (e. g. loss of Tyrol, addition of the Palatinate), the number of Kreise was reduced to eight. One of these was the Rezatkreis (Rezat District). In 1837 king Ludwig I of Bavaria renamed the Kreise after historical territorial names and tribes of the area. This also involved some border changes or territorial swaps. Thus the district name of Rezatkreis changed to Middle Franconia.

Main sights
Next to the major city Nuremberg, the capital Ansbach and the former residence city Erlangen, the towns of the Romantic Road Rothenburg ob der Tauber and Dinkelsbühl belong to the major tourist attractions. The Lichtenau Fortress, Rothenberg Fortress, Hohenstein and Cadolzburg belong to the most important castles of Middle Franconia. The Franconian Jura and the northern valley of the River Altmühl are among the scenic attractions.

Coat of arms
For the German Imperial Eagle, see Reichsadler

Economy
The Gross domestic product (GDP) of the region was 78.6 billion € in 2018, accounting for 2.4% of German economic output. GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power was 40,900 € or 136% of the EU27 average in the same year. The GDP per employee was 105% of the EU average.

title: Middle Franconia


text:
Talk:Film format

Whether to add more info here or in separate articles
The photography formats who have an article by themselves do not need more info here

More obscure formats will probably have all available info on this page...

And yes, 70mm cartridges are available from Kodak

Egil 20:01 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)

 * IMHO a lot of articles should be grouped. A rollfilm article describing all rollfilms formats article will be better, an article about medium format should also discuss about small film sheets and the 828 is a 35mm rollfilm.
 * I vote for 110, 126, 135, rollfilms, film sheets, and miniature formats articles.
 * Please stop inserting 645 this is not a film format. I agree for 6x4.5 not for 645. The Mamyia 645 and the Rollei 645 are misleading you. There is no 66 format but ther is a rollei SL 66 camera that is of course a 6x6.
 * Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 20:13, 27 January 2003 (UTC)
 * I know there is no 645 physical format per se. But nowadays the term "645 format" is used quite universally to mean 120 film in 6 x 4.5 cm. IMHO it is a very useful term, and the reader must find it listed along with the real film formats. I'm not inventing this, you know, http://www.hasselblad.com/ says this about their H System:
 * This modular 645-format camera is a feature-packed camera with rapid auto-focus and advanced metering and exposure control.
 * So it is a format. BTW, the 645 format cameras get 16 exposures per film, whereas the marking on the roll is for 15. Better contorl of spacing between images.
 * AFAIK there never has been talk of a 66 format, either. --Egil 20:36 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)
 * Well that's confusing it's not good for an encyclopedia. Anyway it's clear that image format is not film format. Why not 645-format camera like 24x36 camera. This should be discussed in the article(s) but I still disgree in introducing 645 in a list of film formats where 6x6 or 6x9 are not listed.
 * Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 20:51, 27 January 2003 (UTC)

Instant films can be a good article ? Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 20:53, 27 January 2003 (UTC)

Table of formats
The list of formats really needs a table. It is nice to have a good overview of formats, including basic info like type and size. Articles for popular formats should be retained, of course. Egil 07:58 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)
 * Interresting sources :
 * http://members.aol.com/Chuck02178/film.htm
 * http://www.nwmangum.com/Kodak/FilmHist.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 13:50, 28 January 2003 (UTC)
 * I can produce a more complete table of formats this evening - please be patient. -- Egil 15:07 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)
 * I'm working on adding metric size to the table according to my calculations 6x9 cm is in in fact 57x83mm. This lead me to a question did Kodak use metric size rounded in inches or was it the contrary. Halp will be welcome. Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 30 January 2003 (UTC)
 * It varies. Except for the 120, that has become "metricized" through the years (it was originaly specified as 2 1/4 inches) (maybe also the 127 was introduced in inches, I am not really sure) I have tried to use the original units of measurement as far as possible. I think that is an important historic information, since the various formats were ment for different type of cameras and cameras that were known by their size as specified in inches, cm and mm as the case would be. I have s suspicion that simply converting the measurements of many of the ancient formats to an exact mm figure without researching what the exact measurement was, could be quite misleading.
 * But one thing that I would think would be highly informative and wortwhile, was to have a separate table comparing the 'surviving' formats, where exact measurements can be verified. For instance in a table that shows each variant as a row (e.g. one row for 120 6x6, one for 6x4.5, one for 135 24x36, for XPan, for APS, for Minox etc), and then show exact measurements for image size in mm, and also in mm2. The area measurent could even have a column showing the relative size as compared to 24 x 36, for instance. Perhaps also a column for aspect ratio. Just a suggestion, if you would have a look at it. -- Egil 07:01 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

"I have s suspicion that simply converting the measurements of many of the ancient formats to an exact mm figure without researching what the exact measurement was, could be quite misleading." I think so too but I have found some stange facts in trying to this : the 6x6 is 56x56 mm it should be 57x57. The 6x9 has an exact ratio of 1,5 in mm but not in inches. For production purposes Kodak may have cut films from rolls whose size was a multiple of 35mm that's why I suspect size in inches to be rounded from a real size that was metric. Sadly it seems that there's no data published on the metric size of the obsolete formats. Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 08:58, 31 January 2003 (UTC)
 * I don't think you can assume too much here. 2 1/4" converts to 57.15 mm, that is correct. But measuring the actual gate of a 6 x 6 camera you'll find that it is is pretty much exactly 56 mm, so 56 x 56 cannot be far off as the nominal image size. The exact definition is presumably found in the ISO standard referred to in 120 film, but alas I do not have ready access to it.
 * My bronica SQ-A manual states that the frame size is 55.6mm x 55.6 mm. ChrisAitken
 * I also do not think that roll film was a multiple of 35. Yes, that was the case of Edison who saw a roll of 70 and decided that cutting it in two would make a convenient size. Presumably roll film is produced from reasonably large sheets that are sliced, and can presumably conveniently sliced in any width.
 * The primary reason there are so many different negative formats in the early days was that prints were made by contact copying. If you wanted large prints, you'd better get a large camera and film. Egil Egil — Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 31 January 2003 (UTC)
 * I think in the absence of metric data we should keep size in inches except for the 120 and maybe formats discontinued recently.
 * Another thing is important if you have seen negatives from old 6x9 folder you will see that +/- 4 mm doesn't mean anything: the edge of the pictures are never straight lines. With an f/6.3 lens the film doesn't really need to be flat so the real format has sense for an modern camera not for an old.
 * The use of contact prints should be explained somewhere in the article : one format = one camera.
 * Ericd 12:28 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
 * It is, although I used the term contact copying. Perhaps "contact printing" is more commonly used, I don't know. Egil — Preceding undated comment added 13:20, 31 January 2003 (UTC)
 * Sorry I missed this one. — Preceding undated comment added 13:27, 31 January 2003 (UTC)

Instant films
Good reference for instant films : http://www.rwhirled.com/landlist/landfilm.htm#R40 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericd (talk • contribs) 02:30, 6 February 2003 (UTC)

