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The Quiet Earth

The Quiet Earth is a 1981 science fiction novel by New Zealand writer Craig Harrison. The novel was adapted into a 1985 New Zealand science fiction film of the same name directed by Geoff Murphy.

The 2013 Penguin edition includes an introduction by Bernard Beckett.

Alone
John Hobson, a geneticist involved in a project concerned with manipulating DNA, awakes in his hotel room in Thames, New Zealand, after a nightmare of falling from a great height. His wristwatch has stopped at 6:12. Upon getting up he finds the electricity off. It is quiet outside, with nobody in sight. Hobson checks the time in his car, finding the vehicle's clock is also frozen at 6:12. This perplexes him, as the vehicle's clock runs ahead of his wristwatch by several minutes.

The town's shops are locked and unattended, with no sign of people. Investigating a car sitting at an intersection, Hobson sees that the driver's seatbelt is still fastened. Telephones are dead and there is only static on the radio. All humans and animals have disappeared. No watch or clock shows anything later than 6:12.

Hobson concludes that some force has altered the clocks to show the same time and then stopped them, suggesting an intelligence behind the event, which Hobson dubs "the Effect".

A garden yields the first sign of life Hobson has found – a worm dug up from the soil. The garden is otherwise devoid of fauna. Hobson wonders if he has gone mad, but dismisses the idea.

During the night, Hobson hears sounds from outside approaching. Hobson wills the entity to leave, and the sounds retreat. Uncertainty as to whether the presence was there, or whether it may have been a stray animal spared from the Effect competes in his mind with speculations that the intruder could be a manifestation of the Effect. Hobson reassures himself that he can keep the entity at bay with mental effort.

The next morning Hobson procures weapons and supplies, and leaves for Auckland, finding the city deserted. Hobson seems to be the only human being remaining. He wonders what rendered him immune to the Effect. Hobson hurries to an apparent smoke signal coming from the North Shore, only to find suburban homes destroyed by the impact of a jetliner. The plane was empty when it crashed.

Hobson travels to the research unit, where he worked to reactivate dormant genes in humans and animals using high-frequency sound waves and radiation. The unit's head, Perrin, believed that awakening the dormant genes would lead to a quantum leap in evolution. Hobson finds Perrin in a radiation chamber, dead at the controls of the sound wave machine. The machine appears to have short-circuited, but there is no evidence indicating how Perrin died. Hobson decides he perished before the Effect – as dead animal tissue did not vanish. Hobson retrieves Perrin's papers, then begins journeying to Wellington, hoping to find survivors or clues as to what happened.

En route to Rotorua, Hobson sees a creature in his headlights. The monster is some kind of hybrid of dog and calf. Hobson drives off terror-stricken, unsure as to whether the apparition was really there.

At Rotorua, after realising everyone else is dead, Hobson almost commits suicide. When he comes across live fish in a stream, Hobson concludes that the Effect did not penetrate water. He is startled when an electronic howling noise booms out across Lake Taupō from the far side. Hobson reaches an area of bushland near Tūrangi, his path blocked by a truck. Back-tracking, he finds the alternate route also cut off. Trying to work around the stalled vehicle, he is confronted by another survivor with a rifle.

Api
The gunman is Apirana Maketu, a Māori and a lance-corporal in the New Zealand Army. "Api" woke up at his barracks in Waiouru to find the base deserted. He remained at his post for two days before setting out to find survivors.

A search of Gisborne and the East Coast yielded nothing, and a visit to the power station at Tokaanu led him to believe the electrical grid was knocked out by a massive surge. Api heard the same sound that Hobson heard – albeit earlier in the day and coming from the side of the lake that Hobson was standing on. Believing it to be a car, Api laid the roadblock to catch anyone coming south.

Api reveals his belief that something hostile is loose in the land. It is present only in certain places, and is stronger at night. The soldier is both relieved and worried to find that Hobson has experienced the same dread.

The two men seem to already know one other, sharing a flash of recognition upon first meeting. Neither can account for this, as they have never encountered each other before.

They speculate about the possibility of other survivors. Api posits that those underground in mines and underwater in submarines might have survived. Hobson recalls the worm, but notes a complete lack of rats, surmising that only animal life below a certain size has escaped the Effect underground. He concedes the possibility of submarine survivors.

They arrive at the nation's capital to find it devoid of life. Api and Hobson set up dwellings in a hotel and hunt for survivors. Hobson plans to run tests to see if he can determine the nature of the Effect and the reason why he and Api survived.

Api assists Hobson with procuring equipment for the scientist's studies. A radio transceiver is set up, and the duo transmit words and Morse code across the world. They receive no response. Hobson's investigations reveal no reason for their exemption from the Effect. The men face the prospect that they are alone.

Api goes skin-diving for shellfish – he pretends to drown as a joke, and Hobson reacts unconsciously by holding the other man's head underwater. There is a moment of hostility when Api breaks free, resolved when Hobson explains that his son, who was autistic, drowned in a bathtub, and Hobson felt Api was making fun of this. The death of the child led to the end of Hobson's marriage. Both men realise that Hobson is not in complete control of his actions.

Visiting the Beehive, Api speculates that they could be lab rats on some kind of duplicate Earth; it is they who disappeared. Hobson puts no stock in this theory.

Three weeks after the Effect, Hobson is left alone while Api goes to get a new car. Hobson goes into Api's bedroom and finds photographs of Api as a private during the Vietnam War, posing with the mutilated corpses of Viet Cong. Hobson believes that Api is a psychopath.

The End Is the Beginning
Hobson feels helpless to prevent his relationship with Api from deteriorating further and plans to kill Api with sleeping pills.

After searching for a boat to take them to the South Island, during which both men experience an attack of dread from the "force" hounding them, Api takes Hobson for a joyride in his Lotus Elite.

A woman runs into the car's path. She is taken to the hotel and made comfortable, but neither Api nor Hobson are medically trained. Unless she is less badly hurt than she seems, she will die.

The men bicker pointlessly. The woman's condition worsens, and there is nothing her fellow survivors can do for her. Hobson senses the unseen force again, emanating from the empty city. He speculates that the force may have always been a part of the land, and is claiming the Earth.

Api studies the Bible, and later wakes Hobson to tell him that he has solved the clock enigma. 6:12 relates to the Number of the Beast, 666 (6–12 = 6 and 6 plus 6) and to Revelation 6:12, with the Biblical chapter's talk of men hiding from the face of God. Hobson does not believe this, and holds a hidden gun on the deranged soldier. The woman dies, sending Api into hysterics.

After another argument, a full-scale battle with guns and grenades ensues. Hobson kills Api, with the soldier seeming to give up. The scientist is now alone.

Breaking open Perrin's box, Hobson realises his colleagues considered him unbalanced and kept him under surveillance. Perrin believed that Hobson's DNA was altered due to radiation, which caused his child's autism. Hobson believes the Effect was his doing. The project he worked on caused the unravelling of animal DNA; only those with the dormant gene pair were spared.

Flashbacks detail Hobson's last days at the research unit. Perrin seizes upon an accident with the sound wave/radiation machine in which Hobson set the sound modulator too high and was blasted out of his chair by an invisible energy wave. Perrin charges Hobson with negligence, as the sample slides for insects and animals in the machine are blank, while the ones for plants are normal. This event cements for Hobson his long-growing misgivings about the experiments, and what he believes are Perrin's motives for pursuing them.

In a later flashback, Hobson relates how he sabotaged the sound wave machine before going on leave to output a much higher level of infrasound than the controls would register. The idea was to put the machine out of action temporarily, ruining Perrin's chance to use Hobson's theories. Hobson took what he believed to be a fatal dose of sleeping pills on the night before the Effect.

As he reads Perrin's notes, Hobson realises that this sabotage almost certainly caused the Effect. His act always had a different purpose – to kill Perrin. Believing his boss insane and consumed with a desire to play God, Hobson subconsciously altered his own memory to hide this fact from himself.

This ability to edit his own recollections, and to take refuge in a kind of mental "super-reality", is purely automatic. Hobson finally accepts the guilt for letting his son drown. Allowing his child to die was his way of destroying himself, a kind of external suicide. The child's autism mirrored his father's own emptiness. Perhaps Hobson caused the Effect, or is dreaming all this in a barbiturate coma, or is in Hell or Purgatory. Perhaps the rest of humanity evolved, or is unchanged and wondering where Hobson and a handful of others have gone to. With the death of the entire race on his hands, Hobson jumps from the hotel. He gathers speed, then wakes up in his motel room in Thames. Recovering from the nightmare of falling, all he can remember of the dream he was ripped from, he notices that his wrist watch has stopped at 6:12.

title: The Quiet Earth


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User:Mr Raisin

Hullo! I am your ordinary John Q Public. I happen to have a passion for history (particularly that of the Byzantine Empire) and geography.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Mr Raisin


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Talk:2002 in American television

Untitled
I'm not a great TV watcher, and, given the internation nature of TV, it's unclear to me whether this refers to USA, Canadian, Uk or Aussie TV.

