text:
Wiktionary:Per-language pages proposal

This page is meant to collect proposals, requirements, known problems and other information, regarding a possible future change in Wiktionary to have each page contain an entry in one language only.

Discussions should be held on the talk page, to keep this page clean and clear.

Overview
Currently, Wiktionary divides each main-namespace page into sections by language. Every language that has that word gets its own section on the page.

This situation is historical. When Wiktionary was first created, there were no other large wiki-based dictionaries, and Wikipedia (an encyclopedia) was the primary model for content creation and management for most new wikis on the internet. In its earliest days, Wiktionary did not explicitly support all languages, and it was primarily an English-only dictionary. Other languages were gradually added, and when entries for English already existed, sections for those languages were added to the existing pages. The format evolved naturally, but it has some major drawbacks.

Doesn't match typical use cases
Only a small minority of users will ever be interested in getting an overview of a word in different languages. Most users will be using Wiktionary for three tasks:

 * to look up the meaning of an English word
 * to translate back and forth between English and another language (English-to-foreign is done through translation tables, foreign-to-English through definitions in foreign-language entries)
 * to find auxiliary information about a word in any language, such as etymology, grammar etc.

In each of these cases, the language that is being looked up is already known, and most other online multilingual dictionaries treat the target language as the primary choice. This means that to look up a word, you first specify what language you're looking up, and then say what word to look up in that language.

The current situation on Wiktionary is the reverse of that: first you look up a word, then you select the language among the sections that are available on the page. This works fairly well when you look up a single word, provided you are patient enough to find the word on each page. But the more words you look up, the more time you spend finding the correct section on each page, and this can be rather frustrating, especially when better alternatives are available elsewhere on the internet.

The problem here is that we require users to make the choice of language each time they view a page. This doesn't match what people typically do with a dictionary. They normally know in advance what language they want, and once they have selected it, they will want all words they look up to be in that language. Scripts like tabbed languages mitigate this to some degree, but because they are client-side, they have their own problems and are not as robust as proper server-side support for user needs.

Leads to technical barriers
Over time, we have developed some solutions to mitigate problems, including:
 * Tabbed languages.
 * Gadget-run orange links for existing pages that do not have a section anchor for a specific language.
 * Links to language sections in, , , and others.
 * Templates like.

But these often have their own problems: tabbed languages and orange links are both client-side scripts, and are relatively fragile. They rely on backwards-parsing our content to figure out what we meant in the first place, but couldn't express because of limitations in our content model. And these solutions don't really fix that core problem, which is that we just aren't storing information in a useful way. It's counterproductive to keep trying to devise new ways to work around limitations in our content model that could easily be fixed if we changed that.

This proposal is also the only long-term solution to memory errors on long pages, described at Lua memory errors.

Conclusion
At a fundamental level, Wiktionary entries are still about words in all languages and not about words in one language. This doesn't match how users expect to use a dictionary, and has led to technical measures which try to work around a broken content model. However, there is really only one proper workable long-term solution, and that is to change the content model itself. This page is, hence, a proposal that:

 * Wiktionary entries should be organised around words in a given language. Entries for the same word in different languages should be placed on different wiki pages.
 * Changes should be made to how Wiktionary users look up content, so that they can find the information they want more easily. Preferably, we should look to other online dictionaries for inspiration.

Consequences
Consequences of implementing this change:

Advantages

 * 1) Watchlist becomes more useful. Edits to (for example) en/foo won't appear in the watchlist of someone who only cares about fr/foo.
 * 2) "What links here" becomes more useful. Terms linking to language X won't appear in the WLH page of terms linking to language Y. Consequently, it might become a useful tool for searching for related terms, descendants, derived terms and whatnot.
 * 3) Page access will be much faster. If a person only wants to read information about the Portuguese word a they can load the Portuguese content alone, instead of the Portuguese content with content in 77 other languages they don't care about.
 * 4) More flexible use of redirects. The existence of a word in language X won't prevent us from redirecting the same word in language Y.
 * 5) No need to provide language codes to templates, if templates and modules can retrieve the language from the current page title. This means:
 * 6) Less typing, and less room for errors. This leads to less incorrect categorisation as well.
 * 7) Lowers the barrier for editors who no longer need to remember what all the codes mean.
 * 8) Creating identical entries will be easier. If multiple entries are identical, as is common for terms in closely related languages, you only need to write the wikicode once and paste it into the other language pages without the need to manually change the lang codes.
 * 9) If a link is blue, you know that the entry exists for that language. No more need for orange links, which is a feature most users do not get to use.
 * 10) More flexible use of section linking. Currently, links to part-of-speech sections like "Noun" are avoided because they are ambiguous as to the language. With per-language pages, those will be more reliable, although not perfectly so because an entry might still have multiple noun sections.
 * 11) Makes patrolling easier, if the language can be identified from the page name. You can focus on pages in a given language, while skipping any you're not familiar with.

Disadvantages

 * 1) Conversion will be a nightmare. Millions of pages to create and move, thousands of templates to rewrite, new software to create, loads of new practices to decide, twenty years of tradition thrown in the dust. How do we undertake the transition without making Wiktionary unavailable during its certainly long duration?
 * 2) How do we deal with almost 2 decades of page history in a sane way? How will history be maintained if we split pages?
 * 3) Adding multiple entries at once for a single word will be more difficult. It will require creating an entry for each word separately.
 * 4) Not clear how to handle Translingual sections. An entry like cm is relevant to someone interested in French as much as it is to someone who is interested in English. However, if this change is undertaken and a person searches for something like a with French as the language, they might never see the Translingual entry which may contain the sense they are looking for.
 * 5) * Ideally, translingual sections would be transcluded onto every page regardless of language, but this would need extra software support. Alternately, they could simply link to it in a prominent way.
 * 6) If the new structure is done by convention, that convention will need enforcing and checking, to make sure nobody creates entries with names that don't fit the pattern. If we can get the software to check this for us (perhaps via abuse filters), this is less an issue.
 * 7) Links in definition lines, which are currently raw links and meant to point to English (and sometimes even Translingual) sections, will have to be replaced, either with a link template like  or possibly with a template that encloses an entire definition.
 * 8) Disambiguation pages would become necessary, which would require regular bot-updating.
 * 9) A new search interface would be needed where the language of interest could be input, in a straightforward way (similar to the translation-adding gadget).
 * 10) Some languages have slashes as part of their standard orthography, e.g. 🇨🇬, or have slashes in special situations, e.g. 🇨🇬. These would need some special handling.

Other tasks that will be necessary

 * 1) Consider removing all bot flags, as the structural alterations may cause bots to malfunction. The flags can be readded, preferably without a vote, once the operator updates the bot or confirms it is unaffected by the changes.
 * 2) Update policy pages, especially Entry layout explained, to reflect the changes.
 * 3) If subpages are used, the wiki configuration file needs to be updated so namespace 0 allows subpages.
 * 4) All interwiki links (stored at Wikidata) will have to be fixed, as well as incoming links from Wikipedia.
 * 5) All raw links must be converted to language-specific links, including in definitions, which would probably mean that all definitions would have to be wrapped in a template.

An attempt to make a full list of tasks, in roughly chronological order, is at Per-language pages proposal/Tasks.

Subpages, language/word
Advantages:
 * 1) Supported by the current MediaWiki software.
 * 2) Structures pages and URLs the way people look them up. Language first, then word.
 * 3) Linking to another word in the same language is relatively easy, using  . This doesn't require knowing the current language.
 * 4) Allows the main page of each language (the one with no subpage) to be used as a portal or index.

Disadvantages:
 * 1) Doesn't mesh easily with our existing structure. If a user looks up "word" without a language, then it's not clear where to send the user to, because the mainspace only contains pages beginning with a language (name or code). Thus, all links will require a language to be specified unless a workaround is found.
 * 2) Because it uses subpages, certain page titles will be reinterpreted by the software.

Subpages, word/language
Advantages:
 * 1) Supported by the current MediaWiki software.
 * 2) Resembles our current structure more closely, and therefore easier to convert over, and easier for existing editors and users to get used to.
 * 3) Allows the main page of each word (the one with no subpage) to be used as a disambiguation page.
 * 4) Because of the above, existing links will not break; they just lead to the disambiguation page. This is not as convenient, but at least it's not broken, and we could use a tabbed-languages-like solution to bridge the gap until all links are fixed to point to the correct language subpage.

Disadvantages:
 * 1) Represents a compromise, because it still oriented somewhat towards the word-first structure that is currently used.
 * 2) Less ideal for linking; linking to another word in the same language requires  . This is mitigated by our extensive use of linking templates with language codes, which can be converted to this new format easily.
 * 3) Because it uses subpages, certain page titles will be reinterpreted by the software.
 * 4) Every time a new entry is created, the hub page must be created as well. This could be solved by bots, or by making modifications to the software so that it auto-generates these pages if they don't exist.

What should go on the "main" page of each word?

Disambiguation page
This would be a list of all subpages, but no content.

Advantages:
 * 1) Clean and simple, easy for users to find the information they need.

Disadvantages:
 * 1) Users have to click through to a specific language before seeing anything informative if they don't have JavaScript enabled, or click on an old link from elsewhere before the change.
 * 2) There would be no way of easily finding a word if the user does not first know which language it belongs to. This is probably not a common occurrence, however, and other dictionaries assume the language is known too.

Content access
Instead of a single input for searching, there needs to be one for the term and one for the language. The language should be remembered, as the user's "current language".

However, not all searches are done through the search box. People may have search box plugins for Wiktionary in their browser, or they might just find it more convenient to type the word into the URL. In addition, not all links on Wiktionary use linking templates like yet, so we must assume for the foreseeable future that some of the incoming lookup requests that Wiktionary receives will not have a language specified. There needs to be a convenient way to handle these cases.