Correction re Kodak 129 roll film
The rollfilm format 3"X2" was introduced by Houghton's Limited, an English Company, and was that of their 'Ensignette No.2' camera which came onto the UK market in 1912. Kodak made their 129 film to fit it about a year later but never themselves made a camera of this format. It is believed that Kodak's response to the Houghton product was their 'Vest Pocket Kodak' and the 127 roll film it used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.174.207.177 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2003 (UTC)

5x7
Is 5x7 slightly different in size in Europe than in the US? I heard the two were not directly interchangeable but can't recall the details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.204.109.180 (talk) 06:36, 20 June 2004 (UTC)

 * No 5x7 is 5x7. The thing is mainland Europe tends to use metric sizes. 13x18 fits 5x7 cameras but needs a different holder. Like wise 9x12 fits 4x5 cameras when used with the right holder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.200.32 (talk) 00:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I think that in general it would be very useful for European readers to add a column with metric sizes. In continental Europe we refer to the same formats by their metric measures, such a table would greatly help localization of this page and reference for European readers. Antaldaniel (talk) 17:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Disc film
Disc film format brought out by Kodak in the mid 80's. Cameras were very thin. Other manufactures were involved at an early stage and at launch films for the format were available from 3M and Fuji. Film was cut from sheet film and put onto a central core. The format was designed to get over the unsharpness of the previous formats such as 110 and 126. Each disc film contained 15 images, actual negative size 10mm x 17mm. First kodak films showed graininess, improvements were made to the film and labelled HR (high resolution). During printing there was back printing to state the negative number of the frame printed. The format died out in the mid nineties — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.24.71 (talk) 09:47, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Missing Formats
I think the list is missing the 50mm and Super 16mm formats.

Link issues
Hi. Is the link to photographic film missing? The first sentence of this article links to film as in movie-film. This article has both movie and still photography film formats, so should it not link to photographic film ? SNx 16:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Girolamo Savonarola 17:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources of information
Regarding the still photography multiple image section- what is the source of this information?

I ask because I found two lists, and, that seem to have some discrepancies between them. (e.g. 103 format has slightly different dimensions). I could have tried to include both in the table, but it makes more sense to figure out which is reliable anyway- assuming that they are independent sources and that one is not just a modified version of the other. Fourohfour 12:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Minox film
Minox film is sold as "9.5mm film", but no one really knows why, since the actual film has always measured from 9.2 to 9.3mm in width (general consensus among Minox user groups is that it was just a convenient marketing number). In fact, 9.5mm wide film will jam Minox cameras. I updated the list to reflect that 9.5mm is the width of the film in name only. I also added that it has been available in 50-exposure rolls in the past. Perhaps this should be in the notes section? 134.117.174.204 (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

110 and 126 Film
I can't see any reason why the table should say that the 126 film format is discontinued since 1995 when it really isn't. The footnote can easily be missed.

Concerning 110 film it seems like the last manufacturer, Kodak, ended producing them recently. I'd change it in the article, but i don't know if an answer from their support agency (though it's published on their site) is enough as a reference?

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=7269&pq-locale=en_US&hidefocus=true —Preceding unsigned comment added by Videokatt (talk • contribs) 21:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * The last manufacturer of 126 cartridges was Ferrania. They stopped making them in 2010 and they are no longer available. Shalom S. (talk) 22:14, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

 * What about the Fukatsu 110 film, both color and black and white? Rolls I have are use by December 2018, though I don't know when they were made, or who made them. Gah4 (talk) 04:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

125 film
The table I added to this page giving the spool lengths is found in various locations around the net, but all seem to derive from the same source. These list 125 as being 3.992" between the flanges; however, I located a camera using this film size, created a film spool to this dimension, and found that it's too long. Not having an original spool to measure, I measured the film path instead, and it came out to pretty close to 3.912, which is as wide as 103 film. Now I'm wondering if that original source had a typo and it was 3.912 all along. I'm going to leave it as is for now (original research and all that), but should I put a footnote that it's possibly inaccurate? Shalom S. (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Unknown frame size
Kodak realized the problem of unknown frame size in designing 126 and later 110. In those, they pre-expose the frame boundaries. Other than those, the camera can generate any image size that fits on the film and doesn't overlap with the appropriate film advance. This does complicate life for printers. Otherwise, as far as "film format" it should only cover what is needed to produce the product as sold. Gah4 (talk) 06:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Sort by area size of the sensor (or rather film used).
Which you could sort them by that! As at the moment it is a bit wonky, as they are measuring it by the length of each side using all kinds of different measurements. Plus of course what one side is, is not quite as helpful as the total area. --103.14.140.76 (talk) 08:43, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

 * What you're looking for can be found at Image sensor format. They also have all common film formats there. --2003:71:4E33:E528:30F1:CC93:C64D:C3F7 (talk) 17:40, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

image sizes
It would be useful to know the width of the film roll in the case of roll film. In addition, it is not clear to me whether "image size" refers to the size of the actual image, or the dimensions x , and if it is, then it's not clear which is which dimension. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.13.67 (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Rapid System and Image Format
The table states that there were 12 exposures worth of film in one Rapid canister. While technically true when the camera exposes 36x24mm images, I personally have never seen one that does - which admittedly doesn't mean there were none. On the other hand I have in my possession two cameras (an Agfa Isomat Rapid and an Agfa Iso-Rapid IF) that use more or less the same transport mechanism and both expose 16 frames of 24x24mm. Also, all the Rapid cameras I have come across so far at flea markets or online auction platform expose 24x24mm frames. (Links to the manuals of the cameras I own: https://www.butkus.org/chinon/agfa/agfa_isomat_rapid/agfa_isomat_rapid.htm and https://www.butkus.org/chinon/agfa/agfa_isorapid_i/agfa_isorapid_i.htm - that's the I, not the IF, but close enough.) 2003:F7:BF16:1B00:219:66FF:FE81:471 (talk) 10:48, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Film format


text:
Severed Heads

Severed Heads were an Australian electronic music group founded in 1979 as Mr and Mrs No Smoking Sign. The original members were Richard Fielding and Andrew Wright, who were soon joined by Tom Ellard. Fielding and Wright had both left the band by mid-1981 with Ellard remaining the sole consistent member for the rest of the band's existence. Throughout the next decade, several musicians joined Severed Heads' ranks, including Garry Bradbury, Simon Knuckey, Stephen Jones and Paul Deering.

In 1984 the band released "Dead Eyes Opened" as a single, which was remixed in 1994 and re-released, reaching No. 16 on the ARIA Singles Chart. Two of their singles, "Greater Reward" (1988) and "All Saints Day" (1989), reached the top 30 on the Billboard Hot Dance Club Songs chart. Ellard disbanded the group in 2007 and continued with other projects. Subsequent Severed Heads reunions have occurred: in 2010 for a 30th-anniversary concert, in 2011 in support of Gary Numan's tour of Australia, again in 2011 at BimFEST in Antwerp, in 2013 with a gig at the Adelaide Festival of Arts and in September 2015 with a tour of the United States for the first time in more than 20 years. In November 2016, Severed Heads played at the State Library of Victoria as part of Melbourne Music Week and in November 2017 they headlined a one-off double act along with Snog at the Corner Hotel in Richmond, Victoria. Severed Heads announced that they would again disband following headlining shows in September 2019.