I'm reluctant to make a change when I'm not sure what the correction should be, but perhaps someone else is clearer?

jimfbleak

 * All tv. Add anything you want. (although the page is slightly focused on "popular" television shows..)

title: Talk:2002 in American television


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ATP synthase

ATP synthase is an enzyme that catalyzes the formation of the energy storage molecule adenosine triphosphate (ATP) using adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and inorganic phosphate (Pi). ATP synthase is a molecular machine. The overall reaction catalyzed by ATP synthase is:
 * ADP + Pi + 2H+out ATP + H2O + 2H+in

ATP synthase lies across a cellular membrane and forms an aperture that protons can cross from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration, imparting energy for the synthesis of ATP. This electrochemical gradient is generated by the electron transport chain and allows cells to store energy in ATP for later use. In prokaryotic cells ATP synthase lies across the plasma membrane, while in  eukaryotic cells it lies across the inner mitochondrial membrane. Organisms capable of photosynthesis also have ATP synthase across the thylakoid membrane, which in plants is located in the chloroplast and in cyanobacteria is located in the cytoplasm.

Eukaryotic ATP synthases are F-ATPases, running "in reverse" for an ATPase. This article deals mainly with this type. An F-ATPase consists of two main subunits, FO and F1, which has a rotational motor mechanism allowing for ATP production.

Nomenclature
The F1 fraction derives its name from the term "Fraction 1" and FO (written as a subscript letter "o", not "zero") derives its name from being the binding fraction for oligomycin, a type of naturally derived antibiotic that is able to inhibit the FO unit of ATP synthase. These functional regions consist of different protein subunits — refer to tables. This enzyme is used in synthesis of ATP through aerobic respiration.

Structure and function

Located within the thylakoid membrane and the inner mitochondrial membrane, ATP synthase consists of two regions FO and F1. FO causes rotation of F1 and is made of c-ring and subunits a, two b, F6. F1 is made of α, β, γ, and δ subunits. F1 has a water-soluble part that can hydrolyze ATP. FO on the other hand has mainly hydrophobic regions. FO F1 creates a pathway for protons movement across the membrane.

F1 region
The F1 portion of ATP synthase is hydrophilic and responsible for hydrolyzing ATP. The F1 unit protrudes into the mitochondrial matrix space. Subunits α and β make a hexamer with 6 binding sites. Three of them are catalytically inactive and they bind ADP.

Three other subunits catalyze the ATP synthesis. The other F1 subunits γ, δ, and ε are a part of a rotational motor mechanism (rotor/axle). The γ subunit allows β to go through conformational changes (i.e., closed, half open, and open states) that allow for ATP to be bound and released once synthesized. The F1 particle is large and can be seen in the transmission electron microscope by negative staining. These are particles of 9 nm diameter that pepper the inner mitochondrial membrane.

FO region

FO is a water insoluble protein with eight subunits and a transmembrane ring. The ring has a tetrameric shape with a helix-loop-helix protein that goes through conformational changes when protonated and deprotonated, pushing neighboring subunits to rotate, causing the spinning of FO which then also affects conformation of F1, resulting in switching of states of alpha and beta subunits. The FO region of ATP synthase is a proton pore that is embedded in the mitochondrial membrane. It consists of three main subunits, a, b, and c. Six c subunits make up the rotor ring, and subunit b makes up a stalk connecting to F1 OSCP that prevents the αβ hexamer from rotating. Subunit a connects b to the c ring. Humans have six additional subunits, d, e, f, g, F6, and 8 (or A6L). This part of the enzyme is located in the mitochondrial inner membrane and couples proton translocation to the rotation that causes ATP synthesis in the F1 region.

In eukaryotes, mitochondrial FO forms membrane-bending dimers. These dimers self-arrange into long rows at the end of the cristae, possibly the first step of cristae formation. An atomic model for the dimeric yeast FO region was determined by cryo-EM at an overall resolution of 3.6 Å.

Binding model
In the 1960s through the 1970s, Paul Boyer, a UCLA Professor, developed the binding change, or flip-flop, mechanism theory, which postulated that ATP synthesis is dependent on a conformational change in ATP synthase generated by rotation of the gamma subunit. The research group of John E. Walker, then at the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge, crystallized the F1 catalytic-domain of ATP synthase. The structure, at the time the largest asymmetric protein structure known, indicated that Boyer's rotary-catalysis model was, in essence, correct. For elucidating this, Boyer and Walker shared half of the 1997 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.

The crystal structure of the F1 showed alternating alpha and beta subunits (3 of each), arranged like segments of an orange around a rotating asymmetrical gamma subunit. According to the current model of ATP synthesis (known as the alternating catalytic model), the transmembrane potential created by (H+) proton cations supplied by the electron transport chain, drives the (H+) proton cations from the intermembrane space through the membrane via the FO region of ATP synthase. A portion of the FO (the ring of c-subunits) rotates as the protons pass through the membrane. The c-ring is tightly attached to the asymmetric central stalk (consisting primarily of the gamma subunit), causing it to rotate within the alpha3beta3 of F1 causing the 3 catalytic nucleotide binding sites to go through a series of conformational changes that lead to ATP synthesis. The major F1 subunits are prevented from rotating in sympathy with the central stalk rotor by a peripheral stalk that joins the alpha3beta3 to the non-rotating portion of FO. The structure of the intact ATP synthase is currently known at low-resolution from electron cryo-microscopy (cryo-EM) studies of the complex. The cryo-EM model of ATP synthase suggests that the peripheral stalk is a flexible structure that wraps around the complex as it joins F1 to FO. Under the right conditions, the enzyme reaction can also be carried out in reverse, with ATP hydrolysis driving proton pumping across the membrane.

The binding change mechanism involves the active site of a β subunit's cycling between three states. In the "loose" state, ADP and phosphate enter the active site; in the adjacent diagram, this is shown in pink. The enzyme then undergoes a change in shape and forces these molecules together, with the active site in the resulting "tight" state (shown in red) binding the newly produced ATP molecule with very high affinity. Finally, the active site cycles back to the open state (orange), releasing ATP and binding more ADP and phosphate, ready for the next cycle of ATP production.

Physiological role
Like other enzymes, the activity of F1FO ATP synthase is reversible. Large-enough quantities of ATP cause it to create a transmembrane proton gradient, this is used by fermenting bacteria that do not have an electron transport chain, but rather hydrolyze ATP to make a proton gradient, which they use to drive flagella and the transport of nutrients into the cell.

In respiring bacteria under physiological conditions, ATP synthase, in general, runs in the opposite direction, creating ATP while using the proton motive force created by the electron transport chain as a source of energy. The overall process of creating energy in this fashion is termed oxidative phosphorylation. The same process takes place in the mitochondria, where ATP synthase is located in the inner mitochondrial membrane and the F1-part projects into the mitochondrial matrix. By pumping proton cations into the matrix, the ATP-synthase converts ADP into ATP.

Evolution
The evolution of ATP synthase is thought to have been modular whereby two functionally independent subunits became associated and gained new functionality. This association appears to have occurred early in evolutionary history, because essentially the same structure and activity of ATP synthase enzymes are present in all kingdoms of life. The F-ATP synthase displays high functional and mechanistic similarity to the V-ATPase. However, whereas the F-ATP synthase generates ATP by utilising a proton gradient, the V-ATPase generates a proton gradient at the expense of ATP, generating pH values of as low as 1.

The F1 region also shows significant similarity to hexameric DNA helicases (especially the Rho factor), and the entire enzyme region shows some similarity to -powered T3SS or flagellar motor complexes. The α3β3 hexamer of the F1 region shows significant structural similarity to hexameric DNA helicases; both form a ring with 3-fold rotational symmetry with a central pore. Both have roles dependent on the relative rotation of a macromolecule within the pore; the DNA helicases use the helical shape of DNA to drive their motion along the DNA molecule and to detect supercoiling, whereas the α3β3 hexamer uses the conformational changes through the rotation of the γ subunit to drive an enzymatic reaction.

The motor of the FO particle shows great functional similarity to the  motors that drive flagella. Both feature a ring of many small alpha-helical proteins that rotate relative to nearby stationary proteins, using a potential gradient as an energy source. This link is tenuous, however, as the overall structure of flagellar motors is far more complex than that of the FO particle and the ring with about 30 rotating proteins is far larger than the 10, 11, or 14 helical proteins in the FO complex. More recent structural data do however show that the ring and the stalk are structurally similar to the F1 particle.

The modular evolution theory for the origin of ATP synthase suggests that two subunits with independent function, a DNA helicase with ATPase activity and a motor, were able to bind, and the rotation of the motor drove the ATPase activity of the helicase in reverse. This complex then evolved greater efficiency and eventually developed into today's intricate ATP synthases. Alternatively, the DNA helicase/ motor complex may have had pump activity with the ATPase activity of the helicase driving the  motor in reverse. This may have evolved to carry out the reverse reaction and act as an ATP synthase.

Inhibitors
A variety of natural and synthetic inhibitors of ATP synthase have been discovered. These have been used to probe the structure and mechanism of ATP synthase. Some may be of therapeutic use. There are several classes of ATP synthase inhibitors, including peptide inhibitors, polyphenolic phytochemicals, polyketides, organotin compounds, polyenic α-pyrone derivatives, cationic inhibitors, substrate analogs, amino acid modifiers, and other miscellaneous chemicals. Some of the most commonly used ATP synthase inhibitors are oligomycin and DCCD.

Bacteria
E. coli ATP synthase is the simplest known form of ATP synthase, with 8 different subunit types.

Bacterial F-ATPases can occasionally operate in reverse, turning them into an ATPase. Some bacteria have no F-ATPase, using an A/V-type ATPase bidirectionally.

