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Oxygène

Oxygène (, Oxygen) is the third studio album by French electronic musician and composer Jean-Michel Jarre. It was first released in France in December 1976 by Disques Motors, and distributed internationally in 1977 by Polydor Records. Jarre recorded the album in a makeshift studio that he set up in his apartment in Paris, using a variety of analog and digital synthesizers, and other electronic instruments and effects.

French sound engineer Michel Geiss helped Jarre in the purchase, recording and programming of some instruments used on the album. Jarre's musical style was influenced by the musique concrète, developed by Pierre Schaeffer. The album was supported by two singles, "Oxygène (Part II)" and "Oxygène (Part IV)". Following the international success of the latter, the album became Jarre's breakthrough, reaching number one on the French Albums Charts. It was inspired by the track "Popcorn" by German-American electronic composer Gershon Kingsley.

Oxygène has been described as the album that "led the synthesizer revolution of the Seventies" and "an infectious combination of bouncy, bubbling analog sequences and memorable hook lines". The album influenced later artists such as Moby or Brian Canham of Pseudo Echo. In 1978, it would be followed by Équinoxe and in 1979, Jarre held an open-air concert at the Place de la Concorde, causing the sales of both albums to increase, reaching worldwide figures of 15 million copies. As of 2016 it had sold an estimated 18 million copies and is one of the best-selling French, electronic and instrumental albums in history.

Background
In 1967 Jarre travelled to London to sell his electric guitar and amplifier to be able to buy his first synthesizer, an EMS VCS 3 (one of the first units of the instrument), which he used on many of his subsequent albums. He also played guitar in a band called The Dustbins and mixed instruments including the electric guitar and the flute with tape effects and other sounds. Jarre began working with early analogue synthesizers and tape loops in 1968, and in 1969 he joined the Groupe de Recherches Musicales (lit. 'musical research group'), founded and led by Pierre Schaeffer, who developed musique concrete, a type of music composition that is mainly based on the use of pre-recorded sounds, originating the concept of sampling. That same year he mixed the harmony, synthesizers and tape effects to record his debut single "La Cage/Erosmachine". In 1971, he left the institution and dedicated himself to designing Triangle's electronic sound effects; he also went to the Pathé-Marconi record company to release it. Jarre had also done production work for some rock artists, earning enough to set up a small makeshift recording studio in the kitchen of his apartment on Rue de la Trémoille, near the Champs-Élysées in Paris. Initially it included very basic equipment consisting of a few guitar pedals, a Farfisa organ, the EMS VCS 3, and an EMS Synthi AKS; these last two were linked to two Revox model B77 tape machines.

One of Schaeffer's former students and artistic director of Disques Motors, Hélène Dreyfus convinced her husband, Francis Dreyfus, to hire Jean-Michel as an employee of his record label. Initially Francis offered Jarre a job as a copyright administrator, however he opted to sign an exclusive songwriting and recording contract. In 1972, the American synth-pop band Hot Butter released a successful version of Gershon Kingsley's "Popcorn". Jarre in that same year released his respective cover version under the pseudonyms Pop Corn Orchestra and Jammie Jeferson. Although unsuccessful, the track would serve as an inspiration for his most successful single, "Oxygène (Part IV)".

Their first two albums as well as their previous single were recorded on the label, Disques Motors, however they were not published there. Jarre released on Sam Fox Productions his debut experimental album Deserted Palace intended to be used in films and on television. It was created using the VCS 3 and RMI Keyboard Computer. In 1973 he composed the soundtrack for the French drama film Les Granges Brûlées (English: The Burned Barns). In its beginnings in the label, he was mainly dedicated to writing music and lyrics for other artists inside and outside the label from 1972 to 1975. The royalties received by Jean-Michel during his collaborations with Françoise Hardy, Gérard Lenorman and Patrick Juvet allowed him to purchase the ARP 2600, used in several of his collaborations with the French singer Christophe and solo works.

In 1974, Jarre attended a conference on the analog synthesizer and the ARP 2600 at the TDF center in Issy-les-Moulineaux. It was carried out by radio and television engineers, and French musical instrument designer Michel Geiss. Later, Jarre contacted Geiss by phone to invite him to his private apartment, Geiss accepted and visited Jean-Michel's makeshift studio, where he had the ARP 2600, the Eminent 310 Unique, the VCS 3 and more. Shortly after meeting, Jarre and Geiss started working together during the recording of Jarre's next album. Geiss, who at that time worked as a maintenance technician at, advised Jarre on the purchase of instruments such as the RMI Harmonic Synthesizer at the Piano Center's music fair, and was in charge of the programming and recording of some of them. Later, Jarre managed to finance the purchase of a Scully 8-track studio recorder and a mixture of Ampex 256 and 3M tape. In that same year, he composed the opening jingle for the A4 autoroute (also known as autoroute de l'Est), some media such as The Telegraph pointed out the possible original incarnation of "Oxygène (Part IV)" in the jingle.

Composition and Recording
Jarre recorded Oxygène between August and November 1976, using the makeshift recording studio in his apartment. In the Ferber studio Jarre recovered his old Mellotron that had few functional keys to write the first piece of music for the album, "Oxygène (Part II)". During the recording of the album Jarre used a Revox tape to delay the sound coming out of a speaker in order to achieve a "huge sense of space". This liberal use of echo was used on the various sound effects generated by the EMS VCS 3 synthesiser. The persistent allusions to terrestrial elements and the biosphere always associated the album with the musical movement new-age.

A reverb effect was made through the VCS 3. Jarre also used an AKG stereo reverb and an EMT plate reverb which was meters long in live performances, and eight different stereo echoes. Some little beep sounds were played on the EMS Synthi AKS and the waves sound used in "Oxygène (Part II)", the album also used "evocations of chirping birds".

Jarre used various other synthesizers and electronic instruments to create the tracks of "symphonic electronic music" on Oxygène. The sounds of the Farfisa organ were heavily modified. Geiss programmed specific sounds in the ARP 2600, among them the main sound of "Oxygène (Part IV)" and the "breathing" waves sound in "Oxygène (Part VI)". The Eminent 310 organ as well as the VCS 3 went through a phase pedal for guitars Electro-Harmonix Small Stone Phaser in order to provide the string pads used on the album. The RMI Harmonic Synthesizer and RMI Keyboard Computer were used on "Oxygène (Part IV)", "Oxygène (Part V)" and "Oxygène (Part VI)"; the sequence of "Oxygène (Part V)" was created with a Keyboard Computer.

Some of the drum sounds on the album were produced using adhesive tape to play two presets on a Korg Mini-Pops 7 drum machine simultaneously – "Oxygène (Part IV)" mixed the "rock" and "slow rock" presets, while "Oxygène (Part VI)" mixed "rhumba" and "bossa nova". "Oxygène (Part II)" instead used only the "swing" preset. The album was mixed by sound engineer Jean-Pierre Janiaud and his assistant Patrick Foulon at the Gang studio, it also was mastered at Translab studio.

Artwork
The cover art features a skull inside a dismembered Earth and is an adaptation of a 30 x 40 cm (12" x 16") watercolor, also named Oxygène, by the French painter Michel Granger. A picture of the painting was first published in 1972 in the magazine Pilote, and in 1976 the artwork was displayed at the Marquet Gallery, in rue Bonaparte in Paris. Jean-Michel visited this gallery and bought it, then Granger received a phone call from the gallery director to inform him that Jarre wanted to see him in person. On 15 September 1976, Jarre met with Granger so that he could modify the background of the watercolor and adapt it to the square shape of an LP record.

The album title was taken from the artwork because he considered that he "perfectly adheres to the spirit of the songs". Jarre said: "30 years ago there weren't so many people thinking about the planet. But I've always been interested in that, not necessarily in a political way but in a poetic, surrealistic way." Jarre also told the English newspaper The Guardian that "in a way, I wanted to link everything to nature and environmental issues". Granger stated that "Oxygène was part of a series about the damage being done to our planet. It was a pretty violent image for a record cover." He added, "That picture is the best known of all my work. It's my Mona Lisa. But I don't feel like it belongs to me any more. It belongs to anyone who loves the music of Jean-Michel Jarre."

Release
Oxygène was turned down by several record companies such as Island Records founded by Chris Blackwell —who later considered that he made two mistakes in his life, among them rejecting Oxygène and Elton John's first album, Empty Sky—. Jean-Michel decided to meet once again with Francis, the head of the Disques Motors label to see if he could release the album, to which he immediately agreed saying: "Right, well we have a world success...".

Oxygène was released in December 1976 in France, and the first pressing of 50,000 copies were given away to a limited number of hi-fi shops vendors. They used a few copies of the album to showcase its stereo sound qualities to their customers, and also as an example of "state-of-the-art sound". These copies were also promoted through clubs and discos. In addition, Jean-Michel and Francis did a promotional poster campaign in Paris.