Early years and independent releases (1979–1982)
In 1979, Richard Fielding and Andrew Wright formed an experimental electronic duo, Mr. & Mrs. No Smoking Sign, in Sydney. By the end of that year, Tom Ellard joined the group. The group issued cassette albums, including Mr. and Mrs. No Smoking Sign Go Cruising fer Burgers! In December 2006, Ellard explained the name change: "[W]e were called Mr. & Mrs. No Smoking Sign, because that was really ugly. Then, we wanted to fool people that we were Industrial and it worked. Severed Heads was a really dumb name, so that’s what stuck. Forever. I hate it by the way."

The group's early music was characterised by the use of tape loops, noisy arrangements of synthesisers and other dissonant sound sources in the general category of industrial music. Wright departed late in 1979, leaving the duo of Ellard and Fielding to put together the band's early studio offerings, including the A-side of a split album, Ear Bitten/No Vowels, No Bowels, with the B-side by Rhythmyx Chymx. Fielding departed the band during the recording of 1981's Clean, leaving much of the work to be completed solely by Ellard.

Severed Heads began incorporating various popular music tropes, such as a consistent 4/4 rhythm, strong melodic lines, resolving chord arrangements and Ellard's thin but gently eerie vocals and elliptical, poetic lyrics. This move was underscored by the incorporation of mimetic devices, such as drum machines and bass synthesisers. The result was a striking hybrid of avant-garde industrial and pop. The group moved their live shows from "experimental venues and art spaces to rock clubs", and they issued the Blubberknife and 80's Cheesecake albums in 1982 after expanding to include synthesiser player Garry Bradbury and guitarist Simon Knuckey. Following the release of these albums, Severed Heads were also joined by video expert and musician Stephen Jones.

Major label years and mainstream success (1983–1998)
1983 saw British label Ink Records issue Since the Accident, which was later released by Nettwerk records in North America and Volition Records in Australia. AllMusic's John Bush described the album as not "quite a crossover effort" with the lead single, "Dead Eyes Opened", being "surprisingly melodic synth-pop." The band's recording deals led to a world tour, which became a multimedia event with the addition of video synthesisers performed by Jones. After the tour, Severed Heads returned to Australia in August 1984. However, this period saw more personnel change for the band. Bradbury had departed during the recording of Since the Accident in 1983 (leaving most of the recording to Ellard) and Knuckey departed soon before the 1984 world tour, so the lineup that went on tour consisted of Ellard, Jones and the newly recruited Paul Deering.

In 1985, Severed Heads issued City Slab Horror, again on Ink Records for the European market. For this album, Bradbury returned as guest musician and contributed to vocals and songwriting. Clashes with Ellard caused Deering to leave the band in order to continue working with Bradbury. In October that year, Jon Casimir of the Canberra Times described the group as "Australia's most innovative electronic band", which had an "obsession with the ugly and horrific" with music "reminiscent of Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle." Local label Volition compiled international tracks for the local-only album Stretcher in November 1985. In August the following year, the band followed with Come Visit the Big Bigot. During that year, Ellard and Jones took Severed Heads on a European and North American tour. Bad Mood Guy was issued by Volition in October 1987. The Canberra Times' Kathryn Whitfield felt the group had "gone way beyond experimental" to provide "a commercially viable product" while Ellard reflected "we have just worked carefully and solidly in an area that we think is good."

Severed Heads peaked at No. 19 in the United States on the Billboard Hot Dance Club Songs chart in 1988 with the 12-inch single "Greater Reward", which later appeared on the album Rotund for Success, issued in October 1989. The album included several remixes by Sydney-based producer Robert Racic, who produced tracks for the band through the late 1980s and early 1990s and contributed to their sound. Another single to make the Billboard chart was "All Saints Day" in 1989, which reached No. 25.

In 1989, Nettwerk and Volition re-released Since the Accident and City Slab Horror, each with tracks from Blubberknife, for the first time on CD. The releases were cut from the original masters resulting in superior quality compared to the original Ink Records releases which Ellard later remarked were "cut from a tape of a tape."

In 1992, one year after the release of Cuisine (With Piscatorial), Jones left the band, leaving Ellard as the group's sole official member. Nettwerk did not renew its contract with the band, leaving Severed Heads adrift in the marketplace. Ellard sought out another label for his next release, Gigapus, in 1994, which was released on Volition in Australia and Decibel Records in the US. Around this time, the band had a major Australian hit with a remixed version of "Dead Eyes Opened", which samples Edgar Lustgarten reading from Death on the Crumbles. Both Volition and Decibel soon folded, and once again, Severed Heads were unaligned with the traditional music industry, and they did not fully own the rights to their music. This changed in 1998 when Sony Music released claims to Volition material.

Later years and subsequent releases (1999–2007)
With his music back in his hands, Ellard began developing an independent music system, entirely Internet-based, at sevcom.com. During the early 2000s, Ellard developed several innovative products, such as the Sevcom Music Server, a subscription-based ambient music distribution system.

Ellard has worked on a side project, Coklacoma, that released a few albums in the late 1990s and early 2000s. By 2004, he was heavily involved with developing video but increasingly felt that the Severed Heads label was a thing of the past, and in 2008 opted to jettison the name. Ellard also worked extensively during the 1990s with other Sydney-based electronic musicians and groups such as Paul Mac (of Itch-E and Scratch-E) and Boxcar, former alumni of the now-defunct Volition label, as well as with the Lab.

Dissolutions and reunions (2008–2019)
In early 2008, Ellard announced that Severed Heads were now defunct and that no further creative output would be released under the name. However, the band was reformed by Ellard and new member and longtime friend Stewart Lawler for a 30th-anniversary show on 14 January 2010 as part of the annual Sydney Festival, and in May 2011 the group supported Gary Numan in a tour celebrating the 30th anniversary of Numan's album The Pleasure Principle. In a May 2011 interview, Tom Ellard explained: "Some people thought it was a bit rude of me to just shut it down without a proper farewell tour and so we decided we would drag it out just one more time and say our toodly-doodly’s." On 22 October 2011, Severed Heads played what was intended to be their final performance in Australia at the Joan Sutherland Performing Arts Centre. At BimFEST 2011 in Antwerp, they performed what was billed as their "absolutely final" performance as Severed Heads. However, Ellard and Lawler performed what was again intended to be a final gig at the Queen's Theatre during the Adelaide Festival of Arts in 2013, a concert that was recorded by Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Since 2014, several older Severed Heads albums have been released on vinyl via Medical Records and Dark Entries, such as Since the Accident and City Slab Horror. 2016 saw the release of the Beautiful Arabic Surface 10" acetate dub plate, which contained the first newly recorded Severed Heads tracks since their announced hiatus in 2008. The single was released through Bughlt Records in a limited edition of 45 copies.

Renewed interest in the band resulted in a seven-date American tour in September 2015, their first performances in the United States in over 20 years. Following these tour dates, the project remained active with new recordings, further reissues and live performances.

Severed Heads again split up after a string of headlining shows in the US in September 2019. On the band's Bandcamp page selling the Living Museum live compilation, they stated: "The 2019 shows were the last bye bye for Severed Heads in Australia, Europe and the USA, and we thank all the people who came out to see us off. We look forward to 2020 and new nilamox* STUFF."