Default to current language
This would be like tabbed languages, but server-side. Once the current language is known, if the user types a word by itself, bypass any disambiguation pages and always send the user to the word in that language.

If there is only one language for a word a user looks up, what should be done if that's not the user's current language? Sending them there regardless would be surprising and confusing for a user (look up Ukrainian, get Russian?). Sending them to the nonexistent page for that language is probably better.

A disadvantage is that this breaks "wikified" text, such as definitions. These would end up linking to the current language, not to English.

This would not affect links to languages that have a language specified, so that cross-language links (translations, descendants, etymologies) should work normally. Should these links change the current language (the way tabbed languages does), or should it be kept? That is, if you visit an English entry, should your current language then be set to English, so that all further lookups are assumed to be for English terms?

What should the current language be when none has been set yet, because the user started a new session? Should it be English, or should it default to disambiguating all languageless links?

Assume languageless links are English
Another possibility is to assume links with no language are English. This makes sense from a wikification point of view, and most of our entries still don't link to definitions using language links, so these will not be broken by this. But it's less convenient for lookup.

Past discussions

 * Grease pit/2014/February
 * Grease pit/2013/April
 * Beer parlour/2012/October
 * Beer parlour/2011/April

title: Wiktionary:Per-language pages proposal


text:
nyhtöpossu

Etymology
, . Coined in late 2012 by a food blog called CampaSimpukka (see citations).

Noun

 * 1) pulled pork

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: nyhtöpossu


text:
virgeu

Noun

 * 1) * 1525-1526, Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional, King Denis of Portugal, B 547: Vi oj'eu cantar d'amor (facsimile)
 * "roa-opt"
 * "roa-opt"

- Vi oi'eu / En hũ fremoso virgeu / Hũa fremosa pastor.

title: virgeu


text:
結婚戒指

Noun

 * 1) wedding ring; wedding band

title: 結婚戒指


text:
結婚指環

Noun

 * 1) wedding ring; wedding band

title: 結婚指環


text: 结婚戒指

title: 结婚戒指


text: 结婚指环

title: 结婚指环


text:
訂婚戒指

Noun

 * 1) engagement ring

title: 訂婚戒指


text: 订婚戒指

title: 订婚戒指


text:
Byttneriina

Hypernyms

 * ,, , , - clades;  - order;  - clade; Malvaceae - family

Hyponyms

 * ; - subfamilies

title: Byttneriina


text:
Wiktionary talk:Per-language pages proposal

Idea about page structure
Language name as namespace, language code as its alias, term as page title. This way we can also easily do language-based search (a basic feature which Wiktionary lacks). We can add a drop-down list just before the Search box to select namespace/language. --Z 21:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be way too many namespaces and it would mean that changing a language code will require more than just an admin with a bot. --WikiTiki89 21:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you mean exactly? What you said apparently applies to the idea of creating terms as subpages of the language codes (or vice versa) as well. --Z 22:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Normal Wiktionary admins or bureaucrats can't change namespaces. You need to edit the wiki configuration files to do that, it's hardcoded. 22:39, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I understood your idea to mean that "English:" or "en:" will be used as a namespace. Was I wrong? --WikiTiki89 22:39, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see now. --Z 22:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Chinese character entries
Re "It might also mean we could not name our Chinese character entries "Translingual" anymore (which is not so bad?)." Why is that (beyond the same issue that there is with any other translingual entry)? --WikiTiki89 22:03, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Because they're not really translingual, they only apply to languages that use Chinese characters. If we keep it as it is, then that would mean assuming that if a translingual entry exists for character X, then that entry applies to all languages that have a word with character X. 22:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Which is almost always true. The languages that use Chinese characters, usually retain their meaning. --WikiTiki89 22:35, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely always or almost always? 22:37, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to be absolutely always. --WikiTiki89 22:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What happens in the rare cases where it's not true? 22:39, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * An irrelevant translingual section is displayed. --WikiTiki89 22:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I support using "Translingual", even if all definitions are in place for each CJKV language and all Sinitic varieties, if they're important. Differences in meanings/usages are not uncommon at all.
 * Character 食, which has only a generic meaning "to eat/eating" but is hardly ever used in modern Mandarin in this sense but it's used as a component in all CJKV languages, vernacular Cantonese. Originally, they're all Chinese in a broad sense of the language but many Han characters have undefined part of speech, and a broad meaning. Stroke orders, etymology, broad meanings, other character information are better kept at "Translingual". Unihan database info for Han characters, e.g. [食@Unihan is also quite generic, even though it has more information specific to Chinese or Mandarin. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli]] (обсудить/вклад) 23:55, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's also worth thinking in terms of how CJKV languages treat separate Han characters. There are specific Character dictionaries 字典, as opposed to "word dictionaries", which explain readings, etymologies, stroke orders in relation to their languages. There are things that are common for each, though. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We could treat scripts as languages, and have "language" sections for the characters that are part of them. 00:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you suggest specifically? "Han" as a large section, with Mandarin, Japanese, etc. as subsections? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not as subsections. Just rename "Translingual" to "Han script". 00:56, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm tentatively OK with "Han script" but note that we already have "Han character", "Kanji", "Hanzi" and "Hanja" subheaders, which mean about the same thing. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's necessary. But in either case, switching the ==Translingual== header to ==Han script== has nothing to do with the per-language pages proposal. --WikiTiki89 05:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it does, though, insofar as figuring out what to call the subpage for such data. Would we still use the   lang code?  Or would we have to come up with something else?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's a general question about what to do with translingual sections as a whole and not specific to Chinese characters. But the way I see it, why come up with something else when the mul code works fine? --WikiTiki89 00:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WikiTiki is right, this question is orthogonal to splitting pages onto subpages. If our current use of ==Translingual== as a header for Chinese characters in general, or for any specific character, is as right as our use of ==German== as a header for essen, then that/those Chinese character(s) should go on (a) mul subpage(s) to the same extent that essen should go on a de subpage. If our use of ==Translingual== as a header is not right, either in general or in any specific case, then we need to change that regardless of whether or not we split pages. - -sche (discuss) 00:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Backwards compatibility for users
By which I do not mean the technical backward compatibility, but instead the UI experience that readers have. This could be preserved by having foo/en and foo/fr transclude on foo so that, from the reader's perspective, the page foo will look exactly the same as it currently does. Some of the implementation problems (like what language to redirect a user to if the one they want does not exist) can be solved easily with this; if the Ukrainian does not exist, send them to the page with all the transclusions (not, say, the Russian page). Also, the IWs can be fixed slowly without leaving broken links or anything, because all entries will still be located on the all-language pages, at least from a reader's perspective. The only problem I can see with this is that it requires a bot to continually create these pages as language-specific pages are created. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:48, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I just realised that if we are to take language code etc from the page title, transcluding may be much harder than I thought. But without it, we'd have to use disambiguation pages, which are monumentally stupid. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 22:51, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Maybe we can make a script that automatically transcludes a page’s subpages into itself (which would require the term/lang format) and beg the MW folk to add a way for to return the page’s true name even when transcluded . — Ungoliant (falai) 22:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We already have Special:PrefixIndex- would probably need to extend that with Lua somehow to get the functionality. DTLHS (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

 * [[Image:Arrowred.png|15px]] @, does DLTHS's comment address your concern about transcluding? I confess I don't quite understand the problem you describe, in saying "if we are to take language code etc from the page title"...
 * PS: How the heck does this "ping" feature work? Does  do it?  Does a regular wikilink to a username do it?  Does just @NAME do it?
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * On the nature of the problem: one of the advantages of subpages is that we don't have to use langcodes as much; we can just steal 'em from the title. Of course, that's complicated when you're transcluding and the pagetitle is no longer the same.
 * On the nature of pinging: All of the above (and the handy ) do it except just writing a user's handle. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 00:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

“Users” don’t need “backwards compatibility.” Readers need information to be presented simply and clearly. A list of links to the language entries that share a spelling would be much more “compatible” than a confusing duplication of content.

If we can build this right, then search results will take a reader directly to the entry they’re looking for most of the time, anyway. —Michael Z. 2014-02-07 18:12 z
 * The readers themselves disagree, as evidenced on WT:FEEDBACK, where they already dislike that they can't see definitions when they go to e.g. fleering. If they searched for fleering and then had to click through to fleering/en, and then had to click through again to fleer/en (or to fleer and then fleer/en), it's quite bizarre to think that they would find that "simple" or "clear" or good in any way. - -sche (discuss) 19:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I am arguing against the kind of redundancy that you are arguing against. I’m also suggesting that the search result should show readers what they’re looking for and they shouldn’t have to click through anything.

 * That our search field’s default behaviour is “jump” and that we have instituted the self-contradictory notion of “soft redirects” are separate issues. —Michael Z. 2014-03-02 19:26 z

 * I understood your comment that "a list of links to the language entries that share a spelling would be much more 'compatible' than a confusing duplication of content" to mean that you thought [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiktionary:Sandbox&oldid=25757975 splitting pages and having directories that merely linked to subpages, like this] (with foo/en taking you to [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiktionary:Sandbox&oldid=25757982 here], foo/fr taking you to [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiktionary:Sandbox&oldid=25757983 here], etc) was preferable to having directories that transcluded subpages, so I pointed out that average readers had expressed the opposite opinion. If I misunderstood your comment, I apologise. I think that the [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Wiktionary:Sandbox&oldid=25757980 current arrangement], where there are no subpages at all, is the one with the least duplication/redundancy. Do you agree? - -sche (discuss) 21:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Transcluding all subpages
I removed one of the stated disadvantages to this approach, as it seemed to be based on a misunderstanding of what's proposed.

