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Talk:Alternative hip hop

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Alternative Rap
Cypress hill is definetley not alternative rap purely because of the fact that they have a lot of gangsta rap influence with songs like Kill A Man, alternative rap in a sense is a less mainstream version of pop rap with its very soft sound and clean lyrics, artist lile Lupe Fiasco is a pretty good example of alternative rap and Kanye West was alternative rap until the album Graduation which made him a pop rapper because of mainstream influence on his music. Rappers like Nas and Busta rhymes are definetley not alternative rap because of their hardcore influences even if Nas does have a poetic rap delivery but is still mostly a Mofasio Rap artist with aggressive lyrics, Busta Rhymes' delivery is not soft or poetic enough to be alternative rap.Xx1994xx (talk)

Sounds to me like you made this definition up yourself with your own arbitrary/narrow rules and regulations that no one knows of but you. I was there when Cypress Hill came out in ’91. I was there when Nas and LONS came out…You sir, have no clue what you are talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 16:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

There should be some info about the roots of Hip Hop as an alternative style of Funk and Disco. "Rappers Delight" was alternative Disco. The proto Hip Hop hit "Double Dutch Bus" was alternative Funk. Early Hip Hop acts and New Wave acts used to influence each other. Malcom Mclaren, the manager of the Sex Pistols, was the first major label artist to include scratching on his work. Afrika Bambaata of the Zulu Nation was heavily influenced by the German Krautrock act Kraftwerk. Alternative Rock stations would play Kool Moe Dee tracks like "Wild Wild West." Blondie had one of the first break out Hip Hop hits. Wham! Started out as a UK Hip Hop Crew. Adam Ant, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Beck all worked in Hip Hop at one time. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 13:49, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Alternative vs. Conscious
Isn't the same thing? Can't we group them all in one catergories? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.232.119.243 (talk) 23:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Alternative vs. Underground: Proposal
Alternative hip hop is only a subgenre of hip hop music. Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop, but is also commonly used to refer a category of hip hop encompassing unsigned/independent/local hip hop artists.

Here is my proposal to settle this. If most agree with me then let's reorganise into two articles as follows...

Definition of Alternative hip hop
Alternative hip hop is a genre of hip hop that differs from the mainstream. Mainstream rap is commonly generalised as superficial and materialistic. Alternative hip hop artists strive to create music with artistic merit. Lyrical topics are broad and often positive.

Artists

 * Freestyle Fellowship
 * Abstract Rude
 * Aceyalone
 * De La Soul
 * Dr. Octagon
 * Common
 * The Roots
 * Kanye West (one might say he defected from alternative to mainstream, another might say he blurred the line between the two by becoming a popular alternative artist)
 * MF Doom
 * Talib Kweli
 * Mos Def
 * Fort Minor (similar case to Kanye West)

 * I completley agree with this list and should be added to the article.Xx1994xx (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC).

Definition of Underground hip hop
Underground hip hop is a subculture of hip hop. To most people, underground means unsigned or independent of the mainstream. This definition refers not only to music, but also ideals, beliefs and political views.

Underground hip hop is also used to describe a genre that usually includes any unsigned/independent hip hop artists. These artists usually fit into the alternative hip hop genre, but can also be nerdcore or emo rap, among others.

It should also be noted that Underground hip hop as a genre is more often applied to west coast Alternative hip hop artists than east coast Alternative hip hop artists.

Cultural Elements
Although underground hip hop is part of hip hop culture, there are some defining elements, including: Entertheinferno 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "Backpacker" clothing style, as one example
 * Crossover with metal/emo/punk culture
 * Political views - often include anti-Bush sentiment, as well as hippie and environmentalist views

Your Feedback
Provide any feedback you have after this line and remember to sign your post.

So Called "Alternative" Hip Hop
This whole article on Alternative Hip Hop is completely misleading and disrespectful to real Hip Hop music. The Golden Era groups that are listed in this article are Hip Hop artists, not "Alternative" Hip Hop artists. This is a very serious mistake to mislabel them. It discredits the whole Hip Hop movement and culture. Most of the so called "mainstream" Hip Hop that is used to distinguish a difference from so called "Alternative" Hip Hop in this article, is actually Rap music, but some of it is simply Hip Hop music as well. This is not my opinion. This is fact and can be backed up with undisputed truth. One simple point is that none of the artists listed in this article have ever... EVER... (one more time)... EVER... referred to their music as Alternative Hip Hop. Alternative hip Hop is a label that started being used by journalists and business people outside of the Hip Hop culture, to describe "non-offensive" Hip Hop groups around the same time those Hip Hop groups started doing large tours with Alternative Rock groups in the early to mid 90's.

You see all of the artists in this article are from the same genre (not a sub-genre) as KRS-One, Big Daddy Kane, Rakim, Public Enemy, Gang Starr, Special Ed, Nas, Blackmoon, Wu-Tang... It's called Hip Hop music. It should have "music" at the end because it is not the same thing as Hip Hop. hip Hop is the culture that incorporates more then just the music.

Because of articles like this, most people don't even know what Hip Hop music is... To explain why this is not a separate sub-genre let me explain something. As I already said, Hip Hop music is not the same as saying Hip Hop. Hip Hop is the culture and is comprised of five elements. Hip Hop music is made by a DJ and MC. It is centered around finding breaks or samples in records in which the MC rocks rhymes that promote love, peace, unity and having fun. It encourages originality, skill, wit, and expression... The Universal Zulu Nation created this movement called Hip Hop and defines it.... They also backed and raised most of the groups on this list that are mistakenly being mislabeled as not the epitome of Hip Hop music.

One of the main things that puts the era this article refers to apart from other eras in Hip Hop is that technology advanced around 1988 and all of a sudden we could sample a lot more from other recordings (vinyl). All of a sudden very complex productions incorporated sounds from lots of records instead of previous eras when only a drum machine, a cut, and a short sample on a SP was possible. The other thing that happened in this era was Yo MTV Raps. It brought Hip Hop music to everyones home across the US and beyond. Neither of those factors created a new sub genre.

I will talk to my fellow ahki (brothers) in the Universal Zulu Nation about this article. I believe it is time for the mislabeling to stop. It's really out of hand. Big business has come in and decided to name what it wants to as Hip Hop music and in turn "Alternative". This article stands right behind it as if it has some kind of legitimacy, but EVERYBODY who is a Hip Hop head knows that these groups are NOT "Alternative" Hip Hop artists, they make Hip Hop music.

Simply stated, the "Alternative" Hip Hop referred to in this article is not it's own sub-genre. It is real Hip Hop music being mislabeled (period).

Tdcamp (talk) 09:08, 13 September 2013 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Alternative hip hop, like all genres of art, is a social construction and as such the definition is open to debate."

If with the term "social construction" in this sentance, the statement "Alternative hip hop, like all genres of art, is a social construction" is meant to convey that any musical work one calls "alternitive hip hop" happens to be the product of an agent operating under certain social conditions (as opposed to working in a vacuum), or if it is meant to establish that the term "alternative hip hop" was created by such an agent, then the statement is quite true. However, a "social construction" typically is opposed to a "natural kind" in that it is only conventional. In this sense it is not altogether clear if in fact the statement is true: take the art genres "Oil Painting" and "Punk Rock":  it is not merely as a point of convention that we say these two genres are different, there is a matter of fact about it. However, in neither of these senses does it straightforwardly follow that "as such the definition is open to debate." I do not mean to contend that the definition isn't open to debate, but only that its openness to debate isn't tied in any direct way to whether it is a "social contruction". In the first case, consider the terms "integer" and "one": both terms where surely created by agents in a social setting, yet their definitions are particularly rigorous. As for the second case, i might say that a man is jewish just in case his mother were jewish. "Jew" in this sense is a social construction, it is purely social convention and not a natural kind in any ordinary way. Nonetheless, we already stipulated a perfectly rigourous definition. 71.232.30.194 02:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC) -J

 * The only point I was making was that discerning between one genre of music and another is a far different activity than discerning between (for example) hydrogen and carbon. House of Scandal 13:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I think we should use the talk page for new artists you want to add -- or require citation. will.i.am and fergie hardly qualify as alternative hip hop... --Junius49 (talk) 22:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

There is seriously no such thing as "alternative hip-hop" it's a totally necessary division. I'm sure if you go so the places that this music started they would not know what you are talking about. For these groups, what they do is hip-hop and what it's classed as is underground hip hop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.83.223 (talk) 11:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes! Agreed.  "Underground" and "alternative" are meaningless, pretentious terms anyway, and are not encyclopedic terms.  Such artists are merely less popular because they aren't signed to major labels.  There's nothing "alternative" or "underground" (whatever that's supposed to mean) about them, really, except that they're inclined to be different merely because of the obvious, demographic reality of selling fewer albums and doing smaller shows and as a result being more connected to their fan bases.  "Underground" and "alternative" are--and never were--subgenres of hip-hop, but are actually misnomers.  These distinctions do not denote anything musically unique. Ideogon (talk) 04:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

underground hip hop a redirect
This shouldn't be a redirect, as theyre sepereate classifications. For example, South Park Mexican was underground for many years, even though he offered non-alternative gangsta rap, and Common could be called a non-underground alternative rapper. Anyone wanna help me create this new page?--Urthogie 13:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree, but I would have a really hard time drawing the lines between "underground" or "alternative" or "mainstream/major label" artists, specifically those from the early 90's. Does "underground" specifically mean "non-major label," or does it refer to a hip hop sub-culture, or does it merely mean that the artist doesn't sell all that well? I don't think there are any resources that aren't too pov for an "underground hip hop" entry. Perhaps the Alternative Hip Hop and Underground Hip Hop entries could redirect to an Alternative/Underground Hip Hop Entry providing many concepts of "alternative" and "underground", which would also underscore how alt. hip hop influenced contemporary underground hip hop artists, and that the vocabulary has simplied changed because of the increasing commercialism and decreasing variety in the mainstream hip hop industry. Dontplaytheirgame 15:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Underground hip hop can refer to two things. A)Artists who are not yet signed to a major label, but want to be signed(aka unsigned heat).  B)Two distinct subcultures in hip hop that pride themselves on being unsigned to a major label: hardcore rappers who pride themselves on being too hardcore for public consumption and indie rappers who pride themselves on being too true to the culture and unique for public consumption.

