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Talk:Tiramisu

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Australia
Why should there be any mention of of its status as a food fad in austrailia? Two16
 * You must be new around here. This is Wikipedia, where everything is encyclopedic; rumors, fads, lame interpretations, anything goes.

 * ''The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. "

don't move, sadly enough. — Nightst a  llion  (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Tiramisu → Tiramisù – Proper spelling. Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page. --Fibonacci 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Maybe in Italian it's correct but not in English. LuiKhuntek 08:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm a "pro-diacritic" in general, but Tiramisu entered English without the accent. Duja 16:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Opppose, this has a clear English usage, being "tiramisu". 132.205.45.110 21:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above. //MrD9 05:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support — the stress is on the final syllable. — Gareth Hughes 17:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Opppose: the name in English does not have an accent mark. Jonathunder 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Correct name. — Nightst a  llion  (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mascarpone cheese, or cream?
The article for some time has begun:
 * Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

In this edit, the sentence was changed to:
 * Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

I reverted. My problems with saying mascarpone cream instead of mascarpone cheese are: I think it's better for the reader to list the primal ingredients they are likely to already be familiar with—i.e., "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine". Thoughts? --TreyHarris 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Neither this article nor mascarpone explain what the term mascarpone cream means.  We do, on the other hand, link to the article which describes mascarpone as a cheese.
 * 2) Mascarpone cream contains many of the other ingredients, and they are used in the tiramisù only via the mascarpone cream.  So if we use the term mascarpone cream in this sentence, I think it would more precisely read:
 * Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa.
 * Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese and whipping cream, this is what is used in tiramisu and many other italian desserts, not pure mascarpone cheese. Ask any pasty chef in the world.  Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs.  --NEMT 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not denying that tiramisù contains mascarpone cream—I make tiramisù, I know what's in it. But mascarpone cream is not just mascarpone and cream.  Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese, whipped cream (not just "whipping" cream), and zabaglione, which in turn contains marsala, eggs, and sugar.

 * "Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs." First off, it's not my "proposal"—this language has been stable in this article for almost five years.  You're the one who wants to change it; you have the "proposal", not me.  Secondly, the difference is that there's an article on "spaghetti", and "spaghetti" is a well-known term to the general English-speaking public.  There's no article at mascarpone cream, and if you ask a random English speaker what it means, they're not going to be able to describe it.

 * I would say that if you'd like to write an article on mascarpone cream, I'd drop my objections to changing the sentence to #2 above. (But not #1—there's no reason to repeat eggs and sugar and Marsala.) But I'm not sure that mascarpone cream meets notability requirements for an article to itself (which is wrapped up in the whole reason I oppose this change). However, if you want to try creating a mascarpone cream article, go ahead.  --TreyHarris 18:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * So why not have it say "...typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa?" There isn't a pastry chef in the world who would respond to a customer asking the question "What's in Tiramisu besides the ladyfingers?" with "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, etc." he would just say "mascarpone cream."  --NEMT 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Because this article isn't for an audience of pasty chefs (who would not only already know what mascarpone cream is, they'd know what tiramisù is, too). The audience is people who do not know, but want to know, what's in tiramisù.  Telling them "ladyfingers and mascarpone cream" is not useful for that audience without defining mascarpone cream—if they know what mascarpone cream is, then they almost certainly know the most famous dish it is used in.  --TreyHarris 22:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Good point, but why stop there? Let's just be as clear as possible and say it's made out of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen... --NEMT 22:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

 * As someone who isn't a chef but has made tiramisu, and as someone who hasnt been involved in this, I'm glad it was left as "mascarpone cheese". Of course if anyone seriously thinks that saying cheese instead of cream is one step away from describing tiramisu on an atomic level, let them come forward now or forever stay silent on the issue. 59.167.164.197 15:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * As a long-time home cook and former cooking teacher and food writer, I can't recall the last time (if ever) I heard anyone refer to mascarpone as anything but "mascarpone." No "cheese," no "cream," just "mascarpone."  There really is no need to add either modifier to this article, as any recipe will give the specific list of ingredients and packages of the stuff are clearly labelled for anyone who is confused as to what to purchase.  Zlama (talk) 09:05, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

That accent
If the decision was made to leave the page title as "tiramisu", a decision I agree with, by the way, why is "tiramisù" being used throughout the article?

Incidentally, to counter the arguments put by the people supporting leaving the accent on the English word, yes, the stress is certainly on the last syllable, and that means that an accent is necessary in Italian (otherwise the stress would be on the penultimate syllable), but English does not use accents to mark stressed syllables.

Furthermore, whereas tiramisù is the correct Italian name, English tends to drop accents when adopting and naturalising foreign words when they are not necessary to understanding. "Cafe" is widely seen instead of "café"; the diaereses formerly seen in "zoölogy" and "coördinate" have long since gone. It is helpful to write "résumé", however, to avoid confusion with the verb "resume". — Paul G 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

 * All accents now removed, except in the Italian usage of the word. — Paul G 15:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The intro
Quick question: does tiramisu really metaphorically mean "make me happy"? Or is the word you're looking for literally? Artiste-extraordinaire 05:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it literally means "pull me up". ("Pick-me-up", as in the article, is close to literal, though not quite, but it has the advantage of conveying the idea better as an English idiom.) --Trovatore 06:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Type(s) of rum?
Does the recipe call for spiced or unspiced rum? 24.131.138.87 12:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Soyu Ewww - just the thought of spiced rum in this makes me feel queasy :-) Stick with the normal stuff. FlagSteward 12:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Dish history
I know it's very uncyclopedic, but I can assure you by personal experience that my mom made tiramisu at least since I can remember, that is the end of the Seventies... And since she's not a great inventor, I bet this wonderful masterpiec of our cuisine had at least some decades of history back then. Basil II 01:09, 2 November 2007 (CEST)
 * More authoritativly, Rick Stein says it originated in Italy in 1966 (in Venice, I think) Rick Stein: From Venice to Istanbul (BBC). Onanoff (talk) 09:50, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Move to Tiramisù?
Can we please move this article to the proper Italian spelling, since that's what we use in the lead? Alternatively we should use English spelling throughout. Thanks 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

 * This was discussed above, and there is consensus not to use the accented spelling. Carl.bunderson (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Marsala does not belong
Tiramisu has nothing to do with zabaglione. Time to get our references right please. 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm italian, and i've never seen any zabaglione on my tiramiù... --213.156.52.96 (talk) 23:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Same here, I'm Italian and there isn't any "zabaglione" in the Tiramisù -- Manuel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.45.40.36 (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * There is most definitely zabaglione in tiramisu. For one source, see Rose's Heavenly Cakes by Rose Levy Beranbaum. Or The Best International Recipe from America's Test Kitchen. There are certainly some simplified recipes out there, and many people substitute dark rum for marsala, but the original definitely was made with zabaglione.Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Sorry but Carlo Campeol is more reliable than Rose Levy Beranbaum and there's no zabajone in the original recipe. ekerazha (talk) 19:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

 * For the correct, authentic, traditional ingredients, you need to go back in time to get closer to the original. Rose may be a goddess, but she often puts her own spin on things, as do most chefs.  Citing her as an expert on an Italian recipe is just plain silly.  That said, she could be on the right track.  The recipe, whichever origin you prefer, was developed in an upscale Italian restaurant which probably would have used zabaglione as the "custard" portion.  But don't cite a contemporary recipe as automatically correct because the cook is famous.  And the less said about America's Test Kitchen, the better.  Zlama (talk) 09:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

 * That is the same as saying it's normal to put pineapple on pizza just because americans invented the (quite disgusting and offensive) "hawaii pizza". TheLazza (talk) 10:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I can't do a citation
I'm fed up with wikipedia for the evening, I am unable to add my cite properly for the ingredients.