 Disadvantages:
 * 1) Generally, the same disadvantages as our current system. Users have to hunt through the page to find what they want, which eliminates a lot of the logic and usefulness that dedicated subpages would have for the average user.

What's proposed when transcluding all subpages is that there would be both dedicated subpages, and an everything-all-together page. Depending on how the user searches, and / or how preferences and options are configured, users would be directed either to the everything page, or to the lang-specific page. (At least, as I currently envision it.) There may be other disadvantages, but a lack of subpages is not an issue, since those would actually also exist. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know that's what you meant, and the disadvantage was directed towards that. If all the content is given as one page to the user, then they still have to look through it, the existence of a subpage is not relevant anymore at that point. The subpage is only useful then if the user explicitly requests that language in search or the URL, but that's exactly the situation where the format of the "main" page doesn't matter. So it eliminates the usefulness of a dedicated subpage to the user, whenever the user is not directed to that subpage. 00:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. If the user doesn't know what language he/she is searching for, then neither does Wiktionary. If there are multiple languages in an entry, displaying them all at once is the easiest way for the user to figure out which language is relevant. --WikiTiki89 00:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not if we list all languages by name. Then they can just select the language from there. 01:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * But that requires the user to know which language to click on. Otherwise, it's more annoying to have to click on each one one-by-one, than it is to have all of them on one page. --WikiTiki89 01:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Most users will know what language they want, and for someone who knows the language, transcluding all subpages onto the main page is less convenient (why else would we be doing this, invent things like tabbed languages etc?). The whole point of this change is to optimise Wiktionary for majority use cases. We shouldn't sacrifice usability for the majority to cater for the minority that might not know what language they're looking up. That's backwards. 01:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If the user knows what language he/she wants, then the user will search only for that language. --WikiTiki89 01:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. There might be internal links that don't point to the correct language, or there might be search scripts in browsers (like mine), or incoming links from Wikipedia, or someone might have just typed the word in the URL because they don't know the language code. There are many situations in which the language is known, but the user still ends up on the disambiguation page. 01:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well presumably there would still be a table of contents at the top listing the languages, making it essentially no different from the disambiguation page idea. --WikiTiki89 01:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The difference is speed. I don't want all the content to be transcluded, because it's too slow. I don't think the need for it justifies the cost. 01:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * So the only downside is the page loading time. --WikiTiki89 01:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * A disambig page that consists solely of a list of languages is a substantial usability regression from the current everything-all-together display, in that it unnecessarily adds the need for another click-through before users can find anything useful.
 * To take a different tack, what positives are there to having a page that is just a list of languages that have that given headword? How is that more useful than displaying everything together?  I mean just the page itself, ignoring technical considerations, linking, and the like -- I mean solely the page as a newbie user would find it.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You're comparing the wrong thing here. You're assuming that if the user lands on a page with all the languages' content, they've found what they need, but that's obviously not true. They have to find what they need within that page too, and that's much harder when pages have many languages on them. There's a lot of scrolling and visual searching involved. A simple list on the other hand is much easier to search through. Why else would all other online dictionaries work with lists of languages? I don't think Wiktionary is being particularly "clever" by doing it differently. If everyone else does it another way, maybe they're onto something and we need to set our pride and complacency aside. 01:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * At that point, the user can presumably click on the language header to go to the subpage. --WikiTiki89 01:25, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean, at that point they can first search through the whole page for the correct header, and then go to the subpage if they even think it's useful by that point. 01:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You're going in circles, we've already covered that. --WikiTiki89 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what is your point? I've made mine. 01:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've made mine too, if you want you can re-read the section. --WikiTiki89 01:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Then I suppose we just see it differently. 01:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * @CodeCat, have I correctly understood that your primary objection to transclusion (of all lang-specific subpages of a term onto the all-lang landing page for that term) would be technical in nature, having to do with the speed of the operation? This is an honest question; I'm not trying to pigeonhole, I'm trying to get a handle on everyone's positions.  :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That is my only objection to transclusion and list of subpages combined. I don't think that the majority of users who just want to get to their desired language should wait for the whole page to load just for the benefit of a minority of users. 03:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the supposed advantages to subpages which their supporters have cited is that they allow "users who just want to get to their desired language" to get right to that language — by going to its subpage. A user who goes to the main page most likely wants to view all of the languages at once. Hence, the main pages should transclude the subpages (if subpages are used). Note how often people complain on WT:FB that they have gone to, say, fleering and not found any definitions (the definitions are at fleer). If the main pages were mere lists of subpages, people who navigated to them would have to make still more clicks just to get a peek at the content they want. That is a bad idea and I imagine it would be quite unpopular with Wiktionary's casual users. - -sche (discuss) 04:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * But I already showed many examples where someone knows what language they want, but will still end up on the main page. In Firefox I have a search script set up that lets me search words on Wiktionary, either by typing them in the search bar, or by typing "wik" followed by the word in the URL bar. This is probably a pretty common setup among regular Wiktionary users. There is no way that I know of that that script could be adapted to support the language subpages as well. The only way is a workaround at best, to just type the word with /lang at the end of it. But that means having to type that with every single search, which is very bothersome and would actually be a regression for me. I use tabbed languages, so by default, it goes to the last-viewed language. That means I don't have to tell it what language to go to, it remembers it for me. We should do the same with our subpages approach: if the user goes to the main page, but they have a "current language" set during their session, redirect them to the correct subpage. That would be a big usability advantage for this kind of usage.
 * I also realised that I have another objection against transcluding all subpages. It confuses users who don't realise that there is more than one language on the page, because they normally only see the first language on the page (often English). A list of languages would not allow such confusion. 14:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would they "normally only see the first language on the page"? --WikiTiki89 14:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (@CodeCat) You have a special script for searching Wiktionary from your search or URL bars, and you use tabbed languages. In this respect, you are probably in the minority of people who use this site. And you seem to be saying that once your search script takes you to [[land]], you don't like that you can already see the Dutch content on that page by scrolling down to it without having to click to another page; you would prefer that you landed on a page and then had to go to a different page to get to the content that you wanted. In this respect, you are definitely in the minority, as evidenced by the feedback I noted above. - -sche (discuss) 19:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * What about a compromise? We could just transclude the definitions on the hub page while linking to the full subpages (is this totally crazy?) DTLHS (talk) 04:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be pretty hard to implement. --WikiTiki89 05:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I think that having the current pages display the same content they already do, by transcluding the subpages or whichever method we find, is crucial to this proposal. I don’t know how we can implement it, but I expect many users will be too lazy to add the language and for them the structural change will be a nightmare unless the current pages remain the same. We can’t please them all, but it would be nice if we could avoid displeasing too many people. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see what's crucial about it. For me, the whole point of this proposal is to get away from bad past practices, and to innovate and restructure our content so that it's actually more well thought out. If we just linger on with our past habits and don't actually change anything, it's a huge wasted opportunity and wouldn't achieve the improvement that I think it was intended to. 14:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We will still be changing the structure, the improvement will still be there. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No one likes immediate drastic changes to the interface. Even if we were to do that in future, we would have to introduce it as an option first and then get everyone to switch over to it. --WikiTiki89 14:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, it’s certainly a disadvantage to have the same main content in two places, looking identical or nearly identical. How will the reader orient themselves if language entries also appear in aggregated pages, which sometimes will only have the same language content? Not everyone looks at the URL. Could be extremely confusing, for old readers and new.

If we take this approach, there must be a clear visual and content difference between the language pages and the aggregating pages (since purely visual differences might not propagate to other wiki skins and sites that reuse our content). —Michael Z. 2014-02-07 18:08 z
 * If the pages are designed well, the user will be able to know the difference between the main page and a subpage. This is already done by the little "< parent page" link at the top of all subpages, but that might not be enough. --WikiTiki89 18:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Why not make the language sections collapsible on the main page? That would be a compromise. The content is all there, while at the same time you have the choice of seeing only what you need to, and it's cleanly listed so that you don't have to hunt through all of the content to find your language. 22:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Because that's still a lot of clicking if you don't know what language you're looking for. --WikiTiki89 22:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * It would be zero clicking if there’s an expand/collapse all entries control and persistent state. —Michael Z. 2014-02-07 23:27 z
 * That's a good point. --WikiTiki89 23:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ideally, the content would only be loaded when you expand it. That would keep the load times down. 23:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't have both dynamically loaded expanding content and the ability to have everything be expanded by default, without slowing down the loading even more. --WikiTiki89 00:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Why not? If it is expanded by default, it loads the subpages automatically while it loads the main page. 00:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we need a JavaScript expert's opinion on this. --WikiTiki89 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Maybe with lazy loading. The headings are in the HTML, and if they are expanded then their section content starts loading from the top of the page on down. Perhaps if everything is working correctly, the reader barely notices it happening.

