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Talk:Median lethal dose

LD50 of H2O
As I stated in my edit summary, the reference doesn't state an exact number. It may be that they were unable to produce a statistically significant result in testing, or it may be that they were unable to kill any rats at all even at extreme levels--though that's really just speculation and doesn't belong in the main article. Anyway, is it useful to keep this questionable number in the table? Preferably, a better source should be found, but the typical chemical companies I use don't have that number in their MSDSs. Also putting "check" tag on the number. 128.138.64.70 (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

POV?
This article seems to be slanted towards the animal rights movement, e.g. putting "controversy" at the top, and the only links pointing to "Animal Testing" and "Vivisection" (which in its own right is a fairly pejorative term). LD50 is a value arrived at through animal testing, true, but if this article is to be considered the norm then all drug pages should have links to "the horrors of vivisection"...62.56.126.163 20:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah, the animal rights section should probably go after the basic concepts, and I hate 'controversy' sections - there's almost always a better title. Hopefully it's a little better now, though it could still do with external links on other angles of this topic. --Calair 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The references relative to the sentence in the introductory part: "In 2011 the U.S. [...] as they relate to humans." do not provide any scientific evidence of lack of reliability in animal testing. For this reason the part of the sentence declaring:"[...] in response to research, cruelty concerns, and the lack of validity and sensitivity of animal tests as they relate to humans" must be removed. --AL458 (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Should LD50's of substances be given in Wikipedia?
There is at least one drug (fentanyl) for which the wikipedia entry has LD50 info. Agreed, recreational fentanyl users are usually hardcore types (I was one, in the early 1980s!). But there are so many OTC medications or easy-to-get-a-prescription-for medications for which the LD50 is much lower than what laypersons think, otherwise there would be lots more successful suicide attempts. Which don't occur because most people with suicidal feelings think that "if you can kill yorself relatively painlessly with something, it must be hard to get".)

 * Putting information on Wikipedia pages would be good, as wikipedia is an encyclopedia, although i think it would be necessary to add a small warning somewhere on page where the  is included that they should not solely depend on this information and especially not if they intend to use it as a 'rubric' for consumption. -- Neur 0 X  . talk 00:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I think listing data for substances would be appropriate, but only if we're careful about verifiability and qualification.  values always depend on several qualifiers - mode of administration, subject species, and (very often) an extrapolation from animal results to humans, for instance. It often has political implications, and even without those, it's human nature to pick the most most impressive (i.e. most lethal) possible interpretation of the data. IMHO,  data should only be presented if it states the relevant measurement circumstances and is directly supported by an appropriate source. --Calair 07:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have seen that almost all blokes on the usenet [incl rec.drugs.hard] are responsible enuff not to give out this info. Ditto for the web. I hope that wikipedians also will refrain from providing LD info for substances not-too-hard-to-get. I dont think that info belongs to a general-purpose encyclopedia (or, indeed, to any easy-to-access source).

23:53, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)mp from Calcutta India

looking up LD50's on a substance requires 2 things, knowing what a MSDS is and knowing the chemical name or the chemical composition of a drug. Neither of these are hard to come by. I don't think LD50's should be listed on wikipedia, not because people would use it to commit suicide, but because Wikipedia is not a Chemical info warehouse. There are ALOT of compounds, naming them all I believe are outside the scope of this site, let alone provide detailed information. Maybe wikifoundation could setup a WikiMSDS site or something... (MSDS stands for Material Safety Data Sheet, which usually contains the LD50 dosage, but this is changing as LD50 is being phased out because of animal cruelty) --ORBIT 04:49, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * if we have an article on a chemical known for it's toxicity then we should include the LD50 (cyanide arsnic and the like). If not then it probably isn't relvant.Geni 18:17, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

IMO there should be a list of most toxic (eg. botulin) and least toxic materials (carbon, water...) and their LD50 values (if applicable)... As for the dangers of listing them, well, quick Googling can probably find them anyways. - G3, 16:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Dangers or no dangers, Wikipedia has no responsibility to nanny people. We don't need to care if people could try to kill themselves with this information, simply because most people won't. The fact that shooting yourself in the head is rather deadly isn't exactly privileged information either. --217.91.122.24 (talk) 08:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed text
I removed this passage from the introduction:

''Two species are normally required to be involved in the testing. A feeding syringe is forced down the animals’ throats, injecting into the stomach a chemical ingredient of the product, or the product itself, often household cleaners or gardening products like weedkillers. The forced feeding increases in amount until half the animals are dead, after experiencing vomiting and convulsions. Technicians note quantity required to kill 50% of the animals, and then the survivors are killed. No harmful effects are measured, just the lethal dose.''

I did so because as it stood it was misleading; its position in the introductory section gives readers to understand that this description applies to all LD50 testing, which it certainly does not. For one thing, the methodology described would only provide a LD50 for ingestion - this might be useful for evaluating toxicity of a consumer product, but not for investigating (e.g.) a snake venom or an injected/inhaled anaesthetic. For another, while many toxins will cause vomiting and convulsions, this isn't universal. And whether harmful effects are measured depends very much on the researchers in question.

This material might be elsewhere in the article, if accompanied by information providing some context on just whose experimental process it's describing, but it doesn't belong in the intro. --Calair 03:14, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm also quite concerned about the POV of the removed statement. I'm not exactly an encyclopaediac source, but it seems a bit fallacious to claim that household cleaners and weedkillers are 'often' used, without some sort of citation. I also doubt the claim presented as fact that they experience vomiting and convulsions, as my gut feeling tells me this cannot be the case all the time. 80.7.199.165 16:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

In the Limitation section, the sentence: "Another weakness is that it measures acute toxicity only (as opposed to chronic toxicity at lower doses), and does not take into account toxic effects that do not result in death but are nonetheless serious (e.g., brain damage)." is a mere nonsense, as LD50 test is not aimed to measure nonlethal toxicity in specific organs. It should be removed.--AL458 (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

What when LD-50 information is wrong or misleading...
The LD-50 given for Acetaminophen/Paracetamol is from rat tests and is nearly 2 grams per Kg, yet folks routinely commit suicide with doses under 25 grams. In fact the UK doesn't allow supermarkets to sell more than 16 tablets at a time because of the suicide risk. The gap between reality and the posted LD-50 should be addressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Wagstaff (talk • contribs) 21:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The LD-50 given for fentanyl is 3.1 mg/kg. The dosage administered by one of those duragesic fentanyl patches, total (since this is what the patch contains) is between 2.5 mg and 10 mg. This is administered over 48-72 hours.

Only people who are opioid tolerant are supposed to get the 75 ug/hour and the 100 ug/hour strengths of the patches.

Now, one might presume that an adult would weigh at least 40 kilograms, so a 10 mg dose would be an eighth of a mg/kg/day. And yet that dosage can still be fatal.

I know of one case where an abuser had to be taken to the hospital because of respratory depression after consuming 10 mg in a single dose. He was normal sized and not completely narcotics naive.

I know the point is not to promote recreational drug use, and I know that there are other issues, but someone trying to size a dose might die in short order at 10th the listed LD-50, and probably would at 1/2 the listed LD-50.

Simicich 00:16, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 * This isn't really the place to ask such a question, try the reference desk. But you understanding of LD50 appears flawed. A dose significantly below the LD50 isn't necessarily a safe dose. The LD50 is simply the dose at which 50% of the test population dies. Clearly some will die at a lower dose, they don't all suddenly die when given the LD50. Depending on the substance in question, people's reactions could vary significantly.

 * Also your calculations are incorrect. If a 40kg individual received 10 mg, that's 1/4 or 0.25mg/kg. If the LD50 is 3mg/kg, this will be about 1/10 of the LD50 and I don't think anyone would suggest this would be a safe dose or a good idea without further information. I definitely don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest 1/2 of the LD50 could be considered a safe dose...

 * Finally, remember the LD50 is the LD50 in whatever animal was used for testing. Just because the LD50 is 3mg/kg in rats or whatever, doesn't mean it'll be the same in humans. Also, remember it's important to consider the method if administration. If you're talking about the oral LD50, then using this for patches which administer subdermally I assume is a very bad idea. The LD50 is arguably a useful measure to have but they aren't an end all and it's important to understand what they are. In your case, I would suggest the Lowest published lethal dose or LDLo is a more useful figure to consider.
 * Nil Einne 10:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Plutonium
Removed this text: ''Similarly, in the case of certain metalic elements, plutonium in particular, the LD 50 is properly expressed as µg/kg, or even as nanograms/kg. About 1 µg of plutonium, if inhaled, is presumed to be probably a lethal dose, in the long term, because it is known that it will promote and almost guarantee lung cancer.''