Yeast
Yeast ATP synthase is one of the best-studied eukaryotic ATP synthases; and five F1, eight FO subunits, and seven associated proteins have been identified. Most of these proteins have homologues in other eukaryotes.

Plant
In plants, ATP synthase is also present in chloroplasts (CF1FO-ATP synthase). The enzyme is integrated into thylakoid membrane; the CF1-part sticks into stroma, where dark reactions of photosynthesis (also called the light-independent reactions or the Calvin cycle) and ATP synthesis take place. The overall structure and the catalytic mechanism of the chloroplast ATP synthase are almost the same as those of the bacterial enzyme. However, in chloroplasts, the proton motive force is generated not by respiratory electron transport chain but by primary photosynthetic proteins. The synthase has a 40-aa insert in the gamma-subunit to inhibit wasteful activity when dark.

Mammal
The ATP synthase isolated from bovine (Bos taurus) heart mitochondria is, in terms of biochemistry and structure, the best-characterized ATP synthase. Beef heart is used as a source for the enzyme because of the high concentration of mitochondria in cardiac muscle. Their genes have close homology to human ATP synthases.

Human genes that encode components of ATP synthases:
 * ATP5A1
 * ATP5B
 * ATP5C1, ATP5D, ATP5E, ATP5F1, ATP5G1, ATP5G2, ATP5G3, ATP5H, ATP5I, ATP5J, ATP5J2, ATP5L, ATP5O
 * MT-ATP6, MT-ATP8

Other eukaryotes
Eukaryotes belonging to some divergent lineages have very special organizations of the ATP synthase. A euglenozoa ATP synthase forms a dimer with a boomerang-shaped F1 head like other mitochondrial ATP synthases, but the FO subcomplex has many unique subunits. It uses cardiolipin. The inhibitory IF1 also binds differently, in a way shared with trypanosomatida.

Archaea
Archaea do not generally have an F-ATPase. Instead, they synthesize ATP using the A-ATPase/synthase, a rotary machine structurally similar to the V-ATPase but mainly functioning as an ATP synthase. Like the bacteria F-ATPase, it is believed to also function as an ATPase.

LUCA and earlier
F-ATPase gene linkage and gene order are widely conserved across ancient prokaryote lineages, implying that this system already existed at a date before the last universal common ancestor, the LUCA.

title: ATP synthase


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Jan Toorop

Johannes Theodorus "Jan" Toorop (20 December 1858 – 3 March 1928) was a Dutch painter who worked in various styles, including Symbolism, Art Nouveau, and Pointillism. His early work was influenced by the Amsterdam Impressionism movement.

Biography
Johannes Theodorus Toorop was born on 20 December 1858 in Purworejo on the island of Java in the Dutch East Indies (present-day Indonesia). His father was Christoffel Theodorus Toorop, a civil servant, and his mother was Maria Magdalena Cooke. He was the third of five children and lived on the island of Bangka near Sumatra until he was nine years old. He was then sent to school in Batavia on Java.

In 1869 he left Indonesia for the Netherlands, where he studied in Delft and Amsterdam. In 1880 he became a student at the Rijksakademie in Amsterdam. He met the Belgian painter William Degouve de Nuncques in 1883 and the two shared a studio for a time and developed a strong friendship. From 1882 to 1886 he lived in Brussels where he joined the artist association L'Essor, which had as its original aim to rebel against the conservative tendencies of the art institutions and circles in Brussels. Later he joined in Brussels Les XX (Les Vingts), a group of artists centred on James Ensor. Toorop worked in various styles during these years, such as Realism, Impressionism Neo-Impressionism and Post-Impressionism.

After his marriage to Annie Hall, a British woman, in 1886, Toorop alternated his time between The Hague, England and Brussels, and after 1890 also the Dutch seaside town of Katwijk aan Zee. During this period he developed his unique Symbolist style, with dynamic, unpredictable lines based on Javanese motifs, highly stylised willowy figures, and curvilinear designs.

In the late 19th century (in 1897) Toorop lived for 20 years in a small house on the market in the seaside town Domburg, Walcheren, Zeeland. He worked with a group of fellow artists, including Marinus Zwart and Piet Mondrian. There was no joint endeavor or common style among them. Each followed his individual personality, but they sought their inspiration in "the Zeeland Light", in the dunes, forests, beaches and the characteristic Zeeland population. Toorop was the center of this group.

His 1900 novel portrait of his friend Marie Jeanette de Lange was made whilst she was not wearing fashionable (restrictive) clothing and it was in the style of Pointillism.

Thereafter he turned to Art Nouveau styles, in which a similar play of lines is used for decorative purposes, without any apparent symbolic meaning. In 1905, he converted to Catholicism and began producing religious works. He also created book illustrations, posters, and stained glass designs.

Throughout his life Toorop also produced portraits, in sketch format and as paintings, which range in style from highly realistic to impressionistic.

Toorop died on 3 March 1928 in The Hague. His daughter Charley Toorop (1891–1955) was also a painter, as was his grandson Edgar Fernhout.

Public collections
Among the public collections holding works by Jan Toorop are:
 * Museum de Fundatie, Zwolle, Netherlands
 * Kröller-Müller Museum

title: Jan Toorop


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1934 British Empire Games

The 1934 British Empire Games was the second edition of what is now known as the Commonwealth Games, held in England, from 4–11 August 1934. The host city was London, with the main venue at Wembley Park, although the track cycling events were in Manchester. Seventeen national teams took part, including the Irish Free State (the only Games in which they participated, although an all-Ireland team competed at the 1930 Games).

The 1934 Games had been originally awarded to Johannesburg, South Africa, but the change of venue to London was made due to concerns regarding the treatment of black and Asian athletes by South African officials and fans.

Six sports were featured in the Games: athletics in White City Stadium; boxing, wrestling, and aquatics (swimming and diving) in the Empire Pool and Arena, Wembley; cycling in Fallowfield Stadium, Manchester; and lawn bowls at Paddington and Temple. Events for women athletes included a debut in athletics; the previous games had women's events only in swimming and diving.

Participating teams
(Teams participating for the first time in bold).

 * 🇧🇲 Bermuda
 * 🇭🇰 Hong Kong
 * 🇮🇪 Irish Free State*
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🇭🇰 Hong Kong
 * 🇮🇪 Irish Free State*
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🇮🇪 Irish Free State*
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales
 * 🏴 Wales

* The affiliation of Irish athletes at these games is unclear, see Ireland at the British Empire Games § 1934 games

Lawn bowls
All events were for men only.

Wrestling
All events were for men only.

title: 1934 British Empire Games


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User:Narrowhouse

Just like the idea of an open source of info that grows in realtime. I created my account the day of the Columbia Shuttle accident(I had nothing to do with those articles though:) ), and I just thought it was very interesting to watch the process of documenting an event like that. I've added very little to Wikipedia, though I did do the first (very short) article on Jack London long before I signed up for an account. So far I have added links to articles, checked spellings, etc.

title: User:Narrowhouse


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Talk:Liverpool F.C./Archive 1

Initial message
Boring football team not NPOV, unless written by a LFC supporter. description of player as Bignose unwarranted, even if true

jimfbleak — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.50.14 (talk) 18:00, 2 February 2003 (UTC)

Rafa
We're missing a picture of Rafa! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sars~enwiki (talk • contribs) 16:30, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

How's that? Found the picture on the Rafael Benitez page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by James Rawlinson (talk • contribs) 17:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Cup Final
Is a whole section dedicated to the AC Milan/Liverpool Champions League Final really necessary, considering it is only one of five European Cup finals Liverpool have won in the past? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.206.29 (talk) 18:02, 14 June 2005 (UTC)

 * Well perhaps it could be added to a new page, the 2005 Champions League Final? Obviously, as wikipedia did not exist during any of the previous wins, this one is going to be written about more. -sars 19:08, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I was thinking about moving the section to a new page entirely along with further details regarding 'Pool's other European Cup wins. This article is already too long by Wikipedia standards anyway.
 * - Have gone and made a new article like I said but it needs serious help with the details of the other European Cup wins. I didn't get to experience them firsthand so my lack of knowledge regarding the finals prior to 1985 is somewhat deplorable. :P - shikinluv

It is especially sweet, because the trophy that Liverpool FC won is the real thing. We get to keep it. The rest didn't. Liverpool lives forever! --chapter1 08:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Inaccuracies in Joe Fagan/Kenny Dalglish Eras
Just noticed a few inaccuracies in the text but didn't want to change them as i'm new to all of this:

 * Alan Hansen wasn't made captain until Kenny Dalglish took charge. Graeme Souness was captain for 1983/84, and i'm pretty sure Phil Neal was captain the following season
 * The text implies Ray Houghton was at the club in the 1985/86 season. He didn't join the club until 1987
 * John Barnes and John Aldridge are mentioned as replacing Ian Rush, but what about including Peter Beardsley? David f1976 01:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually the part about John Aldridge replacing Ian Rush was sort of true, not too sure about John Barnes replacing Rushie though. Of course, we were all glad that Rushie couldn't stand his stint in Italy at Juventus, and swiftly came back the following season, an Anfield legend always. --chapter1 08:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Without wishing to be pedantic, the article states we (Liverpool) lost the 1989 title on "goal difference". I'm pretty sure this is slightly inaccurate. Arsenal won on the night 2-0, equalling both our points total AND our goal difference. The way they were crowned champions was even more unique in that the two teams could only be separated therefore, by virtue of the fact that they had scored six more goals than Liverpool. With attacking play being rewarded in such scenarios, the fact they'd also conceded six more goals than Liverpool was therefore inconsequential. :( Dalglynch-72 04:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Souness\Houllier Era Inaccuracies
I have noticed under the Graeme Souness years it is mentioned that he was sacked. He in fact resigned. To this day Liverpool FC have not sacked a manager.JamieStapleton 13:32, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I have edited references to both Souness and Houllier being 'sacked'. Souness resigned and Houllier and Liverpool parted by mutual consent. JamieStapleton 14:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. Well, actually you know the story: when it means a person leaves on mutual consent, you'll really have to look on the other side of the story. --chapter1 08:46, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Stars
Do we really think Harry Kewell can be regarded as a star? He's limped off in two of our important matches, and been out for injury for most games. He was only a really notable player at the start of his debut season. - sars 15:23, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

I would rate others above him. Most Liverpool fans, including myself, have found him a disappointment more than a star. Soul Embrace 15:50, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

True he has been disappointing, and I would rate others above him too. but if we have Nick Barmby we must keep Kewell (also Jason McAteer? - sure he was a fixture in the team but I'm not sure many would call him a star). In fact I could argue that we should get rid of Barmby and keep Kewell - he was (at the least) a star when he signed for us - like Anelka - who only scored 4 goals in 20 for us if I remember right. I say we just leave him there. Friedel is there but did nothing for us. From the make up of the list, it seems to me that if they were a star, regardless of how they played for us, they should be there. Cursive 16:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

That seems a fair compromise. I agree. Soul Embrace 18:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

He has improved. Albeit the reaction save from Shay Given, Kewell should've put his name onto the scoresheet against Newcastle last night. He tormented the Newcastle defence on the left, and totally thrived on the left flank. If not for his second cross which Crouch got his head to, Liverpool would not be 2-0 up. Great work Kewell! --chapter1 08:48, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

70s logo
Do we really need this in the article? It doesn't seem to fit (it really looks out of place) and is pretty poor quality too. Whoever added it didn't even give it a caption, I don't think it fits, but will defer to consensus. Cursive 23:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with you that it looks out of place where it currently is, is poor quality, and has no caption, however I'd say that a place for a better quality version could probably be found in the article. I'm not sure where though.

 * Was it just the club logo in the 1970s only, or was it the logo before then? KeithD (talk) 08:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I have done some research on this and, from what I have found, the 'old' logo appears to have been in existence long before the 70's. There is a disappointing lack of clear pictures anywhere and I haven't found anything clearer. I have put out a couple of feelers and will post back here when I hear something. (Picked up some images of some classic programmes but I don't think they are free of copyright - fascinating stuff!) Soul Embrace 18:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think it was the club logo in the 70s. This is more the standard logo beloved of all fans of the era http://www.liverweb.org.uk/stdbadg.jpg

 * My research drew a blank on any dates or images. Is the image posted above copyright free? Soul Embrace 18:23, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

 * All club images prior to the current badge are copyright free

The 70s logo showed a Liverbird with the words L.F.C. right below. It signified the soaring high of the legendary Liverbird. The 80s logo showed the Liverbird enclosed in a badge, with the words Liverpool Football Club right below. The logo switched to a fuller version in 1990, after the Hillsbrough disaster, incorporating the Hillsbrough flames and the Shankly Gates, with the words "You'll Never Walk Alone". Since then, the Liverpool logo has not changed, only decreased in size, but in full colour.

The present logo shows the 5 European Cups stars right above the Liverpool badge. Wonder if Reebok are going to incorporate it into future designs (hopefully, we'd have won our 6th European Cup!) --chapter1 08:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Early history
I added a whole section on the club's history from 1892-1950 yesterday, it took me 4 hours to write and it has been removed today. I am not impressed.

I also amended the club's record defeat. Official sources always quote the 9-1 defeat at Birmingham City in Division 2 on 11th December 1954. Also deleted. Can anybody explain? (Unsigned comment by User:212.32.106.70)

 * Your excellent contribution to the article hasn't been deleted. It's still there. Perhaps your browser has cached the old page and you're not seeing the most recent version? KeithD (talk) 09:23, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Whoops! You are right - exits red-faced.

Suitably encouraged I will continue from 1950-59. Cheers. BTW how does one create a user name? (Unsigned comment by User:212.32.106.70)

 * I've answered on your talk page, along with the traditional welcome message. In short though, the register link should be visible in the top right corner of every page here. KeithD (talk) 12:09, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

European Cup 2004/5
One third of the article is on the 2004/5 season, detailing Liverpool's entire CL campaign, and the 2000/1 treble-winning season is worth 1 sentence. Some balace eh? Mandel 19:05, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

History of Liverpool F.C.
I have gone ahead and created an article at History of Liverpool Football Club. I have just yanked the entire existing history section from this article and put it there (like they have at History of Arsenal F.C.). The Arsenal F.C. article is a featured article, and I think that this article has the potential to be as well (but only if we get rid of many of the details that form the main article). I will stick a link to the history article in the apppropriate section of the LFC article.Oktom 13:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't find the new article?? Jamie 11:28, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I lied, i have added the link to the history of liverpool f.c. article to the 'see also' section Jamie 11:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The introduction describes how the club was formed, why does this need to be repeated in a 'history' section that is supposed to have been moved? The comments in the history section are already covered in the 'history of liverpool f.c.' article so I think this history section should be deleted Jamie 11:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I disagree. The history section as it stands is different to the previous version. As it stands, it is supposed to be a summary of the larger article, and so I guess some duplication is okay. I think that a history section is a valuable, factual contribution to an article such as this. And a brief mention of the club's founder belongs in such a section.Oktom 17:23, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The best history is to get it from the official website at www.liverpoolfc.tv We as Reds will stand together forever, and all Liverpool fans are together as one. --chapter1 08:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

History section and separate article
It might be an idea to put some comments in the history section advising people to add history stuff to History of Liverpool F.C. instead of this article. We had the same problem when the history was split out for Manchester United, and ended up with two history articles of about the same length, which was a pain in the arse to fix. I think the Arsenal article had the same problem as well before the comments were added. CTOAGN (talk) 01:50, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Huh? The Liverpool history was done by a neutral? How could a neutral know more about the Champions of Europe, when compared to a die-hard Liverpool supporter doing it? --chapter1 08:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

 * 1) I've never been accused of being 'neutral' with regard to Liverpool before.
 * 2) I didn't and haven't claimed to write the Liverpool history.
 * 3) That depends on which "die-hard Liverpool supporter" you're talking about (wry smile).
 * [[Image:Yemen flag large.png|24px]] CTOAGN (talk) 10:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is Liverpool history so little compared w e rest?
I don't understand, Liverpool has an even more historical history, so why is the section being minimised? True Redders will not truly understand the significant events of the issues, and will have wrong conclusions on the history of the club. --chapter1 08:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The history section has been moved to its own page - History of Liverpool FC. The Article was becoming too big and needed to be cleaned up. Hope this has helped Jamie 13:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Jamie! That was wonderful work! Ahhhh! Lovely Reds! --chapter1 21:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Reserve Squad
It's strange that the reserve squad section is duplicated and above the first team. I'm thinking of:

a) deleting the first list of reserve players b) copying the data about the Racecourse Ground to the lower section c) removing any players from it that are in the first team table d) Making all the players names links, even though most won't be on there.

Any thoughts?

Well there is some errors on that reserve list anyway. Paul Barratt (correct sp) isn't a reserve, he plays with the Under 18s, I can verify this because I know him personally. One correct list of reserve players is desirable, and I agree with the rest of your proposals. I just felt the need to highlight factual accuracy. --Thehumph 22:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I liked the old format for History Better
This new one seems rushed and is far less informative. An outsider would think the club has a modest history.

Does anyone have the new song sung at Anfield?
Does anyone know about the new song that's being sung at Anfield, where we'll show the "5 Cups" sign to the English clubs (especially Chelsea)? If yes could there be a section on famous songs sung by the Kop? --chapter1 21:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

We won it in gay pareeeee, we won it at wemberleee, in 77 and 84 it was Rome, we've won it 5 times (x2), In Istanbul, we won it 5 times. (second verse - change the last line to 'In Athens, Greece, we'll win it six times!' :) Dalglynch-72 16:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Liverpool FC Songs
A whole section on Liverpool FC songs is a good idea,only it would make the page even longer, and some have already raised objections to that. The thing is, there are loads of liverpool songs floating around everywhere, ranging from the hilarious to the downright disrespectful, maybe even offensive. Some would probably be marked as vandalism. So there really isn't any point including some of the songs and leaving out the rest. Should i add a link to this website i discovered which has only liverpool songs? Its great fun. I would like to know of other club songs too, if anybody knows, its damn interesting. No, i haven't heard the latest, but i just downladed "anfield rap", its got to be the funniest i've head, and at times ironical. Kinda crazy 09:30, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguating "Ian McCulloch"
In the section "Club Culture" the name "Ian McCulloch" appears. There is insufficient information included to allow disambiguation among the several persons by that name; could a knowledgable person please edit the wikilink to point to the correct person, a listing of options being found at Ian McCulloch - or add another to this listing if needed. Thank you. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 18:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

 * A simple solution surely would be to label Mr McCulloch along the lines of ... (80's band) Echo and the Bunnymen's front man, Ian McCulloch. Dalglynch-72 04:17, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Running Season Commentary
Is it really necessary to have a running season commentary. I have deleted the text on liverpools 10 wins in a row, etc. This has happened before and as said before why not wait til the season ends and then write a summary. Remember this is a encyclopedia, not a way to catch up on their progress. Only significant events shoudl be included. Jamie 16:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

BOT making link edits?
I think a BOT is making excessive large amounts of link editing. Its making the article look messy. In the first paragraph alone almost every other word is being made a link. I'm going to remove the inappropriate ones. Jamie 11:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

World club Championship - Reds in Japan
Thsi should be incorporated into the Rafael Benitez article IMO. A sentence should do.