 * (Relevant: I am not a JavaScript expert). —Michael Z. 2014-02-09 05:45 z

 * @CodeCat:re "For me, the whole point of this proposal is to get away from bad past practices, and to innovate and restructure our content so that it's actually more well thought out."
 * There is no independent value to getting away from past practices or to innovating. Merely asserting that past practices are bad and claiming that one's current thoughts are superior to the earlier thoughts of others is unsatisfactory. Oftentimes your arguments seem crucially dependent on imposing some kind of homogeneity in service of some unstated, but deeply felt ideal. I don't think that waving the flag of bleeding-edge innovation should and will successfully rally support after the modest benefits and substantial costs of earlier drastic changes. DCDuring TALK 14:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

 * What is so bleeding-edge about putting unrelated dictionary entries on separate web pages? —Michael Z. 2014-02-09 19:13 z
 * Bleeding-edginess is determined with respect to the capabilities of the implementers. Global changes that presuppose a high degree of uniformity and discipline among editors will cause lots of aggravation. If the benefits were more obvious and universal among all classes of users, the pain of our customary manner of implementation might be worth it. DCDuring TALK 20:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Taxonomic names
Taxonomic names apparently can appear in Latin characters in running text of many languages. Should they be made part of all languages? Are there some languages for which such usage is rare and best ignored, eg, no science writing in the language? DCDuring TALK 01:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * They will be handled the same as the rest of translingual. Which may or may not include transcluding on every language's subpage. --WikiTiki89 01:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, where did we get to transcluding onto subpages? I only ever thought about transcluding from subpages, onto the headword page as a kind of landing page for search results.  Has the proposal expanded / changed substantially in other folks' understanding too?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 01:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Since "Translingual" applies to all languages, it would only make sense to include it with every language. --WikiTiki89 01:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Empirically, I wonder whether there are not some languages that have yet to include any taxonomic name in running text. DCDuring TALK 02:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably, but those languages are unlikely to have a word coinciding with the spelling of the taxonomic name. --WikiTiki89 02:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of it from a usability usefulness perspective. For English I'd think we'd want to include them all. For a language that an English speaker was learning, I don't think there is great value and some detriment. Why should the list of proper names be overrun by taxonomic names?
 * Dictionaries like MW 3rd have lots of taxonomic names, thereby inflating their entry account. DCDuring TALK 03:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * How often does a taxonomic name actually coincide with an unrelated word in another language? --WikiTiki89 03:22, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Many are alone anyway, because of our lemmatization habits. For example, Crocus is on a separate page from crocus. Since they haven’t been systematically or comprehensively grouped with other languages up to this point, there’s no point in adding that new requirement to this proposal. —Michael Z. 2014-02-07 05:17 z
 * The clutter effect is limited to things like PoS and some topical categories, eg, insects, and consecutive entries, if something like an alphabetical index of entries is created. I suppose if taxonomic names are never categorized with the items from the rest of the language, even that is not a problem. DCDuring TALK 05:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Opposition

 * 1)  --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC) Let me conveniently register my opposition to the proposal to create separate pages per language. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because? Or is there a reason? 13:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Alternative - default tab
I found this page trying to work out if it's possible to do exactly what this page describes. The solution I came up with comes in two parts. The first step was to enable the "Tabbed Languages" gadget. The second step, I created a greasemonkey script that sets the anchor to the language I want, in my case "#French". This means that when I open a page it comes up with the french definition of the word if it's present. The script is pretty brute-force (below) and doesn't give any way to set the language. Having some user method to set this would give almost equivalent functionality. That said, I've got no idea how to propose changes to gadgets, so I'm putting the suggestion here. (function {   'use strict';    if (window.location.hash !== 'French') {        window.location.hash = 'French';    } });

Alwaysmpe (talk) 17:33, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That doesn't address the problem here, which is about the structure of the wiki itself. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 18:12, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


text: 订婚指环

title: 订婚指环


text:
訂婚指環

Noun

 * 1) engagement ring

title: 訂婚指環


text:
指環

Noun

 * 1)  finger ring; ring

title: 指環


text: 指环

title: 指环


text:
鑽戒

Noun

 * 1) diamond ring

title: 鑽戒


text: 钻戒

title: 钻戒


text: diamond rings

title: diamond rings


text: Konjugationen

title: Konjugationen


text:
awki

Adjective

 * 1) old, referring to a man or male

Noun

 * 1) grandfather, grandparent, old man
 * 2) prince, chief, leader, senior, elder, authority
 * 3) minor spirit or deity, spirit

title: awki


text:
tràthail

Etymology
From, corresponding to.

Adjective

 * 1) seasonable
 * 2) in good time, early, soon

title: tràthail


text:
awkikuna

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) grandparents
 * 2) lineage, ancestors
 * 1) lineage, ancestors

title: awkikuna


text: Category:Shina language

title: Category:Shina language


text:
awkisuyu

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) principality

title: awkisuyu


text: transvestiten

title: transvestiten


text:
ripuwlika

Etymology
Borrowed from, from , from , from +.

Noun

 * 1) republic

title: ripuwlika


text:
tráthach

Adjective

 * 1) timely

title: tráthach


text: transvestiter

title: transvestiter


text: transvestiterna

title: transvestiterna


text:
traaoil

Etymology
From, equivalent to. Cognate with 🇨🇬.

Adjective

 * 1) timely, topical, apropos, opportune, seasonable
 * 2) fitting, apt, fortunate, apposite, felicitous
 * 3) punctual

title: traaoil


text:
Template:R:APWeb

at

title: Template:R:APWeb


text:
transvestitt

Noun

 * 1) a transvestite

Noun

 * 1) a transvestite

title: transvestitt


text: transvestitten

title: transvestitten


text: transvestitter

title: transvestitter


text: transvestitterne

title: transvestitterne


text: transvestittene

title: transvestittene


text:
User:Rui Gabriel Correia

Here I am

title: User:Rui Gabriel Correia


text: transvestittar

title: transvestittar


text:
User talk:Rui Gabriel Correia

Talk to me

Folk Etymology
This is a technical term used by professional etymologists to describe a real phenomenon. How else would you describe a change that occurs due a mistaken belief of speakers about the origins of a word or phrase? Whether it was right or wrong, it happened, so an etymology needs to mention it. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rui Gabriel Correia


text: transvestittane

title: transvestittane


text:
tráthúil

Etymology
From. .

Adjective

 * 1) timely, opportune
 * 2) apt, felicitous, witty;  quickwitted, ready-witted, quick at repartee

title: tráthúil


text:
слышь

Etymology
lit. 'do you [familiar] hear'.

Interjection

 * 1) hey!

title: слышь


text: слышишь

title: слышишь


text:
брильянт

Noun

 * 1)  diamond

title: брильянт


text:
tráthúlacht

Noun

 * 1) timeliness, opportuneness
 * 2) aptness; readiness of speech, wittiness

title: tráthúlacht


text:
kihlasormus

Noun

 * 1) engagement ring

title: kihlasormus


text:
פגש

Etymology
From the root.

Verb

 * 1) To meet.
 * 2) To meet for the first time.
 * 3) To meet by chance.
 * 4) To meet intentionally: to have a meeting with.

Usage notes

 * In all subsenses, may be either intransitive (with the subject denoting both parties) or transitive (with the subject denoting one party and the direct object denoting the other).

Synonyms

 * נִפְגַּשׁ

title: פגש


text: datamaskinene

title: datamaskinene


text: User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/sandbox/head

title: User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/sandbox/head


text:
자전

Etymology 1
.

Noun

 * 1) Chinese character dictionary
 * 2)  word dictionary
 * 1)  word dictionary

Etymology 2
.

Noun

 * 1) self-rotation

title: 자전


text: datamaskina

title: datamaskina


text: datamaskinar

title: datamaskinar


text: datamaskinane

title: datamaskinane


text:
timanttisormus

Noun

 * 1) diamond ring finger ring with a diamond or diamonds
 * 2) diamond ring optical phenomenon during a solar eclipse

title: timanttisormus


text:
נגן

Noun

 * 1) musician, player

title: נגן


text:
Jooł Yitalíjí Akéeʼdi Ahąąh Honinééhígíí

Etymology
+ (=on the field of football) +  +  (=the final one) +  +  +  (=playing against one another)

Proper noun

 * 1) Super Bowl


text: にっき

title: にっき


text:
ניגן

Verb

 * 1) To play (music), to play music.
 * 2) * יוני בלוך, אחרי שאפרת התאבדה
 * "he"

- היה שם בחור עם פסנתר שניגן והרס איזה שיר לא שלו

Usage notes

 * When a musical instrument is specified, it is introduced with.

title: ניגן


text: nikki

title: nikki


text:
рассчитывать

Verb

 * 1) to calculate, to compute
 * 2) to dismiss, to pay off; to sack; to discharge, to fire
 * 3)  to count / reckon (on); to calculate (on, upon), to depend (on, upon), to rely
 * 4) to number off, to order to number
 * 1) to number off, to order to number

title: рассчитывать


text:
saepiss.

Adverb

 * 1) * 1879, and Charles Short, , Oxford at the, “Messīas” I:
 * "la"
 * "la"

- I. the Messiah, Christ, Vulg. Johan. 4, 25; Lact. 4, 7, and in the eccl. fathers saepiss.

title: saepiss.


text:
рассчитать

Verb

 * 1) to calculate, to compute
 * 2) to dismiss, to pay off; to sack; to discharge, to fire
 * 3) to number off, to order to number

title: рассчитать


text:
опубликовать

Verb

 * 1) to publish, to issue
 * 2) to make public
 * 3) to promulgate

title: опубликовать


text:
Talk:transrepresentation

Requests for verification discussion
From transrepresentation at Requests for verification:

Rfv-sense - sense as above. This word does actually seem to be used in the real world, but with a meaning relating to transsexuality. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 09:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:transrepresentation


text:
Talk:groupos

Requests for verification discussion
From groupos at Requests for verification:

Dunno where to start really. I can see one attestation here for Groupos. The link in the entry, apart from not being durably archived, makes Groupos look like a company name. Again in the link I found, it looks like a company or a product name. There are lots of scannos for groups and grupos (Spanish) but possibly nothing that backs this up. Also is there a singular groupo/Groupo? Mglovesfun (talk) 16:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Might be a trademark originally — I can't tell — but seems promising. The linked site does show a singular ("Has anyone ever ordered a Sram and Shimano road groupo from one of the companies off of Alibaba?"); then a brief scan through Google Books found "These new groupos advance Campy's battle for market ...[dominance etc.? word inaccessible] (1986), "Most roadies go for Shimano or Campagnolo groupos." (2006), and — this one strongly suggesting a trademark — "Sets of components (called Groupos) are made by one manufacturer and as such are all one quality." Equinox ◑ 16:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