As per discussion on plutonium, there is a lot of dubious information about plutonium toxicity doing the rounds without citing any good sources; AFAICT, a lot of it ultimately seems to have come from Heinlein's fiction story The Long Watch.

This article estimates the cancer risk from inhaling 1 µg of reactor-grade plutonium dust at around 1/200 (for Pu-239, around 1/1300) and cites several other sources that yield similar numbers. Markedly lower numbers need to be supported with citations. --Calair 04:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

OK; but I doubt you'd be willing to inhale some plutonium dust. Or would you? Show us all how brave you are. :)

 * Depends. How much is 'some'? --Calair 00:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I recall a Dr Cohen (probably Samuel, probably not the same Cohen) who proposed building an extremely radioactive wall, or trench, around Israel. It would kill anyone who went near it, to defend that country against its enemies. I hadn't read too many ideas that were crazier than that one. He was a scientist. I believe he worked at Los Alamos. It made me think of Dr Edward Teller and his insane idea, that the world could survive even a full-scale thermonuclear war; no problem.

I'm inclined to believe that *some* pro-nuclear scientists (like scientists who work for the food, drug or tobacco industry, or really any field where there is money to be made) have agendas that can make their scientific judgement suspect.

 * This is one of the reasons why we don't take science on trust. Scientists are expected to show how they got their results, so other scientists can examine their reasoning and attempt to reproduce the data that supports it. It doesn't entirely eliminate the problem of vested interest, but it goes a long way to reduce it; this is why controversial claims need citations. --Calair 00:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

For example. In the 1950's, one of the Atomic Energy Commission's top scientists began promoting the term "sunshine unit", to describe exposure to nucleotides and radiation. Like it was no more worrisome than getting a suntan. We all know that by the 1960's, fallout had become such a serious problem that it led to the end of above-ground nuclear testing.

However: point taken. I accept your edit. It was really a point about *units*, anyway. I gave plutonium as an example. Thanks for your explanation, but I don't think you need to reach as far as SCIENCE FICTION to express your objection. lol -- Stellar-TO

Come on, that image is horrible.Improfane 01:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

LCt50
It is usually expressed in terms of mg-min/m³ or ppm

I removed 'ppm' because the units don't match - ppm is a concentration, whereas LCt50 is a concentration * time. This may have been a typo for ppm*min, but I don't know for sure. Will also change 'usually' to 'often' since I don't know whether mg-min/m^3 qualifies as 'usually' without this second unit. --Calair 03:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Database for LD50 values
Is there a general database for all (almost all?) known LD50 values for all tested chemicals? -Samulili 10:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Some MSDSes will contain that information, and I think the Merck Index might also contain LD50/LC50 values for a wide range of chemicals. I don't know of a specific LD50 database, though. --Calair 01:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Semilethal dose
Removed semilethal dose from the intro, I work with chemicals and haven't heard the term "semilethal dose" being used for LD50. It is also very misleading as it is a fully lethal dose for 50% of the population, while semilethal could be read as sublethal. Dictionary.com for example uses the term "median lethal dose" which is more accurate. Sad mouse 00:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * It's not the most common term, but Googling finds quite a few hits that aren't just mirrors of Wikipedia; searching PubMed for 'semilethal dose' found five hits, e.g. "The effect of intravenous endotoxin (Sal. abortus equi) in a semilethal dose in rats was very individual" & "Total number of red blood cells, their acid resistance, deformability and fragmentation were studied in rats after intramuscular injection of a semilethal dose of viper poison".

 * Searching Pubmed gives 18625 references for LD50, of the 5 references in Pubmed for semilethal dose three (including the one you cite) are non-English papers, and the other two referred to the genetic term semilethal and not to LD50s. Sad mouse 01:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * However, note that the genetic usage has a very similar meaning: a mutation that causes at least 50% mortality. --Calair 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The genetic usage is not really similar at all. Regardless, the point remains that Pubmed references use "median lethal dose" not "semilethal dose"

 * "Sufficient to cause 50% mortality" is pretty similar, IMHO. --Calair 05:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually semilethal can be used in genetics for a gene which is lethal sometimes, but not always, and does not have to be 50% of the time . Anyway, not a big deal, the current wording is fine, personally I wouldn't even bother to qualify with the "non-English speaking" part. Sad mouse 17:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Furthermore, a google search gives 76,200 results for "median lethal dose", 2,470,000 for LD50 and only 773 for "semilethal dose". Of those 773 hits, most (488) appear to just contain the phrase "LD50 or colloquially semilethal dose", others are actually referring to a sublethal dose (ie, a dose at which none die, such as 164 hits referring to the radiation references). Sad mouse 01:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Can you point me at some of the articles that use it to mean a sublethal dose? I've come across several that use it in connection to radiation, but all that I've checked seem to be using it to mean LD50. For instance, US Patent #5008199 refers first to "X rays at a dose of 630 rad almost corresponding to the LD50" and then to "a semilethal dose of 630 rad". (The same patent also refers to a "semilethal dose" of an injected substance.)

 * I don't have time to look this up, it is a minor correction that I made. This reference for example uses semilethal where it means sublethal . And again, google has very few references for semilethal and lots of median lethal dose.Sad mouse 04:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not contesting the fact that 'median lethal dose' is far more commonly used than 'semilethal', only the contention that 'semilethal' is not used. --Calair 05:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Other examples:

 * Website on Hiroshima Day: "It is said that 50% of persons who receive a whole body dose of 400 rad, which is known as a semi-lethal dose die, and that those exposed to whole body radiation of 700 rad or more have little chance of escaping death... The location that was exposed to the lethal dose of 700 rad was a point approximately 925 meters away from the hypocentre (in Hiroshima); and in the case of the semilethal dose of 400 rad, approximately 1,025 meters."

 * 'The trigger to cell death determines the efficiency with which dying cells are cleared by neighbours', Cell Death and Differentiation, July 2001: "...we examined engulfment following death induction with DNA damage-dependent and -independent stimuli. Etoposide induces apoptosis as a consequence of DNA damage, whereas the kinase inhibitor staurosporine induces programmed cell death even in anucleate cells. 293 cells exposed to a semilethal dose of etoposide for 48 h exhibited a more than 10-fold increase in phagocytes (cells containing one or more phagosomes) compared to controls..." This one doesn't specifically identify it with LD50, but since it's certainly not talking about a sublethal dose - the whole point is to kill cells - that's presumably what they mean.

 * I'm certainly not claiming that it is a common usage, but it is out there. It does seem to be the case that it mostly (not always) appears as a result of translation from non-English originals but I don't see that that makes a difference; if it's used in publications intended for an English-speaking audience, then that's a usage that should be acknowledge. --Calair 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * So we leave in the sentence saying it is another term, and try to clarify, like my edit did, yes?Sad mouse 04:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that 'semilethal' is ambiguous, but then that's why Semilethal dose redirects here, to a page which removes the ambiguity. Given that it is used elsewhere, better that we explain it than not. --Calair 00:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Then maybe the intro could say that it is sometimes referred to as a semilethal dose, but this term is misleading. The reason I clicked on LD50 was because the feature article today inferred the amount of thujone in absinthe was safe because it was below the LD50, whereas that is only evidence that less than half the population would be killed by it. Misleading, I think you'll agree. Sad mouse 01:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No, it didn't. It inferred that it was safe because it was much below the LD50; while that's not a completely cast-iron conclusion, it's far more reasonable than it would be without that 'much'. --Calair 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually it is a completely usage conclusion, because an LD50 says nothing about the dose at which 10% of the population dies, for example. Anyway, are we happy with how it currently is written? Sad mouse 04:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * While knowing LD50 doesn't give us an exact figure for LD10, it gives us a great deal more than nothing - both a hard upper bound (LD10 can't be more than LD50) and a fair bit of probabilistic information beyond that. While variability of effects is different from one substance to another, it's not enough so to stop us from concluding that the LD10 is unlikely to be greater than 0.95x or less than 0.001x the LD50.

 * I think there are some problems with the discussion there (will tackle that over on absinthe if I get the time) but they look to be more to do with chronic vs. acute exposure issues than with the issue of variability of effect.