In early 1977, Jarre together with long-time collaborator Juvet decided to put together the same team from the album Mort ou vif and set about writing the album , which contained the hit single "". The album was released in June and topped the charts. After another album with Christophe entitled  in the same year, Jarre decided to stop writing music and lyrics for other artists and preferred to dedicate himself entirely to his solo musical career.

In 1977, the album was released internationally by Polydor Records, and by April, it had sold 70,000 copies in France. "Oxygène (Part IV)" was Jarre's breakthrough single worldwide, peaking at number four on the UK Singles Chart. This success led to the album reaching number one on the French Albums Charts, number two on the UK Albums and number seventy-eight on the US Billboard Top LPs & Tape. "Oxygène (Part II)" was edited to about 3 minutes to be released in France as a single.

"Oxygène (Part IV)" began to play on the most important radio stations in his native country and the United Kingdom. Europe 1 used it as the theme of two of its regular programs, Hit Parade directed by Jean-Loup Lafont and basketball show Basket sur Europe 1 in the credit titles. The radio station also dedicated an hour and a half program in Jean-Michel's studio, and played the entire album, bringing his music to millions of people. It was played on Dutch radio and television throughout the two days in 1977 that South Moluccan terrorists held. The BBC used the album in a documentary, BBC Radio 1 also played it and was used in television programs such as Antenne 2 or Récré A2.

When interviewed in Billboard magazine, Motors' director Stanislas Witold said, "In a sense we're putting most of our bets on Jean-Michel Jarre. He is quite exceptional and we're sure that by 1980 he will be recognised worldwide." In Dublin, Ireland, a phone-a-disk system was used, whereby a phone call played about two minutes of the album along with an advertising message. On October 2, 1977, he was invited by host Jacques Martin to an episode of his Sunday program L'orchestre d'Antenne 2, in which the orchestra performed his single "Oxygene (Part IV)". Jarre also received nearly 25 gold records worldwide. In the United States it sold over 100,000 copies in Los Angeles alone, and by the end of 1977, it sold 300,000 copies nationwide.

Later, Francis created a label called Disques Dreyfus. Équinoxe was released in that label in 1978. It continued with a "familiar style, exploring the emotive power of orchestrated electronic rhythms and melody." In 1979, Jarre performed an open-air concert at the Place de la Concorde, this event caused the sales of both albums to increase, each sold around 1.5 million copies in France and were certified platinum in 1981; both sold 11 million worldwide in November 1979. By 1981, the album had sold an estimated 15 million copies worldwide, and by 2016 an estimated 18 million, being one of the best-selling French, electronic and instrumental albums in history.

Critical reception
Reaction to the album upon its release in the UK in 1977 was largely negative: the British music press, more interested in the developing UK punk scene, was oriented towards guitar-based music and hostile to most electronic music. Angus MacKinnon of the NME described the album as "another interminable cosmic cruise. The German spacers ([Tangerine] Dream, Schulze et al) mapped this part of the electronic galaxy aeons ago ... The album's [...] infuriatingly derivative. Explore its prime influences instead."

Considering the album as a French version of Mike Oldfield's work, Music Week said: "Unfortunately, Jarre has produced a work that is ponderous in its self-conscious musicality – he definitely wears his art on his sleeve. Unlike Oldfield, he never stands back and laughs at his own creation. It is heavy throughout, and his influences continually jog the elbow – particularly the lugubrious touches of Mahler and the almost continuous Bach underpinning." The magazine concluded by saying that "so some interest will be generated but the album is not really suited to our insular and musically antiintellectual Anglo-Saxon island."

Karl Dallas of Melody Maker was kinder towards the album, saying that "the first time I heard this album I hated it ... It seemed so bland, so undemanding, so uneventful. I've got to admit it repays further listening, and that it is not quite the electronic Muzak I had written it off as initially." He also stated that it "is not classical music" and that: "Though the track [referring to "Oxygène Part IV"] the discos are playing is, as you might expect, actually its least effective section musically, it has the same relationship to popular music as Tangerine Dream, say, or Oldfield. Personally, it still does not impress me as much as either, except at a technical level. It seems to lack heart, the sense of passionate involvement in the act of music-making which makes Edgar Froese's work almost a musical equivalent of a Jackson Pollock painting. It is almost too accomplished, too formally precise."

The most positive review came from Robin Smith of Record Mirror, in which he stated that, "It's pretty tough to communicate warmth through such music and the end product is usually stilted but Jean Michael Jarre has laid down a variety of forms joined together by cohesive lines." He also described Jarre as a "French Mike Oldfield" by "possessing the same emotive powers." He concluded by saying side one "ends on ghost-like notes" while the side two "has a rushing opening like the breaking of a barrier." Record World magazine commented that it is "an unusually melodic theme" that "is carried over both sides with all instruments played by Jarre himself".

Retrospective reviews regard the album as a major work in the development of electronic music. Phil Alexander of Mojo listed it as one of Jarre's three key albums and wrote that it was "his conscious attempt to unite the worlds of avant-garde, electronic, classical and progressive music." He said that its "dynamic, warm sound is intoxicating" and regarding "Oxygène (Part IV)", he finished saying it is "an unlikely UK Top 5 hit from what remains an elegant cornerstone of electronic music."

Jim Brenholts from AllMusic stated that it "is one of the original e-music albums" and that it "has withstood the test of time and the evolution of digital electronica." He also considered that "Jarre's compositional style and his rhythmic instincts were his strong points in 1976" and that "the innocence and freshness provide most of its charm. Jarre's techniques and ability provide the rest." The album was considered one of the most influential albums of 1976 by uDiscover Music, and was included in the book 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die. "Oxygène (Part I)" was considered by Billboard writer Lars Brandle as one of the electronic chillout tunes from back in the day.

Legacy
Oxygène won the Grand Prix du Disque (English: Disc Grand Prize) award by L'Académie Charles Cros, and American magazine People chose Jarre as the "Personality of the Year". A sequel, Oxygène 7–13, was released two decades later in 1997. In 2007, a new version of the original album titled Oxygène: New Master Recording was released, and in 2016 another sequel titled Oxygène 3 was released on the 40th anniversary of Oxygène.

Welsh music writer Mark Jenkins commented that the album "achieved a dynamic compromise between imaginative sound textures and accessible melodies that for one reason or another had been denied to earlier synthesizer artists". The album has been used for music therapy, meditation and births. Some of the music was used on the soundtracks of the 1978 film Snake in the Eagle's Shadow and the 1981 film Gallipoli.

Oxygène has been described as "one of the biggest catalysts to widespread use of the synthesizer in the 1970s" and influenced electronic artists like Moby, who collaborated with Jarre on his 2015 album, Electronica 1: The Time Machine. Brian Canham of Australian band Pseudo Echo said in Music Feeds that it was a "major influence on my production, song-writing and synthesizer programming with Pseudo Echo, and another of my projects, Origene, hence the homage in the namesake".

Track listing
All tracks are composed by Jean-Michel Jarre.

Side one
 * 1) "Oxygène (Part I)" – 7:39
 * 2) "Oxygène (Part II)" – 7:49
 * 3) "Oxygène (Part III)" – 3:16

Side two
 * 1) "Oxygène (Part IV)" – 4:14
 * 2) "Oxygène (Part V)" – 10:23
 * 3) "Oxygène (Part VI)" – 6:20

Personnel
Personnel listed in the album's liner notes.
 * Jean-Michel Jarre – production
 * Jean-Pierre Janiaud – mixing engineer
 * Patrick Foulon – mixing assistant
 * Michel Granger – artwork
 * David Bailey – back photography
 * Dave Dadwater - digital remastering with Yakuda Audio (2014 remaster only)
 * Charlotte Rampling - inner sleeve photo (2014 remaster only)

Equipment
Adapted from the liner notes of the 2014 remastered version.
 * ARP 2600
 * Eminent 310 Unique Organ
 * EMS Synthi AKS
 * EMS VCS 3
 * Farfisa Professional Organ
 * Korg Mini-Pops 7
 * RMI Harmonic Synthesizer
 * RMI Keyboard Computer (described as "Rhythmin' Computer")
 * Mellotron

title: Oxygène


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Talk:Cryptomathic

Notable enough?
Is there any particular reason why this company is significant, other than one of our users happens to work there? If not, this page should be deleted. Wikipedia is not a company listing. --Robert Merkel

 * It's a real, reasonably large company where useful information can be added. I see no reason not to have it here. --Eloquence 00:36 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

 * Eloquence never seems to have a problem with including anything and everything here. Just what would you think shouldn't be here? -- Zoe

 * Well, the company was founded by Ivan Damgård which is one of the guys behind hashes as we know them today. See Merkle-Damgård construction etc. However see my warning in the next section. --David Göthberg 15:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Good question. I work for the company and ask you kindly to consider the section I just added on Awards and Recognition - I hope that answers the question posed above as well as complies to the guidelines on conflict of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BFAQ#EDIT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattlandrock (talk • contribs) 14:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Warning, company edited article
This article has been heavily edited and extended by what seems to be employees of this company. This goes against Wikipedia policy. But this company might be notable enough since it was founded by Ivan Damgård. So for now instead of requesting it deleted I will just edit away the parts that could be considered "sales speach". (Which is pretty much all of it.) --David Göthberg 15:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Vincent Rijmen
Vincent Rijmen is the co-author of the Rijndael encryption algorithm that became the Advanced Encryption Standard. The Vincent Rijmen page says he works for Cryptomathic, but perhaps that has to be verified. Raffen (talk) 07:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Added references
I went through the page and added references where necessary. As the Crypthomathic employees frequently publish in peer-reviewed journals, it was not difficult to gather the information needed. I tried to be to the point and not to overdo it. If you think there are still sections requiring substantiation, please inform me. I also made sure that there is not sales talk left. (I am not an employee of this company and want to make sure that the article satisfies Wikipedia requirements).

