text:
Talk:Color management

Untitled
Adopted orphan redirects for searching: Colour management

Hi I´m Jan-Peter Homann and made the first version of this page. Every interested user can contact me at mailto:homann@colormanagement.de — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.235.7.114 (talk • contribs) 2003-02-21T06:35:52 (UTC)

Criticism section
I propose to remove this section of unsourced whining. Any objections? Dicklyon 23:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

 * If you mean the paragraph "A clear implementation of color management ...", I agree. For the rest I think fact tags would be more appropriate. Mlewan 04:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

One year later, it's still unsourced (except for my efforts). Time to rethink? --Adoniscik(t, c) 16:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Long past time. I'll take it out. Dicklyon (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

merge color calibration into this article
The two cover essentially the same ground. Color management is the more general topic however, so the article should be here. --jacobolus (t) 17:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I would not do that. Although a subset of color management, the color calibration article is already pretty long.--Adoniscik (talk) 16:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am coming around to your way of thinking... If you remove the link spam from color management you would be left with a short enough article to incorporate color calibration... There is more than enough information to constitute a separate article, this article should make reference to color calibration as one aspect of color management, moving it here would just confuse. --Adoniscik(t, c) 21:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Oppose – the topics are distinct; color calibration is a key component of color management, but is also involved in lots of color systems whether they use color managed or not. The concept of color calibration predates the concept of color management, by a lot. Dicklyon (talk) 23:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Are there any books or articles that discuss the history/usage of color calibration before color management? What are some early products that use color calibration?

 * P.S. Doesn't anyone else find the EL spam irritating? I'm inclined to nuke the lot since spam attracts spam. People keep adding links instead of references, which is what an encyclopedia needs. --Adoniscik(t, c) 21:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Here is an old color calibration ref, but it doesn't discuss the relationship. Feel free to remove all the ext. links any time you think a list is too spammy. Dicklyon (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Lacking much support since the Sept '07 proposal, I removed it. Dicklyon (talk) 04:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

merge rendering intent into here
this article could use a discussion of rendering intents, and that article is currently a stub. until more information is added, I think rendering intent should be a sub-section of this article. --jacobolus (t) 18:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Color space, which already has a section for this, would be a better place. I'll add the appropriate merge template to it now...--Adoniscik (talk) 16:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I subsumed it under color space conversion. --Adoniscik (talk) 20:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't really think that color space is the best place. Color management is the broader topic.  --jacobolus (t) 01:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I moved it to color translation, not color space. --Adoniscik(t, c) 03:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * What in the world is color translation? I have never heard that term used.  Most of the results at the google search for that term have nothing to do with the definition given at that wiki article, and there are fewer of them than for "gamut mapping", "rendering intent", etc. What's wrong with just merging the whole caboodle into this article (color management), until such time as there is enough information there to support a complete article about some sub-topic?  --jacobolus (t) 14:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Color translation is what color management systems do. Seems strange that it should have a separate article. Dicklyon (talk) 04:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * "Rendering intent" and "gamut mapping" are terms associated with the ICC. I tried to use something broader than both and more neutral; see Rodney, pg.32 for reference. I'm not sure what's going on with the "color management" and "color calibration" articles right now so I'd tentatively keep it on hold. --Adoniscik(t, c) 15:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * There's no p.32 at that URL, so it's not clear what you're trying to say. ICC is the main CM system, and yes it uses the concepts of rendering intent and gamut mapping; so why not talk about them here? Dicklyon (talk) 04:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

That is the index, and confirms that there is an article by the name "color translation", on page 32. (I linked to it since jacobolus questioned the term.)

It's simply WP:summary style. We can't address every topic related to color management in this article. I note we already have articles for ICC profile, ColorSync, and even ColorSync Utility. This arrangement allows one to address both topics with a neutral term and, more importantly, segregate the see also and ELs. --Adoniscik(t, c) 04:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, if this article gets big, and if color translation gets any significant amount of content, that might be an OK way to go. Why not wait until then? Dicklyon (talk) 04:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It's already as big as the three I mentioned (never mind the insignificant list of standards in the first). The "Color translation" section is already at third-level, so there is nowhere to go for further subheadings like rendering intent (each type of which could well do with a subheading). With so many headings in this present article, it's hard to call it anything but summary style. So I am treating it as such. --Adoniscik(t, c) 05:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * What's wrong with fourth-level headings? The contents of color translation is pretty meager; just a handful of sentences. And even though you found the term in a book, it's not a concept that's commonly discussed except as part of color management, and is often not even dignified with a name.  And color management is nowhere close to what I'd consider a big article; it's not even half of the 32K guideline for betting pretty big. Dicklyon (talk) 05:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

By that logic, you should merge ICC profile back in too. Why this article and not that?

 * I don't see that interpretation of my logic, since an ICC profile is a well known entity, but OK with me if you want to merge it in. Dicklyon (talk) 06:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The fourth level headings barely look different from the thirds, sacrificing clarity. See how the rendering intents are now deprived of attention? I'm opposed purely on presentational grounds. The merger is undeniably less clear. --Adoniscik(t, c) 06:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * A bullet list would be a good alterantive for that. We don't need a separate article just because we haven't found the best format or organization for this one. Dicklyon (talk) 06:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I guess. This merge is not that important to me. What do other editors think? I'm temporarily reverting until somebody takes the initiative to follow through and repair the broken refs, and formatting. --Adoniscik(t, c) 13:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I went ahead and fixed the refs and re-did the merge of color translation. Any other inputs? Dicklyon (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge color translation to here
I've proposed to merge the new color translation article to here, including its coverage of gamut mapping and rendering intent. It presently confuses the translation problem with the mapping problem, but we can straighten that out. Dicklyon (talk) 04:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at a merge, and also added a small subsection on color calibration as distinct from characterization. Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

✅ --Adoniscik(t, c) 23:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"Color Profile" Section Doesn't Bother to Explain What a Color Profile Is
The section talks at length about color profiles, but never actually tells you what they are. You have to guess, based on all the clues in the writing, instead of the writer having the courtesy to just explain it directly.

When writing for Wikipedia (or any media for wide public consumption) one should always consider the audience and keep in mind the following: Would most readers understand all of the terms that I am using here?

Otherwise the writing becomes very 'clubby' (written for an imaginary 'in-crowd', who already know a lot about the subject, rather than the article informing as many readers as possible).

Self-centered writing is usually poor writing, while writing that tries to reach as many readers as possible usually ends up being much more readable and well-constructed (because it takes more thought to write that way). As well as the final product often being something of far greater value.

173.246.35.185 (talk) 18:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Be Bold, take a crack at it! –jacobolus (t) 12:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Saturation discussion
The last paragraph in this section is incomplete with sentence hanging. Please someone fix.MxBuck (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Video
FTA: Thus, almost every video player is unable to have color management, and browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Edge) are only able to do color management for images but not video.

The people commenting on this bugreport claim it's a problem specific to Firefox. I've also checked the video players on my computer and all support at least some colour correction, some even allow arbitrary pixel shaders.

I suspect this paragraph contains a half-truth somewhere. 92.67.227.181 (talk) 05:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

ICM vs WCS
The part about ICM and WCS doesn't adequately explain the difference, and is ambiguous about which of the two was originally written by Heidelberg.

It doesn't explain what happens if an application isn't colour space aware. I've read reports that an unaware application can have its gamut ‘stretched’ resulting e.g. in oversaturated colours. That seems like an important thing to mention.

I wonder why Windows doesn't just use an sRGB profile for unaware applications?

There should also be more technical references here, such as API documentation. 92.67.227.181 (talk) 05:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
This article uses some forum posts ( and ). The latter is okay, since an administrator of the official forum of DisplayCAL did reply to it, yet the former is problematic, since none of the administrators replied, and WP:RS prohibits Wikipedians from using forum posts as sources in most cases. --RekishiEJ (talk) 13:33, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Color management


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Honourable Artillery Company

The Honourable Artillery Company (HAC) is a reserve regiment in the British Army. Incorporated by royal charter in 1537 by King Henry VIII, it is the oldest regiment in the British Army and is considered the second-oldest military unit in the world. Today, it is also a charity whose purpose is to attend to the "better defence of the realm", primarily through supporting the HAC regiment. The word "artillery" in "Honourable Artillery Company" does not have the current meaning that is generally associated with it, but dates from a time when in the English language that word meant any projectile, for example arrows shot from a bow. The equivalent form of words in modern English would be either "Honourable Infantry Company" or "Honourable Military Company".

In the 17th century, its members played a significant part in the formation of both the Royal Marines and the Grenadier Guards. More recently, regiments, battalions and batteries of the Company fought with distinction in both World Wars and its current regiment, which forms part of the Army Reserve, is the oldest surviving regiment in the British Army, and the second most senior in the Army Reserve after the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers (Militia). Members of the regiment are drawn, for the most part, from young men and women working in and around the City and Greater London. Those leaving the active units may become Veteran Members and remain within the fraternity of the company.

Early history
The HAC can trace its history back as far as 1087, but it received a royal charter from Henry VIII on 25 August 1537, when Letters Patent were received by the Overseers of the Fraternity or Guild of St George authorising them to establish a perpetual corporation for the defence of the realm to be known as the Fraternity or Guild of Artillery of Longbows, Crossbows and Handgonnes. This body was known by a variety of names until 1658, when it was first referred to as the Artillery Company. It was initially referred to as the Honourable Artillery Company in 1685 and officially received the name from Queen Victoria in 1860. However, the Archers' Company of the Honourable Artillery Company was retained into the late 19th century, though as a private club. Founded in 1781 by Sir Ashton Lever, it met at Archers' Hall, Inner Circle, Regent's Park, London. The Archers' Company remained a part of the regiment operated from 1784 to the late 1790s, along with Matross, Grenadier (established on 11 August 1686) and Light Infantry companies/divisions, with a Rifle or Yager Company introduced around 1803.

The regiment has the rare distinction of having fought on the side of both Parliament and the Royalists during the English Civil War 1642 to 1649.