There seems to be some confusion in thsi article's recipe. It looks like two different recipes mixed together. Notice, for instance, how the liquor is added twice and the lady fingers are assembled twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.160.208 (talk) 03:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Origin and History
The section "Origin" should be merged into "History", avoiding duplication and preferably without unsourceable statements. 88.233.36.11 (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

'original recipe'
"'The original recipe called for the following ingredients: Savoiardi biscuits, eggs, sugar, rum and cocoa. In the original recipe, there was no liquor [...]'" So did it include rum or not? 84.246.155.101 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC).

no, cognac... cognac is expensive, so brandy is supposed to be the alternative, though i would stick with rum for a better flavor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Uncyclopedic
This whole article is very uncyclopedic, and should be removed. you cannot say you have no idea the origin of the dish, and then come back around and say the original ingredients dont have any liquor!!!!! what Italian older than 30 doesnt remember Tiramisu?!? Ridiculous. First of all, it wasnt a dish aimed at children, it was an erotic dish... 'pick me up', meaning I need some help for round two in the bed. What child do you want running around on a sugar and caffeine rush? What child is spoiled enough to have such a special desert created for them? rice pudding and shut your mouth. So that analysis on why their was no liquor is just ignorant. Its cognac people... the liquor is cognac. Nobody uses it because most restaurants are too cheap and cognac is expensive. Brandy is your unsavory alternative... wine? yuk! next, its mascropone cheese. just taste the difference in the dishes, and that should be obvious. besides, any old italian chef will tell you... 71.195.233.157 (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I do agree with some of this, it is not a child's dish, there was a brothel above "Le Beccherie" and the desert was named "pick me up" for the obvious reasons (so you people take children to brothels?). If I am not mistaking the name is also slang for "turn me on". grossetti 83.228.131.29 (talk) 19:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Well, this being Wikipedia, if you don't like it, fix it. I don't mean that flippantly. I agree that this article could do with a bit of love and research. I was amazed to find that Tiramisu is such a recent invention, but it does seem to be so. It's a curious story that deserves a good write up. If you have the time and inspiration to do that, that'd be great. If you make a start, I'm sure some of us will try and help. But please, try to make the piece encyclopaedic - for some reason this page attracts lots of people who think they know the only Tiramisu recipe and everybody else is wrong - reliable references are a good thing ;-) And for the record, I prefer cognac. I didn't realise there was any question about mascarpone? GyroMagician (talk) 00:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

 * There's a difference between being uncyclopedic and being unencyclopedic. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

 * So you're here to help improve the article? GyroMagician (talk) 00:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

 * All of the "brothel" story is complete fantasy, without any reliable source. Moreover, all of the "original" recipes (which tend to be the older ones, of course) do not mention alcohol. TheLazza (talk) 10:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I have made some revisions that should help address these issues. Any thoughts? Patrick Colvin (talk) 05:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Alcohol
Amongst a set of excellent edits, Patrick Colvin removed the reference to alcohol in the opening section. I put it back, because I always expect alcohol in Tiramisu, but I realise that I'm not even nearly a valid source ;-) So, we have two questions:

 * Should Tiramisu contain alcohol?
 * If it should, which one(s)?

I'm not asking for your personal opinion, even if your Italian great-great-great-great grandmother always made it that way - we need something approaching a reliable source. Yes, it is valid to say 'sometimes' or 'often', but we don't want to end up with a list of every type of booze that's ever entered a Tiramisu.

And BTW Patrick, thanks, the page is looking much better! GyroMagician (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

 * My copy of Larousse Gastronomique defines it including "spirits or liqueur". Where in the article ought this go? And not as much RS, but my Martha Stewart cookbook says liquor is optional; and my four recipes in Google Docs all view the liquor as mandatory. I have always perceived liquor as a defining component of the dish. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't totally sure about the opening paragraph. According to the sources I have found, it seems that liquor is mandatory in the cheese mixture, but not traditionally used with the coffee. So I left it out of the description because I wasn't sure how to include it without excess verbiage. If anyone has an idea, please go for it! As for which alcohol, sweet marsala is traditional (every italian source I could find was adamant on this point), but dark rum is a frequent substitute. And some people use just about any liquor you can think of. Patrick Colvin (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I've boldly changed it to something based on the source I have. Maybe it needs to be tweaked, but I changed it as little as possible while not saying anything the source doesn't say. The entry in Larousse is this: "Italian dessert invented during the 1970s, based on plain cake or a yeasted sweet bread soaked in spirits of liqueur and coffee, topped with a mascarpone mixture, sometimes containing beaten egg yolks lightened with whisked egg whites." carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 00:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * That's very interesting. I've never heard of a tiramisu (or anything resembling one) containing a yeasted bread. I would think it would be very tough and unpleasant. I wonder where larousse was getting their info? Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. I've found some online sources saying some people make tiramisu with leftover panettone. Which is technically a bread. I'm not sure if this variation belongs in the intro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickcolvin (talk • contribs) 07:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have boldly decided that your reference to bread is very interesting but as it is an uncommon variation, it does not belong in the introduction. I've moved it, along with the citation, to the preparation section. What do you think?Patrick Colvin (talk) 07:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Looks good to me, Patrick. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I like it. The whole article is looking good - well done. GyroMagician (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * In the original recipe there's not alcohol. The Italian article says that there's no alcohol in the original recipe . Here you can find a video (in Italian language) where the son of the woman who owned the restaurant where the Tiramisu was born describes the recipe... and there's no alcohol. Of course, you can add some Marsala, but there's no Marsala in the original recipe. ekerazha (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

New Yorker 1936
About the article on the new Yorker, if you see with attention the image of the page http://books.google.it/books?id=uConAQAAIAAJ&q=tiramisu&dq=tiramisu&hl=it&ei=M2d7Ts2fHNKM4gTt9MSrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA you can see it’s a review of an Italian restaurant in Brooklyn the Noodle Pudding. Is an actual restaurant and in the article there is the telephone number (718-623-3737) this is the actual number not the number in the 1936. More: result the restaurant is opened in 1994 or 1995. Could someone of New York confirm that? This question was object of an heavy discussion in the italian wikipedia too http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussione:Tiramisù

Post scriptum: sorry for my English --217.203.171.136 (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.203.171.136 (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Why bother polishing this turd?
Another shite article in this so-called encyclopedia. Incomplete sentences, poor research and organization, etc, etc, etc. Every article should be required to pass a basic editorial process before being published. Every proposed edit should be required to be approved by an editor. This experiment is a massive failure. ~ 72.16.18.113 (talk) 21:08, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, as the Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit, you could fix problems you find (see the edit button at the top right of the page), rather than complaining about them. But maybe you prefer to complain? GyroMagician (talk) 09:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Why so specific?
Does there need to be actual instructions for how to prepare this dish included in this entry? It's a level of detail that is unusual for food entries and seems like asking for trouble to me. Similar point re claims as to what the "original recipe" contained or did not contain. Most dishes, however famous, have variations, and the account of the origin of the dish doesn't seem to allow for claims to what the definitive version is. There are plenty of other problems (grammatical etc) with this entry, as others have commented. I would be happy to straighten some of them out, but something like removing or "vaguing" the preparation section is a big call - what do others think? Faff296 (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Why isn't the "s" pronounced as [z] since it's between two vowels? I know it's a compound word, but "chissà" is written with two "s" in order to prevent the pronunciation as [z]. --2.245.121.139 (talk) 13:14, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