 * LOL - groupos is a generic term for any set of bicycle parts. It is not a trademarked or licensed term, all cyclists and manufacturers use the term.  Why don't you ask on a cycling forum? Good luck  198.103.184.76 14:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Why? Because it wouldn't help, that's why. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:22, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Groupo: All the drivetrain components (usually from the same company like Campagnolo or Shimano) needed to turn a bare frame into a complete bicycle (e.g., crank, chain, derailleurs, brakes, etc). Also called group. WritersCramp (talk) 11:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That may persuade people that it's credible, but it will still fail without references to durably-archived sources, which include books (we usually find those through Google Books), most physically-published newspapers and magazines, and Usenet (we usually find those through Google Groups). See WT:CFI for the complete requirements. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed; deleted because no citations of use in durably archived media (=books, printed magazines, Usenet) were provided. - -sche (discuss) 10:00, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:groupos


text:
опубликовывать

Verb

 * 1) to publish, to issue
 * 2) to make public
 * 3) to promulgate

title: опубликовывать


text:
Talk:葹

Requests for verification discussion
From 葹 at Requests for verification:

Rfv-sense: Translingual Han character: "kind of chrysanthemum, Xanthium"

A chrysanthemum is a well-known flowering plant; Xanthium is a cocklebur. Are both correct, but wrongly on the same line? Is one a misunderstanding? Or. DCDuring TALK 21:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The Unihan database where the definition was imported from separates definitions with "," (sometimes), and ";" (sometimes). Different parts of the database use different conventions that weren't always treated correctly by the original bot. DTLHS (talk) 22:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

 * I was able to find the following definitions 1. Siberian cocklebur (Xanthium sibiricum). 2. Xanthium strumarium. I'm not a plant expert, not sure if these two are completely separate. "kind of chrysanthemum" could be crossed out. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will split the definitions and confine the rfv to the "chrysanthemum" part. DCDuring TALK 04:35, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikispecies has the subspecies as the Siberian cocklebur, but the Plant List agrees with Anatoli's findings and doesn't have the Wikispecies name as accepted or a synonym. DCDuring TALK  04:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

 * This "kind of chrysanthemum" part was mass-copied from a character definition in CCDICT ditionary, made by volunteers. It's very useful but there are errors. I've checked reliable dictionaries. None of them mentions "chrysanthemum". Added translations at "cocklebur". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:52, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It should probably be given its 30 days on this page anyway. DCDuring TALK 13:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Cockleburs are a nightmare for taxonomists because they've been hitchhiking on animals and people all over the world since long before anyone paid them any scientific attention. The current consensus seems to be to treat them as maybe two or three highly variable species. I would just leave out the "sibiricum" part: if there ever were regional subspecies, they've all been randomly mixed together over the centuries (and they seem to be native to the Americas, anyway).
 * As for "chrysanthemums", the genus Chrysanthemum has been a battleground between the taxonomic splitters and lumpers for centuries- it used to contain things like tansy and chamomile, but now doesn't even include the garden chrysanthemum. The resulting confusion in what the common name refers to makes it pretty much meaningless without context. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:24, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 10:10, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:葹


text:
Talk:palm

Requests for verification discussion
From palm at Requests for verification:

"A handheld computing device used to store personal data such as calendars and phone numbers." There's palmtop, and there's the capitalised trademark Palm (WT:BRAND) for such a device, but is this really a generic lower-case term? Equinox ◑ 02:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Phones've made this mostly obsolete, but I've heard it. That said even in their heyday the more common term was PDA.  Soap (talk) 01:22, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 18:08, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Long range etymology with Yenisseian
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fyenisey%2fyenet&text_number=+462&root=config Thanks.
 * Altaic and Nostratic are fringe theories and do not in general belong in etymology sections. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 22:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * According to census from 2015, Altaic in etymology sections is allowed. Are there any new consensus decisions? And is there census about Nostratic etymology sections? --At Yaragi (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The community recently voted against including Altaic in general. Unless there is good reason to believe some Altaic/Nostratic connection would be likely (not just from one source, but more widely in the field), it could be considered, but otherwise there is no point. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 17:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I see. Well, this makes me realy sad. I was just working on Korean-Turkic loan relations for the stem "tor-" in the word bogatyr, sadly everything has been deleted. What can I do now? I wanted to use these two sources: 1 p.77, 2 page 220. --At Yaragi (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Is there any possibility to legitimize this action? This should be seen as an act of manipulation, and hence the voting turns out as unfair and dishonest. There should be a discussion on this. --At Yaragi (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not qualified enough to discuss whether those sources would be reliable enough, so I recommend you bring up the topic at WT:ES. As for the vote, the change was made by the very person who started the vote, and the change was made before the vote was started, so there was nothing wrong with it. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 19:06, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

But you have to admit that the voting was clearly biased. Many users did not even voted. This is very militaristic. --At Yaragi (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not like people can be forced to vote. — surjection ⟨?⟩ 19:13, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:palm


text:
Talk:bydraag

Requests for verification discussion
From bydraag at Requests for verification:

(moved from RFD)

Not a real Afrikaans word, proper singular is bydrae with plural bydraes. CeNobiteElf (talk) 12:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a case for RFV. Maybe it's attested in nonstandard usage or older texts. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:37, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What about as a verb, descended from Dutch ? 16:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it's a real word. CeNobiteElf, the requirement is just that people use it, not that it be considered 'correct'. I'll go cite the entry. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * CodeCat the verb is is bydra, bydraende, bygedra. Metaknowledge, I checked your quotations, you noticed all of them are quite old, right? I've personally never heard bydraag, I have only rarely heard bydrag (note the short a) in speech before, so it could be a potential case of colloquial vowel shortening which is common in common words such as ook, gaan, aan, etc. though how often does one use brydraag daily?
 * I just checked the WAT (Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal) though, bydraag is in there, but it's omitted in both the Pharos Afrikaans dictionary and the AWS (Afrikaanse Woordelys en Spelreëls) 2009 edition. Assuming you don't have acces to the WAT, here is the full entry of bydraag "bydraag s.nw., bydrae. Sien BYDRAE: Ons het nog nie jou bydraag ontvang nie. 'n Groter bydraag vir die vloot gee. 'n Bydragie vir 'n blad skrywe."
 * --CeNobiteElf (talk) 18:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call the 1980s "quite old", but yes, I could find nothing from this century. We can mark it as "dated". And no, I don't have access to die WAT (wish I did!) so thanks; that does confirm the validity of the entry, although per WT:ATTEST we rely on quotations, not other dictionaries. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:15, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Languages are big things, it's not a good idea to nominate entries for verification on the grounds 'you haven't heard of it'. Just in English I could nominate thousands of entries a day if I did that. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-passed. - -sche (discuss) 18:56, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:bydraag


text: じどう

title: じどう


text: ないよう

title: ないよう


text: やわらかい

title: やわらかい


text: 淋しい

title: 淋しい


text:
Talk:scatheness

Requests for verification discussion
From scatheness at Requests for verification:

"Harm; damage; injury; hurt; misfortune."

I see only scant mentions. DCDuring TALK 04:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Also spelled "scathness"? Anyway still not enough hits for inclusion- maybe someone can come up with more variant spellings. DTLHS (talk) 05:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

 * This is a modern Old English-based coinage used by . — Ungoliant (Falai) 10:44, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * But apparently not used, but only mentioned in Books. I guess there might be language purists Usenet groups that use it. DCDuring TALK 11:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Also note one cite on the citations page. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:scatheness


text:
постановка

Noun

 * 1)  staging, production
 * 2) performance, play
 * 3) raising, erection
 * 4) organization, arrangement, setting
 * 5) fitting, placement, insertion
 * 1) fitting, placement, insertion

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) setting, setting up
 * 2) formulation, posing, statement, stating
 * 3)  staging, performance, production
 * 4)  form, positioning
 * 1)  form, positioning

title: постановка


text:
Talk:krakozyabry

Requests for verification discussion
From krakozyabry at Requests for verification:

Can't find much of anything in English that uses this, let alone three good cites. (This is the only relevant GBook hit.) This, that and the other (talk) 08:30, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 19:01, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:krakozyabry


text:
ahąąh

Postposition

 * 1) side-by-side, abreast

title: ahąąh


text:
User:Prubini87

My name is Pedro Rubini. I was born in Florianópolis, Brazil, on April 19, 1987. I am a technologist in web design and computer programming. I am a foreign languages enthusiast. I am a son of God by adoption, through Jesus Christ.

title: User:Prubini87


text:
церковный

Etymology
From, with stress shift.