Influence
Vancouver-based industrial band Skinny Puppy was influenced by early Severed Heads material. A relationship was formed between the bands which led to Severed Heads being signed to Nettwerk Records and a joint 1986 North American tour. Tom Ellard was known to have participated in some of the band's "brap" sessions, leading to production and performance credits on the Skinny Puppy songs "Assimilate" and "Chainsaw" (on Bites and the Chainsaw single, respectively.)

Members

 * Final lineup
 * Tom Ellard - vocals, bass, keyboards, synthesisers, electronic percussion (1979–2008, 2010–2011, 2013, 2015–2019)
 * Stewart Lawler - synthesisers (2010–2011, 2013, 2015–2019)

 * Former members
 * Richard Fielding - synthesisers (1979–1981)
 * Andrew Wright - synthesisers (1979)
 * Garry Bradbury - synthesisers, electronic percussion, vocals (1982–1983; guest musician - 1984–1985)
 * Simon Knuckey - guitars (1982–1984)
 * Stephen Jones - synthesisers, video synthesisers (1982–1992)
 * Paul Deering - synthesisers (1984–1985)

Discography

 * Ear Bitten/No Vowels, No Bowels (1980)
 * Side 2 (1980)
 * Clean (1981)
 * Blubberknife (1982)
 * Since the Accident (1983)
 * City Slab Horror (1985)
 * Come Visit the Big Bigot (1986)
 * Bad Mood Guy (1987)
 * Rotund for Success (1989)
 * Cuisine (With Piscatorial) (1991)
 * Gigapus (1994)

 * Haul Ass (1998)
 * Contoured Simulation (1998)
 * Airconditioning Your Productivity (1999)
 * Gashing and Kato (2001)
 * Op1.0 (2002)
 * Cubical Broadcasts (2002)
 * Controlling Time (2003)
 * Op2.0 (2004)
 * Op2.5 - Millennium Cheesecake (2005)
 * Under Gail Succubus (2006)
 * Op3.0 (2007)

ARIA Music Awards
The ARIA Music Awards is an annual awards ceremony held by the Australian Recording Industry Association. They commenced in 1987.

! Ref.
 * 2005
 * ''The Illustrated Family Doctor
 * Best Original Cast or Show Album
 * Won
 * Won

title: Severed Heads


text:
Talk:Band gap

Old converstion between Tim and Dgrant
I think that image could be better. I don't think having multiple gaps all over the place really helps explain it. --User:Dgrant

 * *shrug* -- Tim

 * So you think that your picture is the best possible picture and that we shouldn't strive to get a better one, should one exist? --User:Dgrant

 * No, "shrug" as in "whatever". As far as I'm concerned it's just a matter of opinion, so I wasn't prepared to argue it. If you want to change it to something better, I won't stop you.

 * Great. Well, if I have time to find something more suitable, I'll put it on.  Actually, I find the whole copyright thing annoying so I'll probably drawn one instead.  --User:Dgrant

I just realized that I think I might have deleted some significant chunks in my recent edit of the Band gap article. I just finished reading the Wikipedia most common faux pas, and apparently is it not good to delete lots of material. --User:Dgrant

 * Hell no. In fact, I'm pretty annoyed at the overall quality of your recent edits. Your two new articles (direct bandgap and indirect bandgap) were not introduced properly, and were too hard to understand for someone who didn't already know it. Plus they were conceptually wrong - silicon absorbs light quite well, despite its indirect bandgap. And you don't use GaAs for fibre lasers, you use erbium doped glass.

 * Hmm, I wasn't too thrilled with the quality of the article when I first read it, which is why I made some changes. In fact many parts of it were rather shoddy.  For example:

 * "An arbitrary figure can be chosen - say, 3 eV, above which the material will be called an insulator." hmmm....an arbitrary figure can be chosen??

 * Point taken.

 * "Band gap decreases with increasing temperature, due to thermal expansion" due to thermal expansion???  WTF

 * It's true. If you want to explain it better, fine. I didn't put it back in because I forgot, not because I disagree with it. Readers have asked about temperature dependence before (see Talk:Bipolar junction transistor), which is why I mentioned it. -- Tim

 * Actually you are right, it is true. I wasn't thining hard enough about that.  I can't think of how to better explain it right now.  Perhaps just saying that the bandgap is related to the lattice spacing, and that changes with temperature...  --User:Dgrant

 * You clearly agree that these were not entirely correct as you did not put them back into the text word-for-word. So perhaps instead of attacking my changes you could have perhaps said something nice.  (read Wikipetiquette).

 * I'm quite within my rights to get annoyed when you yourself break the rules by reducing the size of an article and adding incorrect information. And I couldn't simply revert your article because that would have been in breach of the very rules you violated. You added some extra information, I was obliged to make sure that extra information remained. -- Tim

 * In the direct-bandgap article, I wasn't referring to a "fibre laser", and my original wording was "fibre-optic laser", which clearly implies a laser using in fibre-optics (communications), not a fibre laser. To be more clear, however, it should have read "solid-state laser for use in fibre-optics".  --User:Dgrant

 * Expect some edits from me over the next hour or so. I'll try to fix what you've done. BTW, does the "most common faux pas" article mention leaving off signatures in talk pages? -- Tim (original article author)

 * Hmmm, it's interesting that you signed "original author" stating that you were the original article author. I thought this kind of thing didn't matter on Wikipedia.  -- User:Dgrant

 * I'm rather protective of pages I start. Call it a character flaw. -- Tim

I'm actually wondering now if that figure is even correct at all. Did you get it from a source, or draw it yourself? It might actually be good to show one of those classic figures where they show the difference between a metal, insulator, and semiconductor, insofar as the bandgap. --User:Dgrant

 * I got it from lecture notes, so it's not very reliable. You made a good point about mobility. But I hadn't heard the one about number of carriers at melting point before. The usual definition (used obliquely in insulator) is conductivity at zero K. -- Tim

 * The mobility point I made was not explained very well. I used the phrase: "significant amount of carriers" which is again kind of vague.  I only brought up the melting point issue because we want to talk about temperatures at which the material is in solid state, but I think that just makes it more confusing...  The more I think about it, the more hard I think it is to define what an insulator is...  Actually, conductivity at O K is a difficult thing to look at as well.  Semiconductors become insulators and superconductors become VERY conducting....    --User:Dgrant

I think this statement is a bit vague: "In many devices this kind of conductivity is undesirable, and larger bandgap materials give better performance". I think we should say, "In a device, this kind of conductivity is better..." where is an example of one of these devices. --User:Dgrant

 * Fine, go for it. Just remember: make it better, don't delete it. -- Tim

Audience ?, conductivity undesirable ?
Just a couple of nit-picky points I would like to make. The first one is that I'm confused as to who we are aiming the article at. You explain that "e" is the exponential "function" yet just state chemical formulae (GaAlAs etc.) without explanation. If you assume the target reader is newbie enough to not know what "e" means in the expression, they are unlikely to know what some of those chemicals are. Secondly, this phrase seems to make no sense to me whatsoever: "Conductivity is undesirable, and larger band gap materials give better performance." Conductivity is what makes, for example, the internet possible. I fail to see how conductivity can therefore be undesirable! That sentence needs either removing or a big revision to make clear exactly what is meant, particularly making reference to what situations high conductivities are undesirable. I understand that some people will find some of this very nit picky, but it's something I've picked up from my project supervisor! :P Lateralis 19:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Charge Carrier Question
"The only available carriers for conduction are the electrons which have enough thermal energy to be excited across the band gap,"

Is this correct? It is my understanding that the conductivity of intrinsic semiconducter material is due to thermally generated electron-hole pairs so that the charge carriers are an equal number of electrons (in the conduction band) and holes (in the valence band). Alfred Centauri 16:20, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, if you want to nit-pick. -- Tim Starling 09:48, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

how do we knows emiter and collecter of a transister?