 * There is no such thing as an "s" pronounced as [z] in Italian. If we want to say [z], we write "z". Italian is a "read as it's written" kind of language. TheLazza (talk) 11:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * "z" is pronounced as [ts] or [dz] in Italian. "s" is usually pronounced as [s], but it's [z] between vowels. The pronunciation for "casa" is [kaza]. The doubling of "s" in "chissà" is called "radoppiamento" in Italian. I wonder why this doesn't apply to "tiramisù". Italian has "letter to sound correspondence", but it's not read as it's written. You often can't hear double consonants. Moreover you can't decide if you use the Italian standard letter or rare consonants. How could I know that it's "yogurt" and not "jogurt" or "iogurt"? --2.245.173.139 (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably we are not referring at the same "zeta" sound. I tried to spell again "casa" and "chissà" and I noticed the slight vibration in "casa". Not that this is a Z, in Italian a Z would be much stronger. Doubling a consonant means that the letter is read "longer", not that it's different. "Tiramisù", "casa" and "chissà" all have an S, not a zeta. The slight different sound in Tiramisù comes from the following "u". In Italian, "su" is always read with a "pure" S sound, no matter what. Anyway, the difference is so small that most Italian people won't even notice it. It also changes between Italian regions. I don't understand your example with the word "yogurt". Neither Y nor J are Italian letters, and all of the three words you've written would read the same in my language. In particular, there is absolutely no difference between how you read "Y" and "I" in Italian. --TheLazza (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I forgot to mention... Apart from the fact that "su" is spelled the same everytime, another argument for this pronunciation is that "Tiramisu" is the bare act of joining two words, moreover the accent is put on the last letter. That's why we pronounce it that way. --TheLazza (talk) 19:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your input as a native speaker. Yes, "y" is not an Italian letter, but it's used for loanwords. "Yogurt" is still written with an "y". If you don't know that word and someone tells you to write "yogurt" in Italian, how would you know that you shouldn't use "i", but the letter "y", which isn't part of the alphabet. I was talking about the ambiguity because there are multiple possibilites for that sound, so you can't always tell how something is written. I know that doubling makes the consonant longer, but in languages where you don't differentiate it, it's hard to hear this and "radoppiamento" sometimes also happens by context. Maybe "casa" wasn't the best example. If this word doesn't have a real [z], which words have it? I don't mean how zeta is generally pronounced in Italian, I mean IPA [z]. Would chiesa or sbaglio be such examples? --2.245.173.139 (talk) 19:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll join in. Your examples are all right, the "s" in chiesa and casa are pronounced as IPA [z]. Like TheLazza pointed out, because tiramisù is a compound word (tirami + su) that "s" is pronounced IPA [s] as if that su were a standalone word. - Cloverleaf II (talk) 10:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * As mentioned aboved, compound word often double the consonant because of radoppiamento like "chissà", "laggiù" and "lassù", the latter being a compound of "là" and "su". So there must be some other explanation. --2.245.212.79 (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * «"y" is not an Italian letter, but it's used for loanwords» Totally correct. «If you don't know that word and someone tells you to write "yogurt" in Italian» Honestly, I wouldn't know. If you tell me a foreign (non-Italian) word or a loanword, I can't be really sure... If I wanted to teach a child, I would say "yogurt con la ipsilon" ("yogurt with a y"). But if you tell me an Italian word which I don't know, almost surely I can write it down correctly, even if I don't know it. I need only to hear it and maybe know a couple of exceptions (which are likely less than ten) for words with the syllable "sce" vs. "scie".
 * Back on your example, yes I think you are correct about the IPA [z] in casa, chiesa and sbaglio (I'm not a linguist, just trying to understand and give some answer :P). If I say them loud, my mouth forms a [z]. If I whisper them, my mouth forms a [s]. I swear! I didn't know that but I just tried. That's a bit weird maybe, but it really is not that important. It's more a matter of pitch and accent maybe.
 * «compound word often double the consonant because of radoppiamento like "chissà", "laggiù" and "lassù"» Often, not every time. AFAIK mostly when both words have one syllable. There are indeed many examples in the opposite direction: pianoforte, lavasecco, apriporta, sottoscala, paradenti, etc.
 * There is also the concept of raddoppiamento fonosintattico which includes the pronunciation of words. According to the Treccani Encyclopedia it is related to the writing of compound words. Oh, yes, BTW you forgot a double in "raddoppiamento". Double consonants in Italian are tricky sometimes. --TheLazza (talk) 00:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess you guys are talking about gemination or syntactic gemination here, which is a quite common phenomenon in Italian. As for the noun tiramisu, I think it just belongs to the category of multi-syllable words (e.g. pianoforte, lavasecco, apriporta, sottoscala, paradenti, etc.) which are not subject to gemination, that's why it features no double -s-. For us Italians it's not easy to explain such rules because they are not usually taught in public schools, we just apply them in everyday talk but we are often not aware of how they work; one should take diction classes to learn them for good, just like actors, journalists and the like do.--Teno85 (talk) 03:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I found the real explanation by looking at words like "mostrommi" in Italian poetry. Today it would be "mi mostrò". By putting "mi" at the end and making it one word, the "ò" in "mostrò" loses its graphic accent since it's no longer at the end of the word. It is, however, still stressed when pronouncing it. There is a rule that only after "parole tronche" gemination is required. This is not the case with "tìrami". --2.245.73.195 (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2020
Luca.zentilin (talk) 08:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

in the History section,the following sentence has no basis and no sources: "Most accounts of the origin of tiramisu date its invention to the 1960s in the region of Veneto, Italy, at the restaurant" Le Beccherie "in Treviso."

in fact, according to several sources, the origin of the dessert is from the Friuli Venezia Giulia region. Here the links that prove it:

- (acknowledgment from the Italian ministry) https://www.italiaatavola.net/alimenti/dolci-e-gelato/2017/8/7/tiramisu-friuli-venezia-giulia-ministero-riconosce-due-varianti/51344/ - https://www.repubblica.it/sapori/2017/08/05/news/tiramisu_il_friuli_vince_il_rush_finale_sul_veneto_e_suo_il_dolce_traditional-172437819/ - (from "Repubblica" magazine) https://www.repubblica.it/sapori/2020/03/20/news/21_marzo_e_il_tiramisu_day-251535638/

so I ask you to modify the sentence with that form: "Most accounts of the origin of tiramisu date its invention to the 1950s in the region of Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy, in the mountain areas between Udine and Gorizia"

 * Perhaps you may want to take a look at this given your involvement in food origins. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:02, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. I don't think there's any way to determine whether "most accounts" give a certain story. Moreover, many of the given sources are not neutral, third-party sources. A restaurant claims to have invented it -- clearly not third-party or neutral. A regional newspaper claims it for its own region -- not neutral. Unless we can find better sources, the History section needs to remain skeptical about all claims. As for the "acknowledgment from the Italian ministry", that sort of promotion of supposedly regional specialties isn't terribly meaningful either. The history section could be rewritten to be more skeptical of its sources and more neutral in evaluating them, but for now, I've just change the first few words. --Macrakis (talk) 16:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * PS I find it ridiculous that a recipe which is only documented back to the 1970s, and which appears to be a restaurant invention, and not coming from local tradition, is being called "traditional", which completely devalues that concept. That said, I see a lot of articles on Wikipedia calling dishes traditional without any evidence that they emerged from some tradition.... --Macrakis (talk) 16:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Inventors - chef and wife of owner
This BBC article attributes the invention to "Chef Roberto Linguanotto" and the wife of the owner of Alle Beccherie. Starple (talk) 11:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

 * One BBC article really isn't definitive... --Macrakis (talk) 23:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * No, but it's repeated in multiple sources -, , , , etc., including Italian sources - , , etc. etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:53, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Those articles are almost identical, with the same anecdotes and the same quotes from the same people, so aren't really multiple sources.
 * Still, some of them do mention other claims. The Corriere della Sera mentions that Campeol "vigorously contested" the claim of the "Roma" restaurant in Tolmezzo; i.e. there is another claim. The Telegraph article mentions that the Padovanis found evidence of the dish already existing in the 1950s. What does seem to be agreed on is that the dish was made famous by Campeol.
 * It is a bit shocking that this article doesn't include anything from the Padovanis' research and book! The Italian article is much more complete. If I find some time, I'll work on this article. In any case, the Campeol story is just one of several. --Macrakis (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2021
Aldo Campeol .. not Ado Campeol 2A01:CB1D:6DD:4300:984C:4CD8:E08C:FEB4 (talk) 20:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 20:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * and....  ❌.  The restaurant's official Facebook account here uses "Ado".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

"Father of Tiramisu"
Can anyone find the phrase "father of tiramisu" used to describe Campeol from before his death?

The phrase "father of tiramisu" or "papà del tiramisu" has been repeated in the recent obituaries of Ado Campeol. As I mentioned above, all these obituaries sound like they originally come from the same source. In any case, I haven't been able to find instances of the phrase in English or in Italian referring to Campeol earlier than the obituaries. I did find a recipe published in 2013 which calls Roberto Linguanotto (not Ado Campeol) the "father of tiramisu" and refers to Linguanotto's web site, tiramesu.it (the dessert was originally called Tiramesù). Linguanotto's site is no longer live, but the archived copy does not call him the father of tiramisu.

Is this "father of tiramisu" pure invention by some newspaper writer in Treviso (or the restaurant's publicist)? --Macrakis (talk) 18:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Missing link on coffee
Can someone add a link on "coffee" in the infobox? The page is semi-protected so I can't add it. 209.237.105.194 (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Three words: "Tara" "Me" "Sue"
There are three words "Tara" "Me" "Sue". 24.148.76.83 (talk) 03:41, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Google translate lists the Italian for "pick me up" as "tirami su".--Srleffler (talk) 17:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

"True Tiramisu"
the whole statement about "these are not considered true Tiramisu" is unsourced and silly, especially when it then says these desserts more closely resemble trifle.