 * Alternative hip hop refers to artists who do not embody the mainstream musical approach. They can be underground or signed.--Urthogie 15:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The woter is bach 41.114.166.168 (talk) 18:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

This articles is littered with problems concerning facts.

 * I think you're going to have some major problems making this an article worthy of Wikipedia. From the start, there's even dispute as to the definition of 'alternative hip hop', and because of this most of the references would probably be POV.  Is there a definitive authority on what constitutes 'alternative hip hop'?  If not, maybe the page should redirect.--Alex 18:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Alex, it actually is possible to write pages on ambiguous terms, wherein each similar meaning is addressed.--Urthogie 18:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, alternative hiphop. This was a pretty ok article but you need to remember to compare the rap-scene of the day of those older records to say why it classifies as alternative. There is so much independent rap out there and their all different so it seems a little crazy to put them all under one label without having a damn good reason. Heres some more names worth mentioning; Rhymesayers; Atmosphere (the guys have sold a lot of records), J-live (if Mos-Def, Talib Kweli and Common qualify, then he does)

Tracing down influences would also be great, especially in validating the facts. There is nothing like an absolute fact in this genre, it hasn't been historized as for example rock so every statement needs to be called for and explained. A hell of a job isn't it... - Maucca

underground hip hop (another) redirect
I have a few issues with this article.

First and foremost, the introduction "Alternative hip hop or Underground rap is a style of hip hop music distinguished by artists who either chose or are simply not able to break into the commercial hip hop scene. Positive lyrics are often a hallmark of alternative hip hop, which detract from the materialistic and sexually fueled lyrics of mainstream hip hop." This is an overly opinionated view of the entire hip-hop genre. I don't define any of the alternative hip-hop I listen to as having 'positive lyrics.' On the contrary, most alternative hip-hop just have lyrics that are alternative to the current rap scene. These lyrics have always been very diverse including, but not limited to politics and sociological issues.

Next, alternative hip-hop has just about as much to do with commerciallity as 'alternative rock.' One could argue that alternative rock artists are just as popular, or more popular than traditional rockers. The same can be said of alternative hip-hop. Kanye West, The Fugees and the Black Eyed Pease come specifically to mind. As to my first point above, their lyrics are not all 'positive.' These examples are also as popular or more popular than many so called 'successful' hip-hop artists. The turn of the millenium has given rise to many 'alternative hip-hop' artists that have had huge mainstream success, such as the Gorillas, and the projects of MF Doom and Danger Mouse.

My next gripe is a very major one. Nowhere in this article should there be a section for 'genres related to alternative hip-hop.' The idea is just absurd. Most genres are all interconnected, and large grey areas separate them. 'Neo soul' as it is described here lists artists that are combining many genres, including hip-hop, R&B, soul. Why isn't alternative rock, Neo-metal, and Rapcore music listed here? 311, (hed) P.E., Nonpoint and other countless rock bands have been hugely influenced by alternative hip-hop, and have just as much in common with it as Boyz II Men.

Really, whoever wrote this article is trying really hard to describe an area of popular culture that has been badly defined, and here is no exception.

 * I agree with your comments-- this article seems to be trying to push Alternative hip hop as something that "redeems" hip hop, as if its not ok to be talking about girls and partying. I plan on doing a complete overhaul of it once I get some other tasks done.  Feel free to help in bringing it to a neutral point of view.  Peace, --Urthogie 20:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I'd like to add; the definitions of 'underground' and 'alternative' are completely wrong in this article. First of all, Underground isn't a sub-genre on it's own, (although many people will argue that a lot of underground rappers follow a certain style of rapping, and therefore making a good reason for a wiki page on it) all rappers that belong to independent labels or less-famous labels are underground, meaning non-mainstream, not meaning that they all belong to the same sub-genre. Also, most horrorcore rap and most of Chicago's underground rap does not fit into the descriptions of 'alternative' yet both of them are mostly undergound. There is also an argument about how to define 'undergound rap' from non-underground rap. Some people class any rapper who isn't currently having mainstream success (such as rappers like Rakim) as undergound, and other rappers like Canibus, who is widely regarded as being an underground rapper, but has had a gold-selling album, which many people argue makes him mainstream or 'mainstream and undergound'and Papoose who was the first unsigned musician in America to recive coast to coast airplay. Different sources seem to give different answers to this.

Second, alternative IS a specific sub-genre of rap, whereas undergound isn't, so there should be 2 different pages, one for undergound, the other for alternative (or maybe no page for undergound at all). The definition of alternative rap on this page is pretty vague. I'm not quite certain what the 'official' way of defining alternative rap is, but the description given on this page could easily mean christian rap, or any 2pac song with positive lyrics for that matter. A lot of alternative rappers try to make their music sound as diverse as possible and many use abstract lyricism, which also wouldn't fit the description on this page. To be honest, i'm not sure if their is a correct way to define alternative rap.

Third, the beginning of this article sounds like all undergound is different from mainstream because mainstream talks about sex whereas undergound is more positive. This is completely false, the majority of 80's mainstream rap music does not talk about stuff like that and there are a lot of 90's/00's rappers too, also there are a lot of underground rappers that do talk about these subjects, this statement sounds like a stereotypical generalization rather than actual fact. This article sounds biased towards underground and against mainstream.

 * You're correct. It's a biased piece of sh...misinformation.  Feel free to edit away its prejudice.  Thanks, --Urthogie 20:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never even heard the term alternative hip hop used. It has always been underground hip hop. Jdotpitts 16:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Search "Altnernative hip hop" on Google and you will find countless entires regarding the subgenre. The term itself has been in use since the mid-1990s (as a label for the non-Hardcore/Gangsta acts that became popular at that time) Chubdub 16:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that defining underground or alternative rap is a sticky subject. Common themes in hip-hop classified as alternative or "underground" as a sub-genre are differences in: subject matter, lyrical technique, and/or "beats" from those of the mainstream rap scene of the time. The lyrics aren't necessarily positive, and I believe that classifying underground rap as positive is an overgeneralization. Also, a vast majority of the artists are either unsigned, or on independent or lesser-known labels and pride themselves on not conforming to the standards of mainstream record execs. I think the problem comes when underground or alternative rap as a GENRE isn't distinguished from underground rap as rap that isn't well known. I believe that the above themes would be a start to defining alternative rap as a genre. -Justin (5/3/06) firstly, i can't think of any directly negative lyrics from Kanye West, Fugees, or BEP as suggested above. perhaps other than 'shut up' by the Black Eyed Peas. However, i would argue that BEP, if to be considered 'alternative' in any way atall since 'Where is the love' (making endless party tracks, mainstream production, simple lyrics), are certainly fringle members of the sub-genre. Whilst i appreciate the term 'alternative hip hop' is not often used, i feel this article does fullfill a roll, in that there are two distinct meanings for 'underground' hip hop; the one of not being signed and available to the mainstream, and the one attempted to be tackled by this article, ie the style. Whilst its not often used in hip-hop circles, i think 'alternative hip hop' is a more correct naming than underground, as it doesn't require an artist to be underground. and perhaps even that calling artists like Common 'underground' is an inacuracy in hip-hop circles, alternative being a more accurate tag, also offering clarity about what 'one' is talking about. I also feel that the article isn't quite so NPOV as some have suggested; typically, there is a positive, or neutral, message in alternative hip hop, as well as often story-telling. Whereas in 'mainstream', modern, hip hop, themes are often of anger (eminem), gun-violence (50 cent), agression (ludacris), and derrogatory language towards women (Xzibit). Pehaps also there should be some nod to the fact that alternative hip hop is more aligned to some of what used to be more mainstream in the past, production techniques particularly?. also perhaps a note about alleged 'selling out' by artists, arguably such as BEP. maybe that is pushing it thou?.Bungalowbill 16:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The black eyed peas are not much of a positive political force (at least thats my POV). Can you explain how "My Humps", a song about the fascination of various Black men with an aging model's secondary sexual traits is conscious or political in any way?--Urthogie 09:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thats why i was saying they have sold out since getting the 'aging model' in and are no longer make underground hip hop. they barely make any hip hop even. anyway, i didn't go 'all out' and say it because they have a rare track such as 'like that' which has an alternative sound.