From its formation, the Company trained at a site it had occupied at the Old Artillery Ground in Spitalfields and at The Merchant Taylors' Company Hall. In 1622, the Company built its first Armoury House at the site of the Old Artillery Gardens.

In 1638, Sir Maurice Abbot granted the Company use of lands at its current site south of Bunhill Fields Burial Ground on City Road, which in 1649 consisted of twelve acres enclosed by a brick wall and pale. In 1657, it sold its old Armoury House in Spitalfield to Master Gunner Richard Woolaston for £300.

In 1656, the Grenadier Guards were formed from gentlemen of the Honourable Artillery Company who had taken the then heir to the throne, Prince Charles (later Charles II), to Europe for his safety during the English Civil War.

On 28 October 1664, in the New Artillery Gardens, the body of men that would become the Royal Marines was first formed with an initial strength of 1,200 infantrymen recruited from the London Trained Bands as part of the mobilisation for the Second Anglo-Dutch War. James (later King James VII & II), the Duke of York and Albany, Lord High Admiral and brother of King Charles II, was Captain-General of the Honourable Artillery Company, the unit that trained the Trained Bands.

The Company served in Broadgate during the Gordon Riots of 1780 and in gratitude for its role in restoring order to the city, the Corporation of London presented "two brass field-pieces", which led to the creation of an HAC Artillery Division. (These guns are on display in the entrance hall of Armoury House.)

In 1860, control of the company moved from the Home Office to the War Office and in 1889, a Royal Warrant gave the Secretary of State for War control of the company's military affairs. In 1883, Queen Victoria decreed that the HAC took precedence next after the Regular Forces and therefore before the Militia and Yeomanry in consideration of its antiquity.

South Africa 1900–1902
Members of the Company first served as a formed unit overseas in the South African War (1899–1902). Almost two hundred members served; the majority in the City of London Imperial Volunteers (CIV) as infantry, mounted infantry and in a Field Battery that was officered, and for the most part manned, by members of the company.

Territorial and Reserve Forces Act 1907
In 1907, the Company became part of the newly formed Territorial Force with the passing of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act. The HAC Infantry was due to become part of the newly formed London Regiment as the "26th (County of London) Battalion", but instead managed to retain its own identity as the Honourable Artillery Company Infantry Battalion. The HAC also had its property and privileges protected by the Honourable Artillery Company Act 1908.

First World War

The HAC expanded to three infantry battalions and seven artillery batteries during the First World War. Second Lieutenants Reginald Leonard Haine and Alfred Oliver Pollard, of the 1st Battalion HAC, were awarded Victoria Crosses for their actions at Gavrelle in 1917. In total 1,650 men from the HAC were killed during the war.

In September 1914, the 1st Battalion followed the British Expeditionary Force to France and fought in the 1st Battle of Ypres. After the fighting at the Battle of the Ancre in 1916 and the Battle of Arras in 1917, it became an officer training battalion and provided demonstration platoons. Elements of the battalion were used to help quell the Étaples Mutiny. The 2nd Battalion HAC was raised in August 1914; it was in France by October 1916 and in action on 25 February 1917 at Bucquoy. They fought at the Battle of Arras in May and the 3rd Battle of Ypres in October. In November 1917, the battalion moved to the Italian Front under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Richard O'Connor. In the Battle of Vittorio Veneto, in October 1918, they led a force of Italians, Americans and British that compelled the garrison of the strategic island of Papadopoli (in the main channel of the River Piave) to surrender. For this remarkable feat of arms, the HAC was awarded two Distinguished Service Orders, five Military Crosses, three Distinguished Conduct Medals and 29 Military Medals.

Both A Battery and B Battery went to Suez in April 1915. In July, B Battery fought in the recapture of Sheikh Othman (key to the water supply to Aden) from the Turks as part of the Aden campaign. In February 1917, both batteries took part in the Palestine Campaign, were in action at the First and Second Battle of Gaza and entered Jerusalem in December 1917. In the German counter-attack during the Second action of Es Salt on 1 May 1918, A Battery was forced to make a rapid withdrawal under heavy fire, which resulted in the loss of all its guns. Both A and B Batteries took part in the Battle of Megiddo in September.

The 2nd Line batteries – 2/A Battery and 2/B Battery – were formed in 1914 and served on the Western Front in 1917 and 1918 as part of an Army Field Artillery Brigade; the 3rd Line batteries – A (Reserve) Battery and B (Reserve) Battery – were formed in 1915 to provide trained replacements for the 1st and 2nd Line batteries.

A seventh battery, the 309th (HAC) Siege Battery RGA, went to France in April 1917 and saw action at the Battle of Messines and the Battle of Amiens.

In 1919, Lieutenant-Colonel Edward Lisle Strutt, arranged for a detachment of the 2nd Battalion to form a Guard of Honour at Imst Station to give a final Royal Salute on the departure of the Imperial State Train for Charles I, the last Austro-Hungarian Emperor-King, to safety in Switzerland, after having served as the family's protector at Eckartsau on the personal initiative of King George V.

Interwar
When the Territorial Force was reconstituted as the Territorial Army (TA) in 1920, the HAC infantry battalion was reformed, while A and B Batteries formed a composite RHA unit with the City of London Yeomanry (Rough Riders) (one battery) as 11th (HAC and City of London Yeomanry) Brigade, RHA. The TA began to expand rapidly at the time of the Munich Crisis in 1938, and the Yeomanry left to form a separate light anti-aircraft regiment leaving 11th Regiment RHA (HAC). Subsequently, the HAC formed the 12th (1939) and 13th Regiments RHA (HAC) (1940) and the 86th (HAC) Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment (1939).

Infantry Battalion
In 1939, the Infantry Battalion became 162 (HAC) Officer Cadet Training Unit, this was the Officer Training Unit of the Reconnaissance Corps. In 1942, 101 RAC OCTU amalgamated with 162 Reconnaissance Corps OCTU to form 100 RAC OCTU based at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst.

11th (HAC) Regiment, RHA
The 11th (HAC) Regiment RHA served in North Africa at the Battle of Knightsbridge with 25-pounder guns and, after re-equipping with the M7 Priest self-propelled gun, in the Second Battle of El Alamein where it was commanded by Bill Leggatt. The regiment's guns were the first guns ashore in the invasion of Sicily; then they took part in the Allied invasion of Italy and the Italian Campaign.

12th (HAC) Regiment, RHA
The 12th (HAC) Regiment RHA took part in the Operation Torch landings and were in action at Thala in February 1943, where they halted a German advance following the Battle of the Kasserine Pass. After re-equipping with Priests, they too moved on to Italy in March 1944 and fought at Monte Cassino.

13th (HAC) Regiment, RHA
The 13th (HAC) Regiment RHA equipped with Sexton self-propelled guns fought in Normandy, the Netherlands and across the Rhine into Germany as part of 11th Armoured Division.

86th (HAC) HAA Regiment, RA
The regiment formed part of 26th (London) Anti-Aircraft Brigade defending the London Inner Artillery Zone. Anti-Aircraft Command mobilised on 24 August 1939, and so 86th (HAC) HAA Rgt was already manning static gunsites at places like Primrose Hill and Finsbury Park when war was declared on 3 September. The regiment served in the defence of the capital throughout The Blitz. It became a mobile unit in 1942 and was one of the first units to land on D-Day, with Regimental Headquarters commanding a composite AA Assault Group on Juno Beach. During the Normandy Campaign and subsequent advance into Belgium the regiment's 3.7-inch HAA guns were sometimes used to engage ground targets. During the winter of 1944–45 its guns and radar defended Brussels and Antwerp against V-1 flying bombs (known as 'Divers').

Over seven hundred members of the Company lost their lives during the Second World War.

Post-war
In 1947, the company was reorganised into:
 * an Infantry Battalion
 * 1st Regiment HAC, RHA, of self-propelled artillery (from 11th (HAC) RHA Regiment)
 * 2nd Regiment HAC (HAA) of heavy anti-aircraft artillery (from 86th (HAC) HAA Regiment; disbanded 1955)
 * G Locating Battery (from 12th (HAC) RHA Regiment; disbanded 1961)

In 1973, the Regiment was again reorganised; it was given the role of providing 'stay behind' observation posts (OPs) for the British Army of the Rhine as one of the three Territorial Army units making up the Corps Patrol Unit (with 21 and 23 SAS). The three sabre squadrons, each with a number of four to six man patrols provided surveillance and target acquisition capabilities to the HQs of 1st Artillery Brigade (HQ Sqn HAC), 1 Armoured Division (I Sqn HAC), 4 Armoured Division (II Sqn HAC), and 1 BR Corps (III Sqn HAC) with one 'sabre' squadron each. The new structure was:
 * Three patrol squadrons (1, 2 and 3 or I, II and III) – a fourth patrol squadron was formed for a short period in the 1980s
 * Headquarter Squadron, including Training Wing and Medical Wing
 * The Gun Troop (a battery of six 25 pounder guns and not part of the OP role)
 * Band
 * Corps of Drums

In 1992, the signals troops that had been integrated into the patrol squadrons were brought together to form the Signal Squadron; they were subsequently re-integrated with the patrol squadrons in 2010.

In 1992, in the Salisbury Plain Training Area, the HAC was the last British Army unit to fire the 25-pounder in the field, as the Gun Troop retrained onto the 105mm Light Gun. The 25 pounder continued to be fired ceremonially until it was replaced by the Light Gun.

In 1996, the first formed unit of the Regiment to be mobilised for active service since the Second World War was called up for Operation Resolute with the NATO IFOR in Bosnia.

The Regiment participated in the celebration of the Queen's Golden Jubilee on 4 June 2002 by firing a 62 gun salute at the Tower of London, and by providing a Guard of Honour (including the Regimental Band and the Massed Corps of Drums of the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards and the HAC) at St Paul's Cathedral. In December of that year, the Captain-General visited and dined with the company to commemorate her Golden Jubilee as Captain-General.

In 2005, the guns were withdrawn from Gun Troop, which was renamed Liaison Troop.