Unless we have some authority that can be cited then the statement should be removed, as they no more resemble a trifle than a tiramisu (in being a layered dessert), as applying the same sort of strict definitions on trifles leads to them requiring ladyfingers (soaked in sherry), fruit (fresh or in jelly), custard, then cream, in that order and any dessert not fitting that should surely just be "another layered dessert". 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:39E0:6A95:A253:18CE (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I removed: "These, however, are not considered true Tiramisu as these variations only share the layered characteristic of Tiramisu; these examples more closely resemble variations of trifle." Expressions of opinion always require a source; Wikipedia does not express opinion in its own voice.--Srleffler (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I note, though, that the article mentions an application for European Union Protected Status, which if granted would create an official definition for what could be called tiramisu, at least in Europe. The article does not say whether that status was granted.--Srleffler (talk) 15:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

"Expand Italian" and "Refimprove" templates
I propose the removal of the "Expand Italian" template and the addition of the "Refimprove" template; number of bytes of the Italian language Wikipedia page: 25,386 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiramis%C3%B9), only 5,000 more (en.wiki: 20,209; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiramisu). As for references, it.wiki: 52 (while en.wiki: 37). JacktheBrown (talk) 11:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I removed the expand Italian template. I do not think refimprove is appropriate here. At a quick glance, the article appears to have a satisfactory number of references for the amount of text. More is always better, of course, but the refimprove tag should be reserved for articles that are significantly deficient in references.--Srleffler (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tiramisu


text:
Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education

Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education, 402 U.S. 1 (1971), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case dealing with the busing of students to promote integration in public schools. The Court held that busing was an appropriate remedy for the problem of racial imbalance in schools, even when the imbalance resulted from the selection of students based on geographic proximity to the school rather than from deliberate assignment based on race. This was done to ensure the schools would be "properly" integrated and that all students would receive equal educational opportunities regardless of their race.

Judge John J. Parker of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit interpreted the Brown v. Board of Education case as a charge not to segregate rather than an order to integrate. In 1963, the Court ruled in McNeese v. Board of Education and Goss v. Board of Education in favor of integration, and showed impatience with efforts to end segregation. In 1968 the Warren Court ruled in Green v. County School Board that freedom of choice plans were insufficient to eliminate segregation; thus, it was necessary to take proactive steps to integrate schools. In United States v. Montgomery County Board of Education (1969), Judge Frank Johnson's desegregation order for teachers was upheld, allowing an approximate ratio of the races to be established by a district judge.

Background
North Carolina was one of the more moderate Southern states, and its resistance to integration was much weaker than in most other areas of the South. After Brown, it had ended segregation with a school assignment plan based on neighborhoods that was approved by the Court. However, when Charlotte consolidated school districts from the city itself with a surrounding area totaling 550 sqmi, the majority of black students (who lived in central Charlotte) still attended mostly black schools as compared with majority white schools further outside the city.

Legal proceedings
The NAACP Legal Defense Fund brought the Swann case on behalf of six-year-old James Swann and nine other families, with Julius L. Chambers presenting the case. Swann was chosen because his father was a theology professor, and was thus unlikely to be economically burdened by local retaliation.

In 1965, Judge J. Braxton Craven decided Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education in favor of Charlotte-Mecklenburg, because there was no requirement in the Constitution to act purposely to increase racial mixing.

After the Green ruling, the Swann case was filed again, and this time taken by Judge James Bryan McMillan as his first important case on the federal bench. McMillan had at one point been a public opponent of busing to integrate schools, but when the case was presented to him he said that the facts outweighed his feelings, and busing was the only way to fulfill the constitutional requirement of desegregation.

Experts from Rhode Island College were brought in for the Plaintiff's side to judge the effectiveness of the school board's new plan. From April to November 1969, McMillan repeatedly ordered the board to revise the plan. The Board eventually submitted a plan rezoning neighborhoods into pie-shaped wedges, where blacks living in the center of Charlotte would be divided up and distributed to outlying, formerly white high schools. The school board's plan required busing and would achieve a black population of 2-36% in all ten of the high schools. Due to the greater number of elementary schools, elaborate gerrymandering was required and would achieve greater integration, but would leave more than half of black elementary students at majority-black schools.

The Court rejected the Board's plan in favor of outsider Dr. John Finger's plan. The Finger Plan required busing of an additional 300 black students, established "satellite zones" and required pairing and grouping techniques to achieve even greater integration. As a consequence, McMillan became a local pariah. Chambers' home, office and car were bombed when he first took up the case.

When the case was appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, the case was heard en banc by six of the seven judges sitting on the court. The seventh judge Judge J. Braxton Craven, recused himself due to him being the original trial court judge. The opinion was 3-2-1 that the restructured busing orders should be affirmed for older students, but that it be remanded for those of elementary school age. Two dissenters would have affirmed the whole decision, while one would reverse McMillan's ruling in its entirety. McMillan decided to follow his original plan for elementary school students after the case was remanded to him.

Swann before the Supreme Court
Justice Douglas had previously been strongly opposed to busing. The Court was urged to begin their term early to hear the case, but decided to wait until the first day of their new term to begin.

Despite his relative youth and inexperience, Julius Chambers argued the case, because of his intimate knowledge of the facts involved. Erwin Griswold, the Solicitor General of the United States, represented the federal government, advocating Nixon's “go-slow” policy. Though no official vote was taken, Chief Justice Burger and Justice Black wanted to reverse McMillan's order, while Justices Douglas, Harlan, Brennan, and Marshall wanted a strong affirmation of the order; Justices Stewart, White, and Blackmun did not express a strong feeling either way. Douglas, Brennan, and Marshall were quite liberal, but Harlan was usually conservative. When Burger circulated his very grudging affirmation of McMillan that limited future action and action in other areas by the Court, he met strong resistance. Douglas, Harlan, Brennan, and Marshall all demanded revisions and circulated suggestions for alternate drafts. Justice Stewart also reacted strongly after carefully considering the facts of the case, and wrote a “dissent” that would have been the opinion of the court without revisions of Burger's drafts.

Burger revised the opinion five times, each time making a stronger affirmation of McMillan and incorporating the language of Harlan, Brennan, Stewart, and others into it. After the fifth draft, Justice Black threatened a dissent if the opinion was made any stronger an affirmation, and so a sixth and final draft was created that was close to what Justice Stewart had composed after the first conference. The final opinion was 9-0 affirming McMillan's order.

The decision led to the widespread use of busing to end segregation by federal judges in the South.

Timeline of the case being overturned
When the courts mandated that busing should occur to desegregate the schools, they also noted that one day when the school system was thought to be unitary, busing would end and the school board would be able to come up with a new plan which would best suit the education of students in Charlotte-Mecklenburg.

After busing was enforced in 1971, throughout the 1970s and the 1980s, Charlotte was known across the nation as the “city that made desegregation work.” It paved the way for many different school systems to use the busing plan to force integration in the school systems.

However, due to the booming economy of the city in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Charlotte experienced a rapid immigration from the Northeast and the Midwest, which resulted in a decline of the acceptance of busing. In 1992, in response to these complaints, CMS created a managed choice plan to reduce the number of students being bused. This new choice plan revolved around magnet schools, making one-third of the schools in Charlotte-Mecklenburg either magnets or partial magnets, and each magnet had a quota of black and white students that were allowed to attend. But this didn't please many white families who were denied entrance into magnet schools that had fulfilled their quotas.

In 1997, a parent, William Capacchione, sued the school system when his daughter was denied entrance into a magnet school for the second time based on her race. While the school system opposed the end of busing, Judge Robert D. Potter declared the mandate of a unitary system had been met and lifted the court order on mandatory busing by race or ethnicity. This ruling was upheld by the appeals court in Richmond, Virginia in 2000 and after the final appeal was declined to be heard by the U.S. Supreme Court, federal order of busing was ended in Charlotte-Mecklenburg and it was left in the hands of the city school board to decide how to redo the assignment policy for school attendance.

The new assignment policy which was adopted in the fall of 2002 was known as the “School Choice Plan.” This new choice plan divided the city into four large attendance zones based on neighborhoods. Students were allowed to choose to stay at their neighborhood "home school," or they could rank their top three choices of any other school in CMS; however they would only receive free transportation to their home school or any of the magnet schools in the district. If families chose their home school as their first choice, they were guaranteed that school; otherwise they were entered into a lottery that gave available spaces in overenrolled schools. If people did not choose a school, they were immediately placed into their home school. After creating a variety of programs to inform families about the new plan, over 95% of the families in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school system submitted choices for the new school year.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Interstate Commerce Commission

Soop Dogg
I am not sure how this wiki software works so I will ask that someone else do this. Someone vandelised the article (reference to Soop Dogg). Can someone fix this? Thank You

Is this the united states or what?
This article needs more details, more history, etc. A transportation economist would be helpful.