 * See transistor -- Tim Starling 09:48, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Band Gap Question
It would be really nice if someone would explain where the band gap arises from. It has something to do with the periodic potential (in the free electron model it disturbs the free-electron energy band -> bragg reflection creates the bonding and antibonding states at the edges of brillouin zones and the energy gap is the "area" between bonding- and antibonding state energies at the edge) but why aren't there any quantum states in the gap? Would be really helpful. Sorry for my english, hope you can understand :) --Risto 28.1--Tiresais 17:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)0, 2005

to Risto; the bandgap is the electron-conductance of material as defined by its atomic structure, where:

e (-Eg/kT)

e is the exponential function Eg is the band gap energy k is Boltzmann's constant T is temperature

Electron transfer is dependant upon two points material band gap and temperature.

 * Yes, I do know that the atomic structure defines the size of the bandgap, I do know that the probability for an electron to be at a certain state is given by Fermi-Dirac distribution, but what I'd like to know is where the band gap arises from quantum mechanically. Or didn't I just understand what you tried to say :) --Risto

 * Only two electrons can occupy one energy band in quantum mechanics. The proximity of atoms in a solid mean that there must be many levels bunched together (otherwise how could the electrons exist?). The closeness of these levels give rise to the appearance of 'bands' of energies within which electrons can occupy. In insulators and semi-conductors, energy is reqiured to free the electron from the valence bands in the lattice, hence the band-gap is the energy to free the electrons from the lattice structure. Is that the answer you were looking for?--Tiresais 14:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't make the original question, but you explained it pretty clear I think! As to his last question: "but why aren't there any quantum states in the gap" - The answer is of course that it wouldn't be a gap of there were (occupiable) states in it! But I would like to rephrase the question as: What, from a QM point of view, determines the size of the bandgap? Is it purely atomic structure? I would think it has to do with the ease in which orbitals can be mixed, or is that incorrect? Is there some general rule to understand this? -- Mipmip 08:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Presumably the size of the band gap depends on how strongly an electron is held in the lattice structure of the material. MY A level course didn't cover what effects this strength, however. sorry I can't help any further... Might be worth checking round related articles in lattice structure and bond strength. --Tiresais 17:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Boron nitride
Please would someone good at editing tables add the band gap for cubic boron nitride to the table of band gaps. Thanks DFH 17:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. Maaf 23:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Disputed definition
The definition provided here is incomplete, as it only refers to the definition of band gap as it relates to semiconductor physics. Band gaps also refer to any particle or quasiparticle, not just electrons. For example, photons (see photonic crystal) and phonons both exhibit band gaps for certain materials. I suggest the definition be altered to
 * In solid state physics and related applied fields, the band gap, also called an energy gap or stop band is a region where a particle or quasiparticle is forbidden from propagating. For insulators and semiconductors, the band gap generally refers to the energy difference between the top of the valence band and the bottom of the conduction band.

See Google's scholarly articles for phononic or photonic crystals. --h2g2bob 20:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Your phrasing is fine by me. This whole article is an ugly duckling; you'd think it would mention the concept of periodic potential, Bloch's theorem, the Kronig Penny model, and the Pauli exclusion principle from which the model of forbidden and allowed energy bands arises...  It was probably written by people with mostly electronics and very little physics background. -- mattb

Remove table
I've removed the big table of band gaps (diff). It was unsourced - so there is no way of knowing if it is accurate or even if it is a copyright violation. --h2g2bob 18:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Article is difficult to understand
Got my answer here instead. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Solids/band.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.200.212 (talk) 01:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The above link is more useful than this wiki page. As for this wiki page; sometimes no information is more useful than poor information. At least if there were no page here, maybe someone who knew the theory well would think to him/herself, "No one has done anything here, maybe I should..."Eliasds (talk) 03:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

 * It's quite a common problem with wikipedia articles on complex subjects. These articles are often written by students or those with a private interest in the subject and as such there's a desire to go over the top in demonstrating your own knowledge. The aim of writing an article, of course, isn't to prove how clever you are or how many long words you can use, it's to communicate complex ideas in a way that people with little background knowledge of the subject can understand. Sometimes that gets overlooked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.174.51 (talk) 17:50, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Infrared and ultraviolet
Which is the band gap for infrared light ?. And for ultraviolet ? --Nopetro (talk) 13:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

 * There's no answer to that question. Light does not have a band gap. Only materials can have a band gap. --Steve (talk) 12:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

intro seems to be at odds with first paragraph
why does it say it's the energy difference between the bottom of the valence band and top of the conduction band in the intro, but it reverses top and bottom in the first paragraph of "in semiconductor physics"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.121.57.249 (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

 * It seems to have been fixed. --Steve (talk) 12:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Mathematical concept
The population of states here is described with Maxwell Boltzmann, but we are talking about electrons/holes. Therefore, shouldn't it be Fermi-Dirac statistics? That also connects directly to why the Fermi-level's probability of being filled is 1/2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.14.132.20 (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

 * You're right. Indeed that whole subsection has no useful and correct information that helps people understand the concept of "band gap". I deleted it. (I'm not totally opposed to having some discussion of the Fermi-Dirac distribution in this article in the future, but it might as well be rewritten from scratch.) --Steve (talk) 12:00, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Should we have a paragraph on LEDs
Should we have a paragraph on LEDs since there is one on Photovoltaic cells ? If so perhaps also the table of band gaps could note which are direct or indirect, and possibly any major applications of the material eg LEDs or PV cells ? - Rod57 (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Hmm, I would change it to a section called "implications for light absorption and emission" that says something like "Semiconductors tend to absorb and emit photons with energy above the bandgap, and be transparent for photons with energy below". The implications of this include the fact that diamond is transparent while silicon is opaque, why bandgap matters for solar cells, and why bandgap matters for LEDs and lasers. Just my opinion, not very well thought through. I do like the idea of saying somewhere the obvious fact that bandgap affects the color of LEDs and lasers if we don't already. --Steve (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

yes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.166.73.238 (talk) 08:38, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Band gap


text:
Book of Tobit

The Book of Tobit is an apocryphal Jewish work from the 3rd or early 2nd century BCE which describes how God tests the faithful, responds to prayers, and protects the covenant community (i.e., the Israelites). It tells the story of two Israelite families, that of the blind Tobit in Nineveh and of the abandoned Sarah in Ecbatana. Tobit's son Tobias is sent to retrieve ten silver talents that Tobit once left in Rhages, a town in Media. Guided and aided by the angel Raphael he arrives in Ecbatana, where he meets Sarah. A demon named Asmodeus has fallen in love with her and kills anyone she intends to marry, but with the aid of Raphael the demon is exorcised and Tobias and Sarah marry. Tobias and Sarah then return to Nineveh, where Tobit is cured of his blindness.