In 2006, the HAC was the first major unit of the Territorial Army to convert to the Bowman communications system. When Bowman was temporarily withdrawn from the Territorial Army in 2008/09, it was one of the few units to retain the equipment.

In 2016, Queen Elizabeth II became the longest-serving Captain-General of the HAC, with 64 years of service.

In 2017 A Battery (1st City of London) Honourable Artillery Company, was re-formed to provide gunners in support of 7th Parachute Regiment Royal Horse Artillery.

Current role

The main role of the regiment is surveillance and target acquisition, in which it operates three patrol squadrons. In 2018, the regiment took on an additional role when a new battery was formed to serve as part of 16 Air Assault Brigade in support of 7 (Parachute) Regiment, Royal Horse Artillery.

The HAC has a ceremonial role in providing guards of honour at the Guildhall in the City of London during state visits and, since 1924 (when the Royal Artillery ceased to be stationed at the Tower), has provided the saluting battery at the Tower of London for state occasions.

Training
The HAC is one of only a small number of Army Reserve units with responsibility for the carrying out portions of Phase One (recruits) and Two training of its own soldiers 'in house'. The Phase One course comprises six HAC-only weekends, followed by a two-week training period with other reserve soldiers at Army Training Centre Pirbright. Unlike most Army Reserve units, who are only required to train at up to sub-unit (company or squadron) level, the HAC is required to train as a regiment.

Those who wish to serve in 1 Squadron are required to undertake the Surveillance and Reconnaissance Patrols Course (SRPC), an arduous course with only a 10% pass rate. Service as a Special Observer qualifies for additional pay and specialist courses and is open to all arms and services.

Organisation
The HAC is not part of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, being an older and separate regiment with its own uniform, insignia and colours. The regiment forms part of 77 Brigade (having previously been part of 1st Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance Brigade) with sub units supporting the Army Special Operations Brigade and 16 Air Assault Brigade Combat Team. The sub units of the HAC are:
 * Headquarters Squadron.
 * The Corps of Drums. The last remaining sub-unit from the infantry battalions and still wearing the grenade beret badge, Foot Guards belt, beret badge backing and tactical recognition flash. As with an infantry battalion corps of drums, the drummers are 'soldiers first' and regularly deploy soldiers on operations as well as fulfilling their ceremonial role. The Corps of Drums forms part of HQ Squadron and is a separate entity from the Band, who are primarily musicians. They provide personnel for A Battery whilst still maintaining their ceremonial drumming role.
 * The Medical Wing, commanded by the Surgeon Major, who is a Royal Army Medical Corps officer, provides medical support to the Regiment for peacetime training and on deployment. Combat medical technicians within the Medical Wing undergo additional specialist medical training with the Defence Medical Services.
 * CIS Troop, a troop to provide communications information systems capability to the HAC and other units.
 * Sicily Troop. The enablers of the Regiment, providing logistics and motorised capability to the HAC and other units.
 * A (1st City of London) Battery, Honourable Artillery Company, a battery of 105mm light guns. The battery is paired with 7th Parachute Regiment Royal Horse Artillery.
 * 1 Squadron, comprising two troops of surveillance and reconnaissance patrols. 1 Squadron provides long-range surveillance, reconnaissance and a joint-fires capability as formed surveillance and target acquisition patrols to support the Army Special Operations Brigade, following the Integrated Review, 2021.
 * 2 Squadron, composed of a squadron headquarters, and three troops (Knightsbridge, El Hamma and El Alamein) of light ISR Detachments.
 * III Squadron, composed of a squadron headquarters, and three troops (Aden, Gaza and Rhine) of light ISR Detachments.

Future Soldier programme: under this programme the HAC was moved to 77th Brigade. A Battery will provide two guns to each battery of 7 (Para) RHA and 1 Squadron will provide Special Patrols to the Army Special Operations Brigade.

Operations
The Regiment has had individuals or sub-units on active service at all times since 1996; with the personnel serving in a wide variety of roles in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan and various countries in Africa. Commitments included the deployment of individuals to human intelligence roles in the Balkans (including as part of Joint Commission Observer teams) and then formed patrols to Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq; independent sub-units to Operation Telic 4 and 5 in Iraq and L Troop to Operation Telic 9; as well as individual and group reinforcements to other infantry and artillery units. In Afghanistan deployed personnel were divided between operating and maintaining counter indirect fire systems and other high technology equipment and forming part of the Brigade Reconnaissance Force (BRF).

On Tuesday 4 December 2007, Trooper Jack Sadler, who was serving with the BRF, was killed when his vehicle was hit by a blast north of Sangin, in Helmand province. Two other soldiers were injured in the attack. In 2008, the Runner-up for the Cobra Trophy for Volunteer Reservist of the year was Trooper Adam Cocks of 2 Squadron, who was severely injured in Afghanistan when his vehicle struck a mine. While recuperating at Headley Court rehabilitation centre, he and a friend came up with the idea of a rugby match at Twickenham to help raise money for the charity Help for Heroes.

Regimental museum
The Honourable Artillery Company Museum is located at Armoury House.

Dress
In 1830, King William IV ordered that the uniform of the HAC should be based on that of the Grenadier Guards, except that where the Grenadiers wear gold, the HAC were to wear silver. This tradition is continued today by the wearing of the silver coloured grenade in the forage cap similar to the brass one of the Grenadiers, and the buttons and lace on HAC dress uniforms being silver coloured instead of gold.

Berets
The HAC wear a khaki beret with the HAC's beret badge ("short arms") in white metal on a black backing. Officers and warrant officers wear an embroidered cloth version of the same badge. The Corps of Drums and Regimental Band wear the HAC infantry grenade on a blue red blue backing, which is superficially identical to that of the Grenadier Guards. From July 2008, members of 4/73 (Sphinx) Special OP Battery, part of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery, the HACs paired regular regiment, adopted the khaki beret to mark their close working relationship.

Other headdress
On the forage cap, the HAC infantry grenade (white metal) is worn by junior ranks of all subunits of the regiment. Sergeants and Warrant Officers wear a different version of the grenade, which has the letters HAC in brass on the ball of the grenade. Officers wear an embroidered silver grenade on their forage caps in No 1 Dress (Infantry) and on the Service Dress forage cap but when in No 1 Dress (Gunner) they wear the HAC Artillery cap badge. The latter is similar to that of the Royal Artillery but with "HAC" and "Arma Pacis Fulcra" replacing "Ubique" and "Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt". In Full Dress (normally only worn by the Band and Corps of Drums), the Bearskin is worn without a plume.

Badges of rank

In No 2 dress, Soldiers wear the larger Foot Guards badges of rank and qualification. Lance Corporals wear two chevrons and Lance Sergeants three. In Full Dress and Number 1 dress, WO2's wear a large colour badge of the same pattern as the Grenadier Guards, but in silver rather than gold. Officers' crowns and stars are of the same pattern as those of the Grenadiers (Order of the Garter), woven for combat uniforms but in silver for Service and Barrack Dress.

Stable belts
Each Squadron wears a different stable belt:

 * A (City of London) Battery – Light blue with narrow yellow stripe through the middle. ( Identical to the Royal Horse Artillery)
 * Headquarter Squadron and Band – red and blue edged with narrow yellow stripes
 * I Squadron – red
 * II Squadron – green (Identical to that worn by The Rifles)
 * III Squadron – blue
 * Training Wing – black
 * Corps of Drums – blue red blue (Identical to that worn by the Foot Guards)

Other distinctions

In 1906, King Edward VII gave the HAC the distinction of a special ribbon for the Volunteer Officers' Decoration and Volunteer Long Service Medal. The ribbon, based on The King's personal colours (in turn taken from the Royal Standard), is red and blue edged with narrow yellow stripes. This ribbon has been carried forward to subsequent Territorial long service medals awarded to HAC members.

B Battery HAC supported the 10th Hussars during the Second World War and, in 1972, the Captain General approved the Battery wearing a 10th Hussar button as the top button on Numbers 1, 2 and 10 dress. This privilege is carried on by Number II Squadron following the 1973 re-organisation.

Each year the Captain General awards a prize to the member of the Regiment who is deemed to have made an outstanding contribution to the Regiment. Holders of this prize, known as the King's or Queen's Prize wear a badge incorporating the Captain General's cypher and the year of award on Numbers 1, 2, 10 and 13 Dress.

Coat of arms

The coat of arms of the company is a Shield of Arms, helm, mantling and crest with as supporters a Pikeman and a Musketeer and the motto 'Arma Pacis Fulcra', Unlike other regiments of the British Army, the HAC is incorporated and is therefore eligible to bear and use a Coat of arms. It is believed to date from circa 1615 and the coat of arms appears on a military manual published in 1629.

Battle honours
The regiment's battle honours are as follows:

 * South Africa 1900–02 (Second Boer War).
 * The Great War (3 Bns and 7 Btys): Ypres 1915 '17, Somme 1916 '18, Ancre Heights, Ancre 1916, Arras 1917 '18, Scarpe 1917 '18, Arleux, Bullecourt, Pilckem, Polygon Wood, Broodseinde, Poelcappelle, Passchendaele, Amiens, Albert 1918, Bapaume 1918, Drocourt-Quéant, Hindenburg Line, Épèhy, St. Quentin Canal, Cambrai 1918, Selle, Sambre, France and Flanders 1914–18, Piave, Vittorio Veneto, Italy 1917–18, Rafah, Egypt 1915–17, Gaza, El Mughar, Jerusalem, Jordan, Megiddo, Sharon, Damascus, Palestine 1917–18, Aden.
 * The Second World War: Bourguébus Ridge, Antwerp, Le Havre, Rhine, North-West Europe 1944–45, Knightsbridge, El Alamein, El Hamma, Sbiba, Thala, Tunis, North Africa 1941–43, Sicily 1943, Cassino II, Coriano, Senio, Italy 1944–45.

The battle honours listed were awarded for services of both infantry and artillery units of the HAC. Those in bold are borne on the Colours.