--ScienceGuard (talk) 20:32, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Cryptomathic


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Talk:Mall of America

Untitled
"the mall receives 40 million visitors annually while the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro only receives 18 million visitors each year" -- this makes no sense. The Mall of America is in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area, so the people visiting the mall are a subset of visitors to the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area. There's no way that a super-set can be smaller than one of its components. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.176.151.28 (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Meetup
October 29, 2006 Wikipedia Minnesota Meetup location

Size
"Second-largest" prompts the obvious question. Michael Hardy 00:39 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

 * West Edmonton Mall in Edmonton, Alberta.

 * Built by the same group of entrepreneurs, I believe. Michael Hardy 02:20 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

 * And it's just had the zoning approved for another expansion, so don't any of you think of trying to beat us, either. :) Bryan

 * Any reliable intelligence on what that expansion will be? I've heard rumors for years. It's never just "more stores". I've heard that apartments will be attached, so that you can live at the MegaMall. I've also heard that it will have a water park. I'll believe it when I see it with my own eyes. - Eisnel 11:39, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

BTW, to all you Twin Cities folk: Does everyone call it "The MegaMall"? If so, that might be a neat tidbit to include. =o) - Eisnel
 * Yes, we do call it the Megamall. it's a fairly common turn of phrase. The_Shaggy_One
 * We do call it the Megamall, that's for sure. But, contrary to the claims of this article, when I say I'm going to the mall, I usually mean Ridgedale. I've found that most people who don't live in the bloomington area (i.e.: those with convienent access to the '-dales', Eden Prarie Center, Nicollet Mall, etc.) avoid MOA for most shopping outings. Lekoman 02:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll second this. When I was living in Minneapolis, "The Mall" was ambiguous.  It usually mean the MOA, but often refered to Rosedale as well.  If one was specifically refering to MOA, "Megamall" seemed to be the most common slange. -- Kaszeta 13:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Although "megamall" is still being used by a very few. The new cool slang that is being used is just "MOA". Megamall is just too 90's, by now, everyone in Minnesota knows it's big. And after going to it countless times, the Megamall just doesn't seem to Mega anymore. Therefore, Going to the MOA is a more common term. So to answer your question, no everyone does not call it the megamall. January 2006
 * WCCO radio reporters used the term "Megamall" in early January when they reported the renaming of Camp Snoopy. Wahkeenah 05:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Reporters may use megamall, but amongst my peers, I agree that moa is used alot more. "Megamall" is too cheesy. Maybe its that generation Y'ers are using moa more, and baby boomers are using "megamall". January 25 2006
 * Moa is an extinct bird, which is ironic considering that the Wall Street Journal writer a couple of years referred to the MOA as a "dinosaur". So, do you pronounce it "M-O-A", or do you say "MOW-AH" like the bird? Or like a "New Yawkuh" trying to say "More", as in "Mega"? :) Wahkeenah 07:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I say it as "M-O-A", and most people around here seem to do the same. shaggy 19:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. "Mo-ah" is faster. They could rename their fish petting zoo "MoA's Ark". Wahkeenah 23:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * That's creative name!  Perhaps you should suggest it for their petting area. 29 January 2006

 * I think people would still call it M-O-A's Ark. 30 January 30 3006 Mall Lover

 * I cannot find any information on the exact foot print of the building and/or parking. How much actual land area does this facility take?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.27.13 (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

For the phase II concept, I highly doubt they will have a waterpark inside of it. Across the street, the brand new Waterpark of America (not associated with the mall) is being built. The Waterpark of America is also being built with a hotel. Therefore, taking away any chances that the Mall of America will build their own waterpark. February 08 2006 Mineeesota

 * Not true. Plans submitted in May 2006 show a water park.  See  for details. --Steve Peterson 02:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

West Edmington Mall references removed (Edmington... where's that?)
I removed all of the insulting language here, which was well, EVERYTHING written here. If someone is going to edit an article, then EDIT it. This is NOT the place to bandy about insults. If you see a problem, (Which in this case was the misspelling of the word "Edmonton") Then FIX IT WITHOUT ADDING COMMENTARY LIKE "AMERICAN SCHOOLS DON'T TEACH".

Do we really need so many editors with a Quatloo complex? WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A CLIQUE! the mall of america has 300 stores Osirisrising (talk) 18:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Edmington is in Alberto, Canadia. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Rollercoaster Accident?
Wasn't there a rollercoaste accident on a coaster in Mall of America? I might be confused with another mall but I know there was one in the 80s that derailed and killed some people. Does anyone know any insight into what I have described? - Thanks --x1987x 17:28, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Gee, nevermind. [] Mindbender coaster in the West Edmonton Mall. hehe.
 * I don't recall any rollercoaster accidents, but the "Mighty Axe" has had quite a few incidents in which is has gotten stuck upside down with riders on it (apparently it has a safety brake that kicked in). This happened at least three times between it's intro and 2001 when I left the area. -- Kaszeta 13:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Two people have died in the Mall of Americ's Camp Snoopy, both young boys. One was a suicide, and he jumped from the Log Ride, the other I'm unsure of the exact location, there are memorials to both boys in the camp.

Updated info
With the exception of Hooters, all the bars, restaurants, and nightclubs on the 4th floor have closed down. Jillians (who owned just about every club on the floor) had declared bankruptcy last year, so they were on thin ice financially as it was, and the new law in Hennepin County which included bars in the state's public smoking ban nailed Jillians' coffin shut. So now all that's on the 4th floor is Hooters and AMC. EmiOfBrie 07:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I was just up there a couple days ago and noticed all the night club windows had black plastic over them, but there are still large conference rooms in use.

Actual Size
According to this website, information regarding the King of Prussia Mall, Mall of America, and Woodfield Mall is incorrect. Perhaps we should check this information and update accordingly? Ajwebb 18:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Camp Snoopy
The MOA lost rights to use the Peanuts franchise recently. It's been temporarily renamed "The Park at MOA". This section should be re-written from scratch shaggy 07:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what's stopping you? Wahkeenah 08:44, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Source needed.
I removed this unsourced assertion:
 * A few years ago a Wall Street Journal writer described the style of the MOA as a "stegosaurus," although it remains a popular attraction.

Feel free to replace when sourced. — Encephalon 06:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Formerly contained the restaurants..."
Could Minnesota Picnic be added to this list? Chris 23:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please add a section on the rumored 'secrets of the mall of america' aka 'the darkside of the megamall', like the tunnels, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.59.55 (talk • contribs)
 * Feel free to do some research and add the info to the article. Wahkeenah 03:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Original research
Overall I think that this is a really good article, but I've placed an "original research" tag on it since it seems to make a lot of unsourced assertions. Can we please find some more references to show where the information is coming from, and to prove notability? I'm not saying that the mall isn't famous -- just that right now this article is way way outside of WP:V. --Elonka 18:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It needs footnotes (so do a lot of articles), but it's very far from original research, which is a very specific concept. As such, I've removed the tag as inappropriate. Rebecca 23:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Most visited mall innacurate?
I was reading about the Ala Moana Center in Hawaii on wikipedia, and it stated that the Ala Moana Center gets 56 million visitors annually...

Dinosaur Walk Museum
We were at MOA last night and the Dinosaur Walk museum was closed and shuttered. A few weeks ago it was still open. Anyone know what's up with that area? I'm still lamenting the closing of Golf Mountain... --Rehcsif 21:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Section Merge
Should we merge the Square Footage / square metrage and Anchors section since most mall articles have the square feet after the anchor. Ex. Metallic 95  User Page | Talk 04:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Wal-Mart(100,000 Square Feet)

Operation hours
Just curious, does the mall of america ever close? If it does close, than how does it stay warm because from what I understand, the light fixtures and heat from the people walking inside the mall are the only heaters for the building.