Sounds good. I'll try and make the changes today. Have you considered registering with Wikipedia? It makes editing and tracability alot easier. Jamie 08:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Squad List
I'm proposing changing the player classification in the squad list. Currently Strikers are classified as FW (Forward), i think this is very old-fashioned. I think ST (Striker) looks better. Ideas? Jamie 14:36, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Theres nothing wrong with FW, but no objections to ST either. Also, i was thinking the page can be made to look a bit better by adding some pictures.i cant understand how im supposed to get copyright free pics, ive failed in my attempts so far, i guess im not clear about the procedure.anyway,ill keep trying Kinda crazy 15:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Pretty much all sports pictures are problematical from a copyright point of view - basically, unless you took the photo yourself, or the photographer's been dead for more than 70 years (it sometimes only feels like more than 70 years since Crouch scored! :) ) then it's very difficult to satisfy Wikipedia's copyright licensing requirements. There are very few publications, professional photographers, or sites which will license their work under the GFDL or CC. If you look at FA Cup, the hands holding the cup are those of the photographers' little kids, which is how we know the photo's legit! Even club logos are a bit difficult - I know the Premier League has asserted copyright on them and forced some sites to take them down - it's only because our servers are in the US and we're able to assert fair use for how we use them that we've really got away with them. -- Arwel (talk) 15:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I just think Striker is more commonly used when referring to a Striker!! Forward is more often used specifically for Centre-Forward which defines a specific role on the pitch, whereas Striker is more generic. Jamie 16:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm..yea,u have a point,change it. great to see fowler back though,hope he keeps scoring whether he's a ST or a FW,hehe. Kinda crazy

 * Forward is far more generic than striker. Kenny Dalglish would be classified as a forward and Ian Rush as a striker for instance. Striker has a narrower definition and suggests a player who is in the team just to score goals, whereas a forward has far more to his game. Rushian77 11:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree. The Wikipedia article for 'Forward' redirects to Striker. Quote - "Strikers, also known as centre forwards, forwards, and attackers, are the players on a team in football (soccer) in the row nearest to the opposing team's goal, who are therefore principally responsible for scoring goals". So in my opinion and by implication wikipedias is that Striker is more generic. Jamie 12:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * That is such a poor Wikipedia article though. Forward has always had a more general meaning than striker. Forward can refer to attackign wingers for instance - Chelsea play with three forwards, Drogba, Robben and Duff yet only Drogba would be referred to as a striker. All three could be referred to as forwards. Rushian77 19:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Ok, the fact that an attacking midfeilder (i.e. Robben, Duff) can be classed as a forward, then surely Striker should be used to classify the distinction between a attcking player who isn't a midfielder. I.e. A Striker. Remember the whole point of this part of the discussion is what term to classify our strikers in the squad list as - FW or ST. If we use FW, there could be confusion where they play (not their role).Jamie 15:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The majority of club pages use FW. Some pages use CF. For the sake of uniformity I think FW should be used, despite CF being more accurate. Stu 15:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I totally disagree. Look at a random selection of premiership club official websites and take a look at their squad list, you'll find they use the term 'ST' for striker. I checked Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham & Newcastle - all used Striker. I must add these we're random selections, i'd be pretty sure that the majority if not all clubs used the term striker. I think this should be reflected in the wikipedia article.Jamie 09:08, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Jamie, I'm talking about the club's pages on Wikipedia, not external pages. There needs to be continuity with other Wikipedia club articles. You may have a point about Forward not being accurate enough, but if we change it here then all football club pages will have to be changed. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football might be a good place to discuss it. Stu 09:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

 * When we consider the idiomatic expression, 'star striker' (no such 'star forward' exists), we should accept that players employed with goal scoring their primary job description to be strikers. As stated, forwards is more generic including wingers and strikers.  It's not such an important issue though methinks.  Dalglynch-72 04:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Deleting
I've put the latest results on the page. What's wrong with it? Someone keeps on deleting it.

--Number 8 07:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Your edits are getting replaced because this is an encyclopedia - a knowledge base. Not a results service. The page isn't a fans website, where you can get all the latest news. Its purpose is to inform someone who Liverpool FC are and include some key historical background information and stats about the club. Although your additions have good intentions, keeping an up to date service is inefficient and messy, thats why we only include big events. Hope this helps Jamie 09:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Why has no Liverpool fan corrected the error in the current squad list? Reina has replaced Dudek as goalie yet this has yet to be noted on the main wiki page! As a neutral i am sure that many wish to remember Dudek's brilliant contribution in last years CL final but lets get with reality..Reina is doing a brilliant job. Finally I would just like to say if the reuslt of Reyna stroking your cheek leads to loss of lower limb function, he must be a wow with the ladies!!

 * I think your getting confused, Dudek maintained the #1 shirt at te beginning of the season, Reina was assigned #25. Things will most probably change next season Jamie 13:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You'll Never Walk Alone and other clubs
Ok I've rewritten the YNWA section again to reflect both Ajax and Milan singing it. There really is no debate on who sung it first - no serious Celtic historian has ever claimed their fans sang the song, there's no documentary evidence of Celtic supporters singing it in the 60s (TV, newspaper, books, other media) whereas tons of such evidence exists regarding Liverpool FC and the Kop. This spurious nonsense has only arisen in the last ten years since it became more popular at Celtic and is parrotted by Mancs and Evertonians wanting to "have a dig" at Liverpool. Rushian77 11:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

What about the thousand of Celtic fans who claim Celtic sang it first-are they all liars? or the show on Radio Ulster last year who after careful research concluded that Celtic FC did indeed sing that song first.Celtic fans at that particular time(1950s)where singing songs from other musicals not just from Carousel but also The Pirates of Penzance-It was a very musical time in the clubs history.The Celtic supporters are far too proud a bunch to "steal" a song from another club,and i find it insulting and it also makes me view the fans of Liverpool with less regard.How many Liverpudlians can say they know for a fact that Celtic didnt sing that song first?.The fans of Liverpool have not proven they where the first to sing that song they just claim to be without ANYTHING to back there claims up-Its as arrogant as it is pathetic. A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Lenin (1870 - 1924)
 * Due to daily vandalism regarding this I have semi-protected the article. NSL E (T+C) 09:42, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Time to take the semi-protection off? It's supposed only to be a very short temporary measure, rather than lasting for five days. Also, this issue seems to be more an edit/revert war, than pure vandalism. KeithD 09:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've requested unprotection for this page. Thought I should let you know.KeithD 09:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * There is evidence regarding Celtic and YNWA pre-1960; please stop obliterating anything which doesn't happen to happily agree with your views. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.11.175.193 (talk • contribs).

 * Please note that Wikipedia is all about verifiability. If you have evidence that Celtic fans sang YNWA before Liverpool fans did that, please put it forward here to dispute that assertion.  If that piece of evidence turns out to be reliable, we'll be more than happy to put it up on the article.  Otherwise, as of this moment the source cited on the article, ie this, continues to stand and we are obligued to follow this source and say Liverpool fans sang it first.  --Pkchan 03:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

 * So Liverpool may not have been the first club to sing YNWA? Well here's an interesting notion... who cares? It doesn't detract from the fact it's become the club's anthem and motto, and is not the anthem of any other club. Why is this so important to User 58.84.73.78?

 * I think I preferred it when the page was just being vandalised by smug Man Utd fans who've conveniently forgotten they were knocked out of the Champions League this season before Liverpool. But anyway. --Stevefarrell 13:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Again I request that the Neutrality of the article box stays. You are being unfair,pigheaded and damned right arrogant Fans of Celtic sang that song first,you might not like that but its the truth.

 * Then give a source for it... – Elisson • Talk 14:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no reliable source available that proves liverpool sang the song first,its pure heresay-the newspaper article is a pure joke. —This unsigned comment was added by 58.84.68.200 (talk • contribs).

 * Then give us a reliable source that the newspaper article is pure joke... – Elisson • Talk 13:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Elisson you fire back blanks after blanks-The source of your information is only heresay-if you read the article you'll know its as much-pure heresay,I have sought proof that Celtic sang that song first and am happy with that evidence however i wouldnt insult the wikipedia organisation with putting anything on the pages that could not be verifiable 110% unlike the fans of Liverpool who are happy to abuse the wikipedia network by claiming something they cannot prove. Ive tried to do the right thing by rather than contradicting the lies on YNWA section,ive just put up a {npov} box urging further debates,however some of your guys are that petty they even take that box away,something i admit has left me gobsmacked-its only a song.Im personally fed up with the whole debate —This unsigned comment was added by 58.84.68.200 (talk • contribs).