 * Alternative hip hop is a completely subjective term, regardless.--Urthogie 13:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not an expert but I am a fan and would just like to add my 2cents. I found this page through NPOV disputes and agree this article needs work. The problem however is in trying to define something that is subjective. My personal experience with the term underground is that underground hiphop was from artists who did not have contracts, however alternative is music out of the mainstream therefore making it subjective. Fugees, BEP etc are great examples of alternative, however the problem is since the term is subjective it can change according to time and the person listening. For instance if your experience with hiphop kept you away from hardcore rap and you mainly stuck to "lighter", for lack of a better word, hiphop then Kanye West may not seem like alternative. The other problem I noticed is many of the things that make up hiphop culture is calssified as part of alternative/underground hiphop specifically, such as graf, turntabling, cyphers etc. --Zer0faults 18:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I like where the tone of this discussion is going. First off I think the most potent definition of Underground Hip-Hop is artists who are collectively outspoken about not signing to a major label, and instead don't sign, start their own label, or sign for merely distribution deals (see Atmosphere, Brother Ali, Sage Francis all signing to Epitaph records but just for distribution deals). Underground isn't synonmous with Alternative: De La Soul is clearly one of the starting points of Alternative yet they are Mainstream and I their records get airplay.

A new page for Underground
I might start a new page for underground rap. It will be a separate page from th alternative page, since underground rap and alternative rap are two separate things. I'm not really willing to write out ome huge article, so hopefully othe people will be willing to add to the page if I do make it. Also, the current list of underground rappers needs to be updated.

On top of that, I strongly disagree wih the opening paragraph of this current article but I can't edit it

Any thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fernoe (talk • contribs).
 * You can edit the first paragraph by clicking the edit tab.--Urthogie 10:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is the deal!! Underground hiphop and Alternative hiphop does have similarities, 1 being that the lyrical content does not follow the whole lets dance maneuver such as mainstream. Mainstream have guide lines on how to construct their album tracks for dancing purpose (unless you've been to a club where they play a track of Madlib and there was someone dancing then you can dispute this) and sales figure sky rocket. Underground hiphop and Alternative hiphop are those guys that have a lot to say and need not follow a certain pertain but for most can tackle just about anything with no restrictions in a more intellectual way and a way that requires attentive listening (due to a large use of figures of speech "a picture painted with no paint" in rhymes conducted. Look i think Underground hiphop and Alternative hiphop have got some what of a deep poetic influence on them which is 1 of many similarities. I'm not saying mainstream does not. it does but not as deep. yes you can keep arguing but you know an Underground hiphop artist or Alternative hiphop artist when you hear 1 . My thing is if you still playing that track 5years from now and at the age you are or will be, you have either an Underground or Alternative track. Radio has not killed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.11.134.77 (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Split this article for the sake of Hip Hop!!!
Alternative hip hop, in short, is that collective of scenes that are not part of the mainstream (i.e. not Gangsta, bling, pop-rap, etc). Common Sense, Plack Eyed Peas are considered alternative, but are mainstream to varying degrees. Many of the "hardest" Gangsta rap artists exist in hip hop underground. Some Artists bounce back and forth between the Underground and mainstream, while some record all alternative music in the mainstream. Underground hip hop, in short, is the collective of artists and their respective works that is not signed to a "major label"._akin to indie rock. --J. Daily 19:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I've never heard anyone ever use the term alternative Hip hop. It is amazing that so much work has been done on a subject which in my opinion is a manufactured phrase. Alternative Hip hop?...How about alternative jazz, alternative classical, alternative ...? The problem I think is that hip hop, when you try to define it, is already an alternative form...The term alternative sounds redundant maybe. Minibot
 * Well said.--Urthogie 07:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I find it odd that people are claiming to have never have heard of alternative hip hop, when a simple google search shows several publications refrencing it as a major subgenre of hip hop, including All Music Guide :

 * Alternative Rap refers to hip-hop groups that refuse to conform to any of the traditional stereotypes of rap, such as gangsta, funk, bass, hardcore, and party rap. Instead, they blur genres, drawing equally from funk and pop/rock, as well as jazz, soul, reggae, and even folk. Though Arrested Development and the Fugees managed to cross over into the mainstream, most alternative rap groups are embraced primarily by alternative rock fans, not hip-hop or pop audiences.

 * Besides, I don't think personal experiences should be a factor in assessing the credibility of this article. One article was nearly deleted, because one person claimed to have never heard of the golden age of hip hop and claimed that is was a subjective topic. Yet several links were presented to discredit this proposed deletion (interestingly enough, the person who made the article and strongly opposed it from being deleted was Urthogie himself). Nonetheless, I agree that this article does need a clean up. Underground rap and alternative hip hop are two different (though somewhate related) genres. I believe All Music Guide's definition of underground rap is (for the most part) accurate, and should be used as a reference:

 * Underground Rap falls into two categories. It is either hardcore hip-hop that pushes musical boundaries and has lyrics that are more inventive than gangsta clichés, or it is hardcore gangsta rap that wallows in all of the musical and lyrical cliches of the genre. What the two styles have in common is that they have little regard for mainstream conventions, and they celebrate their independent status. Underground rap also tends to be produced for less than hip-hop on major labels, and it often sounds like it.

P.O.N.Y. 14:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Underground is not a clearly defined genre
Underground is strictly a denotation by fans on artists of their choosing. Its meaning and the artists it pertains to are usually a personal and individual viewpoint that differs widely. Calling a rapper underground is like calling an album a classic, there are virtually no solidly established criteria. As such, I believe only a section relating this fact is necessary as a description of "underground" and "mainstream" (something I had done in the Hip hop music article..) but anyway, yes. PCP MC 03:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The term "underground" is heavily based on opinion --Jaysscholar 21:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

 * the the Hip-Hop project need to come up with a specific definition and classification for "underground", "mainstream", and "alternative". --Jaysscholar 21:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Any hip hop that does not have major label distribution, and is not on pop radio charts is underground. That's it.24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

How about we try not to legally define something that is undefinable? Hip Hop is Hip Hop and all the subdefinitions are hip hop too. Well they are all music and the undefinability allows it to grow and develop. Descriptions allow people to know what our music is, but it should never be closed off. As for alternative ..., well its alternative to all the mass media bs definitions of what hip hop is, and look how those definitions have harmed hip hop and so-called black culture. It is hip hop, maybe alternative or underground is a good enough definition for me. As for groups, I can't believe no one mentioned Spearhead. (unsigned)

 * Culture is a cloud. Description are tools.  They are focal points for talking about a cultural cloud.24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

 * Another way to look at genre is it use of delineation as a territorial power dynamic. This is especially important in the market space where artists and economic interests protect financial territory by playing cultural gatekeeper. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

 * In general, if music has rap on it, it's Hip Hop. According to Ed Love on Yo! MTV Raps in response to the genre Hip House. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I would consider Underground hip hop to be a category (not a genre) for unsigned/independent/local hip hop artists. It has nothing to do with a particular style of music within hip hop, although a lot of artists could fit into one genre like Alternative hip hop. However this is only because Alternative hip hop is a fusion of many different genres, and it's just as much an unspecific genre as "Experimental" music. Entertheinferno 05:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Notable Artists Not Mentioned
What about Anticon? I hope none of you object Anticon is kind of alternative hip-hop. Should we write something about? Sthow 17:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny that there is nothing about Atmosphere/Slug in this article also.. (Unknown user)

 * Anticon and Atmosphere are definitely notable in alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

As for groups, I can't believe no one mentioned Spearhead. (Unknown user, moved from 'Underground is not a clearly defined genre')

 * Alternative hip hop doesn't seem like a fitting description for Spearhead. Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think common's 'I used to love H.E.R' was very notable in underground/alternative Hip hop movement 75.15.225.138 03:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Why not read the article and find a good place to mention the artist you think is notable? Anyone can edit this article... it needs a lot of help anyway :) Entertheinferno 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Alternative/Indie/Underground
Underground hip hop is now its own page which succinctly explains that it refers to both Alternative hip hop and Indie hip hop and the difference between them.

However, is anyone ever going to clean up this page? I would prefer not to be the one who does it. This is the current opening sentence: Alternative hip hop or Underground hip hop is defined as a culture that stems from a distinct musical genre, rather than just the musical genre itself. Seriously, WTF? Is this supposed to say something like "...is a culture that stems from a sub-genre of hip hop?" Neither the current sentence nor my translation cuts it as an opener.

The opening paragraph is also a ass-whopping 13 lines of text long.  ◄ HouseOfScandal  ► 13:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Revision
Preferences aside, since I bitched about the bad state of the article, and since 4 days passed without comment from anyone else, I felt obligated to fix it. I just completed a major revision of the first section of this article; it's the most important part and was the part most sorely in need of clarity. The chronology of alternative hip hop is better off; I won't revise that soon or possibly at all.  ◄ HouseOfScandal  ►  15:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for stepping up and revising the opener. I felt that your definition needed revision, so I revised it further. The defining point is that alternative hip hop is artistically different from the mainstream, as you said. I removed the contrast to gangsta rap and pop rap, as they do not define what is mainstream. Also, there are many alternative hip hop artists that do not have a "positive tone" so I removed that statement. Lastly, I removed your definition of underground hip hop, as there is already a specific article for that subject. Instead, I made reference to underground hip hop and showed how it is related to alternative hip hop. Entertheinferno 09:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Reversal
Wikipedia has a policy on reversing edits that are not vandalism. You can find this policy in section 1 and 2 of Resolving Disputes.

You reversed an improvement that I made on Alternative hip hop. Please read the policy and either respond or change the article back. I'll change it back if I don't get a response.Entertheinferno 23:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I should have explained my rv: sorry, my bad. The reason I rv’d so dramatically is that besides your edits, there were changes made by a known vandal and I wanted to bring the article back to its best recent incarnation.