The book is included in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox canons and the Dead Sea Scrolls, but not in the Jewish Masoretic text. Protestant tradition places it in the Apocrypha, with Anabaptists, Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists recognising it as useful for purposes of edification and liturgy, albeit non-canonical in status.

The vast majority of modern commentators recognize it as a work of fiction with some references to historical events. The story is set in the 8th century BCE, but the book itself is thought to date from between 225 and 175 BCE. No scholarly consensus exists on the place of composition, but a Mesopotamian origin seems logical given that the story takes place in Assyria and Persia and it mentions the Persian demon "aeshma daeva", rendered "Asmodeus". However, the story contains significant errors in geographical detail (such as the distance from Ecbatana to Rhages and their topography), and arguments against and in favor of Judean or Egyptian composition also exist.

Structure and summary

The book has 14 chapters, forming three major narrative sections framed by a prologue and epilogue:
 * Prologue (1:1–2)
 * Situation in Nineveh and Ecbatana (1:3–3:17)
 * Tobias's journey (4:1–12:22)
 * Tobit's song of praise and his death (13:1–14:2)
 * Epilogue (14:3–15)

(Summarised from Benedikt Otzen, "Tobit and Judith").

The prologue tells the reader that this is the story of Tobit of the tribe of Naphtali, deported from Tishbe in Galilee to Nineveh by the Assyrians. He has always kept the laws of Moses, and brought offerings to the Temple in Jerusalem before the catastrophe of the Assyrian conquest. The narrative highlights his marriage to Anna, and they have a son named Tobias.

Tobit, a pious man, buries dead Israelites, but one evening while he sleeps he is blinded by a bird which defecates in his eyes. He becomes dependent on his wife, but accuses her of stealing and prays for death. Meanwhile, his relative Sarah, living in far-off Ecbatana, also prays for death, for the demon Asmodeus has killed her suitors on their wedding nights and she is accused of having caused their deaths.

God hears their prayers and the archangel Raphael is sent to help them. Tobias is sent to recover money from a relative, and Raphael, in human disguise, offers to accompany him. On the way they catch a fish in the Tigris, and Raphael tells Tobias that the burnt heart and liver can drive out demons and the gall can cure blindness. They arrive in Ecbatana and meet Sarah, and as Raphael has predicted the demon is driven out.

Tobias and Sarah are married, Tobias grows wealthy, and they return to Nineveh (Assyria) where Tobit and Anna await them. Tobit's blindness is cured, and Raphael departs after admonishing Tobit and Tobias to bless God and declare his deeds to the people (the Israelites), to pray and fast, and to give alms. Tobit praises God, who has punished his people with exile but will show them mercy and rebuild the Temple if they turn to him.

In the epilogue Tobit tells Tobias that Nineveh will be destroyed as an example of wickedness; likewise Israel will be rendered desolate and the Temple will be destroyed, but Israel and the Temple will be restored; therefore Tobias should leave Nineveh, and he and his children should live in righteousness.

Significance
Tobit is a work with some historical references, combining prayers, ethical exhortation, humour and adventure with elements drawn from folklore, wisdom tale, travel story, romance and comedy. It offered the diaspora (the Jews in exile) guidance on how to retain Jewish identity, and its message was that God tests his people's faith, hears their prayers, and redeems the covenant community (i.e., the Jews).

Readings from the book are used in the Latin liturgical rites of the Catholic Church. Because of the book's praise for the purity of marriage, it is often read during weddings in many rites. Doctrinally, the book is cited for its teachings on the intercession of angels, filial piety, tithing and almsgiving, and reverence for the dead. Tobit is also made reference to in chapter 5 of 1 Meqabyan, a book considered canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

Composition and manuscripts
Tobit exists in two Greek versions, one (Sinaiticus) longer than the other (Vaticanus and Alexandrinus). Aramaic and Hebrew fragments of Tobit (four Aramaic, one Hebrew – it is not clear which was the original language) found among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran tend to align more closely with the longer or Sinaiticus version, which has formed the basis of most English translations in recent times.

The Vulgate places Tobit, Judith and Esther after the historical books (after Nehemiah). Some manuscripts of the Greek version place them after the wisdom writings.

Canonical status
Those books found in the Septuagint, but not in the Masoretic text are called the deuterocanon, meaning "second canon". Catholic and Orthodox Christianity include it in the Biblical canon. As Protestants came to follow the Masoretic canon, they therefore did not include Tobit in their canon, but do recognise it in the category of deuterocanonical books called the apocrypha.

The Book of Tobit is listed as a canonical book by the Council of Rome (AD 382), the Council of Hippo (AD 393), the Council of Carthage (397) and (AD 419), the Council of Florence (1442) and finally the Council of Trent (1546), and is part of the canon of both the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Catholics refer to it as deuterocanonical.

Augustine (c. AD 397) and Pope Innocent I (AD 405) affirmed Tobit as part of the Old Testament Canon. Athanasius (AD 367) mentioned that certain other books, including the book of Tobit, while not being part of the Canon, "were appointed by the Fathers to be read".

According to Rufinus of Aquileia (c. AD 400) the book of Tobit and other deuterocanonical books were not called Canonical but Ecclesiastical books.

Protestant traditions place the book of Tobit in an intertestamental section called Apocrypha. In Anabaptism, the book of Tobit is quoted liturgically during Amish weddings, with "the book of Tobit as the basis for the wedding sermon." The Luther Bible holds Tobit as part of the "Apocrypha, that is, books which are not held equal to the sacred Scriptures, and nevertheless are useful to read". Luther's personal view was that even if it were "all made up, then it is indeed a very beautiful, wholesome and useful fiction or drama by a gifted poet" and that "this book is useful and good for us Christians to read." Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England lists it as a book of the "Apocrypha". The first Methodist liturgical book, The Sunday Service of the Methodists, employs verses from Tobit in the Eucharistic liturgy. Scripture readings from the Apocrypha are included in the lectionaries of the Lutheran Churches and the Anglican Churches, among other denominations using the Revised Common Lectionary, though alternate Old Testament readings are provided. Liturgically, the Catholic and Anglican churches may use a scripture reading from the Book of Tobit in services of Holy Matrimony.

Tobit contains some interesting evidence of the early evolution of the canon, referring to two rather than three divisions, the Law of Moses (i.e. the torah) and the prophets. For unknown reasons it is not included in the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, although four Aramaic and one Hebrew fragment were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, indicating an authoritative status among some sects. Proposed explanations have included its age, literary quality, a supposed Samaritan origin, or an infringement of ritual law, in that it depicts the marriage contract between Tobias and his bride as written by her father rather than her groom. Alternatively, allusions to fallen angels and its thematic connections with works such as 1 Enoch and Jubilees may have disqualified it from canonicity. It is, however, found in the Greek text of the Septuagint, from which it was adopted into the Christian canon by the end of the 4th century.