Colours
The HAC is unique within the British Army in having two types of Colours. The HAC has its ceremonial Guns (which are considered Colours in Artillery regiments), but also carries a stand of traditional Colours of the Infantry. These Colours follow the pattern of line infantry regiments: the King's Colour being a version of the Union Flag, the Regimental Colour being blue with the HAC Coat of Arms in the centre. The last four occasions that new Colours have been presented to the Regiment were in 1928 by Edward, Prince of Wales (later Edward VIII), and in 1955, 1980 and on 18 May 2007 by HM Queen Elizabeth II, the regiment's Captain General.

City of London Police Special Constabulary
In 1919, following a decision to increase the strength of the Metropolitan Police Reserve Force, the Home Secretary approached the HAC to form a Division of Special Constabulary. Some 150 members, mostly Great War veterans, rallied to the call and joined the Division, forming the HAC Detachment. At the outbreak of the Second World War, the Detachment was integrated into G Division of the Metropolitan Police and then later with Islington Division. Following reorganisation, the Detachment is now part of the City of London Police Special Constabulary, its administrative base is Armoury House. In 2010, the Ferrers Trophy was awarded to Special Constable Patrick Rarden of the detachment for using his banking skills and experience to help train colleagues and provide invaluable assistance to solve fraud cases.

"The Company"
As well as the Army Reserve Regiment and Specials (the "Active Units"), the HAC exists as a separate charitable organisation —often colloquially referred to as "The Company" or "The House". The Company owns Armoury House and the Regiment's current grounds and, in addition to supporting the Active Unit, provides the basis for a social calendar. There are two distinct classes of member of the company. The first, Regimental Members, are those who are currently serving or who have previously served in the HAC Regiment or City of London Special Constabulary. The second, Members, must have served at least two years in Regular or three years in Volunteer units of the Crown or in the Police. Some members are people who have reached senior rank (for example Major General The Duke of Westminster) and they provide some 17% of the overall membership of the company.

Since 1633, the company has been governed by a Court of Assistants, like many of the City Livery Companies. The first Court for which a record can be found was held in January 1657.

Pikemen and Musketeers
The Pikemen and Musketeers (formed 1925, given a Royal Warrant 1955) are made up of veteran members of the Active Units. They are the personal bodyguard of the Lord Mayor of the City of London and form his Guard on ceremonial occasions.

Light Cavalry

The Light Cavalry Troop (formed 1979, granted Royal Warrant 2004) is open to both Regimental and Non-Regimental members of the company. They escort the Lady Mayoress, and in particular provide her 'Travelling Escort' at the Lord Mayor's Show.

Site
From 1538 to 1658, the HAC occupied and trained at the Old Artillery Ground in Spitalfields on the site of the outer precinct of the dissolved Priory and Hospital of St Mary Spital. In 1658, following disputes over use of the Ground with the Gunners of the Tower, it moved to its current site south of the Bunhill Fields Burial Ground continuing to the south as far as Chiswell Street. This area is described in a map of the area of 1677 as the 'New Artillery Garden' and has variously been referred to as the Artillery Ground and the Artillery Garden. This current site now falls in the London Borough of Islington, and is just north of the City of London, the main entrance being in City Road. During the aftermath of the 7 July 2005 London bombings on the London transport system, the Artillery Garden was used as a temporary mortuary.

Armoury House

Armoury House stands at the north of these grounds, and is the home of the HAC. It was built to replace a smaller 17th-century armoury; the central portion being completed in 1735 to designs by Thomas Stibbs financed in part by a gift of £500 from King George I. Subscriptions were received from members of the company and from the Court of Lieutenancy for the City of London. The building cost £1,332.

In 1802, a distinctive flag tower was added to the roof. The East and West Wings were built in 1828, replacing much smaller buildings on either side of Armoury House. A cottage, originally for the Sergeant Major, was built against the West Wing in 1850. 1862 saw the completion of a Victorian drill hall attached to the rear. The Albert Room, as it was called, featured an iron trussed roof and was named in honour of the then recently deceased Prince Albert.

On 9 June 1990, the hall was bombed by the Provisional IRA whilst a 21st birthday party was in progress, injuring 17 civilians.

In recent years parts of the building have been available on a private hire basis for events.

Finsbury Barracks

Finsbury Barracks is the Regiment's Headquarters and is leased by London RFCA from the HAC itself. Completed for the Royal London Militia in 1857, it was designed by the architect Joseph Jennings and built in Kentish Ragstone. An extension, faced in striped stone and granite, linking Finsbury Barracks to Armoury House was designed by Arnold & Boston and added in 1994. Finsbury Barracks was refurbished in the same year and was re-opened by the Captain General in 1996.

The HAC Shooting Lodge / "Bisley Hut"
The lodge was built in 1928 on land leased from the National Rifle Association at Bisley and replaced the original hut on the site. The building was funded by donations, including some in memory of the fallen of the First World War. HAC vacated the lodge in 2012 following the expiry of their lease and now affiliates to the London & Middlesex Rifle Association.

Pencelli Estate
In 1999, the company acquired the Welsh Pencelli Estate near Brecon as an area that could be used by the Regiment for military and adventure training. The historic estate lies in the heart of the Brecon Beacons National Park and comprises approximately 14,000 acres (57 km2) of hill land.

Notable members of the HAC

 * Colonels Commandant
 * Colonel the Earl of Denbigh (1903–1933)
 * Colonel the Viscount Galway (1933–1935)
 * Colonel the Earl Fortescue (1935–1943)
 * Field Marshal Viscount Gort (1943–1946)
 * Field Marshal Alan Brooke, 1st Viscount Alanbrooke (1946–1954)
 * Major General Sir Julian Gascoigne (1954–1959)
 * General Sir Richard Goodbody (1959–1966)
 * General Sir Rodney Moore (1966–1976)
 * General Sir Victor FitzGeorge-Balfour (1976–1984)
 * General Sir Richard Trant (1984–1992)
 * General Sir Michael Wilkes (1992–1998)
 * General Sir Alexander Harley (1998–2003)
 * General Sir Timothy Granville-Chapman (2003–2010)
 * Lieutenant General Sir Barney White-Spunner (2010–2013)
 * General Sir Richard Barrons (2013–2019)
 * General Sir Patrick Sanders (2019–2024)
 * Lieutenant General Sir Roland Walker (2024–present)

 * Others
 * Major Tom Addington, an outstanding all-rounder: sportsman, Commando, paratrooper and horse gunner, he was awarded an MC in the Netherlands.
 * Jock Airlie (Seton), Association Football Player
 * Kevin Alderton, holder of the blind speed ski world record
 * Edward John Amoore, Olympic gold and bronze medalist for shooting at 1908 Olympics
 * Major General Dennis Beckett CB DSO OBE awarded a DSO at the Battle of Monte Cassino
 * Prince Rupert of the Rhine
 * George Monck, 1st Duke of Albemarle
 * Gregory Barker, MP
 * Nigel Bruce, actor. Served with the Regiment 1914–1915.
 * Bertram Bowyer, 2nd Baron Denham, KBE, PC (1927–2021), a British Conservative politician, hereditary peer, writer and former member of the House of Lords. He was one of the few people to serve in the governments of five different Prime Ministers.
 * Major Robert Cain VC TD (1909–1974)
 * Sir James Carreras, British film producer, who, together with William Hinds, founded the legendary British film company Hammer Film Productions.
 * Leo Cooper, publisher
 * John Laurie, actor
 * Edward Leigh MP
 * Charles Greenwood, HAC before joining regular artillery, earned MC at Monte Cassino
 * Sir Edward Heath, former Prime Minister
 * Colonel Robert Dow Hunter – Army officer who knocked out two Tiger tanks in Germany
 * LGen Andrew Leslie OMM, MSC, MSM, CD, former Chief of Land Staff, Canadian Forces
 * Major David Liddell MC
 * Guy Liddell CB MBE MC, Deputy-Director-General MI5, One of Britain's principal wartime spymasters.
 * Gilbert McMicking CMG Scottish Liberal Party politician.
 * Vincenzo Lunardi, honorary member
 * General Sir Richard O'Connor, KT, GCB, DSO, MC, ADC
 * Richard Owen, English biologist, comparative anatomist and palaeontologist.
 * Kenneth Powell, Olympic hurdler
 * Hugh Pritchard (Olympic biathlete 2002 games)
 * Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester
 * Sir Marmaduke Roydon (1583–1646) an English merchant-adventurer and colonial planter, known also as a Royalist army officer.
 * Patrick Shovelton, one of Whitehall's most formidable international negotiators
 * John Talbot, awarded the MC in Normandy in 1944.
 * John Venn an English politician who sat in the House of Commons from 1641 to 1650. He was one of the regicides of King Charles I.
 * Sir Albert Lambert Ward, 1st Baronet Conservative Party politician.
 * Basil Williams, historian
 * Evelyn Maitland "Lyn" Wellings (1909–1992) Egyptian-born English cricketer and journalist, who played for Oxford University and Surrey.

Affiliations

 * – Sandfontein Artillery Regiment
 * 🇺🇸 – Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company of Massachusetts

Schools affiliation
In 1995, six public schools (Eton, Harrow, Marlborough, Radley, Rugby and Wellington) became affiliated to the company. The rationale behind these affiliations is to facilitate communication with the schools and to inform students of the opportunities available to them within the HAC.