 * I'm quite happy for the article to deprecate 'semilethal dose'; I have some quibbles over the wording (it's not clear to me that 'semilethal' is a particularly misleading term for something that's lethal to half a population) but IMHO, the main thing that needs fixing is that the definition should go first. Will edit accordingly; see what you think. --Calair 05:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Are you using median as in statistics? Does it apply to LD50?
 * The PubMed usage might be that they took it from abstracts written by non-native English speakers.
 * Thus, I would stick with the usage and definition by MeSH while you consult with the staff of the NLM about the correct term. For the sake of full disclosure I'm not a user of LD50 but I have deleted another mistaken definition that equated it to half-life. Jclerman 01:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, as in statistics, which is how LD50 is determined. As above, the term semilethal dose is not used in a single English-language articles in Pubmed to refer to LD50, while >500 articles use "median lethal dose" to refer to LD50. In light of the google search, semilethal dose should probably be taken out completely, it doesn't seem to be used.Sad mouse 01:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Note that PubMed searches only pick up words contained in the abstract; the Cell Death & Differentiation paper I mentioned above, for instance, is indexed in PubMed but doesn't show up on a search for 'semilethal'. That paper is in English, written by five UK-based scientists and published by a UK-based journal, which IMHO is reasonable evidence that 'semilethal' is indeed used, albeit infrequently. --Calair 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Added LD50 template
since it seems rather tedious to write out in it's html/wikified form, I made a template in which when you wish to say  you simply type  -- Neur 0 X. talk 00:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

ED50
The official standardized method to measure the LD50 is described well under the OECD-methods 401, 402 and 403. The LD50 is a statistical value obtained on biological material. Consequently it has mostly a broad standard deviation.

It might be an idea to mention the ED50 (Effictive dose, 50%) in here as well. This is the amount of a substance that gives the desired therapeutic effect. If these are in same page the LD50/ED50 ratio should also be mentioned, it is a good indicator of how easy it is to take an accidental overdose.

"LD50"-values in human.
One faces often an confusing (confused) values of LD50 in humans. For instance: "LD50 of batrachotoxin: estimated at 1 to 2 µg/kg in humans." Now, it is certainly possible to extrapolate some biochemical/toxicological research values to get an "estimated LD50 in human", but is it of any worth? Moreover, often the "LD50" dose is beeing unintentionally interchanged with the lethal/fatal dose in human (so often exaggerated use of specific expert terms by general public or media, sometimes even inappropriate use of these terms by an expert). That is, f.e., from the information, that a 300 mg dose of potassium cyanide ingested killed an 75 kg individual, is concluded, that the "oral LD50 in human" is 4 mg/kg. I think, that it is not right to mention an LD50 dose in human, unless it is really found out by an LD50-experiment (which is, beside some Nazi crimes during WW2, almost certainly not), because: a) it is almost never plausible enough precise, because not based on realistic, controlled experiments; b) it is of no practical value; even if an LD50 value for a specific chemical/poison was known, it would have no effect on medical and/or forensic aspect of the toxicity of substance/poisoning by substance; in most poisonings, intensive/specific medical care is needed even if LD10, LD1 or LDLo are ingested/resorbed. On the other hand, even a LD99 dose must not be inevitably lethal in an individual. I would suggest the more appropriate and rational use of terms "estimated LD in human" (which could be anything from LD10 to LD99), or "LDLo".--84.163.109.162 12:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I think the answer here is to enforce Verifiability. If we have a reliable source that lists a human LD50 figure, we can cite it (although it would be good to indicate how that figure is derived - I agree that extrapolated values are very unreliable). If we don't have a citeable source, the claim shouldn't be in the article. --Calair 12:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree; however, I still think that the use of "estimated human LD" is more appropriate, reality-close and relevant.--84.163.109.162 12:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree too, but we need some exact values. Why have there been NO controlled LD50 experiments in humans? Someone should perform one sometime. --Whoop whoop pull up (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Toxicology Task Force
Just wanted to announce the creation of a new Toxicology Task Force under WikiProject Medicine. Feel free to come and sign up. Thanks -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Removed line

 * LD50 still remains popular, despite its general weakness in providing a useful measure of toxicity.

The weaknesses of LD50 are adequately described in other sections. Where it was placed, this implied that the animal cruelty concerns outweighed the value of the measurement, which would be an unsourced judgement rather than a statement of fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.165.106 (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

LSD human LD50
How was this site not a good source for the human LD50 of LSD? --Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty 00:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

seems to be a solid reference which correlates perfectly with the data the CIA produced in the 50s and 60s 121.99.56.29 (talk) 20:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

This reference is a dead link. Woudl love to see an oral dose for LSD to compare with e.g. MDMA and Psilocybin. Intravenous is not relevant to LSD :( MarmotteiNoZ 02:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Why...
...is Ionizing radiation in the list? Since it can't be directly compared, via mg/g, it is only confusing and offers no understanding to the article topic. I would simply remove now, but perhaps there is a good reason that I just haven't deduced, and wanted to hear it before I simply deleted that entry. Dennis Brown (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * True it can't be directly compared to the other entries, but you can have a median lethal dose of radiation. Another entry on the list, ADBAC, lists mg/L (concentration in the aquatic environment instead of in the body), which also can't be directly compared to other entries on the list (it also has a mg/kg value).  I can see the rationale (though not a real need) for removing it from the table, but it probably should stay in the article.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:47, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it took less than a year, so the talk page is faster than ArbCom ;) I will defer to your superior experience here.  I had forgotten about this question entirely.  Thanks for answering and pinging me.  Dennis Brown -  2¢    ©   Join WER 10:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My 2 cents is that it should agree with the page on Gray (unit) which says: "A whole-body acute exposure to 5 gray or more of high-energy radiation usually leads to death within 14 days." However, since nothing is cited in either place, perhaps more info is needed. thx 8 August 2016

sorting table by LD50
I started formatting the table so that it could be sorted by LD50 before I saw that it was listed in decreasing order of LD50. This should be unnoticeable for the reader, except that now about 1/3 of the values in the LD50 column will sort correctly whereas previously ~0 would. I'll leave it where it is rather than continuing to make an unnecessary change or undoing work that might be useful later.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

what happened to all those http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk sources?
Seemed these sources are no longer working. It has stated: "The University of Oxford Department of Chemistry MSDS web resource is no longer being maintained. Since this resource provided safety information it is not appropriate that the MSDS web resource is still used as a reference resource. The manufacturers and suppliers have a legal duty to provide and maintain MSDS information for the chemicals that they sell. Please refer to the suppliers web pages for safety information and data sheets."--Inspector (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately it seems that their robots.txt didn't let archive.org archive them either. Anyone know of any other sources or mirrors of them? SubTenebra (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

source 32 directs to a webpage that does not load
source 32 directs to a webpage that does not load — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.65.96.146 (talk) 21:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Time to semi-protect this page for a while?
IPs seem to be repeatedly incorporating a link to a cartoon. Suggest semi-protect this page to prevent this. Lesion ( talk ) 14:35, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Links Dead
All the references to MSDS are dead now, and it seems like they have been since 2011. Either remove the references or try provide another resource. (at this point this concerns reference numbers 7, 12, 14, 15, 16, 21, 22, 35, 36,37 and 40 (that's a lot)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.189.227.94 (talk) 03:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Typical probability distribution
Is there a typical probability distribution that can be derived from just the LD50 value and that works for most toxins? If so, this should be stated in the article. If not, of what value is LD50 alone? --Mudd1 (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Revert of redirect to lethal dose
I note this article was deleted and redirected to median lethal dose, removing some content. Acknowledging the need for bold edits, by user:Emily Temple-Wood (NIOSH) who is a wikipedian in residence, deleting such significant amounts of content, and merging content needs at least some discussion on talk pages. 2001:44B8:21B:8F00:D1A0:8003:7AF8:7DA (talk) 12:49, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi anon, sorry it took me so long to get back to you - I've just gotten back from vacation and I had a bit of a backlog to catch up on. There was a discussion involving User:DePiep and others who I can't recall right now on Template talk:Chembox about merging the content. If I left something out while merging that wasn't duplicated elsewhere, please feel free to add it back. :) Best, Emily Temple-Wood (NIOSH) (talk) 20:51, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * re IP: No you cannot claim back-in-time discussion in this. When you say 'significant amounts of content' were deleted without you linking to them, that's not enough (but this illustrated that you do know what I am talking about). You do do can open a fresh talk on it. Good quotes or diffs wold make your case stronger. (To be clear: you post here did not give me a clue about your issue). -DePiep (talk) 21:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

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LD50 table does not sort correctly
I noticed that when sorting by LD50 it does not sort in numerical order, but instead considers each value as a character string and sorts them alphabetically. For example, 2 mg/kg is sorted as lower than 300 mg/kg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YuliEuphemism (talk • contribs) 18:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Okay, What I did to get the table sort functional was:

 * 1) I had to remove the ">" and "<" tags to get a correct sort. I initially added [data-sort-type="number"], but this did not correct the problem.  I figured that the ">" and "<" tags were redundant anyway, as what would be their real purpose in a statistical table?  Possibly multiple "prefix" tags are a solution?