"Is this the united states or what?" - yes. I also agree that the article needs more detail. What really irks me, is that there is no page for the act that created it. I dont really care too much about the commission itself, but the act and the events that precluded its creation, IE the big "Trusts" of the guilded age and public pressure to regulate them, and how that affected congress members. uberblue 03:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Can links to the important acts that involved the ICC be included in this article -- for example, the Hepburn Act? I believe they were important in giving the ICC its powers. (There may be some mentioned already. I just did not see Hepburn, so I apologize if I am overlooking). Otherwise, a great article! Cheers. Jakswa 00:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely more information is needed about the background. As Gabriel Kolko has documented in Railroads and Regulation, 1877-1916, the railroads had been lobbying for such an act for years before it was finally passed, and then continued to lobby to get changes made in their favor. The result was that the ICC had the authority to set both minimum as well as maximum rates. I agree that acts such as Hepburn ought to be included in the overall project, with perhaps a synopsis on this page and a separate page of their own. Ehusman 02:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it would be really great to include (in a straightforward way) the Acts following the ICA that changed the scope and powers of the ICC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.15.30.1 (talk) 11:28, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

I would agree, the article seems very biased that this was to suppress prices. However, it does briefly and primarily reference banning rebates, ie, lowering of rates. This would seem to be purpose of all federal legislation to ban competiting industries from the larger players who are less competitive. Why would they ban lowering of prices as their primary act? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.44.158 (talk) 02:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Citation error in Interstate Commerce Commission wikipedia entry
Hello --

The link for one of the cases cited in the Interstate Commerce Commission article, Mitchell v. US, takes the reader to the wrong case. The correct citation is 313 US 80 (1941).

Cheers,

138.238.107.141 (talk) 19:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Jay

image
There is a nice image at http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/3239317542/

If anyone can determine if it was published before 1923 (which is my hunch), then we could use it here. Kingturtle (talk) 12:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

sponsor was Shelby Cullom of Illinois
Information is available in national archive of its establishment under the chair Senator Cullom http://www.archives.gov/legislative/guide/senate/chapter-07-interstate-commerce.html Mulp (talk) 08:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Source of Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't corperate lawyer Richard Olney point out that, not the Attorney General of the time period? If someone could factcheck this.... 74.68.98.203 (talk) 03:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Misleading paragraphs removed
I've removed the following paragraphs from the "Creation" section:

Equally significant, the Elkins Act required that rates be published. Eventually, when this piece of (economic) anti-discrimination legislation was constitutionally challenged, the United States Supreme Court ruled it to be constitutional. And significantly (for the future of anti-discrimination legal challenges), the Court founded its ruling upon the existence of the then-new 14th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution, and its equal protection clause.

In the Supreme Court's view, the U. S. Congress through legislation could outlaw an act of (economic) discrimination against an individual or corporation if the act of discrimination constituted for the affected person(s) a failure by the discriminator to afford the affected person(s) the equal application (protection) of the rules or laws.

Two main problems here: first, the citation leads the reader to the Munn v. Illinois case, which the Supreme Court decided in 1876 - eleven years before the ICC was created. The paragraph makes it sound like this case happened after the ICC came into being.

Second, the citation makes no sense because the sentence is discussing the Elkins Act, which was passed by Congress in 1903. The Fourteenth Amendment, also referred to, was adopted in 1868. So this information is all jumbled up and incorrect as written. I'm posting it here for future reference in case another editor wants to try straightening things out. Textorus (talk) 07:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Inappropriate references in article
The article now says "The Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) was a regulatory agency in the United States created by the pornstars of america", "i have to pee" and "dominic has ebola." Some of the original content was deleted. Not sure how to edit the article, but thought I would bring it up here in case anyone else knows how to fix it.

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from:. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Mackensen (talk) 18:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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New para re:ICC's commitment of E Moody Boynton to a lunatic asylum--in correct place?
Hello--I added a paragraph under the heading "Criticism" to describe the story of the ICC's 3-month commitment of E Moody Boynton, inventor of a  potential new entrant RR system, to a lunatic asylum. Not sure this is in the right spot in the article or it deserves better transition or the heading should be expanded a bit. Thanks Riverbend Trail (talk) 20:25, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Interstate Commerce Commission


text:
Satyagraha

Satyāgraha (सत्याग्रह; satya: "truth", āgraha: "insistence" or "holding firmly to"), or "holding firmly to truth",  or "truth force", is a particular form of nonviolent resistance or civil resistance. Someone who practises satyagraha is a satyagrahi.

The term satyagraha was coined and developed by Mahatma Gandhi (1869–1948), who practised satyagraha in the Indian independence movement and also during his earlier struggles in South Africa for Indian rights. Satyagraha theory influenced Martin Luther King Jr.'s and James Bevel's campaigns during the Civil Rights Movement in the United States, as well as Nelson Mandela's struggle against apartheid in South Africa and many other social justice and similar movements.

Principles
Gandhi envisioned satyagraha as not only a tactic to be used in acute political struggle but as a universal solvent for injustice and harm.

He founded the Sabarmati Ashram to teach ''satyagraha. He asked satyagrahis'' to follow the following principles
 * 1) Nonviolence (ahimsa)
 * 2) Truth – this includes honesty, but goes beyond it to mean living fully in accord with and in devotion to that which is true
 * 3) Not stealing
 * 4) Non-possession (not the same as poverty)
 * 5) Body-labour or bread-labour
 * 6) Control of desires (gluttony)
 * 7) Fearlessness
 * 8) Equal respect for all religions
 * 9) Economic strategy such as boycotts of imported goods (swadeshi)

On another occasion, he listed these rules as "essential for every Satyagrahi in India":
 * 1) Must have a living faith in God
 * 2) Must be leading a chaste life and be willing to die or lose all his possessions
 * 3) Must be a habitual khadi weaver and spinner
 * 4) Must abstain from alcohol and other intoxicants

Rules for satyagraha campaigns
Gandhi proposed a series of rules for satyagrahis to follow in a resistance campaign:
 * 1) Harbour no anger.
 * 2) Suffer the anger of the opponent.
 * 3) Never retaliate to assaults or punishment, but do not submit, out of fear of punishment or assault, to an order given in anger.
 * 4) Voluntarily submit to arrest or confiscation of your own property.
 * 5) If you are a trustee of property, defend that property (non-violently) from confiscation with your life.
 * 6) Do not curse or swear.
 * 7) Do not insult the opponent.
 * 8) Neither salute nor insult the flag of your opponent or your opponent's leaders.
 * 9) If anyone attempts to insult or assault your opponent, defend your opponent (non-violently) with your life.
 * 10) As a prisoner, behave courteously and obey prison regulations (except any that are contrary to self-respect).
 * 11) As a prisoner, do not ask for special favourable treatment.
 * 12) As a prisoner, do not fast in an attempt to gain conveniences whose deprivation does not involve any injury to your self-respect.
 * 13) Joyfully obey the orders of the leaders of the civil disobedience action.

Origin and meaning of name
The terms originated in a competition in the news-sheet Indian Opinion in South Africa in 1906. Mr. Maganlal Gandhi, grandson of an uncle of Mahatma Gandhi, came up with the word "Sadagraha" and won the prize. Subsequently, to make it clearer, Gandhi changed it to Satyagraha. "Satyagraha" is a tatpuruṣa compound of the Sanskrit words satya (meaning "truth") and āgraha ("polite insistence", or "holding firmly to"). Satya is derived from the word "sat", which means "being". Nothing is or exists in reality except Truth. In the context of satyagraha, Truth, therefore, includes a) Truth in speech, as opposed to falsehood, b) knowledge of what is real, as opposed to nonexistent (asat), and c) good as opposed to evil or bad. This was critical to Gandhi's understanding of and faith in nonviolence: "The world rests upon the bedrock of satya or truth. Asatya, meaning untruth, also means nonexistent, and satya or truth, also means that which is. If untruth does not so much as exist, its victory is out of the question. And truth being that which is, can never be destroyed. This is the doctrine of satyagraha in a nutshell." For Gandhi, satyagraha went far beyond mere "passive resistance" and became strength in practising non-violent methods. In his words: "Truth (satya) implies love, and firmness (agraha) engenders and therefore serves as a synonym for force. I thus began to call the Indian movement Satyagraha, that is to say, the Force which is born of Truth and Love or non-violence, and gave up the use of the phrase "passive resistance", in connection with it, so much so that even in English writing we often avoided it and used instead the word "satyagraha" itself or some other equivalent English phrase."

In September 1935, in a letter to P. Kodanda Rao, Servants of India Society, Gandhi disputed the proposition that his idea of civil disobedience was adapted from the writings of Henry David Thoreau, especially the essay Civil Disobedience published in 1849. "The statement that I had derived my idea of civil disobedience from the writings of Thoreau is wrong. The resistance to authority in South Africa was well advanced before I got the essay of Thoreau on civil disobedience. But the movement was then known as passive resistance. As it was incomplete, I had coined the word satyagraha for the Gujarati readers. When I saw the title of Thoreau’s great essay, I began the use of his phrase to explain our struggle to the English readers. But I found that even civil disobedience failed to convey the full meaning of the struggle. I therefore adopted the phrase civil resistance. Non-violence was always an integral part of our struggle.""