 * I included the removal of your addition in the rv because ideally openings to articles clearly define and delineate what is discussed therein rather than going into detail. The opening that I reverted to gives even a reader completely ignorant of hip hop a good chance at understanding what is typically meant by "alternative hip hop", "underground hip hop" and "indie hip hop" and how these terms often overlap.  The information you inserted into the opening is contained in the article already and just confuses the opening.  When discussed later, these points are made with a clarity that benefits from their placement in the article structure.  Conversely, phrases I removed such as "Rather, it is characterized as being against the flow of the mainstream" and "Many alternative hip hop artists have defied the genre" are overly vague (and I do mean vague rather than general).

 * Also, you deleted the very useful and clearly-written paragraph about “underground hip hop” and replaced it with the far less useful phrase “but the vast majority remain underground”. This (short) paragraph-long explanation, I am strongly convinced, does belong in this article.  Note that prior to my major revision the article didn’t discern between alternative, underground or indie hip hop and that same confusion will slip back in faster unless the article is clear about how these terms often mean different things, especially when discussed by musicologists, savvy music critics, and so on rather than music promoters trying to use as many buzzwords as possible.

 * The bit about "positive tone" you wisely removed was slipped back in after my revision by someone who fails to understand that alternative hip hop includes music that is too violent or vitriolic for the mainstream and well as “peace and love” material. Before my major revision there was a lot of misleading statements about alterative hip hop being characterized by socially conscious lyrics, etc.

 * Finally, why don’t you think “mainstream rap typified by gangsta rap and pop rap” is accurate? This doesn’t say mainstream rap is comprised of gangsta and pop rap only, nor does it say that all gangsta is mainstream.  If this isn’t a good sentence, what do you think does typify mainstream hip hop?  I’m interested in what you have to say on this because while I think your edits weakened the structure of the article, I recognize that you are looking at this subject clearly and with much, much more sense than some editors of this article displayed in the past.     ◄  HouseOfScandal  ►  04:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't rewriting of history a bad thing?
Minibot said something I agree with earlier... both "Underground" and "Conscious" are terms I've heard applied to this brand of Hip-Hop, but "Alternative" is a recently manufactured term which I've never heard anyone use in real life, it's only become a popular 'sub-genre' on these mass media sites. Besides this artificial division being detrimental to the culture, I think that more importantly it's inaccurate, and is a revision of Hip-Hop history from a Rock-centric standpoint. In other words, past artists and albums are being placed into a category that was created by websites like AMG because they figured "Hey, Alternative Rock is a defined genre, so it'd be useful to have an Alternative Rap category as well." I don't deny that it's a convenient way to define a roughly definable piece of Hip-Hop, but the way it's presented on this page and the term used just aren't historically accurate.

For example, De La Soul, supposedly the initial creators/popularizers of Alternative Hip-Hop, soon after releasing their landmark debut, toured extensively in '89-'90 with such mainstream icons as LL Cool J, Too Short, Slick Rick, and even NWA (poster). In the early '90s, Jazz influences were extremely popular throughout all of the East Coast rap scene, including undeniably gangsta groups such as Onyx, Black Moon, and early Mobb Deep, far from just groups like Tribe and Digable Planets. Even someone like Alternative hallmark Common had a start as a full-fledged gangsta rapper, as anyone who's heard his debut Can I Borrow A Dollar album can tell. Finally, where would you place a group like the Wu-Tang Clan, a very street-based group which gradually became accepted into the underground community?

This said, I think one of the following actions should be taken to improve the article:
 * This article not only merged with the Underground Hip Hop one, but edited to reflect the somewhat different meaning that Underground has from Alternative, or...
 * A "Criticisms" section placed in the Alternative Hip Hop article, summarizing the main disagreements that myself and other people have with the very existence of an 'Alternative Hip Hop' sub-genre.

I personally think the second choice would be the best course of action, and an acceptable compromise between the two camps arguing here. --IRua 22:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Opinion
No merge. The intro sections at the start of this article and at underground hip hop are useful definitions that follow the way hip hop music is discussed by contemporary critics. Where this article falls apart, I think, is in its attempt to present a coherent chronology. A criticism section in an article is never for editor criticisms; that's what a talk page is for. When one sees a criticism section in an article is to show that published sources have said. The introduction of some citable "so and so says alternative hip hop isn't a proper term because..." would be an okay addition. --House of Scandal 06:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I understand your emphasis on the need to cite criticism, except that this article in general has no citations supporting it either. In fact, the lack of documents even acknowledging the "Alternative Hip Hop" sub-genre, one way or the other, seem to me to be more proof of its lack of real existence. --IRua 20:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You aren't allowed to define anything at Wikipedia. You have to cite sources.
People who write this page, or have allowed it to stay as it is really need to read No original research. This is blatant original research:

 * Note that alternativeness should not be confused with originality. An artist might produce music that is highly original within criteria that mark it as mainstream hip hop.  Likewise, an artist might produce alternative hip hop that lacks originality and is derivative of other alternative hip hop material.

 * Hip hop is a diverse musical form that continually absorbs new influences from jazz, rock, R&B and other musical styles; many artistic takes on hip hop seen as alternative when they were made now fall well-within the corpus of the mainstream.

 * Loops sampled from a wide-range of musical genres have always been a part of hip hop, as have turntablism, spoken word, beatboxing, live instruments and the incorporation of visual elements such as breakdancing and visual art like graffiti. While these elements are often touted as hallmarks of alternative hip hop, it is only when they are used in innovative ways do they become indicative of it.

 * Despite a preponderance of lyrics in mainstream hip hop that lauds material wealth, hooking up, lawlessness and bravado, mainstream hip hop has always dealt with a wide range of subject matter. From its inception, hip hop has included material with a social consciousness, ranging from songs expressing political outrage to those that offer parables from which listeners might gain insight.

 * As such, although much music is purported to be alternative hip hop based upon its "positive message", such a designation is false. Very little music can be identified as alternative hip hop on the basis of lyrical subject matter alone.  Nerdster rap is one of few examples.

This is the opinion of Wikipedia editors. That's not what Wikipedia is for. The purpose of Wikipedia is to cite sources and tell what people say in the world. This means you can't give your opinion about how alternative hip hop is positive. You can, however, quote a reliable source saying that. You can't give your opinion about how gangsta rap is negative. You can, however, quote a reliable source saying that.

I see there's a lot of arguments on this talk page about defining everything. Sometimes, the very phrase itself is a definition. Take for example "underground hip hop". That's hip hop that's not on a major, mainstream record label, or not on a record label at all. Alternative is a vague term. But you ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DEFINE IT. It's against No original research. Thanks, --Urthogie 01:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

entire article is original research
"Alternative hip hop" doesn't actually refer to anything. Its a term used by music journalists who don't offer any concrete definition whatsoever. The entire history section and the definition were nothing but original research. It is original research to say someone is part of a genre that isn't defined. And it is original research to define that genre without using (several) reliable sources. There are no reliable sources that define this genre, so how can it be anything other than original research? I've basically blanked the content until this issue is resolved. I don't think this issue will be resolved, because I don't think the article is capable of anything but original research. Before reverting me, please reply to these points. Specifically: How can we write an article on a term that is never defined anywhere, and used differently by various journalists without writing original research?--Urthogie 03:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

For music, the best reference is the music itself. Music journalism is a commercialized amalgam of music history, music criticism, and music theory. It's a multidimensional distortion and information explosion separated in conceptual space from the music itself. Essentially (using analogy) its smoke not fire. That's why it's best to reference the music (recordings and performances). 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Music journalism is distorted by commerce and profit seeking motive. As a commercial enterprise music journalism seeks greater than market value returns on it endeavor. Thus artists that purchase full page ads are, rewarded with marketing editorial content. This dynamics distorts the information space. Journalistic platforms have traditionally had limited space for content, so those that obliquely pay for coverage are rewarded with monopoly of scale. Using biologic terminology, they "shade out" the competition. Thus citing music journalism as a source for accurate music information is a dubious effort. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Alternative is a re-branding of Punk, Post Punk, New Wave, and College Rock music for mainstream audiences. If you need linkage to hardwire a performer to the term, look for associations between artists to broadcasters that use the brand or performances (tours) that use(d) the brand. 24.148.87.42 (talk) 15:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

This Article Is a Joke
Agreed, Hip-Hop is not the same as Rap, mainstream or otherwise, Hip-Hop is the genre-similar alternative to Rap.