 * 2) I added [class=unsortable] to the third and fifth columns. I could not find a way to sort the third column.  The units were the primary impediment, as "mg", "ug", and "ng" do not sort properly.  The fourth column exactly prescribes the proper solution for this predicament, so that is the only one that should be allowed to be sorted.  The fifth column sort is redundant.

 * Someone probably will have more expertise than me, and have a more elegant way to deal with this.

 * 200.68.142.36 (talk) 22:26, 30 June 2019 (UTC) baden k.

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Nicotine is present twice
Is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GianoM (talk • contribs) 08:17, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Median lethal dose


text:
Talk:Asia

Islam
Some sources (Operation World) put Islam as the largest Asian religion at 26.4% Is there a reason why your source is undercounting or not including the Middle East? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.224.92 (talk) 10:27, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Lead first sentence
I feel like the first sentence of the lead is a bit clunky. I propose it should be changed from this:

Asia (/ˈeɪʒə/ (listen), also UK: /ˈeɪʃə/) is a continent which is part of Eurasia.

to this:

Asia (/ˈeɪʒə/ (listen), also UK: /ˈeɪʃə/) is a continent which, along with Europe, makes up the landmass Eurasia.

Thoughts? 216.207.176.186 (talk) 00:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

*UNSD Map incorrect
The map for Asia by the UNSD is incorrect. Iran is under South Asia, not west Asia. See reference.

https://unstats.un.org/unsd/methodology/m49/ Ricemaster12 (talk) 01:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Afghanistan
As Taliban government is not recognised in UN, then Wikipedia must show tricoloured flag (black, red and green) of Afghanistan. Zaki Frahmand, 10 August 2023, 13:48 AEST

Transcontinental Countries
Countries such as Turkey, Azerbaijan, Goergia, Russia and Kazakstan are transcontinatal and Wikipedia have to show only area of the country belong to Asia. Zaki Frahmand, 10 August 2023, 13:47 AEST

Mistake in the listing of countries
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not independent contries. They are breakaway regions of the Republic of Georgia. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Georgia!!! 185.70.54.84 (talk) 10:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2024
An outdated info- The Republic of Artsakh has been fully taken by Azerbaijani forces in September 2023, and its governing authority was proclaimed to dissolve in 1 January 2024. But the state is still listed amongst the contemporary state groups. AyunaKawai (talk) 13:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 17:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Several supportive sources as following:
 *
 *
 *
 * AyunaKawai (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Geardona (talk to me?) 00:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This has been actioned by another user. CMD (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Geardona (talk to me?) 11:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Geardona (talk to me?) 11:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2024
Ahoj ja som denis mam velky kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.217.32.82 (talk) 11:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Not done: Your request doesn't make sense.InTheAstronomy32 (talk) 00:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Flag
Hello, I personally think an image of the unofficial flag of Asia should added to the template content Here is the flag:- File:Flag of Asia.png BuddyHeigh (talk) 17:44, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Do you really feel that there is value in presenting the independent work of one "Zrcook610" as if it were one of the most basic pieces of information one could know about an entire continent of 4 billion people? Remsense  诉  18:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well the thing about unofficial flags is, they're unofficial. They are just things someone made up and have no standing whatsoever. Canterbury Tail talk 21:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Asia


text:
Talk:Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Hello. I don't know much about the best way to do this; please bear with me. I have extensively read almost everything written in English on Anne Lindbergh--have read all her diaries and letters, and many other works on the Lindberghs and Antoine de St-Exupery.

I cannot imagine how AML and St.Exupery could have had an affair. They met only for about four or five days at the most: Charles Lindbergh was present or nearby almost all the time; and AML was astonished when CAL said that he saw her affinity for ST.Ex "with jealousy." AML and St. Ex had an immediate and profound intellectual attraction; they communicated (in French) vigorously; she may have had a "crush" on him and the sense that he would have been a better match for her in many ways than Lindbergh-- but I don't think they had sex! I know Wikipedia does not want to hear opinions or even thoughts on the topic of the article. But I urge that this article be more fully researched and that the question of whether these remarkable writers and aviators could have had an affair be clarified. The idea is going around the internet and is being taken as a given by many persons who do not have much of a bent for research or, for that matter, thought.

I have always had problems with Wikipedia and it with me because I don't have the time or patience to work out exactly how to put information in the articles and follow all the rules. Nut I do like Wikipedia and have good intentions. It would be best for all if it is as acccurate as possible.

Pls consider all the source material and the writings of Mrs. Lindbergh's daughter, Reeve Lindbergh. She has never said a word about an affair between her mother and St. Exupery-- and she does not keep things back.

Mrs. Lindbergh did have affairs with 2 other men later on in life. She had to go through psychotherapy and much clarification within herself of her relationship with CAL (whom she did love, even if he was a rather odd person and perhaps a Fifth Columnist or actual Nazi. I don't think he was, I believe he was simply not that aware and incapable of understanding things on a deep level in some respects. he did write well, but he did not see why he ought not so tay "Jews are driring us into war."  Anne did and almost left him over this statement, but they had six kids together-- and she was loyal. (Only five survived-- Jon, Land, Scott, Anne Spencer and Reeve).

Well I know you are not interested in all this but there it is. If I can find further information on this I'll add it to the St. Ex page.

BTW don't believe everything you read in "Going Up the Country," by Yvonne DAley, a book with a chapter about Quarry Hill, my home and Vermont's oldest alternative community (also my family's property management business). A lot of it is inaccurate.

Happy thanksgiving.

Isabella Fiske McFarlin (Ladybelle) Ladybelle Fiske (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Censorship: clarify paragraph
Under "Censorship and publication bans" it reads:

"Pilote de guerre (Flight To Arras), describing the German invasion of France, was slightly censored when it was released in its original French in his homeland, by removing a derogatory remark made of Hitler (which French publisher Gallimard failed to reinsert in subsequent editions after World War II). However, shortly after the book's release in France, Nazi appeasers and Vichy supporters objected to its praise of one of Saint-Exupéry's squadron colleagues, Captain Jean Israël, who was portrayed as being amongst the squadron's bravest defenders during the Battle of France."

Confusing. He wrote it in 1942 and first published it in the US, also in French. Why would an exile writer who had found refuge in the US be published in occupied and/or Pétain's France after the US had entered the war against Germany, Vichy's overlord? Actually, how did it work, did books that passed censorship in one part, freely circulate between German-occupied France, and the "free" territory ruled from Vichy? The paragraph should make sense by itself, w/o forcing the reader to do substantial background research. Wiki is not for insiders, and all of this sounds counter-intuitive.

Also, the paragraph has no source indicated. Maybe the one from the next, 2nd paragraph, covers this one too, but is it? And that's not how it works. Unsatisfactory job, needs reworking. Arminden (talk) 21:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Lettre Inédite au General C
Is this title ok ? I've read it on the web as "Lettre Inédite au General X". - Joaquin89uy (talk) 19:47, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


text:
Castro

Castro is a Romance language word that originally derived from Latin castrum, a pre-Roman military camp or fortification (cf: Greek: kastron; Proto-Celtic:*Kassrik; kaer, *kastro). The English-language equivalent is chester.