 * In Minnesota we've learned how to build efficient buildings that lose very little heat and capture maximum daylight during the day. The Mall hours change regularly of course but stores generally close around 9pm. The building stays unlocked usually until midnight. It use to open until 2am on most nights because of the fourth level bars. Still, there is so much building mass, electrical components, and ambient lighting during the eight hours of being closed that it is unlikely to ever freeze. With the raw cubic feet of the mall as well, the air would take many days before it would become freezing. Much of the building shell is buffered by service hallways and in turn is buffered by stores. So the interior air of the walkways and Camp Snoopy is well insulated. 75.72.162.175 07:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

From the way the Mall's about page is written (http://www.mallofamerica.com/about/community) the primary heat source for the mall is solar heat, with the electric appliances making up any difference when people aren't in there. My understanding is the HVAC system has to run in cool mode (which could mean simply sucking cold outside air in) even on the coldest day of winter when the mall is occupied with the general public. P38fln (talk) 00:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Someone took off my part in the article...WHY?
I wrote about the rides, thrill, family, kiddie, and I don't know why its gone now. What happened? --Gamekid 01:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A wiki encyclopedic article is pretty dry, factual, etc. It's not a place to hurrah or emotionally discuss how much the mall rocks. .:DavuMaya:. 15:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Additions
This article info should get sourced in http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/realestate/commercial/08mall.html?n=Top/News/Business/Companies/Simon%20Property%20Group,%20Inc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davumaya (talk • contribs) 17:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

retail space
Our article on Woodfield Mall says that it is the third largest in terms of retail space. So one of the articles is wrong. john k (talk) 07:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Spam
The recent attempts by IP addresses, to post a reference to some book and video, look like "coatrack" attempts to post spam, i.e. to try to sell a product. Note the POV wording and that the thrust of the paragraph is not actually about the MOA, but about the author's attempt to sell something. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

No Heating Citation
The cited source says:
 * During the winter months, when temperatures in Minneapolis rarely climb about freezing, it remains warm inside the mall, even without a heating system. "Can you imagine a building this large, in the state of Minnesota, is not heated, even in January and February!" spokesman Daniel Jasper exclaims. "We heat the mall through our skylights and through body heat of all of our customers and light bulbs. Believe it or not! We don't have a central furnace."

I'm reverting the recent edit removing this and removing the failed verification tag. A separate source can be found for the Air conditioning claim. shaggy (talk) 01:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes you reverted the air conditioning sentence which I removed, not the heating sentence. The reason is, I believe it is hear say and not an actual definitive fact. I think it's been propagated here for so long and no one has bothered to remove it. In doing a google search, all I find are other wiki-like websites that have copied the sentence verbatim. I don't believe this is an actual fact, there is no primary source for it. Most likely if the mall was hot during the winter, they'd just circulate outside air (duh). I don't understand why air conditioning would need to be used if outside air is chilly. I'm asking for Consensus to remove the sentence altogether. .:davumaya:. 03:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Here you go - official, from the mall of america itself - "No central heating system"

http://www.mallofamerica.com/about/community P38fln (talk) 00:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

 * If someone gets real desparate, they could maybe contact the Mall and find out. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Generally, you don't delete information just because you feel it isn't right. Give someone time to do the research and find a proper source, within a reasonable time. Finding the required information might take longer than 40 hours. shaggy (talk) 05:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * The information was added a long time ago, see this edit in 2005 . In three years and dozens of editors the air conditioning fact still has not been resolved, I doubt another few days will do anything more. It's become a myth. .:davumaya:. 14:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * The information comes from a presentation on The History Channel. I can neither remember the show nor the date, but it has been some time since I have seen it. 4 June 09  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.14.232.100 (talk) 09:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's a similar citation from WCCO which has a notable disclaimer - the individual stores DO have heating. It's the common areas of the mall that lack a heating system. That changes the picture considerably. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Notable attractions
I removed non-notable attractions at MOA that appeared to be thinly veiled linkspam. --75.161.191.93 (talk) 03:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * American Girl Boutique and Bistro (Opened November 2008)
 * Mall of America Concert Pavilion
 * Moose Mountain 18-hole miniature golf course.
 * The River Church at Mall of America
 * Wedding chapel (called Chapel of Love) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.191.93 (talk) 03:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

i love mall of america cause it is fun to me im gowining may the15 i hope thay seve use stuff like food and dinner cuse im not gitining up its gone take use two days to get there im gone be sleep you here me but im gone get on the rids watch me thoy it just watch me your see me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.195.72 (talk) 22:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The above serves as a testatment to our modern educational system. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Crime Statistics
Request: I'd like to see a section covering the history of crime in the Mall during the earlier years of the its history. 75.72.53.191 (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Well then write it, you lazy ass. 86.45.83.23 (talk) 04:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I work at the Mall of america and we are pretty convinced that there is the ghost of a young girl that visits our store every day or two. Does anyone know if there was ever a suspected kidnapping of a girl from the mall that may have been murdered?

i wouldnt say that i was gonna go but not any more im scared —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.202.142 (talk) 04:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Actually, it's haunted by a host of ghosts of stores that went bust. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

american girl
american girl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.19.84.208 (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what your saying, but it's there.--99 time 14:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockers99 (talk • contribs)

Replace the Infobox building with Infobox shopping mall
I noticed this article is using Template:Infobox building, and thought I'd suggest that it might be helpful to replace that with Template:Infobox shopping mall (currently used in ~2400 articles, eg. West Edmonton Mall). If there are parameters that are missing, then it might be helpful to improve the infobox, so that all shopping centers can benefit. Cheers. :) –Quiddity (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable to me.  Ruby  2010/  2013  19:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Trivia
New logo of Russian Armed Forces is the old logo of Mall of America. (in russian): http://rufabula.com/news/2014/06/22/army-logo

--Luch4 (talk) 06:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Main Anchor Stores
This page is about a mall, and while many of the mall's attractions are mentioned, there is no mention of what the five main anchor stores are. This should be included in an article about a mall. Perhaps somebody who is familiar with this mall could add this information. I would do it, but mall directories (the only source of information I have since I am not familiar with the mall and do not live in the area) are not always accurate, and they do not list former anchors which may have closed, changed hands, or new anchors which may have been added since the mall opened.Cascade1988 (talk) 16:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)Cascade1988

What's past is past
It is absurd to have an article in Wikipedia in 2015 that says something is planned for 2007, and there "will be" this that and the other thing. There are a lot of statements of this sort in this article. I suspect it would be best to rewrite the whole thing much more succinctly and to leave out, as far as possible, any assertions that are unlikely still to be true a year or two down the road. --Rosharuo (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Feel free to update it. I often find myself updating articles that refer to future events years in the past. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Google Street View
I just checked and the interiors mentioned as being featured on Google Street View no longer appear to be available (I just checked and other than old images taken in the parking lot and a handful of panoramic photographs there is no "street view"-style feature). This should be removed or updated. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Is the mall actually the largest?
Some say the King of Prussia Mall is larger and so we need to decide. <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 22:45, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I have noticed an edit war seems to be going on regarding this fact so we should find a source to verify the size of the mall compared to King of Prussia. <<< SOME GADGET GEEK >>> (talk) 14:04, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Whatever mall is the largest, edits should use "As of" and a date. (And citations, of course.) Mall sizes change from time to time, and editors won't always update the articles as expansion projects are completed. SlowJog (talk) 02:03, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Why is it so big?
Why does a fairly small city have the largest mall in the US? How is there the demand for such a large mall? Do millions of people from elsewhere shop there? Jim Michael (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
 * For one, it is in a Metro area. Bloomington borders Minneapolis. For another, when it was first proposed, developers planned on it being a tourist attraction. SlowJog (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

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Undid revision 900219479 by 141.156.187.235 (talk) "detail" removed.
There is no reason to indicate that the attacked was "black" and the victim was caucasian. There is nothing to suggest the attack was racially motivated. FrunkSpace (talk) 09:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Q: fiscal?
Howard from NYC (talk) 10:47, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Q: what about annual sales? rental fees? fiscal issues including operational costs? occupancy? vacancy?
 * These are all great questions but the Mall of America is owned by a private company so these figures are not typically disclosed. JayJayWhat did I do? 19:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Plants and Animals
MOA distributes over 100,000 lady bugs a year throughout the mall. This allows for biological control as the aphids are attracted to jasmine shrubs and Abicolas. Self-pollinating fruit trees. Over 30,000 live plants on property 2603:6011:A807:2454:F452:8558:DB3E:1444 (talk) 00:53, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mall of America


text:
Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)/Archive 6

 * Irish potato famine
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 1
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 2
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 3
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 4
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 5
 * Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 6

__________________________ Thanks for your diligance, JTD. I don't have the article on my watchlist; it's a sucker's game to make changes there.

In my experience edit wars often happen when someone feels that their concerns about the quality of an article are not being addressed, and that someone is being unfair, or domineering. I removed ironic quotation marks from around geocide. That simply had to go: the language was too vulgar.

I can't say for sure what was on the other pages and doctoring histories serves no moral good; but what I see here is anything but propagandistic gibberish. I don't have to ask what he was doing. It SHOUTTED at me. Stevertigo has delivered an object lesson in communication that will humble you: make you embrace Wikipedian ethos.