 * Why don't you provide the "evidence" you say you have found? The NPOV box has nothing to do in the section, to me as an outsider, it represents a neutral point of view, and is backed up by a source. – Elisson • Talk 14:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Because that evidence,like that of The Guardian is pure heresay-The biggest reason why im so hot on this issue isnt because of being a Celtic fan,they are simply a football team,Its Wikipedia-this organisation is supposedly one of the most respected,I love it-as i feel it holds high vale for education of the masses. and complete rubbish like this debate needs to be challenged for the good of wikipedia —This unsigned comment was added by 58.84.71.170 (talk • contribs).

 * Please check Reliable sources for what qualifies as a reliable source on Wikipedia. The Guardian article, like it or not, falls into the reputable media category and thus qualifies as a reliable source.  If you don't like it, feel free to challenge this at Reliable sources or its talk page.  Before that, there is no POV dispute and not even factual dispute over this issue.
 * And, by the way, please format your comments properly in wikitext. See Help:Editing if you'd like to learn more about the syntax here.  And I'd strongly recommend you to sign up for an account, and sign your name for your comments.  Like you, we're all here because we love and respect Wikipedia as a respectable knowledge source.  Your positive contribution here will be most appreciated here.   --Pkchan 11:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the truth of the matter is that you don't agree with the stance the Guardian newspaper have taken. Sour grapes will get you no where my friend.Jamie 15:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Whilst I'll always assume LFC to be the first team to have adopted the YNWA chant (like most LFC fans with most Celtic fans probably disagreeing), I think reviewers on this talk page are putting too much emphasis needlessly on the importance of who sang it first. I presume no-one submitting is a minor.  Suffice to say, the easiest way round it has to be in how you word the English.  Why not...  It was on the 1960's Kop that it is widely believed that LFC fans were the first to take the YNWA song to their hearts, adopting as an anthem.  We have to bear in mind that most people around the World will never have heard about Glasgow Celtic, let alone their glory years, except in reference to them being the club that sold Liverpool King Kenny Dalglish.  Dalglynch-72 04:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Most people around the world haven't heard of Celtic? Are you joking? They have a supporters club in every country where football is played! I hate to admit this, but they were singing it before we were. We got it from Gerry and The Pacemakers in 1963. We started singing it along with Beatles songs on The Kop when it got to number 1. Vera, Chuck & Dave 20:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Do you have verification that challenges that already used in the article? Alias Flood 21:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the problem, an issue like this cannot be verified 100%. One has to ask what is the likelyhood of such a claim. Was this song commonly known in Liverpool before it reached number one on the charts? I would say no. It's not Maggie May is it? Did the Celtic fans know it before it became a "pop hit", I would say yes, they had, and still have more songs than a river rat has fleas! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Well unfortunately for yourself there has been evidence for Liverpool singing the song first. Whereas every dimwit coming on here claiming Celtic sung it first either have no evidence or refute the source quoted here. So as it stands Liverpool sung it first - in any wikipedia article not just here, because there is evidence to back it up. Jamie 15:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey lad who are you calling a dimwit? Not me i hope - I was stood on The Kop when you were still a hop in your old fella's beer. Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * You have been kindly asked to provide verifiable standards of evidence. Now, can you do that? The same goes for anyone else making similar claims: Provide compelling evidence. All I see here from the likes of yourself is empty rhetoric, tantamount to wishful thinking. 82.42.133.198 19:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Kindly elaborate on the remark "the likes of yourself". Vera, Chuck & Dave 22:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * It is self-explanatory. By "the likes of yourself" I am of course referring to contributors who casually circumvent/disregard verifiable standards of evidence and instead forcefully put forward their own personal opinion as though it carried substantial weight. In your case, you begin by asserting that "an issue like this" cannot be "verified 100%" as though the there exists some ambiguity, an indeterminable answer, or some mystery as to exactly which set of supporters began singing the song at a specific time and date. In fact no such ambiguity exists. Liverpool supporters can point to copious amounts of evidence in support of their position. On the other hand, opponents idly speculate and dance around their own unsupported assertions, then when challenged, often pick fights with those who would have the record set straight, deliberately drawing as many people as possible into distraction. Rather like you have done here. 82.42.133.198 01:28, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Why would I want to pick a fight with an IP address? Just because people disagree with you isn't a good reason to start calling people "Dimwits" and "Liars". It's not the sort of behaviour Liverpool supporters engage in, it's the behaviour of "Glory Hunters". THE END. Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Famous Fans
Further to the request for discussion before making changes to the section, I thought it needed its own discussion section. To start off one from me - why is John Lennon included when all authorative Beatles/Lennon biographies indicate he had no interest in football? Rushian77 18:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Not sure. Maybe someone who knows different may offer a suggestion? If not we'll get rid. Maybe someone was getting confused with the fact he was born in Liverpool??? Jamie 08:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yea, according to whatever I've read as well the only sure thing is that none of the Beatles were interested in football. Its probably an assumption just coz Lennon was a Liverpudlian. Kinda crazy 15:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Pope John Paul II loved all football teams not any in particular Im amazed that your "claiming" him as a supporter-Also John Lennon was not a Liverpool fan-He didnt like football.

How Many matches did Pope John Paul II go to ?

I thought John Lennon was a Leeds Utd fan

Talk page
Wikipedia policy/Etiquette is that talk pages aren't edited, rather Archived when they get too big. These topics may arise in the future and without any discussion history debates or issues will be reinvented. Also to be honest the discussion page here is no where near the size of other pages, i don't think we have much to worry about at the moment.Jamie 09:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Im putting in the disputed article box again,ive tried my best to find middle ground but ive found this NSLE guy not very co-operative. I know (for a fact) Celtic fans sang that song first,but its still only a song-a great song no doubt about it.I believe the disputed article box allows encyclopedia buffs the opportunity to explore this Anfield myth and know that theres more to this storie than what they have been led to believe —This unsigned comment was added by 58.84.67.32 (talk • contribs).

 * As a neutral I don't "know" whether the Liverpool fans or the Celtic fans sang it first. I only know that there have been evidence put up to support the Liverpool fans' claim, and none, apart from hearsay, to support the Celtic fans'.
 * If you are confident about your claim, why don't you put up some verifiable evidence here for us all to judge? We'll then all be happy.  Repeating groundless claims over and over again here won't lead you anywhere.  --Pkchan 14:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Misc

 * With the Champions League squads being set following the transfer window, a few more Liverpool players have been given squad numbers. Adam Hammill is 40 (David Martin hasn't been assigned a number yet), James Smith is 41, Daniel O'Donnell is 42, Lee Peltier is 43 and Robbie Foy is 44.  Great job with the page! 24.68.200.219 07:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The club have announce to sign new argentine central defender which arrive at june, Gabriel Alejandro Paletta, now playing at C.A. Banfield. Can someone write the article b4 he arrived? Matthew hk 14:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Her is some material: He born in February 15 1986, and won the 2005 FIFA World Youth Championship, weight 80kg, 183cm tall...Matthew hk 15:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment by anonymous user
That article is purely heresay it holds no evidence whatsoever and the whole. "Who sang YNWA first" is debatable aswell as heavily disputable. The claim that Celtic fans sang the song first is real and its not going to go away any time soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.84.77.240 (talk • contribs).

 * Back up your claim with evidence here. Otherwise your claim still stay as a "claim", ie unverifiable assertion which every editor is entitled to discard.  --Pkchan 02:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So your trying to base the whole theory of Liverpool being the first fans to sing that song based purely on the say so of a newspaper-that argument holds no water as your well aware-To call 'The Guardian' as verifiable evidence is a disgrace and is wholly contemptable.
 * Why is the Guardian a disgrace? And no, that's not what the whole theory is being based on - I would say that, Celtic supporters aside, just about everyone would agree that Liverpool sang it first. I dare say most people don't even know that Celtic sing it. But either way it's going to be controversial. Maybe we could amend the text in the article to say that Celtic fans firmly state that they sang it first, but most people and sources indicate this to be untrue. Stu  ’Bout ye!  16:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * However tearful Celtic fans want to get about the subject and/or the Guardian article - its still more cited evidence than Celtic fans have provided. So it stays. Find a source backing up your silly claim and then come back. Jamie 16:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * If when the article gets unprotected and vandalism resumes I intend to contact the ISP. NSL E (T+C) at 01:01 UTC (2006-03-15)

Its not vandalism,its the truth -Wikipedia is about facts and Liverpool fans claiming that song first is a damned lie-breed only through ignorance.

 * We still haven't seen you put forward any evidence to support your claim. Prove your assertion and let others verify it, or your claim will continue to be ignored and reverted here.  Please note that that thousands of Celtic fans claiming that they sang YNWA first doesn't count as a proof -- it is as convincing as that thousands of Liverpool fans claiming that they sang YNWA first, that is, not convincing at all.  --Pkchan 11:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Neither have you-The Guardian newspaper has no creedence in this issue whatsoever.What you are doing in effect is dishonest,on a medium like the internet that is nothing new-however,when you spout those lies on a trusted encyclopedia like Wikipedia thats just not on,and for that reason alone this issue will not go to sleep.You have every right to claim Liverpool fans sang YNWA in the early 60s - Theres no problem with that.