Gandhi described it as follows:

"Its root meaning is holding on to truth, hence truth-force. I have also called it love-force or soul-force. In the application of satyagraha, I discovered in the earliest stages that pursuit of truth did not admit of violence being inflicted on one’s opponent but that he must be weaned from error by patience and compassion. For what appears to be truth to the one may appear to be error to the other. And patience means self-suffering. So the doctrine came to mean vindication of truth, not by infliction of suffering on the opponent, but on oneself."

Contrast to "passive resistance"
Gandhi distinguished between satyagraha and passive resistance in the following letter: "I have drawn the distinction between passive resistance as understood and practised in the West and satyagraha before I had evolved the doctrine of the latter to its full logical and spiritual extent. I often used “passive resistance” and “satyagraha” as synonymous terms: but as the doctrine of satyagraha developed, the expression “passive resistance” ceases even to be synonymous, as passive resistance has admitted of violence as in the case of the suffragettes and has been universally acknowledged to be a weapon of the weak. Moreover, passive resistance does not necessarily involve complete adherence to truth under every circumstance. Therefore it is different from satyagraha in three essentials: Satyagraha is a weapon of the strong; it admits of no violence under any circumstance whatsoever; and it ever insists upon truth."

Ahimsa and satyagraha
There is a connection between ahimsa and satyagraha. Satyagraha is sometimes used to refer to the whole principle of nonviolence, where it is essentially the same as ahimsa, and sometimes used in a "marked" meaning to refer specifically to direct action that is largely obstructive, for example in the form of civil disobedience.

Gandhi says: "It is perhaps clear from the foregoing, that without ahimsa it is not possible to seek and find Truth. Ahimsa and Truth are so intertwined that it is practically impossible to disentangle and separate them. They are like the two sides of a coin, or rather of a smooth unstamped metallic disk. Nevertheless, ahimsa is the means; Truth is the end. Means to be means must always be within our reach, and so ahimsa is our supreme duty."

Defining success
Assessing the extent to which Gandhi's ideas of satyagraha were or were not successful in the Indian independence struggle is a complex task. Judith Brown has suggested that "this is a political strategy and technique which, for its outcomes, depends greatly on historical specificities." The view taken by Gandhi differs from the idea that the goal in any conflict is necessarily to defeat the opponent or frustrate the opponent's objectives, or to meet one's own objectives despite the efforts of the opponent to obstruct these. In satyagraha, by contrast, "The Satyagrahi's object is to convert, not to coerce, the wrong-doer." The opponent must be converted, at least as far as to stop obstructing the just end, for this cooperation to take place. There are cases, to be sure, when an opponent, e.g. a dictator, has to be unseated and one cannot wait to convert him. The satyagrahi would count this a partial success.

Means and ends
The theory of satyagraha sees means and ends as inseparable obtain an end are wrapped up in and attached to that end. Therefore, it is contradictory to try to use unjust means to obtain justice or to try to use violence to obtain peace. As Gandhi wrote: "They say, 'means are, after all, means'. I would say, 'means are, after all, everything'. As the means so the end. Separating means and ends would ultimately amount to introducing a form of duality and inconsistency at the core of Gandhi's non-dual (Advaitic) conception.

Gandhi used an example to explain this: "If I want to deprive you of your watch, I shall certainly have to fight for it; if I want to buy your watch, I shall have to pay for it; and if I want a gift, I shall have to plead for it; and, according to the means I employ, the watch is stolen property, my own property, or a donation." Gandhi rejected the idea that injustice should, or even could, be fought against "by any means necessary"—if you use violent, coercive, unjust means, whatever ends you produce will necessarily embed that injustice. However, in the same book Gandhi admits that even though his book argues that machinery is bad, it was produced by machinery, which he says can do nothing good. Thus, he says, "sometimes poison is used to kill poison" and for that reason as long as machinery is viewed as bad it can be used to undo itself.

Satyagraha versus duragraha
The essence of satyagraha is that it seeks to eliminate antagonisms without harming the antagonists themselves, as opposed to violent resistance, which is meant to cause harm to the antagonist. A satyagrahi therefore does not seek to end or destroy the relationship with the antagonist, but instead seeks to transform or "purify" it to a higher level. A euphemism sometimes used for satyagraha is that it is a "silent force" or a "soul force" (a term also used by Martin Luther King Jr. during his famous "I Have a Dream" speech). It arms the individual with moral power rather than physical power. Satyagraha is also termed a "universal force," as it essentially "makes no distinction between kinsmen and strangers, young and old, man and woman, friend and foe."

Gandhi contrasted satyagraha (holding on to truth) with "duragraha" (holding on by force), as in protest meant more to harass than enlighten opponents. He wrote: "There must be no impatience, no barbarity, no insolence, no undue pressure. If we want to cultivate a true spirit of democracy, we cannot afford to be intolerant. Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause."

Civil disobedience and non-cooperation as practised under satyagraha are based on the "law of suffering", a doctrine that the endurance of suffering is a means to an end. This end usually implies a moral uplift or progress of an individual or society. Therefore, the non-cooperation of satyagraha is in fact a means to secure the cooperation of the opponent that is consistent with truth and justice.

Large-scale usage of satyagraha
When using satyagraha in a large-scale political conflict involving civil disobedience, Gandhi believed that the satyagrahis must undergo training to ensure discipline. He wrote that it is "only when people have proved their active loyalty by obeying the many laws of the State that they acquire the right of Civil Disobedience."

He therefore made part of the discipline that satyagrahis:
 * 1) Appreciate the other laws of the State and obey them voluntarily
 * 2) Tolerate these laws, even when they are inconvenient
 * 3) Be willing to undergo suffering, loss of property, and to endure the suffering that might be inflicted on family and friends

This obedience has to be not merely grudging but extraordinary: "...an honest, respectable man will not suddenly take to stealing whether there is a law against stealing or not, but this very man will not feel any remorse for failure to observe the rule about carrying headlights on bicycles after dark.... But he would observe any obligatory rule of this kind, if only to escape the inconvenience of facing a prosecution for a breach of the rule. Such compliance is not, however, the willing and spontaneous obedience that is required of a Satyagrahi."

American Civil Rights Movement
Satyagraha theory also influenced many other movements of nonviolence and civil resistance. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. wrote about Gandhi's influence on his developing ideas regarding the Civil Rights Movement in the United States:

"Like most people, I had heard of Gandhi, but I had never studied him seriously. As I read I became deeply fascinated by his campaigns of nonviolent resistance. I was particularly moved by his Salt March to the Sea and his numerous fasts. The whole concept of Satyagraha (Satya is truth which equals love, and agraha is force; Satyagraha, therefore, means truth force or love force) was profoundly significant to me. As I delved deeper into the philosophy of Gandhi, my skepticism concerning the power of love gradually diminished, and I came to see for the first time its potency in the area of social reform. ... It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and nonviolence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been seeking."

Satyagraha in relation to genocide
In view of the Nazi persecution of the Jews in Germany, Gandhi offered satyagraha as a method of combating oppression and genocide, stating:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest Gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my example. If one Jew or all the Jews were to accept the prescription here offered, he or they cannot be worse off than now. And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy [...] the calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the God-fearing, death has no terror."

When Gandhi was criticized for these statements, he responded in another article entitled "Some Questions Answered":

"Friends have sent me two newspaper cuttings criticizing my appeal to the Jews. The two critics suggest that in presenting non-violence to the Jews as a remedy against the wrong done to them, I have suggested nothing new... What I have pleaded for is renunciation of violence of the heart and consequent active exercise of the force generated by the great renunciation.”"

In a similar vein, anticipating a possible attack on India by Japan during World War II, Gandhi recommended satyagraha as a means of national defense (what is now sometimes called "Civilian Based Defense" (CBD) or "social defence"):

"...there should be unadulterated non-violent non-cooperation, and if the whole of India responded and unanimously offered it, I should show that, without shedding a single drop of blood, Japanese arms—or any combination of arms—can be sterilized. That involves the determination of India not to give quarter on any point whatsoever and to be ready to risk loss of several million lives. But I would consider that cost very cheap and victory won at that cost glorious. That India may not be ready to pay that price may be true. I hope it is not true, but some such price must be paid by any country that wants to retain its independence. After all, the sacrifice made by the Russians and the Chinese is enormous, and they are ready to risk all. The same could be said of the other countries also, whether aggressors or defenders. The cost is enormous. Therefore, in the non-violent technique I am asking India to risk no more than other countries are risking and which India would have to risk even if she offered armed resistance."

title: Satyagraha


text:
Alfred de Musset

Alfred Louis Charles de Musset-Pathay (11 December 1810 – 2 May 1857) was a French dramatist, poet, and novelist. Along with his poetry, he is known for writing the autobiographical novel La Confession d'un enfant du siècle (The Confession of a Child of the Century).