I wrote this poem in the style of John Robert Columbo:

 * ===By His Own Petard: Well Hung===

 * It is my belief,
 * perhaps more than a strong belief,
 * of npov supression,
 * througha deliberate policy of man

 * Surely there must be another view?
 * Perhaps ignorance, a common enough sight.
 * Eureka!
 * Ignorance blind must be the cause,
 * 'cause SHOUTTED in his eyes
 * was POV nonsense. named:

 * bogus pov
 * among the fake Irish - living abroad' pov
 * patently false pov

I have read all the existing Irish President articles: I was impressed with their quality. I know that you can participate in the writing of good encyclopedia. The quality of the articles that you have had a hand in is very high in deed. It is far above the median.

Your behavior in this talk group and about this article have been appalling.

Now Justice has been served.

 * Never again shall you run roughshod over wikipedians.
 * Never again shall you appeal to a phd for authority and refuse to discuss things intellegently.
 * Never again shall you pull rank:your judgement is suspect.

It is never fun to be hurt: to be shown ones weakness; simply learn from this experience and act with grace. You must always give respect to individuals. Never submit to prejudice. Eliminate prejudice at every cost.

I have every sympathy for the amount of frustration, that drove Stevertigo to fight, so effectively, your dictatorial supression of this wiki. I contribute anonomously: we need move beyond authority to quality.
 * Study npov: Ingrain it.
 * Study logical fallacy (and then  don't make them).
 * Read those posts  or they will trip you up.

This is  not the end of the world. This article could dispell ignorance. But first we must dispell the ignorance  inside ourselves.

Two16

From half-watching the controversy here over the last week or two (but not following it in any detail) and from reading the article again just now, I am left with a clear impression that it has, in fact, deteriorated considerably. It's now so full of qualifications and references that the flow of information is lost. Tannin

Sv, I am rather disappointed at your behaviour. To disagree is one thing, to deliberately tamper with an article to twist its meaning and add in provocatively POV opinions is immature and wrong, particular when you try to bury your POV twists in the text

I deliberately re-wrote the article to add in references you suggested, including a detailed section on the genocide claim, highlighted both the majority and minority opinions. Instead you proceded to twist the section, so that the minority view is treated as the majority view, and the majority as the minority. Worst of all, you had the audacity to categorize the views of the vast majority of the Irish people, Irish historians, Irish researchers, Irish famine experts as the "British point-of-view" and crude revisionism. By what right does someone whose views on the famine are so out of touch with the opinions of the IRISH people (it was after all an IRISH famine) and who is so ignorant of Irish history that he didn't know who the patriot John Mitchel was, to accuse the Irish people of holding a British point of view.

Furthermore, most of the people who read this page disagree with your 'analysis'. So obviously most of the people on Wikipedia are also crude revisionists. I have had a host of emails today from people slating your behaviour as unprofessional, unhelpful, irresponsible and ill-informed.

According to Mav "the changes Sv made were appalling. I see you have also complained to the mailing list. Good."

This page is about the Irish famine, not about an ill-informed neo-marxist rant. You have contributed a lot of good stuff in some areas, which is why your behaviour here is so perplexing and unacceptable. This is not a marxist Wikipedia. It is based on the principle of consensus. If the majority of historians, the majority of famine researchers, the majority of Irish people and the majority of people on Wikipedia who have consulted this page view it as factually correct, fair and NPOV, then that is the consensus. You do not have the right to vandalise it to put your minority POV opinion, twist everyone else's words to suit your POV and accuse all others who disagree with you as being crude revisionists and holding a so called British point of view. JTD 21:28 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)

Ill not answer these "comments". Tannnin is correct - for a "PHD" youre commentary reflects a 3 year old level. And your arrogance speaks for itself. -Sv

 * Tannin (two ns then one) didn't say anything about 3 year olds. If anything Tannin was criticizing the edits that were made to satisfy your POV. --mav

I may have complimented the wrong man. Its a crime ill have to answer for on my day of judiciousness.-Sv

Sv STOP reverting this page. Your version is distinctly POV and not appropriate for this article! Mintguy

 * Speaking as only an amature historian (and concerned Wikipedian), I don't think that Sv's genocide section is really that bad. It is perhaps longer than is warrented due to its relative importance to the subject of this article (and the quote needs to go) and of course needs to be copyedited for POV, but it didn't read like fundamentally biased POV that warrent outright reverting. We might, perhaps, be a bit too trigger-happy due to some of Sv's previous edits - which were, er, less than stellar or at all productive. Would it be possible to summarize the genocide issue here and spin-off a more complete article on the subject? I would find that interesting. --mav

Who's is the reversion? You Mint, might try youre hand at a re-write then, because his is no doubt POV.

I appreciate Two16's words of support. He makes a clear point which noone has picked up on, and that is simply that JDT's manner, his arrogance, rudeness, haughtiness, presumption, hypocricy, and foul mouth did no service to his cause. I choose my battles carefully, and this issue is one worthy of making a stand for. Despite an apparently spanking new "Phd", no pompous bigot will be respected, if he does not extend such respect, Nor has it the right to dicate terms, hold claim to 'higher knowlege', and disguise his "lazzeis faire" bigotry as history. The person of whom I speak is no doubt, a true 'inheritor of "the wind". --Sv

Can we clarify something. Consensus. In all that has been going on here, only two people have expressed opposition to the current page. Everyone else is in general terms happy with it. (Mintguy. DuggieH, Mav, Derek Ross, Sirubenstein, Tannin, 159.134.168.165, 9 emails I had received at the last time I checked my account). They may have quibbles which can be discussed. Only two people have expressed problems, Two16, who has a thought provoking interesting argument and has offered constructive suggestions, and Sv, who has spent days dumping an article everyone else is OK with and putting in his own POV in a garbled version of the genocide piece that uses POV language, a POV tone and a POV construction that seeks to put the majority view of those who have studied the topic as the minority view, while the view he expresses is written as though it was the overwhelming view.

'''It is one person's view. Sv.'''
 * It is not the view of the vast majority of historians.
 * It is not the view of the vast majority of Irish people.
 * It is not the view of the vast majority of people who have spent years researching the famine.
 * It is not the view of the vast majority of people who did the local studies on the famine's impact.
 * It is not the view of the vast majority of the people who read this page and had no problem with it.

Mav is right. As least it wasn't as over the top as his first attempt. But it still misrepresents the views of the vast majority of those who have written, who have researched, and who have commented on the issue. Consensus on Wiki means the vast majority agreement, Sv. It doesn't mean things Sv agrees with. And you show contempt for the Irish people and their famine by suggesting that they subscribe to British point of view. They don't. They subscribe to an Irish point of view, based on Irish experience. We had enough colonial masters in the past telling us what to do. We don't need American so-called, self proclaimed experts to tell us about our history, what it means, or what you think it means, and how we must accept your view as correct. We don't and we won't. JTD 05:10 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

PS: I've just checked my email. I've another message, the 10th. This one says 'just keeping reverting and reverting his changes. Stevertigo's behavior is outrageous. Maybe we should ban him if he keeps on pushing his POV like this. It is not first time he has acted the dictator.' JTD

You presume to speak for an awful lot of people, Jay. Thats quite remarkable.-Sv

Wow, Jay added a quote from a different point of view. Hope is (somewhat) restored. I feel the evil strings of Jay's domineering attachment receeding.

On a sidenote: I understood the praise of the community (Myself included) was for the improvement of the article - not that it was "perfect," complete, nor even good. Jay started with a biased diatribe, ( and insults - which I note Jay (now) refrains from ) and any improvement no doubt brings a chorus. And I also appreciate Mav reading my edits, and commenting (somewhat) positively on my last edits. I'm glad to see Jay coming (somewhat) around, albeit with a spiteful discarding of my edits. As for Mint - well... I'm sure youll be of continued help ... -Sv

 * If you lived in Ireland, Sv, you'd know what the overwhelming view of the Irish people is. You'd have seen the famine exhibitions, have attended the summer schools, have read the texts, heard them debated on RTÉ radio and TV, read all the famine commemoration coverage in the newspapers from the Irish Independent, The Sunday Tribune and The Irish Times to Án Phoblacht, heard the speech of our taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, on the issue, the comments of our president, Mary McAleese, attended lectures in our colleges on nineteenth and twentieth century history, read magazines like History Ireland, If you had done all that, it not too difficult to see what the general view is and isn't.  By the way, I've placed in the Seamus Metress quote into the body of the text. Though I disagree with it, it is a POV worth referring to. (I've also corrected Seamus's page on Wiki - the ISBN heading was wrong. It should work now.)