Debatable and disputable + Absolutlty NO proof = Not worthy of Wikipedia article

 * There is verifiable proof of Liverpool adopting the song from 1962 onwards, both in contemporary press (Liverpool Echo, various national newspapers) and in contemporary radio and TV broadcasts (both of matches and in the famous Panorama documentary). No such similar contemporary evidence exists for Celtic singing the song anywhere near this early. Not one iota. The same can be said for every other club in world football. As such the evidence for the claim of LFC singing YNWA first is both clear and substantiated. Rushian77 18:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not clear and substantiated,if it was we wouldnt be having this discussion nothing in regards to Liverpool Fans singing that song first is verifiable other than your claim that you sang it in the 60s Thats the only thing you can verify,There are thousands of Celtic fans all over this cyberspace who tell you They sang that song in the 1950s along with "Hail Hail"<Coincidentally from another musical of that era-The Pirates of Penzance---You can shout and scream your heart out but the fact remains Celtic fans sang that song first in the 1950s’Bout ye!  12:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I dont believe im right - I know it. As for the verifiability-Liverpool have not proven an iota that they sang that song first

 * What type of arguement is "thousands of celtic fans ...wil tell you" - I think alot more Liverpool fans will tell you the same. Basically a useless arguement. Heres a little test for you - Go to Google and type in You'll Never Walk Alone, see how many celtic references there are compared to Liverpool. I think it speaks volumes that you are clutching on a song, i mean as your history goes theres not much. I guess i should feel sorry for you. Jamie

Personal issues aside you still have no verifiable evidence Liverpool sang YNWA first. A lie told often enough becomes the truth. Lenin (1870 - 1924)

 * We never said it was a lie. Celtic may have sang it first, but as there's no proof, and it's more or less the official theme of Liverpool, we're sticking with 'pool unless we get proof  Sceptr e  ( Talk  ) 20:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Fans of Liverpool claim to have sang it first(Lie) If fans of Liverpool claimed they sang it in the early 1960s there would have been nothing to debate-except Fans of Liverpool are trying to claim something they cannot prove.

There is clearly proof that Liverpool fans were singing the song in the 1960s or at least the 1970s. What you need to do, is to find proof that Celtic fans were singing it earlier. Not just something like "thousands of Celtic fans would tell you they were singing it earlier". Real proof (video,newspapers etc.). And please stop calling everyone liers.

-Just a comment, but the fact is that while proof can be shown that Liverpool used the song in the early 60's, it does not form proof that Liverpool were the first. It proves nothing more than what it states, regardless of the absence of any evidence from Celtic. Therefore, wouldn't it be better to use something like "Liverpool have used the song since the 1960's (insert reference), and are believed to be the first club to have done so." It probably won't shut anybody up, but at least it's not subjective. Andy 10:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The most successful English football team

 * statistically the most successful English football team to date

Undoubtedly we need to cite a source to support this claim? --Pkchan 07:16, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Any book with facts and figures on football league/premiership clubs ought to prove that. --Stevefarrell 23:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * It is an undisputed fact. See Titles by club as well as European Cup and Champions League finals Overall Statistics and Liverpool F.C. Honours. These links are cited in the article and the facts contained in many others. Alias Flood 00:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Football365 has a table of statistics for all league games played since the clubs joined which shows that up to end of season 2002/03:

Team                   Sns  Pld   W   D    L    F    A  Pts  Pct 1 Liverpool               98 3916 1839 951 1126 6714 4935 5071 58.4% 2 Manchester United       99 3948 1812 965 1171 6745 5202 5037 57.6% 3 Arsenal                 98 3916 1732 980 1204 6444 5074 4851 55.9% 4 Wolverhampton Wanderers 103 4150 1690 955 1505 6779 6180 4702 50.8%

 * and Football365 again for all games in the top tier (Division 1 or Premiership)

Team                   Sns  Pld   W   D    L    F    A   Pts 1 Liverpool               90 3602 1654 895 1053 5901 4467 4703 2 Everton                102 3986 1620 977 1389 6273 5634 4584 3 Arsenal                 88 3602 1587 934 1081 5847 4617 4586 4 Manchester United       80 3246 1476 822  948 5506 4331 4292

 * The top-tier statistics have been updated to include the last three seasons but I've omitted the percentage. If you add these to the trophy tally then I think the statistics suport the claim. --Barfbagger 13:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Famous Fans / Managers Section
I noticed that recently the section has been changed regarding the table and its format. I don't know whether its intentional but its really messy. Anyone want to revert it or fix it? Jamie 07:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Benitez era / End of 2005-6 Season
My brief summary of Liverpool's present position has been deleted three times now without any attempt at compromise. I have replaced it once again, in good faith, believing it to be relevant to the article.

Liverpool are poised to break the 70 point barrier for only the third time in its premiership history. Indeed, it will be only the second time since the Premiership was reduced to 38 games. On top of this, the team is situated in 3rd place and certainly look likely to finish within the top four.

Following last year's disappointing Premiership performance and the problems of finishing fifth without automatic Champions League qualification, especially with only five games left to play, it does not seem too early to mention this in the article. This is not a running commentary of the nature where it would be meaningless within the first few weeks of a season. It is relevant and of interest.

Rather than coninue with this edit war, please propose a compromise rather than continue with this persistent revision. - Alias Flood 22:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

 * This paragraph was vandalised 7 April at 11:45 by 88.109.212.14 (talk • contribs) and then deleted 11 minutes later by 212.158.75.199 (talk • contribs). Most strange ...

I have reinstated it. - Alias Flood 19:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I have personally deleted on occasions for the main reason that Wikipedia isn't a season summary for your team. This isn't a fans page. Its an encyclopedia that should be informative. Having a season summary is messy and requires constant maintenance, thats why normally only significant events are cited. These thing should be saved for an article that reviews the season, but they shouldn't be in the main article. Jamie 08:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with Jamie. – Elisson • Talk 10:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * As three days had passed with no comment, I was concerned that we might not have the opportunity to discuss this. It is doubly fortunate, therefore, that you both respond in unison on the same day. I am fully aware of what Wikipedia is and what it is not, hence my links in my first comment under this heading and my subsequent links here and now so that we may all be on equal footing, as all editors should be. This should also be reflected by the fact that rather than continue edit wars, I asked for dialogue to take place on the Talk Page due to JamieStapleton's persistent revisions. Whilst I agree that Wikipedia should not be used to give a blow by blow account of each sporting event and risk becoming an online scores reporting repository, I do see genuine merit in an article being up to date and reflecting significant events as they happen. There is no need to wait until the end of a season to say that a team has reached its best/second best position in ten years and could possibly reach its best position ever in a particular league. Such events must surely be of interest as well as being significant and germane. In this light, I find it hard to agree to a revert. Again I ask if you can suggest a compromise? Alias Flood 00:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The reason i edited was because no comment on the talk page was made to say what the changes were and why. You can't ask for open discussion when things are reverted and not have any when things are added. New additions to the article should really be proposed and discussed before adding. See Avoiding_common_mistakes

 * Going on to your new paragraph it really looks out of place and is stating miscellaneous facts that don't need to be in the article. It reads more like a newspaper column. Significance is something that will be remembered in future years, i don't think Liverpools current league standing and their future semi-final opponents is something significant. These facts as said before can be included in a season review at the end of the season, but nothing is stopping the season review being generated now and linked from the main page. I see this as an adaquate compromise, as does Elisson. Hope this helps. Jamie 08:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Before responding here, I have looked at a few other clubs on my 'watchlist' and there appears to be little consistency in this respect when taken at random. Some give details of present performance and others do not, all to greater and lesser degrees.

 * Without mentioning the present position of a club (on this occasion), I feel that we sell the reader short. If I came fresh to this article, I would want to know about “now” as well as the past accolades. I would want to know about present form and league position and whether the club was improving and contesting, or declining and struggling, especially as the season draws to a close. The present time may be dwarfed, or indeed forgotten, by future events but that does not make it of any less value to someone reading it now.

 * I appreciate that we both feel strongly about this but I would like us to go forward in agreement as I believe that we both have the best interests of Wikipedia at heart. To this end, I propose my own compromise of including a brief reference under Liverpool's Premiership performance. Can we agree on this, please? - Alias Flood 23:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well currently the proposed compromise is 2:1 against yours. But in the light of civility and wikipedia I have proposed this matter to Wikiproject: Football for opinions on the matter. Mainly opinions regarding whether running season commentary should be included in any clubs main article. This should provide better scope to the matter. Until this has been resolved I will remove the commentary. Bear with the process. Jamie 19:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, it seems that you were more keen on canvassing opinion in your own favour than presenting the facts accurately, i.e. inclusion of a paragraph on this team having reached the 70 point mark for only the second time in 10 seasons and only the third time since the introduction of the Premier League. I have now pointed that discussion to this page. Statements implying that I was adding "who the game is against"  as well as adding a "running commentary" do little to bring this matter forward. - Alias Flood 20:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I have just found that this information, i.e. Liverpool reaching the 70 point mark for only the second time in 10 seasons, has been cited as a "significant landmark" and can be found at Benitez' Reds on landmark course. As this is verifiable, are there still objections? - Alias Flood 21:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I just looked up Liverpool's league history, and they have reached 70 or more points on 14 occasions since 3 points for a win was introduced in 1981-82, ten of those consecutively, so I don't think it is particularly remarkable. The current season already takes up more of the article than Bob Paisley's entire tenure. A worthwhile question to ask when an article already has a long history section (and daughter article) is "Will this event be regarded as notable in ten years time?", which I don't regard as being true here. Oldelpaso 09:33, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Spion Kop
Which football ground was the first to have a terrace dubbed Spion Kop? Arsenal fans say their old Manor Ground was first, and the Anfield page  states that the terrace at Sheffield was named accordingly first, but in both cases no verifiable source is provided. I am attempting to clear up this matter on the relevant of discussion pages. Please, all input welcome. 82.42.133.198 03:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * My understanding is that Spion Kop is named after a hill in Africa where a fierce battle was fought that led to the loss of many (mainly) Liverpool lives. From Hillsborough Justice Campaign, "On January 24th 1900, there was a battle in the South African township of Natal, which led to appalling loss of life, especially amongst many Liverpool people. The battle became known as the battle of the Spion Kop. The battle was one of the many disasters at the Boer War and ironically, the battle need never have happened."