Adjective

 * 1)  church
 * 2) ecclesiastical
 * 1) ecclesiastical

title: церковный


text:
Talk:grow a pair

Requests for verification discussion
From grow a pair at Requests for verification:

Rfv-sense "To play fantasy football". Really? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if we find a cite in which "grow a pair" is referring to playing fantasy football, I would argue that it's assumed from context. --WikiTiki89 13:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We might be surprised: there might be some usage community that uses it this way. RfD should address the matter once we have some cites. DCDuring TALK 15:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's not get ahead of ourselves here; get some cites first, then decide what to do with them. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV failed. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 23:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:grow a pair


text:
備わる

Verb

 * 1) to be equipped with, to possess
 * 2) to be furnished with

title: 備わる


text:
Talk:שמידערן

Requests for verification discussion
From שמידערן at Requests for verification:

Tagged but not listed. - -sche (discuss) 18:39, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it is User:Angr who has a comprehensive Yiddish dictionary lying around. My only source for Yiddish citations is the internet, but I'll see what I can find. --WikiTiki89 20:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually have two goodly sized Yiddish dictionaries, but this verb isn't in either of them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 09:03, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:שמידערן


text:
そなわる

Verb

 * 1)  to be equipped with; to be furnished with

title: そなわる


text: xīnlǐ cèpíng

title: xīnlǐ cèpíng


text: jiēchù gǎnyìng

title: jiēchù gǎnyìng


text:
Talk:vegan butchery

Requests for verification discussion
From vegan butchery at Requests for verification:

I can only find this in a book published this year, or in reviews of it. Haplogy (話) 05:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Wrong plural. Poor definition. Protologism. Why is it still here? SemperBlotto (talk) 08:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Speedied. Haplogy (話) 16:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:vegan butchery


text:
Talk:malstrike

RFV discussion: November 2013–January 2014
Esperanto. Typo for malstrikte? Mr. Granger (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

 * RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 22:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:malstrike


text:
Talk:30 30 30

Requests for verification discussion
From 30 30 30 at Requests for verification:

This is part of a whole constellation of alternative forms and plurals that were all just added (Translingual and French, in addition to English). It's not easy to search, but so far I haven't found any durably-archived uses. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tried "a 30-30-30", "the 30-30-30", "30-30-30s" and "30-30-30" + reset in both Books and Groups, with nothing even close to the definition given. The only one that even has three groups of 30 refers to jumping-jacks, sit-ups and push-ups, not to time. It does seem to be in minimal use on the web (I might have speedied it, otherwise), but only in a very narrow context, and nothing that meets CFI. In fact, the term used with this definition seems to be "30 30 30 reset". No sign of anything other than English, Chuck Entz (talk) 07:14, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I can't find anything. Just delete all of it. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Deleted. - -sche (discuss) 22:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:30 30 30


text:
Citations:mondo bizarro

Noun: "the world of the surreal or bizarre"

 * 1980, Washington Post, 19 April 1980, c1/1:
 * It was just part of a week in which the news..went further and further into the realm of Mondo Bizarro.
 * 1995, Tom Pilkington, "A Twisted Family Feud", World & I, January 1995:
 * Like most of Goyen's fiction, the story is set in mondo bizarro and is an allegory of the kind of pinched, destructive moral code that hovers over East Texans like a poisonous fog.

Adjective: "(slang) extremely bizarre"

 * 1989, Mike Littwin, "Orioles Are Getting Good Luck and Bounces", Los Angeles Times, 25 April 1989:
 * When straight-shooting Cal Ripken suggests that life has grown a little mondo-bizarro around the old ballpark, it is time to take notice.
 * He claims that when Jackson became best friends with ‘Webster’ star Emmanuel Lewis.., they had an innocent, although mondo bizarro relationship.
 * 1998, Ed Bark, "South Park May Have Met Its Match", Sun-Sentinel, 19 August 1998:
 * Premiering tonight in tandem with the first of six new South Park episodes, it's an exceedingly strange, yet bracingly inventive series starring a freaky four-member comedy troupe. Very mondo bizarro. Sort of like featuring Marilyn Manson on a very special episode of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood.
 * 2000, Liz Langley, "The height of folly", Orlando Weekly, 5 February 2000:
 * The Bindlestiffs prove that even in the most mondo-bizarro town, it's worth it to seek out serious freakdom.
 * If you are a fan of mondo-bizarro programs such as ‘Survivor’ and ‘Big Brother’, you have another choice.
 * 2006, Martin Farkus, Blue Notes, AuthorHouse (2006), ISBN 1425923623, page 21:
 * The tape, I was told, was the most mondo-bizarro music in human history.
 * 2011, James Andrew Miller and Tom Shales, Those Guys Have All the Fun: Inside the World of ESPN, Little, Brown and Company (2011), ISBN 9780316125765, unnumbered page:
 * All very exciting—but nothing compared to the most gripping, most talked about, most mondo bizarro unscheduled event of the year, a kind of nonsanctioned NASCAR competition in which the cars moved at a mysteriously pokey, rush-hour rate.
 * 2012, Kabembo Chinku, Common Nonsense: The New "Golden" Age of Unreason: Chronicles of Dumb Statements and The Dumbasses (Mostly Politicians) Who Make Them, Xlibris (2012), ISBN 9781479708413, page 114:
 * But we are talking about two people who exist in a kind of mondo bizarro world where ignorance is a virtue.
 * 2012, Bill Missett, Soul Surfer Johnny Rips: Surfing the Edge of Reality ... in Puerto's Grinding Barrels, AuthorHouse (2012), ISBN 9781477268599, page 72:
 * There were only about a dozen folks present to see this rare display, and everyone agreed it had been one of Puerto's more mondo bizarro suddenly surreal Fellini moments.
 * 2013, Buzz Bissinger, "'Going to North Korea Was the Smartest Thing Dennis Rodman Has Ever Done'", Newsweek, 26 March 2013:
 * Rodman and the Vice film crew became the first known Americans to meet Kim [Jong-un] since he inherited power from his father.
 * It was completely mondo bizarro. Of course it was mondo bizarro. Maybe it was ill advised.
 * 2012, Kabembo Chinku, Common Nonsense: The New "Golden" Age of Unreason: Chronicles of Dumb Statements and The Dumbasses (Mostly Politicians) Who Make Them, Xlibris (2012), ISBN 9781479708413, page 114:
 * But we are talking about two people who exist in a kind of mondo bizarro world where ignorance is a virtue.
 * 2012, Bill Missett, Soul Surfer Johnny Rips: Surfing the Edge of Reality ... in Puerto's Grinding Barrels, AuthorHouse (2012), ISBN 9781477268599, page 72:
 * There were only about a dozen folks present to see this rare display, and everyone agreed it had been one of Puerto's more mondo bizarro suddenly surreal Fellini moments.
 * 2013, Buzz Bissinger, "'Going to North Korea Was the Smartest Thing Dennis Rodman Has Ever Done'", Newsweek, 26 March 2013:
 * Rodman and the Vice film crew became the first known Americans to meet Kim [Jong-un] since he inherited power from his father.
 * It was completely mondo bizarro. Of course it was mondo bizarro. Maybe it was ill advised.

title: Citations:mondo bizarro


text:
Talk:Paktika sector

RFV discussion: December 2013
From Paktika sector at Requests for verification:

All of these were added by the IP who's been adding all the divisions of India (and who seems to like putting political views into their definitions). —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 20:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing in Books or Groups Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete All as Sum of Parts. The place names are provinces, not sectors, and the word sector is even in the definitions. --Dmol (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Nothing in Books or Groups as worded, though the two are attested as individual entities Their rulers both attempted to join Pakistan at the same time but both states ended up in India. Otherwise, I'm not sure there's anything linking them that doesn't link them to other princely states in the area. Also, the description in the definition doesn't make sense: "Landlocked state within Kathiawar peninsula, on the Arabian Sea facing towards Pakistan". A "Landlocked state" isn't on the Arabian Sea, and only the north coast of the peninsula could be said to face Pakistan (even there, Kutch lies between it and Pakistan}. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Nothing in Books or Groups Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete All as Sum of Parts. The place names are provinces, not sectors, and the word sector is even in the definitions. --Dmol (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Nothing in Books or Groups Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete All as Sum of Parts. The place names are provinces, not sectors, and the word sector is even in the definitions. --Dmol (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * One occurence in Books and none in Groups Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete All as Sum of Parts. The place names are provinces, not sectors, and the word sector is even in the definitions. --Dmol (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Nothing in Books or Groups Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete All as Sum of Parts. The place names are provinces, not sectors, and the word sector is even in the definitions. --Dmol (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I already deleted one of these speedily as "no usable content given" since it was unattested and SOP and POV all at once. I'll delete the remainder shortly if there are no objections. - -sche (discuss) 22:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've speedily deleted all of the entries as unattested or nearly so, SOP, and POV. I've also blocked the user for a few days for their POV-pushing. (Technical note: someone who remembers how to perform a range block might want to do that.) - -sche (discuss) 22:44, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For rangeblocks there's a calculator that you can fiddle with to get the address you want; generally speaking the range of the block is dependent on the last block + slash + CIDR, like 192.168.1.0/20, but the trick is that the lower the number after the slash is, the bigger your range is, so you'll have to think in reverse. And if he's using IPv6, I'm not gonna bother calculating. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:12, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no problems with range blocks- not even for IPv6- but this person has only used 3 IPs (Special:Contributions/89.240.237.161,Special:Contributions/89.240.239.10 and Special:Contributions/80.47.17.213), one at a time, and, aside from half an hour of edits with their second IP, hasn't evaded any block. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

So anyone want to review all the IP edits made so far? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:12, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

 * The block having expired, the user is right back to POV edits, adding info on Pakistan's claims to Indian-held territory and removing info about other peoples' claims to Pakistani-held territory: [//en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa&diff=24535870&oldid=24480336]. - -sche (discuss) 23:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Not anymore. I blocked them again, with an expiry of 3 months. They had their chance to learn from the 3-day block, and escalated instead. No one else has ever used that IP on Wiktionary, and they've been using it continuously since December 4, so I'm not worried about collateral damage. Metaknowledge blocked their first IP for three months on September 1, so it's not like they had no clue this might happen. They did wait three months before they started editing again that time (September 6, notwithstanding), so maybe they'll observe this one for a similar period. Regardless, their edits stick out like a giant, flashing-neon sore thumb, so I'm not worried about their sneaking around the block with another IP. If they try, I'll do the range blocks myself. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:23, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, when I made the comment about rangeblocks, I was tired and in a rush and mixing up the fact that this user has used more than one IP with the fact that IPv6-havers often have lots of IPs readily available. In this case, the user has only used a few IPs, so blocking specific IPs when they are used should be sufficient. - -sche (discuss) 03:27, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Particularly for whenever this is archived, a note: see also WT:RFDO, which will presumably be archived to Category talk:en:Federally Administered Northern Areas. - -sche (discuss) 03:27, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Paktika sector


text:
Talk:Junagadh and Bantva Manavadar

RFV discussion: December 2013

 * See Talk:Paktika sector.