Influence
Tobit's place in the Christian canon allowed it to influence theology, art and culture in Europe. It was often dealt with by the early Church fathers, and the motif of Tobias and the fish (the fish being a symbol of Christ) was extremely popular in both art and theology; this is normally called Tobias and the Angel in art. Particularly noteworthy in this connection are the works of Rembrandt, who, despite belonging to the Dutch Reformed Church, was responsible for a series of paintings and drawings illustrating episodes from the book.

Scholarship on folkloristics (for instance, Stith Thompson, Dov Noy, Heda Jason and Gédeon Huet) recognizes the Book of Tobit as containing an early incarnation of the story of The Grateful Dead, albeit with an angel as the hero's helper, instead of the spirit of a dead man.

The story of Tobit inspired also the oratorio Il ritorno di Tobia (1775) by Joseph Haydn.

title: Book of Tobit


text:
Asmodeus (band)

Asmodeus is an Austrian black metal band founded in 1996.

History
Tyr and Desdemon began the band as a project called Diabolus. After the first permanent line up was assembled, the name was changed to Asmodeus.

In late 1998, Tyr (guitars), Desdemon (bass, vocals), Dargoth (guitars), and Harth (drums) recorded their first demo, Supreme Surrender. Harth and Dargoth then left the band, and were replaced by Lestat (guitars) and Ashrak (drums). After their first shows in Austria, Asmodeus recorded their second demo, As the Winter Moon Bleeds.

The group toured with bands including Satyricon, Behemoth, Hecate Enthroned and Rebaelliun, becoming more popular in the black metal underground. In November 2000, the third demo was recorded and released. Lestat then left the band, and Naroth joined as the new guitarist.

Phalanx Inferna, Asmodeus' first full-length album, was released via Twilight Records. Due to the positive response to the album, Asmodeus were invited to perform at a variety of national and international concerts in 2004. In April 2005, the first tour through Europe took place with Belphegor, Arkhon Infaustus, and In Aeternum. Naroth couldn't play the tour and left the band, and was replaced by Azazel. Following the completion of the tour, Ashrak left the band as well. A long search for new permanent members began, and in October 2005 a new drummer, Malthus, was recruited. Asmodeus later recorded Imperium Damnatum with T.T. of Abigor in December 2005 at Infinite Sounds Studios.

Their new album Adamant was specially released in a woodpak (CD case made of wood) at the Austrian label Talheim Records. A digipak, vinyl version and a few shows are planned.

Studio albums

 * Phalanx Inferna (2003, Twilight Vertrieb)
 * Imperium Damnatum (2006, Twilight Vertrieb)
 * Adamant (2018, Talheim Records)

Demos

 * Supreme Surrender (1998)
 * As the Winter Moon Bleeds (2000)
 * Embers of Aeon (2001)

Compilations

 * Twilight Sampler (2006)

Current members

 * Tyr - guitars (1996–present)
 * Desdemona - bass, vocals (1996–present)
 * Azalea - guitars (2006-2009, 2012–present; touring 2005–2006)
 * Nordger - drums (2010–present)

Former members

 * Harth - drums (1996-1999)
 * Dargoth - guitars (1996-1999)
 * Ashram - drums (1999-2005)
 * Lestat - guitars, backing vocals (1999-2002)
 * Naroth - guitars (2002-2005)
 * Malthus - drums (2005-2010)
 * Garm - guitars (2010-2012)

title: Asmodeus (band)


text:
Talk:TNT (disambiguation)

Disambiguation page or redirect?
Should this be a disambiguation page instead of a straight redirect to Trinitrotoluene? There's also Turner Network Television. -- Paul A, 24 Jan 2003 6:55 (UTC)

 * Done —Mulad, May 29, 2003

The transport logistics company
Anyone know what TNT (the transport logistics company) stands for? I heard a rumour that it was Australian for "Thompson Nationwide Transport", but Google doesn't seem to confirm this. -- SGBailey 21:57, 2005 Feb 6 (UTC)

 * It does indeed stand for THOMAS NATIONWIDE TRANSPORT LIMITED. Look up the ASIC website to find the history of Australian company names. Dankru 22:45, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The bomb
Why isn't it listed? I don't get it. TheBlazikenMaster 11:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. If you feel something is missing on the dab page, add an article link. And the first entry links to Trinitrotoluene, an explosive chemical. Do you mean that? – sgeureka t•c 10:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. TheBlazikenMaster 12:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed name change
I notice that TNT (TV channel) is used for the US channel and TNT (TV station) for the Australian one. While I've added a dab line to both these, isn't it confusing- and bad style- to separate the articles by an arbitrary and non-indicative choice of "station" vs. "channel" (which effectively mean the same thing in this context), rather than (e.g.) "(American TV channel)" vs. "(Australian TV channel)".

Is there a naming convention for TV stations/channels- I couldn't find one, but my gut reaction is that one or the other would be preferred?

Ubcule (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Oppose The Australian TNT is a station and not a channel as it broadcasts mostly Channel Seven but also some Channel Ten content. TV stations are the broadcaster of a channel in Australia. Bidgee (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you opposing *any* name change? I didn't intend it as a strict two-choice yes/no option, but as a discussion. Let's assume that what you say is true and that definition applies to Australia. Even if worldwide readers could be expected to know the Australian meaning, the title in itself doesn't include "Australia" or "Australian", so it's not clear that this definition applies until you read the article anyway(!) On the other hand, if "Australian TV station" and "American TV channel" were included in the title it would be clear anyway. Ubcule (talk) 18:21, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Primary meaning (Disambiguation page or redirect?)
Revisiting this again (see above). I consider Trinitrotoluene the primary topic, I propose TNT is a redirect to it, and this DAB moves to TNT (disambiguation) per WP:MOSDAB. Do others agree with that primary meaning? Widefox ; talk 11:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Agree. I was just noticing last night how awkward the first bit of this page looks, and thought, "Isn't that the primary topic?" And then, Why isn't that the primary topic? Thanks for bringing this up.--NapoliRoma (talk) 18:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. Cleaned up. Note the categories may be better arranged, by putting the TV channel and logistics company close to the top, I had to rearrange them a bit. Widefox ; talk 11:25, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

WP:TNT?
I added WP:TNT because I saw it referenced here [], and it was deleted by here []. Is there a better way to include this info than the way I did it? It should be somewhere on this page, so people looking it up like I did can find it more easily.Timtempleton (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My take is that in general, mainspace should have as few references to Wikipedia as possible. (Which is pretty much what WP:SELFREF says, although there is no guideline there on linking or not linking to WP: space that I can see.)  The vast majority of Wikipedia readers are not active editors, and the vast majority of active editors will not be looking for this particular essay in mainspace.
 * Adding non-encyclopedic links to disambiguation pages is counter to the principle of brevity; it makes it incrementally harder for people to navigate to the page they're actually looking for.--NapoliRoma (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:TNT (disambiguation)


text:
Talk:List of computer scientists

Unsigned and undated comment (pre-November 2012)
In case the wording at the top of this list is not strong enough, this list should be for research scientists, not anybody with a CS degree and not random progammers. They should also be notable - either a mile-long list of CS publications and/or a significant accomplishment, although the accomplishment can be non-computer-science related, for instance a memorable quote, best-selling SF books, longest motorcycle jump, etc.