Like Jazz/Blues or Rock/Metal or Country/Western. Similar, but different. Many artists blend genres, but they're not synonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.117.229.195 (talk) 08:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

WTF happened to the article?
Who deleted all of the stuff and put this biased Rodrick information?/
 * Wikipedia editors did, enforcing our policy against unverifiable material and original research. The definition by Roderick is sourced, and the article is a stub.  If you have sources for other definitions of what alternative hip-hop comprises or for other content to add to the article, now is the time to cite them, so that the article can be written properly, from sources.  We are serious about sources.  Uncle G 23:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

can we use the all music guides defintion? (Curefreak 21:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC))curefreak
 * you can add it, yes.--Urthogie 00:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

i deleted the earlier thread cause i couldnt figure out how to correlate the two and i also the quote very offensive and wrong. (Curefreak 21:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC))curefreak
 * Sorry, but you can't do that just because you found it offensive and wrong. Please review Wikipedia: Policies]].  You've also commited a copyright violation, by the way.  I'm reverting you.  Please make an effort at integrating the sources if you want both there.--Urthogie 21:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

That seems very petty and childish "im reverting you" i read the article you recommend but you were the one who said that it was ok to copy the defintion from all music guide who is technically a reliable published source and goes a long way towards defining what "alternative rap" is much more than some book by some hack accusing people who listen to alternative rap of some sort of political bias wich is stupid and pointless not to mention that he says that urban listeners have merely shrugged at alternative rap when theyre have been some break out artists that appeal to urban listeners. i tried to find a way to incorperate the non opinionated stuff with the article from all music guide but it wouldnt have made much sense and there would have been some overlap. if you care to help me get this article looking professional i would appreciate it much more than childishness.
 * I didn't say you could copy it, I said you could use it or add it. Different things completely.  one violates IP law, the other doesn't.  By the way, allmusic guide is opinionated.  All music genre definitions are opinions.  You have mainstream ones and non-mainstream ones.  That's the main difference.  Feel free to add allmusic.com as a source per wikipedia policies.  I suggest you readup on guidelines and policies for wikipedia so that you can avoid problems such as this in the future, --Urthogie 23:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

the difference is that all music guide doesnt put heavily biased opinions where there should be facts in describing alternative rap. its one thing to say this is what alternative rap is and a complete other to put some political spin on something that is not needed.
 * You can add any other opinion to counterbalance it if you like, it just needs to be a mainstream source of opinion. The article itself isn't spinned: we neutrally present various opinions.  Feel free to add some!  See Attribution for what sources you can use that are considered reliable.--Urthogie 23:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point saying "alternative rap is only listened to white liberals" is completly stupid since most conservatives dont listen to any kind of rap music white or otherwise and i tried to put the reference to all music guide wich explains in better detail with alternative rap is but you took it down.

this whole copyright thing is confusing i would prefer if you could just tell me what i need to do to make it legal.
 * See Copyright violations for the policy regarding copyright violations. For how to properly cite the source you are using, see Citing sources.--Urthogie 00:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

you are really starting to annoy me, i asked you to explain this to me but you refered back to what i already told you was too long and confusing by the way ive been reading the whole discussion thing and it seems that you who seem to be ignorant to this whole thing decided to make youreself god whats up with that?
 * You've already spent enough time complaining at this talk page that you could have read and understood the policy pages 3 times over by now. If you've read them in full and don't understand a certain part of them, please tell me which part and I'll explain it.--Urthogie 00:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

i read it and i didnt understand any of it but i'll try to appease you and see if i can point out the most glaring stuff, i edited the offensive socio political/ racist stuff from that article since its pointless and offensive and i ask that you not reverse it at least until we can settle this dispute.

ok i cited the refence and added a link...

You can't remove stuff from the article because its "socio political/racist" in your opinion. Or because it's "offensive". Instead of removing valid sources, please just add to the article, without removing valid sources. You are yet to explain which specific parts of the policy you don't understand.--Urthogie 03:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

the things i removed are irrelevant to describing the genre it would be like saying "only white people vote for the republican party" and why did you remove my article? i followed what youre link said to do.. im getting really tired of youre ignorance right now.

"Only white people vote for the republican party" would actually be an accepted quote if a mainstream source said it. Also, note that the reason this quote is in the beginning is because its a definition. You did follow my link, but you also removed valuable content, which is considered vandalism, even if unintentional.--Urthogie 05:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

so that gives you a reason to remove my link?

you also cited a book but theres no link to this book wich seems like the same reason you deleted my thread so you are coming across very hypocritical for all i know this book could be made up and these are just youre warped views.
 * I never added the book to this article, so any argument that it's my view is bullshit. In fact, I think the quote is untrue.  But I actually understand wikipedia policies, and can actually see past my own opinions when I edit.  If you want your quote back do something quite simple: re-add it.  Just don't remove the current source.--Urthogie 05:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

so how do we know that this book even exists ? it sounds very unprofessional.

 * Haven't you ever heard of Google? It does wonders.--Urthogie 06:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I just checked amazon and couldnt find it.... i'm not sure why its up there if you and me both agree that it's wrong.

 * Dude, I don't mean to be rude but it's so damn easy to find the amazon link from google. I mean, you request policy pages to be read to you because they're "too complex", you are incapable of googling a book.  Whatever... Here's a link:--Urthogie 07:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

i really dont give two shits what you think of me cause i think you're an idiot too and i dont remember saying it was too complex i said it was too confusing. of course all of that doesnt answer why you feel like defending that article when you said you think its wrong.
 * Curefreak, please remember to sign when adding responses (just place four ~ signs at the end of your added text). --IRua 14:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

--- Whoever added the quotes from specific people really ought to give some information about who those people are. So what if some guy said such and such, who cares, unless some information on him is given. As it is, this is just a random quote.

"Smokin' Grooves Tour" example inaccuracies
The current article ends with the words "...giving as an example the "Smokin' Grooves Tour" of 1996 (featuring Cypress Hill, A Tribe Called Quest, The Fugees, Nas, Ziggy Marley, and Busta Rhymes — all of whom, with the exception of reggae singer Marley, are hip-hop performers who "don't fit the mold of gangsta rap")." This is a very inaccurate example, as the only people on that list classifiable as Alternative Hip-Hop would be The Fugees and A Tribe Called Quest. Busta Rhymes and Cypress Hill are especially in no way Alternative, Nas has used many elements of Gangsta Rap throughout his career, and as the article mentions, Ziggy Marley is pure reggae. An accuracy of "2 out of 6" does not make it a good example, so if no one has any objections, I'll remove that part. --IRua 14:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Do not remove sourced information. The text is what the source says.  If you want to claim otherwise, find a source that says otherwise.  Your personal opinion that the source is wrong has no weight at Wikipedia.  Wikipedia reports what the sources say. Uncle G 01:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This article needs work.
Okay, right now this article seems very POV. The majority of the article is a quotation criticizing the genre. No timeline is given, no notable artists are listed... It's unencyclopædic and really just uninformative as it is. Given the lengthy discussion here, I would think that someone more knowledgeable than myself would take an interest in this article's upkeep? Ipsenaut 03:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree i tried to contribute a little and i had to fight tooth and nail just to get a quotation from a reputable site on here.Curefreak 04:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but you can't give a timeline for this genre. People disagree as to what defines it, so a timeline is impossible.--Urthogie 19:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

emo-rap POV

 * "Hip hop artists who market their music toward non-urban audiences are often labeled "emo rap" "

which hiphop artists don't specifically market their music towards non-urban audiences (and what does this mean?)? the kyle myhre article is discussing "emo rap," a concept that the author calls "a bullshit term hyped up by the music industry to market white emcees to white hipsters."

in that particular quote, we see that "emo rap" is a term hyped up by the "MUSIC INDUSTRY" to "MARKET WHITE EMCEES." this does not qualify the assertion that "hip hop artists who market their music towards non-urban audienes are often labeled 'emo rap'." advancing this further, a hiphop artist doesn't market their music, their record label markets their music. when a hiphop artist markets their own music, this is almost always a diy tactic (like selling cds out of a car), and the customer base for such a campaign varies from rural towns to the suburbs to the inner-city. artists that have done this include ludacris, and i would like any editor to cite anywhere that ludacris, a favorite of both suburban and urban audiences, is an "emo rap" artist. this assertion is ludicrous and the sentence is hopelessly inaccurate. Fiftwekid 04:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It says some, not all artists.--Urthogie 19:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

 * "non-urban"? as in farmers? --Krsont 11:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * as in what morons in 2007 used as a euphemism for negroes--Hehpillt28 (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Why is this page so short
What the hell happened to this page?? it was so comprehensive before? why has it been stripped and killed... http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_hip_hop&diff=23331795&oldid=22916411 these were good days —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ppk812 (talk • contribs).
 * That version wasn't sourced and was original research, not encyclopedic.--Urthogie 19:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Plus with all this dispute and disagreement the article can't advance.Xx1994xx (talk)

--70.23.236.88 13:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

 * 1) REDIRECT Insert text

Gargage
With all this discussion why does this article still suck? --70.23.236.88 13:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

OUTKAST
I really feel Outkast should have some kind of mention in this article, because, according to this definition:

Alternative Rap refers to Hip-Hop groups that refuse to conform to any of the traditional stereotypes of rap, such as gangsta, funk, bass, hardcore, and party rap. Instead, they blur genres, drawing equally from funk and pop/rock, as well as jazz, soul and reggae. [1]

If they weren't already alternative hip-hop by the release of Stankonia, then they certainly should be considered alternative hip-hop after their last couple releases (Speakerboxxx/The Love Below and the Idlewild soundtrack), which deviate greatly from any specific genre of hip-hop.

This, combined with the group's accomplished status, warrants a mention in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.16.238.92 (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I thought when I read the article..."no Outkast?!? --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 01:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

OutKast is a good example of alternative rap because of their poetic delivery, clean lyrics and having pop influence without being mainstream which is why alternative rap is just a less mainstream version of pop rap.Xx1994xx (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC).

This is why people who don't know shouldn't add to Wikipedia pages. Your opinion is not fact. For your information Outkast does not have clean lyrics. Hip hop is a culture that encourages creativity and innovation. To say that Alternative hip hop is hip hop that deviates from those ideas would ignore the whole point of Hip hop in and of itself. There is no such thing as alternative Hip hop. Outkast, JayZ, NAS, Pharcyde, and Fifty Cent all do that same thing but because of the nature of Hip hop (cultivating new ideas and experimentation) they all sound different. That does not mean that they belong to different type of hip hop. If you don't agree with me that's fine, but try and do one thing, define Mainstream Hip hop, if you can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lli 09 (talk • contribs) 18:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Stone's Throw Records
An alternative hip-hop article with no mention of Stones Throw? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.181.47 (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Article Is Being Used For Wrong Purpose
This article doesn't make sense and is very misleading. It claims that an alternative rapper is one who doesn't concentrate on the mainstream rap themes. This doesn't make sense because I hear many of the rappers listed in this article as 'alternative' rapping about the same things that mainstream rappers do. Therefore the 'differing themes' theory doesn't hold up at all. So after concluding that, I'm left with one big question...What the hell IS the difference between these so called 'alternative' rappers and the 'mainstream' ones? The only possible answer is that the 'mainstream' rappers are much more popular with the teenage MTV crowd. Therefore, the only difference is that mainstream rappers are in fact pop artists. This highlights the need for a Pop Rap article which should handle all the pop rappers so that the real 'regular' rap artists like a lot of the ones listed in this article can return to the correct article that is [Hip Hop(music)].