Cadet force
The HAC established a Cadet Battalion in 1942 during the Second World War which continued until 1958. During the War and until 1948 members of the Cadet Battalion fired salutes and provided guards of honour whilst members of the HAC were away on active service. In 2012, the HAC sponsored and helped establish a cadet unit at the City of London Academy Islington and, in 2018, another at Mossbourne Community Academy.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Honourable Artillery Company


text:
Talk:Pluto

Odd Object Out
In the opening paragraph in the article, it is cited that [Pluto] "was always the odd object out." This statement is vague and warrants clarification. Is this in reference to its size? If so, perhaps a reference to a source pointing Pluto out as unique would be warranted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.229.255.21 (talk) 20:15, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

 * +1, this is really weird phrasing. 68.175.116.82 (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It was common phrasing throughout the 20th century. It's not just size, but the fact that when classifying the planets, Pluto didn't fit in anywhere (now of course it does). There were the terrestrial planets, the gas giants, and then odd Pluto at the fringes of the SS. Part of the appeal of Pluto was that it was the oddball. — kwami (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
 * 'common phrasing throughout the 20th century' doesn't cut it. We are in the 21st century, and that wording is biased and unscientific. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.103.111.118 (talk) 20:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Perfectly irrelevant, considering that the words in question are describing the situation in most of the 20th century. Pluto only stopped being the odd object out once some actually large TNOs started being discovered, like Varuna or Quaoar. Double sharp (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do agree with this claim that this phrasing should at least be modified. The sentence even works without it; you could continue with "and its planetary status" without adding that statement about being the "odd object out." TIMBITS42 (talk) 20:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

When Pluto was closer to the sun than Neptune
I know that Pluto was closer to the sun than Neptune between 1979 and 1999, but this also happened between 1735 and 1749 and between 1483 and 1503. But what is interesting about this is that this phenomenon also happened in the year 1AD, according to my mental orbital calculations. Is that true? Ar Colorado (talk) 15:06, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

 * Could be, but I don't see why that would be any more interesting than 1999. 1 AD and 1999 are fairly arbitrary dates. — kwami (talk) 04:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If you subtract 8 orbital periods from the perihelion date of 1989, you get 5.5 AD. That's a consequence of Pluto's orbital period being very close to a quarter millennium, but I don't know if it was closer than Neptune for 20 years in that orbit as it was in this orbit -- and that's assuming the orbit has been stable that long, which isn't yet known. — kwami (talk) 04:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Certainly known now, given that the orbits of highly eccentric asteroids can be calculated very precisely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.103.111.118 (talk) 20:31, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

"Pluto." listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pluto.&redirect=no Pluto.] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Gonnym (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 * make it to 134340 Pluto now redirect it 2601:2C6:580:EEB0:BEA4:E316:34E3:5BA5 (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * i agree with you 261:2C6:580:EEB0:BEA4:E316:316:34E3:5NA5 Shallom B Adepoju (talk) 23:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Add "Trans-Neptunian object" link
to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Neptunian_object Sisu-agape (talk) 07:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's already in the lede. Click on "bodies beyond the orbit of Neptune". Double sharp (talk) 09:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Pluto's Northern Hemisphere should be Southern Hemisphere?
Pluto rotates by 122.53° from the Plutonian ecliptic plane, meaning Pluto is "upside down" and rotates backward relative to 6/8 of our major planets.

According to NASA's "Eyes in the Solar System" planet viewer, this would make the "Heart of Pluto" actually "upside down" compared to the 6 major planets and the orbital directions of all planets. Do you think we should change the caption of the main photo from Northern Hemisphere to Southern Hemisphere. IapetusCallistus (talk) 12:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Per Axial tilt, the standard is to say that the north pole is the one on Earth's north side of the invariable plane. Everyone's using it, so let's stick to it. (In IAU terminology, what's going on is just that the positive pole of Pluto is its south pole, whereas the positive pole of Earth is its north pole.) Double sharp (talk) 13:20, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that mean Pluto's rotation is retrograde? We seem to be somewhat inconsistent in our usage. — kwami (talk) 20:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I suppose so, since its tilt is >90°. Double sharp (talk) 03:59, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

is Pluto still considered a planet?
???? 71.212.121.60 (talk) 19:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Depends on your definition of "planet". Our planet article covers the issue. — kwami (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If Jupiter counts as a planet despite the Jupiter Trojans in it's orbit, than clearly Pluto is a planet 70.124.130.114 (talk) 08:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's an argument that the Jupiter trojans are all planets. — kwami (talk) 08:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

 * The IPU really confused things when they came up with their new definition of planet in 2006. I don't object to Pluto being excluded from the definition, but I do object to the term "dwarf planet" - on purely linguistic grounds. Firstly, they said that, after 80 years, Pluto was no longer to be regarded as a planet. It was instead a "dwarf planet", which, to any reasonable person, means a type of planet. So it's still a planet, of sorts. Except, it's not. Any term would have been better than "dwarf planet". -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But that was exactly the point: Pluto was to be a 'dwarf planet', and a 'dwarf planet' would be contrasted with a 'classical planet'. Thus Pluto would still be a planet through the back door. Except that Part B was voted down, so we're left with a silly term than was intended to pave the way for Part B.
 * 'Planetoid' would be better IMO if you think that dwarfs are not planets. 'Dwarf planet' is fine for planetary geologists who continue to regard them as planets.
 * Why is it than 'minor planet' doesn't create the cognitive dissonance that 'dwarf planet' does? No-one seems to be bothered about them not being planets (though they were until the early-mid 20th century). — kwami (talk) 08:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I never felt there was anything strange about skew fields not being fields in mathematics. Why then should "dwarf planet" be any different? ;) Double sharp (talk) 14:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, probably because "dwarf planet" is the result of a conflict between two fields of science with, in this case, opposing interests. However, instead of two parallel category systems being created (which, in my humble opinion, should've been done), "dwarf planet" was what we got. It doesn't really help that the term's original proponent is now one of the most vocal critics of the 2006 reclassification, with the intent that DPs would be planets as dwarf galaxies are galaxies... really, I wish the term hadn't become so loaded. Oh well. :Þ ArkHyena (talk) 08:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Mass and Size
"On July 13, 2015, images from NASA's New Horizons mission Long Range Reconnaissance Imager (LORRI), along with data from the other instruments, determined Pluto's diameter to be 2,370 km (1,470 mi), which was later revised to be 2,372 km (1,474 mi) on July 24, and later to 2374±8 km."

Unfortunately, 2370 km is (1472.6 mi), not (1470 mi). It really jumps out because the next diameter given is only 2 km more than 2370 km but the conversion jumps up by 4 miles. I didn't change anything because I didn't have time to go through all the source material to see if the mistake is on the Wikipedia page or in the source material. But if someone does have time, please have at it. 2600:1002:B039:3FA9:CD58:FAE6:35C1:3C6C (talk) 06:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I was originally going to comment that this was probably a matter of significant figures. But then I noticed that the source gives Charon to single-kilometer precision, so presumably Pluto also was and just had the bad luck to end in 0. So, corrected to 1473 mi according to the source. Double sharp (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion for hyperlink
Hello, new user here. In the first paragraph of this article, the term "Trans-Neptunian object" is used to describe Pluto. As someone who was unfamiliar with the term, I went and found information about what that is on another page here on Wikipedia. I think it would bring clarity to link that page explaining what a trans-Neptunian object is. K74HM86 (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

 * @K74HM86 Thanks for the suggestion. We currently have a link to that article for the phrase "bodies beyond the orbit of Neptune". I do think linking trans-neptunian object would be effective in removing confusion but am unsure how we should approach it given the previously mentioned link. —Panamitsu (talk) 21:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I just linked it. This sounds like a clearly useful link to me, especially to a reader unfamiliar with the concepts discussed in the article. Clarity beats style. Renerpho (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The rotation period is wrong
The time it takes for Pluto to complete one full rotation is 6.387 days and not 6.386 days. OrangeAedan (talk) 14:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The article does say 6.387 days. Double sharp (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It says 6.386. Look: Pluto] OrangeAedan (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You're looking at the synodic rotation period, which is different from the sidereal rotation period. ArkHyena (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2024
please add a link to the moon Triton when it's mentioned (Mass and size section) Lejack 007 (talk) 19:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ — Sirdog (talk) 01:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Redirect Pluto to 134340 Pluto
name it to 134340 Pluto right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 2601:2C6:580:EEB0:BEA4:E316:34E3:5BA5 (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

 * There is no point in such a move. As per WP:COMMONNAME, doing so would not be constructive and is advised against. ArkHyena (talk) 23:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * but we have to because its not a planet Shallom B Adepoju (talk) 23:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Halley's Comet isn't at the title 1P/Halley, either. Double sharp (talk) 04:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ok Shallom B Adepoju (talk) 18:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Cite closeness (%) of Pluto's average distance from the Sun to a 5-AU multiple
Proposed addition at the end of the second paragraph of the Pluto Article:

The pattern of distances from the Sun being close (within 4.6%) of 5 AU or its multiples has been noted in the articles on "Giant planet" and "Dwarf Planet (in "View history” for 7 June 2024). For Pluto, the average distance from the Sun (or the semi-major axis of its orbit) at 39.5294 AU is -1.2% from 5 AU x 8. VativonHans (talk) 21:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose This is WP:Original Research. The changes to the articles mentioned have already been reverted on similar grounds ("trivial, unsourced, possible OR"), as have been additions to various dwarf planet articles you made. If you have a reliable source (a published scientific paper) that there is a pattern in those distances, as you suggest, please share it with us and we can discuss it. Microsoft's AI chatbot is not a reliable source (in fact, what your chatbot allegedly said about  is plain nonsense). Renerpho (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pluto


text:
Talk:The thought without language

Please see What Wikipedia is not #9: Wikipedia is not a place for personal essay. This article should belong to meta. --Lorenzarius 12:49 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

 * however, this stuff might be useful, if rephrased/rewritten appropriately - perhaps at Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in a section on the philosophical issues, or some other place. Anyway, I'm preserving it below, in case someone wants to work on it further :)

I agree that the content is good and useful. The original authors appear to be French. I, a native English speaker, have edited their comments, trying to make the vocabulary and syntax idiomatic English, while retaining the content.

TITLE "What would be a thought without language? ". Another formulation of the same question: "does a thought without language exists and, if so, how would it be?"

INTRODUCTION

We don’t often ask ourselves this kind of question but answering it or at least trying to answer it might allow us to evolve in the search for ourselves. However, it is practically impossible for us to bring a categorical answer, nor even a scientific one, the nature of this question being existential and dubious. To reason this clearly, it is necessary to precisely define the concepts used (language and thought).

To think means "to form ideas in its mind; to conceive concepts, opinions, by the activity of the intelligence, the reflexion "[ Larousse, n°2 ]. For other authors, to think, it is to conceive, form concepts (Plato, Aristote, Descartes); it is to judge (Kant, Brunschvicg); it is to reason (Hegel, Hamelin) [La pensée, n°3].