Biography
Musset was born in Paris. His family was upper-class but poor; his father worked in various key government positions, but never gave his son any money. Musset's mother came from similar circumstances, and her role as a society hostess – for example her drawing-room parties, luncheons and dinners held in the Musset residence – left a lasting impression on young Alfred.

An early indication of his boyhood talents was his fondness for acting impromptu mini-plays based upon episodes from old romance stories he had read. Years later, elder brother Paul de Musset would preserve these and many other details, for posterity, in a biography of his famous younger brother.

Alfred de Musset entered the lycée Henri-IV at the age of nine, where in 1827 he won the Latin essay prize in the Concours général at age 17. With the help of Paul Foucher, Victor Hugo's brother-in-law, he began to attend, at the age of 17, the Cénacle, the literary salon of Charles Nodier at the Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal. After attempts at careers in medicine (which he gave up owing to a distaste for dissections), law, drawing, English and piano, he became one of the first Romantic writers, with his first collection of poems, Contes d'Espagne et d'Italie (1829, Tales of Spain and Italy). By the time he reached the age of 20, his rising literary fame was already accompanied by a sulphurous reputation fed by his dandy side.

He was the librarian of the French Ministry of the Interior under the July Monarchy. His politics were of a liberal stamp, and he was on good terms with the family of King Louis Philippe. During this time he also involved himself in polemics during the Rhine crisis of 1840, caused by the French prime minister Adolphe Thiers, who as Minister of the Interior had been Musset's superior. Thiers had demanded that France should own the left bank of the Rhine (described as France's "natural boundary"), as it had under Napoleon, despite the territory's German population. These demands were rejected by German songs and poems, including Nikolaus Becker's Rheinlied, which contained the verse: "Sie sollen ihn nicht haben, den freien, deutschen Rhein ..." (They shall not have it, the free, German Rhine). Musset answered to this with a poem of his own: "Nous l'avons eu, votre Rhin allemand" (We've had it, your German Rhine).

The tale of his celebrated love affair with George Sand in 1833–1835 is told from his point of view in his autobiographical novel La Confession d'un Enfant du Siècle (The Confession of a Child of the Century) (1836), which was made into a 1999 film, Children of the Century, and a 2012 film, Confession of a Child of the Century, and is told from her point of view in her Elle et lui (1859). Musset's Nuits (Nights) (1835–1837) traces the emotional upheaval of his love for Sand from early despair to final resignation. He is also believed to be the anonymous author of Gamiani, or Two Nights of Excess (1833), a lesbian erotic novel also believed to be modeled on Sand.

Outside of his relationship with Sand he was a well-known figure in brothels, and is widely accepted to be the anonymous author-client who beat and humiliated the author and courtesan Céleste de Chabrillan, also known as La Mogador.

Musset was dismissed from his post as librarian by the new minister Ledru-Rollin after the revolution of 1848. He was, however, appointed librarian of the Ministry of Public Instruction in 1853.

On 24 April 1845, Musset received the Légion d'honneur at the same time as Balzac, and was elected to the Académie Française in 1852 after two failed attempts in 1848 and 1850.

Alfred de Musset died in his sleep in Paris in 1857. The cause was heart failure, the combination of alcoholism and a longstanding aortic insufficiency. One symptom that had been noticed by his brother was a bobbing of the head as a result of the amplification of the pulse; this was later called de Musset's sign. He was buried in Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris.

Reception
The French poet Arthur Rimbaud was highly critical of Musset's work. Rimbaud wrote in his Letters of a Seer (Lettres du Voyant) that Musset did not accomplish anything because he "closed his eyes" before the visions (letter to Paul Demeny, May 1871).

Director Jean Renoir's La règle du jeu (The Rules of the Game) was inspired by Musset's play Les Caprices de Marianne.

Henri Gervex's 1878 painting Rolla was based on a poem by De Musset. It was rejected by the jury of the Salon de Paris for immorality, since it features suggestive metaphors in a scene from the poem, with a naked prostitute shown after having sex with her client, but the controversy helped Gervex's career.

Jean Anouilh's Eurydice (1941) employs an intertextually salient quote of Musset's play On ne badine pas avec l'amour II.5 (1834), "The Tirade of Perdican" — Vincent and Eurydice's Mother rekindle the glorious days of their earlier acting careers and their own amours, when once his on-stage performance of Perdican's tirade instigated their first dressing-room love scene.

Music
Numerous (often French) composers wrote works using Musset's poetry during the 19th and early 20th century.

 * Opera

Georges Bizet's opera Djamileh (1871, with a libretto by Louis Gallet) is based on Musset's story Namouna. In 1872 Offenbach composed an opéra comique Fantasio with a libretto by Paul de Musset closely based on the 1834 play of the same name by his brother Alfred. Dame Ethel Smyth composed an opera based on the same work, that premiered in Weimar in 1898. The play La Coupe et les lèvres was the basis of Giacomo Puccini's opera Edgar (1889). Fortunio, a four-act opera by André Messager is based on Musset's 1835 comedy Le Chandelier.The libretto of Mary Rosselli Nissim’s opera Andrea del Sarto (1931) was by Antonio Lega based on writings by Musset. Les caprices de Marianne, a two-act opéra comique by Henri Sauguet (1954) is based on the play by Musset. The opera Andrea del Sarto (1968) by French composer Daniel-Lesur was based on Musset's play André del Sarto. Lorenzaccio, which takes place in Medici's Florence, was set to music by the musician Sylvano Bussotti in 1972.

 * Song

Bizet set Musset's poems "À une fleur" and "Adieux à Suzon" for voice and piano in 1866; the latter had previously been set by Chabrier in 1862. Pauline Viardot set Musset's poem "Madrid" for voice and piano as part of her 6 Mélodies (1884). The Welsh composer Morfydd Llwyn Owen wrote song settings for Musset's "La Tristesse" and "Chanson de Fortunio". Lili Boulanger's Pour les funérailles d'un soldat for baritone, mixed chorus and orchestra is a setting of several lines from Act IV of Musset's play La Coupe et les lèvres.

 * Instrumental music

Ruggero Leoncavallo's symphonic poem La Nuit de Mai (1886) was based on Musset's poetry. Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Cielo di settembre, op. 1 for solo piano (1910) takes its name from a line of Musset's poem "A quoi rêvent les jeunes filles". The score, in the original publication, is preceded by that line, "Mais vois donc quel beau ciel de septembre…" Rebecca Clarke's Viola Sonata (1919) is prefaced by two lines from Musset's La Nuit de Mai.

 * Other

Shane Briant played Alfred de Musset in one episode of a 1974 TV drama series, Notorious Woman.

In 2007, Céline Dion recorded a song called "Lettre de George Sand à Alfred de Musset" for her album D'elles.

Quotations

 * "How glorious it is – and also how painful – to be an exception."
 * "Man is a pupil, pain is his teacher."
 * "Verity is nudity."

Poetry

 * À Mademoiselle Zoé le Douairin (1826)
 * Un rêve (1828)
 * Contes d'Espagne et d'Italie (1830)
 * La Quittance du diable (1830)
 * La Coupe et les lèvres (1831)
 * Namouna (1831)
 * Rolla (1833)
 * Perdican (1834)
 * Camille et Rosette (1834)
 * L'Espoir en Dieu (1838)
 * La Nuit de mai (1835)
 * La Nuit de décembre (1835)
 * La Nuit d'août (1836)
 * La Nuit d'octobre (1837)
 * La Nuit d'avril (1838)
 * Chanson de Barberine (1836)
 * À la Malibran (1837)
 * Tristesse (1840)
 * Une Soirée perdue (1840)
 * Souvenir (1841)
 * Le Voyage où il vous plaira (1842)
 * Sur la paresse (1842)
 * Après une lecture (1842)
 * Les Filles de Loth (1849)
 * Carmosine (1850)
 * Bettine (1851)
 * Faustine (1851)
 * Œuvres posthumes (1860)

Plays

 * La Quittance du diable (1830)
 * La Nuit vénitienne (1830)
 * a failure; from this time until 1847, his plays were published but not performed
 * La Coupe et les lèvres (1831)
 * À quoi rêvent les jeunes filles (1832)
 * André del Sarto (1833)
 * Les Caprices de Marianne (1833)
 * Lorenzaccio (1833)
 * Fantasio (1834)
 * On ne badine pas avec l'amour (1834)
 * La Quenouille de Barberine (1835)
 * Le Chandelier (1835)
 * Il ne faut jurer de rien (1836)
 * Faire sans dire (1836)
 * Un Caprice (1837)
 * first performed in 1847, and a huge success, leading to the performance of other plays
 * Il faut qu'une porte soit ouverte ou fermée (1845)
 * L'Habit vert (1849)
 * Louison (1849)
 * On ne saurait penser à tout (1849)
 * L'Âne et le Ruisseau (1855)