 * Actually no - it's not strong enough because that's NOT the title of this list. The title is "...computer scientists" - NOT RESEARCH scientists.  And no, the word scientist does not automatically denote those involved in research.  If the desire is to include only those who do research, then I suggest changing the title accordingly. Aleding (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion
What should one do if a computer scientist or other academic suspects that an article or entry was created by a former or current student? Can the subject of the article request its deletion because of possibility of conflict of interest (although he/she was not aware of the article when it was created and did not influence its contents)? Docfeinman007 (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Gï¿½del
I don't think a strong argument could be made that Gï¿½del was a computer scientist (any more so than Georg Cantor or David Hilbert). Someone want to prove me wrong Chadloder 06:55 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

 * On first glance I would agree with you. --Robert Merkel

Herman Hollerith
I added Herman Hollerith who was not a research scientist at all; but his work on punched card machines was an important (perhaps the only) step between Babbage & Lovelace before him and the theoretical work and analogue computers that came after him. --Sewing 18:12, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

comment
Euler, Hertz, and Leibniz were computer scientists? Huh? If I'm just overreacting, let me know, but I think these should be removed Dysprosia 23:20, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * I agree. Mathematicians specializing on computation theory can be "honorary computer scientists" :-), like Boole and Church, but the list should be really really short. Stan 05:06, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * Disagree. Computer Science exists for some hundred years, even though it was not called CS in those days. Graph theorie is one of the most important parts of CS and exists just because of Euler. Leibniz was specialised in computing machines. Of course he is "computer scientist". In case of Hertz, he is more an engineer than an computer scientist. 82.82.128.94 14:28, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Per Brinch-Hansen
"Per Brinch-Hansen" is listed. "Brinch Hansen", not "Brinch-Hansen", is his surname, per book he wrote around 1970. (Someone may want to think about the overall approach of the list; my edit is the best way i can come up with for handling within this format.) --Jerzy 05:49, 2004 Jan 29 (UTC)

Mark Zukerberg
What about Mark Zuckerberg? He is obviously not a computer scientist (Unless we want to include the gang of Gates, Jobs, Page, etc. here as well). Zzarch (talk) 07:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

 * I deleted Mark Zuckerberg, who is definitely not a research scientist. Ionocube (talk) 07:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Linus
I don't think Linus really qualifies as a computer scientist, since I don't think he's done any research. He's already on the programmers lists, that should be good enough. Stan 05:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Delinking annotations
While annotations on the list are good reminders of who's who when you're looking for someone, I don't think there's much need to link all the terms in the annotation lines. They aren't that useful, because the bios have that, and it means that the "what links here" for every major topic includes this list, irrelevant at best. Stan 05:02, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Who is 'junrex gonzales'?
I noticed that this name is in lower case and was about to change it to title case, but decided to double check it first. I did a Google search and can find no evidence of the existance of this computer scientist. Maybe the name here is spelt differently to his actual name. Does anyone know who he is or is this name a spam addition to the article? Big Mac 00:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I've deleted junrex as a suspected hoax. -David Schaich 18:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Red-linked names
I'm going to assume that like most wikipedia lists, we don't want items in the list until they've been shown to be notable enough to have an article to link to. That is, this list should not be the place for notability decisions. So I'm taking out the red-linked individuals. Dicklyon 16:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Selection criteria?
Should this list contain all computer scientists who are notable enough to have a wikipedia article? If not, who should be included? Category:Computer scientists + subcategories contain many people not on this list, and most of them are known for something. — Miym (talk) 18:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Computer Scientists by Gender
In case anyone is interested, 524 (88%) of the 594 listed are men, and 70 (12%) are women. Scientists with names that could be either men or women (such as Lee and Robin) were carefully checked for gender using Wikipedia. Here is the raw data: http://MenAssociation.com/article/ComputerScientists

CICorporation (talk) 21:31, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of computer scientists


text:
Donald Johanson

Donald Carl Johanson (born June 28, 1943) is an American paleoanthropologist. He is known for discovering the fossil of a female hominin australopithecine known as "Lucy" in the Afar Triangle region of Hadar, Ethiopia.

Early life and education
Johanson was born in Chicago, Illinois to Swedish parents. He is the nephew of wrestler Ivar Johansson.

He earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign in 1966 and his master's degree (1970) and PhD (1974) from the University of Chicago. At the time of the discovery of Lucy, he was an associate professor of anthropology at Case Western Reserve University. In 1981, he established the Institute of Human Origins in Berkeley, California, which he moved to Arizona State University in 1997. Johanson holds an honorary doctorate from Case Western Reserve University and was awarded an honorary doctorate by Westfield State College in 2008.

"Lucy"
Lucy was discovered in Hadar, Ethiopia on November 24, 1974, when Johanson, coaxed away from his paperwork by graduate student Tom Gray for a spur-of-the-moment survey, caught the glint of a white fossilized bone out of the corner of his eye and recognized it as hominin. Forty percent of the skeleton was eventually recovered and was later described as the first known member of Australopithecus afarensis. Johanson was astonished to find so much of her skeleton all at once. Pamela Alderman, a member of the expedition, suggested she be named "Lucy" after the Beatles' song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds," which was played repeatedly during the night of the discovery.

A bipedal hominin, Lucy stood about three and a half feet tall; her bipedalism supported Raymond Dart's theory that australopithecines walked upright. The whole team including Johanson concluded from Lucy's rib that she ate a plant-based diet and from her curved finger bones that she was probably still at home in trees. They did not immediately see Lucy  as a separate species, but considered her an older member of Australopithecus africanus. The subsequent discovery of several more skulls of similar morphology persuaded most palaeontologists to classify her as a species called afarensis.

Johanson and Maitland A. Edey won a 1982 U.S. National Book Award in Science for the first popular book about this work, Lucy: The Beginnings of Humankind.

"First Family"
AL 333, commonly referred to as the "First Family", is a collection of prehistoric homininid teeth and bones of at least thirteen individuals that were also discovered in Hadar by Johanson's team in 1975. Generally thought to be members of the species Australopithecus afarensis, the fossils are estimated to be about 3.2 million years old.

Awards and honors

 * In 1976, Johanson received the Golden Plate Award of the American Academy of Achievement.
 * In 1991, the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSICOP) awarded Johanson their highest honor, the In Praise of Reason award.
 * On October 19, 2014, Johanson gave the second annual Patrusky Lecture.
 * On October 24, 2014, Johanson accepted the "Emperor Has No Clothes" award at the Freedom From Religion Foundation 37th annual convention.
 * Asteroid 52246 Donaldjohanson, a target of the Lucy mission was named in his honor. The official was published by the Minor Planet Center on December 25, 2015 (M.P.C. 97569).

Other activities
Since 2013, Johanson has been listed on the Advisory Council of the National Center for Science Education.

title: Donald Johanson