Language is[Le langage, n°4 ]: on the one hand, a physical fact, a production of sounds by the vocal apparatus, a perception by the auditory apparatus. On the other hand, language is an "immaterial structure", communication of "meant" ideas to which a word returns, a sign, which replaces the events, the objects in evoking characteristic structures forming the words. Language thus exists on two levels: on a semantic level (according to the direction) and on a phonetic level (according to the sound). Generally, language is the support of all the human activities (professor, poet, singer…). The subject has already been broached in different eras: Plato, 427-348/347 front. JC), Hegel (1770-1831), Saussure(1857-1913), Benveniste (1902-1976). The subject will only be treated from a philosophical point of view. We shall not give any personal opinions to be as objective as possible in the treatment of the question.

ARGUMENT: Thought and Language are indissociable

Some philosophers believe in strong links between Thought and Language. Following them, the Thought does not exist without the Langage vehicle. The thought can be communicated to the others only thanks to the words, to the language.

According to Hegel, what cannot be expressed is a pure matter without form which can take form only through language, the verbal explanation. Man can be delivered of its own confusion only by "the beautiful chains of the language", as wrote Paul Valéry (1871-1945). "Where the words miss saying it, lacks also the thought… Deprived of the guard of the word, the thought withers and dies" (Clement Rosset).

The strong tandem Thought-Language is according to Hegel rather an advantage "And it is also absurd to regard this need in thought of words as a disadvantage of the thought" (Hegel: Philosophy of the spirit). Thus neither truth nor true consciousness without the language: an indissociable tandem.

For Merleau-Ponty (Maurice) (1908-1961), "the thought is nothing interior, it does not exist out of the world and out of the words". No possible ambiguity: the thought cannot exist without its vector of signs which is the language taken in a broader direction: words but also unspecified signs.

For Nietzsche (1844-1920), ".... it is this conscious thought only which is carried out in words, i.e. communication, by what the origin of consciousness appears" (Bouquins collections, Robert Laffont p.219).

Without external medium, how can the thoughts of the Old be transmitted to the future generations? Common opinion tends today to see a narrow continuity and complementarity between thought and language.

Against-argumentation: existence of a thought without language

In favor of the existence of Thought without Language, neurologists present the case of a man with post-traumatic aphasia. He had verbal performance of a child of four or five years, but was very above average for performance on nonverbal tests: it is a sign that thought and language are not totally linked. There is thus an internal representation of ideas independent of language. Indeed when the brain manufactures a sentence, the sentence in the course of manufacture does not mean anything, and to continue the construction, the brain needs a referent already known, in order to translate it with words.

An additional argument is brought by Bergson: the use of language supposes to cut out the infinitely moderate continuity of our interior life, while distinguishing the states by the artifice of some juxtaposed words. "From which this failure comes", underlines Bergson, "if not what reality perhaps seized only directly, in the silence of the unutterable intuition"?

The Thought is thus assimilated to our whole interior life. We try, hopelessly and unsuccessfully, to translate it into our discrete language. From such a point of view, language does not have any more a vital importance for the individual: it is simply a formidable social and useful instrument to get into the human mental universe, to extract from it information and to communicate it to others.

OUR POSITION

There are always rough discussions between partisans and adversaries about the idea of thought without language. Is the language essential to the development of the thought? Which precedes the other? Which exists without the other one? Here are some questions without exact and precise answers. It is tempting to state that Thought and Language are indissociable, but who has not had the experience of being unable to put what he feels into words? Vygotsky (1896-1934) affirms that language does not express the "opinion" but "carries it out.”

According to Vygotsky, the thought does not coincide immediately with the verbal expression "One could compare the thought with a heavy cloud which pours a rain of words. This is why the passage of the thought to the language is an extremely complex process of decomposition of the thought and reconstitution in words. It is precisely because the thought does not coincide only with the words but also with the significance of the words which express it. The way of the thought to the word passes through the significance. Our speech always comprises an ulterior motive, a latent direction. As the direct passage of the thought to words is impossible but always requires a complex spawning time, one complains about the imperfection of the word and one deplores impossibility of expressing the opinion. "[ Vygotsky, n°X ]

The thought being independent of the language, one could then consider a system other than the language "to carry out" the thought! Rousseau (1712-1778) proposes to us visual imagination as the only possible alternative. For Nietzsche (1844-1900), only a negligible part of the thought is expressed in words: "[… ]the thought that is conscious is only a small part of the total thought, [… ] - because it is this conscious thought only which is carried out in words, [… ]" [ Nietzsche, n°X ].

In view of the arguments we have laid out, we judge that language is not essential to the development of the thought and that, in fact, the latter precedes the former! The man thinks and carries out a minority of his thoughts thanks to the language or imagination… On the other hand, the training of reasoning cannot be conceived without language!

RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PROFESSION OF ENGINEER

Which is the relationship between the profession of engineer and the philosophical question "What would be a thought without language"? It is noted that in nature, animals make wonders without however having the faculty of speaking: the bees build hives whose cells are perfect hexagons, the beavers set up very sophisticated dams.

These achievements are worthy of the occupation of engineer, and yet these animals do not have a language, or practically not. They however manage to communicate, sometimes in a way visible to man, like the flight into eight of the bee to indicate the direction of a fields of flowers.

The animals work here according to their instincts which are struck of automatism. They miss a more advanced form of active communication, which made it possible for man to exceed the instinctive stage. Man thus could evolve to a more significant development, dependent on the thought, and to the language which is the vehicle. In particular, the role of the engineer is significant: it conceives projects and seeks to carry them out, to materialize its thought. Is that possible without communicating (without language)?

The candidate engineer also learns how to measure the importance of sciences and mathematics, which will be its language to express the natural phenomena and the concepts that it has in the head. Later, the realization of a project will depend on the faculty of the engineer to convince us of its utility, and on his ability to use language to transmit his thought.

Man developed his domination of the other species by the development of his intelligence, of his thought. The language is thus an infinitely invaluable asset for the engineer, who will have to use it many different manners to convince, to communicate, to carry out projects.

CONCLUSION "Does a thought without language exists?” it is practically impossible for us to bring a categorical answer to this question. On the other hand, it is possible for us to moderate certain tracks of answers, in synthesizing what other people before us wrote on this subject, targeting the great ideas that this question has inspired. We are thus exploring the question thanks to various texts traversing various times, describing various ways of considering the question. We could note at which point the opinions diverge.

In our everyday reality, language seems to be a principal tool to advance the world. To be able to transfer the concepts that a person has in his head via language is capital "to make the world evolve". Without effective communication, many beautiful projects would never have existed. Each person has to be conscious of his role while having understood it and having interpreted correctly. Language is an asset that Man has over other species. Thanks to this vehicle, Man can seek to improve his condition continuously.

In the light of all these philosophical currents, we hope that our work would add some more ideas for your own reflection. It may be that our consideration is enriched by the fact that no two people think in the same way about this, and that it is not for us to moderate or to specify the thought of others. That comprises very interesting professional work to make a judgement, to search through one’s own thought through one’s own personality and nuance. This is why we turn over you the question to you, reader, "Who would be a thought without language?"…

title: Talk:The thought without language


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Terminal ballistics

Terminal ballistics is a sub-field of ballistics concerned with the behavior and effects of a projectile when it hits and transfers its energy to a target.

Bullet design (as well as the velocity of impact) largely determines the effectiveness of penetration.

General
The concept of terminal ballistics can be applied to any projectile striking a target. Much of the topic specifically regards the effects of small arms fire striking live targets, and a projectile's ability to incapacitate or eliminate a target.

Common factors include bullet weight, composition, velocity, and shape.

Class of projectile
Projectiles are primarily designed for compatibility with the constraints of the device used to launch them, and secondarily according to some balance of logistical practicality, practicable accuracy, and terminal effect. Prior to the development of rifling, the majority of projectiles purpose built for shooting consisted of fitted round balls, or multi-projectile shot loads. In modern times, this approach to shooting persists, as well as other means which have been refined within unique settings over centuries. In addition to advances of barrel design, means of propulsion available have also diversified, including guns designed to use black powder, smokeless powder, compressed air, and electromagnetic force.

Ammunition, and the components thereof, can be categorized in an assortment of fashions. Among other ways, it may be approached according to the shape, the weight, the dimensions of a projectile or cartridge, the customary charge of powder, velocity, intended purpose, and recommended applications. Though some projectiles and ammunition are designed from the beginning for the sole purpose of target shooting, the minimal powder charges necessary to force a metal projectile down the length of a barrel may be potentially lethal, and should be treated as such.

Conventional forms of projectiles:

 * Round Ball - Spherical in shape prior to loading, used in smooth or rifled barrels
 * Shot - Multi-projectile load, typically spherical or semi-spherical, best used in smoothbores
 * Slug - A nose heavy design that uses air drag from a light hollowed base or wad to aid stability
 * Pellet - (Specific) A self sealing, non-spherical projectile, typically designed to obturate with a rear skirt
 * Bullet - (Specific) A semi-cylindrical projectile, often with a frontal nose, stabilized gyroscopically from rotation

Target shooting

For short-range target shooting, typically on ranges up to 50 meters, or 55 yards, with low-powered ammunition like a .22 long rifle, aerodynamics is relatively unimportant, and velocities are low compared to velocities attained by full-powered ammunition.

As long as a bullet's weight is balanced, it will not tumble; its shape is thus unimportant for purposes of its aerodynamics. For shooting at paper targets, bullets that will punch a perfect hole through the target —called wadcutters— are preferred. They have a very flat front, often with a relatively sharp edge along the perimeter, which punches out a hole equal to or almost equal to its diameter, thus enabling unambiguous scoring of the target. Since cutting the edge of a target ring will result in a higher score, accuracy to within fractions of an inch is desirable.