Either way, anyone reading this, just know that many of the rappers listed in this article are in fact NOT alternative rappers, no matter what wikipedia tells you. Rest assured the local record store clerk WILL look at you funny if you ask for the alternative hiphop section. And if they actually have one, be prepared for some pretty weird stuff, cause that's what alternative hiphop actually is...really weird, usually psycho themed rap, but you'd never know that reading this article. According to this article alternative is anything that isn't cars women or bling, but it's actually the other way around, cars money and bling is pop, everything else is hiphop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.77.131 (talk) 07:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Essay
As it is written now this article reads more like a magazine essay on a music genre, Pretty much the entire thing needs a rewrite. Ridernyc (talk) 04:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Better yet, deletion. 75.56.194.81 (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose we merge Conscious hip hop into Alternative hip hop. Much of that article could easily be merged into this article, and there's very little difference--if any--between "conscious" and "alternative". Luksuh (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Against A lot of alternative hip hop is not conscious hip hop and many conscious hip hop artists are mainstream, not alternative.--May Cause Dizziness (talk) 21:31, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Against Conscious hip hop is Socio-Conscious while Alternative is an hip hop music that doesn't fit in any other sub-genre of Hip Hop music. Most alternative hip hop artists do not rap about anything that could be considered 'Conscious' other then maybe a track an album, while others don't even have that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HalifaxnBlack (talk • contribs) 02:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Against not close enough sub genres to merge into each other per above.  Red Flag on  the Right Side  18:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

For Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The term socially conscious music has been shortened to the term conscious music. It's a reworking of an understandable term to one that is less understandable. This strikes me as a new definition without reference to a legitimate dictionary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bikokid (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Against - Alternative hip-hop should just be deleted, no merger. Conscious Hip-Hop is hip-hop that touches on social stigmas, Alternative hip-hop is a term hardly uttered in the Hip-Hop community anyway. 98.223.21.132 (talk) 09:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This is a manufactured genre
So are Grand Master Flash and The Furious Five “Alternative Hip Hop”? How about Cold Crush Bros, Afrika Bambaata, Treacherous Three, or any of the other pioneers? How do you distinguish what is “alternative” and what isn’t? Do any of the artists labeled “alternative” by this atrocious article embrace that term? As somewhat of an amateur Hip Hop historian, I find this entry to actually be offensive and ignorant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.66.106.71 (talk) 16:31, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Timeline makes no sense
How can you have a section on the "decline" of alternative hip hop due to gangsta rap, when the biggest artists of the genre were most popular around the same time as their gangsta rap counterparts? In reality they both peaked at around the same time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.218.106.158 (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Rock-centric view of Hip Hop
I agree with others that this article is very rock-centric, and I feel that somewhere this needs to be said.

This is a problem with Hip Hop on Wikipedia and within mainstream media in general. People and the media and rewriting the culture to fit in with rock norms, and they're ignoring the actual culture, customs and language. Alternative Hip Hop is a phrase created by the rock press, it has nothing to do with Hip Hop. MarshallMolasses (talk) 02:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! 24rhhtr7 (talk) 08:11, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

This Is Exactly Why Suburban Kids Shouldn't Be Trying To Be The Authority On Hip Hop Or Urban Culture In General
This page is absolutely ridiculous, and I have to agree with the others who say it is insulting to real hip hop fans and artists. Underground hip hop is not alternative hip hop. This is not Rock n Roll. Underground IS hip hop. That's where it started, and where it will always exist the strongest.

De La Soul is alternative hip hop? Then so is Grandmaster Flash. No. That's what hip hop IS.24rhhtr7 (talk) 08:10, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

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Why does this horrendous article still exist?
This term "Alternative Hip Hop" is not a definable genre. No artists from the 80's or 90's ever used this term to describe themselves. The article fails to present a coherent definition of "Alternative Hip Hop". Is Cypress Hill "Alternative Hip Hop"? What about Wu-Tang? How about Ice-T? Schooly D? Audio 2? Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five? Cold Crush Brothers? Kurtis Blow? This term is fabricated by internet dorks that want to put things into a box. It is not an organic or commonly used term. Delete this embarrassing article!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.210.25.130 (talk) 16:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Experimental hip hop should probably have its own page
Hey,

I’m just here to say that I think experimental hip hop should probably have its own page by now because it makes the whole “alt rap” thing a lot more confusing to write about especially when there’s seemingly new subgenres of rap every week or so.

Just wanted to put in my two cents on this, but seriously we should make a new page for this. PapaBandit (talk) 18:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Alternative vs. experimental
I’ve always considered “alternative rap” as being its whole own genre, outside of the “experimental rap” label. For example, you have rappers like Kendrick Lamar or Kid Cudi with their rap type as being labeled as “alternative rap.” But that can be pretty confusing considering that much more clearly experimental type rap artists like Death Grips lack that similarity with the two rappers I mentioned earlier.

Basically, if we’re even going to have a page talking about alternative rap, I suggest that “experimental rap” should either not be mentioned in this page, or just have its own individual page. 2600:1010:B19F:D3D8:E9A9:A39E:62EE:FE3D (talk) 01:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

 * A proposal such as yours should be based on published sources and how they treat the topic. You did not mention any published sources, so there's no leverage in your suggestion. Nothing will change here unless you talk about how this or that musicologist treats the topic. Binksternet (talk) 03:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Hip Hop 50
— Assignment last updated by KING162 (talk) 16:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alternative hip hop


text:
Consensus democracy

Consensus democracy is the application of consensus decision-making and supermajority to the process of legislation in a democracy. It is characterized by a decision-making structure that involves and takes into account as broad a range of opinions as possible, as opposed to majoritarian democracy systems where minority opinions can potentially be ignored by vote-winning majorities. Constitutions typically require consensus or supermajority.

A consensus government is a national unity government with representation across the whole political spectrum. A concordance democracy is a type of consensus democracy where majority rule does not play a central role. Optional referendums and popular initiatives correspond to consensus democracy.

Examples
Consensus democracy is most closely embodied in certain countries such as Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Lebanon, Sweden, Iraq, and Belgium, where consensus is an important feature of political culture, particularly with a view to preventing the domination of one linguistic or cultural group in the political process. The term consociational state is used in political science to describe countries with such consensus based political systems. An example of such a system could be the Dutch Poldermodel. Many parties in Lebanon call for applying consensus democracy, especially at times of crisis.

Consensus government chiefly arises in non-partisan democracies and similar systems in which a majority of politicians are independent. Many former British territories with large indigenous populations use consensus government to fuse traditional tribal leadership with the Westminster system. Consensus government in Canada is used in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, as well as the autonomous Nunatsiavut region, and similar systems have arisen in the Pacific island nations of Fiji, Tuvalu and Vanuatu, as well as the ancient Tynwald of the Isle of Man.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Consensus democracy


text:
Gladys Knight & the Pips

Gladys Knight & the Pips were an American R&B, soul, and funk family music group from Atlanta, Georgia, that remained active on the music charts and performing circuit for over three decades starting from the early 1950s.

Starting out as simply The Pips in 1952, derived from a cousin's nickname, the founding members were Gladys Knight, brother Merald "Bubba" Knight, sister Brenda Knight and cousins Eleanor Guest and William Guest. After a couple of years performing in talent shows, the group signed with Brunswick Records in 1957, recording a couple of singles that failed to chart. Brenda Knight and Eleanor Guest eventually left the group and were replaced by another cousin, Edward Patten, and a non-relative, Langston George in 1959. This lineup produced the group's first hit single, "Every Beat of My Heart". After the single was released on three different labels, they changed their name to Gladys Knight & the Pips in 1961. Langston George left the same year and Gladys Knight left in 1962 to start a family with musician Jimmy Newman. Knight rejoined in 1964 and this lineup continued until the group's disbandment in 1989.

The group reached commercial success after signing with Motown Records in 1966. After a year and a half, the group recorded the first hit single version of "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" in 1967, which led to several hit singles for Motown's Soul Records label, including "Nitty Gritty", "Friendship Train", "If I Were Your Woman", "I Don't Want to Do Wrong" and the Grammy-winning "Neither One of Us (Wants to Be the First to Say Goodbye)", before leaving the label for Buddah Records in 1973. At Buddah, they recorded the hits "Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me", "I've Got to Use My Imagination", "I Feel a Song (In My Heart)" and their Grammy-winning and number-one hit single, "Midnight Train to Georgia". In 1974, they recorded the soundtrack to the successful film Claudine with producer Curtis Mayfield, which included the songs "On and On", "The Makings of You" and "Make Yours a Happy Home". Contractual difficulties with their labels forced the group to record side projects from 1977 until 1980 when they signed with Columbia Records. Later hits included "Landlord", "Save the Overtime (For Me)" and the Grammy-winning single "Love Overboard". In 1989, the group disbanded with the Pips retiring and Knight embarking on a successful solo career.