It may refer to:

People

 * Castro (surname), a surname (including a list of people with the name)
 * Fidel Castro (1926–2016), leader of Cuba, former First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba
 * José Castro (1808–1860), Mexican Californio politician, statesman, and general who served as interim Governor of Alta California and later Governor of Baja California
 * Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician) (1810–1875) a Venezuelan military officer and President of Venezuela between 1858 and 1859
 * Julian Castro (b. 1974), American politician from San Antonio
 * Raúl Castro (b. 1931), younger brother of Fidel Castro, former First Secretary of the Communist Party of Cuba
 * Xiomara Castro (b. 1959), president of Honduras and wife of former Honduran president Manuel Zelaya
 * de Castro, a Portuguese surname
 * House of Castro, a Spanish noble family
 * Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro, claimant to the headship of the royal House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies
 * A nickname of Martin Castrogiovanni (born 1981), Argentine-born Italian rugby player
 * Castro (Brazilian footballer), the mononym of Luiz Felipe Castro Neto, Brazilian footballer
 * Castro (Spanish footballer), the mononym of Santiago Castro Anido, Spanish footballer

Places and jurisdictions

 * Roman Catholic Diocese of Castro (disambiguation)
 * Castro Barros (disambiguation)
 * Castro Street (disambiguation)
 * Castro City (disambiguation)

Brazil

 * Castro, Paraná, a municipality in the state of Paraná in the Southern Region of Brazil.

Chile

 * Castro, Chile

Greece

 * Curiate Italian designation for the Latin Catholic titular bishopric of Moglæna, now Almopia, a municipality of the Pella regional unit in Greek Macedonia.

Italy

 * Castro, Apulia, a comune (municipality) in the province of Lecce
 * the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Castro di Puglia, now a Latin Catholic titular see
 * Castro, Lazio, a destroyed town in the province of Viterbo
 * the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Castro del Lazio, now a Latin Catholic titular see
 * Castro, Lombardy, a comune in the province of Bergamo
 * Castel di Castro, 13th century fortified city at the site of modern Cagliari, Sardinia
 * A former town within the comune of Oschiri, Sardinia
 * the former Roman Catholic Diocese of Castro di Sardegna, now a Latin Catholic titular see

Mexico

 * Castro, Baja California

Spain

 * Castro (Soria)
 * Castros (Spain)
 * Castro Caldelas, Galicia
 * Castro Urdiales, Cantabria

Switzerland

 * Castro, Ticino

United States

 * Castro County, Texas
 * Castro Cove, an embayment of the San Pablo Bay in Richmond, California
 * Castro Creek, a creek in Richmond, California
 * Castro Street Station, a Metro station in San Francisco, California
 * Castro Theatre, a movie theater in San Francisco, California
 * The Castro, San Francisco, a neighborhood in San Francisco, California
 * Castro Valley, California, a census-designated place in Alameda County

Other uses

 * Castro culture, Iron-Age, Bronze-Age and Celtic culture in the Northern Iberian Peninsula
 * Castros in Spain
 * Castro (village), types of settlements of the Castro culture
 * Castro (clothing), an Israel-based clothing company
 * "Castro" (song), a 2016 song by Yo Gotti
 * Wars of Castro, conflict between the Papacy and the Farnese dukes of Parma
 * Castro FC, Spanish football team
 * Jose Castro House, historic Monterey Colonial adobe house built in 1840

title: Castro


text:
Turkey (disambiguation)

Turkey or Türkiye is a transcontinental country straddling West Asia and Southeast Europe.

Turkey may also refer to:

Other common meanings

 * Turkey (bird), the genus Meleagris of large birds native to North America and Central America
 * Turkey meat, the meat of the bird

Arts and entertainment

 * "The Turkey", a short story by Flannery O'Connor
 * The Turkey (film), a 1951 French film
 * Turkeys (film) or Free Birds

People

 * Turkey Tayac (1895–1978), American Indian leader and herbal doctor
 * Turkey Tolson Tjupurrula (c. 1938–2001), Australian Indigenous artist
 * Turkey (nickname)

Places

 * Turkey, Limpopo, a town in South Africa
 * Turkey, North Carolina, a town
 * Turkey, Texas, a city
 * Turkey Brook, Hertfordshire, England
 * Turkey Mountain (Georgia)
 * Turkey Mountain (New York)
 * Turkey Ponds, two connected ponds in New Hampshire
 * Turkey River (Iowa)
 * Turkey River (New Hampshire)
 * Turkey Run (West Branch Susquehanna River tributary), a river in Pennsylvania
 * Turkey Creek (disambiguation)
 * Turkey Island (disambiguation)

Other uses

 * Turkey (bowling), a bowling term used to denote three consecutive strikes
 * Hotel Turkey, a hotel in Turkey, Texas
 * USS Turkey (AM-13), a minesweeper laid down in 1917
 * USS Turkey (AMS-56), a minesweeper laid down in 1943

title: Turkey (disambiguation)


text:
Electronic body music

Electronic body music (EBM) is a genre of electronic music that combines elements of industrial music and synth-punk with elements of dance music. It developed in the early 1980s in Western Europe, as an outgrowth of both the punk and the industrial music cultures. It combines sequenced repetitive basslines, programmed dance music rhythms, and mostly undistorted vocals and command-like shouts with confrontational or provocative themes.

The evolution of the genre reflected "a general shift towards more song-oriented structures in industrial as to a general turn towards the dancefloor by many musicians and genres in the era of post-punk." It was considered a part of the European new wave and post-punk movement and the first style that blended synthesized sounds with an ecstatic style of dancing (e.g. pogo).

EBM gained a stable following in the second half of the 1980s. Around that period, a youth-cultural scene emerged from EBM whose followers describe themselves as EBM-heads or (in North America) as rivetheads.

Etymology
The term electronic body music was first used by Ralf Hütter of the German electronic band Kraftwerk in an interview with British music newspaper Sounds in November 1977. In June 1978 Hütter reused the phrase in an interview with WKSU radio (Kent, Ohio) to explain the more physical character of the Kraftwerk album The Man-Machine. Although the term originated in the late 1970s, it was not until the 1980s when it reappeared and started to come into popular use.

"EBM stands for 'electronic body music', a term which only really came into use when the Brits and Belgians stepped into the 'sequencer business' with bands like Nitzer Ebb and Front 242. There you could find that sound again, where it was catchily picked up and labelled. In our days all these terms didn't exist, not 'industrial' nor 'post-punk'. [...] To us it was sequencer music, that was what we did."

In 1981, DAF from Germany employed the term "Körpermusik" (body music) to describe their danceable electronic punk sound. The term "electronic body music" was later used by Belgian band Front 242 in 1984 to describe the music of their EP of that year titled No Comment.

Characteristics
Described as an outgrowth of "electronically generated punk [music] intertwined with industrial sounds," EBM has been characterized as a composite of programmed drum beats, repetitive basslines, and clear or slightly distorted vocals, instructional shouts or growls complemented with reverberation and echo effects. Typical EBM rhythms rely on the 4/4 disco beat or rock-oriented backbeats, (featuring kick drum, snare and hi-hat) and some minor syncopation.

Environmental samples, e.g. hammer blow, machine and alert sounds, are often used to create a "factory ambiance". Other samples include political speeches and excerpts from science fiction movies, cf. Front 242 – Funkahdafi.

Precursors
EBM evolved from a combination of post-punk, industrial and post-industrial music sources, including The Normal, Suicide, DAF, Die Krupps, Killing Joke, Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and Test Dept. but also krautrock and Berlin school artists such as Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream (who had used electronic bass sequences as a basic feature in their productions). "The song 'Warm Leatherette' (The Normal, 1978) stands at the beginning of an important development, the electrified version of Punk that had been picked up and transformed in Düsseldorf by bands like Die Krupps, DAF and Liaisons Dangereuses, music that might be called proto-EBM at least. [...] The role of sequencers, synthesizer and drum machine sounds for the creative process itself and its results are another interesting point concerning EBM. The use of these instruments contributed obviously to the formation of danceable grooves and sound textures that attracted a wider audience."

Other influences include the synth-pop music of The Human League and Fad Gadget; and the krautrock-inspired dance hit "I Feel Love" by Giorgio Moroder and Donna Summer. Daniel Bressanutti (Front 242), who helped establish the term EBM, named the soundscapes of Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze as additional influences along Kraftwerk, Throbbing Gristle, the sequencer-based electro-disco of Giorgio Moroder, and the punk movement.

1981–1987
Emerging in the early 1980s in Germany and Belgium, bands such as DAF, Die Krupps, Liaisons Dangereuses, and Front 242 started to blend danceable rhythms and repetitive sequencer lines. At the time the genre arose, style-defining synthesizers included Korg MS-20, Roland SH-101, ARP Odyssey, Emulator II, along with several Oberheim and Yamaha models.