title: Talk:Junagadh and Bantva Manavadar


text:
Talk:Nangarhar sector

RFV discussion: December 2013

 * See Talk:Paktika sector.

title: Talk:Nangarhar sector


text:
Talk:Paktia sector

RFV discussion: December 2013

 * See Talk:Paktika sector.

title: Talk:Paktia sector


text:
Talk:Kunar sector

RFV discussion: December 2013

 * See Talk:Paktika sector.

title: Talk:Kunar sector


text:
Talk:Nuristan sector

RFV discussion: December 2013

 * See Talk:Paktika sector.

title: Talk:Nuristan sector


text:
φανερόω

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1) to make manifest
 * 2) to make known or famous
 * 3)  to become so
 * 1) to make known or famous
 * 2)  to become so
 * 1)  to become so

title: φανερόω


text:
Talk:Armenglish

Requests for verification discussion
From Armenglish at Requests for verification:

I can find one Usenet citation that I've added to Citations:Armenglish. That does seem to be it; nothing in books. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

 * It is apparently neologism, I don't think we can find citations in books. --Vacio (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Btw, can we use quotes from Twitter? --Vacio (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * AFAICT, no. Twitter is not durably archived. See WT:CFI for our criteria for inclusion. I don't think this word is citable. --Vahag (talk) 18:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Okay then, let's delete it. --Vacio (talk) 18:55, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

RFV failed --Vahag (talk) 19:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't fail something that fast. --WikiTiki89 20:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

 * I know, but the creator of the entry agreed. We can pretend that I speedy-deleted the entry. --Vahag (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Then we can consider it mistakenly created, but not RFV failed. Deleted as "created in error". --WikiTiki89 20:56, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Also note one cite on the citations page. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Armenglish


text:
kimsa chunka qanchisniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  thirty-seven

title: kimsa chunka qanchisniyuq


text:
chunka waranqa

Numeral

 * 1)  ten thousand

title: chunka waranqa


text:
pachak waranqa

Numeral

 * 1)  hundred thousand

title: pachak waranqa


text:
ἔμπροσθεν

Etymology
From.

Adverb

 * 1)  before, in front
 * 2)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old
 * 1)  before, earlier, of old

Preposition

 * 1) before

title: ἔμπροσθεν


text:
hunu

Numeral

 * 1)  million

title: hunu


text:
kimsa chunka pusaqniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  thirty-eight

title: kimsa chunka pusaqniyuq


text:
kimsa chunka isqunniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  thirty-nine

title: kimsa chunka isqunniyuq


text:
tawa chunka hukniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-one

title: tawa chunka hukniyuq


text:
tawa chunka iskayniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-two

title: tawa chunka iskayniyuq


text:
tawa chunka kimsayuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-three

title: tawa chunka kimsayuq


text:
tawa chunka tawayuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-four

title: tawa chunka tawayuq


text:
tawa chunka pichqayuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-five

title: tawa chunka pichqayuq


text:
tawa chunka suqtayuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-six

title: tawa chunka suqtayuq


text: broom-rape

title: broom-rape


text: broom-rapes

title: broom-rapes


text:
tawa chunka qanchisniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-seven

title: tawa chunka qanchisniyuq


text: mondo-bizarro

title: mondo-bizarro


text:
tawa chunka pusaqniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-eight

title: tawa chunka pusaqniyuq


text:
tawa chunka isqunniyuq

Numeral

 * 1)  forty-nine

title: tawa chunka isqunniyuq


text:
corcscriú

Etymology
From, a.

Noun

 * 1) corkscrew

title: corcscriú


text: corcscriúnna

title: corcscriúnna


text:
corc

Etymology
or back-formation from.

Noun

 * 1) worm name given to the larvae of various beetles and butterflies which live in and consume wood, grains, fruits, etc.
 * 2) cavity
 * 1) cavity

Etymology
Borrowed from.

Noun

 * 1) cork

Etymology
Borrowed from.

Noun

 * 1) cork (material)

title: corc


text:
User talk:Nicolas Perrault III

Chuck Entz (talk) 03:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nicolas Perrault III


text:
closed formula

Noun

 * 1)  A formula which has no free occurrences of variables; or equivalently, in which all occurrences of variables are bound.

Synonyms

 * ground formula

title: closed formula


text: tumšmatainākas

title: tumšmatainākas


text: tumšmatainākiem

title: tumšmatainākiem


text:
tumšmatainākās

Adjective

title: tumšmatainākās


text:
tumšmatainākos

Adjective

title: tumšmatainākos


text: tumšmatainākām

title: tumšmatainākām


text: tumšmatainākam

title: tumšmatainākam


text: tumšmatainākai

title: tumšmatainākai


text:
tumšmatainākais

Adjective

 * 1) the more dark-haired;

title: tumšmatainākais


text: tumšmataināko

title: tumšmataināko


text: Category:Quechua terms suffixed with -kuna


text: 干枯

title: 干枯


text:
乾枯

Verb

 * 1) to wither; to shrivel; to dry out

Adjective

 * 1) withered; shrivelled; dried out

title: 乾枯


text: tumšmatainākajam

title: tumšmatainākajam


text: tumšmatainākajām

title: tumšmatainākajām


text: tumšmatainākajā

title: tumšmatainākajā


text: tumšmatainākie

title: tumšmatainākie


text: tumšmatainākajiem

title: tumšmatainākajiem


text: tumšmatainākajai

title: tumšmatainākajai


text: tumšmatainākajos

title: tumšmatainākajos


text: tumšmatainākajās

title: tumšmatainākajās


text:
甘苦

Noun

 * 1) sweetness and bitterness
 * 2)  bittersweetness; ups and downs
 * 3)  hardship; difficulty

title: 甘苦


text:
vistumšmatainākais

Adjective

 * 1) the most dark-haired;

title: vistumšmatainākais


text: vistumšmataināko

title: vistumšmataināko


text: vistumšmatainākās

title: vistumšmatainākās


text: vistumšmatainākā

title: vistumšmatainākā


text: vistumšmatainākos

title: vistumšmatainākos


text: vistumšmatainākajam

title: vistumšmatainākajam


text: vistumšmatainākajām

title: vistumšmatainākajām


text: vistumšmatainākajā

title: vistumšmatainākajā


text: vistumšmatainākie

title: vistumšmatainākie


text: vistumšmatainākajiem

title: vistumšmatainākajiem


text: vistumšmatainākajai

title: vistumšmatainākajai


text: vistumšmatainākajos

title: vistumšmatainākajos


text: vistumšmatainākajās

title: vistumšmatainākajās


text:
vistumšmataināk

Adverb

 * 1) most dark-haired, most dark-haired-like, in a most dark-haired way;

title: vistumšmataināk


text: rudmatainu

title: rudmatainu


text: 钢盔

title: 钢盔


text:
鋼盔

Noun

 * 1) helm; military helmet

title: 鋼盔


text:
亜硝酸

Noun

 * 1)  nitrous acid

title: 亜硝酸


text:
亜酸化窒素

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) nitrous oxide

title: 亜酸化窒素


text: あさんかちっそ

title: あさんかちっそ


text:
あしょうさん

Noun

 * 1)  nitrous acid

title: あしょうさん


text: ashōsan

title: ashōsan


text: asanka chisso

title: asanka chisso


text:
ちっそ

Noun

 * 1)  nitrogen

title: ちっそ


text: chisso

title: chisso


text: tsuzuku

title: tsuzuku


text: dawn prayers

title: dawn prayers


text:
Template:Polemoniaceae Hypernyms

 * Polemoniaceae - family

title: Template:Polemoniaceae Hypernyms


text:
Template:Polemoniaceae Hypernyms/documentation

This is a typing shortcut intended for use under the Hypernyms header of taxa under Polemoniaceae. It can also be used with subst:.


text:
オーウェル

Proper noun

 * 1) Orwell

title: オーウェル


text: Ōweru

title: Ōweru


text: Stamme

title: Stamme


text: Bräutigamen

title: Bräutigamen


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 恵 read as けい


text: Gnad'

title: Gnad'


text:
achkachay

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  to abound, be abundant
 * 2)  to increase

title: achkachay


text: zieh aus

title: zieh aus


text:
allqucha

Etymology
From +.