Gladys Knight & the Pips are multiple Grammy and American Music Award winners and are inductees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 1996 and 2001 respectively.

Early years (1952–1961)
Gladys Knight performed on Ted Mack's Original Amateur Hour in 1952 at the age of eight, winning first prize. On September 4, 1952, Gladys, Bubba, sister Brenda and their cousins William and Eleanor Guest began performing together during Bubba's tenth birthday party after a record player malfunctioned. Shortly afterwards, the quintet agreed to form a group under the insistence of Gladys' mother Elizabeth Knight. They settled on the name The Pips, inspired by the nickname of their cousin James "Pip" Woods. By 1955, the group began performing on the talent show circuit in their hometown of Atlanta, winning each talent show they entered. This success allowed them to get a record contract with Brunswick Records in 1957. At Brunswick, the group released two recordings that failed to chart. Despite this, the group was now opening for top recording acts such as Jackie Wilson and Sam Cooke.

By 1959, Brunswick dropped the group and both Brenda Knight and Eleanor Guest left the group to begin families. They were replaced by another cousin, Edward Patten, and a friend, Langston George. Patten and George were involved in another group before joining the Pips.

Early success (1961–1965)
In 1961, the Pips recorded the Johnny Otis-penned "Every Beat of My Heart". Because the group was without a record label, a local Atlanta label, Huntom Records, pushed the single and got a distribution deal with Vee-Jay Records to release the single. During this time, the group moved to New York where they auditioned for Bobby Robinson's Fury Records. Upon learning that "Every Beat of My Heart" was already becoming a hit and cutting the group out of profits, Robinson had the group re-record the song and re-release it on Fury Records. Both versions made the Billboard charts, with the Huntom/Vee-Jay version reaching number six on the Billboard Hot 100. Prior to the re-release on Fury Records, the group changed their name to Gladys Knight & the Pips. Later in 1961, the newly christened quintet released the single, "Letter Full of Tears", which became another top 40 hit in early 1962. After a string of single releases on Fury Records, Langston George left the group in 1962.

The group's success was halted by Gladys Knight's sudden departure in 1962 to start a family with husband Jimmy Newman, a musician. Knight gave birth to the couple's son James Gaston Newman III in August 1962. A daughter, Kenya Maria Newman, was born in November 1963. During this period, the Pips kept performing and recording to little fanfare, and eventually each Pip took odd jobs while Gladys Knight began performing solo with Newman, now her musical director. Eventually Gladys reunited with the Pips and signed with a local New York label, Maxx Records, that year. During that time, Newman served as the group's musical director. During this period, the group were mentored by Maurice King and Cholly "Pops" Atkins; their association with King going back to the group's early years traveling to Detroit. The group recorded a third top 40 single with Van McCoy's "Giving Up" in 1964. Other notable songs they released on Maxx include "Lovers Always Forgive", "(There Will Never Be) Another Love", "Either Way I Lose", "Go Away, Stay Away", "Maybe Maybe Baby", ""Stop and Get a Hold of Myself", "Who Knows? (I Just Can't Trust You)" and "If I Should Ever Fall in Love".

The group developed a reputation for exciting and polished live performances, that enabled them to work even without the benefit of bestselling records. Choreographer Atkins designed "fast-stepping" dance routines that became a signature of the Pips' stage presentation; Atkins later described his working and personal relationship with the group in his autobiography, Class Act: The Jazz Life of Choreographer Cholly Atkins: "The one thing that I was pleased about was a stipulation in my contract that allowed me to keep working with Gladys Knight & the Pips as personal clients even though I would be an employee of Motown Records. To tell the truth, Gordy wasn't too happy about it at first, but this is something that I would not compromise under any circumstances. By that time, Gladys and the guys were like my own children!"

Gladys Knight & the Pips join Motown Records (1966–1973)
By the end of 1965, Berry Gordy was scouting to get the group signed to his Motown label. Knight initially refused to sign due to her fears that the label would overlook them for the more popular artists on his roster, but she was outvoted by the Pips. They would sign with Motown in 1966, being assigned to Motown's Soul Records label, a label which featured acts who had more of an R&B flavor than a pop one. Their first Motown single, "Just Walk in My Shoes", was a hit in the UK, but the group was disappointed in Motown having The Andantes sing over the Pips' signature harmony in the song, resulting in the group demanding that the Andantes not be featured on anymore of the group's recordings. They also were one of the few Motown acts that did not regularly perform on the label's Motortown Revues, with an exception being a Christmas showcase at the Fox Theater in Detroit, recorded for the album, Motortown Revue Live. A second single, "Take Me in Your Arms and Love Me", also reached the charts in the UK.

Their third single, "Everybody Needs Love", became the group's first American charted single in two years, reaching number 39 on the Billboard Hot 100 and number three R&B after its release in 1967. On the A&E Network television program Biography, Knight stated that she and the Pips were regarded as a second-string act, and that "Diana (Ross) & the Supremes, The Temptations, and Marvin Gaye were given all the hits, while we took the leftovers." In Knight's autobiography, Between Each Line of Pain and Glory: My Life Story, she stated that Diana Ross had the group removed from being The Supremes' opening act on a 1968 tour for, according to Knight, being 'too good'. The group finally scored a career breakthrough with their fourth Motown single, "I Heard It Through the Grapevine", which reached number 2 on the Billboard Hot 100 and number one on the R&B chart. The group's recording became Motown's bestselling single ever to that point, selling over 2.5 million copies. Marvin Gaye's version of the song, released in 1968, outsold the group's version, selling four million copies and reaching number one on the Hot 100. While at Motown in 1968, Knight was the first person to suggest that Berry Gordy sign the up-and-coming group called The Jackson Five (though Bobby Taylor of the Vancouvers also had a role), after appearing with them on a concert held in Gary, Indiana, to help elect Mayor Richard Hatcher, despite the claim that Diana Ross discovered them.

Following the success of "Grapevine", the group worked frequently with Norman Whitfield. Whitfield produced them the hits, "The End of Our Road", "It Should've Been Me", "Friendship Train", "Nitty Gritty" and "You Need Love Like I Do (Don't You)". They also recorded Ashford & Simpson's "Didn't You Know (You'd Have To Cry Sometime)" in 1969. They scored their second million-selling Motown single with the ballad "If I Were Your Woman" in 1970. Another ballad, the self-composed "I Don't Want to Do Wrong", became another million-selling single. Both singles were featured on their first number one album, also titled If I Were Your Woman. In late 1971, they released a soulful version of Kris Kristofferson's "Help Me Make It Through the Night", which became an international hit. The group released the Jim Weatherly ballad, "Neither One of Us (Wants to Be the First to Say Goodbye)", in December 1972, the single would become their last single released while still with the label. As the single was charting, the group tried to negotiate a better contract with Motown. Negotiations fell through weeks later and, in February 1973, the group left Motown and signed with Buddah Records. "Neither One of Us" became their biggest selling single at Motown, reaching number two on the Billboard Hot 100 and winning the group a Grammy for Best Pop Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocals.

Taking the "Midnight Train" to Buddah Records (1973–1980)

Following the signing with Buddah Records, the label issued another Weatherly ballad, "Where Peaceful Waters Flow", released around the same time "Neither One of Us" and a Motown single, "Daddy Could Swear, I Declare", was charting. The song became a modest success as a result. The group reached its popular and critical peak soon afterwards, starting with the release of another Weatherly song, "Midnight Train to Georgia", in August 1973. The song eventually hit number one on both the Billboard Hot 100 and R&B singles charts, becoming their signature song.

They followed that single with the release of the million-selling album, Imagination, which released two more top ten singles, "I've Got to Use My Imagination" and "Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me". The release of Imagination sparked a consecutive series of million-selling albums for the label including the soundtrack to the movie, Claudine; I Feel a Song and 2nd Anniversary. In 1975, the group scored a mid-season variety series, The Gladys Knight & the Pips Show, that aired for four episodes on NBC. During this time, the group recorded more hit singles, including "I Feel a Song (In My Heart)", "Part-Time Love", "Love Finds Its Own Way" and the live recording, "The Way We Were/Try to Remember".

By 1977, the group ran into contract disputes with both Motown and Buddah Records. After asking to be released from their contract from Buddah, the label forced the band to record side projects while the dispute was settled. Between 1978 and 1980, Knight released two solo albums and the Pips released two side albums. In a segment for Richard Pryor's TV special, the Pips (minus Gladys) appeared on his show performing their backup verses for the songs "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" and "Midnight Train to Georgia"; during parts where Gladys would sing, the camera panned on a lone-standing microphone. The group still performed together during this period, which ended with the group signing with Columbia Records in 1980.

Later years and disbandment (1980–1989)
In 1980, having signed with Columbia, the group reunited with their old Motown collaborators Ashford & Simpson, recording and releasing the album, About Love, which included the charted singles "Taste of Bitter Love", "Bourgie, Bourgie" and "Landlord". They continued the collaboration with the duo on their 1981 follow-up, Touch, which included the single "I Will Fight", and a cover of "I Will Survive". Also in 1981, the group provided prominent backing vocals for Kenny Rogers on his remake of Bobby "Blue" Bland's "Share Your Love with Me". The group had appeared on Rogers' television show with the First Edition several times in the early 1970s, and Knight guested on Rogers' TV special, Kenny Rogers Classic Weekend in 1986, performing a duet of "Am I Too Late?", a song both singers had previously recorded. Three years later she also collaborated with Rogers on the US Billboard AC top ten single "If I Knew Then What I Know Now".