Archetypical songs are Verschwende deine Jugend, Alle gegen alle and Der Mussolini by DAF; Wahre Arbeit, wahrer Lohn, Goldfinger and Für einen Augenblick by Die Krupps; Etre assis ou danser, Los niños del parque and Avant-après mars by Liaisons Dangereuses, and Body to Body, U-Men and He Runs Too Fast for Us by Front 242.

Front 242 characterized their approach as somewhere between Throbbing Gristle and Kraftwerk. Nitzer Ebb and Portion Control, influenced by DAF and Cabaret Voltaire, followed soon after. Groups from this era often applied socialist realist aesthetics, with ironic intent. Other prominent artists were Pankow, Vomito Negro, Borghesia, The Neon Judgement, à;GRUMH..., A Split-Second, The Klinik, and Signal Aout 42.

1988–1993
In the second half of the 1980s, the genre became popular in Canada (Front Line Assembly ) and the U.S. (Ministry, Revolting Cocks, Schnitt Acht ) as well as in Sweden (Inside Treatment, Pouppée Fabrikk, Cat Rapes Dog) and Japan (2nd Communication, DRP, Soft Ballet). North American bands started to use EBM-typical bass sequences and combined them with the roughness of (hardcore) punk and thrash metal (cf. industrial metal). Nine Inch Nails continued the cross-pollination between EBM and rock music resulting in the album Pretty Hate Machine (1989).

Meanwhile, EBM became successful in the underground club scene, particularly in Europe. In this period the most important labels were the Belgian Play It Again Sam and Antler-Subway, the German Zoth Ommog, the North American Wax Trax! and the Swedish Energy Rekords. Notable acts at that time included And One, Armageddon Dildos, Bigod 20, Insekt, Scapa Flow, Orange Sector, Paranoid, and Electro Assassin.

Between the early and mid-1990s, many EBM artists ceased activities or changed their musical direction, incorporating more elements of rock, heavy metal and electronica. The album 06:21:03:11 Up Evil by Front 242 initiated the end of the EBM era of the 1980s. Nitzer Ebb, one of the most important purveyors of the genre, turned into an alternative rock band. Without the strength of its figureheads, electronic body music as a discernable music style faded by the mid-1990s.

Revival
In the late 1990s and after the millennium, Belgian, Swedish and German artists such as Ionic Vision, Tyske Ludder, and Spetsnaz had reactivated the style. Based on this revival, Sweden and East Germany then became the centre of the movement spawning a variety of newcomers such as Dupont, Proceed, and Sequenz-E. Primarily as a counteracting force against the expanding futurepop scene, these artists followed a neo-traditionalistic path, often referred to as "old school EBM".

Simultaneously, a number of European techno producers started incorporating elements of EBM into their sound. This tendency grew in parallel with the emerging electroclash scene and, as that scene started to decline, artists partly associated with it, such as The Hacker, DJ Hell, Green Velvet, Black Strobe, and David Carretta, moved towards this techno/EBM crossover style.

There has been increasing convergence between this scene and the old school EBM scene. Some artists have remixed each other. Most notably, Terence Fixmer joined with Nitzer Ebb's Douglas McCarthy to form Fixmer/McCarthy.

Aesthetics
EBM follows the transgressive approach of punk and industrial music (e.g. "demystification of symbols" ) and the use of provocative extreme imagery is common (e.g. Nazi paraphernalia; reminiscent of punk's use of the swastika ). Appropriating totalitarian, Socialist and Fascist references, symbols, and signifiers has been a recurring topic of debate between fans and outsiders to the genre alike due to its stylistical ambiguity that stems from industrial music's contrarian nature. In one instance, military-themed band Laibach "ma[de] no attempt to subvert this image [so] it has the aura of authenticity" so "[m]any Laibach fans began to revel in the evils of the band and to take their stage act at face value." "Bon and Doug were heavily influenced by DAF, Test Dept. and Einstürzende Neubauten. Hand in hand with the music was the image which unashamedly borrowed a lot from German and Soviet imagery. We all loved the sharp and striking design images of Russian and German '30s and '40s posters and artwork. Obviously we faced a lot of questions and objections about the ‚Neo-Nazi' image. But really we were just using the images to get people to sit up and listen. ‚Iconoclastic minimalism' was one phrase that was used to describe Nitzer Ebb at the time."

The military style of EBM has a "part-human part-machine" gestalt typical of transhumanist or cyberpunk movements. EBM asserts a hyper-masculine image of "triumphalism, combat postures, and paranoia," and is known for its "tough-guy" or machismo attitudes displayed by both men and women. According to Gabi Delgado-López of Deutsch Amerikanische Freundschaft, the duo who adopted an aesthetic of black leather and military paraphernalia in the early 1980s was inspired by the male homosexual sado-masochistic scene and is not meant to represent "machismo ideology" but part of a "role."

Electro-industrial
Electro-industrial is an outgrowth of the EBM and industrial music that developed in the mid-1980s. While EBM has minimal structures and a clean production, electro-industrial draws on deep, complex and layered sounds, incorporating elements of ambient industrial. Electro-industrial was pioneered by Skinny Puppy, Numb and Mentallo & The Fixer. In the early 1990s, the style spawned the dark electro genre and, in the end of the decade, a strongly techno- and hard-trance-inspired style called "hellektro" or "aggrotech."

Industrial dance
Industrial dance is a North American umbrella term for electronic body music and electro-industrial music. Fans associated with these genres call themselves rivetheads.

In general, industrial dance is characterized by its "electronic beats, symphonic keyboard lines, pile-driver rhythms, angst-ridden or sampled vocals, and cyberpunk imagery".

Since the mid-1980s, the term industrial dance has been used to describe the music of Cabaret Voltaire (early 1980s), early Die Krupps, Portion Control, The Neon Judgement, Clock DVA, Nitzer Ebb, KMFDM,   Skinny Puppy, Front Line Assembly,   Front 242,  Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, Manufacture, Yeht Mae, My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult, Leæther Strip or early Spahn Ranch. In March 1989, Spin Magazine presented a two-paged special report about the industrial dance movement in Canada and the U.S.

title: Electronic body music


text:
User talk:Urtica~enwiki

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. If you're interested in botany, you might want to look at the WikiProject Tree of Life. BTW, I've tweaked the Japanese knotweed article a bit -- please see Talk:Japanese knotweed. cheer -- Tarquin 09:50 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Urtica~enwiki


text:
Talk:Liber Memorialis

An enjoyable little book giving a fascinating insight into the syllabus for a young Roman aristocrat and the Romans' view of the world and themselves. Much more should be made of this work - students of Latin could use it just as Eutropius is given for translation out of Latin.

Some help and detail on post-1911 edition or editions would be welcome; apparently there was a German edition in 1935:
 * AßMANN, E., ed., Lucii Ampelii Liber memorialis. Lipsiae 1935 ; Stutgardiae 1972. (Bibliotheca Teubneriana.)

(the above listing is from www.forumromanum.org/literature/justin/bibliographie.html) --Gary D 09:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I have added the requested information on modern editions. Wareh 19:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Note: there is no point putting a stub message on this page. All that is known of Ampelius is the Liber Memorialis book, so there will likely never be any additional information to add here. All details on that book are included on its page.

title: Talk:Liber Memorialis


text:
Rio Reiser

Ralph Christian Möbius (9 January 1950 – 20 August 1996), known professionally as Rio Reiser, was a German musician and from 1970 to 1985 the lead singer and main lyric-writer for the rock group Ton Steine Scherben. After that band broke up, he worked as a solo artist. Among his best known songs are Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht, Keine Macht für Niemand, and the Rauch-Haus-Song with the Ton Steine Scherben. As a solo artist, his best known songs are König von Deutschland, Alles Lüge, and Junimond. Reiser supported squatting in the early 1970s and later the green political party Die Grünen. After the German reunification, he joined the Party of Democratic Socialism.

Younger Years
His father was an engineer for Siemens, and the family moved several times because of his father's work; they lived in West Berlin, Upper Bavaria, Nuremberg, Mannheim, and Fellbach. Reiser was never really able to feel at home in any of these places. Many of his friends said, when they were asked in an interview broadcast on the TV channel Arte in 1998, two years after his death, that he started playing music to create a place where he felt at home.