BTW, one of the comments re my re-write was to say 'bravo'. Another was 'really quite good'. Another in an email said 'way above normal Wiki standard!.' (just so you know!) And I am not coming around. I am always this way. I added in a genocide section because you convinced me there was merit in doing so, even if I disagreed with your analysis. And I made the point of the different attitudes between Irish local and Irish diaspora attitudes because I thought, in view of our 'discussion', it merited it. (Some urged me to drop both!) I had planned to put the Metress quote in but because my browser only allows limited space and would not allow me any more space, I was about to edit out a paragraph (I had already chosen the one) to specially make way for Metress when you began your 'edit'. I have since removed that paragraph to facilitate a paragraph on the famine in song & the Metress quote. Mav made some interesting suggestions on a restructure that I have been thinking about, in terms of how to best achieve what seemed to be a good idea. JTD 05:52 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Your sad haughtiness is glaring, even from all the way over here in rainy California. At least you cut it out with the pottymouth. Am i going to have to fight you tooth and nail each time; just to add a quote to "your article", though you may "disagree with it"? You keep avoiding one central issue Jay, - your smart enough not to call it "my article" in so many words, but this is in fact the real problem; your attachment to something etheral and amorphous - a wiki page. God forbid anyone change a paragraph, let alone a whole section, which you admit you find distasteful, and believe me, your distaste for the material shows - in your "NPOV" writing. As for your Irishness, Ill defer to what Slrubinstein said - that your homelanders' point of view does'nt prevail any different view from outside of your country - Diasporic debates are to be represented in the article.

Im going to redo the atrocity article... an article I started... with alist of atrocities. The Irish potato famine will be added under a category of its own,
 * would you suggest: The "misguided," "ill-informed," and "counter-productive" management ventures of Lord Russell? -Sv

 * If you follow the standard NPOV policy, and rely on the official definition of genocide, and not some biased politically motivated definition, that's fine. I hope that you will point out in your article that the view that the Irish famine was a genocide is help by only a small minority, and that most say that as there is no evidence that it was deliberate, that's fine. But don't twist facts to suit your own agenda. And don't start some drawing some ludicrous distinction between deliberate genocide and other types. There is no other type. Genocide by definition has to be deliberate. That's the actual definition of genocide. If it wasn't deliberate, it wasn't genocide. Pol Pot's actions, Stalin's actions, the Nazi exterminations of jews, Poles, the handicapped and gay people was genocide because it was a conscious, deliberate policy. To suggest that the Irish famine was genocide would be to show gross disrespect not just to the Irish, whose famine you would be abusing for political motivation, but also to the victims of actual genocide. Try to be NPOV. As for your personal insults, I'll treat them with the contempt they deserve. You do yourself and your beliefs no good by stooping to them. JTD 18:17 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

"Maybe you thought I was the Packard Goose..."

well, If you actually read my "POV" you might have gathered that I dont claim that the profile fits Gencide - as deliberate. My problem was with your POV slant, disguised as sterile NPOV, and of your charachterisation of the genocide claim as being far more "miniscule" and "fringe" than you say. The claim that the deaths by starvation of between .25M and 2M (take your pick) British subjects just a stones throw away from the homeland as being caused entirely by potato, or by mismanagement, is at best contrived.

You bury the real meat of the article in secondary details - youre so keen to explain that 'land use traditions' were a major culprit, that you dont bother to answer or deal with the more interesting material - the human story... of the slow deaths of roughly a million people. And its relatively recent history too! This isnt so far back that you say 'leave it buried'.

I would not leave the recent genocides in Rawanda to American historians nor to Hutu tribesmen... And theres a case to be made that what happened in Rwanda, just a few years ago, "was not genocide". Remember the images of UN soldiers chopping up bayonets in protest for being pulled from the area- leaving innocent people to die a butchers death... America must come to account for its neglected responsibilities, its vetoed actions in the UN for which there is no record of... dont feel like this is America-bashing or Brit-bashing. But dont dismiss the tie between the Starvation and the cruelties of Imperial rule.

The "genocide accusation" is no doubt politicized and inaccurate - to the common-use definition of genocide ( with the implication of intent) but is not dismissed entirely, as you claim, as mere "counter-productive" management. Its too easy. We dont allow for these excuses to stand in history for atrocities, whether they be deliberate or not.--Stevert

For crying out loud, Sv. You don't know Irish history. You don't know what genocide is. In case you haven't noticed, this is supposed to be a high standard reference source, which means you base claims on facts, not on simplistic theories. Genocide IS deliberate. That's the definition. What happened in Rwanda WAS deliberate, therefore genocide. Ditto with Stalin, the Nazis, Pol Pot. Ireland's famine does not fit the criteria. There are many common definitions which can be explored, but we have to be able to have a definition that is universally applicable in Wiki entries, not simply 'gut feelings'.

Wiki has that objective definition for genocide, the same one the UN, the US and most of the states in the world uses. Having decided that your opinions are superior to the vast majority of historians, researchers and Irish people on the Irish famine, have you now decided that your views on genocide are superior to the UN and most states in the world? Is there no end to your self righteous arrogance and presumption of superiority to everyone else? Please, Sv, apply proper academic rigour to your analyses. Don't simply jump in to everything with theories, decide that your opinions alone are NPOV, and everyone else's aren't. You've clearly got strong opinions and I respect that. But opinions in something like Wiki have got to be based on exploration of facts, not pushing agendas. That's why I put so many footnotes on the Famine pages, quoted Lee and Mitchel, while explaining why interpret facts in a certain way. Genocide is too serious a charge to be thrown about with relying on a commonly applied definition. If you just throw the allegation out without following that definition, both your article and Wiki will be discredited, as agenda-driven POV. From the evidence of some of your work, you have a lot of ability. Channel it carefully, wisely and objectively. JTD 19:28 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

I can tell that this issue is becoming tiresome for several people now - including myself. Can we all just leave the article as is and take a break in order to prevent somebody from leaving Wikipedia in disgust? If, however, you all do feel a need to continue then I suggest we take Sv's genocide section out, leave Jtdirl's summary here and then work on Sv's text outside of this article (with a "The neutrality of this article is in dispute" disclaimer at the top). Then based on the consensus we reach at the genocide article we can tweak Jdirl's summary. What I see here is a lot of wasted energy being spent in argument - we need to focus our efforts on building an encyclopedia. --mav

 * I'm perfectly happy to let this tiresome argument drop. I've tried to three times and gone off to work on other things. I've done major re-writes on this page twice; I've added in quotes from John Mitchel and Seamus Metress that support Sv's interpretation. I added in the genocide section because Sv argued (and convinced me) that it should feature (only then to get attacked by Two16 for putting it in). I've even added in a paragraph on how the famine is remembered in song, even picking a modern song that would be more aligned with Sv's analysis than that of most historians. Yet even simply trying to archive a page to make more room for people gets me accused of censorship, put in bold letters on the page. I've been called a British reactionary, a Tory (which if Sv knew my politics, is about as ludicrous as accusing Yasser Arafat of being a right wing Jew!), an apologist for genocide, a Holocaust revisionist. All for a page that has more footnotes, book references and a deeper analysis of all sides of the famine issue and impact than occurs on almost any page in Wiki. And all from just two people on this page, who either make personal comments, snide allegations or keep reverting a page that no-one else has made any complaints about. I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with never visiting this talk page ever again. I've NO PROBLEM working to adapt the article to incorporate other people's views; I've done that three times already. But what I can't do is twist my country's history and the story of my country's famine to suit theories and claims that are openly and quite literally laughed at in Ireland.

 * Just because myths exist doesn't mean Wiki has to take them seriously. Americans would (rightly) be furious if I rewrote an article on Wiki to mention and state as fact the often repeated myth that George Washington was actually a woman dressed as a man. (Yes, that claim is made. I've seen it mentioned in three books!) Or that Richard Nixon and Bebe Rebozzo were a secret gay couple (even though some of Nixon's own aides speculated that it might be true! One aide called them the 'fag boys'!) Or that Bill Clinton is really a virgin! (Ok, I made that one up!!!) All I want to see is a factually accurate article that reflects the reality of what happened and that varying analyses that have been placed on it, explaining where those analyses came from. That is what I have been told the page does. Only two people disagree. And disagree. And disagree. JTD 02:54 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

Not so fast Tyrant. You are being expelled by the Wikipedian Immune Response. The metaphor can change: but, given immune system, you are a disease. The Wikipedian Ethos is kind but logical. It is your Logical Fallacy to base an arguement on an appeal to Authority. QED. First year philosophy students would probably fail their  Introution to Philosophy , if they did not understand this. You devalue your Alma Mater's degree.. Why won't your actions devalue your reputation among your peers as well ? Won't they turn you out to the dogs? After all you have made their work more dificult? Your words tarnish from reason deficiency. When push comes to shove, you will receive a wiki awakening. Didn't you read ''replies to critics? ''

You are in conflict with The Wikipedian Ethos. Your posts will not have any credibility with any one who matters here: npov is not afraid of strong statments. It is enough that statements be free from error and logical fallacy. The Jeffersonian Radical Free Speech Brigade will provide logical defence for Lockdown Sv Rule. Who will defend your actions ? You have committed every faux pas that is listed for my community. Your ad homineim attacks against Lockdown Sv Rule will make him a Revolutionary Hero: " I have sworn eternal hostility to every form of Tyrany in the Wikipedia."