Magazine-fed pistols tend not to reliably feed wadcutters because of their angular shape. To address this, the semi-wadcutter is often used. The semi-wadcutter consists of a conical section that comes to a smaller flat point and a thin sharp shoulder at the base of the cone. The flat point punches a hole, and the shoulder opens it up cleanly. For steel targets, the concern is to provide enough force to knock over the target while minimizing the damage to the target. A soft lead bullet, or jacketed hollow-point bullet, or soft-point bullet will flatten out on impact (if the velocity at impact is sufficient to make it deform), spreading the impact over a larger area of the target, allowing more total force to be applied without damaging the steel target.

There are also specialized bullets designed for use in long-range precision target shooting with high-powered rifles. The designs vary somewhat from manufacturer to manufacturer. Research in the 1950s by the U.S. Air Force discovered that bullets are more stable in flight for longer distances and more resistant to crosswinds if the center of gravity is biased to the rear of the center of pressure. The MatchKing bullet is an open-tip match design with a tiny aperture in the jacket at the point of the bullet and a hollow air space under the point of the bullet, whereas previous conventional bullets had a lead core that went all the way up to the point.

The U.S. military now issues ammunition to snipers that use bullets of this type. M852 Match and M118LR ammunition are issued, for the 7.62×51mm chamber: both use Sierra MatchKing bullets; for 5.56×45mm those U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine snipers who use accurized M16-type rifles are issued the Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge developed jointly by Black Hills Ammunition and Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center.

For ultra-long-range precision target shooting with high-powered rifles and military sniping, radically designed very-low-drag (VLD) bullets are available that are generally produced out of rods of mono-metal alloys on CNC lathes. The driving force behind these projectiles is the wish to enhance the practical maximum effective range beyond normal standards. To achieve this, the bullets have to be very long and normal cartridge overall lengths often have to be exceeded. Common rifling twist rates also often have to be tightened to stabilize very long projectiles. Such commercially nonexistent cartridges are termed "wildcats". The use of a wildcat-based (ultra) long-range cartridge demands the use of a custom or customized rifle with an appropriately cut chamber and a fast-twist bore.

Maximum penetration
For use against armored targets, or large, tough game animals, penetration is the most important consideration. Focusing the largest amount of kinetic energy and projectile mass on the smallest possible area of the target provides the greatest penetration. Bullets for maximum penetration are designed to resist deformation on impact and usually are made of lead that is covered in a copper, brass, or mild steel jacket (some are even solid copper or bronze alloy). The jacket completely covers the front of the bullet, although often the rear is left with exposed lead (this is a manufacturing consideration: the jacket is formed first, and the lead is swaged in from the rear).

For penetrating substances significantly harder than jacketed lead, the lead core is supplemented with or replaced with a harder material, such as hardened steel. Military armor-piercing small arms ammunition is made from a copper-jacketed steel core; the steel resists deformation better than the usual soft lead core leading to greater penetration. The current NATO 5.56mm SS109 (M855) bullet uses a steel-tipped lead core to improve penetration, the steel tip providing resistance to deformation for armor piercing, and the heavier lead core (25% heavier than the previous bullet, the M193) providing increased sectional density for better penetration in soft targets. For larger, higher-velocity calibers, such as tank guns, hardness is of secondary importance to density, and are normally sub-caliber projectiles made from tungsten carbide, tungsten hard alloy, or depleted uranium fired in a light aluminum or magnesium alloy (or carbon fiber in some cases) sabot.

Many modern tank guns are smoothbore, not rifled because practical rifling twists can only stabilize projectiles, such as an Armour-Piercing Capped Ballistic Cap (APCBC), with a length-to-diameter ratio of up to about 5:1 and also because the rifling adds friction, reducing the velocity and thus total force it is possible to achieve. To get the maximum force on the smallest area, modern anti-tank rounds have aspect ratios of 10:1 or more. Since these cannot be stabilized by rifling, they are built instead like large darts, with fins providing the stabilizing force instead of rifling. These subcaliber rounds, called Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) are held in place in the bore by sabots. The sabot is a light material that transfers the pressure of the charge to the penetrator, then is discarded when the round leaves the barrel.

Controlled penetration
The final category of bullets is that intended to control penetration so as not to harm anything behind the target. Such bullets are used primarily for hunting and civilian antipersonnel use; they are not generally used by the military, since the use of expanding bullets in international conflicts is prohibited by the Hague Convention and because these bullets have less chance of penetrating modern body armor. These bullets are designed to increase their surface area on impact, thus creating greater drag and limiting the travel through the target. A desirable side effect is that the expanded bullet makes a larger hole, increasing tissue damage and speeding up incapacitation.

While a bullet that penetrates through-and-through tends to cause more profuse bleeding, allowing a game animal to be blood trailed more easily, in some applications, preventing exit from the rear of the target is more desirable. A perforating bullet can continue on (likely not coaxial to the original trajectory due to target deflection) and might cause unintended damage or injury.

Flat point
One of the simpler ways to find consistent disruption from a bullet is forming a wide and flat tip. This increases the effective surface area, as rounded bullets can allow tissues to "flow" around the edges. Flat points also increase drag during flight to various extent, which along with the type of material and muzzle velocity, tends to affect the degree of expansion at impact.

Flat-point bullets, with especially pronounced fronts of up to 90% of the overall bullet diameter, are sometimes preferred for use against large or dangerous game animals. For such purposes, they are typically made of unusually hard alloys, and may be longer and heavier than normal for their caliber to decrease the chance of deflection, and even include exotic materials such as tungsten to increase their sectional density. These bullets are designed to penetrate with sufficient depth through muscle, bone, and vital areas while causing a wound channel ranging from bullet diameter to the size of a coin, significantly larger than the bullet, and are most likely to perform similarly at any angle and at various ranges. One of the hunting applications of the flat point bullet is large game such as bear hunting, in which case people may be carrying a sidearm such as a 44 Magnum, 10 mm, or a larger caliber that is not intensively reliant on expansion.

Light weight non-expanding projectiles pushed at a relatively high rate of speed are also utilized, generally for close ranged applications well inside 100 yards. The light for caliber bullets will transfer energy to a given medium more rapidly, yet with consistent penetration characteristics relative to their sectional density and a constant tapering effect as the bullet graduates to a stop. Such implementations may be conducive to mitigating fragmentation where weight retention is prioritized.

Other flat pointed bullets offer expansion ranging up into 1 to 3 times the original diameter of the bullet. Such ammunition is typically made from lead or with a supporting metal jacket design, which may contain pure lead, or a lead alloy which is strengthened in proportion to the expected range of velocities at impact. Particularly soft forms of lead may expand well at longer ranges, but must be kept at a velocity that is within reason for a close ranged shot. More resilient lead alloys which retain malleability will exhibit exceptional weight retention when pushed to a respective velocity and promptly striking hard surfaces at close range, but may have limited expansion characteristics at longer range. Ideally, the reduction in expansion will be proportionate to the reduction in energy over distance. Therefore, with equal or greater weight retention, the bullet proves to exhibit a higher sectional density necessary for sufficient penetration throughout its intended range.

In the real world, where people make some occasional mistakes in judgement, flat pointed bullets can have some forgiving advantages. Bullets fail in a variety of ways. While flat pointed bullets are not immune to deflection or severe fragmentation off hard surfaces, they do tend to be resistant, and any tendency to bleed off a small amount of speed only helps to mitigate misjudgements pertaining to metallurgy, particularly if the design coincides with additional weight. Secondly, when bullets fail to expand as expected, such as an impact on game 50 or 100 yards beyond what the ammunition is designed for, a bullet with a wide enough flat point (Meplat) will never "pencil through" with minimal disruption in the absence of tumbling. A properly proportioned flat pointed bullet can most assuredly leave a hole of sufficient diameter through the vital area, which is all that is necessary to end an animal's struggle with a difference of time appropriately measured in seconds from that of a higher velocity impact.

Expanding
More effective on lighter targets are the expanding bullets, the hollow-point bullet, and the soft-point bullet. These are designed to use the hydraulic pressure of muscle tissue to expand the bullet. The hollow point peels back into several connected pieces (sometimes referred to as petals due to their appearance) causing the bullet to create a larger area of permanent damage. The hollow point fills with body tissue and fluids on impact, then expands as the bullet continues to have matter pushed into it. This process is informally called mushrooming, as the ideal result is a shape that resembles a mushroom—a cylindrical base, topped with a wide surface where the tip of the bullet has peeled back to expose more area while traveling through a body. For the purposes of aerodynamic efficiency, due to the hollow-point not creating drag, the tip of the hollow-point will often be tipped with a pointed polymer 'nose' which may also aid in expansion by functioning as a piston upon impact pushing the hollow point open. A copper-plated hollow-point loaded in a .44 Magnum, for example, with an original weight of 240 grains (15.55 g) and a diameter of 0.43 inch (11 mm) might mushroom on impact to form a rough circle with a diameter of 0.70 inches (18 mm) and a final weight of 239 grains (15.48 g). This is excellent performance; almost the entire weight is retained, and the frontal surface area increased by 63%. Penetration of the hollow-point would be less than half that of a similar nonexpanding bullet, and the resulting wound or permanent cavity would be much wider.

It might seem that if the whole purpose of a maximum disruption round is to expand to a larger diameter, it would make more sense to start out with the desired diameter rather than relying on the somewhat inconsistent results of expansion on impact. While there is merit to this (there is a strong following of the .45 ACP, as compared to the .40 S&W and 0.355 in diameter 9×19mm, for just this reason) there are also significant downsides. A larger-diameter bullet is going to have significantly more drag than a smaller-diameter bullet of the same mass, which means long-range performance will be significantly degraded. A larger diameter bullet also means more space is required to store the ammunition, which means either bulkier guns or smaller magazine capacities. The common trade-off when comparing .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9×19mm pistols is a 7- to 14-round capacity in the .45 ACP vs. a 10- to 16-round capacity in the .40 S&W vs. a 13- to 19-round capacity in the 9×19mm. Although several .45-caliber pistols are available with high-capacity magazines (Para Ordnance being one of the first in the late 1980s) many people find the wide grip required uncomfortable and difficult to use. Especially where the military requirement of a nonexpanding round is concerned, there is fierce debate over whether it is better to have fewer, larger bullets for enhanced terminal effects, or more, smaller bullets for an increased number of potential target hits.