Novels

 * La Confession d'un enfant du siècle (The Confession of a Child of the Century, 1836)
 * Histoire d'un merle blanc (The White Blackbird, 1842)

Short stories and novellas

 * Emmeline (1837)
 * Le Fils du Titien (1838)
 * Frédéric et Bernerette (1838)
 * Margot (1838)
 * Croisilles (1839)
 * Les Deux Maîtresses (1840)
 * Histoire d'un merle blanc (1842)
 * Pierre et Camille (1844)
 * Le Secret de Javotte (1844)
 * Les Frères Van Buck (1844)
 * Mimi Pinson (1845)
 * La Mouche (1853)

In English translation

 * A Good Little Wife (1847)
 * Selections from the Prose and Poetry of Alfred de Musset (1870)
 * Tales from Alfred de Musset (1888)
 * The Beauty Spot (1888)
 * Old and New (1890)
 * The Confession of a Child of the Century (1892)
 * Barberine (1892)
 * The Complete Writings of Alfred de Musset (1907)
 * The Green Coat (1914)
 * Fantasio (1929)
 * Camille and Perdican (1961)
 * Historical Dramas (1997)
 * Lorenzaccio (1998)
 * Twelve Plays (2001)

Selected filmography

 * On ne badine pas avec l'amour, directed by Gaston Ravel and Tony Lekain (France, 1924, based on the play On ne badine pas avec l'amour)
 * Mimi Pinson, directed by Théo Bergerat (France, 1924, based on the poem Mimi Pinson)
 * Hon, den enda, directed by Gustaf Molander (Sweden, 1926, based on the play Il ne faut jurer de rien)
 * One Does Not Play with Love, directed by G. W. Pabst (Germany, 1926, based on the play On ne badine pas avec l'amour)
 * The Rules of the Game, directed by Jean Renoir (France, 1939, inspired by the play Les Caprices de Marianne)
 * Lorenzaccio, directed by Raffaello Pacini (Italy, 1951, based on the play Lorenzaccio)
 * Mimi Pinson, directed by Robert Darène (France, 1958, based on the poem Mimi Pinson)
 * No Trifling with Love, directed by Caroline Huppert (France, 1977, TV film, based on the play On ne badine pas avec l'amour)
 * La Confession d'un enfant du siècle (1974 film), directed by Claude Santelli (France, 1974, TV film, based on the novel Confession d'un enfant du siècle)
 * Le Chandelier (film), directed by Claude Santelli (France, 1977, TV film, based on the play Le Chandelier)
 * Il ne faut jurer de rien !, directed by Éric Civanyan (France, 2005, based on the play Il ne faut jurer de rien)
 * Confession of a Child of the Century, directed by Sylvie Verheyde (France, 2012, based on the novel Confession d'un enfant du siècle)
 * Two Friends, directed by Louis Garrel (France, 2015, loosely based on the play Les Caprices de Marianne)

Iconography
Musset is one of the five characters in the painting George Sand dans l'atelier de Delacroix avec Musset, Balzac et Chopin [George Sand in Delacroix's studio with Musset, Balzac and Chopin] made by Peruvian painter Herman Braun-Vega at the request of the Museums of Châteauroux, France, in 2004, for the bicentenary of George Sand's birth. In his commentary on the painting, Braun-Vega evokes the relationship between Musset and George Sand. The painting was exhibited for the first time in 2004-2005 at the Couvent des Cordeliers in Châteauroux, France.

title: Alfred de Musset


text:
John John Molina

Juan Molina (born March 17, 1965), better known as John John Molina in the world of boxing, is a former boxer whose career transcended boxing in Puerto Rico. A multiple time world champion, this boxer was also known as quite a socialite. Molina is a native of Fajardo, Puerto Rico.

Amateur career
Molina represented Puerto Rico as a Bantamweight at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games. His results were:
 * 1st round bye
 * Defeated Jarmo Eskelinen (Finland) 5-0
 * Lost to Pedro Nolasco (Dominican Republic) 2-3

Molina won the Boxing World Cup in Seoul, South Korea, November 1985, by knocking out Kelcie Banks in the finals. Upon returning to Puerto Rico, the 20-year-old youngster announced to Rafael Bracero on TV he would be ready to fight professional world Featherweight champion Victor Luvi Callejas within a year. That wasn't to happen, however.

Pro career
Molina started as a professional on February 25, 1986, beating Job Walters by a decision in four. His first three fights were decisions. He won his first 14 bouts, nine of them by knockout. Among the people he beat during that span was Victor Aponte, who was a stablemate of both Alberto Mercado and Juan Carazo. Aponte got knocked out by Molina in the 10th and final round. During this period of his career, Molina received much television exposure in Puerto Rico, many of his fights being shown on TV by producer and fight commentator Ivonne Class and her Video Deportes company.

Then, he faced Lupe Suarez, losing for the first time, when he was knocked out in the ninth round. Immediately after suffering his first loss, he embarked on a five-fight win streak, including a disqualification win in four rounds over former Hector Camacho world title challenger Rafael Solis, and a knockout in eight over Miguel Medina. After those two wins, he was ranked as the number one challenger by the IBF.

On October 27, 1988, Molina was at The Arco Arena in Sacramento, to challenge the IBF super featherweight champion Tony Lopez, in what marked the beginning of a three-fight rivalry between Molina and Lopez. Molina dropped Lopez in round two, but Lopez went on to retain the title by a split decision.

In his next fight, April 29, 1989, the WBO put him and former WBC featherweight champion Juan Laporte against each other for the vacant WBO super featherweight title. Molina became a world champion by beating Laporte by a 12-round unanimous decision at Roberto Clemente Coliseum in San Juan. Then, in September of that year, he returned to Arco Arena to resume his rivalry with Lopez. Molina added the IBF belt to his WBO crown by knocking Lopez out in the tenth round.

On January 28, 1990, he avenged his loss to Suarez by knocking him out in the sixth round to retain the belt, but then, on May 20 of that year, he and Lopez met for their rubber match, this time in Reno. Lopez dropped Molina and won a unanimous decision to recover his status as world Jr. Lightweight champion.

Between then and 1992, Molina won five straight fights, four by knockout. And so, after Brian Mitchell (who had beaten Lopez), left the IBF title vacant due to retirement, Molina travelled to South Africa, where he met Jackie Gunguzula for the vacant world title. He knocked Gunguzula out in the fourth round to become world champion once again, and, days later, he was the object of a large welcoming at Luis Muñoz Marín International Airport in San Juan. During this period of his reign, Molina made seven defenses, beating challengers like Bernard Taylor, Floyd Havard, Wilson Rodriguez, former world Featherweight champion Gregorio Vargas and future world Featherweight champion Manuel "Mantecas" Medina, among others.

Around then, he became quite known by the mainstream Puerto Rican public, becoming one of the first boxers ever to be portrayed on the cover of Vea magazine, and dating a famous model.

Molina then moved up in weight to challenge the WBO lightweight champion Oscar De La Hoya, losing by a unanimous decision in 12 rounds in an HBO Boxing televised event.

After that, Molina engaged in a series of fights against mostly lower-level opposition for the next two years, and he grew frustrated over the fact that his opposition level was being downgraded by promoters after the fight with de la Hoya. He won his next nine bouts, but the only two opponents that can probably be called respectable names in his list of opponents during that span were Jaime "Rocky" Balboa, beaten by decision in ten, and Isaac Cruz, beaten by a disqualification in four.

On May 9, 1998, Molina was given a second chance at a world lightweight championship, when he met IBF champion Sugar Shane Mosley, in Molina's second HBO fight. Mosley retained the title by a knockout in the eighth round, and Molina went back to the super featherweight division.

His next fight was also for the world title, but he had to wait nine months for that fight. In February 1999, he faced IBF super featherweight champion Robert Garcia, dropping the champion in their pay per view event but losing a 12-round decision in what turned out to be his last world title fight.

Molina wasn't done with boxing, and he went on to win seven more fights in a row, including two decision wins, one of which was televised by the USA Network over Emanuel Burton, and another one over future Kostya Tszyu world title challenger Ben Tackie, which was on the undercard of the Lennox Lewis vs. David Tua fight's pay per view program.

His last fight was a T.K.O. loss to Mexican Juan Lazcano, Molina retired from boxing after the fight.

title: John John Molina