Reiser was known by his friends as someone who had a special mind of his own. For example, he managed to persuade his mother Erika Möbius that he was allowed to stop attending school and start an apprenticeship in a studio for photography, which he then quit in order to join a music conservatory and later to follow his two older brothers to West Berlin at the early age of 17 in order to put the world's first "Rock Opera" onto stage. His mother supported his musical and artistic ambitions since she had soon realized that he was an autodidact; he never learned things when he was taught by someone else. Thus he taught himself how to play cello, guitar, piano and other instruments, wrote lyrics and poetry and later also assumed jobs as actor in some movies and TV shows or at the theatre.

He was given his nickname Rio as teenager by an eccentric artist and friend of the family who invented the name "Rio de Galaxis" for him in an "intergalactic youth ordination". He kept the nickname and later decided to change his name from Ralph Möbius to Rio Reiser when he played a leading role in the movie Johnny West (1977 film) and needed a catchy artist name. He took the idea for the name Reiser from his older brother Gert who had occasionally used it as artist name before. The name makes reference to the main character of the 1785-86 autobiographical novel  by Karl Philipp Moritz.

During his teenage years, Rio Reiser first discovered—and immediately became a big fan of—The Beatles at age 13 who represented the sound—and way of life—of the future for him and also inspired him to learn to play guitar, to compose his own songs and to form his first band. Later he preferred the rough, direct sound of The Rolling Stones. In reference to John Lennon and Paul McCartney, who were usually credited as "Lennon/McCartney" with respect of the songs they wrote, Rio and his band colleague and best friend R.P.S. Lanrue (real name Ralph Peter Steitz) as composers of most of the Ton Steine Scherben-songs were often credited as "Möbius/Steitz". Besides contemporary rock bands which became the soundtrack of the social changes beginning in the Sixties, Rio Reiser was also influenced by other music styles including orchestral film soundtracks, German "folk songs" and traditional music and German singers such as Marlene Dietrich. The avant-garde director Rosa von Praunheim repeatedly gave Reiser artistic suggestions.

Reiser was unique among German rock stars of his time in being openly gay. He came out in 1970 and lived openly as gay in his private life. At the beginning of his career, Reiser sometimes felt like a misfit among the political groups and various movements which, in the early Seventies, did not strongly approve of homosexuality. He later gained confidence while working with artists who were engaged in the newly forming gay movement of Berlin, including the gay performance group "Brühwarm" which recorded two LPs with music composed by Ton Steine Scherben. Reiser did not come out publicly until the 1980s. In 1986 he began to discuss being gay in interviews and talk-shows.

As an adult, Rio soon discovered his musical talents, which opened a way for him to express himself, thus enabling him to overcome restraints he otherwise felt due to a certain, intrinsic insecurity or shyness towards other people. The ability to reach out to others—even to the unknown masses in a concert audience—through his musical performance was later often referred to as being the core of his special talent to touch his listeners, or even to "build a relationship" with each of them for the period of a concert.

Musical career
While he still went to school, Reiser became singer in his first rock band The Beat Kings. The band had been founded by R.P.S. Lanrue (real name Ralph Peter Steitz), a boy living in the neighbourhood, who had heard of Reiser's singing talents and had asked him to join the band after letting Reiser perform a few songs to give a sample (as R.P.S. Lanrue later claimed in an interview, the Rolling Stones song "Play with fire" tipped the balance). Lanrue, who was of the same age as Reiser, soon became Reiser's closest friend and musical counterpart; he went on to support Reiser as a musician and lived with him most of the time until his death.

After leaving school, Reiser left his then hometown, as well as The Beat Kings, to follow his two older brothers' call to Berlin in order to compose the music for their common project, the first Beat-Opera, which turned out to be, in the words of Rio, an "absolute flop". Nevertheless, Reiser stayed in Berlin, where he was later joined by Lanrue.

After occasionally having toured the countryside with the theatre group "Hoffmans Comic Theater" (consisting in Reiser, his brothers and a group of friends), Reiser went on to continue theatrical projects in Berlin where he joined an improvisation theatre group which played scenes from the everyday life of pupils and trainees, thus adopting and reflecting the social problems among young people in West Berlin in the Sixties, as well as its tense and sense of imminent social change. The theatre was very successful with young people and toured through Germany until 1969. The involvement in the context of the student and youth movement—not only as musician and actor, but often in the political debates which were to follow the theatre performance as well, played an important role for Rio Reiser's development of political awareness and for his lifelong commitment—both privately and as musician—to liberation movements of various kinds, including, in particular, the left-wing political movement characteristic for the Sixties and Seventies (while he liked to put an emphasis on supporting the workers' and "simple people's" interests rather than the students' intellectual approach), the Gay liberation movement and later, the German ecological movement. His musical work to a large extent reflects these political influences and convictions and thus can hardly be detached from his political positions.

Ton Steine Scherben
In 1970, Reiser recorded his first single with the band Ton Steine Scherben. The band name was chosen in a lengthy democratic decision procedure among the members, friends and supporters of the band. The original name idea was actually "VEB Ton Steine Scherben", but the "VEB" was soon dropped. The band name can be translated both as "clay stones shards" and as "sound stones shards", thus offering different approaches to interpretation (sometimes also understood as a political program) and, last not least, making reference to Reiser's favorites The Rolling Stones. In that same year the group performed their first public concert and recorded their first full-length record.

The band soon became very popular with the squatter scene, left-wing student and workers' movement and was invited to numerous political events to provide the soundtrack to demonstrations, parties and rallies across Germany which often inspired the audience to translate the message into action afterwards. Thus, many buildings were seized after the end of a concert, and the band often ended up sitting in some commune discussing the political agenda with their hosts. Reiser later revealed in his autobiography that he sometimes would have preferred to just get away with some nice person.

15 years of touring, four more LPs and various film projects and collaborations with other musicians followed, including the recording of two children's records. Reiser lived together with the band and a large group of friends and supporters most of that time, first sharing a commune in Berlin. In 1975—after the band was tiring of the numerous demands and expectations by all kinds of political groups—the group settled down on a farm in Fresenhagen, in North Germany which continued to be Reiser's refuge and place of inspiration even after moving back to Berlin a couple of years later. One of the band's most important and ambitious albums, the "Black Album", was recorded there.

Ton Steine Scherben were musically very successful and, being one of the first rock bands in Germany which actually wrote and performed German rock songs, opened the door for countless successful German rock and pop bands to follow. Due to their refusal to adapt to the demands of the mainstream music business, as well as to financial mismanagement, a certain "outlawish" image in the eyes of the large radio and TV stations and a fan community which often forgot that the band had to make a living out of the music and would have despised any commercial ambitions, they were not able to translate their musical success and widespread popularity into financial stability.

Solo career
In 1985, Reiser and the band finally split, partly due to a feeling that it was time to move on, but to a large extent because of a disastrous financial situation. Reiser had a large debt with the group, but his early solo career went so well that he was free from debt in a short time. His first solo record-album was called "Rio I" and included the popular song König von Deutschland ("King of Germany"). The album was produced by Annette Humpe, a renowned German music producer who had already produced Reiser's very first solo single, "Dr. Sommer", some time ago when he was in need of cash and had asked her for support. The song "König von Deutschland" became one of the few real hits of Reiser, has been covered and cited by many artists ever since and is still known among most people in Germany. Other hit singles of the first album included the love song "Für immer und dich" and the melancholic "Junimond". Reiser could not repeat the commercial success of the first album, nevertheless he released five further studio albums until his death, most of them highly praised by the critics.

Many of his fans from the Ton Steine Scherben-days thought that he was selling out to mainstream, capitalist music business, and blamed him for becoming—at least for a period of time—a commercially successful musician. However, when listening closely to the lyrics, it can be noted that Reiser never abandoned his personal approach to music, politics, life and love, although the message was delivered in a more subtle way now. Reiser sometimes admitted that the objections to his solo music, even hatred by some old-time fans was a serious problem for him. Wandering on the edge of commercial adaptability, while trying to conform with the expectations of old friends, fans and political movements which he supported meant a difficult struggle for Reiser which sometimes drove him to despair and depression. At the same time, he continued to be a very creative, productive musician and songwriter who collaborated with other musicians and friends and underwent strenuous concert tours which often brought him close to physical exhaustion. One of the highlights of his career were two concerts performed in East Berlin in 1988 where he faced a sold-out concert hall filled with young people on the verge of the revolution which one year later led to the collapse of the political system of the German Democratic Republic and the opening of the Berlin wall. Recordings of the concerts prove that the east German audience knew the lyrics of his solo songs, and in particular all of the "Ton Steine Scherben" songs which they performed by heart, even though the albums were hard to come by in East Germany.