As the wikipedian with the greatest knowlegde, of your Tyrant Crimes, I think that this is just:

 * voluntarily stay out of Irish Potato Famine one month --- This will be so that we can demonstrate the power of npov.

to learn how to present anothers arguement clearly in a manner they would agree
 * summarise the all arguements made in Archives 1 through 5 and the current talk

 * write a comprehensive encycopedic mpov article on coffin ship
 * append a photograph of what the blight looks like to potato blight

You should have no fears that Irish potato famine will be ruined. Because you didn't understand npov, you could never bring yourself to trust it. Please trust me: I have sworn eternal hostility to any form of Tyrany in the Wikipedia. I believe my offer is fair: What treatment can you expect after I have prepared the wikipedians? Would you like to see how far npov can go to protect npov?

Then recieve Poetic Justice. Read the new article how_ to_read a_poem. Then read the talk.

The Community will want to read your response here. If you want a fight, Wikipedians will take it to you, we have marshalled our resources. There is nothing more for you to say except, "I accept" or "In spite of all the object lessons, I disagree" User:Two16

LOL -Stevert

This article has since been moved to Poetry analysis. --Theo (Talk) 11:15, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--

Slrubenstein invited me to mitigate the debate between Stevertigo and JTD over what an encyclopedia article should or should not include with regard to the genocide claims. I’m not alone in noticing a tone redolent of a polemic in Stevertigo’s radioactive aside, but I do agree in principle that those claims need to be addressed.

To reconcile the need to address the genocide claims, albeit the claims of those scholars in the minority, and the need to balance the tone of Stevertigo’s controversial section, I’ve tried to weave together other relevant Wikipedia articles, Stevertigo’s polemic, and my own information, hoping to form an article on the origins of the potato famine. This new section tries to trace Britain’s role and briefly introduces Stevertigo’s claims.

I hope this new section can reconcile the debate.

172

Social, Political, and Economic Origins of the Famine
The Union Act stipulated that Ireland would have in the United Kingdom one-fifth the representation of Great Britain with 100 members in the House of Commons. The union of the churches of England and Ireland also cemented British rule, strengthening the preeminent position in Ireland of the Protestant Episcopalians by securing the continuation of the British Test Act, which virtually excluded Nonconformists (both Catholic and Protestant) from Parliament and from membership of municipal corporations.

Part of the agreement that led to the Union Act stipulated that the Penal Laws were to be repealed and Catholic Emancipation granted. King George III, however, blocked emancipation, arguing that to grant it would break his coronation oath to defend the Anglican Church. A campaign under lawyer and politician Daniel O& led to the conceding of Catholic Emancipation in 1829, so allowing Catholics to sit in parliament. O'Connell mounted an unsuccessful campaign for the “Repeal” of the Act of Union.

Not until 1828-29 did the repeal of the Test Act and the concession of Catholic Emancipation provide political equality for most purpose, including free trade between the British Isles that Irish merchandise would be admitted to British colonies on the same terms as British merchandise.

Political equality and laissez-faire were mixed blessings though. These advantages were not enough to offset the full impact of Britain’s Industrial Revolution. The time of the Potato Famine coincided with the era of Pax Britannica between the Congress of Vienna (after the defeat of Napoleon) and the Franco-Prussian War. Britain then reaped the benefits of being the world’s sole modern, industrial nation. Following the defeat of Napoleon, Britain was the "workshop of the world", meaning that its finished goods were produced so efficiently and cheaply that they could usually undersell comparable, locally manufactured goods in other markets.

Within half a century agricultural produce dropped in value, estate rentals declined, while the rural population increased substantially. When the potato, the staple food of rural Ireland, rotted in the ground through the onset of blight in the mid-1840s, thousands died of starvation of fever in the Great Famine that ensued, and thousands more fled abroad. Unfortunately this coincided with a fashionable economic policy of laissez-faire, which argued against state intervention of any sort. While no one knows how many died (state registration of deaths, even if was possible given the vast numbers dying, did not exist, while the major religion, Catholicism, only just freed from the Penal Laws was poor at keeping records) best calculations suggest somewhere in the region of 500,000 died. One entire class, the cottiers or farm laborers, was wiped out.

Part of the problem was also the small size of Irish landholdings, a result of excessive family size (due in part to the disappearance of traditional methods of contraception and growing sexual activity outside marital relationships), among the poorer segments of society least able to provide for their children. In particular, both the law and social tradition provided for subdivision of land, all sons inherited equal shared in a farm, meaning that farms became so small that only crop, potatoes, could be grown in sufficient amounts to feed a family. Furthermore many estates, from whom these rented, were poorly run by absentee landlords and in many cases heavily mortgaged.

That the Famine "amounted to genocide" by the British against the Irish, is a divisive issue, and largely representative of the difference in perspective and attitudes among the Amercan Irish from Irish nationals. Few Irish historians accept outright such a definition, as "genocide" implies a deliberate policy of extermination. All are agreed that the British policies during the Famine, particularly those applied under Lord John Russell, were misguided, ill-informed and disastrous. Professor Joe Lee once called what happened a holocaust.

There is little or no conflict on the facts; the records are incomplete, for whatever cause, and thus the "debate" is largely a moral one; attempting to ascertain, whether within the policies of the British Empire, lay a racist, forgetful, or simply inconsiderate mentality that, despite its power, was impotent to handle a humanitarian crisis in its own backyard. To British historians, this is so rudimentary and axiomatic, as to be forgotten: Imperial rule was cruel, just as was America's 'Conquering of the West', which America does not, in any sincere way, admit guilt for either, simply because it would raise political issues now.

Irish, British and American historians F.S.L. Lyons, John A. Murphy, Joe Lee, Roy Foster, and James S. Donnelly, Jr., as well as historians Cecil Woodham-Smith, Peter Gray, Ruth Dudley Edwards and many others have long dismissed claims of a deliberate policy of genocide. This dismissal usually does not preclude any assessment of British Imperial rule as inadequate, or ill-mannered to handle the task.

Hope this helps.

172

 * Thanks 172 -- I'd like to know what Sv and JTD think about this. I am not an expert in Irish or British history.  For what it is worth, I think the above reads well.  I am not sure, thought, how much of it should be incorporated into the IPF article, or into a general article on Irish history.  As for the IPF article -- I still think there would be value to separating a historical narrative (what everyone agrees happened) from a review of different interpretations (why it happened, what the events reveal about the world at that time).  172's text is clear, but weaves the two together rather tightly -- and it isn't easy for me to figure out how to incorporate it into the article.  What do others think?  I want to emphasize that I am commenting only on the style, not on the content. Slrubenstein

-

Not on the genocide aspect (on purpose - but Nassau Senior does have a bearing on that debate).

I want to make some comments on parts of a recent version, to get feedback before incorporating the changes. They are mostly to try to give wider context, but in some cases that context reveals a flawed insight (e.g. about the need for outworking "proving" farms had failed). Even if the insights are useful, there's a risk that they might prove too much of a digression and so they are bound to need editing to keep their value without straying too far from the main thrust. So here goes, looking for feedback.

"Other lands were used for cash crops like flax." It's a characteristic of the potato that it doesn't work well as a liquid reserve of capital. Rice and potatoes need minimal equipment, so they can start from a low base (though they end up with capital in the form of land improvements), but corn needs special tools to grow it and use it for food; you have to start with some separate source of capital. Rice and corn can however be readily stored and transported to distant markets, whereas potatoes have limited value in this respect - in the "Communist Manifesto" Marx even commented on the Prussian Junkers' dependency on potato spirit as a source of cash. So potatoes could only plug into the cash economy indirectly, by enabling those other activities, and they didn't help much with climbing into greater corn production (N.B., corn is NOT maize) - I'll come back to flax later.

"...the traditional Irish practice of sub-dividing plots among the male children of a family, though reducing was still widely practiced in the poorer areas of the country." Two things:-

- This rested easily on Celtic systems of land tenure, which reflected a bottleneck in the ownership of capital etc. and not of agricultural land as such (Ireland was predominantly pastoral rather than agricultural until it was pacified, and indeed forcing the Irish into a settled agricultural existence was one tactic in repressing endemic resistance). In fact, the provisions in the penal laws enforcing subdivision except where a protestant heir turned up rested on misapplying customs that were already there.

- Nevertheless, many cultures have adopted the subdivision approach when circumstances warranted, even when that was not their tradition, most notably the poor white Boers in the South Africa of a few generations ago. Their ancestors had eventually picked up on customs suited to extensive use of land, even though (as shown by the New York patroon system) the ancestors of those ancestors had customs relating to intensive use.

The point here is that the customs were not uniquely Irish, and also that wherever there were customs relating to intensive or extensive uses, they tended to have a time lag and survive past their best fitness.

The tradition of electing monarchs from among a limited group is merely an analogy with subdivision of inheritances, not an extension of it. It can be found in many cultures, for instance the Yoruba of West Africa, the Accession Council of the United Kingdom, the Cardinals of Rome, the Electors of the Holy Roman Empire and indeed those of the United States of America. It is in fact a flexible mechanism that can be adapted in many different directions - but this in turn shows that it is NOT an instance of personal property. The nearest that the Crown of England ever came to this was probably how it was dealt with under the will of Henry VIII. But even that Crown was indeed reserved by a legal fiction from Philip of Spain when he married Mary Tudor, an exemption in favour of King Arthur should he come again - which shows that this mechanism does NOT handle a crown as property.