Fragmenting
This class of projectile is designed to break apart on impact whilst being of a construction more akin to that of an expanding bullet. Fragmenting bullets are usually constructed like the hollow-point projectiles described above, but with deeper and larger cavities. They may also have thinner copper jackets in order to reduce their overall integrity. These bullets are typically fired at high velocities to maximize their fragmentation upon impact. In contrast to a hollow-point which attempts to stay in one large piece retaining as much weight as possible whilst presenting the most surface area to the target, a fragmenting bullet is intended to break up into many small pieces almost instantly.

This means that all the kinetic energy from the bullet is transferred to the target in a very short period of time. The most common application of this bullet is the shooting of vermin, such as prairie dogs. The effect of these bullets is quite dramatic, often resulting in the animal being blown apart upon impact. However, in larger games fragmenting ammunition provides inadequate penetration of vital organs to ensure a clean kill; instead, a "splash wound" may result. This also limits the practical use of these rounds to supersonic (rifle) rounds, which have a high enough kinetic energy to ensure a lethal hit. The two main advantages of this ammunition are that it is very humane, as a hit almost anywhere on most small vermin will ensure an instant kill, and that the relatively low mass bullet fragments pose a very low risk of ricochet or of penetrating unintended secondary targets. Fragmenting bullets should not be confused with frangible bullets (see below).

Also used are bullets similar to hollow-point bullets or soft-point bullets whose cores and/or jackets are deliberately weakened to cause deformation or fragmentation upon impact. The Warsaw Pact 5.45×39mm M74 assault rifle round exemplifies a trend that is becoming common in the era of high velocity, small caliber military rounds. The 5.45×39mm uses a steel-jacketed bullet with a two-part core, the rear being lead and the front being steel with an air pocket foremost. Upon impact, the unsupported tip deforms, bending the bullet nose into a slight "L" shape. This causes the bullet to tumble in the tissue, thus increasing its effective frontal surface area by traveling sideways more often than not.

This does not violate the Hague Convention, as it specifically mentions bullets that expand or flatten in the body. The NATO SS109 also tends to bend at the steel/lead junction, but with its weaker jacket, it fragments into many dozens of pieces. NATO 7.62 mm balls manufactured by some countries, such as Germany and Sweden, are also known to fragment due to jacket construction.

Frangible
The last category of expanding bullets is frangible bullets. These are designed to break upon impact, which results in a huge increase in surface area. The most common of these bullets are made of small diameter lead pellets, placed in a thin copper shell, and held in place by an epoxy or similar binding agent. On impact, the epoxy shatters, and the copper shell opens up, the individual lead balls then spread out in a wide pattern, and due to their low mass-to-surface area ratio, stop very quickly. Similar bullets are made out of sintered metals, which turn to powder upon impact. These bullets are usually restricted to pistol cartridges and rifle cartridges intended for use at very short ranges, as the nonhomogenous cores tend to cause inaccuracies that, while acceptable at short ranges, are not acceptable for the long ranges at which some rifles are used.

By far the most common use of frangible ammunition is for training by shooting steel targets at close ranges, while one may be at risk of being injured by fragments of standard solid lead bullets at close ranges when shooting steel, the powder that frangible bullets disintegrate into upon impact poses a very low risk to the shooter. This becomes irrelevant when shooting at longer ranges because it is unlikely that fragments created by the impact of any type of bullet on a steel target will travel more than 50-100yds, in these long-range cases it is of more value to use bullets that fly identically to those to be used in real situations than to mitigate the possible risks of bullet fragments and ricochets so frangible bullets are typically not used. One interesting use of the sintered metal rounds is in shotguns in hostage rescue situations; the sintered metal round is used at near-contact range to shoot the lock mechanism out of doors. The resulting metal powder will immediately disperse after knocking out the door lock and cause little or no damage to the occupants of the room. Frangible rounds are also used by armed security agents on aircraft. The concern is not depressurization (a bullet hole will not depressurize an airliner), but over-penetration and damage to vital electrical or hydraulic lines, or injury to an innocent bystander by a bullet that travels through a target's body completely instead of stopping in the body.

Large caliber
The purpose of firing a large caliber projectile is not always the same. For example, one might need to create disorganization within enemy troops, create casualties within enemy troops, eliminate the functioning of an enemy tank, or destroy an enemy bunker. Different purposes of course require different projectile designs.

Many large caliber projectiles are filled with a high explosive which, when detonated, shatters the shell casing, producing thousands of high-velocity fragments and an accompanying sharply rising blast overpressure. More rarely, others are used to release chemical or biological agents, either on impact or when over the target area; designing an appropriate fuse is a difficult task that lies outside the realm of terminal ballistics.

Other large-caliber projectiles use bomblets (sub-munitions), which are released by the carrier projectile at a required height or time above their target. For US artillery ammunition, these projectiles are called Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munition (DPICM), a 155 mm M864 DPICM projectile for example contains a total of 72 shaped-charge fragmentation bomblets. The use of multiple bomblets over a single HE projectile allows for a denser and less wasteful fragmentation field to be produced. If a bomblet strikes an armored vehicle, there is also a chance that the shaped charge will (if used) penetrate and disable the vehicle. A negative factor in their use is that any bomblets that fail to function go on to litter the battlefield in a highly sensitive and lethal state, causing casualties long after the cessation of conflict. International conventions tend to forbid or restrict the use of this type of projectile.

Some anti-armor projectiles use what is known as a shaped charge to defeat their target. Shaped charges have been used ever since it was discovered that a block of high explosives with letters engraved in it created perfect impressions of those letters when detonated against a piece of metal. A shaped charge is an explosive charge with a hollow lined cavity at one end and a detonator at the other. They operate by the detonating high explosive collapsing the (often copper) liner into itself. Some of the collapsing liners go on to form a constantly stretching jet of material traveling at hypersonic speed. When detonated at the correct standoff to the armor, the jet violently forces its way through the target's armor.

Contrary to popular belief, the jet of a copper-lined shaped charge is not molten, although it is heated to about 500 °C. This misconception is due to the metal's fluid-like behavior, which is caused by the massive pressures produced during the detonation of the explosive causing the metal to flow plastically. When used in the anti-tank role, a projectile that uses a shaped-charge warhead is known by the acronym HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank).

Shaped charges can be defended against by the use of explosive reactive armor (ERA), or complex composite armor arrays. ERA uses a high explosive sandwiched between two, relatively thin, (normally) metallic plates. The explosive is detonated when struck by the shaped charge's jet, the detonating explosive sandwich forces the two plates apart, lowering the jets’ penetration by interfering with, and disrupting it. A disadvantage of using ERA is that each plate can protect against a single strike, and the resulting explosion can be extremely dangerous to nearby personnel and lightly armoured structures.

Tank fired HEAT projectiles are slowly being replaced for the attack of heavy armour by so-called "kinetic energy" penetrators. It is the most primitive (in-shape) projectiles that are hardest to defend against. A KE penetrator requires an enormous thickness of steel, or a complex armour array to protect against. They also produce a much larger diameter hole in comparison to a shaped charge and hence produce a far more extensive behind armour effect. KE penetrators are most effective when constructed of a dense tough material that is formed into a long, narrow, arrow/dart like projectile.

Tungsten and depleted uranium alloys are often used as the penetrator material. The length of the penetrator is limited by the ability of the penetrator to withstand launch forces whilst in the bore and shear forces along its length at impact.

Lead
Malleable lead alloy or jacketed lead core projectiles conducive to expansion have been shown to be capable of exhibiting between 98 and 100% weight retention at velocities up to 2000 feet per second, however measures approaching an ideal weight retention in practice would generally be realized at lower velocities due to inconsistencies of impacted targets in the real world. According to various experience and methodology, the limit at which expanding lead projectiles of appropriate alloy can be launched with minimal contamination upon impact may be contended more or less within the vicinity of mach 2 speeds.

Several methods have been developed to improve performance under the stress of high velocities. Hard cast lead alloys have been utilized which are resistant to expansion and deformation of any kind. These hard cast varieties may be more brittle than softer alloys, but within their limitations are capable of exhibiting greater weight retention at velocities up to around 2500 feet per second. Whether or not they are of sufficient construction, cast lead bullets are typically not pushed at significantly higher velocities, as accuracy is subject to degrees of degradation, with relation to the type of alloy, form of the bullet, lubricants or coatings, and design of the barrel.

Bullets with an exposed lead tip which are designed to fire in excess of 2400 feet per second are typically made of a jacketed variety, encased in copper, brass, or iron/steel. There is less tolerance for gaps in understanding brought by research and development above the ordinary threshold of velocity for lead bullets. To mitigate significant material loss, the jacket of bullets may be bonded intricately to the lead core at a molecular level, typically by thermal adhesion or electrochemical processes. It is generally acknowledged that bonded bullets are capable of increased resilience under severe stress. Depending on experience and methodology exemplary bullets can be observed which are theoretically capable of optimal weight retention under the hydraulic forces of impact velocities roughly in the vicinity of 2300 to 2700 feet per second. Designs with more reactive expansion characteristics may exhibit optimal weight retention at much lower velocities. Above their optimal threshold, bonded bullets with resilient alloys and construction may perform diminishing yet remarkable returns for weight retention, where standard jacketed varieties circumstantially exhibit the risks brought by severe loss of integrity, which manifests to various effect.

Additionally, the shape of the jacket material may be designed to mechanically retain a lead core to prevent the bullet from severely separating. This can be accomplished either by completely compartmentalizing separate sections of the bullet, or by a retaining shelf on the interior meant to lock the lead core into place to ensure a sufficient degree of the softer core can be reinforced by a stronger metal as it deforms. Such construction does not alter the limitations of a given alloy, but can allow for designs with highly reactive expansion characteristics in a given circumstance to retain sufficient mass for some length of penetration, even when significant loss of material is to be expected.

title: Terminal ballistics