Reiser wrote and performed most of his songs entirely by himself, although he was often accompanied by his longtime friend R.P.S. Lanrue who continued to support him as lead guitar player and also delivered many musical ideas, while a few of his song lyrics were also written by or together with his long-term partner Misha Schoeneberg. Reiser's sixth and last solo album, which was recorded in 1995, was called Himmel und Hölle (Heaven and Hell). The album was the last one which he was contractually obliged to deliver to his major music company, and both the musical approach as well as the lyrics imply that Reiser was about to return to a state of inner independence from the major business not only personally, but also in artistic terms, including a sound and concept which is often seen as more authentic than the previous studio albums. After the release of the last album, which was not strongly marketed by his company, even though praised by the critics, Reiser was preparing new songs which he would have produced independently again, the completion of which was interrupted by his sudden and unexpected death.

Some critics say that Rio Reiser created a new image of a German folk singer; he was even called a "Schlager" artist and a "Volksmusik" musician (sometimes translated as "folk music", but in a literary sense it means music of the people). To other critics, Reiser was simply a singer in a rock band. However, Reiser sometimes approved of being referred to a Volksmusik musician, because he thought that this would simply mean he sang music for the people.

Death
Reiser died on 20 August 1996 from a circulatory collapse after internal bleeding at his home in Fresenhagen, where he was buried on his own property under an apple tree.

His grave was moved to Berlin in March 2011, because Reiser's heirs sold the Fresenhagen property.

Discography
Rio Reiser produced six studio albums as a solo artist, which were released on Columbia (CBS).

Studio Albums

 * 1) 1986: Rio I. (Columbia Records, November 1986)
 * 2) 1987: Blinder Passagier (Columbia Records, September 1987)
 * 3) 1990: *** (Columbia Records, April 1990)
 * 4) 1991: Durch die Wand (Columbia Records, July 1991)
 * 5) 1993: Über Alles (Columbia Records, August 1993)
 * 6) 1995: Himmel und Hölle (Columbia Records, March 1995; re-released January 2002)

Compilations

 * 1994: König von Deutschland – Das Beste von Rio Reiser (April 1994; König von Deutschland ’94)
 * 1996: Balladen (July 1996)
 * 1997: Unter Geiern (January 1997; double CD, best of with b-sides and remixes)
 * 2000: Junimond – Die Balladen (June 2000)
 * 2000: Alles Lüge – Best
 * 2003: Zwischen Null und Zero (September 2003; double cd with b-sides and remixes)
 * 2016: Alles und noch viel mehr – Das Beste (August 2016)
 * 2016: Blackbox Rio Reiser (November 2016; cd box set with 16 CDs, including almost entirely songs that were not previously released)

Live Albums

 * 1999: Live in der Seelenbinder-Halle, Berlin/ DDR 1988 (November 1999)

Other Albums

 * 1974: Martha – Die letzte Wandertaube (Oktober 1974), music for the film of the same name
 * 1998: Am Piano 1 (October 1998)
 * 1999: Am Piano 2 (March 1999)
 * 2000: Am Piano 1-3 (December 2000; 3 LPs)
 * 2007: Rio Reiser singt Lieder von kleinen und großen Vorstadttigern (November 2007; previously unreleased songs from theatrical plays and audio plays)

Tribute Albums

 * 1996: Abschied von Rio (December 1996; live double cd with Herbert Grönemeyer, Ulla Meinecke, Ton Steine Scherben, Haindling, among others)
 * 2003: Familienalbum (October 2003; including Die Sterne, Fehlfarben, Fettes Brot, Nena, Marianne Rosenberg, Söhne Mannheims, Paula and the unreleased Rio-Reiser song Herzverloren)
 * 2005: Familienalbum II (October 2005; tribute cd)
 * 2020: Wir müssen hier raus. Eine Hommage an Ton Steine Scherben & Rio Reiser (November 2020; double cd/lp)

Singles

 * 1984: Dr. Sommer (March 1984)
 * 1986: Alles Lüge (May 1986)
 * 1986: Junimond (August 1986)
 * 1986: König von Deutschland (October 1986)
 * 1986: Für immer und dich (November 1986)
 * 1987: Blinder Passagier (August 1987)
 * 1988: Manager (January 1988)
 * 1988: Ich denk an dich (May 1988)
 * 1989: Über Nacht (1989 – Tatort-Titelsong Der Pott)
 * 1990: Geld (March 1990)
 * 1990: Zauberland (June 1990)
 * 1991: Jetzt schlägt’s 13 (June 1991)
 * 1991: Nur dich (November 1991)
 * 1993: Nimmst du mich mit (August 1993)
 * 1993: Inazitti (December 1993)
 * 1994: König von Deutschland #94 (March 1994)
 * 1995: Straße (April 1995)

Video Albums

 * 2003: Ton Steine Scherben – Land in Sicht (27. January 2003, Live cut from the May 30, 1983 performance at the Offenbacher Stadthalle)
 * 2005: Konzert, Videos, Interviews (March 14, 2005; live cut from the Seelenbinderhalle and all videos)
 * 2009: Lass uns 'n Wunder sein (double DVD with video footage from the Seelenbinderhalle in 1988, uncut interviews and 2½ hours of bonus material)

Choir works

 * 2012: Reinhard Fehling: CD 'Rios Reise' – 'König von Überall' – https://reinhard-fehling.de/index.php/rios-reise-live. 'Sternchen': Chorversion mit Noten https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9EU8GNsWis

Literature

 * Rio Reiser, Hannes Eyber: König von Deutschland. Kiepenheuer & Witsch, Köln 1997, new edition from Möbius Rekords, Berlin 2001, ISBN 3-00-007733-2.
 * Dirk Nishen (publisher): Ton Steine Scherben: Geschichten, Noten, Texte und Fotos aus 15 Jahren. new edition from David Volksmund Produktion, Fresenhagen 1997, ISBN 3-00-021702-9.
 * Hartmut El Kurdi: Schwarzrote Pop-Perlen. Wehrhahn Verlag, Hannover 2001, ISBN 3-932324-82-X.
 * Hartmut El Kurdi: Unter Geiern. In: Mein Leben als Teilzeit-Flaneur. Edition Tiamat, Berlin 2001, ISBN 3-89320-047-9.
 * Kai Sichtermann, Jens Johler, Christian Stahl: Keine Macht für Niemand. Schwarzkopf & Schwarzkopf, Berlin 2003, ISBN 3-89602-468-X.
 * Wolfgang Seidel: Scherben. Musik, Politik und Wirkung der Ton Steine Scherben. Ventil Verlag, Mainz 2005, ISBN 3-931555-94-1.
 * Hollow Skai: Das alles und noch viel mehr. Rio Reiser: die inoffizielle Biografie des Königs von Deutschland. Heyne, Munich 2006, ISBN 3-453-12038-8.
 * Thomas Steensen: Ton Steine Scherben. Rio Reiser und die Freie Republik Fresenhagen. In: Nordfriesland, published by Nordfrissk Instituut, Nr. 170 (Juni 2010), S. 15–19.
 * Wolfgang Haberl: Rio Reiser. Südwestbuch-Verlag, Stuttgart 2015, ISBN 978-3-944264-67-7.
 * Rio Reiser. In: Persönlichkeiten in Berlin 1825–2006. Erinnerungen an Lesben, Schwule, Bisexuelle, trans- und intergeschlechtliche Menschen. Senatsverwaltung für Arbeit, Integration und Frauen, Berlin 2015, S. 56–57. urn:nbn:de:kobv:109-1-7841313 (archive)
 * Gert Möbius: Halt dich an deiner Liebe fest. Rio Reiser, Biografie. Aufbau, Berlin 2016, ISBN 978-3-351-03627-0
 * Rio Reiser, Hannes Eyber: König von Deutschland. Erinnerungen an Ton Steine Scherben und mehr. Mit einem Vorwort von Rocko Schamoni. Kiepenheuer & Witsch, Cologne 2016, ISBN 978-3-462-04860-5.
 * Rio Reiser, Hannes Eyber: König von Deutschland. Erinnerungen an Ton Steine Scherben und mehr. Mit einem Vorwort von Rocko Schamoni. Kiepenheuer & Witsch, Cologne 2016, ISBN 978-3-462-04860-5.

title: Rio Reiser