"A British Government report carried out shortly before the Famine noted that the scale of the poverty was such that one third of all small holdings in Ireland were presumed to be unable to support their families, after paying their rent, other than through the earnings of seasonal migrant labour in England and Scotland." This is highly misleading. It suggests that the need for outworking was itself equivalent to poverty. It is in fact something that occurs before that, with poverty only coming in when it is not enough even so. There are roughly three stages, though agriculture in Ireland did not pass through the first (for Ireland, as with many countries, the first stage happened with less settled and more pastoral forms of activity):-

- Smallholdings are enough to live off, and lifestyles have not changed to generate demands for outside goods and services. It is very hard for outsiders to mobilise local resources, and colonialists in these situations have tried various expedients. The price of labour is high, but the labour market clears.

- Smallholdings are not quite enough, either from taxes or rents or from the best land being somehow taken, or from simple increase of population past the first hints of Malthusian problems, or from some small requirements for things which need to be bought for cash. Then outworking becomes necessary to earn a top up, which is vital but need not be much so competition bids the price of labour down; outworking can be putting out/taking in of commercial work to be done in place, or migrant labour, or whatever. Things like flax become practical, since it can most conveniently be produced with intermittent work in the agricultural year and the passage of time for some stages (e.g. "retting"); it is not well suited to industrial scale regular production. The price of labour is low, but the labour market clears (since wages can fall enough for cutting wages to do this - even below a minimum for subsistence).

- Even with all the expedients, there is still not enough. Workers are now in a developed economy, and cash becomes a good proxy for standard of living. There is more cash but less substance (which is why Dollar and Kraay's work is nonsense, when it is used to claim that globalisation has helped poor countries). Unfortunately, this means that people have to hold out for higher cash wages, so the price of labour is high and the labour market cannot clear (wages have an effective bottom higher than the market clearing rate).

Ireland had long been in the second stage, which is merely a cash oriented extension of the mixed crofting lifestyle known to the Scots, with different seasonal activities none of which were enough to live off in isolation. Only the third stage amounted to poverty. The evidence in the British Government report merely pointed to this second stage, but the faulty inference was drawn that the third stage had been reached. So it had, but that evidence didn't go to show it.

"...Irish emigrated in notorious coffin ships..." It should be noted that while folk memory associates these ships with dangerous emigrations (also including Scots), this is misleading. Coffin ships were ANY ships with high risk of death, and in their day the ships that Samuel Plimsoll campaigned to regulate were also known as coffin ships. These were unseaworthy vessels loaded or overloaded with high risk/high premium cargo, and with unfit (even octogenarian) sailors desperate for a living, and often set up for insurance fraud. Coffin ships were ANY death ships.

It was the work of economists like Nassau Senior in that era - working BEFORE the famine hit - that first brought out a formal understanding of what is or is not harmful about the economics of situations like these. He was in fact involved with setting up laissez faire and workhouses - yet he understood the nature of the problem of exporting staples from Ireland, despite being one of the most notoriously hard hearted in applying stringent remedies that he saw as cures. But the thing is, he and his like were NOT recommending simplistic and harmful measures. The mistakes were not made by the economists but by the statesmen who misunderstood them. Oh, and right now the IMF is REPEATING the screw ups in places like Malawi, and with generic advice that developing countries would be better off if only they could export freely (not if they exported their staples, they wouldn't be).

"...local relief was paid for through the Poor Law Union, which was funded by rates (local taxes) paid by landlords, on the basis of an estate's tenant numbers." A lesser mistake is that there was "a" Union; actually, there were several Unions. There is also a greater mistake, which is repeated under tithes. Since we are dealing with technical matters, it is important to be precise; while rates are LIKE taxes, they are not taxes (see below for the difference between tithes and taxes). The crucial distinction is that rates are not based on the tax approach of "the formula says someone in your position owes this much" - in fact "tax" means "assess", as found in (say) taxing legal fees. Rates are based on "the formula says you should pay this proportion of our budgetary need". It's a proportion, not an amount - and the burden will swing wildly depending on what is hitting the budget. The difference really shows up when numbers of indigent dependent on the rates suddenly blow out; it's another cause of variation like the one that lowers the rate when people get evicted. It produces yet another wrong incentive, in extreme cases - yet it works far better than a straight tax system when the actual local revenue burden is less. The whole area can be analysed by game theory, which shows up how you can get market imperfections that make laissez faire not work, from mechanisms like the "Prisoners' Dilemma". This also shows how to improve the formula (base rates on POTENTIAL capacity to hold tenants, not actual occupancy, and offset the amount levied according to numbers of actual tenants who do not hit the poor relief rolls) - and Nassau Senior's work shows that that only helps with keeping everything working efficiently, and that it does NOT guarantee that doing one's best is good enough. "Fixing" the system would have staved off collapse but made it more widespread when it hit, which it probably still would have. (That was what creating these "Unions" ended up doing, though not on such a huge scale.) That actually means that "Only central funding of Poor Law Unions from the exchequer could solve this conundrum..." is dead wrong. It would NOT have solved it, just ensured everything sank on an even keel with one of two possible outcomes: things get better before disaster hits and people wrongly tell themselves they found the solution; or, everything collapses and the whole state is full of roaming, starving hordes. Emigration was the only known, available, reliable and short term solution, if only by buying time and resources for other measures - and this, too, was brought out by Nassau Senior.

In the matter of tithes, these too were not a tax in the precise sense. Rather, tithes were a proportion of produce (and also, were not precisely paid to the state - though an established church may be regarded as part of the state, and tithes were bound up with this). This again looks like a quibble, and turns out to have profound effects. In particular, whenever and wherever tithes were abolished this was done not straightforwardly but by commutation for cash; when there were continuing cash payments, these were creating a tax where there had been none, with all its economic, administrative and political differences. The main one was an increase in the "transaction demand for cash"; it is one reason why an influx of Zionist funds into Palestine did not coincide with measured inflation - the economy needed more cash in it, since tithes had been commuted. An increase in the "transaction demand for cash", needless to say, makes it harder for independent subsistence lifestyles to continue and often forces smallholders to sell up (as in Palestine).

"Some landlords evicted... to 'clear' their lands to allow cattle grazing." This was not a new effect, but a chronic and endemic one that Nassau Senior had already looked at - and was noted by later observers such as Marx and Henry George (who however had axes to grind).

"From 1846 a disastrous application of the laissez faire economic theory and ignorance in London of the scale of the problem, coupled with the lack of the 'Three Fs' to protect tenants, turned a crisis into a catastrophe." Yes to the first, emphatically no to the second. All the second would have done was shift food from mouth to mouth (in the short term). In the long term, of course, it was a desirable measure in that it would have increased both capacity and access to that capacity - but in the teeth of the storm it was worthless. Possibly this just means "the lack of the 'Three Fs'... before the famine", which would be accurate.

"Native Americans" in these days is a euphemism for what used to be called Indians; though in those days, of course, "natives" didn't mean that.

The argument that grain exports should have been kept up can only be at best a sound long term argument. It conspicuously fails in the short term. This begs the question of whether barring exports of staples would have led to a non-survivable long term, and the question of whether relief arrangements could have diverted staples to those who would have been displaced by the flow on effects in the short term. Nevertheless, a sound system of rates and relief (which they didn't have), and the chance of a lower and manageable pattern of emigration to cope with long term flow on problems, would have made barring the export of staples work. See also Solon's reforms in Athens.

"The growth in the numbers of railways made the importation of foodstuffs easier..." - irrelevant, in Irish circumstances. Communications were quite good enough to bring people and supplies together, by sea and by land. The difficulty only relates to costs of resources - and there were workers to be had, while there were no fundamental geographical problems (which is why geography had always favoured invaders strategically and logistically).

"The 1870s agricultural economy [had] access to new farm machinery..." - this is irrelevant to the food problem; it only affects financial issues and productivity issues in terms of proportions of product to input, not issues of total capacity to produce. Productivity measures like improving land, those mattered - not ways of getting the same amount of food produced for less money (unless, of course, the displaced workers were separately given places to go - which should be accounted to those changes, not to the machinery).

"...state intervention was quicker, more effective, and more directed than had been the case in the 1840s." True and irrelevant. This only relates to moving food from mouth to mouth; had there been no improvements in access to total supplies, this would not have helped. This reasoning is the same sinking-on-an-even-keel-is-safe fallacy mentioned before. The actual improvements are ably described in the introductory part of Keynes' "The Economic Consequences of the Peace".

For "Emcumbered" read "Encumbered".

Population drops for Ireland are very similar to ones recorded for the Scottish Highlands after their changes of economics and lifestyle. They should probably not be ascribed simply to post famine changes; after all, for these things that was more a precipitating event than a cause proper.

I hope these comments can be incorporated usefully. PML

title: Talk:Great Famine (Ireland)/Archive 6