Noun

 * 1) a puppy

title: allqucha


text:
apuchay

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  to honor, venerate

title: apuchay


text: Davides

title: Davides


text: Zhūgé

title: Zhūgé


text: Category:Quechua terms suffixed with -cha


text:
Talk:豆腐

RFV
@. I don't understand the request. The tone of the first character is preserved (yes, it's the 4th tone, see ), the tone of the second character is lost and has become neutral. This process is not referred to "tone sandhi", neutral tones may still affect preceding syllables, as in, pronounced as "náli" - the original tone of 里 affects the preceding syllable. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes I'm just learning about unstressed syllables. It seems even native speakers confuse it with tone sandhi. But apart from that I've found two sources that list the dictionary tones for this word as 4 3 rather than the 4 0 that we have. Baidu dictionary and the Taiwanese book "Chinese for Everyday Scenarios". English Wiktionary and Google Translate both state 4 0. I'm not sure what Google Translate's policy is but our policy is to list dictionary tones so this entry seems wrong now that I hopefully understand it a bit better. — hippietrail (talk) 08:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, the Zhuyin IMEs I've tried require you to use both tones for them to recognize that you're typing "tofu". They don't work if you leave out the tone of the second syllable or type tone 0/5. I must type "zj3" and not "zj" or "zj7" to get the second character. — hippietrail (talk) 09:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I understand your question now. 4-3 is not incorrect, it's just the Taiwanese standard. I've added it now. In Taiwan there are some differences with tones, they have much less neutral tones and much less erhua. I'm not sure what your issue with Zhuyin is but remember that 1st tone has no tone marker and the neutral tone marker is ˙, which, quite confusing can stand in front and at the back of a syllable, e.g. "ㄕㄜˊ ˙ㄇㄜ" or "ㄕㄜˊ ㄇㄜ˙" (we use the latter here), which is "shénmo" -, we only have "shénme" but "shénmo" is the Taiwanese standard. Our entries are more mainland-oriented, even if we have traditional characters, if a Taiwanese standard Pinyin is confirmed, it can be added as I just did - dòufu or dòufǔ (ㄉㄡˋ ㄈㄨ˙ or ㄉㄡˋ ㄈㄨˇ). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * dou4 fu3 is not Taiwanese standard. It is the pronunciation by a non-native Standard Chinese speaker, or by a dictionary which considers tonelessness as too Pekingese. Wyang (talk) 22:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. Taiwanese Mandarin is known to have (possibly exponentially) less neutral tones than mainland Chinese. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * What can be more "Taiwanese standard" than the Guoyu Dictionary by the Ministry of Education of Taiwan? Wyang (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * If "dòufǔ" (ㄉㄡˋ ㄈㄨˇ) is unattested, I'm happy to remove it. I wonder what resource was using. Is it a published dictionary? This dictionary also has "ㄉㄡˋ　˙ㄈㄨ", i.e. "dòufu" in Pinyin. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 * dòufǔ (4 3) is the only possibility listed by baidu, which should be very mainland oriented.
 * ㄉㄡˋ ㄈㄨˇ (4 3) is used in "Chinese for Everyday Scenarios" (Beginning Mandarin Chinese for Native English Speakers and Chinese Teachers) 978-986-6371-44-8
 * dòufǔ (4 3) is the only possibility listed be CEDICT, which should be bipartisan
 * dòufu (4 5) is the only transliteration given by Google Translate
 * dòufu (4 5) is the only possibility listed in "Oxford English-Chinese Chinese-English Minidictionary" 978-7-5600-4074-5
 * dòufu (4 5) is used in "Mandarin Chinese A Rough Guide Phrasebook" 1-85828-249-7
 * TL;DR - even less consensus or regional alignment than I expected! — hippietrail (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

 * 1) Baidu is not a reliable source. 2) "Chinese+for+Everyday+Scenarios" is not a reliable source either. 3) CEDICT lists dòufu. Wyang (talk) 04:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

 * I agree. CEDICT: "豆腐 豆腐 dòu fu tofu, bean curd". Google Translate fails on simple Pinyin, one must be careful. Try translating "west" - 西. It doesn't show the correct tone mark. Textbooks, unfortunately have errors. Dictionaries are more reliable. I recommend Pleco for mobile devices and Wenlin for desktops (Windows, Mac). I think I have rushed adding "dòufǔ". Tools automatically generating Pinyin from Hanzi may produce "dòufǔ". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

 * @, your link to Baidu controversies looks like a good one pointing out problems with the service, but your link to "Chinese for Everyday Scenarios" is just a Google search and doesn't seem to have anything about problems with the book. How did you reach the conclusion that it's not reliable? — hippietrail (talk) 12:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also not addressed are the Microsoft Zhuyin (phonetic) IMEs. Perhaps they always require "full tone" even for unstressed syllables. I've found that for "的" and "(包)子" I must type the key for tone 5, but for "(甚)麼" I must type the key for tone 3. I suppose "的" and "子" might always be tone 5 whereas "麼" is usually tone 3 except in "甚麼". If so this could explain away this case too. — hippietrail (talk) 13:02, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

 * It is a textbook "written for foreigners who come to Taiwan for work or travel", which is not a reliable source. Chinese-Chinese dictionaries are the most reliable in this regard. Wyang (talk) 22:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

@: Interestingly, the Taiwanese dictionary you linked to at http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/ includes "豆腐" with "腐" listed as both "˙ㄈㄨ" and "ㄈㄨˇ". Are these all compounds? Here are the ones with tone 3 for "腐" where "腐" is the final syllable:
 * 11 賣豆腐	ㄇㄞˋ　ㄉㄡˋ　ㄈㄨˇ
 * 22 刀切豆腐	ㄉㄠ　ㄑ｜ㄝ　ㄉㄡˋ　ㄈㄨˇ
 * — hippietrail (talk) 08:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

 * It's interesting that they used the 4th tone in two derived forms, when the base form and all other examples use neutral. It must be an error, don't you think? @, @, @. We are having fun here, what do you think? Should we allow dòufǔ as an alternative pronunciation? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 08:34, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

 * If anyone here is interested, I asked two questions touching this topic on the website chinese.stackexchange.com:
 * Zhuyin IME and tone 0/5 syllables
 * Is there a tone sandhi rule that “4 3” changes to “4 0”?
 * — hippietrail (talk) 10:29, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Yes, those two are errors. When a character has only one pronunciation, the dictionary probably assumes it has that pronunciation in all of its compounds. Deviations are manually corrected and those two for some reason failed to be recognised as exceptions.
 * Tonelessness-genesis has little relationship with the "tone sandhi" in your sense. It may occur in any tonal combination, and there are certain situations that tonelessness occurs more often, eg.:
 * Particles. 了 的 地 得 啊 啦 個 嗎 吧
 * Suffixes. 子 頭 巴 們 兒 什麼 結實
 * Reduplications. 媽媽 爺爺 娃娃 蛐蛐 看看 星星 謝謝
 * High frequency words, as a consequence of "minimum articulation effort". 太陽 頭髮 合同 打量
 * Especially ones hard to pronounce tonally (eg. having the same tone on consecutive syllables, as an example of ). 明白 先生 漂亮
 * Like suffixes, other "dummy syllables" or syllables not carrying as much meaning (as the previous one). i.e. First syllable is more synonymous with the compound than the second. 月亮 父親 女兒 耳朵 窗戶
 * For disambiguation purposes. 東西 地道 報酬
 * Others, for example loanwords or sound-related words. 蘿蔔 喇叭 囉嗦

 * Wyang (talk) 12:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

 * @ I've read your posts on Chinese stackexchange. It seems Zhuyin IME works quite differently from Pinyin IME. It has advantages and disadvantages. If you're forced to enter the correct (original!) tone, then you get less candidates and it can be easier to find the right hanzi but you don't have to know/remember the tones with Pinyin IME. Having to enter the 3rd tone for 腐 (ㄈㄨˇ) in 豆腐 doesn't actually mean that it's pronounced so in every position but typing ㄈㄨˇ gives you less variants to look through. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:豆腐


text: Category:Japanese terms spelled with 恩 read as おん


text:
pampachay

Quechua

 * Not to be confused with p'ampachay.

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  to level
 * 2)  to forgive, pardon
 * 3)  to cope (with problems)

Noun

 * 1) pardon
 * 2) remission

title: pampachay


text:
seahawk

Noun

 * 1) A rapacious gull-like bird of the genus.
 * 2) An osprey,.

Synonyms

 * ,, ; skua

title: seahawk


text:
p'ampachay

Quechua

 * Not to be confused with pampachay.

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1)  to bury

title: p'ampachay


text:
freakdom

Noun

 * 1) The state or quality of being freakish, strange, or bizarre.

title: freakdom


text:
Herbrand universe

Etymology
Named after (1908–1931), French mathematician.

Noun

 * 1)  The set of all ground terms that may be formed (even recursively) using any of the constants and functions which appear in a given set of formulae. (If there is no constant in that given set of formulae, then designate one default constant as being usable for the aforementioned purpose.)

title: Herbrand universe


text: rudmataina

title: rudmataina


text:
p'ampay

Verb

 * 1)  to bury

title: p'ampay


text:
p'ampa

Quechua

 * Not to be confused with pampa

Noun

 * 1) funeral
 * 2) burial

title: p'ampa


text: qù nǐ de

title: qù nǐ de


text: Category:Latin terms with homophones

title: Category:Latin terms with homophones


text:
Herbrand function

Etymology
Named after (1908–1931), French mathematician.

Noun

 * 1)  A function which replaces a variable bound by a universal quantifier which lies in the scope of an even number of logical negations; such function is a function of the remaining bound variables whose scope contain the given variable (being replaced).

title: Herbrand function


text:
Skolem function

Etymology
Named after (1887–1963), Norwegian mathematician.

Noun

 * 1)  A function which replaces a variable bound by an existential quantifier which lies in the scope of an even number of logical negations; such function is a function of the remaining bound variables whose scope contain the given variable (being replaced).

title: Skolem function


text: Category:Proto-Slavic terms with rare senses


text: Category:Albanian terms derived from Illyrian


text: Category:Terms derived from Illyrian

title: Category:Terms derived from Illyrian


text: biànbiàn

title: biànbiàn


text:
mom cave

Etymology
+, after the pattern of.

Noun

 * 1) A part of a home, typically a room, reserved specifically for a mother, in which she can relax and pursue her interests away from her family.

Synonyms

 * she shed

title: mom cave


text: mom caves

title: mom caves


text:
ch'iri

Noun

 * 1) ruffled or frizzy hair

title: ch'iri