 * From lfconline, "They won their first championship in 1900/01, but were again relegated two years later. After another year in the second division they bounced back up and immediately won their second championship in 1904/05. As a reward the directors built the legendary Spion Kop for the fans. Named after a hill in Natal where a Merseyside regiment suffered heavy losses in the Boer War. Three hundred died in a vain attempt to lift the siege of Ladysmith, many of them Liverpool lads. "Spion Kop" means "vantage point" in Afrikaans."
 * I can't think why anyone outside of Liverpool FC would want to claim fame to the name. I hope that this helps. -- Alias Flood 04:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I just found this at Anfield History, "After Liverpool had won their second League Championship in 1906 the directors rewarded the fans by building a new banking at the Walton Breck Road. A local journalist, Ernest Edwards, of the Liverpool Daily Post and Echo christened it the Spion Kop, after a famous hill in South Africa where a local regiment had suffered heavy losses during the Boer War." It seems that the name came from a local journalist, again referring to the heavy loss of Liverpool lives. Again, I hope that this helps. -- Alias Flood 04:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

 * AF - Is is my understanding that the Walton Breck Road mound/bank/hill existed prior to 1906. Indeed, according to the Anfield page: "In 1906, the banked stand at one end of the ground was renamed the Spion Kop". (emphasis mine). And so in the year 1906 the bank officially became known as the Spion Kop, and prior to that date it is believed that some supporters had already considered the similarity.

 * So I am not still not convinced by the claim that, unofficially, Arsenal's Manor Ground had the first Spion Kop, simply because no evidence is forthcoming for it. At present, it is no different than the claim that Liverpool supporters nicked the song 'You'll Never Walk Alone' from Man Utd supporters. Ste B 21:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey soft lad, "Kop" means "Hill" or "Mound" - Vantage Point, my arse! Vera, Chuck and Dave.

 * And in Dutch (from which Afrikaans is descended) "Spion" means spy. So a literal "Spy Hill" could be better translated as Vantage Point. -- Barfbagger 06:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Alright Barfbagger? OK, I phoned a friends Wife who is South African and she says you are not wrong but by the same token you are not right. The problem is, that Afrikaans was a "spoken language" at the time of the battle, and that Dutch was the written form, so as per, things go a bit wonkey in the translation. She says Spion in Kicthen or Cape Dutch (Afrikaans) means "See" not "Spy". So to say Spion Kop means "Spy Hill", would be like saying "Spy Hill Hill" It would certainly mean if one was at the top one would have a "vantage point", but it would not mean it meant "vantage point" It would be like saying "I am standing on the top of Tower Bridge, I have a good "vantage point", this must be the name of the bridge". But she says that whilst I'm right in saying it means "hill or "mound" you are more correct, although it isn't really correct! God! Why the hell didn't they just call it The Home End??? Up The Reds! Vera, Chuck & Dave 10:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "Spy" is a literal translation but I guess we could agree that it is a synonym for "see" or "view" (check out Roget's Thesaurus") so that would make it a "see hill" or "view hill" which I think is close to "vantage point" as that was probably why it was given the name. I certainly don't agree that it would follow that it would be "Spy Hill Hill".  Anyway, it was named a long time ago and I am sure that Afrikaans has changed since that time as it has assimilated many other languages (I believe Malay is in there somewhere according to the Afrikaans monument in Paarl) and a present-day Afrikaaner may not realise the difference.  For example many British decry the use the American "gotten" as not being proper "English" but I understand that this was actually in common use in England several hundred years ago and it is "British English" that has changed.  However, I am glad they called it the Kop as we now have the apellation "Kopite", home-ender wouldn't have the same ring to it. Barfbagger 12:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

 * No, home - ender certainly wouldn't have the same ring to it! Fair points, you can have that one! Vera, Chuck & Dave 13:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC) PS I misread you, I thought you said "Spion" meant "Spy hill" - hence "hill, hill".Vera, Chuck & Dave
 * I admire your magnanimity Vera Chuck & Dave! "Spion Kop"="Vantage Point"?! It means "Small Hill". Denise.

Violent Reputation?
I'm reverting to before the insert by user 131.111.8.98. This is an opinion, and cannot possibly be substantiated with evidence.

quote: Liverpool FC have a reuptation (sic) ''amongst English Premier League supporters of being a violent team, or moreso a time with violent supporters; especially in older times when many players came from the poor, crime-ridden areas of Liverpool. Although this is not so much the case in modern times, local Liverpool supporters are still known to be strong-voiced and sometimes a little fanatical.''

Ronaldo Guevara 13:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh it could be substantianted with press commentary... if it were true. I'm English and I don't believe Liverpool fans have a bad reputation at all. Good revert. --kingboyk 15:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah?

Vandalism
Some of the infobox has been vandalised - I don't know all the information/characters though so I can't change it back. 82.71.216.90 11:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Good Article nomination
At 43 kb I think this article is probably more suited to a peer review than a good article nomination. Anyhow as I'm here I'll make a couple of suggestions as to things which can be improved:
 * The history section pays too much attention to recent events and not enough to those further back; of the club's 114 years of history, the first 67 years are given just seven lines, whereas events from the last 12 months take up several paragraphs.
 * No need to include reserve players, scouts, masseurs etc.
 * There is a section about the proposed new stadium, but no section about Anfield. Oldelpaso 18:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Catholic??
So the page states Liverpool is mainly considered a Catholic club. Oh? I'm a bloody atheist and I support them. The only real link with Celtic is they sing our song. I'd say that Liverpool is mainly secular, and frankly religion just doesn't get involved. I don't know of any religious songs regularly sung, the players are mixed denominations, the fans are from all backgrounds. The only reason I haven't deleted that entire sentence (typo on prominent included) is that some muppet would just revert it. Please, take religious aggrandising elsewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.104.228.185 (talk • contribs).

 * Does it? I reverted that edit (along with another) almost an hour ago. – Elisson • Talk 20:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think any reference to religious allegiance is entirely misleading. My mother's family came from a strong Orange background and were Liverpool supporters.  My father's family were also Protestant but supported Everton. My mother insisted that Everton was in fact the Catholic club.  As a seventh-day atheist I continue to support Liverpool in a purely secular fashion.  Religious tags are probably purely the POV of whoever is doing the tagging. Barfbagger 13:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, one of my uncles, strongly Welsh Methodist, supported Liverpool for well over 50 years. -- Arwel (talk) 13:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Yews want lobbin' off The Stick! everton are the Catholic Team. Vera, Chuck and Dave.

Shouldn't this discussion come to an end right here? I don't see how religious associaions matter in football. Kinda crazy 11:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes I think its probably due to Liverpool having that special relationship with a certain Scottish club with affiliations to the Catholic church. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.84.64.8 (talk • contribs) 15:56, 4 July 2006.

Neither liverpool or everton where founded or indeed associated with religious factions in a similar way to the glasgow situation. However Everton generally became the 'Catholic club' during a period of the 20th century, due to a number of Irish Catholic players they had. Therefore the whole religion debate is a bit pointless,b ut it should be mentioned that at certain periods there has been a loose cultural connection. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.112.229.66 (talk • contribs) 00:49, 6 June 2006.

My family's origin is Turkish. I was born and raised in Australia. I am a muslim. Religion has nothing to do with this song nor the club. I am a strong, faithful Liverpool supporter and the support has been passed down from my fathers side which happen to be all Turkish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Everton are traditionally considered the Catholic club and Liverpool are considered the protestant club. I'm sure that there are plenty of people from different religions who support theses clubs and no one is disputing this. It is however true that certain clubs are considered to have or to have had links with religions.--The Next Biggish Thing 14:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

 * See, that's always the way I'd considered it, too (although I'm a Catholic who supports Liverpool). However, the debate still rages fiercely - I used to work at Radio Merseyside on the Roger Phillips phone-in, and it would crop up all the time. As soon as one person said on the phone that Everton were always the Catholic club, you'd get twenty people phoning in to say they were the Protestant club. It's such a fervent debate that there's really just not the space it needs on the Wikipedia entry, and surely the fact that there's even a debate shows that the religious affiliations of the two clubs aren't as ingrained in their existence as those of Rangers and Celtic - as such, I don't think it's necessary to include it. Seb Patrick 14:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Liverpool F.C./Archive 1


text:
List of ski areas and resorts

This is a list of ski areas and resorts around the world. At least 68 nations host snow-covered outdoor ski areas.

North America

See also
 * Comparison of North American ski resorts
 * Comparison of California ski resorts
 * Comparison of Colorado ski resorts

title: List of ski areas and resorts