Following a year-long international tour, the group recorded their third Columbia album, Visions, in 1983. The leading single, "Save the Overtime (For Me)", gave the group their first number one R&B single in eight years. The video accompanying the song became among the earliest R&B videos to incorporate elements of hip-hop culture. The album also included the R&B hit "You're Number One (In My Book)". After Knight partook in solo projects, including a No. 1 Billboard Hot 100 and R&B hit collaboration on the song, "That's What Friends Are For", the group signed with MCA Records and released their final album All Our Love in 1987. The album was certified gold and included the hits "Lovin' On Next to Nothin'" and their Grammy-winning number-one single, "Love Overboard". In 1988 the band also won a Soul Train Music Award for Career Achievement. Gladys Knight & the Pips embarked on their final tour in 1988 and disbanded upon its conclusion, as Knight decided she wanted to pursue a solo career, ending a 37-year tenure.

Honors, solo careers and deaths
Following the group's amicable disbandment in 1989, Edward Patten and William Guest formed their own production company in Detroit, titled Guest and Patten Productions, later renamed the Crew Entertainment Company. Patten was diagnosed with diabetes, which led to amputations of his legs and being confined to a wheelchair. He died of complications from the disease on February 25, 2005, in Livonia, Michigan. William Guest continued to lead the company with members of Patten's family until his death from congestive heart failure in Detroit on December 24, 2015. Two years prior, Guest and his sister, Dame Dhyana Ziegler, PhD, released his autobiography, Midnight Train FROM Georgia: A Pip's Journey (Branden Books, Boston, MA, USA), about his life and career. In 2007, Bubba Knight and Guest, along with a third man, Neil Taffe (one of Gladys Knight's background singers), appeared in a commercial for Geico. On August 23, 1997, original Pips member Eleanor Guest died of heart failure. Langston George died on March 19, 2007, from congestive heart failure.

Bubba Knight still continues to oversee his sister's career, by being her tour manager and occasionally joining Gladys onstage during performances. Gladys Knight recorded the theme song for the James Bond film, Licence to Kill in 1989, which became a top ten single in the UK. Two years later, she released her 1991 album, Good Woman, which included the top five R&B hit, "Men", and Grammy-nominated duet version of "Superwoman", recorded with Dionne Warwick and Patti LaBelle. A 1994 album, Just for You, featured the hits "I Don't Wanna Know" and her cover of Boyz II Men's "End of the Road", and went gold. Knight still records and performs today. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, she sometimes leads the Saints Unified Voices choir.

The group was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1996, the Vocal Group Hall of Fame in 2001 and received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Rhythm & Blues Foundation in 1998. Gladys Knight & the Pips are ranked as the ninth most successful act in The Billboard Top 40 Book of R&B and Hip-Hop Hits (2005). They were also ranked No. 91 on VH1's Top 100 Artists of Rock n' Roll. In June 2006, Gladys Knight & the Pips were inducted into the Apollo Theater's Hall of Fame in New York City. In 2017 the group was inducted into Rhythm & Blues Hall of Fame.

Members

 * Gladys Knight (1952–1962, 1964–1989)
 * Merald "Bubba" Knight (1952–1989)
 * William Guest (1952–1989; died 2015)
 * Edward Patten (1959–1989; died 2005)
 * Brenda Knight (1952–1959)
 * Eleanor Guest (1952–1959; died 1997)
 * Langston George (1959–1962; died 2007)

Timeline

Top 20 singles
The following singles reached the Top 20 on either the United States Billboard Hot 100 Pop Singles Chart or the United Kingdom Pop Singles Chart.

Studio albums

 * Letter Full of Tears (1962)
 * Gladys Knight and the Pips (1965)
 * Everybody Needs Love (1967)
 * Feelin' Bluesy (1968)
 * Silk 'n' Soul (1968)
 * All In A Knight's Work (1968)
 * Nitty Gritty (1969)
 * All The Greatest Hits (1970)
 * If I Were Your Woman (1971)
 * Standing Ovation (1971)
 * Neither One of Us (1973)
 * Anthology (1973)
 * Imagination (1973)
 * Claudine (1974)
 * I Feel a Song (1974)
 * Presenting Gladys Knight and the Pips (1974)
 * Bless This House (1975)
 * 2nd Anniversary (1975)
 * Original Soundtrack for the Motion Picture Pipe Dreams (1976)
 * Still Together (1977)
 * The One and Only (1978)
 * About Love (1980)
 * Touch (1981)
 * That Special Time of Year (1982)
 * Visions (1983)
 * Life (1985)
 * All Our Love (1987)

Concert

 * 1977: Gladys Knight & the Pips Feat. Ray Charles: Live at the Greek Theatre in Los Angeles
 * 2021: Summer of Soul

Compilations

 * 1973:  Burt Sugarman's Midnight Special – Legendary Performances 1973
 * 2004: Kenny Rogers Rollin' Vol. 1
 * 2006: Flashbacks: Soul Sensation

American Music Awards

 * rowspan="4"|1975
 * rowspan="2"|Gladys Knight & the Pips
 * Favorite Pop/Rock Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * "Midnight Train to Georgia"
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Single
 * Won
 * Imagination
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Album
 * Won
 * 1976
 * Gladys Knight & the Pips
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * 1984
 * Gladys Knight & the Pips
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * 1989
 * Gladys Knight & the Pips
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * 1989
 * Gladys Knight & the Pips
 * Favorite Soul/R&B Band/Duo/Group
 * Won
 * Won

Grammy Awards

 * 1969
 * "Friendship Train"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Duo or Group
 * Nominated
 * 1971
 * "If I Were Your Woman"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Group
 * Nominated
 * 1972
 * "Help Me Make It Through the Night"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Nominated
 * rowspan="2"|1973
 * "Midnight Train to Georgia"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Won
 * "Neither One of Us (Wants to Be the First to Say Goodbye)"
 * Best Pop Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Won
 * 1974
 * "I Feel a Song (In My Heart)"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Nominated
 * 1975
 * "The Way We Were"/"Try to Remember"
 * Best Pop Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Nominated
 * 1977
 * "Baby Don't Change Your Mind"
 * Best R&B Vocal Performance by a Duo, Group or Chorus
 * Nominated
 * 1980
 * "About Love"
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal
 * Nominated
 * 1988
 * "Love Overboard"
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal
 * Won
 * 1980
 * "About Love"
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal
 * Nominated
 * 1988
 * "Love Overboard"
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal
 * Won
 * Best R&B Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal
 * Won

Gladys Knight has received an additional four Grammy Awards as a solo artist/collaborator.

Other awards and inductions

 * 1988 Gladys Knight & the Pips received the Heritage Award (Later renamed the Quincy Jones Award for Career Achievement) at the Soul Train Music Awards.
 * 1989 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the Georgia Music Hall of Fame.
 * 1996 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
 * 1998 Gladys Knight & the Pips received Lifetime Achievement Award from the Rhythm and Blues Foundation.
 * 1999 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the GRAMMY Hall of Fame ("Midnight Train to Georgia").
 * 2001 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the Vocal Group Hall of Fame.
 * 2006 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the Apollo Theater's Hall of Fame.
 * 2009 Gladys Knight & the Pips inducted into the Hit Parade Hall of Fame.
 * 2018 Gladys Knight & The Pips are again inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame ("I Heard It Through The Grapevine")

title: Gladys Knight & the Pips


text:
Pip (counting)

Pips are small but easily countable items, such as the dots on dominoes and dice, or the symbols on a playing card that denote its suit and value.

Playing cards

In playing cards, pips are small symbols on the front side of the cards that determine the suit of the card and its rank. For example, a standard 52-card deck consists of four suits of thirteen cards each: spades, hearts, clubs, and diamonds. Each suit contains three face cards – the jack, queen, and king. The remaining ten cards are called pip cards and are numbered from one to ten. (The "one" is almost always changed to "ace" and often is the highest card in many games, followed by the face cards.) Each pip card consists of an encoding in the top left-hand corner (and, because the card is also inverted upon itself, the lower right-hand corner) which tells the card-holder the value of the card. In Europe, it is more common to have corner indices on all four corners which lets left-handed players fan their cards more comfortably. The center of the card contains pips representing the suit. The number of pips corresponds with the number of the card, and the arrangement of the pips is generally the same from deck to deck.

Pip cards are also known as numerals or numeral cards.

In point-trick games where cards often score their value in pips (or equivalent if they are court cards e.g. a King may be worth 13), card points are sometimes referred to as pips.

Many French-suited packs contain a variation on the pip style for the Ace of Spades, often consisting of an especially large pip or even a representative image, along with information about the deck's manufacturer.

Historically German pips are generally different from the pips used in France and England, and the latter dates from at least the fourteenth century CE.

Dice

On dice, pips are small dots on each face of a common six-sided die. These pips are typically arranged in patterns denoting the numbers one through six. The sum of opposing faces traditionally adds up to seven.

Pips are commonly colored black on white or yellow dice, and white on dice of other colors, although colored pips on white/yellow dice are not uncommon; Asian dice often have an enlarged red single pip for the "one" face, while the dice for the 1964 commercial game Kismet feature black pips for 1 and 6, red pips for 2 and 5, and green pips for 3 and 4.

Dominoes

Dominoes use pips that are similar to dice. Each half of a domino tile can have anywhere from no pips all the way up to six or nine pips (depending on countries) arranged in the same manner to dice pips. Regardless of dominoes having up to six or up to nine pips on one half of the tile, the game is generally played by up to four players only, individually or in partners (pairs).

title: Pip (counting)